20 Episode results for "Sandy Weill"

Carlyles David Rubenstein, Mega-Bank Architect Sandy Weill, & a Blast from Warren Buffetts Past

Squawk Pod

35:42 min | 10 months ago

Carlyles David Rubenstein, Mega-Bank Architect Sandy Weill, & a Blast from Warren Buffetts Past

"This CNBC podcast is sponsored by capital group home of American funds. Their long-term approach helps you say I can't find a firm with nearly ninety years of experience navigating market volatility visit capital group dot com slash market volatility. American Funds Distributors Inc... This squawk pod I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer today. Our podcast David Rubenstein, the Carlisle founder and Co Chair and major philanthropist on US economic recovery as Covid, nineteen fears surged with new case numbers I think the bottom has been hit i. don't think it's GonNa get deeper in terms of a recession. What we have now I think we're coming out of it. Executive priorities from former head of City Group of. Of the father of Big Banking Wall Street Legend Sandy Weill CEO has three real responsibilities. One is to their employees have a safe environment to work in the second is to a responsibility to their shareholders, and they're. They have a social responsibility that really hasn't worked as well as it should have and addressing American inequality through education and internships. wiles work with NASA the National Academy Foundation CEO JD Hoy. Companies leading. We need more we need. More companies will link to say highschool students matter in our long-term diversified pipeline strategies, the future, those stories plus a blast from buffet past the Oracle of Omaha as a young man on the move. Maybe the stock market has really correcting a previous incorrect gas this time rather than making a new correct one. It's Friday June. Twelfth Twenty Twenty squawk begins right now. Good morning, everybody welcome to Squawk box here on. CNBC I'm becky. Quick along with Joe Kernan and Andrew Ross Sorkin and we're going to start this morning with the markets. This comes a day after the Dow plunged more than eighteen hundred points or six point nine percent, and believe it or not. It's only the biggest drop we've seen since March. Tells you just a little bit. Bit about how volatile these markets have been in recent months. If you've been watching what happened, we had been talking at the beginning of the week about how the Dow over six winning sessions that ended on Monday. Over that period of time it really racked up some phenomenal gains. It was a gain of two thousand, one hundred eighty nine points well, since then we've given. Given all of that back and then some on Tuesday. We lost three hundred points for the Dow on Wednesday. We were down by two hundred and eighty two and then yesterday the market was down by one thousand, eight, hundred sixty one points. You add that up. It's a decline of two thousand four hundred forty three points, so all of that crowned. We had gained over the. The previous sessions being given back, and this was really something to watch. We had seen those heavy losses early in the morning when we were looking at it, but that just accelerated throughout the course of the day I think everybody was kind of on tenterhooks as we were watching to see what happened at four PM Yesterday. How many times did you look at the? Stock Market yesterday between two thirty and four. Just just just wondering seconds. Are there on a day? Like Entire time when you when you've seen no I'm not going to talk about the past, but when you've seen things. Here I go, but when you've seen things. No like nine, hundred, eighty, seven or something like that. You just never know or even what we had earlier this year I mean. Because anything's possible when when it gets like A. Snowballing when we were I knew was not going to stop at eight, hundred, nine, hundred, two, thousand, seven hundred, and this is going to go. I thought we were headed for two for for a while, but I'll tell you what I was watching. Honestly I was watching the Dow. Because it's a at a high level, those points just add up to where you just have the sickening thanks when I was watching the SNP. And one thing that I was taking some solace from was that it was holding above three thousand I was thinking three thousand. We all would have signed on for three thousand like two months ago, we all would have for a year and three thousand and anybody said three thousand. It was like wow, you're you're off awfully optimistic. I'm not saying we're out of the woods. By any means I did feel a little better after reading the Wall Street Journal's OP. Ed Pages today where they go, and and go deep into the numbers in Arizona and Texas and Florida with their lead editorial and you know I. Don't know whether the the they're not necessarily. Sugar coating things, but they did point out some factual things that we need to consider even Scott Gottlieb said. It's not a second wave. It's sort of states that didn't go through the first way so I I don't know. I was thinking about Europe Europe has been. Somewhat successful. In reopening right there about two weeks ahead of us a month ahead of us or so, and they have not had the worst case scenario right I mean. Is there still hope I? Hope? There's still hope I'm hopeful that there's some there's always hope. Joining us right now to talk about. Don't where we are in this economy is David. Rudenstine Carlisle Group Co founder and Co Executive Chairman David. It's great to see you. I don't know if we've had an opportunity to talk during this pandemic, so let's start with the basics. How are you thinking about our economy right now and where you think we're all headed? I think the bottom has been hit. I don't think it's going to get deeper in terms of a recession than what we have now I think we're coming out of. Of It I think people. Can Oath react and I think there has been some reaction from time to time clearly, the economy body blow. We haven't had anything like this regeneration by I. Do think we're on our way back and they'll be some gyrations up and down as we go through this next couple of months, but I think generally economies veasley would shave. Looking over the next six to nine months or so, but it's not going to be. A while to get back to where we were at the height of the of the Bull Market, David tells you you. You have a wide portfolio of companies. And you have your fingers. In a lot of different industries, a lot of different places just just give us a little bit of a snapshot, a sense of what you're seeing right now. In terms of those businesses while clearly business in the United States are down right now, and in many different categories, obviously, technology companies companies are going okay, China is coming back. Europe is not as weak as some people in the United States thing the emerging markets or have some struggle because of their se going against the dollar their currency might have some challenges, but generally I think the worst has been as heard already and I think we're heading back but again. The down the next couple of months and I. Think the oath not overreact to the the news about the virus being bigger here, raking out there on the economy is now reasonable shape and it. It's not going to be perfect for sure, and there are a lot of people out of work, but I think we're heading back to where we wanna be going to take some time to get there. I was lemass goes as an investor. What were you doing a month or two ago? And what do you anticipate trying to do in the next several months and in terms of putting money to work? Work while in the world in which I am were involved private equity as opposed daily trading up private equity, people have been making certain companies they already own are in reasonable shape. We learned from the last recession. You have to shore up what you already own and a lot of people have been doing that may not have enough witty enough cash they they might need some additional equity. They might need some additional debt, but we've been focused that I. Think as we get to the next phase of this. You're going to see people buying more and more companies that they don't already own probably at. At prices that seem a little bit cheaper than they would have been about six months ago. Well, that's GONNA. Ask You though how do you? How do you feel about valuations? Because while you are playing in the private markets, the private markets I imagine are going to try to reflect the public markets, and despite this little blip that we've had in the past twenty four hours and we'll see whether it. It gets better or worse. You know as we've been talking about. It's almost as if the virus didn't happen. While the markets had a public markets have probably been ahead of where the economy is. Is for awhile, but the public market says you know our floor indicator from time to time the markets may get excited, but generally I think the economy has probably bottomed out from where it was going to go I. Think it's heading back and as head back to work, we should recognize that you can get a fair amount of work done at home and I also think people recognized that economy isn't going to be the same me new before. Everybody's not going to come back to work. It was hired before off. Some people work from home. Some companies are not going to be a success. And some will be more successful than were economies of all. The worst part is probably behind us, but I don't WanNa. Make it sound as if I i. do think there's going to be challenges buying forward but I. Don't think there's any reason attic. Federal Government is as good a job as you can probably expect up putting and what it ends of the economy. That's made it possible to be where we are today. That's what I was. GonNa ask You A. Are you of the view that we're gonNA need more stimulus money. From from Congress, and what you the Federal Reserve is or isn't going to do going forward. I think the congress is likely past one more stimulus bill somewhere in the one and a half, trillion dollar range would be my guess. Probably sometime in July would be what I would says. It's Mac and have many components of the programs. We already seen some of the ones that have worked successfully I think they'll be some assistance to the states and local governments I do think that there will be some. Additional alone programs and I do think that some of the issues that have been addressed will probably raised again these bills, not all liability issues probably be taken care of I think the Federal Reserve recognizes that it is a key player, and it is the maybe the key player I think they've done a wonderful job of putting it into the market, and and I think that's been great help when I think they are prepared to do more if necessary and I suspect they will. I wonder if you can kind of talk through what you see, the long term impacts of being potentially from this, there are a lot of companies that have seen their business evaporate Some of them are going to be okay. Some of them will get loans. Some of them are not going to be okay and I think hurts as kind of a case. In point, it's business disappeared. It's got all kinds of issues and ask you about that. Just because you know the company. I know it's been all the way back to two thousand and thirteen since she sold her remaining stake in that it hurts and lots of other similar companies that have seen if you think travel and leisure, any of those companies, the airlines that have seen business shutdown. Maybe the airlines are different because they get funding from the government, but those are the ripple effects that I think we're all still trying to figure out how this plays out what it means a not only for those businesses that closed, but for the employees that go under as a result. Of capitalism evolves, and every company isn't going to go forward perfectly when you have not so clearly, the leisure industry, cruise, ships and hotels. And Airlines have been hurt. I don't think they're going to go out of business. But the the ones that will go out of business probably are the small. Companies other words, Marriott and Hilton and get enough credit. Go forward, and they will come back. They have brands. The people that actually own those hotels. Of opposite might own one or two hotels. They're going to struggle with that. And that's that's a big problem and they I don't think easy answer for that, but economy will evolve, and every company is not gonna come back as strong as it was, and some of these. You've never heard of before I zoom. Much stronger. I don't think that the mistake that was made in the great recession and the Great Depression was made here the Great Depression. They raised interest rates, and the federal government did very little here. We've learned the lesson of the great recession which you need. Federal Stimulus of these enemies keep dying I think the federal government's pretty. Parts of. All the people out of work now that it's it's. They'RE GONNA get their job back quickly. It's GonNa. Take some time for people to come back normally. When you have a recession, it takes about three years to get back to the peak where you were before the recession, and it might take about three years before we get back to where we were before. Before we went into this recession and David. We often think of you as one of the ultimate Washington. Insiders to the extent that this pandemic and the unrest and protests in this country have taken place during this period. How do you see this playing out politically in the fall, and even even beyond that? Clearly, the racial unrest on tension is something that is. We didn't expect. There have been these kind of incidents and killings before, and it hasn't produced the worldwide revolt and protests. We've seen so. This is a real wake-up as it should be, and I think the federal government will do more and society will do more to improve the racial relations, but we're not going to overnight. Solve all racial problems. That's for certain but I. I, do think it's a wake up. Call that nobody probably expected, and for that reason I think there's some good that can come out of this 'cause the discussions between blacks and whites. I now see going on in organizations that I'm involved with or know about is a healthy thing, but I don't WanNa make it sound like everybody is all of a sudden GonNa Change. At they had allies and everybody's been a be perfectly up. Handling Racial relations that's not going to happen, but I do think it's an improvement and we have a potential. Really make a real. Improvement, and where we have been for many years. Do you want to given the economy and the way you think attended? You want handicap. The situation November well I would say it's depends on where the economy is the time of the election, but as we know when you have a recession presence tend not to get reelected so If we're in a recession, then it'll be, it'll be more difficult. When I worked for Jamie car, we had a recession. Get reelected, Gerald Ford. Ford and didn't get reelected. In a recession to Walker Bush, you'd get reelected. Recession William McKinley was last president elected in recession. Most economists think will be out of the recession by the time the election. The won't be a perfect poverty will be technically probably out of the recession or close to it, so it's hard to say, but I think the next four or five months are just going up and down a bit and I just think it's very difficult to predict. David great to see you. Thanks for joining us this morning. Thank you my pleasure? Next unsquashed pod Wall Street legend. Sandy Weill, the former Citigroup group chairman, who built the modern megabank is reinventing classrooms across America and later Joe. You know what you said about. Watching these things as a heat up and knowing. That, it's not going to end well, and then it's going to continue. We're going to show you some sound that popped up on twitter yesterday. of Warren Buffett back in nineteen, sixty two the day after the flash crash when the markets are biggest point drop at least since the Great Depression and SPEC in nineteen, sixty two. He was thirty one at that point, and you listen to what he had to say. That I'd never seen video from before I'd seen pictures of on, but I'd never seen media to be to be good. Look forward to that. He was probably similar to what he says now when there's A. Million Ten fifteen minutes? We'll give you. It. We're back after this. This NBC PODCAST is sponsored by Capital Group home of American funds. Their long-term approach helps you say I can't find a firm with nearly ninety years of experience navigating market volatility visit capital group DOT, com slash market volatility. American. Funds Distributors Inc... squawk pod with Joe Kernan becky quick and Andrew Ross. Sorkin here's Becky. As America continues to real from its twin crises of civil unrest and the corona virus. Our next guest say that education actually holds the key to creating a more equitable society. Brookings calls the US education system. What are the most unequal in the industrialized world where students have vastly different experiences based on their social status? Joining us right now is Sandy Weill. He is the architect of the modern day. Day Big Banks. He's the former Citigroup. CEO and chairman former president at American Express and the founder and chair at NAFF JD. Hoy is the CEO of NAFF and welcome to both of you. Sandy I hope that given what we've seen in the markets yesterday. You don't mind if I ask a couple of questions about what you're thinking right now with the economy just based on what we're saying. Okay, Great. Santa First of all. It's good to see you. It's been far too long, but we've been watching. The financials get hammered just about as much as any other industry. That's out there right now. That's because we think we're GONNA see zero interest rates for forever essentially, and because we're worried about the fallout from the virus and the economic shutdown. If you were looking at this looking at the financials, do you think they have been unduly hammered at this point or do you think that they're down? They're down with good reason. I F-. I understand that I. Don't have any inside information. But. I do think that the financial industry is in very good shape. This time and I think that the stocks are selling. Out of them well below book value, some of them have created different models and. For, example, I think. Companies like Morgan Stanley and Schwab are really very good buys for the long term because they really represent the building up of assets recurring income I think they've made a lot of very smart moves, and and the stocks are really really cheap to the potential. I think that the industry is in good shape. And we got to see what's going to happen, but I would expect. They come out of this and. We will make some decent amount of money on. An inch companies including some property casualty jumpings. Let's talk a little bit about what we have seen from the big banks to to this point, and that's tens of billions of dollars that they're taking and. Loss loan reserves and getting ready for what could be a very difficult. Let's say a year two years even to come. If you listen to some of them on their conference calls, they talk about how to recession could last out to twenty twenty one sandy if you were still running a bank, would you be that conservative as well? I. Think thanks will always have that be responsible. So I would assume in hope that they're not making loans with the understanding that they can't be paid back. I think that our government? Both the Federal Reserve and and the Congress and the. Presidential Operation! Really have done a lot to. Try and get the system back on track. The Federal Reserve's balance sheet has increased from less than two trillion dollars to over seven trillion dollars already, and they're adding to that by the rate of about twenty million dollars a day. So I think on their way to ten billion dollars, and that that money has to be put to work in certain places and Stocks paying a lot higher. Rates and dividends than. You can get on a short term government bonds. So. I'm hopeful that we're on the right track. What do you think of what we've heard from Jay? Pal about how they'll be keeping interest rates at zero for for quite some time to come, and no one's really pushed it there yet. The you think it's possible. We see negative interest rates in this country. I think it's great that we have the head of the says that is not an economist and I think he's been really really terrific. And how fast the active! And I think that really is put us in a position to Able to do better than people could have expected. In, recovery I think the fact that leaves the now embraced a public private partnership where the government is working with. The Pharma companies and the biotech companies to come up with solutions to the covid nineteen, both in the form of medications, as well as vaccines, and what appears to be happening in a very very fast way is making an enormous amount of progress in that direction. Let's shift gears a bit and talk about why you were booked to come on in the first place, and that's to talk about Af Naff, which originally started out as National Academy Foundation. Jd. Thank you for being with us this morning to sand lake. Let let's just talk a little bit about what this is. Why you found it at and and what you've been trying to do at now. Well, we started Nafta one thousand, nine, hundred eighty in New York City with one high school, Brooklyn. And basically it was started to try and encourage our education system in New York to teach young people about the opportunities in the financial industry and how that works. because a lot of companies were thinking about moving their back office out of the city at that point in time. And we created a partnership that worked with the board of Education, and and NAFF, and also with the teachers, unions and the teachers unions are. The beginning, encouraged teachers to take courses in the financial industry that they knew something about what they were going to go what they were going to go teach and over the next forty years we've expanded from that one school in Brooklyn to about six hundred and some odd academies, and in Thirty Two states, hundred twelve thousand students, and expanded the subjects that we teach from financial services and second hospitality and tourism to engineering information technology, and Health Sciences which aware a lot of jobs are so about two thirds of students in stem type programs. Are Students that get to the ninth grade to the twelfth grade rather ninety nine percent on graduate about eighty five percent. Go on onto college, so we really believe that. Mentorship and And and summer internships are really an important part of a young person's education. And companies now feel the men Business Roundtable. seddon, a lot of companies, CEO's and said. That they really think that they have a social responsibility to work with the part of of the American population that really does not have an has not had the opportunity to learn about the future of digitisation, and what's happening in our economy. So I I think that we're really in a terrific place. I think it's about time that companies understood that it's much more. It's just as important to have social responsibilities, as it is to have a responsibility to shareholders to employees. He's and I think that for that statement to work I. Think the CEO's of companies have to be involved. And because they are really the leaders, and that's what leadership is about leading subject by this that has not been focused on as much as it should be. As well as coming up with a way to grade people so that their trump and sation is based not just on how they do as far as creating financial of profits, but and new products, but also what they're doing and being socially responsible, and and getting the underserved to participate in our economy, and I think as part of that it's very important for corporate America to give high school students summer internships, even though the the students are younger than eighteen, but very very eager and. And, by doing that, they're opening the students is that they will WanNa. Go to college and get the kind of education that will give them a chance of being successful and participating in the Great, American Experiment J. D.. Here from from students who you talk to in these programs. What are you watch? They kind of go through the four years. And then how many of them do you hear back from wants to go onto college and beyond we, we have a really nice alumni network, and we have some great examples of students have been highly successful by using the Career Academy framework to connect I think the real magic. The real brilliance in what's Andy. Put Together for NAFF. NAFF in forty years ago is that this is a partnership? This is not waiting for schools to get their work done, and then employers hire people they want. This is an opportunity for employers and schools to work together with communities and inspire young people. They engage war officially informally in their education, and also in their career planning. I can't tell you. The number of young people who say they just. They had no idea of what it was like. To work for a given company, and it's changed, their aspirations changed their viewpoint and from the company's perspective. They have been thrilled. Getting the future consumer's viewpoint into their work and covert has. Put us on head that I mean it's and we've been talking for thirty years about the importance of technology, and how we need to do better while Kovic, Schuttler schools down and we I am very concerned that we have to leave in hard and fast right now to make sure that we do not lose the gains that we've made in education, and we need to amplify technology. Get access in activity to every student and part of that can be tied to internships. It could be done virtually or doing it now. Where where is that happening virtually now? Because that that's been another big question about corona virus that. Schools that that have the money were already set up, and had their kids already had laptops and schools. That didn't have the same review. Right and so. His brilliance rate, it's the brilliance of Sandy's design of saying partnerships matter by bringing companies to the problem. Bringing companies in solve the problem identify where there are gaps, bring companies into help build the pipeline, and we have companies leaning in. We need more we need. More companies will link to say high school students matter in our long-term diversified pipeline strategies for the future. Not, GonNa, wait till college students get the internships going to start earlier and we're gonNA. Make sure that we inspire them around our work and take advantage of the brilliance. They bring to the table Sandy. I've I've a management question for you. Sandy based on a comment. You had made earlier when you were talking about inequality in the move towards stakeholder capitalism. I've talked to a number. CEO's throughout this pandemic. WHO said look? We're realizing that maybe we can do more with less meaning we maybe we don't need as many employees out. We can be productive with less employees and yet many of them have signed onto the business roundtable. Pledge and the like. which puts employees on, puts it on par with shareholders, but also or other companies saying do I cut my dividend, or do I, cut employees, and so the question I ask you. What are you doing? This type of environment on these type of thorny questions. I think a CEO of a company as as I said before three real responsibilities, one us to their employees to have a safe. Environment to work in and to do the right thing. The second is to a responsibility to their shareholders. They don't. Do well in that regard. They're not going to be able to raise the monies in public markets that again a need to grow the company in the future and there they have a social responsibility that really hasn't worked as well as it should have. Because a lot of CEO's turn it over to somebody else in the company at a lower level, and they don't really need it themselves. When I was running city group, we had over two hundred interns MB summer. Summer and the places that those interns worked in our company, the Morale Net division word in that office was much higher, and the productivity was much better than any other place, because the people felt that they were really doing something good to make make their company better and make an appeal better about themselves. Hey, Jay I'll ask you one more question. Just about things you've tried that have worked and things you've tried that. Maybe haven't worked just for other businesses that. That are watching maybe try to figure out how they could go along with this and and what they could do, either in house a reaching out to you sure so one of the big I think what's worked and continues to work is designing strategies together. I mean I think one of the big problems. We have especially in this cove moment. Where people have been shut down, they can't meet together. Is People try to throw? It is out in launch things. Things independent of one another, and and I think what we've learned in the process with the power of this design of bringing industry based content into an educational experience that it is the relevance of what is currently the current reality of work. Not Maybe what we did ten years ago so I think what we've really learned is that we have to plan this and build this together and Sandy Kozel under the auspices of leadership, and it's clearly important leadership matters. And building these designs together so that community leaders. Look elected officials. School leaders in business leaders are all leading in on the same objective around young people. Success I think is the real win that we've seen the losing strategy that we see I think. Is everybody wanting to start their own thing? And I think one of the things that we pride ourselves on is our willingness to partner with others. And make sure that we get to all the students who need this and not worry so much about being solely our brand, but working in partnership with others to do the right thing for our communities and our people I think we can take our organization to have a million students involved every year rather than one hundred twelve thousand, and that would really make a difference. Sandy I I'm so impressed with what you've built the idea that you had this vision for years ago to see it in so many places I wanNA. Thank you both for being with us today. Sharing these solutions and we hope to talk to you both again soon. Thank you very much. Next what goes around comes around the Oracle of Omaha. First TV interview a match L. Mr Buffet. Can you give us? Your opinion, just exactly what happened? What caused it was? Undoubtedly some forced selling the the weeks. Go One. The stock market hit the news. Will be right back. You're listening to Squawk pod from CNBC. Here's Becky quick. Welcome back everybody. Those who failed to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We're GONNA. Show you a clip of an interview with Warren Buffett from May, twenty, nine, nine, hundred and sixty two. That was day after what was called the flash crash. That's a day in which the Dow lost five point eight percent, and at that point in time this was the biggest point loss that they had seen. Since the Great Depression this of course was before people had a Bloomberg terminal or the internet or TV stations that would give you in access to stock prices only ticker tapes. Tapes could do that and there was so much volume on that day that it actually took the tapes hours after the close that day to print all the trade. People had no for probably three hours after the close. How much money they'd actually lost on that day, so you can imagine what they were feeling and watching as this ran up again, this was a bigger drop that we'd seen percentage wise yesterday, but back then it was a pretty big deal, and it was a pretty significant move. Here's what Warren Buffett said the next day when when he was interviewed on camera. Has Been a good forecaster from time to time in the past it also has been rather poor forecaster occasionally, for example, the last four or five years, the stock market has been booming along and presumably forecasting better business, which was really not materialized corporate profits. Are Not any better than they were five years ago, but stock prices are fifty percent higher thereabouts about. so maybe the stock market has really correcting a previous incorrect forecast time rather than making a new correct one. In fact, this happened in the midst of what was called the Kennedy slide, the S. and P. Five hundred from December of one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, one through June of nineteen, sixty, two, twenty, two, and a half percent, so that was a huge drop in the midst of a massive slide, and a lot of uncertainty that was there at the Bay of Pigs invasion and other things that were happening, but after that. If you watched what happened, there was a huge SNP boom. Boom that took place in the years and years to come after that so a big run up from that time on just goes to show that these things come these things go and the stock market confound just about anybody at any given point guys again I had seen old pictures of Warren Buffett before I'd never heard him speak before a lot of the mannerisms are the same, and and just to point out. He was thirty one years old when he did that interview. and a wonder. Probably say if I knew now. I knew that you know he's thirty one. How much does he learn? I mean? He has learned a lot obviously so I. Guess we shouldn't assume that he's the same person is now, but that was pretty. It was pretty good analysis there and Prussian but. You figure between thirty one and where he is now. How many things? Iron and put into you know. Put a news brain to come up with a lot of the things that comes up with now. He probably interesting to talk. About about what he was like back then what he was thinking that mistakes hadn't made yet things he hadn't learned yet. Yeah one of the things he's learned is don't come on and do television interviews. Like this? Remember what I was doing at thirty one. I don't think it was good. Definitely wasn't on TV talking about investments. Investments A. Partnership he had just put it together in January that year and I think he had seven million dollars. He was managing at that point. So? That was mostly friends and close family that he'd put together with it, I guess I was cold, calling no, that I think about it was. Calling prospecting. Anyway using all those Dale Carnegie. Lines you guys ever take their Carnegie. Should, I go to break now, but buffet go to break now or would be five minutes now. Would that be better for you Andrew? The alternative will anyway. And that squad thank you for listening today. And for another week the thirteenth of remote podcasting thanks for sticking with us and our social distance as well as zoom, skype and phone interviews squawk box is hosted by Joe. Kernan becky quick and Andrew. Ross sorkin tune in weekday mornings on CNBC at six am eastern, and to get the smartest takes, and malices from our TV show right into your ears. Subscribe to Squawk. pod Wherever you listen will be back here on Monday. Have a good weekend. This CNBC podcast is sponsored by capital group home of American funds. Their long-term approach helps you say I can't find a firm. With nearly ninety years of experience navigating market volatility visit capital group DOT. COM Slash Market Volatility American Funds Distributors Inc..

CEO David Rubenstein Kernan becky United States City Group Warren Buffett CNBC Federal Government Sandy Weill Sandy Federal Reserve founder NAFF CNBC Omaha
Gorman's Model Reaps Rewards for Morgan Stanley: Whalen

P&L With Pimm Fox and Lisa Abramowicz

31:34 min | 6 months ago

Gorman's Model Reaps Rewards for Morgan Stanley: Whalen

"This podcast is brought to you by HP engineering experiences that amaze HP creates technology with purpose to make life better for everyone everywhere learn more at hp dot slash sustainable impact. Welcome to the Bloomberg markets podcast on hall. Sweeney along with my co-host upon quint every day we bring you interviews from the does market pros and Bloomberg experts along with essential market-moving news time the Bloomberg markets podcast on Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts and on Bloomberg Dot Com. Let's bring somebody in who knows a lot about Morgan Stanley and condense construct a little bit what's going on with the big banks right now, and that is Chris Falen Chris Throat have you and You heard what some of Mr Pusan's said. You know obviously, there's going to be A. Good face put forward. But what are the problems that you see being stored up in the banks for down the road when some of all of source out Well. For Morgan Stanley. You know it's a great quarterback on me and I think they are one of the few franchises this quarter that are reporting up revenues across the board as John was just saying, he doesn't have a lot of credit risk and interestingly he didn't talk about it. But one of his great strength is that bank holding company doesn't have to go out into the market and res Net funds they have such a big deposit base now that they are actually a net provider of funds among banks. Totally, different from Goldman Sachs, which has very high dependence on the money markets to fund themselves. So asset management, the strong Investment Bank, plus they have liquidity in the background, which is Great. Is that part of the reason why they believed Eaton Vance though Chris is that make sure that that stays the case. Eaton Vance gives you two things. Funny. It gives you the A UM assets under management which generates fees. That's a very stable leg for the stool. He has cash he has yes at management business which pays you every quarter and then the investment bank which can fluctuate right. So they get the assets under management but with that a UM comes deposits from those high net worth customers and remember Morgan Stanley's got a very broad wealth management business. They don't just have very rich people. They have all sorts of people different from Goldman. You know trillion in a Goldman and over a trillion now in Um Morgan Stanley or two different businesses, very different profile. Bank that had always been the buying of you know the the volts if you like the fortress balance-sheet been J. P.. Morgan is Morgan Stanley's giving them a run for their money at this point. No? No. No Jamie Dimon Scott. Well over two trillion dollars in court deposits Morgan Stanley. It's a little Siva trillion and total assets funny and it's about forty percents funded by bank deposits. So in other words, they're banks inside Morgan Stanley can lend to the broker dealer on an arm's length basis. You know they have to be price like the market but that's a huge huge huge Jamie diamond is like a country. He has so much going on inside of. His Bank oftentimes, the payments don't leave the bank, it just goes from one customer to another. So he's an island up liquidity like all of the top four, but Goldman and Morgan Stanley or more broker dealer still they the bank that's the key thing to remember. So we'll get to wells fargo maybe at the end because it's eighty separate case. But what about Golden, Sachs? This is golden feeling a little bit of pressure even though they also had a great quarter. Of course, it's great to see them. It will not of the park like this but they are the last dinosaur in the lung. You know if you ever watch animal planet, the one at the end is when the T. rex seats. So in terms of funding in terms of volatility of the business I think Goldman is still very vulnerable as his city. Those are the two at the back. The rest of the group is is doing better and I think you know God bless him Gorman, he had a lot of people criticizing him but he's ended up creating business to kind of looks like the UBS is the other big. European. Asset managers but he's got a world class investment back. So it's a much more balanced model. I. Think a lot of his competitors. So told to us then about city, it's been a decade at this point Chris. It looks like it's going to need some kind of. I don't know more if not restructuring massaging is going to be a news to try and do this. She was present the last time there was a restructuring. So she knows exactly what's going on inside the bank and the bank good bank and the have spun off and so on. What would your prescription for city? Well. City suffers from the HMO Sandy Weill you know my core has done a great job to turn things around but he was the first competent CEO that bank it had him fifteen years and again, Jane Fraser Great Operator. She's touched all the relevant parts of the bank and I think she's got just try and work with her board to fashion a business that makes sense. They're not really much of a US bank. Well, the only have about forty percent core deposits since I'd city the rest of it is funded like Goldman Sachs and the markets their cost of funds is higher and the thing that saves. Mr. Big. Consumer Book Because Their Credit Card Book has you know. Gross yield in the teens. So that makes up for a lot of sins, but she's gotTa figure out a way to get back or by an asset manager So she can compete with the rest of these universal banks right? They're not just monolithic commercial banks with a broker dealer anymore funny everybody wants to have a trillion trillion and a half two trillion in them. So they can compete with Black Rock, which is much bigger than all of them So that to me is the competitive landscape she's got a decent. Capital Markets Investment Bank. It's not as good as Morgan Stanley and she's got a great great advantage in that consumer book. 'CAUSE IT throws off lot of income in good times so that to me is a challenge with city. What did they want to be when they grow up? Okay. Because look at a we've had systems of control issues since you and I were kids funny. We've been watching movies for twenty. Five years. This goes back to John Reid and when Sandy Weill started buying those non-bank businesses. That's what they got into trouble. When you started turning, you know sales offices of associates corporate two branches of Citibank. That was that was not a good idea I mean and and so many of the places where these banks were able to make a little extra cash on slide, they just don't exist anymore, right? Chris. Currency Trading and so on like it's just been come such a different kind of experience to run a bank but tell me this you look at the buying and the quarters that they've had and yes a lot of it has come from the capital markets bought. You would also imagine by looking out them that the consumer is extraordinarily comfortable right now but that's not the case we just got finished games that don't even reflect the problems in California nine, hundred, thousand initial teams just for last week, empire manufacturing is is down to ten point five we had. Obviously a better philly fed business outlook and so on. There's definitely mixed data, but how are the banks point to? Weather out what's obviously coming for the consumer if we don't get more stimulus. Well, it's it's kind of a tale of two countries. Funny. We have a lot of people who are unemployed now, who may or may not have been particularly bankable. You think of the bottom twenty percent of Americans. They're not big users of credit because they don't have credit at all or their scores are quite low and so in this bull market. You've seen for mortgages for example, other areas even autos autos is doing fine You know it's the middle to the upper third of the market and credit terms. So we'll the banks feel that yes. The ones with big consumer exposure city capital, one, some of the others. But look at American Express American Express is almost back up the four times book. So you know you have to think of it in terms of the segmentation of society, and unfortunately the lowest income Americans are the biggest losers. And then you think about the cost that we've put on top of the banks for dealing with consumer issues over the past ten years, Kamala Harris. That's not helpful either 'cause there's no incentive for those banks to stretch and lend to do good loans all day long. It's anything that's a reflection of the Kerry shaped recovery. It's that grace I mean it's it's really something to say when you say we'll banks are seeing it among consumers because their consumers are fine. The ones that are suffering can't even get banked in this country and in many other countries to Chris I have one more unfunny Freddie. You know if we get a different administration or just. A continuation of the same. What happens next profanity Freddie Nothing nothing happened anyway but it's problematic. You cannot detach these things from government support, direct sovereign credit support, and expect the survive. You know it's just not going to happen but one thing I. do want to leave you with funny as the reason, the banks especially, j. p. were able to pause in terms of putting aside more cash for future losses is because of the forbearance and the cares act. The Fed has said, well, those are not delinquent loans until those are considered delinquent loans, the banks don't have to put more cast aside for them. So we're pausing. Pose the forever polls and. Well if we want to become European. So I mean that's what they did in Europe. They used to just ignore non-performing loans and it was a horrible horrible mistake on the part of the Mercury government. So. You know that's that's kind of where we are I think US banks are in much better shape they're going to clean up the mess fourth quarter will be taken a lot of stuff to the curb Bunny Chris. It's more sanguine interviews that I've had with you. You see actually quite positive, which is I worked in the mortgage business. We're going do four and a half trillion dollars for the mortgages this year that's higher almost higher than two thousand four, which is a little scary. But at least we have part of the economy that is going to help pull us out and housing. I think there's accumulated demand you have a lot of. Demographic factors younger people want to you know five families undergoing outside of the big cities which I think is great. This is a good point. Maybe it's Karma the mortgage industry finally getting. The banks are buying third party production right now, but Jamie did enough new mortgages. So he had almost no net change in the value of servicing I'll guarantee you his servicing book is prepaying thirty percent a year. Well that's good. It's good given what the mortgage industry went through ten years ago right and. We can have a longer station about that some other time and we have to let you go but you so much that is Chris Waylon chairman of Waylon Global. Advisor is always a pleasure to speak with Chris. HP's vision is to create technology that makes life better for everyone everywhere last fiscal year hp sustainable impact strategy helped influence more than one point six billion dollars in new sales creating positive lasting change. Per Planet people and community for the planet HP is transforming its business for a circular and low-carbon future for people, HP championing dignity respect and empowerment for all people with whom it works, and for community HP is unlocking educational and economic opportunity through the power of technology with the goal of enabling better learning outcomes for one hundred, million people by twenty twenty, five, learn more at HP, dot, com slash sustainable impact. Let's get some more market's reaction out there upon by who cover is all of the assets for issues caused asset here at Bloomberg News and he's been obviously keeping an eye on equities today because that's What's really sort of moving the most to the naked eye at least but there's a lot going on Sarah in Europe and in the United States with those jobless claims, there is a lot going on and not necessarily what she wanna see to bring optimism to this market. So in the United States jobless claims did come in at eight, hundred, ninety, thousand, the estimate was for eight, hundred, twenty, five, thousand, and the prior week was also revised higher to eight hundred, forty, five thousand. So not only just a mix of that estimate but also an unexpected increase in jobless claims. Now, as Chris, Lowe over at fhm financial put it. He said the ongoing decline in claims paid. Stretching from late April to two weeks ago is encouraging there. He is referring to those continuing claims but then he said the increase in initial claims is disturbing it is difficult to see it and not think the recovery is vulnerable and that really just a him is where we currently stand. Yes we have gotten through the rebound. We have got him through that initial stage of the v-shaped recovery if you want to call it that however the question is now what is next especially since it looks like we may not be getting fiscal stimulus we do see cova cases rising particularly you look at Europe right now where we see record cases in particular countries like, Germany Italy. The Czech Republic at the same time or hearing about restrictions in London curfews in Paris. So not what you want to see globally when Kobe cases are rising, there's fears of another wave ahead of the winter and a labor market recovery in the United States seems to be stalling. And with all that said, we still have indices not far from records mean, yes we're down one percent today in the five hundred, the Nasdaq down wanted half percent and so on. But I mean that's not even that much of a self. Well, that's why it's so important to keep this all in perspective I mean I think about the earning season That we are in the middle of shirt is very, very, very early on but to this point, the beat rate for US companies that have reported earnings so far is about eighty five percents that will be a record beat rate. However, if you look at the average move for a stock that has reported earnings in the twenty, four hours post reporting but. Average move has actually been about a two percent decline. So even though companies are beating companies are delivering, it's not showing up in the stock market and part of the reason for that is yes. The fact that many of these estimates analysts had no clue what was going to happen we had gotten no guidance. It was almost as though we were living. vacuuming and information vacuum, and you see that disparity between the estimates and the actual numbers that are coming out. But when you have markets that are trading at record highs, it is such a different setup than the beginning of the second quarter first quarter earnings season. When even though we got such negative numbers, we saw an unbelievable rally in the stock, market. Of old notes that you read all day and I know you read so many. How many people are pessimistic pessimistic Sarah because of the ones I read, it really doesn't seem short of a couple of warnings here and there that people out on Wall Street sending out research are that pessimistic I would say that my read is very similar to yours. It seems at this point in time more and more strategists are actually highlighting breadth measures for example of the market. Saying that this is a market that has been broadening out. Ned Davis Research for example, had highlighted this the other day changing their stance on US equities to become a bit more optimistic saying that one of their breadth measures actually flagged in was now positive and pointing to the fact that we are in the early stages of a true market and that does seem to be what? The majority of those notes I'm reading are saying people are saying, yes of course, there are risks out there. You have an election you have cope in nineteen. You need to see what happens with the labor market, not just in the United States, but the economy around the world over at the same time. If you look at the internals of the market, many strategists are starting to say this is resembling a true early stage bull market I suppose the next Cadillac will be the actual election itself at this point I mean yes we might get something between now and then on. Brexit. It's like we might get some better news on the virus might also get some news so. I suppose is that what people are focused on the election coming up especially considering the fact that nineteen days away as the US election that is thirteen trading sessions. So it's going to be here before we know it, it's pretty unbelievable but I would say still top of mind and you really can't get away from it is just cove in nineteen especially when you see headlines of what's happening in Europe currently and also when we see headlines dropping about. Or people involved in the White House or campaigns testing positive as well that brings it into it too, and it is really what's dictating our lives businesses and the economy at the moment you and I'm sure everyone has seen by now. But obviously coming to horace has to stop traveling because AIDS and her front office tested positive as well. So the the affecting both sides we're going to get to town halls competing townhall. SNIDE. So we'll see if we hear anything that might change the narrative, but it doesn't feel like we will at this point the other quick things there that I'm watching and it hearkens back to everybody buying outdoor patio furniture and heaters, and so on is. Energy prices, they might go up a little right. It's interesting because when you think about the covid nineteen pandemic, originally, this was seen as a deflationary force. Now, some are wondering if we are going to see pockets of inflation pickup, we saw that in the last CPI report with used cars for example, bear certain pockets of the economy that may be benefit. Now, we will see what happens as we start getting into the winter like you said it, it would be imaginable that many restaurants. People may be in their homes or trying to get heaters to use outside in particular I have heard that there extreme backlogs to achieve these because they're in such high demand currently. But yes, you have to think about the derivative effects. I bought some propane from local hardware store and Why and I felt like saying well, it's. It's for heating. What else is propane used for these days? To Your Imagination Sarah Pontiac thank you cross reporter here Bloomberg News and general just Dennis. Carl Weinberg joins us now founder and chief international economist of High Frequency Economics car, let's get straight to the point. How awful is out there? What are we going to see in terms of recession in layers or not in layers for the US. This year next year most importantly. Okay well, thank you for having me on. Funny. You know we're looking at a second wave of the virus and we've maintained that high frequency economics that you can't forecast the future of the economy until you know where the virus is going to go and we don't know there can't possibly be a real recovery until we see a cure for the virus or at least a good treatment for the virus and none of that is at hand as the virus spread increases were getting increasingly pessimistic in outlook for the US economy. especially. When you see Europe right now, right Carl because so many countries in Europe did due at least partially the right thing and France in particular just can't keep it under control right now. That's right. Also in the United. States seeing outbreaks in the land of America. At an accelerating pace of the issue is the virus. Now, wife, this is different from what we saw last spring last spring we closed the economy down and then we use the same power that we invoke the close it down to open it up. Again, right now, the virus is in charge and the virus shuts down economy by infection one worker missing from the. Factory sick at a factory closes in assembly line. If what that factory makes is used to make something else saying auto industry one parts for the assembly line listening shuts down the whole assembly line and similarly one student sick at a school closes the whole university or whole school keeps kids at home or office worker ill shuts down a whole office right now the. Virus is in charge and we don't know how soon this is going to control and what kind of economic activity it's going to take out along the way. Just a quick update for people. Covert is in forty six states now detective -Ly and that we know of and deaths around the world of topped one million at one point zero, nine, million. New, York. Called spots are leveling off but Houston ICU's intensive care units are seeing a surge car. Let's talk about then what we do know we got economic data this morning that showed and his jobless claims are just not getting any better, and that's pretty distorted data right now, and there's lots to know not like out there including the fact that similar talks are just going nowhere. Yeah. I mean there's a lot not to like in this morning's employment claims. Claims are. Not going down as we'd like them to and more importantly the number of people who are on benefits are going down to the reason people on. So I think benefits that they have they've lost federal support or they're going to lose federal support any number of programs, and what this means is that the income hit that we've avoided so far has now started to catch up with us and probably starting in July but it's going to get a lot worse than the next month or two the next you tell sales number that. We're going to see probably not going to terrible however were very grim about what's coming up in the months ahead as people losing support, unemployment, insurance and jobs do not Julia was to put them back to work I mean we haven't even had a chance to talk to you recently about China which was the only topic we're talking about for a long time but China's really receded into the background now in terms of trade negotiations and so on. Given what's actually happening right around us what what do you think about it night Carl? Economy and the stock market goes to highs and the election coming up and so on. What's the most important question for you right now? You should ask was just reading about China four, no global economy tomorrow China's GONNA print GDP number next week that's going to you know half percent growth that's not particularly good number from a historical perspective but from the perspective of the world at large, that's a pretty darn good result giving what's going on with this pandemic and other countries China right now is exploiting advantage having else with the pandemic albeit harshly for my social of political pressure point. Of View Right. But nonetheless, they contained it and now they're using their windfall from having contained the virus to exploit openings in the world economy step up to the plate if you will say relationship with Iran defiance US sanctions with relationships, Africa and other countries, spreading eight, and so forth. China is benefiting from this pandemic making multiple dimensions and so for for whatever reasons that we may not approve of politically or socially than managing to keep the pandemic under control. Yeah I. Mean it sounds pretty malignant. How much hey can bad actors make from the situation that we're in right now including the fact that we have an election coming up and that's what we're gonNA concentrating on. We just had his atkins left by the way Carl. Agree with you about that motion in extreme again, lived in. China right now the economy would be growing. You would have a job. You wouldn't be worried about losing it and you wouldn't be worried about getting the the disease you know. So there are obviously a love cost associated with this if they're also. True benefits as well. Carlos. Always a pleasure to speak with you and Karl again we did get soggy by China. So that's good. Carl Weinberg of high frequency economics covering the gamut there from this morning's. Data to the stock market to what's happening in China speaking of the Stock Market Racine just a little relief the dow down only quote unquote just more than half a percent right now or one hundred, Fifty, eight points the SNP down twenty five point seven tenths of resent on the Nasdaq down one percent. It probably bears repeating that we saw initial jobless claims for last week coming in today higher than economists were anticipating just below nine, hundred thousand claims and we know that there are some problems with California data, which is skewing the data continuing team's staying over that one million mark we do not like to see continuing claims staying over a million. For many weeks in a row, but that's what we have. Next Guest Christine Mogollon CEO of amplify ETF joins us. He's also portfolio of the. Amplify online retail. Etf I buy and for anybody WHO's looking it up ib Ui. And that is obviously something that. Has Been involved with Amazon is involved with Amazon. So let's start off right there. Christian we've just had prime days this year an extra prime day Amazon has released a lot of data, but it definitely released third party or fulfilling his data which was higher talked about what you've seen. Yeah. So prime dates included and once again, it was a record prime day. This was the sixth annual Amazon Prime Day last year. Amazon. Found about seven billion dollar kind of sales to two day period. This year early projections look like it's going to be closer to ten billion dollars route nine point nine billion with about six billion coming from US versus about four billion coming from outside the US the average or is up about forty five dollars. Order, the average household spent looks to be about seventy six dollars. Thirty percent of customers surveyed by one data provider show that they're buying holiday gifts. Remember prime days traditionally been in July, the shirts in October. So Amazon's able to front run a little bit this holiday shopping trends in the age of covid which many people believe would make this the record prime day and sure enough. It looks like it's going to be a record by about forty percent. Your I by ETF generates water seventy percent of its revenue from online purchases in normal times. What about right now during the pandemic, what do you imagine that percentage Christian? Yeah, it's definitely increase. So I by only looks at companies that have seventy percent or more of their revenue coming from online retail sales in you know online retail still in the US from a market share standpoint is only sixteen percent of overall retail sales based off the last US Census Bureau report that happened this past quarter that's up from eleven percent. Now, during holiday shopping, we typically see like last year saw little over twenty percent of market share online this year early, survey results show that it could be in excess of fifty percent market share. So it's a bang up year for online retail and. Online retail stocks I by eighty, nine percent. This year as it's as it's focused on online retail, believe it or not. An Amazon is only up eighty, two percent it's actually trailed. The average online retail stock I've is actually equally weighted. So doesn't have this massive waiting to Amazon, which is actually benefited this you're. Absolutely, and you have two billion dollars in assets across the Sweden ETF amplify. So that's really interesting. This particular one that you play police calls attention to I. Want to ask you a little bit of our Colorado Springs by can let's your location I mean is that an area that's seen an influx of people during the coronavirus pandemic or just tell us a little bit about what it's like in Colorado Springs. Right now. Yes, we've definitely seen people migrate down from the larger city in the State Denver to had a little bit more of quality life in Colorado Springs. Also seen an influx of of Californians frankly fact In the next few months, we'll see the first opening of in-n-out Burger, which if you're from California is kind of a staple food there. So Yeah Colorado is definitely attracting people who now can work in a place that has some great natural beauty, a lot of different activities all all all year, four seasons and We're definitely seeing a nice population increase probably do not only cova restrictions, but also kind of this work from home trend. So definitely part of maybe one of the areas that is a benefactor of of the changing landscape in terms of kind of physical locating yourself based off your work. Sure I want to say congratulations I, guess on in and out Burger but there's definitely question mark at the end of that congratulations Tokyo's a little bit about what the retail environment is like there though because you must see small businesses medium sized businesses in town and in surrounding towns are they suffering right now or will they actually almost in some weird way benefit from this too? Yeah. So you know there is a larger population trend happening in Colorado. So that is good but to your point, there's still some physical restrictions here. We certainly have of our mask mandate that just got extended by Governor Po Police I know that many of the restaurants particularly in the Denver Area are limited capacity about twenty, five percent capacity, which is. Stressing their ability to stay open and overall though it seems like you know people are adjusting You know the economy has. Slowed down in some areas but you know speaking to a lot of home improvement type businesses whether that be people building, Dax doing remodeling, etc. they're having record years just spoke to several contractors who are seeing. You know unbelievable backup one, for example, whose builds DAX. has now a five month wait for all new decks they're building out here in Colorado their previous high was to two months. So they're operating at more than double their capacity, there's more work than they can handle. So I think a lot of the kind of Home Depot know type retailers are doing quite well out here. Restaurants are are struggling but again, you know we're hoping to get through this and you know. Restrictions have been a little bit more less intense. I guess since the end of the peak in corona but I definitely there's going to be some more challenges to overcome here as we think, we get into a cold winter well, Christian congratulations on lots of things on. But also on the performance of I, buy your e t s Christian Mugune, CEO of amplify ATS joining us right there from Beautiful Colorado Springs. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg Markets Podcast, you can subscribe and listen to interviews at apple podcasts or whatever podcast platform you burn I'm Vonnie Quinn I'm on twitter at on equal. Paul Sweeney. I'm on twitter at Sweeney. Before the podcast, you can always catch US worldwide at Bloombergradio. Is leading the way in protecting our planet people and communities for Future Generations. Together, we can make a quantifiable difference learn more at HP dot com slash sustainable impact.

US Chris Morgan Stanley Europe Morgan Stanley Bloomberg HP Amazon Goldman Sachs Goldman CEO China Carl Weinberg high frequency economics Paul Sweeney John Reid Sandy Weill
1545 Dr. Travis Campbell on Understanding Practice Management & Dental Insurance : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1:35:09 hr | 2 months ago

1545 Dr. Travis Campbell on Understanding Practice Management & Dental Insurance : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

"Thousands of texas and schick owners have added a jazz sensor to their practice using our unique subscription option preserve your capital while never having to worry about warranty and support again visit jazz. Imaging dot com. That's jazz imaging dot com. It is just a huge honor for me today to be podcast. Dr travis campbell. Dds's fulltime practicing dentists in prosper texas. He started his practice from scratch after graduating from baylor college dentistry and has grown this single dentist practice to be in the top one percent in the country. Having made the typical mistakes as a new business owner has worked diligently to learn how to become a highly capable business owner. He has a passion for helping others. Avoid the typical dental business pitfalls and become highly successful business owners in addition to being doctors. Well dr campbell has become well known for his knowledge experience and dental business management and efficiency. He is best known for his understanding dental insurance. He is an author speaker contributor of various online communities and he dental coach consultant his book on dental office management or at least twenty nine thousand nine hundred and his textbook on dental insurance is coming out this year. What the dental insurance company does not want you to know. Eighteen guide to dental insurance. Might god drivers. You have thirty four hundred post on dental town and i swear to god i feel like you're my brother from the same damn mother just amazing and every one lives the practice. Whisper before we get to that. I gotta start with. I'm still confused. Is it baylor college or texas. Am so when i was there it was baylor colored industry but owned by an so. I got into plummets. Baylor college ministry texas health science center of an now as a like five years ago. They officially changed the name and it no longer has baylor. It's just an college. The so basically where. I went to school no longer exists. And then is the am Agriculture and manufacturing. I have no idea. I think that's what i mean. Like three m as minnesota mining and manufacturing. I think they. It's like come on do the agriculture yeah manufacturing. I don't know But so i just take it that when you were there was a dean lawrence wolinsky. I don't know if we really had much. Connect with the dean at all. Because we're going is. Where did you get your business. Savvy entrepreneurs chef. I mean i mean you're just obviously you're that kid who had business instincts probably was five so sure that most of it comes from trial and error and screwing up and i'm just one that if an honest grew up on something gonna learn how to not do it again and so that's majority of it so i opened the practice from scratch and i made every mistake you could probably make running a business and so we just learned the hard way on how to avoid those same steaks. And that's where a majority of what i talked to people about comes from so your website for your dental office is three eighty dental zero eight three eighty family dental and then your website for your practice was for is practice whisper. Did you still that name from the dog whisperer when they're going now. I've actually never seen those shows where that name came from originally was we have two kids and for whatever reason i'm the only one that could get either of them to go to sleep when they were young and so my family years ago started calling me the baby whisper and then i was doing a seminar see or a speaker and somebody mentioned that you know. Hey you should be called. The practice. Whisper because i was giving them a bunch of tips on how to you know. Help the office saying that sounds like a cool name like it so it just kind of stuck from there a few years ago i wa tell you what year. I'm it's amazing what you've learned so you know. How many children do you have to to i. I've written a book before. I i always say that writing books like having another child i mean you know it takes nine months. It's a. it's a huge commitment. And now you're going to write a second one so so tell me what was the jury what possessed you to write the practice. Whisper practical steps to decreasing stress increasing. Prophet in your dental office. it's available on amazon. It's only at five star ratings. Says as it did this. They don't train you to build a business in the practice. Whisper doctor campbell. Shares had to develop a successful dental practice decrease stress and restore your passion for your field as you train for dentistry. Were you prepared for becoming a small business. Owner most not trained to run a business. If you were once passionate about your practice but now feel like the office patient stress you out. You're not alone. Many factors are affecting devastation. Wide lower insurance reimbursement corporate growth and more dental schools opening every year today to compete in the dental industry knowing how to run a successful business as much as knowing the clinical aspects. If you feel like running the business always what causes stress and problems that it's time to change on how you on your business going from knowing nothing about business to create one of the top. One percent of single doctor practices united states. doctor travis. Campbell didn't understand this concept. When he first started his office would he did learn. Was you have to either avoid problems or understand how to fix them. Is it time for you to run your practice. Accessibly without all the stress failures at dentist come to face. Knowledge is the key to success. Are you ready to learn more and reading your post. I mean i'm. I'm i'm telling you i can't believe i mean all your you know might my my really profound poster like ll or hong yours are always a paragraph of just sustained. Words were does that passion come from I mean i just always loved industry. So i i wanted to be a dentist ever since i usually say three. Just because that's the earliest. I can think of it and i don't have an instant family. I just love my family dennis. He was awesome. I started shadowing him. When i was eight weeks. And the more. I learned about dentistry. The more i fell in love with and so it's i just enjoy it And when i went out in private practice you know. Made a bunch of the states It was kind of fun to learn how to fix them. And then i got people asking the questions on well you know. How do i do this. And how do i do that. And most of more things that we had already screwed up before. And therefore i knew exactly how to turn the ba- rounds in a way that no i'm screwed up too so it wasn't just i'm smarter than he was just been there before and i screwed it up probably worse than they did. And so it's it's been nice to do that because there wasn't someone there. Help me prevent a lot of the issues. I had and so i like being there for other people to help them. Avoid the things that caused me all the problems at the beginning. So that's where it will just have fun helping you know you've been out at decade. Let's say you were freshmen. In undergrad college now. And you see how dentistry looks like you know. When the first ten years i practice delta dental i mean they just you just send them your fees. They told you okay. We'll pay cleaning next raise. Eighty percent fillings root canals. Half for crowns marshalls. Now they say. We'll we'll tell you the fee. And i mean i was getting a thousand for crown an eighty seven and now i'm getting six fifty four crown forty years thirty two years later if you knew what you know now and there weren't. Dso's dental schools. They had been cl- shutting down dental schools. Close on emory farley dixon. Georgetown all these deals so they were shutting down schools. i moved to phoenix. It wasn't even dated the renault dental schools reimbursement. If you knew what you knew now. And you were a freshman and undergrad. Would you say okay. That was a bad idea. It's time to find something else or do you think a kid walking out of texas named him today with four hundred thousand dollars in student loans has got a shot at this like you and i do you know it's interesting because i see this debate a lot on the forms facebook whatever and i still think industry is one of the best industries out there. I think one of the challenges a lot of us have is we think we can get out and just know what we learned to dental school and be successful and some of us can. But i think that's the big challenge for a lot of this is dental schools. Only the first stepping stone and majority of what guts personally me to be more successful had nothing to do with clinical skills and that was the hard part of learning that the clinical is not what drives our industry. It's the communication the leadership. The can you talk to a patient. Can you sell which unfortunately dentistry seems to have a dirty concept to it but sellings only get a patient to understand what they need and like you enough to get from you. That's the only definition of it. That should matter and so if you can do that well you'll be successful but a lot of us you know and for years of my career were even worse than they are now You know. I may present a million dollars in treatment but back then i might have gotten three hundred thousand of to actually be done. That's a huge challenge. I had tons of work to do. I just couldn't get patients to actually do it and most of its just working how you talk to people. I connect with people who make a huge difference So and that's what made the difference over the years is if you get better at treatment and acceptance. He get better estimates and treatment. Planning your going to be a lot better is most of us. Yeah we only have so. Many patients to see and there is an oversaturation and a lot of areas of dentists but if you can connect with patients better been you'll get a larger chunk of that population than the next down the street any longer successful will you're you're in texas and my god did see It's the second largest state. I live in phoenix and i can't believe honey patients. I have that worked for a company in In houston but they go to the regional office phoenix because el paso's closer to phoenix. And his houston. So i mean. Texas is just one of the biggest states ever and Do you I saw on. We're is that Yeah i saw on the surgeon If society rear admiral timothy rix chief dental office of us. Public health service says that there's dental desserts were sixty million people live Six thousand four hundred eighty seven dental health professional shortage twenty nine percents eight matt so shoes this map and texas looks like it's half the desert and half not do you do you The dso's are confirming this because they stop build going to rural area so kind of looks like the said. We don't want the rural were half of american lives and we're just going to go to the big cities and they've all been on this program. They said look When we were going to small towns on any given day ten percent of our offices would even have a dentist in there. So the millennials just won't go live in beeville texas. They wanted to live in dallas and houston. Do you think that's a big part of it from what you see. Success as demographics urine prosper That's a suburb of dallas. How is that Is that really kinda dallas or is that are you out in the boonies. I'd say a little bit. In between now when i first went there we had eight thousand people that lived here ten years later. We have over twenty five. I think we're verging on thirty thousand now. So we're not small by any means anymore but you know because dallas keeps expanding. But i've never been true rural. I'd say we're probably combination of a good chunk of our patients are rural in nature and a good chunk are from just suburbia and frisco area. Which has a ton of people so we kind of are in the middle of both but i will say you bring up a good point that a lot of dennis don't want to go wrong for whatever reason and there is more of a need there because there's less people want to live there in general that's the whole liberal anyway. Is you kind of want. Wanna be away from cities of your way from cities and your way from walmart and guess what you're probably gonna be away from a dentist to and that's the challenge when anybody ever says while there's a shortage of dentists it's not that there's a shortage of dennis if you wanna live really wanna live rule in that means away from everything and you're used to driving fifty miles to the grocery store. Will that means you're going to be probably fifty miles from dental office It's just the nature of living there. It's not a bad thing. It's just what people want and what people have told people over the years if walmart will not open a store in an area and dennis would be an idiot to open a store in an area if walmart can't make it successful. There's not a lot of reasons we could. And so that's part of it now in general if you look at the numbers country we're actually oversaturated. Dennis and if you look at those maps texas what i kind of find a little off about them is if you ask any of the in that area. Are you super bowl. Could you literally not see another patient. You're not going to get most people to go. I could never. I could not physically you know. See one more person most sinister saying our schedules. Kind of Know sometimes it falls apart. I'm not completely busy. Every day. I would love to have more. Patients will the dichotomy between dental offices. Saying we're not busy enough. And you know these maps saying that. There's not enough providers just doesn't seem to come together and that's what's always frustrating. When i hear things like access to carry issues. I think more of the promise. It's an issue of we don't care to access patients just don't want to dennis for whatever reason and therefore there's less dental visits that doesn't mean there's a shortage of providers there's a lack of education or need or desire to go so you said when you went to that town prosper. It was eight thousand and now it's thirty thousand so you pick the gold mine. I mean if you if you went to eight thousand and went to thirty inside of eleven years. You knew your demographics was anyway or did you. Just go there. Because you know you're you're born there now is warning houston So we went so originally saw graduated baylor college industry in dallas and so we decided just to stick around the dallas area will frisco and mckinney which is right on a highway three eighty which is where offices. And that's where the name of the office comes from frisco mckinney. Have forever been the fastest growing cities in the country. And i think they still are. and so. we're literally situated in the fastest growing area ever and that was intentional. Now partially prosper. Was i love the community. It's got a great school system. We've got our two kids here. We had planned to move here. Live here pretty much forever and kind of had the best of everything's or us had great growth. It had a great community has great schools for kids. So it's perfect so yes by intention man. That's a nice because of the pandemic getting by the the comments under youtube My emails howard time. Dotcom everybody wants to ask my guests if you would take the vaccine yourself personally today. Oh you don't stick to anything that's controversial at all you. So as i've been telling most people right now. I am not going out of my way to get the vaccine because there are plenty of people who need it far more than i do My parents are good. Example once got heart issues and the other was going through chemo. So if anybody needs a vaccine is going to be the two of them. And i know there's a shortage currently can't produce a pass enough of getting it now whether i get it afterwards. I'm still on the fence on. I'm not against it. I'm not forward. I'm still kind weighing out my options and saying what things look like. At that point interesting. I was very very surprised at we'll humans. Do game theory so you. You can't have something they're like. What and then when it rolled out everyone. I knows like the other guys. Try it first. So everybody's in game theory mode. I went just because i'm a rat. I figured the rats should be tested first and then if it works on me then give it to but my eighty two year old mother she. She won't take it she's like oh she goes. I wanna wait and see. I'm like mom you're eighty two. How long can you wait and see. But she she's not gonna do it Do you think how much of this year we always talk about stress dentistry stressing dentistry. When i was gonna say the highest suicide rate but after the nineteen year war that ghanistan please stop saying that. The soldiers twenty six suicides day so you. So don't ever say that does. Has i suicide very but there seems to be a lot of stress in dentistry in general but this year made it a lot worse in your book you talk about decreased stress and restore passion for your field. But i didn't see the asterik and your said does not apply to the year. Twenty nineteen cova nineteen pre covid. After covid. please see the footnotes did this. Was this an out wire year for stress and reduce a passionate dentistry. I'm sure a lot of people had a lot of stress issues last year I mean i'll say when we were first shut down. I had a decent some of to deal with it and deal with the the unknown in what was coming the fact that i necessarily agree with a lot of what was going on And it it's interesting to see what changes have happened. However i will say myself. And i know a lot of other dinna sue. We've had our best years ever We collected far more last year than we've ever done before even after being shut down for two months and so that's why i talk about when you run an office. It's if you can set the systems correctly and you can fix the challenges. That are there. There shouldn't be any reason. You can't succeed and i think a majority of dentists owners who have stress. It's because the business is having challenges. Well it's the businesses having challenges. You gotta figure out ways to fix them. And that's why i talk about. The book is just all the ways. I failed and the ways we kind of modified or corrected the issues that happened but last year was really interesting. 'cause yeah we i mean it was. We collected almost two hundred thousand dollars more last year than we did. The prior year and so for us two thousand twenty was stressful because a covert in the fear and the shutdown in the b. b. and everything else but from a business one of us oppressed your and from a personal view. I a lot of other stuff done during that two months of shut down i mean i could have never finished the book last year. If it wasn't for being shut down. So i can't believe what were you saying. Last year i mean is is still the twenty twenty one. My gosh yeah. I was talking to dennis in our craig stike and he was. He was just mad that last year. What is best year ever. It was his third best year out of like thirty years but he so wanted it to be the best year during the middle of the pandemic when he was forced to be closed. And by the way when you said that you don't like a lot of how everything's going on. I mean for. I graduated high school in nineteen eighty. Now it's twenty twenty forty years. I've never seen the government be good. i mean they. They couldn't let me down because never they never did anything to convince me. They were any good But you know sometimes. I wonder when i look at guys like you. I always think if you would have became an electrical engineer just you. You'd have been all that you can be electrical engineering. Do you think that passion just came preloaded in you and birth. Do you think it's just a genetic thing you have or do you work on it. Or how weird is what. Why do some dentists. Just burn out throw in the towel and always wanna quit. And then there's a guy like you who during the middle of a pandemic has the best year of his career. I mean we're we're i mean that's an interesting question so i think it comes from a lot of different things i mean for one. There's lots of people in this world who they do greatly passionate about and i think for that. It's the whole idea that if you love what you do you'll never work a day in your life idea and i think that works out well and there's a lot of us who get into an industry because we're told it should be good or because of money or status or prestige or a variety of other. Things aren't bad. They're just not nearly as motivational driving. i think it's a lot harder if a reason you're getting into an industry to stay passionate about it the whole time. 'cause you don't have that internal just that industry But that's every industry across the world and then you've got people who they're kind of dropped into it. And i can see them having your challenges. So yeah i would say if you've got an internal passion for what you do. It's a lot easier to stay happy about it. Along the way and when challenges do come up it's a lot easier to get the internal motivation to go find a way to fix them at the same time. It's you know mosul. What is for been for me is mostly stress. I've ever had industry has come from running. The office isn't really come from industry itself. I think a lot of that is. We're very well trained in most cases to be generous to do dentistry to do what we do with patients all the time what i was not well trained on is how to run a business at a communicate with patients how to deal with insurance. You know how to do all that other stuff. That is vitally important careers but it has nothing to do with clinical. And that's where majority of my strikeouts firm and i think a lot of dentists i've talked to. It's the same thing is we're not trained well and those other aspects and so it's very easy to go from being okay or happy to being really challenged and stressed everything else and for me. What's made a differences. Learning more. The things that i wasn't good at rian that made a huge difference and then honestly for me learn more about running. The business has actually been more reinvigorating. Because it's just something new and for me. I like the new. I like a change. I like you know making things better fixing things and that's always help. So the more. I learn about the business in the more kind of get out and talk other people and help others along that side of things it just reinvigorates my passion for clinical dentistry. Even more and it's am it say natural selection. I remember when You know so many times in history. They wondered like Like the bipolar issues is a fantastic issue when they when they diagnosed by bipolar america kept getting four percent of its population. Europe kept getting one percent and everybody thought they just didn't know how to measure they finally a guy from I think it was john hopkins. The the head of psychiatric said. We're gonna we're gonna finish this obviously. We're diagnosing it differently. And he studied by god. I it's really true. And then they realized historian said well. Who else would say you know. What screw ireland. I'm going to get a boat with a shirt off my back and we're one in eight ships sink on the way over and screw it. I'm just going to america with nothing. Mall the crazy by so. It was a dream brain bipolar america. And i was looking at dennis. I mean my god. I look at the ford guys. I hung out with at creighton. All nerd introvert gays randy kirwin. Joe dobkin we are always studying and we would come back to the dorm and it's creighton. It's supposed to be a catholic school. A great pious out. My god they had music and beer and it was just crazy stuff. And i think a bunch of introverts scientists geek dentis guys who i mean. We actually loved physics. I mean how weird are you if you're supposed to just hate physics and then you i'm weird and so those are the people that go into dentistry. So that's not the person who's going to say. Oh yeah. I'm going to be the number one cells from the my company. I'm going to sell the most cars to lead the team. I'm gonna talk to this patient. I mean what did you say. I'm not selling dentistry. I i don't like people you go in their office after after they get done doing a roof. Now i'll bet you your car housewife and two kids. They'll turn around and go straight to the office and shut the door. They won't work room. They won't go up waiting. I'm up there in the waiting room. If i'm running late i go up there and apologize myself and then when the pace i'm checking out. I blame it on him. Will larry here you know would flush with the correct into the tooth. I wouldn't around thirty minutes late and it's just working the room. It's going basketball game. Two coaches right on the sidelines. My doc is backing office with his door. Closed not listening to the staff. Not listening to the patient. So how can your book teach a guy who wants to go to the library and read physics to actually go out there and work the room like the greatest shafts in the world spend more time on the floor shaking hands pressing the flash with their customers. They're not back there making the souffle. They got other juniors chefs doing that. How do you get an introvert geek to do that. Get rid of his office. Oh a private office. Yeah if you don't have seat to seat and guess what you're going to be somewhere else. So i mean that's one technical way to do it. Some of it though is it's just you're right. Most of us are interest. Most of us are type a. personalities. Most of us are a little bit perfection. Most of us are very ocd. And none of that works as well for being a leader and being someone who can connect well with patients and in general that means we have to work harder at it and that is the one thing i still challenge or have a challenge with is the ability to connect with people or semi t but sometimes patients if they're a little harder to Not the easiest person to get along with It can be challenged. And it is something that i you to know for yourself that that's the problem and you've got to find ways to fix it and for me it's been i mean i've had some books i've read. I've had some leadership courses. I went to I forced myself out of the office. Because you're right. I mean i i'm naturally i wanna go do something. I'm just going. Go sit down on my computer chair and get work done and be perfectly happy just putting on music and not listen to anyone right. You can't do that in run an office and so i'm up in the front kind of helping with you know other insurance challenges or things that need to work out. I'm up there. Talk might treatment coordinator or giving her the details of the last patient on talk to what important things in their life are going to affect their treatment and how to kind of work those in with their treatment plan I'm sitting there occasionally. Just a lot of times if i've got the time. Walk into a patient's room where they're seeing the hydros. There aren't due for an exam. I'll just say hey. How're you doing. You're not due to see me understand. Say hi none of that something. I will naturally do stuff that i kind of force myself to do but it works and the patients. I do that for those patients. I've seen for eight ten eleven years And those are the ones that honestly. If i tell them they need anything done they'll get it done without hesitation It's the newer patients that don't have that history with you. Don't have that relationship at are going to be harder to work around and get them to do what they need to do. And so some of it's just figuring out your weaknesses and working around them and it's hard it's tough it's not something that's easy to do It's just something to work at. And i'm still working at that part of it. You know you your post you really Remind me so much of sandy weill. When i read his book a tearing down the walls how sandy weill fought his way to the top of the financial world He was the guy who built citi group and And then his junior that was going to take over was jeanie diamond and then they had a falling out. Rumor has it. He tried to date his daughter and he got fired. And then he went to Chase and and he works hard. Every year he comes down to Phoenix and each branch gets one ticket to eat lunch with them and my branch manager knows. I'm have a man crush on him. So i've got to go have lunch with the mike three times but when i read your postal i'll tell you why you're identical And you really are. The this guy on dental says good morning please use. My ignorance is not my forte. But i'm wondering if claims should be submitted a two doctor practice boo doctors on the practice. Fifty fifty we were cutting the practice that is. We are not two separate products under one roof. My question is when we submit claims if it worked that i have done to the claim we sat under my personal. I believe we practice. I could be wrong. The practice is actually blah blah blah blah blah. And here. here's your answer. You should go. Look at a copy of the ada claim forum at the bottom or two sections billing entity treating rendering provider. Basically this means the dentist during the work goes in one section and who the check needs to be written goes in another And you go on into spur all your like. I say my my most profound post like. That's that's hilarious. You know that a two word. Ll yours are like that. And sandy weill was just a brooklyn boy come from nothing and he went and got a job at the bank and he just kept asking this one she says when my mom goes to the store rights at check. How does the money getting her account. That should be a real simple question to the branch bank manager and nobody could answer the damn question so then on his time off. he's they. Will you say this check clearing house. Or where's that they didn't even know where that is. He had to go find that and then he went down but anyway long story short as he finally on his journey of just finding out how to write a check at the store. How does it get cash and the money and by the time he finally figured it out he said well. This is the stupidest system i've ever seen in my life. And then of course. The timing was when computers were coming to age so a lot of this automation but the thing that i loved about him the most is strategy is the fact that when he was doing this they were say well. We're only gonna do this for the bank. And he's if we're gonna do the service we're going to open up any bank and then people will say well. Why would you want to do that. And he goes well. Why wouldn't you wanna learn your competitor's business why why are you thinking small and then by the time he got at citigroup everybody thought. Oh he's just doing mergers and acquisitions. He had the systems in place where he could go find some bank that was completely financially insane and nobody at the bank even knew the fundamentals of how to cash a check and right and all that kind of stuff but it was just tells details details and you walk into dental offices would person a dentist. Do you think in texas if you walked into their office and they just got done doing An emo decompose on three. You put a gun to send said. Go up to their computer. The computer check it out bill. The insurance you've been here twenty years. I'm going to have to put you down. What percent of the dennis in dallas are in texas couldn't even do that couldn't do it ninety five or more ding ding ding ding ding ding. Ding people have natural. Curiosity go the furthest if memory college when you lived in a dorm and there were eight on the floor and you'd ask some guy basic question and he'd say i never thought of that he'd sit there and thank god dang eighteen years. He's never thought of that. You know what i mean and some people are just naturally curious have. It's an attention to detail like when you have lunch with jamie diamond. I think that i've done it three times. It's amazing how when he sits down he just ask you the most exact questions bling being bing bing bing and And you can tell that. Like i have done banking online with a bank of america and i do ma majority of mine on the chase app. I mean my the chase. Habits is like an iphone app. It's like anybody could figure it out and on the bank of america deal is like okay. How can how can. I not even know what you're asking me. I mean i can read. I've read a thousand bucks so so your attention to detail is why you're all that you can be. Thank you just always like that Probably i mean. I'll say some of the things i like doing for fun is just strategy games and for me. It's coming up with the answer or the puzzle or figuring out what it is. That's gonna get me where i need to go the the easiest quickest or most efficient way and for me. That's just the way i think. So when we've talked about things like insurance to me. Insurance is pretty systematic. It's easy to understand if you know the fundamentals because they all function the same way. The challenges for us insurance doesn't think like providers they think like insurance people. Well if you understand how insurance people are gonna say most would insurance does is extremely predictable and stuff. I see on dental town. I see it on facebook all the time of questions on insurance going. Why did they claim blah blah blah blah blah. They ask him for details information what they submitted in most cases what was submitted looks good to a dentist but doesn't look good to a claims examiner. Who's not a dentist and of course it's it's the difference of perspective and so we got the perspective of the other side. Most things are a lot easier to deal with And it's it's those are the kind of details that matter it's not necessarily the you know how many millimeters tenths of a millimeter are filling is. It's what's the details. That claims examiner needs to see was the details of the patient. Wants to see and differently. What are the details. We need a half ourselves like clinical notes but those are all three different perspectives at all leads these different answers and unfortunately being dentist we like having are very sustained dental answer and we try to that for all three and that's where the challenge fails is. You can't talk to a patient like a dentist or they're not gonna understand you. You can't talk to insurance company like a dentist or they're not gonna understand you you talk to them like who they are and the communication does a lot better so you were describing dennis earlier. You said dennis her introvert perfectionist. Ocd how else did you describe a dennis. Dennis for introvert. You said perfectionists. Ocd taipei taipei and just for our listeners. What it what do you mean by taipei versus type. B i mean type is if you want something done. You're going to have a very detailed processed way to do it versus just say okay. Well it's gonna get done somehow. We don't need to get the details on it. Let's just get it done. Most of us are okay every crown. Do this this this this and this. I just know what it's going to be every filling. I'm going to do the same exact steps versus going in there and gone. There's a cavity. Let's clean it out and figure out what to do from there. So it's it's just a process difference I'm sure there's a better explanation taipei the there's for me and dentistry. That's what always to come to mind is very process in detail oriented. A lot of our patients aren't and for instance you know. I've stopped really over the years talking to patients about the crowd that they need or the route now that they need or the filling that they need. I start talking to more patient. Terms are realistic terms of. You've got a broken tooth. We got to replace the tooth and repair and rebuild it and give me something to chew with. Well let the crown. I don't have to tell you. It's a crown. I have to tell you what. I'm getting out of it or root canal is you got an infected roots. We gotta clean it out and seal it up. Do i need term recount. No because it usually engenders a lot of negativity and patients don't know what the hell it is in detail so you give them in their world what it is. I'll stand thing for an insurance company had today that we Did a crown on it was craft and on the x ray looked perfect. Well if i submitted that extra insurance companies to deny like they should they don't have enough information. So what i had to do is actually remove the fractures. I removed the decayed arts. First and then taking. It will now that i did that. The insurance is going to see. Exactly what i could see. Clinically announce no brainer to get it done. A picture of it too and by the way still see the internal fractures. And it's just it's better communication per who it needs to go to and that's were alive. This comes into is figuring out what the other person wants to see your needs to see and giving it to and once you do that. The process is alliance. Your what i. What am. I love dentists. I really really fundamentally love dentists. I mean my my my kids notice in their little same data. We spend the night with any dentist friends. They have a library but they're not a dennis. They don't have one book in that whole house. I mean my my kids. And i love to the fact that when my oldest son moved to be taxes with four my grandchildren the local. Dennis air tim rainy took him right under his wing and was like a father to him and they're just great guys but You know now that my kids are flew the nass independent now. They have six dependence on them. And i'm getting ready to go down under sooner rather than the the grandkids. I that you start thinking like a grandpa and and i don't want my grandchildren going to a dentist. That hate sales. I mean if i got my grandchild walks in their four cavities. And you say know. I hate salads. I don't like sows. i'm not a salesman. So then you say will you have four. Cavities like whatever and they walk out and go away. I mean you're not a good dentist. I mean you know the these dentist think they're good dennis because they up fifty micron crown margins will. There's two dennis. And the each get one hundred patients at one cavity each and one dentist gets them all to agree to having all the decay removed and the and the prep packed with butter and the other. Dennis can't get them to do anything. I i'd rather they get their decay removed. The tooth packed with butter. Then going to some dense where they just walk out the door with their credit card. 'cause you know they're going to max or credit card. You know the american people if they earned dollar year they're going to spend a dollar five. This pandemic this. This pandemic really scares me. Because the savings rate went. Off the charts. I've never seen the last time. We had a savings rate. this high. It was nineteen thirty to the beginning of the great depression which means all the individuals from their own. Personal framework are looking around saying. This isn't the time for a new truck or new car. Going trip to disneyland. I think i'm going to store some walnuts in the tree so you got all these individuals. That's why i love the consumer confidence interval. Because who cares what it looks like in phoenix. Or where you're at in dallas. What does it look like everybody on that. Poll and right now. Everybody is saying i'm saving my money for any day. But but my gosh if you if you if you're a dentist and you say you hate sells you can't be good dentist and then i also wanna point out that when you look at the small businesses in the united states who are the only two people that make a hundred year the owner of the small business and the sales guy. And it's and the dentists. Were really the guy in overalls back on the machine shop. Bring a lunch pail. Grinding out the widgets. It's the guy dialing for dollars and outlined cells calls driving by pressing the flesh. That's the guy who makes the big bucks and that guy in dentistry hate sales and instead of saying you hate sells one or two. just say. i'm a shitty dentist. I don't want you to save your teeth. I don't want you to get treatment. I it's like being. It's like being a covid. Nineteen doctor and you're an anti vaccine. Just i want you to really convent's my grandchildren of the importance of getting their cavity filled. You know. I do it out here in phoenix arizona. I'm across ungodly reservation. And i just sit there and say look dude you've got a cavity according to the chart. You haven't been in in four years. The cavities to fifty. If you don't want to give me. Now i don't even care 'cause you're gonna come back and give it to me a couple of years but it's gonna be for an extraction so you give it to me now. You save the tooth. You walk out that door. I'll see a four years later to pull the tooth. I don't care it's not my tooth. What do you want to do and you know. And they just look at me and i. I don't want to lose a tooth. Then we're going to do the filling. Put them in room three. And tell me when you're ready to get in. But they just don't wanna talk. They don't wanna work the floor and they don't want any measurements hygienics. I mean you go into practice three hygienists and at the end of the day. I'll say well okay. What what. What's the score. What do you mean what's were i don't know have you ever watched. Have you ever watched a dallas cowboys. Football game at the end didn't know if they won or lost. Will this lady saw eight rescheduled eight for a recall. This lady saw eight rescheduled six. So she lost a quarter of your practice in one day and this one saw eight and only rescheduled for. And if you won't fire her. I will right now but we keep score. So it's it's so you know it's just so frustrating. So how do you how do you. How can i get a type. A perfectionist introvert with ocd. Who hates sales to realize that if they can't sell dentistry they can't save their patients or a health. Well i think part of it is. You might lose some people by calling them shitty dentists because it's only because the denison talent is what makes us good it is all about clinical and that may not be correct this just the general concept is some of the s clinicians. I know aren't that successful. Because of that same reason they can't sell to patients but what. I usually have tried to figure out myself. And kinda talk to people about over the years is it's not about selling dentistry. It's not about making money. It's not about any of that. It's in order to be a good dentist. You have to do dentistry. And in order to do dentistry have to convince patients that you are the one that needs to do their dentistry. And they have dentistry to do and so all. It is educating the patient in what they need why they need it and why they need it now and that's all education. That's all what we should be doing. That's most dentist should be teachers as well as technicians and as long as you go by bats and you learn how to be a better teacher than you'll get more case acceptance in yes you can call it sales if you want it makes you feel better called education because that's exactly what it is. You've got to educate the patient in what they need. Why they need it now why they should get it from you versus anybody else. And that's i mean that's what it is you can call it sales in college. Education doesn't matter but the best clinicians in the world. It won't make a difference if you can't convince people to let you work on them. And so if you're an it's interesting when you run numbers especially in dios or in offices that are very similar in patients of you know like talk about if you get one hundred patients how many do treat and if one demonstrates eighty and the other treat sixty will. Who's a better dentist. Well one that gets more work done in the one that has better experiences in the one who gets to do it. you know most industries repetition a muscle memory. So the more we get to do the better we get. and so. that's the thing is you just learn how to do more. Dentistry convince people that what you're recommending which all should be ethical and what exactly need and everything else it's actually in the patient's best interest to get it done and so you're right. I'd rather have my kids or my family. Go to a dentist. Who can tell them exactly what they need and get them to do it versus walking out the door and making letting get worse because we all know in dentistry that dental decay doesn't get better on its own and it usually gets worse in a lot of time to get exponentially worse by waiting and so we are for the patient's perspective we are better providers. Let's not say dennis. We are better providers when we can convince them to get the work done quicker and earlier. So you're you have many guests but you yourself say that your dental insurance is one of your key Expertise when. I start talking to dennis about lower insurance. The first thing that comes to their mind is oh. I'm going to hire this fancy. Ppo fee negotiator. And she's going to get me more money for all my fees. And i'm like i don. I don't know if that's really the secret sauce. 'cause i know every dental consultant. That's come on this program says my you could just stand there in the first day we just observe and just looking at the church checked out. It's like okay. The hygienists to bite wings didn't even didn't even get billed out You took an x ray for to check the crown see but you didn't bill it out Th they they look just like two three four hundred dollars a day of stopped at the table. Eight of food and no one even charged him for the appetizers. Do you think do you think the the better route is to get someone to negotiate. Higher fees are the attention to detail of the existing structure. Say both because it's not. It's not a single item that most offices are challenged with. And that's where it comes into play. It's interesting that. I get dentist all the time to ask me questions on how to our office do better. And how do we do this. Like you said most coaches consultants are gonna learn more about what's going on before they can give a diagnosis because everybody comes in with something slightly different but very similar to be honest if you're coming in as a consultant it's the same thing as most people have similar challenges but what their exact challenges is what's going to determine their treatment plan and so if you're looking at your office says what can we do better. I just like a dentist. You have to diagnose the office what's the problem and you're right if you're not billing everything that you're doing that's a problem One of the biggest thing in hygiene is i mean. What does the fda say. An american academy appeared on that. Seventy eighty percent of patients have carried on disease. Well if you run those numbers and you say every patient like half the patients in the population that don't see a dentist. Every one of those perio will that means like forty percent of those that are left that come to our offices appeared disease but if you run the data in the numbers less than fifteen percent of them or seen for more than every six months and so the data just doesn't match up with all the research in the education and means were missing things you know you miss whether to build ray. She missed exams. You miss you miss. You know the injunctive stuff you miss cavity miss fillings. You mis diagnosed treatments. You know you can't convince people to do stuff so you're doing all this busy. Were getting them in getting them. X-rays getting them stuff you're either not getting paid for it or you're not moving to the next of fixing things and yes that can be one of the biggest problems in an office but at the same time you know if you're doing under procedures a month and you can get paid twenty percent more per procedure. Well that's really helpful too so it's not a it's not a one size fits all it's a unique to kinda fix all of them and yes. We negotiate insurance these last year and we got significant increases in our schedules We hire somebody to do it but it helped absolutely now. Was it the single thing. That kinda changed our fee structure last year and why we collect a lot more money. No because most of those fee increases came near the end of the year and they didn't really make a massive difference they probably will this year It was all the things running the business that made the difference by collected more during a pandemic year. So it's it's not one thing that's that's the hard part for a lot of us as we like. Having i think dennis we like having simplicity because dentistry in most cases is simple we get a c. It's directly in front of us. Diagnosis is usually fairly black. And white and a majority of cases. I mean the predictability of dental procedures very high compared to any other spot healthcare. And so you know and most of our dental treatments or one single dental code. It's simple but when you start getting into things that are a little more black and white or no more multiple codes like let's call all in four. there's like twelve different dental codes. That are a part of an all four and you see that question on dental tunnel the time you know. How do i built the song for you. Know the dental the code for an all in four only pays you know twenty five hundred dollars in my lab. P is four grand because you have one out of twelve codes that you need and it's not just one simple thing. That's the challenge. Dentist have a lot is not everything is just that simple. I love Is website is practice whispered dot com. I love your article surviving and thriving after kobe shutdowns. I mean just what. A great article one at one is embracing emergency patients. I could never figure this out when we started dental town in nineteen ninety nine. I thought in real writing. I thought i thought it a couple of my neighbors were crazy. And then i found out that dennis eight emerged space. The they'll talk about. Mrs wimbledon is the perfect patient as she brushes losses every morning and night and get your teeth cleaned every six months. My god. you've never done an kloesel. Malcolm honor you know. You should kick out of the patient and then here comes. Frank hadn't been four years. He's got a toothache he's a he's a disaster and i'm sitting there thinking my god. This is a five thousand dollar case. I mean he drew canal builders and the dentist have attitude against that guy. And they're like well he just walks in here without an appointment. Oh you mean when you just whipped in the drive through arby's and why would you go to arby's when mcdonald's just re released mcrib you moron you know embracing emergency page. I mean a fireman. Big fire policemen. Want to chase the bad guy. Why does dentist get upset when an emergency walks in or comes in unannounced you know and it's like what do you mean comes in on announced. Have you ever gone to a hospital. Emergency room unannounced. Were like my gosh. You know we. We have an emergency room that no one can ever be scheduled for that room. So that if someone's on the phone they don't have to look at scheduling. Just say come on down absolutely on. That's part of that type per saudia. Is we like our scheduled like no surprises. We like things to be very orderly at least and so emergency patients kind of upset that the thing is to think about at least. This is the way i think of it. Why don't we get into dentistry. Most of us to help people who is the most in need of help. That emergency patient pain so a week at of do exactly what we're supposed to do by trading the emergency patients and be if they're that in need of dentistry to kind of put it crossley. They are walking into your office. They're handing near their wallet. They're opening it. There you know shelling out whatever money they want to say look take whatever you want out of here fix my pain and dennis turn it away and i just don't understand it because for me. Not only do. I get paid probably better than doing you know working on mrs jones even though i love mrs johnson senior every six months but she never has anything to do and so from a financial point of view from a business point of view. She's only just paying the bills. But you know. Mr frank that comes in every four years when he has got an emergency while he's the one that really needs you and he's also the one that Guess what you're going to get paid ten times as much for our work on and he's going to be happy with it. You know most of our complaining patients are hygiene patients. The one that you know they've been going forever and now they have one cavity and their line. There's no way in buffalo bar you know. Why do i need this or that. The patients who love us or the ones that come in in an emergency have painting and we get them out of pain. Almost doesn't matter how we do it the fact that you can help them in their greatest time of need is a one of the most rewarding and fulfilling parts about dentistry and the. It's what we're here for. And yeah you get paid more to do it too. Which is nice so it's like a win win. All the way around it it can just figure out how to get out of your mind of. They might be slightly ruining your schedule. You just walk in and for us at our office. It's more of a mindset change. It's if you can figure out ways systems to make an emergency patient not ruin your day and make it fairly seamless. Then you get to help people gonna make more money and you get to do it in a way that mostly stress free and it works out. Great i mean. I had to patients today One of them came with broken tooth needed crown. Another one came in with broken tooth neater now. We had a fairly busy day but we got both of them in in their time of well to me. That's a great thing. Patients love this. So no i don't see why don't but i i get is the personality thing is to taipei thing and it's it's just something i had to get around years ago early in my career and the thing that helps for me is i did a lot of post op calls and those patients most appreciate. Oh my god. Thank you so much for helping me. I was able to sleep and blah blah blah blah blah and. It's heartwarming and you know what other industries do we. Do you get to help someone in that graded need and make a good living doing it. And that's why. I think industry is still wanna best industries in the world like your earlier question. Would you still get into industry. Heck yeah until anybody to while you've just got to get in it with the realization. Can't just be good at concl- also have to be good at other aspects. So i'm dennis that Use you as a consultant brandon wight Dds it is important for us professionals of all practice styles and philosophies to have avenues to learn from which are professional ethical imbalance. We are fortunate as a profession. Have travis willing to share his time. Experience with us There towel That drives campbell has a wealth of knowledge highly. Recommend anyone looking for advice on prakash managing how we put my hands on the new book. i mean on and on. Let's say you. Thirty five hundred posts on john legend. Are you do. how does your consulting work. Do you do a In person over the phone out. How does it work. So i've got a couple of different ways. People find me a lot of the insurance stuff people just to sending messages. And if i can get a quick answer. Great do If i can't then we set a call or i'll get an attached to a ce. Course that'll kind of answer the question for them and the entire team When it comes to like practice management stuff than best thing is to go on my website and just felt a little form. That's on there you know. What are your specific needs. And what timing can we talk. And then i usually set up a just a consultant. Call an hour or two. We'll go through. Whatever their challenges are. And then i almost always try to have them be able to walk away from that hall that free call With some really good tips and what they can do whether they work with near not and then the ones that continue we have to kind of options for on the practice management side. One of them's remote one of them's in person and really majority of it comes down to the smaller offices. Usually the ones collecting less than a million a year. It everything we need to do is remote has by now i can diagnose most of what's going on through some online integration and some practice management data that we can get and so it's it's easy for me to be able to help the team through zoom and other ways without me physically being in the office which helps keep the cost down for the smaller offices for the larger offices. Usually a lot of them are doing the generic stuff really well. And i mean that's what it took them to get above a million and so i do have to kind of go in there and personally figure out exactly what it's gone like you said what is not getting billed out or you know due to people just not agree with each other or is there tension in the office or all those things that really have to physically be there to see and feel And so that just requires more time and effort to do but certainly fun. Because i get a you know kinda see almost my own past of the office that i used to have that was having a lot more challenges and being the fix them a much way than i fixed myself i tell. People is kind of a consultant junkie for a while that i probably in my career spent half a million dollars just consulting I enjoyed it. I had with the same time i want them to come in and fix it versus. Teach me how to do it myself. And that doesn't necessarily work because you know when you're running the office you kind of have to be a part of running the office I probably would have spent a whole lot less money. If i learned that one key is coaches consultants can come in and give you all the tools that you need. You have to be the one to actually pick them up and using and if you can figure that out save yourself about a bunch of time effort money and be a lot more successful if you ever do. Hire someone to help you. Yeah that's why. I fired my nutritionist. Because i pretty much should have known. I'm supposed to eat broccoli instead of receives peanut butter cups but even but So i wanna ask you. I got i can't get the insurance goo religion on here without asking the most obvious questions you know. They say half of marriages fail. And my gosh who were always dealing with primary and secondary insurance and then they got the divorce thing going so the dad and the mom who knows what mental games going. I mean it's just You know in some people say you know anyway. What's the bottom line on primary and secondary insurances especially during a divorce with kit. Well i mean that's not what. It's that one's a lot of different scenarios so in general if you have a policy in your own name that's typically primary versus if you have a policy from say a spouse or parents or things like that. That's going to be your secondary policy When you start having kids and divorces the interesting thing that comes across as you can call the insurance company and figure out an ass which one primary which one secondary and they'll give you the correct answer usually sometimes and we don't know and the reason they don't know is so many divorces heart of the process is coming up with who's responsible and in many cases the judge or court order is determining who is responsible for. Let's say insurance and if that's the case you may have both parents have insurance and one of them by court order is defined as primary. And that's what they have to go by. Which is why the insurance companies usually tell you if they know what they're talking about they'll say well it depends on what you court order says. You know if you're quarter says the wife is responsible then. The mother's responsibility quarter says the data responsible today. That's responsible and so you've gotta usually submit that information when it comes to divorces along with your claims so the insurance company knows that they're following the law now it comes in general to normal insurance that's primary and secondary one of the biggest things that a lot of people mistake is how much to charge the patients out of pocket and in most cases. The best way to do it. I've ever found is charged patient. Like they don't have secondary bill the secondary later if they pay anything refund the patient. It's easy patients that get money back later are happy people but if you under charge them and then you have to ask for might later. They're usually unhappy people. So always overestimate with their out of pocket. Costs going to be and everyone becomes happier. Here's the biggest mystery. I can't figure out. I mean and this has been happening. The amount of life like when i when i opened my practice or two adorable brothers out here trophy wives and kids the all american dream and one of them bad guy innocent guy. Just just crazy well. The injures line paper have that pay for a crown and patients are like. That's a lot of money so he just thought we know what i'll do. Let's i'll just bill him for crown on the first and second molar. So they'll pay to have so the first and second mower and then you won't have to pay out of pocket for the crown. So whenever he build for a molar he built for the one behind it. To and of course the insurance companies they. There's this little thing. I know you've heard before called algorithms that say john ninety five percent of all the dennis and one crown at a time and bozo ears ninety percent of them are two time they audit the office and he gets five years. Let me just sum up the twenty. Nineteen virginia virginia license. Anna's sentenced to eight and a half years to distribute prescription. Opiates we know. A lot of time. october two thousand nineteen missouri federal prosecutors alleged to dennis In a missouri dental practice participate in two different schemes defraud fraud medicaid. And the first game patients were alleged provided a fifty dollar or mouthpiece designed to straighten teeth meditate k program was and build seven hundred dollars for a speech eight process prosthesis in the second scheme federal prosecutors say the dentist variety dentures and other dental services to patients who do not qualify and the to dennis settled for eight hundred eighty. Five thousand dollars maryland. Dental practice owner and former dennis maryland pacts agreed to pay a five point. Four million dollar. Fine and four million dollars in forrester authorities said the former dentist who is currently serving a sixteen years. Satins just goes on. And on and on and then june two thousand nine hundred ninety tennessee tennessee denison practice owner sentenced for two years and nine months and was ordered to pay nine hundred six five thousand restitution for pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit healthcare fraud for orchestrating us grand scheme to defraud tennessee care and other healthcare benefits authorities said that dennis causes submission of fraudulent claims attend care and other health benefits programs for work. That was never done. This really sharp. Denison san diego she Cnn all my god. It was something like she. She kept sending in the same way for that needed a root canal and she sent it in. It was crazy like music hundreds of times and she's the same age as me. great person. great. Dennis all i can say well. Now she's going to go sit in a cage for years and it's like my god so the point. I'm trying to make this when i got out of school but the only way. Embezzle with the dental office you had to come in my office and get a check out of my door and forge name and cash. It and that happened to me. Because i kept waiting for the check to come back. So finally call my my bank. And darlene wing. I called her and she said well. Every time you cash your check we take picture all all. Enter the numbers. The numbers goes yeah. I got a picture right here. Let me out on the xerox. She walked over there. And it's my damn dental assistant. And i went and showed her this and said. Why did you cash this check. I forgot what it's for. I think it was like a thousand dollars. Something and she just immediately just freaked out. Crying ran out. The door never saw her again. I mean who knows you're doing but in a digital world that trail is miles long and we. Now there's like a hundred ways stealing office but when you start doing insurance style and the other thing people don't know is they never got the bad mafia guy in chicago in jail for all the murders and they got him on mail order fraud because when when gross yeah what was it are al capone al capone. Yeah when he was doing it through this stuff through the mail when it crossed the state line. It was actually a three year penalty. But these dentists are doing these insurance frauds across state lines and all the sudden out of nowhere. Mr do good perfect. Greet life is sitting in a cage. I mean what your insurance expert you see a lot of this fraud I see a lot more of a detached to government. Programs like medicaid medicare tricare. Things like that Mostly because it's i think it's easier to defraud them but they're also going to be more diligent about going after its But a lot of it comes from. And i see minor fraud issues more than anything. You know stuff that probably won't in jail that stuff that will do if they were find it with large shines One of them like you said. And i've seen it as a suggestion before i usually try to correct it when i see it is exactly what you talked about. You know how about you. Just take good x ray of that truth and send that same extra in that same narrative on everyone your own claims or recount claims will that's lying and lying to an insurance company is the definition of fraud so that is one problem that is out there as a myth of what is suggested i. Another one is cash fees mean. It people don't seem to realize that whatever you charge a cash patient normally. So let's say you have a fifteen hundred dollar crown fee but you only are gonna charge mrs jones in the system and mr do good Thousand dollars because they're paying cash well. Bat is in itself not fraudulent. But the second you turn around and bill an insurance company that same fifteen hundred dollars which is different than you would normally charge cash patient. Data's fraud and that happens all the time and it is one of those things that aren't going to get like hit on if that's their only problem but if like you said you know you start giving audits for you know doing a different amount of services than the average dentist and then that initiates an investigation to your office in that investigation pulls up other things like cash rod issues. Then you're gonna get hit with a whole bunch of stuff and it is challenge in a lot of it. i think i'm strong either ignorance Just not knowing the rules are in. Unfortunately ignorance is not a protection against the law And some of it comes from you know honestly insurance companies calls oh. I'm stressed at denison dental offices and they feel like there should be retribution of some kind. And that's one way to do it but this is what i teach people. Time is a there shouldn't be a ton of stress that comes from insurance. There's always going to be some but it should be fairly minor has again. They're very predictable in what they do and be is. There are plenty of ways to get around the challenges that are illegal And that won't land you in either jail or huge times. And so i mean and that's the thing there's solutions for almost everything that are much easier much less problematic And wohlend you in hot water later. Well the one thing. I wanna say abundantly clear is that You know i i you know. It's no it's no mystery that i cannot stand the government i mean government in general i love history and when you go back five thousand years today They've done more wrong than right. I mean most historians saint. That government's probably killed six percent of the people were as humans in their family probably only killed one percent but held. Mosquitoes killed half of all the humans that ever lived in the last two hundred thousand years is very good when you can compare them to Mosquitoes but the bottom line is if you have a problem with Your local delta dental in your state usually if you guys get a disagreement it's you're just gonna you're just gonna work it out or maybe i mean i don't even know of any i'm not i'm not aware of any local issues that got out of hand but if you're mailing it across the state line then it's a federal offense but it just seems like with medicaid like i know dentist. One of them was a good friend of mine. His second wife was just adorable but she wonder office manager and she was like ten or fifteen years. We'll she was. She was a little insane on the insurance billing and all the other companies when they found out you know whatever. They wanted refunds. Whatever but the ones for medicare the best lawyer he could find in the state of missouri said. I'm you're you know. I could probably get added gel in seven in seven because my wife is insane and so he had to leave the country and he went to mexico when the you know they certainly wanted a great dentists american dennis from missouri. But he actually died there a little bit. I think last around the thanksgiving time. But i mean if you mess up with blue. Cross blue shield. There's going to be money and and aggravation but you must have with medicaid. They're gonna come kidnap you. Take you before pontius pilot. And then you're going to go sit in the cage. And so i do. Not take any government medicaid. Because i just see how and then the other thing is. Look the league prosecution when you have a process. Look at the nfl. What is the average team record. Fifty fifty go look at the federal government's prosecution rain. It's about ninety five percents success rate so it cannot be fair. You know it's heavy handed. It comes with a lot of. And and whatever i mean. I just can't tell you. You don't do medicaid you don't do medicare because if you think you miss an mba to hear their in your lifetime. Wait till you find out you got some girl. Friday up front to screw up your medicaid billing and then when they find out some pinhead lawyer wants to make a name for himself and he wants to get you thrown away for as long as you can. And then he'll get a promotion. I mean i. I don't trust those guys for anything. And i would never do business with them and i just i just listed six k look and their self righteousness. They always caused the problem. Like like healthcare's unaffordable. We'll wise and unaffordable. Because you're in texas some dennis. Mexico walked up there and started practicing in part of dallas. That's all mexicans and and they would arrest him and put him in a cage because he was practicing without a license. Okay so there's your problem. Healthcare was never an affordability issue until they started all the state boards. Dental examiners look at the opioid crisis. Nobody's dying from opioid. They're dying with six or seven things in their bloodstream. Because you band. They can't go to walgreens and by opie and just like they couldn't buy alcohol during capone's time so someone like prince who has a jet is flying around looking for opioids made in the bathtub. It's made like crap so since they make it illegal to buy pharmaceutical grade. Hydrocortisone at walgreens. Buying from someone who made it in his bathtub and then they say well look fifty. Thousand people died and got three million people in jail. And they're like what is wrong with these to the government. Always the same thing they break it and then they they come up with a baseball bat. Break your legs offer to help you. Buy a wheelchair. And what they don't know is that they're always the source of the problem. They're never the source of the solution. But in. but. I digress. And i can't believe we've gone over an hour and you're so nice with your time and all that kind of stuff. I'm just wondering my gosh. I want to end on this note. You know how when. Dennis get burned out in frustration. Whatever they had this deep rooted fantasy that they're just gonna drop all insurance and i always saw. If you're going to have a fantasy it should include you. Know britney spears and madonna not dropping all your insurance because i got an mba and the nba. S show me that in the last two hundred years anytime. The government subsidizes something or free. Price makes it cheaper. You sell more of it So when a dentist tells me. I say well. What is your favorite procedure. Oh man if i could just if i could just extract teeth all day i'd be the happiest man in the world and i said okay. Well i know a. I know a company that's got three hundred locations on that one marketing thing and that was affordable denture care. They go into every town and they run one ad that says ninety nine dollars a tooth extraction and affordable dentures like who the hell needs a tooth extracted. I don't needed to extracted. Nobody on earth needs one tooth extracted without having a disaster mouth. Got perreault ten cavities. And then you come in that ninety nine dollar extraction and they got fourteen cavities gum disease. You needed dentures partial implants but what will the dentist do. I'll say. What is your favorite procedure. Oh man i love crown and bridge. I love kronenbourg. Okay so what do you do about it. Well i think i'm gonna try to raise my fee from nine hundred to a thousand. Oh so you hate crown and bridge. No i love it okay. If you love it you would make it cheaper and you do more but by making it more expensive or more regulation or more red tape. The you're gonna do less of it so my my sink question is how likely is it. A guy like you in dallas drop all insurance and live happily ever after extremely uncommon I think the ada rate of study that said something like eighty five percent of offices deal with insurance what percent eighty five eighty five and a majority of patients will go to the dennis on a regular basis because of insurance and a majority of the patients who avoid the dentist or either doing because of fear or because of the lack of insurance and so insurance is unnecessary heart and you can call a necessary evil if you want. It's a necessary part of healthcare. It just that is what it is. You can complain all you want. It's just the reality of the situation. And so you know if the challenge a lot of people don't realize is if you drop networks you will drop your patient pool now. How much you drop your patient pool by is the biggest problem. If you're gonna drop your patient pool and you're making one point five million dollars and you're gonna drop some patients or you probably not gonna get hit so hard but if you drop your patient and you're only collecting five hundred thousand dollars a year. You're probably going to have some major issues because you're already at that kind of fixed x sense of the office. You know you've got to pay your rent. You got pay your bills you gotta pay your payroll And you don't have a lot of wiggle room and there are issues with dropping insurance now. The things to think about on that and i'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying you've really got to be careful doing it. Is what's the saturation near area. You know if there's one hundred didn't within a mile of you all of them are in network you dropping insurance is probably gonna call some problems if your office is already kind of struggling a little bit dropping insurance is probably gonna call some extra problems. you know. If you can't have your team and your marketing injure yourself be able to say. I am literally the best inist in this area in something whether it's implants didn't cheers or just general dentistry. Any drop network. Why would somebody pay more money to come. See you than the dennis down the street. And if you cannot articulate that extremely well dropping insurances probably gonna call. She problems the issue. A lot of people tend to not realize and it's why they even discuss dropping. Insurance is they don't know the cost of their treatment from crown point of view. Let's say you get. You said six fifty. Let's low sure our area but you. We negotiated higher for that thankfully Let's go with six fifty you know if you're gonna pay two hundred dollar bill for six hundred fifty dollar crown. You're not gonna make very much but if you can turn around to pay a hundred dollar lab bill for that. Six hundred fifty dollar crowned guess what you profit margins went way to the roof. And so it's one of those things of is interesting dilemma. That a lot of us. Dennis want to provide what we consider as the best quality of care and the challenges we we tend to not realize the best quality of care. It doesn't always have to be the highest expense. And so you know. There's a big difference between using name brand products and generic products. There's a big difference between using high in labs and budget labs and if you're ppo office you've really gotta stick more to the budget side of things and you know it's it's a lot different to charge patient two thousand dollars for crown and have five hundred dollar lab fee than is to charge them six fifty for crown and have that same hundred dollar labsi. It just doesn't work out and so that's one of those things that you know. If you really wanna help your office in decide whether or not to go in or out of network you kinda gotta look at all the factors and one of them is. What is the ability for us to draw our cost of providing procedure so that we can make it affordable to be able to charge less and still make the same if not more money out of it you know. How efficient are we. How much time does it take. Some of those things go into it but in reality most industry that we provide is extremely profitable. almost any fee differences. Can you do enough of it to make that work. I mean why does walmart work. Walmart's usually the lowest fee out there. It works because on volume. Well if you have volume and insurance works if you don't have volume insurance tends to not work and so it's all about getting that volume I i know some offices that have dropped network and have been successful with it but they do it very systematically they have a plot process for in a plan for usually a year or two or three in advance and kind of do it in stages. I've seen offices go bankrupt by going out of network too because they didn't have a process for they lost of connotations doing it and now they couldn't sustain themselves so it's one of those things of jesus gotta be prepared for now for me. I don't ever plan on getting out of insurance. I mean we negotiated fees that are pretty high in pretty good. So why would. I need to as caesar fairly similar to what we would charge all cash patient And that's a positive thing and we're we're more efficient within. Our team is very well trained to be able to produce industry and bring in emergencies and get a lot done in a single day. Well that's what it takes and our costs or procedure our expenses on the lower end. Because we've been able to either find labs or find suppliers that you know. Keep our cost down and all of those go into play of you know just profitability in any businesses. How much money a bring the in and how much money you're sending out and for every procedure we do. It's gotta be profitable and there are some things. I walked into offices and they're doing procedures. That are actually losing the money. They're paying more money out than they're making and they're literally losing money every time they do that senior. Well neither gotta change fees. You gotta stop doing that. Procedure you gotta figure out something It'd be interesting. Good example of that but there are so many aspects to it. And that's what i enjoy like. I said it's a big puzzle. I enjoy puzzles together. Well you know. It's so true. The fact that i'm like you go to any dental office. And you say okay. You're hygienist just checked out a patient. She was in there and our she cleaning examined by wings. She's been here ten years. Did you net five dollars and twelve cents after taxes or lose thirteen bucks. They have no idea because they have their delta dental. I mean they're they're denture. Eagles soft Is over here with all their insurance and billing information. And then they're quick book their quicken or quickbooks pro or whatever is over here and then they kinda connected with a dash for. I mean it's just the most insane system i've ever seen in the dso's what they'll do is like steve thorne of pacific dental. He went to a practice. management company. Said i want to buy a copy of your of your mouth of your Practice vengeance system. But i want to buy it own it outright. I won't salt anyone else. But i'm just gonna take what you've got higher my own programmers and go for their and what he did from there is connected to his accounting software. So i look at the. Dso's i mean they absolutely no to the minute. What's going on. they it man imagine. Imagine if you were seven eleven and you sold a million units water a year. And but you didn't know what you bought the bottle of water for you sell it for nine different prices. I mean how dennis they don't know their cost. They don't know their cost of goods and services assault I know it's been over an hour and you're at a long day and you're wondering when is this idiot. Shut up But my gosh. I'm just trying to think what it would be my final question or any of the practice under softwares. Do think better than the others. Oh that's a great question and again it depends on what what you're looking for. In general i mean some of them are better than others in lots of different ways gen. Trix instance is still. I think the most well used so when you're talking about acceptability from new employees or temps or anything else almost everybody's worked with So are the easiest to bring in new people and get them to work with it but it's expensive open. Dental is free to And then it's just the management fee monthly but a lot cheaper and so it runs really well the challenger districts is it charges. Everybody work as a third party. And so this eagle soft and the others while the open platforms like open. Dental doesn't charge A third party company to get into their soccer in use it and work with it. So you know. There's there's a lot of pros and cons on different softwares really depends on what you're looking for. There's one in general we're looking at right now. That promises to be pretty good. But i don't know. I've got get a lot more information about it to figure it out but it is starting to try to integrate which you're talking about you know integrate the cpa site integrate. Your phone's integrate. Your reviews integrate reporting. And if it can do it the way it's supposed to should be pretty awesome So it's one of those things of it just depends on looking for now if i knew nothing about an office. Nothing they're looking for. You just had to tell me you are asking me. What one soccer would someone pick. I'd probably look at open. Didn't i if another reason. It's freedom last question again. These fantasies They have all the time and one of them is now. The new rogue is. I'm just going to outsource my dental insurance billing. There's plenty of companies. i'm there. They'll do it all for me. I'll never have to do that again. What what's your vice on that. Why should i read your book and learn how to do it when i can outsource it all a lot. Easier great question. And here's the biggest thing. I found along the way with insurance. Most insurance Meaning entrance billing issues. Comprom- a lack of correct documentation if the clinical team does not know what they need to document. No matter who you get biller. They are going to have a hard. If not failing process. Along the way you know for instance what you do for crowns. What pictures your take. What extras you're taking. What narratives you're writing if that's all not right. It doesn't matter who you hire. They're still going to have huge challenges with getting money from insurance documents So outsourcing can be a good thing. But you can't outsource if you don't understand the process you need to outsource if you do understand the process and you still find. It's less expensive or somehow better for you to outsource most offices. I know irv see that. Have outsourced are doing it because they want to try to push the problem onto someone else and yet the promise. still internal. it's they're not getting the right documentation and if you don't get the right documentation with insurance you're not going to get paid and then you're gonna have to deal with the patient on billing them so it's it's one of those things. If you ever file an insurance claim for a patient you need to understand intimately what you're doing if you want to be successful with it and that doesn't matter whether you're you know you have a third party doing it or you're doing an internal. You still have to know the ins and outs of what you're doing. And that's the biggest thing. I try to teach people is if you can understand the insurance company and you can understand what they want. You get paid almost every time. I mean we do. Probably three hundred ish crowns a year I have maybe one or two claims that get nine save number scaling cleanings a year and we probably have one or two that get denied every year and most of those that get denied. We're kind of on the fence about. Whether due to the insurance policy they would be covered and so when they do get denied. Guess what we're not actually going up to the patient for money because we already figured it was a challenge to the patients already paid us in full so it. It's one of those things of when you understand the insurance company and the process and everything that goes with it. It's not a hard thing to do. It's just very detailed. And that's when i talk to people about is once you learn the process everything becomes exponentially easier and it's one of those things of one hundred procedures and get paid for sixty of or do you wanna do eighty procedures and get paid for eighty of them honestly. I'd rather do less work and get paid more new more work and get paid less and all it is is. Are you going to get reimbursed or not and if you understand it you'll get reimbursed a whole lot better. You'll have much happier patients. You'll have much more successful office and a lot less stress. I'll tell you what you've done so much for my career. I've i'm a big fan of your post. My office manager dawn. I got about a half dozen people who've been with me twenty years plus on the way to thirty and you're one of those few people who actually quoted you know what i mean and They they go to dental town and they look what you said and they tell me. Well you know blah blah blah and There's so many people like that. When's your next book. Come out so we're looking at the publishers told me probably somewhere around maybe september september so so nine months from now okay. Submitted it Intercept to do some x.'s. And things to that but it's already to the publisher just takes a long time to get them to put everything together. Which is just the process. I mean you ever read a book like you said it's nine month you know. It's an earth process. Well in nine months of you when you release if you want to come back on this show to talk it or send me the links to push it out. Some people with books make an hour long online secours. That you've actually the and comes with whatever. I can do to help you get the message out. You've done so much for everyone else. You've done so much for dental town. And i just want them to get this information because i really feel like when i got out in eighty seven you can make a lot of bad mistakes and still do really well but if you got four hundred thousand dollars. Student loans fluoridated water a dental dental schools. In your state. I mean there's not a lot of wiggle room to make a lot of screw ups and a lot of these dentist. They have to hit the ground per site. It's like landing a parachute. Now they gotta landed just right and they're often running and if you with four hundred thousand soon loans. Wrong location wrong demographics parachute you might land and break a few legs and nada now running and you're the guy can land them without parachute right where he needs to be so anything. I can do to help you. what what's good for. You is good for dentistry. So let me know whatever i can do to help appreciate that. Howard i'd love talking to you. I'm be happy to talk to you again later. Yeah when whenever. And when when you get the book in september for sure what whatever just come back and make it online secours to more detail. Whatever you think is. is best for dentistry. Just consider it done. I appreciate that. Thank you all right. And if you ever get down to beeville wave see foregone kids walking on the street wave. Hi good all right. Have a great day. Thank you so much for coming on the show. My pleasure thank you. Our thousands of texas and schick owners have added a jazz sensor to their practice using our unique subscription option preserve your capital while never having to worry about warranty and support again visit jazz. Imaging dot com. That's jazz imaging dot com.

