17 Burst results for "Rukmini"

"rukmini" Discussed on The Daily

The Daily

03:24 min | 1 year ago

"rukmini" Discussed on The Daily

"This podcast is supported by CBS n the live streaming video news channel from CBS News Cbs N. is the original reporting in breaking news you trust from CBS News and it's always on we focus on facts not opinion. It's news for everyone. CBS is perfect for cord cutters because you can watch wherever you are across all streaming devices. Here's here's how you do it download the CBS News App any APP store and then start watching C. BSN right away for free. I'm Laura Anderson. I am one of the people that make the daily and I'm also one of the people who made a show called Caliphate. It's a show that follows community Kalmykia she reports on Isis. I can remember the first time I heard the interview Rukmini and our produce the animals had done with a former isis member. He confesses to things he does as part of the group's religious police if felt like such a rare interview when we had our doubts about the story he told us us we pulled on every level. We had to get to the bottom of it. We leaned on reporters with sources and national security agencies. We used the full muscle of the New York Times newsroom to get to the truth of his story. I can't think of another place. This story could come together and that is what you get. When you subscribe to The New York Times we are setting out to make stories that only the New York Times can tell so if you want want to support our efforts to keep bringing shows like the view. Please subscribe to the New York Times and thank you so Peter. I guess the question here is why why hire a national security adviser who is so fundamentally different from you on the issue of national security well. It's a great question what president trump liked liked about John Bolton joining me right now former. US Ambassador to the UN Ambassador John Bolton Ambassador. I was seeing on Fox News and very aggressively articulating conservative point of view people talk about closing this border for a long time. I was in the Reagan administration. We passed the nineteen eighty-six Immigration Reform and Control Act which was closed the borders. They thought that Bolton was kind of like minded huge realistic version of political figure. They do share some things. It's idea of America first does play into John Bolton's philosophy as well. He describes himself as an American nationalist. He's not all that thrilled with allies. Neither is president trump he doesn't really believe in the UN or allies international organizations and think that they're very effective or or that the United States should be subordinating itself to them. I'm neither does president trump. What he missed was that bones view is very different than his own view. Then president trump's view on a lot of these big issues on north career where president trump wanted negotiate with Kim Jong UN and John Bolton thought that was probably unwise. There's not a lot of time to waste here talking to the North Koreans. This is a waste of time on Iran. How long would it take for Iran to get a deliverable nuclear weapon roughly one day after North Korea gets where just a couple of months ago John Bolton teed up a retaliatory strike for the downing of an American surveillance drone right and the president hold it back at the last minute right on Russia John Bolton much much tougher much more skeptical of Ladimir Putin's Russia than the president would never invite them back into the g. Seven the way the president has talked about and finally of of course these last few days. We see highlighted in this very big dramatic way. There's no blind trust in the Taliban in this administration. That's for sure they idea of negotiating with the Taliban.

John Bolton president CBS trump The New York Times CBS News UN Laura Anderson Taliban United States isis Fox News Kalmykia Russia Reagan administration Iran North Korea Rukmini
"rukmini" Discussed on Left, Right & Center

Left, Right & Center

04:01 min | 1 year ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Left, Right & Center

"And we've been acting for the last twenty five years as if nothing had changed since nineteen Ninety-one. And neither of those things are the case we have resurgent terrorism. We have a resurgent Russia. We have research in China. We have allies who have less military capacity than they did. But yet we have the same commitments. And we need to ask question. Do we want to have those commitments? If we do we need to up our military force dramatically, we need to increase defense spending across the board. So that we can afford these deployments and afford the state's estate military. We need to meet our international commitments. And if we don't want to pay for it, we need to start rationalizing our commitments to our capacity. We've avoided that discussion, and I hope that Madison's resignation smarts that discussion. So we either upsize our military to meet our commitments or we downsize commitments to meet our military rich see that conversation emerging because going back to something Liz said tr. Has been sort of in a Radic president on foreign policy. But is it Radic nece tens in the direction of wanting to decrease our commitments abroad, he wants to he wants to withdraw from things. It's less clear that he's interested in starting wars or or in invading things. And certainly we went through a period where I think we engaged in some interventions that were mistake, but I don't see a theory here about what u s commitments ought to be the president just seems to dislike US commitments. Yes. Now, I take Henry's point that these assumptions are worth reexamining, and they're worth asking questions about and trying to forge something new, and, you know, the power of Trump is he intuited that this old arrangement is due for a freshening, but he doesn't have any answer a himself. And of course, he don't want to rip anything up without knowing what is going to replace it one. I made the analogy to Obama's decision to to pull out of the residual for set of Iraq. And I do think it's interesting how these two administrations that are supposed to be starkly opposed and hate each other had. Similar instinct, especially in the Middle East. And I think it's because both Barack Obama and Donald Trump arose in opposition to the Iraq war and are overly ambitious campaigns in the Middle East. So there was something very similar in their DNA on these questions, although they they can't stand each other in and opposes complete opposites. I I wanna talk a little more specifically about what's likely to happen next in Syria. And and to discuss that I want to bring in Rukmini Cala Makki who covers ISIS for the New York Times rook Meany. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. My pleasure for being. So can we talk a little bit about we have a couple thousand troops on the ground in eastern Syria, which we basically as part of the efforts to drive ISIS out of northern Iraq and eastern Syria. We ended up with this troop commitment there. What is likely to happen on the ground? If we remove those forces understand is that right now in northern Syria. We have no more than two thousand American troops. That's a very small number. If you think that for the engagements in Iraq and in Afghanistan, and each of those places we had over a hundred thousand troops part of the Obama doctrine was that our troops should be in a support role. Meaning they are not the ones that are actually doing the heavy lifting of the fighting. They are there providing air support, they're providing logistical assistance. They're they're in an advisory role. They're not the ones that are done on the front lines. It's the Kurds are allies who are doing. So when I was last with the curse which was a couple of years ago. And I was telling them what was clear is that our ally could not move an inch without this particular support from from the US, they they literally would would be out of position with ipad on that. I would be the positions of ISIS fighters. They would call it an airstrike by calling the coalition the coalition would bombed that location and only after it was bombed could the Kurds advance the fear right now is that the Kurds are not only not going to be able to hold the. Territory that they won with with great loss of lives and treasure. But that they're going to be pushed back from this area. And that is basically just going to go to have a safe haven..

