6 Episode results for "Sarah Caney"
Episode 86: houseplant styling with Rob Stacewicz
"They. This is on the ledge podcast. And I am your host Jane Perron, I like to think of myself with the Sarah caney of house plants, leaving no stone unturned in pursuit of information about why your cactus died. A few weeks back traveled to south London and the home of rock stack of its who lives in a Victorian terraced home stuff to the Donald with gorgeous house plants. He gives me a tour and explains why companion planting really works for house plants. I've also been thinking and planning for the solo and decided to break up some of the information into bite size advice and drop it into a series of episodes to help you get your ducks in a row ready for sewing over the next few weeks. So in next week's episode. I'm going to be looking at where to buy your seed. I've got lots of suggestions. But if you do have any good sources than do, let me know in the coming weeks. So I can add that in thanks to Rebecca and Cody for becoming ledge ends this week and to Beth and Jennifer who've become crazy plunk people. They're all helping me reach my target of one hundred patrons in time for my hundred episode. That's just seven more to go. Oh, and once I reached that target hopefully, well before my hundreds show all of my patrons will be getting an exclusive digital art word. If you want more details of how to become a patron just visit Jane Perron dot com where you're find my show notes. Enough housekeeping. It's time to get on with the show you will recognize robe stack of its is voice because he did have a little cameo in. James Wong episode. And then we heard from him again in my life show from the alright chess urban garden show without his Fowler. Rob is a garden designer and a master of horticulture. So this guy really knows his stuff. I was so intrigued by some of the stuff that rope had to say that I knew I had to visit him home and see some of his plants in the flesh after a very blustery walk from the station. I ended up ropes gorgeous house king to have a look around. And he was kind enough to show me all of his beautiful plants. The interview splits into two parts there's a tour to start with then we'll break for our question of the week and come back for all visionary talk about the future of house plants in part to as always pleased. You click onto Jay. Perron dot com. While you're listening to check out the show notes where you'll see lots of lovely photos of robes interior, and his plots and also names for all the plots that we mentioned in the show, and as usual the interview starts with me getting a little bit over-excited. This is so cool. Versing joy is your love each Lonza display. Is. Corridas in towards that in the client's golden too. I thought will make perfect. Display for my f- loans. But then of course, I didn't get round steering that just so I just had this Bronx around. But then so themselves, quite happily fusing. The Reed says a booth. Yeah. That's really that's really good idea. If this is. Lancia Kariya thing with is sent his if he can get in this. Very. Oh, yes. Sweetly? Same small is card. Quite get to. Dangerous poking. But that's what I think he can just kind of. Hidden delights oftentimes things that the might be looking appearance. Let's say why shows rather than having putz, I just some window boxes. All vendors have raised once of them. This is a lovely. This is a lovely stone since. Not sure if it's only what actually it might be specis. They used to make true. That's true. Yeah. These like the perfect size because they really the. Yeah. Quite long as well. And if you look at the big Windies Victorian win days that I think they used to make them to fit just alone. Yeah. The small up here with some trading today is and not try. This county is. Grinds? She's about. So yeah. A few different plots. SEO of Burmese with silvery leaves? Glueck Phil, I think is. Could align with land. Doc peak towards another three SEO that's free at CEA for stereo regret. As one another. Mirrors. What's the fern on the end there? Good question. Very very hard on. Will says. Yeah. But the thing is because lots of fans will gray quickly from spoils. The supplies just grace of just of random mix. Put them into like a tray of mixed firms. Come in from Holland's, and you knew what could be. Yeah. I guess that's good though. Because you might find something really rare unusual. You know, you defense quite quite a thing that you would never expect. But. So it's good. Even the smallest. Nursery, you'll always find something. So the bit unusual. Yeah. That's true. I've had happened to me a few times recently where I found something is I found a pilot micro pilot microfilmed the Tillery plant in stuffed in trae over the plants, and yeah, had several people actually managed to kill that now because I did an ex I did an experiment. Putting in a in a trough with things which wasn't very happy with magic you about. Fortunately, I now need to get some cuttings back of the person. I gave cuttings. But yeah, that is a good thing to be able to do. And I guess that's where your eye comes into spotting unusual thing. The other thing is I. One thing that I've been sort of moving away from his just going to the rarin unusual votes. I'm coming back around again to to the basics and going back to plants just very easy to grow in and difficult to kill. I'm just trying to use them in different ways. So you in this part of just hit by the by the big win days. I've painted the wools this. So the tail. And it just wanted to. I think it sets the product of quite nicely. But I just want to try to play with the background kind of just put some. Coming plants in front. Of. The lexus. Just in under this Cantey poem, and then pay and sort of. Enough relapses say common, but then I planted these is and. This is near genius. Well. Can you see this one? Like black. Yes, quite amazing. The plug can develop such a dog Khalif I just wanted to the greens and that black stripes of the free ACEA. Spendings and hieroglyphics. And this goes back to what you were talking about when we're James Wong's in. You've got a big part with lots of things planted in it, and they're all benefiting from the micro-climates and presumably don't need a lot of watering because you've got a good volume of yards in there. So it's quite making it quite maintenance. And then is how yes. So you've got that doing its thing. That's like the canopy layer forest. Forest floor in this one large parts is full of. In these for millions as well, which I think is quite pleasing. And of course, this hires a home in the Victorian because. Traditional. Yeah. This is where it should be. Exactly. Grow light in this large. Just just just a lamp. You know, it's nice to have lighting the parliamentary. But that was just gives a bit more light to the for millions. Another of this kind of music, this is such popular plot. Now, isn't it? I have heard from from. From northern golden center. Poor holt. He told me that this is one of the easiest of the family to the Coster. And I have to say mine is waste more than this. It does seem to be quite easy just because these amazing patents on the leaves. Which? When you look up places like this millions of little rectangles. Yeah. It's all code or something. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It does seem to be relatively simple to look after relative to the families legendary trickiness into wealth. Seem to be a tough one. Just quite like that combination of the like the dog green. And then the lighter green and then against the teal background on the wool their sort of quiet goods convinced take your like Farrow and full. Yes. Take all. All. A funny name. I can remember was ever that means that. It's a good cut of of changes depending on the lights. Official lights. It's much green. And in next to the window here. It's a bit more of a Bluey color. But yeah, I have this co theater next to you. That's Muzy sounds a little bit like Zeke. And this is. Hieroglyphic? Oh, which I think. The links and with the patterning on the on the leaves of like hieroglyphics. Yeah. Yeah. Mating leave to go with a bit of a pass and leave sometimes. Yeah. Now, that's repeat for especially against the plane, but complex leave of the how is failure. And the nice deep green. Did you did you bought by this mature plot behind it for many years? Is there a few months ago, but this was an EBay purchase? And an EBay purchase where I just had to collect it from about five minutes away is ideal and saying. Been grain for number of years. So I knew that I was guessing plant that was really climatize to. To indoor conditions that they bring Eva from Harman's always of really really struggling. So the stretched out. Tend to growth that's about ready to be kind of exposed to draw air and then to get. This one's tough one. Scott this nice to leave say dark green. But then the new is. More. Apple green middle green just coming through. So would you recommend that as a way of buying plots? Keeping it all out and things like Craigslist and EBay mature plants the being possibly little bit neglected. Somebody works rid will not those ways neglected sometimes they just outgrew space. This was growing in someone's quit small from bream, and it was taking about of the room. So I think of doing them favor in their eyes. And can I ask what you paid for? It was pounds. Pretty good. All you pay for that like from a nursery. But from a nursery, it's gets plant. Out. Physical. Tito. Yeah. Goodbye. Then I guess as long as you conjecture over make sure you're not bringing in major pest poplars. Yeah. I guess few pests of. Washing plants down. I sometimes take plants into the shower and gives the Michelle it's just the voice any of that. Just keeping an eye on things. Yeah. Well, that was a good point by the covet iota. You gotta peel on these local auction sites and things for good plots. I yeah, I've mostly live at tends to be people selling like, very dead looking. I'm not happy looking face. But for things in case and the interesting come up, and it made me things to be people selling on the grandmothers cactus collection, which is kind of covered in media, bog or something. Yeah. Half dead. And you think they won't two hundred pounds for I think that's generally people don't have very much of an idea of what house plants of worth or what? So it does tend to be get a ballgame or it's ridiculous overprice fairies just like in the trade in some garden. Centres you'll pay huge amounts for exactly the same clauses in another one. Nursery or wherever. It's difficult. And then if you go to places like. We've got Columbia road flower markets, which you sort of think, oh, it's cheap. And there's really busy here. Found in garden centres nurseries of same price just sort of. I guess it's just shopping around. Depends. There's a plot that you've really wants. And you just it's best to go for what the market will tolerate. What y'all tolerate gets? Let's talk about this table of. Well, it's got to go on it. I'm not sure what the other plant is or the other two plants are tell me about these ones. So you're not sure what this leafy thing is given that. But I think it looks like a parental. I think it looks like what I've got which is pepper Mia bang grow honor. But I could be wrong. That's what I was. So mynas. Looks very similar to that with the very very small round leaves. But that may be I remember googling coming out with basically, no results. So wanna be is that one that these I've seen that in pain? Boss gets. I don't know quite lucidly. Has this dream? Anyway, this is. Cycads? And more specifically its macro. Microbes Amyot is. Really really elegance. Mike heads that has leaves this like furthers, their really really very fine. They look like sort of disliked lots of cycads like prostate. This is physically fine and elegance and then. Caroline. And jury. John's which. Sort of made it come back over the winter months. I didn't care because I heard it by the window. Hair love summer. So they've got to hold sprints. So I didn't realize that they actually do better during the cooler times of year. Nemesis this planet. Well, actually, like yours. Mine is doing well. Now, I really struggled with his plans to as a plug from debris to about eighteen months ago two years ago. But it's finally coming. Good mine is yeah, I found it really hard to keep it. Happy at first, but I've seem to found that happy medium is a beautiful Begonia and really need these. If you said what's Begonia a lot of people would say looked like bigger near toilet Shifter. I was a bit worried having this one by the windy luxuriance by the window because the little bit like cannabis. Prosecuted points. Be mistaken. I just hope that people are sensible enough. Not to seem as well. Yeah. Would hope. Yeah. I would say on trying to smoke that. Probably wouldn't do you any good whatsoever. You've got a quite a few of the classic prep. Lauds? Miranda. The second Paul that my mind's gone blank. The implant common name that we would know it by now this one this plot is driving me crazy or more specifically it system clone the one with the white ribs as opposed you read grips because everybody seems to me it's in it used missing regularly years ago. And now seems to be impossible to get hold of. I think they're selling it as Lebanon lime. Anyway, anyone has one of those contacts? But this is a wonderful plot. And all I remember this my parents having this and it being such a common plot. And it's really owning the last few years. Come back such a great law, though, isn't it it just think it's so easy and sort of? Easy to please as well. And I just think these quite incredible the patterns on. I mean, it looks fischel doesn't does draw onto plants that just look fish, which is a bit worrying, but the other thing I noticed with some of the the purple undersides, so the shimmer little or this. I mean, so the shimmer. Vin iridescence way, depending on the light. But. Of course, your installation, which was all era Desam. Iridescence in nature, the the one plants which I didn't have in this room. It's the iridescence salon. Taking a win to sort of back a little bit. But had that they like cool conditions. Bring it into the warm. Later in the spring. Let's go back on again. These miranda. Graham. Planted them around the base of my current prides enjoy which is this. Let's which. He's able to visit with at least one flower on. Have two thousand before this. And it's just on its last legs. The bulls starting to go. Weeks of interested us. Even if it doesn't have hours, the leaves, very sculptural and. Very exotic thing. I've been noticing this plant me sold a lot in garden centers with a fake talking about fake plants aflaid fake flower spikes, stock into the juvenile plant to young flower. And I wonder how many people realize whether a this is this is this part of the plot is fake and be with the people. I guess people bought them they must sell, but it's fascinating to see. But the crazy thing about is. You really have to get up close and examined that flower to be sure that is fake. So I guess I can see the appeal in that you're getting inverted commas flowering plant. I think the markets. Bill going being drug stays cacti with little store Farris, the Hella cry and flowers, or whatever they were when I first got. Started my interested in gardening. One of these things so disappointed. I realize they were fake. But I think if you're interested in. Plants gardening. Use of. Gretch lease of learn your way around marketing and. The council have all the. Covers of really of intense and much when tense than reality. So. Yeah. You do to be wary of these things. But in the same way, I can kind of see see where they're coming from. It is such a an unusual and dramatic flower. I read something about. I have to look this up. Again, it was to do with the shape of the flower the name bird of paradise. And it was kind of explain that. It's not the people seem that's supposed to be the main flowers birds head. Say well, no the bird flying bird flying. About about. Yeah. I had been guessing it wrong. Yes. Same hair say that the sort of bud is like the big and then the pedal like the crest. But actually, if you imagine that this is the point of the buds the tail and this is the beat the stems to be. Yeah. Pointing down towards the plants and the petals of the wings sort of humming birds. Yes. It makes makes sense once you visualize it perfect. When I was in Madeira recently is millions of these still it is every Browns about and all the gardens. And I didn't realize until if you weeks ago, actually why it's called the paradise. Yeah. That's same here. Same. It's amazing. How some the old your vision of competing junkies? And we talk about oil the arts, which you've got hanging up here on. I wish moms that long keep taking cuttings of mine that's part of the problem. But looking lovey in healthy. We had I had my Hoyer expert on the other week, and he did say oh grown in our something. You've got a green thumb. You're good at growing stuff because it's not that easy. Yes. But others minds to small because I keep giving away cuttings and never letting it get along. But just think it's probably the most graceful. Elegance trailing into a plant comedy think of another one this. This is nice. Not this particular one just speech. Boy joint. Can't you call on EBay? I don't know what we'll we'll be back with rob shortly. But first we've got question of the week, which comes from Stacey who appropriately enough wants to know about their bird of paradise. Stacey rights aboard a three and a half to four foot bird of paradise in a ten inch port from a local hardware store. The one pot held two large fans one solo one. Is it too crowded? Should I split them? Well, this is a bit of a perennial problem with Boeing house plants and the decision you have to make when you come to get them, home and decide exactly what's best for them. It's often the case too with things like palms, and sometimes also things like ferns oftentimes nurseries will plant more than one plant into a port. So you've got several juvenile plants all packed together in one container to give a fuller and more mature look without actually having dispend the money on mature. Which oversee take longer to get to a bigger size on their own. Really? There's two aspects to this. Stacey one is all the plant Crump together and fighting for space, which is a really good reason to think about separating them out the best way to tell is really just take the plot out of the port and have a look at the roots all the routes crammed around the side of the ball. Or is there plenty of space if they're not crammed in them. They look pretty happy. I would say that you'll find to keep those plants group together in that container. Unless of course, for a settig reasons, you want to separate them out because your off to the drama of a single specimen plant these plants grow from ROY zones under the surface. And if you want to take a mature plant and divide up the Risa, you can make more that way. But that's not what we're talking about here because this is several young plants in the same pot by the sound of it. So they should be fairly easy to separate out. Just by taking the plot out of. Part laying out on a top or node washing up bow and carefully teasing apart the root systems of the different plans and reporting separately, given what we've been talking about. With rope stock of its today, I would be tempted to maybe leave him in a clump for the moment. If the looking happy that way, there's always the option to separate them out as they grow bigger. Because of course, grow bigger, they will they'll reach between three and five foot tall in the house. Once they reach maturity, it's also worth noting that the advice is generally these plants will bloom better thorough little bit pot bound. So if you want to maximize the blooms in the minimum time, then maybe it is worth keeping those three plants together. I don't know. It's a really a personal choice thing Stacey. But that's helped do let me know what you decide and how your Strelitz is doing and just to talk about what to plant one of these in. Well, personally. I would put this in some John Innes number three with a few extra handfuls of per lights, all pumice or something similar to that to aid the drainage if you've got a question for on the ledge podcast drop me a line. It's on the ledge podcast at g mail dot com. Now back to my chat with rob. We sat on robes, very sculptor and stylish sofas to have a chance about the future of the house blonde industry and us as growers. Worry is that we're in a fad of faddish Woodhouse blown in fashion. She's gonna come crushing down gets. And it's a big worry of mine is in identity. Stay awake at night. But I'm concerned. Now, the people have gone into loving house plans. And so the say she'll media how do we keep that going? And I think lots of people will sort of copy what they see on Instagram. And so the recycle the same ideas and the same the same setups that they face growth that in and to what we end up saying is lease house bronze, but they will look the same. I mean, I said that he had I like to. Grew quite common species just because that easy growth. But when you start looking at those plants and using them in different combinations in. Different. I think plummeting in groups is always affective planting similarly coloreds plants together. Oh. Well, I think anyone green house prods for number of years. Really? It's it's it's important. They then. Great. I think experiments bit more with how the greater pounce and what they do that. Because to begin those on goods, babe. Do that anyone can buy upon pissed in nightspots. But I think people that experienced with house plants to starts. Trying to push the boundaries of bit mall and showing showing of the general public. What can be done? I mean, I've I've just done the feud simple things, but you know, I'm experimenting myself and trying to push some boundaries where possible, but for people that have. The right conditions the spaces, well, as I guess is the big issue. I'd like to see more exciting to the setups available. And I mean I've spoken to James about this as well. Because he's created these little miniature green walls that come up out of his Akwa scape. And he's credited these habitats. Not habitats. Re-creations of habitats. But really that. The possibilities endless. And I just want to see more new things and new ideas rather than the same. Punt in the pot. Saying on social media. How do we drive is not the responsibility of gardeners and grows to push for more interesting stuff? Or is it down to the suppliers to be more adventurous? How do we make that happen? I think it's not just down to the surprise. I think it's down to individuals to. To really get quite creative with things to put these eggplants onto this branche. But really you can do so much more than that sort of been done before. Like, I've seen them Pinterest. I think. So. The climate somewhere. They've strung up fluids of sensitive creates like a cousin using using chrome. Forming lands is. But I think it's using the plots that we've God's in new creative ways and maybe trying to go slightly bigger scale on things rather than. Rather than sort of pause in the corner of the room. I think you'll be nice to have these. Prompted displays with you can do anywhere now with gray lights, which LED and TC to run. So I think it's just down to the individual. If if we can shake new ways of doing things, maybe that will keep this house blunt trends going, well, let's hope so I think you ROY this endless possibilities, and it's just a question of being that little bit more adventurous, which is what is really on display in your in your home here today, and you write about the scale in that, I guess you slightly spoilt in the you've got lovely ceilings. And this is quite a large room. Then you don't need to have this many parts you Lowell if you look. Some of James's terrarium to equa scape. So quite a small scale to you can take days and scale them down scale them up depending on on your situation. But I think we have to look. The seventies was time when house pots Radi fashionable. Why I mean, we should've named why they've come back again now gained popularity, but we have to look at the technology. I mentioned lighting, but the technology available to us. Now, the punts are available to us now. And use used in in sort of more exciting ways. I think that there are sort of. Unlimited. Options variable. See let's say shall media more of that. Yeah. I think that's a very interesting observation on kind of sick of seeing the same set of ports on the same white room with with the fiddle Italy fig in the corner in Abbasi, I've said this before on the show. And I guess I guess that's the thing about Instagram is that it's very easy to see something. And just think how has to be get stuck in your mind yet that there is some innovation. One thing. I saw a lady is somewhere in Scandinavia on Instagram who has this amazing home. And she has a lot of plots more things. She did the I loved I've seen a couple now is where she's taken an old fifty s TV set taken out will the inside grown is inside in has cacti in sockets grow inside here. And I think it's so fun and clever clever way of of kind of recycling doing something different. All for these. Almonds. Yeah. I mean, I I think it's good taffy quirky elements by think it's good to. I guess this is the Gaza design have cool. It's nice to have like the the sense of style with its well, I guess the way she did it must've been quite stylish feed her. I do a little bit of a thing for the whimsical though. So probably here. Here's my my to more show. She can also I guess what do I want to try to avoid and there's nothing wrong with this. But when you go into a big hotel chain, and you see like a foia displayed house plants, I kind of want to avoid mine displays looking like that. I mean, I guess I should be aspiring tonight because usually nice healthy lovely lush. But it's just kind of slightly dead. Look a deadly word because the parents out there, but you don't sometimes feels a bit too corporate and. That's what I want to evolve. I think I think probably permanently. We should really be aiding for is that of a cross section of different styles rather than another case Instagram spoiled is that we're saying the same idea is being done over and over again as people take the same ideas and just sort of coming them. I think people should. Should just get really creative and think outside the box. I think a couple of the air would look quite good in a hotel foyer. But then other parts in a quite might of. Have you find them in? House like. Might indeed been fascinated by the revival in the old. I think it's called lava ports those German. Pots backward is a kid like to penny pick them up at a jumble sale. And I saw them the other day something popped up on Facebook for some vintage products outlet. And I'm thinking behind me fifty quid for that, you know, in the seventies was just an all of these things coming back in. Yeah. Yes. Think seventy being. Cachet being tash things in I guess, I guess I'm old enough. I can't remember the seventeen just about. Embarrassed. I was I'm seventy four so young in the seventies. But lots of things I mean, fashionably slowly years. There are some things I do wish I still had my parents house. You know, there's lots of things that now would desire would be very Zobel. Copper pans and things like that. But in fact, looking at your conscience is making me very nostalgic. They don't show making me very nostalgic for my manny's house because she had while in her spare room when I remember holding up to my ear and listening to newer to commute the. If that's a lovely. It's not got has found ops on top. And it's got a warrior in case terrarium on there. I love that book show. Well, I think the shelves of the whole thing. Of the whole thing. I that was EBay part. Spend more time on EBay. Are there are they invite each amounts? A couple of my well, my favorite too. Two things I've bought on EBay, and I think it just ties in kinds of the whole hipster thing is the hipsters of brain banks of. Retro wide. And that's the thing and that sort of the style in the room is a bit of retro of quirky stuff. Which appeals to me? I think it's a bit like the. I didn't say with the lamp drilled a hole in the base of the seventy s. Bottle garden. But that's like seventy s so the three back by the modernized. And I think that we need to take lots of ideas from the past and bring them up to up to date, and then maybe even like good like more featuring could things like with the grow lights. And that's the thing. That's like. Modern technology and technology get used to the went the future. Yeah. I like the red trae stuff I've not found the right TV to her house implants up yet. It could happen. If you'd like to hear more than your in luck. If you happen to be one of my ledge end because there's an extra leaf episode dripping now on my patriarch feed where you can hear about robes at Chris gaping and also a couple of the other plants in his living room. And do check out the show notes Jane Perot gorgeous images over of spots. That's this week's show or be back next week with more prom. Goodbye. The music you heard in. This week's episode was roll Jordan roll by the ops an instrument the boy called happy day Connor by several cooling and plantation by Jason shore. All licensed under creative Commons. CJ Perron dot com for details.
