19 Episode results for "Saddam Hussein"

What Was Saddam Hussein Thinking?

FP's The Editor's Roundtable (The E.R.)

43:31 min | 2 months ago

What Was Saddam Hussein Thinking?

"Hello listeners i'm aiming mckinnon national security reporter at foreign policy and this is foreign policy playlist each week. We help you. Make sense of the crazy number of podcasts out there by recommending one podcast from somewhere around the world and this week featuring genres hindsight docudrama podcast that reenact historical events from the perspective of the most famous and infamous characters. The show is narrated by the actor. Charles dance who if like me. You're a huge fan of the crown you'll know played lord mountbatten. I want to highlight the hindsight episode. Saddam hussein titan and tyrant the tells the story of the former iraqi president from his upbringing on the banks of the tv's river to twenty four years as president of iraq and his eventual trial for crimes against humanity. What makes these. Podcasts really interesting is that it's not based just on interviews and archive sound but rather the entire episode is told in. First person by actor retails events from saddam's point of view. Joanne melody free. Us is the executive producer of podcasts. At al jazeera spoke with f. b. playlist. Tell us more about the episode. And how the series came to be. The concept itself came from our podcast team in arabic. They have a similar series called romeo's and sitting around in the room with a colleague of mine. Who's on about this great podcast and all these different characters they have. And oh my god we got the actor had a thresh and i said who who the characters who you talking about and he starts these names and anna here. Saddam hussein martin. Why are we doing this in english. Why aren't we serving the english audience. Stories people from the region and especially with el-jazeera and our contacts on our access and just really the wealth of knowledge that we have in our network thought it was a great opportunity to to bring these stories to life. You know to to re engage the audience and it was tricky to tell a story you know. How do you get into the head of someone. Who's no longer here so you can ask him. Direct questions is of course a lot of recorded interviews that we went through literature inspect people who covered the wars had been in iraq for many years needed. Something else in so Over my my computer and just threw it out there into the room and as my calling. Swipe does anyone know anyone who duke saddam hussein and sure enough. A colleague karim stood up and said well yes. I know his former personal translator so sure where is he. Oh he's just request the way he works for. A desirable now is a translator. But right let's go. Then that's going to have a chat with him and extraordinary sitting there listening to him talking about this man with admiration and talking about how saddam hussein was just in his injustice. Didn't go after anyone who didn't go after him verse. None of us sitting there trying to defend saddam but this this concept of justin his injustice just really struck me at how divisive characterized how people loathed and you know admired him you know saddam hussein who's ultimately convicted and hanged in the shell massacre. Here's the mass murder of one hundred and forty eight civilians on also known for his prussian of kurdish people tend to the transit and i said but not to be rude. But it's extraordinary that you feel this way given that you are kurdish. Then he just looks at me and go on to tell more stories about saddam hussein that we put into the podcast. that was john melody freeze. I'm here now. Is the episode. Saddam hussein titan and tyrant from al jazeera. Ever wonder what history's most famous and infamous people say if you ask them for their side of the story this is it. You're listening to hindsight a new podcast by aljazeera. I'm charles dance. This is dramatized series based on historical events. Resurrect some of the world's most memorable figures you've heard often but now it's time to hear from them. Attention turned to iraq today as the trial of saddam hussein towards figures stepped. The former dictator is now on trial in. Some officials are already saying that he could face the death penalty as two thousand five. All around the world people are glued to their televisions. It's an historic event. Perhaps the first time ever that an arab leader is publicly indicted for war. Crimes viewers watch with almost morbid fascination as former iraqi ruler saddam. Hussein stands trial on charges of mass murderer. It's the culmination of his. Near quarter of a century rule over iraq saddam arrives in the courtroom in iraq's capital impeccably groomed wearing a tailored suit. He's black beer turning white. He looks gaunt but alert confident. Even calm when asked to confirm his identity to the court he snaps back at the judge. My name you don't know my net seriously. Why would the honorable judge asked me who i am. Come on with a stupid question. Who doesn't know who i am. Saddam is sixty eight years old in one year. He'll be dead. In this episode of hindsight we hear from saddam hussein who refuses to identify himself during his trial or to recognize the authority of the court leaving himself to be the one. True ruler of iraq was he delusional tyrannical mastermind or a well-meaning countryman whose convictions led him to a life of militant nationalism. This is the story of his life. Based on documented events on his own words. Someone turned down. The aclu stemmed from my back. I want to feel like it's summer in iraq hoc. I bet you couldn't wait for that news to be wrapped around my neck. Oh and in case you about to ask like damn judge. I m saddam hussein and majid's president of the republic of iraq. You can write that down. I've been lies and lies told about me. Now it's my turn to my story my real story. I'm not the dictator my enemies and the media accused me of being the first thing that you should know. My conscience is clear before me. Iraq was drowning and poverty illiteracy and end two screws. After i came to power flushed our economy was strong. Our society was sort of our military was powerful. I was feared by all on enemies. And i rose to power against old arts. Maybe you're doing a harsh. Our lives were my hometown. Allowed you when i was a child. If you can even call them lives was more like we were waiting to diet. Do you even know where i'll is. I didn't think so. It's a tiny village on the western bank of the tigris one hundred and sixty kilometers north of by that was the birthplace of my misery. Also might greatest in spanish in nineteen fifty seven when i was born. The village had nothing. No drinking water or electricity nor roads or schools or houses were paychecks. My father was a poor shepherd. Or so i'm told i never met disappeared before i was born. I also have the brother who died of cancer before i was born. My mother could barely contain survivor. Grief i survived of course despite the odds. That's what my name means so dumb. The one who confronts mother remarried the man and abrahim hassle. When i was a small child they have three sons together. My half brothers were probably the only good thing that came from that. My stepfather never accept me. He beat me humiliated me when my mother tried to protect me. It'd be turtle refused to let me go to school instead. He made me sell watermelons on the train to feed his family. Made sure never had the childhood. By the time. I was ten years old. I couldn't take it anymore now. I left home to live with my uncle and never looked back. My uncle was a devout sunni muslim and nationalist and a veteran instead of beating me he educated me. He showed me how flawed the monarchy was. I'm hope western imperialism ravaged country and he was the reason. I finally got to go to school when i finished. I tried to enter the military academy but they rejected me so i got into politics. I joined the local sector of the pan arab socialist party bath and that was just when things started heating up from a military coup and mob revolt in iraq. Don king pipo from the phone. You don't go to fifty eight to the monarchy's and the upper crust they assassinated king face the second one and other members of the royal family right there in the court gut on the palace also. That's one good way to ensure that won't be any heirs was finally a republic brigadier and colonel to salama if let that revolution. I had such high hopes for what they would bring to your rock. But i wasn't excited to long. After they go through the device sims ego well it got out to control monopolize power and they want to hear anything against what he thought was right. He became everything he promised to purge from our country it but he would pay for it. The party recruited me to join the assassination squads to end pass route. I was the only one they trusted to carry out. Following trackers movements day and night day and night. He waited out in an apartment on sheets to beat the cross from the ministry of defence building. Came and went to me gets out then. It was perfect. I'll handle it okay. I'll call them myself on the day. We finally got our trump's. We approach us from motorcade. I hit my gun on their michael and we waited for scott get closer. My men khuda driving i. I saw talkable. Look that was shocking. Vinick around got out of are some summation attempt was october. The seventh nineteen fifty nine. It was a disaster saddam. Only nick qasim in the arm. He came out of the ambush more injured than his target. It was a deeply personal. Disappointment about mission forced saddam underground exposed as an assassin and a bad bone of that era was no longer in a safe place for him. Saddam escaped to syria for three months before fleeing to egypt. It was a smart move back in baghdad. seven of saddam's men were captured and sentenced to death. Cairo was a turning point for me. Became engaged to my first cousin. Szeged the door. She would give me two sons today and and three daughters cards rana and todd in nineteen sixty two. I began to study law. I loved higher education. I was always a voracious reader. But i had a bigger more important cooling. I was twenty four. When i dropped out to commit myself fully to the bath i soon found out. I had been sentenced to death and that for the attempted coup against essence. So it wasn't going back to iraq anytime soon would be the man who inspired my bath. Part in iraq was also had that with costumes. Hypocrisy and betrayal see classroom. Went back on the promise to include iraq in the pan arab republic so the price on my head only made me look more impressive to my hero. Egypt's president command optimus mouse. I met nassir at about this club in cairo. President so monitor to meet you sir. The msci told me to take back power in iraq and make my homeland great. Saddam had a long fascination with nasa and as rulers they would share similar qualities charismatic and persuasive. Both would also be accused of human rights violations and of using military force against their own people as a closed source to saddam. Wants put it. He was just in his injustice. If you would against him he was against you. As saddam learned from optum nasa the political situation in iraq escalated to give him the chance to take those teachings backhoe qasim who put the death sentence out on saddam's head was overthrown by a mound who would succeed west. saddam failed at hudson. I'll backer baca. And his cohorts executed qasem. After a quick tribunal. They shot him like the traitors. Dog was just salama out of the presidency. My old cousin. That'll buck became prime minister. And they're all other at carpenter me to come home. Made me a member of the security detail for the buffs party. We made people respect the party. I learned how to make people talk. So i want you to do this. We need to know. I already know books. There was a power struggle at the top. I'd have had the presidency but that more popular so it was off to go. My cousin thrusted me to run. The coup protozoan covered. I was arrested and sentenced to prison. Saddam was behind bars from nine hundred sixty four until nineteen sixty six. The failed assassination attempt and prison time would benefit him in the long run. Prison is where the foundations of saddam's political success were planted. He became more deeply involved for the ba'ath party from behind bars and built a strong bond with our baco. The outside alberta would later become leader of the iraq wing of the baath party so when saddam broke out of prison. He cashed in on that bond and became much more than a gun for hire. I escaped of some sympathetic guts. Face strange in all corners society. God was on our side because obviously them. I'd if died in a helicopter crash. The prime minister stepped in to try and fill his shoes. But the only lasted a few days before i'd have some other man claimed the presidency but he wouldn't last long either. It was week on sitting of the man was easy. We took over the palace while he was sleeping. We integrate to inform your. You're no longer than that if i do. Fled to turkey and left the men's work for us with the bucket. No president i had my first taste of real power. He promoted me head of security. I showed my talents. Prove my worth in no time. I became vice-president not bad for thirty one year old. I was uncharted protecting our party against the invasions by shiite radicals and could separatists. I cut it unprecedented projects to build mike great nation. I cease bowel richest natural resource oil. I created free mandatory education programs for children. I raised literacy levels across the country. I introduced one of the most modern public healthcare systems in the middle east. I also want an award from unesco yes unesco for wiping out. Illiteracy in iraq received this award. You think a bad guy with worked so hard to give his country or of that it's to saddam did dual those things to develop iraq and he did win the unesco award. But here's what saddam's not telling you while he was building hospitals and schools he also launched the country's first chemical weapons program he developed extreme anxiety of a coors and the sassy nation attempts and built a powerful security for surround himself with members of the baathist parliamentary The people's army. He started his security detail to crush any dissent with torture rape and murder. Saddam was very powerful. But that was about to be threatened and this is red. It all changed for him. And the people of iraq by nine hundred seventy nine. How backer was making moves to unite baath party members in iraq and syria which would mean saddam's position would be handed off to assyrian in half as our assets review. He wasn't going to let that happen. The official record is our bacher became sick and handed power over to saddam. It's too that i'll backup was getting old. But he didn't hand over power due to illness on. Common version of how he succeeded is that saddam and his loyalists encouraged to step down. On july. the sixteenth nineteen seventy-nine. Saddam hussein became the president of iraq. My first order of business was to clean house once i took power. I gather dole rebel leaders together about that. I told them i spies conspirators and no one's coming spirits are many but the a short i would to the end to look at each other in denial when i read the list of asset sympathizers out loud job as each manager. He was escorted outside the one by one. All the traitors shots. I have to cleanse the ranks and show everyone the price of disturbed. Get out get out. Loyalty leader as the demand for telemedicine grows so does the need for connecting five g meets that meet. Qualcomm remains focused on giving doctors and patients superior security rich five g. Connectivity learn more at qualcomm dot com slash invention age. I was just getting started as president. When i'll me for many took over around shah started to plan and islamic revolution have to understand who nannies. Takeover wasn't just bad news for me. A lot of others wanted to stop him. The kuwaitis saudis and the americans to homini was liberty took advantage of our national diversity. His game plan was to rally and kudish remedies in iraq. To turn against me. I did with any great leader and defender of nations would do. I is the best form of defence we fought for eight years. I cut it on the knees and the arms and the neck. I would destroy anyone who defied my rule do this sunni shia or kurdish of course my enemies cry genocide for what happened in malaysia. But what do they know. Saddam's regime claimed that iran was responsible for the attack but what happened in our lab was an opportunistic play. It was a mission to eradicate kurdish populations in northern iraq. The attacks involved in chemical weapons including mustard gas on civilian populations saddam's column ali. Hassan on my gede was in charge of that. You might remember him as chemical ali an estimated. Five thousand kurtz mostly women and children were killed. The attacks and saddam the name butchered of bhakta. It was one massacre in a long dawn out. Unsuccessful war with iran the despite saddam's claims victory ended in a stalemate after eight years now they left iraq in crippling debt. Saddam owed billions to botha kuwaitis and saudis for their support and by the wolves over. Saddam was shocked when his neighbors asked for their money. Back we told the kuwaitis and sorrow these guys. I sacrificed on my fortune. To protect you to those kuwaitis that oil wells were generating trillions. And did you know. They share that precious of romania. Oilfield with our border. I'm not blind while i'm busy. Protecting the entire region from iran kuwait stepping into our oil reserves and. I called them on it at the arab summit and by that in nineteen ninety. What do they do oversell. Oil shares on purpose. So that prices drop and i'm forced to stay in debt was economic warfare. They wouldn't forgive our debts even after they got rich off our backs saddam's dispute with qa. Did not go unnoticed. In the united states by july the twenty five thousand nine hundred ninety george h w bush is in office his ambassador to iraq april glaspie meets with members of the iraqi high command in the spirit of friendship not confrontation she asked by. Iraqi troops had started swarming near the border with kuwait but she also emphasizes. America has no opinion. On these our to our relations it would later be debated if saddam took this exchange as approval on august. The second nine hundred and ninety iraq's military forces than the largest in the middle east invaded kuwait sparking an international crisis. Everyone wanted a piece of iraq. No one has the guts to take us on alot. That's how powerful and feared we were. The coalition against us was the largest. One assembled since world war two dawn. Tell me that's not the impression. Saddam certainly had the full attention of the us and the international community. He was ordered to withdraw his forces from kuwait. By january the fifteenth nineteen ninety-one. Saddam refused operation. Desert stole took full effect two days later with an aerial and naval bombardment. That went on for five weeks on television images from the front lines of the gulf war dominated american media networks and emerging network called. Cnn gained popularity as the only network providing round the clock coverage new satellite and night vision. Technology gave people up close wartime images for the very first time it was referred to as the video game war off any arab. I'm they'll agree with me. Nobody asked the americans to get involved in our business. That's when everybody in the so-called international community got really desperate imposed sanctions the sanctions on us. But i refuse to let them see me sweat. I kept all my palace operating moving from one place to the other to keep my enemies on their toes. I protected myself for iraq and for family. I would never let them live through abject poverty the way i did growing up. The truth is that while everyday citizens of iraq suffered saddam and his family stockpiled though wealth the u. n. demanded that iraq destroy their weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles under supervision by u. n. weapons inspectors saddam again refused america's demands and publicly accused washington of being an arrogant blind power which sees nothing but it's narrow interest. He then threatened that. If un inspections weren't stopped iraq would be forced to retaliate. He said there is no way and no detail to that course. Did you really think. I was going to let them see what i had. What the americans. Let me see that weapons. I told all the american inspectors to leave. i won't let any other them inspector into my palace. I told them. I'd get rid of my weapons on my own. The rest of the nineties who are marked by increasing civil unrest iraqis had enough of the sanctions imposed on them because of saddam's actions frustrated with salim's refusal to cooperate. Us president bill clinton and british prime minister. Tony blair launched a four day bombing attack on baghdad in december of nineteen ninety eight. It was a brutal decision. The scrutinized by many that heard iraqi citizens more than saddam and his loyalist in january two thousand and one the us inaugurated a new president. George w bush. I swear to god. My biggest punishments in life is that he made me do with not one but two president bushes. But if i had nothing to do with what happened next. We have a breaking news story. I'll tell you just crashed into the world trade center here in a second look at the pentagon it was large. President george w bush was in office a mere nine months before the attacks on september. The eleventh two thousand one. Top of the world trade center's twin towers the bush administration accused saddam of having ties to osama bin laden's network but this was never substantiated. How do they come up with the idea to link me to alcaide the hijacking planes. I mean sure. I don't like america. But come on iraq continues to flaunt his hostility toward america. States like these and their terrorist allies constitute an axis of evil that ignorant american man child bush. Junior goes on tv and announcers part of some axis of evil with north korea and our mortal enemies iran and the actually pulled it off. He fooled the american public. Not that he needs to prove him. I mean he called me dictator. Those bushes did whatever they wanted. And now we all know what. I knew all along. All that lies and the ridiculous axis of evil propaganda was just a smoke and mirrors an excuse to invade the great iraq to steal our reaches only about all profit and their own power on february. The twenty third two thousand and three saddam agreed to his first appearance on an american broadcasting network in over a decade and it would be his last when our time he felt about the possibility of invasion and even his death he calmly replies various no value for any life without chase on april ninth. Two thousand three. The americans invaded baghdad. Saddam was nowhere to be found but in a symbolic gesture they toppled. Saddam study flooding international media with images of iraqis celebrating the fall of their leader. I knew couldn't stick around and by that to keep my distance like focus on organizing liberation battle. So i went to a farmhouse north of decrease i went further underground but i never gave up control of iraq like the americans want to believe i went into hiding so i could stretch is and wait for the perfect time to hit back and catch my enemies. By surprise i had my translators translate anything that would help me decide on the right tactics to confront the american troops. Tse tombs on guerrilla warfare is a person who favorite we would need to take the battle to the streets when it was time to surprise and defeat the american allied forces interviews with saddam's former translator reveal. He never gave up power or gave up his belief that he would strike back expel. Us forces and take back control of iraq. For three months he started is underground while the intensive search for saddam and his supporters continued finally on july. The twenty second two thousand three. Us soldiers got close to sit down by capturing and executing his sons o.'day and coup say in a raid on a villa in the northern city of mosul. I left my son's in the hands of trusted comrade. Now weather's eight then but he betrayed me. Little design oh this same snitch. Ecause my beloved sons. The future of iraq to be murdered. Let the americans to me. No doubt you saw the states propaganda. The americans those convenience images of me and filthy clothes and my overgrown beard and hair and tangled mess. Do you really think. I would let myself go like that. The americans needs to look like they from me defeated and a hole in the ground. But really i was biding my time in the luxury seller of the house waiting for the right moment attack. Don't believe everything you hear. Indeed that was on the thirteenth of december. Two thousand and three. His trial began in two thousand and four critics around the world of you did a show trial that did not meet international standards of saddam. Hussein often look more like a theater than a corcoran national came to saddam's defense stating that. The trial was unfair on the former head of the iraqi special tribunal. That was trying. Saddam accused the interim government of rushing the show trial to appease the international coalition against iraq and cement their power. The whole trial was a sham. The americans rigged it. Accord was designed to remove me from power. They want to smell the great iraq built. This is what the americans do time and time again. When they're threatened by another is powered saddam would be sentenced to death for the mass murder of one hundred and forty eight civilians in the city of jail in nineteen eighty two. He was transported to u. s. army base called camp justice in buck dot where he was executed by hanging on the thirtieth of december two thousand and six the first day of the muslim holiday aide out heart. His execution was broadcast on the national state. Television network a rocky. The footage was accompanied by upbeat music. Videos background the. Executioners could be heard taunting saddam and just as he meets his demise saddam artists whose final rallying cry just hours after his death grainy pixelated video of his body is closed mouth open rope wrapped around his neck went viral. But you see in that footage. Though is in the eye of the beholder to some sunny muslims. It was a celebration of saddam's martyrdom on the sacrifices he made for his country to others like shia muslims on iraq's kurdish population saddam's death spelled feed him from tyranny and torture unto others still the footage of saddam's execution gave them pause. Was it an active justice or revenge. Saddam was buried where his story began near his birthplace in algebra close to where his sons o.'day and kusei laid to rest whether you see saddam he saw himself a hero and martyr his country or a violent a maniac. His mark on history is undeniable. Fact this iraq was week. Before i came on i turned it into a force to be reckoned with. Artem was the greatest and oldham east. We thrived even as our enemy. Streit bleed us dry history as no most history. Say it's peace. That was the episode saddam hussein titan and tyrant from al jazeera. Thanks to duran mellow to free us on aljazeera for sharing this podcast with us for more information about hindsight checkout. It's page on dot com.

saddam iraq Saddam hussein Saddam al jazeera Joanne melody Saddam hussein martin duke saddam hussein john melody charles dance salama pan arab socialist party Don king pipo Us ministry of defence building lord mountbatten talkable Vinick nick qasim
December 30, 2006: Saddam Hussein Executed

Today in True Crime

12:46 min | 6 months ago

December 30, 2006: Saddam Hussein Executed

"This episode is brought to you by audi. The holidays are here. And it's time to get started on those wishlist but this year may be swapped the fuzzy slippers and cashmere sweaters for something more exhilarating like the cutting edge available virtual cockpit amid my systems and the confidence of quattro all wheel drive which can only be experienced behind the wheel of a new audi and some through te'o wishlist at the season of audi sales event. Happening now i. Today is wednesday december thirtieth. Two thousand twenty on this day in two thousand six former president of iraq. Saddam hussein was executed. Welcome to today and true. Crime a spotify original from podcast. I'm vanessa richardson and today. I'm joined by our guest host. Kate leonard from daily quote. Her show explores a new quote each day from inspiring figures. All around the world. Kane is joining us to discuss some of the historical aspects of today's story while the narrative. Thanks vanessa i'm excited to be diving into this fascinating story now. Let's go back to saturday. December thirtieth two thousand six around six am in baghdad. The room was still dark as the sun rose and yet no one turned on a proper light instead. They clump together in the dim industrial space talking amongst themselves and waiting there were about two dozen of them there that morning for the of a dictator. It was a surprisingly small crowd. Only witnesses and the executioners themselves would be allowed the grim privilege of witnessing saddam hussein's final moments some were buzzing with anticipation others however stood in silence. They all knew the significance of the ground they stood on. It was the former headquarters of saddam hussein's defunct secret police. It was a place that had facilitated the violent interrogations of hussein's enemies for years. More than one man. Standing in the room had been tortured by saddam's spies in that very building and now they were about to watch the man responsible die. Finally it was happening. The door opened and three guards with black ski masks escorted an older bearded man in a dark overcoat into the room. There'd been whispered that. Saddam had put up a struggle when they came to take him from his cell that morning but the man in front of the now showed no signs of resistance as he stepped inside the dark room. He looked drawn. And aged hussein's characteristic. Pride and fire seemed to have been sapped. That was left was a quiet man who suddenly looked all of his sixty nine years. Perhaps for the first time he was vulnerable and yet saddam remained calm composed even a camera snapped it's flash illuminating the room for a moment then broken from its stupor. The room suddenly came alive. Voices clamored and more cameras clicked punctuating. The this as the former president was led up a steep metal staircase at the top stood a platform in its center hung alone. Noose in stood stoically with his hands bound behind his back as his executioner placed a black cloth around his neck but when offered a hood be placed over his head he refused it was only once he was on top of the gallows platform overlooking a crowd of witnesses. That the sparks of hussein's defiance finally reemerged. He shouted to the crowd. God is great. The nation will be victorious and palestine is arab then the rope was placed over his head. Prayers and taunts alight could be heard from the room below as hussein stood with the noose around his neck. One of the executioners told him that he had destroyed iraq arguments erupted around the room. in response hussein. A suny muslum mocked a prominent shiite cleric. They would be some of the last words he ever uttered. The noose was tightened and the trap door beneath his feet opened with a great crash. The metal platform gave way hussein. Dropped through the floor and the room erupted into chaos. The witnesses clamored over to the place where he had fallen checking to see if it worked if he was really gone as they gathered around cheers echoed across the cement room. Saddam hussein the former president of iraq the tyrant who had held an iron grip over the country for over two decades was finally coming up. The world wakes up to the news of saddam's. This episode is brought to you by audi. The holidays are here again. And it's time to fill out those holiday wishlist but this year. Avoid the usual. Trappings set aside the fuzzy slippers and cashmere sweaters. And consider something a little more exhilarating like the feel of available nappa leather the cutting edge available virtual cockpit and emma my systems and it confidence of quattro all wheel drive all of which can only be experienced behind the wheel of a new audi and some through to your wishlist. At the season of audi sales event happening now now back to the story on december thirtieth two thousand six former president of iraq. Saddam hussein was executed by hanging before a small audience of witnesses in baghdad. It was officially the end of a dictator whose brutal reign over iraq had lasted decades my guest host. Kate is going to take over from here to discuss the details of saddam's crimes. And the impact is death had on iraq and the globe. Thanks vanessa saddam hussein's rise to prominence in the nineteen sixties began nearly forty years before his death. At the time hussein was part of the baath or renewal party that came to power in nineteen sixty eight hussein quickly rose the ranks and was selected as iraq's vice president then for ten years. He bided his time plotting to secure his own future. A decade later hussein staged a coup ousting the leader of his own party and installed himself as president of iraq. The country remained under hussein's autocratic rule. For almost thirty years in that time hussein became entrenched in a cult of personality. He was known to have commissioned a koran to be transcribed from his own blood and even wrote a romance novel that was later adapted into a musical. He insisted the iraqi people call him. Great uncle or the anointed one but hussein's rule didn't just consist of lavish vanity projects under his leadership. Iraq spiraled hussein engaged in a bitter eight-year war with neighbouring iran that drained the country's finances and killed hundreds of thousands of iraqis not long after in nineteen ninety. Saddam invaded kuwait resulting in the first gulf war. He also orchestrated multiple massacres in iraq and neighboring countries alike including the mass murder of the shia and kurdish people. Whether through war chemical weapons or a cleansing more than a million people lost their lives under saddam's regime however in two thousand and three believing iraq had weapons of mass destruction. the united states invaded and sent hussein into hiding. Nearly nine months later he was found in an underground bunker in his hometown of crete. The us never found any weapons of mass destruction. However hussein's capture by american forces spell the end of his dictatorship. He was imprisoned for three years during which he was tried in. Iraq's national court ultimately he was found guilty of crimes against humanity and was sentenced to hang the moments leading up to hussein's hanging were broadcast throughout the country by iraqi national television many cheered at the footage of their once. Brutal leader being led to the gallows but tribal loyalties also shaped how iraqis felt about. His execution hussein was a sunni muslim as were many members of his government while many shia were overjoyed at his death. Iraq sudanese had more mixed feelings. Some supporters of hussein chose to remember him as a hero. A defender of iraq against american occupation. Rather than a desperate. And some were outraged. After saddam's the newly-installed prime minister new reality pleaded with the rockies for unity. He said in a written statement in the name of the people. I call on all men of the past regime and manipulated by it to reconsider their stances. These pleas for peace were answered with violence. The day of hussein's execution multiple car bombs were reported in shia majority cities killing over sixty people. It seemed iraq's future was still and the climate in the country would be fraught with tension for years to come under. Iraq's fledgling government the region remained deeply divided spurring uprisings and even civil war still. Since the dom hussein's execution iraq has forged. Its way forward and progress inevitably marches on whether they cheered for lamented when saddam hussein ascended the. Gallows december thirtieth. Two thousand. Six will be a day forever ingrained in memory of the iraqi people. I'm vanessa richardson. Thanks again for joining me today. Thanks for having me. You can find my podcast daily quote on spotify or wherever you. Listen to podcasts. If you want to hear more on the regimes of other notorious leaders check out our show. Dictators today in true crime is a spotify original from podcast. You can find more episodes of today and true crime and all other spotify originals. From podcast for free on spotify. We'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow in true crime today in. True crime is a spotify original from park. Ask it is executive produced by max cutler. Sound design by one boorda with production assistance. By ron shapiro. Carly madden and bruce kovic. This episode of today and true crime was written by. Alex garland with writing assistance by terrel wells. Back checking bennett. Logan and stars vanessa. Richardson and cape leonard

hussein iraq audi Saddam hussein saddam vanessa richardson Kate leonard baghdad vanessa saddam hussein baath or renewal party Kane vanessa Saddam palestine national court Kate kuwait Saddam crete iran
Blowback: Iraqnophobia feat H. Jon Benjamin & James Adomian

