14 Episode results for "Sally Davies"

Sally Davies on women in medicine

A Podcast of One's Own with Julia Gillard

40:19 min | 1 year ago

Sally Davies on women in medicine

"Dear listeners I hope you and your family's AH keeping Siphon world during these incredibly challenging time. We don't currently have access to a studio and cut make kissing person but we do want to continue bringing you podcast episodes which share inspiring and uplifting stories of women in leadership while we still have a few podcast episodes to put up which were recorded full way. Oh head determine Teen and Nick said of recording some moving online and I will be making my wonderful guests over video coal while sound quality may not be as high as with the studio recordings. I hope the discussion will be every bit as valuable and enlightening. We've got a fantastic set of guests lined up. Some of whom elite is in the medical world and can offer guidance and wisdom during these difficult moments. I hope you enjoy the special set of PODCASTS. And if you're able to place right and review us on your preferred podcast platform. It really helps us reach more listeners. With message of a more gender equal I'm Julia Gillard and this is a podcast of one's own. I'm offended by the lack of women in positions of leadership and the way those that do make it a traitor to die. I helped laid the Global Institute for Women Slave ship at King's College London headquartered in Virginia Woolf Building in Nineteen Twenty Nine. Virginia said she aspired for women authors to have the space to write in a room of one's own here. I want women leaders too. Have A podcast. Once I my guest today is dying Sally Davies. Who until October last year was the chief medical officer for England the my senior government advisor on health matters? She was the first and only woman to ever hold this raw. She's also a member of the World Health Organization Executive Board and now serves as master of Trinity College at the University. Kind Bridge Sally. Until recent weeks many people would not have thought much about the chief medical officer. Now we find ourselves hanging off their every word and I met a way we are in the world. Can you describe the role of the chief medical officer what it was like to hold that job? Well it was an incredible honor and to bear flagbearer. I think as a woman actually does put more pressure on. You definitely meant that. I was called the Chief. Nanny of the nation which was sexist. But what we have to do is think hard about the public's health and most of the time for me in Britain that was not about the NHL services. It was more about the preventive health health improvement and health protection. And so of course. Lamentin is came onto that. I was the one that with the backup of scientists had to advise government. When we have the NAVA joke poisonings in two thousand nine ten. I was not there for the first wave of the flu. Pandemic I was actually running research the chest but I was there for the third wave when we had even more deaths and drank back from holidays by ministers for a bowler in West Africa to talk about what needed doing where we responding effectively and to talk to the public. Some people call the roll. The nation's doctor so it's complex because it moves around and I'm a hematologist a specialist in sickle. So and then. I became a researcher so I have a broad background but I'm rather pleased that my successor is an infectious disease specialist so he has called the president horrors of covert and he is expert. And can you imagine what the Chief Medical Officer in the U. K? Or INDEED OTHER CHIEF. Medical officers around the world are going through now. Can you give us an insight into what would it be like well? It's very pressured because what you're trying to do is stay on top of the signs on one side. What should we be doing the services on what's going on and the limitations because no one is prepared for something as bad as this and then the pressures which come from ministers because they clearly want sorting out and they want to show they're in control the media which again is pushing and raking over every little thing and the public demands? Put that beside your own desire to get it right and to save lives and it's a very pressured role you refer them to people not saying something like this coming. Did you ever imagine that the world would be where we are today? Well we did a lot of practice. As did you in Australia of pandemic planning but it was always a flu. So that tastes in respiratory born virus and we thought that would standards in good stead. I think it's shown that we didn't practice everything we didn't think through the testing well enough and the other things. We clearly didn't have ready but would anyone have ready. It's a question of how much clamming can you do and we did a lot and we some really good planning song quite proud of what we did but then how fleet of foot can you be when it happens and how anticipate can you be as you watch it develop and what's giving you hope at the moment on one thing that certainly in world war odd claims the scientific and medical communities coming together and focusing on the research and vaccine other things that are going to make a profound difference at all of that. What scaping you spirits up? Well the first thing is of coal some actual nature that we historically have epidemics and pandemics and survival of the fittest as nations and society. We come through. Interestingly here. I am sat in Trinity College and the where the plagues in the mid sixty and hundreds. Which aren't she because we close down as we have done now. Pasta spy but newt of gravity fame is famed for having. Actually it's not quite correct story having discovered gravity during one of the plagues. I think the way people are coming together whether it's about the sun some working together on treatments vaccinations whether it's in the service stories of heroism of nurses doctors on the front line but also the volunteering the support from people in the community for the vulnerable taking medicines. Taking food and everything. So it's how society is coming together and working together whether it's on Sundance or to support others. Isn't that wonderful? The way it's happening and I am loving the means and the little videos and everything on facetime what SAF and zoom I mean are now doing masses of things by zoom. We were cooking supper with our daughter on zoo last night. She was cooking hers in the House. And we were cooking up unfortunately onsumer. You can't lane in enticed they can't particularly better. I'm GonNa take you back now to your ties when you grew up and when you first start to think that you might want to be doctor because I'm sure one of the things that struck people as we've watched the coverage of the pandemic is had. Jane ended idiots most of the experts most of the politicians or their podiums breed. I telling us what's going to happen next all men so as a girl growing up. What made you decide you so I wanna be a doctor. Well actually. I'm an auditory because I didn't know what to do. I got to the age of sixty nine had quite decent exam results. I was better biology. Have I remember my mother saying you? Good biology you quite like people that you do mince father who was a medic. No one else in the family so I talked to him and it seemed a good idea so I went off to do it and actually after the first couple of years and it's on record I found it quite brutalizing. I think in the way that the doctor's now will find it. The people were. We had Russian health system particularly at that time in the mid seventies where I can remember. Oh young woman. For instance. Not being allowed renal dialysis because there was a choice between patients. And she didn't win. Am I thought this was so unfair? And how many things were handled. I was so brutalized I actually gave up for four years and then giving up discovered I had of the -cation and I think what our young doctors are going through. The moment on the front line is very similar. Not Enough ventilators. Who Do you choose seeing? People die in circumstances where you can't hold their hand and their families can't be there I think they're experiencing some of that brutalizing and harrowing things that I saw in the early and mid seventies and I fear many of them will say after it's over. I can't do this. I hope like me I went off. Married diplomat went Madrid as a diplomat's wife. I wasn't the good diplomat's wife but I realized I wanted to do meant and then came back really energize and I hope that if they do give up then come back energized. When they've found themselves again. Do you think we'd be a bit better now at supporting the main to health and well being of air frontline doctors enosis as they go through something like this would they be more understanding about how spirit crushing making. Those choices are literally between who lives in dollars. I think we're more understanding but talking to our younger daughter WHO's a first year doctrine. The front line they are so stretched so rushed that the extra services aren't available so it is a question of kindness in a team and supporting the team. I had that too. It wasn't enough for me. I would rather a gentle soul that stage. I don't know I think we're going to have to do an awful lot of catching up later on and when you look back on those days I mean. Brutalizing is a very strong word. Was that really perspective about the system. Did you think that they was agenda? Element and win offered in your life that if I said to yourself. Jay is something different that happens because I'm a woman. Oh the walls gendered element the was in medical school. I think thirteen women at the year of one hundred ten. I mean looking back very inappropriate thing so when we did surface anatomy I was made to stand on a stool while they drew on my legs where the muscles were. I mean you know and I thought that was normal that stage but you wouldn't allow that now getting back to starting on the walls. The word very few women. The nurses were not used to women. Doctors remember the system. My first ward saying well. You think I'm here to ally was no. I don't and she said you're here to make mighty and it was actually quite difficult environment and I was definitely Baltimore. The pecking order. But I came from a fairly sparky academic background and my father who was a theologian taught me that. I should ask and challenge. In order to get the right answer I mean at the age of six challenging bishops. How do you know God exists and things so? Perhaps I was better prepared. The many women would be in that. I was prepared to challenge and push back but it wasn't easy. Am I do think it was a agenda sexist environment and can you give us an example of one moment of pushing back of challenging? Do Love the image of you as a sixty road. You know at Sunday lunch challenging bishop but in the context of Medical Education or medical practice. Well I mean just silly things like I remember. I did something on one of my early wall drown. Something consultant said. Miss Davis I said in front of the patient and the whole team. I appreciate you think have got this wrong and I'm really sorry but I know that when you're happy with me you call me Sally when you content you call me. Dr Davis Miss Davis not acceptable. And he said Oh. I didn't realize I did that. Said you into the men interesting. It didn't again. Oh so go to resort. Yes I wouldn't be invited to everything because the boys were going for a beer sitcoms. I can't stand beer and I didn't like pubs because of the smoking them so I didn't mind in one sentence but on the other side. We all know that a lot of medical networking used to take place in the pub over a beer so I was being excluded though I think the funniest was my hematologist professor who I was very fumbled. But he would do this long ward round on one morning of the week and at a certain point he would walk into the gents and continued discussing the patients and my friend Anais. She she and I would stand outside. Arms crossed thinking. What are they saying about patients? We're looking off. And I got so fed up I took to propping. Open the door with my foot and continuing the conversation with the professor while he was in the Jen's that stopped it. That's a fantastic. He meach to now. You've said about being a woman that you think your gender means that you bring anything special to the role for example role as chief medical officer beyond the willingness to take a more collaborative approach and perhaps a relative lack of a guy. What did you mean by that? A lot of men who achieve these great offices set out to I mean I do meet young. Men Are not met a young woman. Actually who say to me? I want to be a chief. Medical officer said well. Perhaps you should not only enjoy the journey but recognize that. It's an issue of timing. Who else is around? And you may not make. But they're invested in the office. I wasn't it was only about a year before the post came up when my predecessor said to me sally you'd be a good. Cmo Why didn't you apply? When I go in about a year. And I said why would I want it? We had this very funny discussion. So it wasn't. I was invested in the office or had an EGO. In fact I don't my father and mother as I said. We're academics and they brought me up to believe that you should have a really good debate. Does matter of it's an argument but the debate. Get to the best answer. So I brought this very academic research background in and in fact what my team said was I would get to a conclusion quite quickly. But if they had a better argument I would shift and I was always debating thinking aloud and everything and that isn't an ego driven way of doing it so it was a different style. It was very I set out to make evidence my U. S. P. and to be collaborative and debating and then if a decision needed taking I would take it. So that was kind of different approach. Much more academic approach and just unpacking some of that. I mean the fact that you didn't put yourself forward for the role of chief medical officer that you waited for someone to ask you the fact that your initial reaction was to be taken aback rather than be fantastic bat and the fact that you didn't take a challenge intellectual challenge of debate as an undermining of your ladyship pathology. How gendered do you see that? I mean at the Global Institute for Women's leadership we look at a lot of research about these things and to us in those sorts of things does saying the agenda dynamic based on the research but it had to use it. If you had been you know Bob instead of instead of Sally. Would you had your cat sit on the chief medical officer post ten years earlier? Would you put yourself forward? Would you say on just going to blitz this? I'm going to the base Savo? Would you feigned more offhand or dismissive? If people put account of you two you can guide so you and I know the research that a lot of women are waiting for a tap on the shoulder little princess. This wasn't about that my response was why would I want to do it because actually I had the world's best job I was running one and a quarter billion pounds worth of health research. I loved it and I wasn't sure I actually wanted to do the job. So that's quite different from how it's too much for me and so I had to think myself into. So do I want it? What is it and what what would I do with it? And then to watch other people circle and think about it actually in the end. I went to the Permanent Secretary of the department. Said I've been thinking about this and I have decided to apply because my present role repulsed. The CMO am. I don't respect any of the men who you are too short list. Says I will apply. I will keep the research portfolio. And if you don't appoint me that's fine but I will not report to the new. Cmo I will report directly to you so actually I played it quite. Powerfully was not a that I was waiting to be tapped. I thought through what could I do with it and I thought through who else would get it and how I wanted it and four women who are listening to this podcast and who are now shaking their head going. I could never do something like that. What would you say to them? Was there a little voice in the back of your head? Sighing war. Sally. Don't be so push shield and not gonna like you if you push like that because a lot of women have that voice in the back of their heads. Yes I think over the years. I've come through that so don't let me pretend that this is how I've I've always been quite challenging as talking about me as a young doctor. I've also had my fair share of worries and the Impostor Syndrome but I've learned I believe in the Peter Principle which is that a lot of people ended up appointed to the job born above the warm where they function best as managed everything. I've done so my question to myself is. When does the Peter Principle play out? Can I do the next level and the way you find out? It's by doing it and I probably can. So that's where I come to this fantastic now during your time as chief medical officer. Of course you'd have ended up with the one with the KHURANA virus. But you did during your tenure have to deal with the case response to the atoll rap break in West Africa and you said back then. You were very proud of the volunteers. The doctors the nurses the lab staff the government officials who went out and put themselves at risk to do an amazing job. Can you just talk us through what it was like to be at that time in such a responsible position when a ball breakout and as we know they season incredibly deadly disease. I mean we've all spent a lot of time talking about death rights from nineteen but a baller is truly Deadly disease absolutely well-treated. You might get thirty to forty percent deaths but always an outbreak sit. It starts much higher until you've built the right facilities and got the local staff knowing how to treat the patients and it's scary because it's not that easy to catch. She can't catch it with spiritually wise like covert any bodily secretions and a lot of the early cases always spread through funerals and everything. Which means that. You're getting the heart of a community. How do you conduct your rights? The social fabric of those communities scary because it was going up exponentially. The number of doctors it died in Sierra Leone was horrendous. It's decimated their Health Service. Azziz covert in some countries like Italy and Spain and we are having doctors and this is dying here with co two so the questions were to understand the disease and luckily we had a lot of good Santus. Explain that to me. Understanding how best treated the present chief medical officer. My Success Chris Witty was actually the chief scientific advisor it defeat our aid agency so he and I worked in tandem with him thinking about Sierra Leone. The me thinking about the impact on Britain. And then you get to the clash between science and public pressure. One example was that the son says that to do entry. Screening based on high temperatures is not cost effective so we go to our emergency meetings chaired by the Prime Minister that called Cobra because it stands for Cabinet Office briefing rooms and say cost effective and the prime minister says. But I want to do it. Ashley. I then was able to tease out that the reason he wanted to was. He wanted to show the country and his electrode that he had done everything possible to protect them. I could see the advantage of catching people coming in from west Africa and saying these of the symptoms if they develop ring this number Public Health England. And this is what you do so that we were giving them something. I said. Well if you feel you need to do it to show. You're doing everything. The reason advantage. Are you prepared to pay the bill? And he said yes. I said fine. I have no problem with doing it. Interestingly this time on covert the scientists said it wasn't cost effective and our prime minister. Said all right. We wouldn't do it. I actually think that was the right decision here because so much everywhere that you either walk down and stop aeroplanes and traffic. Or you don't follow but you can't do it through entry screening and we know that now because of all these eysenck dramatic carriers but just teasing out what does say what needs doing. What politicians want an in the moment taking the decisions and flexing round that is quite tough and then talking to the nation about it doing all the media? I still remember after one broadcast my sister saying you look really grumpy and said I was trying to look serious. And she's because counts and she said well look jumpy and I think that was when they really started that and I'll go guidelines of course a lot of the press calling me. The chief nanny which is totally gendered was and that was quite difficult. You know usually I just ignored it or laughed about it. Though the walls of famous type where on the Today programme which is of course are very famous news programme on radio. Four every morning one of the interviewers Nick Robinson instead of waiting till the end of an interview then saying and chief nanny or something said some call you chief. Nanan so angry that he started like that turned around and said. I think you'll being gendered. I think that's unacceptable. I won't have it. There was a whole twitter storm in support of me and he was writing me. A note sexist. I would say you did it without thinking and it was my back against the wall. I challenge my fight back. I mean half frustrating was that I mean they are chief medical officer an incredibly serious job talking about issues that really matter will abol or end up in the United Kingdom deadly disease what is alcohol usage or the misuse of alcohol costing in terms of people's held some lives and people are critiquing like that. I mean how have frustrating is it. Well I did goals Kim Woody. Call a male. Cmo The chief. Man I said I would watch wants I retired. I have not yet seen in cool male successor chief. Nanny and I'm waiting for it because that would then mean it wasn't gendered and do you think fool women in the Medical Profession Women Hamada spa to a public role like that that saying that kind of treatment it puts them off. Or they just shrug and say well. I guess they'll be a bit of that but the job still worth. Do you have a sense of that? I think it does put women off. Because how do you learn to cope with it and you know I have learnt? I've been very well. Trained MEDIA WISE BY THE DEPARTMENT DOT COM staff of fabulous. And they would really everything I did. I was prepared as if it was a five hour exam. What are the elephant traps? How will I sound? How will it come over? And I've learned terrific amount. Thanks to that but if you haven't been through that so that you know okay. I can do this in any way. I am a fighter. It's quite worrying. Are they going to say things like that to me? What will I do? How will I say it so I think it does put off some of the ones who would turn out to be very good with some training and so we need to do more training and in an age like this watching as you get to do now than being in the middle of it so that having that sense of distance which can give you an ability to see it all I mean what do you think are some of the big problems in dealing with a pandemic like this and so much main? The scientific problems though feel free to speak about them. But I've got more on my mind this balance that you've talked about between political decision making in the expert advice and also the communications when people at home for countless hours they can scroll every tweet watch every facebook post and clearly end up with a lot of John King formation as well as hopefully get themselves onto some credible sources including more chief medical officers and other scientific experts. I so it is difficult. Unite both knew this. There's a desire for news. All ministers led by the Prime Minister. Doing five. Pm Conference News Conference every day and actually people around the country logging. In what's fascinating to me is you can see that. Some ministers a lousy at it talking down to us the public or bossy others are too nervous clearly not leaders and it really is sorting them out the door couple. I'm happy they're in their roles but others you think Ooh but the scientists my successor. The chief scientific advisor or deputies are there and being home and giving the advice so the communication is there. I think the media so far doing in Britain a very good job of being supportive but questioning a bit of challenge but most of them are taking the line of look. We can do the looking back later on. This is where we are. How are you GONNA go forwards and recognizing the needs the sense? We have a wonderful institution called the sounds media center. Run Your folks whether you know it but she finds experts to talk to journalists all the time about different things and she's been running conferences for the journalists with expert so that they get the background so when stories come up they know what's going on and when a story comes up she'll find them an expert to quote comment so I think we're getting very responsible reporting in general on looking all across the globe. Of course I looked to the states. Get a lot of interesting things and I really can't not take you up on that how you see the US in comparison with the UK or any other nations response. Well I'm glad we have an nature. I think he's my big. Take home message that care and testing. It's free appoint access because we know that poor people whether they are black and minority ethnic just our own or toxins. Poor are prone to health inequalities. They are more likely to have a bad outcome both in getting the disease in having morbidity and a bigger death rate see you have to have the safety net of the NHS to support them. And what we're now seeing coming out of the states. The African Americans getting the disease more often than than dying at much. Higher rates is tragic and we need to support our people so we don't get those dreadful outcomes. I think the lack of national unity and sons based advice visibly is making it very difficult. Some states and clearly politics is coming in much more. You can an analysis which suggests that the red states will slower coming in with restrictions and look downs than the blue states. I don't know enough about it but I am glad we have an innate absolutely and I think people at this time are all looking for some hope and some ways of getting through. So if you've got a crystal ball that tells us when we'll be out of this we would love to hear your prediction but in the meantime what are you enjoying doing. I've been reliably informed the brig making and jam production happening at your place. Is that right jam? Making and shut me. Yes I've discovered a website called Marquee and they've given a reduction because of covert where you can get the Royal Shakespeare Company. All pro plays so. I'm watching lots of things that I missed and I wish before. I've got the exercise bike to look forward to but a bubble. I'm trying to structure my day so that I am leading a normal day and to talk to our daughters and our family through facetime and zoom and Google. Hang out as much as possible so that actually we're much more contact than we ever were before and that's right with the pressures of being locked down and for our daughter on the front line in the hospital and do you think will come out of this wiser. I'm hoping that we come out of it with a new attitude. Too Flexible working. You know one of the things. We've talked about for a long time. Which would help women's careers and to close many of the gender gaps that there are around work would be for virtual and flexible work to be more embraced. And we're all having a big listen. Had to get that done so I'm hoping we take some of that with us. What are you hyping? Tyke hat of this. Well I hope we do. I think we will. I hope that we will come out recognizing how important health services are. I mean. We shouldn't have people pleading for resources for every day. Care and then we get this on top of it. I hope we come out of it. Kinda to our neighbors tonight. Believe we probably will with much more social cohesion but I also hope we come out of it with not just the digital at home but the digital across our health service. Because that's what I know about if you look at how health services a changing because we can't do face to face and people have pressured. That is the talk of change we've needed for ages and we've given it a big step up. I don't want to lose that and the other area. That's fascinating is. We're managing to aggregate data in the interests of getting better outcomes from coverted where before ridiculously heavy governance and box. Ticking of a little brains was getting in the way. I hope we can keep that. Because actually patients will benefit. The public will benefit and also shown in one of my cmo annual reports. If you keep people healthy than the economy does better. So we can continue this partial unlocking. It's not a full on locking of the aggregating data it will change our lives since like some great things to come out of it now. I'm going to move to act concluding questions. We always ask guests a set of questions and we always start with the fact to respond to so your fact is. According to an analysis of one hundred four countries conducted by the World Health Organization. Roughly seventy percent of the global healthcare workforce is made up of women currently of course there at the front line. Saving patient's lives given half feminist. This workforce is windy. Think we will properly recognize and pie. The contribution of healthcare workers a good question. I think what's important is to look at each group and make sure all the women are getting equity within their groups because on an average we have a lot more women in the lower paid areas. But you're not going to pull them up to the medical levels. The evidence on women is in medicine is on average they are in certain groupings that are lower paid. Is that because women. Is it for other reasons. We need to sort through that and move forward. I think when you take. The biggest feminist workforce nursing one of the things that were as Ms. Why do we see a small number of men coming in but proportionally many more men in the managerial and leadership roles? What can we do to help those women who could do it but I haven't recognized? It comes through because then. I think pay will begin. Sort its way through but those already work on arguing to our government in this country that nurses need to be better paid and I hope the care workers and other people will have a better deal going forwards. I'm in. It must be very difficult as a woman. Be A care worker on zero walls contract particularly if you've got children or other responsibilities at home. I if violence all putting bread on the table and yet doing these other things. We need fair. A society can't come out of covert. Maybe we can rely too far from the embers of covert. I hope so. What's the worst misogyny you've had to face? I think I brush it off so much that I do believe. Noise notice it. I mean I have so often been the only woman in a room so one of the things. I really hate an I've experienced and whenever I talk about it other women recognize it so it's not. It's of Eight misogyny meeting when a woman puts an idea on the table. Oh thank you moving on then. A man puts the same idea on the table. Oh isn't Jimmy Clemmie every woman? I've talked to recognize that one. I actually talk to women about how they should handle that you know that they should come back saying. Oh I'm so glad you picked up on my idea or talking to the chair about it. I've talked to them about how they should share meetings. United says that if if they didn't pick it up and it happens to say oh great Jimmy. Jemima put that on the table earlier there. We have to be aware of that. So it's not one big misogynist event. I'm picking up for you. I'm picking up this pervasive misogyny that affects almost all women. Unless you've got so that they didn't then this I think whoever's listening to this podcast is going to be furiously notting. They're hating agreement at -solutely now if for a moment you had all the power in the world. What would you change for women? One thing we all need to be learning all the time I think I let expression from you. But how do we empower women through education and they need to learn their books? They need to learn their schools. But it's part of that. They need to learn to believe in themselves and that they can do it we can Virginia Wolfe says thought and theory must precede salutary action it. The action is notable in itself than either thought or theory. I think that women need to recognize that evidence should underpin action but the dog gut response is usually the right. One of compassion are moving to support and make things happen. I like that. Thank you very much into ripping to talk to you. What a pleasure. You've been listening to podcasts. Of One zone with Julia. Last from the Cleveland Institute of Women's leadership at King's College London for more information on our work and to sign up for updates visit mclovin institute for Mincy to ship website. This podcast is being produced by Lizzie. Ellen James met with kings online and additional editing by Nick Hilton. If you've liked what you've been listening to these reviewers with your preferred podcast provide. Yeah come back next time for another episode of the podcast of one's own which unique.

Chief Medical Officer Medical officer Sally Davies Britain flu Julia Gillard Prime Minister Trinity College West Africa Virginia scientific advisor Global Institute for Women Sla World Health Organization Exec NHL Nick England Lamentin King's College London researcher
The Morning Briefing: Friday, November 13

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The Morning Briefing: Friday, November 13

"Halloween danny boyle with the briefing from the telegraph. It's friday november the thirteenth. A number tens in a state of flux so dominic cummings is at the beginning of the end of his time in downing street's after he and a close ally lost a power struggle within them. Pretend the prime minister's chief adviser signaled he could be gone by christmas. We've got the inside story from westminster help. Boris johnson's field say carey. Simmons led the vote. And i can recommend our associate editor camilla khomeini's analysis she says as battles rage around the pm. It's no wonder people are asking who really runs the country now. The former chief medical officers given us her first interview since she handed over the job to professor. Chris whissy dame. Sally davies has been talking about why she thinks. The u k wasn't prepared for covid. She claims public health. England told her a corona virus epidemic would never travel this fall. it's just one of a series of damaging allegations. You can read everything she told us. And it's been announced that the yorkshire ripper died in hospital early today. Serial killer pizza sutcliffe tested positive for covid. He was one of britain's most notorious prisoner's having murdered at least thirteen women. Across the north of england in the late seventy s. He was serving a whole life term at eight. P franklin county durham sought cliff was admitted to hospital. Ten days ago for a halt issue. He died overnight a seventy four. We've got the latest details and something lighter. This year's john lewis christmas adverts being released and it features an original song for the first time. Brisa would winner. Celeste wrote the track. It's called give love being released as a charity. Single with the hope could reach number one. We've got the advert for you to watch and see what you think. Just talk to mention some of bits including the latest episode of choppers politics. Podcast featuring piers. Morgan and how crosswords can boost brain. Power cannot try house right. That's the latest from the telegraph. Crystal half you'll second briefing of the day this evening.

Halloween danny boyle dominic cummings camilla khomeini Chris whissy Sally davies yorkshire ripper Boris johnson Simmons westminster carey England franklin county Ten days britain durham john lewis Celeste piers Morgan Crystal
We Are Our Stuff  Sally Davies Portraits of New Yorkers

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53:58 min | Last month

We Are Our Stuff Sally Davies Portraits of New Yorkers

"You're listening to the beach. Photography podcast for over forty years has been the professional source for photography video audio and more for your favorite gear news and reviews visit us at h. Dot com or download the b and h app to your iphone or android device. Now here's your host. Alan white's greetings. Welcome to the beach photography. Podcast today we welcome to guests to talk about sally davies. New book new yorkers the first guest believe it or not is sally davies herself and we're also joined by photographer. Writer and fellow. Be an hr jill waterman. Welcome to sally a gel. Sally davies is a new york city photography if they ever was won her images of the site in east village just uis gotham and her work is appropriately in the permanent collection of museum of the city of new york and the new york city. Nine eleven memorial museum. Our archive was recently acquired by nyu and is now part of the downtown collection of fales. Library sally's photographs have been featured in the new york. Times and the new opposed among others and exhibited at bernard uchi meisel gallery in two thousand fourteen salary. See the citation from the city of new york for ongoing commitment to photographing the lory side and like all grey chronicles of new acceding. She's canadian wouldn't you know it. They go chill. Waterman has joined us on the podcast past years and has recently published insightful interview with sally which wigan referenced. Today jill is a photographer in editor and writer. And she's worked for photo district news and dna explorer and she's the author of the two thousand six book night and low light photography gills photo series. The new year's eve project has documented new year's celebrations around the globe for the past thirty seven years. You know jill. I think you would have gotten it right by now but okay. We'll have to talk a little bit again. Welcome to both of you to the show. Thank you great to have you rate the beer sally. This is a really really neat neat book. That captures a certain spirit. The new city mood of what got a photographer. More known for wandering the streets neighborhoods into the various homes in apartments of the city. And like what. What's the magic word for getting into people's apartments in this new york city. 'cause i've tried going over to strangers. Listen you look interesting. Can i come a photograph. Your apartment and i've never never gotten a positive. I got one but that scared me off a little bit. Anyway you do it. I think being a sixty five year old brawd de it's not quite as intimidating as a young man. But i think after getting my archives in fales library and in the museum within a few days of that it occurred to me that nobody in fifty years who is going to look at any of this stuff has a clue who lived inside these places so it was a combination of that and feeling like i needed a bit of a break from the street work and i just got up that dan said that's it. I'm just gonna do this. And i thought i'll probably have to put an ap be out on facebook or something and see fighting. Get people's but it didn't have to let you know i got. I started with three people that i knew and everybody knew somebody who knew somebody and by the end i had people calling me saying. Can you put my parents in the book. And and did you put the parents in. Yeah that's great. You know this guy. Yeah i noticed from jill's interview. She asked the question at any basically We're taking all comers. Is that true. I mean whoever ascott in yeah. That's great that's great because you don't know what you're turning down. You could find interesting people it turns out their environments kind of boring. But you never know what to expect from people and and that's the bottom line. It's surprised me. Suzy opened up the door with this person's really about well. And also when i first decided to start doing this i did not have a book deal so it was going to be just something i was doing like everything else i just do for myself. And then about maybe ten photos in I was offered the book deal so that that kind of lit a fire under my but a bit. And i had to get focused. But because i didn't really have a say i didn't really have an exact idea of this book so i just thought i don't want my opinion of anything in this at least at the beginning i just wanted to shoot people and shoot shoot. I thought that randomness was true of of new york city can you. How did the publisher. How did the publisher find out about the project. I was included a few years ago in a book by the same publishing company amanite press in the uk. They did a book called masters of street photography and they picked a handful of people from around the world and they picked me. So i had a lovely relationship with down from that and the editor from that book was in new york on some other business and we met and he said you know what he up to these days. Do on this kind of nutty thing shooting total strangers in their living rooms and i had some on my phone so he looked at those and said oh my god. This is great. Let's do a book. Wow yeah i was so lucky in my whole adult life. People have been asking me. When are you gonna do a book. And i always said when somebody else pays for it really good point to everybody self publishing now in that can be thirty. Forty thousand dollars you know. I don't try this hong kind of thing i i. It's not in my snack bracket so. I was really grateful to be able to do that even though you know because cove in it got a little bit. But it got out there nobody's marsh than And real quickly. You mentioned that you didn't want to put any of your opinion in there. And you wanted the randomness of this Do you feel that street. Photography does put your opinion in it. I mean to some people kind of random so you differential well not to belabor this point but i don't really think of myself as a street photographer in the classic sense you know when a grand and those people you know. I'm an art. I'm an artist seminar. I'm a painter You know our photographer looking for a photo. So i go around looking for stuff that i think is what i'm trying to say which is very different from the book which is like. I didn't want to say anything. I just want to shoot you at home in whatever you wanted to wear with all your stuff a story speak for itself something. I'm kind of curious about that again. You your most your photographs. Autism point have been outdoors in the streets called street photography or not and i'm referring to the moral as environmental portraits. Which is exactly what you're doing indoors as well. They really person in their environment in some manner had shooting approach change going from outdoors where there's all sorts of variables to indoors where the parameters are tidied. You got walls of ceiling in a floor and and some furnishings ear. Lot smarter than me. I don't really think in those terms. We're all in trouble now on. You know i had the idea. And i went to the first person's house and i brought you know just brought some whites. I thought well. Obviously i'm going to have to light this out and it was a disaster was getting nervous and i was getting nervous and they were. The whole mojo was just over in fact i might have. I can't remember. But i might have even gone back and shot them a second time. They were gracious enough to let me do that. You're really flying by the pants to do this. This was all just all new and you just say okay. Let's see what happens here this percent. Oh okay talk about challenges okay. That's good yeah. So then. I realized i think i just need a flash so i i. I've never used a flash before. I'm not a flash person. So i bought flash on my camera and i figured that out and that was it every problem solved. I just bounced it off the ceiling everywhere. I went and got myself a really wide lens to get as much information as i could. And i'm always happy and sent into getting the book Deal change anything other than maybe give you a little. You know like you said little fire under your but did you did did it. Did you think differently at that point. Did you say all right now. I have to be a little more serious about this or did any kind of aspect of your Change no one serious if you put that in front of me. I'm not doing. You're doing the wrong thing. Smart motto attitude on the only thing about the book was as i told. A book contains a couple three years. Especially something like this where you have so much to. And they really cut that short. They wanted to hit the first available holiday sales season. So i basically did two years of shooting. In six months. I ended the work in and about maybe a week later cova hit so at first i was like you know what a drag you know. I did all the staff But in the end it turned out to be better because even though they put it on the back burner because of cova did last august a Got it out dusted off and said we're going to do this so had i not handed in that rush. It would never have happened because nobody who's gonna let me in their house cove. It drew so good point. If i'm not mistaken book. Sales have gone up a lot over code. I know i personally have started purchasing certain books. The good books not just regular readers but more are kind of books. Because the fact that i suddenly had time to really appreciate him so i have about about four or five books in the past year that i probably wouldn't have purchased otherwise i don't know my book Did very well. Nobody was more surprised than me. It sold out in like three or four days. Yeah i only two hundred copies. That's predictable here. Bought the other two allen is supposed to be selling them in a profit and what was the run. The first round was three thousand very small. Now we just did another run of six thousand. Congratulations for sale in august and hopefully as retail starts to hopefully get wound up again for the holiday seasons while sal. That's great yeah. I mean i i get the idea that you know you wanted as simple as possible. The gear the setup simple and i totally understand this idea of not setting up lights and how that can mess with people but but what about like. How long did you stay there. But what we your conversations like. I mean did you try to. Do you engage people or was it really like you. Don't get out and and and did you direct people at all nap shoes. I i did a little tap dance. My first off lightened up the atmosphere looking around for ten minutes. I left okay. Then there was also the dog which is a great little conversation starter. Yes my dog comes with me everywhere and she sat there in inner bag. You know waited. Now i would say the most i i was anywhere was maybe a half an hour. And the quickest was probably five minutes. Well the thing is is that. I was in touch these people with emails because i they had to fill out the qa and we had to go back and forth. I get that all figured out. So by the time i arrived. You know we kind of had a bit of a friendship going already. You're telling total stranger your life story. It kind of breaks the ice you know but like i said with the flash and the little spaces and that wide lands. There wasn't really that much chance involved. I just sat down and last number one direction was don't smile but did you have to kind of work. People a bit for for the image. You wanted to take several takes. I mean did you did you. Did you offer kind of direction in terms of their expression and the interaction. I asked them i if were they wanted to sit and i could make that work. I did that. I wanted them to be as much control as possible. And some people just didn't they wanted me to tell them and that was fine and i would. Just sit them down and say okay. Sit there. don't move and don't smile. But you know the first few i i didn't Didn't tell them that. And let me tell you. I got home and i thought home i. This is like the book of fricken smiles. Like i can't have this. You think coupler nice hundred pretty funny you can back up mill you know and trying to get people to not smile for a photo is some harder than you think people. Just sit in front of the camera and they smile. It's like this problem of saying i was looking through Looking for smiles and one that i noticed was joyce pomeroy schwartz is the fact that she was Sort of more of a public figure already think. made her Less reticent about not smiling on. that's a good question. Jill there was joys. And there's another woman named jackie ferrara. And i just wanna go on record that both of those ladies are ninety and i you know i thought well this is gonna be different. I went there and again. I've never been to any of these people's places. So i go there. And i thought you know a nurse's aid or somebody who's gonna come to the door. Oh my god. They both just pounded up to the door. They both live by themselves. In homes they've lived in their whole lives in one of them was like. Oh my god a dinner party in here last night. There was fifty. People don't even know who they are. You know the staff makes dinner leave. I dunno sit so it was incredible to meet these of and both of those ladies smiled and i sell. They could do whatever they wanted. Your nine eat and you're having a party with fifty people you don't know you can do whatever the hell you want my photo behind. There's one image though i have to. I mean the several we want to ask about. Maybe in the second half of the show but while we're here talking about getting people set up and where they are. There was a shot of two women. One who's in the bathtub Now i assume that she wasn't there or maybe she was. When you showed up a hub that come about. Thank you for answering for asking that question. John because i was too and that was one years. Okay yes they look like a couple it well. First of all are a great couple and you know again. I never been to their apartment. I got there. And i've known i kind of know these women and they're both fascinating interesting. People and i got to their apartment. And i just in the first like ten seconds sweep. I couldn't see anything in there. That really i thought was going to really represent how great they were. And just as i was trying to figure out what we're gonna do the woman in the bathtub. Lois said why. Don't we go in the bathroom on. I said great. Let's go in the bathroom. And then she said what got me to get in the top. And i said yeah i get the quick thing again. We were done and minutes So great when people are willing to collaborate and to yeah. I really like how you kept in the frame in the final crop of the. I don't know if you cropped images at all but their mail that sitting over on the desk i think that just opens up you know yes. The experience completely to to get a little hint of the rest of their world. You know yeah. I definitely did that on purpose. Because you know the oddity of being in the bathroom there wasn't really that much showing who they were. And i wanted something to tell you that they were at home. Yes did you crop the pictures. Very much The the crops are so decisive When i was looking for a top shot for the article that i wrote. I mean it was so hard to find anything that we could crop not. I'm not a big cropper. Honestly i can't really remember. I don't think in that with the woman in the bathtub. That i did crop that may not like ultimately really lazy. I'm out. That's where i do all my work. I don't wanna come home and sit in front of my computer. You know for six hours like further on that idea. I only took maybe for five or six photos at anybody's place. Some people go and they you know they come home with fifty photos or a hundred photos and that's just not me. It's like you get it or you know. You know it for me. And i knew when i got the same. When you're working in the street or another look in other. Nelson's i take even in the street goto gotcha simple question may but what did you. What did you learn from this project. I mean or or learn that you didn't know perhaps not necessarily about photography or maybe about photography would just in general about new yorkers and in life and art and photography anything particular. It wasn't so much a learning process as it was a an affirmation of what i already know. And that was why i enjoy doing it so much and truthfully i could do this until i died and i would never get sick of it. We pool our incredible. You know from the poorest to the most wealthy and everybody's amazing and everybody loves their stuff and their stuff tells their story any even if it's a minimalist whose lack of stuff tells their story. Yeah and did you feel that. The space is matched the people or at least the expectations that you had for their spaces. First of all. I hate to keep saying no to your questions but i had no expectations because i had never been to the people's homes so it really was just like well not not i mean he must have for example michael musto. I'll just think of a few people. I mean i don't know i can in the in my head at least draw some kind of image of what i think is house might look like and i. I'm just curious if maybe with somebody who you knew already or was well known and you might have had an idea or a thought anyway. Now no i really. I really worked hard on not getting that going in my head because you know no matter what you get in your head it's never gonna be what's really there and that's going to throw you off when you arrive. Sleep will wait. This isn't what i thought. This is going to be pretty good. Yeah that's a very interesting point that you bring up that i think is something that i got a long time ago also I freelance for awhile. And it's i think it's automatic when you get an assignment or when you're going someplace you have even to travel or just for a day shoot just for the heck of it. You have these images in your head. What you think is gonna be. You start mentally preparing yourself for what you're going to find when you get what you've never been and it seldom the case And i think it's really important to be able to keep yourself extremely open and don't try to keep preconceptions down. I think it's important to keep a little bit of preconception because you have to have some kind of guidance like when you walk in there what you're gonna do have some kind of a plan but try not to preconceived too much about what to expect when you're there because it's going to throw you off and you have to be totally fresh in oakland. You walk into say okay. What's hearing what's gonna work rather than for his dig out okay. Well this here this is in here. This isn't happening. Just don't even go there. It's it's important thing. Now i I had no. I can't stress this enough. I had absolutely no clue you know like for example i think a couple of good examples the fellow who has the coffins in his room. Only one you're not gonna expect that and the funny part about that fellow. He was the nicest guys. Legally blind to his apartment was so clean. You could have eaten off the floor and he wanted me to shoot him in front of his jack daniels swag collection in the kitchen. So i was going to do that. Well this'll be a good photo. And then as i was leaving i looked in the living room to sign a coffin. Wow this is the one eats. All tricked out is. He's sitting on the back opens in. It's the back of the sofa and there was another little one that when you opened it. It was like an elvis far on lemay and lit up and i was like. Let's let's shut that that's a whole point out today And then there was the woman. Marina press in the pink. The pink thing. I arrived at her house. And i actually. She's one of the few people that i knew and she answered the door in that vintage. Dior whatever it is beautiful saying and she had painted her whole living room pink for the photo. Wow yeah i know and it's like well you deserve everything you get from this. You know for that who could not love. That didn't expect that. Either i mean. Did you expect. Did you expect the guy with the colonel sanders fireplace. I mean who could expect these kinds of places even now and you know. He was a referral. I i know a lot of people in the movie business. That work in the movie business. An art director that i know said you know you should contact this guy steven. He's super nice that he's got a great apartment. That was it all she sell. So you know what everybody thinks department. What does that even you know. So i he's like yeah. Sure god i walked in that apartment. I started laughing. I was like. Let's just do a whole book on you and your apartment. That was the one who should a see the other rooms. I was like oh my god. I have to make a decision here and get out of here before. I'm sucked into the amazingness of this guy's house and i never leave. There's a photo of you as well included. No yes okay An zooming that your apartment. Yes pretty awesome. And who took the photo. I did okay and any thoughts on why you wanted. Include yourself in. How many takes did you tell yourself not to smile. And i did tell myself not to smile and tell you. It's not easy as even harder for yourself but you know. My dog is in that photo to so i'm looking at it. Got the thing. Shut up on the tripod which i never use. And i've got a remote you know clicker. And every time i was i looked okay. My dog was like you know looking the other way. So i probably took about ten or twelve of those to get one that was useful when in the series. Did you do that. Shot towards the beginning of the end. The middle of towards the angel-. I put it off. Like i was like god. Do i really want to be in this book. You know what i kind of did i felt like i was. I'm a new yorker. I'm like one of the people in the book. We're all the same okay. We are going to take a short break and we come back. War with sally davies. State tune we hope. You're enjoying this edition of the b and h photography. Podcast the best way to support the show is by subscribing on apple. Podcast google podcast. Spotify or wherever. You get your podcasts for links to gear and more information on today's guests check out the show notes in your podcast app or visit our homepage on the beach explorer website and joined the bsn photography podcast facebook group. And now back to the show. Okay we are back sally. I have a question for we. Also make a comment. I before start. I'm going through your instagram account. Here and there's one photograph that you have that is just so powerful and it's kind of different from the other pictures. You have a photograph taken out a window. I don't know if it's from your apartment wherever but you're overlooking the rooftop of the house across the street the building across the street and it's snow covered and as a wheelchair in the middle of the roof and it is hauntingly beautiful and powerful in the composition is amazing. The colors amazing. But i keep staring at that picture. And there's a lot of really good photography this one just knocks me out and i don't know why but it's a powerful picture it really is and that said segue into originally started talking about you. Some interesting photographs of storefronts in new york city At dusk and i actually spent a lot of time over the years photographing storefronts in the city in the outer boroughs. And what's amazing about him is that they're so one of a kind and original and the period pieces in they take the they are the graphic design expressions of different times and now everything is all chain stores and every blocked pretty melissa same but these are as interesting as individual people. But then you take it a step. Further and many of these storefronts have interesting automobiles in front of them. Which have their own story going on. And when you start seeing three four five six of those going on becomes a very powerful series a. How far do you carry. That is because to me. That's a book by itself. These cars and these storefronts in digits. Great yeah. I would like to do a book of my cars. I love carse. You know there's not that many vintage cars in new york city. So when i see one i grab it but when you're not seeing. They're pretty unique. There are some interesting automobiles floating around it. Down and downtown. Yeah well we have to go out together. Maybe more I'm particularly interested in vintage car. That's a mess like somebody bought it in. Yeah they're gonna fix it up but they haven't because they don't have any money it's just gonna sit there. You know what i mean. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah the red tape over the tail license. Because the taylor's tape on same thing. There's your story a lot and there's oh my god you just stand on the corner of you and you know so lot you missed it comes another one like it's it's kind of makes me feel guilty out there shooting. Those cars is not that much fun anymore. So many. it's like fishing a barrel. Yeah you know the poorer neighborhoods which i troll. I have a bicycle up there too. And i bike around. You might find those old cars that are just like the guy can afford to collect them but he can't really afford to fix the So you'll have a front yard down in the barrio of three or four old crazy cars. You know that's my thing. Yup yup and do you. Is there another project in the works. In that sense. I mean have you. You still kind of caught up in this or are you thinking about the next book Epic i've never done. What are this was a life changing. I just take so long. You know now i have some things i'd like to do book. I'd like to do a book on the cars. I'd like to do just a block on my street night stuff. I have so much of that work. You know what about the portraits of the californians that you did in your most recent trip out there. Yeah i was just gonna say that i. I don't really feel like i'm done with the people at home. I feel like. I've just scratched the surface. The truth of it is i could probably do a book on just my building little on my block or the city this just you know if you can take a good photo you've got yourself interesting story especially in the city so i was just so to now a and i shot about sixteen or seventeen people at home out there and i brought those home with me and i'm gonna hopefully. I'm gonna do a book of that will be the same thing but people in kelly here and i just i mean you mentioned that your painter also and an artist of course Did photography come later in your career development or was that always there. I always took photos. My father gave me a camera when i was about fourteen and When i went back to school. I you know it was a long time ago was when i go to school. Eighty something eighty one or eighty to eighty one. I think it never occurred to me that i could be in photographer. That's that's the real thing is just something that i did nothing. Why not well now. I know that it's so that was just a really fun thing for me. And i i just kinda secretly took pictures all the time and the great thing about being so naive is that nobody cared what i was doing. In that regard even at school. I took farro as a minor but nobody took me seriously was photography so i got to. I wanted nobody was looking at me and going what she doing. Is that any good or is it not good so yes. I guess to answer your question. I've always take that free. Space is very important. I mean i see it in in in these conversations that we have with other artists and photographers. And i mean even thinking about his own podcast sometimes just having no is on you a little bit of freedom to do. What you want is the way interesting. Things are absolutely a must start to have an agenda. You know as soon as you're showing and people are judging your work in starts to starts to get in there from accused you. Are you familiar. I'm sure you're familiar with but do you know the work of saul later and allieu. We i mean thinking about painting as well as the east village in his work and cars for that matter to yeah interesting. Beautiful beautiful things by him. I'm one of my regrets. And i don't have many but then i never introduce myself to him and got to know before he passed away right. Did you bump into on the street i mean. Would you recognize them if you did okay. Yeah 'cause i imagine you guys you guys probably walk same blocks a few times they can pick no or is your cool I actually have a question about one particular variety of few photos. And and if you don't mind ellen again. Jill jump in anytime. But i wanted to ask about a couple of images in the book again The first one is a woman with her dog in her lap. And i'm just crazy about her kitchen. Her refrigerator magnets And i imagine. I don't know you can tell me. Did she want to sit in. That spot was at her choice. Or did you just see you know that that refrigerator filled with magnets and said it has to be in. That's one of my favorite photos in the book. Just saying her and her friend live in apartment. The entire apartment is probably two hundred and fifty square feet. And they've lived there since nineteen seventy one and it's not so there wasn't a lot of places to sit her. Her partner is not well and takes up the living room space. Which is you know nine by eight feet. So there was no choice. It was like that's it. It's just and i walked in. I've been in that apartment before. She's my neighbor her. I've been in that apartment before. But this time she had taken things down to clean and she had taken the last supper down and put it on. The table was like oh. Let me put that back up hanging like eight feet up by the ceiling to right and i'm like no no no just yes for the and sitter match your ad. She was very nervous. You know she's a bit off the grid person and she did this as a favourite of me. I think of most actually looking at it in detail. There's a box of and maybe food. I don't know what has says. I give hope underneath the the image of the last supper and and obviously or other religious images but it the along with the the refrigerator magnets and the colors in the in the fake fruit is just perfect. Yeah well it's the fourteenth street extravaganza totally right. I want to add one thing to your fridge. Magnet a thing the whole kitchen. I don't know if any of you remember this or have lived here long enough. but back. In their old days it was very common to find metal kitchen cabinets. Porcelain porcelain enamel now that with a lot of them. Did you what anyway. So if that's what you can't see is the rest of. The kitchen is covered in magnum. And that was like i shot her early on in the project and was before i got that eighteen millimetres lands and i thought how you know just to get that whole kitchen shot would have been something but i couldn't do and speaking in the lens. What was your your setup what What camera will lend. Did you use a tripod. might not know. I try pods are not us. I hate tripods. I don't use them ever anywhere for anything. So i had a. I shoo sony all the time. I have an eighty seven or three. I don't remember what my initial anyway. Maybe a two point eight or something lands. But i quickly realized that that was not going to work because i really wanted to get the people's stuff in and some of these apartments for so small that i couldn't get back far enough from the person even right to get so i just went out and bought got that abundance. Eighteen millimetres ice will see as long as you're holding. That especially is ice. Those are well corrected as long as you're holding it straight ahead. There's not much in. The way of distortions is far as straight lines. It's a well corrected lens in that sense so that's pretty much choice. I thought you'd be at least twenty four but eighteen would make sense for that really really would just don't wanna stick anybody's hid in the corner of the frame. That's all correct. I find it interesting that you didn't use a tripod I i like the flexibility of networking with the try. Also like the fact that when you're on a tripod you could walkway comeback and still there and in particular when photographing people My experience again is always been an this being photographed to that. When the person the photographers behind the camera looking at it kind of makes a little bit more impersonal. Whereas if you're on a tripod you maintain a dialog individual eye contact with the person you photographing zada consideration for you at all or is it just not the way you want to work. Just not the way. I want to work. I don't first of all. I'm you're schlepping all over the city with the dog in a bag and my equipment in another bag. I didn't want to have to schlep a tripod with me. And that router required setting up detroit Putting my camera on it getting the flash on it. You know what i mean. Just the moment is lost already. Keep in mind that some of these places like the the guy gerald at the chelsea hotel photo. I took that photo. Three minutes left k. I walked in all my god. What the get this place. There wasn't a lot of version there. So's kind of you know. Either gonna be this or that. I said gerald go over there. He assumed his position. I took a photo in last really. I think i took two shots in their room. So had i have had to just futz around with stuff. It just yeah. We'll just thought if you have the dog with you all the time if you get an elastic chinstrap and you put a quarter inch thread on the top of it. You could use the dogs. Hannah tripod just hold the dog in your lap. And it's just. I'm just thinking out loud and you've got the dog with your already. It's just a matter of the chinstrap in puerto thread to this little thing and did that thing kind of attitude. I think you mentioned this already but when you were working with people who were. Let's say for example. Laurie anderson You know or people who were of some renown who are more familiar with photo shoots and and maybe expected a longer shoot did you. Did you give them the same treatment. Kind of in and out or did you have an even just for your own sake of of wanting to enjoy being with them and so up some of their their style. Now no same thing of all the you know. There's not a lot of famous people in this. There's a few couple. Maybe i promised them that. I would be in and out in ten minutes and i really believe that was part of the reason that they said. Sure mixon's i was like. I promise all you need is this a and i will be in and out yup and and like in the case of laurie in her apartment is so gigantic. It was a little harder to tell a story of her. You know like when you have a little room full of personal things. There's your shot when you get into this. Big gargantuan space. It's like we'll what. Where am i gonna put this person. You know so that the viewer is getting something here. And laurie was really funny. You know we both quickly decided. She was very busy so i really had to hurry up. You know like. I said okay. I looked around. I said you sit on that couch. And she called her dog will and they sat there. An i just about to take the picture and she jumped up and sit all wait a second way and she ran out of the frame and ran back with that stuffed beaver. That is sitting on the arm of the coach. And i'm like okay but you know what in hindsight i mean. I think we were both kind of the same vibe. Like she wanted something personal in there and so that was it. I have no idea why that's what she picked you. Go having been in that space before. I think you picked a good location. That is a large open living room. And it's like a burgundy theory drapes like used to have in the old movie theaters. We forbid they have these giant drapes that pull aside and then the screens behind. That's kinda like with those windows are like those windows are like twenty feet tall. And i'll matthew drapes in front of it's a perfect place in the works real. Well it's the big reveal. And i think that was sort of on my mind that i think the viewer feels like the curtain has been pulled back even if just symbolically or getting to see this person So there are several portraits. Where where the people in their apartments have their pets with them. And you brought your dog with you. Was there ever any Any interaction between the dog in the end the people's Coetzer not by dog sits in her bag until she's told she can join the party so she just sat there and watched and the other dogs are whatever. We're all will behave. Yeah i mean i. You're right joel. That could have gone another way but it did. Thank god ask about a couple other people in in their well known. I suppose outside of new york or my world but Suzanne maluku's was a former colleague and friend of mine. And then a friend of yours which is great to see people that you know in a book and also delfin blue. I don't know if people know who she is but she's a great. Dj here in the city We she a friend and was that photo included in the book. I'm not really sure. Because i saw it on your instagram ago. Yes stealthy is definitely in the book out for in there who she somebody you knew or was that one of the twins witnesses duffy. Neier not really good friends. But we're certainly friendly and we have a lot of friends in common But when i was editing the book there were several people who were. Dj's and you know they were all amazing so it was difficult to pick. But i ended up picking dalcin Because the other ones were all men and kind of like the idea that she was not a man who then can we talk about the editing. A little bit. I mean. I know they you shot. I think it was like one hundred. Twenty five images and seventy two were in the book and how much of the final cut was yours. And how did you go back. And forth with the editors editing. Everyone's least favorite thing of course supposed to cut up people you like and photos. Thank you for saying that you know when when the huge quickly how this started the person who signed me up to the book deal was the person who had me in that other book and he was the person his name is jason hook and he is a person who really loves. my work. Got what i was doing and was excited about the project. Him and i had done a lot of talking back and forth. Who to you know what we were going to do. And then he quit not me but he quit the company all police. I just start to get agitated thinking about it. So oh sudden my you know my my person was gone and kovin heads and then they pulled it out and they assign me to this. You know editor that. I didn't know they didn't know me. Or what i was trying to do. It was stressful. So i i had probably. I had the most input into the finals. You know about we work together. I mean you know they would come back and go look six people in the bathtub. We saw fourteen people to catch it. It's a visual book. And you have to do that. It has to work but you mentioned about the fact that there were several. Dj's and you had to pick one so it even extended to people's occupations in things like that it didn't really except in the case of the dj's onto really appoint the in the case of the dj's again. I've never been to any of these people's department so you walk into these apartments and they were all people who had had apartments for forty years here. They were all like little. Railroads were small apartments and they each. Dj's apartment was sort of identical just wall to wall records like a person who didn't understand. Dj's might say they were hoarders word. It was just as wife went on. The furniture. got chalked. 'cause they needed another wall for records and nobody who's out of these rent-controlled apartments which was part of the thing of the book. And i you know. I hope the reader kinda gets are and it's why we're still here if we didn't have those kinds of apartments we wouldn't be here anymore yet. There's there are some some Portrait in sort of newer cleaner spaces. And i wondered do those spaces resonate as much with you or did it become more about the person in those sort of clean contemporary spaces. I was grateful for every different kind of space. When i got in it. You know because this is a book about new yorkers and it can't just be all people like me or you you we had to show. I tried to show people in different neighborhoods people of different ages people in different income groups. You know and some people not very many as you can tell from the book but not want people minimally here even people that are wealthy you know. They're surrounded with stuff just more expensive stuff and quite often smaller things to you. Don't collect large objects. Subject had eight thousand pez dispensers behind birthday which she again. You can't tell from that Photo but she collected everything and the saying about her was it. Was you if you if. I told you what she did. You go my god. There's a hoarder but actually off. Every single thing in that apartment had a place and it was dust. Free like you went into the bathroom. She said on your you know. Look in the bathroom. Maybe you wanna go and shoot me in there. I pulled the shower curtain back in there. Was this beautiful collection of vintage toys shrink wrapped in plastic on the wall inside the shower. Wow you know like this is a story here. This is how people. I love to spend a few hours inside that person's head just to know what's going on in it because that sounds fascinating quite honestly he knows thing is is it. I totally got her. Yeah so. I'm not sure what that says about me. Shrink crowd plastic things hanging up inside the shower. Why wouldn't there be like it's perfect. Think of that is right. Yeah all her stuff was vintage. A lot of those shrink wrap toys were from the sixties. Says she had really. It was like a little time capsule in their collection. You know. I only got so much in the frame. Those shelves up about five more shelves and the past collections. Get very elaborate. Like there's one of all the president's yeah like just like that. So is your you mentioned. You talked about rent-controlled apartments and people who've been in their spaces for a long time and and reading some of the comments we didn't we didn't talk much about this aspect of the book but people you know they tell their version of their story a little bit. And and and there's there's text and commentary in the book And some of it seemed to go along the lines of you know. New york is great but it used to be better. i mean. is that something. That was a thread that worked his way through the book. It intentionally or how did just come out based on the people you're speaking with nothing was intentional. New and i mean. Do you feel the book. I mean looking back now. Does it represent new york to you. Do you feel like you got to cross. Can you wanted no of course not my man. I could have put a thousand people at that could have been the almanac of new yorkers if they would let me because it just kept morphing as as i went along and finally You know i was like oh really. You're only gonna use seventy two of these cagney. Stop now off now. I think it's layered and you can connect the dots yourself. But i mean people who i photograph to hata rent controlled apartment who obviously had that apartment for forty years or more so. I think anybody who's already who's had an apartment and still here. They're going to have a comment about the old days in my parents did i do in. Young people can't stand listening to me talk. I'm always like oh my gosh days i would never happened or you know i remember joe at the coroner like showing up so it's inevitable that i think those people would remember fondly the old days things change your life changes and it's really difficult to stay relevant even if you're not making something are in a career just on the planet you know it's hard. It's hard to keep plugged in for your whole life as things change so radically while the other thing is that there's so much change on the outside that people can control their interior. And you know it's sort of a consistency of what is around them. That's a good point for me. The most successful photos on the ones that make me the happiest. And that i think really are honest. Are the ones where the people just become another thing in the in the collection of stuff in the photo way our stuff. You know you okay. That is the wrap of another show a jill. We'd like to thank you for joining us today as our guest interviewer again. Nice to have you back on our show Anything you wanna plug any projects. You're working on anything coming up. You thanks allen Well there's an explorer story about sally's work That will be published in conjunction with this podcast It's a so People should look out for that good points. Good points okay. Very good and again. Great having you on the show again. We'll have to. We'll have to do this again sometime. Eight alley websites instagram. If people want to catch up more of your work a where can they go to probably nice site sally. Davies photo dot com. There's links on there to my social media places also and you have an instagram account. I'd do sally davies photo. Okay and also a new yorkers which is published by amanite crass the united kingdom catch that book also and all of this information will be on our show notes. So so if you didn't have a pencil handy to jodl down it'll be on the show notes your willingness it and if you enjoy listening to the beach photography podcast. You can let our boss know how much you love it. By subscribing to our show all you have to do is go to spotify or review. Snag your favorite podcasts. And type in b. s. h. Photography podcast hit enter and boom. You'll never miss another episode and if you already subscriber take a moment. Leave a nice comment. The boss reads this stuff to it all adds up and you could always find is on the beach explore website in on the h. Photography podcast facebook page. All of that said my name is alan whites and on behalf of john harris and jason tables. Thank you so much for tuning in to jay.