dennis texas dallas baylor college phoenix sandy weill houston Dr travis campbell baylor college dentistry dr campbell walmart Baylor college ministry texas dean lawrence wolinsky farley dixon timothy rix beeville
Tosh Hall

Design Matters with Debbie Millman

49:20 min | 1 year ago

Tosh Hall

"And I said what do you WANNA see my book. And she's like I've seen it and she said what he wants to talk about and she said ambition and so we talked about what we wanted to create and ended up drinking budweiser's for about three hours and Budweiser was the first real brief. That was coming may long story short. I woke up with a hangover. New Job This is design matters with Debbie Millman for fifteen years to be millman has been talking talking with designers and other creative people about what they do how they got to be who they are and what they're thinking about and working on on this episode of conversation with designer Taj talk about how to work with established brands. Leave the brand better than you found it and do no harm a lot of cases that you've seen in the last twenty years in our field people have Clark those rules. Here's Debbie I with the word from our sponsor I love to travel whether it is for pleasure or business or design conferences or speaking the engagements. I love to visit places. I've never been before and experience new things. AC hotels by mariot has been striking the perfect balance of the the details. I want when I'm on the road. AC hotels are intuitively designed refined crafted and considered to create an elegant unobtrusive experience that lets me maximize enjoyment inspiration and efficiency. The guest rooms provide me with everything I need need and nothing there uncluttered and truly comfortable letting you live life by design not by default. AC hotels was number of Marietta. Bonfire the perfectly precise hotel visit. AC hotels at a C.. HYPHEN HOTELS DOT COM to learn. Learn more talks hall. Is the global chief creative officer at the branding firm Jones Knowles Ritchie his portfolio uh-huh includes big name brands like Dunkin target and Budweiser and he's been named one of the fifty most creative people by advertising age but he didn't get into design and branding the typical way through art or design school which is probably one of the reasons he has such interesting things to say about design branding in our era of constant change Tosh Hall. Welcome to design matters drinks. W what is this the fifteenth year. I've been listening to you for fifteen years before even really got into branding. So what hat here exciting. Thank you TASHA. Understand that your creative life life began with crayons and a mother who indulged your desire to draw by covering the walls and the floors of your House House with paper so you could run wild and do what so. Many parents actually screaming at their kids not to do. What kinds of things were you making in drying and I have no idea? I'm sure terrible but instead of I think what most parents probably do. Is they smack your hand and they clean the wall when you draw they scream scream scream and instead for some reason the favorite place of mine was the art closet and so the closet was full of lots of different art. Lots of different supplies paint glitter glue. Your mother hadn't art closet our closet and so I'll go to the art closet takeout. Whatever I wanted draw not only on the walls but on the floor and and she kept them? All machine. Hippie should definitely was a hippie and what did he do for a living well at the time she was a creative to. She was a dancer the answer. She was going to school at Ohio State. Doing all kinds of interpretive hippie seventies dance stuff for ballet probably who knows what and then when I came along she left dance in the kind of creative way behind left dances a ballerina or some studying dance and then of course it's the eighty s and so. It's all about about aerobics. So she was like a little Jane Fonda of the South hadn't she. Musk influence you. I mean insulin's me a lot because I grew up and she's a single mother for a long time and so it started with creativity as a vehicle for expression. Not really anything that you could earn a living at. I only found that much later as much as we could went to every art museum. We went everywhere that we could see something cultural symphonies. Everyone goes the nutcracker everything you could have have from Ashville and Charlotte and then Washington DC so just further and further and further out we would take trips to Smithsonian so as much as I could absorb that that was a big thing and your mom I understand saved a lot of these huge pieces of paper. Have you ever looked back at them. Have you reconsidered. What you're early? Artistic talent was like no talent. It was terrible. It's been bad for years. Some children create great art mine. Was I think just fund fund with materials. So now she still has them but they're weird. You told Ed weeks that you don't know how you start a career and branding it three years old with a Crayon. But in retrospect it seems to make sense. Have you always been that free wheeling with your creativity probably not. I think everything makes sense. In retrospect at the time I think I didn't even know that creativity was a profession that you could even work in this field. I didn't figure that until I was in college and got got exposed to print magazine. That was the very first realized it was even a career and graphic design. Will you studied economics in journalism at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. Why right economics given the upbringing that you had art was always a passion a hobby and school? I was good at science good math. I liked the study of economics from like a trends. And what's happening in the world and the kind of how businesses are built. I like the study and theory of it but when I studied economics all my friends ended up either becoming economics professors coming to Wall Street and workings bankers doing something with their economics degree that was more traditional and none of that's right for me. Why Journalism Journalism I I like journalism was the communications vehicle when I discovered graphic design was thing it turns out that the universe North Carolina had a very small program in the journalism program and it was really through a print magazine? You just discovered an issue sitting somewhere on a table so I would go out in the summer so my aunt in California and then I went there for Thanksgiving one year. And she's like what are you GonNa do. You're studying economics. Is that really your passion. We're walking on the beach in California in Santa Barbara after Thanksgiving and it's a hippy. Kind of California thanksgiving the MOM's sister mom's sister and so it's a very California not traditional walking on the beach not watching football. And she's like what are you doing with your life. I said well. I'm studying Economics because what are your passions like creativity. I like music. Maybe that could be a jazz musician. And she's like no no. Why should just like? I'm terrible at Jazz. Apparently and so so she said well how about something in the arts. What do you think about something to use your passion and creativity? Tippety what would you do. I'm like I don't even think there's jobs that you can do. And she for some reason out of curiosity and interest had subscription to print went back from the beach and she showed me the back issues and I started looking at them for Christmas that year. She got me a subscription and I would go through it every year and look at what was happening in New York. Look at what's happened in California and think. Oh this is a real job. Then I made my list of places I wanted to work at so that was the very beginning. Well we'll get to that in a minute or two. I understand that you got your first first job working with WHO described as a craggy pressman with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth and ink smeared on his hands. So what was that job and where was it. University North Carolina press known as UNC printing. The Time Heidelberg press it was huge My first internship ship they had just started to get Max and I was doing work on the Mac and I was working quirk express and I was like a junior designer with senior designers and design directors. Kind of helping helping me do some stuff for the university and I would do things and then upstairs are go to the craggy pressman who basically wrap my knuckles and say you can't print with ninety colors. Here's what Mike is this. Here's a PMS as and I've actually learned everything's are doing it. Did he have a t shirt with a particularly interesting message on it. Price Superior inks. I don't know Ah. The most interesting message was at the very first year that I was at UNC. Printing there was a stripping department that did film stripping before we went direct to plate and my real job is stripping. You then completed an internship in the art department of publisher in London. How and why did you you end up in London? And what were you designing. I wanted to go to London because I was nineteen and you could drink beer in London. I've never been to London. That was the sole criteria. Yeah Yeah my friends in Econ Department who actually you know. We're getting good grades and had internships at banks we're going and I thought that would be fun. I should go and so I told my mother. I got a job in pub- she said that's not good enough. You need a real internship you got to think about your career so I find my self publishing firm originally showed up at the publishing publishing firm as just an intern. That does anything. I was wearing khaki pants if you can imagine. Button up blue blazer with gold buttons as from Chapel Hill had a kind of yellow tie. Hi and a blue Oxford shirt terrible. Sounds like you're going to a bum. It's Yup. I was going to a preppy internship in London which was strange I showed up and they said are you here to fix the copier and I said No. I'm in turn will make us a cup of tea then and I was terrible making tea so I wasn't allowed to make any more. I had alphabetize files. I did whatever they wanted me to do. And then I went from department to Department until I landed in the art department and it was the design department and they had stacks briefs for book covers and the designer at the bottom of the stack and said here have fun with that and I had worked in the school newspaper so I knew how to use. Cork Expressway started laying out some books. And they circulated them an editors victim. Says you're staying in this department and you're GONNA book covers. Did you enjoy. I loved it. What year was that would have been like ninety eight or ninety nine so you you came to New York immediately after graduating New York September? Two thousand one. Why did you choose that particular time? Well I did what I told my parents. This is the second degree in journalism which was really just a victory lap in college like five years and then when I graduated it was time to go somewhere to pursue graphic design. I couldn't couldn't get a visa in London. I didn't know anyone in San Francisco and friends were in New York and so my girlfriend and I just got a U.. Haul in New York City you moved moved to New York City with what you've described as the worst possible portfolio imaginable and subsequently found the transition to be a harsh wake-up recall what happened. What was it difficult well? The timing was an awesome. I showed up September first two thousand one and ten days later. We had September eleventh. So that was eh. You know my parents and everyone said moving back home. Obviously and I said No. I'm staying New York. City is where I'm GonNa be as the best place to be graphic designer. I had a portfolio that was hilarious. The giant aluminum box everything was original everything was on illustration board. And I thought that I was. I was great because I was doing real work. I was getting paid to do covers offers. I thought I've made it. Obviously I'm going to show up with my portfolio New York City and get a job. Pentagram dropped it off. This is when they had portfolio dropbox on Tuesdays and Thursdays so I dropped opted off the one just above Madison Square Park to the attention of buckle Beirut obviously and he wrote me a very nice letter it said. Don't be discouraged urged. Obviously we're not hiring you but New York. Obviously we're not no. That was the impression from me. I know it was do not be discouraged. New York is a great place to be a designer honor. Staying in touch. Keep doing what you're doing. Of course I didn't stay in touch it but it was a very nice letter. I still have it see. You started to job search. She began with this list of your favorite design firms. Pentagram was number one. I believe lander was number two. Who Else did you apply for jobs with our remember out of the top opt-in and basically I just looked at the print magazines who is either winning awards getting recognized in the regional annual? who had heard of who were branding firms out there? Top Ten doc twenty-five top fifty in house printers Kinko's tell us what happened. Why was it so difficult called for you? I think it was a tough time to look for a job in New York. I think that I felt like an outsider. I wasn't I didn't go to school. I didn't have any connections because I didn't go to. Sca I didn't really know how to do anything. I had some on the job. Experience working in printing book covers. You know I I thought chip kidd was has the coolest imitated as work. I hadn't found what my voice wasn't designing. Also I was just a little bit behind the curve so I went through all the places to try to find anyone anyone that would give me a chance. Why wouldn't Kinko's hire you? That was hilarious experience. Tell US seventy seventy second street and Broadway in New York. City is not gonNA break me. I'm going to find a job. I understand the actual quote was Fuck You New York. You're not going to break me. That was after I went in and said excuse me Sir. Can I have an application. and He. I said we're we're not. We're not accepting applications at this time. Can I speak to your manager. I am the manager and I think he was younger than me and I said can I have application. Anyway I'll l. fill it out and he said sure but we're not going to accept it as it. Just just give it to me. Give it to me. I walked outside. Broad daylight. Seventy second and Broadway burst into xeres crumpled in in in my fist through the trash and I did give New York City the bird and told New York City fuck off. It won't bring me. How did you eventually get a John? It costs money to use the alumni directory for some reason at that point so I use my girlfriend's logging and typed in for for the universe North Carolina Nineteen fifty to the present graphic design. And I got four. Hits Two of them were receptionists. I went to meet them and ask ask you know how how I could get my during they said well you can be the receptionist because I'm looking for my replacement and I considered it. One of them was an architecture firm and they had to work on. PC's sees so. I just refused. One of them was more interesting. What I said can I get into the design department? There's no we want you to answer phones. I said could I get into the design of permanent some point. No you're the receptionist. The third person I called was doing something loud and I had this whole terrible spiel. Hi I'm Josh North Carolina. I'm studying graphic design. I mean your city I want to be designer. Can can you help me. And he was doing something like moving or some loud noises. In the background he stopped what he's doing and said New York City is hard graphic designers. fucking harder good luck. Tuck Bang phone. Hung Up. Fourth person was the head of the studio revlon named Phil Li. And he's like sure come visit bring your portfolio. And so did I showed up. Go to this fifty-eighth Madison the big lipstick building revlon at its peak. Go there. I'm here to see Phil Li. He's not here today as a have an interview so I left went home called me. Sorry I was sick. Come back this is I think November maybe December. Two thousand one. He's like we're not hiring. You know in fact Ed people go but look at your book and I'll show you around his amazing experience they had full. CVS's full target walls. They were doing everything but advertising the display of the packaging. I've never done any packaging work and had a model shop. He was super nice to me. And he said you stay in touch same as Michael Beirut they say that but you never stand anti-itch months went by looking for work I went to the kind of recruiters dropped resumes tried to get jobs. Finally in December I got a job at Citibank actually at Salomon Smith Barney. I was like I'm finally using my econ degree instead. I was working in the basement. Taking Sandy Weill who was the CEO at the time of Citibank and cutting his press clippings and pacing them down. But I the throttle. My God. I've made it. I call him other and I said I made it. I have a job in New York City and I came home and it was like it had been an entire season of looking for work and finally had had a job. See Your job was to cut out articles about Sandy Weill and put them into a scrapbook. I first job in New York City. scrapbooking I was. I was working at a place. My other unheard of Citibank. I was working for the CEO working in New York City. Yeah it's amazing. When when I graduated I had no money and I was desperate to find a job so that I could stay in New York? I didn't WanNa go home to my mother in Queens. It was so hard at first to find a job that I actually started reconsidering my options and thought. Maybe I needed to go to school to learn to become a secretary which I started to do. I started to fill out an application to go to what was then called and I don't know if it still exists Katharine Gibbs Secretarial School. Because I was so desperate to get a job and I wasn't getting a job. My first job was designing the blowing cards. That you see in magazines but I was like I'm working at a magazine. I don't care what I'm doing working at a magazine. Blowing cards are really important. How did you end up getting being ahead? How long did you work at Citibank? Did you hang out with Sandy. WILL YOU INSANITY LATE MIGHTILY Monaco. No No I saw Sandy. Weill come out of his car and go into the building ones okay. I recognize them from other press so I knew he was my tenure. At Citibank was very short lived. I got back. Apparently people sometimes fire you on the first day back in January and I made the mistake and your first job like decorating my desk and so I had to take my firing box full of my plant my things and leave what you've got hired in December you got fired in January was not very good at cutting things out and placing them down but you were designer. How could you not be good at cutting and pasting? I think I had a bad attitude. What kind of bad attitude tardy probably snarky? I probably was not listening to whoever the senior paste up. Art Director was who knows it did not last but when you had to tell you fired from any time to come back North Carolina but I get fired first day back. I took the six train at rush hour. Because you know I'm going to do some retail therapy I'm GONNA go with my girlfriend to J. crew and spent some J. Crew Gift cards but have my firing box on the six train. Middle Rush Hour. WHO's in the train car? He recognizes me. Recognize him. He's like what are you doing. I'm like a change in my employment status. He's like obviously vice ice plant. What you've been up to? I'm like nothing he's like. I have a designer sick next week. Do you want to come in and I said absolutely and so I came in for three days. And he's like Thursday. We're done we don't need you. I waited two more weeks. He called me a couple of days and started showing up on Mondays. I showed up on the money that I didn't call you. I said but I'm here. What can I do and I was just an eager beaver and I just kept showing up and eventually he hired me? You just showed up. Yeah Yeah in the lobby. Hey Phil I'm here and he put you to work. Did he pay you. Wow so you worked and I believe he went into production wasn't I wasn't I wasn't in design. Department had to transition from the production department so I went from getting fired cutting paste up for Sandy Sandy Weill to thinking my way into a job as a junior production designer and then the production team got folded and feel pulled. Let me aside and said I got you an interview with one of the directors so I showed my work. They hired me as a designer. See you were at Revlon for three years. I was now going back to some of those Job Interviews at some of the agencies. I did that once too and when I got there I had to fill out a test I I had to do a test that they gave me and because all of my early education was at my school newspaper as well I realized took questions in that. I didn't know any of the answers to any of the questions. They were like. How many players in an inch and I was like what the Fuck Pica? I ran Out Crying 'cause I had no idea what they wanted me to be able to do and I was so ashamed of not knowing anything on the test test. We had no tests. I do remember the executive creative director of Revlon when I was a designer in the design Zayn Department required us all to use quirk express because at the time and is on it. Just come out. But they hadn't got it right and Cork Express handled type the best and that was it was those were those were the. Hey Days of Peter. Cognitive was concerned. I saw him like you. I'd learned on the school newspaper. I laid out covers and Cork Express and it was time to use that skill for making beautiful displays for inside of a Duane. reade laying type laying out the beautiful photographs of all the remodels. She comes over on a Friday afternoon and says why are using in design. I said because it's easier we're in LS ten. I have to go back to nine. Working Quirk Express. She said well. I told you we're GONNA quirks breasts. WanNa see fifteen asked Mario. I said Tar Saturday. She's like yeah. See at ten so that was my test is doing it all over again and over again and over again and being yelled at from an art directors then went to land or you went from Revlon to land or which was ironic given that land or was your second choice design firm when you initially moved to New York in your unsuccessful bid to work at a big design firm arm. How is your approach? Different trying to get the job the second time around. I made it much better portfolio and I made it for full of the work. I wanted to create not the work that I'd actually created so tell me about that. Why did you? What made you decide to do that? And what kind of work did you make. Well I left. The Revlon team moved out of the ELMES team a lot of freedom. It's a lot of really cool things. None of it ever went to market I one thing went to marquette once and I was on the cover of. Ww Women's wear daily. Not Me but the work that I had done and I but I have. I've made it I'm on. WW D and it was some intense. I color it was the shadow pencil and Mascara. After this is it and I just showed all the work that I got up to that I showed all the process all the thinking all the mood. Boards made beautiful little books and process books when I went for my review with the CD. Of have I said what can you do after you were medics. What's next you tell me about your career time about where I can go? He's once you've worked at Revlon. You can work anywhere. I was very excited. Because that's what I want like. Where like estee lauder? Oreo and I knew I had to quit. Wasn't for me. I wanted to be in a branding ending firm. I wanted to use a different things and learn from you. Know the best in the business like most things. In retrospect and make sense. You can't go from one to the other without connected acted work and so a lot of the work that I've done and cosmetics got me the job working on. PNG Beauty Atlanta New York. So I was hired by Chuck Ruth. It was very good creative director. Because he didn't want to work on the account anymore and so I was working on Clairol Nice and easy at the time. Brutal account that was rough legendarily. endearingly brutal It was cool though. I mean we wanted to do. We had a vision for Nice and easy being like fun and Alan White and they launched his new product called Nice and easy perfect ten and is going to be black and macro and beautiful and all the photographers got to work with her amazing. They fired me after nine months the client but luckily Landreau Chemi so when you get fired of an account you're essentially asked off the business and did how did you get. The News. Truck told me that I was not allowed to go back back because the client who asked never to see again. What did you do that? Prompted such a radical response to your work. I was probably pretty obstinate about what they should do. And the good news is they. Did it three years later. I was just too little too early to early on a little too inflexible about my opinions. Given how hard it was view to find employment in the business that you wanted to be in and then finally achieving that position at a firm that you really respected suspected. What gave you the confidence to be obstinate? It was the team the account team and the creative director working for brought me in and they said we need you to push-back we need you to raise the level of the quality of the work and I I took that to heart and I pushed the envelope a bit too hard. I hadn't learned any. Any skills and coping with clients is new. This was better than that. And I wouldn't bend of course. Plant will bend you and good news is I was able to stay and I moved onto to the account which is ever so slightly closer to cosmetics in terms of the preciousness of the kind of work that you're doing conjoint Moore who is much better. I learned a lot about structure and working with the guys in the model shop and industrial design. And so the idea that we could start to play with form and structure and glass and all the different details. It was also the heyday of high end spirits. And so you can do lots of really cool stuff and it was a higher static. It was less mass. You're able did you really good things at type and work with the best photographers industrial designers topographers illustrators. Eve admitted that before you got to lend or you really didn't understands branding over sure what revlon taught me was having taste it taught me kind of preciousness and preciseness and minimalism awesome and getting inspired with Landau taught me was branding and really brand equity so one of my very first e. CD's Richard Brandt he. He let me run pretty free and then would come at the Kriton. He would say you know you might want to do something closer. In what do you mean. He's like well. This Tequila brand been around for a hundred years. Here's how to round paper label. Everything you're doing looks like a perfume bottle you might want to try something closer. And that's a little bit closer. Their brand equities. He taught me that on smirnoff often on done. Julio that really kind of framed my reference on how to understand what brands are about how to respect their equities and not just throw them away for for the sake of style. which is what I was doing at the time? You went from working in production design which is very much implementing other designers work to in four years at land or becoming a creative director. How did you do that? Given how obstinate you were being asked off clients had do. How did you get ahead? I was always looking for opportunity and the best person was the accountant person. Because I was at the time I kind of knew my days were numbered and I wasn't really having a good time working on clairol. I wanted to push them further than they're willing to go. It was very hard. I talked to the Diario Account Director and I said do you need any help. What can I do and he knew? Of course there was. A project is about to fail. which is hilarious? It was smirnoff ice of all things and no one wanted to work incentivize and I was like I'll be happy to I will work on at night. I will do whatever I can to start working on. This account was the account I wanted to work on and and so I think it was seeing opportunities that others perhaps in WanNa take and trying to find a stepping stone to the next thing and then I had a you know a few pieces of good luck. What kept you trying for more? I have no idea in some ways designed I think and branding and creativity is a practice. It's a learned skill. And the more you practice in the heart of that you work the closest you'll get to where you want to go and I was never really happy with anything produced and so I needed to work and work and work and work and work mark. You have some particular advice for designers which comes from one of your favorite motorcycle racing formulas for winning and I'm wondering if you can share that because I was wondering as I was piecing together your history through my research if that particular formula was is what subconsciously unconsciously kept going. I don't know these have Evolved over time because I wasn't designing things. I really like motorcycles. I started like motorcycles. Even more I started to get into racing and you start a train and some of the same as designer creativity. You're trying to get better veteran better and better one of the things I like about it. Is You have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. The difference between first and last really just minor amount of seconds and you have to be comfortable last one percent attraction. What does that mean so a tire only has so much traction and everyone's expending all the tracks into goes fast as they can and it's the management of the edge of envelope? Either you crash and you do not finish first or you manage that edge of uncomfortableness and you finish first and and so a lot of what I learned. Not In design at all but in the racing did was to let go to be uncomfortable and not to hold on so tight. I think the first decade in my career I was holding on super tight because he wanted to achieve. You WANNA move forward. You want to create something that you think is great. And that whether uh-huh chievements you WanNa make and I think a lot of people. These days are focused on that. If they could only just be in the flow of what they're doing it will be easier to get their your experiences led you to believe the talent isn't everything. What else is required? I think it's the smallest thing. Talent is is maybe ten percent there are many many people that are more talented than me. Mostly it's about hard work. which is a kind of a silly thing to say because everyone has to work hard but if you work harder the talent is that you have? It'd be better off and also the last portion is just as luck. It's like being in the right place at the right time. Feinman that number six trend. I wouldn't admit Phil if it hadn't worked on Revlon I wouldn't've worked on clairol. Hadn't been working on Claro. I wouldn't the chance to work in. Asia hadn't been sitting at my desk randomly when my right. UCD sent me a note. Is there a crater. That wants to go to San Francisco and everyone moved to California and some ways. It's preparing yourself to all the hard work put being in the right place at the right time. Taking advantage of the opportunity. How do you define working hard? Because so many people think they work hard and if you find that working hard is one of the key criteria to success for anybody. That's listening to our interview. What can you tell someone about what it really means to work hard? The more. I've worked the more confident of become in my career decisions. I think in the very beginning it was exhausted all options. It was trying everything. It was working as hard as you could. It was seeking the answer that you couldn't find through intuition and working and working and working and doing it again and again and again and try to figure out your crafts and figure out the answer. The more that that you do that the more confident comfortably be become in your ability to find the answer but then you have to change it because then you're too comfortable and doing the same thing and so finding something that's different you can try to seek the answer again. I don't know I think it would be always looking always working harder. You're to find the answer. It's almost like a practice. It's repetition repetition repetition the more that you stretch the end of the edge of the comfort zone. You have to go again and again you said that you credit lander as your crash course in learning the rules. When did you decide? It was okay to start breaking them. I think that's a constant battle. I think we're always managing the rules. Because a lot of clients that we work for are are huge and the past decade has been a lot of publicized brand failures. And so how do you make sure that you're you're able to push the edge of the envelope but not lose people along the way I think. Sometimes we're able to do what's right by clients do as right by brands. Because perhaps we're we're on just a a continuum of hundreds of years of brand and you want to leave it better than you found it but also it's nice to do things that are a little more avant garde that pushed the edge of the envelope a bit so if if you've set up the rules if you've done the right thing by brand you've renovated then you have expected you left. Land or in two thousand and twelve and joined Jones. Owns knows Richie also known as J K are in twenty thirteen. What made you decide to do that? Well I was creative director California Ed San Francisco Landlords home. That was another great experience between working in New York as a design director and working at the home of land or in San Francisco which is like working to separate firms. It wasn't like the same company. It was a different experience different types of work a much bigger team and when I first got there I was terrified. I was the youngest creative director. I had more clients that I've ever had more people than it ever had. I arrived there another terrible time in two thousand eight and when I think the first piece of work I presented was the Daily Mirror's closed so it was a as a rough start to corporate branding but after four years and land or San Francisco. I didn't WANNA worked for a giant conglomerate. I didn't WanNa work for Agency owned by an agency owned by holding group. Because I didn't think it could create freedom and creativity. I couldn't support the team team I wanted. I couldn't bring in the creativity I wanted to bring. And I respect that people that have started their own agencies that had hung their shingle out. That had gone off to create something new and also. I thought I'd learned enough and so resigned to see all the time and moved to Oakland because cheaper there and took an intern learn and did my own work for about eighteen months. And then you realize you need people around you that are not just interns and it's also probably not a great business strategy to just I do. Pro Bono work and someone else. I was cleansing as cleansing myself from seven years of big branding and WanNa do you know. Cool things for nonprofit school thanks for cultural institutions. Interesting design only. Follow your passion projects but then it was time to do something. Actually one of my design directors that I work twice came and visited me in Oakland. He's like do you really think you're you're living your best life. I'm again I'm making more money and more awards. I'm racing motorcycles. All the time. And he's like no you're not you're sitting your underpants sign and posters and no one ever sees or cares about. Shouldn't you be at an agency doing real things leading people creating brands that people see if you're right and so I've been swearing off. All these recruiters are trying to do this. And that and the other and one recruiter kept calling me for like a long time and that if you just got the founder L. Elam and so scripted from his house He was in the south of France and I told him I like their work from the late. Ninety S Cool I. I saw some of that stuff when I was in England. I'm not looking for a job but it was nice to have a conversation and I don't think anyone had ever talked to him like that because I really didn't want the job which is weird because to date. I'd always want to delve a jobs and with this I said no and he said just go meet the MD.. MM D of New York and if you meet her we'll leave you alone and so I met her. I said hey this could be something special now. Her was the the only person in the New York firm correct at the time. I think there were a few more but yes our hyman was the MD of New York and we were well they at the time or in a tiny offs on Wooster Street and I was one of many creative directors to be interviewed. And she said you know Tick Tock directors to see and I said what do you WanNa see my book. And she's like I've seen it and she said what he wanted to talk about and she's ambition and so we talked about what we wanted to create and ended up drinking budweiser about three hours and Budweiser was the first real. Oh brief that was coming. May Long Story Short. I woke up with a hangover and a job. So how big was the New York office when you started three or four people. Oh maybe eight ten twelve but you know and ensuing months. We went smaller and and brought friends from California. It's been seven years the big as it now in New York it's over one hundred London's grown two hundred and fifty. We've opened offices. In Singapore and Shanghai three hundred worldwide. Say Doing Pretty Well Tajiks. It's pretty good. How did you go that building the business? It started with an desire to build something. The reason why lenders wanted to help create a firm I wanted to create my own firm. This is an opportunity to do it with a company that had been around at that time for twenty four years and had a great reputation. Some people have asked me. How did we do so well in New New York and I'd put it down to three things we had real opportunity I briefly had was budweiser? The second briefly had was wheaties. I had the best talent I've ever worked with. So I was able to recruit people from California which I talked to them before I even accepted the job because I knew I would need. Great thinkers great designers to do it. We wanted to do and the third thing is we have freedom and so I didn't have at a company that was held by Holding Group was real freedom to make choices and to kind kind of hire and fire to go after business wanted to go after to do. We wanted to do and so the ability to combine those three things I think is what really started us off and has proven proven to be successful. You work with both big brands and new brands brands. That are small. The different approaches for different sized brands. I think we've made a lot of in the past seven years we've treated small startup brands like giant multinational brands like Budweiser and that never works. I think when you work with entrepreneurs when you start brands especially the founders. They WANNA move fast fast fast so figure out other ways to work doing startups completely different than we do. Big Brands for for sure. But I think both of them play by the same rules. You gotTa have a great idea. You GotTa make sure you manage your brands equity even if you're creating it needed to think that it'll be around for longer than a hot second second. And then how do you make it relevant to the world and to stand you. Describe your work by explaining that you are part doctors and part boy scouts. Why boy scouts like many of the men in my family? It's required that you're an eagle scout. And so finally all makes sense. In retrospect my Eagle Scout Project project was typography for trail maps so I mapped the trails I did for the way finding for the trails. Did the sign edge. Did all the posters but anyway the point and being a boy scout is I was an eagle scout. And what they say when you're camping is always leave the camps better than founded doctors. I'm not a doctor but I've always liked the idea of the hippocratic oath. which is do no harm? So imagine. If you're in the world of branding Lebron better than you found it and do no harm and so I think again a lot of cases that you've seen in the last twenty years in our field. People have not applied those rules and they really can damage brands so doctors boy-scouts you've said that your biggest obstacle in designing for brands or with brands was. How do you change everything and change nothing? Can you elaborate over. Oh for sure like it was much harder than we anticipated to do. The Budweiser work. which seem so easy? Well no it doesn't. Why would you say that? It's obvious the solution is a beautiful label. The label has been in the Cultural Zeitgeist. One hundred fifty years. It used to be done by hand. The advertising campaign talks about being brewed. The hard way way he talks about thirty days how long it takes to brew it talks about how the most expensive and the biggest but the design is terrible. The execution is it's not crafted. It's not done by people who care about the typography people that care about the brand people that agonize over the details and so we should design the hard way. So if you're GONNA abruzzi hardware design it. The hard way the trick is how do you make it so that the people that have loved it for years still see their brand but then how do you change everything in a way that it feels relevant today today and then if it's even better if you can change all the words to something else so that you don't even read it anymore. How did you do it? We pitched that to them for three years. And we had some brave clients and they finally said yes and so we we did all the budweiser work. Fix the Beautiful in crafting all the details making a beautiful look and feel and then for summer one year we changed all the words and there's like fourteen pieces of bespoke type. It's all beautifully crafted and done. We change it all to America because there's nothing more American Budweiser had you persuade clients to do things. They may be afraid of are resistant to but you know that it's the right thing thing for them to do like why. Keep pushing for three years. They used to give us brief. That said please stop using work from previous presentations and there was a section dedicated in the back called Tosh land that would just put in the same work and we would answer their brief. Give them what they said they needed. Show them all the requests and and finally get to. But if you really want to do what you WANNA do. Here's the answer and I just did it in a much better way many many years later so as to get right to the edge of being fired or or fired a couple of times and rehired but in the end. Persistence keep ongoing. I just believed it was right. Hell hard is it to redesign a rick recognizable brand in this day and age with so much online criticism. That seems to happen. The moment you launch a redesign I I mean this is started in fifteen years ago. Oh Yeah I remember very distinctly and it's it's instant I mean. What are the gap logo lasted for? What three today's a weekend Tropicana lasted for what six weeks and there has been a time in the last decade where everyone is afraid that anything they do? The changes the brand at all will damage equity consumers will leave them the lose business. So how in the world can you make any progress brand. Anything that's avant-garde everything that's new and different print when the clients are afraid. That's the that's the hardest trick and we're not always successful. Sometimes we work forever and the client still refused to make changes we have built that respect respect incrementally I think and we've also done new ways to test things out so you do things in small increments you test and learn you put things democracy they do but really it comes down to gaining trusted your clients and moving in that direction even though it becomes scary the best clients are the ones that green light things without things like Peres testing without things that makes them feel more comfortable because they feel it and they believe in it on just launch it and it is scary at first because sometimes they the negative reaction is palpable. Or you might have seen we help Dunkin donuts drop the donuts after many years the client it was their idea. They wanted to do it and they've been afraid probably for at least a decade and and they launched a test store just to test it out in Boston and I'm not sure how familiar with Boston. Boston is not known to hide his criticism for the things that they love and they love abducted donuts yeah. I don't even know that there is a starbucks and turn left at the at the dunkin' turn right at the Dunkin' and you'll get there it's incredible the feedback was so pour it was hated. The launch of the store was hated. The dropping of the donuts was hated. Everyone hated it and the good news is we had a client in that case. That knew it was right. It was going to power through the criticism so a lot of times. Use the wait it out and also our job is to change the conversation all the press that was leaked Don. It was negative. Drop the taking wear my doughnuts and what we did was just changing at lunch to go on a first name basis which is positive but how how are you able to persuade customers. It's one thing to have a fearless client. That's willing to take a chance. Somebody that's brave. That knows that big changes necessary. How do you get the consumer to feel okay about it? TURNS OUT TAKE Dunkin. For example the consumers I already called a Dunkin. They were already there with us. Often consumers are much further ahead than the people in the business anyway and they're less afraid and they want to adopt. Thanks a lot of the criticism criticism that comes I think and brain refreshes brand changes is from a inside baseball group of people that are criticizing each other most times consumers. There's as long as you leave something and bring something new and don't take away something they recognize but provide something more exciting. They'll go with you and if you can bring the people that love the brand the people that love Budweiser people that love Dunkin and then bring new people to the world. That's great that's the Best Tasha. Have Two last questions for you. I I understand that you are listed on the patents for two hair treatment products. You worried about losing your hair you know this is. This is amazing. Things I have my grandfather has many patents. He has since passed away but he was in weights and measures and worked worked for Toledo scale and he has a book of like eight hundred patents for like weighing things small and large and I was so proud. When he's still alive I was like I have two patents for procter and gamble? We'll company One of them is. They're both hilarious ways to apply diet to your hair. One is root touch up and one is perfect ten and so I sold my patent to PG for dollar and what did your grandfather think of that He said to is good. Mastered Okay and my last question. I understand that you love motorcycles. And you've described the Harley Davidson soft tail as the archetypical motorcycle recycle. But I've discovered motorcycle race results. Wherein you placed on a Kawasaki? Yeah so what do you ride today in. Are you still racing. I wish I was still racing though. I haven't haven't raced in probably five years when the race. I raced a Kawasaki and I raised Suzuki Harley. Davidson is of course. One one of the icons of motorcycle brands not the best to race. How come there's not race bikes? There was he said that like I should now. I've been on a motorcycle once in my entire life and screamed the entire time there. Cruiser bike instead of sort of race bike. So you know you're cruising around you know like like easy rider versus the race bikes where you're full leathers and putting your knee on the ground. which is a bit crazy? There are few bucket list things to do. And if I could rebrand Do coty because I have cutting I love it. They've been rebranded yalies identity. I think from the nineties. The type is still there but his mark is gone. They replace it with the guitar picked Puffy and has kind of a three D. vibe to it which is not awesome by could work into Coty. That'd be great great also following the great work that nearly did a loving hands on American Airlines. I have to do that to Tosh. Thank you so much for making the places that we shop and dined so much more attractive to thank you for joining me today. Tosh how how is the global chief creative officer at Jones Mills Richie. He's also an instructor in the master's branding program here at the School of Visual Arts in New York Pity to see more of Tasha work. You can go to J K our global dot Com as we approach the fiftieth anniversary of design. Matters like to thank. Thank you for listening to all these years and remember we can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference or we can do both Debbie millman look forward to talking with you again gins especial thanks to our sponsor AC hotels by Marriott member of Mariot bond boy. If you love this podcast please consider contributing attributed to our brand new patriot. Community members get early access to the podcast transcripts of every interview invitations to live shows. QNA sessions with guests guests and a brand new annual magazine. You can learn more about this at Patriotair Dot com forward slash. Debbie moment if you subscribe to this. podcast cast through apple podcasts. Please read review or linked to a podcast on social media design matters is produced by Curtis Fox productions. The show is recorded at the school of Visual Arts Masters Branding Program in New York City. The first and longest running brandon program in the world the editor in chief of design matters media Izak repetitive and the art director. Is Emily Wild.

New York City New York revlon California North Carolina Sandy Sandy Weill Phil Li London San Francisco Debbie Millman director chief creative officer Jane Fonda Director Boston Tosh Citibank Revlon intern
Giants of History Special | Vladimir Putin:  The Ring

Giants of History

19:24 min | 2 years ago

Giants of History Special | Vladimir Putin: The Ring

"Vladimir Putin has a history of simply taking the things that he wants the following story while it may sound like it's pure fiction is one hundred percent true confirmed by both sides were involved and it took place on June twenty. Fifth, two thousand five. All right, everyone. I'm going to roll the dice here and take a guess at what you might be thinking at this moment. You're thinking, how the hell did Vladimir Putin make it into the lineup of individuals to be explored in this podcast after all, it's called giant's history, and this guy doesn't exactly fit the Bill. Well, I hear you and you wouldn't exactly be wrong and thinking that, and I almost didn't move forward with the Sepah sewed after considering that very notion. But then I thought for better or for worse, this is a guy who has intrigued a good portion of the world for the last few years. And if I enjoyed this story as much as I did, then there are certainly others who would enjoy it as well. And also selfishly an episode like this is a nice way to shake off the dust of antiquity after spending. Almost a year studying Cleopatra and Caesars World. Although I have to admit there are some similarities here between those rulers and the one where exploring here today. I remember thinking after Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine, in twenty fourteen that Putin was a head of state, unlike anything the world had seen for very long time. And for those of you who aren't familiar with the event were only slightly familiar with all that went down. Here's a quick break down, and this is over-simplified, of course, but it will get the point across as to me, this was just a staunch Shing to hear about in the news in the year twenty fourteen. So Ukraine is a sovereign country in eastern Europe plane his day, and it's not a small country physically, it's about the same size as France from square mileage perspective, and its population is almost the same as Spain's about forty five million people. And Ukraine is bordered by seven other countries all wrapping. Around it. For the most part, with the exception of a portion of its southern border, which is actually the Black Sea and jutting out from the mainland of Ukraine is a peninsula that's about the size of Massachusetts or New Jersey. And this peninsula is Crimea and just to point out the obvious again here it's a peninsula. So Crimea is physically connected to Ukraine. It's not connected to any other country. Now it needs to be noted that the Kerch strait which separates Crimea from Russia is only about two miles wide at its narrowest point. But Crimea is not connected to Russia it is or was I should say now physically connected and part of Ukraine, again, a sovereign country, but in February of two thousand fourteen oversimplifying things. Again here for the sake of time. Vladimir. Rootin- the sided that he wanted to annex Crimea into Russia. Now annex is a fancy way of saying that Putin simply wanted to invade Crimea and make it part of Russia or to get even more blunt Putin wanted to take Crimea from Ukraine. Now, this is not a perfect analogy by any means, and I'll probably take some heat for it, but it will serve its purposes and get the point across. This would be like Canada, all of a sudden invading Michigan and taking it from the United States, just absurd. Well, this is what Putin did. Now there was some historical reasoning behind Putin's decision to take Crimea mainly that Crimea was previously part of Russia for two hundred years before it was gifted in nineteen fifty four to the Soviet Republic of the Ukraine. There was also a referendum put forward by the people of Crimea as well, but that's all superfluous to the larger point Putin wanted Crimea. And so he just took it. And this sounds like something that you would read about taking place decades ago, but this for all intents and purposes just happened. Two thousand fourteen was yesterday essentially, and I recall watching it all unfold in Crimea and hearing the vehement protests by other world leaders about the annexation and the threats of sanctions and such being placed on Russia by the United States and the European Union. And yet. Despite all that, despite all the noise, the rest of the world was making about the situation despite the threats of economic sanctions, etc. Putin just kept moving forward. There wasn't any flinching or any blinking as they say Putin just did it. And parents. Here's where I curse as once again, there's just no other way to say it than with an expletive. So kindly have your kids cover their ears or say you're muffs or whatever, but to put it in straightforward terms, Vladimir Putin didn't give a flying. Fuck. He just invaded another sovereign country and took away part of it. And alternately, there was no consequence for it. Now, some my point of the retaliatory effects of the US and European sanctions on Russia's economy as a result of the annexation, but nothing seems to have changed as this show is written. And so it seems again that the statement I made at the beginning of this episode is true when Vladimir Putin wants something, he simply takes it and the following story. The story, I really want to tell here once again proved that point. And as I said, this may sound like it's made up, but it is one hundred percent true verified by the man himself. Who was the quote, unquote victim of the story. So let's begin with some background as you have to know who assertain person is to truly appreciate the story. Enter a man named Robert Kraft. Now, most of you listening have seen Robert Kraft at one point or another, even without knowing who he is, if you've watched any Super Bowl game in the last twenty years or so that the patriots were playing, you've seen him. Since the year two thousand the patriots have played in eight Super Bowls and they've won five of those games. So you've had ample opportunity to lay your eyes on Robert Kraft. And how would you know if you've seen Robert Kraft? Well, he was the one in the midst of all the confetti floating around holding up the Vince Lombardi trophy in a suit on the stage after each patriots victory. And why was he holding up the Lombardi trophy in a suit after each of their wins? Because Robert Kraft owns the patriots. Robert Kraft is always dressed to the nines in a dark suit wearing a dress shirt, a red tie matching handkerchief, full head of white hair and just to say it plainly, Robert Kraft just looks rich, and he is. He's worth almost seven billion dollars that's billion with a b, and there's reasons this guy is as wealthy as he is as his pedigree is extremely impressive. He went to Columbia for his undergraduate studies, Harvard for his MBA, and he worked his way up and through numerous business ventures that were successful and extremely profitable and ultimately establish the Kraft group LLC of which he is chairman and CEO, and the Kraft group reportedly does business in ninety countries around the world across variety of industries, including real estate development, financial services, manufacturing, and of course sports. And as you might guess, the crown jewel of his whole business enterprise is the patriots and given the New England. Patriots have won five Super Bowls under Robert Kraft ownership. You would think that Robert Kraft thus has five beautiful flashy, big expensive, Super Bowl rings to show for it, but you would be wrong. He only has four of his original Super Bowl rings more on that in a moment. But let's just sum up this quick highlight reel of Robert Kraft and his life by saying that Robert Kraft has money, lots of money and lots of connections, and a fair amount of political sway and power, given his wealth and resources. This is important to remember as we move forward. In June of two thousand five after winning his third Super Bowl as the patriots owner. Kraft went on a business trip to Russia, and I've heard him referred to this trip as a business mission as well. But Kraft was there with another billionaire business. Magnate a man named sandy Weill whose former CEO and chairman of CitiGroup. So needless to say, these two were fairly well connected, and at one point there, Russian connections tin ary lead them to a high profile gathering at the Constantine palace outside of Saint Petersburg. And who else was in this room at this high profile gathered? Well, none other than Russian President Vladimir Putin. So all these bigwigs were in this room together. And of course this being so soon after the patriots won Super Bowl, thirty nine against the eagles. Everyone was interested in taking a look at the object on Robert Kraft's weighted down hand. And what was the big draw that was on this hand crafts brand new sparkling encrusted with a hundred and twenty four diamonds. One of a kind as it had his name on it, Super Bowl ring. After showing the ring off too many of the onlookers crafts friend, sandy Weill made what proved to be a very unfortunate suggestion while encouraged craft to show the ring to Putin. Now Kraft was reluctant, but once he was in front of Putin and the attention inevitably shifted to the Super Bowl ring craft, took the ring off and gave it to Putin to check out. And Putin examined the ring up, close studying it, and then he put the ring on his own finger. After a few seconds Putin broke the silence by suddenly saying, quote, I can kill someone with this ring. Everyone who heard the line laughed about it, but win. The laughter died down craft says he put his hand out again to take the ring back from Putin. At which point Putin simply looked at him and then put the ring into his own pocket turned around and walked away. And crafts initial instinct was of course to protest. But just as soon as Putin turned his back and started walking away three KGB agents intervened. In crafts, own words, quote, I put my hand out and he put it in his pocket and three KGB guys got around him and walked out and quoted craft, just stood there dumbstruck and was powerless to do anything about it. So here's what happened in the aftermath of this event craft obviously couldn't and didn't do anything immediately following the event. But after he returned stateside, he made efforts to have the ring returned him as he said it had sentimental value. The problem was Russia wasn't responding to his requests and craft, not being want to give up that easily after all you don't come to be worth billions of dollars by being a passive observer craft continued to try and get the ring back via calls and emails, etc. Ultimately, though the United States government intervened somebody from the White House in George W Bush's administration called craft, and according to crafts recollection of the call, here's what the White House contact said to him quote, it would really emphasis on really be in the best interest of US Soviet relations. If you meant to give the ring as a present. Craft stated again that the ring had sentimental value to him and he didn't wanna let it go as he didn't want to one day see the ring on EBay. He also mentioned here that the ring had his name on it as we said. But after he put all this forward on the call with the White House contact according to craft, again, quote, there was a pause on the other end of the line and the voice repeated, it would really be in the best interest. If you meant to give the ring as a present end quote. And as these things go, it wasn't a few days later that craft issued a statement saying that he had given his Super Bowl, thirty nine championship ring to Ladimir Putin as a gift. Craft statement included the following quote at the end of a very productive three, our business meeting with President Putin. I showed the president, my most recent Super Bowl ring upon seeing the ring, President Putin, a great and knowledgeable sports fan was clearly taken with its uniqueness at that point. I decided to give him the ring as a symbol of the respect and admirations that I have for the Russian people and the leadership President Putin. And quote. In two thousand seventeen Robert. Kraft was interviewed by NFL films for their series. Fifty rings fifty days about all his Super Bowl rings and this story, and here's what he said, quote, I keep them in a drawer, right? Have my cufflinks. They're all in a drawer, except my third one. The original is in Russia with the president of the country. I happen to be there on a business mission with my friend sandy Weill. I showed sandy my ring and he said, why don't you show it to the president meaning Putin? I showed it to him and he put it on and he sort of enjoyed it. So we kept it on and quoted. And I have to say here that I don't do that quote, Justice, you have to see the interview with craft because his facial expression as he states, that last line is priceless. For Putin's part in this whole story. He had one of his spokesman the Mitri peskov put out the following response after crafts, real side of the story leaked out peskov stated quote, what Mr. craft is saying now is weird. I was standing twenty centimeters away from him and Mr Putin and saw and heard how Mr. craft gave this ring as a gift and quote. And of course, later Putin himself responded to craft side of the story stating very sarcastically. I have to add quote, if it's such a valuable thing for craft and his team, then I have a proposal, I'll ask our firms to put together a really good big thing. So everyone will see what an expensive thing it is with good medal and a stone. So it will be passed from generation to generation in the team whose interests are represented by Mr. Kraft Putin continued. Adding more commentary stating that his proposal would be quote, the smartest solution partners can ever achieve while tackling such a complicated international problem and quote. And if you've ever seen Putin interviewed, the sarcasm is ubiquitous. And when you couple that with his body language and his facial expressions, this statement is just classic. CNN reports that as of today, the nearly five carat diamond ring still sits in the library of the Kremlin in Russia where all official state gifts are kept.

President Putin Robert Kraft Crimea Ukraine Mr. craft Kraft patriots Crimea Russia sandy Weill United States president Russia Kraft group chairman and CEO Kraft group LLC Caesars World Russia
Wide Awake: A Day for Female Founders Panel - Even Sallie Krawcheck Gets Mansplained | 31

Superwomen with Rebecca Minkoff

50:45 min | 2 years ago

Wide Awake: A Day for Female Founders Panel - Even Sallie Krawcheck Gets Mansplained | 31