Chapo Trap House

36:27 min | 1 year ago

Blowback: Iraqnophobia feat H. Jon Benjamin & James Adomian

"Love the show. Hi this is Saddam Hussein Harry there. Who's this Bush as a hanging vine? Yeah I'm just Having a snack going some dates your date no dates. It's a fruit I. I don't think you have them there. Sharper plums or like Big Raisins Right. So listen Saddam. I was thinking we should have a chat about all this big bad war talk you know cameras and all that nonsense. Yeah watching it on. Tv Right now. Are you serious about this? Why LISTEN TO DAMN AS ALADDIN? Wise said we've got a whole new world here after September nine eleven and with me. Well I tell you there's folks that's telling us you have just the attackers who well we got show Intelligencia the shows you were working with them. You Sama been who you know who says that we have evidentiary source ace. Testimonials is that kind of stuff. I asked who listen. It's not even about nine eleven. We got Intel here showing you possess weapons and weapons are made for fighting weapon just WMD. Look let me tell you something. I'm not sure if you know this. Your Dad and I used to work together. I just hold on back in the eighties. He and I were working on this project. I started the Iran Iraq war ever heard of that. Hey hold on okay. Your Dad and Rumsfeld. We did some great stuff together. Good he invited me to is brand ranch dressing but adds a great guy no question. There will accept. His Buddies told me to borrow a bunch of money right. Gosh what is oh. I try and you know jump on some assets in Kuwait and he freaks out well. I don't know what that was about but you know what it's forgotton okay. I don't even care now. Harris Fang Shad A. M. My Daddy's not running this thing I am. I'm giving chance here to hand over your weapons weapons. There are no weapons. Ask Your Dad. Cool your jets. I don't have any jets is asking you to cooperate with the cooperation fine. I'm happy to cooperate. Send inspectors make yourself at home a little better reverse psychiatry rabbit season rapid season. Look out your Michigan gentrifying international community and I'm counting. We're GONNA have to go in there so we're not even doing what happened to the inspector we will but if they don't find anything we're going to go inspect with you know explosions. What is your problem? We've got no. I'm not putting no no no you listen to me. He put your down. Put them on right now and he's not here. He's at work. Put Your father on the bone. Fuck attraction say say get up on the roof and adjust daddy satellite this. I'm getting up in here. Free Talk. Welcome to blowback a podcast about the Iraq war. I'm Brendan James. And I'm Noah Colin and this is our free giveaway episode. Treat a sampler a taster Think of it as a podcast d'oeuvres. Yeah a prologue. Some of you may know me from my old podcast Comedy left wing Politics Asleep. Political Gabfest this snark SNARK REVOLUTION. Very proud of the work. I did on that show. And and Noah. I'm an editor at the outline and I've covered technology and politics for Vice News Rico New York magazine and holder you're lying media. You're part of the establishment but this is our show about the Iraq war the full show that we're going to be doing is on stitcher premium. It's a as you're listening to this. And you can get a free month of stitcher premium if you go to STITCHER PREMIUM DOT COM and sign up with the code blowback one word and that will let you listen to the entire show from this point forward as it comes out week after week. In June the whole thing will be available publicly but in the meantime go to stitcher premium dot COM Promo Code blowback. If you WANNA listen right away. So we're doing a show about the Iraq war why I think this was your idea. You're blaming me already. I think it's a skeleton key for understanding where we are. Now you know I you said to me. Hey No one's really done a show or at least one like we. WanNa do about the Iraq war and I was like you know what is there to say everyone basically nose now. It was bad Wmd It wasn't there they lied. Cetera ET CETERA. But then I started noticing George W Bush hanging out with Michelle Obama and Ann Ellen and I saw an article including Dick Cheney John McCain in the Hashtag resistance and I saw people liberals supposed- lefties approving of coups in Venezuela and Bolivia last year. And I thought okay there is something here. It's worth retelling the story of the Iraq war. Because what's really happened with. What explains all that is that we Americans have have shoved the Iraq war this century defining war crime down the memory hole. I mean the Obama years and the trump administration have put so much distance in American minds. Which means what happened then and what's happening now. Obama initiated horrifying new bombing campaign in Iraq in two thousand fourteen that guy who ended the Iraq war quote unquote authorized to operations in Iran trump just assassinated Iranian general inside of Iraq which is part of the proxy war. That's been going on since we invaded in two thousand and three president trump has not spoken directly about the killing but he did tweet this image of an American flag shortly after the Syrian civil war. That most guilty liberals pretend to care know about is partially one big spin off of the Iraq war how it was possible for this isis to sort of sweep in two western Iraq. I'm looking at poll here. It says it fifty one percent of Americans now say that they opposed the Iraq war back when it was launched in two thousand and three but a pew poll conducted at the time in two thousand three right before we went in showed that seventy two percent of Americans actually supported the war. Only twenty. Three percent were post so not only. Is there a Cultural Amnesia? A POLITICAL AMNESIA. About what happened. But there's an actual like among regular people there's an actual Amnesia about whether or not they supported it whether or not they opposed it. So that's a that's a disturbing trend and so many of the ghouls goblins who made this thing happened. We killed we killed six hundred thousand people in Iraq you know. I don't know if people know the figure. I don't know if people know that we designed to forced labor system influenza. I don't know if people know that we used white phosphorus on Iraqis still cause birth defects to this day. This is the kind of stuff that I realized. Sure that could use a retelling. Did you believe ever that Saddam Hussein when you had been kissed? Vote to the war in Iraq. Did you ever believe that? Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons. Chris I I'm just telling you that was the prevailing opinion. People have been able to sort of do some sort of Jujitsu to explain that it was really the moment you kind of had to be there. you know it was really just a result of you know if. Sanzar butts a lot of what have used in. I think it's about time that we sort of go back and examine the ways in which no they did have a choice. They chose so strap in join us. Be with us as we go down this horrifying journey into the past Because we want to do it with some fun. We want it to be. Entertaining is going to be sidebars. Is going to be gags. Obviously if you earned the opening sketch To this episode we're GONNA mix the low brow on the High Brow. The the funny and absurd with the Disgusting the enraging and hopefully that captures the full the full nature of this nightmare that we unleashed ever journey in the mind. I want to take this out. These are Iraqi dinars. From a long time ago this was given to me by at a show last year. Oh well they're they got Saddam's face on him and he's looking good. He's probably like in his prime here. They're very beautiful. The Central Bank of Iraq. Two hundred and fifty dinars. And if you follow the news you might know that. There are a bunch of Maga- people who think that the Iraqi dinar will at some point be worth millions of dollars once. President Trump revalued the currency when think they don't realize there is that revaluing currency involves printing new bills and the old money is not so missile. So if you've stocked up on dinars like that and you try to cash them in for like a billion dollars. They're not going to be valid right here. You're telling me that like Maga- people don't necessarily and they haven't thought it through yeah shocked but if in case there right we here have a two hundred fifty dollar note. With how much do you have I also have two hundred fifty okay. Great so we're we're rich guys know when this was made I mean Saddam is wearing a suit. He's a full head of hair. Yeah he never lost his head of hair. No that's true In fact it actually only grown when he was captured before we invaded you. Know what was Iraq like? Yeah I mean we're going to get into a lot of this stuff in the show but People have this idea. Of course of it was a dictatorship under Saddam. There's the Baath Party. Which was his his party in. Third -Tarian Arab Nationalist Party is true. It's basically true. It was a dictatorship Saddam consolidated power at the end of the Seventies. He was already kind of the the real heavy but he made formal and then throughout the eighties. He became the face of Iraq's political dictatorship but Iraqi society and culture and was more than Saddam was like rock was one of the most progressive most developed. If not the most at that point at that moment of time in the seventies and the eighties It was the most developed and progressive Arab country in the Middle East. I mean there are trade-offs as we just said we don't minimize the fact that Saddam was A. It was a cruel dictator who did awful things particularly to ethnic minorities in Iraq. Yes the the party was brutal to those that did not like or did not want to like on the other side of things. Iraq had one of the best healthcare systems in the region best education systems women's rights etc. It wasn't some Rinky Dink. Third World Failed State or whatever it became that once we got home we got more involved. Yeah which made it very easy in two thousand and three to say. Look at this place. We got to renovate by going in with some explosions yes Saddam. It was a very tightly run ship on under his regime. He did run for president again. A couple times quote unquote ran and he did that in two thousand and two a year before the war and do you know the the campaign themes like the song that he used to campaign man no one else was. I GonNa play it to tell me if you can name that tune. Oh my God. Just be like cars. Driving around Iraq blasting always love you with pictures of Saddam on the knows man. I know it's really on the nose. But that's what you're GONNA get. Yeah Yeah Yeah I guess. What are you setting your sights on? And when you see you'll be ready. Call one eight hundred six four or five army and you'll also get this free Buni. Whatever you're looking for army can help you find one of the things that coming into making this that I wanted to know more about. Was you know what was the moment in two thousand three? Like how did we prepare a nation or condition people to accept that it would be necessary to go in and just like dominate another country into ruins? Yeah I mean obviously. There was the formal case for war. There was the whole edifice of Saddam turning Saddam into this. Inter dimensional villain. Nine eleven had people running scared exactly. Then that's a huge part of war. Come on all right. We Pearl Harbor. We gotta go bomb everything over there. Now we've got a bomb. The hell out of them. You know who it is. I can't say but I know who it is. We'll get to that obviously but There was also the cultural side of things obviously conservatives immediately press the country music button and there's eight thousand songs by it wasn't it wasn't just conservatives. I mean you had there were like you know like the are friendly old. Libs at SNL. For instance. I don't think that they necessarily have their head screwed on straight either. Snl I somehow everyone I think continues to think of it as the The loyal opposition because they make fun of President Chito or whatever even though they had won the fucking show but in two thousand and three. I found this clip. Snl is using the month before the war to make fun of not the Bush administration not. They're insanely bullshit case for war. That's about to get a lot of people killed but to make fun of some of the few people standing in between us and the gates to the hell dimension the UN weapons inspectors correct. We you win. Weapons inspectors opened up now here. We go got weapons. Okay weapons inspectors Robert Deniro and a guest appearance and Jimmy Fallon again. You can see all of our greatest horrors Germany at this moment and then Fred arms and plays an guard. Who's clearly hiding weapons behind that door? I mean look like Google to Comedians. Were fucking saying then like imagine what they were actually saying on. Cable News Well you might be. You might be interested to know what. Msnbc was doing at the time the good liberal opposition from minimum quest for Saddam WANNA catch Saddam Hussein Ulibarri. Popular new video. Game allows you to do just that the reality based game features many funny scenarios and joining us right now from Sacramento is Jesse Portrayal. He is the video game designer. Who had just age eighteen creatively wildly successful quest for al Qaeda game that clip. You just heard I think the audio speaks for itself but just to give you the the the the visual element to that's MSNBC. There's some anchor. It begins with a clip of the video game. Which by the way looks like Shit? That game looks horrible and it was not well designed in. That guy isn't clever. And there's a bunch of Saddam like lookalikes in a room. And they're doing you know racist Arabic. Sounds that this guy thinks sounds like Arabic players get down to hunt the former dictator Iraq Saddam Hussein Jesse. Thanks for joining us. Good Morning. Excuse it's good to be here to tell you I've been laughing every time we've been playing this behind the scene you can't hear me but the Homina Homina great and then the anchor starts the segment of goes. I love that bit although the BC. She's doing she's doing racism folks and then she continues to interview this absolute moron. Who obviously his his career did. Not Take off from there. But at the time that got you on Cable News To murder Saddam in a video game have MSNBC PIMP your game out by the way. I looked up the guy that the game developer there and Would it surprise you to know? He is not making video games but is a giant magae posting incessantly. About how a Oh see is a dumb broad who needs to? He'll he'll he'll tell her what's what what I look at things. What you've created this nice job. None of us. Let's talk about if you will the cast of characters that we're GonNa meet and spend some time with during the show because they're all very colorful. I step obviously there's Saddam right. We're GONNA start the show in Iraq and we're GONNA obviously see him Where a lot of different hats and go through a lot of different changes was born in one thousand nine hundred thirty seven and he grew up in the middle of Iraq in a pretty poor place he grew up near the town of Crete In central Iraq from a fairly young and early age involved in Arab nationalist efforts to you know clawback Iraq from colonial powers. And you know he was. Involved in assassination. Attempts Uis are pretty well connected guy and had a reputation as a thug. I mean he was reputed to have committed his first murder while he was still a teenager. Yeah also as we'll see as an interesting part of the politics that shape Iraq in the twentieth century before Saddam takes power big anticommunist. Oh yeah I mean already were? You know we're going to get into the Cold War stuff. But Saddam was a nationalist. He May anti-british but he was no fan of the reds right. And you know this is also part of a explains his rise to power the fact that he was such a diligent an effective anticommunist helps explain why he was able to become the strong man that he was in the seven and why we liked him so much also. Saddam had We we don't get to this stuff as much just because you gotta make some choices but he had a very soap opera family arrangement. There was a lot of drama. Saddam had two sons his heirs Kusei and Uday was like the straitlaced. Who's pretty competent? Day was a complete fucking monster. He was a psycho pass. He was like Ralph cigarette just like honestly like huge sex criminal which shoot people at parties for fun exactly what you think of as like a dictator spoiled. Brat Kid who inflicts only pain and misery upon everyone around him. It was a very a bargain. Mafia show type drama and in fact they did make. Hbo Did make a really bargain. Great he was called House of Saddam around. Hbo IN THE MID Two thousand. Although let's be clear it is like a delicious kind of irony that got an Israeli. Who is you know here? In arab-israeli he was a good actor but an Israeli nonetheless to play Saddam Saddam. Though is I guess you could look at the biggest winner in the second half of the twentieth century in Iraq but that also meant that they were people who lost out pretty big and who would spend the rest of their lives trying to plot against Saddam. And you might see an opportunity when we started grumbling about going to war against Saddam in early two thousand enter a certain man named Akhmed Chalabi. What role would you like to play in any new government? If you were asked to run to be the new leader of Iraq. Would you accept? It's not about me personally. I do not want to of this hypothetical question. Chalabi was in Iraqi exile. He split the country after revolution. That happened in the fifties in Iraq Saddam stayed and took over eventually Chalabi swore one day he would come back and he'd takeover he was the model of one of those guys An exile who lives in the West after a revolution happens in their country who then becomes a very very willing partner of the CIA or the State Department Dod Chalabi was all three of them at different points of his career and he was the guy who more than anyone else. Outside of the American government was in it to win it against Saddam and help us do it and he was himself like this totally like strange in colorful character. He was I say he's a Coen brothers. Character brought to life. He is he. There should be some bio-pic about him. Although I wouldn't trust Hollywood to do it but someone should do. The SAFDIE brothers should do it. That makes sense. I mean like a house so first off to give you a sense if everyone knows what Saddam looks like but he have to say if you had to cast him I would go. He looks like Jon Lovitz. I'm sorry I guess I was just thinking of myself. He's in Iraqi Jon Lovitz. He's short squat kind of frumpy looking. But he had very good tastes. He's very. He was very sophisticated. He came from this rich wealthy business family. That was why he fled Iraq. When this populist revolution happened in the fifties and he could recite poetry he could rattle off a bunch of Trivia about the Japanese empire. He's meeting a mathematician he. Yeah after he left Iraq grew up in Lebanon. Forbidden became a professor of mathematics and Lebanon. He would later then. claim that he invented some code breaking thing that his colleague did or a mentor of his did just which goes to show how genuinely had the raw intelligence he had and then the raw malfeasance allergens see a total flimflam his whole life just one of the great conmen of all time because as we'll follow him throughout the show he keeps bouncing back he gets kicked out of his country. He bounces back. He makes a bank in Jordan. He starts to steal a Shitload of money. Millions of dollars from Jordan. He bounces back he gets a job at the CIA trying to overthrow. Saddam fucks up his chances with the CIA gets kicked out comes right back gets in there with the Bush administration and then lands in Iraq in two thousand and three ready to take over so he's one to watch freedom's untidy and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things. They're also free to to live their lives and do wonderful things. Probably the most famous like bureaucrat of the Iraq war was Donald Rumsfeld face of the war. Really yes exactly anytime in the show. Will you hear like a clip of someone on on a podium from the Bush administration and their whiny smuggle voiced its Rumsfeld? And it's funny because he actually didn't begin his political career as a hawk actually. Yeah you know. Rumsfeld he began his political life Fairly young in the sixties as a congressman from Illinois and. He was a fairly moderate guy. He was a pro choice. He coasts bonsor to the freedom of Information. Act and then he joined the Nixon administration. He's also actually pressing to end the Vietnam War because he thought it was a loser. Yes he was actually got him in trouble with Nixon who then sought to shunt him out and you know send him far away which meant that when Watergate happened and Gerald Ford and he'd to suddenly staff An Administration Donald Rumsfeld is the for one of the first people he went calling. He was clean. Ironically Nixon kicking amount that he was completely shielded from the effects of Watergate and so Donald Rumsfeld was the secretary of Defense under four and then in the nineteen eighties. He goes you know. Let's say we go. He goes freelance. He reenters the private sector. He has you know a number of like you know well paying corporate gigs and GD Searle. I mean you and I it was those he made the diarrhea. Medication and the Lax and he was the chairman of the pharmaceutical giant Gilead But in the nineteen eighties. Actually would you would probably you know. We'll get into it a little bit later but he also did some freelance work on Iraq for the Reagan Administration Rumsfeld reenters. The picture in two thousand is George W Bush's pick for Secretary of defense. I mean you know his reputation at this moment you know. He was a former wrestler Princeton. And he was he was he was eloquent. He had you know he was a charming. It's crazy though because people magazine named one of their sexiest man alive in two thousand two. He held court with the press. He would You know Trade BARBS AND LINCOLN. Do these little smiles and do these little. Pero ads and honest. You'll hear it in the clips replay. Everyone loved him. These fucking people in the White House press corps loved tempt images. You're seeing on television. You're seeing over and over and over and it's the same picture of some person walking out of some building with a vase and you think my goodness were there that many vases guy in the Bush war cabinet who stood out a bit or at least two people thought stood out was Colin Powell. He was viewed as you know the the reluctant warrior. The Voice of reason within the Bush administration a moderate and we need to Take that apart in the show. In a certain sense you can see the appeal of Powell. Symbolically parents were Jamaican immigrants. Grew up in the south. Bronx African American man makes it to the top of the American military hierarchy. He had a good rapport. He was charming. He was good on camera. Appeared like a thoughtful reflective statesmen But in reality this is a guy who when he did a tour to in Vietnam was instrumental in covering up the rely massacre in that country in the eighties. When he ascends even higher up in his administration jobs he helped cover up iran-contra and manage to make it out of that completely unscathed and then when he's finally top dog and head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the ninety s he executed the Gulf War. One of the most brutal assaults on a third world country that America had completely flipped and turned on in Iraq throughout the nineties. He floats above politics and the culture wars and just gets bipartisan adulation. So that lands them in George W Bush's State Department in two thousand and he's viewed as the good cop. You know again. The Voice of reason in the room right but of course that image in that reputation was totally unjustified on behalf of the administration claimed Saddam was trying to buy raw material from Africa to build nuclear weapons at he gave an elaborate description of an Iraqi weapons program that as it turned out never existed this Bush war cabinet they call themselves the Vulcans because of the quote Unquote Vulcan Statue in Alabama. Which is where Condoleeza Rice originally from she was born Birmingham and then the family relocated to Denver because her father worked at the University of Denver where she matriculated at an extremely young age she graduated in nineteen years old then virtuous. I was originally her initial plan when she started colleges to become a concert pianist. If only but life you know has away. She's done concerts Yell Shit. I Yeah I mean which is a girl. Boss is what I'm saying isn't as befits such reputation. She went to Notre Dame got her masters then went back to University of Denver. Gets a doctorate specializing in the Soviet Union specifically in Czechoslovakia and Eastern European politics? And you know she got a judge. She almost immediately gets a job teaching at Stanford while she wasn't really a right wing. Ideologue like you know Rumsfeld or you know other people at this moment he met Kissinger type. Mold of real politique is how people would describe it. But that's that gives it. She was such a real politic. Person that despite going on to help wage war against Wmd and Saddam in the ninety. She wrote a paper saying could contain a nuclear seduce. Just a little bit more savvy and gun shy than some of the most aggressive hawks in Republican politics. Thank -NIFICANT men. And Women of America's armed forces are not a global police force. They are not the world's nine one one personal politics. She was a fairly moderate person but over course of the eighties and the Reagan years and as she moves into the George H W Bush White House in on really senior positions in terms of dictating h WS policy on the Soviet Union especially as the Soviet Union. You know started knocked down. The Berlin Wall began withdrawing from Eastern Europe. She became somebody who you know. H W Bush and his advisers they would rely on in value a lot and so through the nineties. Of course you know she. After H W BUSH LEAVES. She gets to do things that make money for example she joins the board of Ed Chevron so she starts as an is covered in the press as well as really kind of Star. I think someone said of the administrator Andy Card who was George W Bush's chief of staff at one point said she's The star of the administration but as we'll see she was somebody whose political star was entirely hitched on her loyalty to Bush. Bob Woodward reports that George H W Bush talking with one of his advisors you know well into the George W Bush years you know. He said that he thought of Condie is just a great disappointment. There will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapon. But we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud the we just talked about a bunch of the people who are either the decision makers are the people who pretended to be the decision makers. But you know look. Let's take a moment to talk about the brains Let's talk about poet with a quote unquote random quote unquote brains. Paul Wolfowitz Oppo of wits was the son of Cornell mathematician when he himself went to Cornell he studied and became a disciple of Alan Blum the famous conservative intellectual and then Wolfowitz goes onto you Chicago where he becomes a disciple of Leo Strauss. And He's you know really supposed to be like conservative BRAINIAC. Wolfowitz is a great example of this conservative professor to practice pipeline where you know neoconservative ideologues emerging around the time of the Reagan administration. Get brought into the fall by the time. Two thousand rolls around and George W Bush you know needed brainy people to come and do his administration. Wolfowitz would be naturally one of the people that Rumsfeld taps. I read the other day in an interview took issue with the moniker architect of the Iraq. War Why do you not accept that title? Because I was not in charge. I was not the commander in chief or even the secretary of state or the Secretary of Defense or National Security Adviser and more importantly because I and I thought at the time there were a lot of things that should have been done differently but there is no question in my mind that we will be much more secure when we win this battle in Iraq. And we will win it now the Pinky to Paul Wolfowitz his brain would be a guy named Douglas Feith He was the undersecretary for policy in the Defense Department. Doug Feith was the guy put in charge of for example the following things connecting Saddam to al Qaeda proving that Saddam had WMD planning the occupation after we invaded Iraq. None of these things is you can probably tell worked out quite well in the design or the execution and this was a man who by his own colleagues in the Bush administration was roundly and consistently mocked for being a complete Dullard. What the fucking Tommy. Franks Limi- Franks. Who was the head of us? Central Command will execute the Iraq war was once quoted as saying about having to deal with Feith in planning for the war quote. I have to deal with the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth almost every day. That's how he talked about five General France. I don't have to tell you what he said but he called you. It was not nice. Not Nice essentially got a report card. Once the war had kicked off this was by again one of his colleagues one of his fellow. Rumsfeld guys who said quote after two years Doug's leadership has not improved. That's pretty brutal for you know. For Bureaucrats and his nickname and his department's nickname was quote the lunatic fife and his evil spawn but he was after all of this stuff incredibly incredibly deeply loyal to Donald Rumsfeld. And I've just arranged a super cut here of what it was like to listen to the Genius Doug Feith give oppressor on the inner workings of his department. Good morning on the issue of This strategy as you'll see when you read through it does not the there are concepts in here though about that countries are going to be given so you'll notice To people who were missing from from that list were George W Bush and Cheney and we're definitely going to mention them and talk about them but We thought we'd focus more on the show on on the minions in the minions of minions in the the henchmen of henchmen because everyone knows about Bush and Cheney and a lot of the best freaks and material come from the underlings of that administration kind of split the workload into two so I take the lead on the first half of the ten episodes and then no it takes over the first episode. We're GONNA do. A deep dive is to like the origin of America's perverse relationship with Iraq and after the rise of Saddam. Talk about our business partnership with them. We did the Iran Iraq war with him. And then we'll go into the Gulf war where we turn on. Saddam kick his ass and particularly talk about the sanctions in the nineties. Which killed a shitload of Iraqis and really set the stage for what happened in two thousand. Three we'll talk about the case for war. The junk intelligence the assist from Machala be and all these weirdoes go into the invasion. We'll go into what it felt like. In the kind of American you know hot and heavy war climate and then the occupation you know. There's it's an insane story of both malfeasance and corruption and also incompetence and we we took over countries this great imperial power but when we wanted to send an emissary to Iraq's top spiritual leader Ayatollah the Viceroy in Iraq since quote neither a diplomat politician but a wealthy urologist who had developed and patented a penile implant for impotent men. There's a kind of occupation that we carried out right and I think you know we talk a bit about the media. We talk about the ways in which you know. Reporters like Judith Miller especially Sort of operated as a pipeline from rotten intelligence sources like Chalabi to the public. And how the case for was made that way we talk about you know again the origins of the insurgency and how basically many of the people that we claim that we invaded Iraq actually fight we then unleashed on the rest of the country and then of course we go and talk about the surge and strategy that America claimed would save rack but would in reality just put it on a course for Isis. And finally I'd say the show is not trying to be quote objective unquote history We have a point of view. The show has a point of view. If you haven't detected that you had obscure sure it'll become evident. I will say that our sources that we use which you can go to our twitter account at blowback pod and you know. See all of them. They'll be online. We have tried to stick to mainstream sources In every episode. Because obviously the ship was sitting out there for everyone to see. So we're citing the New York Times and Washington Post and the L. A. Times and Bob Woodward and Cobra two of the most popular books about the war. The facts and the source thing. It's all there. It's all in plain view and what we put a bunch of time into this. I think what we've really just tried to do is assemble a counter history of what actually happened using the same set of facts that everyone else has had access to for all starting our interpretation and our emphasis you may agree with or disagree with but we thought that was something that would strengthen the factual backbone of the show and the final thing on that subject of point of view We obviously to American guys and we are aware of that. Both being American and being guys and that is obviously going to affect how we see the story we tell the story But one thing that I think we got lucky with is We have an Iraqi friend named RAW. Who is a political activist and an advocate? And we bring him in Oftentimes during the show and have him weighing in and have him describe through his own voice what it was like to be an Iraqi lived in Iraq through most of the events that we describe and his family did when he wasn't there and so that was important to us to have an Iraqi voice. Because we're telling the story the way that we think is right but it was important for us to to have that and I think the shows all the better for it so this has been our prologue. We'd like to give a big thanks to h Jon Benjamin and James. Domiant thank you John. Thank you James. Whose vocal stylings you heard at the beginning of the episode. Yes there might be a few more cameo appearances by Saddam. Do Oh boy shop. I'm excited. Yeah so that's that's our tastes sampler. Thanks for listening to this one Go check out our first episode Rosebud and we will see you on the other side. Chow by alone DOT COM.

Saddam Saddam Iraq George W Bush Donald Rumsfeld Iraq Saddam Hussein Jesse Saddam Saddam Hussein Harry Saddam Hussein Central Bank of Iraq Iran America Saddam Intel Kuwait President Trump president murder
The Interrogator

I Spy

29:46 min | 4 months ago

The Interrogator

"This is spy show from foreign policies were spies. Saddam hussein was the most brutal dictators of our modern time. Saddam was one of the very few dictators in history to ever use chemical weapons against civilian population. But i was able to find something in common with saddam. The thing that we first connected up was our love appreciation and admiration for our moms from foreign policy. Welcome back to. I spy on each episode. We get one former intelligence operative to tell the story of one operation. I'm margo martindale. American troops captured the deposed dictator. Saddam hussein in december of two thousand and three about nine months after the united states invaded iraq. By then it was clear that the bush administration's intelligence assessment of iraq had been wrong. American troops found no weapons of mass destruction in the country but with saddam now in custody here was an opportunity to find out what exactly the dictator had been plotting within days on christmas eve. Two thousand and three fbi special agent. George piro got a call from his boss and was told he would be heading to iraq. Pirro spent the next seven months interrogating saddam hussein building poor with the former leader and uncovering his secrets. Here's his story. When i received a call. I didn't realize that i was even being considered for the assignment. So at that. Time as i recall we had roughly over twelve thousand. Fbi special agents posted around the world as the fbi went through its agent population to try to identify all of its arabic speakers. The bureau very quickly realized a native speakers they had roughly about twelve. Is the number hours told. I happen to be on the twelfth. So you can see how my chances dramatically increased at that point. Of course being a good interrogator was a requirement. I had done several key interogations while i was in the fbi and of course prior to joining the fbi was a police officer for nearly ten years was detective had really developed mine. Tara gatien skills and abilities. So i began diving into everything in anything that i could get my hands on to understand. Saddam both classified unclassified for example. I watched a bid. Dan rather interview of saddam hussein. That was conducted before the war. All of those things to were acted observed saddam's mannerism who he communicated things he said as well as his history and upbringing and i believe it was around january thirteenth or so we finally were able to physically travel to iraq. So we can start. The my first meeting was saddam. Hussein was actually unscheduled now looking back on it. i'm somewhat glad that it was unplanned. Because it really didn't give me a lot of time to over. Think it get nervous about it things like that so that evening we were at camp cropper. Which was the facility where saddam was being house. We had had our first logistical meetings. And as i was leaving the colonel in charge of the facility came up to me and said hey. He's not feeling very well. I he asked to see the doctor. We don't have anyone with the clearance to translate for the doctor. You wanted to be in charge here you go. It's your problem now. I hadn't even thought about how i was going to introduce myself. What was i going to say that first introduction. Our first opinion really is so critical in anything so i wanted to make sure that first impression was going to be a very effective one. The doctor was walking toward the facility. Still you'd better catch up to He's going so before. I knew it. I found myself standing in front of the prison cell of saddam hussein. I purposely knocked on the door to give him the opportunity just to have noticed that we were coming in and when we opened the door he was standing right there in front of the door inside of the cell. I will tell you. He was much larger than i anticipated. He was about six one which was not. When i expected he was large frame. I could tell he didn't feel well when you're not feeling very well. It kind of shows. I quickly introduce myself by saying my name. And that i understood. He wasn't feeling very well that i had brought a physician and he stepped back. Made a hand gesture to allow us in. Also said yes please. From the way. I spoke arabic. He immediately knew of lebanese descent in. He quickly pointed that up and he said he loved lebanese. People in eleven eleven people loved him. I said we'll great. We're gonna get along very wealth and then at some point even within that first interaction. He pointed out that i was christian. If you're lebanmese and your first name. George very strong likelihood that your your christian metro them that i was. He said that he was very comfortable. With the fact that i was christian and then that there are so many similarities between the three major religions and at that point i realized quickly determined that my religion wasn't going to be a factor. The first interrogation began the actual formal interrogation a week and a half or so after so one of the key concerns. The fbi had was my age. At that time. I was in my mid thirties. Saddam was sixty seven within the arab culture. There's belief that wisdom increases with age. And there's much greater recognition and appreciation and respect given to eight so pretty quickly into the interrogation. He actually asked me. Aren't you a little young for this assignment in a now is really waiting for him to ask me. I wanted him to bring it up on the inside. Our smiling very excited had kind of exactly. Prepare what i was going to say. I told him. I knew that he was a little younger than you. Became vice-president older than me when you was president. If anyone should know it ability not age. I thought it would be f and that really kind of resonated remembering that comparison was presented. I never told them what my title was are. What my rank. But i kinda left it in created the environment where she saw me as a very senior. High ranking official. So the mp's ever responsible for the physical security of saddam. We had made sure that we had coached him. In coordinated with them so that they showed me a lot of deference when a and was engaging with saddam and then my ability to get things done were really exaggerated to give you a quick example at some point we had to really get or sit on to go outside and get exercise time under the geneva convention enemy prisoner of war wars allowed the opportunity to go outside and exercise. Actually it's twice a day for certain a mountain. The military had built the facility to allow him to do that but we wanted him to ask us for that opportunity from an interrogation perspective. You know the act of asking is critical especially at the beginning stages and once he did i shouted out some orders even though everything was built a started to make noise. Bang on things in do all of this behind the scenes acting to make it look like they were building all of this infrastructure. Necessary firm to go outside at that moment based on my instructions fifteen or so minutes later. Twenty minutes later they came back looked at me. And they're like we're ready and he walked outside. He saw these walls and all of these barriers in the entire area developed just for him to exercise and he was shot. He asked me. 'cause you just did this now and i said will you ask me now to go outside so i wanted to give you that opportunity. So things like that really kind of elevated my position in authority within his eiser in his mind having him come to conclusion on his own carries a much more weight so the fbi approach to interrogation is what we call a report based approach. You have to find something in common with your subject. No matter how evil no matter how brutal the person is you always find something in common. Saddam hussein was most brutal dictators our modern time. Saddam was very few dictators in history to ever use chemical weapons against sibling population. But i was able to find something in common with saddam. The thing that we first connected on was our love appreciation and admiration for our mobs said. I'm didn't have a father. Saddam's father died just before just after saddam's birth. His mother raised him. There were very poor in our say. That from everything i ever saw in everything. He all the only person that he truly truly trusted his entire life or any person that had any real influence over was his mother. What adds to that of course in europe culture. The most important woman in an arab man's life is his mother and always will i. Of course have the same respect. Love admiration for my mom. And i talked about everything that my mom is done for me. She has really shaped the man that i am today and he could see that it was very real very genuine. I didn't have to misrepresent anything. I talk about my mom. It's completely true and we connected on. That are routine. Was i would him every morning. Roughly seven am with the medical staff. Our translate for the doctor who would conduct the morning. Medical examine routine and the doctor would leave. would stay. We would have coffee together and we would talk and potentially go outside to the exercise. Yarden things like that. It was critical to get saddam hussein to submit to our authority so getting him to ask for things in says was getting him to passively submit to our city so one of the first ways we actually started to focus on that was high. We wanted to not prevent him from knowing the time but cannot control where he received a time where he saw what time of less so one of the steps that we took is. No one wore a watch except for me. Now i on the other hand were in extremely large. Very very visible watch and slowly began to incense force him to ask me what time it was. And passively submit to our authority. Saddam was a german he touching things he hated people touching him so as you can imagine being in a small prison cell. That did not have an restroom facilities within the cell off kind of challenging for a germaphobe. I introduced baby wipes to him and he became an love with him. He used them for everything. And we would purposely give him a small amount so every week or so he would have to ask for more and over time it became easier for him to ask for things and accept things in was starting to kind of break down on that defensive barrier or wall that he had created to make it a intellectual confrontation between he and april twenty eight. Two thousand and four was saddam's birthday was a great opportunity for us to really demonstrate to them. How the iraqi people felt about him he was a the mindset. The iraqi people really loved him valued him appreciated him and we knew that was not the case. Prior to the war was iraqi law that every iraqi home had to throw a birthday party for saddam hussein poor in a sense that everyone in iraq had to celebrate saddam's birthday so up to this point saddam did not have access to any outside media so no newspapers no tv or anything like that that particular day we actually made an exception and we allowed him to seen newspaper articles. Clips of muse. Things like that. So of course as you can imagine iraqis for the most part. We're celebrating in iraq but there are celebrating not having to celebrate saddam's birthday parties everywhere so that particular day we shared all of that and it really did have a significant psychological effect on saddam. Here's an opportunity for his people. Show their true love and admiration for their leader in showed the complete opposite. I will tell you is probably the most depressed. I had seen in throughout the duration of the seven months that i had spent with him. So my mom had sent me a care package with cookies and things so on that particular day i brought in tea and the cookies which is customary in your culture in a sense sending the message the only people that really cared about saddam procured about his birthday was us. I could see that. Had an effect ghanem emotional effect on that. At least someone in a sense cared enough about his birthday. He knew they were my mom's cookies. And kinda use that to my advantage and it continued to move full. You're listening to ice by a production of foreign policy. We'll be right back. Like most people pod save america co host tommy. Vitor thought foreign policy was boring and complicated until he got the education of a lifetime. Working for barack obama's national security council it was a crash course taught him to things. Anyone could understand these issues and we all have an obligation to try. That's why he started pod. Save the world a weekly podcast from crooked media the breaks down international news and foreign policy developments but doesn't feel like homework each week he and former deputy national security adviser and co host. Ben rhodes walk you through the latest developments with a variety of experts. Count on hearing behind the scene stories. Funny anecdotes and thumbs along the way. New episodes of pod. Save the world. Drop every wednesday. Subscribe now on apple podcasts. Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to. I spy we return to george. Piero the fbi special agent who interrogated saddam hussein when it became very evident that iraq did not have the wmd that we suspected prior to the war. There were really two things we wanted to know. From saddam hussein why were really wrong regarding our intelligence and second what were saddam's long-term intentions as it pertains to his wmd program. It took us about five months into the interrogation to get to the point where we were comfortable and confident asking those questions and we did not want to ask those before we had reached that point one of the things that kind of drove that initial assessment that your wmd was because of a speech that saddam hussein gave in june of two thousand two very very critical speech. In the sense in paraphrasing iraq would not disarm until the others in the region armed rifle rifle. Stick for sticks stumped. I that was a really key speech. In which saddam was basically saying iraq wouldn't give up its wnba. Until iran and israel did the same. So i kinda wanted to bring up this key speech. But i wanted to do it in a fashion that Wooden tip off our interests or focus on the actual speech. We built such tremendous report. I was able to literally say saddam. Hey if you don't want to tell me something you can say. I don't want to say i don't want to talk about versus. Try to lie to me. Because it's insulting but i wasn't going to take anything for granted. So one of the things. Saddam love doing and detention was write poetry and the one disadvantage of being the only person that saddam hussein talked to was. I got to hear all of his poetry for the most part. They were not very good. Or i truly. I didn't understand the majority of them because he would write in a very very old fashioned very traditional. The term is better when Which is travel form of arabic. That i had no idea lee was saying but i had to act like was great was amazing i loved it in all of those things so one day were sitting there and he's reading these poems in of course i'm trying to do everything i can to show how miserable i am on the exterior and i recognize that my segue to the speech was his poetry so at the end of one of his poems. I told him that yet. Very unique riding style. I could sense the passion and the fire. That's in him. It jumps out in his poetry and things like that in a us a lot. A flowery words to describe how how incredible lender for his poetry. He was really ecstatic to hear that. He's accused been listening. You've been paying attention. This is incredible. I said you know what. I what i realized was that you used to write your own speeches because i see that same fire that seem passion in your speeches as i saw off in your poetry but said there was a couple that i didn't recognize some. I'm assuming those were written by others but the majority of of your speeches were definitely yours immediately stopped and he looked at me what he's talking about. Which ones i go. You know a majority of them and i kinda played it off. And he's like no no no which one and go. Ironically you know in june of two thousand you had written a speech and it really didn't seem like your speech Didn't have that same writing style that i've seen in your speeches in your poke. He immediately remember which one it was and we began to have a conversation. He started to tell me why he had written that speech and who his biggest concern was in his fear. Those kinds of things and all to kind of explain away why he did not use the same writing style that he had done for the other speeches or more importantly for his poetry so it became very clear for us is that saddam's big fear was in the united states. it really even was in. Israel is biggest. Fear was iran. Which was his next door neighbor. Get fought an eight-year war award that he almost lost and he recognized the importance of his wmd program and as far more advanced weapons capability to keep iran at bay and of the things that in his mind kept him at at bay was his wmd his weapons program so our intelligence assessment regarding wmd was really driven by his own effort to mislead his biggest enemy which is iran and then everyone else as a result of that being in iraq was not very joy able to thrill of interrogating. Saddam faded within the first week. Who is really hard work. We were long days no days off. The conditions were extremely challenging. You knew you're in a war zone. You couldn't go anywhere. i wanted to get back. Get back to my family. Get back to normal life. And i realized that it wasn't cool anymore. Having said all that made me able the spend so much time with him and alama to be somewhat successful was he was very fun to talk to extremely challenging very difficult but times very very fun. He was very charming. He could be very very charismatic. The thing that surprised me the most about saddam hussein was his sense of humor. He could be very likable. Suspending five to seven hours with him in a day wasn't as difficult or as painful as you would think when you talk about spending it with one of the most brutal dictators of our modern time while i didn't get emotionally attached or develop personal feelings. Who wasn't difficult to spend hours with him either. The iraqi interim government came to power on june twenty two thousand four what that basically met was a transfer of power to the newly established interim iraqi government on that date the issue twelve arrest warrants the first for saddam hussein and that really kind of began that transfer process so my last interaction with saddam. Hussein was one of the very few. If not the only time that i actually put any thought or preparation into i knew. Saddam lot cigars his favorite cigar. Cuban cigars cohibas so not in got a couple of cohibas so that particular morning we made coffee. We went outside immediately to the exercise yard. I gave him cuban cigar. We sat out at was august of two thousand four with sunny nice day. We smoked a cuban cigars. Drank coffee talk for a couple of hours than than i said. Biden them our surprised how emotional he became. He really started to tear up. I saw tears kind of rolling down his cheek. And i said goodbye and and i was able to depart. You're i actually did not want to watch the execution. I was given the opportunity to go and i said no. Now i had the privilege of helping right in compile the prosecutor report that was prepared by the fbi and provided to the iraqis surf. Anyone knew how evil how horrific of crimes responsible for i did when i was able to compile that prosecutor report however i felt i had completed my responsibility whether it's the interrogation the prosecutor poor and i didn't want to necessarily be present for the execution when the execution took place. I was actually in chicago however everywhere you turn was on every channel so i couldn't avoid it and course watched it. I will say while i believe. It was the most fair appropriate in sentence that saddam could have received for his horrific crimes. I did not enjoy watching it and it was really angry about the manner the way it was carried out. In my opinion it took away from the victims and the crime winner was carried out in what appeared to be very vengeful a manner. You know when they say the most dignified person execution is the person being executed. Something did not go. Well so he and i talked about his trial and his while before his execution. He had kind of told me what he was going to do. He was going to redeem his legacy and his image that was really tarnished by his capture. He was seen as a coward when he was pulled out of that. Four than the way. He appeared her appearance so his goal for the trial and for the execution where still show again the iraqi people in really the entire world that he was a warrior very courageous and fear. If you look at his behavior at his execution really absolutely did that for him he didn't wear a mask taunting him. He dismissed them. He got the prey heated all of the things that he needed to do to really reestablish himself and repair the damage to his image. That was the. Fbi's george piero. These days piero serves as the special agent in charge in the bureau's miami field office. I spy is a production of foreign policy. Our executive editor for news and podcast is dan. Ephron our ice by team includes rob sachs and amy mackinnon. If you like the show please subscribe on your favourite platform and leave us a review it. You have tips or suggestions. Please write to us. I spy at foreign policy dot com. I spy is made possible through the support of foreign policy. Breeders if you're interested in not just espionage but smart geopolitical news and analysis from washington and around the world. Please consider subscribing. I spy listeners can get ten percent discount by going to foreign policy dot com slash subscribe and using the promo code. Podcast at checkout. Next week on. I spy a british agent serves as a mole in northern ireland's shin fain group until his cover his loan. The boss said to me are information as you'll be dead by the more we need to get you out of here tonight. That's next week on. I spy i'm margo martindale.

saddam saddam hussein Fbi Saddam iraq margo martindale George piro Pirro Tara gatien camp cropper Yarden Hussein united states ghanem Ben rhodes bush administration iran Dan geneva Vitor
Why the hell did America invade Iraq?