sally davies new york city sally jill new york jill waterman Nine eleven memorial museum bernard uchi meisel gallery cova brawd de fales library amanite press joyce pomeroy schwartz jackie ferrara Alan white east village Waterman nyu
245. Women in Medicine with Jo Brand and guests Angela Saini and Dame Sally Davies

The Guilty Feminist

1:12:55 hr | 6 months ago

245. Women in Medicine with Jo Brand and guests Angela Saini and Dame Sally Davies

"I am a feminist bought. I'm quite glad. International women's day is only a day because frankly it's really tense. An i'm exhausted already. Idaho men do it all the time. How do they have all of the other days and sleep. I'm a feminist bumps. At when i called my garage to my car in for service on the guy on the other end of the line could be said. I didn't correct him. You gotta get better a railfreight mind. You'll get better service until take what you're saying more seriously. I'm a feminist. Last night i had a bridge attended. It's a sin crossover sec stream and it wasn't. That dream wasn't feminist. I am it wasn't and i'm a feminist And i didn't say anything at a charity event when a very his blood stuck his tongue in my mouth. Because i didn't want to cool a us a big charity event. That's the way thinks nez but it was. It was quite a few years ago. And i'm really walls told because he said hey. Give me two hundred quit to the charity. It can just give me a kiss on the cheek. And then he just pulled my face rounds and went lifts on it was really discussing. There were so many people man On a seren audience. Show for this. Did you other people see it what they're willing to full load. That's that was the a few people twelve people to complain about. That's very tricky. I hope the charity factory. That was that before me too but it was. Was it before that before the metoo has made meant to scarcity. That kind of thing At least me at least two people have instruments at least in that way. It's worked. I'm not saying it's got rid of everything. But i'm saying it has frighten some of the worst ones from doing the absolute worse things so blatantly and a blessed me to for that time a feminist but sometimes i agree with all the feminists because like me feel a mighty tonight because i guess the so very clever and i'm so glad i women about science and medicine i'm overly rest but also overly impressed. Looks what happens when medicine goes wrong. Look around. I'm stuck audience. Nice you'll out there all the way you're out there thank you thank you. We need you. Comedians we need you love. I'm a feminist spots. I don't Correct my brother when he calls women ladies because he's such a nice pass on but it does absolutely drives me mental Why just have the words in a do come in ladies. I'm nelson lady. I had crinoline on. And i don't drink mighty in feminine way. Stop calling me that. What i'm but i think i get annoyed by men saying ladies if i was on a goal so i out goals here those that goes out and one of my friends who are ladies. Were off to the next. What i'd be fine with that but if a man saved ladies do come in i'd be like no absolutely double started. It's not really the difference. That is the way that you said this. And i'm very familiar with that as a sense of irony bounce it when women sat to their friends come away days. Isn't it but men do not. That's why it makes it very nearly one dot arte dot owner. Don't use it. does things for me. Aronie pure rules. I would never say. Ask the lady of the shop. Because i would think that's diminutive i would say on the woman and asserting say asked the girl in the shop and as she was five would say goats goes out all right ladies another round of drinks. You're right the way. I said that the there's a touch of irony. Isn't it the thing i really tonight is. Shall i be mother when someone's pouring the tea. I'm like even if their mother dead absolutely may it's the guilty feminists. Yes we are back back to where we once beloved science museum for international women's day and here with me is like sexual co-pilot joe brand's blue excited you'll you'll you'll co-hosting the guilty feminist of this for a long time. Identify what. I'm gonna get my other two wishes because that was the first one i asked the genie full and they were immediately. And we've asked you because you're one of the best comedians in this country and also we would especially excited to get this episode because where the science museum is women in medicine. You want the comedians. I know who has been in medicine. You were enough. Which i think is one of the most extraordinarily jobs that there is and I read today on the bbc news websites but nurses after all With covid you've seen faces bruised from the ppa and we know that they're paid so little may do so much. They being offered a one percent parents. Can you imagine what's the incentive for anyone to be announced it will there isn't really any incentive financially tool because i think it was a very low barrier and so if you put one percent on mill still because he paid next to nothing compared to what though The problem with that is is the people said elyssa vocations. So it's all right for us to give you rubbish money. Untreated eve badly. You because you love it so much that whatever we do to it doesn't matter ends also have to say there's an shaw everyone's thinking it because the majority of is a women. It's kind of easy to do it to them You know and at one point as we move forward it went. Be easy to do that anymore. But it still is slightly easy. At the moment. I think and I think that's a shocking. Shame for the ladies. Sorry we did it episode. And then i did a tv pilot where i duck into this more deeply. A lot of people going out of nothing now as not really to do with the money. The money is shocking and lot of necessarily going to food banks which is just a disgrace to this country. In my opinion. I shouted in us for diane. That was really helpful. Because i understood it that doctors might come down and go visit we. Don this person's assistance needs that. But the nurse's role is to be the humanity and do things in a caring way and engage with that person and see what they need and because there were so many few in us as now for all sorts of reasons that need not be been not the part of their job which is vocation anymore that are allowed to because they've got to run said people don't die and dispense pills very quickly and whatever else needs to be dumb. Get to do the big. That is the vacation you know they were describing saying you know even giving someone a good death making sure they look after their families call or use it with the family's not available or whatever it's not it's their overrun and therefore that part of Which is much more heightened than that of a person who might be in another profession is actually being squeezed because where as someone else might be able to just dispense. The medicine will call someone who has a vacation to nurse so desperate to engage connect on a personal level and the time means that they're not being able to do that. Is that something you remember in you experienced. Well yeah but. I think things have really changed science anatomy. One thing happened. When i was a nash. Was they brought in something called the nursing process and what that was was an attempt to try and get ness is to humanize particularly general. Nasa is not so much i can't masses but to get gentleness is to humanize patients a bit more. Because they got to the point. By sometimes i was so busy that social got all of you given to the liver in bed nine you know. And that's passing but just speak truly an illness rather than a whole individual with a personality and everything so they made a big effort to sorta change that and then not much longer off to it's nasty began to have to have a degree to become a nurse now before that happened. You two grades of nurse is you have. Let's say stick to general nursing esau ends and sem's an se end had slightly less time to trade and they had a two year training. I think as our had three but also. They were kind of expected to do the so less. Glamorous jobs said they did kind of cleaning up in the changing beds. Never everything and the kind of srn's on the slightly kind of mole in a challenging stuff but seacen's kind of what got rid off and replaced with what used to call nurse assistant but a cold healthcare assistance. And so what you have. These days onassis have degrees is added to some extent that falsely underused because they know much more than sometimes they're called upon to do and i have to say when i was in Twenty four psychiatric emergency kit. This is boasting anything. But we've basically trained the junior doctors how to work in acute psychiatry because they would get the wet behind the as sega master polling lake kind of inappropriate things to patients and we would have to kind of get them out and get down into since gonna hit. You know you need to give them fifteen hundred milligrams at that. You might kill them to do that. So you know. In some ways it was rhop's com. Scrubs did not with. I remember once the nurse roberts who is very dry said to dr this junior doctor just told me to give that patient x milligrams of this drug. But i thought i'd check with you. Before i kill the man it's regarded live is gonna kill him so i guess i'm gonna have to talk to another doctor because i know you know and you brilliant show called guessing on which was your experience of being in us. Yes absolutely and a Lovely show to do. And i think i hope was it. Brought out was just a very different things. Different types of past. Nazis contribute in a hospital setting and i just wanted Also quickly go on. Say it's not always the case. That nurse is constantly superior to doctors. That's i'm not saying that. But i'm just saying with so to views any on doctors curious sort of you know kind of bolster things about space. Then they go onto the heady heights of which ever specialists may they nights upon and us is ceo but that point you started introducing a specialist. Nasa says wow clinical specialist may kind of assaultive on apo- with junior doctors in terms of that knowledge that prescribing ability or whatever it may be so it's all kind of quite complicated in a way i think i don't think they've lost sorted out. It's gonna go so if you're watching at home hashtag nautile doctors hashtag nozzle masses now. I'm sure doctors unnecessary tuned in tonight. Because it's the women medicine special joe's speaking from her own experience about one small thing. Don't throw things at the screen and tweet science museum. We get it. We get it. It's complicated debate. But i think that The point is sometimes necessary under appreciated. We haven't been a nurse for thirty five years so either worked at scutari. So don't take anything i say. Red pine to the present day you know and so don't get angry. Because i've said because i mean it's very very different now and i know kind of the huge pressure at nazis around the now in a very different way but i'm kind of just giving a a retrospective tip to through the history of this later. We are one of our guest. Is florence nightingale so Hey what's funny is seen to make making guessing on to be. I have to say the scenes. The i loved. The most were the ones with ricky grover in because he played his hugely pompous maleness. You really know anything. And so anything with him in and ask trying to Backed him away from doing something. Utterly ridiculous i'm that the scenes. I like the best ones that we lifted from various malls in different hospitals like we of life-sized cardboard at statue of the head of the hospital. And when people were asked it would go now will show hands please. I'm not always made me now. But actually that was given to me by a friend of mine and she said they actually did have in the hospital and not real. How joe that start she was. It's time we all need one of those at our house. Now we're obsessed with Hans now for fourteen happy birthdays. The you were on the other side of this. The happy birthday song is gonna trick me. I'm telling you when. I hear that a policy. I'm going to stop wanting to wash my hands and it's not to help someone's they'd get a special at rebuts dyke it also. Hello everyone out there in science museum land. Who's tuned in. I think there's about a thousand of you. Thank you so very much. Would you like to hear some comedy. Joe brand yes. Of course you would say please. Welcome to the mic. the exceptional job. thank you very much. I am not At committee in the traditional sense. But i am going to just let a few am. Little incidents is from my comedy career and my nursing career because it's international women's day. I think it's kind of important just to kind of look back at a few times. When let's say maybe some people were were less than a subtle. I'm gonna stop with taking my daughter when she was about six with my best friend too because she's very swollen and my best friend. She's five years younger than me but she just happened to have prematurely grey hat and junior doctor k men who worked. Obviously it's fourteen 'cause they did when they when you gals and he turned to me and started explaining what was going on with dole and then he turns my best friend. Five years young awards nand think and counted really say about nine vote because it was only rude and she voiced it to mate really says something about the attitude towards women who have gray hair. It doesn't matter of your twenty three. If you will has gray he you'll seventy it's not weird anyway said that kicked it off. Also one thing that i did a lot of when i started committee was i called pet gates. Which means you kind of a system that allows you to do is sort of relax a bit and be comfortable with of talking to the audience is achieve really hard work because the whole structure a mood of the evening is in your hands. I think compass what really really hard. So i'd done a big show at a club called the reg raise. Infants hawk and going very well on my probably twice. The amount material may be three times the actual stand up comics done by introducing anyway came upstage enough out quietly my south and A man who had been to show came up to me and he said him. Do you do anything else. While you hair and i said what do you mean and he said will you have to kind of clear up. Wash the glasses. Sweep floor on the comb. Pat for god's sake. But because i was in women he just issued that somehow i come on Somehow donuts. And then i was responsible allows sweat take is maybe back to nothing for a little bit. We had a police cadet when i first trained as a student at where he on the water. This seems a little bit wet behind. The is we order. Spend an emergency bleed. When not went off it would know may be violent incidents you find a number and you have to run as fast as you could to a world where said incident would be we hope the cool one day and he actually arrived fast at the world and that was a woman kind of waving haram around and screaming and and generally kind of make a huge fast. He was on his own so he slept on top of her through her on the floor face down and sat on top of her with her arms into her back and not women was senior system mullet. Who's in charge of the board. So not was carole quinton testing day. She's not happy as you can imagine that some guy lesser at so. I also just have to say one thing that enough. I was really trying to either degree. I was one of the fast degreen. S in the country very early on and we were found to be so intelligent Decrees that we didn't actually as psychiatric ness is have to do a general three-month nurse training so the only training that we got was in the school of nursing and we were taught to inject oranges. And we never actually did anything to a human being until we will let loose on the wards so consequently i was absolutely useless every physical procedure the had today and i remember once injecting. This poor woman like really really bad day and saying yet. Okay i'll just have another guy and after She sends me went. Can i have a tablet please. And so i used to be account with other people to go into it. And i was also quite an Win pitches enough wasn't trying to tablet mccain on kind of physical procedure is on either once did unique doctor who was doing a number punch on someone at which means drawing some cerebral spinal fluid from the bottom of the spine. You have to get the patient in a particular position. It's quite trick k. While i had to goes at my injection he had nine goes at this right. I'm a boiling hot august day. This poor woman looking lovingly at me like a winded animal. And i didn't do this deliberately. He knelt down. I'll just have a more guy. I fainted on top of him. Knocked him to the floor. And i think it probably has been quite badly and The patient up on the bed when his thank you thank you thank you. I think i have a gold. I'm a mess back to me briefly. When i gave birth my first child i was in the price of and somebody came on to the labor suite with an autograph book and asked my autograph which is probably one of the most surreal. Things that's ever happens. May and yeah. That was doctor from the hospital and actually during the infant whole episode was very odd host but for a couple of days and at one point. I was getting kind of that. Kept painkilling injection. And i have to say a midwife. It did it. Did it really badly rarely. Am i kind of school. Really land play and she said i'm so sorry. Can i kiss it better now. Which nosing. my newest acted. I won't deny we'll james not was it was so it Finally at wamu comedy story. When you start to toil no this debra you go from being bay which is mike grimm senate thing and suddenly you find yourself saving quite nice vitale's Was saying very nice hotel in manchester. And i didn't actually have a state case with just have my stuff in a test case bag and i went up to the counter and said oh there's a room full may she who secure it's safe a yeah said. I think we've managed can bid so i wasn't eventually fats. Obviously i must've the and finally i think one thing. We must not get a about. Nurses is that they do suffer a degree. I think much less these days but a degree of harassment. I did about four weeks of nights. When i finished my training with the maleness who basically was trying to chap me up for four weeks and it was quite stressful to on us and on the final night when he knew it was his last chance He got a couple of drinks as well. he sort of leaned across. Maybe by sitting on armchairs. I'm he actually sat accompanied anyone but actually use this as a chance line but he said lucky at you is like looking at a piece of meat in a is window that you can't afford on. He just jumped till may and started to come slow. Bring on either. My neck and where to sing was to quit severely. Depressed patients got out of bed and came out. I'm got him off me. I'm i like to tell that story to people because people just have such a kind of stereotypical idea of psychiatric patients. It's not nearly said bad again now. Sobriety change but in my day. People just anybody who's in the psychiatric hospital was by definition dangerous killer and so to tell someone. I had to get to people who are being treated in as i catch. Hospital to rescue from a male mass. I kind of felt that was already big deal so completely comedy guys but you know i could have. It's sort of mixed picture of of winning nursing comedy a bit jabra. Everybody thank you. So much al i yesterday is an independent sites journalist and the author of three books including inferior how science got women wrong and superior the return of ray science. She presents radio and tv programmes on the bbc and her writing appeared in the sunday. Times nature new scientist national geographic and wired. She's currently working on her. Fourth book on the origins of patriarchy is welcome angeles. What have you and chris of cv. You have to still like his about though. I mean dr either but someone offered me one of those honorary doctorates and make people. Call me doctor all the time. They should be called doctor. So i guessed is a second guessed the uk special envoy on antimicrobial resistance monster trinity college cambridge and former chief medical officer for england in the twenty twenty years on his she became the second woman and the fourth outside the royal family to be appointed dame grand across the order of the bath. Gb for services to public health and research she has also been awarded more than thirty honorary doctorate degrees. So she's i'm thirty. I dream of the date. Please welcome dame sally davies. Sally thank you for joining us. I'm c. glittering. I would say yes. It's quite good. Look back at it. But i didn't set out to do that. It just kind of how i believe that. I'm not saying he didn't set out to do it. But i'm saying it didn't just happen. There's a lot of hard work there. you may not have set out to have a pink fashion. The queen bops. Yeah you really tell a lot of work you haven't you didn't fall out of bed onto it either so we are talking to you today about women in medicine and angelie. Your first book seems like a great place to start inferior. How science women wrong. Can you tell us a little bit about what's in that. Well i had just given birth to my son and it might not is an engineering so used to write about engineering and physical sciences. But when i went back to work. And i'm sure lots of people can empathize with this. Had to take what i could get and editor set me. Can you to story on the menopause. Which was something. I knew nothing about. You know either academically or through personal experience but had to say yes. Because i needed the work and Just coincidentally at that time. A paper had been published in canada by three mile scientists hog arguing the reason that evolution reason that women experienced the menopause might be because right through our evolutionary history so right throughout human history from the beginning men did not find older women attractive enough to have sex with him. No man of any age and This was wig because There was accounta- theory. In fact the prevailing towns theory that says the reason that women live so long into the insert all years which is more accurate way of thinking about menopause because most animals around the world die around the same time that they stability facility and this grandmother hypothesis states that the reason that women experience menopause long is because just so useful to the kids and the grandkids to help. Keep them alive and a lot of women who worked on this theory now. I had been trained up in a system that said that science is objective. It's rational that whatever ideas we have about the world Through empirical observation and understand. Then why men and women were coming up with theories about the same thing and of course there is there is you know we're we're affected by not just what we taught what we about the world so what we wanted to be true and that's where inferior came off. It's really an investigation into how scientists think about women's minds and bodies and why they think about us that way and all the mistakes that i've made through history and how those mistakes are slowly encrypted. And what did you discover about menopause. Do we know why. But i tell eleven i why because when we talking about why we all the way we all what is human nature and history will never know unless we get a time machine and go back and in and see it for ourselves which will never happen. But the grandmother hypothesis is the one with the most data and Rational behind it. And certainly if you look at the data we can see through studies and observations around the world that the presence of grandmother does increase the lifespan of and grandchildren so there is an evolutionary mechanism. At least there is a possibility that that could be true. So that's the one on sticking with rather than the. I am honestly disappointed. That the only reason i'm going to live beyond menopause to care for children. I want it to be more feminist than that. I wanted to be because women are meant to come together and take leadership one day. Take over the world i want. I want to be more than not enough hanged. Anything's possible. Okay yeah evolutionary biology an evolutionary theory. You can come up a chevy. We like he can look on that. If you like in the case through history that women have been looked at a certain way. Haven't they example at roman times women's private bits for cold hugh denda which means things to be ashamed of and also if we hysterical that men's our way was off wondering rounds out both a Wind could get on the shelves who get something. East villa denied. But i'm so i think from that. You know women have always been severely innocent. Weigh-in might never thought that in some ways maybe the cool part of sciences objective but scientists. Very much guided by who you are on what the sort of i love this word and people find annoying but what Paradigm is in terms of how people view particular scientific theories so it's never totally objective. Is it would be. Scientists tend that they are imagine that they are not least because it makes them feel authoritive and more important than every shaw sally. You went from being a doctor to being in public health. So a role like chris witty. How was that how. How does it go for being a doctor to somebody who has to comment on the health and the health practices and guided a whole nation's health. Well it is quite scary all the way through actually because so many different things come. A strength is in being able to interrogate people literature. Angela and i share. That will look at the literature and two assimilated to a view and the differences. You'll going from an individual in front of you and so the balance shifts because you'll think about populations but everyone wants to help and we're all born with brain. Some of i say you learn about it. People give advice then you come to a conclusion for me. The biggest journey worlds to learn about the health impacts of deprivation. I knew from my work. In brenta was a doctor working on sickle cells. About how difficult it was. But i hadn't understood the broad aside deprivations impact on health. And if you look now the fact that we're having one of the worst outcomes in terms of deaths per population from kovin eighties related to deprivation. Am i i got there but it took me a euro two to learn that understand it. So you've got to look at the sort of societal factors. That might make up a health crisis. What do you think is one of the greatest global health now. We've had this global health challenge. I acutely aware we all want species all trying to put borders and keep these people out. You know prioritize also whatever. We're one species. The virus doesn't care. What our flag football team. We support whether or not. We're trying to put up borders to keep refugees out the viruses the virus and it sees us all as human beings. What's one of the greatest global health challenges. The future i think it is he work as a globe. And how are we fair to old parts of it and that plays out through kobe. Not safe to the rest of the world is vaccinated but of course the Slow pandemic that. I've been working on for the last seven years as the resistance of bugs whether they're 'bacterial viruses or parasites to antibiotics. We call that antimicrobial resistance. We've already got seven hundred thousand people a year dying of that and yet we don't talk about it so i think it's a bit like a lobster cove. Was the lobster. Dropped into boiling water. And it's making ratchet knits dying quickly antimicrobial resistance in lobster put into cold water. It slowly heating up saw dying will die but no one notices because it's so slow. We're all used to seeing things. That happened so slowly you don't notice and that's you know i noticed that i'm getting olga until i look at myself in a mirror and then look at the photograph or something because it happened so very grand jury. I'm incredibly generous. If you sell because every single day. I'm like i feel lots of new Of i think i would love ought to have that. That's a lack of author there. all right. can i a couple of things am. It's what we know about covid. Nineteen at the moment is a twelve hour clock outfought rounds claw conway. How much more do we need to know. We like to clock. we've got go another round. We bought Same what the variance do we've got to be able to produce vaccines against these variants. And we've got to share it all around the world and at the moment Many of the poor countries. What we call no middle income countries a really struggling. Don't have enough. Oxygen made don't have The supplies they need maxine and they are like us building up. Waiting lists people with other illnesses that need handling because otherwise no have a lot of illness and death because event if gpa's prescribed less antibiotics with that so some they cry bill issue out. It would doing well in this country. We persuaded them to reduce by. I think it's a five percent over the last about five years but we still know too. Many prescriptions are dispensed. gp's fold. They don't have access to rapid tests to judge whether it's a bacteria or not patients at demanding it so we need to teach public wash hands and prevent infections and wanted to stand that viruses. Don't respond to file takes and help the gp's tank time to biotic. Angela i just wanna throw to you because something. Sally said there was very interesting. That inequality means that while wealthy countries might get on top of the virus. We are all one species we one globe and unless we help poor countries that are often poorer because of colonization et cetera. We're not gonna fix it. Because we're letting countries again because of inequality hang out to dry but also we know that all like asian ethnic minority people in this country and other western countries have died of covid than white people. You co superior the return of ray science. Could you speak to this little bed. It was my biggest bugbear last. You all have been working on for the last year is trying to shift these narratives around race and covert so is around. March april coincidentally just a couple of months after the british medical journal released a special issue on race in the nhs rice in medicine showing the extent of racism not just against patients but also the staff within the hsa. Experience of this is real. It's not just an issue in the united states is also a problem in the uk But when the starts became clear that have ethnic minority backgrounds particularly asian doctors at the beginning in london with dying at much greater rates. And everybody else. I saw prominent medical professionals some physicians. Start speculating about the possibility that that could be. Genetic reason for this that there were there was some genes that we non white people have that make us more likely to die of covid than everybody else and i was shocked because we have always known that there were racial disparities in health in the uk in the us where we were seeing the same problems last year. Why would we not expect them to play out in the inventive pandemic. Of course i'm going to soon the us. For instance black americans dive almost everything at greater rates and wise americans including infant mortality. So that risks. John's from childbirth. What on trump as. Well i'm american science in a fixed up but by paceman not giving the same care and treatment and not have to say on access to resources. Well that's an aspect of it. There are other issues. There are demographic issues. There are structural issues. That mean that. Like sally said one of the big reasons for health disparities is economic status and deprivation and now this overlaps with race so very often if you are an ethnic minority you're more likely to have a poor diet or live in a more toxic area or more toxic environment tickly in the us. So why did we not expect those social factors to also play out those environmental factors to also play out when the pandemic started and it was very tough to change that narrative. I'm remember writing a piece for the lancet originally for the lancet in the summer trying to get doctors to understand that they need to not focus on genetics when they're trying to understand racial disparities around covert on the lancet. The lancet was so resistant to what i was writing. And i wasn't watching anything that went beyond the literature. It was all within literature and quite well established that essays on usually pair of you. They peer reviewed mine twice. And then even all the doctors who are resistant. But do you know what really changed. The conversation was george floyd murder after that murder and we were all having global compensation around racism. Suddenly the lancet invited me onto their covid. Nineteen commission and suddenly. I was getting contacted by autism and lots of people saying yes. You're right we researchers have been looking at the wrong things. Maybe we need to look at the social determinants of health more and not swell. I'll be lucky on the last six months until you use the woods determinants. I think part of our problem is people. Talk about determinants and that's passage your accepting them so i published a book in november and i argue. It's time we talked about drivers social drivers commercial driver's and took control and change the account. You to change your language because people to passive about it. We've got to do something about it. Yeah i completely agree with you. And i do think matters The problem is the language changes all the time. We're always arguing over all the language that we use. For example even the phrase ama fame is so heavily contested and is very difficult to use. Because it's used in research and literature and then you feel very uncomfortable using it out there in the real world because people you know. Some people don't like that time identify with. It is really tough. Yes i am. Understand that much data. But i think dr is is a better word than determinants because if you say sally the some things to terminate drivers means if poverty is driving this we go to stop poverty because it's driving deaths as opposed to poverty is a determinants. Nothing we can do about. It will drive the call now the directions. That's that's a great piece of language. We're always looking for language to change to create because i wish crates doors and it creates the way that we approach things. I mean i to idea. One of the shoes is having a station about steps and being comfortable because as you said angela that is still so much. That stops when i think on the one side. You've got kind of liberals who are tiptoeing around wearing their game to offend people and they hit a lot people night. The ten bain. So they don't know what to say. I think if we actually talk honestly about it amongst ourselves. I think many that you know it's going to move on from this. I mean when. I was at the mall in camberwell. I belong to a group called the british trans cultural psychiatry great which obviously towns a bit kind of alden. It's out but what we were trying to look at was. Why am for example. Five to six times as many african caribbean men. You were diagnosed as having schizophrenia. As kind of winds counterparts you know and that kind of lots of different theories on the loss of anger on a loss of resentments and i remember going to a conference and just getting up and saying people don't even know how to talk about this with how other people in the group getting angry and i. I don't know how you get around that. Do you disagree. I think we need to agree more on how to talk about it and then we can talk about it without even arguing about the fact. We're talking about wrong way. Thing is whatever words you used to describe. Race are always going to be adequate because like deborah said we all want species and these categories that we've come up with over the last few hundred years all betrayed never always been all between them shifting the boundaries of these categories voice shifting and. That's why we struggle with them. You know that's why we struggle to place people in boxes while we struggle to place ourselves in boxes. I struggle with language to it. Doesn't really mean that much for me. Especially when i was writing superior it was. I wrote it for myself really. It was a very cathartic experience. Because i've struggled with my identity. Someone a group in a very racist part of south east london and of struggled with it mine tie life and what. I realized that the end with that my entity doesn't actually belong to me. It belongs to wherever. I happen to be in the world and it belongs so people looking at me and deciding what i am. I don't get to decide it sadly but none of us do because it's always been like that is always been a shifting quantity you know in the eighteenth century i would be categorized as caucasian because caucasian under the original. Bloomberg definition was everyone from north india to western europe. And now it's the word that we used to politely described white people you know. I am sometimes categorized as black because in anti racism movements when i was growing up in the eighties nineties. If you're not white then you politically black. So my union you. jay still calls me a black member. So i'm at the same time depending on your perspective white brown or black and that's a nonsense of this country not so difficult. That's why we still find them. So if inequalities a driver then black and brown people will suffer sally. You'll the special envoy frame on. Yes can you tell us what that means. Well lies some years ago Infections we getting out of control in way and that When i was a young doctor and joe was nursing if someone golden than it was resistant. You've got another antibiotic out because we had the whole coverage point but lines and t so this is a list was problem. It's particularly bad in col- countries so there is an outbreak at the moment of dot bacterial diarrhea which started in hyderabad and moved up to Pakistan and instead of full percent of children. Dying because of antibiotic resistance forty percent of children at dying and this shouldn't be allowed so what we're doing is what what happened. Was i said to the government right on a moving on from being chief medical officer. Chris witty will be just perfect coat. You've got the right guy there. I'm going to be mastered. Shouldn't college don't want the nation to give up trying to sort this out both nationally and globally will let me have this title and go on on behalf of the nation and really jing things up at the world health organization so i was allowed to have this title and we work. I work with government on the g. Seven and how we respond. It's things like transparency of drugs supplied. You away old superman you could find out where your clint's up from you didn't away your drugs came from and you don't know if actually drug the doctor wanted to give you wasn't available which it often isn't so they just substituted something else because it's not transparent except in new zealand. Interestingly but across the rest of the world is not transparent. So we're asking. The parents were asking the new ways to do. The research pulled through new drugs so new zealand. You can find drugs. Have come from the same way you can say well. I wouldn't buy this stress because it was made sweatshop by this. Because i know it's ethical and but new zealand. The country in the world just auto yells run enough shops at doesn't she live is getting more and more and more of a destination live every single with announcing she wants to. We'll feminist before she thought it but yes go into the drug regulators to a website. You see but where. Can i come from what i know. What with fashion. Whether it's fashionable sustainable fashion. I know with food need. Is this battery hens or these hens being treated well and that my food being filled with things that i have no idea. What question would i ask for drugs. They will come from an app that they donald will yes. Let's do some. We can talk about pigs and chickens. Cool smoldon's seventy percent. Vent politics go into them not to treat illness but made them grow foss immediate conversation fillet to on drugs while the reason why we're becoming resistant. I'm not good. The food chain. Yes because they read in intensive farming not in europe countries the intensive farming with growth promoting antibiotics promotes biotic resistant bugs. That commend be transmitted to humans or into waterways. Or whatever. but i'll drunks. We should all be vegan. Shouldn't we really say should we'll get to have a bit of animal protein but we should eat a lot. More cloud base to dump -solutely yes but have be twelve. They didn't get to nemec so when you can. But i'm not thinking so i i shouldn't say because i'm just a massive hypocrite. Yes what have you come from. So the active ingredients generally come from china and india. And then that put together to make the drugs mainly in india in the west and some in the states but predominantly in india rolla generics and everything and in making them. They push many of those Companies masses of the drugs into the out flow into the water systems. And that's very bad too so we're trying to waste yes k. Why is this really cheering. You up comedy. I know i. I think the thing is what's scary about it is. It's kind of everywhere. You know animals being done so also think pumpkins That fed because it's changed la. You know on. Everyone's excreting everything into into the rivers and that so you know into the water supply and the problem with that is all by fail. That that isn't anywhere you can get something that's unadulterated anymore And you know we haven't mentioned the drug companies making profits as well and selling brand itself and it not being available to certain groups to fold it. It's just i mean i know. This is basically a better comedies. Tonight is extremely depressing. may When you get the crash occurred have big business versus people sale. And if you look you yeah well. We do go solutions. Let's think positively sally. You're on this. How can we help. What what are you doing. he's account. We help what are you doing but we can get behind. Well i do bec- and help. I think the problem is round. The world and i won't patients to be able to find out what bug they've got whether this resistance. That's supporting our poor world helping everyone. I won't limit somewhat can be put into the environment parent say i won't new drugs. That will be new ways all funding the drugs. Because i the reason we didn't have new drugs is the famous typical companies. Don't make profits out of them. They have been made to sell them so cheap stopped researching room. So we've got to really fun. A system in britain a piloting paying them a certain amount of money but doctors can use it as they want. And when valuing the antibiotic bites virgil patient like cancer drug but all of our society in britain and we're going to see whether that allows us to help get new drugs could be show sash from queen but no i'll go outside the real of hats with what your doing angelo up ball. You know. i feel like. I've done my part because i have not put anybody off. Thankfully we're not in person. But i have recovered strep throat so i get strep quite often and a few years ago. I decided to stop taking antibiotics for it. And now i just off myself. And i find myself fighting off every time i feel it in my throat to find myself fighting feel i have done my bit. Anti microbial drug will pay your thing. The i'm of sally. Could you have lived with her. Majesty and what angeles has done to not take antibiotics faisal throat and if she could russ up. Cba or no being something it would be a good wouldn't it. Yeah what did you take. And i'm friends with a very good friend of her majesty and she cheeky It'd be great if there was something full cheeky. Ib which just sort of slightly off. Kilter a reason for getting an mba. Angela is the any work used on any of your books that speaks to this area of covid of viruses. The the future. What do you see for us for the future. Sally does this wonderful work kind of a research level and my job as a journalist is really to broaden it out and i think a lot of the way that we think about human difference in the reasons why things effect some people more than others or why some people for example. I'm allergic to penicillin. I can't take innocent and so the problem is particularly acute for me because there are certain drugs. I can't take and we are all so different at an individual level like that. I worry sometimes that notice. This tendency of the last couple of years to essential is about groups large groups whether that's women will whether it's different ethnic groups and assume that everyone within that group is very similar medically achy wit so different. Most of the difference is at the individual level and very difficult for doctors or researchers to study at that level. Because you know how do that. How do you tailor medicines with seven billion different legal. It's just. It's impossible. But i think we need to try and get an understanding of how we are each different rather than thinking so much about group difference because it really can lead you down false prophets. We see that with rice and medicine but even with women you know there has been this idea. This author docs. I've in wrote an inferior because it was so prevalent in so well established that women suffer different heart attack. Symptoms were men but then in two thousand nineteen off so this was a couple of years after in fairy out the british heart foundation. Funded a study at the university of edinburgh looking at this properly and and they found that actually women are just as likely to experience. Typical heart attack sentences men but one of the reasons they not diagnose is because of sexism because we expect meant to have heart attacks in women not to have off shots so it's not a different bodies necessarily. It's a difference in the way that we treat each other based on stereotypes and assumptions that we have so that kind of delicate balance between understanding what causes the differences that we say in the individuals that we see. I think we have to get a grip that can i just ask both wide. You think that women longer the men in general if all again it's on average. It's not easy for instance. Women have on average slightly stronger immune systems than men. But i know the either i get. Every bogged comes through a house. I will catch it when my son started school i quote everything and my husband navigates sick at all. And so we have to remember. Even if there are statistical level. Drums is between large groups of people. That doesn't really tell you anything about one particular patient. Yeah you could get your husband's or antibiotics that my tabet night. Well he's license talk with sally. Wide of women live longer than men as a trend. I think they have slightly. Longer taylor behl so it it is a medic presumably. Because we have two x chromosomes as well. I've never read it up. i'm busy. Hey we do and the fact now we do know why people in on my community is Live with ws multi-modal bid e settle. Ill health Of those in our least deprived. So you know the Probation the only illnesses got whether the cardiovascular diabetic or cancer they coming and the outcomes are worse on these so they live next long live longer with ill health and that's abominable that our society accepts. That doesn't do something about it. We did pizza tom. Yeah we should. Ten thousand people would be live for an extra five years. If only the most deprived got the same standard of care absolutely deprived. I mean imagine man. Yeah an achy. That life expectancy gap between the rich and the poor in britain has been getting bigger companies. It's got worse. People take notice of what's measured the government to develop consett health index alongside the gdp. I'm really excited. Because at the beginning of december they published a national health index from the office of national statistics. Fall um consultation. I'm we're to get one. And they counted trending just the data as a hundred percent. And it's dropped that's news but it shows it's picking stuff up so that is a really exciting thing woke it measured gets manage dengue yup. Well i have faith that one you driving that things are going to change because your energy is absolutely incredible Anything you before we throw to audience questions. Is there anything you came to say that. You didn't get to say that you would like our audience to know about women in medicine about covid about your specialty. Got about women medicine that we now have more than fifty percent of the medical students. Women and you can do anything when i came in. There was a glass ceiling in joel. And let it take. You were way you want to get great succumb into medicine Women in the majority now. The majority of doctors women are in this country. Anything when elizabeth got what elizabeth guard anderson had to do to get. I mean it's unbelievable what she had to do. If anybody doesn't know no one would accept her at a medical school had to find a medical school with a loophole with i had forgotten to say in their charter. No women because i thought it was like no zippers Saying obvious and so she go in there then. She got a license but she didn't have a full medical degree. She learned french well enough to go to the so bomb who were accepting women bashing ninety. French went enough to study medicine french when she came back. No one would give her a job and so she's had to set up her own clinic and the no would come and then she got really lucky with an outbreak of cholera weld on wealth unbelieveab- guard on people so desperate but by went out that she was she was great but the reason. She's a feminist. Is she then. Set up a school so other women didn't have to go through what she did. She's the reason we have percents female doctors country today and it's something to be remembered to not make yourself the exception but invite others in anything you would like to say you haven't it yet before we get that story about elizabeth guard anderson. It's not a claim to fame in my family but my husband's family. His aunt was the first dentist in india. She's still alive now. She's in her late nine and we did go and see her one of her birthdays a couple of years. And i'm very grateful that we got the chance to do that. And take my son to meet her but she was the most incredible woman she never got married. She traveled the world as a dentist and made all these wonderful friends of the dentist. Women friends around the world and still kept in contact with them to this day she still corresponding with her friends around the world Although she worked very hard throughout her life it was only near the end that people started to realize. Wow this is what you did. You did something. Quite amazing traveled the world by shit and did these incredible facts that are now. She's being remembered alpha. That's wonderful that's ready. really wonderful. Anything to plug or you want us to do or tell us about angela. We should buy your books especially inferior and superior both of which completely fascinating any anywhere else. We can see you follow you on twitter anything else. We should know about have website. But i want to urge everybody actually to There's a wonderful lab at harvard. Run by one sarah. Richardson called agenda labs. That's all one word. So if you type that into google and if you want to kind of get on top of gender and sex differences and how to think about in a more nuanced and careful way. I think that's the place to stop and have some really good articles also about sex differences and covert and why need to be careful before we stop essentially icing groups of people. Let me think about these things. Sally is there anything you want to do of the not. Take antibiotics unless we take summation refund. Call go for that one. Not as lee The routine wounds of childhood and old age. But actually these ones that we've got now for cova off proven to be extraordinarily safe now. I had a bit of a sore shoulder of three days off my first but hey it's worth it for the advantage against barra that it gives us. The hood gets immunized Please please please nation. I think we're preaching to the choir. Let's be on on the guilty feminist. Science museum. livestream auditing city. One on the job brand everything you came to say or would like to tell us about any way we can follow you anything we can do. Just leave me alone not on many. Why would like to say is i think you know. We're still on. The bridge between baying members of society had absolutely no power whatsoever and having parity with men with still crossing the bridge. I just want to say that. I hugely admire women who somehow manage and it is so going on very much said. He'd percentages of women who not only manage that families but also managing credibly demanding jobs with not as much help as they should be get saying than managing what they call. The holiday. chalet allotted Fulltime jobs and now a lot of them a day nice to the high school they as well and that's why i think women are absolutely brilliant. That tough boots but they shouldn't need to be on. They should get a bit more respect and a bit more money and a bit more help with a lot. that's all. I can say what i'm please can. We give the nurse as more of a pair of one percent for god's sake after everything that basically with custody said is insult is an insult absolute insult so get vaccination remember. It's international women's day so to appreciate the women that come before us fought for the left and to fight for the inclusion of the women around us and to come and do think of those other sections of diversity and especially inequality as we'd be talking about today as a factor of literally life and death. Have we got some questions from the audience. Make a kroft says what are the main obstacles for women in medicine at present. How have they changed over. The last ten years i think a lot of the schools are in the women themselves. We have to want to do it and we have to when we have children choose partners. Who want to do it too. I guess it goes for every profession. But you can't have it all on your own or you really ask so. You need pajamas. Who recognize women have rights to careers support you and then you have to get on it and you have to believe that you'll the equal of olas other men. Whatever they think will say. I think that the way we structure things needs to be we on society parents to raise the next generation. So wasting structured copy for the nineteen fifties where the mongo's out knows the money and the woman stays home all the time we need to rethink and restructure alexandra. Newton says i lead science at a primary school in london. How can i talk goals and children from disadvantaged backgrounds to boost interest confidence. How did the panel know. That science was for you How did you know. Science was fi angela. Well i was quite lucky that I grew up in a really galateri and family. My dad was an engineer. And i never had any sense that there was anything that i couldn't do the toys that they were or anything like that. I think one of the most important things we can do is give children all the same toys and a wide range of toys. And because these you know depending on what you play with really does exercise the parts your brain and the skills that you need to develop stew you need to do. I loved mcconaughey when i was growing up. I absolutely was obsessed with it. Whether that's why became an engineer or not. i don't know. But certainly as i grew older started tinkering with things fixing things I do all the diy at home. now instantly. because i i know how to announce vic stuff and that's because my mom and dad taught me and simple things like that. We need to kind of have big role models all big inspirational stories just as simple as getting goals to do the same things that boys doing is off the coast jamming boys adult but giving both to both both houses and doctors equally important and we need more maleness as well. How did you know that you want to do such a scienc- degree is not saying. Well i think it was probably remind mom because my mom was just not like other people's mountains she wasn't you know i i boy nineteen fifteen and at school i can remember lots of girls sort of talking about mom's doing by Things that have where it was. My mum was never like that. I remember one day going into schools. Eight or nine and we were talking about what it what we were talking about yesterday when you have taken some of the single. My mom is to address with making mallock Away with about if you had a gun during the second world war. John which you shoot hitler and they were kind of my mom about stuff mama's Just wasn't mummy ish. Save at the time obselete leash. She really got to do a couple of quick questions now. Just so we get more people's questions asked philip cat neck says how have women's bodies often without consent advanced medicine. Well i think ghulam boat is adults med. Some food the learning of individuals by working with patients and a actually women's bodies of melted multiples into much as men. The things i find very irritate isn't most clinical trials have more men and women and they usually don't have pregnant women They say for safety but you know when now having to do the vaccine trials again in pregnant women they usually have old people either so women need to be more. They're excellent answer. Somebody else tau to feel confident returning to the profession after break in practice due to paternity leave or the circumstances. How do you feel confident coming back in as anybody here had a baby or taking a break for other reasons than going back in. I haven't i think the says too. Failing coat Is pretending your confidence. Yes i'm glad when i was when i was sitting that guessing not sitting signing guessing. Some of the most appalling hatching that you could ever believe from these repulsive drunken men. Some nights i would just look at them like i could not give less of a toss and once you stop doing that. They actually genuinely believe new. Can't once they believe that you've one and i think that's half the battle if you don't worry about it you don't look nervous. You don't look subservient acts that you don't and then eventually you won't be and also don't feel guilt of women who go back to work after having kids feel guilty about their kids with someone else but we have to remember that right through human history. Children have not just been raised by mothers if been raised by communities and it's good for children tablets eighties and in fact that was the last night got for my mother-in-law because she did a lot of babysitting for me when i went back to work and she never. She was a doctor herself. Should just retired and she never let me feel guilty about going to work hooton. it takes well. She probably need that. The only reason she was still alive was to take care of the grandchildren. Very reason the that she'd been allowed postmenopausal she understood the purpose. Thank you so very much for joining us angela. Say thank you very much for joining us. Same sally aa throughout twenty twenty one. The science museum group is hosting a series of climate talks panel discussions q. Days and events connecting you with leaders experts activists and campaigners as they discuss how to tackle the problems facing communities due to climate change. Choose to you. By which i mean you enjoy living appliances for more information and how to book brooklyn the science museum's websites and Now it only feels safe. Thank you so much for coming to the guilty feminists. A science museum livestream. Thank you so much to the science museum for. Having us everyone is. What's so hard behind the scenes to make this happen. I want you will be wonderful. Good folks can. I tell you something. The red rose that you just talked about yes. I met my husband who really. Yeah where you told. Could you just go you the glasses after. You've done your brilliant comedy comparing with your not. Hopefully it was my husband. You said that. I like to say i did. Think of that story of being bored and.