"I loved hearing Sally from Elvis. I think that she was passionate and inspiring and so incredibly honest. So that was my big takeaway was authenticity. Like I think that's. Extremely entertaining. Explain to lot of very big word that had not heard very quickly. Everyone. You're listening to women with Rebecca Minkoff, one of the last panels of the day during our wide awake a day for female founders conference was with Sally crosscheck, the founder of L best, and let me tell you, you wanna listen to this one all the way through she's strong, and powerful, and has advice let you know, I take to heart. I actually started in an Elvis account as soon as I got home that night because I was like you know what I'm gonna give this woman, my money because she's going to make it grow, and she's a smart lady. So hope you enjoy this Q and A with Sally Krawczyk. So we are rounding out the end of the day. And I have the pleasure of having miss Sally crosscheck up here. I'm not gonna do her bio because I wouldn't do it Justice. And I love when our speakers, and our panelists actually give their story, but most of, you would know her as the founder of Ella vest, before that she bought eighty five broads, which was which is now elevate. And before that had a twenty plus year as one of the most senior women on Wall Street and for me, as a former banker that's pretty bad ass. And we are so excited to have her here, and we're going to talk a lot about the not only the gender gap, but the investing gap given what Sally is doing Elvis's doing. But I'm going to turn it over to Sally just to give a bit about her background and story. So I have so much background things. I have happened to me. Me, and I have happened to that. It's hard to go through all them. I will tell you that this, this is where Ella vest was founded like literally in that corner. This was district co work back a few years ago, and our office was right here. And I would sit by that fire escape and talk on the cell phone. It was not nearly as beautiful as it is today, but it's interesting to sort of come back and look at the same windows, we had a drug dealer, right outside here. Notre and he we the elevator didn't work than either. So it's amazing how much and little has changed in, in four years. But my background. Grew up in Charleston, South Carolina Kogel in life date and marry the quarterback. But, you know, had an individual in my life, who at some point took me aside and said, you can go further go. And so went to the university of North Carolina from South Carolina thought I was going north. And at some point thought I'm going to go even more and my father forbid me from moving to New York because it was too dangerous. In the late eighties, he was probably correct. But of course, I moved to New York in that at that time, if you could get dot job on Wall Street, and he wanted to go. That's what you did. And in my whole career has just been about that. Just go just take the risk move on fall down. Get back up embarrass yourself, get over it, and how far can you take it? I don't know what Dr I have to do this, besides sort of. Basic insecurity, driven, by the fact I went to an all girls school and was teased and mocked. But that's been my career. So research analyst at Sanford Bernstein covering Wall Street, my claim to fame was that I was the one negative research analyst, when if some of you are you're old enough to remember everybody was positive you had to be positive. It was the thing to be positive. You're positive even to the point. It was a legal. You were so positive like literally, because you were lying to the clients and I was negative. And I was right. And I became well ranked my second claim to fame is when I was running the business of research and investment banking, which were at the time one business, I said, how in the world can people do this same business and their same head when if you're advising this client base, they wanna buy the stock lobe at this client base wants to sell their stock? Hi. Who's your client? Could you can't do a good job for both of them? I split the business. I. Got us out of investment banking. All the guys were like that is dumb. You're going out of business except they were dumb because these conflicts were revealed. They were all find hundreds of millions of dollars. And I ended up on the cover of fortune is the last honest analyst which was fun. My next claim to fame is that I was went from running my little business three hundred eighty four people on a Wednesday and CitiGroup stock at at the time, the largest Bank of the world was going down sort of a dollar a day because of their role in the research scandal. So then Wall Street titan, sandy, Weill, brought me into turnaround. Their research business and run the storied Smith. Marnie. So three hundred eighty six people on a Wednesday, thirty four thousand people on a thirsty. It was successful final second to last claim to fame. I got fired from that job, eight years later, because I am the only senior executive on Wall Street who in the crisis of seven, eight return, client funds, because we not because people invested in equities in the market went down because we had missile products as low risk that were high risk. We made a mistake, I went to the boss, can we partially reimburse the clients? We went back and forth at went to the board. I. One but pro tip take on your boss at the board. You will lose your job. And so the guy who I think I was saying the other night, when I was here, the guy who they went quietly, the month before I went they gave him forty four million dollars and anybody want to guess how much they gave me answer zero. But my conscience was clear fantastic. So that was my, my second claim to fame and then my third, my next claim to fame is I hope I got fired again. So on the only woman that I know of has been fired twice on the front page of the Wall Street Journal that was when I was running Merrill, I was brought into turn it around when Bank of America bought it in the financial crisis. The attrition rate was fifty four percent. They asked me to come and turn it around. Got it down to six percent. You may be like hey Sally, why don't you get it down lower? The answer is because they count death in the attrition rate Merrill, Lynch, financial advisers are old. I can do. Do lots of things, but I cannot keep a man alive. And I was I was reorganized out despite having great business results because the CEO wanted to have his team around him. So that was almost worse than the first time. And then my final claim to fame is after that I said, wait a second. Hold on a minute. This industry, I used to work in where financial advisers. Eighty six percent of financial advisers are white guys ninety percent traders are men ninety five percent of hedge fund managers admitted ninety percent of mutual fund managers men. Is it any surprise that men invest more than women do is it any surprise of the industry, sort of blames women fort, you're so risk averse, you need more financial education, all of which is B? S B S. We can talk about it. And I said, you know what I this is costing the women in this room hundreds of thousands for some of you millions over the course of your life because you're keeping your money in cash. Because the industry was not made for you was made by men for men, and I'm going to take the experience. I haven't actually build an investing platform that is, by women for women, not in the oh, we're women and let's not buy shoes. Even though these are amazing. Let's invest in the market. But instead really get to the core of y to women. One invest is a towel perform the market answers. No is a to figure out what their financial goals are figure out if they can achieve him and invested in order to do, so the answer's yes, who I did that as fast as draw fast. That's a little about me. Okay. So I, I am we had salary here last week, just full disclosure, and she spoke to a smaller group. But we didn't get into when, when you're at city, and then at Bank of America, then I want it will talk a lot about Elvis, but you're in the room getting fired. Who's in the room with you? And what's your response? Well, they're two different stories when I got fired at city. I was in the room by myself. I was preparing for a meeting, and if for those of you who worked on Wall Street CNBC is on all day long. And so it was on behind me, and I sort of glanced over, and I saw a picture of a woman and something about getting fired. And I'm like, who tough day for her? My that's me always sh. And then later, the phone call came, so they had leaked this to the press before it got to me. The second time was probably worse. The second time it was. It was the day after Labor Day. And my assistant came by the day after Labor Day and said the CEO is in town, and he wants you to swing by three thirty and I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah, I said, I think I'm going to get fired and she's like the results are rate. You're not bad to get fired and Mike. Yeah, you're right. But, you know, Brian never sort of swings by to shoot the shit with me. I wonder something big is going going down. So I went over at three thirty to his office, and, you know, I knew it because I hurt my foot, so I was in a cast and I- thumped by the most gregarious, nicest backslapping ist guy you've ever met. And I said, hey David, and he's like, Hello. And I'm like, oh, shoot went into Brian's office, and he said, we're we Oregon, we're going to this. We're going to this structure, one of the structure, and so you're, you're being let go, and I think I sort of laughed. You know, the time the business was outperforming the competitors. It was beating plan. It was growing, right? It was it was on fire is mentioned. I've been brought in for task and in two years. We turn the business around completely, and so I just sort of laughed and I'm like, what do you mean may, yes? You and then I got trailed into the next office. And as we talked about the shocker of my life is that the woman who when I had joined who was decade, plus older than me, who had committed to me that she would be my mentor sponsor. Whatever word we wanna use. I'm here for you. This place is tricky. I will help you navigate it. You know, I will give you advice and through the two years, sometimes the advice didn't feel exactly right. But thank goodness, she's there, because look at me that advice didn't feel right? And I'd say or I just feel like. I just feel like I'm not connecting with Brian. I would try should I give them summary should? I'm meet with, like I'm not feeling you know, and she was like, oh, no. You are great together, you are the least of his worries. He's very busy just keep doing weight. I'm like, okay if we're good. We're good. And she's sitting across the frigging table, right with the press release with. You know, sign this release, and that's what hurt is this mother mom issues and my mom's been sick, and, and I hadn't had that relationship before. And so that just cut me I go back to my office, I try desperately to call my father. Don't get him because he's working out. And he heathen ends up seeing it on CNBC. And so that just it would just was painful. It just felt fast and a little gratuitous to be perfectly Frank. I went home and drank a lot and spent the next day in a pool of self pity. And I just really felt bad for myself and the day after that, I picked myself up, I called up every member of the board. And for those who would call me back. I said, number one, I want to thank you for the opportunity to run Merrill, Lynch, it was the opportunity of a lifetime. And number two, what could I have done better? And it was really interesting because what God back was from some of them. Nothing luck to you whatever. But from the few who would talk, oh, Sally. We knew your results were top of every business. But the truth is you had nobody in there, fighting for you and. When we said, why don't we fire somebody who's missing plan and trinkets the answer was an ano the business. She's running. That's the easy business. And imagine if we put this white guy in it, how would you better do his, his colleague, has his friend? And so the lesson is if you don't know, who's in that room, fighting for you. The answer's probably nobody and that there are times in your career in which even grade business. Results are not enough to overcome. Not having somebody, fighting for you in that room PS, by the way, years past and about three months ago, four months ago. This woman who I thought was my gal my, my mentor my sponsor, my mom my work mom. She kept over the years. She's tried to reach me, and wanted to talk and truthfully over the years. I've done delete delete because it would eat. Ellwood show up in it would so emotionally rattle me. And I'm like just because she's ready to talk doesn't mean I need to do that. I don't know her this. Well, then all of a sudden, I ran into her a couple times, I was out of this, and this, and then Mike now it's getting weird like she's begging. And so we got on the phone, and I'm thinking she's gonna policies, you know, she's going to be like the years of past, I'm woke I should should've been, but. Hell no her. She said, you know, I know you're, I've written about it. She says, I can tell I hurt you. I'm like, yeah. And she said, I just want you to know the reason, like okay, and she said, we weren't close. Okay. Bye. And that was it. No apology. No, nothing. Just I was not. She didn't have to feel bad about it because we weren't close. Mic drop. Right. I mean, how do you follow that? We've spent the whole day with different panelists and speakers, and workshops really digging into pragmatic tips around how to run a business, and we're gonna get to Elvis. But I think one of the things and I heard in the last one of the last sessions, I was with Cheryl Kaplan, who's the co founder of 'em Jimmy, and she was talking about, advisers, having advisers around you. And when you were here last week, you talked a lot, you use this story as an example, around the fact that you need mentors. But more importantly, sponsors, and I think it's different in the corporate world than it is in the entrepreneurial world. So can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. So when we're talking last week and I sorta hit on this a little bit in the corporate world. Carla Harris, always says, if you know every important decision about your career is made when you're not in the room, right? And so just you gotta know who's in the room, and who's fighting for you. And if you don't know the answer the. Answers nobody and it's also important to remember that mentors are nice, but they are not sufficient, and we women are way over mentored. So we have something like four times as many mentors as men. Do that's lovely to have people answer questions of problem is, we have half as many sponsors who are the people who fight for us. And look the truth is you, you wanna have a diverse group of these individuals. But if we're going to be perfectly Frank, and nobody tweet exactly this right now, if we're going to be perfectly Frank. It's a white guy and it's probably, honestly, an older white, man. In fact, and I think we might have talked about this last week when I have thought about who of my college and business school friends who've been mega successful, right? There are certain things that they're smart, and they work hard and they're gutsy, and they don't give up their gritty and all that stuff. But there's still some of them where you're like I just. Wouldn't have guessed it would have been you. I mean I wouldn't be wouldn't have been you. But, you know, when we were in the sorority house at two thirty in the morning, I went like it's her. This is the one. I mean this friend who is long ago, retired as a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley and like has his home, where you're like holy crud. Right. And, and when I talked to her, we'll talk to me, she had, and I had and all these friends of mine had an older white male sponsor and I'm like a couple of decades, older, and an older guy who sort of took an interest in them almost a professional fatherly interest and cleared the way. And by that, by having that individual with that gravitas. They were and people didn't want to cross individual. They were able to wipe out a number of the gender issues that come into play. Now, maybe you maybe your fortune to have one of those, maybe you aren't I just put it in the back of your mind because I don't know that it's, it's a necessary or sufficient condition. I just noticed that there seems to be a either correlation or a coincidence, so finding sort of a diverse group of advisers, but, you know, looking to find those who are generation ahead who've built, the gravitas, who take an interest who are not threatened by you in my own career, again coincidence or not the bosses who were quite a bit older than me. Loose Sanders at Bernstein. Sandy Weill at city, Ken Lewis at Bank of America. They were like go Sally, the ones who are closer to my age. They fired me. And by the way, I'm the say, I did it wasn't a different person at any point in time in my business results weren't different. But there was definitely a different dynamic, you and I have some mean as a former banker I get that. So let's delve into. To elevate. You saw a huge gap in the market. Right. When we can quote as many statistics and I know you love stats. So I'll let you do that versus reading off of what you've said. Well, I, I thought it was a dumb idea. So after I went on my second unexpected career break a lot of well-meaning people said to me, you know, you should start up wealth management business for women are investing business for women. I was like, oh, my like that is such a terrible idea. It is so condescending. It is so junior varsity. Hello, I was in the varsity. It's going to be remedial financial education. Like no. And of course, then everything women are too risk averse to invest in their husbands doable. I every sixty five year old man's thought in my head and because what did I think that because I grew up in our society, and because I grew up in. Industry that viewed women is a niche market. And so it really wasn't until I've been told that a lot. No, no, no, no, no. And then was putting on mascara one day and just went on my gosh. Ever have those moments where he's like. Wow. Big thought and the big thought was the retirement savings crisis in the United States of America's agenda issue. We women live six eight years longer than men. Do we were tired with two-thirds of money of men, eighty percent of his die single? And so if there's not enough money, it's us, who's left eating the cat food. Okay. And the guys are six feet under. Slipped, right. On in there. Didn't it took him in it? But then you're like she just made a cat food. Joe? Can't be a group of women without talking about cats. So anyway. And then I began to sort of click over how do we fix this? And of course, there tax increases and entitlement cuts, which nobody is spending anytime on. So what's the answer? Get more money to women. Okay, if we close the gender pay gap, we close a retirement savings gap by third. Lots of people are working on it out. Very successfully mind you because it's barely closing. But then I began to think about wh- wait. That's not the only gap, what are the other gaps in son of a gun is I dug in as a research analyst, women. Don't invest as much as men do women keep seventy one cents out of every dollar in cash, as we talked about it costs hundreds of thousands, it cost millions over the course of life. You don't like big numbers. I'll give you a small number. If you wait ten years to begin to invest, you're making eighty five K a year. You're putting the twenty percent of your take home pay into the Bank. It costs you one hundred dollars a day, historically one hundred dollars a day. Right. And so I love to say that purse right there. You walk out of here. Hundred dollars balls. Out tomorrow. You take it again. One hundred hundred dollars Paul's out the third day. What Friday now like how long does it take you to fix your bag no time? And yet, we let this money go, right? Past us, why we been socialized to believe. It is our fault. Okay. It starts in childhood when we are taught that money is for boys, when we are told when our parents talked to us about money, they talked to us about saving. They talked to our brothers about investing growing wealth, making more money when we go to school, we get worse grades in math for the same answers as boys when we grow up, and we read women's fashion magazines, they talked to us about not buying the law Tei like that is going to help. You've got to be effing kidding may not by the F by the fucking law. Okay. What they're not talking to us about as diversified investment portfolios. They talk about our money type in the one that drives me nuts. I think we talked about this the other night is that the sort of seminal. Women's TV show that we all grew up on sex and the city every woman, Carrie Bradshaw. Who I mean I'm Miranda. But everybody else thinks they're a Carey was so smart in every way except that she bought so many shoes, she couldn't buyer apartment, and we all identified with this. So we are taught that we are flipper gidgets, when it comes to money, we are told we are risk averse. We are told we need more financial education, except so do the men. The men don't have any more financial education than we do. What really is the issues? We're given these messages at this is not for us in the industry. We look at it, and it's our dad everywhere when we try to learn we go to watch CNBC, it's ESPN for money and the industry symbol is a frigging bull. What's a bull. It's a p. Phallic symbol. Right. It's I mean like you couldn't scream. He man woman haters club anymore. If you tried, and, in fact, you know, is like to say if, if we went back one hundred years, and the guys said, let's keep the women from having the power. What would they do? They do this. They keep us from having the money they would populate Wall Street with all men and so make it a manly sport to invest. They would populate venture capital with all men and give money to other men. I don't think they did this best of my knowledge and so, anyway, I set out and said, hold on a second. This isn't our fault. So let me build something. Let me raise some money in, let me build something from the ground up for women and not in. It's not what you think I'm gonna keep going per minute. Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. Tell me more Sally. Okay, I will. So look, I couldn't even uniting to believe where I started where I started which was well. L. Well, yeah, but then let's talk about fundraising after as me a fundraising question after. Okay. Yeah. So I'll, I'll talk about that. And then you'll like, hey, talk about fundraising's alley. Okay. So the truth is, when I started I was like, oh, I know exactly what this is because I worked on Wall Street, and I'm a woman, it's the where we need to sort through our motions around money. And so I actually spent real money like, how do we get through our blockages and the feedback that came from the we've now done thousands of hours of research? But then the tens of hours of research was, you're kidding me. Right. Like I don't want to get through my emotions with you. And so what we built instead was we found your very practical, you know, first of all. No, I'm a woman why does that matter? Because when I'm doing, you're investing plan, particularly retirement you live longer and your salary. I'm sorry to tell you peaks, a decade earlier than a man man's. If you this is not taken into account, that's fine for men, because they they're on track to die on average, which means they die with money. It's bad for women because it means we run out. So we were the first that was gender aware. And then beyond that we said this out perform the market thing doesn't matter just means you're taking on more risk to try to get there. You want to buy a house in five years, you want to have a baby in three years, you want to start your business in seven years, you want to retire at sixty we'll buy, we'll put together a highly sophisticated investing algorithm, that will enable you. To figure out if you can do that. Will you actually can't buy a house, you need a condo, you need to have a baby later? So you can buy the house, sooner whatever it is, and make these trade offs. And then put together the most highly customized investment portfolio as only technology can do that. Is not there to have you win? But is there to help you achieve your goals in the vast majority of markets, the what was really amazing? When we started on, like, I don't I don't know. We're trying to change behavior. We're trying to say take your cash and invest it. Well, what's actually happened is if you look at the other digital first advisors betterment wealth front acorns etcetera. We been the fastest from standing star to now more than a quarter of billion of assets under management. And so we've hit this product market fit in a really fun and interesting way. And we also today of added financial advisers executive coaches certified financial planners because we've gotten the demand for it. So there's the filling a gap obviously, you guys are leading the way. There's really no one that's even close. And you talk a lot about the fundraising aspect, and I will just tell a little bit of a story, so we were here again last week and Sally's talking about fundraising, a lot of female founders were in the audience, and she's like, has anyone ever been ghosted at when they've pitched or set out there pitch deck? And, and I think people were sort of, like, well, Sally would never be ghosted. So can you talk a little bit about that? The whole journey around the fundraising and even you are ghosted. I have to tell you, I am so let me be honest with y'all their first couple of rounds were easy. You know, our seed round was super simple. I called not VC's but individual business people, I knew some in the industry and said, look, this is the problem. I'm trying to solve and they said, yeah, we've known you for twenty years. We've known about this problem. Here's. We don't know if you can fix it. But here's here's a check the series was relatively easy. And then when you're starting to raise some big dollars, and I'm talking tens of millions, you know, things get a little, you know, you have to go to these institutions. It's hard to go to your friends at that point. And so you're on sandhill road. You know you're getting the meetings. You're pitching it cetera. And just the most extraordinary things happen. You know, one I was at a well-known sandhill road VC firm, and it was there, it was me and eighteen guys, which is totally, you know what I'm used to, and I'm presenting and the head guy begins to talk to me about cost -sition and bring it down. I'm like, that's awesome. Our cost of acquisition is like a quarter of the industries and going down fast. But bring it the second thing he does is he then begins to talk to me about how to build a social media following. Ng now our social media following his two and a half million. It's the largest in US financial services way, more than his, but you can always learn. The third thing is I'm talking about hiring financial advisers and this guy begins to tell me what they're like, and what the economics of the business are now in case you missed it in the intro. I've run more financial advisers than anybody on the planet like maybe the universe. But definitely the planet and this guy is man's planning to me. And I'm sitting there thinking. Does he not know who I am? Even though it's in the deck, I enter deuce myself, and like it's, you know. He's around. Or does he actually think he knows more than I do about financial advisers and to this day? I don't know the answer. So number one man's planning everywhere people like did you storm out of the room? And the answer is obviously not. I was like, thank you. In fact, when I ran Merrill Lynch, he's like shoe, right? So that's number one, you got to prepare yourself for man's planning. Number two, I've been shocked by the ghosting now I can get. I'm fortunate that I can get a meeting. What stuns me? And by the way, this is men and women. You know, you'll read about these women that are on the cover of Forbes for all rays, and you go and meet with them, and you bring all your stuff, and you have a great meeting, and they love it. Love it love it. Love it, love it, and you send more stuff and you have a follow up and the Dabbagh. And they don't reply to another. And the next thing you know, six months, have gone by, and you're like should I stalk them or not? It is. I've been talking to my friends out there. It is the damnedest thing I've ever seen. Because at least on the east coast, you get an answer, right? But somehow, there's so many of these folks who just in their job description, don't think the courtesy of a response is warranted. And when I was at I was actually out there, I was at a dinner party in Silicon Valley on Monday night, and I said, what Gibbs? And I think I think it's they never want to give up the optionality. And so if they haven't told, you know, when the deal comes together, maybe they can find out about and still say, yes, the third thing that has shocked me is not just talking to my partner at my co-founder about this today is how many of them how often you get asked. Who else is in the deal? Which really hard question to answer when nobody's into their in. Right. You know, I'm interested you need to find a lead at cetera. And I'm talking the very top tier. And there's this weird game you have to play about you're trying to get them all through the who sort of through the gate at once. And by the way, as soon as it's clear that it's going, then you're over subscribed. And so, you know, I've been through when raising real money like you're committing suicide. And then all of a sudden you're massively over subscribed, and they all try to get an it's the weirdest thing. And in the fourth thing, I'm gonna say and this can we untwisted? Okay. This was a long discussion at this dinner. The good news is, there are so many new female VC's at these brand name firms, and the bad news is not many of Guetta deal through their junior. Right. And what I've started to do, and I'm giving you all my secrets now is almost before I go into I'll have a meeting with them. I'll say you're going to protect me, right? Over there, filming. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Because I'm really trying to go deep here. And I end look for these young women who are doing this go go and be successful. But in the meantime, if you have the luxury of it, what I've done is before the meeting. How do you make your decisions? How do you make them is can one person champion a deal? Do you need to people to get through? Or do you need consensus? And I gotta tell you for my company, I don't. We've made it through a consensus BC yet and the stuff that we because as majority men and the stuff that we get back when they say, no is. What if a competitor gets in, and I'm like, all right? Our market is a seven trillion dollar a US assets under management market. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of multibillion dollar investing in fintech firms. Serving men. But you're not gonna invest in me because someone else might get in. That's question. Number one, right? And the others are equally. Like guys points of view where they think of women as a niche. And so as soon as they come back with you say, you couldn't get the deal through. And so, I think best is ideally, you find someone who really understands your business, who has a track record of backing women. That's the other thing to ask. Have you backed any women CEO's? That's a weird that feels like an awkward question has, but you can figure it out on crunch base. Right. And go through and who do you see and try to go with those ones that have a track record? You know, the thing we really need to fix is, we now have a lot of women investing in women seed and series, a its series B, you know, and forget series is terrible, but it's the big money that isn't yet breaking through. And so you're having a lot of women being successful and then jamming into walls at series. Big was that helpful? Okay. Okay. I wanted to have everyone. Have an opportunity for tonight, but I want to I want to ask one more question around when is the right time to invest, so we talked a little bit about emergency funding. Your credit card debt, your student debt and there are a lot of women here, new female founders. Yep. Yep. So let me on the okay. So anybody so active managers, active money managers, buy, this stock low sell at high trade in trade out run a mutual fund run a hedge fund masters of the universe multimillionaires. Right. These these folks what percent of these folks who figure out when to get and out of the market, consistently outperformed the market over five year basis? Anyone wanna guess answer point one percent point one percent. Okay. So for those of you who are thinking, gosh, what's how he talked about, seems really interesting. And I would like to invest. I feel like the market is a little high right now personally because it just went up. You have no idea. You do not know, right? Unless in your spare time you're better than point one percent of people who spend their whole life on this. You do not know indeed, the only active money manager, many of us in the room, have even heard of his Warren Buffett. And the reason you have heard of Warren Buffett is because there's exactly one Warren Buffett, if there were a bunch of Warren, Buffett's, you would know, six, or seven of them, or whatever or thousands of them, but you only know of one because there's only one and even he does not try to figure out the right time to invest, so the correct answer to your question is yesterday. Right. The right time to invest. His yesterday. The other right time to invest is some percent. Out of every paycheck. If you're taking a paycheck, right know some percent of your savings move into investing the rule of thumb. Is that for your take home pay again? Assuming you have a regular salary, if you donate for taking in chunks, fifty percent should go to needs in New York. That may be higher, right. Rents ridiculous. Thirty percent goes to fun because we are not Puritans and we have to have a good time. We only live one time for all. I know. So we need to spend thirty percent on fun. And in twenty percent goes to future, you and that's what you put in your 4._0._1._K, if you have one or your IRA or investing a little bit can't go. I can't afford to do that. Then do me a favor invest one percent right? Put it on direct deposit have taken right out. Whatever you do and then move it up to two percent, move it up to three percent and just, forget it. And you know what? I did. When the market was freaking out in November, December, I stopped just look just don't look just don't look. There's nothing good about looking right? And when you look and. And you know what? The research says the men look, and then they do something, and they do the wrong thing, almost every time women outperform, men in investing by one percentage point a year, whether they're professional investors or individual investors, because we just leave it right again, unless you are better than point, one percent of money managers in which case don't start whatever business. You're starting go. Become a multi-billionaire investing. Okay questions. I don't have a question, but I just want to say, I have an elevated account because my husband is constantly looking at our count, wherever it is. And I and he was at he worked at e-trade to any trade. And then he moves money in and out in a hated it makes me crazy. Access to it. That's great girl. Good. That's my girl. That's our statement. We're not living on cat food, but everybody here should absolutely have your own investing account. I'm I'm all in favor of the joint checking account, and, you know, Gary makes ex and I make Y, and we split the household expenses in a certain way. But the truth is guys ninety percent of us manager our money on our own at some point and lives, even if we don't want to, and I'll be Frank, I am now at the stage in which I have friends whose husbands have passed away. They didn't mean to and they didn't want to write. But this guy had a brain tumor this guy had cancer. This guy was in a car wreck because he was drunk, this guy, flew, a plane like stuff, happens and fifty percent of marriages, end in divorce, and I'm absolutely certain everyone's marriage was better than my first marriage was. But the shock of my life was when I found out that my first husband was having an affair with my friend. I mean I wouldn't have imagined it like it was so far out of the realm of what I thought. Was possible that after I found long hair on the bed that was not mine. I'm like, oh, it's the cat sitter. And then it was so outside, like I kept thinking to myself, I need to ask, John, if he's cheating on me, and I kept forgetting. And then when I did, like I Mike. Hey, John, are you cheating on me? He's like, no, I'm like, are you sure you're nice like no. And then I turned away to Mike. Wait. Why isn't he more angry upset that I keep asking? And so, then I was like, John, are you cheating on me said you're going to be mad and I was really mad? I just is one emit that I lost my temper. Have a separate account. You have to have is ever gone. By the way, in case you, you're wondering, I one. My happiest day one of my happiest days in my life, truth be told is when I was brought in to run Smith Barney. So I was at this level, and he happened to be at CitiGroup, at that level is oh, revenge. So best served cold. I'm like, John. I have to call you and let you know there's going to be some news tomorrow and just watch out for it. You probably can't miss it. And you wife, she's not going to miss it either. Okay. Another question mitt. Yeah. Yes. This is my money in sixty seconds that I do on linked in one takes out. This information of well this. Question to you. A lot of us are entrepreneurs will put strap anyway, taking four one K credit card debt. And I give their children's I get very nervous about, oh my God. One of win win. And how and what's it buys? Do you work? Yeah. I feel for you. This taking out credit card debt to run the business selling your home to run a business. Try to get to some kind of proof of concept as fast as you can, and raise the amount of outside funding, you need so that you can breathe, and then get to revenues as quickly as possible. Right. The cheapest form of capital is revenue and the faster you can begin to, you know, every dollar of revenue or every dollar of the sort of margin is a dollar. You don't have to raise from the outside in a certainly a doll. You don't to take on credit cards, so. Good luck. No. You're breaking point you know how much money is it that you get to you've spent acts? And that's when you have to say, if it's not going, it's not going and try to stay true to that. But, you know, sometimes you love what you do in your passionate about it, and it's worth the stress. But it stressful. I know I know one more question. This percentage of times. So. On twenty him. And what's the gross it up? Yeah. So I go the other way. Right. So as I think, so first of all, we all know the guys make more cash than we do, when they're startup CEO's, and they take more equity. Okay. And I what, what are the numbers do you, do you have them about of the amount of equity given out at startups, like women have a single digit percent. Is some nine percent. We were talking Silicon Valley. So first of all, I wanna make sure that everybody's using the resources here end determined that you're getting the right amount of equity, which is a lot, okay? When you go to cash, I think the way to do it is start with you know what your needs are. Okay so start there. And now you know that's supposed to be fifty percent of your total. Take home pay bright. So you want to gross, it up another fifty percent you wanna double it, and then you gotta pay taxes on top of it. So you wanna go backwards on your math. And look, you know, I by the way, I haven't taken a salary it, my startup in, in years and years. And I'm fortunate to be able to do that. So you may wanna make adjustments. You may say look, I'm in a good place. You know, I've got savings I dip into I've got a partner. I've got a spouse. I've got a whatever I'll leave that thirty percent fund money, and we'll have fun together in the bedroom or something. It doesn't take a lot of money. So you wanna make those decisions. But, you know, I think the, the worst thing we can do is to put all the great stuff off, you know. And I look, I've just I'm kicking myself because his, I'm I hope finishing a chapter, I don't want to say, what is because I'm very superstitious, but I've just gone through a big push at my company and will soon be announced, and you know what? I really didn't have fun for six months. I just didn't. And I really thought I had learned that lesson. Than before, and I sort of forgot it because the responsibility of having seventy two employee's and a quarter of a billion dollars of assets under management, and X number of clients. And we got to get this out, and this is make or break and all that stuff. And you gotta find a way to get those moments of joy, right? If it's exercise. It's exercise, if it's drinking wine. I was telling my husband I'm trying to up my alcohol consumption. Because why not, you know, just but find the just try to with self-care sort of fine, those places where you can have some fun and leave it behind because it's stressful. And for those of you, some of you have been in corporate America, you know, I spend my life, it's in corporate American and start up and I have to tell y'all for those, we haven't this is so much harder. I tell people this is harder than running Merrill, Lynch, and not by a little bit either, you know, coming up with the idea trying to get the right team in place. Trying to get the money raised trying to get the product market fit. Trying to get the marketing try, you know, so many things have to go right in order for it to work. What I love is how y'all are coming together because the challenge for all of us in both corporate America's entrepreneurs has been the being alone. And you know it strikes me that when we were at school, we were we traveled in packs. Right. We all. Survive college because we traveled in packs, we knew we didn't leave a party without our tribe. Right. We didn't leave each other alone. We studied together, we partied together, and then we got into the real world and we got separated, and we were alone in our kitchen, starting our business are we alone in corporate America. And the reason that one of the reasons the guys have been more successful is because they were sharing their term sheets with each other. Right. They were sharing their connections with each other. And so the important thing to remember is that his entrepreneurs not only is it okay for you to be successful. It doesn't take it away from me. It helps me right, because these are pattern recognition folk, and let's have him start to thank. All right woman. Fund. A woman women have great returns. And so I think we can all be helpful to each other and, and rise together rise together. Thank you sell. There was a level of candor from selling Krajicek around kind of the, the real deal about investing the real deal about seeking there. Like there was there was a level of candor in para talk that, I really appreciate it as someone who's been in business, more minute like this. Nets that right? You might get business ghosted like that stuff happens. And the fact that admit happens to someone had Moore level, then kind of validates. I know that I ask you guys to rate review right in pretty much after every episode. I recently got a woman named Jackie who wrote in. I know I always say this makes my day, but it really does vise. So wanted to share this review with you. It's on ever review twenty show this Email with you. It says hi, Rebecca and team. My name is Jackie and I just wanna say thank you. I've been following you and your team for several years now regarding your brand your ideas, and what you guys stand for and have recently gotten into your podcasts after rediscovering. My love for them. It's refreshing to hear from women in your industry and others that are at the top of their field, and all of the insight advice, and funny, anecdotes. They have to share being a college girl who was going into a field. That is male-dominated corporate law tax off on his law. Real estate law. You get the gist. I love to listen to others journeys since I'm living in the generation of instant gratification. I know I have to work hard to get where I want to go and you and your team continued to inspire me with. Every episode. So all the summed up, I want to say thank you. Sincerely, Jackie Kay. Jackie kay. I'm so glad you wrote in keep listening. We have tons, more women coming at you. And for those of you who have not yet downloaded rated and reviewed me at the apple store. Please do so that we can keep bringing us this incredible content. Thanks for listening.

Sally Merrill Lynch Elvis CNBC CEO Frank United States Mike Silicon Valley New York America research analyst CitiGroup Brian Sandy Weill John Bank of America Rebecca Minkoff Smith Barney Sally crosscheck
Shirl Penney on Building a $100 Billion RIA Platform (Podcast)

Masters in Business

1:11:11 hr | Last week

Shirl Penney on Building a $100 Billion RIA Platform (Podcast)

"Bloomberg's masters and businesses brought you by interactive brokers search their deep availability of bonds and compare yields against those of your broker learn. Why zinger named ib k. Our best broker for bonds in twenty twenty one at ib cayard dot com slash bonds. This is masters in business with very reynolds on bloomberg radio. This week. On the podcast. I have a special guest show penny Comes from the most humble of all routes and really want to talk about a horatio alger story of a person who essentially picked himself up by his bootstraps and built a career. And turn that into a powerhouse. Business he runs dynasty financial partners which has over sixty billion dollars on its platform. His story is really. I want to say pretty unique in in wall street very very humble origins and very much a self educated person who was fascinated with finance when he was younger and used that fascination really as a motivation to self educate Auto die daft is the term for that and really become one of the most impressive ceo's in the financial industry space. This is a little inside baseball. It talks about what happens. When advisers brokers at big farms like morgan stanley merrill lynch or ubs decide they wanna go independent and leave those big firms to set up their own. Shop with dynasty does is provides a pathway to do that either so that the person can become independent or the person ends up on Dynasties platform this is a pretty fast growing space. We've seen major changes in the financial services industry over the past twenty years most of that acceleration to place after the financial crisis where i think the once-mighty brands no longer carry the same cachet involvement in in took place with subprime and cdo's and whole that not so much fun stuff. Anyway if you're at all interested in financial services registered investment advisories. Anything along those lines. I think you'll find this to be a fascinating conversation. So with no further ado. Here's my discussion. With dynasty financials show penny. This is masters in business with barry ritholtz on bloomberg radio show penny welcome to bloomberg it buried so great to be here. I am the huge fan of the show. So i'm thrilled to be a part of it. Thanks so much for pretty. Invite well my pleasure. This is this is long overdue. We're going to talk about dynasty in a little. While i wanna start discussing your background in the world of finance. Your story is kinda unique. We mind sharing a little bit about your background with us. Sure i'm i'm happy to look. We're we're all living our own unique version of the american dream. But i'll tell you a little bit about mine so i'm from a little fishing village. The easternmost point in the united states in maine called eastport maine population. Fourteen hundred Raised there by my step grandfather. When i was eleven years old and my grandfather was in his early seventies. The house that we were living in was condemned literally fell down around us. And for three years when i was eleven twelve thirteen. We were homeless live with various neighbors. Obviously very cold in winters in maine but a great motivator when you're cold and hungry at times And always had great love and support of my my step grandfather but was fascinated by by numbers was always good in math. Convince my high school teachers to have the stock market game added at the school and they used to tell people you know. Someday i'm gonna go to college and And head off to wall street and people kind of chuckled. Because not only had. No one in my family ever gone to college. No one from that part of the state had ever Gone off to to new york to build a career in finance. I used to ask a lot of the the tourists who had come visit to bring me copies of financial publications and Was self taught just always fascinated by finance and wealth management. It was determined to somehow some way. Find my way to building a career in and finance and my grandfather always told me. Look you can do anything. Even though he only had a fifth grade education he always told me can do anything you want in life if you work hard enough towards it and and i believed him and it's been quite a journey so you go to not the usual wall street feeder schools. You end up at bates college which is a small liberal arts school. How did you find your way into the financial services industry from that education. We are blessed in the state of maine with three great liberal arts. Schools bateson bowdoin and colby. Many people would know those schools party going to bates was. I could stay in maine and thankfully bury the day before. I graduated from college. My step grandfather who had raised me meant so much to me as you can imagine. He died in my arms. And i had the opportunity to give him my diploma before he did pass. I bought a suit for thirteen dollars at the salvation army And i wrote a boss a couple of days. Pass my graduation to new york. City and i interviewed at smith barney. Which has many of your listeners will know. Is now part of morgan stanley. And i had in turned my junior year at dates at the branch location in portland maine at smith barney so got to know some people there and basically traded summers worth of work for an interview in new york. I rode the bus sixteen hours and my biggest challenge that morning berry was making my way through a revolving door which i'd never seen tap point in my life getting up an escalator which i'd also not Seen again being from a very small town fishing village in maine Making my way through multiple elevator manx arriving there at my interview which i was half hour early for And i just said look you know. I'll here's my maine roots. And i had a job since i was ten years old. Had to and justin look not be the smartest person in the room. But i'll i'll work everyone i'm self taught on i'd studied a lot about you. Know sandy weill and and citi group and smith barney and they said look Come back next week for a second round interview. I said you understand what. I had to go through to get here. I gotta go all the way back to main income back In the first time that i ever flew on an airplane berry was they bought me a flight to come back the following week for the second round interview which went well i was hired and and off. I went to new york. Not knowing anyone. But start my career in finance. So tell us a little bit about your experience at smith barney. What did you do. What roles did you hold an. And how long did you stay there. The punchline is i before starting dynasty financial partners I spent a little over ten years at smith barney and it was a great place to learn the business. I'm a huge believer in mentor ship by committee I had some great mentors When when i was there. I moved around the country which was fantastic. I went to l. a. Went to san francisco. I helped open some private wealth offices there and i tell a lot of people that are looking to build careers in in finances. Stay close to the field. I think some of the challenges that some of the larger firms have right now is management has not ever really spent any significant time in the field to really understand where the rubber hits the road in terms of. You know the adviser client relationship. I've had the good fortune. Barry my whole career the lens through which i see the world is i worked for advisors and i've been fortunate enough that advisors have entrusted me over the course of my career to be their partner in their life's work to help them get new clients. Take care of their clients. Grow their business In that mentality. I brought you know to to this new business here. I was pushed a lie at smith barney and given a lot of responsibility again understanding. You know i was a homeless kid from from maine. Who you know was on welfare and food stamps and trying to work odd jobs and my granddad worked odd jobs to make ends meet and now At the age of twenty seven. I think five years into my career. I was actually put in charge of private wealth management wh- which you know big responsibility of introducing the firm's top clients and prospects to to sandy weill when the senior executives in the firm. Showcasing you know. All of the capability of the organization sitting with these billionaires and advising them on what to do with their money when seventy years prior i'm standing in line in the stick semaine You know waiting for block of government cheese So pretty profound In terms of you know You know where my life went in a short period of time. I was working very hard. You know steps eighteen nineteen hour days. Sometimes because i'm reading all night trying to come up the learning curve with All these various concepts and what i realized early on is that we had remarkable experts in all the different disciplines of wealth management whether it was a state planning capital markets investment banking asset management traditional alternatives etc. But we didn't have a lot of people who understood how they all fit together in the support of an adviser in the support of a large sophisticated client. And that was you know over. Twenty years ago. The early formation of these wealth management divisions and then private wealth management and. I said. I want to be the person who's more than conversation competent and all of the disciplines. And help tie it together and that really helped me grow my career pretty quickly. So brand. Private wealth ran the executive financial services division Which focused on all the firms top corporate executive clients This is you know in the early nineties and early. Two thousands of executive compensation was really taking off with stock options. And that was a big business for us So had an opportunity to run ad. And then what i realized is all the firms top clients who sat across the table from me in an ip meetings that we did with them For the most part they will entrepreneurs and i began thinking about. How do i go from this side of the table to that side of the table How take know all of this knowledge and skill set that adult up in platforms or leading advisors And do it in a way that allows me To be not an employee but an entrepreneur. Start my own business And that was the realization of of dynasty and when i decided to launch it was april of oh eight Which in hindsight was both a very good and bad time to launch. We're headed into obviously the financial crisis later that year. So it's very difficult to raise capital But there were a lot of challenges that the large wall street bring ins Would face over the next several years So from a timing perspective It worked out really well for this. New business model that we created in launch which was to provide an integrated platform service model for high in independent advisors. The timing was right to bring that concept to market Really interesting so. Let's talk a little bit. About what dynasty does What are your core services. What's the short version of of the product. Solution that you offer. Okay thanks barry. Th th the short version of what dynasty does we're in for businesses One is a consulting business that advises advisors based upon where they are in their life cycle what they want to launch a business. We help them do that. You know breaking away from wirehouse etc if they are thinking about succession planning if they're thinking about selling their business will help them With with those types of things as well so that's what our consulting business our second business is our core services running all of the middle and back office For an advisory practice so Technology compliance billing reporting all the things that most advisers don't like to do that frees up their time to take care of their clients and get new ones. They're outsourcing that middle and back office to us in what we call our core service package. Third business is our investment platform. Many people refer to that as you mentioned earlier. The tamp turnkey asset management platform separate managed account access you amaze advisor as portfolio manager trading tools access to alternative managers feeder funds structured products Access and investment banking network that advisers can refer business to for the business owner clients etc. That is an ala. Carte business The advisers can choose to use it or not on behalf of their clients And as you referenced. We have about twenty seven billion Now making us a top six Tamp in in the independent space And then the last business is our capital business dynasty Capital services which is both a debt and equity offering to advisors and oftentimes that capital gets used by visors looking to launch a business to fund succession. A lot of the capital gets deployed If somebody wants to do a recap kind of practice what. They preach take a few chips off the table. Or if they want to grow organically and drive their business by acquiring Other advisers we have a whole emanate team in house. That will outsource a deal help. Get the deal done through the transition the on boarding and finance that transactions what we'll probably do twenty eight deals across the fifty firms or so Over the course of of of this year and the last thing. I think that's unique That that people Sometimes don't understand about our business. We're that little intel sticker Berries so the advisers own the vast majority of the equity in their business if not all of it and dynasty works for them we are an integrated service provider that provides all the infrastructure and capital consulting and support but all of the enterprise value growth of that which advisers can monetize in a tax efficient way down. The road is owned by the adviser themselves. Interactive brokers mutual funds marketplace provides low cost access to more than forty thousand mutual funds including thirty six thousand no load funds and eighty three hundred no transaction fee funds with no proprietary funds. The mutual funds marketplace provides access to funds from third parties including prominent fund families like aliens rock and fidelity interactive brokers is benzinga pick as number one best broker for mutual funds and twenty twenty. One visit i b. k. r. dot com slash funds to learn. Why very interesting. So so let's talk about when you launched. How did you find the i team. That joined the platform. Tell us a little bit about what that process was like in the early days when you're when you're taking that leap of faith and launching a brand new business who who comes along At the very beginning yes so obviously when you're starting a business you know signing up those first few clients is a bit more difficult than it is today. Would you know sixty billion and a standing track record that that we have our first or a Outside client Is a firm called pack. The list There in the dc market Run by gentlemen name alan harder. I had known alan Because he was at smith barney so we had had a previous relationship You know working together there And he launched his firm a little over ten years ago. He's had remarkable success Growing the business Organically and adding new clients and and and new services but it was her tremendously buffet. And it's not lost on us. We we love all our clients obviously but in particular those those early clients when we were. You know an idea like this new concept and we said you know trust us we understand that your life's work And we're going to execute on your behalf but we're gonna jump out this window together in that hand shoots going to go up and it's going to work and you're going to have that safe and soft landing You know it was You know obviously very stressful times With the first five six seven transitions But you know knock on wood. Books all went well and they continue to go well since but You know the our original first handful of clients will always have a special place in my heart because all we were was business. plan a new concept and they trusted us that we'd make it work for them and thankfully we did so. It's now twelve years later. How has the process changed. What have you learned over those dozen plus years. How different does that on boarding new adviser relationship look today versus when you're first starting out. Yeah look i'm biased. When i say this berry Obviously but if you talk to a lot of third party players custodians etc in our space. I think they would say that. Dynasty has the best transition process really of anyone in the space. We've done it more than anyone you know. We've on boarded and bro- broken away. If you talk about breakaway advisers over the past you know just under a dozen years over one hundred and fifty you know significant teams some of which we help them launch their own firm some of which we helped tucked in or join or sub aggregate other firms That we that we had on our platform. We do extensive debrief on every single one. You know thinking about how we can get better And i would say like a lot of businesses that are you north of ten years in You know there's a huge focus on professionalization of the business in the early days You're in startup mode. Everyone's kind of doing everything to get plying san and to actually get to a point where you have a business And then once you have a business then it's how do you make that business better. How do you professionalize. How do you scale it And we've really focused on you know the last five years in particular that technology enabling of all aspects over business. So if you know to your question you know what's different today in advisor. Who's joining up with us to do a transition today. There's a lot more You know digital support. Technology support a lot of practice management around a transition. We have our own proprietary app where we have the hundred and fifty steps that you'll go through in the transition all laid out in detail In a password protected out that an advisor would have his or her phone and when everything goes from red to green Across i mean and we would. We're the staples easy. But we find your real estate negotiate. Believes. design your name your logo. You're branding your marketing. Your pr strategy your launch strategy helping you on the legal strategy around the move setting up your client documentation helping you specter custodian. Doing all the paperwork in in transition Training your staff on the new talk like you name it. We do it And we've done a lot of it So like a lot of things in life. there's no substitute for experience. We have at this point a lot of experience And we've tech enabled we've invested given the success of our business and people in the professional development of those people who support the advisors In perhaps our biggest competitive advantage Is something i mentioned earlier. that everyone who works at dynasty. They're all inequity on They either bought equity in the firm or we have An options inequity program every single person's owner so they act like an owner and they wake up every morning and understand that we have one fundamental job which is to work for and support our advisers and if a transition doesn't go well that will set that advisory firm way back sets us back. We'll get fired right. The philosophical alignment is the know we work for the advisor and the advisor works for the end client. We're comfortable standing and delivered delivering on behalf of our client adviser just like they have to do for for their client and i think a lot of ways and this really started you know twenty five thirty forty years ago with some of the old partnerships berry on wall street starting to go public that alignment Got misaligned right with shareholders in management and advisors and clients The we've brought a lot of that purity of the alignment back Which i think Culturally is a huge competitive advantage for us So so last year. Investment took a minority share with you guys. I assume that capital is gonna give you some serious firepower To do some things with what are the plans to to use that that capital to fund your future growth you. Yeah thanks for that question. I am a very loyal person. And maybe it's impart my my background but you know a lot of the firms that backed us when i was in my garage with the business plan That says a lot of means a lot to me in one of those firms was investment And judd bergman. Who you know we. We all lost too soon. was a very close personal friend of mine as well as swinson. You know some of the other co founders. Here i am bill. Krieger long standing very close personal friend. And you know we had talked over the years about finding more ways that we could work together. You know we utilize some of their technology On on our tamp and what we decided to do Was to launch Something that we're calling the advisor services exchange Which is a joint venture It's run by swinson. Who's the president of that. Entity's also that chief operating officer of dynasty Where we're bringing value. Add business services to our as that our current clients of investment. So helping them run more efficient businesses more tech businesses helping them outsource things that are not core strategic to their firm helping them manage your expenses to build more profitable pnl's which ultimately result in more valuable businesses etcetera And we're off you know. We've watched that about six months ago. We're off to a great start has been. We've built a whole technology. Interface around data So advisers can use the data around their business to make better decisions On how they want to run their business to do business planning. They can leverage our capital programs. Compliance marketing They can outsource aspects of their investments To us again all designed to create scale and efficiency in the business the other thing. Yeah and and and it. It's great it's fast-growing Element of business Because a lot of advisors are looking to outsource the non core. Things the the biggest difference. Barry if you were to look at billion our average ra as but a billion to you to look at a billion to adviser. Let's say that we've launched as a breakaway verses the average billion to ria. That's already independent. Coming to us to outsource on average which i find fascinating the advisers that we broke away and stood up on average over five hundred basis points more profitable and they can grow faster the biggest reason for that when you really peel back the numbers and do the analysis is because on average the billion to from that we set up has three less people. The legacy are a Because the custodians are really good in the back office but don't really do the work that middle office have had to hire up when you can get synthetic scale and outsourced to a firm like dynasty. You don't have to hire as many people and yes you know with the vendors and the resource partners with sixty billion we get a little bit cheaper but the real delta comes from personnel savings And then not having to manage those people which frees up more time and if you assume a multiple of seven or eight times and some times higher in terms evaluation times five hundred basis points you can extrapolate that out to say the firms on our platform or almost a third more valuable because of the enhanced earnings That we're able to help to help to help drive So party yeah. That was a big part very why they did. The investment. the other piece quick is because a lot of the in this gets into our Enterprise group Which is servicing as to show clients a lot of the larger independent broker dealers. That investment is servicing One of the biggest challenges. They're facing their largest. Visors are starting to graduate off of their platform and go fully independent and a little bit of back to the future here. What i did fifteen years ago helping to build the private wealth division smith born for that same reason. The top advisors are looking to leave. We had to build a client segmentation strategy a dedicated firm within a firm for the elite advisers covering the firm's top clients. That's a private wealth division is. You're going to start to see these High in private client or private wealth divisions popping up at the independent broker dealer. And some of those. I believe will decide to outsource that to invest in that and dynasty. Because we already have that integrated platform we we understand and have the dna around how to develop a private wealth division. So i think you'll see some of that work coming into the market which is great for us because it's groups of advisers and billions of assets at a time coming on our platform it'll be good for those firms to create a division netted advisor congratulate into as to off of their firm and it will be great for investment that because you know the eighty twenty rule the top twenty percent of the advisors at the ibd's have the bulk of the assets and create the revenue which then obviously flows back to invest that as technology and asset management partner to those independent broker dealers as well so it was really those two reasons why they made the investment we added to the board Remarkable perspective that he brings from the industry And it's just been a great partnership terrific so a number of firms have relocated out of the tristate region towards greener pastures. You moved from new york city to saint petersburg florida. Tell us about the motivation for the move. What why new york so. We officially moved to saint petersburg two years ago. But we started the journey on you deciding if we were going to move and looking at various cities About three years ago so we spent a full year I personally made Very thirty five trips To various cities primarily up and down the east coast Because it was in marianne my wife went with me other senior executives. Because when you're asking we have a very diverse leadership team by financial service Standards when you're asking people to make a move out of manhattan Into dislocate you know their family. You wanna make sure that you have extreme conviction that it's the right thing for the business on the right thing for the for the teams you can imagine. We took that took that very very serious and ultimately for us. We're middle middle office back off. His company the closer you are to the client The less margin pressure you have. I mean advisers are feeling it a little bit but we feel it more in the new office obviously custodians and the back office feeling even more But for us you know. I find that businesses that do the hard things when things are really good To put them in a position to win disproportionately when things are more challenging. Are the ones that that win. More disproportionately over the long term so for us. Things are great several years ago We obviously ended up. You know Being a bit lucky In terms of being here when the pandemic hit But the result is for us being here berry Seventy percent cheaper real estate personnel costs twenty percent cheaper Which allows us to take those savings bill. The more profitable business also make more investments in technology and in people to service our clients The infrastructure that's here is fantastic In terms of the ability to get anywhere with saint pete airport the tampa airport the quality of life. We found a lot of our employees. We're tired of commuting an hour and a half And having the ability to walk to work. I mean saint pete. Most walkable city in america has great culture here. Entertainment arts the pro sports team. They seem to win everything in a couple of years. I'll take a little credit 'cause that wasn't the case when we first moved here but it's happened it has have consent But you know. I think pete i was gonna say you picked a yeah. I was gonna say it's funny. You picked saint petersburg I've been spending a week or two each winter down there and but for the pandemic we would have been down there for a month or so this year And and you know everybody kinda got stuck in place we weren't going to Try try and do it in the middle of pandemic. But i find that whole area on the gulf coast to be absolutely charming. It's it's a very different head space than the east coast of florida places. Like miami or any other big cities along fort lauderdale anything else. That's along the atlantic coast. We looked at some of those locations. And you're right it is. It is charming. We found that the delta in terms of some of the cost savings could be a little bit higher here But really cinched it for us is every time i came here bury. It felt like i was getting a community. Bear hug Every everyone from you know the mayor. Recruitment the economic development team that here to multiple. Ceo's to the owners of the sports teams that are here Everyone really wanted to partner with us. And you know raymond james Is here and i'm friendly with paul riley who runs raymond james They were very supportive. you know even though we're in finance we're not obviously directly in their space which is primarily an employee wealth management business But the last couple of years. What's interesting raymond. James has been one of the top. Acid gathered in the employee channel. And we've been the top acid gather on the independent side In both of those firms located and headquartered in saint petersburg So that to me really highlights the where we are now as an industry with technology Availability of talent product access. You can really build a large scales successful business in finance anywhere in the country. And i would say the last plug for saint pete To your earlier point. I think over the next ten years. One of the hottest cities Fastest growing where. You're going to see remarkable You know economic development in technology finance In other key industries is right here in saint pete starting courage any business owner that is looking at this part of the country to look at saint pete because this pretty remarkable things happening here the only way we're going to get out of this pandemic is mass vaccination but the problem is many americans. Just don't trust vaccines skepticism. Didn't start with roll rollout of vaccine or in march twenty twenty or even donald trump. This moment has been brewing for decades. I'm kristen be brown. The host of doubt a new series from bloomberg prognosis. In this podcast. We'll trace the rise vaccine skepticism in america to show how we got here. And where we're going doubt launches on march twenty third subscribed to prognosis today on apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so so you're kinda pointing at at something. That i think is the one of the takeaway lessons from the pandemic. But let me ask it to you this way. What what lessons have the pandemic taught you about running a firm remotely and does this give wirehouse advisors uneven greater incentive to depart. Well great question. So i i would say you know to the first piece We support advisers. And i think what are geysers learnt. Is that being Proximate and over communicating In proactive. I mean this was the over the past year. Barry it's been the adviser super bowl in in those that have done those stings. are growing fast. I mean it's you know one of the one of the rare times when literally everyone wants to talk to a financial adviser and those that took advantage of that opportunity. We have just seen remarkable Organic growth of the firms that we support in terms of our business and the home office that supporting the advisers and similarly you know the importance of over communication being proximate with our clients and has been critical. Some of the challenges that that we've seen Is around hiring new people. The on boarding is challenging in this environment. I mean we have some employees that have gone six months that our new team members that haven't had the chance to meet the broader team members culture Which is so important within. Business is very difficult to to drive. I find remotely Efficiencies sometimes there's no substitute to walking around the corner and tapping collie you know on the shoulder and saying. Hey how do i do this or what do you think here you now. It's an email or you know a zoom call and maybe the person's not immediately So some of those things are a little bit more challenging. But i think they'll get worked out as businesses if back into you know maybe a hybrid or what. I call some time. The cyborg of the business. Which is leveraging technology with the with the human element. I think we'll end in a place. Where one plus one equals three To the question about Advisors breaking away without question our businesses spring loaded right now we're gonna have Just a fantastic Two thousand twenty one In large part because the breakaway adviser movement is accelerating a lot of advisers. Historically in wire houses have thought that a big part of what they give up for the fifty percent of the revenue that they give to the wirehouse Big part of that value is real estate. There now not getting. And they've now realized that they don't need that real estate as part of the servicing infrastructure to their client. They also have more free time because they're not in the office they can explore Independence or explore move and get educated so the combination of those things having more time to stick their head up and look around and explore and realizing that they don't need to give up fifty percent of their revenue Advisers that we support give up fifteen percent one five not five zero. And you know. They've got if they wanna have a small office they can but the average adviser on our platform is doing you know mid sixties high sixties in terms of gross income. Which is almost fifty percent more from an income standpoint on what they were receiving wirehouse And you know. The path to independence has become More well worn at this point They they wanna look peer to peer and have those conversations. Success breeds more success So what we're finding berry in light of this environment It's only accelerating that movement towards independence quite quite interesting. Let's talk a little bit about the growth of the industry. You're now over. Sixty billion dollars on your platform between tampa and enterprise and adviser assets. How do you grow that. Two hundred billion dollars in a. Um its organic growth helping advisors get new clients And you know we maybe you've seen You know in the past you know multiple months over the past year. We've started to sponsor particular a lot of local trying to support some of the local athletes And golf in indycar racing and tennis to help get the brand awareness Out there more. We have a lot more of that activity. Come that has led to referrals That we can make out to our advisers. And i think about us really becoming over the next five years Impart the good housekeeping seal of approval for independent bite. So if you're looking for An independent advisor look for one. That's powered by dynasty right. Because here's all the buying power and support and technology That they have. And i think dynasty can can become a much bigger part Helping our advisers grow organically second part of our growth will come inorganic meaning helping or advisors grow via mna whether it's Retiring aria principles that are looking to monetize their business whether it's breakaway advisors who want all the benefits of independence but maybe don't want to run their own business and they want to join and independent firm That will continue to become an even larger part of our business and our growth because of our fifty firms. I would say more than half of them. Now or emanate ready and we've invested heavily in investment banking team in house We've reserved a lot of our capital and balance sheet To help finance those transactions. So i think a lot of that as i said well accelerate and then obviously the third is new store sales In thinking about adding a dozen or so new brands That are powered by dynasty. Whether they were already independent firms that are looking to outsource to us Or they're coming from you know captivity or an employee model and looking you know to to own and operate their own firm are flows are are very strong in that regard so those will be the primary drivers and then the new business as we've mentioned it's coming on the enterprise business. I think selectively. You'll see a few firms. An example of that would be mariner which is a thirty five billion dollar Or a run by martin. Bicknell who i think is a great. Ceo in the ra space decided he wanted to have a platform affiliate model where advisers that didn't want to sell the mariner could get all the benefits of the investment acumen and practice management coaching support of mariner and then dynasties turnkey platform supports that You know we're getting hundreds of referrals on our website. A month A lot of us advisers are fifty seventy five one hundred million Many of them don't want to sell. So we have now a channel partnership with mariner where the adviser can go get the benefit of our plan. More get the benefit of the support of mariner and not have to sell their business today. So you'll see us selectively. Enter into those types of partnerships maybe support some of the larger independent broker dealers standing up a private wealth division so selectively on boarding some of these institutional clients at all that together Now i'll stick my neck out here a little bit berry here on the show to say i'd like to see us inside of twenty four months Crossover the two hundred billion dollar mark. That's a big number. So so let me flip the question on you. What a wire house is doing to try and retain their top talent. They have to be aware of. It's not just you. It's places like hightower l. p. l. that are attracting a whole lot of talent from them. What can they do to staunch the bleeding. Well look our biggest competitor Frankly is inertia and complacency and as you know in lots of Walks of life Good is the enemy of great And a lotta the advisers. They've worked hard to build their book of business And they don't want you to to go through the whole of a transition you know which is ninety days of of of of work To then get on the other side and have their business so you know for us. Typically a loss would be that we spent six months educating somebody and they just made a decision not to move It's rare that we would dig in somebody and they would move and not do it with us in the ra space Because most of the advisors want a supported independent model. They don't want to have to hire all the people and they don't wanna juggle sixty five different vendor balls You know so. They decide to partner with us. What the wire houses are trying to do. is to put these retiring place programs in place which takes advantage of russia Reality is if an adviser goes independent They would make a lot more money both in terms of income. They could decide when they want to retire if they sell their businesses long term capital gains tax and higher valuation but many advisers. Just you know. Take the easier path which is to say. I'll stay here as a three month or now it's all w. two income But it's easier So why houses again understand You know the inertia and complacency is on their side. So they're putting those programs in place. I think what they're also doing Smartly and advisors are allowing it to happen is to push forward their brand More directly to the client You see this you know merrill with merrill edge you see you know a lot of the smaller accounts solutions being rolled out at these firms. Which is the institutionalizing of the client relationship. So the client has more relationship with the brand as opposed to the adviser Checking accounts loans. All these so you you cross someone with multiple products and then You put him into models that the firm is running not the adviser and then it becomes a deterrent for the advisers leave because a lot of their clients You see it at firms like and others where you have. Typically a lower percentage of client assets that follow when the adviser leaves because the client tends to have more of a relationship with the brand As opposed to some of the firms which just the relationship with the adviser. I think the wire houses are are strategically. Trying to do more of that whether it's tying them in with loan products structured products things that are proprietary to the firm. It's about driving the brand and creating stickiness. And i think ultimately you know over the next five years or so you'll see the wire houses looking and feeling more like a private bank where the adviser is more of a clear employees And you know they're helping the cross sell relationship across the organization And it would become more difficult in that environment for an advisor to to make a move. So i think i think that's really the strategy that you're seeing be be deployed Longer term perhaps You could see some of these firms open up product access. Maybe even eventually custody To independent advisors but that business is such a scale business and you have firms like schwab that have you know. North of three trillion already clearly. A big lead fidelity you know well. North of the trillion pershing's skilled player in that space. It's very difficult to have an employee model supporting advisers and an independent models supporting advisors when you're subscale and the ladder So i think It will be a slow migration in probably more about product distribution to ra's then it will be turn custody for most of those platforms. This podcast is brought to you by marsh mcclennan. This is an extraordinary moment. The challenges are vast yet. So are the possibilities. The future of work climate resilience digital disruption affordable healthcare stakeholder capitalism for one hundred fifty years marsh mclennan has been at your side finding opportunity and navigating uncertainty in the areas of risk strategy and people one thing will never change marsh. Mclennan will be there for you in the moments that matter learn how at m c dot com very interesting. The there's a quote of yours. I really enjoy and i wanna have you put some collar on it quote the amount of innovation in the last five years is greater than the fifty that preceded that unquote give us a little more explanation. Are you talking generally technology financial innovation. I don't disagree with any of that. I'm curious as to to your thoughts on it. Yeah look the. The reality is the whole independence based independent. At this point. It's been discovered. And you see if you're an aria you decide to sell there's twenty potential buyers that show up on the other side I mean it's just a wonderful business. It's a new ties. it essential to our country. It's not going away So so all roads are starting to lead towards the ra space and what that means is the capital investment. That's coming in the attention. That's being paid is you're seeing tremendous innovation Across the board. So yes in technology In reporting technology in oc f. o. Technology in ohio Technology in skilled compliance technology basically all aspects of an advisory practice. And when you're in the independence space berry and you don't have to worry about You know having fifty years of legacy technology that you can only incrementally move the needle with but when we watch an area. We're building from scratch custom technology to specifically fit the need of the way they want to service the client. That's a huge advantage for them on the product side. You know whether. It's you know partners now. Like i capital and access to alternatives that really started independence space or halo on the structure product front. Or you know what invest net has done to bring scale you know into the into the camp and reporting and financial planning space so many of those berms started on the independent side. And now you have wire houses and banks trying to leverage that technology that started here ride so the space has kind of turned upside down. And then you pour on top of it you know kind of the gas on the fire which is tremendous capital investment And entrepreneurship from one of our biggest advantages. We are entrepreneurs servicing other entrepreneurs right so we're getting up every day and thinking about innovation. And how do we make the advisors life better and the whole ecosystem that's evolved over the last ten years right i it. It's driven by entrepreneurs who had great access to technology capital. That are fundamentally changing the way that what wealth management team being delivered in this country. And i think frankly you know it's just gonna continue to accelerate really interesting. You mentioned scale i. It reminds me of the issue of market share. It's been pointed out a handful of the largest. Are i as our hundred billion plus when the industry is measured in tens of trillions of dollars. Meaning even the biggest firms barely have any sort of market share. Does that mean anything. Is there any significance to how badly diversified and distributed the industry itself. This what. I do think that there will be brands. That evolved on the national level regional level Within the ra space That will how real brand value In dynasty hopes to be again that intel sticker powering A number of those national scale winners and helping to provide a lot of the and access that that that supports them but the reality is when you look at you. Know the economics of the wealth management business. A lot of people talk about you. Know the margin margin pressure That's happened in the industry but when you look at the last ten years That has occurred but but in a different way than what most people describe it. And what i mean by that is. We looked at the average end client on our platform is. Let's say about five million dollars. The average client is being advised by one of the advisers ten years ago the roa on average on our platform for that slide million dollar client was around seventy eight basis points today It's seventy four seventy five so you've had you know three or four basis points of erosion in terms of margin pressure but the big change is the cost. The service came years ago. The client expectation might have been very simplistic financial plan And it's really an asset management relationship. Today is more holistic wealth management. it's integrated financial planning It's looking at the liability side of the balance sheet alongside of the acid side You know it's looking at overall risk management it's inc of alternative investments alongside a traditional etc etc so that team investment the technology investment. You know what it costs to service. That client has gone up so the margin pressure actually is coming faster on the cost side than it is on the revenue side. And that's where scale matters. That's where these large multibillion dollar independent firms higher profitability because they're able to spread the cost infrastructure over more client that's why outsourcing to firms like dynasty is accelerating because you can get synthetic scale and then the last part of the competitive advantage is marketing and dollars that you're able to spend on sales whether it's adding new kleiner adding into advisor the larger and more scale. You have the more free cash flow you have to make those investments and that's why the biggest firms the ones that you tend to see growing the fastest right now so so let's talk about some of the biggest firms. People have compared dynasty to firms like hightower or l. p. l. Who are do you think of as as your competitors Similarities and differences between them. Look you know this It's lonely at the top sometimes And the result is you know. The space tends to be pretty small. So i know the ceo's of most all of these firms in the space and we get together from time to time and we we we share a laugh Whether it's about a certain reporter or you know where the industry's going The reality is you know the people. At the top of the organization you know from peer to peer practice management perspective. Spend some time together and in particular. Barry i have a lot of respect for the other entrepreneurs that have gone out there And bet on himself and trying to execute a new model in terms of competition There's a lot. I'm only forty four years old. I was thirty two. When i decided to start the business going to be doing this for a while and it's a lot of fun for me to be a mentor. To frankly a lot of these players coming in space you know. These are firms being started by people. That are still older than me. Even though i'm seen as one of the original you know visionaries in the space I'm still only forty four So it's nice for me to be able to mentor. So many people coming in. I don't see anyone today as a scaled integrated platform competitor to the high in oreo. We invented that. We created that space. Sixty billion as i said a hundred billion here in the in in the near term We're not complacent only the paranoid survive So we're constantly watching what others are doing like in the space where we sit today. I think we sit alone now. You mentioned firms Somebody's roll ups. Some of them have come in and out of the platform business but as i mentioned earlier I tell entrepreneurs you gotta be laser focused. It's very difficult to do. One thing incredibly. Well it's impossible to do several things. Well so if you wanna be a roll up in an acquirer businesses do that. Don't try to platform service company as well especially if you only have subba hundred billion. I mean the players out there with with with half a trillion. That can't do it. That are trying to build different types of models and there's still subscale so for us. We've been laser focused on just supporting advisors being a platform company and staying in in that in that swim lane And there's really no one else doing that. Our nurse show advisors not leaving big competitor You mentioned pl. There's a lot of independent broker dealers that are trying to figure out how they reinvent himself as an advisory firm how do they become an ra. Custody and How do they attract more adviser says how do they build tamp capabilities so a lot of if you think about where we're in twenty different businesses that we just integrate it into a platform. A lot of our individual businesses may have competition But we're still the only fully integrated offering at the high end Of the model. And the last thing i would mention that they haven't mentioned yet. The competitive advantage is our community. And i would say look you know. Winners want surround themselves with other winners There really isn't a community where the average ceo in principle is a billion dollar plus or a They're geographically dispersed all the countries. They don't really compete with each other where they can get together several times a year at our events and share appeared appear on. What's working best practices. What isn't working on various growth strategies on brand development on staffing So you know our community I think is a is a very powerful differentiator. Because i think you're defined not just by who you service but also who you don't and for dynasty thinking about our clients. We're not trying to be something to everyone. We're trying to be everything to someone And that's the someone that really plays the high in the market that wants a partner is focused on building a great business. Not just a great practice. Really wants to drive enterprise value and wants to have a sustained business over time. That's our core focus. Client sound. sounds clayton treating. I know we only have you for a couple more minutes. So let me jump to my favorite questions that we ask all of our guests starting with what's keeping you entertained during this work from home period. Tell us what your favorite netflix or amazon. Prime shows are or what podcasts you. Listen to so in terms of The little bit of time. I have away from away from work As far as shows and podcasts barry. I i've never been one to watch a lot of television to be honest with you I do watch sports From from from time to time and and follow my favorite teams But i do. Listen to podcasts I'll give you a nice compliment and plug masters business Is definitely one of my one of my favorite podcasts I do To jaakko will podcast My wife and i are big. Supporters of military. Jaakko obviously is a former navy seal but somebody his shows around leadership and overcoming adversity You know. I really enjoy those. I am a fellow at the aspen institute in their finance fellowship program. I really like The aspen ideas to go Podcast you know there are some quick hits on Interesting ideas leadership entrepreneurship etcetera And ted talks From time to time or things. That that i'll take in when i'm taking a long walk. You know here. In saint. Pete but i'm more of a podcast Person honestly than somebody who is Watching netflix amazon prime. Gotcha so let's talk about some of your early mentors who helped to shape your career in terms of my most early mentor without questions. My step grandfather raised me. His name was pirates townsend Both of my daughters are named after him My older daughter name's townsend are younger. One is an clare declares. From clarence is they say were named after one of our angels He taught me the importance of doing what you say integrity Being honest he never borrowed a dollar in his life So disappointed around. Not spending more than you can afford A lot of that obviously was very Helpful to me. As i said when i was starting a business and remembering a lot of those Life lessons that. I learned from him on the entrepreneur side. One of my best friends is a guy named micro poli Your listeners will. We know the name. Mike was one of the founders of vitamin water He helped build other brands Time bar and pirate's booty Which you didn't found. And then he went on to found now. Body armor very few entrepreneurs ever founded a billion dollar brand from the ground up even fewer number Have done it more than once and body armor. Certainly you know multi-billion dollar brand at this point as was vitamin water. So early on when i was looking to launch this business Mike was a remarkable sounding board. He and i actually named dynasty together which we thought about those sports guys so we thought about it meaning winning consistently over time Multi generational financial obviously describes the industry and partners in terms of how we work with our clients are we sourced partners and relate to each other internally so if you were to look at bury the dynasty logo You will see some similarities to the vitamin water logo. I s because when you have a branding genius. Who's helping you early on. You wanna listen. So i would i would say was Was a great mentor to me. You know early on and starting. According to one poll research shared by pay com employees are so frustrated with tech. They use at work. That sixty seven percent said they're willing to take a pay cut for something better. Ouch only pay comes. Comprehensive technology automates their hr and payroll tasks in a single software. That's easy to use and for employers automatically measures the roi that results learn. How the right. Hr tek can help by visiting pay com dot com slash frustrations. That's pay com dot com slash frustrations. So let's look about books. Tell us what some of your favorite reads are. And what are you reading right now. Well i just read And this is. This is going to be a shameless plug For someone who's a friend of both of us i actually just had the opportunity To finish reading You know josh. Brown's book on how i invest my money Joshua josh and i've been personal friends for for quite some time and what you know. You have remarkable talent and partner there who thinks the world of of you And let me just jump. Let me just jump in here. Say i remember when the two of you. I wanna say it was twenty fifteen. Were both named to the forty under forty list is am. I getting dates right. Yeah he's much older than me but that's right. Yes you guys are about the same age we are. We all kidding aside. We are kindred spirits. And he he's the best so he invited a great idea for a book by the way the to to speak to a bunch of people in finance and say. Don't tell us what you say on. Tv tell us how you invest your own money. I love that idea. I i do too when he sent it to me. What the first thing. I said to him is. This is brilliant. And i'm shocked that no one else thought about it. I said did you do your research. Has anyone else does this. And he said. I'm telling you they haven't and i get people reaching out to me all over the world. I mean it's it's it's it's pretty special saying hey i just read your chapter of of of how i invest my money And i love how you said. You know how you think about the family capital or i have a fun bucket. Which for me is houses and my horses. We have a horse racing stable And people from all walks of life have reached out. So it's been great. And i'm glad that that josh invited me to be a part of it. The other book. I'll mentioned which i just started to read. I'm a big proponent. I talked about mentor ship. Both being a mentor And being mentored by a committee of people just started reading a in professional development in yourself and your team. A book called tribe of mentors which as written by gun in tim ferriss and joy a book that get introduced to me through the aspects to and you know again it's early You ask what. I'm reading right now but I love the concept of Of group mentoring. What sort of advice would you give to a recent college grad who was interested in a career either as an advisor or in the professional finance services in the street berry. I love that question. First and foremost. I would say do it. We need you You know the the financial health and wellness of our country is not where it should be Whether it's On a national or state level whether it's the fact that over seventy percent of americans can't put their hand on a thousand dollars in an emergency You know given my background. And how. I grew up Financial literacy is something that's near and dear to me. It's fundamentally changed The life that i've been able to live so we need more people to come into the industry Please do it. It's critical You know to to to our country and terms of specific advice to someone starting out of it. It's it's it's not about what you earn. It's about what you learn in the first. Let's call it three years so finding a great mentor finding organization. Finding team that cares about your development will push you will let you fail. We'll that you learn from those mistakes If you can find that environment and you're going to get paid five to ten thousand dollars less Than an environment that you're not gonna have that. Take the lower pay It's all about you know what you learn tuition You know think about it that way early on if it's a lower Price job and put yourself in that environment because it'll pay massive dividends for you over the course of your career and our final question. What do you know about the world of financial services investing advising today that you wish you knew twenty twenty five years ago when you were first getting started. Yeah well that's a good one because again. I'm forty four now so you subtract off twenty five. I was in one thousand nine year. Old kid But look what. I like to tell a lot of young people and certainly would would tell my nineteen year old self Is to have the discipline to pay yourself first from an investment perspective and as we all know it's not always about getting right whatever that means you know the the asset allocation Because that'll change over time or security selection etc. It's about actually being disappointed to save. And whether you're saving five percent earlier And even if that number appears to you know. I hear a lot of people saying i can only save fifty dollars a month. Well that's great. That's wonderful place starts. Save the fifty dollars. Start to invest it and let the miracle of compound interest. Start to work for you as early as possible in your life. And i love getting that message out to young investors Just to get them started and being disciplined. We all have a lot of priorities. But if we can say look. Five percent early on our check Without exception regardless of what seems to be you know big priority in our life. We're going to pay ourselves first and start. Investing it get a simple financial plan in place. you look back to your question twenty five years later you'll be very glad that you did it. Great stuff. we've been speaking with shirl penny. He is the founder and ceo of dynasty finance partners. If you enjoy this conversation we'll be sure and check out any of the previous four hundred such interviews. We've conducted over the past seven years. You can find that at. I tunes spotify wherever you feed your podcast fix. We love your comments feedback and suggestions. Write to us at 'em. ib podcast at bloomberg dot net. Sign up for my daily reads at ritholtz dot com. Check out my weekly column on bloomberg dot com slash opinion. Follow me on twitter at ritholtz. I would be remiss if i did not thank the crack. Staff that helps put these conversations together each week. Reggie brazil is my audio engineer. Michael boyle is my producer. A valve ron is our project manager. Michael bat nick is my head of research. I'm barry ritholtz. You've been listening to masters in business on bloomberg radio. You're listening to masters in business. With barry ritholtz on bloomberg radio market disruption has accelerated the need for increased efficiency and scale in the asset management industry. Do you have the right technology to propel. Your firm's growth bloomberg by side solutions are engineered to deliver a seamless enterprise experience so you can gain a competitive edge. Data analytics trading risk operations connected. The buy side from every side visit bloomberg dot com slash by side.

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372: Richard Waine  How to achieve financial success as a photographer

PhotoBiz Xposed

42:20 min | 9 months ago

372: Richard Waine How to achieve financial success as a photographer

"This is. Episode, Number Three, hundred, seventy, two and today we are talking numbers, prophet, loss, sales, revenue, and what you need to do to achieve financial success today. Special guest is a headshot photographer who spent most of his working life working in finance before finding his calling as a headshot photographer I'm talking about Richard. Wine interviews coming up in just a minute. Planning to have a successful waiting and portrait photography business join. Andrew is he introduced successful photographers and business experts to fast track your success. Welcome to the photo. Bees exposed podcast with your host Andrea Helmet. Sandra Helmi chip on impact images and welcomes this episode of the podcast. Get Your notepad and pen or pencil ready because I am confident, there's GonNa be a bunch of note taking today's interview with Richard before we jump into that if you didn't catch last week's episode with Tenure Girls Myth and you looking at building a branding photography business from scratch yourself. Get back and have a listen to tenure. She started her business from scratch. Like we all do. And the beauty of her business is. She started with graphic design background, so you'll see immediately that she has a beautiful website and she leverage what she knew, and had learned about branding, and applied that to her branding photography business, which she has built to suit the lifestyle that she wants says she has time for her kids, her family and things outside photography, and she's doing this in a small city, so yeah tenure Goldsmith! Get back and have a listen if you didn't catch that one. You're listening to the number. One photography business podcast with Andrew. Helmets votto. BIZ ACHES DOT. com. Or we're going to jump into this interview with Richard Wine in just a second. If you're hearing this announcement, it does mean you're listening to the free version of the PODCAST. What that means is. You might be hearing the full interview today with Richard, because I do save a big chunk of the second half for we dive deep into the numbers for premium members I only, but the good news is you can the full interview if you want to for as little as one dollar with a thirty day trial membership head over to photo BS x dot com forward slash. Try if you want to check that out I'll send you everything you need to get started with your membership, so you can hear the full interview today with Richard Get access to the full back catalogue, and also send you an invite to the premium members facebook group, so you can see just how good that he's. Thought IT'D BE ZACKS DOT com forward slash. TRY IF YOU WANNA learn more about that. Great. It's time for Andrew Special guest. Today's guest is a headshot photographer recommended by a previous guest, Alma lab brophy. She said when introducing him. He is a financial guru. Really he's helped me. Realize my spending budget and cash flow through spreadsheets. He's created photographers. He has a background in finance. And he shared his experience and knowledge with many of us in pay. Tallies headshot crew where he serves as a mental. I went off to do a little digging before sending an envoy and found a fantastic website. Great headshot photography four a photographer based in Pennsylvania USA. It was difficult to see if he was successful or not. Just looking at the website, I did some more searching and I found. He is a university graduate. He's worked most of his career and finance before finding his calling as a headshot photographer. I'm talking about Richard Wine of Richard Wine. Photography and I'm looking forward to learning more and rat to having with us now, Richard Welcome. Andrew thanks for having me I. appreciate it. It's my pleasure, and like I said you have a fantastic website, but it so difficult to get an idea of what businesses like how things boy you in business photographer. Ashley I love making headshots in businesses is actually great pandemic notwithstanding think. So when you say business is great, let's put aside the pandemic, and we can talk about prior to overcome what you expect coming out of it, but when you say businesses had measure that businesses great view. So I have a great deal of different. That I consider not just revenue. Although revenues end, you'll probably agree with me of cash is king revenue is King and nothing tells you that you're doing all the right things more than your income and your revenue stream, but I'm also looking at things like social proof in how I perceived out in the industry, and in my particular demographic in my market. How people are are thinking of me. What is my reputation? Those are important metrics as well so I mean it's easy to measure revenue while it's relatively easy. How do you measure that is other metrics well? Social proof is certainly a very big. Guess we call it a key performance indicator KPI. And, so the first place I'm going to go to Google I wanNA know what people are saying about me, and I'd like to look at the reviews. People have left and I do interact with both present past and hopefully future clients so I'd love to hear where they're coming to me from. Where am I getting my referrals? What people think of me after the experience? What people think of the experience? All of that information actually gets fed back into my workflow and or my website depending on what it is, they're telling me. How can I make the experience better? What information can I provide? That would maybe push them towards perhaps booking with me again or referring one of their friends or colleagues. So you relying purely on online research to get that information, or are you using question as and things like that directly with your clients? I don't actually use questionnaires our at I'd sooner get on the telephone rock I. I prefer an old school type of methodology. I do believe that the conversation seems to be dying, but I'm all too happy to dial a telephone. And ask a few questions of ask clients. I will email with them to arrange a time or maybe. I'll just ask them outright. How's your experience or I might even give them the link to the Google Review and Let them go for Nice Nice talking about the revenue side of things. What do you feel good revenue for a headshot photographer? Is that a number you can come up with? I think that really depends on where you're located in true so where I am in Pennsylvania. You're really not going to find top of the market in other words. You can compare Lancaster Pennsylvania to New York City. There's really no way the cost of living is different. The revenue streams are different, the ability to diversify in some way shape or form the access to various resources is different so perhaps fifty sixty seventy thousand dollars a year where I live could be the equivalent of one hundred one hundred fifty dollars in New, York City. So, how can you adequately measure that type of success so what I would probably say is? Determine what it is you as a photographer want to make per year and work backwards. Don't simply rely on the numbers to measure your success, but work backwards this way when you do achieve those numbers than you know, that's the break, even point that's the place where you want to be. That's a nice sweet spot. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't always pushing the envelope and push the rates higher as you get better as the demand for your work increases, you know I still operate Mama simple laws of supply and demand. Right so based on what you've just said Doin. Mike the Assumption that you know you have a revenue of sixty thousand dollars. More, yes. More than that, yes, okay, so businesses good. It's your fulltime job. You're making your soul income from hedge photography. That's correct, but I think there's a little bit of disclosure involved in I. Don't simply make headshots. People go on their merry way. I have different arms to my business diversified income stream on the other hand. I am also consulting photographers on their businesses, and helping them with their analytics, and understanding what their numbers are telling them so that they can apply that information and form a strategic and tactical plan to improve them, so there's a consulting arm to my business so there multiple streams of income in there, but yes, photography in specifically headshot and portraits. Photography is the majority of that income I K. Back to the finance things in the numbers in just a second, but Tony about that transition you might from the finance industry to photography. Have Quick did that happen? How did you make that transition? Oh I can't remember the exact year. Both let's call it eons ago. I had an ex girlfriend who had a son who was a high school wrestler and I said Gee wouldn't it be great to have pictures of him wrestling for sentimental purposes. And so I went out, and I bought a camera, and what I discovered very quickly was not only did my images stink, but I had no idea what I was doing. So I did what any rational human being would do I took to the University of Youtube. and. What I discovered was that I didn't have the right equipment. And I certainly had no idea what I was doing like I said so I gathered whatever pennies I had and went back to the drawing board at picked up. GSA are and I realized that Gee the entry level lars are not going to do what I want to do. And the reason. Why is because as a novice I picked the most difficult environment in which to make a picture, an high school gymnasium with very very low lighting shooting, wrestling match, which could be over within ten seconds or six minutes. It would take me six minutes just to turn the camera on. So. Long Story Short is that I had no idea what I was doing, and so I sat down to more youtube videos and I happened across a video that Peter early had done or a Google plus platform. And I was enamored. He was magnetic in energetic. Absolutely hysterical literally left my rear end off for about two hours and I said okay. I've worked in professional atmosphere all my life when you want to get better at something, there's always a conference how what conferences are around for photography, so I found one in New York City now. I'm originally from New York. And have spent most of my career there. So this is familiar. Territory said this is wonderful out go to. The conference will have a great time. Maybe learned something Lo and behold Peter was on the docket to do a a panel or a demonstration, and once again I laughed my rear end off for an hour and a half I've just, but the images were absolutely beautiful hair. They were gorgeous images the way in which. which she got those images to watch him work on stage. It was really captivating, and so pretty much. That's where I made the command decision that if I'm going to pursue anything in photography, it's going to be otographer and I had to meet Peter. I had rubbed elbows with the right people that day or that evening, because I ended up at a party that he was co hosting with the F. Stoppers guys. And, so I walked up to him after grabbing a drink I introduced myself, and he said Hey. It's great to me. You know very warm and inviting us again. Let me see your pictures and pulled out a few that I had on my cell phone and without missing a beat, and this very well known story at this point, but for those that don't know without missing a beat. He looked at those pictures and said man. You fucking suck. and. I mean it was a great chuckle I mean we had a great laugh at it, but I don't come from a place of. Failing I Fail I will work and work in work until unsuccessful and so I said look if I'm that bad. Teach me I. joined the First Iteration of his coaching platform, which was called P. H. Two pro. At is now called. The headshot grew and I learned. I learned I learned. I know that at least on one occasion Peter told me that I had a ridiculously vertical learning curve, but that's simply because I don't like to make the same mistake twice. And so I keep learning in Phnom always a student of the game. I will keep learning until the day I die, but that is kind of how I got into headshot photography. And, at that point I said. Okay I. Don't come from a place of artistic background. That's really not in my brain. An analyst I got a very methodical in technical type of brain mechanism. This is really a business. Even though there's very much in artistic element in it for me now, I know that they're going to be a lot of photographers out there that say well, you know. I'm an artist. That's okay, I'm not. Okay I. Make Artistic Decisions, but I'm a businessman. I run a business. So I have turned whatever Peter has taught me. Into a business that I contribute in my wife is a teacher in I contribute to a household and actually as of today. My daughter just graduated from high school today. And in the fall she'll be starting university of Pittsburgh so. If it weren't for headshot photography. We would be making that possible. Fast, and I can say you know with handle. Your work is fantastic. I mean on looking at you. Hide right now and the poets. The headshots adjust gorgeous beautifully world it great expressions is popping. Era Great photographer. Level I'm businessman which I don't know a lot about yet. The tell me about making that transition, so you obviously go good quickly. Did you throwing the day job? Did you stop booking headshot clients while you still working the day job, tell me about transition. Right I guess I didn't complete the question that you asked the first time, so the continuation to the story is that once I admit Peter and I kind of fell in line with his coaching platform in the way he teaches I started to improve little by little. I was already part of the two thousand, seven, two, thousand eight. I, guess you call it. The House of Cards Wall Street basically was decimated when the tire economy and I think that was global economy went into the tank and working as an analyst Gernot writing tickets in other words, you're not generating revenue for any brokerage firm that you work for your analyzing data and giving it off to somebody else who's. Who's going to generate the revenue? They pay you pretty well for, but that doesn't mean that they won't get rid of you. If your overhead and so I walked into work one day, and at least ten of us were laid off, just like that and I even enquired performance because nobody was saying anything. Absolutely not you do a great job. We just we can't keep young. There's not enough money to. Substantiate the over at. Now at that point, I probably could have gotten another position in new. York really if you can't make it in New York, you can't make it anywhere and almost actually. It was the same day Mike. Girlfriend, this is of course flashing forward. My girlfriend had said Will WanNa. Come down to Pennsylvania and see if there's anything here for you. I suppose okay. You know I'll think about it. And I had already been coming down to Pennsylvania, which is about a three and a half hour drive from New York every other weekend so I would come down to Pennsylvania on a Friday night. I'd after work. I would go back to New York on Sunday. And then I would work all week. And then another week would go by then. I would come back down again and I did that for about a year. Mind you. And when she said come on down, I said Okay I'll see what's around. I eventually ended up taking a position at a bank for a short while, and I had done enough for them. It was time for me to part ways with them, and my business had already ramped up. And so I said this is a good opportunity for me to dive into what I really enjoy doing following the passion. and kind of escaping the banking and brokerage world the it's not to say that it's a bad place to be banking and brokerage really did support me in my lifestyle for quite some time. But it was time to pursue a different challenge in something that I really was passionate about instill out, and so the transition was thus. I did not just walked out of. Wall Street one day and pick up a cameron start. Again from scratch. Businesses just generated overnight. You don't just open your doors. Hang A shingle out on the lawn and say I'm open for business and people walk in. It's not like you have to put a lot of time and effort into it, and basically establishing a business in an area that you're unfamiliar with even harder not only did my demographic shrink. The mindset has changed as well and on top of that. People don't know who you are, and if you're not from the area originally. You're not. Part of the in crowd. They won't even think twice before they just turn their back on you, so it's taken some time for me to ingrain in ingratiate myself in two years and make some friends become friendly with other business owners, a network with people, and that takes a lot of time, so hold onto to any position that you have until you ramp up business, and then you can transition. You may be miserable in the process, but It's a wiser decision, thank. I agree I agree with that. So those first clients were they coming from the different business associations like being group annual networking or from your professional life in the banking industry. Like where did you get these folks clots from? So? Yes, some of my first clients for from my previous professional career that was back in New York, but when I open shop in Lancaster I actually turned to thumb tack I. Don't Know If you're familiar with tack, but it's kind of a sourcing website where you can find all sorts of different professionals and so i. don't know if they're other. It's kind of like be linked in pro finder. I don't know if that's the might be familiar to you. Run of her thumb tack but I think we have it here. basically eve. Put in a bid for a job saying this what you're willing to do for thumb. Thumb tack takes a few dollars or credits as they call them, and so I basically developed a name for myself doing that, plus I put my name out through facebook groups and started to work with some of the local air quotes here models just trying to develop a portfolio as certainly open. My door's to friends and families develop portfolio I just want the people to experience the work. And even though the work was at a very different level than it is now, the experience still holds true. They had a great time and they were able to give me what I really wanted. which was social proof? Right cut gone. So. Let's fast forward to today or recent times and I can see on your website. You know your pricing clear. There's seventy dollars put image plaza. Two Hundred Ninety five villa session fe. Had, you come to those numbers? So like I had mentioned earlier in the conversation. I believe there's a dollar figure attached to what it is that I would like to make each year. Just like if I were working any other nine to five type of job, how much would I expect company Xyz pay for my services, so there's a dollar figure attached to that. We'll call it salary for whatever whatever good that is the we'll call that salary on top of which I have overhead. I run a studio I have a lease on the studio space I have electricity bills. I have Internet. I have this. I have that when I stack all of those numbers together, I have all of my operating expenses am when I think about all those operating expenses at the end of the day I need for my net operating income to be the in the black I. Don't WanNa. See A red number. And, if that numbers in the black and I'm still able to pay myself that salary. Well. That's kind of a really big deal, but the only way that I can substantiate. Those operating expenses if I offset them with revenue, and so the revenue part comes into how many sessions? At the prices that I have chosen. Can I do have I done. What is the pattern? You know how many sessions have I done over the last quarter last six months last year? What is the season analogy of it all? Right, these are key important metrics. That I'm looking at when I analyze my financials to create a budget for myself at the beginning of the year. And so when I think about what people have paid in, what are they willing to pay? That's kind of how I'm getting my numbers at this point in mind you. Those numbers tend to go up I've not been in a situation where my rates go down. Now. That's not to say that they won't. Right you have to kind of ebb and flow with the market. In I've always believed as a principle of economics, something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for. Okay and that's the truth in. You know if you consider. Photographers New, York City. For a shot, it's not uncomfortable for a session fee to be a thousand or fifteen hundred dollars for a session. Never mind the image. Right maybe one hundred dollars per image. That's very normal down here I think around three hundred dollar session fees pretty pretty good price for the value. Sure let me come back to your individual process in just a second so on the same page as you. Let's say you, WanNa have a salary. Let's call it a salary of seventy thousand US dollars. You've got to take into account tax plus your overheads let's. Let's say that comes to nine hundred and thirty thousand that the revenue you need to bring in to kind Yo-, seventy thousand dollars salary. Is that what was saying? That's correct? If I bring in one hundred thirty thousand dollars based on your figures than I have essentially broken, even in other words I've offset all of my expenses salary, being part of those expenses, and now my net operating income is actually zero. In other words, the business actually has not collected money, but I've been paid and the expenses have been paid I. You'll salary is not a prophet. No! No, no, no I. Don't consider it that way at all. Remember much like everybody else I have bills. I have family to take care of I've got to put food on the table and now I've got kids going to college. That's a big deal in that requires money, and so the way I look at what I'm doing, and perhaps not for tax purposes per. Per Se, but I'm still an employee of my own business and I must be compensated for the work I do okay, so let's say at the moment is salary is seventy thousand by one of your kids going to college and I think that's the only time and you know the salary then you have. A couple of choices are bringing more clients or up the pricing. Correct or there's a third option which very few people actually talked about. It is producing your overhead. Guy If. That's possible correct, and then there are ways you can be strategic about things and one example I always bring up with some of my clients, and certainly with headshot crew members as take a look at studio, for instance, which is always going to be one of your largest expenses, your studio leaks. Real estate is not cheap, and we're not saying that you've purchased were just saying leasing it, but that's always going to be one of your largest expenses well. If you're only doing, let's say hypothetically. Of course. Two sessions per month does a really pay to lease that studio when you can just rent the space for a couple of hours each month, or whatever have you however that structure the probably save yourself a whole lot of money doing so maybe a shooting out of your house I know some people have An objection to doing that I was one of those people I did not want to have a studio in my own home, because at the time I had young kids. I don't really want to have strangers in my home with young kids so I understand, but there are options you can rent. A studio can go into a shared studio arrangement with other photographers. You could of course shoot out of your home. There are ways around it, so if you are creative in strategic, you can probably reduce your expenses greater than you thank. Our. Let me take you back then to that would prophet, so we actually striving to make a profit, or are we striving to make a good salary as headshot photographer? When I think of profit I think of net operating income and I think of cash cash is always king, because directly beneath net operating income are things like amortization depreciation tax expenses all the below the line fence. Sorry Rich hangups, a net operating income. That's the seventy thousand dollars a year throughout the salaries it. No, no, so if we go back to the seventy thousand dollars for you throughout. A think he changed it to eighties. Whatever have you? You've got salary? And then you've got your overhead. So, we're going to bring both of those numbers together, and that's your total operating expenses tax included in that operating expenses that depends on the tax that you're talking about. Are you talking about your income tax? Yes, okay. No, because that comes off the seventy or eighty. Right because the way taxes work here in the United States that might business itself does not pay income tax, but because I am a sole proprietor in the way I file my taxes that salary or I should say all of the numbers. All of my figures from my business flow through my personal income tax, so it becomes personal income, so I would be taxed on the salary I actually bring home. Yes, that'd be the similar that it'd be the same for a stranding photographers well that operating as assault tried. Right so once you have all of your total expenses. then. You have your total revenue and they offset each other. Guy That's your net operating income. RADICI guy all right so in other words that would be total revenue. Right, that's correct. Okay, got it I. Come on the sites that you go back to your prophet right. Think of that Prophet right so when you consider your net operating income and all of the below the line things at the end of the days cash. How much has your business earned right? What is still in the bank account at the end of the day? Records is cash. Now, I've always been a believer in this very point and I don't think anything will ever actually change my mind, but one of the biggest key performance indicators for business is. How much cash do you have on hand? How healthy is Your Business? What your liquidity? Right because at the end of the day, and this is just all cards on the table Andrew. I have not been in my studio for a little more than two months because I could not function due the covid nineteen pandemic if my business had no cash and I had not paid myself appropriately. Probably would not have been able to whether that storm I've asked for no aid from the government because I had this covered and I figured if they already had plenty of claimants for that money that needed it more than I did. Let them take the money. But. I was able to stay alive because my business was healthy, so it's a very big. Of Healthier businesses cash cash like I, said that cash that's over and above your salary plus your expenses. So, your salary becomes an expense for your business. Your salary is inexpensive your business, so if you add your salary and your electric bill in your insurance bill in your studio lease etcetera, those are all expenses. Okay if I have ten sessions in a month, hypothetically and I've got the three hundred dollars session fee plus the perimeter fee. All of the monies that collect from those sessions those are revenue and net revenue will offset all of the overhead including salary. That is how we get to net operating income right I. Let's ran these because let's say at total expenses. Including salary is one hundred and fifty thousand. For ballpark figure. You saying then for the business to be profitable, we would need to have a higher revenue than one hundred and fifty thousand dollars coming into the BS. That's correct, right that is correct. That's the pop that is cash. That sits in the bank or wherever it is, so you can leave up that in the case of a pandemic for example right and you could be strategic about how you deal with that cash right in some cases, it could be advisable to establish what I call a rainy day, fund or a reserve, right? Right because at the end of the day, Andrew Stuff always happens, and I'd rather play it safe than sorry, so you could take a portion of whatever's left in the bank after all of your expenses repaid including your salary, and you could put it into a savings type of fund build that up a nice reserve, but remember part of your expenses could be establishing that fund for contributing to that fund. It could be contributing to your retirement funds. It could be contributing to all sorts of different disbursements, so you could easily lumped. In with all of your expenses and just kind of make it a very normal payment erotic So in your experience when you go into help, other photographers you them operating businesses like this looking at these numbers these why? Typically No. Expected. So what I have always found when it comes to photographers, and this is not a slight, it's simply that photographers artists in general don't always have their eyes on the money and I know this is a very broad stroke, very broad brush, almost stereotypical generalized, but artists are great business people. They're not normally thinking of the numbers, and so I don't like to be in a position of my income goes up. Up One month and it goes down the next month and we're in this camel hump kind of year I like to be very strategic about how might quarters my months and my years play out because I believe in having a sustainable business. If your income goes up, it goes down and it goes up and goes down. You have no idea what's going to happen. How can you possibly plan and budget accordingly? Yeah, so, what then do you suggest the photographer does? Let's say walk into help of it's over. And listen to the way they running the business, and that's just not their advertising. They're getting shoots in getting what they can from the clients as five siles concerned, but there's no structure to it is the first thing to look at what they wanna be taking home at the end of the day, or will look at the expenses i. what do we look at first to build a successful business? The first thing that I would do, and it may be counterintuitive some other approaches, but the first thing that I do is i. sit down and line item all the expenses I. Because the truth is. You can't understand the expenses without understanding the income. But there are things you can do about the income. There's sales and marketing there. Working on Seo their various avenues right there, plenty of suggestions on how to get out there and do that kind of thing, and if memory serves you had mike shocked from three one two elements? Yeah, headshot, HOT SAUCE! He's a fantastic resource. He's actually worked with as done a fantastic job and I literally triple my income because of his knowledge, he and Mike sent Sony so sales and marketing is a different avenue, so you need that kind of help. They're probably the guys, but when we're talking about expenses, I would probably go down each one of those in. Say what's necessary. There's an old story about US Sandy Weill and a Jamie diamond. Are you familiar with I'm not okay. Sandy Weill used to be the chief executive officer of Citigroup. In fact, he formed Citigroup and Jamie diamond at one point was his right hand man in at a time that they worked I believe that American. Express believe that's the place, but the story goes that when Sandy Weill walked into American Express. There was only so much that he could actually do with the income. So he line item than in chopped expenses wherever it could any turned a family business into a profitable one. By just realigning the expense streams in the income streets. So I do take sort of an approach to every business that way. Look at the expenses. What's necessary? What's not? WHAT'S A frivolous expense? What do you need? In. Why buy something if you don't needed if you can't afford it? Right so the numbers have to add up truthfully you cannot look at the entire picture without looking at both income and expenses, but expenses at where I start, then we can talk about the income. I let me ask you because you said you gotta look at what's necessary. Premium members photo Biz exposed. Photography business strategies promised every. If wants to get in touch with you. What's the best way to do that? Well my website, certainly the most convenient way that's www dot, Richard Wayne dot com. Dutch Richard W. A. I n. e. dot com, or they can email me at Info at Richard Wayne. DOT, com, they can send me smoke signals. They can find me on social media. I'm on instagram. It's at Richard Wayne on facebook Richard Wings. And testing I'm pretty much on all the social platforms pretty easy to find, but if you just go to my website, get everything right there. Pen testing. All links old is in China. It's to accompany this. Interview and look Richard. It's been a real pleasure. It's been fun to talk numbers and get a better idea of what we should be looking at without I'm businesses and it has been enlightening, so thank you so much. Oh It's my pleasure introduce. Thank you for having me I. Certainly Hope the information was helpful, and though complicated and I certainly don't shed a little light on stuff. At what do is once, these guys live. I'll get you added into member facebook group, and you'll have a few extra question thrown out by members. That'll be. Yeah absolutely I look forward to engaging the conversation. Enjoy that interview with Richard as much as I did Richard? If you're listening, thank you again for coming on sharing everything. You did I learn a ton. I'm sure the listeners. From what you had to share as well so again. Thank you so much for you. The listener our hope I'm right in saying that if there was a particular, take away something that reaches shared that used. Yes, that makes so much sense I'm going to be applying that to my business. I would love to hear about it on our Richard. Would as well if you're happy to share your thoughts on today's episode, today's interview leave a comment comment area, and you can find them this week. At photocopies x DOT COM forward slash three seven to the comments area. Area or at the very bottom of that page, and above the comments area find examples of Richard's beautiful work like he's work is fantastic, also find links to anything and everything. The Richard mentioned in the interview and there was a ton. It's all there in that one spot, and of course, if you are a premium member, I'll adding Richard into the members facebook group, so you can have access to him the soup easily, so if you have a follow up question something you wish that I asked that I didn't. You can hit Richard up inside the group. Photo Biz exposed? Interviews with photographers to help you build a better photography business. Just, before we close today's episode I just wanted to remind you that if you are interested in getting transcripts from the interviews whether it's the free podcast. Episode if you're afraid of all the premium version of the episodes, transcripts now available for every interview moving forward on no some people love to read an excess the transcripts particularly I have time to listen to a full interview. Maybe they WANNA scan. Certain topics will go back and find something specific that the guests was talking about so those transcripts are there and available to you. They generally pop up a day or two interviews live, so he can get all those sorted. The other quick thing I wanted to mention was the daily blog. Challenge has finished the last one, and I'm having a little break before kick off the next month on September seventh, but you can register now. The early bird registrations are open for that head over to dilate VLOGGER CHALLENGE DOT COM to pray registered or registered for the next challenge, and then I'll keep you updated Vira. Mao once we're ready to go, and just so you are aware. Challenge is all about getting more comfortable being yourself on video, but we take a distinct business approach so during the challenge in particularly in the final week you'll be sending email replies decline choirs using video. You'll be recording video testimonials for businesses or service providers that you WANNA be networking with to build your business. We're going to be recording a video that you can use rate targeting visitors to your website. I'm going to show you how to set that up. In addition to all that business type stuff, there's fan prompts you get to know each other inside the group. You practice your. Your videos every single day, and all you really need is if the twenty minutes a day to do the challenge. It really is a life changing experience. They us so much fun, and it's really really sad. When the challenges finished because I feel like and other other challenges feel the same way. We've made a whole new group of friends. Every time we go through because we see each other every single day throughout the challenge, we get to see where where each other leaves. What we do in aspect time where we hang out in the weekends. Sometimes, we made each other families. Pets. And it's a real lot of fun so daily challenge. If you'd like to improve how you are on video, even just get more comfortable, being yourself and love to see you on the next challenge if that interest you. Already that he's going to wrap up this episode of the podcast. Our hope you have a fantastic week ahead. Look forward to chatting to you. That's it from the talking now. If you enjoyed this episode. SHOWPIECE DOT COM join the conversation comment and share your thoughts on the interview with Andrew and today's special guest.

