20 Episode results for "Royal Free Hospital"

Panic Virus Pt. 1

Medical Mysteries

44:27 min | 8 months ago

Panic Virus Pt. 1

"This episode contains graphic descriptions of medical afflictions that some people may find disturbing. We advise caution for listeners. Under thirteen the Royal Free Hospital's Nineteen ninety-eight vaccine panel was supposed to follow routine in the medical field. Just like the vaccine. The five invited doctors were there to speak on unfortunately this discussion of the measles mumps and rubella vaccine otherwise known as the M M are shot would be anything but regular scientists professors reporters and aspiring medical students. All milled about before taking their seats. They knew that one of the panelists. Dr Andrew Wakefield had received hundreds of thousands of dollars through his medical school the British government and private donors to fund his research on the vaccine. They were eager to hear his results to watch another disease. All a domino in the face of science as flashbulbs popped Dr Wakefield stepped up to the microphone. But the words he started to spout. We're not in support of the vaccine. He claimed that his research had proven just the opposite he claimed autism could actually be caused by the M. R. Vaccine but by now it had already been administered to millions of children. All over the World Andrew Wakefield had just become the father of the anti vaccination movement and the confusion he introduced was about to go viral. When our bodies fail we trust doctors to diagnose the problem but medicine isn't always an exact science. Sometimes it's a guessing game with life or death stakes. This is medical mysteries apart. Cast original molly. And I'm Richard. Every Tuesday will look at the strangest real life medical cases in history and the experts who raced against the clock to solve them as we follow these high intensity stories. We'll explore medical research. That might solve the puzzle next week. In part two will analyze all the evidence and try to find an answer. You can find episodes of medical mysteries and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever. You listen to podcasts to stream medical mysteries for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type medical mysteries in the search bar at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at our cast and twitter at podcast network? This is our first episode on Andrew Wakefield a physician an anti vaccine activist Wakefield convinced millions of people that vaccines could cause developmental delays and disorders in children. This week will explore how Wakefield came to this dangerous conclusion how he got his funding and how we parlayed that into an entire movement. Is it possible that Andrew Wakefield genuinely saw a connection between these diseases and the vaccine? Was he a well. Meaning but misguided doctor or a medical con artist. Next week we'll see how Wakefield's influence began to permeate the United States. His movement caused new waves of paranoia. Has Parents stopped vaccinating? Their infants will also see how his campaign may have caused. Nearly extinct diseases to reappear for the first time in decades vaccination is the most effective method for preventing disease. It's so widespread and routine. Most of us don't even remember getting vaccines as children not to mention keeping track of what we've gotten by adulthood or if we got the flu shot this year or the year. Before with this routine the scarier question becomes. Do we know what we're shooting into our body when we do get vaccinated according to the Department of Health and Human Services for Australia. Vaccines are made of dead or weakened versions of diseases that actually strengthen the immune system technically. They're training Dojo before the real fight and they work like this. As the immune system realizes the body is under attack from a disease antibodies trace the contours of the disease. Making a mirror image. Once the antibodies finish that mirror image the immune system is able to dismantle the disease by adhering to it perfectly. Antibodies have an excellent memory and retain their instructions so if the disease returns the body is ready to fight. The downside is when we first get vaccinated. The body is at risk of getting the very disease. It is trying to protect against but the risk is so low that scientists have determined. Vaccines are still the safer choice. Vaccines are responsible for the ratification of several dangerous diseases. Smallpox rabies polio. Tetanus diseases that used to infect and slaughter huge populations are essentially extinct today. Vaccines are an incredibly important part of modern public health and we are in out to discuss whether one should or shouldn't vaccinate. We're here to investigate the mystery of what Dr Andrew Wakefield new and why the Anti Vaccine Movement spread across the globe when Andrew Wakefield began promoting his anti vaccine theories in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. It was actually the latest development in a long history of vaccine controversy. The first account of inoculation actually originated in the sixteen hundreds in China during the reign of Emperor Kangxi. The emperor survived smallpox as a child later in life he found that grinding up smallpox scabs and blowing them into his children's nostrils actually inoculated them from the disease. The emperor later said I had inoculation used upon you my sons and daughters and you all pass through the smallpox in the happiest possible manner. This nostril snorting form of inoculation known as very relation was essentially the world's very first steps toward vaccination however it was before inoculation saw widespread use despite the emperor's discovery smallpox continue to kill people across the globe including ninety percent of the native people of the Americas smallpox reached Charleston South Carolina in seventeen. Thirty eight however a British doctor known to history as Dr Mowbray had experienced with various relation. He introduced the inoculation technique to the people of Charleston transferring infected pus and blood from one unhealthy person to another. It may have seemed disgusting but it was effective out of the four hundred and forty one people inoculated in Charleston. Only four percent died compared to eighteen percent of non inoculated people by Seventeen fifty. Nine William Heatherton a UK. Physician was one of the very first doctors to encourage his patients to inoculate their children against smallpox cotton. Mather a prominent puritan minister began preaching. That inoculations were actually a gift from God but others felt that inoculation was the devil's work and believed ailments like smallpox or a sign of God's divine judgment not to be interrupted or interfered with in seventeen ninety six English naturalist. Edward Jenner took great interest. In the fact that milkmaids never seemed to get smallpox. Despite constantly handling infected blisters on cowpox ridden bovines he began to wonder if infecting someone with cowpox could protect them from smallpox. Jenner had extensive knowledge of surgical and medical practice as well as a background in biology so he was extremely qualified for this study in. May Seventeen Ninety six. He founded dairy made by the name of Sarah Nells who appeared to have cowpox lesions on her hands. He decided to take the matter from her cowpox. Lesions and test his theories of inoculation by injecting them into an eight year. Old boy named James Phipps. James fell ill for a few days but only developed a mild fever and some loss of appetite after he recovered Jenner inoculated. The boy again with matter from a smallpox lesion this time no disease developed before Jenner. People thought the only way to inoculate from one disease was to give the patient the same disease but Edward Jenner discovered that dosing patient with one disease could help inoculate against a completely different condition. This was a huge scientific achievement. It lowered the risk of patients contracting disease post inoculation but Edward Jenner's report on his breakthrough was rejected by the Royal Society. Mainly because it seemed too risky. But that didn't stop. Jenner from testing his methods on his own son and he to remain healthy unfortunately for Jenner the Royal Society debated his findings for years. But that didn't stop. The findings from spreading Jenner continued to his findings throughout his lifetime. Spain began mass vaccination programmes for its colonies in eighteen. O three and soon other developing nations began to follow suit by the Eighteen Twenty S. There was a decrease in mortality within smallpox cases from eighteen thousand four hundred forty seven deaths in London to only seven thousand eight hundred fifty eight deaths by the nineteen hundreds Jenner's pipe dream of a world without infectious diseases was becoming less of a dream every day. The CDC reported that measles in the United States alone decreased from just over seven hundred. Sixty three thousand in nineteen fifty eight to less than one hundred and fifty cases a year and by nineteen seventy seven. It was common practice for parents to have their children vaccinated by the end of the twentieth. Century eleven thousand infants in the United States. Were being born day. Each expecting to receive fifteen to nineteen vaccines in their first. Eighteen months of life as a result many world populations developed herd immunity essentially. It's the idea that the more people vaccinated the more unlikely it is that an outbreak will occur without her immunity. One person can cause a massive spread of infections over a relatively short time for example in two thousand fourteen. An Amish community in Ohio was dramatically affected by three hundred and fifty new cases of measles. The outbreak traced to a single man. Who brought the disease back from the Philippines while most of Ohio is safe the amish community who did not vaccinate faced an epidemic the Amish have avoided vaccinations for a variety of reasons. But mostly they see it as a risk to their health rather than a benefit additionally it compromises their religious beliefs by placing their faith in man over their faith in God. The Amish people who do not vaccinate rely on the herd immunity of the wider United States. If a disease is eradicated here they won't be exposed but this brings us to one of the most dangerous assumptions about vaccines and modern times. An idea that became more prevalent around the time Dr Andrew Wakefield began his vaccine studies in the nineteen nineties when the majority of the population is inoculated. A single individual cannot be infected. This creates a unique paradox when it comes to vaccines the more effective of accion his the less we think we need them and the more common vaccines become the less familiar. We become with the diseases that they cure outer body. Outta mind take polio. For example a disease that would be extremely strange and alarming to seeing someone today because we have inoculated it entirely. No one is concerned with catching disease that their parents hardly remember anti vaccination groups which have been around since seventeen ninety six when Edward Jenner released. His findings are perpetuated by this concept. Some people's fears run even deeper believing there's an imaginary elite seeking to control the entire nation through forced poisonous vaccination which was how jabs was launched in January of Nineteen Ninety four jabs or justice awareness and basic support is an anti vaccination group which argued that the measles mumps and rubella vaccine caused brain damage and other problems in children scientists universally regard this as a myth however jabs followers were loud and growing in number sensational coverage appeared in UK tabloids with headlines. Like my son. Went Bald after his Measles Jab. However the group didn't really take off until a scientist join them British physician Andrew Wakefield Dr Wakefield's credentials were impressive. They made people believe his research was legitimate and he claimed that he had made a profound discovery one that caused thousands of concerned parents to worship him. Much like Edward Jenner who was marked for his vaccination theories yet continued to advocate for Change Andrew Wakefield Clung to his findings once Wakefield made a claim he would go to great lengths to promote it. The trouble was Dr Wakefield claimed he had discovered irrefutable proof that there were actually dangerous repercussions to getting vaccinated and this had been kept a secret for decades coming up. Wakefield goes to great lengths to prove that vaccines cause incurable diseases and disorders. Hi It's Richard. If you haven't heard the new podcast series supernatural with Ashley Flowers yet. I highly recommend you head on over and subscribe today. It's a fantastic series. That's gotten off to a very successful start. So thank you to everyone who tuned in so far. We're very proud of it. Every Wednesday Ashley Flowers takes on a different crime or mystery where the most fitting theory isn't always the most conventional here are some of the incredible episodes that have been featured so far where the deaths of two Brazilian men result of making contact with spirits on Mars. Get closer to the truth than ever before. Regarding the mystifying lead masks case who and what were responsible for the unexplained death of Australia's Somerton man dig deeper into the peculiar details and poetry involved in the case and was Italian theoretical physicist at Tora Myron disappearance caused by his discovery of time travel or was it something more sinister each week Ashley takes on this strange and surreal to explain some of the world's most bizarre true crime occurrences. It has mystery. It has intrigued and it certainly has my attention. I hope you enjoy it to follow supernatural with Ashley. Flowers free on spotify over ever. You get your podcasts now. Back to the story. Born in Nineteen fifty seven Andrew Wakefield was the son of a neurologist and general practitioner. A career in public health seemed inevitable rolling up in the nineteen seventies. Wakefield was the head boy at his private school in Britain. He was a natural born leader an influence her but he was also athletic an amateur rugby player which he juggled with receiving his doctorate by the young age of twenty five. Being the son of two doctors Wakefield was used to authority. He understood what it took to sustain the appearance of professionalism but on the other hand he was attracted to the myth of the underdog. Doctor who could discover new cures to terrible diseases wakefield strive to become that hero soon. Wakefield began working as a transplant surgery researcher studying tissue rejection problems in small intestine transplants. It wasn't long before he was promoted to senior lecturer at the Royal. Free Medical School in London but suspiciously Wakefield only published three research papers in the first decade of his career. Typically Post Docs published one or two papers a year and Wakefield's papers all revolved around. Crohn's disease an autoimmune disorder that can cause the body to incorrectly identify food as invasive material the immune system attacks the perceived threat and white blood cells coat. The walls of the small intestine leading to painful inflammation as of today the disease remains incurable but Wakefield argued. That Crohn's disease didn't actually come from the immune system's reaction to food is a threat instead. Wakefield was convinced it occurred because of the clogged blood vessels in the walls of the gut. Wakefield came to this conclusion after flipping through a textbook on the study of viruses. He read description that claimed a form of ulcers came from the measles but Wakefield saw the exact same condition. In those who had Crohn's disease he started to wonder was measles the causes of crowns if Crohn's was linked to measles this could have led to a revolutionary treatment for those with disease. However this link remains speculative and Wakefield's peers believed. He didn't have enough evidence to support his conclusions. Wakefield continued his studies and never found a reason to revise his theory in fact his colleagues critiques only reinforced. His certainty was stubborn and now he was hell bent on proving that this discovery could have global implications in nineteen ninety-three Wakefield submitted a paper to the Journal of Medical Virology. With information that he believed proved Crohn's disease was caused by the measles. Virus panel convened to analyze and confirm Wakefield's data but the panel found that. His data was so weak that his conclusions were basically meaningless so wakefield tried again Wakefield new. Hundreds of thousands of people suffered from Crohn's every year and he wanted to be the one to cure the disease. He published another paper examining the link between measles and inflammatory bowel disease but once again Wakefield could not provide concrete evidence to connect the two academic panels again debunked him teams in the United States and Japan even attempted to replicate his findings but they too discovered no link between measles and krones it was then that Wakefield teamed up with a PR COMPANY. Who was willing to help. Spread his theories despite the lack of hard facts after hiring the PR team. Wakefield made a third attempt at convincing the academic community with yet another paper. This paper claimed that when given together the measles mumps and rubella vaccines could cause measles to invade and damage the intestines this reaction could then move up to the brain causing irreconcilable harm to the neural systems. This caught the attention of a man named Richard Bar bar was a lawyer employed by the Anti Vaccine Group Jabs and he pushed Wakefield to examine a third link. This time between autism krones and the vaccine. It's not exactly clear why bar wanted to include autism in Wakefield's research but it is clear he was a lawyer who stood to profit if he could sue vaccine manufacturers on behalf of jabs most likely bar new autism was under studied he saw dollar signs and he pointed. Wakefield in their direction bar began wiring Wakefield money. One hundred fifty pounds an hour plus expenses to support jabs attack on the manufacturer's this broke ethical protocol regarding scientific experiments if a scientist was receiving money for producing supporting evidence during an experiment. Then that could certainly influenced the results. The idea of a prophet definitely motivated Wakefield to elevate his studies which made it appear as if Wakefield was in this line of work for all the wrong reasons and the money wasn't just coming from Bar Wakefield was also able to get fifty thousand pounds from the British government's Legal Aid Fund by the Mid Nineteen Ninety s more than a thousand worried families had joined Jabs Class Action Lawsuit Against Vaccine Manufacturers. The British government had agreed to help pay for the defense defense that now included Andrew Wakefield in this convoluted way the British government ended up bankrolling the lawsuit and subsequently Wakefield's research. The Anti Vaccine Movement had been present since vaccines were invented but if Wakefield was promising to turn up results the movement now had some fire behind it if axioms did prove to be the cause of disease. These families stood a chance at receiving billions in compensation for their hardships. Now Dr Wakefield was receiving hundreds of thousands of pounds in personal payments from Bar who had a vested interest in making sure that Wakefield's evidence proved. Vaccinations were harming children. Bar even found patients for Wakefield to include in his study like eight-year-old Michael whose name has been changed to protect his identity. Michael's mother was convinced. Her son had autism and she believed it had appeared as a result of his. Mr Vaccination Michael was admitted to the Royal Free Hospital in the fall of Nineteen ninety-six after experiencing severe bowel issues here. He was diagnosed with Crohn's disease thirty nine year. Old Andrew Wakefield was shocked to hear this diagnosis. This information actually supported the theory that certain irreparable ailments such as autism and Crohn's disease were linked and caused by M R vaccines. Michael had krones and autism. Because of his vaccination Wakefield looked at Michael's charts. Michael was vaccinated when he was fifteen months. Old In November. Nineteen eighty nine shortly. After Michael's mother noticed behavioral changes and Join Jabs. She blamed Michaels vaccines for his poor health. Within a week after Michael was diagnosed in nineteen ninety six Wakefield revealed an eleven page draft of his paper linking vaccines to autism. And CROHN's disease. This would come to be known as the Lancet paper now infamous in medical circles in the paper. Wakefield hypothesized that some children were unable to handle three vaccines at once. As a result the measles part of the vaccine landed in the small intestine where it caused a leaky gut. He then argued that opioid peptides. That are naturally produced during digestion escaped through the poorest leaky gut and breached the blood brain barrier overwhelming children's brains and the study didn't end with Michael Wakefield investigated twelve children who supposedly acquired developmental and gut disorders. After receiving the vaccine. He went through prior medical and psychological records of the children including details of previous immunizations and exposures. He noted that five of the children had a bad reaction to the measles. Mumps Rubella vaccination when it occurred they had rashes fevers convulsions and delirium after examining their medical histories he began performing tests. Wakefield took 'em or is an e jeez controversially Wakefield performed painful Ilia colonoscopies on the children and Ilia colonoscopy is an endoscopic evaluation of the Liam's a portion of the small intestine and the colon it's now considered invasive for children and a procedure that should be avoided unless necessary in the paper. Wakefield concluded that all twelve children developed autism colitis or both as a direct result of the vaccine. He tried to exemplify this research. By pointing to each patient Scutt Wakefield identified what he called a Red Halo. Swollen LYMPHOID ENLARGED IDIOMS. Wakefield also claimed half of the children in his study developed digestive issues gut problems and autistic traits only days after being vaccinated but because Wakefield's Lancet study was partially based on patients experiences and anecdotes and not on a formal experiment. It relied heavily on speculative conclusions. Additionally most of the children's parents in Wakefield study were ardent anti vaxxers and already bias group who are giving him evidence based on how they perceived history the Lancet Haber was nothing more than a case series a collection of detailed stories about patients. Medical backgrounds key series are generally regarded as the weakest kinds of medical studies questionable methods aside the paper was still published in Nineteen Ninety Eight. Wakefield prepared to reveal his Lancet paper at the Royal Free Hospital Press Conference Wakefield was about to become the underdog doctor. He always dreamed of becoming a white horse savior to the medical community and Wakefield could not be more excited. When he didn't consider was that it would horrify parents and prevent them from immunizing their kids possibly leading to outbreaks and countless deaths all over neglect coming up next. Wakefield startling results are announced to the public causing shockwaves throughout the UK and abroad. Now Back to the story Dr Andrew. Wakefield will leave. He'd made a medical breakthrough and he was prepared to share his research at a massive televised press conference in the Royal Free Hospital. On February Twenty Sixth Nineteen Ninety eight journalists were invited and came in droves as flashbulbs popped Wakefield stepped up to the Mike and dropped a bomb that would ripple throughout the medical community with the debate. Over 'em are that has started. I cannot support the continued use of the three vaccines given together. My concerns are that one more case of this is too many. He went on to clearly state that he believed the MMR vaccine was causing inflammatory bowel disease and autism in young children who received vaccination now people were shouting panicking. The room exploding with chaos. It was more than likely that most of the people had already given their child. The vaccine to learn that these vaccines may have caused any number of developmental. Disorders was terrifying reality that everyone might now have to face the dean of the Royal Free Hospital Professor Ariz. Zukerman tried to get the room under control. He didn't expect Wakefield to make such an incendiary statement. Zukerman tried to reassure the crowd that the vaccine was safe saying if this were to precipitate a scare that reduced the rate of immunization children will start dying from measles but it seemed no one wanted to hear his side of the argument. The news opened a floodgate of rumors. Which now permeated throughout the city of London? As expected frantic parents called the hospital phone lines about the news but they were given a fact sheet that Wakefield had designed himself in told director questions to their pediatricians causing further hysteria. The London press took the side of the road. Doctor who had come up with a radical explanation rather than the less appealing scientific evidence next morning sensational headlines showcase the risks of Vaccinations Band three and one jab urged doctors after new fears and doctors linked autism. To 'em vaccine the national vaccine rate dropped over ten percent in the UK over the late nineteen nineties with even larger drops in some parts of London by two thousand three five years after Wakefield's announcement the US vaccination rate among two year olds fell to seventy eight point nine percent well below the ninety two percent. The Department of Health says is needed to maintain herd immunity as many as one hundred and twenty five thousand. Us children born in the late. Nineteen Ninety s did not get the M. R. Vaccine at all. Despite all of this the Royal Free Medical School continued to keep Dr Wakefield employed as one of their gastroenterologist. Meanwhile the public had no idea that Wakefield was being paid by lawyers to build a case against vaccines. Many believed Wakefield's intentions were altruistic. Some even believed that Wakefield might end up winning the Nobel prize for these groundbreaking results. This begs the question was Dr Wakefield trying to heal people or was he greedy for money and fame at the expense of children's health. Was He just as indoctrinated as the frantic parents he advised. The first clue to his motivations is in a draft of the Lancet paper itself in addition to covering his findings it proposes ideas for a new company one that would set up diagnostic tests for Crohn's disease in concerned patients all over the world. This new company predicted a profit of seventy two point. Five million pounds a year more than Wakefield could ever hope to earn as a professor in London. But was this just fortuitous. A man truly stumbling on a righteous cause and changing his career path or was Wakefield intentionally scamming everyone. He came in contact with after his study released. Wakefield tried to raise two point one million pounds from investors for his company which he named Immuno specifics biotechnologies limited the company claimed they were searching for a replacement for these vaccines whether or not they had other intentions was never made clear but can we infer more of his possible intentions from what happened next. In the early two thousands the Lancet Medical Journal made a fascinating discovery. They hit investigated. Wakefield and found. His methods. Did Not hold to a scientific standard more importantly they realized that Colitis was not present. In any of the twelve children from Wakefield study their discovery voided Wakefield research and Lancet editors began working on a statement of retraction of the nineteen ninety eight article however the information was already out there newspaper. Headlines could not be unpublished. People were no longer getting their routine. Vaccinations damage had already been done now. It was time for Wakefield to defend his debunked results so he emphasized his brand new medical diagnosis called autistic Interro colitis. He claimed that autistic Interro Colitis was what showed up in these children. Not Crohn's disease or ulcerative. Colitis symptoms of Autistic Andro. Colitis are chronic constipation bloating and reflux in combination with Developmental Regression Wakefield speculated that this happened because of material passing from the Gut wall into the rest of the body and autistic Interro. Colitis shows a unique and distinct pattern of inflammation in the gut which could easily be confused as crowns with its unverified. New Diagnosis Wakefield's paper held at least some merit amongst ANTIBAC- sers Wakefield was desperately trying to cling to some small sense of legitimacy whether Wakefield genuinely believed in his results is still unknown but he didn't plan to stop just because he was being investigated by medical experts. This is when mark pepys entered the scene. He was the new head of medicine. At Royal Free and the school's biggest name pepys himself was known for his work with blood proteins that helped identify the compounds of a disease which led to improve diagnostics and treatments for patients with a variety of ailments so pepys knew what. Wakefield was up to and he was not a fan in fact he found him to be downright unethical. Mark pepys spearheaded a backlash against Wakefield throughout the royal free medical school but the school felt an obligation to defend its staff even the controversial ones so the school promised to find Wakefield one hundred fifty more children to study and give Ilia colonoscopy to. They wanted him to replicate the results of his nineteen ninety eight Lancet paper. They were just as desperate as Wakefield was to prove there was a link between vaccines and diseases. Repeating the study on one hundred and fifty more children felt like a risk worth taking but three months went by and Wakefield did nothing. He took in no new subjects and did nothing to further his research. He was still on the staff payroll but he refused to replicate his study. Perhaps I knew it was on replicable. Or perhaps he knew that his results wouldn't be in his favor and didn't want to subject anymore. Children to his neglectful experimentation Wakefield blamed his refusal to perform the study on the school. He claimed they weren't giving him enough. Academic Freedom following this Wakefield was let go from his position at the Royal Free Hospital in October. Two thousand one wake shield would never repeat the experiment thus never proving. His ipod Asus a hypothesis. That was still causing mass hysteria. At home and overseas in two thousand three the Jabs Class Action Lawsuit Against the vaccine manufacturers was dropped hundreds of families had spent endless amounts of time and energy fighting against a common enemy ultimately it ended up costing millions in Legal Aid Soon. Dr Wakefield was being investigated by the General Medical Council. A public body that maintains the official register of medical practitioners within the UK. The General Medical Council is in charge of protecting promoting and maintaining the safety and health of the public and Wakefield was certainly threatening everything. They stood for in two thousand three. A British journalist named Brian deer also began looking into Wakefield. Dear was a journalist not a scientist but he was certain that Wakefield was more than just a professional who had been proven wrong dear believed Wakefield was a man who was actively unethical indoctrinated by his own beliefs and subsequently scanning millions of people Wakefield fell further into hot water in two thousand four ten of the twelve co authors on Wakefield. Lancet paper retracted. Their interpretation of Wakefield's data publishing a statement that read no causal link was established between 'em our vaccine and autism has the data was insufficient. Many of the parents of the children in the study denied the conclusions. Wakefield had made it became clear that patient number two Michael didn't ever have Crohn's disease to begin with and was sensationalized approve Wakefield's point it was later revealed. None of the children in the study were experiencing colitis and autism in conjunction. Deer also found that despite the papers claims that all twelve child subjects were quote normal re vaccination developmental delays had existed before the kids had even received their Mr Shot Wakefield's misinformation campaign was coming to light a report from the B. M. J. States. A great deal of thought and effort must have gone into drafting the paper to achieve the results. He wanted even ignoring the payments and the fame most professionals agreed that Wakefield must have intentionally obscured the facts. There was no other way to explain all that had gone on. Dear's findings were the final nail in the coffin. Although Wakefield had received large sums of money his reputation was completely tarnished throughout Britain unable to practice medicine in the UK Wakefield escaped to Austin Texas in two thousand four according to the CO founder J B Hanley of an Anti Vaccine Group called Generation Rescue Andrew Wakefield is Nelson Mandela and Jesus Christ rolled up into one to his American anti VACs following in Austin. He allied with Jenny McCarthy. Tv Personality and spokesperson for the Movement. Nobody would be able to undermine him in the United States where the next chapter of the Anti Vaccination Movement was about to reach new heights. Thanks for listening to medical mysteries. Next week we'll continue the story of Andrew Wakefield and the Anti Vaccine Movement and look at the possible medical explanations for autism and Crohn's disease did Wakefield genuinely believe what he was preaching. Were these diseases linked to vaccination? We'll find out next week for more information on Andrew Wakefield amongst many sources were used we found. Em Jay's article how the vaccine crisis was meant to take money and seth mannequins the panic virus extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of medical mysteries and all other parkas originals for free on spotify. Not only does spotify already. Have all of your favorite music? But now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy. All of your favorite park asked originals like medical mysteries for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream medical mysteries on spotify. Just open the APP tap browse and type medical mysteries in the search bar. And don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram. At podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Medical mysteries was created by Max Cutler. And his apar- cast studios original. It is executive produced by Max Cutler. Sound design by Anthony Val sick with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madman Travis Clark and Paul Molitor. This episode of medical mysteries was written by Amanda Prager with writing assistance by Maggie Admire and stars Molly Brandenburg and Richard Rosner listeners. I can't speak highly enough about the new podcast. Original series supernatural with Ashley Flowers every Wednesday. Take a deep dive into the strange and surreal to find the truth behind some of the world's most bizarre true crime occurrences. I had a chance to listen to a couple of episodes and I absolutely loved it. You definitely want to check it out search for supernatural with Ashley Flowers in the spotify APP and listen free today.

Dr Andrew Wakefield Wakefield Crohn's disease Wakefield United States UK Royal Free Hospital Press Conf Wakefield Royal Free Hospital Bar Wakefield ANTIBAC- sers Wakefield Lancet spotify Crohn scientist Movement Colitis Edward Jenner smallpox Ashley Flowers
S2 E9: Drowning in the Conspira-Sea

