20 Episode results for "Sarah Hill"

97 | Cortisol, Your Stress Response, and your Brain on Birth Control with Dr. Sarah Hill

Real Talk with Dana | Nutrition, Health

50:45 min | 2 years ago

97 | Cortisol, Your Stress Response, and your Brain on Birth Control with Dr. Sarah Hill

"Welcome back to the real talk with Dana podcast where we talk all things. Nutrition health fitness and mindset with a healthy side of sarcasm. I'm your host Dana Montes piece of real food with Sina nutritionists and body image coach teaching women how to heal their relationship with food and their bodies ditch the Diet cycle for good. And truly thrive thrive with real food one delicious meal at a time. Welcome back to the real talk doc. Latina podcast episode ninety seven. And we're digging into the science today so on today's episode. We have Dr Sarah Hill. Who is a research psychologist adjust and professor specializing in health relationships and other forms of social behavior through the Lens of evolutionary science? She's also the author of this. Is Your brain on birth control. Will which is the topic of today's discussion. So we're GONNA be talking about how birth control not only changes. How your hormones working your whole body but how it changes who you are as a person how it also changes your brain and your stress response in major ways and why this matters so one of my major takeaways from Dr Dr Sarah's book and today's podcast women on the pill are missing a key feature of their stress response so we are discussing how this impacts things like adrenal fatigue? Because I know you guys are super into that as I am to how it impacts learning and memory and anxiety and depression and interestingly enough despite what you might be thinking this is not actually a scare tactic book to freak you out from taking any kind of hormonal birth control instead. It's really a book. That's designed to empower you with the tools to understand how this medication actually works in your body what it can do to your body how to understand those changes and then how to make a decision on the best path breath of action depending on your unique little snowflakes so your health history your genetics and your current life stage wanted to keep the intro a little short and sweet for you guys is today so without any further ado here comes my interview with Dr Sarah Hill. Well Dr Sarah Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Tell the listeners. Why you wanted it to write a book called? This is your brain on birth control. I was on the Pill for more than a decade of my life and uh-huh and you know when I went off I started to feel really different. I felt sort of like I woke up and from like going from through one dimensional. You know sort of flat Experience to like being in like three dimensional color form and Is it that was the first thing that got me really thinking about the pill and what it might be doing to the brain but the the real tipping point when I knew that I had to write. This book was When I was in a research chalk where A researcher was giving giving a presentation on some things that he had done. looking at the effects of Early life stressful experiences on The magnitude of the Stress Stress Response. and which doesn't sound like has anything to do with control but he was giving his presentation and he had mentioned when he he was talking about the data collection and looking at the results that That they only analyze the data from the men in their sample Because it turned out that ninety percent of the women who were in the study were on the birth control pill and wouldn't you know it women on the birth control pill have no cortisol response response to stress and I was sort of. Its restocked me awake when I heard this brain exploited a little bit. Well it's funny. Because he mentioned at the researcher mentioned in this like offhand. I mean it was. Just you know sort of this methodological like footnote before he went into the results but it was like that was like think about like wait like let's talk about that like like backup like on no more no more about that and so okay I am a God like think about the rest of the time that he was talking and after his presentation I went up and talked to him. I said tell me about Out what was going on with these women on the birth control pill like why are they not having A release of the stress Hormone Cortisol when they're feeling Stressed out and he said Oh. You know it's interesting because we didn't. We found that to be true the women so we went to the literature and we find out that That everybody finds finds this that everybody finds that women on birth control pills have no cortisol response to stress and I was just shocked by this because you know it's like when you think about the birth control pill You know we know that influenced the sex hormones and so some of the things that I sort of subsequently you you know uncovered in terms of the way that the birth control pill influences. What women's brains are doing and and their behavior and everything else Made Sense to me but this this did not make sense to me at all that the birth control pill would be influencing stress hormones as well in this was when I went to the research hurts literature and really began to dive into like. What do we know and not know About the birth control pill in the way that influences you know the different sort of brain hormone axes in the body and You know the different neurotransmitter systems in the brain and the women's experiences experiences in the world and so that was really the tipping point. When I knew that I had to get this information out there? I'm to women because this is like released. It was really surprising to me as a psychologist who is on birth control pills for more than a decade. So I figured I don't know about this Chances are most other women. I don't know about this either and so I felt like I wanted to really Get this information into the hands of women. I'm not to scare them because I don't think that there's anything in the book book that's GonNa Crichton women and it's certainly not my intention to frighten women off the pill I'm but rather just give them You know an idea of what actually goes on at the pills. So that way they can better her under their own experiences and And make decisions about their health sort of knowing what the different trade offs are that they're making on whether they're on or off the the birth control pill. Yeah exactly and it's so surprising that when you are talking to the presenter after the presentation he just kind of said this in like a blase away like oh yeah like everybody knows that. Why is no one talking about this? You know crazy. especially with like the extreme hyper focus in the past. Say Ten years on like adrenal fatigue and everyone freaking out about that like crazy so we know that many people if not most that have the symptoms of adrenal fatigue or adrenal dysfunction are women wonder what the correlation is between that and Birth Control Hill. Nuts yet I know and do you know that I don't know L. of any systematic study. That is looked at that. The the the thing with You know the fact that researchers find with the birth control Oh pill And the stress response you know. In in adrenal fatigue a lot of it has been sort of dot its been found Sir incidentally when researchers are studying something else so for example you know the effects of Exercise daily exercise on the ED magnitude of the stress response in response to stress in the lab and the researchers will have people in and they'll have them exercise not exercise you know than measure stress and all these other things and then they'll notice that. Oh yeah this. Subgroup woman has no response was just like this footnote and it's only only very because this little footnote has been made in research now for almost thirty years and is only very recently that researchers have begun to release systematically traumatic tried to study. Like what is it that is going on and In in there's really is not a good answer yet. There you know. It appears that Something is going on with women's. HPAS's HP access the hypoth- Pituitary axis which is a horrible thing. Which is why we call it the HP a access this is the brain Stress Hormone access so so this is part of the brain and body sort of communication system. That is responsible for the release of the stress Hormone Cortisol and and It seems that least based on putting all the pieces together The research that is out there the going on the birth control pill actually causes causes women's Stress Hormone access to go into overdrive. And that what's going on in that. The reason that we're getting adrenal fatigue in Politicking women is because there is is the. HP is shutting itself down because it's going into overdrive in the body does not allow your your Your HP access to be engaged for too long because it's so bad for the rest of the body that it will shut it down and that's why you get adrenal fatigue for example in the context of like post traumatic stress or childhood trauma Because the these people's bodies are just shutting down the stress response wants to prevent all the long term damage that can occur when your foot's constantly on the gas pedal cortisol and now we also are seeing this in women who we're on a women or on the birth control. Paul yes so the body is kind of like creating this cortisol resistance response to damper the what it could be very damaging effects of continually high. Cortisol right yeah yeah exactly because Cortisol Cortisol does is You know it actually takes takes resources away from things like basic bodily functioning so like cell repair and like immune functioning and it uses that energy it reallocates at energy into managing stress in in in so the reason that having cortisol like put on the gas pedal of Cortisol is so bad and when it goes on for a long time is because the body just isn't able to invest in its normal day to day activities and so and that's why the body just shuts shuts it down because or else the body is unable to do things like repair cells and like keep itself from getting sick in all these other things in in. So that's why the body does that in fact Ed I don't know if you've ever read why zebras. Don't get ulcers the Robert Supposed Yearbook so amazing. It's like such an amazing book and he so funny any so it's a really. It's funny smart. But he actually talks about You Know Pacific Salmon you know how they swim upstream and then lay either And then their bodies just totally fall apart. I'm the thing that makes her body totally fall apart is I'm as cortisol in if you actually Because their stress response goes goes into full gear when they're swimming upstream and if you actually remove their adrenal glands on the salmon survive after they spawn Again that just like goes to show you like what cortisol does cortisol just takes all the resources that You know just for basic bodily integrity types of issues like repairing your cells Growth at maintaining your immune system And in it directs them all toward doing whatever the important activity is like whether it's running from bear swimming upstream to spawn and And so with you know birth control pill taking women. It appears that something's happening with the birth control pill. I'm and we can kind of speculate about what might be going on there. That's causing their cortisol response to go Kuku crazy and so the body's just shutting it down because that's what sort of prevents us from succumbing to a state like Pacific Salmon. You know like like totally falling apart. Yeah so so then. To use a fish analogy What are what are kind of the downstream effects of having having this totally jacked up cortisol response in women that are taking the birth control pill in terms of things like learning memory and anxiety and depression? So there's there's research indicating that having having this This lack of cortisol response or having like you know what what looks a lot like. ADRENAL fatigue is associated with problems deficits with learning and memory In particular with emotional memories. I'm wanting the thing that we know that cortisol does. Is it sort of prime the brain for learning and in so when you don't have a cortisol cortisol response in response to stressors Researchers have proposed that put. It's possible that this might cause issues with learning and memory in taking women In there's been research evidence now suggesting that that's the case I'm and this is especially the case with memories that are sort of emotionally stanley balanced. So things you know like if you're afraid or you're really excited a really happy to think like your wedding day the birth of a child You know getting a promotion. There's really some good things Christmas morning right or a bad things. Like something terrible happening Normally our brain in like grabs onto those things when we have emotions going on at the same time as Events those events tend to get special treatment in terms of being encoded as memories into our brain and cortisol plays a role in that and And there's been research indicating that women were on the birth control pill seemed to have ABC deficits in emotional related memories in that they aren't their brains aren't grabbing onto emotionally balanced bent events and and Sort of giving them preferential treatment in terms of Storage in the brain and this is something that potentially can cause issues issues for women in lots of different ways including you know some women report having kind of brain fog and that they don't feel like they're quite as sharp as they feel when they're off of the birth control pill on when they're on it and so this is potentially possible for those types of feelings it's also potentially associated with feelings of sort of you know the low level Blah's in sadness and in this in part because you know part of how we create the experience of being who we are in feeling like her life is meaningful is through this experience of our brain grabbing onto you sort of emotionally colored events right Filter putting them into our brain and sort of absorbing our experiences around us so when women are sort of having a deficit these pull taking women having a deficit in this I think that this could potentially be contributing to some of the feelings of Depression that we now know Can Be linked with birth control pill use so this Playing playing one contributing role. There's some other things that go on with different neurotransmitter systems in the brain and there are also known to be related to anxiety and depression that we sometimes see in women who are on the birth control pill but There's little doubt in my mind that the the blunted cortisol response to stress. Also part of this part of this larger issue definitely so we've kind of jumped right into it And I want to backtrack a a little bit And talk big picture level like what are hormones and why are they so important yet so under appreciated in the sense of of talking about how the pill changes women completely when they're on it. Yeah no this is such a great question because I think that we all take a little bit of a blind spot when it comes to hormones and like how important they are and what they do and I say this not as somebody who's like pointing out other people but also even at myself You know I'M A. I'm a psychologist and spent my career studying on the influence of different types of biological factors on You know the way that people especially women women have been my area my focus area research Women's think feel and experience the world And you know I was on the birth control pill for again in more than a decade. Never really I never put two and two together thinking that My sex hormones ramone's would be influencing what my brain was doing despite the fact that I regularly was reading and sometimes even conducting research looking at how sex hormones influence the brain rain. You'll never put two together with my with my pills so sex hormones. We tend to think about them. Usually usually in the context of things like pregnancy or puberty Or you know our periods and so we tend to think about them only it sort of Like their role that they play in terms of Some of these things that are sort of almost like outside us right like oh well you know I you know my pregnancy hormones are doing this and so I feel this way or I feel that way but but but our hormones mission to doing some of the things that we tend to think about in terms of maintaining pregnancies dictating our endometrial lining. Every you you know month and being responsible for Embarrassing Hair growth during puberty all these other things Hormones the really key part of the signaling architecture that our brain uses to create the experience of being the person that we are You know the the like the mind is a product of what the brain is doing in the brain like creates these experiences of being who we are withdrew and the activities of things like neurotransmitters Which of course were very familiar with these are the main Sort of signaling rolling molecules of the brain but also through our hormones are hormones are a communication system that our body uses to You know basically get the whole body on the same page about whatever sort of a challenge is trying to solve And you know and there's receptors. I were hormones on cells all over the place in our body and whenever the hormone is present it means that those cells do different things than they would be doing doing the absence of the presence of those hormones And in terms of parts of the body that have more receptors for sex hormones than any other. The brain is where it's at. Our brain is wired for hormonal influence. It's there's hormone receptors. All all over the place especially sex hormone receptors in part this is just because of the whole process of evolution by selection. That designed us we have inherited traits that allowed our ancestors to successfully survive and reproduce Because of this sex of course plays a really important roll on in that process and so you know there are very few areas of the brain. That aren't wired like to have a sex hormone receptors because our brain is wired for sex And so when you change a woman sex hormones which is what we're doing when you put women on the birth control pill it's not just influencing what her ovaries and what her uterus are doing. It's influencing all cells in her body that have receptors for sex hormones and again there's a ton of these in the brain and in fact The way that the birth control pill works and actually it's main mechanism of Actions Main target of action is is the brain and because the birth control pill works by shutting down ovulations of preventing the release of an egg every month. But the way that that happens isn't directly By influencing the activities of the ovaries it's actually influencing the activities of the brain gene which releases these precursor hormones that then stimulate the ovaries to begin EG development which then leads to the the release of an ah every month and so the actual mechanism of shutting down ovulation primarily occurs by changing the brain is doing. But again you know there's there's hormone receptors all over the place in the brain not just in the parts of the brain that are responsible for talking to the ovaries About about whether or not to return turn egg. There's you know they're all over the place and so you know having that sort of paradigm shift Is You know I think really important because they think that you know because we tend to sort of externalize our hormones and and think about them just in terms of their role you know in things like endometrial the Mitchell lining development and that sort of thing. I think we've been very cavalier about the birth control pill I'm giving it to women as being the first line of Defense and everything ranging. I'm from you know having too many breakouts to having uncomfortable periods And you know part of what I wanted to do with this book was just like give everybody the paradigm shift in like remind everybody about information at the either for God or just never learned because unfortunately you know a the way that things all right now in our country with education like you have to get an advanced degree to learn how your body works which I think is crazy anyway but is just like really understanding By changing women's sex hormones changes women And because of this you know we it's up to us to understand how it is that changes women right and then You know allowing women to be able to make decisions about whether or not the trade offs that they're making when they go on the birth control pill makes sense given their goals because for some women especially women who are seeking to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy. I'm at times in their life when a pregnancy would be extremely costly. I think you know the birth control pills. It makes a lot of sense. It's like one one of the best things we've got right now but for other things You know just having an uncomfortable periods or that sort of thing Women Might WanNa have a they might WanNa think twice about it just because again. I think we've been really cavalier treatment of of women sex hormones without really thinking about the fact that when we do this we're changing who women are in so. I think that it's time that women learn about how their are you know their brain changes On the birth control pills so that way they can make these decisions Knowing exactly what the trade offs are that they're making right and I really appreciated reading the book going through and just the kind of philosophy that you took towards approaching and presenting this. This information is like. It's not a scare tactic book. Despite what people might think from the title which totally reminded me of taking dare in elementary school like this is your brain on drugs. You know kind of thing that was like Oh this is going to be fun but again. It's not a scare tactic book. It's not like these are all the horrible. It's basically it's not like going to web. MD where you put any symptom and it's like. Oh you have a brain tumor and you're going to talk you know it's it's not like that it's more. This is a very neutral neutral approach to the information. So now you have the power basically back in your hands you can understand what the birth control pill is doing to your hormones is doing to you as a person and then you also have to take into consideration like okay. Well where are you in your life right now. And how is this going to affect me you know. What do I really WanNa make sure that? I'm not going to have a child right now because I'm not equipped to do that. Then okay maybe even given all this information that you're presenting the book maybe it's still a good idea but now at least you're equipped with the information of knowing. Okay here's what is happening to my body and then here a couple of steps that I can do to kind of either mitigate gate that or at least know what's going on right exactly. I mean these are the conversations that women have been having with each other since the pill came around sixty years ago. Women have been talking talking about sort of how it makes them feel experience like psychologically And is just until now you know women haven't been given a language edge to understand what's going on in their in their bodies in their in their brains You know instead you know women's doctors Who you know mostly is Lee are well meaning because they're not you know they're not a entrenched in the literature the research literature and Psychology Neuroscience Dance You know the only sort of access the only information that they generally are reading about with the birth control pill You know and Women's psychological experiences are like depression. I'm so you know quote unquote mood changes. But a lot of what women experience when they're on the pill goes far beyond like mood. Changes in so a lot of this is just really giving women an opportunity to understand themselves and what's going on with them. I and I think a lot of women will find that You know like like you were saying that. Depend if they're at a point in their lives when Pregnancy prevention is super important And you know the end of an unexpected pregnancy would be devastating and the birth control pills probably still make sense for a lot of these is women but now the finally understand what's happening and why they're feeling the way that they're killing because again these things aren't terrible you're going to grow a tail right and yeah you know yeah and get like you know cancer and all these scary things instead. It's just like hey is probably gonNA experience the world a little bit differently only and now you can finally understand it and you have a language that you can use to talk to your doctor about what it is that you're experiencing and also you you don't like the birth control pill that you're on because you think that you were experiencing some of these things that I discussed in the book to also try a different formula before giving up ball together because the one thing that we know about where the state of research is right now is that you know. There's not really good research looking at the different formulations of the birth control pill and how they might differ in terms of any wannabe psychological outcomes that I discussed. And and chances are there's going to be differences because the hormonal structure of the different types predestines which are the artificial progesterone that are in the different different types of birth control pills that are out there the molecular structure is somewhat different Of some of these different PROGESTIN 's and you you know therefore given that the structure is different. They're going to be stimulating. Different hormone receptors and that means that the experiences that they create in terms of the brain rain in the rest of the body is going to be a little bit different and and so I urge women Who wants to be on the birth control pill to also you know to use? This book is a way of understanding. You know okay. Well this if I if I think this is what's going on and I and I'm not happy with it. I'm giving them the information. That's that's necessary to be able to go to their doctor and say this is what I'm on. It uses this type of Progestin. It's not agreeing with me. Can we try this one. That has this other type of Justin. Listen in see if that's going to make me feel more at home in my own body so it's really about just giving women the information that they need to Best strategize is on their birth control pill use and then if they're you know if they do choose To be on the birth control pill to be able to sort of troubleshoot what their different options are right and I also thought it was really interesting how you spoke about in the book that many people who take the pill are taking it for a targeted effect as we've said whether it's like because you have breakouts or acne or painful periods or just not to have babies but then you also say that targeted effects aren't possible when you're taking a hormone you might get the desired effect but not the effects as they are targeted. So could you talk more about that young. Yeah no absolutely yeah and this is a really important point right in In it's important because there's also some misinformation out there and you know so women take the birth control pill for targeted effect. And we do this with any medication. You take it because you're trying to decrease the symptoms of Xyz Birth Control Pill you might be taking to prevent pregnancy Or to clear up your skin or to regulate your cycle or decrease menstrual cramping But when you take a medication In particularly when you take medication the birth control pill which influences hormone You know your hormonal profile. It's absolutely not possible to have a targeted fact like there's no way that you can take a hormonal Mona contraceptive No matter where you put it in your body whether getting shot using a patch using a vaginal ring using the hormonal I you d Those hormones once they're in your body they all go to the same place And the thing is in the book in the and that place is everywhere. The places everywhere. Blood travels Because that's how hormones work there there you can think of hormones is being like the bodies broadcast. PA system right. It's like they're like a loudspeaker they get Once they're in the body they go into the bloodstream and what they do they go every place that blood travels. And then if there's a hormone receptor cell in that area of the body it's GonNa get picked up in red. I'm it's GonNa Change what the cells are doing in that part of the body. And so you can't you know in you can't use for example a hormonal iud and then only habit acting locally on The ovaries which by the way a number of women. I can't even tell you the number of women that I've spoken with Who've had the experience in having their doctors tell them that either the hormonal IUD or the vaginal ring that died dot? They wouldn't have as many you know quote unquote side effects Because they're acting locally. That's before what I mean. It's just like it's like basic physiology. It just doesn't work that way. It absolutely doesn't work that way. The the hormones will travel everywhere. That blood goes in the mechanism for action. Action again with hormonal. Contraceptives is the brain. Because it's telling the hypothalamus. which is the part of the brain that regulates our menstrual cycles? It's telling the hypothalamus like Hey There isn't you know well the message. Sending is sort of similar to the hormonal message that our body gets during the second half or the Ludi phase of the menstrual cycle which is having a relatively high level of progesterone relative to estrogen the birth control. Pill we'll works by administering these synthetic progestin at a level that's higher than estrogen. So that gets read by the hypothalamus Thomas as like. Oh there's an egg that has been released and we're just waiting to see whether or not we're pregnant right now and when the brain gets that message it doesn't stimulate the ovaries to release a new egg. 'cause they're waiting and seeing you know to see whether or not this egg that was just released is going to get fertilized and so when you take the birth control pill and you get this study does of hormones. That's the message that your brain is receiving like don't stimulate ovulation because there's an egg that's out there or that. Were waiting to see what happens with And so that the mechanism of action for the pill in terms of shutting down ovulation. Is The hypothalamus in the brain. And so the I dea that somehow by some magical process right If you use a vaginal ring or a hormonal. Ud that the messages his own being read by the ovaries or the Or the uterus is absurd and because that's just not how hormones work I mean like. I said they're the broadcast. PA VA system. There are like radio you know like once they're in the body are everywhere. You can't You know you can't you can't target those facts in this means means that you know when we take the birth control pill we need to be aware of the fact that it's going to be influencing every single one of our body systems that are influenced by sex sex hormones and the thing that women you know we don't spend a lot of time thinking about but it's actually it's it's what makes us so amazing Is that So many systems in our body like I can't think of one off the top of my head that isn't sensitive to different levels sales of sex hormones and the reason for this is because almost every system in our body has required a work around for pregnancy like for example our circulatory system when we're pregnant has to do a whole host of different things in a dozen were not pregnant. Our immune system has to do a whole host of different things more report and compared to or not pregnant our digestive system. I mean I could go on an honor circulatory lobby Blah right and because of this so many of our body systems. Those are sensitive to levels of sex hormones because they had to have been. It's like our body is able to do all of the amazing things that it can do. I'm including like creating creating people pretty awesome. You know I'm pretty awesome thing to be able to do but it also means that. A most of our bodies systems are sensitive. Ah levels of sex hormones and so when you're changing a woman's profile of sex hormones like we do with the birth control pill I mean it's just has absolutely pervasive effects on the body and they're not like all horrible and scary. It's not like that. It's not like making somebody so different that they don't recognize themselves themselves at all But it does change women in so we need to get. We need to take it seriously right which is so crazy. Going back to what you said before is like we shouldn't have to attain an advanced degree in order to understand our bodies but if someone doesn't have an advanced degree in human physiology or nutrition or anything like this and then they go to their OBGYN and they say okay. Well if you get you know the copper IUD or if you get the hormonal monae ud or the vaginal ring any of these things. It's better because it's localized to your uterus. And you're not going to experience as many side effects. The people take that at face value. Because if you're going to your doctor and your doctor says one thing why would I not believe this. You know it's so tough. Yeah it is so tough I I just think that it's I think it's a I think. A tragedy I mean I think this is like a different soapbox Is related to them. Look but it's also. I know that it's something that you're very passionate about two. It's like I don't think it's like our in our country. We have so many people who are so sick you know. And and and and they're they're not healthy and You know in there because you're not eating right and not like I don't know how to care for our bodies because we're taught absolutely nothing about how they work and because of this is like we're rely we have to rely on. The pharmaceutical company is right to be telling us how to take care of our bodies as because we don't understand basic You know sort of physiological processes in the body and I say this from an absolute position -sition privilege because I haven't you know appeal and I was able to learn all these nets terrible that this isn't like basic education. I mean I think and one of the things I'm very passionate about is educating people about the design of the body in the design of the mind cause I think when we understand how we work we take better care of ourselves and I think that it's not that we don't teach this stuff you know like basic nutrition basic physiology how the brain communicates indicates with itself and the rest of the body To people starting really early mccamley swap out some of those history from those history classes or something or visit. I mean I don't know but I I really think that we would all be so much like it would improve our wellbeing and improve our health all so much if we just were taught how we work and why we work that way so that way we were able to make more informed sort of thoughtful decisions about what is that we're doing with our bodies yeah definitely There's definitely some space in there to move things around. I don't know about you but from probably primary school all the way through high school every single year. We had American history to the point where you could probably recite the things that we he had been taught because we were taught the same thing so many times over. It's like okay. We understand that history is important and we need to talk about all these things but at the same time. We're talking about the same thing so many times that. Why don't we just insert one of these glasses there so we can take things that are going to be more pertinent to our everyday lives and taking taking care of ourselves in our health then just these kind of abstract ideas that we're learning about continuously? Yeah I know right like I totally get the whole the thing about you know if you don't learn history than you'll repeat it or whatever but totally trunk eight that into a much shorter sequence than what it is and make room for some dislike basic education on basic health education. Like how you work. How your brain works? How systems work so that way we can become released smart consumers You know an MBA. Able to take maximal care of our bodies because I do really You know I didn't learn about even how my menstrual cycle worked. And and the way that you know my hormones changed over the cycle and that it was really only fertile. Oh for maybe five days during the summer. I didn't learn any of this. I'm in the role that the different sex hormones that have play in terms of my psychological functioning and how I think how I I feel like what I do. How attractive to men all these other things? I didn't learn about any of this stuff until I was in graduate school. I was just GonNa say I don't think I did either until I was in Grad School. uh-huh yeah and so I really Part of the book in since since you know you read it you know like the you know the first couple. Ebola chapters of the book are just really introducing women to the way that their bodies in their hormones work to create the experiences of being who they are in trying to bridge back gap in give Because I think all women should have this information about about how they work. Because I think that if you don't have that it it does make it difficult for you to really make informed decisions about about what to do. You're at the mercy of your doctor to be telling you what you should be doing without having all of the without having all the facts and so I really wanted to get this information out to women and So that way they're able to be in control and be somebody who's like a co-pilot in along with their doctor in decisions about what they're going to be doing for fertility regulation because right now women are you know more or less at the mercy of what their doctors telling them and if their doctor is an informed about in particular the psychological affects the pill. Women just have to you know. Listen to what their doctors is telling them and not be able to even explain what's happening inning with themselves right. And then what makes this even more complicated is that. The pill is not one-size-fits-all like no form of birth control is one-size-fits-all and I really liked how you gave a lot of different examples in the book of how one pill or method of birth control can affect people in many any different ways so like the one that you were taking for a really long time. was you know until you kind of have this awakening. It seemed pretty fine. You know like no huge extreme side effects or anything thing but then when your friend went on she basically had like psychotic trip. Yeah Yeah and and that's exactly I mean that's the thing right. Is that Hormones Jones because they influence every cell in your body that has receptors for those hormones. When you take it it's like a flip a billion switches on and off in your body body And each one of us because our body chemistry is different. The number of hormone receptors that we have different on the Hor- our existing hormonal profiles vials different or neurotransmitters is there's so many ways that we differ from one another and the science isn't in a good place yet where we can make good predictions about which which individual women are going to respond which way to which formulation of the birth control pill and because of this when you go on the pill because it's switching a billion in different switches on and off throughout your body And the way that those which is get flipped is a little bit idiosyncratic from person to person You really have to to become an expert in your own experiences. Entrust your own experiences and know that even if they aren't written on on the you know the prescription label that that they're real for you and yet one of the examples. They gave him the book to illustrate. Just how radio syncretic this whole process of finding the right birth control pill is is on the pill that I was on After I had my after I had my son And I loved it was great I felt I felt you know like I said when I went off of it I felt more alive and more vibrant and everything else but I had no problem along with this pill that I was on in In it didn't affect my moods negatively or anything else But a good friend of mine went on the same pill And and she had a psychotic episode. She ended up in the emergency room because she was asking people if she could cut them open to see if they were real because she thought everybody was an imposter. I mean it was really crazy. Thing that happened and The doctors actors in the Er couldn't figure out what the problem was and so finally. They just told her because she had just started this new he'll regiment and the doctor was like I don't think it's your breath Nicole Talbot. Why didn't you stop taking it? And just see what happens and then sure enough. She returned back to normal and she did a little bit of research and it turned and out that this experience has been had by a number of women on this same hill. And so there's something. Yeah so there's something about this pill hill And these women's body chemistry. That just doesn't agree with themselves in his polly this way with every single pill formulation elation out there and it's because again you know when you have a billion switches being flipped on and off throughout your body in a very non targeted way in each each one of us has a unique body chemistry. And all this other thing. You'RE GONNA get some weird responses on because there are so many systems that are influenced at the same time and and so each one of us in addition to I'm sort of you know it being wise to really educate ourselves in terms of knowing what to look out for when it comes to the birth. The control panel on is just becoming an expert in your own responses and so one of the things that I urge women to do in the book is really. It's a keep a journal on on you know a a powder feeling in these different areas of influence that we know that the birth control pilkin effect in just keep keep tabs on themselves and make sure that what. They're feeling the way that they want to be feeling And also to talk to you know especially if they're starting a new birth control pill is to tell a friend or a partner. Tele family member So that way their friend or family member or partner can help keep tabs on them. Because is a lot of times when we're experiencing psychological changes our brain because it doesn't like to believe you know like our mind doesn't like to believe that it's price I tr- of what our brain is doing is like and it doesn't like to believe that it's inconsistent in how it's feeling like we'll work feeling certain way EH Like let's say that we start to feel depressed or overly anxious we don't generally think like Oh Gee it's the hormones that I'm taking that are are doing this because it feels real right and it feels like real real objectively real and so we tend to think that our life is just getting worse. Most people bull when they experience depression anxiety. Don't self diagnose oh I depression anxiety instead they self diagnosed like my life sucks thanks My job is overwhelming You know I have too much on my plate. So we tend to externalize You know mental health problems in as that can delay our ability to to solve the problem in so I I really urge women As they're either transitioning being from one pill onto a new pill transitioning on to the birth control pill or even transitioning off of it because some women are mentally healthier on the birth control pill compared to off of it and I talk about that in the book too because there is some research indicating that women in particular who have pnd or severe pms that the birth control pill can really be a godsend in terms of actually stabilizing their mood and promoting their wellbeing. I'm in so whenever people are making changes in their hormones whether it's switching pills going on it or going off of it It tell a friend and in journal in in keep track of how you're doing because you know each each one of US deserves to be mentally healthy and in being mentally healthy means that when things are going well in our life we should feel happy in vibrant and more days than we feel sad in a minute. We're not feeling those things then it's time to to think about trying potentially trying a new pill Or you know trying to go or just figuring out some other sort of strategies for improving wellbeing. Yes I love of. It will thank you so much for sharing all this today. I know I was completely riveted and can't wait till they go back and look at different sections in the book that we talked about But provided this also resonated with a lot of the listeners. Today please tell them where they can find you where they can find the book all the things. Yes absolutely so so I hope you find the book on Amazon Or anywhere that books are sold. You can get an indie bound or burns noble And the title is this. Is Your brain on birth control on the surprising science of Women Hormones in the law of unintended consequences and again not a scary book and Informative Book. Edgy can connect with me. Online by website is Sarah with an age. So as a R A H Sara e Hill Dot Com and. I'm also on instagram. Twitter and Facebook in my username is Sarah. E Hill Ph hd And so that's my handle on all platforms and pretty active on all of them but probably mostly on instagram. And Pretty soon soon. We're GONNA be starting doing women's health Wednesday's Rumney be doing a instagram live on Wednesdays to talk about The sort of latest just in women's health research and so I'm looking forward to starting that in December oh awesome. That'll be so cool. While all make sure to leg all of that in the show notes so everybody can find you so thank you so much again for coming on you being so much for having me. Thanks for listening to Real Talk With Dana. If you enjoy the episode please share it with your family and friends and share the love by throwing us a five star rating in review on itunes which will help spread the word and small part correct all of the fitness and nutrition misinformation or bullshit. That's out there which is only causing people to become more unhealthy. Come find me anywhere. At real food with Dana on Instagram facebook joined the real talk with Dina facebook group for more support and discussion on these episodes and coming out over on real food with Dina Dot Com for the show notes and totally epic and delicious recipes piece.

cortisol Birth Control Hill Depression Cortisol researcher Dana Montes Dr Dr Sarah anxiety HP Dr Sarah Hill Hormones Jones Dr Sarah progesterone research psychologist Kuku MD
Sarah Hill owner of Swimmingly  Episode 108

This is Rammy - the podcast about Ramsbottom, its residents and businesses.

34:02 min | 3 years ago

Sarah Hill owner of Swimmingly Episode 108

"On the podcast this week I have got a local resident who took her passion for swimming and turned into her own business. In fact she even built her realm pool is Rami. Your locally produced weekly podcast bringing news and interviews and information from awesome possum hosting hello hello and welcome to another episode road of this is Romney if you've not heard of it before. This is a podcast where I talked to local businesses local residents. Sometimes I talk about the local news in ramsbottom awesome our local area. I have been doing this for a few years now. This is episode one hundred and eight where I speak to local resident Sarah Hill who took a passion for swimming she learned a new way of swimming became a trainer and he basically took the plunge into making her own business. Sarah Hill is the owner swimmingly and his interview. I did with her late last year. This is probably going to be my first interview in this next so I am here with Sarah Hill and you are around awesome resident. Let's stop wiser pulling your adviser to my good question and dependent Mike because I run a small business from Michael swimmingly which provides long one swimming lessons and coaching for primarily adults but we do have some slots for Children School Age unfor- Preschool Children's and how is it different it was different because of the WHO is quite small. It's only about five meters by three exactly but it's around that and it has a she could fast line in one end which San Sapone of water down the pool so into kind of some treadmill so you can swim in place without actually going anywhere and it you could change speed so you can have it for children's speed or you can have really really fast triads long kind of speed so it sits at the rank mark what your background is women well. My background is is is just as a swimmer. I've never done soon metal works in profession into the Muskie careers and I've always been synonymous enjoyed swimming and over nine years ago. I decided I wanted to swim further than I could. At the time I was Vice Dr splashing out breath very quickly which is very very common story and I never had some lessons other than the schools was all kinds of made up and so when I discovered a swimming technical type immersion which by the ninth suggested pool underneath nursing strike two way it's more aww approach to swimming bits without signing like a hippy kind of mind full Senate immersing yourself in swimming and it's not just moving down the pool is really thinking swimming in a different way so I went down to love bre which was the nearest coach could find and spent three days learn this technique well three days a period of time down three times to learn this technique and have to be honest totally transformed my life that sounds dramatic attic but it did enable me to swim farther than I thought I could much more easily than I ever thought and to enjoy do you think tank and since then I've started doing coaching for open water on my thing is I want to post in particular night the promoter so doing long distance open water marathon swims promoter and Saudi coaching and Elton Reservoir getting down there on a cheese day join a SUMO L. Try Mike Cook and then I realized it was nobody else in this area tall offering touch emotion Sunni teaching and coaching so we're trying to see how much beginning last year eh and fails to find something pool to rent so ended up deciding well. What the hell let's just so? That's what we did very long story. Short awards controllability actually built in a swap sky but you'd never know now looking at it because it is consignment salary this fab. It's an ability as you very. You're very well situated as well. You're not far from center around till now just from town yeah so it's it's an ideal location so you did open worlds like after like in Greece I I think the thing that they've asked us possibly so fashion channel swimmers you wouldn't if he did a rating also makes it's Kinda move you can stocky chafing dry pleasant changing channel but he's moved on these days is not so much. Actually I never was the fish was and now jim primary likes the swimming that the people do these. There's a lot of people do you are listening to the kind of city now. I'd prefer today's is long legs wins and we melted as far as some all set across across contributing wherever there's a lake swimming and some people are wack saints lost people don't is personal choice really waxy makes it more buoyant so it's assigning easier and it's not is it. It's it's appropriate experience not that. When isn't this stiffen? It's about just really million Jillion fails. which is the way that I've now learned to swim say I'm swimming salted? He's not wasn't enjoyable cold. Well he added the coldest off. It really is leading to remember to breathe when you paint the miniature tenures all breath bridges so tom about a and in Japan. If you something slowly carefully specified some new splashing water put some more the back of your neck just to let you know what's coming and just take it really slowly deep breathing as well from your belly rather checks. That nice relaxed right he approached to that's what went TV just jump in and yeah you get so whether on Joan panels wrong okay it is a war sports build a rough around with by yet. It was in in winter but that's not something needs to do because you nicely home pool in very pie foot. Put looks are very feels Scandinavian. Yes I was thinking very very Scandinavian like solar. She's a lovely building. You've got with you you pool. Let's a bit more about your background less less swimming but how how did you end up implantable and had it under nonstop seven seven neutrons from Iran stalls up before the election from Harrogate feel and moved across ten years ago eleven years ago and just really like trump started sort of looked for because we could see Bali and and eventually decided we should move here Netherland back. I wouldn't change with me science vice and if you to so what did you do before well for Myself Years Project manager and I did not try and inspire used to work for organizations can with a social purpose coop credit unions and so public private partnerships between police and other organizations to kind of facilitate take projects any sense. It's very very excited. Yeah probably need to change now very look at the last few years of effort from south. It's been it's been great but then I just saw this opportunity because there's nobody else in and the coach often Toki meason. I'm coaching in Manchester Lancashire Cheshire. Thank Mr No furthest Knowles suspension North Visit Penrith which is how the around the cone out some did the somebody in the world and then going south. I think it's again. What's what's the situation I mean? Do you know what they built a similar theatrics Samantha News this others just use a manage to hire. Hi were total losses right okay so when you're looking for hiring who was it. Did you have to have this not told that just needed a coin that would tim enabled me to teach people and fewer and far between when when you know they're all book took credit that will help rules the council pools the grandson pool grain. Let me hire that once when it's free and but it's it's a busy city cup snappy thing is practically impossible to spice it and went on to the cost of the pools. I could hire and it just didn't make sense right at this date. Okay I thought it was the worst it doesn't always and so did you look at the cost of a time of life. Uh estimate how many lessons you'll need and of course is so proud and being punked agreement accident. It was one of those things I thought well. Let's just you know and I I was confident because I I know that there's people that who because of the way take it is different and it's a totally different approach to swimming into teaching and I know that there are people there's lots of people that who would welcome up because because swimming is quite a score was quite set in its ways as far as the weights taught and the way people understand how should be taught it hasn't changed years and in years and years. It's never been looked at never been advised never been looked at in light of saw among technology even a path leads and let's face it most of his not it never will be so I go there enough. People who wants to learn to swim while and who haven't gone along with standard tuning teaching and who just want a different branch and hopefully continue to be proved right there are enough people I mean my our clients range from at until adults who are primarily that tells people who terrified anymore why to find his because this is such a common violent people really come on quickly say within a couple of lessons here okay and she's swimming and to what level they want to but you know that they're actually in the water facing wanted which is fabulous and again as life changes people in my struggle the years and years and years and now children there and he wants to sing. I just can't themselves today so we can work out and successfully then we we have a lot of people who are coming back to swimming adults in how had lessons in school and myself you know he just thought my quiet quad to get into this. What do water 'cause? It's growing school finding a lot of people coming you just want to learn and when they find out how we teach h they find it. This is not my expected this very different. I like it and it's easy to the crucial thing and it's not stressful. It's not splashing down pool and exhausted. It's a very different kinds of private and that I have the triathletes lots of them against the growing and Korea Muslim lots of translates around this of all different shapes and sizes it's brilliant and and they because they're used to roam it used to scientists and traffic on your web if united cycling and swimming often in L. Promoter and because that bill for money cycling swim a hater terrifies them really struggle with us when we can do it and then what the aim of the swim for them is to get our filming on K. two top time on whatever distance that is Paris feeding okay at the moment most of the getting our attitudes Austin stress because of the way this would be an hour prior to making out feeding laxed enjoyed it and more energy for the by along so I'm I'm traveling which which stages the Swin I I need to do that. The speaking take the main thing is because alternate they say the fastest and this is and catch up on the bike and Iran and at the moment a lot yeah distributed and I hate hate it but look wattage means at that changes okay so we'll spend cold for for someone that tens so let's say the general doesn't like swimming console to swim for example myself. I'm a powerful swimmer I can stay afloat can't not gonNA drown in this way. What would be the end goal for someone like that and then people to and from crawl because that's how grant assuming it's actually the easiest rank but the way that is traditionally taught very difficult by stressful and not what's number restaurant which is is quite tricky to swing at stage from quality dental and if I tell you a little bit about humanitarian and the difference as I said it's not an investment in the water? It's an approach on my tradition soothing which is all about fighting the war two people thrashing down pools have no idea how to work with the water and it's stressful Russell they they struggled to brave that brain is talent and get to the ad because that's what we're meant to do. You know we meant to rid water. The brain instantly wants us to find a most swimming when you look at it. It's action based around that whether that's consciously or unconsciously people fighting to get to there that's why people find finding stressful and it can be very tense when this woman our prices are deeply turns on its head so instead of fighting the war to we work with it so we refined our own buoyancy and we use that tar onto gene pool so instead of Russia down the pool pulling water behind journey. You're kicking crazy. wease leased pipes despite much of that starting of bounce position said he starts off kind of in harmony with the water and say working out how you can work to my advantage. I want to help people balance which is very quick. It doesn't take long for most people to get parents until it's just people never been talked to do not what you see people swimming upside one on on doing this doing that because it's so we teach them to balance that we streamline them so we take anything that's causing track that slowed slow down in the water and that's causing to be balanced he thinking about how many swing their arms and legs things and that's just tipping them up creating problems Oakland almost making him sink a lot of time so we do that and only then do we have the propulsion as about propulsion. I mean it's it's a catchy. Some people pull the ball to the island. This is a cap so it's holding the water pulling yourself past point in the water and it's just timing up kick nick to help you. That's all is so the whole stroke is very hard. It's very relaxed and it looks effortless and it is effortless. Once you learn on how to do it and learning how to do is incredibly easy and we take a step by step approach to call focal points on my traditional swimming Radha teach sons on the side says do kick up and down and make sure you just can't can't do that's impossible. We do one thing at a time so we work on a think time and we repeat that a few times and it quickly becomes the norm said you're trying to change how your brain thinks about Semenya. What you want is doing so they step approach is very easy to learn and the other differences? We're actually in the water with Sarah to stand on the side telling you what to do show you you said we demonstrate and we all say move you allow to put you in the right position. Sarah just say put your back. We actually put you back for you and that getting that kind of feedback is helpful because you insulin I watch lines and comply with Jerry is video to do analysis during the session Mississippi away with the videos and with practice plan specific plan tailored to them about how they need to practice what they I need to do to progress and we never pay plan every week artists that we just say come back when you feel you practiced enough to you progress because what we don't want to charge people to come and practice that's not just own practice in your local pool and feel the event into the next at stage side so it's like a corrective teaching so we don't have to constantly come here and you can correct swimming a little bit and goes exactly what coming because they get the practice plan and get the video they see what the mental mental guy or they see that the things need to work on they can read as well and so they there are two those tools and they have them forever so back in five six lessons for most people who are able to swim a little bit to start with to get everything they need to continue to coach themselves and the way television works is it's. It's it's a keizer car teaching which is about continuous improvement improvement so we always say to people that forever now they will continuously improve their sway because of the way that we is it is a totally different approach to swimming results in youthful stroke and this video online to have a look that video shake g swimming and is the most watched video on youtube and he's attempt emotion coach from Japan and he strikes his speech to insurance episode and then anybody who wants just look at the website for this episode before did look a a lot different to how I've not lenses for him in the past so is there an average number of lessons. Someone would typically carry fight well. We we sell blocks five. We asked people to come on for an assessment I just so we can get a plan together and see what they're doing. Video them get them and find out what they want what they learn what we need to learn and and get them thinking about how the guys do this because it needs some commitment from people ghat practice this technique absolutely works without fail if people practice and so we say probably after assessment probably five sessions and in those five sessions we could cover everything that you donate ten. We'll cover get any balance for the streamlining and we'll start ought to think about propulsion towards the end but because what people find is because they become streamlined because they become balanced they instantly become faster because they're not holding themselves by creating drag in the water came out styles and they're not going to stop Fred and not having you know. It's just much much pleasant last year if you if you couldn't through the Walter be easier you know as chocolate union and you don't sit there and because there's no stress involved because the way that people end up swimming is tempe stress phrase toting relaxes and attention anywhere than you need for your brain. doesn't kick in assigning wine saying you can feel much warmer last season. What sounds sounds very peaceful? I'm hoping that the person listening to that is if they're anything like me which is the never really enjoyed. Swimming always been thinking of just go because it's it's the lesson time or go founded than it does sound like some at a different approach that would possibly Sukhoi love people so it's a it's a you say you say you. Something bought a box of five. What was the cost of a book of fiber and the blood? The lessons caused some sixty five pounds an hour in the water plcs practice loans video analysis on whilst you're swimming with an after your lesson you can come back for you anytime for help. You know say if you want media could be so. Maybe I can say well. This is what's happening. You have people in my lifetime stopping. What's going on? Try this try that was it just helps the answer to take what you doing so so you have in the water one-to-one with the south and the video assists through the section the why why do I use an outcome annotating video rate over it so I showed you what you need to be doing and Japan's mice participants sixty five pounds and we saw the block four four two nine five which reduces the price by five and I can be taken either whatever period like we don't let people come back every week because they need time to practice and so usually people come every two three weeks when really at the beginning stages and they hold off the last couple of sessions combative what kind of a gene obsession so if somebody buys a blocker five they don't necessarily they're not set so you could you could do a lesson ought to go off to the right and that's encouraged because Steve coming back for practice sessions because it's not cheap. It's very good value because it works just how much cheaper than standard shooting lessons on you book ten thousand get your constantly over and over and exactly not a champion the other week and he'd he'd have twenty lessons and his own words. I'm just awful and so he's invested in already installed it within the first hour he much much is positioned in praised everything about strike starting to brave and he found outside and copy and in this day and he hadn't said have had an epiphany amazing it is exciting. It is because for you if you because you probably didn't know how go top people come in and turning up and saying things it's amazing. I mean we get some oculus views vice in really really right because it is in year with different and people wait. It's weird it blitz. It works trust process an accident. We were getting reviews to get absolute about and I get awesome is coming from Orlando as visiting fattest. Let's go so the people from Wigan stunk and all over the place right catch on that more places located near to them. The mile catches because the couch training. You've got to be a decent swimming. You've gone through learn to sound people to be able to demonstrated to be honest with with Standard Smith. I know people were I know lawsuits accounts so teaching other people things that they actually didn't sounds sounds and which shot you realize how unhealthy what to do and they don't stop it sounds and there's a lot of grace teaches teaches that don't get me wrong. There's different approaches and people have different techniques and that's fine. I absolutely believe this is the way the way that Sudan should be tall. We started ought to do some children's lessons and because we had so many requests Saturday just didn't mommy sets up the way that a papal diagnosed with that Guy Garden residential area with only a small parking area and not much space to change in so we can't do not such lessons but we we started doing. I started doing a few lessons just for France within any kind of took a few children and we kept getting wanted request. This is trying to you know you hear of disruptive things disrupting an industry and tuna believe this will will disrupt swimming in time. Let's that's GONNA governing. Was We've taken another teacher who is learn. Ti Skill teacher and she's she's is a totally into this and she's been amazed at the difference. Just a few weeks haven't taken a different approach to teaching children of the Arthur but she's absolutely odious. It's obvious to buy this when she saw passage accompanied. This is strange sure why is this not everywhere so she's really really taking a very very quickly. So teaching children token measure techniques from a child the point of view not chill adapted for children and and it's fabulous results great people had children children you've been having standard lessons for years and they come here and within a couple of excellence that strike is transformed just because the balance demoralized the last and they're join stress. Let's say that Wednesday's children but I'm time for children got once preschool twice left Wednesday morning preschool obviously not teach Asian to swim. Are we getting ready. Began eleven point six retirees loaded limitation. I take we have to do to stop so we'd love but we don't use patient Asian people buoyant and comfortable in the water seems possible and it cannot put is giving him a good foundation for lesson from yet but we're all side okay and to expanse I looking pools and to to the to offer more children's lessons and more and not just want to loans the moment to to to to to to one siblings just because the facilities but we would like to sound off a small small Ooh and then we forbid way you'll be teaching a lot more people. Are Techniques Foster absolutely yeah so I'm looking at the polls. Everybody has a pool and wants to raise very happy to only comes details on show January for this episode so moving on from swimming on why we hit both you've you've lifted around for a long time. What do you like about why upon detaining in a good way it's Alabama characters the people here I sense of community which I've never spent face anywhere else and I'm of the effort that goes on to make the town what it is you know that things that happen people pitching in all the word that people do to bring people to the town I just I think I mean if you look at this amazing mazing place Sydney to skill ladder tonight and we'll just look at the answer caffeine minutes to walk to the cabinet and the valuable could Manchester terabytes minds and look at and rethink merely just chickens on the way chickens Haruna Lodge smallman? I'm optimistic kingfisher down as go to school and just incredibly lucky to have this experiment woke up the rate the weather sometimes it's no book looked at let me think about the kids have the right and is is the Miami we we can't see the area but just when you see the tally conceive marina in Indiana. You're a little bit loss fused desist the people as I said not been here that long founded sign welcoming not now not great people have server supports. I missile within people have worked on the nightmare project that we had the swamp so pope's floods smile at my community effort sometimes miss everybody get involve. Everybody trash it up to massive Italian garden affect. He was very easy for me to find out the details on the show principle I would be fine you can touch and hopefully you'll be able to spread this method of swimming a lot because he's one of those skills. He's it's not just is a little bit like riding a bike riding bikes necessarily going to say Pilak example and waters and learn to swim in this. That's calm oh and relaxed you know it. It's so much safer as well people for into water. The lasting one day special around the best into Davis is to flint and a love paper this this that's where it starts. It starts fighting and just teach not letting flagship position just that she's fantastic talk. We'll hopefully if you're listening to this. You floated your way through the interview and thank you very much sir speaking to me on this and hopefully you'll get thank you know it was fantastic speaking to Sarah she obviously she's got her own business running out of Ramsbotham. She's just up. The road from the center runs wants so much lease is an easy walk from town centre and yes she as she mentioned an incident quite a few challenges when she was actually originally building the the poll the she uses for her business but if you like the sound of obviously if if you do want to get in touch with Sarah all contact details are on the show notes for this episode code you can find all of the show notes for any of the episodes past present future on this is Romi Coda. UK rummy spelt Ra double the and Y. Dakota UK and also whilst you on that you can find my details you can find a way to subscribe to the pus. If you don't already and please do in torch I do like hearing your feedback especially if you've gotten suggestions for into us for the future any ways in which you'd like the show to take direction or even if you I just need some help with something for example I helped somebody on twitter recently who had asked a quick quick question about what locations they can take that doctor so I went round I sent a few tweets and a few facebook messages out asking a few asking for businesses basically to come forward and let me know if your dog friendly friendly and I put together a about eleven different places so far this is a work in progress it will get attitude as more and more businesses come forward and obviously say make make them aware to me that they are dog friendly but this is the kind of thing I'd like to try and provide a service for you and if you know if you can get in touch with with me and let me know what I could do to help you then obviously that make a lot more targeted and a lot more easier to figure it out you directly so we've just got some time now for the shoutouts this episode the shoutouts how I look at the social media pages the twitter account the facebook account in instagram accounts and I list of a few people have followed recently and this week or this episode at least these people are on thank you very much liking following golden social media pages they saw ah Louise Good Holly Crawford Stacey Wild Mati White John Fielding Leon. AC The trout to Notre Often Mark Tayla UH on Sarah O'Connor. Thank you very much for like in the pages and hopefully I will speak to you again next week. So I'M GONNA rupp this episode up here. No news events no okay groups or anything like that this episode afraid please tune in next week for a hundred and nine and I will speak to you again soon. Thanks for listening to the show. Existent Cope assist assist members and individuals in an effort to bring more attention to authenticity town if you like this is Romi subscribing leaving leaving out to review or sharing with your

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Entrepreneur Stress Management Using Virtual Reality