S5 E6: Searching for Justice
"Is a CBC podcast BARDA business a five obvious heading into Nano. The cut is available another or early early. This is Germany. These recordings were made more than two decades ago. When she was a little girl. The songs and public speeches on cassette tapes her mother has played them over and over and over again in the twenty years since she was murdered. Never come in and hello. I'm GonNa talk about mothers and Fathers Day. I'm a mother gives milk. DOC sings lullabies and sacrifices on eating and sleeping time to take care of the child abuse of involved. Mother's like a candle one mother sings Lola buys. She gives her a child her. Tamil culture and language now offer good advice and show us the path of the economy who else other than a mother could be more proud of the child's accomplishments and Tom Harley spectrum may dot dot of heart disease in Abby Don tiny ooh as immigrants all our parents over told us as we left everything behind for you and good education here and for for someone to leave their country to come here for to have a better life and for that to happen. It's probably like appearance neighbor and we talk about justice this time. Unfortunately it was never served. The interesting thing is the `specially when you're dealing with a young person is when you talk to the parents. They describe a person for you. You talked to the teachers. They describe a person for you. When you talk to the friends they describe a person for under three different people but this was odd. You've got the same person with this is just a nice kid. Hardworking lots of fun bright funny enjoy life. I remember the last time I saw aw my sister. I was sent home by myself with her and apparently there. She said leaving for the job so I I walked outside the door with her and then she got in. She left I'm Michelle Shepherd in this is uncover Sherman chapter six searching for Justice Justice I've never heard Cher means voice before. It's hard to imagine covering any tragedy. Stay and not finding some video or audio of the person something posted online. We're live public lives in a way we didn't twenty years ago. When I met Germany's brothers they mentioned they had their sisters voice on these cassette tapes and they kindly only offered to share them to from the lobby of the Lord. Elgin Hotel in Ottawa is full well high back leather chairs grand portrait's and marble floors. There's a busy starbucks at one end and a brightly lit restaurant at the other. It's not the perfect spot to set up for an interview. There's a hollow echo from the floors and you can't escape the music being piped in from hidden speakers but it's a central place that makes most sense to meet and case take them over the years. I stayed in touch with Sharma's dad we would email each other once in a while and I still have some of our correspondents. Here's one from two thousand and five hi Miss Michelle he wrote she would have been twenty one years old CA thesis in Carlton University St. DOING SECOND-YEAR BIOCHEMISTRY NASHES and graphic design. We never forget you say hi to your family and other staff may God bless you and long life when approached armies dad about doing the podcast he gave us his blessing which grateful for I asked if the family would take take part to record an interview to tell us about Shar meany and Howard death impacted their lives but he worried sit down interview was too difficult and I get that but after a few months I got a text from Danish. He and his brother had changed their minds. The only thing that I really wanted to say was positive so they took out of it was that there was a lot of people that help us us. The community came to the people to you know people try to help and then find out with generally with when bad things happen people get together to help nope which is really great. Both brothers are warm and gentle like their parents and very close in fact they married sisters. They live near each other and they see their parents all the time. You know the other thing like having. This conversation makes me want to go back and look at that stuff. Look at the pictures. The brothers tell me they've never talked about Charlene's death in this much detail before had one of the things that I've had always kinda struggled with having kids and telling them that I had a sister at one point so that's been like it's been weird. Cathedral gave his daughter Cher meaney as has her middle name and his four-year-old son is starting to ask about the girl in family photos that are all over his grandparents house lot of the behavior attitude. I still remember and tells me what he remembers about Germany and just there's a liquor strong a strong attitude. She has not an attitude can negative thing positive one would say that's that's what I remember. Ka Thesis in Sharm Uni were closer and he remembers the two of them ganging up on their older brother. Actually it was just telling my son couple of weeks ago. Psycho your uncle's a bully because he would like take the TV remote anywhere just changed channel to whatever you wanted and so we would always tag team against him. I don't know I mean like we were young. She was young and she was a good test. Her both brothers have difficulty recalling that time in their lives denise was seventeen when his sister disappeared my biggest this problem. It's just a lot of memory. I have no idea on the details and a lot of the things forgotten or lost somewhere. This was even younger thirteen when he lost Armenie her sitting across from him. Now I can still see some of that little boy the one who I watched sitting so quietly beside a sobbing mother definitely the same for me I mean I have. It's like a complete block remember. You're almost anything from that time. have a couple of like random very specific memories. What are what are those that well. I mean I remember the last time I saw my sister. I was at home by myself with her. She said on leaving for the job so I walked outside the door with her. She went to the press. The button I stayed stayed there talking to her and then she told me like you've reminded me to do laundry and I just said like jokingly is always doing just say no. I'm not going to do it and then I don't know what she's but she got in. She left so I wrote that I remember like during the time that she was missing like every time would be driving somewhere or be sitting in the car I would look outside and and always I can imagine oh you know what if she was like. She was great. They're driving down the highway and you'd look outside and you're like. Oh you know she's just like right there and let over like you know that would happen over and over again and then the worst one was when I went to school. I think I didn't go to school for Awhile. Eventually could feast did have to go back so at that time there was Colloton. People were collecting Boorman cards and that was like the big thing at the time so I had pokemon cards and on the first day back like my class I had put together this like binder of pokemon cards yeah that they had like all together and so it was like it was super nice coming home after school. That was the day that we found out Fisher that she was killed her. They had founder and I remember going in and in the hallway. There's like lots of shoes and the whole house was filled with people fuming. It's hard not to cry as he tells the story such a sweet gift from his Class A moment to be happy after four months of agony you can picture him hugging that binder as he comes home to show his parents only to see a hallway full of shoes and find out that his sister's remains have been found. You know the reason. She wanted to get a job because she wanted money because we went off you know so oh makes me think like well. If you were more well off maybe you wouldn't have wanted to go. Get the job and then this wouldn't happen and on the day that she went missing missing. You believe that it was the job she was going to have been arranged by tip your one hundred percent hello. Kathy says he was with Shar meany when tip it would offer her a job because I was so close to my sister like I knew I knew when she left. I knew why I she was leaving. I was there with her. When we used to go to like the swimming pool with this guy I was there. It was me and her talking to him so I was part of those conversations of him telling her. He's going to get her job so like I knew exactly why she was leaving and you exactly what you want with. Nothing else was really even remotely a question in my mind nine. He denies now that he ever took. You guys swimming yeah. Yeah we yeah totally yeah hundred percent I mean I can't tell you how many times we went with him but we definitely went uh several several times with him just the two of us in him alone also remembers thinking something else about tip aw I was young. I believe that he was a cop. Lake you know and I think he showed us a badge. One point this. This is the moment when the weight of the case against tip. It really hits me. Charlene's brother was barely a teenager when she was killed but there is no doubt in his mind that the job his sister was going to was arranged by tip tip. It has always denied giving Sharma need that job. He denied at twenty years ago and he denies it today all he did. He told me in one thousand nine hundred nine interview was give her an application for a job at the local swimming pool but he never denied knowing the kids in the building or the fact that he took Sharm meany and her brother other swimming so why is he denying it now if he's remembers that he was there and I wrote about it in that nineteen eighteen ninety nine article because Tippett told me he did talking to her brother's about tip it and how he led the kids in the building to believe if he was a cop reminds me of application police found in Sherman his bedroom the one for the fictitious Metro Search Unit one of the things that we had had we had a job application that was in her possession that we believe Stanley I go back to the interviews. I've had with Matt Krohn One of the lead detectives in Germany's case. We can't directly connect that to him but it was. If you looked at the writing on it you know there's spelling mistakes and it didn't it looked like a made up thing and yeah and and it looked like something that someone in grade four had made there was something else. Matt told us that time should of seemed more significant but we got caught up with all the other details so we gave me too the CFS and that's the center of friends sciences more or less said. We don't know what we're looking for on this but here the circumstances just whatever you can do whether it's the type of paper the type of ink font whatever information that you can develop from this and they couldn't do a lot for him and unfortunately what happened was they stored that in it's a heat that he'd act of paper activated paper. I don't know that it's the use it on on printers where the keys were actually heated and when they strike it's the heat of the key that turns the paper dark work so they stored that in a warm place and the whole thing turn black so unfortunately we lost all of that nodes She activated paper or thermal paper. Historically getting fingerprints from this type of paper was difficult because of its unique chemical makeup cup but here's the sad part in recent years. New Methods have been developed which now make it possible to lift fingerprints off that type of paper so if the application had been preserved properly. Maybe just maybe something could have been found. They found Matt again that must have been obviously a mistake and how they started then they must have known that that's the polite it answer. Yes I reached out to the center of Forensic Sciences to see if they would talk about this. They wouldn't okay. My name is Stacey. Gallant Detective Sergeant with the Toronto Police Service Stacey Gallant is the detective sergeant in charge urge of cold cases for the Toronto Police. We have over six hundred fifty current cold cases in Toronto. Cher means is one of them. She's listed as has homicide number thirty six for the year nineteen ninety nine. We don't reinvestigate cases in the cold case office. Homicides are investigated by top level investigators from start to finish by the time it becomes a cold case that really means that everything that could have been done during the case has been done and and the investigation has no more leads to follow and there's nothing left that the original investigators can do gallant confirms producer Kathleen Goal Tar something mad had mentioned that after the original nineteen ninety nine investigation the cold case squad took another look into Charlene's murder but the reinvestigation instigation in two thousand and eleven what prompted I would say new new information that came in no unfortunately between the two investigations that happened they were unable to bring it to the point where any anyone could be arrested or prosecution could be mounted although gallant won't talk about the new information which prompted the second investigation we know what coincided with Tippett's dangerous offender hearing so you have somebody in homicide. WHO's a personal interest? They don't they don't get convicted for this crime. They go on and commit a whole bunch of other crimes have very similar similar details to the one you're looking at. Can that be used to put a case forward right to the crown saying similar fact evidence can be used in certain circumstances but I don't think that in and of itself is enough to mount a prosecution against someone that's going to lead to conviction in court. Were so close in with the original homicide investigation you had so much circumstantial evidence and now you have this this. Could it be enough to hypothetically tip it over. That's not my call. That's up to the crown's office. That's up to you know a judge to decide. you know if. I think you need more than circumstantial evidence. You need more than similar fact evidence it you know without without some direct evidence. I it's very very difficult to convict someone a murder. So have you been good a long time the retired ten years ago but I didn't really require right. Paul Culver spent many years decades actually prosecuting some of Canada's most infamous murder cases I I was employed as a crown attorney and trauma for thirty five years and over the course of the time I did. I think thirty eight murder trials and everything else have related to criminal on oversaw an office of a hundred and five assistant crowns mm-hmm. We know police believe it was tippit who killed charming but it's the crown attorney. Kano's prosecutor who advises police on whether there's enough evidence to bring someone one to trial and then of course it's up to a judge or a jury to decide if he's guilty George. I had no personal involvement in this increase. I Walk Paul through armies case at the time. What we knew was that Sherman disappeared. She was on her way to a job. What we know from the witnesses is we've tracked down and I described Detective Mat- Crohn's theory and the theory was whoever had offered her this job who they believed with Stanley Tippett had offered offered this as some sort of ruse and why math thinks tip it was the one who killed her if you are the crown at the time. What would you say you needed aided that they didn't have or having described that? Do you think I'm on a risk I might have. I might have gone for it will test for Leinna. Charge is reasonable prospect of conviction. The test for finding someone guilty is proof beyond a reasonable doubt and somewhere in between you have stowaway what are the consequences of laying the charge and taking it to trial so without knowing all the details there must have been something here that and was missing typically account for his whereabouts for most of the Daesh army disappeared except for about two hours when he said his car overheated and he took a break break from cutting lawns to let it cool. I think the big holes in the case where that nobody saw them together that day could actually place them together and then the lack of forensic evidence because it was her remains were found. Four months later was a really hot summer. It was near coyotes den so there's very little that was left left with that those two factors alone enough to say there's no reasonable prospect of conviction. They could be circumstantial. SANTEUIL cases are are like putting a puzzle together. You have to get all the pieces and the part in the middle is missing then that is a problem with your proof beyond a reasonable doubt so in this case. I would think that there was a missing link that just made the police in the crown. Take Time not want to proceed beyond donned the possible lack of evidence. Matt Krohn thinks there might be another reason why the crown was apprehensive to lay charges in nineteen ninety nine. Keep Homerun Gay Pomeranian in one thousand nine hundred five he was charged with the brutal killing of nine year old Christine Jessop. He was portrayed trade as her creepy neighbor and eventually convicted of first degree murder. It would take ten years before he was exonerated. Key Palm around was grinning from ear to ear celebrating his acquittal morale has always insisted he did not kill nine year old Christine Jessop and this it's morning the courts agreed with him. A public inquiry into his wrongful conviction condemned the officers and prosecutors for their tunnel vision and single-minded belief thank you Paul Moran was the killer Christine Jessop. Actual killer has never been found. I came onto this case fresh off of leaving the Christine Jessop reinvestigation so all the sore points that we kind of got stuck with from Christine Jessop Angi Fall Marin. Were still very fresh so quite frequently when we started the investigation. You know we'd ask the team like. Is there any other explanation. Are there any other suspects. Are you know. Should we be looking at an alternative initiative theory. Should we be thinking of something else and the responses I get were like blank looks going. What are you stupid and and it was it. It was kind of overwhelmingly. All roads lead back to stand so you go through all this now. You have a case where you're worried you have perhaps the same tunnel vision and Stanley tippet the GI Palmer in like. How does that impact you. How did it impact you at the time. Oh we knew that that if we're going to put ourselves into a position where we could prosecute Stanley tepid for this that the evidence we had to have had to be that good that compelling the problems we had with that was there was no physical evidence it just wasn't there but you just think the threshold has been placed way too high because of that or think sometimes there there are triable cases and I think that part of the issue is the public has a right to hear some of these cases and I understand the the need to avoid wrongfully convicting. I think people in a in you know people say what are the things. You used to fear in your cop number. One is charging the wrong person. Police did lack forensic evidence and Cher meany told different people different things about the job she was going to on the day she disappeared those conflicting stories as could be problematic for the crown during trial and we don't know of anybody who said they saw Cher meany and Tippett together on the day she disappeared but still we'll even with these holes. The investigating officers felt they had a strong enough case and brought an extensive filed prosecutors. They decided the case wasn't winnable and whether or not jeep home ran influenced the decision. We don't know no charges were ever late. We know that using similar Miller fact evidence the details from crimes that typic- committed after Sherman he was killed is tricky and former crown attorney. Paul Culver also noted that it's generally more more difficult to prosecute a cold-case witnesses may have died or can't be found or could forget details new also have also take into account what the practical effect would be if this person has declared a dangerous offender. If you're a dangerous offender this potential for you never getting out of prison so you'd also have to look at you know what how much out and still remain from earlier on what what the practical effect would be of prosecuting this person. We asked the current chief Crown Attorney to talk to us about Charlene's case but he declined our request. West if Stanley Tippett did kill Sharma any. Does it matter if he's charged he's off. The streets declared a dangerous offender so there's a good chance home never get out of prison never be granted parole to me. I I actually I really don't care. Sharma's brothers are among those who believe tip. It was the killer this Kathies I don't care air whether he gets charged specifically for my sister. I'm quite happy not he's in jail if like he was getting tomorrow and this would make a difference. Winston jail that care more about and I wish that he was put in jail a lot sooner because he got caught against several times let go and Khanaqin they had so heavy could have been put in jail right away like in all that would have been what I would have wanted but today I don't really care and his older brother Deneche feels the same but him being in jail or not or for this case it doesn't really bother aww at all but if you get out I would it would bother me more at least for any other cases long as as long as he's not out there taking a chance on the else everyone else we talked to want armies killer to be held responsible in a court of law to me. Justice was never served for honestly. That's always high felt and I'm not this is nothing against the police or anything like that. I'm not saying they didn't do their job. I'm just saying truthfully. It was never served. I personally think it's important regardless of whether he's only in or not if if there's enough to prove that he he was part of this he asked to be made to pay the price but just to know that there is a closure in that case and you know it's solidifies it and I feel I I I as a parent I would want. I would demand matters to me. How does to all of us. I think to you too and I I want him to be accountable. I think that when we know what happened it helps us to move on and if if we don't know what has happened then we're stuck and I feel stuck and I think many of us are Macron who tried for so many years to build a case against tipping has also oh had hard time letting go what would that. What would that mean to you. If for some reason he now gets put on trial and hey when I retired I found myself apologizing to the Internet and then Deville family that we never we never solve this. We never resolve this issue for them and I think they deserve resolution for this which they haven't had which nobody's giving them so that would probably yeah we mean more to me than anything more you can do to Stanley tip You and we call this podcast. Cher meany because we wanted to honor her memory. I I know so much more about her today. Victims tend to be lionized in public no matter their background but everyone everyone we talked you had only beautiful memories of Scher meeting by all accounts. She really was a sweet smart kit months before we started in writing this podcast. I met with armies father and Ottawa. I couldn't believe how little had changed. He was as warm and open as he was two decades ago. I reminded him about that. Picture of Armenie the one he gave me the one of her gold. Sorry which I kept at my desk and I told him about tip it and how the article I wrote in one thousand nine hundred nine had stuck with me. It was such an unfinished story. He responded with his thoughts on reincarnation. That justice doesn't always come right away. I'm really happy to see that he's at peace as much as can be when you lose a child. I think like mccrone. I just wanted to give Sharma knees family some sort of ending to this horrible chapter in their lives Maybe there isn't one. The plot is allowed by Carnot now money money or divide your car nominee Bernardi ordeal. What are your then you uncover charlene is written produced by myself shepherd and Kathleen Goal Tar our our associate producer is Alina Gauche. Our audio producer is Mitchell Stewart. Our digital producer is Judy Chris Chris. Oh is our story. Editor are video producer is guard transcripts by Russia Shahada Vara Meta and Tara Park translations done by Cortana. Se Thirty our senior producer of see podcasts is Tanya Springer and the executive producer is our if Noorani a special thank you to Johanna Shanahan Bouillon again bore no malice Zaida Sarah Caney for advice our lawyer Daniel Stone Cecil Fernandez sees Reference Library Brian Polski Joe Levin or a Satin Jen knocks Magli Simard Justin Kaiser Length Jim Rankin Emil. Thanks so much much for listening to our series. Germany just a quick heads up. We'll be back in the coming weeks with an update to our investigation. When news of our podcast spread someone reached out to me someone who has never spoken publicly or two homicide detectives about this case I was just looking at the people crossing from him. You know and I saw sure meany who I recognized immediately. When I saw her picture on the news reports later I saw her and and a man walking across rose guy because he caught my but thing thing is I I gotTA stretch. I'm not something that I saw recently end and remembered from twenty years ago. It was something I knew right right away at pine who I'd seen and and the fact that she was subsequently murdered really like something stalking. I talked to this looking into his statement now as our police thanks again for listening ninety in my mind my aw by Likud at for more. CBC ORIGINAL PODCASTS GO C._B._C. Dot C._A. Slash original podcasts.