president Iraq Syria Obama Middle East Donald Trump Madison China US Russia Radic Rukmini Cala Makki New York Times rook Meany Henry Liz Afghanistan
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

02:35 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"Yeah, I, it's a David and Goliath, YoM argument, and the other thing is they're still here. I, they still hold just in Iraq and Syria. They clue. They hold between nine hundred thousand square miles of territory which is four more than they held in. In twenty eleven two thousand twelve when American forces were drawing down when they would consider defeated the last time around and and their presence is growing in places like Afghanistan, Nizhny, air, Libya, et cetera. So I think that there's going to be a period of dormancy and then something's going to happen. The most notable thing stuck with me the most from yellow podcast. I don't remember if you're saying or you're quoting someone on this that we should fear ISIS ability to govern? Yes, out there. Fear to conquer some sometimes man in that, yes. This is from an ISIS, a person who's written a book about ISIS, and he said, we should be more afraid of ISIS capacity to govern then of their fighters, which I read as the blueprint is out there now and the blueprint of how to drive in with some fighters and take town always existed. It's right. The blueprint of setting up a government bureaucracy is the pick up the trash. Yes, you would think that a municipality would be able to to figure out how to do that. But in a place like Mozell deer, rocky government completely dropped the ball and the fact that ISIS could come in and ensure that the streets were cleaner than they were before. That's a big deal, not to people. And right now as we get further and further from the liberation and as whole stretches of Iraq and Syria remain in ruins. People start to look back with the beginning of nostalgia for what they remember of of terrorist rule. Obviously, the minority of people sure by amac minority to begin with, they were minority to begin with, but this is a group that has studied people's grievances and they figured out a couple of things that one them points with people, and that is the thing that I think is most dangerous about them. So where does that leave you? I mean, I'm working full health. I've I'm heading to Syria and Iraq. Soon have a couple of stories that I wanna pump out. I have a couple of ideas to do. Africa about ISIS related themes there. Yeah, I just keep going right. Will you come back and talk about these experiences so long, you know, chapter three. Sure, absolutely booked. Now it's total pleasure. Thanks for listening to long forum. Thanks to my guest Rupe mini column Ocoee. Repeat guest. Thanks to my co

ISIS Iraq Syria David Nizhny Goliath Afghanistan Libya Africa nine hundred thousand square m
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

04:17 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"He's Iraqi but raised in in Britain. He created the website. That to me is sort of the model for this based on the ISIS documents that he himself recovered through sources in Iraq and Syria, and he has, I think about nine hundred nine hundred specimens as he calls them. He was one of the people who. Was one of our fact checkers and who vetted these documents for us. And his archive has helped me so much. You know, like I, whenever I'm researching ISIS, that's one of the first places I go to see. Is there any document that he has that links to this particular issue? My archive is fifteen thousand pages, so it's very big and that is my dream is to share this with others. I think that there's so much more to be written beyond what I have been able to do. You mentioned the book so I can see the your early projecting this forward, but is there ever a time you can imagine leaving the story behind the life mission for my God? Oh, my God. Yeah. A couple of I think it was in the fall of twenty sixteen. We were preparing like, you know, my my desk was preparing sort of goals for the next year. And my editor came to me and said, do you think that you would like to look at far right? Extremism, white nationalism. And I think at that point, he was thinking of us. The arabic. I think he was thinking about what's happening in Hungary or places like that. And and at that point in time, I mean, it was just the beginning of the operation against Mozell. It had just started and I was like, are you kidding? The look? I'm drowning. I can't possibly do anything else. And now I'm wondering if maybe that's if that's a natural place to sort of try to stretch into, I don't know. We'll see why. I mean I, it's interesting you brought that up because at the period of time we last talk. People were finally starting to take ISIS seriously saying is is a bigger threat than al-qaeda. Right. And there was a little bit of a like mice space, Facebook errative. That's right. That's right. That's right. And I wonder what's coming next, and I won't ask you to predict it. But I'm wondering if you could for reporters. They're never been anything like ISIS. There's no playbook for covering a group like ISIS. If you've learned anything about being thrust into a geopolitical situation that's truly new. It's Ryan to explain it to people. I mean, my major takeaway that I have come away within this work is go to the enemy, talk to the enemy. I think that the way that al-qaeda an ISIS is typically covered is by reporters who just between officials in Washington, the best sometimes Baotou officials in Washington and maybe Perez and lent, right? Like, okay, let's let's talk to a couple of other coalition partners. That's only one side, you know of the story. And I have learned so much by seeking out there documents, reading the propaganda very carefully because it's interesting. They're propagandists when they're trying to communicate something. What are they trying to communicate? What are the themes that they keep on on hitting on, and then if you can speaking to them themselves and so. I think what's helped me in this particular beat is, and I've had the since I was, I think a child, I'll talk to anyone a literally talk to anyone. And I think that because I mean ISIS in the end, they're the ultimate boogeyman. And so I think a lot of reporters just try from that. You know that that even the act of speaking to them is somehow showing them too much medi, you know, and and therefore we might be legitimizing them or giving them importance in the end their source, right, and the end, they're just a source. If this was the Nazi era, I would love to be able to go to speak to Nazis and sit there with, you know that guard and ask him, why did you do what you did and try to hear how that person justifies it? Having done this in a newspaper yet and not having done this an audio when you ask the person that and you play back there? Yeah, words yet obeyed. I'm I'm wondering how the different formats and different ways of presenting these people affect how people perceive them because I felt very different..