The Dream

27:08 min | 10 months ago

S2 E9: Drowning in the Conspira-Sea

"Previously on the dream I had my first grandma's when I was almost thirty years old came totally out of nowhere and of course when it happened. My husband posted on facebook to let all of my friends know what had happened to me to be taken away in an ambulance and it was very scary when I came home from. The hospital had no less than six messages from all of my friends. Who SOLD FOUR JE TERRA? Young living thrived plexus all promising needs but if I was just eating their product that they can help. Kill me from epilepsy. Then I have been diagnosed with these figures that maybe sent. I heard all of a sudden I would want to buy their wellness products. I get it but they still hit me up. Occasionally asked me if I'd like to get off of my anti seizure medicine and start their quotas on natural medicine here in the US we have a long and storied history of Big Pharma in the medical industrial complex and the government defrauding citizens take this recent example. So you know how when you go to the doctor. Nowadays they take a seat at a computer. And pull up your records those programs you see on the screen. Always look clunky to me. But someone designed them precisely for the purpose of tracking your health information for your doctor and insurance companies one of those companies that designed the software that keeps track of all your health data got busted by the US District Attorney's Office of Vermont for conspiring with an opioid manufacturer. Here's how the scam played out. Say you go in for back pain. Your doctor can ask you to rate the pain. Ask about other symptoms etc bleep bleep BLURP. They enter it into the computer program and the program spits out. Possible treatments may be physical therapy or Ibuprofen. Rest heat packs ice or drugs while in this scheme. Not only do. The drug company offered kickbacks to the Software Company to list its opiates in the menu of choices. The Software Company also let the Drug Company. Come in and help them design the program. You know help them. Choose what ailments. What criteria would trigger a suggestion to prescribe their drug? They were fined one hundred forty five million dollars or how about all the civilised studies done on people without their permission or radiation experiments carried out during the Cold War on poor folks prisoners and children one government study by the U. S. Atomic Energy Commission and quaker oats involved seventy-three mentally disabled kids. Who were told? They were joining Science Club. But in fact we're being poisoned by radioactive OATMEAL. Even though these incidents are few and far between thorough enough for conspiracy theorists to hang their hats on for someone to say well this is just the stuff we know about. Imagine what these bad actors are really hiding. The wellness industry benefits from these seeds of doubt plants them and sews them into fruitful fields of products and therapies and movements. That too often end up causing more harm than the stories that inspired them my name is Anna. Merlin and I'm an author and a senior reporter advice. Anna wrote a book last year called Republic of lies American conspiracy theorists and their surprising rise to power. She covers all kinds of conspiracies in the book. From the understandable to the way out there stuff and in it she cites studies that show that half of us half of Americans believe in at least one medical conspiracy almost twenty percent believe in more than three medical conspiracy theories I read a lot about. Subcultures broadly alternative religious movements alternative beliefs. And so as a subsection of that a few years ago I started writing really deeply about conspiracy theories and I got a specially involved and writing about the Anti Vaccine Movement and sort of it's increasing social and political power has spent a ton of time going to conferences and meetings and rallies held by people and organizations who believe that some scary bad actor is trying to fool us when it comes to our health. One those meetings she attended was on a boat So the thing that got me writing about conspiracy theories and concerted ways that I went on a cruise for conspiracy. There is called the conspiracy Sea It's a good pun. Yeah the conspiracy theorists always. Here's some clips from a video refinery twenty nine made while on the conspiracy cruise in two thousand sixteen. This thing we call reality is just another form of dream when you look at what happened on nine eleven truth. It's not who killed you did kill. Jfk everybody was beautiful. Beautiful Ladies of Global Alchemist cosmic pathologist intuitive astrologist. She's the amazing. Laura Eisenhower Tories. I was recruited to go off planet in two thousand six and I learned a lot about what's going on behind the scenes because of that so I share series but I also share things that are about as close to factors. I can get as far as what I've seen and experience. And you tune it draper frequency or a rate. That helps you. Falsify what you want. And then manifested. They don't want you to know that they're using hard to control the weather. They don't want to know what's in area fifty one. They don't want you to know that there is a small cartel of about seven hundred fifty people that own everything While I was there another person who is on the boat with me was Andrew Wakefield who is the person who authored the now debunked study claiming that there was a causal link between the scene and what he called regressive autism. Okay let's pause here and backup for a minute for those of you who've never heard of Andrew Wakefield you're lucky. He's the guy at the root of the decades long public panic around vaccines perhaps the most widespread and dangerous health conspiracy out there in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight he published a quote unquote study where he claimed at the measles. Mumps and Rubella Vaccine Amar for short caused autism the story of how he got there and how he was eventually kicked out of the mainstream medical community is fascinating and cruel a lot of ways back in the nineties. Wakefield was a gastroenterologist someone who studies how our guts function and he was doing research at the Royal Free Hospital in London a legit hospital. The story goes at least according to him and his devotees that he witnessed a causal link between the Mr Vaccine and autism and so he held this big press conference to tell people that he could no longer morally support giving vaccine to children. What he didn't say was far scarier earlier in the nineties in other papers. He claimed that the same vaccine caused irritable Bowel Syndrome. No wait another paper. He said it caused Crohn's disease. It costs something according to Wakefield it must because he had just filed a patent for a single shot measles vaccine and what's the easiest way to switch people from a triple threat back seen to your regressive seeming single threat? One tell them it'll hurt their kids. The Way Wakefield did this is an evil genius. Shit not only. Did he get funding for this Emma slash autism study from parents of autistic children who were planning to sue vaccine makers he recruited only twelve kids for the study eight of whom already showed symptoms? That is not a scientific study. Nevertheless his research appeared in the Lancet Medical Journal parents read it and everyone freaked out for a number of years until finally his theory was disproven enough times that the Lancet published a retraction and Wakefield lost his medical license Andrew Wakefield himself however never made a public apology or anything like that to the contrary he played the victim stating that his study was just too revolutionary. What happened next is not that surprising but pretty annoying dangerous. Wakefield decided that he still wanted to make a lot of money. And that's how he ended up on this cruise for self identifying conspiracy theorists. You'd think that a doctor who takes himself seriously wouldn't be caught dead in that sort of environment but Wakefield came up with some new bullshit to sell so he's got to go wherever people are buying his latest theory. Is that okay? Now stick with me because it gets really convoluted. He found a new opportunity in the emerging field of gut health. The idea that the flora and your stomach contributes to things like serotonin production. He's taken this pretty mainstream research and used it to claim that there's a link between gut health and autism as evidenced by the improved behavior of autistic children put on restrictive diets but remember correlation does not equal causation. What he's seizing on broadly. That non verbal autistic kids when they're in pain. They can't express it verbally and often like the way that they express it. Non Verbally is extremely alarming for them and their parents because they're obviously hurting and it's hard to figure out why and so You'll find that a lot of parents with autistic kids who go down the Anti Vaccine Roads. Start by Restrictive Diets No Gluten Diet and no casing diet something that they think will aid their kids gastrointestinal symptoms and lake. Make them feel better. Yeah so it's you know it is a again. It is a totally understandable thing to want to cut something out of your diet that you think might be hurting them and it is sort of a gateway towards some of these other claims preaching this New Gospel. One centered around. Diet addition to his persistent ANTIBAC- stance has been quite lucrative for Wakefield and it's helped him maintain the attention of one of the world's money hungriest leaders and and we've had so many instances people that worked for me just the other day two years old two and a half years old child. A beautiful child went to have the vaccine and came back and a week later. Got a tremendous fever. Got Very very sick. Now is autistic. So using the president's endorsement and these new and varying theories he's turned to other ways of making money like promoting alternative therapies at tons of different conferences doing speaking engagements and all that jazz at conferences. Not only like the conspiracy but places like autism one is the big one and it does bill itself as four families with autism. But when you get there there's all kinds of other panels about all kinds of other things. I would characterize it as pseudoscientific lectures on a variety of topics that to me. Sometimes don't seem directly related to autism. Here's a clip from a speech made autism one's two thousand eighteen conference by Dr. Billy demoss a chiropractor from Orange County California. But we've all been brainwashed by the tool that sits in your teeth in your family room. Which is the. Tv's take that piece of Shit and throw it out Reagan window. It will be the best thing that you ever did. You want to have success in life. Get rid of it. Because it's just a soul sucker is what it is. You know what I'm talking about sole factor what a dozen brainwash read the book. Nineteen eighty-four read the Book Straight. A brave new world. It's all right there. It's all prophecy to where this is all going and I don't have a cell phone yet either folks. Okay plus you know. I'm just not sure that we'll be one of these. Your Head Emmy. You guys could be part of that. Guinea pig experimental basis cigarettes for save the Health Freedom Movement. Broadly anti they all say that the government is hiding the cure for cancer or autism. Or what have you because They make more money off of us. When we're sick you know that there is no money in a cure. There's only money in endless ongoing treatment for disease. I do tend to point out that at all these conferences. They leave the lecture hall and they literally enter a marketplace immediately. That's how all of them are set up. So that you are funneled directly into the place where you buy things you will hear people with a scientific specialty in one field claiming expertise in another one of the people at the autism one conference who now claims that pesticides cause autism like. That's not her background. She's a computer scientist But she's very smart. She's clearly very smart but she doesn't actually know what she's talking about here. Yeah but nonetheless. It invests her words like a level of authority. I think that they have a sense that the people selling things to them. There are easier to connect with on an individual level than this concept of Big Pharma. Because one thing that happens at these conferences like autism. One is that these anti vaccine doctors come and give these parents as much time as they need. They make a literal direct personal connection with them and then they try to sell them something. That's very effective. Especially if you're somebody who maybe. Your kid got a really difficult diagnosis. You haven't had enough time with a specialist. You don't really feel like you have a safety net because our safety net in this country in general is very bad and especially for health is incredibly bad so if you come up against someone who is claiming to really be able to give you something and provide you with care and time and what feels like compassion than you're you're much more likely to buy what they're selling a shortlist of what they're selling hyperbaric oxygen chambers. But not the kind you'd find in a hospital more like the DIY ones. I saw at the clinic. Dangerous Drugs that remove heavy metals from the blood neuro feedback machines and a bleach drinking regimen. Seriously and then less scary sounding but still dangerous products like this one that Bonnie Patent of truth in advertising went after one of them is actually the first case that we brought and it was against a supplement called speak and this supplement was really incredible. you give it to your autistic child and within you know a very small amount of time Your child will start being able to speak again. You know and Tell Mom and dad that you know they love you and so on and so forth So that was actually the first case that we ever brought and You know I'm happy to say that Not only did the FTC go after them but we also complained to the European counterpart where they were selling and Portugal And they had to take down those claims there too So what was speak? So it is a suppleme- liquid supplement and You know while that you would give your children. It's mostly made up of vitamins. But it has a really high dose of Vitamin E. That we consulted with an expert on that could actually be harmful to children a lot of times. You know we see. This was berry susceptible populations right people That have been given very you know scary and terrifying diagnosis whether it be cancer or Fibromyalgia or ADHD. You know the you know Parkinson's Alzheimer's The list goes on and on and and they're being told these hard cold facts by medical healthcare professionals And and consumers I think are desperate to find something that will help or or or even prevent The onset of of you know horrible. Diagnoses Ooh Alternative Therapies are being sold cure or prevent a whole host of elements. And they're sold at conferences all over the world including one called conscious life here in Los Angeles which Anna attended. It's a big sort of new age conference that has sort of an equal focus on wellness and also through like more esoteric claims about angels and after lives in. Ufo's sometimes people like George. Noory speak like a big figure in the UFO movement. It's really fun. actually But so while I was there the last time I was there. There was a group that leads cancer tours to Mexico To clinics traffic in non FDA approved cancer treatments And there were several people selling colloidal silver which is obviously a big serve longtime feature of the Wellness Natural Movement. I me Jane. I'm personally acquainted with COLLOIDAL silver because my grandmother loves it. It's just tiny pieces of silver suspended in a liquid usually water and according to old texts and what I'd call folklore it's an anti microbial and anti viral agent. It seriously. Dangerous to ingest. But that doesn't stop grandma. Ruth people will claim that you can put it on skin to heal cuts and stuff and that's probably harmless somewhat but there's a lot of evidence that taking it internally it can cause liver and vision problems in new blue there's a there's a guy who famously was extremely blue who appeared on TV a lot from that. I yeah what the fuck his name. This is Paul Caras on son. Who's fourteen years ago? Ordinary looking man with fair skin and freckles. Now when he walks down the street people stare in disbelief because he is blue. So how did this happen all started? When I saw an ad in a magazine it was for a colloidal. Silver Generator because you thought it was going to do what for you? I had no idea. Let Me Stop. You right here. Duct what is he talking about this ailment? That makes you and I'm going to call it that because you're through and through below it's not just on the surface as called. Jira and what ended up happening is the blue gets into your cells the silver you basically tattooed your entire body with the Silver GonNa save me a lot of tattoo parlor. Paul Corazon died in two thousand thirteen of a stroke about five years. After that appearance on Oprah and it seemed like she and Dr Oz were not endorsing his use of colloidal silver. Dr Oz did go on a few years later to have one paltrow on a show promoting the stuff so who knows what to believe. It's important to point out that lake. The sort of natural health and supplement industry is a big feature on both the right and left so like Alex. Jones Started selling supplements and that is how he made his money. You know like this is not just a right or left thing. This is a seems to be a particular mania. That kind of engulfs all of us. Yeah something that I think about a lot. When I listened Alex Jones. He talks all the time of being under threat. By these malign outside influences and seen in that context supplements are way to sort of shore up your body and prevent it from being as susceptible to these malign outside influences rate talking about a bowl of what everybody's talking about internally is what to do in case it spreads in the United States. And that's have a plan to get out of a well populated area you know. Have some lands somewhere? You know they were worried at possibly. The borders would be closed which I don't know if that's really going to happen if they wanted to spread. What are you doing specifically for yourself? What I'm doing is I have a place to go this kind of close to a national force where I could just get out of there. I have clean water over. There have claimed food. I have cleaned seeds to grow my own stuff. I mean I have masks that I can use but I have a good supply of iodine. Have a good supply silver over there. You know I've got The DNA force to protect myself to protect against free radical damage. I think for a lot of people who feel a sense of persistent like sickness or disorder. It's because they feel like they are under attack by these large institutions that they don't have a lot of control over lake big Pharma and so it's sort of natural to me first of all they're constantly trying to fix it but secondly that there are also constantly finding new things that are wrong You know because when you talk about sort of an enemy as big and overarching as big Pharma. Like it's not surprising that you'll feel like it's eating into every aspect of your life. One thing I think a lot about with conspiracy communities in general is that and you know alternative communities of any kind is that they give people shape and meaning and purpose and community where they didn't maybe previously feel like they had it and I think especially with wellness and health claims Having a diagnosis gives your life a narrative and seeking out wellness pursuing health. Gives you a way to organize your life? I do not think that people want to be sick by any means but I think that maybe in some ways the pursuit of wellness or the feeling of perpetual disorder. That you're trying to fix gives people a sense of meaning you are going to get a condi- or you're going to have illnesses and a they you don't get to decide. For example there are some illnesses. That are more prevalent in women than men right. You don't decide which genes you're born with and so you might just have just the luck of the draw that you're gonNA. Yeah that's terrifying. Isn't it like the sense of of sickness as being fundamentally random? Something is devastating as cancer. It's not as terrifying as thinking. I have any control over it. Yeah I thought I had control over it then I would be walking around in terror because I I would know that. There's an endless list of things I should do. You know what I mean. Yeah I mean I think you're tapping into a feeling that a lot of people have everyday of their lives and I think there's a vast industry that draws on these things. There is a market in telling people that you might be sick and that constant vigilance of your physical body is the only thing standing between you and the gaping maw of the grave right. Yeah I'm recording. This on my phone from the hospital came into the hospital last night. Four days ago I started getting a rash on my face and my chest and then speaking of the gaping maw the grave. I never expected that. During the course of our reporting I'd stare into it because of the Anti Vaccine Movement. Let me explain in October of last year. Twenty nineteen I got sick. It started with a rash on my chest which spread to my legs and arms. Then I got a fever aches and chills and then my skin started to feel like it was burning off of my body. I went to my regular doctor where they got. I was having an allergic reaction to something. Sent me across the street to the pharmacy where I threw up while waiting for them to fill a prescription for a steroid to calm the rash. Later that day lying in bed with ice packs covering my body I truly thought I was dying and finally went to the Er where they diagnosed me with a severe case of influenza B in addition to the rash and admitted me overnight. The next morning a doctor came into examine me and because of my fever and the rash. He told me I'd be moving into a negative airflow room because get this. It looked like I might have the measles. I Shit you not it. Turns out you can't test for measles if you've ever been vaccinated against it because the test looks for measles antibodies in your blood which look the same whether they're result of the vaccine or from the active virus also. The measles vaccine is hundred percent effective in fact. Even if you've been inoculated you still have a one in thirty chance of contracting the disease if you're exposed to it which is why we all need to be vaccinated. The doctor asked if I'd traveled recently and I said Yeah just two weeks prior I'd flown through. Lax that sealed my fate. I spent three days in the hospital while we waited for the symptoms to either get worse and confirmed that I had the measles or get better which they eventually did. I spent three days without my daughter and was billed over twenty thousand dollars by the hospital. But this isn't about me. It's about a larger issue that the antitax movement has created and then we didn't use to have according to the. Cdc WE ARATU gated measles in the year. Two thousand right around the same time. The Anti Vaccine Movement was really getting its footing last year. There were almost thirteen hundred cases in thirty one states before nine hundred sixty three when the measles vaccine came out it was a thing that everyone got and it killed her on five hundred people and hospitalized about fifty thousand every year. Imagine that coming back. Fifty thousand people being hospitalized and quarantined from their families because they might have a disease that we are advocated decades ago except for a few extremist groups decided that they'd prefer that to the slight chance that their child is born autistic. Which by the way I'll say for the thousandth time has nothing to do with vaccines nor is it curable nor is it worse than death next time on the dream. It's our season finale. You won't want to miss it. The dream is a production of little everywhere and stitcher written and reported by me and Dan. Gallucci editing by Peter Clowney and Tracey Samuelson producing by harassment. And Stephanie Kariuki. The dream is executive produced by me. Dan Gucci Peter Clowney and Chris. Bannon are mixing engineers. Are Casey Holford and Brendon Burns? Rate Review and subscribe wherever. You listen thank you.

Andrew Wakefield measles Big Pharma United States Anna Drug Company fever facebook symptoms autism Vermont Ibuprofen Mumps Dr Oz Royal Free Hospital Alex Jones Wakefield
Google Accused of Trust Demolition - DTH

Daily Tech Headlines

05:14 min | 2 years ago

Google Accused of Trust Demolition - DTH

"Uh-huh. These are the daily tech headlines for Wednesday November fourteenth twenty eighteen I'm Tom Merritt. Samsung says it's forthcoming x nine series ninety eight twenty chip has a neural processing unit that seven times faster than the one on the ninety eight ten which is used in some models of the galaxy S nine right now. Samsung also claims the ninety eight twenty delivers twenty percent better conventional single core performance and fifteen percent multi-core as well. As a forty percent rise in power efficiency, the ninety eight twenty GP uses arm's Mali seventy six cores the ex ninety eight twenty we'll be ready for mass production by the end of the year. Alphabet owned deep mines health division, including the stream app for assisting doctors and nurses will be transferred to alphabet own Google's Google health division. The deep mind health division has partnerships with ten and h s hospitals in the UK to process medical data and the stream app from deep mind ran into controversy over its use of one point six million patients data in Royal free hospital in London without the patient's knowledge. Lauren privacy experts. Julia Powell's pointed out that deep mind promise to never connect people's intimate identifiable health, data to Google accounts products or services and deemed the transfer trust demolition deep. Mine told the BBC that patient data remains under our NHS partners. Strict control. Microsoft released its windows ten October twenty eighteen update for the second time after fixing bugs that deleted data accidentally Microsoft released the fixes more than a month ago, but took time to test them before releasing to the public. Mozilla has published a guide called privacy not included that evaluates the security of popular holiday gift items. Thirty three of the seventy products in the guide carry a Mozilla badge for meeting minimum security standards things like encryption automatic security updates end requiring a change of the default. Password. Product descriptions, also include things like whether a device can use its camera microphone or location services to track. You. Spotify launched in thirteen new markets in the Middle East and North Africa bringing its total number of markets to seventy eight launch also brings a fully Arabic experience, including language support as well as playlists like top Arabic hits. Ford WalMart and post mates are partnering to test delivery of goods using Thomas vehicles in Miami Dade County, Florida for it also has tests underway with dominos. And some other local businesses in the area. Argo is developing and testing the used in the cars it also has tests underway in Detroit and Pittsburgh with plans to test its autonomous vehicles in Washington DC early next year. Intel announced the neural compute stick to or NCIS to. It's a thumb drive. With a self contained neural network running on a move videos myriad, X vision processing unit or VP you. It lets users train machine learning systems locally on any Lennox system with a USB three port without needing to use the cloud NCIS to sells for one hundred dollars from Intel. Ten cent beat analysts expectations in the third quarter raising profits thirty percent revenue rose twenty four percent, though that was the slowest growth in more than three years for tencent advertising revenue accounts for about a fifth of ten cents total revenue and rose by forty seven percent mobile gaming growth was better than expected. Given a halt in approvals of new titles by China's gaming. Regulator payment cloud services helped ten cents other revenue category rise sixty nine percent. Techcrunch passes along a report from the star that Netflix is testing a mobile only plan in Malaysia the new tier cost seventeen ring it that's about four dollars. US that's half the price of the previous cheapest basic tier which sold four thirty three ring. It's net. Flicks confirmed that the trial is running in a few countries. Verizon announced its capital expenditures would decline and deployment of infrastructure would remain the same sprint Verizon and AT and T have all reduced their overall numbers for twenty eighteen the carriers. Attribute the declining investment to timing and more efficient technologies like virtualization. Finally, laurie. Al launched a battery free wearable called my skin track. UV that measures your exposure to as you might have guessed ultra-violet radiation as well as pollution pollen and humidity it uses NFC and you're nearby smartphone. Descend status updates and store up to three months of data. You can buy the my skin track UV device from apple stores for sixty dollars. For more discussion of the news of the day. Be sure to subscribe to daily news show dot com. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next time.

Google Samsung Mozilla Julia Powell Intel Microsoft Tom Merritt NCIS Verizon Mali Royal free hospital apple Spotify UK NHS Middle East tencent London
Annie McCall, Maternity Trailblazer

The Door History Podcast

26:46 min | 10 months ago

Annie McCall, Maternity Trailblazer

"The dog well. This is Leeann August Anderson. I interested in this episode of this about childbirth. You as being a mom myself oversleeping through the experience and he was very pleasant but a coups wasn't always like thought of danger in yes childbirth on has been in history and major killer of women and middle of the nineteenth century. Not that number. Go between forty and sixty women in every thousand with die giving birth it was. It was very dangerous so dangerous that in the UK Church of England. I should say there was included in the book. A service for women who had recently given birth and had come to church with church ING the first time. Get come to church after chopper. Oh really was a thing to do. It was entered blessing exactly and included. Thanks to God for quote the safe deliverance and preservation from the great dangers of childhood. And what were the dangers common? Apparently something called pyrex here. I'm not adopt not being to try and define that. But essentially it could lead to sepsis rate fast acting killer hemorrhage uncontrolled bleeding convulsions or attempts here allows people now know about pre ECLAMPSIA and accounts here. But the killer was illegal abortion. Yeah those women who were seeking illegal. Abortion had illegal. Abortion obviously didn't go to hospitals so that's something to ban all abortions. Were illegal really much of a choice. No no indeed indeed. They were extremely. They were big killer now. Talk too many doctors trying to improve this and amongst those was amazing woman called any of a call who treated pregnant women in her clinics in south London and she actually invest she. She built hospital got the funds to build a hospital in Stockholm but going back to the mortality rate and remove the non life if you take out of the equation us when she was working maternal deaths in England of wealth with running. It's about five thousand very different to the forty or sixty two thousand. We were talking about earlier. But so if you think keep five or six per thousand in your she managed to get it down to one point six five in every thousand remarkable. How how did she do this? Well we I talked to Professor Susan to find out before I recorded the interview with Susan. Purely on the life and work of maternity pioneer any mccoo leaner and I went down to the old hospital to take a look and continue our conversation here in any McCormick place in stockwell. There's not much left of the regional hospital. Now he's been turned into luxury flats. Of course Not Very lovely ones. But mind you. They didn't it. It had been closed for a very long time when the Convert the hospital. Yes yes it was a decade. Uh-huh was falling bits and Occupied by some very interesting artists. Who kept the building actually standing up these loads of work just to keep it here with us and then it was sold off to developers and here we are with the flats and has been renovated. Your I mean you you can you can former glory. You can see the various foods and you can imagine like hospital windows And hospital. The the facade is really impressive Founded of close by Amicable Donald Anatomical and before that she had operated a number of maternity facilities for women in this area and she was a real trailblazer when it came to maternity health. What I think is extraordinarily is of course it's amazing. She did this practice and she qualified as a doctor. She'll be two women in. All of this is amazing. Sort of CLINICO medical thing actually to raise money to build the hospital yes. He's also extraordinarily Xinich. She has she had some wealthy sponsors. Yeah there was a woman called Lady Bielby. You contribute to denote. Yes Yes lady. Bilby did did give major donations in the puppet gave donations. It was one of those. She was sort of an internationalist as well because of course UK had a lot of Colon that point. Yes and and didn't she have trained women from other countries as well absolutely. She took many from West Africa. She said if you can do the job. That's the job she didn't hold with any of that. That must have been quite. I think it was. I possibly. Yes as an institution. It probably was. I mean there were people from overseas qualifying doctors. Yeah but I think she I think because she made it clear about it that was probably what Martorell and she only trained women she did. She only trained women Nothing but the best was good enough for the women who came to her for help and guidance and she spared neither herself nor those who worked with her in her insistence on service as the unvarying. Watchword we're talking about Dr Anne Makul who was a pioneer in maternity care in London at the end of the nineteenth century and into the twentieth century. I'm here with Susan piddly. Who is a professor of Obstetrics Susan? Tell us a bit more about your background. I'M A fourth generation Dr. My parents came over from Ireland at the beginning of the NHL. In the middle of the century and I trained in obstetrics women's health and I worked locally as a consultant to guys in San Thomas Hospitals before I retired so we'll come to the DOOR SEASON. I think maybe we should start with some key. Facts about this remarkable. Dr Anne McCall. She was born on the twenty third of September eighteen. Fifty nine at wally range in Manchester too. She wasn't from London. She was the middle of five children and her father died of. Tb when she was four which may have inspired her to go into medicine later in her life she also had a brother who had spinal TV not. Her mother was very keen on education. And as a widow she needed the support of her brother and in McCall's very opposed but his mother insisted that they moved to Germany for the sake of her children's education so they went to go which is near Hammer and actually had mother left all of her three daughters there to complete their teenage patient. Did of course and Anne went to Cheltenham Ladies' college where she matriculated and then she went to medical school in Paris. But a friend of the family Elizabeth Garrett Anderson who's very well known in her own right for establishing a women's Hospital in London she advised and his mother to bring her home and senator instead the London. School of Medicine we Susan. I understand grew in to being Royal Free Hospital in North London. But that's all I women would qualify and I was very posted about winning when all the other medical schools would well anyways obviously extremely bright and academic and. She did very well wherever she went. She part of her training. She did three months at Queen Charlotte's hospital and other maternity hospitals and she also that she then went to Dublin and she qualified the Takata special certificate in midwifery which was beginning will which was obviously then a subject which greatly interested her and she finished off with a qualification in Switzerland where she became a doctor of Medicine at the age of Twenty. Six at the age normally qualify. Now Twenty about six straight from school they can come out about twenty three twenty four but it's not uncommon and certainly in America where it's a graduate program of graduates it's mid twenty s say. Well it still seems quite young to me to start on such a responsible job but anyway she. She moved to Dodge in south London and she went immediately into practicing medicine amongst the community most ordinary people many of them extremely poor and she she worked with a clinic in stockwell in fact They operated out of a mission hall. They were seeing people who who would really subsistence. As a very poverty stricken level inch work the made deep concerned about the high maternal death rates that she was seeing and she very soon established her own school of Midwifery in her own home on tap from route. One six five now. She also with in collaboration with other people. She established as outpatients department so she could see women in their pregnancies and at the age of thirty eight thousand nine. She and her cousin. Marian Ricci opened the Clapham Maternity Hospital author installed call so she achieved great deal quite early in life and she went on for a very long time shouldn't die until she was ninety and she retired when she was eight to says she really had a long career in medicine. She achieved some remarkable things mentioned Elizabeth Garrett Anderson at in fact animal cool with one of the first fifty women qualifies doctors in. This country was quite exceptional for women to be a doctor. Absolutely it was a very rare. Nevertheless this is still well ahead of women lawyers in letting women into the professions. I think health may have been more obvious that because of women's socal modest day that the healthcare of women needs to be looked after by witnesses midwives and then this role doctors so I think a lot of of the very earliest women. Doctors were partners setting women-only services and providing medical care for women even though I don't think any specialize assume much as she did that early on she. She seems to have how quick deal of forward thinking about how she wanted things to go and she had quite a strong personality very pleasant personality but she was quite strong minded. I think we'll come to what she was like a bit later at this time as I understand it. There wasn't a great deal of understanding of women's bodies or if. I say that's not quite that. Women's bodies through the centuries had not been understood it in the way. Perhaps it men's bodies had there was a quick deal of confusion about menstruation and pregnancy itself vaccination as well because it was. It's the beginning of life but there was women's bodies were difficult to examine because of modesty concerns and the standard seems to have been to look at men's bodies first and then women are the exceptions. That might think that's probably still became. I think we've long lead legacy of understanding that it's absolutely normal to have cycles. It's absolutely normal to leak fluids like breast milk and We've long suffered being the second sex with separate bodies jawline frighten and as you say the roots of that might well be partly in the difficulty of understanding Scientific advances and how they were done But in medicines got along uncomplicated. Patriarchal and sexist history. Like many others on a Friday but learning a bit more about not to me and the and the Nazi salutes. That was a bit difficult and the level of education was for everybody was very low. There was always you know. These ideas of the wandering womb is hysteria. I love and and clearly in the major were prophylactic so obvious but mostly contraception with through breastfeeding continual repeated practices did know this connection between Saxon pregnancy. And not having menstruation that that was very taboos. Wilson we can't we can't put our selves back into the mindset of those days very difficult yes but but anima cool had running an all female establishment nurses midwives and doctors were all women they didn't have to think about constraints of modesty so much from normal manners a and they would have acquired a great deal of education shared amongst themselves and in their an passed on through through their trainees in a way perhaps mixed establishments so male establishments with civility that it would have been very powerful atmosphere of a leader who is a teacher A highly admired and who had a vision and who did introduce high standards of diets and education than cleanliness. I think it would have been a very inspiring place to have trying to work. Yes and she had a obviously an inspirational character and people who trained with her and worked with felt huge affection for her she. She may have looked a little bit. Formidable she she was dark clothing quite sort of masculine style very plain but she she was also very kind and humane and she seems to be treated her patients with a great deal of compassion and tolerance at a time. When for instance unmarried women sometimes turned away from from establishments and I think she would. She seems to have been very humane she had she suffered early on with. The illnesses and death would have seen the difficulty. Her mother had financially and I think she clearly saw each woman as a person their rights and was compassionate and to be to have the attitude. Choose that was welcoming inclusive and would give support and encouragement to women through midwifery which we know. Nowadays we know that continuity of care and kindness goes a long way to even preventing premature in making birth better. I think she'd have. She felt the virtuous circle that she was creating not what we now call non-judgmental approaches to patients and seeing much women suffer through the health and BMC. Something about it and be committed to entirely to win. It means. It's it is it is. It is remarkable but this was also she was. She was there at the time of the suffragettes shoots a suffrage. She was yes. Well suffer. Gist I would suffer. Just yes yes I mean she. She stood up for women in lots of different ways. And as you say she saw them as individuals and she she was she educated them so she developed printed materials for them in language that they could understand so not condescending to them in using medical language for instance but advising them how to eat well and exercise well and prepare themselves for birth births in in a healthy way that we would recognize us a good a good way to live. Perhaps at the time was always pointed out to pregnant women and maybe she saw more about I mean she would have been growing up as an adult just when the marriage when this property policy she clearly saw herself as an equal some deserving of educate would have and if she has self understood that it was and then wanted it for her class sisters or women. It would be very easy and you can see why she wouldn't be married. She was just devoted to a absolutely she was people. She was the pro- Proper Old Star public servant. She she was and she should not only did maternity coverage she also careful wounded soldiers from the first World War and she developed a regime for treating speculate so she was she. She spread her interests around but our focus was on women. I think probably she could see that a vulnerable to to abuse poverty and to just over work she must have seen women almost. I have too many children and absolutely well. And whatever she did there was a contribution to make that. Matambo mortality down. Yes breaks dot terrible intergenerational cycle of extreme poverty and destitution and orphans and so She she would see that and again. I think you put out the disabled soldiers that she would see humanity with the people who come for themselves. Get Work You. You can't you are distinguished. She asked people to pay probably action. So you also take the active universalism. Yes which again something that preceded the. Nhl that she about soul. Yes yes you. Any had a few months before she died at the grand old age of ninety yes she also ran her hospital on long lines. I suppose in a way she was a sort of second from its nightingale when it came to eternity hospitals. Now they're wrong because she she was very clear about how she wanted. The operate. Not The operation the management of the hospital to go fresher cleanliness and ten or twelve days. Bedrest for women. After they had the babies number swimming would have at home. I understand at this time as well and those who did go to Amazon hospitals quite often. They we the some of the disasters but because Dr move for the more trade to the bedside and delivering patients and the the great streptococcal fevers of course Purple Post Natal infections and Sepsis and death but very high those writing in the hospital `institution so she I think although we wouldn't want people lying in bed for nowadays. We hope that that they had to make sure that she was very Keaton. They would have been much younger and thinner the Mondays as well these young women and and probably up in about but I think that kind of sense of caring and rushing into support. The mothers by helping with the the daily living in that very caring thing sets up the new mother for her children. She gets a break from her domestic duties. So it was a concept of convalescence has vanished yesterday and I think if they had small wards with four beds that would have been a lot of community and experienced mothers would be talking to new mountain giving them Sapporo yes And not only the midwives but I think those women help women in Labor. We've lost lots of that with smaller families. Mr Mothers and thing how were they? How were the maternal mortality rate so low because it was watchful waiting judicious non-interference we call a? Yeah such also very much. Midwifery with women So she was absolutely the opposite of some of the day's essentially obstetrician and she certainly would not allow any unqualified person to do any of operations any procedures. issues she. She made sure that they were properly trained before they did anything. We did. A few few forceps Leeann from time to time bitten bit. I think she'd have been one of those the Cautious dodgers. They will look away. We talk about good surgeon news after Better surge went to operate the message not operate so I think she sounds leave things alone. let nature take as much as possible but obviously would have by the ante natal care which we now know is what is the most one of the most vital things to get tunnel targets at tre. Dow. I think she would have been doing that. Which was yes. Patrick as well. Yes now as we've discussed she. She lived for some time in retirement. Eighty two and she left a fantastic legacy but not only in the building of Clapham maternity hospital she elevated training standards as we've discussed and she she developed this practice which is quite a broad view. She covered lots of things in her practice that that were an improvement on before she did. Tb treatment. She was also involved in the central midwives board which I didn't know whether it's still cool that but I think the structure the administrative structure of qualification is also important and she was certainly founding member of that. Yeah so she really achieved a huge amount. It's a shame that more people don't know about her so quite pleased that we're talking about we lose women's histories yes. I would hope that somewhere. There's a plaque a blue plaque somewhere. But but yet to come. But I think there's a photograph that we've just had our second female president ever Royal Cultural I one longtime Dame Hilda Leslie. Reagan put up a loss of photographs of great women of substance conical. John Pretty sure new cool was wanted us. That would that would be a good thing. We are at the end of this absurd of the do. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on your chosen podcast platform. We are on social media. We're on facebook and on twitter where we're at the door. Podcast all details of our episodes on our website. The door put. Costa Could also sign up from newsletter.

London Clapham maternity hospital Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Leeann August Anderson stockwell NHL ECLAMPSIA Dr Anne McCall And hospital Professor Susan UK Church of England Royal Free Hospital School of Medicine maternal death UK Susan piddly West Africa England
Controlling Covid-19: lockdown, or let rip?

The Naked Scientists

1:01:00 hr | Last month

Controlling Covid-19: lockdown, or let rip?