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Ep. 106: Oliver (feat. Oliver Stone)

RUMBLE with MICHAEL MOORE

54:31 min | 8 months ago

Ep. 106: Oliver (feat. Oliver Stone)

"This podcast was created using anchor. Anchor is the free podcast platform that allows you or anyone to setup and start your own podcast for you charge. So the your voice is heard. Is because they believe in the democratization of audio, pure and simple. That's why I use their platform. Anchor. DOT FM or the anchor APP will get you there. Stray A. Strange. Faces. Young. Women seeing. One your own. Streets. down. Stray. Basis. I'm Michael. And thank you for tuning in. My guest today. Is the incredible film director. The man who gave us. Platoon. Wall. Street on the fourth of July Salvador. So, many films that he wrote directed, and before that he wrote scarface. And and other. So but I'm really honored to have him here today and I want to welcome you Oliver. Stone. Thank you so much for being real. Well, thank you. Michael, I'm really looking forward to talking to you. The year is Nineteen eighty-nine. and. I have just made my first film I'm I'm nobody and I made film called Roger and me. And in that same year, you made born on the fourth of July. And eventually In, early. Nineteen Ninety where the Oscars for that year. So I, finally got to meet you. And we got to talking and. Subject around to you know did I think the next film would be a documentary era? I WANNA make. Narrative films, fiction zones whatever and use it while. I'm. Actually I'm thinking my next door right now out on the. Scenes. We're doing our out on the beach in Santa, Monica. He said, why don't you? Why don't you come on out? and. In Hang Out, I'll show you. You can see because I turned into a real film set before real and so. I was the next day or two or whatever I went out there. And you set me up in a in a chair and every now, and then you would Tell me what's going on. While you were doing things that you're doing all. It was so fascinating I. Literally was like a kid in the candy shop. And and I stayed with you that whole night. Sure. You probably don't remember which night this is, but it was a night where. You were filming. I think Donald Trump on a balcony second-story central house, and there was a large mood. Big Moonlight. and. It wasn't a Moonie. Just a cardboard thing that you see it in the movies that looks like the moon is way up there in the sky. Order. Million Miles away. To some dude. Holding a thing that was lit with an orange light to make it look like it was. It was the moon. But. anyways, I really appreciated that I I was nobody. It got me inspired of course I. Didn't I didn't I eventually made a narrative film, but it it was just. So people would say to me. So we're we're film school. Did you go July? So I went to the Oliver Stone Santa, Monica of films. On. The beach. That So, long time since then it film moments different than real life. So a low, it seems like a long time ago. When you refer to fill moment, it comes back to me right away. It's like I'm in that moment still. I, remember vividly. The early days of the shoot because I was young in the film doors and. The scene at the at the at the seashore when he dances to the moon, and then he goes up to the rooftop. Yeah. Very haunting stuff. It's true. It was a fake moon, but it worked. Really. But I wanNA talk to you, and you've got a book out. You find. You've written a memoir essentially. Yeah. It's an amazing book and it. It's called chasing the light and there are so many stories in here about your filmmaking career in about how you got into I just WANNA. That back from Vietnam. You say in the book about a year afterwards, you're trying to track what to do go to. College or whatever, and and a friend of yours. says. Go Go and. Get a film degree. And use. The film is a thing and I'm paraphrasing here in your friends is, yes. You can get a degree by just watching movies all day. Just go and you thought, wow, that's a degree. 'cause you love going to the movies. You Talk About How your dad took you to the movies when you were kid, you saw Hansa quarry within an obvious combs or whatever you grew up in New York City. So you're. You know ton of movie theaters, everywhere, all kinds of theaters. and. So you went to Nyu and applied. To to. Get what I, think you imply in the book is fairly easy degree to get a film degree. With. No idea really what that meant and and and you're being taught. By some incredible. Teachers and professors intellectuals about movies and come whatever. But also one of your teachers was a believed twenty. Old Martin Scorsese. Yes. At I. Just, take us from there and tell us. Exactly. I grew up a Manhattan and my parents were well to do and I, they were very strong. But they were not fit for each other was from mom mom was from France. My father was a soldier Lieutenant Colonel in World War Two, he picked her up on the street and he brought her back to the United States. She broke off her engagement with another young, another man, he was about fifteen years older and. It was a whirlwind romance sort of like a card gable of thing and I grew up in the illusion for fifteen years. They were met. They were in love with each other and I had it. It was a magical childhood because I had two cultures, two languages. and. they seemed very happy together. But how wrong I was you know? They shipped me off to boarding school. Perhaps, they knew something more than I did. They knew I shouldn't be around I was the only child too. So it makes it worse. So it's a small family and. They they. They divorced. They separated. There was an ugly story, but you know my mother had a love for the first time in my father had turned out. Had many lovers at many women since World War Two, it was a Promiscuous generation in many ways. So I think John Updike, hit that note in rabbit. Rabbit series he kind of. The Madness of Connecticut suburban life people were the sixties very liberating. How unfortunately I was shocked I just didn't know this was going on and. And he told my dad told me all this on the phone because he he should have come down and see me. But you don't everybody was very upset. Mother was. Deeply upset because she'd been locked out of the house. Her credit cards taken away. She'd spent a lot of money. He had made money. He was well to do, but he he earned an income and every year you know. She. She spent too much and he was in debt and that shocked me too so. You know he's one hundred thousand dollars in debt in nineteen sixty. Two. Three right was a big number and he never got out of that debt the rest of his life, which is why I wrote about as a victim in the sense of new capitalistic wall. Street that didn't exist before and mom went off into her own world for a while and. I needed her but I just I couldn't. I couldn't forgive rice. That one thing leads to another. There were two two I went to Vietnam twice. Actually I had to get away I dropped out of Yale University and went to Vietnam. and. taught school there for to teach. You didn't go there. sounded. A year off from college. They didn't. They had that. Allowed me to do it. No. Those those days. It was not a program like it's become. And I changed completely I. Mean. It was another world out there. Another World Asia opened my eyes to so much death so much volumes, people, the smells sense. The Sexuality Anyway Often Came, back, went to the merchant marine. I was at wiper in the merchant ivory traveled all over these countries there came back. World a novel about I was was a writer from my earliest days, and that's my basis is a writer director. I used to write my father used to pay me money twenty, five cents in the fifties to write little stories every week for him. The twenty, five cents a long way in those days and I buy a classic comic I. Don't know if you're ever know those were great. Jeremy Versions of great novels. Was My sense of literature and. So writing was sort of ingrained in me by him, but I didn't I only did it for the money that was the only reason and when I finally. went to film school I. Kind Of. You have to say that I came back from Vietnam, the same. I'll put it this way I went back to Vietnam. I came back growth went back as a soldier. You. Enlist came back wrote a book that won't became was finally published in Nineteen, ninety seven was called trials night dream, and in it, I was pretty wild story nineteen year. Old Kid. Pretentious. It was was huge. It was feverish. Had A lot of. For me it was like a Rambeau kind of poem but. It was rejected at the time and Disappointed feeling like an ego maniac and narcissists I just. Changed My name back to my birth name and I went to the army with the idea I was suicidal. I was dark very dark and I thought you know listen I can't. I don't have the guts to kill myself. I really don't. But. You know I'm GonNA throw my my destiny to the gods and see if. If they want me. They'll take me That was my idea, and I, went through the Vietnam experience resigned. To whatever happened didn't complain about it. was you know it was what was going to happen. I? had a classical education. That way I was, you know I didn't. Couldn't relate to my generation in many ways. I mean George. Bush was at Yale University with me when I was there as a freshman. He would be typical of the privileged background that allows him to skip the draft and lie and do all the things he did. So as bill. Clinton. So as Donald, trump. They all come from the same. It's the Rod of my generation. But Air, they got the power I ended up over there and it was quite a war like I saw a lot of action. And I came back. fucked up completely alien. Truly alienated and not even civilized in the way that New York City was was weird to me. It was like everyone who's running around trying to make a buck a very prosperous time the late sixties. And people were really hustling It was a new kind of energy. And inflation was huge too because. Everything. Went up in price and I didn't belong and I met a woman. Thank God, a woman who tamed me kind of brought me back to civilisation became twice and during that time I? After a year I've felt able to go back to school and I went to this as I. As you told, the story went back to film school because it interested me I love movies. But I didn't have any connections to them But it's funny when I went to Nyu. One of the things I remember is I kept going to screenwriting glass and it was empty it. The the other students were all loving the alternative Kadar and drew. And Fellini. They all thought you know. We'll go to the set it. Will it there? Well. That kind of doesn't work. It's beautiful if you are genius. Usually you needed a developed scripts. So I stay with a writing at the same time in developed. An eye based. On what I've seen, Vietnam, which is to be visceral check if there was a savagery early on in my writing and in my. In My individualization in films criticized a lot for it but as being. A right wing. Fascist. A violent violence, loving exploit exploitation movies, I kind of thing. Mardi was a teacher and he was one of, but he was at that. He was just Marty wasn't Martin was the long hair right? Shoulders. He was doing who's that knocking at my door I believe and he was everyone loved his class because it was just full of energy. He he loved films like a priest loves the church. You know he's leading the diary of a country priest about sums a month, but he was very, he was fun and intense. And one day I made this short film of twelve minutes long. It was one of my projects. About a Vietnam veteran in New York and we used to sit around the class. Or had this experience we have. It was like the Chinese Cultural Revolution people would criticize you. So you make a film, you could put it up there and the other students tear you apart. It's cannibalism. and. I was waiting for the kids to the other kids to destroy the film east. Finished, he said. That's filmmaker to the class about you. That's. Why because it's personal because he cares you feel that there's somebody behind the film who cares what he's doing. He's telling the story that's close to him, and I remember those words because that was really important to him as it was in his own work. I didn't have the same background at that point but. I only knew that I'd been through this great upbringing. I was seeing the savagery over there and just didn't make sense and still put it all together. Right and That was my diploma in effect I. Mean I did another year there and it was a lot of things and I got an it'll be out of there. I drove a cab. I was a production assistant on several films including a porno. I did anything. I could eventually ended advertising business always writing cribs writing scripts in this period never stopped head to scripts a year and they were all rejected. About twelve. Ten twelve screw screenplays and treatments. I wrote it just a few years to get recognized. I wrote a tune in seventy six. That was recognized finally as as a as a at my name known around a little bit but nobody there was nobody wanted to make the movie it was. Of course. A lousy experience? It was a bummer. So forth, and so on and I had to sit through all of this. Year's of the Bullshit I. Mean Ten more years I? Mean I had to live through Rambeau to live through. Sylvester stallone goes back to Vietnam to get the prisoners. We have our to get POW's and. Our hands tied behind our back kind of political reasoning. I had to sit through Chuck Norris really dumb films, but made a lot of money missing in action. So, this is all heartbreaking, but there was no way. They turned me down three times. I almost made the movie. The second time was heartbreaking and I believe and I write about it in the book it was it was a dino arenas was gonNA put up three million bucks only wanted was guaranteed from MGM that they'd put up three million distribution on it to make deal together. And, they wouldn't do it and it dawned on me that. Henry Kissinger and Alliens Alexander Haig you remember him Secretary Mad Rabid Secretary of state under Reagan. I'm in charge here on the board of directors and. A. You know. You never know the reasons why. But all of a sudden they turned on Dino I mean they made every movie with Dino Dino Video Revolution was happening at that time. Dino is producing blue velvet, remember which for the same amount of money. But the and that was pretty risque, but they did that. But they wouldn't do platoon that was aggravating audited finally. Get Mate. Well. An Englishman made it no American. Studio you. No American independent would touch it. Is, John Daly. Your daily is the hero of my journey at that point because he finance both platoon and Salvador back to back, he asked me which Oliver which one do you WanNa do Salvador Platoon I was stunned nobody asked that question in our business. Low, budget affairs and I said. Without Salvador because I figured that platoon would go down the toilet. If I said FLA tune, you'll be a third time and I couldn't take my heart would be broken. Seeded wobble or in Salvador was a learning experience beyond measure. Amina it was. It was going through hell to make that. It was so complicated to call off a big picture with. Ninety three speaking Bart's two countries. To cultures. Massacres horse charge tanks. And you had to work with James Woods and Jim. Belushi. Of course, woods Is. Is. James. He was great. He got an Oscar nomination. We were any upgraded. He was a great actor. Yes. He at each other's throats during the whole shooting because he was a star and I was a nobody. But anyway. It was ed both of them did an incredible job. In that film but the film. So there was nothing like it over twenty mile that we what we know of as a war move. This you're on the edge of your seat. You're, you're watching this, you're an American watching it. So you know you see. The result of our tax dollars at work. Yeah. In Mung, other things, you know America backed in Central America and wherever in the world always backs back desk quads and the killers. I don't know why. But they always find a reason. Then they were fighting. They thought they mister Reagan said, we were fighting communists who are going cross the Rio Grande it I. Remember that one that was such nonsense. We were fighting peasants, reformers, trade unionists. Teachers I mean those are the people got your and priests to they killed the Archbishop of Salvador. MIRA. Amazement h crime that they buried. ooh Awful. Elia the nuns, the American. Nuns nuns and the lay worker. Jeannie Donovan. So my friend Richard Boyle who was a journalist who'd been down there. Had written a little story. I. Saw that story in the back seat of his broken down car and I read it and I said, this is not. This is the by this time I've been dropped out of the business I'd done Scott, I'd written scarface, you're the Dragon Midnight Express and. None of this, your they were successful, but none of them had done me much. Certainly Year scarface was not a at the time. Didn't do me much good. So I was sort of out of the business I start. I. I decided to start over I. put my own mortgage money in I. Put everything I could into getting that Salvador done an thank God daily came in because I would have gone up busts and never completed, but I was saved by an Englishman because as I say, no American students. Even when it was finished film, they turned off the film in the Middle One of the companies. It was depressing and I kept thinking it's political but I, I wasn't I mean Jim Thinking is because. The film had truly revolutionary sympathies, but you wouldn't. You can get away with a in the office and be hard to get an American to. I wanted to amount my model was upon which go move me very much loved. But nobody has daryl ZANUCK. Himself said, it was not that successful when an open I, heard I learned the lesson the hard way. You make a film about, Latin. America. Central America, very little chance of being successful for some reason inspired me and you know. That it is possible to make a movie that is political. It's it's really about telling a good story to. That people will listen to the politics. If you're able to tell a good story, if you make a good movie, you make a great movie which you know. If people were to ask me what your favorite Oliver Stone Film I think eight times out of ten on. I'm asked that question I would say salvador. Great is that okay to say that are you? Take whatever you got. But I mean there's so many great wants to choose from. But I just think that that in that moment it moves me it's a few years before going to make my first film, but I really started think about the power film. and. And by telling a good story. You can move people in that way, and you've done that many times over just the fact that you take on. How do you pitch a film by trying make wall? Street, you are. Now you've had. Some, great success at that time. But but still. The. What's the? What's the story line here? capitalism? It's like. You Act you're right. There was very few business movies being made. My Mom, my model for that was my father who had been in Wall Street. and. film called Executive Suite by Wise Nineteen fifty seven. William Holden was in it. So very good business film. It's not the back door the back back story on on corporations. I loved that job as well as Frank Campers movie with Walter Houston Nineteen, thirty two American madness. got to see that one. If you want never seen that American ends, it'd be easy in the depression after the bankers. But CAPRA's spins it where Walter Houston is. One is one of the good bankers when he's being the most pressured by his depositors to get their money back, he actually pays them off. He pays depositors off and he starts to go bust at. The last second, you know, CAPRA esque ending story. Wall Street nobody was interested either but I had the clout with platoon in the Oscar. I had the clout to actually go to Fox? And they were competing against Warner. Bros, and that's amazing. They get percival studios at what you and they competing. So I got. A lot of money to me. I. Got Seventeen eighteen million dollars to make this movie in New York, which I'd never had dreamed of off. It was my first studio fill and it actually worked all obeyed. I don't think that very dealer was happy with the movie or Rupert Murdoch who owns the studio began just owns a spot studio. I don't think. I know dealer didn't like it but another story, I would like to say one thing that. On the Salvador's the reason it was saved. Its reputation was to us because made platoon right after it and to tuned Adam had a life of its own time that Vietnam would come around in a realistic way to the American people, and that film took off of so unique critics nothing it opened on. A on a Friday, was an in New York. Around the block of veterans, all mostly veterans they came in silently they sat down. For Show twelve, o'clock noon whenever. Silence the whole movie and then ends and. There was silence in the they were just sitting there. stunned. Many. Of them weeping. Amazing experience to see that. The. First two weeks was mostly veterans and then women started to come and. Expanded it if film ran for. Four or five months. And all over the World Michael Not. Just not just America. Really did great business everywhere. That, rarely happens you get good reviews. You, get the Oscar new. Do good businesses really am as you know, is a Trifecta, and you can't do. I knew then even at the eight and I was forty years old like finally achieve a dream I knew then. It just doesn't get better when they when you realize that I, dream. And When you do realize it, we went does happen to you. What then what happened with you? How did you take? How did you decide to use this intially? Thinking of you, I mean, you get opened the Stagey Nassir get booed. Yes what was the fifth night of the Iraq War I. Just could not just say nothing. On The right thing, but people didn't understand the at the time. Did Not like it. Yeah. Around. Booed off the stage when you went up to get your ask, no, no, no Iris moderate and I still did not had not develop the political feelings that you I was still learning the ropes as I said in the book I said these were. Baby steps, I'd come back from Vietnam, and I'd been influenced by my trip to Salvador Sienese countries, and I saw the same stuff I saw in in Vietnam as a teacher. Actually in sixty five, I saw the army coming into Honduras I the Gaba. Into removing in around, Nicaragua people forget Mr Reagan was really planning an attack on the Nicaraguan Revolutionary Government with owning the contras. We mind their harbors. We the Iran Contra scandal is perhaps the most shocking scandal ever been discovered in America history in my opinion because Reagan was selling weapons to Iran, which was illegal and taking the money. He died. He he he split it up, gave half of it to the CONTRAS is all. It was an ugly story never came out in its fullest and George. Bush the father was was D- definitely involved and he got off like he got off Scot free as did Reagan, it was another one of these American scandals you get buried. Yet buried by the powers that be and what's her name from the Washington. Post Katharine Graham she. She was part of that. She she buried it. What she said at the time she because they wanNA. Get Watergate it come from the post had a lot of that comes. In. We America. Can't. Afford another Watergate. Walk. Not Hurt. It's not her opinion. It's not her right to exercise judgment on what's the story and what's not a story. That's the problem with immediate in our country they they're they're become. Judges to. Of what's good and what's not good for the American people? That was a real missed opportunity but. South is Salvador was got. A reputation when after platoon came out and made the Oscar nomination. So I was up against myself the same night. On screenplay and Jimmy Woods was his performance was great and he got nominated to. and. Bert, incredible performance, he was. So nervous, and so so mad, he was mad and he was like crazy too. I like that he a lot of life along. Yeah. It is politics ended up being the opposite is something else? That happened. I, don't hold it against person. I mean I can get along with anybody. If. They're interesting. Certainly Jimmy. Interesting right right. So. So you mentioned your Dad and making Wall Street in the book you talk about. how capitalism shoot him up and spit him out your Dad's so your dad, board for Schliemann. Aidan stone to not this. He's not the founding stone, but he works for them Georgia. He got his company. He worked for got bought out by Sandy. Weill now. Sandy Weill the Avatar of a new Wall Street. Any wild. You know the name, your horse. Is. Apparently. He's a great guy and all that. But. He started? To merge stockbrokerage firms, with travel companies, insurance companies he the whole kit you could buy in one package. Right? It was his idea and basically it was one of those guys who. Cut who the the separation between Stockbroking, and making it had been illegal or. Fifty Plus Years Rubin and Clinton, they opened the damn nobody today. My family, my father had started in Wall Street. He come out of college in the depression and couldn't get a job practically was floor Walker worked his way of through wall. Street. Wiley and in the world in the army, he was in financial affairs under Eisenhower Staff and Harris. Way Met my mother and in Berlin. He worked very hard. Honest. Man. died in the wool Republicans Smart Republican. And at the end of his life, the divorce killed them and he was in debt. For the rest of his life practically. Finally paid it off, but he was it was not. As, high finally ended it off when he's like a prisoner in jail for the. After twenty years i. felt sorry for him. That way him and I when I came back on Vietnam, we couldn't agree I. I been in combat. He'd never seen combat. He didn't understand. I was also crazy I mean I was. Smoking Dope I had long hair talking like a black man I was everything. He you know he couldn't stand it and we have many clashes in winter I gave him some lsd putting this drake of so one of the change his thinking so. They work. No, but it was a, it was a hell of a trip. He had a sex trip. was at a party. So there was fourteen, Thirteen, twelve eleven, other beautiful there and I. He couldn't pick me out. He didn't know I did it. But I put it in. Scotch. While we're playing chess game. No. He never got back on his feet. He was always struggling. To the day died. It was always tough for him. He got cut out from the Wall Street thing eventually and he died. Too. Young. I mean it was part of that time, but he died before unfortunately before Salvador was just before it was made and he never saw the working only. So Midnight Express. So he kind of felt that I'd be. Okay. So neither your mother, your father really saw. What became of all the films that you may. My Mother did. Imam. Did she was very proud and we reconciled I, didn't blame her anymore. The divorce I understood the reasons and. The more. You understand the more you forgive each. and. were. No longer strange from your mom. I came very close to her in the last. Twenty years, thirty years, relief I did take care of her till because my father didn't leave enough insurance. It's It was. You ask about. My father's legacy in about capitalism. Definitely He. He he got chewed up on the thing. Is She they cut the commissions. They did everything. It was, it was a world where the Geckos came in and bought a lot of companies and stripped them of assets. In my father's Day. First of all, they never talked about money that way he was always. If you're rich. You've never boasted about it and it's not like the vulgar times were in with Donald Trump celebrating his wealth or the TV shows and all that stuff Americans are. Joined, Colin Wealth Right I. Mean it seems to me since one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty s since Robin Leach Times. The seen about how many houses they have and all that stuff. It's disgusting when father hate in that kind of stuff, his world was sober and. I. Miss It. I miss that kind of respectability I. don't see it anymore. Well, right now, none of us are making movies. Movie Business Shutdown. Wound s other bad thing. because. I took. Don't you think. On. The on the other end of this post pandemic, what we do making movies. This is going to change. This is somehow I don't know what or how do you don't you get this feeling that a lot of us. We've all had a lotta time to kind of think about what we want to be doing. And get an hour, want to do it and I'm just curious. As you are one of our great masters in this art form that what your thoughts are in terms of. Of what we do with this art form host pandemic. Would you like to come out of this as a filmmaker and an working with foam? Michael my last film was Snowden. It was two, thousand, sixteen, kill myself on it and. People in the country didn't. Care about it was a very important issue. What snowden brought out to the world about this surveillance on. One or all my now, why didn't? WanNa, Watch that film. What do you think? They don't WanNa. Know it's disturbing. and. There was the documentary and they think they know the issues because of a documentary, but this is a bigger. There's a bigger issue here. It's what the United States is doing with cyber warfare and that has not been dealt with in our country I, mean our attack on Iran in the many things we do under the under covert action around the world interfering in regimes regime change, all kinds of malice destroying things in. Iran. It's It's very scary world and we always of course, blame others and we we may say they're worse. And China's seems to be the new. The new enemy we need enemies I want to encourage people to They haven't seen Oliver's series the untold history of the United. States. It was really on very powerful, all the things that you're not taught in school. Art. In this series. I'll put a link to it on my on my site here, oh thank you. I'd love to watch this and Islam Netflix's to. Good Young. They never gave it. Mainstream press never gave it any attention and we did business in spite of it was with Progressive Historians Brown. And people started watching ordinary people who just didn't have much education like I didn't in history and they just discovered things on the they didn't own a gun. So many fan letters on this It's one of my best documentary documentations to evacuate highlights my life. Mom Yeah, it should. I agree with that. Do you think as a filmmaker do do like the idea of the streamers Netflix's in the? Night with a night that I can you know businesses changed so much? From, when I came in in Nineteen, seventy, seventy S. I am not I. I can't tell you what's going to happen I. Miss Theaters because I like to see comedies like as he spectacles with people, you get a more feeling react. a stream. Are you know you can watch a comedy at home in could say what's so funny about it because no one else laugh and I'm sure that happens I think the comedy people would be very would want to have the theaters back. Very important data laughter be. Generic be congenial. A crowd helps. Same. Thing for suspense films in crowd helps. So I don't think. That's GONNA. It's doesn't make economic sense that with theater anymore. And the home screen makes things too easy. Television is. Easy for. ME. WE'RE GONNA lose our movie theaters. In a way, we'll have always some theaters, but in a way I think the the movie going tradition. The people are not going to be able to pick up on it to the degree we have. Smaller towns, some place you come from. How could they have theater? While I was I moved to a town. Like fifteen thousand people in Michigan and. And they didn't have a movie theater. Within their city limits, and so they still had this theater that had been built. One hundred years ago, just boarded up an empty and. I. Just I want to the city and I said Hey I'll restore this for you and we can have a a thin a cinnamon in town here and so i. did that it because I just did move there. I couldn't. I couldn't imagine being able to go down to the movies or something. Sorry. Just A. Great I just I just and then I, and then I did another theater of Northern Michigan. just to get. He become an heaven, the experience of seeing a movie with other people. That's the key thing. I can't imagine especially after five months of this virus. People want to get out of the house. People want to be able to people go on a date. You know what can you what you do anymore? Where can you go? That doesn't cost one hundred dollars, you can't go to a professional sports game. You can't go to a concert with Iraq star. You get all of that costs, enormous amount of money these days even going to a decent restaurant but a movie. A movie is still depending on what part of the country live in ten twelve dollars. Big Cities. It's you know fifteen to eighteen dollars but still. It's you know. It's more affordable than anything else. I can't imagine that it would die. So you see the end of civilization here. So to speak I. I sort of I. Feel. It's one of the pieces of it because I I believe. In the power of US coming together in experiencing the same thing. And whether that thing is makings cry whether it's begins laugh whether it's getting angry, we are communally and collectively experiencing it, and therefore I gotta believe some good will come out of that. Agree am I I'm. Not. Knots right. Not at all, it's what is going to happen. I don't know you get to a certain age You Big I. Guess I'm a fatalist about you know I. I can't do anything about it except my little my small contributions and. Is. It wrong for me or the public to ask you to not give up by that. Had this experience twenty, sixteen, your last the after. Was To follow. We just don't we don't want. I believed that fiction writers and filmmakers such as yourself. Great one such as yourself. Speak. I think sometimes larger truths. Then what you would get any work of nonfiction not to not to put that down. But I'm just saying that that what's the old line from Picasso about the through fiction by essentially lying you tell a greater truth. and. And so two. So we need because you're one of these truth tellers. Because of your stories you make up. Or stories that are based on historical incidents or whatever, but still your voice. that. You're still a young man and there's there's no reason that but does easy for me to say I, mean I can't say to you. You must make more movies. You have every right after the wonderful body of work that you've created to say I've retired I don't WanNa, do this anymore I want to do other things. I want to try to save the planet it's going to choke to down. I'm not kidding myself I mean I see that I by making documentaries. I can also contribute and making a film about nuclear energy and clean energy is important to the planet. And it's much as I can do now because. I thought about doing it as a as a fiction film story line making it. And having a lot of tension. is a bit like snowed in how difficult it is to put a story of this magnitude into a film box. Is Challenging thing and I just couldn't solve it. I would was someone wrote and we worked on it, but it didn't work as a movie movies have to work there too risky to big. Take too much energy. You don't WanNa Miss. It has to be a bullseye you gotTa, you gotta aim. Right. So it's not. I don't think it's possible to do some big subject matter like history like untold history, I couldn't do it as. Dance to be an episodic series. The way you did it. But. I'm saying you don't think that there's another feature film with the ethical film in You. Or there might be I don't know what I don't know what it is right now. You know. People. Send me things and. You'd love to find something. You could get your soul into but demands for me. I have to be fully into it and it's hard to to buy into some of the fiction devices we use. I see all the tricks you know. I see I. see how it's done and I admire other filmmakers for doing it. There has been some very good films recently. Never ends always good filmmakers. I like joker like parasite parasites like. Uncut Gems I. Mean Newest Films last year. Wonderful. Uncut gems. Stands. So does joker actually and that was a powerful. Yes those it was very powerful. So I've done documentaries now. and. Their. Every one of them is fascinated me because I was dealing with people who are out there. People who challenged all the conventional thinking. It's exciting documentaries I guess for you is old hat. But for me, I've only done it since two thousand, one as exciting Castro was my first subject matter. alka. WHO everybody in the US continues to hate? I don't understand why is he resisted us? You know. We don't like. Yeah. He said, no. The people who are in charge. It No, I don't. Yeah. Maybe I'm I'm the opposite here where after making all these documentaries or maybe your second Phil. Yeah I, know I need to make the the next in my second feature, narrative feature, or fiction? I've actually, I've got a actually started the process i. don't really want to say this publicly people all all this mail from people. They all know you have to keep making more documentaries but. I've been writing a screenplay or two that I think might actually. Speak? To. Those. Greater. Truths. Willingham works of fiction. I. We'll see. You're quite a provocateur in your way and you know it. Like I love the. Johnny. Went to Charlton Heston House and trying to get in. It was very funny. Yeah. You're in me where. He was great. He was a great foil for you. Yeah well, you know listen as as because you really started out loving writing. you know. You know that the the aspects of telling a good story involve. The antagonists in the protagonist in the and and the Ark of of it all it's all when I'm making I somebody asked me to write up my rules of documentary filmmaking, start royalties, thirteen rules, and number one was the first rule of making a documentary is don't make documentary make a movie. 'cause you're asking people to watch it as a movie if you don't honor. The Art form of movie if you're just there to point your finger or wag your finger. Preach preach, preach. I I don't think people go to the movies for that. They they go to church for Preaching and they or they join a political organization if they want to go to rally or protest or whatever a movie should be a movie whether it's fiction or nonfiction, and so I've always felt that way and I, think that I? Had the audience I've had over all these years because. If, they go to see my movie especially in a movie theater on a Friday night. I, it's not feel like medicine. It's it's. Funny. It's GONNA be sad. It's GonNa. Make you angry perhaps. Might, make you angry at me but but? It will evoke the things that you and I as filmmakers want to evoke want the audience to come alive and when they leave their seat and they leave the theatre, there's something that's just you know this whenever you seen a great film your. Something's rushing through you. You know I have to, I, have to go for a long walk if I walk out of the theater and I've just seen something brilliant like joker s year or parasite is I have to go for a long walk. Because it's it's effectively and it's in my bloodstream right now and You know and. I was thrill of movies. My father used to take me to the movies. He always went to the Goodwin's bridge on the river, Kwai was one of his favorites. He would come out of the theater. He said, you know kill. Did you notice that this was not logical and it led to that, and that led back to this, and then we would and I'd say I don't understand that I was very young and I. Think along those lines because he was very logically played gracious and At the end of our debate, he would always say you know, can we could have done it better? And, of course, everybody who goes to movie thinks she can do better. It seems like. What it's like everybody thinks he can. You. Mentioned this in your book that he probably planted the first seed in your head. Good movie. Yeah those talks? Why did you call the book chasing the light because it's the last shot of the day? That's the hardest. Russia I. was always in a bind. It would be four, o'clock, five, hundred the after noon, the lights going and seven. I got five shots to go. I Want Emily Five. Sean. I can't get. I, know I'm not, GonNa make. I have to decide under pressure. What are the? What do I need not what I want, what of doing the that is a key to making the end of the day work chasing the light is. Often frustrating, I got some of my best work that way, some of the best things we ever did or because of that at Treasury, you force yourself. You. Essentially have to be the editor in that moment. You're editing film and you're trying to figure out which of these five I'm only to get two or three off. So on that. I if I am, we're not gonNA. Come back to this beach. Shoot, again? Or the of the Nicorette other day you just don't have the money. So you gotTA. Make a decision. Right? Then you've got gotTa Edit your movie right down. Hongo SPA. And you're saying, it actually force you into making some of the best decision you've made in your in your filmmaking career. But. In the middle of the day, either I used every moment I could if I if the light was harsh, we'd figure out a way to shoot something. Never. We've never waste a second on a set. It's just too too fragile. You need I need a lot of shots to make a movie and. I never stopped pushing coming exhausted after I should exhausted. When he comes in. The So I know. So chasing the light is on a metaphor level is you know what it means means I'm always running down a rabbit hole. A always felt like, I, being pushed. pull. I, felt rabbit and I think when I hit platoon finally in nineteen, eighty, six at forty years old for me. That was a it was a meaningful break. It was like, yeah. Now, what are you worried me you? You achieve the dream that you wanted to do you actually game director a writer director. You made a movie. What else is sweeter. Lissouba. Taylor kisses you and gives you the Oscar. While that's who gave you, your Oscar was Elizabeth. Is the is pouring in. And of course, life goes on, but it's a whole other kind of level that you go to, and we'll talk about that. When I come on your show for the next book, hopefully will still be around yes or we can talk about your documentary to when you're finished. It'd be great. Also fishing documentary four hours long. We'd done it over the last year on the JFK case with back into the. Because the the movie created the assassination Records Review Board. That existed for five years. They did a lot of work a lot of investigating. None investigating, revealing records the records. Some of them are still hidden by trump. If you're measuring, he didn't open them all as he promised by the point is that we have enough information, reveal their that we wanted to bring it out to the public and say, this is more on the case this you don't know, and you have to be careful because it seems pretty clear that our intelligence agencies you know. Supposed to be so sacred, they had something to do with this very serious I, think that when Kennedy was killed that day I think it was there was a signal from the intelligence agencies in our country. The. Who is in control here? While while I'm looking forward to that. Tells you something that they still be companies they are supposed to be. So free speech are still worried about the Kennedy case, it just tells you a lot. Nervous about what you're GONNA say. Ya. Jeez well, yeah. But it got a copy excited I. WanNa see the spill so on. I don't have good advice to give you other than. Do you done in the past look to the Europeans? and. The Australians in the Japanese. Most of my films at least the majority of them have been funded not by Americans, but by Brits and Dutch in. Canadians. And Australians and others. That's where I've been able to have my voice heard and they don't censor me. So I. I have been able to say the things I wanted to say in my in my films without having to, you know to worry about that. I think only three of my films were from beginning to end where it was completely American money. So I've found the best way to get my film. My films out Americans is not have, American, money in IT I. Think it. Michael. Bunch. Thank you. Oliver thank you for everything that you've done. Thank you for letting me Sit there on the set of the doors. Something on their forget and. Thank you for these important important films that you've made I hope you know the world of good that you've done. A sharing these stories poems with. Much, appreciated. Good luck with the book. Chasing the light everybody. Is Oliver Stone's a great memoir. And eager to hear all the stories from a scarface to platoon. It's it's an amazing midnight express too. In that expresses in their. Hand what's the? What's the other one after scarface? Another big one that people probably aren't bragging. Another one you wrote. Eight million ways to die now. oconee. Yes. Varian. Of the Beret. Yes. If they get you to do a quiz. With people who Conan, the barbarian and you'd have all. You'd have four names in years is one of the names nobody would pick your name for that. But. Again another another huge cult classic all these years later. And? So thank you for all of this. You may be well and thank you, everybody. For listening to this edition of Rumble with Michael Moore. And thank you to our executive producer Basil, Hamden our editor and sound engineer, Nick Pause, and please feel free to write me up. Mike at Michael. Moore DOT COM or leave a voicemail right here on the podcast speed and I'll have some links and stuff to show you here. From. Oliver's work infamous. Thank. Everybody will talk to you soon. Only. We're.

Vietnam Oscar Oliver Stone United States Michael Moore New York City Donald Trump Salvador director army Salvador America mister Reagan Yale University Iran scarface Nyu Iraq Martin Scorsese Moonie
Spencer Stuart executive recruiter James Citrin on how to find great CEOs

Recode Decode

57:38 min | 2 years ago

Spencer Stuart executive recruiter James Citrin on how to find great CEOs

"Hi, I'm Karen Swisher editor at large of Recode. You may know me as someone who liked the idea of being CO head-hunter better. When I thought it meant literally hunting CEO's, but in my spare time, I talk tech, and you're listening to Rico decode from the vox media podcast network today in the red chair is James Citron someone I've known but not known for a long time, the leader of Spencer, Stuart CEO practice. It's a global executive recruiting firm that has worked with companies like survey monkey Mozilla Twitter. Yahoo everybody. I don't think there's anyone James hasn't recruited in Silicon Valley. He's at the center of a lot of things. But also behind the scenes he is the author of several books. Most recently the career playbook. James welcome to Recode decode I'm so excited to get you here. Thanks. I'm hoping it'll tell some stories, but I don't know if you will let's start talking a little bit at your career. I like to have people's background. You got to what your you done? And especially how you got to the tech sector and how you moved into that area. Because you know, you all have done like a lot of the major placements of major executives. So. Talk a little bit about how you got where you got. Sure. Well, first off I went to Vassar college. And I graduated in eighty one and went to Wall Street as an analyst at Morgan Stanley went back to Harvard Business School, and I had this curious Martin Stanley just corporate finance and different deals, and I was okay at it wasn't great at it. I like the firm, but I was definitely not a killer. But secretly on this Lexi's relevant because one of the things at HP S. I was really good at interviewing I was really good at seeing what companies that were recruiting wanted and getting job offers. I ended up coming out in nineteen Eighty-six and went to Goldman Sachs and private wealth management didn't really like it. But one of the companies that I. Rich people, right? Exactly, right. Actually, the the original thought was I like relationships, and like advising people, and I thought that doing it at Goldman would be a great place, but I actually didn't like investing and all this stuff. But I ended up going to MacKenzie in nineteen eighty seven spent five years and really really enjoyed it and learned a lot and did some media work at McKinsey and love fell in love with media. And this is just consulting strategy consulting to publishing television cabling all the like. I guess thirty years the statute of limitations can be off because MacKenzie never talked about clients, but like timing and I worked in the Paris office for big French media company back then, and I had the idea that I wanted to go into media. And so in nineteen Ninety-two, I ended up going to then a prominent global company Reader's Digest association as director of global strategic planning, and I really did not like it and a year because I actually it was a very much of a direct marketing company, and actually this is quite funny for for your audience, one of the tasks that I had in nineteen Ninety-three was developed the electronic publishing strategy for Reader's Digest and doing a lot of research. I ended up thinking that the right way to go was basically into roms when other companies were investing in and figuring out the internet. I totally missed that. So it was never great strategist, certainly an. She runs but five seconds. Totally totally. But it was great because I called a friend of mine who at Spencer Stuart asking her for some advice because I just wasn't happy. I wasn't really feeling successful. And she said have you ever thought about our business? I was like Erastus. She said sure the executive recruiting business. I think you really be good at it. And you enjoy it. I was like she said the and executive recruiter recruited you to work at it executive on her happens all the time. All the time. And the reason was is it was like all the great parts of McKinsey and consulting without a lot of the bat. And what I realized was the things I loved it McKinsey was working with clients. I loved building the teams I actually had always a good sense for people, and I was always good at the communication side. And I understood the problems, but rather than solving them yourself finding someone else, and it was actually really interesting moment again way before many of your listeners sort of realized, but this was at the time when Spencer Stuart recruited lucre Sner from RJR Nabisco to IBM and turned around IBM that was nineteen Ninety-three nineteen Ninety-four. And so literally twenty five years ago this month, I went and started at Spencer, Stuart started in media recruiting doing medium level things that entails for people to understand. What did you do? What was your job? So I started as a consultant, which is what I am today consultant. Int- in Spencer, Stuart work local leadership advisory and executive recruiting company you so we are retained by companies to find executives for needs. And so it happens all the time now company needs to chief financial officer, the chief financial officer retired. And they you diagnosed what needs and you interview the management team you develop a position specification. And then you go out to research and try and find the very best people to do it. And you don't always get to work on the highest profile things you start like everybody started kind of in the opportunities, you're given. And you know, over the last twenty five years I've worked my way up and working with teams with great global firm, and I've worked on over seven hundred assignments over these twenty five years, but your question of how I got into tech. I knew tech a little bit. But not that well media for them. Right. I came in really doing media, and I did a lot of publishing and in the mid ninety s publishers started going. To the internet and creating interactive I did that. And here this very very interesting here. So in the year two thousand and one near two thousand and one yahu had a market cap before the first crash of over one hundred billion dollars. And I'd written one of the things I learned at MacKenzie was the importance of research and intellectual capital. So I wrote a book back in nineteen ninety eight called lessons from the top it, analyzed the best CEO's in America. And then I had the idea to go out. And just like, you interview them get to know them and try and draw lessons learned for great leadership. And so I did that and that book came out and was really big success. And I learned a lot of or the lessons, then well, some of the lessons were super timeless to this day about thought leadership people leadership values leadership, and it's kind of funny. So there were fifty in lessons from the top. There were the fifty quote best business leaders in America. And of the and they did all sorts of analysis shareholder performance. We did a Gallup survey. Most admired we all such other things. And in general, we got it right of some of those fifty and these were people like Howard Schultz at Starbucks Michael Dell Michael Eisner at the time. But but over over over time, many many were really there. So the lessons learned were about thought leadership and people leadership when I learned back then, and I see this day in and out is that leadership styles can beat from introverted too extroverted. That's the style is not the point leadership is situational in style. But the important things are about values about thought leadership and people shouldn't come back come back to that. But anyway, the point is that I did it follow up book and two thousand and one on more digital leadership and one of the people that I got to know in that process was Tim Koogle who at the time was the CEO of Yahoo. And later after that became out. He asked me to come out to Sunnyvale and spend some time with him. And when I went out there with a partner of mine, assuming it would be just an hour kind of conversation. He invited me to spend the whole day with him and Jerry Yang and at the end and Mike Moricz the payments. Jeff had just left. Sorry. Sorry. Jeff, Jeff Jeff was there Jeffers there at the time. He was a COO. Exactly. So that's where this is going. They asked me to my surprise to do the CEO search into thousand and one and the reason why they came to me because I wasn't like a fixture in Silicon Valley. They knew I had media, and they had a theory at the time that Yahoo should become more of a media company. And then I did the first of two as you well know CEO searches at Yahoo one and two thousand and one recruited Terry Semel who had just left Warner Brothers is the co chairman and CEO I not really well. It was one of my. One of my investors. Actually, can you talk about what you when you were doing that. You were looking for a media person who hadn't been in tech. Right. And that can you talk about that in that case. I mean in in that case this is getting this is now eighteen hundred eighteen years ago. And there was an existential question that who had in many companies have it whether it's in tech or media or retail for that matter of what's kind of the essence, and they had a they had of you that who should become more of a media company therefore needed immediate leader. What would the right, and we had a number of media CEO's? We did test that hypothesis with also having a big software CEO as candidate back in the day. But Terry was brilliant. And he well, he wasn't tacky had great access to advisors. Jeff Weiner was on his team at Warner Brothers and Jeff helped advice him getting smart in that process. He was a kid in this late twenty s and I think Jeff not to speak for him. But he would credit Terry for really came into tack. Even though he did born abroad. Interactive at the time any case so Terry started. And once that happened all of a sudden, I got drawn into other tech things and one thing led to another. And I ended up doing tons of of some of the biggest tech CEO and talk about the ones, you place, the ones you sure in you know, doesn't always work. And but one of the things that I am Spencer Stuart as a firm, we're really focused on research and learning and we're really much learning organization, but a lot that you know, some I think I could mention this for this audience. I've recruited Dan Schulman to pay pal. Devon wanting to help Meg Whitman bring John Donahoe back to EBay back in two thousand and five. I did the CEO process with board of Twitter that resulted in Jack staying as full-time there's Jack and Jack and also but also help recruit omit Kurdistani is as chairman. Did the Cisco CEO succession with Chuck Robbins Pandora was recently year ago with with Roger Lynch, Hulu, the founding CEO of Hulu Jason Cuyler who I'm sure you know, and many along that line. They said one grew upon the obviously Marissa Mayer. When you were started to do this is it different Intech when you're looking for years or was there because it had been these are early people. I was just this morning at Goldman Sachs talking to them about a bunch of stuff. And one of the things was that these are found her comp lead companies and stuff like that. You know, a little bit about is it that different in tech versus industries and then in the next size. You're talking about how it's going to change because I really do think it's changing pretty quickly. We'll be changing pretty quickly. But it was it different. When you're dealing with founder co founder led companies where the founders are alive and still very active in these come in sometimes the CEO sometimes not I do think the founder led companies are their own category. And there's more similarity with the company like Capital, One with rich Fairbank is still the founder and a company that has the tech founders still in place. More similarities there than than just in the industry. I think the big question in technology that most people in technology think is unique to. Technology. But actually is the case in a different way. Across industries is what is most important. Do we need an engineering technology trained product person to be the CEO or do we need a commercial person or do look outside the industry? So that engineer versus non engineer is the kind of always the core question in technology. But that's the same thing in financial services. Do you need someone who has managed to balance sheet or do you need someone hundred stands sales and trading or risk? I just finished working with the board of MetLife and wonderful CEO succession, there someone deeply knowledgeable of the insurance industry in retail where we've done the row Florencio the best by CEO that question is doesn't it to they need to be retailer and within retail to they need to be a merchant. So these questions of what is most important is. Absolutely central to this process. But in technology, it's really the typically engineer or not or the adult and around the often use it. Right. Well, that's when there's a early stage company that and I don't I don't like that. Parliament's? And by the way, I've seen some incredibly inspiring talented, very young people emerged to be inspiring leaders, and I've seen very season people be quite immature. So I don't know. He can so, but but in terms of in working for tech differently. You think it's not it's just that. It's just a younger industry. It is younger industry. The centrality of tech. The economy now is greater than it's ever been an as unite chatted about you've talked with that with your other guests the role of tech in society is changing and is under a lot of pressure. And that's big where's it going? That's one of the things. We'll we'll talk about. I think that fifteen twenty years ago. It wasn't the center of all the conversations Masset has become right, right? It used to be. I mean back in two thousand and four when when Michael Eisner was being succeeded at Disney to me that at the time that was the all and end all CEO succession process, right? And at Bob Eiger came in. It's the most incredible job. That was the be all and end. All today. You know, it's the big tech companies that are more the the old end all and you just look at by terms of market cap, and where the most valuable companies in the world. All right when we get back. We're talking with James Citra, and he is the head of is it CEO, you're the CEO practice. Yes. It's called Spencer Stuart when leading recruiting global executive recruiting firms, and he's recruited a lot of people in tech to their atop jobs and not just at the top. Also at different levels of the company, we get back. I talk more about where's the workplace going in house recruiting talent management when we get back. 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So why is this the future of retail? Well, a recent study from San Francisco state university found that people are happier for longer when they spend money on experiences rather than on products brands want to create those experiences. So when it's time for people to buy that fun. They had info. Nces what they buy its retail, plus entertainment, retail -ment when you look at how consumer trends of changed people still buy, you know, a lot of merchandise, but we're buying experiences. Learn more about TSN Broadway in the future retail design at T, S X, Broadway dot com. We're back with James Citron. He's the leader of Spencer Stewart's CEO practice. We're talking about. He's been very involved in a lot of big tech CEO placements tuck limit about where we are now. Because there's there's sort of a really interesting shift going on among talent Silicon Valley of towns always been in charge in Silicon Valley pretty much because of the the need for not just engineers. But everybody that it's it's been one of these areas that's been with the employees have a lot of sway. Is that still the case from your present? I mean, you look at Google, Google employees and people like that what is the landscape now 'cause I seem more founders sort of moving to the saisi such an Adela was not a foundry was an early employee, but the companies shifting into a different place. Perhaps you don't think that? But I'm just curious how you look at where we are. We have soon Dr Pachon at Google. We've got we still got Reed Hastings, obviously at Netflixing Jeff Bezos at Amazon, how do you? Look at the scene right now. They're so many topics again questions with within that statement. But I think that the companies that you mentioned have been the magnet for some of the most incredible talent into that sector years ago companies like Goldman Sachs McKinsey had an GE had the opportunity to attract the world's best talent. But over the last certainly ten years a lot of those companies have been supplanted by certainly competitive by those great companies that you mentioned there is a very strong sense within technology that kind of you get it or you don't get it. And there's a credibility that comes with being associated with these great brands or with the kinds of education and technology education that whether it's Stanford or Caltech or Indian Institute of technology that gets people into that industry in. Where we are today. There are some of the most amazing leaders within those companies, but there are also questions about are. They just the right place at the right time and someone who comes in. And they they're hard-working bright for I. I I e or even to this day, you know, how much is it their own leadership in Judy and cleverness versus just being great within a Reuben's business model. Like that. When do those X's leave they suddenly become humans again exhaust, especially I mean, it's interesting. If you look just on that point, if you actually look at the organizations that have spawned a lot of great tech CEOs yahu, actually, how amazing. Yeah. And EBay has some of the greatest in the same them. Let's light. So your who would be Jeff Weiner Weiner at linked into and one of the great CEO's out there out there to this day. Whoever Rosenzweig CEO of check has done a great job building that to a three point five billion dollar public company. Hillary Schneider at so decker not wasn't CEO following. But yeah, they've had a lot of executives nothing into jobs. It's it is interesting out who has denied show the CEO of one kings lane. They're they're number that were on EBay had a whole bunch bay had a had a whole bunch as well. And so sometimes those organizations that have had to fight a little bit more work, right? But then things didn't go quite well have to really be that kind of ingenuity, but just out of principle level. What I always find about recruiting. And this is just sort of a lesson learned for anybody listening. If you ever thinking about your own career getting a job, or if you're on a board, or if you're hiring people, it's the same thing on both sides, which is thinking about offend diagram with three intersecting circles, and this to me simplifies kind of the whole recruiting proposition in one circle there's capability what is needed in the job. What is someone's ability to actually do that? How much is their experienced before train them to do that capability? That's one thing. Number two is credibility in this goes back to the question about Intech is tech different everyone now, especially then when someone gets announced Google that person, they'll call their friends look on class dura. They'll say, okay, who is personal about is she great and someone to do and fired by or or not. So that's one of the criterion. That. Boards or hiring managers always say will he or she credible and retain our team. But then the third is attractive -bility when you're doing recruiting you actually need to find a person who will do the job when you're doing succession planning, which is a big part of our Spencer, Stuart work. We do a lot of leadership advisory work succession planning assessment all of that. This is someone pulling from inside the company. Correct. That's when you're doing promoting from within. I do want to come back to that. Because that is one of the big trends to to talk about. But any case if you think about the intersection of capability credibility and attract ability in that little intersection? That's where the magic needs to happen. And that's where you can find the right people. But it's not a lot of people in these important big high level jobs, right? Tuck Lim about succession, planning versus that. Because one that several jobs have been succession have intact. So in two thousand and four just give you a couple of statistics. So in two thousand and four the mix at the S and P five hundred level in the United States. They were about two thirds of CO appointments were promoted from within and one third were precluded from outside and years ago. When I started the way most boards thought about CEO points was oh, we have the person usually by the way designated by the incumbency, yo which usually back at the time was usually a guy, and he would say, here's my successor and the boards woods that. Usually was was was the guy after Sarbanes-Oxley that started to change. And so in two thousand and four when we started measuring Spencer Stewart in our CEO practice. We study every single CEO transition. We do a case study whether we're involved or not, and we do statistics about what works insiders versus outsiders, first time for six -perience ages and backgrounds, etc. But in any case back, then one third was outside two-thirds for insight. Almost on a straight line basis over the ensuing. Thirteen years that shift went to ninety percent insiders and only ten percent outsiders. And so from one third two thirds to ninety ten and that was a function of a couple of things number one boards did get much better at succession planning they realized that actually the old way of having the incumbency yo just telling their board. Here's my guy that no longer worked. Number two. There were some high profile disasters and boards tend to be quite anecdotal and said, oh, well, we don't want to deal with, you know, Bob, Nardelli, going Home Depot, and it not working and having to pay two hundred million dollars. And well, Disney wasn't the CEO that was COO and Lovett's, but at the CEO level they were few of these high profile ones and the boards de truly get better at looking at this two three four years in advance. And so that. Pendulum swung to succession, planning and promotion from within. And that's the place where Spencer Stuart and our competitors. Also, do that work advise boards assess the internals develop the specs either benchmark against the externals or have externals and have an internal and external track and some of the actual CEO appointments that we're most proud of it's interesting, and that I personally most proud of our actually insiders, so for example, in Intech, one of the great surprise appointments, and this one I would call a skip level is Andrew Wilson at Electronic Arts at EA. We were doing that process. There are external candidates that are internal candidates. And at the time Andrew was thirty nine year old division guys three levels down who's running EA sports. But we assess him like, we do the others. And we saw this incredible leadership this thought leadership this learning potential and humility and we played a key role in recommending to the board. Similarly, Chuck Robbins at Cisco was skipped level seen yellow appointment that what they call them skip level. Well, I don't know if that's what they call them. That's what I call them. And they're not the obvious like the show who is you know, the right the step up. Right. So that's where the boards are. They're really doing succession planning. And as I said when they were only ten percent of the appointments went to the outsiders those ten percent to to be the most difficult assignments. Whether there was an activist or maybe there was a metoo issue, or there was a real business model breakdown or real turnaround. So here's a case like best buy and two thousand and twelve where many people started writing it off for dead, and you had the founder who was pushed out and who was not being treated well by the board, and he really didn't like the direction of the company he was working with private equity to make a hostile you had Amazon basically putting them out of business Circuit City had gone out of business people using best buy to show room. And then by. On Amazon there were real questions about its survival. And in that case, we found Huber show Lee who was outside of retail. But a brilliant guy inspiring had a vision that had a cost aspect of it to be able to be cost competitive with Amazon to partner with vendors to create these stores within stores to re- focus on the training and culture of the employees. So that you and I can go into a best buy store and not feel and just actually learn because we need to touch and feel and that company's been great turnaround. When you're thinking of succession, one of the things that's hard is a lot of these Intech successors of founders think in the case of Microsoft went to bomber who's kind of a founder, I consider him. He was there so early, you know, sort of a semi founder, I guess they went with an internal person has been very successful huge huge successful and impact put some far superior to bomber. I'd put such a an Bob Hager. If you were to ask me who are the two. Two best internal successors who have transformed mentally transform their organizations, so far I would say such an and Bob, and I think it's it's a function of some things affect your earlier question about like leadership. What Thomas they they both had absolute clear vision for what they wanted there. We're going to be and then in the case of such you, and again, you know, him, and I know really, well, he's wonderful person. He's a values based leader he's very humanistic. But he's intellectually rigorous. He's not he rakes tough decisions and makes big big bets, but brings others along and his bets have turned out to be really, right? And he's kind of recreated the per cent Davis, founder culture there somewhat toxic had become very aggressive, and internally aggressive and changed. It really drastically. Microsoft today is not the mesh. I started covering had stops and change a founder culture, really which a lot of these companies. Some people don't think you can. Escape the DNA of these tech founders, especially cannot over index Microsoft, but I I would say that he didn't I think he kind of reignited the best parts of the Bill, founder culture. And I think being highly sensitive the same way Kevin Johnson is doing at Starbucks right point. So it's not a changing it. But I think the smartest leaders really know what to tap into on that. But one of the real things that I've seen, and I believe carrot to the bottom of my heart is that leadership matters. And that a great leader can actually help make people's lives better. I don't just mean this to sound nice. I really believe it allows e leader creates toxicity people are to that. Okay. People are miserable. But a great leader really creates opportunities makes people happy and create jobs, and and what's shocking mostly about Microsoft how fundamentally and how quick? Kley something of that size could be transformed. What about at apple Tim cook? Because he was he was an internal hire me. Yes. So Tim came in. He was a highly regarded sticks and logistics and ops expert, I can Texas and came in to do tech and odds, and he obviously was Steve successor. But it wasn't even obvious up until maybe six months before the appointment that he was going to be the one and there were questions, and that's a big open question. I won't really speculate on Tim's successor whenever that happens. But it's a really interesting exercise to think. Okay. How do you take something and go to the next level? Oftentimes, people think okay. We just need more of the same. But most great leadership transitions are quite different. And so that's a real important one. You think? What do you think he's been in that probably not appropriate for to say other than to say guys? Amazing, right. He's a values based leader. He's brilliant. You know is created the world's most valuable company up until you know, a couple of weeks ago, or whatever. And obviously they've got challenges but growing on that massive a huge fan. Do you think most founders eventually have to be replaced, or is there the one founder who's done very well Jeff Bezos, obviously despite his personal troubles right now. But he has really led that almost perfectly, but there's very few that have survived there'd be gates him jobs, but they're gone and learns or gay. I don't know what you know. They're off one's doing a hovercraft the other. You know, it just is th there's they have not been as engaged as as previously. Is there problem with having a founder, and then we'll get to Mark Zuckerberg? And the next section. I think the challenge of being founder, and I've we've done some research on this. I just think it's such a fascinating topic. Just think just in general, today's founders. Of that caliber, you know, a century or two centuries ago, they might have gone into politics or military. But now the changing the world is to found and build these big build these companies, so the kind of quality of people coming into business over the last twenty fifty years is very very very high. The big challenge is can they change as the needs of the organization change. And I know you had great VC partners on this on this show. And they're in that business of making judgments of Hutu back and all of this. It is the rare founder who can go from zero to build the team racing the funding creating the commercialization, and then you know, they were two hundred hundred to five hundred and all that and constantly scaling. I will say something kind of might be inappropriate, but years ago, one of the big searches I did and and the internet in the mid nineties was the for the head of Barnes and noble dot com. My god. That one. And I was there you were there. So we were like at the time looking at Amazon and someone on the board of arsenal. Made the comments like well, Jeff Bezos wouldn't be qualified to be to run Barnes and noble dot com. Can I sorry? That's all. In any case that the the point is that the ability to scale the ability to learn the ability to attract great people is really what what founder needs to do. And I've seen it's not just intact and Howard Schultz is one of my Monterey business heroes. One of the friends actually who I met back in nineteen Ninety-seven when I interviewed him for lessons from the Tom Ridge Fairbank, I mentioned that at Capital One one of the longest serving founders in America today. And so I think their ability to scale is a function of not being arrogant, keeping learning attracting great people around and constantly being open to what's needed to go to the next level. Not being so adult by being so ridiculously wealthy that they they start doing crazy things. Well, actually, the motivation is a really interesting question where and that's one of the topics really wanna study, which is weird people fire come from. And how does that fire chain? Change at different levels of success or failure. In one of the really interesting lessons learned over the years about hiring. Great people is looking at sandy Weill. You remember sandy Weill Bill travelers merged with city sandy and I interviewed him back in nineteen. I followed this. He had a real theory that he hired people on the rebound that people who had had a failure. If he understood it, and they learned from it. They would be that much more motivated to succeed the next time and on that basis. Jamie diamond really was was created and has become the greatest leader in financial services. So I never forgot that. And so that idea of understanding failure, which is very hard for many people and very hard for boards because very boards. Ken unless they're given the confidence they contend to be very risk averse. Yeah. That guy. No, not that guy did. But at the same time, I think when the success ones lose their motivation. It's it's almost always over money. They get licked up and down. All day. And you know, this and think they're right all the time. And we'll talk about that next. Because I do think the the constant reinforcement cycle of these people that they get someone just asked me today. And I was like they literally get licked up and down all day. And when you challenge them, I often them in meetings with him. I'm like, what are you talking about? They aren't even used to challenge anymore, which I or extreme cohesiveness is like a tux ity. It's not just the founders the more senior, you get in business in government and all that people, and it's human nature it happened in monarchy's back in the day. Exactly. Because people's power gets derived from their proximity to others. So so it is a really big trough. And then believe trappings tech right now a lot of ways. Anyway, we're here with James Citron, the leader Spencer, Stuart CEO practice. We'll talk more after this. This episode is brought to you by prudential prudential knows. Your finances are deeply personal impacting your health state of mind, family, dynamic and work. They sent wellness. Expert, Alexandra Drane across the country to uncover. The challenge is getting in the way of your financial wellness along the way, she met Americans working hard to juggle their financial commitments see their stories now and learn how prudential can help you achieve financial wellness at prudential dot com slash take it on. We coat decode listeners. I'm ready Guernsey it I'm Greg Gordon with a co host displaced the podcast. Listen to you want to understand why we have the largest global despite some crisis since we'll we'll to one of our major focus is a season is the future of war. We will look at how technologies like drones cyberwarfare and social media are changing the ways that conflict start and how they play out subscribe to season to displace now on apple podcasts or wherever you get your guests. Or here with James Citron, the leader of the Spencer, Stuart CEO practice. We're talking about a wide range of topics especially focusing on tech because James has been really involved in a lot of big CEO hires in tech and other big executives. One of the things is the downside of what happens when you have a crisis at a company, and what happens then I didn't ask you what Marissa's I know. You're not gonna talk about Mercer Mayer, but we still very proud of my role in recruiting Merson. I'm very proud of many of the things she did. And I think she did some some great things didn't all work out. But I'm now. Whereas you it's funny. It's you know, it's unfortunately, I think Yahoo was on a downturn. And almost nobody could have saved the situation. But one of the things when you have crisis like that not just with Mercer, but lots of different CEO's like with Travis kalanick's at Uber or right now with Mark and Cheryl at Facebook. What happens inside a company when there's like recently, there's been a million calls for Cheryl or Mark to Marquette be fired, obviously or you have a founder that actually like has that control that can't move out. I how do you feel about that in ability of boards to actually do anything? When when these companies are have way too much, founder controller have complete founder control, which would interesting Amazon doesn't have it and Facebook does Google did have it. And then what happens in these crisis? When there's calls for firing when Wall Street pressure talk a little bit. I know you don't want to talk specifically about whether they should be fired. But what happens with look it? I whether or not they're super voting shares or control or not actually. Think is not the central point the central point carrot is the degree to which aboard has or does not have confidence in their leader. And that you can have all even be an advisory board. And if it's a group of people that the leader or the founder respects, they will have a big influence the Facebook board has some amazing people on it. And again, not to speculate. What's going on in that discussion? But I believe that boards as a body there. This is how this is how they think we support our CEO until we don't and they're always asking. So within any situation aboard is always asking the question. How do we feel about what's going on? And then exercising influence to the best of their ability. And if they do not feel that they have their advice being taken or their council than that can resign. They don't I mean, a lot of people do feel a lot of tech boards are toothless like around tesla and SEC. Stuff, and the, you know, obviously Elon's a great leader in many ways. But some of the stuff he did was really problematic around the specially around the comments relating to stock. And then which I think a lot of other CEO's would have gotten a lot more trouble. It's really fascinating if the CEO of I don't know any company would have done that. I think there'd be a lot more help pay in an interesting way. So and the boards would have acted differently. Same thing at Facebook. Most people feel like they have almost no power to do anything. And we don't know exactly what's happening. But most people feel they don't have any look again. I don't want to speak beyond my area of inside or or what what is appropriate. But I actually believe that companies are either wired to try and be positive sources or not and in well companies and then boards can operate to the best of their ability within within that context. I I don't think this controversial. And I'm not just saying this. But I actually genuinely believed that the impetus Facebook is good. They're good people trying to do good things. Obviously, there's a lot that needs to happen. I really believe that strongly, and I will tell you something about Mark that I've I haven't met him many times I've done on worked. But there is something that I think is quite instructive back in two thousand and seven I had the opportunities like privilege to work with Mark and Cheryl to recruit chief financial officer for Facebook. And something that I think speaks volumes about their culture and to this day. So I met met with Mark. And we spent two hours, and he didn't know Spencer, Stuart to note, Jim Sicher, and he didn't know any of this stuff. And and, but he started the questions with and first part was like, okay. Well, who are you? And what has Spencer Stuart, and what's recruiting and all this very high level stuff? And then he just ask question in question. And question after the end of two hours based on his questions, he cut to such a level of insight about how things work, and he said, okay? So one final question. So so let me understand this. So if you working on multiple CFO assignments set a time, how do you adjudicate use that word, how do you do to Kate between a candidate that you'll show us at Facebook and someone else and that is incredibly sophisticated question about how to work with a executive search from Spencer Stuart and what he did over the time of meeting. All the candidates was really try and go to school, and what a world class CFO is like, and we ended up recruiting a wonderful guy named David men who had been the CFO Genentech who then and then took them public, and he has gone on to great things as a CEO Lear health. So that to me speaks volumes about his capability to ask questions and learn the open, and I from what I believe and hope it's the. The same impetus right now to get to the truth to get to the essence based on good and to figure out what needs to happen. So that's anyway. That's that's what I believe. I do think that the boards. They're going to be really always focused on. How can we help this organization? Do the right thing. Do you think they should be more? I don't mean antagonist, but tougher on these CEO's or not we don't know what happens behind closed doors. So could be feels like there's no consequence. It certainly doesn't. Well, can I think that's you know, anybody can can speculate look at knee look at all the metoo stuff. You look at this stuff Google on sexual harassment. You like we're was who is when you have like how much is that impacted like, it's you could go on a lot of not just diversity me to all those things. Like, there's a lot more complexity to being a manager today in terms of things that were allowed to go on and especially when you don't have diverse culture, and you have an almost all male, white, male culture. It creates a different kind of outcomes. So. I do think that it's interesting. I just had a wonderful conversation with with Facebook's worldwide head of diversity and inclusion and she was she was a Rhodes scholar. She's she do not don't Mexican and credible inspiring and the quality of the work that they're doing and the implications it's not just HR practices. It's on every aspect of their business from the product. How do we how are users interacting and trying to get their leadership team and their user base all that to be reflective of the global world. But you're absolutely right. Our requirement for checking beyond what's just in the public domain, and even the routine background checks has gone crater that it has ever been before, particularly because if in board appointments or CEO appointments that could bring down aboard or company or individual. If something is not understood and disclosed. And so now, we have different kind of talent tap. Like, you know, it's a really interesting problem now to face, especially when it goes back twenty thirty years, right? What do you do what what is the? I mean. I think. Yeah. Well, I think there's kind of two levels their companies have policies, and so there's know that content to be a sound a little, you know, bureaucratic. But it these judgment cases. And I think they're clear cases where things need to be decisions need to be taken. And that's very obvious. But there are there gray matters where there may be alleged to be careful in this environment that people are not guilty until they're proven innocent. But as I say, it's really incumbent on boards and individuals to disclose and to do the work and to understand what they're what they're doing. Do you spend a lot of time doing in that vein because I would think it's more important than ever. I wanna say Otto. But it's kind of you know, how politics they do up and you do up on yourself. Like, what's the worst thing? They can say about me. Do you tell boards the bad things? You heard about the candidates when you enter like or you going. This is a shiny new candidate. We'd like to show you we really try to be balanced. I. Say I can't tell you. How many times I say no one's perfect. It's all about trade offs. It's all about understand the trade offs. Are that homers lead? I I'm often called by people. And they're like, what do you think? I'm like, oh, here's the six things. I've heard like just so they know we really try and operate adventures do in a no surprises. If you read our candidate reports, they're balanced, really balanced. We really try not to sell we really try to advise, and it's all in the context of helping hiring leaders and ORs understand that no one's perfect. And that in fact, the way I learned this years ago, the best way to get references is to ask have the confidence to say, look, we know all lots of the good really want to understand the downside. So if you don't come back to me, Spencer, Stuart whoever with the real downside, then you won't have done your job, and we can handle it will just make our judgments, and so that's kind of the spirit that we go into these. We always ask. Candidates for kind of their list of references and respect them. We also do our own and because of the work that we do recruiting board directors with our trusted relationships. We're able to have access in do really good three sixties. And I I will say, you know, knock on wood know, anything can happen. But we we take that very very seriously to help our clients and help ourselves prevent Email even the problems on the told Ober about problems with one of their Google records. Like, at least it was never determined. But I was like it happened. You need to be aware that this was a problem there, even if I don't know if it was proven up, but boy that was there was an issue. And they didn't know, and I was like, you know, where was that? Where did that not happen where did not have any? So what do you do? Also. I just a couple more things when you have. I'm starting to focus on native things. But when you do have like a toxic CO like like, an Uber. See where you have a problem where there's mounting problems within a company. Do you get brought into those things or like? Recruiting dara. For example, do unfortunately, we didn't recruit Tara up. Dr was I think a brilliant choice for outside or you know, you can handicap other. When are you? What was the problem they faced? I mean, they first of all they had had a see who had a lot of power, right? Who had a lot of that process? Started by Travis having to recruit a COO writing imposed on him by the board. And that was going to be a challenge, but still Lubers Uber and many great people around the world were drawn to that. And so they had some candidates as I understand I've talked previously. Exactly. And then after Travis was stepped out then it turned into a CEO search, and, you know, at least as was reported in Recode, you know, they had Meg they had Jeff Immelt, and they had a dark horse and that darker turned out to be Darah, and that's a really cheating. He didn't know. But funny candidate his daughter's like Recode, saying, that's hilarious. I didn't. Told them because dealers like well carriages called me and said, you got the job funny. But when you're doing that like when that when you're in a situation like that where it's fast moving, and there's a lot of presentation on it and things like that. How do you manage that? Especially for the employees, and I wanna finish up talking about where employees are going to look. Here's here's the principal. Great people can go into really difficult situations, if they know what they're getting themselves into transparency is really key. And can I wasn't on the inside of the reward. How they characterized it. And I know Travis said a lot of insulin. But any case difficult situations can attract great people if people know what they're getting into. So here's here's one that. I think I think I can mention just recruited the CEO of Nielsen David Kenny came into Nielsen at the case in a challenge company that is in the middle of. An activist situation where the activists has pressured the company and the company committed to doing strategic review process, and so that was happening publicly Hattie recruit someone into that. Well, it requires a great board to be extremely honest transparent with their candidates to say, here's the situation. We haven't Crump to any conclusion, but we'd like you to come in and help us sort out. What is the best thing for our shareholders and our customers and all of that, David IBM? How did you get him? What did you say? Dave, I've got ten well David someone known for thirty years. We were in on the board of. Yeah. He was on the board of Yahoo. But we were classmates at Harvard Business School together. And and he was doing extraordinary things that as at IBM and Watson and their cloud business. But but anyway, I just knew that he loves technology. He loves media. He's had experience in private equity. He's had. Turnarounds. He he was the here's an interesting thing. He would have been the logical person had one of the private equity firms made a presumptive bid to try and acquire Nielsen. That's how that's to the point earlier. I said credibility, he's super credible, and he's super capable and just knowing over many years that, you know, something like that could be the right thing. He ultimately could be attractive, but it's a real testament to the Nielsen board they were really really transparent with him. And now he's leading the strategic process. Very very well. But the principle is that difficult situations. They're almost every I say this all the time. Nothing is easy. Nothing is perfect at all. And if it's perfect, then there's only downside. So it's a row about diagnosing a situation. And then I'm a big person of you go with the people. There are people who you trust that people who you respect if there are people who you like, and you align yourself. With them. Then you're have a great chance to be successful at the CEO level. Or even if you're coming out of college, right? So last question, and we're going to go, and but right now with power of employees, you see Google employees demanding their management manage better like very clearly making message and saying you you've fallen down on the job. And I think they'll be more and more of that at lot of these companies are not quite as docile as they used to be in terms of things, and they have a voice, and they use it wouldn't is the best give me like three very brief. Like, what is the most important things for CS to be like today when you think about like, what are the three best qualities for a CEO authentic. There's no separation between one's work life and their non work life so being authentic and not being a BS artists. Not trying to sales person just to be real number two is communicative. And absolutely. So mentioned a graduate of Vassar college. Our president at Vassar, Betsy Bradley, she writes every Sunday night, she writes in Email to the college community about what she did this week, and she takes pictures of the sports events and the Vassar national women's rugby champions issues that she's worried about and that becomes a way of her her leadership. Saw I've seen company leaders do that as well, so communicative authentic, and I genuinely think did you have to be transparent now everything gets out basis as tax get out. I mean, everything everything you do have to assume that everything's out. And I think the third thing is the role now at the CEO level the real role is to be the thought leader of the company or the organization where are we going? Everyone wants to know where we're going even if you don't know you can say, here's where I think we're going for these reasons, so if you are the thought leader, and that by the way goes to the if I really summarize everything I've learned over these twenty five years and seven hundred assignments. All this the two ingredients that are most important for leaders are two fold number one is to be the thought leader for the organization and number two to be the people leader. It sounds simple and simplistic almost trite, but it's really below that to be the thought leader. What does that mean you have to be really smart? If to really know enough about the situation, you have to be a realist, you have to do your homework, and you have to develop a point of view. Ideally, with others to be the thought leader to be the people leader that means to have the right value set that means to genuinely care as much about the people who were with you. And for you as your own success. It means to really do right by others. And if you you can do that and be a real introvert as I said or, but if you're those two things that's a really important lesson for hiring people or for listeners for their own careers. Just developing those two instincts is what I would say. All right, James. What's your next job twenty five years recruiting? I been in some form of the recruiting business for I I was a college admissions interview or lead analyst recruiting Morgan Stanley. I just I I've been always doing this. And I absolutely love. And I would probably be the only thing I I've been a adjunct professor at Harvard Business School at Stanford, Duke, and and others. So I've written seven books. I love writing a love teaching like communicating. So that's probably what I would do what I still have at least hopefully another good fifteen years here. It's been Stewart. All right, James. Thank you so much. It's a really great discussion. Again, thanks for coming on the show after all this time. I wanted to talk to you for a long time. And thank you all for listening. You can find more episodes of Rico decode on apple podcasts. Spotify Google podcast wherever you listen to your podcast, and please tell a friend about this show. You can follow me on Twitter at Carris Fisher. Jane people follow you online. I'm Lincoln influence, or and I've got nine hundred eighty eight thousand followers. So I need twelve thousand listeners to follow. Track that million. Jeff Weiner, give you a free lunch chef area. Renton area. I will tell you once I cry. All right. Okay. All right. So and then what about Twitter to winter? I think I'm James Citrin. I'm not a big. I love Twitter, but I've more. Cossio and Trumpy. That's what you're going to do. They're doing it out right now on Twitter and occasionally George Conway ways in now that you're done with this go check out our other podcasts Recode median pivot. You can find those shows wherever you found this one thanks for listening to this episode of Rico decode and thanks to our editor jewelry and our producer. Eric johnson. I'll be back here on Wednesday. Tune in then. I want to tell you about boxes. Daily news podcast today. Explain we're now part of ox dot com and were here with the host of today. Explain Sean Rama's firm. How're you doing, Sean? Great care. Thanks for having me here. Now, we're like related now. I guess we're true or like cousins explain what today explained is short explained explained. Do the news every day. We do it in a very human way care. We knew it not as you know, the voice of God. I you making fun of Michael Barbaro my friends. No, we do it as as we are humans experiencing the views. Are quest is to really understand the news. So we can go out in the world and make the decisions we have to make a more informed way. We sort of established lots of tricks last year parody songs, first person, non narrated stuff and this year. We're looking forward to coming up with all sorts of other engaging ways to deliver the news to you. There's a lot of news. There's a lot. Lot of news. I wish there were less news. Thank you so much on Jan subscribed. Today explained on apple podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcast. It is a great show. Welcome to our vox family. Thank you very much. We decode listeners I'm ready for Murphy it, I'm Gordon with the co host displaced the podcast to listen to. If you want to understand why we have the largest global displacement crisis since what wilting in the season, we're going to focus on one of the most important issue shaping the displacement crisis. That's how the nature of wars changing technology. We're going to be filling you with nightmares of killer. Drones cyberwarfare an official intelligence leading global conflict. I I'm like, really curious. 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CEO Spencer Stuart founder Spencer Yahoo chairman and CEO Google Amazon Stuart CEO executive Facebook Silicon Valley James Citron Goldman Sachs Intech Mark Zuckerberg COO Harvard Business School MacKenzie Jeff Weiner Weiner
Pain Ahead As Election Politics Quash Stimulus Hopes: BI's Dean