ISIS al-qaeda Washington Facebook Britain Iraq Hungary Syria editor Mozell Ryan Baotou Perez
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

04:08 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"I, I literally caught them doing this where they are showing pictures of a tragedy that happened in India. I think in the nineteen eighties is called the boo Paul gas tragedy to look up the date. I think it was a nineteen eighty. It was a gas leak. Let ended up loud of gas in Paul, India from a factory that ended up killing dozens of people in carbide. I think with you. God, you're good. You're really good. I didn't remember that. There's a famous picture that is taken by a Taga for name public or Tulum you. I happen to know who took it because I know I I had once met Pablo, and it's a picture of a little boy being laid to rest in the ground. He's Muslim and you know, he's Muslim because of the type of burial that is happening. And all of the tones are sort of set Pia Brown because of the earth. It's his body except his eyes, which have this eerie lake gray color to them. And the pupils are dilated to like the size of, you know, they look like big marbles. I caught them in their telegram channels, passing around this picture of something that happened in the nineteen eighties and basically a factory disaster in India. As an example of children killed in American airstrikes. That's what they do. They take images of things that happened on one part of the world, and everything is this is a Muslim child that has been killed by an American bomb. This is a Muslim woman. That has been raped by an American soldier. This it's fake news. It's truly fake news and that is what they use to learn. People like say, who sit there and cry in front of the computers at the images that they're seeing from this part of the world and who feel a desire to help and who are then channelled into, oh, you wanna help come. Here we are. We are the soldiers of God. We are the only ones who are truly fighting this fight. That's where the radicalization happens. It's not from a page one story in the New York Times. Because if you actually read that story, the portrayal of the violence is not positive, right? The violence of that happened in Paris is a no way described as justified or good or whatever. It's just the opposite. Right. Do you think to push back slightly against that notion? I think that someone within ISIS, I don't know at all of their motivations are like ultimately, but would say for the price of. A gun van and a couple of human lives. You can get advertisement worth millions of dollars on the front page of all these world newspapers. And is there an element of all publicity is good publicity? I thought when we first talked that this was ISIS is central goal. Like the caliphate stuff was like a side pot at that time. I thought their goal is to like. Get to know the name ISIS and stay on the front pages long. It almost obscured the actual goals that you describe in caliphate. Tell me about like how those two things have been weighed over time for you is regarding their goals? I think that their goals have always been twofold. One, it's to create this is law mic utopian, which is a territory. It's a piece of real estate, and the other is to destroy the west and to destroy the west in a number of ways through attacks on our homeland by attacking gas installations. Run by American companies in Africa, through hacking through a misinformation campaign and the two have always coexisted. If you look back even to the earliest days of sarcomas, Al Qaeda in Iraq. Very early on. He started carrying out attacks in Jordan against American targets. So people were under the impression that al-qaeda and Iraq. Oh, they're just local regional. They just have some sort of local grievance JV team JV team, you know? Yeah. Why are they going to Jordan to try to kill the American ambassador y? You know, Jordan. Not not a rock. Why are the hitting the Holiday Inn and other, you know, American chain hotels in Jordan. I mean you the way that looming tower describes it was the goal was always to draw the west into a confrontation and that too, but the ISIS wrinkle that's like maybe the hardest to wrap your head around American.

India ISIS Jordan JV Iraq Holiday Inn Taga Pia Brown New York Times lake gray Pablo Africa al-qaeda Paris
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

03:42 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"This is the department that least out fields for rent. To farmers. He was the same dude that did it in the Iraqi government time. He does it under a new title under ISIS time, and now he's back to for the Iraqi government again, no change. You know, the only difference is that his letterhead was different. Right? And it doesn't sound like much, but ISIS built it state on the back of the one that was there before. So they didn't start from zero, and it doesn't sound like much until you think back to what you was forces did when we invaded Iraq. And the debate of occasion order that was passed, which basically gut it the state of Saddam Hussein in an effort to get rid of the Baathist state, the state of Iraq was gutted and that in effect, created the vacuum out of which is is, can you describe this very specific moment? And it's where the moment, if there's a fork in history, this is the fork, and I think it's I'm also interested in like what it's like as journalists we have been covering for longtime. I'm sorry. And you say like this, you're right. Here. This is where all came down to was. They probably could have dug in their heels, not done operations outside of the area, and I'm not saying like they would be like members of the UN, but potentially people were just going to put up with them, and there wasn't a lot of money and firepower to unseat them. And without that big push from the west, that's potentially ISIS could still be in Mozell and that big decision is to do this. I'm tying the snakes, a hell tailed heads at tale here to do these attacks in the west, which is wins. You picked up the story. That's right. I think that the story I mean That was. was four. I was in Mali doing okay, but, but this time we talked the last time we talked. Exactly. That's true. I think there's a truth in it. It's a little bit more than that. It's the killing of the western hostages, which immediately you know, got attention. It's the takeover of the territory and the enslavement of the as it is. But I think you're right. We were in a moment in history where the Obama administration had just drawn down American troops in Iraq. That was a campaign promise. He had made to get us out of these two wars, right? And there it was. American troops had mostly left on your left Iraq one-tonne amo-. Right, exactly. And so there was an enormous reluctance to get re-involved in this conflict and if it hadn't been so bad, and if there wasn't a direct tie to the West's interests, namely through the Paris attacks, the Brussels attacks, and so on. I don't know that they would have stayed there forever, but I think it would have taken longer because it really was a question of moving heaven and earth to get the Iraqi army to collaborate with the Kurds, the rebels in the north of Siri to get all of these moving pieces to agree and to basically go in and flush out ISIS. It was. It took a lot of diplomacy and work for the coalition to make that happen. I think you're right to say that those beddings may were the beginning of that story. Yeah, and it's not really the savagery. It's the theater of savage that got people's attention. This right entertainment is ISIS as entertained yet. Do you think that like this was an internal discussion, the discussion we're having right now about this now, do you think it was ever debated high wonder because these documents are like low level this higher level history about, like decided what they were gonna do? We, I haven't found those document. Fiat I hope to. Yeah. Do you have a do you feed them where those are?.