Inside Operation Warp Speed
"From the new. York. Times I'm Michael Barr. This is a daily. Today. To end the pandemic in the US, the White House is trying to define the timelines that have governed the development of a vaccine for decades. Is it working? My colleague Katie. Thomas on Operation Warp speed. It's Monday August seventeenth. So. When does the hunt for a current virus vaccine begin in the? United. States. The vaccine companies started working on something back in January when the genetic sequence for the virus was first published but it wasn't until later in February as it was spreading around the world and as cases were growing in the United States that the broader conversation about when can we have a vaccine really began thank you very much. Today we're meeting with the pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies the biggest in the world. So then in early March late to discuss how the federal government can accelerate the development of vaccines and therapeutic treatments. For the corona virus. President trump met with several executives from drug companies, big vaccine manufacturers when you can have the vaccine. To have it start reducing. Now. and said, these executives told him that they were moving on a really accelerated timetable. To give the. Face last. Very soon now and then needs to be. Good, the Human Beta. Allows pick a therapeutic does to stop it face to write. With that timetable, it would take a couple of months to get into clinical trials and how long would it take? A few multiple Goo face I see you talking within a year I gotTa tell you. You're talking about two months and then it could be a year to a year and a half before we have a vaccine and by my count of year to year and a half from then would mean, we would have vaccine maybe next summer right? Some point twenty, twenty one. And it was clear that president trump wanted to see it move more quickly. Fleet if you've. GotTa make sure it works works say doesn't doesn't hurt. Thank you. Thank you. Thank. It's worth noting that year to a year and a half timeline is already extremely fast. The current record for developing a vaccine is actually four years for the mumps vaccine and can you walk me through why exactly it takes long? Well, it's a huge process. I mean I is starts out you know lab and you have scientists who are basically testing out different candidates for a vaccine and that in itself can take years and if they do get lucky and they do come up with something that could work then they need to start testing it on animals and we see if they survive and and if there's any big problems that can take months. If it passes that test, then we start human clinical trials. So, there's three phases of that. Is Phase one which is the earliest safety trial. And that can take months and then they have to evaluate the data and then only if they feel I could save, can they move onto the next phase which is face to? A larger group of people detest mainly safety and they have to analyze those results again, which I'm guessing could take months. That's right. And then only then. Do they start the biggest riskiest phase which is faced three. Thing large scale trials to really test out whether a vaccine works. And in order to do this, they have to test it out and tens of thousands of people and then they wait. Months sometimes years for how. and. So if a vaccine makes it through all of these phases and goes through lengthy analysis of the results to make sure that they didn't miss anything. Then, they submit their application to the food and Drug Administration which itself goes through a very long review process. And then the agency decides whether it will get approved. So. You're looking at a process that. Can really take a decade. I mean just listening to you. This is an exhausting process. You have to follow each and every one of these steps in order. No matter how long it takes. That's right and. One thing that stops a lot of companies from bringing their products to the finish line is something that people call the Valley of Death What's So the Valley of death is the period between a when a company has figured out a good candidate for a vaccine or even a drug, and then they have to put it through clinical trials and clinical trials phases. The three phases and those trials they're expensive. They're risky. They take a lot of coordination with hospitals and doctors around the world, and if you fail at any step in the process, you kind of have to go back to the drawing board. So that's a lot of times where products that were very promising. Basically, die. And none of this time line that you're describing would seem ideal for developing a vaccine in the middle of an urgent deadly pandemic. No. So after that March meeting when trump was pushing for the companies to even faster than what would have already been a record timeline. Top regulator at the FDA was also thinking about how to make this process go faster. and. What emerges becomes known as operation warp speed walk drive in Scott accelerating to warp one. Sir, which is a reference to star Trek because the regulator was a fan of the show. Right. Because as everyone who is at least forty years old knows. The. Ship at the center of Star Trek travels at warp speed. Yeah. That's right. I was really skeptical when he first came out because I thought it was trump just repackaging stuff that was already being done. What do you mean? Well, there's already a unit within the Department of Health and Human Services whose whole job is to give money to companies that are developing vaccines or other treatments, and to help them get through that Valley of death but would operation warp speed did was they took that idea and they just ran with it? The idea was to get more companies involved at a much bigger scale. So Congress at that point had appropriated almost ten billion dollars in funding for both vaccines and for treatments, and the hope was that that would allow the companies to shift their resources to these clinical trials to data analysis and development that they would give them a lot of cash and neck basically speed up the whole process. But what was really new under the operation warp speed plan was how they were approaching manufacturing. because. Normally, drug company isn't going to start mass producing their vaccine and tell they know that they're vaccine works and tell it's gone through all of these clinical trials and they have a pretty good idea that it's sexually gonna come onto the market. and. So the federal government had the idea to pay these companies. A lot of money to start making millions of doses had their vaccine before they even knew that it would work. But if one of them does, then you know as soon as we know that safe and effective, we will have millions of doses that are ready to go. But of course, on the flip side of that is the reality that the government will be paying companies to make millions of doses of vaccines that will. Very. Likely many of them never get used probably have to get tossed into the garbage. So they're basically taking on financial risk that the companies would never want to do on their own. In. The final piece of operation words speed is they brought in the military. Operation more speed is actually being led by two agencies, the Department of Health and Human Services, which is overseeing the science and the development of the vaccines and the Department of Defence, which has a lot of experience in logistics. And the thought here was that the military can supply a vast amount of materials quickly to different locations whether that's for the clinical trials or for manufacturing or ultimately to distribute millions of Americans So. Can you just as summarizes under operation warp speed? The government is incentivizing companies to. Try to make vaccines by giving them billions of dollars on top of that it is paying for these companies to manufacture those vaccines even before we know whether they're safe and effective so that they will be ready at a moment's notice and finally behind the scenes and surrounding all of this the United States military is basically on call to keep this process moving. Yeah. That's right. Okay. So how does it all? Go. I mean what what happens. Once all this stuff is in place and operation warp speed is unleashed. Mr Giving, just vast sums of money to a lot of different companies for the US government is planning about one point two billion to Astra Zeneca in its fights and Madeiran. Ah they got a lot of money about a half billion dollars in federal funding Johnson and Johnson has been given a boost nearly half a billion dollars to develop a covert vaccine and treatments. And then in July, the government gave the biggest amount had given out to date. This is a one point, six, billion that's billion. Dollar contract to Nova vaccine the largest up to one point six, billion dollars to a company called Novak's. This is a huge award for Novak's which is a smaller company which was notable because this is a company that had been around for more than thirty years and yet it had never in that history successfully brought a vaccine to market. Yeah Novak's is unproven. They have been trying for decades and so far have not succeeded. Back. The Michelle Obama podcast is out now on spotify. The series brings listeners inside the former first lady's most candid and personal conversations showing us what's possible when we allow ourselves to be vulnerable to open up and to focus on what matters most listened free at spotify dot com slash Michelle Obama. This is Sarah Caney coast to the serial podcast I wanNA tell you about our new show. Nice. White parents. It's reported by Hana Joffe Walt who's made some of the best most thought provoking most emotional radio stories. I've ever heard back in two thousand fifteen Hana wanted to find out what would happen inside this one public school in her neighborhood during a sudden influx of white students into a school that had barely had any white students before and then not satisfied that she fully understood what she was seeing she. Went all the way back to the founding of the school in the nineteen sixties, and then forward again up to the present day and eventually Hana realized, she could put a name to the unspoken force that kept getting in the way of making the school better white parents I've been waiting. So long to tell people about this show, and now I can finally say it go listen to nice white parents. Nice. White parents is made by Cyril Productions, New York Times Company. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. So can you why would operation or speed give up to one point six, billion dollars to Novak's this company that has never brought a vaccine to market? Well. It was surprising because. Only, a year ago, they were basically on the brink of collapse Their stock was trading so low that it risked getting delisted from the Nasdaq, they had to sell their manufacturing facility to try and raise cash, and they had to lay off a number of their employees and and so. They were really struggling heading into twenty twenty. But that's kind of the way things work in the pharmaceutical industry failures are part of the business and so when twenty twenty came around and the krona virus arrived, the got started working on a vaccine and they ultimately came up with something that they felt was pretty promising, and so that's when the government decided to give. Novak's this one point six, billion dollar award. So this seems to be working exactly as a version warp speed was designed to do, which is to give companies a big government assist so that we have as many potential vaccines. Arriving. When we need them. Yeah that's right but it also is potentially problematic. Anytime you have billions of dollars just kind of sloshing around. There's going to be questions and scrutiny and people who who WanNa know you know Howard these decisions being made and and why and the contracts that have come out have been heavily redacted. There hasn't been a lot of transparency around the process and that always raises fears about whether there are conflicts of interest. So, in the case of Novak's that question immediately came up because two of their former executives used to be the directors of the unit at the Department of Health and Human Services that gives money to companies? Before operation warp speed Novak's had. That unit for vaccine funding and had actually reached out to one of those directors about the application in a way that that director said crossed ethical lines. He felt discussing the application while the company's vaccine was being considered could violate federal law given that it could influence what was supposed to be a purely scientific review. The company has said that it did nothing wrong and had gone through the proper channels and when things weren't moving quickly enough they reached out to see how they could be moved more quickly. And questions like this around conflicts of interest have come up more broadly with operation warp speed because the person overseeing the program is a pharmaceutical industry veteran operation warp speeds chief scientists will be Dr, Moss F slowly, a world his name is Dr Monsef slowly, and he was a former board number of one of the companies that received funding Madonna, and he also holds millions of dollars in stock and another company that got government funding Glaxosmithkline where he worked for thirty years. Have never been about the money ever. He has said that he won't allow his ties to interfere with his work on operation worth speed. It's been extremely painful for me that anybody would even think that I took this job to enrich myself or my former colleagues and a government agency has reviewed the information and said that he can continue in his position. To say I have a personal compass, an ethics and people who know me personally. No that. But another reason why there's so much scrutiny around these billion dollar deals is because once companies get that label of being operation warp speed it can be very financially lucrative for them in their investors. In fact, in the case of Novak's their stocks since May has jumped nearly eight hundred percent well yeah, and that's true of many of the companies that have gotten this label they have seen their stocks surge on this. Vaccine News. Can you listen to you tell the story of of Novak's vaccine it's experience with oppression speed I feel like I'm struck by two competing impulses. The first is that. It feels admirable that the government is trying to throw caution to the wind toss aside those old timelines when it comes to a vaccine and just spend billions of dollars to save lives in the middle of his pandemic. But on the other hand, the idea of giving billions of dollars of our money taxpayer money to a bunch of private companies some without much of a track record some with complicated connections to the people granting the money that also feels kinda hairy. Yeah. I, mean, it's very much being sorted out as we speak you know. Everyone wants a vaccine people are desperate for it, and the federal government has kind of wagered in a way that this is really what it takes in order to get that. So. Could you at this point? Companies are getting office money to cross that Valley of death you described so Tell me how warp speedy is I mean how fast is it moving? Things are moving pretty quickly with the help of. Speed, the federal government has given money to seven different vaccine companies, and that's the promise of nearly eleven billion dollars. And three of those companies. And Pfizer are in those late stage trials to test whether the vaccine works. So. That's pretty impressive away. Yeah I mean so far things have gone more or less according to the most aggressive schedules that had been laid out, and one thing that federal officials have said repeatedly is that when they talk about warp speed, the speed that they're talking about is not the clinical trials themselves They say the clinical trials themselves are not being rushed what is being rushed is kind of everything on the outside you know these manufacturing deals and Analyzing the data and kind of moving those gears of bureaucracy and making them go as quickly as they possibly can. That being said, there's fears among scientists that there's x factor of president trump. We have a lot of Xi's under study. By the way, we look his urgency to approve a vaccine. Could see that a vaccine sooner than the end of the year could be much sooner these November. Oh I. Think I think in some cases? Yes. Possible before but right around that time, their fear is that he wants to prove one before his election and that he could push FDA to approve a vaccine before it's truly ready. Wouldn't hurt. Wouldn't hurt but I'm not doing doing it not for the election I want it fast because I want to save a lot of lives. And Katie is that a legitimate fear? My sense is that the food and Drug Administration, which approves drugs in the US. Does answer to the health and Human Services Secretary who does answer to the president but is it reasonable to think that the president can actually stick his finger into the approval process for a vaccine? Everyone from the FDA commissioner to others in the federal government have publicly said the FDA will look at that data and on a science based decision will make a determination as to the safety and efficacy and whether or not it will be approved. They will do guided by the science and they will follow the guidelines that they've set out for whether they will approve a vaccine or not. Historically the FDA has based their decisions on science they will do it this time also I appreciate it. Thanks for your shirt. We'll have a safe. But. The concern is whether there could be a little bit of a middle ground rather than a full-blown approval could there be an emergency use authorization where vaccine could be approved maybe for a limited group of people say frontline healthcare workers prematurely or early before it's made widely available to the public, and of course, that has already happened in the case of hydroxy. Chloroquine because just a few months ago. The FDA authorized the emergency use that as a treatment for the coronavirus and it was a drug that president trump himself constantly promoted and talked about and said, we should all be using and it turned out it didn't work well correct me if I'm wrong Katie it even presented safety risks and the FDA and the recinding that emergency authorization. That's right and so there are fears that could happen again that the FDA could be influenced by politics. You can also see the flip side though too, which is perhaps the agency could see how it didn't go so well, and could be newly determined to not make that mistake again. So Katie a quick gut check here. Just, how close are we to getting a vaccine from operation warp speed something that we could start distributing across the United States? Well. First of all, it's important to remember that a vaccine is a crucial step, but it won't mean the immediate end of the epidemic it takes time to get the vaccine to people not everyone will want to get vaccinated and it could be more effective for some people than for others. That being said, the best estimates that people inside the federal government have given is that something could be available if all goes as planned by the end of the year at the beginning of next year. Already there some promising candidates and one of the companies that has released. Some of the most promising results is actually Novak's. This company that had never really developed a vaccine before that's right. They recently released some results from their early trials and they tested the blood of the people who had been given their vaccine and they've found pretty high levels of antibodies against the corona? Virus. That doesn't really prove yet whether it works. We'll need those late stage clinical trials to really know for sure but it's really promising hint that it could work. And that's gotten. You know the scientists that we spoke to the fairly optimistic about it. Katie. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me. On Sunday The Times reported that the trump administration is working with four States California Florida Minnesota and north. Dakota. As well as the city of. Philadelphia. To develop plans for distributing and eventual corona virus vaccine. The government is not prioritizing those communities to receive the vaccine, but instead chose them because they represent different population densities and infection rates. Among, the questions that the government is trying to answer is where to store the vaccine. And what kinds of clinics should distribute it. Back. Then, guard was founded on the simple but radical idea that in investment company can succeed because it puts investors first, vanguard is client. You own their funds and the funds own vanguard, which means vanguard is built to ensure that your interests will be the priority together vanguards thirty million investors are changing the way. The World Invests Visit Vanguard, dot com, or talk to your financial adviser to learn more. Here's what else you need to know. What you are witnessing is a president of the United States was doing everything. He can to suppress the vote, make it harder for people to engage in mail in balloting. At a time when people will be putting their lives on the line by having to go out to a polling station and On Sunday, the Congressional Democrats acted to block president trump from trying to undermine the United States Postal Service and mail in vote. Something, that the president has suggested in interviews that he may seek to do. So what trump is saying is we're GONNA do everything we can, and this is me talking this is what trump and so said look house speaker, Nancy Pelosi, said that she would call members back from their annual summer recess to vote on legislation that would prevent the president from making changes to the postal service. At. The same time. House Democrats said that they would hold an emergency hearing about the postal service and would demand to hear from the postmaster general, a trump ally and donor. Democrats said that the urgency stems from a warning from the postal service sent to states recently that it may not be able to meet deadlines for delivering mail in. Ballots. That's it for the daily. I'm Michael Barr. See Tomorrow. Would you pay one hundred dollars for a six pack of Beer? Could you as climate change disrupts global agriculture? We're approaching a future where everyday items including beer will be far more expensive. Of course, beer will be the least of our problems. The economic consequences of Climate Change will make twenty twenty looks small in comparison. That's why fat tire Amber Ale is. Now America's First National carbon-neutral certifying beer. It's a good start, but it's not enough learn more and take action to solve climate change at drink sustainably dot com.
S03 Episode 06: You in the Red Shirt
"Serial season. Three is presented by ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire later during the break. You'll hear from the CEO of a company that's building a national team to keep little kids safe. He'll also learn why ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the US based on hiring sites with over one thousand reviews on trust pilot, try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash cereal. Previously on cereal. In your experience is police officer. Can you smell wrong marijuana in a bag in someone's pocket. Gosh, I'd probably put more people on probation than any other judge in this courthouse yet because I can always put them in prison later. I don't think he had anything to do with. Won't be rat. He's on your guy. Currently. He has. How can you do that? This American life in WBZ Chicago, it's cereal. One courthouse told week by week. I'm Sarah caney. I was talking to this guy Kevin forty years old. He'd been busted for giving someone at his college marijuana, cookie, you'd operated as a nice gesture really just pay one. He thought the guy understood what it was, wink, wink, but he didn't all went wrong. Kevin ended up with a felony conviction. Well, another felony conviction, the case sounded absurd. There'd been a trial over this cookie. That's funny, right? I went to talk to Kevin the cookie Baker in the hallway outside the courtroom and the Justice center right after the verdict. Not funny. He was in what my mother would call a swim. It cracking angry jokes, but also desperately upset. Half crying Kevin said he'd been a drug dealer when he was young, but he changed. He was in school volunteering in his community trying to start his own business doing well. And now this, what Kevin called felonious childish stupid nece. It got him kicked out of his college, and it also triggered a probation violation. On a case. From a few years earlier, Kevin had been just two months shy of completing that probation. He was almost done and now this, I'm sorry. I said, this is a rough day. He said, it's alright. It's alright, it's alright. I'm starting to get used to. It actually started probably six days, seven say like any Kate, but I've got roots here. There's like a bear relationship or can't get out of here in this building. The Justice system. So far in this series, we've talked a lot about the system aspect of the Justice system, how the machinery of it works or doesn't. Now for the rest of the series. We want to look at the criminal Justice system whole other way. We wanna follow people who are like Kevin people who feel like they have roots in the system who've been in it for years and who've been shaped by its machinery. Probably nothing we've reported so far would be news to them. They know it. I know it's pretentious to say this, but I keep thinking of this Russian word choose twits. It means to feel something almost sensually to the point where you can taste it, you know it in your bones. So now we're gonna follow people out of the Justice center out into the world into their normal lives. The guy we're going to start with his name is Jesse Nickerson. Back in the summer of two thousand sixteen before we got to Cleveland, there'd been a police scandal with a satisfying twist. If I'm allowed to call it that two officers had arrested, this guy Jesse Nickerson and instead of taking him back to the station, they drove to a city park, took off jesse's handcuffs. And one of the officers guy named name Dixon six foot four former linebacker in the arena football league challenge. Jesse to a fight Jesse squared off with index for a second. But then he took off ran into the woods. The officers eventually found him cuffed him. Jesse said they beat the officers. Said he hurt himself. The story made the news absolutely sick. Absolutely shocked sick now is the mayor talking to a TV reporter. This all happened in east Cleveland, not to be confused with the east side of Cleveland. East Cleveland is its own small city bordering. Cleveland seventeen thousand people. It's got its own city government and some police department, and it seemed refreshingly as if those entities were taking responsibility for what happened and swiftly, no excuses. Both officers were fired within days. The police chief referred the case to state investigators the county prosecutor's office sought criminal indictments one officer pleaded guilty to a couple of misdemeanors. The other deneen Dixon pleaded to a couple of felonies. We went to name Dixon's sentencing, the Justice center. He online our Justice, asking the public seats. That's the prosecutor actually Kilbane your. When you have somebody who's in public official, not only. Thoughts, a member of unity, but then to cover up, covered up by turning off the body, police officer, convicted for bad behavior on the job already unusual in this courthouse. And here Ashleigh, Cobain was arguing forcefully for the harshest possible punishment. She was pitching consecutive sentences, meaning the sentence for each crime would run back to back the Judge, Nancy. I invited officer Dixon to speak. And he did. He apologized. He said, I understand. I was put in a position of thority and I was entrusted with the public's trust to make a difference to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. And then he said, I had no intention of assaulting anyone. For it's difficult to hear, but he says it was a tactic I had seen done before, you know, take a guy out of cuffs and get them to stop running his mouth or whatever officer Dixon's lawyer told the court that Dixon had told him the same thing quote, which is kind of disturbing. Other than that, no one remarks on this kind of disturbing information. Just lets it go the judge sentenced to name Dixon to two years in prison, and it was over. The victim. Jessie Nickerson was not in the courtroom the day of the sentencing, but he'd been in touch with the county prosecutors. Throughout the case. He told a manual that at one point they'd given him some advice that he found kind of disturbing the prosecutor. In them. They told me they telling me to stay out of east Cleveland. Jesse said they told him remember, Dineen Dixon's got friends. They say, no, denying them. You know, they have, you know you have people stay out of east Cleveland. They like we don't wanna hear about you on happened to data is Cleveland. Usually these cases have police brutality. The ones we hear about the government responses, constipated months, sometimes years of stop-start, internal investigations, equivocating public officials officers placed on desk duty, and then it just Peters out and jesse's case there was none of that. The officers who abused him had been fired convicted and sentenced Jesse had gotten all the things. The rare things people say they want in cases like this, Jesse at one. And yet here he was on high alert this whole situation with the police. It was not over. Emmanuel. He lived in Cleveland for most of the year. We were reporting there, and this is one of the cases he began to look into manual, interviewed police and prosecutors and any interviewed Jesse Nickerson. And that interview turned into a nearly year-long adventure is too happy a word misadventure I guess a year watching Jesse negotiate the afterwards of his case, the push and pull of one man's relationship with the police in his town. Here's a manual just told me that he will solve relieved the offices who'd taken him to the park that night with black, not white if feels like if they'd been white, he probably would have gone show. The first time we met, we went over the falls till pox. He woke me free what had happened. He showed me the spot Wade hidden behind the tree, the place where he says, the officers, choked him until he blacked out. They beat me why here. And look for we, we make it to the bottom of this big hill, but he says the room down when Jesse stalls and he points at something through the trees. You see the police? Oh yes, Eva police way. Way off in the distance. Just put it a Cup, call a black Ford Explorer police in block letters down the side. Jesse had been calmly and casually, reciting details of this alleged assault, but now he's uncomfortable. That's the same truck. I was. In fact, that's the same truck I was in when they did that to, how do you know they only got one of them. It'd been almost a year since the police took him to the park and in that yet jesse's had a persistent favorite television because it feels like everybody, especially the calls, no hymns. The guy who sent opposite named Dixon to prison. White often receive this police truck. Jesse tons to me and says, I go use a witness in case anything happens. But then when we make up of a hill and get to the truck, just they just eating lunch in Japan. Who was that. Yeah, he is officer or the neighborhood. Cocoa officer of that. They had the TV doing Instagram stuff. He doesn't know this guy's real name. He says everyone calls him new news, a few months back new fame. Clevedon famous when he posted videos of himself messing around and singing and his police cruiser. Jiffy tells me new new. He's alright, Jesse. Relax a little. Jesse knows these police department and they know him partly because he's lived. There was life partly because he's been arrested a lot when we met Jesse was twenty nine. He'd spent time in prison on drug charges as well as aggravated assault and robbery. All of that happened when Jesse was in his late teens and twenties. He's had more minor run ins with police since then we'd possession traffic tickets. Nothing too serious. Anyway. He's not worried about new the that he is on the lookout full is a friend of the name. Dixon's an officer name Wilbert Nevels. He told me a story about Nevels still stressing him out. It happened about six months time. The name was out on boned awaiting trial for the incident with Jesse in the puck and Jesse run into office Nevels on the street. I was at DiPoto lays on Coventry Coventry's a big busy road Jesse and his girlfriend heading back to cough grabbing some food. When an east Cleveland police call rolled up. It was officer Nevels. I was. I was my girlfriend Ashley aid just approached the car light? Yeah, it was. It was. It was going to and he likes the how let me follow me Nevels wanted Jesse to follow him down to a quiet part of the street. Because Uma, if they could talk in private jets, he had no idea what this was about, but his girlfriend Ashley didn't like the looks of it. She was like, hell, no, but does he told Ashley missed a little people around? That's just see what he wants. So they drove down poured into a long at the end of the street and window to window police run Davies style Nevels go right to the point. Then he likes shit was. So you're going to court. Another name don't go to court owned the name Dixon. He meant in a criminal case against a name for taking Jesse. Tuva poke Nevels was tending Jesse to drop the whole thing don't show up for. I'm. I'm like shit or my art. I would. I know what to say. I was scared. He asked me what's my number. He called me later on the night when him into denying days on the phone. What did they say? He was saying, don't go to court Dixon, send a good court. He was saying that number will make sure on cooling EC Amazon, go to court on ABC as Cleveland. What did he? What? Do you mean? Cooling any? C- he said he will make sure I'm cooling EC lungs. Oughta go to court on Neville interviewed by the county prosecutor's office and he denied being on the line for that. Cool. He denied attending Jesse. Not to come the cool. He's said, Jesse, y'all him about the name. He just these number gave design and that was it. But the name did cool Jesse and Jesse