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Big Data, Big Problems?

The Naked Scientists

59:55 min | 1 year ago

Big Data, Big Problems?

"Have you loud and clear. Well. Confirm. That is the same physics medicine nature. Brain. The universe. Hello welcome to the naked scientists the show where we were you the latest breakthroughs in science technology and medicine with me, Phil Sansom and me Chris Smith coming up the science or lack of it behind the latest covid rule of six guidelines. The Arctic ice shelf that's lost a mansion sized chunk of ice and the whales suspended up tens of kilometers inland upper river. Also, this week were casting a critical eye over data on automation as the World News Evermore, online and Algorithms make more decisions for us. What problems might be in store for our society Chrissy, and even for our inner selves, the naked scientists cost is powered by UK Foss, dot coach Uk. Now first up this week, the number of covid cases reported worldwide has passed thirty million with recorded deaths approaching a million and counting we've seen surges in the country's worst hit that's India Brazil and the USA. But also in Argentina, France Spain and many others. Israel was the first country to enter a second national lockdown ahead of the Jewish. High. Holy. Days. Meanwhile here in the UK, there has been a sharp spike in cases as well although without the corresponding increase in deaths yet likely because this bike is mostly for the moment among younger people in response to this on Monday, the government introduced the rule of six limit on gatherings importance. Johnson announced an ambitious plan for wider scale mass testing, which he calls Operation Moonshot this has been a bit embarrassing because testing facilities across the country have since been completely overwhelmed. So. What's the scientific rationale behind these interventions? Will they even work? What are the? Attorney I asked the investor. Gabriel's skelly first of all, why pick six? Well, I think it probably comes from that scientific method of wedding finger and raising it to the wind there doesn't seem to me to be any science budget. If one was to try and come up with something that had some scientific background, you would look population density you would look at hustled size in particular we do know that the places where the viruses out it's most prevalent have housing and overcrowding, and these tend to be amongst the most deprived areas in the country. So I don't think there is science behind it, but we should be paying attention to hustled construction. I think that's extremely important I mean the age and the generations involved in living together in a house. The going full, then the domestic setting because the figures that have been published suggests that's where the bulk of the transmissions occur is the rationale then that if you limit the number of people getting together in households you do. Cut Off the virus transmission of its knees at bit. Got Something often sneeze a bit but yes, that would be the idea behind it. Now, whether worker not is another question because the virus pops up in various different places and we've already seen a significant number of workplace outbreaks often to do with the food industry and often to do with migrant workers, and often that is difficult to discern whether the transmission is the workplace or a living conditions of which migrant workers are often grouped together. So the answer I think is Not In the area of trying to make some very precise social restriction, we need a broader deeper approach to the virus, and that's just not what we're getting you in reasonable company because a number of of other academics have come out and said that people just won't tolerate this This will actually breed some degree of disrespect for the rules, Roth of them respect for the rules that will lead to more flouting the rules and actually more transmissions especially with Christmas approaching. I think there's a lot in the behavioral science behind that uncertainly people's confidence in what they're asked to do is really really important and community solidarity is extraordinarily important and if you lose the confidence of the public will then you lose the battle against the virus. One of the anachronisms is talking about policing with Marshall's and fines, and so on. An by do like the idea that we have to spy on each other and report each other to the police this is not how you mobilize an entire community to deal with this infectious disease. The most recent announcements dwell very heavily on testing this whole concept of Moonshot. Talking about by October scaling-up testing to four five over what we're seeing at the moment and then possibly into. By next year do you think they've lost confidence in the question of a vaccine? So now that they going down the test route? Well. It's a very interesting question because on several occasions have been interventions from the top which have sought to cast a really really optimistic picture before us. Herd immunity the promise of an APP huge enthusiasm from the very top of antibody testing and was going to be the next great thing. And now we've got the MOONSHOT. It's no substitute for doing the hard public health graft, get virus under control and and strategy tobacco add up. So what would that hard public health graft be? What would you do differently than the president strategy or lack of the we see playing out what I would do would be I would construct a system which had all the elements to find test trace isolate and support, and there are also reports of people not coming forward for testing because they know they'll be told to isolate and they. Won't be able to go to work and earn the money they need because they're on zero ours contract. So therefore, I would take the very large sum of money that is being wasted on an ineffective known functioning, and it just try system unemployed into local areas, building up public health teams, making use of people like health visitors who know their communities, environmental health officers who do contact tracing for infectious disease, all the time and community leaders particularly from ethnic minority communities and local councillors as well to really turn it into community effort. So tough one isn't it us the University of Bristol? Public Health Physician Gabriel scully talking to me earlier this week. Now, even as we're struggling with this pandemic, many scientists are watching warily for the next pandemic, whatever it might be for this reason former chief medical officer for England Dame Sally Davies has just launched the Trinity Challenge A. Multi-million. Pound Fund to support ideas that might protect us against the next worldwide disease. The money comes from sources including the University of Cambridge the Gates Foundation Google facebook among other companies Saudis with this. Welcome to the program. Sally. How is this actually going to work this fund what actually going to do? Well well, everyone else faces the here, and now which is terribly important. We'd been thinking about how to prevent next one because every five years in this in the century, we've had an outbreak which has become a pandemic including a Bola Sauce Mas Zeka, and of course, the twenty, nine, ten flu which we were lucky with mild. What are we missing? We need better ways to identify waters out. The might come out on impact on humans and once we got it surely, we should be able if we prepare vote about defectively drew respond better and then finally the area is recovery how to come back together again, not use a society but without damaging our columnists too much. So we're trying to bring together people to look at these three different areas and we got twenty two wonderful founder members who are contributing not only funding but more importantly. Data and people that you could call it colliding data science with public. Whether it's genomic data, behavioral data economic mobility health in a different way. So that were better prepared. Was this taken so long to implement those sally because as you highlight in this century, we've seen so many examples of this happening again and again and again and with increasing frequency. Was it taken this one to teach us a lesson why of we not done this before? We couldn't have done what we're trying to do five years ago actually because it relies on having the day to their with engineers and data architects know how it works how it looks is couldn't have been done five years ago, but he can now we have to do it now or we will be remiss. How much money have you got what you firepower looking like on this? Well aiming from million because we won't do three challenge arounds one a year for the next three years. This is about making a difference. So people need money recognition, account the move fit into the next stage, but it's not about getting rich. Sally can you just make it very clear for me once the kind of thing I could come to you and you'd say, yes, here's your here's the big bucks. Okay. So is a way that we can pick up a spike of new virus in the sauce family by looking at a sewage, but make it easy. Is there a way that if we look at all the viruses and bats that Pharma companies could make pre pandemic vaccines that they could tweak? So they were ready if that one came out of the boats, all they could look with. All the possible libraries off drunks and see which ones are on the shelves that might work. Is there a risk sally that these partly private enterprises your funding are maybe not as appropriate as a public one to tackle what is public health? I don't think so I think that public health does not have the data they need nor do they have the great skills of a on machine learning? We have to bring in different academics, different data sources, and it's no secret that these platform companies have taken some of the best academics to we need the best brains wherever they are in the world's geeks nodes need. To come together and solve these problems that's on the supply. But once you've got your product, whatever it is on the other end, there's been discussion about this in the context of a vaccine as well. If a vaccine does eventually get created who's going to get it some people think it should be free when it comes to your sort of projects who's going to get them. It is not our job to practice, but they won't win their terrifically expensive solutions that could only be used by the rich nations. We are interested in the global good and global products. We have the support of the World Health Organization as a delivery organization, they may well help us with judging. So we're looking for insights tools, the foldable that can be used across the world, and then we'll get a hand them oft multilateral delivery partners, people who make things happen, but don't do the research and they send the ticks thinking with filling a whole. Sally. Thank you so much that was dame. Sally. Davies on the new Trinity Challenge. Let's leave this disease ridden planet behind for a moment moved to our closest planetary neighbor and that's Venus. It's got a lot in common with the earth in terms of its size xbox to the sun and possibly its past history and as a result scientists have wonder for a long time if life could have got started there like it did on earth. But. Those theories were dealt something of a knockout blow a few decades bank when space probes revealed conditions sufficiently extreme on Venus to melt metal on the planet Roasting Hall surface. But could life nevertheless eke out in existence in the planet's upper atmosphere where the conditions are arguably more mild? This week that they became a lot more plausible because scientists announced, they'd picked up the signature of the chemical phosphene regarded as a sign of life coming from the clouds above venous. Then Mikasa. Own. As far as planets out solar system where you wouldn't want to live against. Venus our nearest neighbor might just take the cake. It's famously inhospitable with surface temperatures hot enough to melt lead thick clouds of sulfuric acid, corrosive rain, and crushing surface impressions. For Life as we know it, it's hell. And yet, despite all of that, only this week, an international group of astronomers reported something truly remarkable in Venus upper atmosphere. They detected the presence of a chemical compound known as phosphene a phosphorus atom join to three hydrogen atoms widely regarded by scientists as a signature of life. If hypotheses. Correct. It's kind of difficult to overstate how big of a deal this is. It would be the first ever detection of extraterrestrial life proof that we truly aunt alone in the universe. Now don't get too carried away. Nobody's theorizing little green men just yet. If we are looking at life year, it's very likely some kind of extreme microbial life tiny organisms capable of surviving in the harsh acidic environment Venus upper cloud decks. So, how did the team discover this? They used a technique discovered originally by Robert bunsen burner fame back in the eighteen hundreds, his breakthrough was to realize that different chemicals absorb and emit specific colors or wavelengths of light and a particular combination of colors is unique to given chemical compound. So by measuring the colors of light that the atmosphere of Venus or another planet absorbs emits can identify the cocktail of chemicals that present without having to actually go. The team turned the hawaii-based James Clerk Maxwell telescope and the South American. Alma telescope to stay at Venus and record the light coming from the planet's atmosphere. What out from the data was a signal consistent with phosphate at a concentration of about twenty parts per billion indicating possible life in the upper atmosphere. But phosphene isn't just produced by life. There are other natural chemical processes that can produce it, and it's been found elsewhere in the solar system before, for example, around gas giants like Jupiter. However. On. A rocky planet like Venus with the kinds of conditions exist that we aren't aware of any mechanisms for making phosphene other than as a byproduct of living organisms. So it's possible, this some new chemistry or some other as yet undiscovered mechanism, which is responsible for the presence of fos in the atmosphere of Venus, and it definitely requires further study to confirm. But for now, it's arguably the strongest signature of extraterrestrial life that we have ever detected. Exciting stuff. Then mcallister reporting. Hello I'm Chris Barrow bringing you a brand new podcast called naked gaming. This is where we look at Gaming News, top three players, and each of the few levels of again they got a mention in Mike consists reviews say like joke and I ain't got to squeeze in and out. The ring that is. Also. Go back in time with RETRO REVIVAL IT Senatorial Mario Jumps over the small objects automatically sometimes you think well. Why am I even handful? Naked. Gaming. Download it now wherever you get your podcast. Still on the way, some whales that got lost up Australian river and some of the consequences of the data revolution including we all believe that we're making our own choices. But all of my research shows that's not the reality. That comes later on. But first, bad news for the climate. I'm afraid because the architects largest remaining is off this week lost enormous chunk of itself into the ocean. The shelf could seventy-nine comprises thousands of kilometers glassy hanging over the ocean to the North West, of Greenland, but now it's more than a hundred square kilometers smaller. The loss of glass your is like this isn't going to be replaced anytime soon and in combination with similar events last year, as well as this year wildfires raging in the Amazon and the west of the USA, it'll paints a bleak picture for the planet as I heard from Jenny. Durkan from the geological, survey of Denmark and Greenland. In Two Thousand Nineteen two twenty twenty in both years huge chunks of ice of broken off a glacier in the northeast of Greenland in total of the two years, it's around one hundred kilometers squared ice that's been lost, which is roughly the size of Manchester. I mean. That's a huge area. Yes bigger than we've seen previously normally it's two to three kilometers squared the lost each year. But for the last two years, we've seen a much bigger increase in the amount of Isis lost. When you say is lost, it's not like mysteriously disappeared, right? Now the technical term is calling. This is where a place of glacier ice breaks off into a big iceberg or multiple big ice icebergs and floats away in the ocean. So, this isn't a bit that was on the glossier in Greenland on the land. This was a bit that was on the see announced broken off into the sea. Exactly, yes, the seventy-nine knows glacier hardly it's on land and partly it floats on the ocean, which is called an ice shelf and the part that had broken off was already in the water. What is it that causes something like this and especially closet happened you know two years in a row. There were quite a few reasons that are responsible for Commun- events their natural process normally when they're smaller in the last two years, we've had exceptionally warm summers ingredient twenty, nine, hundred and twenty twenty we had record breaking temperatures. Because, it's floating on the ocean. It's also vulnerable to warming oceans as well when when the temperatures get particularly warm, you get a lot is melting on the surface of the glacier. These water than drains down into cracks and adds additional pressure to the glacier which widens the cracks, and then this can end up causing a breaking of the ice uninfluenced away. So unquestionably, this is rare event. Thanks to global warming. It's very difficult to pinpoint particular events to climate change. But when you are having multiple extreme events year after year, it becomes very hard to say that it's not. GonNa. Change. What do you predict for the future? Can you can you track how it's melting at the moment? Yeah we got quite a lot of observations going on in checking the speed of the ice thickness. How much melting is happening in terms of predicting it's quite difficult but the glacier that sits just south of seventy-nine all in the last decade lost all of its floating aspect on. Now starting to wonder, are we going to see the same pattern in the neighbouring seventy-nine? North later. What are the consequences of losing these? Areas of Ice Shelf. I think sea level rise is one of the bigger problems that we face because obviously while the ice breaks off locally, the sea level rise will end up being a global phenomenon. Mostly. It's through indirect So, direct civil rights is when you lose land oyster, the goes into the ocean and automatically melts and causes more sea level because ice shelves already floatin the mass of is already taken into account. So when they break off, we don't get direct sea level rise, but they allow more of the land glaciers to flow out the ocean and then you indirect civilized perhaps a few years later. How much to you is this sort of a bellwether for climate change as a whole. The optic is always seen as a very important location for climate change because it often feels the effects earlier than in other places and also to a large effect, and because it's quite vulnerable to changes in the ice, which then affects how much soda radiation is absorbed. Just a small change in the aren't taking calls quite a big impact. I ask because it's been quite hot summer here in the UK and also obviously recently in the news, they're having these horrible wildfires old on the west coast of America. Is that? Do you think? Are we seeing the same phenomenon? It's all related, really twenty, nineteen and twenty twenty. We had particularly warm. So most heatwaves in most of Europe, as well as in the Arctic and this was also responsible for the temperatures in Greenland and rightly. So we're seeing these record breaking wildfires in the west coast that are bigger morpheus than they've ever been before. I soar good analogy earlier it was if you like to match and throw it on a green lush forest, it's GonNa do way less damage than if you live match and throw it on a very dry dead forest, and because we've had years of droughts on the west coast of America the forest fires are getting more intense, more frequent. Not Good is it No it's not just the northern hemisphere either where we're seeing this I mean the star of the January we also had unbelievable wildfires in Australia, and so it's not just in one particular place. It's happening all across the globe. A sobering reminder there of the rapid pace and impact of climate change that was Jenny Tartan. And finally news surfaced earlier this week of a group of Humpback whales that went swimming quite a long way off their normal beaten track and they ended up tens of kilometers inland along the east alligator river in Australia's northern territory. Now, despite the misleading name, there are no alligators in Australia. In fact, the river is nevertheless filled with some even more fearsome salt water crocodiles. So what are the whales doing in the river and what's going to happen to them Katie Halo reports Off Duty Marine ecologist, Jason Fowler and colleagues, I spotted a of whales on a fishing trip in cockatoos east alligator river in the northern territory, which raised quite a few eyebrows to say the least as it's the first known instance of this happening. The first little these animals up to as much as twenty kilometers up a river up in the northern territory and USTRALIA dissipated pitchy here we're talking murky muddy waters and so when I first saw the picture of Humpback Whale, which is an oceanic spacey's in this murky water, it was something that was a phenomenal thing thought sydney-based marine scientist Vanessa at PIRATA. Now, two of the whales is thought have since swam back out to sea but at least one remains in the river and the worries if stranded in the shallow water, is it going to be able to get out? So the main reason that the probably in there is well, I should point out this has never happened before, but maybe one of the animals took. A wrong turn and ended up in this area thumbed back wiles generally in the Kimberley region, which is northwest of Australia H. and every year to breed and have their babies, and now say time to be hitting Beck South dant Antarctica where they're going to spend the summer fading. Let's hope that this one reminding while has the opportunity to do just that being a. Tidal River is rather different to being in the sea. So how might the whale be doing? Do you sound to to listen and to vocalise to talk about now this whale because in on Acre located may be reliant on visual cues. So simply having a little look around or trying to say where there's a space to soon that's that site side there's a whole. Number of things that would probably be going through this wiles mind and without ends Promo fighting it'll putting a human spin on it on show that this animal might be doing circles or at least on. Friday. There'll be a tame going up just to have another look at it just to say what it's doing and to see if it's made any progression in its movements. strumming is a real risk and up in the Northern Hemisphere Southampton University's Clive. Truman, told me why this is dangerous for a whale watch would want to be supporting with the weight of the organs and the way to the animal. So when it strands that can compress the lungs and undamaged into Logan's same time if a while is stuck and tide is coming in and out almost paradox. Can Drown because it can lift itself off of the the bite can then water can get into the blowhole and drown. So what tools to scientists have available to encourage twelve plus meet away? Oh, to do anything, there's a couple of examples that I could run through one being creating a physical barrier with farts. So the animal was simply move away with type in some cases that hasn't worked in the past where the animal is simply gone onto bites you could use acoustics such as banging on physically banging on vessels, which is really nice for a while some have suggested using kilowatt playback sounds, which is the Predator of the humpback whales but again, a Lotta, these are potentially guttering juice stress our. Expert, team will have to y out what options are potentially going to be put on the table to see if it's worth inducing these kinds of reactions to then have a favorable result, which would be the animal turning directions and heading out to say as the name of the river suggests the whale isn't the only thing in east alligator river. Clive again. It folktales of fantastic animals extremely intimidating, but probably not a risk to sixteen major adult humpback whale unless again the whale is stranded, and if the world is stranded and stuck than, you could imagine the talk dolls could pies an additional risk. At, the time of recording, we don't yet know the humpback whales fates. But could there be a positive hey, could having enough whales to be able to get lost on a migration indicate that population numbers doing? Well, we definitely Nari these population is doing quite well in fact, this is one of the largest humpback whale populations in the world. So why I'm trying to say is the removal of one individual and a very large we'll growing population is not going to limit their recovery of the spacey's or essentially the population, which is a positive thing. Hoped Wales are certainly recovering from the effects of wailing foster than many other baleen whales. What would be fascinating to know is whether there are cultural records, indigenous records, tribal stories of Humpback Whales in. Rivers from the time before you're. Hunting and it would be absolutely. True. Doesn't sound much like they're having a whale of a time though does it fingers crossed the team that they managed to encourage those wells back out to sea? Kayla was talking with sydney-based marine scientist Vanessa Perrotta, and you also heard Truman from the University of Southampton. The naked scientists podcast is produced in association with Spitfire Cost Effective Voice Internet, and Ip Engineering Services for UK businesses find out how Spitfire can impel your company at Spitfire Dot Coach UK. Music in the program is sponsored by epoch sound perfect music for audio and video productions you with your favorite song show that is the naked scientists with Phil Sansom and with me Chris Smith and this week more data has been generated in the past five years than in all previous human history. That's former. You came minister for Universities and Science David Willetts speaking on the naked scientists five years ago back in two thousand fifteen. Since then computing power and data generation of continue to accelerate so much. So in fact that we're now measuring data in zetter abides, and if you don't know what is that about is that's one followed by twenty one zeros and we estimate that there is now more data being processed than stars in the known universe, and so we're taking a look at this huge explosion including how it's used and misused to make real world predictions why privacy is such a crucial problem and how automating decisions is changing us as both individuals and societies. Recently here in the UK, the government attempted to use an algorithm to generate replacement grades for public exams that got interrupted by the covid nineteen pandemic. As anyone who was across the headlines, then will remember the results were catastrophic. Many students claim they were being treated unfairly, and there were claims of people being cheated of cherished university places. As result, the government were forced to backtrack. But this is far from the only critical social decision that's being automated nowadays as I hurt from law and computer science expert Karen Young Air is a long history of using statistics to inform all sorts of allocation decisions. The problem happened because someone somewhere lost sight of critical importance of the sesing, each student on their own merit, and that of course is grossly unfair and hints. We saw the outcry that emerged after those grades were published. This idea then a of using what's happened in the past to automate decisions about the future is this something that happens in other places that I wouldn't expect. It happens everywhere. This is one of the really serious problems. We haven't yet been able to find a way to address because if we take past patterns of shopping behavior, for example, to build a profile of what it is you like what you don't like then we're going to imagine that you liked the same kinds of things tomorrow as you did yesterday and that's very benign example but to use. One that I find quite to illustrate this problem a number of years ago in fact, instead of research is Kinda. Melon teed an experiment partitioning one thousand simulated uses who were asked to search for jobs on the Internet and they allowed them to search way a man. I had the look at the same news sites to see what kinds of personalized ads were set up to them. What they found is that male uses was shown high paying job ads six times more frequently than female uses on the assumption that the historic data showed that women do not acquire high-paying jobs and because they do not click on high paying jobs, the assumption is that women are not interested in high paying jobs and like I don't have the capacity to make the criteria of high paying jobs. Wow. So you're saying that not only do you do you lose the fact that people can be unpredictable but also you you get stereotypes. Absolutely absolutely. There is a basic stereotyping logic when you use historic data as a predictor of the future. Is that something that you can fix by just doing better at your statistics, your analytics. I'm not convinced that we can. How could you eliminate in a non arbitrary non subjective way historic bias from your data sets You would actually be making it up. You would have a vision of your ideal society and you would try and reflect it by your data set accordingly, but you would effectively be doing that on the basis of arbitrate judgment. We've we've talked about getting a job we talked about crucial exam results. Are there other areas where this kind of thing is a problem for? Crucial life moments or decisions. Yeah. So I think one of the things that has emerged in recent years in particular is public sector decision making particularly in relation to eligibility for certain kinds of public service has increasingly been automated has actually happened in the UK like automated universal credit or something. Or what am I did universal credit is unnecessary `lustration. The robot debt fiasco that you may have heard of strata where attempts were made to claim back predicted over payments and the number many many thousands of people deprived to benefit checks, and in fact, one young man even committed suicide because he was erroneously slate charged. Is this technology a straight up bug there because it seems like it can be quite useful for chewing. Huge complicated tedious task. It's absolutely true and cookie tasteful systems a wonderful at automating very repetitive straightforward tasks in their survey tasks that we should celebrate when they become automated that I think what we need to attend to is thinking about these. Technologies as complex socio technical systems particularly when the consequences a concrete for people's. And of course, the rich are able to escape. These kinds of systems can usually speak to a human want to beat one, and there are many other stories of algorithms. Horror shows. If you like with people have been essentially trapped will find impossible to challenge the outcomes that have being produced from these systems because they simply don't have an entry point. Do, we have a proper plan to train people to be really good at using data an automation like you're talking about and being trained to figure out when the right place to use them. I think we have yet. They go Karen Young from the University of Birmingham. Now, much of the automation that Cairns been describing their relies on enormous amounts of data collected about and during people's day-to-day activities. In fact, the current estimates are prodigious. They suggest will produce in the region of ten, six, billion bits of information just in two thousand twenty that is a mind boggling amount. In fact, if you tried to record each of those bits by hand, you'd easily hit the end of the universe itself before you got anywhere near finishing. But with each of us generating so much information about ourselves, our lives and the world around us in this way, privacy is considered to be shrinking, and that's the subject of a new book is called. Privacy is power. It's out this week from Oxford University's career valise, and she's with us now Hello Chris. Hello was in the book tell us about it. Well it's a book about the State of privacy today how the surveillance economy came about and why we should end the trading personal data and how to do it. What's actually getting documented? I said that we're getting lots of data recorded about ourselves but what people actually looking recording documenting Almost everything you do online or while you have your smartphone near, you is being recorded and that includes sensitive information like who your friends and family are where you live who sleep with. If you're having an affair where you work your credit history, you're purchasing power you're diseases, your personality traits, your sexual orientation and fantasies your political tendencies whether you've had an abortion whether you do drugs how will you drive what you search for what you buy? What videos you watch? You up at night how well you sleep whether you exercise and much much more. My goodness sounds terribly alarming. How on earth? Do they know all that? Because thought, this stuff was supposed to be anonymous. It turns out that it's incredibly easy to identify data. Even if you only have two data points say location dates about where somebody sleeps and somebody works. That's enough because usually there's only one person who sleeps and works where you do and that's you, and so that's how they can figure out if you sleeping where you shouldn't so to speak exactly or two phones together more than. They should be it's all about inferences. At what point did it become a free for all the people could just grab this information and who has in fact dotty when we say they are collecting this information who? It started happening in two thousand and one especially with Google and the development of personalized ads. But there's a, there's a big jump between personal ads and where I spend the night, well, not really companies want to know as much as possible about you. So they can target you as precisely as possible. So say if you're having an affair, maybe you are interested in certain kinds of APPs that allow you to be secret. and. What's really changed, and if this has been going on since two thousand one, this is not really a new problem. It becomes riskier and riskier. The more data we have and people are having more experiences in a survey carried out with Sean Brooke About Ninety two percent of people have had some kind of buying experience with privacy from data theft to public humiliation. Privacy is important because data is toxic. It's dangerous to have it out there than there are many ways in which it can be misused. At what point did I give permission for all of this data to be collected is it just assumed that it's okay to make these sorts of data collections then? You didn't give meaningful consent by the time we realized it was happening the data economy was well developed and even today Google since personal information about you well, before you consent about any kind of personal yet. But I thought that's what. Our friends at the European, union with their GDP are the device intended legally to stop this sort of thing happening is. Just, not working, then it has helped, but it's not enough I because if you can send, it's not informed consent because you don't know what kind of inferences people can make from your data not even data scientists can no, and secondly many times it's not working because companies are not strict enough, and so sometimes your day tickets sent before you consent. That sort of what's happened with Uber isn't it? Because there's a report in the. Times newspaper recently showing that Uber at least in the UK have agreed to share passenger details with the police. Yes, that is concerning a lot of questions arise as a result but one of them is whether it's Ok for the government to be encouraging certain services that might be bad for society overall. If you think for example of Uber's problems with safety and with employment, just because it provides the government with a surveillance opportunity. So. Is it a lost battle? Then? Is it too late for me? I'm as well just resign myself to the fact that Google facebook and all the others know more about me than I do or actually can we start to do something about this now? It's definitely not a lost battle. We're just starting I think we're going through a process of civilisation and we're turning the internet into a livable unbearable place. So in some ways, we're better now than we were five years ago because there's more regulation, it's not enough but it matters and every time you protect your privacy, it matters you don't know which data point will be the one that cause you harm. So anything you can do. Helps and it's also making a statement about what you stand for and you'd be surprised to what extent governments and companies are sensitive to these expressions of dissatisfaction they're listening. Let's hope they are Chris Thank. You very much. Indeed s crystalise. She's at the University of Oxford and you can read her book privacy is power. It's out now. We're midway through a tour of the changing world of data automation. We've looked at some of the automated decisions happening around us and problems of bias and privacy, and now we're turning to the online world. Well thanks to the Internet looks like today we have more choices than ever before there are lots of films to watch their team books that you can read places you can go and visit people you can find talk to but the fact is there's so much information online. We can only ever see a tiny fraction of it is like an iceberg. And so most tech companies actually track everything that you do on their platform, and then they built this sort of digital Dapo Ganger of who you are, and they then compare that model of you to other people and try and figure out what it is that they think that you would like best and Kartik Asanga researches the consequences of this process, the warden school at the University of Pennsylvania. So I spoke to him about who really therefore is in control here. We. All believe that we're making our own choices. But all of my research shows that's not the reality. For example, eighty percent of viewing our streamed on net flicks originated from automated recommendations at you do the statistic is very similar rose to third of the sales, at Amazon, originate from automated recommendations and the vast majority of dating matches. On apps, like tinder are initiated by Algorithms really if you think about it, there are very few decisions. We make these days that aren't touched by algorithms that. Are Built on top of the big data. So how all algorithms actually doing what they do and and what are the risks. I. I won't acknowledge that algorithms create a tremendous amount of value which of US wants to go back to whatever the TV network decides we need to watch but at the same time, these algorithms are modernist. Objective in. Decision makers they are prone. To many of the same by sees we associated with humans. For example, recent case where algorithms used in courtrooms in the US to defendants risk of reoffending it would shown that these algorithms are biased against black defendants and to be clear it's not that there's a human program who's programming these vices in rather the algorithms are learning from data. So in the past, if there's a race bias in policing system or the criminal sentencing system, this algorithm will learn to assume that black defendant is more likely to reoffend, but also these algorithms can be sussed out by savvy humans who basically work out how they work. Yeah I. think that's a good way to look at it. You know if you look at the world of advertising and marketing. Even before computers before digital technologies. Most Marketing and advertising was focused on how we I don't WanNA use the word con people into making decisions but certainly, how do we pursue people the new version of it is how do we burswood algorithms to put us in front of the people I view this mostly as a positive in the sense that this exercise helps ensure that the most relevant websites come in front. Of consumers but at the same time, that is a dark side of it you know some of these companies are focused on how do we fool the algorithm into thinking our page is more relevant than it really is. There's an element of gray here and one again needs to be cautious about you know how is the Algorithm making the decision? Why did this particular recommendation get made? Is there not a danger that this is narrowing our choices because it just force feeds monotonous diet of what we like. And makes us less adventurous less likely to think outside the box and as a result while life may seem simpler, it's potentially poorer for it. We losing our free will here. Yeah, in fact, in my book, a humans guide to machine intelligence in that I, argue that most of us really do not have the free will that we think we do, and if you think about who we are at the end of the day, it's a sum total of the choices we made what we read what we bought an ultimately shape does to become who we are today. To be clear again, I'm not saying we need to become luddites and go back to work before algorithms. The analogy I'll for is that it's like early caveman discovering fire and saying, well, this can be tricky to control. Let me stop using fire instead you learn to use fire you learned to control fire you learn to have things like the Fire Department that can extinguish fires. You maybe keep even fire extinguishers at home and saw and you use fire. So to books to read this week, Chris's book all about if you want to stay self silly about how much people know about you without you realizing it but also a cartoon Casanova who hearing from their his book humans guide to Machine Intelligence. He's at the University of Pennsylvania. Now whenever you're endlessly scrolling down facebook then or twitter or instagram whatever your poison. These platforms are only showing you the stuff that you're most likely to engage with as Raskin is the man who invented that endless scroll function and he says that those algorithms have gotten so good at what they do they make us addicted to this pseudo reality that the online world. Is showing us. He's here from the Center for humane technology as a welcome. Can you tell me what is it? You're saying that these algorithms are doing so I think it's important to step back and say you know we we we call these things, social networks, social sites or just tick Tock Reddit facebook, and that actually hides the true nature of what they are. These are immense digital habitats in which post covid we are living over one half of our waking lives. And the shape of our environments what we tell the machines they want from must have profound implications not just for our behavior, but for our values themselves, the story of Ai is a very old one. It's the be careful careful what you wish for because whatever you wish for the ads is going to go off and do independent of how you wish for it to happen right like you. Will Get your intentions wrong and what we wished for was, can we grab as much of your attention as possible in fact, how Google facebook twitter they make their money is by selling certainty in the ability to get you to take certain actions which were different than the actions you were taking before. So as they've asked for more and more attention, it starting to override because these are digital habitats. Who We think we are and I felt it as digital overload than digital addiction unable to spend time with the people we care about most to the place where over fifty two percent of kids in the US when they are asked, what do you want to be when they grow up? They say not astronaut not scientists but youtube influence her it has changed who art culture is. There's that phrase that comes up lot here, which is that if you're not paying for product, you are the product. Yeah. That's exactly right. The question everyone should be asking themselves is how much did you pay for facebook recently? Like Oh. Yeah I haven't I haven't paid anything. Why is that? Then the first answer you'll get is, will the trying to sell you ads trying to get you to buy something and then the first reaction to that it's like well, I sort of like those ads and that completely misses the point. They're collecting massive amounts of behavioral surf plus data to make models of you like a little voodoo doll, which they can prod and poke to see how you respond to get you to take specific actions. Sometimes, that's click on an ad, but often it's just get you to do anything because that puts you in a reactive state sixty, four percent of all Cunanan conspiracy joins on facebook come from the facebook recommendation Algorithm itself. This is a hugely popular conspiracy, right? Yeah. It is spread like wildfire through the US lots of these conspiracies are taking hold. Across the Internet and why is that? Well, it's because if you short attention spans of the entire world all at once we stop reading as much in creates the conditions which anger and the worst parts of human nature are reflected back to ourselves, and it's not like technology is an existential threat to humanity. But the worst of society is absolutely an existential threat to humanity and what technology is doing is showing our worst versions ourselves back to ourselves as it feels like we've always been worried about technology ever since they speed technology you can read. Little newspaper off Ed's from the eighteen hundreds or whatever that say people are spending too much time reading I mean what's different about this? Totally and we should be intellectually honest because as you say like newspapers bicycles, we've often had moral panics that come with new technology and that's because new technology changes things it makes disruptions it alters the status quo and the argument here is not the technology as bad. I've spent my entire lifetime building technology I still do it. You know we've always had persuasion we've always had propaganda we've often always had advertisement. What's new here is that we are now living inside of the advertisement leaving inside of the persuasion living inside of the technology and that means it's effect on us are exponentially bigger than it was before when we Wake up we look at our phones before we go to sleep, we look at our phones. The Way we interact with our friends are through our phones and through a for profit companies decisions that has never happened before and on the other side of the screen are thousand Engineers Times, a massive supercomputer that news more about you than your lawyer, your priest, your therapist combined that kind of asymmetric power is new to put it another way as a Wilson said, the problem that we're facing now is that we have Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike technology, and we do not have the godlike wisdom to wheel this technology yet. As if I'm reading you right then the things like the rise of fake news aren't actually a natural consequence of having these algorithms get better and better. Feeding stuff that makes us click and actually as you were told, Game I had not one but three notifications buzz on my phone in my pocket which freaks me out a little bit. How we'll live in this world is there any way to not well? So the first thing to note is there are absolutely things that you can do that can help. But Even, if you don't use social media, you still live in a world that does it sort of like when you're in the middle of pandemic, you can exercise you can stay home. There are things you can do to protect your health, but you still live in a world which is affected by the global pandemic that said because it's often like gas lighting. It's sort of like say, Hey, to solve climate change, you should not use straws and fly. Lasts, but it's really not the the consumer sector which is driving the most as climate change of you tips turn your phone on Grey scale turn off all notifications from anything that is not a human always ask like if something feels like it's pushing emotional buttons, maybe it is and finally always wonder like, why are we so angry at each other maybe the other side how could they possibly believe what they believe? Are they seeing what I'm seeing an? Important thing to note is they aren't seeing what you're seeing their seeing something, different swap phones and look each other's news feeds and see how different the world is as a thank you so much that's as Raskin who's also in a new documentary on the subject called the social dilemma worth a watch. Thanks also to Karen, young charisma, the lease and Kartik Ho senator. In this program, we've explored some of the consequences of data and the automated world. The misuse, the privacy intrusions, and the distorted online reality, and now that you're aware of them, you'll know when to push back and now we've got just enough time for question of the week and time is of the essence here because either Higginbotham has been against the clock answering. This question from David bought message of time would you use in traveling through space as they week month or year would become meaningless and how does it affect the body clock? Also sense of days nights weeks and months is so ingrained. It's almost hard to imagine. So who better to answer than someone who's experienced space travel firsthand I put the question to form NASA astronaut Steve. Swanson. What measurement of time I use if I wasn't along spaceship Psychologically it's best to keep what we're used to in that. So you can still celebrate birthdays and stuff like that. 'cause we could then kind of remember holy are. Very important to have a long to. What effect might being space have on your body clock I asked sleep scientist Cassie Hilditch who works in collaboration with NASA scientists I we need to understand how our body clock or Acadian rhythm works. So the timing of many of the processes in our bodies programmed by cluster of cells in the brain and one of their main jobs is to coordinate when our body should be asleep and when we should be awake, our internal body clock is set to be about twenty four hours but is usually a little off. This means we need to set our clocks every day to keep in sync with the light dark cycle of our environment and nobody does that by using sunlight as a time Q. But went on body clock is out of synch. It can affect our ability to sleep to stay alert and ultimately lead to long term health consequences on the International Space Station or ISS astronauts and cosmonauts currently having to deal with this very problem, the Isis or the Earth about every ninety minutes. So the crew on board see the sunrise and Sunset Sixteen Times Per Earth Day this as you can imagine some pretty confusing time cues to the body clock and can cause a disruption of the. Different systems that usually synchronized in the body on the ISS there their studies going on trying the use of specialized lighting to help align the body clocks of astronauts to a twenty four hour rhythm by mimicking the light buttons on Earth. If this is successful, cassie says, this technique could possibly be adopted to space craft including for deep spaceflight in the future, and we're also starting to think about how we might live on Mas, which has different day length of twenty, four hours and fifty nine minutes. Luckily. This is pretty close to twenty four hours and study suggests that we might be able to entrain to or synchronize with this motion day but we might still need some special writing to help us thanks Kassian Steve. Next. Week we'll be taking a cold shower while looking for the answer to this question from Margaret Why why? I can work in the yard and be covered in sweat for hours and only stink a little. But reveal one sensitive personal thing to a group of friends and immediately stink to high heaven. So what do you reckon email Krista, the naked scientists dot com. You can join in the debate on our foreign. That's at naked scientists dot com for slash. Forum. All, if you've got a question of your own, then there's a simple web form on our site. It's a naked scientists, dot com forward slash question, and that is it for this week on the naked scientists do join us next week when ahead of World Vegetarian Day we're asking what it might mean for the world to move away from meet the naked scientists comes to you from the Institute for Continuing Education at the University of Cambridge and is supported by Rolls Royce. And from all of us here at the naked scientists team until next time. Goodbye. What's new impact casting? Here's what we love courtesy of CASS recommends. On a scale of one to ten with one being completely straight. And Ten being completely gay what number are you? You know I don't think that you should rank how they are I guess up and you know that's just a little of a red. Flag for me. Come on come out. A weekly podcast where RIA lesbians till they're real coming out stories. You can find come on come out on your favorite podcast check out now listen. Cash. Recommends.

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Regina Benjamin on women in healthcare

A Podcast of One's Own with Julia Gillard

38:15 min | 1 year ago

Regina Benjamin on women in healthcare

"I'm Julia Gillard and this is a podcast of one's own. I'm offended by the lack of women in positions of leadership and the way those that do make it a traitor. To Die I helped lead the global. Institute for Women's leadership at King's College London headquartered in Virginia, Woolf building. In, Nineteen Twenty Nine Virginia said she spied women authors to have the space to write in a room of one's own. Here I want women leaders, too, have a podcast one. Today way coordinating three different times signs across the World Australia. Mark Producers in London and a very special guest in Alabama in America. Regina Benjamin was the eighteenth surgeon general of the United States from two thousand and nine to twenty thirteen. She was appointed by President Obama and as America's doctor was the operational head of the US Public Health Service Commissioned Corps and lading spokesperson on matters of Public Health to the American. People I'm delighted to welcome her. Despite it being seven am here in Australia. Can you explain to those who aren't so familiar with the term you surge in general and what it means. We had Sally Davies on here a few weeks ago. The former chief medical officer for England, how similar is the chief medical officer role and the surgeon general role, and what does the surgeon general role conduct have a military connection, so her role is a little bit more like the Secretary of Health for the United, states. My role as surgeon general. General has two parts. One is as America's doctor, and with that I would explain in present to the American people, the best science this available about a public health issue at the time, and so trying to get people to be healthier and fit in things like anti-smoking increase walking. We had a national prevention strategy the social determinants of health all things to keep Americans healthy, and so that's one role as America's doctor. The second roll of the surgeon general is. is to lead the United States. Public Health Service, which is a branch of the military, and we're one of the branches. Don't carry a gun. We will shoot you, but we should you with a needle toback sonate. The public health is like the Navy protects our shores. The Air Force protects our skies. We protect the public's health in so I had sixty five hundred officers under my command that was spread out throughout the United States, and throughout the world particularly. Particularly, all officers, so physicians and nurses scientists to do surveillance, and to be available to protect Americans health, but through by protecting the world's held in so whenever there's a breakout and outbreak or something of some infectious disease or something you'll hear the CDC deployed a group. Those would be our officers who had go. They are in and try to contain whatever that infectious disease might be so the whole purpose of the public health services to protect the public's help. And from that unique vantage point that you've had as US surgeon general. What would you say to our listeners about the challenges facing healthcare in the United States that self? Life after Kobe has changed, but pre-coded in currently as well we've had. The real challenges have been around the noncommunicable diseases, things like obesity heart, disease, hypertension, diabetes, those that are non infectious, really are starting to take its toll on citizens in healthcare system, and we're seeing it not just in the US. We're seeing it in other countries, as well is starting to become a big part of various nations budgets, because they're becoming chronic diseases and using up resources and people are becoming much more ill and dine more frequently because. Because of these in, so we really need to get a handle on how to handle these chronic diseases in these underlying as we call, noncommunicable diseases are in CDs. Is the World Health? Organization calls them and we are of course talking during the days of the coronavirus pandemic, which has particularly hit America heart. Why do you think it Spain so intense for the United States and particularly for places like New York, which around the world, where the where in Australia role London or anywhere else was saying so much coverage of? Well, it's like any other. Outbreak of infectious disease. If we follow the public health, guidelines and guidances would tend to be able to handle them. Unfortunately early on this was not contained. Normally, we would try to contain an infectious disease in this particular job. Nineteen was not contained in, so it started spreading around the world in when you get into areas where there is large populations in close quarters. That's where you're gonNA. See the versed. Versed earlier outbreaks in that sort of what we saw with Italy and then New York in some of the other places here in the US in the US. There is another part of that that I was telling you about these noncommunicable diseases because we have them. We also have what we call. Health disparities around certain populations in our minority populations particularly are African. Americans are Hispanics and native Americans have. been hit very very hard early. On in the Kobe nineteen, we were very clear that elderly people and people with underlying health conditions were were at higher risk, and so we understood that so knowing that some of these conditions like hypertension, diabetes and strokes really affects the minority communities. It wasn't a surprise that we started to war cases within the minority communities, but what we're really surprised by was how sick people were coming in and how fast they were deteriorating, and how quickly they were dying, and they were dying much more in so the numbers of deaths in the. The minority communities much higher among the Board of the American Heart Association and what we found that the heart association is at underlying cardiac. Arrhythmias seem to be correlated with people doing poorly in people going very poorly when they get the Kobe nineteen hours in Seoul the heart. Association is put in a two point. Five million dollar rapid response grant to try to figure out. Is there anything that we can do with these underlying cardiac arrhythmias? People don't even know they have an irregular heartbeat. People with high blood pressure may not even know. They have high blood pressure. Diabetics may not know they're pre diabetic, so you're seeing these groups of people being affected much more and more frequently in there, also the people who were on the front. They're the folks that are working in. The hospital was in a nursing homes it working in the food industry. They're doing what we call the essential jobs, and yet they're the most vulnerable, and so we have to be very vigilant about making sure we protect them in. Give them as much protection as possible with P P. as social distancing in the things that we really have to look out for them as much as we can. And as someone who spent a lifetime getting accurate health messages to people across all of the. The things that you've done. How do you feel when you see the president of the United States telling people that he's taking medicine. GonNa help fought the virus, even though the science says differently making statements about getting disinfectant inside People's bodies. What does that make you think and feel Lino? I'm a physician in my Khokar is always been around the science and I just have to continue to try to give people vests information based on science the best that we have available in just keep telling them that inches. Hopefully they'll listen. These are serious times you know these conditions that I just described around the health disparities. Will those same conditions the hypertension? Diabetes prediabetes. Those are also what we see in the rural communities, the very prevalent there, so it's not just genetic, and we have a saying here in the US that your zip code is a better predictor of your health outcomes than your genetic code, and so it's really where you are in in those underlying conditions in so as a nation. We're really at risk in, so we have to teach people how to. To protect themselves and how to socially distance how to wash their hands in so when I see leaders out there not taking this or seemingly taken this as serious as I would like them to. It's it's very disheartening in when you were surgeon. General were the pandemic practice exercises. Did you go through kind of drills as to how the US would respond? Did you imagine that it could be like miss? We did go through drills. We always did drills and we did preparations and preparedness. I came in on the Obama Administration which is right after the Bush administration in the Bush administration was very strong own preparedness, because we had gone through nine eleven, and they had done tremendous amount of work around that instill the Obama. Administration continued prepared. And we had a number of things in place, but we didn't just do drills. We also had the H One n one outbreak in so we had reality there, and just as I was leaving. We Heady Bola, so we had real light drills. If you will d think the license from those times from the to infectious diseases that new faced in your time as surgeon, general g think lessons will learn. That are informing the response now I hope so I know that people that are still there. The sign to things that are are still calling on that in trying to build on what we learned in the information is they're trying to build on the information in every. Every outbreak three things different, and so we have to change as it changes, but we base on what we learned before was the lessons learned. We can do better and attack some of these things much faster if we really build on what we've known already I WANNA. Take you back at your childhood. You grew up in Mobile Alabama in the nineteen. If is when you were a child, when did you? I think to yourself? Maybe this isn't a will stay for women. And when did you? I, think to you? So that may be there a particular issues for African American women and girls, so I grew up in down here. We call it mobile all our mobile. Must Obey from their little rule. Part of the of the town in in Alabama and Alabama is known for role of being in the south. We're part of the civil rights movement. Birmingham was kind of the center of it, so I grew up understanding all around of a about the civil rights in the sixties and stuff, so but for me. I don't know that I ever thought about it. That way I. had some very strong women who were my influencers, my mom and my my grandmother, my grandmother was she was a property owner. She own land in many. Many, blacks didn't own land, so she owned land, and so whenever something would happen. Someone in town be arrested oftentimes for things that didn't exist. She would bailed them out because she could put up the land for collateral or whatever and she she could post bond in, so she was kind of a part of the community. She always knew that it was important for us to. Always be a part of community, but always be available in help others. If they needed it in, they would be there for you if you would also be there for them, so community was always part of it, but she was also a businesswoman. She ran her own business in, so she was kind of a inspiration in always thought that was the way it was supposed to be I didn't know the difference my mother worked. My parents were separated when I was two good Catholics. They never got divorced. They were separated, so I always was around. You know very strong women who were constantly. Doing things in they had high expectations of themselves and of me in, so it didn't occur to me I just knew I was supposed to do what I could for whatever the situation was in his four as thinking ever different I never thought. I was better than other people, but always knew I was just as. In so it wasn't a thing you dwelled on. Just continue to do what you needed to do. Whatever Day it was so and why select medicine you were the first member of your family to attend medical school and you've said before that you had never seen a black doctor before you went to college, so it's got to have taken a lot of passion. Gots to think I can do this dogma native. Saying anybody like me, do wish. Where did that come from? Actually not a you know. I went to this Catholic College Xavier University. In new, Orleans in it's. Always joined clubs and join organizations. My sororities, my club. The Most Popular Club was med in, so I premed in, so it was almost just. I always say it's divine intervention. It was nothing that idea so edgy. Join a club you go to harrys meetings. You do the things you had to keep a certain grade point average to be in a club, so all those things when along and when it was time to start to interviewing I, interviewed for medical school, and you know I got accepted it was you compete to say if you're GonNa who could get the most most acceptances to medical school by your into your junior year so? More than anything, and then all of a sudden you know I had to decide to go to medical school or not, and of course I, did and then I was in medical school. I guess I second year before I ever made Mike. Must Abi owner test in I. Think when I made that be medical school is pretty competitive I realize that. There's nothing else I'd WanNa do accept this so I. Better not getting more BS. Serious, you know I was where I was supposed to be, and I think as I say the Lord takes you where you need to be in today. I could think of being nothing else. An intensive a life decisions. When you became a doctor, you could have. Gone on worked in a flashy hospital in a big city, but you did. The complete opposite of that is set up assault by medical, practicing a tiny rural fishing village where eighty percent of your patients were below the poverty line. What made you decide to do that? Again I wanted to get back as close to home as I could. When I went to school, I didn't have. Money to pay for medical school and also didn't have any way to borrow money, so I did a program called the National Health Service Corps, which is a in the US as a HHS program. Where you go to medical school, they pay for it, and then you serve a year for every year they paid for in underserved community so I had to go to an underserved community, but I wanted to get as close to home as possible in so that's how I got to Alabama, you know the National Service Corps sent me to this Little Town of Bilo battery, which is about thirty minutes from my hometown. Right across the bay new. It's a pretty place, but it's A. A poor place and I found a community of working poor poor to port or Ford medical care, but they were too rich to qualify for our program. We call Medicaid which is a federal program, so I like the people that I wanted to practice medicine there, but I quickly learned at practicing medicine wasn't what I call just so enough to. Shark Bites ahead to deal with what I call land shark to regulators all the paperwork. All the things that you don't think about when you're going into medicine also learned that my prescription pad wasn't enough that people had other issues like clean water housing. It's ripping town so the way people were. The the search were clean their oil. Change oil in their boats, they would empty the oil in the water. Put more oil in the boat, so we just put together some barrels right there at the docks in. They just emptied in barrels in the water started clearing up. It's just simple little solutions that we found and they were just number of a little things. I found that. Is helping the community become healthier because that's what they want as well. It wasn't that they didn't want. No one had ever kinda showed them in so I've been involved in that community now for thirty years and we've gone through lots of things like hurricane, Katrina and couple of other hurricanes in different disasters on that signed. It's not just sewing up. The shot bought that something that Australians could relate to. Blur always asking me about the risk of getting bitten by shock in Australia, or until them, really not very hot, but in this story about how you serve your community at really the sacrifices you've might have been extraordinary. The clinic that you built was destroyed by Hurricane Katrina in two thousand five years, said about rebuilding, and then shockingly. Before to reopen, it was destroyed a second time by fire, and you rebuilt again including mortgage in your own home to help finance the rebuild now that speaks of a real driving mission. Can you tell us what's kitchen? You energized and prepared to that remarkable Ito. It sounds remarkable, but after Katrina. You're right. We had we were going to reopen the day after new years, but that night it burned to the ground in so I was there with the far people fire marshalls in the building was simmering in. It was just devastating, but I had one of my patients in remember. This was after Katrina so everybody at lost their. Their homes twenty five hundred people two thousand had lost her homes, so they didn't have anything, but one of my elderly patients sent me an envelope by her granddaughter, and it had seven dollars in it, and it said to help build a rebuild a clinic and I was like if she can find seven dollars. I was going to find the wrist because she didn't really have and so, that was really why kept knowing his patients and people like her? And that's what makes you know you have a reason to be there? In hopefully I can make a difference by being here and so at the community of two thousand five hundred. Thousand Plus Times in Katrina. Katrina, but it's very devastating for the entire Gulf coast in so I actually went with foundation over to kit. Thailand, to look at how they had responded to the Nami, which it happened a year before because we had similar industry, we receive food in tourist, and that's what they were in so to try to learn how they responded in what I learned was that? There was some differences they had lost tons of lives in so one of the statements they made about the US was that we determine our disastrous by number of dollars lost, but they determined their disastrous by the number of lives lost, and that really is true in what really matters is lives in so. When I came back. You know I was in. A, good perspective on that, but we also learned that you could do things input groups together, so we had our little trailer which we were operating out that we'd have people. The volunteer groups would have a place to meet every morning. Coordinate their volunteer efforts, so one group would have. The volunteers removed debris. Another one would help rebuild someone's house. Another like Habitat Unity with would build the house and someone else would come in. Hang the curtains and help paint, so everybody could. Could share in the community, the people themselves could sign up for what they needed in so just a little coordination in so we became of a center for rebuilding in the Gulf coast, but all is jammed applied in all of these you as a woman as a doctor as a community leader that they have been people who have reacted to you differently by stone. Uganda I do think there there certainly been different reactions, both in bad, not bad, but good in not. So as a physician, oftentimes as a female physician, we tend to have a little bit more of a a communist to us in a little slow slower nece, but I know some some men who are that way, too, but but in general, and so people are maybe a little bit more comfortable at times from that standpoint, but also as a strong woman. Some men are very intimidated by that in. So that's also a challenge is trying to make sure that in early days for example I. I would have to make sure voice was heard, so we talked about my clinic and all of that, but all of that same time I was part of the American medical. Association and I was going up through the ranks with that so I was a student. Then I was a young physician leader, and then I became the first African American woman to be elected to its board of trustees in back in our state I was the first woman President I was the first african-american president. In so those were challenging times because they had never had a woman in never had an African American, so it really Kinda. Kinda tough in so I would have to. Make. Sure was heard so on sitting around the board table. I'd say something. Nobody would pay attention right. In. They wanted guy say the same thing in only so that was great. You, why didn't you? At first I? Get a little not so happy about it, but then I. learned that okay I'm going to use that to my advantage so I would say it or Tell one of the guys something you should say this any. Would he get all this attention, but he owed. By this time he was in my debt and I was about to them in so then as that started to build up your own. Worth within that bore table. Then, I was able to start to get some credibility into. Be Able to move forward. But hopefully, young women don't have to do that sort of thing today because we've been there did it for them, but it was not. The guys were trying to ignore you. They just never thought you existed. You just work prison for them in head to make myself present in so now. I mean I don't have to do that at all. Of course, because there's no question about being imprisoned is I'll speak up in insane something quicker probably before anybody would think about it, but are also remember having people having guys in the Medical Association everybody with guys in most of them were over sixty. Men and they had kids my age, and so it just having them to remember that we're at the table sitting at that table and say you're talking about women I'm saying well. Why aren't there any women here? They are the other thing that you so knowing me was as I became a little bit more. I guess successful present in within that arena when I'd say. Say but what about other women? Let's say. Oh but you're different in your special like no, I'm not I'm just like everybody else. So why don't we get some more women? Why don't we get some? Wherever Americans is like? You can't put me aside marginalizing and say you've got enough that kind of early days with Kevin Knowing me a little I'm sure you've been through. And when you were appointed US surgeon general. Did you feel some of that? In the reaction to use some Jane reactions, they will school some common trae, suggesting that you went the right person for the job that you. I'll tell you why I don't mind. I'll lay that to you. I'll be glad to tell you what so yes. I was nominated in then a little different than nomination. Now we couldn't speak. We had to be quiet in until the nomination went through. We couldn't speak to the press. We couldn't defend ourselves in so everything they kept throwing at me. was was not sticking in so one of the things he basically said was that I was too fat. I was obese in much too fat to be surgeon general in that. Why would you have somebody who's overweight as the surgeon general, so there were several people. And groups and organizations, of course who came to my defense in pointed out that there were a few men by predecessors who were much more robust than I was, and that that was very coach chauvinistic, so the other thing is I I decided that that's fine, because obesity is a problem in took, it hit on because that we needed to not be telling. People are trying to shame people. People that you can be healthy at any weight, you just be your best and started exercising. Do things that we you need to do, but you can be healthier. No matter what you are still, but that was one of them were things when I became surgeon general. It's the branch military and it was pretty male dominated, and so while we hit a few females there, it was still times. Be Challenging, and I would try to make things better for the females that were in in the public health service so that they wouldn't have to go through these sort of things little subtle things here. What kind of changes did try? Mike said that it was easy women. Can you give us a sense of that well in the Public Health Service, they were just day-to-day routine things like how you wear a uniform when you wear your uniform. What type of uniform because I set the uniform of the day? You were you here. You have to put you hear back and all this kind of little stuff that had nothing to do with your your ability to work those sort of things, but also more importantly was promotions in what it took to get promoted. There's a certain number of things you you have to do, and how you take the right courses how you get put in the right places so that you can be on the road to promotion if nobody tells you, you won't know that. It's the same thing with ten years the same thing with other things. If you're not on the right path, you won't. Won't get promoted in yet. You may be the best person for the job. So just getting people in the right positions on the right track in the right trajectory, so that they could be promoted or at least hold their own in an could stand up to any anyone else so that they can be promoted. One of the things you've been prepared to do is arguing in favor of women's reproductive rights in health, an particularly support women's access to abortion get you are deeply religious person and a Catholic. Have you found it challenging to square your face with that advocacy for women? No, I think it fits. I'm not A. I'm not a proponent of pro abortion, but I am a proponent of of women's rights and God gave us a right to Adam neighbor right to make a decision I think we have to give everyone the best information, and they have to make the best decision for themselves, and it's not inconsistent with Catholic. Social teachings which don't push our religion on other people, but we do give you the information. Hopefully you'll make good choices in good choices for you in for your family, and during the days of the pandemic. What's die in the life of Jane? Beijing lock right now have throat is us. Oh, it's like zoom. Zoom, another zoom, equivalent or bluejeans whatever their caller Microsoft meets whatever it's, it's one after the other. It's been interesting. I just did a graduation commencement last week last Friday for medical school via. conferencing. which was very different? It's like, but it was. It was quite interesting in that I I did the speech, but you make the speech much shorter. Even in real life, people face to face. People want him to be short, but this Ito sitting in front of a screen is need to be short, but we also did the hippocratic oath together which. which I thought was great to be able to say that because it's so important that you when you take that oath to become a physician that you're swearing before God that you're GonNa. Put your patients I and so it's really important that we took it, but we were able to do that with a video conference as well and what's next you next? Next in your life so right now I have a health policy research center. In Alabama here that we're trying to address social determinants of health, so we've been doing this for about four five years, and in trying to decrease those things. I talked about earlier on the chronic diseases. How why do the states that border the Gulf of Mexico? Alabama Mississippi Louisiana? Louisiana Texas and Florida have the worst health outcomes in the united. States when we have some of the best medical schools in the best physicians in the country yet, our health rankings are forty nine fifty in all them under forty in so the lowest health rankings in so something's causing it and I suspect that is probably has to do with health policies. And what I call, the political determines of health as well because those policies really do impact people's lives, so the number of sidewalks impact. How much you're exercising whether you're your financial health is directly related to your physical health. The number we've found like the number of liquor stores per square mile or per block, really relates to absenteeism from work domestic violence. All those all you'd have to do is just changed the number of liquor stores not to get rid of them all, but the density of them, and so things like that. We're doing research to show that we common sense tells you, but you need science and research to show that it. It is or isn't in that. If you change those things they will, they'll matter, so we work on trying to improve some of those social determinants in also trying to make our communities healthier places to live in that way. People and companies and things are WANNA come in. have their the industry's there in? We can improve the lives of the people in the community. I always conclude these podcasts with some standard foam questions, the first of which is to put a fact to my guest, and your fact is according to a study conducted by the Commonwealth Funding Twenty Ida in comparing the US with ten of a high income countries US women report. Positive experiences that have the greatest burden of chronic illness and the highest right of maternal mortality more than one third of women in the US reports skipping medical care by need because of costs and more than one quarter reports, spending two thousand dollars, or more on out of pocket, medical costs to themselves or their family. Does any of that surprise you know in fact to add to that the tunnel death rate mortality for African American women, or is even worse than what you described is worse than some Third World countries and we. We have to fear out. Why and it's not income-related? We see people like Serena Williams almost died because of it, so we have to start to address them. All of the things that you just described. I think just kind of going out on a limb. No science behind this, but there will be. Is that health policies matter in that when all of them could be address by improving certain policies that we have in place. We don't have policies that are in the favor of women. We don't have good childcare policies we don't. Don't have things that are equitable in so I. Think we, as a society could do much better in those policies in star chain some of those numbers. What's the worst misogyny you've had to deal with in your career? You know I try not to think about that too much. figures their problem, not mine, but I guess when I was running for office in the state to run to get on board of the State Medical Society which is controlled all of healthcare in the state. You had to go around to different little. Little groups and speak to them in I went to one, and there was this doctor who said he says who's Friday who's going with you, so he? He went with me and he is like an older doctor. Just kind of took me under his wing in the would introduce me, so we went in this room in this one doctor stood up and talk into the the older guy he says now bill. This isn't right, you know we don't need a black person on that board in besides we got one woman anyway. I thought okay this. Build. Older doctor was going to answer in all. Answer it and I explained to him that the guy that I wasn't running as a black person that wasn't running as a woman that was running as the most qualified person, and if he didn't think it was, and he should vote for someone else. I went on with my speech. Well, that was what he believed that time in this guy became one of my strongest supporters throughout the year is on, but he didn't know any better. It was SORTA like I could've been angry about it, but he probably would have a different experience. It's a fantastic story. Thank you. If you had all the power school a moment and you could change one thing the women. What would be nothing. I would. We're great. I would give more powers. You know as far as society, and all those things I would probably try to make much more equal in certainly, we tend to do so much that at one time we take on everything we take everything on our shoulders, and we'd take it personally. I would ask women to take care of themselves better because we often take care of others I. in I think is important. We do take care of others in this part of who we are. And we're already too much of A. Society so I'm not saying that we should be selfish, but I do think we should take a minute and take care of ourselves as well. I like that answer. Virginia Wolfe says one likes people much fitter when they batted down by prodigious siege of misfortune, rather than when they triumph. Says you know I've learn more by particularly politics by losing a race than by winning the challenges in the struggles make you stronger, and it makes you who you are an so I take. Every opportunity is learning opportunity into be stronger so I I agree with Virginia Woolf that adversity makes a strong January is a good woman to a gray with Regina. Thank you so much for this conversation that terrific. Thank you, thank you in. We're so proud of you and all that you're doing in your my role model. You've been listening to a podcast of one zone with two killers from the Cleveland Institute of Women's leadership at King's College London, for more information on our work and to sign up for updates visit, mclovin institute mincy to ship site. This podcast is produced by Lizzie Ellen James Michener with kings, online and digital editing by Nick Hilton. If you've liked what you've been listening to these and reviewers with your preferred podcast provider combat next time for another episode of the podcast of one's own with judy gold.