P&L With Pimm Fox and Lisa Abramowicz

29:56 min | 7 months ago

Pain Ahead As Election Politics Quash Stimulus Hopes: BI's Dean

"This podcast is brought to you by HP engineering experiences that amaze HP creates technology with purpose to make life better for everyone everywhere learn more at hp dot slash sustainable impact. Welcome to the Bloomberg markets podcast on Hall Swinney along with my co-host upon Quin every business day we bring you interviews from the does market pros and Bloomberg experts along with essential market-moving news time to Bloomberg markets podcast on Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts on Bloomberg. Dot Com. We are still awaiting Fed Chairman J PAL Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin the House Financial Services Committee talking about the need for more stimulus to get a preview. We Walk Them Nathan Dean senior government analyst for Bloomberg. Intelligence Nathan thanks so much for joining us here I mean what can Mr Mnuchin and Mr Powell? What do you think the committee is really going to focus on with these two Folks. Well. There's really three things I think that the we're GONNA come out in from the hearing I think you're gonNA. See the Democrats, really stressed the need for municipality relief. an individual relief and then on the Republican side I think you're going to see questions about utilizing unseat unspent money from previous care act and what would investors should really not that you're probably not going to get any answer. Any clarity in terms of what you're going to see going forward I, think the most important thing to look. In today's hearing is to see if you get a signal from chairman Powell on whether or not the Fed not congress is going to do anything to support the economy in the interim because our tickets is that stimulus is pretty much dead for twenty twenty and that's going to have to be something that we're gonNA figure out in two, thousand, twenty one. I mean, there is the suggestion that with everything the Fed did and with the original cares act it wasn't. Maybe, targeted in such a way that it might be extra efficient, right. So the spending money out there but it doesn't mean that people are not suffering still I is going to be any mention of this. That's exactly right. So if you look at the feds to big programs, you get the municipal liquidity facility for municipalities I think are trimmed. Powell. Can actually do some defense there. I. Think he can say that you know he's short end up Some of the pouty market where he's going to struggle I think is going to be on the main street lending. Facility. So where would you small businesses get their their funds? You know PP is gone and so small businesses are continuing to struggle, and so I think you're gonNA get some questions on it. We'll see what what if he actually comes out and says anything about how that's going to work. My guess is probably not he's just gonNA throw it back onto Congress and say if you want to support small businesses, we need to have another stimulus deal and then you know just unfortunately because of the election and Skoda's fighting deal is probably not going to happen this year. It's interesting Nathan. I would suggest the vast majority of experts we spoken to over the last three months pretty much. All said, we will get some fiscal stimulus before the election. What. Went wrong here. So I was one of those I actually had You know my my my deal was three to five, hundred billion for municipalities before the election. And unfortunately, what happened is it just took too much time to negotiate and we got into a too close to the election if you're on the democratic side now, not even taking into account what's happening with the Supreme Court, if you're on the democratic side, the last thing you want to do is interject a boost into the economy one month before the election if you're on the Republican side, while the last thing you want to do is support a three Chilean dollar bill or one point five, trillion dollar bill when you have things like job numbers increasing and echina- anecdotal stories about the economy coming back and so. We just got to a point where they ran out of time Both sides are going to go to the election. They think it's politically. Advantageous not just for them to go she, and so we're going to have to see what happens in twenty twenty one after the election. I mean by then will there have been irreversible damaged on? Millions of people in the United States on employed this hopscotch kind of virus could strike anywhere soon again. Yeah that's exactly right now I think that you know it's a lot of people want this stimulus to happen You know we'll see what happens in the lame duck There's always this possibility and I I'm making it out of consensus call right now where I think there's a small chance that you could see a very skinny bill in the lame duck period I'm thinking airlines because there's plenty of bipartisan support, forgiving airlines, additional relief. So there's still This desire and they're still this acknowledgement that they need to get something done but we need to get the election out of the way we need to get the supreme. Court fight out of the way we need to find out who our next president is going to be when we get all of that, we'll be able to come together and twenty, twenty one and hopefully hammer out face four stimulus deal Nathan. You spent a lot of time looking at this whole functionality here or dysfunctionality talked about what a lame duck period is and what types of legislation. Can or cannot get done during that time between November and January. So the lame duck period is obviously after the election but before the new Congress comes in and so if you've lost your seat, you're only going to be around for a few more weeks and that does that gives you an incentive to maybe vote for something that you wouldn't otherwise voted for now there's really two types of lame ducks. There's one where they just try and do a ton of stuff because they recognize it's not going to happen when a new president or a new Congress takes over, and then you have lame ducks where they say you know what we're just tired. We're just GONNA go home. Odds fever that in this lame duck they're just going to say we're tired go home and we'll figure it out the next election. But because like you said Bonnie, there is so much so many people that are looking for help right now you know there is this possibility that they could come together and say, right we're gonNA figure out something to do just a band aid patchwork deal put it out there you. Know government shutdown in eight days, and so they have to actually finalize a stopgap funding bill maybe that goes into the lame duck period, and so we're not done yet in terms of things that Congress have to pass So again, the odds favor that nothing happens but if I'm an investor in specific type of industries, there's certainly I'm GonNa keep my eyes on it because there is still a chance that's. A good point Nathan Industry is very good at getting this president's era and this administration ear and certainly restaurants have been trying to do that for several months and you mentioned the airlines. It's almost surprising that some of these. Industries haven't been able to eat something out of the president whether it be by executive order or some other way. Is there a chance something like that happens in the next few weeks? In terms of executive order. Yes. executive orders are limited though we saw that with President Trump's executive order on providing relief You know certain states embraced it. Other states didn't in so consumers didn't get the same number of stimulus checks the gotten before in terms of industry though you know restaurants have a great case of why there are you know while they're being damaged airlines, movie theaters, and they all have asks and he's asks her going to politicians that are sympathetic to them. What happens though is that they get interjected into this three billion dollar debate this one point five, trillion dollar debate normally for the last two to three years how these bills get passed they get attached to. Either funding bills must pass pieces of legislation and that's where the lobbyists in the policymakers do their dirty work. If you call it that that really hasn't happened in this case, I think if you get into the lame duck period and something does pass you know then you have this shot of being able to interject your your industry specific legislation. If it doesn't you know, let's say, no matter who wins the election we're going to have an extremely busy year next year because remember we also have the debt ceiling coming back in the first half of next year we also have a lot more stimulus that we need to do and whoever president wins they're also going to try and interject their one. Hundred Day agenda. So lots of stuff is going to happen in the first half of next year well, Nathan you mentioned municipality states, salaries we had governor Cuomo from New York Governor Newsom from California talking about huge budget holes in their fiscal year budgets that they need to fill in the made the argument that they need help from the federal government to fill them look like states municipalities are going to come out come up empty here. How much pain is that GonNa be it's GONNA be bad. You know. So the center of Budget and public policy priorities put out analysis that we we like that said that just taking out the local and county municipalities just states plus the District of Columbia. From Twenty Twenty, two, twenty, twenty, two, you're looking at probably somewhere between two hundred to two, hundred, fifty, billion dollars in tax revenue. You know that's just that's just lost tax revenue that's not even taking into account increased costs or anything like that. You know the Democrats have proposed giving about eight hundred and seventy five, billion dollars in municipality relief across everything. So local and state, and so forth, Democrat or Republican counter back with nothing than unspent money from the cares actors probably about a hundred billion dollars. So you know we always thought this three to five, hundred, billion dollar number would be reasonable from both sides. It wouldn't solve anything municipalities are still going to be hurting for the next few years. Into every single county and I remember even the city of Tuscaloosa Alabama. Once said that if the Alabama football team didn't play this year they're gonNA, lose two billion dollars in tax revenue how do you make that up and so municipalities are GonNa be in some pain and I I think they'll continue to be in pain no matter what happens with Congress. Can't they just borrow and worry about his mother time? You know that's a great. You know it's one thing they can do and it's one thing the Republicans have said you know chairman mckenry will probably make a statement in the committee today. I'm sorry. Ranking member mckenry of from North Carolina. He will probably make a statement in which he says that you know listening to St Governors and so forth talking about all the money they need is a waste of time. You know rather than actually trying to get Congress to provide the money, they should go to the Fed they should go they should borrow money they should take advantage of low rates and they should try and make sure that the market you know brings. Their Connie backup so that they can do use this time to actually cut some of the fat from your from your budgets. So the Republican argument is that you know the markets should be able to resolve this. We haven't seen thousands of policemen or firefighters being laid off yet I mean certainly that could happen but you know for the Republican Movement, the pain hasn't come to you miss powder yet it's still just a theoretical idea. Nathan what's the expectation in Washington? If people you talk to about a scenario where former vice president biden does win the election, the Democrats do take control of the Senate. What's the expectation then? So it. Really. It really has changed with the Scottish fight that we're having right now before this past weekend, you know it was going to be there was going to be pressured to do away with the Filibuster but I. think that you know unless the Democrats really takes, let's say fifty three or fifty four seats you weren't going to be able to do it. You still have hold outs senator cinema from Arizona Senator, Manchin from West Virginia they. Were against filibuster reform now this is changed and so you know it really depends on the makeup of the Senate whether you're going to get a biden presidency that would move forward with a lot of these grand changes or whether you're GONNA get a Biden presidency that's going to try and Ingratiate Republicans. If you get a democratic Senate that's probably north of fifty three seats, you're going to see in my opinion more Progressive Biden President See. If it's somewhere closer to say fifty fifty or even if the Democrats don't take the Senate, then you're going to get much more moderate Biden presidency. When will we expect to see changes because you know they won't be an inauguration for humans Sunday at point. Depending on the makeup of Congress there may be still some barriers to an igniter Biden wants to do what would be his first one hundred days when it comes to Kami. So you know Congress Washington doesn't move fast and so most politicians are sorry most presidents try to get everything done within the first hundred days of their term because that's the momentum. Now like I said before there is a debt ceiling coming up we also have to get a stimulus bill it would save by wins. He's GONNA WANNA do stimulus bill. So that's GONNA. Take a lot of momentum away from things like potentially judicial reform police reform. I'm bank analyst banks are probably not high on his priority but So he's going to have to try and move fast but the on the flip side if he's dealing with the Senate still has a filibuster. Well, you know they're Senate. Republicans can effectively block a lot of what he can accomplish. So that's the question is, is he going to try to move fast or is he going to try and move slow? And I really think it depends on the makeup the Senate for things that rely on the Federal Reserve. For example, you know Biden is not going to have much influence on the Federal Reserve. Chairman Powell is in his term until two thousand, twenty, two, vice randall quarrels for banking supervision is in his term until the late twenty, twenty one. So the financial regulatory team in place outside of the treasury secretary is going to be largely a leftover from the trump administration. So it'll be really interesting to see if there's a difference of opinion between what you get from the White House and when you get from the Fed, my guess is probably going to be more on the same page. Nathan what's the feeling within Washington about the House of Representatives are the Democrats in A meaningful risk of losing control that house. No. So the Republicans need a net twenty seats to reach to eighteen and the last polling numbers that you can find let go suggests that the Republicans would have to have a huge sweep to reach that number. Most of the races right now are are still on the democratic side. So I, don't think there's any expectation that the house can flip You know what I tell clients, all the time is. When you look at the House just note this is where ideas jacket get generated. You know the ideas that eventually could become laws usually get generated in the House of Representatives and in this case you know there are certain bills that's House Financial Services Chairwoman maxine waters. Today, we'll be discussing at the hearing with Secretary, MNUCHIN and chairman Paul on relief for manufacturers, restaurants, airlines. So these are good ideas that watch them because they could grow into something larger. Speaking of like goal, which is by the way a fantastic way of checking everything election related on your Terminal L. E. C. Go. President trump saying he's he's going to announce the US Supreme Court nominees Saturday Mitt Romney's saying he would vote for Gore justice this year. Is it on deal at this point? Well, nothing's done be on Washington until president trump actually you know until the vote actually occurs nothing's been done deal but. the Democrats don't have much in the way of blocking this You know we've seen how Democrats float ideas like maybe we could have another impeachment. Won't work you know. So if they want to if the Republicans want to hold a vote this year, they probably can They probably can confirm this is not the quickest that a Supreme Court justice will have ever been confirmed but you know what the Democrats do have is this threat of what happens if we win the presidency, we win the Senate you know, do we stack the court? Do we do away with the filibuster? That's the the nuclear option if you will and so you know the responses that you've seen from Republicans publicly right now is that you know they they're not sure of Democrats would ever move forward with that threat. So you know it's one of those things where there's nothing they can really do to stop them, but they can vow to make the situation much more I don't WanNa say worse but much difference in twenty twenty, one win. All right Nathan. Dean wonderful stuff. Thank you so much that has Nathan Dean senior government analyst. HP's vision is to create technology that makes life better for everyone everywhere last fiscal year HP's sustainable impact strategy helped influence more than one point six billion dollars in new sales creating positive lasting change per planet people and community for the planet HP is transforming. Its business for a circular and low-carbon future for people. HP is championing dignity respect and empowerment for all people with whom it works, and for community HP is unlocking educational and economic opportunity through the power of technology with the goal of enabling better learning outcomes for one hundred, million people by Twenty twenty-five learn more at eight p dot com slash sustainable impact. Our next guest, an investment banker and author who has written and focuses generally on the banking mortgage finance. FINTECH sector is Chris Waylon joins us for thrilled. He's chairman of Waylon Global, Advisors, author of. Lots of excluded inflated how money and debt built the American dream and Ford men from inspiration to enterprise but today. Wouldn't mind starting off Chris on the idea that we're getting a little bit more of a glimpse into how money flows specifically shady money flows around the world and it's absolutely with the help of financial institutions. All ones we know when some we don't but nine hundred financial institutions appearing in leaked documents this week including daughter and J. P. Morgan your thoughts. Well wouldn't a dollar reserve currency Vanni it's hard to keep the bad people out The US government uses access to banking services and in the US dollar as a way of punishing bad actors and states, and so banks have a very complex matrix. They have to wade through to do business with foreigners, any foreigners, and a lot of them have just decided not to do it many US institutions will not do business with. Non US residents. So I think it's not surprising it's been a problem for a long time and many of those banks that are listed there are you know providing services? They think are okay but in order to due diligence on these people and keep up with the lists of banned persons, for example, requires a lot of focus and a lot of effort by banks and they don't they don't do a very good job do they Not Surprising as we've been reading about this for years. You one more headwind for some of the big banks that deal with these days I'm wondering given wearing interest rates are how low they are and how the Fed Chairman Pal suggest that they will stay lower for much longer than maybe people initially anticipated is there a bull case for buying these big money center banks? While we're still awaiting visibility, Paul on credit You know their banks have certainly put a lot of money aside for future losses and I expect that's going to continue all year I. Think at the end of the day will probably put aside more reserves. This year than we did in two, thousand, eight, two, thousand, nine, and the fourth quarter could be quite a mess in terms of taking assets to the curb and. Cleaning House so but to your question, is it time to buy them now that they're down? Well, they're not really down very much. J.. P. IS STILL One quarter times book I just published a note on city steady. You know well, blow book and it's just a reflection of the returns. They generate the higher risk shops like city capital one, Goldman of habitually trade below book because of lack of visibility on. Forward advance right. Especially idiosyncratic events from investment banking engagements right which no one has visibility into. So you know for me. Yeah there's some banks out there. That are great value wiping buying mostly the preferreds when they've been selling off because you know buying an eight or nine percent coupon at par, which we've had an opportunity to do several times in the past year. is kind of Nice Low Beta you know. Makes me happy I got out of most of the common I had some US Bank but I just traded out of it because I I think I combined again later on once we have a little more visibility on where the banks are gone well, speaking of city Chris. You've negative on city for some time obviously a very troubled past and in that no that you just reference you talk about the the new. Leader Jane Fraser. Who's going to be replacing the core bat in February of next year and you say you know corporate does leave behind a legacy of stability and rising equity values. But little change in terms a focus or a new business direction for the bank will Jane Fraser be able to find one? I don't know I think short term. No, and the reason is that they traded away from their asset management business sewing up the mortgage Stanley and probably made at the time. But you know by core bad had to make up for shambles that had gone on really from when John Reid. Left the bank in Ninety eight through the period of Sandy Weill, and Bob Rubin and then Vikram Pandit and the bank was really in bad shape. So it's right now a two legged stool if capital markets and you have essentially a subprime consumer business in the US and then you had these. Little Bits and pieces around the world. But you don't have a firm foundation for this bank in terms of deposits or just the ability to to to make money in the same way that J. P. Morgan strike they they have a huge advantage because they're offshore. So there are facilities cost much less than other US banks, but they still make less per dollar of assets and to me it's a business model issue Vanni. I'm actually working on my next book, a biography of a very prominent mortgage, executive rape story, and it's a nonbank store who's the mortgage executive do? I I'M NOT GONNA. Say I'm GonNa Tease you a little bit that's been announced yet, but it's almost finished and the neat thing about it is it's a nonbank perspective of the eighties. So Ninety s and the two thousand and who was city see city got the nonbank. The non-bank culture of lending on unsecured no doc mortgages all of that came from the nineties and the eighties people forget this. So that sin cultures in city cities part-finance company part Global Bank but if you look at their funding costs significantly higher than the other big banks so they're at a disadvantage I kinda put them in the same bucket. As Goldman, they have some business model issues just make investors on easy whereas they'll take a US bank or Bankamerica J. P. Morgan 'cause they think they have a better handle on it right in terms of the surprise. Factor. Chris. Thanks Chris Yeah Choi so much for joining us here I have a guess as to who this person is and maybe vinyl. Later I guess Chris Waylon Chairman of Whale, global advisors joining us. We appreciate his commentary as always giving us his thoughts on some of these global investment banks, the headwinds facing from business model issues to reputational risk, just tremendous Matt's headways. But at some point there has to be value. This podcast is brought to you by td Ameritrade in these unprecedented times having access to the right. Information can help you make better informed investing decisions for today and tomorrow TD. AMERITRADE is committed to providing a range of relevant educational content like articles, informative webcasts, and even access to daily live market news. So you can stay on the path to becoming a smarter investor learn more about their breadth of resources at TD AMERITRADE DOT com slash market hub td, Ameritrade where smart investors get smarter. President trump set to make a speech in which he is expected to assail. China over the coronavirus preview. What we might hear. Jordan Fabian Bloomberg News White House correspondent joins US so Jordan give us a preview of what you think president trump is going his main argument in front of the UN. Yeah. No. In fact, the president actually just wrapped up his remarks just a few minutes ago you speech was very brief just under ten minutes unusual for this kind of address. But he yes, as you said, he assailed China over the spread of the coronavirus blaming the Chinese government for letting it spread outside borders and taking a victory lap of sorts for the US response. Even though you know by the numbers, the US has the worst outbreak in the world you know times speech sounded. Like one of his campaign rallies that did seem like it was really intended for a domestic audience coming just a few weeks before Day November. Yeah I mean what kind of response does he expect from the General Assembly itself or the individual countries I mean it's the United Nations and China is very much a part of the united. Yeah, of course, you have China and other countries in Europe pushing for your return to this multilateralists of you if our policy more for cooperation between other great powers of the world. But I like contracts you heard your president trump. Jr Again, sort of do it his go go it alone style an America first agenda you know talking about how he forged peace agreements recently between the UAE Newsreel and says that more those type agreements are coming. Those of course were not really done within the framework but it's something that the president personally took some pride in. So you know the president sort of against setting himself apart and sending a message to the world that he's not going to be afraid to be rattle ruffle feathers when it comes through sensitive issues foreign policy. Jordan what do most experts say? was in fact, the role of China in the coronavirus in the global spread was there anything policy related was just simply lack of communication on the part of the Chinese authorities? What do we really know? You're right now I think we don't. We don't know a whole lot still about how the the origin I mean. There's speculation about this lab and. We still don't know the full story and I think that's speaks to the. Criticism that we've heard which is that you're trying to hasn't been as transparent as other countries might like about the origins and also the operate in that country and how many infections are actually are You know reported the low number you know the president is that number is higher there's been some criticism of China for being slow to let in. Officials to the world, Health Organization and American officials along with them. To come in in the early stages of the pandemic monitor, what was going on trying to get a sense of how this virus was spreading. What about the idea that you know the WHO has backed China as being transparent on on this and it does appear that international agencies are not flocking to the US side of things on anything they're very much trying to stay neutral or even allow China the benefit of the doubt. That's right and. The. There's been some real tensions between who us the president announced that he's playing to withdraw us from the W. H. O.. That would take place next year. If he is reelected and so there have been some some real tensions there. But again, you know this is something you know again that the president seem to be doing for domestic political purposes, his Iran on this agenda of Y- again, the, America First we we the American knows the way forward and critical of lateral organisation like the United Nations I liked the WHO so when he was looking for a scapegoat when the outbreak in the US guys very bad. You turned his sights to the CIA to China the W.. and has been harping on this beams ever since. China she's paying is actually now delivering a recorded speech to the UN assemblies. So it will be interesting to see if there's any kind of response to what the president might have said or what kind of message she will will deliver. A Jordan. Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate Jordan Fabian. White House correspondent for Bloomberg News. Reporting on. President. Trump's speech this morning to the United Nations. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews at Apple podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer I'm Bonnie. Twitter at on equipment Paul Swinney, I'm on twitter at PT Sweeney. Before the podcast, you can always catch US worldwide at Bloombergradio. HP is leading the way in protecting our planet people and communities. For Future Generations together, we can make a quantifiable difference learn more at HP, dot com slash sustainable impact.

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1597 Dan Traub of Method Procurement on Best Practices in Supply Purchasing & Inventory Management : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1:06:52 hr | Last week

1597 Dan Traub of Method Procurement on Best Practices in Supply Purchasing & Inventory Management : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

"Hey doctors are you overpaying. Upfront for clear liners. Are you settling for poor support. And unexpected refinements ortho snaps technology delivers the most precise clearest at the lowest cost. And you only pay for the liners. You're patient uses. Get comprehensive support with ortho snap the most affordable and clearest online or on the market today stop overpaying ensure patient outcomes visit or snap dot com slash clear and as dental tone members. Get a five hundred dollar credit for your first patient. That's ortho snap dot com slash. Clear is just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interview and daniel michael trial. He's the vice president of method procurement technologies. He's approach technology procurement technology expert. That might be a new word. Pro technology procurement technology expert software entrepreneur. Dad husband and weekend racer. Because he's a hoosier from indiana. He likes that indy. Five hundred widely regarded as an expert on procurement technology and process optimization. His experience vans over twenty five years prior to joining method. Dan founded a procurement. Analytics provider led one of the nation's i e procurement programs in higher education and held leadership roles with ernst young cap gemini and jagger as part of the founding team at method procurement. He's directing their product strategy and bringing a comprehensive solution to revolutionize spend management for the dental industry he brings an agile collaborative data driven approach to navigate clients most pressing challenges with a cloud base enterprise offering that creates compelling value. He directs teams that method and bringing the roadmap to life in a fast paced growth oriented environment. He enjoys the challenge of building an engaged community of customers who pushed the day the team daily to improve to innovate ignored the status quo as a sought after industry presenter and thought leader he brings a message of how procurement strategy can powerfully impact an entire organization with a background including procurement and supply chain practitioner consulting and software inch brunner. He takes consultive solution oriented approach to his work partner with this customer. Dentist to support lasting change that considers a realistic day-to-day constraints. That they all face. I could go on and on and on but to my home. This is not a commercial. No one pays to get on the show. It's the fact that the bottom line is this. You know i had four boys who were on me until they flew out of the asinine now they all own their own home and they got their no longer depend on me in there. They got six dependent on them. And i know when my grandchildren when they have a baby that i'm out of here and so all i'm thinking about is my little grandchildren. And my little taylor marie and evelyn and jasper and garner as a birthday on easter. When i'm gone. And they go to the dentist and the dentist is owned by wall street and says oh we should crown that tooth not filling or if they go to. A dental. Insurance company owned dental office. Like you know. Kaiser permanente neons nine offices in portland cigna on some dental offices and got a business and the insurance company like all insurance companies. They want to collect the premiums not pay the claim and they're all saying well. Where's my little taylor. Murray go when she needs a dentist. I don't know everybody that. I talk about the top line deal. There's a dentist dental insurance. Companies irs finance companies suppliers manufacturers. Those are all top line. Numerator numbers divided by the bottom line numerator denominator of the patient. And we're supposed to keep one eye on the patient and one eye on cost and hold up her hand in front of our face and make everything faster easier higher quality lower costs and smaller. And i just want her to be able to go to dennis. I only went dentists making diagnosis and treatment. Plannings dow that's paid for and what supply us that that. That's that's a whole other deal. But i'm just i know this you're competing against eso's and everything. Dan is talking about is what they are doing. So you wear way too many hats and you need to delegate and you need to find an inside business partner. Hopefully it's your spouse or or someone that's going to be there with the ten twenty years. All my success can be tracked down to about a dozen people that have been with me right here for thirty two years. Twenty to thirty two years and Dan just an honor to be on your show. And i want to start with the question do you think. Dso's are thinking about dental supplies like you are and what percent of my homie individual practicing. Dentists get it. Yeah thank you howard in it. I appreciate you having us on this show. This is a privilege to kind of spread the the good news the gospel. A little bit about what we're doing and why it's so important work for for dental him and we are focused on that business business part of the practice that that allows you to be sustainable and all those other areas observing patients you know. Dso's the promise of a multi multi-location Whether you call yourself a dsl or not. The promise of getting into multiple locations in the first place is is to to scale if effectively and and so as you know they're using that you know that charge to go after marketing and human resources and all these other areas of of the business to make to make it more Scale and to make those processes more more consistent different ways so absolutely. Dso's are now starting to turn their attention to expend side of the equation and focused on procurement and and the whole cycle of of outside goods and services spanned. We call it spend management so not everyday so is there yet But you know the promise of is leveraging your buying power which is now larger with multiple locations is is a is an aspect of that that now. You're starting to see people build procurement functions procurement departments at the level in the meanwhile you know the the the solo dentist right in in need to compete effectively. Where excited because they're starting to see the light as well that after years of of no transparency and the dental supplies market now there's providers like ourselves coming to the table and saying. Hey you have different. You have different options. Yeah options that you didn't know about and we're to see that That awakening if you will to help them to help them compete. So we actually serve both ends of the of the market alibi but yet there's a there's an awakening and really it's come from other industries. Oh that's what. I like to tell people you know. We're we're we're procurement. I and sort of dental second. But those two together have not really been focused on by providers and so we've found that opportunity early on to say. Here's here's an industry that's It's not yet followed some of these these revelations other industries have proven so we're we're going down somewhat well worn path but there's a lot of changes that we have to do to adapt to dental. There's a lot of. I graduated eighty seven and i thought the automatic garage door opener was the big technology home run and when they brought that to the tv's he didn't have to get them chain channel. And i mean. I never imagined walking dental school that i'd have an iphone that that's connected to dental town with a quarter million dentists onboard but a lot of dentists. Get confused you know. I graduated dental school in eighty seven. And i'm a dentist. And i got an mba degree. As i know business But i started my own dental publication in one thousand nine hundred four so i am dentist and a journalist with an mba and all these supply companies are owned by my friends. And i love to death. I mean gosh darn. Pete shot the big founder of taking patterson public. I mean he was a good friend of mine but he was only him and three m in minneapolis. Saint paul or my sister is in a nunnery. And so every time i visited her. I need to do some dental for four hours. And one minute to make whole thing a business trip and So i go hang out with pete for set of patterson for hours one minute love rick and chuck cohen at benko. They've helped me so much in my mind and Always put me on their list of top thirty dental influence over here. But i'm still journalist and their friends and they know but what you said something interesting that the supply company hasn't had a lot of transparency. It's been kind of opaque and there was just a huge lawsuit about that. We're basically the three big boys. Patterson shine bengo when they found out. One of my Ex employees friends maud shams was starting a online dental supply business that they said they didn't kick him out. They weren't going there and by god they They didn't they know showed. And they got their ass slapped by a judge Were you aware that. And what were your thoughts on all that. Was that what you're referring to when you say there hasn't been a lot of transparency. I mean the texas dennis walking. I didn't know what was going on. Right right yeah. I did follow that case Then that was actually before we started method. You know. I think what it was in court for years and years and years man. Yeah fact i still think there's some some some parts of is still going on. Yeah i think you're right and you know from our perspective. What what's the antidote to To suppliers kind of call. Maybe pulling some tricks right And and that's and that's having a good above board documented procurement process where you compete You know for for the where where suppliers can be for your business. Okay so you know. Having having a level playing field Having for example the opportunity to let suppliers bid on the opportunity to serve your practice You know in been putting it all on the table in a transparent way making making that decision. Not based on maybe gives you the best golf vacations or sports tickets right but but actually running through procurement process and like these. These are these are processes other industries have used her for years. We're We're a method kind of a coach in a lot of ways. We help coach people to you. Know how do you run on an rv or in our q. How do you Running a quarter of my listeners are still in dental school. When all these acronyms of why read so go through those two acrobats. You just said sure on our q. And rfp yeah the an r. p. a request for proposal in our qa request for quote. Basically when you're thinking of make about making a purchase it's the it's the process by which you spell out exactly what you need and what volume over what time period and then the suppliers submit a bid to uh to say you know i can. I can serve that need and and at this price of so when so when these dental students when to get married they're gonna need a request for proposal and they can find that on your website. The wedding industry on that from but yes as someone who had gone through the wedding process myself my wife and i got three quotes on a bunch of different things such as the same same. As when you own a home right if you're not gonna get a couple of quotes to To do some major work on your home. You're probably going to get Probably going to get Surprise with a bit higher price and you should paid So that's that's only part of Part of the procurement process. But there's there's There's even more and that's and that sort of a controlled environment you you have. You have staff that you you trust But you also have a budget. They need to do it here too. So part of the thing that are that are to bring to the table. Is you have a budget and we help enforce that budget for expenditures. Each month and all expenditures can be reviewed and approved before before they are made. So you don't have that We that uncomfortable. You know oh crap moment at the end of the month where you've spent past the end of your budget and you have all these purchases coming in invoices are stacking up. And this is the biggest. This is a great time talking back. Is this the biggest nightmare month for dentists. Because now this when they get a letter from their account and say oh by the way you owe the government gazillion dollars for taxes and they Are independent contractors. The they get jobs and they hire him illegally as an independent contractor so they can avoid paying financial fico matching which was seven and a half percent so to save seven percent of labor. They tell some one of my young homeys twenty five straight out of dental kindergarten that eason independent contractor which never holds up court. That was designed for construction. You're building a house. Yeah hire a plumber. You don't know crap about plumbing and then you hire no lectures. You know crap about that but when you're hiring dentist who had dental office and you own it and you set the hours and he use your tools and equipment and charts and software and all that stuff like that. He's an employee. And every time this goes to court in my thirty two years the dentist loses and has to pay the back taxes of the dentist because the irs just wants his money and the and the young kid pay it and they just want their money and it's a nightmare and then the dentist that are working for themselves. They don't pay their taxes every month or set it aside. They think they're rich. They're they look at bank account. And say i'm gonna buy me a new race car like To drive around on weekends like you do. And then the irs shows up and says you forty eight thousand dollars in taxes. Like dude. i don't have forty eight hundred and so they're not sophisticated because if they owned a dairy queen which is owned by warren buffett the financial accounting the managerial accounting. It's all on their software. But dentistry you know We have shown denture. That's not connected to accounting that's not connected to quickbooks pro which they all use. I use pete's you're counting because i'm an mba. And i want a little more sophisticated than that. Then quicken but i think quicken might get a little better someday And so they. They don't know their numbers and and i'm afraid that when they're talking to you about supplies in their walnut brain they're saying supplies applies only six percent of my business my labors twenty-five percent and my lab bills ten percent. Why do i care about supplies or the light bill. What would you say that well it it actually if you care about your prophet you care about your bottom line. It's some of the fastest way to drive new value to their bottom line to padua prophets In in the reason why is that dollar taken out of the expense side of the business is direct profit right and you compare that to increasing production. You know you. Increase production say one hundred dollars. Average practice is only going to be able to return about thirty thirty five dollars to the bottom line by increasing production. Well we all know. Mp increasing production means. It's time in in the chair and it all comes with your week. Your week might already be maxed out and you have no more time to give to the chair. So if you are at that point You turn your attention to the expense side of the equation and we know that By doing the data analytics. And that's a big part of you know you talked about it in in the intro. You gave me very kind intro that you gave me today. Engaged driven and in business is really Not just a passing fad. It's it's how business gets done. And i have an mba is as well and and you know. I was trained in that discipline. And i apply a now to dental clients where you can look at the data and you can save. For the very same products you're overpaying by axe so by chan a change in procurement behavior. He can still keep using those same preferred no products. Those same bonding agents the same instruments. The same crowns implants but buying them smarter and differently gets gets that product into your into your practice at a lower cost Then you have all the labor you know we we talk about standardizing processes and dental. That's that's a lot of it to you. Want your staff to be able to step in and follow the same discipline procurement process no matter what they're buying or from whom and that and that helps You know that helps make sure you're getting the maximum you can out of every dollar and that dollar is going to be return any dollar that you can save on the procurement side of the equation producing outside goods and services that goes right to the bottom line. There's a lot of padding in in dental lab bills As there are in dental supplies bills there's also a tremendous amount of padding in your marketing Hr advertising and those types of bills as well so we like to take kind of total spend perspective at method is that we want to help people with with all outside goods and services now that tends to be first and foremost dental supplies. Because that's what everybody knows. But if you look at the expense of your of your your profit and loss statement. You're going to see all kinds of spend you've got maintenance rent you've gotten utilities you know landscaping Office supplies all these things We believe that. I gave good procurement. Process can can shave Cost out of all of that. You know my dad told me my dad is you. Don't just learn from your parents successes. You learn from their mistakes. And i just. My dad was my hero. And i saw him go from delivering. Wonder bread for eleven thousand dollars a year at all these grocery stores and leaving the house at four. am and getting home after dark and Of course when he got home from dark me and my sisters go read the wonder bread truck because they collected all the stale hostess twinkies and all stale stop and why we thought we were the richest people in the world that we didn't know where the poorest people in town and then he made a gamble and he went into business for himself and he bought a sonic drive-in franchise and and the first year made sixty thousand eventually. Oh nine i got to see what what this does to your impact on your life. But he used to always sing to me how he the easiest dollar earned as a dollar expenses. Save the second easiest dolor earned the dollar in taxes saved but the hard blankety blank blank blank blank blank. Dennis you'll ever is from another dollar from working. And and you know so guy starring you wanna make if you need another dollar. Why would you do another. Mud composite are number to someone. With a thick tongue jagger you just want to save a dollar and expenses on your electric bill your taxes your labor. I mean it's all about and unfortunately my home. I love him to death because all they wanna do. Is there a chef. They wanna go in the kitchen and work up a big souffle. They want you come in to just want to get you out of pain that that's why we went to eight years of school. But my gosh they they don't wanna do they never know their numbers and then they don't have anybody helping them. I think open dentals gonna be our savior just because it's open. Hopefully somebody will Program bridge between quickbooks pro and quicken and all of that stuff and help them but okay so homeys to method. Usa method usa dot com and dan. Water my home's gonna find when they go to method. Usa dot com. I see the top tabs product solutions. Why method pricing resources. What what's on your website. Welcome to remember. They're driving a car right now. Yeah so it's on that first page you're going to see an explainer video that talks about think about ninety seconds just a nutshell of of what we do. We're a technology provider. That helps help to guide your procurement process from start to finish helping kyle. Can he actually pull up the website on his end. Right now and give us a demo. Yeah we can do a little Really nice so if you're on i tunes switchover to youtube youtube dot com forward slash dental town magazine. And thank you. So much for the fifteen thousand seven hundred subscribers guy starring. That's amazing if you're a fan of the show please subscribe hit the click button but so if you're on i tunes switchover to youtube and see this demo. So give us adele shut up and give us a demo and explain to me. Why my dentist. He's trying to learn how to do a root canal and place an implant needs to get focused on your website. Sure sure so. It's a data driven tool that we have your team. Your team is going to log into our tool to do the purchase activity and that can start with simply a list of in tori we track inventory and we use We use bar-coding. I don't know if you can see that Clearly this is a wireless barcode scanner so may products Now thanks to the. Fda are coming barcodes and we can help you barcode products. Track them Both in and out so the you have some precision to identifying what it is that you need to buy in the place And and so that's kind of starts the the the process or can start the process. We know that in dental at the lot about reordering. So you're going to have some private catalogs which are like favorites list and you can set these up and share them on your some examples. You might have pb hygiene restoratives etc and you can promote those across your entire practice. And that's including the concept of a formula that is a new term. Ti encourage you to to to talk with your talk with your supplier about it Do some research about that concept but a formula he gives you a typically a a deeper discount on a set of products that you you want to standardize around and so you can publish those in our tool you can see here this little icon. You can publish those to your entire team. So they're not going off into the four corners of the earth buying their own Varnish or or at adhesives. They're going to be doing it against the list that you've already voted for clinical effectiveness as well as well as For savings and most suppliers will give you a deeper discount on your formula. I list. that's that's part of what we always coach people to To negotiate for so are two also supports private label products And we have a cross reference between private label products from different suppliers. So this first one here just to to pick one here this by registration material. We've actually cross referenced in. Our catalog are our global database and our global database of products has over four hundred. Thirty thousand products. And we've been able to cross reference common private label products so you can compare darby option versus a pearson option versus a shine option and make a an effective decision with with pricing and stock availability and mind. You can see here some of the stock availability that's listed that actually is coming in real time from the suppliers. We've got some secret sauce that we used to do that. But the idea is that you're going to be able to Do a complete comparison in the market As complete as we can facilitate So reordering products is is key Having good information about the products that you're gonna buy is key But also what i'm doing here is this is marketplace. This is a one stop Shopping cart and notice. I'm picked a supplier yet. I'm focus on what i need. These are the items they may have been tory that i'm running low on. These are the items that i've ordered in the past These are other specialized items. That i need that i can do brand new searches for and then what our system allows you to do is control the actual purchase by i Collecting that information in deciding from where you're going to buy it and for that we have what we call a cost analysis tool. You can see this as a request and i can go one by one and i can say all right. Let's see here Looks like darby going to win now on maybe this next one You know might be Better because of stock status to get from From a bank or a shine for instance. So you could go through that and make that decision one by one where we do make it a lot easier by doing what's called a cough now so we can put that into a grid and we can do. Some comparisons and flagged for you who the best source of supply might be forgiven product. And what we're doing is we're highlighting as we retrieve price for highlighting in green The best the best option that you have so you can see. Dc here You know we can save darby there. It's cetera and this will give you a comparison and you know sometimes when grandma items and demos like this maybe not as extreme but Here you can see a five point. Six percent savings From using two suppliers these suppliers to these two suppliers so our systems to make some recommendations about the mix of who. You should buy these products from based on our knowledge of the price that you're eligible for with each of those suppliers And if there's not a product available from a given supplier you can make that selection but this all starts with good knowledge about the products themselves and your suppliers and the pricing. And if you don't have that it's sort of like to use the the racing analogy. It's he poured bad gas into your car. You're not gonna you're not gonna win the race So you have to have really good product information. And that's that's one of the the strengths. I think of the of the method tool that we try to Try to put in there. You're also see on this screen here. Budget exceeded so part of our system is to control the purchases before they're made sometimes they're made an accident Or sometimes they're made in excess. If you have a strict budget that you follow and by the way that's another best practice then you can put it in our system will monitor that. And you can see. We've flagged this when read because you're already over budget so you better really need those items right and and that's gonna that's gonna show your staff before they make a purchase. Where's where you're at with regard to that budget situation and then before we actually make purchases themselves. We're going to actually be able to route this for a an approval and so typically doctors going to be able to to get they'll get an email from the method system that we able to review that purchase proposal which are basically what this is just a proposal. These are the suppliers are involved with my proposal. We can Get the shipping handling and tax at this stage. And you can see. I'm about to actually order from two suppliers though in one step. I can do to suppliers. I finish this off and submit it for approval and its approval. Process is part of the controls that we've been we've been talking about is that goes to the doctor. They have an opportunity to review and approve. Maybe they're going to deny they deny there's communication record insisted back Back to the submitter. Then we're able to place the purchase orders. A purchase order is just a legal document between you and the supplier. Saying what you need and how much you're gonna pay and your supplier will ship and fulfill that order just like normal. They'll send you an invoice and then back in our system you can mark off the products that you've received and that keeps Keeps kind of full circle tightness in that process. So you know exactly what you're waiting on. You know exactly what you've received and it gives you a chance to check the status. Check the condition of those products before you pay for them rather than blindly paying an invoice. Not really sure if you've actually got those products that's kind of a nutshell of the prophet xanax tower. What i just showed there. It makes a lot of sense. I'm gonna do. I want you to show me some inch some exact questions. Bp costs have gone up. The what are the threads is. What are you paying per hundred gloves. Yeah absolutely we you know we. We've seen we've seen mobile dimensions to the problem. A right in the challenge one is just availability And so you know having order history. I think i have a few that. I could show here having order history on those commonly ordered items where you can see the price that you paid over time. That's going to be down here at the bottom of the screen you can see the different Purchase activity you that you made against that item. We're in the process of building out some really exciting functionality around analytics so you will actually be able to pull up a whole category of products in c or cost escalate over time and in the case of a p p starting to come back down. But it's it's going to be high for a while unfortunately But it all starts collecting the data and no matter what the supplier you're buying from our platform will capture that data. So that that's a really important point is if today you're buying from this suppliers website that's suppliers website etc. They have lot more data about your buying habits than you do we we we we tell that to our clients all the time and so what do you think that means when you come into negotiation if they know more about your buying habits than you do. They've got the upper hand. This help level the playing field. Now you've got data that you can go back to a supplier and say wait a minute. I know i know. Exactly how many pe- pe- Units i i know how many cadillacs i buy per quarter per year. Give me your best quote on that volume and and really you want to be talking to your suppliers about your annual volume We believe that's the best value conversation you can have with with with a supplier. Because you're going to commit potentially all block of business to them and in in return you know they're going to be able to give you a better discount than if they were negotiating with you one order at a time so we try to help people see that You can still partner with your suppliers who are who are good for your business. But you're going to negotiate with them. You're gonna talk to him about the importance of of Maintaining level pricing and cutting out some of the games that you see in dental supplies business. It's amazing also. What suppliers will do once. they know. they're being watched with a system. Like this because you've got that data now and you can go back to them and say. Hey i've seen your price moving up justify it. You know your your price for this products. Three times a you know the consumer price index. Why is that sometimes. When you get lost in the woods you just need a compass. Just north south east west. Are you know if you can just you know. Have a compass. Summarize five thousand years recording history. The two biggest problems were there wasn't transparency kings and queens and other people were doing. You're buying from someone or not being transparent about all these details and then competition. I mean dennis competition They set up. State boards of dental examiners in every state so that Great dentists or mexico can't come up here and practiced dentistry in guadeloupe. Or there's probably about one hundred thousand and said come here tomorrow from india so nobody likes anything competition. So absolute power corrupts absolutely so. It's all about price transparency and competition. And if you're transparent and competitive than it's good for everyone not just the seller the buyer the whole damn heard of eight billion humans will be better sir. Transparency and competition. But i think my dentist stuck in that group on mode. They're always looking for a deal. You know what i mean you know. We tried group on. But you know if a mexican restaurant says. Hey you can get to talk and enchilada for dollar. They'll come but if they get one. That says ninety nine cents. They'll they'll leave. I mean it was a race to the bottom. The suppliers are always offering deals when the legend. My gosh the legend was sam walton of wal mart in little bentonville and he said we're we're not having deals much money. It takes to have a labor day sale and a fourth of july cell and going out of business sales that expense could all be saved and have lower costs and he says i know no one else is doing. But we're gonna have everyday low price and we're getting grain mom's head that you're not gonna find it cheaper that walmart and we're not going to advertise not going to do deals but my homes are still stuck in deal mode. They're always looking for a deal. What would what would you say to them. That sam walton dinner. Show in fact he was so four american competition that when bernie marcus from atlanta. Who now owns the falcons called them up. And ask for advice on his fourth of july Their number one selling product was a ceiling fan. He's like what you recommend on how i do this deal and sam says get in a plane. Come down here. You're you're you're you're out of your mind. And he did at one. Eighty on bernie marcus. And that was the birth of home depot. Going wall to wall in america to get off deal mode and go on everyday low price shopping and then student marketing. They still do all their marketing to get a new patient. You think walmart's looking for a new patient. New customers never been to walmart or southwest airlines. Or when you're advertising for a new patient year an an amateur all the big boys and girls are putting all their money in loyalty programs. Longevity program fly southwest airlines ten times. You get a free. They'll want customers for life. They want to build a hoover dam and backup patient hygiene capacity a mile. Long my home. Don't even have a damn for every new patient. They put in the hygiene department. One has to come off because agents works forty hours a week fifty weeks here. That's two thousand dollars a year. She could only see one thousand people twice a year for cleaning so you see gets thirty new patients a month. My god thirty old patients have to come off the month. Are you quit booking and start a new high jedis at thirty patients a month. Every four years you'd have another fulltime hygienist and they have won hygienics forty years later. So how do you get them to go from marketing for new patients to a loyalty program. And how do you get them in supplies to go from looking for a deal. I mean come on easter sunday. Are you telling me you don't have the easter special deal on gloves. Come on and you know it's it's we've had the pleasure tumbling team at method In in we have a bunch of different industry backgrounds. And we all we all scratch our heads about this deal mentality this promotion mentality because when when it comes to corporate buying and this is what the. Dso's are doing folks. I think that's a good a good comparison. Corporate buying does not entail temporary discounts. Temporary deals in corporate. Buying is is much more planned and it's much more negotiated on behalf of your volume over a period of time and you're gonna find You know with with that sort of everyday. Low price locked in pricing and behold that price or the suppliers markup fixed for a period of time. You're gonna you're gonna come out much better ahead Both of you really Rather than this fire sale mentality suppliers. Understand that you're only paying attention to a small number of products as well and those are typically the products that you buy. The most suppliers will often extend great discounts and in deals on those products that you pay attention to the most but then those less frequent products. They'll hit you with a fifty percent markup so that that one or two product fifty percent markup can more than make up for the loss step margin that they would have on the other items. so so. that's that's some of what's going on with with the The industry mentality but the does are are seeing through it. They're bringing much more of a corporate mentality to to that where they're negotiating on behalf of many locations for a period of time and they're actually saying i don't want to have discounts. That are temporary. If you're able to give me a temporary discount you know what you're able to give me a discount the whole year long. So let's let's talk about a whole year long discount and our tool for for for one not only just collecting the data but our data will actually let you enforce. I price So no matter what. The suppliers website price does our our site locked in price. And make sure you pay only that price and then you negotiate every every year every two years to get that price updated not every supply. You might be thinking well. How under the suppliers cooperate with their arrangement. And you know how else they some. Some some outright have been confused enough that they they can't stay away to cooperate but more and more people are like. Okay i'll play. You know you give me give me a fair game published rules and i'll go after your business. I will do what it takes to win your business. I don't wanna be under undercut for a few dollars here and there or free box. Gloves are or other discounts. I wanna to have a relationship okay. So then you're so you're doing great. But and i'm not thrown on your boss. I just know what my only thing. Okay and here's what they're thinking they're thinking dude. Look love ya you know all that stuff but look my my payroll is twenty five percent and my supplies six. Why should i pay somebody. Twenty five dollars an hour to flip through his shine catalog or go online to say twelve cents on gauze. I don't want my most expensive labor on your website. Do know that either that free person come in and do it all for me. So is you know. I mean that. That's legit why am i painted on twenty five dollars an hour to save six cents on ause You know when the rep does all that stuff so how hard is how complicated. How much labor is it gonna take. That's my that's my biggest bill. Dan yeah and and at the valid Dow concern because some of the techniques that we've talked about and shown today you could go do manually With one of your team members surplus time. But you're right. It's probably not going to pay off well that's why you gotta have some automation. That's why that's why. Technology is well suited for for solving these types of problems but let the system do the the hard work of going and comparing pricing enforcing You know a budget controller things that you would normally have to do. Some extra hoop jumping manually. We're trying to do this with spreadsheets. Or paper. you know very few people have the stamina to keep keep up with that. So that's why that's why. Technology tool is a great solution for this. And that's and that's why many many other industries have adopted this type of approach in in in their procurement day today Range of savings that we're talking about and we've we've done this analysis so many times now for a typical one dentist practice with You know production in the million dollar one point one million dollar range. We're looking at thirteen to thirty five thousand dollars of savings to the bottom line. Every year by adopting solid procurement practices using using it to a technology platform. You know that that can that can very easily make up for some of the some of the labor shortage you may have in your practice and free up people's time to work on other things and still have a don't have new money coming to the bottom line if you don't have to produce by being more patients so i love your quote And your article. I post on god. We trust all others must bring data by w edwards deming and I don't know if you know the deming story. But he was the smartest business scientist of our time and after Japan was literally destroyed. Remember the united states is the only country that ever existed the drop to not one but two nuclear bombs on a civilization fill with men women and children and this i think that was humanities rock bottom and they felt bad and they sent w edwards deming to go there and clean it up and he totally. I mean to tell you how bad it was. My two older sisters left high school went straight to the nunnery and they had like three million japanese people change religion. Do you know how depressed you are. When you give up on your god. I mean it was rock bottom and went over there and said the look look. We're going to do data germany. The new americans did america. Got a gut feeling this. This'll sell he's guts or fill with fecal matter. We're going to be dated. You're having in god. We trust all others must bring data. I'm very excited that you know. My accounting company is Sage that used to be peachtree bought by sage and now they finally after just nagging autumn forever. They finally see this enormous gap in dentistry. I mean if you go to a dairy queen owned by warren buffet. Every of those managers the end of the day knows what his food costs. Thirty one percent is crew. Labor's fourteen percent yet is marketing. Five percent yada yada and he knows what his bottom line is for. My homies couldn't do that if you put a gun to their head but the dso's can do it and they're not doing it with ossoff off the shelf. Software steve thorne. He bought a copy of a dental practice management system under the understanding that he was gonna take it as a base. And then take it from there. I mean steve doerner pacific. I talk about genius. Extraordinary he knows down to the penny of what is cost are when i go to any dental office. Say okay. you're just said a cleaning examined bite wings. She's working decades. Does his eight times a day for ten years. Did you just make twelve dollars. Eighteen cents after taxes. Or you lose five bucks. He didn't even have a clue and then he'll say well. You think i should get another hygienist. And then it'll take me a day to sit down and paul this information and exiles reggie's to figure out exactly how many fulltime agency to have to go bankrupt because he's never made a dollar off of the cleaning and he doesn't even know that it's expensive root canals in crowns and implants and or cases that are subsidizing. All these cleanings fillings exams. Extra has done a loss to even back that up. I'll just say to them by the way how much. How much does a filling cost here for an emo o. d. composite on number three and he tells me a price. This is what's frightening. You'll sell me like two fifty. He doesn't even get to fifty firm and he signed up with twelve different. Ppo's and thinks he's only signed up with three because the contracts as they can sell this distribution list other providers so so he's doing a filling for twelve different prices. He doesn't even know what his break. Even point is to have this room for an hour. And and then and then he's mad at the dso's because they're growing at twice the rate and a zero sum game. They're growing if they've gone from zero to eighteen percent. And my lifetime. Where do you think that eighteen percent came from. I live in arizona ground zero for. Dso's because our governor did the right thing and that is the hospitals couldn't find nurses and it was easier to recruit nurses from ireland than it was from california because of the state boards and everything and they said. Are you out of your mind. So he passed the law said. Look if you're licensed engineer. Whatever dentists hygienists whatever your license in any state you're good in arizona. So we have the highest number of dennis working for a dsl which is eighteen out of every dennis. And there's five states that don't even have one percent and you know it's a very long tail but arizona is ground number one and i am amazed at calling centers i mean i've gone into the has-been call center my home. They don't record their phone calls. They don't do any office training they don't know how many people have to call before you can convert one to come in a chair of the. Gosh darn i get into my boss. Aspen dental they know they can convert like sixty eight percent. And if you're working for them and you're only converting about forty they keep training until you get to sixty or seventy or they let you go and my homeys their sports team to get rid of that wide receiver and put someone in there. That annette butter all over their hands. But he doesn't even measure his own. Most important employees in the whole company is incoming sales calls and outgoing cells. Calls them in a small business. That guy is the highest paid person. The cells guy is the only person who makes as much as the owner. I mean it's the guy comes in with suit and ties making the big box. And he's taken those calls and he's he's selling dentistry. It's like thank you for calling today's dental can you please hold. And you don't even know how many people went to hold these diaz. Oh by a practice. Because they'll they'll monitor it and they'll say oh my god eleven calls a day go to voicemail that are never even checked and he's selling this office for a dollar we already see. It's worth a dollar twenty five. And then they buy it for a dollar twenty. They buy it for a dollar there and a dollar twenty five and then they can go in there and offer. Solutions like your. Everything's you want to hang on. And i think this is the best thing they're going to get. We have to look at the legal profession. The lawyers million attorneys and a half of them worked for a big corporate group and a half for individuals. And i think this is where this market's gonna go so half. The dentist are going to be absorbed mocked up into the show and that and that's good for my grandchildren because it brings more competition before diaz to arizona. If you broke your tooth on a sunday you'd find three mermaids before. He found a dentists open to fix it and got proof on the back. End the emergency room. Eight and a half percent of all of their clientele is dont'a genyk origin. Because all my home user closed so immediately do see past sat down here now my grandchildren two of my six live here. Jaspers out in Good goodyear and And evelyn's out in patchy junction. And if i pass on. And they get bigger and breakthrough front off on a sunday on easter. They got a dentist to go to and the emergency rooms are insane. Because if i wanted there was a heart attack. They could do a bypass on me but they can't pull a tooth. What how how do you have an institution that can do a bypass and a brain surgery an amputated foot and they can't fix it tooth. I mean if that's just not that hadn't even make sense if i was gonna start a dsl. It'd be an emergency rooms all over america. Because i know everyone's close so the bottom line is do you. You gotta get sophisticated So my home right now. Wants to know where we're can they go to get a demo on this. I mean to see how hard how time consuming and by the way docks. I know you don't want to hear this. But you're going to hear because i'm not here to make a friend. I'm here to help you. And i'm not even help trending help you for your sake. I'm trying to help you for my grandchildren's sake. Okay this is all about me. My gosh You can't delegate something if you don't understand it you have to own it. I and when you completely own it then you can delegate a someone but you look at the greatest institutions ever built. Somebody started their own company for. Are they louis. A sandy. weill wouldn't got a job at at the bank in the mailroom thirty years later he was the ceo and as he walked all the way through all those agencies he automated modernize and that was the story of sandy weill and city group. And all that kind of stuff and his an. My banker is chase and jamie diamond was protege. So doc you gotta understand this. I and when you understand then you can delegate be. Don't tell me you can't even send out an insurance claim. Someone comes in for clean and x ray and you can't even bill insurance and then you're off to your fourteen hundred. Tm j. course and only one percent of your revenue is tm. J. dude get focused get focus. You got competition across the street. so how. dan tell meiomi how he's going to go to method. Usa and learn how this system works from eight izzy. Yeah the best resource on our website First of all would be about halfway down that main. Page it says. What can method procurement do for you. It's a quick video two minutes and you can learn a little bit about You know our our tool in our process our approach. That's why we called the company method till but it's also an approach. Okay can you email me that video file email kyle and we'll insert right now. Do you know where your dollars are. Being spent in your dental practice a busy dental practice has so many moving parts that having complete oversight tear expenses and spending can become impossible. What if there was a place where you could easily compare supply costs from multiple vendors to make sure you're getting the best prices a place where you could place orders from multiple vendors approved supplier requests track against your budget and manager inventory all in one platform so nothing slips through the cracks. Imagine how much money you could say well. Now that place exists not procurement. The method platform is designed to streamline all phases of your purchasing process are cloud based solution keeps you connected to your team suppliers financial assistance and the dental community with a single click condensing all these channels into one intuitive platform allows you to focus your attention on what's most important building your practice and increasing office. We have the expertise and technology takes to help you manage a formularies budget and inventory from a single dashboard from a comprehensive dental supply. Padlock to a customized cost. Comparison tool find supplies for your dental practice has never been simpler team. Members can manage all items from every supplier in the single workflow method. Also alerts your team when stock is low and it's time to reorder ensuring that you'll always have your most critical supplies on hand. Method procurement transform. Your spend and inventory management to improve your bottom line and save your practice money interested schedule. A demo or free cost savings analysis at www dot method usa dot com to see how we can help your practice. Our method your success so now two minutes later He's done. He's having a cigarette. And then what. Yep so you got two options either. Either you can request a demo from from us and we'll make it personalized to you so you can ask those questions that are that are bugging you about how i going to do this. Do you support that. And then that's that's really where the rubber hits. The road is in a personalized demo. And we do those all week every every day of the week. Then the other thing would be. We have a return on investment calculator. So it's method usa dot com. We'll give you this link howard slash our ally and you're gonna put your production in there and we will compute for us. The range of savings that we believe is possible. Now obviously it's it's it's it's a benchmark it's a it's a heuristic We can get to know you better and refined that but we talk about your overhead with your profitability. We talk about how we drive the savings to the bottom line. You release it to yourself to understand what what the dollar's would look like for your particular situation and that's at that return on investment of rs page just went there and i'm going to. I'm going to up the ante on your man. I'm gonna put some pressure on you. I'm gonna this to you and my office manager dawn and again she's been with me. She's been hired. Don the dead sea was just sick. i just had a slight fever and I want to see what she thinks about this. Because this is where. I can add a lot of value to these Podcast because i you know i i called you. You didn't call me. And i think You know we give them good advice. So i emailed you that. So you got don's contacts. I want to figure this out. And say i want to figure this out. Even though some some dennis all called me on my son knows. I heard you seventy to seven. Yeah i'm a millionaire. I'm fifty nine years old this year. I was born in sixty two. Yeah i admit i'm old. I'm fat. I'm lazy but man when i opened up my office in eighty seven seven two seven seven days a week until pastor don snyder across the street he just passed away Last year right before the pandemic came over and said that he is hearing birsh nurse at his lutheran church. Not happy with the fact that. I'm open on sunday now. I kinda think some of it had to do with the parking too because ours is big day and he loved all the partying but but he he sat down and he explained to me. He said like this. I know. I know you're as calvin i'm losing all this but every religion figured out first of all this really cool. They all figured out seven days. You know why every culture i mean even the malvo indian reservation on this side of the other side of the earth had a seven day week to chinese the indians babylon you know why they all had seven day. Workweek seventy week because they saw the was the background fixed star deals right. The big dipper. All these thing. The big dipper even seven point But they also the background but there were seven celestial objects will going around that they thought were watching him. And we're godson god's moon gods mercury venus and there just seven things flying around and they all came to conclusion that those those are what's watching us every civilization decided on seven days because of the slot seven celestial objects and they they also agreed on sabbath. The muslims islam took off friday. Judaism took off saturday. Christians took off sunday. Be said dude for your own sake your own house your own patients your unemployment at you need a damn day off and i was like twenty four piss and vinegar bouncing off the walls of energy i mean i just live for another toothache and so we closed on sunday pastor don. He convinced me that when he convinced me that five thousand years of humans decided you need to take a day off every week end of story. I said you're right. How do you disagree with five thousand years of all the humans You know so So i i did that but anyway. I can't believe that was fast as our we've ever gone. But is dan the man you're lasting trial the you're a hoosier trial that that's german isn't it. It is mostly german and my ancestors were traders of wine so traumas grape in germany seriously. That's the tie that is so cool. I love name origin nation. 'cause i've lectured in fifty countries and it's just neat but it seems like like you said most names go back to blacksmith. Go back to what you did. And so you come from a long line of y nose and grape growers and winemakers iran means baker and lebanon and some lebanese guy Loss ended up in ireland for a few generations of redheads. and here i am And brad is my favorite dill. I mean bread and butter is my favorite part of any meal But the first licensed just like the first glass of wine. It's just a warm up My gosh and and it all comes down to w edwards deming and i'll tell you what about deming while you're sitting over here in america and the oscars and the grammys and what other words yours oscars for movies. Grammy's what's the one for emi's tony's and and you make a pinto okay. You go over to japan and they have the w. edwards demming award and more japanese. Watch that while you're all obsessing on fears and and queen fatigue and all all these things like that they're like this girl won it because she figured out how to do something faster easier higher qualities lower prize and all the other engineers were in all of her intellectual. Genius does and that's why all my cars are in our japanese or germans two countries and know how to make a damn car. You buy an american car. When i bought my button into chevy suburbans looking back i think they should have came with a mechanic. Just lives in the back seat. And and so he's always there and homeys if you want to you your your four corrode. You're either going to say look. I'm a chef. I just wanna work. I just want to be the head. Chef at the hyatt regency and all work for the high regency. And that's fine because there's two types of people you like to give orders to take orders and a lot of dennis. I don't like to take orders and we look at lawyers. It's it's half and two out of three dennis at these. Dso's not just here but the only two countries where they're publicly traded. There's two and australia one three hundred. Ns in pacific smiles there's one in singapore. Who's probably the only other billionaire. Other than rick workman here in america is just racing across china and they got four patients to work with everyone. Rick scott they all know their numbers. They know their numbers and two out of three of their dentists are all women because women marry upwards economically. You're not a woman. Dentist married the guy who mops floors at The waffle house that closed. But my god if you were in their one o'clock in the morning liquor up and you saw some girl mopping the floors. It was the best liberal you'd ever seen. You'd marry her in a second so the women dennis they marry up they make ten thousand a month and a lot of them. Just say you know what. My husband's an oral surgeon banker. He's a finance guy a physician. He's lawyer whatever. I wanna do the dental thing. But i don't wanna do all this stuff. I don't want to figure out supply procurement and marketing and advertising and and try to lead a team. You know a lot of these. You'll say. I don't want to lead a team of five people. I don't wanna do it it's preference. It's not right or wrong right or wrong as in religion in science. It's not right or wrong. It's a tradeoff. Well here's the advantage and disadvantage up down. Left right forward back. What are your trade offs and the trade offs are that half the you are going to end up in the next generation now. They've already given up the rural because they can't doctors out there and the offices they have out there in the rural on any given day ten percent underneath doc in the box. They're not doing that. Because you come out of school single and the number one drive of a species is to mix game mites with another primate. And you're not going to away with a thousand people when you could go to phoenix metro. Three point eight million to find a mate for life Like docs ducks. Pick one person mate for life. Your odds aren't very good in illinois. So you're going to go to the big city so the dso's have already giving you the whole rural matt might be all you get. That might be all you get. Because you don't know your numbers so i use peachtree. That's very exciting and sage which bought peachtree. They're out of london and they're finally getting on board because so many people look at the dental industry. It's literally ridiculous isn't it. It's a cottage industry and cottage industries when nobody owns one percent of the market. When you go to walmart and you see sixty thousand skews did you know like eighty percent of them come from nine companies. I mean that's a mature market. You look at autos when lee iacocca had is one. Great idea of the minivan had that year the next year all other tend partners rolled out the minivan. Okay that's a competitive industry. We're in a cottage industry. Were not one person has one percent of the market and with two hundred thousand dentists license hundred and fifty thousand thirty hours a week or more general than thirty thousand thirty jars week more especially so it's about one hundred eighty thousand about one hundred and eighty seven thousand offices. Let's not be rude. Let's just make it easy math. There's two hundred thousand dentists in america. There's two million dennis around the world and half the you the choice yours you wanna give give orders or take orders if you want to give orders you gotta know your numbers and i don't care what you believe is right or wrong. And i don't care about all your pontificating want to see the math and if you don't have massive just want to sit on the couch and do shots jamison and bullshit all night all do it. If you're playing music from the seventies none of they haven't made one good song past the year. two thousand. Four boys are living proof of that. They always try to turn onto this stuff. But when i go to their house and i get there it's so cool you go into the back and whatever. Yeah they're jamming out to seventies music. I they got the police going in the rolling stones. And i never i never ever walk in on them and hear some bone from the two thousand and on but dude look no. Your numbers are get a job fair enough. Does that pretty much it. Dan know your numbers or get a job. Because if you don't know your numbers your job is fleeting and it'll be okay. We can help people. there's numbers that's what we're here for. Yep i know it and Thanks so much for on the show. And i hope you want you and log onto dental town where i posted that on a thread and i'm going to post that podcast there and we put it on the podcast section. By the way. I want to tell you. The podcast section. We're up to Seventy five dental podcasts. On dental town. I got the data There's two hundred seventy five thousand. Dennis for sure on the website but seventy thousand downloaded the app and it's not just my my show. I mean it's all these shows i mean. It's digi connect the productive. Dentistry bob beard. It's the auditory podcasts. The dentist freedom blueprint a wealth ability. Show by an accountant. He used to be my accountant until he got so big and famous and ritchie. Too big for us we got. We got a podcast actually called the deals for dennis is actually supply dental supply back in deal mode that we just talked about. It's not how warren buffett would do it we got to everyday practices. Podcast to the nominees. Love that one behind the smiles at gina door fund. Oh my god if you're if you're in dental kindergarten school and you're a female and you want a female role model if gina dorfman. I mean that girl i mean. She is amazing. I mean her office musing with siri. The jaw law podcasts for staying out of the dental experience. you know. there's just a ton of them on there. But man dan. The man thinks coming on the show. I hope your post on dental town Answer their questions and a best to lock making my home as be able to compete with the big boys at the. Dso's looking forward to being part of the community as we as we grow and get to know more denis. So thank you so much howard. It was a blast final question. Tell me about the. Why is your twitter. Name indy indy. Well born and bred indianapolis. I'm a. I'm a diehard indycar fan. Besta best motor sports in the world. And just remember every memorial day you'll find at the motor speedway that's the having having on earth for me. I've always. that's that's one thing i've never done but i'll tell you why them on. I'll do it you got. I mean my gosh And thank you thank you so much. I got twenty seven thousand four hundred followers on twitter. Now grant them. There were older dentist. The young ones are all on instagram. Rab twenty thousand dollars but my gosh. We'll tweet this out to our twenty seven thousand Followers on twitter. Thank you for that. And we'll We'll tag you as in detroit job and and thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you a real pleasure. Look forward to continuing to interact with you. And someday i am going to try to hit. You have to help me. Get some tickets at indy. Five hundred. I wanna see that someday. Hey there's always room you got you got two hundred fifty thousand of your closest friends. There's always room for one more. All right buddy have a great day. You too thanks. Hey doctors are you overpaying. Up front for clear liners. Are you settling for poor support. And unexpected refinements ortho snaps technology delivers the most precise clearest liner at the lowest cost. And you only pay for the liners. You're patient uses get comprehensive clinical support with ortho snap the most affordable and clearest liner on the market. Today stop over. Paying ensure patient outcomes visit ortho snap dot com slash clear. Does dental tone members get a five hundred dollars credit for your first patient. That's ortho snap dot com slash clear.

Dan daniel michael ernst young irs taylor marie chuck cohen benko bengo maud shams Usa patterson bernie marcus dennis pete youtube
Mad Money w/Jim Cramer 02/04/19

MAD MONEY W/ JIM CRAMER

45:12 min | 2 years ago

Mad Money w/Jim Cramer 02/04/19

"My mission is simple to make you money on here to level the playing field, all investors. There's always a bulwark at summer, and I promised to help you find it may have money starts out. Crater wall could a mad money, welcome. The Kramer viewpoint to make friends of just trying to make some money. My job is just entertainment educate and teach you so call me at one eight hundred seven with three CBC or tweet me at Tim Kramer. Boy, this Mark has got some real memory and impulse control issues when it comes to tech. That's how you get a day like today with the Dow climbing one hundred and seventy five points as advancing point six eight percent. The NASDAQ gaining one point one five percent, look, I'm not saying the stock forget is your case of attention deficit disorder. That's wrong with that. But when you look up the symptoms, attention difficulty hyperactivity impulsiveness that's perfect description for the action in the tech stocks this earning season. Just look at the ones that rallied today. Let's start with AP at the beginning. Your apple pre-announced a weak quarter? I mean, wow. And it was primarily, of course, because of cell phones gigantic decline in Chinese iphone sales that caused a major free. Cal. And the stock briefly traded down to ten six years. And he says Ted does as usual, I said own it, don't trade it. But you know, what people did? Then on January with the stock at one hundred fifty dollars down thirty five percent from its early October highs. I sit down with CEO Tim cook. And yet line all the long-term positives that apple has going forward, especially all the health and wellness applications for the new watch cook at very clear that once again you bitch about apple. We're totally premature the stock had been incorrectly written off, and that's when you want to buyer. Sure enough when apple Puerto last week, Tim made a point of telling me and just slipped, and it sales were better in January that made me believe the stock you put in a bottomless the trumpeter spatial breaks off its trade talks with China as that's still a major piece of business on the conference. Call cook made it crystal clear that outside of China. Apple sales wreck Solent, although it's very hard to see because of the strong dollar. They said the watch was supply constraint. Hey, high quality problem, but the potential benefits to the healthcare system on there. So obvious apple so later fears about the service revenue stream somewhere that it was slowing, but it prima Maine. Very robust. Now this one in J P Morgan publishing no pointing to a bunch of potential acquisitions potential being the operative word that could keep apple service dream growing. We want that to happen. If you're long at activision blizzard Sonus networks, they were the most prominent suggestions, I got him. It kind of caught me by surprise. I pushed hard for apple to buy. Netflix was trading at twenty five bucks. They didn't want to do it. Then I doubt they went to three hundred fifty one dollars. How about activists the video game kingpins had a series, of course. And I can't think of reason why apple align themselves with activists declining business or the broader video game industry, which also appears to be slow hanging. Dave numbers Sony last night. So no Sonal semi come on. Does that move the needle? No, I think idea of acquiring a home sound system company for a couple of billion dollars would be very poorly perceived kind of like, the I think that the headphones were pulling preceding somebody even view this desperate and Apple's not desperate at all regular viewers know, how I feel about this one that wants to grow at service revenue stream, I think it should double down. Healthcare. I want them to buy whatever companies they need. So that I can have all my medical records, mold different hospitals. Oh, this device given that apple stock is up more than twenty bucks since we spoke to Tim cook. I sure hope that something's going on here. Besides the possibility a positive trait talks. We saw the same kind of whiplash behavior in the stock Facebook before the social media titan toward it conventional wisdom was that the users turned on Facebook. I buffet behavior. There was a feeling. This was a failed place to come the sense of community going awry, the headlines unrelentingly negative and to be fair. They deserve the bad publicity. Yes. Facebook did a lot of shady stuff. But when we saw the numbers, we realize, well, it didn't matter to the people who do matter which of the users more than two billion people use some form of Facebook every day, the advertisers loved them. It seems more than ever you may hate Facebook. I think a lot of people do, but it's not going anywhere. This ain't my space. Facebook's not a social network. It's d- social network. Instagram's stories is the hot product and. It stock turned out to be niece steel in the tech group. That is often I like to re conference calls vacuum. I don't try to pay attention to how the stock VX. So I can ride my own independent judgement before I see all the stocks down must have been a bad. Call. Right. So last week I read the transcript Mark softcore in evacue. I saw tremendous growth in Azure, cloud platform. However, I also read that a chip shortage put a criminal copies personal computer business, which kept them from their numbers. Now, I've been following that chip shortage for Intel phrases, it's be look at Intel. I look at AMD as Inc supposing gaming company. I'm close to this trying to build a national game sites. Nobody seems to get the chips that they need. They need the chips for their dreams to come true. So the chip is shoes wasn't surprising. Some though it's surprised that people owned by resort. Which is why they unsown sleep bail out on it to me. That's huge mistake. You shouldn't sell Mike Salk because of his temporary short-term issue. When the long-term story, particularly, Azure is so strong shirt off the stock rally nicely today and how about Amazon. Seven bucks after it's hideous almost one hundred point climb Friday. This one is tougher. There were two things that brought out sellers here. The new in India that seemed designed to hinder Amazon and WalMart split card and worries it because Martins in the b- till businessman, Pete, no one seemed to notice dominance of Amazon's web services member that that was supposed to matter. No one cared about the growth of the advertising because that was just a matter the sellers were focused solely on the retail margins. Name son's inability to make up the difference by raising the price of priming because just did I think Amazon's like the patriots two years ago. The pats beat falcons then last year they lost a heartbreaker to my beloved Ingle eagles, then they want again last night in a tour divorce albeit boring game. Do you think that Bill chick just kept seeing game plan that you use the eagles this year? Of course, not. So why would you assume that Jeff basis won't change his game plan, go up something new hill adjusted gross margin pressure? He'll figure out another way to win. That's what he does. But you're not giving many credit with the stock if these. Of course, that does require patients something that's real short supply of this market. But that's good news for aliens boring to think won't term and by high quality stocks into week is let me throw one more at UK alphabet. Now, here's a company that's coining money. There's always something wrong. We think key metric that ends up driving operating margins down, even as they beat the top. And tonight the bottom line. This doc thing gets clobbered the technicians declare a head and shoulders top and things they ugly for a couple of weeks. And then announces some exciting innovation. It's off to the races again helped by gigantic stunt by back if you can sell alphabet now, it's Chico G L. But if you can sell it down ten and buy back down twenty-five doctors, they'll do that all day others. Why don't you own it stopped renting it every quarter? Take a look what it's done over the last ten years the bottom line, everyone who dumped out apple or Facebook or Microsoft early this earning season. Now is a serious case of sellers remorse. I think the same could be the case with Amazon and alphabet. Soon to don't be distracted by short term problems. They can vanish overnight like we solve with these winners focused on the long term and the next time. One of these terrific stock sells off, then you know, it's time to buy not sell. Rick in Arizona. Rick Adrian, and thanks for taking my call. Of course, am thinking or something unholy about the escalating equity prices within the cell phone chip sector. I'm hoping you can provide a more intelligent explanation. Okay. The phone ships that fires of her guidance and our live near results of apples last quarter right at their prices are still had upward against common. Logic for skyward solution is there enough internet of things and other non phone device demands out their support skywards current vice uptrend from the mid November live. Well, I it's a great question. Where can I would tell you? Why sky works is going up is not what you think which is going up because it's great five G play and people feel that all week this and. Apples in the stock. But none of the five G is in the stock. So that's what people on it. It does seem. I think come down enough that you can that you can certainly buy the stock and then by some more if it goes lower. Let's go to Joe and Michigan, please general Jill. Are you a senior in college, and I'm working on my senior valuation project. Okay. Yeah. I was just wondering what your thoughts are about the company's going forward. A little concerned the company down eleven percent this year after they reported fourth quarter, earnings and management came out lower dice appointing nineteen also concerned looking at the balance sheet, they're pretty heavy company after their exhibition of Frenchies and Franks should be concerned going forward for McKesson. Mccormack? I like the Cormack down here. It ran too much. It was considered to be disappointing. They did not have the growth that. I'd like I think the stocks in the penalty box. Frankly, let's go to Alexander jersey. Police Alex from the short how you doing man just talk jersey shore extensively this weekend. I'm good. How about you? I'm doing. All right. I'm gonna give you a second opinion on a stock. That's all right. Sure. All right. This back was on a study up sharing one burger Shire Hathaway announcing took a position in it. But it's been on the heavy downturn recently, especially since it required a sorry acquire Pandora radio. Sirius XM ticker s I r I what do you think about? I I it is clearly stalled I still like the product. I still think it's good. I think the Pandora acquisition. I let me do this. I'd like them to come one. I've not liked it since the Pandora acquisition. And I did like it. Yes. You know for two three four five six, but this pin door acquisitions got me flunks. They have to come on. Explain it to me. It's gonna add in Virginia. Please Ed gave Jim here's question. Ten and diabetes. He really priced over two hundred though, the two fifty animus closed doors. No tandem is picking up there. We're the left off in opening up markets overseas. Do you think ten we'll reach two hundred again, I don't know. I think China is a very good copy. I don't get back to two hundred by the way, when I talk about what the what apple could buy that would really help them in healthcare segment. I mistakenly neglected that if they could somehow do a merger with decks that would be really unbelievable to all right. The market can't stay focused which produces dailies. Hey, it's easy to forget. Why you soul, but it's it's really key to remember the people who are selling out. But now we'll try to buy back twenty five points. Or now, I think that's going to be hard to do. It's it's just a difficult thing to do, especially if the company that good money type, you'll probably have its products in Japan should right now. But if today's earnings can help you clean up in this market, why exclusive with the CEO just edit. What a great stock today. Then you know, what they say powerful tree is rise to strong branches. I'm telling you sales forces dominance in text base spans beyond the company said. And in this lines become a household word. But as the line technology pricing for competition a line the company adverts recent decline, so stay with Kramer. Don't miss a second of mad money. Follow at Jim Cramer on Twitter. I have a question. Tweet Gramer has tag mad tweets sin. Jim Email to mad money at CNBC dot com or give us a call at one eight hundred seven four three CNBC miss something Ed to med money. Dutt CNBC dot com. Hey, I'm John Harwood host of CNBC Speakeasy podcast. Listen into my in-depth conversations with political decision-makers, folks. Like, John Delaney, the first declared democratic presidential candidate for election twenty twenty along with Senator Sherrod Brown. Senator Elizabeth Warren and Stephanie shrieks of Emily's list. Those interviews and more on the Speakeasy podcast subscribed today. Last week. I told you that when the stocks of high quality company so off we into earnings they become a coil springs ready to jump higher. Good news. And that's exactly what happened to Cork's today it to point back over the previous couple of weeks as money as money rotated out of defensive consumer packaged. Good stocks. This thing was primed were higher. If they gave you a good number. Sure. Enough. Put it in nice. Tencent earnings beat off a dollar thirty basis with inland revenue and solid guides management was able to cut costs and raise prices in order to post its mortgage posts its margins gotta taste him. That's precisely what we were looking for a boost in no wonder, the stock serves eight dollars fifty cents or five point six nine percent today can keep climbing. Let's take a closer look Begnaud door. The chairman CEO of core ox, get a better read of report and wears companies headed mission door. Welcome back to money. Thank you. Jim. It's good to be back. Oh, I've been it looks like a combination of innovation and tremendous marketing and also just a lot of cost cutting which you know, you're great game. You that return that you predicted when people were concerned earlier last year you predicted it could all come together. This was the quarterback Kim together. It wasn't it. This is a strong quarter for Clorox with fall percents sales, growth and importantly, a return to gross margin expansion, which is so important to us. We leaned into pricing to offset cost increases very aggressively. And that's been paying off for shareholders. Which is why we have been able to confirm our sales and earnings outlook were on track for another strong fiscal year. And we're also confident in ability to continue to drive shareholder return in the long term. I still how does it work better your number one or two most one every single category resin prices really played havoc. So you get price. Now, I know from the resin copies that I deal with resins coming down a bit you won't roll back price because you're number one and the customers love your product. So does that just mean for the rest of the year, we're gonna see bigger and bigger expansion? Well, you know cost increases were really just price increases, but cost justified and that's still to today. We have a lot of costs resin and others that are up, and we have a lot of leading brands that consumers love that offer strong value to consumers, which is why we took pricing confidently, and it's going well, and that's a key reason why we're able to grow gross margin again. And why we're able to put ourselves in a position to have another strong fiscal year for shareholders, I was kind of be I know you have about seventy percent of your national everyone else has really been whacked by the the incredibly strong dollar. But I didn't really see it. When I went over your numbers. And I think that's a good sign because I do see it and pretty much everybody else's numbers. Currencies was a big factor for us. We grew eight percent in a currency neutral terms, but we had a sixteen point sales headwinds in international. But in the national is only seventeen percents of business, which is why as a whole company has done. So well, we continue to invest in the US that's a home turf. That's where a particularly strong and while it's not an easy market to do business either. It's a very strong and solid and stable market. And the consumer overall isn't a good shape. A category is growing, and we're winning with the consumer in the US that's been a history. And that's how future and we like to invest in the US. And that's a big reason why we're doing so. Well, right now, I love the growth in verse fees. I loved the tremendous growth in the in the pipeline from the fiscal year twenty eighteen but I was confused than about the renew life decline and the category. Given the. That I now see you in a major drugstore chain. I didn't use to see you. Reader life. We have some work to do reading life was down in the quarter. But we're seeing a lot of green shoots right now. We're growing market share for the first time in two years with the largest customer in the natural channel. We'll also growing in ecommerce for going double digits, and we're growing market share in that channel that is the fastest growing channel in this business. And importantly now that we have made the neutral next acquisition also in vitamins minerals supplements, we're able to merchandise renew lives together with those other brands creating merchandising scale, and that is giving us lifts up to two x and partially even more. So you know, some greet shoots on renew life with more work to do. But it's a very solid business. It's a very strong consumer need. We have a differentiated brand with differentiated technology and a lot of hope and confidence in that business for the future. Now, the new products that she coming. There's a tremendous burst bee's body wash. Obviously, I you this year H fee are ready to. To eat dips. What's in those? Yeah. You know, hidden valley is such a great brand and in hidden valley. There's really only a question. Do you love it or do you really love? It's and we're now giving consumers more reasons to really love hidden valley. If you think about hidden valley historically competed in the cell addressing category, that's a two billion dollar category and were the market leader there. But today about seventy percent of all the consumer uses outside salad dressing. They use it as a condiment chicken wings pizza, healthy snacks with salads vegetables. And the deepening category is another two billion dollar kademi. That's going at a six percent clip and essentially doing is giving consumers more access to hidden valley and giving them new ways of eating the hidden valley that they love. So this is a great new innovation with three flavors ready to eat dips from. Hidden valley, it's customer reception. So far has been very positive and early signs in the market out too. So more ways for consumers to love hidden valley and more ways to grow for the clocks, come up. What a great idea now last question to get ecommerce you've been the best in terms of seeing where the customer is. You're just continuing to put more dollars is that a Google Facebook. Is it just a combination of everything because that point that point of purchases so amazing as the place to be? You come in on the child is a very important part of the future in our business. And as Clorox we're investing very aggressively in its we're continuing to see very strong growth on the ecommerce sale side. It'll be about eight percents of sales total company sales this fiscal year, which I think is an industry leading level. And we're all also I think the only company in space that's investing the majority of a marketing dollars right now online, but that's in social or in other areas. So we're investing with confidence because the returns us strong. So we'll keep doing it and stay in. The course knowing that that's a big part of the future now industry. Well, congratulations on the great quarter of which again you predict to our viewers. Good to see you, sir. That's Begnaud Dory's chairman seal floor. Thank you so much. Thank you. Jim. Now that the most boring supper ethic Super Bowl in history is behind us teams already. We shopping the coaches in preparation for the next season. And that's what I want to focus on tonight because coaching a whole football team isn't a whole lot different from running a publicly traded company principles. Zack Taylor the thirty five year old quarterbacks coach the rims which just aimed head coach for the Cincinnati Bengals. If you don't fall football. Let's each promotion, especially for young guy doesn't really have a lengthy resume. But true football fans recognized that this higher is less about Taylor himself and more about as boss. The Rams head coach Sean McVay who cut his team to the Super Bowl in the second year of the job. He's thirty three the Mississippi and the Bengals are hiring one of his lieutenants because they believe in the McVay coaching tree. They believe in the pedigree. Hey, singular, former patriots linebacker coach Bryan floors. He just near the dolphins. Coaching job and assistant coach taught by Bill Belichick is a coach that you might want to hire. The coaching tree is a pretty simple concept. If you hard top assistant coaches who've learned firsthand from the most successful leaders in the game, they'll be able to take that knowledge with them. So why the heck am I talking about this? Because whenever I hear some commentators talk about the NFL coaching tree. I think to myself. Why can't we apply the same analysis to the business world? What if it could help us pick winning stocks? We know that there are some incredible CEO's out there who in addition to creating Norma survey for the shareholders have also trained some very impressive disciples inevitably some of these disciples leave to run companies of their own over time. What you get is executive trees, and we're to the NFL coaching tree. Particu JP Morgan Steve diamond has been terrific incubator talent diamond himself, actually represents one bench. The sandy Weill executive Trie because the legendary former city group CEO is the one who trained him eventually the relationships our diamond ended up at J P M, and it became competitors. They're like the Bill Belichick and built ourselves of the financial industry. In recent years diamonds, and Jacob trees really exploded, you got his tents all over the place. I just Staley the CO Barclays Frank Bisignano. This you have first aid who just told us companies Pfizer Michael Cavs, a card CFO Comcast parent company of this network. Hey, that's very impressive. But the best executive tree I can think of descends from that of Mark Baena this year, a founder chairman and CEO of Salesforce dot com, regular viewers, Ori know-how Salesforce, revolutionize the enterprise software industry. Heavy practically embedded the software as a service model. That's now become so you because since stock has become a spectacular long-term performer. Another great move today, by the way, that whole the all of our cloud kings had a gigantic, boo. However, what you may not know is that Mark Benny house cut, a real knack for fostering talent considered as grad school. And what is the tenants move on to run other companies? They have a habit of delivering some incredible performance for their investors themselves when it comes to Benny offs executive tree. There are four main branches. I you've got. Teams zoo who was Salesforce dot com's eleventh employees, the first cheap bore. You of certain it's chief strategy officer, it just spending nine years, they're zoo lead left to found his opus Zora, which just came publicly staple. Oh, this is a great story at sales for teen realized that subscription cod. And would be the next big thing. These days. Everybody wants to turn their price into a subscription service for nice steady revenue. Great article today in the top about how if you don't have a sub business you really hurt that Abbas is not so great. So sue created Zora that is a company that helps other businesses launch managing grow their subscription services. Hey, we got a bunch of them at the street, including my travel to us which you can follow along by the action was plus dot com club and Sora helps us optimize all of that. They do great job. Now Zora stock up pummeled in the second half of last year. Like every other cloud play. But it's already moved down to Julie forty percent from Mississippi lows. And I think it's got a lot more room to run. Remember teams who literally wrote the book on this economy called subscribed and the numbers here have been downright incredible. I don't wanna diminish zoos own. Accomplishments? But he had a brilliant idea. It's really, oh, I I drove me attention to it as corporate pedigree, the benef- executive tree. It's one of the reasons I've been such a big believer Zora. I don't like that. Goldman Sachs seller condition nowadays seem this place to me next branch in the tree Peter gassner. He's the faddem see Viva systems who used to be Salesforce dot com senior vice president technology, we help build their whole platform. Here's another great example of a Salesforce could plying his experience to a new industry even makes cloud-based over for the pharma biotech and life science industry, it dominates their platform helps pharmaceutical sales reps become more effective captures clinical trial data and makes it easier for the clients to comply with government regulations, which we know there's a ton. Now, we've been recommending this stock fridges, and it's been a huge winner up more than three hundred seventy percent over the past three years. This a stain long-term growth has been phenomenal. There were a lot of shorts were all over it. They got crushed much lakes. Well, Salesforce dot com gaseous Bob background as a Benny of acolyte was among the reasons I started reckon. Ages ago and stuck with it. Despite the Schwartz all over it. In fact, the first time we spoke with him wasn't Salesforce dot com's annual dream force conference in two thousand thirteen we always go out to that. I'm still a believer. Although with the stock baking new all time high. I mean, look sure, of course, we'd pull by the third bench tree. Well, you probably might from view this face just watching it. It's Todd McKinnon the co founder and CEO of Octo KT who served as the head of engineering it sales worse for more than five years as the company grew from handling two million transactions day two hundred and fifty million Optus, another cloud based software company that helps others businesses. Protect their networks from hackers. They handle everything that related to their logging verification cleaners using passwords your mother's maiden the whole nine yards. Listen to what he told us. The last time we spoke to him just a couple of weeks ago. I worked at Salesforce. It's not a coincidence. I worked Salesforce for six years. I basically learned the ropes of cloud computing for Mark and the entire team at Salesforce. And so it's not it's not a shock that. There's a lot of similarities there. Okay. This growth has been explosive. I like octaves whenever cloud Princess and the stocks Choubey Padre quintupled doing quintuplets his came in April twenty-seventh. Well, it got slammed like everything else in the fourth quarter. It's made him breakfast recovery. And it's been setting fresh all time highs in the past few weeks autism. No, the company I'd door when I think you should wait for pullback if you don't already own the stock fondly, there's twi- Leo w where the cheap operating officer, George, Hugh, h you also serves a COO and chief marketing officer at Salesforce among a bunch of other roles yet when he was when he was at Salesforce, I'm sorry while twilla wasn't actually found founded by Salesforce alone. He's done a terrific job is CEO. And it's not hard to see. How is experiences helped the company advances mission of helping other businesses connect with their customers? Member twist platform is what allows your Lubar driver to call or text you when they're about to pick you up. Sure enough, the stock Israeli more than two hundred fifty percents since George you. Join the company and more. Twenty sixteen minutes leaving toys team interleaving Salesforce. And now the wind for the venue executive tree bottom line this time. You hear about the concept of the coaching tree in the NFL. Remember the same rules can apply to the business world when you're trying to pick stocks look for networks of executives who've learned from the best because we see with the former disciples of a guy like Mark Benny off at Salesforce. They can give you some fabulous gains. Let's go to Hank in Texas hag, but boo up from the spark MC city, Corpus Christi, Texas. Will they go? It's right where all the oil and plastics action is how can I help? Oh, believe in them in. So I I call a longtime listener my name is Jacob twenty nine years old. And I'm calling about tesla. They probably have to pay about nine hundred twenty million dollars in debt with cast to get that high there CFO's turning over a little bit down during the winter, of course, on the other hand between Europe and China sales are probably coming up with a long term. Maybe even have a trade deal maximum batteries, and they're making deals more Charlie stations. What do you think? I think the Tesla's such a battleground it's just too hard for me to appoint people the corner loved to stop people don't wanna hate the stock the balance sheet is bad, but they have a lot of cash from that last few quarters. But people don't believe I mean, it's just too hard. I it's not become one call on a shots like like, canopy, let Kronos. But I can't do this one the coaching tree lives in applies to the business world look for networks big sex who've learned from the best much money at a line technology was once Darlie, but could investment in the company will crooked smile, I'm giving you my cake, then just send me just pace the wicked witch of the west affect I'll tell you throwing water on the could have the melting and all your calls rapid fire. Tonight's live in round so stay with Kramer. Tomorrow kickoff. The trading day was squawk on the street. Live from post nine at the NYSE ridiculous taste that corn said this is that I'm not that intrigued anymore. So, of course, people men to the course. Yeah. I liked your beer until I saw the till? I didn't know is it all starts at nine AM eastern. You should never ever fall in love with a stock stock should piece of paper, not people. You can't let yourself become too attached. Because sooner or later, it will be time to so that's especially true for red hot quo stocks which always come with what we call it. An expiration day. Take a line technologies. Make of invisible line the clear removal braces, the gods of the people want their T straightened without needing to walk around with a mouthful of metal. Haven't pound the table, miss Stockbridge. Isn't aids case have been gigantic align was practically a permanent fixture in the list of of best performing stocks in the five hundred two years ago. It was trading in the high double digits now. It's two hundred forty four. However, the fourth quarter was absolutely poodle for one dollars during a time. When investors were already scared. The company reported disturbing quarter the cost the stock to plummet in late September. This thing was trading at nearly four hundred dollars by January. What was it one hundred seventy seven? This is what happens when it quotes stock looks like it's losing its mo- job. But when ally reported again last week, even though the numbers weren't that great the stock actually rallied after nearly getting hit normally wanna see us dot go higher on TV is that tells me that we've arrived at a bottle to sell. That's not the case this time, if you still to want technologies, I need you to listen to me, I think it should actually unload some of your position because they do not like where I think this company could be headed. You always want to be wary of trying to call the bottom. And of course, dot that suddenly fallen out of favor with the Wall Street fashion show because if the growth keeps declining the downside could be enormous. Investors will pay a lot more for companies earning stream than value. Investors will which means something like align. Could have a lot more downside if the growth-oriented money measures lose interest. Why am I so worried about a launch prospects if elected stock for so long one word competition? For most of us exists. It's just company had an effective monopoly. Not horrible braces. If you went clear movable teeth strangers that no one else could even notice. Well in Llamas like Kleenex, just invisible, I'm was only standard. That's just the goal standard. So coming made itself, a fortune, the stocks skyrocketed stratosphere, of course, business boys. Good but in late twenty seventeen about forty of lines patents expired, suddenly cheaper competitors. Enter the market. And that's exactly what happened. This line is no one with you on gaming ten three m has been investing heavily in their own clarity, align here's three m big brand name trying to get a bigger piece of the dental business raised their margins. If they do a CFO nNcholas gang stead said on the conference call this week, our three m clarity clear trae aligns launch continues to build momentum. Holy cow. That's something. Which one here if you're a shareholder of a line. Meanwhile, German company called drowning has been getting a lot of traction from tenses as opposed to the with its own competing. Member dentists needs something else in their arsenal. Clear. Connect is their product Danna recently wants their own version to as to ten plus the Ruina does run a Danaher Strahl. It's too much physically with three NBA involve now line still told basic Denison worth Donald Stewart from there with Islam. There's still the biggest in space. They still have the first move advantage. Maybe it's an ain't broke don't fix the situation. But there's an enormous difference between being the only company is so clear braces. I mean, one of several companies tells through braces, I think it's day nothing Wrexham workers like newfound competition. Sure. This is exactly what we've seen from aligns numbers. When the cub reporter those heinous numbers in October. What was the problem? It wasn't the sales of the earnings which both came in slightly higher than expected, although admittedly. This was a line. Smallest beaten ages know, the problem with a quarter was the average selling prices turns out, even though invisible on vibes for fabulous. The average selling prices were the worst thing bid in several quarters, especially outside the US on the com school management, repealing talked about the promotional environment way one of his lung price. That's why align gave incredibly disappointing guidance for the next quarter much much weaker than expected Savo jump Richie forecast in Byzantine follow us would be up roughly thirty percent, but. Reveiz would be up only increasing by twenty two twenty two percent, thanks to lower average selling prices, and I'm going to quote him here due primarily to ongoing promotional discounts. That is just terrible. If you look at the situation clinically. That's exactly what you expect. When a bunch of companies like three m Danner real titans, come in and just start trying to take some share a one is no choice, but to cut prices in offer promotions. Now after getting slammed. During the rest of the fourth quarter of the stock took off in January rally nineteen percent as many investors figure that align had come out to foot fist. They thought. It was a bargain, which brings me to this week when y reported another dubious quarter and after mutually getting slam. This talk ended up going higher once again, the company gives you a modest top and bottom line beat. But also once again their average selling prices from bislogic declined by five point four percent. We're what declined that means? They don't have a lot of pricing pressure. Wall Street was expecting them to earn a buck nineteen per share. Next quarter alliance forecast at seventy eight to eighty four cents hideous the numbers came out last Tuesday night. The stock plummeted from two hundred twenty two down to the lower nineties in after trading wants badge from finish the cop school, though, losses moderated somewhat but stock was still down. However, it didn't take long for a line to re bam the at oh, boy all of its shape is came out, and they just gave it to usual Zayas Stockholm and closing up four point five percent on Wednesday. So what happened here, I think there are a number investors watching the quarter closely felt like this document excessively punish interesting. This'll decline. So they pants on into weeks since then align is continue client. But I think this is actually a mistake their average selling prices keep falling and the only guidance they gave him a cops call was the debut flat in the first quarter. However, when the annals tried to pin down a lines management the com school, they talked about a bunch of one off issues from last year and didn't even dress really the competition. I say call me unimpressed, align technology has made many of our viewers a lot of money over the years. But in a line with competitors is totally different story from an align with no competitors throw in the fact that dentists are now forming these dental Cooper's dental service organizations DSO's to bargain floor prices. And I don't think this is a great business to be in right now. It would be one thing if align stock were actually cheap here, but it's not exactly bargain. So for thirty five times next year's earnings estimates that's a high multiple, especially when you're concerned that the company may not be able to make the numbers, and that's something. I am absolutely. About. So here's the bottom line. I talked that we have pushed forever, align. Technologists? One of the best quotes stocks around it had a superior product and the doctor served to soar, but now line is a bunch of competitors. And that makes this a much less compelling story. So if you own this one, I say take advantage of this recent strength. And bring the Dohrn registered monies back. It is. Going one. And then the lightning round is over. Are you ready skiing? Daddy. Because it's over the Ikin Georgia. I. Grass of what's up? I'm Tom leave on the pint Carla like that I want to thank you for your educational, and then tha tinny show. Okay. I've met a lot of Martin funny about so we wind into Kim. Watching your show. Thing. So all you can thank you wishing today. And so forming I'd be pleaded going up and down for the positive or months looking at today's smooth considering current. Problems in bed. Right. She likes sale. Well, remember you to buy planes with dollar. So the dollar does not does not really impact in at one of only a couple of companies that have that. And I think Boeing is on its way. It's your move again. It's recharge and now it's off to the races. Let's go to Bob in Massachusetts. Bob. The gym gaulan from Boston and listener and celebrating the patriots win land. Question on kgo poured Energy Corporation. Is it a good way to play the oil to? Juice soured on the oil patch. I am simply not going to recommend that stock. I did like Exxon's quarter. I will say that. But this group is just really really hard to. Let's go to canyon and Texas canyon. Doodle? Do Jim fall. I liked that. What's going on out there early birthday? Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. I'm here in Austin, Texas, the frost, Bank tower and food. I bought the more frost actor it fell on earning. Think it's time for Ross to read the engine is one of the few regional banks, and I actually feel good about keep getting downgraded downgraded dangling budget east. No one's downgrading cold frost. What the businesses very strong. I mean, you go to Jeff and California Jap. Hi, jim. I have a two part question. Okay. Two point five nine has gone way up in the last few weeks about twenty nine percent higher. First question. Do you like that thought I am thinking of buying several shares should I get in now and follow the trip, and or should I wait for a big pullback? Did you going to be really honest? I mean, I know ringcentral I do not know this one I've got to do more work on it. I cannot open on it so much. I want you to question. I know what I don't know. Let's go to end in Iowa. Ed how you doing screamer? I'm good. How about you in? You had very little interested in a stock tight from food. They just got a new CEO other earning I think of coming up this Thursday. And I'm worried about the terror for just wondering what what do you think about? Now look Dame report this Thursday. I think it may be a suckers game too. This copy has become one of the most unpredictable companies in the whole country. So I am going to say that I have to wait myself to see what they're going to do. Let's go to Andrew, Missouri. Andrew. They give we love the show third collar. Okay back. Yeah. Call back for delete trading company all weekend. I wore my cameraman next steady Cam delude trading jacket, and my wife thinks it is the coolest caught piece of clothing that. I have and I am huge believer. And by the way, it's warm. You can't get wet in it. I think the loose stuff is the best there is. So I'm going to say. I'm not kidding. All right. Let's go to fill them Jinyan Philip. Hey, Jim, I hope you can hear. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing. Well. How are you doing Fine Gael was shirl seven years ago? If up we sure you she'll help me out a whole lot. There you go. Thank you. You're welcome in. Hey, my question is today. Landy club is a company that I've been helping ball loaning them. Len club. I'm not a fan many club. I don't wait crowd source lending. I think it's too dangerous. I'm going to have to say, no one that went and that lays other. How? The lightning round is sponsored by TD Ameritrade. Now, we've got this Zohar chewed sort Kadhamy between the scent mcduck stocks, and they're worry and the stocks the industrial companies that supply the semiconductor industry which had been crushed by their semiconductor clients makers of testing measurement equipment integrated circuit materials talked about slower orders at this quarter. Yet, the customers will they say they're in great shape or they're getting to being great shape. This is a real curious thing. What's going on? You're going to any season. We knew about the weeks isn't house. He autos too old stories that have been with us now for a while. But this quarter, we got a new pocket of weakness. The companies that make supplies from the semiconductor industry, all flagged their tech divisions. As sources of softness think Dow DuPont three in Illinois to works in Honey will. PVC business sources strength. However, the same kind of very customers the actual semiconductor capital equipment makers like Lamm research with a one called the bottom in tech and that caused fuel to spectacular move higher. When land ruled out his five billion dollars by back and talked about a stronger second half of the year. It's a to ignite the semi's than any other earnings report to date still you kind of wonder this dangerous contradiction helped him lamb coal bottom. When the suppliers to lamb are singing that the rest of the year. We'll be soft. How can lamb be bullish? When this business when three Honey will only tours and most importantly, Dow DuPont are so bearish maybe lamb is being too bold. The only other semiconductor play that predicted of bottom could be let's say is your hand was what's visual? And even then it felt like the conclusion was forced on them by analysts anxious to hear something positive. So what happens if the suppliers are, right? And we're much closer to the beginning of the semiconductor downturn. Then the end of it will that would mean that whole group has rallied we too far too fast, something I very much fear. Even as stocks have cleared the first Sealion resistance at one by Caroline Broden in last Tuesday's off the charts segment, but with a semi visit to lows from before lambs bomb coal now that I find hard to believe in part because most of these companies have already reported, we know there do we know they're doing. So it's unlikely we'll get into the horrific pre-announcements the one we got from in video though, I have to MIT invidious surprised strength since that. What if we flip the question around, though suppose, the suppliers are wrong? Maybe the last two turn in that case Honeywell Dell to punt Illinois tours three and they're being too negative. Now Dow DuPont is too many problems to pound the table in stock. Your Illinois tool. Works gave us some not so hot growth guidance puppies. That's auto business doing poorly, although the rest of the company's fine. I think the SOX intriguing, but I'm worried that might be another shoot a full at that downside guides. And then again it did. Valiantly four dollars today is better than it was a couple of quarters go that's enough for me to say, it's right. Stop to this environment, which brings me to Honeywell here. The we're very few glitches in some huge pauses for aerospace and climate rules. Not to mention terrific numbers from its warehouse automation unit which is now supposedly hostage to the suddenly hated Amazon the feeling I found most worse than what humbles Corey. Yep. You guessed it their semiconductor materials division, which haven't unexpected dancer. My thing this rally in the sending covert is, right. If it's accurately forecasting the future, then you want to buy Honeywell, but if the semi's a wrong lookout below these. I think these industrials could have more downside, and the talks will get slammed to at least with Honey will you have other more solid businesses to protect you from the downside. If it turns out that the worst isn't over stick with framer. All right. Let alphabet come down with a couple of days. Okay. Like say, there's always a warrant you somewhere pumps up front. Just for you right here on my buddy up to Garrett. I'll see you to Morrow.