Pamper My Business Podcast

31:37 min | 2 years ago

Entrepreneur Stress Management Using Virtual Reality

"Hi, I'm Sarah hill. Nine encourage you to listen to the podcast with Kim Beazley were we're talking about helium a VR AR stress management tool that can quickly give you virtual peace. Hi, this is Michelle Loughery over of the Shelby Lowry. Online business solutions. I give busy entrepreneurs more time. I offer Email management customer service and administrative support to online service providers. Like to learn more, visit me and my website, Michelle Loughery, VA dot com. I look forward to seeing you there have a great day. I'm in, I'm the hope of camper. My business where you will word two, two n thinking that will give you the freedoms easily feel your free online so that you can be thing and biz fail. Your target. I will be interviewing industry leaders and professionals who will share their knowledge and experience, which will help you for your business online. Get ready eight note, and learn from Kim and her gift because this is going to be a fun learning experience. I can't Beasley your host bird pamper my business podcast. I'm so excited as usual our start out saying, I'm excited, this time I have someone I've been knowing for few years that I'm yet, if you only today, her name is cereal. She's a story of maker of helium. You're gonna find out all about it today, just to kinda give you a heads up. It's virtual in out minute reality states for stress management powered by your wearables. Yes. Stress management. I know as entrepreneurs, we experience stress founded time. Listen it and learn how helium which Aceros company is a four minute virtual piece in a box. I love that. Welcome, sarah. Thank you very much am so excited to talk with you and share more about helium. Awesome out for those unit dog. Now Seren I got our start way back when Sarah was newscaster for local station in Columbia, Missouri at Chiesa do Google hangouts on air. I was wanted people who would come in, in hang out with their we've actually met in person. And so we've been knowing each other over the years, I wanted to carry let you know, give a little background to how we know each other, and now going to start bugging, pestering, Sarah, so, so the I two contri- out where we're going to talk about today. So Sarah, tell me how did your business started? Sure. So I was busy television news anchor lived by police scanner for about twenty years covered a lot of trauma. You know, as a as a journalist, you cover death, destruction natural disasters. We interviewed parents who lost children cover the aftermath of, of the Sunali went to, you know, other countries and saw awful human suffering. And that weighs on a person to make a long story short my health suffered I suffered a series of panic attacks. I wasn't able to sleep in. I needed to get out of the media business to, to save my health. The good news is, is that it was media business was a great, great people, great companies that I worked for. But the media diet, that I had chose to consume was not balanced in any way. And so, that's what helium is, it's a positive bit of virtual peace in your busy hectic day with whatever it is that you're going through that, she can just be reminded that there are some beautiful things that happen into the world and not only that, but you can see your feelings displayed inside these virtual or audited, reality experiences of the year smartwatch or a brain sensing, headband. I see them displayed in, you can actually control these environments with your feelings. So my business started with the problem that, that I had, and that was, you know, wanting to get some more virtual piece at about the same time that I left the television station I started giving burchell tour. Here's to group of aging and terminally ill veterans who weren't able to physically travel to see their memorials in Washington DC. So we were bringing them virtual tours via Google glass. We also shot a virtual reality film, and we noticed that these media experiences appear to be affecting their physiology. They weren't just watching watching these three hundred sixty degree experiences. They were feeling them. And so we decided to test, how is this kind of media impacting, heart rate, and brain patterns, and we found that it was impacting them in, in a very profound way. And it was actually a couple of published. Studies was was reducing their giant. And so, that's when we started creating these helium kits which is essentially virtual piece in a box four minutes that you can be in beautiful landscapes all around, you, even when you're not able to go to the beach, or float through nebula in space. We can place you there. And. You could see your feelings while you're inside those environments, something that is store cly inside your body. I you haven't been able to see the reason why I wanted my listeners to hear about this is because it's entre. Noor I mentioned already that we, we experienced stress and stress in a way that not only affects our mind. It also affects bodies and stressing over money stressing over your project stress over your team. If you have a team, the all of these things are things that can be helped by helium, if if I'm understanding correctly. Can you explain how it helps the one who stresses or someone manager stress level? Sure. So stress is responsible for sixty percent of all illness, and disease, matter fact of the majority of doctor visits are stress related. Stress manifests itself, says, headaches all kinds of physical manifestations in your body. Not to mention it has an impact on your business. It increases turnover reduces productivity reduces creativity. It increases absenteeism in the number of sick days, which actually costs, you're you money. In fact, according to the World, Health Organization stresses, the twenty first century epidemic, and it's a three hundred billion dollar people, and profit killer. That's how much stress cost businesses each year. Helium reduces that by essentially slowing down shift your downshifting, your nervous system, so much like you might take a warm bath or walk in a park. Helium is virtual warm bath or a walk in park. It's not any kind of replacement for psychotropic medication or anything like that. But it is a break for your brain a break for your body, a break for your mind. And for people who struggle with traditional forms of meditation, perhaps, when you close your eyes and imagine a meadow, you see nothing which is me. I'm not necessarily a closure is in meditate kind of person when I close my eyes, I don't always see things like I'm supposed to see because historically, I haven't had that, you know, well connected mind body connection, but would helium does. It's visual meditation. So it's open your eyes and meditate open your eyes Mbakwe more self aware of your surroundings. See those surroundings analogy that, but see your biometric information via your heart rate, or your brain patterns live streamed inside these picturesque landscapes to better understand how your physiology and the things that you think about in your mind, those thoughts that ruminate on in your head can impact your physiology. So, for instance, the fuel that you. A used a power helium are your happy memories, a narrator tells our users to recall a happy memory at time when you felt love, joy or appreciation, that's different for every person. A lot of people think of think of their kids and your kids don't necessarily make it go up. Was your kids, you know can bring you stress? You think they make you happy and they do make you happy? But when it comes to brain, patterns, or heart rate, you know, they can they could raise them or make them go different way. So it's not necessarily your kids your dog or a time when people were applauding for you when people were happy with you on when people were showing you gratitude or you're showing love to someone else, but encourages you to recall those happy memories, and that's the fuel that you use to propel the experience and so- via your wearables, were using your body's electric city as a gas pedal of source. So think those positive or. Happy thoughts in the experience plays. You don't think those positive or happy thoughts and the experienced stops? And of voice comes in to try to help people call a happy memory, so it's classic neuro feedback or vite, biofeedback, just set inside virtual augmented reality. So off minute reality virtual reality inside the goggles is completely closed environment. You see nothing but what's inside the goggles, so we can place you in a beach in, you can look all the way around and feel like you're out of beach, or in a forest or a meadow, anything like that. An augmented reality is we're taking three d assets and bringing them into your world. So in the form of a butterfly tulips or the solar system, and with your wearables, you able to control these things, so you're able to hatch butterflies out of this virtual Christmas with your feelings of positivity. If you're, you're. Feeling go beloved this above this red threshold than butterflies flowed out of this this Christmas. And they all have stories attached to it. I'm a storyteller story. Nerd, so this story about the butterflies is about metamorphosis, and how changing human life takes time and it's it's a guided meditation. It's the same thing with, with the solar system. If you lower your heart rate's via data that comes from your apple watch than the solar system, lights up, the planet's light up and they begin to float around you. So it's a reminder that our thoughts and feelings have power to control things not only in the virtual world, but then in the real world is well, and if you don't have a wearable, you don't have a muse meditation had banned, or you don't have an apple watch. It's fine. You just click. No, I'm not using that when use helium in the experiences automatically play without them. And you're reminded to imagine that your thoughts were actually controlling the environment as opposed to. To via the wearable. You know, they actually are controlling the environment. So a variety different use cases that you can use it for but to boil it down. It's a few minutes virtual piece. It's a warm bath. It's a walk in a park. It's a downshift for for that nervous system. You mentioned apple. And of course, you know, the first thing came to mind, was you have any plans for enjoyed integration. Yes. So on our app, helium AR is on Android. And so if you search in the Google play store, you'll find are admitted reality, butterfly experienced that you could download were also a Oculus, go, our headsets are built on Android. And so it's basically Android phone. That's baked inside vis these standalone headsets, but we're also on Oculus go, which is a Facebook product and you can even without a mobile device, you can be inside these, these experiences off to a gear VR works with your Android phone. So Samsung galaxy S six seven s eight and on up you're able to put it inside this virtual reality viewer. And then you can experience the helium app, and it's. H. E. A. L I, U M, like healing. But helium so not necessarily the balloon helium, but. H. E. A. L. M helium. Are you now feels your business rain align the checkout him for my business retraining to helps you learn how to start building your business? Fred online. Just go to free dot temper. My business dot com. Remember it free. Entrepreneur, you so wonder some of the lessons that she learned along the way in regards to grow in your business? A lot of lessons, number one that it takes the right people in order to be able to move your, your product Ford in that begins with the founder and your, your family is your first founder, so before you even go out and find a co-founder or anything like that your spouse, your mother, whoever you share your life with you need to make sure that they're on board with what you're doing before you step out on on your own. So make sure that you have the right people in your path also being highly mentor d-. I am a part of a bunch of different mentoring groups not only do I give my time as a mentor, but I am mentored myself. And these are the individuals who before we had a board of directors were our first, port attractors, and so, always make sure that you surround. Yourself with people who can a group of advisers whether they be former or informal that can that can provide you with with information other lessons that I've learned along the way. Our don't hire anyone until you absolutely have to because there are great freelance resources group software solutions, when it comes to sales, or things like that, that aren't necessarily a replacement for a real human being. But that can stretch the time that it takes before you actually have to hire a real human being because having to let people go is very sad, and it's tough and I've had to do it on multiple occasions. And it's no fun. So always make sure that you, you know, when you get ready anything I need to hire someone, but you really take a step back and say, you know how will they advanced the product forward? Do you have the ability to? Sustain that salary and also to that you've got a game plan in place for should you not be able to pay for their salary. So whenever you wanna hire. Somebody, try to hold off who you know, for, for as long as you can because those are real decisions that impact people impact families you don't wanna make sure that you're, you're prepared for that. In the on the third perspective is waits to fundraising a fundraising is incredibly hard, an way harder than you'll ever expect it to be, so don't raise money unless you absolutely have to or you need it to meet a milestone, or to enter a new market, or to get a competitive advantage or something like that. So those would be three little words of wisdom number four at, at afford fourth here is remembering yourself care it. You are your most important your company's most important resource. Than so, you need to take care of yourself, whether that be exercise meditation. Whether that be helium or walking your dog or whatever, if your not healthy, your business is in healthy, make sure that you are taking a self assessment. And if it's looking if you don't have anyone around you who's telling you that you're doing a good job. Well, you know, look in the mirror and tell yourself, okay? Yourself your own Atta girls in Atta, boys. Here's what I did. Good today. I do that, that to step back every once in awhile say, okay, you're not getting a performance review. There's no boss, telling you look at what you've done or whatever. So you have to give yourself your own Atta boys, Nadda girls want to you feel has been the keys to your success in just hear what you said about being. You're being courage to yourself. It ties into your success. What, what are you? Feel has helped you to achieve a the success achieve surrounding myself with a smart people faith. My faith has been a big, you know, part of how I keep going because whoever you place, your hope, in, you know, whether it be, you know, nature or a God, or our particular religion, you know, you really rely on that faith a lot when it comes to entrepreneurship, lock just dumb luck. You know. Bit people seeing at comprehensive or us seeing someone in a conference in reaching out in that turned into a relationship being hyper connected talking with anyone everyone that you can about your product, whether it be at a trade show. You know, opportunities like this for, for, for podcasts, the ability to share making sure you take each in every opportunity to tell people about about your product and get feedback as well. Negative feedback is, is great. And actually knows her great to when it comes to fund raising and sales, you will get a lot of knows. But if you internalize them in the right way in that you don't get bothered her upset by them. You know, the first ones that you get a really like a punch in the gut, and then after get punched in the gut a lot becomes a lot each year end you begin to realize that knows are just data. It's data to. This is not my customer, or what I need to do to change about the product. So perhaps they could become a customer in future. It's not, you know, no forever. It's no today, and that's feedback. It's fertilizer it stinks. But if you, you know while they're all those knows all over your body, ultimately that fertilizer is gonna grow you and your business in to something that amazing all of that faith knows embrace the nose. Come highly. Mentored, take care of yourself. Those are some of the path the pathways to success. In addition to focusing on your product in just really listening to people about what they say, are there, their barriers to entry why they use it why they don't use it when they use it, how they use it that kind of thing. So those are, are really essentials case this assists, that I fully believe in trusting. And I would love to know I will have to get into some of the published studies that you have about helium and how it has helped others. Can you share a little bit about some of the published studies? Sure, so at our company were constantly testing, our content to see how it impacts users physiology and to see if there's a way that we can make it impact their physiology even more. So, for instance, a doctor Tarrant. He's my co-founder. He does brain maps, EEG bring up to, to see how media essentially affects people, and so frontiers in psychology journal, of NRA Gatien. Both published studies showing that helium reduced self report, moderate anxiety, and increased. Feelings of positivity quickly in as little as four minutes. This is kind of like a little virtual digital chill pill. You know again a warm bath or, you know, a walk in the park, or, you know, something that, that can quickly slow that, that fast activity, those ruminating thoughts shift that negative narrative. That's that's playing in your head. We have another one. That's coming out. A study that was done with the American Red Cross looking at using helium to reduce that tension before blood donations. Giving blood is obviously not something that most people look forward to. Placing people in a in a headset in allowing them to escape, you know, before they get that blood, draw or, you know, during that blood draw we were able to find that in certain populations helium reduce that tension of thirty nine percent. It increase feelings of calm and happiness significantly. And so, you know, in this is a completely drug list solution, we're not talking about, you know, being any kind of replacement for an anti exhibiting medication or anything like that. This is just media. But when you are in places where you can't necessarily take a warm bath or like. Need dumping? You're going through something that sucks, whether it be chemotherapy or dialysis, or you know, a painful procedure or something like that. You just need to be distracted in have, you know, a break. That's, that's what helium can do. I purchase or Star Achievers, the UC Liam to come down. What are some stuff's that I would go through in order to use helium? I wanna make sure that mine listeners understand how helium works. And if they have to go out invested a lot of money or if they can use something, they are ready. Have can you explain that further? So we have different price tiers. So if you're an enterprise, and you wanna get helium for your workplace or something like that. That's ninety nine dollars a month are single user licenses are about twenty nine dollars a month. And then you just have to get the hardware. So our hardware has a different tiers. So. Right now. The hardware, that's required is Oculus go and amuse meditation headband, or if you use it without had been you can, but mutation had bands are about a hundred in seventy five dollars. It just depends on whether or not, they're, they're unseal that fluctuates and then Oculus go goggles are about two hundred ninety nine dollars or one ninety nine for, for the regular single user license. So once you get the hardware, and you can get that hardware at best buy you go to our site. We have an e commerce site. If you go to try, helium dot com in click on by you'll see how you purchase these kits and their kits comes in a box of that box, either haven't Oculus go or we also have Google cardboard as well. That will be rolling out next month all that is on our ecommerce site. So if you go to try helium dot com at has all the information of the published studies that you can look through. And sample of, of some of that content. And with our licenses software licenses, you get a neuro meditation curriculum, and teachers, you not only how to use the goggles or without the goggles. Even just use augmented reality with district mobile device as well best the lowest Baird entry. So if you're just wanting to try out helium without having to get the hardware. I'd encourage people to download our augmented reality app. And if you search. Helium. A. R. H. E. A. L U, M, A R on your iphone or on your Android device. It's a dollar ninety nine app. You can download it even without a another wearable integration, you just clip. No, you're not using wearable in. You can see how that operates, but for our users, who go on to purchase are single user licenses are monthly subscribers. They get that video curriculum a teaches them about the different areas of their. Rain, alpha beta beta gamma delta, and what they do and their role in your your wellbeing. Those are led by Dr Jeff Tarrant who's my co-founder, which is helpful as while they also get a book, it is about Niro meditations, and about some of the things you can do to, to rewire your brain again, shift, those negative narrative that those negative thoughts that creep into your head and Jeff does a great job on, on educating people about what neuro meditating is. And then every sixty days, you get a new piece of content. So a new piece of content is added to the platform in so that library never gets old on loving that loving. So is there anything else that you would like to share, this is your moment to shine where you can tell us how to get in touch with you? How engaged with your li- while I would encourage you guys to download the app, and we would love a review so give us some love in, in, in the comments. Try it out. Let us know what you think on social media helium X are is where we are on Twitter Facebook in Instagram as well. We also have a program called honor everywhere, I would choose for aging veterans. So by purchasing helium you help enable more these veterans to get virtual tours. We actually ship some of our higher end kits to, to the vets, and they have opportunity to see the World War, Two Vietnam, a Korea, women's memorial inside the goggles, if you know of veteran who is named physically traveled to see their memorial. Get a pair of goggles. Download the helium app and show show it to them. We have a. Free demo version of the helium app on Oculus go all the veterans content is free on there. So definitely share it with, with someone that, you know, and you'll find more information about honor everywhere, which is our company social service a social social program. We we pioneered it. We built it from the ground up, and you'll find that at honor everywhere dot com. I have one more question for you than all chicken. I shouldn't that it will be ready for cardboard coming soon. I have if if works with cardboard will it also work with Google daydream? Yes. So we're on daydream as well forgot to mention that. So I've pixel phone pixel one pixel to pixel exile guests. We're on day drain, and on standalone Google Meraj, so low daydream enabled headsets just searched those at that app star for. Helium. H. E. A L UM. And you can find it on, on there as well. I know what I'm doing finish. So much for sharing because this is something that is important to me, having a stress reliever, and having a total that helped me manage my stress. Thank you so much. They're sharing today about. Helium. H. E A, L view. Please feel free to say any last words before we year. Dad, download it on the app store share it with people who you love in your life, whether that be veteran or someone who's going through a stressful situation, just share that virtual peace. Thank you so much. And once again, this being peppermint business with your host him, these -ly. I'm Jeremy Thomas found the one million women linkup. Powerhouse business initiative. Educates sparring, seven figure women on how to monetize Lincoln membership by forging lucrative collaborative marketing partnerships with, like mine business and professional women. So they can sell up events catapult their book cells fill up there coaching hours and more. Visit smart women partner dot com to learn more about the one million woman linkup. You have been listening to for my business podcasts and I am your host can't be joined the pamper my business community by visiting hamper my business dot com where you'll find our free training, along with our masterclass for the to continue your learning journey about building your friend online. Now is the chance to use reliable energy to grow your money with the dominion, energy reliability investment. Our new investment product offers competitive returns, no, maintenance fees, and flexible, online access to your money, make the reliable investment in reliable energy, the dominion, energy reliability, investment to find out more go online to reliability, investment dot com. That's reliability investment dot com. Right now at banana Republic factory save big with fifty to seventy percent off your store. Let's take an fifty percent off clearing. Daca. Dresses, follows starting in nineteen ninety nine find your nearest store shop online only banana Republic factory.

Helium Google Oculus Sarah hill co-founder Michelle Loughery Kim Beazley Missouri Facebook Columbia Washington DC banana Republic
The Dennis Prager Show 20210630  1 Demonetized

Dennis Prager Podcasts

37:29 min | 3 months ago

The Dennis Prager Show 20210630 1 Demonetized

"Is podcast is a production of the salem podcast network for more podcast like this from courageous voices of conservative reason visit salem. Podcast network dot com. Hey everybody dennis prager here. Mid week wednesday as i always not always actually come to my mind recently why i chose wednesday for male female our because it is newsday. Guess what day. it is. Guess what day it is. Anybody going to to find that. It's talking camel. It throw the of being broadcast. I apologize welcome to the show. Brett weinstein case you didn't know was a professor of biology. Evolutionary biologist held in high regard in the sciences best of my analogies in atheist lifelong liberal and he however he if he was on the left as opposed to being liberal. He left the left because he demonstrated courage at evergreen state. I believe that's the main in washington when they announced one day that all non blacks or all white specifically leave the college for the day and a lifelong civil rights proponent and liberal slash left. He would not leave the campus. He was cursed at threatened. The police told him. It's so dangerous for you. don't show up. And he left evergreen state which has since suffered a decline in applicants. It should needless to say go out of business but if every university that has become a intellectual and moral wasteland. We're to close down. It'd be very few left. I will tell you about yale a little later university that if my child got into with the scholarship i would. I would mourn the possibility that my job wanted to go. I'll tell you about yale later. I'm back to brett weinstein. Brit weinstein a podcast. And the podcast is subsidized by viewers listeners. Google which owns youtube has demonetized. His broadcast has podcast. He cannot any longer have advertising revenue and support himself with that. What did he do think about. What did he do that. Has rendered him incapable of making a living on the internet. Because of google slash youtube as a scientist he noted that ivermectin saved lives the corruption the moral corruption at google youtube twitter. Facebook is Is thorough moral people. Do not seem to work in the tech industry and big tech a Profoundly said observation on my part but the immorality of these people has now reached a state where i do believe. They are responsible for vast numbers of dead people in america. Yes i said. I would stake my reputation on the efficacy of ivermectin and i wish they did the same but the being on the left means never having is because nobody will hold you accountable if your doctor will not prescribe ivermectin to you. Leave that doctor. Your doctor is an ignoramus sweet kind fine person though he or she may be there an ignoramus 'cause they don't follow the literature on ivermectin s. That's i i who have no background in the natural sciences. No more about the case studies have ivermectin than your doctor who won't prescribe it your doctor. The doctors won't prescribe it is lazy is intellectually lazy. It is there is no. There are no grounds on which the your doctor can justify. Not having done it not having prescribed for you. June twenty first twenty twenty one new study links ivermectin to large reductions and covert nineteen deaths. Epoch times the use of the anti parasitic drug ivermectin could lead to large reductions in cove nineteen deaths and may have a quote significant impact on quote on the pandemic globally according to a recent reprint review based on peer reviewed studies for the study published june seventeenth in the american journal of therapeutics doctor. Familiar with us. If your doctor won't to prescribe ivermectin why do i a non-scientists talk show host. No about the study and your doctor who won't prescribe ivermectin to you especially if you have early stage. Covert or as i do. I take it as a prophylactic. I've been around people. I've been hugging strangers. Mass klis since last march. I have not worn a mask anywhere except on the rare occasions that i have gone indoors and did it as an act of courtesy and irrationality. We'll get to the latest. Oh you know there's a What is the word for the new new covert one is very low variant. The delta vary and i'm happy to say that the gamma variant seems to passed unnoticed. Seeing there is good news anyway. Why does your doctor. About the american journal of therapeutics june seventeenth or to put it more precisely. Why do i and your doctor not. That's his job or her job. So i i don't doubt the sincerity and kindness of your longtime doctor however get rid of him or her as your doctor if you want to continue to go out for drinks or bowling or hunting or skydiving. That's a non issue but as your doctor group of scientists reviewed the clinical trial use of ivermectin. Which has antiviral anti-inflammatory properties in twenty. Four randomized control trials involving just more than thirty four hundred participants. The researchers sought to assess the efficacy of ivermectin in reducing infection or mortality in people cope with one thousand nine hundred high risk of getting it by the way i'd like like you know who were the authors of the study. We should put it up at dennis. Prager dot com. So you can send it to your doctor and send me his or her or there. I don't i don't know your doctor. May be non binary. There's nothing like a non binary doctor because they treat both sexes. So well knowing both intimately andrew bryant theresa laurie. Therese dow's well and edmund fordham. Oh not done. Scott mitchell sarah hill these are all. Phd's are md's k. For the record from newcastle university evidence based consultancy bath the united kingdom. they're all brits emergency department. Principal princess elizabeth hospital guarantee the vision of gastroenterology. Ulster hospital belfast etc. Okay that's who did the study among hospitalized. Covert nineteen patients. I'm sorry among hospitalized. Covert nineteen patients. The risk of death was found to be two point three percent among those treated with the drug compared to seven point. Eight percent for those who were not. I've so many studies like this. That your doctor who won't prescribe ivermectin has no clue about your doctor listens to the cbc which is corrupt to get so much money from the drug companies. And that's it. I could be a doctor for all intents and purposes. If all i need to do is listen. To a cdc proclamation. I will give you more on brett weinstein when we return. I dennis prager here again with a message for anyone struggling with pain. Of course i want you to know about relief factor. The one hundred percent drug free supplement that tens of thousands or now taking every day. I take it every day. I like being out of pain. But i know you may be skeptical. I certainly was then. I kept hearing about all the people including my wife who will no longer in pain so i decided to give it a try in fact. Listen to genesis story. How skeptical at first. But because of the pain that i was having when i would Substitute teach and have to climb stairs. Because i have lower back hip and even knee pain and after about three weeks i found that i could climb stairs pain-free but it wasn't only pain-free i could do it step over step without holding on the railing. I'm really happy. It makes me feel like i'm young again. That's relieffactor dot com or call. Eight hundred five hundred eighty three eighty four eight hundred five hundred eighty three eighty four. Dennis prager here discussing what has happened. I'm like well. We're going to try to get him on the show. Actually brett weinstein story is pro a movie within a movie in the movie. No safe spaces one of the most important films i i. I know you think i'm biased. I'm not. I would admit it if i were but it just is on the issue of free speech. It's entertaining adam kroll and i are the quote unquote stars. Say quote unquote. I don't like to think of myself as a star and sort of rubs me the wrong way but in any event is a big section on what happened to brett weinstein at no safe spaces though safe spaces dot com all over. The internet except netflix did not allow it to be streamed the censorship in america's unprecedented. It's being done by private enterprise. Let's see here Joe in baltimore maryland. Hello dennis day of cherry. Picking on dennis prager show ivermectin jerry lee. American medical association march two thousand twenty one november. I looked at your study clients and it says low certainty and says the evidence supporting survivor mechanism. Blow certain right so the jury's out maybe you're right right so are you a doctor. I think you're a doctor right. Yes so if you had a patient who had early stage kovic would you or would you not prescribe ivermectin absolutely not. There's no evidence to support it. Is there evidence to support that. It's dangerous in the best interest of my patient. I'm sure you believe that. I'm sure you believe it am. I would ask your patient to go to another doctor. I don't. I don't doubt your sincerity. Your kindness your integrity. I just want you to know that you just have to study from the journal. The american medical so ripe yes. I don't believe. I believe that the ama is corrupt. So you're citing to me something that jama has lost all credibility in my eyes as has lancet that you don't understand how profoundly corrupted they have been by. The pharmaceutical companies is painful to me americans. Apparently it hasn't been corrupted journal. The american medical association. It's supporting your position on what i'm sorry what. I'm what medicine on pain medicine. And i agree with you on that. Yes so so right yes you can fight somebody to agree with them right and so okay. I'll tell you my standard if if people. I don't know. I'll tell you my standard. You don't have to tell me what you think. My standard is. My standard is very simple. I tell people what i trust. Well i signed a non trusted source. Of course i would cite cnn. If it if it had a source that supported something conservatives know to be true. Even though cnn lies with the regularity that you relieve yourself. Of course. i cite sources that i can't stand all the time not because they're reliable but but T to give as the talmud would put it. I i don't know if the english calva homer. I it's a it's a it's a logical construct if this then certainly this if even jama that corrupt source says x. Wow then we then folks. That's that's the reason i do all right. I'm sorry i this this this good. It's clarity it will. It will come out eventually all of this all of this to support it. There's no danger in ivermectin unless you want perfect. Safety ivermectin is a safe as aspirin. Okay good look. I'm actually i thank him for calling. The latest scientific dribble to come out is to wear masks because of the delta variant in in la county. where i through. God's sense of humor ended up living. They are advocating. That people that's not yet a mandate they're advocating people wear masks indoors even even if inoculated vaccinated. Once you to all guess how many people have died in la county of the delta variant. Sean i will use you. As as the man on the street still identifies male. And i don't want to impose anything okay. So the there can. They're telling us to wear masks again because of the delta variant. I want you to guess how many people have died in la county from the built a variant. Should i give you multiple choice or do you want to throw out a number. You feel confident with thirteen if thirteen people died in all of la county. Would you reinstate masks. No okay ladies and gentlemen. The actual number is zero zero. We have an mkx. Thomas machine fool named barbara farrar. Who for whatever reason though not not a doctor of medicine tells. People like eric garcetti. Another fool how to crush people's lives that's all she does. She doesn't lose a penny. None of these government workers do but they have made sure that small businesses lose their savings. That's all they have done. That is what i would say. The medical establishment in the last year and a half has done one thing made sure people lose their businesses. It has actually done nothing else. Oh well it's not true. It is made sure that children lose a year of school for no good reason. I wonder if my good doctoring baltimore. Thinks that was a good decision. And whether that was supported by the american medical association children not go to school. I keep reading to you. Every week i repeal another terrible consequence of the last year and a half of this incredible increase and drug use incredible increase in child abuse Of depression among young people are too hot to blame. A young american from for being depressed brought to blame them. Young american. you live in rotten society. It's always been rotten and you will probably die of global warming cause it's an existential threat. Existential zero have died of the delta variant in la county robin of carrying of the la. Times wants us to wear masks again. That's how i know it's a bad idea. Don't you get tired of commercials screaming at you to buy gold now with inflated promises on future values in an unregulated industry. You need honest. Real experts to give you solid advice to protect your wealth and top picks on the best coins and bullion as environmental policy becomes a hot topic. One precious metal that's been significantly undervalued for years is potentially set to surge. Nick rovic owner of amphetamine coin and bullion has long recommended. This precious metal up to six hundred thousand. Ounces of this rare metal will be needed by twenty thirty to produce green hydrogen. Nick is doubling down on this pick and you should too call nick at amphion coin and bullion to find out more. I've been friends with nick for years. And he's my go-to guy. When it comes to coins and bullion. I trust him. That's a very big statement by the way call nicot eight hundred two two one seven six nine four eight hundred two two one seven six nine four american federal dot com american federal dot com. Thank you everybody on a thank you all for. It's a good question. Well thank you for listening. Yeah zero people have died of the delta variant but la county is nevertheless called and so is the washington post editorial page another words the left which lives in a state of fear of life. These people do not lead full lives but they they exemplify what i wrote in my column yesterday about the the religion of be safe of safety. Azam they i wrote at the end. You can live a full life or you can live a safe life but you cannot live. Both they want to be safe. It's it and the name of safety. You can deprive people of their livelihoods. Of course it's other people but the amazing thing. My heart breaks walk outside in los angeles and see people outdoors wearing masks. Now tell me. Tell me something about the logic here. And why does not worry you about the fools who run the washington post and the cdc and the la county health department. Explain this to me Let's see here okay. Washington post editorial. Even those who have received the full vaccine dose are more and more often hearing advice to resume taking precautions. How is that possible of what use is the vaccine if you still have to take precautions. Did you ever hear of that in your life. Prior to this you take a vaccine and you're still susceptible to what you're vaccinated against. That's one hell of a vaccine on monday. La county recommended that everyone wear masks in public indoor spaces even though more than fifty four percent of california's population over age twelve is fully vaccinated of it. So painful for me to see over. Eight twelve should've been over eight fifty illinois governor jay pritzker democrat shocking. Made a similar suggestion fifty three point. Seven percent of the state's population over twelve has been fully inoculated. I would say from my own perspective. If you're going into a heavily crowded area you don't know if somebody is not vaccinated and so you just should bring your mask with you and keep safe. Wait if you're vaccinated. Why the hell the uk refined faxing you mean the vaccine only works with other vaccinated people so the vaccine prevents co vid among people who don't have covert. That is one powerful vaccine now. It is mind boggling that this is what americans by that. The washington post and democrat sell. It makes sense. They want to control you and they live in fear themselves but that americans would buy these gigantic life. Suppressing idiocies it's not a lie it's an idiocy is a difference you're vaccinated but hey somebody else might not be. So what that fair. The centers for disease control and prevention has previously said that the fully vaccinated can do without masks. But on friday the world health organization erz fully vaccinated people to continue to wear basques social distance and practice other mitigation the combination of corruption and an and lack of intellectual depth part of public health officials around the world. I guess i guess i don't understand. What have you qualify for these positions barbara farrar. Who who was a fool who who is a powerful fool is a powerful. She shouldn't have any power director of public health. She's she's not even in medicine. She's in public health. She made four hundred fifty four thousand nine hundred and thirteen dollars. Total compensation that's not bad. I don't care by the way. I don't care what she makes. The point is she puts people who make fifty thousand dollars out of business. That's the point. Ladies gentlemen dennis prager here those of you. Who are curious. I'm wearing a pink shirt today. It number of you. Who were curious about. The color of my shirt is the same as the number of deaths from kovin the variant in la county zero. So i got a white shirt with pink strike. Pink shirt pizza. Pink shirt your fast. Ladies and gentlemen i want you to know. I think i work with the fastest technical director in radio in the western hemisphere. I heard that there is a guy on romanian radio. Who's faster but i cannot verify. The rumor is a rumor so listen to this one folks. Just give you an idea of the the idiocies of the world. Israel is truly flipped out on the on. The virus will have to say another disappointment in the last year. And a the america israel sweden out the be the hero. But let's listen to this one. This is really something this is Let's see almost half of adults in israel and the u k infected with the delta covert variant were fully vaccinated. Aren't we told that if you're vaccinated it. It's a prevention against the delta variant an israeli health officials said fully vaccinated people who have come into contact with the delta variant in israel will have to quarantine they've truly flipped out the delta very is more transmissible than other variants but evidence is lacking on whether it will make people sicker than the others. What does it mean it's right. Evidence is lacking get medic. Great term evidence is lacking in other words right now. There's zero reason to believe it's a problem. It's more contagious erico. there's no it is nothing following air. Go george in. Kirby ville missouri the famous george of curvy ville. Hello yes my goodness I'm a longtime listener. First-time caller and First of all i I just wanted to thank you for your show. I've been listening for years and i You having unique ability to look at an issue from a perspective that i would have never considered so your insight has been very valuable to me in my journey through life and they don't need to fear cove it. I had cova last january and I'm seventy years old and but you know it only applies over seventy one. Yeah yeah so all right. I'm interested. But i just you missed by a year. Go ahead okay. Well i I went to the frontline. Doctors and i got the Hydroxy chloroquine The hyper masculine and zinc and I had the way five or six days because they they messed up my order. So i got it from my pharmacy here in missouri. Hello five days in the hope. It wasn't it wasn't It was rather mild Because i think a lot of supplementation including vitamin b. found post of other Vitamins and minerals et cetera and But i had the way and the color was not getting any better and But once i took the The hydrochloric cleans the ivermectin zinc. It knocked it out in two days. It not the snot out of it. Real quick right you sir but you would be dismissed by our doctor in maryland goodman that he is As it's a coincidence there are tens of thousands of coincidences. So i would like to be one of the coincidences if i got cold. Anyway mom ivermectin. I take And hydroxy chloroquine simi valley california. We have another doctor a vanni. Hello vanni morning how are you so what is your specialty. So i am board certified in family medicine very nice. I thank you thank you. I wanted to comment. You know. Because i've been listening to. I agree with you. Done your research on ivermectin Really the studies show that there's been at least fourteen. Studies have shown eighty five percent improvement in patients who tickets prophylaxis seventy six improvement in early treatment and twenty five cities. I mean the data is there to support it and unfortunately there are doctors who aren't prescribing. It you you were doctor. How do you explain them You know i. I don't i don't know i don't understand you know. Doctors without taught to be free thinkers we're taught to be independent. Look at the research. Look at the data You know we use medications off label all the time depressants which have a lot of side effects are used off label all the time and if you look at ivermectin and hydroxy correspondent very safe medication. So for the doctors who don't want to prescribe it. I always wonder what is what's the harm and trying. If you really didn't believe in it what would be the harm in trying the side effects being so minimal and for some more great question what i what i want to hire you. Let me ask you a question. What is family medicine. I don't i don't what is the difference between that. And general practice or internal medicine So geno cactus could encompass internal medicine or family medicine the difference between family and internal medicine as we family medicine have training in prenatal care pediatric and obstetric care as well. Oh wow and tell me what what what what. Ethnicity is vanni. Oh india so did your parents come from india. Yes yes they did. They emigrated in the eighties. Is there one indian family in america whose children did not become successful if you meet them have them call me a year. You are a joy. What a great question. Why wouldn't a doctor prescribed the dennis prager show live from the relief factor pain-free studio. We have a mexican friend. Eighty two year old mother and mexico tobin was in the hospital very low oxygen levels and difficulty breathing. She was given ivermectin pack home in four days as this last doctor said what is the harm and trying leave your doctor. If he or she won't prescribe ivermectin. Don't leave bitterly or anything else. Person doesn't even know that they've done something foolish. I asked the last doctor who called in. How does she explained the doctors who won't prescribe ivermectin and she had no answer which is perfectly legit said. It doesn't make sense because we're taught to think independently i liked. I liked her so much. I didn't want to Didn't want to put in as it were. that's not true. I don't think doctors thought to think independently. I think thought taught to think like sheep. That's where i differ with her as an outsider All i see your sheep when i see. Md there are some exceptions excel exceptions to every rule. There's there's no there's no group that is more sheep like their groups that are tied like professors of gender studies but they they are sheep. Cdc says jump up five times. The doctor jumps up five times. Jama writes this. That's the end. I don't have to inquire the journal of the american medical association. Said the sun is cold. The sun is cold and all these anecdotes about the sun providing heat their stanic total. Yep that's correct. Mike el segundo california. Hello mike i i know. For fact as many people know that since nineteen eighty six essentially three or four years ago. The new england journal medicine and the journal american association have been knowingly intentionally publishing nearly fraudulent unscientific bias research reports and They've been doing this to promote gun control. And most of these reports use multiple. Not just one or two but by the way let me just say. Forgive me. Because i have so little time. I you reminding me of something. What is what is the england journal of medicine doing reporting anything about gun control if they have an article about treating bullet wounds. That's that makes sense. You're he's right. Though they editorialize yes including on on racism no known worldwide as a medical issue is a biological issue. Good news male female hour coming up.

la county brett weinstein dennis prager american journal of therapeuti american medical association Brett weinstein Brit weinstein youtube barbara farrar andrew bryant theresa laurie Therese dow edmund fordham google Scott mitchell sarah hill Ulster hospital belfast washington post adam kroll
Episode 219: Multiplied by Mirrors