Iraq ISIS Iraqi government Saddam Hussein Iraqi army UN Fiat Mali Obama administration Mozell savage Siri Paris Brussels one-tonne
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

03:31 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"They've been actively hunted, you know where they are on a kill list where people are looking to do them harm. And so they've become increasingly, you know, good at this particular tradecraft of hiding look at Baghdadi from the sources. I'm speaking to the last time that the US government had even an inkling of where he might be was twenty fifteen d most wanted man in the world. We have no idea where he is. You're right theories rumors, you know, Elvis, sightings aside. We have no idea where he's at. I was surprised. I admit that I totally thought caliphate would be something totally different. I thought my favorite piece of nonfiction about terror in book form is looming. Tommy to me to a Larry, right? And I had dinner with him just a couple of weeks. Cheers to him. And I agree. I was like, oh, caliphate will probably be the looming tower for ISIS. In fact, we started out my team was reading looming tower. So Andy was reading looming tower this, you know, we, that is in a way a model, but in audio, you also have to have voices and characters will also just what you just said Dadis. Yeah, we don't even know where he is. How can we tell us about? You know, I expected you to tell the story of ISIS through ISIS as leaders. I sat through its foot soldier. I see, I say, and what ultimately, the impression I got left with is the you did tell the story of ISIS through its leaders, but through the actions of its leaders, which were to create a bureaucracy under which. Terror was normalized was systematized expense reports were trying to flee cataloged and that is their work like on some trickle down level. Those expense reports are because of Baghdadi in the leadership of and they built. That's true. That's one way to look at it. Yeah. I mean, you're looking at the blueprint of what they built. Yes, and it's manning, I hate to say it, but it's pretty intricate and involve blueprint. Yeah. I mean, where did they? How do you learn how to start the bureaucracy of a sharia government? It's like I, I can understand how people get together and plot to blow up a building. I can't understand how they come up with a tax system. That's right. So this is the thing that I learned on my multiple trips to Mozell and I learned this from the documents. I found an indocumented I was able to see names and I was able to track down some of those people who were named in these records. What ISIS did was the exact opposite of what the US did when we went into Iraq. So they take over Mozell. Of course, as soon as they take over an area and they are Sunni extremist group Christians, yesterday's, she us have all fled. So you have a mono society of fellow Sunnis. But among that society, what they dented is they used the loudspeakers that were mounted a mosques to announce to everybody civil servants specifically to go back to work. And so basically they did not got the civil administration that was there. They then came and in each ministry, they, they collapsed the ministries. They got rid of a few in most of them. They got rid of a couple of departments that had nothing that were in conflict with their with their ideology, but they left the skeleton of the Iraqi state there and told those employees that they had to go to work and to keep working and to keep it running. And then on top of that, they put their sharia flavor. And so for example, in ISIS ministry of agriculture, the guy who was the head of the land department..

Baghdadi ISIS ministry of agriculture US Larry Mozell Dadis Elvis Tommy Andy manning Iraq
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

03:22 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"He had a sex slave. He bought us x. Ray if he raped. Yeah, you're able to like learn all the things that you maybe we'll never know about this Canadian. That's right. What like we can't investigate every victim. That's right. Sorry. And that what's right, like where does this leave us? Where are we in history with this stuff? Now, do you like what will you do this documents now? Now. So so these documents for me are the skeleton of my understanding of the terrorist group. Only a portion of them have been translated. So I'm working with a team. We haven't announced it yet, but a major university is going to be taking over the scans and they're going to create a state of the art database where researchers from all of the world and were victims from all over the world can go and see the very documents that we found and they're going to be available in Arabic and English. So that's a project that's in the making on who's Asia at some point something you think of the stories of Nazis that are caught when they're ninety years old, you know, they're still it's still have. It's still happening and it's still happening at the very end. We're at the very end of that last a few out there, but yeah, yeah, exactly. And he knows he knows how he went in my theory is we know he didn't use his Canadian passport. We knew he'd in uses Pakistani password. So he used a third passport. He doesn't have any other nationality. Eighty. So he either used a fake passport, we investigated this is not hard and Pakistan to get them or Hughes the passport of somebody else that he knows a relative, a cousin, God knows he knows what that document is that got him in and he's holding that close to his vest. These killings that he describes. Yes. He says he was wearing a face mask which is typical of how ISIS executioners dress, but perhaps some day videos going to come out, right? A lot of people had cellphones iphones and were filming these horrific things. This was always my premise about the Iraq and Afghanistan war was that there was going to be a boom, yeah, and a verite archival documentaries after them because everyone has a smartphone with a camera. The twist here that I didn't foresee was facial masking. That's right, right. I didn't. I see that a bunch of those people in the videos would be have black masks on which makes the video basically worthless. Civilians and it shows it shows ISIS forethought that they, they have this very strict system of codenames known gares, right? Everybody who comes into ISIS is called by their known Aguirre's and what I learned researching this is that they often don't know each other's role. Nate and that's on purpose because if whose f. gets picked up all he can tell me as the guy he was hanging out with was up to law, which is a made up name and maybe that he's Australian. Yup. What do you do with that? Doesn't help you at all right. Kind of sucks for the people who are from the countries with only a few fighters because you are like, if you're if you're the fin. Slovenian say, hey, there's only a couple of guys, all Abdul of Luxembourg. You don't like you don't want to be cutting that situation, but yeah. And you think that was forethought like, oh, yeah, that's not just traditional garment, ding downtown. Now, I think I, I mean, ISIS, of course, is made on a rock. They've been there since two thousand three. It's fighting in Iraq. I mean, they've had a decadent half weird..