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Fast Money 06/11/20

CNBC's Fast Money

47:28 min | 10 months ago

Fast Money 06/11/20

"Fractional shares trading is now available for all fidelity customers on the fidelity mobile APP by us. Stocks Ats Commission free based on how much you want to spend. Instead of by the share, fractional share quantities can be entered up to three decimal places as long as the value of the order is at least one cent dollar, as traits can be entered out to two decimal places sell orders are subject to an activity assessment fee from one cent to three cents per thousand dollars of principal fidelity brokerage services member NYSE SIPC. They live from the Nasdaq market site in New York City's Times Square. This is fast money. I'm Joe Kernan in for Melissa Leo. Let's get right to it a major off on Wall Street today. The Dow plunged nearly seven percent the worst day since March sixteenth, every single SNP sector interesting, the day in the red with energies in finance was the hardest hit. We have full team coverage standing by to tackle today. Sell up! Let's kick things off with someone who watches watches the minutia and Bob Passante. Bob Hard to find anything anything positive in the day, but seeing you is positive for mates. Thank you good to see you as always much overdue. Look at the cyclical rally and the reopening story in general I. Just want to show you a few things here. Because V, rally that a lot of people have been hoping for has been inverted. There's there's an inverted V that's actually happened in a lot of the cyclical names in the last few days punctuated by today. Today. Let me just start with some of the energy stocks marathon mroe marathon was six dollars at the start of the month that goes to nine dollars, and then back to six. This essentially an inverted V as you can see a lot of Hess. Devon they're all. Look the same way same thing with other big industrials. If you look at General Electric General Electric goes from. Six to nine I believe and goes back down again as you can see right here to essentially six dollars and change same situation of the Caterpillar looks essentially the same way other industrials same here at the airlines United Airlines we watched. With our mouth open, it goes from thirty to fifty dollars, and now essentially back into the thirty dollar range. All of this in a few weeks think about that same with the banks, and this is even more remarkable, considering the market half of city group, which was forty dollars middle of the month. The Star of the month goes to sixty dollars goes back essentially to forty eight. That's what I'm talking about these inverted vs that you're seeing Goldman. Goldman. Morgan Stanley same thing with that as well travel and leisure United Airlines. We mentioned that thirty dollars to fifty dollars, and he goes see what's going on their city group as well utilities. Curiously you think bond proxies would do well in this environment, but not today. Interestingly they had a modest rise about ten percent in the last few weeks, but even they weren't safe. So what's moving stocks today? I think it's safe to say the valuation. Valuation Story was the main one. The market has voted. It's frothy reopening story. It's not a V., but what exactly is it? We don't quite know right now here. The stimulus story is still there the Fed still supportive. That's still a good story and treatment and vaccine progress, but we heard a lot of stories today that certainly there, so joe? I two of the four, definitely under some attack today Joe back to you definitely Bob all right, thank. Thank you let's bring in tonight's trade or lineup guy odometer Tim, Seymour Karen Fineman and coming to us live from the New York stock. Exchange Steve Brazos Steve is following nyse safety guidelines in is required to wear a mask while on the trading floor. We're going to start it off. I, always like seeing. Everybody's House and where people live Karen coming to us from field of dreams looks I see a baseball diamond I believe in in radio. I can barely make him out. Actually. It's a very serious day. No time for Levity Guy. Tell us about today CELAC. Thanks Joe. Thanks I mean. It's a long day for your being here. Joe Today off three thousand, the S&P or some people say may twenty ninth so. We've been here before, and we were here very recently so. I was thinking this something like this would happen a few hundred. points ago so here we are, and in my world being early as being wrong, but for context you know you I think if you're bullish, you want to see a day like today now. Some of the things that are somewhat disconcerting is the fact that the vix has now a forty handle, which is remarkable given where we were just a few days ago and what really worries me? Me Is something that few people talk about Tim brings it up. From time to time is volatility. We're seeing in the bond market. I mean ten year. Yields are back to where we were seemingly terms of volatility back in March you go from sixty basis points almost to one percent back down to sixty five basis points and percentage point moves. That is extreme in anybody's camp, so that's. That's a little worrisome. What I think you need to do here? It's funny. You had a guest on the other day on your morning. Show I think Boeing was trading on or about two hundred thirty dollars have the time. Yeah, and one hundred seventy five dollar price target here we are right, I mean here. We are seemingly two days later, so I think you're looking for opportunities to. To buy the same specifically Boeing just put it in context, you take the march low, which was eighty nine dollars a recent high, and if you could buy the stock at one, hundred, sixty, one or thereabouts, which isn't that far from where we are now, that's sort of a fifty percent retracement so I think you have to be looking at things through that Lens. It was it was. Ron Epstein of Bank of America, I remember, and it was one hundred sixty guy, and I was needling him a little bit about you got a one sixty price starter well above two hundred before you came on today. Why didn't you up? Your price target is not looking too bad. At one seventy guy guy been around a long time. Although you don't, you would never know but short sharp scary corrections. Normally aren't the kind of thing that it is quite as I mean. This was awful today watching it is sort of sickening, but it gets us back to still above three thousand on the S. and P., and suddenly we've engendered a lot of fear again and wrung out some complacency that I mean here. We are above three thousand, but we're scared to death again. That could get out of hand with the second wave or something. No I think you've pointed the point I made earlier may we may twenty ninth? I don't think it's A. It's a scary thing. I don't think it's a bad thing. Because the way, the market was moving unabated over the last couple of weeks with scary and something. We've talked a few days ago Joe. What gave us pause was the fact that back in March? We saw indiscriminate selling. Going lower well couple days ago. We saw that in reverse, and we also mentioned that on a pretty big update. The vix was also higher, and that gave us some concern, so maybe it's all sort of coming out in the wash your point. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. It was not not fun to watch and gave you know all that that week. That was so amazing like seven percents gone. Anyway I'm going counterclockwise going down going down to Karen Karen what do you? What do you think? Is it a? Short sharp correction and an ongoing trend, or is it the beginning of of reckoning for the disconnect between you know all this scary stuff happening in the world and the market which was soaring. Well I. Say thanks for Pitch Pinchitting. You can come out to field of dreams here anytime. You want a wet today, but so two guys point I agree this sharp down. I'm always logged so I like this chart down lately. Avid finding it's harder to find things to buy lately. Being like last Tuesday and the reversal, since then is really kind of extraordinary, but we're only factor where the beginning of last week so. I kind of like days like this as as painful as they are, and as much money, as I lose a day like today I find it sort of. A nice wash up to start to look for things to buy again. This move in the guy pointed out. That was a fifty percent move today from twenty seven to forty. That's really that's an interesting indicator. Right? You talk about people really getting scared. I think they are I think it's worth noting that this morning Steve Mnuchin said. We're not feeling too close the economy again even if there is a second wave that was interesting to me and worth noting so I'm looking for things to buy. Not The airlines, even though they've come down a lot. They were up at a ridiculous level I'm looking to buy things that I already own some like a Fedex something like that I'm looking at by some banks. I don't love to go into. Friday wouldn't be surprised. Margaret Trades down again and then I'll probably look to buy over the weekend, but I think this was good. This was healthy and this was. Overdue. Going over to you Steve and you would think the discussion would be that. We can't really see that well, but it was all about the sweater. With, the people in my ear, and the very very preppy looks like you're back in Tampa, K., brew. That was your fraternity. Was it anyway? What do you think of the of the sell off today so? First let's let's address the sweater I. Only because this is about twenty percent of the people that are normally on the floor of the exchange. It's freezing on the floor is so I'm going to get a pass on the sweater at this boy helmets? Right now it's about fifty eight degrees on the floor. Come on! Turtle. These Him For this thing. So now when you look at their overall market, I think this is constructive from where we came from when I look at the chart. Twenty, two hundred is where we came from Joe. You know better than anybody up to have that rally of forty seven percent off the bottom. Yep, this is a win. You have the Fed the Fed buying. Corporate junk bonds this so I. Don't think we can get back to twenty one hundred again. Having said that we're back to the two hundred eight moving average, so if you want to be constructive, that's where you start from. Ten to one a look at the overall marketplace, the Powell yesterday a Owens Powell Powell yesterday said that interest rates are going to be stuck here. So, you understand why value how to back up again. You understand why the economy not starting up. That quickly is negative for the overall market. But I think this is just a backpedal. Maybe a little bit longer, but I would think that you just to Karen's point. Get Your shopping list ready. We're now going back down to twenty thousand one hundred SMP. This looks to me like a little bit of a backup in a buying opportunity in the macro sense, certainly get your attention, tim seven percent and the day. I mean you don't WanNA, string four or five of those together obviously. Now now you don't and this got my attention to, but think about where we are apple. Still up eight percent over the last five days, Boeing, still up eighteen percent over the last five days, and I think Steve Rightly pointed out the move that the market had before yesterday the the previous two weeks we'd had the market then ten percent nine days, so so we're reminded through jobless claims and continuing claims morning effectively twenty one million people continue to file for claims. Claims we know that there's been some resurgence in Kobe. And we know that the market and that gives me. The economy is not opening quite as quickly but I think you have to take this all in the context of where we came from in the same way, remember the violence of the move on the way down. Some of that was because of the unabashed kind of blow off top. We'd had going into this so I think. We need to scary day. But I don't think we things have really changed that much day over day. I think we've digested the Fed. And I think if anything. The Fed reminded the market sometimes that bad news can be bad news. We have a gentleman who actually. All you guys do this for a living, but he's gotta live by what he says because he's head of Equity Strategy for Wells Fargo Securities Chris Harvey. You Echo what you're hearing from From us here are or what do you? Do Echo a fair amount of what I'm here so I think it is a healthy correction. I think it was long overdue. There's a lot of talk about a second wave I. really don't think that's what it was I think it was very much bed related. Going to tell you that we're going to keep rates lower for longer and longer and longer to things are going to happen and what we're beginning to see both one that negative interest rate narrative commentary is going to come back, and that's not good for rich product. That's not good for sentiment. That's not good for the economy, and the second thing is going to do what you began to do. It's going to flattening yield. Yield curve and the same thing they're bad for risk product bad for the combat or sentiment, but but I really do think this is more of a ten percent pullback than anything else because the underlying fundamentals are slowly improving the credit markets are wide open. Credit is widely valuable, and we just went too far too fast I think things probably trade poppy up until fed, stress, test, or maybe the to to earnings. But eventually they'll start to to work themselves out because I think the commentary, though the numbers will be very difficult in two, you will be rather constructive where the C. Suite says. Hey may was better than April June was better than May and July not so bad and I think we can rally on that and I think that's what we need to look forward to that Chris interesting you ascribe more of it to the Fed into the worries about about the pandemic I asked Jim Grant this morning whether. Ever comes the day where the Fed is actually part of the problem for what's happening instead of the solution. We all think the feds done a great job. We love the liquidity, but guys like Jim Grant think we're never getting out of this that the the size of the balance sheet at this point and the central banks around the world and negative rates, and beggar, thy neighbor and everything else that he actually thinks that the Fed is part of the problem with what's happening in the market, not the solution. Do you think that? So the did a great job back in March, and they did a great job with the facilities, especially the credit facilities, but I will point out that to the best of my knowledge that the Fed hasn't purchased a single corporate bonds, but getting back to the point. The issue was yesterday you have with the Fed is big. Keep saying or thinking that lower rates are the solution, and that's not the solution anymore. And to your point. There's a lot of things are fed into right I. think what the Fed did for many years is provided too much liquidity. They kept the creative destructive process from happening too much capacity, so we never have pricing power and didn't have inflation, and they were part of the problem so i. take the good with the bad. They've done some really great things, but some of the things that they're doing I think they. They need to work on some of their communication and I think they need to really understand better. What they're communicating to the bond market to the yield curve and to investors, because lower rates are not always pollution and I don't think the solution. Right here right now because there is a vocal group of people that you see it on the Internet and elsewhere about you know about central banks, and the Fed and everything else, and I'm just wondering you know everybody's saying. Yeah, the Fed did it today, but they did it just because. Of their economic take on on what's happening not because of what the Exit Anyway Chris Thank you. Guy, what do you think what what? What Chris said and just on the notion that there could be i. don't know when I mean. Inflation doesn't seem bad, but there could be a day of reckoning some day for the Fed. Yeah. It's interesting I mean. I'm sort of come down on the other side of that. I'm on sort of Jim Grant side where I think the Fed is more part of the problem but I can understand if you're just looking through the prism of the market, immune been unbelievable for the market and I get the wealth effect that creates I mean I can understand that argument, but you know broader looking I think the Fed has gone down a rabbit hole to your point that they're never going to be able to extricate themselves from which is problematic, I don't know when that's problematic. I think again to Chris's point. They've put in a bit of a buffer where the credit markets are not going to have that Event like we saw in March I think that's positive. And I do think you have to start looking for levels where you want to get back into some of these names, they've moved so quickly. The banks for example I think Dan. Nathan has done a really good job with these. I mean J. P. Morgan, for example got to one fifteen. We talked about one fifteen as a level just in terms of the metric of at sixty two dollar tangible book, a one point eight mult bond that gets you one fifteen, and it did exactly that now I think again and I think Karen would agree with this. You're looking for levels to get back in to these names. We'll talk more about that I think, we're Karen I, would have maybe gone to you or Tim received just I'm just reading, and it said Guy Asks Guy what he thinks. I don't know who made guy. Who May die king, although that's that's why that's a beautiful back. He's got. He is king. He is King King Guy All right. We're just we're just getting started here Fast money up next collapsing crude oil tanking in self today. We're drilling. Drilling down on the big move lower and then later the ultimate safety play. We're going to tell you where option traders are taking cover as stocks. That could mean we're going to. That's money is back in two and two. Fractional shares trading is now available for all fidelity customers on the FIDELITY MOBILE APP by US stocks ATF's commission free based on how much you want to spend. Instead of by the share, fractional share quantities can be entered up to three decimal places as long as the value of the order is at least one cent, dollar-based trades can be entered at to two decimal places sell orders are subject to an activity assessment from one cent to three cents per thousand dollars of principal fidelity brokerage services member NYSE, SIPC. Welcome back fast money, crude oil, getting crushed in today's sell selloff WTI falling nearly nine percent energy, a worst performing sector today names like Halliburton slumber, j., Chevron and Exxon all falling deep into the red. That's no small feat to be the worst sector today Tim with some of those extended airlines and travel related stocks. Are you trading these names or what happened? Well, I, you know. I'm trading at least one or two of them from the long side and trading them in the context of someone something slumber J. which is down twenty two percent three days. Boy I wish. I had taken some profits three days ago. but what would they gave you? Coming out of their first quarter earnings was not only a dividend. Cut a look into their liquidity profile. Business reliant strategy that indicate some divestments, but this is arguably I- I I, still think it's one of the most important companies in our country. I think oil technology. I think the oil sector I think energy independence, and I think these guys have been very fruit, and and how they've looked the balance sheet, so the the energy sector has the highest Beta. Beta effectively address sector in the SNP right now, because of where it's come from, so you can make an argument that the fundamentals are still very poor, but as we like to say you make the most money when things go from terrible to just bad some of the headwinds for energy and for oil in particular over the last few days. We're. We're getting some sense that actually drilling activity in the Permian Basin, and the other major basis is actually increased significantly. We've also got some sense. There's more of a backstop on the debt of a lot of these these less stable companies and that's that's great for the companies. It's great for those investors, but it's not necessarily good for the sector to be overproducing and keeping four companies alive, so I think this is kind of the crosshairs. Now slimbridge to me is a longer term holding, and certainly one that I think when we see well, prices normalized, which is not at at thirty dollars on Brent. More like forty five it's a name. I'm going to be very happy owning. Do you have position in any any energy related issues. No not really, but the thing is interesting to me. You know I it could have been any sector. That was sort of you. Know game on you, so you know airlines banks. We'll get to some others. I think they all just sort of went down by not wildly different amount, so it was sort of just a cross, the board risk off other things that were down equally as much as if they were in oil name. Anybody in the market probably had that experience today. Anyway all right we will. We're going to another break, and then we'll be back coming up much more on today's big selloff. How do you manage your winning trades? Born so well right, and then you get caught up in today's slide. We're headed to trade school next as we head as we head out, look at today's biggest Dow losers. Low list, a full market coverage continues on fast money returns. Was In fast motion. Welcome back to fast money I'm Joe Kernan in from Melissa Leo if you're just joining us or a major sell off on Wall Street Dow dropping nearly seven percent, and when you're up in the high twenties that. Can be a big number. Almost almost one thousand nine hundred points at its worst day since March sixteenth today's big slide, the first real test for a flood of new investors who've recently piled into the market in the some. I guess questionable speculative names. At least let's get to Leslie Picker with. Hey Joe that's right. Welcome to the stock market, knots of increased interest from retail investors have been partially responsible for some of those wild swings and bankrupt or near bankrupt companies over the last week that we've seen, and it's left the so called smart money kind of dumbfounded. The Laws of finance say that equity holders rarely recover money in bankruptcy, because bondholders in order of seniority get paid out first so when shares of companies in chapter eleven proceedings like hurts and whiting petroleum began soaring over the last week. It kind of defied all logic, and that was at the expense of some sophisticated hedge funds that were on the other side. Side of that trade the Hedge Fund strategy is called capital Structure Arbitrage colloquially me. Industry Cap Structure Are oftentimes when it comes to a distress company. This involves shorting the equity while going long. The bonds capture MIS pricings up and down the capital structure, but over the last week when day traders started bidding up shares of bankrupt companies in actually caused a short squeeze, sending those stocks, even higher as hedge funds were were forced to cover. So when you look at the number of share shortage in names like hurts JC, Penney and whiting petroleum, those are way down over the last month. That's according to data by s three partners Joe. All right, well, thank you Karen. What's your take on this? This is this isn't the first time in speculative somewhat speculative times that you see stocks like this. Behave in ways that it may not make a lot of sense when it's all said and done. Yeah it makes no sense and I mean if you look at the bond. As Leslie pointed out, you look at the capital structure of the bonds trading in the thirties, the high thirties for some of the mid level bond so the equity. Now it's ridiculous. This is I think it's it's worse than the Internet bubble in in that I think the Internet bubble you could buy the story of a dream I guess here. It seemed to me so much. The volume has no idea how bankruptcy works and is sort of just choosing to ignore it. Hoping that you know the greater fool is out there, so I wouldn't touch any of this stuff. Let's let's talk more about the day trading boom and one stock newbie investors have been betting on Newbie investors been betting on his carnival cruise lines, one of the most actively traded stocks on the Robin Hood eappen. It fell fifteen percent today. So you're you're in this name. And you're wondering how to get out. You are in luck. It's time for trade, school classes and sessions. Steve Grasso take it away. So usually when you trade a stock like this show, you get it if you're lucky enough to pick it at the bottom, so you came in today, but it's up over two hundred percent off the low. You're lucky enough to buy it off that low. You have to have an idea where the resistance is so that resistance could be a moving average. It could be a bounce level could be retracement. For me, I look at the FIBS so when you look at a resistance level, look at where it starts to roll over on a chart. You see where it hits that wall. Almost down to the time when you look at your bounce levels or your retracement at that point. As a traitor. You need to sell either all of it. Some of it a partial. My rule of thumb is sell twenty-five percent. This way if it trades back down and then trades right back up the resistance. It's GonNa pop to that resistance, and you still have upside potential. If it does not return, you look between that level of resistance and a momentum indicator. I use the twenty day moving average. It's referred to as the momentum indicator. You divide up. In segments of twenty five percent from that initial resistance down to the momentum indicator every time it breaks down equal parts for parts. You sell another twenty five percent. Once you get down to that momentum indicator, which is the twenty day moving average, which it was basically not even there yet today you should be out of the stock. If it breaks that level, you should only be holding twenty five percent. Of the position. If you have that position left, and it bounces like these technicals and these volatile markets. Do you still have some upside potential and the name? If it breaks through your only left, holding the bag on twenty five percent of the position, that's the way to be disciplined. That's the way to trade these highly volatile names in a retail market. Make sense, thank you. Steve Makes Sense to me anyway guy. I have to ask you for your take on St St strategy whether you'd ever wear that sweater. A couple of things I can't see a sweater because I'm speaking into a blank screen number one and you don't really have the only two things you have to do in life for pay taxes and die, so you don't have to come to me. You're choosing to which is fine. I. Hear what Steve and Steve would also add is all this has to be in place before you do anything, so you have to have a plan before you even enter in in these traits for example I mean if you were lucky enough to by. Bucks look went to twenty dollars in a heartbeat. You sell your position your in the rest of it for free, so you have to be thinking that way you have to have if you if you fail to plan as Warren Buffett says you plan to fail, so this thing should be on autopilot once you buy it and I think certain extent. That's what Steve was so craftily alluding to. About the whole idea of. I guess you can't fault people for for taking a flyer. It doesn't really sound like a way to build wealth over time. Right, a Stephen or anybody comment on that these names well. Here's the here's the problem Joe went. When you look you're looking at these names of profit is the profit is a profit so when you're talking about building wealth the when you're investing, and you're looking for daily incremental hourly increments if you can clip ten percent in these markets which see this on a daily basis, stocks are moving five in ten percents weightings. They are building real real wealth. They're not investing their trading and that's the huge difference. It certainly makes fast money much more important part of their lives, too, so they. They should be watching that, so it's. It's good for fast. Okay, thank you we're going to. Out Thirty five, thirty one coming up investors rolling the dice. Got A lot of this scripted rolling the dice on casino stocks got burned a day why there could be more pain ahead for the sector, but now i. we have some after hours action on this busy Thursday Lululemon. Those fans and adobe. You're both on the move after reporting results will break down the accident when fast money recurred. Welcome back fast money. We have an earnings alert shares of Lululemon, an adobe are both on the move after reporting results, full team coverage standing by now to break down both names. Josh Lipton is digging in on Adobe, but let's start with Gordon Greg and more on Lulus quarter Courtney. Joseph Louisville, actually missing consensus for earnings and revenue for the first time in more than three years, shares diving after hours about seven and a half percent, but after they've gone on a pretty big run. They've run up about fifty one percent in just the last three months. No stores of close. Of course we're closed for much of the quarter. Online sales grew sixty eight percent means they made up fifty four percent of total revenue. That's double what they made up the. The same quarter last year now Lou did not report any comparable sales or give guidance margins did fall more than two and a half percentage points to hit the lowest level in three years about sixty percent of loose doors are now open globally early trends in North America are quote exceeding expectations according to executives on the call Lulu does it have sufficient liquidity at one point? Two billion dollars now like many retailers Lululemon of sold these various and very distinct phases. Phases with in the quarter as cove nineteen spread throughout the world so on the conference call CEO Kevin McDonald talked about phase one. He called that pre-crisis part of the quarter were comps increased nearly twenty percent. Things were looking pretty normal then in face to as the virus spread in the US and Europe. Lululemon, to close the majority of the stores in those regions ECOMMERCE, though then started to accelerate at the same time China was reopening and total China comps were actually. Actually positive in March, in April ECOMMERCE comes up one hundred twenty five percent that momentum they say, continuing into the current quarter here online now comps were up in the low teens and China in April with momentum continuing into this quarter, so they're looking at the trends in China where things are normalizing hoping. Perhaps we'll see some of that in North America and Europe Becker View. You okay, Courtney, thank you, Karen, you are long Lululemon. What's your take on the quarter? I! Well. It was disappointing, clearly overstayed my welcome with it did not just down the after hours also had a pretty bad day down fifteen bucks in the regular training session so I thought the margins actually hung in there really well, I thought the revenue line would beat in fact, it missed. I think they're I mean it's an extraordinary business. I think. This evaluation of I've a little bit stock I have three hundred of puts. So you know where it's trading right now? The position will be taken away from me or I'll put it up to. Be Optional older, but I. I liked the name I was clearly wrong in how they would do this quarter. There was some impressive things, but when you're stock runs up as much as it has. I should have listened to Steve's last piece. Yesterday maybe it would have taken some money off the table, but. I I wouldn't I let it settle out before I would buy. Adult. Obviously we can't on stocks, but so many of those pants and a honestly guys. I don't know whether you guys have the ABC pants, but I have not worn another. You've worn. More fast money. Another pants in. It's got to be well over a year or maybe even longer than that. You're a buyer. They feel like they feel like jeans and they don't look like gene, so you can get by with A. Guy Or. Anyone else long or or comments on this team? Look era fashion show so literally when saw you wearing them I had to go out and get get a few pairs myself about. What about the stock seriously? I what a move! It's made in it I. Think I'm not kidding. Part of it is because of these these crazy pants that so many men sorkin well the pair now. Oh, yeah, yeah, the the the addressable market growth from from the male population is a big part of the upgrades, and we're almost have been chiming in, but also this this. Story, of which is now fifty four percent sales, and was up almost seventy percent year over year. I mean that that's part of the excitement, but as Karen pointed out a lot of this great stuff is in people I can't have been a part of rallying this doc. It's been extraordinary, so taking profits even now is has been very beneficial to a lot of people that have been long all right. We'll move on to adobe the stocks moving higher in the after hours Josh. Lipton has details on this report hey josh. So you know Joe Heading into this report stock hidden in today's trade, but it was still surging rallying fifty percent from its march low as if you look at the report, just digging into the segments digital media that was up eighteen percent to two point three billion dollars, the other big segment, their digital experience, eight hundred twenty six lane guy in security guidance was light relative to expectations I did check. Kirkman turnover at ever core ISI covers the name. Kurt liked what he saw this report, so listen digital media, a our annualize recurring revenue, four, hundred, forty, three million. That was above expectations that signal. Kirk says at the core business is healthy here. Operating margin noted expanding so this is a company. He's arguing that delivering higher levels of profitability, even during a downturn juicery guides in his in his words close enough to the streets estimates. Guidance we read. He's arguing to us as conservative on the call company's CEO Shuttering, Orion, saying the company's to did coincide with what we hope. He says was the peak of the pandemic, nevertheless adobe drove strong performance across creative cloud, document, cloud, and experience in times of uncertainty. He was arguing the call. People are turning to adobe products to learn and work in the digital experience. Yes, the economic challenges he said enterprise customers are facing weakness and small and medium-sized businesses did impact bookings, and the as did. He noted the decline AD spending, but he called those short term challenges for more from the CEO certainly turned into. Tonight to mad money where he jones our own Jim Cramer guys back to you all right justice. Aggressor. You got this one. Yeah so the way I would trade. This one is first of all. Adobe is up seventeen percent year to date so to mute your exposure to any one software name. I shares has an ETF. Is the ticker symbol, the top two positions are Microsoft and adobe, and then, and then you get your salesforce in your service now below that this fund this ETF is up nineteen percent year to date. So this is definitely benefited from the stay at home shelter in place. Software needs that everyone in this world has needed. Think that for me. I bought this for my kids. I would buy this for myself. I've us a better way to play it. You don't have to be tied to one stock like adobe although I love Adobe. I think you have to mute your risk and own them all I own Microsoft as well, but I think that you need a fund like this that helps you blanket that exposure because this is where the growth is. The growth is not an energy stocks. Growth is not in value going forward. It's going to be right here at the center of Tech. Very good all right thanks Dave. Coming up by looking for bright spot option traders are betting on a double digit rally in this next name. Stick around for the details on that trade plus the casino stocks. Hit hard in today's selloff. Should you take a gamble on any of these names. That debate is ahead as we as we head out. At the biggest losers in the Nasdaq one hundred day fast money is back. A couple of minutes. Welcome back to fast money stocks getting slammed across the board today, the S&P five hundred, falling nearly six percent for its worst day, three months today selloff, sending investors into gold, the yellow metal, finishing in the green today Tim, my Menton Jim Grant earlier I. Know You make comments on gold as well when I asked him the harbinger, the Canary in the coalmine for when the Fed is overdone it. He said you'll see two things, gold and silver. Those were his that was his answer to things, gold and silver. You think it's time to be buying gold do. I do I think precious metals as an asset class are going to continue to run, but I think they had taken a breath, and that's actually very good for investors here, because obviously have been very hot trade. Really since the Fed came into play, Goldsman a very hot trade for now a good year I do think the dynamics of the Fed pretty. Pretty much admitting yesterday that they they are nowhere near their inflation target, and they can't get to. It so if anything I you know people talk about all these scenarios where you can buy gold and white gold would be a good hedge and this and that Karen talks about this, you could flip a coin, but deflation to me is more important than. Than inflation, and in fact, I think that's where we're going to see issues, or at least what we have right now. I will say about gold when we've seen massive liquidation in markets in other words days like today. Maybe a couple of them strung together. Not suggesting we're going to necessarily get that, but we have seen gold. Be a place where. Where margin calls and profit taking have stalled the gold rally in the first couple days this volatility, but then you really WanNa grab it and I. Think you WanNa. You WanNa. Move so again I. I expect to get to all time highs on the back of what the Fed told you for the next two years. They're going to be effectively at zero. Well. So through two thousand. Two thousand twenty two. The precious metal itself will will finally eclipse that those those level. I'm sorry. Look I. It's not going to happen tomorrow and I think that's major major resistance, but I think you've got a case here. Where you know, we've set the stage for gold to nick. Make the next move and it's rally. Okay all right sticking with gold. The miners didn't track with gold move higher today the. ATF. That tracks the space tumbling five percent, but option traders are starting to take a shine to one name in the group. Let's get the Mike Co with the action. I don't want to trigger anyone by referencing Seinfeld Takeaway Kibo. You Joe Yeah so their stock that I was taking a look at barrick gold ticker symbol up go. L. D. and we did see calls. Outpace puts more than two to one on above average volume where a lot of that activity was concentrated in the June twenty-sixth weekly twenty-six strike put so those are calls. Excuse me, those are the calls that are going to expire two weeks from tomorrow, and the buyers were paying just dollar for those calls, so they're making a bet that barrick is going to accede that twenty six dollars strike price by at least the dollar that they paid that would. Would take over twenty seven in the next two weeks in the stock closed just below twenty five now people who are watching the options markets may have observed that there was a big block of the twenty-five strike puts also traded, but that wasn't the bearish bet. The bears was actually made in early May and they were taking that off today, so when we were taking a look at the what we're seeing. Some people were taking advantage of today's weakness to get bullish and others were taking advantage of today's weakness to get less barish so in both cases they were making basically more bullish bets. All right good. Almost Friday. Mike Cocoa See t-bone better than they told me your name was cocoa. I like like Bomba for more options accent there. It's going to be tomorrow. It's almost Friday almost this few hours five thirty tomorrow by thirty. Eastern options action sponsored by thinker swim by TD ameritrade coming up the casino collapse. Gambling stocks crap out. Wanted to say that they offer to find out what's next for these names, and as we head out a look at all the only stock, the S&P five hundred able to eke out a gain today. Programme Cincinnati. Bass money back in, Scotland Welcome back, says money casino stocks getting rocked in today's market selloff. Let's CONTESSA brewer for the breakdown high contessa. Either Joe Yeah Wind gave investors some intra quarter color, and it was pretty dark. Though neighbouring Guangdong Province anticipates allowing students and teachers to begin traveling to Macau tourists have not been allowed back so here we are three months after casinos reopened over there corona virus closures and wins losing about two million dollars per day in Macau alone. It just reopened Las Vegas one week ago and Massachusetts is still closed now. Las Vegas Sands to would be experiencing a failure to launch in Macau because of a lack of visitation and its most profitable single property Marina Bay, Sands Singapore is not allowed to reopen. Reopen yet LAS VEGAS SANDS MAKES UP only about ten percent of its revenues. In the US rising Kobe, cases, following states reopening worries about recession and unemployment, maybe tampering down some of that enthusiasm that we saw driving shares higher over the last month. Triple digit gains in some cases the laggards of this day are MGM Resorts Down Thirteen Percent Penn Eldorado CEO told me yesterday. He's feeling a lot of phone calls regarding the merger with Caesar's following the implosion of that Simon Taubman deal. He told me quote. We are still one hundred percent moving forward and expect late June early July Close Melissa. Out Take it. I know who you are. What you call me, just call me. Contessa thank you. I'm going to get Tim's Tim Seymour. Take on casino. I'm going to preface it with one thing. If you got like a betting online sting, it's it's big. You gotTa have that because I have now bet on golf I have done it. It's all I got and I. Bet on Golf for today's Tournament. So that's what it's come to. I'm not going to tell you who or how I did it, but I have some money and draft kings on golf. So, what's your take? Okay why when I set up my online gaming business I'm going to you for a for a big account and I, think if you look at the casinos, Contessa did a great job of laying out some of the issues, both especially those that have a lot of exposure to Asia but McConnell specifically Singapore lvs, said they're actually saying goodbye to Japan. I think the the the story win. Was this was a stock that like it's? It has the volatility in the momentum of some of the other Cruise Lines Airlines Boeing transports. It was up twenty six percent three days going into the preceding three days, which was down eighteen percent. The uptrend is still alive I'm not saying there isn't a little bit more caution about how quickly we're going to rebound in. Remember we. We played a video here about a week and a half ago, showing how? How as casinos reopened, there was really very little concern around social distancing and some level. While that's concerning from a social perspective, it gave a little bit more of a boost to the casinos. Then maybe should have been I think we still need to wait and see what the impact is from social distancing on the domestic market, but the international markets are coming back slowly. They've had a huge run. I think eighty dollars pretty decent support for win here at least to watch it for now. Great. Karen you. Play, plan, this this arena. I don't I. Mean I understand I've heard that that actually golf bedding today was I mean voluble bats was enormous I guess it's a good outlet. Guys made the point that that's what's going on. In some of these bankrupt stocks that there's no sports to bet on, and so this is where the gamblers are going. Neither are for me. Neither Golf nor bankruptcy own boring. Oh all right. The Golf Channel Event so the sister network not for nothing anyway up next your final trade. Well. No way on one show. Welcome back the fast money. Here's a look ahead of what's coming up tomorrow on squawk box. We'll be joined by David Rubenstein Sandy. Weill Mick Mulvaney and Thomas Petrified. I will see you there. At Six am eastern. It's time for the final trade. Let's go around the horn, Karen with you. Yes well. Thanks for being here Joe tomorrow. I'll be looking to buy. Some Fedex gets to one twenty five, which, if the Barker were opened about another twenty minutes, today would have gotten there, but one twenty five. Tim. Joe Sweet ABC Pats? starbucks down thirteen percent over two days is a massive Mu Company that I, think ultimately is getting some also some of these painful signals from reopening slowly. It will be there even if commuter activity is slower in the next few months. It's all about comfort and Steve. So yesterday, Joe There was a headline on spotify. That said June nineteen to thirty calls trade five times the normal average I bought some yesterday added to some today. Maybe going into next Friday I get a chance to see spot run. Joe Yeah all right guy. You got three seconds. You used to that goal. Barrick gold cold all right very good. Thanks for watching. Fractional. Shares trading is now available for all fidelity customers on the FIDELITY MOBILE APP by US stocks and ATS Commission. Free based on how much you WANNA spend instead of by the share, fractional share quantities can be entered up to three decimal places as long as the value of the order is at least one cent, dollar-based trades can be entered at to two decimal places sell orders are subject to an activity assessment fee from one cent to three cents per thousand dollars, principal fidelity brokerage services member NYSE PC.

joe Karen Karen Fed Steve Brazos Steve Tim Seymour Boeing US principal adobe Fedex Joe Kernan Chris Harvey barrick gold ATF Melissa Leo Josh Lipton Jim Grant
The Story of Shirl Penney and Dynasty Financial Partners

Powering Independence Podcast

56:13 min | 1 year ago

The Story of Shirl Penney and Dynasty Financial Partners

"Power Independence podcast is a conversation about the era space hosted by Austin Philbin with friends and guests that include individuals spanning the entire spectrum of wealth management high energy insightful Chretien. This show aims to demystify many of the myths of financial services and provide insights fresh ideas in a true look into what it takes to be successful. Wealth Management Entrepreneur. Austin will ask the questions that need to be answered by any firm looking to drive scale efficiency and enterprise value. Hello and welcome to the powering independence. Podcast I'm your host Austin Philbin. In today I'm joined by a very special guest. President founder and CEO of dynasty financial partners. Shirl penny. Shirl the Austin how are you good? How `Bout yourself being tested? I think I'd like to start with a a a pretty basic question since the theme of today's episode is around the story of Dynasty Maybe we can start back with The beginning of our relationship because we worked together therefore A fairly decent amount of years Do you remember the first time that we work together? Why would go back even further than when the first time we worked together? We obviously As many people in the company but maybe not all the listeners. Now we went to college together. Correct we went to Bates College and in Nineteen. I was thinking about this one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. I believe we were co captains of the Bates baseball team. Yep you're a year behind me But hit lead off and I hit Cleanup you were a much better instill are much better athlete. You played Centerfield in left field. Right field. All around the outfield in They used to hide me at first base and sometimes hide me as as D. H. But we had a lot of fun and built a great relationship obviously in in college. That's where it all started and then essentially we've worked together Most of our career we worked together at Smith born. You were really the first Chief of staff kind of started it all. I've had about six cents then in most all of them work at At the company. But it's just been incredible Personal and professional journey together. So it's a lot of fun That you'd have me sit down and have this conversation. Yeah I'm glad to have you. I think that part of the reason may be that our relationship has been able to endure all these years because the Bates baseball team was not very good so we had to overcome a lot of adversity as teams. Good training. Good Training for entrepreneurship. Actually interestingly enough if I remember correctly twenty three years ago we had our first Job Together in the Sports Information Department at Bates College and we did these statistical analysis for the Bates College teams whether it's calculating someone's free-throw percentage which. I'm sure that I gave some some gimmes All the way to looking at different statistics on the The football team. So that's how we started. Yeah and that's kind of entrepreneurship one. Oh One right because we I remember we. We looked at each other one evening and said look. We're going to go to every single basketball game. We're going to go to every single football game So why not go and have the best seats in the front row? All we have to do is keep some of the stats and write a press. Release after the game And we get paid to go to the game so it was Was was incredible and we had a lot of fun doing that together. Yeah it was definitely a good foundation. For what journey or the journey that we're on currently around dynasty financial partners so very basic easy easy question for you because I know that a lot of people ask you this but what was it like for you personally to to start dynasty. Well it's an easy question and it wasn't easy to do so. I had a great run at Smith. Barney with various executive jobs there in left in April of two thousand eight Fortunate that I sold most of my Citigroup stock in the low thirties on the way to about eighty cents Over the course of the next six to six to eight months And had really been thinking about you know how I sit on the other side of the table and become an entrepreneur and I had pitched to senior leadership at the time to build an Aria Division. Because we had watched the asset flows very closely that they were continuing to go more to the independence side and it was a combination of advisors going independent as well as clients going independent And looking for an independent adviser probably an idea. Fifteen years ago that was too early The firm didn't want to get behind it. So that's Okay. It presented an opportunity For me and some of the other co founders to go And and move on on on that opportunity said the challenge was of course. I was then trying to raise capital headed into the financial crisis. So my wife And you've heard me say this number times but my wife. Marianne kept track of how long we went without a paycheck. You know two years seven months and four days literally she. She tracked it That close Before we launch The business officially December fourth two thousand ten and it was a journey. If many of you have probably watched shark tank and I'm sure many of the people listening to the podcast entrepreneurs themselves When you have to raise capital for a new concept and we were building the first ever integrated platform service model for high. Nra's right in people didn't really understand what it was People DIDN'T WANNA make illiquid investments coming out of the financial crisis It was a challenge and I'm so appreciative. Of So many friends. You know like yourself and and others came on early one of the best pieces of advice that Marianne my my wife gave me was. You need to call You know your your close friends and you need to get the band back together again. You know the group that has worked with you for so long Knows you know. The the unique approach that you take and The effort and how demanding you are and everything else. The good and the bad that goes with it And a handful and some of them were the old bates Friends that that I worked with over the years but we We jumped in and when we launched the business I think. A lot of entrepreneurs can relate to this too There's this feeling of celebration but short lived because that's when the real work even Starts at that point so raising the capital was a heavy lift building the initial team building the initial brand business model etc And then we say look. We're open for business. And the first six months I think we signed two or three deals It was a really slow build Then after probably about two years in Really started to take off and I feel like we're as you well know we're hitting our stride now and It's it's a lot of fun to be where we are now but It's been a ton of work in those couple years prior in the nine years sense to get to this point and I don't know I I would imagine. This is something that happens on a regular basis to anti any entrepreneur but particularly entrepreneurs who it's their first time starting a business is that you've got all these different Headwinds and and voices that come in to your head into your consciousness unconsciousness around detractors. People that can't see the vision people that don't understand what it is that you're doing and I believe truly that as a CEO. You've done a phenomenal job of not ever allowing any of those narratives to come in to your head space. Maybe you have and you just haven't expressed it to anyone. But but how do you do that like as a CEO of a company it could be any one of our clients could be a tech company? Any company where you're starting with a vision or a collective vision of small group of people and people don't get it or even if they do get it they think that you're gonNA fail and they say things addy you see how do you. How do you adjust to that? It's a really terrific question and I at a high level I've learned over the course of my life that winner surround himself with other winners And you want surround yourself with people who have positive intent and and really believe in and support what it is that you want to do but I'm also a big believer in mentorship. Right and mentorship can come from from anywhere And I have a lot of entrepreneurs that I look up. Look up to many of whom that are not even necessarily in our industry I've had the great fortune being able to spend time with them and ask them a lot of questions about their journey. And some of the challenges that you go through are not that unique kind of it's the the rite of passage that that a lot of entrepreneurs go through. It's really hard and frankly that's the barrier to entry I remember seeing this video An interview with Steve Jobs Awhile ago where he talked about. You know any Sane and rational person wouldn't do what most entrepreneurs do because if you analyze the odds right. The odds are are far against The level of success. Certainly that we've had it at dynasty when we were starting out but I was all in And surrounding myself by people who wanted to be all in Had the hard conversations at home which I think is really important for entrepreneurs to over communicate not just to their partners At the office but to those at home to know that it could take awhile and it could be really hard and and It's going to require some sacrifice but if you do that and you stay committed to it you believe in yourself Great things can happen and while it's harder than you ever imagine Oftentimes early on it ends up being more rewarding than you ever could have imagined too because all those people who believed in me and believed in what we were doing in the early days when I mean I just love seeing the early partners yourself included Austin when he we start to look at the cap table and we see the the level of wealth that starting to be created by the way where. We're not done yet. I mean there's still a lot of opportunity for growth and you see the difference that you're making clients lives and In in their employees. And what they're doing for their end client It's pretty. It's pretty incredible so I think when you have. It's an entrepreneur. A real clear sense of what? Your purpose is There's always more work to do In it allows you more easily to push through those tough times. Yeah I think a huge topic for or even a conceptual idea for entrepreneurs in something that you've been pretty good about talking about throughout our time together is is beginning with an end in mind starting a business but also Being able to understand that you need to implement structures and processes in order to allow that business to scaling grow. And that's incredibly difficult when you have this instantaneous pressure of trying to create positive revenues To get clients whatever the most basic elements of the business. Are you also have to be able to step back as the CEO of a company and say we may need to do some things today? That could slow down the immediate progress of our company but the long term viability is dependent on us. Getting these things right so you know how have you done that as a CEO? How of you step back and say we need to begin. Continued to build with an end in mind or just a a goal in mind rather than than getting myopically focused on the day to day elements. Yeah it's a real challenge and it's something that I think most entrepreneurs realize That you get better at over time When when you're young I'm forty two years old so hopefully some ways. I'm I'm still young but when I was younger I was always kind of a a young executive or young person in a hurry and didn't fully appreciate the value of experience And always thought I know I can. I can do that. I'm ready for now. And there's just some things in life that you have to kind of have the battle scars and you have to go through it And and learned from mistakes Frankly even even even more than Than the than the successes that that you have and as I said earlier you know if you surround yourself by people who have complementary skill sets and not everyone that looks and thinks exactly like like you are you put yourself in a in a higher probability of of success but the communication piece is so important to your question right so. I I talk about Sometimes from a business strategy perspective. You have to play more chess than checkers. Well the challenge with that is even before we launched a business. I could kind of see in my mind where I wanted to be where the business should be in five years Which is incredibly frustrating. That I just wanted to launch the business Friday. I knew where we're going to go. I just finished finished raising the capital. Get the first teams to to sign. You know we're going to be all in and support you. You're going to be safe when you move over a platform but things don't move as fast as you want. And now nine years later after after we launched and over FORTY BILLION OF ASSETS. And you know we have a a good business that we're working every day to continue to make a great It's the same thing I see pretty clearly where I want the business to be in five years but you have to be really careful as a leader and is a founder an entrepreneur in a business because if I walk into every staff meeting and just talk about those things. I'll lose a lot of the team right because They're working on the day to day executing in the short term And may not interpret or see as clearly as I might those long term things so it's a balance with any leader of an organization not to get too far out in front of the team In to make sure you pay the communication Alongside of the execution So that you can. You can process and in managed growth At the right pace. But I think that's that point to to hone in on a couple of things there's it this tremendous friction point today around the validity and the the value of experience versus the instantaneous accessibility to knowledge through technology. Right so you know when when we started in this industry in order to find certain pieces of information it could be challenging now today with smartphones. There's just so much more access to lots of different types of of information. Lots of types of ways of doing things and so. How do you weigh that? With with different types of employees right ones that may need some mentorship and guidance around experience versus those that believe that instantaneous. Better and that. There's not a lot of value in experience. How how do you see that? Maybe you're not dealing with yourself. But just as a general principle from your view well when it comes to managing people as you know. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach right. There's some people that you can communicate with a certain way and there's other people that if you use that same approach you lose them So you know you. Experience does matter when it comes to communicating and managing people. But I actually think about it less as managing and more leading and inspiring When I think about the type of leader that that I aspire to be It's that someone you know. Wants to to follow or partner a work with me because they're inspired by the vision and what we're doing And they're all in and they're why is the same as is aligned with With Mine and and corporate values etc But you know sometimes People need some help right and you have to spend time. Have those those Those honest conversations and sometimes you have to have tough conversations and I would say for me and for most because most people were good people but having tough conversations with people is not something that most entrepreneurs enjoy But the best run businesses. The most successful entrepreneurs That that I've had a chance to spend time with are the ones that have the discipline to be relentlessly. Committed to the upgrading of Tau in overtime. So they invest in their talent and give them every opportunity to succeed. But sometimes you realize that the people that get you here may not be the people that get you there And you have to make some of those some of those changes at at Dynasty You know we evaluate Are Talent based upon competency in the role but with equal weighting We evaluate cultural fit right And you know the the easy ones are if they're not doing a good job and they don't fit the culture right. You know what the outcome is going to be there But the really challenging wines. Even more so if someone's not doing as good a job But they fit the culture. Those the people you want to try to coach up you WANNA keep And and get their performance up Because there are strong cultural player. But the ones that are really challenging are the ones that are star talent and contributors but don't fit the culture right And those are the ones that you know. We tell a lot of our clients who entrepreneurs running or as Obviously that Being able to have the hard conversations and deal with those issues on I think is one of the differentiator is between The businesses that are that are doing exceedingly well and winning on a disproportionate basis versus those that are not dealing with those issues. And I remember you you. You shared some some very interesting management philosophy. I don't know if it's still rings true with you around the way in which you look at individuals and it may seem crude but I think it's helpful for the conversation within each team you're going to have natural a B and c players to define. That would be a player as someone that has. Just naturally good. They're driven they're self motivated. They want to do really well. The be players are people who are good employees there good or fairly good at their job but they see it as a job. It's not a career. It's not a passion. It's just something that they do. And then you've got the players whether it be culturally or just skill base are not the right fit potentially for the team and as a manager the objective should be to identify the different pools and then to the best of your ability. Give the a players the resources that they need to thrive while not letting them get too big of an ego that they disrupt the rest of the team. Let the B. Players try to coach the be players up if the if you can maybe get them to an anus or a category get more efficiency out of them and then obviously to coach the players out. If there's nothing you can do to get them to be. Does that does that. Philosophy still ring true for your view change as you mature and and get some more experience. No I think it. I think it's probably true. I might I might describe it. I guess slightly slightly different. Which is there's going to be. Different SKILL SETS. Obviously that need to be deployed to do different things with an organization. But I would encourage people to think about you. Know what are the two or three non-negotiables right that have to be aligned amongst everyone and I think about our organization. I wake up every day and I think that I have the good fortune to have you know. Had A little bit of success in my life. All because financial advisers who are clients have entrusted their. Life's work to me in our team. Yeah and if you see the world through that Lens when your client in our case the financial adviser calls we can't wait to grab the phone or we can't wait to go visit them or call them to spend time with them to support them to help them be successful because the more successful they are the more successful we are so you need regardless of experience or role within the organization. A non negotiable for us Is You have to literally love working with financial advisers right right and their unique People in and professionals And if you don't like working with financial advisors You'RE NOT GONNA make it at dynasty right so I would just encourage You know every entrepreneur to figure out You know again as you're playing chess You know figure out you know. What are the roles and functions? But what are the unique non-negotiables characteristics That You can pull together. That will bind the organization and then from there Yeah you're going to have every team you know has the the All Star shortstop And they might. Have you know someone who comes in and pinch runs and a key situation? Who's very valuable to the team? Coming off the bench is different roles that you play On a winning team But the the central values the central goals the desire to to you know a dynasty As their name implies means winning consistently over time right and and you know people who want to sign up for that Have to be comfortable running at that pace. So you know we're pretty clearly people up front In terms of what those non-negotiables are and and then they come in and and most of the time they perform at that level. If they don't then there shouldn't be any surprise When we encourage them to to find something else to do right in a memory that I have that illustrates this point. That you're just talking about. It was a Friday night You and I were sitting in the office Back at Citi Smith. Barney is probably six thirty and nine. Were pretty much done for the day. We were sitting there talking to each other about Things outside of business and getting ready to go home. You'RE IN WE HAWK IN. I lived in In Brooklyn at the time and I remember a call came in and it was from an advisor in Alabama who had an opportunity with the family relative that you could tell based in the tone of his voice that it was the most important opportunity for him. he was just so excited that potentially had a chance to to to manage some serious assets and I kind of looked at each other. And we're human we. There was that moment where we looked at each other like Like it's six thirty on a Friday night. It's probably time to go home for a second and then We did not our natural instinct or maybe the instinct from the perspective of wanting to help someone financial advisor kicked in and we sat there for like an hour or so and went through the opportunity. And what this individual should do How he should go about a speaking and trying to capture the opportunity. Just think back. That was personally very impactful to me and the way that I looked at it is because that's the difference when we talk about entrepreneurism when we talk about what it takes. It's that last call. It's waking up really early. It's staying really late and you know particularly here and something that I've talked about in the past is many people like to hear about that overnight. Success story there are tons of people. I think you know you're just at Schwab impact. There would say wow dynasty is this fantastic organization and many people want to be a part of it and they see it like almost as an overnight success. You're there's nothing overnight about it right. It's lots of work and lots of effort. No I I totally agree with that Austin and great story and you know I remember so many nights until I fell asleep In my twenties I mean wasn't a particular you know. Big partyer per se. Because I was always at home. Studying in my weekends were were spent with with reading. I. I learned at a at a at a young age in my career that I wasn't going to be necessarily the best that anyone disciplined perhaps in wealth management. But I could be you know one of the best at understanding how it all fit together right right. And that was the early movement of wealth management. where I tried to to be conversational competent and all aspects of wealth management and had the great fortune of growing up inside of an organization that Sandy Weill had built at at city which was a great place to learn the business and it was the largest finance firm in the world for quite some time And people were great. You know I would be the young guy showing up asking all the questions and they would answer them and found it intriguing. I had so many questions were so prepared for the meeting and would just do it over and over again but then probably the most important thing You know about my time they are is. I spent a lot of time in the field with advisors Learning about what made him great where their frustrations were Learning about how it could be helpful But did thousands of an client meetings. And I know you've done a lot of that too because ultimately that's where the rubber meets the road right seeing what's important To the end client What's important to the client adviser Relationship and then understanding how we can how we can add value. And I still get out as I know you do and spend a Lotta time With the advisers and and their end client. And I think it's you know as you think about you. Know kind of keeping the the skill set sharp It's easy you know as you have more success kind of in a corporate career to get further removed from the from the client relationship And that's dangerous. I think you WanNa you WanNa make sure that you're not isolated that you stay close to where the real value prop happens. And that's at you know the point of service with with the client and I think that's something that That we've done You know you and I but also our organization I think about the You. Know Seventy five people or so that we have at the company You know I would say. Probably two thirds of them Have a fair amount of in client experience in all of them have experience working with advisers and I think that's critical to who we are as an organization. I agree so switching gears for a second. We're at a a A new spot. Obviously we've had some success made it past the kind of death knell of three years where most start up companies fail or they don't make it a transition to something else so we've got a relatively. I think good reputation within the marketplace and we're growing like the company has changed from seven or eight of US sitting in a room back to back to multiple locations in different cities across the United States so as the CEO of dynasty and thinking about wisdom that you would impart to other of businesses. Our clients or candidly. Anyone that's an entrepreneur. I mean what do you have to think about as a businesses growing? How do you maintain the culture which is very different from a startup to a mature company And how do you make sure that people stay connected? You is so so talk about our growth. What I what I like about it in terms of the foundation is that it's based in true organic growth and we're growing at a very very large clip right now organically In probably few firms in certainly in our space in the wealth industry are growing faster than we organically. We're you know out there and enclosing kind of deals if you will want one at a time and we haven't done a lot of them in a enlarge part we've been in a lot of processes But we've been very disciplined With our capital Not to chase some of the Froth. Evaluations that that are out there and I think you know you'll see us to be more active as some of these asset prices. Come back down to Earth a little bit more but to have the the fundamental growth engine of an organization Be One that's focused on organic growth Both from the standpoint of us Adding kind of new store sales In new advisers to our platform but also helping to power organic growth for our clients right. That's a very powerful combination where we're adding a handful of of new clients Each year Which have gotten a lot bigger than when we first started the business our our average advisor size when we started nine years ago was probably just some three hundred million. And now it's north eight hundred million right So that that's been great But then the the firms have grown themselves so that that that combination is Has has been powerful but As with anyone who's listening to this WHO's had Explosive growth for an extended period of time right. There are some challenges that come with it right because You can burn your people out If you're not careful when there's certainly been instances where we've done that at at Dynasty There's been times when as you well know yourself You know the the service team or transition team you know. Maybe hasn't been home to see their family months at a time. Because there's just been so much to do and that can be Taxing on people in in in organization and then of course you have to balance the growth and all the new clients and expectations with all of your legacy clients. Right and legacy clients are are so valuable for a whole host. The reasons But they believed in us when when it was a lot more challenging so You know I it. It's it's been a process We certainly haven't gotten it Perfect but I think we're getting better at at scaling the business over time and you have to really higher to that mindset to Austin where you know we'll tell people upfront that look you're going to come in and in six months your role might change right and in eighteen months you might be running a whole new division that we've launched right because we're you know we're growing the business fast we're expanding services to to to our advisor so it's it's very it's very dynamic and it takes a special entrepreneurial mindset. I think to be successful. In in that type of structure there was down. There is video. I think it was put out by sequoia where they're interviewing. Co One of their portfolio companies. I wish I remember the name of the guy that that had this quote because I use it a lot so I'll find it but he said that a startup for start up every day as a tragedy. It's just a matter of whether or not that tragedy actually ends the business or something that needs to be overcome and when I think about dynasty for the most part and we do have some clients that have been Independent for a while that join our platform. I think we're definitely trending more towards those clients as we've matured and obviously learn more about the space but for the most part we have been for a long time a startup company that has been working with other startups which is at times incredibly challenging. And so I think that's a competitive advantage or servicing the entrepreneurs right. There's a philosophical alignment. I you mentioned that the Schwab Impact That I had an opportunity to actually the great fortune in the honor of of kicking it off right Last last week out in San Diego and spend a little bit of time in the in the green room with with chuck Schwab and Walt Bettinger. Who's the CEO? Is You know of Schwab now. And on the way out actually read Chuck's new book invested which as a as an entrepreneur It's it's it's definitely a book I would recommend it's a nice history lesson Of how Bill Schwab also Some of the thought process that he was going through at the time and how he made various decisions but specific to this topic. What he said was when it came time for him to pick a successor He ended up picking Wall In Large Part Walt had started as an entrepreneur himself right. Even though you know at the time I don't know the exact market cap but I'm sure it was probably north of of ten billion or so. Now it's close to fifty But he had acquired it was an acquire higher Of Walt when he had bought his business And he said because he understood all the ups and downs and emotions And I wanted to go back to basics back to that. Entrepreneurial start up you know early day only the paranoid survive all in mentality That walt embodied because he lifted himself right It was fascinating to hear him talk about you. Know that decision making process and now where we sit today with with with dynasty Not that I'm in a hurry to think about my succession plan. But what I do think about and what I just shared With all of our team members At our at our offsite In Saint Petersburg a few weeks ago is what's exciting to me. Is You know dynasties. Made it to a certain level of success But how big or how successful it becomes is no longer up to me right right. It's up to the to the all these new team members That are going to embrace it and want to run with it and make it their own and take it to a complete different level in ways that I never would have imagined and it's GonNa be a lot of fun and fascinating too to see what you all do with it. Yeah and it comes back to again things that are easy to say you know the headlines. The the quotes from Steve Jobs I. It's easy to say you know. Be Paranoid or the only the paranoid survive. It's easy to say you have to at work all of your competitors. It's like anything else like if if if you want to lose weight and you're going to be on a diet will then you actually have to do the things that the Diet States? And that's the For me. That's one of the interesting things both from looking at our company but also in working with advisors who are moving beyond just being of adviser. They're becoming entrepreneurs and being an entrepreneur while they're many complementary skill sets and the foundation of business clients that are generating revenue are similar. It's it's a whole new ballgame for a lot of them because now you're looking at a piano now you're trying to institute in continue to build a culture now you're looking at a strategic view for a company and so. I just think it's interesting that as individuals go through the life cycle of transitioning starting and growing a business that there always has to be that that small element of day one mentality right and not just the mentality of it but actually doing the work. That's the big thing for me is like not saying. Oh I'm GonNa make sure that that Outworking everyone's like actually getting up at five and staying till six day after day and not looking at yourself in the mirror and saying look. I'm the CEO of a company. We're very successful. We've got a good reputation you know what I'm going to take it easy. I totally agree with that. And I think it gets back to when you find you know what it is. You're passionate about you understand your purpose and why you're doing what it is you're doing. It makes that easier to do. I mean look there at the end of the day. We're all human and there. There are some days where You know harder than than others but the vast majority I feel like tomorrow is going to be the best day of my life right. I mean it's like I can't wait to go take on the next challenge and opportunity but when I you know before it started the company I was working on trying to start the company and I get up and get going. Typically about seven o'clock in the morning start working And then I literally don't stop until I go to bed right and I'm not saying that's wrong or right I mean there's certainly people who WanNa talk about balance and there's no balance with that But it's a decision That's been a mutual decision And my my wife and I have two daughters eleven thirteen and we have these conversations together as a family to make sure it's working for all of us But you know dad. An husband goes away All Week essentially And that allows me and they live in a different different place. Typically from where our corporate offices are either New York or in Saint Petersburg Florida and that allows me to wake up in the morning. Run hard all day But when I go home on the weekends I'm incredibly present right right so I'm not on my phone non. Stop in front of my kids. You know I don't I just the way I'm programmed. I'd I'd sleep about six hours a night. so Usually there's a little bit of time to check on emergency issues late at night or first thing in the morning But for the most part I shut down on the weekend but point at that level that level of effort As I said earlier I just think it's. It's part of the buried entry right because most people are not going to do what's required. I mean I still make from an income standpoint significantly less than what I made when I was in my twenties When I had the good fortune of being a senior executive at at city So this is a passion play. This is a love of entrepreneurship and the people get to work with and our clients. ultimately You know taking the long-term view I'll do just fine On the on the equity side But I believe leading from the front right and asking yourself to to to do. I what it is that you're asking your team to do and and I tried to do that by writing for the brand being all in For the long-term financial success in the business for our clients In that requires maximum effort. And I can't see myself just slowing it down. I think at some point When there's someone better suited to take the business to the next level Then then you will approach that then But until then I'm just gonNA keep running the way I'm running in having too much fun not to write. And within within those comments you brought up the the concept of equity which I think is incredibly important to discussions in our segment of the independent space but just overall because I believed that the general public has a very I guess peripheral understanding of how valuable equity can be what it means to be an equity owner of a company and then when evaluating positions jobs careers etcetera the difference between being paid a salary and being a salaried employees versus being a meaningful equity owner in a company and you have done a phenomenal job with all of the employees of dynasty of making them be equity owners. Most people including myself wrote a check to join dynasty Based on the belief that I had in the business but everyone from you know the the top executives down to people that are that are in true service roles reception et Cetera. Have some sort of equity so talk a little bit about that. Talk about it within the lands of the framework of dynasty. But then also you know for our clients as they talk to people particularly in the bringing people on how valuable the equity in their IRA as can be well. The first thing I would say is when you think about for the vast majority of people who've had The the great fortune to build significant. Well they've done it through equity right. There's a handful of exceptions right whether you're An elite Professional Athlete or musician or have unique talent etc You or a handful of top level corporate executives but for most people they're entrepreneurs. They took a calculated risk. Bet ON THEMSELVES. They had a passion. the understood an issue or problem they want to solve for and they went for it and they didn't do it necessarily to get some huge payoff at the end But you know they executed it worked In all of a sudden they're businesses is worth a fair amount of money so I About a dozen years ago When I was working back at at Smith Barney the large organization. I just came to a realization. I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to to to do an equity play And then once kind of it became clear that there was an opportunity to provide platform services to our as and that was my way to keep working with advisors and being entrepreneur Off Off. We went but as most entrepreneurs no the way that you surround yourself by elite talent. Which is how you're GONNA win faster and scale faster Is You're going to have to pay people with with equity and we have a number of clients that are still evaluating how they do that And there's definitely Right and wrong ways to do it I think that a lot of entrepreneurs Myself included you know can make mistakes by not over communicating. What the equity is all about When you do a well I mean there. There're so many examples I love when you know the the the legacy Team members dynasty will yell at the new person because they're printing and color for an internal meeting not black and white because they say colors eight cents. A page in black and white is is one cent. And that's our money right because like you said when you when you stroke a check or you have equity of skin in the game It's very real to you and in some of our Capital rounds over the years. We've allowed team members to sell you know small piece and that really makes real the currency of of the equity but You can't expect people to understand that value Through osmosis right. You have to have that conversation So they understand the value potential. And and how? It's part of the overall compensation equation. I've I've seen scenarios You know with friends who are entrepreneurs and sometimes our business to where people might have even a decent slug of equity. And they don't fully appreciate it. They still feel like they're being significantly under compensated Whereas if you said to them here's the value of your equity divided by the number of year service. And here's what you get paid. It's actually significantly more than maybe what you would made. Elsewhere right And they say oh well. I hadn't thought about it that way. Well that's on me. That's on the leader of the organization That didn't Provide that type of education upfront That would have prevented some of that. Mindset so It's a win win done right It is an incredible motivator instant incredible way to align Central values and goals of of of the organization But like I said earlier It's something that you have to sit down and be thoughtful about not just run into Because if you do it wrong. It can be counterproductive In very dilutive to the leader of the organization. Because you WanNa make sure that you get those rewards in the trade off for for granting of the Equity Right and I think the point you made around compensation in combining your your take home. Income with equity is an incredibly important topic. And the reason why I. I think that is that a lot of and this May. This is a fairly It's not a controversial point of view. But it's a contrarian point of view most studies that you read about employee satisfaction will place compensation third or fourth at the list right. They'll they'll talk about things like Feeling Safe and culture and trust and responsibilities etc and all those things are incredibly important I just believe that a lot of time. The reason why compensation ends up on the list is because a respondent biopsies there. Someone answering that survey doesn't want to appear like money is the most important thing to them but the reality is at least in our society today. Improbably globally money super important for people. It's a huge driver of behavior and so to help people understand that. Their compensation is made up of a couple components particularly if they're part of an equity company that grants equity or that vests equity over time. That's critical like you have to have a way in which you can explain that I see it all the time. In terms of the way that people are talking about sharing their equity or having their equity be part of a deal with someone joining that currency is so important and yet at times. It's almost a downplay like you know. Here's the equity component. Here's your Pale Component. Right because people are industry are trained. All I want to sixty five percent pay I wanNA fifty one more payout in a lump sum and they're very shortsighted versus someone. That can actually do what you're talking about. Which is take a quantitative analysis of what the Pale will be as part of the deal structure and make the right decision. Yeah it's such a good point. I was just reading the fascinating. Study around MEA In the RA space right. And what's interesting? You look at the data right because everyone kind of has these intuitive thoughts about you know where valuations are and what success looks like etc. But it's always it's always fun to look at the actual numbers and look at the data In what you're finding is deals when you look at success over a longer period of time deals that were entered in by someone who was just trying to maximize value right at all costs just just get the highest price versus someone that said okay. Valuation is to your point. One variable while important is other things like cultural fit quality of the platform You know I do I do I do. I fit to culture in a way. That's going to help me. Grow is a mechanism in place to help with brand development. You know is the team professionally. Run do I believe that? It's GonNa has sustained organic inorganic growth overtime. All of those things. So that I might transact where I might take fifty percent in cash and fifty percent equity in the new venture but I end up being long term greedy in that because that organization that I've now joined has the benefit of scale And we will continue to grow together said ultimately maybe there's that second bite of the apple that happens down road and I sell my equity. When I look at what I would've had by maximizing you know at Point A. versus selling a little bit Early on and then selling the rest of it at a higher valuation down the road. I'm better off my employees. Were better off. My clients are better off If more people kind of took that perspective at looking at You know alignment share how you know around How they choose to work whether it's sell their business to or join an organization in line at through equity It's incredibly powerful again. When when done right yeah I think part of the issue and it's it's not a global issue but it's definitely an issue within the independent space particularly for advisors that are leaving traditional financial institution. Starting their own is that conceptually things like the net present value of a decision often times even brought into the equation so not to get Kiki but when you hire a person what does that do to your PNL. And how does that impact on your media pl impact your longer term enterprise value the company? How do you make decisions is it? Is it a kneejerk reaction you feel? Or there's there's commentary from your support team that they don't have enough help so then you go out and hire another person or is there a very analytic way by which individuals are acting as true entrepreneurs and making decisions based on financial information versus knee-jerk? And I think and you talk a lot about this the advisor to C. E. O. Transition is incredibly important. Like how do you do that because it is a mindset change? It's not just I've got you know. Fifty households and they're generating x amount of revenue as long as I keep them happy run. The business is better because I have. I have better margins. It's gotta be something different. So how do you? How do you do that like what do you? What do you say to people to get them thinking about what they do as a business and transitioning from that adviser to a CEO? Yeah it's it's a process absolutely. I mean it's not something that happens overnight. I mean it starts with with understanding the language of business right so understanding how to read a balance sheet which some advisors do from a analytic investment perspective But when you look at you know the the the Peon of Rei it's not overly complicated once you spend the time to really dig in but you need to think about in. No what am I fixed costs. What am I variable costs? What's my total cost structure? That gets me to my gross income. What's advisor Com going to be if I have multiple advisors at my firm And then after I subtract advisor compound. What's my what's my net income. And how do I grow it over time and one of the the leverage that I can pull will increase the multiple that I can get On on that business overtime so the people who are building and running the best businesses that we see are the ones that really enjoy that right And it's okay if you don't and you may want to hire a coo or someone within the business to help do more of the day to day you know the business operations But I think if you look at some of these large scaled veran set are evolving. Many of them are run by what I would say. Our former advisers share that have evolved to now being. Ceo's of wealth advisory businesses right. So they went from having a practice To now running an organization in some cases have multiple offices and multiple cities and. I think you're GonNa see many National Ari as down the road and you know a dynasty. Is that kind of Intel sticker if you will this powering a lot of those devices and you know we have Aggressive ambition to power. You know some of the big Scaled advisory businesses So when we're evaluating a new partner in a new market one of the biggest things that we look at quality leadership and how committed they to their own professional development. How committed are they to evolving? you know it's the professionalization on the business to being You know a little bit more of that. Ceo where we're providing supported independence to them. But they're excited about thinking through Enterprise value creation and similar to a lot of their clients. Who Entrepreneurs Right. There's that alignment in philosophy. Servicing entrepreneurs will now. Let's bring that into our own business Think about what's my five year brand architecture and how's it going to evolve? How do we build an economic to the to the point that I think you made well Which is not just a business plan. But where do I want my business to be at five million? Ten million twenty million revenue. What should the margins be? When should I add other services or people tying that to the to the Economic Model I think is a really good tool It's not something that you have to necessarily follow exactly. But as an entrepreneur to be able to go back and refer to to help you reflect on various investments and decisions that you might WanNa make in the business I've found it to be very helpful last question one minute or less. Can you do that? But I'm sure for someone coming into wealth management financial services whatever vernacular you want us to to kind of categorize. What is that we do? What would you say to them? Well the first thing I would say to to New People but also people who maybe want to change careers and come in is please do it. Because as an industry we need more high integrity high quality people At a time in this country where financial wellness I think is a real concern. Individuals for Pensions Endowments States Federal Government. We need to get financially healthier As a as as an entire country And I think having independent advice delivered by quality advisor separate from where products manufactured and sold at least gives those entities A good starting point To be able to get great advice so please. I hope more people getting courage and we as an industry have to bring more people in for New People. I think it's fairly simple There's no substitute for hard work You have to put the time in And invest in your competency. Your own professional development read And ultimately the second point is fine. Great Mentors I tell young people starting out. It's more valuable than what you make Is that you work for a with people who care about your development. They're going to give you interesting things they're going to challenge you push you allow you to fail And ultimately grow fast. That's in the first. You know three to five years of your career Being in that type of environment you should trade that all day long Versus you know an extra couple thousand dollars to work somewhere where you don't have that type of support awesome. Had A really good time. Thanks sure thank you happy and I was always a lot of fun to spend time with you. I hope you enjoyed our independence podcast in the conversation with Zero Penny. Ceo Dynasty financial partners. I would also like to personally think Cheryl being in the studio with me and taking some time out of his busy schedule and as a reminder to listeners This will be coming out on a regular basis so stay tuned for next episode.