says he kept cooling. It was calling me to just check on what so what's up you? Cool. Everything could how often every day, all I mean like like like once every two weeks, assign it was telling me to get to the skip out of town. Telling me all type of stuff Jesse felt like was a friend behind movies, goals, so of an unspoken or else when the county prosecutors found out about the goals, you're like, wait police officers, a cooling, you intending to drop this whole thing? Yeah, not does not sound good. They made it fun band. Jesse come into Justice center so they could mcchord him cooling to name. Prosecutors recorded to cool cools name and on these goals, the name encourage Jesse not to come to call to get out of town. You don't come and they go to dismiss the names said, Nope, locate raven. Don't these calls culminated more felony charges for the name Dixon. In addition to be avocados for taking Jesse tip Oppong to name pleaded, guilty to obstructing Justice officer, Nevels VO two names. Friend who Jesse says. I approached him about dropping the case Nevels stayed on the false. And so a year later, he's the focus of a lot of jesse's concern about mccombs Jesse was Sean Nevels had it out for him. I still have to walk around drive around out here would officer fin like I didn't tell him see every day. He mugging stare at me. He looked at me. He, he looked at me. He looked at me with the look evil, like he wanna kill me. Like, how do you see him like, where do you seem? I seem every day like. Everywhere stores be fixing fixing on the house. He rob pass like ride up and down the street all day every day. Like I seen, I seen like and every time I seen like he gives me that look like it ain't over would I also use keep him police department phone interview of novels to ask him whether we still harbored a grudge against Jesse, but the department refused to mcnichols available. Pawn of me full. Jesse might be lost person that cultured mess with. I mean, being ties to the u. east Cleveland, I'm going to pick on the guy who go to Vero and fired, who has a lawyer, and he's probably an automatic news story of anything happens to him. Why would they pick on Jesse? But then offered made all way back down to the parking lot. A Nava police carpeted, a black squad call. It turned towards us wold lays lean-to deserted LOL. Maria's standing. We both watched as a closer look. Doesn't was. That's nevels. I was suddenly aware of how a loan Jesse and I, it was the middle of the often noon and nobody was around offers a novels. Didn't speed up. It just headed towards us his face possibly hidden behind the on windshield. When he got to us Nevels made it a liberal circle around us going, maybe ten miles an hour. Nevels was a bull stocky black guy, and he didn't return off, says, reciprocate, the known. I gave him look, straight ahead. We won't even. Many drove away. Maybe it was just a coincidence he showed up maybe not. I watched Jesse shift his way back and forth one foot to the other, build a fear in his head. Listen them officers that was white. There. They, they both knew who are was they call and told him that was done. But you told me back guy at one of those guys are bad. He's like a good cop. He's a good guy. I'm saying he he good because I knowing, but these these officers good to who they working with, who they, who they out here in the field would that's what they lawyer to. I. I say he was probably about to come down here. He came right down here. He came right down here. I'm ready to lead now because I'm thinking like. He, he know my car. He know my car. He's going to try and pull you over on the way out. I don't know. I don't know. What are you gonna do it just it just scared. It scares me scares me. So you wanna get out of here. Yeah. By that point, we will both ready to get out of. Quite about a city of Cleveland because everything that happened to Jesse happened in the city, but doesn't function like a normal city. For example, when I first on reporting about these Cleveland police department, I couldn't get any official information about property crimes, finding crimes, basic stuff. I couldn't get a homicide soldiery. We've the number of size after awesome bunch of times cities. Little director told me flat out that the city's simply quote does not compile crime statistics. When all's for disciplinary records offices complaint. Some reports I was initially told by city officials department could not supply of as reckles because it had apparently destroyed them in direct violation of cities on record retention policy after much badgering and a complaint. The city coughed up disciplinary records for just three of eighty. Five offices have worked Cleveland lost two years. He's Cleveland, couldn't even give me records offices who've been publicly discipline. Nd not for sexually assaulted two women with a sex toy. He found in Nick Hajra traffic stall, not for is not novice second income on who pleaded to tax crimes after running an illegal cigar business on the side, a not for the name, Dixon who pleaded guilty to taking Jesse. Papa, no disciplinary records whatsoever. It felt like each Cleveland had given up on basic governance and not just in an administrative sense. I got the same feeling driving around the streets. Things are pretty bad there. One day a local to me down the street tears road. Reponse story apartment building Hoffa book long completely gutted, no windows like something. I am legend the Briere everywhere, and the guy was with told me, watch this pay attention right now. This point he's offered over the cub. Cub I started driving down the side. She gives us. Wow, he did this to get around the Paul holes in the street. Dozens open. I say Paul's, but really talking about craters some almost full feet wide on the Neva with schools of tire tracks from other drivers who done the same thing. I got to pay for this car broke on the street. Cleveland is point partly because of decades of this management in corruption, but also launch leave because of straight up structural racism. East Cleveland is a black city. It's ninety percent black and like many black neighborhoods and cities. It's been a victim of blockbusting white flight job loss and a collapsing tank space. But poverty rate here, it's forty, two percent. Cleveland is the poorest city in the state of Ohio. Beans were in the window name Dixon countered Jesse to fight and Jesse ran. Moth about whole thing became public. Just decided he wanted to sue the police department, hide the Loya name skull Ramsey and Scott Ramsey approached the city. The talk about that. He was applies to find these. Cleveland was very open to him to meeting with the map. And the mayor apologized for happened to Jesse, didn't try to solve peddling said what the offices did was wrong. Then Scott Ramsey says, when he in the MAG to subject of a possible lawsuit wasn't attitude that you can file suit if you want, and you can get a judgment if you want, you may get a big judgment. It's just going to go onto the stack over here that aren't getting paid being such a pool city as countless these advantages. But it does have this one advantage when a person sues you can turn your pockets inside out and show as nothing now called lose what you don't have right. Go Ramsey newbies Cleveland have insurance did not much assets. He knew the money just wasn't. Now. He told me in a normal city is it could get something like a hundred, two hundred fifty thousand dollars, but he didn't want Jesse to join the stack of Cleveland's on paid little suits and is quite stack Jasmine's unpaid of the stock in a labyrinth of appeals. So Scott Ramsey MRs v's Cleveland, skip the lawsuit. Instead they made a deal. The city cut a check for Jesse, twenty five thousand dollars and cooler today at least the lawyers cooler today, the cups on the other hand. Well, you'll see. More after the break. This is the road to hired brought to you by recruiter. We obsess over buying stuff to keep our kids safe, organic mattresses, baby food, steamers, five hundred dollar car seats. But when I talked to Jennifer Saxton the CEO of tot squad, she told me that studies show that ninety five percent of parents installed their kids carseat incorrectly, making it less effective, which made me be like why the reality is when mom is eight months pregnant, she's not going to be the one who's out there, sweating in the car, trying to like Russell with this big heavy carseat if often left a dad and we all know that dads are much less likely to read the instruction manual. No, I truly understand what ninety five percent sounds funny, but Jen told me there can be serious consequences when car seats are not installed properly. That's why she created taught squad a company that sends actual experts install tuneup and clean your kids carseat for you. They expanded from twenty to five hundred employees nationwide. Last month and Jen is still in serious hiring mode. But a little out of breath like I'm getting kicked in the lungs by this baby right now. When I talked to her, she was also nine months pregnant and had just hired a new operations manager outta I'm preparing for baby. I just have less time to focus on these types of things. And ZipRecruiter really helped me make this hire more quickly. I didn't have to spend as much time or energy as it usually would because hiring people should come with a good instruction manual to furiously. With ZipRecruiter, we were able to hire somebody almost immediately whether you need to hire one person or an entire squad. ZipRecruiter makes it officiant and easy. Try ZipRecruiter yourself for free. It's dip recruiter, dot com. Slash cereal. That's ZipRecruiter, dot com. Slash cereal. Ziprecruiter. The smartest way to hire. forming it back to Jesse. And I tell you about the case of Arnold black because it will help you understand some of what's going to happen to Jesse. And also because a case of Arnold block is crazy. I don't wanna reach for another description. It starts out crazy and then it gets more crazy. I caveat Arnold black sued is Cleveland. I read the court transcript. I interviewed has attorney. There was a trial, but east Cleveland, the defendant did not defend itself. They did not offer evidence or witnesses did not cross examined anyone. So what I'm going to tell you is one-sided which doesn't make it untrue. Everything I'm telling you now was testified to under oath in the cuyahoga county court. Common Pleas and again was not challenged by the city. Here's the story, this guy Arnold black. He's forty four at the time, his driving down Euclid avenue in the middle of east Cleveland. Nighttime, he done landscaping job near where his mother lived and had gone over to her house afterwards for dinner. Now he was heading home. He's driving his truck, a green Chevy Silverado. He's gotta quit in the back weed whacker leaf blower lawnmower and the cops pull him over one uniformed officer and a cruiser. The other officer is a detective, enormous close driving his normal car. The uniformed officer, Jonathan olery tells Arnold to get out of the truck pats him down cuffs him. They take Arnold black to the rear of his truck, sit him down on the bumper, the cop in street clothes, detective, Randy Hicks, aggressively searches the truck rips out the inside door panels in court, Arnold black testified to the following. He said, detective Hicks started asking him about drugs, and he's Cleveland, and he told him he didn't know because I don't sell drugs. I don't do drugs and I don't live in east Cleveland. He said he was looking for a kilo of cocaine, and he said to me that I wasn't in the right truck. Evidently, detective Hicks was looking. For drug dealer a green truck, but Arnold wasn't him and that annoyed Hicks. He said, you messed my night up. Arnold thought, detective hick seemed off drunk. Probably he keeps asking Arnold about drugs. Arnold is saying why you keep asking me that then why am detective Hicks punches Arnold in the face Arnold testifies that he then starts to kind of slide off the bumper officer Leary proxima, detective Hicks hits him again in the head. These were hard hits hard enough that three years later, Arnold black would need brain surgery to drain the fluid and blood from his skull, even now he can't remember things properly. His speeches slowed. He has trouble controlling his anger, his mother and fiancee, his personality is changed. The officers put him in the cruiser, take him back to the east Cleveland police department where the jail is, and they put him in a room that Arnold attorney calls a storage locker east Cleveland police called it a holding cell tomato tomato. No one can decide with this room is called, but whatever it is it is not a proper jail cell. No bed, no toilet, no window, no water. It's gonna bench, fueled lockers. The tall kind and some cleaning supplies brooms mops buckets that they lock Arnold in there. That's according to his testimony. And now the time line of all, this is a little unclear, the police in county records, say, one thing that trial transcripts has another, but if we go by the records, at least this began on a Friday night. Arnold says he could hear people talking and hollering walking around. He could hear keys. I knocked on the door and was screaming, like I told them I had to use the bathroom. I said anybody. Anybody, no one comes Arnold peas and locker. Meanwhile, his girlfriend, Erica is getting worried where is he? She was supposed to hear from him. She's calling around to friends. She calls the hospital. Sunday comes Arnold, says an officer, opens a door to the room and asks him, does anyone know you're in here? Arnold says, no, the guy says and points to the ceiling. There's a microphone up there. He says. Back, they won't pick up whispers. Then he takes his own cellphone from his back pocket. Arnold gives the guard erica's number the guard dials a phone, hands it to Arnold and tells them to make it quick. Arnold tells Erica, the cops beat me up. I'm in east, Cleveland jail, come get me. Arnold says a bit later, that same guy comes back tosses him. One of those little milk cartons from school cafeteria. Erica arrives asks to see Arnold. Now, this is according to her testimony, the cops of the reception window kind of look at each other for a while. Finally, someone says he's under investigation. You can't see him. He's under investigation. She feels like something's wrong, like they're lying to her. She calls Arnold family, Arnold brother. He took the stand at trial to Arnold. Brother says he goes to east Cleveland and they tell him Arnold in Cleveland jail drives over to Cleveland where they tell them there's no Arnold black here, and he's like, I was just, they just told me to come here. They check check again. Nope. He goes back to east Cleveland again where they again, say we don't know what to tell you. He ain't here. It's now Monday day three of the storage room. Arnold is in terrible pain from his head injuries. You can't sleep really. He's hungry in court. Arnold said that aside from that one little milk carton they gave him nothing to eat or drink. The p in the locker is stinking. He's intensely anxious. He's worthy. Cops are going to do something to Erica because he called her fills. The room is closing in on him. Finally, again, if reading the records right on day five, he's put a van and take into the county jail at the Justice center. He's held. They are a couple of days until Erica comes to get him, pays his bond, two hundred fifty bucks when she sees him walking out of the county jail. She says, his head is so swollen. He looks like he's wearing a helmet. She takes him home sometime later. Arnold gets a letter in the mail telling him he's been indicted by a grand jury for possessing crack cocaine. I was like charged with cocaine. Arnold said I never had no cocaine charge with that. In the police report officer Leary claims. He found a bag of crack under Arnold tongue. And also that he had a bag of marijuana. I'll point out that the east Cleveland detective who testified about the crack before the grand jury. Eric Jones was at that time part of a cabal of east Cleveland cops who were shaking down drug dealers, stealing their money and falsifying evidence. He's now in federal prison, but I digress. In any case, the prosecutor could see the circumstances of Arnold's arrest were shady. She'd been told about the beating. This file was going to be trouble. They dropped the charges. Arnold hires a civil rights lawyer, Bobby cello. He sues sues the city of Cleveland. He says, the police chief Ralph spots. He's officer O'Leary. He's sues detective Hicks his asking for thirty five million dollars. Bobby d cello seeks settlement from the city on behalf of Arnold. Black to cello gets much the same pitch. Scott Ramsey got when he sought a settlement for Jesse. There's only so much we can afford to tells response though, very different. Here's Bobby cello. We heard as the chief defense. Why are you doing this? We don't have any money. Don't you see poor? Don't you see where or poor cities streets aren't very good. Don't you see that we're in a state of was called financial or fiscal emergency, where the state of Ohio was running our books and has to authorize every expenditure. You can't get paid. Here's what we can do. We can give you fifty grand. Would you be happy? Fifty grand? That'd be good enough and I would respond. Let me get the straight. You guys beat up my client, put him in in the locker stores. Locker made him p there. And by the way fed him, nothing's of the carton of milk for four days and you think I'm here just for fifty grand. Really? I'm going to ask you to bear with me a little longer here because this story gets better slash worse as they prepare for trial to cello fines out. There was dash Cam footage of the arrest that shows detective hick speeding Arnold. And they also discover that that's same. Raw video was later edited by the police altered. So as not to show the beating and listen up here that the police chief and the mayor knew about it. They discovered that the Cleveland police did this all the time. In fact, they discover that nothing that happened to Arnold black during the time he was secretly in east Cleveland's custody was unusual police in east Cleveland routinely pulled people over in rough them up. That'd been the practice for decades routinely held them in jail for no reason, routinely altered evidence. The police chief routinely told officers to keep quiet about abuse to avoid. Lawsuits to cello had found out about almost all this stuff from a most unlikely source, detective, Randy Hicks, the guy who beat Arnold black Hicks. It walked off the job within days of Arnold's arrest. He said soon as he realized his bosses, we're gonna blame everything on him. He'd been at the department for about fifteen years head of the narcotics unit for six at earned commendations. He wasn't a rogue cop. He said he was doing what they'd all been taught to do, and he's Cleveland. We asked the city's law director to respond to the story. She didn't neither did officer leery or detective Hicks. Then mayor, Gary Norton did respond. He's at the characterizations from the civil trial are one thousand percent false. He said, all he knew about the dash Cam video was that quote there was a gap in the tape, unquote a gap, and he said he didn't know about the holding cell slash storage locker at the jail, which was downstairs from his office. I just didn't know. I really didn't. Then police chief, Ralph spots also called us back. He said, did, oh, there was no such culture of aggression within the police department. He said no pattern of altering evidence or of hiding abuse. Mr. spots said detective Hicks was just shifting blame for his own personal wrongdoing. The civil lawsuit drags on years. Go by, but at no point is east Cleveland ever handover discovery, not one piece of paper. Never mind the dash Cam video or personnel records or logs from the jail to cello, never even gets a police report city law director claims. She doesn't know where anything is. They simply have nothing to hand over is a grievous enough this refusal to engage that the judge finally issues a ruling saying, okay, he's Cleveland. You are now barred from introducing any evidence and trial. So we're going to have a trial, but you cannot defend yourself. You've forfeited that right? The city appeals this ruling appeal once twice. They get denied in two thousand sixteen four years after Arnold's beating and arrest. They finally go to trial and the only person who shows up for the other side. The only person is former east Cleveland, detective, Randy heck's, no city law director, no police chief, no mayor, just Randy Hicks all by himself, and he admits everything. There's this extraordinary part. Of the trial transcript in which two cello reads a long list of all the things officers in east Cleveland did and Hicks confirms it. All of it. The cello number four officer Hicks was and his fellow officers were required by chief spots to follow a custom of using violence in the city of east Cleveland, which had officers using force on civilians to compel statements from them to establish control, to instill fear in submission and to show dominance during arrests and traffic stops the judge. Is that true fix? Yes, you're on her. A jury awarded Arnold black twenty two million dollars in compensatory and punitive damages twenty two million dollar judgment victory, right? Not exactly because get this. The morning of trial about an hour and a half before it started the city's lawyer filed a notice of appeal with the Ohio supreme court. That's a notice saying, hey, we're planning on filing something with you guys. The city had assumed that the notice would stop the clock on the trial, and retroactively did an appeals court later ruled that the trial should not have gone forward with that notice pending. So now as I write this in twenty eighteen the verdict and Arnold blacks case has been overturned. Now cello is the one appealing. He's not sure if he'll prevail. You might have to retry this case. Civil lawsuits are supposed to lead to reform. That's the hope that the city will fix the problems that are costing a lot of money. We talked to eleven attorneys do civil rights cases in cuyahoga county. One attorney said, yeah, bring it. I have no problem pulling the trigger against these Cleveland, the other tenets, no way they said it's not worth it. Said one. I have a business to run said another. We heard there's no reward. We heard it's a bitch. We heard I turned out any case that comes from east Cleveland and it's heartbreaking. In other words, Arnold black is a cautionary tale which makes the cello nuts. He doesn't see it that way, and he says, black doesn't either the city hasn't paid Arnold black dime, but he has gotten quite a bit of money as a result of the lawsuit from funding company that loans plaintiffs money based on likely verdicts. That's a whole financial industry apparently. But more to the point cello says, there's now a public record of how east Cleveland was running its police department. This case, this. Verdict was national news because it went to trial. I am talking about it right now. I asked a cello, can you understand though how someone like Jesse Nickerson might not want to spend six plus years fighting the city, especially if they live there NATO said, yeah, but if a client did tell him that he'd push back with a speech that goes something like this. We are the police of the police by constitutional mandate. Thank God. This has got to be about. Do you understand what's happening? Do you understand what the lives are that are that are at stake here? It does impact us all you're the guy who snaked out, you know, got out of the way the bully for a few bucks. Could job does it did but did your community matter to you and if and if the response comes back? No, it doesn't. I don't do that. I'm duty-bound to listen to my client. I get that, but understand what's going to continue and we'll have that conversation what we were responsible about it, like with my own brother or sister, look, bro. I get it. You don't want to be in the fight, but here's what's going to happen the bullied on the streets going to do this again and again, and again, can you live in that town. If you settle for peanuts like Jesse, digicell says, you're not going to get real change. You're going to get peanuts, and now you're living in your same town along with the same people. You're scared of. Right. And that's where Jesse is. Emanuel's going to take it from here. About three weeks off. He met up in the punk. I wanted to check him Jesse to see how he was doing. See if you had any more run ins with Cleveland police. I couldn't get a hold of him, but I got through to his girlfriend Ashley. She wants into a whole thing. Something happened between Jesse and the police and the full July. The police have just see out actually said Jesse wanted to tell me about it yet a new phone. She gave me the number which I doubt immediately actually crazy. She told me that go along. A couple of days ago. How did this happen? Big inning on the full July just street food block. Ponti neighbors, put up road cones and close off the street about seventy people came out. This is the usual kids playing basketball people grilling fireworks, does he and his friends help set it up. Is potty went an old, an interview evening around midnight. Eastern police showed up. Sending fireworks about opponent is a legal is, oh, and you can't block street. So, but police said it was time to clear out. People started heading home. Jesse says he and his friends would dragging feet messing around of a boss Kabul given a Cup, some attitude when quite abruptly police officer, an older guy yelled crowd. You in red show, get the fuck out of EC. I look down my day. Only one with Jesse and some of his friends confronted v officer. Couple of people that we haven't word count on them. Now with the dog doing doing holiday about forty t is here. So we tell them like, listen to one wrong. Aww officer was like. My older fucking too. However, I'm not sure if it's such a thing as the opposite staying out of, but stepping up between east Cleveland police officer and talking like, this might be. That rush. Biz boaty can footage from free different offices. A load of is blowing dog, but I've watched it over and over holding to police football, Jesse spat on an officer, but you can't see on the body come instead. It seems if police just honed Jesse as a crowd of people, but Jesse seems to be a one they won't in the body Cam footage. You see Jesse some of his friends talking back to the police officers just isn't a real group. I one point thought it back away puts his hands near like, fine. Forget this. I'm out of here. And then one of the officers Russia's in by the other guys dunning in front of Jesse and grabs him a number of grabs Jesse to they cuff him. Drag them tools, police call. Seem frantic. The crowd of people in the street is screaming at offices. Cussing them Jewish feels good. Boileau. Get to police call. It's okay. I'll take you contel exactly what's happening. Fahd which is maybe Jesse slamming into the call dual Ben. He's screaming my my mom. Shoulder was into jesse's lying on the ground on his stomach Cristine away from his shoulder, his head almost underneath a tailpipe, and I call the no Jesse or at least jesse's name stop telling him to get up. Just. It's not clear whether is saying this. Jesse hone trying to scream away from the cops, and now trying to make sure that fact gets recorded on the body cams, whether the police goat rough trying to shove Jesse in the car, and now they're trying to cover themselves. Ten minutes later EMT's arrive may take Jesse to the hospital, or he spends the night. The next morning, Jesse wakes to find five misdemeanor tickets on the blanket over his hospital bed faded to disperse dissolve, conduct, visting, arrest, assault, and menacing. When I talk on the phone, I could hear how much she wanted to fight back, but also I have own ability film. Every time of market approach. I gotta stay. People were they hand them. That's that's how I know. I gotta I gotta appear myself alpha pair myself. That I know every time. They feel. Thanks. Yeah, I thought it was I as you see, it's not. It's not. It's not a thought. I thought I thought and his mama for 'cause I shouldn't situation I shouldn't. I shouldn't went to court and order. She goes way way you you. What do you mean you use of you? You renting it? Yeah. I'm not doing, but I'm getting. I'm getting. I feel for me off. So I regret. It feels like you don't be ends of it. You think this is going to be even if. This is this is this is the game. Jesse went to east Cleveland school house about a week later Rainman on the five judges full July house. It's just one room in these Cleveland. Smalls the whole rooms. Every city department, including police department is backed into a squall to a half story building. I called up Jesse before. Cool. Started signed the courtroom. Jesse's lawyers go Ramsey couldn't be day, but he told Jesse, no big deal speed, not guilty. Don't talk too much. Nothing is going to happen today. Jesse was in good spirits, laughing, joking. He took it in stride. One of the bailiffs told him, ripped jeans shorts had on those one going to go to the core. I gotta listen pans, they let me. Dang come in. Jessica. If you went home to change and then came back, we took all seats in kogo started the judge began to spin cases mostly small traffic tickets and stuff. I'll feel about thirty minutes so Jesse going up mount something to me down if the courtroom. It's been buzzing. So I figured he'd left to make a cool ten minutes went by any adding. Come back Ben twenty thirty. Finished still Jesse, even stranger cases never been cooled tried his phone, but it went straight to voicemail. Girlfriend Ashley. No. Also searched the whole building a ways ball rooms. The parking lot. Jesse was Noah. But why? I mean Jesse, we've is grimly history had to Nova not showing up for my game in a restaurant. So why would you show up take the time to go home and change clothes, comeback, and then leave again. I oft- around anyone I fought might know what was going on. Dicken's he'd like gold. Red sneakers on finally obey told me he's seeing Jesse courtroom. He came on court in the hallway. To all to detail his pro steel when it was target tune. And then after that, the handcuffed him took him downstairs. I don't know what charge the jar, why? So there's a bird. I know. Okay. Jesse been arrested ninety to find out why I went to police station astound woman have a window with you to tell me what have been arrested full violation of his privacy. She said, which by the way on checked, it's men's, you told me you'll have to talk to the chief of police was in? No, she said. It's later. I also different person that the same window, a young police officer I fought might be more helpful. No. He said he wasn't allowed to tell me what job is. Well, even though I was a reporter department policy again, I checked. It's not. Judges dole. Maybe they could help, but everyone was gone for the day. They left. They get. Okay. Old you is backed. It was free o'clock in the afternoon. Good afternoon officer Landau. I made a bunch of cool city over the next day. Soon basing of me, cooling as I was also did. His arraignment happened already coin to the bows just did. Was there like a bone set? We don't give that information out there. It's it should be public information right there. We don't get the information. I don't telephone. Okay, I can. I have one. Oh. I got with the heavens on the phone director. She didn't hang up on me or ignore my arguments about things being public record. She was nice of lightens didn't wanna be recorded. She did on my questions. She told me Jesse had been arrested and charged with misdemeanors, four completely different case, but we go, Jesse yelled at and intimidated an officer instead of resting Jesse, van, but police put a warrant vase, arrest. After we've been talking a couple of minutes, we ought if I could hold muttered something about bedding of details ahead, rougher papers. Off the arrest, just hit his head on the ground on the way to jail. He deliberately peed himself in the south, but Jesse been taken to the hospital for psychological evaluation. Just getting out of jail. I just let four days went by before I heard from Jesse. Again, I saw it to ask him about the arrests about what we lit told me, but Jesse Comey off. He said he didn't have time to get into that. He'd something to tell me. Listen, listen when I was in jail when I was gonna do it put me in whole, right? Ain't nothing blockers. There's no bathroom. So I'm in, I'm willing to as well. I have to be forced to use my white my half. Like I'm putting like some type of looking. I had kissed shaken locker. You've got to in what I had a piston shit in the locker room. He was telling me that police and put him in very same room on a black of Lockton. Today's. The question was, would anyone care. Next time and cereal. Serials produced by Julie Snyder manual Joshi, Ben Calhoun in me with the digital reporting by Italy's Koepke editing on this episode from IRA glass when you Dangerfield is our digital editor research and fact checking by Ben falen sound design and mixed by stone Nelson, additional production from capable linski, music clearance by Anthony. Roman suppleant is our director of operations. ZipRecruiter ads voiced by Stephanie FU. The serial staff includes Emily Thonden, Julie Whitaker, Cassie Halley, Francis Swanson, and Matt Tierney. Our music is by Adam Dorn and how Wilner with additional music for Matt McGinley. Fritz Myers, Nick, Thorburn, and west Schwartz. Our theme song is by Nick Thorburn and remixed by Adam doors support for serial comes from ZipRecruiter. Unlike many job sites, ZipRecruiter doesn't wait for candidates to find you. ZipRecruiter finds them for you, so you get qualified candidates fast, try it free at ZipRecruiter, dot com. Slash cereal. That's ZipRecruiter, dot com. Slash cereal special. Thanks this episode to Melissa. George's Ed little Eric brewer, William votary, Nancy Jameson volley Murphy. Chris link at the ACLU and Colleen Cotter legal aid society of Cleveland. Thanks also to Pandora where you can listen to serial for free. The art on our website was made by Martinez e b. He created the mural for this episode and moth studio. Did the animation. Please check it out on our website, serial podcast dot org. That's serial podcast got word where you can also sign up for our Email newsletter and be notified. When new episodes are released. Serial production of this American life and WBZ Chicago.