The Ezra Klein Show

1:19:53 hr | 10 months ago

Why the hell did America invade Iraq?

"If September eleventh was as many have described it a failure of the imagination. The Iraq saga is about imaginations runamuck. Hello and welcome to launch on the box video podcast network. Why did we go to war? In. Iraq. We are longtime after that were started, and one of the strangest facts about politics to me is I still don't know I, still don't understand. What led the Bush administration to choose to go to war in Iraq. Why does what? Why make that decision? Why of all the things you have done of all the risks you could have taken of everything that needed to happen do you bark on that folly? and. Then how did they turn so many people in to enable it was of it. I remember being a college student during this time I was a freshman during the run-up to war and as I was looking at it I didn't trust Bush administration but I kind of trusted Colin, Powell, bit, and then more than that Tony, Blair and bill and Hillary Clinton, and a bunch of these people who I thought had access to intelligence I've never seen, and so they must know something but of course, they did it and so you get this unbelievably. Damaging. Lethal thousands of Americans die hundreds of thousands of Iraqis die America's not in any way made safer. The Middle East is destabilized so much blood and treasure expended for what? Robert Trailer is a journalist New York. Times magazine. National. Geographic and he covered the Bush administration intensely hit a lot of access to Bush the Bush years he brought a book about him then but he realized even writing a book about that administration heated and understand the answer to that question either why did we go to war in Iraq and he's now written a new book called to start a war in it what he does is he talks to more than three hundred people. For the three hundred who were involved in the runup tour, and he basically reconstructs the Bush administration's entire internal debate over the war the debate between agencies of meetings in moments, and it's an extraordinary act of journalism. And it helps answer this question. Just what happened here? How did this get sold? How did it get identified in the first place? Was it just the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time? And it's also just a very, very, very good book about how bureaucracies work and about what happens when the president decides to do something. and. Everybody reorient themselves around that goal I. think it paint some really interesting through lines between the Bush and trump administration's even those teams don't like each other which we talked about in here. As email is conscious at box dot com here is Robert Draper. Robert Draper welcomed guest. Thanks so much for having me as. Some GONNA start with it. Why did we go to war in Iraq? Because the president of the United States believed he had no choice in the matter is the kind of Glib answer. But obviously had no choice in the matter he he had no choice he truly believed the it's on that Saddam posed a threat and we could not wait around for the next threat to materialize after after the administration, the Bush administration had frankly been caught with its pants down nine eleven but obviously, this is one of the theses of the book as is. The fact that Bush believed he had no choice. No matter is testament to how narrow his decision spice was made to be how how absent was of a full constellation of possibilities certainly a diplomatic solution being uppermost among those possibilities and also just how his mind was gravitating towards those things that confirmed his bias os and we will go into that regarding Saddam Hussein but it was not. It's fair to say an open ended search for truth and for all means necessary to avoid war I, just find that that answer. So wild to me because. I when I heard the original book I was Gen- genuinely in having read it's fantastic excited about it because to me one of the central mysteries of politics in my adult life has been why did we go to war in Iraq? Why? Why did he do something? So bizarrely optional with such terrible consequences and for you to say that Bush sought the exact opposite way. The most choice oriented war I. think this country has maybe ever been involved in. To him was no choice I mean that that seems like lunacy to me how how long how, how long after the attack of nine eleven does it take for members of the Bush administration begin talking about going to war in Iraq A few hours on. The there's a reason why I began and for that matter ended the book with the Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz. I think a lot of people have called Wolfowitz, the architect of the Iraq war that's Rony us, but it is certainly true that he put Iraq on the agenda when it had no business being there and on the very evening of nine eleven late that evening Wolfowitz who had long agitated for the military. Overthrow. Saddam Hussein tasks, the Defense Intelligence Agency not with information on the nine eleven hijackers that manifest in fact was already available but instead on a full report of all of Iraq's ties deteriorates. So Iraq was on his mind and what he succeeded in doing within a matter of days was giving it on the president's mind never left his mind the way you tell the story in the book you sort of pick up something tantalizing. That that you sort of put back down and so I WANNA I wanNA stand for a minute here. So Wolfowitz brings us up and you tell it it doesn't really catch Bush's interest I and the moment it does when Wolfowitz says or proposes idea that you could capture the oil fields and use that to launch a regime change operation from Iraq. Now, later on, there's a lot more emphasis on democracy promotion and WBZ and other things. But obviously the less view of the war was that it was blood for oil a war for oil, and at this moment in the book where it seems that is a big part of Bush's thinking. So what hooks Bush because he doesn't come into office that can you need to go to war in Iraq and he doesn't initially respond positively and so is it? Is it oil? Is it something else? Well? Yes. So it's it's worth. Just flicking a little bit of what you mentioned a Bush didn't come into office seeking to depose Saddam Hussein for a lot of people that sounds like a dubious claim given that Saddam had supposedly attempted to assassinate Bush's father former President Bush during a nineteen ninety-three visit to Egypt I supposedly because they're marable to never able to conclusively prove that though it did appear the the bomb in the vehicle that was seized. To the handiwork Iraq intelligence service, but despite the personal animus, the the younger Bush held towards Saddam I think the evidence is pretty plain that he did not want to spend the first terms presidency hugging war widows that he had a full domestic agenda of education reform energy reform tax cuts to implement and everyone around him knew that but it was a source of some bother to. Neo. Conservatives like Paul, Wolfowitz and Wolfowitz after. Getting his tasking from the Defense Intelligence Agency late, the evening of September, the eleventh on Saddam's ties to terror groups then brings up the subject four days later at Camp David on September. The fifteenth which is a war council is really convened to discuss how to strike back at the terrace who did this to us, and so there's George tenant of the CIA showing. Maps of Afghanistan and where they can attack locales of terror groups and Wolf was butts in and says actually why we're focusing on Afghanistan we should really be focusing on Iraq which focused on on killing the cutting off the head of the snake and an argument ensues and you're that President Bush than says, okay. We will leave Iraq for later and tables, and that seems to the end of it and everybody around the table believes that it's over and done with what they failed to take into account. Some that actually foreshadowed in this first chapter relating to Wolfowitz, which was the he was quite a persistent tenacious fellow and the. People like his former boss in the Pentagon Dick. Cheney knew and admired this about him in. So Wolfowitz did not. Simply walk away from the subject in fact, within a matter of hours during essentially a coffee break that afternoon of of September the fifteenth he sidled up to Bush and began pitching the idea to him. But said, basically in overthrow of Saddam could be achieved without a full on military invasion that we could instead basically use air strikes to seal Saddam off from the southern part of Iraq, which includes the oilfields which would. Make him the quote Unquote Mayor of Baghdad but also cut him off from his financial resources which would then impoverishes regime and allow a small military group perhaps head of Iraqi on. To overthrown still kind of cocky Miami cockamamie notion but Bush was very intrigued by it and Bush basically said to Wolfowitz his boss Sector Defense Rumsfeld the next day. Looking to creative responses to or creative means of of dealing with. Iraq. And so that's how the ball starts to get rolling in. Then even though the president properly turns his attention to Afghanistan with Taliban had had given refuge to al-Qaeda abide December. He has already announced appetite for moving onto another theater in the war on terror, and by that point, warplanes begin to be drawn up. Why is there this preexisting interest in invading? Iraq? Though. So there are probably lots of countries that we can come up with clever ways that we could invade them if we wanted to what is the pre nine eleven existing interest in deposing Saddam that gives so much momentum this moment of. Violent possibility. Sure of. One thing it's it's worth noting the this momentum was to a certain degree bipartisan. There had been this continuous view of Saddam, Hussein building up on Capitol Hill throughout the nineteen ninety s Paul. Wolfowitz was a big part of making that happen. So it was a challenge, the head of the Iraqi. National Congress a group of Iraqi refugees who were being funded by the State Department and and so you guys like Senator Bob Kerrey for example, very much in favor of the overthrow Saddam in there was something called the Iraq Liberation Act passed in nineteen, Ninety Eight, which was a resolution calling for that but it was. In the way of resolutions, it was aspiration was not a plan of attack per se. So there was already this view that Saddam was a very boring bed character, a destabilizing force it in in the Middle East, a dictator who were brutally towards his own people and the kind of thumb in the eye to the US was no real notion as rough until nine eleven that Saddam pose any harm to US beyond just the nuisance value of it we did not know that he had weapons. We had no sensitive even if he had intended to use them on us, those were arguments that had to be made later but the first step in that was Wolfowitz floating the proposition that Saddam. Had something to do with nine eleven. This was more or less pretty quickly disproven by the CIA but then came the in celery notion that okay. Well, if he wasn't involved with that one, he could be involved with the next one because he has all these distorted ties to Al Qaeda and other groups that also was for the most part bedded down though it was hotly debated issue throughout the Spring and summer of two thousand two. This is where things get really weird. Is American and global geopolitical history just transformationally different in the absence of two deputy secretaries Powell Doug Feith like if they if Rumsfeld is doesn't hire those two guys is everything today. It's a really interesting counterfactual because on because. It's worth considering the Donald Rumsfeld as much of a hawk as he was regarded was had no particular animus towards Saddam Hussein was not one of the leading promoters of going after Saddam now he did believe shook his hand yet. Now exactly you're right. You're right as as an emissary sent by Ronald Reagan, and that was basically during the time that Iran was our number one threat in the Middle East and Saddam was the enemy of the enemy. So we figured well, let's try to get along with this guy and it was very very fraught relationship to say the least, but it was certainly. There was no point which we thought. Hey, this guy. Could really be a bad actor towards the US towards US interest. Arguably, you know if you're including Israel but but but in terms of being a threat to our homeland never and so it's really wolf who pushes that and the you mentioned the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Doug five as well who also was very much promoting the notion that Saddam. Was a dangerous man and did Saddam, could confederate with others? Who could who disliked America? In plot the destruction of the US again, all of this unsupported by any real evidence just wildlife imagination by two people who you're right I think you know they. Were very, very much the engines to make all this happen I wanNA signpost this conversation for a minute. So I WANNA say reading your book is Infuriating. Was the single most frequent wordless garage it. It is such an angry experience. And I'M GONNA get to all the reasons why but I want to spending some time here at the beginning, trying to understand how these guys were the heroes of this and their own mind. Because and you can tell me if this is wrong but the way I read your book. It's a tragedy driven by idealism not by cynicism yet while particularly as regards. Wolfowitz. Who truly was and I believe still is an idealist whose whose beliefs were. Bred during the civil rights era and he did after all go to the I dream of I have a dream speech of Martin. Luther King in Washington DC in nineteen sixty three who then became ambassador to the UN a US ambassador to Indonesia and there began to see the possibilities of a Muslim-majority population that was nonetheless religiously and otherwise tolerance believes that Saddam Hussein was the one man who was standing. In the way of that happening in the Middle East or one of many men but but first among equals and and the very notion of overthrowing Saddam was originally not born out of cynicism nor even born out of fear it was born out of idealism in the in in the belief via Iraq could be a model of democracy throughout the Middle East if only this time were removed I'm not. Sure I've see much in the way of idealism and fines I think it's more opportunism but Wolfowitz as the person who I put this on the agenda and really made it happen. But but obviously, the decider did make it happen George W Bush was himself in a sense an idealist who really believe that the what people yearn for more than anything else is freedom and did you freedom was basically? The answer almost any question and to any problem the solution was freedom including sectarian tensions, for example, and and we're getting ahead of ourselves in the narrative there but but it's to establish the. You're right. There was more than an idealistic streak that provided locomotion for this misguided policy. So what spray about the Iraq war and maybe this is true for for but because Iraq war such a war of choice. What is distinctive about it is it it doesn't have a singular rationale behind it. In many ways, it ends up seeming like a war in search of a rationale different people want to do it for different reasons in the running around trying to find the arguments will convince others, but but the two or three dominant ones as I kinda count them up are there is. The sort of a war called the humanitarian war and it's somewhat motivated by guilt for what we let Saddam due to the Kurds after ninety one But also just like a fury at what he has done. Time on really isn't murderous like horrifying dictator. There is a war of idealism or on democracy promotion, and this seems to be very potent with Bush who wants to do something in the aftermath of nine eleven and we should talk more about this that gives meaning to the way America was attacked just like pounding sand as they put it in Afghanistan isn't enough like there needs to be a reaction that is big enough to account for what what happened to America and then. There's fear and fear that Saddam was for some reason that nobody ever quite explains give Wbz to somebody to attack US thereby imperilling himself in his own regime an in particular like the fear humanitarian and democracy promotion things every time one falter somebody picks up the other. But what do you think is powerful for Bush? Like what is his motivation for Bush? The dominant rationale is fair. It begins at least that way with the Sutton recognition in the wake of the nine eleven attacks that we are not Saif we did not see September eleventh coming we do not know what's coming next but we feel suddenly vulnerable that we feel certain will be another wave it's suddenly a question of when not if. There is a recognition that is bad as the attacks were they could have even been worse on. For one second cause. Yes. What which is one thing that's weird about that is it It is hard to put the dots together. I'm sympathetic to this what nine eleven literally was, but we saw al Qaeda tat coming right like Bush was getting pd be presidential daily briefings that we're making this point and people are not saying this about Saddam Hussein that he's GonNa attack the American homeland. So that's a that's a jump right? Like the I get the fear that there will be another terrorist attack but I think it will from Saddam I think that if I. Was Many described it a failure of the imagination. The Iraq saga is about imaginations run amok. The very notion that Saddam Hussein Bush said this line over and over as Ezra Saddam Hussein would love nothing more than to hand over his deadly weapons to terrorists who wish to do us harm, and then walk away without leaving. So much as a thumbprint almost every single syllable of what I've just said in that sentence is unsupported by facts Saddam didn't have weapons a he showed no tendency to want to give those weapons to somebody else much less to al Qaeda who he had no meaningful relationship with at best and. Finally, there was no indication whatsoever that Saddam ever wanted to do us harm. It is true that on. September. Twelfth. He was rather churlish standing alone among the leaders of the world who are buying large expressing sympathy for what had happened to America and they're Saddam saying basically playing to his base saying the US had come into them. There were the US is reading the Thorn Thorns of its past policies. Okay. So chose these spiteful jerk, but that does not mean that he is homicide will at least towards the US much less than he's suicidal, which is what that would have been so so yeah, there. It requires a lot of steps and you're right in and again and using the I word infuriating Bush was warned over and over that, an attack could well becoming by al-Qaeda towards the US that they that. This was a group that did have evil designs on the US and with the infamous August the six, two, thousand, one bin Laden Determined to strike in the US presidential daily brief that he received. It was spelled out for him and the person who wrote that brief later asked the briefer who gave it to Bush. So what was the reaction and the reaction was Bush saying you've covered your ass and the person who wrote the brief was flabbergasted and said, you mean, no questions no curiosity of any kind. So it's the notion then the that the this should have been. News to the Bush administration is a kind of outrage unto its own but it does help explain how a MMC ministration from the president on down realize that something deadly had happened on their watch determined not to let it happen again, and then in perverse twist of fate began to revert to the familiar onto look at a familiar foe rather than the unfamiliar fo that had just attacked US I. Don't know that it is possible to untangle what I'm trying to untangle here but but it seems to be central. So I WANNA I wanNA keep on it for a second which is. There is so much. Appropriate fear after nine eleven. But Even at the moment, there is all that fear they are turning away from the. Network. That we should be afraid of right you are tracking in in your book the Way Bush begins talking about this as an opportunity. That there's an opportunity here to transform the Middle East as an opportunity, and that's why I, say that what what seems to meet a happen at least on some level is that they believe that just like attacking Afghanistan and bombing Taliban sites and like China mop-up al Qaeda, it's not enough right like they're al-Qaeda's so small compared to America that for the attack to have meaning for the narrative to be something that they can feel was still a narrative of American triumph they need a bigger project. And yet. For all the craziness of AD. That actually seems like it should be an opposition to the fear, right? They choose to go after someone we shouldn't be afraid of, and yet there is at the same time this effort to create fear. So so I'd like to just talk about the relationship between the I guess the humanitarian, the democracy and the fear based case for Iraq who are the players who believe which one and how do those things support and in conflict with each other. So, properly, let's start with President Bush and I do believe it while he is initially motivated. By fear and determination to thwart the next attack There's also a real Christian impulse that comes into play here, which is how to derive meaning from a tragedy and tragedy that happened to happen happen to take place on his watch and if you believe as. President. George W. Bush did that everything is part of God's plan. Then you tend to see you tend to imagine that goodwill somehow come out of this that there will be an opportunity for a good and this is what Bush began to talk about within days after nine eleven via the through our tears we see opportunity and not just opportunity for vengeance but opportunity. To come together as a nation opportunity to perhaps Renew alliances or forge new alliances and invite matter and opportunity to assess redraw the map of the Middle East. The an impulse of comes into play later but I do think that that broader impulse very much is animate in. Bush. Wolfowitz we've talked about Vice President Dick Cheney had been of the belief that Saddam was a bad actor and and after nine eleven believed Vince of people like Saddam Hussein. Never Really Believed America when America said, it was angry about something that you could get away with almost anything when it came to the US weather was bombing embassies in Africa or bombing the US coal off the off the coast of Yemen and nothing really terrible would happen because of it and so Cheney was of the belief that unless and until we began to project force to show people that we meant business than they continue to behave as if they did not know idealism in other words as regards Cheney more motivated by the need to show power with Rumsfeld, his view was. We it's always hard to tell us Rumsfeld because. He seemed more interested in intellectual riddles than an actual policy, but it did certainly believe that after September eleventh if we are going to have a war on terrorism, global war could not just be confined to a place like Afghanistan which as you alluded to previously. Did Not, have suitable bombing targets that would be tantamount to pounding sand, and if you really wanted to hit someone in a way, hurts in a way that would show others that we meant business of viewpoint in other words, kindred to his friend Dick Cheney's Then you should not limit your military impulses just to have Ghanistan. So those are the pro or people on the one side, and then you've got people at Condoleeza Rice who were proceeding with caution and I think trying to sort of figure out had read the room the room being the Oval Office in the president's desires were and then someone like Secretary of state. Colin Powell. Who believed that going after al Qaeda was the right in just move after September eleventh and go beyond that was going to be outside of an international charter would squander all of the goodwill that we can develop throughout the world. This gave rise to his notion via. You know we needed to build a coalition for went on any kind of. Particular mission which was anesthetic to Rumsfeld's belief that no no no. The mission determines the coalition. The coalition should not determine the mission and that of course is. Writ. Small part of the ongoing conflict between Rumsfeld and Powell that describes a lot of the greater dysfunction leading up to war. So I WANNA. Keep actually pushing outwards here because I if there's one thing I, think that I wish your book had had a little bit more of it is the expanding array of players who get on board of this creating permission structure that begins to lead us towards war. So this coroner, the Bush administration, we spend a lot of time with and Powell is on the outer edge of that like he is the most. Skeptical of the Bush administration principles your read of him throughout the book is it. He opposes war and he never tells George W Bush that directly does correct that's seems like a tremendous tremendous advocation responsibility. Well, I, think that what he hoped first of all, it was his misreading of the room it was pals believes that this was such a cockamamie notion even talking about Iraq after nine eleven I mean he was there at the table at Camp David in September fifteen when wolf woods floated, what seem to him to be such a nutsy proposition and And he believed did had gone away. Then he comes to realize by the Axis of evil speech at the end of January in two thousand and two that actually Bush has really starting to move towards the Sea of Yes have had Tommy Franks draw up contingency war plans but even POW didn't really take them seriously by the spring and summer of two, thousand two, it was only then becoming evident to Powell Viet. Nam Did he erred in his judgment but the other problem the Powell had Israel was good relationship with Bush I mean Bush a needed pal more than the other way around win when Bush was running for president, he was constantly wrapping his arms around. Pal trying to get to campaign for him and empowering far and away the most popular member of the new administration. Bush was always aware of that and very very sensitized to the possibility. The Powell might be playing for a team of team George W. Bush. So there was a lot of tension that pervaded informed their relationship making it really not so easy for Powell to just want a waltz into the Oval Office and say, Hey, Mr President. I, think this is a bad idea. It's still nonetheless true the if that's what Powell really believed that war was a stupid idea which he did believe it would have been nice if he had said so I do hesitate. To Lay at Colin, Powell's blame for the invasion since he was after all the only major player to even say to, George, W Bush, you know if you break it, you own, it took to warn him of what could happen if he did invade. So he stands absolutely alone in the Bush administration in his willingness to to stick his neck out that far. But I WANNA push a little bit more on the Powell thing because something yearbook does get. Is the way. Powell is arguably the key domino in what creates the wider capacity for Bush to get political support to go to war so. Yearbook really isn't about the Democrats, and and they become I mean they are really aboard you're like he needs votes from Democrats in the Senate. He needs votes from them in in the House and Democrats are very unsure of what to do here for a long time and it is Powell. The turns out right Tom Daschle says after Powell's speech to the UN look you may not believe Dick Cheney may not be Jewish but I believe Colin Powell don't you and my understanding of basically the way the permission structure of getting built is that Bush decides to do this seems to really decide to do it pretty early on it is Bush's decision to do it That because of Powell's. Desire to remain in good standing in the administration Powell begins filtering himself to Bush right he's skeptical but he's on board Bush asks him are you with me and he says I am. And Blair as a sort of similar situation and Powell, and Blair this pressure on the Democrats because like you may not trust Bush Cheney and Rumsfeld but I mean Blair and Powell don't you trust them and then like you know your Hillary Clinton's your Dick Gephardt's etc like sign on board like the next row falls and I mean obviously, there are a lot of antiwar Democrats who who, who end up play here. But a lot of the key members of the Democratic Party and of signing on I remember I was a freshman in college. This was going on and I don't trust George, W. Bush. But when I was trying to think about this like with my like kind of dumb college brain. What was convincing to me was that I mean don't Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton and Tony Blair, and these have been at the top of foreign policy structures and intelligence structures. Don't they know more like should like isn't the fact that they're on this important and it seems like the way you describe it like the Colin, Powell's actually in many ways like the key lincoln that chain everybody keeps treating every person as if they're individual but in fact, they're not they're influenced by the person next most on the chart next to them and so in fact, it all just flows down from. Bush. It's not a bunch of like individual actress he look for independent assessments. Well. Stipulate a couple of things. One of them is that after all months before Powell's speech, a number of key Democrats including Hillary Clinton including Joe Biden had already given their vote of support for President Bush to use military force so they had already. Lay Down on those tracks, but it certainly true the Powell's speech made them feel better about having done. So now you can go sort of person my persons to why they did and I do. Detect the whiff of politics behind the motivations of a number of the Democrats particularly those were thinking about running for president at some point or another for the votes they cast. Thankful moment for Powell was as you site in January two, thousand three when Bush basically says will does say I think I need to do this? Are you with me I want you with me and that is the moment at which he couldn't Mr President gets a bad idea in no I'm not with you and I present in the book counterfactual had he actually said no, I'm not that would probably require that he resign it would have meant that. His senior staff resigned, it would have internment his UK counterpart Foreign Minister Jack Straw would have resigned if he resigned from the British cabinet than that would have really knocked down Blair's administration he would've he would have not received his own authorization vote. So we would not have had the UK created entirely different narrative entirely different kind of force against going to war Paulo believed Bush's mind was made up and and look you don't get to be a four star general. Usually by being a dissident that's not the way Powell was built but what to me was so poignant was the pal said to me I mean if you go to war, they call me a reluctant warrior but I, know how to do war. But of course, as Bush didn't ask him how to do war, he has them how to sell war and that's what talented up doing. Tell me Joe. Biden here because he's relevant of it and he has a somewhat unusual like actually is in power here he's a foreign relations committee. He's a key Democrat on on foreign policy. He has a resolution that is not the one it gets adopted. Tell me a little bit about what he ends up doing here and what you think the kind of pressures arguments that push him are. Biden was, as you mentioned, then the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and he had expressed concerns in the summer of two, thousand two, the this rushed war might be premature missing a few steps and so he wanted to kind of pump the brakes on debt and held hearings in the foreign relations. Committee that would discuss what the unintended. Consequences of war might be what kinds of things needed to happen for there to be war but no point really did actually questioned whether war was utterly misguided at no point. Did he ever express concern that Saddam might actually not have a weapons arsenal indus- pose a threat to the US quite the contrary he in fact, did talk about Saddam's weapons. Arsenal he referred to Saddam on September tenth two, thousand, one as a homicidal maniac. So he had accepted this conventional wisdom that had been germinating on Capitol Hill throughout the nineteen nineties that Saddam was true evil doer and at some point would probably need to do something about him. Having said, all that way tried to do was was along with Senator Dick Lugar to provide a different kind of resolution it would basically require Bush to slow things down require him to go back to the United Nations form additional authorization before the Senate intern would give them authorization to go to war and that ultimately failed. Nonetheless voted for believing. He said at the time in his sense said that depressed would just be using this resolution as leverage to force Saddam to let weapons inspectors back in the country. Bush told that and I think Biden was suckered by that because in fact, Bush, by this already with the inspectors, not yet on the ground really had no phasing them and did not expect. Victim they would find anything now because Bush thought there was nothing to find. He certainly did but he just believe that Saddam was such a master of deception visit Hans Blix and his band of Mary men and women UNMOVIC the the UN weapons inspection crew would simply just prove themselves not up to the task. Let's take a quick break right here, and then we'll be right back. Hi, I'm traveling and I'm the new host of the cut podcast from New, York magazine and the Vox media podcast network. Every Wednesday, the cut editorial team, and I will explore surprising provocative ideas about style, self culture, and power. In our first episode, we're looking at what it means to be optimistic in twenty twenty. You can listen and subscribe to the cut now on apple podcast or wherever you listen. So we should talk here because I, think in some ways, it's actually the central story of the book is what is happening with his WMD intelligence and so As, you say Biden and Bush and like the entire foreign policy establishment but also the the UK intelligence services, the American intelligence services, Hans Blix, and the weapons inspectors. Everybody believes Saddam has WMD's, and like there is consensus among literally everybody but among all these players and that he has been deceptive in the past and he is hiding something and. Yet our intelligence is actually pretty bad. And so there is this way in the story you tell that our assumption that he has them and he is hiding things combined with intelligence being bad is like the central driving force and all this can you talk a bit about like what we thought and what was wrong with what all of these services seem to think what happened was that after the first Gulf War weapons inspectors came in in nineteen, ninety one and Saddam admitted effort to conceal from them the weapons arsenals that they had illegally amassed. But once the inspectors did discover the nuclear facilities than Saddam basically said to his military scientists we've got. To come clean, they're still a worship out there on the on the Gulf and they could turn around and come destroy all. So let's come clean and in fact, by nineteen, ninety, two, Iraq had destroyed all of its weapons. Now, we did not know that at the time one reason we didn't know it was that Saddam was playing a rather sophisticated game in the neighborhood He was more than happy to have the next door neighbor Iran of believe that Iraq still had defensive capability with chemical weapons. So the Ron wouldn't come marching in into Baghdad. So there was that there was also the fact that. They behaved the Iraqi regime deceptively towards the weapons inspectors on the ground. We do ask that was because they had something to hide after all. It hadn't come clean until they were forced to before. But the real reason why they were being deceptive whether they didn't like the inspectors didn't like the inspectors because they didn't like international interlopers coming into their federal government buildings in snooping around they. Believed the the inspectors were spies and guess what they weren't wrong. The I was embedded with the inspections team. So there was all of this mutual distrust and what we gleaned from all that was they still have a weapon system and they have something to hide, and then ultimately win the last inspectors left at the end of nineteen ninety. The belief was well now that they're gone and. That Saddam is surely reconstituting his weapons program. Now, we did not have a shred of physical evidence to support that we only had a few sources scattered here and there some of them rather dubious one of them, a defector to, Germany. A former Iraqi chemical engineer who was code named Curveball who played into the biases of our CIA analysts who believed that Saddam had a biological weapons program, but they just could not find. It. And what Kirpal said well, of course, you can't find it. It's on wheels, their mobile they moved from one place to another, and that was this Aha moment that confirmed all of the biases in answered all the questions of so many analysts, but it was in so many ways representative of seeing to and two and calling twenty two on because that was the number that made the most sense to us and so. Our information was updated. It was threadbare. It was built largely on the belief that Saddam because you seem to be suspicious therefore had something to hide in almost every instance we saw into any scenario the dark possibility we would see trucks moving in and out of a chemical plant and we would say high those decontamination trucks trying to clean the floors from their chemical weapons that are there are produced when in fact they were just water trucks and at this kind of thing happened over and over, but it was never. Challenged and so by September of two thousand to win the Democrats in the Senate demanded an national intelligence assessment of what Saddam's weapons capabilities the director of the CIA George Tenet ordered one up gave them nineteen days to produce an in that rush of ninety days. The best they could do was basically gather all the old hypotheses, all of the old threadbare evidence and put it in more declarative language such that it now appeared to be a near certainty that Saddam had all these weapons when before we only had a best moderate confidence assessments that he did, it will never stopping being crazy to me how much based on source who has codename curveball like you call your source curveball Rush I like you're setting yourself up for this? Do not be true I. It is an irony bypass operation that clearly took place in and even those people who who wanted to believe would curve ball was saying or nonetheless deeply concerned by the fact that it's being de the German intelligence agency would not let the CIA or the DIA interview curveball have access to him of any kind, and so there were there lots of reasons to be concerned about him even a respective of the fact that the German intelligence agencies. Had cut ties with curve ball on September of the nights I believe of two thousand, one but they continue to use this Intel as if righteous because righteously confirmed their biases, this is part of the book that is so difficult to read. because. Every time there's a hole in the intelligence and the intelligence is full of holes. They paper it over with assumption. And I told you before we started that in this funny way, you've written a book about. Management and leadership when your information is bad. That you've disguised up book about the Iraq war, but it is to me this incredibly dangerous parable that when you don't know that much what you believe is going to decide everything because i. one of the things I was thinking about reading the book was that the Spotty Intelligence we had it still could have pointed to WMD's I still could not that that would have been a reason to invade. It's still wouldn't have been, but it's possible that knowing how little we knew maybe had reconstituted his programs. It's just that that's the only thing they could imagine was true and so every bit of evidence of deception became evidence that he was hiding more not that he was actually hiding having less. And the whole thing just stems from it turns out like the intelligence never mattered at all all that mattered was the assumptions people walked into the building with already and you have time after time Cheney or Rumsfeld our faith or somebody arguing down some poor CIA analyst or George Tenet telling them. That's not what the president wants to hear, and so I just was wondering why You track this whole intelligence debate and narrative but did ever madder was his ever actually about the information was ever an opportunity for any of this to be disproven and would it have mattered if it was or where the governing beliefs going into this? So strong? The. Given what our intelligence capabilities really are in a place like Iraq like this was all just for show they were just finding the rationale and they would have found it one way or the other. Yeah I do lay on on the belief that ultimately the intelligence didn't matter now I I do believe it would have mattered. Yes. They hit semi declared of lay. Told? The. President. We don't think he's got weapons. You know I think that could have mattered I. Think if they had done a fulsome search for truth and come to the conclusion that there is an entirely alternative explanation that might have mattered there were a couple of pieces of intelligence the did seem to turn the president said, for example, this notion that Saddam had that the Iraqi regime had purchased A. Mapping software of US cities that would be used for unmanned aerial vehicle program turned out to be a totally innocuous explanation for that. But the very notion of that that Saddam was purchasing maps of US cities to us with these These that could carry chemical weapons. For example, was a freaky thing on the other hand there were intelligence disputes being carried out before the president's is and he seems. Thoroughly, unmoved by them among these is this notion V. it's one of the nine eleven hijackers. Muhammed Onta had before eleven visited Prague and men up within a member of the Iraqi intelligence service. Now, if that were true, that is a wo- of true moments in an and yet the CIA after awhile came to the conclusion that no was probably not true at all while Dick Cheney's and that is absolutely bushes watching these these to. Essentially, debate these two entities, the office of the vice president on the one hand, the intelligence community on the other a no point. Hey, guys hang on. This is actually kind of important. Let us come to a decision right now what the hell is going on here. Instead I think that what Bush had landed on was you know what? Maybe that didn't happen, but it could you know I think that Saddam is such an evil doer and bin Laden such an evil doer that they will be bound up by their mutual hatred of united. States, and they could get together well to go to war on the notion of what could happen is again an infuriatingly ridiculous proposition but I do think that was what gave Bush locomotion far more than A. Full Study of the intelligence anish sober conclusions at the Intel as guiding us to war. As you say though throughout this entire thing just Cheney. Lies There are things that the tells him or at least no longer credible and he just keeps repeating them aloud at times George Tenet does this and so there are players in the administration I mean there there's a set of things where if I'm trying to be maximally generous. There wasn't enough information to make a call confidently and so they like they leaned in the direction like that they thought was true. But then bunch of things with there were and particularly Cheney just keeps going out and saying it anyway. I mean Cheney really seems to me to just lie the country into war. Is that unfair? By August two thousand two it's certainly not unfair demonstrably true because that's that's when Cheney goes before the veterans of foreign. Ruben Nashville and says simply stated there can be no doubt that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction will shut. There was plenty of doubt I. mean that's that's nuts and amd there was no one in the intelligence community who believed the there can be no doubt that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction and that Saddam was avidly pursuing nuclear weapons that was his interpretation of bit. He stated as if it were a given and so yeah. Yeah. No that absolutely qualifies as ally I should mention one other thing that I again to use the word infuriating when we're time but There was a circularity at work to in the intelligence community and that was well, we're going to go to war anyway. So we probably should err on the side, we shouldn't give Saddam. The benefit of the doubt we should probably air on the side of caution by leaning into the notion. That Saddam for example, has chemical weapons because after all if we don't, then what are our young men and women go into combat, not wearing chemical gear, not wearing mock gear because the assessment was well, we're not sure if he has chemical weapons. So now let's give the benefit of the doubt to that will. Then, of course, that becomes something that the president can point to sign to the National Intelligence Estimate our own people in the intelligence community have made clear that they have very high confidence Saddam has chemical weapons with only really making that assessment because they believe wars inevitable that it is a self licking ice cream cone. I WanNa hold on that because I think there's actually a really important part of the story and and part of its lessons. George W Bush and also to a large extent. Dick Cheney together. By making it very clear what they think and what they want. They affect everything they get, and that happens around them. George W.. Bush does not get say Colin Powell's on his view on things because Colin. Powell already knows where he thinks dip officials going to end up same thing happens with Condoleeza Rice and on intelligence you keep referring to Bush in the book as the first customer that George Tenet wants to see a to be more influential in the Bush administration that was in the Clinton administration, and so he gives Bush more and more of what he wants. He's gives him. More operatic dramatic briefings, he gives him more intense intelligence every kind of crazy threat. You can possibly put in a briefing whether or not. It's all that credible. He gives it to Bush and so Bush is getting fed everything that backs up his bias. He's and very little that doesn't the people who want to rise up around him are giving him what he wants to hear, and one of the deep warnings of this book is how much a president can bullshit themselves. By not recognizing clearly enough again, trying to be generous here what effect that they're lean is going to have on everybody else they warp reality. So on tenant I mean there are two factors at play here and I don't think either of them I don't think I'm being overly generous George. This but but neither of these factors has anything to do with personal ambition. I think he believed that. Had A sincere concern. With the intelligence that was being pulled at Finnair, by Aquaman, shelby and others that if the CIA were shut out of the president's decision, making process than the only information that the president would see was this hackneyed bullshit via on less than honest actors were coming up with. So he believed rightly or wrongly the by remaining relevant by being in the room, he would be able to affect the outcome but that required as you say, sort of feeding the beast feeding the the the interest of the first customer is the second thing also was. Tenant was yet another one of these believe the war was inevitable and so why not push all this the president's way and by the summer of two thousand two, he's telling people around him. I. Think we're going to be going to war possibly as early as December so we need to start getting ready for this. Now you mentioned briefly Condoleeza Rice and I feel and she plays a major role as the person who's the duty obligation you could argue was to bring in front of the President in the Oval Office a descending point-of-view just one person who would say. Mr President I think it's a bad idea now by the way for whatever else has flaws were President Obama would have thought to do that. Anyway I mean you can. Of course, argues it Obama was are overly cautious insisted on his many practically a cacophony voices. But in any event I could see Obama I could see George Herbert, Walker Bush, George W. Bush, himself did not. Say You. Guys, should we the other side Bush never did that and Candi? Rice never felt that it was apparently her obligation to bring someone in the one who comes the closest is Colin Powell and other than Colin Powell the only Americans that I know of who actually had a discussion with the president about about the inadvisability of going to war or his twenty year. Old Twin daughters apart from that you know he heard from King Abdullah of Jordan but Bush's view. Yeah. Okay. I get it. You don't want war. You know your neighborhood it'll be roughly support US nonetheless but Condoleeza Rice as election of of duty to to bring president the newsy perhaps did not want to hear but needed to hear to me really one of the. Significant events that did not take place in the to war it fills me with so much rage the way. So many of these people have been rehabilitated the way George Tenet got a presidential medal of freedom despite completely fucking botching this the way Condoleeza Rice people are talking about. Would it be great if John McCain ticket in two thousand and eight call Powell was at the Democratic National Convention George W Bush you know wasn't he a good guy right after nine eleven one of the things that really comes through to me in your book and I don't WanNa get too ahead of myself and in windings out to trump though I, am going to later in our conversation but. Is How dangerous true believers can be. Right. So many of the trump administration's flaws and failures and catastrophes are driven by cynicism and corruption. But in the Bush administration, a lot of it is driven by idealism and true belief and like almost messianic complex and before coronavirus, they had done more damage not trump before coronavirus. There is a much much much larger death toll maybe still is on the Bush Administration's Ledger. And the idea that they did it with all intentions, some of them. It's not enough. It's not nearly enough and yet it's amazing. What American politics will put behind it right like. So many of these guys and by the way. So many of the like the neoconservative complex like now they're all the never trumpers and they get feted by the left there is never been in accounting for this not a real one no, no, no. Judy Miller lost her job I. Guess You could say, but apart from that you're hard pressed to find anyone in the military industrial complex in the intelligence community in the political world who was truly penalized by. Say that it costs Hillary Clinton the nomination to to Barack Obama, in two thousand eight but still she stuck around. And had a pretty successful political career beyond that I just think that when we talk about belief as we should also recognize. A corollary to believe so often is or the other side of the coin is ignorance in. So it's it's easy to forget that the Bush administration came in with a foreign policy team is it was as experienced on its face as did he had been amassed in quite some time and yet in their own white, they were quite ignorant. They were Republicans who had been out. Of Office or a longtime Donald Rumsfeld, it was argued over and over was the most experienced secretary of defense in in American history because after all he had been secdef once before not dimension chief of staff, he had also been out of government for something like twenty five years and was still possessed of a Cold War mentality not to mention a basic distrust of bureaucracy but. Knew nothing about al Qaeda and didn't take briefings on the subject in, and then you go with all of the cold warriors from from the first Bush Administration Among Them Dick Cheney and Colin Powell I would add to that and Wolfowitz, and they're still in the way that most people do these things kind of fighting the last war is rather than looking into the new. Ones that they're. So the belief in a lot of ways is is also what the elect. Serb that fills in a vessel is otherwise empty with ignorance and and so much of what happens in Iraq parable is believe where simply on a search for truth would have been preferable I wanNA talk about another continuity I see between the Republican Party of today under trump and of Bush. We've been talking here about the to go to war. Once they go to war, they also do it catastrophically They have no real planning for the aftermath they push out. Check General Eric Shinseki after it gives them more honest account of how many troops are going to need. A lot of is driven by this contempt. The Bush administration still has for Government Rumsfeld treats Defense Department with contempt. They all treat bureaucrats beneath them with contempt, the belief of the UN. And the UN inspectors have missed everything you and is treated with contempt than the Iraqi civil service is treated with contempt as an enemy. You then have a couple of years later, the financial crisis after they treat all financial regulators and the idea that you would actually need to regularly that history with contempt. Now of the trump administration, which is botched krona virus terribly because it treats government's contempt. One thing that just feels to me like a profound through line in all of this is when you put people in charge of running a government who they themselves. And do not respect government where they do not like and do not respect government competently as the case of the Bush administration with are pretty good at talk in the government or incompetently as in the case of the trump administration, you get catastrophic outcomes because you actually need government run by people who think government does a good job does that feel fair? Unfair? Do KNOXVILLE's it feels very apt I. I think that. It was one thing that is the constitution through line in the political career of George W. Bush going back to when he first rain for Congress in the nineteen seventies is he would always talk about freedom and always talk about individual responsibility and these were sort of core themes of his the belief that not only everyone deserves to be free but once they did so it's best that things be left up to the individual. And they would have to be responsible for their actions that plays into Iraq. So Bush's Bush's notion on the Iraqis will joyously coalesce around the democracy they will. They will cast aside any sort of sectarian misgivings and the opportunity to be free will be the straw that stirs the drink a corresponding to that as a belief held by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld that we don't do windows the mixed the metaphor We. GotTa take our hands off the bicycle seat. Let the Iraqis learn how to ride for themselves, and so the notion of governance, which is Messy in which Colin Powell and the State Department warns you know would be maybe catastrophically messy would require some kind of government that arguably a military government that would sit in for years at a time was anathema to this Republican Administration thought this is. This is exactly the way bureaucrats think and they have no idea these these pinheads at the State Department the the Iraqis are more than willing to figure this out on their own, as early as able bodied geniuses like Chalabi and and so I think it's I think you can establish a you know a real connective tissue between that. Republican administration in the current went there. There are some very, very crucial. Distinctions I. BELIEVE I? Mean there was a largely absence of Maine. In the Bush administration that you see with the trump administration and that does come into play because Bush when way out of his way to to tell the Muslim. Community you are not our enemies. Yours is a great religion That's certainly nothing you would hear from this administration, but in terms of. How they see governance for all of their supposed- experience and expertise they tended to the tobacco way they tended to believe the the governance was messy and therefore undesirable rather than messes messy and therefore desirable and playing around this idea. So when I want to push on it a little bit more because I'm glad you don't think it's crazy but. You Talk A lot we've not talked about Donald Rumsfeld in here. But one of the ways Rumsfeld really plays into the narrative. Is. His whole thing is it. He's going to reform the military his going to show the you don't need these heavy for parents is huge troop deployments. You can do a lighter faster quicker. He's incredibly cutting anybody who disagrees with him their approach to a lot of the CIA. Analysts is simply that you're being too careful. You refused to see what's right in front of your face you won't take. The obvious step forward right you won't you frame this in terms of imagination, right? You won't use your actual machination than they like this little team in the CIA called red cells. That's basically doing like speculative fiction and you have this happened a bunch of different times and what's striking about it is it's two different modes of Republican governors coming from the same place I would say the trump. Administration's attitude towards the government is that they hate it and their hero Robert Wright they've come in and either they don't want to deal with the questions governance at all or they're basically trying to extract things out of it for themselves in their friends and in the Bush administration even with the people who are taking their jobs in governance more seriously they believe they were there to fix it. In a way right to like lately, they had contempt for it. It was hidebound peer chronic. It was slow. It missed it. The UN was useless. It had become a joke and in all these cases, they treat these agencies institutions with so much contempt. They cannot hear what they're being told when the UN inspectors increasing you're saying we are not finding anything they just think that is evidence of how. And incompetent they are when the Defense Department, the military general say like we will need a lot more to do this. They just think that is evidence about inefficient government is. And so we have two successive Republican administrations. I mean, at the end of the Bush administration, he's got a twenty five percent approval rating when the election happens, he's got a debacle of a war of financial crisis. Now, we're in the trump administration towards the end of the first term and a hundred and seventy thousand people are dead from coronavirus and unemployment is ten point three percent, and there's a reason this keeps happening if you put. Like if you put people don't want to run governments in charge of governments, then governments need to be run. Well, they're not going to be run well, and everybody wants to create this real distinction between Bush and trump like this is the this is the continuity to me like you can express your government in ways that are active or passive. You can express it in ways that ideological transactional but if you are. If you build an administration on top of it in general, just not going to go well. Well, let's not forget the Bush came into office with those around him Brian. This was the first Harvard Business School presidency that we would seem the witness and experience, and so the the belief was that somehow this would amount to a kind of more efficient government, a quasi privatization of government but built on the superior business model there was A. Lot in the way of costumer around all of this, the whole were no more. You know not wearing coats and ties in the Oval Office in eating pieces on the on the floor in the manner of the Clinton administration no more meetings going on until all hours of the night. So the poor secret service people can't go home to their families. The there was a kind of crispness hyper efficiency that seemed to make people believe this is the way a government is supposed to run chop chop efficiency but as it turned out that really wasn't the case at all and I do think that. There are a few different things work in. You've mentioned one of them relating to Rumsfeld and and his belief that he was smarter than any bureaucracy. If this is something been there a long time without him having built into, there must be something grievously wrong with it. One, of president, Bush's great flaws that I will be one of the defining aspects tragically. So of his presidency was his intellectual curiosity and and it wasn't so much that he despised government is just he didn't really want to get his hands dirty with it. He convinced himself and others around him. That was somewhat beneath does details would be left to others in it's not as if Bush went around the way, the trump administration has been doing basically. shaking down each and every government agency not because they have a more efficient model in mind but because they're deep state in there in the way of trump and his cronies getting what they want Bush wasn't so much doing that but he also really was not eager to have his hands on the levers of power. He believed that the these short clip meetings and delegating everything to everybody else and in him being out of the oval. Office by four PM so that he could go exercise and hang out. With. His wife and daughters was in fact, the appropriate way to govern. But there simply were times especially in the run-up the war especially after nine eleven also during Hurricane Katrina during the financial crisis when only win the whiff of defeat was in his nostrils did he come to realize the state's income to be a more energetic more activist governor or president unless and until those moments presented themselves he was a very curiously detached executive and is sort of an answer to one of what was like the ideological mysteries of the Republican Party where you have this party thinks government can't do anything right and can't run a DMV but of. Course, it can pretty easily invade Iraq and rebuild a liberal democratic society in the aftermath, which is simply that if you think the government is actually standing in the way of people living their lives and doing things well, then you actually don't think that's a hard problem that the idea simply that you don't need to do that much because people want freedom and they want to build civil society and so like there was never a contradiction say George W Bush's mind. The actual idea was that you just don't have government screwing everything up and so it's not as hard as running the NBA. Yeah. No I mean I think that's That was basically Bush's view and I think he really, he never heard Bush and all the years that I knew him repeat the Ronald Reagan Line. Of the the most dreaded words one can hear on from the government and I'm here to help. But he did basically believe that which governs least governs best and It's it's curious though I mean I in the nineteen ninety s when he was governor of Texas, he would tell. Me that he viewed himself as an activist governor. Now, of course, it was constitutionally weak office somebody what he's really just trying to say is, Hey, I'm relevant. You know a more relevant than the state constitution will allow me to be but the reality was that he brought to the white. House. The same kind of view he had in Texas, which is like I'm going to concentrate on three or four things, and that's it and. There's there's a lot more going on in the government a lot more going on in people's lives than three or four things can cover and we found that after hardaway one of the things book tracks and we've touched on a little bit here is how much Influence it had on how the entire rest of the government operated for Bush to have such strong predilections towards one believing. Saddam. Hussein. Was a super bowl novel threat and to that once there was liberation Iraqis would. Be. Ecstatic about freedom and be ecstatic about democracy and taken into their own hands. And I WANNA draw. Now, this question to krona virus, you have a president now MR pandemic who his signals have consistently been. He does not want to deal with this problem. And does not want this problem escalated in terms of its severity. So, knowing that the president has those views on the virus self, what is that likely to do to the people around him to the agencies that are responsible for for responding to this? Like what is the? What is like the Matt, the management lesson of Iraq for coronavirus well I, mean the. Very. Fundamental. A very basic lesson to Iraq saga is one that this administration cannot possibly learn because it is really anathema to the ethos of this administration. That is the truth matters a search for the truth matters. President trump has made absolutely clear. Did if the truth is politically inconvenient from him for him, it's not just that he doesn't WanNa. Hear it. It's he will punish you for talking about it and I've written about this recently in the New, York Times magazine Director of National Intelligence have been fired because they either stated or permitted to let stand assessments that, for example, Russia interfered in the two thousand sixteen election with the intention of swinging the election over the trump and intend to. Do So in two thousand twenty as well. I do think that the Bush did not avidly pursue the truth, but he did not try to sell a truth that had did not try to punish people who brought him the truth nobody's heads rolled because they told told the president. ABC would as we established earlier with maybe some heads had role but but the president's President Bush never punish people for inconveniencing him the way this president has repeatedly manifested in. So I think. That there are important lessons institutionally to learn about them about Iraq, and by the way to be fair to Sarah's entities Lawrence, the intelligence community in the US military I. Think they actually have done what they could to go through a lessons learned and go through self-inspection as a result of the terrible mistakes that were made in the run-up to war but that the. Citywide Washington wide that has failed to be the case even even those lessons had been ingested, this president would not be paying attention to them. Do you think that some of the? I guess ideological lessons of the Iraq war have penetrated I mean we were talking about Joe Biden earlier. And In that moment of post nine eleven war planning the way I would describe where a lot of those mainstream Democrats worry is one they felt the victory of Yugoslavia and Biden had been key and getting Clinton to intervene there and they had stopped humanitarian disaster. They felt the failure of Rwanda very deeply. And Post Iraq and I think he saw very much in Brock Obama's presidency. There was a real sense of their real limits on Americans on America's power like things people remembered just before had stopped being that the worst thing we did was to not intervening and had become the worst thing we did was to intervene, and so you know ultimately Obama doesn't go into Syria despite Assad crossing the red line and so on. Where would you say like the Washington Foreign Policy Blob is on these questions compared to when Bush was empowered. Do you think the assumptions about what America can and can't do in the world has changed? I think that the subject of what should the Iraq saga tell us about our role in the world and in informing. US foreign policy has been studiously avoided by by both parties. Really. There has not been I, mean it looking just let's be real. Does happen the like some fulsome conversation happens about American foreign policy but it but from Vietnam lesson among Democrats was okay we're done with war than the first Gulf War happens and then perhaps even more poignantly. Reference Bosnia and Kosovo, and the Democrats think actually we can make a positive difference in the world and for that matter Bibi, we should have made a positive difference in the world when it came to the humanitarian crisis in Rwanda then Iraq happens in now we have recoiled again of the Obama Administration did now there is a there is an immense bandwith of possibilities in. US. Foreign policy between the freedom. Agenda. Espoused. In Bush's inaugural address with two thousand five, which was basically hell. Yes. To Middle East adventurism and beyond between that and the total isolationism of the trump presidency where the posture is America first into hell with our NATO allies and everything else. But that has not been explored. I do think going get the one opportunity for that to be explored was win the NATO led bombing of Libya occurred. That was certainly opportunity to say, well, what happens the day after what what role should America play in that day after and it's just remarkable how deafening silence was on that particular topic it. Just. Felt to me like a moment where we should consult all the took place in Iraq, all we learned or should have learned from it and applied it to to to that experience and and yet really just come out of that is Democrats not wanting to talk about it anymore and the Republican Benghazi. A million times but without really any coherency ideologically to that argument, I mean this is a place where I feel like I genuinely don't quite know what your Biden will do and and I say that I've been on calls with him and and of heard him talk and. He thinks about foreign policy. I. I. Think it's something. People don't quite rock about him. But as you talked about four, he was foreign relations chair. He talks about legislation he's passed but you know if you read his books for instance, he's more focused on say of the where he did pushing a Clinton gone to Bosnia Kosovo and so. He naturally thinks about what he can do to restore America's role in the world. He is somebody who believes intuitively in like America's the indispensable nation. And I also think he's at least somewhat shea send by the failures of Iraq and his own failure around Iraq and and mistakes he made. And so I just don't think I know what Joe Biden thinks. The scope of possible involvement for America is in foreign crisis you know in a situation where China's attacking America obviously you defend your your homeland but. You know if China invaded Taiwan right there are all these. There's still a lot of unrest in the Middle East. It seems much less clear to me what the center of even the Democratic Foreign. Policy Establishment thinks limits of American power are than it used to be I think it used to be that they thought to had basically worn on but there were limits to American domestic political support but now I think they're still there's both a a feeling that they didn't do enough in the Obama years but a sense that. Iraq really does show that there's weakness here and I'm curious if you have a different view on that now a similar to yours. But of course that views basically, we have no freaking idea and the view of mine is largely informed by the recognition that. I agree with you that Biden feels chastened by what took place a not totally convinced that he's done anything in the way of a well here the things that I would do differently other than wouldn't trust. George W Bush don't know that he sees our place in the world differently that he sees how we should be viewing a dictator like Saddam Hussein. I just don't know when I think that the. President Biden who would know political ambitions anymore he's now president would probably ask questions. More. Acutely. than he did back then I think he would assume things less. But how in the end of that would guide his action if if one of our allies were. were invaded in the Middle East. If if if the Iranians completely took over Iraq and then from there were posing a threat to Saudi Arabia or something I mean I it's it's really really hard to know. It's hard to know for a reason I. Mean, these are these are difficult questions, but it's also just the case. The America as a whole has dodged any and all opportunities to talk about America's role in the world better rorick actually had mentioned this to me years ago before he was even thinking about running for president did he'd been reading a lot of foreign policy books in and he believed that this was territory is the Democrats ought to own and certainly the on the gaping void of ideas the Republican Party has on the subject would afford that opportunity to the Democrats but it's cleared me there's anything close to a consensus among Democrats as to. Just how we should be leaning into a to moments of crisis overseas I guess good place to come to a close. Let me ask you a question. We always used done the podcasts, which is what your books you've read the recommend to the audience only recently at at coming out from under working on this book, which consumed a few years of my life have been able to go back and read. Books have been recently published or published a couple of years ago. Lovely novel the Martha in Biracial. Kushner. Who Crate book the flame throwers about a woman in a women's prison. On the West Coast that was published two years ago she's just a master of novelist and I cannot recommend that enough. More recently, published a couple books the false caused by by Dombi, which a really really wonderful book about white supremacy in the confederate memory, and basically in a very compact in brisk way utterly gives the lie to the notion of the some like myself in the south grow up with That honoring civil war veterans is really just about honoring heritage, but is really about the promotion of white supremacy, and then finally there's a book by a guy named outs, our stamp called young heroes of the Soviet Union the such an off the wall memoir I've just really found it so. Captivating about. Him and his His Russian grandfather who happened to be less towns bodyguards. Stalin's drivers in his relationship with him and it's am it's it is a window onto the world of the dwindling Soviet Empire in Russian today did I just found so appealing on so many fronts I recommend as well Robert Draper thank you very much my pleasure. Thank you Robert Draper for being here. Thank you for being here. Thank you to Karma for researching Jeffey Gal for producing editing. As media PODCAST, production.