United States Alabama Public Health Service infectious disease Australia Diabetes hypertension America Kobe President Obama London Julia Gillard US Public Health Service Commi Sally Davies Regina Benjamin Virginia president Katrina Mike
Sally McManus on women and trade unions

A Podcast of One's Own with Julia Gillard

40:19 min | 1 year ago

Sally McManus on women and trade unions

"Dear listeners I hope you and your family's AH keeping Siphon world during these incredibly challenging time. We don't currently have access to a studio and cut make kissing person but we do want to continue bringing you podcast episodes which Sharon sparring and lifting stories of women in leadership or we still have a few podcast episodes to put up which were recorded full way. Oh head determine Nineteen and Nick said of recording some moving online and I will be making my wonderful guests over video coal while sound quality may not be as high as with the studio recordings. I hope the discussion will be every bit as valuable and enlightening. We've got a fantastic set of guests lined up. Some of whom elite is in the medical world and can offer guidance and wisdom during these difficult moments. I hope you enjoy the special set of PODCASTS. And if your rival to place right and review us on your preferred podcast platform. It really helps us reach more or less news with message of a more gender equal I'm Julia Gillard. And this is a podcast of one's own. I'm offended by the lack of women in positions of leadership and the way those that do make it a traitor to die. I helped laid the Global Institute for Women Slave ship at King's College London headquartered in Virginia Woolf Building in Nineteen Twenty Nine. Virginia said she aspired for women authors to have the space to write in a room of one's own here. I want women leaders too. Have A podcast. Once I my guest today is dying Sally Davies. Who until October last year was the chief medical officer for England the my senior government advisor on health matters? She was the first and only woman to ever hold this raw. She's also a member of the World Health Organization Executive Board and now serves as master of Trinity College at the University. Kind Bridge Sally. Until recent weeks many people would not have thought much about the chief medical officer. Now we find ourselves hanging off their every word and I met a way we are in the world. Can you describe the role of the chief medical officer what it was like to hold that job? Well it was an incredible honor and to bear flagbearer. I think as a woman actually does put more pressure on. You definitely meant that. I was called the Chief. Nanny of the nation which was sexist. But what we have to do is think hard about the public's health and most of the time for me in Britain that was not about the NHL services. It was more about the preventive health health improvement and health protection and so of course lamentin agencies came onto that I was the one that with the backup of scientists had to advise government. When we have the NAVA joke poisonings in two thousand nine ten. I was not there for the first wave of the flu. Pandemic I was actually running research the chest but I was there for the third wave when we had even more deaths and drank back from holidays by ministers for a bowler in West Africa to talk about what needed doing where we responding effectively and to talk to the public. Some people call the roll. The nation's doctor so it's complex because it moves around and I'm a hematologist specialist in sickle. So and then. I became a researcher so I have a broad background but I'm rather pleased that my successor is an infectious disease specialist so he has called the president horrors of covert and he is expert. And can you imagine what the Chief Medical Officer in the U. K? Or INDEED OTHER CHIEF. Medical officers around the world are going through now. Can you give us an insight into what would it be like well? It's very pressured because what you're trying to do is stay on top of the signs on one side. What should we be doing the services on what's going on and the limitations because no one is prepared for something as bad as this and then the crushes which come from ministers because they clearly want sorting out and they want to show they're in control the media which again is pushing and raking over every little thing and the public demands? Put that beside your own desire to get it right and to save lives and it's a very pressured role you refer them to people not saying something like this coming. Did you ever imagine that the world would be where we are today? Well we did a lot of practice. As did you in Australia of pandemic planning but it was always a flu. So that tastes in respiratory born virus and we thought that would standards in good stead. I think it's shown that we didn't practice everything we didn't think through the testing well enough and the other things. We clearly didn't have ready but would anyone have ready. It's a question of how much clamming can you do and we did a lot and we some really good planning song quite proud of what we did but then how fleet of foot can you be when it happens and how anticipate can you be as you watch it develop and what's giving you hope at the moment on one thing that certainly in world war odd claims the scientific and medical communities coming together and focusing on the research and vaccine other things that are going to make a profound difference at all of that. What escaping you spirits up? Well the first thing is of coal some actual nature that we historically have epidemics and pandemics and survival of the fittest as nations and society. We come through. Interestingly here. I am sat in Trinity College and the where the plagues in the mid sixty and hundreds. Which aren't she because we close down as we have done now. Pasta spy but newt of gravity fame is famed for having. Actually it's not quite correct story having discovered gravity during one of the plagues. I think the way people are coming together whether it's about the sun some working together on treatments vaccinations whether it's in the service stories of heroism of nurses doctors on the front line but also the volunteering the support from people in the community for the vulnerable taking medicines. Taking food and everything. So it's how society is coming together and working together whether it's on Sundance or to support others. Isn't that wonderful? The way it's happening and I am loving the means and the little videos and everything on facetime what SAF and zoom I mean are now doing masses of things by zoom. We were cooking supper with our daughter on zoo last night. She was cooking hers in the House. And we were cooking up unfortunately onsumer. You can't lane in enticed they can't particularly better. I'm GonNa take you back now to your ties when you grew up and when you first start to think that you might want to be doctor because I'm sure one of the things that struck people as we've watched the coverage of the pandemic is had. Jane ended idiots most of the experts most of the politicians or their podiums breed. I telling us what's going to happen next all men so as a girl growing up. What made you decide you so I wanna be a doctor. Well actually. I'm an auditory because I didn't know what to do. I got to the age of sixty nine had quite decent exam results. I was better at biology. Had I remember my mother saying you? Good biology you quite like people that you do mince father who was a medic. No one else in the family so I talked to him and it seemed a good idea so I went off to do it and actually after the first couple of years and it's on record I found it quite brutalizing. I think in the way that the doctor's now will find it. The people were. We had Russian health system particularly at that time in the mid seventies where I can remember. Oh young woman. For instance. Not being allowed renal dialysis because there was a choice between patients. And she didn't win. Am I thought this was so unfair? And how many things were handled. I was so brutalized I actually gave up for four years and then giving up discovered I had of the -cation and I think what our young doctors are going through. The moment that was on the front line is very similar. Not Enough ventilators. Who Do you choose seeing? People die in circumstances where you can't hold their hand and their families can't be there I think they're experiencing some of that brutalizing and harrowing things that I saw in the early and mid seventies and I fear many of them will say after it's over. I can't do this. I hope like me I went off. Married diplomat went Madrid as a diplomat's wife. I wasn't the good diplomat's wife but I realized I wanted to do meant and then came back really energize and I hope that if they do give up then come back energized when they've found themselves again. Do you think we'd be a bit better now at supporting the main to help us. And we'RE OBEYING OF AIR FRONTLINE. Doctors Enosis as they go through something like this. Would they be more understanding? About how spirit crushing making. Those choices are literally between. Who lives in dollars? I think we're more understanding but talking to on younger daughter WHO's a first year doctrine. The front line they are so stretched so rushed that the extra services aren't available so it is a question of kindness in a team and supporting the team. I had that too. It wasn't enough for me. I would rather a gentle soul that stage. I don't know I think we're going to have to do an awful lot of catching up later on and when you look back on those days I mean. Brutalizing is a very strong word. Was that really perspective about the system. Did you think that they was agenda? Element and win offered in your life that if I said to yourself. Jay is something different that happens because I'm a woman. Oh the walls gendered element was in medical school. I think thirteen women at the year of one hundred ten. I mean looking back very inappropriate thing so when we did surface anatomy I was made to stand on a stool while they drew on my legs where the muscles were. I mean you know and I thought that was normal at that stage but you wouldn't allow that now getting back to starting on the walls. The word very few women. The nurses were not used to women. Doctors remember the system. I I would saying well. You think I'm here to ally was no. I don't and she said you're here to make mighty and it was actually quite difficult environment and I was definitely Baltimore. The pecking order. But I came from a fairly sparky academic background and my father who was a theologian taught me that. I should ask and challenge. In order to get the right answer I mean at the age of six challenging bishops. How do you know God exists and things so? Perhaps I was better prepared. The many women would be in that. I was prepared to challenge and push back but it wasn't easy. Am I do think it was a agenda sexist environment and can you give us an example of one moment of pushing back of challenging? Do Love the image of you as a sixty road. You know it Sunday lunch challenging bishop but in the context of Medical Education or medical practice. Well I mean just silly things like I remember. I did something on one of my early wall drown. Something consultant said. Miss Davis I said in front of the patient and the whole team. I appreciate you think have got this wrong and I'm really sorry but I know that when you're happy with me you call me Sally when you content you call me. Dr Davis Miss Davis not acceptable. And he said Oh. I didn't realize I did that. Said you into the men interesting. It didn't again. Oh so go to resort. Yes I wouldn't be invited to everything because the boys were going for a beer sitcoms. I can't stand beer and I didn't like pubs because of the smoking them so I didn't mind in one sentence but on the other side. We all know that a lot of medical networking used to take place in the pub over a beer so I was being excluded though I think the funniest was my hematologist professor who I was very fumbled. But he would do this long ward round on one morning of the week and at a certain point he would walk into the gents and continued discussing the patients and my friend and I she she and I would stand outside. Arms crossed thinking. What are they saying about patients? We're looking off. And I got so fed up I took to propping. Open the door with my foot and continuing the conversation with the professor while he was in the Jen's that stopped it. That's a fantastic. He meach to now. You've said about being a woman that you think your gender means that you bring anything special to the role for example role as chief medical officer beyond the willingness to take a more collaborative approach and perhaps a relative lack of a guy. What did you mean by that? A lot of men who achieve these great offices set out to I mean I do meet young. Men Are not met a young woman. Actually who say to me? I want to be a chief. Medical officer said well. Perhaps you should not only enjoy the journey but recognize that. It's an issue of timing. Who else is around? And you may not make. But they're invested in the office. I wasn't it was only about a year before the post came up when my predecessor said to me sally you'd be a good. Cmo Why didn't you apply? When I go in about a year. And I said why would I want it? We had this very funny discussion. So it wasn't. I was invested in the office or had an EGO. In fact I don't my father and mother as I said we're academics and they brought me up to believe that you should have a really good debate does matter if it's an argument but the debate get to the best answer. So I brought this very academic research background in and in fact what my team said was I would get to a conclusion quite quickly. But if they had a better argument I would shift and I was always debating thinking aloud and everything and that isn't an ego driven way of doing it so it was a different style. It was very I set out to make evidence my U. S. P. and to be collaborative and debating and then if a decision needed taking I would take it. So that was kind of different approach. Much more academic approach and just unpacking some of that. I mean the fact that you didn't put you so forward for the role of chief medical officer that you waited for someone to ask you the fact that your initial reaction was to be taken aback rather than be fantastic bat and the fact that you didn't take a challenge. Intellectual challenge of debate as an undermining of your ladyship pathology. How gendered do you see that? I mean at the Global Institute for Women's leadership we look at a lot of research about these things and to us in those sorts of things does saying the agenda dynamic based on the research. But it had to use it. If you had been you know Bob instead of instead of Sally. Would you had your cat sit on the chief medical officer post ten years earlier? Would you put yourself forward? Would you say on just going to blitz this? I'm going to the base Savo? Would you feigned more offhand or dismissive? If people put account of you two you can guide so you and I know the research that a lot of women are waiting for a tap on the shoulder little princess. This wasn't about that my response was why would I want to do it because actually I had the world's best job I was running one and a quarter billion pounds worth of health research. I loved it and I wasn't sure I actually wanted to do the job. So that's quite different from. It's too much for me and so I had to think myself into. So do I want it? What is it and what what would I do with it? And then to watch other people circle and think about it actually in the end. I went to the Permanent Secretary of the department. Said I've been thinking about this and I have decided to apply because my present role repulsed. The CMO am. I don't respect any of the men who you are going to shortlist says I will apply. I will keep the research portfolio. And if you don't appoint me that's fine but I will not report to the new. Cmo I will report directly to you so actually I played it quite. Powerfully was not a that I was waiting to be tapped. I thought through what could I do with it and I thought through who else would get it and how I wanted it and four women who are listening to this podcast and who are now shaking their head going. I could never do something like that. What would you say to them? Was there a little voice in the back of your head? Sighing war. Sally. Don't be so push shield and not gonna like you if you push like that because a lot of women have that voice in the back of their heads. Yes I think over the years. I've come through that so don't let me pretend that this is how I've I've always been quite challenging talking about me as a young doctor. I've also had my fair share of worries and the Impostor Syndrome but I've learned I believe in the Peter Principle which is that a lot of people ended up appointed to the job born above the warm where they function best as managed everything. I've done so my question to myself is when does appear to principal play out. Can I do the next level and the way you find out? It's by doing it and I probably can. So that's where I come to this fantastic now during your time as chief medical officer. Of course you'd have ended up with the one with the KHURANA virus. But you did during your tenure have to deal with the case response to the atoll rap break in West Africa and you said back then. You were very proud of the volunteers. The doctors the nurses the lab staff the government officials who went out and put themselves at risk to do an amazing job. Can you just talk us through what it was like to be at that time in such a responsible position when a ball breakout and as we know they season incredibly deadly disease. I mean we've all spent a lot of time talking about death rights from nineteen but a baller is truly Deadly disease absolutely well-treated. You might get thirty to forty percent deaths but always an outbreak sit. It starts much higher until you've built the right facilities and got the local staff knowing how to treat the patients and it's scary because it's not that easy to catch. She can't catch it with spiritually wise like covert any bodily secretions and a lot of the early cases always spread through funerals and everything. Which means that. You're getting the heart of a community. How do you conduct your rights? The social fabric of those communities will scary because it was going up exponentially. The number of doctors it died in Sierra Leone was horrendous. It's decimated their health service. Azziz covert in some countries like Italy and Spain. And we are having to semes- is dying here with co two so the questions were to understand the disease and luckily we had a lot of good Santus. Explain that to me. Understanding how best treated the present chief medical officer. My Success Chris Witty was actually the chief scientific advisor it defeat our aid agency so he and I worked in tandem with him thinking about Sierra Leone. The me thinking about the impact on Britain. And then you get to the clash between science and public pressure. One example was that the son says that to do entry. Screening based on high temperatures is not cost effective so we go to our emergency meetings chaired by the Prime Minister that called Cobra because it stands for Cabinet Office briefing rooms and say cost effective and the prime minister says. But I want to do it. Ashley. I then was able to tease out that the reason he wanted to was. He wanted to show the country and his electrode that he had done everything possible to protect them. I could see the advantage of catching people coming in from west Africa and saying these of the symptoms if they develop ring this number Public Health England. And this is what you do so that we were giving them something. I said. Well if you feel you need to do it to show. You're doing everything. The reason advantage. Are you prepared to pay the bill? And he said yes. I said fine. I have no problem with you. Doing it. Interestingly this time on covert the scientists said. It wasn't cost effective and our prime minister. Said all right. We wouldn't do it. I actually think that was the right decision here because so much everywhere that you either walk down and stop aeroplanes and traffic. Or you don't follow but you can't do it through entry screening and we know that now because of all these symptomatic carriers but just teasing out what does say what needs doing. What politicians want an in the moment taking the decisions and flexing round that is quite tough and then talking to the nation about it? Doing all the media. I still remember after one broadcast my sister saying you look really grumpy and said I was trying to look serious. And she's out she said well look jumpy and I think that was when they really started that and I'll go guidelines of course a lot of the press calling me. The chief nanny which is totally gendered was and that was quite difficult. Usually I just ignored it or laughed about it. Though the walls of famous type where on the Today programme which is of course are very famous news programme on radio. Four every morning one of the interviewers Nick Robinson instead of waiting till the end of an interview then saying and chief nanny or something said some call you chief. Nanan so angry that he started like that turned around and said. I think you'll being gendered. I think that's unacceptable. I won't have it. There was a whole twitter storm in support of me and he was writing me. A note sexist. I would say you did it without thinking and it was my back against the wall. I challenge fight back. I mean half frustrating was that I mean they are chief medical officer an incredibly serious job talking about issues that really matter will abol or end up in the United Kingdom deadly disease what is alcohol usage or the misuse of alcohol costing in terms of people's held some lives and people are critiquing like that. I mean how have frustrating is it. Well I did goals Kim Woody. Call a male. Cmo The chief. Man I said I would watch wants I retired. I have not yet seen cool male successor chief. Nanny and I'm waiting for it because that would then mean it wasn't gendered and do you think fool women in the medical profession women who modest spa to a public role like that that saying that kind of treatment it puts them off or they just shrug and say well. I guess they'll be a bit of that but the job still worth. Do you have a sense of that? I think it does put women off. Because how do you learn to cope with it and you know I have learnt? I've been very well. Trained MEDIA WISE BY THE DEPARTMENT DOT COM staff of fabulous. And they would really everything I did. I was prepared as if it was a five hour exam. What are the elephant traps? How will I sound? How will it come over? And I've learned terrific amount. Thanks to that but if you haven't been through that so that you know okay. I can do this in any way. I am a fighter. It's quite worrying. Are they going to say things like that to me? What will I do? How will I say it so I think it does put off some of the ones who would turn out to be very good with some training and so we need to do more training and in an age like this watching as you get to do now rather than being in the middle of it so that having that sense of distance which can give you an ability to see it all I mean what do you think are some of the big problems in dealing with a pandemic like this and so much main? The scientific problems though feel free to speak about them. But I've got more on my mind this balance that you've talked about between political decision making in the expert advice and also the communications when people at home for countless hours they can scroll every tweet watch every facebook post and clearly end up with a lot of John King formation as well as hopefully get themselves onto some credible sources including more chief medical officers and other scientific experts. I so it is difficult. Unite both knew this. There's a desire for news. All ministers led by the Prime Minister. Doing five. Pm Conference News Conference every day and actually people around the country logging. In what's fascinating to me is you can see that. Some ministers a lousy at it talking down to us the public or bossy others are too nervous clearly not leaders and it really is sorting them out the door couple. I'm happy they're in their roles but others you think Ooh but the scientists my successor in the chiefs sand confines. A or deputies are there and being home and giving the advice so the communication is there. I think the media so far doing in Britain a very good job of being supportive but questioning a bit of challenge but most of them are taking the line of look. We can do the looking back later on. This is where we are. How are you GONNA go forwards and recognizing the needs the sense? We have a wonderful institution. Kula sounds media center. Run Your folks whether you know it but she finds experts to talk to journalists all the time about different things and she's been running conferences for the journalists with expert so that they get the background so when stories come up they know what's going on and when a story comes up she'll find them an expert to quote comment so I think we're getting very responsible reporting in general on looking all across the globe. Of course I looked to the states. Get a lot of interesting things from that. And I really can't not take you up on that how you see the US in comparison with the UK or any other nations response while. I'm glad we have an NHS off my big take home message that care and testing. It's free appoint access because we know that poor people whether they are black and minority ethnic just our own or toxins. Poor are prone to health inequalities. They are more likely to have a bad outcome both in getting the disease in having morbidity and a bigger death rate see you have to have the safety net of the NHS to support them. And what we're now seeing coming out of the states. The African Americans getting the disease more often than than dying at much. Higher rates is tragic and we need to support our people so we don't get those dreadful outcomes. I think the lack of national unity and sons based advice visibly is making it very difficult. Some states and clearly politics is coming in much more. You can an analysis which suggests that the red states will slower coming in with restrictions and look downs than the blue states. I don't know enough about it but I am glad we have an innate absolutely and I think people at this time are all looking for some hope and some ways of getting through. So if you've got a crystal ball that tells us when we'll be out of this we would love to hear your prediction but in the meantime what are you enjoying doing. I've been reliably informed the brig making and jam production happening at your place. Is that right jam? Making and shut me. Yes I've discovered a website called Marquee and they've given a reduction because of course where you can get the Royal Shakespeare Company all pro plays so. I'm watching lots of things that I missed and I wish before. I've got the exercise bike to look forward to but a bubble. I'm trying to structure my day so that I am leading a normal day and to talk to our daughters and our family through facetime and zoom and Google. Hang out as much as possible so that actually we're in much more contact than we ever were before and that's right with the pressures of being locked down and for our daughter on the front line in the hospital and do you think will come out of this wiser. I'm hoping that we come out of it with a new attitude. Too Flexible working. You know one of the things we've talked about for a long time. Which would help women's careers and to close many of the gender gaps that there are around work would be for virtual and flexible work to be more embraced. And we're all having a big listen. Had to get that done so I'm hoping we take some of that with us. What are you hyping? Tyke hat of this. Well I hope we do. I think we will. I hope that we will come out recognizing how important health services are. I mean. We shouldn't have people pleading for resources for every day. Care and then we get this on top of it. I hope we come out of it. Kinda to our neighbors tonight. Believe we probably will with much more social cohesion but I also hope we come out of it with not just the digital at home but the digital across our health service. Because that's what I know about if you look at how health services a changing because we can't do face to face and people have pressured. That is the talk of change we've needed for ages and we've given it a big step up. I don't want to lose that and the other area. That's fascinating is. We're managing to aggregate data in the interests of getting better outcomes from coverted where before ridiculously heavy governance and box. Ticking of a little brains was getting in the way. I hope we can keep that. Because actually patients will benefit. The public will benefit and also shown in one of my cmo annual reports. If you keep people healthy than the economy does better. So we can continue this partial unlocking. It's not a full on locking of the aggregating data it will change our lives since like some great things to come out of it now. I'm going to move to act concluding questions. We always ask guests a set of questions and we always start with the fact to respond to so your fact is. According to an analysis of one hundred four countries conducted by the World Health Organization. Roughly seventy percent of the global healthcare workforce is made up of women currently of course there at the front line. Saving patient's lives given half feminist. This workforce is windy. Think we will properly recognize and pie. The contribution of healthcare workers a good question. I think what's important is to look at each group and make sure all the women are getting equity within their groups because on an average we have a lot more women in the lower paid areas. But you're not going to pull them up to the medical levels. The evidence on women is in medicine is on average they are in certain groupings that are lower paid. Is that because women. Is it for other reasons. We need to sort through that and move forward. I think when you take. The biggest feminist workforce nursing one of the things that worries me is. Why do we see a small number of men coming in but proportionally many more men in the managerial and leadership roles? What can we do to help those women who could do it but I haven't recognized? It comes through because then. I think pay will begin. Sort its way through but those already work on arguing to our government in this country that nurses need to be better paid and I hope the care workers and other people will have a better deal going forwards. I'm in. It must be very difficult as a woman. Be A care worker on zero walls contract particularly if you've got children or other responsibilities at home. I if violence all putting bread on the table and yet doing these other things. We need fair. A society can't come out of covert. Maybe we can rely too far from the embers of covert. I hope so. What's the worst misogyny you've had to face? I think I brush it off so much that I do believe. Noise notice it. I mean I have so often been the only woman in a room so one of the things. I really hate an I've experienced and whenever I talk about it other women recognize it so it's not. It's of Eight misogyny meeting when a woman puts an idea on the table. Oh thank you moving on then. A man puts the same idea on the table. Oh isn't Jimmy Clemmie every woman? I've talked to recognize that one. I actually talk to women about how they should handle that you know that they should come back saying. Oh I'm so glad you picked up on my idea or talking to the chair about it. I've talked to them about how they should share meetings. United says that if if they didn't pick it up and it happens to say oh great Jimmy. Jemima put that on the table earlier there. We have to be aware of that. So it's not one big misogynist event. I'm picking up for you. I'm picking up this pervasive misogyny that affects almost all women. Unless you've got so that they didn't then this I think whoever's listening to this podcast is going to be furiously notting. They're hating agreement. Absolutely now if for a moment you had all the power in the world. What would you change for women one thing? We all need to be learning all the time. I think I let expression from you. But how do we empower women through education and they need to learn their books? They need to learn the skills. But it's part of that. They need to learn to believe in themselves and that they can do it. We Can Virginia Wolfe says thought and theory must precede all salutary action it. The action is notable in itself than either thought or theory. I think that women need to recognize that evidence should underpin action but the dog gut response is usually the right. One of compassion are moving to support and make things happen. I like that. Thank you very much into ripping to talk to you. What a pleasure. You've been listening to podcasts. Of One zone with Julia. Last from the Cleveland Institute of Women's leadership at King's College London for more information on our work and to sign up for updates visit mclovin institute for Mincy to ship website. This podcast is being produced by Lizzie. Ellen James met with kings online and additional by Nick Hilton. If you've liked what you've been listening to these reviewers with your preferred podcasts provide. Yeah come back next time for another episode of the podcast of one's own which unique.

Chief Medical Officer Sally Davies Britain Medical officer flu Julia Gillard Prime Minister medical officer Trinity College West Africa Virginia Global Institute for Women Sla World Health Organization Exec NHL Nick Sharon England King's College London researcher
Women in public health: The NHS, fighting COVID-19 and the 'slow pandemic'

Sky News Daily

25:31 min | Last month

Women in public health: The NHS, fighting COVID-19 and the 'slow pandemic'

"People are used to women playing certain roles to play a strong female role was a surprise to many of them that he was and turned to me and said oh good. I'll have mine with two sugars please. Because he's clearly thought that i was there to make the tea i wasn't actually on the panel. Twenty twenty was an unprecedented year. Kobe pandemic dominated news agendas. Most days and societies were forced to face the issue of race and inequality following the murder. Of george floyd but the past twelve months or so have been memorable for other reasons as well. We did it show. Kamala harris became the first woman and woman of color to be sworn in as us vice. President may be the first woman in this office. I will not be the last. She wasn't the only one making history in a year. We've been saved by science. Many behind the breakthroughs of being women katherine johnson one of the leading researchers at pfizer at professor. Sara gilbert creator of the oxford vaccine. It's a vaccine based on using another virus to make a vaccine scientists to global leaders. Please remember we are going to be okay. Female figures have been leaving them are on the world. My generation will not give up without a fight including when it comes to climate change public service business and sport. history has been made in the grand national. Today rachel blackmore becomes the first female. Just got a beautiful passage the hallway through the race today. Rebecca walsh makes history becoming the first woman referee to be appointed to a game in the efl in the next ten fifteen years. We will see a left in the primary as part of a special series on the sky news. Daddy podcast with me. Dermott men and we look at the impact of women on society. The successes and the challenges that still remain global in today's episode. We focus on women in public health. I'm sally davis i'm doctor. I started life. Wanting to be a pediatrician but turned into a hematologist specializing in sickle cell disease but got drawn into how best to fund research and development and ended up running the and development the nhs and persuading ministers to let me set up the national institute for health research and hr and give me a billion and the quarter pounds every year to spend on the search in two thousand ten dame. Sally went on to become england's chief medical officer the first woman to hold the post. She remained in the role for nearly a decade leaving at the end of september. Twenty thousand nineteen then. I moved here to trinity college in cambridge. Where i am the fortieth muster september twenty nineteen with any straws in the wind about sauce cough to then was anything inkling even coming across your task. I mean we certainly knew nothing about it in the media or the general public there was nothing there. And even with the retrospect to scope we believe that in move hand the with things to see in november or to find but there was nothing in september known internationally. Yeah well we're talking. Maybe a little bit more about that later on but let some. I want to concentrate on that. What nearly a decade is chief medical officer for england and of course the first female chief medical officer i mean did not make any difference. Did it make any difference to other people who dealt with you. I think being a woman still of my generation. You have to prove your not just as good as the men. But in general better and i think it still plays out that you can be. I often walls the only woman in a room or one of the few and not being treated as equal in so many minor ways looking around to see if i would serve the coffee. The classic thing hold on seriously seriously people looking you the chief medical officer in a meeting they go get him in sully in turned it round the different way so i bought a coffee machine and put it in my room and then when i wanted to unmanned someone i offered the my coffee so i turned it round on them but yes people are used to women playing certain roles to play a strong female role was a surprise to many of them. Does it make a bit of a different so being in the medical profession in that. I'm just thinking that you've got the credentials you've got the formal qualifications to prove your worth. Well you'd think it would but people over the years found different ways of handling strong women. I mean you know that a woman can't get angry because a woman will be considered hysterical whereas a man is strong when they're angry in the work place. You know that you have to contain and do things very steadily but that's probably not bad practice anyway. Perhaps more men should do that. The terms of the media involvement. We've you you were. I mean seemed incredibly sexist depiction you. A branded in tabloids speak branded as england's nanny in chief yes object to that as you may remember once on i took home one of your colleagues and said i thought it was sexist. Am i thought it was particularly funny. Because you know on the one side. You've got mary poppins and a nanny was fantastically good. You have many tourists who were brought up by nanas and think they were better than their mums and yet others would see it as when it was me as an insult. And that's the libertarian side yet many had had done is i do object but i don't think that they were being very intelligent about it either. The serious point being that. It's a very fine line to tread just in that position to give advice to the public about public health and you're either told that You know you've been to safety. I you being the phrases nannying or the. You're not taking it seriously enough. As a sets a fine line eight is and so. I tried very hard to practice. What i preached whether it was exercise or drink or whatever so that i could be honest and say are like it. I mean jogging is terrifically boring. I think but i do it. Because i know it's good for health. I mean we have it right now. The thought occurred to me. Yesterday was reading a searing account of a health professional. Who's been working on the front line for the past. Fifteen months saying yes. The messaging is is fantastic in terms of what we've got out there to the public about hands facing spacey says but one thing we've left out there is obesity. The prime minister mentioned it once talked about national obesity campaign. I'm talking of course about dealing with covert talked about it. One said there was going to be a campaign lasted about a week. And now it's not mentioned again. That is the thing if you want to change behaviors. You have to just keep the message in going for a very long time. Yes it's catastrophic on obesity. And it's even sadder that of course. Obesity is higher in our most deprived populations and it is a big contributor to cova deaths. I think part of the problem with obesity is that you get in into fat shaming or people do when i'm talking about a health issue and then the other thing is is no single answer. It isn't go biking. that is hardly the answer. Is that we too many calories and that we have an abusive genyk environment so no silver bullet and you've got to do all sorts of things and that's difficult for governments but we will end up having to do it. You can't go online. It's kanye world focused at the moment. It seems on a pandemic. But i remember from my discussion with you when you when you left the row. One of the greatest danger to humanity you touched on it still. Is it still out there. And perhaps potentially even even bigger and worse than the current pandemic. Is this antimicrobial resistance. And of course. I mean that has a bearing on on treating people who get complications with coveted and so many other issues doesn't it. Is that the biggest danger coming down the pipe eventually. Well i think the antimicrobial resistance so these bugs that get resistant to the drugs. We used to treat them is a real worry. Eight is the slow pandemic building up and it's of course much. Worse in developing countries and low income countries than it is in the high income countries like us but the genes that give you resistance or rather gives the bugs whether they're viruses bacteria malaria or whatever travel with us as we go trotting around the globe. So the fact that it's not high here doesn't mean new ones won't come in or won't develop here and we need to take action. I'm really pleased that in the g seven. Discussions of health ministers finance ministers and environment ministers. They've all recognized the slow pandemic obama and the need to do something but we got to get going well expand on that. What do we need to do as the special envoy on antimicrobial resistance you know. We're all very focused now on being prepared for the next health crisis. What do we need to do right now. Dame sally well let's start with prevention. Don't get infections. And unless you need to so actually washing your hands to infect hygiene. Is they call it not going to work or school if you've got a really bad cough or flu or something and vaccination programmes great for preventing and around the world. We've done a lot of britain in helping people have clean water and infection prevention and control but then if you get an infection listening to the medical services isn't one that will respond to a treatment because viruses are self limiting. Don't respond to antibiotics. For instance are doctors and nurses and vets. To have to stewart. They have to look after the drugs very carefully so only use them if needed and that means we could do with much better diagnostics. It's wonderful thing the diagnostics come through for covert well. let's get going now on other infections. We could really make a massive difference to how antibiotics and other drugs used. And then finally we need a big piece of work to reinvigorate the drug pipeline. No new classes of drugs coming into clinical use routinely since late nineteen eighty s for antibiotics. That's tragic story and it's because we pay so very little for antibiotics compared to say cancer drugs or something else that many of the big pharma companies withdrawn pfizer gsk k. Merck still involved but not in big ways and we need to sort out the incentives on those companies. Don't so they make a profit from making antibiotics and other anti factors but so they make them and don't lose. Money could some of the financial methods that were employed to fast track the vaccines for covert could those techniques to use those arrangements that governments came up with. We could use those all we can do as we're doing in england in a pilot stopped value antibiotics in a different way and the moment they're valued like cancer drugs are by disability years. Life saved all the number of years extra. Someone live or months even and then you can get a very high price and what we need to do is start to value antibiotics for what they will do for the individual what. They do sat on the shelf knowing that we can actually use them when we need for the health system protecting that hospital from having bacterial resistance in it and to society as a whole. And we've got a big project going through nice working with a couple of companies on exactly that and i love those principles evaluation at a societal level to be rolled out across the world. That would make a big difference coming up. I speak to a woman playing a key role in helping us learn about and tackle new covert variants. My name is wendy barklay. I am currently called the action medical research chair in virology at imperial college london. I'm what people call a. Non clinical scientist professor barclays holiday research career investigating viruses and is a member of sage the group advising the government throughout the covert pandemic. So i started off my career at a place called the common cold unit back in the nineteen ninety s and that was a place where people could go on holiday in inverted commas to catch a cold. It was a really sort of unique place that had been. Set up on the top of salisbury. Just outside salisbury city and it was a bunch of hearts where groups of two or three volunteers would come from all over the country and stay for a couple of weeks and we would instill a common cold virus into their nose of our called rhinovirus. And that's the sort of cause of most colds that people get throughout their lives and then we would study that. The place had a very interesting history. It was set up because back in the second world war people were worried about the spread of infectious disease in air raid shelters and so they wanted a way of studying the way diseases spread from one person to another i did my phd. They're trained learned the techniques. That sort of set me up for the rest of my career and then had a string of other appointments gradually increasing my knowledge knowing my techniques i went to america to new york city for a short period of time and were there with a professor peter lazy who worked on influenza viruses a sort of step if you like in severity from the common cold and he was pioneering new ways to study those using molecular techniques and really with a view to making better vaccines when i came back to the uk and started my own research group at reading university. I stuck with influenza. Because influence was just fascinating virus to be of huge problem both medically and actually for the agricultural world because it causes disease in animals as well as humans. And that's where i stayed. I suppose for twenty odd years thinking about pandemics the way viruses spread between people and then about fifteen eighteen months ago. I suppose now. I can't even remember it's been such a whirlwind. New virus came along which was not one which was expert in but shared many features. That i've been thinking about for a long time and i've found myself rather busy in the last eighteen months. Or so where does corona virus it between those two. I mean a lot of people are confused. You've studied both the cold. The rhino viruses and the flu influenza viruses where does corona virus. It between them. Does it have any any common features. Well i think question is wanting to different answers. Actually so i mean the viruses. If i go molecular the viruses are all very very small. They all share features such as the fact that they can't exist outside of a host they float around in the air completely inert amplify themselves unless they get inside an animal or a person so of course. they're all the same in that respect and they all get in through our nose and throat so those are all similar features. But i think the point that you're making really is the spectrum of illness that they can cause once they're in. I mean what we say. Corona virus corona virus means a whole family of viruses. And we already knew that there are four corona viruses that we call the seasonal corona viruses. Which cause more or less common colds in most people and in fact when i worked at the common cold unit will those years ago studying rhino viruses. There were another group of people who were studying the seasonal corona viruses and. Some of the people who came on holiday didn't get a rhinovirus stuck up their nose. They got a seasonal corona virus and the outcome of those infections. Those purposeful infections was really similar. Yunos people felt a bit rotten for a few days sore throat runny nose and got better. The point is that all of these viruses. There is the potential for new versions of the virus to come across from animals into people that happens very often with flu. That's we were so familiar with that. We have all these viruses out there that we call the avian influenza viruses in wild birds also in chickens and pigs professional barclay explained sometimes when they cross into people we get a pandemic because those viruses look different from the way human viruses look so they spread very fast. That's what's happened now with this new corona virus. This new sars covy to. It's come across my animals and when viruses come across from animals they do quite often cause more severe disease in the human host them the viruses that have been with us for centuries all thousands of years. And i think that's what we're seeing now with sars. It's at one end of the spectrum of the whole corona virus family. Do you have a view. On this theory that's resurfaced again. The saskatoon may have come ultimately from animals but it may have come. Fear a research laboratory in wuhan. I don't believe this is a man made virus. I mean when. I spent my time in new york city with pizza lazy. What i did there was learn how to make viruses in the lab. So i know very well the pros and cons and how difficult it is to make viruses and how one would design such virus if you were going to do it and the hallmarks of the sars covy to virus other. This is not a a man designed virus. This is scott all the features of a natural event. Which has enabled the virus sort of just out of the chargers really to jump into people. The event itself happened in animals and then animals have come into contact with people. We cannot rule out at the moment that the virus was in a lab at some point in that journey. But it's so much more likely that it wasn't it's so much more likely but bearing in mind what we know about other corona viruses and other animal viruses that have jumped into people through exposure in a farming situations in live animal markets. Much more likely. I think that it's it's comes straight from animals into humans. We talk more now about your career and your route to where you are now and particularly from the female perspective. So let's go back. You've graduated from cambridge. You mentioned this fascinating and common cold unit. Just outside salisbury. Love to hear more about that. I'm sure i've seen plays or even carry on films set in locations like that with everyone in bed sneezing and weasing It sounds almost uniquely british. But i'm not sure entirely is so you there. You're gaining invaluable information. I imagine for what is happening to us right now but how many other women were there. Was it a male dominated environment from the research side and said let you ask that. Because i mean the director of the unit was a male lovely man. Could david terrel just such a kind person and extremely head of his time. I think very open minded the lady who was working and was heading. The team working on the corona virus is the seasonal corona viruses. What was a lady called k. Callow and actually. She wasn't particularly the highly qualified. Either she had come up through the ranks so to speak as sort of what we call a lab technician and worked her way up but clearly david terrel respected her hugely. Did we all. And she was a real pioneer. You know she was there sort of telling people. These corona viruses mattered and that we should be studying those there were ladies there to be fair. Most of the other females at the code unit. Were the people running the labs. The lab technicians the people sort of day to day carrying out the experiments and the other doctors who looked after the volunteers if they particularly sick were men. But i wasn't the only female there and it certainly wasn't an environment that was excluding women. It was very nurturing. It wasn't a struggle. I mean it sounds to me and you know talking to other scientists some that this world is pretty equal opportunities. If you're good enough and you work hard enough wherever you come from whatever you are. You'll thrive i would agree with that. I think that the vast majority of my male colleagues. I would hope. Don't really consider whether i'm a man or woman they listen to what i've got to say that up for its merits and treat me in no way different. I mean i have in. My career encountered one or two professors in the university environment. Who clearly don't all feel that way. I have this rather famous. Store are quite like to tell where. In my early days lecturer. I was invited to sit on an interview panel because i think it was the rules that if there was a female candidate for a job there has to be a female on the other side of the table so i was plucked chosen for that and so i sort of waited in the room for everyone else to arrive in a professor swept in when in robes quite work out why you need to wear robes for an interview but there was and turned to me and said oh good i'll have mine with two sugars please. Because he's clearly thought that i was there to make the t- wasn't actually on the panel. We're talking twenty five years ago now and that hasn't happened to me sense and the vast majority of everyone i meet today male or female are just interested in who you are and what you know what you can contribute to the discussion so does professor barclay think we could be in trouble again with kovic this winter. I don't think that this sars covy to virus is going to go away. We're going to have to live with. It will turn into a seasonal virus. I think it was better in the winter. The good news i think. Is that the vaccines that we've got that have been developed absolutely inspirational people like sara gilbert behind the vaccine development. So proud and pleased for her. They are brilliant vaccines. They're so much better than the vaccines that we have or have had four flu. And of course we've never had vaccines for reina viruses. But i think that we're better prepared for new pandemics and we're better prepared for the seasonal waves of this corona virus. Which will come game. Sally has a message for young women and girls who think a career in public health may be for them. Whatever you want to do you can do it and gender doesn't matter but what you have to think about is how to get the right education to put yourself forward and do you know one of the most wonderful things about my career is. I've enjoyed every job so go and do things you enjoy because you'll do them. Well if you enjoy them enjoy the journey and see where it takes you. But i always say to young women learn how to hold your nose and jump when you think you might be able to be not sure i bet you can do it. My thanks to our guests on to you for listening to this episode of the sky news daddy podcast hosted by me dermott manahan and produced by an e. Joyce along with our interviews producer. Tatyana alderson if you've enjoyed this podcast you can follow it in all the usual places and we'd love a review driver told us to through every low vish we brought with us in the twenty one extraordinary personal stories from some of this century's biggest news events. The chilean mine rescue has to be one of the most amazing stories that i've ever covered story costs twenty-one from sky nimes listen follow subscribe. Eye-witnesses said a wall of water appear to simply rise out of the sea. There was no warning.