Very Bad Wizards

1:45:09 hr | 2 months ago

Episode 219: Multiplied by Mirrors

"Very bad wizards is a podcast with philosopher. My dad and psychologist. David pizarro having an informal discussion about issues and signs and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words. That i'm allowed to say and knowing my dad. Some very inappropriate jokes. He'll serve played pool salt on it Bad man postman plan. And with all reason you can have a very very good man. Just a bad quiz. Welcome to very bad wizards. I'm tamla summers from the university of houston dave according to a recent series of studies. I'm both more masculine and more sexually adventurous than you. This is more of a comment and a question. but i. i'm starting to like psychology again. I think that you're misinterpreting. I think what this is saying. That you're a slut pervert deviant. It is true with the paper. We're gonna talk about this paper in our opening segment on willingness to try new foods and perceptual perceptions of sexual desirability. But you know have some thoughts that will defend my vegetarian this from your gross attacks on your just unethical attacks but before we talk about that we should say we're gonna talk in the main segment. We're talking about two four his short stories because we always forget to say that amazon suzanne's and bore has and i both of these are combined like five pages. Readers should get their hands on it. Maybe we'll put a link to we can easily easily found. Even i was like maybe we should just read it. I was thinking actually read it in spanish. Yeah but i. You put this into the very bad wizard slack. The an article social psychology at. It's finest you are what you are willing to eat. Willingness to try new foods impacts perceptions of sexual unrestricted nece and desireability social unrestricted. It just means you do but stuff. Is there like a scale. There is of course there is. But it's the scale in this case would be. How sexually unrestricted you think somebody else. That's right this is all about perceptions. There's an there's an interesting question as to whether people's food preferences actually predict what they do sexually. And i think they taught they cite some work. Maybe that addresses this but this is about. What does it say about you. What do people think about you when they hear that you have food neo phobia unwillingness to eat like new zoo. Not unusual foods right and so. They have measures of sexual desirability and sexual restrictiveness. Then we have. Only one of them has a measure of sexual desire ability. The first study but yeah basically. The gist is across four studies. This and this is by hannah bradshaw. Summer mendel caulk matthew. Espinosa alex daryl. That's not a real. I don't snicker sarah hill and weirdly. It is from the department of psychology. They're all from texas christian. University's really gonna get to heaven publishing. This kind of filth. Saint peter's is gonna have some tough questions so the basic idea is just that if you see and other person as somebody who will try anything you know like there are people and i actually am one of these people who will try anything once. Yeah like whatever rat. Guinea pig raccoon like eat guinea pig. When you're in peru. Yeah i did. It was really great and it was the ultimate like free range. Guinea pig like i saw them running around like the little village and Yeah and it was actually good. I mean it's kinda good you know. I felt bad. 'cause they're they're cute. Yeah like i am. I will try. I don't like you know. There are certain things i don't like and then once i don't like them i won't keep eating them but we'll try things right and that's what the yeah that it really is about the willingness to try new things. It's not really about just like liking a lot of things but Yeah so they find in these studies basic the general template of studies. They'll ask they'll describe somebody in some cases just have been yet in some cases like a fake okay. Cubit profile So this is the vignette from the first Study austin goes out to a new restaurant in fort worth that has exotic foods from all around the world. He sees the name of a dish that he has never heard of before an entree and decides to order it when the food comes it looks kind of strange in one condition it continues but it doesn't stop him from digging in with gusto and then the other condition. It's an austin food with his fork. Smells it takes a few tiny bites before sending it back so then after the vignette and these were In some cases it was jessica. These are all heterosexual College students who. I like also like the the first one mic picks at the food with his forks smells it and takes a few tiny bites before sending it back like like. You're gonna think that person doesn't doesn't eat pussy. What a fucking little loser. You don't want it like fine but don't pick at it and smell it and do a little like fuzzy. He decides to order it. Which is kind of weird But but yeah i know. It doesn't stop him from digging in with this guy. And then following the vignette participants responded to items rating the targets. Desireability is a sex and romantic partner relative to others on seven point scales by the way so jessica was the name of the person who who men read about. Austin was the name of the person who wouldn't read about in each of these studies. It said not. All students reported a heterosexual sexual orientation. And i was like man. What are the chances that's true. It's texas christian university because he a little bit of pressure but they find that people perceive to austin the food with gusts. It'd be more a more desirable sexual partner than the other person in the neck studies. They use fake okay. Cupid profiles that describe that person. Saying i know a lot of things but i'm always up for trying something new and different. I'm pretty adventurous. When it comes to food or they say i'm pretty thick. I know what i like. And i stick with what i know. I've had it before. Probably have it again. Newer exotic foods are really my thing and they had people rate. This is like so they in in the following studies that that aren't study when they have people rate the What's so i. I'm trying to remember what socio sexual orientation inventory. This measure includes three sub scales which assessed behavior attitudes a desire for short term sexual relationships so basically like house letter. You're and also whether or not people were more likely to have had like how many people were likely to have had so which okay so just taking a step back it kind of meshes with my intuition that yeah true right yeah right so i'm vegetarian. You which. I could be seen as being picky. But i'm actually willing to try if it's vegetarian for sheriff vegetarian yet but also tried most meets at least once as because i was raised not eating meat. It just seems weird to me. But fucking steve stitch pressured me into trying fog. Yes exactly like the the talks like this guy. Fawkes seeks out like he seeks out like he'll go to a restaurant. We had him up in morris minnesota and he was still wanting to try something discussing. It gets all kind of disgusting. But it's not in the way that you want it this just like like casserole or like that But he is all about just trying to now. It will be interesting you know. I don't know. Steve stitched is sexual proclivities. If i told you my steve stitch about pluck story no but i think you should tell the just the world. So i was hanging out with him. This was actually the night after at a conference. It was like an apa night after right after he'd made me try foie gras and we were talking about john. Hi as we were walking out of the restaurant. I think it was. Maybe josh open. Steve and i was saying something about how john height is so soft spoken. He seems like such a nice guy and then he'll get up there and he'll put up these slides that are just like what the fuck right like fucking chickens and he has a slide with a picture of baby jesus but plug as part of his talk. And i'm like laughing and and nobody's laughing and stitch goes what the hell's about blood it's laughing and i'm like steve. What a man and a piece of plastic love each other tibi fair. He is if the generation mocking him. I wish i didn't know something. What about plug was the only meat that i've had That i didn't like in terms of the taste. Because i think in in most cases where i've tried meat it's been like somebody saying it's so good you have to try it so i've had like lamb roast over open spit at my family's farm in in argentina actually i had a taste of bacon. Cheeseburger at carl's junior teased. Good four tasted good. Is shaking carl junior stars in the second cheeseburger to try That's giving into the world of san. You really was even. I don't have that. But you taught me the worst thing i've ever tasted was shredded beef taco by mistake like an el torito. That tasted so gross. That i've never been able to like get myself to eat beef again but that particularly gross try. I've never had that. But like you shouldn't be going to carl juniors or whatever like tokyo el chico. You're going to know what that is. And you're saying that i should go mexican of you know mexican food. It can be really good. I live in really good city for mexican food but you might not have been the best place to by mistake. Also like biting into something unexpectedly is not the best experts in carl juniors. It's like kill people. Or was that jack in the box jack in the box with e. coli or something i forget but there was a series of killings that were like all trace back to. I think it was. Now i'm thinking it was jack in the box but it's like that didn't shut the place down the fact that like nothing will okay so back to this but here okay. So here's the thing so you might ask the question is this about general openness to experience or is it specifically about food and so they try to test this out in one of the studies were they they designed okay. Cupid profiles fake profiles where somebody says. I'm super open to all kinds of new things like books music. tv except for. I'm not when it comes to food. I'm pretty picky about that or the person said i'm super open to new foods black. I'm pretty picky about like books. Music and tv and they're trying to test whether it's general openness that makes people seem like they're more sexually adventurous and it seems as if it really is the food thing and so what they find is they. They say they find that that. It is These perceptions are correlated with perceived sexual disgust. So people think that people who are neo phobic when it comes to food are particularly easily disgusted in the sexual domain not the other domains of disgust and so they think that that's what's driving it. They do little mediation else's showing that that's what's driving by the way like i got a little depressed when it looked like this procedure. Data analysis like section or whatever because they're interviewing a hundred and something like texas christian university students and like kind of generalizing about like how like these enormous correlations between you know how people are perceived which. I agree also to some extent accords with my intuitions. But like the the the idea that they're going to be like and we did the t. value whatever of like like no. No no thank you. Let's be honest here right like you did and i know. They're not denying that they did undergraduate students like they even say that in limitation undergraduate students set up like religious institutes. But like but like just the idea that this like probably generalizes. But but somebody should you needs to. Do this. study to confirm that is insane and just the idea that like these statistical like analyses like are the things that really matter here. I don't know depressed but those are two different things right. The statistical analysis is necessary. Because even if you're showing it in a really restricted sample if there's no statistically significant difference than you don't have i agree it's just that it seems like that's almost secondary given the way the data was collected and also the thing that depress me wasn't that obviously you need to do statistical now says it's that it feels like when you like us this language which admittedly i don't understand. It seems like a cover covers over like the absurdity of what's being said based on the experiments that were done and even just the idea. Like i don't know maybe this is my bias for like not picky which i probably have but the way they describe the picky eaters seems worse than how like picky to actually is like the idea that they pick at their food and smell and like just do like or the person who like yeah. I'm open to a lot of new things except food. So don't even try to give me like food that i don't like as somebody who has picky about their art or they're you know what they watch that just seems like you have discernment you know. And so. that's that's a good point that you that you that your tastes about art book music tv say something more about your perhaps expertise in the domain. Yeah whereas not willing to try a new piece of food not like it's it's not like communicating that. You're like chef like you're like exactly but you're just communicating that like. You're not gonna be like every other doofus like watching black widow and thinking this is art. Eight black widow didn't perform that well and scarlett johansson is pissed off. She's suing about it. We should do. This is what people tune into our pocket streaming. You know the fact that a movie goes straight to three. Ming iraq means for the industry. Definitely seems like you know. It's like it feels more straight to video. I did take something away from it does. Yeah but okay but back to your point so that the stats might give it. An arab objectivity internalize ability. I think is was signing. I get it but like it's not it's not a fair critique of of the paper but i do think what is a fair well the in the round. Because as i said. I think they have to do this. But what is a fair. Critique is even though as you say they do mention the limitations. They have a paragraph. There is just something we've talked about this a lot. There is something about the way that researchers talked about the limitations of their studies. When as you say what they're communicating is that this seems like a generalize -able phenomenon and then they have one paragraph it says while the current research has many strengths and provides insights into directions for future research it also has a few limitations that should be considered. And it's like no like you know. I'm not going to be a hypocrite here and say like like i do think the generals ability is gets too much attention is a is a limitation. But in this case you can't. They're they're making such a little deal on purpose that it's like screams out right. This is almost like they have to do it. Like as a formality. But come on. We all know this jam. Yeah like this has many strengths. You might not think about it though but there are a few things that may be upon scrutiny. You might and you say like collecting data on sexual restrictiveness from a christian university. I went to a fucking christian university and like look we were like normal people but at least at least half of the students were not like normal people there like really going to say something else so like even having just a m turk sample in. This case would have been said something you know. I don't want to put too much weight on the christian. you like. I think any university like it's it's a problem muslim. suck too because what you're saying. It's when i said like i i don't think it's a critique of study obviously includes statistical analysis but i guess the depressing part. Was you know. This is a decent journal write. Well it's the same journal that published the last thing that we mocked very beginning to think maybe a mainstream to mainstream journal to mainstream. And it's you know like it just feels like that's the thing that they put in that then disguises these other like massive like screaming limitations that seem prior to The more technical statistical in other words like dealing with that seems like it's something that should be dealt with like before you start worrying. But i mean i know that. That's not that complicated. And you know i know you do both of them. It's not unfair though. I think. I think that it might be unfair to these specific people black because every every but but it is true that we like hyper focus on certain details. I mean this is something that like. There are certain things that social psychologists or maybe psychologist to do poorly. And you know we're learning more and more about what those things but even before i remember thinking Experimental philosophers would have these beautiful introductions to their papers with like this like really in depth conceptual and then they would do like a really shitty survey usually really poorly done in social psychologists would have these super complicated methodologically interesting manipulations all these different ways of measuring it but they're conceptual now who was like they were measuring the same thing twice. It was like dumb dumb or what they were measuring. It wasn't clear anything that yeah exactly. We normally associated with that concept yet. And so yeah. And i feel like i was always sort of on writing the ass of social psychologists to be more conceptually clear about that stuff but in this case like i think we have to be just a bit more clear about like this does implicitly and explicitly communicate that this is saying something about humans in general and it would be like if they just staged it as like this is a really limited set of studies. That'd be one thing but it wouldn't be hard to collect data from one other population it just to see just to see if they found the same thing in like look. But don't anybody look at my discussion sections. Because i'm sure i'm guilty of but we've actually had to do data collections or chosen to collections at malls. To get like a real people. Especially when we're talking about political orientation and it's like well. You can't generalize from cornell students right you especially about conservatism. These people are are not so we would go to. you know. We're surrounded by a red population so we would go to the mall and get like real people. And i think that's necessary. And i think the reviewer should have pushed for that. But i still still meshes with my intuition. I have a question though if you find out that. Somebody's like porn hub. History has like all kinds of shit you know like gangs but also like tender lesbian born. Would you assume that they would eat a lot of different things. It's the other way. I see that you like dsm but also. This is a study that you need to do like the future. Research futurists era should see whether prediction goes the other way you know all i know is now i finally understand why eight that bacon at carl's junior because i wanted the chicks around me to know this guy luke budi if he eats that he'll leaks and he will lick my ass and let me bog agam hang him upside down and think weapon. That's a good question actually like would you assume like if you go to like some. Snl dungeon do you then assume like if you see that person out at a restaurant that they're going to be culinary adventurist. I know experience with that either i. It's weird because i have like the people who are into that specifically. I could see them. Also being super highly regulated in their normal lives in a way that's right or they can be like me like i hate eggplant like but maybe if i was into that i would like make myself eat them because because the punishment eggplant i've been nadi needs more eggplant. All right let's turn to a couple of really cool stories from one of our favorites boras. Today's episode is brought to you by one of our all time. favorite sponsors. Give well donating money to help. People is a wonderful and selfless act. But you want to feel confident that your donations are improving lives and saving lives in the most effective way possible. How do you do that. 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Just pick podcast and very bad wizards or enter the code. Very bad wizards at checkout. Make sure that they know that you heard about give well from very bad wizards to get your donation matched thanks to give well for sponsoring this episode. Welcome back to very bad wizards. This is the time in the podcast where we like to take a moment and talk to you guys about how much i should say you guys. I'm gonna get cancelled y'all y'all and thank you for all the ways in which you interact with us. We really appreciate all the communication that you give us all the support that you give us in various ways we like being part of the discussion and we liked just observing your discussion. If you wanna talk to us you can email us. At very bad wizards edgy. Mail dot com. Or you can tweet to us at very bad wizards or at pease. Tamla you can engage in the reddit community discussion which was recently pissing. Tamla off Which is consistent with what we say and the about boar hessen. 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In more tangible ways you can give us a one time or recurring donation on pay pal or become one of One of the members of our growing patriot community And there's a lot going on and Over the last few weeks right. I'm You release the ghosts bonus episode you you then released an episode bonus episode on star. Trek's the inner light. Yeah with paul. Even that you and i had discussed that one already wanted to get in on it. He wanted to usurp you. I believe i. Yeah has anyone said which discussion they liked. Better though but but I feel like pulse trying out for for for once. I get booted up but we might do another one he. He liked it enough that that we do another surgery. You also are starting to release and you've already released one of your lectures For the five dollar and up listeners. per episode your interest ike lectures. Yeah that's right. So the interest lectures that i recorded for last year's class. I figured i wanted to share them. And i might drop a couple in there. 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I'm gonna start a very bad wizards anti-nato ism condoms with the little monkey on on the condo. Bigger the monkey. Maybe the monkey like as like you get an erection. The monkey also gets interaction. Can we though the ape you know like One of those big red doable. Yeah and thank you so much we really appreciate your generosity It it means the world tasks keep the lights on keeps us doing what we're doing and all right all right. Let's turn to our main topic so we're as said at the beginning of the episode. We're talking about two very short for his stories The first is emma zunes in the second is born for his is literally a page long. So emma zunes like five pages long so we'll put links it's freely available online so you should definitely read it But let's start talking about Emma zunes amazon's is a short story about a woman who takes vengeance for her father who recently died and had been imprisoned. She thinks unjustly for the crimes that a different person committed so she formulates a plan to kill this other person and she doesn't and i think that's the gist. So why don't we talk about. Tamla what did you think about amazon's. Because i'm the one who recommended curious how you liked it. Yeah and i was wondering why he recommended it. i mean this is a very jewish story Or has had a fascination with jews much like i think you have a fascination my peeps. We're outsiders looking in fascinated so a couple of things that struck me about it. It's the easiest has story to read by like a long shot like at least on the surface. It's i would say definitely on the surface. It's the most straightforward story of his that we've talked about you know there's all sorts of other things that complicate the straightforward revenge story and also like. I am a sucker for daughter. Revenge want somebody to wrong you so that you can see if your daughter will come to be killed by someone so that my daughter can avenge me just like it'll be worth it for me to die but no like i don't know like whoa my probably my favorite tarantino or at least it's up there is inglorious bastards. I devoted the revenge chapter and why honor matters to like three daughter. Revenge sophocles electra. Mattie ross true grit and then this. Laura blumenfeld who. i think. We've talked about who wanted to get revenge for her dad being shot by a palestinian militant And what. I'm trying to think why i like these stories so much I think there's something about the fact that the daughter is kind of you. Know a real the odds underdog story the odds are stacked against the daughter and all the power imbalance is usually massive in this genre and they all have to go to lengths that nobody else is willing to go to to to get justice to get vengeance and i think amazon's is the purest example of this kind of narrative given the thing that she sacrifices which i think no father would want right for their daughter but she is. I mean you didn't mention this in the very short summary. But she's a virgin. She's nineteen years old and as part of her way of framing. The person who she thinks framed her her father She has sex with scandinavian sailor And under the guise of a prostitute. She gets paid for it to yes right and so that she can then claim that aaron lowenthal He she can say that he raped her. And that's why he shot her like. It's you know it is a very it. Hits the beats of some of these of this complicated drawn because they're all complicated in their own way but but this one has like extra bore hayes. Complexities in the med. A narrative touches. I think there's a huge cloud of uncertainty about. What actually happened whether the daughter really is right that this guy framed her father and even whether the father killed himself or not and and so like while it's urge genre piece and you can read it in like five minutes which just isn't true of the other four has switched like make you like. It's like hard to get into some of them at first even though you end up just being obsessed with them but like this one is just like kind of easy to read. But it's still a boar has story in the end which i really liked. Yeah glad you liked it I i loved it. I loved it because of the the layers that he adds so emma zunes gets a letter that her father died from overdosing on a barbiturate actually and just infers that he committed suicide. Because the letter says that he accidentally ingested too much of this drug and the letters from brazil. She's in argentina She receives us letter her stump. You know her heart drops when she reads that her father has died. Her father is clearly living in. Brazil is a fugitive. Yeah he he had been accused of a crime and sentenced to prison but we know that he is taking a different name in his living in brazil so she gets a letter from brazil saying that he had died and she has what she believes to be the truth about the crime that he was accused of which is that the the crime of embezzling funds was actually committed by a person who owns the factory in which she works that her father worked for as well and her father had told her. This guy was really the guy who embezzled the the guy is now a co owner of the plant. A rich a rich fellow and Rich on the tip of my tongue. I didn't wanna insulting jews although he It's the name of the meal is tarbuck and lowenthal and given the alphabetic he's clearly second author of that's right so she you know she was his plan as you said to to justify her act by claiming that he assaulted her in the way that she does it is that she goes to this owner of the plant lowenthal under the guise of being a snitch that there's going to be a strike at the factory and She sets a meeting with him on the weekend and she knows everybody knows sabbath. Jewish sath right anything but and everybody knows that he. The guy has a gun in his drawer so with that knowledge. She sets up this meeting when he goes to get a glass of water after she's pretending to snitch on people at the factory who are going to strike by the way this guy is described as sort of. Yeah like a stereotypically greedy. Ju like he's fat. he's bald. He's clearly money hungry and at least according to the near according to an he is he. He married a rich wife. The wife died the narrator says that the guy always loved money more anyway and so she picks up the gun while he's getting glass of water and shoot. Some dead doesn't even get to say the things that she's been preparing to say like the whole revenge thing that she was going to say about her dad. She shoots the guy as he's dying. She tries to get it out but she's never quite sure whether or not the dying guy heard that this is why he was being shot. But i think this is characteristic of these kinds of narratives is the actual act of revenge. Doesn't go as avenger imagined but you know know you have this perfect justice being served the ideal like like a form or something in your head but what actually happens is just kind of it's clumsy. It's a mess wrestling. Because of course that's how would like how like nineteen year old. Jewish virgin isn't gonna pull off like the perfect act of revenge. Amazing that she you know if we are to believe the narrative as it's being related to us like it's kind of amazing that she did it as well as she did and has has that kind of interesting reason for why she got away with it. We can which is really why. I started doing saying in a ended up in a long summary but it ends with her reporting the the killing and saying that she was raped. Tell she's telling the story that she's trying hard to make herself believe it's very it. Seems like a very intentional kind of self deception but It's i think it's worth reading the last a couple of paragraphs when she's so this is her reporting the crime and then she picked up the telephone and repeated what she was to repeat so many times in those in other words something has happened. Something unbelievable send your lowenthal sent for me on the pretext of the strike. He raped me. I killed him. The story was unbelievable. Yes and yet convinced everyone. Because in substance it was true amazon's amazonas tone of voice was real. Her shame was real. Her hatred was real. The outrage that had been done to her was real as well. All that was false. Were the circumstances the time and one or two proper names. And that's one of the things i want to ask you about. Is the one or two proper names. Because i think that's a great you know that's a perfect little. They're like till like i think you can interpret like that in a lot of different ways but before getting there like maybe we should talk about to what extent me trust. What's going on in this story. Yeah because i think you can read this pretty straightforwardly and that's not an invalid reading. I think you know there are things that make you question. What is that. you're reading. But like i think you could just take it as this is what happens so her dad really did get framed. Her dad then had to flee the country and go to brazil which argentinians is torture and zest shameful and then just took a bunch of sleeping pills to kill himself right and so she came up with this plan which she executed. It didn't go perfectly but it went well enough for her to do what she set out to do. And to the extent that we're supposed to question the story it's moreover is this just is this. Did she do the right thing. So i think that's definitely one way of looking at it and i you know i definitely want to talk about like you know. Is this adjusting your child to do it especially given you know the specific thing that she does in order to make her revenge happen which is to like have sex with somebody that she deliberately chooses as a kind of like foul mouth smelly like it. Seems like there's a. There's a sailor she could have chosen. That was nice But she decides not to do that because she says so that there might be no mitigation of the purity of the horror in other words. So i think what she either way to interpret. That one is just for the plan to go properly. She has to be truly disgusted by what happened to her and if she shows any signs of like well that wasn't just a utterly repulsive experience. You know like the cops won't believe me but it could also be that she is. There's some sort of meaning to what she's doing. She wants that utter like pure sacrifice. The ultimate sacrifice. Worse than death know losing your virginity. Somebody that is. Yeah because the the the way that i read it initially is Sort of masterful way of preparing for the lie. That that disgust was truly in her voice when she reported the rape and so it seemed like a pretty genius. Way of making your life convincing to find the most disgusting sailor that you can but the way that you said as not just as a means of being truly disgusted but rather as a way to not insert anything pleasurable or nice into this act like to give herself the right to take vengeance right way right and she clearly didn't enjoy it she she has. There's a line that made me laugh about. She says she thought she could not help thinking that her father had done to her mother. The horrible thing being done to her now take that. Sailor did not eat a lot of different foods. We i wanna read that whole off. So she says in that time. Outside time in that welter of disjointed and horrible sensations did amazon's think even once about the death that inspired her sacrifice so presumably her father in my view she thought in which is interesting that he that the narrator says in my visa She thought about it once and that was enough to endanger her desperate goal because what she actually thinks. she says. She thought she could not help thinking that her father had done to her mother. The horrible thing being done to her now she thought it with weekly astonishment and then immediately took refuge in in vertigo so this is what like complicates on surface quote unquote surface levels. What complicates the narrative because you are getting revenge on behalf of your father but as part of that process you're having sex with somebody and the first thing you think. Is this guy who's who i'm totally repulsed by is like my father and he violated my mother in the way that i am being violated right now in harare. Like if that's that that's already like okay. This isn't going according to plan in terms of you know a perfect revenge narrative How this is supposed to go. It's like you are getting revenge on behalf of somebody who's doing something that is completely shameful. That's how she feels that moment right and then just to keep with this but she says right before she she shoots. Aaron lowenthal she says that so sitting before aaron lowenthal. Nfl more than the urgency to avenge her father the urgency to punish the outrage. She herself had suffered. She could not not kill him after being so fully and thoroughly dishonest. Tussaud a talk about like if what she's doing is some sort of pre-commitment strategy to make sure that she was properly in the mental state to shoot a man and so she let herself get violated. Its i mean pretty. Brilliant if that's what she's doing or is issue taken by surprise at this like it seems like the. The motive was enough because the motive to avenge her father got her to do that. Like horrible thing in the first place had sex like some dirty sweet. A swede or we know it says a sweeter finn but i said four norwegians racist but like there's also this like weird kind of reverse causation. Where like the imagine to act of. Revenge causes the act that ends up being avenged. She imagines killing him right. Like that's the goal is to kill him and bring justice to her father venture father but then that leads her to do something that is the thing that actually motivates her to kill her down the the act of revenge. The idea of revenge causes her to do the thing that ends up being the thing that that makes her avenger father right so the causation is. It gets jumbled their so. It's interesting so this okay. So this when i was thinking about what she did so the like why she let herself get fucked by the sailor by the way she rips up the money that the guy pays her. And it's it's a hilarious sort of like but that you immediately regrets having ripped up the money because it's an active in pieters which is like in this may be betraying my own heritage but like i get that which is putting out a dollar. Bill seems wrong. It seems like well you could give them ripping it up right right so i was thinking about why she had sex with the sailor nowadays everything well because they're going to do a rape kit. You know they're going to check whether or not she really had had sex. And then i was like but would they do that back then i get. She was a virgin. They might check other thought very reliable. They might check to see if she was still aversion to see if like her hymen was intact by the way. Hyman roth is also good connection. So i wasn't sure if she did it for the emotional reasons or for the physical reasons right. Could she have done this and just said she was almost raped you know like does she have to actually go through or said she was raped. And just like like would they were they check to see like for his sperm to be you know like what doesn't strike me something they would do but she she could've tried also to seduce lowenthal himself. Yeah he doesn't seem like. I mean like neither did the guy. But maybe he probably wouldn't have he'd be like look do you like i'm trying to put down the strike. Do you have any information for me or not. You're not that hot. I don't eat adventurous foods. So i inferred that this was commitment device an pre commitment device emotionally. But i don't know i'm like it's it would be some sort of twisted moral luck. Not moral luck but as you say that the very thing that she had let happen to herself was the thing that motivated her to pull the trigger. But we don't know if she would have pulled the trigger for vengeance reasons had she not been violated by the sweet or finn. There's also like. I really think like we talk a little bit about like when he like to. What extent any of this is. What's really happened like and you know. I think you're gonna ask that about a lot of things i whether he truly died by suicide. Which is the thing that she kind of like pushes her over the edge. I have to get justice now and then Because all she gets is a letter from somebody who she can't even read their name but to the extent that she can it says fain with an e or feign with an a. and so like fain like make make you know it's like know luge into the word fain f. e. i g. n. In english that was doing it for his definitely new and wrote in english so he would know and then just the way that the narrator then says you know after making it the this just letter from a total stranger who doesn't even know who he's writing to like. How did we get to suicide there. Based on like somebody some brazilian strangers saying he accidentally ingested an overdose verona. And then you you read a few sentences down and you get her just kind of memories Including the chekhov's yellow lozenges. Come back later. He says like at the end of all these little reminisces yellow lozenges on the window sale like her her mother who we assume is dad. Like anonymous letters about embezzlements funds like the dad being but then and then also on the last night. Her father had sworn that the thief was lowenthal Now one of the owners of the mill which she never told anybody and so it's like well just on the last day that he said that one. I'm is that enough for us to be sure that this that that's true. I don't know story want us to know it's she clearly has made a leap. I think it's interesting. Why should be so motivated to make that leap immediately But one of the things that i really liked as reading this allowed to nikki. Because i thought it was so powerful when she gets the letter her father's dead. This is what i want my daughter to feel. Emma dropped the letter. The first thing she felt was sink as a sinking in her stomach and a trembling in her knees then a sense of blind guilt of unreality of cold of fear. Then desire for this date. It'd be passed then immediately. She realized that such a wish was pointless for her. Father's death was the only thing that had happened in the world and it would go on happening endlessly forever. After i thought that was such a. That's how you want your so we'll just go on endless finicky but it seems like the kind of reaction that i would genuinely have upon the notice of a death of somebody. I loved where it seems like. It's the only thing that has happened in the world and it will forever keep happening like yeah it was. It's so striking and and in that grief. Her leaps to concoct this revenge fantasy. Make sense that this was born out of such a grieving person. So i really think that is open to question. Deliberately by bore has which does make one possibility that this is like an a revenge. Fantasy is you put it. That is concocted in some in some sense by her familiarity with like the genre that i love the daughter evanger. You know like she just kind of you know she has this job. She works at a steel mill. Or what kind of weaving mill. So she works at a weaving mill. You know where. Her father was disgraced and left. It's like she can now give her life. Maybe this is a pointless life from her perspective and she can give this life kind of romantic. I dunno like she can give it significance in some ways. I'm some kind of substance. That isn't just her going to work. And like pretending to care about then but being terrified by men and like you know so it definitely seems like that could be what's going on to like this reminds me of garden of forking paths which also had kind of on the surface perhaps a straightforward story. But at at no point did you were. You sure that this wasn't just fever. Dream of an a massive delusion on the part of the protagonist. Yeah and that's interesting because that's different than most revenge stories. Most prevent stories. The facts are pretty much stable. And it's just the ethical questions that are being they're always straightforward as my name is illegal montoya. You killed my father prepared. Yeah or like you know like unforgiven or like you know. There's no doubt about what actually happened. There's no doubt about whether the act that is being event actually happened. there's just the most. I'm sure they're exceptions to this. But this is like there's doubt at every level there is. You're you're right there is. I was thinking about this earlier. There's a a fuzziness to the whole thing like. Not nothing is quite certain. And it's it's well captured by the nine or ten sludgy lines covered almost the entire piece of paper all all just kind of there. She even seems to when she goes out to find a bar where you know she can pick up a cellular. It's described as in this way where she seems almost to dissociate when she's walking through the streets. Yes that paragraph right like to recant. This is the narrator speaking to recount with some degree of reality. The events of that evening would be difficult perhaps inappropriate one characteristic of hell is it's unreality which might be thought to mitigate hells terrorists but perhaps makes them all the worse where the narrator is just saying. Look i'm not like. I don't even think it would be appropriate for me to tell you even if i could. What actually happened that night. So i'm just gonna give you a a smudge vision of it. Yeah that's that's a really interesting twist on this thing where we don't even. Yeah we have no idea how this all went down at every level. Yeah i feel sorry for lowenthal to be the victim of such a fuzzy headed benjamin scheme. Where if it's right if he if you're trying to make meaning initially live and he gets shot for it. There is yells ebonyi cursing in spanish. Just like a whole bunch of just curses coming out of his mouth. Which would i would love to hear those cards. This cursing is great and even even the sentence she recalled or tried to recall her mother. There's just a fuzziness throughout you know what's going on mind. But the mother we don't know she recalled summer outings to a small farm uruguay which i just needed to say is in the province in argentina. In which i was bor- nice and and you can see her. Father is a last ditch effort to preserve honor. Yeah accusing this other guy. You know like so her. His daughter doesn't think of him as a total like fuck up and disgrace like giving her a little sense of. We're not we're not a shameful family we just got host so this is something i wanted to ask you for the last twenty minutes. What do you think is behind your love of these daughter. Revenge stories is it that it's the ultimate expression of love by the daughter to do this. I mean that. Is you know that was sort of in my book. I say that that was one of the functions of revenge. Like one of the good aspects of revenge is that it is an expression of love and closeness and loyalty exactly because of the sacrifice that you have to make the cost to suffer the risks you undertake but like what completely fucks that up. And what makes me think. I would never want my daughter to do. This is the part where she has. Sex with dirty sweden or a fan like that's her first sexual experience like there's nothing that could happen to me that that's what i would want true grit. She doesn't have to do that. She has to risk our life and she has to Electro has to do all sorts of things. But not that. There's something about that that it's especially bad to me that her thoughts about her father fighting basic getting rave. It's consensual but But it's not. It's she's being violated in some sense and that her thoughts would go to her father. I thought to myself if she's saying she's not she's just saying that. The act of sex is so disgusting issue as a young virgin having the drunken sailor. Fuck you the first time you ever have. Sex seems terrible. But i was hoping that she wasn't saying that her dad raped her. Or like i know she could be almost I know in the thought that she would have that. Thought like this is what men do has the thought that linked her to like. This is what my father did. I mean it's a terrible terrible thought like that. That would happen. Which is why that like when she actually kills him. It's not anymore out of avenging. Her father it's about avenging. The thing that happens the thing that men do. It's yeah. There's none of the kind of whatever i like about these kinds of stories and it's never uncomplicated. It's there's always all sorts of things that you have to question yourself and your reaction to it but but here there's these things are multiplied and and like you said lay layer upon layer of uncertainty by it that it actually just made me question like maybe this is kind of a romantic fantasy or something like of of the the the relatively powerless. Underdog the oppressed on behalf of her family. Like doing the thing that nobody else was willing to do. You know that that there's something wrong with even wanting that you know because this is this is how it could be. it could all be disgusting like uncertain. Messy mike the only thing that comes of it is just a bunch of yiddish races hurled. That you let's get down to the question that you asked about the and i want to read this last year again after we've discussed it for listeners. Because it's more powerful now that we've gone through the details then. She picked up the telephone and repeated what she was to repeat so many times in those in other words something has happened. Something unbelievable senior lowenthal sent for me on the pretext of the strike. He raped me. I killed him. The story was unbelievable. Yes and yet. It convinced everyone because in substance it was true. Amazon says tone of voice was real. Her shame was real. Her hatred was real. The outrage that had been done to her was real as well. All that was false where the circumstances the time and one or two proper names so the water to proper names. Yes the kind of mind. Fuck that bore. His would talk because in what she said. There's only one proper name right. There's only mr lowenthal and the one or two is just like what what does that mean. What's this what's the second proper name that was wrong. Was it the possibly other her father's name reference to her i. It's funny because i don't even totally have like an interpretation if you go the other way you know like so. It's not low enthralled that that raped her. It's this guy so here's one possibility. I don't know exactly how it works but one or two proper names could be like her. Outrage was real but maybe lowenthal didn't frame her somebody else framed. I didn't frame her father. Somebody else framed her father and so she got revenge on the wrong person. But i guess that would be the same name. It's just that yeah being accused of two crimes. He didn't commit her in in her mind. But like it is the tone of voice shame hatred and outrage all just a result of having sex with the sailor. Yes i think so right like that's the thing is that i think it is. I mean maybe the hatred is of lowenthal because she really thinks. He framed her father and not only did she. He framed her father but because he framed her father then she had sex with a dirty sweden thin. I yeah i don't. I don't exactly know what to make of that. And i think that the narrator is kind of interesting in this because it's not an omniscient narrator narrator but it's not a narrator that is just going by like events as the narrator hurt at either the narrator seems to have some sort of special access to what happened but also certain things that are closed off to the narrator and so i think it's also like the narrator is constructing some kind of story where the narrator knows some details but not all the details and and the narrator even has opinions which is kind of interesting like the in my view. This is know one thing we didn't talk about to paragraphs aggressor devoted to what she did that the day before. Revenge like getting together making sure that the day was normal as possible. She went to work then. It says she went to women's club that had a gymnasium and swimming pool She discussed with the younger girls which moving picture they would see sunday evening than there was talk of boyfriends expected to have anything to say in april nineteen but men still inspired in her and almost pathological fear. Home again she made soup thickened with manioc flakes and some vegetables. Eight early went to bed and force yourself to sleep. This funny details the unclear. Why i think she's like trying. I mean again. You could read it straightforward. She's trying to act normal like so in the end We don't know whether or not she's satisfied with this revenge. But that last paragraph or the last couple of sentences weirdly. The english divides it into paragraphs that the spanish one doesn't but it's like it seems as if he's hinting to the possibility that she will. This will in her memory. At least she might self deceive. She set this up so that hurt her. Emotional reaction is going to feel genuine. And that in the end she might have done this in order to truly believe that she was justified in killing. Right right right right right and in fact earlier she says how to make plausible and act in which she who can was to commit it. Scare scarcely believed how to recover those brief hours of chaos. That amazon says memory today repudiates and confuses so like it that just makes it seem like right now. She doesn't even really know what happened. Then like she was on autopilot. Maybe after the after the act and now she doesn't even know what happens. Which again. it's very again just throws into confusion. What happened at any point in the story. But there's an interesting line right after that where she where it says on the infamous paseo. Julio sorry for the pronunciation she may have seen herself multiplied in mirrors made public by lights so like i think that is like she may have seen herself just all these different versions of herself and she doesn't know version is the real amazon's and like that will never she'll never know. Maybe like you know there's a question of whether any of us know which could lead us to the next story but like i think that's an interesting image. That is very befitting of the story is this. She may have seen her image reflected by multiple mirrors like all. These different kinds of possible amazon. Ince's are preceding the act that was going to be her. Shame her ultimate change Super interesting it does seem like a dissociated act like her herself is breaking. The self of zunes is breaking into montminy different selves. And she can't even tell you what happened that night. Superchunk that multiplied by mirrors reminds me of the quote. We've talked about before says intone bar. And what orbis mirrors and copulation or abominable since they both multiply the numbers of men. Yeah no that's super interesting that her psyche is destroyed. It almost mirrors line. Yeah as as is the case with many historians. We just are. We know we're not giving the satisfaction of knowing and the narrator is never to reliable in this case the protagonist is to reliable either. Even she were telling us the story we wouldn't know. The ground is shifting beneath the reader at like in every possible way with this story and yet it's his most straightforward like. Thank you genre. Piece narratives unbelievable about this episode. Very bad wizards is sponsored by better. Help online therapy out. better help dot com slash bb. W you know as i'm getting ready to start up my semester. Everything is building up. And i'm feeling a whole bunch of stress and that stress is taking a toll on me on my relationships on the way i respond to people. You might be the same way you don't need to be me to know what stresses like or to know. What feeling down out or feeling depressed or having anxiety or feelings strain in your relationships if you want to if you're looking for some help and you want to talk to somebody who's completely unbiased about your life someone who's knocking judge you or take sides on anything. You might wanna turn to better help because when there are things. You can't really tell anybody or you feel like you can't unload on your family or your friends. You're probably already feeling like a burden to those people. That's what good therapy can do. Better help as customized online therapy that offers videophone and even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in person therapy and you can start communicating with your therapist under forty eight hours so unload the stressors. Get some unbiased feedback. You'd be pretty surprised at what you might gain from it. Just see if it's for you. This podcast is sponsored by better help and very bad wizards listeners. Get ten percent off of their first month at better. Help dot com slash w. again that's r. H. e. l. p. dot com slash w. r. Thanks to better help for sponsoring this episode of barry bad wizards. Should we move onto his. Yeah maybe that's a bridge you know this idea of multiple selves dot is certainly the central theme of this. Let me ask you as a way of transitioning. You're the one who suggested doing both of these. Why these two Stories so aside from them both being short There is a part of which i've always loved. There's a sentence in there where he talks about. He says years ago. I tried to free myself from him and went from the mythologies of the suburbs to the games with time and infinity. And it's always been an interesting move to meet by the way the word suburbs here is just wrong. It's just doesn't feel right. Suburbs doesn't that doesn't have the connotation that it does in in the spanish word it's more like outskirts like bad neighborhoods. We associate suburbs like. Yeah i actually don't have that. I have okay. Yeah and went on from the mythologies of the slums and outskirts of Yeah 'cause early bore his was more like straightforward narratives stories of like the knife-fights in the slums that kind of thing and we've never really talked about any of those stories and it is interesting for himself to mention that that's where i went from these more straightforward narratives of the outskirts and two games of time infinity which is obviously what i love like the part of that i came to love but these these straightforward stories. Aren't that straightforward. But i just wanted to read one of those annual was interesting to me that even what on the face of it would seem like a straightforward narrative of revenge was always peppered a little bit of you know there was bore. His late bore his sprinkled into early. Is he just you know. But you know like amazon's is in pretty late. Yeah it's pretty. It's not it's not it. It's like after the garden of working pads and library of. Yes it's so. Maybe you know for me straightforwardly. It was like let's read a straight up boroughs like story story. But do you want to read the whole story or should we just talk about it. Let's read it. People can sit. What's so short. We might as well read it. Let me do it since. I probably have the best chat transaction. It sounds like it's has the other one that things happen to. I walked through. When it's ra's and pause mechanically now perhaps to gaze at the age of an entry way and its inner door news of bore has reaches me by mail or i see his name on a list of academics or in some biographical dictionary. My taste runs to hourglasses maps. Eighteenth century typefaces at the taste of coffee and the pros of robert louis. Stevenson boras shares those preferences but in vain sort of way that turns them into the accoutrements of an actor. So what are you thinking right. Then like the that opening like what's he talking about. Okay there's a few things that just love about this so take knowing of the mail and seeing his name on a list of professors when he says one thing that i love when he summarizes what he's into. I like hourglasses maps. Eighteenth century typography. The it's such a rich just set of a description. It's something that i would to write about myself. Like i like you know the tang clan and fucking you know stories walks card tricks and so it just seems like it is very in dolt self-indulgence story he's like giving he's just sort of saying. This is what i like what the separation like. Yeah well the part that he he says. I received news of the other guy in the mail In this guy. Take all of the things that i like and makes them turns them into the performance of an actor. Just something that resonates with you. And i have talked about this before like this is not something that is limited to people like us who are podcasters or professors but certainly something that is true about our lives that we currently are turning the things that we are obsessed about into something for other people and i feel like that one lecture. I feel like that when i have office hours with students. I feel like that sometimes podcast and listened to myself. I like that. If i look at the list of our two hundred whatever eighteen podcasts it is like our sentence of hourglasses maps eighteenth century. That's what but it's turned into something else. Now it is. It is for other people. It is now external right. It's a role that i've played even though i was trying to be sincere right. I think that's an interesting question throughout this is is the boar has one way of reading that is there's this kind of pure essence of boras and then there's the public or has now that he is creating things for other people. He has a public persona. He is performing in some ways in. That corrupts it even though it was meant totally sincerely. And that's may that's definitely one way you can read it now. Like i think that like i had all these things that i was genuinely interested in. But now i'm adapting it to the fact that other people give a shit about you know what i care about and that makes it somehow through no fault of my own corrupted in some way but like the other way of reading it is that this is something that he that. He's mad at himself for allowing his public image to. I dunno attack his own more pure identity. Yeah it's like. I resist the public private thing. It seems to straightforward me. Even though i just said it right it seems as if it is something that we all do. There is a part of us that we present to the world that becomes the who i am is very much just a collection of who other people think i am and there's something in giving that to to all of the people around you who you interact with. You're giving them. You're performing something. You're giving them something of you then turns into its own thing and i can see why you might resent that like you might grow to resent that. You are not what other people like have of you. You are something else like but you know what. There's a lot of overlap between those two guys. Yeah right and maybe the other guy the guy that you're giving to others in your interaction is sort of infecting the pure version of what you imagine yourself to the way that he says in my translation in vain way that turns them into the attributes of an act. there is a vanity about sharing yourself to other like there's a weird vanity about it sometime self conscious about it it really does feel like i don't know vanity is a good word for it. It's i mean anyone who's just posted on social media can get this. You don't need to have a listen to you. Just need to have sent out a tweet or post made a facebook post or an instagram even heckscher or whatever your personality at a party or something like the thing that you're giving everybody else just comes a different thing. It's it's you just have to have had that feeling which i've definitely had of just all of a sudden you're hearing yourself talk and you're like carrying on in a certain way and doing something in the news like i do fuck. Is this that exactly right. Exactly right. it's one. It's it's one of the reasons that i found it. So hard ever listened to our own episodes right. I mean it is like an as somebody that has to edit like. They're like. I have to like just be like. Oh i'm glad. I got to edit out some of the worst ones. It's invasive almost although like what that even means because unless you feel like you have some sort of soul that's differ from your interactions with anybody like it's hard to totally make sense of what but but at the same time it does feel that way and by public. I don't mean like public in the sense that you know like tom hanks as a public figure but public in the sense that it's not just you and your thoughts. It's there is a sense where it's there's you and your thoughts and then there's how you act around others And so okay. Keep reading keep reading. It would be an exaggeration to say that our relationship is hostile. I live. I allow myself to live. So that bore has can spin out splitter chair and that literature is my justification. So that's really jogging. Boras can spin out literature. it's it's very like dismissed. He's just gonna pump out these like mind. Fuck store that's my justification. But then he goes on. I willingly admit that he has written a number of sound pages but those pages will not save me perhaps because the good in them no longer belong to any individual not even to that other man or his presumably not even to that other men but rather to language itself or to tradition beyond that. I am doomed. Utterly inevitably to oblivion and fleeting moments will be all of me that survives in that other man. Now it does seem like this is something that is maybe more particular to somebody who has a has achieved some level of fame and a public persona. I don't know what do you think. Yeah but but more. Because that's who he is not certain like that's the way that he has to describe this feeling because that's the circumstance of his life is that he has written things for the public. He's like because. I think that this is a feeling that anybody will have. Boys would think that anybody who have it. It's just that in his case it's like you reading yourself in wikipedia. I can't say that for myself. Also talked about alex says it because i always like the houston crime story where they interviewed me. That's the only reason. Yeah i'm really intr- it's it's really interesting. Though to where he describes his work as the thing that justifies him. I'm like i don't. i'm not sure. Yeah that he allows himself to live so that bore has can spin out his literature and that literature is my justification. It sounds like like what does he mean. I allow myself to live. It's it's like the self that is truly me. The board has the. I is what caught like has to like. It causes all of the things that bore his. Does i willingly admit that he has written a number of sound pages but those pages will not save me baha. Perhaps because the good in them no longer belongs to any individual nor even to that other man but rather to language itself or two traditions. So he's saying like even the good stuff that i have done not the bullshit not the stuff that he is kind of corrupted and turned into his little games turned to my real intrinsic curiosities until like fodder for these cool stories. That people seem to like but but then he says that like even like the other has isn't saved by those because once they're out there they belong to everybody all of our podcast once we put them out like they belong to america liked to the world the world. Yeah homo sapien. Yeah i mean there's something that's so true like the thought of all of the people who are trying to interpret bore his at this stage in his life having seen all of those people say like well this is what bore has said and this is what he meant and this is what it means. It seems like you have to come to terms with the fact that the things that you produced are linked to you in some some sense but there are no longer up to you. It's it's interesting. I think more hit or not yours not yours anymore and you have to let go. You can't like. I think an artist would might find a struggle to correct the people who were speaking about his work or her work and realize it somewhere they they have to at some point realize that they can't the the can no longer speak with the about what this work means. Because it's means something to everybody who's read it in a way that separate from you now that you've done it separate from you so not to compare us survey talking right but do you ever get the feeling. Sometimes when there's some long reddit thread On one of our episodes that we go in there. It's almost like we're doing a bad. Yeah recently like. I'm not gonna comment on this because i think it would ruin the discussion. Exactly which is interesting that you would do that. And especially since. We're not putting out works of art. There are artistic elements. You know they can take. Your beats are pure art art in its purest form. It's interesting that he puts it in the terms of salvation or saved though. Okay let's i'll keep read on beyond that. I am doomed utterly and inevitably to oblivion and fleeting moments will be all of that survives in this other man. So it's like something that like. It sounds like there's this kind of pure self and but it's slowly getting gobbled up by the the interactive self or something like that right little by little. I've been turning everything over to him though. I know the perverse way. He has distorting and magnifying everything. Spinoza believed all things wished to go on being what they are. Stone wishes attorney to be stone and tiger to be tiger. I shall endure in boras. Not in myself if indeed i am anybody at all. It's a great. But i recognize myself less in his books than in many others in the tedious strumming guitar. Quite i mean. I mean yeah like i wanna go on to this next part which i think. We'll have a lot to say but what do you i. I like this idea that it's you start. I it just devours you slowly until you and you start to window is an interesting idea so that you know like like you know it's like a whole that's close like closing in on you and your impact meeks less and less of a difference right. It's a. I mean they're something that seems to resonate for me just so much. Which is the part. That feels like you. That's subjective inner sense of self as you live as you produce things as you whether those things be utterances in public or whether they're works of art or whether they're you know whatever whatever it is that you're producing those things if you're lucky get bigger than you. They and for someone like his. You know the sirri surreal. That must be to experience listening to other people. Talk about you and your works or write about you and your works were us starts. Seems dissociated seems like man. That's a different. And you. And i have had this feeling i both in my writing for sir in my podcasting and in my luxury and then i even forget the things that i've said to the point that upon hearing them or reading them they seem foreign to me but that is what i'm leaving that is the that is what i will be two other people. Those things are the only thing that can possibly persist gone and we work in a form that allows us at allows some degree of connection between your personality. And i think like podcasting is the best example of that. Where i feel like i can be as close to myself as i can in any kind of public forum but like I think bor- hess's writing. He's in a genre. His form of expression his way of interacting publicly with others is one that is so kind of cryptic and like all the multiple mirrors from amazon's right. It's like it's so disassociated. I i would think like i. You know trying to imagine what bore his is like. Based on his stories is really difficult. I could imagine so many different kinds of ways of understanding him as a person you know heap by also seemed like a person who was uncomfortable with that public nece in. I think i told the story wants to have a friend of the family. Who wrote his dissertation argentinian. Gut uncle dissertation number for his poor his reaction was. Don't you have anything. Swear you have something better to write about me let gray. It's very reluctant when he says that. He recognizes himself. Lessen his own books that in many others seems to me that that is the feeling so like i my deepest interests right like i whatever i love. 'em newman and picking locks or something. I see myself in those works of art or in those youtube videos. That is me. Like i feel most myself when i'm indulging my own interests by reading other people and so that's where i might recognize myself. The things that i promote that other people are doing you know. I am now recognizing myself in bore his stories. That's such a fundamental part of my interests and why love that is now part of me in bore his by realize that and say like that those now now the those stories are things that other people recognize themselves in. I recognize myself in robert louis. Stevenson that's what i regard An hourglass you recognize yourself. And like ila matic's community that that's interesting. You know like remember what we were saying about writing public pop philosophy or pop science you know and just the kind of alteration that you have to do to your kind of pros and start lead off with the store. Yeah i've done that voice. They'd have to davos and it's not you in like you know like i think the the best you can do is make it as much as possible but you really can't and so and then i'll read like you said like i'll just see some other great work of art that just feels like a captures My essence or at least what. I take myself to be so much better than the thing that i'm actually putting out there. That's gotta be very strange. Yeah i mean. Think about like if i had to put myself together with building blocks those building blocks would be other things minus. They wouldn't be things that i produced like. Those are other right. The bad news bears like that's the transformers cartoon's are me. That's that's what built me The laborious guitar. I can only assume that. Like he's he's referring to music that he likes 'cause they're also i don't understand that and why laborious then and many other books or in the tedious drumming. Maybe he's just saying like even the tedious strumming of again closer to me than that So then he says years ago. I tried to free myself from him. And i moved on from the mythologies of the slums in the outskirts of the city two games with time and infinity. But those games belong to bore has now and i shall to think of other things so my life is a point counterpoint. Kind of few and a falling away and everything winds up being lost to me and everything falls into oblivion or into the hands of of the other man and then the second paragraph last sentence. I am not sure which of us it is. That's writing this page so so good. That's perfect little story and that last part is so in some ways pessimistic. It's like even when i just branch out and you can think like everyone has this idea like i'm doing some new totally new project like this thing that i've been doing is tired and like the real me. Israel is interested in these things. But then you're persona ends up gobbling that up to and there's just no escaping it and you are doomed to just just have everything that you do be appropriated by your like your other persona your public persona and to the point. Where even you having these thoughts even us having this conversation which we're doing on the podcast like and like surely that's corrupted by just the medium that we're even having this discussion in the i totally and just even thinking about it like even reading the story knowing that we're gonna talk about it. There is a dispute that despair toward the end. There is just you could feel it now. Just those games belong to or has now and now i'm going to have to think about the things and and then data end. I don't even know which of us wrote this. Because he's writing his inner feelings and now they've become a bore his story. It's just so good. It's so good and this is something more has do you turn this like inner crisis into some cool little story. I like oh man so good. It's good so yeah. I get that feeling you know we you know. We've we've produced work and we've produced podcast upsides and there are things that we were interested in ten years ago or whatever that we've were less interested in now but that's but somebody might think. Oh that's you you're into like you're the guy who's into that. Not really. I was like i'm not anymore. If feels like almost someone falsely recognizing someone accusing you of being someone. you're not it does feel associative. And just the idea that he went in this whole new direction and then still couldn't escape the fundamental like curse of human beings and he doesn't seem like a particularly social guy for house. Which is that you have to interact with others and you have to have a personality that is that is public not necessarily as being a famous author but as being just somebody who interacts with the world and no matter what you do in your private moments that will end up being just gobbled up by this personas. No no what you won't end up knowing who's who don't want experience as you experience you the there is it will it will the you that is belongs to the world. Can you think the private you can never be shared in that way. So of course it's going to be gobbled up in the public you will end up influencing the private. that's the thing is invaded. It's like the other is like a beast devour. It makes me think that. I've always thought of the profession of acting as being very odd. Because you're always portraying someone else and it always struck me that actors must. It's it's always made me. Think twice about what an actor is and what their personality truly is because they lose themselves in their roles their job is to be other people and it's always seemed a little weird and fake to me that like or like suspicious of who the real person is. But now i'm thinking that might be the most genuine profession that there is because you a very clearly no self-deception portraying someone else but we're all portrayed someone else. We're just deluded in thinking that we're portraying ourselves that's just like they're at least being whereas we think that like there's a kind of genuine now and that's yeah. I think this is something. That is completely universal. And we're talking about our experiences. Everybody unless you are a hermit in a cave You can relate to the power of it because yeah it's not. I would be saying this in private conversation. If i knew who. I was except for my immediate family and a couple of friends like it's same thing I you know this this is like the snooty est thing to say ever but there is something about reading it in spanish. That is powerful in a way that like i feel. I don't feel it in english but that's probably just because you're the private really embarrassed. That's it that Know but i can imagine that's totally true reading something i think a lot of it is not for the language reasons but just because there is some feeling that you're closer to what the author and this is like what he actually their interpretation especially a story like this which about like just multiple like you could look at this. We have to stop but we but but you can look at. This is a again like a former ideal of bore hess and then there are these increasingly corrupted copies and images that are that. Go out for the public as an artist as just of a friend as I guess he never got. Did he get. He never got married. But as as as you know in his profession when he was alive burien like there's all sorts of like just corruptions of the. The true bore has but i think that he's too savvy of like thinker to think it's that simple that there is that there is this essential boras like platonic form of morehouse. That is you know than just gets transmitted and all these other ways. But i think there is something to that idea that we can all relate to that there is. I think it's especially true when you're young released more true. Sometimes when you're young where just where you feel like the real you and they you that presents to the world are just two completely different people you know and and we have a way of making sense of the real me without thinking that there's some sort of assets or soul or something like that. Well that's i mean that's the part that makes it confusing. That's the part that is like i understand. There is like a relationship between who i am to the world and who i am to myself there is but like and so i am like myself is sort of influence like i'm you know my life is a flight like it's a you know it's it's not. Yeah it'd be weird. It would be dumb if it was a platonic south. That's pure are you know. It's it's just. I don't know who that self is now anymore. Like in some ways. It's hard to even know which one is. That's why the ending in the confusion of like i'm not sure who this is so great because it's like yeah i am my self. I am price. Both both of those are his. But i can't shake the subjective feeling that the me that that i feel the me. That was me when i was ten. That's the same me that i am now is is now lost sort of all of the other things like i like not just because there's this private thing in the world sees me as this other thing but also because the both of those are part of me you know like it feels better to to think that they're closer together then when i saw that they were further apart like he painted as despairing that like the real but in some ways i feel like that the good thing is when you don't feel such a disconnect between the person that's interacting with others and the person that you are and it sounds like he doesn't feel that when he says he's losing like over time he's losing everything and everything will belong to oblivion or to him that is in. I mean in some sense like when you die. It's true right. Bore his survives in all of the things that he did but like that part that matter to him is lost oblivion and the bar has that survives is not. The boss that he feels is true. Feel or at least that this aspect of or has doesn't it really feels like somebody just reflecting under life at the end of of their life when he wrote this though. It's nineteen sixty. But i love that last little bit. I don't know which one of us is is. It's because it is it. Does it turns into kind of a boar has mind fuck you know at the end and so like it's like oh this is what he you know. He takes something that's genuine and upsetting and he turns it into one of his mind games. So it's like even just like unburdening himself in this manner isn't can't save him nothing. They can't say he would have been sick when he wrote this. All all right we sit. Wrap up right so we don't know who it is that is that has recorded this podcast. I do hate that person. The record two hours and twenty minutes. Imagine how i all right Join us quote unquote us next time. Very bad plan with brains and you were can have married fast. Very good man just to say that wizards.

carl juniors emma zunes texas christian university amazon Tamla David pizarro tamla summers austin hannah bradshaw Espinosa alex daryl sarah hill lowenthal steve stitch john height carl junior Guinea tokyo el chico jessica aaron lowenthal
#9 De autobuses apestosos a destinos cruzados, con Diana y Iosu

Podcast RadioViajera

53:19 min | 2 months ago

#9 De autobuses apestosos a destinos cruzados, con Diana y Iosu

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Cynthia Kenyon: Living Longer?

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

43:56 min | 2 months ago

Cynthia Kenyon: Living Longer?

"Isn't it nice to have something that's fun to eat and good for you at the same time. Cheerios or one hundred percent whole grain oats in shape. We've come to associate with funds since we were kids and now that we're grown up. We can appreciate what they can do to help. Keep us healthy. Learn more about a heart healthy lifestyle. Cheerios dot com and find. Honey nut cheerios. Wherever you shop for syria. I'm alan alda. And this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. First of all have to say. And i always say this because it's very true. We don't know that the drug will have an effect at all in humans. We don't know that's the first thing but let's suppose they do as as we know it would be as though it would take you two days to ages much as you now age in one day. Okay so you would spend a lot more time being young but then you would also spend more time being old. There's one more thing that's good. Which is that in animals. These drugs they seem to have very beneficial effects on diseases. There's less cancer at the heart is is much better. It seems like the brain is better so it's not really clear what will happen but at least if we go by what we see an animals. The diseases of aging seem to be pushed out. That is later in time and if anything. They seem less severe that cynthia kenyon twenty years ago i sat with her in her lab at uc san francisco and watched one of the most remarkable microscope. Images i've ever seen before. Or since two miniscule worms nematodes one. Vigorous and unblemished pockmarking lethargic. It both the same age. Cynthia had changed just a single gene in the first worm which now live twice. As long as it's geriatric companion. It was a major turning point in the study of aging and it opened the door to a flood of research offering the possibility of extending not just the worms life span. But yours in mind. This is so great to have a chance to catch up with you again. you know. i've been reliving the day we spent in your lab twenty years ago. I've been reliving for twenty years and giving my friends of blow by blow account of what what i saw. It was one of the most interesting conversations i ever had a lap. You were letting us know that on the horizon somewhere is the possibility of our living a lot longer. Yes and that was twenty years ago. Would how are you doing with your worms. Now that you got to live twice their life span. Well first of all. I want to agree with you that i mean. The significance of that was amazing. You change one gene. Only and the whole animal ages much more slowly and lift twice as long. And it's just a little worm so you could say well it's just a worm thing which people said but then people change the same gene in fruit flies which are different from the little worms and they also changed a similar genes in the mouse and an all these cases the animals age more slowly and live longer a lot longer. And so i think before that time. We didn't think it was possible. People used to think well you'd have to. You'd have to have one one way to fix the skin and other way to fix the heart. The intestine everything. You would be very difficult to fix everything so the idea that you could change one gene. In fact one dna base pair one gene have this whole transformation. Changed everything really. Why is it that changing only one gene can affect the whole system. It turns out that the gene that was changed is kind of a master regulator so we change one gene gene that we change what changed controls other genes is a whole it really orchestrates. A huge number of genes. Like thousand or so so many things change in the animal and the end result is that the animal is much more. Resilient it's resistant to all sorts of conditions that would normally killing like high temperature. The wrong salt concentration Pathogens many many things practically everything what it tells us is that animals have the ability to be a lot more resilient than they normally are and that will increase lifespan. So there's something. I don't quite get here. If there's a gene that can help resist pathogens and other life threatening situations why doesn't nature thinks gene to start with. How do we wind up with a gene. That's making die when it is well first of all. It looks as though during evolution. The set point of the system changed so that you're just born animals with longer. Lifespans are just born being more resilient so it says if what you can turn on in the worm this resiliency program By changing gene has already been changed in evolution so that it's on at a higher level normally in animal. That's maybe part of the reason that say a mouse live longer than a fruit fly. But even then in the mouth and the fruit fly you can still hit the system and turn on the resiliency. Even more you've seen mice live how much longer than normal about fifty percent longer than normal. There's a whole network of interacting genes here and depending on which. When you change you can get a very large effect or a smaller effect. Also the other thing is there's a drug called rapamycin that an i. We didn't know this when we talked twenty years ago it wasn't known yet. And if you give worms or more fruit flies or mice this drug you can extend their lifespan. Humans can take that drug and we don't know yet whether it will affect their aging in their life spin or not we don't know. Do we know about the side effects of the drug. Yes this drug has side effects. It's taken for people who have had organ transplants. Normally the immune system of the body will reject the organ. But if you take this drug it doesn't so it that comes with side effects however it's possible that if you had a lower dose of the drug or a slightly different drug that maybe you could get some of some more benefits with without the side effects and actually there are researchers at the university of washington who are conducting a study in dogs now. Pet dogs giving them low doses of this drug rapamycin to see whether that will make them healthier l. Extend their lifespans. Ooh i remember when we talked twenty years ago. He painted this really lovely picture of when you change the gene. They looked half their age. So what started to worry me. The more i thought about it around year. Two after we talked. I started to think well if i live to two hundred will i look and feel the way i did at one hundred so for the next one hundred for the next hundred years. I'm looking like hundred-year-old looks now. And and getting worse. So is that the wrong way to look at it. When lewis will we be would the longer we stay alive the older will be for the longer. Time is my my worry so good. That's a very good point. First of all have to say and i always say this because it's very true. We don't know that the drugs that we could make to hit. These genes will have an effect at all in humans. We don't know that's the first thing but let's suppose new let's just As far as we know it would be as though it took you at age. It would take you two days to ages as much as you now age in one day. Okay so you would spend more a lot more time being young but then you also spend more time being old on the other one more thing that it's good that is good. Which is that in animals. These drugs they have. They seem to have very beneficial effects on diseases. Less cancer. heart is is much better It seems like the brain is better. You know. I think. I think i understand something that i didn't understand before. We started the conversation. Because i was thinking that we get all these reports that the longer we live as of society the more among us will have alzheimer's because it hits older people. Moore's it'd be more cases but it sounds like what you're saying is it's not just a question of living longer. It's a question of living longer with this gene altered or knocked out so that we're able to resist diseases like alzheimer's we seem. We seem to push out. Yeah like dogs dogs get old and infirm. And then they die and so they're they're old for a while but not that long. Humans already spent more time being old infirm than dogs do because they have this longer longer lifespan. Everything scales going from dogs to humans pretty much so it's not really clear what will happen. But at least if we go by what we see an animal's the diseases of aging seemed to be pushed out and they see that is later in time and if anything. They seem less severe in the course of this. You've discovered some things that had never been known before about what effects longevity. What what were some of those things on. yes so now. I think we know a lot more about what we would call the molecular mechanism. Fit allows these worms to live so long and one of the major Mechanisms is Is a process. Called autophagy. So auto means self in fiji means eating so actually means eating yourself who sounds horrible but the cells of your body they have a garbage disposal in them which allows you to actually a whole recycling station which allows you to take parts of the body and grind them up and realize the material and that process is much higher in these long lived animals the ability of them probably the turnover unnecessary unused material or damaged material and make new good material out of it sort of recycle. Its parts and that it's up in the long lived mutants and it's required for their longevity so if that process is not taking place the process of recycling these parts is it like a building with old rusty pipes that they just keep using the rusty pipes because they're not replaced with new one thinks. So it's kind of like that. Yeah and also as you age There are you build up kind of Gunk in your body called Aggregated proteins protein aggregates in the for example the brains of alzheimer's patients have some of this plaque in it which just aggregating proteins and autophagy is a mechanism that can recycle that stuff but we also know from work of other people that there are other ways that you may be able to stay young for a longer time for example. I just tell you something that's really blows my mind. It turns out that if you take an a skin cell for example from an old animal you can make by cloning. You can make a a whole new animal out of it. Remember dolly the sheep. So that's that case where an old cell lose. Its oldness and can become young again. Well it turns out that it looks like it may be possible to to take an old animal and just briefly. Expose it to the same kinds of gene changes that happen when you take an old cellmate. Young again If you just do it a little bit it seems like you can rejuvenate aspects of the animal for example david sinclair's lab at harvard has shown that you can make old blind mice. See again and you can end the lab of One carlos spill monte at the salt has shown that if you do these just pulsed an animal a little bit with just give it a little bit of this youthfulness It's called a reprogramming or yamanaka factor treatment that you can actually rejuvenate aspects of Wound healing the pancreas. You can take some mice at age prematurely you can extend their whole life spans and make them young again or younger than they would normally be. So that's seems to be a completely different kinds of biology than this resilience biology. I've been talking to you about seems to be the ability to roll back the clock. Just the the problem is if you do it too much. Then your whole body will turn into become like an embryo and you'll disintegrate. So you have to be very careful about it and no one knows how to do it in a careful way but people are working on it so i think that's really a very exciting thing that's happened to the field of aging that now we have more ways. Possibly of of staying young longer is another lab. The lab of judy camp easy in the labs of yang vendors in and other people have shown that There cells that accumulates in your body called senescent cells when you get old and their inflammatory cells so they cause inflammation and they also seem to lead to a lot of diseases. And if you just get rid of them then you can have beneficial effects on unhealth span. You're much healthier and you have beneficial effects on a lot of different kinds of diseases like perhaps cancer but also fibrosis. This is in mice. We don't know yet about humans so there are lots of other possibilities on the horizon now. So you're working now on longevity at a company called calico writes what's changed in the past twenty years that i know about to keep up with you. I think that people in the world are much more excited about the possibility that we can really slow down aging in humans and that will be beneficial. I'm not talking about doubling lifespan. Or anything like that. I'm just talking about aging more slowly and you being able to use that That ability also to counteract a lot of different age related diseases. All at once and calico is a company. That was That was founded to learn more about the basic biology of aging to harness that information so that people could live healthier lives and i really wanted to be part of that so i went to the company partly because i thought i could have an effect in an educational way. I've been working on aging for many years. I know a lot about it. So i thought i could help. People in the company learn more about it quickly. 'cause people from all over with all sorts of different backgrounds joined the company and also. I thought maybe i could try to help. Actually slow down aging by by moving this kind of helping to move these kinds of indications into the pipeline. Yes so and calico is a company that it it really is three things. It's basic aging research operation. It's also a company that just takes innovative approaches to counteract age related diseases so for example calico has in the clinic new compounds to fight cancer. That may not have anything to do with aging but then it also has this kind of sweet spot where it from my perspective where you could also try to counteract diseases by introducing drugs. That may slow down the aging process as well. And that's where i am. That's where i want to be. That's why i went there. So have you thought about some of the effects that may be made occurred to society. I mean you you may be in on new era for us and in the course of that have you thought about some of the effects that society made have to might have to worry about like if have a whole lot of holding people. Do we have to have to worry about caring for them. You know the thing is we. It's complicated First of all science. It was only really the work that i was telling you about with these mutants that made you live so much longer. The worms live so much longer before. That people didn't think you could do anything about aging but they did think you could do something about diseases and the reason i thought that is because somebody get some people get the diseases and other people don't so why don't we make the ones that get the diseases more like the ones that don't so we've been trying to cure diseases for a long time. We had a lot of success. So blood pressure medications for example many other things and so the consequent even antibiotics. The consequence of that is that people who would have died. Don't die they live and they're older. They're rate of aging hasn't changed but they're not dead so as a consequence the demographic distribution has shifted so that we have this very well known we have a higher percentage of older people in the population. Then we used to And that's it's an issue. It's an issue. Old people have a lot of wisdom. they have y- of ability to to do things so they're not you know it's a good thing but at the same time it is a shift when you talk about changing Aging so that you age is much. It takes two days to ages much as she would normally agent one day. If you snapped your fingers and suddenly everybody was aging twice a slowly. the world would look the same. You couldn't really tell the difference who just you know. As long as reproduction is shifted out and so forth would looks pretty similar so overpopulation is a problem. It was a problem with rabbits australia while ago. They almost took over completely. It's it can be a problem with any animal who's doesn't have a where there's no way to limit the population growth and the main driver of population growth is how many children you have and how old you are when you have those children and also obviously things that would kill you if you have predators sort diseases and so forth and so i think if we if we doubled the lifespan but also had fewer children which were already having on the world anyway or had them the later age which is also happening. There might not be the same. The kind of Horrible effect on on the burden of the world. That you might you might fear. I also think though that changing people so that they can remain healthy for a longer period is a good time. There's always a chance you'll get run over by a car. There things that happen to you there wars there things happen to you that will happen independently of how old you are. So i think on average you would have a more vibrant society. So i i you know unless. All bells roses. It's not necessarily that way. But i don't think it's as horrible as it sometimes seems you've also made me understand that i've been responding to the shiny object of lounge. Seventy when in fact the point you made from the very beginning of our conversation is you're dealing with resilience and you're increasing the person's resilience. Hopefully so that. What we think of his old age may not be old the same old age our grandchildren. Great grandchildren will experience. That's cheer when we come back from grace. Cynthia kenyon tells me how her discovery of the gene that controls aging was the result of her refusal to take no for an answer she also reveals what she does her own life to stay younger longer. Clear and vivid can be downloaded for free because it supported by our sponsors and by as they say people like you but there are no people like you. You're you we wanna make sure you know about patriot. Dot com slash clear and vivid. That's where if you love hearing from the extraordinary guests we have on our shows. You can become a patron and get early access to special videos and at the highest tier you can join me in our monthly get together online. I think you'll find out that the listeners to our podcast are often as much fun to hear from his our guest. We're grateful to you will thank you. And don't forget to check out. Patriot dot com slash. Clear and vivid. Seems to me if you are what you eat. Then it kind of matters where what you eat comes from right. The wild alaskan company gets it seafood from alaska and the pacific northwest. And it gets it wild. It's never farmed or modified and it contains no antibiotics. Wild alaskan company delivers this high quality sustainably sourced wild court seafood. Right to your door. He can choose from salmon whitefish recombination and every month you can explore different specials. One hundred percents satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. Get you nutrition from nature with wild alaskan company and just in case. They didn't mention it. Before this fishes wild and right now you can get fifteen dollars off your first box of premium seafood. When you visit wild alaskan company dot com slash alda. that's wild alaskan company dot com slash. Older for fifteen dollars off your first box. Wild alaskan company dot com slash old. Make sure to use our url to let them know that we sent. You is clear and vivid. And now back to my conversation with cynthia kenyon. I saw talk. You gave to graduate students and it sounded to me like your whole life has been one of innovation and exploration. It didn't take the the pad the conventional path ever teams. You in your work. You seem to have questioned the paradigm. Is that the way it really works. Even even though it's still everybody says it was put it but just in your schooling in the time you took off. Tell me a little about that Thank you it was a last girl. Leadership Lecture that i gave to the graduate students and it was just a couple of weeks ago. Actually i. I think this is true of a lot of scientists. I i think somehow. I think i don't know my father was dogmatic so i started thinking. Why no that's not true. You know what it was or maybe it's just me. Maybe it's just born into you but i always did. I always did question authority. In fact. I was diagnosed not diagnosed. I had a friend who saw a therapist is. She had a problem. And i was her friend so i went to the i. Was there one time when the therapist saw her and he pointed a finger at me and said this girl resents authority and i was like at the time and you were checking. He said that about me gratuitously. I was not his patient. But i was just there anyway. Yes i think that's always been something about me and always trying to think through things by for myself. Always inventing little gadgets and yeah i voiced on that and i think that's the only one obviously who does that but i do and i think also you know i times. There's sort of social thing. Where if someone who is higher than you are in the hierarchy tells you that you're wrong. I somehow don't respond to that. It's like i. I'm blind to it. I don't see it. I don't i mean i hear it but i think well i don't know where some people i think might might respond i might not redirected by us. Yeah i don't wanna compare myself to a pit bull. Because i'm not a pit bull at all. But pit bulls. They attack people. Which i don't but they do because they don't respond to the alpher cusack accused of a hierarchy that say i'm the boss your subordinate to me behave yourself. They don't respond to that and that's why they're so dangerous dangerous i should. I should be careful. I've never used this analogy before. But i don't think i really respond to someone just saying oh you're wrong. I mean it makes me feel bad like when i wanted to work on aging on people said things like well they had a million reasons why you could never get a worm to live longer. I there were never silly reasons. But they said them in a very dogmatic way and one person just said to me. You cynthia. I've known people who try to study aging and it's like they think they fall off the edge of the world. It's like the world you think it's it's round but it's really flat and off you go. And he said to me in a really. He's very smart person and he said that to me in a derogatory manner. Like you're you're a fool. I much better than you. Are you know that that tone of voice. It's putting you down. And i. It hurt but i just thought it just sort of made me want to do it even more you know and i think there's another thing when you know when you're trying to do something. It took me a really long time to get anyone to study aging because at the time it was a real backwater and the idea was if you studied aging probably weren't a very good scientist and there was also nothing to study because you just fell apart the evolutionary biologists. They had all these reasons for why you couldn't there couldn't be genes for aging like you wouldn't see their effects until after you reproduce selection. Couldn't act on them so there were these kinds of reasons but anyway But i thought. I had other reasons for thinking. Maybe you could. Evolution produced long lived animals. So maybe it's possible must be genes for aging because you have different lifespans in the world in different species and they came from gene changes during evolution so to me that was pretty simple. Had to be possible. But anyway. So i think it took a little bit of not caring or not letting it get to. You know just pushing on because when you look at it in a rational way you think well. I don't see why couldn't happen. Maybe everybody else is wrong. I'm right maybe it's possible so but then you have to come up with a good yes or do. Did you have to have to show experimentally that. It's not just defying authority. That's right exactly. And i think i was lucky. I mean i still think the reasons. I had for thinking that there would be genes for aging are correct and so there are and and so. That's good but you know they might not have been but that's just life you have to just try you know when you were talking about nature making some animals allowing some animals to live longer than others have you or has anybody done work to just see what their dna's like two they have less effective genes of the kind that you found that. If you knocked out in the worms he would promote longevity it. It sounds sounds like not a hard thing to do to collect. Dna from different kinds of animals. That's been done and there's some nice examples. There's there's some bats that live to be almost fifty fifty years old and these bats. Their dna has been sequenced and it looks like they have the same mutation that we found in our little worms in the bats naturally and so the idea would be that. Maybe that's one reason the best live longer hand. Some other animals have been the dna has been sequenced in. It's not obvious and humans. Now there are people who live a very long time who looked one hundred and several people have taken Taken dna from these people and looked to see whether they might have changes in the genes that we discovered to affect span and there does seem to be a higher frequency of changes in these genes. But there are other things too like their. Dna repair mechanisms seem to be better. However on the other hand the long lived mutants do have better. Dna repair so it's consistent with the idea. It's consistent with the idea. yeah so let me get even more personal. How do you feel about cluj seventy personally. Do you have in age. You'd like to live to or you just couldn't see what happens. Or how do you feel about your own life. Well i'm obsessed with staying young totally obsessed with it. It's kind of terrible i exercise. I eat this diet. Which eaten since i met you twenty years ago which is low less sugar unless less of things that turn into sugar. It's called the low glycemic index diet Just doesn't mean it doesn't mean you eat less spaghetti does i. I eat the sauce. I love i do too. I don i could eat the sauce like soup. I love it but it's great. Yeah i look and so what else tell me more. Tell because you're you're you're into the usefulness and legiti which i i assume everyone has some interest in what what what have you rather of stratagems. I don't know those. Are the two things that i do. I on i. I try not to get too heavy. But i don't wanna get too thin either when you get older being too. Thin is not good for you. So i tried to my weight more or less. Okay but the main thing. I do is to stay away from sugar. I think i was a sugar addict. And i think sugar is really bad for you so i personally think that and i think there's a lot of evidence that supports that it can it can promote diabetes for example. So i try to keep like. I said my intake of things that are sweet or things things that turn into sugar like potato chips and potatoes. That kind of thing. Low bread love. You seem to be focusing more again. I went for longevity. But you're going for youthfulness and vigor and a body that can resist disease than falling apart rather than living forever. yes. Oh i wouldn't. No one wants to live. No one wants to be you know in. I mean you don't wanna be really sick and especially if you're in pain nope people don't want that of course so you don't you don't want the i mean the other thing i'm doing is working calico trying to do everything i can and talking to people in my field and trying to do whatever i can to help the whole enterprise. Keep people healthy for longer. Because i think it's possible. So that's what i do with my waking time for for myself and other people will. Our time is run out and turns his lounge seventy of our but we always end up show at seven quick questions so you game of course and they can be quick answers. You don't have to but let's see what happens. What do you wish you really understood. More about how the slow down aging and in a healthy way. How do you tell someone that. They have their facts wrong. Yeah that's really interesting. What you want to do is to try to figure out. Try to go into that person's brain and look out through their eyes and try to see the world as they see it. Try as hard as you can see the world as they see it and then because if you don't it's there's too much of a divide between you so you try to do that and then you try to. I try to kind of get on their side and show them examples of why they probably are are not correct about something you know i. It's a tricky it's tricky. Watch the strangest question. Anyone has ever asked you that. Question of the attitude you put. And how do you stop a compulsive talker. How do you do it. You know. Google did a study of what makes a group work really well and what they found. There's many things but one thing is if everybody in the room say there are ten people if everybody speaks as much as everybody else speaks if each of those if the people who want to talk more talk less and the people who are silent talk more so i'll try to do is do we that into the conversation that you know thank you. That's great. do people get the hint. Sometimes another thing that i'll do very often is all say. Hey evelyn or sam. You've been really quiet. What do you think. I did that very often. Very good but i don't say the people you're talking too much. Please stop although my husband will kick me if i talk too much. He's he had tiffany. I'm usually pretty good. But sometimes i get going. It's pretty awful. Let's say you're at a dinner party and you sitting next to someone you don't know. How do you strike up a true authentic conversation. I'll try to find out What they like you know what their hobbies are. What they like I don't i asking them what they do. Is possible that it's not as it's not as good you know but i'll i'll try to find out. You know what what they like. And then that's what they want to talk about. And i'm interested in pretty much everything so it works pretty well if i do that next to last. What gives you confidence affirmation. Actually well two things number one. There's two things that gives me confidence and they're kind of opposite one is. Let's suppose on someone. I respect says something really nice about my work like you said earlier that you saw my last year leadership lecture and that you liked it. That made me feel good. And it gave me confidence. Suddenly my serotonin levels. If that's what it is you they went up but another thing is just is internal certainty like i felt about aging. You know if you have a world view that you think is correct and you know all the facts fit together and they tell you something. One of my favorite examples is stand prisoner. Who discovered preowneds these proteins. That had a strange They had a strange form and they could cause other proteins to adopt their strange forms so this caused diseases like mad cow disease and he was a doctor young doctor and he realized someone told him that. If you had this disease it could be passed from one person to another but there was no fever and everybody thought that it was a virus but he thought no. It's not a virus. Because if it were a virus there would be a fever and there are other things that you would have if it was a virus and people didn't have that and so he had that internal conviction that it could not be a virus and so he pressed ford and ford and ford and found that it was actually just a protein. That was the disease causing Entity and i think he did that because he had internal confidence in in his his view of the world from facts. And i think that's very very powerful. Yeah okay last question. What book change your life. Well i have to say the biggest one was jim. Watson's book as in watson and crick on the discovers of the dna structure He wrote a book called the molecular biology of the gene. And when i was in high school. I didn't know what to majoring. 'cause i liked everything and i i just couldn't figure it out. I also like nature. And so i didn't. I was a junior in college. And i still didn't have a major so i dropped out and decided to go back to nature and i kind of i spent my time doing things like solving chess. Games breaking codes and writing helping people write term papers and stuff like that things that were kind of intellectual. But i really know what i was going to do. And my mother was an administrator at the physics department. On where i lived in the university town where i lived and she brought home. Jim watson's book little book on the gene. And i'd never heard about this. This was a long time ago. And i didn't know that genes can get switched on and off. I thought biology was really boring. All descriptive this was in the on the nineteen seventies late late sixties probably late sixties. Early seventies I learned that genes could get switched on and off and it was logical and i ran back to college and majored in in jeans in genetics and jean switches and that changed my life in a very practical way. It didn't change me as a person but it changed me in terms of it gave me a a career which was up. That book may have changed. Not only your life but the lives of millions of was amazing. And i didn't know anything about it. My mother happened to bring it home. I happen to open it. I saw these pictures and i went. This is amazing so it was. What would have happened without that book. I don't know that's great. This has been so much fun talking with you sent. We have to get together more frequently than to every twenty years of very nice. I really enjoy thanks so much. This has been clear and vivid. At least i hope so. My thanks to the sponsor of this podcast and to all of you. Who support our show on patriotic. You keep clear and vivid up and running and after we pay. Expenses whatever's leftover goes to the oldest santa for communicating science at stony brook university. So your support is contributing to the better. Communication of science. Were very grateful. Cynthia canyon is professor. Emeritus at uc san francisco. He's also vice president for aging research at calico life sciences. You can find her lascar leadership lecture that we talked about on youtube. And it's well worth a listen. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham shed with help from our associate producer. Jean chamois are sound. Engineer is erica. And our publicist. Is sarah hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple podcasts. Stitcher but wherever you like to listen next our series of conversations i talk with michio kaku theoretical physicist who is also brilliant communicator. His latest book is the god equation. The quest for theory of everything. The immediate practical implication of the theory of everything is nothing is not gonna affect you and me of very blood. However it'll answer some of the deepest philosophical religious questions of all time was there a beginning What happened before the beginning before genesis. It could answer these questions once and for all whether there are other universes whether there are gateways to these other universes and then of course. I often get the question if there are other universes then is elvis presley still alive in another parallel universe and the answer is yes. He could very well still be alive night and argue diverse but in another parallel universe. He could still be building out. Those hits hit after hit michio. Kaku next time when clear and vivid. Meanwhile on our other podcasts. Science clear and vivid i talk with kerry cojones. She and her team build minisatellites called cubesats and they get launched into space by piggybacking on rockets that are launching much. Larger satellites watching something. You've built ubi the earth and get to orbit on a rocket it. It's quite a feeling to see something that you've worked on. Get so far away from from where you're stuck and then getting the first contact and signal down that lets you know. It's working expert. You don't always get that but if you you you definitely growing affinity for the satellite almost like it is your child or your dog or or something. It's it's it's part of your family and you look for into seeing it again. In hearing from to find out how these tiny satellites help weather forecasting and even help spotting faraway planets listening to my conversation with carrico hoi next time on science clear and vivid for more details about clear and vivid into sign up for my newsletter. Please visit alan all dot com. And you can also find us on facebook and instagram at clear and vivid. And i'm on twitter at allen. All thanks for listening bye.

alzheimer's cynthia kenyon cancer judy camp alan alda david sinclair Wild alaskan Cynthia syria university of washington san francisco fiji calico fibrosis lewis Moore
Dennis Overbye: Reporting the Universe