Saddam Hussein Bush Ezra Saddam Hussein president Iraq Iraq United States Dick Cheney Colin Powell Bush CIA Afghanistan Paul Wolfowitz America Middle East George W. Bush Donald Rumsfeld George
War of the Worlds


35:42 min | 2 years ago

War of the Worlds

"What happens when a tornado sweeps through you go to the seller in you claim to the pillars until the tornado passes and sustain thing in this conflict. People are going to the pillars in their soul. That of define them, given them sustenance and support all their lives. Funny. Fiat divide about to explode wide open. Again, as a protest movement has turned into a fight the Daf day of air strikes inside Yemen by Saudi jet. Ron supports one side. Saudi Arabia supports the other. You're listening to through line from NPR. Will we go back in time to understand the present? Hey, I'm Rhonda. I'm rooting out of Louis and on today's show the history of the Sunni Shia divide. So if you follow the news in Yemen or Syria or really anywhere in the Middle East. You've probably heard about the Sunni Shia divide in a slum. It's sort of a catch all phrase used to explain a lot of the conflicts happening there. The how much do you actually know about the divide like where began for example, what the fights even about or how big the gap actually is between these two sects of slum. Now before we go any further, we should mention that this topic is especially close to home for us. I'm Palestinian and Sony. I'm Iranian and Shia and we've talked a lot about how frustrating it is to see headlines about the Sunni Shia divide, the seemed to be written in a vacuum with no sense of the history behind it or to hear politicians talk about it in the same broad sweeping way. The Middle East is going through a transformation that will play out for generation rooted in conflicts that date back millennia so has this conflict been going on for millennia or. Or are the divisions rooted in events and conflicts much closer to today to answer those questions. We've gotta go way back to the beginning. And retrace how we got to where we are thirteen hundred years of history in about thirty minutes. It's a lot we know. But we're going to break it down for you into four key moments. The epic battle of Carmela and the year six eighty the moment when this divide I turned deadly the SAFA be takeover of Iran in the sixteenth century, which established a Shia empire the Sykes PICO agreement and the early twentieth century, which divided up the Middle East into the countries. We see today on the rise of political Islam at the end of the twentieth century. Hi, won the battle of capita. Let's turn back the clock to the seventh century where in the dusty hot desert of Arabia. Islam is the new big religion. And one guy the prophet. Muhammad is spreading not religion throughout the region. Just a reminder in his slum the prophet. Muhammad is the last messenger and prophets and by God to guide humanity. But he was also a political leader and basically United all of Rabia into one single state. There's a lot more we could say about him. But the moment when this story begins is at the prophets deathbed and took ten days him to die. He was about sixty two which was along lifers time on what's amazing is that after so many battles, and so many assassination attempts on him. He was actually dying of natural causes. In fact, it sounds very much today. Like bacterial meningitis lasted ten days. It was a slow painful death agonizing headaches shooting up through the shoulders. He. He was in and out of fever. Everybody. Was there, you know, a sick room in the Middle East of the time was not like a hospital room in the west. Now, it was it was just full of people. And there was one question that was on everybody's mind. Who would succeed him? Their signs that Mohammed was all too aware of what would happen after his death. One to dish. In has that his last words were oh, God have pity on those who succeed me. But then what did he mean by that was an expression of humility or did Mohammed with his final breath for see the terrible saga of blood and tears to come. There is no way of knowing as the old Rubik saying has it only God knows for shoe this author Lesley Hazleton, she wrote a book called after the prophet. The epic story of the Shia Sunni split. So as the prophet is dying. The community is anxious unsure who would lead them after he was gone and the uncertainty came down to this should the new leader be selected by vote or should a family member inherit the role that question led to a lot of ugly infighting among Muslims at the time. They Slavic empire was starting to spread throughout the Middle East. So there was a lot of. Of power at stake and the person who would succeed Muhammed the Calif would hold all of that power. By the way, Calif is an Arabic word meaning ruler. And the kingdom that Calif rules over is a caliphate. So the prophets cousin. His name is ally has a bunch of followers who think he should be the first Calif that he should inherit the spot as a family member. But the people who wanted to vote in Calif they went out. So Elliot's not the first kale of three other people rule before he gets the chance to eventually he does become Calif, but he's assassinated pretty quickly into his rule, which basically crushes the hopes of all of his followers who by this point are known as the Shiite ally. Or the Shia then a new guy named Malwa takes over as Calif. I wish you were better known in the west because without him. I'm not sure that his Lum would have survived Leslie says, unlike ally who was thought of as this. Honorable of standing leader. None of this applied to. He wanted. He was ruthless about how forced it. His governors were up. Saddam Hussein types basically completely ruthless autocrats. And while we are by the way with known as the son of the liver eater. Yep. You heard that? Right. Son of the liver eater on the liver eater in question was Hynd who had been the wife of one of Muhammad's main opponents when Muhammad was still alive, and is this the this is the hint that allegedly eight hundred eight hundred never. Store. Okay. That's going into too much detail. Sorry tangent. Okay. So under a we as rule the followers of lead, the Shia were not treated, well, especially in Iraq. Where a lot of shield lived at the time under a Li Iraq had been the center of the Muslim empire. So a lot with at stake there eventually while we dies and appoints his son. Yes, he'd as the next Calif. He turns out to be even more ruthless than his father and under. Yes. He'd the repression of the Shia in Iraq gets even worse. This sets the stage for a battle that. I don't think it's far fetched to say alters. The course of Slavic history. Here's how the story goes. A group of Shia who are living in Iraq became really frustrated with the rule of Zied who remember is the Calif at this time. So they called analysis on the prophet. Muhammad's grandson his name is Hussein to travel across the desert from Arabia to Iraq to rescue them has sane by this point had taken up the mantle as the leader of the Shia knock your mind, all these political feuds had pretty much nothing to do with any religious disagreement. There were really about power who should rule and how they should rule on one side. You have a small band of Shia almost all of whom were descendants of the prophet. Muhammad led by the prophet's grandson Hussain storming towards Iraq to confront Yezid. And on the other you have a massive sunny army waiting for them. So let's just say the odds were stacked against the Shia will Lesley Hazleton pick it up from here. And here's where begins a passion story that is equal empower islam- to the passion of Christ. In Christianity takes three weeks to travel like him, which is how everybody traveled that from mecca to Iraq. A during those three weeks warning after warning the Iraqis will betray you their mouths are big their sorts or not. Repression will will out turn back to back and every time he would not aknowledge the warning and continue on famous saying man travels in darkness and his destiny travels to board him was this heels on his part was this naive on his part to believe all the promises coming to from Iraq. Or did he know what he's doing? Did he know that he was traveling towards his own death and that of all his family? In other words, was he deliberately sacrificing himself. He reaches Iraq. His aides men prevent him from reaching his followers who by that time given incompletely in any case and here in a small and follow us basically besieged on a bluff not far from new faces river, but not within reach of the water. And what happens next lasted ten days the instructions as to starve them out by thirst them, one by one they will capitulate and surround them with an army of what would be four thousand men. So you have the eve of the final day, and those of his men who still remain Hussein said to the I hereby absolve you from your oath of allegiance to me. Go home now undercover of darkness get out used the night as a camel to right away. These men of it's only me he said, and of course, they stayed at. This will never leave him that night. He took off his chain mail, and he put on a white seamless robe that is a trout, and they burned incense anointed themselves, basically prepared themselves for deaths and one of Hussein stores said, and we knew them the final tribulation had come apart. On the tenth day voted about a love nearly all the male members family have been killed one by one he wrote a load into battle against four thousand course, was cut down. There were thirty three sword. Cuts on Hussein's body, the soon as he fell from his voice. Hundreds of men fell upon his body. Just hacking. The head was cut off. In fact, the heads of all seventy two of his. The women and children were killed, and they were all taken to Damascus along with the seventy two heads. Basically what had happened was that all the members of Muhammed's blood family? His blood relatives is immediate blood relatives had been killed by other. Man that story is intense. I never heard it told like that. When I was a kid. I actually heard that story just like that. I mean. Yeah. No. It's such a central part of being Shia to know the story, and what happens Caballo turns her sane into a real martyr figure for most Shia, you know, as I understand it made him a legendary figure for centuries. Come and that mythology is gonna fuel the growth of the Shia movement all over the world. Support for NPR comes from male champ who wants you to know that they do all kinds of marketing to help small businesses grow from building beautiful landing pages to re-targeting and audience management. And of course, great Email marketing. So while it may seem like male champ has outgrown their own name that just means their business has grown male champ. They do more than male now that says has lost all its territory. What happens to the people left behind? She chose to taika so fat that she should science area on raw. And what about their children? How it ends a new series on bed. Part two here. Come the south of EADS. After the battle of Caballo the most important date on the Shia calendar. Quickly became a day called era. A comma Mauritian of the battle of Karbala now that day doesn't exist in any Isamic scriptural tanks. It's a cultural spiritual experience that's very unique to share them this valley Nassir dean of Johns Hopkins University school of international studies. And as he pointed out to us. This battle was huge. Because it gave the Shia something to rally around a battle that remember was centered on succession, politics, not a difference of opinion about theology for few centuries after the battle of Garba. The Shia were in the minority, and basically had very little political power. So the main political authority in the world really from the beginning was in the hands of the Sunnis despite that sonny's, and she has lived for centuries and relative peace. Until in Mongol, invasion, destroyed a Basset Calif eight and had ruled from Baghdad and over the next few centuries power pass from empire to empire in the Middle East ending. What's now known as the golden age of Islam in the sixteenth century three major empires controlled the region, the moguls from India, the Ottoman Turks and the Safin's like most of the Muslim world, the moguls and Ottomans or Sunday, but the Sappho Viet's or Shia, and they set out to concrete Iran, which brings us to the third moment on our journey a moment that changed everything yet again because while today Iran is pretty much the center of Shia Islam up until the savvy derived Iran was almost entirely sunny until the savage came. Iran, actually was the seat of Sunni philosophy theology high learning, but once the savvy took over they. Began to declare Iran as Shia, partly because they were share and much like medieval European princes wants to cover a territory, the identity of the prince becomes the identity of the territory, and partly also they wanted to create a differentiation with the two other rival empires on the borders. This was news to me. I mean, did you know about this teen? No, not not until we talked valley. Nassir? I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. Same for me growing up. I was always led to believe like so many Ryan's that. Iran had always been Shia. And it turns out that so many of the early Sunni scholars were actually Persian like Elba, Heidi L Zadie. And so the natural next question is how did this have turned such Sunni country? Shia you reward those who convert by patronage and you punish those who don't convert by denying them resources. Well, actually, there was another way to. By force. And that was really brutal the Shias persecuted sonny's and attacked anyone who refused to convert a lot of lead was spelt. And by the time. It was all said and done, AVI. It's were successful. Iran had become a Geordie. Shia. An important thing to note here is that the vast majority of Iranians are not Arabs ethnically. There's some variation of Persian or Turkic, and this is in Sydney Arab-dominated region. So now, they're not only ethnic outsiders, their ideological outsiders to says, she has now have a country a military, an ethnic identity. I remember ritual question about the impact of the Sunni Shia divide on modern complex. Well, this is one Iran as we know it as a solidly Shia state with political ambitions begins to take shape, and that sets the stage for the divisions. We see today Arab Sydney any Ron. Uneven. Shia. So a couple of centuries after the SAFA vs arrived in Iran. A new religious movement emerges in Arabia, but shakes up the political order of the region. It's called what have is them. Were hub ISM is a revivalist strain of Sunni orthodox theology that was born in the harsh impoverished deserts of what's now Saudi Arabia, and this movement allied itself with one of the most prominent clans Arabia, the Saudis, you might recognize the name because later on after conquering all of Arabia. They named it after themselves one of the characteristics of hobby was to go back to the time of the prophet. By the way, this is Steve Coll dean of Columbia University's journalism school, and author of the Pulitzer prize winning book, go spores and to preach that true Islamic faith and practice required. Imitating the faith and practice present in the seventh century during the life of the prophet, and that all of the evolutions of his Lomb since then had been forms of corruption. And this. Includes all of Shia Islam. So fast forward to the twentieth. Century two powerful oil rich countries emerge in the Middle East. Sheron the descendants of the savvy DHS and were happy Saudi Arabia. Their rivalry will redefine the Sunni. Shia divide and fuel a series of bloody conflicts across the region. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from mayo clinic when the search for the right answer becomes the most important journey of your life. When a clear diagnosis would mean the world to you when finding new options could help you find hope, you know, where to go mayoclinic, find out more. At mayo clinic dot org slash answers. America has a long history of white nationalism and its influence reaches farther than you might think you can go back, and you can read the New York Times coverage you can read Hitler saying it was America who taught us we should not open our arms equally other nations this week on it's been a minute from NPR. Part three Sykes PICO. Now, we're in the early twentieth century and the world's about to enter the war to end all Moore's. World War One on one side or the allied powers, including the US, Great Britain, and France, and on the other side, Germany and most importantly for us Turkey, which was then called the Ottoman empire. While the side of the US allies. They won the war. The Ottoman empire collapsed and all of the land controlled in the Middle East goes to the allies the longer historical context is that Britain and France having chipping away for decades at the Terret of Bilton empire. This is Daniel Neipp assistant, professor in the center for contemporary Arab studies at Georgetown, University, waltz Britain and fronts than do is think about how they're going to be dividing the Ottoman empire. How the take control of its a the post will set them looked like. So what happens is these two guys, sir? Mark Sykes and Francois George PICO from England and France sit down at a table and decide to come up with an agreement to divide up. What we call today the Middle East like Turkey like a thanksgiving Turkey. Yeah. They just carved up into new nation-states it cut through whether it was tribes ethnic groups religious factions. This is Robin Wright, a fellow at the US institute of peace and the Woodrow Wilson. The National Center for scholars there's a famous quote when sir Mark Sykes was explaining to them prime minister asquith how to define the region. And he said he wanted to draw a straight line from the all the way to the K and Kirkuk cutting through what we know today, a Syria, Iraq and Jordan so going back to something. Daniel nip said, this arbitrary line was a serious problem because in countries like Syria and Lebanon, the populations were actually really diverse we have Sony, of course, we have ship populations. We also have various or considered heterodox of sheets from Islam. So we have the jury's fife. The allocution community foresight speeco these communities were governed by empires and the rulers were far away in distance cities. So for the most part people could maintain their local customs and diversity was kind of just a fact of life, but Sykes PICO disrupted all of that. Suddenly arbitrary boundaries created by the west or superimposed onto these centuries old communities, and authoritarian rulers were put in power who in most cases were propped up by the west so tensions began to build between different communities, including and Chia that used to get along pretty well still for a while these new countries function relatively okay, but then in the nineteen fifties and sixties those tensions boiled over a revolutionary wave swept through the region and autocrats began to be removed included toz, generally, these uprisings resulted in leftists secular dictators gaining control including in Iraq where Saddam Hussein eventually came to power. But the problem was these leftist, secular, dictators, although they were keeping the peace. There were also of you'd as propped up by outsider, and this frustrated the people in the region, some of these leftist movements were tarred sort of the. People who wrote these books have European names. Europeans are the ones who drew these fake borders. They're the ones who set up this Toronto government. This is Evan Barrett. Former deputy director of the Syrian emergency task force the legacy of colonialism and the sort of perception of the west as belligerent overtime lended. A real skepticism about secular movements in this context. It becomes almost brats natural full position to these secular socialist authoritarian regimes to take on a difference, an alternative ideological Hugh. This serves as the backdrop for something big that happens in nineteen seventy nine this rates were live with liberally. Millions of supporters residents revolutionaries soldiers driving through the streets, waving pistols rifles machine gun. Iranians continued to vote today on the newest Lama constitution. There's little question that one supreme power will be the. The IOT on the any the Iranian revolution. Erupts Iranian cleric. I told the Khomeini assumes power in Iran, and he becomes the leader of a movement that takes hold of the Middle East. Political Islam the turn to political Islam is usually mapped onto the Iranian revolution in nineteen seventy nine which marks the first time that Islam burst onto the scene as a political force, and then seems to become increasingly prominent cross the region. All right. This is a big deal because Iran, which Ashir is the leader of this political on movement and kind of an unlikely leader, right? Can you imagine what it appears like to other Muslim fundamentalists in the region at the time? They're probably freaking out. They've been trying to achieve an Islamic revolution for years. And all of a sudden is the Shia Iranian cleric that achieves it for the first time like Saudi Arabia specially probably really freaking out because they knew that. There are Shia minorities in Saudi and other Arab countries that might be tempted to rise up now introduces a tension between Iran and Saudi Arabia and other SUNY countries in the region and that tension it's going to shape future conflict. Wchs until today. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from the great horses offering digital video series on a new history of the American South. Dr Ed Ayers of the history podcast backstory provides an extensive exploration into the story and legacy of the south and its role in shaping the US. The great courses has a special offer for through line listeners. Order a digital copy of a new history of the American South and get eighty five percent off the original price to get this offer. Go to the great courses dot com slash through line. Part four the proxy war. All right. So by now, we've glided through more than a thousand years of history, and we're getting close to modern day. But in order to get to the situation, we see today and to really understand it. We have to start at a moment thirty years ago in the deserts of southern Iraq the same place where the prophet. Muhammad's family was killed nearly thirteen hundred years ago. Just months after the Iranian revolution. Saddam Hussein Iraq's secular dictator season opportunity and invades Iran. His goal to annex the oil-rich majority era province of who's estan in response. Iran mounts, epic defense and repels the Iraqi army after a few years the Iraqis offer a peace deal, but Khomeini rejects it and in retaliation calls on the Iranian military to invade Iraq under the guise of a religious war. You're running revolution in the Iran. Iraq war did in flame sectarianism, greatly soaked it in blood. This is Steve Kerr again and Iran dot mobilization was part and parcel of the revolution. Big public cults of martyrdom and the pursuit of purity through sacrifice. And of course, then, you know, the big billboards spring up all over Iran in cities with the faces of martyrs, and and just the whole mobilization of war was sectarian in character in important with specs. This is one example of this public displays an Iranian war song urging soldiers to invade Iraq and recapture Carballa from it's sunny rivals. Listening to the song in Farsi. It really captures the heart of what she is is about the emphasis on what happened in the battle of Caballo creates an entire mythology and rituals that fuel Iran's war effort, which seems like a pretty effective way for the government to play on people's fears and USA carrina Cem as a weapon of war and on the other side Saudi Arabia came to the aid of its Arab ally. Iraq, beginning a series of conflicts between Iran and Saudi Arabia. The war goes on for eight bloody years costing over one million lives, and ultimately produced no winner, the war left Iraq. Seriously, weakened still and the early nineteen nineties Iraq decided to invade Kuwait suspicious that they were stealing oil from the fields on the Iraq-Kuwait border, sparking the first Gulf war and all these conflicts culminated with a US invasion of Iraq. In two thousand three tonight. The president will give Saddam forty-eight hours, not seventy two forty eight to get out of Iraq or face a US led invasion. You probably know this story, the US invaded Iraq in two thousand three out Saddam Hussein destroys all statues. Billboards any remnants of government, and as many experts predicted with no viable government to provide services or security, chaos ensues and a fight for power and resources pushes people to cling to their sectarian identities. Civil war erupts Iran and Saudi Arabia quickly start supporting different sides based on sectarian lines. And this isn't the last time they'll fight this proxy war. Eight years after the fall of Saddam in Iraq and just months into the spring, unrest begins in Syria. It's two thousand eleven and the people in Syria are frustrated with the failing economy and the repressive regime of Bush our side who by this point has been in power for nearly eleven years. And so the people take to the streets. So there's this big solidarity, and you saw really multi-ethnic multi-faith participation in these protests. I mean, one of the big phrases of these early. Protests was wet wet wet head chef. Which is like the Syrian people are one. But that unity wouldn't last because the Assad regime, which is Alawite an off shoot as she is decided to paint the protesters as some kind of fringe will hobbies sunny movement, and that only reinforced the sectarian trend on the other side, including outside interference. So once the revolt kind of hardened in SUNY majority territory to the north of Damascus rebels often increasingly were mobilized by religious community and sectarian community. And then aided by Iran's Gulf opponents Saudi Arabia cutter Kuwait, the United her emerets, primarily wealthy states. I think aid from the Sunni Gulf states as well as the volunteerism that gathered in territory claimed by so-called Islamic state ended up creating the stalemate that we today after twenty thirteen the Islamic state are emerged in Syria. In Iraq and took secretary Newsham to a new level in large part because of ISIS the Syrian war went from a localized conflict. Basically now, an international one Iran got involved, providing military support to the other side. So it was no longer. Just Syrians fighting Syrians an ISIS USA terrorism for recruitment to motivated soldiers. They even use language like calling the Iraqi government and their Iranian supporters. Savitz alluding to that sixteenth century dynasty, which has nothing to do with anything today. Just a clever use of language, and as we've kind of talked about the problems of that time are not the problems of today. But nevertheless, it's dictating the narrative now, not just in Syria and Iraq, but also in Yemen where this proxy war has led to one of the worst humanitarian crises in the world. And this brings us back to today twenty nineteen and really back to our original question. Are people in the region killing each other because of a thousand year old conflict or is it just a convenient weapon being used by both sides in these modern proxy wars. We're dealing with a real ethnic conflict in the region. This is not a millennial mold conflict look in any other ethnic conflict with dealt with their identities. Go back millennia to dry, right? It has to do with today's grievances for most of history. She and Sonny have coexisted perfectly peaceably what we focused on because we're as guilty as those cheap television news shows, which always go flames first flames lead, what we focus on us when erupts into flame when it rubs into actual warfare when those blood and guts, and so on we tend not to focus on the times when it actually works. We only focus on the breakdown on civil war the best evidence that this conflict has not fundamentally sectarian is the successful pluralism that existed in both Syria. Iraq prior to two thousand and three and you don't have to walk far through refugee camps to hear people talk on undecly. About the really fine mutually respectful and supportive relations. They had enjoyed in their old neighborhoods impact or Damascus with Sunni or Shia or Christian neighbors, depending on the street that you're talking about and that stability had been present for decades. Although this kind of narrative of Shia Sunni split in the region is very convenient religious identities coming like densities uses a show end for something other than it actually is today. It's not like the tension is related to how many times a day anyone praise. This is really not about dogma. It's really about the balance of power in the Middle East. That said for this week show. I'm Tina Lewis, I'm run and you've been listening to through live from NPR. The show was produced by run me. Our team includes Jamie York, Jordana hookman, Lawrence Wu and Niger, Ian and special. Thanks to Jeff Rodgers Alison macadam saunas, Michigan poor Larry capital. An original music with produced by drop electric. If you like something you heard or you have an idea, please write us a through line at MPR dot org or find us on Twitter at through line NPR. Hope you enjoyed the show.