"Have you loud and clear? Signs that is to say physics medicine nature. Brain. Hello. Welcome to the naked scientists. This is the show where we bring you the latest breakthroughs in science technology and medicine with Chris Smith and with me either Higginbotham this week news of the people catching coronavirus on purpose would you wait out the pandemic in an old nuclear bunker and the good news that lullabies sent babies to sleep regardless of what language therein plus lockdown or let rip what is the best way to control the coronavirus pandemic opinions divided, and we'll be debating the issue with fought leading experts. The naked scientists podcast is powered by fast DOT CO DOT UK. At a time when most of us are doing our best to avoid catching grown virus, it seems surprising that they will soon be some individuals in the UK getting infected on purpose. But that is the goal of a new study announced this week by UK scientists who supported by thirty four million pound investment from the British government. Setting out PORTA called challenge studies volunteers isolated in a laboratory be exposed to the SAWS Covy to virus that causes covid nineteen. So researchers can study how the body responds to the infection. The initiative will help we hope to speed along the development of safe and effective vaccines. Chris Chu is leading the project. This is likely to be the first time fats anyone has. Developed, a human challenge model facades covy to. Human, challenged muddles a special kinds of clinical study where we deliberately infect volunteers with a virus to look at how they respond to the infection who are you going to recruit Immediate top priority is safety. So it's really important to us that the participants in this study, all at as low risk as possible of developing more severe symptoms. So that means that we'll be focusing on people who are young age eighteen thirty and he will essentially completely healthy people who have no. Other medical conditions such as diabetes, high blood pressure anything wrong with that lungs or their heart. And when you do these studies, how will they done? How do you? Get the people where do you put them and how do you infect them? We recruit from the general population and we go through a very complex process of working out whether they are completely healthy. Then we will bring them in to In this case, the Royal Free Hospital in North London they have a unit there especially built to have the highest quality of air handling which means the infected people who are staying with us will not be at risk of transmitting the virus to people outside. When these volunteers come in, we will take some virus and we'll drop tiny drops in their noses at that point they may or may not become infected, but we will keep them with us in the unit full at least two weeks to monitor them stay developed infection and then as they get better. And how are you gonNA study them what salsa samples we be connecting, and what are you hoping to learn by doing this? So one of the major strengths of these types of studies human challenge studies is that we can measure immunity and inflammation in these volunteers before they get the infection during the course of their infection and as they get better to better. Understand how their immune system is is responding to the infection and what's really unique about these studies is that you can look immune responses even before infection has got going. So in any kind of normal study, you would only gape detect if people were infected by their own set of symptoms, and so at that point, you're already five days with more into the infection whereas. We know exactly when they received the virus and so we can start looking to see the development of immune responses straightaway and potentially the immune responses which may help protect them from more severe infection. How do you know how much virus to expose an individual to to guarantee that they're standing good chance of it and presumably there are some people who it tight more virus to infect than others how do you make sure that safe but also informative because people have made a case for perhaps the amount Of virus were exposed to at the onset of infection makes a difference to my clinical outcome. Yes. You're absolutely rights and I think part of that is based on our experience. But obviously, this is a a brand new virus and we do exactly how much virus is going to be needed. Say What we're planning on doing starting with an extremely low dose if those first few people don't develop any infection, then we will increase to the next level. We'll gradually do odds until we reach an optimal dose. Given the people who tend to have a problem with this infection are not young people. Is they're not quite a significant limitation to this study because you're studying people in whom you checked and for very good reason, they will just recover. May We not therefore be completely missing the thing we really need to capture which is what happens when people don't end up with that trivial infection that's completely valid points but I think there are some really unique strengths to human challenge. You can really studied the immune response in university cly detailed ways, and we need to understand those to make better vaccines make better treatments. The other application is in vaccine development and drug developments because you can do a study with perhaps India people and you will get a very early indication whether or not your vaccine does toll and if it does nothing tool, then you might decide to deprioritize it, and if it does really well, then you can really put the loss of extra effort into it and you can compare different tax scenes in a short amount of time to be able to to triage those. When does it kick off? So we'll be starting recruitment quite soon within the next few weeks we hope. And then if all goes well, then we should be inoculated from the first volunteers. At the beginning of January twenty twenty, one saute stuff isn't it Kristie there now recently, the World Health Organization announced the results of a clinical trial called solidarity that had investigated the effectiveness of the drug Ram desert for treating correct for treating covid nineteen. The trial results suggests that this antiviral drug has little or no impact on a patient's chances of surviving the onus following that announcement Arou- was blown up with the drugs developers Gilead Sciences who cite the use of remedies in the apparently successful treatment of Donald Trump, and also some other smaller trials that also appeared to show that Remm desert does make a difference. Independent statistician. Shapiro though he was hired by the WHO scrutinized their results and he's dismissed Gillian's criticism saying that the results are reliable. So where does this leave us? Then we'll one possibility is that we might actually be treating the wrong groups of people used in the right set of patients at the right time says Harvard's Roger Shapiro, it might actually be quite effective. I think room desert, a goldilocks truck, and what I mean by that is people who are to the disease or don't have a very serious disease. We won't see ineffective desert because almost everybody will get better in that group too late in the illness and among those with very severe disease who are requiring mechanical ventilation those people we're not seeing enough after desert you're either because they're at a point of illness where a drug that targets the virus is not really helping them and what they really need is steroid to lower their immune response to the virus. But that Middle Group those who are on oxygen, and early in the disease, they're the ones who are in that. Sweet spot where you're deserve year can benefit them. Do you think that's what Donald Trump did? Well, because he was goal tat very early on illness. I think Donald Trump was the ideal person to get this drug because he was very early in his illness and he did appear to have a drop in his oxygenation suggesting that he was heading down toward the more severe illness. I don't know that this is why Donald Trump got better quickly because he also received several other agents including experimental antibody that may have benefited him. But I do think that he was right in that goldilocks zone of who might benefit from him. Denser. Do. We know. Then who the the right people, the right goldilocks individuals are we got some insights into what the right time is to intervene and in whom now with this. I think we really are learning that now I think that it's very clear late in the disease mechanically ventilated patients that ship has sailed and they are not benefiting from this drug. It's very clear that those who are hospitalized and receiving oxygen but not yet mechanical ventilation. Those are the people that are definitely benefitting, and in that group those who are the closest to their symptom onset, they seem to benefit the most and into best trial of this, there was a threefold reduction in mortality in that subset. Putting together them when a person catches corona virus and we intervene with desert at the right time in the right person what do you think is going on the means that they don't then turn into I knew severely on well. It gets a little complicated because the people who poorly with. Kobe nineteen are those whose immune systems cannot lock onto and control the virus and so at seven to ten days into the illness, there's a subset of people who will basically their immune system is still calling for help and saying we are not handling this. We are not fixing this send more cells, more reinforcements and when those reinforcements are for whatever reason unable to lock onto the virus those are the ones who really get into trouble with this disease and at that point in the illness, it's too late for the antiviral to work. Because, at that point, the immune system has gone into overdrive and it's really causing the harm that we see in many of our hospitalized intimated patients. So by intervening early in the right person, you basically stop the production of virus before it reaches some kind of critical threshold and drives the immune system into this sort of tailspin from which it's very hard for it to pull out, and it's actually the immune response that goes onto in a person who's GonNa to become civilian well, kill the patient. Yes that's right and I think the reason that we see the benefit of the Rim desert into hospitalize patients who are receiving low oxygen is that those are the patients who might be heading in that direction and if we go too far back into the community, we give rim desert everybody. Well, we're going to be giving a lot of. Desert because most people's immune systems are able to lock on. The virus by targeting those admitted to the hospital often because their oxygen levels are below ninety, four percent, they're on the path towards that. Simulated Immune response that causes people so much harm and if we're at that junction and Rendez of your can help a certain subset of them kind of handle the virus tamp down that stimulation early enough in the process then I think that is the reason why in that subset we see a mortality benefit from using this drug. Russia Shapiro on what he dubs the goldilocks drug REMM desert. So let's if it crops up in the clinic a bit more often. Why do kittens puppies and human animals play from pets tumbling with each other? To Team Sports. Join Me Casey hailer as I find out why locking about is so important a health. Check out naked near science on the naked scientists website or wherever you get your podcasts. Call. Coming up the people taking refuge from the pandemic in nuclear bunkers back in April ucla daisy. Fund court joined us to talk about her covid nineteen social study that she was running checking in weekly on more than seventy thousand people across the UK we've been looking particularly at how people is depression. Levels are affected during the pandemic and we know that prior to lockdown coming in a lot of people very worried about the virus. That this negative effect on people's mental health since lockdown came and we've seen that this seems to have stabilized lots of people. We've even seen some slight decreases in things by. It's promising to see this many people managing redact. Six months have now passed daisy is back to update us on how people are feeling now, especially as we head into winter and what some calling the second wave welcome back daisy. So are people still feeling okay or we Las Vegas Eight? We've seen that many people's mental health is actually improved quite a bit. So we found that anxiety and depression decreased as lockdown rental and especially is lockdown was east over the summer. But actually as we're now heading into a period where cases arising again. We have seen that many people are starting to experience high levels of anxiety and depression again, and at the same time, there's a small percentage of people who haven't actually benefited from that recovery periods that mental health has stayed battle even got worse since April that's hard to hear what about those with mental health conditions like severe depression or bipolar disorder schizophrenia or eating disorders. We found that people with higher levels of mental health problems prior to the pandemic unfortunately tend to have A. West experience. To typically they've had high levels bags I depression, but we've seen on average the same kinds of patents in the same pattern of decreasing symptoms over the summer as we've seen among the general population. But actually, we've had lots of reports now coming from people with quite specific mental health conditions suggesting that they're actually having a more unique experience in for some people, it seems to got worse whereas others they've actually found that perhaps there prior experience managing a a mental health conditions is to strengthen their ability to cope in stress was. That they were doing more research at the moment to try and unpack why some people with mental health conditions have found things bathroom and some found things where I see. So in pot having already lunch sort of course mechanisms for what you do when you're in a dip, you might now be able to apply them exactly. But then at the same time for other people, they've found that they were they were experiencing high levels of stress day today and therefore experienced with covid nineteen. His felt like it's too much on top to cope with say for them. It's actually made things worse. What about the fact that? Unemployment. Financial. Insert and tease our forecast. How might that change things? I think this is something we should be quite seriously worried about because what we found from my research is that people's About these kinds of adversity whether it's unemployment or financial issues or difficulties in coping with worries about the virus at these worries are actually just as bad for mental health as actually experiencing these things and in particular, we've actually found people who have fewer financial resources are particularly finding this relationship between worrying about potentially facilities and mental health. So this has a big kind of policy implication because it suggests it's not just about bringing in job support schemes are fairly skins safe people last minute it's actually about trying to reassure people weeks or months in advance to stop these adversities building up psychologically and distress of these making people's mental health even worse. And do you ask people in your study? Do you ask them what specifically is worrying them? Is it more generally? How's your mood we depot? So we look at different aspects of mood and mental health but we also look at the fact is it could be worrying people and it seems that some of the most common worries have been about employment on finances. And also actually about code itself and we found that starts lockdown about two thirds of adults worried about the catching cova to becoming seriously. Oh, from it, and we found that that decreased over lockdown and over the summer, but it's been creeping again over the last few weeks. So I think the populations are whole seems to be getting a bit more anxious we head. Into Winter Daisy Franco thank you very much. As we know, the pandemic is changing society drastically and rather than engaging with it some people are choosing to hide and wait out that change whether in the words in their homes all in underground bunkers what is life like in these places and the minds of these people who are cutting themselves off from the world? Bradley Garrett is an ethnographic trying to answer that question. His New Book Bunker recounts his experiences living with these groups. He told Phil Sansom more about them. It's a wide range of people evangelical 's who thought that in order to be raptured, they were going to have to make it through the period of tribulation, and so they were stockpiling for that period of time. Spent time with people from the Church of Latter Day Saints Mormons who were actually not interested in escaping the disaster but going into it. But I also met people who are anarchists and had dropped out of society and we're living off grid communities. We're very focused on sustainable technologies, and then there were some people that kind of had a bit of a harder edge ex-military types who were. Very interested in being able to build defensible architecture to protect themselves and their families. How extreme does this kind of prep yet? I went to one in Kansas builds by an ex government contractor. Now, this is a guy who built bunkers for the government. So he was he was working on those projects. And he decided that he needed his own bunker. So he bought an atlas F, Nuclear Missile Silo from the Federal Government for three hundred thousand dollars. And spent about ten million turning into a subterranean condominium complex. Assault photos of it before I arrive there. But it it really didn't prepare me for the scale of the place and the level of Ambition I. Guess. But. He I mean, he had a shooting range, a rock climbing wall swimming pool, an Education Center, a library, and of course, space for seventy five people, and after spending ten million building this I call it a go scraper it's like an inverted skyscraper. He sold every single one of those condos inside there in made about twenty million in profit. And he's now using that to build a second silo. and. I, I don't see any end to this. There's a thriving market of people who have millions of dollars of disposable income and are perfectly willing to spend one and a half to three million to buy into the ultimate security something that was only available to governments a few decades ago. Is it like a prison down there. It's it's not like a prison at all I know it just because it's underground and it sounds like it's windowless I the only thing I can imagine. There are windows. I'm putting windows in scare quotes here. Because they're vertically installed led screens and what he's done is he's he pipes in four K. feed from outside of the bunker so that if you're standing in in a living room. And one of the condos you have a very real sense that you're looking outside. He's also installed lighting that emulates the Circadian Rhythm. So you feel a sense of the sun coming up and down, which is really important if you're going to maintain psychological equilibrium, some these are strategies that learn during the Cold War. For instance, there's a particular color of green paint that is somehow soothing to the human mind. It's the same color paint that you see in hospitals very often that color paint was also used on the walls to keep people in a calm state and he he was very explicit Larry Hall, the the Guy who built the condom was very explicit in telling me that. For him, the technical barriers to building the Condo were not actually very challenging the challenge was maintaining social order and making sure that people's psychological needs were were satisfied and you know having gone through this pandemic and and all of us having to suffer self-isolation I think we can all understand how important it is that you keep yourself healthy and distracted, and that's precisely what he had built that bunker to do. has anyone who hadn't already before the coronavirus started hunkered down in a bunker somewhere. It's difficult to get a sense of it, but I ran into one statistic. There were three point seven million Americans in two thousand eleven that self identified as peppers. And I had someone getting touch recently from Cornell. University and his new estimate now is that eleven million people Are Seriously prepping in the United States I don't have numbers outside of the country, but that's significant. This is a reflection condonation almost on on society the people no longer have faith. In government and corporations to take care of them. Just incredible that bunke sound significantly more exciting than my house that was broadly Garrett talking on his book bunker, which is available now. and onto something a little bit more soothing. To caring. Hey. Hey. As exhausted parents know at three am it feels like there is nothing more important than soothing a crying baby and a Lullaby can sometimes do the trick and what you were just hearing is a Lullaby from the highland sung in Scots Gaelic incredibly turns out that your baby doesn't have to understand gimmick or even be familiar with the music style to nevertheless find that and songs like it relaxing as meal Tolo and constance Bainbridge happened. Finding we were curious to see if infants are sensitive to Lullaby even if they are not familiar with the culture language that they were produced in. So we wanted to see if listening to these lullabies would relax infants compared to songs that were not lullabies, and that was indeed what we found what age were babies that you're looking at. We looked at babies from the ages of two months up through fourteen months and we did actually. Make sure that we had an even distribution in each age category so that we could examine for age effects which we did not find a super interesting because this suggests that the response to these lullabies is not something that the infants learn during that first year of life but there might actually be some inclination to relax cities from a very early age. We had animated characters, Sydney, songs CD infants that came into lab all of. These songs actually come from the Natural History Song discography fitches from previous research in our lab, and these songs include small-scale societies there really scattered across the world and the songs include these lullabies as well as dance songs, love songs and healing songs me. You also worked on this project. How do you actually collect the data from the babies to see if they were being sued by the by? So when the baby came into the lab? Before we sat down in their seats, watch this little animation and heard these songs we fit them with a little monitor that similar to fit that recorded their heart rate and electric dermal activity, which is this measure of sweat gland activity, which is basically how excited you are, and in real time while listening to the songs, we could track how their heart rate an electric terminal to. In response to those songs, how long were the songs 'cause I would imagine that it would take a few minutes will music to produce a you know a calming or an exciting reaction is that what you found or they just short clips of songs, the clips of size that we used only fourteen seconds each and they alternated pretty rapidly. So in obviously in the real world infants experience of music as much richer, they listen to music for minutes on and in their parents, laps and things, but in order to. Really isolate any possible effect purely musical features might have we chose to sniff down songs about fourteen seconds each and two alternate them just to see the infants were immediately reacted to the musical features and what did you find? There was a main effect that if you compare their heart rates between the lullabies and the non lullabies, we found that the heart rates dropped in response to the lullabies and something similar also in their electric dermal activity where it was lower during the lullabies relative to the novel of Ice. and. You've actually sent me some samples to listen to and these are this is your favorite lullaby. Moore. WHO WHO Who who? It is favor waxing isn't it and then the baby's listened to that and also to this other songs I love. So I think. Anew. La. Yes, satiny sounds passionate. Were you surprised by the results and what might this tell us about how humans actually relate to music I think this result really is quite surprising on the face of it. It might seem pretty obvious that of course. Lulla. visor soothing. But it's actually not at all intuitive that what we as kind of western listeners deemed to be relaxing musical patterns are the same musical patterns that people and other societies would find relaxing. Potentially surprising that even across many different cultures producing vastly different music and other dimensions that these lullabies still have something about them that makes them recognizable. And I think one of the coolest things about this is this may very well suggests it there is actually an evolutionary function to Lullaby. So sometimes, there can be debate over is music justice sort of in words of Steven pinker auditory cheesecake is just something fun that we kind of came up with as a culture or is there actually a purpose to music and maybe by are one of the first links for us to kind of get to that question? Who before the love Song that was actually a? lullaby super relaxing. Maybe I should put that on at night. Take myself to sleep. That was constance Bainbridge and meal Potolo at the Harvard Music Lamp and their paper just been published in nature human behavior. and. If you'd like to catch up with the transcripts and also importantly the references underpinning the stories that we've been discussing this week, you can find both on our website as well as download copies of the program. It's naked scientists dot com. The naked scientists podcast is produced in association with Spitfire Cost. Effective Voice Internet, and the IP engineering services for UK businesses find out how Spitfire can impale your company at Spitfire Dot Coach K.. But right now, though you with your favorite Sancho, that's the naked scientists and this week, the debate, the everyone has an opinion on. We don't want to go back to another national look down. Station do not advocate lockdowns as a primary means of control of this fire. Are Doing Tremendous Dann, Kommt that the virus need short shop circuit breaker across the country. We cannot hold it forever without paying these extreme call. I do not believe that would be the right. Now, worldwide, we estimate there have been close to about a billion corona virus cases. Least one, million people that we know of have lost their lives, some countries, Australia. Being one of them have controlled the virus very well across Europe though outbreaks surging again, many countries a reintroducing significant restrictions such as curfews in France and Spain tears in England firebreaks in Wales, and some are even calling for another total UK lockdown as we attempt to control the spread of the virus that's something though the government has so far resisted doing there are others who say we need now to lock the whole place down John Gruden to land's end turn the lights out shut. Up Shop closed schools and universities, and go back to the same kind of lockdown. We had in March April and May and I had to say, I don't believe that is the right course. Now, not when the psychological cost of lockdown is well known to us the economic cost not when it's been suggested that we might have to perform the same sort of brutal lockdowns again and again in the months ahead and not when there is such an obvious variation unlike last time between different parts of the country. So that's why we're going for a balanced approach, a middle course between the the Silla herb, another national lockdown Corrib, this of an uncontrolled virus. But is it the right balanced approach? That's what we're GONNA find out there was the UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson there now many still very unhappy about the actions that are being taken arguing that they've fringe on our civil liberties that economically ruinous, they'll prove more costly in the long term on many levels than during the virus spread more naturally the pill they're saying is worse than the ill. Now early October one group authored the Great Barrington Declaration advocating an alternative approach that was based on what they called focused protection of those most at risk and thereby minimizing the broad societal harms of the covid nineteen pandemic lockdowns. The World Health Organization on the other hand despite the advising against lockdowns of describe that strategy is dangerous unethical and lacking in a sound scientific basis writing in The Lancet Medical Journal, another group of researchers of sets out what they're. Calling the Jones snow memorandum arguing why taking a foot off the brake and allowing the virus spread is the wrong approach. This is what Boris Johnson had to say about the issue in a recent Downing Street press briefing I know that there are some people who say this economic objective is so important that we should stop all measures to control the virus and stop restrictions of any kind on our social lives, and on the way we run our businesses. We can't do that because. The maths is inescapable. We would face many thousands, more deaths and no to answer one commonly post question not be able to insulate the elderly and the vulnerable not in a society with so many multigenerational households no country has been able to do that and an uncontrolled expansion in the number of Kobe. Patients would mean that the NHS would have even less capacity to treat heart patients and cancer patients and to deal with all our other medical needs. So that's why we reject that extreme laissez-faire approach. What is then the best way to walk this tightrope between the cost of civil liberties, the economy education and the future prosperity the country balanced against the risk of loss of life. Well, that's what we're going to try to discuss over the next twenty five minutes or so and with me to do that all deep deep good Sanni, she's an epidemiologist from Queen Mary University of London also. Angus Dalglish a cancer doctors, Georgia's Hospital University of London Philip Clarke who is a health economist at the University of Oxford and Richard Parker who is from the University of Connecticut School of Law. So hello to all of you deep t if we begin with you, can you just sorta summarize where we are numbers wise at the moment where are we across the world and in the UK specifically? Worldwide we've had over a million report that's from. Very much likely to be an underestimate within the UK we've had over fifty thousand confirmed deaths as a result of covid nineteen, and at the moment we're seeing exponential. So that's very rapid rises. In cases we're currently at about a more than twenty thousand confirmed cases a day, which again is likely to be an understatement because we've reached destined capacity and we're seeing around two hundred daily debts with them approximately doubling every two weeks and how does that compare with the other thing that we see a lot at this time of year and that's the flu. So in a bad flu year, how many deaths will we normally get from the flu in a country like Britain? Nowhere near what we're seeing with coronavirus I mean usually I think it's under twenty thousand deaths that we expect and definitely flew does not rise at the rate that Congress does because a lot of the population is the noon we have a vaccine against flu and also we know that flu doesn't spread as rapidly score know virus flu also has a much lower risk of people dying. And infected compared with coronavirus rate of diamond coronavirus is several fold higher. The thing is though that if we look at the death toll in the UK year about six, hundred, thousand people die in the UK every don't they and the fraction that is corona virus deaths at the moment is single numbers percents maybe four percent of is one number that's been listed for September. So it's actually small proportion of the overall death toll in this country. Yes, and that's because of all the measures that have been taken to control it. It's actually well accepted in the scientific community that if it was allowed to spread the susceptible population, it would lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths more in the range of about three hundred to four, hundred thousand if it were allowed to spread because unlike many other causes of debts, they don't actually expand. Exponentially. So for example, people talk about debts due to traffic accidents, but drove traffic accidents don't multiply chime with coronavirus in one person is infected and another five days. You'd have three people infected in another five days you'd have nine and then twenty seven and so on. So the potential for causing death at infection is huge, but it's not an equal opportunities virus in terms of age, is it Because it's not a valid comparison to say, we'll road traffic accidents because actually the people who have the most to lose from this virus, all the people who are the oldest in society zest definitely the fatality rates higher all the people but we know that young and healthy people can get long-term effects things like type one diabetes which can lead to permanent or long-term effects. We don't know yet. So it's not just that all people have honorable we know that people who are, let's say obese or people who have diabetes hypertension. So this is about twenty thirty percent of the population. Many countries are vulnerable to what we call severe covid nineteen disease. So it's not true that this is a disease that mostly occurs an older people and doesn't affect young and healthy people because it certainly does. Thank you for that overview? Let's bring in Richard Parker at this stage Richard I appreciate that you are law person other than an epidemiologist but what's the situation across the states at the moment greetings from America where we have eight point six million positive cases diagnosed to date to it in twenty four, thousand deaths. We have four percent of the world's population twenty percent of the deaths. We have new cases rising at a rate of about eighty thousand per day, which is more per day even on population adjusted basis New Zealand experienced in its entire. Pandemic trajectory for the year to date. So we have not handled it pandemic. Well, we're having pretty much the same kinds of discussions here in the United States that I, hear you're having in the UK. When you say you, you've handled it well, you can only really say that if you have a comparison. So what are you comparing it to when you make that judgment that's been my area of research I compare the US response to the response of the benchmark practices and results set by successful countries like New Zealand Australia Korea. Taiwan China Japan Vietnam. These countries have handled this much better just following the pandemic playbook and what you find is that if you just look on a population adjusted basis at the number of deaths per capita in these countries are death rate is many times higher than theirs and you can actually calculate how many Americans it's still be alive if we'd handle things as well as New Zealand and that number is over two hundred thousand would still be alive who are now dead if we'd handle things just as well as Canada over one hundred and thirty, thousand Americans, were now. Dead but still be alive. So there was a tremendous price to be paid. All the evidence shows that the response that countries take to the virus determines how many people die. It's just a matter of following the playbook I would also note closing he's countries they've actually eliminated or conquered. The virus are now able to reopen life is going on more or less normally up across most of new, Zealand precautions but at a much higher level of economic activity, the same is true in China. This is in Japan and Korea so it's not a matter of. Opening the economy versus feeding that Iris if you defeat the virus, you can open your economy quickly but you mentioned countries that actually have had a good track record. Vietnam is one of those countries that has a very good track record. We also spoke to one of your fellow countrymen taught pollock. Now he's an infectious diseases Dr from Harvard but he's based in Vietnam so what did he? Think we all stem made Vietnam successful in controlling their outbreak not want intervention alone is enough to contain covid nineteen. Kita Vietnam success is that they did many things that have proven to be wise policies and they did them earlier than most other countries. Some of the key interventions were very effective and comprehensive contact tracing program having rapid responses to contain clusters of outbreaks just locking down the entire. Or neighborhoods increasingly strict border control policy with very early mandatory quarantine for all arrivals early recommendations and requirements for mask-wearing and communication strategy that unified mobilize population to do its part to control the virus is that basically Richard What is wrong with the response in countries like the UK countries like the US I haven't studied the UK but I can say that is perfect summary of what went wrong of the US in issue you compare the way we handled the virus on all those points contact tracing testing, isolation, travel restrictions, dramatic contrast, all those points between what the US did in New Zealand and Australia did in Korea did and I think that accounts for the difference in results. Thank you Richard I wanNA bring in Angus at this stage Angus. Douglas sure cancer doctor at George's. One of the big worries here is the wall. We prioritize the health provision to try to cope with corona virus. We all potentially storing enormous clinical iceberg of people out in the community who might not be seeking treatment. They might have treatment deferred they might have mistreatment they might not be having screening that would pick up treatment. They might not having vaccines that prevent ultimately cancers. For instance, the human papillomavirus vaccination program has been interrupted for some girls in some schools. Is this really your concern that basically we're robbing Peter to pay Paul clinically here this is a major concern. Having. Look, at number of patients who miss screenings in the millions number of patients who have had like cats and I know. Cases seen those being defend. Defended to have that procedure biopsy by two or three months this pandemic and then when they get it, then I'll stateful cancer. Last month's they were curable. I'm there thousands of cases like this, and it's not just cancer. The same guys for heart attacks, strokes, oldies, things before we get home to mental health problems lead. This is enormous those like. Speaking, haters you we've only has gone the forty thousand people died in fires in the first to solve their endemic in neighboring may that has also high I mean they had a crisis in the lockdown was the right thing to do. But often that was controlled that's actually went down and so basically this the endemic basically brought forward that's going to happen anyway and I think when you look at it, this is very clearly what's happening. It's very interesting buyers it is replaced at she the flu. That does not forget flu. He'll twenty eight, thousand people in two, thousand fifteen and if you actually look at forty two, thousand acres collecting few thousand, those are probably not people who died code but had had A. His al-Qaeda. So I think we have to be very very. Whereas, we're not hypothecating about the tens of thousands of people her going to die early. And many of these be. Thirties, forties, fifties, economically product whereas. Diamond. Georgia. In the eighties nineties and There was a letter written to the Daily Telegraph yesterday letters to the editor Sir. It's impossible to prevent death. The best anyone can expect is that if we can postpone it for as long as possible while we have a reasonable quality of life, the government has decided that it can postpone some deaths by imposing draconian restrictions on people to the detriment of their quality of life while bringing forward, a significantly greater number of deaths than those that trying to postpone is that sort of what you're arguing that basically we are, we are actually going to store up a pill is worse than the ill, but some people are saying with this sort of measure. Yes I saw. Tokyo agreed with it you go through the. Off the loss two or three weeks. Incredible. Outpouring of people who are in their eighties ninety at risk who basically saying they would follow the Titan risk and have a normal life and having that long. But the last thing they want to do and then our CD is and lock them able to see the family on A. Session I and this is what brings this terrible mentally because even my colleagues committed suicide. People outside that subsequently how my GP committed suicide and you see the number of people locked up in hose residents who've become. So. Enormous. You cannot justify another. Philip your health economist I suppose one of the big problems that the government have to balance here is on the one hand, an epidemiologist light deep t comes an answers the question which they're asked, how do we minimize the deaths from covert? What are the risks? What's the potential death toll and then you have an oncologist like angus who saying we'll hang on a minute we're actually already seeing very profound numbers of. Deaths in society for other reasons, how do they might those sorts of judgments turn this into a policy that is not just justified but also meets the ethics and makes the economics. Yes. Chris Economists having working onto the what's known as quality, which is called a quality adjusted life year. So it takes into account say how it might extend someone's life but also how it may impact on someone's quality of life and this. Has Been routinely used in the United Kingdom for many years and in the evaluation many different types of interventions. In the case of the lockdown, there has been some efforts but some of the broader questions which I think we're trying to balance off the impacts of the lockdown on reducing the risk of the COVID, nineteen. Boris this is the impact on other treatments. This hasn't been done, and perhaps it really needs to be. Done. To make evidence based decisions to balance of the benefits to reducing this infections as this is the cost to many other diseases and also people's mental health, I'd like to play you a clip from Quinton Grafton who is economics professor a new the Australian national. University. One of your countrymen an we asked him why in his view, the lockdowns that have occurred in Australia have been so successful compared with say the UK. Some people say that you need draw open up getaway lockdowns to side the economy is absolutely not. The case, a stray many of the economy's live. Look when you get to long numbers, the payoff is that you don't have a lockdown. You got a New Zealand white now is why pre covet you've got to west Straits like because that's a huge I for the economy and then you can manage the infections that may be come out on team. For example, you can manage the effectively testing contact tracing. That's a huge pile I can tell you strong element. Lot of the United Kingdom that's why because they went early that went hot and they've actually been able to get the spiral in the infection on the control of the countries that have failed to do so Safa not on the in twenty twenty minutes suffering twenty twenty one. So but fairly act valujet back soon enough is GONNA generate bad outcomes in public help also also in terms of the economy, that's the other way of looking at it. Of course, isn't it? We spend a bit of money up front and actually there is a long term benefits there is going. To be a health cost we all going to Rob Peter to pay Paul in the way the Angus was saying, but actually the pine will be less than if we carry on with the cycle of boom and Bust Phillip, what do you think the let? Certainly the United States that many have fought I. think it involves policies that are obviously quite accordion and these occurred in New Zealand strategy, a-, but also these other nations, and then you've basically got close your borders and so for example, a country like China is only accepting a few hundred passengers from outside and. Millions effectively going back to the country. So in Europe I think that would be extremely difficult to close the borders. It's an interesting question for the UK, but that would have to be a part of a decision. Of this involves abate on whether they will be an effective vaccine and when that would occur, which would, of course, potentially mitigate the current second wife as. So it's a very difficult and uncertain policy of environment, you can see why there are many different views about the ultimate sort of cost benefits of lockdowns in these circumstances speaking about the whole concept of a lockdown though the policy is that we have a lockdown at buys you important time it buys you breathing spiced, implement some kind of strategy that you have to have in. Place things ready to go having come out of that either storm that you create. Richard. So have we missed the boat for instance in the US and also in the UK of we fiddled while Rome, and in fact London and New York have burned well I think that's a very good way of describing it. Actually lockdowns are part of a larger strategy that includes contact tracing casting. Isolating people who get the virus hailing them and keeping them from transmitting the disease and ultimately breaking the chain of transmission. If you're do lockdown really really effectively incorrectly as successful countries have done, you can break the chain of transmission and you can do it quickly and that is the compact that just into our dern mate with her Solo Kiwis in March she said if we Do this hard and we do it. Now, we can leagues this virus in a month, and that's exactly what they did. It took a little bit more than a month. They were able to not only block the chain of transmission with able to get in place procedures for contact, tracing and testing that can contain any future outbreaks. So that is a social compact that a lockdown entails. Hard do it effectively and it will be short but they did it really effectively in really hard the population equivalent of twenty three, thousand US prosecutions for violations of their lockdown, and so the other lesson from all of this is that you can't fake lockdown you have to actually do it in if we'd actually done it harder in the United States and harder in Great Britain when we're actually doing it, I, think it would be done with the virus by now they would still be obviously pockets outbreaks that we would have to monitor against, but we would have a much much lower base of cases and economy would be reopening again. Here as it is a New Zealand Angus, if I could come to you because you made the point that obviously this is storing up a lot of trouble and it's going to cost a lot of lives in other respects. What would you do differently than? I wasn't against lockdown starts lockdown the right thing today and it didn't work here in the UK. It worked in museums but the museum it's. Different from anything else we have your laptop, they had that job, but this virus is not going to go away. We'll. You're basically have to shut down all trade everything if you're going to completely lock down using not in our out, we will lockdown down till we die we destroy the economy the really to try to this. Now, he's just not possible. I also think epidemiologists. Really quite remarkable be wrong in any of that predictions and everything about it's made worse because of the testing lockdown might be a lot more effectively have track and trace. The days we still can't get that right but as gods to the instance of it and it worked from wrong they say didn't come into the country salted hanged in January made high things you clearly had in mid December and I know that I had because we had been tested and people positive. What is the point? You'll therefore making the in fact? Far, more people have had the than we think and therefore it's less dangerous than we think absolutely got one I. was number of people really have it and they haven't died and in many ways, this is the public biggest problem in the long term effects in young people, I think that's A problem. That's seem to be people who are. Ready to die. Anyway. Returning to the point I put to you then which is what would you like to see as the optimal way to manage this now? Wait this now is very much a mix generally Swedish model. ARRINGTON. Exploration. That is those people are known to be a high risk of votes be very careful and shield. And they got to take a major role in touch but otherwise, people have to get allies and just do it. You've got to change how you modus operandi member Sweden was most lockdown, but it did everything else and the high death rate is. This does. Sweden tied right because the same stupid thing as the NHS sent out people into Arabs. Heston them. So high death rate in Sweden, his own people let just look at the death rate in Sweden in one year's time because I I doing what they're doing. They're not going to get their way after ways that we are going to inject having locked outlook. A deep sea. This seems like a a good one for you. Then one of the points that Angus raises is the fact that there might be reason to doubt the severity of the infection and certainly the mortality rate and fact that's interesting because there was the W.. H., I. Bulletin recently wasn't there. co-authored from Stanford where they looked at the infection fatality rate in other words, the people we know have had it the people we know have had aunt died of it, and those numbers looking across tens of countries seem to suggest that the mortality rate is about point two percent over the age of seventy and if you look under the age of seventy, it's no point north five percent, which is less than flu. Those studies that you're having to have been widely discredited in the scientific community and are based on very, very selective evidence from certain studies I mean I guess just to give an example if you consider that fifty, eight, thousand people within the UK have died of go with one thousand nine, which is what the Office of National Statistics say and the I is, as you say, point zero, five percent, you would need I think hundred twenty million people have been infected, which we know hasn't happened because the population of the UK is only around sixty, six million. How are we to pay for all of this in the long run? It just seems at the moment that Theresa? May's magic money tree that we were told didn't exist at the moment does exist has been reincarnated in the form of free so Knack Chancellor of the exchequer this go on forever though there has to be able to price to pay yes. Chris I mean it really is initially by date and I think governments have decided they are going to Spain up and they PEPs Lynn listens of the boss that you've got to try to take vulnerable people such as people furloughed by then I think is going to have to be a conversation. And also then think about as our economy recovers who will pie and one of the interesting problems here is, of course, this mainly being about protecting older people that it's of course, younger people who have been most affected economically. So I think once go to think about ways where you can actually have some of the payment back from that day rather than falling on income and income of the younger people in society had actually been falling on the ones going to have to think about novel ways to collect taxes to pay that debt in future. But also to put in place predictions to stop the next pandemic and that's another conversation we need to have. People thought more suggested that the NHS was underfunded before all this. Now, the country has borrowed basically the amount of money it makes in a year and fifty percent of that. Again, we're estimating the cost by the time we get to about this time. Next year is going to be well north of half a trillion pounds if the NHL. Was Hard Up to start with before all of this and we've just borrowed that amount of money is not going to be awash with money in a year's time. Is it I? Mean I think there will be some? Difficult Decisions Governments I think they won't necessarily go back to the sort of austerity that people think viewed as having very big consequences for the health system and other arts of social care that yes I think at the moment governments are ohring and they I really leaving it to the next government and future governments to make decisions about how isis in the long run. Of course, one country we keep returning to people keep citing the Swedish model for how you can play out without potentially having to go down the route of lockdown. We also heard from Yoenis Ludvigsson who's a clinical epidemiologist is also a pediatrician at the Karolinska Institute. Sweden this is what he told us. Finish strategy of the last eight months has been protect the vulnerable and the risk groups. It's sold Sabine to Cape Society function to slow the pandemic cross than to completely stop spread of the virus. It's Spain to try to take other aspects of health into consideration so that despite the fact that we're in the midst of a storm of pandemic, there are other aspects of how such as psychiatric, Coutts call you bachelor health cancer etc, which we need to take into account. Deep coming back to you must have been asked this an enormous number of times or had to consider this what Sweden have done, which is to have less restriction than we have had here. In the UK how does it compare? Is it valid comparison or is? Are we comparing apples with oranges and we really shouldn't do it I think the scientific consensus on the Swedish strategy. Including from the people who let it initially is that it definitely wasn't the best strategy and it's very clear that if you look at the death rates in Sweden, there much higher than those of their counterparts actually at about ten fold higher since about six hundred per million versus about sixty per million in many other Nordic countries. I. Think the worst part of it is that. A more lax approach and trying to avoid lockdowns they did not fare any better economically. In fact, there's very strong evidence now that how well a society does economically correlates very well with covert nineteen controlled. So Sweden has actually done as badly as Denmark Norway and Finland despite foreing different strategy but with about a tenfold higher mortality rate and you don't think that the rest of Europe will catch up on the mortality stakes because there is this concept of harvesting bringing for the inevitable where someone's gotta die of something. Let's face it and they could die of flu they could dive covid covert happened to claim them this time they're not. There flew to claim could be there for other countries will catch up in the numbers equalize or do you think the countries like Sweden in the UK was bound lies well I mean the idea of cash has been promulgated for a really long time and in seven months, we haven't seen this happen. In fact what we've seen as the differences between countries that performed well, and the ones that performed worse have become more and more stock over time, and that's what's likely to happen. In fact, we're hearing very much about the potential of successful vaccines being available quite soon, and it makes complete sense to try and control the spend to. Make as well as possible rather than letting Rep. thank you do. We'll have to leave it there and thank you to all of the people who contribute to this week. You heard Richard Parker deep gotTa Sahni Anger. I'm Phillip Clarke if you have some thoughts comments feedback or reactions to what we've been discussing this week, we do have facebook page it's facebook dot com slash the naked scientists, and there is a pinned post at the top of the page referencing this program. So if you've got any thoughts that you'd like to pen there, we'd very much like to hear them and perhaps we can continue this discussion both online and on. The program next week speaking of which because we're GONNA make it into November next week we've decided that we're GonNa make November a month of being on the move. If at the whole of the next five weeks are going to be a devotion to motion. You could say and I up it's going to be animals that are on the move. We're going to look at migration monitoring also when humans should and shouldn't intervene the naked scientists comes to from Cambridge University at the Institute of Continuing Education It's supported by Rolls Royce I'm Chris Smith thanks very much indeed to either hitting both inputting the program together and until next time goodbye. CAST powers. Some of the world's best podcasts. Here's a show we recommend. It's eight of US I year and WHO. Are. They can co host of the roundtable podcast in the thick where we talk about politics race and culture of people of Color. Perspective. That's every Tuesday and Friday. We bring you the latest political news covering the stories in issues that matter to communities of color with amazing POC journalists, activists, and academics from all over the country so you're not gonNA WANNA. 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Why 90 volunteers are set to be deliberately infected with Coronavirus in London; Plus Covid testing out of Heathrow begins