Iraq Aguirre Ray Hughes Nate Asia Pakistan Afghanistan ninety years
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

04:11 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"What about their families? Do they not have a right to know what happened? But we wrestled with it. I mean, we wrestled and wrestled and wrestled with it. And in the end, I had misunderstood the Canadian legal system which as it turns out his very different from or own, I think in America he would now be in jail in Canada, a confession, especially one that he then recant because as soon as the proverbial stuff hit the fan CBC. The Canadian broadcaster went and found him, and he said, no, I made up the killings of meet up the killings, but everything else Israel, which was also surprising because I expected him would he had threatened to do is the same eight up the whole thing. And he and he instead chose. He instead chose this very precarious middle path which is know joined ISIS, and I just happened to describe these killing so well in so much detail, but the killings are not real right. The killings are probably the most detailed part of the tape. Exactly everything else. I'm kinda like maybe you saw like a, you've been talking to a guy or you have his journal or something that you're saying that you're him exactly. Killings were like exactly. This is a lot of Utah, and they're not even flattering killings there. Killings of older people, and he's describing what it's like to kill a person who sold her than you, which is not something I would make up. 'cause I've never thought about killing someone of any age. Do you think he was just confused like as you're over this year and a half. Were you interrogating what his motives for all these things were? Well, a big one is what is his motive for speaking to me. Yes, that was a big one and I have a working theory, but I I might be completely wrong contrite. The working theory I have is that we got him. I, we got to him crucially before law enforcement, and we had gotten to him long enough after he had left. So we believe he left sometime in two thousand fifteen, and we're talking to him November twenty sixteen and he had had a long enough time to think about everything. And I think I think he felt remorse and I think he wanted to unload. The interesting thing that we never revealed on caliphate is he has confessed to those murderers and one more to another person. I'm not gonna say who look to another a non journalist, credible person where I think he was just trying to trying to have some sort of informal therapy, right? This is the you. Hear about serial killers and murderers in general. Like generally it's like you actually can get away with murder if you just like, right, shut up for the rest of your life. Right? But that there is a natural human urge right to at least dance around talking about these experiences. So I think that was one motivation with the second motivation is he didn't wanna get caught. Right? And so and he still doesn't want to get caught. And so he he wanted to sort of unload, but he wants to stay free. And I think in like, if I did it right, you know, right. And and Aaron, I mean, let me just caveat by saying and I could be completely wrong journey. He could've made up the whole thing and we have left that possibility open. You know, in our podcast, he say, I brought up the idea of like someone else's journal write that could be someone else's journal had all of those all of those learners and and the remorse and the feelings that that person had. That's committing those mirth. Right. What was. It's so hard to think go back to the scene where he talks about whipping people. These are so he's a member of the his bud this is is, is religious police. His job is to patrol the streets looking for violations of sharia law, including things like smoking, drinking, women, being improperly dressed. And once those people are arrested and convicted of those crimes, it was his job to punish them typically through floggings through whippings that with a wire that has that has metallic tips on it that detail. I had spoken to victims on the other side of that. I had spoken to an older woman who live near Mozell and ISIS had progressively restricted women's dress codes. So initially it was you just have to be failed..

Aaron ISIS America Israel Utah Canada Mozell murder
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

04:09 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"That's really nothing compared to American forces who are constantly being threatened by this group or politicians, or you know, a whole host of other people who are far more important targets of this group than I I, this is probably a stupid question. Why does ISIS want to kill you? I feel like you're, you've given them in some ways, the fairest shake they were going to get to at least represent themselves as they represent themselves. I would imagine that the person who. Replaced you at the New York Times should a calamity occurred. You would be less interested in depth. That's what they're doing. That's right. And is it because you're actually good at like really listening to them? Is that the problem? So the very first time after that interaction with law enforcement, I tried to go back through my social media presence. What I had just published a try to figure out what is it that had set them off. Not that I would do anything necessarily differently, but I was just curious galas and what it was is I had published a story about the rapes. We called it the theology of rape, right? And it was the first story. There have been many stories Don about the fact that yesterday women were being raped, but it was the first one that showed in detail how they were using religion to justify the horrible acts that they were doing. And this is referred to in caliphate also what you described. Appleton praying, examines ribs. Exactly and funnily enough that really set them off and with. Set them off is not. I mean, they own the fact that they have kidnapped the as it is and taken them as sex slaves. What set them off was the word rape. So they were messaging me at this. Some, some of them were talking to me at this point and you know, very angrily were saying to me how dare you say this. This is this is religiously justified. Here is the death. Were it says that it's okay and I'm like, yeah, this what my source that is had, no, no, no, you called it rape. I'm like, what would you like me to call it? It's sex with a slave. The definition of rape is when you have sex with somebody against their will right. And they just they could not see that. It was the fact that I was using a negative word to describe what they in their warped point of view thought was some sort of religious act that really likes them. So once I realized that I just realized there's really nothing I can do. I mean, this is they're completely rational. You know, of course we're gonna use the word rape in describing what has happened to the girls and women. But I think it's an interesting example of the concerns of a terror group. Let's buried different, like even in the case of, ah, booze who's who's Eva the Canadian. He when you really get to the root of why he was lying to you, it's because he wants to be recognized as a like, oh, gee, I generation ISIS, do not a bandwagon jumper. Not like these guys came over here to the party starring. That's right. And without years of experience? Yeah, I wouldn't. I could never conceive of that outcome as to be why a person was lying that they wouldn't lie and say, I wasn't an ISIS for se, like lions like, oh, I've always been. Well, there's another wrinkle to why Jose. So what we know for sure as we know for sure. He lied to us about the time line. He tried to make it look like he had gone and joined ISIS in early twenty fourteen before the declaration of the caliphate the California's declared in June July of two thousand fourteen. And there's actually a good practical reason why he would wanna do that. ISIS doesn't become the group that we know it to be until I would say the beheading of James Foley, which is August September of twenty fourteen and the killing of the other hostages. That was the moment when I think that ISIS does kind of blew onto people's TV screens and on on the front page of newspapers, and people realized, oh my God, there's this horrific group. He thought that by saying that he had been there before the declaration of the caliphate that he could pass himself off as an aid worker as this idealist who had just gone there to fight the crimes of the Assad regime, which doesn't sound so bad right up..