Iran Iraq Saudi Arabia Middle East Muhammad Saddam Hussein Syria NPR Arabia sonny Calif US Yemen Lesley Hazleton Damascus Sykes PICO Saddam Hussein Iraq SAFA SUNY Sony
Agar Mujhse Mohabbat . Shayariwala .  . Episode 25


02:45 min | 3 months ago

Agar Mujhse Mohabbat . Shayariwala . . Episode 25

"Same but jeez akiva headache gene. Meaty buddy go up inaugu bernardin takura dec- name h. apply. Tamara look up now gone tamara. The scene image comedic jamie is seen abruptly should he gives usually give them the cool back in the cocoa. La- gingko usually do cocoa bart curriculum is totally synergy. Medicine and a better name appeals saddam. Stephen king would he'll as soon as saddam hussein so then you hold him. His sabido eliminate some of the that lousy man shady valla mandy. Kahn t h. I only saw vehic finland up people chasing her glib disorderly and desirable men shetty.

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Jocko Underground: The Reason You Can't Make Things Happen is Learned Helplessness. Fear Of Home Invasions. Enforcing Covid19 Mask-wearing Rules.. or Not?

Jocko Podcast

09:19 min | Last month

Jocko Underground: The Reason You Can't Make Things Happen is Learned Helplessness. Fear Of Home Invasions. Enforcing Covid19 Mask-wearing Rules.. or Not?

"This is the jaakko underground. Podcast number. Seventeen with echo charles and jacka. Willink take to the. I take that we just did which you don't get to hear. Echo charles had a coughing attack there. It is seven seconds. Deep into the podcast. He started coughing uncontrollably. He's still kind of coughing. A little bit well. Good evening wasn't good evening until you've had a a level nine coughing outbursts. Good evening doc. Look how smooth. We're all clear. All right what's up everybody. Hey so going. Down the rabbit hole. Little rabbit hole of the psychological experiments. Listen can be. There's some revealing going on. And i know you like that word revealing if reveal so last. The last year we talked about this experiment called the ash experiment where they took the eight people. Put them in a room. Seven of the people were actors. They would make an assessment of something. The seven people would give the wrong answer and then the eighth person who was the subject of the experiment. Oftentimes they would. They would give a wrong answer to they. Just kind of fade. In conformity right conformity. Interesting stuff we can learn about ourselves and we can learn about a team and a group so it's stuff to pay attention to another experiment. I think that gives us some good information about ourselves and about others. And i've talked about a version of this one but i hadn't heard this particular. There's a psychologist late. Nineteen sixties name is. Martin seligman. I think that's how you say it. Then he was. He was actually looking at operan conditioning of dogs. Like pavlov's dogs where you ring a bell. Then you feed him and eventually get to a point where you ring a bell and they are automatically start salivating. They know what's coming right. So how do you condition animals. And then how well does that work with people. And he was doing a different experience experiment where he was ringing a bell and then the floor that these dogs would be on would give them a an electrical shock. I'm not gonna talk about. The humaneness of this experiment doesn't sound real humane to me to start and shocking dogs. Especially because i like dogs so here we are. We're talking dog but that's what happened. We're reporting on it. We're not doing it. We don't support it actually. So they're shocking. These dogs and ring a bell shocked dog ring. A bell shocked the dog and eventually the dogs behavior was as if they got shocked. Even if they didn't shock him there so we used to getting shocked getting tents that they would act that way. Even if it didn't happen okay. So does that experiment and then he puts a wall like a like a divider in this in this broom this dog room with electrical floors but one side of the of the floor. The other side of the divider. There's no shocking on the floor. So the so now he puts those dogs in there and start shocking him again and they don't jump over the wall they don't jump over the wall. The bell rings. They get shocked. They're like they sit there. They get socked. They don't and walls not hi. This isn't even a challenge. This is just like a very low effort escape. So what's going on. Why aren't they just trying to get out of there. So then he goes. Okay well let me try it with some fresh dogs so looney took fresh dogs. Put them in there and as soon as you shocked on the first time you know what they did they out freaking jumped over that divider and okay cool it safe over here so this is not something that dogs couldn't figure out. We're where we're standing sucks. Maybe over the weekend. It sucks here. Let's go to where it doesn't suck. So what had happened was was that they had learned. The dogs had learned will the the phrase that they call. This is learned helplessness. You learned that there's nothing you can do about your situation. Hey look we're getting shocked. That's the way the bell rings. We're going to get shocked. There's nothing we can do about it. And they lose the bigger view of world. So that's a very interesting thing to figure out. And the way that they they take that view and again these are views they take this idea and some people apply it to the way it impacts humans right and one of the ways it impacts humans one of the examples that they talked about and again. These aren't this isn't a fact. This is what this is a hypothesis that some people believe some people believe that like clinical depression comes from a situation where people no longer feel that they can control anything that's going on around and they don't have any more control over their fate anymore. They're they're they're perceived. Absence of of control is what ends up being. And then what do you do you. What do you do to fix yourself. you don't do anything. 'cause you don't think anything you can do will help your scenario and that kind of reminded me again. This is why this this story stood out to a reminded me of that story that i also told on the underground when i was in iraq and there was that family living in this one room house big room but it's one room and they had a sewer trench just raw on the floor sewage in between like their kitchen prep area and their dining room table and i was confused by it. And why would you not try and fix it. And i thought maybe there's some of this in effect there think about this. This is two thousand three two thousand four for generations and the iraqi people had been beat down by this tarancon leader. Saddam hussein where they have no control of interfa- insect. Just what it was what it was they had no will had no will try and figure out how to escape the situation that they're in or at least obviously some of them and what this boils down to also than the of the other thing that stood out to me about this experiments. The opposite of extreme ownership right is the opposite of extreme ownership with with extreme ownership. You look at a situation you go look. This is on me. I'm going to take control fix it if you don't think that way. If you have learned helplessness than you. Think there's nothing i can do about it. Nothing i can do about this isn't this isn't nothing new about it you can get you. Can that that attitude can get beat into you and it might look man. Life is going to put some things on you that are going to be out of your control and sometimes you fight. You know you're young and something happens and you fight against it doesn't matter it doesn't help your outcome and then that happens again. You don't make the football team. Whatever you try to gain weight and you can't. i'm just thinking of things you might have faced. Beat you down right. Thank you but has everybody right. Oh my parents are getting divorced. I try and help. I can't i'm just at. Oh now. I wanted to live with my dad. Now i gotta go live with my mom. Nothing i can do about it. I my my mom's my mom's not here very much. She's working all the time. I'm by myself. Nothing i can do about it. The food that i'm getting isn't good. Nothing i can. Do you see where i'm going with this. You can learn that nothing you do is going to have an impact. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing. On the jaakko underground podcast. So if you wanna continue to listen go to jaakko. underground dot com and subscribe. And we're doing this or doing this. To mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the jaakko podcast which will remain as free for all as long as we can keep it that way but we but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors and we're doing it so we can give you more control more interaction more direct connections better communications with us and to do that. We are building a website right now where we'll build the utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. it's jaakko underground dot com. It costs eight dollars and eighteen cents a month. And if you can't afford to support us we can still support you. Just email assistance at jaakko. Underground dot com. And we'll get you taken care of until then we will see you mobilized underground.

echo charles jacka Willink Echo charles Martin seligman pavlov clinical depression Saddam hussein iraq jaakko football
Episode 77: Mimpi


04:18 min | 8 months ago

Episode 77: Mimpi

"Saddam Hussein Bonani. Brutal city. Acquittal, sleep which he adult to. During up wheel. Governor. I said do family medical than. The day before the. The MOM. To come home and to. While I. Prepare. Pay Don't think they'll go on. That Akio went down about not suit. So. Yeah. GIESZL. Now Co Lohan Ankle One Newton Gone I think. Somebody's. GonNa get. was worth it. So did you G Yakult? Masato a KUDOS HUMA TO A. So, you have soon hobbies not. Happy. was. Diabetes Humor. that want exceed pieces, neum For. Fuel following days A. Few days. CUT ABOUT A. new. Magoo. My. Just we. CanNot you must be kidding was beginning chat thought yes. Yes. My mind fatty just possibly just use. Joe Gift who can think on think on and? Then a you have to compete we what if they can come back? Talking about. A But look. How can we? got. A AH cool. Giants Dasa. Delone. Mamata. On Nakashima Awkward. Tuesday Korean people. Wanted to. Or our our to upper. Impede. That I mean you gotta be he gives to my dreams but where he was ending the penelope Oh. Boom. Doodo copy to put. Actually to. The p the to center on. Academic do. Sadako. To stomas. Limp any DEMARCO wound up. Markham. The next. We'll do not buggy. Imperial. ISHOLA. Logistic Things. That was me. What do you is? The same place and the simply to. Do appealing. To be, really pissed accumulate. So markle the. Got The. Math are you close that you? skin Ragu. then. With What needs Apia. Malcolm do. How up the ability or not so you'd. So GOING TO BE MEDAC WHO's GonNa? be Nagy buy-sell a of our apart more talk Winnie. The. Cat. Will come. The Allegra was facing MCI. My mom was just behind he. Took up? Didn't. Talk. WHO Who Think? You. Chuck. Who They? Feel. Or See rule.

Saddam Hussein Bonani Magoo Diabetes Masato Akio Nakashima Joe Gift Newton Markham MCI Chuck Malcolm Ragu. One Newton
Ready for Battle: Turkey in Syria, Trump's Taxes, Red Blood Cells

Skimm This

12:11 min | 1 year ago

Ready for Battle: Turkey in Syria, Trump's Taxes, Red Blood Cells

"It's Monday October seventh welcome to skim this we're breaking down the most complex stories of the day and giving you the context on why they matter for your here's the US has been on the ground in northern Syria driving out the Islamic state with help from local Kurdish fighters now the US says we're leaving we'll explain why brought to you by John Hancock Skim this helps you understand the news today John Hancock can help you plan for tomorrow. The most kind of a Turkish invasion and America's Kurdish allies who've been left behind are really afraid today spokesperson for the Syrian Democratic Forces called the US complicated story today is about the US withdrawing troops from northern Syria for four years the US has fought alongside Kurdish troops there to wipe out the Islamic state Iraqi President Saddam Hussein during the US invasion of Iraq but years later when the Kurds wanted to create an independent Kurdish state in Iraq the US turn their back it's on them some say this latest move is the US once again leaving the Kurds behind the Kurds also say they may not be able to keep the Islamic state at bay area or coming home altogether but one country that is very happy to watch this unfold is Turkey a NATO ally of the US here's why US interests abroad but in the eighties when Iraq's government was repeatedly massacring the Kurds the US looked away in two thousand and three Kurds helps state Turkey says you guys are terrorists too so you can't have this land we're taking it for ourselves the US was standing in the way so hey aren't happy with the Kurdish forces in fact Turkey calls them terrorists so today we're going to get into what president trump just ordered what impact they've also got a fight Turkey now to Kurdish troops guard a bunch of prisons holding captured Islamic state terrorists but if they have to reroute resources to fight Turkey Kurdish troops have received a lot of support from the US the Kurds are good fighters and they want to create a secular and democratic government that respects the rights of women could have on the ground in Syria and how American politicians and global leaders are reacting I up the latest moves on the ground before but in a surprise move last night president trump ordered US troops to leave effectively giving the country of Turkey the green light to take part of the Syrian territory for itself and the light of day and finally an early morning call. That's actually worth answering we're here to make your evening smarter let's Skim this today's episode even though the Kurds don't have their own state Turkey's afraid that Kurds controlling their own territory anywhere is a threat to Turkey even though both Syrian Kurds are helping defeat the Islamic Turkey couldn't do much but on a phone

US Turkey Islamic state Iraqi Syrian Democratic Forces Syria Iraq John Hancock Saddam Hussein President trump NATO America four years
Your Nemesis Dies, Now what?  MDW336

Mike Dell's World

07:23 min | 1 year ago

Your Nemesis Dies, Now what? MDW336

"Dell's world number three three six and then when I was young boy there wasn't any entered in a so. There wasn't any worldwide web. There wasn't any egghead sending texts saying. Those are the same thing you don't have to Internet and worldwide. There weren't any video games when I was board. Pacman that was an asteroid. Wizard of war scramble vendor was a hell of a lot of fun and those were what we called video game did I say. We didn't have video games. That would have been a mistake but there there is one thing you have now. We didn't have when I was a boy. I wish Mike Dole's world in a world world created by Mike Del I guess he would call it. Mike Dell's world. Okay just had to play a bunch of silly stuff there. Good morning good. Even good afternoon renewed whatever the case may be and I was gonNA rant and rave in curiosity and all about stuff happened yesterday but I Didn't so rather than do that. I actually have a question for you and maybe you can. Maybe you have some Some experience with this but for the longest time I mean do you How would I put this? I say got off Mike there. Sorry about that I would. I put this. Did you ever in your life. Have you would consider an arch enemy nemesis nemesis. Somebody that no matter. What is you know? I guess the closest thing you can be to and archenemy I guess I don't know how else to put it Only had a couple of those in my life and one of them just passed away day and you know I feel guilty for feeling happy about that but not really You know if you believe I believe in such things This guy is definitely GonNa rot in Hell along with a Hitler and you know you. Name it Saddam Hussein saying I mean this guy is right up there with them he just he happened to be not as famous FAC not famous at all. which is a good thing but just as evil in my humble opinion or maybe not so humble opinion so you know? I know you're not supposed to speak ill of the dead and I'm not gonNA speak specifically about this person but I gotta say you know Couldn't happen to a better guy. Hi It's terrible. You know you feel bad in one way for feeling good about it so so all I can say and I'm just GonNa make this a pretty quick one but all I can say is i. I have a song that every time. I've I've heard this song. It reminds me of this guy and also I'm GonNa say that There are certain airways are her airways airwaves in this local area which are slightly more free so with that. This this is a song from the podcast. POD SAFE music network way back in the day. It's David Epa Lido. Anybody WanNA look him up. He's that get tired guy in central park but this was put out as a pod. Safe tune so I assume that that license is still good. And thanks. Thanks David for donating your music and I will catch you tomorrow. Smiles lack of Cheshire cat. But that's innocent disguised lacked. Make you think so more and more behind those besides Smith lack of Cheshire cat until he doesn't get his way and then his back goes all been his claws Kamau now on ones bound pain. Now he'll take you. Jane makes you. You can start again and there it began you find you one on again. Must be a reason for his Who Listeners but after searching through his pads finally found that the truth is this just me to say I used to own one bad way okay behind him so on kind again? It should just Fine wine while he lets you die. I of I stand in mind. I fun for a while. Snow down when he Spanish confusing. You chew his spin you out awful lot of walking around like him born the way. Hey He's always looking for some body ready to the fact is to say you happen to the boy to make him back it on. Just me

David Mike Dell Dell Mike Dole Saddam Hussein Mike Del Cheshire Mike Pacman David Epa Lido Kamau Jane Smith
Noreen Malone on Slow Burn and the Road to War in Iraq