obesity influenza Sara gilbert george floyd england katherine johnson rachel blackmore Rebecca walsh Dermott sally davis nanas pfizer Kamala harris cough national institute for health Dame sally sickle cell disease wendy barklay salisbury city trinity college
WMW Professor Catherine Barnard

Women Making Waves Podcast

15:47 min | 1 year ago

WMW Professor Catherine Barnard

"You're listening to women making waves on Cambridge one. Eight five radio professor. Catherine Bonnard is an expert on the legal aspects of Brexit. She is a Sena chooser at Trinity College Cambridge and apart from having written numerous books. She does a podcast. Catherine talk to lender about her life. Catherine Barnard is a legal scholar and professor of European and Employment Law at Trinity College Cambridge Versus The colleges. Senior Tutor Catherine Deter Masters and Lord Fitzwilliam and gained a PhD in philosophy. She is a leading researcher working. The issues surrounding the brexit negotiations. Catherine was elected a fellow of Trinity College in One Thousand Nine Hundred. Ninety six as many published works does a podcast and is often called upon by the media to talk about the legal implications of Brexit. Thank you for joining us on women making waves today Catherine now. You were born in Kent and moved to Belfast. When you were young what you remember about your childhood. They're being English in really quite complex environment. I mean I look back I remember. We spent time everytime good to the car. We had to check whether there was a bomb under the car. O We had extraordinary security on the Government House that we lived in. We had nine locks on the front door and we also had broken glass. Net curtains in the windows took the house he lived in was really spectacularly ugly but also what I do remember is the Belfast cellphone. Northbound itself was just beautiful. The giant's causeway. I still think one of the most beautiful places on us and WHO's not been there should really go and visit. The North North. Northern Irish coast is just amazing. Is a place that you go back to still these days. Yes not as often as I would like but when I do go back. It's always a revelation because things improved so much. I took my own children there. Couple of years ago to go and see the Titanic Museum which I must say. It's on the best museums I've ever been to. It's up significant as you probably know. The Titanic was built by Holland of Wolf in Belfast. And you really get a sense of what the luxury on the titanic. But also the extraordinary conditions that the workers had to work in in order to actually build the titanic. Wow what did you want to do when you left? The school was was law. Something that you rose interested in or I think I had a burning sense of injustice is a child and I always thought low via way of resolving. Mexico's The longer you do lord the more you realize that the world is so much more complicated than your eighteen year old self understood but I mean Lou is for someone like me is immensely rewarding. I'm deeply pragmatic and actually I think quite a lot of English. Common Law is declared pragmatic. I remember thinking about studying philosophy at university and when I met the potential teacher who asked me whether I was certain I was there or not. I suddenly realize it's just not for me. Lower is much more and much Katie. The fact my own son is now. Studying philosophy is a is a good post to my own pragmatism. Now I was interested to read your dissertation on the European Litigation Strategy of an equal opportunities commission. And how the EU law could be used to deliver greater equality to women. Is that topic? That's close to your heart. Yes that's right and I think this is Phil Lewis. That's always been the excitement about e law because you law takes precedence over conflicting national law and Sufa Lewis wanting to do social good. You Law prevented him an extraordinary way of trumping national regulatory regimes. And of course the very reason why. A lot of people voted brexit. That they didn't like the fact that there was some out of state body and other woods court Justice that was telling the UK what to do now for lawyers who wanted to deliver social change. This was marvelous foot for lawyers and four dismembers of public. Who didn't like the fact that the bodies from outside the UK telling us what to do you can see why they were very. They found the E. Decree unappealing when you left university. You went on to work in academia. I'm always interested in why people make that choice was never any inclination to join private practice. Which is you know can be pretty lucrative in the long run as well. Yep that's true and in fact I can get the best of both worlds. I've really enjoyed teaching on dose. Enjoy students I enjoy watching them. Actually understand and make some of the connections that I was making it their age but over the years. I've done advisory work for the government and for the EU I've done some involvement in practices. Well so actually. My life is pretty varied brexit. You mentioned a few minutes ago. And that must have almost taken over your life from imagining. Has it been quite an exciting few years? It's been exciting. It's been challenging. It's been difficult. I mean. Certainly it's taken over my life. I remember when on the day of the referendum my then very young sir. I'd probably spend the day with her. Because I've been so preoccupied with brexit in the run-up to the referendum and from St Louis. A teacher training day and I couldn't Because of course there was much interested in the outcome the referendum and she said to me. I'm so glad I'm going to get my mommy back now. Referendums over but of course you so completely wrong because actually. I probably have been busiest since different in them. Yes yes that was. The start really wasn't a now. You've written articles for the Guardian. You've appeared on Newsnight talking about Brexit. Do you think that people on both sides of the brexit divide have let emotions when over common sense a lot of the time? We'll it's interesting. The organization is beautiful with this. Could you can change. A Europe and that organization requires us to be nonpartisan with talking about brexit related issues. And that's been really important posts in the run-up him and in the period afterwards right up until the my we'll be actually did leave the European Union and it Steph required us to be quite measured in what we say in how we say it and we spend lots of time thinking about how to explain things in his number somewhere as possible now. It's certainly true that on both sides of the debate that means a very vociferous proponents and opponents of what's been going on but we have been asked and called upon post by the broadcast of the government says. Try and find a way through to explain. What's going on in the most unbiased way possible? And this has been a challenge for me as an academic. Maybe think quite long and hard about my subject. It's also made me think long and hard about how to present things to a non expert audience as clearly as possible simply as possible and also actually introduced me to very different way of doing social science because it means a learned about blogging. Learns about social media. I've learned about different ways of engaging with the public point has been stimulating interesting and at times absolutely exhausting. I can imagine. I think you've done that very well. Because I know that you've been on the radio with me and you've been explaining brexit and I clarified things very nicely so think mothers to do that very very well. It's hard to be to say. It may be the years of teaching. Actually teaching undergraduates does force you to try and think about how to explain complex ideas in quite a simple language. Not necessarily theoretically ideas simpler. But I don't think it helps anyone to try to explain complex things in a coke lex way no when ideas are new certainly women working in the legal sector. That's the thing of interest to you as well. I believe having worked in having worked myself I can see a marked improvement in the number of women lawyers and partners certainly since the seventies of cousy has gotten a lot better and firms recognize that in order to carry on employing excellent women. They need to make their work practices. Bester lots of firms. Still don't deliver that very well and there's still questions drop off rate of women in their late. Twenties early Thirties. Which coincides with them. Having maybe other I children often their second child But certainly firms becoming much more willing to allow women to work from home and paradoxically. It may be the one very slim. Silver lining of the CORONA VIRUS CHALLENGE THAT. We're experiencing the MY. What is that so many more of us are going to have to learn how to work from home or work effectively that actually it will become the new norm and so actually both men and women who worked from Morrison. That's really interesting that you say that because we were talking about it. That's at work today. Exactly the same. I think this is going to cause a massive shift in the way that things are done. Actually I know I think that's right and even where my university hats we've long tour to the very standard way? Small Group teaching groups of two or three plus big lectures. But I think given that So much more is going to live online over the next couple of months. I think people can have very fast. How technology is out there and how it can be used most effectively Yeah I do think it will change things now professor Dame Sally. Davies is the first woman master of Trinity College. Do you feel that having women in senior positions and academia has changed the way that things are done so I think I think it's more complicated than just saying having a woman. Master is good. Having a male masters is is bad. Collect think there is a generational shift and certainly I've been in academia long time now and some of my greatest supporters have been meant. So I think it's it's it's a more complex than that. Just simple binary men about women are good quite the country but I think actually having Sally Davis who as you know is the ex chief medical officer in such a prominent position with years of experience in the public sector and actually bringing some fresh insight from outside has been really very good indeed for the college yes it must be quite interesting working with the woman touch Lee with the with. The Corona virus must have opinions on that presumably. She does I mean obviously. She's very supportive of her successor. But she ozzy was the woman who had written a lot of the contingency plans and site. Sign them off last year so she has a deeper knowledge about what may or may not happen than the rest of us. Now you've written. How many twelve books. I think oh too many ready to see plenty to cure those in some. Where do you find the time middle of the night? Really yes you do. You want to these people that stays really late. Yeah or get up increasing. I get up very early. But whatever either way it's it's fifty didn't amongst all sorts of other things and what are your hobbies when your time hoping to suddenly really. I struggle with a bit. But I've got three kids and I take huge huge pressure and being with them through. Very keen footballers so I spent lots of St Mornings and Sunday mornings standing on Co touchlines watching the local football team that I don't envy you. Cuff and thank you very very much for joining us today on women making waves pleasure talking to you if feeding my pleasure. Thank you for your time Really enjoyed talking to Catherine of actually matter to three times before. Because she's been in doing radio shows with me talking about brexit. I always find a really interesting. What I love about her is that she's very measured when she's talking about motive things like Brexit is hurry of expertise What was really interesting while she was on the panel on Newsnight and she was actually applauded for being the most sensible person in the room by lots of people into a marriage made me smile. She did seemed like she was so. That's interesting applauded for being on probably honest as well and that's what people are looking for. Isn't it well well? She was actually giving the facts and because she she's well she's on one side of the other don't know but her view is very done in the middle because she's just dealing with facts not emotions. I liked talking to her about Brexit for that very reason because unemotional about it and have pasta her growing up in Northern Ireland is equally as fascinating and also total respect for her as well but what she had been going through Yeah I think I think because of the work that her father did you know it was. It was probably quite cutting dangerous place to be but she really loves Ireland. She's saying she goes back when she confronts every beautiful place. I've never been to Northern Ireland. Actually have you Susan. I've been to southern Ireland. Another now I've been to sell the non dot love to go to or something that likes to do but I I'm always in or people that have grown up in a sort of a trauma place but scenes the beauty of a place as well and I find that wonderful to be able to recognize and do at the same time because what Northern Ireland went through in those days. Is this phenomenal? Oh it must have been incredibly difficult but I think as a child you probably focus on other things you know you got your schoolwork and your friends to focus on and everything else just becomes part of everyday life a little bit like the covert nineteen thing. I think the kids will probably adapt to it quite quickly because they just they adopt two things advantage and I can imagine just very good chitter. I would If I were doing law would certainly like to be cheered by by Catherine. She's great you're listening to women making waves on Cambridge when I five radio.

Brexit Catherine Belfast Trinity College Cambridge European Union professor Catherine Bonnard Cambridge Catherine Barnard professor of European and Empl Catherine Deter Masters Government House Northern Ireland researcher Phil Lewis UK Europe Titanic Museum Ireland
Democracy Now! 2019-10-10 Thursday

Democracy Now! Audio

59:02 min | 2 years ago

Democracy Now! 2019-10-10 Thursday

"From New York this is democracy now order over the last years and big Horn county all that and more coming undermine the stability of the whole region the UN Security Council is expected to meet later today on Wednesday president trump described turkeys assaults the Kurdish population is vowing to resist the offensive thousands of civilians are fleeing Turkeys attack comes just days after in Syria targeting Kurdish controlled areas just days after president trump ordered US troops to fall back from their positions on the Turkish Syrian border president trump ordered US troops to fall back from their positions in northern Syria and abandoned support of their Kurdish allies trump is the Syrian observatory for Human Rights reports at least sixteen Kurds have been killed so far Turkey claims the death toll is over one hundred as a bad idea but defended his decision by saying the Kurds didn't help us with Normandy now the Kurds are fighting for the land just comedy as an example they mentioned names of different battles when asked what would happen with Isis prisoners were freed he responded they'll go to your doc the US ambassador to the European Union from speaking to the three congressional committees leading the inquiry this is House Intelligence Committee chair Adam Schiff speaking Wednesday come to democracy now democracy now dot Org the Warren Peace report I'm Amy Goodman Turkey launched an aerial and ground assault Wednesday and Tori has moved several dozen Slavic state prisoners to more secure locations the European Union has warned Turkeys hostilities would quote further Tanna in August just two weeks after her eighteenth birthday she is among at least twenty seven indigenous girls and women reported missing or up we'll have more on the Turkish offensive after headlines in Washington the White House budget office said Wednesday will not comply with a congressional subpoena here is also growing the Turkish assault could lead to the escape of Isis fighters imprisoned in northern Syria The New York Times is reporting the US of different battles then we look at the disturbing death of Sarah stopped pretty places a native American teenager who was found dead in defending his decision despite bipartisan criticism in Washington and now the Kurds are fighting for the land just so you understand fighting for their land for documents relating to Ukraine this comes one day after the White House said it would refuse to cooperate with the impeachment probe the State Department has also checked ourselves until the last crop blood we are ready to face any kind of attack as Turkey launches a ground and air assault on northern Syria understand they're fighting for their land and somebody wrote in a very very powerful article today they didn't help us in the Second World War they didn't help us with no by the failure to produce this witness the failure to produce these documents we consider yet and somebody wrote it a very very powerful article today they didn't help us in the Second World War they didn't help us with Normandy as an example they mentioned additional strong evidence of obstruction of the constitutional functions of Congress a CO equal branch of government meanwhile presidential hopeful Joe Biden called for president trump's impeachment for the first time Wednesday Donald Trump is violated his oath of office betrayed lead this nation and committed impeachable acts to preserve our constitution our democracy contenders to call for trump's impeachment president trump is facing dozens of new allegations of sexual assault and other inappropriate sexual behavior allegations that's on top of the already two dozen accusations of attempted rape sexual assault rape and forced groping that president trump is that's according to a new book called all the President's Women Donald Trump and the making of a Predator the book includes forty three new execute He should be impeached former vice president. Joe Biden is among the last of the major twenty twenty Democratic presidential already facing in a newly released excerpt of the book a woman named Karen Johnson says trump hid behind a tapestry mar-a-lago then grabbed I didn't have a say in the matter unquote meanwhile former NBC today show host Matt Lauer has denied accusations that he raped NBC addict. Gunman killed two people outside a synagogue in the eastern city of Halla on Wednesday as congregants observe Yom Kippur the holiest day her and forcibly kissed her without her consent at a New Year's Eve party in the early two thousands she said quote I was so scared because of who he was I don't even know where it came in Judaism the gunman livestream the attack spewing misogynistic racist and Anti Semitic language before he tried to force his community say they were no police stationed outside the synagogue at the time of the attack despite the synagogues repeated requests for Security Antisocial Enviros new book catch and Kill Nevels called Lowers denial a case study in victim blaming in Germany a heavily armed anti way into the synagogue the door was locked he shot a woman outside than drove to a nearby Kebab shop and open fire leaders of the Jews the producer Brooke novels in a hotel room in Sochi Russia in two thousand fourteen as they covered the winter Olympics the accusations are detailed and at least thirty Afghan civilians airstrikes targeting drug laboratories in western Afghanistan in May the Pentagon disputes the United Nations findings claiming announced he would reshuffle his cabinet in an effort to quell massive nationwide protests over government corruption and lack of jobs amnesty the crimes and seeing the phobic hate crimes have increased by almost twenty percent in Germany over the past year United Nations has accused the US military of killing and arrested at hospitals journalists have also reported being harassed and intimidated protests have also erupted now jury and recent national says more than one hundred fifty people have been killed and the government's brutal crackdown activists report protesters being shot and killed by snipers the drug lab workers were members of the Taliban the laboratories were mostly producing methamphetamine the United States is spent over eight billion dollars weeks ahead of elections in December over one hundred student protesters were arrested Tuesday is the government intensified its crackdown. The activists are Justin corruption the jailing of opposition leaders and the army's powerful role in national politics in Egypt the family of prominent Egyptian dissident uh-huh fatter says he has been beaten threatened and abused in custody since being arrested late last month made in anti-government protests the aurthorities have arrested more than two thousand people since the protests began to see our discussion about what's happening in Iraq you can go to democracy now dot Org Chapo back in the United States the FBI has carried out thousands of unconstitutional warrantless searches of the national security agencies government respect the rights and autonomy of indigenous communities the activists also denounced what they refer to as the ECO side of their land at the hand of Capitalism Racism and Patriarchy in Honduras hundreds of people protested Wednesday against present one Orlando Hernandez and accused him of having ties in Argentina dozens of indigenous women locked themselves inside the Ministry of the Interior and Buena Sites Wednesday night demanding the Argentine a two thousand seventeen the FBI illegally queried the NSA's database nearly seven thousand times using people's social an anti-drug operations during the ongoing US Warren Afghanistan the longest war in US history in Iraq Prime Minister Abdel Maddie cities have been implicated in human rights violations and abuses and the implementation of China's campaign of repression mass arbitrary detention and ns groups students labor unions and others continue their massive anti austerity protests Marino Lee ended a decades old fuel subsidy program last week as part of a so-called reform plan imposed by the International Monetary Fund amend the FBI failed to meet minimum legal standards to protect people's Fourth Amendment Rights to privacy on one day alone in December Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court that was declassified this week in the partially redacted ruling Judge James Bowes Berg deter already numbers the United States has blacklisted twenty-eight Chinese companies government offices and security bureaus over their alleged role in China's is blocked roads leading to London City Airport and held a sit in protest inside the terminal disrupting flights in central London hundreds of ED technology surveillance unquote the move comes days before trade talks between the US and China and extinction the United States he's also accused of having personally accepted a million dollar bribe meant for president or Anandas from the notorious Mexican drug lord known as ask Computer Archives including the protected personal data of US citizens and residents that's according to a ruling last October by the secret after Ecuador took a four point two billion dollar loan from the earlier this year to see our coverage Ecuador go to democracy now dot org controlled-areas the offensive began Wednesday just days after president trump ordered US troops to fall back from their positions on the Turkish Syrian border the only in protests are continuing around the globe with nonviolent actions demanding urgent action on the climate crisis this morning protesters welcome to our listeners and viewers around the country and around the world Turkey has launched an aerial and ground assault on northern Syria targeting Kurdish mass imprisonment of Muslim leaguers and other minority groups and the far western region of Xinjiang the US Commerce Department said quote these and sized a European Union. Pull yourself together I say it again if you try to label this operation as an getting has been in the Syrian town of Taleb Yod Turkish jets and artillery have reportedly hit at least eighty one targets east of the Euphrates River the the journalist James Foley and Steven Satloff the Turkey assault is facing international condemnation the UN Security Council because we spoke to democracy now correspondence reform bill could use in Ecuador a national strike paralyzed parts of the country Wednesday as indeed rural dozen Islamic state prisoners to more secure locations this includes two British members of Isis who are accused of beheading Western hostages including you know what President Marino's economic measures we do not want him as president and all of those who favor of those measures are against the people the protests began after Ecuador and president trump administration has faced widespread criticism from both Republican and Democratic lawmakers for abandoning the stateless Kurds who'd help the US fight Isis fighters and their families in detention while president trump has claimed Turkey will take control of the makeshift jails there's growing concern many former Isis fighters earlier today Turkish president rip type aired one has threatened to send millions of Syrian refugees to Europe if Turkey's assault is Chris as to drug traffickers the Honduran president's brother Tony Anandas is on trial in New York City on accusations of trafficking tons of cocaine through Honduras bound for Turkey is claiming the assault is needed to establish a quote safe zone in northern Syria where Turkey could relocate Syrian refugees who fled over the past eight the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reports at least sixteen Kurds have been killed so far turkeys claiming the death toll is far higher some of the heaviest fighting tens of thousands of lives their homes their lands their agricultural production so all their livelihood in order to defeat we'll be able to escape during the Turkish assault at least one Kurdish prison has already been shelled the New York Times reporting the US military has moved as many as seven was expected to meet later today. The European Union has worn Turkeys hostilities would quote further undermined the stability of the whole region go to democracy now dot org and those are some of the headlines this is democracy now democracy now dot Org the Warren Peace report I'm Amy Goodman and I mean she Asian it's very simple we will open the gates and send three point six million refugees your way on Wednesday president trump described Turkeys assault as mothers with babies blocked traffic and Hilda nursing on Wednesday this is protesters Sally Davies what planet are they going to have today between president trump and the Turkish precedent aired one and apparently trump tells him the US will pull Adia but defended his decision to shift US troops away from the Syrian Turkish border here in New York protesters demonstrated on Wednesday in front of the offices of D Kurdish women's movement activists she's an anthropologist at the London School of Economics in Brussels Belgium we're joined by air to rule Kirk Cha knowing that the Turkish assault could lead to the mass release of Isis fighters of until now the Kurds have been responsible for holding over ten thousand Isis paying with their lives for having protected our lives we're starting right now with two guests and London were joined by L. F. Sara Khan Democrat Senator Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand in New York City demanding the US defend the Kurdish autonomous region known as Rhodesia this is push for this for many months if not years and finally somehow through quite a mysterious cliff conversation trump agreed the honorary chair of the pro-kurdish People's Democratic Party known as the HD he he's a former member of parliament and Turkey we welcome you both to democracy withdraw the few US soldiers that were position there and just to make clear that the US army the US trump himself the Syrian democratic years of fighting but the Kurds see the offensive as part of a decades long attack by Turkey to crush their attempts at greater autonomy fears also oops back in northern Syria and aired one makes very clear he's going to attack this area with Turkish troops is is so that the European and US citizens are comfortable in their homes and now they're once again do we know about casualties both civilian a Kurdish civilian casualties as well as a casualties among the SDF Turkey is relentlessly attacking with us made arms and ammunition a US ally the SDF the Syrian democratic forces it's essentially threatening a Kurdish genocide it will it's not even just a possibility it will create and caused a resurgence of Isis it will add to the those who were also trained and armed by the US now what do you understand is happening today in these last two days what the national refugee crisis but also equally as importantly it will crush the democratic ecological women's liberationist experiment that has been happy them governor and assistant professor of sociology and Anthropology at Cuny the City University of New York Kurds have lost. Thousands reported quite horrific scenes of civilians killed but left on the left on the street because people can't get to them because the shelling is coordinated attacks in six all areas of northern Syria and the Turkish army with its ally Jihadi forces don't seem to want to says at least fifteen injured civilians and also CNN reporter Clerks Award was going through part of the region yesterday and today was the beginning of this invasion the long promised invasion by Turkish President add-on and as many people have said as a consensus all around the world and with public opinion is the consequences of this are can be grave and will be great it's not only that it's a though it's because the situation is unfolding so quickly it's quite difficult to get any precise figures at this moment but says and Turkey were well aware that these troops still remained posted there essentially to act as human shields to stop a Turkish invasion now what we saw explain what has happened since I mean just to give it some context an this is not a new Development Air Dole has been trying to how else Sarah come let's begin with you let's start at the beginning what we understand what you understand is happening on the ground now you have this conversation last son today they didn't help us in the Second World War they didn't help us with Normandy as an example they mention names of different battles and he also stop by any means I wanted to bring Aero Kirk into the conversation and get your response to what president trump is now just saying curtis forces have fought alongside the US against Isis for nearly half a decade Nearly eleven thousand fighters dead on Wednesday trump critic eight house during an event in the Roosevelt Room now the Kurds are fighting for the land just so you understand that fighting for the land and somebody wrote in a very very powerful official figures that we've had in the last in the last twenty four hours the is that there's over ten civilians that have been killed Ed The Washington Post is reporting the US military has no plans to intervene if Syrian Kurdish forces leave their posts guarding isis prisons raising the why the United States is having a function in the Middle East this was not trump's own idea so intense and in terms of the SDF again they we don't we don't know the exact figures we know this clashes with as six a terrorist organizations which could be video whom should be stopped by a International Corporation and I didn't want them from US Air Toril character your honorary chair of the pro-kurdish People's Democratic Party if you could respond to both of these points go to Europe you know this is not only for the Ming there as well as the Kurds fighting against isis but left the situation is quite extraordinary a US NATO ally this is the Kurds saying they didn't help the United States during the battle of Normandy in World War Two this is trump speaking to reporters of the what's that the Kurds didn't help the US at Normandy in World War Two and if the ISIS personnel get freed they can national what will happen to the eleven thousand Isis militants and their families currently detained in some twenty prisons and camps under Kurdish control so the president trump was asked about you better understanding of the cost of things but trump doesn't understand that's Wednesday isis fighters escape and pose a threat elsewhere well they're going to be escaping to Europe that's where they want to go they want to go back to their homes but coach but for all the world and for the Americans themselves that they are governed by the most ignorant person in the world as a statesman he he doesn't even know that the coach didn't have a state they were not a party to the Second World War is al Qaeda and the second one is I says which is a pinpointed by the United Nations as the what will happen to isis prisoners that escaped from prisons that they'll simply go to Europe which deeply change all the cost of things in the Middle East in Syria and at the middle of the road the I'm not going to have so I couldn't give myself I would be able to look her in the Aldrich didn't come out and do something to see all our coverage of extinction rebellion protests or what I would like to say that it was the worst idea also by the Obama administration ignorant and reckless person who is the leader of the United States number one in world order which was based on the outcome of the Second World War and secondly he has no understanding of the country in the world which assumes Huger responsibilities for the peace in the world for the stability in the so now Donald Trump himself may be the biggest problem for the Middle East peace and his response to intervene in the Middle East of has to a export to regime change in Syria The Warren nor Mandy and why the coach Burnt Dash Ace oh he he's totally ignorant of the realities of he said he doesn't have any other opportunity than to cooperate with us because they are a at loggerheads leading the United States where into an abyss I see we're going to break and come back to this discussion Aero Kirk Minister of domestic affairs or the interment Interior Minister in response to question says I all the world so they should qualis with us now we have a country led by a government activists speaking to us from London We will also be joined by Debbie option co-founder of the Emergency Committee for Java this is democracy stay during a massacres are under two hundred Turkish people ninety nine percent of so it's a pity that the United States and the world is now within the lips of Oh martyr government dissidents have been killed and today in a very interesting is statement Turkish Obama Administration changed their course and took the says as the Anima Number One this was a a problem not only for the United States or Europe but for the United Nations says one of the two groups I mean anything for Donald Trump but he forgets nine eleven I think they were in the United States to a an interior minister who believes isis will be their ally so we have done to problem artery chair of the pro-kurdish People's Democratic Party is speaking to us from Brussels Belgium and Aleve Sara Khan is a Kurdish women's movement they're the real situation in the field is even more problematic than donald trump in believes to be they're not only going to escape to Europe they are going to operate in Turkey and until the Sunday caused the lives of three thousand Americans it's a it's a pity that really and this guy is are they were and slate by four different countries in the Middle East and he's now speaking about Eh. This was an immense problem for the American interest as well as the Syrian interests and as well as the Kurdish and the court our guests are actual character the honorary chair of the pro-kurdish People's Democratic Party joining us from Belgium from Brussels in Belgium and under the second one is Donald Trump that isis is a European problem so that Europe's Europeans should tackle the problem it doesn't insulin lemonade. Y Y Y Dark John F. Kurdish women's movement activists also Debbie Book China's with us in New York Co founder of the -mergency committee for Rochon Santa What it means for the civilized world and Middle Eastern Europe why isis she now back in a minute no is it all on it says begetting online sir one is the Turkish official approach to Isis it a kind of an ally against the coach region and for a volt battery people will have to leave in here constellations You're buying by Maranda de la Frontera this is democracy now I'm Amy Goodman with nermeen shape and another module we send a message the whole world again we will not target Turkey but if they insist on attacking us an occupying our land we will trigger are right in defending our sinkers and ceases Chris for getting on in good year but do it on is important I think to remind people that over ten thousand SDS fighters have died in the fight against Isis. I'd like to ask L. If you said earlier of course that there is a real risk of a Kurdish genocide given what's happening and it's also being included in the rewriting of the Syrian constitution and being included in political development of the region as well and this is one of the reasons to come to a political diplomatic and peaceful solution to the future of the people of Syria in general which means the Syrian Democratic must be that the recognition is that this is is in some ways less about the US but more about the invasion if that makes sense so therefore why the situation has got to go to whereas today because there was a tactical alliance between the US and the Democratic Forces in the fight against Isis solution must be you know whether it's including Syria as well and Russia and the US the actors in the region including Turkey to why not to be able to against this assault could you talk about whether you think that's true and what the implications of that would be for the Kurds also which is the umbrella formation that also includes a Syrian democratic forces have said they will negotiate and they will sit at Table Two thousand people out of population of eight hundred thousand again mostly Kurdish people so even at that time a now it continues the Syrian Democratic receive any support from anybody some have said that they're likely to be forced to turn to Assad in an attempt to defend themselves again invaded Afrin causing a couple of months one thousand killing'c one thousand people mostly civilians causing the displacement of three hundred this show soldiers should return there of course as a short-term solution that would solve solve the push back the invasion and therefore who's at a table with any actor in the region to bring about a peaceful solution to the conflict and the situation of the region and you know and the effects of on the wider Middle East and also the world so this does bring the question of the ultimate aim of all of this needs to be of course as so amy as you say there's been eleven thousand people martyred in the Fight Against Isis twenty two thousand wounded the consequences of a Turkish invasion will be we don't have to look too far in January two thousand eighteen the Turkish army again allied with ground forces but strategically there was never any political alliances and this is what needs to be developed right now because the question isn't sh I don't think the question should be whether you sewn to which millions of Syrian refugees can be returned but there have been numerous reports of Turkey recently violently deporting thousand save the lives of millions of people but ultimately there needs to be a political solution and that's what the people of northern Syria and the Syrian Democratic Council have been in this fight including many international volunteers from the US from the UK as well and other countries included now to see what of Syrian refugee men and boys back to Syria Turkish border guards have reportedly shot and killed Syrians when they tried returning to Turkey to re he said the US was the US soldiers acting as human shields essentially but that that was always going to be a solution that expired so the solution continue to call for L. as you know one of the principal objectives that everyone has said for the military invasion is creating a safe unite with their families now you've spent time talking to Syrian refugees who've attempted to flee through Turkey what did the Syrian refugees tell do about how they've been treated by Turkey so I was in a refugee camp in Greece in two thousand sixteen I sent spent a short time with that at this camp as well and it was a it was almost every single person we spoke to spoke about the brutality of the Turks shorts I'm talking with them discuss their most of them at this cam happened to be Kurdish but there was also Syrian Arabs and other people's he's at the border of when they were trying to cross the extortion of these people making you confiscating their their belongings they're good for shooting refugees trying to flee into Turkey in the first place is not a new thing now the forcing of Syrian refugees back into Syria if they had any golden money on them to obviously try and live and look after their families a lot of the time these were confiscated they reported things like doing work for Syrian brothers and sisters in this region is is absolutely unprecedented because often wildly at some of these trying to work local places and and because there was no protection their wages not being paid and so therefore September with an with a map essentially declaring that he was going to alter the demographic of this region and quote unquote settle his a war crime but also to force the movement of people in voluntarily and also to alter the demographic again Mo- almost almost entirely is not a voluntary move so adwan declaring the general assembly of the United Nations on the twenty fourth is do not declare beforehand they're about to commit war crimes you know firstly a unprovoked attack is obviously by definition by the UN Norberg principle to us on the receiving end seems bizarre but it also seems like he's very very good as you've already mentioned today out blackmailing of a region is again by definition ethnic cleansing and aired on all of this publicly at the United Nations a few weeks ago but for some reason he can do and get away with that the three point five million Syrian refugees that he holds in Turkey unfortunately in very bad conditions but nonetheless they're there and he somehow preventing folks titled What the West It's best ally against Isis. There are many who have not heard of Roach Debbie if you can explain what it is and -nificant today in what's happening just this week that's right thank you I mean you know one of the things that we we focus on is isis which is obviously been an critically important part of the United States relationship with the Kurds but in addition to discussing what the Kurds have been fighting against it's incredibly really unparalleled right now in the twenty first century it is a society that is focused on the ideals of grassroots democracy them from getting to Europe I also WanNa bring it's also I wanted to bring into this conversation Debbie Book Chen Co founder of the Emergency Committee for Java her father the late political philosopher Murray Jan helped to inspire the Kurdish movement in Rajab she just returned from there a few months ago and wrote a piece for the New York review both the local level and that means especially in the Middle East feminist society and I was just there and I had the opportunity to talk to many people and if you look but there are also a hundred thousand families that are now being held in camps and many of these women there's many children of course as well but many the specially the ones who streamed out of couse at the near the end of the so-called Caliphate the defeat of the caliphate are very hard core critically important and especially to the progressive community and the American left to talk about what they are fighting for and that is a society that is and not being included as part of the negotiations on the future of Syria but I think what's critically important and I am very proud of the fact that a lot of my fathers ideas Syria is now the Kurds are really helping run is huge landmass basically a third of Syria which is another reason why it's absurd that anywhere in the world who consider themselves progressive or a feminist should be very strongly behind the ROSIA project so that's one very chrissy feminism and ecology and explain exactly where Regina is well Rajab is along the northern third ah what they are doing there and if you look at for example the social contract which is their equivalent of our constitution it enshrines the rights of women in a way that very important aspect of it and I think that the other thing that I just want to emphasize is that you know there are not only ten or twelve thousand isis prisoners extension of a Turkish Islamic state in which they've taken away people's rights in which they looted robbed kid influenced the Rosia van society what is critically important is that they are saying that we have to create a society that truly empowers put our constitution to shame Franklin so really we're talking about a very progressive society and I think anybody in the United States actually this is a this is the exact your crocodile tears is not enough we have to actually become active and the progressive left should really play a huge role in this is not something that we should example of what an unjust war is it has a has no legal basis it has no legitimate basis for shame of the Progressive Community in American left that there hasn't been more support for Rosia over the years we haven't heard our Democratic candidates relieve and talk about area and this is a

Turkey Donald Trump United States president Syria assault Europe Joe Biden big Horn New York Chris Matt Lauer NBC Ecuador NBC Turkish army United Nations Syrian Observatory European Union Karen Johnson
Elle Rowleys advice for moms: a candid convo about covid survival, PPD, and being intentionally positive in uncertainty

Mint Arrow Messages

50:31 min | 1 year ago

Elle Rowleys advice for moms: a candid convo about covid survival, PPD, and being intentionally positive in uncertainty

"The following podcast is a deer media production. Today's episode is brought to you by Kiko. Get your first month. France select crates at Kiko Dot com slash mint Aero L. Raleigh is the founder of solly baby, a wildly popular baby rap company that's now expanded to swaddled and crib sheets and baby clothes, and beyond L. is a mother of four, an entrepreneur and a leader I look. Look up to so much for advice on everything from motherhood to marketing, and she really has a gift for being calming and reassuring and connecting with women today I sit down with L. Virtually and have a conversation about her best advice for new moms and season MOMS. About current times we're living in and how to be intentionally positive during the pandemic, and as things move forward. On a personal note, we also get into some talk about postpartum depression and I almost had neil cut that part out of the interview, because it got exceptionally personal for me, but I feel like the value and the worth of the things that Al told me was so good that I decided to leave that in and I. Hope it helps them other moms to who may be feeling. Either just regular depression postpartum depression because Ellsworth's were so calming and so helpful for me so I. Hope they help you to. Today my friends I have a dear friend of mine with me. Her name is l., and she is the boss Woman Queen Behind, sully baby and I am just so thrilled to have a conversation with her. She's someone I really look up to as far as an entrepreneur, a mom female empower. And I just love her much, so l. stay. Hi, and introduce yourself. All my goodness Cran. I'm so happy to be here. You're just one of my favorite people on the planet and always always phone by talking to you is on interaction. No I want you to tell everybody if they've never heard of Sally Baby, what it is and how you got started with, that could have been more specific when I said Internet. And also you're married to jared and you have. Little beautiful kids. Do I yes, I started. A baby wrapped carrier business almost ten years ago. which seems so crazy to me now when I was having myself baby Solomon. Solly and started on midnight living room in Salt Lake City, and then and an Essen shop, and then just kind of. It sounds too simplistic to say just grew and grew a lot of. Hard work and a lot of struggle, not growing and growing, and you know excel on not always on that same roller. So now we have a teen in Carlsbad California and San Diego County and. That's what I do I love it and I work with a few other businesses I. Invested partners well I love working with female embiid is. So wonderful and Sali baby started out as you said a rap company, but now you guys do more. You Do Swat Osen. Yeah, like we kind of in my favorite part about a routes through the blending modal, this really soft can battery soft, but lightweight fabric and fell like what else could we make out of this? Yeah this is Kinda. Naturally followed people. Some customers to said hey leak. Not I will be love this as a crunchy or it'd be be hot or so. It's been fun. Yes and we absolutely love all the soybean me line items that we have in our home to their so perfect and that wrap my only regret without a bell is not having the rap with first baby became to. It has been. It has been a lifesaver from going to the beach to walking around Costco to you know being able to make dinner and still hold the baby. You know it's always like right at dinnertime is the only T. The one time that baby wants to be held like the witching hour away, so yeah good insists a lifesaver. So, I actually we'll have to. Have you injured on again some time, because I've brought you guys up on the podcast before like the Dream Team. Working together and you guys are. Entrepreneurs that we really admire and respect, but I actually brought l. on the podcast today to talk about these like many education series that she's been doing on instagram sense, the pandemic started, and they've been super helpful to me and my mental health, and so instead of just having a conversation with Alan, keeping it all to myself I thought it would benefit my audience so much to share with everyone else to and just talk through some of these beautiful ideas that you've been sharing so I wanna start out by asking what inspired this mini series. The you guys have been doing. While I actually I don't talk about this time, but about eighteen months ago, I actually went through life coaching program on my own, and just because I. Felt like there were got into this podcast with jody war and then and his life coach. Life Coach School and then got me on by coach in it. Just I felt like there were all these train of gaps in my emotional kind of understanding or maturity and Mike as soon as I started learning about us like Gosh, this wouldn't have been so helpful like not only years ago like we should learn the staff in elementary school. Yes like just like we go to gym class. They should be like mental health class. Totalling and until an emotional, but especially in motherhood, and in so I thought I I. Love that you know I. Have this for talking to Moms all day long and a lot of moms come to me for advice for different reasons whether that's you know trying to work in have babies, or you know just with their own babies, and which I'm not an expert about it, so a lot of moms come and. And I would really love to have advice. It's like really meaningful and to have a little more depth to what I'm sharing in, so I kinda just did the whole training for myself I own family, but then also for our community that you knew he gives them empowering tools or that postpartum on and beyond and pardon when you're kind of in that fog, and you need somebody like harder a little bit. I'm in the fog I'm currently. By the fog, so man I I lived in the fog for a long time after each may baby, so I can I can relate to that, and it's not you know doesn't make it perfect, but I think if I can give those little nuggets where you know you're maybe at the NBA rope just a little bit for the day or month or year than I love. Love that we can, we can share that, but then with Cove Ed i. just you know with our team. It was actually really scary time in solidarity, because all of our production shutdown, and we actually didn't know who able to ship, so we had like six weeks of inventory of twenty three employees and I'm and really almost overnight. I was like we might we might not. Make arrests like if we if we can't ship with bat weeks left of this business. It was really scary what we did as a team which I just love our so much but I. Had a meeting and I said. Here's the reality. These are sacrifices. We're all GONNA need to make, but we need to be there for me right now. How can we you know we might be suffering here? But that postpartum? Mom who thought she was going to have meals, and GRANDPA and her parents and everybody else. You know to support and now hot doesn't have maybe working from home with their other kids. She need us, you know. How can we best show up in? So that really I was just completely focused at the beginning of Krono virus, especially on creating these guides and webinars in different different ways to give emotional support so. That is so cool and I had no idea that you went through this life coach training. What an amazing gift to give to your family and your community. That's so cool. So a few days ago, I did a survey on my insta- stories about what mom's doing to keep the kids busy during the summer and I got so many dams back, saying police share what people are doing. Please share with us. The answers that you get because I need to know to what to do to keep my kids busy all summer and I have to tell you my kids favorite thing that they keep asking for over and over and they check the mail for. For diligently is Kiwi Co and they love their Kiwi Co create so much, and I love them, too. Because it's a way to keep my girls busy with science technology, and these are real engineering, science and art projects for your kids, and they come with super high quality materials to so it's not something that's going to fall apart. In fact, Neal made this little lantern with Annabelle and it was so cute, and she was so proud of herself, and they've been using it. Every night pretty much since then they like. Put it in their little forts, and they take to bed and they just the girls think it is so fun and I especially loved the antibodies so proud of herself because she made it herself, so Lila actually made a little game to with like a rubber band, and these discs and she was playing with the over. Over, and over, and Millie thought it was so fun to to watch her play with it, and it's just been so cool to see. My girls take ownership and something that they made themselves, and that they can play with over and over because the materials are so high quality and I know we've all been home for months, so it kind of feels like. Like you really need something new, and the Nice thing is you can either setup a subscription where you're getting. Kiwi Co crates every month for the different ages of the kids that you have in your family, so there's different levels depending on how old they are of the education that they're learning about, or you can just do a one time if that's better. Better for you. There's no commitment you composite. Cancel anytime. Kiko is redefining play with hands on projects that build confidence, creativity and critical thinking skills. There's something for every kid or kid at heart at Kiwi Co, get your first month. Free on select creates a Kiwi. Co Dot com slash mint Aero. That's K.. I W I C O dot com slash meant aero. So quickly before we move onto the guides. Tell me what what was your favorite thing that you learned and your life coach school I think. Maybe the biggest thing. Is that like you can't hate yourself into lovey? and which is you know something that I'd heard before, but to really see that mapped out older, and over of how those negative thoughts, how just it never leads to positive results so in a very practical level to see I feel like that really that changed me kind of at my core. With how I talked to my kids and raise my kids, and but especially with myself his it just I think is women especially bills really useful to on some level. Shame ourselves or guilt ourselves into the action that we wanted to see. And it just never leads to lasting positive change in in really understanding that has changed my relationship with myself in a huge way. That is beautiful. I love that and it's so true. I don't know why we self defecate or. You know, tear ourselves down, thinking that's going to be productive. I! Do all the time and you're right. The positive momentum works so much better. So. Let's talk about I loved that. You guys. Stood this affirmation. There were nine affirmations to empower you through a pandemic. Where did these affirmations come from there so good and we could read through them I. Have Them Right here. But where did they come from? A lot has came through my trae me I. Mean it's funny because I think you could distill like those affirmations or pandemic. Are probably really similar to the ones I did to like New Year's resolutions for the new mom or Because those I there, there's such a strong correlation in how. I don't know in like the kind of foundational thoughts that really motivate us in. Really empower us in, so I really just got into. In touch with the struggles that we might all be having and then thought what might be thought that would serve. US Better right now than was just so hard, or there's so much uncertainty or I. Don't you know I feel powerless in one of my brain goes to what's an opposite of that? How could you flip that on its head? How this may be like the best thing that's ever happened? And how is God really making working in your life right now in a way that is gonna like come out to this really happy endings I. Think when we really believe that everything comes to this happy ending in our lives then that changes how we experience so much the present we know and we I do that. It's really easy for all that fear to come in. Because we're just afraid, it's humid end up. On some level, yes, well, and how many times have we a million times over? We're living in unprecedented times where you know just the same narratives over and over that are very fear based so. I just want to read through. These are so good unless you're unless you okay. Mic I don't want to put on the spot and but I. don't want to take them away from you now. Okay so nine affirmations to empower you through a pandemic number one. There's always more in my control than out of it. Number two I know everything I need to know today number three I control me number for external circumstances. Do not control my experience number five. I can make a beautiful life. No matter what number six I will focus on what is in my control number seven I always make lemonade out of lemons. Today seven Oh eight. This is my mom. Bring Number Eight. What if this is making me into the next version of me? I really love that one and number nine. I am a fighter I. AM strong and I was made for this. So so many good thoughts. Do you want to expand on any of those? I mean I. Think they control the was. It has been the toughest thing for most of us events of Jota, feeling a loss of control, even though as I'm sure you've heard to other people say the futures was always uncertain. We saw we knew it may march was going to be like an April. and May we have this idea? It never would have been with that how we imagined in any way. Right never is oh true. To have that really at a whole new level where we really. Don't now, but it's just funny because we really never know. Right, and so it is a it. It is a good kind of Practice of like some radical acceptance of like the here now you know because all suffering all suffering is rooted in. Fighting with reality in some way. The expectations, yes, what life was going to be? That's so true that that concept of surrender is a really powerful one that, at least that's like the word that Neil and I us because we're so twelve step recovery based in our marriage and in our family, but it is so necessary to have sanity or to restore. Sanity is like how we talk about it. In terms of recovery is to surrender your need to control things, or you need to know what the future is. You know that really is such a powerful thing. Oh Abs- leading to control. We'll I think that once. We can't really get to that next step of creating something better than you envisioned in. Tell me first hand that surrender that acceptance. That like okay, what you know. I can let go of this piece, but what is in my control which really? Anytime, we ask that question like Oh. Actually most things are still my control. So I feel like you guys did a great job to of turning the lemons until lemonade during the pandemic, and you shared a little bit on social media about how things really took a turn for the better and Kinda just worked out. Can you talk to me about how that happened for you guys and how you lead your team into that direction? Yeah I, I mean I think we were as proactive as we possibly could have been in the beginning and Bat, and we made a Lotta seasons right then like I mean I personally. You Know Jeremiah we cut our pay by like two thirds something just like okay. Let's just WANNA. Save everything that we possibly can to build up our reserves so that we can handle whatever and everybody on our team took. Some type of a kite is. And I think that that those are really unifying experience grass that van made. Everything else so much easier after that were. We were just like we are all in on. This were all in on the uncertainty and the lack of control, and now what is in our control? What can we do? How can we best protect ourselves and we kind of spun for a minute likeb plan after plan because I. think that that's also as definitely where my brain goes like I'm going to try to control it over and over and over, and for every possible scenario, an Uber News cycle is just so so fast just like especially here in California. Every time I woke up, it was yeah, it was something new every time I. Open my phone the next morning. It was like a totally new development every day. You're like okay. What is this even essential business shelter in place all of those things? And? So at some point our deal. And he enjoyed. We were like okay. We're done. We're done planning for. We've done everything we can, and if we end up having to shut down like we're up without like as much as we can be. And then, what was miraculous really truly from there was. Like within the next week, our sales just like. Not just stabilized, but grew and I think it was just you know. I know that I feel bad on the same, not because no for so many other. There's some luck, not depending on what industry you're in. If you're brick, mortar versus online, but I think with so many people at home they were you know more APP Ted by a gift online or You know just by by from mass directly instead of in store, and so so then y'all. We've experienced growth through this period. So then we're able to like we you know. Pay All bar. Get our employees and payback. We did stay there for a while. We're like we just WANNA be smart is possible can build up reserves which we did, and then we're able to you know back everything from those cuts, and it was just like I. Don't know really just fill totally totally miraculous immune. Like our team is strong I'm so much stronger were able to just I. Do think that those it's like stinks that it has to come out of hard things you. Might make such progress, yeah! A seems to be the way right. Yeah, that would course story. So taking a little bit of shift into the mom space because year I. Feel like such a just a strong voice their. Tell me about some of the advice that you've been giving to MOMS postpartum MOMS. MOMS of all ages have kids about you know staying sane and having calm in your life, and doing these like self care things that are I love what you said about having depths, not just like eat some chocolate. You'll be fine, but you know some of these things that really have depths about your thoughts and your intentions Tell me about that what you've the advice that you've been giving moms yet. Well could use her never about idea. I will say that. Is I even just say as making your mom's chocolate chip oatmeal cookie recipe? It always sounds so. But yeah I, really pushed hard on a couple of things one recognizing signs of. Depression because this is just going to be a time of higher susceptibility for everyone to have experienced depression, but I think moms are especially vulnerable because we're. We're being asked to do lake. Impossible thing. Now in terms like if you. And you've got kids, and you've got a new baby, and you know for so many moms at the time just doesn't add up and so I. Think Looking for those Red flags for postpartum, depression or depression in general is is really huge. Can't like, won't yourself out of a chemical imbalance? You know totally well, and so do you WanNa, talk through those really quick, but they are. Right year so one is on a lasting, sad anxious or food and I've read a few different time periods for Bat, or A week I think most around two weeks. I believed experience at longer than not and feelings of hopelessness or pessimism Alaska tighter over eating, and withdrawing from love blends, which a and I think that's a really tough lunch. Identify right now, and because they're being forced to so, but if you find yourself not even reaching out for tax calls, or you know that feeling when somebody you know your mom or somebody, close to you, causing like is just don't WanNa talk like. At can be a red flag. If you're doing not you find yourself doing that a few times a day, you know. Feeling now more disconnected from your baby and feelings of irritability, anger or restlessness difficulty, sleeping which is also really hard when to recognize with the newborns, but and investment worrying thoughts of harming yourself or your baby, which is of course like that's the one that is the biggest red flag that you get out immediately. You don't wait for me. Period of time, so that's definitely something that we've pushed really hard on. Is Postpartum Depression. Red Flags, but also just community finding community in different ways rate now and. Involving your family and your children's baby's life right now. which no, it's, it takes maybe a little more work, but then also not as much. Going out so baking matter priority like taking those pictures now like. Every day face timing because it's so awesome for not family, but really through your extended family that leave our for you in. There's a lot of sadness for people feeling like. Grandparents or other family or not a part of their kids, and especially those babies. Mike's Right now, so yeah. Yeah and it's. It's almost weird for me to listen to you. Re off that list because i Mike I check off almost all of this. And I'm right in the middle of trying to figure all of that out, but this was helpful for me to hear from my doctor recently when I told her at my two week appointment. That I was like I'm I'm pretty sure that I'm having postpartum depression. And she said all of my postpartum patients are struggling more than normal right now so. In. How can I turn this on you? How are you navigating, not a? I'm jess. I don't think I'm quite ready to talk about that yet. I'm still just right in the middle of trying to figure it all out, but the obvious they are reaching out for help, which is the biggest thing? Yeah Yeah, reaching out for a lot of help as much as I can as much, they can push myself. It is hard like when techs come in from people or people. Try to reach out where I'm. I'm right in that season of like. I don't have the energy tough conversations with people a lot of times. So That's a hard thing and I think that I. I hope that when I can get out of this and be more of myself because I'm definitely not myself right now that we can that I'll be able to have more productive conversation with my audience about how I was able to get through this because I'm still definitely. Like if I, had a broken leg. My leg is like definitely broken right now. It's not I'm not like back to walking running. I'm Mike Still on crutches. Totally, but you know what I think that that's like. The most important thing further stare because it's so easy. It's so much easier after when you have it. Nice and tidy in can look back and say okay, which is super important to that I like I love how open you learn about it. Not that you need to share anything you don't feel comfortable with ever just like I'm in it that like sense of. Reality like ducks such issue give such a huge sense of validation for other moms of like. I just think that that is probably the most inspiring thing that you could say now. We'll see here. Just life coaching. Sorry. Now so here head because you know what's funny is right when you asked me that I started getting like super triggered, and I thought I'll probably just tell take this out, but now that you're saying that I'm like. We probably should just leave it in and other moms know that if they're listening to. This feeling triggered to that. It's okay, and there's probably a lot of people. Probably everyone had to be recently is feeling. All those things, an ISO I've experienced depression breath as well like I think everyone on some level has experienced height level of anxiety or depression so young as a part of it. Yeah, that's well. That's true I. Think even for Neil Hopefully, he won't mind me like saying this, but you know he's still going through grieving process of. And I think that anything like that like any issue that you had in your life seems to kind of be. Amplified by all of this so. I think anything any type of like personal turmoil that you may have been dealing with on a smaller level is just. It's become even more challenging with all of these. Not doing answers and you're not doing it wrong. That's not a sign that you did something wrong, or you're not processing it the right way. It's like it's just a part of it. Yeah, so, what advice do you have for me in every other person that's listening to this going? Oh, that was kind of triggered me on. checked off on more than one of those things on I mean for sure if you haven't already talked to your healthcare provider like that's just just do it. It's nothing you know. can be scarier intimidating. Don't have to do whatever they save right. Just have that conversation. And and then I think beyond that. I heard a therapist one say. You should do. The opposite of whatever you feel like doing. Out So true yeah. Neil 'cause that contrary actions yeah I love inaugur recovery mindset of like. If you don't feel like making a call, you need to pick the phone and make a call. Yeah just kind of making not a habit and and I think for what coaching recall and thought downloads where it's like like journaling, but you're not necessarily writing about your day. It's kind of like a brain dump of your feelings and just wherever you are I do think that processing emotion which. Comes from not thought, download can be really helpful, which is really just whenever you're feeling intense feeling what we often do is we try to move right past it and push it down like a beach ball underwater, which doesn't work overtime right in so giving it a name and recognizing where you feel that emotion in your body like I feel at or I feel discouraged or whatever that name he miss that dot naming. Can you really powerful and then okay? This is wet. It's just you know this is negative. Feelings are just it's just a chemical reaction in your body, right? Sister released doing different things in your body right since where do I feel it my job. What is it is? Just taking not for your body, and then breathing through it I do think that that is what helps to not have a huge buildup of emotions, and I really tried to be conscientious about that like I'm kind of resisting something all day. What is it? What am I really feeling, we know. The part of the process as well. Okay I love that so a brain dump, and then what other like actionable things are there that you feel like? You've been able to coach MOMS through. Doing well, I loved this I loved that you talked about. Take a moment to mourn and grieve about like whatever you thought. This time was going to be in I. think that that's really healthy. Advice to because I think. Everyone gave something up during the quarantine right like everyone gave up a graduation or a story or a someone visiting or something that was going to mean a lot them or Even think about like I keep thinking about seniors that were supposed to play their last year of a sport and they. They'll never get that back or the parents that took them to practices from Lily on and thought this was going to be the big crowning year. And then that's just kind of over. You know absolutely yeah. I think that and it's easy to WANNA move. Really move past that really fast, and like Oh, but it's fine and I think taking a full stop there for a minute, not spending an old what? It should have been and what you know, but then there was in it, and like kind of like call out more the dirty pain. You're Kinda like. Taken a Mug back. You know instead of like. I thought it was going to be this. And it was this and I feel like film the blank. You know and then state with that is is can be a really healthy way to do that. where it doesn't spiral into into something bigger they're you know not that you can't write it all out, but I have found that to be really helpful of just really isolating what I thought. It was going to be into distilling it down into a sentence, and and grieving, not giving yourself however much time need for that to that could be a date could be a week. It should be thirty minutes you know. And I think that that can be especially helpful. I love that advice. I I also love that. You told people to stop watching the. High. Handle it. Have Your Partner Watch and fill you in. You'RE NOT GONNA. Miss Anything life changing right. We'll an, but you know piece of that, too. Is for some people this time has been. Really. Really sweet in different ways and really, and shouldn't. We've all had some parts that were more joyful than we thought, but for some people. Maybe that has just been an upside for you, and that is awesome. You don't need to feel bad for enjoying that. It doesn't help anybody else. FOR UNIFIL guilty Abou- loving quarantine, and I think just embracing your own experience in not feeling like I should be experiencing it this way. sides of that both sides of the point, right? There's no should with this. It's just like what is experienced I'm having. In that I want to have an. Embracing. Yeah. I loved to that. You talked about engaging with nature everyday. So where did the inspiration for that? Come from? Well I read actually some articles from a few different website, medical websites for helping women of depression and depression in general, and that connection and is is really strong. Those are pretty medically. You know rooted organizations and Morse it's like more holistic approaches well, but I don't like. Go like meditate in the woods. To that you're going to do that. Most of US probably aren't GonNa do that, but you know if you are that, you know if you're breastfeeding a baby, just put that or not. Even if you have a window in your apartment in announced where you've been stack, put a chair by the window you know. Get the sunlight in or get some with your groceries. Get some flowers like just those touches like. Of just nature and natural things I think can really remind us of kind of like looking up in the sky. Where you're like this huge world, it just gives you a bigger perspective and. A little more and I think or something berry like healing in spiritual. Connects with the divine. That's so true and every time we go to the beach, or if I was back at home, and in Utah close to the mountains. It's like there's something so powerful about. Just things that were made by God that. It's just above everything else in our world. I don't. I don't know how to describe that, but yeah, it does have extra healing powers, and I love that so I also loved you said this is so practical and perfect. Don't feel bad about enjoying it. Make it fun. Have a socially distance picnic with friends. Order takeout rewatch all nine seasons of the office. Wrap your little one and get your bake on. You just had a baby the time to celebrate. And I think that. Sometimes to it can feel like at least for me I can only speak from my own experience, but in the last five weeks. Sometimes they feel like. Okay if I'm feeling any better at all. You need to hurry and start being productive. and. I I'm trying to change my mindset of no I need to still enjoy this time especially, if this is my last baby, I need to just soak this in because I'm going to be mad at myself. That I didn't allow myself that time because it's GonNa, go away, really fast. So I loved that advice but I. think that's great advice for any mom you know. Yeah just to enjoy it at their things can wait which like I I can relate to what you're saying is like Oh wait a minute like I'm not going to go take a nap. I like get worked at answer. Emails are get on top of whatever the laundry or government is in and I think that Like. This has been a good reminder of we just get in such a Gogo frenzied mindset that were becomes really normal, really fast, and I have like as we are slowly kind of coming out of quarantine like every date. Jared and I started. Taking morning walks at the beginning of COVID. Our oldest is old enough now to stay. Home with the kids in the morning for like half an hour, so. And so. Is So. Nice, it's like like such luxury and I. Love that we start today. Just like good conversation. It's we walk, and at and is like one thing that we like no matter wet. We have to keep these walks. Because it helps us keep so much. helps US keep perspective in stay connected, and not just our little thing, but but that's one thing I. Keep Times like okay. What else do we want to keep the same? What else actually that? We thought if we stopped doing this if I didn't go into the office, you know however many days a week. That everything would fall apart I. IT actually didn't. Gain what are the things like that that we thought the world would fall apart if we didn't do it this way I think it's just a perfect time to take note of those things are. Actually! I really am more productive when I give myself a week off. Arabic, or however you know, take more personal days in than when I'm on totally on, you know and yeah. That's a great suggestion of just kind of a self evaluation. Of what do I want? To have like which things do what I like to stay the same. Yeah in this. Period of life or this season which husbands here? But. so you talked about this unintentional model, and then the intentional model, and so I'll just read this, so the circumstances my life during Cova, and the thought is everything is out of control, and the feeling is powerless, and the action is paralysis breakdown. Spin out and thoughts and actions distract myself with food shows and alcohol, and the result I lose even more control. So the opposite of that the intentional model that you shared was the circumstances, the same my life during covid. But the thought is I will not have the quality of my life dictated by external circumstances and the feeling, instead of powerless was lowered. In the action was focused on what is in my control and do it and let go of what isn't, and the result was to learn to create the life I want no matter the circumstance and I thought that was super powerful that you shared that, so talk to me a little bit more about that, and about how you. Teach people or how you've been able to adopt this idea of being more intentional well, our brains are like I Jodi. More came up with this analogy. Our brains are like scanners and they're going to go to work with whatever we ask them to go to work for, so we say I and all the evidence for. The fact that or the idea that my life is out of control for that thought it's just. GonNa go and it's GonNa Cgu. Ways you're gonNA. Find five hundred new ways. The didn't even realize before, but your life is out of control. That's so true, so our feelings always can from thought, so you have that fought. My life is out of control. Then you're going to produce a feeling whatever thought you're having is going to produce a feeling, not feeling you're gonNA take action all of our actions on from a feeling. It's always motivated by in so if your feeling is powerless. What kind of action is that? GonNa Produce Way Not your best action in our actions of course, create the results in our lives, and that's what our life is made up of from what other people you know from the external, and so from that you know realizing how much your brain is going to go to work for you and you find all the ways is is out of control like is that? That really what you WANNA. Put Your work your brain to work on, and that's why thoughts are so powerful, because not really as it's GonNa, your brain is just GonNa. Keep going on that and so when you can set it on a more intentional thought, that's actually going to serve you and create okay, and you know it's going to serve you buy. What kind of feeling do I have when I think? When I think, you know I'm not. GonNa let external circumstances dictate the quality of my life which I know is like a mouthy like a wordy sentence by a really powerful land than know if I feel empowered or confident, or you know motivated what what kind of action? They GonNa take from that so much better in your brain is going to start if you can just help at reroute to fought that, says the better. It's going to find evidence for it. I even added this like super radical. It was just so radically different than what I was thinking. We've made kids day. They were just like driving me up. The Wall and I was I kept thinking. They're driving me crazy. I was like what is as driving, and what if I, instead of thinking that? Let's see how powerful my brain is. What if I think which this is not usually how it works, but we need like bridge thoughts. Baby steps what if instead I think may kids are so easy. and. It was crazy. Like Alvin my brain. Like what are all the reasons for me? Heads just so easy. My brain really did want to go to work for that and every time. I that would come back up late. No, no, but why are they so easy? And it just shift it day I just thought it was such a cool way to feel that contrast is so so so quickly and A. Yes, I think being. Also why the downloads a really powerful because helps, you recognize. What are those recurring thoughts in my life? What are they doing for me? How are they serving me, you know. Okay I love that so much and the next time. My kids are driving me crazy, which happens frequently? I'm, GONNA use that same I'm in a tryout your trick and see if it were to cancer so easy. be saying that to myself I will let you know how that goes. Yeah, we'll have to see. But I love that so much. So I like this. All of this advice that you've been giving so good, and if people wanNA find more of it will will let them know at the end where they can find it, but I just want to ask this last question, and that is if there's one message that you wanna, leave the mom with. That's listening to this. About you know feeling empowered feeling. Calm feeling like she is still in charge of her life, no matter what the external circumstances are. What do you want the one message to be? The one that popped up I for me because it's been so helpful for me. Is. That your kids don't want a perfect song it wouldn't. It's really indeed for us to think that. We're perfect. For them and for ourselves than that, they're going to have a way better life. They're going to do everything perfectly Ben and outside the best thing that we can offer them and I think imperfection is the best thing that we could offer them. A lot of love which I. Don't know any mom that doesn't just crazy. Love their kids. I've never met one. And isn't doing the best that they can. and. And trusting that we put with our children, for reason, and all of our imperfections are going to serve them so beautiful. Because really like about perfect mom, it's really were. That would be like downhill from here for our kids. Have this impossible standard for them to judge themselves against now how to get the struggles that are for sure to come their way. Wouldn't learn how to get through struggle and the hard thing. I, just having had you know a Messier Childhood in relationship with my parents at time and divorce in in a lot of things, it's really messy and really imperfect I can look at it now and just I'm just so very fall for all that it was just so her imperfect for me. I, learned all the things I needed to be the person that I wanted to be and that I want to continually be and I. I wrote a post like this. Firts on my personal feed for Mother's Day about my mom is just like. All the things that I'm sure she judged herself so harshly. By are things that I most grateful for to see her. Get through struggle and hard things and just like. Still love and try right you just like. What more could we ever ask if anyone you know? What greater lesson could she give me that? I think that's. That's the lesson. I like to remind myself and all my imperfection with my kids at Mike. Learning so much from me. From Walmart IZAAC. Wow that is a really powerful thought and I think something that I'm GonNa be thinking about a lot and holding onto in the next little while during this season where I keep worrying. About my kids thinking you know what is wrong with her. And I had to finally tell Annabelle she came in the room the other day and said mummy. Why are you acting like you're sick every day? And because I'm just in bed a lot right now, trying to deal with this postpartum, depression and Luckily my therapist had told me like walked me through that conversation before it even happened, and I was able to tell her. You know when Mommy's hub babies, their bodies need to heal, and they're bringing. It needs to heal to, and I'm just trying to let my body heal and my brain hill. And I'm going to be. You know I'll be back to normal soon. And she just kind of said okay, and that was that, but definitely what you said ring so true to me that she has to see me struggle, and they have to see us be a little bit imperfect in human. To then someday allow themselves to also go through hard things and to overcome struggle. You know if I just mask that from my kids completely then. You know what exactly what you said like. What are they going to feel like? They need to live up to if they felt like they didn't see. Their, mom struggle at all. Yeah, and can I offer that that is not new just like hopefully making it through an experience like that in her. Hopefully like hopefully not like damaging her. That's you nailing it as a mom. There is nothing that she learned at school this year. More important at that the not there is nothing that she will probably learn in the next few years more important than for her to see you go through S. And the strength that you have that you don't see in the conversation that you're able to the have with her tonight. Be Present without pain into share about Boehner ability with her like that's like a master class that she just got you know. That's like supermom you know. Not something to judge yourself by any way except that. You're doing it just you know. Think so. Now I'm crying. And also that was those were words that my therapist helped me with not just. Those didn't come off of my like genius. Mom, top of my head so but I appreciate that. Thank you and thank you for having this conversation with me. Today I felt like it was something that I needed, but I know there's going to be so many other moms. Who listen to this who are going to feel like? They were able to find some solace and peace healing through all of this beautiful. Advice that you are able to give me today, so thank you for that. Thank you for having me. where can people find you if they want to continue to learn from you and also see the beautiful wraps, and all the creations that you guys'll have three. There are instagram in the most of sally baby so l.. L. Y. begins why my personally squirm. L. Rowley back. Post last month's imitate. Sally Davies Friday place. Awesome? Okay well. Link those in your blog. Putting all these. Beautiful many series educational series to will only all that and sean out, so thank you again. Thanks so much for listening to mint. Aero messages make sure you follow us on Instagram at Mit Arrow subscribe to our apple podcasts and rate and review. If you like us and to get show notes, go to mint aero dot com slash podcast, and you can even sign up to get shown outs. Emailed right here inbox and we'll email you every time. There's a new episode.