The Leader

15:22 min | Last month

Why 90 volunteers are set to be deliberately infected with Coronavirus in London; Plus Covid testing out of Heathrow begins

"Hi, it's Bonnie with you today and thanks for listening to the leader. This is where we bring you all the latest news interviews and analysis from the Evening Standard's newsroom every day at four pm make sure you hit subscribe seed on this out now from the evening standard in London this is the later. Hi I'm Bonnie Christian in a world first volunteers in London ought to be deliberately infected with covid nineteen. We can fly them up all the way through the infection and as they recover, we have a really detailed understanding of what happens to their means responses. Laid Racer CIA Dr Chris Choose. Says it's hoped this will help speed up development of a vaccine and the travel industry and nervous but I mean this is this is a start travel journalist Lisa Francesca Nand says Coruna virus testing that's begun at Heathrow isn't yet a silver bullet for struggling travel industry. Taken from the Evening Standard's editorial column. This is the later in a moment y volunteers a set to be deliberately infected with covid nineteen. In January up to ninety volunteers in London could be deliberately injected through the nose with covid nineteen for two and a half weeks they'll be kept at Royal. Free Hospital for a weld first so-called challenge study for Corona virus. If it goes ahead from May researches will start testing the efficacy of vaccines. Dot Chris Chu from the Department of Infectious Disease and the studies laid research joins me talk to cheat what exactly is a human challenge study volunteers on deliberately inoculated. It's with virus or a bacterium, and the aim of thieves is to cause an infection in some of the volunteers and then to. Look at how the infection progresses and understand what aspects. Immune system the person's response on change infection and using that you can also build in vaccinate say if you vaccinated a group of people and then compare them with a group of unvaccinated people. When you challenge them with viruses bacteria. The vaccinated people if the vaccine works should have less infection with the coyote contain virus? Are there any particular challenges? It poses while I think the the major challenges, the facts that is such a new disease, a new infection. So what we don't have is information about the long term potential symptoms sorta associated with covid nineteen having said that though we do that certain populations, certain groups of people are very low risk of getting severe disease. Or severe outcomes are not mainly as young people with very confident that if we restrict at least for the first study, the entry of volunteers to eighteen to thirty year olds then. Perhaps, even symptoms is going to be very low. So what does the first stage of the study involve? Very fuss study is to characterize the virus which has been made to very high medicine standards, cleanliness and quality, and at the moment we don't know how much virus we need to give to people to cause infection. So what we're doing in the first study is just starting with a very tiny amount of iris giving it to small groups volunteers. into their noses and seeing whether that causes infection. We may need to gradually creep up and give more virus to get to that a reproducible level of infection. At that point, we would then start thinking about testing vaccines and we'll get these dice at the covid nineteen vaccine and under what conditions we're doing everything. We can to make safe as possible for anybody who ends up volunteering for this study. And so the waves the we do that too I by selecting people that we know going to be the least risk of developing more severe Kobe disease. Mainly, not seen tons of age say as I said, eighteen to thirty year olds, we know from studies of natural infection. At extremely low risk of getting severe disease. And then within that age group, all set gains be screening people and making sure they didn't have any other medical problems which might put them a high risks. And then we would also be doing a lot of blood tests. X Rays and so on. To make sure that there is nothing else that they were unaware off the my make them more risk of more severe disease. The hope that this will speed up the vaccine is the headline today, but will also help with answering the other big questions around why some people get the virus worse than others or how people develop antibodies for absolutely say fats the other real strength of of human challenge studies that because we know about people's immune status and immune responses before they get infected with the virus, and then we can find them up all the way through the the infection and as they recover. A really detailed understanding of what happens to their immune responses that a reaction to the infection and the eight will be to even from this very first study start to to investigate some of those and look for the factors which may predispose some people to to getting infected wears other people might be will resistant to disease. and. They're all also plans to look at the duration of immunity and how long there's immune responses. Last fall in terms of vaccine development will this spade things up in terms of rolling one out the challenge slice can speed. That's up the efficacy testing process because by the end of this study will know law proportion of people get infected when you challenge them with the virus and that is usually going to. Be Sixty or seventy percent of the participants, and that means you don't have to rely on people random the encountering the virus in the community united that sixty percents or more of your group gained toget- infected and that means that you can test efficacy using. Maybe one hundred people may be up to two hundred people compared with tens of thousands in the field trials, and if you do that early in the S. Vaccine, which doesn't seem to give you any protection until you could decide not to not to progress with and prioritize vaccines do seem to give you some protection at the stage. Next it's not necessarily the silver bullet the airlines are hoping for because it's very, very nation. The moment corona virus testing begins at. Hey three. Up Work has the world's largest network of independent professionals. Goto designer a video editor or social media specialist for six days or six months up work is how and it's basically like right here in your office. They're not here here. So they can't hear Greg's remarkably loud typing. High, take it back you can hear that from anywhere an upward professionals are proven rated and reviewed when you need it in demand talent on demand help work is how Heathrow Airport has begun offering a rapid corona virus test travelers flying to a limited number of destinations known as the lamp test. The saliva swab will be taken before check in at a cost of eighty pounds and a result given twenty minutes. Later, it means passages can enter those countries without lengthy quarantine at a to`real column says, this is a small but welcome step for a grounded airline industry. While, he's worth should be congratulated for its efforts to find ways to help us fly. Again, the government by contrast has been far too slow and still isn't doing enough getting our travel industry back on its feet is critical for our future economic and mental wellbeing, and it's part of learning to live with a virus. That's why it's so disappointing that ministers haven't done more to get airport testing running. Agreed, air corridors with many more countries are needed to. So why are we welcome today's advance? The government must stop dithering and get airport testing sorted. So we can all start flying again. Transport Secretary ground shops has refused to authorize the use of tests at airports on return from trips abroad arguing that they are not effective in identifying passages infected with the virus but travel bosses have called for it to be extended to other major destinations as quickly as possible travel journalist Lisa Francesca Nand joins me Lisa. Could display the silver bullet Allen's a hyping for it's not necessarily the silver bullet the airlines. Are Hoping. Focus it's very very nation the moment these one hour tests have begun at Heathrow today and it's important to note that they are for people who are leaving the country not coming back into the country. So at the moment, they're only going to benefit Hong Kong Italy has been talked about but in some circles I'm hearing it's just Hong Kong at the moment so they're going to benefit the very. Small amount of people that want to go to Hong Kong for business when people come back unfortunately, we don't have a test system in place at the moment. So it's not going to affect the fourteen day quarantine. We think that the fourteen day quarantine, its is what what is really killing the travel industry at the moment what is it about travelers to Hong Kong and potentially easily that means they get the Test will it's all about they restrictions at that end if you're going to land in the country and there are other countries say presumably, this might be rolled out to more countries that have a specification that they need to test on arrival. They will help with them. It's a voluntary thing and also you have to pay for it yourself, which is very interesting and I think a little bit frustrating for many passages. In the when they're talking about the testing when it rose out on a wide wide basis, which fingers cross it will. You will also have to pay for it yourself, and it seems absolutely ridiculous that we are testing all over the country for free because we want to test as many people as possible, and we cannot to test for free at the airports when it's a case of hundreds of thousands of jobs and livelihoods being put at risk by this quarantine that we have at the moment. So it'll cost around eighty pounds people saying that this is a prohibitive cost. It's not a prohibitive cost if you're going to be one of these people travelling to Hong Kong, it's very likely at the moment. If you are going to do that, it's business or family, it's probably not going to be. There's very small number of people that are just going to go to Hong Kong for a random holiday at the moment. So eight hundred quid on top of tickets off Hong Kong not too bad. Eighty pounds per person on top of your to call it, eighty the del sole. Prohibitively expensive. So it does seem ridiculous to make travelers pay for this themselves. You know like I. said, we are testing all over the country. At the moment we want to test people we want to say what numbers, what the numbers look like and also obviously to prevent the spread of infection. So why not include that on the NHS why charge people when it's going to serve to mean that the number of people travelling really really minimum and how does this test compared to the others that are available? There's there's apple testing in a lot of other countries and it's working well, everyone has their own way of doing it in the ring specifications some people test on rival some people want to certificate people want all sorts of things and I think the government at the moment they've got this global travel task force that they're getting together is already together over considering what are our options? What we in the travel industry would like is to cut the cord. Insane. To well to a minimum if possible by providing these tests like they're doing in other countries. But at the moment grand ships that transport minister, he told the travel industry a couple of days ago that should be something can placed by the first of December to help bridge quarantine, but it's likely only to be seven days reduced down to seven days not fourteen days. What's been the reaction from industry leaders? What are they saying I've everyone's panicking I honestly you know. We have hundreds of thousands of jobs at stake in the travel industry. There's a very real possibility that massive airlines, companies, hotels, organizations, travel agents might go under. You know what we already saw pre covid. We saw the loss of Tommy Thomas Cook. Monarch BMI flyby all sorts of airlines and travel industry. Bodies, were really struggling and that that's something that we haven't even approached what's going to happen with the EU wh- There is actually currently no agreement in place for January hoping that something will actually happen. So I think the travel industry nervous but I mean this is this is a start and we're hoping that this global taskforce the government have in place to address the issues with travel. At the moment will bring in something like I said by the December the first hoping the actually the quarantine testing might reduce according to seven days but that still going to be a very few amounts of people can still quarantine for for those seven seven days. It's still quite a lot of time to take off school or work unless you're retired or very, very flexible. So we are. Hopeful, this is a step in the right direction at least they have the rapid testing and that's what we're after. We just need to implement it when people come back into this country unto as quickly as possible. And that's the lead you can read more on those stories by picking up a copy of the newspaper visiting standard dot co Dot. UK. We also have morning briefings available at seven am three or smart speaker. Just ask full the news from the evening. Standard this podcast is back tomorrow at four PM see then.

Hong Kong Evening Standard Lisa Francesca Nand London Bonnie Christian Dr Chris Choose Heathrow Airport Free Hospital UK Hong Kong Italy EU Chris Chu Department of Infectious Disea Hong Kong Greg editor
As Trump attacks Fauci, coronavirus case numbers keep rising

The Daily 202's Big Idea

13:16 min | Last month

As Trump attacks Fauci, coronavirus case numbers keep rising

"Good Morning I'm James Home from the Washington Post and this is the daily two Oh two for Tuesday October twentieth. Today's. Of Four Supreme Court split on voting case shows why confirming Amy Barrett is such a huge deal. The Justice Department indicts six Russian intelligence officers in several high profile cyber-attacks attacks in our newest poll shows North Carolina is a dead heat. But first. The BIG IDEA President trump dismissed precautions to prevent the spread of the coronavirus yesterday and attacked the nation's top infectious disease expert disaster arguing that people are getting tired of all the focus on a pandemic that killed about two hundred and twenty thousand Americans and continues to infect tens of thousands of people in communities across the country every day. The president claimed that voters don't want to hear any more from the country scientific leaders about the virus responding angrily to a critical interview Sunday night that Fao she gave to CBS's sixty minutes later in the day, the president again attacked coach the director of the national. Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases mocking him for his botched ceremonial first pitch at Nationals Park on opening day and misrepresenting several of the doctors positions on corona virus in tweets. Trump's comments in his aggressive travel schedule, which continued Monday with two stops in Arizona is Joe. Biden. Stated home in Delaware as part of a broader and more aggressive bet that the American people will reward has projection of strength and general defiance toward the virus which hospitalized the president for three days in infected many of his top aides earlier this month. Michael Shearer and Josh dossier report that trump is expected to do three or four rallies everyday starting this weekend trump's been barnstorming western states in the last few days while Biden, his state out of public view to prepare for Thursday's presidential debate and avoid the large crowds amid the pandemic trump is taking a less rigorous preparation plan for the debate and is unlikely to do extensive formal preparations. Instead, the president is maintaining an person campaign schedule that will take him to Florida after the debate for several more events. On Monday afternoon trump campaign manager bill Stepien wrote a letter to the Commission on presidential debates seeking to move the conversation the final debate away from domestic issues like the coronavirus, the economy and climate change to only discuss foreign policy. A few hours. Later, the commission said that it will mute trump's and Biden's microphones during parts of the debate at Belmont University. In Nashville, the commission said it will give both trump and Biden two minutes apiece to speak uninterrupted at the start of each of the six segments of the night. A period of open discussion will then follow until the next segment. Trump's campaign has repeatedly opposed this idea. The trump campaign though says, it plans to go ahead with the debate despite the changes. Against this backdrop of politicking, we can't forget the pain of the pandemic. A new study from Columbia University shows that eight million of our fellow Americans have plunged into poverty since May. The Cares Act which gave Americans a one time stimulus check of twelve hundred dollars and unemployed workers and extra six hundred dollars a week helped offset growing poverty rates in. The spring, but its effects were short lived and have now worn off the federal government defines. The poverty line is when a family of four earns twenty, six, thousand, two, hundred dollars a year or less. The Columbia researchers say the number of Americans in this category has now reached fifty, five, million, fifty, five, million, making less than twenty, six, k. a year. Meanwhile Nancy Pelosi says there was progress in talks with the trump administration is her self imposed deadline of tonight looms. The House speaker said on MSNBC that the trump administration agreed to her propose language that she demanded relating to addressing racial disparities in the viruses impact her chief interlocutor from the trump administration is treasury secretary, Steven Mnuchin who's traveling in Israel. Today he employees spoke for roughly an hour on Monday and are expected to talk again in the next few hours but trump himself seemed to downplay chances for a good outcome in Arizona and Senate Republicans still remain uninterested on the public health side of things. The CDC last night finally issued formal recommendations that passengers wear masks when they're on airplanes, buses and public transit. This guidance was issued in response to pressure from lobbyists, the airline industry, but the recommendations fall far short of what transportation industry leaders and their unions had sought. The CDC previously drafted an order under the agency's quarantine powers that would have required all passengers, an employees to wear masks on all forms of public transit, but the White House blocked the order in the TSA. It screened more than one million air travelers on. Sunday. That's the first time. Since March seventeenth that airport security nationwide has seen more than a million daily passengers. Here in DC even is more, people hit the not so friendly skies public health officials added eight states to the city's list of locations considered risk for travel including Arizona, the president was made shoots sits Michigan Ohio and Pennsylvania technically here in DC you're required a self quarantine for two weeks if you go to one of those high risk states but there are now thirty nine states that have this designation since infection rates are rising in many cities from coast to coast school leaders are contemplating changing their reopening plans, some classrooms, and even entire schools that have opened are now closing again in response to outbreaks in some cities opposition from. Teachers Unions to going back to work has slowed efforts to reopen buildings. But overall, we just did a tally and we found that the trend is now solidly toward more in person schooling of the fifty biggest districts in America twenty four have now resumed in person classes for large groups of students and eleven others planned to do so in the coming weeks, four more have opened or plan to reopen for small groups of students who need extra attention. Laura. McLaren. Valerie. Strauss report that many are in Florida and Texas of the places that have reopened where Republican governors are requiring in person classes but schools are also reopening a New York City. Salt Lake Greenville South Carolina. Returns are planned soon in Charlotte Baltimore in Denver just eleven of the fifty largest districts in the country are still fully remote with no immediate plans to change that. In. Some good news in this regard from New York City. New Data show a surprisingly small number of positive cases among staff and school children in the city three weeks into their in person school year. Sixteen thousand staff members and students tested randomly by the school system. In the first week of its testing regimen, the city has gotten back results and found that there were only twenty eight positives twenty were staff and only eight were students. Meanwhile, the race for a cure continues British scientists. This week are launching the world's first human challenge trials for covid nineteen they will infect healthy volunteers with the virus in the hope of further speaking the way to a vaccine. Research which is being led by Imperial College. London is a gutsy gambit given that people will be submitting themselves to the virus with no surefire treatment. The virus can kill volunteers will be given a laboratory grown strain of the virus will been quarantined in a secure unit the Royal Free Hospital in London they'll undergo daily even hourly tests. The initial phase of the study will seek to determine the minimal amount of virus necessary to cause an active measurable infection. Meanwhile back here in the states out west California's Democratic Governor Gavin newsom announced that the country's biggest state will not distribute any corona virus vaccine approved by the federal government. Until the state government has conducted its own independent review to confirm that it's effective and works and safe. And as a reminder that this really is a worldwide crisis, overnight Argentina became the fifth country in the world to surpass one million cases joining the United States India Brazil and Russia. And that's the big idea. Here are three other headlines that should be on your radar. This Tuesday number one the Supreme Court denied a Republican requests to stop an extended deadline for meal and ballots in Pennsylvania. The justices action involved in arcane voting practice but carried outsize importance because of Pennsylvania's role in the election, it prompted a fierce battle between the States Democrats and Republicans. It also showed a precariously balanced supreme court, which has only eight members after the death of Ruth Bader. Ginsburg, and it also shows the. Potential importance of trump's nominee to replace her emmy. Tony Barrett the court was tied on the Republican request for four, which means that the effort failed the courts for conservative most conservative justices. I should say Clarence Thomas Sam Alito Neal gorsuch and Brett Cavanaugh said they would have granted the GOP. But that takes five votes, which means Chief Justice John. Roberts, sided with the Liberals. Steven. Briar Sony said my Orrin Elena Kagan. Bob Barnes Supreme Court beat reporter says neither side explained its reasoning which often happens in emergency requests but the outcome shows the decisive role. Barrett will play assuming she's controlled by the Republican controlled Senate? Week trump said he wants her on the court. In case there is a split on litigation arising from the election so that she can vote his way. And the legal wrangling continues and lower courts. These are some of the kinds of cases that could end up before the supremes. If Barrett's confirmed federal appeals court just ruled Texas for example that that state can reject mail in ballots over mismatched signatures without giving voters a chance to appeal and in North Carolina a weeks long dispute over mail ballots return without a witness signature came to an end yesterday with county election administrators allowed to resume the process to fix or cure thousands of deficient ballots that have been left in limbo. The State continues early voting. Despite all the legal maneuvering. Thousands of voters flocked to the polls throughout Florida yesterday on the State's first day of in person voting despite heavy rains adding the evidence that Americans are unusually eager and excited to cast ballots this year with early voting underway across America. Nearly thirty million people have already voted with two weeks to go until the election. This is according to a new tally by political scientists Michael McDonald at the of Florida. Thirty million means that more than one in five of the people who voted in two thousand sixteen have already voted were already eight twenty percent of our two thousand, sixteen turnout. Number two. The Justice Department unsealed charges yesterday against six Russian intelligence officers in several high profile cyber attacks. These include the disruption of Ukraine's power grid and the release of a mock ransomware virus that caused billions in damage. The alleged hackers are members of the GRU, the same military intelligence agency previously charged in connection with efforts to interfere in our twenty sixteen presidential election. Authorities allege that the. Group also leaked hacked emails of individuals involved in French president, Emmanuel, macron's. Campaign targeted the organizations investing investigating the poisoning of Russian operative Sergei scruple in hacked computers that were supporting the two thousand eighteen winter Olympics in South Korea in retaliation for the Russian doping scandal being posed. Number three. A brand new Washington. Post. ABC News poll just out shows the trump and biden running in a dead heat in north. Carolina with the economy booming the president's candidacy and the pandemic boosting his challenger. This is one of the key electoral targets in November there at forty nine percent to forty eight percent among likely voters. North Carolina is one of two southern battlegrounds along with Florida that the president one in two, thousand, sixteen and their crucial in his path to get two hundred seventy electoral votes. For years ago trump won North Carolina by four points and it's fifteen electoral votes with it. If he doesn't get the Tar heel state, his path to victory becomes significantly more difficult. Trump's forty seven percent job approval is slightly better in north. Carolina, than it is nationally when asked, which of the candidates would best handle the two major issues trump's. Trusted than Biden to deal with the economy by six points, Biden is more trusted to handle the coronavirus by eight points. Biden's margin on trust on the pandemic is smaller than nationally while trump's margin on the economy is bigger than his national number two weeks from election day. The race North Carolina is a jump ball. And that's the daily to, for Tuesday, October twentieth. Thanks for listening I'm James. Hillman I'll talk to you tomorrow. Momentum. The daily two. Oh, two is brought to you by Cleveland Clinic and the new podcast caring for tomorrow. I'm Joan London the host of the series. Please join us as we explore the challenges and solutions that are defining the future of healthcare look for us wherever you get your podcast.

Trump trump Biden President North Carolina Arizona Florida Supreme Court Tony Barrett New York City Justice Department Four Supreme Court Pennsylvania America Senate Steven Mnuchin Delaware Washington Post
 What role should the public play in science? - Science Weekly podcast

The Guardian's Science Weekly

26:00 min | 2 years ago

What role should the public play in science? - Science Weekly podcast

"The Amazon prime videos. The Romanoff's is a new original series from the creator of madman eight globe spanning stories about one shared Royal bloodline. The Romanoff stars Diane lane, Christina Hendricks, Aaron Eckhart. John slattery. Amanda, Pete and Paul Reiser with a new episode every Friday premiering October twelfth only on Amazon prime video. The guardian. I went to fifty doctors before I got a diagnosis. I can't take care of my cats. It is. My life. In may activists rallied in New York to call on governments worldwide to take action for people living with an E on my allergy. And Kathleen, my lightest. The placards or messages like you can't ignore 'em now and EMMY CFS hidden suffering CFS stunts for chronic fatigue syndrome, and you often see EMMY and CFS mentioned together in the media. We don't know whether they have a single cause or multiple causes. So I think we should not necessarily assume that these are the same conditions, although they do seem to have overlap. The fact that we don't know what causes the disease or diseases has long been a source of contention despite the discovery of biological abnormalities. Impatience what is happening in people affected is far from clear diseases. Clearly, it's really unpleasant, and I do really feel. It must be really difficult thing to have happened to you without an identified 'cause interventions focused on strategies, like cognitive, behavioral therapy or graded exercise therapy. They aim to help sufferers cope with their symptoms. But some see the focus on the mind is a dismissal of it being physical disease. They say it suggests that illnesses, all in the mind. It's an argument the research is we spoke to reject it doesn't mean that the disease might not have a physical cause it may very well have have such thing. I work at research in the field. It can be a challenging environment to work in some face, regular abuse and campaigns that target their funders. And institutions anyone who works in. This field is familiar with receiving a fair bit of criticism. And sometimes some very Frank still ADI were you attacked personally any of your listeners wants to go on Google Twitter. And have a look they will see some not very pleasant comments to me. But now the fraught debate may have reached another level. The Reuters news agency reports that a major journal is about to withdraw a much cited review of interventions for CFS amid what Ecoles fierce criticism and pressure from activists and patients if it's being withdrawn without there being any serious scientific fraud or major problems with how the review is done in. It's it's being withdrawn. Anyway, I defined that a worrying precedent. I'm in sample and on science weekly. We're looking at what role the public should have in research? We're not looking at the cause of chronic fatigue syndrome or its potential treatment. But asking what the boundaries should exist to protect the integrity of science. So my name's Michael shop. I'm professor of psychological medicine, which is cartridge psychology apply to medical illnesses. And I work at the university of Oxford. What is chronic fatigue syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome is pretty much what it says on the tin. It's a illness which is characterized by symptom of severe fatigue. That's usually made worse by tippety, and it's defined as having lasted at least six months, I'm being disabling, that's preventing the people doing with the sufferers from doing the things that they would normally do. And how does that relate to EMMY we often hear these two terms together? The term EMMY stands for my Aljic and keffer my litis. This term was coined in the nineteen fifties to describe an epidemic of symptoms in the staff of the Royal free. Hospital which occurred during a polio epidemic, and in modern usage is used to describe complex symptoms without a clear medical calls, which is often but not always counter is by severe fatigue. So they're often conflicted as CFS slash me or AMI slash CFS. In fact, they may not be identical. And the problem is way have illnesses that are essentially defined on symptoms. We don't know whether they have a single cause or multiple causes. So I think we should not necessarily assume that these are the same conditions, although they do seem to have overlap. Let's talk about CFS. Do we know what the cause of it is well CFS stands for chronic fatigue syndrome on a syndrome describes a collection of symptoms is not the same. As it is ease where we know the cause. So in simple terms, we don't have. A single 'cause we do know that it can start following certain infections. We do know that people who suffered depression in the past more likely to get it. We do know there may be a small genetic loading. But in terms of a specific clear identifiable cause you'll right? We don't know and presumably not knowing the cause makes it that much harder to treat. Right. Well, that is true to some extent. But a lot of treatments medicine, probably an embarrassingly large number are being designed and tested and are used without knowing the cause it would help to know the cause. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try treatments. Michael fellow scientist can Goldsmith with part of a team that looked at the efficacy of treatments for these patients. Kim as by statistician at King's College London. She worked with Michael on the pace trial, a large scale five year study that compared number of interventions aimed at helping patients. So one of those Wisconsin behavioral therapy that addresses serve have people might think about their symptoms and behave towards her symptoms. Another was graded exercise therapy which physiotherapist delivers that and it's working with the person with the onus to gradually increase their exercise third one was called adaptive pacing therapy. And the idea that is that you you do things when you feel you have energy and you rest when you when you don't and those three treatments were compared against control treatment, which was given to everyone in the trial. How effective do those treatments seemed to be we see those as moderately effective treatments. So as we also indicated in the paper, it probably means we need we do need other treatments because these ones are moderately affect. Give I can't paper received some criticism. One study published in the journal BMC psychology, re the raw data from the pace trial and found that cognitive behavioral therapy and graded exercise therapy had quote, no long term benefits at all. I put this to Michael, well, we've been very carefully through that paper. And of course, it makes some points about the limitations of these kinds of trials which are actually described in the paper, but we don't agree with reanalysis. And we don't think actually changes the results of the trial. But the criticisms didn't stop there anyone who works in this field. And that's not just the author of the pace trials anyone who's does. This kind of research in chronic fatigue syndrome is familiar with receiving a fabric of criticism on sometimes some very Frank Stella were you attacked personally. Any of your listeners wants to go on Google Twitter. And have a look they will see some not very pleasant comments to me. Have you become in some sense lightning rod for this kind of reaction? No. I don't think that's true. And if that's not isn't true because I'm in touch with colleagues in the number of countries, and I'm sorry to say they pretty much all receive the same kind of treatment. So colleagues in here in Norway in the Netherlands in Denmark. Some extent United States. So this is a general phenomenon why these campaign is so opposed to things like graded, excise therapy and CBT. Well, I can only answer that in terms of what they say when criticizing it. I think they're all very strongly and sincerely held views about the nature of the onus that it is in them. I a neurological or illogical illness that has no psychological or sarcastic aspect to it. And it could not be changed by a simple thing such as changing activity. Therefore evidence, which is country to that very strongly held view must be false. And actually they feel. It's challenging the narrative that they favourite not only must be deemed false. It must be removed. So I think these clash of very strongly held views about the onus between what science is telling us on what people passionately believe about the illness. They often have themselves. Critics argue that the focus on psychological treatments implies that the illness is all in the mind that it does not have a physiological component the conduct of the trial. There seems to be something going on here can be wear. Some patients may see the suggestion that a psychological intervention could work for them as dismissing it as a mental condition as not a physical disease is the case. Now, that's not the case tall. And that's not how I see it. And I know it's not how my colleagues see it either these treatments. I think the way that we all see them is that they can help people cope with their symptoms. You know, and we're in a situation where those are the only evidence based treatments, and that's kind of what we have at at present. And it doesn't mean that the disease might not have a physical cause it may very well have have such thing. I work at the institute of psychiatry king's and many many of my colleagues also talk about the, you know, this distinction between mental disorders or illnesses and physical ones. They don't really see why there's a distinction there because it's the brain. And so on his part of the body as well. Of course. But Michael and Kim have decided not to work in this field anymore. They've moved on to research the areas, I asked them why I think I would be concerned about taking up more research in this area. And this actually a feel concerned about this general because I I don't again, I don't know for sure. But I think some scientists have probably stepped away from working in this area because of of some of the backlash that can sometimes happen. Do you still do research in this area? Actually, I'm not no, I mean, there are a number of reasons for that. I I'm doing other types of research, but I certainly wasn't particularly encouraged to carry on with it. And the reason is not because of the the hostility, but because the complaints that you get have to be responded to by the institutions, and then ask you to respond a now seven years home after publishing this trial. I'm still spending a half day of the week responding to these kind of complaints and criticisms, and that's not really sustainable in. It gets in the way of doing research is you said this study is something I seven years old. Now, you happy still to becoming into talk about it after all that time when it's very nice of you to invite me to talk about my research, scientists always enjoy that. But you're right. It is old news. And to be honest warm would lights just let go of it. But I think it's very important to defend the work of myself, very large number of colleagues who worked on this trial. I other researchers, and I also think it's important to speak up about the the harassment the journals and funders and other institutions get. So these discussions are in the public domain. After the break. We'll be looking at the effect public criticism can have on the direction of scientific research. In fact, when I talked to colleagues, this is not restricted to this area on similar things happen to people working in vaccines to people working in ethics, and of course, people working in climate change. We'll be back in a moment after this. Amazon prime videos. The Romanoff's is a new original series from the creator of madman eight globe spanning stories about one shared Royal bloodline. The Romanoff stars Diane lane, Christina Hendricks, Aaron Eckhart. John slattery. Amanda, Pete and Paul Reiser with new episode every Friday premiering, October twelve only on Amazon prime video. Today. Focus is in new guardian podcast that brings you closer to our journalism by getting behind the news every weekday. You'll join me an issue Donna talking to people at the center of the big stories impacting our world will use personal perspectives and expert analysis put you at the heart of what matters listen to today in focus unsubscribe on apple podcast Spotify or whatever you choose to listen. Welcome back to science weekly. I mean sample. Before the break. I spoke to Michael sharp and Kim Goldsmith about their experience of doing research into chronic fatigue syndrome. Michael spoke about the abuse received Kim mentioned her concerns around continuing to research the onus. They wanted to speak to us because they're worried about how a tax on science could harm research. Acquitted? A Reuters report at the top of the Polk cast they reported that a highly respected science journal is considering withdrawing a much cited review of interventions for chronic fatigue syndrome amid quote fierce criticism pressure from activists impatience we wrote to the journal in question to Cockram review. We asked them what the nature of the complaint was was it from a member of the public or scientists. And finally, whether they were withdrawing the paper. They wrote back to say the Cochran view of exercise therapy for chronic fatigue syndrome was last dated twenty fourteen and is subject to an ongoing process of review and revision following the submission of a full complaint to the editor. And chief. Cochran Catholic considers all feedback and complaints and revises or updates views when appropriate to do say there have you. Oughta team have advised us that resubmission of this review is imminent at the station on the status of this review will be made once this resubmission has been through editorial process, which we anticipate will be towards the end of November twenty eight hundred. When we inquired about the nature of the complaint, and what it pertain to they didn't comment. We also contacted the lead author. She also preferred not to comment at this stage. So it's unclear what the Cochran will withdraw the review. Not. It's also unclear precisely what the complaint was about. The Cochran collaboration as your listeners might know is regarded as a gold standard of of evidence in the medical field. What Cochran do is very rigorous systematic reviews meta analyses of existing clinical trials to provide the best answer that we can to questions of clinical treatments. So what the Cochran does. In terms of evidence is very important. What I am told is that colleagues who did a systematic review of graded exercise and chronic fatigue syndrome. They will told their reviews we're going to be retracted specifically because of complaints that they'd had. So if that were to be the case that would clearly be alarming because that would be an example of the evidence available to doctors in the public being changed not by a change in science, but by campaigns it. It was a concern echo by Kim to if the review is being withdrawn because of concerns that people have about the treatments that may may or may not have a strong scientific basis. So be so bad as to warrant withdrawal of the review. And then this is becomes a common practice in other areas than I feel this is you know, influencing science in hunt scientific way, potentially. And that's really I think that's really my concern. If it is campaign is who've led Cochran to consider putting this paper. I wondered why do they hold so much sway? Yeah. I guess in some ways, I'm not sure I suppose we'd have to ask the for example, people at the Cochran collaboration. But I do think the diseases clearly it's really unpleasant, and I I do really feel it. It must be really difficult thing to have happened to you. And also, I think because we don't know much about what causes the disease. I think maybe that's why because it's not clear what causes the disease and these treatments are more trying to help people cope with symptoms rather than getting at the cause. Perhaps. That's why these criticisms do have sway. What do you think of the consequences of this way? You have editors looking at withdrawing a review research you have scientists stepping back from doing the research itself. Watching. I think it's it's really dangerous. I mean, the thing about this particular situation is these are as far as I know the only to evidence base treatments that exist. So my concern is that if these treatments were not available anymore that there would be no treatments for people with chronic fatigue syndrome. And I think given that there is an evidence base for moderate effectiveness. I think that would be potentially quite serious, but this is not just happening in the field of chronic fatigue syndrome, but as for nominee, this is happening across a number of of fields of science and very important areas. Like vaccination, I think it is a challenge for how we communicate science because if our usual systems all peer review on dissemination ought to be altered by essentially. Pressure groups that will mean that the information we have available to the public will not reflect the science it'll reflect the influence of pressure groups, and if one's passionate about science, I think that's a cause for concern. A load of this work is is publicly funded and presumably that means that the public have some input at some point along the way where do they come in? Where does the public voice, which presumably includes campaigners where did they have a legitimate entry point to discussing this and steering this work? And where do they maybe not I think most people do health research? Used to. Indeed, welcome and are required to many cases, involve members of the public and patience in their research. And that's in formulating the questions. It's in designing the studies of making sure they're suitable for the participants. And it's interpreting results the results amnestied in helping disseminate the results, so that's really good practice. Now. I think most people would do that. Clearly, it's also quite reasonable for the public and campaigners to criticize research when it's published and the standard way, we have doing that is to write a letter the journal at sounding antiquated now that is all system or they can write blogs. And so on I think where the line is cross for me was when they campaign to hard research removed from the public record because it offends them in some way. And I think that for me is the lines to fault. What a scientist to do. Do. You think in situations like this? I think it's difficult. I hope that scientists would on the one hand listen carefully to criticisms made because sometimes they might be good ones. But at the same time stand up for the conclusions of the data not allow themselves to be silenced or sway just because someone's shouting. I think it's a challenge across science on. It's one week on a half to work out. How we deal with it. And what about patients in this because for a patient going online and looking at CFS EMMY things come up on the pace trial things come up on the COCOM review? I don't know how patient is posed to understand. What is right and what is wrong? Well, I think you've put your finger on the on the nub of this whole issue is if the information becomes so confused that patients, and indeed physicians don't know what the right treatment is than patients can't benefit from treatment as being found in research. I think it's very important. Just to reiterate the point that my colleagues that run clinics for people with chronic fatigue syndrome. Tell me that most people they see a quite happy to undertake these treatments, and that the people are campaigning. Do not represent all patients. They represent a a small group of people on it's really important that the campaigners to my view, don't stop people who would like to have these treatments from being able to have them. So how much say should the public have in science? I think we can all agree that scientists can do more to engage with the public, and as the public we need to take more interest and discussed the research, we want the question is how chronic fatigue syndrome is debilitating condition has an enormous affect on people's lives. Clearly, a better understanding of the on. This is needed to better help those affected and the only way that will happen is with more search. Thank you, Michael shop and Kim Goldsmith for joining us this week. If you want to get in touch with us about anything you've heard you can Email science weekly at the guardian dot com. There are links to all the papers and reports we've discussed on our website. The guardian dot com forward slash podcast. Just navigate to this week's episode. The producer was Gregson. I'm in sample. And this is science weekly. For more great podcasts from the guardian. Just go to the guardian dot com slash podcasts. Amazon prime videos. The Romanoff's is a new original series from the creator of madman eight globe spanning stories about one shared Royal bloodline. The Romanoff stars Diane lane, Christina Hendricks, Aaron Eckhart. John slattery. Amanda, Pete and Paul Reiser with a new episode every Friday premiering Tober twelve only on Amazon prime video.

chronic fatigue syndrome scientist Kim Goldsmith Michael Amazon Romanoff John slattery Cochran Diane lane EMMY Aaron Eckhart Paul Reiser Christina Hendricks Amanda Google Reuters Pete Frank Stella Michael shop New York
Is Labour's accusation of an NHS sell out plot persuasive?