The Lawfare Podcast

57:02 min | 3 weeks ago

Noreen Malone on Slow Burn and the Road to War in Iraq

"Hey podcast meet a cast. We're the top independent podcast network for creators in the no we empower you to develop your podcast idea. Find your audience and grow listener relationships wherever those listeners are. You'll also find a whole range of ways to make money from membership plans for paying fans to are fully curated and creative advertising experience visit a cast dot com slash network to find out more cast for the stories elements within the bush administration wanted to go to war with iraq from even four nine eleven certainly soon after nine eleven. It's the question of prominence right. So it's like they were just searching around for a motive for her for a cause of war. One that you know you could. You could say violated these international laws and wmd's fit the bill for say tried connecting saddam to al qaeda. That's really work this. Ya wasn't willing to fully back it into then. They turned to this other thing. I think some of it was just the irresponsibility with which they use intelligence. You know there. We're going to get into this later episode but there were these pieces of evidence just really weren't evidence. They were tenuous at best they were. You know backed by defectors who had not been checked out. They were. They were wild guesses about what certain aluminum tubes could be used for. The bush administration didn't just sort of like ceo factor. It in. they made these things the centerpiece of their case. They went all over the news and basically sort of gave certain members of caa heart attacks by talking about these these very controversial piece of evidence. Super prominently i'm scott are anderson. And this is the author podcast for may twenty first twenty twenty one. Eighteen years pass the. Us led invasion of iraq deposed despotic regime of saddam. Hussein ushered in a bloody new chapter that country's history one that in many ways iraq. The united states are still working their way through today. It's this season. The sleep produced podcast. Slow-burn is revisiting the lead up to that fateful decision to invade. I sat down with host marine malone to discuss the season thus far and what lessons that erica. Teach us for how to approach the challenges of our current moment. It's the law fair. Podcast for may twenty first marine malone on slow burn and the road to war in iraq so naureen for those of us who have watched. Excuse me for those of us with listen to slow. Burn from the start. It's undergone the kind of interesting dilution. The first two seasons were on presidential scandals. First watergate than the clinton impeachment then. There was a turn towards cultural history with a really interesting season about biggie. Two pac rap music during the time period in nineteen nineties and before and after then four season really fascinating season about david duke former kkk leader. Who had this surprisingly effective political career in period. Then you turn kind of in the direction back towards presidential scandal but very different sort of presidential scandal or presidential story. Which is this the lead up to the iraq war. What is the commonality between the lead up to the iraq war and those prior series of prior development that you guys covered in earlier seasons that makes these fit together for slow burn. What is the commonality that slow birds really focusing in on them. I think what slow-burn does is. It takes this big honking event in american history this totally unavoidable thing that you kind of think you know about but you don't maybe unless you are an expert or you know we're one of the principals involved maybe you don't remember all of the details and so it helps you live through that experience and also if you live through it the first time sort of reconsider certain things that happened you know it highlights characters that you might not have paid attention to it sort of thinks about you know with the with the passage of time. How do we see this differently culturally. So it's not necessarily that. You know the to biggie. And the iraq war have a ton in comment on the surface. But it's more the approached material this thing. That was all over the news at the time that we are going back into sort of giving you fresh eyes on i. It's great to hear you say that because in my mind that's always been one of the great strengths of slow-burn which is that you all do this. Great job about taking this historical developments and then contextualising bring in all of these subplots sub stories sometimes elevating them to a whole episode. Sometimes just part of an episode that brings in different aspects and different characters and different themes that fed in were part of this broader phenomenon. Often get left out from the most conventional historical narrative. And i kind of would like to spend this conversation digging into three of those around the story of the iraq war taken from this your latest season or at least the first four episodes of your latest caesar which are currently out at the moment. Because i think they're really interesting. Aspects of that story which a lot of listeners are probably familiar with the broad contours of but that dig into it in a much more interesting way and an uncover aspects of that a little bit more. The first one i i really wanna talk about is from your first episode of the season which you entitled the exile and this episode focuses on a very very interesting figure that i think whose name will be familiar to a lot of people which is ahmed shalabi An iraqi expatriot iraqi exile who plays a sort of outsized role in the lead up to the iraq war. I want to play a clip from that episode. Now this is a clip that features conversation dialogue from you of course but also clip of shabas own voice a clip from a conversation. You had with former cia authored. In bob baer and some language from an interview you did with us lobbies viagra for rich bonan. Let's let's play that so despite his many shortcomings the cia thought of as an asset. What they didn't realize is that he was using them. We know what the cia on provided. Them than ten adjusts snap did because the out completely outside. You're just doing it for yourself. Yes that was. All that time he was being paid by the cia chalabi was putting together his own scheme he was going out saddam using the cia as money resources and manpower his plan involved. A group of generals in saddam's army who chalabi said. We're ready to seize power. He introduced one to bob. Baer chalabi brings them to me and says here. Talk to this guy. He can change the regime so we sit down and he walks me through this secret committee in baghdad of sunni generals who are ready to move. He gives me the names. I trace them. They're real people. There's a possibility they could be dissidents. The rest of the pitch from chalabi went like this. The disaffected iraqi generals would join forces with the kurdish nationalists. Who'd been brutalized by saddam. And were desperate to get rid of him. The generals and the kurds would get help from iran which had its own long standing before saddam chalabi said this supergroup could take on the iraqi dictator. If you would give them a hand. What would come. after that. For chalabi removing saddam was only half the goal. That's rich bonin. chubby biographer. Talking to me last year the other half of the goal was to become the leader of iraq himself. He believed in his heart of hearts that he was the most qualified iraqi tallied iraq into the modern world so a lot of people know or lease. Roll call shelby's role right in the lead up to the two thousand three invasion of iraq about hyping information about weapons of mass destruction. Bring attention to your rights abuses and then playing a very prominent role in the efforts to reconstruct iraq afterwards develop iraqi government an often controversial world to the point of having a pretty prominent falling out with the united states later in in that post conflict reconstruction period. But you spend a lot of time digging into shallow bays interaction with the united states for the ten years before the two thousand evasion or even longer tell us a little bit about that worded chalabi. Come from and what was his relationship with. The united states and before the bush administration came into office and began making moves towards iraq that the pull shelby and do their orbit bet. Ya taliban has such a rich backstory i. He's almost like you know the kind of character you'd come across in in like a sweeping nineteenth century novel which by the way is exactly the kind of novel that he liked to read. So i you know. I going into this. Project had had known him in the in the sort of headlines from the new york times from you know fifteen years ago kind of way and didn't know any of this backstory and just got completely fascinated by two. He was from this very wealthy family in iraq. They were sort of like the rockefellers of iraq before the series of coups in the mid century That eventually led to saddam hussein going into power so his family was kicked out in a coup in one thousand. Nine hundred eighty eight when chalabi was just fourteen. They moved to london where his you know his father who had been this sort of you know like a like a bill gates. Jeff bezos type of wealth within within iraq. Suddenly making his own rice. You know they. They were living the life ordinary people and shelby made. This vowed to himself at that point that he was going to get back to iraq he was gonna get his family's power back and then he lived the rest of his life. Really really trying to do that. It was it was a pretty Directed quest so he he went to mit he went to the university of chicago. He was educated in the west and then moved back to the middle east and started sort of making moves to get involved in iraqi politics again. He went and right. I forget if it was right in between college and graduate school right after graduate school but he went and joined. barzani's forces did curtis revolutionaries for short time. He was trying to figure out. How can i get back and overthrow saddam hussein. So eventually he was living in lebanon in the nineteen eighties. Friend did a lot of american journalists. He became known as you know an iraqi who is politically connected. He was particularly good at connecting american journalists to the cards. Jim hoagland who really quite influential pulitzer prize. Winning columnist for the washington post at the time became a friend of his so chalabi in the early nineties After suffering a scandal. A big scandal. In jordan where he was living at the time and running a bank he moved to the united states and started trying to become a mover and shaker in washington with the idea of convincing the government to overthrow saddam hussein. You had that idea from pretty early on and a lot more traction with this frankly. After the gulf war people started to pay attention after the gulf war and the cia didn't have a lot of assets in iraq. They were having trouble making headway. Chubby was known as a guy who knew about iraq and the cia gave him some money and said okay. Why don't you start operation up there and he did but it was supposed to be sort of a basically a propaganda operation right of the kind that the cia has has run for years and years but challenge just didn't do that. He you know he was supposed to start a newspaper. He was supposed to have a radio station. People have described his operation. He was in the kurdish sales. People have described his operation to me as like a literal potemkin village. You would go there. Nothing was happening what he was doing instead of doing what the cia wanted him to do was he was trying to foment his own who he was trying to get. You know. Two sets of kurdish revolutionary forces together with some disaffected iraqi generals. He was sure would join us trying to pull in. You know the iranians who's trying to pull in the turks he was he was trying to pull in the americans and start this coup which we describe in our first episode and which did not go. Well i think you all acknowledged the episode. Shelby is kind of a model figure. He's not a singular figure or at least not entirely. He's one of a group of these sorts of prominent iraqi ex patriots. Exiles that are in different ways working against the hussein regime and advancing certain other visions of political agendas and different ways shelby of courses working with the kurds and other disaffected minority groups in in iraq. You had yet allowing who later became the prime minister of iraq working with the iraqi national accord at a different sort of organization that was aimed more at working with the iraqi elites to oppose the hussein regime through a potential coup. Or something along those lines. You had different iran back groups that were active throughout this period engage in different sort of anti hussein regime activities but shelby out in part in the store you tell stands out in part because it is the sort of cooperation relationship with the cia where he takes a set of resources relationship is able to redirect it and a different direction towards his own ends. What is it that allowed and facilitated that sort of relationship for from agency innocent of operators as savvy as the cia who who often approaches relationships you know in a very practical way aiming towards their own objectives very conscious as a matter of tradecraft that the people you're working with inevitably bring their own agendas to the work. You're collaborating on. How is it. that shelby is able to take this. You know agency for a ride for a bit. And then when the agency's seems to get wise perhaps more importantly nonetheless circumvent them or rehabilitators relationship to then work with the bush administration in advancing perhaps part of his own agendas. Well yeah it's interesting. I mean as to the cia question you know. It's a little bit of a mystery to me still. The obvious answer is that there was a sort of rogue ish operator within the cia. The sky bob baer who was just sort of like a cliche version of a spy willing to take all kinds of risks and he was heading the as sort of operation there and he decided that he was. He thought that this was a good idea. He technically had a lethal finding from his bosses and that he was going to join in and try to help shall be get. This done. Headquarters did not want that to happen. The national security council did not want that to happen but they had given him enough rope to sort of on his own by the time. everything was in motion. It was already going. I also think the cia has sort of like you know the people cia works with generally are not angels until they probably had a bit of an appetite for someone to to misbehave but but chalabi really was you know he was. He was tapping their phones. He was he was a little bit unusual in that but after after the ninety five ninety six there were there was to focus. There was ninety five ninety six and after that the cia was just done with him he had blown up their spot in iraqi had shown himself to be sort of duplicitous. They didn't wanna work with him anymore and then he makes his really interesting tidbit. Which is that he says okay. Well you know you know where. The cia has the least power in the world. It's actually the domestic united states. So i'm going to go there. And i am going to work the press. And that's where he did. So he took some of these connections of he'd begun to make in the nineteen eighties and he painted himself as a freedom fighter and the cia as sort of against the cause of iraqi freedom. He really started to talk about iraq as a humanitarian issue. He you know he got peter jennings through a whole big special on the coup. That really kind of painted the cia as villains at the same time he was making deeper and deeper connections with you. Know the neo cons and and members of congress. Who for a whole set of reasons were in favor of regime change in iraq. So what he did was he. Sort of said okay. Well that part of the us government wants nothing to do with me. There's a whole other set of the us government and by the way. There's you know. American public sentiment. And i can work the media. I'm he's a super savvy. He was a super savvy. Manipulator of the media my favorite facts about chalabi. This jumping head a little bit. But in the run up to the war he had this organization. The inc that was modeled after ghandi's organization in india that was sort of an exile government in waiting kind of thing and at one point in two thousand to lead up to the iraq war. He was able to get the inc. On the oprah winfrey show. And i feel like if you have gotten your if you have gotten your your organization on the oprah winfrey show you have showed that you have conquered american media that you really understand that like who needs a cia. When you have oprah i guess is what i'm saying that's fantastic actually realize that that addiction place. That's amazing yeah. We couldn't fit in the podcast. I wish we had but it didn't didn't go in. You've just triggered a desperate youtube search on my half half investor. Kind find this clip. You really come away from this conversation about chalabi. And i think this fits with a lot of other conversations. I've had about him reading of done about him. He talked to who knew him working for a long time. He's a very savvy guy you hear him talk about his own legacy and his legacy in kind of popular american imagination is very mixed a. He came away bearing a lot of blame for a lot of people in facilitating the bush. Administration's efforts to invade iraq through false information arrest representations He was accused of corruption. Both in jordan as you mentioned before before kind of engaging in these sorts of efforts subsequently accused of corruption again in feather aki context then was accused of spying for the iranians by the united states at a certain point and eventually passes away in baghdad began. Ns very poignant quote from him from these interviews he did that. You are releasing clips to release her first time i. I've heard them certainly where he makes the point saying you know. Yeah maybe. i manipulated certain people. I'm paraphrasing here. But maybe i made it turn things that were a little unsavory but in the end i helped put down one of the most brutal regimes the arab world known the you know arguably the world more broadly on the twentieth century comparing him if i recall correctly expressly to hitler and similar sorts of regimes in its brutality is that really the legacy that shelby software himself and that other people might see for him is is a no holds barred enemy of the hussein regime that was ultimately victorious or are we still left with a much muddier picture of him on even on that front Whether that was really his motivation or not right. Well that's what. His motivation was was a bit of an open question. I think he did genuinely want to help iraq but he also did genuinely want to get his family's power back and he very explicitly wanted to run the country himself right so he was not necessarily super pure of heart in his motives. I don't necessarily want to spoil anything but chalabi does come back later in our season. Particularly our final episode of the season is sort of post-invasion what went wrong. There will be some stuff on debaathification and the disbanding of the iraqi military he played a role there and we also have an interview with qanon. Makiya who was an iraqi intellectual a close friend of chalabi who worked with him on the inc who also worked worked in post invasion iraq. And and makiya sort of gives us some insight into what chalabi his own state of mind was before his death which was actually a little bit different than what it was when those interviews were conducted. So there's gonna be a lot more on chalabi in the final episode actually so so tune in well we'll whole offer that then let me turn to a little different story that we started alluding to already which is the lead up to the actual two thousand three invasion which you guys really cover in. I guess episode two. I should say which talks about the anthrax scare kind of a aside story that people don't fully remember an appreciate the role it played in selling to some extent concerns over. Wmd's as part of the lead up to the war with iraq without really interesting episode that you then feed into episode three entitled mushroom clouds. Were you really spend time digging into both the american side of the story which is about how the intelligence agency evaluated iraq. I efforts to kind of tie it. By certain people in the bush administration who came in with kind of preconception of the threat posed by iraq. And the need to potentially remove hussein regime with indulge me. I looking at you know efforts to tie the hussein regime to nine eleven to two fundamentalist terrorism in various ways related on eleven that kind of l. apart and then saw the shift to weapons of mass destruction as being the hook the public narrative that really could justify war with iraq particularly in the aftermath of not just nine eleven but the anthrax scare but one story that i think is really interesting and then i wanna play a clip of your treatment of shortly is the actual story of iraq's actual wmd programs throughout the nineteen ninety s Which were the subject of investigations that you spend a fair amount of time playing out the story that fits into this in a way that i think a lot of people who just see the wmd narrative a straight up y. Might miss and that can explain a little bit the way it was received. This is again a clip from episode three entitled mushroom clouds. Were you are having discussion with rod barton. Former australian officials involved in some of these weapons inspections dr mahathir claim that iraq had destroyed all of its anthrax following the gulf war but barton was suspicious throughout his time in iraq. He'd come across burn documents and buried equipment. I one point. The iraqis had opened fire on inspectors at a facility and in dr toss case the inspectors discovered. Tell when they got close to the truth she would start to cry. It happened once. When barton explained some of their discoveries to dr tas team and during this presentation she started to try to interrupt. I just ignored her. I think it's the presentation. And i heard these noises coming from her. Now look around and she was sobbing. Of course we didn't quite know what why she started cry. You know in fact often came as a surprise to us you know partway through just breakdown and tears and at first we thought this was a ploy. You know to stop the interview going any further. But i think he was quite genuine. She was quite distressed. The if you'd give anything away she would be. Jailed tortured prep short. Who knows not long after this crying episode. The inspectors met with dr tas team again. And that's when she died really consents that they really had to confess to having a biological weapons program. How did it feel when you got that confession. We felt elated afterwards. But we knew it wasn't the whole truth. The inspectors uncovered even more about iraq's weapons program in nineteen ninety five that's when saddam son-in-law hussein kamel defected to jordan. He was deeply involved in the weapons program and told the un what he knew how big the programs have been before the war. How much had been destroyed. And what was still being made. The section we had a lot of documentation on the programs that documentation help fill in the missing gaps. You could say but more important than commals. Confession was saddam. regime's reaction to it. They panicked iraqi. Government released a trove of documentation about their weapons information. They claimed the son-in-law had been hiding from them but even then the information didn't match up with what the inspectors are finding on the ground. The regime was still covering stuff up all while pretending to come clean. Seven months later hussein com overturned to iraq he thought being married to saddam's daughter would protect him. It didn't he was killed so this is a really interesting episode in my mind because it really underscores that there was a multilayer game going on between the united nations other nations like the united states in britain other nations with an interest in iraq in the nineteen nineties that wanted to see this commitment for it to wind down its wmd programs. That was part of the end of the gulf war. Abided by and the hussein regime people people within it to a certain extent. Defectors the poor people trapped in the hussein regime brutal hussein regime's lies just various stance and that really this story really. I think brings that out a little bit would was the hussein regime doing with its wmd program the nineteen ninety s. And how did that feed into the perception of it or the marketed framing of it. Depending on your perspective that really came to play such a dominant role in two thousand and three in the lead up to the invasion right so the hussein regime was not doing what they were supposed to do. Under international law and this treaty or this agreement at the end of the gulf war. They were not destroying disclosing. They were pretending like they were cooperating. With you on weapons inspectors they. Were you know inviting the weapons inspectors in. They were offering them lunch. They were you know supposedly pointing them to the facilities. Where they were getting they had been working on weapons programs but they were now getting rid of it when that what they were doing was they were doing all that. But behind the scenes they were still very much working on an active program. They were very much disguising their true capabilities and their ambitions. And i think what really sort of shifted the mindset of weapons inspectors and also you know through the american intelligence services that were getting information from the weapons. Inspectors was the fact that every time it looks like they found ally there was another one another lie within it so the iraqis would be caught in one. Lie and say okay. Now we're really coming clean and then you would find out you know that they had not actually come clean and so this everyone. I've talked to said this is what shaped the way. The bush administration and the cia really thought about iraq. It was just like they can't be trusted. Anything they're saying about their wmd is ally were operating from the principle that they're always trying to get more weapons that they are hiding weapons that you know there is just no. There's just no end to. There is no point at which they will have disclosed at all and come clean and stopped and it was really about sort of that mindset. That was brought into two thousand two when when there was a discussion about whether iraq still had weapons capabilities because of course saddam hussein basically kicked out the inspectors nine nineteen ninety eight and so in the lead up to the iraq war until you know just before the invasion when some weapons inspectors went in a gun. There had not been inspections in iraq in few years and so of course in that time. The us presumed that they had okay. You know they have no oversight now if they were working on the program while we were here of course now no oversight they're going to really ramp it up well which really remarkable about this. It's clear that the hussein regime is trying to frame its actions towards a couple of different audiences. Because at one point mr barton. Who you're interviewing says. Look i believe that by the time we left in nineteen ninety eight ninety five percent of the wmd program was gone. Whatever remnants they had were probably not likely to be very effective and in some ways. If hussein was primarily concerned with repairing his relationship with your national community and coming out from under sanctions and the other measures that have been imposed in part as a condition on. Fulfilling these inspections. You know he would have just come clean on that. Come to the inspector and said look. I don't have any this stuff anymore. But very clearly he's playing for this other audience. Which is the regional audience. Feeling pressure from iran. With which of course iraq was in an extended war throughout most of the nineteen eighties and still had a very tense relationship with with other other regional powers as well israel being another factor and to some extent maybe even the united states and other countries saying who had come to the precipice of deposing him in the nineteen ninety one gulf war before ultimately stopping short but to say well maybe a little ambiguity around the existence of my wmd program gives me an ace card that will make all these other states this much more hesitant to take that final step actually remove me from power every ironic strategic judgment given that the wd Multiple i played a role in justifying precisely that sort of military action is that a fair way characterize this sort of game and if if it was the sort of perspective you know. Why was that not into the bush administration's approach and evaluation to the same extent. Was it simply a matter of you. Know selectively picking what you understand what you believe about the hussein regime Or was there a kind of a general persuasion in people evaluating this that essentially hussein actually did have these in there was a willingness to proactively. Use them in other words. I guess what was the perspective of iraq strategic judgment as of two thousand three and what it's intent was with whatever wmd program it had. And how does that fit into the bush. Administration's narratives right so. This is an interesting question. I think the big overarching answer. Is that the bush. Administration was definitely selective in choosing to maybe not all the way about what saddam's other strategic concerns might be there were some say analysts who sort of raised that as a possibility You know that was not. The intelligence of the bush was paying attention to but the really really important thing i think to say is that pretty universally. Most people believed that saddam did have some weapons capabilities indefinitely. wins ambitions. And and you know. I think everyone sort of in retrospect says oh well people who there were a lot of people who understood there weren't wmd's but but within the intelligence agencies most people's working assumption was that he had something but something versus you know a large stockpile that he is willing to us mainstream analysts did not believe he had a large stockpile that he was willing to use. But that didn't for a whole host of reasons necessarily get communicated you know it was it was it was their evaluation that he just either didn't have very much at all or wasn't wasn't actually going to use it for for a lot of reasons. So yeah that's that that is something that almost everyone says that i even people who thought the war was terrible idea who were raising questions about you. Know certainly specific evidence that was that was being put forward as definite evidence of wmd's even those people of naysayers within the intelligence community. Most of them thought he had something. And so i guess in my mind that that kind of puts forward the question saying insofar as you really hold the bush administration responsible for misrepresenting in shaping. A lot of this is the big part of the lie about the existence of wmd's which again some people many people genuinely believed existed to some extent not the scale perhaps Although bush administration's claims on scale were weren't actually that that bold and a lot of people are generally surprised at just how limited the wmd's that meeting basically nothing that was uncovered after the invasion actually was but was the lie more about the actual wmd's or about iraq's intent about which is inherently much more subjective judgment to say what is hussain willing to do and has he done and what was the basis for that narrative sank hussein's willing to use what weapons we believe he has many people believe he has in a way that threatens the united states. I think the basis was that he had used you know chemical and biological weapons both on his own people and in fighting iran during the nineteen eighties went by the way The united states was backing him. So i think. How do i put this. You know. the bush administration wanted to go to war with iraq or elements within the bush administration. Wanted to go to war with iraq from even before nine eleven. Certainly soon after nine eleven. It's it's it's the question of prominence right so it's like they just searching around for a motive for for for a cause of war. One that you know you could. You could say violated these international laws and wmd's fit the bill for say tried you know connecting saddam to al qaeda. That didn't really work. This wasn't willing to fully back it until then they turn to this other thing. I think some of it was just the irresponsibility with which they used intelligence. You know there. We're going to get into this in the later episode but there were these pieces of evidence just really weren't evidence. They were tenuous at best they. Were you know backed by defectors. Who had not been checked out they were. They were wild guesses about what certain aluminum tubes could be used for. And the bush administration didn't just sort of like say factor it in. They made these things these centerpiece of their case. They went all over the news and basically sort of gave certain members of cia heart attacks by talking about these these very controversial piece of evidence super prominently and the other thing they did. Was they really emphasize nuclear. And everyone said you know. Saddam wants a nuclear weapon. I thought maybe have it with an x. Number of years but no one thought he was like really close and if you were just sort of casually watching the evening news you would have thought. Saddam was ready to bomb america so it was sort of the way in which they deployed the intelligence. That was really beyond irresponsible. So let me take the story now to another chapter another one of these narratives that you'll pull out an episode four of your latest season which will call fighting words and i to say i think this was one of the most interesting and one of the best done episodes of the season so far because this episode really focuses on the media narrative that emerged around the invasion of iraq and catchers. This historical moment. That i think a lot of people were really caught up in but for those of us who are really consumers of media i was. I was a high school senior and freshman in college at the time but routinely read a lot of these foreign affairs type publications. I knew i was interested in it. I kinda guy was deeply immersed in a lot of these discussions without fully realizing the extent to which they were kind of exceptional at the time really played this role in building a narrative to support the ultimate decision to invade and to some extent. We know that story right. We know the story of the conservatives. We know that story of the intellectuals in the conservative movement and within the bush administration that built this case for invading iraq but really spend the time capturing how the narrative a different narrative but none the less at just katori narrative for that ultimate decision emerged in the left and the political left and the left in the media and in particular. I think particularly notable within slate The magazine and publication that sponsor slow burn itself. And i think deals with its own role in this pretty honestly which is which is very refreshing. Let me play this clip now. This is you discussing these developments with franklin four who was editor of the new republic laughter. This period jacob weisberg irs former editor of slate. I think during this period. If i recall correctly as a as a brief clip of some comments by a new york times columnist thomas friedman. Here's the clip. When the bush administration made the case for war the newcomb's provided the intellectual justification they appeal to conservative ideas of patriotism and militarism. it's not surprising that republicans lined up behind that kind of thinking. But it's less obvious why. Large segments of the american centre-left also supported the invasion frank. Four i think it was possible to really hate george w bush and dick cheney and still support their war You know there was this post nine eleven ethos where it felt like something needed to be done. The democrats who support the war became known as the liberal hawks not every liberal supported the war by a long shot but a lot of the foreign policy establishment. Did kenneth pollack. A former clinton national security staffer wrote an influential book. Making the case for war. Political theorist michael nutty off argued that humanitarian intervention was necessary right. Many of these writers were deeply tied into power and the establishment for instance. Here's thomas friedman a columnist for the new york times now. We talk about iraq. Eileen in favor of doing something But only if we can do it right. Because i do believe saddam hussein is a really bad guy who is doing really has done really bad things and will continue to do them bill. Keller who would go on to edit. The new york times wrote a column declaring himself a member of the. I can't believe i'm a hawk club. The editor in chief of the new yorker david ramnik wrote a column that landed on the side of invasion michael kelly. The editor in chief of the atlantic and peter beinart. The editor of the new republic also backed the war. So did the editor of newsweek international and star talking head for reads sakaria. The washington post editorial page came out in favor of the war to in two thousand and two vanity fair ran any leave of its cover spread that bush and his cabinet post like movie stars. It's a big foldout group. Shot something the magazine usually only does for. Its hollywoodish you bush's wearing a big cowboy belt. Buckle with the presidential seal on it and dick cheney is kind of looking out at you with come hither is the headline was war and destiny. Slate was part of this pro. War consensus chew jacob. Weisberg was editing the magazine then we got a lot of people including a lot of liberal writers who weren't regular slate contributors kind of on the record about what they thought about the war and the sentiment was predominantly in favor of it kind of an infinite number of qualifications. But i think most of the people who wrote in that forum felt that getting rid of saddam hussein regime change was desirable even if they had real skepticism about bush and the bush administration carrying it out. So this is a really fascinating story that you know you talked to a number of people about who are who are really honest about the role and lamented and a lot of different ways to different extents. Some not fully apologizing acknowledging. There is some unintended consequences for the war. But a lot of people kind of saying we all got caught up in this moment where we were all had our own confirmation bias among people who consider themselves self-described public intellectuals elites around the sort of view that departed illinois's even from the mainstream political mainstream democratic party of whom among whom support the records very limited lease on at the voter level that those elite opinions actually had a real impact hourly strong suggestion. Your episode that had a real impact on the political narrative that ultimately persuaded members of congress and others to support the staff. Can you describe us a little bit. Where did this sort of center left and not always just. The center left really various threads of the political left narrative supporting the iraq war originate from. And how did it reconcile itself with the fact that it was reaching the same conclusion as other elements on the conservative side of the local spectrum was usually opposed to yeah. I think that last part is really interesting. The sort of parsing of you know my position versus bill kristol's position even if we come to the ultimate ultimately the same conclusion. I have a different justification. Because you know. I'm not just giving president bush a blank cheque. So you know. I think there are a few places that it comes from. One is just the sense of. I don't think hey baltimore. Made it to the air. But but what. Frank force entering that in stock with me is he said you know the neo. Cons had the intellectual energy in the nineteen ninety s. If you were thought of yourself as an intellectual they are the ones who had the big new ideas and they're the ones who sort of figuring out in this post cold war world. What could you know. America's place in the world so they were hugely influential and then liberals like franken others and and places like sleigh to places like the new republic didn't want to be seen as weak on national security and they didn't wanna seem as if they couldn't imagine a better world so that's one piece of this sort of like challenge from the right to not seem soft then i think there is also humanitarian intervention. Was i think for most of the people who would call themselves. Liberal hawks data what they cared about right it wasn't necessarily about the sort of geostrategic advantage. That going into iraq might give america. it was about. It was a lot about the plight of the kurds what saddam was doing to his people. You know this had been in the nineteen nineties rwanda. Haiti kozovo these at all been issues. You know the the clinton administration in some cases have shown a willingness to go in and successfully help people in other instances had not and people had died and for people on the left. This was a big moral issue. They saw iraq as the next test case for that and then i think that there was also just a certain kind of post nine eleven. I guess the word is reactionary them. That's word but people people had a sort of even intellectuals and frank makes this point. I think really eloquently in the episode but even intellectuals who pride themselves on their dealing in the realm of ideas were having the motion response to what had happened in the terror attacks and maybe just wanting to hit back and what is interesting when you go through all of these you know many many many people on liberals wrote sort of you know why i am for the war kind of essays. Slate hosted a whole dialogue that they called the liberal hawks dialogue that was super interesting pulling people within sight. But also people like jeffrey goldberg. Who new yorker writer. Bob rights who was antiwar unusually. So in that in that dialogue and all these people sort of went through their logic and most of the time the logic said you know i do not think the way that bush wants to purchase unilaterally. You know is the correct response. I think we need to go through the un weapons inspections but ultimately they came down like on. Okay this is a big moral question of our time. And i think that we cannot allow this dictator to continue to operate so it is really interesting to go back and look at the the writing from that time. It's a really striking contrast in my mind when you compare some of the writing particularly on again on the left whether it centre-left further last compared to kind of the post vietnam era right where we really saw kind of the rise of you know a a strand of leftists thinking on the role of american the world. That was luma critical suffering from this to the viet vietnam war very critical of a lot of the idea of extending military commitments. The effectiveness of this and then you saw neoconservative is kind of emerges reaction that a lot of ways basically saying we've gone too far in response vietnam war to say that we can't do anything actually. In fact american military power force actually can be a great force for good in the world. a great agent of change an effective agent of change. You know towards what the new conservancy saw as good in many cases or at least in the united states interest in you know. It's it's tricalm me as i was looking through the list of people. You really talk about and site in this sort of articles that you would experience in between these two kind of generational shift. A lot of the writers were talking about with a few exceptions here and there. There are notable exceptions. But they're kind of a younger generation and you really spend a lotta time noting on the outgrowing influence of kind of new media at the time. The fact that this was the era where blogs were really exploding you interviewed medically see us of courses. You know from early writing for right. If blogs and a founder fox you know is one of these guys who the faces one of the kind of fathers of blogging and the emergence of that as a medium and was incredibly. Young at the time is very frank to his credit. I think about the fact that i was a young person. Trying to build a reputation in an elite circle and out the giver. Quite says it like this but this is i. Think the subtext of what he says is. I got caught up in it and persuaded to accept arguments. That maybe i didn't use subject to scrutiny. Because that's what everybody else was doing. you know. Is there something to be said here about this being generational shift a degree of the fact that these are people who don't remember frankly another major conflict except for the gulf war and except for us involvement in various sorts of inner humanitarian interventions. The nineteen nineties which were minor in scale and for the most part as certainly from a perspective of us casualties for the most part always faced a question of effectiveness but at least in part because they were a little more limited in scope. I is it just reflect a real generational learning and change in perspective that led to a willingness to accept something that one generation of lessons intellectuals earlier would have had a lot of trouble buying into again or is there is something more here is is it really not about an understanding of united role in the world and the role of war and the effectiveness of it but just something more unique to the historical moment and iraq and the post nine eleven era. No i think. I think you're right. I mean that isn't something that i'd i'd i'd necessarily explicitly thought of but if you look at the people who were on the left at least not on the right of the people on the left who are advocating for the war writing about it. Most of them are kind of jax or old baleno. I think scott. It sounds like you. And i are around. The same age is on the you know sort of old millennial end of things gut right and and you know the two people who we sort of had represent the sort of antiwar left in our episode are catha And mark danner. Both of whom i think are pretty squarely in the boomer sort of you know vietnam generation and and i guess i think that's probably not an accident. I was talking to someone last weekend. Who is you know In his mid thirties and he was talking to a younger friend in his mid twenties. Who is sort of like on the left you know like socialists left and they were talking with the iraq war and you know just sort of like a just a gut reaction to us foreign policy. What this guy said to me is what i couldn't explain to. This guy. is it. If he'd been ten years older he might not have been for the war but he was known people who were that. It was just like if you were reading these publications. If you were thinking about these things it was just in the air. And i think people don't wanna think so much about how much they're the time in which they were born influences their politics and their views on you know morality all kinds of things but it really really really does and i think you can see the and even just people. You know five years younger than us. I think have a totally different perspective on it. My producer is around thirty and just has just that much of a view on on what the iraq war represented in the world. You know you guys have always been time thinking about this. Both at slow-burn even at slate really. Because again i. I think that upset really highlights slates effort to reconcile with its own role in this sort of era. Have you reached any sorts of thoughts. And i say this in part of self interest as somebody worked for a media organization in our current era deals with these difficult topics of war and peace and national policy and and violent awful things for good and bad purposes. Do you have something that comes out of looking the sarah so closely that approaches a set of guidelines or recommendations or ethics that media organizations should really approach when discussing these big questions and particularly in this new era where we have you both the increasing kind of division of mainstream media into different political silos and emergence of all these formats of new media of which law fair is one. That's worth acknowledging other. We've been around for a while at this point to always feel that new but of blogs and specialized publications in podcast series and other things that that really take a narrow view at some of which have very even sometimes very conscious and open perspective View on these things you know. Both i guess as a consumer or as a media organization is the lessons to be drawn from this period. We should all be considering your don't think the lesson isn't. I don't think the lesson is people. Shouldn't you know write opinion journalism. About what america should do in the world. I don't want that to be the lesson but one thing that is really striking looking back at this time period as that expertise was undervalued Right people have talked about this a lot. Cia no one spoke arabic. This was a problem but also in the media like a lot of people who you know might have been paying close attention to other countries in the middle east. Were suddenly experts on iraq and and people wanted to have these big grandiose geo-strategical conversations but weren't maybe looking closely at what was actually happening on the ground. And i think certainly. That's something that's been talked a lot about with respect to the way foreign policy should be conducted in this country but i think it also applies to if you are making an argument about about what the united states should do you yourself. Don't have to have that subject but call the people who do like. Actually you know call you know just sort of mid loan paragraphs of the state department don't necessarily just rely on what you know. A top administration official told the new york times. I think sort of revaluing expertise to me. The way to think about this saurian we've pulled out highlights from the first four episodes of the season of slow-burn but there's a number of episodes left to come. Would we have to look forward to in the rest of the season. yeah. I'm so excited for people into the back cap the up so that's coming up next week on the congressional vote to authorize military force in iraq In two thousand. And two and the jockeying and congress around that the way it got politicized the way the you know the post nine eleven era of bipartisanship sort of ended a little bit even while democrats were trying to give bush what he wanted. And i'm excited for people to listen to that episode because we have a fun conceit fund organizing conceit then the episode after that we will be looking more at intelligence failures and going into the case of curve ball. Do you remember curveball. The iraqi defector. Who bugs lou. Yi remote like a an amazing name for a pretty crazy story So we'll be taking people up through more about how the intelligence failures happened. While looking closely at the story of curveball. And then we have an episode on we go back to the media So the episode. We were just talking. About what sort of opinion journalism and intellectual jockeying. This is on reported journalism. Why why it's sort of failed to to be more skeptical. We'll be looking at one institution and one reporter in particular but also broadening the scope to a bit more generally and then our final episode. Which i think i mentioned earlier is sort of post-invasion what happened. Why wasn't this plan to better. Why did it become the disaster. That it did i for one. I'm looking forward to listening to those forthcoming episodes. But for now we're gonna have to leave the conversation there. Mary malone thank you so much for joining us today here on the offer. Podcast thank you. Thank you for listening the law. Podcast is producing cooperation with the brookings institution. Please take a moment to rate and review the law fair podcast on itunes spotify or wherever. You might be listening to this. Podcast was engineered by ian wright of good rodeo by gen patch howell. Our music was performed by severe yam. As a thank you for. Hey podcast meet they cast. We're the top independent podcast network for creators in the no we empower you to develop your podcast idea. Find your audience and grow listener relationships wherever those listeners are. You'll also find a whole range of ways to make money from membership plans for paying fans to are fully curated and creative advertising experience. Visit a dot com slash network to find out more. Hey cast for the stories. A cast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a new season. And we recommend robert durst allegedly murdered three people over the course of nearly four decades according to prosecutor. John loons kicks the murder of morris black and the murder of kathie durst for inextricably woven into the murder of susan firm instead of telling you the narrative behind major trial. After it's finished we're going to present this story surrounding durst trial for the murder of susan burning as it is happening. I know she asked you for money. What will the jury decide. We're going to find out together. Jury duty the trial of robert durst two from crime story media and eight cast a-cash comments.

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Weekly Update --- Trump Must Back Iraq Withdrawal Promise With Action

Ron Paul Liberty Report

04:19 min | 10 months ago

Weekly Update --- Trump Must Back Iraq Withdrawal Promise With Action

"Hello, everybody, and thank you for tuning into the weekly report. Trump must back Iraq's withdrawal promise with action. Earlier this month while meeting with Iraqi Prime Minister President. Trump. Reaffirmed his intent to remove all U. S. troops from. Iraq. We were there and now we're getting out. We'll be leaving shortly. The president told reporters at the time although President Obama should never have sent US troops back into Iraq in two, thousand and sixteen. It is definitely well past time to remove them as quickly as possible. Over the weekend the administration announced it would be drawing down troops currently in Iraq from fifty, two, hundred, thirty, five, hundred. That's a good start. One Big Road Block to finally leaving Iraq alone is president trump's defacto secretary of war Mike. POMPEO. Although he's supposed to be the top. US. Diplomat Pompeo is a bull in a China shop. He seems determined to start a war with. Iran. China Russia Venezuela and probably a few more countries unfortunately there ears a pattern in this administration where president trump announces withdraw troops from one of the seemingly endless conflicts we are involved in and an administration official often pompeo. Clarify. Is the president's statement to mean the opposite of what the president has just said. When the president was question over the weekend about a timetable for the US withdrawal from Iraq he turned to Pompeo for an answer Pompeo's response did not inspire much hope. As. Soon, as we can complete this mission said, Pompeo, what is the mission? Does anyone know aside from regime change for Iran that is At his speech accepting the Republican, party's nomination for reelection last week. Trump declared unlike previous administrations I have kept Americans out of new wars and our troops here at home that sounds good. But how can he achieve that goal? If the people he hires to carry out that policy not only disagree with him but seem to be working against him The invasion of Iraq. Seventeen years ago was correctly described as time by the late NSA director Bill Odom as the greatest strategic disaster in American history. After a relentless barrage of lies about former US ally, Saddam Hussein, having weapons of mass destruction, the US attack and destruction of Iraq, and not bring peace and prosperity promised by the Neo con war promoters is dead. The US. Liberation of Iraq killed a million Iraqis most of whom were civilians it destroyed. Iraq's relatively prosperous economy. It did not resolve in a more peaceful or stable Middle East. The US had no idea how to remake Iraqi society and in picking and choosing who could participate in post invasion Iraq, the US helped facilitate the rise of al Qaeda and Isis. A secular. had been turned into a sectarian incubator for terrorists and extremists. And the biggest winner in the war was Iran. The US. Has Demonized as an enemy for over four decades. Yes. General ONUM was right. It was a strategic disaster turning the US into global military empire is also a strategic disaster. Trump's promise to bring troops home from overseas wars sounds very good but it's time to see some real action that might mean some people who disagree with the president need to be fired. Thanks for listening.

Iraq US Trump President Diplomat Pompeo POMPEO Iran President Obama Prime Minister Middle East Saddam Hussein China Russia China Bill Odom secretary NSA Mike official
Coachcast #1179  PS  Se voc pudesse ter mais, o que escolheria?


07:43 min | 9 months ago

Coachcast #1179 PS Se voc pudesse ter mais, o que escolheria?

"We're just using a pussy velociter miles is directly Brandon servey that this lollipops enough. I tell you who is Jim Prestige. Don't don't usually will sing star Viggo coach casterbridge, you said. I don't know. Masala Super Genius needs Samir Osman Panama Canal. Do you to be you to be Point, bowling a cicada? You know Millions Takata airbag module vcl should be a key thing goes to the sink resume format 2018 questioning down instead of decreasing this episode to make bombs away passage. Same process set off simple simple decididos amazing quote get out of the Soviet Premier package was this was a party school yet? So yes. Bissell sip on a Windows or a hold of them know we're on the school Channel positive cultural coaching giving start fussing a hold of the biggest chut Ki some said she was simple as it is quite some physical. So would you feel estranged sold You Are Spiritual so GM also now? Yes, I meant out singles. I would give us a positive way. We'll see squally Premera. So I've been lucky she was in school. How would you make it to our back-end always leave off? Which are sucking sake no visible damage the facade suicide would also now in the minds of the Muslim and he took Saddam Hussein was showing it's no moon to Bola Sai be wonderful our subsequent physical our song and dance was this clear as the civic's sake intellect homage Nostalgia mental the silver Coast to get up putting their money to schools know by the multiple devices. So would you physically moving to, Georgia? Don't be silly got my espresso. Jamison was normally the movie 2 + was a spiritual home being. So if you quota sugar largish bog down who said she was his folly. So doing the same you do us so we supposed to let me just a single person was another Dodge in a way. Our senior contests wage and seemed account excuse will not have been involved with independent phone number. Must kill us o g r i m also now, how long do you think that was the thing is meliodas post office was saying stuck was was intellectual age divisions hit their minds as a 1-0. If there's some way to hit Cucina Saddam h e was a party still control submitting this check engine damage. Some authors. Umma baby she mentioned rogozin off probably 4 0 people suffice probably cheaper cuz that's how would you feel if Assad has been for the receiver off the soldier Ellison seemed complimentary wounds problemas en Vie Avatar Ultras Iris, he has been fitted using Mandela's v r. It's not. They don't think seniors are home of it is important that survey the place in his in his phone. He will see a show dog. No. People chemistry Chicago at the Active. Now. This ship is larger than anything else has to let you know just eating at kimm me to steal is wrong. She was off data value to be used to people to come by you can have engine area damage or no Instagram off most about your own reading Kafka plataforma in Greenville Spotify iTunes castbox equal get aggregate or podcasts Halestorm split on the most simple process took a Tela. And it's not too bad.