ISIS rape Appleton Jose James Foley New York Times Don California Assad
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

04:04 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"He was one of their money men, and these were this was his accounting for the expense report that he was writing his bosses of his expenditures and of the salaries paid. There's a giddiness to your voice as you're like going into this place like. I'm, I'm a collector by nature records are my biggest weakness, but I come from a family of collectors, and if it wasn't that I'd be probably collecting something else and I totally understand like the hunt for something that you have wanted for a long time and that you think is valuable and important. Right. And finally getting it, I imagined that that's like a weird slightly conflicted feeling for you like, yeah, very conflicted because of course, I mean, when we were in western Mozell we are also walking through the streets of an ancient city of a historic city that was completely destroyed as a result of this war. And of course, I'm there as a reporter and I'm focusing on that. And I remember at one point I turned around and looked at hawk who's my translator now, my friend and he was tearing up, you know, he was close to weeping after seeing what had happened to the old city of Mozell. But the reason that this is so important is this is really the closest. That I, as a western journalist can get to understanding ISIS interviews are great, but in interviews are always wondering, like, is the person playing near the, they're presenting a version of themselves. These records where you see a letter between an ISIS Amir and his deputy Amir discussing the fact that we'd prices in the territory they control are spiking and trying to come up with a policy because they're worried that the spiralling price of wheat might cause a rebellion among the civilians that they have to try to keep a lid on. It really feels like you're there. You know, like you're seeing something authentic about this deeply secret of group, and I don't think it gets better than that. I that weird collector thing and may like when my my, my grandmother and my father died the same year couple years ago. And so in short order, I inherited a Nazi dagger what? Okay. It was my grandfather's who. He had fought in France during the second World War. Okay. And the rest of my family wanted to go bury it woods house. Like it's an I mean, like, you know, I want to show this to my key thing that's fan. So I kind of made like a see I. I was like, that's ridiculous. Like we can't destroy history like me the Nazi. That's right. That's right. I kind of like I felt very clear about it when I was emailing. Yeah, and then the Nazi dagger arrived on my mother's house. And then I was like, I'm not sure I want this Nazi dagger in in my house Yeovil. Right. Interesting. They did have some sort of insignia that clearly marked it as an swastika on it was like a ceremonial. It was like a kindergarten officers dagger. That's right. And I somehow thought that the the texture of real history when meaningful. And so it's much more horrify hung in person. I say that, oh, for you like, do still have that briefcase as it in your house. So what we decided to do is after we. Reported the stories that we reported the documents that I had were sent to a high end scanner there. Most of them are still there and the originals are going to be returned to the Iraqi government on the other standing that these documents could be useful in prosecuting ISIS members in their territory. So the originals are no longer with me, but regarding the awfulness of it, I totally get where you're coming from, and I had that conflicted feeling about ISIS paraphernalia like the ISIS flag in Mozell. I was able to find this big medallion. That was basically an enormous sticker. One was actually on the wall, but one was still in its packaging on the floor, and it's just the ISIS flag but made as a sticker, you know. And that's not a document per se, right?.

ISIS Amir Mozell ISIS giddiness reporter France Yeovil Iraqi government
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

02:52 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"You can only do it in places that they have held for some time right after they've been liberated. But I've tried to do that in my reporting. I mean, I've tried to go to the terrorist group in my reporting through a number of other avenues. So as you know, I basically track them online and then I tried to speak to them and I have whenever I'm in Iraq and Syria, I always spend a significant amount of time in the jails just interviewing them interviews that oftentimes are never published. I've interviewed dozens of them by now and I've, I think of put on the record that who's Asia the rapist in chapter nine one guy who was cited in one of my ISIS file story, like really like a handful of them. I've put on the record because of the issues with this gust about how do you fact check their stories. Okay. So you've done this a few times now? Yes. And you've got. This black hole of an ISIS territory where you can't just, you know in there and get the documents right on right. A so are these documents mostly held in jump drives and on paper? Because I don't hear a lot about people like hacking into the rockets, the accuracy, look whenever I got these buildings in Iraq. And the thing to note is I was always with the Iraqi military, but I was with the regular army. I was with the guys, you know, the guys who were there to fight before I got there. Military intelligence had typically already searched the buildings and one of the ways I knew that this was an ISIS building in addition to the graffiti and whenever we find on a wall is we would always find a stack of, you know, you know, the laptop computers, right? That what he called the tower yet. Right. You would find like four or five of these towers in the courtyard of the building were about to search with the hard-drive yanked out, right? So clearly somebody who cared about the hard-drive, namely, military intelligence. Was there before us, and they're the ones who are getting the electric data in the whole time that I did this. And I was looking for ISIS documents on five different trips over a year and a half in Iraq. I think I found three USB sticks. You know, one of them was completely useless. It was like somebody's wedding photos. You so excited. I run a friend. Exactly. I found in that building that you were talking about that I was trying to get to. We found a briefcase that belong to an ISIS Amir, and in the briefcase, there were three CD. Roms one was completely destroyed and we could never recover it. The second and the third were damaged and Ruina Sandvik was my incredible colleague at the times that who deals with digital security and at everything related to buy thi. She was able to fix them enough that we were able to get into them. And in one of them, we found just a trove of salary data and expenses. So basically it was the guy who's briefcase we had was an accountant for one of ISIS ministries..