Coffee House Shots

17:58 min | 1 year ago

Is Labour's accusation of an NHS sell out plot persuasive?

"Just before you start listening to this. podcast reminded that we have a special subscription offer. He can at twelve issues of the spectator for twelve pounds as well as the twenty pound Amazon Voucher. The go-to You spectator dot co two Ford Slash Voucher. If you'd like to cap his offer and welcome to coffee house shots spectators this daily politics podcast. I'm Cindy I'm joined by Katie Booze and James was safe so last night it could well have been a turning point this election campaign. BBC presented ingenue interview view. Jimmy Corbyn in what was pretty painful. Half an hour into his Kuban had to say I mean. Wouldn't you like to take this opportunity tonight to apologize. College is to the British Jewish community for what happened. What else I is this? I am determined that our society will be safe for people of all fates nights. I don't want anyone to be feeling insecure in our society and our government will protect every community against the abuse they receive on the streets on the trains or in other your other form of life one more time Andrew. Can I explain what we're trying to do. You have and you've been given plenty of time to do. I asked you if you want to to apologize. Don't want anyone to go through what anyone has been. You've said that several times stand that Mr Cogan was asking you about an apology. Let's move onto brexit well again on just make it clear. Racism in society is a total poison. You've said several times so we get that known arguing Islam a phobia antisemitism and other forms form of racism and I WANNA work with every community to make sure it's eliminated my whole life. That clear and people will make up their own minds. Katie that clip that we just played copen refusing to apologizes. Just Sarah Typical of how the entire interview when I mean. How important do you think this interview would be for the final result it was? It's a really bad interview for Jeremy. Corbyn I think it was probably his worst interview the campaign and I think the property say it ranks in the West since he has been labour. Leader I yeah I think different question. How much impact has we know the viewing figures last night? Run free million. I'm told by twitter. Reliable source of news is higher than ex factor actor today but since then obviously people are sharing a lot clips game love traction because I think there is a question which is odd if you watchings into people who've already made up their minds are reaching your undecided. Is it going to change minds and I imagine it will change some I suppose in the coups as shed more widely and also some he saw it to begin with. I think that on Anti Semitism was interesting is that Jeremy Corbyn has apologized in the post on various occasions. When he I I think the pressure has got team watch on his party in its handling so he didn't have been that difficult in just desert again? It sort of came. Of course he was just he just had that one line. He was trying to finish his sentence and so he didn't apologize before he finishes line was vetted for this interview. I think there are points since when it seemed as though Germany kept saying. I want to say this but he wasn't always saying things that corresponded to the question was being asked. Say there's antisemitism for example and I do think that lots of voters already believe Jeremy Coupons Party has an anti Semitism problem probably doubles down on that. This question rather moves votes whether or not it is right to roll on that issue as always interesting when you talk about a Jeremy Cubans response to questions. When he was repeatedly asked by engineer? The AH how his party would pay for the waspy pledge so to give women he Philippine discriminated against you have been discriminated against with pension ages. Changing how they would get that relief which has been promise. And it's multi billion supplanter be required and the suggestion that you need to borrow multi. Indeed that Jeremy Guven didn't really have announced their instead he just kept walking the right thing to date now. I think he'd look at all the polling. At Down Focus Group feedback there is percents monks. Lots of riches. It do you think Jeremy Opens Huts in the road race on a lot of domestic issues like the NIH s now. I think this is probably another example. Dating dating. People Doubt Jeremy Cope would like to give lots of people money. Take the things that he thinks they really deserve is whether or not he can do it. I think repeatedly saying would get it from reserves or borrow batch. She this is what is about just does add to that. I think the idea that Otani. They've been making a lot of promises right. Now and and Ali actually gonna be able to fulfil them all while any taxing. The top five percent and Jeremy Corbyn Yousef in. This interview admitted that it wouldn't just be the top five percent Because of their marriage tonight and so he did admit that would have to face. Some tax will not necessarily tax rise to pay full these changes and and he said well. It'd be fine because every all these people be better off. Thanks to other things bring in but I think he did undermined the arguments so much on the economy. Yeah in Katie owned that competency point as a poll without today by YouGov in the Times which says fifty six percent of voters. Don't believe that Jeremy Corbyn Candlelit his funding pledges. James One of the other things that came up during this interview was Jamie Corbin's wins vs on how they're terrorists and what to do if he wearing a situation like trump was earlier this year with al-Baghdadi what does he say to that. And what do you make of his answer. He said he would are a long convoluted answer about how we have to decide who fund the term who funds Isis. Who is responsible for their rise when I think probably will look view view as a home wants to hear him says? I'll do whatever is necessary to keep this country safe. I thought the interview was appalling. Jeremy Corbyn on several levels first of all on Anti Semitism he appeared on empathetic. A Katie says liberty have previously apologize. What's happened and he appeared to be Indanan? No I mean I think he's remarkable for him to save at. The problem has got worse since he became party leader. I didn't think if we were doing this. Focus when Edmund about mislabeled that we spend we spend spend lots of time discussing it because now you can make the argument that some people do. But it's because Jeremy Corbyn has turned into a mass membership party that you've got more people in and so therefore your chances of guessing people with with leading jeans views on a higher. But that was denial say that it may be a mean-spirited that he wouldn't apologize I think in terms of the physical stuff agree with Casey. That not only is he missing but some people earning less than eighteen thousand going to have to pay more tax on. Isn't being clear about how you pay for this Wall Street which I also just for lack of knowledge was quite terrifying actually to be honest to not understand that government bond issuing government bonds increases the government's. Dat I mean not is that would be alarming from union. The shadow cabinet. I think in terms of changing minds I think the big impact. I suspect that this will have is it again. Creates an obstacle to tactical voting. We discuss on the day. How Kuban is is the biggest obstacle to buy? And if you think about those remain people McCartan McCartan beaver dam probably tend to be quite high information voters. This back much haunted as as the Otago out and vote for Jeremy. Corbin's candidate is fine. I mean that is that is where is creating a problem for labor. which is they I mean? It is remarkable the position on the Disney neutral position on the brexit referendum. which didn't exactly come out of his interview? Britney we haven't even mentioned that yet because so many things to discuss but but do you think is hone on and how to a mansion but labor all going to be able to squeeze that would move down as much as they need to to Tori's a majority. Now I mean they will squeeze it down a bit more but I think that their ability to squeeze it down on the way over towards the squeeze the Brexit vote right down has definitely been limited buys. LISTEN TO SEAN and Katie. Possibly in reaction to how badly last night when Jeremy Corbyn this morning is making some pretty extraordinary claims about a secret plot his was not my to hugh sell out the NHL. Can you tell us about that. Yes this relates to dossier official documents. They've got hold them so I think it's completely on the spot and reaction to those last night but Otani Jeremy Corbyn trying to get back on the Front for and it's an attack on we've heard since the election was I called and probably actually a bit before that. which is Jeremy Corbyn and his party suggesting that the NHL would be privatized would have privatize part of and he had a Boris Johnson government? And the reason for this they say it's because it'd be a US trade deal and NHS to be part of this that Donald Trump wants to suggest that everything would be on the table but he learned very quickly backtracks and said if not be on the table so you can see what they think. That's a bit of space now. The documents that he was waving around launch for redacted so so we don't have the details but it's four hundred and fifty one pages and he Cuban says that they leave Boris Johnson's denials in absolute tatters as the NHS on the table and we'll be up for sale now what it relates to the fact that have been talks between Kane. US officials that was first revealed field by the Channel Four dispatches investigation but the most is being very quick since then to say this isn't about privatizing the NHL asked asked as we've said before this isn't part of it. I think Detroit toward documents to show the US taking much longer drug patents. which in theory could raise the cost of more drugs because it means fewer companies could start making drugs so that's one thing then that she onto yet heads toward response to but I'm pretty sure they say this is a complete fiction and is not on table save me might just keep going round and round but I do think that if you think of anything which could perhaps change the narrative or change the race for they right now if as we begin to think not going to be able to pitch themselves as their preemption some Liberal Democrat writers to any justice an issue which he liquor the voters care about most in this election and h s brexit? Go Up and down the low level pegging at the time so he can latch onto to that and the Tories cannot be trusted with that as you can see how that very good flavor and counselor that toward chances James. How should the Tories respond to this? I mean if they you say outright reject these claims I mean do they create a stick to beat themselves with later on in trade negotiations the NHL or parts of the stroke companies Axa Facility UK market may actually be on the table or do you think it's awfully impossible. Are they all going to say you. Notice as Liz draws the trees actually stories that you if you have to increase the drugs bunch of his trade. We won't do the deal now. I've you Corbin's play quite clever slice of hand here. Because let's imagine that we had a discussion about you. pangloss repairing on this poke off and Katie said I want five hundred pounds and episode and that was recorded in the minutes conversations private ed that was recorded in the midst of meeting. That would mean that you had agreed to pay eighty five under pine and episodes. It's an off and that's not what famous person grants and the minutes of these meetings say the US also along a patent on Nanga Patents on drugs but this is not the same as aim the UK has accepted that. ASK ASK SO I've we're GONNA see more and more of his labours. I desperately need to change the conversation and they need something themselves momentum because you know if you look at where now they need to fail to carry that there has been a bit of twenty in the polls and if they're going to carry me that own they need to basically winning the new cycle pretty much every day between now and December twelfth. I think it is fair to say but yesterday they did not win the new cycle a combination of a chief rabbis intervention and not disastrous interview. On answer. The question now becomes you can this as can kindness change change the conversation of electric back to you. On December Eleventh People Think there are twenty four hours to save inaccessible. Donald Trump. I mean they will also be hoping that Donald Trump's presence in under the NATO summit will give this story legs because trump hookah asthma. And you can't always be fairly safe. Bet The trump uptown. Don Trump will say something newsworthy. Also question I struggle to see these quite the game changer. That people think I think because it is first of all this isn't I'm we're going to sell you the Royal Free Hospital. It's a question about drug prices. And secondly I think it's GonNa I think the deal is so bad walk. I forgive you. Speak Document said some. US companies going to pay X.. As million to take over a chain of NHS hospitals but it'd be a slightly different proposition. I mean none of two people lots of people oh compatibles to vote took him out Turkey joining the right that it's an equivalent electoral tactic. I there's a difference which is a vote leave had the fact that it was. UK Government policy that Turkey should join the EU. Um that gave claim credence. which was it was the hypocrisy? In a way was government policy was to save. It will join the while doing very the suit facilitate that but it was still officially government policy is not currently officially government policy to sell vhs off the United States and so. I think that I think the challenge challenge traction because the Turkey charge the Turkey long even in the referendum campaign had was enough truth to work is crucial backing in fact to keep going. What about counter that people critical? Boris Johnson often make. which is that in? A Big Pharma is such a big lobbying force in the state in if the if if Congress really wants to trade deal with us they will be lobbyist. Make give them access to our markets. There is not necessarily any government policy. But it's just the way the cookie crumble. We don't currently have a trade deal with the United States. I think if you go into a situation what if you wanted to carry on down that long in why this was going to make drugs massively more expensive for the UK it wouldn't be in the UK's political interest. Sign the deal. This is what I've never understood about community is GonNa Privatize Jess. Do you really fatories replaced the private insurance baseball. They would then win. The election would fall about no and so then not going to do anything like this. I think we haven't had conversations about trade policy in this country forty years and so I think or these trade deals organ get all GonNa become controversial. I think that we now the reason why we will probably start off with museum and Australia and Canada. These assault AH harder countries. They don't quite but not the same as the big bogeyman of the US. And that's all I simply deals to do but I don't believe the UK will have no choice but design this deal whatever the US says. Because we think Carney have traded with the US so it's not like we do to make to get back to where we are now and Katie. Finally James mentioned momentum there for Labor just now seems that they're not doing crabby. Well not from. What about for the Tories do they need as much momentum do risk the lead ignoring as you guys? Were talking about on the podcast today. Well I think they'd need to basically keep the show on the road around eleven is at and they need not to to rise team much in Labor to rise in the Tories. Rose need to check how to vote. I think it's interesting that you have version in the southwest. There are lots of Tory. Lift Dan marginals now. I think DETTORI's feel as they have done a good job but things are going to be tight panning. Hi Hi this fools. I think there's a chance that you have a comfortable Tory majority. I think still a chance that things will little bit short and you hadn't. She can have a hung parliament. Because if you have the seven point lead written by yesterday it gets quite difficult to know if that gets you over the line. Sarah thing is interesting. That visiting South West ultra-mini nate where they feel they need to keep receipts and stop lived from taking off them to help their numbers and she moves a recent he had. He doesn't do the Airways had Matt Hancock own quite long. Nicky Morgan and I think that is very much aimed at trying to push the one nation conservative agenda. Ron Jacobs Moncus go missing Ryan. Having some of the more property brexit tick candidates. I Pretty Potala that. I think they feel they've done. They've done one half and now it's about Kinda zoning on the other and on I think we'll probably have a dare at probably but if you fraser in like listen to pollsters when we have you guys I m people which which is out tonight. Yes and we will have Marcus Roberts from YouGov joining us to talk about it onto northbound Gust Yep thanks Katie and thanks James and s James mentioned there is a NATO summit next week where Donald Trump will be visiting. And if you want to hear more about how that kids changed election calculus do tune into a weekly podcast. The addition well. I'll be speaking to USA. Christopher Maher form busted Washington and Kate Andrews on what can happen. Then thanks for listening and join us again tomorrow

Otani Jeremy Corbyn Katie Booze Donald Trump United States James One UK the Times Jeremy Corbyn Yousef Jamie Corbin government Jimmy Corbyn Boris Johnson Sarah Typical Jeremy Cubans Jeremy Guven YouGov Jeremy NHS Jeremy Cope
OK Google, What's A Monopoly

What A Day

19:00 min | Last month

OK Google, What's A Monopoly

"It's Wednesday October twenty first been killing Hughes, and I'm getting a second. This is what the honestly thought trump knew than to come at Lesley. STAHL. Dude will never win this fight where citizens of the United States of America. That is for sure Miss Stall. If you're interested I'm personally by each replace me unwind. Leslie. And getting the same number syllables so like it won't even be a problem. On today's show researchers in the UK plan to purposely infect people with covert four science than some headlines but first, the latest software industry which contributed over one hundred billion to the national economy. Last year is an open economic opportunity for any entrepreneur in America. Will the United States continuing continue? It's breathtaking technological advances. I believe can be answered resoundingly. Yes. Is. Not restricted by government that was Bill Gates testifying Congress in the nineties right before Microsoft's the Big Tech Titan of time faced a major federal antitrust case and yesterday something similar happened. The Justice Department filed a major lawsuit against Google following a fourteen month investigation it has to do with the topic we discussed on the show before tech companies and monopoly power. This case is the most significant action. The government has taken against a tech company probably since Microsoft. So let's get into the details of what we. Know so far yes. So the DOJ put out this fifty seven page complaint an overall. What they're saying is that Google is illegally trying to maintain its search dominance by using anticompetitive practices. So specifically, the DOJ saying that deals Google has with mobile carriers like and others to make Google search. The default option blocks out competitors, and the result is that eighty to ninety percent of all Internet searches done in the United States government Goule pretty good business. The suit also alleges that Google, takes the prophets it earns from being the. Dominant. Search engine an intern pays companies like at and T. Apple and others to be the default option other devices meaning google. Uses its dominance to stay dominant and box out other competitors and according to the DOJ about half a google search traffic came from apple devices into nineteen, and then Google pays apple eight to twelve billion a year to remain the default and search engine revenue is insanely lucrative for Google. The company made an estimated thirty, four billion plus in the US alone last year and that is only to. Grow in the coming years and the DJ also said that this is impacting consumers, right? That is right. So impacting consumers when it comes to data privacy, people are mostly stuck with Google data practices but DOJ says it's also hurting other competing tech companies and advertisers who are now pretty reliant on Google to reach their consumers, there's a really good recode article on all of this, which will put into the show but legally speaking the DOJ says, Google is violating the Sherman Antitrust Act which was passed over one hundred years ago. All right. So Google obviously not happy about this. Let's talk about what they're saying in response. Well so they compared the contracts that they have to other companies promoting products in one example cited in the blog post from the company's chief legal officer, they described their practices like cereal brands paying for good placement on grocery store shelves Google frosted flakes. What is the ultimate difference at the end of the day? I can't decide Google also argued that consumers use google search because they choose to use it and not because there aren't other alternatives available Google also said that they have competition from sites. Like Amazon. So going forward, we can likely expect Google parent. Company alphabet are gearing up for a costly and lengthy legal and lobbying effort potentially leaning on recent experience they've had in Europe there. The European Union has leveled three different anti-trust cases against them and this stretch on for a long time. So that lasts antitrust case that we talked about from the federal government was against Microsoft in nineteen eighty eight, and it took them years but ended up in a settlement which brings us to where all of this is potentially headed. So where does this case go and what happens if Google Loses It's a really good question. So apparently I at least the DOJ didn't propose remedies like saying Google have to end these contracts or sell off certain parts of the company, and while there's bipartisan agreement that in principle pursuing antitrust action against Google is good the speed with which it happened led some to speculate that Attorney General Bill Bar wanted to get this done in an expedited way before the election that could be to make the president happy which. Seems like a great share of what his job is. But if trump loses in November, the by administration could continue to pursue the case or refined according to experts recode spoke with then ask for Google and the consequences for them it could be very bad for their financial bottom line if they did have to break off the search engine part of their business. But as in the case Microsoft, it could also result in a settlement or Google can win. As is progress though there could be legislative action against Google there could be more suits from either the DOJ or Jeez so far. Eleven have signed onto this particular suit from the feds. It's also possible even likely Google could slow down his actions of buying company to avoid more criticism during office. So there's going to be a lot more to get to on the story and a lot we. Didn't cover today, but let's shift gears. Dacoven. And some interesting plans going on abroad Akilah what is happening there a lot. So and people braver than me news one, hundred volunteers in London will be deliberately infected with cove in nineteen to aid vaccine research starting in January if a plan by researchers gets approval from regulators officially, it's called a challenge trial and it will be the first of its kind. Normally it's against medical ethics to infect people with the potentially deadly disease that has no cure or super reliable treatment. There are many days where the Newsweek cover sounds like science fiction but this is random civilians being sent to space to blow up an asteroid. Armageddon. Level News I think. So here's what's happening. Volunteers will have a lab grown strain of the virus blown noses while Corentin in a biosecurity. Unit at Royal Free Hospital in, they'll undergo frequent testing over the course of two or three weeks. People have been generally afraid of even having to take Cova test but there are people in fact, more than thirty, eight, thousand people who volunteered to have the live virus given to them for a trial like this get in. Would you give it a shot? You know even just for the greater good. I don't WanNA close my eyes. I don't want to miss a thing I don't feel that I want a shot of Cova into my nose but. Let's talk about that greater good for a moment what are they looking for in these trials and how does it get us closer to eventual vaccine? So it's the first step in several more steps. It will in effect save time once there is a workable vaccine. So the initial phase of the study involving fewer than one hundred healthy young adults aged eighteen to thirty will seek to determine the minimal amount of virus necessary to cause an active measurable infection in their lungs later in the spring of the scientists. Volunteers that they will inoculate with promising vaccines and then expose them to the lowest determined viral load that can cause infection to see how all the vaccines can protect them. There will still be large phase three trials to prove safety of the vaccines in large populations but the British government hopes these challenge trials will help accelerate the study of vaccines that are further along in development and allow for sort of side by side comparison the immunologist that is leading the investigation said, the trial would be able. To tell within just ten weeks how effective a corona virus vaccine is by contrast studies that rely on chance exposure rather than deliberate infection can take months and tens of thousands of inoculations to prove efficacy. Yeah. That makes sense and there's more vaccine safety news on this side of the pond regarding the FDA and perhaps some skepticism around it. So what is that all about? Yeah I mean I think it's mostly about the trump administration ruining the credibility of every agency they've ever met but in California New pledging to have statewide reviews of any FDA approved vaccine before disseminating it to the public and governor Andrew. Cuomo in New York has said the same this comes after the trump administration's politicization of the virus and the never ending pushing of ineffective or mostly ineffective or still experimental treatments that continued to so so much distrust around their response. I know we're all tired of the BINGO card analogies of what we did or didn't have on our card considering that Bingo has a limited set of options but I gotta say California leading in any way around vaccines given the antivirus rep of the state you know it wasn't on my Bingo. Card. We will let you know when we find out more, but that's the latest. His Wednesday Wad squad and for today's Tim check, we're talking about a major moment in fashion history cold and flu medicine brand. Musa next drop their first line of clothing. Last night a collection of so-called sick wear like pajamas in jumpsuits that are made I guess to get boogers on. So the prices are no joke with a hoodie costing between one hundred and one hundred and forty dollars. But remember that you're paying for the label, which is our beloved Nasty Lookin Musa next man. So giddy now that pharmaceutical brand slash fashion crossovers are a thing which drug company closed you want to get your hands on. I really feel that we must take a stand and say. We should not be giving pharmaceutical companies money for these things one hundred and forty dollars for this company for a Hoodie, with the gross sky in the SNOT booger flubber man in the hat, there must be some demand. I don't know that there is demand. But. If I guess if I had to listen I think that if they're gonNA make these clothing products, the products should also do the drug do so if you know in this case like put the Hoodie on I guess. Up what she got going on in. Your system. If that were the case by the transit property. I would maybe get something that is like as equal footing where we put me to sleep and I can have a on off switch for for going to bed. But yeah, these companies. I think that you know you gotta you gotTa. You gotta give shots. Yes. Yeah. I just I just think that they they don't deserve our money I'm were crusading against these companies but Same question. Akilah what what company do want? Yeah. I mean I think that like as far as fashion goes, it's hard to say like I would get some you know asthma inhaler brand shoes because that's how my asthma is triggered is working out. So like you know maybe people would be like, oh, she's got the qbr kicks that leads the likely to fall down after running for a black or you know maybe some all heat pads. Your period just things just spitballing expand on the brand but I wouldn't mind having those things. I think mostly just having like literal Flim on my body feels. Feels like a hard pass. Yeah. It's very much like you're doing a bit and it's like, who are you doing the bit for? No one's GONNA. See you in your jammies that have the sick mucus man on them. This is an inside joke for your mirror. So if you WanNa, if you WANNA do it go for it. Well. Just like we check our temps stay safe. Don't have be covered in Mucus I. Guess we'll be back after ads. What's up Wads Wild? What Day is brought to you by do the work in the last year, we've all been surprised by a lot. One of the biggest surprises them more and more people actually want to talk about race talking about race is hard but these conversations aren't impossible. They're necessary. Do the work is a new weekly podcast hosted by actor and activist Brandon Kyle Goodman invites all to have honest conversations about race each episode you'll meet two people, friends, partners, Co workers who have an uncomfortable offensive, and sometimes even racist moment that they want to work through Brandon along with author and racial. Justice Educator Debbie. Will untangle these moments. So we can all learn how to have these tough conversations with our own loved ones, and we'll get real takeaways on how to be better allies in our own lives. Everyone has bias. So talk about it join the conversation on, do the work available wherever you get your podcasts. Is, brought to you by Amazon. What the Constitution means to me one of the things I, really Miss Right now is attending live theater and I honestly do not know what I'm going to have a chance to do that again that's why I got super excited when I heard the Amazon prime video filmed the new play by Heidi shreck what the Constitution means to me. You can stream it now on Amazon prime video which three with your prime subscription when Heidi. Shreck was fifteen, she used to give speeches about the US Constitution. To Win Scholarship money for college and in the play she reenacts her bad teenage romance with the Constitution and then examines it from her forty something perspective using personal stories from three generations of women in her own family for writing is very funny and inspiring. So it is curtains up on Amazon prime video APP. You can see a Tony nominated Broadway play wherever you are. You'll understand why the New York Times called, what the Constitution means to me the best and most important play of the season now streaming only on Amazon Prime Video Let's wrap up with some headlines head aligns. An anonymous grandeur and Briana Taylor's case said, the jury wasn't given an opportunity to consider homicide charges against the police officers. The Juror wrote yesterday that the panel was only presented with wanton endangerment charges against one of the officers. Grand jury members apparently asked about additional charges but we're told there wouldn't be any because the prosecutors didn't feel that they would stick. This came after a Kentucky judge ordered grand jury records from the investigation to be released allowing juror to speak publicly about the case. This is unusual ruling made partly so that the public decide for themselves whether. Attorney. General Daniel Cameron Misrepresented Trial Cameron previously fifteen hours of audio from the case proceedings, but it did not include the jurors deliberations or the prosecutor's recommendations. Ireland will be the first country in Europe to reimpose a national shutdown as cove in nineteen cases. Sore across the entire continent starting Thursday the country will enter its highest level of lockdown restrictions for six weeks. So that means bars and restaurants will offer only take out options and residents must stay within three miles of their home with exceptions made for things like essential work, medical appointments and visiting a grave spooky but I might also say beautiful the number. Of covid nineteen cases in Ireland has increased by seventy five percent. Since last month one, hundred, fifty, thousand people are expected to lose their jobs in the coming days with the government announced plans to up its unemployment checks and asking commercial landlords to give their tenants break from rent the government relief effort is expected to cost over two hundred million dollars per week. Nice to see some people benefit from covid relief packages even if they live five thousand miles away. Even, the most secretive Oregon can't stay hidden forever scientists in the Netherlands announced the discovery of a new body part last month to small salivary glands that until now went unnoticed near the base of the human skull I feel. So blessed to be able to say these words, Mama's got a brand New England. As, well, as a SPEC-, he's we've all been sleepwalking through life thinking we have just three sets of salivary glands. Those nightmare days are behind us. Now after what could be the first identification of a new organ almost three hundred years spit glands aren't anyone's favourite. They have a special role making it easier for us to speak, eat fight off infections and absolutely whale on the sex. They can be damaged during radiation therapy like the kind one might receive for head or neck cancer. Now that doctors know where the new glands are, they might be able to avoid them during treatment. They're still much to be learned about our newest organs which has been christened to Barrio glands by the team that discovered them, which they had contacted us before settling on that name though I would have gone with glendow leaks or. Maybe Flannel Calories Ian or Gladys Knight and SPITS. Marlon Brando plenty more. Gland vines. Glandular Lougee Lapasset it just spitballing and I feel like he just really missed out. You know I think the important thing to remind everybody is that this was discovered in the Nether? Glands Thing to to mention to folks when they're hearing this news in a year armed militias we're now seeing paramilitary groups in places. We never could have expected specifically at the home of British off Rocker Phil Collins, which is currently under occupation by his ex-wife, her new husband and a crew of at least four armed guards that won't let him in. Court documents recently unearthed by the Miami Herald Collins is suing to get back into his thirty three million dollar Florida Mansion, which he says is one hundred percent owned by him even though they a different house in Las Vegas Collins Ex and new husband had been staying in the Florida House for at least two and a half months and have blocked real estate agents from showing it. Disabled surveillance cameras change security codes. Wow Out. This style of conflict resolution is called the Waco method and it's almost never a good idea simply safe you slept on this one and myself and Mr. Collins very upset with you. Takeover occurred in August after collins allegedly broke up with him via text, and that's a fitting modernized adaptation of a real rumor from Nineteen eighty-four that Collins dumped his second wife via fax. How you know the Genesis of this story is outstanding and those are that. One thing before we go, there are less than two weeks left to get out the vote our friends votes of America have made it easier than ever to find remote in-person volunteer to these and you have to do is go to vote save America Dot. COM SLASH Yeah you can find everything from phone banking, the text banking to staffing voter protection hotline. So go votive America dot com slash volunteer to find all the fun ways to get involved between now and election day. 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Why do some people think cannabis can cure cancer?

Stuff They Don't Want You To Know Audio

1:00:29 hr | 10 months ago

Why do some people think cannabis can cure cancer?