Mandela Samir Osman Panama Canal Saddam Hussein Brandon servey Jim Prestige Viggo squally Premera GM Chicago Tela Instagram Ellison Jamison Bola Sai Georgia Spotify Assad Kafka Iris
Another Look: The US in Iraq, Deepfakes, Christmas Trees

Skimm This

11:52 min | 1 year ago

Another Look: The US in Iraq, Deepfakes, Christmas Trees

"It's Tuesday January seven. Welcome to skim. This where breaking down the most complex stories of the day and giving you the context on why they matter the latest drama between the US and Iran is catching a rock in the crossfire. The country's parliament has voted to kick out. US troops putting the relationship with a key ally at odds then. Congress is back in session but what they'll do about impeachment is still anyone's guess finally feeling the Post Holiday Blues. We'll explain how your Christmas tree could enjoy. A second can live. We're here to make your evening smarter. Let's skim this. The most complicated story three of the day is about the future of US troops in Iraq on yesterday's show. We told you about all of the drama between the US and Iran remember last week the US killed. Iran's on top General Qasim Sulamani Iranians have been in mourning for days but Iran's next door neighbor Iraq is also pretty upset about the killing. That's because Assoumani was targeted in a drone strike while he was in Iraq he had just landed at Baghdad. Airport and it was leaving in a convoy when the US killed him and an Iraqi militia leader leader now Iraq making sure it's voices heard amidst all the US Iran drama so today we're GONNA get into how Iraq and the US are responding to all all of the fallout and why US troops are in Iraq to begin with. Let's get into it starting with a little history lesson the. US has been militarily involved involved in Iraq for a long time the US in Iraq fought against each other during the first Gulf War in the early nineties but the big one was in the Iraq war in the early two thousands Zain's after nine eleven the US almost immediately invaded Afghanistan as part of its war on terrorism but the Bush administration was also concerned about Iraq and and whether it's President Saddam Hussein was working with terrorists to develop weapons of mass destruction so in March of two thousand and three on my orders. Coalition forces forces have begun striking selected targets military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war so the US was involved in another war for years. Even saying didn't have those weapons of mass destruction after all but President Obama wanted out here. He was in December two thousand eleven. The last asked American soldiers will cross the border out of Iraq with honor and with their heads held high after nearly nine years. Our war in Iraq and this month the war might have been officially over but the fighting wasn't while most of the troops crossed the border like Obama said there were still thousands of American boots still on the ground in Iraq they were helping with the transition out of war but there was something else on the horizon to the the rise of Isis around two thousand thirteen that battle against Isis kept the US in Iraq and up through last year about five thousand US troops were still over there which brings us back to recent events a couple of weeks ago an American contractor was killed in Iraq. The U was blamed that attack on a group with ties to Iran on so the. US conducted air strikes in Iraq and Syria. Killing twenty four people then protesters also believed to be pro. Iran broke into the US embassy in Baghdad. That's what led up to the drone strike. We mentioned at the beginning of the show. The one that not only killed Iran's top general but also Iraqis as collateral damage even though the US and Iraq or allies and they've been working together to fight. Terrorism tensions have been escalating and now Iraq is kind of over it doc on Saturday crowds gathered in Iraq for a funeral procession for those two military leaders and on Sunday. Iraq's parliament voted to kick U. S. troops out of the country that decision got a lot of media coverage to be clear it was a non binding resolution it hasn't been signed by Iraq's Prime Minister and the Iraqi government hasn't hasn't officially told the US to get out so nothing about this vote means the US actually has to leave yet though if Iraq did kick out. US troops president in trump told reporters. Today Iraq would come to regret it. I think it's the worst thing that can happen to Iraq. If we leave that would mean that Iran would have a much bigger foothold and and the people of Iraq do not want to see Iran running the company that the country that I can tell you whatever Iraq does. US officials are starting to prepare some possible responses. anyways one response was his star. Drafting trump called very big sanctions on Iraq as potential punishment another response to consider actually pulling troops out of Iraq. Yesterday a letter was accidentally released saying that. US troops would leave Iraq but military leaders were quick to say the letter was just a draft. Pretend you never saw that as we wait to see if Iraq does enforce the resolution to expel. US troops and how the trump administration might choose to respond. Iraq is trying trying to get some heavyweights to weigh in earlier today. The Associated Press reported that Iraq's ambassador to the United Nations called on the UN Security Council to condemn the US drone trike. That's unlikely to happen. But the symbolism of the move is pretty bold a US ally in the Middle East is telling the US you cross the line uh so what's the scam. Tensions between the US and some countries in the Middle East are running high right now. Even though most reports are talking about Iran the drama between the US and Iraq shouldn't be overlooked. Stacey Pettijohn directs the Strategy and doctrine program at the Rand Corporation this is assigned that the US US presidents in Iraq which has always been brother sensitive is now incredibly politicized whether US troops will be forced to leave Iraq and whether the US decides rights to impose a new set of crippling sanctions on its ally is up in the air but whatever happens next could have big implications on national security and US military Harry standing in the Middle East lawmakers from both the US Congress and UK. Parliament are turning off their out of office notifications this week and buckling in for what's likely to be a very busy New Year back before the holidays the UK held new elections and prime minister. Boris Johnson's Conservative Party. got a big a big boost. His new parliament then passed brexit deal now. Members of parliament are back to work to put some final touches on things. Starting today they'll debate brexit for the three final days before taking a final vote on Thursday. Then brexit is set for a final final approval in the House of Lords with the new conservative majority. The bill is likely to pass ensuring that brexit will actually happen on January thirty first after that there are still a lot of things to figure out like what if you trade deal would look like what the e Oh you but at least for now. It's looking like breaking up. is a little less hard to do back here in the states or across the pond the US Congress is well dealing with allot before the latest news on Iran the House of Representatives took off for the holidays after passing two articles of impeachment against President trump trump but without officially sending them over to the Senate. That's the necessary next step in the impeachment process but House Speaker Nancy. Pelosi's holding back the goods. She she says that I she needs to know that if a Senate trial were to happen that it would be fair one thing she wants a Senate trial to include new witnesses. People like John Bolton trump's former national security adviser who is thought to have a lot of new firsthand info about President Trump's conversations with Ukraine yesterday today Bolton came out and said L.. Testify if you subpoena me so far. Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch. McConnell has basically said he's not interested did in hearing from any more witnesses but Bolton's announcement has led Senate Democrats to try and convince some of their Republican colleagues to get on board with issuing a subpoena Democrats would need to flip at least four Republicans to make that happen though we should say Pelosi strategy of buying some extra time could also backfire yesterday yesterday about a dozen Republican senators put forward a resolution that would give the House of Reps just twenty five days to send the impeachment articles over to the Senate or else. Senators could both dismiss impeachment without the articles through a simple majority vote so both sides in Congress aren't exactly chilling out at the start of twenty twenty the last night facebook announced a new policy to try to limit the spread of misinformation by cracking down on something called deep bakes. Deep Deep. Aches are videos edited with artificial intelligence tools to make it look like people are saying things. They never sat the editing on. Some of these videos is so high tech it can be hard to tell. They're not real. Sometimes the results are funny like when Kiana space is digitally inserted into old movies but think about how deep fakes could be used in an election year to make it look like candidates are saying things they'd never say. Suddenly deep bakes are no laughing matter. So how does facebook hope to spot and take shakedown. Deep fix seems it takes one to know one. The company is hosting a challenge to develop a tools to detect content. That's being faked by tools. But not everyone is impressed. Some say the policy doesn't do enough to address. Equally misleading videos made using less sophisticated methods like when a video of house speaker. Nancy Pelosi was deliberately slowed down to make it sound like she was slurring her words. FACEBOOK also says won't take down parody or satire videos or videos that just change the order of someone's words so as the two thousand twenty campaign heats up. We could still see videos like this one. A former president Obama posted by Youtube user barracks dubs number. So Paul me baby if you WANNA learn more about deep fakes check out our audio deep dive available only in the scheme APP. How over to the APP store download and start your free trial today way before we go today? We've got fun fact coming to you from your Christmas trees new home. If the end of the holiday season is jump. Starting Your January blues turns out your Christmas. Mystery could have a second life the staff and New Jersey's Island Beach State Park recently put out a call for discarded Christmas trees they wanted help rebuilding sand dunes chance to protect against beach erosion. And we're hoping for two hundred trees. They wound up getting over two thousand but are totally rolling with it now. The Park Clark just needs volunteers to drag the trees into position not near New Jersey. Check with your local officials to find out other ways to recycle your tree like turning it into compost reinforcing natural habitats or even using it as food for goats. How's that for a holiday gift that keeps on giving and that's all for skin this? Thanks again for listening and be sure to subscribe and rate and review us on Apple. PODCASTS if you want to add the this Kim your morning routine sign up for a free newsletter. The daily skipped right on our website at the skin dot com. It's everything you need to know to start your day right in your inbox.

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Ep. 13: EMERGENCY PODCAST SYSTEM  Trump Assassinates Soleimani  An Act of War


28:31 min | 1 year ago

Ep. 13: EMERGENCY PODCAST SYSTEM Trump Assassinates Soleimani An Act of War

"Hi this is Michael Moore. I am going to play for you right now. A podcast that I recorded in the middle of the night last last night Just a couple of hours after we all got word of what our president did and ordering the assassination of an Iranian leader When I played it back at the end The sound quality was not good That's because I didn't go into my podcast room. I just recorded from the heart on my iphone so I wasn't going to post it and I thought now this is. This is exactly how I was feeling in the moment after I learned the news and You'll forgive the sound quality And in my apologies for that no apologies. Though for how I am feeling how. I'm sure you're feeling right now. So here it is. Thank you in advance for this thing. It's the middle of the night. The third of January twenty twenty were barely two days into the New Year and Donald Trump is trying to start a war in in fact. That's what they're calling it in the press in the middle of the night here on TV online media outlets around the world are calling it an act eight of war an act of war done in Our Name. And what was this. ACT The United States of America assassinating the number two person in the country of Iran. I know well we knew this was coming. I mean trump has been saying since stay one that he was going to go. After Iran he got rid of the Iran. Nuclear deal at Obama had had done with the Iranians hands and all the UN inspectors and everybody had said that they Aram was complying. And they weren't going to be building nuclear bomb. That seem like a good idea. Yeah and trumpet. Want any part of that and he just he just ended ended the deal. Why because Obama did the deal? That's been the number. One policy directive of the trump administration is to anything that has Obama's name on it is no good and has to be it done away with. I've been going online here. I've been reading from the news from around the world from the Muslim world. Qassam Assam Sulejmani was his name. You're going to be hearing all day today now. He's a terrorist. He's the worst he is the number of CNBC. We actually just saw this number one bad guy in the world. He's killed Americans. He's remembers name. I just you said a minute ago no juno is no I. I didn't know what it was. I mean seriously they by the end of today you will know that he is the latest Osama bin Laden or Baghdadi or whatever Qassam Soleimani. Yeah never heard them right. This is how it's done the big lie. It's been told to so many times. You know we've been in the assassination assignation business for quite some time. I don't know that was taught to you in school but we assassinate leaders. We started out actually when we first came to this country us. I'm I'm talking referring to the white people. We assassinated Indian leaders native leaders chiefs etc the first assassination. I remember conducted by us you and me where the United States citizens those of us who are citizens here we pay our taxes so that means we fund this was nineteen sixty three nine years old. It's three weeks before the assassination of John F Kennedy early November nineteen sixty three in the CIA decides to help stage a coup in south Vietnam and have the the president of South Vietnam assassinated. His name was President Diem Because he was playing ball. We needed Dr Guy in there. We needed our own dictator to run South Vietnam and within a year or so we faked an excuse. We lied about the North Vietnamese attacking one of our ships. We talked about this a couple of weeks ago when we had Daniel Ellsberg on this this podcast. Actually this wasn't supposed to be the PODCAST for today. We had just finished producing today's podcast when the news broke of trump assassinating the number two top official in Iran ordering ordering the assassination and making sure it was completed and we found out about this when we thought well we can't we can't air the podcast. We just finished here here. We we try to post them around five or six in the morning so that you can listen to this on the way to work If need be so we decided to pull it and then started reading and watching and seeing trying to figure out what was going on where we actually in another war is that possible and And then we decided you know we need to do. We just need to go right on here because the sun and We're GONNA do the podcast in the middle of the night. We talked about this on our first podcast a little over two weeks ago that occasionally when it was warranted we would have of what we were inaugurating initiating the emergency podcast system and we would we would just break in or we would just get get on the microphone and get this posted no matter what time of day or night it was if there was some event that took place in this country in in the world that needed our attention. Your attention my attention right away Rumble rumbles emergency podcast system and So this is the first one. This is the first time that we're doing this off our usual schedule so I'm just going to talk to you for a few minutes and then maybe later today we'll come back when we have more information but I really want. I really wanted to say something here before. The country falls into the grip of the propaganda machine that is going to be telling one falsehood after another today in order to justify this crime. And I don't think you don't have to be a BRAINIAC to figure out what trump is doing here. I mean Clinton Debt Bill Clinton just days before his impeachment ordered an air strike and as a result they they had to delay the impeachment vote. And where did he order the air strike on Iraq. He bombed Iraq to try to distract act from his impeachment to try and stop the vote which they did they stopped it. I think for at least a couple of days. It didn't matter they impeached him anyway anyway. And here's trump just days away from his trial in the Senate whenever the Senate finally agrees to behave like like not a kangaroo court but a fair a fair and just body to hear the evidence and to hear the witnesses. When that happens speaker Pelosi will hand over the articles of impeachment but trump? I mean there's no greater way to get Americans attention off anything than by doing something that could end up having to send our sons and daughters once again off to a needless stupid stupid war or or to do something as he did last night. That could end up costing the lives of innocent people people Americans who are the dead Americans the soon to be dead Americans because of this ridiculous stupid act you know. It's not just that we've again like I said this isn't the first time we've done this. We have staged coups. We've and and we have. We have involved ourselves interfering and other countries elections for a good seventy plus years us. I'm GonNa talk about the Russians now us we. We're like the inventors of election interfering. We're the O. G. of this there. There's a you you can go online. It's like a list of three or four dozen countries where we we our CIA our tax dollars. That's where we've put up fake candidates where we've donated money to the campaigns of candidates that we wanted to win and when they didn't win we did things to to try to remove them from office or stage coups or or in some cases assassinate them Salvador Allende democratically quickly elected president of Chile back in nineteen. Seventy three we help stage a coup and then he was either assassinated fascinated or he took his life as they were coming to kill him. Some dispute on that I think but nonetheless democratically elected president. We didn't like them. Why didn't we like him? Because he wanted nationalize some of the businesses. You try to do that here. Come the Americans folks. You know who who else tried to do that. The democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran in Nineteen fifty three. He came into office and he thought you know the oil. That's in our country under the ground. That's a natural resource that belongs to all the people not to American and British oil companies companies so he Saddam this now belongs to us and you can come in and you know extract it and we can lease to kind of what the Norwegians do today. That's all they they do. They only oil not real companies and for that the Prime Minister of Iran was removed. A coup was staged. He was forced out he was put under house arrest for most of the rest of his life and we installed someone called the Shah of Iran. The king the king of kings they call them the shaw of Iran. Ah dictator that that the United States and the British help install and he was there for almost twenty five years and he was a brutal dictator. Thousands of people died were tortured suffered under him and eventually by around nine thousand. Nine hundred seventy-nine the people of Iran rose up. They had a revolution kind of like what we did. You know when people are kind of tired of the King King of kings the dictator they rise up they rise that stats the lesson of history. They rise up and the Iranians rose up and overthrew the shah and they formed their own government and the religious leaders got control as they are want to do and many countries many religions and and the ayatollah ran things and that was that also took hostages to they took people in our worked in our embassy and And held them for nearly a I think nearly a year and then they were released A couple of minutes after Ronald Reagan it was inaugurated as president. I'm sure there's a story there somewhere. That's our history with Iran we. We're you so many years of of oppression at the hands of the United States. This is what happens a year later. our ally ally Saddam Hussein Saddam. Hussein did I say ally ally our friend. He's our friend back then. Saddam Hussein aimed decided to invade Iran Iraq invading Iran and. We supplied them with arms. We helped him when he want to. Use Chemical Co weapons. We gave him the satellite positions of where the Iranians were where the troops were there were. The estimates are all over the map on how many many people died in the Iraq Iran war between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty eight. But somewhere between a half a million a million people died were killed in a war that we helped to fuel in fact we were so sick about this that we not only were basically on Saddam's side side supporting the Iraqis and giving them these weapons including chemical weapons the chemical weapons that that remember when we invaded Iraq saying when he had weapons of mass destruction back in two thousand and three. Yeah those weapons. He supposedly have well. We knew that because we had given him chemical weapons and weapons of mass destruction to attack Iran and we helped Saddam kill hundreds of thousands if not upwards two million of Iranians and how do you think the Iranians feel about US probably not too good Yeah and we invade the country next to them and then we wonder why. Why why this general this Sola Mani why why did he in the Iranian Revolutionary Guard? I think this is not a good idea to have the Americans right next door so they start to help militias and they start to help groups in Iraq fight the US troops that are invading vacating kill US troops that are invading. Because you know that's what happens when you invade somebody else's country when that country has innovated did you when that country hasn't bombed you or killed you you just go in and invade them because you want their oil for whatever the reason so yeah. Iran cut involved. Iran got involved and helped helped Shia Muslims in Iraq stopped the American troops. Six what you do. US troops invading your Tom. come down your street shooting everything in sight killing children. What would you do would you? Do you know what you do. That's what they did us. That's what they did to our air young boys and girls who had signed up to defend this country in case we were ever for attacked our volunteer army. They sign up the Navy Marines Air Force. They sign up. They volunteer to protect us. Just in case case and a lot of them signed up after nine eleven right after nine eleven never thinking for a second that they would be sent to a country that had nothing to do with nine eleven the country of Iraq and we lost. We lost over. I think over four thousand now now now in a war that never really seems to end us. It's so sad but to put the say the Salamone Guy who's responsible for their deaths. Well no George W Bush and Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld are responsible for their deaths. And if there's a God in heaven or a judge in The Hague someday they will receive their justice. There is an international court of criminal justice. We don't participate in it because well we would have too many of our people in the docket there because of the crimes that are are committed in Our Name we lost all those lives. We killed in that war when I say we remember if you you pay your taxes. It's we we fund that even though we might oppose it even though we might demonstrate against it if it's done in our name and we haven't stopped it and we're paying for it. It's you and I we between the Clinton Embargo and what and the bombing he did of Iraq in the nineties and the George W Bush war in the in the two thousands. We were responsible for again them. The estimates are all over the map. Five hundred thousand close to a million. We don't know daddy rockies. Because of the bombings killings the sanctions Clinton used to do creative things like the bomb. Their water supply their drinking water or bomb. Their their facilities that produce electricity. So that they would go with days or weeks without electricity electricity. Just the things that really caused a lot of harm And and directly or indirectly caused the deaths of old people and young people hospitals and couldn't operate properly. We did that and so here. We are again last night in the assassination business US killing a top Iranian official. And what thinking. Nothing's going to happen now or we'll stay distracted we won't be thinking about convicting trump. All of our attention. Go to this. You know. We're we're one month from today is the first caucus in Iowa for our twenty twenty election one month from today. Let's get the attention off at two off the person that we're going to choose. Who's going to replace this bastard? That's what's going on. We know you know it in a we've been. We've been fooled so many times in our history in our recent history. I think by now especially I think especially if you're young if you're a teenager listen to this you're in college. You're in your twenties at spat enough really the world that we are handing you that we would take queue into another war after many of you may have seen an older brother or sister. Go off to Iraq or Afghanistan. Maybe lost somebody in your family family in your neighborhood to those wars those wars. That still continue. You know. It's just it's I think you know before I sign off here I just I just want you to not fall for any of the lies. You're going to be told today. Don't trust anything. You're hearing question question everything. Look it up look up the history of this. Look what we've done to the Iranian people. Oh just since the nineteen fifties the misery and the pain and the suffering. That we've caused them. I don't WanNA use the word we anymore of this and I don't want anybody assassinated in my name. This is going to come back to haunt us in in a very very bad bad way and trump doesn't give a shit my friends. This is all about him not planning to leave the Oval Office a year from in this month. Innocent is only trick that he's got up his sleeve. We already know that we already know the situation with our our whole election system with the His collusion with the Russians. He's had another had a meeting. I think on the phone just this just just this past Sunday with Putin in the days just before this assassination. What else do they have cooked up? I know I don't want to say these things because I don't want I want you to sink into some even worse despair than you're already in about this or to say what's the use. Why bother voting? Why get involved? This year doesn't matter I don't have any say in this. I'm not going to be able to stop this. That's true. Don't fall for that. There are more of us than there are of them yes. Trump is going to do well in the election. I don't think he's lost. Hardly any of his base of support but he lost no matter how big geoghegan and how angry basis. There's not enough of them and they know it. Here's here's here's a piece of good news in in the in the Three plus years since he was elected over twelve million seventeen year olds turned eighteen. Eighteen became eligible to vote twelve million new young people. I mean that if you just think about that if just half for them vote were in good shape. The young people know the bullshit here. The young people who woke up this morning or waking up this morning right now to hear that that we may be going to war again because I love that we not people our age. They're going to go to war and they are not going to vote for anybody who is sending them often fool's errand to die for nothing so watch what's going on today. Pay attention to what is being done. These Damn Democrats. I'm sorry to swear like that because because Dan we need them. We need them to do the job they're supposed to do but dammit they're already. They're already on the news early this morning. You always have to begin everything they're going to say by saying what an awful person this was that was assassinated. Hey Hey news flash. There's a lot of awful people on this planet. There's some awful awful people and we're not going to assassinate them are we. It's at the plan. Let's just round up all the bad people and assassinate them. No no there's lots of ways to contain the people that seek to do harm. This isn't going to end the way that trump wants to end. But that's up to us. That's up to us to to fight this up from day. One and I bring up the Democrats only because when the I think it's called the NDA the National Defense Authorization Authorization Act for twenty twenty when this was debated and they and they had these provisions in there for money to get ready to do whatever you do to Iran and to authorize to get the authorization should the trump that should. He need to do what he needed to do. Regarding Iran and all but nine Democrats in the US Senate voted for this. I think there's going. What are their forty seven? Democrats in the Independent Bernie. The caucuses with the Democrats forty seven of the forty seven. Only nine I refuse to give trump this authorisation for what he did last night. I'm GonNa tell you who they are. There were there were four. The voted no and there were five. Who are out on the campaign trail and miss the vote so a good on them Not Present Because they were running for president or Bernie and Elizabeth with Warren Cory Booker Amy Klobuchar and and come a- Harris but there were four who who stood there in the Senate that day and voted no Kirsten Gillibrand of New York Senators Senators Wyden and and And Merkley of Oregon and Ed Markey of Massachusetts. That's it all. The other dams voted for trump's defense authorization act bloated military budget a crazy homeland security operation ice all the stuff and the authorization to allow the president. Want to do things like what he did last night. And then he didn't even even have the decency to inform members of Congress about what he was about to do last night and he sat there mar-a-lago wining and dining played the whole day of golf beforehand. All well this has been set up to kill a bunch of people not rogue terrorists but but people who are officials of another country Watsa countries. We don't like Depending on who you are where you're you're from or what you believe in or whatever I mean you may like this country not like that country. But I think we're hopefully we've reached the point of civilization where you just don't assassinate people in these countries what you're not at war with a country. My friends Talk to your friends today at work. Talk to your neighbors. Talk to your family members Pay attention to what's going on. Don't fall for it Call up the call up the Senate today Some of them are already back. They don't officially start work till Monday. But call them up. Even the ones that aren't in their staff is there you can tell the staff no war. No War no assassinating leaders of other. Our country's let them hear that loud and clear you want to support the troops. Make sure they're not sent over there to die. Call Congress today literally they pick up the phone. Pick up the phone and you say I want. I'm from the state or that state. I WanNa talk to one of my. I two senators. You don't even have to know their names. You should know their names but if you don't you don't just caught call. I'll give you the number right now. If you don't have some the write this down with or can't remember you can look it up online. Call the Senate switchboard United States. Senate two zero two two the two four three one two one. I'll give it to you again to oh two two two four three one to one call and ask to speak to the office of the Senate one of the two senators from your estate and tell them no war with Iran. Stop the madness. You have the power to do this. Millions of US can do this today. Thank you for letting me take this. This unplanned planned time with you to talk about this and And I'll try to check back in. We'll do another emergency urgency podcast here later today when we have new information and and more thought and planning thing into how we can all respond and act But in the meantime thank you For listening to the rumble with Michael Moore and I wish you in this world the best today thank you.

Iran United States Donald Trump Iraq president Senate Saddam Hussein Saddam Obama Michael Moore CIA Bill Clinton President Diem official UN Osama bin Laden Senate Daniel Ellsberg
In Iraq, Herding Water Buffalo Is Once Again A Growing Industry

NPR's World Story of the Day

03:49 min | 2 months ago

In Iraq, Herding Water Buffalo Is Once Again A Growing Industry

"In iraq giant fields drive the economy but there are also some more traditional ways to make a living including hurting water buffalo and it is an industry that appears to be growing again. Here's npr's alice fordham. If it wasn't for the outboard motors across the marshlands of southern iraq. You could easily imagine you traveled back. Thousands of years long flat boats a bit like canoes. Skim through deep. Channels between tool grosses full of chirping toads and birds. I see to king fishes in the door and sunshine putin scenes as we pause. Boats headed back to town laden with fish while we pull up to an island with a large house built of woven reeds and about a hundred buffalo snuffing clouds at rush into the tweet. Mooning inside the house with his wife and children buffalo-herder aaliyah's tells me about his typical day. He gets put five. He says and praise and milks. The buffalo feeds the baby buffalo's and sends the big ones swimming in the march. Two grays. then he hops in a bump to the nearby town of tobias to sell the milk the equivalent of about fifteen dollars. He buys things like drinking. Water comes back gathers gross for the little. Buffalo's this part of the world has been farmed for crops and animals since ancient times artwork. Show buffalo's here from about two thousand bc. During the dictatorship of saddam hussein rebels hit in the marshes and he drains them displacing buffalo herders and fishing families but they were re flooded after the two thousand three invasion of iraq and gradually people have returned to the traditional way of life and then making a living doosan moustache every year. Holly be says he sells maybe ten or fifteen buffaloes for the equivalent of five hundred dollars each so. He earns a bit more than say a teacher. But it's multiple stable teachers and other government. Employees sometimes aren't paid when the oil price goes down. The government is trying to get people off the state payroll and back into agriculture. As agriculture ministry spokesman tells me in baghdad brand new lisera. Agriculture is while the oil price lately fell to ten dollars. A barrel he says could be over in the government plans to strengthen acura culture last year banned the import of agricultural products including onions and eggplants to encourage people to buy from iraqi pharma's garnered knit mccain comes with money and i have says the number of buffalo's being fond has increased from two hundred eighty. Five thousand two years ago to three hundred eighty five thousand now as the government works with the united nations to support new buffalo herders. With things like artificial insemination programs in the marshes. They've seen gouges and badges would booty levels at and flows. They're not going anywhere. Judge says his father and grandfather did this. he doesn't know any other job. His family does have a house in town with a fridge electricity. And all that. But it's clear where his heart lies of life here he says allah's fordham npr news to bash iran.

buffalo alice fordham iraq herder aaliyah npr putin tobias saddam hussein Buffalo swimming Holly baghdad acura new buffalo mccain united nations government
ICYMI - Jon Stewart on Confederate Statue Removal, the Coronavirus Pandemic & "Irresistible"

The Daily Show with Trevor Noah: Ears Edition

12:17 min | 1 year ago

ICYMI - Jon Stewart on Confederate Statue Removal, the Coronavirus Pandemic & "Irresistible"

"You're listening to comedy central. Where are you right like what is this? What is this room behind you? I'm in my attic. Marrone when my children were younger. this was their playroom, and so they did a lot of doodling or their cousins did what they come up with their cousins, and then they grew up. And decided you know what I'm just going to stay in my room, quarantine or no quarantine And you'RE GONNA go up into the attic we've done. It's funny because like it's. It's beautiful now. That was your kids who did that, but it almost looks like the same graffiti that's on like the confederate monuments around America. It looks like you let people practice the graffiti at your house before they go to the monuments, so they can get it right and Tika has infiltrated my hat. I'm doing the best I can, but they are rabble-rousers. And as you can see. They have decided that the this wall must. This is the Berlin Wall. And they're gonNA take it down. What are you? What are you? What do you make of all that like like? Honestly because you don't like? I mean this just like the confederate monuments like every statue down. I mean it started with confederate statues. It started with. You know like racist people from history. Then we started just seeing you don't statues coming down. All of like people who fought for the Union and people who fought against slavery, and like what do you make just chew? Just get rid of statues. What's going on what you'll find is? If you don't allow regular order to take down the statues that represent the insurrection that tried to destroy this country and preserve the institution of slavery. Ch- if you make that impossible to do through. Pleading a peaceful entreaty, and all that you're going to end up with a spasm, look. People shouldn't have. Four hundred, the statues are not from the confederate era from the Jim Crow era. They're crying when they built to say jussie now I know. They let you go I just WANNA make sure everybody understands like we will still subjugate of this. And bring fear of your life. So. You know because these statues are not people say like you're racing history, which by the way I don't remember the Conservatives during the Iraq, war. When the Saddam Hussein statue fell Baghdad I. Don't recall Republicans at the time going. Big, mistake! That's your history. Be. So you, know. The the plaque on the statue is not history doesn't say this mother. Thought, he should fight a war to ensure that he can have slaves. Still. Benefit And that and then we put it up to instill fear in the people that we kept his as slaves and their descendants, so this should have been done in short order by a normal functioning society. Years ago you know you say you say something interesting, and that is a normal functioning society. It feels like normal functioning and society of three words that are very quick quickly slipping away all over the world, people are dealing with the same thing that is crawling virus, but I honestly believe that America might be the only country where it seen as a political issue. To pandemic. Do, you know what I mean. It seems like something you can choose to believe in or not or or where you stand politically defines with like the. Of the virus, whereas in other places, they about how to deal with it, but the virus itself is not like a political issue. And their arguments listen, it's we're not the only country that's arguing about. How much to limit freedom of movement and have no in Italy's saw. You know big demonstration and protests against Trying to. Can find people to a certain extent, but I think a reasonable view of it would be. It's not being done for the sake of tyranny. We are actually facing something were tens of thousands of people are dying and. It's you know if you think about it like. It's like the pairing for hurricane. You know when when a hurricane is coming. There's always people that are like. Government full of Shit I'M NOT GONNA board up my windows out, but this is a hurricane that if we prepare for the hurricane. Kids! And that's that doesn't happen. Normally. But because in this country now we've set up parallel universes. In in in the multi verse that other right libs in. You know this is an infringement. Kind of the mask thing what blows my mind because. Sturgeons where the operating rooms. And they don't wear them because they drive volvos sit chai. They wear them. So I just WANNA. Say People on the massively great. Next, time you're having an operation and the surgeon comes in. With washed hands in a mass. Just be like. Don't be pushed. You don't be some liberal posts. You take off that mask you on wash your hands, and you stick your pause in my open gaping wound. Apparently sanitary conditions. are a liberal mess. I knew you know obviously i. mean when you each other. When you're leaving the daily show you like I'm getting into different things. I'm taking time with my family. I'm going to do a movie hero there. It was interesting for me to see you do a political movie you know I was like John, Andre just, GonNa get away from politics altogether, but then you made a movie that wasn't just about politics, but it was almost about the game that is beneath politics. I was shocked. The first time I went to New Hampshire for the primaries. and. And I was sitting with. You know like the aids of these of these these politicians. And even the reporters and they were like. Oh yeah they hang out, they they chat got drink softwoods and I was like what do you? What do you mean? They hate each other on screen? And then we hate people on each other's behalf and I. See it happening in the country, but they are friends, and I didn't understand that concept, and it seems like that's what you're showing. People in this movie is that. We don't realize that the wwe of politics is not as real as we think it is, and we're willing to die for the undertake, but the undertaker's just a guy named bill who goes home with triple H, and they call you know what I mean. Let's not draw the undertaker this first of all. is a marvellous resin and was undefeated. Wrestlemainia let's not until obviously. Listen listen, I didn't WANNA. Make movie about the political moment. writes. The daily show and that's what you guys do so well. Is You do the weather? Every night you come out and you talk about the political moment. and You bring funny and the insight and the context to the political moment. I really wanted to think about it as the climate and the system, and that idea that we have kind of created this complex of. Media. And moneyed interests and politicians and they all. Work and enrich each other, and there's very little accountability, and it grows in those types of. Symbiotic structures don't dismantle themselves. Here's an assistant system with its own inertia and energy and self, interest and incentives to entrench itself into grow itself, and it's really at odds with. Any relevant facts on the ground are the system we have placed to elect. People is almost working at thankfully to the system. We had in place to try and govern people. and. We don't really have a robust governance system. But, we've got an. Enriching and robust and corrupt and corrosive system. On election campaigns insolence, so do you see a change? Do you see an end where you go like? Oh, no, it's something. Is GonNa happen that shuts down. where I'm optimistic is. There are such talented committed. Energized people. Taking the reins of these really. Rotted out. husks of institutions. And you get the sense. That they're committed to rebuilding them. In a manner that is going to create a sturdier foundation and so much of this country what you learn from this and the pandemic exacerbates it. You know what essential. Turns out all the people in this country. Who are essential. To its functioning. Are the lowest paid. And how did we create? How do we? You know! For many years we've gone on this principle of if we just take care of the investor class. Will get a taste and I don't say we. I'm I'm now up there. But. The pendulum has swung away from valuing work. And we have to figure out you know, and they always talk about the people that talk about dinner always about freedom and liberty well. What's more liberating than? Not Having to worry about your health insurance being tied your job or Working really hard, but still having to use food stamps. That's not freedom. And we have to find a way to make those in this country who are. Able. To give them more liberty. And more liberty comes from. Being able to live a life. That is built on granite and not quicksand. I could talk to you forever. My friend thank you so much for joining us again. I hope everyone watches the movie. I. Hope You're having fun. I hope you're staying healthy out your loving your family and your kids and enjoying yourself and let me say. May I have a moment? Yeah I'm so impressed by everything. Up You're looking at your face but condemn. I'm so impressed by everything that you guys are doing and insights of the show in the hilarity show, and the it's just it's. It's magnificent. And I just wanted to tell you this I. Know what goes into making it. So I am impressed for the right reasons. Because of how hard I know that it is an how beautifully doing. The only thing I would say. Do. You have to do it so handsomely? that. handsomeness if I may. Feels a little bit like a personal attack. The other stop what I love, but if you the show. Without dimples. Saying. I will I will possibly comments on management's and we'll see what we can do. Jon Stewart. Thank you so much for joining us on the show I. Hope to see you again. Look after yourself. Look at yourself to take action. Thank you, Buddy. I don't even know how to hang up so. The daily show, but criminal years addition watch the show weeknights at eleven ten central on comedy Central and comedy central. Watch full episodes and videos at the daily show dot com follow us on facebook, twitter and Instagram, and subscribe to the feelings show on youtube exclusive content and more. This has been a comedy central podcast.