S03 Episode 07: The Snowball Effect
"Serial season. Three is presented by ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Later during the break, you'll hear from a minor league baseball team that needed to hire a director of fun and learn ways that recruiter is rated number one by employers in the US based on hiring sites with over one thousand reviews on trust Bislett. Try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter dot com slash cereal. Listen, listen, listen when I was a jail. They put me in wholesale, right? You ain't nothing blockers peevishly when Serio Jesse. Deterrence, and how to fix communities and all that type of stuff like I try not to I try to think of it that way can't prove guilty. They'll give you misdemeanor. You may get a big judgment is going to go onto the stack over here that aren't getting paid. Did you hear anything about? Where did not say that he felt the? From this American life WBZ, Chicago. It's cereal. One courthouse told week by week. I'm Sarah caney. After the police surprise arrested Jesse Nickerson the east Cleveland courthouse held them in jail for a few days. He set up a call with his lawyer Scott Ramsey. It was just. Hey, how you doing good? Good guys. They talked through the new misdemeanor charges Jesse picked up and also about whether jesse's feuding with the Cleveland police might lead to a lawsuit. Scott Ramsey paced around his cluttered office while Jesse filled him in explaining the arrest at the block party on the fourth of July. How he felt like the police harassed him unfairly? Shirt. Shoulder got injured how they left him at the hospital with five tickets. How many showed up in court to deal with those tickets the police arrested him again, and he says threw him in a locker room with no bathroom for two days. Door on you know. I use the bathroom the bathroom. Manual and I heard Jesse had been locked in that same room where the east Cleveland police had put Arnold black with his twenty two million dollar verdict. Without will there's jesse's lawsuit right there. No. How could that not be a giant settlement waiting to happen? But Scott Ramsey wasn't that interested in the holding cell story didn't seem outraged by it. He thought it might be hard to prove. Instead he wanted to hear more about the other thing in the fourth of July from jesse's description. It did sound like maybe the police had targeted him. Maybe that could lead to civil action. Okay. Let me let me ask questions of the thing on the the incident on the fourth. What proof? Do we have that had happened several video video Incan, and they have been young. Also, you have video from people's cameras and probably somebody cams is that what you're talking about. Scott Ramsay tells Jesse to gather video evidence fine. Witnesses seven to ten people would be good. He says preferably people without criminal records, and then he'll assess the potential for a lawsuit. As time passed it became obvious. Scott Ramsey wasn't gonna file a new lawsuit. Jesse didn't produce the evidence scar emptied asked for but also Jesse as a client was proving a slippery bet. His legal troubles seem to blossom anew every couple months, not just in east Cleveland, but in other municipalities Jesse told him annual about a case, he was especially worried about in Euclid said the cops there had pulled him over for no reason. Yes to manual to come to court with him. So he could see for himself, which as he was up against manual. Did he went with Jesse to a court date and Euclid? Here's a manual. I went to Euclid them but day Jesse was supposed to go to trial on eight challenges one traffic stole it happened. A few months back jesse's van Guilford. Ashley just give given both of them son and the baby was premature. So they were both spending a lot of time at the hospital the tests and treatment. One day Jesse bode as brothers call. So you could drive home and get cleaned up. The you could police pulled him over about nothing really tinted windows on his own a misdemeanor ticket, but just the didn't have his seat on. And he was driving about to license until that AS Roma's calm like a policy crime-scene, small amounts of we'd a scale and to open bottles of smell FIS and eight misdemeanor charges and a case in front of judge Debra lebaron. Same judge you might remember from Spence's case neponset free. We're going to talk more about NATO on this episode. But right now, I wanna tell you what happened between Jesse and judge lebaron. Since I'm stirring, twenty five minutes late this morning. Jesse nickerson? The day was a mess from the beginning. Like for one Jesse showed up late by the time. You rush into a courtroom. He was flustered and just lebaron was mad. You're well aware of this matter was set for bench trials morning. Twenty five. Cherney were here on the villa? To be Fanta just with baron, high rotation being governed from them's Jesse you've already missed a couple of cool dates to be Jesse though he's been dealing with the case against east Cleveland tops taken into the Paul so good case had dragged on laws Paul Jesse initially agreed to take a plea. And then I've lost that can insisted on a trial which delayed things more Matt trial was to happen today. And yet what was Jesse had changed his mind again a couple of days ago away. He'd hide a woman named heaven. Mccullough had notified the goal met never mind. Jesse does want to take a plea? So with Aaron cool abounds goals Jesse for being late. I venture tons to have McCullough. I hate Mr. Nixon wants to plead now. Correct. Mukalla ES honor sorry for the delay. No excuses immensely tons to Jesse. Right. Mr nickerson. No, ma'am. As in surprise. Jesse doesn't want to take advantage of spins out of control. What do you mean? No man does a and says I'm unhappy with my representation Jesse replies. Then Jesse accuses heaven McCullough of trying to pressure him to take a plea against his wishes McCullough who's standing right next to Jesse is like hang on a minute. The color tells judge abound. This is the first time she's hearing this I've been McCullough and Jesse arguing. No mention of talks at a time. It's your turn. Go ahead. Yesterday and this morning before we came in here today. He may no indication any was not comfortable taking this plea. So if he wants to continue on the trial can do so he's happy representation excuse by as I have. 'cause I have I have done all Mr. Nickerson. And if he wants to going on with this and playing games like banded. Does the baron signs of hevea? She's presided over jesse's case for seven months and doesn't seem to have a question about us focuses. But does the balanced fools to once again set another date for Jesse afterwards? Jiffy tells me he'd flipped because he was afraid that if he took the plead judge the bound was gonna throw in jail. He tells me now he's a new plan highest Ramsey win and trial. About a week later. Just he's next cool day in Euclid. I live the to want some of judge of the bounds. Ova cases. I heard from Sarah, but just the bowing was tough on weed smokers. I saw what she meant free of a case cases that morning involves someone who had the same misdemeanor drug charge. Jesse did. And just the bound was hauled on all of them when enough fullness leap in the drive thru came before does the bound grumbled about someone should come time. The state licensing board she told a high school kid, but she saw him again on the we'd charge. He was gonna throw him in adult jail jail. In comes Jesse looking like, it just rolled out of bed couldn't stop yawning, and he kept running his tongue overs. Tif like he was trying to get rid of last night's meal. He also wreaked lead. I mean wreaked okay, Jesse? And I took a couple of seats in the courtroom gallery. Whispering waited for. On the stuff going on. Jesse told me his plan for today was to plead guilty. That's right off the pissing off does lebaron by not showing up to cool men agreeing to a plea then insisting on trial, then agreeing to a plea again, Ben insisting on a trial, again just plan today was to us calls one more time unaccepta- plea deal. So what's the all? What do you want to strategy hit? What are you going to say just threw me on? Could you also drug test today? I would I to. I'm just saying this is snow right in which he offs. How often you take drugs? Right. You're going to be on us to tell. And I'm gonna tell you why I've had judges off people this quite a bit of honesty test for the Fenton's. Could you also drug test today could boss, let's do one right now. I know you couldn't pulse. I'm sorry. Speeco still Jesse who smells like his shadow would fail. The drug test tells me, no he's gonna play it straight appeal for Bassey. He thinks jobs Aban was specked fat fast forward an hour or so. And if I test you today, you're gonna be posited, right? You're not when's the last time you smoked week. Of the say two weeks three weeks. I think it's clear for your system are knows these. These. I call pasta drug test Jesse eventually admits not a good look I need to get back on the right track says meekly. Where is Ramsey social bound auks? You told me on Friday you'd have him here. Yeah. Wasn't able to make it. Jesse mumbles? Lebaron off Jesse if he's anything to say from self Jesse hav apologizing poff pleading tells does the baron about a day was pulled over about his son being born prematurely. How news driving home changes? Clothes. Does the baron is not moved. With the open containers off race in the Senate console. I didn't know that was the other car. A fruity drink. You know, what it is that I have some marijuana part? I did not. I did not. Ghost child. I was I was under stress at the time time they said that. Our stress Ben just barons talking about jesse's, driver's license suspension. How many often suspensions did you have on that day on? Nine nine of spends. I know although people walking around have multiple driver's license suspension. 's is not a tool uncommon in Ohio, which I want to talk about for one quick second hand because it's a real trap built into the Ohio criminal court system. One that judges seem to hate that snags lots of people, especially pool people who live in areas, his hot wax. I grew up in Ohio love, Ohio, but it is a terrible place to try to function without being able to drive perhaps involved for that very reason. The state is learned that revoking someone's driver's license is a great way to get attention for any number of things that's car insurance. Open warrants being lay on child support unexcused absences from school barrow moving forty different ways. You can get your license suspended in Ohio. According to VM v the Ohio view of motor vehicles one point one million. People in Ohio license suspended lost a tenth of the state, and on average for being these says people with suspension don't just have one spend they've three on average because people keepdriving it can be hard not to and every time you call driving on a suspended license. You get another suspension is an escalating series of penalties. Mandatory being the fees and fines only a payday loan company would be proud of trying to get out from under Visa's pensions. Once you've been caught in the trap is terrible business Jesse. He didn't even know how much he owed a cooled around various usable Coles added up the potential beam vehicles. And I'd say Jesse could owes much as ten thousand dollars. He told me he's tried from time to time the tend to fees paid one fine here going on a payment plan there. But he's going he'll probably never be able to civilize Bill will get a driver's license. Okay. Back to Colt in new Jesse thinking of weed is offering to be guilty to two out of eight is just lebaron accepts jesse's men. She wondered out loud whether Jesse would be a good candidate for Bachchan instead of a jail sentence conclusions of the bound comes to is. No, no, he would not. Probation officer over anything that I may order. I know like you did with the officers when they play shell under arrest. And you're kind of at the jail with the corrections officers. My conduct of ova corrections offices Jesse asks refreshes his memory. She takes a police report from jesse's arrest one. I hadn't seen. Sporting new to the jail. Do you? Remember, your lovely comments to the officers. You're racist. You and your partner. That's why they call you pigs. Fuck you nigga fuck you over and over in the car. Then at the jail, you're asking the officers in front of the corrections officers. What do you want to see him strip? Search major fucking. Wanna see my dick? It's really quite bracing to hear mid western white lady won't be N word and more in open. Cool like this thing to your fourth grade teacher Rita. Quentin Tarantino script, but judge bound is not shy. And Jesse from what I can tell is embarrassed. He looks resigned and small stuff the boundaries into him hundred dollars in fines, forty hours of community service and business suspensions of relations just about and says you've just bowl suspension number ten from the state of Ohio. Jesse to five days of jail. Jesse tilts his head back closes his eyes as a bailiff paces him in handcuffs and leads him away. I want to tell you what ended up happening with Aramis Spencer, the guy with the blunt got arrested in the hallway of his own apartment building and put in the hospital by two police officers because airmiss and Jesse obviously their experiences with the police at the hands of police are very different, and they're very different people. But in certain ways their cases echo each other the aftershocks, especially if you remember was trying to get rid of his criminal charges. So that it could file a civil lawsuit. The resisting arrest was the sticking point. He wasn't going to plead to it. The city wasn't going to drop it there at a standoff trial date was sad. And then that video came out the one that air-misses lawyer called a miracle manna from heaven only, legally speaking, of course, in every other way, the video was horrible. It showed a white Euclid. Police officer Michael AMI out the same one from illnesses case beating the crap out of a young black guy during a traffic stop seemingly without provocation the guy in the video actually videos. There are several was named Richard Hubbard the third you could see Hubbard splayed out on the asphalt officer AMI out on top of him punching him in the face with both arms, right left, right left. You see Hubbard's girlfriend at our hands, and knees slapping, the ground just a few feet away from them screaming for it to stop pretty soon. The story was in the Washington Post, the New York Post the LA times CNN, they did the same thing to me. It seems like they're going from one to another. When Aramis watched it he recognized with bitterness the beating in that video this series of moves the officers make the way officer AMI out straightaway. Tries to kick Richard Hubbard in the crotch. I I'll know maybe that's a new procedure in Euclid. Maybe they tell you to the ground new and kick you in the face entails you, and that's maybe I don't know. Maybe that's the new procedure. And you don't know. Aramis is similar Turney. Paul crystal figured, the Hubbard video would persuade the city of Euclid to drop the resisting maybe drop everything because how are you going to put an officer on the stand who's been suspended for excessive force who it turned out had had to resign from his previous job that the men are police department for lying about a traffic. Stop even wearing a crisp uniform officer AMI probably would look like a bad egg. If he testified. A few weeks. Went by Euclid did not drop the whole thing September seven twenty seventeen eras had his final pretrial date in Euclid Thursday. The trial was scheduled for Monday four days from now spirit innocous air-misses criminal attorney was running around the courthouse. Haggling over the most recent plea offer Irma's arrived with his mother Kelly. They're a little tense. Understandably. They weren't sure. What was about to happen? They've been fighting these charges for a long time nine months, and that was all very real the prospect that if they couldn't work something out today air mass ended up at trial and was convicted at trial. He could get jail time. Speros walks over motions that he wants to speak to air mass and Kelly can I come. Okay. They step outside the building. I can see them through the plate glass windows. Speros just dictating Aramis and Kelly listening nodding more distillates more nodding. They come back in. Yes. We all go into the courtroom. At the prosecutor's table was a guest prosecutor a woman named Sarah finale from fancy Cleveland law firm after the scandal with officer AMI out you could at hired her to deal with air-misses case, you're already know the judge Debra Barone. My understanding is a plea agreement is reached is that correct as correct your honor. And the plea. Behalf of Euclid at this time. It's my understanding was responsible with dry previous enter plays not guilty. Plea of guilty to charge the ballots charges tumor to this missed it his costs after all the struggle over these four charges and the civil rights secrets they contained we'd landed here there is this thing not even a last-ditch disorderly conduct just the weed. So you're just visiting counts. Be indeed the theft the regretting arrest in the criminal damage is correct. That is correct judge baron checks with Aramis is that correct? Yes. Your honor? She asks him if he's using marijuana. He says no that he stopped after the incident he tells her he's trying to get a job. Urmas mother Kelly is moving around in her seat in the gallery. You seem like you want to say something to do just a few minutes ago out in the lobby before court started Kellyanne I had been talking. She's got four grown sons are close family. She's been right there with Aramis every step of this case. She told me the police don't realize one day this could happen to one of their children some way somehow she said excessive force it has to stop essay. I couldn't care less about anything else. That's my man, go just to stop it. I mean, I'm not trying to throw race car this and that and other I just wanted to be fixed because. I mean that I must say police a bit. But if the system don't fix the ones as bad then that made the whole system is corrupt. But you on us as -ociety to fix what's going on in our home. But you don't wanna fix what's going on your home? Okay. Enough is enough. She talked about the beating her son took what it was like for her to see him in a hospital bed his face disfigured has she felt blessed? She hadn't been called to come view her son's body that day. Now Kelly was about to address the judge for the first time. I thought here comes the who is a bad incident happen. I'm glad because I've been trying to get myself off up marijuana for years. He's been clean nearest December. I couldn't ask for. Better payment for me is to see my son background. He was before. So. Saying him marijuana and everything else is up less. So, but then I'm thankful. And I appreciate your comments. Among fortunately, sometimes it takes something bad could happen for something. Good to come out of it. Know what you know? We're talking. Well, I see Mr Spencer, you break, supporting your mother, and you're very lucky to have that. On the drug abuse charge found guilty. It'll be a hundred and fifty dollars costs Spiro set set it to this incident. He told the judge has helped Armas he's been cleaned off marijuana straightened out. He's just happy to put this matter behind him. The elephant in the room the kicking the tasing the two hospitals, the broken orbital bone all of it had suddenly shrunk to the size of a bulge a sized, bulge as if this whole ugly endeavor was only about getting airmiss off of weed. Aramis knew the truth of it. Of course, later outside the courthouse. He'd give me a rise smile and say I'll take what I can get. But in this moment Kelly was flooded with maternal relief. She walked over to Sarah finale, the visiting prosecutor and gave her a hug. Life. That hug not the end of the story. More after the break. This is the road to hired brought to you by recruiter. Jessie Cole is a man who is more obsessed with fun than I think anyone I have ever met in my life. Every single day. Wow. How can you have fun when you put yourself? In addition like that a few years ago. Jesse bought a minor league baseball team in Savannah, Georgia and named them the savannah bananas. He thought he could make minor league baseball more popular by making the games this crazy circus of fun. We started thinking senior citizen, Dan, Paul bananas. I knew we gave away a joint at the game day. When they're on their knees in calling the crowd, and it's very scandalous tell you you remember people did remember it and they loved it in just two years. The bananas went from selling a single ticket per game to selling out every single game of every single season as they got bigger Jesse decided he needed some help sustaining all this fun. So he posted a job on sip recruiter for a position called director of fun immediately. He started getting dozens of qualified applicants including one guy named Tyler who sent Jesse videos of himself being as fun as possible. Going crazy, and dancing and just jumping in pools. I mean wearing ridiculous costume. And so when we thought that we're like, wow. This guy had. Was simple. It was easy to give more time to be able to have more fun at the ballpark for Jesse ZipRecruiter delivered qualified applicants faster than other sites. In other words, plus time reviewing resumes and more time for dancing. Try ziprecruiter. For free today at ZipRecruiter dot com slash cereal. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash Syria. Sip recruiter. The smartest way to hire. When Pollard I taken me to meet Erebus back at the end of two thousand sixteen as you're driving home. He'd impressed on me. How enduring the consequences of a beating can be pulse. Talk to a lot of people who've been hurt by police officers or corrections officers and he said, it's not something that's over even when it's over. When when you are seriously injured by the police when you're sent to the hospital and isn't just soft tissue some bullshit. It really does affect them. It'll it'll that this will mess with them. You'll like if you stick with the story, and we follow him, you'll see understood the broad strokes of what Paul was saying that there'd be some kind of fallout over time, psychological fallout. But I wasn't sure what that was going to look like a few weeks after air-misses criminal case ended Paul told me about a confusing conversation. He'd had with us. During which was repeating certain things about what had happened in his hallway as if it were looping and his head called Kelly to ask whether she'd noticed the same thing over and over over hopeful. Wow. Yep. It happened yesterday. And are you like how worried are you about him? Very really, Gary as a mother. Yeah. It's not easy to child, and you have no way I helped him. I don't know for me like he his trust. That was not there. No more. Anytime. Something comes up in the news. She said or maybe they're watching a movie together which used to be a joy for her. Now, if something comes up related to police violence or government corruption, she's worried about air-misses reaction. I say see I told you Kate's us, nobody. It's like he gets on maybe angry, and he gets talking. You twice gets around. You could field up. Rage at his and his tone there just five he leg, which is totally different. What's your fear for him? If he's kind of got that rage and anger his his not what he's not played at St.. Amazon is hurting she said and the shape of that hurt seems to be a need to prove to everyone around him that he's not a punk that. He's tough to Kelly's biggest fear. Now is that it'll take that hurt and that need out into the streets and deploy them where they don't belong. Kelly says none of her sons had been in the streets growing up. This is new for her for them. She never thought this kind of thing would happen to her family. But she said, suddenly you are that family that it's happening to. Officer Michel AMI, the cop air-misses case was fired from the police department more use of force incidents had come to light, including dreadful thing in the public library. Bodycam video showed him taking a sixteen year old girl wearing a backpack to the ground face. I while she was in handcuffs kept her down with his knee. The small child was watching shrieking. Emme outstayed fired for about a year. But he'd appealed his termination and just recently an arbitrator sided with him officer, EMMY out should be back on the police force any day. Poker. Stilo did end up filing a lawsuit on behalf of airmiss against the city of Euclid. The police officers and air MRs apartment, building Seraphin Elliott guest prosecutor whom Kelly hugged defended the city of Euclid this past summer. They settled neither the city nor the officers admitted liability Aramis got fifty thousand dollars. It wasn't as much as polit hoped. But he felt that it was the best. They were going to do things air mass had become rocky. He'd picked up a few new charges marijuana, but also domestic violence. They're all misdemeanors, but still. I don't wanna make excuses for whatever airmiss might have done and to be clear, neither did Paul. But I did ask Paul whether he thought there was a connection between then. And now was this what he was talking about back in December of two thousand sixteen when he told me this will mess with him. If you stick with the story and we follow him you'll see. Paul said, I don't know. I really don't know. In a civil trial assuming you win the jury has to figure out damages. That's the final stage of reckoning 'cause leads to an effect leads to compensation for the damage done. You financially physically it's a fairly rational calculus. But how do you quantify the intangible damage cop does to your sense of the world to your sense of yourself when he kicks your ass? And then what if it's not one 'cause that's led to the damage what if there are many causes many effects? I tried to call and message airmiss. Finally, I got word through Paul airmiss didn't plan on calling me back. He said he didn't have any interest in that right now. Jesse Nickerson though, different story does he had a lot to say to manual about causes effects. I'm gonna hand you back to a manual now. Fa months Jesse continued to rack up all kinds of tickets and charges including child for menacing and east Cleveland police officer at a gas station. When I heard about this thing on the Mike Foale now, it's just more of the same. The police have a hattrick of Jesse there will probably arresting him, and he gave it back small thing on a life of his own. How Jesse initially described it. He said. Yeah. Confronted a call. But it was nothing really pretty tame. So when I go video of what had happened. It really threw me. It was not tame. Video is from a body Cam, David Duncan, and he's even police officer was wearing in it. You can see that Duncan standing inside a gas station convenience store, right by the entrance men. Jesse enters the frame coming from the back of his shell carrying drink jesse's keeps everyone in Lyon. Register put some money down on the counter and the wolves pasta towards the door stops Cussing him out. Right. Got it. Hi. You've had a brother Jesse lease the store, but then comes back in he walks towards Dunkin. I'm Ben backs up opening the doors if to leave again, and again as Duncan tells Jesse he never did anything to him. Just he's trying to start something Dunkin Duncan's going for it. But jesse's relentless you only do stuff to people in cuffs. Jesse says you a coward? Nothing. Nothing to Jesse motions. Two. I never knew. I found this video shocking Jesse so aggressive. I didn't understand. It didn't understand what Jesse fully was doing on the wall. He could possibly get from going off to a way of in more trouble. A few hours off I video I met up with Jesse to talk about it. Of it