Iraq Ruina Sandvik Asia Syria accountant
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

02:22 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"Not necessarily ISIS, whatever? Yeah, whatever comes after. Yeah. Say, while this is what happened to someone who did something Liz, I think that you make a good point, which is what we do with these ISIS members is definitely going to have repercussions down the road. So right now in just in Syria in a collection of facilities that are ruined by coalition partners by Kurdish rebels that are backed by didn't states, they are holding around a thousand ISIS members from fifty different countries. And the reason they're holding them is those countries don't want them back. What's going to happen with them? Is it just going to be this open air Guantanamo where they kind of leave them there forever. The curse. Have been consistently complaining. The Kurds aren't the rebel group that's holding them. They don't wanna be holding them. You know, like they were fighting this fight because they haven't independence, you know, struggle over there and they've suddenly been left holding the bag of one thousand extremely dangerous. In some cases, ISIS member, someone, some pretty famous ISIS figures are in this modern age. This new day sort of one Tano thousands, a lot of people a Kurdistan standards and is like. in like a giant country. It's a lot of people to, and yeah, a lot of able bodied young men who who held various positions in the world's most feared terrorist group. And so I mean, for example, the Beatles are there desert the British citizens who held James fully and Peter casting and Kayla Mueller. The Americans were killed. The Brits do not want them back because they're afraid that the case is going to fall apart in British court. Britain does not have the same material support laws that we do. There's a lot of restrictions about what kind of evidence is allowable in court, and so they're, they're in this limbo. The families of the executed hostages said in a New York Times, editorial, bring them to the US. It does nobody any favors if he put these guys in a black hole Guantanamo, what would be helpful is put them on trial in America where you can see them into dock, and they're going to look like a bunch of pathetic people and where you can take them apart and let them. Justice. I've heard people talk about a kind of ISIS Nuremberg trial, but that's, you know, that's gonna be years in the making. I don't even know if that's ever going to happen, but we're now in this. I mean, it's really a problem. What are we going to do with these people? And there's going to be more dead or captured because is still controls over nine hundred square miles of land just in Iraq and Syria..

ISIS America Syria James Kurdistan Liz New York Times Iraq Beatles US Britain Kayla Mueller Peter nine hundred square miles
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

03:53 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"You know your, your background, your education and literally creates a dossier for you to signal your entry into the Islamic State. John does dossier has been found. I have a copy of it. The government has a copy of it. That should be an enormous piece of evidence to shout. This is really ISIS while the issue is chain of custody. If this goes, you know, before a court in America, his lawyers are going to say, well, how do you know that this is? How do you know that he actually filled out, you know, this thing, how is how do we know that this is not fake, and how do you prove that the document that was carried out on the USB stick by presumably somebody that had some. Inked ISIS is the real deal. Right? I have to say as a layman. It's a strange trajectory. We've gone from kidnapping people, putting them in secret detention centers on its boats and in other countries, putting them in Guantanamo with very limited due process to, yeah, we know he was in Syria, but and we like have a document. But we can't. I mean, that evidence compared to the evidence of some of the people who are in Guantanamo, seems stronger rum, and it almost feels like there's like two different systems being applied. Is that because these are American and Canadians said, 'isms well, definitely citizens and I wouldn't say just American and Canadian. I would say citizens of western liberal democracies. They all come from systems that have due process, right? The enemy combatant model has been very problematic. You know, President Obama tried very hard to shut down on the Guantanamo Bay and the detention center there. So the consensus. Seems to be that the best thing is to bring these people back on western soil and try them there. It's more transparent. It doesn't play into the hottest groups propaganda because Kuantan IMO is is a place that is associated with torture and bad things, but then you're up against the limits of the law and what is ironic is people that only got as far as the airport, as far as JFK, let's say, or O'Hare or get or Newark airport, those people are being picked up and are being regularly prosecuted and put away for for long periods of time. Because once again, everything up to that point happened on US soil in a situation where you can get their phone records, you can start looking at their chats, you can. You can see the evidence that they're communicating with the terrorist group, showing intention to join it. Once they go there. I mean, you can maybe prove that they entered Syria. There's there's actually no checkpoint there. You're being smuggled across a line in the sand so you can make inferences based on wall, he entered through, we think through Gerald Lewis. This is one of the well-known entry points into ISIS controlled territory. But if from that point on nothing emerges no video of him in a propaganda, shoot no intake form from ISIS than how do you prove that this person really was an ISIS, and if they get a good defense lawyer, that person's gonna say, well, maybe he was journalist, you know, trying to create a portfolio as a freelance reporter in a war. I've heard of all guerrilla range of ways to deal with people who are returning from the Scandinavian model, which is rehabilit- Ori basically putting people in job programs and giving them therapy and just pushing them right back into society to countries where they're almost certainly going to get executed. To these American Canadian, and we smaller examples where really talking about a few people when these different approaches come up, do you think that they in will inform future generations like well, future teenager in a chat racing who is being recruited for?.

ISIS President Obama Syria US Guantanamo Islamic State Guantanamo Bay Gerald Lewis kidnapping America Kuantan reporter O'Hare Newark
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

02:44 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"And in fact, one of the reasons I insisted are going back to Canada to see him right before publication is I wanted to look him in the eye and say, you're probably going to be identified. It's your voice. There's only ten or so members at a returned to Canada. So it's already one at ten. Yeah, and it's your voice and is a very specific story right was were you going like that's kind of crazy that he agreeing to this? What? What? What? What this is a whole other thing he so it was a year and a half recording and reporting process that we went through. He was on board with it for about a year and about six months before publication. He I asked us, can you change on you? Can you change my non Daguerre and we went back to him a news we can't. I mean, all of our tape is used saying, who's Asia Jose fa, you know that we, if we beep it out the whole time, it's just going to it's not gonna work. So he then, you know, he didn't the mirror it. He came back a little bit later, and then it finally went to him trying. To kill it by trying to tell us I made everything up, right? But at that point, we had several different government agencies, confirming the basic outlines of historic. And we had these other pieces of the story where we knew that a very minimum, he joined ISIS and went to Syria, but we wrestled with this idea, was our project going to cause harm to a source. But the sources ISIS young, right? And in the end that didn't happen. And that's a whole other thing where Canadian officials from everything I've learned or not able to lock him up for the same reasons that we were not able to say with one hundred percents certainty that he did the things that he said he did, and there's another case of some an American in Dearborn, an American who's being returned in the next few days. He's one of only three Americans that have been caught on the three American men that have been caught on the battlefield. One was successful returned prosecuted. I think he got twenty years. This is going to be another test case, but there's a guy that's being held in Syria right now. He's been identified only as John Doe. His lawyers have have not allowed him to be identified, and I have seen the evidence. It's pretty clear to me that this is an ISIS member, but the case has fallen apart for some of the same issues that we dealt with with Ziva, namely that the evidence they have would not. Not be able to be entered into court because of the rules of due process and forensic data. So for example, this guy, John Doe, he felt out the same intake form that we hear who's AFA fill out when he reaches ISIS controlled territory. Basically, when you get into ISIS controlled territory, you're put in a dormitory and the nicest bureaucrat takes down your mother's name, your father's name..