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Episode 302 - Jihad and Crusade

Atheist Nomads

1:02:41 hr | 2 years ago

Episode 302 - Jihad and Crusade

"Atheist nomads absurd. Three zero two g hod and crusades podcast. You're about to listen to includes cursing and talking about who Hawes. Please be advised. Welcome to episode of atheists. Nomads? I am Dustin. Joining me as Lauren barely. And we have Aaron. And Rocco kylie's wearing a Kentucky Derby hat. She's wearing a dollar store hat that has some cheap plastic flower. Right. Glued to it. Actually. Both the flowers are it off now and still cute. Yup. She's entertained so. Oh, yeah. Yeah. As Caleb can attest to. Yeah. So this week I do have to do a disclaimer that the views expressed in this episode absolutely do not in any way represent the views of my employer, which is part of why I am looking for a new job. I am still employed. I am. Oh, that's good. If I if I make a statement like this it will protect me under policy. So oh, yeah. They recently issued a social media policy, and this is not social media. But it has get posted to social media and. Yeah, okay. So yeah, my views do not represent my employer. Right. Yeah. I don't ever want to work for a company that makes me have to censor myself on. It's amazing. You don't want. Nobody wants to write and then your employer that you're working for it gets purchased by. Well, yeah. By the monster. No, Kylie this one. Actually, if we want to go with the views of a lot of Protestants when your employer gets bought out by the BC's from revelation. Granted it was already owned by. It was already Catholic on. It was more insulated just due to the way corporate structure was there is no insulation. But anyway. Yeah. On my birthday. We saw sticker on a car that read all see your jihad and raise you a crusade. This was one of several stickers man troubling stickers all of them. Yeah. I mean, it would seem to be it was pretty clear that this person was a combat veteran from the Iraq war who is not has not done a very good job of adjusting back to civilian life. Yeah. Here maybe they. Have PTSD in can't get a job or something? But it was a pretty nice truck. The truck the truck was our at think it was more of the mentality of the wars. So going we need to defeat the enemy at all costs. Can't take away. My goons. Yeah. I just signed on the way back from the coast to Portland and the sign was a big billboard on a farm on the side of the road, or whatever. And it said legislators wanna take away our guns. Yup. Yeah. With fifteen organ in the background. I was like, okay. Cool. Did I turn to Christina? I was like to to know that legislators are trying to take away. Did you know, did you know? It's like when we we're driving to California through the empty farm fields. And they're all these billboards poses said legislatures are trying to take away your, you know, this or this farm is empty because of so-and-so and. No, no. Because if you look past this one acre full, and you're only have the one thing Barron to further your political agenda as you want all the water. All so an pistachios and avacado 's I miss dearly. I didn't let that that sticker stickers ruin the good evening that I was having. It was my birthday. I guess awesome. An amazing amazing stick good like easily top five best steaks. I've ever had on that ask state online horn steakhouse, and it was surprised me because it's a chain restaurant. Yeah. It's but they could do stuff pro rail. Well, yeah. Oh, the shrimp Scampi. I had was amazing. A hat in my face kid. Yeah. And then you went to the zoo both of you birthdays or a day apart, data heart. Yeah. The twenty eighth and the twenty ninth very cool. So birthday weekend is a thing. Yeah. And if it's in the middle of the week it's birthday week. Right. And I mean every once in a while depending on how much cash flow in its birthday month. Oh, I was going to say what about birthday month while used to be birthday two weeks because I used to go to Idaho falls. Visit my mom and dad. Yeah. The weekend before and then that big birthday weekend the weekend after two trips. Kylie she's talking into the microphone like proper job. You wanna talk into the microphones. Now, she's getting shy. So so anyway, after seeing the birthday was awesome. But after seeing that sticker mini golf by so much fun, porn one. Everybody one point nice worth it. So after seeing that sticker. I didn't I didn't let it get me down and wants to discuss faded. I realized oh there's opportunities for dust off the degree here. Let's do it. So what do jihad and crusade mean, and which one is worse. I would say both of them are pretty bad. I mean, it depends on what religion you are. Right. Yeah. Exactly. And also what areas I think they're pretty much the same actually there. Conceptually quite different. Here we go. They're gonna learn it so educate jihad is a holy struggle in defensive Islam, the concept requires that it be a defensive war, and it has to be to protect the face. So what jihad is yes. Okay. Jihadists defensive good. It's saves our offensive. Yes. Okay. Good good examples of a jihad that fits the classical definition would be. The Muslim kingdoms fighting against the crusades. They were defending themselves from Christian armies that were taking their land and slaughtering their people right and the Afghan mujahideen who were defending against the Soviet Union's, Faizan and occupation in the nineteen eighties. Watchmen relevant. There's going to be a shell on HBO. Oh, even though relevant but after the Soviet Union withdrew from withdrew from Afghanistan. Some of those fighters did not give up their jihad, and they switched from viewing it as being defending a Muslim kingdom or country from. Soviet armies to fighting against. Western influence in the urban Muslim world, which they began to view as a direct attack on Islam. Well, wasn't it? No people into the eighties people across the entire world were modernizing. And so a lot of people in the Middle East stopped wearing. Women wearing head coverings. Right. Nineteen seventy six or whatever that. Women's started to get rights and extremists figured out that that is anti Islam and even outside of the extremists. There has been a widespread anti-western backlash across the Middle East Jordan in the nineteen eighty s you wouldn't see very many head coverings. And now every woman has head coverings and long sleeves and by head coverings like faces enhancer the only things that are exposed for some and some places, but specifically that is the Norman Jordan it varies from country to country as to what you would expect to see there are, you know, Saudi Arabia, right slip for the is is about all your usually gonna get and it varies. So now, Al Qaeda viewed their their terrorist attacks as part of this jihad. Because they were in their view defending Islam from western threats trying to destroy Islam. Now a crusade is a Christian, holy war. The first crusade was theoretically supposed to defend pilgrimage routes in the Levant areas. Israel, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon. But when the armies arrived. They slaughtered. Muslims jews. Christians anybody Brown that was in the area and indiscriminately, slaughtered them. They began then begin to establish crusader, kingdoms and subjugate. Anybody who didn't follow the Roman church, so orthodox Christians weren't good enough. Muslims obviously were bad and they all suffered under that time period. This is followed up with three other crusades that ended with Muslim kingdoms eventually regaining control of the region, and the mostly French Latin kingdoms that had been established vanishing, but the crusades continued, and there was the Rican Kista this was the holy crusade to aid the Christian kingdoms of what is now Spain Portugal and driving out the Muslim emirate that was ruling most of the peninsula the same year, the Rican Kista was completed Columbus arrived in the Caribbean and those same Casetta wars continued their holy crusade crossing the ocean on a crusade to convert and conquer the heathens. They found in the new world and take their golden women. Radim pillage which. You know, just the age old rape appellate detail is oldest time. Oh, yeah. German crusaders, namely, the teutonic knights were sent to the east for these Slavic crusades NAT to be confused with tectonic plates. And this was to convert and conquer the heathen Slavs in the land between the holy Roman empire and Russia. This resulted in the establishment of crusader states, and eventually led to the Salish -ment of the kingdom of Prussia which ended up becoming the dominant power in Germany. Since then Protestants have taken the term, and they have used it to mean evangelism as an evangelistic crusade or campus crusade for Christ. That's just a the app. That's just a tagline camera crusade for the name of an organization. Right. But the D alliterate shin was just used the word because not because they mean to actually crusade. But because they mean, it sounds cool. They mean crusade in the modern Protestant. Let me phrase that the pre-september eleven Protestant view of crusade is evangelism. Meaning the same thing. Okay. And I do have to say that. I am glad that Christians have taken to water down the concept. But that hasn't been universal George W Bush publicly and repeatedly described the war on terror as a crusade. And the pickup I saw the sticker also had an Iraq war sticker, and it would appear that this soldier got the message loud and clear and so did a lot of Muslims. This ended up only being confirmed when Christian armies from the west invaded Iraq as part of this crusade. And sure Saddam Hussein was a bad guy needed to go. But this choice in rhetoric provided evidence to some of the provided evidence to some that the extremists who'd already started, the jihad or right, right? We validated their fears by invading, and even though these were predominantly secular countries with armies that weren't necessarily Christian. But then when you factor in the way evangelical have been taking over the military as well because our poor. Oh, man, it it. Yeah. I hear it's bad in some places. Like, the air force apparently is apparently really bad air force academy. Did you have any of that? No. But I mean, it'd be right. Yeah. But. You know, if you're you're surrounded by seamen, you don't really turn to rice. But it could be a good way of being like, oh, I got to go and take this break now for my worshiping time. Yeah. You know? So how I picked up cigarettes for two weeks. Before I got kicked out. Nobody goes into the army, especially in comes out without being addicted to nicotine. That's the only way you get a break. So after Saddam Hussein had been overthrown, Al Qaeda and Iraq formed to fight against the us and coalition troops as well as the government that was backed by these crusader armies is all part of jihad. And so when you put it like that almost sounds sensible from their perspective, it is sensible from our perspective. It was a bunch of people who didn't realize it. We were trying to help them. Find democracy. So what I don't understand is that let's see here. So in two thousand and one I was sixteen years old. And I saw through the bullshit clearly from day one. I realized that there was cultural misunderstanding here that was not going to get resolved that this is only going to get worse. It did it got prolonged, I doubted everything are you a government said because it all sounds way too skewed. It was why did everybody else fall for it as a general rule of thumb? Shit rhetoric like this like calling a terrorist attack a jihad? Yeah. Which al-qaeda called it a jihad, and then they made a terrorist attack that way. That created the perfect opportunity for not just conservatives who were ideologically already ready for something like that. But most moderates to go along raped out and two thousand one I mean after nine eleven people freaked out because they were like I'd never thought that the US could get attack attack like this. So it it freaked people out. I mean, I mean, I guess I could understand being freaked out. But the bullshit that continued for ten more years by the tenth anniversary of nine eleven. I was shocked at how much that rhetoric was still like being pumped do. I mean, I would say maybe that's also because people were like, well, we're in it don't want. We don't want to seem like wait a minute. Stay. Yup. Cantu. Now, we're just gonna power through this even though because the last were we were in also was a mistake. We weren't in. A war. Well, well, right and Vietnam. So that's a whole thing. Like it was being and then it was like mistake dying. That brings up another question. How is the people who grew up with Vietnam? Turn a blind eye to the same thing happening because of the terrorist attack because of the terrorist attack US soil was attacked for the first time since the Johnny on your. Okay. But mainland US that bomb. Sorry. I was just a story is just hilarious. Most people don't think of that. Because that was after the war. Or was there wondering it was like towards the end of the war. I don't remember. But generally people think of it there's most people ignore trivia and his rates into the us. That was intentionally to try to get the US to enter the Mexican civil war. Most people look at we don't wanna talk about Mexico. Now, do we say, we're? Either one could well, and if you have some Canadians, they successfully invaded and. Demanded the US and burn down our capital, why we have a White House some eight British colony and it was a British army with soldiers still areas. So I think that my reason I was not affected by the terrorist attack. All right US soil. You're already about as far left as possible. Yeah. The furthest extreme away and then geographically Alycia so far away. I wasn't affected because I didn't know anybody. And you hadn't been to those places. It hadn't been to those places. I knew it would affect it. A lot of people. But it didn't seem like it didn't seem on par with other atrocities are being committed elsewhere in the world. So to me, it just seemed like okay, guys. And that's the very over it. But it's a very atypical viewpoint. I'm atypical. The vast majority of people US was attacked head. No empathy. Yeah. Of all the things in my life. Why did why did that caused me to have no empathetic reaction when has? They were sick. I can't look at a dead squirrel in the wrong without almost crying. Well, but I would say you were sixteen year in high school, and you're like how is this affecting my daily life. It's not because I still have to get up, and I still have to go to high school, and I still have to deal with it will shit, and I just wanna kid through this shit. I saw some other kids who were using it as an excuse to get out of school. Fuck. Yeah. I got of school. Well, yeah, they were crying never. The apocalypse survival. Because they were actually concerned for people in New York. I thought they were crying. So they go home. Well, I would say that there might have been that they're mixed there that right? And then there might have been people. I I know that I really had a lot of anxiety about it. I was like what the fuck also though that summer. A school friend passed away. So there was a lot of emotions happening in my world. Also whole your whole country's changing. And you lose it was my senior year, and it was just. Yeah. True. And like in my case, I has your life. This is the end of the world. This is what training for that? There was some there was some of that. There was also the fact that I had two months before been on a at a tour of the Pentagon. Yeah. So I'd been one of the places if it was the other thing is I didn't believe anything until I heard about the Pentagon one. And I'd been on one of the flights that it being used right? And also had a brother in special forces who I figured was probably headed off to war. He wasn't. He didn't get to Afghantistan till two thousand seven he was busy with his normal area that he was operating in. And also as when you're a seventeen year old male, right? Somebody invades attacks the US I thought is going to. Get drafted. Yeah. Am I going to war? Right. I didn't. But right now, but the same kind of stuff all was happening in the Middle East when US forces invaded Iraq, everybody understood why the US invaded Afghanistan. Oh god. I remember that. And nobody viewed that as a crusade. No. That was retaliation. That was retaliation. That was perfectly understandable revenge. And then I remember the Iraq thing, and nobody really catching on for at least a couple of months where w you were NPR and a couple of the alternative, you know, leftists sites are saying, wait, a second, we invaded Iraq for what reason. Well, what was brought up was the fact that we just took out a man who we had given a lot of money to twenty years before and were apparently setting other people up to do the exact same thing that we had done twenty years before. So they were seeing history repeat itself. And there's also the fact that Saddam Hussein was actively fighting Islam extremists in his country. He was preventing anything from Qaeda in Iraq from. But it was also had that whole genocide. They will. Yes. Oh, if he does not great, Saddam was horrible. Go. Oh, okay. Okay. But in this situation. Yeah. Timing tech. Tuck replacing him with somebody better right at worse. And which is our specialty as in calling it a crusade, right? The proper response to a Muslim to crusade is jihad. And there are a lot of Christians who think the proper response to a jihad is a crusade. Well, if you look at history the crusade comes first, right? And it's you know, which one's worse. If you look at the traditional viewpoint it is traditionally Jihad's were nowhere near as bad as crusades in the modern usage Jihad's are more likely to result in terrorism. Aides or more like resulting invading countries, there's the blatant. I'm moving in with my army. You know? Pieces on the table kind of move motion. And then there's guerilla warfare which we've never done well with no. And that's what this mostly has been. And when you move at army into an area at expect. To face in other army, and then you get nothing guerrilla warfare. Yeah. That's that's gonna prolong. Everything's going to mess up your soldiers. Spayed? All right. They. That was depressing and. This'll be relevant for the first news story. Okay. Yeah. But I do want to remind you that we are supported by listeners just like you. And if you'd like to support the show, you can find out how at atheist nomads dot com slash donate. And I used to viewers like you wasn't actual corporation for viewers. Like you were like, they just like bankrolled all Phoebe S. Yeah. Wow. We do we do like getting. One time lump sum donations as well. We love that everything right now, we have a new interface that we're using this going to allow adding soundboard and doing some other really cool things. Erin. What what are you talking to you do have new microphone headphones? The headphones are much more comfortable than they are much more comfortable. I don't use. I concur which is bad Lawrence. We learned about the live program. I don't know why it was bad. Whatever it we. It was fine. We actually got some people who were like who watched jinx. And they really enjoyed our deviled egg and food talk. Tell you cook. Coming down the line. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we do want to thank Danielle for the microphone Inc. That is. Awesome and Vinnie universe remain buried her a year ago today. Oh, this is being recorded may the fourth. What a great day to get Marianne. Yeah. Yeah. Officiated their wedding. If somebody hitchhikers guide. Somebody. Yes. A solemn Oshii at it and Vinnie. Wanna thank you for the the new interface and soon to be some point Samborn what? So let's get into the news now, Erin. All right. Whatever why can't until you get assembled. Iraq war veteran with PTSD was on his way to a bible study when he saw Brown people. He thought might be Muslim in the Crosswalks. Yeah. Exactly. That's my sentiment to hitting the break. He sped up. Didn't they he's bed up and hit them as fast as he could? So angry in that moment. Agean seen gore law to do having a good day going to bible study you see Brown. People you go. Oh my God. I need to fucking kill these people. I don't feel like he probably didn't have a good day. And that's why he was like, you know, what I had a horrible shit day. You know, what to blame it on these people and just? Didn't put the brakes on. So he did not kill anyone. Eight people injured several of whom are still in the hospital. Broken ribs broken arms concussions. Those kinds of injuries. There were children who were injured. This was he hit kids. This was a family. My kneecap family of South Asian descent. Oh, no, they're probably Hindu. Yeah. Any religious both not Muslim, right? So he's facing eight counts of attempted murder. Good for something that he didn't even write. Oh, what the judge isn't lenient. Oh, that's that was complete mental health breakdown needs to be taken off or maybe he will have to go into. He can't stand his own trial. Maybe I'll have to go into that. Maybe we need a setup white some delight some comments where you know, if people get like enraged at the sight of people darker than a certain shade. We just send him off to go live in God in these compounds. We could even call them camps where we concentrate. Just for the bad people. That is just the bad ones. Just the baddies. I mean, they had to have done something. We can't just generalize. Pull people out now. But this is this is obviously somebody with severe mental health issues. And there is. He's a veteran who's. A victim of a shooting war. Yeah. You bright and a system that isn't taking care of him. Yeah. He is also a racist. Horrible asshole, those two things are separate issues. Connected, obviously. Right. But you need both to result in Ramseyer cars fast as possible new crowd of people because they're Brown and might be Muslim. Right. You know, what I saw huge backlash was this will was see if people don't have guns. They will still find a way to hurt people. If that man had had a gun. Dead about. So that that's a moot point just like John Ernest who is accused of firing eight rounds into a San Diego synagogue killing one injuring three after firing eight rounds. He fled the scene still had fifty rounds. He hadn't fired yet his face is. So punishable guy looked here. Well, he's young. He's actually I mean, I hate to say that Ernest. I really hate to say this. But he's not an ugly looking person. He is very put together. He. He I don't know. I mean to me when I looked at his picture. It was like look at this fucking privileged asshole. Oh, yeah. You looks like that. Yeah. Then. Ooh. But punch of but very punishable punishable face. Well, and then his family came out, and we're just like, Nope. This is a terrible. Now, this is Mark in history and our son. We don't want to be associated with that at all. And we deeply apologize and basically announcing that they want nothing to do his church too. Good church is doing the exact same thing. So. There was a seven page letter published two eight Chan under the name John t Ernest sketch should be shooting beer bonds. Not that's what I was like who looks like a frat guy and this seven page letter took credit for the shooting with a lot of antisemitic tropes. It included blood libel. Blaming Jews for killing Jesus. Good Ness Gracia lot of rambling about the white genocide conspiracy theory. And also taking credit for a fire at an Eskin Dido mosque that happened right after the Christ Church shooting. This is also a wasn't it on the weekend of her Serie or the month anniversary of another synagogue shooting or something like that? And I apologize for not knowing Danny. What's the last name was but the last day of Passover? So it was a week. Because in the other one wasn't that at the beginning of Passover knows among Passover is on the lunar calendar out the solar calendar. So what's it? I don't know. Okay. Me bad at religion stuff. And where it's goddamn. She's adorable. Really kill you just dragging the hat behind our shoes was hurrying it. Oh, hello. Okay. Student college student at athlete studying nursing, so yeah, looks exactly like that. And it's just apparently. News saying, yeah. Really funny. Nobody knew that. He was crazy. Okay. Nursing that actually segues perfectly to our next story. Segue as sixty five year old nursing Sunday, schoolteacher in Arkansas was convicted of murdering her husband, the story goes that she kept finding porn that. He was hiding. And he had a good he called his man cave. Do we know what kind of porn? No. But stuff that an old man's watching that you can that stash -able we're talking magazines, maybe some DVD's I'm just thinking like was it child pornography that would've been mentioned. I'm sure think I think so it's pretty standard porn, maybe she was just like old guard. Trae gives rocks off because his wife isn't doing it for him. Right. And they are pretty Christian right because she's essential schoolteacher. So she's like that is he would go out to his man cave to watch porn. And so she started feel like the devil was in the shed. So she details actually. So she filed for divorce the kid one and then with papers after he begged her to reconsider then just two months later. She found out that he subscribed to a porn channel on TV. So she went out to the shed shot him in the league. And then claims to have been trying to fire off a warning shot that missed hitting him in the head killing him instantly is well she was just set up. She was like I'm not getting off. So you should need are now because it's all the devil devil. You know, I I do feel terrible for her because. Yeah, she didn't mean to kill him. You think I don't think? So I'm going to guess she was in such a blind rage. She and know what she was doing. She probably just really fed up, and she's like fun. I will wound you and then just like for with the fear of God into them. Yeah. But literally sent him to what they would say. It's it's called. If you believe in that sort of thing. Yeah. If your partner partake, some sub things such as porn, and you're not happy with it. There are counselors available through that. Well, no because they are watching mornings you're a happy with find out. Why you're not happy with it? Yeah. Talk to your partner or go through with the divorce. Right. She had already filed. She was true the paper. She could have just refiled. Really want to? I bet she probably just you didn't really want a divorce. She was trying to scare him out of it. And this guy just like any semi healthy male couldn't absolutely and just. Well, there's there's less. He was like one of those people who is really into porn like way too much. There's a pretty there's a pretty solid stick out there that all men watch porn, pretty solid ban. Any man who claims not to watch porn is a liar. I wouldn't believe that do. But I do think is very teeny tiny little there's a few with active enough. Imagine nations to not needed digital assist. But that's not many, right? That's when you read the bible, he knew her over and over and over again. Really knew her. I mean like he knew her song of Solomon. So thinking about. The oh, there's something about milk and Honey in her bosom. Yeah. The one I don't the other be it tastes like, Honey. No. Representative Mike Simpson. Republican from Idaho. Second congressional district. Hold on. He addressed the conference in Boise last week where he talked about how climate change is real. And that actions need to be taken to address climate change and save the salmon. Because Sam is one of God's greatest creatures and his grandfather would take him up to the mountains of an Idaho. And he'd cease all these salmon and all the lakes of. So that means they're going to take the dams out. He wants to. That's what's happen. Yeah. That's he's pushing for it. He's religious calling out his party, which is overdue which is overdue. You can be a bad politician. Overall, instill do a few good things. I think is Pete more more of them me to call out. The party is that you cannot blindly follow this and nihilism and he's he's doing it. In Idaho, terms, when you wanna push conservatives in Idaho can push environmental issues in the name of conservation and not lose support of conservatives, and he wants to conserve fish because if you like fishing and a lot of people in Idaho, lake fishing, right? Right. You can't fish for fish that. Aren't there are a lot of people like fishing, I love fishing. And so he he wants to get rid of the dams. He wants to increase. Renewable energy want to see the red fish back at redfish lake. He wants to actually put to use some of the new technologies that are being developed for nuclear power the Idaho, National Laboratory. I know everybody in Idaho falls get behind and you also talked about the Pacific northwest National Laboratory, which is working on large scale battery storage. If you combine all three of those. There's actually a viable non-polluting power source that isn't dams bagel. Big Kohl's not gonna like any of that though. Nope. But big oil big coal are losing footing than Idaho. Ward more they just they just passed a law saying that if more than fifty percent of an area is because what they were doing they buying up. All this land, the middle rights, and then tell the other forty nine percent of landowners at well, we have the majority. So we can do whatever we want. Right. The shut that down. That illegal. Pissing off a lot of oil and gas people because they been by them all these mineral rights, right? But they were Bill. They're buying out like eagle, which is like a suburb. So the people out there were like, no, we don't want you fracking twenty feet away from our school or something. So the that's I mean, there's some steps but Justin's, right? It's it's all in the name of conservation. And you have to really do you want to be able to hunt deer? Do you wanna be able to you one hunter wolf? Well, you have to protect the wolf I right, which is but it works. He had a pretty obvious statement. That seems obvious to me here in Boise. I think it works. If you don't believe climate change is real go outside and look at it the monitor. Yeah. For sure win. It's over one hundred degrees. The entire month of August. That's not normal for here. But at least it didn't used to be right? Click psychology is one hundred ten through July and August now. Yeah. Now. Even ten years ago. I think the big thing too is the fires. The fires been outrageous lately, which is has to do a lot with climate change and suppression. And all that in all of these are big issues with a lot of different elements of play, right? If we want to save the fish, we need to fight climate change because part of the issues the dams another big issue for the salmon in the north west has been droughts causing water temperatures to be too high in the river, killing the fish. And if you look at the political interest in in, Idaho, it's agriculture I right or it's men's second. Yeah. Oil and gas might be third. Right. An agriculture doesn't want to have to keep dumping water. Yeah. Giving up water for the fish. So we need to do something to help the fish or share. So that's that's encouraging that is encouraging man. I guess I won't say, boo. But for the most part, he's a pretty. Awful person. He is I I would definitely say I disagree with them. At least seventy five percent of the time. Yeah. And that's actually a lot for most people. If you disagree with. By the time. We're not friends, and I don't like. Over half of half of the things that you say and stand by here kind of a dick. So rewire news did a amazing amazingly thorough. Coverage of some recent changes happening in Waterloo, Iowa. Where? Twenty some years ago, a Catholic hospital in town bought out the secular hospital. There was in town. They worked out an agreement and an arrangement where they'd have a condominium within the hospital, the be leftover that was not officially part of the hospital and not owned by the hospital where physicians could do things that the hospital. The Catholic hospital wasn't officially okay, we do things so C-section in the main room, and then we'll over to this sin room to do to Gatien's. Thin room. Do they open it up on Halloween? Funny fired our house or sin house, or whatever. So in December. They did a press release that they were going to stop doing Tupelo Gatien's invective. He's in the hospital. Of course, they did. And now without any announcement. What they've uncovered is that the Bishop found out, and according to recent changes from the end of last year to the. Ethical and religious directives that govern all Catholic Catholic hospitals if somebody becomes aware of quote immoral procedures that are being done. They need to report it to the local Bishop. Data tattletale this is despite the fact that it got to be a narc these health systems are all vertically integrated into massive multi state corporations that are actually all all directly report to the Vatican. Not to the local Bishop the local Bishop officially has no power. But this gives the local Bishop some ability to try to enforce doctrine and dogma when possible, ministers, and physicians aren't following it. So also while this was going on the private OB group that was doing all the labor and delivery and all the women's health stuff in the hospital. Right was purchased by the hospital. All but one doctor quit rather than go through the transition. Well, what are they gonna transition to nothing because they'll start their own group wrestle? No. I know. But I'm saying like you go from representing women's health to be a Catholic puppet. Right. That's all right. And especially when the bishops watching and they're forcing compliance when the Vatican. We'll find out find you. And especially since the illuminates they're gonna murder you in their body and aluminum. One of the doctors who'd been the head of of obstetrics for the hospital. She was one of the ones who resigned from her position with the OB group is like, thank you. But no, thank you. She was at the meeting before they were purchased where they were told by the Bishop and hospital president that they would be what the new rules are going to be no contraceptives. No sterilization procedures. I bet. She was pissed. She was. Yeah. She lives. Apparently like are. You are we seriously we're doing this in two thousand nineteen this is seriously happening right now. We're really doing this. We're doing this. Yeah. Really doing it sucks, and a how long do you think she was there too? Yeah. That she was going to retire. I mean, she's the head then she in there for a while. So I thought like she's not an expert or writing exactly. And so I bet you to they were I bet you there was some Redick euless people who were just what she's resigning. I cannot believe. No. They knew exactly everybody we want you out. So we're going to rules. I just want to know I just want to think of some bumbling person. Who would who's just like why would we want to leave? That's. The one person who stayed no. Based on what she told rewire news. I think if anybody asks she would have told them exactly it is bad medicine to make a woman who is high risk for having an additional pregnancy like somebody who's had multiple c sections to get pregnant again, especially within just a few years that is very dangerous, potentially life-threatening, and is very unethical. Somebody's going to be having getting a tubal ligation in the near future to close them up from one surgery, make them wait six weeks and do a second surgery. Right. That is bad medicine. Yeah. Of course. Well. Catholics. Don't care. That's not. If God will will help you out. Don't worry about it everybody. If you're not meant to have a kid then God will make it. So you don't have a kid. I mean. I mean that whole. So oh, well, if you were meant to live through the second surgery, then you'll live if not the you had that wasn't in the cards. So who the fuck cares? We'll pray about mall. See each other in heaven. Mercy one is the the organization this this hospital to part of it's this the mercy one Waterloo medical center, its own half by C H, I Catholic health initiatives, which apparently is changes name to come in at health and the other half owner is trinity. These are very large organizations that control a lot of hospitals around the country if way more power than they should obviously since this made the news both are watching this closely, and I'm going to guess all of the bishops around their hospitals are also watching closely. So it doesn't matter if you're in Pendleton, Oregon or Annapolis Maryland, this could affect you. Or Boise, Idaho. Was that one was better L approve that one for the sound rent rent? See? So Catholics are pushing these strangers, but it's not enough for some and a coalition of conservative Catholic. Clergy and academics have accused pope Francis. Academics of heresy citing what they call over overly liberal positions on topics like religious, diversity, homosexuality and communion for divorced Catholics. Like this is. So like, we think this guy is basically dirt less emptor. Then there's all these people who are like, no he needs to be way worse than that. You know, liberal, you know, of it's that whole people thought he was great because of how liberally was, but you, and I we see the long term effects of. Oh, yeah. Right. What he does. And how stock getting any better? Yeah. And it's just. I guess it makes you appreciate that. He is more quote, unquote liberal. But don't get fooled by that. Because nothing's changed. They're still hiding pedophile. We still have unequivocal amounts of wealth. That is not being, you know, given up they're still trying to take over healthcare in the United States. Yeah, they are continuing to discourage every way possible people with HIV in Africa from using condoms. It is. Yeah. That's just. Yeah. I mean, oh, there's so many bad things. There's yeah. Pedophilia. There's a non slick sex slaves and yet not conservative enough leading divorced people communion, though, that is just horrible. They should be coin to hill. And also letting people who men who have sex with consenting adult men have communion because nobody had in the Catholic church was conservatives don't have any Trump trouble. Pedophile priests continue taking oh, but let an openly gay man who's having sex with consenting adults out. Nope. Nope. That's too far too far. Well, I thought community was a personal thing. Like, if you're a true believer, you wouldn't be taking communion anyway. Right. It's because like a divorce person they know what to get a divorce that they're not supposed to take communion. So if you're not supposed to do speech like if you're not your nose do. But wait just don't do. They like, no, I'm reversion izing. My do a speech Bieber. They do. No for Catholics. You have to get an annulment from the from the. The vatican. Now, I know they do a speech of the sort of of communion to let you know that all Christians in good standing are eligible to take part. And if you aren't this'll be a curse upon you. It can get a blessing though, you can you can walk up and get a blessing. Just don't put that wafer and wine in your mouth. Now, I totally want to because he said because he said I couldn't I want it now. Yeah. Just spit spit. It out. What happens when you spit out comedian who what kind of curses that the double curse triple dog curse. I don't know. Well, do you think they can you imagine like having the communion of the priests you like piss and Jisr in the wind? Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then later knowing because he was a priest near like, oh my gosh. Yeah. I didn't get I didn't just get the blood of Christ. I got way more way more body than I expected. Oh. Well, that was a fun though to end on. Pakistan has been is still trying to get rid of polio. It's one of the few countries countries where folios still endemic and they've had to suspend their vaccine drive as several back seen workers have been killed in attacks. Because people don't believe in vaccines. They believe it is a western plot to Searle is they're women. Thank you CIA for using vaccines to to track down bin Laden. Yeah. That was well, I mean. Most greatest gaff. Is that the right word for that? Yep. Yep. He's screwed up vaccinations for a lot of people because he used it to track him to track down mom. Well, I mean, the US government has sterilized people and they have done that. But not with vaccines. Yeah. If there was a vaccine that could I would not be a secret. Country and somebody who's been known to do those kind of things comes in. And so here have shot it'll make you all better. I would be a little suspect to right, of course. I wouldn't want my kid to die from something. So I would do it anyway. But. Understand some people not doing that these satanic temple for final story is now a registered tax exempt church. My mom people. They can keep their book secret now. Which is right. It's that's bullshit. Suzy entire tax exempts. Yeah. Exactly. Bullshit for any point wasn't supposed to get this far. This show was supposed to end. But now, they're part. Now, they're part of it. We played chicken they play chicken with the government and the government just decided to keep on going. I mean good because then that just means that, you know, the part of it, but also bad because the show it's religion does like in high school. We wanted to p flag a pride clung and the principal said, no, I'd rather lose all funding for all extracurricular activities and let you have your pride club. So we called bull on him and said, okay. And then when parents found out that the football club was going to lose their money than they were like were hit. They said just let them have their. Yeah. Seven member pride club. We don't care. Don't you dare touch. The football team is if we don't beat scarves, you the sheer skirl this year than. It's stupid. But now we called his bluff, and he had to give us our club. Now athletic clubs at schools is also bullshit because that's the way to get around titled ten rules where you have to have an equal numbers of equal numbers of men's and women's teams. Right. So it's not an official team. But a club you can have clubs to get extra men's teams. Yeah. Well. Well, yes. I don't know what to say that volleyball. Yeah. Well, a lot of school. A lot of school and then a men's volleyball club. No, my school didn't have any men's volleyball or just not have any at all. No. I mean, they only had ladies volleyball. Aren't they all just clubs? Official shares. We had like a fish that. We had the football team. We had the gymnastics team. Oh, yes. So they can compete rate. Right. Yeah. You can go across state and could play Walla Walla had a actually I think it was an official my college unofficial men's volleyball team that would play against like university of Oregon Washington state club teams because they had men's football teams. They did not have men's volleyball teams. Walla Walla had a club hockey team that would play against actual official wool hockey teams. They also compete against each other that doesn't change anything. It's just a wave of skirting the rules cool by not. But anyway, so satanic temple. They are a church with all the legal rights and privileges of a church, you know, what's necks, the church of the flying spaghetti monster. Whatever. The whole point right? Let's to make it more. So outrageous that no religious person standby say, this is okay. And we blew past that well, the blue pass a lot of things here. So. Yeah. Well, at least now I can get the the coloring the satanic coloring book for Kylie on a tax deductible rate because that's donation to church. It would have been tax deductible for. Because it was a nonprofit before. Now, it's a church. So they the only thing that it changes actually having that satisfies a church and not just a not for profit non church entity. Is that clear she get to get special tax benefits? So Lucien Greaves will be able to get a parachute exemption for his housing. We're going to start doing it on in on that. If we could get set up as a church, let's not do that. No, not worth it. And you could you could be satanic something. Let's get it all the money. I just think it housing's outrageous. I would love to have a little help. They're just talk about the fact that I feel like my allergies are kicking in. And it's just getting worse and worse as we keep talking. Yeah. Okay. Feeling very great. So. Let's go ahead and move onto feedback. The first couple are about the YouTube livestream, not covering all of the comments that were left about the Whitestream. But just a few generally about it, not the specifics. So from Randy via YouTube ya got tied up with my son on Saturday. Y'all are the best. Congrats. Thank you, Randi. Thanks, randi. Watching those. Oh, you're saying. Saturday. So he watched Sunday. Oh, is that what that whole thing? Not live. Yeah. He commented all the way through so all days that Sunday was getting -cations that he was leaving comments. Okay. Don't tell me about any negative comments. I don't wanna know. They're wondering. Oh, good. We've got nice people who watch us. Yeah. We do then from jazz cross via YouTube missed the livestream dude homelessness, but darn glad I could watch here. And hi Randy. Oh, no. Oh, let's sad. That's really sad. Like where did you? What did you watch it a friend's house? I hope fronts house. You should be worried about the rachi to livestream. Obviously you do because you missed it. But yeah, I mean, thanks for watching it in. I hope it brightens your day, but Brenton many people's day because we were being ridiculous. And it was fun to see the progression of dust and get drunk. Yeah. It was fun. It was a good Tim, and I enjoyed it. And then we had a break in my break wasn't much of a break because I'm exhausted. From my vacation that happened. I got sick. And from stevia from. Yeah. And from Steve from Colorado via Email just listening to episode three hundred ninety tunes, and I thought dozens Egypt joke was really good. I'll please oh come on up. I know thought I'd pass along a joke. I heard why do giraffes have such long necks because their heads their head is so far away from their body. All right. I like that one. That's good. You all are awesome. I love the podcast keep up the hard work. And when I find actually able thank you. Feel like we're coming off a break where we're not feeling good. So we're not all jazzy. Yeah. Just han. We're trying though we need to mint juleps up in here. This time. I'm doing great. Yeah. Dusted. Unlike episode to ninety nine. Yeah. We were all kind of off. Yeah. I mean, we'll still let's start lose great this time. Yes. She was. I oh shoot. Now that you said it she wants to take your shirt off. We don't have any new patrons bun free. Thinker two one five did increases patronage by success laugh. Thank you. I mean every little bit counts. And we get did get the two donations the very nice supporting our upgrades. Thank you Danielle. And thank you from New York you and if you'd like to support the show you can go to atheist, I'm as dot com slash donate to find out all the ways how. Guess right at the end. This is perfect. And if you wanna leave us some feedback. Contacted atheist nomads dot com or. Speak by blink atheists dot com slash speak pipe. We'll also work if you wanna leave us audio feedback. Yeah. Or just record something on your phone or computer and Email to us that also works as well. Thank you. Learn thanks, Laura. If you're in Boise on the nineteenth of may edge at seven thirty. We're doing another open mic. Jinx Jenkins is going to be the featured comedian. So that's exciting. And then I'll just start a since it's me on June twenty sec can't oh shit on. Look at me. I'm not I'm not prepared twenty-second. Those a Saturday. I'm doing a backyard benefit for Pride Foundation, which is LGBTQ foundation to help those LGBTQ with like grants and scholarships. Nice to go to school. No. It's it's it's not like, I'm doing it. Right. Yep. Here I'm doing it down here away from it. I'm for the listeners at home Lawrence chastising me for not having a drink next to the microphone, but could potentially which I know is not because it's not next to the microphone. She is not having it today. I could tell you right now. No one's having it today. This is it, but the backyard benefit it does go to a good cause it's going to be a ten dollar ticket. It's going to be fun too. Because when you buy the ticket, then you get the address if you don't buy a ticket. Then you do not get the address it's really it's really in the backyard of somebody's house. It'll be fun and listeners remember not all those who wander our loss. Thank you for listening to another episode of atheists nomads, you can find show notes and contact information at eight Theus nomads dot com. Follow us on Twitter, ATS nomads and like us on Facebook at Facebook dot com slash eight use Nomex, please subscribe to the show tunes, Stitcher or your podcasts of choice. And while you're there feel free to leave us to review the music is courtesy of sturdy until next time. This has been atheists nomads.

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