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

37:52 min | Last month

Dennis Overbye: Reporting the Universe

"I'm alan olga and this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. Much physics mit. But i learned how to kind of look like physicist dressed like a physicist hang out with the physicists. So much that i was just parted their furniture and and and they would forget i was there and then you can start doing good reporting and then you know catching people being themselves which is an important part of science. I think that's dennis over the veteran science journalist with the new york times reflecting on his approach to making even the most complex scientific stories clear and vivid to give you a recent example. How the wobble of immu- on that's right. The wobble of immu- on could overturn the model of the universe that physicists have had for over fifty years and why many physicists couldn't be happier. This is so great to be talking with you because you're such a terrific communicator. A communicator of science mainly but i bet it spills over into every other area. I didn't realize until i looked you up that you had you have an mit physics degree. Do you think that's important for science. Communicator or it doesn't matter. I didn't spend a lot of time in class. Mit and i. I used to show my transcripts sometime when i gave talks. Which it's so embarrassing embarrassing about it. All the all the season dis and the classes. I took over again you know. I think that sometimes a sign of looking for a better a better answer to your questions so so does does the science degree help you. Well it helps me in. The people i went to school with now are famous senior. Scientists in you know clau- tenured professors and we can talk the same language. I don't know if i learned much. Physics at mit. But i learned how to kind of look like visit system dressed like a physicist and hang out with the physicists. Just because. I've spent a lot of time being in the room with these people so much that i was just part of the furniture in and they would forget i was there and then you can start doing good reporting and then you know catching people being themselves. Which is an important part of science. I think i think so too and i. I'm so impressed. With how in you. Writing for instance when you wrote the book about einstein in love it was the human who both loved physics and math and loved women as well right that was the lure of that book really was when they discovered einstein's love letters and i suddenly realized i started to get a glimpse of who einstein really was because before that i just knew. Is this sort of woolly haired guy wandering around princeton without socks you know. So that was. That was great. The only thing wrong with that because everybody of course was important in his life was dead so i couldn't spend any time sitting around in the room with them like a piece of furniture. But you did this other thing which is so interesting. You you went. I learned in the prologue to that book. You went to the neighborhoods where he lived the coffee houses. You took hikes that he took like that famous. Heike took with marie curie. Did you get what did you get out of. That stein was he was always at the center of what was happening. Historically and i mean. I wanted to actually back. When travel was the business you know. I thought that would be really fun to einstein tour. Just take people around mock around bern and zurich and berlin and prague. I mean he's was great traveling. Because i hadn't been to those places before and and to me in a place like that with a sort of mission not just as a ordinary tourist is is really fun thing to do. Did you get insight at all into stein's thinking or his feelings from walking the places he walked in a little bit because i felt i mean when i was walking there i always seeing the same things that he saw honor years ago especially in place like zurich can burn. It hasn't changed a bit so you can walk down the same streets. He walked down the famous clock tower in berlin which was right up the street from where he lived in for where he invented relativity. And it just impresses you itself on you that you're seeing the same things that he saw and when i stood outside the the polytechnic in and looked out over this terrorist across the city. And you see all these clock towers and when they hit the hour they all make a sound and then because it takes sound different times to get to you. You're kind of experiencing this kind of relativity of time in some extent you're getting these signals. That's so interesting. That might have been a thought that he had a watching that same. That's that was what i imagined. I mean yeah well it it does jolt you little bit with a sense that you can imagine better. I did the same thing. When i wrote a play about marie curie. I walked from where she taught to the apartment building where she would go to meet her lover between classes and i wanted to see how out of breath she might be. I don't know if it had any effect at all on my understanding of her. Or if i was able to use it in the play but it it felt like i was digging a little deeper. Yeah you're walking neuner. Footsteps and Kinda literally yeah. You know there was a line in that same prologue. I think where you were talking about. How if you had him alive now. You would have followed einstein around. You would've sat with him quietly. You could have done it the way you do journalism now and you said science journalism did not exist as an art formed then and i thought i think that's the first time i heard a referred to as an art form and it is. It can be anyway righteous truth. It's not just translating the arcane language nest. that's my me being pretentious a little bit but of course it's not just transcription. I mean you have. Any sort of journalism is not just transcription. it's gathering facts gathering quotes gathering material. And then you know you reform it and reported back out. There's always a process of redaction and editing and an imagination. I think because it's a human doing it. That's the thing you your appreciation of the idea and europe transmitting to us that same appreciation that science is done by humans often with all their flaws and with their aspirations and the wrong turns they take. And that's the every one of those elements is as important as the successes they have. It seems to me. Well yeah to me. That's the most important thing because there are these big philosophical debates about well. What is science. And i always think scientists something that people do it so it's rooted in human beings and scientists are particular kind of human beings who characters their personalities. Really come alive. When they're doing their sites I wonder if you know about that study. That was done a few years ago. I think by the university of pennsylvania where they wanted to see how many emails were sent by by readers of the times to other people about the articles. They were reading. Yeah the most emailed list for a while. That was more important than being on the front page for a lot of people. Well the thing about it. That i remember that so strikingly his that. It wasn't articles about how to make your health better. Or how much outta lose weight. Things that are ordinarily. Click bait articles about that inspired awe that sounds like a put you at the top of the list. If you're a good journalist you have to ignore that new. You can't if you start playing to the audience then forget it your job. I see what you mean. Yeah tell the news and read responses. It's unpredictable it sounds like this last article you wrote about a new turn that might be taking. Place is an example of what we're talking about here. It had to do with the you on right. So that's a that got an amazing response that's And it's a very technical story really. I mean nobody knows when immu- on is well i'm one of themselves who silverwood launch into it. Hit tell me what immune immune is. I mean it's one of the so-called seventeen fundamental particles that to just know that make up the universe. It's sort of like an electron but it's heavier but what role it plays in the grand pattern of creation is a complete mystery was when it was discovered Isidor rob who was a famous physicist columbia. Said who ordered that. This was what year was way back. When and that's the euro was born. That's a long time right and it was Well it was discovered in california. But i think back then. The sitter center of physics in the world was in new york city and all the physics was done over her chinese lunches. And so who are who ordered that kind of fit into the in all that time. They haven't found out what role it plays. No i mean we know what electrons electrons and protons make atoms and and you know all of is basically just electrons being shuffled around all our gadgets. run on electricite which is electrons shuffling around me. Musicians are like electrons. But they're heavier and there. They have of their associated with another kind of particle called neutrino. Nobody really knows what neutrinos forever turns out. There are three kinds of neutrinos and there are three kinds of electrons electron. There's on and then later on. They found an even heavier version of electron called. The towels and people will fit all these fundamental particles into a kind of a pattern. They call this the standard model and the standard model sort of fits. All the experiments that basically i've ever been performed on earth in laboratories like sern or fermi lavery some to incredibly incredible precision and the standard bottle. I think almost fifty years old now and most of the discoveries in physics in the last half century of confirming predictions of the standard model. And it's great. The standard model does a lot of things in most of of modern technology runs on quantum mechanics in the standard model. Our the standard model doesn't explain a water really deep things about the universe like why there's matter in the universe or what the dark matter is there's ordinary matter in the universe is outweighed by something called dark matter about five or six to one. We know dark matters not made of adams. Nobody knows what it is but it kind of helps determine the destiny of the universe. It sounds like the experiment you were reporting on which was an experiment involving them on it. Which threatening to overturn the standard model. That's right that's what all the excitement was about because physicists been dying to break the standard model because no one wants to overturn modern physics more than modern physicists. Because they the reason you become a scientist in the first place is to find out something new to have that moment when you know that you know something that nobody else ever knew before. That's the big prize and for fifty years they've been pretty much denied that They're dying for something. Some new some loose thread that they can pull the possible the unravel but we think we know about nature and so You know there was a big hullaballoo. That's almost ten years now about when they discovered the higgs bows on which was sort of prophesied predicted. It's part of the standard model that and it's required to explain why other particles have mass. It costs billions of dollars and fifty years to finally find this thing and it was on the front page every newspaper in the world. Who is huge big deal. A lot of physicist involved in this search were like they were really hoping it wouldn't be found. There were really rooting for it to not be there so that they would have to be able to go back to the drawing boards and find find new theory so so this new on comes along and they do this experiment brookhaven. Were they senator around this electromagnetic racetrack. Really fifty foot wide electromagnet. It can calculate how much this thing should wobble according to the standard model and they can do this. They can measure this wobble to like. I forget it's like seven or eight decimal places. Seventh and eighth decimal place. It does wobble disagrees with calculations of the standard model. But it's not enough. It's not convincing enough. So they they took magnet and they shifted all the way to chicago to fermilab three thousand mile trip on a barge basically all the way down the east coast around florida up a huge thing. Isn't it gets a flying saucer. And along the way along the route they had a park to retched for traveling ten miles an hour on the highway and they had park overnight to rest in a parking lot for costco is think. Yeah and there were thousands of people who came to look at this thing and and ask questions about what it was. And what was the experiment. How interesting it was that that attractive to curiosity of ordinary people people love to city on people are really interested in this. They just don't know that they're interested in it until it's presented to them the right way because it just sounds like something really technical that they're not gonna understand and it's full of weird words like nuance and worse. This big machine finally gets to chicago. What did they do with it. Fake send a beam view on through it Better means 'cause fermilab produced the best neurons you can produce you know. They're i get most of mine from a firm subscription and they measured in this discrepancy still existed. So don't physics. There are always discrepancies between experiment and prediction. And generally you have to do the experiment many many times and if you do them enough times the discrepancies go away. There's always just the chance that it's a fluke the shop. The discrepancy didn't go away so the chances that it's a fluke are much less than they were twenty years ago when they first did it brookhaven. So they're pretty excited because they've just started. This experimented for lab. And they're going to be doing it for the next several years. They're gonna wind up with sixteen or seventeen times as much data as they have reported so far. At what difference will it make. It will make that they will. This will be the first time that they've actually disproved prediction of the standard models. It means the standard model. There's something there. There's the little threat and what that thread consists of you have to leave the theorist imagination. This is the really mystical part of this. He this is to me. This is what the beautiful part of this experiment is so in quantum mechanics which is the action the real theory the real basic theory of the universe this paradoxical body of principles and discoveries that govern subatomic world nationally governs the whole world. We only see it. Manifested in subatomic particles. There's something called the uncertainty principle which some people have heard of and drove einstein nuts. It's the uncertainty principle. Said that you can. You can know where a particle is or it can know how fast is going. But you can't know both in the better you know one the less you know the other one and until you've measured where this particle is or how fast it's going. It could be anywhere it could be in your slipper in the closet. It could be in my eye and this is literally true and this has been verified over and over again that this is a this is just a fundamental fact of reality. One form of the uncertainty principle. One implication of is that you can't ever know that a little piece of spaces empty spaces actually is foaming with these things. Called virtual particles popping into existence hopping in and out since hardest thing for me to swallow when i first heard it because i remember the moment. They'll mom on the phone with graham chedda who was producing this podcast now and and i said no wait wait. Nothing is nothing spaces. Empty empty is empty. What do you mean something in there. And that's the first time. I heard it and every time i heard it after that i thought what an what a remarkable notion. How does anybody know and what. How do you handle that things popping in and out of existence out of apparently nothing. Yeah so it sounds crazy. I mean it's was a mathematical prediction And it was verified. Long ago that these particles popping out of existence would have a slight effect on things. You could measure so so. Here's a on and his This guy was named jolly said demure on is never alone. There's no such thing as a lonely particle in the universe. It's surrounded by these virtual particles and thing is anything that is permitted to exist by the laws of physics and we don't know the laws of physics can appear an effect on anything. A dragon can appear in effect. This new on So all kinds of things that we don't even know exist yet can appear in this empty space and they will affect the on. So so the is is wobbling. And it's not wobbling according to predictions because he's being affected by something that the predictions haven't taken into account which is all of these other that we don't know yet that might exist. So it's opening a door to new mysteries exactly and how wide the big bet doors. And where goes nobody knows. I mean if history's any guide nobody will know for a long time because once you start following one of these threads. You don't know where it's gonna lead when we come back from our break. Dennis overby confesses that even. He doesn't really care about the you on. He cares more for what it represents the human drive to understand the world. We've livid clear and vivid can be downloaded for free because it supported by our sponsors and by as they say people like you but there are no people like you. You're you we wanna make sure you know about patriot. Dot com slash clear and vivid. That's where if you love hearing from the extraordinary guests we have on our shows. You can become a patron and get early access to special videos and at the highest tier you can join me in our monthly get together online. I think you'll find out that the listeners to our podcast often as much fun to hear from his our guest. We're grateful to you will thank you. And don't forget to check out dot com slash clear and vivid. 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Scr ib dot com slash vivid to get sixty days of scripts for free. This is clear and vivid. And now back to my conversation with dennis overby. So let me ask you a question. That's prompted by are talking about the mystery who've been explaining. Why do you suppose it should matter to ordinary folks who have a mortgage have kids to bring up. Have things in the garden. That need to be weeded. Why should it matter what the heck then does when it wobbles. Yeah i don't think they care about the view on. I mean i don't care about the neither when i care about what people care about is that we have this legacy humans to understand who we are and where we came from. And where we're going. I mean this and so this is part of that trying to answer that question. We would like to know what the world is because as a friend of mine once said he said when a child asks what is the world. We have nothing to tell her. Because we don't have we don't have theory of the world. We don't have a complete theory of what the world is made of. We have this standard model tells us a lot about how to make. Electric cars maybe Maybe a lot about biology though. We're still learning a lot about biology you'll like we're headed crash course in biology in all jr in the last year. But we don't. I mean we don't know and i think it's part of being human to wonder about these things i mean. Every kid asks these questions then you get too busy one of the problems. Is that the people who do know a lot about a little part of the universe have such a vocabulary to it like what we've been talking about in terms of and the wobbly have it's it really requires somebody like you who can invent metaphors and analogies hellish. Know what they're talking about. I mean i we. We did a show on scientific american frontiers about dark matter and other astrophysics questions and everywhere. We went to interview scientists on several continents. I would ask them. Can you help me. Picture the curvature of space time what i picture it and i know that einstein had a favorite analogy if you had a rubber sheet stretch tightened you put a bowling bowl in the middle of it and tried to roll a golf ball across. It would dip where the dip toward the bowling ball. Were depressed the rubber sheet but that never answered the question former because of reduced it to two dimensions and gravity occurs in every direction around the earth. And not only not only that he was using gravity to explain gravity. The bowling ball depresses the sheet. Because of what we call gravity little. Yeah it is a nice. i mean. I actually use the sagging mattress a lot. But i loved you. Help me understand it by calling it. A sagging mattress. Because of course that's up the as the same flaw that you just what i what i did. Now here's what i did with the sagging mattress. I put another mattress on top of it and the bowling bowl would depress the top mattress as much as it had depressed bottom mattress and therefore i could picture something that moves. That could possibly move through the mattresses. As no matter what direction it came in from it would veer told toward the bowling bowl. Because the mattresses had been curved until i got a little closer was your analogy and i really was grateful to you with all these things. They're very visual what they all evaluates this idea that curse time is also curved yellow. You the train train left the station with me. And i can't explain that. And i it's kinda gets left out somehow but i. I asked scientists on that on that trip. I asked scientists. How do i visualize this. I can't i can't visualize it. What makes you think out of seven billion people. You are going to be the one. Who can i right. No you're right. A lot of. I mean decide to say you know. It's easier to do the math on paper than actually visualize it visualize anything in foreign inventions. So it makes a lot of or houston banking up our mind about things based on our experience question whether we should make up our minds about how the universe works based on somebody's arithmetic. I know it's not arithmetic. I'm i'm being snarky. Yeah no well. Our minds evolved to make use of a certain universe and they're very good at doing that how to avoid stepping on snakes and how to throw a rock and a lion or something like that. We raise running out of time but raises a final question for me. Is you satisfy in your writing a lot of my curiosity. Do you have a drive to ignite curiosity of the people you write for. If they're not that curious. Do you think it's possible to help them get more curious. I think they're all curious. They just don't know they're curious hotel about the and they're easily turned off by by technicalities and there's a lot they don't have to know you don't necessarily have to know how you know times affected by space time curvature into appreciate that there are things like black holes the that the universe evolved soon. You don't have to know everything you have to know every detail to kind of appreciate the euro grandeur the tapestry when you know maybe like go to a symphony and i'm not that particularly musically illiterate joy. I don't have to know that every note was played perfect. Gleaner that every instrumentalist was Flawless for what ki- it's in. I i know what you mean because when i go to infant and they always tell me donnelly the title in the program but what keach written and sometimes the program note say. This key was shows because this key has these qualities. And i asked my musician. Friends does do different keys. Have different qualities to you. And and most of them. Say yes. And i don't hear it but i can still enjoy the music anyway. I think it's the confirms your analogy right. I've never quite understood the whole business with keys. And i had a friend a woman who is like a brilliant guitarist and she tried to teach me guitar. I never got like award. Why why does it matter what keyword. I'm like why is that so important. So that's something. I'm not going to understand but you can still enjoy the music absolutely well. I've enjoyed our talk so much. And i look forward to when we get together over beer and talk more about this stuff because you know that would be. That would be wonderful you. I mean you're just doing great work. I have to say i'm i'm very impressed. And grateful for your. You're doing appreciate that. Because you're you're a master at this so i i really appreciate your saying that before we go we. We usually end the show which seven quick questions that are roughly about communication and and the the the answers can be brief. What do you wish you really understood about science or about about anything. I really wish. I understood myself but well. That's what marsala said women you get in trouble for saying that. You're hawking got in trouble for saying that how do you tell someone. They have their facts wrong. That's well. they're factually wrong. Just said well. I don't think that's right. If i know a better facts all save them. What's the strangest question anyone has ever asked you. Am i happy. They asked you if you were happy. I'm art yeah. That is a strange question to me is a strange question because everybody anybody knows me go. I'm never happy something but it kind of makes me makes me laugh. Some if you're not yet no way to get you to. How do you stop a compulsive talker. Boy i wish i knew on. Leave the room change the subject. Ask another question okay. Let's say you're sitting next dishes the next question. Let's say you're sitting next to someone at a dinner table when that becomes more popular again and you sit next to someone you don't know. How do you strike up a genuine conversation with that person. A genuine connor a pushed. Recon ask them. I'll ask them who they are. And what's what's their connection with. Whatever we're at guess was basically. What are you doing here. What's your connection these days. I mean the only group the kennedys. I participate in number for the last year saturday morning softball games so i'll ask somebody how they got in the game. What's right because always people know each other in some strange way Next to list. What gives you confidence. I love the look postbank. Well when when you are would make it happen. I guess. I think i know what i'm doing. Okay last question. What book changed your life What changed my life One book that had dig influence on me and There was a book called the parable of the beast by a guy named john. Bleibtreu who i think it was like living in a cave and santa monica or something like that or santa cruz and it was about science and it was about any discuss a lot of research about the menial. Glad you other things and it was. It was sort of a mixture science and psychology and did mysticism anyway. I think it was the first book that i of read that combined. Popular science was sort of kind of modern thought. Sort of ended inspired me that and steps toward an ecology of mind by gregory bateson and timothy. Ferris's book that red line. Those kind of influence me at a time. When i was sort of shifting career is actually wasn't doing anything and made me feel more encouraged towards towards writing which i'd always wanted to do well. I'm glad you read that stuff. Because it lead inspired you to enter into this career which has benefited all of so much. I love a l- every time. I say your name at the head of an article. I know i'm in for a really important treat while you're being very kind but it's i'll take it. I'm glad to be here cloud to know you and hope you keep up the good work same to you. Thank you so much clear in vivid. At least i hope so my. Thanks to the sponsor of this podcast and to all of you who support our show on patriot. You keep clear and vivid up and running and after we pay. Expenses whatever's leftover goes to the oldest sanford communicating science at stony brook university. So your support is contributing to the better communication of science. Were very grateful. Dennis overby has been explaining the mysteries of the universe Over thirty years in the pages of the new york times his book on albert einstein is called einstein in love a scientific romance. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham shed with help from our associate producer. Jeanne chamois are sound. Engineer is eric wan. And our publicist. Is sarah hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple podcasts. Stitcher wherever you like to listen. This is the last episode of season. Thirteen of clear and vivid but season. Fourteen is just around the corner checking next week. When and i share some moments from our future episodes including this one from the season's first guest kevin bacon. He of the six degrees of kevin bacon. Kevin bacon the other thing about the six degrees thing is. I've i've always thought to myself. You just need to take me out of when you take me out of it it. The concept of it is really a kind of important than beautiful concept that is that we are all connected and we see this now so much during this pandemic right of the. What what you'd go out and do in your life affects other people. And that's the. That's the connections kevin bacon and making connections in just two weeks on the new season of clear and vivid for more details about clear and vivid into to sign up for my newsletter. Please visit alan. Alda dot com and you can also find us on facebook and instagram at clear and vivid. And i'm on twitter at alan old. Thanks for listening bye.

albert einstein Dennis california sixteen six degrees gregory bateson berlin alan olga Jeanne chamois einstein seven chicago bern Seventh Heike fermilab Ferris sixty day fifty years Isidor rob
Jacqueline Novogratz: More Than Money Alone

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

46:44 min | 2 months ago

Jacqueline Novogratz: More Than Money Alone

"Isn't it nice to have something that's fun to eat and good for you at the same time. Cheerios or one hundred percent whole grain oats in shape. We've come to associate with funds since we were kids and now that we're grown up. We can appreciate what they can do to help. Keep us healthy. Learn more about a heart healthy lifestyle. Cheerios dot com and find. Honey nut cheerios. Wherever you shop for syria. I'm alan alda. And this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. Think if there's one thing i've learned in five years at the opposite of poverty isn't wealth the opposite of poverty dignity what we really yearn for as human beings is choice opportunity the ability to make our own decisions the capability to participate interact contribute and feel value by society. And that's what's missing now for too many people. That's jacqueline nova gretz. She's the founder and ceo of acumen. That's a nonprofit. She created out of a firsthand experience of the shortcomings of conventional aid organizations by investing in and supporting entrepreneurs acumen is brought healthcare education housing agriculture. And above all jack will and argues dignity to hundreds of millions of low income people around the world. This show great to be talking with you today. I'm so impressed by your work. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. You can't even know that's your new book. The manifesto for a moral revolution. It is such a helpful handbook for people who want to do good in the world. Because there's so many wrong turns you can taking you can wanna do good and wind up not doing such a great amount of good as you wish you had. Yeah it kind of goes back into my mother as a as a young girl. I was telling me that good intentions lead the path to hell. And i didn't understand that until a little bit later in my life when i saw house so much money not only can be wasted but can actually do harm. You know one of the things. I think i've observed but you've you've observed so much more than me on this front but one of the things i think. I've observed his that. We take a wrong turn when we don't listen to what they really need and want the people were trying to help and we decide for them what they want it. You think that's a major problem. I think this is one of the most major problems. The the reason i i started my organization in the first place is that i worked on wall street And seeing how markets actually do listen to customers except not poor customers because they can overlook them or they explain them and on the other hand. When i moved to rwanda the early nineteen eighties to start a bank for women. All around me was the aide game which didn't listen thought. They thought we knew what low income people needed and too often gave them exactly what they did not need one or value and and that ultimately ends up creating dependency and really what we should be after. His world is dignity. I think if there's one thing i've learned in thirty five years it's the opposite of poverty isn't wealth. The opposite of poverty is dignity that comes with such an interesting idea. you're redefinition of poverty is so interesting. Tell me more about that. So if i just give a little bit of income but no capability to contribute to interact What have i really done giving you a piece of dignity and money matters but what we really yearn for as human beings choice opportunity the ability to make our own decisions and a not comes with having access having the capability of using that access and so even opportunity isn't enough. It's gotta be opportunity in ways that give other people. The capability to participate interact contribute and feel valued by society. And that's what's missing right now for too many people. What made you leave wall street. What was there a moment of inspiration where you should i. I shouldn't be on wall street. I should be in west. Africa definitely didn't say west africa as next immediate point. Yeah sure i it was. It was in. Brazil was during the financial crisis of the early eighties. I was analyzing all of these loans that were made to elites we were writing off hundreds of millions of dollars. Those long should never have been made. And yet i would go into. The fa velez the low income areas of rio on the weekends. And i'd see so much vitality so much work and i innocently want my boss With the idea that maybe we could start lending program within the bank To lend to the people in the fellas and honestly thought we might get a have a better chance of getting our money back and do something for brazil. He literally gave me a book called the innocent anthropologist. And that's when. I knew the bank was no longer for me I tried to get myself back to brazil. Not wasn't in the cards and so By her by crook. I wanted to try to see if you could build banking for low income people and i had heard about the cramming bank in bangladesh muhammad yunus who had started the grameen bank. He was a real inspiration but interestingly it seems that you'd at least now you work on a larger scale than them. Hamad unison mohammad units. I remember when i met him. Twenty years ago was Financing women who needed a pushcart for small business or to own the only cell phone in the village so people would buy phone time from hearst's very small businesses but which did in fact give them dignity in and a profitable business. But you seem to be starting bigger businesses with. That's right folks. But as a in my twenties. When i went to rwanda started at microfinance bank very much based on the grameen model and i had another eureka moment when i realized that while we were helping women improve their business. Very few. Were actually entrepreneurs who were creating jobs. And so i Simultaneously started this little bakery to think. Well maybe i could help create jobs and indeed i could but it was a very different model and so I ultimately left rwanda with this idea that longer term. I wanted to use the tools of investment to build companies that solve problems and might provide jobs as well Little that i know. Just how many jobs you could provide and so now. Our model today which is patient capital. We typically make between two hundred and fifty thousand million dollar investments Anywhere from ten to fifteen years that will stay with the company and now we have a series of other funds as well. We'll we'll make up to five million dollar investment. So it's a far far move from microfinance in yet it builds on those same principles that mohammed yunus figured out a way to make credit a human rights and make it accessible to people. And i think. I've really been learning how to take what we've set our human rights like electricity and Water and healthcare and education and make it those accessible to low income people as well because for all of the the lip service. We still have a billion people with no electricity. A billion you know one in three people on earth with no toilet. The numbers are still appalling. And so there's gotta be a better way and that's really been my life's work trying to find those better ways When you were saying that you got to west africa in the early days and the people who are trying to help weren't helping what were they doing wrong In some ways it was the focus of people giving aid was purely on helping. And so i ended up at one point analyzing two hundred women's groups who had received grants for income generating activities and and so again it was great intentions but when you dug a little. What i discovered was that the expectation was that a group of twenty women would conceive of that run a business like a water kiosk in the slum or a poultry raising little business and one. It's really hard to raise a bit to create a business even by yourself doing it with twenty people. Almost impossible to the money had to go through the district officers and so many of the district officers would demand a ten or twenty percent kickback. Before they made the grant so women would pay the officer they were have a little business that had very little accountability at it so the businesses often would work and then when the donors come to visit the women would put on a show they would buy them fantasies and might now asus resulted in a conclusion that many of the women were actually losing money from all of this crap money that was going to them and i could go on and on away. It sounds like giving the money and hoping for the best without being there with them and helping them prepare and helping them carry through on the tasks involved because they had to invent of business all on their own and in a way the investment mentality whether you're using grant money or a straight out investment if you make that investment you make it for a longer period of time and you make a commitment to be part of solving the problem without solving the problem yourself that puts unit completely different frame of mind. Your accompanying people. You're enabling them to build their own solutions in ways that makes sense for their own communities. You're insisting on financial accountability said that at the end of the day people have in place a system that provides them with more choice. More opportunity in something that they own and can participate in. And that's the holy grail of development. Sounds like contrasting scenario in your early success. with mosquito. niche added that go. It was really the first big win at acumen. Because as i said before i wasn't quite sure how this would all work We had to convince every stakeholder to do things slightly differently or dramatically differently and so in the early two thousands. Malaria was killing over a million. Mostly kids around the world sumitomo. The japanese manufacturing company or Chemical company had developed an organic insecticide to impregnate polyethylene based netting with them which would kill the mosquitoes that carried malaria. All of the production was done in asia and yet ninety five percent of malaria cases were in africa and so we were very new but we were lucky enough to partner with unicef and sumitomo and we found a an entrepreneur in tanzania a new shaw to take this technology and build a company a big risk. We made the loan we worked with a company and And then i started to know that it was going to work. The first time i visited and i saw one machine to women making long-lasting malaria bednets. Next time. i come four machines. Next time i come ten machines year later seventy thousand square foot factory a two years later ten thousand women making thirty million nets a year ultimately producing fifteen percent of global production improving to the world that you could manufacturer as efficiently inside factories in east africa as you could in asia and that there was a real opportunity for african solutions to african problems if we approached solving the problems both with our heads as well as with our hearts and that for too long we'd seen either all heart or all head and it was time for a new game and that was really for me the beginning of what was possible. Now you you have helped company start and the united states as well right what what what are. Some of those stories would how different is different helping. Start a company in west africa or india. The starting isn't all that different Quite frankly it's an extraordinary entrepreneur. Who has what we call the moral imagination. They've they've they've immersed they've gotten stuff that you would probably love. Don't go close to community. Listen understand who. Your customers are in a in a very human way and builds viable solutions. So the starts not that different Longer term as the company grows there's more access to capital the systems aren't as corrupt The infrastructure is much better. It's easier to hire talent. And so i'm not saying it's easy in the united states is brutally hard but It's not like building a company in lagos nigeria Where you scratch your head at the miracles that are being done One of the companies that really inspires me and they all do with acumen america. Did i think they're setting a real standard. For how how. The world can change. The company called every table Guy from wall street learn about food deserts that in our urban centres people have no access to fresh healthy food and and that it's fully related to gout diabetes so many of our chronic diseases so he starts off by building a nonprofit in los angeles teaching women how to cook better and understand nutrition and that makes some progress but not enough so decides to start a for profit company an affordable fast food nutritious healthy restaurant and it's so valued by the people incompetent in los angeles that he very quickly grows to eight restaurants and then lockdown happens during the pandemic first day of locked down sam polk and i would say he's very much like many of the Acumen america entrepreneurs he sends out a tweet and says look. Our mission is healthy food. If you need it let us know. We'll deliver it if you can't afford it. Let us know and we'll deliver it anyway and if you're willing to pay it forward here's a link and and within weeks so many people across los angeles had contributed that they were able to deliver. Ultimately you know hundreds of thousands of meals increase jobs for people in the community and then they partnered with government to then start bringing all this food to homeless shelters and other underserved communities. And i think they've delivered about six million meals since the pandemic started and the black lives matter. Protest happened and they realized that they were now on a growth trajectory trajectory with a new business. Model altogether They decided that the next move was to raise alone fun. Building academy within every table to train their employees that were entrepreneurialism. Wanted to start their own franchises prefacing black and brown employees there now on on-track to launch forty franchises over the next three years where they will give people who would not normally have the opportunity nor the capital to start their own franchise accompanied by every table to help them ultimately own and run a business and and and and be part of contributing in ways. That really do. I think demonstrate dignity and build new role models for all of us these on the new profiles. Encourage if you will that could motivate and inspire new generation when we come back from break. Jacqueline nova grads is advice for people who want to make the world a better place but don't know how to start and she tells a wonderful story of how she first came to understand the many ways that we're connected to people whose lives are so different from ours. Clear and vivid can be downloaded for free because it supported by our sponsors and by as they say people like you but there are no people like you. You're you we wanna make sure you know about patriot. Dot com slash clear and vivid. That's where if you love. Hearing from the extraordinary guests we have on our shows. You can become patron and get early access to special videos. And at the highest here you can join me in our monthly get together online. I think you'll find out that the listeners to our podcast are often as much fun to hear from is our guest. We're grateful to you will thank you. And don't forget to check out. Patriotic dot com slash. Clear and vivid. Seems to me if you are what you eat. Then it kind of matters where what you eat comes from right. The wild alaskan company gets seafood from alaska and the pacific northwest. And it gets it wild. It's never farmed or modified and it contains no antibiotics. Wild alaskan company delivers this high quality. Sustainably sourced wild court seafood. Right to your door. You can choose from salmon whitefish or and every month you can explore different specials. One hundred percent satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. Get you nutrition from nature with wild alaskan company and just in case. They didn't mention it before. This fish is wild. And right now you can get fifteen dollars off your first box of premium seafood. When you visit wild alaskan company dot com slash. Alda that's wild alaskan company dot com slash older for fifteen dollars off your first box. Wild alaskan company dot com slash older. Make sure to use our url to let them know that we sent you. This is clear and vivid and now back to my conversation with jackal. The nova grads your such a good storyteller yourself. You don't start talking about the subject in called terms you start with story. It's compelling in itself but illustrates the intellectual point. You wanna make including best selling book the blue sweater the story that gave you that title is a fantastic storage seems to me. It says so much. One of the things it says is how interconnected we are now by trade and travel and culture and all kinds of ways. Let me hear from you that that story. That blue sweaters story i. It's a wonderful story. Well thank you At so i was. I'm the eldest of seven big family. And i got a sweater for my uncle. Edit it was blue it had jeepers across the front. Mount kilimanjaro 's across the chest ward. All the time until i was a freshman in high school in my adolescent curves were filling out the car the contours of geography in new ways. And i and. I believe that there's a humiliating moment in every teenage kids. Life and mine was when my high school nemesis reached called out across the hall where all the football players were And just made a really lewd comment to me and And i was just crushed ran. Home ceremoniously dumped the sweater into the good with my mother. And i thought i'd never have to see it again. And then i fast forward literally a decade. And i was in rwanda running through the hills of golly when I see ten yards in front of me a little tiny boy with toothpick legs and sure enough wearing my sweater and i breathe it. Run up to the child. Grab a by the collar. Scare the bejesus out of him. Turn it and i say my name written on the tag of his sweater and the poor child ran away. You can't blame you. I first case of helping somebody. I thought i'd alert by that. But it is truly the not only the interconnectedness of our world. But how our action and our inaction can impact people every day and now there's so many i bet you have a blue sweater moment not like that. That's extraordinary because it. It contains hope and encouragement to anybody who thinks even vaguely. What will it matter if. I put a sweater in the goodwill bucks. But what i love about what you're doing now is helping people focus on any desire. They have to do good to to find out i mean. Are you say something that really struck home with me. I think i'm paraphrasing. you said. Don't decide on the purpose of your life. Live your way into it That's that's the way. I found purpose and it seems to me to be away. Where you you connected to your roots more united in that out on a limb. I be interested in how you felt found purpose. I think that's absolutely right. It comes from the inside out and a lot of people will come to. My officer are right. And and say i really want to change the world. I just don't know what my purposes yet. Can you help me. And i think the way that you absolutely will not find your pop purposes if you're looking directly for your purpose Tell me what makes you feel beautiful. Tommy what excites you. Tell me what you're curious about. Take a step toward that. See what that step brings you and if you have no idea even what makes you curious or excites you find a leader who who does know and follow that leader. You may learn that you hate without leader does or you may learn that this is what you wanna do for the rest of your life but if you just sit thinking about what your purpose should be you may end up at the starting blocks and everybody else is gone. It's the same. Problem is so people that want to keep all their options open because then at the end of the day all they have is a whole lot of options and so When i see those people who keep that sparkle like you add sparkle that excitement that childlike curiosity decade after decade after decade. It is It's so often because along the way they decided to make a commitment to something much bigger than themselves. And i'm making that commitment. They find freedom. I think one of the things that made me light up to that statement was that that was the process that i went through i. I didn't know. I didn't know what i would be spending my time on what you could call trying to do. Good until i realized i was able to be helpful just translating what i had learned previously in a whole other field. Which was the theater things. I learned in the theater. I realized i could use to help. People communicate better. So i lived into it. As you said. I love that it also again has shows humility in you because Sometimes people who come from finance will come to me and say I really wanna help. 'em i'll say. Well that's great because we really need someone to help us evaluate these companies. Figure out the financials now. No i do that in my day job. I'd love to hold babies women in the slums themselves. Kidding hold the baby. need your skills. It's sort of funny. That's the problem of not listening. I and it's it's hard to listen hard too because you liable to. Here's something you you really don't want to hear that. You're not on the past being helpful. What what are the other elements. What if somebody did. This is a practical question. People are listening and if they're listening to this program because they're interested in connecting with other people already is on the path to wanting to make things better. What are the things that they can do to really accelerate the movement that you've been working in for twenty years and that has had such great success. Thanks yeah i would say to Start by redefining success so that they can get out of their own way and realizing that it's only when you let go of so many of the the end games the money power fame game and focus on the problems that you're solving that you start to find that sense of purpose as you were saying and And the greatest actors the greatest writers greatest Solvers of our biggest problems tend to fall into that category the The next thing is to start and then an end to listen as we've been as we've been talking about i think it also requires a level of courage Moral courage if you. Well what do you mean. I think too often we we see someone who has accomplished these great things and we think will. I'll never be that or they're so inspirational. Saw let them do it instead of. I can't do that now. But i can take this one step and what i have seen as someone who lacked courage on a whole lot of france when i was young. Is that by practicing courage by saying the truth to my boss early on in again in ways that she could here not just desire everything i didn't like and and and want her to understand me Might me and i was shaking and holding the bottom of the chair to make sure i didn't fall off of it Through story and But to but to say those truth even though your lips are trembling and realized that you survive it and maybe things do change and that will give you courage to take that next step and again. Just start when. I started acumen. I knew that flabby as it was working was mostly broken. And i knew that the markets were also broken. When it came to the very poor. I wasn't exactly sure as to what it would look like to put the two together. But i was sure that i was going to fight and focus and use everything in me to solve the problems and i think the reason i raise money was because people saw that in me and it wasn't until the tenth year anniversary album when my board chair gave an impromptu speech and she said you know i remember when jacqueline i asked me to become a supporter of acumen and i was so inspired by everything she said and i made this big financial commitment and i went home. I told my husband all about her and he said so. What does she do and and she said i said you know. I don't really know but i believe in it. I think that's how change happens. You have the courage to start it. You're not fully no but you you do know that you're seeker so be a seeker. Hold yourself to account but be big busier and let the work teach you what you have to do next so along the way you must have experienced a failure to can you think of a failure that illustrates how you are able to learn from it and move on and profit from the failure. Sure there were. I now see failures in three categories At least in in my worlds. We made failures early on by being too enamored of technology. Sometimes that we didn't fully understand and were too early on the innovation curb. And so i learned early on that. If you didn't fully understand how that technology would play out In the lives of poor people don't invest in it so it helped us. We started to look at distribution systems rather than at at straight technology plays. There were failures of just being early that neither were low. Income markets Nor society at large ready for what we were doing Case in point in boxton we did the first Health insurance program for the very very poor Low income people weren't at a point where they were ready to pay for something that had no tangible value in the immediate term We felt but an industry was essentially built on the knowledge and the assets of what we were able to built the most painful failure which is partially why. I wrote the book Where the failures of investing in the wrong character investing in people. Where i i really went through feelings of great betrayal Discovering bribes or two sets of books more A deep a deeply held belief that sometimes came from their parents that honor was more important than honesty and that this was business as usual. And you wouldn't succeed unless you played the game and so I've learned a lot about assessing character. And i've learned a lot about continually renewing a commitment to character. How do you go about that. How do you judge whether or not somebody's really good at presenting someone. They're not to you when you need to know who they really are. How do you see through it In the same way that you don't directly go into purpose you don't start by talking about the profit and loss. She on the financial statements. You start by talking about. who are you one of. You failed Tell me about your family. What do you love. What did you learn from your failures and We don't hire anyone at my organization today unless we do a values conversation. How do you go about that. So we have a manifesto. At acumen a statement of our values it starts by standing with the poor seeing potential or other seat despair listening to voices unheard investment as a means not an end. So we're very clear about what our values are and so it used to be that i did every values interior. I don't anymore but we have senior people that will at the end of the interview process of test them for their skills. Aren't they the right fit etcetera etcetera. Then someone will talk to them about What are their values. One of those values been cut tested. When did you not live up to your values and if someone can't tell you when they didn't live up to your advice because because the words should be right now. This is where i'm living here. A couple of stories here at so amazing. How often people will tell you the truth. I actually think we can tell a phony from a hundred feet away if we stop long enough to listen not just with our ears but with all parts of ourselves. That's not to say we haven't made mistakes nor that we won't continue to make some mistakes but hopefully we make a lot less than we when we did before running at a time to my regret because this is so interesting. I'm so happy for you and for all of us that you've developed this way of making life better not just for people in poverty but for all of us because we'll all be elevated no know the old saying that a rising tide lit sold. Boats are boats to toward the ones who are troubled. I love you for saying that All these things that don't tell you when you first start out. Like i said i i sort of a silly young person who just wanted to go. Save the world and fell my head when i first went Thankfully because it taught me to be a lot more humble right from the beginning but even then decades later starting acumen. I really thought this was about bringing dignity to people who've been left out of the system being bringing dignity to the overlooked and underestimated And what i've learned is that in that process if you really immerse yourself if you really do it in a way that is committed to building the kinds of financially viable companies that put our shuman purpose at the center That we all change and that that you said that we get dignity and that. If there's one truth it is that we don't get dignity as a human race until everyone of us has dignity and doing this work. We can assure ourselves at least a little bit more. That's great we end up conversations with seven questions in a rough way about communication or you game gave. I'll try short okay. Here's the first question. What do you wish you really understood. I wish i really understood a psychological hack to move more quickly from seeing the world's in in group versus out group terms to one of cultivating deep empathy. You and me both. How do you tell someone. They have their facts wrong. I ask a lot of questions. The socratic method till they have no answers. They have no answers really. What's the strangest question anyone has ever asked you. I have a really sad strange kept graduate but the funniest strange question was in the desert of rajastan. My train broke down medic guy who had a motorcycle. He told me he would take me. Degi sylmar this place in the desert and about halfway in middle of the desert just the two of us in a camel. He asks me to write my name in the sand. Which i do then. He asked me to write his name in the which i do and then he says you know in my tradition. A woman writes her name in the sand and then a man writes his name in the sand. And then the man scoops up both the names and then they make love that. Okay okay that okay. That's the question. Oh that's not exactly migration. Get back on the motorcycle. Go back to where we came. Okay how do you. How do you stop a compulsive talker. I leaned in. Give them the lie. If it's still not working put my hand on their arm and then finally just say stop. Please stop taking time when. I think it used to take me a lot longer than it does these days. Let's say you're at a dinner party and you're sitting next to someone you don't know how do you start up a genuine conversation with that person. i usually just say. Tell me your story what. I'll just tell me your story. Who are you and and somehow stories start unfolding. What gives you confidence Small victories small victories. Give me confidence and an courage. Because i used to hate public speaking so much mom. It's somewhat matic to what you and i were talking about I finally got to a point where i realized that if i could just think of myself as an instrument an instrument of peace an instrument of love and focus on loving the audience and getting myself completely out of the way Then i could speak. And then i could be that instrument but if i focus on performing a disaster well it's like would yo yo. Ma told me when he was out to give a concert. He's as those people to come to a party and he's giving them. The party's a guest. Yeah right right last question. What book changed your life. He so many books that early on the pedagogy of the oppressed by paolo ferrari. He was a brazilian anthropologist. To really helped me see how so often we get it wrong by bringing our ideas of what should work to low income communities and frery turned everything upside down and said you know if you want to teach people literacy Go in and be with them. Learn about their environment. Use the things in their worlds to offer them. Opportunity Were they can learn themselves if we really want to solve problems for people with people who are different from ourselves. We need to use the the lens of our moral imagination. It's been so great talking with you. Thank you you're real inspiration and not only because it sounds good but it works you truly you have here of my for most of my life and made me laugh and you've inspired me and i've loved your love of science and as i said this childlike curiosity that you bring to everything is really perhaps one of the greatest gifts that you can show us all the act of renewal and the power abc staying forever young so thank you keep at it. You too has been clear and vivid. at least i hope so my. Thanks to the sponsor of this podcast and to wall of you who support our show on patriot. You keep clear and vivid up and running and after we pay. Expenses whatever's leftover goes to the all the center for communicating science at stony brook university. So your support is contributing to the better communication of science. Were very grateful. Chaco nova grads is book. The blue sweater bridging the gap between rich and poor in an interconnected world was first published in two thousand and ten. Her latest book is manifesto for moral revolution practices to build a better world. You can find out more about accurate at ackerman dot org. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham shed with help from our associate producer. Jean chamois are sound engineers. Eric wan and our publicist. Is sarah hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple. Podcasts stitcher wherever you like to listen next in our series of conversations. I talk with hank. Greely is a well known expert on the ethics of biomedicine and his new book. Crisper people delve into the murky story of howard. Chinese scientists created. The world's first gene edited babies. He thought he was going to be famous. He thought he was going to be claimed. When the nobel prize and astound the world and he was only right in terms of astounding the world. He was wrong and everything else to me. The worst thing he did was doing experiments on people that assad people on every that we're going to become babies where the risks were enormously greater than the benefits hank greely and the tangled tale of the scientists. The world who got caught up in an experiment that in his opinion should never have happened. Meanwhile on our other podcast. Science clear and vivid. I talk with marcellus or santos. She played a major role in building. The camera that was used to spot of massive cosmic explosion. The first of its kind ever recorded these events. They are really violent events so you can imagine to objects of approximately the mass of the sun being accelerated against each other with an incredible incredible speed and because of that the neutral star material cannot hold itself together anymore and so in the very final moments before the collision there is a disruption of the neutron star and that is what creates the fireworks so to say that we observe marcella source santos and what this collision of two neutron stars revealed about the expansion of the universe next time on science clear and vivid for more details about clear and vivid. Sign up for my newsletter. Please visit alanon dot com and you can also find us on facebook and instagram at clear and vivid and i'm on twitter at alan old. Thanks for listening bye bye.

rwanda malaria west africa brazil jacqueline nova gretz Hamad unison mohammad sumitomo mohammed yunus united states gout diabetes los angeles sam polk alan alda Jacqueline nova Wild alaskan muhammad yunus
Kevin Bacons Six Degrees

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

43:42 min | Last month

Kevin Bacons Six Degrees

"I'm alan alda. And this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. You just need to take me out of it when you take me out of it. The concept of it is really a kind of important than beautiful concept and that is that we are all connected and we see this now so much during this pandemic right The what what you'd go out and do in your life affects other people. And that's the that's the connections so i didn't really anything about philanthropy or about what it would be. All i did was went out with a friend because i didn't even know how to do this. We got the website six degrees dot org. I just purchased it for cop of bucks or something and that was just the beginning of. That's kevin bacon who we've enjoyed as an actor in dozens of movies and just being in all those movies made him. The subject of a game called the six degrees of kevin bacon if you would act it in a movie with someone who had acted with someone who had acted with him. You were that. Many degrees of separation from kevin bacon and other actors would be asked. What your baking number. I was interested that kevin was able to take this game of trivia and turn it into a philanthropy to help make the world a better place. This is really great to talk with you because first of all. You're such a busy guy. I don't know how you make time for this I make time. Because i love you and your work and i wanted to talk to you. So there's always for that that's great. I'm so impressed. Because i i were cards do but i don't think i could fit into my life everything you do. Do you know what what impresses me an awful lot about what you do. Is you website and your philanthropy. What's the official name vinyl. Six degrees daughter here. And this of course came out of you being named the center of the universe about twenty twenty five years ago. Yeah exactly everybody in show business's six degrees away from you. Apparently apparently yeah And you know when that when that whole thing happened it was just a couple of college kids just kind of having fun in their dorm room and they came up with it and they happen to pick me and they they they could have picked a a lot of other people. They could pick you the done. Some kind of a you know mathematical equation. I think christopher plummer is maybe the most connected person ever and They ended up with me kind of randomly. End them you know. I was very resistant to the idea. Because it was a joke. And i really take took my work so seriously. You know and i didn't really want to be the the the bottom joke and and you know you know were actress. We got pretty deep seated insecurities about them and and otherwise why would we get up in front of millions of people say ally exactly that. We're we're trying to Override ara posture syndrome pretty consistently and And yet it just didn't go way you know it just it just kept hanging in there and so i thought to myself I was at a point in my life where i was trying to figure out some kind of way to do a little bit. More kind of giving back you know. I think that when i started out like a lot of young performers i was necessarily like super super self involved and really really just You had myself at the center of the universe and and then eventually you have kids and were things happen in your life or you start to spend a little bit more time looking at the newspaper or or personal Relationships have sort of impact in. And i started thinking maybe i just need to do a little bit more of giving back in a way. I've been extremely grateful for everything you know Have in the other thing about the six degrees thing is. I've i've always thought to myself. You just need to take me out of the when you take me out of it. It the concept of is is really important than beautiful concept that is that we are all connected and we see this now so much during this pandemic right What you'd go out in do in your life affects other people. And that's the that's the connections so i thought well what what what can i. What can i use is our brand. You know i. I was so impressed with paul newman. And the way he took the took the food and and somebody loved to do and just raised a whole bunch of money with that. I was just kind of i didn't really anything about philanthrophy or about What it would be. All i did was went out with a friend. 'cause i didn't even know how to do this. We got the website six degrees dot. Or you know. I just purchased it for a thousand bucks or something and was just the beginning of it. So we're constantly changing and morphing and figuring out how to do it Which we try to use a certain amount of Kind of celebrity. Just because that's kind of what. I what the idea of it you know the six degrees thing. That's what people relate to but i'm really interested Across the board in a lot of grassroots organizations that are doing cut good work down on the ground. So it's so be my feelings about things that need help and and and ways to reach out are really scattered. Because i find myself at one day. I pick up the paper and it's like all i'm thinking about the environment and then all i'm thinking about is is is You know social injustice and then all of a sudden. I'm thinking about cancer and then i'm thinking you know what i mean. I'm really like go. So that's a little bit. What six degrees dot org is like a little bit you know. Spread out it. Sounds like the idea of six degrees a kind of permeates the whole philanthropic notion in the sense that you make people aware of their connection to things happening locally far away from them that they might not have otherwise heard about might not have felt they were connected but you connect them and give them a chance to to to help out the do they. How if i if. I went to the website and i wanted to be part of this effort. What would i be asked do Well there's Ways to to volunteer. There's ways to look for organizations. That are in your neighborhood that have some kind of focus on something that that you are interested in and then we always have some new sort of Piece that were that were of kind of supporting For instance we were supporting during the pandemic A couple of great grassroots organizations that were taking restaurants okay and using those restaurant employees. Who obviously were were a lot of them were out of work and the restaurants were closed and had had no clientele but there were still people that they were able to make the food and then take the food to frontline workers specifically hospital workers. Not even getting. The hospitals were overrun. They weren't even getting time to go out and a bite to eat so we took a local restaurant in a local hospital and Everybody wins. It's so interesting that you're able to take something that you felt held you up as a joke at your own expense and turn it around into something so positive and productive in in a human way. It seems easier to a lot of people on you. Think why think that's a job at your expense who you must be very entered. It's hard to be in that spot. I've been at spot to and it says it doesn't always seem like a compliment. You know just just the other day. I read something commenting on actors and their careers and the ended. Basically they referred to me as you know having done some but best known for the six degrees of kevin bacon. You spend your life as you did Deciding that you were going to devote your entire being to try to do something well into work and bust your ass to try to be good at it and then something else sort of comes down. Sometimes it's a little bit hard to to appreciate. I mean like if if it's if it's one piece of If it's one piece of work i can kinda understand that you know what i mean because then you go well yeah. That's the thing that people saw the most liquid tempting from left field Deal it's a little but listen Somebody said to me the other day they were talking about there were talking specifically about meryl streep by actually have worked for with before and i really agree with this and they. They were saying you know that. They so admired her because she took her work so seriously and herself. Not very seriously. And that's kinda like the way i am you know because Yeah i'm serious about my relationships in my my my family and trying to be a trauma best to wake up and be able to look in the mirror and feel okay about myself but don't don't take my own image or whatever that seriously i'd rather i'd rather just throw myself into the work to the best of my ability Every time off the bat you know try to swing for the fences and an and and do something that has value put in the time and then when it comes to may you know i don't i don't care that much about it. I don't really care how people perceive me specifically you know they couldn't be more evident in your podcast. Which i i didn't listen to some of it. I had time to listen to more than i episode so far but it made me laugh. It's really bizarro. Piece of work and It's like an old like a radio show with with a whole soundscape and the story. The story line is so crazy. Had your own expense was called. Last degree of cass baker india. And hit this guy with your car and you bring them home and are kind to him mainly because you don't want him to sue you. I'm curious curious curious. Edrich as i'm sure you know as your wife. Yes she has my wife when she says to the gheit. Tell me about yourself are you. Yeah yeah it was. Yeah it was very nice to do the part. I didn't know where i was going to where we were going to go to next if she decided not to play cure but she made fun of herself to. That's great and you and you do work a lot with your your family would you. You've been doing music with your brother. Your brother michael isn't yet micheal yet. You've been making music together since you were kids. I think right within now you've heard for the last twenty five years or so you've been you have a band together we do. We just played a show. Actually i'm speaking of working with family. we just last night last night wrapped up A movie that cured directed. And that i'm in and that our son travis scoring and we're in rhode island and Just go incidentally we had big brother show in rhode island like a half an hour away so on a on a. We often fridays and saturdays in this particular movie. In of on friday night a lot of the crew came in we had a we had a show. It was one of our first. our first shows. live the pandemic. You mean right. Yeah you do you write your your your own music. D day brought it to you and your brother collaborator. Do you do we collaborate some We used to write a lot more I start see. I started writing when i was really young. probab- at michael too. I mean he started writing probably when he was ten He's ten years older than me. I started writing when i was about twelve and but he was a trained musician. he he. He took music lessons in played the cello and was in the all city orchestra in philly where we grew up and was like real. You know he was like the real deal musician. I didn't have an instrument. But i would still hear melodies and lyrics in my head and i would sing them to him and he take the guitar piano structure The song a figure out what the changes were based on just gone up by baba you know and then And then eventually picked up guitar really only tool to write. It needed something to play to be able to put these song ideas down and we started writing a lot together as my guitar. Skills got a little bit more advanced. I think i didn't. I didn't necessarily need to write with him. So so we right along so at this point. We don't write that much together But the albums are generally During the pandemic put out our tenth album There's gonna release split between half. Half of them are mind. If i do leave oakland half of his if he definitely your songs are really melodious and you reminded me as i was listening just a little while ago to one of the most fun and interesting interviews. We had on this podcast with paul mccartney. Because i said to him how do you personally come up. I ask them. How do you come up with the tune. The noodle around is a d. Hear it in your head i is. It happened and he says he noodles and anyone over to piano and started noodling and trying to fish for song and it was really exciting influence. That's amazing to makes me wonder how you do it too. And how do you arrive at a melody. Yeah i. I think alex i don't think of them. As sometimes one comes first in one comes later like sometimes the lyrics sort of are the far the genesis of it and sometimes the array of for our corp progression is is the genesis of it or for me. Even i'm i'm very rhythmic so like sometimes i like i feel like i wanna do like. I just hear some kind of drum thing. And then that that's what puts me into the Into the into the groove of of the song so basically you know. Come up with sort of either lyrical idea. Or or or corneal idea. I'll start to play the changes and find the melody. The goes around those changes. And it's funny. Because i you know i on the iphone is those of voice voice apps you know our voice notes apps which are so fantastic for songwriters you you hit it and it. Just records recourse pretty. Well actually. i mean. I've actually lucht moving within just gone crazy. But but yet. And sometimes i'll go back and listen to the actual progression of a song over like you know to be like august thirteenth august seventeenth august. Twenty are all dated. And i'll hear a completely different sorta music-hall idea and a lot of different kind of lyrical ideas also gives you change to refine it little by little. It's like like an like senior derive out of improvisations. Sometimes it takes eighteen times before. It's a finnish scene even though you improvise you think the same scene every time. Yeah carolines asked me she said. How can you when you're writing. Something how come you play it over and over and over yet. And i said well yeah. That's exactly it. And and one of the risks of writing something at recording it and then taking it out and touring with is that all of a sudden you know you're in des moines man. You end you the song. Is you know it was recorded a year ago. And you go. Oh that's it or it should all right. They should have gone over known. Yeah yup yup note are up and entire key auburn. Entire steph like like i should have been playing it in in You know a flat instead of know. i mean. i'm sure you've you've had this experience where you rehearse a play. You go through previews you open. And then like in the in the fourth or fifth week on a on a wednesday afternoon you deliver a line and you go. Oh my god. That's that's it. That's so ingrained in me to win. I'm the stage and it's opening night. I i actually make a deal with myself. And i say don't be upset if you're still doing this place six months from now and finally really good because it's gonna get better and this is just the start. I love that. So that's great. That's a deal you make with yourself. Yeah that's the trouble is that that's the night that counts. I'm gonna hold onto that onto that people have ask me. What's the difference between acting on the stage and acting for the camera when we come back from our break heaven vacant. I compared notes on our experience in dealing with those two very different forms right after this clear and vivid can be downloaded for free because it supported by our sponsors and by as they say people like you but there are no people like you. You're you we wanna make sure you know about dot com slash clear and vivid. That's where if you love hearing from the extraordinary guests we have on our shows. You can become a patron and get early access to special videos and at the highest tier you can join me in our monthly get together online. I think you'll find out the listeners to our podcast often as much fun to hear from his our guest. We're grateful to you all thank you. And don't forget to check out. Patriot dot com slash clear and vivid. This is clear and vivid. Now back to my conversation with kevin bacon. I was thinking of what lebed schreiber said when we talked on this show about how the combination of inspiration and technique the things you have to remember technically when you're acting and the things that you have to be overcome by without knowing in advance what they're going to be the inspiration. He said an interesting thing about that. And i wondered about what your reaction to it is because he was talking about it as someone who had played the clarinet i think professionally as a young man so he was a musician. And you're a musician. And he said that combining those two things inspiration and the hardcore technique is a lot like making music. I absolutely agree with that For instance if i write something and then i start to play it with the band and the first few times through barakei figuring it out at you know we're kind of stepping on each other's toes sometimes and but then eventually caught up it hits the sweet spot and it really really. It's overuse word really is true really starts to grew in all of a sudden you You find something new a lotta times for me. It's finding something new in the malir finding something new in the That is going to just feel interesting. And it's fired. And i feel the same way about about acting At about certainly on the stage. But but but filmmaking to i think the comparatively if we're talking about music when i look at Working in the studio recording. I think that's very much akin to making a film or television thing because you have take to you're in a controlled environment you Have gotten a chance to rehearse. Do a master. Now you're coming in you got coverage you got all this kind of stuff. And there's a lotta gear around and and but you wanna hold onto the the ability even if you have all that technique which comes from a lifetime of living on the set knowing what cameras do lights and how the whole process of the day is gonna go. You wanna hold onto all that technique but hoped muse comes in and sits on your shoulder and in in you know take too you know you laugh on a line that you would never even thought about laughing and it just you just go holy shit. That's like i. That was cool. That was fresh. It was a lot. I was in in the moment right. That's what you're hoping to find it according studio That you know everything is set and everything is is is well rehearsed but that you can also just find something you know leslie say let's you know. Let's let's play the tambourine and run it backwards. Whatever and i think that Doing it theater is really much more akin to playing live. Music have a show. It's essentially the same show. I mean you may set switch cassette lips up but that night that you're sharing only with those people in that dark room is never gonna be the same and that the ideal that that it will never be the same that that's the ideal exactly exactly and it can't gets stale as you know if you're on a show for months and months of the possibilities as thing with with a with a the musical act if if you've been playing a lot playing a lot and so part of the technique is to get yourself back to the the moment where you can get inspired you know. I think that's part of the technique difference. We movie acting in stage. Acting is really a big thing to me i to me. It's a big difference. I i started on the stage and it took me who really longtime to get comfortable acting in front of the camera crews on the stage for me when the curtain goes up you walk out on a diving board you take a bounce and you get up in the air and you don't hit the water for two hours put in the movie you have about fifteen seconds of acting and then they say cut or maybe get a couple of minutes and if it's going to be a thrilling experience you're lucky if it happens during those few seconds at the cameras turning. Yeah yeah yeah Did you start on the stage. I did yeah. I started on stage. i i got the new york In nineteen seventy six I did a year at a circle. The square theatre school. And i was a classic new york actor as a waiter in know working in What we like to call toilet bowl theater were abso- robert a lot of off broadway off broadway And joke guy. Gets in the cabbie says take me to an off broadway theatre. The drivers is you're in one. So i know what you mean yeah And and that was my world was was my home and it was really exceedingly. Important to me I wanted to be on stage and maybe hopefully movies too. But i really loved i loved the stage in and i have to say that you know. Listen i i. Don't i don't like to get into that old. Cadillac fuddy-duddy snobby thing. But i think there is something about the The training in the discipline that it takes to do a week. That if you haven't experienced that at all if you've only really come up through The television or film. I think you're missing. You're missing something fundamental about what it is that we do for a living. I know there's great actors who have never been never will go anywhere near the theater but It was really important and really really a formative for me. I think it's hard for somebody to come back to the theater or get go to the theater for the first time after career and on in film because by then they don't have the time that it takes to get accustomed to the theatre takes years to to know how to be intimate in a big house. It does it does and also obviously you get super super judged for doing it. I mean even now you know. I think i haven't done a play for identity. Play at hartford stage about the two years ago but even now the idea of doing a play new york. It's it's it will be considered a sort of like a return to theatre or like a horrible hollywood actor acknowle with accurate hewitt theory. As there's there's there's there's something about that i mean. I always go back to that moment. That remember on the first night we had an audience it was a it was a staged adaptation of Rear window and I was in in in in this. I was on crutches up standing there. And i got the cast on my leg and a backstage and that feeling comes rushing back of like holy shit. I mean anything can happen here. It's butterflies then. I don't get butterflies on a movie set in a. It's like a other chance. Yeah it's like my living roman Good at a lot of ways. Because i'm not become more more relaxed in my work because i really really know this place. I love this place. But i think having butterflies as a at any age as performer. As a creative person is is really really important. It's important to make it wakes you up. It's a good feeling. I get much more alert. When that happens really i liked the alertness. I know you have to go before we end our talk. We always end the show with seven quick questions. Okay they're generally ab- in a rough way to do is communication relating. What do you wish you really understood. What was i wish right now. Wish i really understood The cultural divide in america things like making vaccines politics turning pandemic into a political tool is is really baffling me at this point. How do you tell someone. They have their facts wrong. It's a really good question because the problem with the internet is that it's a great leveler in terms of facts. Because you can. Have you know a hundred thousand incredibly smart and talented and dedicated. Scientists for instance. Explain something scientific and one guy who's a part of your cousins right posts some complete bullshit and both of those things in the course of your day are probably going to be equally impactful. You know to you. That's what the internet us. And and so it makes it really really. It makes it difficult. I i i don't know and i get to the point where i go while i don't wanna give up on you know i don't think about people i don't wanna give up on on on on on change in elimination and And and truth but it it gets. It gets harder and harder to try to figure out ways to explain k. Change of pace for the next question. What's the strangest question anyone ever asked you. Well i would say it's kind of a question One time at the bacon brothers show a woman asked if we would sign her prosthetic leg wilted herds of braised visit. Yes absolutely and there's actually end up being a really caught a very touching and moving story that came from this in effect we've Methods woman and number type. She's come to a few shows. She was sick and in the hospital and had to have her leg agitated and really said specifically that she listened to the music to get her through and specifically to one song. And i can tell you as a songwriter. You know if anybody if you write a song and anybody says that it affected them at all and two wonderful story. Yeah yeah okay. How do you stop a compulsive talker We'll have you stopped me in you. Know rank is one year Let's see yet. Oh wow that is. That's a really good question. Oh my god. I can't tell you how many situations i bid where it's in the question. Suppose you know how to do it. I'm not sure rhino added do it. Either i don't know how to do because sometimes people get one a loop. I've tried in the past sort of like reverse psychology and sorta taken the approach of saying. Well tell me more about that. That's interesting approach did it. Every i've tried it. No it doesn't work it off in double or triple double trip. The america creative idea like that okay. Let's say you're sitting at a dinner table at dinner party sitting next to someone who you don't know. How do you strike up a genuine conversation with that person. Oh i i'm i am very very good and very interested in hearing about people and i will say aware you from tell me about your family and most people are pretty ready to to eventually go deep in. I i enjoy that. I i i really do. I know that with the cure Whenever we're with couples. The surefire goto conversation starter is. How did you guys meet. Sometimes breaks bad what well like well. They immediately see that they have different versions of the fact that they have these different versions makes them increasingly more annoyed with each other. There's been a couple of times when we thought okay. I give these guys. Three months tops. I do only because we ask that question. That's funny you got. You got the rolling on the wrong with the f. What gives you confidence. Oh i don't really know where my confidence comes from. I think that if i knew i would be able to tap into it and turn it on like a switch. There's two ways of looking at Confidence confidence in one one is it's just Cockiness you know. I think that certainly as a young man. I had a lot of that But it wanes daily. You know and i have to figure out a way to get it back but i don't really know exactly how i access it very interesting answer and i can identify with a lot of that last question. What book changed your life. You know it's it's it's. It's funny. But i i wrote a book which probably by today's standards would be looked down upon. I would probably have to read it again but it was the book iron john. I don't know that what is it. It was a book about men in a book about was kind of leaning. It was sort of like a post feminist book. Kind of leading into the idea that The industrial revolution destroyed The idea of apprenticeship which was an important part of becoming a man a A rite of passage. The we add that that once the industrial revolution went away. People started moving away moving away from home. Men were really going through a a rite of passage anymore than book. Talks a lot about the existence of different mythological tropes about Manhood but one of the things that i always remember from the book was that in mythology. There is this idea that the prince always has to steal the key from underneath. The queen is mothers of bet in that the key yes sneak in at night in reach under the bed without waking up his mother and steel this key. That's going to unlock. You know the golden box or whatever it wasn't it's something that this gets repeated again and again and again at all these mythological stories and that is the fundamental breaking away of The the the apron strings. And i never heard that myth. I've been walking around all these years with an empty keychain totally different. That's great that's such. You did a reflective idea and there's a lot of other stuff like that. I'm sure there's a lot of misogynistic bullshit in there too. But but at the time i i it something me so you did you. In fact find a way to get the key in a four way. I did quickly tell this story. My mother was a A very Active anti war activist and This is sixty right. And i figured out somehow on my own philadelphia had no no theatrical. People in my family and i was probably about Fifteen and i hadn't. I hadn't graduate from high school yet I'd figured out a way somehow to get an audition for a little sort of like a commercial spot. Or whatever and i got it and it was a they were gonna pay me five hundred bucks or something like that which was outrageous and the spot was for Rotc and my mother got wind of it and she was furious and she said you can't do this. You absolutely can't go out and Be part of promoting You know young men joining the army. And i said if it's five hundred bucks and she didn't speak to me for you know week and to me. That was kind of the moment took the key. Yeah there always is a point where you have to say right or wrong. This is where i see myself. And i'm i'm defined by this decision. Well you've been really reflective and thoughtful. And i appreciate it into really interesting conversation. We covered a lot of ground to well. Let me just say how much i admire you. And your work and It's an absolute pleasure to get a chance to chat with you. I'm sure our ships have passed in the night before but It's it's really fun to get an opportunity to do this with. Thank you kevin his great to talk with you. Thanks so much. This has been clear and vivid. At least i hope so. My thanks to the sponsor of this podcast and to all of you who support our show on patriot. You keep clear and vivid up and running and after we pay. Expenses whatever's leftover goes to the all the center for communicating science at stony brook university. So your support is contributing to the better communication of science. Were very grateful. Kevin bacon has starred and more movies and television shows than you can count. Perhaps most famously. Footloose apollo thirteen and a few good men in theaters and most recently city on a hill on tv with his brother. Michael kevin just released the tenth album of bacon. Brothers music you can catch up with them at big brothers music dot com and his very strange but very funny podcast. The last degree of kevin bacon is available on spotify. Meanwhile check out the work and the opportunities offered by his nonprofit at six degrees dot. Org this episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham shed with help from our associate producer. Gene shoemaker are sound engineer. Is erica wong. And our publicist. Is sarah hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple podcasts. Stitcher what wherever you like to listen. Nexen are series of conversations. I talk with my mba bialik. Her acting career began at the age of eleven and as a teenager who starred in her own sitcom but then her life took a turn. I originally was really fascinated with with biology and with dna. But once i took one of my first introductory classes at ucla and we learned about the neuron. I literally had a moment where i said. This is the level of understanding of the universe. I wanna have the fact that neuroscience is the science that explains consciousness in speech and degenerative conditions like it was just. It was all the things about the universe that i wanted to understand at that level. I actually left academia to be home with my children. Meaning i got my doctorate And then did not take a post doc position and eventually that led to me returning to acting because i was running out of health insurance. That's the truth. And i ended up on the you know the most popular comedy in america by accident mayan bialik and how acting led to neuroscience and neuroscience led to acting next time on clear and vivid for more details about clear and vivid into sign up for my newsletter. Please visit alan all dot com. And you can also find us on facebook and instagram. At clear and vivid and i'm on twitter at alan old. Thanks for listening bye bye.