ISIS Syria Canada Asia AFA Dearborn twenty years six months
"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

04:12 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"That's right. So continuing with that interrogation tradition tradition. So at what point did you was it your idea to do a radio thing? It actually wasn't. It's a very New York Times story in that. My colleague, Andy mills who was then at radio lab had interviewed for a job at the New York Times. We were getting ready to launch daily, which is our daily podcast, and in his interview they asked him. So what are the kind of things that you like to do? Are there any projects he'd like to do? And he said, I'd like to do a serialized podcast with for community cutting monkey on ISIS and of the people interviewing him said, great, great. Let's do that. And, and they said that without asking me. And thank God. They didn't came and asked me. And of course I was completely flattered and you know, very happy to do it, but it was anti CD and he, I had never thought of ISIS as something that would work well for radio. Yeah, I would have thought the thing so much of our previous discussions on telegram resting on all of these right text format. Like I almost feel you can make like a iphone documentary, all like chat chat out. Exactly. What other than a few times when you said that you had like Skype with people, it seems like most of the communication was not Lynn Vaughan. Yeah, that's right. And a lot of things have happened since then. So one of those things is that I is has lost a lot of territory and with every square mile of land that was taken back. You have an area of land. You know a piece of real estate that you can go as journalist to visit and you can find human beings that either interacted with ISIS, collaborated with ISIS. Or were victims of ISIS. So that gives you people that you can then interview, right. And Secondly, there was now a Bank of people that were in jails in the western world that were ISIS members that we could try to reach out to. And so that's sort of the way we started to think about it, and we never imagined that we, we would actually be able to meet a nicest member in the flesh in North America in nature, let's say in the wild, and that's what ended up happening told me about why meeting someone in the flash would be different than say, interviewing them by phone or something like that. Look when you're interviewing them by an I was mostly speaking to them on telegram chats. When you're speaking to them in a chat function, they're using a Kuna Onoda Geir. So in this case he would have been whose Atholl Kennedy. Right. And oftentimes they don't go beyond that. They won't tell you the real identity and that at the New York Times presents a real problem because then you're, you're talking to your editor and you say, well, he really sounds like a nicest member. He saying all the right things. Well, how how can you be sure that it's not somebody in his mom's basement, you know? And so how can you be sure that this is really nicest member that you're talking to. You can be sure if they're in jail of you've been somebody else's sort of done the work for you, right? Or you can be sure if you meet them out in the world and the way you met them lead you to learn the real identity and through their real identity, you can then fact check elements of their story. Right? So that's part of it. And then beyond that, I mean, there's a human interaction. You know, that happens when you're face to face. With somebody that you know, you try on the phone to create a human connection. It's not as easy as when you're able to look at somebody face to face. When I was listening to this Abboud Josefa week, we call them who's f. Hussein who's Eva when I when you started to pick apart his story. So the first half of caliphate is basically a first person, yes, member of ISIS, describing what pretty much from start to finish examining participating in and leaving ISIS, actually with very few interruptions. It's almost like it's him doing the podcast. That's right. Other than some framing of how you've got. That's right. Even with this deep focus on him, there's a huge amount of doubt in the show, and I could feel it both in your skepticism in real time..

ISIS New York Times Atholl Kennedy Andy mills Kuna Onoda Geir North America Skype Abboud Josefa Lynn Vaughan Hussein editor Eva
"rukmini" Discussed on KCRW

KCRW

03:00 min | 2 years ago

"rukmini" Discussed on KCRW

"Back to iraq new york times foreign correspondent rukmini komaki brought back fifteen thousand isis documents that help tell the story of isis as an administrative state welcome to the program thank you when you first started finding these documents how long did it take you to realize what you had they cite versus from islamic jurisprudence and from the koran to justify what they are doing in their minds this is completely legitimate and there's nothing wrong with it so i'm going to pick a detail actually and ask you to talk about that very idea more than once in in all the great interactive stuff on site and on your articles it points out that the system the administrative state worked better under isis that it had under previous regimes i want you to talk about garbage collection short if i could just add one caveat work better in certain sectors and and regarding specific services but a big one was garbage collection and this i heard all over northern iraq and that seems to be a constant in other parts of the caliphate as well and what people said is that during the iraqi government time the garbage sweepers and the drivers of trash compressors would just kind of zip through their neighborhood they wouldn't stop really to pick anything up people had to kind of run behind the garbage compressor to go dump their trash and as a result the city was not very clean i comes in a new discipline is imposed the thing that's interesting is it was the exact same street cleaners as before the street cleaners did not change what changed is the iron fist that isis brought to this and the threat of violence how come for the first number of years that that we were trying to figure out what isis was how do we get it so wrong how did we get the financing so wrong and think that it was all oil because that was all you heard their findings themselves with oil and and bond the oilfields and it'll be fine well i mean not not to draw attention to myself or anything but there were a number there were quite a few voices in the wilderness that we're seeing from early on this doesn't make sense it's just that this idea of the black market oil i think it really captured the imagination it seemed to fit what.

york times rukmini komaki iraq iraqi government