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Helicopter money was meant to be a joke  Ep 550

The Peter Schiff Show Podcast

50:56 min | 1 year ago

Helicopter money was meant to be a joke Ep 550

"The leadership well today the Dow broke its string of eight consecutive days of thousand point moves in one direction or the other. We actually finished with a slight gain today. The Dow one hundred eight point two seven points not even one percent so a pretty small move. The bigger move was in the smaller stocks and most beaten down Russell. Two thousand that index was up almost seven percent on the day. But this of course follows yesterday's plunge at one point. The Dow was off better than two thousand points yesterday but it ended up closing a doubt a little under fourteen hundred at the lowes. The Dow Jones was below nineteen thousand. That low got all the way down to eighteen thousand nine hundred seventeen spot for six that I think is about a thirty six percent decline thus far in this bear market at the lowes the Russell. Two thousand was actually down by forty four percent. I read something today that I something like half. The stocks are now down fifty percent off their highs or something like that so this bear market has already very brutal. And it's really only gotten started but if you really want to know the truth the bear market has been going on for about twenty one years. Now how can you say that right? Twenty one years whether it be we were just at a record high. The Dow hit a record high in February. We were almost thirty thousand. How could we be in a bear market? Well if you want to measure the price of the Dow in terms of real money which is something that we really should be a focused on now. More than ever in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine priced in gold which is real money the Dow was worth forty two ounces of gold so it took you forty two ounces of gold to buy the doubt it took the prices the Dow and divided by the price of gold well yesterday morning when the Dow was near its lows. The price of the Dow was less than thirteen Alice's gold right now. With a slight rebound. You're looking at about thirteen. And a half ounces of gold in two thousand and twenty but in two thousand nine hundred ninety nine you needed forty two ounces of gold to buy the Dow so in terms of gold. The price of the Dow Jones has down has fallen by seventy percent over twenty. One years. What do you call that? If that's not a bear market what is it a seventy percent decline in twenty one years now if you are pricing the Dow in terms of. Us dollars sure. It looks like the Dow has gone up. But what if the Dow is not going up? What if the dollar is going down? And so when you're measuring the Dow in dollars you really are not measuring it properly. You're not really getting a good idea of what's really happening. But I think looking at the Dow Jones in terms of the price of gold is more important now than ever before. Now that we're printing money like it's going out of style. Last balance-sheet numbers came out this afternoon. for the most recent week and the Federal Reserve reported a three hundred and fifty six billion dollar increase in its balance sheet in the most recent week the balance sheet now stands at a record high four point six six eight trillion dollars so it is now higher than it was at its highest point before the. Fed started to try to shrink it in fact if you look at the three hundred and fifty six billion dollar increase in one week that represents about four and a half months of qe three when they were doing eighty billion a month. They did three hundred fifty six billion in one week. And I'm sure when we get the numbers next week. The number is going to be over half a trillion dollars. I mean who knows how much higher it's going to be but you know what it's just not going to stop the balance you is going to keep on growing and growing and growing so it's really important to start thinking about the Dow in terms of the price of gold. Because that's going to be the only really way to get a handle on what's going on and I think this twenty one year old bear market is going to continue for a long time and what I've been saying all along. Is that when this bear? Market bottoms out. The Dow Jones will be worth about one ounce of goal. Now people think well what is crazy. How's it going to be worth one ounce of gold well if you look at the two most significant stock market bottoms that we've had really following the longest bear markets? You had the nineteen thirty two crash from twenty nine where the Dow was at about twenty ounces of gold at its peak into nine hundred twenty nine and it bottomed out at about one ounce of gold in nineteen thirty two then we had the Dow peaking in Nineteen Sixty six at about twenty ounces of gold similar to the nineteen twenty nine peak and then it bottomed out in around nineteen eighty at about one ounce of gold right word the Dow and a gold. We're about eight hundred dollars each eight hundred dollars for gold eight hundred now so. I think the same thing could happen again. You know. Maybe a won't get all the way to one to one. Maybe it'll get to two one to say but I think one to one is a reasonable target given the amount of money that we're about to print and the fact that I think as an economy the US is in far worse shape than it was in the nineteen thirties or the nineteen seventies. So if we could go down to one ounce gold back then I see no reasonably why we can't do that again now. You know. It doesn't really matter where to meet. What matters is that they meet so they could meet with the Dow Jones going down they could meet with the Dow Jones at ten thousand and Golda ten thousand. Now that's not that unrealistic. I mean we already moved from thirty thousand to nineteen thousand. We're right at twenty thousand now. Could we go back to ten thousand sure we could? I mean we were at ten thousand below ten thousand at the bottom two thousand and eight now. There are many stock markets around the world that have already retraced the entire rally since two thousand eight. So they're back where they were when the Dow was under ten thousand so it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that the Dow Jones can go down to ten thousand and I think that in that environment. It's very possible that the price of gold news from about fifteen hundred. It's a little below that right now but it moves from fifteen hundred to ten thousand. That's about what a six seven fold increase in the price of gold. I mean that's not unrealistic. I mean it made a bigger move in the nineteen seventies when a gold went from thirty five dollars. An ounce to eight hundred I mean. That's a far bigger move. Even if you go back to the original rally that we had earlier this century when Goldwyn from three hundred to one thousand nine hundred that was about a six fold increase so the move that I am talking about. Ten thousand is a very similar. Move to the move that we had from two thousand to two thousand eleven so I think it's very easy to do that. I mean clearly the amount of money that we're GONNA print in this decade is GonNa Dwarf the amount of money that we printed in that decade. And so certainly goal can go to ten thousand in an environment where the. Dow Falls to ten thousand. And that gets you at one one but it could happen with the Dow at twenty thousand because the Fed create so much inflation. The Dow doesn't really fall but in that environment the price of gold goes up to twenty thousand. Also they can beat their or. It's possible that Bedell can go to fifty thousand because we have hyper inflation but goal goes to fifty thousand to one to one so I think the important thing is not where they meet. The important thing is that they do meet or they come close to meeting. And so that's how you can keep this thing in perspective now. A lot of people think you know. Why isn't the price of gold already? Soaring right why is the price of silver down around twelve dollars an ounce? I mean if it's going to go away. Why isn't it already going way up and again I think what's happening right? Now is more about a rush to liquidity among the bigger leverage investors around the world. You're having all kinds of problems. In the credit and the bond markets people are really squeezed for cash because the economy is shutting down and businesses are shutting down and so people are selling everything. I mean they're not really thinking this through they're not trying to make decisions based on the long term. They're just trying to raise the cash that they need in the short run. So you're seeing a lot of selling pressure in medals in that market. But you're not seeing it in the retail market right. I mean we have a company shift. Gold and ourselves are picking up. We're actually getting a lot of sales. And in fact so are a lot of other dealers all around the country you know. I bought for myself this morning. So more silver around. One ounce silver rounds. I wanted to have more of those and so I bought some this morning and I had no problem buying them lock in the price and I could buy them. But it's going to be two to three months before I can take delivery of my silver now. Normally if you were to buy some silver from SHIFT GOLD. You could get delivery the next day or two. I mean it's you know it happens. Pretty quickly but the wholesalers don't have any inventory all the silver's gone they have to wait for the fabricators to produce more. Who probably have to wait for the minds to deliver more. So you have this big backlog. You might think wait a minute. If so many people are buying silver. How's it that the prices are going down? Well the people who are buying it are very different from the big institutions are selling it and a lot of the silver. That's being sold silver. That's in the and people are selling mining stocks and so a lot of the people are trading or trading silver futures. You're talking about people who don't actually own. The silver never had any intention of taking delivery and now they're just closing out a position because they have a margin call or they need to cash as opposed to clients of shift gold and other gold dealers around the globe where people are actually buying gold and silver because they want to own it and so the normal reaction to somebody who buys silver. Would you see the price go down? It's like sale right. Oh I can buy more silver for for my money so let me buy more and especially to and people forget about this if you have a lot of gold and you don't have a lot of silver you could use your gold to buy silver. It's now better than one hundred twenty Alice's a goal. I think the last time I mentioned out on the podcast I said it was about one hundred. Four ounces of silver for one ounce of gold. You can now buy better than one hundred twenty Alice's silver for a single out the goal and at the moment I really can't think of a better thing to spend your golden and Silver. Gold is money and you could use that money to buy yourself some silver and in fact you could do that shift gold and you don't have any silver and you have a bunch of gold take some of your goals not all of your gold but take some of your goals and buy some silver with it right shift goal will buy back your bolt and cellular silver now. You're going to have to wait a while to get it but I think it's going to be worth the wait. And then you can hold onto that silver at at some point when the ratio comes in. And maybe it's fifty to one or twenty two one right. If it silver really makes a move you could sell your silver and get your goal back except you'll end up getting a lot more gold than you spent to buy the silver. Maybe when you when you buy your silver it costs you one ounce of gold by it and by the time you sell it you get four or five ounces of gold back right because you WANNA keep track of your goal right you want. You want to add to or accumulate. Alice's of gold and maybe converting some of your gold two silver right now in the long run will allow you to have more goal. You know the only problem with that is of course the tax man depending on where you live what your taxes may or may not be when you make does those exchanges. But I think what's happening in. The real market is a better indication of what's going to happen to the price of gold and silver. Then what's happening in the paper market? What's happening in markets? That really have their own set of fundamentals. And we're in the short run. You have a lot of noise and a lot of that too. I think is coming from the big moves that we're seeing in the foreign exchange markets. I mean obviously this has to do with scramble. For SHORT-TERM LIQUIDITY DOLLAR LIQUIDITY. You know I was watching last night as the Australian dollar plunged by better than four percent. It was just getting obliterated. It was down below fifty five cents to the US dollar. But we haven't seen the ozzy dollar this cheap. I think since the bottoms during the eight financial crisis and we were way down their New Zealand dollar to down about the same percentage and then at one point this morning not only the Australian dollar recover the entire decline but was actually up two and a half percent so about a six and a half percent intraday swing in the Australian dollar as I'm recording this. Now it's kind of unchanged based on where it was the day before but unprecedented real overnight volatility or. I mean it probably happened back in. Oh eight but I mean we don't see this kind of moves into forty change markets and then this morning the dollar just went on a tear against the Euro Swiss franc. The Japanese yen dollar was up about two percent pretty much against most of those currencies dollar index closed up about one point six which is a one point six percent move. That's a big move. We close at one zero to spot seven eight. So this is the highest. The dollar index is banned in some time. Now you might think wait a minute. I mean we're printing all these dollars. I mean trillions and trillions of dollars about to be created out of thin air. Wire those dollars now more valuable but again in short run none of those long term fundamentals matter right now people are scrambling to get dollars and so they're paying for them you know. The volatility also is going on in the Treasury Bond Market Bond bubble that I talked about bursting. It's beginning to look more and more like that. Forecasts is going to end up being correct yesterday. The yield on the thirty year government bond got all the way back up to one point nine percent. Now that's not a very high yield but compared to where it was at the lowes. That's a big move and the yield on the ten year was above one point two as I'm recording. Now we're at one point seven eight on a thirty year so we had a bit of a rally in the bonds today coming off of Wednesday's drumming and the ten year now is about one point one four but still yields are backing up and again. It's not just the treasury market. It's in the corporate bond market. It's in the media bond market and that's despite the Federal Reserve's now doing quantitative easing and in those markets but going from the sublime to the ridiculous where things really get absurd is at the short end of the curve right because if you look at the yield on three month treasury bills it's now negative. The yield is negative point zero three percent so that means that if you buy a three month treasury bill and then you wait three months to get your money back. You're going to get back a little less than you. Then you load. So what is the point of doing it right? I mean you're GONNA get back less than you start with. Just leave it in cash but people are buying these bills with a negative. You'll now the six month bill. It's not negative but it's zero and you have to tie your money up for six whole months. I mean what's the point of doing that? Hey I'm gonNA lend the government my money for six months and then they're going to give me back Zach same amount of money six months later then. Why make the loan right? This is the absurdity of negative percent rates or zero percent rates. Even though it looks ridiculous that somebody would make this available. They're doing it now. Of course as long as possible as long as the government can borrow at no cost or negative costs. Donald Trump got his wish he wished for negative rates here. They are negative three bill rates so the government can finance some of its deficits now. It could sell bills and it's getting paid to borrow and obviously when this is happening. This makes a lot of this debt seemed viable except nothing. That can't go on forever will go on forever and what happens when these yields really start to spike. Because eventually that's exactly what's going to happen. And in fact most recently the Federal Reserve announced that it is now got a special facility to bail out money markets because without the Federal Reserve. Bailing out the money markets. A lot of these money market accounts would actually break the buck. And what that means is when people have a money market account. They expect that the money market account is worth one dollar every day. So if you put ten thousand dollars into a money market most people think that they always will have ten thousand that they're not taking any risk and that they're balanced could ever change like a bank account. Well it's not because you have all sorts of securities in there that could lose value and would be losing value if it wasn't for the Fed. Now imagine what would happen if somebody opens up their statement one morning for their money market they go online and they had ten thousand dollars and then they look and they don't have ten thousand ninety eight hundred. They lost two hundred dollars. A lot of people would be very concerned about the fact that they just lost two hundred dollars which considering how little the interest rate is a money market that could be a couple of years worth of interest and people might think what am I doing. Why do I have my money? And his money market if I could lose money and I'm barely getting any interest limit. Just sell the money market and go to cash will imagine if everybody did that at the same time well the money markets would have to start unloading securities which would just fuel the fire. You'd ever run on the money markets so now. The Fed is doing this the last time they did. This was in two thousand eight. No of course. The media's still wants to pretend that this isn't a financial crisis accept everything that the Fed did during the financial crisis. They're doing now only doing it bigger because in reality. This is a much bigger financial crisis. Because whenever you're a highly leveraged economy right anything becomes a financial crisis. Defense Crisis of two thousand eight was because people were defaulting on their mortgages and then that rippled through the banking system. Well more people are defaulting. Now we are having bigger defaults industry-wide than we had in in two thousand eight in fact I did a podcast not too long ago about the bailouts. Because I saw trump's speech and in his speech he was asked whether or not he would support a bailout out for the airlines and he said well you know probably. They haven't asked me but if they asked me sure am. I would sit important industry. We need that industry. And then you know I titled that Podcast. Bailouts SPREADS NATIONWIDE BECAUSE BASICALLY. It looked like the president was making an open. Invitation that anybody who wanted to bail out to just ask and they would get one and I said okay. Well this is going to be a run on bailouts and sure enough you know. Everybody wants to bail out. I mean it's not. Just the airlines and Boeing. That wants to bail out but the cruise liners want bailouts to hotels want bailouts. The restaurants want bailouts. You know even now. The movie theaters right. All of these industries have come together and they have representatives or lobbyists that are going to Washington making their case. Why they need to be bailed out right because any industry that is closing down right places where the public gathers right all of these companies. Want to be bailed out. Of course. Why shouldn't they? I mean if everybody else is getting bailed out why not get your piece of the action and the last I heard this afternoon I think the price tag for the bailouts that they were already contemplating was about one point three trillion dollars. I mean at. Its and the clock is still ticking. Every company is going to get a bailout and of course. How do we know how long this whole thing is going to? Last right I mean. How many bailouts are they going to need? How long is the nation going to be on lockdown or shutdown? I mean I don't know right I mean. And what if the corona virus doesn't go away? Then what if it does go away and then it comes back. What if it's here you know seasonally every winter and we have to keep closing down? I mean we're going to continuously provide bailouts to all these companies. I mean this is where we're going and I think right now because the knee jerk reaction to the dollar is going up you know people think that oh I guess we can keep creating dollars right. We can print as many as we walk getting more valuable. We've been printing them up and putting them up and look. The dollar is buying more and more right. They have no idea what ultimately is going to happen. When the dollar comes crashing down you know the fact that everybody thinks that the bailouts and quantitative easing worked when the Fed did it and the government did it in two thousand and eight. This basely created a real moral hazard and a real problem because now everybody thinks that that's the correct policy. People forget that it was supposed to be temporary right. They have short memories and the Fed was supposed to be able to shrink. It's balance sheet and normalize interest rates. Obviously they never were able to achieve anything that they promised. And Ben Ben. Aki was in fact. Monetize in debt. I mean if you didn't know that when he denied it on Capitol Hill. You gotTa know it now. That's what he was doing but people just think that there's no negative consequence because they think it works right. We had the longest recovery ever. We had the longest a bull market ever record-breaking bull market and that was because we did the bailouts and we did a quantitative easing. And so now we can just do even bigger bailouts we can do even more quantitative easing because of it worked back then then doing even more of it now should work even better accept. It won't because again the reason it worked the first time is because of the fact that everybody believed it was temporary. Everybody believed that there was an end. Could reverse policy. Nobody is going to believe that now right so the moral hazards for not only that. We bailed everybody out which means that everybody expected to get bailed out again right. How do we let? Some of the industry's fail in two thousand eight and had not set that precedent. Then we wouldn't be bailing out so many industries now but if the government and the Fed didn't have so much false confidence that they could do it again because it worked last time and so now they're really cranking it up dude on a bigger scale just because they could take the balance sheet from you know under a trillion to four and a half trillion doesn't mean they can take it from four and a trillion to ten trillion or twenty trillion right just because the government could take the national debt from eight trillion to twenty three trillion. Doesn't mean they can take it from twenty three trillion to fifty trillion or sixty trillion. Right I mean we can't do that. We can't have the national debt two to three times the value of GDP. And you get you gotta think about what else is going on at the same time because when we did quantitative easing the first time not only was the Federal Reserve buying US Treasuries. But you know us. Treasuries were being bought all around the world. Japanese Chinese the Saudis Right. Everybody was loading up on. Us Treasuries back. Then that's not gonNA happen now. See the whole world is in trouble right. The whole world has the corona virus. And everybody is putting people. On lockdown and businesses are shutting down and other countries are also trying to stimulate their economies in and bail out their economy. So what's going to happen is all these countries that are sitting on piles of US Treasuries Right. They're going to be cashing in those. I owe us or just not rolling them over right when they're short term treasuries expire. They're going to need the money right. They need the money for their own economies. They don't they. Don't WanNa lend the money to us. They need the money themselves. They have surpluses in the past. But now there's this emergency so the Japanese instead of rolling over treasuries we'll just let the mature same thing with the Chinese are everybody else. The Saudis. Obviously don't need as many treasuries they don't have big surpluses anymore with twenty five dollar oil by the way oil. I think had a record breaking day today. As far as percentage gain at one point I saw it up about six dollars a barrel. But that's because we're coming off of yesterday's collapse were oil. Was Route Twenty dollars a barrel so today we closed up forty two at twenty five sixty two but we got us. Hi is actually twenty eight at one point so it was even higher than I thought. Yesterday it closed at like twenty and a half so even though it's a huge percentage gain. You're still only talking about twenty five and a half dollar oil approximately so you know OPEC. Nations are not going to have a bunch of money to loan to the US government with oil prices. This low so all of these other countries are going to be sellers of US treasuries and in addition to monetize ing the massive deficits in the United States to pay for all the bailouts. The stimulus they're going to have to monetize that but there's going to be another big seller of US treasuries that's going to compete with the government and foreign countries and that's the social security trust funds. You know quote Unquote Trust Funds. I mean they're not really trust funds but the social security funds own trillions of dollars worth of US treasuries and right now even before rather the corona virus. When everybody was still working the social security was running a slight deficit. Meaning they weren't quite collecting enough in payroll taxes to cover the cost of current social security benefits so the trust funds were dragging down a little bit but now they're about to implode because the government is going to collect a lot less in payroll taxes when the unemployment rate spikes up. I don't know how highest GONNA get can easily get to ten percent can go much higher than that. And so a lot of people are going to be filing unemployment claims and so when people are employed and they're not working they are not contributing to the social security system and so in order for the Social Security trust funds to have the money to send out to the Kurt Recipients. They're going to be selling. Us Treasury so they're not going to be rolling over the treasurer's. They have because they need the cash you know we did get the weekly unemployment claims that came out earlier. Today we had a spike of about seventy thousand for the week right now. We're two hundred and eighty-one thousand claims. But I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. I think we're GONNA see much much bigger increases in. I just read an article last week in three days during the week. I think Connecticut alone. During three days there were twenty thousand. New Unemployment claims filed an Connecticut's a small state and that was three days and so these numbers are clearly going to get much much bigger but there are also talking about payroll tax holidays or payroll tax cuts and. I'm pretty sure we're going to get that as I said in an earlier. Podcast this is going to be an auction for whoever can give away the most free stop. This is an election year. Donald trump is now behind in the polls. He's not the favourite anymore. He was the favourite. He's now the underdog and so he's gotTa try to by himself another term by giving away as much stuff as he. Can you know? Congress is working on a new stimulus now by the way the president signed and obviously the Senate passed the first relief. Bill a horrible bill which has within it the mandatory leave. There is a permanent leave now all. Us businesses that have fewer than five hundred. Employees will provide everyone of their workers with two weeks of paid vacation where they get one hundred percent and I paid vacation rather paid sick leave where they get one hundred percent of their salary and obviously since people are required employers are required provided it whether the employee wants it or not. Every employee is going to take two weeks off right. He's going to be sick and he's GonNa want the money because otherwise you don't get it right and since it's already baked into your employment because now when people get hired employers are going to know that they're going to have to give their workers. Two weeks paid sick. Leave they're going to have to have a lower base pay to cover that cost and so every worker is going to take the two weeks off whether he's sick or not. Who knows. I mean because otherwise. You're you're destroying your money so I think it's religious. Two weeks paid vacations. I mean maybe you get sick Maybe you don't I mean there are probably people that are pretty healthy. That don't get sick that often. That don't need two weeks and I'm sure. A lot of people can stagger them. I think a lot of people are going to be using their sick days on Monday morning. You know because they just want three day weekends or Fridays because they want a three day weekend on that side. I mean that's what people are GonNa do. This simply increases the cost right. It's just another employment cost another obstacle another barrier to entry another reason to hire fewer employees or not hire any employees at all and also what is in this bill. I is the family. Leave where you get up to three months with two thirds of your pay just because your kid is not in school and you want to stay home and take care of them. Well now you can do that for two thirds of your pay which a lot of people is a pretty good deal especially if they had transportation cost to get back and forth to work and they were eating lunch in a restaurant. It's cheaper maybe to have it at home so to get two thirds of your salary but never have to leave your house. A lot of people prefer that to work anyway. Especially if they have a mundane job that they they really don't like doing and they just constantly waiting for quitting time so again. This is another burden. Small Business Owners are going to have to cover these costs and they may not have the ability to do that so this is not a good bill. I'm surprised that so few Republicans voted against it. No Democrats voted against it. That doesn't surprise me. You only had I think eight Republicans that voted against the bill. And of course. The president signed the bill and again he talks about deregulation. He wants deregulation well. This is a regulation right. This is the government telling businesses how they have to compensate their employees. You must pay your employees for two weeks of sick leave whether you want to or they want to. We don't care about your own deal that you make you know we're going to get in between the employer and the employee and we're going to dictate that this is something that you need to offer and. I'm sure that they're just going to increase this. I'm sure there's a lot more a mandate said we're going to be added on during this crisis as I said you know. The government never raised the crisis and this is a crisis. I mean. Donald Trump says he's a wartime president and this is a war and yeah and you know. My father used to tell me all the time. America lost every war that had ever fought and the reason that we lost every war because we ended the war with less freedom than when the war started because the government takes advantage of the wartime environment to pass legislation that increases the size of government and increases taxes that during peacetime they could never pass. But once you're at war then pretty much gave wherever that anything I mean. I don't think any of the Republicans who voted for this mandatory paid leave. I don't think they would have voted it board but for the corona virus but once we have the corona virus and there's an emergency and now so many Americans are not at work and so many people would immediately see a cheque because remember. This is being imposed now. Retroactively so employers employees didn't know about this when they started their relationship so it wasn't negotiated as part of the salary. And so now all of a sudden the government comes in and mandates something and in fact you even get paid retroactively if you were staying home and taking care of your kids for the last week or two will now. You're going to get paid even if you weren't GonNa get paid before you get paid now so I think in this environment. Principal goes out the window so it doesn't matter if you're a conservative or libertarian. What matters is you don't WanNa be the guy who's against this. People are afraid to stand up just like you know when they passed the Patriot Act. Nobody wanted to vote against the Patriot. Act after nine eleven even though it was probably the most unpatriotic piece of legislation ever created. Nobody had the guts to stand up and say so because of the environment that we were in I mentioned the World War. Two victory tax withholding tax. There is no way that during peacetime any politician would have voted to withhold income taxes from people's pay right especially when fewer than three percent of the people were paying the tax and then they jack it up to thirty percent and they said. Oh by the way we're going to take the income tax right out of your paycheck before you even see the money. There's no way they could have done that during peacetime but when you're at war and you're fighting Japan and the Nazis and you're at home right and you're working you're not on the front fighting and the government says. Hey we need to take some money out of your paycheck so we can you know? Support the troops. Nobody's going to object to that not during a war. They never would've allowed it during peacetime so the gover- took advantage of the war to increase taxes that they never could have done during peacetime debt. Of course when the war was over well they never surrendered that power. They'd ever repeal that tax because they never want to give up power after they grab it right they just constantly build on it and build on it and so they're going to be building on a lot of stuff during corona virus crisis. But you know I think the most ridiculous aspect of yesterday's you know collapse in the stock market watching on CNBC and they have like one big guest after another. You know real big people in the industry. They got mark Cuban on there any Ross. Sorkin was talking about stuff sandy. Weill was on a lot of these guys are doing interviews via skype and so he was held up in his vacation house somewhere but probably the biggest one was bill. Ackman pershing square hedge fund manager. And you know everybody has an idea right. Everybody has advice on what the government should do and all of it is wrong but the most amazing thing about it is that nobody sees the consequences. I mean Bill Ackman was very upfront about his concerns about what's going to happen to the economy about all these companies going bank rob- I think he specified Hilton hotels but a lot of companies are going to go bankrupt if they don't get bailed out and so therefore we need to bail him out and it doesn't really occur to him their reason that all of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy is because they have so much debt and the only reason they have so much debt is because of the Fed policy that he wants to continue and if we bail them out we again establish or reinforce the precedent that if you fail you're GONNA get bailed out and you know I know just by listening to what we're having listened to what the president saying you have the Democrats controlling Congress and all of these bailouts are going to be disastrous for the companies. That get bailed out. Because they're going to have to agree to conditions that are gonNA make them uncompetitive and inefficient and basically make them. Permanent Wards of the state The politicians are saying that they don't want to bail out management or the shareholders. They really just want to bail out the workers and so they want to make sure that in the future. These companies operate for the benefit of the workers really not the shareholders. So what's the point of of bailing them out if they become socialist cooperatives? You know run for the workers. I mean. This is going to be a complete disaster as I said. On the other podcast. It's much better to let these companies go bankrupt now. People want to pretend that if the companies go bankrupt that the industries are gonNA disappear right. Donald trump is like you know the hotel industries the casinos The airlines the cruise industry. These are important industries. We can't just let them go. They're not going to go away. You think those cruise ships are gonNA disappear if the cruise ship companies go bankrupt. No those cruise ships are still going to be there. Except THEY'RE GONNA change ownership. You're going to have new management new shareholders in place to run the businesses. The hotels aren't going anywhere because see those aren't going anywhere they're already there. They've already been built. You see what happens if we allow the bankruptcies is investors like Ackman and a lot of other people are going to lose money. That's what they're concerned about. It's not that the industries are going to go away. It's that the people that over paid for the stocks or who loaned the companies. Too much money. They're going to lose. They're going to suffer losses so all these guys are really talking their own book. They want to bail out for themselves. It's not a bailout for the consumer. Because sooner is going to get a better deal if we let these companies go bankrupt because if we let them go bankrupt all the debt is gone and if these companies can operate without debt will they charge lower prices. They can offer a better service. Dow with debt or now they ended up getting bailed out by the government and now the government is calling the shots. The government is micromanaging. These companies disservices GONNA stink. The consumers will be better. Served that people who fly on the planes staying in the hotels. Go to the movie theaters right. All the consumers will be better off if all of these companies go bankrupt. Now what about the workers right because people keep saying well we care about the workers we care about the people who work in the hotels and we care about the people who work in the casinos and the movie theaters. Look the new owners. We're going to have to hire somebody. They can't run the the casinos by themselves. They still need dealers. They still need waitresses right. I mean the all the people still have jobs now maybe not all the maybe the businesses are going to have to get a little leaner. They're going to have to scale back and maybe they're going to have to lay off some people but in the long run they're gonNA lay off a lot more people if the government is in charge and makes them uncompetitive and inefficient and eventually drives them out of business completely in the future. So it's actually better for the workers. As far as the number of jobs that are ultimately maintained and it's one hundred percent better for the customers if we allow a bankruptcy and restructuring and of course it's not like during the bankruptcy the planes aren't GonNa fly and the hotels aren't cannot be opened. They will be open. You know behind the scenes. The ownership will be changing hands. But they're not going to shut these things down so you know I mean this financial fact there was one guy I saw him on. Cbc and this was probably about a week or two ago not even recent and this guy was talking about while the Fed needs to bail. Bail Out Wall Street and this is before they actually announced the bailouts and he's specifically said this and I couldn't even believe I was hearing this but he said that the Fed needs to provide liquidity to hedge funds. Because he said that you know hedge funds liked to lever up. They like to borrow a lot of money to increase their returns. They liked to make bets but they want to do it. On leverage and the credit markets are kind of seizing up and so it's harder for hedge funds to borrow the money that they need to lever up their portfolio to try to make a big profits and so the Federal Reserve should provide the liquidity to these hedge funds. And I couldn't believe it. So basically this guy saying that you have billionaires are running hedge funds for their millionaire clients and the government should step up and loan them money to gamble with so that they can make more money gambling with cheap money to think for the Federal Reserve. I couldn't believe that and of course the guy on CBC he was talking to. He didn't think there was anything wrong with that. Oh sure no problem so all of this. Don't believe all this nonsense about the bailouts being good for the economy. The bailouts being good for workers the bailouts being good for the consumers. They're not they're only good for the investors who should've lost and the incompetent management teams. That should have been replaced. That is all that is getting bailed out now I know now. We're hearing some of the people on Capitol Hill Right the Democrats in particular. Hey we don't want to bail out Boeing right. They levered up and they bought back stock and now now because they spend all that money buying back stock now they need to bail out right and they forget that nobody would have bought stock if the Fed hadn't kept interest rates so low and of course the whole time they were buying back stock. Donald Trump was cheerleading. Get pay a new high in the Dow new high in the Dow. Look how much you're making right. Why was that happening? It was happening because of all these buybacks right. It wasn't the earnings going up that was driving stock prices. So now they want to say oh you did all that and now we're going to bail you out one of the other things that they're talking about now in exchange for the bailout money that the government is going to get equity in these companies right so the government is basically taking ownership of a piece of the companies. They're going to have seats on the Board. And they're going to be instrumental in running these companies which means that anybody who owns any of the companies right if you're a stockholder in any of the companies that gets bailed out you got to sell because that company is no longer to be managed with your interests. At heart these are not going to be profit. Maximizing companies they're going to be wage maximizing companies right benefit maximizing companies. Which means they're GONNA eventually be bankrupt companies. Because if you don't watch your costs you're not going to succeed. Especially if they have competitors who are being run with the profit motive who are managed by people who are cost conscious and who are trying to deliver a quality products remember the reason that businesses try to limit their costs is because consumers demand the lowest price and they shop around. So if you have a company that's been bailed out by the government and now the government is calling the shots and preventing them from reducing labor costs or or things like that but their competitors are able to do it and now they're able to undercut them be bailed out. Companies are going to continuously lose market share to the non bailout companies but then if the bailout companies are prohibited from reducing their workforce even as their sales are falling and they're losing market share. That's just going to accelerate their bankruptcy and then another bail out and then the government takes a big chunk of the ownership until eventually the government owns the entire company. And it's basically like a socialist communist revolution except no one had the fire shot but probably the most ridiculous thing about yesterday's coverage is. I've never heard the word helicopter money more than I heard yesterday. Pretty much every guest that was coming on was saying we need helicopter money. It's time for helicopter money right. We need a helicopter money. We need everybody talking about helicopter money now. A lot of these people probably don't even know where the term helicopter money is. I mean they just think about. Oh Yeah we're dropping money from helicopters helicopter money so the term was originally coined by Milton. Friedman Chicago School monetarist and when he said helicopter money right dropping money from helicopters. He said it as a joke. He was using the analogy to illustrate a point. See he was trying to explain. Why printing money doesn't work. Quite Keynesian. Monetary stimulus is ineffective by just crazy money member. Money in and of itself doesn't have any value. I mean not paper money. Fiat currency what gives it. Value is the goods and services that the people who earn the money produced right so it's the goods and services that have value not the money right without stuff to buy. The money has no value. Once you introduce stuff right once you produce goods and services now you got something to buy and so the money is the way we allocate goods and services and the people who are adding the most value that people who are contributing the most services and the most goods are earning the most money right. So your money is a function of how much you put it right if you start a business and that business produces all sorts of goods that people can by then. You're you earn money. And so there are some relationship between what you put in in the way of goods and services and then your claim to those goods and services based on the money that you have but if you just create money and there's no extra goods or services then the only thing that happens is the price of those goods and services has to go up because now there's more money bidding for right. That's all there is so Milton. Friedman entire point was to say look you know. Monetary stimulus is no different than dropping money from helicopters. It's absurd it doesn't work. That's why he used the analogy to point out the absurdity of it because people would have thought. Oh yeah dropping money from helicopters. That's clearly dumb right. There's no point in doing that. I mean any idiot can see that if you just drop money from helicopters. It's just inflation right. That's why he used it to prove a point to illustrate the absurdity of Keynesian monetary stimulus. Right well now. The guys who are using the word today. They think that it's a real policy. They just think whoever made it up if they even know that it was Milton. Friedman was serious that Oh okay. It's time for helicopter money as if helicopter money actually works. It doesn't work. It's a but the jokes going to be on everybody who thinks it does work because we are going to have a currency crisis. We're GONNA have a dollar crisis. Yes right now. We have a liquidity crisis and people are rushing into dollars. They're not thinking this out. They're not connecting the dots to what's going to happen to the dollar. Eventually all they know is they need dollars now but in short order. I'm not sure how many weeks or months it's going to be but nobody is going to need dollars. The world is going to be drowning in a sea of dollars. And you're going to have a dollar crisis. I think the crisis is going to begin in foreign exchange markets as a foreigner lose confidence. You can't be the reserve currency and be monetize your debt to the extent that we're monetize debt so the dollar's going to start to fall and then it's going to snowball and then it's going to come here and consumer prices are really going to start to rise and by then. It's too late to do anything about it. So my advice is to protect yourself now. Take advantage of the people who are buying the dollar either. Because they don't not better they don't have a choice and get out of your dollars. Get more goal. Get more gold stocks and by these foreign stocks on the cheap. I think that we are getting some of the greatest buying opportunities in foreign markets not in the US market this rally in the US market. As I said I we might get one with all the bailouts and all the stimulus and all the hope this is this is a this is a bear trap is a sucker rally. That's going on in the US market. We have another leg down but in the final analysis doesn't matter because this is an ongoing bear market twenty one years in the making seventy percent as I said in terms of gold and we got a long way to go to the bottom.

government Federal Reserve US Donald Trump president Alice Treasuries Bill Ackman Dow Board Treasury Fed Boeing
Ep. 199 - Investing, Gender Pay Gap, and Financial Wellness For Women with Ellevest Founder Sallie Krawcheck

Almost 30 Podcast

1:30:16 hr | 2 years ago

Ep. 199 - Investing, Gender Pay Gap, and Financial Wellness For Women with Ellevest Founder Sallie Krawcheck

"So there's recent research says that parents still today when they talk to their sons about money, we'll talk about sort of in a building wealth in an expansive way in a and they talked their daughters about saving porting the money protecting the money, and as we tend to grow up, teen magazines, women magazines talk to us in an infanta, Leising and patronizing way. You're listening to the almost thirty podcasts a lifestyle podcast hosted by Christa Williams and Lindsay Simsek. Tune in for new episode every Tuesday to hear honest conversations about topics like wellness entrepreneurship, spirituality and self development. We've guests who are really smart, really inspirational and really fucking funny. It's real it's raw in its unfiltered, inspired by our transition from our twenties to our thirties. We realized it's so much more than that. Our mission is to provide you with the tools guidance and motivation to help you navigate any transitions in your life and fulfill your personal growth. Thanks so much for tuning into the almost thirty podcasts. Here we go. What's up almost thirty low back? It's us took a little Bouriky break from worke work. This is what we've been doing. We've been designating a sliver of time to go for a walk. Yep. Walks her life, walks her life. I've been encouraged by many a psychic to take more a walk through. Would they say who've you'll fat or no, they said move your flippers? Yeah. Oh my God. They're like put your flippers in the ocean. No, just like Colette was saying that she's like take meetings walking you need to be walking move, your lymph more guess 'cause LA's beautiful. But dude, no one knowing why it's heartbreaking Jude mind walk game in New York. Yeah. I would actually like to see a before. And after of like my my butt, or so, you know, what I mean alleged parts of your body were like walking really works. I was at my Jerry, very slimmest in New York. Also doing twenty cycles a day, literally. Was running fifteen. Yeah. It was like drugs. Fifteen quest bars a day, twenty soul cycle classes, I used to heat up those quest bars I was thinking about quest bars with. Yeah. Yesterd- day. I know I remember us talking about it. And it just was a huge part of my life. When I was living in New York before they changed the recipe, dude, I used to you, you don't even know. My bar game has been bars are Mike wasn't. And I used to have six today. What? Yeah. I know. That's not normal. I love recognized that completely all your your back is valid can you imagine weirded out. That's normal. Can you? Imagine the colon hydrotherapy tank. And it's just like a wad. Of course. I was like just it was just like so I was like wow, high protein or like, wow, nutritious. Yeah. Yeah. Let nutrition tastes like brownie totally is to heat it up both cinnamon bundle bars too sugary for me, cookies and cream was my. Justin, like cinnamon, roll Hughes. The first one introduced me to to quest bars a long time ago when he first came to visit me and Chicago first weekend that we had. So what was that like, well just it was after six months of knowing each other? So it's the craziest. He's like I never heard. I know these. Yeah, he was crazy actually don't we were out that night. So. Yeah, fireworks. Basically where you like you're like, I'm gonna let you do it. I know who literally time close the door got all horned up at the club. Yo nothing's better than getting horned up at the club read. It's like very performance of performance. But like, you're not you can't fuck in the club can't. So it's like, you do everything but the dirty stuff in the club. But you can kind of lake close to it. You can totally touch. The things totally was like. It was like which no longer exists. It was like three in the morning. I was like all right. It's been six months. Do you? I'm like a yes or no. Yeah. Honestly, I'm like what's going on here? Right now, also in my water. So I have a water here at the table. This is a chemistry lab. I've got a lot of. Yeah. I've got a lot of Teamsters happening. I want to share with you guys Sakari detox water or the one with chlorophyll trees minerals. So the core fill is great for your blood, and then the trace minerals, buying toxins and really helps get you hydrated and helps you glowing. I've been putting that my water, and I really really like it press juice rail. So has really good textures to the B complex is amazing. It helps with energy helps just like overall concentration and focus. They have a liver one, and that one has ginger Nedal green tea, dude, you be milk Thistle, so milk vessels, really good for your liver. So I also have that in my water. And then I've been putting shanty wellness hemp blend in there. So Sean T S H A N T I wellness, and it's their hemp blend just in there just to be chill. But that's a my water right now. I've been really obsessed with tinctures in my water. Yeah. Not to change the subject really criticism. You just have sex for the first time. I think. Thanks cheers. But that was purpose noted. This is put that that chlorophyll and trace minerals in my mouth without water. Don't do that just said that to he's out on like, ooh, it's concentrated put it on my own. I know I have to always dilute it, but they think kinks actually when talking about two thousand nine hundred wellness trends, which we weren't. But if we're talking about that now, I think that's going to be huge trend. I think so tale yet because it's more concentrated people are like, I think the pill thing is great and will always be there. But I also think there's something ritualistic about tinctures, and it's like your own little I don't know in the bioavailability of thing showed stake often times in texture form bite Timmons or minerals or more bioavailable than in a pill form and actually learned. You know, the other day was at this thing that a lot of pills are made of gelatin, which is gone vegan. And then there are a lot made a lot of different materials that actually aren't as easily digested as we think. So the most easily digested thing to put your pills in as tapioca. Oh, so. Bianca starched. So a lot of times or some pills are and some bills aren't, but I just thought that was an interesting thing to and now kind of look for that. It's not like a differentiator or a deciding factor in my pills. But it's something I look for because that digestive much more easily. Yes, I think there's like a vegetable something or something like that too. Yep. Though, did what's this book? Oh, I wanted to talk to you guys about this book. I'm reading almost thirty nation. Gather ram. I'm going to tell you a little story. So I'm reading the food therapist by Shira linked Chow scheme, and she's actually coming on the podcast idea. Mtor cool. She lives in L A, and I was drawn to it. Because it said the food therapists, and I've always wanted to get a food therapists because that's my goal in the next. Couple of months is to really have a deeper understanding of why I have eating patterns that. I do you know the reward system I have with food just patterning around eating and nutrition and nourishment of my body, so I can make more intentional food choices all the time. And I'm really liking this book. So the food therapist is really really good. And I thought you guys would also like it too. But there was one thing that I thought was very interesting. I wanted to bring up on the podcast because it's been something. I've been thinking about the relationship of the prefrontal cortex in our in relationship to food and making decisions around food. So the prefrontal cortex is what she says sheera says is the part of the brain is the command central for self awareness and willpower think of it as the control panel that helps you resist instantly gratifying behaviors in favor of bigger, payoffs for your future self. So this is the part of your brain, not, you know, if you look at a piece of cake would be like, hey, let's think about you know, how you're going to feel tomorrow or maybe your wedding, or whatever it is that you want in the long term rather than the short turn game of just enjoying it or, you know, just eating the cake. So the other parts of your brain would essentially be like, let's do this. It tastes good about the now. Yeah. Fucking. So. So the prefrontal cortex would be the sage it's Uber reasonable and diplomat of the bunch. So the prefrontal cortex, though, is what helps you make conscious food choices and resist the urge to overeat or jump at every big good that you see. And you're prefrontal cortex is also helpful in decision making in your everyday life. So when you wake up in the morning, and you are thinking what to wear what to make for breakfast, which route you wanna take to work what you want to order from Amazon to send that Email or not or you know to have that conversation with a partner to go out with your friends this weekend. So a lot of decision making that you do in your life is reliant on the prefrontal cortex. So it can get tired and it can get overused. So oftentimes when people come home after a long day of work when they've been making a lot of decisions in and out of meetings, all of the things they're prefrontal cortex can be so tired that it causes them to grab whatever's closest to them eating an entire box of cereal. Eating tons of crackers, eating six quest bars. You know, whatever, it is that, you know, you find yourself eating it is because you're not that's not the full reason. But a lot of times that is the reason. So for me, I've thought about that as it relates to my food choices, and I definitely see that at the end of the day when I'm exhausted, and you know, we've been making tons of decisions or doing what we're doing. And my inclination will be kind of just like so tired and wanting the quick fix or wanting the the treat and my prefrontal cortex will be exhausted. So it's not helping me to mediate against making that bad decision. So you'll reach for whatever I've thought about that too. And like what I've done to mediate that or help that has been using things like fissile my meal delivery, Sikora my meal delivery, actually used milk and eggs to they'll send my avocados. They'll send my nut milks by apples, whatever and using those meal delivery services or Amazon fresh or whatever you have can really help to, you know, alleviate against all the choices and all the options because right now, I can't imagine if I was to think about what to eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner. It's a really, you know, it's a lot. And I think a lot of times he will get overwhelmed with the choices or whatever. And for me, I like variety, especially being plant based. So having these options really helps me to save my prefrontal cortex energy for making decisions as it relates to the business. Yeah. Wow. That's so interesting. Isn't that fascinating? I never thought about exhausting that pre-cold prefrontal cortex, and I'm sure to. Is to lake every aspect of your life. Like where you know you're exhausted in making decisions. And then either it's like kind of maybe an irrational reaction to something. It's just like being less thoughtful out everything you do. Well, there's a book called the art of choosing. And then there's the choice paradox. I think and those are really really good books that talk about how we have so much options. It can be exile inducing and stressful for our brain because we see, you know, like, if you go to the grocery store, and you're looking at toothpaste, and you see eight hundred toothpastes, you know, you never feel like you've got the best toothpaste. So can always feel like everything's open ended. So can oftentimes be stressful. So figuring out ways in your life that you can mitigate against that. You know is really thoughtful. And we even think about that with Netflix. You know, every time you go to Netflix after I walked there's no more fire festival. Documentaries. What do I watch? So it was like they need to organize it in a different way, you know, right now because it's like new releases comedy, and I'm like. Okay. Okay. Like, but what if I'm like in the mood for you know, what I mean just being a little bit more. It's just fun to content content on everything. Yeah. But I thought that was interesting. So the book is the food therapist. There's a pink cover, and she's gonna come on the podcast, but I thought that bit. And while the prefrontal cortex was super fascinating, I've been really really thinking about that like preserving mine, so that I can't have it or helping it by meditating more or helping it by slowing down or helping it by even just sounds weird. But like encouraging it kind of feel about it in my brain. And like allowing it the opportunity to speak up or communicate. I've done that with like shifting my relationship with alcohol because I still drink. But it's like, it's more all always like, how do you want to feel tomorrow, you know, or if how do I wanna feel tomorrow, and then that means instead of three losses of wine? It's just one with the rest of the night water. It's like very. It's empowering there's definitely a little bit of resistance. You know, like for whatever reason it's like a different reason every time, but then once you settle into the decision like you just realize that whatever resistance came up as pretty surface or it's just it's rooted in like habit. You know, or or what other people are doing which has nothing to do with your tomorrow? Basically for sure have hard time thinking about the tomorrow in my body eating life. It's very weird usually in my tomorrow in every other aspect of my life. I'm twenty steps ahead in a good and bad way. So it's interesting that I could never be like like people are like, oh, like, you know, when you are engaged you're going to be like, oh, whatever I'm like. I don't know. I know what's going to like push movie edge. Be like, yes, it's time sixty days. I don't care. No. I mean, but you're not after the quick fix. It's really going on a deeper level and reprogramming game. I don't even know. Oh, we'll so much of lake the quote, unquote. It's like mental wait, you know, unlike releasing that like same thing, you know, you're talking about her facials and things like that. Where like once you start to release and properly allow energy to come in and out, Ben like acne goes away and weight goes away. And you know, whatever it is doesn't matter. Yeah. So interesting while he's love would a fricken good one though, I want I had a lot of people message me recently won a lot of people who I don't. I don't think it's because of me, but I just think it's the season. It happens every year where people are like in the season of breaking up. We're like kind of going back out into the dating world. Yeah. And it's like very daunting and overwhelming. Yeah. We've had some people in the community just talking about that. And how it's been pretty difficult to you know, almost like start over, and I feel that and just as kind of an update to the more conscious dating site. I think a lot of a lot of us can throw ourselves back into dating. And just do what we always done because that's what we know. And that's what we're confident doing. But I've been really trying to like get out of my comfort zone and not revert to like, okay doing like, just the drinks. And like, you know, drinks, no dinner, just like very surface stuff by doing other things like activities or workouts or daytime things whether it's coffee, or, you know, even if it's just a sliver of their time like on a lunch break is like is more fun to connect for me in the daylight, see them in that late not after a long day of work, literally after a long day of exhausting, the prefrontal cortex, and they're kind of, you know, not quite all there, and then drinking's involves so I've really kind of steered away from that. And don't get me wrong. I do like going on dates where we can have a class of wine and just like relaxing all of that. But especially for the beginnings of. At all. I'm really interested in like seeing people as themselves. Sound myself? I'm coffee meets bagel. Oh, yeah. I was on that. That's not me as a dating byu morning meets carbs true. True. I'm a day tash Jewish deli. Never meeting you pass seven. Yeah. It's actually really hard in. It's interesting though, because I think it's good to question that because then they also do to an England. A lot of men maybe aren't interested in that as well. But they feel like they kind of have to balance paradigm of doing, you know, we meet for drinks. And then we go to dinner, you know, just following that normal see dating path. So I think it's I think it's really good. And it gives them permission to do that to like, what are you actually interested in do you wanna go on a hike? Do you want to go to a cooking glass using the season opportunity to find like something fun? You both can do outside of that. Yeah. One of the best dates have ever been on was a cooking class. Yeah. I think that was a good one the other day just being like, it's fun. Like, you know, when they are kinda go that extra mile something like that. And then also just communicating when I'm feeling like I want to say something and not playing the game, which I've had to kind of coach myself through every day because I there's a part of me that doesn't want to get hurt or. Just look like a fool the conversation is usually like what is the worst thing that could happen if I just say to them that I wanna see them. You know, what I mean like, and how would I feel if someone said that to me like even if I like them or not like I would be like, oh, wow. Cool. Like, I like that. I liked that honesty and just like that forward nece that it says confidence and. Yeah. And just making sure that everything I'm doing is coming from a place of just like authenticity myself like so I'm not doing things because I'm like this is going to make him like me and going to make them trust me. And it's going to make him think that I'm going to be a great mother to his children. I mean me for my entire life. But really not doing that. They see that one knows like fucking v o. Like you like baked them a ham. He's like all right. I would like bacon shit. I used to big my boyfriend cookies and his roommates every week how puke puke Ville, yo that's why I married someone else. Back. Then you're the best go fast. You nearly like next time cleaning your dorm room this. But you live for that. I did too. I lived for that. Yeah. It was very weird whatever not like approval, totally. But yeah, it also like I try to put myself in their position sometimes which sometimes is good. Sometimes it's bad. But just seeing that as like a little what are you doing take care of yourself? Tell me you know, what I mean at also and a lot of situations. Maybe they didn't see their parents. You know? Oh, yeah. All I've been also thinking that's like the the last layer to it all where I'm really one going, deep sooner. Meaning if I'm interested I want to have deeper conversations sooner it doesn't mean we have to talk about kids. It's like. What was your life like growing up? Like, what are your parents? Like, would you love? What blades you up, you know, just knowing that. So I can really understand, you know, especially how he was programmed growing up like does he have a mom dad like all that stuff laughing enjoying it? Now. No. Almost laughing 'cause like girls are amazing. Joining mean like like it also protects me hundred from like assuming that he's whatever lately. Hell it's just like the best questions. Like, I'm doing that Shittu. It's just so funny like how we find ways to be more compassionate, and to be more understanding, and every in every sense, you know, to give them the opportunity more by knowing them on a deeper level. And every time I think I've dated someone in my friends have dated someone it is such a growing opportunity for men, yo like when you are conscious in your asking those questions, and you are like really going deep and like saying things to them. They've never heard before making them think about things in relationships in their life. They've never heard before it is powerful. Oh, yeah. Because they come back with similar deep questions. And they're like, oh, this is okay to do. Okay. Okay. You know? Audits them like, you know, they're boy, you them and their boys are online, you know, and sixty four and being like, hey, what do you think about your mom and dad's relationship? You know what I mean? Like totally that's beautiful this beautiful, man. Perfect perfect segments during I'm sorry. Sally, Krajicek political. Political SRA smartest. She's like my girl. She's awesome. She's I was some. So I don't I actually didn't know what I was expecting to be completely honest. But Sally came over to the stewed eight thirty a m truly on the dam. Don time lake is looking like a million bucks. And like so sweet so down to hang and laugh and just like tell it how it is. And I just really appreciated herder her energy. I mean, she checks all the boxes. She's honest. She's funny. Like, yeah. We were laughing how and restore is our Krish crazy in what honest funny. She's changing the game with what she's doing. She's really thoughtful. And she's taken all of her learnings and applied it to something that has been official for all she's the CEO and co founder of Ella vest, the digital financial advisor for women has launched a few years ago. It's incredible. And so. Oh, helpful as we learned navigators. At least I'm learning to navigate the prior to that choose the president of the global wealth and investment management division at Bank of America. Which is major just like, you know, playing with the boys and like her whole career truly so many stories. I can't wait for you guys to hear one of my favorite episodes, truly. Yeah. Truly reynolds. Yeah. And I know that you guys have been asking for us to do more financial wellness episodes, you know, episodes about financial literacy, and, you know, getting financially well in two thousand nineteen so glad to serve this to you. And you know, provide you with Elvis as a potential partner and someone you can invest your money in I actually going to. That's actually my to do list this weekend, moving all my finances over just and I'm going to start to dip got like fourteen beanie babies. I'm gonna see if Kelly. Honestly, dad. This Princess, Diana. Bear is going to be worth. All right. Well, if you love this episode and it resonates with you and you'd like to share with your friends anyone who could use it. Please pasta long. That means so much to us and has helped us grow. And it just means world. So thank you. Thank you. Yes. Austin event, March twenty-six diversity inclusion and social consciousness with Rachel Roseanne. It's going to be amazing move at the refinery tickets available almost thirty podcast dot com. And then if you are interested in starting a podcast, you can buy all the resources you need to start a podcast on your podcast pro dot com. That's why oh, you are podcast pro dot com. Almost thirty podcasts on Instagram almost thirty podcast on Facebook. And we love you love you. We are so happy to have you in the house today. The amazing Sally Krajicek. She is changing the game for so many for so many women. She is doing the work. We all need to do. And you're such a cool. Interesting human, and we are so thankful to have you to talk to almost thirty nation. Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. You crushed it on Trevor Noah last night. Trevor Noah you disguise. So I just so huge. I smart nine present as he seems to be and hands. What I'm sorry. On the lips. Although I I was unconscious the whole time. I really don't remember a thing until I got off state all I remember is before I went on standing back there and saying just don't blow it and dopey nervous. So I kept breathing in Sumer, namely. Yeah. And then it was over and I was walking down the hall. Yeah. What did you do to prep like what he prepped for stuff like that? I sat around I didn't go in the office during the day, and I sat in my apartment and was nervous all day. That's high. Literally four like, I never know with with type of of new of media outlets topic, and I had met Trevor before and we talked about diversity bit and shared a few statistics. So we had the beginning of topic. But they didn't feed me the questions was the diversity topic. Something that was your idea was that his it was it was his when we because we talked about it initially say, hey, you gotta come on the show the Mike, oh, it chess onion, I if I can find the job. I know okay. Dig into the topic of diversity, you know, it's something that we're kind of exploring more. So on the show is, you know, becoming more financially. Well, but also, the topic of diversity and socio economic disparity between marginalized groups is really important to side loved here all interconnected, right? Every single one of them. I mean, the the fact that we women are not making as much progress in business. We women are not getting as much money to fund. Our businesses leaves us with less power than the men, you know, which leads us to the metoo time's up moment, which leads us to the backlash it part of which is Elvis te. So how can we help solve this problem of women having less money in different ways rather than just asking for the raise one more time? You know, the dozen come trying to take the seat of the table. One more time, you know, the the may work for you. But doesn't work for other women, but you know, with with Elvis investing is a choice that we can make. The getting ourselves into financial control wherever we are. In terms of our compensation is a choice that we can make which can make us more powerful. And on Trevor Noah, you mentioned are he mentioned like, oh, it's the right time to have this conversation. It seems like things are going the right direction. Can you give us a realistic? Snapshot of actually why is we could be no, you know, what's happening is. We're talking about it a lot. And the media is talking about it a lot in there a lot of books about it. So it's field. And you know, we pointed out, oh, look at this female as a CEO and look at this fortune most powerful women's conference and we've done this profile. And so it feels like there's movement and there's energy around it. When in fact, the number of female CEOs in the fortune five hundred has declined by twenty five percent over the past year. Right. It's a single digit number when in fact, the gender. The pay gap is decades away from closing for white women a hundred plus years for black women in two hundred plus years for Latino women, and it's barely budging. So we, you know, this progress is just you know, sort of hand waving and impressions as opposed to actual real progress, and Frank I think we've been going around going about it the whole the wrong wet to state the ponding lobbies. What do you think? The right way would be in the right way. We have to come together. I think though, the wrong way is the is the mass media Ugo girl, you got this. Here's how to ask for the raise, you know, strap on your confidence and walk on in there and don't take no for an answer. And that's it's a wonderful sense of I personally own this. I've got this. And if I fail it's my fault. And then I'll go back, and I'll pick up the book, and I'm going to read the book again because I read something wrong. Right. So it's massively. It has a sense of massive empowerment, but it doesn't work. I mean it works for this woman this woman, but overall it hasn't worked what works for one of two things either the CEO decides to do it, and he essentially overrules his vast middle management, which tends to fight diversity not because they're bad people. But because gosh, we all liked to work with people like ourselves, right? Or in your generation is doing this. We women come together and say, you know, what senior management team, what is the gender pay gap. And you know, what senior management team? Here's our women's diversity group. And this, you know, three week family leave policy with no pay ain't working for us. And you know, what management team you just paid off a sexual harasser tens of millions of dollars. We're we're walking out. So the strength is in the numbers not in individual empowerment. And what do you say to men that you know, because this is oftentimes like the retort in these kind of conversations, and I I've been looking for someone that's educated and eloquent on the topic. So, you know, if we give women the opportunity, or if we have a pool of applicants, and we are more likely to choose the women now because it will help us diversify the group. There are men that say that this is discrimination against the men if they are equally qualified, what's your what's your response to that. Oh, come on. I now come on the poor white men. I know it's hard when you've had it. So great for so long. You know, what does I say when you you've had privilege equality feels like diminishment, right? But what action what the research tells us is not that the women or the people of color are less qualified than the white men when they get the job. They're more qualified. The research tells us that white men or promoted based on potential think about it. It's it's white men. Looking at Whiteman saying, I can really imagine how he's going to do this job that young fellow reminds me so much myself. So I'm going to promote them whereas women and people color are promoted based on their accomplishments to the bar is higher. So that old, you know, your aunt would come home from work and say, I feel like I have to work twice as hard to get you know, to the same level the research says, she's right? And I'm not even now going to talk about once she gets home. She has to do all the housework and childcare. Yeah. The bar is so much higher for hire. Martin is Irbil. And I can't imagine how that feels on in an in a one on one interview when that person in the room the woman, or the marginalized person is knows that they're white male co worker did not get the same questions or had that bar at that same level. It must just feel like that would put me in such a deep dark. I don't know that she knows Brian. Why don't know what you know, what what we do because we been socialized again that this. We have to be perfect we own this. And so the reaction is not this isn't fair. And you know, I'm going to go out March. The reaction historically has been I'm have to try harder. A better try harder. It's me in. I better put in the project sooner. I better what? And then eventually, she'll drop out of the workforce. Eventually when John gets promoted and Steve gets promoted and Stewart gets promoted, Chad, you know, by the Chad I'd hall and Todd. Title. I promote like what not getting promoted us friends. I actually would love to do something. Norman's great. We've known Norman for twenty fuck up. Got a DUI. He's a good guy. He's a good guy. Yeah. So like, he's a fellow pass. Here's oh, don't even get me started. But here, you know, I actually want to do is study of what is the amount of economic productivity that is lost in this country by women and people of color working for nice guys who are biased against them. But don't even really know it. Oh, don't even well fall on my fucking jail. That's what I'm sitting here too. It's like I as a white woman it like fucking breaks, my heart to think about someone of color like or like a diverse group. That's not white working their asses off in not understanding that there's a bias against them. That's like actually keeping them down. And that it's just them and they're not working hard enough or they're not smart enough. That is like it breaks, my heart and doing it alone. And you know, when I was y'alls age. Oh, you're oh. I know. I'm actually I'm a few cry interviews where I've been crying. And it just hits me like I. Just I really, you know, and I'm not looking for anything from the audience here. But it really breaks out breaks, my heart. I agree with you. I completely agree with you. And you know, as a younger white woman entering the workforce. At least I could look around for a period of time and see me. Yep. Now when I got into my thirties and forties. I, you know, the the white women had left, but every step of the way marginalized individuals are alone. And you know, it's tough to have shared experience with people who aren't having this the same going to the same things that you are. I'd love to know about your experience. Like, you said you saw yourself when you first went into the workforce in. Yeah. I just I kinda wanna get get get a here's what had to fly on the wall. Like, what was it? Well, it was terrible. So first of all there were other white women around me when I started in on Wall Street in the late nineteen eighties. But it was still very tough. It was a free for all. All of let's get the girls out of here. And so I would come in and there'd be Xerox copies of male genitalia on my desk, which the hell it was I tell you. It's sort of hard to figure out what it is. When it's Xerox copy because it's squished, dude, you're kill right. It was squished. And I'm like, what is this? Somebody said to me a couple of months go to ever figure out who's it wasn't like no not. What are we going to what a lineup horrible? And then one day, I was leaning over char. There wasn't like what was an HR. It was the what was an HR remember leaning over a desk. One day helping a colleague with a spreadsheet, and a, you know in hearing this Rory's laughter all around me what is going on. And there's guy behind me pretending have sex with me. Right. So that was the environment. And I was not from an upper class family. My parents went way into debt to send myself, and my three siblings, two college and high school. School and all that stuff. So I couldn't afford to lose my job because I had a one year lease in New York City that if I got fired a quit. I didn't have a way to pay. My parents didn't away to pay. So I keep going back in there. So I put my head down. I got to better jobs. I became a research analyst at Sanford Bernstein, which was a much better environment. But it was really interesting Gloria Steinem talks about this for white women that you know, in my twenties. I definitely was like, you know, there's so many women around me, this feminism thing is sort of my mom's thing, and it's sort of ugly here, but we're going to we're on our way, we're on our way. And then you in my thirties, you sort of go into this fugu stakes just got a couple of kids, and you get married and get to forced and one of the kids as a learning issue and the cat sick and get married again. And never, and then you're in your forties and the kids are teenagers and you run around, and and you look up when you get into late forties. And you say where the hell are all the other women. March march. So Gloria has said that white women are the only group that become more radical as age because they go into the workforce thinking things are going to be fair. And they come out the other side and realize how little progress has been made. And so you see women like me who are hitting the stage and saying I just don't want it to be like this for y'all. And so I'm now playing for your generation and what I can individually do and what we is group can do to make things better for you. So what does it that made you be so brazen like how have you become someone who could, you know, survive the sexual harassment in the workplace and kind of turn around and like make it something that's positive that's gonna make change for others. You know, was it in your family to be a questioner or where? Whereas a great question. I love to joke. I went to an all girls middle school in Charleston, South Carolina and was bullied like there. Was no lens tomorrow. I mean, believe me right out of the school. And so it was Wall Street. I'm like bring it. You can't you can't do anything to me that salad. Conner. Didn't do in seventh grade bring it or is. Yeah. But it was also the you're not going to run me out of here. And it was also sort of an underpinning of the recognition of despite what was going on with the harassment of my privilege that you know, I had some rough days. So you've been to kind to mention it. But I I didn't fired on the front page of the Wall Street Journal twice are memorable days. Whoa. For the right reasons. I fought the good fight for the client and got fired for the right reason. But when you're on the front page fire their two ways, you can react one is oh. This is a barrister. Honey, can you go buy up every copy of the Wall Street Journal for other the other plight, frankly is score front page? Right. I'm doing something. It's on the front page of the journal. And then it's a recognition that. That's if that's my worst day, it's better than most of the world's best day. Right. So put me back in coach right because there's food on the table. The kids are healthy were not losing the apartment put me back in coach, particularly because at this stage. I was able to recognize I could take everything I had learned in gone through and suffered and turn it into a better world. A better company serving women that help your generation live better lives. So put me back in coach right now, how did men react to that? Like, I can imagine that. I mean that's again brazen and like would be intimidating intimidating to them. And the larger question is as a feminist. You know, as a woman like I remember when I was younger like to be a feminist in where I'm from in a conservative town on the east coast. It's like other too much. It's just too much too much. It's too much for too loud. Do you know, Bob? You don't play like. It's fun. Not a tiny. Even my mother, my mother, whom I adore, you know, Hillary Clinton's to us too ambitious. Mom, mom. Have you met your daughter, sweetie? You do it in tractive way. And she's a generation tell you when I decided to found Elvis, so I, you know, you know, one morning putting on my mascara had one of these moments of fully. We women don't have as much money as the guys. Do. It is putting us at a real disadvantage. We can bang away on the pay gap. And so many people are not making much progress yet, but begging went up, but wait a minute. There's actually another gap that cost your listeners, hundreds of thousands, some of the millions of dollars over the course of their lives. It's called the investing gap. Women don't invest as much as men do. Right. They leave more of their money in cash the investing industry. I Wall Street has blamed women fourth for forever. You're too risk averse, you need more financial education in. None of which is true. In fact, what it is is the industry. It financial advisers are eighty six percent male. It's about beating and winning and alpha and CNBC is ESPN and the industry symbol is the bull. So it's a big old phallic symbol right there. On Wall Street big ole he right there on Wall Street. And so I I look at this as a way to second. What if we start a company that actually goes does deep research into what will motivate women to invest, and so your point what was the reaction from some men? It was amazing. In fact, our first funders, the first, you know, money we outside money we raised to build the company came from Jomon sweater at morning star who got it immediately. A by new Muhammed El in is one of the great investors of our time on Ajay Banga who runs a CEO of MasterCard his closed that gender pay gap. A real ally later on Salesforce ventures, Mark, Ben in love, mar marks the last like the Dalai Lama one time. I don't get an I don't want to get distracted. These mean, you're he's the best. The these guys are the best. So there was some group who are like we get it and more who are coming in in our next raise. We get it many. That's oh. In end today. I still get a walk into a venture capitalist office. And they will try to convince me that while we have built is not a superior product for women not an innovative high tech sophisticated but simple to use product for women. It's a marketing play, and that's sort of the way of padding the head right marking now, by the way, I didn't work is pretty good. And, you know, our brand is now, you know, third of women in this country are familiar with the brand. So we've done some pretty good things in marketing, but they sort of dismiss it with it. It's arts and crafts marketing. Wow. Because there are a lot of companies now that are kind of taking advantage of the that and kind, you know, playing to the feminist movement or like, the female empowerment movement and marketing to it. But I've never thought of that Elvis does something like that. And I've never thought that a man would recognize that and kind of say that it's kind of like him looking in the mirror. It is business season here at almost thirty. And when is it not business season? But we are productive has helped. I'm super proud of us. Our team is incredible. And we've been able to maintain this productivity because of the products that we use in our everyday and one of those that we love so much and trust so much is forcing Matic, and they have products for anything that you might need to do. Whether it's being productive working out going to sleep relaxing, you know, handling your immune system, but be this adopted genyk mushroom brand doesn't right. And when it comes to productivity, we love the lion's mane elixir. It's just such a beautiful smooth blend of lion's mane and other adopted Jin's, and it's gets you focused without be caffeine high in the jitters, I also love the mushroom mocha mix. 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Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I could see you know, when you get to be senior you actually report it. So you could see was right there in the proxy on the dusk with the dick pic. Earlier. To be honest. I just want to be completely fair when I was senior there were no dick pic. Have to unlock and sneak into my day. She could fire me. Hurley. So did you were you able to talk to the board? Like, what's the what's the arena? None. No, it got worse. So so first of all I mentioned that I was fired. And the first time I was fired. I we're running Smith Barney. Yep. And the city private Bank and working at city, and it was the financial crisis about seven oh eight and we had sold products at financial visors. It's hold price declines which were supposed to be low risk. But as it turned out there been a mistake well-meaning mistake, and what's this product? That was supposed to lose like eight cents on the dollar lost one hundred like everything. So I went to the new boss who would never look me in the eye Sar began to suspect. Maybe we weren't the BFF's and said we should partially reimburse clients it went back and forth. He said, no, I said, yes, he said, no it eventually went to the board where we got to debate it at the board for your listeners. Pro tip your ever Hake on your boss at the board. You will lose your up on you may win the battle. But you will lose your job. So we actu-. Reimbursed the clients, and then they they let me go. And they've been letting guys go because it was the crisis sort of all along the way in the fella who was my peer who they let go the month before me. They wrote him a check for. I'm I wanna be accurate. I can't quite remember was either forty two million dollars or forty three million dollars or forty four million dollars. You get the point. And anyone wanna guess the check they offered to write me? One million as euro zero million. She's got now is. And they were able to do this. Because there were it was at will employment. There were no contracts. They could just take it take it or leave it. Wow. That's the thing. That's an I this is my problem with you know, and I know that I'm just screwing myself in the situation, but I want to speak honestly is looking at the financial system and financial institutions. It's so disheartening to hear something like that. Because I'm like all yeller just scratching each other's backs. Yeah. A lot of nam a lot of this is like really on dishonest practices and a lot of it is only benefiting the very high up. So it's hard for me to figure out like to invest in it and to be like, you know, put money in and investments and be a part of it. And I guess that's why L vested element. Because look when you you have so much money being managed, and you're earning fees off at a lot of money can slosh around your one of these big companies. There's just a lot of money and these individuals make a lot of money at Elvis because we are tech neighbor, we're taking so many of the people out. So we're using technology to put together. Much more highly customized investment portfolios than a human brain can do at a much lower cost. So he's numbers may not seem big. But typically if you were to go to one of the big firms have your money manage they would take a fee of the stated fee would be maybe one percent of your assets. But with underlying investments, maybe two two and a half percent at elevation star charge. Fair digital offering is a quarter of a percentage point. Right. And again that might not seem like that much of a difference. But it, you know, there's a power of compounding year after year after year of having that money, go back into your investments in earn money on money in our money on money and earn money on money makes a huge difference over the course of your life said that's why it with Elvis who wanted to be first of all highly highly gender where take the bias out of the investing algorithms because the ones run by the guys, unfortunately kill you at an average age. What why does that matter? Sally. For your retirement savings. If you if you're live longer, you're screwed well who lives longer women. Right. And if if the algorithm projects, you earn more than you're going to you're screwed will who earns less. Women. So who screwed women? Right. So we've built a we've taken the bias out of the investing algorithm can do a much more highly customized for fully at a much lower cost. Right. So this is investing in Wall Street, you know, two and three point how so what what aspects of the algorithm are working in favor of females all of it. You know? So there's as mentioned, the the we we we know you're female or male gender aware. So we kill you at the right time. We have you earn based on what industry you're in what part of the country, you're in what level of education have. So there's a lot that goes in there to try to get a really accurate picture of who you are. And what your earnings power is. And then really important the a big difference for us. We found that we women aren't particularly motivated by I want to invest to have more money. I mean, it sounds great. But what really is fantastic is. I want to invest in order to buy that be. Each house in five years. I want to invest in order to have a baby I want to invest in order to start my business. And so what the algorithm does. It's really great. Is it takes in your information, it calculates what you can do in tells you you need to deposit one hundred dollars a week you need to put in ten thousand whatever it is. And we will get you to this goal are targets kitchens goal in the vast majority. Markets a markets and down we perform super well during the market volatility of October, November December and sort of the twist, and it subtle is in order to have the highest returns. What do you do take on more risk? That means your portfolio bounces around in order to reach your goal. What we do is. We give you the least risk you need to reach it. Right. So we don't want to give you more risk than you have to do. We want to get you to what you want to achieve and hopefully give you a less bumpy road along the way. Well, what is I guess you're for your personal life? You know, not teach personal. But like for you know. Open book. Okay. Yeah. Like your husband. Yeah. Like when you are in these positions where you're having to be own the room being your masculine you kind of have to do, you know, running the show. What is it like when you get home? Like, what is what is that relationship? So first of all, you know, this is the second husband, right? The first husband would have. Pretty quickly there in the twenties. It wasn't. He was hilarious about it. We married right out of school. So we're from the south. So like, basically took off my graduation cap and put on the, you know, the bridal pretty. Pretty much, and we were we're pretty happy forbidden so crazy, then I went to business school. And it was even it wasn't that. I got more successful than him. It was the fact that I may be could be it'd like anyway, so he had an affair with a friend of mine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, had find out he left my Spanish time at the other day left my sister's wedding early. When I went back. Oh, it he said it was work went on went back. Our guest route. You don't believe this talk about we're going deep. Now, the guest room curtain was pulled back the wrong way. And there was a hair on the bed that wasn't mine. And so I'm thinking, it's the cat sitter and kept forgetting to ask him if he was cheating. And so then I remembered and then he kept saying, no. But I was like why isn't he Matt what he doesn't seem like energized enough about it? And so I asked him a third time. And he's like, oh, you're going to be mad, and I'm like who I met Matt say anyway, we got to it's all right? I won because later Quam. Well, I'll tell you why. Because later when I was running fifth Barney at city he worked at one of the parts of city that was much more junior s. The Senate actually, actually he's left. His it couldn't stand it. And then he went to another company, and my friend fired him. I didn't ask her to it was. So what the girl? Oh, I think they're married. Do you have you always trusted your instinct in that way? Because we've always know. And they always have an instinct didn't okay, I didn't really forbid it was just that one night. Anyway, whatever I burnt the clothes. Okay. But the second my husband he's such a good egg. And we just don't compete maybe part of it is he's a bit older than I am. And so we were different stages of our career. But the whole thing was just ghost go. Go go go go, go run faster, go faster right heaving went part time for a period when I was working super hard and traveling around the world. And then the cutest thing when we would go when I was at city in senior leadership. We sandy Weill would take the spouses, and so I would go to the business vino it all go off to California for XYZ of, you know, England or something, and I would go to business meetings, and Gary would go to the museums with the female spouses and come back the origami. It was like a hacking. I got me and the girls got massages facial skin would be glowing. Must be nice. Really? Are you able to like just a follow up with Christmas? Ed like, are you able to kind of slip into your feminine like when you come home because we feel very masculine most of the time. It's always the dance. Oh, yeah. For sure. I- facials, massages. Yes. Joe ga peleton. Home. So popular do it in the basement of the apartment Bill. That's awesome. As your favorite instructor that really handsome guy with the muscles dome. Says. Yeah. I motivated by Dennis. What? Although I have to tell you a weeks ago. I was I was I was riding and one of the female instructors recourse away through right? And you know, they've over work. I should not be doing that exercise. And I'm just die like pouring with sweat thing. Him at a vomit. And she looked straight in the Cameron. She said icy you I appreciate you know, what it was this really moving Mon. Wow. That's a Mason of it. Yeah. Part of the appeal. What you say, I guess, you know, thinking about men that are listening. Like, how can they support this movement? How could they educate themselves on on this movement? Or like, what are some things that they need to know as these shifts in transitions happen, speak up. You know, I have any number of my male friends who are go. And then they've Ford and article, look, you know, Megan Markle is a feminist like, that's amazing. Maybe you could share it to your million Twitter followers to right? So be here with us, you know, and support this. You know, the second thing I'd say is speak up at work as well. Become aware of these microaggressions people talking over women people taking credit for women's ideas. People not promoting women. I've even had this conversation with some of my closest friends, including my brother of what are you saying when you're in a meeting with all the guys in one. Tim says she's got great legs. What what do you do in the answer for most of these gentlemen, historically, is, you know, I don't I don't join end. But I don't say do that's a jerk thing to say, right? And so begin to use some of your political capital to help us move forward and reason you wanna do it. It's the right thing to do. The reason you want to do it is it makes businesses better to have more diversity in leadership and throughout the company. And the reason you want to do is because you don't want anybody talking about your daughter's legs when she gets there. Righteous put her little cute door will face over that other woman think about do you want this for your daughter, and the answer is absolutely not what do you say to two men in in this world that say, oh, you know, I want hire woman. But I can't find a qualified woman. Like, I've heard that from leg my gosh. Because I'm always, I'm always curious. I'm like who's in your office? I'm just curious. You know, it's so out of my. Person brought up with bias. What the right word. Old to start somewhere. Like, you know, side a couple of things, you know, it's either bias where you can't see the qualification get remember we talked about you see the the guys in you see their potential, but you're not able to project that potential upon a woman or personal coat colors begin to question your assumptions in maybe look at their qualification side by side and you'll start to see wait a minute. What you know? I thought it was lack of qualifications maybe just lack of bragging about them, or you know, putting them in my face all the time or stretching that whatever. Right. So I think that's the one thing in the second thing is got a question who your network is. You know, if you're leaving work, and you're hanging out with all guys. And of course, you don't know any qualified women. So you need to look at your network and make a real effort to have a diverse network in bring other people in with other skill sets. Go to conferences and don't sit with the guys, right? Go over which reduce yourself to other people, but it has to be a conscious effort to broaden out who you're with. Please do not do not do not tell me that I need to feel bad for guys who are nervous about the metoo movement. And all these articles that are now coming out that say, I don't know I can be alone with the woman because what you know, what if I'm accused of something that is the biggest pilot crud out there. Yeah. Like what I'm trying to think about that? Because there is you know, men that are like, well, you know, I'm scared to be alone with a woman. I'm scared to you know, do like promote a woman. What is that? God is. Oh, thank God. I have an excuse. Oh, oh, what a relief. I flip. Yeah. Thank God women again, God, I haven't excuse not to have to get out of my comfort zone because here it is. I'd love to but y'all might accuse me of sexual harassment. We've cared for. Hello. And now you're saying you're scared, dude. So of nothing. Right. Yeah. What you're frayed that your your dick is gonna find its way into me. Yeah. It's like, okay. They say don't do anything. You wouldn't do with the rock, right? I don't know. Plus the quote, it's appropriate to whip it out. The rock was here. Not all right now within. I was in senior positions that I never thought, you know, what I'm gonna drop trowel. Right. This minute. This doesn't. Them to do vagina right now. Actually. There's actually a funnier Gye in it has heavy seen Handmaid's tale. It's Handmaid's still. So the men are in. The women like smacking the men's Astor like get back in. Aggressive to the men in the middle. It is the most amazing thing the roles reversed. It's like just like that. This is an interesting question that I don't know if we'll be able to answer. But so a lot of the benefits of hiring someone that's diverse woman of color or woman, or you know, someone that's just not a white person. White man have their benefits include things that are not as tangible or quantifiable would that? Would you say that's true in their way that we are in the future able to quantify those benefits. I think they've been quantified. So, you know, well, this person brings this characteristic that characters that yeah, there's some research about it. I think the more important researches what the outcome is it. When you have diverse leadership teams companies have higher returns on equity lower risk Reiter, innovation greater Klein engagement, greater employee engagement the power. Power of diversity is so great that these diverse teams outperform higher I q teams. That's what the research tells us. And then you you try to go in and actually in my book own it. I talk a little bit about what do we think? It is that in this case women bring that's different. Well, we, you know, the research tells us more of a relationship orientation, we tend to bring more holistic thinking, we tend to be more risk aware these aren't rules, but there's sort of rules of thumb, and so the power is if the guys are risk taking the women are more little risk aware that balances each other out right of the guys are, you know, let me make a decision as gentlemen tend to on fewer data points. Women bring in more data points sort of evens it out the research is there, and it's there for big companies. And it's there for startups. You may have seen the research by first round capital that says that women run startups have sixty three percent better returns than male run startups. Now, you wanna guess the percent of venture capital dollars women yet one percent, it's three. So you were you know, but it's sometimes it's four sometimes it's too. So the research is there, but the research itself simply hasn't been compelling enough to change things. And I think in part it's because maybe the CEO's get it. And they have a pronouncement we will increase diversity and then middle management's like, yeah. I think I saw a piece of research ones. I think the town hall the CEO said to increase diversity, and I'm gonna hire Bob. Yeah. Right. What do I want? You know, I want comfort I want. You know, a workplace that is not way to challenging. I wanna make my numbers, but without having to break a sweat and ops. My guy. A few months into the new year. And I know that the dust has settled for most of you, and it's becoming clearer and clearer what you'd like to work on for this year what you'd like to bring into your life. What you'd like to let go of and one of my favorite tools because it works is the to be magnetic workshops from Lacey Phillips, you can go to be magnetic dot com. Explore the website there are Alicarte options as well as various programs and workshops, I love the start here tab because from there you can really narrow down what you would like to manifest, according to the most popular topics like money career home. Love community self worth. This is a beautiful practice. I have done be love. So the partnership workshop and within for example. Within this programme this partnership program you start with unblocked partnership, and then you work through unblocked repair. And after that, you work through unblocked shadow end with authenticity roadmap, and you can do this at your own pace. You know, you can do it one right after the other where you can take time in really let it integrate into your life. I have seen so much success. I have manifested people into my life that have really changed the way I see love and I receive love and it's been such a gift. So no matter what you are trying to men of as Lucy has the tools for you. She is also the host of the expanded podcast check that out to be magnetic dot com, and you can use our code almost thirty for ten percent off any workshop, so that's to be magnetic dot com. And the code is almost thirty for ten percent off any workshop. Could upper level management. You know with a focus on more emotional intelligence. I'm just like thinking about emotional intelligence within the financial world and would work. No. I look I'm at the point nothing works. Right. I I'm here. The next city committee doesn't work the mentoring programs. Don't work the sponsorship programs, don't work ghetto. I don't why they haven't worked. And so we're not waiting for the pipeline doesn't work that you know, the pipeline has been full at the junior level since the eighties. Okay. What does the pipeline? Well, it's the you gotta hire half, half, female and half male and on and with our new diversity in our, you know, sensitivity training and our unconscious bias training all the work through. But nothing's working. What works is two things the CO just frigging decides to do it just decide Stewart, and like, you know, Mark Benny off for an J Bank MasterCard just closes the. Gender pay gaps and takes no excuses and fires people who are not, you know, falling in line makes it as big a business priority as you know, selling the new product, right and truly believes it truly. I not have had to do that at Alabama where I've overruled we we started right? We started diversities are thing where half female were forty percent people of color, and I've had to overrule my managers who then wanna hire that person like themselves, and I have to say your bias, you know, your subtle gender by showing I'm over will you because that's just what has to happen. So I think it's they decide to do it or two we get him from the bottom. Right. You know, we we come together and say leadership team, you know. No, no. This this family policies and good enough. Right. We gotta change. So it's either strength in numbers or strength of the individual. How educated yourself like what are some resources that? You. Books you've been reading or places that you get your information to you know, like when you talk about uncovering your cognitive bias us. What have you done to do that? Yeah. You know, it's been really a journey. It's been one piece of research on top of another. I think I started with catalyst research, which is where I I started to learn about the, you know, the the business case for diversity blew me away. I remember being at a conference being in a meeting with the woman who ran catalyst. And she started to talk about how you know. We just said diverse teams outperform smarter teams. I'm like, I think I stopped her like, whoa, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. We got to do that again talk to me. Right. And then on top of that Harvard Business Review, you know, you know, signing up on Twitter, whatever you use for your news to you know, to see what's coming out of the irony is coming out of Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs in the World Bank. All these financial institutions. The talk about the power of. Diversity, but then don't actually practice it as much themselves. Wow. Justice which gears a little bit. And you have a son and daughter cats. Oh, raising feminists cats. So what you know, like raising a son. Yeah. Yes. Specially like what is that lake in in this time, and what is important to you to instill in him in his is at conversations or is it just modeling and doing what you do. Well, it's bringing him in. You know, I've never forget the mistake. I made win a few years ago the documentary misrepresentation came out, which was about the portrayal of women in mass media and for the days before telling my daughter, it's coming out. We're watching it together. Get your homework done early because on Tuesday night, eight o'clock, we're watching it together. And she and I are right there on the sofa and Jonathan walks in the room, and I'm Mike I am such an effing idiot. Because I told her we were watching it, and I didn't tell him or my husband and happily who's like, hey, what's going on and brought the whole family and right? And so as a mother. Other in making sure you're having these conversations not just with your daughter. But with your sons as well as super important. Can't wait. And by the way, you know, the the flip side, I would say, you know, one thing I don't wanna leave without talking to our kids about money the same way. So there's recent research that says that parents still today when they talk to their sons about money, we'll talk about sort of in a building wealth in an expansive way in a while, you know, have money have plenty sort of way. And they talked their daughters about saving right, hoarding, the money protecting the money, and as we tend to grow up, teen magazines, women magazines talked to us in an infanta ising and patronizing way about money. I mean think about media think about, you know, Carrie Bradshaw and she bought many shoes. She can't afford an apartment. There's a whole generation who thinks they're Carrie Bradshaw. Right. That's what we all identified with a made. I, you know, I probably. Was miranda. I was more. Samantha. Nobody was. Moran. Harry brand some Charlotte. Think about that. Right. Like, how dumb can you be? Yeah. And so the articles are all about don't buy the law. Hey, you know, save the money. None of it. If on CNBC Dylan Rattigan, turn to Jim Cramer. Don't buy the lot. Hey, right, or what's your money type or you? Hear your Miranda. And we never talk about diversified investment portfolios in. So we grow up with a sense of money is not for us. We're sort of dumb about money. It belongs to the guys. Look, it's all the guys in the money industries vs venture capital and Wall Street and says we were talking about earlier there's no amount of money. You make that you would actually be willing to share with your friends, you are much more likely much more likely to talk to your friends about sex, then money, even though we started as a puritanical site in women prefer to talk about their own death than money. So we have iced this desire in women, which I sort of say if we if the guys we love, but still where to go back a hundred years ago and said. Let's put together plot to keep the women from being as powerful as they can be. What should we do? I have an idea. Let's make money a source of shame for them the great idea. And then when it's time for them to ask for raise because they never talk about it, though of no idea how much to ask for. We'll keep them from investing. We'll make them feel very it's gonna be great. It would you know? We'll make. We'll sort of equate feminism, you know, with anti money, right? We'll make money tacky and unattractive and undesirable do and I can imagine too. Like, yes. Like an it's lived in each generation. So like, my mom my mom's moms moms moms. So it's almost like this really heavy burden to be able to flip and do something different. And then I also was thinking about like if someone's parents have a insecurity around money, and they didn't learn themselves, and they kind of had to figure it out and still to this day. They're kind of like, yeah, I'm just I'm figuring it out still like for them to educate. Their children must be just such a a relief like daunting for them an unable to do it. So, you know, even for parents and recognizing their own. Name exact yet, which I don't know. I know you know, what I mean executive just sort of who you are right because money is about power and in relationships, it's about power who who has the money, and who doesn't have the money. The only thing my parents fought about was money. My father had at my stay at home. Mom, did not. And it was that was their power struggle. And we kids would hide under the bed and dad would storm out or mom would storm out. And so became a very ugly emotional thing for so many. Yeah, that's why I want money. So I can escape pull that you know, that I got to tell you that's part of why I went to Wall Street. I'm just like, you know, what I want some money. I don't wanna be in a position of having to ask for it of having less power. And so even in this trip and in the first marriage underscored it because he had the he was keeping track of the money. You know, even though I was an investment banker which is crazy but gender roles and after that lesson it was like, all right. I adore. My husband will live every last day of relies together. And we are keeping our investments separate and women. Really should. I mean, even if you know nothing's ever gonna happen in my marriage. But if we are living as we are six to eight years longer than men, we had better have our retirement straight because we may love those guys, and they may take care of hard to take care of person when you're dead right there called an individual retirement account for a reason. And so if you come to Alabama for nothing come to Ella best for that. Because they're too many, even you know, my my friends their husbands are some of them are dropping dead their fifties. Wow. Oh, it's that testosterone. Right. It's corrosive on the right and the toxic master. Distant to, you know, doing healthy things or like doing yoga it's for famous stretching for females, you know, it's almost like feminine to take care of yourself. Oh my God. That's exactly right. You know? I least at fuck y'all. I I know they've really hit my husband wherever massage like, the unwinding of stress would be heard across the world. Isn't it funny? How they resist massages like I can imagine like my dad or like men in my life to get a massage. They'd be like I on your touching. The joke is he'll come out looking like you chat. Chat. They went all the stress got actually, Hugh Jackman. His body amazing. Our girls. So if we have I guess this is like very civic, but whatever use my time. So if we have money in different accounts like fidelity vanguard, and then we want to move it to Elvis would we keep those in those and then moved to Ella vest, or how would we ship Mon over go about? Yeah. So we can you can send it to open account and funded with cash that can come out of your checking account, you can rollover an IRA or transfer an IRA or rollover, a 4._0._1._K from your old work or from your accounted fidelity consent. Over those securities, though, we try to make it easy for you to to get in and easy for you. Of course, when you need your money to to get out as well. And this is all done online or through the app or is there? That's right. Okay. We have a client service team got who is available and ready to help. They're so cool. They're so nice. They're such great people. But we keep it. I think pretty intuitive and pretty easy. It's pretty straightforward process. And then, you know, sophistication happens with the with the investing processes, we invest differently for you than for you than for you. So this a highly customized investment portfolio, which hopefully you sort of consent and forget because you know, will let you. You know, if you fall off track, you know, what you're off track. You're not getting that beach house and four years because you didn't put in the deposit or the market crashed or or than we expected. So it does give you a peace of mind because it's not just a lump of money going up and down. It say this is how it should perform in. This is how were working to get there. Wow. And is it just can you set it to kind of an automatic poll from your? I've got a recurring deposit. So a certain amount nets really for those of your. So a couple of things we have no minimum. We've no minimum love. And this was important to me. And I cannot help. We lose money on that the businesses money, but go for it. And this was important to make us the the so few actually step back. We can talk about all the ways Wall Street and investing is sexist 'cause there's so many men, but but one way it's sexist is with the account minimums, right because who are the folks who have the fifty thousand dollars or the two hundred or the five thousand dollars needed to invest it's the men, and so there's there's sexism Filton forget that we can invest as little as a penny. It's hard for me to give your diversified investment. Portfolio to penny with a dollar. I can do it and the emails I get from these young women in my Email address is out there all over the places. Sally, Alabama dot com. Oh, ak- three o'clock in the morning and all of an Email from someone first generation college first paycheck. I just invested my first ten dollars. I cried. Right. And so you know, what I would tell the young women and men out. There is just first of all pay off your credit card debt yet yourself. You know, build an emergency fund. You wanna have in your in cash one to build it up to three months of take on pain case, something bad happens. You want that nice and safe? And then from there you want invest one percent of every paycheck two percent. We build it up. Ten fifteen percent. And just have it automatically go into whether it's elevated or someplace else, so that you're taking care of future. You write your, you know, a way you can think about is every dollar you spend it as a dollar grandma doesn't have actually because of the power of compounding, its many dollars grandma doesn't have. And so make sure to take care of bad ass, grandma. You some part out of every paycheck. Wow. Wow. Okay. They would go to Elvis dot com. Sign it furniture count. And then there's options there. Yep. Bay someone another option, which is really cool is what we call gender lens investing impact investing. So what we hear from a lot of women is just as in their jobs. Hey, I've got this job. And it's interesting and the impact I'm having is right. The good I'm doing for the world in my job is so in their investments is my investment doing any good. Or is it funding gun manufacturers? Right. Right. And so I would say that every dollar you had in the Bank every dollar you invest every dollar spent has an impact is that the impact you wanted to have. And so at Elvis, we have the option as you go through the process of investing in women's businesses investing in the environment, investing in social causes. You check it. And you know, the returns, you know, historically, financial advisers is oh you have to give up returns for it. I. That that research is way out dated eighty four percent of women today want to at least learn about investing impact something like four percent of the financial advisors even talked about it and most melodic you have to give up return, which is wrong. Right. So we provide that option and for those who like invest in women businesses that feel sorta weird to me. I don't know up to think about it. I'm not sure I would say you're investing in agenda right now, you're just investing all in men. Right. And so this is a conscious way of using your dollars to sort of tilt the Plainfield and money is energy. And so Ty like put it in in that way. Like, I can imagine obviously no research is being done on this because it's a little woo. But it's like I can imagine that the return on that not only financially, but just karmic Louis is something that happens. So I love that aspect, and we have right that the guys have been had got this a long time ago. Brother's got this invest in each other promote each other talk each other up, right? We didn't get this. And so just beginning to move this needle little bit with these seven trillion dollars of investable assets. We women control is a means to changing, you know, changing the Plainfield. Oh in credible. Wow. This is been Sally. This has been amazing. I'm so excited for you guys to listen to this and for you guys check out invest, so where can people connect with you. Yep. So come on over to Alabama. He L L E V E S T dot com. Email me Sally SA L I E at Ella dot com. It comes. I promise you directly. She was really sweet because the other the other week. I wrote about mine Saamna, which I get this time of year, which we have. Now with you right now in New York is insomnia city, and I wrote about it. It was the rating thing because the next night income. These emails from women are you awake? Two. Amazing while we'll thank you. Thanks conversation that we have and we'll take to you. And the secret Facebook group where we have. Tens of thousands of women. So it's exciting to be able to bring this to them emerges. So crate full and hopefully when we're in New York and October will be able to connect with come on. We'd love to have to hang out at your house for dinner. So much. We'll see you later. Bye. Bye. Solly for pres- Sally for pres- what a coup chick. S A L L I E, which has bad ass had us. I'm feeling it. She's so cool. Thanks for coming on us read after Trevor Noah feels appropriate man what I would do to come out make out with Trump PR girl that day. Hanging out in the back. He is so fine. So funny. So smart. Stemple everything. Now. He cares. Right back. Sally sorry. Wow. Wow. Thank you. Sally. All right review of the week. Thanks so much for writing reviews. It helps us bring on amazing guests like Sally in. If this podcast has in any way impacted your life taking two seconds to give us a five star review. Would mean a lot truly we share them because we just want to show you out. You guys Diaz when we do. And you're like, oh, my God, you read Merv, you know, it's it's really because we just want to thank you. And it means a lot truly love love. Love five stars. Not only are Krista and Lindsey hilarious women who I could see myself hang out with in real life. But the community that is built up around. The almost thirty podcast is incredible. I don't have many real-life female friends who I could talk about anything with or go to for advice on anything. But I have never been made to feel uncomfortable or weird about anything I've ever posted. Thank you both for creating such an amazing community. That's from Ellie. Oh, love the name Ellie, so cute cute name cinch acute rating, keeped, thank you so much. Thank you all for your support. As always we read every DM, we are very active in our secret Facebook group. So if you haven't joined the group yet, please join we are in there listening to you. It's really the pulse where we kind of get your feedback. We talk about things related to the pod not related to the pod. And just a really great way to support one. Another a can't do this thing alone. So thank you. So so much. Yes. Almost thirty podcasts on Instagram. Give us a follow. Thanks for sharing these episodes in your stories. We always reshare them during the week. So that means a lot that you are sharing these messages with your community your podcast pro while you are podcast pro dot com. If you want to start a podcast, I know all of you guys are not all of you. But so many people damn us and message us about starting a podcast. So we have every single resource that you need on that website. Yeah. All right. Hope you have a great rest of your. We hope you have a great day. Agree life. Never. Later love you.