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425: Science Says Edition

The Scathing Atheist

1:00:00 hr | 5 months ago

425: Science Says Edition

"Wanting the following podcasts contains adult language. Sweet turn it off or stop being such a fucking baby. This week's episode of the scathing atheist is brought to you by puzzling thunderstorm canal lube guaranteed to keep your waterway running smoothly. Even if his container ship is golden class. Pat canal loop because it turns out he likes just draw see on it with a sharpie and now the scathing atheist. Hello somebody. I'm danny. I'm trevor and we're the nobody's from. Nobody's podcasting now. We're certainly not professors of science. In fact. I think we're just kinda godless heathens definitely godless idiots. But we can assure you that we did in fact it all from filthy monkey men. It's thursday april eight and why the ladies love. Jesus why's that is set up for something because he's a fictionalized bras as projection of goodness that they've been taught will forgive them for impossible standards. They could never hope to meet there. You go no allusions. I'm bosnich palm right. And from john travolta's new jersey cincinnati reds. Red blue state is the skating. This week's episode. Greg locke asks. America to take this outside retailer taylor green gets yoked to fight cova damn straight. She does and you didn't forget. We promised to read an entire david book. That damage diatribe. I'm scrolling through the washington post. The other day. I come across a story about magical healing crystals so any headline that doesn't contain the phrase. Dumb motherfuckers is gonna fall short of acceptable in my mind. But i guess it could have been worse right so it reads. Healing crystals are having a pandemic moment and right below that. There's a subtitle that says science. Says they're just pretty rocks. Now if you're going to write about magical fucking rocks. That's not terrible. The word healing is in scare quotes at least and we're all of eleven words in when the reputation stars but one element of it's still struck me as worthy of discussion. What are the words science says doing there. I mean i'm sympathetic to what the writers trying to do right. She's a wellness writer for the washington. Post so she speaking to an audience. That's more liberal more affluent and whiter than the general population. She speaking to the primary market for healing crystal purchases and. She's trying to say that shit. Don't do nothing without pissing off readers so much that they reject her commentary and or be. They stopped getting their wellness information from the washington post. And that's a noble endeavor. You know being right doesn't much you can't present your argument. In a way that people will listen to it and in a venue where they can find it. And the whole article reinforces this goal by very gently taking booking moon whisper johnson by the hand and guiding her away from the new age bookstore as she presents the arguments of pro crystal folks and tenderly rebuts them with quotes from very confused. Geologists and shit. Here's a great example. This is from a mineral sciences. Professor at penn state named peter heaney quote. It's a tricky question because the answer is yes. With respect to einstein's mass energy equivalence or with respect to thermodynamic conceptions of free energy in crystals crystal healing posits that there's an energy transfer between crystals and people in there is simply no scientific foundation for those assertions quote but best intentions aside. Okay the inclusion of the science says clause in the title still sticks in my craw at because it subtly reinforces this ridiculous idea that people accept scientific on the authority of science. You know like. I mean as though were conforming to the conclusions of some scientific body your panel of experts rather than the observable universe. Sure science says that crystals can't heal you or protect you from disease but so does everybody else who wasn't fucking wrong. Science didn't speak that knowledge into existence says observed say it's noted it say it's confirmed it and when we say stuff like but science says acts we ever so slightly endorsed the idea that some other motherfucker gets a say in shit when science says the options to agree with expert of fucking why i mean all the wu. Merchants are fun to say in that. Science isn't the only way of knowing about the world and that's true so much as you count the wrong ones too. You know about the world you've got through the application of science. It may not be because you listened to a science teacher or read a science book. You may have just applied the scientific method on your own introduced. I dunno it fucking hurts when you touch that burner. That's also science. All deduction is either scientific or flawed. I mean it can accidentally be correct to postulate that there are stove demons that get angry when you deign to cook food with their roof and curse you with pain. But i think we'd all agree that it would be careless to toss out a headline that says something you can appease the stove demons but science says temperature exists see. The problem is at the same time that you're given moon whisper a benevolent little. Push your also arming. Her with the means to ignore it. Science says ex as an invitation to remind us that science doesn't know everything. And i fucking hate this one because yeah science may not know everything but it knows more than your dumb ass moon whisper. There ain't nothing your bucket. Rakia healing tarot reading crystal gazing hippie nosed. Science hasn't quite puzzled out yet. Same goes where your preach appreciate your rabbi in a mom and well route at your favorite science communicator. Your favorite college professor in the most knowledgeable. God damn human in the history of fucking planet. A sci shouldn't be invoked as an authority it should be the metric by which authority as measured right like but that's not the world we live. We live in a world where science says means at least to most people that a bunch of people in white lab coats consulted their oracle of beakers and declared it so and until such time that we can eradicate that misunderstanding. Anybody tempted to write science. Says might want to consider using science as many applicable synonyms. Like in this example. Reality talking special news. Join me for headlines tonight or the indian meaning a miny moe heath and right knee lie about. Are you ready to catch a tiger. Maybe i mean if i holler will whoever it is. That's doing this not throw a last time. Let it go after setting up. why okay. Well he's stews for a minute. We're gonna pause quirk from this week's i sponsor omega brain natural concentration supplements raza fresno angry mumble. Apa like what was the matter dude. Oh hey no. Hey he sorry. I'm just trying to study but it's so hard. Oh well why. Don't you try omega brain natural concentration supplements what are omega brain. Natural concentration supplements their complete and total bullshit complete and total bullshit. That's right and a bullshit stew with piss on your leg and tell you it's raining on top. Wow that does sound good. It's not these untested woo. Bullshit dose and nothing are unregulated and guaranteed to cost you money that could be spent on literally anything real anything. Real anything real. That's right anything improve focus. Clear mind flinders news. Doing more with gray pills filled with who the fuck knows to make you your best self ever. What does that mean. Who the fuck knows omega brain natural concentration supplements because if we had pills that would make you smarter. You would definitely find out about them on a podcast advertisement leaner. That's news new and now back to the headlines in our lead story tonight. Our podcast was correct. Secular people are better than religious people. Not like me personally. Probably not good overall excluded. Obviously that's just an average thing. Hey republican atheists thanks for listening. Lord's work over there fucking the curve here and defined terms. This all depends on what metrics you use for. We're going to go with science. Health education political philosophy safety and general well-being as a society. So better. i meant better. We're better and that admittedly arbitrary set of criteria. We are better it being people in a society of people. That's what i meant. Yeah and keep in mind. This is saying a lot. Considering that i make up. Some percentage of the atheists that he knows and he's seen me order at a restaurant so this he means it ever right now. I guess the rope point here is thank you listeners. For not letting us skew the average by all that much good work everybody so this shocking revelation about who's better follows up on the story from last week about the decline in regular church attendance. Thanks to a recent gallup poll. We learned that. Only forty seven percent of americans identify as members of church right now. And that's the first time ever that we went below fifty percent. This was obviously good news about a promising trend. But just in case anyone wasn't clear about why exactly this is good news. We got a solid answer from sociology. Professor phil zuckerman. The main focus of his academic career is studying the effect of secularization on a society. And the main answer of his academic career is so much better as body of work right there according to the the real zach. We're gonna call him right. Secular people are way more likely to understand and respect the scientific method. That's one of his big points. Were better at things are true and the process surrounding that whole reality thing and quick little example of how that might apply in practice. I just do a little thought experiment with me. Try to imagine if there was ever like a really bad global pandemic do that or or imagine if there was ever a trans person. Stick at the end of that sentence. -sego actually so the real zok also found that secular people are way more likely to support well pretty much every single important political. Cost them just about that. Includes support for sex education and therefore less unwanted pregnancy and less sexually transmitted disease so we're pro-life and religion is pro herpes. Yeah that's good to know to fund bumper sticker. We're also better on healthcare. Gay rights environment gun laws drug policy and the general concept of dignity. Not yeah and it's worth pointing that remembering it because like yes. There atheist authors who tweet transphobic garbage and the republican atheists have a second member now putting grants guys in a room full of atheists your mathematically guaranteed to be talking to more liberal people. Right right and know. The republican convention doesn't count because he said a room full doesn't care that's not a room not a room and just circling back to dignity just for the record. Dignity doesn't have a perfect antonin but some near antonyms include debasement Where trump locked himself inferior. Can degradation would be another one. Oh and republican would be another one thirty opened another near anthem of dignity but despite all this very clear evidence of who's better. Us congress is still about ninety. Six percent religious. And that's fucking insane. Yeah ooh yeah put it sure. Explains the everything sure does sure the fuck does slight. There's a confederacy of some course. So yeah congrats tall. The religious people who agree with us on political morality. I guess but they got lucky. Statistically they got very lucky and they should stop helping religion. Bring up its gp. Until i hear about a new bible or new koran getting a doctorate in big numbers by all these progressive churches they can mostly shut the fuck up and help quietly with the stuff that they got lucky on. They stole are things right. We didn't take any of their things and in dr. He blows news gentlemen. Quick game i'm going to give you the name of this story subject and you are gonna guess why they're on our podcast Are you ready. Okay let's do it. George e langdon the fort. Oh win snowboarding. On a painting of his great grandfather Shut down a teen center with donald trump junior. I man to eat his own. Lower jaw said that an eyelid. Gay people with die out because gay people don't reproduce bury your though to be fair to heath. He could also have done those other. Yeah right who's the first man to eat is lower drug. Exactly yeah so the albany. County legislator was giving a speech at a seminar called return to liberty under the constitution at christian camp pinnacle when in the middle of what can only be described as spoken compilation of everyone. Who's ever lost a twitter fight. He said everything. God does a sustainable. It's sustainable it. Goes on and on and on. It's perpetual what sorry when you have homosexual relationships it's not perpetual what's give them an island they'll be gone after forty years okay. Because they can't. God created us to be this way. There's so much common sense that needs to be applied to our policies. Each prec- okay. The things that we do in our government and quote i thought he was going to break down there and be like we commonsense catching himself now. Yeah so unfortunately. For george e langton. The fourth people heard the words. He said out loud in front of a camera and have called for his resignation. Which means we get one of my favorite traditions here on the scathing atheists the. I'm not the thing. I very clearly just words that i am apology speech. Which in the case of georgie boy went like this quote. I sincerely apologized to the lgbtq community and all others for the hurtful remarks recently made it a conference. I have never been homophobic. What nor do i think any individuals should be placed on an island off specifically definitely made it where you get how. That's worse mad about home or the island. He's a. I deeply regret my foolish off the cuff comment. He's in the middle of a speech when he says that has caused so much pain. I commit to doing a better job of respecting diversity. Eight almost half to. I hope my years of past public service demonstrate genuine concern for all individuals. I will be taking time to reflect on how to best serve moving forward and quote. She dude you you were volunteering at a christian camp. So no you're not. You're you're fucking name. Is george langdon. The fourth probably got your fresh from colonizing south pacific islander something yeah so unfortunately george never did figure out what proper metaphorical container he was allowed to put gay and so yeah thought he was going to take some time to reflect never cracked it. He didn't crag it and so he has since resigned. Which is i want to say too bad. Feel like he had what it took to make it as a regular on our show. But you know what. George better luck next time. Better luck next time. And in skoda's it damn near killed us news tonight if you trust shit like math. The supreme court has closer to theocracy today than it has ever been before. I'd like to stop trusting math too. I have a religion for you know we learned that. Well they as we learned that burwell fbi hobby lobby back in two thousand fourteen confirmed that more. So the thanks to a new paper in the supreme court review legal scholars lee epstein and eric a posner ran a statistical analysis supreme court cases involving religious liberty and found that quote. The roberts court has ruled in of religious organizations far more frequently than his predecessors over one percent of the time compared with about fifty percent off previous years since nineteen fifty three and quote. Yeah and it's only that low for most of the roberts court because he had about four and a half justices who tell you to go fuck yourself you said there were in the roberts right wise that low during his time and the hackles on their robe would pick up in start snapping. Doing jetson sharks stuff. I'd be like there's a nice fun rivalry for awhile. Never great sign when you're being compared unfavourably to the court that kinda sorta got around to black people are all the way people write heyday of ethics of your thing. Can't be than eighty and nine now but look as bad as it sounds when you look at those numbers. It's actually way fucking worse right. Because due to the scottish this theocratic bet. They're actually hearing far more of these types of cases what i call religious exemption cases than previous court. What's more unlike those historically iterations. Their rulings are far more likely to benefit mainstream christianity. Really in the past religious freedom cases tended to focus on minority religions. Because you know they were mostly about equality back then instead of fucking bonus rights. Yeah okay just circling back. Fuck anthony kennedy. It wasn't a year from what i said earlier. I called him like half of a good guy. But that was a very epitaph. I gave him half good guy. Yeah no barium halfway can we start. Listing anthony kennedy on serial killer. Lists right you. Ted bundy anthony kennedy. His numbers are up there. I'm very ranks. But yeah you should be way higher than ted bundy and you really did out the checks on those links. Yeah but okay but somehow all this shit gets worse okay. The same analysis broke down which individual justices are more likely to rule on the side of religious institutions and religious exemptions and of the top five all five of them are currently on the court cool. Yeah brett kavanagh's. Currently the worst followed by thomas roberts alito and gorsuch antonin. Scalia is in sixth. This he's all of. These guys are worse than fucking scalia and you may have noticed that the biggest zealot on the court was missing from that list. But that's only because amy coney. Parrot hasn't ruled on enough cases for a meaningful comparison yet. Yeah but she's hungry. Noah young michael jordan right by which i mean. Nobody likes her and only starring in a movie with bugs. Bunny will change that. Nobody liked michael jordan until pace. Yeah no no. The twenty-seven sponsorships that he had probably coincidence. What not sure literally to be like mike sites. There's a lot of people out there who really did not care for mr twenty seventeen of them a new one. You really needed that sponsorship traction as michael jordan but honestly i think the most disturbing aspect of this story is just how much more partisan these issues are today. Okay so the analysis focused on the last seventy years and noted that for most of that time you couldn't tell if somebody was nominated by republican or democrat just by looking at how they ruled unreligious cases back in the seventies and even the eighties. There was no statistically significant difference between democratic and republican judicial nominees in the federal judiciary. At least not on this is just that is no longer remotely the case and it's no fucking accident. Rate like christianity has been after our course for decades and this study confirms they have them you'll yeah but acceleration ism now sharon next headlines in march of the beasts. Yeah we have a story marjorie taylor. Also cytotoxic t cells karl marx joe biden and satan the prince of darkness. So you're probably thinking what house karl marx class. We will get there. But here's the basic background reasonable. People are getting vaccinated and stupid. People are not so businesses like airlines. Restaurants are talking about a vaccine passport system. That would let people prove they're not giant health hazard before entering an enclosed space with a bunch of people. And that's why marjorie taylor. Green is panicking. Her fellow stupid people might get banned from stuff and yup might get banned from stuff. Yeah neither ban them from stuff. Yeah it's crazy. The party that wants honduran. Five year olds escaping genocide to fill out a form and wait six years for a visa. Just got awfully about personal. Yeah weird weird. Yeah look and i'm not a big tattoo guy. But if the rest of america agrees to get their vaccine passport tax on their foreheads to the back of their hands i just to fuck with maytag and her elk. I meant i will do. I'll work patriot goal so we heard about magic. Take on this when she made a row anti video from way too close to the camera. Dignified member of congress does when they want to express their measured opinion about something. And here's what she had to say quote they want you to have a co vid passport. This would mandate your ability to be able to. I'm gonna stop right there for saying this would command your ability of ability and real promising open. Just so everybody knows. This is going to mandate your meadow ability. This would mandate -bility to be able to travel your ability to she. Kept doing it your ability to be able to attend events and your ability to be able to buy and sell. That was the end of the sentence. Where i guess. She's talking about people with like pop up stores inside the airplane. Continuing quote is this. Something like biden's mark of the beast because that's really disturbing and not good or communism. Whatever you want to what. I call it neither nor am i gonna clock. I always think vaccine passport and finishing the quote but it's coming from private companies. So i have a term for that i call it corporate communism quote tall shrimp sw. I need a filter. That just replaces the words. Communism and socialism was bugatti and republican mutations. Right birdies she's just describing. Ah passport yeah. She's against passports guys. I think magic the gathering might be for open. Border open borders canada. That out there. Okay so first of all. We absolutely should have vaki add. Yeah of course personally. I want the terminator glasses. That check for. The bill gates chip. And you can't get inside my ten foot force field without it. Yes absolutely missiles but definitely a passport for places like airlines big events and small events and areas with link with depth and time also. We already have vaccine passports. Not all the way organized electrically at. You can't send your kid to public school without vaccinations. Unless of course you have bullshit religious exemption that marjorie taylor green and her pestilence clan will definitely end up getting setting that aside we also have. I dunno driving passports. Yeah sample and passports pulling one doesn't new inside. This isn't numb there and look all the communist corporations. She's worried about it as soon as they get done. Seizing the means of production. From those aren't going to have to decide whether to enact the kind of policies that are going to bring cautious educated. People enter their venues in airplanes and whatnot or the policies that bring in the kind of frothing at the mouth idiots that blame wildfires jewish space lasers could choose wisely guy and one last thing about marjorie taylor green and this is very very important so import. She made a video of herself exercising. Like a goddamn lunatic last week. No okay exercises great. That's great for the obnoxious exercise. People good job healthy. And i'm sure the cleaning press weightlifting move is a very important civic virtue for voters of georgia four but after the weightlifting she started doing what it appeared to be whole ups plus electric shock torture from an invisible attack. Now i know nothing about workouts definitely not any kind of pull up thing but there's no way that's a good health and i check and not surprisingly it's a crawfish thing called a butterfly pull up like Like the ones butterflies according to mt g. That workout was her vaccine Well she she's immune to butterfly aids now but now. I want to be part of all the irritating colts right like next week. She has to make a video about the miraculous benefits. Kito and then go through. Scientology auditing okay. But bottom line marjorie taylor. Green still has a fucking job as a us congress person if she worked at tgi fridays for the last three months instead of congress she already been fired for yelling a slur at a secret shopper. Not guaranteed i need congress to have a higher bar. Tgi right you're not allowed to pose in front of a poster of your manager at tgi. Fridays with a cross hair on their face. You can't do that probably not i would imagine no. And in sandy no facts news with all the reporting we do on this show about rape and big dream creeping theocracy. It's easy to forget that religion ruins everything it touches food movies and of course sports and we got a great example of that last one this week in a new york times profile on an up and coming high school baseball star alike wingman who told reporter david walstein that he can't wait to throw a major league contract and the garbage because friday's belong to guy all right. Well good luck pretty soon. Eli belongs to tgi fridays. They'd make us as work weekends to true. We actually dealt with data. Tgi fridays the work. That was ridiculous really yeah. They were granted fry. I mean they made less money because of it. Because fridays and saturdays good money days generally but so stupid. Yeah so for those of you. Who aren't familiar. Klayman is a schommer shabat which means he doesn't work or play baseball on the jewish sabbath. Which is from friday at sundown to saturday at sundown. Where you ask go fuck yourself and baseball happens on friday and saturday. During the sun having times cleveland's chances of going pro about the same as his chances of god being real and beautiful tradition from moses to sandy. Koufax got tim ray living in the fucking past scheduling major league. Baseball real now as disappointing as it is to see a young person throw their future away for an invisible sky wizard. The new york times actually pointed out that klayman could still play baseball. If he's willing to be a catcher. I guess catchers get days off sweet gig and he could set his days off for fridays and saturdays. But that assumes that team would want to arrange their entire roster cling men's invisible friend and. It doesn't seem super like yeah it's not like scheduling a windows update that and look and this is where the parents should be able to teach kids. Whatever they want about. Religion argument breaks the fuck down right because they're not also required to let them know it was all bullshit on their eighteenth birthday or anything exactly one less block. That will stand in my child's way of being a pro close on. I mean he still has half my jeans but hey at least you can play on any of the any day of the week. He fucking watts right and finally tonight. In lockdown news re- diabetic evangelical caffeine buzz and sapient superspreader event. Greg locke reminded everybody during his easter service. This past weekend that when it comes to ruining our global pandemic he's winning. This sermon included a bragging monologue. About how few precautions. His churches taken over the past year so calisi might as well have been stamping flat. Lining respirator. patience on the side of a biplane as he in a lengthy schwartz into gary in fantasy. About how many atheist special ops ninjas he'd fight for jesus interest and of course he openly mocked the few people in his overcrowded church. Who bothered aware of fucking mask. Okay i just wanna say naming a specific number of ninjas was a mistake by greg lock warning. Obviously we have enough trans listeners. That if we did a live show in greg's hometown we could absolutely get him to the midst himself and his family. I just by standing outside saying people so okay so he opens up talking about jesus and shit. He's supposed to easter afro. But before long the bunny takes a backseat while rails against mask mandates and and the way that some assholes wanna trust scientists more than the bible but not him as he's quick to point out he's literally taking zero precautions at any point during the in person services that he is held throughout the pandemic and then we reached the michael bay portion of the sermon quote. Bunk law enforcement will row up and tanks. They will drop down from helicopters. It's gonna take the entire united states military to roll up in this parking lot and tell us hey. We can't worship jesus and that we got to shut down our church and that we can't preach and that we can't pray and that we can't it a shit to say that point said we can't think in there was more but they just kind of trails off and then he adds quote. You have lost your mind if you think i've given into that. We are staying open forever. And then he clarifies forever and quote till men. Only jesus knew about risk control as much as greg lying. I'm sorry he mr last joke. I was saving the audio file of greg. Lock saying he's staying. Open forever forever. So i can play it on a loop outside. His church wended inevitably shuts down because he's a smuggler of child. Prostitute tax fraud faked bible secretly gay sexual harassment. Whatever it is if we've learned anything in doing this show. But yeah when the atheists repel outta helicopters to try to take his jesus meal but then immediately after that rent immediately after the q. perhaps upon realizing that may yet be some time before he can say this bloodlust on well-armed godless militants. He decided to kill some of the people he had on hand. His very next words were quote. And unless you're under a doctor's orders and a few of your take them stupid masks off when you come into this church there. I said it on easter. Take them stupid masks off and quote. I have it on good authority that if you die three days later you'll be back. So yeah yeah. Greg lock cares more about his power fantasy than he does about the lives of his congregants and that is not by editorial summary of the situation by the way. That's literally the thrust of his easter sermon. Yeah so if we have any listeners. In mount juliet or the greater nashville area the formula. Here's pretty simple okay. Dunkin donuts cup full of sugar with a dash coffee for color your box. Stick string postage right. You already wanted to do it. And now you know you'd be saving lives or just wait for our live show in nashville and you can watch our trans army do. It's the miss thing. Saying auction seem options. All right well. Apparently at i have to have the know publicly telegraphing the future movements of the trans army conversation against going. To close the headlines here heath ally. Thanks as always greg. Lock and load when we come back. I'll spend yet more of my adult life voluntarily tacking. The question of whether water can remember shit and now all we need is the top. Yeah hey no you might grabbing that for us. Oh you mean from down there. From i ten there. Yeah yeah right on the bottom shelf. Oh now what you. You won't grab the top from the bottom shelf for us. Nope no i will not because I hate you guys because you hate us okay. Are you sure you're back isn't just bothering you again. And you know my back is great. I'm young. It's better than great. Actually noah if your back is bothering you why don't you try. Medically dubious claims about cbd products. What are medically dubious claims about. Cbd products is a fake product. Doesn't come for the score. Medically dubious claims about cbd products are the best way to help with back pain sleep and maybe some other stuff. It has not been tested so we don't know we don't that's right no. We don't the complex layers of checking and double checking whether or not. Cb helps with stuff hasn't been done yet so maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. That's not gonna stop us from selling it to you. It won't know whether it's pills powder oiler gumy's medically dubious. Cbd is there to help with your pain stress anxiety or absolutely nothing. We don't know and it's very very dangerous for us to pretend to know the answer. We're podcasters thanks guys. I'm in medically dubious. Cbd claims because medicine is complicated in. Gummy bears are not alone. It's time for us to once again. Revisit david ice book everything you need to know. But i've never been toll. Which means that i find myself facing my greatest challenge to date summarizing. What the hell. David was talking about last time. So reality doesn't exist on kind of all that empty space in the atoms. Other dimensions can intrude on our frequency. Which again doesn't exist. Not our amplitude though no just our frequency and if you think quantum leap enough the rocks will tell you their turn ons and turn offs. Did i miss anything. You are amplitude all right. Now we're going to venture back into this asylum. We're going to pick up midway to chapter one because fucked if we could make it to full chatter at a time and we're going to rejoin the conversation with him explaining that only the parts of reality you're looking at exists at any given time as racing in other words. I can't go crazy when you're located. Somebody keeps looking. i'm trying to make a new dimension. Appears he's definitely yelled that before yup only so for this example of how reality doesn't really exist and we're making it with our minds. He uses fire walking as an example right because either he doesn't know it's a trick or he doesn't know that you do the Quantum tony robbins argument. I did not see that surprised me right and no and to be clear it. We're still in chapter one. And he is already telling his readers. They are immune to fire. Because of george barkley the fire walkers can't do eyeball stuff style. Maybe they're not reading barkley. That's right everyone. I broke a board with my foot at age. Four to get my yellow belt because of how quantum leap tuned right. That's right my guy. At one point he says i saw an article in the epoch. Tie if i may quote this scientific journal i found in the checkout line at the grew. Yeah and also by the way we learn here that apparently all stage hypnotists have the power to disprove physics and the willpower not to this gay. A physics is real than wire handkerchiefs. Infants yes yes. Stage hypnotists have such incredible willpower. That most of them choose to make their living doing the late late show at the chuckle hut and not speak to their string yet auto and i wanted throw one more point here. I cannot stress. How many of his figures were figure forty eight now for the record. Our stock footage. That i am guessing. He didn't buy with swirlies in via the phone. That's it there's visual aids for so much stuff but none of it if not that. We don't need a visual aid. It's no sense was ever made picture. Now still nothing. Yeah exactly exactly. We did need some clarification. Assisted need these pictures. It's not that So okay he also teaches us at this point that the world is actually holograms which to be clear to those who hearst. This shit from their minds over the last month is just a rephrasing of the same. God point that he's just been making over and over and over again same wrong point yes usually when i have to hear this much wrong this quickly someone at least pass the ball to me by exactly exactly either. You're smoking one or supposed to put money in one. Yeah this is the best pictures ever get at this point because he has like nine different pictures. That are just like you motherfucker. Right there's a hologram. It's not real quote. Holographic graphics is mimicking the very holographic reality that we experience lies folks. I have made it through two hundred and ninety plus christian movies. And i almost quit this section of our fucking also. I'm pretty sure one of those nine. Visual aids is exactly the character. Select screen for dance dance revolution. He's he's using that. To debunk physical reality and then another one. Is those ads on porn hub. That electra. now right right well. He's but then he's like well. If what i'm telling you is it real. Then how does acupuncture and reflexologist even were. Oh it doesn't can we stop reading votes. Two votes jesus. Also i'm sorry still first chapter here. Do we come across his third matrix. Comparison yes apply to the same thing in the same way. Yup also spoiler. I did a control f. And he uses the word matrix ninety tashi euro time on number three also by the way. I checked a few other words because i got curious. He says quantum one hundred four times her number twenty nine. but that's not the real focus of his work as we all know he says the word jewish one hundred fifty two times lao and we're not even a number one yet can also include and jews. It's two hundred seven. If you add zionist three hundred ninety ed israel seven hundred. Seventy seven gs et. If you add soros eight hundred sixty years. Why cry that is one. And a quarter jay bombs per page for six hundred eighty nine. Oh and for those of you who are wondering. According to casual search of the internet that does beat the koran for jew mench champion my friends we supplies on the brackets. Do a word cluster on this guy and just like jews slur words. You god yup. Oh okay so so. Now he does. The time is relative there for it doesn't exist speech and i'm like no when you define a property you can't use that to prove it doesn't exist when he tried to distract us from that by yelling now in all caps. This is the point. Where he's making the point that only now exists and and he does it by saying what time is it now. Is it right now now. How about now dan. no it's now again. I can do this all day. It'll stop doling though. It literally puts day in quotes at the beginning of the vote. Like he's being ironic like look at me existing in this day of the mortal danger. I'm having a really good day. It's a really hard day in in the space time like a fucking new the quotes arounds words in this book you could insert quotes around words randomly in this tax and it would make more sense than how he uses them. Yes this is. Where david i learned about the dvd and his mind was blown. Yeah an entire page being fucking fascinated by a disc full. Now's a two hour. Movie is like one hundred twenty each of which has like sixty dollars each of which has fucking now if he ever does another interview with anyone just show him a fucking flip book and he'll be like warlock. Juke tom. lord. Doctor dr jew. We'll any keeps saying like scientific. Experiments are increasingly showing. And then they'll he's some turn baking league crazy thing and not cite any experience right now. He just said in the book that scientific experiments are increasingly showing that you can manipulate the past by doing shit. Now no the fuck they are. Okay but how would they show that increasing right. Try to manipulate the not now to slow drive. Not now now. You're stupid more on time. Being relative here. He explains that athletes could slow down time with their minds. Not just athletes. Great footballers again in his mind is him. This would be like me writing in my book. They see a great podcast. there has a prehensile penis. Oh any case. You're not getting that quite if you're gonna understanding figure sixty one is neo dodging bullets okay. I'm calling it. The witkowski sisters can sue this book on baking. Officially all nine dollars could be there and then we get this bizarre. Little aside subtitled the scaler connection. And let me just say that. Either mean google or david. Eick are wildly confused. About what the fuck scaler know if it makes you feel better. I didn't rely on either. Google or david eick so i'm going with covered in scale all okay. Exact words from the section. The term scaler is highly controversial among scientists. And just record scaler means number would like the simple kind now with any vector to at just number. It's the least controversial there can be in the aprio re concept of not david ike is using it to mean again quote a field from which the realms of wave form and holographic reality ultimately manifest which david's credit is a highly controversial way to think of three. You not a scientist though. It's not controversial them. Okay well but now it's time to shit on all of modern medicine or well. I guess he's already done that here. And there but now it's time to dedicate a whole subheading to it. Yeah v. Meam he leads this section off with. Yes you heard. That correctly is a picture of a doctor. That says trust me. I'm a doctor. The system says so which implies that you wanna dr the system does. Yeah you want rogue doctor what well clearly you do away because doctors are one of the greatest killers ever know. No joke though. That's the argument here. Yep he's like so who's always dying sick people and they always talking to right before they die. Doctors and that is genocide agitating the argument. And if you're wondering what doctors are getting wrong quote. Mainstream medicine doesn't accept that the body is a wave form information construct and sees only the illusory physical form in perceptual. Prison of the five cents. Oh my fucking yes so yeah you can mood yourself to health. Take that all eu cancer downers. It's all your fault okay. Maybe instead of chemotherapy we could just get rid of all that empty space. In our atoms fit the entire human race in a sugar cube and thought op who had stopped hurting and courage today. Think it's kinda like nice and friendly that all the worcester's sell each other's bullshit right. You don't see that with their cons. The nigerian prince never says like oh. Ps try out some three card. Monte later you'll win it's neighborliness thrive recently and it's all right. And then he then he attacks the codex element theory is. which is. It's a collection of food standards right. He says it was created by nazis. Jailed for warcrimes. It was created in one thousand nine hundred sixty one and it was based on something created in eighteen. Ninety one both high points. I guess for nazi war crimes. Okay just to be clear. That's just a handbook. That says don't make poisoned food. Yep please if time traveling. Nazis invented that idea in eighteen ninety one. I got one. But this doesn't explain why the eye of horace is at the top of the food pyramid wondering so he also puts out the old mad isn't allowed to make claims about healing and big pharma is just as big. Pharma can prove them to agree according to him. They're not allowed to quote scientific studies because of the not bullshit copyright. Yeah no idea but do all. The treatments are subjected to the same testing regimen. Can dumb ass. This is the argument. We get in favor of wave form field medicine. That's what he's talking about is like yeah. Small pharma is exact. Mall waves or something. This is the argument. We get way form guy. This wave form field. Medicine might be good for you potential patient. Why wave form guy. I can't tell you. Because whatever i say is probably illegal. That's in the book. Always a good sign. Yeah so just to be clear already in chapter one. The conspiracy is so big that virtually all the dietitians doctors and medical researchers are in on it. Yeah and here's the thing. Big pharma has done fucked up stuff. They created a crisis of dependency and drug abuse in this country. And we can't talk about any of that stuff. Without sounding a little bit. Like david ike harder to stop actual big pharma because of him and idiots like him and then he comes to the defensive homeopaths. And i'm like jesus does this book and with david sword fighting martial a mountaintop at sunrise. Or something really. I mean it can no player tickets. We can get things we can make this happen. Yeah no right right. Nobody puts out that we dismiss homeopathy. Just because we can't explain it right a says quote if we can't explain it it can't be happening but it's also not happen like we can check and see if it's happening and it also isn't so okay noah but if we check it. The homeopathy wave collapsed. Or if someone's going to piss on you and tell you it's raining and then you look at his penis and he gets stage fright. That's your fault there's no rain. The crops grow and your dick. Oh okay heath. If water doesn't have memory than how did german scientists photograph the dumbest section. If it's possible. And i love. I can't help but notice there's no figure x. Correlated with that play couldn't get the rights to use that water droplet photo three the rights to to use the same. What droplet for the chapter. I don't know. I liked water droplets before it sold out two big stock photo but brian is okay until yeah but they talk about the water droplets water. Droplets look different. If you say happy worse to him than sad words. And i'm like okay. I will give all of these scientists. You're pretending to quote your eight million dollars apiece. If they group the water by who named the droplets after the fact he says the dipped a flower in a tank of water and quote. The energetic information of the flower was in all the droplets. This was a tank of water. That had soared bull dropping. Who is it a controlled half on the drop inevitably. This works just way ready to the japanese. Happy water photos has seen on. What the bleep do we okay. So i had a little bit of a rabbit hole moment here. I found a research paper by dean rawdon from the institute of no attic sciences. Along with massaro emoto the guy in the movie with the original happy water thing. Yeah and they tried to recreate the results of that. They found that water exposed to positive intentions created crystals that were rated a bit more quote beautiful on average compared to non targeted water. That was nearby. What and this. This is according to a large panel of water crystal beauty judges averages on all of whom had extensive experience in crystal beauty pageants. I'm sure i am but they also found that the distant control water that was far away from from the happy targeting room was rated slightly more beautiful than the happy water. They're super fucking mad about having to stop. But the best part the end of the paper. They pointed out that the investigators could have been accidentally shooting intention at the water and fucking up result. That was the concession statement pieces that they couldn't control for accidental intention. Okay everyone. I called this meeting because we need you to be hoping for exactly normal results on these ones. Dave i swear to god if you are hoping medium really and then. He explains how tarot work. Oh if i may Quote we are way form field and tarot cards are way for field images and symbolism of each tarot card or ruined stone dictates its frequency slash vibration state and this is a visual version of intent. That comes from the cards or stones represent and quote hundreds of pages ninety. Which but i love how often he has to say now. This thing works. This modality works but most people who do it. Fuck it up or are pushing for confronts. And i'm like we are now we don't have to say that about medicine or physics are 'aeronautics or any of our stuff right. Trust us. rockets are real is just ninety. Nine percent of them explode the moment. Stardom and i love the sport here. He's in the middle of talking about tarot cards and remembers these still mad at sally davies. The the uk chief medical officer. Who said homeopathy is stupid sutin. He ends with tarot is complicated. It's a wave form dame. Sally dame sally fuck you wave form your stupid. I really wanted this to continue through the whole book. He's just angrily referencing her like an act as well. We don't know yet that it doesn't vary all right so then he explains that. Our bodies are our prisons. And i'm like some more than others davies. Another and apparently part of the problem is our obsession with visible light. Uh-huh oh that's helpful. Yeah that's useful to me. She says he goes full. Atheism is a religion of believing improvable. Stuff here yeah. But they all think suffers solid to describe exactly and then he takes his grandstand against reason. And it's nice to know that he knows who is enemy in this fight as he's like we'll see you. Reason really makes a dictionary loop out of it. And i'm like newton girthing already is meaningless and stupid before i go fucking around with dictionaries. Okay and his dictionary loop. It's just the fact that reason. Logic and rationality are all similar. Words mentioned in the definitions of each other. Yeah so turns out squares and rectangles also a hoax. This i mean he. He spent the first ten pages of this chapter railing against solidity. I wouldn't be so sure he's not gonna come for chapter. Two euclid was foolish shape. Yeah so but who is imprisoning us in our bodies. Oh i guess we'll have to wait to chapter to find that out man right right. Wait a tease it. All right so to close things up. I have a quick question if you had to summarize this chapter in one sentence would you be a fifteen year old getting stoned for the first time it would that sentence. Start with whoa man. I never thought i'd say this. But you're way too harsh on stone fifteen year old. Well you thought you were pretty sure you'd have to say yes and on that note we're going to earn another month parole from this ship. It would back next month with even more david icon mes installment of god awful books before we move into your memory registers and slowly start to fade out. I want to congratulate. Our friends thomson from the cognitive dissonance. Podcast for ten years of podcast re this week. Those are two the guys that inspired us to do this in two guys. That still inspire us today. Congratulations guys nobody has ever looked better. After ten years in glory hole anyway. That's all the blessing we've got four hundred and in ten thousand twenty two minutes with more if you can't wait that long. Dan look brand new episode of sister. Show the skeptical seventy mr time on monday and even more percent of our sisters hot friend got off mood. Been seventy mr on tuesday and then even do sister. She'll citation needed. They being at noon eastern on wednesday. Obviously this show would be missing. It's enough. I neglected he then right. Listen delusions for over. Three thousand days of podcast has up this past monday. We got a pretty good anniversary to also need to think. Eli bosnich for forty four days less than that but still a lot. Also wanna think danny and trevor from the. 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UK Column News Podcast 1st September 2021