here. You're right. Did I guess you've been smoking weed in his call in the parking lot at a train and bus station could win right in the middle of these Cleveland. A lot of people seem to common hang out here. Just the unite sat and his call and watch video. We got pot which seems to be challenging Duncan to fight. I posed it. What are you all skiing him? I'm telling him. I'm telling him to address the issue. I'm saying I'm fed up basically fair. Would you people putting your hands on me? That's what I'm saying like via mad then come on. I'm not saying I'm going Big Joe ass right now, I'm saying you all saying like step outside repeat. I said I'm telling him to take off his shit in not what do you mean? Take off his ship. Take off his take off his arm or his batch and all of that. And be a man like what does that mean? Be a man I'm saying because because obviously every time they ran into me. They didn't beat me up wider handcuffs him. I guess it's confusing to me because on the one hand you've said, I don't want any business vs. Police. I'm going about my business. I'm not doing anything illegal and harassing. But it seems like, but it seems like you go you'll harassing this officer right now like you'll starting this. Yes. I did. Jesse reminded me about David Duncan wasn't some random. He's even police officer Duncan was the officer who daunted free crowd of people on the full July left. Everyone else alone and grabbed Jesse. It was Duncan who dragged Jesse to the call. It was Duncan on the body Cam from that night who stood over Jesse insisting Jesse himself as Jesse lay shouting in pain. Just also told me he knew Dunkin even before that remember office Nevels gave jesse's phone number to the name Dixon for one. Who so called me and Jessie in the Paul just gone the police department to complain about Nevels. And when he did it was always a Dunkin Jesse said he talked to Jesse said Dunkin often who we wanted to complain about. And when Jesse told him Nevels Jesse said Duncan told him man, get the fuck outta here. I tried to talk to Duncan to ask about his various interactions of Jesse of police department. If used to make him vailable. Does he told me as a rule? He's never backed down from a fight except police shawl he his mouth off them. But he never full-back physically, Nepal. Dineen dixon. Not in the fourth of July. Not when he says they threw him into holding cell Jesse. He felt like the police were bullying him, and he was just taking it. Matt have been bothering in more and more. Another time. We were hanging out Wyndham Jesse told me he'd been having dreams about being back in the park with the name and the Cup. We living the moment. Name to challenge him to a fight. Sounded like these dreams will one Paul fastback. One pot fantasy about how things have gone differently. The situation. Probably would have worked out for the best or the worst. If I would defend myself. I try to run from the situation chasing me and beat me now. So I'm thinking like like if I would have had no my vendors right internet that I'm a man. And I and I know life you think if you defended yourself going better for you. If I would defend the myself, it would've been better because I know I know I know for me my physical wellbeing like I can I can handle him. I had I couldn't have often officers I doubted that the name was a six foot four x arena football linebacker. I don't know. I just feel like two against one that situation. I'm not trying to like that would not have turned out wealthy. No. I'm I'm I'm not saying like, I would a. They are saying listen. I hate that. I couldn't defend myself. I hate that. I couldn't defend my when I just ran that may not I been there, surrendered tomb like identity surrender to him. I knew Jesse fell. Shame the pump at night in the park. Mine always fought that was because it's inherently humiliating to be physically overpowered, but talking with Jesse I realized I didn't have that. Quite right. Really the thing Jesse feels ashamed about his daddy ran away. Face just negative. A video in the gas station. Just confrontation with office at Dunkin look different. Awesome Dunkin defying him like a man Nava. Jessie wasn't in cuffs, which you're gonna hear fight me. Like your math. But also for Duncan to fight Jesse like jesse's too. Off the what feels like an attentive yelling at Dunkin Jesse finally gives up the people in the stole. Stop talking. A lot of meiomi is one guy in the stall dots. Dunkin up congratulates Dunkin on keeping his cool. At one point the women says Duncan about Jesse Matt is so sad. Silva video of Jesse yelling at Dunkin. I wanted to get my hands on as much information about jesse's interactions with the police as possible. So same day. I went from jesse's call to east even police station to see if I could pick up some old police full jesse's arrest full to lie. Station bills a man of vestibule window. I never met before in Jeff Williams, southern it with an older white guy. Well-built weathered bold with us. Olten Pepe goatee. I told him I wanted to police he got up ambled over to a computer. And also it was full just Nickerson. I said I wanna see if it will pools, full July. Williams noted printed off row pools as he walked a window. We scan the pages law thing Lizzy read Jesse said to offices that night. When he got the window Williams is on the welled up with tears. He told me that Jesse never would have talked to him that way. I've been trying for moms to get anyone from these Cleveland police department to talk to me about Jesse and it just been impossible. Father Williams didn't say much else. But motioned me over to a dole. I'm buzzed me into the back. We went to an office where we offered me a seat at a desk. He told me he didn't want to be recorded. But he said, let me tell you. Why Jesse is the way is? Other Williams told me acquainted with his family for twenty years. The Nickens whistle of notorious in east Cleveland and jesse's old above is constantly getting in trouble. Basaltic William said Jesse was really sweet kid super brines. The kind of kid you want to save the world around him. Him smiled when he talked about it many pools said Jesse stop being bright young kid off the Ricky died Jesse told me about Ricky his older brother and how Ricky was melted in nineteen ninety eight when Jesse was ten years old. Sitting in his living room and just built a makeshift diorama on the coffee table in front of him using a cigarette lighter and a bottle of orca just move him around. He told the story about one night. We've been free fans hanging out in a parking lot. Smoking weed laced with PCP, then one of Ricky's friends had a psychotic episode and Scheldt Ricky in the head the other guys ran a friend of a gun hunted down one by one and killed them. According to Jesse all of his happened with a police officer, just one street away, an officer who know dot had begun file, but didn't respond until off his shooting salt. The police could have saved one person vet night Jessie said. But we didn't do nothing. Sign ova van three people died. Southern Williams told me about off the vet night. Jessie, wasn't the same within a couple of years. He started getting in trouble. He said just he's family's real from Ricky's death for years afterwards and said he would constantly be picking up one of jesse's alva- Bravo's for small crimes mostly drug related. One night. We was bonded to a disturbance when he that he sold. Jesse's brother was involved. Does. He's bravo. Will so high out of it sounds Williams decided to just take him home instead of taking him to the station as Vedro v- jesse's brother tolls autumn Williams, you don't know deaf following wins. Omitted he didn't know deaf. People. Eat have lost his grandparents he's jesse's buffer off. When Williams came home that morning, he arrived to find his own fourteen year old son Kyle died he'd been huffing a bottle of dust of computer cleanup and going into cardiac arrest. Instead of a deaf toys family upon blamed himself, not knowing how dangerous huffing walls, his dole to blame herself. Because she'd seen cows Nico of bottle of dust often hadn't said anything. Williams said she never recovered. Sandra Williams told me he's watched Jesse get in trouble and to him. It's always look like suffering me only jesse's ever going for suffering. It seemed assault. Jim Williams was beaten up by two cups and send away a little bit of money. He said vs days whenever we just his name. He braces himself news vet jesse's dead. He told me that if I was going to do a story about Jesse Nicholson. I should talk to Jesse mall about Ricky. So I did three weeks later. Jesse and I in his apartment Jesse was not an aggressive moods interview had spilled into a Fesday night, and you could hear his friends drinking outside. I brought up saw Williams. I ran into him not going go. And these are some really nice things about you. I started to tell him what salted Williams said about what a sweep bright kid Jesse was about raise meta said, he wasn't like that. I knew sooner. And he's cleave ain't never gave me extra damn apple or nothing. So that's a lot this ally. Okay. I mean, he didn't even say that he'd he'd done. I hadn't even say that he is no officer that never never been nice to me. So no, Jesse was adamant more adamant, but ever, HUD, Embi he denied about Williams knew anything about it. This is how foolish she was. He he's not speaking on me. Not speaking on me. He speaking on my brother wheel. I'm Tony, Tony my brother. My brother got killed twenty years. I wouldn't out here in streets. How he he win. No me back, then that's a lot. But he says you like a small kid that you he knew a smoke. It wasn't wasn't our industries like our weather here. I'm trying to do. Actually, do the math like, I'm listen, I have not interacting with officer at school and stuff. How I'm not into the Haro. What is? CME Jesse says all Jim Williams must be confusing him for his brother, William I've met just he's he and Jesse Dula cluele alike. But in any case, the thing Jesse most strongly rejected that Ricky's death change, a cool of jesse's life in the way, saw Williamsville saying his brother got cute. I seen seen troubling doesn't kidding crying? Oughta Sammy car if you see me cry. That's what I posted. I went through the things that I was going through when I was younger 'cause I was young and done. I was dumb. I seen everybody out here with auto flashy stuff and all that I wanted to same stuff. But, you know, quite a case when I was eighteen got when I was twenty two and ain't never been back by. So it's cool day. I'm in. I'm not to get officers. Just. Speak facs, man like life is about facts, but they want a single something. Like why I am a trouble human being why trouble person? This a person spectate somebody else life. I mean, that's it in or trying to do is. We light this. This is why Nickerson is the way he is. What is why? He don't went through the drought. He then went through. That's not the case. That's not the case. Jesse wins angrily for the next ten minutes about Saudi Williams's theory. I think his reaction was so intense because he's been food so much more than Ricky Steph. His sister Denise who Jesse was close to missing VO week when Jesse was a teenager, and she was found dead and Hohmann his died as an infant his teenage nephew de'andre died in a drive by then they'll over wrongs Jesse believes the police have done him. I think when Williams Pinson meeting on Ricky and how Ricky's defect Jesse Jesse founded offensive generalizing. Jessie, wasn't in the mood to have a solid favors. He was too angry for that. And he wasn't interested in being explained. Especially by of all people police officer, like I'm very ceased. Now, like, I am not I'm tired of being treated like, I'm Charlie. I'm tired of being the victim. So no more just Nickerson is being a victim. I'm not letting was that me. I'm. Whatever. Like, I'm not saying, I just want the world to know. See like, I'm not keeping the victim. Right. Come up on the put they have only for no reason, I'm not going let it happen. Like, I'm not just about that. I see all these other times. I never did that I just been the victim is not I'm not by the keeping victim, man. I had to press him to get into lay it out explicitly. But Jesse will saying that the next time the police physical with him his plan was to find that. Would see more some for everyone especially worrisome because in the mums after that that leads in east Cleveland, I paid to be driving down just street a lot riding Jesse ticket off the ticket of usual driving on his suspension read possession one east Cleveland lay. The told me the attitude of folks was that while offices shouldn't go out of their way to Jesse up may should quote handle Jesse when every opportunity presented itself. Eventually, these even told me this noble effect will, you know, take effect. Laughing. I'm gonna tell you is how jesse's pile up of criminal charges in east Cleveland. How Jesse beat one shot at trial? But the bulk of them dragged on for months, months and months until one cool date in January when he's Cleveland essentially held out one hand to make a deal, and the the it took a swing dropped all five charges from jesse's full of Eli arrest. They didn't have bodycam video backed up the claim but Jesse we'll see aggressive, but he'd spat on office. In return, Jesse did to free misdemeanor charges, including the menacing charge against office at Dunkin app, a gas station those charges. The city went off to him off king for year in jail. Sentencing city security listed some just as felony convictions noting jesse's long rap. She needs Cleveland. Some twenty two cases all she fade bodycam video from one of jesse's previous arrests through to foam, Jesse was mobbing police officer. She didn't know was that that same arrest will suspect Jesse laid a beat that case at trial anyway in a brief filed with the Colt the city argued that Jesse posed a danger to the police and on top of that was a quote, extremely negatively influence on the city of Cleveland. The judge William Olsen didn't see move by the city's pitch. Instead, he did something. I didn't see coming pretty much knowledge that the city had a point. But also diplomatically told everyone that he Jesse had a point to. The city and the police had an out for him. And said in not so many words, that's probably true. Wasn't there? I don't know what occurred. You prevailed? It was a settlement. So obviously something happened in that could be the reason you have a problem with the police, I cannot discount it and at the same time that may be a reason why they haven't problem with you is like, okay, we think that he prevailed prevailed. So yeah, it'd be time. Time. His his blooms networking with this. This is Blake as they don't like you make an you may not mind. So now, how do we deal with encounters? So this end up in court pass the key. Tulleson decided some kind of solution of in jail time was an older with that he sends Jesse to six months of probation and enrolled him in a program designed to teach people how to have to experiences with the criminal Justice system. His hope he later told me Jesse would learn how to behave better around police to calm himself. Sevi- interactions would be less heated. I thought it was almost kind vote. It also seemed like the judge was hoping Jesse would change because he knew these given police went going to. Just before jesse's thirtieth birthday. He's talking to Emanuel on the phone Jesse was full of resolve. Here's wasting too much energy on the courts. He said he's ready to do something meaningful. Maybe write a book about his life. You wanted to write the end of his story. Now, he said so that it would be a good name. If you slot Jesse into a data set. No one's favorite place to hang out. Sorry, jesse. But if you consider him not as a trash talker with a rap sheet, but as a thirty year old man going about his business. Odds are the criminal Justice system is pretty much done with ESI because people in their thirties an older, they're not the ones committing the most. And the worst crimes as one research paper, I read gently put it crime tends to be a young person's activity. To see the people the system is really focused on we need to just lean to the left a little bit and look behind Jesse at the teenagers. That's next time on cereal which will be in two weeks. I gotta go out of town. But then we'll be back with our final episodes. Serials produced by Julius Neider Emmanuel Joe cheap. Ben Calhoun, meet with additional reporting by Italy's goski, and a few Scruggs editing on this episode from IRA glass, we need field is digital editor research and fact checking by Ben falen sound design and mixed by stone Nelson music clearance by Anthony Roman. Seth Lind is our director of operations ZipRecruiter ads voiced by Stephanie food, the serial staff includes Emily Khandan, Julie Whitaker. Cassie Halley Francis. Swanson, Matt Tierney our music is by Adam door, and how Wilner with additional music from Matt McGinley and westwards. Our theme song is by Nick Thorburn and remixed by Adam Dorn support for Ciro comes from ZipRecruiter their powerful matching technology scans thousands of resumes identifies people with the right skills education and experience for your job. And actively invites them to apply. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter dot com slash cereal. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash cereal special. Thanks to Derrick Jackson, Mariah Crenshaw. Nick, Kostelic judge. Michael Donnelly, judge John O'Donnell, David Eisenberg and Lindsey bore Greg Edwards and Marsha Fisher. From the Ohio bureau of motor vehicles, Abigail McNeil. Amanda Bates, Linda Ricco and Jack green the art on our website was made by Martinez e b he created the mural for this episode and Mont studio did the animation. Please check it out on our website Ciro podcasts dot org that serial podcast dot org. Or you can also sign up for Email newsletter and notified when new episodes are released. 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Paddington 1 and 2 with Demi Adejuyigbe
"It was a writing camp at a house in the Hamptons for beyond say, she's walking around with her baby walking from room to room, just listening to what we were working on. I remember ferrall showed up at the front door. He had like a CD full of beats. Everybody was slinging beats at her. When I remember, I kept getting the end of the course to look a hill goes here. Like in needs another section like the the anthem stadium like everybody screams. It. Record it into my phone when I was running like, I'm sitting here panting into the phone. And that was that was it. And she was like, Kratz you, have you have Beyonce as per single does. Like what? What an interesting day that was. I'm Dave Stewart songwriter producer co founder of your ethics and co creator and executive producer of land show all about the intimate and mysterious author of sowing. Join us for sung lands podcast on iheartradio app. A wherever you get your podcast. Cast the questions asked movies have women are all their discussions. Boyfriends and has been did do they have individualism, the patriarchy's FM fast start changing with the Beck del cash. Hello. I've been to the Bechtel. As you got me, a marmalade pillow. You made it I made you marmalade pillow and I got I got a second. I got a little companion over here, please this bitch Cox, crafty. I did it. I did it. Yeah. I'm also caused playing as for the listeners home, but I am going to, like, surely a brilliant move for our audience. It looks incredible. I mean it's Caitlyn's birthday, give it up for. For her birthday. It's her Jordan near, it's her cried stare. She's living in class at twenty nineteen. Right. Really incredible stuff. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming to the Bechtel cat. I think you were so excited for tonight. It's Paddington batting to. Big night for. So, so quick survey clubby. If you've listened to the Bechtel cast before. Amazing, and then club, don't be shy. If you are the person that has been dragged here by someone else. We've got gonna hesitant. Yeah. There's always a trickle. It's always someone. Who's like I'm a coward. Cool. Well, thank you for being here or sites that you're here out of curiosity. Is there anyone who has not seen the Paddington 's both don't raise your hand. You clap is an audio media. Oh, not the shoe movie, what's going on here? Well, I only I'd only seen the movie I mainly watch it on Chris on Christmas. Yeah. So, you know, we're all on our own Paddington journey. That's true. That's true. I don't want to shame anyone but round Claus who has seen the. Paddington cz. You've only one that's like. Yeah. Yourself? That seems like a reasonable compromise. So the Bechtel cast for the two people who are here, and everyone at home. We are a podcast that looks at popular movies from a feminist perspective using the Bechtel test as a jumping off point. That's right. And the Bechtel test if you're not familiar requires that two female identifying characters have names there in the movie together, they have to talk to each other, and that can't talk about men or Paddington, unfortunately, although I think any conversation about Paddington still passes, the Bechtel test, I disagree. A melody. Hi birthday. But fine disagree. Can we demo the Bank task because I do have a test. Yes. Okay. Hi. Caitlyn, jamie. Do you think no coal Kidman's wig is, is more egregious in Paddington one or big little lies season? One I have not seen big little if you've seen the poster you've seen the way. I'm gonna go with big. Little is known because everything about Paddington is perfect. Okay. Fair fair, at least in Paddington like it's supposed to look like it's a wig. Whereas a big little lies. It's very distracting. Well, that was my Bechtol. End up talking about Paddington. You ended up. Oh, well Paddington, I v not Paddington the, in the movie is genderless. Yes. Genderless icon Paddington. Yes. Movie should we bring out our guest? You know him from being a TV writer. He is the co host of punch up the jam podcast. He's also been a previous gust of ours on our Star Wars force awakens episode give it up for Demi did you EBay? Thanks for coming back, you for having me back. Also in defense of use sang that Paddington doesn't count with Bechtol cast, it's you, you can't talk about men, right? Yes. He a boy. True, little baby. Boy found a loophole. Desert, the podcast over. Right. Great. So Demi, thank you so much for being here. What's your history, your relationship with the Paddington movie? I feel like you just asked me grandpa, tell me a story about the war, and I'm like oh, Paddington, but, like a really wonderful war. We all love so much this, how this, how Titanic starts just leave out the everything after the sex. I'm like, no. That didn't happen. It's just a nice bright. Basically Paddington people were like freaking out about Paddington to. And I was kind of, like, okay. Well, everyone seems to really on ironically loved. I'm going to go see it and I went to see it with a bunch of friends, and then I was like, wow, that was delight, but I haven't seen Paddington one. So I went home the next day watch Paddington because on Netflix. And then I was like, I think you texted me going like have you seen Paddington like, no, but I want to see it again. And we went and saw Paddington, two meters. I think it was my second time your third time at the time. Yes. Yes. And I was just like this movie's very good. Very good. It's just so pleasant. Didn't you get kicked off Twitter for? Yes. Yeah. For depend on his honor. This is the war part of the story. Basically a friend of mine. Ben Kahn, was tweeting one day that he was jokingly saying, well, guys, just finally saw Paddington to. I gotta say that bear kind of naive dip shit. I know fair point. Fair point. He's naive, but we love him for shit. No. So, basically, I responded to him saying as a joke. I just said, I will fucking kill you Benjamin. And twitted on like that. So someone basically started like abusing the reports system and Gumy kicked off, and then everyone was like, hey, what are you? Why are you know? Hey, that's not how it works and Twitter is like yeah. Okay. Sorry. Well, I'm glad you're back on Twitter. Oh, me too. Jamie. What's your history with Paddington you harass me until I watched it on Christmas? I like I did remember I watched there was a TV series that I watched it when I was younger. And I read some of the books it wasn't like it was weird. I was more attached to a bar. Who knows? Oh. Bay bar bay bar. I don't know babe. But really linked it someone like that. I was trying to cross a feel like this is a moment when I realize why did I confidently correct mid phrase? This is like went one time. I thought I knew how to say mcgregor's less all my God. It's you win. That doesn't make you come saying, I guess. I said it really. I said it really like. I was like he was named Byron Schwarzenegger. So. Mcgregor mcgregor. You know, there's no way to know how bad are Bob. I don't even know who bay Bari. Oh, elephants. Okay. British elephant suit crown. I shit. I'm learning anyways, you know, we gotta get that for where's the social Justice bay bar. Franchise go to question, Sean and make it happen. So I made you I asked you into watching it the both of them back to back on Christmas. And I did love them, and then I watched them back for this, and I still love them, and it hasn't been that long. Yeah. What about Caitlin? Well, I. You know that. I love these movies. I saw the first one not right when it came out. But I would say like late twenty fifteen into twenty sixteen. I really. Yeah, I saw Paddington to theaters four times. And I just love it so much. It makes me cry. Even when I'm watching it the parts that don't make me cry. I just think about the parts that do make me cry. And then I cry anyway. Act of crying through Paddington has become like sort of meta exercise, and that the crying so much part of it, that you have to think of either the fact that you are crying the lack of tears. Yes. Yeah. I appreciate it when a movie tells me when to cry via music because sometimes you're like, oh, wait, I'm heartless. How do I know? And then the movie goes, like, and you're like, oh, I'm crying. That was vendors endgame. I didn't know what the fuck was going on. Oh, yeah. Five hundred characters had never heard of. So wait. Did you watch endgame having not seen any of it? I'd seen like three out of twenty and then I went to C N game. And I was in, I was weeping. But only when I was told that is just I feel like I'm getting off on a different thing here. But I'm like, that is fascinating. Because I feel like even with three you kind of get it all you understand. I mean, it's easy to be like, oh, they're friends. Yeah. Sure. I do the recap. Let's do it. So I'm going to recap both movies in a slightly less detailed way than I normally do. Because we, we have a finite amount of time for the show to movies to talk about recap. Here we go. So Paddington one, it's about a little bear. I'm already crying. He emigrates to London from darkest Peru. He's trying to find a new home after an earthquake destroys his home that he lives in with his aunt, Lucy and uncle studio. He goes looking for. Explorer who his aunt and uncle had met when the explorer went on an expedition to Peru. And this explore discover that the bears can talk and he introduces them Tamar malade, and he teaches them English. And he is clearly actively trying to call an eye Cologne, but then he doesn't. So we love him. He's not about it, but then he's like they can speak English. I won't call it. He's bad. So anyway, the little bear arrives in London. And people aren't as locum ING as he thought they would be, but eventually a family finds him at Paddington station, which is basically the Ellis Island of this movie. Right. It's like if everyone who came to Ellis, Island was named Ellis Island. Yeah. And this is the Brown family. It's MRs Brown who names him Paddington, Mr Brown, their kids, Judy and Jonathan, and then relative MRs bird, who we meet a little later on that Ron. Weasley mon-. Yes. That is Julie Walters. Yeah. Also in Mamma Mia. Yeah returns. Oh career she's had a salute to Julie. Yes. What a strong for years. She's. So the family takes Paddington home and they promised to help him. Find this explorer important to note that Mr Brown is pretty racist towards bears. He's a full-on Zinatha. I think, honestly in the Brown family in the first movie you're like the Brexit vote is split in this household. Yeah. It makes you wonder why Mr. and MRs Brown are married. I wonder full franchise by she isn't dumped his ass. Yeah. Oh my God. This movie is the cute version of green book. Because in that same sense. Linda Cartolini's like dome. My husband's thrown my spoiling green book for anyone is kidding spoils itself, basically, he throws away two glasses bets like two black construction workers drink out of which is just a violent of racism is like they touched this. I can't have it in my home. And she just looks at it in the trash, and I was like why husband like she's just like oh, racism, such an inconvenience. Tuck wasting so many classes by the end he learns to love the man. Yes, you certainly just like Mr Brown Sally Hawkins. I mean in that relationship. She must be addicted to emotional labor, because that's all that is for her as her being in the first movie. She's like, please don't be racist and the second movie. She's like, please don't. Hey, people who got a prison so much and every time Mr Brown gets to be do the cathartic speech at the end of be like I figured it out. I shouldn't be racist. And we're like. Yes. Just going to be like. Yes. Yes. Yup. They did it good job. So one of the reasons that Mr Brown isn't a big fan of Paddington is it? He does mess up their house, a lot because he's a clumsy little berry can't help it cute. At this point. And then meanwhile Nicole Kidman is in the movie with a wig the goal came in and Nicole Kidman swig. Please don't forget their separately. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, we've got higher billing. The weakest union, baby. She finds out that this little bear is in town. And then she goes looking for him because she wants to kill and stuff him. And then there's also a racist neighbor, Mr. curry who's trying to help Nicole Kidman because he also hates bears. Meanwhile, Paddington and the Browns continue to try to track down the explorer with the help of Mr. Gruber and Paddington hat that leads them to the geographers guild, and then they learned the name of the explorer Montgomery, CLYDE. So then Paddington is about to go like fine Montgomery Klein, but then he over hears Mr Brown being like Paddington sucks. And he's putting our family in danger, and then Sally Hawkins is like kind of. So Paddington leaves, and we cry, then he goes to the last, m CLYDE in the book, and it's the same house that Nicole Kidman moves at. And her way underweight, she kidnaps him, and it turns out that she is the daughter of the explorer, and she is bitter that her late father refused to collect the specimen of this species of bears who can woman in stem with daddy issues. Man. Homerun. So then the Browns go to rescue Paddington 'cause they realized how good this week ahead is for the family and then Paddington almost is, but on the Browns save him and they bring him into their family as one of their own the end of the first one of the first one. Yes. And now onto Paddington to the best movie ever made. He is back. Yes. A different one disappears for few. The first act set up, it's going to be just like this things like, all right. But what about when he's like making sandwiches? All right. It's just different movie then. I like when I want to imagine like the Paddington to pitch of someone busting down the door. It'd be like this is an indictment of the prison industrial complex. And they're like, yes. Sure. Hello listeners. It was at this point during the live show that something happened to our recording. The connection live show curse indoors. Yes. But it was only for five minutes, we only lost five minutes of audio at this point, the assassins came into the room fighting them off and Hugh Grant came in and was like, no ratio e. So here's what you missed. Yes. So we're just going to we're in the studio. Now, we're, we're filling in the gaps mind the gap mind that because Britain because of British love it. Yes. Okay. So here's the recap to Paddington to Paddington has been living with the Browns for a few years now. They all love each other, everything is great until Paddington is in the wrong place at the wrong time. And he likely story, just so typical of Paddington. And he is accused of stealing a pop up book of London, which is the same book that he was saving up money for to buy as a gift of his Lucy. Yes. From Mr. Gruber, because he wants to give something to Lucy for her birthday, and I also had a day, con paying forward lettuce. We find out that the actual thief is their new neighbor. Phoenix Buchanan played by Hugh Grant in the role of a lifetime. Really incredible seeing Hugh Grant in this role made me think about how he should have been count off in a series of unfortunate events. He's doing basically the same character and doing circles around Patrick Harris and Jim Carey. Yes. Yes. So Phoenix began in stole the book, because it turns out that it's a treasure map to Madame costlo of fortune, that Phoenix is also planning to steal DOI, but Paddington is tried convicted and sent to prison very quickly. This all happen that, honestly, I was just like dim parliament is so much more efficient. They were American Justice system in our in America. It would have been a three month long televised event. Right. But there's just female judge is like fuck. You gotta jail. No, it's, it's a female lawyer in time to. But it's the male judge who gets his head buzzed, partly because of Paddington anyway. So he gets sent to prison for Phoenix's crime and the Browns work to clear, Paddington name, and eventually, MRs Brown fingers out that it is Phoenix, Buchanan, who's the real thief. But by that time a few of the other prisoners have convinced Paddington to break out of prison with them, but not before Paddington has reformed, the prison and made a lot of baked goods there. Right. I do love the prison reform message. I will say when they escaped prison, we don't know what they're guilty of and it may. In fact, be very dangerous that certain prisoners might be rapists. Murderers. Literally like statistic. I mean at least one shouldn't have gotten out of jail. Yeah. There's plenty of false over convictions prison. Industrial complex is strong. Yes. But at least one, there's, like seven of them. I'm like, at least one person really should have statement thing. They were all there on, like, minor marijuana possession charges. That's nice. Yeah. They just like live somewhere, where it's not quite legal. And they got busted, like three years too early. I have no idea of marijuana's legal in the U K or not listener, English listeners are you high right now? And if so, is it legal? So they the prisoners have convinced Paddington to break out with them. Because they've convinced him that it's his only chance to clear his name. So Pennington escapes, and then he realizes that they've lied to him. So he goes off on his own, and he contacts the Browns and they tell him to meet them at Paddington station. Wouldn't you believe it because that is where the cost of a travelling fair is about to leave from. And that is also where they think Phoenix Buchanan is about to steal the fortune from. I love third act. Everyone's gotta be in this location at this time so they all they find him. They're chasing after him on various trains, and then they all finally stop Phoenix. But then Paddington almost is again. I mean, the train scene is incredibly done, like I think, for everyone at the live show it was voting something a little bit different for me. It was the bye bye bye music video shortage. Or for me. It was the. Back to the future three and also the beginning of Indiana Jones and the last crusade, for me it was really just the my by music. Beautiful, and then MRs Brown saves Paddington with the help of the prisoner buddies, who come back for him. And then at the very end the Browns and the whole neighborhood get together, and they surprise Paddington by bringing luc- to London to see him and we cry beautiful. I love this movie respects women. Icon, paddington. Can we make that shirt? Please. I guess so I feel like he doesn't Italy. I'm sorry. He's just he's not really doing. He's not out there at the protest. He's, he's, he's, I think Paddington does the bare minimum which we appreciate bare minimum the bear. There's the shirt doing the bare minimum. Not true. He does the bear maximum. Can you say that I think that's a good compromise compromise once Coddington shows up at a rally, then you know, he'll achieve feminist. Let's put it to vote on our on our Twitter. We're going to have the different design options, and then we'll, let's let the decide, well, you know, they're going to be like, oh, look bear. Got a damn it. I don't wanna make this shirt for I'll make it. I'm not a very good artist. But all all first of all for Paddington I will design. Cool. So we have to go to a quick break, and then we will come right back. Hey, jamie. Yeah. You know how in order to do our job, effectively to talk about movies. We have to be feeling our best in our minds have to be sharp as sort of I'm kind of brain dead. Well, something that can help with that is a thing that we're about to talk about. Because here's the thing we all want to do the right thing to keep our bodies healthy in the long run. Right. Right. But even if we try to eat kale salads, and drinking green smoothies, which we never do, we're still most likely not getting all the essential nutrients. We need on a daily basis. Enter ritual the obsessively researched vitamin for women. Rituals essentials have the nutrients most of us. Don't get from food all in their clean absorbable forms. 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Here we go. So something that stuck out to me, and I think it's worth discussing is in both of the Paddington movies. There is a use of what I viewed to be kind of tropy use of sudden, maternal instinct syndrome in regards to the Paddington character that will work as an effective transition back into the live show which we've seen a million movies of like the second that Mary Brown sees Paddington. She's like we have to help him. I am mummy. And then in putting to it kind of even doubles down on that were like aunt Lucy sees Paddington, the little cub and is like we're not moving because I'm mommy like it's, it's, it's fairly a tenth. Yeah, I choose to see all of that. As Mary and Judy and MRs is being very active participants in the story. I mean it is worth noting that we don't see any male character have that inherent, caring which I was too busy being racist against. The one time where you do see that sort of caring instinct from Mr Brown is sort of shown as a joke where it's like they go into the hospital with the motorcycle. And he comes to everybody stay away, say, protected probably, yeah. That's true. Hey, it's it doesn't feel that towards anyone who is not his own children. Exactly. Yeah. Like you would never extend that caring too. So it's like caring and it's like I don't even know where I fall in this. But it is definitely a trope relegated to women of like something turns on inside of you. And you'll just pick up a bear like. I. Bringing it home. My son now. Now I see what you're saying. Yes, I agree. And I would argue even like MRs bird ends up being a caregiver not necessarily so much as a maternal figure, but she, she spends most movie cleaning up after Paddington. So that's you know, she's forced into a caregiver type role. I like about MRs Brown is that we know is, she does for fuck and job that I was worried that. And I don't know if this is true in the books like if there are any book heads anyone here read a fucking book before. Me either. But I, I think it's cool that like she is given a career. We know what it is the entire franchise. It's not added as like an afterthought which, because we're kind of given this like nuclear family, like, isn't really a given for, for the mom to even have a job, much less. We know what it is or like how it affects their lives. And even in the in the second movie her job lends itself to a skill that actually becomes pretty important to the story because she draws descriptions of different criminals who are showing up, and which is what I think is one of the movies. Great strengths is that all the female characters who we get to know who are significant to the story are just that they are significant to the story, because they all have skills or interests or a job that actually, like contributes to the events of the story, and that they want, especially for sure it's really come in the second one because there is like, you know, like. You know, like we are always looking out for Mary sue kind of tropes, where in a lesser movie that isn't Paddington to Sally Hawkins being able to dive into like the ocean or whatever body of water. It is. And like almost released Paddington would be like how the fuck did she do that? But that's set up at the beginning of the movie that she's been trying to sing. She's been swimming, a lot and the same sort of lent to Judy has, has this interest in journalism them set up at the beginning of the movie that becomes useful to helping figure out what what's happening to Paddington. I wished that like, in the second movie like Mary, and Judy should've started like a serial style podcast. Oh, where's this bear at? That's the needed, odd non do it. Yeah. That would be fun, everything that we're describing probably just sounds like how storytelling should work, you know, like the female characters contributing to the events of the plot. But if you've ever heard our show before you know that actually pretty rare. Get to do one thing like out of nowhere. Right. Exactly. But in this movie like all the female characters pretty much every step of the way throughout both movies are contributing to the story and have skills and interests that pay off in some significant way for sure. Here's a question, do you think the, the maternal instinct, that comes from the women in this franchise is sort of done that way? Because they need the women to be the voice of reason, and all the men are like the buffoon sort of, in a way that it's like if the women are the voice of reason they have to find the solution. And because the plot is saved this child bear, it feels like being the voice of reason is sort of coming off, as maternal, I like where you're thinking, Demi, I still think that it's like this movie accomplished like this whole franchise gets to be so nuanced in so many ways. And that's like one of the few as or didn't do it. We're like the men are so cartoonish -ly uninterested in helping a helpless. Try holds in both of them that it almost feels unrealistic or don't even know if that's that cartoonish because I mean, this is where sort of like the allegory comes in. Well, yeah. For especially Paddington one where like, Mr Brown is just behaving the way, a lot of people would behave to, you know, an immigrant or an outsider someone who's been ushered in a way that is unfortunately, pretty realistic for how a lot of people behave that's there. I just I do think that, like, the, the maternal instinct, turning on, like a light switch to sort of being something that is integral to the plot. Like there's I don't know. Like there's a more nuanced way to accomplish that because it happens in so many movies just like the man doesn't have the, the time for it, and then the female character is like no. We have to and it's like that is a good thing. That is the thing that all people should be capable of doing. But it, it does just sort of seem Trohpy to relegate it to her. In a completely unknown swipe. But you're right. Like the fact that it is an allegory kind of does shift that dynamic a little bit. I sometimes feel like when people do that in movies where it's just like, oh, the women have to be the voice of reason the entire time. It's because they're afraid that when people watch movies and see a woman being like funny or even just like flawed in any way. They'll be like, we can't do that people hate us for it showing woman top perfect. And it's like that's not it's not the problem. Yeah. So many Mary sued characters to is just like most times. There's Mary sue characters. I feel like it's written by like guys who are feeling insecure about, like, don't want girls to hate me. Let me just like write a boring as character that gets everything. Right. And that's not necessarily these characters but, you know, this movie is written by men. So me with, with no mothering instinct to speak of because like if there is like an overly maternal character like a female character is characterized in such a way that like she. Just she's like, mommy, who has to be the mummy to everyone like that definitely is something that I tend to notice and, you know, depending on how severe it is. Will you know annoy me that amount for these, I see, like MRs Brown? I guess, just as being more compassionate than maternal. But again, I just can't criticize this movies. So I don't know. I it tips a little bit that way for me. But it's like not to the point where I, I mean, the good thing is even though I feel like that's present. There's still so much more to that character that we know about, especially like between movies one in tooth. I feel like there's an even more of an improvement. Yeah. And how much like care is given to the female characters in terms of their always active participants. But in like how much we know about them where in the first movie, judy's storyline is mostly, like she has a crush on a boy at the end. She introduces the boy to her mom, and then in the second one I feel like and I hope. That, you know all franchises can kind of move in this direction. And a lot of ways of like, oh, maybe that was a little bit lazy, and like, okay, let's give her an interest. Let's give her. She basically starts Jez Abell at the beginning of this. It was like this all she's like she starts. An all female news. No boys allowed. And yes, is it implied that it's because she felt sad about a relationship ending? Sure. But that's also why I started doing comedy. So whatever. The third one I started going to stand. Yeah. I started to write a note being critical of that, and I'm like, Jamie. You fucking did that. But it is cool like, between movies went into it. Seems like the writers were taking notes, and what's going on even in the first one, though, it set up early on that she has an interest in like language, and it's like she's learning Chinese and she wants to open a small business. She's going to be a business owner. And then that pays off because she starts learnt Paddington starts teaching her bear, and then she's able to communicate with him in bear and ends up helping to save his life because she's like, oh, we need to go to the roof. He's going for the roof. So, at least like she's equipped with that. Not interest that, again, like contributes to the events of the story in both movies, we get like an overview of the Brown family where it's basically like Paddington relaying to his aunt Lucy like just who the Browns are. And what they do. And I was kind of reminded of what happens in the Royal ten. Yeah. It was like the west plan will plan movie. Why? Yeah. The west. The west Anderson. Flambeau flam sounds like a prescription that movie. That is every every frame is yellow that one. Yes. So in The Royal Tenenbaums, which we talked about, on the show, there's like this voiceover narration. And it's like look at all the boys. Here's all the things they've accomplished. Here's all the things they like to do. And here's how awesome they all like visually similar to. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then for the female characters in The Royal Tenenbaums, it's like here's all the boys that chief aqed the end. So that's all we know about that. And that again, does happen to a small degree, with, like Judy because it's like she's has a crush on Tony. All right. You wish that the information was reverse, but at least the year like the thing with, like, okay, there's at least more to her than like likes boy likes the boy am learning language is better than I was doing at twelve. Should we just talk about sort of the allegorical elements was fine movies? Yeah, sure let's do it. So the first one Paddington one is essentially an allegory for an immigrant experience. I think it's a good allegory except that I think the problem might be that this could have given visibility to an actual Brown or black person who's an immigrant and like seeing their story. And instead, it's a bear, and then everyone else is white, so. Wait. Are you saying that instead of Paddington being a bear he should have been? I'm not a black. Saying that necessarily, because if you're if you're take here's I can't criticize anything about this movie. However, Paddington should have been. This Peruvian boy, yes, I don't know, if I'm communicating my point very well. I see what you're saying. I mean where there could have been visibility to an immigrant, who is from Peru, who would probably be a Brown person. Instead, it's a bear who speaks the queen's English. For this franchise. I don't know how possible it is to make that edit right? Without it becoming gave very different. Yeah. But there is. I mean, and then there is such a history with I mean we can go straight up. Sally hawkins. Movie specifically with other characters being subbed out by, like animals or by creatures such a history of that happening when I feel like this is one of the gentler examples of that, because, you know, you can extend that allegory to like, early monster movies and a lot of shit like that, where I don't know. Yeah, there's been. There's been a lot of interesting. I've got some quotes. Sure, please. They've been a lot of interesting stuff written about how Paddington is like in other creature. That is representing a different group of people. I got some hot facts, Jamie topics. Jamie. So Paddington has been a political symbol for over sixty years. So since or almost sixty years, sorry, my facts are bad. But the author of the original books, has always used Paddington as a as a political symbol as recently as two thousand nine Paddington was like the voice of his character was used in a campaign to end the arrested detention of hundreds of child asylum seekers in prison, like conditions in the UK like he's a huge like UK like immigration advocates. So I mean. He's an icon for a very long time end like was, I was very curious about in the add up, how much of the intent was in the book versus how much was translated, but he was written that way to be because the author of the books had been a holocaust survivor. And like there were a lot of displaced children narratives that went into the writing of this book. So I thought that was interesting. One of the things that also like the only criticism from the original creators of Paddington, the only criticisms of the movie where the relationship between Paddington, Mr. Gruber. Apparently also originally, the fact that Paddington is from Peru was a suggestion of an editor, he was originally from darkest Africa. And then they were like how about darkest Peru, and it's like still fucking weird still fucking raises. But sure, so originally, the Mr. Gruber, Paddington relationship was written to be to immigrants to London who were bonding. And so the fact that a white actor was cast as Mr. Gruber kind of irked the original creators, because they had they would always have tea at elevensies. And I guess that, that was something that Paddington had done in Peru. That was on to London. And they were that was supposed to be their connection and that was like lost in translation in the movies. She literally just watched this movie yesterday. But I can you help me remember who Mr. Gruber is Jim Broadbent. He's the guy who has the store. Okay. Yes. Right. Yeah. No. That does feel like a role that they want you to believe is, like, someone who's not from the accent, and everything you. I think they wanted to get the credit of it being like a foreigner, but not actually give the role to a person who wasn't from the UK. Yeah. Yeah. So that was like the one thing that and I'm sorry, the editor of Paddington was a holocaust survivor, writer was not. But they were the two people who shaped the character, I see. And so that was one, which is better than most adept patients. Sure. That's Jamie's affects. I mean it's no cat facs with Caitlin. Are there cats and he's movies? There's no cats. Harsh. There's a dog in the second one but hard, dog and both of them. There's a dog. Yeah. Seen in the first one almost made me cry yesterday. I don't know why when he like picks it up and takes it on the escalators just before that the part where he likes steps escalator pulls his leg back. I almost I just started. He's so afraid right now, I don't know why. And then, like, also the scene at the end where he's climbing up with the vacuums and then like one of the vacuums stops. And he just starts falling towards the fire. I was like, oh, my what, what the fuck are. They do. I don't know what place. I'm in. I have multiple points in both of these movies. I, I kept, because we have like a Paddington bear toy at my house. When I was little, and I kept thinking that he was a toy and not an actual bear, which is certain points would make a big. Yeah, but I yeah, I kept forgetting that he was valuable thing. Thing actual bear, who came from Peru. Yeah. I guess I wanna talk a little bit more about each of the main female characters we get to know starting with MRs Brown, because she is kind of largely responsible for getting the story going like she's the one time, yes, she's the one who approaches Paddington at the station. She's the one who keeps challenging her racist husband to, like say, let's just help him. Like it's just for the night. Yeah. Why are they married? They have nothing in common doesn't make any sense. Judean jonathan. And then in movie, two in Paddington to it's Mary, who is a specially hell bent on trying to figure out who the actual thief is she's doing all the drying. She goes full Sarah caney. She's got a fungi pin like this means this means this year's it's like holy shit. She liked breaks and enters into Phoenix House. She really goes like full investigative reporter. Yeah. Yeah. Just like how active she is. And how much of a driving force she is to keep the narrative going in both movies in both times, like in spite of her husband, she is continuing to advocate for this bear who becomes her bare son. In the first one, she's like, I'm no. I love this bear. Also, he should be our son. And then the second I she's like he's our son now. Please stop being rude to prisoners, and she moves each time. Yeah. That's where like, Mr Brown, you can see he does inch forward as the plot goes on each movie, which is encouraging one thing, I do not love about that character. Is that he always gets a cathartic speech and moment for making a very basic human decision where he's like actually racism is bad. And every time like a white guy says that they like a standing, oh, and this movie kind of gives it to him. And this. It wins an Oscar and kind of the same thing in the second one. He has a little cathartic speech and every time that happens, you're just like your, your wife has been saying that for five hundred. Yeah. Jamie Mendy redeem themselves all the time. There is a moment in Paddington to where Mr. MRs Browner sneaking through Phoenix Buchanan house. And then they go to the attic and I see like all of the costumes, and then Mr Brown is like we were right? And then MRs Brown is like we write his it was only her, and he's trying to take credit for her work that felt like a little yellow bone thrown. Sure, I guess. I guess I just like that. Mrs Brown challenges her shitty lisp in all the time. It's true. But and there's an amendment in lake Paddington one, where toward the end there in the natural history museum, and he's like someone has to go out this window to save Paddington, and that someone is going to be me, and he does this display of kind of traditional like macho heroism. And then MRs Brown is like. You're such a man. She gets like all week at the knees which I felt was unnecessary. But then that doesn't really happen in Paddington to into the Seguin Mr Brown is like, I'm having a midlife crisis, and I'm getting old, and I wasn't promoted at work. So it's actually about his fragile male ego. Well, there's also a little to his credit like that he there's like a little tiny like he's passed over because he's older. That is the first time. He's been marginalized in his life. And it blows his fucking he becomes such an he's like, wait is sick. I can't hear for our fucking want. And then, and then he like, signing up for yoga classes, which I thought was funny. Yeah. Judy, we talked about her sort of, like linguistics skills, and the first movie and then like her interest in journalism, and the second one, I like how that character grows. Yeah. She and she and she might even be like a little more, integral to the plot than Jonathan is. But there are about equal and Jonathan, and the first one, like I in the first one, I was like, well, why do we know about, judy's romantic interest, and not Jonathan, but he's younger and then yeah, but then as he ages up, we don't really find out that much about, like, we don't get his equivalent of Tony week at J dog right, right? Dog might be equivalent of Tony. That's true. That's his. That's his. He's like, listen. I've hit puberty. He's he's like trying to impress this kid. But they like bump fists with the fair. Yeah. And spud bounce bounce. But what, what does them what are they trying to play? Cool too. This guy that he wants to be cool with. But it's like he wants to find common ground with this boy that he has a crush. I hope so. Oh, I, I mean, where's that fanfare? Not having ten three. Paddington is voiced by queer icon. Ben wishaw. Fame of cloud atlas. Oh, god. Remember him? An applause for Ben. Big cloud atlas room. Ben Wishaw isn't a movie. I think it's called perfume, or something portrait of a killer in which the final scene is an enormous orgy. And then up until that point, he has been murdering women and stealing their scent perfume out of icon icon, Ben wish off since we saw them like, yeah. He's the bear. Straight pipeline between those two. Hey, I'm Andy, if you don't know me, it's probably because I'm not famous, but I did start a men's grooming company called Harry's. 