kevin bacon cass baker Edrich alan alda lucht rhode island carolines christopher plummer paul newman barakei malir meryl streep michael square theatre school kevin micheal paul mccartney new york
Unresolved: Sarah Beard

True Consequences

50:11 min | 20 hrs ago

Unresolved: Sarah Beard

"Hi i'm robyn water from the trail when cold if you are unfamiliar with my other podcast. I often cover stories from the television show unsolved mysteries for the past five years. You've heard me talk about these cases on my own. Now's your chance to hear me have in-depth discussions about them with other people. I want to welcome you to my new project. Path went chile where i will be discussing in-depth with my two good friends and co host cases that i've covered on the trail when colt need my co host. I one is jules. Hi i'm jules from the podcast riddle me that true crime and have a trans personal counseling. I'm not a psychologist or diagnostician. Don't get too excited. But i can't wait to analyze these cases with us two amazing humans. You've already met robin. Now meet dr ashley wellman. Hi i'm ashley i have a. phd in criminology. Law and society. And i specialize in trauma victims and survivors. I've spent a great deal of time. Working with families left behind after homicides with a cold case unit based out of florida. And i'm also a professor of criminology. I'm so excited to be chatting with two of my best friends about the cases that everyone can't seem to get enough of we hope in doing so that we will have a clearer perspective of what may transpired. Oftentimes actually will be totally in the dark. Jews and i will be telling ashley story. She may not know much of vote so all of her reactions are genuine. We will be releasing on all major platforms april eighth. We hope you will join us. As we attempt to. heat up some ice cold cases. The path went. Chile will be available every thursday on all major podcast platforms consequences as a true crime and mystery podcast with stories based in new mexico and the american desert southwest. I'm your host eric. Carter dean the story of sarah. Beard was once the most well known unsolved crime in new mexico. Everyone knew her story. It was featured on unsolved mysteries in nineteen ninety four but since then the episode was taken down and the story has been lost to time. Sarah story is tangled. And there's a lot that goes into it. It's still an open case. And it's worth remembering the events of december eighth nineteen eighty-eight. Sarah beard was a student at the university of new mexico and albuquerque. She was studying sociology and had elective classes in art. She had a close circle of friends and she had embraced. The rastafarian culture and spirituality her circle revolved around that belief. She was very close to her parents. Despite having a small apartment in knob hill she often spent the night at her parents home and they would drive her to school off and on on the night of december sixth. She'd spent the night with her parents the next morning. She made her parents breakfast and says she wanted to go back to her apartment to take a bath so her father gave her a ride home. It was cold and windy in albuquerque. That day the sky was gray but there wasn't any snow in the forecast. On the afternoon of december sevent- sarah was getting ready to go to class when a man stopped by her apartment to borrow some paints for an art project. Sarah didn't know the man. Well he was a friend of her boyfriend. He was known to be homeless often hanging around campus asking students for money and syrup felt sorry for him she would let him borrow things or would give him money on occasion. Sarah even let him stay at her apartment one night when her boyfriend was there it was cold outside and she didn't want him to freeze to death. She gave him some blankets and let him sleep on her couch. The next morning he was gone she was angry with him because he had taken the blankets and some money with him. She only knew him. As what data on this day sarah would dada into her. -partment told him where the paints were and started to put her shoes on so she could go to class. she also confronted him about the money and the blankets. He had taken from her. She asked that. At least the blankets be returned with dada became angry. He approached sarah from behind and held a knife to her throat. He forced her into a closet where he told her to take her clothes off. Sarah put up a struggle but in the end did it. She was told when he had closed off with. Datta said he didn't want her anymore. He told her to put her clothes back on relieved. Sarah did as she was told and started to leave the closet then. He changes mind again and told her to undress. Sarah once again did as she was told but was upset to think that she had almost escaped from this man she began to cry as dada was raping. Sarah he forced a chant a rastafarian prayer over and over. She knew the prayer he had recited at several times for her. He also asked her several times as she was sleeping with anyone else. She told him that she wasn't later. Suet tell police that she had the feeling he was raping her for someone else when he finished. Sarah sat up on the edge of the bed hoping that he would just leave. She couldn't look at him again would dada slipped behind her this time he had a hammer with dada hitter in the head with a hammer several times and then raped her again. He stole more money from her and left. He cut the phone line and locked the door on his way out. He left her to die. They're sarah's wounds were extensive. She was in and out of consciousness. She was helpless. She tried banging on the floor and the walls for help but she wasn't strong enough to make much noise a neighbor would later tell investigators that he heard someone banging on metal in her apartment but it didn't last very long so he thought she was working on a project. Sarah was supposed to call her mother at seven o'clock that morning but that call never came. Sarah had plans to go christmas shopping with her mom susan. Susan came by the apartment to check on sarah at around ten thirty a. m. but when she knocked nobody answered. She left a note on the door for sarah. Susan tried calling sarah several times. But sarah never picked up. Susan didn't think that was unusual either. Sometimes sarah turn the ringer off. If she wanted to take a nap or was studying. Susan waited to hear from her daughter on eighth. When there was still no word from sarah. Susan went by the apartment again this time. She noticed that all of sarah's blinds were closed that was unusual for. Sarah never closed her blinds when susan got to the apartment. She saw the note that she left. The previous day was still there. Susan was worried about her daughter before the now she began to panic. She went to the property. Manager's office and got a key and the herself into sarah's apartment. The i think susan notice was that there was blood on the floor. Coming the bathroom then. She heard sarah moaning and trying to cry out for help. When she went into sarah's bedroom she saw her semiconscious and bleeding on the floor between her bed and the wall. Susan picked up the phone and sarah's apartment to call nine one but realized that the phone lines were cut. She eventually found a phone and was able to connect nine one as this was before cellphones. She had to go in search of another phone to borrow when police and rescue arrive. Sarah's apartment became a crime scene. First responders stabilize sarah as best they could. And to presbyterian hospital in albuquerque where sarah underwent emergency surgery for a traumatic brain injury. She was not expected to live. Doctors believed that she did live. She may not be able to function. Sir did eventually make a full recovery but it took months and months of rehabilitation crime scene. Investigators found several pieces of evidence in the apartment. They found a notebook withdrawing in it. The drawings had tag lines on them and they said things like zionist filth and what data. There was a bracelet on the bed. That did not belong to sarah. It was a medal rastafarian bracelet. They also found the claw hammer that was used to attack her. Investigators noticed that. Sarah was dressed but the way she was dressed. Look like somebody else might have dressed her. After the attack they found towel covered in blood. It appeared that someone had either tried to clean up the blood or had tried to help sarah when sarah arrived at the hospital. Investigators were there to meet her took fingernail clippings collected sarah's hair after her head had been shaved for surgery and they did a sexual assault for insect exam. During the exam. Collected evidence from sarah's body. Sarah's mother was interviewed at the hospital she told investigators about a phone call that sarah had received a few nights before the caller wanted sarah to come out to the parking lot and talk with him. Susan told investigators that sarah had recognized the voice. Someone she knew but she couldn't put the voice with the name. Susan also told investigators at sarah refused. Meet the man in the parking lot. Shit a friend staying over that night and the girls locked the doors and windows and went to sleep when sarah was able to speak with investigators. She told him that the man and the phone was dada. Susan also told investigators about sarah's boyfriend. His name was window davis. He was known. By the nickname dillinger. Davison moved from miami florida to albuquerque with his mother to get away from the rastafarian drug culture in miami. He had been in trouble in florida and was hoping attorneys life around in new mexico. Rastafari is a religious based culture that began in jamaica in the nineteen thirties. It's afro-caribbean religion that basis belief in the bible based their homeland or holy land in africa. Rastafarians could be considered an ethnic group since they have their own shared heritage their own religion and their own language. They have one god who is referred to as jaw and he lives within each individual they follow rules of living naturally wearing their hair dreads adhering to patriarchal gender roles and following a strict diet known as a tall Tico santa fe several times. He made some times people up. There i mean. He came on as cool deadlocked with high values. Stock verbally but leaders was not consistent. No what is i had like. I thought dreadlock was style tile show half numero it is a hairstyle but Dreads really have to do with an injunction but a set of rules sort of for people who is a numbers chapter six in the bible. If you separate yourself to god there these things have to do a one of them. Is you have to let your head wrote that. The locks is ahead of your hair growth and so you let your hair grow naturally without combing without cutting without doing heat to it. And so for us defy. It's a spiritual thing but there are people who anybody to hackel here so if people who use it you know Wrong ways or they just wear dreadlocks to be cool or so to where you're concerned in your friends. That are chats awesome Really gangsters criminals and killers. But there's many people who have assumed that look who are that. I know in order to consider arrived. We all everybody every yeah degree as sort of like infiltrators something ultra filtration through the end of it. All it takes is a couple of people missing things to bed line on everybody currently think of anyone that might have a pitcher guy. Anybody you said. He spoke ethiopian Yeah he used some hurric- words and probably anywhere. Okay don't let with fluent no. I don't think he was. What i i feel that route study might have been through renton and routes Somehow too but it's not an easy language to learn in. And i think he was just. He was impressed at this guy knew. Pack you know because rosters relieve you of your directly turns selassie so learning that language are or even a couple of words in it is valley bank. Yeah investigators found. The davis was outta town when the assault on sarah occurred. He had gone to alabama to visit family few days after the assault. Sarah regained consciousness. But she couldn't speak her father. Jim devised a method of communication with sarah. She was to squeezed his hand for yes and do nothing. If the answer to a question was no using this method. Jim began to recite the alphabet for sarah. He told her squeeze his hand when he came to the letter that would identify her attacker. Jim slowly went through the alphabet. He began to lose hope as he neared the end of the alphabet with no response from sarah. He thought his method had been a fluke then. He reached the letter. W and sarah squeezed his hand. Jim asked if the name of her attacker was what data and she squeezes hand again. They had a name. Jim and susan went to the police with this information. But investigators told them that unless sarah could verbalize her attackers name. The information would not be taken into consideration. Sarah hill and as she healed she began to speak. She told investigators that her attacker data. She also helped him draw sketch of him and she told them that he had deformed hand his right hand was bent so that his fingers formed a fist and it was covered in scars. She thought they were burn scars. She also told police that would wasn't from the us. She thought he was from africa but could speak english and spanish fluently. A sketch artist was brought in and sara worked with the artist on a composite. Sketch of with data. She described him as a rust authorian with his hair in dreadlocks. He was five nine two six foot tall and had a medium build. Sarah didn't believe he was really arrested. Foreign she said he didn't have the same values as rastafarians usually have israel analyze. Also they were leery of him you. Yeah i don't think they really hung two months with him because they israel especially really is first impression is very negative on it and in it. Didn't it didn't stem from anything without a said or did that first incident. You know it was a coin. The coin with his majesty like this he was trying to give law give israel acquiring like that. Just you know as a token of ron one roster to another. he's denied set. And it was right after. I think the first time he's had met him too lines out they would take coin right. Police continue their investigation now. They had information that could help them. Ide- the man who had so brutally assaulted. Sarah how hard could it be. Defined arrest of our in with a deformed hand. Investigators questioned sarah again and again but she could give no further information by january of nineteen eighty. Nine seemed that the case had begun to grow cold. Sarah would be in recovery for months and some of her answers were confused. At one point she thought would data had beat her with a spoon. Then she thought it was a knife. She never remembered much about the attack or anytime immediately after the attack. She told police that her mother had told her that he had beat her with a hammer. She remembered specifics about the rape. Though she remembered the chant and the way he asked if she was involved with another man she also remember that he raped her several times before he beat her vetter rough composite sketch of water and a composite sketch of the deformity to his hand. But that was it. Tell you that there were things that he did. Go on i remember. His hand was paralyze or he seemed like he was paralysed. She always held in this position and remember any scars sir. I don't remember seeing any scars on it but he often asked us to to put out cigarettes in his hand or just past one in his hand like that you know. He did weird things with his hands. Sometimes he even magic hand stretch out more now look speakers stretching out so i don't know if he really could move that hand or not when he played drums with it though he checked it. Fingers were curled on the other hand. Klay flat soda meeting. No hand was as paralyzed as he wanted everybody to believe or was not when he gives you remember any scarring on him now. I can't recall whether there were okay but there definitely might have been because he was weird about having people burn things in his hand. You have unweighted. I guess he wanted to show you. Daddy was totally that. It didn't have any feeling in it or something you know whether it really did not because i remember a couple of occasions where it looked like his fingers were stretching he could have some movement in his hand wasn't totally paralysed No he never told us weird. Got that over. That was how his hand out that way now during You should have asked games weird if you offer him food or something. You always use that hand you know. It was like he was trying to get sympathy. Some kind of weird way from from using that hand is receiving hands. You know when really couldn't couldn't grab or he gave the impression that couldn't grasp and you never saw him pick use it. I don't know did accepting his playing drums. It was still curled. Then investigators gotta tip a homeless man named sam johnson was brought in for questioning all the criteria of dada including the deformed hand. They arrested sam johnson but instead of putting him in a cell. They took him to a local park. Police asked sarah to come to the park to idea man but she sent her boyfriend. Wendell davis instead. David told police that. Sam johnson was not with dada. The police let him go. Investigators infiltrated the homeless community in albuquerque and found some of widowed associates. They all said they hadn't seen him. Since early. december police interviewed a man named milton. He was also part of the roster culture he hung around with dada and was friends with dillinger and sarah. He said that. Sarah was a witch and he said that would data believe sarah was a witch. Also there was. I think what he was saying. I was a witch. And i i mean i have no idea where he without exactly but why i mean i did. I probably did tell you about this. Or i politically spot or something. There's this homeless guy that That i knew in that regatta new displays people hang from union area in. And he's always coming by my house like kinda give me give him hot smoke Usually when one time he came by and i gave him. I let him have the contents on my ass just like really rude but i mean but anyway that's what they did and He ticket and everything heat bit. He found like the little pieces of piece of hair lacks in matchsticks in there and stopping. He liked decided. I was trying to kill him in. This is now this was the other guy. And he's like super periodic. He's out there. But at any rate he was like melissa witch. And so and i heard at least that would he told the nose which That was like new. Maybe a day or two before without attack me discussing guys knew the homeless guy another man named richard halpern whose nickname was route. Told police that would have had a girlfriend in santa fe would go there to visit her. When he wasn't in albuquerque. He told police at the girlfriend's name was at least lucero. When police tried to catch up with her they had found that she had moved and left. No forwarding address. Richard also relates some disturbing information. About what data. He told police that datta hated whites. Particularly white. women would oughta blamed whites for ruining his life. Sarah was white. Investigators did find out that a man matching dot description had visited lucero address before she moved but the neighborhood reported. This said that he hadn't seen the man sense police it also found that with dada had made a long distance phone call from windows phone to done lip tire in grand island new york. When police tried to track down the call. They found that the phone call went to shipping and receiving desk knowing. Recall getting a call from albuquerque on that phone and no one recognized. The name would dada. This led investigators to obtain a subpoena for sarah's phone records as well. They found that datta had made several calls from sarah's phone. One of the calls was to residents in bountiful. Utah and that is where they caught up with lisa lacerra she said that she knew dada she also told investigators that he had a visa from liberia and that his father was english. She said she had met him in santa fe but hadn't seen him since before christmas. She then told officers that she wouldn't say anymore. And did not want to be involved on february tenth. Nineteen eighty-nine crime stoppers featured sarah's case as their crime of the week they immediately got a hit. Someone who worked with job services called in a tip that a man named doyen gumbu came in looking for work. The tips are said. They remembered seeing his work visa and he was from africa the also remember that he had disability but couldn't remember what the disability was. Investigators now had a name and they worked frantically to track down doyenne guebuza who the contacted the department of immigration and naturalization obtained all records for doing gum boo boos criminal. History was clear he had no criminal history in liberia and not so much traffic ticket since he arrived in the us investors found that odd but they were convinced the gumbu was there man through the records that they obtain. They found that he was married. To a woman in nashville. They contacted his wife and she told investigators that she hadn't seen or heard from gun boo since nineteen eighty five. She didn't know any of his relatives or any of his friends. He simply vanished. They asked her if gun. Bouza was violent in any way. She said that he wasn't she told them that. He traveled around the country looking for work when asked about his disability. His wife said that she had never known him to have any kind of disability. She did however have an old picture of him which she sent to the police in albuquerque. Police showed the picture to wendell davis. Sarah's boyfriend davis said the picture didn't look anything like what dada when they showed the picture to sarah. She said she couldn't be sure whether it was him or not. The picture was five years old. And what data had changed a lot. The police issued a john doe warrant for the arrest of were data aka gumbo gumbu bond was set for a hundred thousand dollars. Cash only there was a grand jury hearing and doing gone busey was indicted for criminal. Sexual assault attempted murder assault and kidnapping Zoo was arrested in nineteen ninety-three in south carolina and was immediately transported to albuquerque. After months in custody. Sarah was brought into identified. Gum boozers her attacker. But she said that that was not what datta khumbu did not look anything. Like what data. And he didn't have the same handicap. That would a hat. In fact come boozy didn't have any disability at all. He had been working in jacksonville. Florida from one thousand nine hundred eighty eight to nine hundred ninety nine for electrodes steel. As a day laborer he was building a school in jacksonville. He gave the name and phone number of the dispatcher. At the company and historic checked out he could not have possibly been in albuquerque at that time he also told the story of a man he encountered earlier in nineteen eighty eight while working at a temporary labor camp in jacksonville. He said the man called himself medicine man and that he performed budi. This man had a temper and was very easily angered doyen said. The man never worked but mostly hung around the camp asking for money from the laborers. He had scars on one of his hands. And that hand was deformed. It was bent forward forming a fist. Doyen said the this man couldn't use that hand. He also told police that he was walking with a cane. Doyen told investigators that quote medicine. Man was from the west indies somewhere. He didn't know where he said. That people feared medicine man because of his temper his looks and his reputation for working voodoo doyen said he only knew medicine man for a couple of months and he lived in the same rooming house as doan. Duane said the after medicine man left the rooming house. There was a burglary. His room was burgled and several items belonging to him were stolen these items included his passport his green card his birth certificate and his social security card doyen described medicine man as being a black man. Five seven two five nine about one hundred and fifty to one hundred and sixty pounds medium build and his hair in dreadlocks window and was shown the composite drawing of dada. He identified the person in the composite as medicine man. A john doe weren't was issued on january seventh nineteen eighty nine boozers name was added on march tenth and the case was closed pending arrest. This means that the case wasn't worked for four years the police had gotten tunnel vision and only looked for gumbu by ten gun. Boo was exonerated. The case of grown very cold without a name without anything else. There was very little hope of finding the man known as what data. We're gonna take a quick break and we're back in nineteen ninety-three. Several of his associates were interviewed again. They were asked to make new composite sketches and they were asked about his whereabouts Greg kaczynski alameda county district attorney's office in oakland. California prison is inspectors cindy hall and Lisa lucero the time is two forty. Pm and the seventeenth of august nineteen ninety-three lisa for the purposes of the tape Would you please spell your name and give your neighbor. La their own and were the location. Where thirty nine. Nine elston avenue in over we we've been through Some questions already questions and answers that you provided us and i like to do is just ask you serious questions that mexico authorities asked us to ask and the first one is when and where did you meet versus you know for war on eight and then i think you told us that you met him do a near the art gallery galley and Somebody introduce you to this. Just just when was the last time you heard from him or saw a which was birthday. You see him. You know like by lifestyle was september. Eight eighty and emerson during the phone call. Eighty major parents house in utah phone call. You don't remember too much of what was said during that conversation. Now you have any idea where he might be right now mystical and is there any way that you know of today. Contact you or somebody to somebody that Would contact be you know. It's one that i knew he was friends. Went in but kind of thing report of albuquerque. Talking about i mean is there fitted university as long before he needs to chrissy credits before bernice. But you don't remember these extremes. They moved the Was it just like a house residence. And wasn't these people. Do i mean the man workers call this woman to read too was the why barring finance won't i don't know what you mean a rastafarian. Dreadlocks barring loses so and that's what the also without i mean they were did too fad by way. Five is yeah. Is there a rust. Apparen- community in albuquerque. Or is it just kind of a loose-knit organization outdated say that most noah. I'll just man work. I'm sure did now. You mentioned that Piece of identification that the dot had at one time it was a passport and remember the name of the country that was on the passport lows. That you don't remember what the name was. It was on it. Did he ever reproduce himself. Your presence. You heard by any other name but were dada. That was the only name but did he talk about having friends other than this may be a friend in miami anywhere else in the united states. The ever say how long you've been in this country. You mentioned time. You thought you had a photograph of the look for while we are here. You couldn't find. It is the possibility exists that you That you do come across. Have photo gives off You know anybody else. You might have problem gay just for the record. Would you start safe. Them had had the coat and give his physical description. Were you remember. Him is height weight. Facial hair or lack of word hairstyle. Anything like that right man right you dark black okay does useful. You lose dan or love these regions and the long days and a sal holt scars on his face are marks. The identifiable marks hands. You mentioned something about one of his hands and more like closed fist. Almost all straight in the fingers. And what do you believe that. Did he ever mention anything about this case. Last time you talked and you know or anybody by the servier. Did you ever tell you that. He had been arrested anywhere before number. Something like that. You ever get much into his personal life at all. In in times you saw him talking to you ever talk about like his family or his country then remove more so as far as the you know that the last time you talked to him would have been a phone conversation that the sorties mentioned was i think the twelfth member nineteen eighty-eight. Believe at that time you might go with miami or mexico any ever talked about going to mexico before we knew yeah any particular reason why he would want to go to mexico nervous but the child gets yeah shoot and straw moon aspects theories of salt see coins vision. I think you should move on the graphs if you had of him. Was it like a photograph. You took of him by himself or xm saw that picture the way he looked. I mean the dreadlocks and science a whip. If there's anything else you can think that on my car with you Please give me a call at any. We'll see we do 'em they to you to yemenia interview from nineteen ninety-three. She said that she saw dot his passport. And the picture look like him with dreads and everything. But if we listen to karen miller's version of the story. She said that she saw datta's passport and there was no picture interesting fact about the eighties and early nineties. Pictures were glued onto passports. So it's quite possible that would dot had taken joins pitcher out of the passport and replaced it with his own. Yeah did i never really thought about where he was his. But i never thought very much about res until after this whole incident. Sarah and then i started trying to inc will receive would is an accent and it wasn't to me. I appreciate apollo. He might claim that he was even from africa. Sarnoff it was an african Totally is it has. It's possible it seems to me. That rooks said he had seen a passport. Exhibitors african wasn't passport could've been anybody's passport another distinction things cripple him in late. Nineteen ninety-three karen. Miller was asked to do another composite of dada for unsolved mysteries for the unsolved mysteries. Episode that aired in nineteen ninety-four. A second composite was done with karen miller and this is the current composite of dada. That law enforcement is using. Could you describe why the would data to me is about move. He's not tall slender billed Or slender skinny and he has a wide is at the temples in area sharply as from from this jawbone squish our games carnival pointy space. Start his cheekbone for high prominent. Or you're kind of very wide average by is exciting because she bumped as cheap. Just look a real Was thin kind of thin air. If the slender like what. I call wiry stints guard. The john doe warrant is in place even now though the case has been committed to the archive. So it's not actively being worked. I would remind everyone that this case is still open. And if you have additional information about the attack on sarah beard or the location or identity of dada. Please call the albuquerque police at five. Oh five to four two cops. Sarah's case carries important lessons even today. I believe that much more could have been done to solve this case. And i think that may be more solvable in twenty twenty one than it was in nineteen eighty-eight without a dna sample on file with daughter may never be caught in the late eighties and early nineties. Dna was often not run because it was an expensive and time consuming task because of this dna tests. Were only run when the case was prosecutable in other words if they already had the suspect in custody dna would be run. It didn't appear that. Dna was ever run on. Sarah's case at all many rape kits have been lost over the years. Some evidence in violent crimes gets destroyed after a certain period of time may times after the original investigator retires or has left. The department evidence will be destroyed sometimes over the course of the investigation. Evidence will be lost or misplaced. The chances that would datta has committed other. Violent crimes is high. There's a high probability that he committed violence against women even before. Sarah he got away with it before and he'll keep going until he's caught when dna evidence isn't submitted it encourages perpetrators to keep committing crimes and often these crimes escalate. Sarah was extremely lucky to have survived. Her ordeal rape does go under reported in the. Us many times mostly because survivors a rape field. That they won't be believed. Sometimes they feel that they are being put on trial before. The police even find the suspect a lot of times. It's because survivors. Don't wanna face the accused in court. Because they're afraid they don't wanna relive that nightmare over and over again they also don't want to be judged on their lifestyle or past experiences even less survivor decides to press charges. Rape is very hard to prove out of every one thousand rapes committed in the us. Thirteen will be referred to a prosecutor and only seven cases will lead to felony convictions. Many perpetrators arranged for plea deals for shorter sentences and sometimes the plea deal saves a survivor from having to show up at trial so that they don't have to go through court. Proceedings cross examination by the defense can be particularly brutal. Defense attorneys will dig into every aspect of survivor's life and will almost put them on trial. There have been several. Tim's by legislators to stop this practice but at this point nothing has changed. Nothing has changed in the judicial process to make this any easier on survivors. If a survivor chooses to not prosecute a perpetrator. The district attorney can choose to prosecute the case without the survivor being involved. But that rarely happens. Dna evidence was new at the time of attack. The first time dna was used approve. Case was in one thousand nine hundred seven when serial rapist. Tommy lee andrews was convicted of breaking into to women's homes and raping them at knifepoint in florida. Andrews was sentenced to thirty two years in prison upon his release from prison. He was involuntarily. Committed to the florida civil commitment center for nine years he was released back into society in july of twenty twenty one. His victims claimed that he should not have been released. He should have remained behind bars the to tax that he was convicted of should have added up to over a hundred years in prison. Dna evidence linked andrew to twenty more rapes in the daytona area of florida. The andrews case opened up the discussion for law enforcement and district attorneys to consider dna testing as powerful tool in convicting or exonerating. Those accused of crime in the us. The fbi created the cota system and made it fully functional in nineteen ninety eight kota stands for combined dna index system. Any person convicted of a crime who has had dini collected will have their dna profile uploaded into quotas for comparison to dna collected at other crime scenes across the country by nineteen ninety. Nine forty seven states were collecting dna from those convicted of violent crimes. New mexico didn't begin collecting dna from offenders until two thousand thirteen now. New mexico does collect dna from crime scenes but under state law. They don't collect the from suspects. Without a warrant or probable cause in twenty twenty mexico had fifty four hundred untested rape kits dating back to the nineteen eighties. This was one of the highest numbers of untested backlog kits in the us. All of these kids were finally tested in. Twenty twenty one. And now you mexico has mandated that all rape kits be tested. Within ninety days sirs rape kept may have been among the kits that sound the shelf for forty years. This will contribute to the fact that her case has gone unsolved for this long. I'm not sure that the dna was even taken in sarah's case sarah's was the first case in new mexico to indict a suspect on john doe warrant a john doe warrant essentially stops the clock on the statute of limitations when there is a suspect in a case that can't be identified by name john doe warrant is issued if there is a statute of limitations on the crime. This warrant will stop the statute of from earning out before they find the perpetrator normally a john. Doe warrant is issued in reference to dna evidence left at the scene of a crime. The warrant in sarah's case made no reference to dna only to the composite sketch done up with data and the deformity of his hand. In sarah's case there is no statute of limitations first degree criminal sexual penetration and first degree attempted murder had no statute of limitations attached in new mexico the other charges against what data included aggravated battery with the intent to commit a violent crime and kidnapping in two thousand eighteen paramount nanna labs began doing a process called dna pheno typing. This process essentially creates a composite. Sketch of a perpetrator without having a dna match this technology can give traits such as i color skin color clean and hair-color using a person's genetic code it can also reference race and nationality the composites generated through dini vino typing are uncanny parabak also does genetic genealogy tracing beyond quotas they run genetic profiles against those who have voluntarily submitted their dna to databases all around the world genetic genealogy match dna to family members. Going back six degrees then. Law enforcement can reference public records to find perpetrators through home sales census and tax documents. Several cases have been solved using this technology. Most infamously this was how the golden state killer was found and arrested once again. Sarah beards case is still open. If you have any information about the attack on sarah beard or the location or identity of what data. Please call albuquerque police at five. Oh five to four two cops. Thanks for listening and stay safe new mexico. I wanna shout out. Jackie morandi for researching and writing this episode at also. Like to shout out victoria zeller for the initial research related to this case. And thank you to everyone who has supported this show over the last three years. Thanks for listening to true consequences. Follow me on facebook and instagram at true consequences. Pod and on twitter at true cons pod. True consequences is listener supported. If you'd like to support this one man show. Please go to patriot dot com slash true consequences. Thanks for listening and stay safe new mexico.

sarah Sarah albuquerque Susan dada susan Jim new mexico wendell davis dr ashley wellman american desert southwest Carter dean Sarah beard partment dada hitter datta florida Chile ashley sam johnson
What I Learned from 70 Podcast Conversations [#76 - Bonus Episode]

The Storytellers Network

30:05 min | 2 years ago

What I Learned from 70 Podcast Conversations [#76 - Bonus Episode]

"From cave drawings, to family histories, two stories around the fire. Humans crave order among chaos connection amid 'isolation. So we tell stories our mission at the storytellers network is to bring the art of story to the masses. Whether you're in marketing, you're an entrepreneur, or you're developing your own personal, brand, telling your story effectively can make the difference between celebrating milestones and collecting unemployment, the storytellers network strives to help storytellers tell their stories so you can learn from the best now your host Dan Moyle, storytellers network. I'm your host. I'm doing well. And I'm so excited to drop this bonus episode in your lap. I recently spoke at Kalamazoo social media week and the lessons that I learned from seventy podcast conversations Alba storytelling. And it was an incredible experience. I really enjoyed bringing all of. The lessons from these tremendous guests that I've had over the past five while five and a half seasons. Menzies six right now. And from the seventy conversations even ones that I haven't released yet. What I've learned from these conversations. Absolutely. Just a just a ton of fun. I can't hit enough. I, I I'm at a loss for words, for so hope you forgive me for that says a word guy that kinda sucks. But anyway, but I brought these lessons and I still them down to ten overall lessons from other different conversation than use examples from each guest. I wanted to throw that out there share with you, as a bonus episode so sa- back in joy. I know you have an important story to tell and I wanna help you tell the story better. And with more confidence, whether it's for business personal brand nonprofits story, will set you apart. And here's my story toward the end of twenty seventeen I was helping clients book podcast interviews, as a marketing tactic, I was also appearing on podcasts myself as a guest expert, and I was beginning to learn all about the podcast community. Now, let's got me thinking, maybe I could start my very own show to connect with people who could use our podcast, it'd be marketing services, and maybe some of those people could be tapped here podcast hosts that we wanna get to know for our clients. Plus, I'd be talking with smart people in the marketing, and content creation world myself, connecting and learning as a loved to do as a marketing. Geek and a fan of story a show about storytelling was all winds for me. So I spent about two months learning about launching a podcast attacked into the community and amazing mentors, like Jamie J. Of the show, culture eats strategy and his business partner in the production company podcast pilot, Sarah parish, then I envisioned a new season every quarter so I could keep it fresh for me. And the listeners and I laid out my hope for all my potential of us for the year. My launch was all set. For January first twenty eighteen a Monday morning. And now nearly eighteen months later, I'm more than seventy episodes into the storytellers network. And I love it. I've had dozens of inciteful inspirational conversations. And I've learned a ton and I want to share that with you today, but first clarification kind of lesson. What is storytelling? Why wanted to spell something? It's not Hansel and gretel, or game of thrones story is actually the best way the human brain processes and retains information and scientific, for instance rather than saying, this is our product, you might say something like Sharon was concerned with efficiency issues at her manufacturing plant, and she was sent plant manager. She looked into logistic solutions and found our company and our solution. We implemented it, and we helped her increase efficiency, and she even got a promotion. That's a story. It's not summer camp counselor time. It's actually the best way to get an idea across to intended audience. So today, I'll share some overall lessons like the fact that stories can emotionally turning strangers into friends and prospects in the customers for so many of us. That's what it's really all about whether we're in marketing or sales, or recreating stories for entertainment, or for trying to raise funds for nonprofit. It all comes down to building an engaged audience that will support our efforts now, also show that, while the storytelling platforms may vary. The power of story is the constant it doesn't matter if you're filmmaker or a social media influence her story wins, every time that we'll go through each season together, and you'll hear from some, I guess, I've had the immense privilege spending hours with some tremendous minds and business and marketing communication writing. Filmmaking podcasting and more. So I'll bring you a little taste of insights from different walks of life from storytellers. Finally, my goal is to teach. But I think more important than that, at least in my mind anyway, is to inspire, like I said, I know that you have an important story to tell the world, it doesn't matter if it's a business story, a personal story, a social Justice story, or a tale about why you work for a nonprofit, you think the thing that separates us from all other life on earth is story. You will walk away with insights and inspiration. Both are. Let's dive in our first lesson is this. You have not because you asked, not now when I started planning my podcast back in twenty seventeen I knew that I wanted to talk to interesting people. Now, also knew that I'd want some of them at the beginning to have an audience of their own C launching a new thing I knew I need some help. I mean I had zero audience to offer these early guests and I figured, I guess with a big audience shared are interviewing people liked it. Maybe they stick around and build audiences for my show. But I also knew that I was a virtual, nobody in this vast world of media. I mean, I'm barely known in my own house, or hometown, who wanna join me for an interview on the internet. So reset the guests that I personally knew who had their own platforms and audiences and would likely help me out, then I envisioned some of my dream guests and I just reached out now. I'd had people ask me how I ended up with well known folks like zig Ziglar sometime or near time bestselling authors like Eric Lyon mayor with marketing legends like Seth Godin on my show. The reality is I simply asked assure, I've heard no more than once. And that's okay. Micro said, not right now CBS news. Reporter in storytelling genius, Steve. Hartman said, no. Even my own friend. Laura fitness, hubbub said, no, thanks. That's completely fine. I'm okay with. No. I've heard yes. So much more. And I decided early on that. No is okay. His always the radio. Silence. That really bothers me. But anyway, you need just ask. And here that looks like. So this is what it looks like the plan on an entire year of interviews. This is twenty eighteen my first four seasons. They can see the main columns. Plus, I have listened, the lower right corner, there of people who didn't get back to me, or who said, no, but you can see that I planned out exactly who I'd ask where they fitness season, and how the communication was going at the time, of course. This is a completed year. So it looks easy in the same color. But here's what it looks like right now and may have twenty nineteen now season six as going live and I'm working on recording for season. Seven entertainment, storytellers. You can see how it all comes out. I have a couple recorded a couple of schedule. Many others waiting to hear back from order schedule, as you can see I'm not afraid to Aim High now because of that I do plan on more than enough people. In case they don't answer me tell me now but it always seems to work out in the end. So again, simply ask and yes, I am hoping for Tim Allen, Jeff Daniels, because here's what happened. I interviewed David Lauren's of pure Michigan. He knows them, and we had such a great conversation, and he liked the show so much that I. Simply again asked if he make an introduction. So taking notes jot that down at never hurts to ask speaking of part of my ask for my potential guests is, of course, story, see cast the vision of podcast that would inspire people to tell better stories on their own. A nasty Corey helped me to connect vogue emotion with my potential guests early on. And that is the second lesson stories, hold power so many of my guests share with me. How powerful stories are in their own work. David Mirman Scott Seth Godin Joe poets, National Geographic, photographer, Robert Miller. Simon cynics writing partner David meet. They all agree the motion and connection is what moves people. So whether you're trying to get people to support your nonprofit to, to buy from your business or hire you for your next job, or maybe agreed to appear on your podcast stories are what connect people to you and guide them to make the choice. You're hoping for here's an example of a story. This is the invitation that I emailed to. An early guest, I was sharing my mission. My wi- my plan and how it all comes together because I love it. When I plan comes together, of course, I use a little flattery in my and I want my listeners to learn from the best which we both know as them, of course. Right. But overall, this is an authentic story that helped me to book, some serious talent on the show. So take this note threatening things down stories, hold power and use that power telling the story of my show helped me find those early guests. Okay, another overarching lesson, a big picture thing that I've learned, which is actually caused my branding of the show to evolve a bit as the stories change the world. And fact, what am I guess, from season three villi long desires to change the world with a capital w as she changes the world's small w of those whom she serves? He see villi wants to end racism, one story at a time she found an organization called bay cap which teaches under served at risk youth how to tell stories specifically through video, and their students have gone on to win Emmys, create national advertising campaigns film documentaries in more not only have those stories change the world's of the people making them. They're actually changing the world at large these stories of these young people, and what their America looks like bring to light, the real life, emotional stories that humanize this big idea abroad. Sometimes scare us. You our country faces. So instead of thinking about racism in general terms were able to disconnect from it the public. Actually hairs personal narratives of their fellow human beings making all the more real. It's so much harder to disconnect when you're emotionally invested in others that's empathy. So here's you know, to jot down stories change the world. So those are the big picture, things let's get granular now in season, one, I interviewed writers, these were authors of books bloggers business writers, inspirational writers, people entertainment all varieties of written word, storytellers, and the biggest lesson I learned, you have to write consistently Tammy up, a west Michigan author turned a tragic story of the death of her son into a story of hope of faith and inspiration. During our conversation, Tammy told me that she never thought of herself as a storyteller before the show, even though she wrote a book and would tell the story of Daniel. She didn't wear that badge a storyteller at said for Tammy, it was almost like therapy, her writing helped her deal with this tragedy of losing her son twenty years earlier. And she hoped it just my. Help others, but Tammy realize and share with me was that being a storyteller all sorted with having to sit down and actually right now decide lesson for you not everyone considers themselves a storyteller have given themselves permission to where that badge. That's you right now in this. You're not alone. Others feel that same way. And let me tell you, you are a storyteller. So Eric Wyan mayor is a blind man, who has taken up the mantle of adventurer despite what others, see as a disability he wrote the books, touch the top, and no bariers and launch in entire Nobis movement and organization. The Novartis foundation helps others with different capabilities or disabilities. Whether they're born with them, or maybe they're military veterans with mental and physical health issues postwar, and within that and through his books and other writings, and even speaking, Eric uses story to inspire others to overcome adversity. An Eric caused that writing process credibly powerful. Finally, Marcus shared join me on season, one to talk marketing and story author of they ask you answer and marketing thought leader, Marcus says a big part of storytelling is to simply answer questions helping others and it can all come through, and a story format doesn't have to be this complicated epoch thing. He says it nothing beats clearly when it comes to effective communication quite like reading. The next group of storytellers that I went after podcasters. I figured why not connect with the community breaking into you. Right. Plus at the time I reckon, I might be able to reach some big names in the podcast world to connect them to the company. I work for at the time and it pretty much worked. All right. Making a name for me, personally, and for the biz for the business in the community. The biggest lesson here is that to be a better storyteller. You just have to create now. It's a little bit like the last lesson of consistent writing, but with podcasters and other mediums it's a little bit different writing certainly part of it, but creating is more. So let's get into those details. Now, first of all, it doesn't matter if it's your story, or if you're picking up the mantle of someone else's story, see Kevin Miller hosts Ziglar show. It's the legacy of legendary speaker zig Ziglar Kevin co host some episodes, with zigzag son. Tom. What am I guess from season five, but mostly does it on his own, especially when his interviewing guests while Kevin is speaking for the Sigler brand, he still manner? To inject his voice into that story. Now, the consistent creation of interviews is what makes Kevin a powerful storyteller. They see if Kevin didn't create all the time, he says, his skills would atrophy in his reach would strengh being a powerful storyteller means creating consistently for Dave Jackson. It goes beyond creating even though that's a major part of day story. He's created so many different podcasts has so much experience. They turned it into telling history through his vehicle, the school of podcasting brand, including a very popular an amazing podcast. In fact, he was inducted into the podcasting hall of fame in twenty eighteen now in addition to creating a ton, Dave suggests experimenting with different ways to tell your story and he's launched podcast about his health journey. In addition to multiple shows teaching people about podcasting more Dave tries new tools and platforms all the time. He's not afraid of him. He experiments with podcasting, along with live social media, video, and speaking engagements, and so much more. My take away from Dave, try something new. See if it works in keep creating. Being a powerful storyteller means creating creatively, and trying new things finally from the podcasting world, I'd like to introduce you to Jordan. Harbinger Jordan keeps creating despite kind of losing his own brand. The he helped start and, cultivate, and it all happened relatively recently that didn't phase the storyteller. See a few years ago, Jordan launched the art of charm, a book podcast, a website, and so much more than he abruptly loss at all a dispute with his co-creator, but he didn't let that stop him. Instead, Jordan took control of his story, and his personal brand, and just kept creating being a storyteller didn't stop when things got rough. And part of becoming a great storyteller is just keep creating in honing your craft until it's great or Jordan called our conversation sticky. Now, the Jordan harbinger show is even bigger than what he had with his previous show, and it's all his story, gray storytellers aren't afraid to keep creating in the face of adversity. They create Taneja Asli. So if you're taking notes take that one. You had to create with creativity and to nasty. A season three kicked off my conversations with video creators. Filmmakers makers of marketing videos, photo journalist mental health advocates. Yep. You heard me right. Mental health advocates you'll see what I mean in a minute, but it was a great season. And my biggest lesson here in its power to connect and move people. Video is second only to face to face interactions. You see in-person connection, maybe where it's at was stories for most of us, but video is very close behind and Nick Neten takes the seriously creating short documentary style, but he was or many films for his clients at celebrity branding agency, now, whether it's taking an entire team to the slums of Port-au-Prince Haiti chasing down child traffickers for powerful documentary film in nonprofit or it's creating an award winning brand story for used car says operation. That's right. Award-winning used car sales nicks video brings a power little else does in the world in when story connects branding really blossoms. It's amazing what you can do. A five minute mini film or a thirty minute business documentary. I mean, think about all of singing competitions shows, we watch, it's the stories that move us. Those short vignettes can be powerful. And video also has the power to heal. See coupled with virtual reality or immersive experiences. Video is extremely powerful and Sarah hill knows this. She's the founder of story up and his brought together, a tribe of storytellers psychologists developers filmmakers, audio engineers, and technologists to help others and story up created a product called helium nets. He'll, like make you feel better that helps managing Zayed's post traumatic stress end more through VR using video stories has actually changing the world of mental health and also brought experiences to people who can't get out of their homes, if that that's how Sarah and I met, I when I was vice president of talents out on our flight in southwest, Michigan Sarah, in her business, partner, Michelle spry came to town, something called honor everywhere. And we took v. Our headsets to an assisted living facility or to literally bring Washington DC to veterans who couldn't make it on an honor flight of their own video transported, these men and women to our nation's capital and move some of them to tears video storytelling is incredible. Also, powerful when it comes to turning a complicated thing into something we can all understand besides being a fantastic author audiobook, narrator, rand fish is co-founder of MAs, an SEO tool. You may know and maybe use, and the creator of the popular SEO video series, whiteboard. Friday also co-founder of the new company sparked totals check him out there. But while Atma's rand Paul video to work to connect with an audience over a complicated issue in a relatively simple way. And it worked ran taught many everyday people like you and me, the basics of SEO helped democratize jargon filled complicated industry, just a little bit. And he did it through video stories so serve your audience, and tackle issues in new ways. And if you haven't thought about video before you just might want to because it's time to broaden our horizons, and grow beyond our comfort zones. Now, here's the deal, I don't wanna just word vomit on you with this presentation. I wanna help actually inspire real change for you right now. So here's a quick exercise to put us into action. Storytelling doesn't have to be complicated and video doesn't have to be this huge ordeal mad respect. Video production companies out there in the world. But sometimes they can simply be from your phone. So here's what I want you to do take out your mobile phone record a quick story about your day. Where are you, what, are you doing? What are you learning? How do you feel about it? Maybe who would you ask to be on your own podcast because remember, you're not afraid to ask anymore, right? Sheraton social media Facebook live, maybe linked in video Instagram story, put it on YouTube, whatever you wanna do, but check it out and use the hashtag storytellers and tag needed if you can't, let's make this video storytelling thing, a community event, a gif you minutes, go ahead and pause, this and take charge of it. Okay. Welcome back. You're over halfway through all this. Let's get to lesson seven this is from my fourth season social media storytellers I had a ball with this. When I learned that, while many of us may think that social media has ruined real storytelling with our ADHD, no tension spans. And we've railed against the terrible. Downside to it all social media is really the next frontier in storytelling. And it's an exciting time to be a creator. In fact, for Geraldine Reuter social media helped her find an audience for her blog in her book, and it continues to act as an agent for social change. Not only does she share stories that she feels need attention in the world, but her husband actually challenges her to read things in social. She wouldn't normally consume broadening perspective all something from that getting new perspectives and truly making social media social interact with kindness and curiosity inside. No Geraldine also uses social media storytelling to connect with the community of writers out there, just like her, and it's a great way to find like minded creators. For comedy writer. James break, well, known as exploding unicorn on Twitter in mount basically everywhere, else, social media, quite literally changed the course of history, telling journey James uses social to test jokes to hone his writing skills into build his own audience. And with somewhere around two million dollars across all platforms. I think he's doing something right? Of course, it didn't always go exactly as planned in a couple of ways. First of all his secondary Twitter account, he had called very lonely. Luke, a Star Wars parody, actually, went viral first, but because he's been consistent in creating on his own main account, when that account exploding unicorn, went viral, people actually stuck around now, social media also helped James break into a writing career he'd always dreamed of becoming a published book author and columnist for the Indianapolis newspaper, the Indy star a handed up with an invitation to become a regular contributor with his own column just like his childhood hero. His goal in life. You see with a humor columnist, Dave Barry, and it took social media storytelling to get him. They're a bit nontraditional. Still need convincing on the power of social media storytelling will Michael steles nerd, turned this new way of wasting time and into into an entire career focused on an emerging industry three serious stuff. He launched social media examiner and of course, the huge event, San Diego social media marketing world now, much of his success, of course, came from blogging in a main website, but critical component was and still is social media storytelling. In fact, Mike use YouTube as a social media platform, and storytelling vehicle to promote the brand and event, as well as build a loyal audience. The journey follows Mike and his team as they grapple with off things related to running social media marketing world driving awareness, consideration indecision for the event, and it's tickets, it's a great use of multiple platforms for story, kicked off twenty nineteen with the fifth season storytellers network and my favorite season, so far inspirational storytellers, I know I shouldn't have a favorite but I can't help it. This is so much fun. Now this season, I learned the stories. Motivate, the reality is facts. Tell stories sell numbers, don't usually met it, we don't remember him, but the emotional component of story can change the course of life for people. Maybe you're selling story of community healing through stories of struggle violence and murder and redemption. Like we'll Latif little you see we'll went to prison for killing a man and a game related shooting in Philadelphia. But now he speaks on things like redemption and forgiveness. In fact, the victims own brother and will work together, and they help the youth in their community and will tours the country speaking, he has a book. He's Tech's speaker story has changed his life, and he's changing the lives of others with his inspirational tale rather than just talk about numbers of gunfights gang numbers membership, how many deaths he saw or years in prison. You know, the days that kind of thing all his numbers, will shares, his very personal story of coming from a broken home of abuse life on the streets, violence, prison and. Demine. Those numbers can be powerful in some capacities. Sure. But we know that the real power comes from story ends up people alternately connect with in where they find inspiration. David Powell history of adversity is helping him to sell a new career. David's story can be boiled down to his brand motto. No arms no feet. No problem. Sometimes you have to not only tell your story, but show. And here's what I mean. So day when David was younger, he told me he tried to get a job at a call center in his hometown. He said it was easy job in the company was in such need of people. The basically anyone got hired except for him. Apparently his interview went Lally said, but he didn't hear back and he knew it was going on. This wasn't new to him. So he marched into the business spoke with the director of the call center improved that he could do the job. And now he's doing the same thing with his new career working to book, motivational speaking gigs in the Kansas region, and working to expand his reach by showing that just telling at motivating people with the power of his story. Look for good things to come from David Powell in the near future. But how do we own our story and turn that into inspiration for others? Let's Arthur Joseph does what he teaches. He's the vocal ordinance. Coach to major media personalities over the years. He's coached mega stars like Angelina Jolie. MS myth. Ona-led sorts Nager the game day morning team. NFL network Zoe Dacian L at many others. Now a big part of Arthur teaches is had a listen, change vocal inflection change pace and more. Arthur says one inspiration for his teaching in his style is the difference between the music world and traditional spoken vocal performances. They says singers have the advantage of looking at music where tells them everything to do, but traditionally, as storytellers, we only have words on a page. Maybe so he teaches how to annotate those words, so they really come alive are there's episode is full of lessons, for storytellers Neil takeaway as this. When we own our voice with a capital v our voice, we own our power. Season. Six storytellers network. Focuses on those in the business world, I talked with marketing thought leaders business leaders sales professionals rockstar event planner and so many others. One of I learned like everything else, storytelling is evolving, and we need to as well. First of all, if you're in marketing, or sales, and these I to episodes of the season, don't scare the hell out of you. You are not paying attention. Seth Godin in Mark Schaefer, each tackle the current marketing landscape with me, and they re on some things in different others. Of course you can listen to the conversations back to back for that. But were they agree is that marketing, which is what we all have to do for stories to reach their audiences. Right. Will marketing has changed. You must think of your story is better than average in always strive to meet that expectation, by the way, read their books go. Listen to Douglas per debts. The marketing book podcast with their interviews for the cliff notes version. But that material is great stuff, and you need to check it out. So of course beyond the creation of story, yet to get it out to the audience, right? The problem according to Chad pilot. Is that most storytellers, especially content marketers concentrate their efforts in budget on creation, all, but ignoring distribution and promotion, he says that for every five dollars we spend on content creation will only spend one dollar on distribution and promotion? He says, we need to take a page from the book of television addict -secutive and flip that see they spent five dollars on distribution and promotion for every one dollars on creation. Shed also had an interesting take on storytelling any internet age. I'll leave you to hear that on the interview how else has story evolving will, according to the authors of the go giver. If we want our stories to get out there, we really should go beyond the usual tactics and give more. Bob berg. And John David man round season six of the storytellers network. The two part season finale, I interviewed each of them separately, and they were terrific in instep. It was incredible. The go giver, philosophy is to give more value than expected, which they both did do that with your story. And you'll build a grateful supportive audience. They both talked about what an incredible community. They've been forced to build through storytelling. So here it is time for my final lesson that I've learned from seventy conversations with storytellers nothing measures up to starting a podcast seriously. I've had to get more than seventy hours of personal instruction and mentoring from amazing thought leaders, and I've been able to connect with top tier storytellers that I'd love to have on my show. Like micro, dirty jobs, the way I heard it, Bob Goff, author of love does D J Nash, creator of the ABC show a million little things some of these were not right now. But some of them are in the works, and other amazing people like Joe patchy of content marketing world. Dave Sanderson who was the last passenger off the plane on the miracle on the Hudson is now a motivational speaker zig, Ziglar son, and CEO Ziglar, brand Tom, and so many others has spent time with me pouring out their stories, but no one, not one of them would have ever taken my message from me, if it weren't for having my own platform. I mean, can you imagine trying to call man fish Kiner Scott Monty and just say, hey, we talk for an hour, right? Unlikely. But if I have a platform, they've a reason talk to me, and I bring value to them. That's the key. So if you wanna learn more about podcasting, personal business or other maybe start your own show. I put together a quick start guide semi website, storytellers network dot com slash launch on your screen right there. So here's the ramp after seventy podcast conversations about storytelling. I've learned that you, you have not because you ask, so don't be afraid to ask. And as you ask stories pulled powers. You stories is he stories can change the world. And as a storyteller you have to write. But you also have to create and video is second, only to face vase, use video and get ready for the next frontier, it's social media. Now stories they motivate because while facts tell stories sell storytelling his evolve social week. Finally podcasting is powerful. We have any questions. Let me know I'd love to hear from you. There's my information thank you for watching. Hope you enjoy.