"Stuff they don't want you to know is brought to you by war of the Worlds Planet. Earth is under attack in the invasion has begun more of the world is now a new original series on epic starring Gabriel Byrne and Elizabeth McGovern when mankind has all but wiped out by a devastating attack. The lone survivors are left with a burning in question. Who are these invaders? And why are they. Hell bent on our destruction ordinary people face extraordinary circumstances and fight for survival when the world world is no longer our own watch. War of the worlds February sixteenth at nine eight central only on epochs. Hey guys it's bobby bones host the bobby bones show and I'm pretty much always sleepy because I wake up at three o'clock in the morning a couple hours later I get all my friends together. We get into a room and we do a radio show wish our allies we tell our stories we try to find as much good in the world possibly can and we look through the news of the day that you'll care about also also your favorite country. Artists are always stopping by hang out and share their lives and music to wake up with a bunch of my friends on ninety eight point. Seven W M Z Q in Washington in DC or wherever the rotation on the iheartradio APP from UFO's to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. Let's turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know a production of iheartradio's how stuff works. Hello welcome back to the show. My name name is Matt. My name is no they called me bed and we are joined as always with our sue producer pulled mission control decades. Most importantly you argue. You are here sure and that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know now we're going to talk about something that For for a lot of a lot of straight shooting in kids in middle school and maybe even high school was a terrifying subject today. We're talking about marijuana that's right. Conspiracy realist left hand. Cigarettes the devil's tobacco Uncle Jimmy's brain medicine nap nuggets. Yeah pot. I'm a big fan of the devil's vols lettuce. That's one yeah. Yeah Yeah Yeah Grass stuff that I was terrified of when I was in middle school high school school. You've nailed it already. Did your parents make reefer madness. Man No no they. Just don't be messing around with that stuff matt and I said okay. They said pimp belongs in a necklace. There's some some people came to my school and they showed me a bunch of stuff about how bad it was. The police had guns. And they're like we will use these on you. If you smoke this wacky Tabacchi and I was like okay. They came to my school and brought a giant like Hunter S. Thompson style. Suitcase full of drugs you and I was like I want to try that one and that one and that one it just wasn't a very good That they didn't do a good scared straight for is in my experience. Yeah yeah as an award-winning SAS. For Dare I can tell you is that stuff doesn't stick with you forever. I had a similar experience to you know. I had a our local law enforcement brought in like try full. Yes wooden contraption and then they passed around little vials of things like this is what cocaine looks like. This is what crack looks like and someone said are they the same axle question. You take them differently. So Oh you snort cocaine and then you smoke crack but you had. They basically taught us how to use drugs while under the guise of telling us how to recognize slim. I have to imagine that the purpose of all that is to create a network of informants at the school where some of the kids would be able all to notice. Let's party if something like this was going down. And they could mention it to somebody. Authority figure physical symptoms symptoms. Yeah Yeah you know it was well intentioned in What was it gruff? McGrath was his trinity who Scruff mcgruff thank you prime. He took a bite took a bite out of it. Sure Illinois six zero six five two ways every really made an impression on you. Oh Wow that was deep in there. It's it's weird because for many people growing up in the West especially in the US us Marijuana was vilified for a long time and it retained this This strange prominent position in culture and folklore Zeitgeist and as a kid. You may have learned about marijuana in the sort of boogeyman way. Like stay away from it. You know Sandy Jenkins injected one marijuana and then committed Dolphin genocide. Lapd these very strange Exaggerated exaggerated propagandistic stories. That came again from a good place. They th the assumption there was marijuana was a gateway drug and try. Marijuana would lead people inevitably to do things like heroin various opioids and on and on and on but we didn't really get a lot of answers about this stuff and now that more more and more states or decriminalizing or even legalizing marijuana then more and more countries are as well they Portugal. Well we have to reevaluate this stuff and we ask ourselves Increasing questions like what if marijuana is in some way short hindrance but what if it's also also helpful an answer that we have to. I figure out what we'd actually is and how it works. So here are the facts. I'll start here And when we think about the origins where did this plant actually come from What part of our planet did it begin to grow or evolve into this thing? Well what we know as we'd is cannabis sativa we believe. At least a human humanity believes that originated somewhere in India specifically in a region agent just north of the Himalayan Mountains You know we think we we know I'm just gonNA listen things off your we know that it is one of those plants called an annual that means it grows in once a year essentially. It has a cycle where it comes in. It will flower essentially once a year. They can grow to a height of around eight to twelve feet. That's a four four to five point. Four meters it's pretty tall. That's actually really Dang tall and and there are even reports that these things can grow as high as twenty twenty five feet. That's huge there's another variety The INDIKA I suppose so. I'm not sure I'm not sure I honestly don't know if it's cannabis indica if that's what it's called or is just an indica. I don't know the difference while Indika you can remember The effects of India covers a sativa because indika means into couch. We're not talking about the effects yet. Knoll how sorry I was just. I think that's an excellent very well. Don't it's really. I don't know there's not. There's not really an opposing one for Sativa. Sativa is the one that makes it gives you a little more energy and they refer to it as more of a a mental high whereas indicates a lot more like it makes you lethargic and chill. Thank you for putting in all the research no worries. I like to help the whole make up that set parlance of our time. The whole boy the indika variety whatever that exactly entails is going to be shorter than the other varieties. These more sativa varieties shirt and as you said. Being that's annual. It has as a season when it's outdoors. It grow it blooms those flowers. You mentioned map bloom from late summer to mid fall and then of course surprised a lot of people grow this stuff inside to greenhouses There the closet of their Stepdad's a summer cottage or something so my house near where I live because I swear if I opened my door just smells like marijuana. It's true it's true it's also you know you may have heard the rap lyrics Referred to as Indo. Oh It's good to consume along with some GIN and juice. What about sour diesel? That's just another stranger astrum so zoo. It's weird because also cite sites have not condoning legally growing pot in your house legally growing in your house but If you are running a big grow operation just be aware in areas where marijuana is still illegal. Police when investigating grow houses are able to monitor energy usage. And that's how a lot of people get popped big spikes in energy specific times. That's a real red flag. The authorities right exactly crotchety neighbors opening their door. And going again or crotchety neighbors becoming inexplicably cool and picking up. They're Bass Guitar after years and years of not playing. You know what I mean yes. It's pretty funny. Oh just in Los Angeles as we all were and I brought my daughter along and I had to have the marijuana. I WanNa talk with her because of the way. The elevators all smelled in the hotel. Whoa she's just like what? What is that and I was like well? Honey there's this thing called marijuana you might have heard about it from the rap music in California. It's perfectly legal so you're going to. You're going to smell that smell. And she did and so I think it's better for her to know armed with the facts. Sure Yeah and then emphasized that that's not the case everywhere exactly exactly but also you know it is more of a conversation now that people are having having with kids because the stigma is sort of been lifted somewhat or it's in the process of being lifted so it's a little more of a conversation like you would have about. Don't drink beer beer till you're twenty one or used things responsibly etc.. So let's talk about. Why all these people out in California and across this nation in the World Colorado Colorado are are smoking these flowering plants and Oregon? Well yeah that's the interest now and Chicago that's the interesting thing While we were in the midst of a paradigm shift a sea-change with the the US attitude about marijuana on a state by state not a federal level yet. The thing is there are a lot of claims about this stuff because we don't still one hundred percent understand absolutely absolutely how it works we get most of it. We get the gist of how marijuana works. But we still have a lot of questions as a species. And that's because marijuana on a doesn't doesn't get you Doesn't give you these effects stuff. We collectively referred to as getting high because of a single whole substance. There is there are a couple of substances that are sort of like the front men of the band of the lead singers or the you know the first chair Violin L. in this Chemical Orchestra Symphony but marijuana actually contains hundreds of different things and of those hundreds of chemicals. A hundred and nine hang of them fit into a category called cannabinoid. It's that's the stuff for which cannabis sativa is named. The Noida was named after the Domino's pizza awesome mascot annoyed. He seems like he'd had a little bit too much of the old devils lettuce. If you ask me yeah maybe it was. I thought maybe it was a mispronunciation of nerve nerd. Also possible no it could happen. Yeah Guy that guy was a freak donors enjoy yoyos pizza pizza. Oh yeah like I just went for the. I was way way past the age when I should figure this out but it wasn't until two or three years ago. Maybe that it hit me Billon Ted. Worst donors as a kid. I just thought they were goofy fun. Guys right eight nine but then you watch it again. And you're like oh they just edited out all the parts with. You're actually smoking but these are clearly. These guys are high. There's no subtle references to getting high or like roll down a window and smoke billows out none of that they tried to keep it. PG I didn't watch the whole thing back again but I would. I don't know it's also coming back bill and Ted's coming back so maybe maybe now that the conversation has changed they can be a little more than about the the Muse of wild stallions alliens quick aside. I saw that picture of Adam driver next to a picture of a reason. This said Adam driver looks like somebody tried to draw kiani reeves. Yeah there's also with a cat that looks like Adam drive also. I cat's intense but yeah so so we know we know some of of the chemistry here. We know that every time someone ingest marijuana in some form smoking vaping Drinking tea of your fancy that there is one chemical will that comes into play. Yes delta nine tetrahydrocannabinol well yeah or thc you see and other chemicals that enter the body and they make their way through the bloodstream. Right to the old brain and then eventually to the rest of the body and Dan that. THC is the most powerful chemical in marijuana. That's credited for giving you that high associated with the drug I I I have to ask before we continue. How many people do you think are are high and listening to this show right now? I'm GonNa say AH fifty percent. Well you know no judgment if you are just being a safe place we can't tell if you're wondering during like honestly can't tell right now if you're high so yeah I don't even know if I'm hiring but that that That person just walked past you they know. Oh Yeah such evil thing to do to somewhat. I'm kidding nine. Spent now they don't know so so you're right though. There is this protagonist chemical this prime player. THC Here's what happens long story short. Everybody's brain has these cells. They're called neurons. They process process all this information. For you the reason you are as smart as you are there chemicals called neurotransmitters right and there's a spacer Acer synapse between every neuron that that you have right and these neurotransmitters for to build a bridge. They they bridge the gap between in your neurons and they bind to these things protein receptors. All of this allows different functions of your body and your brain to be turned on and off like in the book of Mormon. Turn it off. Like a light. Switch right some neurons have thousands and thousands of receptors that are specific to particular kinds lines of bridge builders neurotransmitters and chemicals they can enter into your brain like thc can sort of pull a d'appel ganger effect on your bridge builders on your neurotransmitters so they can mimic some of the things that your ordinary neurotransmitter would do or they can block some of the bridge-building effects that would normally happen and This this is interesting because these neurons They're not. They're not all created equally. In terms of the kind of stuff they're receptive to so in three areas of the human brain the hippocampus the cerebellar in the Basal Ganglia there are high concentrations of cannabinoid receptors. And that's why that's why marijuana has these predictable addictive effects for a lot of people. Yeah particularly in this one part of your brain called the hippocampus. It's in your temporal lobe. The Front of your brain here and and You know what deals with short term memory. Free at yeah. You may have noticed If you have ever attempted two to tango with this particular substance that is one thing that occurs and also I mean there are a couple other places in your brain. Also the Sara Bellum and the Basal Ganglia which is just a fun thing to say when thc see binds with the receptor that are inside that hippocampus. It really does mess with your short term memory. Because it's again like Ben was explaining there it it is is pretending or your brain those receptors in your brain. Think that you're like stuff is being turned on or it's blocking things being turned on their It's just it's very odd. It's very very odd that a chemical can do that. It also messes with your coordination. And that's where you're talking about the Sara Bellum And then if you go to the that other fun thing Basal Ganglia this. This is something that directs unconscious muscle movements which is one of the reasons. Fins Motor coordination becomes a little bit of y'all if anyone listening ever noticed but motor coordination will become a little more slow or at least stay perceived Salinas even. Yeah that's one of the reasons why you know obviously should operate a motor vehicle. Yes when you're high but it also makes me think has anybody got an a speeding ticket when they're high. We'd I feel like when I've what I've known. People were obviously high and they were driving. Drive it a little slower agreed. Yeah no that's the thing you know. And that's why it's always so funny when we get a bad rap as being some kind of crazy dangerous juris drug like that can make you do terrible things. You know a lot of propaganda stuff that was in reefer madness for example that accused it of causing people to commit murder are and You know rape women. Potentially this is all from this propaganda film but you know if anything it just causes you to be a little sluggish Giggle at stupid could stuff and like you said maybe drive a little on the slow side. so yeah that's it's it's definitely innocuous in that respect But obviously it is a psychoactive drug that changes the way your brain perceives the world and therefore you absolutely shouldn't ever put yourself in a situation where you could potentially those slowdowns. Oh downs could cause harm to yourself or others Absolutely okay so how do we use this. Just assuming ground level if there's anyone listening lean and never knew you're embarrassed to ask you. Were afraid that your local FBI. NSA Intern get mad at you for googling it we will tell you the by far the most common way people use marijuana now is through. Smoking and smoking is the most common way. Because it's also the fastest way or was for longtime the fastest way to teach in those other chemicals into the bloodstream. When you smoke marijuana it goes to your lungs? Your lungs are lousy with Alveoli. These are the tiny air sacs. Were that gas exchange occurs. They have a ton of surface area. And they help they make it possible for the teach- see and other stuff to into your body and the absorb the smoke mere seconds after inhalation. vaporisers do Similar I think they they heat the substance such that they vaporize the active ingredients but they don't actually burn anything so inhaling it instead of smoking and of course you can also eat marijuana. This is This is something that people have Often underestimated the effects of what would be called an edible. Because it's it's a slow burn right. It is because it requires your body to actually metabolize belies The active chemicals in the same way that you would get nutrients from food so that's a slower process the same way as taking medication. It doesn't doesn't you right away unless you say chewed up or put it under your tongue like some fast-acting pills that are required to really kick in if you're having an anxiety attack for example they tell take your anxiety medicine either put it under your tongue doubling Willie and that would Kick in much faster but if you eat say a baked good that has. THC cooked him with it. It's take Depending on how much food is already in your stomach for example various amounts of time. And you know the old joke is You can always eat more more. He can never eat less so always smart to pace yourself in that respect and not think that you should just eat an entire Brownie because you also know that you don't you don't don't know what the concentration is for example like how much was cooked in concentrated one little bite of a baked could be. It could be incredibly potent especially especially if you don't have the benefit of getting it somewhere where it's legal where you have you know information on the packet of how much is in it and how many milligrams for example or in a particular dose so Handle with care. Caveat immature handle the care but also I think we're all aware at this point that the major major reason that cannabis is legal in several states in this country in several places around the world is because of the purported ED medical effects of this substance and taking it either through smoking it or inhaling it or eating it or you know through through various salves and other things that the purported medical effects their outweigh any dangers that may exist around the substance because of you know the dangers of reported afforded in order to get it as a schedule. One substance in this country So what we're GONNA do now is as we continue through. This episode is look at those beneficial effects medical effects and claims that maybe go beyond what you've heard and to do that. We'll have to examined the difference between two acronyms in two very similar substances teach see and CBD will do that. After a word from our sponsor planet earth is under attack and the invasion has begun. War of the world is now a new original series on epic starring Gabriel Byrne Burn and Elizabeth McGovern when astronomers detect a transmission from another galaxy. It is definitive proof of intelligent extraterrestrial life. The world's population weeds for further contact with baited breath as the clock runs out. Mankind is all but wiped out by a devastating attack with only pockets if humanity left in an eerily deserted world the invaders hunt and kill those left alive leaving the survivors to ask a burning question. Who are these attackers? And why are they hell. Oh bent on our destruction now. Ordinary people are forced into extraordinary circumstances as the invaders ambitions have only just begun and the world is no longer our own watch. Four of the World February sixteenth at nine eight central only on epochs. Thanks for listening to this show. But there's another one you might enjoy. Ted Talks daily it features new ideas from Ted every weekday on pretty much any subject you can imagine. Recent talks include Astronomer Mike Brown on the ninth planet that may be lurking somewhere in our solar system or a behavioral economists. On why why we all make such terrible decisions and a lot more you can find. Ted Talks daily on the iheartradio APP. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows we've returned so cbd breath THC as the same chemical formula but the atoms are arranged differently. And this very this tiny variance Sayi- Causes to have that psychoactive effect. That Matt you're mentioning earlier and CBD again because of that A slight difference in design does not have the psychoactive effect. This means that if someone ingest. CBD for Nina those medicinal purposes. They're more likely to. They're they're likely to experience a relief in their pain or discomfort but they're likely have less of a noticeable deterioration of their cognitive abilities or change in their cognitive abilities. And this is funny because this came into play for our state here in the US in Georgia the southeastern us where marijuana is still it should say illegal throughout the state I believe in the city of Atlanta Atlanta. It's decriminalized which is put it on the level of a parking ticket huge Asterik at the officers discretion right on which kind of officer Sir you run into. What's interesting too because there we talked about this in the past but there were some cases in the past here in Georgia Outside of Atlanta Atlanta like kind of in some of the suburbs believe might have been in Gwinnett county which is a little bit more of a bedroom community. I guess of Atlanta but there are certain officers that take specific diffic- training courses that claim to teach them how to identify someone who is quote unquote high under the influence of marijuana. By the way there is move. Ooh and like you know they can literally without giving a test. This particular training Qualifies them to say your high on weed. And I'm taking you to jail because you're driving influence. There are some pretty nasty cases where you know. They were supposedly got it wrong. You know and someone went to jail and the problem with. THC Is it stays in your system for a very very very long time so you could be accused of being under the influence of the drug in the moment and you might. Well have it in your system but there's no way to pinpoint as to win that instance of I'm consuming. That substance happened so at the officers. Discretion is a very big caveat. Yes and the strange thing about the way. CBD became or THC. Whatever you WANNA call became decriminalized here in Georgia The the streets think about it is that even Supporters in the local legislature made a weird semi puritanical panicle argument and he said okay. This cannabinoid oil. They would call. It does have the ability to reduce symptoms of the pain and and they also claimed I think may be reduced likelihood of seizures in certain types of epilepsy and their big selling Liam point when they spoke to the voting public was. Don't worry no one's going to get high. It's just going to relieve pain. Essentially the argument is. Don't worry no one is going to have fun. Yeah that's the way it was presented and I'm being a little cavalier there. But obviously they were saying that because people will get these medical or medicinal benefits of this substance the week. What if they don't get high when that happens? We are much less concerned about things. That propaganda has historically tied to this vision of marijuana. Dangers of addiction addiction. Criminal acts here stealing radios and pulling copper wire out houses because I need my fix six of Maryland marijuana and inject my marijuana unit it is yeah. That's a whole discussion. We have later just about supposedly not being able to get addicted to the substance because there's not habit forming but then also this the societal or normalized like use of this in how it becomes ingrained in a just your everyday life and just what the difference between that and addiction. Well there's there's there's physical addiction and there's mental addiction or just enjoying something and enjoying the way it is part of your life maybe take that a little too far and it does become a crutch of some sort or another especially when you're talking about something like CBD that doesn't have that the fun part right but it has the the medicinal effect of Painkiller. Well I would I would say you know. Addiction is widely misunderstood and the mental aspect is just often justice powerful. Well you know what I mean. That's why people get addicted to routines that have no no real physiological impacts right so this is strange because now we have to now. We have to address something that is a controversial ongoing topic in the Debate about marijuana here in the United States and to be fair abroad and that is this. Let's call it medicine or Mumbo jumbo so there are the people who say okay. Marijuana should be legal should only be medicinal. There are people who say marijuana should be you know. It's Katie Bar the doors recreational. You're over a certain age. Do what that you want forward the future. It's a brave new world. And have you ever really listen to music. If you've ever felt that groove this this is what they they do. They point to research into the perceived medical benefits of marijuana and there are some well established aspects here the most common one by far the most common Argument for medical marijuana in the. US is for pain control. Don't we'd no matter how strong it is right. How strong people tell you it is? It's pain relieving effect is not going to be strong enough to get you through. Say say the severe pain of instantly being in a car accident as reason why. EMT's don't automatically give people in the intensely traumatic car accidents a weed Brownie. You know what I mean I I it still is effective. Though for chronic pain. Chronic pain is a huge problem for millions of people in this this country especially as people age. It is whether you love it or hate it or don't care Marijuana and it's different carribean products are all safer than opiates. You can't really overdose on it addiction. Debate aside it. It is far less addictive than an opioid. It can also People argue they'll see it'll take the place of things like advil or Aleve if you can't can't use those things due to you know they're deleterious effects on the kidneys or you know maybe they they Interact with pre existing ulcers or something nick and marijuana for a long time has been reported to do a ton of other helpful. Things like easing just nerve. Pain in general like that chronic pain or just other general pain is said to be able to act as a muscle relaxant and people. Actually we know that it's been shown to lessen tremors in Parkinson's disease and as we mentioned The seizures in epilepsy like it has has been shown to do this. And you know it does feel as though at least if you're looking at it from the reporting and the scientific you know Reports that have been coming out on it for years and years and years now it seems to have lots of beneficial effects. And you know I mean the old Getting the munchies quality of of weed is actually a very very powerful and important thing for folks who are going through cancer treatment. Let's say who don't WANNA eat because they're constantly nauseous or they're I just don't feel well you know you don't want you don't have an appetite if you're constantly in pain and marijuana absolutely does give you an increased appetite. Yeah Yeah it's In addition to being a muscle relaxant And a general pain of pain listener amazed In something that can generally suppress pain it. Also suppresses nausea it relieves I pressure decreases muscle spasms simulates. The appetite stops convulsions. And and has apparently can go a long way toward eliminating menstrual pain. This this full disclosure there was an illuminated global unlimited commercial for some related products however due to the sticky federal status of marijuana. They pulled out at the last second so sticky keep federal status of the sticky. Yeah it's also because of these therapeutic effects used to treat symptoms symptoms of conditions that are often incurable. We're talking about AIDS for example right as you said your stomach feels a little better. You're finally able to eat glaucoma. Glaucoma and epilepsy and even multiple Sclerosis Multiple Sclerosis in particular is an area where there there aren't return of options for treatment. You know People who've taken things like Neurontin Lyrica or opiates find them to be effective but have to also have this massive sedative effect right or sedating effect. So they'll say look. I could take these drugs. That will knock me out like I've been hit with You know Industrial Level Trailblazer. But if I ingest marijuana of in some way I can and do whatever I was doing beforehand or whatever I wanted to do and I don't feel completely out of it I don't feel like I'm on a mandatory forced nap where I'm L. Mentally checked out. I still feel present but these claims remain controversial and part of it is because there are a ton of for everyone when scientifically supported claim about benefits of this substance. There are ten twelve twenty five fifty fifty seven sixty nine nice Different ideas or claims about other stuff that marijuana can purportedly do and to some people make no mistake marijuana transcends medicine entirely like it's a it's a substantial part of the religion of Rastafarianism. You know and people will say okay. Okay this is a holy thing to me. I take this in some way. As part of my Religious Practices Right so marijuana a uh it occupies a unique space in the world of drugs or sacrament but of course there is a conspiracy peercy because some people say you know yeah. Y- marijuana may do more wavy my finger in the air here again. Marijuana may not helping but it does more than that you see they. Argue marijuana has been unfairly vilified and banned not because it is dangerous to humans but because it is instead dangerous to the financial status quo of things like big Pharma and the health care industry. We'd they they argue can actually cure cancer. Many of us are saying wait. What that's what this episode is about? Yes the title guys. Should people forgot because of the short term memory loss thing you know because everybody listening to this is fifty fifty percents. Here's where it gets crazy. It is true well it least. It's true that some people believe marijuana can cure cancer. We have a specific example. Just to give you a more humanistic qualitative or anecdotal account amount here. So in two thousand fourteen a then sixty three year old gentleman by the name of Mike Cutler claimed that cannabis oil cured him of cancer of the liver which he'd been diagnosed with in two thousand and nine actually received a liver transplant. The same year in the cancer came back in late. Twenty twelve after he learned about cannabis oil from a youtube video. No less Sure as Dr was all about that you know. It's like Youtube or web. MD doctors worst enemy Cutler said that he began to take the oil and his pain disappeared in only three days then and a biopsy at the Royal Free Hospital in London prove that his cancer cells had in fact vanished Yep and that was great for a time but he got diagnosed with lung cancer in July twenty fourteen and unfortunately really he passed away in two thousand fourteen in December so this is just one example and there are multitudes of similar stories perhaps Some some stories that will come to us directly from you listening in some of these stories. Here's the thing a lot of them end with if someone Someone ultimately dying of cancer because it POPs up somewhere else in their body but in other stories there are inexplicable remissions and it does seem that the cancer cells not only disappear like they did the Royal Free Hospital London but that they disappear for good and this leads to these conspiratorial claims. And they're very. They're very familiar. The differ a little bit in the specifics. But if we look at it academically we we see the same trends time and time again. And it's this many people who believe cannabis can cure all or some types of cancer that have functions as a panacea For cancer also believe that this is not there. They're not some like a person who's hip to a secret truth of the world. They believe this is common knowledge at the top of the medical industry and the argument goes like this. It's more profitable for big Pharma or Insert Medical Boogeyman here to sell sell synthetic drugs or even substances that are derived ultimately from cannabis and instead of treating patients lock them into a subscription service. Yeah we talked about this many times on this show before he cons true well the concept yes on the base level. It is true that if you can lock someone into a subscription service of any kind it is a better business model for you and that it goes for everything from the media you consume to the drugs you take to the sickness you have in this case in in a very messed up way. It makes more sense to sell someone a monthly service than to cure them so they don't have to buy anything from you ever again right in front of a business. Perspective from capitalists perspective. Why would someone would accompany allow a plant that grows wild and is readily cheaply available To to eat into your profits when you all you had to do all you have to prime the pump a little bit with some lobbying millions and make sure that the plant is illegal You can do it through racist propaganda or you can just sponsor The right politicians to push that bill through true and then after that plants illegal you can get a loophole in the bill whereby you sell Proprietary expensive derivatives and. They're the only only game in town. You know what I mean so you could. You could pay I. I don't know how much people pay for weed. But you know you could pay by by like joint and and smoke it or you could get a One hundred plus dollar a month prescription. That just kept you popping pills calls to repress your chronic pain while not at all curing the condition. So it's bad for the people but it's great for the companies in the fact that this does not seem outright impossible the fact that like you said that there are similar cases. Where stuff like this has happened? Even if they don't evolve we'd that fact disturb everyone listening you know we no longer think of this as some way out there quote unquote tin foil. Hat conspiracy theory. We all listen to this and we think of stories we've heard in recent years ago. Yeah I don't know it does does feel at least to make a lot more sense than one would hope but is it true will dive into that after a word from our sponsor the seventh daughter. I brought you here to prepare you to condition your mind and body. ooh So while the magic it is the family trade. I'm teaching you so that you will have the skills to survive. And that is a gift from your family that I have been entrusted to deliver the seventh daughter. Listen on the iheartradio APP Apple. Oh podcasts or wherever you get your podcast hi everybody my name is Max Homa and I'm shame bacon and we want to tell you about our new podcast called grip with Maxima and Shane Vega the PGA Tour champion and a guy that has dreamed his whole life to be on the largest stage compete in the biggest events and have a chance at making history. Sport has been a bit of a roller coaster for me as a professional. I know the only reason you chase this dream of being a pro as you could one day become a crossover media darling youtube could be co host of a podcast and that dream name is now a reality Max take it through life on the PGA tour and our goal is to allow you in as we both pay our respective rents and bills from this silly sport. We can't help but love to do us a favor. Download and subscribe to get a grip with maximum and shame bacon. It's our opportunity to bring to life the conversations we are already having having the ransom tangents. We will tackle the best and worst parts of being a professional golfer way. More best parts Bro. Listening follow get a grip of Maximun Shane. Bacon on the iheartradio radio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcast. Alright we are back in L. Let's jump right into this Endless let's Kinda aimed at the more skeptical people in the audience. If if you don't mind everyone listening you were speaking with you now. That's the not high ones right. How well I don't know I? It just depends. But let's let's consider just this concept concept of an industry specifically health care industry of some sort of big Pharma suppressing cannabis without some kind of miraculous cancer cure without being a cancer cure right so let's look to twenty sixteen because that year the Guardian found that some farm pharmaceutical companies were. You're putting money a lot of money just pouring it into the fight to keep weeding illegal. And they weren't alone. Other companies that sell the product that is meant to have a similar effect alcohol companies. Were doing the same thing so strangely enough if they kind of alcohol and healthcare found themselves on the same side right big alcohol I guess in Big Pharma. Yeah big booze about Yeah yeah this. This is the the weirdest thing because their motivation. From what we can tell L. seems to be less a matter of hiding. Some miraculously cure am more a matter of protecting their financial interests protecting their market. H-share in what. I'd like to call the intoxication racket. I it it really does make sense if you if you think about it for a few moments. Yeah Yeah Amanda Window Raymond who is manager of Marijuana Law and policy of the Drug Policy Alliance An advocacy group that promotes drug reform. Said said we've definitely seen a more active opposition from the farm. Industry research conducted by myself and others shows that medical cannabis patients are substituting in cannabis for pharmaceuticals a very high rate and for alcohol at a pretty high rate as well. So this is a financial threat. Maybe and then and if we go and look at the whole alcohol I don't know where we call him. Big Alcohol The the inebriated ooh via nieve Riady. I didn't make that up from some comedy writers that joy well a comedy writers whoever you are Angel and went oh Mitchell and webb. Yeah and you've Riady body man. Thanks guys I could listen to the hours. So let's go let's go to the Arizona wine and Spirits Wholesale Association and because the this outfit gave one of the largest donations to the Arizona Anti Anti legalization campaign it paid ten grand for For responsible drug policy They just you know. Ten grand isn't a ton of money but it is a pretty hefty donation and they were very much interested in not having marijuana become legalized in Arizona. Yeah and then the The Beer Distributors Political Action Committee recently donated Twenty Five K.. Way to the campaign for a safe and healthy Massachusetts making it the state's third largest backer of the opposition to recreational cannabis. I have to say I'm I'm honestly a little Surprised that these numbers aren't higher. I am too yeah with the reason. They seem smaller is because their specific donations. We've looked if you pull the numbers for maybe beer. Distributors PAC overall. You would see these dribs and drabs. You know what I mean kind of like how. The Bureau of Public Roads was channeling. It a very small. All amounts across a wide distribution network. That way you can stay out of the news for You know giving a million dollars to the campaign for a safe and healthy Massachusetts who sits. Here's some irony here. We Got Purdue Pharma an Abbott laboratories makers of oxycontin and Vicodin which are Very powerful OPIOID painkillers They were among the largest contributors to the anti-drug coalition of America. Wait a minute drug companies. Unease yes yes. Contributing to anti-drug packs are whatever it is is that is that. Would you consider that a pack coalition. Look if you you can smoke it knoll or snort it. It's not a real drug. Okay Yeah I'll tell you the people that crush up and SNORT oxycontin well. Hey that's their medicine. Go back to middle school to get the learning. That's a bad idea. I gotTa Eddie Tell You as I still thought that song slapped I was I. They got me with the song. There's a song. Yeah dares remember the dare so I'll play it for you off air great so oh so there were a couple of but but you're right and to found this. The pharmaceutical research and manufacturers of America America this is one of Maryland's biggest official opponents spent almost toward nineteen million dollars on lobbying in twenty fifteen and then increase that in twenty sixteen and they didn't. This didn't come out of just some brainstorming session. The AM allied of quantitative data to back their apprehension because institutes institutes. That have legalized medical marijuana. Opiate overdoses have dropped by roughly twenty five percent. That's a huge number. In in in comparison to states that prohibited sales of marijuana and this was a study not by some advocacy group. Group paid shadow money. This was a study in two thousand fourteen from the Journal of the American Medical Association which is above legit in most IM- most of these kinds of conversations. Think about that. They're pouring millions of dollars into legislative mechanisms to stop marijuana legalization tation not because they're concerned about the health of people. But because it's reducing opioid. Use Okay I did think about that Ben. I don't like it so this study's imply that people could be using medical marijuana to treat they're chronic pain painting rather than the alternative of opioid painkillers. Or maybe they're mixing the two and there taking lower doses his of opioids than they would normally be taking which would of course affect produce bottom line. Yeah that'd be bad for purdue the manufacturer end for the insurance industry as well And Research by the University of Georgia shows that Medicare prescriptions for drugs that would treat chronic pain and anxiety. Heidi also dropped in states legalized at least medical marijuana. So when we talk about the idea and this idea that many people believe that marijuana marijuana can smell cure cancer and has been suppressed by the powers that be. We have to look at the claims in their controversial going back or opening anecdote while cutler was almost certainly correct. That marijuana lessened his pain he did ultimately pass away due to cancer. And then we have to look at the proven functions because the marijuana does appear to be legit at doing some of the things people say it does so. Let's go into some of the facts. The proven functions of marijuana it does appear that's affective intriguing conditions associated with chronic diseases and cancer in some cannabinoid may have anticancer qualities. We has not been conclusively lucidly proven effective at combating cancer itself. Though are well for that. Let's check out this article from the Journal Journal of the American Medical Association. There's a doctor here. Dr Donald Abrams. He's an integrative oncologist at the University of California San Francisco. And there's another gentleman. Dr Manuel Guzman a researcher and professor of biochemistry over at the University of Madrid the Competence University of Madrid. And these. You guys were very optimistic or at least found optimistic results when they're looking at this preclinical evidence of the anticancer activities of AIDS. It's pretty crazy. The authors cite studies mainly conducted using animal models so using a testing method of trying it out on an animal right and there were four areas. Areas were cancer. Fighting Effects of cabinet. Leads were found right. Yeah they've found that could help induce death of cancer cells while not aww important wild you. Not Targeting healthy cells could also block the proliferation of cancer cells could impair tumor growth and could inhibit inhibit the spread of these cancer cells. These are all these also very closely related. But they are. They are distinct things and very important. That's right especially again. The Golden Golden Goose here is just as much what these substances do not target as it is what they do target. Yes so the doctors say there are two other additional areas areas and they found this in vitro and animal studies. They said cannabinoid selectively target cancer cells and the said they they can act act in synergy with standard anticancer therapies so they can be kind of a cocktail right. They have a cumulative effect with other Other cancer treatments and they can help Mitigate tumor growth without increasing toxicity to the host because you know for a long time cures for cancer were incredibly traumatic. You're introducing chemical chemicals into the body that are going to injure you. You're you're going to lose your hair. There are all kinds of effects. You'RE GONNA get from trying to kill off the bad things and it's hurting the rest of your body's will right and the thing is that the authors themselves are not one hundred percent on board with this because they're worried that it'll get twisted out of proportion as you know as so often happens with science headlines since they say look. Don't take these results that we found in these very controlled conditions and try to extrapolate those to real life conclusions since and make blanket statements about them and make blanket statements. Exactly they say you know the one of the most dangerous things you can do is throw conventional treatments out of the water and just start trying to mess with really really potent cannabis medicine. Because if you're doing that instead of consulting consulting with the doctor and going through proven cancer treatments your your dramatically lowering your chances of recovery. We even have a quote from Dr Abrams about this. That's right. He says one of the most painful things that I have to deal with people who have potentially curable malignancy who choose to treat it with cannabis oils and by the time they come to see me. They are incurable with metastatic disease He went on to observe the people who claim that cannabis cured cancer often forget that they had already used used other conventional treatments which he finds to be a particularly misleading right. Maybe they're missing attributing the true cause of their improvement. I think this is something that physicians who specialize in cannabis can also agree with is a guy named Dr Jeffrey Herman rather than a love of that name He has some of the same concerns as the doctors in that jam article and he says look in some cases using cannabis as stop tumor growth or caused the cancer to disappear but in others. It didn't work to great effect. And not all cancers are the same so of course not all cancers respond the same way but he said there's an interesting trick of the methodology here because a lot of patients who use cannabis in swear by it used it along with their conventional therapies and the fact that the a used it that way excludes them from being included in the National Cancer Institute database. So maybe it's good for them individually but we we're lacking a lobby to build a larger understanding so long story short. Yes people believe that there is a little bit of science behind it And there is truth to the story of these established businesses trying to repress this likely for a profit motive you know what I mean even if even if there is Panacea Silver Bullet cure for cancer from marijuana. It doesn't doesn't matter even if there's not one it doesn't matter these companies want to make money. That's that's why they're they're They're trying to adapt in an environment. Where the attitude toward cannabis is changing which it absolutely is right? research continues but as of now experts do agree that the best use of cannabis towards cancer is as a symptom reliever not as a cure nausea appetite. Loss pain sleep anxiety. All of that stuff are greatly improved approved by use of canvas. There's no question about that. At least some of these indications are supported in the landmark twenty seventeen report on the health effects of cannabis and cannabinoid annoyed was published by the National Academies of Science Engineering and medicine. So what do you think this is an ongoing story because research does continue. There's more and more research as people able to legally engage in clinical trials or. I should say as it's easier for people to get. Clinical trials approved wbt. What please should marijuana have in the United States in the world at large and in the hospitals in those countries in on our planet? Let us know you. You can find us on facebook. 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I was really hoping that this study here would be a little a little more positive right yeah. Hot Sauce does cure cancer because I would be so cancer free but it looks like I may be wrong Yeah any other things that you think that we we need to know about as far as a cancer cure possible cancer cure. Let us know if you don't want to do any of these things we've outlined here in these the credits please please send us a good old fashioned email we are to spiracy it. IHEART RADIO DOT COM and aw stuff they don't want you to know is a production of iheartradio's how stuff works for more podcasts. From Iheartradio you visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows this is Danny Shapiro host of the hit. PODCAST family secrets. I hope you'll join us for some incredible conversations about family identity and what happens to both when the secrets that have been kept from us and the secrets we keep finally come to light. 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Digital Economy: The digitisation of healthcare