UK Column Podcasts

1:27:14 hr | 2 weeks ago

UK Column News Podcast 1st September 2021

"Good afternoon it's wednesday. The first of september twenty twenty one just after one o'clock welcome to uk. Call them news today. Like roman civil myself. Brian garish. And we're delighted to be joined by. Alex thomson Well where back all the time. School is restarted. School is response started. So we'll reports on the madhouse that sir you caddy well. Yes and of course What happened while we been away. Afghanistan seems to be the only thing that's been going on a fascinating but he joe change of topic for the nation. Yeah so joe. Biden is defending. The extraordinary success of the afghanistan evacuation amid criticism. Will most of the criticism seems to be coming from the uk government. And hopefully alex something to say about that in a second but Well the question is how much of it was to do with joe biden and probably not very much because Us over while we were away he well. The express here said appeared to fall asleep during a meeting with the israeli minister. Mr bennett and well ha'aretz. I did notice. We're saying that this was untrue that he had maxi phone sleepy just looked like he was falling asleep or the looked like he was sleep. So the question. Is you know how much of this was. Spiders decision will come onto that in the second in the meantime thought Tony blair's Response to this was was probably the best of any that i saw He said today account remember when he actually said this was during the break. Anyway today. we're in a mood. That seems to regard the bringing of democracy as a utopian delusion an intervention. virtually of any sort as a fool's errand that we didn't need to do that's we didn't need to leave afghanistan. We chose to we did an obedience to imbecilic political slogan about ending the forever wars as if our engagement ended twenty. Twenty watt was reportedly combustible commitments twenty or even ten years ago and circumstances in which truth numbers declined to minimum and no allied soldier had lost their life and combat for eighteen months. So alex maybe i could say welcome to the program. The response from many of the british establishment figures have tony blair could be described as up. has been quite marked But as we'll see in a second it shouldn't have come as a surprise to anybody because the negotiations with the taliban be going on for a very long time said halfway through the trump presidency So why is anybody surprised about this all seems a bit fishy it a bit contrived this got to be some attempt to distract from something might Because as long ago as ten years Wrong poll and he was just the most vocal of many in the us political scene but there was some in britain to will saying if we do not pull out two thousand eleven we will still be there in ten years very foreseeable. The bitter cynicism of tony blair's tone as you just started. That unafraid is how to interpret any other way than that. Britain by being in the big lead by being in the big boys club takes it opponent self that some of its troops will just have to be sent out as well policemen on a kind of room basis permanent rotational basis of battalion. And this is of course is completely unlawful because troops off of the defensive realm and have to be agreed every parliamentary period in until the very recent past every year in a new active adamant. So that we don't get tyrannized. One of the provisions of the bill of rights was that this would come in to effect so that we didn't have a standing on the colonel over two courses. That black is more at home. In the internationalist globalist and the eu model over the ownership of troops which is they are owned effectively by corporations and international bodies and they can be pledged permanently together with warships and air assets and space assets and cyber acids and intelligence assets in a way. That's not local in the british constitution is only britain within the european media. Seen as i can see which is spinning this line to its domestic audience now via mainstream media that this was a betrayal of us and our military interests on the continental though set nations like no way in the netherlands with very heavily invested in sending troops to afghanistan. There hasn't been any line of that has been much more concentration on civilian deaths rather more. I think accurate and and humane way of looking at the situation so if people have only been listening to mainstream talking heads in britain about the sad tragedy of afghanistan will it certainly is a sad human tragedy and incomparable. But i'm afraid entirely will see. It was found back in two thousand and five when i was on shift work for the first time as a young age q. Officer we were there on a special operation for the protection of sas troops who were accompanying the afghan national army in eradicating poppy fields and within a couple of hours of the sas accompanying the a anna. The local troops newly recruited. It goes into a poppy field area. Either in the northeast in dongguan in the south helmand the opium factories we could see on. There is intelligence acids was starting to cook get. This has got to be well unusual similar things in the city of london. The the same time it's got to have been a foreseeable plan and from the beginning. The west was in afghanistan militarily to ensure that the drugs got to europe to keep the financial system afloat. This was well known by people who are great dissidents and outside fifteen ten years ago. But i'm afraid now plausible main street where we're going to be coming onto that issue of drugs and just a second but just before we do that This is telegraphs headline this morning. Am i six. Holes talks with taliban to prevent terrorists plotting attacks from afghanistan. But my question. Alex is you know who exactly has been airlifted out of afghanistan into europe and into the united kingdom. And you know are we d think. Are we going to see a re igniting of the types of so-called terrorism that we've seen over the last twenty years with happening within the uk were islam and terrorism. Starting to come to the surface again which we haven't seen since cova strangely enough. It's almost as if the government is was too busy with with another agenda and didn't have time to run any terrorist attacks in the uk. But maybe i'm just being too cynical there. I'm afraid go forbid. i do. Foresee the likelihood if more shots and banks in western europe and north america and australasia. Because we haven't had those for a couple of years. The script of islamic terrorism has been somewhat retired. That has we'll be covering from switzerland. Shortly there all these nebulous claims of covet related to terrorism. That doesn't ever a bogus islamic angle attached to it as yet but who knows it is likely to swing back into action because in order to Have one of these waves of terrorist threats. You need an inscrutable nation. More instable the better. The less the intelligence officers let alone. The general public really know about the culture and mentality particular country in afghanistan. It really the back of beyond all the major power certainly the west ones. The more plausible is to wind up a few Mind fiddle mind control. People let them loosen the west with libyan islamic fighting group in manchester of course and then plausibly denied that it was anything to do with the western spooky. Yes indeed so at anyone and eddie thought that That this should be understood. This is the council on foreign relations from March twenty twenty and their headline. There is us taliban peacedale water. No and there's a whole lot of coverage of the fact that the united states on the taliban were in discussions at that time There has been relatively that linda. The press in recent months up until this point but suddenly the us has had on the uk of withdrawn completely In the meantime then. Alex is talking about drugs. Will wall street journal. Couple of days ago taliban moved to ban opium production in afghanistan so already they're talking about banning opium production and replacing the opium production in helmand for example with With food actually strangely enough. You know occasionally sort of need food. But this was the bbc's coverage afghanistan how much opium is produced and what's the taliban's record And as we scroll down through this will they show the graph which comes from the united nations office for drugs And we've shown this graph many many times ourselves showing that when the Taliban was effectively in control of afghanistan in two thousand and one afghan opium production fell almost zero And it was only after the united states and the uk particularly the uk and helmand province. Because we had responsibility for that area Got back into control of those areas that the puppy production started increasing again So later on they say they say what the taliban's record And they say the bbc. This is at first opium. Poppy cultivation was substantially under a with sorry rose substantially under taliban rule for iran for forty one thousand hectares in one thousand nine hundred ninety s to more than sixty four thousand in two thousand in the year. Two thousand that is according to the us state department But a july two thousand the taliban bond opium poppy farming and until out just strangely enough seemed to be Around the time that The west decided to to invade and as we say opium production Was pushed back up again. But then there's other stuff going on as well because now that the taliban is certainly china has been working very hard over the last number of months to convince the taliban That they should be working together with china on. The belt wrote neither neither taliban back in control that seems to be starting to happen and so it's all a bit. It's all a bit confusing. Alex in a sense because we've got things which or all about proper economic development being discussed. We've got the taliban talking about stopping opium production once again. Is this why. Britain is particularly upset with this decision by the us because In fact the opium trade is decimated by but equally There's economic development potential there quite apart from the untapped mineral wealth of afghanistan in the whole of landlocked central asia which is well known and the oil routes which as with syria played a very large. Art is not a cliche to say. It's a very large part in the the origin. The concerts belly of the will. You have just the the geographical location. Even if afghanistan was barracks with no interesting subsoil. you would still have its location linking china and russia. Well we east. West china with the the middle eastern europe north south russia with india and the bay of bengal so that is clearly prime real estate for motorways railways and things. The top of has goes not had any measure. But you know those of short memory or younger might not know that back in the nineteen sixties and seventies before the communist najibullah. Reggie which the soviets were prompted triggered into invading supporting and speaking of brzezinski the the key the kingpin of us each posey boasted about this that he'd given the soviets another vietnam by enticing them demand before that regime. That was already under the king of afghanistan. A lot of this economic planning together with the mall tokenistic things the western media pay attention to such as women. Short skirts going to university. And not being harassed. The things that we're told we went to afghanistan in two thousand one to protect them now. We're being told we wouldn't have them anymore. Also that there's been a multi decade agenda some parties like china in. It's more recent incarnation of been more interested in that others have not We should also point out that the taliban what wait what you discussed. Mike was the economic unity or planning of the taliban government the taliban disparate entity and like apply in the case of Arab countries really only has identity in the english. Language is a singular item any continental language correctly reports the taliban with a plural verb. The taliban have the taliban are because taliban is up to renown very early in my q. Days there was one occasion when a transcriber said to me i. Here's a tally on the line. I said what's tally bogus. Of course singular in an arabic. So taliban is this students it's plural just like al qaeda. I'm into the database and we. We don't have time to get into the ins and outs of it because it is a disparate group as general sirat. Dan head of the british army said the other day country boys. He's hinting there. And that was your point again. Mike that economically britain would prefer them to be a bunch of hicks that just hand over to the next western-backed warlords and i think his prime worry that he's subconsciously. Vent to that is that they will learn to be molten ex and actually realize the value of their precious metals oil reserves Another precious metal and oil but also rare earths which of course as we move towards cop twenty six in this pressure to to get everybody onto electric cars and everything else become much more valuable and so yes. Afghanistan definitely has plenty to offer their But the bbc wants to make sure. We're focused on high nasty. The regime is not not suffer. Any not suggesting that the suddenly becoming a nice guy he's in any way I think there's a lot to unpack here and a lot to discuss on not attempting to put forward a particular narrative such simply Showing what what we're seeing in the press at the moment and really highlighting topics future discussion. Here we've got afganistan's weaker sphere the taliban a ni- china to So again. We're we're presenting narrative of of a an oppressed minority That we've got to be Supporting But i just want to remind remind everybody what the bbc had said about the heroin and the street in the past This is from july last year What the heroin. Heroin industry contagious about solar power. And this was Solar power of course being in the sense of the sun Growing being the parcel was to grow the puppies. And this was the quote that i just thought was the best from that That article the heroine industry is perhaps purest example of capitalism on the planet i just thought that was spectacular more than one hidden meaning on or just wanted to comment on the facts that a couple of days ago we had the the bbc expressing surprise concern that the americans were pulling out and it appeared that the british We did not have military capability to carry on the operation and secure the apple or indeed run ronald the flights to get people out Like just come back to you on this alex but it was as though the bbc was was just completely shocked The we no longer have a real military capability and of course the moment the americans said they were going to pull out. That meant that we were left with nothing. No real capability on the ground Bbc seems to failed every time we are operating with americans. We're doing it On an equal footing. which of course is complete nonsense. The bbc is an example of this the new crop of young militarily inexperienced defense correspondents for the broadsheets such as the times are similar. You've covered that. Brian in the past day off spun will wanted the expected to believe about the capabilities and philosophy of the british military by embiid by the m the media related offices who who control the embedded Correspondence and that's the only view of the situation. They have some of them who know the country very well. Some of that the mainstream reporters. I mean have a operated in kabul for awhile a more culpable than that A very good interview by vanessa with lucy morgan edwards the other day a really good expert on afghanistan who is speaking very frankly about the the lives of the mainstream media in this current situation About just came out the other day and Lee lucy morgan which pointed out specifically that do set. Well known canadian internationalists as it were who wish. She makes a point of being loveless who has reported from syria and afghanistan for the bbc and others New afghanistan far too well to be genuinely shocked about the collapse in the way that she feigned. Lucy morgan it was suggested that was even true of these. Correspondents knowledge of the british in many ways. It's comparable to out. The british ministry was meant to held onto southern iraqi provinces after the two thousand three invasion around basra and again the blurb that the british military was giving to its own bubble into the media at the time was We don't need as much armaments and training and toughness as the americans in the north of iraq because our province in both afghanistan and iraq that responsible for wear helmets often softly-softly and friendly and the military man knew it was a lot of junk and bunk of this. But they went with it anyway. So a self-delusion lucy. Morgan was set in a recent interview with the necessarily self-delusion taken hold and particularly in britain. The military guys will only speak to each other. They will not listen to civilian experts. Who are in-country or lived in the country. For many years on native they will only speak to each other. Okay thanks for that. Unlike irony other comment is of course. The americans revealed that some eight hundred nine billion dollars worth of equipment has been left behind at the moment. We don't see what the value of the uk equipment that that's been left behind. This appears to be something that the government would roll the the pub- the general public doesn't know but presumably it's a substantial amount of equipment. And i think the figure for uk equipment left in iraq was about a billion or one and a half billion. I don't know what you've seen anything on those figures. alex. I haven't but it wouldn't surprise me. The first thing that came to my mind when this collapse engineered collapse all arms in our red narrative started about a week and a half ago was This would be another case of antony see sutton's maxim from the nineteen seventies. The best enemy money can buy not making level certainly at corporate and banking level internationally. The thinking when one of these epoch defining occupations or wars comes to end this. We need to leave enough kit in the country and enough intelligence. So that the guys we've been fighting can be all patsies next time. I'm afraid it is the history of the twentieth century. Leisa germany russia many east asian countries a now afghanistan again. Thank you for that. Yep okay we'll look just works going to move on but on the subject of drugs a little bit of an aside here of course sentinel is artificial opium which has taken over heroin us number one opiate overdose killer cbs news. They're talking about the united states But of course in the united kingdom as well and if we go back to the script allah fair Whatever the The two civilians were allegedly poisoning nova. Chalk it was initially thought to be related issues so The texas very small there but It was initially thought it was fence fence related. And certainly the swindon advertiser around the same time was talking about this super strength since synthetic heroin on the streets of the uk but look this is kind of a strange kind of segue. But i wanted to just remind everybody. What Dim solid davies. Who was the chief medical officer at the time had said about nava. Chalk the the nerve agent Because the some confusion as a say in the in the Press about whether fenton nova chocolate that those people were poisoned west but sally davies the time if you remember said my advice friend individual The who might come in contact with novacek washer close wiped on any personal items shoes and bags with cleansing baby wipes before disposing of them. In the usual way at my we made a lot of fun about this at the time but the question that ultimately ended it was this What is the actual. Uk government's narva for what was the narrative about chuck was never chocolate deadly nerve agent which lasts forever and kills at a glance or wasn't a low risk nerve at a low risk agent which could be washed away with everyday detergent and baby wipes and brad. I just wanted to put that back on screen again. Because that was quite a few years ago i and when not kind of narrative was being pushed out by the chief medical officer at the time. And i appreciate that. That's the previous chief medical officer not the current one but we've had the same type of inconsistency through the whole Covert crisis You know i've got to ask. When when is the british public learn their lessons. Well when when they concede the loiseau that in all the material coming out from the government. This is the beauty of the circumstances at the moment is we don't have to provide the evidence. The evidence of the lies and misinformation. The propaganda is simply being delivered by the government itself. It's beautiful situation okay. I'll accessible to defend defense issues and this is from usa us six naval task groups from u. s. u. k. India japan australia underway in the pacific. Is this more china and it looks very much like it. Might we have a full house. We have the whole quote of the western and western allied countries. That have agreed to encircle china. And we have a tim. Britain involves or no no disrespect meant to the queen elizabeth carrier group. I think brian will forgive me. This this remark. So let's see what's going on the us naval institute's outlet us news and numerous the carrier groups now of course the pacific is at jolie. Big ocean Let's bear that in mind but similtaneously currently operating in the region according to this report all the us navy's culbertson carrier strike group. Japan based american expeditionary strike group the royal navy's queen elizabeth carrier strike group. Which is the other nations escort vessels. Of course the australian defence force indo pacific endeavour twenty one ask group the japan maritime self defense force acid japanese navy indo pacific deployment 2021 force and the indian navy eastern fleet task group. So this is a closely attempts to guarantee ops freedom of navigation operations and us News reports Goes onto triple the british contingent. This will really keep the streets of taiwan in this the audience Channels open wanted and the weight on vengeance of the americans. The squadron integrated with the royal Royal ethel's is six one seven squadron. The dam busters. I will square spare you. The theme tune of that will moving butter there. We are again notable. No no slight meant to the gallant men and women a royal airforce but the dambusters doesn't quite do it. I don't think china that we that's britain's contribution so this is a conglomeration of the five powers naval agreement of nineteen sixty and the formed a couple of years ago ole ensuring. The chinese navy stays emden. Meanwhile if you're in queensland in eastern australia has sent us something which we don't think has been covered very widely although even british troops have been involved in this exercise off the queensland coast That's been a training exercise in bowen queensland. Just very recently this local paper reports that the viewer snapped is about the only source we have for it and they go on to report on the next page of the local newspaper covering it. That's the name of the excise was talisman. Saber and that they were brits involved. We don't know much. The article goes on to assure everyone that there's no copied contamination because the the nasty sailors and soldiers will will stay out to sea when when they're not required to storm the beaches. But we'd have a couple of snaps of what the us senate so any strategic air spotters and enthusiasts can inform to the significance of these being pumped on the apron on the gold coast Australia for the duration of the exercise. The view notifies us and there's one more short of that through the glass of the average rome view notifies us that while this was going on and the various Allied ships western ships and marines. Were out just off the queensland coast. There was quote a massive chinese. Walsh it further out to sea. We not aware if whether this was a bait exercise a saber rattling or some kind of coordinated. standoff against each other. Sir it's up to the chinese volunteered to be part of this Anglo-american australian exercise so at any reliable information will be welcome to clarify. What's going on there. It seems that's been a national level media silence on that operation and go back to europe defense news in the. Us is reporting that something. We've reported on the quite a while. The military mobility projects of the in us military initiative. Esco is now stuck because the netherlands. Which of course is the host country for a lot of these roading at the track vehicles easy onscreen via rotterdam to go up to the eastern front when required as the netherlands is is on point for the for the military mobility project of the eu. They're now having to Square an agreement between the member states of the eu who were the founder members of this initiative and now the to north american members of nato and no way none of the which is in the eu and one screen. As you tap the next button is most significant at the end of the article. Defense news reports again. The omnipresence of the defense industry becoming a trans Continental agglomerated this points in the background. So they report. This won't seems to be snagging. It is not just that nato countries are trying to jump onto an e you bandwagon To harmonize the scripts but more particularly that some member states this is of nato story of the eu esco have previously indicated discomfort with the idea of allowing a degree of us involvement. That could result in american defense industry. Heavyweights playing a dominant role. Later on For those who can't quite join the dots if the next afghanistan is russia or buffet country around russia. That's the next generation long war and that will be the next opportunity for a. Us led but in fact global reach defense industry to send more and more expensive kitten white elephants into europe. So that's why this is now transcending even the eu and becoming a nato white. Yeah i was just gonna say alex. Well it's interesting that the uk government has just released a new statement in support of ukraine's perhaps that's the next step. It could very well be it really could At this point many of those smartest analysts who cover both russian and chinese world saying that ukraine is even more of a tinderbox than taiwan at this point and so these things can be flicked at the drop of a hat. That's it could very. Well be staying on the military. The pentagon so the controllers also have an employer's law of all the us troops have all of it service branches have announced and his secretary of state level But he's been signed off the is now a vaccine mandate for covet nineteen vaccines but no set deadline at the moment. Of course only the fighter shot has been given. Fda approval more on that alone. Because there's a wangle involved there as well but as suggestions that the us secretary of state defense Could in the wording that he's in memo put pressure on president biden to allow those shots that do not even have the rule yet johnson and johnson and moderna which ocean being used in the us that these could be made mandatory for troops before getting fda approval. Now what does the military time say about this which is particularly interesting. What people can freeze the screen. We won't go through the stats but the us navy is the most jabbed service which goes down to the us. Army being the more recalcitrant service. It seems that fewer than half of overhaul fifty seven percents of the us army have partial coverage and forty percent only have full coverage whereas the navy is got three quarters of full-time fulltime personnel jabs. Without taking too much time Away from it since we have retired nadelmann with us. I wonder whether brian can give us an idea. As to what the fact is might be asked to why the us navy has got so much more compliance than the us army a. That's a difficult question to answer alex. But i think maybe something as simple as the fact that if you've got people on board the ship you've got an absolute captive audience particularly if the ships on deployment There's nowhere to go. There's nowhere to run will highlight so if the if the job is being made compulsory you you probably get end up taking it whereas if you will with a squad of troops in a base somewhere There's a bit more flexibility in in the in protesting but we know from quite a few years ago that some young royal marines were actually having trouble in that they were coming back from afghanistan and being offered so-called prophylactic drugs to prevent ptsd. And when they said well. There's nothing wrong with us. We wanted to take these drugs. They with with disciplinary action. They should take them. And we know that this calls great stressed some of these young royal marine so That's my best guess. The ship is a captive audience. Will what you say. Brian dovetails very well with what's going on to now because going down to the individual service level the army times in the united states has reported the memorandum will not publish did. They had scientists Which colonel level officer in charge of army health has signed off on. And which is the protocol for how to deal with those who say no thank you. I do not want your jobs. Which because that's been revised as they say in the green link there this is actually a pre existing and very worrying policies being restated. This comes from previous mandatory jobs in the military such as the disastrous cases around anthrax jabs twenty years ago some of the same producers of Now like emergent bio solutions who supply to astrazeneca. The language is not new but which is eyebrow raising in this context and probably very relevant to warships bryner They saw me only at this point. It will spread. Is that if there is likely an imminent threat. So in the gulf war that would have been with about to be on track bombed really really Or in this case we are about to go down with kobe. Believe mates that's the imminent threat. The base commander will unit commanded commencais. Hold that guy down while we shoot him up right so unit personnel. The document says in this predates cova crisis but reasserted now by the relevant colonel unit personnel. Us only only will only use the amount of force necessary to assist medical personnel. That would be an army nurse in administering the immunization so the holding down of people is. I'm afraid on the way at least in the military which tends to be tested many of these things. Now we were talking about phaser being the only fda authorized short but there are in fact. Two fighter jets so children's health defense with its organ. The defender have reported this Robert f. kennedy union and metal mass shootings both both very well known to many of us. Have this article two things. Mainstream media didn't tell you about the fda approval of the vaccine. And we'll just scoot through them in this article in density a better analysis else. Well so i should say ruminated analysis elsewhere. So the first thing that we weren't by the mainstream is that pfizer at noises. It doesn't actually have stocks in the us over the version. The community branded jabs Has got approval for and the second thing which we are not being told in the mainstream media. Is that the licensed fighter communality vaccine. So the one that has been Allowed to be mandated now although is not available in stock in the us apparently by design is distinct from the eu area. Finds a vaccine but apparently this does not impact safety or effectiveness so this article include given this background. The fda knowledge meant that there are insufficient stocks of the licensed one community. The licensed flavor of fighter exposes the so-called approval as a cynical scheme to encourage businesses and schools. Abacha the ministry give more just seeing to impose illegal jab mandates. So what does someone do in this situation. If they're an employee or a student in the states they can extremists. Say are you go. Mandates require me to be shot up with pfizer but only the community warm so i demands to have proof that you give me that version knowing full well and not necessarily saying that. There are no stocks that in the united states. That might by someone some time. Now this has been better digested because Nelson kennedy obesity at work about exposing this. It's been it's been analyzed the different way by swiss policy research very reliable website In an article entitled fis slash fda code on ninety five percent dissection question mark so this says in in plain language is that the lower paragraph on screen at the moment Pfizer are using the unavailable branded product community to justify ethically motivated that donation mandates. But they made then deliver the unbranded prada. That's the one that sir in stock in america the to avoid any liability for vaccine injuries. Because there's no liability under the end user agreement but that is liability under market license an update from the washington times justice. It's even worse than that. That law finds it doesn't Tonight at it's either of these shots is just the one. They claim some kind of local local authorisation. We continue on the ministry at one is going on that. The troops are now also regarded as so infantile that they can be told to be jabbed and held down if they say. I have my doubts about that Meanwhile there's an nami unit which has been training soldiers in house date. How lead romantic personal life. so again. The infantilism asian receives a pace so the time covers. They says tied dating jerks. The army is to help. And of course would be the large number of single particularly young women who are now in the in this Military seen who getting their heartbroken who endeavoured militarily effective. so what's happened is the fifth course out in. They had an off site in ohio. But it's a neighboring state where their base they had an off site with a workshop entitled dote. don't date a jerk and they actually have a court chaplain captain. Brad bishop Who put out a press. Statement linked from the peace who says the army wants to make sure we're putting trading and value back into developing healthy relationships so this is to the us. Samis people. i initiative. It's an it's an offsite cooled strong bums a unit based chaplain that program seeking to enhance so jet resiliency through personal enrichment. It's looking like when you join up to fight uncle sam though you have no power over your own body. You'll told you don't have the mind to workout. What health administrations need and you also told whom date is there. Any personal life left full. Us service people obviously got this adult so notes. Well a thank you demonstrating quite happily alex. They're not regarded as adults and they're not being treated as adults and of course the result of that is that we're getting all sorts of disciplinary problems onboard american warships and in the other own forces. So this is actually break down. This is a cultural attack on the american military from the inside. And i think we're starting to see some pretty severe effects as a result of it. It certainly not accidental policy and date in the meantime back to the uk and well. The headline at the end last week was cova. Spike forces devon on will to call an army to support ambulance crews so we Military back on the streets in order to support ambulance crews i. It was a bank holiday weekend so the clearly ambulance crews indefinite crumble under better pressure because of the extra number of people that were in those contexts. But it's not like they didn't know that was going to happen So surely they must have been prepared flop bryant but anyway designated by the government doesn't enhanced response area over the bank holiday weekend residents in the southwest. We're being advised to wear masks socially distance So there you go now. I have to say i had calls to be A sheriff hospital yesterday and two things are absolutely clear within the hospital. one is that The modern what's the issue you with. If you do have a symptom They will absolutely Assume that first of all that that's what it is if it's temperature for example You don't have to have any kind of actual response respiratory symptoms of the issue. That's what it is but it's it's pretty clear that The the hospital on him sure every other hospital in the country is being run on the principle of the artists on the idea of a symptomatic. spread It doesn't matter whether you're displaying symptoms or not. Assumptions are being made and i do that question whether the whether people are being diagnosed properly one or the other things that i noticed that the hospital is that they have. Mri scanners outside the hospital now. They are temporary. Scanners it temporarily housed and so i just wanted to remind everybody what the latest stats are from the s. Because the point that. I want to continue to remind everybody off is that With rising waiting lists and talk of anything from ten to fifteen million people on the waiting list by the end of the year at the end it just the consistent area where there's been excess mortality since the beginning of this whole thing has been people dying in their homes having received The medical treatment that they need for non covert related issues. And if we just look at the latest statistics from the us showing what they are describing people that are deaths having died from not involving covert nineteen deaths which are involving covert nineteen and of course the definite definition of that is someone who tested positive tests within twenty days of the death. Well if we go back to botch last year we can see that Even though there are a number of deaths quite a significant number of desks there which are attributed to covert nineteen whether that's confirmed or not there were also a significant number of deaths which were not involving covert nineteen according to the west analysis definition above the five year average. Line so Already by march. Twenty twenty and april twenty twenty. The nhl was not succeeding in maintaining any kind. The standard service. It seems to me. Maybe that's some people might find out a little bit harsh company autumn last year The autumn twenty twenty coming into the winter of twenty twenty. We started to see What we're deaths being attributed to covert nineteen again taking the all cause mortality levels up above the five year average again. But you'll notice that we sold that starting to full Just prior to the vaccination program and then suddenly we have this massive at spike at following vaccination a couple of weeks following the vaccination program then in the summer as in twenty twenty. We've had very little Mortality relative to the five year average or below the five year average line. But you notice this backup again a backup above the five year average line at the moment but again were the mets. At least fifty percent of those excess deaths are not involving in nineteen according to the Ss definition of of a death involving nineteen and a lot of course the government's definition which is a positive test within twenty eight days of the death. I just want to remind everybody. Of course that when we look at the trends the the types of people have been affected by cova over the last eighteen months even admitted by full fact because really they couldn't avoid admitting this The average age of a person who died from covert is eighty two years and three months. The average age of death from other causes is one years And so you know again. The question has to be asked. Why are we experiencing this situation. Where the nhs is effectively not able to provide a service for any other calls than covert that. Why is the service not able to cope with a bank holiday weekend. Wise the army heaven to be brought on the streets. Where's the justification for locked on mass vaccination programs and so on it isn't there at based on the mortality statistics. No an it's a subject. Which food facts won't be investigating because they simply shy away from looking at the trees statistics and coming up with the accurate information. F- let's get onto a document that's caused a cost a lot of people to Question vaccination program so this has been circulating for few days but several people pushed it up covet knowing more at three m or an vaccine. The risk management plan Now this is dated around the fifteen of eight pool. Twenty twenty one Foyers adult uments but as we'll see Whether it's purely the company or it's working together with your With the medicines agency is difficult to tell but some fascinating information in this document. So let's have a little look through it. This comes up quite quickly We've got the details of the particular Plant itself and there's the date of approval fifteenth april. Twenty twenty one. And then it puts down a lady's name barbara banality as the cube. Pp v while. What is this. This is the qualified person. So falmer cozy jilin so this effectively as a person who should be absolutely looking after the welfare of the public looking for the safety of the vaccine to making sure that the public pub members of the public hurt in in any way are just going to have a look for this lady and who exactly she was. I ended up on the european forum for qualified person for foam occur vigilance and this was a conference workshop. That happens to be held in october. Two thousand eighteen at london. Heathrow london heathrow. And she is the lady down at the bottom so we can just bring that up on screen and it says e u. q. P p the deputy head of eu safety office pfizer. Italy now found they interesting. Because you say well is. She working directly Working for the eu on circumvent pfizer. Or does she have a foot in both camps. And i wasn't able to find out illness to that so we'll say to our audience if you can help pin down exactly where this lady works in a role that will be extremely interesting and a research. I'm just digressing slightly. But i think this is important to me onto the european medicines agency hideo. And we'll call my was that if we have a look at the chief executives. We've got a lady called emma cook and we've find previously she was working for the will taus organization As the medical product regulatory activities expert. So we stole it to see this revolving wheel of people moving through the world title for. We're gonna always ation back into say the nhra if it was uk or in the E you Benson's agency in this case and it's difficult to pin down whether these people are actually Poachers all the gamekeeper. So what did the document had to say. Well it said in summary. The non clinical safety findings related to go. Nineteen am all rene vaccine administration primarily represent and expected immune reaction to vaccine administration but it's clinically manageable and acceptable risks intended population. So no problems there. Might there completely happy but that is a little bit of a summary. Let's have a look at what it actually said. So these key safety findings and we've got nolan clinical studies and we've got no evidence says vaccine elicited disease enhancement suggests a low risk vaccine in halse enhanced disease in humans. And there's little notes that a and b so we'll have a look at those. So as i said the safety pharmacology gino toxicity and karsono genesee. Studies were not conducted. So now we're going into the meat of the thing and what we're gonna find. Is that a lot of things. Were not done a not known and this seems to fit very nicely with the fat but actually we've got an experimental products unleashed on the public out. That way went these conducted what it says because that was in accordance with the two thousand five who vaccine guidelines as they are generally not considered necessary to support development and licensure of vaccines for infectious diseases. So that was convenient. We don't have to do it because well the two thousand five who rules say we don't and if we have a look at the bay it says based on audited study data adult study evaluating cova nineteen and more rene vaccine will be completed by the thirty first of march twenty twenty one. We'll see that in a minute. But the doll is to do with reproductive issues so toxicity. Injection site reactions were coleman and reversible apparently and showed soins of reversibility at the end of the three week recovery period in nome clinical studies. These rule known clinical in common with other vaccines cove insane. I'm all an rn. A vaccine administration has the potential to generate in fact injection site reactions such as dima rhythmic injections sites so some acknowledgement of problems. But it's only moina's stuff around the injection site. Then we move on says evidence of inflammation or immune. Activation was common but reversible. Bought is molly injection that reversible and included trenchantly why body temperature higher circulating wbz's and hierarchy cheap phase reactions. So it's acknowledged that there was evidence of inflammation or immune activation but again. It's being put out. This was no problem. And then we get onto the dell tissues. No vaccine related effects on the female fertility. The development of fetuses or offspring were observed in adult study of b. n. T. one six to be two in rats. So i thought that the average lady would feel greatly encouraged to know that The hadn't been any problems in rats and on that basis. According to that study they can go ahead and and be giving it to live human beings Where do we go from that well. He's frail patients with co morbidity. And what says very quickly it says. The vaccine has been studied in individual with stable chronic diseases. However it's not being studied in frail individuals with severe co morbidity mike. We haven't done the trials here at if we move onto the next one long term safety data we quickly find exactly the same. The towing the vaccine availability. The long term safety of being t one six to be to amorini vaccine is not fully now so this is a risk assessment sheet where it's continually saying that the the trials have not been done on safety all the results on the safety and not known alex. You're looking at this squad intently. I can say onscreen. Would you like to comment before. I move on this amazing document just to remind those who didn't catch the b. n. t. followed by a string that is the pfizer vaccine ambitious particular issue. That dr hurry. Seligman has drawn attention to has been written up by ian davis will on the in a piece that still on the front of uk. Column dot org That there is a particular problem in studies now acknowledging the actually there's a window between the jabs and shortly after the second job where you have very much higher death rates than in the background population multiple dozen times Death rates or a short period. So this is something specifically about pfizer remained a reminder in the last segment we were talking about having gold ahead of the pack in the united states in at least one version community now has the full authorisation the eu a and yet all this is going on in the background sloppily done tests it. Someone in the chat box has said they'd make their Very dry reading but my fellow put that in the jam books. I'm show you know this and you're being ironic. This is how people get away with things. Isn't it by putting small print and footnotes in that say. Actually the work wasn't done properly well and excuse me then. They're allowed to get away with that. Alex boy the shell. Ray that simply does not hold them to account over this sloppy and would say dangerous experimentation on the public. Let's move on through the document and bring the next one up interaction with other vaccines. What does it say What it says there are no data on interaction with pfizer vaccine with other vaccines at this time and yet the moment is facts was unleashed on the population. It was clearly being mixed with astra zeneca and other other vaccines but there was no safety data according to this document so the proof is there that this was a trial unleashed on. The public is long term safety data and the towing vaccine availability that long term safety of the poyser vaccine is not fully known and it really goes on because if we get into a summary of the safety concerns Look at this box. Loa left missing information. What are we missing. Well information on pregnancy and breastfeeding information on immuno compromise patience. Its use in frail patients with co mobility's its use in patients with autoimmune inflammatory disorders Interaction with other vaccines a long term safety data. But don't worry it's completely safe. Yes yes okay now. If you like what the uk call dawson you would like to support a sympathy said or did you call them dot org forward slash community and you're a will join us. They're very much appreciated And very much needed also to share our material that you find on the various platforms brown youtube rumble but should all to see. And so on. Ni- alex We have an email in our sorry. This is first of all together declaration dot. Org wants to highlight a couple of brief announcements in this segment together. Declaration dot org is very laudable initiative by moral leaders of society with the ministers of religion and medics in the lead to see Resisting any suggestion. That vaccine passports Reconcilable with british liberties and what a particular strength of this declaration is is that a inc number of overseas born people who make a point in the declaration of saying we had to find these liberties and we saw people die Lack of them. And now we're in britain. Same things happening again so do go and see that now. A an old friend of uk has written another Stoneking piece in global research. The excellent canadian website phone regularly writes so julian. Rose has written a piece entitled the great global warming along with global warming and inverted commerce is part of the world economic forum's great reset and onscreen uncle to extract here. He's talking about the scary message of disaster. If we don't act on the inning everything. So the point he's making as the editors of put in the self edit here as well in the piece is that fear is the glue that binds it altogether and one more announcement. Those of illegal interest may be aware of the european center for law and justice. Uc l. j. dot org based in strasbourg and run by the french. Lawyer griego grouping. Who's done excellent work yeoman's work in digging out. Sodas organizations control the appointments of many judges ultimately in the training of many judges to the european cool to human rights. But now he's gone on from that success to look at the financing of u. n. experts robert similar to what. Brian was saying a few moments ago with a revolving doors agency like the so the j which is worth subscribing to the newsletter as exposed. How easy experts are not. Actually impartial experts. In many cases they're funded by the usual tycoons. Whose names are increasing. Well known to the general Now okay and just briefly alex of code. You had a an email in from straight view. Yes the australian view and this is just also trailing the extra time. We'll be focusing on australia in a couple of videos videos so if those who are subscribers we'll go into more detail the viewer rights. You've probably already heard this that. The contracts signed between government and big pharma have a quota to meet. And if they don't meet it the land commodities will be up for grabs where we haven't seen the contracts. That's the whole point. That being kept secret. So i will will this. As credible information on the view this sounds plausible says the view due to the sheer desperation. The government's displaying to coerced people into getting the job. Now just seen us not sure if you have more info on the contract we haven't and the viewer says. I work in healthy in australia. And they are segregating us known vexed. Not sure whether they're going to put us but they are wanting to but they're labeling the buildings red zone so if you'll notice jabbed it's red zone all under the guise of work health and safety to protect the vacs and of course the navy goes on to say that they feel despair in at times which take some guts to say because this really is something that can lead people to despair. Bouts of course. I replied to hang in there and to ensure that we can see ends to this period of the australians are certainly getting really bad right now. without Without question it's bad that another email from australia This gentleman roger says. I hope you will cover the arrest and imprisonment of monica schmidt. Leader the Democracy australia policy it becomes australia's first political prisoner of i. A western democracy will it was once The that alerted me going to sound. Did points information on this lady from x. knowing knowing news but it's not a very good report but it appears that she's been arrested on shoji's relating to provocation so inciting unrest presumably. I haven't got a fool and detailed report on itself. There's somebody in australia who's watching us at the moment. Oil looking at recording later on please. Can you help us out more information. An all say anecdotally as speaking over the weekend to somebody. Who's got a family out in Australia They were saying it's horrific. What sir walter. Family member in australia reportings. I believe copters in this sky shouting warnings and telling people to get indoor drones flying helicopter. Flights said noise and of course people being arrested and the interstate highways shutdown with demonstrations by lorry-drivers. I think being quite brutally dealt with it. So if you're in australia and you can give more information. Will video footage audio report. We would love to have it Okay Heading over to euronews night on the headline here is at least raises for protests over you. Covert rules for domestic travel. And sorry was this was this yours. Alex was it my next to the next in a statement online. Yeah right. so that's what confused me there right. Okay well what basically what. At least what. The italian government is saying is. They're going to have zero tolerance against demonstrators Who are going to block. The dumpster are planning to block trade tracks To protest new. Kobe rules for long distance. Travel so Euronews saying that From today travelers will be allowed to use certain public transport if they show a so-called grade pass that which proves a recent vaccination negative cova tests in the last forty eight hours or recovery from the disease in the last six months So the rules were announced a couple of weeks ago at applies to any travel including domestic flights travel at sea travel. Some ferries are exempt exempt. But lots of people wanting to protest about that. The italian government set very saying very very clearly that they are not going to put up with that But back to the uk for second because here's The evening standard set claiming that the released meth police are claiming that they have spent fifty million so far policing extinction rebellion protests since two thousand nine hundred and the question is why is this in the news right now because okay extinction rebellions probably going to raise his head over the next few weeks as we run up to twenty six but there hasn't been much disruption certainly since Covert began so. Why is this being brought up right now. Of course the reason being brought up right now is because the The policing police crime criminal conduct. Bill can't remember. The exact name is coming into back into parliament for a well. It's progressive quite swimmingly through parliament. Alex is going to prevent A lot of protests to people being pushed into protest pencil an extinction rebellion being used as sort of poster child for this as the excuse for this kind of decode and shut down and down but was coenen shut down on protests but what fascinated me about. This was yet again. We have an identical policy at popping up in various parts of the world in the uk ended at le- They're basically protest is not going to be permitted in the very near future. If italians continentals are wondering what's coming down the turnpike because the americans say read the road to kill the bill an excellent e book and print book which outlines how the northern english police forces perfected this method. Just for your european fellows to enjoy the benefits of and it's involves a fake extreme protest group being made the darling of the movement and stealing all the limelight and staging silly protests that are actually tipped off in advance to the police handing block stuff. And because of that you serious protesters won't get any media coverage will be talked with the same brush. That's the script was written in britain. Yes on it just wanted to highlight the fact that even the guardian risking flag about The police and crime bill because This headline i think was six nine th of august so quite a few weeks ago. Now i didn't see that the time but the police bill is not about law and order. It's bud state control. It absolutely is and you know it's it's something has upset many times it. Unfortunately the campaign to kill the bill has been effectively co opted by the extinction rebellion. Black lives matter and so on. But this is a subject which crosses All the political spectrum and everybody should be getting involved in in opposing white to oppose it. Of course getting touched with joshua clements. The journalists from the guardian is written at all tickle Give some support encouragement. Give more facts and evidence as to what's going on to encourage him to be producing material nicole's talking to his friends and telling them what's actually happening. So alex protests and francoism. Yes i haven't been able to trace wear in france but we just got into a bit of Footage without sound which has been shared on a number of platforms in this case. A gentleman called dan on the twitter. A reports that the french citizens are boycotting as you can see in this Poultry filmed footage right now. They're boycotting vaccine passports. The best sanita region outlaw in france by sprawling picnic rugs right in the middle of the shortwhile in streets and sticking to up gallantly one fingers. It would be there to these cafe owners who say you must have sony to eat on our So instead they're about a foot wealth three three feet away from the entrance into these cafes simply having a mass picnic on the street done in a real french-style with some great an action Would we could see such scenes in english speaking countries as. I say that we don't have that spirit. I'd like to be proved wrong now. Don't going over to germany. They have of course sixteen. Federal states like the. Us canada. Australia new also new zealand australia. They they have a management of health issues by state as britain has devolution. But even more also so that tonkin spiegel one of the quality berlin betas is reporting the most totalitarian stated if the sixteen western state of button. Vitim bug a. is planning quote a look down for the unvaccinated and quoting here the state premier of arden vitug and note. How many of these Worst premiers australia to supposedly sent to rights and social conservatives allegedly tomas strawberries one of those. He's he runs by state government and he told built on zone type the german equivalent of the some. That's if they have over three hundred patients in intensive care which is a number that can be very easily manipulated germany. We've reported german press covering this quite recently. Then they're going to do is look up the unjust and let the job get on with their lives without social distancing and then the quote in the middle of the business blown-up very interesting is fudge. He says it would be wrong as it morally wrong to hold everyone jointly liable including the japs. So why they're going to have other wiggle to have different rules for the job than for jet because the phrase used in german is that the job should not be taken in mid after which is a legal phrase meeting held jointly liable at law and it has overtones of kept in confinement with the office as well so he's he's a openly admitting that there is a kind of a legal A pseudo legal treatment going on here. that's you on jabbed. Are responsible for it all also giving the lie on that same german new story getting light to the idea that you'll be able to get a a green in the eu by proving a negative test status from pc artists will. Might you just read out that east. For the time being delegation italy or in the case in britain with these passes but hamburg at state level which is a city state within germany has already decreed that when venues such as cinemas reopen. They are the moment they can themselves decide. Whether it will be social distancing all not and if it's not socially distance then they will not accept a negative it will be jab. Antibodies indicating recovery. Exactly what has been predicted around the rest western world that the third option getting one of these passes which is paying through the nose literally and metaphorically for a test. Every few days is no longer going to be Kept open-endedly it. We jabal nothing in the end Another german quality paper felt as reported. Something rather interesting tellingly enough. It's in economics rubric of the paper. They reporting that. Nearly half of germany's very many doctors surgeries have stopped administering cove nineteen jabs so There are something over fifty thousand doctors surgeries in germany. A big country in very heavy on doctors and developed zone tug as a reported that the cook institute notorious to those who follow the german have copied has reluctantly had to admit in a survey carried out in the second week of august that currently they don't have over fifty thousand doctors surgeries administering the jobs anymore. It is now fewer than thirty thousand. The figure is now twenty nine thousand three hundred. So since a cluster of biology or autopsies have been carried out by a german pathologist as we reported when patriot was on the news before the break since they said this pathology has indicated that a large minority of those who died with copied on their certificate actually died off covet among the elderly in particular. That news has go through to doctors. Perhaps better than anyone else and something approaching half of the doctors surgeries in germany. Say no i will no longer administer this so the the purchasing and the stocks of these jobs are going down quite rapidly. Now as well quite precipitously over in switzerland the sunday imprint of the neue to sign to again a paper of record in germany. It's insolent in syriac reports that the secret service is warning of attacks on vaccine census. Let's go to a handy coverage of this by this in english by these singaporean quality paper the straits times their of the Headline is switzerland. Wounds of terror attacks on Nineteen backseat tonight. Vaccines is but what's this. We see that. There's a lot of blurb of the kind. I used to help right when i was at. Hq for the annual paper exercise of the revised threat levels for all countries in the shoes of terrorism in the world but the straits times reports at the end of this piece the agency. Swiss intelligence agency is concerned about the tax for militant groups so far there are no tangible indication over planned attacks. So it's it's another specter of the mind nothing. Surely this'll be the taliban it. Oh yes yes this will be. I mean anyone who comes from afghanistan from the countryside can be called a talib vendor and the extra treatment that's played in english than he's from the taliban is if that would a singular entity yes. Okay okay alex back to the uk. Then and the mur this is really heart rending. Particularly for me is the husband of a radiographer. Because i don't think a continental european country even where they are hard-pressed with Supposed kobe pandemic would do this. Young boy of seven has been refused. Mri scans because they need to the Supposedly hold discounting readiness now. His parents have been very diplomatic in what they're saying they can give him this exclusively to the daily mirror The headline is raced to save rain. Touma boy it's an aggressive. Uh stage three Glioma which of course is well known for flipping from benign to malignant very rapidly. So scans very much of the essence though the imaging diagnostics crucial to survival rachad with this condition causing delays as the headline leaves him with just a twenty percent chance of survival. Now obviously there are many factors in survivability individual case. So we're not being fooled in reporting this but let's see What's actually is going on. Here alexander joseph's who's seven Has twenty percent off of beating his cancer if he stays in britain and undergoes treatment and mri scan revealing. His tumor was conducted sees. It seems but it got lost amidst the chaos is parents incredibly. Have forgiven the hospital. This no continental hospital would forgive such a mistake among his own staff. Then surgery to remove the tumor was delayed three months because hospitals were overrun with asians. And his mother rhonda. Joseph says we don't leave the hospital we know they're doing very best to save him. I might beg to differ. If i know some people will find that morally reprehensible for me to say i do beg to differ there and finally in this mirror extract of the of the article. We see this that by christmas The younger alexander. Joseph was having to three seizures a day and he's terrified mother. Rhonda hospital begging them to operate and she said they still believed it was benign and said it was safer not to come in. This is really british isn't it. Oh don't worry dairy. By the second of january his condition had worsens but by then his mother rhonda was told they could not operate as the intensive care unit was on standby to be deployed for copied patients and private hospitals. You'll know better off there. In britain told the joseph's the same thing we cannot operate on this urgent case because there might be some of it people some so theoretical patients displacing real patients leading to deaths. Yes that is definitely a feature of the modern health service ad. Where does that take us. takes us to the lancet. Perhaps yes This is courtesy of s. Rn which is the elsevier owns network. That's a pre publishes which gives so gives gives academic events notice a forthcoming papers in the social sciences. And a bit broad now. Medical science in this case and this has become rather controversial. A study of healthcare workers who couldn't get out of ospital in vietnam during a delta variant wave will surge that had their noses swamped and the paper that resulted was entitled transmission of sauce to delta there in among vaccinated healthcare work in vietnam so vaccinated this right there in the headline okay so the comments by the facebook users who are able to ignace right under the load already include a few who was saying. It's outrageous that this is being misreported and that's what we see on on screen right now. So the talk to saying how outrageous to suggest. This has anything to do with jabs in america. Report a reply. Straightway saying actually. It's perfectly sensible to to draw into it. That's the they'd be people. The jets have given the key detail. I apologize the day sale. it was found. Is that The the staff whose swapped at two hundred and fifty one times as much viral load in their nasal passage of coverage of sauce co two Than in previous study before the delta variants. And they they. What would they're being. Total is what people are being total is by linking that the idea of a will what makes differences you'll jabbed and you antibody dependent enhancement coming in so This was reported by a number of people and publishes the prestigious oxford university. Clinical research unit published a rebuttal entitled al print article and they said that it's come to their attention that children's health defense same outlets that. Rfk rights four showed a moment to go at shed. The full s- claim that our paper demonstrators quote vaccinated individuals. Carry two hundred fifty times the load of covy nineteen viruses in their nostrils compared to the unvaccinated. False false false nothing to do with that nation etcetera but nothing daunted the also on children's health defense in this case it's a note to peter. Mccullough in texas has updated original peaceful children's health defense and in the clarification Freeze its to read it in more detail. He says actually still no satisfactory proof that there is no link here. He says the vaccination status of the patients in this pre-printed. This study is not reported. Those no one here has done a direct comparison between unvaccinated delta patients and unvaccinated earlier variant patients to determine the true with different environment. So prime facie is papers suggesting that because the job allows you to tolerate rather more of the infection but not that much more effective in the end at stopping you'll going to become an absolute crucible for the breeding of these viruses which will then roll out of you and in this case we're talking about vietnamese nurses who are in contact with vulnerable patients. So you can get the results again. We've we've got misleading data coming out with nicole defense of data which is essentially designed to mislead the public Where a we heading well. Of course we're heading situation. Germany that people are going to be treated differently depending on whether they're vaccinated or not thus there's the need to know who's had the vaccine so this document We've been extremely interested in digital documentation of covert knowing certificates. Vaccinations as status This is the world health organization and its subheading. His technical specifications and implementation guidance dated the twenty seventh of august. Twenty twenty one so the right up to date on this As the second page now we want to reassure viewers straight away that of course this is a completely independent document. So let's put this up This work was funded by the bill and melinda gates foundation. The government of estonia foundation batna the state of kuwait and the rockefeller foundation. So clearly no problems at all here and it says that the views of the funding bodies of not influenced the content of this document. In any way. That's just remarkable. So it's it's good to see Well if we get into it. It's a pretty comprehensive Do too much because we have a little bit shorter time but introduction here and in this section if we bring it up on screen it says cova nineteen vaccines are being delivered. A record speed and countries need a way to give individuals record of their vaccination. Status is all for us. We need to know. Ideally digital technology can be leveraged to facilitate large-scale vaccination campaigns on augment paper base vaccination calls which are easily lost and prone to fraud so this is all to help us. It's really good. And the purpose of the document Is to lay out an approach for creating a sewing digital version of a vaccination record cove in nineteen based on the core data. Set of key information to be recorded. An approach for the digital signature the document leverages existing free and open standards and is driven by the ethics use cases and requirements of the digital documentation digital documentation cove in nineteen certificates vaccination status and. That's the cc v. e. s. there. What's the target audience. Well we know getting to. The meat of the target audience of the document is national authorities. Toss crated or overseeing the development of digital vaccination certificate solution kovic knowing team but it may also be useful to government partners. Such is local businesses international organizations known government organizations and trade associations that may be required to support member states in developing or deploying a d. c. c. v. s. solution. So i think underneath that will just pop back in the decor sues funding it and what this documents trying to say is that the funds have no interest a toll in the target audience which causes completely false. They have an absolute interested in getting their agenda through to the target audience. So this is not really the world health organization we're dealing with. We're back with bill of melinda gates the state of qatar estonia for some reason and the rockefeller foundation. We follow it through. This is what they're looking at ethical considerations now if you think that's the ethics of having a vaccine boss no it's not because what they mean by ethical is equity and equitable access. Everybody should have the opportunity to get one of these noise pulses because it goes therapy here for health and safety and well being We've got to continue its of cast scenario. And that means that of course having this digital signature Will mean you know when you need the extra dose. So i find that reassuring. That's a little bit of sarcasm for overseas audience. So you're gonna have extra proof that you know when you were jabbed and therefore you're going to know when you needs another job proof of vaccines scenario. Well this is basically setting out of the details of the digital soyinka. We've got the cool data sets here and if you read the detail what is really saying. Is that this is to give continuity of vaccine calf the individual and proof of ax nation for the authorities. Then we've got the national trust architecture for the d. c. c. c. v. s. Well of course won't that's really talking about is countries need to have their own digital ecosystems in order for this architecture to be able to work properly so this is a very comprehensive program the national gordon governance considerations while he's talking about Fully embedding this in every national system. But also it's looking to create what they call a universal health coverage so. I think we can see. This is fully global governance coming in here and a control back in and if we do eight implementation considerations with building a digital health infrastructure for beyond in nineteen and. That's gonna be from childhood onwards so clearly this document thinks that children are going to be vaccinated at once they are they going to be fully on the vaccine possible as it were and the detail of the architecture is comprehensive need to go and have a look at this document yourself to see the amount of information in its but this is the business domain services section and now it gets interested because tucked away at the boston. We've got finance and insurance systems. So of course now we can see that this is not so much about health and wellbeing as a means to Document who we are what medication we've had and how they can make more profit from big foam date. I don't think this could be separated from the Central bank digital currencies. That are being ruled out by central banks globally at the moment or at least they're fairly. Well done the road towards that because this is the first time that central banks directly will be issuing currencies on retail business to us as individuals. And your your green pass is going to be much more than just copen status in the future. Indeed and you had no idea will the next slide was. Let's move on to that Because this document has tremendous acknowledgement for evolves number of people. Too many to to read iot on screen. You actually help the process. So his the first paragraph packed full of good people who have our health and wellbeing interests at heart his the second paragraph. let's highlight all the people who are involved with the world bank and what is surprise. we suddenly Can move across very smoothly from matters to do with health to matters to do with immense prophet and power for the world bank. So that aunts as you'll You'll come and But the accolate goes onto yet more people. And then it's royce at the end that of course we got. The statement of the work was fame. Depart the bill of melinda gates foundation But if you worried about what's coming. The nhs nhs axe to be precise is fully on board. This is information about using the nhs cova pulse. And of course this is the way. Destroy the digital data But one of our view is Found this and said we should highlights it. Which i'm delighted to do because it's a covert pulse exemption card and it says very clearly i'm exempt from using. Nhs kovic pulse and you can get one of those five pounds twenty five from this organization. I'll just put the details up so shop disability horizons. don't come so That we all we can see what's coming unless across we say no alex were completely out of time but you wanted to end with a very short piece of video yes. It's really gratifying. That this is an example of a young british artists who says that he's learned a lot from watching uk and he's put his learning into practice and On screen festival way. You can find him. He goes by the artist's name. Of lucas lioness lucas with a k. This is from his youtube channel. Sony simply called nine hundred eighty full The sixteen highlight. We're going to play now because it would be too technically challenging to play the obese. I'm afraid with mission. That sixteen by now is from the peace cool ninety four. The sixty buzz considers george orwell makes the point that was actually probably underestimating the deviousness of propagandists in the scheme that he otherwise fossil. The rest of the capability masters of trickery. Kidney world leaders is the world's don't fly the human psyche has been hijacked propaganda bomb. Mature mind talking. They wanna deceive dot com theories that great concern the price of televise. Endless lies kiki terrified. They maintain theories the prison that they never. Since the beginning. This has been demission. Politicians caused division vision. Play your net position to distract us from their masters. They hated george. Premonition seems like he saw commission for ships are racist time now to close site in ends instead. People have risen excellent and brilliant piece of music delighted to play that. So thank you to lucas lawn. And i just noticed as that particular clip was playing in the chapel. Somebody said well. It's no good saying no because the establishment is not paying attention to know. And i think the only two that has got to be. That's because enough people. We've we haven't yet got enough people who were saying. No we need enough people to be saying no and it stops. So that's that's a positive response. We need more people to be saying. No more Strongly and i'd like to end by saying that some over the break period. We've had some very generous. Doug nations come so i'm going to just mention ohio. Thank you very much out for the individuals in ohio the debated donation to the uk. Call them and also we've had another very generous donation from scotland which Very much appreciated. Thank you for that. I will be back in a few minutes on the Livestream if you're on the chop Through stay on the page and we will start again in about ten minutes or so out otherwise we got one. Pm as usual on friday. We say we're happy to see the audiences it depends. The oughtn't happy to see us so it's a two way thing you'll see in a few minutes about a by.