Elvis CEO Trevor Noah Sally Krajicek Mike New York Amazon partner Netflix Chicago Colette Wall Street Journal Teamsters Christa Williams LA Leising Xerox Sean T Jude
Farewell, Anna!

Slate Money

1:07:14 hr | Last month

Farewell, Anna!

"Hello welcome to the farewell. Anna's manzke episode of slate money your guide to the business and finance news of the week. I'm felix axios. I'm here with emily. Pack of huffpost. Hello and i am very happy and also sad to be here with ana szymanski. Who's last proper episode as late money. This is anna. We have dedicated this episode to you. We get to talk about everything that you want to talk about. Except or maybe fortuitously does a lot of stuff in the news which is well in your wheelhouse this week so we are going to talk about the texas energy crazy. We're gonna talk about the citibank crazy sending nine hundred million dollars to creditors what she shouldn't have done. We are going to answer a bunch of questions from listeners and rising those in and how many how many you to answer. I am answering here i can tell you. Did you make a spreadsheet. It's a word doc. And there's a word on. I am answering five questions. So thank you for sending those in we have a bunch of content here in this his show and if you stay tuned for sleep plus you get to hear an excuse defensive. Tom brady which i can tell. You is worth the price of slate plus membership on. Its own so all of that coming up on slate money slave money sponsored this week by mail chimp which is an all in one marketing platform. They sell you and they sell your products and their platform and their marketing. Smarts can help you bring your ideas forward with mortals. Ever to keep you in your group if you are selling anything than the male chimps smarts have been designed to improve your marketing and leads to better business results so more stuff today with the power of male chimps smarts on the all in one marketing platform and stay tuned later in the episode to hear. Just what these tools can do for you. Schwab knows that investors are real people with real question. that's why the consultants to poor than just take the time to get to know their clients helping them crap personalized plans for retirement tax smart investment strategies and form for advice. Planning for just an ear. Schwab consultants are available by phone or video chat and no extra time to change to a modern approach to wealth management. Learn more at schwab dot com. What happened in texas. We have you for one more week. We need you to explain texas to us. So there was a freak storm in texas and then basically a perfect storm of that led to massive power outages which has then led everyone to try to figure out what has happened. Is it because of deregulation is it. Because of the republicans favorite to blame it on wind turbines or is it from a combination of many things. One of the things. I love about this week. Is that icon. Remember a time. That i've heard about so many five sigma events in one week. Everyone slightly flat. Ten of robinhood ceo kept on talking. About how the games up thing was a five sigma event and then everyone in the weather. Business is talking about how this cold snap in. Texas is a five cigna event and then also if you read the we'll we'll talk about this a little bit later. But if you read the ruling in the citibank versus revlon case that whole wire transfer was five segments event as well as the oddly unprecedented so we we live in unprecedented times but this particular unprecedented time involves texas getting incredibly cold and not just getting going to be killed but staying incredibly cold for days and days and days which has never happened before and which its power. network was just incapable of coping with tail deer. Yes we should say that. Texas had a freeze in twenty eleven and they had trouble delivering power then which was ten years ago and at the time people were saying. Hey prolly should. Winter is your system a little bit better. Maybe this'll happen again. You want to be prepared and they did not prepare. So it's not quite accurate. I think to say that this was totally out of nowhere. Never happened before like the intensity of this. I think is is worse. But they've had cold snaps before and it's reasonable to. They should have been prepared for. This is certainly the case that they might not have had advice movement for but like they've had four signal events before and anyone can extrapolate kind of. It's very easy to foresee that things could be worse in the future than they have been in the past. Yeah although i will say that. I think that it's a little simplistic to say. Well they should have prepared for this and and whenever there is an extreme event. We all say that and it's understandable especially when you have people literally dying or freezing inside of their apartments but this really comes down to the fact that people have to balance. How much do you wanna pay versus. What is the risk and the reality is that did a lot of people in texas want the rates to go up to pay for something. That was gonna happen once every ten years. Now we can say now that maybe now they did. Was it reasonable. Five years ago that they might not want. It may have been reasonable anna. This is the question. I- genuine question. I have about this and i don't know. The answer is most gas and wind in other kinds of electricity production. In most of the world is winterized can cope with this kind of thing in texas. It's texas is warm and arguably people thought they didn't need to but was really that expensive to it when to prove late when you say that rates would go up like would their rates go up by noticeable meaningful amount or was it more just like a. We don't need to because we're in texas. I don't think anyone can say exactly how much the rates would have gone up based on the cost because at the very very complicated calculation but this was would not have been cheap cheap to winner is all these things of course like you can there. Are you know winter binds. So you certainly can make these things function. But it's a very real cost. And i think this is something that is the larger story in this story of this is not just about texas and about people finding something to like or dislike about texas. It's that as climate. Change affects the likelihood of extreme events. It's going to make the need for insurance whether literal insurance or preparing for extreme events. It's going to need to make that. It's going to make that more necessary but it's also going to make it more expensive and the problem. Is that no one ever wants to prepare for things that seem unlikely because no politician. No business person. Frankly no individual likes to do that and it's going to become more necessary but that is the job if the insurance sector right. Yes i mean. The insurance sector is a massive part of the economy and every single politician every single human being like we all ensure stuff. We all understand intuitively. The unlikely things do happen. And it's a good idea to pay a little bit of money on a regular basis so that we are insured against some unlikely event. That probably won't happen. That is how insurance works. The insurance sector is a multi trillion dollar industry globally and it does these calculations all the time and people are actually happy. Paying insurance premiums and winterizing an infrastructure is basically an insurance premiums. I don't understand why when you say like people just want to do it. It's like people happy paying insurance premiums. I i disagree. I think if you look at how ill prepared. We were for the pandemic. If you look on so many factors people do not want to pay for things that do not give them an immediate benefit. I'm not saying that people no one wants to pay for insurance. Of course we do. We have health insurance. If like if we're lucky enough to have health insurance you know. We have insurance for homes insurance for our cars. Nothing people don't pay for insurance but often people do that because they are literally forced to do it. People are horrible at planning ahead. So i think what anna sang hits on the bigger issue in texas and maybe across the country. I mean there's one issue is our infrastructure and our electric grids are too old and they're not going to be capable of handling the extreme weather of climate change. You see it in texas and you see it. In places like california bloomberg opinion had a piece that was really good saying like both texas and california have had problems with their electrical grids dealing with climate change and extreme weather. And you know. Some people look at texas and say it's an unregulated market. That's the problem but then california is regulated and it still has problems so there's more to it than regulation i think part of it is this unwillingness to spend money and it's not just like consumers are price sensitive and don't want us spend more for this kind of thing part of it in texas the companies don't want to spend more because it's of completely free market but even in california. They don't want us to spend more either even though it's it's more regulated in a little less subject to market conditions. There's just an unwillingness across the country in states that are blue and red to spend the money on infrastructure. That's necessary and i think that's not just the in disincentive of like we don't want to spend the money. It's even politicians and governments. Don't spend the money because like it's no fun. Like i think on lizzie. O'leary's podcast the energy experts. She had was saying like you can build a new bridge and you cut a ribbon. It's real cool but like if you go and like make the windmills better for snow like there's no ceremony for that no one care so there's no incentive for the politicians even who want to spend money to spend the money because there's very little reward their super unsexy. That's definitely one of the problems and the cost enormous. I think while the costs of making texas's energy infrastructure moment to prove its right now. I'm not super enormous. They are entirely doable. And they as. I say they happen everywhere else. But more generally appoint is very very well taken that people have been talking about hundreds of billions of dollars worth of broad energy infrastructure upgrades that the united states needs in the united states is enormous and this is really a to a large degree of function of just sheer physical size. The big problem. Nationwide is the america in general with the exception of a handful of large cities doesn't bury as power lines anytime there's like wind power lines fall down and everyone loses power and this is just an accepted normal part of life in america as you know you know. Emily living in westchester new york which is very very rich. Pretty dense part of the new york metropolitan area. It powell goes out all the time whenever whenever. That's windstorm and you're an there if you look at other rich parts of the world if you look at western europe or japan or career like built like that. This is a peculiar americans sort of cheating out on infrastructure and we can point to that kind of keeping out on infrastructure across the country. We can point to an energy. We can point to in broadband. We can point to it in roads and bridges. We can point to it in water like it's everywhere and so in this sense like again and i think anna has a good point you can. You can say yeah. We should have spent more money on better infrastructure for energy in texas but the bigger picture of the amount the sheer quantity of infrastructure investment that. We need nationwide across a whole bunch of different industries. That really does go into the trillions. And you know as a policy perspective. This is something that joe biden ran on. He has this three point something. Trillion dollar bill. Back better plan to really address all of these things and i would ask you is that like is this texas cold snap a sort of salutary reminder of why that kind of thing is necessary yes and i hope it does. Spur people on both sides of the aisle to actually have a real infrastructure week where we actually pass a actual legislation to in fact. Spend a large amount of money to update our infrastructure. Both talking about things like roads and power but also things like broadband. I know like where my family lives. Which is not that far from ann. Arbor their internet's from one thousand nine hundred just one more example of this one thing though. I want to say before we move on to correct you. Felix is that a lot of infrastructure in western europe is falling apart. Germany is notoriously not invested in infrastructure. The our bridges falling apart in italy. So we're not the only country that's lousy about investing instructional as brutalism fan. We all know my little thing about lives. And i can. I can tell you that. A lot of infrastructure is made out of concrete roads. bridges buildings that kind of stuff and concrete. Has this thing where it tends to fall apart. After fifty years and a lot of the infrastructure in western europe and in the united states was built about fifty years ago and this is one of the reasons why the need for massive for passes happening right now is just like the natural time cycle of concrete speaking of crumbling infrastructure. I want to make two points. The first point is. I think it's really come home to us. In the pandemic that all our infrastructure is crumbling like texas shows us that our energy infrastructure is crumbling. The pandemic shows us that our public health infrastructure is nonexistent and our care. Infrastructure is non-existent and the unemployment benefit system is a mess to like all our infrastructure. Seems to be having. Would you call it a six. Sigma it's like it's a lot of sigma. i mean. Things are crumbling. All around us and the second adjacent point to that is just that i think next week or in the coming weeks. We're talking to the author of a book on how cities fall apart. And one of the key is coming. Yes yes and one of the key. Ways societies in the past have fallen apart. One of the pieces that leads to cities like dying is crumbling infrastructure. So i think it's something we need to pay attention. Do like there should be like a red emoji. You know light spinning or something right now because we as like a real time just collapse of everything. I don't think being apocalyptic here am i being apocalypse. Okay but in real way. The apocalypse is a six sigma event. This episode asleep. Money is brought to you by mail. Chip which is a marketing platform. They know about marketing because millions if their customers have sent billions of communications over the last twenty class years they have learned from all of that. And they have some marketing smarts share. Let's say for instance that you have a podcast. I have a podcast. I need to market and some of the skills that you need to make it a podcast. A not always obvious. You'll want to reach the kind of people who might want to listen to your podcast and grab their attention. Male chimps made that easy because they dreamed up a new ways to create beautiful on brand designs in seconds and those designs scale across all kinds of platforms. 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Food dot com slash money posted job. They have a database of people who want jobs they know how to match you having credibly powerful matching technology. It's no wonder that four out of five postman ziprecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. See for three when you go to ziprecruiter dot com slash money. That's ziprecruiter dot com slash. Mo e wide lens ziprecruiter dot com slash. Money take finding qualified off your plate. So you can focus on growing your business. Go to ziprecruiter dot com slash money ziprecruiter. The smartest way to hire so talking about six sigma events and the story of how citibank wound up wiring. Nine hundred million dollars by mistake to a bunch of revlon. Creditors is just so absolutely glorious and soon terrifying and hilarious and it's kind of amazing given the the sequence of events that like it doesn't happen all the time but apparently it never happens before i agree. That was the thing that i found so fascinating about this story and just tobacco up. Basically city wired like nine hundred million dollars to creditors that it of revlon which it did not mean to and while it was able to get some of the money back there was about five hundred million dollars that a number of creditors including like we're not giving it back and a judge just ruled that they don't have to give it back finders keepers is a real thing so this story is way more interesting than just like a fat finger episode. This is really an example of a systems error and as felix said when you understand what happened. it's shocking. That doesn't happen more often because basically what happened and give me a second here is that you have to a little bit. Understand the background of what was going on with revlon. So in two thousand sixteen you had a number of creditors who gave money to revlon. And then over the years. Revlon had problems and so they tried to use legal maneuvers to basically strip collateral from that loans that they could use that loan to borrow additional money. Obviously the creditors didn't like that. There was a lot of contention between the two. I won't go into all the details. Although i think we should put the legal documents on the show notes because it's fascinating story involving a sham revolver as it is called but the upshot is that one ended up happening. Was you had one group of creditors that were being rolled over from an old loan into a new law and then you had another group of creditors who didn't like what revlon was doing. And they didn't want it and they were not being put into that in. So how does citibank factor into this. They were the administrative agent which basically just means they're supposed to basically like process payments back and forth so because of the way their systems were set up the only way that they could pay the interest that had accrued on the loan to the creditors were moving to. The new loan was to pay that interest to all of the creditors because apparently their system had no other way to do it and then on top of that the only way to trigger the payment of that crude interest in their system was to appear to be paying off the entire loan. But what they were supposed to do. Were click certain boxes that told their internal system. We're not actually wearing this money out. It's going to this internal what's called the wash account so it's just like an accounting. The problem is that the way the system was set up. When you were went to click those boxes. You would think if the money you don't want to send out is the principle that would put the bacchus as principal right reasonable. Is that if you quit. The box said principle. But you didn't click to other completely unrelated boxes. Then the money was sent out and there was actually was a warning that came up. That said you are sending money out. But the problem is it didn't say like you're sending the principal out and so the people just assume that that was referring to the crude interest which they were intending to send out. And that's why this happened just incredibly bad software design. Yes there are two different things going on here one. Is that citibank like all other. Big banks is not just a bank that has grown to become very big over the years together by basically baling wire and duct tape a bunch of different banks which have all been merged over the years. It was put together mostly by a guy called sandy. Weill who was famous for being extremely acquisitive and just buying banks all over the world and and sort of stringing together all of those banks were based on ancient technology and on incommensurate inch in technology and so trying to get the mold to to speak to each other in the same language. It's extremely hard and all of technology is now looking extremely dated. And if you look at the screen shot in the ruling that you're like wow this is this is a screenshot from of that was clearly state of the art in late nineteen eighty-four or something and it's just so hard to update everything that no one. It's anything and so the problem is really as you say. One of like information software design not being able to keep up with the world. And when that happens you get these massive eras and and yeah i i agree with you that in a weird way it would have been better if this mistake did happen more often because if the mistake did happen more often they would have realized how incredibly stupid this was and they would have put in a fix but because it had never happened before it was just citibank's dumb luck that the first time this mistake happens it happened to be nine hundred million dollars. Exactly what happens next. I feel like is it starts getting really fun. Right because an anna. You'll stop me if i have this wrong. But city sends out all this money to the creditors some of whom have been fighting to get all that money back so they get the money and they don't know it's a mistake they're just like okay cool and city doesn't realize it's made a mistake for like twenty four hours or something and then finally masters. Could we ever money-back phil sorry. That was a mistake and then all fun guys will not all of them but some of them they start like messaging with each other and just making jokes about it like oh how was your day to day work honey. Oh it was fine except for accidentally sent out nine hundred fifty million dollars. And that's all in the complaint because there was this lag between these people genuinely thought this was the money they were owed and then realizing it was a mistake that contributes to the finders keepers ruling. We have gotten this week right. I mean that's part of it. They didn't really really central part of the ruling is the for the first twenty two hours or whatever it is. Everyone is like walking around scratching their heads going. Why did revlon just pay off blown in full when this loan was trading like twenty cents on the dot makes no sense. But i'll take it and they thought they were. Some you know incredibly crazy sophisticated financial engineering going on by like holding company the holding company or something rather than just like citibank which turned out to be the actual explanation but precisely because no one even entertained the idea the bancaire precisely because of that that turns out to be an important part of why they don't need to give the money back for like relatively obscure jurisprudential reasons. Yes and whether anyone whether anyone actually did think it was a mistake or not like obviously we don't know we're not inside their heads but one of the things that i found so fabulous about this story was just. It's one of the few examples of where snarky emails and beach chat to help you because those didn't start until after they knew it happened so then they can say well if we thought it was a mistake we would've sent those snarky messages before and we wait until clearly we didn't. We didn't think it was a mistake. They still don't have the money though. I mean it's still sort of sitting in a protected account and they can't spend it because citibank is going to appeal. I remember that when we talked about this the first time on this show you and i basically just assumed that citibank would get. It's money back like of course they will. It's a mistake. The world doesn't run on bitcoin. Right the reason why. Bitcoin is bad. A one of the reasons bitcoin is bad. It's precisely because transactions that iraq on a if you're trying to work money stuff in a society that is civil you have to be able to reverse transactions because people make mistakes and one of the fundamental parts of the of the financial system is yeah people make mistakes when people make mistakes as transactions get reversed so we just assumed that that would be the overarching narrative and and legal analysis. Here turns out as this precedent called bunk firms which is and you guys can correct pronunciation on that one but bunk firms turns out to be less like hugely important precedent in this case which at least according to this particular judge means that no one needs to give any money back at back. It's all so if the amount you have received by mistake effectively pays off a debt that you are of ood. Then you can consider that debt to be discharged in return for the value that you receive and so that's fine like you got the money by mistake but then again the creditor no longer owes you the money and so it's all a wash and so the really big question which the judge doesn't on certain in this ruling anyway which is kind of astonishing is does revlon still owe that five hundred million dollars not does it. Oh that five hundred million dollars to citibank now did citibank just off. Revlon's debt with citibank so money. And now that that is discharged. Now it's a very good question and partly this is also why it was so interesting that they like they literally paid off the debt with the accrued interest to the penny and that is part of the reason why the discharge per value works. But yeah i mean this. This does really raise the question of like so. Is this discharged a city. Now have this loan. What because this is. This is a very large amount of money. So it's not like you can just wash pass this. You have to figure out and we. I don't think anybody knows. I mean my guess is right now. We're not gonna know because city is going to keep appealing this. I mean i think i when i heard about this ruling was like that. Is the craziest thing i've ever heard. Common sense tells you if someone makes mistake like that you pay it back like. I don't need a judge to tell me that. But apparently i did need a judge because when you kind of like dig into the ruling just a little bit and the guy explains like like if someone pays you back exactly to the penny what they owe you like. We can't live in a world where every time someone pays you back. You're wondering if it was a mistake or not like we need. We need to believe in it. Like you need to believe it. Oh the money and it gets paid back to you. You're all good like you can't finders keepers does actually kind of make sense in the specific way to keep things working in so we can all trust the system or something. What have you ever think. I was kinda fascinating about. This was that part of the reason. The creditors could also say that well. We were do this. Money was because they had actually issued a default notice because they disagreed with what revlon was doing. And citibank had not distributed at that default notice which these creditors were not happy about. But technically if if you have invented the than you can you could have a bunch of people accelerate the debt which would mean all the debt was due so that was another thought just kind of interesting fact about this and then maybe like last thing i'll say because i think this actually weirdly ties into what we were saying before is that this is another example about the problems of infrastructure. Yes yeah because the thing is like when you have systems whether you're talking about a country or whether you're talking about internal systems where you have trillions of dollars moving back and forth. It's not like somebody starts from scratch and plans this perfect system and it's not like you can be like okay everybody. We're just gonna be offline for a week. The entire world global financial system. We're going to redo this and start over again. No you keep patching keep making changes you add this and you say well. This doesn't work so we're going to. We're default boxes and oh we're gonna do this and then you get to this place where everything's just a complete mess but it's not easy to move to a more coherent system and so i think you're seeing that in both our our power grid and our settlement system but why is my iphone. Always updating. They figured it out. Okay so this is actually a really good way of understanding it because what we're talking about here with systems architecture and what apple does is it keeps an absolutely iron grip on its entire ecosystem and if you want to have an app in the app store you have to jump through so many apple hoops and make sure that you play well with absolutely everything in apple's os and apple won't let you onto a phone unless you do that. Unless you're constantly updating things to make sure they work and so on and so forth and the itself as you say is constantly updating itself and and patching various bugs appear over the over the days and weeks and that is a single privately-owned system and even just maintaining. Is you know it takes a trillion dollar company to do that. We're talking about here is distributed systems where there is no central authority like appaled making sure that everything is working in a state of the outweigh. I remember having a conversation with max levchin ones who was the co founder of paypal and one of the ideas behind pay pal was basically that the global financial system was this coupled together mess of pieces of software that have huge amounts of difficulty talking to each other and if you just started from scratch and built a single system with internet technology it would be much more efficient than much easier us and what they did with pay pal and that worked and then if you fast forward like another ten fifteen years pay pal itself you know a bunch of companies needed bunch of patches and started looking incredibly antiquated and so then what you have is something like stripe coming along and it's like really sleek and smooth and easy to use and everyone's like oh you suddenly straight becomes the new hot sexiness and pay pal starts looking a little bit old-fashioned and this is a constant thing of different companies developing different things and whoever's the newest always looks the cleanest it's basically effectively impossible to impose that new cleanliness on everything that went before so in terms of like infrastructure upgrades. You'd need to bring everybody up and that effectively impossible when it comes to the global financial system and that's the deep nali problem at the middle of all. This is at the same thing with the energy sector to is that the also our electric grids problem. And there's never going to be like a new like a stripe to come in and be like we do it better than you like. You're just off. I mean there's been a lot of talk this week about how texas is not on the national grid and because it's on the national grid isn't regulated in the same way that other than national grid regulated but in terms of would texas have had access to a bunch of power from washington state if on the national grid no like power doesn't travel that far doesn't travel efficiently in the way that like money does and if you connected texas to the power grid that might be a few like regulatory changes involved but in terms of suddenly having access to a beautifully efficient national infrastructure thing. No that's not. How energy works and is is like you know his talking about concrete again. But it's something which is very local and it needs to be produced locally so like apple can't make a new energy for the whole country and solve all our problems that was enron slate money supported by first republic. Main ask herself this. Is your bank really know you. It's time to discover the difference. Personalized banking can make by switching to first republic bank from day one. You'll be connected with a dedicated banker. Serve as your primary point of contact out your relationship with the bank. No you by name. 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It's totally different. Always get real midmarket exchange rate. You said money to eighty countries no matter which currency you said and their fees are always super low. that's why transfer wise puts the and the fees right upfront. Nothing to hide but price is just one reason. Transfer wise rules speed is another with transfer. Facebook fifty percents transfers ride route one hour. So you don't just save money you save yourself stress over yet. They're transfer weiss even has multi-currency account. Let you pull up the earth and their debit card. Let you spend or send international boring sneaky for infant action charges. Join over nine million customers. Who saved with a three million dollars. Bowed rates every day and try transfer lies for free at a transfer wise dot com slash slate. This episode is brought to you by progressive. Saving money on your car. Insurance is easy with progressive. It's an average savings of over seven hundred and fifty dollars for customers who switch and save in fact. Customers can qualify for an average of six discounts on their auto policy with progressive including discounts. Just for starting quote online are having multiple vehicles on their policy. Get your quote online at progressive dot com and see how much you could be. Saving national annual auto insurance savings by new customers surveyed in two thousand nineteen potential savings will vary discounts vary and are not available in all states and situations. Okay anna we got questions for you. You are the person with the answer's yes and thank you so much to study. Who wrote in and said very kind things again. I gonna miss gonna miss everybody here. Miss miss all of you listeners. I'm trying to answer as many of these questions. As i can without going going too long so to start with ian. Smedley asked who i read. Just basically stay up to date on financial journalism. And this i would say i honestly get most of my day to day. News through podcast. One of the few sources for financial journalism. I do read. Every week is breaking views partly because i worked there and also because their content is short and i think better than pretty much everywhere else but i skim the financial times. I skimmed the wall street journal. But i don't think day to day. News is as important as larger trends. So i know this sounds really pretentious but i actually spent a lot more time reading books than i do reading online news. I do like the economist every week. But i really spent a lot more time reading books. I just think it's more helpful. I'm gonna come in with a little plug here. Just because we're in podcast world and i listened to an hour long podcast this week. Daniel torello the former head of bank supervision at the federal reserve Had a big podcast. On this abacha's they had a big interview on banking with interest. Podcast which knife. Anyone subscribes to the banking with bogus. Rub blackwell into you in for an hour just talking about exactly this kind of thing really big picture questions about. What does it mean to supervise rather than regulate and stuff like that. And it's a great idea to get out of the new cycle and just think those big picture thoughts on a regular basis because it does help you understand the news when news happens. Yeah that's and that's exactly it it just because you can just pull things from different sources. I know when i was you know briefly working as a journalist often the most interesting ideas i had were from a random book. I had read. That wasn't directly related. But there's an interesting idea that that connects and look at it an interesting way and i think otherwise a lot of people do end up kind of often sometimes saying the same things or something becomes very quickly out of date so i would definitely say spend a little bit more time on larger picture things. Podcast anna do you listen to so i do. Honestly listen to a lot of bloomberg podcasts. Odd lots i actually particularly like and like bloomberg surveillance. Yeah i listen to thirty different by gas. I also the bbc global news also global news is a fantastic and tastic podcast. So what you're saying that basically if you wanna have a well rounded view of the world you need to do. The peculiar amish manzke thing of going on long runs every day. Because that's the only one with ever be able to listen to so many bogus. Okay this joe that number one. I listened to everything like one and a half times the speed. But yes i do. I'm a distance runner so that definitely helps doing like four hour rhymes. You can get their bikes. I also liked to cook. And so that's another great way to listen to podcasts. I live by myself. So basically if i'm not speaking with another human being i'm probably listening to a podcast audiobook to a somewhat crazy degree at one. And a half time speed anna. Yeah people speak. So slowly. And i realized quickly. I know that that is a running joke. I although i will say slow down from when i first started on the show i think so but now i understand why. Talk back because everything you listen to. You is really fast. Of course you're talking really fast all the time because that's what you're used to well. No i spoke quickly endless because people think often very very slowly on us. Are you sure you have to go. This now mean anivit. Suddenly a large proportion of the slate money listenership is going to start listening to save money on one point five x because they don't need to do the one thing just for you anymore. I still listened to myself on my goodness people. Speak slowly man. She's gets the point. Get to the point of saying okay. Then we have. Stu van era style said excellent name. Who wrote about okay. Cupid profiles and dating profiles general. And whether i think there's value to dating profiles and this is based on the discussion. We had last week about dating sites. I'm going to say. I think there is absolutely no value dating profiles. I'm sorry stu i i can understand. Maybe if people enjoy reading them but for actual dating it makes absolutely no sense. Because everybody knows when you're doing online dating you look at the photo ninety five percent then maybe you look at like the age where somebody works where they went to college political politics that is it. Nobody cares anything else. And the whole point of on my day. Good thing online dating is that it gets you to meet people who actually want to date and the more time you waste before. That is just pointless. 'cause you always waste so much time to online dating anyway so that anything that creates more waste. I say. Get rid of the only good thing about tinder that it kind of moved in the direction of being like. Yeah nobody reads dating profiles. I say this as someone who used to have very long involved. Okay cupid profile. Let's see We have a richard shuman. Who asked if i've ever changed felix's opinion about anything such a good quantum is a very good question now. I've been doing this. Podcast for number of years. And i definitely do think that i know when i changed felix his opinion not because he actually says you right and i was wrong anna which i never say when someone's because six weeks later i'll start man's planning your own explanation back to you. Yes does you actually have signed up. But it's often. I know when i changed felix his opinion partly because of the way he will respond to me that often what he will do is he will kind of change the topic. You won't say that. He was rounded kind of change the topic and then jump off from what i said as though he had always agreed. I always do like a small little jig inside whenever it happens. It doesn't happen that frequently but when it does it makes me very happy. Because i know what i i started this show like. I was not prepared to debate with felix salmon. Now i as. I'm sure everyone knows how the show love should debate is my favorite thing in the world to do and when i first came on this show it was. It was so hard to debate with felix. Because you would ask questions that. No one would expect someone to ask. It'd be like having an argument about something related. Climate change. You'd be like. Why is the sky. Blue questions like are actually really really important because a bad example but pushes that are very important but nobody really thinks of and doing the show has really. I think made me a better debater because i would always have to be prepared for whatever random thing you would ask me so i would do this beforehand about like. What random thing is it's gonna ask and whenever you would ask me one thing that i thought you were gonna ask me. It made me so happy. Are you guys gonna say any example of an example that felix's mine was changed. I think recently. We had not that long ago discussion on tiered interest rates. And i thought as we were talking. That felix was starting to agree with me. Maybe i was wrong. But i felt as though he was starting to agree with my point that the whole concept of tiered interest rates was missing the point that monetary policy was a bad tool based on what was currently happening in the economy. And whether or not one could agree with them in theory they didn't necessarily make sense in practice right now and i kind of felt like by the time we were dot was. That was a good conversation. And and yeah. I think that's right. There was this kind of compelling odd. Lots of gus actually trying to explain why offering different interest rates. The different kinds of borrowers to kind for different. Kind of things makes a bunch of sense for monetary policy. Which i think is still does but you had some very good arguments against it so beautiful. You know what you actually changed my mind on. I think the single biggest thing. You've changed my mind on is the wealth wealth tax on whether it's actually constitutional on i'm a big fan of wealth taxes. I'm i'm now coming around to your point of view that whether or not think they should exist. It's almost got it impossible to imagine them getting lost the judicial system because there's a whole bunch of constitutional reasons why they can't exist especially with court as it is currently constituted. It definitely seems like it is probably not the most useful thing to focus on again whether or not one agrees with the underlying wealth taxes while glad to hear that that was the last question because this is my absolute favorite question. It's kitten. Patel asked l. rita's because it short when if ever will jim harbaugh deliver michigan football if never do you think he should be replaced. Now i have very very strong opinions about this. I say as. I'd like literally wearing michigan sweatshirt. So as again everyone lives podcast knows. I mildly obsessed with michigan football. Jim harbaugh for those of you. Who don't know is the coach of michigan football. He's been there since two thousand fifteen. He was a quarterback at michigan. One point that he was a coach other colleges in the nfl and he came in as a savior of michigan's program. Because it had really really been in the dumps for a while and while he improved things he's achieved basically none of what he came to michigan to which he we've not won a big ten championship. We haven't gone to the playoffs and national championship. And most importantly of all we have not beaten ohio state. Which is the thing we care about more than anything else. I realized it doesn't make any sense but so he recently had a contract extension and michigan site horrible football season this year. it just absolutely abysmal. They all of us just wish they had never played. it was bad but his contract was extended. And here's the. I liked him. I want jim harbaugh to succeed. However i am very skeptical that jim harbaugh will be able to succeed. He has made a number of changes. Got rid of our defensive coordinator rotting some nice new talent. Some also other coaches. I think will be really good recruiters. We've had a relatively new offensive coordinator. So i think we have a chance but the thing is i just feel like his understanding of football. Maybe a little bit out of date. And i don't know if he's ever going to be able to produce for michigan and lasting say that i think he has a very limited amount of time in order to produce. I think that unless he beats ohio state in the next two years. He's gone. So how long has he been at michigan. And how much is he paid. So good question. So he started in two thousand fifteen and and his he was been. He's been known as the most one of the most. Well paid coaches. Who's paid like eight million dollars. Paid a lot of money this most recent contract extension. He took a massive hake and almost the majority of the money is making. Now is actually incentive payments. We actually has to meet targets. These incentives things like beating ohio. He gets like an extra ohio state. University of ohio. miami of ohio. There's ohio state hate. Yeah unfortunately ohio state is a very good team. It sucks when you're you're rival happens to be one of the best teams in the country. Have you thought about doing a football. Podcast anna because you really just sounded like a sports podcast or just now on. Your speaking is very in the mode of of sports podcasts. I would love to do that. I basically listen to finance podcasts. Some other news. And then i could you not. I think i listened to seven michigan. Podcasts and ben. Listen to a couple other like college guns ridiculous. It's insane but it's not just football else. Listener basketball shout michigan. One last night on the interceded rutgers replying how state this weekend and basketball big game so yes i would love to do a also especially ethical. Why is it. Because you're from michigan. Did you grow up with the team. Is that it all comes down to here. Yeah it's i am from this town called dexter which is just outside of ann arbor. Almost everyone my family went to michigan like my dad went to michigan and for medical school. One of my sisters michigan. Two of my uncles went to michigan. My dad won't sold. His medical practice to michigan and sports is really a big thing in my family and so literally. My earliest memories are of college. Football like my earliest memory. I feel like as my mother telling me. We say go blue on saturdays and sundays. We say the lines are horrible. Because we're always horrible. So no it was really i mean i was obsessed when i was a kid like to the point that my family i was inconsolable in michigan lost like i would cry now. It was ridiculous. But yeah i started going to the game when i was really young and while i understand. There are a lot of complications of college sports general especially football. I understand all of those things but it is something that is like the thing i was raised on that i love more than anything else. Wow that will lead us into our slate plus actually oh yes and so. The sleepless is going to be about tom. Brady that right. Yes 'cause i made this joke last week. When felix was saying for me to say like i last hot takes that. I really like tom brady. And i know this is a very controversial thing to say because so many people hate tom brady so i will explain my love of tom. Brady in like okay. My defense of tom brady plus before we have anna szymanski's take defensive tom brady. We still have a numbers round so emily. What's your number. My number is sixteen hundred dollars. That is the tax bill that this one woman. I spoke to for a story. I wrote this week has to pay because she got unemployment insurance benefits in twenty twenty so she owes now one thousand six hundred dollars to the irs. she is one of. i think it's going to be like millions of people who got a lot of money and unemployment insurance benefits last year because the benefits were really good and because of honestly dumb reasons. The united states makes you pay taxes on your unemployment insurance which is again dumb. And the fault of a conservative economists from the late nineteen seventies. Who thought that. If you didn't tax unemployment insurance benefits you would never work again. Because they would be so great which is hilarious and ridiculous just based on common sense and also what i learned. Is that a lot of people. Don't even know you have to pay taxes on the benefits. So how could they be an incentive or not if you don't even know about them anyway so there are a lot of money went out and twenty twenty. A lot of people are gonna own money. A lot of them still aren't working some of the ones i spoke to said they're gonna use. Maybe their stimulus money to pay the taxes. Which is just the dumbest thing i've ever heard. Because you're supposed to use the money like for staff not to just give it right back to the federal government it's real dumb save wrote about it and and that's my number the two types of income. That's like text income and non-tax. I feel on some level all income should just be taxable trying to carve out like oh this is like interest on municipal bonds. And so you shouldn't have to pay income tax on this one special type of income is really dumb and i kind of liked the idea that you just you know income taxes based on how much money you end the air and then you pay tax on that and if the government wants to give you more money you know then it just should give you more money and the taxable unemployment benefits should be higher than a non-taxable unemployment benefit. But like doesn't it make sense to everything to be taxed problem to have this incredibly complicated tax code where you try and divide income up into is taxed and taxed. I mean i think that if the state or the federal government is giving you money in aid money that it shouldn't be taxed. It's not the same thing as income. Like snap benefits you. Don't get a bunch of food stamp money and then have to pay some back and taxes. It's just what is the it doesn't it doesn't make sense. It's not income in the way you're thinking like money you get for doing a job or money you get from an investment or something. This is like aid. I it's just so I don't think it's not commenting. That's a good point that out of the tax system in that sense it's closer to a gift right and you don't need to pay income tax on gifts that it's over a certain amount of. Yeah but i think the that amount is like literally like three hundred thousand dollars or something massive. I mean it's just. The money is coming from in this case the federal government but it's partly state aid and we. I'm sorry about that part but the point is like the government wanted to help you and give you this money to help you get by and not want some of back. It's just it's illogical it's it's not the same thing as as income and in two thousand and nine as part of the rescue package. They pass them. They exempted unemployment insurance from income tax. Like the first two thousand dollars you got and this time there's a proposal floating around from like dick durbin to do it again but it hasn't gotten much traction and yet there's so much more money at stake for people because of those extra member. It was six hundred dollars extra per week so a lot. Some people made like as much as like twenty thousand dollars from these benefits. And they're gonna and they're facing big bills and some of the state unemployment agencies weren't even able to withhold taxes from the payments especially the new stuff which went out to freelancers in part timers like they didn't even have the option of withholding. So it's kind of a mess and i. I don't think it should be treated the same as income mostly in in favor of what felix said in terms of keeping the tax code. Very very simple. But i do think that you know especially when you're talking about a crisis moment and especially when you are like sending people money because we had to shut the economy down like a. It just seems like you should make an exception there. You should make a pretty broad exception just to make it simple. Yeah i mean. I think used to be unemployment. Insurance was intact like that at all and they changed it in In nineteen seventy eight for the reason. I was telling you this. Harvard economist is a very big deal. Marty feldstein was very yes that this would be. I spoke to one of his students. Who's now on a a grown person and said this stupid. And he said yeah no. It's stupid feldstein. Also believed in trickle down economics. And other things. I think we all agree where stupid. That's my fancy word for it. My number is two hundred and forty dollars. Which is the median amount of money in a robin hood account. This was a number that dropped out of the robin hood testimony in front of congress. This week that something over thirteen million robinhood accounts out there but a lot of them have basic money in them and we just saw robin hood raising three point. Four billion dollars a unknown valuation connected to its ipo price but possibly as high as that he three billion dollars. And i do kind of wonder how much does investors think the accounts with fifty bucks one hundred bucks two hundred bucks a really going to grow In order for the that kind of can to get justified so my number is one percent so in keeping with my statement about big picture thinking in eighteen. Twenty two the bank of england lowered interest rates for the first time ever from five percent four percent so the they lowered at one percent michigan one hundred basis points and this created this massive lending bubble and involved other things that the bank vancouver was doing related to debt but it fueled actually the first emerging market debt crisis because you had a lot of latin american countries that were newly independent so a lot of them are issuing debts including countries that didn't actually exist like the best cadet story ever and then it ended up resulting in this massive crisis where a tremendous number of small banks failed. And you had this famous quote that the country was within four twenty hours of returning to a state of barter. The reason i just bring this up is because you kind of look throughout history having overly loose monetary policy very often leads to negative consequences. And while i have no. Criticisms of the fed or many central banks have done in this crisis. I think they did exactly what they should have done. I think that we're entering this era where people are becoming far too trusting that central banks can do anything that you know. These are all essentially like superman and women and that they'll be able to control everything and that there won't be any negative consequences and while i can't say there will be because not a fortune teller. I just think that this is one of the most important things that is occurring in the economy. One of the most important things that is occurring and finance. It's at the heart of almost every story we talk about is you're like well central banks well central banks and so. I think that people should just be a little bit more skeptical about this idea that central banks are all powerful so one of the big discussions. That's been happening in the macro world of late. It's this idea that fiscal policy. If we have like a one point nine trillion dollar stimulus could cause inflation. Then you have people like janet yellen and shape how coming out and saying well look if it does cause inflation. We have the tools to deal with that. And in fact santa rosa's had down that book us and it is definitely culpable. It's a perfectly rational belief to believe that wrong about that and if inflation does arrive they will find it harder to stamp out then they seemingly think but if that's the case and if you're right the you know there's a bunch of negative consequences to overly lax monetary policy. What does that mean in practice. Should central banks be doing something different. Should public policy be different should fiscal policy Be different should we be building some other form of resilience that will be able to cope with these negative consequences in the future. That the practical implication of what you said. I think that's a really important question. I would say number. One i do. Think the reliance on monetary policy that we seem basically since the nineteen eighty s. I think we should. And i do think people are questioning whether that makes sense. Because it does lead to a lot of things like asset price inflation and maybe isn't also necessarily the best tool to stimulate economic growth and also increases wealth inequality and so i- partly as a policy measure. I do think we should consider how to use fiscal measure. Fiscal policy appropriately. Now i realize the counter to that would be well but it's going to be harder to use fiscal policy if rates go up and that's a legitimate concern and i think then that leads to the other problem of looking at like i think one of felix is least favorite word structural problems like what are some of the issues that are keeping growth lower in a number of developing economies. Is there anything we can do about that now. I do tend to agree. That i don't think rates will ever go up to where they were potentially in the past i. I can't see that for sure but it does seem like like natural rate of interest probably declined because of a number of factors like an aging population and technology globalization. In all these things. However i do think that we should consider what are the negative aspects of having rates potentially too low and i do think one of them is at encourages people to take more and more risks in encourage people to take more and more debt. And so i i do think partly. It's shifting more towards fiscal policy. It's looking at these underlying structural problems. It is probably making sure that you do have strong. Regulations in terms of the banking sector. The other problem. Though i would say. And i don't have an answer for some of this is the if you if you're around with my onset but like one seemingly obvious answer to this which wouldn't necessarily solve all the problems but would solve a few of them would be to abolish the tax deductibility of interest payment hartley. And i actually agree with you. I think it probably makes sense potentially to do that. Maybe you can make arguments sides. But i think it's i think that's a reasonable suggestion. I don't think that's necessarily going to solve all of the problems you know. There's no silver bullets in this one. Yeah and i know my answer is probably not the most successful answer. And that's partly because there isn't an easy answer for this and this is part of the reason you know people who are way smarter than i am are still just kind of muddling along and trying to figure out. What exactly do we do. Because obviously everyone knows that there are risks out there. Everyone knows that there when you have the companies including very very risky companies being able to borrow debt very very cheaply but then the question becomes rates. Go up or any of these people to be able to service this debt. People know that but then the question is what do you do. And we don't have a lot of great answers for that very satisfying weights and okay on which deeply deeply unsatisfying. We i think this final anna. Chemin ski episode is late. Money needs to get wrapped up. I hope that somehow in some crazy use we will have you wait. We willing have you back on the show. Because we have a whole miniseries s late money goes to the movies episodes which have yet to come out the next one on. Tuesday is michael clayton. We have pizza. Kafka fighting with anna szymanski over langlade in which is going to. It's it's a fun little augie. Baiji that one so we will have a little bit more on this show but anna thank you so much for being on this show for however many years it's been i mean time has no meaning anymore in this pandemic but it feels like it's been an extremely long time. It's been amazing having you on. It's been amazing talking about movies with you and obviously it goes without saying that if you can get it passed your new compliance department or whoever you a welcome back on slate money at any time in the future. Well thank you so much. It has it has been. It's been four years almost almost exactly four years which is kind of hard to believe. But it's been awesome. This has been such a cool experience. And i i am definitely gonna gonna miss all you guys. Oh okay so that's it. Thank you anna again. Thank you just meant for producing and thank you for sending in those lovely notes to anna. Who will still be getting notes on slate money at slate dot com for a little while. Yet we're not gonna take her off the slate email for the time being. If you could do one thing for me. I would very much appreciate it. Which is an online survey. We need to know who you are. It's at slate dot com slash survey. And if you answered the questions that it'll make this podcast on all of sleet much better. Stay tuned for anisimov skis defensive. Tom brady from sleepless.

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Dr. No w/ Tubo Paul

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1:10:12 hr | 1 year ago

Dr. No w/ Tubo Paul

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You're listening learning to right now just search for empty frames on the spotify APP or Browse podcasts in Your Library Tab and follow me so you never miss an episode of empty frames. spotify is the world's leading music streaming service and now it can be your Go-to for podcasts too in March Eighteenth nineteen ninety the most audacious art heist of all time took place at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum Liam in Boston Checkout Season One of empty frames for a twelve episode dive into the Gardner Heist this season we will be exploring other art cries and significant moments in the art world before returning to the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. I this is empty frames. Welcome to empty frames. I'm Tim here today in the crawlspace studios in worm town with Lance Lance. How are ya I couldn't be better? How are you today? I'm doing great. We talked to an old buddy of ours Paul Turbo Henry Henry Yeah we were introduced turbo back in the first season of empty frames. He came on and introduced a new policy a new return policy for the thirteen pieces of art to be returned to the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. We presented that through through a change dot org campaign and gathered signatures which will then go to the mayor of Boston turbos and interesting guy he goes at such a pace that you just sort of jump on and you. You're you ride the conversation a and you let him drive and ray from the get-go. It's it's pretty apparent that he's he's starting and we just gotTa keep up yeah. It's a lot of fun talking to turbo and if you haven't signed this petition for an itemized Gardner reward price list to please go to change dot org and sign it it is also in the show notes at you. Click the link of air and go sign up so this conversation lands we kind of cover interesting topic that we cover that we talk about a lot and sees one. It comes up up often in doing what we do with this and it's the idea that there is this rich person out there sipping brandy looking at their personal art collection by themselves because all the art is stolen yeah. There's this world of these people bowl that we've titled Doctor knows because it comes from the James Bond movie where you have a similar villain character and this is an echelon of person that is beyond our comprehension as far as wealth is concerned so these for yourself well. I mean as far as I'm concerned <hes> now I understand there's a lot of gravity on the other side of the table here. Turbo brings up this doctor no character and we explore that in season one and we explored you know even off of the show and it it really is such a fascinating concept zip these dr no characters do exist because initially here. There's no doctor no character out there but there are well. I would say it's it you. I think oh well that makes sense yeah. There's rich people out there. They're drinking brandy. They're sitting on their yachts. They have these stolen paintings and then when you learn a little bit more about it. It's like well actually that kind of doesn't seem super likely that there's these underground rich people like unknown and things like that but here's the twist we actually do know a lot of the doctor no people they're people that we have heard their artists. They're like Steven. Spielberg for example is one of the people we talk about as being a possible doctor no type short so you have different categories that turbo gets into you have the Steven Spielberg type you have boy George was the other one which was really interesting. Those people return the stolen art work and they they do not they they they get it through an auction ear and it's it comes to comes to light that this thing was stolen but there are other people that turbo gets into who do do operate on a more underground level and that's really fascinating and he we go to different topics but really the doctor stuff is is the most fascinating okay so we hope you enjoy it and follow us on twitter at empty underscore frames and subscribe on stitcher premium. Why do I don't you go to stitcher dot com slash premium use code frames and you get a free month on stitcher premium and then your subsequent months or four ninety nine and you don't just get our shows you get a ton of content there? There's a ton of comedy content. You get a ton of extras from other true crime in other Genre podcasts that you love so it's it's a it's well worth these small amount of money that you'd pay a month all right so here is the interview with Paul Turbo Henry and we jump right into it and we are talking about our episode three with Asia Romano talking about banks they think I'm what he's managed to achieve as financial security notoriety and a kind of street crates which is virtually impossible in any other genre. You know he's done extremely well out of. You've Coltrane himself is someone who objects to everything about capitalism but in the end is the perfect capitalist because he's selling a product on the Bisi so I'm against everything but on profiting from I'm not fair enough good lots of the mind I also love. He's <hes> these lines where he happy <hes> version and the guy in the Komo theology of that Agai demonstrates but being in sort of anti hero you actually you almost become the hero be up on the very nature of that yeah that's very well put and we were trying to wrap our heads around it when we were speaking with Asia Romano and and we we we wrap our heads around it then we got our heads all tangled again but you put it really well when you said that he is he is anti-capitalism but ultimately even when he destroys his work he is profiting and benefiting from it in a capitalist way which is sort of him giving the Middle Finger to the whole thing in the first place the agreement I mean you know and I think he I mean is there is a place for that. In the Genre of art we've seen historically but when we look back Hong reflects I was down such as something like I'd say does today eight fifty years time someone look back and say and would regard him probably his mind strain or would <hes> wouldn't realize the that's true yeah. I think that a claiming him to be mainstream <hes> years from now I think is is right on the money because he's so popular <hes> and it's hard to differentiate between tween mainstream and popularity even if you are kind of giving the finger to it yeah of course so made you be honest. Look back on all the time caught teenage bulk dylan teenage they were going to change the well in many respects but when we look at them from site to two thousand nineteen looking back on those people's mainstream yet that's that's accurate they were also very much a product of their time and they they took advantage of that. Timeframe Lake banks is takes advantage of the timeframe now heavy heavy commercialism heavy capitalism and he's the you know the whole ninety nine percent and the one percent he's taken advantage of of his time in history yeah yeah yes exactly I mean renegades all is aimed up becoming the thing that I find that in the first place I mean you know in lots of ways you guys renegades but it is you become a more global products. You know hats people will be more accepting of that and then you might even find yourself self censoring or tempering down to fit into that kind of wider arena. I mean lots of people politicians politicians start off saying I'm going to change well yet and then realize I can only do certain things or only allowed to do things well you. Sir also renegade you started off as one thing and you turned into almost the thing that you were rallying. I guess for lack of a better word against is that is that pretty accurate yeah fair enough yeah exactly I'm going to be honest with you. There was to get more knighthood the right way in the fall and to be honest in the false white was very very attractive especially with the narcissism of the ninety nine thousand nine hundred which today's mainstream you know I mean the narcissistic side of human nature is is quite dominant especially in western science so we had you on our first season of empty frames to talk about the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum Heist and you described a little bit about what you did in your past and your your history in the art community just a quick refresher. What is your past asked? And what do you do now. Well I came from. I pull family in Bryan on the south coast of England and young age I went out on the knocker which is coating on householders huns to try try to buy takes a fraction of their value. <hes> all to pop send back burglars to steal those antiques full full await. I moved swiftly up the rights and by the twenty one I was one of the biggest high was installed in in Europe and sending things to America and exploiting those things I continued on Gotcha the talk and then retired when my son was born I then went to university and honest degree and a master's degree. I'm now spend what time is I- condo firewall between Young dwelled and law enforcement insurance and victims and just try to offer my opinions and try to resolve situations in an amicable y the Mike everyone a a little bit happy rob one side completely happy. You sound way overqualified to be talking to us right now for the second time yeah now no no I'm. Honestly at the end of the night I'm a good organizer. I can get things into play but the end of the day they're people who coat finishes. <hes> you know I can bring out nuggets tight will bring the diamonds the table but he's out to someone to call this shit in China from a rough diamond into a sparkling diamond so not my idea with the god Rot Heist <hes> you know I had thugs ideas and it needs someone to take those I._D.'s forwards and the the proof of the including moving the recovery of some of the God. If I issue a gone we won't priceless that's right so if you're out there and listening to this and you haven't signed this petition yet that is asking for an itemize reward list for all the stolen items of the Garner Heist. Please sign this petition. It is in our show notes very easily accessible. So what have you been up to. Since we last spoke well you up in these kinds Geico to actually just consider the idea of the gardener aren't reward price list. I've also been floating ideas about possible private involvement in trying to recover the God I five while site a billionaire philanthropist to CA- patch a private rewards <hes> which could take citing the government out of this you know at the moment because we museum reward combined with the F._B._i.. It's almost like a government on program. It's big government so perhaps it will take the private sector to offer a reward without any conditions from a billionaire philanthropist who would love to see the garden rock recovered that might appeal to those people who because Oh control aw that's pretty compelling idea that is a very high level idea and very ambitious and impressive <hes> the current signees for the change dot org campaign to bring the Gardner art back. That's that's up to I believe one hundred and five and we're going to try to get to two hundred and this is going to be delivered to the mayor of Boston to see if he can implement some sort of change there and really is spearheaded by by by you <hes> turbo. Well yeah the end of the day you know it types more one more one shefty out you cook you know the hike but the the whole the whole thing is is that the end of the diocese wanted to bite you know I won't the garden the Museum to actually debate why have issued a garden rock reward priceless. I wanted to debate whether private involvement could ease the way because of the burdens of office that the Garden Museum highs the realize craps <music> out their hands to a private setup where people couldn't just hold their nose allows God to surface and a reward repaid <hes> those kind of things that I'm actually looking to try got to get implemented as a side. It's just having the debates and I can honestly say universally everyone. I've spoken to about the garden opera walled priceless says it's a wonderful idea and I kind of believe that it hasn't it hyping lobbying for it for now it is a bit of a head scratcher why it hasn't been lobbied like this before and even considered when it is such a good idea it is it is a really good idea if there is any genuine and desire to get that artwork back but there are many many factors in this and this is not a criticism of the F._B._i.. But what they've done is titan had volunteered you regard the case on night weaponized the guard MC heis and used that ignites <music> serious criminals to bring them to trial to jail them and to try to pressure them but he's almost been like a weapon. Be is used in crimefighting now. I'm not criticizing that unfortunately what that is damaged driven Gardner all the underground since we last spoke Paul there was another podcast that had happened about the Gardner. Hi Sue was called last seen and <hes> just curious about your thoughts on that. It's a highly polished professional professional podcast series that you would expect when he has the backing of a huge television network and the Boston Globe and money wasn't a factor in it <hes> <hes> attempt to tell the story as many others has <hes> and of these are things like missed out on the cutting room and I think it's perfectly legitimate acceptable and it was it it was easy listening and it's got out to a very wide old. Yes and I wish them the best of luck with it. <hes> the only thing I would say is that by their own admission by hat to self censor <hes> because caused Lila Fun when really Yoder's of the newseum the you know obviously the owners of the Boston Globe and the television station. Did they contact you for any contribution. Listen to their series. Yes loss in pub- costs contacted me. I'm a guy with footage Keti Horon <hes> about the Irish connection and other things things on the garden <unk> obviously <hes> the hasn't unbathed or whether ever would be <hes> there is a problem <hes> cutting horon speed cuts and all of them are saying say that the garden we will oh Christ. He's a very very good idea. The only properties the is having the courage to actually address issues over reward and immunity now. Whatever the reasons are why not be allowed to do that last fall outside? That's interesting that you were not given the opportunity to hear your interview on one of their episodes. I'm wondering what that what the purpose of that was whether you don't fit into the narrative of where they were going with that season or maybe you said something that perhaps hit a little too close to a more controversial note well first. Let's be on the Irish connection hasn't hasn't been made so the there are other contributors all not which cutting her on setting public. That's Charlie hills yet Scotland Yard detective she went to Dublin followed up on the Irish. They haven't episode right so so so so I have been on <hes> not least because they have an episode and I might doing in the New Year. I'm you know I think they're gonNA do something on the wife Ufology killing and that my actually an mixing on segue into the Irish connection yes but as I've said all along it really doesn't matter who has these the Gardner up who has the Gardner are or who controls the garden up until that is he's a policy wide. When those people killed I can hand the God garage and get paid I would? We're never going to get any movement. You mentioned Whitey Bulger's murder <hes>. Do you think there was any gardner heists connection in in that now. I don't think there was any dog hus- connection. I think it was a case of <hes> I don't know I don't know what start latching for her benefits and you actually after side the benefits from the Whitey Bolger Demise <hes> and <hes> the system benefits because he doesn't have to pay for the incarceration of wate bow job however it does nothing will protect join <unk> in the future coming forward to help authorities because if I feel a sudden doesn't matter how long tight somebody's you know the bank could be murdered. It may prevent people becoming informants in the future. I I mean factually someone like rob. Mura actually benefits because Whitey Bolger could have made accusations true or not which could approved embarrassing to rob a kite. No I'm not saying anything until whether there is any related to what Whitey Bolger might accused Robert Moore of all my no but you know the end of the day it's <hes> h h potential stone taken out with the show of Robert Mona while we've seen some other people <hes> accused news muller of things that definitely aren't true so <hes> I'm not sure where to where to leave this one. Yes exactly I made you've known as Union eight some terrible thing as a society. You put people in prison for the rest of their he lives you. Don't throw them to shocks and that's you know that's what a civilized society. Does I mean of course when terrible paid with anything happen to any family we would want those people to suffer a horrendous death but society has to rise above that I'm not recite you know. This is the penalties way <hes> provide the man is ninety jobs and the rest of these guys to throw into the shops is not a reflection on a civil society. There are characters in a civil society who we touched upon when we interviewed you for empty frames these characters we've been talking about are known from the James Bond Film as Dr no the Doctor No characters characters and there's this concept out there that perhaps the artwork from the Gardner Museum is located in some remote island with this doctor no character swirling his brandy eh and looking at the storm on the Galilee after we spoke to you we continued in email correspondence and even the occasional skype chat about your experience with these Dr No characters and your knowledge of them. That's how we really want to frame this episode. Talk about these people who are either underground. They're extremely wealthy. Maybe they're in the spotlight but they do acquire these stolen pieces of art work simply simply to sit and throw their brandy and look at them. Well I mean that might be a stretching a little follow-through actually accused as people of knowingly purchasing stalwart or not what we can cite with. Authority is the very very wealthy people have been called in possession of stolen ALZ DOT com run down the list quickness Stevensville bug Barron Honey Tastes Giovanni oversaw g boy George Vladimir Approaching Dairy Pasqua. I guess the Atlas you had the decoding because I felt like hung on that. We'll just because I didn't have a desert. Island doesn't mean that I didn't have the doctor now effect. I didn't tried to send it doesn't mean they didn't have brandy metaphorical exactly metaphorical desert island metaphorical brandy. They were sitting actually at a Thanksgiving table swirling their apple CIDER. If you want to say that that's what they were drinking but I think that's the whole point say also can go on shelby antiquities another big thing <hes> shelby wants Leon Levy at non Khashoggi the Bach Kasese. You know now I've come up with the scientific theory about doctor knows. I'll be interested to give that you hear it. We Love Science. Love it right okay right well. It's it's a non-fat long. Fact The authority site roughly they re DI manage to intercept about ten percent of drugs the smuggled into countries like the United States they managed to talk about ten percent. The recoveries countries have stolen our around about five to ten percent. Okay the interception website arms records roughly five ten percent so if you apply that to famous wealthy people ebbing cool in possession of stolen you can come up with around site twenty five thirty nine historically and he studies ten percent the actual figure could be two three the full hundred very wealthy people worldwide who actually of got stolen in that collections and also I would say that vigorous increasing because of the emergence of the billionaire cloths in Eastern Europe the billionaire clubs in Asia particularly China where a lot of Chinese billionaires buying back Chinese <unk> to the West and sometimes looted did you from places in China during the colonial times. I'm looking otherwise dunk terrible provenance as a pretty interesting point. You're making here Paul. Let's talk some specifics Sto- I you mentioned some names Stephen Spielberg. Can we start there. What <hes> what what stolen artwork did? He was in his possession right. Steven Spielberg is the Afficionado an expert on the American. She's Norman Rockwell and nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine. He builds a Norman Rockwell of the <hes> the duty cop for two hundred thousand dollars Judy copper four to auction for around roundabout seventy six thousand dollars or fifty thousand dollars and she sold it on as a data word for three or four times what she paid because that's the normal markup okay so if you go into art gallery and give one million dollars what is from an Ottawa as soon as you gotta rates well two hundred thousand dollars roughly so that's the kind of mock phosphor would f._B._i.. On their website the set picture Russian schoolroom schoolroom as being stolen nineteen seventy-three from an exhibition when it belonged to an optical Jack Sullivan could be pike out by the Insurance Company so now the actual rights to the client team belong to the Insurance Company company allegedly when one of the staff of statements spill bug managed to come across this on the way. I realized that it was Russians scoring by Norman Rockwell that was hanging on the office and the contract to the F._B._i.. Judy arrived said yes. It's the original took it away with them. What then happened was quite interesting? Judy Kotla who had sold it to Stephen Spill out replaced it with another Norman Rockwell for statement spill by Cold Peace Corps in Ethiopia. I've been she to calm the ownership and the rights to Russian schoolroom. A case of Stevensville bug was out of the picture. Eli will find. I was satisfied. What then happened was a court case by Jack Solomon the original owner being paid by the Insurance Company and the judge found in five Judy Kotla and hang it up back Russian schoolroom <hes> and now sits at the National Museum of Illustration in Rhode Island which is robbed by Judy Cutler not husbands so if you want to see that binding that was stolen <hes> Stevensville begun it's in Rhode Island National Museum or illustration now? There's no suggestion Steven Spielberg knew it was stolen on on knew anything of along those lines but it's an occasion west. Someone who's extremely wealthy powerful and famous Ramos is caught in possession of the high value stolen art work that is publicly valuable to say that he stolen had been on the realize on this all quite considerable time I wanna go back just a little bit too with Judy Cutler and how she would have acquired this painting that was stolen you said in nineteen seventy three and then sold to Steven Spielberg in what year was it sold <hes> eighty eight nine thousand nine hundred nine nine hundred sheep goats you an auction in New Orleans in one thousand nine hundred nights St- okay so that's the time line okay this this was stolen in Missouri Story in one thousand nine hundred seventy three reappears in one thousand nine hundred at an auction in New Orleans and sales duty for fifty six seven thousand dollars and she has no idea that this is a stolen painting the done now now now now again. She's an expert on Norman Rockwell. One of the Welsh dating experts would know every painting that he now known and she didn't and she will for a name. She quadrupled her money the following year and so two Stevensville by for two hundred thousand dollars in nine thousand nine hundred nine. Hey Julie Hands on the wall of his office which apparently okay so. I don't want to speculate but it made me think that perhaps this is something that art dealers will do. Have you ever encountered a situation and we can get back to Steven Spielberg in one second but have you ever encountered a situation in your experience where a painting stolen by somebody who plans on buying it later on much later on say fifteen years later in order to triple their profits on it so if you see a painting in your dealer you you contract somebody to steal that we're going to keep it under wraps for fifteen years and then we're going to just buy it at as it's going to pop up at a random auction sometime later and I'm going to buy it for steal and sell it for a crazy profit have you. Is that something that exists or did. I just make that up. No I mean that does exist but let's be clear as she certainly not what happened in accordance. Let's make sure there's no inference on that whatsoever however yes that could possibly happen. Also a daily could say something coming up in an ocean. The analogy stolen films the protective cloak. You're buying auction that outdoors in places like Italy where if you bought punching auction and how receipt of of buying auction you kindly talked with so I think no theory would apply in Italy a wouldn't apply it wouldn't apply align the United States but what I would add selling the painting for three or four times. It's five you is a normal process of buying additional behind chain stalwart painting <hes> or whatever. I don't say you have to remember. We're talking talking about a different era now with you know there's no excuse for due diligence to die with all the electronic resources everyone has. There's no excuse for anyone purchasing any stolen an artwork drawn decide didn't is stolen outside. We should stop that from the first of January two thousand nine teen anyone coke stolen out a bowl off January first two thousand nine chain cannot thumb due diligence ignorance is no excuse even if you directed raiders of the lost Ark Jaws and jaws well having said that you know he's over long distinguished career incredible blockbusters and there's been some good bad and indifferent yeah. Actually I was wondering about that. I wonder like did someone wants. Tell Steven Spielberg he's like hey you know you're kind of Norman. Rockwell of <hes> filmmakers American filmmakers because is in a way Kinda is each movie makes sort of its own slice of Americana. Yes yeah I'm not saying that comes from his background as a child when he grew up in lookout mountain you know I'm the community that he grew up within. Being a community will gone on to achieve there. Is something quite unique that shuicide. Do you think that or do know. That Spielberg has a lot of other paintings that he's purchased. I guess my my point is if he brought the stolen one to the office. How many other ones like paintings are at his house? How many of those could be stolen? Perhaps that's the sixty four thousand dollar question of course and to be honest with you as technology moves forward the excuse of the <unk> because you have to remember each human nightjar the everyone likes about everyone likes to fill. I bought something cheaper than the actual value of it now also. Why do we put these people on pedestals? I come from side no money to becoming billionaires minute there a billionaire they obtain this kind of higher moral authority you know if you get a street kid who comes from the neighborhood. He does well being spoiled. Star Rockstar film stop businessman <hes> he might know catch for the knighthood you start in the ten million dollars. Paso I mean I think what I'd rather give a million dollars to him and hanging on my wall because it's not one hit headlines Old out of the world and a time would have done anyway and also if that billionaire goes to a gallery and expense ten million dollars Casio as he walks out the door and sound me well two million dollars because of the markup the Prophet the gallery once anchor is flat out the easiest way to make a podcast anchor gives you everything then you need in one place for free which you can use right from your computer or even your phone creation tools allow you to record and edit your podcast so it sounds great. They'll distribute your podcast for you so it can be heard everywhere spotify apple apple podcast Google podcasts and many more you can easily make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership so download the anchor APP or go to anchor Dot F._M.. To get started now she sometimes you know sometimes just don't appreciate appreciate that. I mean one of the most famous collected jump who catchy the founder of the Getty Museum Malibu he was a stick up for having a deal eight Goto a gallery a nightside one ten million dollars for design and he'd say. Ah Yes but the trade value million dollars of giving you a million dollars two hundred thousand ten percent on nightside now no no no no but he would keep on my site frayed million dollars but someone else would go into a ten a million dollars would lose eighty percent that strikes to why and there's also the mistake of having a trophy having something someone else has gone you know the facts of an iconic artwork I it's only recently that can be tracked down. It's coach Donald stunk tallies used in the military while don't ask don't tell also INS deniau industry you know Donosti providence of these kinds and tell you so you can turn on the blind die cool found stolen you cite. You didn't know right now did did the F._B._I.. Ever formerly questions Steven Spielberg for his possession session of Russian schoolroom I might have done out of ego but I think probably procedurally I doubt with one of his employees or one of these <hes> one of the people that worked for him. I mean I might want to just the head around the door the office on the show he's hang on. We'll be who knows <hes> but at the end of the Diet you know it some it's only one of many cases I mean that was a chance I mean most of the time the east normally Wendy when people die and their estates are valued <hes> the site something could come off as being stolen and we don't get to find out that to truth like the actors you know I mean Giovanni the Salt Shaker the world famous fashion design when he was murdered the family he's lawyers went through these state and I started to quit stuffing Wilkshire to sell and there was numerous items were found out to being stolen across Europe. That was a big thing there was some other stuff but obviously Mr Bizarre. She wasn't attraction explain how revolt them aware he got them on the other hand. We have the pop singer well pop singer. Oh Boy George he just an icon from London in north London the been stolen from a church in northern Cyprus during the Turkey Turkish Greek sit create wall of nineteen seventy four and he had hanging on the wall in his house when that was a publicity shot property student newspaper someone spotted and said that stolen so he was informed the stolen and obviously took the decision to Hasley hand at a judge in northern Cyprus. I A photo which was mutually beneficial to over two to everyone concerned but if it hadn't paid photograph of Boy George when he's home behind you now interesting yeah <hes> now what happens in the in the case of for Saatchi when <hes> there's several paintings that are found in his <hes> well I guess his late late possession and they're supposed to be auctioned off but if they were stolen to begin with what happens they went back to the victim the victim's family alterly- assurance company if they paid out an insurance describe and then I might have been like I might be sold on or whatever happened on on those things you know <hes> but then you can move out into the <unk> where Dr now at the moment is a senior human human being but there's also I call a doctrine government. That's interesting adoption of government of people like the Nazis obviously because they voted Europe for y'all walks when I would go further and cite site governments across Europe France even Germany Russia Britain die of guard was Lucci during the Second World War I am refused had back because I signed is not the evidence and this and you have to go through how long catalogue of procedures panels and all kinds of things try to recover the White League Lucci Nazi Arwa but not only the Nazis <hes> the Russians Lucci hundreds thousands of artworks Germany when my wedding and of governments you off the wall the over one million pages of some being stolen and what would happen was the monuments men too that credit who recovered a lot of but I would just give him back to governments they five hundred pints here to the Dutch government now amongst those that might have been sixty sixty one hundred tight could offer people oh who would then sent to that death but the Dutch government of hanging Amiga museums. I never not tan the back and he's only when PAT lights wrong. The descendants of people have become quite successful the tonight being able to melt legal challenges with not works have been forced to be handed back there very famous cases where this is getting back to the doctor. No governments is is this something where the doctor no governments have specific agents or soldiers who will carry out specific duties to steal artwork steel art art objects or loot places. Is that their primary instruction. Yes a startling we can go back in history. Hermann Goering was the was the faith in charge of the Nazis but also when Wayne there's war and you invited country one of the first things he's too acid strip the country now the first thing that you got. Can you guess what first thing any concrete army will come for it assets in the country the Gold Goodbye Cook mine you go straight to the Central Bank and you get to go I did he live on everywhere you know during wars the first for is the gold and the next thing you Tilles you go to the national museums and you look at the museum's their words. That's why we see stories of the Second World War where the British government said whole national collection too so lines in Wilde's for safekeeping okay now. What do you know what I mean so mine's now please tell because no one's going into a salt mine because of because climate controlled and it preserves them than anything else that was that was actually really GonNa be my <hes> my my my guess? We have heard that actually yeah. I want to say that the yeah I was stuck on a joke. That's been rolling around in my head like we we're frequently looking for the opportunity to make jokes yeah. I'm in the German style was founding minds. You know yeah and to be honest with you. <hes> this friend of Alice believes hops the God rock could be held. I particular mind yeah now. We've we've had that conversation with certain friend of ours <hes> now before we get back into some gardner stuff I wanted to mention you you mentioned Russia and you mentioned Vladimir Putin earlier in this episode <hes> as potentially being a real life Dr No. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and we know he's listening so and we also know still Robert Kraft's super bowl ring one time so he's a he's a proven you'll thief. He's still writing and also confirmed is ready. Made Poaching is very good friends with own identity Pasca who is the multi billion <hes> Aluminum Don Godfather. There was an aluminum wars in Russia in the nineteen nineties nineties and he emerged as the winner and he's got tens of billions of dollars Rusalka A._B._C.'s company anyway he started when he was developing a marina project in Montenegro for five hundred million dollars with not rothschild else job the way into the harbor that was existing like both and I went out to a not trump on your queen and they went. You're not trump or not trump. I met some of these guys Serbians who called the pay hike who have been all over Europe robbing hot millions tens of millions of dollars high value particularly Jeez huge diamonds you know united to three hundred rights I I've done in the last twenty years so they now with these guys and dairy possible collection of what she's Joe's and things and he gave one of the <hes> what cheese to a European Commissioner Peter Mandelson the Lord Pizza was wearing it several months lights when it went wrong. I took it to Judas in Vienna. Jive it repays I'm when they bombed the number of the watch. They said we've got some bad news for you. This was stolen a high value on robbery. In the south of France for the pay hindsight's should know Mandelson a failing rather queasy code dairy Pasca who employed the most expensive lawyers in Vienna to to just make the whole thing go away and the watchers Heindi back and everyone talks about it. I got this from from Swiss police officer now subsequent to that Derry Pasqua Guy Gladdy me poaching a comprehensive couple of potato or cheese also jewelry for Vladimir Proteins. Go friend the time also the mayor of Moscow he was safe some pay panther stolen jewelry and he was arrested wrestle Sonam relate to jog but it was discovered that he had some college jewelry style of the paint fences so that's the connection with coaching but you've got the one that's in the press with with the rain where he took the rain and just just wanted to cut in real quick here. Is that story from Bob Kraft about Russian President Vladimir Putin apparently stealing his ring anyone that has a privilege of having one understands why the ring is the thing. I keep them in a drawer where I have my cufflinks. They're all in a drawer except for my third one. The original is in Russia with the president of the country. I happened to <hes> be there on a business mission with my friend Sandy Weill we adjust given out rings. I showed sandy my ring and he said whilst you show it to the President I showed it to they put it on and he sort of enjoyed it so kept it on yeah. You say these guys enemies not criticism. Is I come from sort of nothing. The streets streets rule straight kids Derek pass all these people these so-called Odi golfs and we'll point when might become billionaires tonight have a moral reformation. Do the Pink Panthers. Authors exists today yes yet I what I become become quiet and I picking pump cheese like one or two every now and again. Where is it was a period of time that was about a a dozen breezy year and they got so much why I can sort of live off the benefit of that so a group like the pink panthers could be enlisted by someone like Dr No to acquire them some stolen? Art Work is at somewhat accurate yes of course the NSA's actually arose out of Serbian special foresees during during the Balkans war off the wall after old war Special Forces Ah twiddling their thumbs with nothing to and so so of the idea of robbing the high value job stores across Europe and the Middle East and and in some instances the United States of America without securities much Toyota and done robberies from Dubai to Tokyo to last fight he goes you know and so and because of their military training you know the in and out in seconds ninety seconds long time for them. Do you know any of these pink Panther's. You put contact with took the words right out of yes sure I mean there'd be back. I mean there's about two or three hundred of them but I mean I know some of the older ones the ones may not be on the front line the ones that would probably be the handling of the Jews <hes> the the the actual point man <hes> the soldiers would actually go and steal themselves but they're very very very clever. <hes> that was a bench opposite on a opposite jewelers didn't want anyone to sit on Sunday on the day and then cook kinds sign wet climes would sit on the now would sit on the bench pretty good now you sent us. A couple of links thinks about some doctor knows some real life doctor knows and one of them was from the Miami Herald and it was about a Miami lawyer. Can you talk a little bit about that because that's a really interesting story. Sorry what was that A._k._C.'s Aaron the Haney facing the Perot painting. Oh yes I'll honey honey tastes from the teason steel miters multi billionaire. He's probably he would be much law of the factual real life Dr Now than the actual character portrayed in the bond film because the taste and finally a one of the premier premiere jump and finally for hundreds of years <music> multi-billionaire he lived in Switzerland a huge that had one of these had one of the huge collections in the world he then married a woman could common who is Spanish and then when he died she had convinced him to leave about seven thousand paintings to a museum in spine which was going to be dedicated in. They're on now once. They open the museum checks on the collection action becomes public. I'm through that I found numerous stolen artworks and mooching off words I given some by quietly but the pizarro is about an ongoing heights clearly are possibly over a Ovalles. I Value Ardila who sold powered honey tastes stolen Caspar Friedrich which hung in his office in <hes> he's villa in Switzerland from the inside information I had I was the only one pint escaped out to Boston from the garden. The case which was the MIA and not might why via Genoa coach to baron honey tastes in Switzerland so he at at some stage had big for me from the Gaba. That's the only painting manage to Mike. It's the high value stolen <hes> okay so you believe this baron. Heine Thiessen actually had the Gardner Vermeer in his possession. Yes subsequent to that. He's wife commented on children didn't want to do with it and it's alleged that it was caused to another billionaire who was a friend who John Marine S._e._I.. French industrial is billion now. <unk> joe-marie Messier story is that police writing his Paris mansion and discover the fresco in his court. y'All have been looted for Italy that was worth millions billions and billions of dollars and it was at it was tightened back to Italy so and he was he was also the I'm the well known someone who would do dealing or collect high value stolen antiquities. He's new genetic sequence. He's high value stolen like conic works of our and he would know what to do with it and where it went from there. I really wouldn't know what sounds like you're describing. Some sort of syndicate of Doctor knows well. Well Cindy Cook all just frightens yet yeah exactly now at the end of the day coach were college and you come home and a friend of electricity new code him up like can you help with the electric's. If you're a billionaire and you move in billionaire high society your friends will be settled billionaires and they're not what happens. It's got bees around honey pot. The billionaires the hummy Paul the fees are all dealers property Davis <hes> investment bankers all these kinds of trying to fade of the billionaire now. This is actually happened high value upstate up legitimate huge gallery round on capitol around the world goes wanted that clients who they sell millions of dollars about to a nice. I hear I was offered last week stolen hospital a million dollars ten million Boston what to do with Eh billionaires is going to be interested in that so then the data would sell the billionaire they ten million dollars stolen Picasso for a billion dollars but really the data's on. I two two hundred thousand dollars for it so he knew the message has got bogged but also hates the deal. The Art Dealer was Donald Buffet Eva cost-price a not so those deals it was a down. I don't so we have to remember the most high-value Stalin is not just counting time. Teams are always recorded photographs. What about sculptures? What about jewelry what about a piece of silver what what about pace of course today OCCA- pieces of porcelain worth a million dollars started you never seen those? There's no list of every piece of silver that's been stolen so the majority of Stalin are is still not recorded to die the only two categories of of all recorded today accounting's and to certain extent wall cheese. Those are the only two things you know I mean even if you go to sell Renault list you never see pulse in sales. I thought another stuff like that so we can get to both down a why would a billionaire stolen painting but he might not be what one or two billion dollar cabinet in the corner that he's not so my profile. Oh a ten million dollar pine we recently spoke with Shapiro who wrote a pretty cool book based in Boston around the Gardner Heist called the art forger and we got into a discussion about art forgery forgery and I'm curious if you've ever met anybody in your circles who specializes in forging stolen pieces of art so that they can be quote unquote returned while the real thief keeps the original no no no no not no why I've come across in my time as when things have been stolen for example site like the meal yet <hes> forgeries of that have been might and then sold to people as the original stolen. I work at a very Jewish right so some not so you can have these Amina for a hundred thousand dollars base stolen you now you gotta be Sun Castle with it so the person thinks they've got stolen vermeer's but what is a copy and I've given a hundred thousand dollars for a good copy. A gun copies a much better. These come out of China replace is he got twenty years. You know it was very specialized so you would assume it wasn't the cokie if you saw the taking the original one also people who buy stolen are obviously can't cannot get a consensus kite so that means. There's always a possibility that what they're buying is not the original okay so that leads me to another question. Is there an organization that can do some sort of black market authentication of up stolen art like could could a doctor take that to to this organization and say tell me that this is the premier the concert yeah yes of course I mean there are ways. I mean you could find out patch. Throw the Insurance Company. If there's if there's inventory number on the back if they something that says one four seven be an Z. Y.. X. Now if that's on the back of it on the original would have on the back of it if there's like with the stolen the Sea of Galilee there's a very very odd tad in the Shiite of an hour or her Cov- that was repaid many years ago and stitched and wax over it so you know that something on the back of the store with the say Ah Gallery the doesn't get cold very much show. If you had died in front of you you go for that and you go to look to save the hat that tag of course I mean but it's an oxymoron to sign an honest or antiques because of Nitra I try to buy low and sell high and to what extent you know if someone goes into a gallery walk. He's very ran. The gallery owner would call the police unless something you know that it was all over the news or something something now. How about this story that you sent us recently it's about Andrew Shannon out of Dublin? He had previously been jailed for damaging a ten million dollar Monet <hes> but then he recently he got sentenced to a few years for being in possession of a stolen painting. Yes <hes> <hes> Mr Shannon <hes> I think does have a mental issues <hes> and he's announced. I mean he's career. Criminal Staling are an antiques in various ways setting some and actually keeping some hung <hes> and I don't know whether a frustration whether it was out some kind of unstuck seagram. I'm not sure but he went into the National Gallery and lunged Amana kind and tore it <hes> I'm was sentenced for that way while using jowl the police writing these took Weiss paintings of which some of them were found out to obtain stolen so he's the classic classic artsy just a just a thief sorry who specializes in stating off as Living Korea but all of us have some issues he got called an act Zata prison sentence but then some issues which caused damage an iconic yeah and he was just convicted in November twenty eighth two thousand eighteen after a two day trial so this is very recent and he had previously had fifty fifty one convictions so <hes> yeah this is no stranger to crime. No I mean if you create criminals web alleged shoplifters people go into stolen steal things people stay on takes a people career career criminals united full g fifty convictions and some of the some of those might have been some tightening consideration. You know so you know a guy. If we welcome the scientific principle of ten percent you know he's he's convicted of fifty one crimes but probably committee five hundred crimes or maybe even five thousand I mean it's been scientifically talk with fight. You know that the drugs by ten percent of those so now sutton with we use the ten accent revelation weekend cold then you have to mow it right. The doctor knows all the offense. She's by ten now getting back to the Shannon character he he actually took art classes is that is that accurate he he attended art classes so he had some appreciation of the of the art itself. Let's say he's a thief he had due to but yeah the punching a hole in a Manet Monet would would <hes> show anger or frustration or something sounds like it. Yeah I mean you frustration at the system. If out he got ruled gail all you know I mean who knows what was going on in his mind but I mean he he lashed style in that white. Whether Lethal <unk> variety might be overcome with that mean people at extraordinary wise the <unk> sometimes com explained to me. You only have to look reality T._v.. To decide you want US would someone won't do that or even the politicians when they make a mistake you sort of think. What on Earth would I think him? You know I mean when they were doing that so yes. I mean I mean in a state of depression mental illness or whatever yeah I mean he's done this and it's you know each sort of catch in the family so to speak some off related lashing out I mean I much prefer hinge Donnacha to a work of art than join Novocain. Maybe but this this guy's Shannon isn't super her wealthier something like that. It doesn't seem anyway <hes> so if he had committed all those art crimes it didn't really get him anywhere hence the frustration and again I mean you know ninety nine. Guy Probably Ninety eighty percent of criminals who create criminals you know the go to what I get a few thousand dollars wait. I pay bills that go to the next week nothing the next week half to ten thousand dollars I pay bills. I got one holiday and so they career is just just about managing the saying. Is anyone else hundred thousand dollars a year two hundred thousand dollars a year. It's like everyone else paycheck to paycheck yet pike yeah. We'll school to school and the end of dykes you get some great but who are very main site every rate sense and then like buy a house and then like a night out gile several times and I get back to house and then when I get to retirement age like my aside a million dollars trillion billion dollars then that children might take advantage of that two million dollars I might go gypsum up or might get into high crime. So that's the process that yes he got out of every ten career. Criminals only one sizes money and becomes quite what wealth is the other the other nine just the school just go and spend spend spend design live or some of them term turn into liaisons between the criminal world and the the <hes> the law enforcement a. and the owners of the original art work. What do you have on your plate right now? The only current cases that you're working on yeah I mean the size of these teams from Ace than Europe. They're all the usual suspects usual Casey's. There's there's a couple of crises <unk>. Some people tried to still a copy of the Magna Carta like filed in that and then a couple of weeks lights another gang starr will the Portland Tiara which is dominant crusty crown wound which will have millions of dollars <hes> and so the is just is just what's happening at the timer oversea for me. My main focus is on the go the case to try to get some some progress. You know tried to get <hes> trying to we've been stuck in neutral you know the end of the day we need to actually go forward with this and it's not a criticism avenging more as a good friend of mine <hes> but we block homes we D- by a we all you know we got cotton dog but we you know we still remained friends but we have a difference of opinion and he's been in the job. Search is now is any full presidential job. You know okay if we look at that time God museum in Presidential Times he's he's full time and the only other one from the all you know and what has he achieved. Let's be honest about this is the even recently you know at. The end of the war has any more cheese well. I can tell you is achieve bestselling novels on our crime and around for the Secretary of State's office. He hasn't recovered any gall all and the proof of the pudding the job description is he completely filed the thirteen years of doing something so my suggestion is not China personnel change your policy. Well put well put can't argue with you on that. You said that you had a son does the operate on the same on the same accelerator that you operate on yet now. He's he's got the middle trying to be an engineer so <hes> you know he's trying to be an engineer <hes> an information technology engineering. That's that's a fine fine fine line of work tuning trust the I'm involved in you know when we talk about a doctor knows there are also people <hes> I recorded historically at nine Khashoggi the billionaire Saudi Arabian that during the eighties detainees he was friends with President Fernando an emailed them out of the Philippines a Ni- right at the National Museum in Manila on Guy Khashoggi forty impressionist paintings and Khashoggi Dr the lower worldy grace yacht <hes> Paris at the end of the ice. When democracies deposed the the Philippine government came out the paintings Kashogi some back but but refused to give back and last year he died <hes> find a he died in societies last year <hes> but a guy that's another recorded effort recorded fact sort of real life Dr now and I would assume that the people who steal these paintings know about someone like him and they know that there's an outlet there initially would now someone like an antique data or data it was a wasn't on the level that might dating stolen stuff right so that was site a thousand dollars to one hundred thousand dollars right? They're not data Martineau someone in the city who might anything's worth a hundred thousand dollars to a million dollars. Someone else might know someone who's in New York or mighty Milan or a London Paris you deal things from a million dollars outwards and silence. It's a food giant sign was any kind of business but the problem the my essays have getting into that system now e might ten million dollars cash so that sold for twenty five thousand dollars initially because the positive story is taking can walk ten minutes to running off the low run out guy so that's a good nice work or good is work twenty five thousand dollars cad what was to them twenty five so I could go down the local calm bro Dot Com. I need probably give him ten thousand dollars twenty thousand then he would say onto some room for one hundred thousand dollars and that he would say onto someone else who would know a bit lawrence a hang on. I know private customer would give x amount for it so all these facts. The thing is is that the establishment understand why they don't want to reveal these things <hes> I won't sweep the mountain to the carpet because the public realizing the Issa's organized <hes> untalkative as it is yeah. That's a great point. You said that it's really difficult to get them into the system but it made me think that it's probably more difficult to get them out of that system. If you have someone with that amount of wealth and power saying what what do I have to look like. Why would I want some sort of reward for this? This is what I wanted in the first place was this piece of art so getting getting the motivation for somebody to take it off their wall and putting put it back to where they were where it was stolen from I mean that feels like a a very very frustrating and nearly impossible task to undertake yes of course you have to there has to be circumstances where that person would be encouraged. I mean the realized that ways of doing it. I set up a dot. The main site will drop indictment if you assist in this of the case <hes> but those but the people we're talking about billionaires and then not in trouble with law enforcement than <hes> than I got now incentive but also you have to type you have to judge each case on its merits now the garden the case being a unique case should be judged as a unique case and therefore things that should be done the I'll unique would normally be done for example John Signing the reward will be paid. He's a reward price list and there will be a unity. You know it's very rare that happens on rare occasions has happened before the Child Casey's pros and other Casey's approved that it's happened before cool but you have to set rig