The Economist Intelligence Unit: Digital Economy

31:34 min | 1 year ago

Digital Economy: The digitisation of healthcare

"Hello and welcome to the economist. Intelligence Unit's digital economy podcast. I'm your host Pizza Way. This podcast is sponsored by the independent services. Company that specializes in digital transformation. We thank them for their support. Could be few applications of digital technology more worthwhile and saving lives little wonder. There's so much hope and expectation placed on digital healthcare from telemedicine to self APPs from Ai. Driven Oncology to digital pills. Dell's there's no shortage of innovations vying to support and enhance the provision of healthcare. However as well here in this episode integrating digital technology into healthcare systems uh-huh uniquely complex if the human body itself not complicated enough the intricacies of healthcare funding and the delicate balance of interests that healthcare providers must navigate make change and innovation all the more challenging? The data collected in the course of healthcare provision is among the most sensitive information recorded while some digital enterprises. This have the luxury of being able to move fast and break things. Experimentation in healthcare has to be Catholic controlled. This episode provides an introduction to some of the challenges that healthcare providers face in their pursuit of digital innovation and explores some of the paths forward. I'm joined this month by professor and Blandford Deputy Director for digital health the UCLA Institute of Healthcare Engineering by Jackie Hunter Chief Executive for clinical programs and strategic relationships that AI powered drug development firm Benevolent Ai. And by my colleague Elizabeth Super Managing Editor and global editorial lead for healthcare. I started by asking professor. Blandford what are the frontiers tears of digital innovation in healthcare. Well there are many different frontiers because digital health is such a broad field breath. There are three main audiences for digital health technologies analogies. The first is the individual the citizen and third for them there are lots of new APPs. wearables even implantable that are emerging urging on the mall. Kit help us to manage our own health and health professionals to work with us in managing our health. They may so help asleep. Better quit smoking. Whatever the frontiers I think are more APPS and other technologies that are clinically validated? And that actually have been proven to have a significant effect at least for a segment or sector of the population and also APPs APPs that integrate with other clinical technologies such as Glue commenters to ensure that the data is transferred from medical devices through into the big data for health. Professionals are a whole bunch of digital tools that support diagnosis decision making treatment. They include traffic health records and variety of medical devices with digilent- faces current frontiers include artificial intelligence is receiving a lot of press right now and it seems ridiculous to say it but I think unimportant frontier is actually getting the different medical devices healthcare systems to actually talk to each other effectively effectively safely securely and said the patients are treated as whole human beings not as a series of different clinical conditions in silos and and then the last group of users for digital technologies are in public health bringing together lots of sources of data across thousands or millions of patients to spot trends and to plan and prioritize and to think strategically about the future of healthcare and then the final frontier is actually joining up all those perspectives so that the individual visual health data is actually used for clinical care and use as part of the Public Health Initiative. That's great so so you've been covering digital technology in the healthcare context for for a while. Do you when you think back to. Maybe ten or twenty years ago do you think it is come. As far as you expected by why then has the integration of digital technology happened as fast as you would have expected I have to say no. I think I was quite naive. Fifteen years ago and thought that by now we would have a lot more health technologies in our daily lives particularly for people who are managing long term chronic conditions but more generally for for all of us in managing our wellbeing more generally. And I think it's taken a lot longer to see that change enjoy. I mean I think it's still in a daze now because health care and people are so complex and actually you can't just plug things in and and expect them to work first time. We have to adapt society and adapt all social structures and adapt to accommodate the the expectations of technology's Great Elizabeth. What do you think are the biggest challenges integrating digital technologies into healthcare systems as and said? They're such complex systems that provision of healthcare. So is that why. Perhaps progress hasn't been as fast as expected. You're absolutely right. He Tom. Such complex systems you. Are you going to need champions to help embedded at a local level and you need to also train our healthcare professionals so they can understand what this technology is all about and Said said the needs to be as Coccia of continuous learning and innovation. That takes time and we know there are budgets a stretch and so there's going to be very hard to achieve so one of the most important things is to show who digital literacy and to what extent do our healthcare professionals have this this such an age range that there's such an educational range in our healthcare professionals. And so we need to really think about that long term also As you said and I agree with you. We don't have enough long-term evidence around these healthcare technologies apps and as as healthcare professionals professionals. You kind of need to know whether it works and and so you can better advise patients and also interpret that data. It's generating another really big challenge and I think think round trust so who owns the data. How will it be used how comfortable people feel about data on their wearable going into electronic medical record? Who's going to look at what's what's going to happen to her? As you probably heard recently Google was keen to buy fitbit. Now there's tons millions of data on health on healthcare in those and it's worrying what will will happen. That data going forward another area is I don't feel regulators are up to speed with the science here. The FDA has the digital health care unit. That's right right. So they're going to need to hire the experts okay. These dates who data engineers these infamous these genomics experts to keep up to pace for the speed in the science. That's moving so quickly And also they need to be on top of they need to create the standards in terms of where what standard we apply here. Do you look at APPS APPS and products. That have a real therapeutic claim. What about those others? That are not so therapeutic might have long term consequences for our half. I think kind of ads as as well as half professionals being very variable of course patients. The public are even more diverse. Because most of us don't have any kind of medical training training at all and we come from many different walks of life. We have many different value systems so as well as the health professionals. It's also thinking about the population more broadly in terms of the variability we're lucky in Europe and the US. I mean the population does have a degree of health literacy if you go look. Globally emerging economies. A half literacy is very poor so that's going to be important to develop and I would say even though there is a certain amount of health literacy actually. The adoption of the technology is hugely hugely variable across different healthcare systems across different patients. I have heard professing. Pathology say there's no away a machine can tell me what is a normal image and until we overcome some of this distrust and the technology and Dan says tap into people's values systems. Then it's not going to be effectively taken up but I think also requires us not to make any big speak mistakes so take very few big mistakes to really undermine trust cad data for those of you who remember it was such a big mistake can you recap head. Data was an initiative to make our care records available. Both research also potentially sensually for private organizations and the concern about these issues of privacy that Liz mentioned was so large that cad data quite quickly got shelved because they threatened all sense of trust in who curate tting and taking responsibility for our Health data I was GONNA say say planning hugely important. I mean if you look at the The tie up between Google deep mind and the London royal free. It sounds like a great idea. I'm the pharmacist by training. I'd like to pick up acute medical Renal injuring hospital early before the patient suffers and has renewed dysfunction and so it was a great idea to start off with but it went not so great in the end. Because you know the Information Commissioner got involved in twenty percent was the data properly shared so we need a good governance structure around they so we can benefit both sides the companies that we know. The private sector's good at developing these things but also we as citizens is healthcare professionals as to how this data's being used so Jackie Jackie L.. I like to bring you in there so benevolent. Ai Or company applies artificial intelligence to to drug development. And I'm sure patient data it is part of that we ourselves don't hold patient data apart from the clinical studies when we run but clearly we access patient data data for example. We've done in extensive analysis of the data from airless from motor neurone disease studies that held in the product database. She's publicly available We also look at basic bioscience because we go all the way from early drug discovery right the way through to clinical development and so it's really important for us to be able to access high-quality data. But were very clear about the need for transparency. And how we're using that data to you characterizes finding the right balance are there any jurisdictions any healthcare systems soon found the right balance. We still finding our way. I mean I think the most important thing I think it's this transparency. So people are very clear. I mean the example dot dot news highlighted in terms of Google de mind and the Royal Free Hospital. One of the issues there I think he wasn't transparent neon exactly what was going to be transferred bird. And I'm going to be done with that data. I think if you got that right and you engaged with the patients. It's very important for us to work with with patient groups so that they understand what we're trying to do for example with the Airlines Society in America so there are health care systems and organizations where I think they have got it right you K- bio bank. I think is a very powerful resource for researching touching the in the UK. Going do you think is particularly effective. And I think the way that the data's collected the process for being able to access the ability and ease of access once the clear ethical. I'm regulatory guidelines are passed. It's harder for a small company. Lie Mike how to be able to access some of these data sources because we don't have some of the financial resources of the of the larger companies. But I I think as things move forward. There's GonNa be an increase in interoperability an increase in data sharing and transparency. When it becomes clear by doing that for example you you can identify patients that are much more likely to respond to a drug than those that are not one of the biggest issues for the patients nations and the pharmaceutical industry is that we're still seeing fifty percent failure rates in phase three trial? So you've been working on a drug for many many years you take it to a stage where you've already spent several hundred million pounds on that drug and you still sing a high failure rate and most at the time. It's because we don't understand disease well enough to know exactly how that drug is going to work in a whole range of patients when you go into a broader a group of patients so if we can actually find those patients who will respond best at treatment. It's going to facilitate eight more rapid drunk development. It's going to mean that patients who will not respond to that drug won't be exposed to it and therefore I think it's going to make the whole system more officiant ineffective research looks at impart in the development of digital systems that are safe to use in a Medical environments can you talk about some of the ways of the methods of digital of technology development that aid with the integration the digital technology and healthcare system yet so as the human factor specialist. I advocate iterative design because we can never get it right first time because people pull are at the center of the use of technology and interacting with it unfortunately in healthcare it's much more challenging to use some some of the Agile and very iterative approach is to use for games and entertainment technologies because in those areas you can deploy technologies see how people engage with it how they interact with it and then keep it's relatively changing it whereas in healthcare. You really need to make sure that you've got something that is safe and fit for purpose before you launch it at any scale so we are trying to deal with this mismatch between trying to get people involved really early early stage because that's the way you develop technologies that are actually fit for purpose but also ensuring that they're safe before they go very far and so I think that involves a whole pile of techniques to do with engaging with users early understanding people's lifestyle. Not just asking them what they need because actually most of us are pretty in articulate about. What's possible and what we really want in the future? That's different from what we've got at the moment but also observing people's lives jobs. I'm an academic so I'd also talk about developing theory that is relevant in this space to understand how we can get people engaged in behavior. Change how we design technology there is actually more likely to be safe less likely to be prone to human error. What is the human factors approach? Tell us about the adoption of of off digital healthcare systems. What is it that determines whether somebody is going to accept an APP or a medical device as part of their treatment When as as we know it is a reasonable high chance? They won't so I think the starting point obviously has to be awareness that this is a possibility. The people have to be aware that a two basic level things like physical exercise and Diet are likely to contribute to a more healthy life life and longer life but it when people have clinical conditions to be aware of how they might change their and their lifestyles and the values of hearing to medications or to digital official interventions and awareness of what's possible in terms of digital interventions. What's out there? What's available to people? Once they're aware and they have to be motivated to actually try it out so it has to look like it's going to have some positive value in their lives and it looks like it's going to be usable and useful for people and then once they've started using it they actually if it's the kind of technology that needs to be used long term And some aren't some just kind of use it briefly and then you've changed and you don't need to continue using it but for those long term engagement is important it has to really really fit people's lifestyles it has to come at a cost is appropriate. Must not be stigmatizing. It has to be trusted in terms of what's happening to the data as as we talked about earlier and it has to be perceived as being safe so it's about safety value. USABILITY FIT with lifestyle fit with personal image as well check. Ah Let's talk a little bit. Changes a little bit to the the sort of the change in the healthcare industry so benevolent is a tech company. Bill Benevolent Ai. That's Ai my writing the title. Your background is in a more traditional drug companies. So I'm interested in both firstly. Why you thought if you did you you thought why? In order to realize the potential of artificial intelligence in drug development it required a separate more tech company like the ICAL in order to achieve achieve that. What is the difference that you've experienced so far? I'm really glad you asked me. Not because one of the reasons I left the pharmaceutical industry to go to Benevolent Oakland was that Hound drug discovery has been done and how drugs are being developed. Hasn't changed really for decades. It's pretty much. It was pretty much the same as it was done in the nineteen sixties and seventies overseas with the impact of molecular biology but but essentially the process was the same and it used to frustrate me because there was so much information so much evidence out there but because of the bandwith I as an individual scientists and we even a team of scientists had. We just couldn't synthesize information to come up with better targets to work on a better disease understanding and the only way we can do that is to actually use artificial intelligence machine learning approaches to be able to analyze the data. And pull it all together. So you may say well. Why can't you do that in a normal company? Well first of all to recognize this that large organizations it's like pharmaceutical companies and indeed. Some of the large tech organizations are organized in a particular way at a particular time and be disruptive in some ways. You've really got to start with a blank sheet of paper. It's why digital health technologies of taking off in countries in Africa where there was no healthcare infrastructure. More rapidly in some ways than they have in more developed countries so we started with a blank sheet of paper real data scientists and biologists and chemists but I think I underestimated how long tank to get those two different approaches to work together Very closely so you had the domain experts and you have to check experts and they spoke the same language but meant something completely different and it probably took about two years bringing scientists. I I because the technologies didn't issue rate enough with the scientists and they. I think they understood the problem and then go work on it for six weeks. Come back and it wouldn't be the right solution. But also the scientists were so distressed where the technology initially that they didn't a- actually asked what they really wanted because they really didn't think the technology we'll be able to deliver it over the course of time. We built a culture where uh the data scientists and the domain experts work very closely together in a way that I think it'd be very hard to kind of kick start in a large company now. We have collaborations with pharmaceutical companies. And I think one of the things that we can bring to those collaborations rations is different ways of working. I'm really breaking down. Some of the more traditional silos that exist in these these companies. And I don't think until using this approach and showing that we can demonstrate a fundamental shift in either the cost of the time of the success of drug discovery and development. Once we do that then of course there'll be incentive for larger companies to really look at the investment. That's required to do this properly do. Do you have a different relationship. With regulators obviously drugged his keenly watched What is the relationship we have? Well so we I I'm again. I think this is interesting. Because we are developing medicines. They have to be approved re from a regulatory point of view and so the relationship is actually very similar. Because we're not actually using wearable devices for regulatory purposes we are doing some exploratory wearables up to the process itself is still a regulated process. But again one of the things. I think that was interesting having a company. That combines clinical clinical development as well as early stage discovery is very early on. We made sure that we have in place. All the standard operating procedures ages aversion controls and things really made it very easy downstream to be able to document how we've got to a particular decision so I brought automaker that was very important. I thought when we talk about digital health care of envisage whether it's APPS or maybe new drug development element systems kind of purely digital systems but there is also an emerging class all of treatments or devices that kind of integrate the digital and the biological. And we're talking talking about things that you actually put inside your body obviously not necessarily anything. New Pacemakers have been around for a long time but obviously these devices are increasingly. Digitized is Elizabeth. What are some of the challenges that these devices present? And what do we need to do about this. Yeah this is a really good question and you you know. We have had medical devices for a very long time there. Inserted into our bodies and a lot of them will have these embedded computer systems and so there are two major issues this cybersecurity and and electromagnetic interference so So as we know of medical devices now with the move in digital increasingly becoming more interconnected with hospital systems uh-huh hospital networks intern smartphones. And so you know the cyber security risk is a real one and if these devices are really poorly designed on authorize is uses can get in and make changes So if we look at cardiac devices as an example hackers that they if they did get in they could cause the battery complete or they could in theory. Give a patient inappropriate shock which could cause harm and we've had a number of big names recently you know Like medtronic Abbott have been called over. You know some of the risks around their products and even only March Shia. US cybersecurity agency assigned a vulnerability score of nine point point three to a particular cardiac implant near the top of its ten point scale and the other area is around. I'm electric magnetic electromagnetic interference or disturbance ribbons from radio frequency transmitters like RFID. And so there's a new area also clinicians. They're going to have to be more aware of this and so when a patient comes to them and says things aren't quite working checking out while they need to take a. Where were you you know what environment where you win? And try and CA was a device affected by that so these kind of really important questions provided awesome sells might need a bit more understanding of Telecommunications Science and research as well as just medical research well possibly yes I mean depending on how popula allow me. These devices are going forward great. You mentioned interoperability. There and that is that is a topic that we whenever we talk about any industry and with respect to digitization interoperability sort of realize its head. Jackie what do we need to do. What data infrastructure infrastructure needs to be built so that these individual devices and individual technologies? We're talking about do. Pull together to form. A cohesive SUV digitized healthcare system. One of the most important things is standards and having the standardization across different the types of devices to allow that interoperability. If we think about imaging lots of imaging digital whether it's Pathology Radiology and there are now being developed standards which allow images from different types of machine to to be shed so I think this is where oh I think policy in governments do have a role to play in driving that's standardization. I think it's also important that whether we're talking about digital pathology or electronic health records that there are certain standards in terms of what is expected of the data systems use so in in the UK we've had GP records digitize for many years but hospital records are much much. Lower Power to get digitized statistic that only ten percent of hospital records digitized. Somebody said I saw in one thousand nine hundred and a number of different systems of being used to implement this and I think it's important that an procurement agree on what even if there are different systems that are being used that there is a certain set of standards and interoperability that those systems have to adhere to do you. You see those standards being regional so for example you talked about the end it just there see there being UK standards or are we trying to achieve global stand. I mean ideally you would like to to have global standards and the reason I say that is I mean I've worked with several are small companies. Who have been trying to get their devices? Our methodologies are adopted by the different health services Regional Trust now. Those trust have different patient consent. They have different cloud base storage requirements and our local developers off move devices and equipment to be digital equipment to be able to export globally. We should be adhering to standards that are used in other countries especially large markets like the the US and emerging markets like China. So I would say that I a minimum they should strive for. UK Standardization Interoperability but ideally would want to look get some form of of of global standard that allows companies here in the UK to be able to effectively market across. It's great to finish. I'd like to ask all of you where you think this is taking us so if everything goes to plan and the potential is realized when we're in ten or twenty years how would you characterize the healthcare system that we have the right result of digitization I'll start with you then. Okay so I I I want to say that. I don't think we can expect quick fixes. I think is probably going to take ten or twenty years to actually achieve the kinds. The things that we've been talking about like interoperability and balancing the needs for safety and privacy with usability at sat tra- but if we do get it right then I think digital technology should be enabling people by which I mean citizens to interact with the caste system much more smoothly than is currently possible across primary and Secondary Care on holiday in another part of the country. Or whether you're at home with your local clinical teams clinicians should be able to focus on care Eh. Not on worrying about the technology or whether or not they trust the algorithms or whatever and they should be able to build those trusting relations with patients that are mediated by technology technology. There'll be more variation the kinds of interactions that we have with the caste system and more variation across citizens because there is such variability not across the population and ideally more timely warnings of acute event. Such AS MYOCARDIAL INFARCTION HEART ATTACKS TAX to improve prevention rather than just reaction to things that happen in the future so the government stated ambition is to ensure that people can enjoy enjoy at least five extra years of healthy independent years of life by twenty thirty five and I want to emphasize the word enjoy in that I ate that. You know it's about good quality of life not just a longer slow a decline into old age and death so in Christian in the US breath. Yeah I mean if it works well we're going to have healthy populations we're going to have improved outcomes and and savings for healthcare systems systems. There'll be shift hopefully two more home care especially for long-term conditions as we know you know. We don't want to put people in hospitals and we can manage them at home and one or two so they vital signs or treatment adherence whatever So it's an exciting time but at the heart of it needs to be equitable. We need to to make sure no one's left behind because I think a vulnerable populations people who you might not have access to the Internet. Maybe the educational attainment is not as high as others is and so we have to think of the the the vulnerable populations who might not be able to access these services in the first place. How will they be damaged in the future by digital? Have you know we have to make sure we carry and hold everyone with us. So that's a key consideration for me. Jackie well me. Obviously the effects on the house service abyss of improved analytics in areas like diagnosis. For example policy would be really really powerful but in my area enjoyed discovery and development. I want to hope to see that there will be actually within twenty twenty eight time for many drunks that have been discovered using I and digital technologies and that clinical trials will move from being fifty percent successful to maybe eighty percent successful doing that. We'll have a huge impact. I think on patient's lives and especially eh in chronic diseases like how scientists for which at the moment. There's no real effective therapy Jackie. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Digital Economy podcast and thanks again to our sponsors. DNC An independent IT services. This company that specializes in digital transformation. If you haven't already done so please make sure to subscribe to the podcast on your platform of choice Kunin. Next time we'll be discussing. cussing the global market for digital skills.

US Jackie Jackie L Google UK Europe Elizabeth Super UCLA Institute of Healthcare E Dell Intelligence Unit professor Blandford Benevolent Ai FDA
Vaccines: Time for a Booster Shot [Rebroadcast]

Science Vs

37:32 min | 1 year ago

Vaccines: Time for a Booster Shot [Rebroadcast]

"Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman. You're listening to science buses from Gimblett today where revisiting our episode on vaccines because well, the CDC says the number of measles cases being reported is close to the danger zone. There are now seven hundred four cases in twenty two states that is the highest number since the disease was declared a radically in the US back in two thousand. That's right. The US measles outbreak just hit a peak. The number of cases is the highest. It's been in the last twenty five years, and this is so scary because measles is airborne when you cough when you breathe it can sprint. And that means eat can spread fast last week in California. Just one person with measles of walked into a university library and that led to more than six hundred people being quarantined. And one of the biggest reasons this is happening is the anti vaccination movement, which is now gained steam all. Over the world. The current outbreak has been linked to around forty unvaccinated travelers who visited countries with their own Maizels outbreaks countries, like Israel, Ukraine, and the Philippines, and in the US in some communities. Vaccination rates have dropped so low that measles is starting to spread to people with vulnerable immune systems like babies too young to be vaccinated and the elderly with all this going on. We wanted to share an episode with you that we did a while back on whether vaccines a safe we first aired this episode two years ago, but the science still holds up so here, it is scientists is vaccines. This is the show that pits facts against tickling. And that's head the Rudge's our report, and he'll little keytar layer. We're sharing a microphone is that. Okay. Or should. I e antetok onto your only he is four years old now, and my gosh, he's he's beautiful big is and he likes stories gays toys funny stories Dookie story, and he likes to snuggle in the morning. I get so has gotten vaccinated. He's got some of his vaccines. Not all of them back. When Leo was little some people in his family had brought up questions about vaccines and around the same time. She'd heard from some friends that they weren't getting their vaccines. Exactly as their pediatrician told them to. I knew some parents who had space them out. And who said like, no, I don't wanna give my my baby vaccines all at once like on the the the way that the doctor wants you to do it. And and then I was like, well, should I have done that? Like is that smart? So why parents worried about? This now. So if you took your baby to get shots in the nineteen eighties. Like by the time, they were one they would have had something like five shots and today, you take your baby to go get shots, and they get something like twenty shots before the time. They're one so next time headed took Leo in for his routine vaccination jails to a doctor about it. And I said, you know, can you tell me about the side effects, and the doctor looked at me and kind of like scoffed, and she said, are you serious? It was very disorienting. I was just like why why do I feel like I did something wrong by asking? So it has to be honest soobee. I'm on the video attrition side. Yeah. I would expect you to say that. But the thing is a lot of parents are worried about this so apiece survey just came out that said forty three percent of parents of young children think that vaccines come with a medium or high risk forty-three percent. Yeah. Getting close to half again. So parents have questions and is fees about vaccines, grow vaccine rights can drop and we've seen the consequences of this impacts of the US with diseases that we thought we'd gotten rid off of come back. The measles outbreak at Disneyland has proven it's a small world after all. Fifteen years after US health officials declared measles had been eliminated from our country the viruses roaring back into the headlines tonight. What started at the Orange County theme parks has spread to Colorado, Washington Utah, and now Mexico as the number of measles cases continues to climb in Minnesota measles wants to radically in the US is now exploding in Minnesota Somali community where many parents won't vaccinate. And so the parents who worry about the risks of vaccines. It can feel like this duck between a really hard choice expose kids to diseases or potentially dangerous vaccines, and for parents, like head out who just want to know the risks. She says it's hot to get good information. You know in doing this story, I've gone to talk to experts to researchers and I've been able to do things like, okay. Look, I have this question. Like, can you answer? This for me like I'm a parent. And I want to know the answer to this question. A lot of parents want to do that. And like don't have the opportunity. So today, Heather an I in the team at science verses? We going down the rabbit hole on childhood vaccines to answer the following questions. One. Is they any link between vaccines and autism to kids getting too many shots too. Young. Three ten vaccines co sieges and four what can happen if you don't get your kid vaccinated when it comes to vaccines? There are lots of scare stories two lines. But then this science. Science vessels vaccines is coming up. Just after the break. This episode of science is is brought to you by ancestry ancestry has the world's largest online collection of family history records. So you'll ancestors can become more than just to name with ancestries twenty billion records. You can start creating your own family train, which could help you unlock incredible stories about poss- generations of your family. It's easy to get started. Go to ancestry dot com slash science VS to stop growing your trade today. Welcome back. So today, we're talking about the risks and the benefits of vaccines. And there are a couple of fairly common risks to vaccines. These a pretty minor. You can get a fever some pain and stiffness in the joints and about one out of twenty kids who get the measles. Mumps rubella shot can get a mild rash for the other vaccines. It's pretty rare. But some kids convenient, but for parents who is skeptical or really worried about vaccines. They often have big issues. They worried the vaccines will Kohl's long-term problems to their kids. So let's dive into these issues a big worry right now is that vaccines can cause autism. And these feel really took off in nineteen ninety eight. In fact, let me set the scene for you. Monica Lewinsky had just become the. The world's most famous intern. Everyone was loving Cameron Diaz his head in this. Something about Mary. And this was the song of the summa. Anyway, back to vaccines as more and more kids were getting vaccinated, a curious thing was happening. More and more kids were getting diagnosed with autism in California a report compiled by the department of developmental services documented, a two hundred seventy three percent increase in autism cases in a state over the past eleven years in some parents were freaking out. It felt like all of a sudden autism was everywhere. You can tell anyone without them saying, oh, I have to autism kids in my class. Our next door. Neighbor has a child with autism kids seemed normal until they would toddlers and suddenly they would start having these problems communicating and interacting with people and to really unnerving pot of all this is that no one knew. And in fact, we still don't know what causes autism some parents. And even some scientists started wondering. What if these shots that are supposed to protect kids against disease actually hurt your child soon? Several theories cropped up as to how vaccines could cause autism and one that got a lot of attention was that the vaccine for measles mumps rubella was the culprit so can cause autism the person who I champion. This idea was a British doctor by the name of Andrew Wakefield. And you might have heard of him. He's since become a big campaign against vaccines. He he's speaking last year on info wars. Yes. This is the same show. The calls be sandy hook school shooting a hoax one and two children born in twenty thirty two going to have autism that is absolutely unacceptable. So whatever the media say about me, whatever the politicians Sam. I mean, it doesn't matter. What matters is the future of this country in the future. That's countries is children. But that's the Andrew Wakefield. Of today back in the late nineteen ninety s. Andrew was quite different. He was a gastroenterologist working at the Royal free hospital in school of medicine in London. And he's research, which connected, the measles mumps rubella vaccine to autism was being published in a prestigious journal, the Lancet and it was being taken seriously. So let's take a close look at it Andrew, and he's colleagues studied twelve kids some of whose parents said that they had gotten autism soon after getting the vaccine now specifically entry was looking at the kids guts, and he found that some of them beat up inflammation in them. Now from that he thought about vaccine must have caused the inflammation, which then led to their autism. Now, even though this was a really small study, which when you think about it. It didn't really prove anything Andrew drummed up. A lot of meteor attention and started telling parents not to vaccinate their kids with the Maizels mumps rubella vaccine also called the M O. He he's on ABC news. There's a great deal evidence stacking up to suggest that the parents that contention that that child regressed after and all is indeed, correct? Scientists scrambled to figure out if Andrew was right and the measles mumps rubella shot could cause autism. The first studies that put Andrew's theory to the test came out of a year later, and while that's fast in the world of science. It wasn't fast enough science takes time. I think the time was not on our side. Daniel salmon is a professor of public health at Johns Hopkins University, and he says those studies would too late for public opinion. If we would have had good solid, data sooner I suspect. The public concerns wouldn't have grown as quickly as they did. And people have been reassured by those data. One of the first follow up. Studies looked at every key diagnosed with autism. In a part of the K is was almost five hundred kids, and it found no link between the measles, mumps, rubella, vaccine and autism soon. More and more. Studies would come out involving well over a million children all showing no connection between getting the vaccine and kids getting autism. Those studies were done by different. Investigators different scientists in different countries using different methods, and they were all negative. Meanwhile, Andrew Wakefield's original paper was retracted attend out that he had messed around with facts about the patient's medical histories, and by two thousand eleven an editorial in the British medical journal cold the paper quote fatally flawed fourth scientifically and ethically. And quote, he lost his license to practice medicine. And now Andrew goes on shows like info wars where the hosts say things like this do Lord destroy the child all this is their plan people. These are demons the second inter dimensional invaders. Hillary Clinton is a God damn Damon? Conclusion lots of what has been done looking for a connection between autism and the measles mumps rubella vaccine, and none has been found, but that's just one vaccine and one theory, there's another idea about how vaccines could be causing autism. And that's mercury mercury is sometimes used as a preservative in vaccines in a foam, cold fine Mirasol and in the mid to late nineteen ninety s. Americans sounded getting really worried about Mickey the FDA was issuing warnings to pregnant women not to eat certain fish that will move to get mercury out of the moment is even meals aggress Tyson tried to stop mercury from being a planet. Okay. So we made up that loud store. But seriously officials wanted to read the US of mercury and that's because McCurry is a big deal. When people are exposed to a lot of it. It can damage the nervous system and the brain making people kind of kooky which actually where the term the mad had comes from. Because had is used to use mercury to make the hats. But seriously, mercury exposure is serious. It can affect how people talk and move which to some sounded like the symptoms of autism. So could the little bit of mercury that's used as a preservative in vaccines cause autism. Amy coke Brenna is a public health researcher at the university of Wisconsin in Milwaukee. And she looks at various things that might cause autism from vaccines to even pollution and Amy says that her mom so this career. Coming. She actually claims that pollution was an early word of mine. So sometimes I do have to smile about that as so it was like, mama. Dada pollution. Does it with mom claims? Yes. To find out if that type of Mickey thi- Mirasol in vaccines was linked to autism, Amy combed through a raft of studies. One followed nearly half a million kids some of whom got vaccines with maricel and others who got vaccines without IX. And the researchers found that there was no difference in autism rights between the groups and Amy found that same results in studies over and over again, the long story short is that there there's not evidence that vaccines containing fi Mirasol where associated with autism. And Amy says that it's important to know that the form of mercury that's used in vaccines. I Mera Saal is actually less dangerous than the mercury that's found in fish or in the moments. So the science on this one is settled the research is good. It is decent enough to say. That we're not showing associations, and it's time to move on. And another thing these days mercury isn't even eating my childhood vaccines. It was taken out of them while America was freaking out over mercury more than a decade ago. Now, while mercury is still in the influenza vaccine parents can ask the doctor out for version without it. But Amy says that she can understand why this idea that vaccines cause autism is hard to shake when you are heartbroken that your your child is is suffering and is disconnected from you. And you are doing everything you can not only to help your child put to understand what what happened here. I can say definitively. No, it's not your fault. Conclusion the idea that mercury causes autism has been studied over and over again. And they he's very convincing evidence that doesn't. Next question is it safe for kids to get a lot of vaccines at once kids these days? Get vaccinated for hepatitis b measles. Mumps rubella diphtheria Pataki's tetanus, chicken pox polio. And more by the time, they're to years old, and some parents worried that this is just too many vaccines. In fact, this is what Donald Trump was talking about on the campaign trail, I had my children taking care of over a long period of over two or three year period of time. Same exact amount, but you take this little beautiful baby, and you pump. I mean, it looks just like it's meant for a horse not for a child. Okay. So they syringes might look scary. But the important question is this could having a lot of different vaccines of result period of time behind full two kids. They were fees that again, all of these vaccines could be causing autism, and on this particular scientific question there, actually aunt a lot of long term studies one. We did find looked at the immune response to vaccines of about a thousand young kids. And from that it suggested that there was no lake between how many vaccines a kid got. And whether that keep developed hold his them and to Daniel salmon are professor at Johns Hopkins University, he says that while more research is always good the idea that kids getting too many vaccines. A now what's causing autism? Just feels like the lightest claim in a debate that won't die part of what's happened with autism. It's a bit of wacky KOMO game. The first theory was that it was the MR vaccine. And when the evidence became compelling that it wasn't the Anamar vaccine. Then people said how the? A preservative tham air, Saul. And then people said is the number of vaccines given at once. But have a report on had heard about risks other than autism that parents will worried about like that all these vaccines would just too much for a baby's immune system to handle which could mean that the baby would be an increased risk of getting allergies or asthma. So we go head to look into this. So yes, Wendy, what did you find on this question? I found a big 2013 report from the institute of medicine, and it said that while each new vaccine is thoroughly tested individually. These vaccines aren't necessarily tested together with all the other vaccines. That's kinda surprising. I've gotta say it is. Yeah. So have been a few studies quite large studies actually with several thousand people that are testing to see if getting a lot of vaccines increases the risk of things like, asthma or allergies in kids. And what they're finding is that these vaccines don't cause those things. Yes. So while there are some unknowns. Here about the safety of all these vaccines. Parents have to weigh those risks against the possibility that they keyed won't be protected from potentially really horrible disease. Fooled by means or centuries measles has discussed it. So as harmless childhood disease. And that's coming up after the break. Plus another concern that vaccines a causing sieges? I had a child with someone when I knew there were red flags, and I just ignored them after Zoe left. Her husband. She had to start over as a single mom and now she feels stuck. And so here I am. This is the situation. I put myself in from Gimblett media. This is motherhood sessions. I'm Dr Alexandra Sachs, I'm a therapist and on this show. I sit down with women like Zoe and try to offer some help listen to motherhood sessions wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back. So far, we've found no evidence of a link between autism and vaccines despite a lot of research looking into it. But what about the idea that vaccines can cause seizures according to the centers for disease control and prevention, this is one of the most common concerns about vaccines that parents have. And we'll tell you right up the front. That. Yes, vaccines can cause seizures. And here's how likely that ease for two of the most common. Childhood vaccines about one person out of every three thousand to get the Maizels mumps and rubella vaccine will have Sesia that's coming from the CDC. Emma, chance of getting seizures from another common childhood vaccine detail, which protects you from Syria, tennis, and hooping cough is even rarer. It's one in fourteen thousand we cold up professor in grit Shefa in urologist Fakih, it's at the university of Melbourne to find out how serious these seizures. Professor structures. Is a busy lady. Fingertips fake overlay. Hi. This is Wendy high in more than twenty years of researching epilepsy. Injured has seen a lot of patients in my office. Here I'm looking at a wall full of patients faces beautiful children, some very sick something not sick. She told us that when a child has a seizure from vaccine while it's Raya. It can be frightening. The baby starts going stiff often with jerking down. One side. The have loss of consciousness, and they go off in a terrible gray blue Cala and the parent looks at their child on thinks that the child is dying. The main reason that vaccines can cause seizures is because when our immune system ramps up to respond to the little bit of virus or 'Bacterial in the vaccine it can cause a fever and fevers of any kind can actually trigger a seizure. But here's the thing incurred says that his best to science can tell the baby is actually fine after getting one of these seizures. No, brain damage, no learning disorders citizen. Stop being terrifying for mom and dad, but it doesn't cause any harm to the baby. Thank thank goodness. But a few clicks on the internet and you'll find claims that vaccines don't just Trig out one siege down, but that they can cause severe epilepsy and developmental disorders. And in the nineteen seventies. A lot of doctors actually thought this two reports were being published rag cases, where kids who were totally healthy would get a seizure soon after getting vaccinated, and then they'd get another seizure and another seizure of eventually developing severe epilepsy and permanent brain damage doctors even had a name for this. They called it vaccine encephalopathy in other words, brain. Damage caused by vaccines. Vixen and Catholic was rare. But was certainly diagnosed around the world, and they were the pronunciation of an Catholic encephalopathy in the US, you say encephalopathy in a strategy or clergy say in Catholic Pathy, but thankfully, we all understand each other man, we were gonna different. Why would they have different pronunciation for such a specific words potato pathetic might tomato to? I'm to include told us this really got us thinking who says potato. More to the point through the nineteen nineties. Doctors would diagnosing the rare patient with vaccine encephalopathy epilepsy. Researchers will working out that there were different types of epilepsy. Some really severe and critically. They were finding out that these epilepsies could be caused by your genetics. And this is where injured and her colleagues thought, hey, maybe vaccine, and fellow Pathy isn't Jewish the vaccine at all that is maybe these kids had a genetic mutation which gave them epilepsy by the early two thousand. The specific gene for very severe type of epilepsy to have as syndrome had been identified and now incurred could test her idea she did genetic tests on fourteen of her patients who would diagnosed with vaccine encephalopathy, and she was searching for that dry syndrome. Jane, she found it in eleven of the patients, we put together all the Pacers of the puzzle and shirt that it really had been a misdiagnosis these children had driven syndrome, and they were destined to have driven syndrome. So Dr a syndrome accounted for eleven of the fourteen kids that Ingrid looked at what about the other three will ingored thinks that they have some other kind of genetic epilepsy tied to Jane that we just haven't discovered yet. Now that is speculative but new genes that lead to epilepsy being discovered fairly regularly. And while Ingrid's was. A small study since then how the research is backed up her idea, and it's not just drive a syndrome research has found that other kids previously diagnosed with backseat encephalopathy actually had other types of epilepsy. Such as deuces a west syndrome. And so when you say vaccine in Catholic Pathy, then does that condition exist. I don't really think it does either FEC fill up the exists. How can you be so confident since we daren't have sort of two views of history. We can't take that baby. Not vaccinated and tech the same baby vaccinated, and how can you be? So sure. Well, I guess it's an experiment that would be very hard to do. Because if you don't vaccinate your child, then you put them at risk of the whole range of nasty diseases, but we also know families with two siblings have headed and one hasn't been vaccinations in so had driven syndrome. So I guess they've given us that answer. Now, this is a totally cut and dry. The institute of medicine published a huge report on the adverse effects of vaccines in two thousand and twelve and they would prepared to rule out that vaccine encephalopathy exists now that's partly because not all. All kids who've ended up with severe epilepsy soon after their first axon nation have a genetic diagnosis, but overall their assessment has lined up with Ingrid's that in most cases where there are adverse reactions they come from a pre existing condition. Heather was in on the interview, and she told Ingrid that some people particularly those in the anti vaccination community don't buy that. There are a bunch of different types of epilepsies. This still convinced that vaccines are to blame. I talked to a woman who she's a pretty big while known anti vaccine activists, she said to me these scientists are making up all these new kinds of epilepsy to to explain away the effects of vaccines. Oh, would you. What's your response to that? I think that's tragic. I think that's absolutely tragic because. These disorders have existed since time immemorial that these children and adults with severe epilepsy. Many seizure types and intellectual disability were around. There's nothing new about this disorders when I trained actually there was to be a quad. So it's sort of very old fashioned thinking, you know, you've got a bump on hit. And he got a severe disorders now with the new genetics. We actually can find the mutations. So I think it's tragic that somebody would say we make up diseases. I mean that undermines our whole lives would that the Ingrid this one more thing that's really important here. She says that while vaccine's aunt causing the epilepsy. They could be triggering a child. First sesia. He see from what we know about epilepsy. Seizures get sparked by something it could be a fever and infection flickering. Is stress. I hadn't been vaccinations at that point the nixed favor. Ovando illness would have triggered a fixation. So there's no way can avoid that. Even if you put your baby in a bubble on metro ordered infections. It would still happen. Conclusion. In rare cases, he's do have sages after a vaccine. These is scary. But as best we can tell the harmless, and there is very little evidence that vaccines caused epilepsy. The science suggests that these diseases are due to genetic conditions now, there's a very different condition that we want to tell you about that can be caused by vaccines, and that's an infection in the brain. Now the name of this infection. Sounds a lot like encephalopathy, but it's actually cold encephalitis. These cases are so rare that we only mention this because the anti vaccination community make it sound like the condition is way more common than it really is all the millions and millions of kids who have gotten vaccinated against Maizels that big institute of medicine report found only three cases through. Three cases of babies who got permanent brain damage from the vaccine. It's believed that the measles virus, which is in. This weakened foam in the vaccine somehow got into the kids brains any risk of brain damage to a kid is absolutely scary for parents. But they also have to compare that tiny tiny risk one out of millions to the risk that we haven't told you about yet. And that's what happens if you don't get vaccinated miss is actually what really convinced hevea. She was doing research for this episode. I mean, and it was very simple when I found out that measles kills one or two people for every thousand people who get it. I was like oh my God. You know, I compared that to the data. I was finding on the injuries that people can possibly get from the vaccine. Jeans and those pale in comparison to like bad bad things that can happen if Leo got one of these diseases. I was like forget it like get the vaccines. Right. And the thing is the measles is really contagious. It can live in the air for up to two hours. That's insane. And that's just one disease that we vaccinate for. There's also vaccinations for potassium, so hooping cough. Which leads to outs of debilitating coughing and kills one out of every hundred people who get it or the area a bacterial infection that can kill one in every ten people, and we have vaccinations for tetanus which causes severe muscle contractions that can make it so hard to breathe that up to two in every ten people who get it will die. And this is what's happening now even without medication and good hygiene, these diseases are really scary. So when it comes to science versus vaccines. Do they stack up? I up do vaccines cause autism. No, there are a large population. Studies that have looked at the measles mumps rubella vaccine as well as the preservative Mirasol and all of the well done studies show, no relationship between vaccines and autism. And while there is less research about kids getting a lot of vaccines at once the evidence, we have says that this is safe to next can back things 'cause sages. Yes. But it's rare. And although they might be really scary for parents as best assigns Patel. These seizures don't cause long-term ham and finally the risks of vaccines higher than the risks of the diseases themselves. No, really, we know this and the answer is no. And the thing is that although the risk of getting some of these diseases like measles is pretty low. Right now. That's because so many people get vaccinated as less and less people get the shots your chances of getting these diseases go up. In fact, a study published this year found that if there is a five percent drop in the number of kids getting the measles mumps rubella vaccine, it could lead to three times more kids getting Maizels each year. next week will be back with a brand new episode, the placebo effect does your mind have the power to heal. You. Also, there's absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. I'm talking about gone nothing. That wants symptom at all. Episode has been produced by head rajas me Wendy's come in and treaty Ravindran production help from rose room left out. Senior producer is Caitlin. Sorry. What edited this week by bly, Terrell and anywhere? Stresa fact checking by Michelle Harris with help from rose rim lap sound designed by Martin Peralto music written by Bobby Lord for this episode. We also spoke to Dr Saad Oma, Dr Neil housi-, Dr Paul off it and Dr Alison button, Heim an extra. Thanks to bunny. Stanway Ivana stereotypes go race in wall to Ludwig the Sukhum and family Joseph Lavelle Wilson. And of course, a huge, thanks to Lear Rogers. Hi, I'm Leah Rogers. And you're listening to lay Bessette Wendy. I could rape brand buddy. I feel like I wasted. A lot of time on jealousy. Turns out Sarah Canuk, host of the ultra mega hit podcast cereal. Used to be just as much of a jealous mess as the rest of us. Schlick? What's wrong with me? Like, why am I but grudging other people's success to hear more from Sara panic, including how she got over professional jealousy. Stop procrastinating and found the ultimate work wife listened to the cut on Tuesdays from Gimblett media and the cut subscribe now wherever you listen.