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I wanted to talk a little bit about the men dressing in drag, which happens in both movies hilarious. Bit flawless, nothing to say like such a staple in UK comedy, too and has been for like a Jillian. You're like I was unfortunately I wasn't surprised at all that, that happened. 'cause you're like if there's more than fifty percent, British people in the cast this will happen, and you will feel weird about it feels like it was always a moment where someone goes over to the record just like I was thinking, what we're just for this one, right? Yeah. Very that happens in ninety percent of movies made in this country. So we can do different. It'll be great. We're going to do very tastefully. Well, they sort of didn't in this movie. Fortunately, so in the first movie, Mr Brown dresses, as a cleaning lady to get into the geographers guild, and then when he and Paddington are telling the story doing the recap if you will, to the rest of the family, MRs Brown is that sounds so brave. Henry, you're such a man and Mr Brown is like older time for being boring and annoying. And there's a time for being a man in Paddington says Mr Brown just up as lady and someone stuck pins in him. And then the families like what in address what, what, what? And then Mr. browse, like, no. And then Paddington it did look like a dress. And then Mr Brown is a house coat. It was quite liberating actually. Right. So it ends on. You're like, well he it didn't. Yeah. I love. I will say I love how even in this bed taste joke. They find a way to paint. Paddington is like naive in a way where he's. Clearly, not in on the offensive part of the joke. Right. Like he contributes to this. But we still love him for. He's just like stating. He's an Kathy brilliant. It's, it's what every all right guy thinks I'm just saying facts saying. Sometimes that's bad. Actually, I didn't actually say that was offensive. I said, what bulking happened? Proof. Proof proof. What if patent? All right own. He's not. Okay. Okay. What did Paddington vote for on Brexit? Obviously, he's against Brexit. I know. But I think Mr Brown is like, oh, by the way. Against voting at all. No Paddington is very political. Only natural born citizens should be allowed to. What is having got radicalized on YouTube? Don't say in three Paddington logs in anyway. I'm nice guy, and the women don't seem to be interested in me. Paddington. As sexual actually this is single chats and becky's. It's the school, you're killing me. I'm dying. Okay. What if I told you that I can absolutely here, panicked saying, oh, cups of best. Okay. Anyway. So this scene, it we just described. It's like nother example of like a man presenting feminine in some way. And then like that being being leading for him. It's not the worst example, we've seen I'm thinking of like what women want where like Mel Gibson comes out, and all the stuff and then his daughter's like, and there's literally, some that are, you know, followed by dry heaving from the fragile it, right? Right, right. Like it gets really bad. This isn't as bad but it's still important. This is an aside. But did you know what women want cost seventy million dollars to make? Yes. But there was no scene in that movie that looks expensive. Well, the crews that they cut away to for no reason wrong that they cut away. James a cameo in that movie. And it's addressed really there's a scene where sorry, I'm on a totally different thing. Now. We're Mel Gibson is walking by the talk to Helen hunt, and they stop in the hallway and there's like a person there, who's waiting to talk to someone and it's James Cam don't talk to him. You don't know. He's there unless you are looking for him, but it's James Cameron. Honestly, I'm always looking for him. And I'm so embarrassed now. It's usually under the seat. So I don't blame you for not seeing then I saw like, I, I should've noticed him that's on directors and taking the back to Paddington. Listen to the guy who is like, into Mr Brown address, really look like Christopher Nolan. He co wrote the second movie that's like Simon Farner, be or something. So in that scene where Mr Brown is in drag, there is a man who pretty aggressively hits on Mr Brown dresses, a woman, I'm interested in like, what are queer listeners think about this? Because the same character comes back and Paddington to and he is very attracted to Hugh Grant dressed is none. I have chosen to. That it's either this character is either, just like very attracted to kind of mask women or that he's clear. And he doesn't really know it. Yeah. We've got to get a music stink to play under. I have chosen to thing. Do do. But both times like it's played as a joke and movie I to me, the joke isn't so much that it's like ooh, look how weird in wrong. It is that this guy is attracted to like a man in drag. It's more that just simply is attracted to a man. It's written. It's like written for laughs. It's written and I am coming from a place of being you know SIS head. So, right. We're interested in what are for sure. I keep feeling like I like. Indefens- of the more offensive position. But what I will say about this is it feels like at least in the second one, they played the joke more as the fact that he. Well, I guess it's still that's not great. But they play the joke more as like it's not. Oh, he's a woman as much as it is that like this man is like you are gorgeous woman like even the moment where he like runs away. And it's just like a stop that incredibly gorgeous woman. It feels like that becomes the joke of like incredibly, gorgeous as the part that you're supposed to laugh, that is it worse that they're like, oh, this person that he thinks the woman, and that we're supposed to believe is not beautiful is beautiful as the joke in which case, I'm like, well, that's also not great. Right. I don't know. I mean yeah I don't know. I'm not qualified to make the call. I don't know. Yeah. So we've got any people good Dan Paddington to complex? I wanted to talk a little bit about Lucy because she mostly exists off screen Paddington talks about her very lovingly all the time. She seems to have taught him everything that he knows about being like a polite considerate. Little bear in Bank to two. We learned that it's Lucy who, like spots baby Paddington, and unlike jumped and rescues him that maybe could be argued, what's another like very maternal instinct. She can't Care International move. Yes. She's like we're not going to London anymore. We have to raise a baby again in defense. Of you that move is sort of back ended by that moment, where she is like brisk in her life to go like to scale down into the Rapids to save a person it doesn't come. Oh, I must take care of this child until she realizes it's a child. It's just like a purely a move of generosity out of empathy fellow bear, right? Yeah. Passion and not maternal instinct, a what I choose to okay. And then the other thing I wanted to say about her was that I think it's tends to be more common for us to see if there's like a male character who has a relationship with family member in a movie. It's often with another male character. Like father and son, or uncle and nephew, something like that. So I like that. You see such a positive relationship between a male and female relative. I feel like we don't quite enough. I think that's true there. Yeah, I mean, I still, I still sort of like on the maternal trope wave here. But I do think I mean, it's interesting because in the first movie, especially, like there's a lot of attention paid to Paddington and Mr Brown trying to find their common ground. Whereas for MRs Brown, the common ground has never questioned. So there's really not as much of a journey for that relationship to take because they're always on the same page. That's not really as present in the bear thing, I feel like aunt, Lucy and uncle so. See they seem like more grounded in the allegory, then the Browns are a lot of the time because they're just like in it lists and their connected to his life in Peru. And a lot of it like I don't know the make me cry. So. She's like she is a prominent maternal figure in his life, but she also like represents his whole past life in Peru. And like she seems to like represent a lot of things to him and represent home-sickness. And also he can't write his uncle his uncle died. And so, yeah, the aunt Lucy thing that, that doesn't really I mean, she, she just symbolizes his whole childhood, and like everything is familiar and good. So, yeah, I don't know. I know I got I don't have any problem without Lucy. She's so nice. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? Paddington three would like allegory wise where do you see it extending to? Okay. So we didn't really talk about. I mean, like prison reform for Paddington to we didn't go into detail about this simply not time. No. But that it didn't three. Oh, gosh. I mean marriage equality. What are the issues, we can tackle padding to stop Brexit, like do we have time? Or is it like the wage gap? I mean, there's so much is it an abortion thing? Paddock someone pregnant. It's you'll right to choose Mr. Curry's, like, Nope. It shouldn't be right. To choose. Right. She can choose at hour and a half later Brown. She should have the right to choose. And we all clap. Set up. They set up like what they're good at. And how back in at the end in the beginning, for some reason they set up that Mr Brown is terrific, abortion, doctor. Just like weird weird setup. And then by the end. A house opening section Brown has taken to giving a bullshit stew. Out of his house. This no longer legal a house has become a bit of an abortion. Wait. Also slipping by the way in this world. It's a legal. Now, we got to raise the stakes in Paddington and also the world's. We didn't fully go into really quick with Millicent Nicole Kidman. Oh, I think this is like a villainous trope that we've come up against the bunch at this point. It's like in the same Leanne, as like Ursula to see which as science, Jason woman. Oh, yeah. Who is a little older. It does not seem to be in a romantic relationship has extreme daddy issues. And all this adds up to being a fucking murderer. Like that whole, it sucks. Because I mean that performance is so good. And the way the character plays out like I like watching that character, but they're so I like that. We get the context for her like this is why feel that way at least she's motivated, but yes, daddy. So it kind of ends up just kind of being a wash for the whig really should have gone in Oscar that said, though, her performance is. Yeah, if a woman had helped write this movie that would have been a better care, right? Because we I mean we've talked about this a little bit before but we, especially in children's movies, it seems or like family, targeted movies, because we see this in incredible to we see it in like you said, like little mermaid in any other like kind of hit in which she with a louder. Movie like female damage, Ason and not Dylan is often Oh, I wanted to briefly talk about MRs bird. Also, she's mostly seen vacuuming in the movie, but she often will like swoop in at the end in like do something significant I do like that. She kind of uses people's biases against old people against them, because like she shows up in the at the end of the first movie and like goes to the security guard in his like Hobo you help. For him old woman out of the cold, and like she's like, I'm not frail but he doesn't know that. And she like gets plastered. It's great very brave of there's one moment where she pulls a gun and then at the sight, gag because it's just foam like a nurse. She's going to shoot Hugh Grant in the head. She didn't know it was a fake gun. She she was ready to murder him. And. It was like a setup because she was like Huber gonna walk in. And then I will shoot him. She had a lot of time to think about right? I'm about to see a dead fucking. I'm still doing this. Yes. He's done it before she's pretty. Yeah. It was very premeditated. She walked like old friend. In the third Paddington movie, they should learn how to save Paddington bear name. Oh, there's weird. Via whatever. Well, it's like if we're going with the allegory of he's, he's immigrated to this country. They're immediately like. Yeah. Don't know how to say that your name is where we fucking are right now. The third movie they should learn how to say his goddamn name mister Brown tries. But he says something very rude, apparently, like the third movie to open with Mr Brown, just like very casually looking over, like a Rosetta Stone of how to do bear. And then, by the end, it's like okay he says it in a way that, like Paddington this helped right? I don't know if you're born, and then they're like, what's up? Brockton Samaritan Loftus. I see your point. I see I choose to think no. I think we shouldn't. Does anyone have any other final thoughts about either Paddington Mufi since I asked it? I now Mike, what would I want to happen in Paddington three? And this is just a Ernest pitcher, Paddington three. I think it would be great, if something happens Mr. curry like a minor offence that gets him brought into court, and they find out that he's from a different country. And he's going to get deported. Paddington is the one who's like, but mister curry is a part of our neighborhood. We have to save them. And everyone's like he's sucks. He's a fucking asshole. He's racist shit. Why would you do this? We'll because that's what we do. And we're part of a community, we look after even the worst parts because are we how any better than them? And basically goes around and gets a petition signed for mister curry to be saved and the entire time Mr. Kerrey still hang on at the end. He's just kind of like this is my friend. People. Yeah. Love that. Did anyone notice what appears to be the black lesbian couple who live nearby? I mean, they hardly say anything or do anything, but I was like that's sweet. Would have been so easy for them to pass the Bechtel test. They've been allowed to speak. Hello. Jennifer. We're lesbians, right? True passing. Move on. We'll speak of the Bechtel test. Yes. Starting with Paddington one does that pass that one does that one passes I think better than the second one. Yes, in Paddington, one, MRs Brown and Judy talk about a Victorian bathing pond. And they talk about the sewers this sewer exchanges so fun. Because I'm like, oh, this scene is passing, but they're talking about the sewers and more detail every time, you know, the sewers, she's like what the sewers under the ground. What the sewage under the grow we walk in them. Oh. Just girl. Yeah. Yeah. You know and then they're third interaction the passes about, like toiletries. So it's like bathroom based discussions, which is like oh, yeah. I think women should talk more about bathroom stuff. We talk about it a lot, you and I often extra sludge. Yeah. I refused to give Moore. And I also do too. Okay. And then MRs Brown and MRs bird talk about the weather at some point. Yes, and Paddington to how ever Pennington to is trickier. I think from a number of perspective, mainly because Paddington is not with women for most of this movie. He is in an all male prison is solving. The prison industrial complex risoners. It's like. More women were incarcerated in the UK, this really wouldn't have been an issue. But right. Right. But he like that is, like, I think one of the major things that prevents Paddington to from passing more. Yes, I agree. There's I think only one conversation that I found that pass, which was MRs Brown in Madame cost of talking about the pop up book, and then a about her grace name. We only know the last name costlo name. But still the context of that conversation station still like, oh, there's a bear who's been wrongfully incarcerated. How does. Yeah, I don't think the second one I was saying the second one didn't right? Because he only the other conversation of note was MRs Brown, MRs bird talking about actors being the most evil and vile people on the planet which true, but that station. Yeah. Has about Phoenix. Pecan also about. It's a meta joke about the fashion of acting and in that sense. It's actually brilliant could pass. They're talking about Hugh Grant there. I'm I'm ruining Paddington. I'm sorry. The first one passes. Yeah. A lot. Yes. Paddington around women for most of the movie right in a good way around each other, though. And they don't they're so focused on helping Paddington. That's the only thing that they're doing, it's weird because it's like the women in the movie are mostly doing investigative journalism, the whole movie, but the subject of their story is a male bear. So like walking you do. Here's my question when I describe movie as a motherly figure mostly doing investigative work to release an improperly incarcerated family member, my talking about Paddington to, or if Beale street could talk. The question of the century or green book. Green, but the second one is streak. Yes. Okay. Better for it. Yeah. That's just proof that it improved over time. Yeah. Yeah, I love when franchises slowly. Learn these by piece one we'll have like a, a light drag scene. Let's rate, the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its representations women's. This is tricky, because it is the best franchise of her made. That's exactly what people, I can't tell you. How often I say that? And people still think I'm joking. It happens all the time. I know it's got like better hit rates in the godfather, like I don't know, sixty six percent of the godfather movies occur at one hundred percent of the Paddington movies are good. That's true. So your bullshit. Yeah. Yes, I, I love these movies. I'll give it a three. I mean, they are like allegories for important topics, and I suppose a way that is more digestible to most audiences just because it's like there's a cute bear. But the female characters like we said, they're playing an active role in the story from start to finish. They are equipped with, like skills and interests that are important to the story. But, you know there's those kind of weird moments where the men in drag and how that's kind of mishandled. There is the villain ization of woman in stem, so three nipples and I know how many nipples does a bear have. Three I'm gonna give. My nipples. We'll go to Paddington. I'm also going to go. Three nipples. I mean, it's so much of the movie is literally Paddington. Yeah. That every female character is by nature going to be a supporting role there are there are those little things that you're talking about the bugged me, there was like, making sure that the teen girl had a romantic narrative thing than it was like, oh, whatever, didn't that didn't impact the story, literally at all right? But in general, I mean it's like it's a lovely franchise, and I felt the messages that it has are so there's not a social Justice franchise for children. That is active besides this one. It's like it's an I mean, the movies are great. I'll give three nippy gonna give one to Sally Hawkins wanna Paddington and went to the fish from the shape of water. All right. Nips. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I didn't realize that. Okay. Yes. All right. I'm going to give the total recall, three nips. I think that I think that like, again, like you said, centering this movie around a male character does sort of mean that a lot of it's going to skew male. But I also think that they're like, smaller parts of the dynamics that I'm kind of impressed by how the family unit. It feels like a lot of movies early. Just a lot of things won't put like a group together where the balances upset by the number of women being more than the number of men because that's that's feminine group then and for it to be like that with the family before they like adopt Paddington into the circle does feel like a thing that it's like, oh, that means they're gonna focus more on women characters when this family becomes a part of the movie, and I think that's very cool. But I also think that it's like when they started this at felt like they definitely. Yeah, we're gonna make this a franchise. So for them to be like, well, the first run out, we are still gonna make. The villain. A woman does feel like the kind of like quote unquote, risk that Hollywood people would be like, yeah, we'll get the diversity in there, if we get another one, but this has got to be a man like for them to be like, none of which is going to we're going to have like Nicole Kidman play like wacky woman feels like something I would be surprised to see any other franchise often. I mean we've talked about this, too, that if there's a movie with a female villain. It's usually in a movie that also has a female protagonist to see movie where like could a woman, pose a threat to a male hair. Richter woman, pose a threat to a tiny bear. Wave questions being asked. I agree. It does feel like seeing that dynamic, and not in, like a sort of, like fem towel sort of way, where it's like she's going to fuck the protagonist and that's that's why she's the building. I think. Gonna. There was a draft. But yeah, I, I don't know. I think it, it still has a ways to go, and they do give a lot of the focus to the male characters the franchise, but they also it's like, are we rating this against the average movie or we rating against like the idea of a perfect film? Oh man. I five is like our perfect. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I yeah, I think three it's like it does a little bit better than the average film does. But I also think it has glaring things like still trek stuff. You like two times. Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining it. Where can people follow you online? Would you like to plug? I would love to plug this charge Marlin. Listening, my pocket or the entire show. It is getting a little warm, but it's, you know, it's good in any in any sense, smucker's gorgeous. I gotta shut out the brand. You can follow me at Electrolux, pretty much anywhere. Listen to punch up jam my good. You've both been on with wonderful guests for doing that. And you know, go for a walk sometime. Enjoy treat yourself. Nice. Yeah. Self care. Thank you so much for coming to. Caitlyn. That was our show. Yes, the Paddington show you again to our wonderful. Guess Demi did we bay so great? Please listen to his podcast punch the jam and truly just anything that he does. He's wonderful so good. Thank you so much to stand who knew for recording the show friend of the pod Boras friend of the podcast, thanks to everyone who came out to see the show and in a special things to anyone who brought a donation for project caged bird. Yes, we have slightly. You guys are the best. And thank you to the ruby, is always, there were be for having us staying. And now for the regular business, you can find us online on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. If you're still on Facebook, why are you still on Facebook? What's going on? You can find us at back cast on all of those platforms. Yes, you can subscribe to our patriot aka matron are Paddington tree on that one. Didn't really work. No mom, but I tried. And that's all that matters. I did the bear maximum our new design I like the bare maximum. I just I'm make the bear maximum. Okay. Okay. Okay. Good. Thank you. So you can buy that shirt, someday soon on our T public store t public dot com slash the backdoor cast. And then back to the matron plug you can go to patriots dot com slash Bechtel cast and sign up for our matron, which is two bonus episodes, every single month and plus are back. Backlog of all of our existing matron episodes nearly fifty bonus episodes. If you burn through the main feed, there's more this month, we did into the spider verse. And we are also even upcoming matron episode about who framework to rabbit. Yes, because it was my birthday month selection. That's what I picked we did. Cartoons. I I'm going to do a quick plug. If you're an international listener living in just like Paddington listens to the podcast. All residents of the UK are cordially invited. I'll be at the end, bro. Fringe festival of August doing my show boss, whom girl. So if you're around there, perhaps, they'll be some vital cash as well. We don't know we're, we're been on it. That's a tease. I'm going to go to Paddington station while I'm there, I'm just going to roll around on the ground. I'm just gonna soak it up. And then someone's gonna show up and be like, we've got a Dopp this door. Please look after this woman. And someone will take me home. So yeah, look out for all of that. And thanks for listening everyone. Thank you for indulging me in letting me do this Paddington episode it was a gift. I had two time. I love these movies, so. Okay. Bye. Wondered how the smartest marketers pet through the noise. I'm Bob hitmen chairman and CEO of iheartmedia on my new show. Math and magic. I'm sitting down with the day's most gift that this ruptures. But when I did this people thought I was crazy. There are really no other rules aside from, you know, full frontal nudity go out there and do it. 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