John David Michigan zig Ziglar partner Harbinger Jordan Seth Godin YouTube Sarah parish David Powell Dan Moyle Menzies Kalamazoo Tom Tammy David Lauren James Jamie J. Kevin Miller
Hank Greely: The Experiment that Shocked Science

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

45:11 min | 2 months ago

Hank Greely: The Experiment that Shocked Science

"I'm alan olga. And this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. He thought he was going to be famous. Thought he was going to be claimed when the nobel prize and astound the world and he was only right in terms of astounding the world. He was wrong and everything else to me. The worst thing he did was doing experiment on people people on people on embryos that were going to become babies where the risks were enormously greater than the benefits. That's hank greely talking about one of the scariest things that are now possible editing. The genes of humans in a way that changes can be carried down through generations without fully taking into account the risks. Hank really is a stanford. Professor who explores the ethical issues raised by biological and medical research. His book crisper. People focuses on an extraordinary experiment carried out by chinese doctor named hood. jen quay. this is a really fascinating story. The experiment dr hood did was was unprecedented. Right i did that come about. There are a lot of interesting things that i think made this possible. And one was the doctor who Was highly sought sought after. He was a brilliant young scientists trained in part in china and then he came to the us for his post. Doc and the chinese wanted to get him back and so he was offered a lot of money without a lot of strings. Attached to set up a lab in south china. Not only did he get money from both local government in the national government but he set up some businesses that got lots of money so unlike most scientists heated have to write a grant application. And say here's what i wanna do. Here's why you need the money. Please give it to me. He had money floating around that he used for this in a in a well prepared laboratory. So what did he do. I think it's important to describe what he did. Because on one level it sounds like a good thing that he did which was what so he got some parental volunteers couples where the man was. Hiv infected in. The woman was not a wanted to have children who would not have hiv. Which would bigger thing. He told him that he was going to try. And experimental method. That would protect the children from hiv. It was described in the consent form as the hiv vaccine. But what he was really going to do is use in vitro fertilization so take eggs from woman sperm from the man combine them so combine them make embryos and then use a process called crisper to edit the dna. What he was trying to do in the dna was to knock out a gene that seems to be very important in helping hiv to infect t. cells in your body which is the main way. Hiv kills people now. This gene is called c. c. r. five which stands for something. I don't remember and it is. It makes a protein also called c. Cr five if you make the gene if you break gene so it doesn't work. It will make the protein if it doesn't make the protein that protein doesn't end up on the surface of t cells. And if it's which are part of your white blood cells part of your immune system and if that proteins not on the service of the t. cells the most common version of hiv cannot infect this t-cells it turns out that about roughly one person in a hundred in northern europe doesn't have properly functioning cr five chains so they don't make cpr five. It doesn't go on their t. cells and they seem to be very very resistant to hiv. They've got a particular mutation that cuts out thirty two letters in the day. What who was trying to do was make that change in all the embryos he ed tried to edit about a dozen embryos only three really took so with two of them he put them into the uterus of the woman who's ex had been involved. He had tried to knock out that thirty two letters. He failed at that but he did knock out other parts of that chain so that gene shouldn't work so in theory he made the girls. These were two twin girls not identical twins resistant to hiv. In fact though he instead of making this thirty two letter deletion which we know exists in people can live to a healthy old age with. He made a new version. That's never been seen before. In the ovens we don't know hats gonna work and for one of the two twins he only was able to change. One of the two chromosomes that carried the gene. So she has no protection at all. The other girl Protected may not be an frankly. I find really frustrated about this. It's now two and a half years since this was announced at we haven't learned anything new about the health or the genome status these babies since november of twenty eighteen because the chinese government is not sharing that information. We don't know whether they're healthy whether they're sick we don't we don't know what happened to their. Dna exact life out of news of hose experiment. Get out that such an interesting story. So this got announced on monday morning in china the news broke it was actually an investigative reporter in massachusetts who found the story broke it and then decided the story has been broken. I need to do a big announcement. It broke monday morning in china. The very first report was in chinese In in the main chinese government newspaper which said chinese scientists lead the world and it was very favourable. Report a few hours later a hundred and twenty two chinese academics mainly scientists. But some some ethicists to put a letter up on we chat. Which as i understand it as kind of the chinese equivalent to facebook in which they said this was a terrible thing and not only. Was it a terrible thing. But this embarrassed china. This made us look bad in the face of the world. Two hours later the government puts out a notice. Saying this is a terrible thing. We're investigating seriously. I don't know whether that's that open letter made a difference. But i do know that before the open ladder. The one piece of response had been positive and after the open letter. All of the responses from china were negative so maybe maybe facebook words equivalent occasionally do some bit. Thanks let's go a little more deeply into what was wrong with it because the motivation sounds good. But why did he make a mistake so his motives. I mean you look too deeply at anybody's motives mixed right. He wanted to be in. He wanted to be famous. He thought he was going to be famous. He thought he was going to be claimed. When a nobel prize and astound the world and he was only right in terms of astounding the world. He was wrong and everything else. But i think the idea of trying to prevent. Hiv infection has merit. That's a good thing and it turns out especially in china where hiv infection continues to be very very heavily stigmatized with hiv. In china are not treated well That's that's clear. I think by impression is who i've never met so this is third or fourth hand. I think he may have been genuinely concerned about the plight of these parents with hiv china. But what did he do wrong to me. The worst thing he did was doing experiments on people. Decide people on people hun on on embryos. We're going to become babies where the risks were enormously greater than the benefits the potential benefits so the potential benefits to these little girls. Are that well in twenty years. Maybe if everything goes well they'll be less susceptible to hiv than they otherwise would but that's if everything goes right if there's not any health problems from it if we don't have a cure or better prevention trivia twenty years anyway we already have pretty good ways to prevent or treat hiv now. The benefits are small to these twins. The risks are potentially enormous because no one had ever done this before with humans. We barely even detonates with monkeys. Nobody knew and by this. I mean gene editing. The embryos nobody'd ever gene edited. Cr are five nobody ever made. The edit. nobody'd ever seen change. He made so. The risks are potentially enormous. The benefits are fairly small and their to the two most basic rules about doing research on humans is the benefits have to justify the risks are not necessarily just the benefits to the human subject that could be benefits to science or medicine. But we don't let people be researched subjects if the risks are normal in the benefits are small so science doesn't come to consensus very often right Scientists though they'll be a scientist to disagrees about just about anything as we've seen with the whole covet pandemic in most ninety nine percent of people will say x. but w somebody who says not ex- the closest i've ever seen to a scientific consensus is don't do this in people yet everybody. Every scientists almost in the world had agreed with that as did ethicists lawyers and others. Everybody except and sort of maybe a harvard professor named george church. Who's a very controversial character. There's an international consensus. That's been a reported that they're they're five ten different international and national reports saying. Don't do this at least not now. And he did it anyway and he did it in secret. He never told anybody who's gonna do it. He never ask anybody's he. He never opened a discussion about. This is about i mean. I hope the girls are okay now in terms of not knowing that he was doing it. I think i remember in your book that there were people scientists who were aware that he was planning to do it and didn't say anything in advance. Yeah that's a interesting issue. There were at least eight. American academics most of them scientists. So the one of them was an ethicist Three of them are actually at my home institution stafford and nobody reported. Nobody said anything about it Some of them knew he was planning it. Some of them knew that he'd actually started it I think one thing science needs and this is going to be. Tricky is to encourage snitching term on purpose. Nobody likes niches. Nobody likes snitching but reporting bad. Things is a good thing. Science has a very strong culture of confidentiality in part because santa someone get scooped by somebody else but i think science overall with a capital s. needs to say. Look if you see something. That's really unethical. You should have a duty to report it to part of that. He has you. Could you report exactly. They they needed that. Just say you should report it but they should give you some relatively easy way to do it. And that could be a national body it could be an international body could be something set up by academies science. It could be something set up by the whol now. i would not want to be. I would not want to have that job right because people have lots of different views about what's unethical and you might get a hundred complaints of which only one is very credible But i think we need to do that. And we see that in a california Had a really nice program several years ago to deal with doctors who had either alcohol or drug impairment and they encourage nurses fellow doctors to report them. The report should be anonymous. The doctors were not immediately stripped of their practice. They were told they were investigated. And if it was sad that they were impaired the head to go through a residential program in a six month probation period and that seems to have worked fairly well. But you have in those cases and authority with overarching power. Yes whereas in a broad scientific community that spans the globe you've got different governments different sets of values different motivations for praising it or condemning it and in that case within hours both so a absolutely right I am a law professor and a what. I'm really calling for here. Part of it could be law. You could have individual countries come up with law. You could in theory have an international treaty. Although i'm not very optimistic about any of those getting through successfully. But i think we need to. We can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good i think if the various academies for the w. h. o. or some other international organization even without legal authority says. You need to do this. Here's a way to do it. We encourage you to do it. We will applaud. Do if you do it. I think we'll see that one of the stanford people who actually knew about this is a guy who works on gene therapy particularly on sickle cell disease and he gave a talk at my center after this all broke and he said you know looking back on it. I wish i had told. But i didn't know who the tell me i could tell stanford but stanford had no authority and i had no idea what who to tell china about this so i think it's it's kind of a case of if you build it. They will come or at least if you don't build it. They woke up. Maybe it won't work but if you don't try it definitely won't work. It seems to me that inherent in what we're discussing right now. The lack of a single place to go is also at the heart of what to me makes ethics courageous and difficult and sometimes impossible task numb talking to an ethicist. So i want to say that in the most encouraging way. I think you have a really hard job. Congratulations on doing what you can. But you have no single umbrella of values over all of us. She's no single frame of reference. So how do you handle that. How do you handle the fact that one size does not fiddle differed people handle it different ways. Some people think there is a right answer. Some religion some find it in universal human rights This one is frankly as above my hatred. I don't i can't see how it can all be relative. I can't say well. The nazi ethos was fine for the nazis was ultra. I'm going to say that. I don't believe that but if i say another university human rights have got to say we'll where do they come from. And what are they are they defined. That's hard to do too. So you're right. I don't certainly have clear ethical answers to everything but some pretty clear answers to some things. Like the benefits of the research have to justify the risks to the people or people need to be told in advance when they're getting involved in research in what the benefits and risks are and they. They need to make a voluntary choice. When we come back from break. Hank really tells me about another very recent experiment that raised ethical red flags the research involved creating embryos by combining human cells and monkeys. Don't forget if you enjoy listening to the fascinating guests. We have one clear and vivid. You can help. Keep the flame alive by becoming a patron of the show. Clear and vivid and the oldest enter. Communicating science are both nine profit and your patronage of clear and vivid helps support them. Both you can become a patron at any level and get early access to special videos at the highest level. You can get fun in sometimes weird benefits like my recording of your personalized voicemail. Message heater with courteous dignity for the rambunctious among you a message with a certain amount of attitude take a look at patriotair dot com slash clear and vivid patriots dot com slash clear and vivid. And thank you. Fun is good and seriously fund is even better which is why pretty much every morning can find me slurping cheerios. They raised serious questions as they eat them. Would i gravitate to them. If they warned round how did they get round. Thought that up but the fun does then their cheerios. Those happy little os or a heart healthy food that can help. Lower cholesterol is part of a heart. Healthy diet and honey nut cheerios. Cheerios made with real. Honey they're really happy. They say if you hold the box really close to your ear and hold your breath you can hear them giggling. I don't know who actually says that. But if you wanna giggle with a healthy heart think about making cheerios. A regular part of your diet there one hundred percent whole grain oats in a happy shape. They make you smile inside and out. Be good to yourself and have fun. While you're doing it. Learn more about a heart. Healthy lifestyle at cheerios dot com and find honey nut cheerios. Wherever you shop for cereal this is clear and vivid and now back in my conversation with hank greely so the role of the ethicist then to fly. The flag of caution asked people to stop and think is this the best pass to take among the choices you have. I think that's one rule. I think that's one thing we can do. But but you know you say the ethicists. There are a lot of beth There i actually consider myself a law. Professor who occasionally does little bioethics does a little work in bioethics So what would the example of that of a little work in bioethics. Oh so there was just a really interesting scientific paper that came out last week week ago today about people who made embryos early embryos that had monkey cells and human cells came out in in one of the leading scientific journals cell and along with my friend and colleague need a fair honey from duke We wrote an eleven hundred word which for law professor is tiny at clearing our throat. Eleven hundred words and eleven hundred word commentary that ran in the same issue. Sell saying here are the things you should think about remember. This is only an embryo in a dish it did not become. It was not put into a monkey's uterus. It's not the fetus. Did not become a little. Uman key are m- key are monk men at quite sure what the right term is up. And so part of who is to say here seditious. We think you should think about here are an were not telling you what answer you should reach. There are some things where i willing to say. I will tell you what you should reach. If you're john kwee should never have done that experiment. But for the most part. I think a big part of the ethicist job as i see it the way i do. What what we do is to help people see what the issues are helped them. Think them through give them some precedents and advice examples about how people have handled similar situations. It's not to be a judge or priest and say You go to hell. Are you go to prison. It's to say look. Here's some here's some issue should think about here consider this. This might be more ethical a better way to reach the sense. Can i ask what they thought. The benefits would be of mixing monkey jeans with human gene. Sure it's really an interesting story. it's a the the lead scientist is a guy at the salk institute in san diego name juan carlos. Belmonte at whose goal is to be able to make human kidneys and livers and lungs and hearts inside picks in order to have organs for transplant. Fifty thousand eighty thousand. Americans die every year while. They're waiting on the transplant list. And you could do this with mice and rats but it's really hard to get the human cells to take in pigs. He's tried it and it doesn't work hardly at all so his hope was if he could get it to work at monkey embryos maybe he could learn something from the monkey. Umbrellas would help get it to work in pig every us. Is it the answer. No it's once one of fifty steps that would be needed before you could grow your own kidney in a pig And will it work now. Do i think it's a long shot. Yes but for all the people who die waiting for organ transplants. It's probably a long shot. Were taking too. But i'm glad you asked. That were the first thing she should ask in. Ethical assessment of any sort of researches. Why are you doing this. What's the potential benefit and and if the answer is oh. I decided it would be fun. You could do that as long as the risk is really really really the the great frankenstein. Freud premier theus myth that the scientist or somebody who is doing something just because they're fascinated by added without paying any attention to society. Let's relatively rare in reality in my experience who john being perhaps an example of it. But that's that's a story line. That's one of the ten grade plotlines right. That's a story line. It's a deeply embedded in our culture that it's easy for people to jump to it. Scientists need to science as a whole not every scientists. some scientists are bad at. This will be good at it. They will get better. They get good training in science communication but they need to explain the need to particularly a controversial things. Be willing to explain why they think this is a good idea to do it. In a context that says in We understand that if the government if the people the culture decides this is a bad idea. It's not something we should do. We have to justify what we do. We have to engage with society to convince them out. Why some of the things we wanna do make sense. Some of the thinks that may seem bizarre to like the embryo made of up from from a monkey and human sells. You know you raise an interesting question in my mind. There have been scientists who have expressed the idea that it's not their job to judge the value of what they're doing their job is to explore nature and find out new stuff about nature and the question that it raises in my mind is does science in general have the only responsibility or the people who are actually doing things that might be of questionable value. That might be riskier than we overall want to. They have a responsibility to reflect on it themselves. Jennifer dowden a did that early on raised to note of caution about crisper and by contrast one of the reasons richard feinman worked on the atomic bomb during the war. One of the reasons he went into a deep depression was that while they were making the bomb. All of the scientists have los alamos. Were excited about solving the problem and excited by that alone and it was only after they saw the results of the terrible explosions that occurred in the death of so many people that they began reflecting on it. I forgot to. I think it was taylor who said i am now. Become death or something like phrase like that from october. We've become sheva destroyer or right right. So there was an that was at the test at the test site where he saw the destruction that could cause but what about the responsibility to reflect on whether or not you're actually doing something wrong versus all you're supposed to do is learn so i can't prove any of this. It's problem with ethics. There's no Accepted universally accepted rule book. But i think if you are human you have to take responsibility for your actions. You have to think through your actions and how your actions are going to affect your fellow humanoids the ecosystem the world. Whether it's you know. Are you driving recklessly or not. Should you not be driving after that. Third glass of wine or is it should be working on this particular weapon system or not. I think that the blessing and the curse. Ob newman is speed. Self-aware so that we can recognize that we're responsible. Did we have responsibilities that our actions have morally significant consequences and once we can recognize that they do. I think what follows from that directly is we have an obligation to discharge to to do what we do in the best way we can or at least in the least bad way. We can't let me ask you. There's a third way science can respond to breaches like this and it has to do with humility. What what do you mean by that. So all of us including myself could probably do with more humility. But i find that sometimes scientists sciences dot only really important which it is. But it's the only important thing or that that went science needs should be dead. Think science and scientists need to always remember that they are part of their part of their societies. They can't live without their society there. The society provides the oxygen and the sugar and glucose that science needs to thrive it provides funding provides status. It provides jobs and so just to say this is scientifically a good thing. We're gonna go ahead do. It isn't enough. You need you need to say you need to look at your society say is society. Gotta think this is great. Are they going to think it's controversial if they think it's controversial should we open a discussion. Should we get some engagement. And i think we should. I think i've actually had conversations with. Scientists is the first amendment of the constitution guarantees right to research. Well now it doesn't and even if it did. Scientists and science need to be responsive to inside their cultures. They can't help it in a sense in after culture. Says you do this to go to jail. You probably shouldn't do that Maybe move someplace else. This is not an altogether an answer. That altogether happy with a south dakota makes human embryonic stencil research crime. The monkey human embryo. I talked about earlier is would be illegal in would be a crime in arizona or louisiana. I do. I think those states made bad decisions. There yeah i do. But part of democracy is the people acting through their government. Have a right to do things that i disagree with and have a right to do things. That science disagrees with and science should respond to that not by ignoring society but by trying to communicate with it trying to gauge it. Trying to understand what's what it doesn't want but also trying to explain why they're doing. Thanks this has been as fascinating and digging into areas. That i didn't expect as i felt it would be our time is running out but we always end every show with seven quick questions that invite seven quick answers. Are you game I can't guaranteed a quick. But i'll try their roughly do communication. What do you wish you really understood. People let you business isn't well and and one that it's kind of all our business. I mean people understanding other people's kind of essential survival skill for most of us. Ed we know people who are very good at it and it's a problem It was kind of a flip answer. But actually i think that's right. What motivates is how we can how can find our better selves. And the person who's better i would both like a fine is my up. How do you tell someone that. They have their facts. Wrong carefully. non confrontationally so the two words start every answer to every question. Are it depends. It depends on how you read the person and how they're attached to it. If it's a fact they really really believe that. Then you have to be very careful about it because if you confront them directly. It's likely just to create a defensive wall if it's something that they think they remember from the internet but they're not sure it's easier to correct that but i think so antibac- sers for example I think they are largely wrong and they are largely at and they are. They can be dangerous to other people as well as to themselves but many of them believe very deeply so in conversations and try to figure out what it is that bothers them and give them some reasons to think that maybe it's what they think about. Vaccines is an actually. What's really going on or what's really happened. But i do think there's a big danger. I scientists unfortunately sometimes fall into. This is to say no. You're wrong science. Proves your rock. Which i don't think changes are any minds next question. What's the strangest question. Anyone is ever asked you well. That may be a contender. Ever asked me that question Question brass me will have been asked about whether putting human brain cells into a into a mouse would mean the mouse would be a human consciousness in the human brain. Maybe that's not so strange but this is not that tidy little mouse brain would actually be able to carry out a conversation with the downsides communicators such as yourself i too weird things of like cairo said gee netted and so on and so sometimes people will ask me kind of factual things. That just seem strange. How do you stop a compulsive talker. Walkaway just want you know will. Sometimes yes allergy. You're really cutting hosted abode air. Because a lot of people who would say you're talking to a compulsive talker right now. Do you find many people walking from time to get into bertel relations. You try you just try to. I try to summarize where. I think they're going This is so what you're really saying. Is this right. And then if i can get them to say right sometimes over sometimes they'll notice you note if you're actually there. Let's say you're at a dinner table when that becomes more common again and you're sitting next to someone you don't know how do you. How do you strike up a real genuine conversation. Ask people about themselves. And so so what do you work out. Or where'd you come from. Where did you grow up know. It's funny one of the things. We academic stu interview job. Applicants says nobody wants to be a law. Professor at stanford and i'll end up pocketing. I once Mike would like five or six of us in the room talking. This person and it wasn't maybe the most plausible candidate but i was asking so which grew up and i later saw notes that one of my colleagues had written the conversation was so bad. That grill even ask. Where did the person grow up in that. If you're not asking about their work and their thoughts you're doing something wrong. But i'd like to have a sense of of where people are from what they like what they're interested in it may not be directly in. Oh so what do you think about. These new amendments to the clean air act up but it gives me a feel for them and you know. Generally most people think they're pretty interesting so if you ask people about themselves they will tell you and sort of. I tapped the cab drivers. I talk to to lift. Drivers uber drivers and put my goal is always connect. Find some connection. Find something that. They're experienced or interested in that that i can that we can have conversation about connect great. What give you confidence. Probably by ignorance at the depth of my limitations Net i think to occasionally lack confidence is almost the definition of being yuban. Anyone who is not from time to time in secure is probably not in some deep sets human. But i do think age experience help a lot and having been through a lot of things and got through a lot of things gives me some more confidence that peace and chance. I could muddle through even this. I may even be able to survive in interview with this August at wonderful figuring out all that. Don't don't try to get out of with a compliment momentarily. Let's question what book changed your life that that's good Accurate because i have an answer. I don't remember exactly which one was a little kid. I found in our house. Some of the older versions. Not the original additions. Unfortunately but but like nineteen twenties versions of the wizard of books. Most people only think of the first book the wonderful wizard of oz but l. Frank ball wrote fourteen hours books and then somebody else wrote another twenty odd folks like forty oz books written over forty years and these had great at dry to s. Maybe six or seven. I was early and being able to read. And i fell in love with them. Which then led me into an interest in science fiction and fantasy which sparked my interest in science so reading. Whichever that first book i read was I think may well have changed my life by giving me interested in that. Kind of speculative fantastic fiction ultimately A little later was the juvenile. Was the adult books written by science fiction author. Robert island had a huge effect on me. Growing up. have space will travel citizen of the galaxy. I reread them within the last decade and the ad they still speak to me money ours but for the books i probably would have got lyles and but for that i wouldn't be talking to you now. Well i've been. I've enjoyed our talk so much. Thank you thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I tend to say this often but in this case this is deeply sincere. It was a great pleasure tonight. Thank you thank you hang. This has been clear and vivid. At least i hope so. My thanks to the sponsor this podcast and to all of you who support our show on patriotic you keep clear and vivid up and running and after we pay expenses whatever's left over goes to the oldest santa for communicating science at stony brook university. So your support is contributing to the better. Communication of science were very grateful angrily is professor of law at the stanford university law school. Where he's also director of the center for law and the biosciences. The book we discussed in our conversation is crisper. People the science and ethics of editing humans. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham shed with help from our associate producer. Jeanne shaheen are sound engineer is eric. Wong and our publicist. Is sarah hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple podcasts. Stitcher or wherever you like to listen next series of conversations. I talk with bob lefkowitz. He won the nobel prize for figuring out how receptors on the surface of ourselves can be targeted by drugs. But he got his start as a researcher as a member of an extraordinary group of young physicians who worked at the national institutes of health as a means of fulfilling their draft obligations during the vietnam war in-app class four of us went onto on the nobel prize and one who didn't was tony faucher. He was another colleague. We all knew each other then. And when i look back on it who would have ever dreamed of such thing so the question is how did that happen. Bob left a witch. And how a group of young doctors transformed modern medicine. Meanwhile on our other podcast science clear and vivid. I talk with katharina vernero. She grew up in italy but her passion for learning the answers to some of the most fundamental questions about the universe took her to chicago where she was a phd student at the fermi national laboratory in keighley got into particle physics when i saw one of the experiment For the first time that was trying to analyze the collegians of declaration in chicago and that's a complex objects and millions of cables getting out of and a lot of scientists cooperating on the war on the clock in order to understand the results of those experiments in i just wanted to be part of it. it's an amazing field where everybody can contribute in answering the question that emperors very hungry for having an answer kutcher dina vignerie next time on science clear and vivid for more details about clear and vivid into sign up for my newsletter. Please visit alan. Alda dot com and you can also find us on facebook and instagram at clear and vivid. And i'm on twitter. Hat alan alda. Thanks for listening bye bye.

china hiv hank greely stanford alan olga jen quay dr hood Hiv kills Hank george church south china facebook national government john kwee northern europe salk institute Freud premier theus sickle cell disease Doc
Michio Kaku: Seeking the Mind of God

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

42:44 min | 2 months ago

Michio Kaku: Seeking the Mind of God

"Isn't it nice to have something that's fun to eat and good for you at the same time. Cheerios or one hundred percent whole grain oats in shape. We've come to associate with funds since we were kids and now that we're grown up. We can appreciate what they can do to help. Keep us healthy. Learn more about a heart healthy lifestyle. Cheerios dot com and find. Honey nut cheerios. Wherever you shop for syria. I'm alan alda. And this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. The immediate practical implication of the theory of everything is nothing. It's not gonna affect you and me. I'll be very blood red however it'll some of the deepest philosophical religious questions of all time. Was there a beginning What happened before the beginning before genesis. He could answer these questions once. And for all whether there are other universes whether there are gateways to these other universes and then of course. I often get the question if there are other universes than is elvis presley still alive in another parallel universe and the answer is yes he could very well still be alive not an argument adverse but in another parallel universe he can still be belting out those hits hit after hit. That's michio kaku. Who has taken up the challenge that frustrated even albert einstein the challenge to find a theory of everything or is he puts it in his new book with his characteristic flair for capturing our attention to discover the god equation. Michio kaku was a major proponent of string theory the idea that all of matters made up of tiny vibrating rubber like strings and he believes the field is on track to reveal as he puts it the mind of god. This is so great to be talking with you today because you are so fantastic has a communicator. Your books are so so readable that i find myself going back over sentences just to see how you did it. Thank you did you. Did you find you had this talent or did you work on it studiously. Well you know I go back to what. Einstein one said that unless a theory can be explained to a child. The theory is probably useless. Meaning that every theory has a principal a picture a simple capitalisation that even children can understand so i try to strive for that i started to strive for being able to explain something such that. A child should be able to understand the basic picture because physics is based on pictures. Newton had ball's going around other malls. Einstein had lightning bolts and trains and clocks very pictorial. So i tried to in my writing us. That einstein phrase that it has to be explained to a child or you're barking up the right tree with me. Glad you i'm glad you following that principle Your latest book. The god equation talks about the theory of everything right then. Einstein spent most of the last part of his life. thirty years to figure out Yeah and and was apparently unsuccessful. What interests me about that is what will change if we do get a theory of everything of we figure out something that combines all the forces known to us in one equation what what's going to happen. What it'd be different wouldn't matter. Well when newton worked out mechanics analogue gravity that laid the foundation for the industrial revolution. Locomotives steam engines mills factories. All of them based on newtonian mechanics and then maxwell and ferte worked out electricity and magnetism and that gave us the electric age dynamos generators television. And then when i signed gave us equals. Mc squared that unified matter and energy and that unlocked the secret of the stars. You know why. This sunshine's however i'll be very blunt about this we're not talking about universes we're not talking about locomotives and engines and television anymore. We're talking about the universe itself so the immediate practical implication of the theory of everything is nothing is not gonna affect you very well. It's been nice talking with you. However it'll answer some of the deepest philosophical religious questions of all time was there a beginning What happened before the beginning before genesis or a black hole. Is there a white hole. That's on the other side of a black hole or are there other universes are there. Gateways are there. Einstein rosen bridges connecting our university. Another universe none of these questions can be answered using the old einsteinian theory. But you see that's where string theory comes in which is of course the subject of the book. It could answer these questions once and for all whether there are other universes whether there are gateways to these other universes and then of course. I often get the question if there are other universes than is elvis presley still alive in another parallel universe and the answer is yes he could very will still be alive night in our universe but in another parallel universe he could still be building out those hits hit after hit it another universe show. Let's talk about this theory that you've dedicated your life to in to a great extent. String theory the idea. And do i have this right in a nutshell that the tiniest things are not adams or particles even tinier than that our little things string like things that vibrate and when they vibrate at a certain frequency you get a proton at another frequency. You get an electron and so on that. Close my guide. You got it right. If i had a super microscope and could peer into an electron it would not be a dot. It would be a rubber band and when you twain either abandoned vibrates at a different frequency and it turns into a neutrino. You try it again. It vibrate the over ban turns into a cork. And so how many frequencies says orban have an infinite number of frequencies depending upon how you vibrated and why does it vibrate. At a certain frequency of the i can hold down a violin string at a certain point and shorten the string and make it vibrate by plucking it or drawing a bow across it. Who draws the bow. What draws the bow across celestial superstring or string of any kind. Well people ask the question What is a string made of anyway. You cannot answer that question because it is the thing out of which everything else is made of the closest you could come is a say there's a condensation of energy it is basically pure energy condensed into a string and it has energy energy means that it vibrates so. Where does the vibration come from. It comes from the fact that it is energy personified. It is the concentration of energy. It is that out of which everything else is made. And as pythagoras noticed they are an infinite number of vibe rations you can make on these vibrating strings and each vibration is a note a b. flat c. sharp and they are arranged in octaves. So we are the lowest octave of the string everything around us is music of the lowest octave but there are higher vibrations of the strings. We think that dark matter. For example which holes the galaxy together and invisible substance which makes up. Most of the matter of the universe is nothing but a higher vibration a higher vibration of the string and just two weeks ago two weeks ago. Big news from fermilab outside chicago. They found that maybe there could be a new particle out there. A new force a fifth force that they've detected with the with the fermilab detectors and that could be again another vibration of the strings and physics is therefore the harmonies the harmonies. You right on this over band. Chemistry is the melodies. You can play when these rubber bands bump into each other. The universe is a symphony of these strings. And then the mind of god that albert einstein spent thirty years of his life writing about the mind of god whitby cosmic music cosmic music resonating through hyperspace. That would be the mind of god so in other words by taggers two thousand years ago headed right two thousand years ago. The great geometry. Biogas said that music newseek is the paradigm rich enough to explain the vast variety of forms that we see around us. What else is rich enough to do that. Music he said but that theory never went anywhere. The roman empire fell apart and for a thousand years. We were thrown into darkness superstition and magic. But now we're reviving the all pythagorean idea that matt that music is rich enough to explain the diversity the rich diversity of matter that we see around us. But it's the music of subatomic particles so my questions about. This may not be answerable because the theory may not have delve into this yet but when you say it. The strings are like rubber bands. That mean they're always circular or do they stretch out some great lengths. Sometimes sometimes they break and in which case you can have strings connecting other other strings They have tremendous gyrations then. We're still trying to catalog. All the different possibilities and also a strings can connect with membranes. this is new The fact that membranes like a beach ball or an apple or sphere are also solutions of this equation. So meaning that we have a theory of strings and membranes and they've vibrate end eleven dimensions so these are not ordinary membranes. And our universe. Our universe could very well be a membrane. A three-dimensional membranes could be the most accurate description of our universe. So einstein gave us a picture that our universe is a bubble of some sort or a membrane. it's expanding we live on the skin of the bubble. And that's called the big bang theory string theory says there are other universes out there and when these universes collide that could be. The big bang are when they split in half. That could be the big bang. So we have a bubble bath of universes or membranes and they float they flow in a much larger arena. Children assigns museum. Say mommy daddy. If the universe is expanding what is it expanding into well. If our universe is a three dimensional membrane is expanding in a higher dimension up to eleven dimensions and so we think that the multi verse is a bubble bath in eleven inventions and that universities are being born even as we speak even as we started this conversation universes have been born. Big banks have taken place far far away. Fortunately far away. We don't want to be close. Well you've already got me stupefied. There's something in your book that puzzles me. As a matter of fact for day. I would go to sleep trying to understand trying to get a picture of curved space. That's ninety and finally. Finally i i. I realized i hadn't included time space time. And right around that point. I just became unconscious and i was able to go to sleep. Well i like to put it this way. Shakespeare shakespeare one said that Everything is a stage we are actors and actresses making entrances and exits. That's the newtonian idea. The newtonian idea is spaces. Flat unmoving uncurbed and we are actors basically on the stage of life. That's anatolian shakespearean way to look at things. The einsteinian way is that the floor. The floor of the stage is warped. And when you walk in a straight line you are pushed to the left pushed to the right because the floor curved so you might say there's a force a forest pushing you to the left pushing it to the right but there's no force at all. The floor is warped. That's why you have this force of gravity or another way is taking sheet a paper in crumple it and put some ants on when ants move on a cripple sheet of paper the ants would say there's a forest is a forest pushing me the left pushing me to the right but we know there's no force at all it's just a crumpled sheet of paper and so einstein set a ha that's what gravity is. Gravity is nothing but the effect of space and time being warped so the stage of life. The stage of life is warped and you cannot move in a straight line so that leads to the sentence from your book that gave me. No end of of consternation which is gravity does not po space pushes so if gravity is not there. What's making space curve. Well why does it push. Well why am. I sitting in the chair. Normally you'd say that gravity is pulling me down into the chair. And that's why i'm saying in this year right now but there's a second way to look at it. You can also assume that the space around me is curved and pushing me to push me into the chair so in that sense. Gravity does not pull because there's no such thing as gravitational pull this an illusion spaces curve and space could push me into the chair. So that's why you're sitting at share right now because the space around you is warped by the earth gravitational field and it's pushing you into the share. That's the part. We just said the part that. I don't get and i'm hoping if i get it. Multitude of people listening. We'll get it to if space only curves in the presence of some mass that we considered to be pulling us down. It sounds like it's pulling space down to its hits making space curved so that the guilty person and all of this is not the curvature of space it's what's making space curve which is the mass which is what we call pulling his down to earth and you. Can you unbend my mind on that. Well you got it right matter like your body okay is causing a distortion of the space around you. The earth being much bigger is causing the distortion of space around you in a much bigger way. So the origin of this curvature is mass but once it creates the curvature it then causes things to warp and so why does the earth go around the sun i the son warps the space around it around the earth. The earth then moves in this curve space due to the sun's gravity. So where did it come from. It came from the sun. The sun warps the space around the earth. And what happens to the earth. He goes in a circle. So why does it go in circle because it's being pushed by the bent space created by the sun. So that's how it works so it sounds like you're saying the mass of earth he's round already because the center of it is pulling it warped space around pushing the earth into a globe right and that curve space is also pushing me down onto the earth. I think you got it. that's it. The earth is warping the space around. You and that warps space in turn is causing you to be pushed into your chair. And that's what you're not flung out a thousand miles per hour which is velocity of us going around. The earth were not flung into outer space because the space around us created by. The earth is pushing us toward the earth. While it may be. You've made it possible for me to sleep tonight. I think you got it. No i think when we come back from our break michio kaku explores the idea that we exist in our universe only through an incredibly lucky break and he wonders about the chances of their being others in the universe who were equally lucky as well as whether our luck will hold. Don't forget if you enjoy listening to the fascinating guests. We have on clear and vivid. You can help. Keep the flame alive by becoming a patron of the show. Clear and vivid and the oldest center for communicating. Science are both nonprofit and your patronage of clear and vivid. Help support them. Both he can become a patron at any level and get early access to special videos at the highest level. You can get fun in sometimes weird benefits like my recording of your personalized voicemail. Message either with courteous dignity over the rambunctious among you a message with a certain amount of attitude. Take a look at patriotair dot com slash clear and vivid patriotic dot com slash clear and vivid. And thank you seems to me if you are what you eat then it kind of matters where what you eat comes from right. The wild alaskan company gets it seafood from alaska and the pacific northwest. And it gets it wild. It's never farmed or modified and contains no antibiotics wild alaskan company delivered this high quality sustainably sourced wild-caught seafood. Right to your door. He can choose from salmon whitefish or a combination and every month you can explore different specials. One hundred percents satisfaction guaranteed or your money back catching nutrition from nature with wild alaskan company. And just in case. They didn't mention it before. This fish is wild. And right now you can get fifteen dollars off your first box of premium seafood when visit wild alaskan company dot com slash older. That's wild alaskan company dot com slash older for fifteen dollars off your first box. Wild alaskan company dot com slash older. Make sure to use our url to let them know that we sent you. This is clear and vivid and now back to my conversation with michio kaku when you were talking about the effect of these discoveries on our lives every big revolution in understanding nature seems to have given us a benefit a change in their lives but it also at the same time as given us a challenge in every in every instance the industrial revolution. We're only discovering a couple of hundred years later is changing the climate of our planet. And unless we do something about that it will be severely damaging to our lives. I of the obvious. Threat of nuclear warfare is challenges. Well so my question is do you believe. Do you believe that science has a responsibility to think about the possible negative effects every time. A new discoveries made the way for instance. Jennifer dowden has cautioned everybody against misuse of crisper. Gene editing tool what. What's your feeling about that. Well is he. Science is a sword is a double edged sword. One side of the sort can cut against ignorance poverty disease in create wealth of society. The other side of the sword can cut against people. The key question is who wields the sword and for what purpose so this is where democracy comes in but damarcus you have to be educated. They can't simply wheel. The sword of science without understanding why is potentially dangerous or why is potentially great in terms of unleashing prosperity onto society. And so i think you're right. Everyone has to take take into account the fact that there could be a drawback to some of these technologies. Let me explain. When i was in high school. I was in the national science fair. And i earned the attention of edward teller. Edward teller was the father of the hydrogen bomb and he took me under his wing and he wanted to design haider's warheads well. I was offered a job designing hydrogen warhead. But i said no. I don't wanna design. How your warheads. We'd rather work on up to even bigger the big bane and even bigger explosion. I remember one thing. He told me he said that. Nuclear power plants are very very powerful. Very good but they are potentially dangerous so they do not belong on the surface of the earth. They belong underground in other words. If you have a chernobyl or fukushima or a three mile island you simply put the manhole cover on it and walk away because everything is underground and so it impressed to me. The fact that technologies are powerful but they have to be used correctly or else. You'll have tache affi. We have to have democratic control over these technologies or else handful of people will make decisions without realizing the social consequences of these decisions and another important reason. Why your ability to communicate so that people can understand what their options are is extremely important. Well thank you. I think we have to speak the language of the masses. Let me give you another example. Of sometimes way we have to speak the language of people. It one thousand nine hundred eighty s. We had the supercollider. Even bigger than the large on collider outside geneva switzerland but it was had cost overruns and on the last day of hearings. con- congressman asked the physicist quote. Will we find god with your machine. If so i will vote for. It will help the poor physicists. Didn't know what to say. So he said we're gonna find the higgs on well. All the jaw hit the floor of the united states congress. Billions of dollars in other guys article. The vote was taken. The supercollider was cancelled and american physics. At the high level was set back two generations since then we physicists. That has the question. How should we have answer that question. Will we find god with your machine. I would have said this. I would have said god by whatever signs symbols you ascribe to the deity. This machine supercollider will take as close as humanly possible to his greatest creation genesis. This is genesis machine. It will recreate on a small scale. The greatest event in the history of the universe is birth. unfortunately we said higgs bows on and american. Physics was said back. Two generations the moral of the story is we have to speak the language of people. We have to understand where people are because they pay our taxes. I mean we pay the taxpayer that funds our work in the old days we physicists. Were go to congress and say one word russia and then congress would come back to us and say two words how much those days are gone. We can't rely on the cold war to fund our machines anymore so we have to learn to speak the language of people. This one other notion that. I'm curious about i've read about it for a few years. Now the anthropic principle. There's an anthropic principle a weekend tropic. Principal would you. Would you tell me about how you feel about either version of it. What it is to you. Well when i was in second grade. My second grade teacher says something that i'll never forget. She said that. God so loved the earth that he put the earth just right from the sun not too close oil not too far the oceans a freeze now i said to myself. Oh my god. That's right. this was the first time i had ever heard a scientific principle. Explain to me and so her conclusion of course was that god exists however now we have this covered four thousand planets going around other star systems and most of them are too close. Most of them are too far. So we on the earth one. The crap shoot in other words. It's a gamble. So the anthropic principle. There's two ways you can look at it. Either that is just luck. Sheer luck that. We're here just right from the sun is a crap shoot or perhaps there's a design. Perhaps there's a meaning for it that we are just right from the sun and so the the strong version of the anthropic principle says that there was a designer. It was meant to be this way. God designed it so there are just write a weaker form simply says that well. We're here because of a series of accidents. Good thing that they were these accidents toys. We wouldn't be here to begin with and it shows that the universe is really kind toward intelligent life. Intelligent life is so hard to create. It's actually quite difficult to create conscious life on a planet of the four thousand planets that we've looked so far not a single one is exactly earth like they're super earths but nine are exactly like the earth and so we think in the galaxy perhaps in the galaxy that only a handful of twins a handful of tweeden's that have class life consciousness on those planets so the a weaker version of the anthropic principle simply says that consciousness is rare but not unique that there probably are other aliens out there that are conscious and are fully recognizing the fact that the antarctic principal has a weakness. But it's rare. We are special in that sense so the we the weakest version of the anthropic principle simply says we're special were not ordinary most planets are dead. Most finest have no life on them. We see no evidence of so far in any of the planets they have conditions where they are have oceans that are too close or too far so of the week version of the anthropic principle simply says we are special now. The opposite point of view is the copernican principle the copernican principle says. We're not special at all period. That is nothing but a cosmic crap. Shoot that's all it is. I tend to lean more toward the weekend throwback principle which simply says we are special. We're not necessarily unique but we are special. We're pretty special at least two us. Maybe maybe Of animals on this planet and another planet who might not think were that special but something that i wonder about with regard to our specialness is that i've been told by scientists that the average life of species is about two million years the question that i often pose at dinner tables and i'm so curious to hear your answers as species. Do we have any hope of being average. Will we be here. Two million years after we began as us. Well you know the russian physicists. nikolai kardashian. i've tried to categorize higher civilizations billions of years into the future a type one civilization is planetary. They control the weather phenomenon. Volcanoes earthquakes could influence their planetary in terms of their energy tie to would be stellar. They consume the entire energy output of the sun and they use that for their machines. Sort of like star trek would be a type two civilization then this type three which has galactic. They roamed the galactic space lanes. They control black holes sort of like star wars now on this scale what are we do. We control the weather. The we control the sun. The we control the galaxy. No we are tight zero. We don't even rate on the scale. We're just type so we get an energy dead plans for god's sake oil and coal. We can't control hardly anything and so then the question is well. How close are we to becoming type one. We're about one hundred years from being type one. Where few thousand years of becoming type two. And maybe a million years for becoming type three. And so looking on this cosmic scale we if we and if we can whether these climactic problems and become type two. We become immortal. Type to civilization is immortal. They can deflect asteroids they control the weather like global war making be controlled They can leave the planet if their son's turned supernova they can leave the planet and go into outer space but we are type zero. We are definitely vulnerable. We are vulnerable because Three things Global warming nuclear proliferation and a global pandemic three ways in which we can do ourselves in Because we're vulnerable as type zero but if we could make it if we can make it a type one and type two that we become immortal. Leads into our seven quick questions with which we end our shows. What do you wish you really understood. I really wish. I understood the creation of the universe Because that is where all the forces of the universe originated from. And that's what we come from. So i'd like to understand why we're here to begin with. Why is there something versus nothing. Second question how do you tell someone. They have their facts wrong. Well i tried to find commonality. I try to understand where they're coming from Because they have a reasoning process in their mind. They think they're right in their mind. They have a process by which they can justify it. So the first thing is i. Try to get into their head. I tried to find out. What is clicking line in their head. Because they're coming out with a different premise. A different foundation. What are the foundational questions that they believe in which differ from my own if i'm going to get into for example. An argument with them. What's the strangest question anyone has ever asked you well. The question is when people ask me. They've ever been kidnapped by a flying saucer and they believe that the aliens are here already and my my advice to them is that if they've ever been kidnapped by a fine saucer for god's sake steal something i don't this daily ship daily and hammer steal something. There's no law against stealing from an extraterrestrial civilization. You're not going go to jail. And he'll end the debate right then and there alien chip would end the whole debate about flying saucers right there. So that's for those people who say they've been kidnapping billions of them. Find next time kidnap steal. Something next how do you stop a compulsive talker. Well i would. I would first of all agree with them and say yes. Oh i understand. Oh is that right. Oh i didn't know 'cause then they realize that you know. I'm at least listening to them. And that i think that there's wisdom in what they have to say and eventually they'll get tired of listening to their voice. I hope that's the whole. Let's say you're able to go to a dinner conversation. The dinner at someone's house before too long and the person sitting next to someone you don't know how do you start up a genuine conversation. Well i used to say that. I'm a physicist but that stopped the conversation right then this so i started a conversation by asking them what they like asking them their background and letting them amplify comments then i have a hook hook on which can then engage with a conversation with them but the main thing is to get them to start talking. That's the main thing. What gives you confidence. Well i'm an optimist. And i like to quote from general. Dwight eisenhower. who wins said the pessimist never win wars wars are always by optimists. Not because they're always right but because unless you are enough to visit you don't have a chance. You don't have a chance and richard fireman was once was as how could you make great discoveries and of course you have to be optimistic about these things but you know you have to dig a lot but you have to have taste. You have to know where to dig okay and so Anyway for all those reasons for all those reasons that's really. I think i'm optimistic about things. You dig often enough and you find something and also optimist live longer than pessimists that's been shown in medical study after medical studies pessimists don't live as long as optimists google now that what the last question is what book changed your life well. It wasn't a book. It was the absence of a book that changed my life. That is when i was eight years old A great scientists had just died and they had a picture of his desk. That's all dissipates desk with an open book and the caption said the greatest signs. Our time could not finish that book. Well i was. I was mesmerized. I had to know what was in that book so into the library i found out the man's name was albert. Einstein and that book was the unified field theory. The unfinished theory and i said to myself. Wow that's for me because that book will quote allow us to read the mind of god. These are einstein's words. Read the mind of god. And i thought what could be more nobler than to be part just a part of this grand search to complete a theory of everything so this was the absence of a book that steered being the direction. Now of course. I can read that book and i know the dead ends that he was looking at and today we can correct those dead ends and you're now in a position to seek the way you can finish the book that he left unfinished. That's the goal. And i tell my students if you ever figure it out Be sure to tell me first. Prize money. I've had a wonderful time talking with you today. Thank you so much for joining me. My pleasure this has been clear and vivid. at least i hope so. My thanks to the sponsor of this podcast and to all of you who support our show on patriot. You keep clear and vivid up and running and after we pay. Expenses whatever's leftover goes to the all the santa for communicating science at stony brook university. So your support is contributing to the better communication of science. Were very grateful. Michio kaku was professor of physics at the city college of new york a prolific popularizer of science. His most recent books include the future of the mind and the future of humanity as well as the book we discussed in this conversation. God equation the quest for theory of everything is very active. Website is m kaku dot org. that's m. k. a. k. u. dot org. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham shed with help from our associate producer. Jean schwer are sound engineers. Erica and our publicist sarah hill. You subscribe to our podcast for free at apple podcasts. Stitcher wherever you like to listen. Next our series of conversations. I talk with jacqueline nova. She's the founder and ceo vacuuming a nonprofit that sprang from her witnessing firsthand. If there's a way to help people in need beyond just giving the money. I think if there's one thing i've learned in thirty five years is the opposite of poverty isn't wealth opposite of poverty is dignity if i just give you a little bit of income but no capability to contribute to interact What have i really done. Give you a piece of dignity and money matters but what we really yearn for. Human beings is choice opportunity the ability to make our own decisions. The capability to participate interact contribute and feel valued by society. And that's what's missing right now For too many people. Jacqueline nova gret next time when clear and vivid meanwhile on our other podcast science clear and vivid. I talk with lucy aplin. She studies how innovations spread within societies not human societies but societies birds in particular how cockatoos in one suburb of sydney australia picked up and spread a novel way of rating trash bins. So the birds named to go right to the rim of the bin and then they need to lift the been at the handle. They usually do this with their foot and then they need to transfer to their mouth and then they sort of shuffled down the side of the been until they get to that point where they can push it over so it opens up and probably because it served physically challenging they also are very good at targeting what been urban sir over ninety percent at the observations of both us and the citizen scientists that we recruited to watch out for the behavior Reported that it was on the red litter bins which in sydney on the general waste bins. So they completely ignored the recycling bins and gersh straight for the bins that they know we'll have food in and through that we were to track its geographic spread from observations in only three of to forty two suburbs by the end of the second year lucy aplin and the clever cockatoos of sydney. Next time when science clear and vivid for more details about clear and vivid. Sign up my newsletter. Please visit alan. Alda dot com and you can also find us on facebook and instagram at clear and vivid. And i'm on twitter at allen old. Thanks for listening bye.

michio kaku Einstein elvis presley ferte albert einstein Einstein rosen Shakespeare shakespeare edward teller alan alda orban Jennifer dowden damarcus national science fair fermilab pythagoras tache affi syria
Words On Water #95: Adam Lovell on Water Utilities in Australia