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Secrets of Livestock Industry, Part II: The Animals and the Bug

Stuff They Don't Want You To Know Audio

1:17:06 hr | 8 months ago

Secrets of Livestock Industry, Part II: The Animals and the Bug

"At carmax were pretty flexible with how you can buy a car. If you'd rather scroll through fifty thousand cars instead of walking the lot go for it if you want to see how a car smells on the lot before you buy it by all means. We all have our things. Want the whole thing to come to you without ever leaving home by online. Compare how the speaker sound when playing your favourite mixed visit our lot and if you wanna browse a little on the lot and in select markets and delivered at home. We're certainly not stopping carmax. The way it should be news with a new perspective news with a black perspective. The black information network is the first all news audience digital network core and by the black community. Get the podcast and get the biggest news and business stories delivered to you every morning subscribed to the black information network daily and wake up with the latest from the black information network and loaded and ready to go when you are listening to the black information to work daily on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Ever you get your podcast from post. To psychic powers government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff. They don't want you to know a production of iheart radio. Hello welcome back to the show. My name is matt. my name is noel. They called me ben. We're joined as always with our super producer. Paul mission control decades. Most importantly you are you. You are here and that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know we're diving back into the livestock industry so That's that's either disclaimer. Anyone eating right now or it's an invitation to turn it up while you're cooking whatever your cooking in your kitchen on our previous episode. We explored the gargantuan woods sometimes hidden economy behind in general and we noted just how much influence the livestock industry has upon so many other industries. And matt you pointed out. The transit is a huge piece of this. You know which a lot of people don't think about. Yeah most definitely the handles have to get there somehow a lot of times if you know depending on the facility and then they the product has to get other places as well and sometimes it's across oceans which is crazy to think about right right. The days of Cowboys herding cattle by foot by huff. Across the american west are are long god romanticized. It's one of those things we always talk about. Like how technology moves things forward and how refrigeration and just like ice is probably one of those meaningful technologies quote unquote of our species in many ways. It allows us to do so many things like ship meet without spoiling across oceans. And i like that ice example there knoll because there is a wonderful parable a real story about and ice and i think it can come into play in this episode but the the short and dirty of it is i believe we may have mentioned this in the past on stuff they want you know weighing refrigeration companies came out. They were entering an industry. An ice industry that already existed and the ice industry of the time did not create ice. They traveled up to a ones in. New york traveled up to canada and they would cut out blocks of ice. Cover it with. Hey and they would haul ass down to new york where they would sell the ice. So the refrigeration guys show up. They're the they're the new kids on the block new fridge on the block. Whatever you wanna call it new kids on the ice block. We can go a lot of different ways with and those. And when the refrigeration guys showed up the industry that existed that was based entirely on Cutting and hauling ice did not see them as allies or did not see them as opportunity instead they sought to shut that industry down they invested in faster trucks in different types of a different tires of because they did not see a word out ready to see the future for what it was and this this kind of you can call a couple of different things. Path dependence is one where we're so comfortable with the status quo process or technology that we are hesitant companies individuals groups governments. We are hesitant to embrace the new stuff. Because it may end the status quo to the truckers nelson. Laugh a so it is a crazy thing to think about if especially if you boil it down to an individual or tune individual level so we're talking about innovation especially in technology when something new comes along and then really. You're talking about money. The costs associated with retrofitting or replacing existing technology. So if you're talking about a single farmer and a new technology comes along that is not only more efficient but it's safer for an animal or something like that. You're talking about an individual person that probably has to get a major alone or work out something with whoever is distributing the stuff to retrofit or change everything or otherwise get get left behind and not to mention probably lose. You know a large portion of of time and money doing that process to where you have to move all of your livestock out or something. I mean it's just you. Can you can see why there's that push back against. Innovation has been historically totally. Yeah i love the farmers example there too because one of the one of the big ways of this changes happen Tend to be the developed world government subsidies which there are their own Very sticky bag badgers. But we're we're gonna we're doing a great job setting this. I hope the rest of the episode. Is this good. I don't want to cheat us so knock on wood Yet these points are all these points are all valid and there are really clear answers. That's the dilemma. There are also bad actors at plate. People who don't mind Skirting the rules cutting corners or breaking the law to maintain their position in a certain economic hierarchy. That's i know that. Sounds like a lot of gobbledygook. But it's true in our last episode we. We explored this in a In a number of examples. It's a question that people don't ask themselves very often in the west. Why is meat so cheap like would you consider all of the the care. This skill the the resources that are required to raise cattle raise chickens. Raise pigs Then y- it's weird that you can just go somewhere and get a pretty nice steak without breaking the bank This this is. This is an effect of the way the industry is set up and again as we said in our previous episode. This none of this is a dean on farmers. None of this is deana on the people who work in these industries and there is a very solid argument to be made that modern the big piece of modern civilization as we understand it cannot survive without this industry we cannot just shut off the switch will leave millions of work Will there will spell economic disaster in a number of areas. But why are we talking about that. We check out that. I episode in today's episode. We're examining another aspect of the livestock industry. And it's one that remains highly divisive in the modern day. Several of our fellow listeners wrote to us about this after episode one. And here's here's what we're focusing on. The animals themselves is. Here are the facts. I guarantee this is true. This is so weird in twilight zone. Believe it or not. There are people in the developed world who've never seen a cow in person. I've never seen a pig. Maybe never seen to chicken. Those are three of the largest meat sources around people. Millions of cows chickens and pigs You imagine never actually seen what tv. Oh yeah i mean. That's the whole point of the meat. Packing industry is to create that. Divide between people's food the actual living version of it. And then eating it. Because you know there's a lot of violence in kind of gnarly stuff that goes into killing your own raising and killing your own food. That a lot of regular old american kind of middle class folks probably couldn't stomach. Yeah i it's true. Another thing to point out here is that many of us especially in our generation have this fondness of animals that have been that have been portrayed in these big movies. I i'm thinking it's not necessarily factory for maybe babe is a really good example. Charlotte's web drones web where where an animal is is humanized discussion extent and given a name and can talk and and we feel do motions there with them that we've developed a connection the different kind of connection to animals that are that we eat absolutely imaginary and idealized connection would argue you. Can't you can befriends cows. And you can befriend pigs people. You know if you've worked with chickens before and you're on the audience today let us know your take on chickens. I remember in Different lifetime in a rural area. There was this. Was this one chicken in this place. I was living. That was like known as the bad chicken. Everybody in this community like new there. Is this chicken that was just toll. And that's the only time. I've heard of a chicken personality but i don't know every chicken. I was once chased by chicken. Didn't care for it one bit. It was like a yurt. You ever stayed at a yurt Yeah there was a year. There was a resident chicken and it chased me and my girlfriend at the time. Had to shoot away with a broomstick because as you guys know. I'm a little anti burden and it was freaking me out And chickens are so aggressive when they come out like like the way geese. Kind of come at you but It's true i mean there is sort of you know. I know people that have raised their own chickens that have their own goats that you know and the goats. They're not raising them to slaughter them. They're raising them to graze into maybe give milk or something like that and oftentimes. The chickens are just raised to give eggs. And i actually found out that if you hatch a male chicken not only. You don't want it in the hen house because then the eggs will be fertilized and get more baby chickens as opposed to eggs their total. Both like you're saying ben and you often there's others like a service of some kind that where you take your chicken and you donate it to the service and then they fight those chickens. And that's maybe that's the dark side of chicken male chicken donation the dome. I would just say you kind of similar to that. And i don't want to stick on this too long but i do have a very good friend of mine. That has several chickens and the his daughters have named the chickens and they do seem to have different personalities. And they do. I don't i. I'd like to hear from everybody listening. Just what their experiences there because they seem cool to me. I don't know yeah less far be it. I am malign chickens unfairly. they're not. They're not as intelligent as corvettes but a few few birds are so you're right those guys we see. We see these depictions in film and documentaries you might. The last time you saw a cattle might have been a brief clip in the local news on On some with some anchor taking note of aspect of the economy We encounter the remains of these animals easily every day. We see them in the local grocery store we see them in a fast food chain or in a restaurant and in the us this disassociation between the the thing you eat the thing ends up on your plate and a living thing goes even further. I mean think about it. You won't in many of the garden variety grocery stores you'll not only see a a a fairly limited type of meat right but you'll also see limited parts of those types thighs breasts chops ribs ground up flesh you might see tongue might see liver but You probably won't see is unless you go to the cool places even tongue in in liver sometimes livers more common. I think like a regular chain grocery store but tongue. That's more of a specialty thing or something. You might see like karna syria or something like that is just exactly. Yeah that's where i go. Actually go buford highway norcross. Non damon buford highways farmers market. That's amazing get there get their pre marinated toyo or like whatever else they do all they do it all themselves. And they also make fresh tortillas. They're highly recommend if anyone's ever passing through. But like i even like we're talking about the food. Prep we're all i think into cooking I might eat a tongue taco. But i don't know that i would buy a long and slice it up myself for preparation to make something that's a bridge too far for me. Personally you know. Yeah because some of that stuff's culturally is is off limits right. Yes we know it's it's fascinating because without a real concrete set of laws consequences in the us and canada and many other parts of the world cultures seem to have generated their own. Saw i i would call them. Soft taboos right. No one's no one's going to arrest you for something. They think is weird. But it's just like not done in polite society these taboos dictate which animals can be eaten. Which parts can be eaten. Reconsidered normal food so you. We said it's uncommon to see is on a menu. You might also be weirded out if you go to your local diner or your local hangout restaurant and they say hey. We have a special on. Fox's just we're out of chicken wing so it's just fox legs or yeah seriously. Brain brain is a fairly common thing in some places but it's hard to imagine it being in many places i can. You're absolutely right. ben you can get. Yeah there's like brain front forget. The name of there are different. Things exactly prions that can exist in brain. But i grew up my my grandpa ole north carolina tobacco merchant. You know That was what how he made a living when he was a young man His favorite breakfast was something called brains and eggs and i ate it blindly and thought it was delicious and only years later separated from it. Thought it was a little weird. But i definitely could buy at the grocery store and also liver pudding. Ben you an eye on the road trip. We did with With car stuff back in the day They call it scrapple in certain parts of the midwest believe or the the north west And it's literally pureed. Like fried pat tae ish substance made of liver also known as pan rabbit but mush of pork scraps. But but you're right Brain is thing things of this nature in some some places like One of my favorite restaurants shout out. I don't know if villa so the show but saint john in london. The guy fergus henderson made his name in the culinary world by taking all that stuff that people wouldn't usually eat pancreas awful sweetbreads and so and elevating it and selling it as cuisine. But that's kind of unusual and that worked that amazed people because it was an unusual thing because a lot of people in the united kingdom were now eating things that they ordinarily would not have considered consumables like a another example of soft cultural taboo. Here in the. Us is that Certain animals would never be considered food. Perish the thought. And you have offended me if you suggest that we should eat dogs or certain birds even you know what i mean In cats i would add to that list two. And we've talked about this casually on the show but it's an interesting line. It's an interesting division where it's like to your point. Matt you know we sort of The anthropomorphized these pigs through like movies and animated things like you know deer on bambi. A rabbit like rabbits okay to eat but dogs not okay to eat yet. Both are kept as pets in both are considered cute so the line is interesting and confusing to me. I'm not saying we should go horse or whatever but I know that insert asian countries. That's totally fine. So the tobu's of these things it eludes me a little bit. And then i'm like a little bit of a double standard. I'm interested to see what you guys think about them. I don't know. I think maybe you're just looked at different parts of the world historically and you know what what are considered what what animals are. What foods are considered taboo. A lot of it can can have historical religious relevance as to why. You don't eat something like let's say if you're if you live in a country that has a large number of people identifies muslim were follow. You know islam they're not gonna be eating pork. What are some other examples of that india. Very large percentage population practices hinduism. So cows are considered sacred rather than livestock interesting about those two examples in those those cultures. The animals are left kind of a loan for very different reasons in one. The animal the cow is considered sacred in a way and the other one. The big is just considered unclean and gross. It's a wrong to even mess with them. And and t to your original point about looking elsewhere in the country to for for these kind of taboos in iceland. A traditional dish is boiled. Sheep's head and you eat the whole thing The ears the is the lips. The you know all of that stuff and then in this article from the salt from npr Someone asks the individual describing this wall. Where's the brain to which they were look data with a kind of horror like ooh we would never eat the brain but the eyeballs and the lips in the face totally fine. I want to keep us on topic too long because a longtime listeners as you know The three of us can sit around and talk about food forever. Yeah as we love it. Sorry no no no. I'm sorry there's there's a what. I'm sorry in advance because there's one other thing i have to shout out. I am fascinated by a paci. It's the iranian sheep head soup and it's the it's the sheep's head with the brain just in case you're gonna ask and trotters. It's there the shop setup that only serve this soup and they're only open from like three. Am to seven. Am or something. I it's my bucket list for toronto and has nothing to do with today's show. Unless you want to send us some examples of collared body or send us examples of regional foods and your neck of the global woods that you think other people might be surprised by no judgment because again. These rules are not constant they change. You know what. I mean Horse meat is popular in some parts of europe. And it's considered taboo in many parts of the us so we can explain heart of this weird. What is not livestock phenomenon. Through a cultural lens of but then we also have to note that there are people who object to the consumption of certain animals might be a pesky -tarian no mammals for you but fisher fine or the to the consumption of all animals and there are other factors at play here aside from cultural factors and you know we we have to look at where these folks are coming from because people don't usually do stuff without some sort of internal logic so one their health concerns. You're you know you're in your mid fifties you've lived a satiated gluttonous life and your doctor says look bad you have to either break up with bacon or break up with the idea that you're gonna live to be eighty years old now. Then boom you know by heart of the same coin there is a younger person who has learned of the most recent nutritional facts or something in school or by a friend or something and then they're choosing not to do that right but for the same reasons for health reasons. The next one i would say is really the heart of this. Episode is a any emotional revulsion to the whole process or or two one part of the process or just to the thought at all Of eating an animal right. Yeah i mean no fully met. There are people who watched babe at a young age and probably decades later. Think i've could never eat pork. I loved babe. I have the blu ray. Who what kind of person would i be. I watched the pig in the city. Director's commentary once a year. In this you know. And i guess you could categorize into as revulsion at the thought of eating the animal but then the other one with. We're going to give you a little caveat here a lot of what we're gonna talk about following this moment in the episode. There's going to be cruelty to animals in here. There's gonna be inhumane conditions. We're going to discuss. There's going to be a lot of things. That's going to be unpleasant unsettling. So if you don't like that stuff or you know it's gonna trigger you trigger you for some reason. Go ahead and pause here. The other reasons people object to the cruelty that or the pain that could be involved in the process a factory farm or some other set setting where animals are raised specific lever food. Yup you're right because research proves that some of these animals can indeed experience emotional states similar to the emotional states of a human being. Like if you ever if you have a dog then you know that your dog has moves predilections and personality on cattle and pigs are are the are the same way they can experience things like grief joy pain and so on. Of course we don't want to anthropomorphized. These are not humans right but they are still mammal so the structure of their brain is similar. Which means that the traffic patterns if you want to think of neural activity that way are in a way similar. i propose we pause for a word from our sponsor. wonder who it's gonna be this time lay. There won't be and then we'll be back to examine this. I know just briefly a tad a not just said we know that sometimes people get a put off by these kind of examinations. Because the might feel like it's preachy or it might feel like we're telling you to do things but as you know that is not the job of this show and has never been the mission of this show. We want to bring you the facts and then some frightening speculation right at the end so so we'll be right back curated. By kohl's latest collection is now available in select stores and at kohls dot com for a limited time shop. Unexpected new favors like reusable drink. Wear in court sickle and arts and crafts from. Ub hito plush toys are perfect for little ones. Homesick handcrafted candles or a great gift to make anyone feel at home and who doesn't love sweet treats from candy club. Shock curated by kohl's for these digital need to know brands and more tap the banner now or visit dot com. We're back so that last point we left on the idea that some people object to the consumption of meat because they They do not feel comfortable or perhaps they don't feel ethical when they imagined that there are some way they're in some way contributing to the unnecessary pain of another living. Thinking thing is a controversial stance. Because look we've got a one side of the argument. People have chosen to minimize as much as possible their participation. what they see is animal cruelty In may in addition to abstaining from summer all types of meat they may also refuse to wear clothing from animal products. They may also say look dairy. I'm just i'm not into it. Either and dairies weird. I get it cheeses awesome but if you explained to another species what milk is the fact that we're down with it. It would be kind of weird weird. It'd be more an extraterrestrial relations. I do feel weird giving it to my son. Every morning. he wants milk. I give him milk. And i just think about it. I look at the container. And just go. Okay thinking of calcium. I know that kid is by the way folks growing at a breakneck pace to feed the engine there. But but there's you know there's another side so let's call that one extreme one extreme end of the spectrum on the other side of that spectrum they're individuals and organizations who say you know yeah this system to think of it as a system it may not be perfect but it works and some of these changes they wanna do although it might make you feel good as a person wants these changes. They're just not economically feasible. We can't instantly do this. And without wrecking the entire house of cards then you know typically people on that end of the spectrum we can roll some of these changes out slowly over a given time span but in general this. I love the guys. Think about this. In general we find that if you remove every fat every financial economic factor and you ask people what do you think about the lives. These animals then people seem on board with improving them in numbers that surprised me. Pull for very biased. Study just to be completely transparent from the aspca. Oh yeah let's let's go through. Let's go through what it found. First of all the vast majority eighty nine percent of americans are in fact concerned with the whole industry of industrial animal culture. This idea of animal cruelty Is top of mind. Their people want to make sure that animals are treated humanely also worker safety and of course another big e being public health also came up top concerns farmers who are surveyed Who participated in the survey seemed on board as well With eighty five percent of farmers and their families supporting a complete ban on new industrial animal. Culture facilities. is almost twice the level of support those expressed by the public fascinating but also makes sense since they're so close to it and those things you mentioned the top of the show ben about how this can affect their livelihood and the idea of more competition that's certainly part of it as well Eighty two percent of respondents believed that the government should mandate slower slaughter speeds to protect workers animals or public health. This one's a little confusing to me. I think we should unpack this. They're they're not talking about slow motion killing the us. Okay just making sure that would be the opposite of that. Yeah let's just torture the animals to death that would be more humane Mix plane if you don't mind. This is just me spitballing. But i'm imagining. That's killing fewer anamour animals on. Let's say daily or weekly basis or you know hourly basis just depending on the time frames of their speaking about their that makes sense that makes sense And then sixty five percent or two thirds of the public that participated reported that they believe poor worker protection and harsh. Working conditions will increase people's inhumane treatment of farm animals which also make sense. Because if you're under the gun or you feel your welfare is not being looked after Year not going be as careful and you're going to just try to get the job done as quickly as possible so you can move on then. More than half fifty seven percent believed that this mistreatment also increases health risks to the public ding ding ding. There it is so. I just real quick. The nailed on slaughter speeds. The what they're talking about is what would also be described as a line speed. It's how much how much volume are we doing per you know for processing day and they concern. There is a little bit. I would say less on the individual animal and more so on the The opportunities it raises for things to go wrong because these Of these slaughter lines especially the large industrial scale. It's like if you've seen somebody's speed running video game on twitch it's the there's not a pause you know it's just a shift there's just the shift change and of course it's horrifying if you actually watch it at that speed. Oh yeah yeah. Yeah and of course we should know. Aspca is far from a neutral source still again. There appears to be wide support with a with the statistics. You just brought his snow. There seems to be wide support in the public in general to say like. Hey if it's no skin off my back you know if it's no bacon off my burger then yeah. I don't want to torture animals. It's pretty basic a controversial stance. Correct me if i'm wrong ben. But are slaughterhouses still manually. Killing cattle with those bolt guns that we are so fond of especially when they're used As like murder weapons by sociopaths in in movies I is there like an air powered bolt gun that shoots out a large projectile through the cows brain instantly killing and then pulling it back. It depends depends on where you are right. And which factory and again that technological advancement like. Where are you on the line of the timeline of advancing. Because that part of the of the slaughterhouses called the killing floor. Which i've always found that to be a very eerie name. And i imagined if you're moving through a lot of cattle That killing floor could be absolutely soaked in blood pretty quickly. And i wonder if that's something that could cause like fall hazards or ways of you. Know perhaps being injured by some of these high powered equipped machines. I don't know like i'm wondering like how does the volume increase the danger to the employees. Yeah yeah you're absolutely right. what you're what. We're talking about there with the bolt or with a anton. Sugar is the is the mechanical method. Your stunning the animal. So there there are a number of other methods that have been used and as you said mad. It does vary from place to place a lot of places. A lot of countries have laws that extensively determine how how animals should be slaughtered or processed and those laws are i would say. Primarily centered on health concerns for humans. And it's very important thing and of course you know. This is a concept that is not new. it's not something that modern civilization came up with. Ancient religions have very specific rules about which animals can be consumed in. How and how. They should be slaughtered. And if you look back at those rules through the modern lens then you see that. They're actually their plans for good hygiene to prevent the spread of disease It's it's so vastly. That's what it's been about even some of the ancient rules that you could find in the bible about certain things to wear or eat. It was in a way in many cases a health situation. It's very strange very always wanted to read to read that Read some of those texts into modern parlance just like rewritten. To say avoiding trick. Uses verse one champion. Wa- bashes leviticus is now trigon doses. That's fascinating. I didn't realize that the bolt gun just stunned the an-and because you see it used in movies as an instant kill but it is. You're right it just goes into their forehead and typically stuns them after one hit a very rarely after two and then they're hung upside down. Their throats are slashed and their bled out. And then you now processing Commences from there may also be electrically shocked or the euro. That's it's still a stunning move. But here's a question. What exactly goes on behind the scenes. What are these animals lives lake. And what does that mean for human beings spoiler whether or not you consider yourself a meat eater whether or not you care in general out of this effect you. Here's where it gets crazy but let's gross but first let's focus on a factory farm. Let's focus on cal as a matter of fact you guys wanna style on it a little. Do we want to give this our name. No myrtle myrtle okay. So myrtle. the cow Myrtle the cow is born in a old school like think of pastoral scenes from your favorite works of historical fiction. In old school farms cow can roam free and have a normal life span of about twenty five years or so. It's not slaughtered for food. If nothing goes wrong. Cattle raised for beef. Let's say myrtle as race for beef in this situation. She is one of about forty one million cows raise this way in the us so she has pretty good odds of spending her first year on the range. Walking around in the field eating grass marine at stuff plane has cows play and then after that year myrtle enter cohort are shipped to something called concentrated. Animal feeding operation or cavo. Cfo this is what you'll you'll hear for to as a stockyard times. If you ever hear that word feed lot sometimes and you know by the way it does make a difference. If myrtle is male or female because of many times the female is going to be dealing dealing with a whole different set of issues of. It's a male. We'll talk about that too but the biggest problem at these places is overcrowding many times not always but at many factory farm operations overcrowding is the worst thing because things become unsanitary very quickly for the the the cattle and a lot of times to save money. Depending on the operation different kinds of feed will be used. Corn has been a big issue. I think we've talked about that on an episode before when we were talking about the various uses of corn. But okay yeah yeah. I know we made a video about it at some point cords it. Everything course everything before they shut the podcast out. You have to know if you travel to the us And you're not from here. You will be amazed by how many ingredient lists various products have some now of court in the mix corners everywhere. It's like It's like the kevin bacon of the cast of of an ingredient list. Anyway it's not even the good kind. It's not those sweet kernels can get in the. Can you know those delicious ones. that are in the. What is it. The creamed corn man. When i was a kid. Creamed corn creamed corn. I was a kid. 'cause you can make so many things out of especially if you were baking with it. Oh good stuff okay. Where what am i talking about the The feed the all of these things combined together in can make a pretty miserable existence for an individual animal. And then you take all of that misery together in one big place i wanted. He stockyards y- is now guys is is it true that Some more sickly cows the perhaps die before they get to the feed feedlots are destroyed and ground up and made into feed. That can be fed to other cows. Isn't that supposedly where mad cow disease came from this practice or is that just rumor stuff. Yeah it gets. It gets rough man because you know a lot of these animals are living a very challenging life and we can introduce this concept now. You know how you'll see like. Usda great a primer usd a blah blah blah. When you're in the grocery store the far end that is what's called four deep meat meat from animals that are dead or they're disabled upon their arrival at the slaughterhouse. And they end up you might see their their bodies concerned not fit for human consumption but they the end up in pet food right or they're rendered or they're used to feed animals in zoos and things like that for sure and after doing a little more research It does appear that the mad cow disease or bovine spongiform encephalopathy or bse. I involved the feeding of cattle parts to cattle and it did lead to some restrictions on which parts of cattle can be fed back to cattle but there is still some of that happening things like hooves ground up bone and other. You know remnant parts from because they don't wanna waste anything but yeah that is a thing and that's predicting that's a good idea. Let's let's worst urban warriors to consume themselves. That's great not only is it. cannibalism. It's not something that would ever eat in the wild. It's an herb loose -sorts yeah well okay. So let's look okay so back to myrtle it. Myrtle is a beef cow. There are two things happen. If myrtle is whether or not myrtle is male or female. She's going to get an. Id tag popped inner ear. That makes sense. Everybody's seen that. I if she's mailed then her test scores will be removed. Her horns gouged out. This occurs without anesthesia. it's a cost cutting measure and like you said the the main problem here is the intensely crowded conditions. This is a perfect storm for bacteria and infections and to combat that cows are injected with heavy doses of antibiotics as well as hormones. The entire goal of these injections is to keep the animals relatively healthy and to ensure that they can survive up until the time of their slaughter. This is going to be important later. Does remember that part. I think you know if you heard episode one. You know where we're going so now to to the slaughterhouse. Not the eminem sponsored hip hop group. Which i think is pretty good The actual slaughterhouse where the cattle meet their ed. So after leaving that feedlots or stockyard or cafo The callard then shipped to the slaughter houses In technically only the animals that are able to walk to their own slaughter are in fact. slaughtered cattle. That are too weak. Or who aren't able to get up our euthanize so they do not reach the food. Production process That could be for various reasons. Because they're too they're not. They're not beefy enough to make beef or they could be sickly There's there's you know they don't wanna introduce that into the food supply chain however each animal This is something that you know. We think about The business of this each individual animal represents money represents a dollar amount financial investment to various people stakeholders along via the supply chain So these animals may be prodded to stand. Upright and forced to stagger into the slaughterhouse despite not being fit for consumption and if they can't make it they may be just left for dead. that's myrtles life as a cow raised for beef. But let's say. Myrtle is a cow raised for dairy. Once like they're well she will be kept in indoor facilities She'll be fed and watered. She will not go outside to graze. there is a mechanical process. Used to remove her urine feces The milk from her others is removed by machines to the of course Her tail will be docked so that it's easier for a dairy workers to hook up the machines and this. This surgery is also without the use of anesthesia studies. Show that it does. It doesn't use lasting chronic paying. Just run through the last one. The last one of the last possibilities veal. Let's say myrtle is a particularly unlucky. Male calf myrtle. The the mail. Myrtle will be taken from the mother either at birth or within the first twenty four hours or so pleased in. What's called a veal crate. Veal crate is about twenty two inches wide about fifty eight inches long They will spend their entire lives there. chained up in the crate because the whole thing about veal is restricting movement. The animal right because the more tender right that's correct and kept in near total darkness and then slaughtered approximately eighteen to twenty weeks. It reminds me of the scene. In american gods where you see. A child raised in darkness with no interaction and then eventually when they are brought forth they are Killed in a sacrifice and that show's coming back. actually. I've been seeing promos for it. Got picked up by another network. I think it was on stars and the got cancelled and now it appears to be back. I can't recall which network. It's on but glad to see that. Because i thought that was very well done. Obviously big fans of the book as well So what does this mean. What does all this amount to in terms of how one should view the food production process. Is it safe. is it humane like what. Where does this leave us. We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor what do explorers an army officer at a minnesota insurance salesman have in common. They all wanted to be the first to reach the north pole but only one of them made. I'm cat long signs editor at mental floss and host of the new podcast. The quest for the north pole which dive into the centuries-long brace to explore the arctic. Find the northwest passage and conquer the top of the world with a cast of daring adventurers. And some pretty determined amateurs the race to the poll reveals the human desire to solve mysteries of geography and the soul. We'll look at the important arctic expeditions that filled the blank spaces on the map and recognize how indigenous people made them. Successful will examine what pushed explorers to venture ever farther into the unknown. Uncharted and how the climate crisis is changing the arctic. Today listen to the quest for the pole. 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Follow on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. We're back we're back. And we don't want to be sanctimonious we ought to be preachy. Because honestly that doesn't that doesn't change stuff in my opinion. The facts are this. Obviously this is not the kind of life. Myrtle or any animal would choose unless it was particularly disturbed cow. If had the choice it would be. Like no i don. I don't wanna do this. I wanna be veal crate and get your weird machine away for my daughters and given the opportunity most individual humans would rather avoid causing unnecessary paid much as the cows but like other living things. We're not a species that in general just gets off on walking by and like kick puppies you know. We think we'd like we think highly of ourselves in that regard and when we are giving the opportunity we like to think that we're people who would just rather not needlessly injure someone else but again we are talking about people's livelihoods. There are people listening right now. Who know that. A huge part of the economy depends on the livestock industry and yet. It's incredibly tempting to get sanctimonious about the unsafe and cruel practices a factory for me while ignoring the fact that millions of people need these jobs but at some point it also becomes impossible for us to ignore the knock on or the fallout effects. That these practices can have not just on animals but on humans at the other end of the supply chain. Even if you do not eat meat this affects you. I mean. I guess i will talk about the animals right. How how they feel. I i think no one asked them if they wanted to do this. The very true for the animal. It's terrible Since since we know as we talked about before they can experience some emotional states some cognitive states that humans can that you can Then going through any all of this process is going be horrifying. Even if it's the only thing you know right even just in that cattle situation with one of these little veal calves. The only thing you've ever known as you're born you're put into this thing. This is all you know but you are. Never you never experience a lot of the things that you could potentially. Experience has a cow. I mean it's it's pretty horrifying again. All you have to do is put yourself in that situation for a moment or just think about it for a second. If it was you doing it what would it be like and you can tell just how bad this really could be or in is the other thing is if you are a cow especially the villain you. You don't understand what the government policies are for your local state where you just happen to be born or you know the county where you're in or even the country that you're in it doesn't understand the profit motive of whatever big factory farm in which you find yourself it doesn't understand a great number of things and it can't in it's just stuck in. That situation is true and this. I think this is pretty obvious right. I don't i don't think anybody is functioning under an illusion otherwise but one piece of this that a lot of people have missed one aspect where vs cost cutting methods where these this endless race to become more efficient at lower price points. There is one huge point where this this can end up costing us as a species. A great deal. This is where the rubber or the hoofs. I guess hit the road. There is danger to the public. We touched on this briefly in our previous episode. But let's dive deeper because a lot of people are listening asking us. Well okay bill. Fight get it. Livestock industries not perfect. What is an how on. Earth is the livestock industry of all things a public health risk. I mean come on guys. That's that's kind of wild will show you. I also would have accepted where the trotters meet the track would have been. Also we're the tails meet the turnpike. Indeed so let's take it from a public health perspective from none other than atlanta's owned centers for disease control More than two million illnesses. They say an estimated twenty three thousand deaths. Each year are the result of antibiotic resistance We've talked about something like these ideas of superbugs and that largely stems from the overuse of antibiotics are food that we antibiotic resistance in animals occurs when consumed to antibiotics and drug resistant bacteria in their stomachs that are then or can be passed on from animals to humans a handful of conditions. The biggest one is is if you don't eat meat at a proper temperature. If it hasn't been cooked fully another thermometer folks get a meat thermometer. don't eyeball it. don't leave anything to chance. Meat thermometer gilliam. Oh controlling totally gets a good. It's a good opportunity to get a gadget who doesn't love a good gadget and this. Yeah this all comes. Public health risk all comes down to drugs factor. You can talk about you. Talk about The four station as well. Maybe that's something for another episode because that's about much more than the livestock industry and attacks on climate climate change. But yeah. i know you're right. Twenty thirteen more than one hundred thirty. One thousand tons of antibiotics used on food animals food animals is just. The vague description for stuff is raised to be by twenty thirty. This will rise to more than an estimated two hundred thousand tonnes a year of the the stuff. We're talking about these antibiotics to be specific. Are like tetracyclene tyler. Bassett and eh through mayan. Just just to give you the specifics there. There's a lot of back and forth with government approval of these things in different countries The eu and the us are forever in a in an argument about importing food created in the us because of these antibody and hormone injection practices. What happens what happens. You're you're exposed the whole time. That myrtle is living out a miserable existence She is also home to a new kind of bacterial. Life is not vulnerable to the same antibiotics that killed its predecessors it spreads it grows and just like myrtle. It doesn't really see the larger picture. It's not aware of ngos it. I guess it may be Is aware of antibiotics. Because it successfully whips their asses but it carries on. Its merry little way. And once it reaches human beings through you know improperly cooked meat through contamination of feces. Something like that people can acquire this and once people wire this stuff like ovid. Nineteen right once people. Acquire this stuff. Then will the anachronistic phrase would be. It's katie bar the door because this stuff can spread so quickly and you don't have to eat meat therefore to be infected in twenty thirteen. In fact year we pulled some of this other info from researchers showed that you could be thirty percent more likely to get specific bacterial infections. Just by living near pig farms or living your crops that were fertilized with pig manure you thirty percent higher. Likelihood of becoming infected with staphylococcus aureus bacteria which is resistant to some antibodies. And we are in no way prepared by for this by the by. We're not ready. Then that's right and isha for rookie who a infectious disease specialist Says that humanity just isn't prepared for what might be down. The row with humanity is not prepared for a pandemic situation that's surprising Yeah and she says that we have very few new. Antibiotics being introduced and manufactured when compared to the emergence of resistant bacteria or germs She goes on to say if this situation is not well controlled now. We may lose this battle between germs antibiotics. Which could lead us to a crisis situation where we may not have any antibiotics left to combat resistant bacteria and it's a little different but like for example with the current covid nineteen situation. We have this vaccine now but we now know that there is a new strain of it that could be more resistant to the back of the vaccine that they've been working long and hard to create for the one that we knew about so. This isn't exactly the same as mutating. I mean it is. I guess ben right like is becoming resistant to antibiotics similar to mutating or is it literally just kind of developing a tolerance to lead the drugs that could. Actually you know eradicate it did. That would be a a mutation. Yes i gaining a resistance to something like that. Yeah we're this is. This is definitely worse. Case like its worst case scenario. But it's something that we can see happening if we continue down the route. Yeah yeah yeah well said it's it's worse it's a worst case scenario but we're in like a store that sells the worst cases. You know the war's cases as seen on tv store. Louis suitcases handle love. It was a pandemic and other win is starvation and then gamma ray. You're talking about a sharper image. Excuse me here we go. yeah So you're right. We are not ready And there's not a clear answer as how we can effectively prepare for this stuff. It's spooky and it's you know i'll be honest with it's more than a little bit disappointing and depressing like what this is. How the world ends not with a bang but with a cow bug spare me where the explosions. Where the book of revelation stuff. We're were promised. That's that's coming to. That is coming and guys. What do you think about the way you know. This corona virus pandemic and the politicisation of it has sort of reduced Faith i guess in experts like the cdc in experts. Like you know dr fauci or whatever who have been saying one thing all along and because it's been politicized i think there's a polarization against science and now it's gonna take the cdc some time to kind of claw back that credibility is that setting us back even further to help us prevent something like this. Political acumen and scientific talent are two very different skill sets. That's the i think that's one of the big issues you can have. You can have the up to date research. You can have the facts but if you do not if you do not know how to communicate effectively than you are shouting into the void. That's just the reality not being on the politicians or on the scientists but the site the science is there. I could see i can see some polarization. I could see it be more difficult. I would also say a superbug emerged this way. The first thing that would happen would be a very intense game of hot pandemic potato where we saw with goat wear and other actors and countries and individuals are trying to assign blame on someone who is not them. That's that's a very brutal short way to explain it but those immediately what would happen and you know this if he came from a large corporation of some sort is active in the livestock industry and we talked about some of the biggest ones in our previous episode. then they would. They would have to take accountability that be forced by the by the government of a given country to do so. But it wouldn't solve the problem at all blake right now. It might sound like we're making Were making a big deal about some old beans here but but You might say hey. We'll sure guys. The potential is troubling. But this is all still a hypothetical so the whole horses pump your brakes However the answer is no this is not hypothetical. This has happened. This is happening now as he listened to this. I don't know why. I'm smiling like this. I think it's it's it's a reaction to to the very bad news. Twenty nineteen saw a rise in superbug hotspots directly associated with farms. No circumstantial or you know statistical likelihood dithering arguments about it. It is a direct one connection with farms the researchers for the various studies indicating this They do have some skin in the game. The beacon in the pan here because Their argument is ultimately that this can be traced back to what they call over consumption of meat. And you know we're very in this country. We're very ron swanson about like we'll tell you when it's enough bacon senior back. The day i mean meet was a treat. It was something like you know as like a special occasion kind of thing and because of factory farming. We've sort of like stripped it of that kind of special occasion feel and people eat it for every meal. And you know whether you believe in the science biden iran. I think we can all probably agree. That eating red meat for every meal is probably not the best thing for our bodies and our diets as human beings right. it's true. Think of the so-called blue spots. Those are a handful of various in the world where in people tend to live to and past one hundred years old at an like a shocking degree in comparison to adjacent regions there are a number of factors that are traced to this and one of them is their diet. their diet does appear to be Less based on on meet in general red meat especially so. It's so it's a health concern. I don't think that's being preachy. That's that's a health concern. But if you if you look at what's happening with global economy and you look at how it changes individual consumption habits then you see in parts of the developing world People who are doing better financially than perhaps their parents did or than perhaps they did earlier in life. They are eating meat more often. Like you said no. We're talking about northeast. India northeast china The red river delta in vietnam. Those are hot spots for superbugs on the asian continent and then there are places like in johannesburg that are also affected. This is hitting hitting everybody. Because everybody's kinda doing the same thing can resume and they're trying to make more of it as fast as a candidate as cheaply as possible and She just tell them the real real consequences. Ben let's get started here. Here's a study in science. Came out not that long ago and i. It was looking at global trends and antimicrobial resistance in animals within low and middle income countries. And my god this is something we've mentioned on this show before. But this number is staggering. It is estimated that around seventy three percent of all antimicrobials that are sold on earth that are used on. This planet are not for humans when a human gets sick or something and needs to get healed because we have this magic thing called an anti microbial. An antibiotic seventy three percent are used on animals for food. Seventy three percent worldwide. And we just talked about how that practice right there of using the antibiotics on animals rather than you know a human who has gotten sick. Is the problem snark. Good no no. It is double plus un good as orwell would say beyond the potentially serious consequences for public health. This reliance on antibiotics to meet the demand for for meat to to meet the meet demand. Anyway sorry hominem got you gotta meet out that meeting demand the moment where you see that hamburger The the problem is this is also a threat bite. Likely to the sustainability of the livestock industry. This could wreck the ship in. That would mean that. It is a danger to the livelihood of farmers around the world and people associated with this industry. The scientists in these studies do leave a little bit of light at the end of the slaughterhouse. Tunnel by saying there's a window of opportunity to nip this in the bide to prevent the rise of very real potentially publ superbugs The stakes are high. Uk former chief. Medical officer sally davies said that is one of the greatest threats the modern world faces and the thing is even though scientists. Even even people are largely on the same page about this. They're not really agreeing on how to approach it out to fix it. Because it's a global problem These diseases will not recognize rule of law. There have a passport. They don't care about customs so one country's laws alone no matter what they are. They don't really fix this. You can legislate all you want in the us. But that's not going to change the fact that china and india are home to more than half the world's pigs and chickens and therefore it's up to those governments and those companies to try to try their own solution to the problem so At this point with the end of the episode we gotta we gotta talk. What are what are the solutions. There's a good case that the secret of the livestock industry is that it may be paving the way for a super buck. that's that's a one sentence takeaway but the solutions. I don't know man there. They seem pretty piecemeal. You would have to have a lot of coordination and it's almost a big brother situation to address this. Oh yeah and and we didn't even get to in this episode. And i'm going to propose that we do another follow up to this not necessarily secrets of the livestock industry but about animal activism and and the varying groups that are trying to do something of varying sizes and some have been around for a long time just now forming and they're taking different steps. One that i really wanna to focus on. And i'd love to put out a call to anyone who who's listening to this if you if you're familiar with d. x. e. to a group called have been reading a lot about them doing a lot of research on that particular group and the actions that they take and it is it is interesting to see how the varying levels of extremity or the extremes that people are willing to go to to try and prevent this from happening because it can be at the individual level right just decided to stop eating meat but how the heck does that one individual change the system unless you get billions of people to decide that right now do you make it worth worth their time also is it. Is it ethical as a governing body or a ruler of some sort and authority is it ethical to tell people what they can and cannot eat. And how much they can consume remember. How new york went nuts when there was that there was that regulation to reduce the maximum size of the sodas sodas or something sugary drink. People went wild. People would never even drink that stuff for like. Don't tread on me. How dare you imagine that problem on a macro worldwide level there. There's also so calling for people to eat less meat. That's one of the things. The studies propose but they also propose other things like what if we put a hard cap on the amount of antibiotics that can be used in some way. Right we make some kind of metric for that and it is becoming popular in a lot of places if you have the amount amount of wealth to support it to support farms that. Don't use a lot of the practices that we've outlined in this episode. Today that you know do allow cattle to just graze in rome and art hooked up you know in the ways we've discussed here same thing with chickens and pigs and that's becoming a popular thing but you have to have a certain level of wealth in order to support that lifestyle And then there are still also serious questions about you know intentions aside. How much of an impact is that making an. How legit are the claims from those producers. Yes it's true i mean. Are there a cows in japan fed beer and they get massages. Their life is dope until they get killed. But but you're right. There's not there's not a single thing. There there are a number of financial incentives proposed or carrot and stick kind of things where they say okay. Why don't we just have higher taxes on animal products just like in the last episode where we said how much cost and we found some really weird calculations would that disincentivize people. Maybe but then there's something a little more insidious something something a little. You know dr evil the pinky to the mouth about it. What if we hide the costs in the supply chain even deeper and we tax the antibiotics Stinks for the farmers. Just you'd have way more cows in much more distress and sick right. That's that's all you'd get out of that there'd be fewer antibiotics used by factory farms You know that's a good point. We don't know how that would go because that hasn't been put into action. It's all a matter of theory but these will these strategies work. What do you guys think i mean. Should people institute these because make no mistake like this is. This is not right now. This is not a what if situation. This is a win. is it going down situation. Yeah i mean it's one of those things where it's like. You know people want what they want and what people want is lots of meat. Unfortunately and until the demand goes down. It's gonna be a hard sell to say you have to change your habits for the greater good Because american particular people don't really go for that very often in. How is the first questions like. Why am i taking the hit. If vitals anybody else doing it you know what i mean. So would have to be a worldwide adoption. Do we need for people who wants this stuff to happen. Do we need to have like a modern. Edward as waging a campaign to change the hearts and the minds of the medium public should also point out by the way folks that Michigan troll matt. Nola myself are on divorce so we're eating meat to Where we're aware of this but we're also aware that they're there does appear to be some kind of ticking clock toward the potential. For something disastrous. you know. We can't predict when that would occur. We can't predict the level of impact it would make but it's not looking good so we. Yeah yeah my wife just texted me and said what do you want from grind house burger. Nice I don't think want anything right now from there. Also you know arguably carpe diem. I remember we talked about the collapse of the maritime ecology her ecosystems and ocean acidification. Real what they call the south. Come to jesus moment when myself. No is a horrible person. About and i was like well if the next generations of human beings are not gonna be able to eat some of these fish like. Maybe i don't know it's it's terrible but that's i mean it's kind of a curb your enthusiasm moment but it's something that we're all going through on a daily basis. We want to know your thoughts. Should there be some authority given the power to mandate changes. I think that's kind of dangerous personally. Is where it is power. Stop answers it usually doesn't But then also is this are people being alarmist about this If you were to propose solutions what would those solutions be. We want to hear from you. We try to make it easy to find us. And i agree with you. I think there's a there's more to be said about this in the future. Yeah we will do that so hey contact us. We are conspiracy stuff on twitter and facebook on instagram. We are conspiracy stuff show. We also have individual instagram's say mine today. Matt underscore frederick nope matt frederick underscore iheart. That's it the underscores in there somewhere to figure out where it's like a puzzle box type it out you have to underscore exactly You can find me on instagram exclusively. Where i am at how now. Noel brown denzel all over the internet man. Yeah for now feel free to reach out to me. Directly app bullen each s w on twitter. You can also reach me at them bowling on instagram Just know what's your mind. Topics upcoming shows off memes five. Yeah we always love to hear from you. You're the most important part of the show. Hey dan if you're still listening the show or cash or anybody else if you have clubhouse and you're one of the cool people that's already in there hit us up. We're interested in exploring you can find me on clubhouse to your so jealous i look. I know we're running long. Paul's going to kill us here. But i'm on the fence with it right now. I don't know whether it is going to be a flash in the pan whether it's going to be a very popular good thing or whether it's going to be a very bad thing 'cause there i hang out right So like we could extensively do stuff. They don't want you to know of some sort on it and Yes yes we could. We'll invite the show ben Yeah let us let us know what you think about that too. I'm a little bit. i i feel like i'm over thinking it but there's how how do you moderate hate speech. How do moderate extremism on an ephemeral audio app and times with the with the people who are being nice and the other one's the ignore air we go If you don't care for social media you can give us a phone call directly. Were one eight three. Three s t. Dwi k. of three minutes. Those are your minutes. Tell us what's on your mind recommend a topic. You think your fellow listeners will enjoy let us know if we can use your name and or voice on air and be warned. folks are just. Don't warn be aware that there's a possibility you might get a call back from one of us or the creamed corn kid himself. I was in that whole time. Oh okay yeah cream. Corn is coming for you. Watch out reminds me clean peaks. Fire walk with me. Where like the the little guy talking about cream corn and there's a scene in the movie where there is a creepy little kid in a mask next to the cr- cream core. I don't remember. But i think of him as the cream corn kid and i'll never really get that image out of my head but Yeah cream is good. I stand by If you know what you an stuff get in touch with the old fashioned way. Just send us a good old email. We are conspiracy at iheartradio dot com Stuff they don't want you to know is a production of iheartradio for more podcasts. 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