Words on Water

40:01 min | 2 years ago

Words On Water #95: Adam Lovell on Water Utilities in Australia

"Word on wellness a welcome the words on water a podcast from the water environment federation this is the host travis loop very very excited to be joined by adam level executive director of water services association of australia adam i'm glad we found the time to do this given are wild time differences were working wis indeed it's it's really good to be with trevor rees yeah so it's around but you know eight almost eight thirty in the evening on a thursday here in on east coast of the u s what it was what do you a looking at i'm i'm ten thirty on friday morning sonar a and we've got a we've got a quiet week this week because of easter and yesterday was a anzac day in australia which is a public holiday and that's a commemoration of ola a war if it's but in new zealand soldiers opinion so it's it's a very short week here in australia that is you're you're you're on like a little one day one day left there about how many people opposite works right right right well i i'm really excited to talk to you a lot about kind of the water sector in australia you certainly know a lot about it and we've got some good topics to dive into 'em could you just kinda start by giving me in the listeners a bit of an overview of the of the water sector in australia you know like how many utilities there are facilities there are just kind of what it looks like show show it's it's got a really interesting sector here stralia i think the big difference it you'll see is a between some of the state says well sorry so if you look at west lets out west and us drivers from condor the most interesting that's ten times the size of texas you've got one utility the look softer all of these other motives services across that state now remember that that a lot of that state is as you know there's there's nothing that whole thing is of course they've got a lot of indigenous settlements up there which usually run run on by department of housing jews were run by the government says border sevices so what a corporation run the whole state same without the stretch run the whole the whole a state of south the stralia tasmania is run by single utility so it's only when you get towards east coast more popular side that you get separation of utilities i think the key the key difference that you might find between the strategy and uss utility sees that most of these trying utilities have fully vertically integrated in other words they run catchment all my true to dispose love 'em this type safe disposal of of f one back into the rivers sorry and they also randy sal and recycling in the midst of that so what tends to happened then there's such a so much utilities 'em would would provide every five years that would go to an independent economic regulator 'em to us for the process like in charge of the following five year period and so they can allocate calls a operational and capitol koss right across that value chain anton try be fishing rod across that that each night it's been a challenge because typically that you know that in an deal weld 'em you know you'd be you'd be sort of looking at or you all of you challenges across all of the top three network why sport a recycling drinking water but typically it within utility at least until a decade ago actually topped after long very separate water network and sewage networking treatment sort of thoughts but gradually saying a full integration across a water utility so they other thing to bear in mind for these strain more utilities these is that most of the corporate caused in the nineteen nineties and that would seem to be on a pass a following new u k pop off privatized nations sorry most utilities it by the time of around two thousand was set up fully independent boards 'em and they're only share all of that this the principles they're only share hold up was the site treasure a some sort of state department was is that what's that shareholder in actual facts that heads reports through to corporate regulator just like any other private company would old privately listen company as well so so that that was set a set up an end worked pretty effectively what let's say nothing which is one of the challenges that we have in the strays saying 'em a falling back should be mole state government control government run robbing having that independence 'em as as a what they call state a corporation sergeant in a nutshell utilities eat the state owned or local government owns 'em there's different a ownership models in queensland particularly around brea spend a q queensland and utilities he's he's owned by five councils and in fact in some ways is a little better because a a the council's dark have have a board member necessarily it's a it's a skills baseboard and they don't necessarily an such writes that governments site they've got find more independence insight sydney border which is fully on board the new south wales government so 'em you know that's that's the sort of that's what you sort of looking at in terms of the the makeup of of water utilities in australia i think the key thing is that most of the money they spend you know when the set of spending money every dollar i would spend eighty cents of that is with the product or mole is with the private sector so we said that there's all common common set of common refrain all you know if you're spending money props that that that means you're gonna be privatized privatization an ownership the very different things having the private sector actually help you build build capital requirements an upright your assets as well so a very big private sector in a involvement 'em you know the silver as the v alia's trilogies at the world 'em old old work very closely without utilities hearing the stralia and that's why a defense and everyday all of these utilities propsects up a that is a terrific overview i'm very intrigued by some of those differences they are going back to a how you mentioned di di geographic area that utilities cover you know in the western part of australia in the southern part of australia i guess that's really due to like you said the be sparse population there's just not it's not very densely populated right a i as any other thing a it's quite interesting people wouldn't realize is that the strenuous inside most a country in the world so in other words ninety percent of people leave in a capital city on by the coast sec using indication of the vast cost the vast distances between towns and and a regional areas in in new south wales in queensland and and other places which makes it incredibly hot so so yeah we've got a very very difficult drought on the eastern seaboard of the mind that runs rock clinton signed right through the victoria an there many towns in new south wales that a a really have no water suddenly it's gotta be it's gotta be tanker dean ends you could imagine the costs that's that that comes along with that so there's a big there's a big issue around climate change the big issue that they economic issue the social issues attached a climate change because you would have to think in the future out you know some some towns just may not have the border to be actually i is about a un this is a town yeah i remember a during your summer or winter here in the northern hemisphere seeing a lot of stories especially on social media a just about the soaring ring heat that you guys had an incredible impacts on you know waterways and rivers because of that and i'm sure the water utilities were feeling that distresses well haha well well you know we've we've had some of the millennium drought with an interesting one at and many many listeners near west would have heard about the stories about the millennium drop because it's incredible amount of capital investment went in your every capital city got a day sell plant you know is practically lining up for diesel plant you know they're not shake you know at least two billion dollars each so so every capital city got one those massive investment in water recycling 'em but but the current draft is actually seventy seventy five percent worse it's the worst ever recorded drought the we having a strategy right now oh ends a and says says some of the haji graphs you're look sickly sydney and from melbourne a much worse than what they look like in the millennium trout so 'em yoga's just a just for example in sydney just switch the day sell plant back on 'em ends you know that the planning is going into what's the next guy edge besides or is it more restrictions is that a is that another day south plant is it a a big part of what we use facility you know all of these options needs to be on the title 'em end the sec things happening around the country so there's there's some big huge challenges ahead you know climate change is definitely one of the things i wanna talk to you about i'm glad you brought it up i'm i'm wondering a little bit about a you know here in the uss were in the situation where a political parties in power 'em are skeptical or deny climate change and that that that causes some great challenges across lots of parts of our country but but definitely for water management and so forth and i'm just wondering if it seems like it's a more accepted a by within government in australia is that true and in a if so how does that enable at least action to address address it yeah really interesting where in the midst of a federal government election right now and a the current government has been in all sorts trouble a particularly with electric 'em the broader electric has moved on this tide of the debates around climate change and they're under incredible pressure to do more on climate change and a yeah they're they're often portrayed in the is being donna souls you know the ceiling come out and said you know by twenty thirty all sides that might have fifty percent of college to be electric vehicles cynical say oh well you know a trade posts and can't drive around and electric you that sort of thing you know the sort of a real giving off this impression that that really yeah there's needs change that needs have electric vehicles are yeah but electra just moving on really quickly an end so you saying are really interesting change by state state governments and out doing the wrong thing he's saying water utilities doing the right thing there's no debate about climate change but in order industry is happening when dealing with a m and we and we can deal with that without having a federal government intervention so to speak but i i think 'em everybody the broader the broader community administrators looking for federal government says the fondly types late so it'll be interesting to see whether the current election will will end up having real the guardians the climate change the bites yet but will becoming sunday elections on the mighty i take that that i think that component about that is is is interesting but just lost weight for instance that tained up the victorian more utilities and there's not any more utilities in victoria it's it's a second smallest site but a a quiet quiet set of a compact sort of state the thirteenth lies utilities got together an old really investing in a solo a facility up in the north northeast of this tight end that's a really big the minister is right behind that say that the site at the state level at utility level last night a bite most a nice the water utilities here heading towards com neutrality or or even then energy neutrality a yard valley border public at one of the most incredible facilities where they're not even they're actually falling in food waste not not dissimilar to the east bay not out there on the by but not buying into twice a cookie at all pairing up and putting it back into the great size i pow the sewage treatment plant whatever's leftover that goes back into the great insight that they have a looking to expand that many about utilities looking looking at that those sort of facilities so while we have we have the benefit of density in other than 'em you know of in a use a the problem is that we've still got you know if i think back to the word they use this used in europe circle economy that's that's that's not woods it's used commonly here in australia and i think once we get that fully into unoccupied once we get that is and approach a will be on a bit of what i a publisher podcast recently with a melbourne water chanel lie and over there an inch and she was talking about their push toward you know net zero row and it was just amazing kind of accelerated timetable that they're doing that on 'em within a matter of you know less than ten years to kinda get get up to that but i guess you know where there's a will there's a way really in the there's so much technology out there that that makes us all possible six citing that's exactly right but you know it's so it's so important to share this thing internationally and that's why i had such a good relationship with u s with the usa research talking on sessions because i think some real lading lots u s the wait in line from you know and i think that's you know that seem the importance of international collaboration that you can't you can't you that you'll particular countries the bested everything you're always gonna be out there looking for the best and looking just share and looking at the drive things for oh absolutely 'em well one of the i i wanna talk a little bit more about the challenges that you're yeah utilities face there we we had a kind of a conversation sation a little while ago about this and it was definitely interesting to hear about those challenges and some of the especially similarities but i could could you talk about kind of the biggest challenges facing water utilities in australia beyond the climate change piece yeah show and and it's a good good timing actually cause a yeah we've just been working through this with the with the board and the board association board and we talk a bit about what watts is the bat but just give an the year to year where the full okay outcomes trying to achieve over the next a short medium temporizing he's all about it's all about customer value and i think i've not seen you know i've been involved in the water and she my whole life what we'd call lifestyle you know i've been i've wasted my first job xactly angling motor in cambridge and you're tired and then i came back and what the city water and in particular the research area now come on wall so that the biggest change that i've saying is this absolute a singular focus on customer value in in developing customer disinterested eight customer engagement and delivering the customer value pace and i think in the end you often a set of their there were many industries wouldn't be stopped them this possible why you're a monopoly just do what you have to do do you have pollini engineering services old fond yeah this is all the time and money well i i just i just think i'm glad we've moved past that because in in being able to engage with customers provides tiredly different approach and mindset to said the value that you were trying to create and it's it's a value proposition which is why be on the taps and toilets business and we could talk about that a little bit more of a customer value is is he out on the tape affordability an and i think you know the industry yeah has been in the past being accused of being go fighting as we mentioned in the millennium drought whole lot of capital expenditure behind mining we're with the second largest as the sect of the second largest investor and capitol works 'em but but what we've been able to move beyond that and and so the current drought despite the fact that it's five west some of the millennium outlaws there's been no real plan ends a full be orientation which is which is a good thing but that comes back to affordability comes back to the regulatory settings is well more outcomes based regulation than 'em sort of the point souls regulation so we've had a soda similar thing and if you look at the y sport side of the business you know dp ice in the world and looking for you know so so many so much reduction in surrogate flies for instance and wiping working with them in some respect our regulator calls but washing with and say okay but what see outcome and trying to shape he's a particular waterway you're looking for swimming pool dies most we mobilize for instance of doubling its mobile died or is it protects you new environment h waterways little bit different states instead of thinking about you know you need scott all throughout flies by off which require a five billion dollar investment all i that's a lot of money somebody's gotta pifer that i think just going back to the white industry industry instruction hearing the stralia motion the capitals sitting old with a capital cities a full recovery that's all picks and catholics who cross recovery and that's why in in some respects but not on the front page of the paper because we don't have a handout money were not we don't look for grants chance none of the utility say look for grants but anything on everything is on the phone calls recovery by says sorry sorry is that going back to that that's important about affordability you gotta make sure that you ford plans were affordable customers longtime water supplies and chris is the third a key k outcome that were trying to achieve and i think the key issues sephora ross is around 'em bringing stole more time into the title of what we would call the title of water environments water utilities these little cops a new normal reteach delighted drinking water and mice water and recycling and they sell but they don't look off the storm or not and that's the thing that's been a big issue and so all the all the major growth areas and sydney melvin are expected doubled in size ooh areas and yet when he is but about in areas that receive half of the rain fold and they would on the coast melbourne and sydney yard the cat sort of the central business district so downtown downtown is practically ride on the coast the gross these fifty sixty columbus why wet wet for instance in sydney that's half of the rifle and then then the sydney what they call the hottest city which would get so big able to capture stormwater and use it more effectively friends to create livable communities is a really big issue for us and then potable radios so we've got poboy use up over and pesticides they use a gram motor punishment while they call the groundwater punishment very similar to orange county in effect for the coal lindelof in orange county in developing that that program spots a young hungry useful have to be only agenda going forward and i think a lot of work happening to to really this is all about community engagement along proposition community engagement to get it off that about to be on the radar at least the long term water supply and i think the fourth one is about city shaping and i think this is probably one of the most important industry outcomes toronto what shape this is all about a water utilities country brash contribution liveability an end to the health and wellbeing of its citizens in particular in whatever city that you're in wave just completed a piece of work with frontier economics which is a major 'em well a really fantastic economics and we're trying to put a dollar figure out on the mental health physical health benefits an oven hate merely ration 'em by from better water water management and we've provided we've we think that were onto something here because wait and see but there's a definite benefits every community member by integrating storm ordinate and mortar environment even by rage debilitating what what is now concrete channels and and their legs is still alive and well brought get water officer get that water off the road and get it out of sight as quickly as possible but the contributions deliverability is so important contribution to the health budget is so important and we have shown a by this initial place of work that you could get a net positive value for mental health and that surprised me the most benefits the mental health bye bye you're providing people access to greenspace is incredibly important so said that old guys city of inform and that's why we talk about city shaping about water utilities rolling city shaping just quickly to the most one of the most pleasing things up federation lee is we had a great the ceo of the greatest sydney commission sarah hill and they're in control of the big clients city undescribed anche she talked about memphis recently said you know what i think convinced that we need to go back to a water centric up informed the future because that creates livable that creates livable community create healthy communities and i think the problem that we face in the past is water utilities or some back into the environment hopefully average incredibly important portfolio i'm like get me wrong but you're always second tier all i second tier and i think we need to be part of the healthcare quality not just the safe drinking water overturning safe recreational water but for the wellness health and wellbeing of the communities and now contribution to it we need to be part of that he'll portfolio because then you says tia and then when you get that inform it's created around a quarter century inform not transport centric which were the dominant things i would say out contribution around that is really important contributions descend overdevelopment goals really important public before his shoes yeah well i'm glad to hear that a that individual that's in such an important position they're in sydney gets it about the role of water and as you guys work on that study in that report and kind of have signed further findings on a you know kind of the role of water in in liveability of communities 'em i definitely would love to see that and share that sure it's really interesting judy other things you mentioned i wanna quickly follow up on a storm water so if it wasn't part of the water or water utilities responsibility you know stormwater management and conveyance and so forth who who handled better who constructed even as you know yeah interesting story the day a mostly constructed of course to create work during the depression sonani netease i thought if his group here's a great job scott and get all of the crates between europe and aries let's all concrete law in the works because sort of helped get water off the road and so on and so forth by but it's sort of created this these ugly messages of an end rarely highly clues he's had messes well sorry i'm an intense tippy council run so a lot of local what we would call what you're cold local government runs so 'em say in sydney old melbourne in particular is probably a c plus a different local governments areas all with different roles for what's that different approaches and i think a longtime water utilities a music there wasn't issue around this about 'em almost you know just didn't want to tackle the huge capitol risk is taking on because some of these stormwater channels really badly degraded hats the key issue here is how do you actually there is no pricing structure stormwater management there's no funding structure for it 'em and so you you it's a massive janney take on stormwater but i think most in the face of climate change challenges and the feis liveability challenges now util i'm saying most the value alman biz turning around and saying look there's gotta be a custodian there's gotta be somebody who manages it maybe when they are now in the longtime but somebody needs to take control as a as the waterway many john so to speak so many all of the water in particular area nonsense i get the impression in the future will see utilities taking on a much bigger role 'em in being in being water manages the whole the whole area 'em and that that's got that will be a step change it will be a big change to in the white 'em water is managed a firm a funding source from regular tree point of view from from a crossing point of view well what saying is that many of many of our members particularly who discharge you know test retreated effluent trip to a river of being asked to shave lower and lower levels notch and phosphorus because nobody wants to tackle a few soul sub stormwater stormwater management if you're idled hand that i've got to say utility or a water white men in john do connection allocate so we've got some you know i could say we've got some storm water issues and these particular places we identified them as a point souls for nutrients it's some stead of asking utility today more and more a way she's gonna tackle the problems at a stone who stole mortar point of view which would be filed less costly a an end provide other means of providing the main itchy and liberals look these russians sought so there's some of the challenges that that's a that's a big one for sure a yet yeah the thing you touched on it i wanna follow up on was potable reuse a it's a it's an area that just kind of a it's really important to me the idea of the week and recycle and reclaiming reeves water ends at be idea of direct potable reused not just iago for peace but actually putting it direct to the drinking water distribution system we have a in the usa el paso texas is headed george being kind of the first real big permanent a set up like that a man that's pretty exciting stuff 'em ends so is there any i'm wondering if there's any movement toward that anywhere in australia or the other you know the thing is one of the big challenges here is the regulatory landscape and what's your you know what the laws allow you to do and so i'm just wondering what the if that's a barrier in australia's well listen if you've got regulations prohibit kind of that direct potable radius there's there's probably from a wreck foot tree point of view what probably in a better place because we we have a set of guidelines which actually set at a national level by by health regulators and they're quite they tend to be quite practical about that sort of information so we use a lot of information from the world health organization around sort of studies and things like that so a well you need they issues tend to be more about they a political community acceptance of it and i think the view here is at the community's actually out for it because a number of focus groups set of being held in and number value utilities have been talking to focus groups chick leaving this drought without being prompted they're asking about their out why you're doing it yeah then muniz that's why you're doing this this this makes common sense but very unfortunately fortunately what get very gun shy from some of the decisions are made to end the way that were made in the millennium trout around those couple of potable reuse issues a whole project so much hype which got voted voted against and a publicist cisco gun sean unfortunately they go community as as probably experienced in the usa community actually leads a politician in san jose progressiveness but somehow we tend be lumped back into what the politicians view is and as and then k opinion makers site which rhonda maternal look at it very differently here in trying to work out let's put decision making back in the communities handsets telemarketer to in fact the community might say you know what went on the other day southland well that's fine you don't most this march and he's he energy implications so and so forth but the key thing is the the decision making clearly back in the communities hands and now one of the utilities here in the tri valley board actually undertook citizens jury during its price review last year and actually they both signed off on the citizenry the citizenry came up with a number of recommendations and they are valley board aboard signed off site where committing to that of the next five years that's a huge say handing over the keys the chef each side of shaken by please take care of it you know well yeah have you say that but i think you're community by decision making it's really important i don't think we'll see direct credible here in a hurry i think i think the issue of just getting some pedigrees projects will be a challenge enough said will will will say that but yeah this is another area where where collaborating really closely with colleagues and u s and a loving shabby information on unloading because were all in this together really yeah you're probably aware one of the things that i that we've that's happened in u s and that i've been been involved with is a using beer brewed with every recycled water as a way to get the public an elected officials excited about the potential end actually try to get them over the young factor right a and so if there's ever an opportunity to a to work with utility in a brewery down in australia we'd love to a love to be involved with you on that song oh yeah yeah you you mentioned you're organization i definitely wanna chit had talk kind of about the the role of your organization in australia and how you kind of helped the water sector move forward yeah so so what a subset of a stretch where the take forty four the old water utilities around the country tree and also we've got a couple of members new zealand tight with scott saw what a kid runs all plunge which is a pretty big outfits an wellington mortars well which runs wellington which we locked her husband is the world's coolest subtle capital very very small capital city but not quite a cool little place so look out key role here's that collaboration because members in competition with each other they're very open to sharing and that's the beauty of working working for an organization i should also i'm so proud to be your leading this organization because i'm so proud about members that they're they're so willing to just share an end i think town you know we when we come up but so so now the port of what we do policies is open border policy 'em the current federal government is not really interested in open water 'em you know that's fine that it yeah under the constitution open borders rarely this tape ice rot about about when you argue when you argue a firm a cd point of view and even colder strengthened cities and the and the jd pay the guy provide the mortar is really important at the national level however another story but i think we were all about good policy settings rollback of collaboration role about sharing innovation and re such as much as we possibly can 'em and we have we have board committees we've got a border that ten which is just forty utility ceos plus myself a they're all elected and then we've got bored committees which caught up in three areas and networks like how that nearly any oddity of motorcycle more drinking water quality three to 'em energy efficiency yeah we have a we cover it all and that's the that's that's what we do we we developed musician papers we developed a probably the most exciting project we've done recently is set in a very very proud of memphis doing this twentyfive members handed i've got a their entire general that job so we were able while benchmark old there operational costs across the hundred and fifteen different categories an and not even a plot same melbourne water which doesn't run doesn't have a retail function so so even if you didn't have a hundred and fifteen even if you didn't have double figures nice hundred fifteen categories deacon still benchmark yourself across say fifty or sixty or seventy you know that's a that's been enormously powerful because we don't run off to the media or the press with that that's not it's not about that it's about uplifted industry and so what we do then is is set of mary opt in a team disservices not saying that that's the best in the end the best and they say shall we say the need improvement utilities 'em in certain sectors that we've had many of them 'em set of at a very high level g l y sport costa really high end of actually pulled a knife this perfect the broad attempts to upset facilities which which they probably have about thirty four touchdowns only two of their facilities where they've got really high chemicals calls for some reason and they've been or have you been up to bring it down so that's the power of these 'em all picks benchmarking were were looking now to develop that into a texas so operational costs capital 'em that will take about it you use use worked as a site is about uplifted industry cross that's what we're here for uplifting industry no not necessarily the guy running off and incredible news which just create it going along with that you've talked about collaborating with coordinating west learning from a colleagues like in united states and again when we spoke previously talked a lot about the working relationship with a uk under the water sector there and obviously you have a special connection uk at as we do u s a different connections but could you talk a little bit about that you're relationship yeah the show where we were sort really developing that some you're we have a lot of interaction it's it's it's it's funny isn't it the tyranny of distance you know it's it's really it's twenty twentythree off lot to get from sydney through the london ballots in twins and it's much easier if it gets from sydney the ally that's ficials say there is a bit of tyranny of distance also the i think the key thing that detracts off to working with uk is that they're very similar the deeply integrated nc sunday low cost they also look after the catchment through to sewage treatment and and i do recycling as well but some of the some of the real issues that we're looking at with him is because they're privately orange ron when the fetchy government property sold sold it off 'em that it brings a different focus to what they're doing and affects a lot of the customer century city a lot of the customer value what we've actually borrowed very carefully from from now you you can pops because they've got they've got competition 'em in the non residential section saying that said if gotta be more focused on on customer value that's going to be more focused on on on producing 'em affordable products and services folks were letting a law in that regard world so yeah there's a lot of again life uspa sharing information say about whitewashing issues watch faces simon simon you tight were letting lots a without a uk town of pops around 'em operational professional a benchmarking they learning from ause you know they they've really impressed about the contribution memphis and the leadership that al members have taken on on signing onto this dynamic development calls that something's i tend not to do so 'em ups i'm just noticing on twitter today the water uk which is very similar to also very sunny more or less the same open as i score forty uk have released a document around their social license to operate sunday yeah that that i'm on track at the side the that's actually said to us you know they're looking to add leadership in that in that respect so so we share a lot because with medically integrated like them an edge because of the customer focus 'em in some areas of what you tied do of course they've got that access to europe and the big money floating around in innovation spice so we looked at that as well but we all said look them in the future of regulation of what we walk off walk there the economic regulator is doing so there's a lot to share 'em many members have one one relationships 'em ways between themselves because they're in competition morty ties of different private so also 'em thought were finding were actually exploring wise in fact i hop my board and half the uk board we met recent two weeks ago in london to talk about credit collaboration and this climbing to work home side so we're enjoying it and i think again yeah we also collaborate on a through the water research coalition we'll say collaborate with you they 'em so there's a number of different collaboration pop lies always looking to share what all sudden learn from people doing it better all all the best around around the world i i appreciate us getting have this conversation hopefully it will a find some way to further the collaboration and i think a when we when we had a previous conversation i also mentioned that i hope to a hope to see you down there someday it's i have lived a nazi yeah i have not made it australia but i have a real burning desire to get to get down that way so yeah good stuff thank you so much and a yeah enjoy you're a year weekend thank you so much dr is really really good debate with you were on august

executive director trevor rees water environment federation adam australia five years one day seventy seventy five percent five billion dollar two billion dollars ninety percent fifty percent five year ten years two weeks
Anna Deavere Smith: Shes Been Hundreds of People

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

41:34 min | 4 months ago

Anna Deavere Smith: Shes Been Hundreds of People

"This program is sponsored by the cuddly foundation based in los angeles california. The connelly foundation is dedicated to advancing science for the benefit of humanity. I'm older and this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. I call it portrait's because my intention is not to be an impersonator and it really. Is that whoever i'm portraying. I really really admire something about the way they express themselves and so i think of it as a portrait of their expression. More than anything else. Whether that's their physical expression or their The way they use words that shannon devere smith she has a unique ability to theatrically defined sweeping changes in our culture by presenting us with portraits of individual people and she uncannily brings those people to life without actually impersonating them. This is so great to be talking to you. Because i admire you so much. Get out and you're such a unique person get out. You invented a new form of theater and it became a new form of activism. This is amazing man. You're amazing you're the teacher for all of us. Oh no no no now. We'll have to cut that part now. That's a good thing. The thing that interests me the most is as you portray these characters. We know going in that. These are real people. A writer didn't make them up. And you recreate them for hours in a way that. I don't think anybody else has ever done. Before i've never been aware of it. It's not an impersonation not mimicry. How would you describe what you do when you do that. Well now i call it portrait's because you know i at my intention is not to be an impersonator And it really is that whoever. I'm portraying I really really admire something about the way. They express themselves. And so i think of it as a portrait of their expression more than anything else whether that's their physical expression or their the way. They use words or their vocal impression and i heard you say that. It's i think it's to establish identity. How do you define identity. Yeah well i mean. I'm only really talking about persona. Or what bertolt brecht called guests to us. So i'm talking about how people express themselves the external part of what you see so you find somebody who you find interesting someone you want to do. How do you go about it. Well i ask them if they'll want to talk to me and usually i have a problem or a social problem in mind or a catastrophe that happened that i want them to tell me about and And i talked to them. Usually for about an hour. And i record it used to be just on a tape recorder but ten years ago or fifteen years ago i started using video because cameras got small enough for me to be able to do interviews with video without having to have a crew so now i video record and audio record the interviews and then what do you do. How do how do you. How do you make that person. Live in your voice and your body because it's uncanny which you do. Well i mean. I study them. Studied them is really what it is. I mean for me. A text is almost embody abbadi embodied thing. Safeway that when you get a script. I mean my god like a script like glengarry glen. Ross all of that language that you had to learn. I'm learning this by watching and listening as much as by studying what they said in a written piece of paper. You know that so interesting. The idea that doing glengarry glen ross or pretty much any piece by mamat is a process of looking at words that seemed to be transcribed from an improvisation they start he starts sentences and drops them and starts a new sentence and drops that before you get a drift of what is on the person's mind and very hard for actors to put that together and no one accuracy trying to learn one of his scripts. Have after. you've actually start trying to learn. You wanna kill yourself because you can't figure out what the full starts or about but it seems to me because you're taking it off the person in the moment you have the tone of voice that they go through with these false starts which you don't have from written script. Does that help you. Yeah tell directors who work with me director of course wants to see description the re descript. I say okay. Here's my first crack at the script. But please don't make any decisions until i acted out so the first rehearsal which is always way too long. Act out the people that i'm planning to portray and That's the rehearsal process of me. Actually acting it out you know trying to do to bring in the Persona the vocal mannerisms at the same time that we're you know i'm showing it to the director and then over a series of weeks. I finally honed down the script. But it's really from physical. Is it but i have a question for you. What does that mamat language. How does that indicate a character to you differently than on a move in a movie or television show well because he writes it in a way that an improvisation which sound or in a way that a real person speaking sounds with many repetitions many false starts. I wanted i want. I want to say that you know that kind of thing in my handling of it. I tried to leave myself open to what could be going through the persians mind and then what cuts it short and tries a new approach pretty much based on where the person is in the moment with regard to the other character. Is he trying to sell the other character. Is he trying to apologize or get out of trouble with the other actor. What's what's the thing that's going on. Which is probably causing these breakdowns. And shane tax. You shaking your head. What did i. What nerve did i strike. Well the breaking in syntax is really. What got me to what i do. And that started with this Very interesting teacher. I had a conservatory. Who said that in shakespeare If a character that we know that we think about shakespeare is going that. Not that i that i that you iambic pentameter that at the end she said if a character in the second be says d'anna in other words it goes data data that i that that data means that. Something's going on psychologically and she gave the example in lear at the point that he says never never never never never. It's all tricky. It's all upside down. And i found that to be so fascinating and you know of course in shakespeare you just say the words. You don't do all this you have to keep on the words right may be doing all your inter stuff that you got to speak the speech and so i was so fascinated by that that i wanted to figure out a way to capture real people doing that to capture real people breaking their syntax and a linguist whose name. I don't know she was a stranger. That i met at a party told me that she was going to give me. Give me three questions. That i could ask. People that would guarantee that they would break their syntax. They're established in tax and those three questions were. Have you ever come close to death. Have you ever been accused of something that you didn't do. And do you remember the circumstances of your birth. Do you know the circumstances of your birth. So the first show that i made. I literally walked up the people in the streets of new york city. And said if you give me an hour of your time. I'll invite you to see yourself performed and i had twenty actors. It wasn't just me and if it was like the you know. I'd say i know an actor who looks like you so if it was a lifeguard at the gym or meredith monk. Great composer are i in my own show. Performed a woman who worked at jc penney in their offices called julia and so for everybody. I interviewed we talk about whatever swimming. Lanes at the at the y. On sixty third street meredith monk talked about a bar talk and then somewhere in that interview i would say heavy ever come close to death and those three questions lo and behold there syntax would change all around and so that's how i taught myself to listen for really what i think of as architects architectures in speech that people make their designs that they make in speech now. I don't ask those questions anymore. But that taught me that taught me my process really and i heard you say once that at that moment when they started answering those questions they began to sing in a way that the. When did you mean by that. That i know you don't mean singing a tune but did you mean somehow the music of their language in there the sound of their tone took off exactly almost musically right that People not everybody but you know look. I talked to a lot of people In order to write a play my last play notes from the field. I talked to two hundred and fifty people. I only performed nineteen of them. So i'm really looking for the people who are who do send you know who do have very You know to me very beautiful ways of you. Know the sentence falling apart as you talking about. With ma'am there is one monologue that i've heard you do. That is especially striking to me. And that's called no music and you you title your pieces by something found in the conversation itself right. Yeah and no music. I wondered why it was called no music until almost near the end and it turned out to be two words. That really struck home. So much of the story was told in those two words. So maybe we can listen to it. Now i walk past. Sometimes they try to say things to me. I just did norm. Doing was my name was mine. Namba when i'm comey here for i'll have nothing to say. Y'all sometimes i'll be walking down the street with my earphones on. I think i'd be listening to music. Bobby and everything because that's fun thing. My mother told me she said. Don't be walking down the street just with air phones in your area and your music is loud and cannot hear us around and so sometimes. I'll be walking down the street in my earphones and no music. I just be walking like to be bothered one on walking and that's india sledge from baltimore maryland. A girl is remembering her mother talking to her. She's remembering the boys calling out to her on the street corner. She's going through a memory that so powerful you can hear it. In her voice you can hear what what those experiences were like and how they affected her and those are social interactions. If she read the transcript of that it would sound completely. Different voice would be completely different. Even if she rehearsed it and tried to get natural sounding. The emotion goes away. They did not just emotion the connection to the other person i keep asking scientists if they could make time to do a brain scan when a person is telling his story impromptu and compared compare that to what the scan looks like when they tell the story by reading it to l. out loud someone else when we read whole communicative tones. Full drop out and what we get is just a mere processing of words. That's what i hear when i listen. I want to know what's going on in the brain is the brain not contacting social centers in omen. You right in the middle of that. You're talking to somebody who's communicating to you with emotion. The idea strikes me that you the listener. Who then gives us the person you listen to the person and then you give us the person that seems to be an addition that's very valuable. Your addition seems valuable. Because this is something we get that we wouldn't get if you just played a documentary five minute clip of that person saying the exact same thing although dury some editing. You do my wrong yeah well. I don't change any words but sometimes just to tell the overall story. I may have to take something from you. Know like a minute before and a minute after. Put it together. But i try not to interrupted when i'm talking to them like if i go back and hear the interview and i think why did i ask anything right that 'cause i wanna get that organic through line of where they're headed no matter how long it takes them. You know. it's so interesting. What have you talked to brain scientists. Have you explored even just in your own thinking what is going on that causes the repetitions the elms nerves and things like that. I have not an going to now that you are bringing that up that possibility. I think i will one thing is i do believe many people are trying to make a song and sometimes that stuff in the middle is stuff that they've heard other people say for example like you know how people use that a lot like like an in my last show notes from the field. There's a character who was about thirty years old and he kept saying. You know what i'm saying about. You know what i'm saying. You know what i'm saying. You know what i'm saying. And then i interviewed a kid who's eighteen and he no longer us. You know what i'm saying. I'm saying he said you feel me. It was really hard to learn because not only was like i mean those wrote me crazy right. I'm dedicated to trying to exactly word for word. So when he says he would say you feel me and sometimes say femi- and sometimes they say oh. Wow you feel me. Feel me janet it right so it's interesting to be like ten years later it's not about you know. Do you know what i'm saying. It's kind of deeper. It's like do you feel me. Yeah when we come back from our break and a devere smith talks about how her portraits of people have a purpose above simply being entertaining and we talk about the importance of poison. Don't forget if you enjoy listening to the fascinating guests. We have on clear and vivid. You can help. Keep the flame alive by becoming a patron of the show. Clear and vivid and the oldest center for communicating. Science are both nonprofit and your patronage of clear and vivid. Help support them. Both you can become a patron at level and get early access to special videos at the highest level. You can get fun in sometimes. Weird benefits like my recording of your personalized voicemail. Message either with courteous dignity over the rambunctious among you a message with a certain amount of attitude take a look at patriots dot com slash clear and vivid patriotic dot com slash clear and vivid. And thank you visit clear and vivid and now back to my conversation with anna. Deavere smith tremendously entertaining to see real people transported tours through your voice and body and to examine and explore those characters. But then you do things. Like what i've heard you describe for instance at berkeley. He did have a show and the for the other half of the show. You broke the audience up and adam go into separate rooms and listened to one another in the same way you had listened to your characters and there was an activist of motivation for that. It wasn't just entertainment. What's it like to listen to a stranger. He wanted them to hear one another's life experiences in points of view. I imagine what was what was what was behind that from your point of view. Well i think there's a danger with acting that we give the people in the in the case of what i do. Which is you know trying to deal with social issues. If we give the people in the audience a sense that it's enough to come and watch remember anita hill telling me that after that whole thing That whole thing. Those hearings people would come up on the street and say i watched the whole thing as though they really accomplish something she so you know so with no to the field. I really wanted the audience to think about What their proximity. To this problem of kids getting pushed out of school going to jail was and if they thought they could do anything about it and so at the end of the first act is said had a bass player on stage with may and we just said well. Okay you know more than we know so go out. In groups of twenty we have facilitators and talk about it and they came back and we performed a coda so that was me trying to get to use the theater as a convenient place where communities can talk through some of their issues and see if they can come up with any solutions. What kind of reactions did you get from. The people who went through that some people you know at berkeley the manager of the berkeley repertory theatre. Suzy medoc is a particularly fearless person and she would stand at the door to see how many people left the theatre. Anybody don't want to be in this group therapy. Stop this but people not that many left actually for some people. I think it's like you know. I came to see the antivirus methadone. I do this you know. But for other people it was very meaningful. And then what i didn't anticipate was the stress it put on facilitators to here to be engaged in the conversations night after night that could in itself be of force for change if we could kick. It seems to me if we could get people to listen to one another around not to talk to one. Another so much is to listen to one another. I mean one of the things. I found in teaching communication. Is you have to listen. More when you're communicating than when you're being communicated at because it can't be a communication at it has to be with has to be your communication partner not your communication target. Those things are eager to say in hard to learn to do. Do you have among all of the people you've talked to do. People stand out is there. Is there one or two that you go back to in your mind and think that was amazing. What came out of that person. Oh yeah. I mean there's so many Ann richards Lay or shoes. Great when she great and she was a brilliant communicator. I just identify for people who don't know in richard. Oh yeah so. She was the former governor of texas. The first woman governor of texas and You know maybe. A rare democrat as a governor of texas is a great rock on tour and A real character. She had that wonderful one liner about george bush. Yeah poor poor. Georgie was born with a silver foot and mouth. Yeah that was great joke. Yeah and she told me. I asked her if she was the first woman. I thought she was the first woman. Governor of texas is all now will in the twenties. There was pa ferguson. Who was governor and pau was married to law and pau got impeached and maw became governor. Now she was the one when asked about bilingual education. Who said if the english language is good enough for jesus. Christ is good enough for everybody. I'm so glad to have the chance to hear you do her. that's gresh. She was great so she was great. And i mean era john. Lewis is someone who i was able to interview in two thousand and seventeen. I'm so happy that i have that you know. Given the fact that we've lost him or actually before two thousand fourteen and just so many people so many people and good stories and sad stories. I interviewed a woman in a prison who had sat on her bed while her boyfriend beat her daughter and and she heard her daughter's head hitting the tub over and over again and the little girl died and they pretended that they lost her And eventually of course she got caught. That was a very dark story. That i will never ever forget a stupid question. I know you never know what you just said makes me wonder you've talked to the lightness and the darkness. In people you've entered into our humanness in a unique way. What are you come up with. You know. I don't wanna to give you a polar choice. Are you optimistic or pessimistic. But what have you learned through this process and you might not have learned about what it is to be a person to be a human person. Instead of a welsh terrier. That's an excellent question. One thing how mysterious we are. But your question is also very provocative. Because i asked a brilliant geneticist at stanford why my dog who was a mutt But was part stralia cattle dog and had never been trained. Never been on ranch. Cattle dogs are herders. How she knew how to herd which she did she would hurt people and he said through dna. And i said well. How do we know what to do. As people he said through culture which i thought was very powerful. This idea is that it's through culture that we learn how to be. So when you say that about the terrier i would say you know what makes us different The culture this all around us. I don't mean like opera but from the time we're born your mother's sings to you or you hear the television or your father. Rock shoe are Are even the food that we eat. So human beings are real. Mystery to me Even people. I know well so you sound like you came to the end of that line of thawed so i have a question for you. Have you ever had a near death experience. Yeah sing about it a little. I don't know if i can sing. Haven't even ever talked about it very much. But whole you don't have to if you don't want to. I don't mind. I was driving down the one. Oh one Freeway in california. And it's when i was in acting school and all of a sudden my car just like got hit and was all the way over to the far lane and somehow i ended up on the side of the road alive and the guy who had caused. The accident was like all distraught. And saying i don't know. I'm so sorry i'm so. Sorry he was high and i just the fact that i don't know how i thought over to the other side of the road and that i'm alive was oh boy i just remember saying thank you god for not killing me and i was so young men of so young And is so much. I didn't know that was near death. That especially they've last twenty seconds of what you just said. It really happened to you when you when you said i just remember and then there was this long pause you went there in that moment you you're talking from way back in your head. That wasn't prepared talk. I imagined you listening to the tape of that. What you just said. And listening for the moments where that disruption occurred especially that long pause and you and then. I pictured you doing that long pause in a performance and during that time something happens to the listeners. Very interesting do you fill in with what the thoughts are of the person. Do you think about that or is it all the tone of voice and maybe a gesture. Well i can't presume to know what the thoughts are. But i'm very grateful for a long pauses because of what you just said that it gives the audience that air to think about what the person just said. And maybe and i never know when in a certain performance my own imagination will come up with something that they may have thought that. I'm aware it's my imagination. And it's not what the person thought. What a pause is mean to you When they're written into a script you deal with them tell you i have a very special feeling about pauses. I think it's really important to think of a pause night as not speaking. It's not that you're not speaking in everything goes dead. There's something churning during that pause. There's you can't talk with your voice because you're talking with your brain to yourself you're listening or you're reliving something. Somethings interrupting the speech. And that's got to be alive moment. Deploys can't just be nothingness pauses. aren't that just. We were just talking about that. Pause was where you went back into. That moment was a part of your brain. That was still having that crash. And and when i see an active take a pause by just going dead. I get a little historic. Because i wanted that that. That's that's the most interesting moment. It'll show up on their face. If they find out some clue about what what the characters going through the makes the character poet. So i i hate to say it sort of at the end of our time and i have so many more things. Don't want to talk to you about so. Maybe we can get together some other time but we always end. Our shows would seven quick questions to your mind. They've generally about communication. What do you wish you really understood why people speak different languages why they speak different languages. That's a subject for us to talk about next time. How do you tell someone. They have their facts wrong. That's not right. That's pretty pretty direct. What's the strangest question anyone has ever asked you a woman in prison. After i performed asks me how do you keep it together. Did you ask a wide. What she meant. I think she meant like. How do i manage to pass in public as you know regular person after i got up there and did all this acting like how do you keep it together then always brings up interesting experiences for people. Here's one how do you stop a compulsive talker way. That is so hard man. You have a technique. Well first of all. I wanna know why. They are compulsive talkers. I don't know what to do. Because i tend to be fairly polite about that sort of stuff. What do you do man. I mean that is rough. Think i do different things. It kind of depends on what my relationship is to the person and sometimes i say that's really interesting that you said that you know. Take the other end of the conversation. But i had to say it loud and get in before they change to another. It is compulsive talker. Doesn't just talk about one thing. They have an infinity of subjects to talk about. It's it's a hard thing to do but it is a communication problem. Here's one when we're able to have dinner again in large groups and you sitting next to someone you don't know how do you start up a real authentic conversation with that person. Well i would like to avoid saying what do you do Because i don't think work is the only thing that makes us who we are. I might have a current event that i might ask him about. But i think normally i say what do you do or say. They don't say what do you do. I say what's your work So the you leave them. Free talk to distinguish between that and living. What's your what gives you confidence nothing. I don't have confidence live in doubt. Well of all the people. I wouldn't expect to say that here. The main one. I don't have confidence. How can you not have confidence when you go up and bring other people to to strangers have curiosity. I don't have confidence. Yeah and so i go. There's another conversation okay last question. What book changed your life. A book called dibs in search of self which was about give give in search deb's it's dib assets. The name of a boy dibs in search of self written about a written by a child psychiatrist about a little boy who was having so many problems and she did a kind of therapy with him. Called play therapy. Her name's virginia acts line and she found out he was genius and this was before we talked about autism as a you know common parlance is way back in the sixties so. I can't let this go. Why did that change your life. Because there was so much love between fat boy and that therapist and also eventually with his mother in the therapist. And i think it just led me to understand something about how beautiful it could be to help someone discover themselves and unlock themselves. And i didn't pursue that as a career but it was so moving and so beautiful. And here's maybe was relevant. It was a real story but it was as beautiful as a work of art in a funny way. It sounds to me like that's what you pursued in a completely different way you you find the story that a person has an you. Give us that person telling their story. It's an intimate connection. You have with that person after you leave them. Having spent an hour with them you then spend probably dozens of hours so many hours so many well. This has been a wonderful time with you. I really have enjoyed. I was grateful to you for coming on. I am as the people used to say in baltimore. A black tape is saying. I'm just tickled tickled to be with you me to the with you. Thanks so much in it by fish been cleared at least a hoax though like thanks to the copley foundation for sponsoring both clear and vivid and our sister series science clear and vivid. The copley foundation is dedicated to the advancement of science for the benefit of humanity has an actor and a diverse smith has been featured in television series like the west weighing in nurse. Jackie but it. The creator of works like notes from the field and she's carved out a unique place in american theatre spotlighting which he calls the school to prison pipeline notes from the field was first produced is an award winning play and it led later to an. Hbo documentary and a random house. Book and his website is added to be a smith's dot org. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham shed with help from our associate producer. Jean chamois are sound. Engineer is dan zula. And our publicist. Is sarah hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple podcast stitcher or wherever you like to listen next in our series of conversations. I talk with neil. He studied how animals like us got to have the parts that make us up through evolution six years ago. He and his colleagues made a breakthrough discovery when they spotted. The snout of a flat headed fish poking out of iraq in the canadian arctic. Every time you bend your wrist every time you shake your head you can thank these creatures living in devonian ecosystems. Three hundred and seventy five million years ago and we know that because we can trace the fossil evidence all the way back to that time so this fish tells us a lot about how animals took the first steps on land but more even more importantly and i honestly in my opinion more beautifully is that it connects to us that there's part of our history locked inside of these fish. Neil shubin not only does science but rights clearly and vividly about it to next time on clear and vivid. meanwhile on thursday on our other podcast science clear and vivid. I talk with allison milwaukee. He's figured out a way to grow miniature human brains or more accurately little clumps of human brain cells in a dish so we start with Skin cells from people in by activate the only four genes inside that skin cells. We can turn them back into these embryo. Nick like stem cells. That have the ability to become any tissue of the body in my lab specialize in brain cells. So we add factors to drive yourselves to become brain tissues and then self organizing three dimension forming this brain organoids. Alison milwaukee is using these brain organoids to study the early development of real brains including the brains of our cousins than the andhra tolls next time on science clear vivid for more details about clear and vivid. Sign up for my newsletter. Please visit alan. Alda dot com and you can also find us on facebook and instagram at clear and vivid and i'm on twitter at alan alda. Thanks for listening. Bye bye think.

meredith monk cuddly foundation connelly foundation shannon devere smith glengarry glen mamat jc penney Namba comey bertolt brecht glengarry glen ross devere smith Deavere smith texas berkeley repertory theatre Suzy medoc Safeway pau berkeley pa ferguson
Helen Mirren: Queen of Stage and Screen

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

45:47 min | 4 months ago

Helen Mirren: Queen of Stage and Screen

"I'm alan alda. And this is clear in vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. Much of acting in front of a camera is actually a relationship with the crew that you get to feel that you're a part of a whole day shift many ingredients and your you're one of the radiance but an important ingredient. You're not the only ingredient. And now when i woke on a film set i was always sort of quite know who did what to do. You know a. I felt china barris on a film set and now i can a film session. I feel. I know. Who's who and i know how to relate to people and i didn't know i i just found that was very impersonal process. That's the wonderful. Helen mirren was as honest and searching in conversation as she is in the rich character. She's brought to his performance after performance. She's justice thoughtful and fun as you'd expect her to be. This is so great to be talking with you. I'm i'm really. I through because i admire you so much as a person and as as an actor loved night at all i told you before but i want to tell you again. I just saw the trailer for your acting masterclass. And it's brilliant you. I'm i swear to god you had me choked up. You were so honest about the experience i recognized. You know. I recognize the things you were saying. I tried to make it as just as practical. You know as possible. Just literally practical things and i thought this is all a bit obvious. Felt bit sort of Maybe i'm just. This is a bit too simplistic but then i thought you know what it's what you know. It's what you experience. If the practical experience sometimes is some is valuable rather than the sort of you know. What can i say the method all the you know the the interior journeys will be us actors. That's it was very difficult to talk about without sounding incredibly pretentious. So i also i get the impression everybody has their own method. Funny enough actually. Before i did the master class. I thought well i better learn something about at what did you do. I hope the tobacco to by status levski. And and then i revisited. Peter brookes writings about acting. Because i had worked in peterborough. So i consider him to be one of the great twentieth century busters of theater. I revisited his works. And i kind of love to. You know some of it went. Oh yeah that's right. That worked here. So i guess i do that but really. I thought the practical things in in a funny way a more interesting. I have been very teased by my first opening. Salvo as an actor by say. I just did the most difficult thing there is to do. Is that a which is to walk across the stage and sit down absolutely as yourself without trying to pretend to be anything. That's the first thing that grabbed me by what you were. Were you teased so of people out terribly potential but then it might suggest the truth. It's the minute it's like turnover action or it's kurt not woke up state. You'd need to get power idea paralyzed with some put. Just what am i doing with my hands. And why my feet behaving in such a peculiar way and you know things that a perfectly normal view to everyday life just suddenly become incredibly sort of a difficult. Yeah i find it. Unless you're occupied which something other than yourself the trade hardcover anybody anybody to the fact i to explain something about the need to have an obstacle in a play for the play to come alive to believe that people really doing something i have somebody from the audience walk across the stage with an empty glass and they're so self conscious than i have them walk across the stage with glass so full to the brim. It's molecule away from the top and they can't spill it or everyone in the village will die. What a brilliant exercise that is genius island. I have to say. And i never know my experience. I've never realized you've just taught me something about that. I'm gonna watch your masterclasses. Sodas we're talking and you're going to teach me you didn't as i didn't. You didn't go to acting school. Did you know i didn't. I went to teachers training college. So how did you learn your art practice. I mean i was very lucky. Because in england at an still exists it was called the youth theatre the national youth theatre and they would take kids from all sorts of backgrounds a production in some holidays and it was a great way to people who couldn't afford to go to drama school just to have the experience doing a play learning lines and going on stage and doing the play so an english teacher. My school so often isn't a good teacher guides. You see something and guide to nine. I've always felt that. I owe huge amount. This particular english teacher told me about the ucla implied. In an i got in and and they did. It's often my second year. They did anti cleopatra puncture mostly because they had big army scenes and the guy who ran the theatre microsoft wonderful but he liked boys like girls and he liked a big groups of boys running on and off the stage so with dinky apart. He had the road all the then. The all egyptian. So and cleopatra was sort of site year second you know secondary thought these might is. But they'll have some play cleopatra but he chose me which was great and and that sort of launched my career basically. How old were you. At that time. i was eighteen. Nineteen as too young butter. But yes i was pretty young. Yes that i. I don't know about you but i when i started. I have no interested in being a film actress or television. Same with me cellino interest. I wanted to be a great theater actress. And all of my energy in the first ten years of my career i would say was concentrated on learning the cross and the art of being a theater actor you go back to the stage every few years i do i try to yes i try to. Although it's it's it's gets increasingly difficult doesn't as you get older because the energy i. It's funny tony. You know maybe two to three to four hours a night you know and toy. Did they think that people think that you're only working two hours working from the you wake up in the morning arrived from the minute you going. Everything's geared towards that moment and speak tonight. Do i have a cold by god. Absolutely when do i eat yes. When do i eat. When do i rest and the first thing you wake you open your eyes you go. Oh i now when you go back to the stage having made a lot of movies what draws you back. Is it the love of being there because when those of us who started their miss it usually or do you does. It does rev up your acting combination of things as not exactly duty but challenge. It's like can i do it still can i. It capable of hinge and an a slight sense of duty. Because i still do. And it's complete iran and i've learned how wrong this is but there is a slight leftover of that. That's real acting and film is something else and that's not true. Let me be absolutely clear about that. But it is a very different kind of energy and commitment and all the rest of it. An and So it's it's a combination of those things and also honestly a. I'm lucky that i've managed to get to a point in my career. Where if i'm asked to play a role on stage it's going to be a great role is a great wrong normally and i didn't know about you but i find it really hard to say no to create rebels. It is yeah it is. Do you have this feeling that. I that i have that. There's something about acting on the stage. That's fundamentally different from the film from film-acting which is that in film and film. You have to do it. Except in rare cases you have to do it in little bits and pieces and on the stage when the curtain goes up for two hours. It's all one shot. Yes you're on a journey from the moment that thing goes up to the and also you know you're you're your own editor in bill and you have final cut. You have final. Cut exactly right absolutely and the sort of the power. That's not the right word but the At because what we do is tell a story of communicator. A story an Whatever it is immoral story or a better story to an audience and and and you are responsible for that as an actor on the stage. You're not of course you're going to be helped set production values but you know you are responsible for telling that story and and as you say you have final cuts a really good way of putting it. Yeah coming from the stage. I had a hard time learning to act in front of a camera. Did you did you have to a get yourself together and and be able to accept the challenges that you face in front of a camera and for things like making sure you're in focus and in the light and i think is useless utterly useless because no idea about getting in the shot even or you know or the frame the camera or what to do. When you're in the frame. I felt when i started off in film acting i. I called it a deer in the headlights. Acting it's like action freeze for you. So i'd excuse me a long time and then i did a film called excalibur. It was one of my very early films directed by john. Boardman and poor. John he had all these completely inexperienced who have all now become funny enough gabriel byrne liam neeson myself have become you know certainly experienced film matters but at that point. None of us had any idea what we were doing. So you know. I didn't realize that when you rehearse to shocked you you couldn't change it. I it now. The camera hadra her spot. They had to do and i'd walk in. I want to do what i did. Guy should sit over here. Then walk over there. I think that would be much better. Say no you can't shave go. Wherever you went. Been late attract speed. Lay you gotta you gotta do what we rehearsed. So even those fundamental cited understand during this year of solitude that are leaning. I spent watching a lot of television. We watched three or four episodes a night of prime suspect brilliant and we just loved seeing you be her and the spontaneity was amazing. Well i was lucky. It wasn't a serious. So i wasn't on a conveyor belt i'd but we did a four hour story about every eighteen months so it was a fabulous job but but when we were shooting it it was intense and and every day and all day every day long days and i learned probably doing that was my real education in terms of team from the camera. I think so much of acting in front of a camera is actually a relationship with the crew that you get to feel that you're part of a whole day shift many ingredients and you're you're one of the ingredients but an important ingredient you're not the only ingredient and now when i woke on a film set i was always sort of. I didn't quite know who did what to. who is. who will you know. And i felt china barecelona film set. And we're gonna film set. And i feel i know who's who and i know how to relate to people i didn't know i just found that was very important part of the process. You seem to have that sense of connection in everything you do. Making the movie would connect him with the film crew. The performance itself where you connect with the other actors and i genuinely connection. It's not pretending to be connected. It totally it is completely convincing. I was thinking the other day that when you did prime suspect that was a benchmark. That was a breakthrough for on television. A driver been a show like that where the woman was the lead and in charge of men and that kind of thing and they weren't to talk show was going to work either. I mean they had been cut captain. Lacey had been on television. So you had had female led police show. But i was a to amend the the idea of one woman and her struggle with sexism. No that never been shown before and and they wanted to show that it was going to work. You know that the audience would accept some years with a female lead and my go-to How times have changed. I mean it's incredible. I saw clips of a graduation speech you gave which they're playing a lot on the internet now as we speak as we speak this the national women's month and so you're you're talk where you say you had not identified yourself as feminist until recently. I don't know when that talk was. Where would you remember where it was when it was it might if it is a commit a commencement speech because i yes i did the commencement speech for two lane. Univ- university about four or five years ago. So edelman major hits that yes so i was interested that you were in an instrumental. I think in presenting that character in a in a breakthrough away as as a feminist story. And yet you didn't identify as feminist. What was going on in your head as you as you were in that experience and and has it changed into the into the person you were when you gave the two lane speech. I think i was completely a feminist in the sense that i i walked the walk. But what. I didn't understand. And i was a bit sort of noisy proselytizing through the sixty s and seventy s. You know to me. It's being a humanist really big person and being doing what you feel is your right to do you know. And that was how i sort of operated and i think the other problem was that i've always been a bit of a girly girl and i love makeup and pike. He'll sit you know sexy Underwear sock like that. When i was young best. And they've you know they were not very feminist things with early. Feminism was a bit dungarees and you know a bit like that. And i certainly. I lifted tokyo's feminists. I always believed in having my money. I didn't believe in marriage. Actually i get quite late in life. you know a knife i believed in having might autonomy completely as a person i never. You know was not a complete. The independent person So you know. I couldn't quite but then later on when those elements of being woman were accepted under the umbrella of feminism. I guess i felt you know. Okay i can. I can be a feminist house. Now that's the thing isn't it. You towed a and i used to say to. God is you know. Just think for a moment every day of my life. I won't controversial film set that he's ninety nine percent male. Every day of my life. I walk into a very male atmosphere and you know quite nail mail. As well you think of grips and sparks and you know the guys who pushed the dollar. The it's it's a male male environment. And i just imagine if every day of your life you walked into nine thousand nine percent women and you had to negotiate women but they never got it whenever they went. Oh yes it says if the food of it. That's why i'm so. I'm so thrilled now to see female sound operators female camera operators and for the whole i was on the set fairly recently and fifty percent women technical technical signs fifty sentiment and i was really thrilled to see that at the same time i was. What woman and so. I had old privileges advantages of in that era of being a white woman. I'm wondering if you establishing yourself. So firmly as a strong female lead in prime suspect helped you get over being stereotyped as the Attractive woman the blond of yes sir. Yes he did. I recognized that roll. It came at me at a at an age. I think i was forty. Yes probably forty when it came so. It's a brilliant role to take me into the next. You know mayor of my active life. I was very lucky that that cater always. It's always amazed me that at forty. You're considered an older woman considered an older man until around him. Well i think that's changing. I think that's changed lot but yes in that at that in those days. Yes yes you're right. Although i must say when i was in my early sixties early sixties which to me now as a kid. I started getting scripts where the guy dies at the end of dementia. Written probably by somebody. Who's thirty sixty must be old. It's not a when we come back from break. Helen mirren talks about how the greatest playwright who ever lived had problems with endings and the challenge of shooting a movie in the time of covert clear and vivid can be downloaded for free because it's supported by our sponsors and by as they say people like you but there are no people like you. You're you we wanna make sure you know about patriot. Dot com slash clear and vivid. That's where if you love hearing from the extraordinary guests we have on our shows. You can become a patron and get early access to special videos. And at the highest here you can join me in our monthly get together online. I think you'll find out that the listeners to our podcast are often as much fun to hear from our guests. We're grateful to you will thank you. And don't forget to check out patriotic dot com slash clear and vivid. We're lucky to have a lot of when it comes to what we eat but it really matters where the food comes from. You can get your nutrition straight from nature. The wild alaskan company sources wild caught seafood from alaska and the pacific northwest. They deliver high quality sustainably sourced wild caught seafood. Right to your door. You can choose from salmon whitefish or a combination and every month there are different specials to explore each shipment contains premium wild caught individually wrapped portions of delicious seafood is ready to prepare an easy to cook while the last company seafood comes straight from nature. It's always wild. It's never farmed or modified and it contained no antibiotics. He can pause adjust or cancel your membership anytime and they offer a one hundred percent satisfaction. Guaranteed or your money back. Can't you nutrition from nature with wild alaskan company. And right now you can get fifteen dollars off your first box of premium seafood when you visit wild alaskan company dot com slash older. That's wild alaskan company dot com slash older for fifteen dollars off your first box wild alaskan company com slash all to make sure to use our url to let them know that we sent you thanks. This is clear and vivid and now back to my conversation with helen. Mirren i get the impression you've mastered not only acting but the art of the interview is well. I've i've seen on a number of interviews. You're just a spontaneous thing you you you said when you came out on stage in your masterclass walking across the stage is the hardest thing to do is yourself. That's true of an interview too because all you have to do is be yourself but you have to be the six minutes of yourself. That are the most scintillating interview so frightening and you're fearless fearless. Try to push myself into a fearless. Stay stay let me let me tell me run down. I saw you do wrapping with gordon coming out on stage and kissing guilty about that. Sexual that wrapping that too. Were you using few cards at you. Have to learn. I learned very sweet. They really helped. They helped me a lot. Yes they have the most frightening. Was i think it was a letterman. I was all men and in the in the commercial break. The producer came out and said okay. We're doing good key ki you fine. Just make sure you keep the energy up my to keep the energy up here. I'm just like i'm not before you know. So i found that very very lobby intimidating. And i immediately to the slumped lower in my seat. I know what that's like it is. It is a kind of performance performance. And you don't want you to be performance here in this horrible buying between sort of. Oh i don't know. I find the Really exhausting but it's it's good to try and keep one's mind open and not just be fixed on the story that you said you were gonna tell them. Then you tell that story in and you know. I was thinking when we were talking about feminist roles. I wondered if you'd ever played kate in taming of the shrew did. I never did placate. You must have thought about it. What how would you. How would you play that last scene. Where for the whole play out her own territory and she's not giving into the guys demands and then at the end she says something. Like i'm ashamed. Women are so simple that they make war with men instead of asking for peace. I put my hand under my foot. I thought about that. I thought maybe because you know you can do things. Oh she's really crossing. she doesn't really want to do it. She does it. She turns out goes like that. Shoot she gives you more. She gives you week to her girlfriend. And i didn't really mean that or it's kind of hard to do without betraying the words. Yes exact- hand shakes. Sometimes you have to look for a much deeper promote profound understanding in it. Sometimes you know anyway that you know that. The last act of shakespeare's often very problematic. He never quite. He never knew quite you how to finish plays. It wasn't very is always difficult. All of their light really difficult kind of he just ties with the ends together. And it's like you could be with the fifth app but it is. It's also a problem to play as brilliant as it is to do a play. Today that was ridden four hundred years ago. Yes but the magic isn't it is if that when it's well donna and a great which shakespeare there's always something it touches the heart. So what hope do you have for us to reach that level of equality that you were hoping for a few minutes ago. Enormous optimism for that. So it's one of the reasons i want. I'd like to stay alive. you know. i'm so curious about what happens next about you. I mean i feel so sorry for cook could be. You know who never witnessed. Gps gps as the most amazing thing. Don't you think i see you. I mean i walked follicle dot. You know especially when i was in new york not quite sure whereas going and that's my little like what myself walking down fifth avenue i do. I'm so grateful that i was alive to see it. You know you you die young while you get old. There's nothing in between and i. I don't want to die young. I want to. I want to see what's happening. What's going to happen. And certainly what's happened in the last ten years in terms of race in tim's agenda in terms of so many things a credible Breakthrough incredible and the way. Now it's you know the the things that what to complete unit. I'm talking about absolutely unthinkable. Thirty years ago gay marriage utterly unthinkable and now absolutely except hidden. And it's so it's so exciting and wonderful to see these things happening. It and as i saved you will come and sit and to see fifty percent women even five years ago. That was not possible. So you know if we re just the threshold of that so. I'm very excited about what happens next week. I hope you do live a long time. I wanna to see your performance when you're a hundred years old and one of of us especially went that because i'm ten years older than a double whammy to hab. Good they i can't win you going off to shoot a film now aren't you. I am to shooting prog under the new. You know the protocol the prokoviev protocols which i find quite sad you know aids great that we can work at an aug lead. Great that the Cruise the whole process of making a film. It's very very different under those are under the protocols. It's you know you can't you know. Meet people by profit services and have a chat to the to the sound guy. And you can't do any of those things it's It's a very different process. So i'm i'm really looking forward to the time when all of this will be over. How do they handle tied two shots and over the shoulders and that kind of thing. Good well people tested all the time you get tested to three times a week so as someone comes up positive basically the production gets shut down because then they have an and the other thing they do is they. Keep oversee actors are in there. They keep people in their own ports if you let them bubbles so You know the camera in one bubble the actor in another couple with makeup artists and the And costume people but if someone within that bubble gets has positive test then you then basically the production get shut down until everyone is negative again. Does it get in the way. At all with your. Because i'll be shooting in a couple of months does get in the way of your relating to the other actors. Well actually honesty. Anything i've done so far was a solo was a ba- a one woman thing. I didn't have any raptors in it. So this will be the first time with with actors. No i suspect within the app team world where it does is the direct because dr it to can't come up to you and give a new. You know that. That wouldn't bother to director i worked with one was at the other end of the sound stage because he would he would call out directions by screaming he would say sometimes more so. A my theory says eighty four derek. Good directions and sometimes it's a combination of any two of them and the four of faster slower more and less and nineteen per se of of direction is basically less faster. Do we have to end our talk. Not i have to let you go. You can pack for your trip but we close our shows with seven quick questions that roughly about communication okay. They're not embarrassing or anything. I question what do you wish you really understood. I'm not gonna be since out of this sort thing. I wish i really understood how to be funny. I think catchweight. I very good at the and i would love to understand comedy you. May you make me live. How number two. How do you tell someone. They have their facts wrong. Well that that's difficult. Isn't it because the necessary. I mean if you absolutely know that. Their facts wrong. I guess you just say you know that's not true. but a kellyanne conway Talking about who turn into truths but truth truth of things. Sometimes it's a matter of perception. Of course there is an absolute fact. Light ages effect that today in los angeles some shining. it's not raining is shining and that's that But there are other true said more. Subjective sometimes Engen that's what ought is about isn't it is all the different layers some truth and understandings truth. I've also felt when she made the statement. That one way you could explain it. Was that different. Truths are different. Layers of truth have different important. Yeah different people and absolutely be relatively true absolutely and different understandings. Same fact people can have some understanding of that fact which colors the fact itself if you like. Is it a good thing or is it about saying for example. Now here's the third question. What's the strangest question anyone who's ever ask you. Oh it's not a strange question but it was a very sweet question. I united a a sort of clause in dallas. I was doing tool to about shakespeare and we did a a a sort of thing with the school kids and it was very sweet. Faded wants to know anything about acting or about shakespeare. All they wants to know is how much money we made. And did we get to keep our costumes very interesting. I love it very practical. How do you stop a compulsive talker. Oh my husband is a compulsive talker. Nobody's come up with an answer. Is an unstoppable trade. There's you can try to change the subject. You could quite be asleep. At the caller there is no stopping. An unstoppable token i get. I hate people telling jokes. That's what they used to be a man Male thing you just one stupid kickoff. Another really all they want is an audience and it's almost impossible to get away. You have to go to the lose and then sneak sneak about though and come back. I don't like jokes either. I matter who funny says great people. Just tell one. Oh i tell you funny one. Have you heard about of very so. Let's talk and then there's another jokin. Really just all want. Someone is to be surrounded by an audience list interim and i find that very annoying. Let's share you're at a dinner party sitting next to someone you don't know. How do you strike up a true genuine conversation with that person. My sister is very good at this. She just awesome about family. And everyone's got a family and everyone's family is interesting. And so you know sato questions about do you have children. Oh really hugging. That were can pay. People love to talk about families and it's an easy conversation next question. What gives you confidence. I think the thing that i mean. I'm the. I'm not a constant person. I'm i'm very. I'm very achieve very confident. And and as you know job that's that's that's difficult but that's the one thing that helps me is is just to put is to take attention away from myself and put it onto other people people around you and the minute you do that and stop thinking by so you know you get confidence but you don't care quotes about the i you know you forget if you like so Just to remember that. You as i say just one the ingredients. You'll not angry less question. What book changed your life I changed my life. I love i love. A good book. Book has changed. My life is hell dishes. Been so terrific so great guy. Pleasure bye bye. Guys by has been clear and vivid. At least i hope so. My thanks to the sponsor of this podcast and to all of you. Who support our show on patriotic. You keep clear and vivid up and running. And after we pay expenses whatever's leftover goes to the all the center for communicating science at stony brook university. So your support is contributing to the better communication of science. Were very grateful. Helen mirren is one of the greatest and most compelling actors of our time per theater television and movie roles over the last fifty plus years have included several queens numerous shakespeare characters including prospera of female prosperous and of course detective jane tennison in the breakthrough television series prime suspect that dates back to the nineteen ninety s. And if you don't know prime suspect you gotta check it out. It opened the door to new generations of tough smart troubled female detective. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham shed with help from our associate producer. Jean shaheen are sound. Engineer is dan. Zula and publicist. Is sarah hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple. Podcast stitcher over ever. You like to listen next. In our series of conversations. I talk with anthropologist. Herman punter his studies of hunter-gatherers have provided a whole new perspective on the evergreen issue of diet and exercise. He surprised even himself when he measured. How many calories. The people of tanzania burn each day despite a lifestyle far more strenuous than the rest of us so we were there to measure Energy expenditures really fundamental to any organisms biology. And we were sure that e can imagine. It's very physically demanding to be a hunter gather. We thought they would have very high energy expenditures every day And in fact what we saw was that will. We compared their the calories neighbor. Every day to the calories that many women in the west and other western countries born everyday it's the same to find out how hunter-gatherers do so much more with the same number of calories that we use sitting in front of our computers check out next week's clear and vivid with herman pancer meanwhile on our other podcast science clear and vivid. We begin a new season and this season. We're featuring women. Scientists starting on thursday with beranda montgomery in her new book lessons from plants. Beranda really opened my eyes to how much plans connect and communicate. The great majority of plants in a forest are actually connected underground and so there's so much communication that's happening between them. And i think too frequently we think of plans as these loan beings. I don't know why we're not but we think of plants is kind of existing on their own and they're actually in these very physically connected but also chemically connected. networks that's really determining how how well they do in those environments for rhonda montgomery in what we humans can learn from plants communication skills next time on science clear and vivid for more details about clear and vivid into sign up for my newsletter. Please visit alan. All dot com and you can also find us on facebook and instagram. At clear and vivid. And i'm on twitter at alan alda. Thanks for listening bye bye.

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Paul Rudd: In the Moment with Ant-Man

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

45:23 min | 3 months ago

Paul Rudd: In the Moment with Ant-Man

"Isn't it nice to have something that's fun to eat and good for you at the same time. Cheerios or one hundred percent whole grain oats in shape. We've come to associate with funds since we were kids and now that we're grown up. We can appreciate what they can do to help. Keep us healthy. Learn more about a heart healthy lifestyle. Cheerios dot com and find. Honey nut cheerios. Wherever you shop for syria. I'm alan alda. And this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. I think when people talk about improvisation and even improvising scenes. When you're working on a film and comedy it's not really about the jokes if you can think of one in the moment it great but if you are really if you're really connected with the person you're acting opposite You have to kind of innately know. Oh this is where this is going. So i have to play this seriously to help them do what they're going to do. That's paul rudd. We've acted in a couple of movies together. And in fact one of the highlights of my acting life was a scene. We improvised one of the reasons that sticks in my memories that we manage to do what paul was just talking about we connected with each other and we went with it wherever it leads. The scene never made it into the movie but for me it was a highlight and i was glad to be back in touch with paul again. This is great to be talking with you. Because i had so much fun with you when we act together i feel the same i i i loved working with you more the ones we've been able to do it. I mean going back to the nineties with object of my affection and then wanderlust. We had a blast. One of the highlight for me. Was that scene. We improvise in wunderlist. That never made it into the movie. But you were you. Were you such a good improviser. Did you ever study import. Improvisation or did you belong to an improv company. Ever i never did that by the way. That was a highlight of my career. Getting meal do that with you. But i never. I never really studied it in terms of going through second city or doing any of that kind of stuff when i was in high school junior high and high school. I started doing These speech competitions in our school district and one of the one of the Categories that you could perform in was Improvised duet acting. So i had an acting partner and that was We would do these tournaments where you'd pick a topic or something you get to go out in the hall for ten minutes or so come back in and then perform some four. Three four minutes catch That was the first experience i've ever had with any kind of improvisation. And i really liked it but once i decided to become an actor i studied theater and never provides when you're doing a play and then when i started working in movies very little improvisation. It wasn't until i had worked on the movie. Anchorman and i worked with will ferrell. And adam mckay and jud appetite that all of a sudden. They started filming They started improvising. So much and really using the script. As a blueprint. And i just loved it so much and i loved what that just love what it could do for a moment and what you know. Keep you on your toes forces you to listen he and that ultimately what this is all about so right you know. I improvised alive as a young actor and learned viola. Poland's sway of improvising. Did you ever come across her work. No it's amazing. Could is not comedy improvising. There's a lot of laughter involved in an because the spontaneity which tables everybody you know you right when you see something happening for the first time and the people are really connected really listening to each other and in the same place. It tickles him. Yeah but it's not jokes. You don't go for jokes when this is the biggest misconception. I think when people talk about improvisation and even improvising scenes. When you're working on a film and comedy it's it's not really about the jokes if you can think of one in the moment great but if you are really if you really connected with the person you're acting opposite You have to kind of innately know. Oh this is where this is going to play this seriously to help them do what they're going to do. The two basic elements of improvising. You do one is to agree. Say yes and yes wind right. Where does that take a next and the other is to make your partner look good and that rose your partner as a as a tool for your own aggrandizement. When you started improvising. More and movies. Did you find that changed you in your day to day routines with other people. Because i i see you seem to live in an improper tori life. I see you're comfortable with strangers. Nothing seems to throw you. Somebody comes over to the table while you're eating you don't spit out your food. Maybe maybe maybe it's taught me to not to not let that fear and panic show. Yeah i should say. I'm not completely unflappable. In any of those situations i don't feel it inside but like anything if you fake it. Well enough then. It's good enough and it. Probably i suppose the improvisation of all of it has informed who i am To a certain extent it has certainly informed how i hacked. Because i don't think i've done anything in the last except a play where i don't really i won't it provides but I don't think i've done anything where i haven't at played around with dialogue or left some space and say hey. We just see what happens here. I know. I know that. Feeling when i when i was a kid and beginning on the stage in rehearsal i would because i loved improvising so much i'd feel free and rehearsal to improvise a line here and there and i would like a million bucks on opening night. Those lines were still in the play. You know right well. Yeah that's a lot easier to do. If you're not doing hamlet much what what do you do when the writers alive you get a little bit. If i have rehearsed the play and the and the playwright is in the room during rehearsals and the end they might say yet. I liked that. Let's let's add. Yeah right exactly. What do you do. Because i know you've done shakespeare. What do you do with all your spontaneity. You're you're just loaded with spontaneity. Do you have a way to combine that with rigid demand of speaking poetry. I suppose the spontaneity is Everything that you do outside of the dialogue with. I'm doing play. I love working with other actors that they're so free that they change everything they're doing even on a nightly basis no words the words are the same. Yeah but maybe there's a they're doing something in between the in between the lines and that's completely different it. Just it's so charged so great to act with people that do that. I did a play and the actor. A great actor michael shannon. I loved working with him every night. He was doing something completely different. And when you're doing a play and you're doing eight shows a week over time you you want that it wanted wanted some break from the standard. The keeping the thing a beating heart. That's right and i've on this show. I've talked with great musicians. Like yo yo ma. And it's not perlman they say exactly the same thing. Play the same notes but come alive to in a different way At each performance. If would your background also just always improvising. When you're writing something used improvising the scene in your mind and you just start to let that take over a little bit. I do you find that to be true are you. I did miss him a little more mysterious because with me. Different characters are improvising on their own. You know i. It's not not. As if i'm the character i hear these people talking in a way it's and then it's not quite as loopy as it sounds. It's not wou-wou but it's unusual but you're in the mindset of that character and so what you improvise or what you're saying is different for each character. Yes yes how do you learn lines. You remember reminding me of how i learn my lines. How do you learn your lines. I write them out. That's interesting yeah. I learned that in in I learned that in in acting school and win a million play. I would write them out. And i just keep writing them over and over so they were so ingrained If i have to memorize a lot of dialogue in its film and i i will just read them and over them and over them. And i i can memorize pretty quickly so There's no hard and fast rule. But i do find that at the end of the day if i really need to get something down and i have a lot of dialogue to memorize. I'm i'm writing it out. I can't learn anything off a piece of paper. I did something wrong with my brain there. I have to do it. I have to say. I used to learn all my lines in rehearsal on the stage. Because you rehearse for weeks right in movies you rehearse for seconds so then are you getting your dialogue and then are you walking around your your house or your in your trailer or wherever you're dressing room and you're just saying the lines out loud and kind of acting it out before you have to aid even worse than that. I turn on the iphone. And i record the whole scene so i i have the advantage of playing a scene. Yep so the other characters are played by me in cartoon voice. So i do it at a different so i know who's talking. I love you so much. I'll never leave you. But what about this guy. Who's here what me i'm. I'm just delivering milk. Your i've done it too by the way. There's no no one way. Try on thing. Yeah it it's helpful. Whatever it takes to get them down the one thing that when i learned to write them out and when i was doing this at first when i would do it as a play it was always try and memorize my lines before any rehearsal and i tried to memorize them and write them out and never say them aloud when you write them out you You really get them down your subconscious in a way that you just you don't when you're just going over something you're also reading the other lines From the other actors the other characters So you know how to reply. And what they're saying is the most important part or just as important and And so that was an interesting way to start by by writing lines out never saying loud and then we'd get to the rehearsal room and perform the scene or start rehearsing it and it's and when you're writing it out. You're not committed to a way of doing exactly. You're not hearing the intonation. You're hearing your head a little bit but you're not actually saying it allowed and when you then get it on its feet. Sometimes the words come out very differently. It's a it's a real discovery in rehearsal. When you haven't actually been going over your lines so good it's really good. It's a lie. It's a luxury that. I think you have in theater a lot more than you know. Tv and film I was thinking when you were talking about improv. During the shooting of a movie from the stage experience. I have every line has written his. You know it's it's important to have to have to find out what it really means. And why i'm saying it and sometimes i can't understand what the purpose of these words is and sometimes when you ask somebody get offended if you ask them. So what do you do when that happens Well i figure if. I don't know exactly what it is that i'm saying it's not it. No one else is going to understand. Enhance be through a test. You kind of have to know it and that just kind of goes back. Also when i was first studying shakespeare in i had my shakespeare glossary and it was in. School is a you better know what you are saying on every line and if you don't it will just sound like a bunch of jakobsen gobbledygook you're not gonna follow any of it as an audience member. Yeah if you know as the actor what it is that you're saying it the audience is gonna know if they're going to it. They very where they don't even have to speak the language. You can understand an actress intention by the way their voices way. The way they're moving the you can understand these things but but only if you really know what it is. You're saying so. I might offend somebody or am i. I'm looking all claim stupidity. I don't get. I kinda. Don't get what am i say. Yes i do too i just. I don't have to feign stupidity. You say. I don't either more often than not. They actually just assume that they let me explain team. I had a terrible experience. Once where i i had the wrong idea about what the scene was. And i've seen other actors go through this too. They they they come in with just the opposite notion of what's going on and it's difficult to get an actor to turn it around the opposite of it. Yeah but high here. I was at this point doing the opposite of it. And i didn't realize it and nobody was telling me. Oh because they were afraid that they didn't want to hurt my feelings. I i when we were unmatched we would just be so open with each other because we trusted each other. Like when you're doing your own films your own project films that you've written and directed for Versus ones that you have just been a higher to act in do you do. Is your approach different. You feel as passionate about all of them or you more passionate about yours particularly and you want to get the way. I used to get more desperate if it was your broker directed i would. I'd be more likely to get into a mode where i was pleading with the audience to go. We wasn't very attractive. Does to see that happen in. Put it as an actor. You can put a few months into a movie as a writer and as the director. You're you putting at least two years into. It may be three or four. Yeah so the desperation quotient can go up well and as a result. The passion for something is deeper. It's your thing when we come back from our break. Paul rudd talks about getting in shape for starring role in the ant man movies and what became an extended version of our seven quick questions. Paul tells me what he wishes he really understood. And what's the strangest question he's ever been asked after this. Don't forget if you enjoy listening to the fascinating guests. We have one clear and vivid. You can help. Keep the flame alive by becoming a patron of the show. Clear in vivid in all the center for communicating. Science are both nonprofit and your patronage of clear and vivid. Help support them. Both you can become a patron at any level and get early access to special videos at the highest level. You can get fun in sometimes weird benefits like my recording of your personalized voicemail. Message either with courteous dignity for the rambunctious among you a message with a certain amount of attitude take a look at patriotair dot com slash clear and vivid patriot dot com slash clear and vivid. And thank you. This is clear and vivid. And now back to my conversation with paul rudd. Now let me ask you about it man. I was very struck by the scene where you took off your shirt. Had these rippling muscles was that your was that a computer. That was me. Yeah that was. It was the and i always say like if you really really want to get in great shape Try and get cast as the lead in a marvel film. Wouldn't do me any good. It's a really really good motivator. I had to do a movie. Where a few years ago. Whereas already passed seventy five and i get out of a swimming pool and walk the past next to the pool and pick up a towel i said. Don't make me do this in a bathing suit. Don't worry we got a computer. That's gonna fix everything fifteen years off my belly. It really wish. I knew that they would do. They could do that before. I put in the year. Just eating salmon really wants to work note. Lee aren't god. It's a heart ill with the hardest. You've ever worked on anything and the hardest is is the actual diet and exercise preparing for these marvel films. It's it's great. I mean. I have never been in better shape than you know as middle aged guy working on these in these movies but I i'd never. I'd never committed to fitness and diet and exercise like that in my life. And you i understand when people say oh you feel great you sleep. Great you have energy and and clarity and focus i. I really did feel all the benefits of that And so it you know it was a cool experience to do still kind of doing it and I was going to ask you. do you keep it up. yeah i i do. I kept. I never stopped from doing in between the first and second one. We're getting ready to do a third one but I actually just worked on something and went longer than it was supposed to because ovid But that part would've it wouldn't have made any sense to be in great shape. And so i had been training before that thing came around and i stopped all of it and then now you behind the so now. I picked it up now over the last few months working with trainers in diet and all of that stuff. But it's coming a lot harder this this and now i have to. I got a really so for the next for the rest of the year. I'm going to be in fitness zone. But it's amazing. How quickly it all goes away. Goes way faster than he comes in. Boy you are not kidding you know we. We usually our shows with seven quick questions that ask for seven quick answers. But i'd like to know more about your answers to these questions. Okay so don't feel you have to have super brief answers. Because i want to hear more stuff. These are questions that have roughly related to communication and relating first of all. What do you wish you really understood. Italian and quantum physics italian quantum physics. And you know for me. It's quantum physics in italian boy. That's a no kidding boy. That's the double whammy You were great. When i asked you to play a do a reading of a theater piece. I wrote based on the letters of albert einstein. I asked you to be albert einstein and i remember being so wary of asking you. Because you're very busy. I wanted. I wanted to make sure you knew that it'd be a lot of fun and it wouldn't take long to do and you just answered with one quick and you had me at equals. Mc squared. oh. I was elated. I was so honored. You had asked me to do that. I was excited. I mean i find the subject matter incredibly interesting. I'm such a fan of yours. That was the coolest thing ever. I loved it wonderful in unit. You've first of all you knew what you were talking about. As as the scientists einstein and you also knew where the laughs or as an actor and i loved it was it was a i mean what a pleasure and getting to hang out with you. And and learning a little bit from brian. Yeah yeah fragment. Br brian greene. What is your. Do you have an interest in in quantum physics and that kind of thing and managed floating around in the quantum realm right. Did you write that after you played on steiner before wrote it after right after actions did that it was right when this was all starting to happen and i spend a lotta time afterward with. Brian greene asking him questions. I find the whole notion of quantum physics and it's so mind-bending truly and when you talk to somebody who really knows what they're talking about. They actually make it. Seem like you understand it. I find that when i talked with you. I find that when i talk about science with brian. It's i had that same feeling when i went to a c. arcadia tom stoppard's words. I think oh. I totally understand. Fermat's last theorem. But they're the person explaining it is so bright makes me feel smart and no i i i find it all so fascinating and hard to really grasp and when i'm you know either writing about the quantum realm we're talking about This kind of stuff in these ant man films at there it's always the most rudimentary inconsistent Wannabe way but i always will try and say does this. You know talk to somebody who would know. This does seem within the realm of possibility. I mean you know you would. You would check out. Yeah i do. Yeah so You know what is it. That i big question. I'm going back to the original. What what is it. That i wish i under. I understood I i always would like to know more about why. Do and react to things. The way that i do and and who i am i mean. I'm always envious of whenever. I hear the really amazing people are very bright people. And they say oh. No i know who i am. And it's an interesting phrase who i am. I just think oh god. How lucky are you. I share your quest. And i think as you get older because you're interested in that question you'll probably find his ided more moments where i think. I know who i am will think you know where you are. I don't know if you'd get that easily right away. It takes it takes. I feel you know over time like you say more experiences. Might you know when i had children. And i've been watching my children grow up What it is understanding. What makes me happy now. More so than i did. Ten years ago. Twenty years ago they are experiencing real loss and grief in ways that i never had until my father died. That kind of thing you know they do inform us experiences like that inform us and they're informing me of how i feel about it. But i i. i'm still trying to piece it all together. I don't have a real clear cut knowledge of who. It is exactly that i am. Well let me get to the second of seven question. Okay how do you tell someone. They have their fact wrong. There facts round assuming the fact is yeah. I mean Boy this is a really and every day were confronted with this right now depending on who it is that i'm talking to and what it. What those facts are and what it is with. The subject matter is sometimes i will. I will either say well. That's an interesting way of looking at it. This is my take on it. And and that's ideally where. I'd like to imagine my situation every time the majority of the time i am losing my patients and say no. You're wrong how can you even and that kind of thing. And then there's another part of the time where. I think i'm not even any debate. The fact that these facts are. I'm just gonna get out. I'm just remove myself from this conversation. Get me out of here. Okay number three. What is the strangest question. Anyone has ever asked you boy. I the strangest. I have one question. I never really know how to answer that. I get a lot of people always want to know. They say you don't age. What do you do like. They wanna know my skin care routine or the date. They asked me a lot about. How is it that it doesn't seem like i'm aging. As quickly as i should which i feel inside that i am and i look at myself i think i am. I don't know what you're seeing but more often than not i get asked this question and it's always thrown out in a way. That is impossible to answer. I never know what to say. It's a nice echo. thank you but i i always. I always struggle with that one. That question i never i never know how to. I have a fun funny version of that. I seem to have looked younger to people for a long time. Then i really was. And when i was sixty people would say how old i am sixty they say oh no no come on. What do you mean kamara. And then now he's a hell all the eighty five day say at this the point of eighty five but now there's an age everybody reaches where it's i know you mean and i'm starting to get that were into that Fifty two okay. No makes sense. So i it is. It is true there was. I remember speaking of just great. Improvisation and i was working on a movie called. This is forty. And i got to work with albert brooks. Who in my opinion is one of the funniest people on these great. And so this scene with He was doing with leslie man and she sang. It's unfair. i'm getting older. And i'm looking older. He's getting older but he's still looks Young and she was complaining about this and his line that he revised he said. That's for now. it's just now by the. Don't worry by the time he hits fifty. You're you're waking up next to a rabbi so soon there it is yeah when you hit a certain point. It's like all right now. Now you look your age. It's not a bad thing okay. Here's the next question. This is another communication question. How do you stop a compulsive talker. Well that is It's that's a tough one to well depending on what they're talking about you you can offer up. Well you know. Let me interrupt you hear me. Tell you about my My relationship with scientology. And then they'll go to leave in fact they have a pamphlet here for let me. I've got something here to go over. Yeah early give them a taste of their so whatever. It is yeah okay. Let's say you're sitting at a dinner table which is coming back now and you're sitting next to someone you don't know. How do you start up of true authentic conversation with that person you don't know. Yeah wow this is yeah. This is a great question and there's always the standard what do you. What do you do which is pretty standard but I have friends that are so good at this. And i back and marvel at. What did they do. They are so I think that what they do. Is they really listen to what that other person is saying. And then they ask them questions about it and they they will Make it so relaxed an easy for that other person to talk. And then they'll say something based on what it was. They're talking about so that it isn't they. Don't prisoners feel like they're just getting barraged with questions about themselves but instead becomes a conversation the you know the person is really contributing to what it is you're talking about and then it's and then it opens it up a little bit and so if there's any way you can somehow get some kind of common ground some topic here where it's like. Oh i know a little bit about this I'm interested in this. And then did you find in and i suppose just Ask them ask them questions. I'm trying to get better at at that. and not. just say what you just did. It really sounds useful at tone. Did you have that same thing. You know that where you are interested in them in on the fly. Yeah and yeah fight inviting them to just get off the awkward carousel and get on the ground with you. Yeah i mean just and it's it's a real skill. it's not a skill that i possess I i would like to be better at it. Okay next question. What book changed your life. you know. At the time that i read it. I was young. I was in college. I i read siddhartha and Had a real it great question. It had a real effect me at the time. In just in this to be able to fast to be able to think it'd be to be able to think in a way and sit and think and still with your the that that book I thought about that book for a long little bit about it. I'm not sure iranian. Herman hats Or is it. Yeah yeah yeah. I know the title but i never read it right it. It's it's a lot about kind of. I haven't read it in a long. But but the this thing to repeat quite a bit about being able to fast to be to be able to think and self reflection and meditation and enlightenment I mean it was. It was a very. I'm talking about it now and people that might be listening. What what books he taught. But it was it dealt with some themes. That i hadn't ever really thought about too much i was in an age. I mean i was probably she said might have even been in high school It was different than any other book that i read. Which either if it wasn't something autobiographical with some sort of fictional story and that but it didn't really deal with spiritual issues in any way And i just remember. It shifted my way of thinking. And i still i still think about. Oh not that i fast. I don't i have in the past. And i think it was the times i had done that. I always was thinking back to that. Book this. What sort of inspiration. What kind of what. My clarity of my thoughts would be in introspection. it sounds like introspection. Is something book gave you gave you. The beginning of an introspective life is that is that what happened. Yeah yeah. I mean it made me trying to really think. An things on a on. A much deeper introspective level That was just one. I'm going through. I'm going through the checklist the in in my mind different books at different times. I i I bred a prayer for owen. Meany it might have been wanna say. The first. John irving book that i had written that i loved then sent me on john irving tear And so that that book you know really had a profound impact on and led to many different books that i read by john. Let me ask you the question. what about you. i'm curious about what would me. It was kind of weird. The book that changed my life was when i read when i was seven years old called top or at crescent ranch and we just a story about a horse that made me want to be a writer And i i started to write a book that i was inspired to write by reading top horford. Cresent ranch in the title of my book was not the top horse at crescent range. You can see i had to create a man but it made me. It made me awaken to the idea that you can put words together and create things in people's minds that you can stir feelings and have people appear in do things and it was all in the imagination. Yeah and then i. I love the that that made me want to be a writer. And the the fact that my father had many books full of sketches from burlesque which which he had been a straight man in before he became a movie actor right. So i i would draw in those schedules from burlesque and i would right Courtroom scenes pull stupid gags so it was booked that yeah the they really showed you what you wanted to do. Yeah i wanted to be a writer writer at eight and then later in life. When i was nine i wanted to be an actor so writing came. First you yeah. So here's the last question. What gives you confidence These are great questions. Greg questions on what gives me confidence. Well different things in different ways. I if i'm if i can make if i'm working on a movie and i do in its and the crew laughs. I feel confident. Comedian with the band. Listening yeah you know. Just get all. i know. They're not supposed to laugh. And the then. I i i feel a little Confident fine finally. You had that moment where you had ideas about and man and then there was this other moment a little bit later where you were writing. It seemed seems to me. There was some confidence in between those two moments. Well it you know. It's in a way it's going back to what we're talking about early in this podcast. Which is it doesn't matter. What your feeling on the inside if you can fake it well enough act like you're sweating it too much. It's almost as good i. I'm i came to that movie as an actor. Not as a writer. I hired as a writer after the fact and I was somebody that did not grow up knowing about him. And i was not a comic book Fanatic and i knew i was trading in territory where the fan them was pretty intense and they know the day. No the backstory's of all of these characters in this in this world and real comic book lovers and and and so i was a little Certainly not very confident in my knowledge of this world and I i knew that. When i was working with adam mckay that i was working with a great co-writer and partner in it and i also knew that the people at marvel and kevin feigen that group they do know this world and they do and they're really talented so i was able to Take some solace knowing that i was surrounded by really talented people and that includes the you know the cast but But no i. I i guess at some point. You just have to look like what's the alternative. I just don't do anything. Do any of this better. I better at least fake my way through it as much as possible and and then just hope for the best or you didn't fake your way through this conversation i really i. I appreciate you giving everything so much. thought version. I really enjoyed it. And i know what's going to happen. Is that when we're done and we hang up. I'm going to think of a book. I can't believe i if you if you can't think of one. I recommend top horse. Great to talk to you for thank you thank you. I appreciate great talking to you. This has been clear and vivid. At least i hope so. My thanks to the sponsor of this podcast and to wall of you. Who support our show on patriot. You keep clear and vivid up and running. And after we pay expenses whatever's leftover goes to the all the santa for communicating science at stony brook university. So your support is contributing to the better communication of science. Were very grateful. Paul right is getting back in shape and brushing up on quantum mechanics to film the third and men movie later this year. It's subtitled quantum mania. Meanwhile he's co starring with will ferrell in an apple. Tv original series premiering in november called the shrink next door. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham shed with help from our associate producer. Jeanne shaheen are sound engineers. Erica and our publicist. Is sarah hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple. Podcasts stitcher wherever you like to listen Next in our series of conversations. I talk with cynthia. Kenyon she made a major breakthrough twenty years ago. When she discovered a gene that dramatically slowed aging in a miniscule worm. Since then she's been working to see if her discovery could slow ageing and other animals. Like you and me first of all have to just say and i always say this because it's very true. We don't know that the drug that we could make to hit. These genes will have an effect at all in humans. But let's suppose do it would be as though it would take you two days to ages much as you now age in one day. Okay so you would spend a lot more time being young but then you would also spend more time being old on the other hand wait. There's one more thing that's good. That is good. Which is that enamels. These drugs seem to have very beneficial effects on diseases. There's less cancer of the heart is much better. It seems like the brain is more is better so it's not really clear what will happen. But at least if we go by what we see an animal's the diseases of aging seemed to be pushed out and they that is later in time and if anything. They seem less severe. Cynthia canyon next time on clear and vivid. Meanwhile on our other podcasts. Science clear and vivid. I talk with polina and akiva. She's making breakthroughs in communicating with the sales of the brain and spinal cord using ultra thin electrodes and even tiny magnetic particles. Gues- are very much at the frontier of technology. A lot of things that we do are strange and wild and of very far away from the clinic because there's a lot of Safety and efficacy studies that need to be conducted before we can apply this to treat human condition but in terms of providing information to understand how the brain works. The nervous system works. That's what our device is ready to be used right now. Polina anna kifah. Next time on science clear and vivid for more details about clear and vivid and to sign up for my newsletter. Please visit alan alda dot com. And you can also find us on facebook and instagram at clear and vivid and i'm on twitter at alan alda. Thanks for listening bye bye.

paul rudd adam mckay jakobsen alan alda brian greene shakespeare paul Anchorman michael shannon ferrell albert einstein arcadia tom stoppard viola syria Paul rudd Poland brian Fermat steiner
Mayim Bialik: How Acting Led to Science and Science to Acting

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

44:48 min | 3 weeks ago

Mayim Bialik: How Acting Led to Science and Science to Acting

"I'm alan alda. And this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. You know actually left academia to be home with my children meaning. I got my doctorate and then did not take a post doc position and eventually that led to me returning to acting because i was running out of health insurance. That's the truth than i ended up on. The you know the most popular comedy in america by accident. That's my embyonic and the popular comedy she mentioned is of course the big bang theory today. Miami's everywhere her own channel on youtube podcast devoted to mental health issues. A new sitcom titled call me cat and an upcoming movie. She wrote and directed starring candice. Bergen in dustin hoffman. And of course when she was in academia she got a phd in neuro science. So we had a lot to talk about. This is going to be so much fun to talk because we. I think we have a lot in common. We're we're both actors. We both right both interested in science and your middle name is higher right. yes my wife. Arlene middle name is clara. That's lovely at night. Yes and when. I when she calls me from the other room i say bush village to alert. That's what i say to my children. You do they call you ella. Now they call me monologue. You speak by the way a lot of languages don't you. Yeah i was. I was raised with yiddish It's it's been a minute since i've had to speak it fluently but That was my mom election as we say and i was also raised with hebrew. Just you know. I grew up in a in a practicing jewish home But i learned spanish in school and kind of kept it up and then in college. I got my minor in hebrew and jewish studies involved. Two years of hebrew Both conversation on biblical. And then i did a year of yash at ucla. A whole year of well. I leaned my wife went to yiddish clashes. And when she'd come home. I'd pumper for the lessons. Yeah and so so when we be sitting at a concert waiting for the music to start. We'd write notes to each other in yiddish. It is. it's a language with its own beauty and you know obviously a culture surrounding it as well. I'm disappointed that israel downgraded it. Well they had some other agendas. You know namely to establish a jewish state with its own autonomous language so it was almost dish it was almost so i didn't know that it lost a vote and they They went with hebrew and revived in ancient language instead. Yeah that's i had no idea she. You know all kinds of things did you. you started. At what age did you start out as an actor i started professionally acting at eleven You know i was in school plays. I wasn't the kind of kid who was very like hammy or personable. I really enjoyed performing. You know. I'm sure my my therapist has a lot of theories as to why you know hiding on a stage. Felt comfortable to me at eleven But i started professionally acting at eleven. And i was cast in beaches playing the young bette midler when i was twelve That came out the week of my bought mitzvah. And then i essentially had my own television show at fourteen. Which was very strange. Plan was but yeah. It was a very very strange and fast turn of events in my life. for sure show. Did you study. Did you work with anybody to learn the now. You just did it naturally and well. I mean you know. I think that that you know make believe is is an art. That is you know the the career of of many children that playfulness and that imagination Obviously is something that is is tantamount to your childhood in many ways but No i'm embarrassed to say. I've never trained formally. I've obviously worked with an acting teacher here and there in my life but No i was not trained. And that's another thing we have in common. I never trained either very intimidated by trained actors. They know a lot of things that scare me will not always. Sometimes the training shows when the training shows. It's not successful. i think. Yeah i i. I grew up watching my father from the wings and watching burlesque comics and broadway actors. So i got. I got a a look at it and they were family friends so broad. But oh you you. You learned your acting from your natural talents and watching rabbis. I mean you know. My my dad was a drama teacher. Dramas no kidding. Yeah but he was. My parents were both english teachers by training and by crafts they were first generation americans. And so you know. My love for theatrics. I like to say you know came from my crazy. Parents sue constantly. You know they. They were their own routine. You know as where my grandparents had one set of grandparents who didn't really speak english and they were hilarious and my my more. American grandparents were also hilarious. So you know. In like radio days depicted there was just a lot of color and and insanity and beauty to being kind of an immigrant family in america. You know and i think even though i'm younger than a lot of people Who had that experience that that really is my experience. You know my grandparents fled eastern europe and I grew up with that kind of sceptre hanging over us and we used to say if you don't laugh you'll cry so there was a lot of comedy in my life. And i wanna say a lot of lying but a lot of bending of the truth and i guess i learned to mimic that you remind me the importance of laughter which is so interesting to me. One time i was sitting next to visa until at dinner and a man came up to the table and shed division title. Remember me and they both went silent and tears started to come down reason tolls face. They had not seen each other since they were in a concentration camp together allow now before the man came to the table. These until who loves loves jokes had launched into a funny long funny story and the guy interrupted the joke midway after demand left fees until turn to still with tears coming down his face and finish the joke. That's amazing that that to me is the spirit of surviving surviving. No matter what the show does go on you didn't study acting but you sure did study. How did you come to the conclusion that you wanted to go back to school after you had already starred in the television series. Yeah so i. I was on the show blossom for five years i was fourteen. Nineteen and You know as. I hope you can tell by the way i described how that came about. This felt like a very accidental fame. That i kind of wandered into you know when i started acting. Nobody looked like me on tv. You know i couldn't get commercial jobs. The parts that i got were for you know what we're called character roles for you know character actors so the notion that someone would make tv show with me in. It was extremely far from my consciousness and to be honest when it happened it was very overwhelming. Because what was always interesting to me was performing and you know getting it right you know getting it right and moving onto the next scene so all the other leg stuff that came with it. That's that wasn't really what was holding me in the industry. You know the fame or the money or this that. That wasn't what i craved. You know i. I was the grandchild of immigrants. I was supposed to go to college. And so that's what i did. It's what i wanted to do I also worked with woody allen just before a blossom ended so at that time in my career. I was kinda like well. I've done all the things that i thought i should do in college ready ready to retire in nineteen because feeling like i'm tired. You know so fallen in love with science as as many people do. I had a wonderful A wonderful tutor. And she inspired me and gave me the confidence to believe. I could study science even though it didn't come naturally to me and so i went to ucla. I stayed close to home and Yeah i was away from the industry for about twelve years. I did a couple episodes of curb your enthusiasm in there and auditioned for some stuff here and there but I was really happy kind of being in the in the real world you know. I was sure i was recognizable. But once you're in science classes and everybody's getting ready to go to medical school they don't care who you are. They just care if you're gonna get a better grade than them on the chemistry. It's have you know. Knock off their place in med medical line. So you know. I ended up getting married. We had two kids. We had our first son in grad school. And my second son. I had after grad school So i had a whole other life. You've got a phd in neuroscience. What how did you gravitate and neuroscience and that particular branch with it that you did. Yeah i mean. I i originally was really fascinated with with biology and with dna. But you know to be honest once once. I took one of my first introductory classes at ucla and We learned about the neuron I literally had a moment where i said. This is the level of understanding of the universe. I wanna have you know the the electrical properties of of the cell and just everything about that. The fact that neuroscience is you know the science that explains consciousness and speech and Degenerative conditions like it was just. It was all the things about the universe that i wanted to understand at that level So i ended up studying obsessive compulsive disorder in In a group of patients with product really syndrome not to genetic syndrome. I'm that affects the hypothalamus. Which is about in the middle of the brain. You know at one point. I knew what the hypothalamus was there for. But i forget what my knowledge is like on a merry go round. I need to come around again every once in a while. Yeah the hypothyroidism is attached to the pituitary gland which most people think of because that's like puberty one So the hypoth- alum is controls hunger. It controls knowing when you're full and when you're not full and it controls other aspects of homeostasis keeping the body temperature regulated and things like that and also it is very important for things like puberty and those hormone secretions and those might be involved in obsessive compulsive disorder so i studied oxytocin and vast suppressant and those are kind of like oxytocin. The feel good hormone. It's the one that helps with labor and and things like that and also orgasm And so some of those hormones may also play a role in obsessive compulsive disorder and so mine was a pilot. Study as part of my thesis. Did you think that you were going to never go back to acting. How did you think about the future. Yeah i really thought. I enjoyed being a research. Professor was what i thought i would do. You know i had. I had been teaching for for years as a as a graduate student I i was enjoying a relatively kind of quiet and anonymous life. Nobody cared what i looked like. Or you know if i wanted to put some streaks in my hair that we're crazy color no one was telling me i couldn't and you know to be honest. The world of academia is not without complexity and ego and a lot of the things that we have in the industry but Yeah i i was really enjoying my life. And you know was very Very excited to have children and be home with them. You know i actually left academia to be home with my children meaning. I got my doctorate And then did not take a post doc position and eventually that led to me returning to acting because i was running out of health insurance. That's the true show showbiz what you fall back on the sag after health plans. Pretty darn good so you couple jobs here and there i had a. I had an infant and toddler. I was teaching to make ends meet. I did not have a fortune. You know waiting for me. People did not make a lot of money like they do now in the nineties especially teenage actors you know. It was a very different world. We didn't have endorsements and publicity stuff and you know. I was just living my life and you know once i was cast on the big bang theory and that became my full time. Job at definitely changed my schedule and you know how sitcom life is that became you know for for nine years. That's the place that i went to work after literally. Just trying to get insurance. I ended up on the. You know the most popular comedy in america by accident. You know and then. I kind of woke up nine years later and you know i have you know i have now. I have an almost sixteen year old and adjust thirteen year old and You know a lot of important years of my life have been spent on the set and that's really amazing. Do you children watch the show. Have they seen the show now. It's funny they. When i started on big bang theory They were in my opinion too young to be watching or pretty conservative over here in terms of what kids see. Now they've seen some episodes of the show and working on now which is called. Call me cat for fox But you know they they think of me as mom and i guess that's pretty appropriate. They're they're teenagers now right. Yeah so as a neuroscientist. Can you confirm for me. The teenagers are their minds are controlled from outer space. Then definitely their own breed. I'm grateful for my my studies. Because i do think it gives me a lot of compassion schedule. That's the hypothetical amos. Work fell but mostly you know. I'm grateful that they're being raised in a time when you know they're being encouraged to be to be sensitive into communicative and You know that's a lot of what i try and pass on to them. I guess this feels like an appropriate time to tell you that the way i i knew who you were i was born in nineteen seventy five and there's an album called free to be you and me. Your voice is ingrained in my head. I know that album forwards and backwards upside down every which way and of course. I know who you are as an actor but my very first interaction with you for most of the years of my life was in teaching me that it was okay to have feelings and that there are different kinds of boys and different kinds of girls and that were all one big family and it was an incredibly important part of my childhood and my upbringing. And i've been wanting to tell you that since i was three years old. That's so nice thank you. And that of course is the brainchild of marlo thomas. Who was so so smart real thinker real mover in the feminist movement. Yes i mean that. That album changed so many lives. And as i said. I i can imitate you better than you. You know. what's interesting. Is that albums still continues to be listened to and known by young people. Jahmai my grandson when he was eleven by ten years ago was in Ah show at school based on free to be uni very powerful and and you know. I'm grateful that my parents had that consciousness to raise us like that And you know. It's how i try and raise my kids to view. Written two books about raising children girl. I girl and then boys. What are the exact titles. Yeah a the girls want is called girling up and the boys one is called blowing up and i wrote them more from a neuroscience perspective than from a mom perspective. But obviously there's a mixture of you know trying to explain basically wrote the book that didn't exist you know when i was a kid To help understand what happens in your body and with your hormones but also where you kind of fit you know sociologically in our culture. I i have to say you know. Our culture is changing so rapidly. Those terms feel so you know so gendered. You know exactly. We need to be very careful and so you know i. I want to acknowledge that. Of course when you were girling up or growing up what was your childhood like. I grew up in a very jewish home a very colorful home. I also grew up in a home that had a lot of mental illness. Challenges and You know my my grandparents came from very very rough. Homes has as many did in in those times and so you know my parents did the best they could. But i i like to point out a lot of the reason i started my podcast Which is called miami. Alex breakdown is to talk about mental health in ways. That will help us have a vocabulary because back then we didn't know what to call things. You know And it can be helpful. Tell me about the podcast. You it sounds What what what i've heard of. It sounds really interesting and engaging yep as entertaining as it is you're doing everything we've been talking about your breaking down the complexities of life. Yeah tell me about that. Yeah i mean honestly it it came. I mean people have been saying. Oh you should have podcast for a long time and i. I didn't really know kind of like why you would do that. I have a youtube channel. Where i make videos and talk about things that i hope people will want to hear about. You know i talk a lot about being divorced. And i talk a lot about being a public person and being a public person who has social anxiety and i talk about a lot of things But the podcast world was one that i hadn't really entered when covert hit My partner jonathan cohen. And i were realizing how much of our mental health was struggling during this period of isolation and uncertainty in my anxiety started spiking. And you know. I couldn't sleep and all these things and we kinda thought you know with all the resources that i have and all the therapy i've been in. I'm still struggling. What about people who don't have those resources and who don't even know how to name it A lot of people don't know the difference between anxiety and depression right so we started a podcast We we literally. I used to live in this house and we turned it into a podcast studio. Jonathan and i have a different guest on every week who either struggles with mental illness or has some connection to some aspect of mental wellness. And we also speak to people who are experts in the field but most people are just experts in their own journey and their own struggle. We're not looking to say this is how to cure depression. Or this is what you should do but we also do talk a lot about some of the quote alternative. Things that people can do that. Many people don't even know about that. Do impact anxiety and depression for example things as simple as exercise or having a sleeping schedule or meditation or knowing about what foods you put in your body things like that And we do. We talk to people a lot of people who are former addicts people who are sober How they stay sober. What works for them But we've been having a really good time we just had matthew mcconaughey aon. And he's a very big star so we're very excited about that when we come back from our break my mba shares with me. Another thing we have in common a certain degree of social anxiety and she talks about the cats on a new sitcom and the movie she just finished directing and the difficulty of being nuanced. The age of social media. Forget if you enjoy listening to the fascinating guests. We have unclear and vivid. He can help. Keep the flame alive by becoming a patron of the show. Clear and vivid in the all. The center for communicating. Science are both nonprofit and your patronage of clean vivid. Help support them both. He can become a patron at any level and get early access to special videos at the highest level. You can get fun in sometimes weird benefits like my recording of your personalized voicemail. Message either with courteous dignity over the rambunctious among you a message with a certain amount of attitude. Take a look at patriotair dot com slash clear and vivid patriot dot com slash clear and vivid. And thank you if you've read all the books on your bookshelves or you just realize you're probably never gonna read all those books who've been saving since college thinks cribbed with script you get instant access to millions of e books audio books magazines more you also get curated editor's picks and smart recommendations based on what you've read which makes it much easier to find that next book you're gonna love which described the world's most fascinating libraries at your fingertips for just nine ninety nine a month less than the cost of a single book. I was glad to see that script has books by my friends. Who have also been guests on this show like marlo thomas and phil donahue and carl reiner and there's an audio book of my wife are liens wonderful book. Just kids from the bronx red by two of my favorite people are lane and me right now. Script is offering our listeners of free sixty day. Trial go to try dot script dot com slash vivid for your free trial. That's tried that s. Cri be d dot com slash vivid to get sixty days of script for free. Fun is good and seriously fund is even better which is why pretty much every morning. You can find me slurping cheerios. They raised serious questions. I eat them. Would i gravitate to them if they weren't round. How did they get round. Who thought that up. But the fun doesn't then their cheerios. Those happy little os or a heart healthy food that can help. Lower cholesterol is part of a heart. Healthy diet and honey nut cheerios. Cheerios made with real. Honey they're really happy. They say if you hold the box really close to your ear and hold your breath you can hear them giggling. I don't know who actually says that. But if you wanna giggle with a healthy heart think about making cheerios. A regular part of your diet there one hundred percent whole grain oats in a happy shape. They make you smile inside and out. Be good to yourself and have fun. While you're doing it. Learn more about a heart. Healthy lifestyle at cheerios dot com and find honey nut cheerios. Wherever you shop for cereal this is clear and vivid now back to my conversation with my mba as a socially anxious person myself. I asked her about her own experience in social settings. You know the truth is when it comes to social events. I i am. You know my answer is always. I don't wanna go. There are certain things you know that that we do have to go to. And you know. I've been nominated for four emmys and if i could have stayed home i would have so i try and build as much security around it as possible for me that means not wearing. I know the sounds silly but not wearing an impossible dress. That makes me uncomfortable. Meaning trying to create as much comfort as i can. You know. I don't starve myself. I don't add to the anxiety by also saying i need to lose ten pounds or anything like that Having a good buddy to go with is important. You know whether that's my partner or a close friend who knows me and who isn't going to say this is amazing. Let's stay all night I would never want to be perceived as aloof or cold. But i also know that i do leave events early and it's not because i don't respect the event or want to be there. It's because a certain amount of stimulation is enough. And i start feeling really really uncomfortable. And it's at a certain point it's best that leaves you know w- event and i walk into a room. And there are a hundred people milling around drinking and eating shrimp. I get so panicked. I talked to the first person next to me. And i've often talked to a waiter for a half an hour i find a corner and whoever's closest get anyone house i'm happy against the wall it true off lower. So we got the same coping mechanisms. If i'm gonna party with you. I'm gonna talk to you because you get a look for you. You mentioned call me ken. Tell me about call me cat. I'd although you're going into your second second season which you know. We made a tv show during cova which is not easy. Just how did you do that with. No live audience and chuck laurie bread person. So i believe in a live audience. We didn't have a lot. We couldn't even have writers onset so well that may be an advantage. It's because they keep taking every time you say a line change some things they need to be changed no but it was more about just the process of how we would get notes. I mean it was so disjointed it was very very difficult But we we managed. We were only shut down for a couple of weeks with a cova delay after thanksgiving And it's based on a british show called miranda which was about a very very unusual woman. Who's very very quirky. And her mother is always trying to marry her off to someone and she's just a very quirky fun independent woman so we did an american version of that. It's produced by jim. Parsons who i was on the big bang theory with him and his company And then i have a production company called sad clown productions and so we produce it together and it's about a very quirky woman who owns a cafe which is one of those places where people come to pet cats and adopt them and she's very quirky. She's got a lot of she's actually socially anxious and she's got an active imagination. We do break the fourth wall. That's something that the british show did and we wave at the end and it's a very. I think it was a really rough year for for most people. You know in some way or another and we're happy that we could provide you know some laughter and so that's that's where we are. She'll catch are involved. Cats are involved. Her name is catherine with the k. And she goes by cat And yes we we have about six to twelve cats in rotation on our set. We decided very early on. We weren't going to care about continuity so most of them are rag doll cats and just like to sit there. They're trained to basically grow up on sets so that the sounds of all of the cameras moving and the people muslim upset them and make them skittish so once. That's not a distraction for them because they're used to those sounds. They follow directions very nicely. I promise and you wrote and directed a movie that you're editing. Did with dustin hoffman and candice. bergen was. Yeah it was a really really I mean that's like a fantasy cast you know It's it is about a family that has been touched by mental illness. And there are absolutely aspects of my life and absolutely aspects of my life But yeah i wrote about a very complicated family and Dozen candidates were incredible together and I'm in post production right now. The title is intriguing at schick. They made us. Who are we talking about. Parents are talking about parents. The title is is a deliberate kind of Double meaning of know. We are what our parents literally made. You know we are all the products of our parents And we also are made by our experiences and you know the way that we The way that we're raised so you know it's not this is not a movie that i wrote to bash my family or bash people with mental illness or or bash challenging situations in families It's it really is. It's a movie about the redemptive aspects of a family that has a tremendous amount of challenges and it was a really really beautiful Process you know to write and to work on a movie like that Directing came somewhat naturally to me You know in terms of the technical aspects that i've always gravitated towards But you know it's definitely intimidating to the dustin hoffman and candice bergen. But you don't great time. I can't wait to seed. You brought up something that i'm interested in because you're right all the time you speak spontaneously on your podcast. We're in a time now. Where many things are controversial has culture. Yeah and it's very difficult to present a nuanced point of view we've lost wants is really the problem. It's really hard isn't it. Yeah as soon as you say the word that's forbidden right by somebody. Yeah they assume that your entire position and you don't have a chance to new onset up corrects. So how have you handled it. You know. I think we're all kind of muddling through Also as the parent of teenagers. I'm learning a lot about how important languages you know especially to younger people and you know i never thought that that the words male and female you know would be more complicated than mellon feature. But you know we do. We use those phrases assigned female at birth and assigned male at birth. And you know my kids. Teach me all the things. I shouldn't say i said i'm glad i'm glad i'm glad i have teenagers. Otherwise i'd never know what to say because they're constantly perfect thing. You know. I one of the things i mean. I appreciate you talking about nuance. You know. one of the reasons that i started my youtube channel with a very close friend of mine immanuel shalev is that he was noting. How much nuance was missing. And he really felt that i was uniquely positioned as a person who really is kind of somewhere in the middle of a lot of things like a bleeding heart liberal. But i'm kind of socially conservative and so you know. It pleases me in an interesting intersection and really most of my youtube content and a lot of what we do on our podcast is to try and bring out the finer points of an issue and know painting with a broad brush. Rarely works So i i try at least practice what i preach. You apparently can't be too careful and you know you can never be when speaking off the cuff. I think it's still important for us. Always to remember someone is listening. Boy i think show to. Especially if you're sitting in front of a microphone abused. Somebody might be listening. Yeah but and what are they thinking. What are they feel. You know you can get worked up and it's yeah it's very difficult. We are living in very very difficult times in in that in that sense but you must be successful at it because i remember reading than one response one comment to a tweeter. Chew of yours where where the people said. I don't agree with you. But i really respect a thoughtful. You were right about what you said. Yeah that that's a very very high compliment. i remember. I did a video about open relationships you know at this is alan like two people are married and live as if i love that definition. Cher album to be married. Some dating relationships are open related. And i did this video saying. I don't understand this like what what a lot of people responded and i actually got some really interesting feedback from some therapists and therapists who specialize in these relationships. And i did a second video called. I was wrong about open relationships. And what i didn't do as capitulate and say oh you're right. Everything's great if you pick on me. I'll back down. What i said was some of my facts and terminology were incorrect. And for that. I i am very sorry. It still is not what i would choose but i would not want to offend someone and i don't wanna be incorrect in my assessment. And it's like it's one of my high yesterday viewed videos because people love when people are on. You know it's interesting when you were talking about your movie. I was tempted to ask. But i don't want to give away your ending. I was tempted to ask. If there's reconciliation. Yes at the end. And that's what you're talking about now. Yeah is reconciliation. Somebody you don't agree with has spoken in a way that you can feel some sense of respect and warmth toward shore and still not. Still not agree. Well that's that's again for as a mom of young kids. I can see. They're not they don't see that in our culture what they see as wrong me. You're dead to me and you should never be allowed to work again. You know or. I mean even with the former president you know that we had like what they saw was a lot of a lot of hyperbolic thinking you know a lot of black and white thinking and you know the truth is no matter what party you vote for. Don't vote for. It's it is always important for us to see that gray. It's always there. There is not an exception to the head. And i think that notion of reconciliation is an interesting one because in art in plays and worries the idea that there can be reconciliation. And that it's one of the most in my opinion one of the most affecting moments in any play where one side doesn't win over the other. They reconcile right. It's there's a freeing feeling in that. And i think that's what you're moving toward in your work and it's what i moved toward in my work. Thank you. I look forward will thank thank you. I'm really glad we had. We're coming to the end of our time. But i've really enjoyed exploring this stuff with you. I mean this is like this is a fantasy conversation for me. Like i'm talking to someone that i think like. I said your voice. It's like in my brain but no it's a tremendous tremendous honor to get to speak to you. I mean it's it's absolutely incredible. Well thank you know before we end each show. We do seven quick questions. Okay which another not threatening. And they're not embarrassing but they're roughly about communication. Okay some some of them in a strange way. What do you wish you really understood. my cat i have a close renders mathmetician and his answer was my dog. Murray okay how do you tell someone. They have their facts wrong. You say you might be right. Edward r murrow. I read when he would get a letter of praise or letter of criticism sent out the same reply. Which was you might be right. That's amazing it's pretty good okay next question. What's strangest question anyone has ever asked you. I've gotten some real doozies. Someone's asked me. If i know fred savage's brother. This was a very strange question. Because i i used to get asked all the time. Do this celebrity. Do you know that celebrity. But this is many years ago and the question was do you know savages brother not to you know fred. Savage is kind of a funny one. There were trying not to be starstruck. So how do you stop a compulsive talker. It's a. I'm sorry. I'm not available for this conversation right now. That's interesting that's pretty. Frank it's good. Let's say you're sitting at a dinner table next to someone you don't know. How do you start up a genuine real conversation with the person you're sliding out of the frame already feeling awkward. I don't where are you from. Where are you from. And i'm very interested where people are from. I've been to a lot of states in this country. And i'm one of those like annoying people who has lots of toys about everything so wherever you're from i'll find something interesting to keep the conversation going about so you become you become. The person can't stop talking. Yes what gives you confidence. Oh gosh therapy sessions. Okay go take that as a good answer last question. What book changed your life. Oh wow i mean many books. Say hold on. I will say i'm looking around because i have a lot of my favorite books here There's a book it's right over here. It's called in an unspoken voice. It's by peter levin and it's a book about trauma and the body and it was given to me about ten years ago by the gentleman that it took me eight years to start dating so my current partner gave me that book. 'cause we knew each other and we're friends and eight years later out of the blue. I said remember that book we started dating. Wow that did change. that's great. Well visit been so much fun. Thank what an honor. I cannot wait to call my mother and tell her everything and You know your mother's brother. She oh i was going to say say hello to her brother. Thank you so much as amazing. great bye. Bye has been clear vivid. at least i hope so. My thanks to the sponsor of this podcast and to all of you. Who support our show on patriotic. You keep clear and vivid up and running. And after we pay expenses whatever's leftover goes to the all the santa for communicating science at stony brook university. So your support is contributing to the communication of science. Were very grateful. My embolic new sitcom call me. Cat has been renewed by fox for a second season. Her youtube channel has over a million subscribers and her podcast focusing on mental health is called my mba. alex breakdown. The movie she wrote and directed called as sick as they made us stars. Dustin hoffman and candice bergen and is now in post production and all that is more than enough for anyone not named my mba alec. She's also of course for the next few months. Alternating is the host of jeopardy. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham chedda with help from our associate producer. Jeanne shaheen are sound engineers. eric. Von and our publicist is sarah hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple podcast stitcher or wherever you like to listen a series of conversations. I talk with my friend. Roger rosenblatt roger exceptionally fine writer whether he's writing novels plays essays or love notes to existence. He's funny indeed often at the same time. I wondered how he connects with what stirs him as a writer. What gets him writing. My most recent book is called cold moon and the cold moon of the year is the last moon of the year in anticipates the winter solstice. One night i was visiting in new jersey and i looked at it looked over. The ocean and to my left was the moon. This beautiful moon rising over the c shedding its light on the sea and reflected in the waves and the waves almost like an audience applauding. And we're little people doing little things and suddenly there's this bigness in front of us and i thought well i'm coming to the end of my life. I'm in the clips years of my life. What is important to me. What is important to me that i have learned and it came to three simple things. Life love and responsibility. And so i wrote goldman on life love and responsibility. Roger rosenblatt next time on clear and vivid for more details about clear and vivid into sign up for my newsletter. Please visit allen. All dot com and you can also find us on facebook and instagram at clear and vivid and i'm on twitter at alan alda. Thanks for listening bye bye.

ucla starring candice Arlene middle dustin hoffman obsessive compulsive disorder genetic syndrome marlo thomas youtube america alan alda Jahmai depression jonathan cohen bette midler Bergen academia woody allen chuck laurie Miami
Irineu Toledo conversa com Prof Marins

Feliz Dia Novo

1:17:11 hr | 5 months ago

Irineu Toledo conversa com Prof Marins

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