measles autism US Mumps Andrew Wakefield fever institute of medicine Leo California CDC Daniel salmon Bessette Wendy Ingrid Johns Hopkins University Gimblett media Wendy Zuckerman Heather tetanus
Blinded By the Night - DTNS 3409

Daily Tech News Show

29:35 min | 2 years ago

Blinded By the Night - DTNS 3409

"Thanks, everyone who supports daily tech news show at directly to find out. More head to daily tech new show dot com slash supports. This is daily tech news for Wednesday November fourteenth two thousand eighteen in Los Angeles on merit and from studio feline on Sarah, lean I'm Roger Chang, the producer of the show. Scott johnson. Usually with us on Wednesdays is out sick today. So send them your well wishes. We hope it gets better soon. We're going to have you prepare the main segment for today's show. We got some great e mails from folks who are affected by the Amazon headquartered decision, and we'll share their insights with you a little later on. But let's start with a few tech things, you should know. Lucca cast dated it's Android Iowa's apps with new ability to plan episode without subscribing, search episodes from podcast listing. Plus more curated sections for discovery and cross platform. Q support episode listening history and better apple watch support as well. And also now recognizes season and episode numbering Samsung says it's forthcoming accidents nine series ninety eight twenty chip has a pretty hot neural processing unit seven times faster than the ninety eight ten which is used in some models of the galaxy S nine so you can guess the nose might be used in some models of the ten Samsung also claims ninety eight twenty delivers twenty percent better conventional single core performance. Fifteen percent multi-core and a forty percent rise in power efficiency, the ninety eight twenty s GP uses arm's Mali g seventy six cores and can handle eight K video Xs and os nine twenty goes into mass production by the end of the year, the star in Malaysia reports that net flicks is testing a mobile. Only plan within the country the new tier costs seventeen ring it or about US four dollars. It's about half the price of the previous most basic tier which sells for thirty three ringgits per month net. Flicks confirmed the trial is running in a few countries overall. Let's talk a little more about Intel stick into LX to make compute sticks. And they have announced the neural compute stick the NCIS to. It's a thumb drive with self contained neural network running on video myriad exhibition processing unit VP you. If you will I lets users train machine learning systems locally. So as long as you have Olympic system with the USB port plug this thing in they even have a picture of somebody with a USB USB extension where they plugged in multiples of them. And then you can use it for your machine learning projects without having to rent space in the cloud or by expensive machinery and the NCIS to sells for one. Hundred bucks from Intel. So this is going to be something very affordable for developers. All right. So Tom, what's your best? Guess at. How a developer would prefer this over something in the cloud because I'm just sort of you know, if it's if if storage is of the utmost concern, this just as another layer of security, I would imagine. Yeah. It's another layer of security. It's convenience. It's not having to pay for the privilege to to use a cloud system. Now. Doug, granted, there's lots of free systems out there for for doing some machine learning, but it just gives you full control, and you can be off line. I don't know how much of a concern that is. But I know having the the ability to make this more portable put it in in your own system is going to be appealing, and and the only negative would be the cost. But at one hundred bucks, I'd be tempted to get one of these and play around with him if I had some time and no kidding. So yeah, I think this is going to be cool. And in fact, if there are any developers out there in the. Audience who think they'll benefit from this or or have already ordered one? Maybe today, send us an Email feedback at daily tech new show dot com. All right. Let's move onto something that is very cool. Go has released the night sight camera mode for all three of its pixel phones to parade universal praise. If he read the rags it lets you take pictures in the dark without any additional hardware without a tripod and long exposure nights that uses an algorithm to assemble a burst of consecutive Fram. So you know, it frames in in in in Inc. In consecutive order. Also picture with enough light into it to make that picture. It takes into account motion of the phone motion of objects in the scene amount of light. Overall takes fewer exposures for longer if the camera's still versus when it's hand-held because it's knows that it's being moved around. It's also trained to adjust color correction and wide balance. There is a negative photos may not look like they were taking a night. It also doesn't deal well with lap with fast. Moving objects like cars or brightly lit object. So there are some. There. There are some issues with this. However, the idea that being able to take a low light photo, which is difficult. I mean, even some the best cameras have have issues with this. Because the whole idea is that the shedder has to be open for longer, which means that things are more blurry that just sort of a nature of how photography works to be able to put an array of photos together to make that low light photo. Look, brighter is very very smart. No. Of course, you know, as as the verge points out in their article, which is a really good overview of of what this does it does tend to blow out a photo. So if you're looking for that kind of you know, night alleyway type thing, you might not get that. But you could say that about lots of different sensors. Yeah. It's truly for night filming. In fact, he he points out in the verge article that this isn't great in a city where you have a lot of light around. You might not want to use it and Google is actually pretty good at suggesting when it needs to be used you you can put into place, but it'll turn itself on it will give you the option to turn it on when it thinks you need it. And then you don't have to do anything else. It just once it's on. It's on it does its thing. It's all in software. So like, you said it doesn't have to have long exposures. It's it's doing it in software. And and yeah, if you've got enough light, it may overcompensate in certain ways, but but again as you said, it's doing more than just brightness. It's doing color correction, it's doing white balance and in truly dark situations where your eyes have enough light to see. But a picture would never come out. This is performing miracles. This is this is actually really impressive. Because what it means is. Is that whoever makes I mean, if if Google is willing to licensed technology to other Android handset makers that means they don't need to necessarily give you the fastest glass. You don't need the most sensitive largest censor. Because essentially what it's doing is what for digital photographers do right now, which is they manipulate the shoot and Ron you manipulate the image afterwards to try to get eke out the best quality image out of the information. You have and what's really fascinating is taking the whole HDR concept. When you do HR photo, you take one at a low exposure. So you get all the highlights at the at the upper end, you take one of the middle is kind of your baseline. And then you take one at the upper end where you get all the of all the parts of the image that are too dark to normally see. And then you composite them on top of each other nor to bring out everything equally. And this is just one step beyond that where it does the same process where it takes bracket photo three or four show. Shots. And then it comparatively adjusts the image. So you end up with an image that looks. Maybe not pleasing, but it's visible like, you can see stuff you can see someone's face instead of just like, you know, a ten thousand glasses or maybe hint of an eyeball. Yeah. And it's really really cool. Because as you said this is on software, and it's something that like, hey, you know, what this this? They have a flagship phone, but I can get the same technology in a in a mid weight phone that does something similar so I don't necessarily need to buy the flagship phone because I won't be able to take a shot at a bar. So what you're hoping I'm hoping. I'm hoping right now you need to buy the flagship bone, although to your point Google released this for all three models of the pixel. Now, you don't get all the features. If you're on the original pixel because the original pixel just doesn't have all the machinery at needs to take advantage of this. But but you can get it. So because it software they're rolling it out to all their models, which is great. It's also, you know, I don't want folks to be confused. It's not just brightening, and it's not just doing what HDR does as Roger explained. It's also adding some machine learning it can do that color correction. It can add detail it can sharpen things I think the verge has a really of the ones that I read the best demonstration of this. Because they do the thing where you can slide back and forth between an an untreated photo and the photo taken with nights site on and with nightside on. It's a world of difference. Now in a couple of them. You can see like, oh, you know, this bright object at night looks better without night sights. So you get to see both sides of it. But it's pretty amazing what it can do in super low light situations. Mozilla has published a guide called privacy not included that evaluates the security of popular holiday gift items. It's Mozilla gift guide for what both to buy and maybe not to buy thirty three of the seventy products in the guide carry a Mozilla badge that says, they meet minimum security standards. So automatically being encrypted automatic security updates requiring you to change a default password. If there is a default password stuff like that really targeting internet of things product descriptions also include things like whether a device uses its camera or it's microphone or its location services to track you, so some of the ones with a badge are the Nintendo switch the Google home the Amazon echo, apple TV, ipad, PS, four Xbox One. This is not a bash guide. This is saying, hey, we look at the practices of these devices. We're not talking about whether you trust the company, but one of the devices do with your privacy. Does that meet our minimum standards? Of a cool idea. Yeah. It really is. It's also a, you know, if you if you look at the privacy, non included list, it's nicely done sites and many products that I was I worried about these not necessarily, but it's nice to get that Mozilla seal of approval if you were will. Yeah. Especially okay. Let's take the Microsoft, Mark one. It's a smart speaker. It's off brand. But maybe I find a little bit of a deal on it. Right. And I'm thinking, oh, I might buy this for one of my relatives. My my sister or my father share. But by less of that brand. Yeah. I haven't worked with this company before you're not totally sure and Muslim has done your research for you. It's meets our minimum security standards. Okay. Suddenly, I feel a little better about it. And if I want to dig in myself that talk about what kind of encryption it uses what its privacy policy is what kind of controls. I have you can you can dig into some of the stats there. It's at the Mozilla foundation Mozilla dot org. We'll have a link to it in the show notes as well. Go check it out. Sorry. I'm looking at this adorable alarm clock that I just really want now Sarah for. Thanks. Yes. Was that obvious enough? Alphabet owned deep minds health division, including the stream at for assisting doctors and nurses will be transferred to alphabet owned Google's Google health division. The deep mind health division has partnerships with ten inch has hospitals to process medical data in the UK the street map ran into controversy over its use of one point six million patients data in Royal free hospital in London lawyer and privacy expert. Julia Powell's pointed out, the deep mine promise to never connect people's intimate identifiable health, data to Google accounts products or services and deemed the transfer trust demolition deep. Mine told the BBC that patient data remains under our in it NHS partners, strict control. Ye this is a tricky one. I I think it's a little bit of an overreaction to say it's trust demolition. I think the trust was already may be demolished. If you're upset about this. If you don't trust Google, you're. Not going to like health information being transferred to Google. And remember there was a problem with those NHS hospital data. They were slapped on the wrist by the courts for not properly informing people that the information was being used, although they did not think it was being used responsibly. It's just that you needed to disclose it. It was an anonymous is an aggregated and protected and all the right ways deep mind is right that this is all under the hospitals control. So it's compliant with the law so really moving into Google health divisions. Shouldn't be a problem unless you don't trust Google don't trust the Google is going to keep being a good steward of this kind of information. Yeah. It's just makes you side. Right. 'cause it's it's not that Google is going to do anything. Like, I can't eat them. I can't really poke holes in what's going on here. But I understand why people would say we'll, but why? Yeah. And it's because they think will Google could use this data to inform their advertising Google could use this data without telling us again the way deep minded once Google could do this. And that and I think you can overweight the sort of thing. But the fact that deep mind promise never to connect it with Google accounts products or services. I mean, Google can continue to say that except that Google health is a Google service. So now, you have to hedge it and say, we'll never connected to Google accounts products or other Google services. But then if you don't connected to Google of account, and it's Google health. Well, that seems kind of weird doesn't it? Yeah. And you know, you mentioned hedging the sorts of sort of thing, especially if you're in the legal field if you sit the outset. Oh, well, if this is happening, we'll Google better. Not do anything with people's information. Then the company may be less likely to do. So in the future. And you're on record of saying that, you know, you had a problem with that back when Verizon announced its capital expenditures would decline and deployment of infrastructure would remain the same. So in other words, not increase sprint and AT. And T of also reduced their overall capital expenditures numbers for twenty eighteen the carriers. Attribute the declining investment to timing saying like, oh, we just kind of finish them investment. And then we won't be needing more investment to later. So it's not going to happen this year as well as more efficient technologies saying that new technology means we just don't have to spend as much to get the same punch out of our investment. So we, you know, virtualization things like that being the we're reducing our cost which is great all of this is good news. If the savings cascade down to us, which they may or may not as far as you know. You know, I think we overestimate how much they don't. They definitely cascade down to us slower than we would like, but, but you know, eventually, we did see unlimited plans sort of spread themselves around with caveats, but still better than the the high priced metering that we had before on the other hand. Sarah. Didn't these companies all say that the reason they needed the open internet guidelines repealed was so that they could take off the shackles and increase investment? Yes. I am. Glad to hear that five. G? Deployment will be so inexpensive for all these big companies and will enjoy the the next wave of of connectivity. Yeah. I don't know, man. Okay. I I think I think a lot of this is you know, it depends on region. And and if there's not a lot of infrastructure that that Verizon in this particular case is going to be putting a lot of investment into over the next year couple of years. Sure. Okay. But it. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me based on how many regions of the world, really. But you know, as far as varieties market, or or any particular market goes that accompany, it'd be like, well, we're pretty much done. Yeah. I think it's tempting to want to spin the narrative to be you you lied about declining infrastructure before to get net neutrality repealed. And now you were lying about increasing investment after net neutrality got repealed, and you're just a bunch of liars. I don't know that that's actually what's going on. But I think it is fair to say like, hey, you don't necessarily make case that you needed. These shackles off if your investment was pretty much level, and is continuing to be the level or declining because of technology because what what you're saying. Here is the technology. Allowed the investment. And so even if net neutrality rules had increased the cost it wasn't going to increase it as much as they were trying to make people think it would have. Folks, if you want to get all the tech headlines each state about five minutes, be sure to subscribe to daily tech, headlines dot com. We got a lot of cool reactions from people affected by the Masan headquarters story, Sarah. Yeah, we really did. And we're going to read a few of them now and kinda kinda kinda pick them apart. And and see what we agree with Arthur from Arlington Virginia notes that Amazon's Kurt operations in the area. Which as we noted on the show yesterday are already pretty bast are in Ashburn. Arthur says that's well outside the beltway and the people working in living. They're not gonna wanna commute into Irwin ten Amazon's inside the beltway operations are quotes mainly tied to the government in these are not really HQ function. So Arthur doesn't think that this counts as an expansion for Amazon. Really he and peach also pointed out something that a lot of coverage didn't pass on which is that Virginia Tech will be opening technology campus, adjacent to Amazon. So these are these are good on the ground reports from someone actually in Virginia. I love this. Thank you. Arthur. Granted I think it's fair to say, okay. The folks out in Ashburn aren't going to be feeding into Amazon's Kern opperations, but it is still an area that Amazon is familiar with and was negotiating with. And I don't think they ever thought they would move the people in. But it's it's a fair point inside the beltway stuff, though, I don't know what. Amazon is going to use this second regional office. It's not even HQ anymore. It's a regional office for my suspicion is that it probably will have a lot to do with the government cloud of cloud that Amazon operates, especially if they get that DOD bid thereafter that will probably operate out of there because it's right next to the Pentagon. So I'm less inclined to a seed to to the inside the beltway not mattering because it's government stuff. I think it really does. But yeah, maybe it's unfair to say that that folks being out Nash burner are are part of a of an. Operation that really has any effect on something pretty far away in right on the Potomac, basically. So I don't know what do you what do you think of this, Sarah? Well, you know, one of the things that I'm I didn't realize and thank you Arthur is pointing out the Virginia Tech, huge college opening technology campus, adjacent to Amazon, and how the two might you know, Amazon might funnel and money for research projects, which would make a lot of sense. And like, you said the region itself is definitely skewed government wise. But I think a lot of folks don't realize, you know, even when you hear early intesne Virginia. It's like, well, it's adjacent to Washington DC. Okay. Oh, all right. So, you know, you're you're in this era in this actually, huge metropolitan area. That's not. Yes, they are. They are separate from each other. But collectively, it's it's closer to a lot of industry than than one might think. If they're not from. With that other Silicon Valley kind of feel in Virginia AOL used to when when I was living in Arlington, the big AOL. Skyscraper was right there downtown Arlington. You could see it across the Tomac. When you're in dining when I was working for AOL. That's still where the headquarters was I never went there. But it was too bad. I think it's gone. That's perhaps true it's oath now. But now now it's something else. Paul in New York, a continued the Amazon feedback noting that real estate developers are happy about this. Because of the glut of already unoccupied high end housing in New York was on the verge of causing a recession in the real estate industry while local residents in queens are likewise upset at the prospect of even more gentrification of the borough and further rises in rent and cost of living economic policies in New York are always a delicate balance between appeasing those two groups goes on to say that the surge by Amazon reminded him of searches to fill faculty positions in academia, Paul happens to work in the in the sector where they open at wide. But they usually know an advanced who they actually want for the position that they're great comparison, Paul. I I've been around not even in academia, those kinds of situations where they even know who they're going to hire. But they have to go through the motions to to keep it open. Just in case. And then they end up hiring to a higher. It says, you're right. That is very similar as far as the on the ground New York report. Again, I loved that. We've got somebody in Arlington somebody in New York who or at least northern Virginia who can comment on this. I was in Long Island city for a wedding, Ron Richards, cut had his his wedding there in queens a year ago a little more than a year ago, but you're going over, and that is a very I don't know it I wouldn't want to say, it's a hipster area. But it's trying to be there are a lot of lofts neighborhood than. Yes. It seen a lot of development. And if that development isn't paying off then yes, they're absolutely going to want to try to lure Amazon in because apparently some of the other folks in that area have been even downsizing and moving their businesses out there corporate businesses out, so yeah, this is ripe for the Pickens for Amazon the way Paul describes it and is going to bring up those gentrification concerns for sure. So you got earthern Paul kind of you know, on the ground at the new HQ twos. But then there's Eric who's a tech worker in Columbus Ohio who wrote on saying it's hard to overestimate the impact on the tech job market would have had in his area, especially given how Amazon was saying. It would be a headquarters on par would Seattle's a big Eric says when Amazon basically decided to just expand to to existing offices of feels like a bayton switch the Amazon was just using us to get better tax breaks for what it already knew. It was going to do. I realize Columbus never had the best chance. But to come away feeling that you never really had a chance was where just being used hurts. Yeah. And this is where even though Arthur's right about Amazon's operations, maybe really not being related in northern Virginia. I don't know if that makes you feel any better when he's like so you already had a presence there. And now, you're you're gonna go there. And even if you don't consider the presences that they had their New York and Washington DC. See areas pretty obvious selections. And if you're Columbus thinking like, hey, maybe we have a chance this would really help us. We've got a university. We've got skilled workers, you know. This would really propel what is a thriving city to thrive even more and get us. You know in the game a little more. I imagine Kansas City and a few other places feel the same way. Well, and again, the promise of fifty thousand jobs and that was somewhat vague. But that was that was the number that got thrown out when when Amazon and said that it was, you know, looking for its its new headquarters. Again. And and as Eric describes it would've made a big difference in something that Columbus, Ohio. It would've made a big difference on a lot of places. It would make the difference anywhere. But there are certain regions where you know, you you the the the job market would have transformed the city bigger impact for sure. Yeah. Exactly. So so, yeah, it just goes to show you all the stuff. And and I think that all the feedback got on. This is is really I opening and and super appreciated to remember how things are different deputy on where you live. But I also think it really illustrates how strong Amazon is to, you know, be crushing dreams. And and, you know, having people say well, hold on a second. You weren't even really being serious about the fact that you were going to come to our city, and it's you know, it's the power of Amazon. I can't think of that many other companies that that would have such a big impact. Yeah. I. I love first of all that we've got not just emails about this. We we got lots of emails with opinions. But but he mails from people who are there. Like, I'm in northern Virginia. I live here. I'm in New York. I live here. I'm in Columbus. I'm in one of the cities that didn't get it. And here's my opinion. It's better than just hearing. Our opinions we get to flush it out a little with some perspectives from people on the ground. So thank you for that. I don't fault Amazon for picking these cities picking these cities make sense, you are near Cornell in New York, as I think in another part of his Email, Paul mentioned, and as Arthur mentioned, you're you're right there next to the university in Virginia. So he NPD both pointed out Virginia Tech is even expanding its campus there that was one of the important things. You've got some, you know, some some infrastructure benefits to New York and Arlington, and I think that government con. Attract business that Amazon is trying to build is. Absolutely. Why they picked that those all make sense. I don't think that Amazon shouldn't have picked these. I don't love the fact that they went around using other cities as bargaining chips on the one hand. Maybe it's super smart, right? They got a better deal than they would've otherwise. But you also have a company in Amazon that doesn't get a lot of the negative feelings that Google or a Facebook get these days, and I feel like they may burn a little bit of that credit. Maybe not all of it. But they burn some of it here. Well, somebody who doesn't burn anything with us as a person in our sub Brad. Thanks, everybody. Who participates in our read it you can submit stories and vote on them at daily techniques, show dot ready dot com. We're also on Facebook hang outs. Facebook dot com slash groups slash daily tech news show feedback. Appreciate it in both places. Hey, folks, we are in the midst of changing things around on the patriot. And one of the things you can get now, which I I don't know if this makes a difference if you're not a patron, but if you are you can choose whether to back us at the good day internet tier or the teen s tier for the same amount of money say money, but you pick which reward you want the tier gives you just this show. 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Panic Virus Pt. 2

Medical Mysteries

41:37 min | 8 months ago

Panic Virus Pt. 2

"This episode contains graphic descriptions of medical afflictions that some people may find disturbing. We advise caution for listeners under thirteen now ten year olds in pointy party. Hats ran around laughing. They dodged tables set up with wrapped gifts and cake. Boys and girls darted behind trees. Caught up in a high stakes round of tag. The birthday boy's father controversial medical researcher Andrew Wakefield called the game to a halt. He beckoned the kids over thinking. It might be time to sing the birthday song or open presents. They gathered around but Wakefield wasn't thinking about cake or gifts. He wanted the party gas to do him a favor. The children lined up single file. In exchange for five pounds each had attorney kits strapped around their arm. Wakefield inserted a needle into a vein and drew blood andor nylon balloons and colorful streamers. A few children fainted. One turned and vomited ice cream all over his mother but Wakefield got the blood samples in nineteen ninety nine. Wakefield told this story to a crowd of parents at the Mind Institute in California explaining people said to me. You can't do that. Children won't come back to your birthday parties. I said we live in a market economy next year. They'll want ten pounds. Surprisingly the crowd laughed and laughed later. Wakefield changed his story. The Birthday Party blood draw had never made any one vomit or feigned. It was just a funny dramatic story. Nothing worth getting upset over. In fact he saw himself as a victim he studied the connection between vaccines and autism. For years just for the medical establishment to reject his findings and demonize him with no funding and no supporters. He'd had no choice but to go to extreme lengths to continue his research. When our bodies fail we trust doctors to diagnose the problem but medicine isn't always an exact science sometimes a guessing game with life or death stakes. This is medical mysteries a podcast original. I'm molly and I'm Richard. Every Tuesday will look at the strangest real life medical cases in history and the experts who raced against the clock to solve them as we follow. These high intensity stories will explore medical research. That might solve the puzzle this week. In part two will analyze all the evidence and try to find an answer. You can find episodes of medical mysteries and all. Other Park cast originals. For free on spotify over ever. You listen to podcasts to stream medical mysteries for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type medical mysteries in the search bar at par cast. Were grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at Parkas cast and twitter at podcast network? This is our second episode. On Andrew Wakefield doctor turns scammer although his experiments were filled with skewed data and financial conflicts of interest his conclusions and recommendations spread through the world as if they themselves were contagious. Last week we discussed the publication of Wakefield's Lancet paper which suggested that vaccines can cause autism after his conclusions hit the press panic swept through London. Even after the British medical establishment throughout Wakefield's findings the viral idea continued to spread this week. We'll follow Wakefield in the United States where he tries to rebuild his brand and con another nation will meet investigators like Brian. Deer and Richard Horton. Who tried to inoculate the public against a dangerous idea that it's safer not to vaccinate children. Andrew Wakefield had spent his career searching for the link between autism got disorders and vaccinations. He claimed that the measles mumps and rubella vaccine could cause autism Crohn's disease and other disorders his most notorious paper published in the Lancet launched. A media Maelstrom throughout London. Alarmed parents stopped vaccinating. Their children suddenly diseases that had been under control like measles. Were at risk of reappearing in large numbers in industrialized nations a subsequent investigation discredited Wakefield utterly. He was forced out of his teaching position at the Royal Free Hospital School of Medicine in two thousand and one disgraced. He left to start a new in Austin Texas but the international move couldn't get Wakefield away from his critics one of the harshest was Richard. Horton the editor of The Lancet. He turned a new leaf after helping caused the whole panic by Publishing Wakefield's article in the first place now. He was ashamed of his role. He called his decision to publish. Wakefield's paper embarrassingly naive. But he didn't know how to make things right. Medical professionals like Horton's spent their lives fighting microscopic viruses and bacteria but no one knew how to stop a viral idea. Horton figure that since Wakefield's conclusions had spread in newspapers and on TV. Maybe he could release accurate information the same way so he published articles in one piece. He argued that since nineteen ninety eight. Researchers had convincingly refuted any association between the vaccine and autism not one person or group has confirmed the original findings in the Lancet paper but as it turned out calls to reason and order didn't make headlines Alarmist Anti VACs conspiracy theories did few major media sources picked up on his statement Wakefield's misinformation continued to spread. And now he was pedaling. His theories in a brand new country in two thousand. Four Wakefield's claims about vaccinations and autism. Hadn't yet taken off in America but he took hard in the panic happening across the pond. Wakefield didn't see the dropping vaccination rates as a cause for concern. They were a source of hope. If his colleagues wouldn't listen to him perhaps more ordinary parents would wakefield saw himself as a martyr exiled from his homeland for daring to speak truth to power. He wasn't going to let the growing tide of criticism. Shut him down. According to Seth Manukyan's the panic virus. Wakefield said I have already lost my job. But if you come to me and say this has happened to my child. What's My job? What did I sign up for when I went into medicine to look after your child? I'm here to address the concerns of the patient. There's a high price to pay for that. That price involved exposes by investigative journalists. Like Brian Dear. Dear was notorious for taking down corrupt drug companies but in the early two thousands. He turned his attention to Wakefield in two thousand four. He announced his plans to publish information. About Wakefield's clear conflict of interest. The research for his Lancet paper had been funded by anti vaccination advocates deers investigation threatned. What little stability. Wakefield had in his new American life for the most part people in the United States had never even heard of him. If deers piece when public Wakefield's new friends and neighbors would hate him to address. The report Wakefield immediately flew to London to meet with his former colleagues and Horton. The editor of the Lancet Horton gave them forty eight hours to explain themselves. In a written statement to the press he'd already decided to partially retract. Wakefield's paper based on the allegations but a statement would help Wakefield. Save face by this time. Horton knew he couldn't cure the viral idea by publishing facts but maybe he could immunize the public to this misinformation my getting Wakefield to apologize and agree. His findings were wrong but Wakefield wasn't willing to cooperate. He and two other holdouts Dr Peter Harvey and Dr John. Linnell wrote a detailed response letter about why they thought the papers retraction was a total joke. Which meant now. Wakefield and Horton were facing off in the news in their debates were incredibly high stakes a potential measles epidemic was on the line on September ninth. Two thousand four Horton appeared on channel. Five news to make his usual statements against Wakefield but the told him some surprising numbers. The station had pulled their audience. Seventeen percent were convinced. The vaccine was safe. A whopping eighty three percent were convinced it was not Horton's whirlwind tour. An effort to immunize the public against dangerous ideas had done little to change opinions. He'd forgotten one of the key concepts of viral Aji if a patient is already infected. It's too late for a vaccine. He couldn't reach people who were already contaminated by Wakefield's ideas that contamination translated to outbreaks and deaths in the UK. According to journalist Brian deer immunization rates in Britain dropped from ninety two percent in nineteen ninety eight to eighty percent in the early two thousands. The problem wasn't just the parents who chose not to vaccinate the children. There were also immuno. Compromised patients infants the elderly people with HIV or other immune disorders and so on these people couldn't get vaccinated for health reasons. Typically immuno-compromised people are safe. Thanks to something called herd immunity. The idea is simple. You can't get sick if you're never around sick people so if an immuno compromised persons spends all the time around people who have vaccines they don't have to worry about measles mumps rubella and so on there's no one to catch them from but when many people are unvaccinated it's easier for diseases to spread and when parents fell for Wakefield's lies. They weren't just putting their own children at risk. They were endangering all immuno-compromised people which was part of why journalist. Brian deer was so confused. Wakefield wooden willingly let hundreds of people get sick and die just for profit would he? Dear was fascinated by Wakefield in part because he didn't believe the researcher was simply a monster. There had to be some logical reason for what he was doing. After reviewing countless talks essays and interviews dear concluded that Wakefield was more like a cult leader. He truly believed what he said about autism and vaccines but he wasn't one hundred percent honest Wakefield knowingly used manipulative tactics to get his message out. In other words dear thought Wakefield was both a zealot and a puppet master. It was a dangerous combination. This was a man who truly would stop at nothing to spread his Gospel. He had nothing to lose. This was consistent with claims. Richard Horton had made during a news broadcast years before he explained. I don't think Wakefield will ever be satisfied. He's invested his entire career and reputation in this belief this hypothesis for him to refute it now would almost be an indication of his personality and nothing. The medical community did could stop him throughout two thousand four. Wakefield Fund raised for a center dedicated to autism treatment and research in two thousand five with the help of a one million dollar donation. He set up. An Austin Clinic called the thoughtful House Center for children. The center was a one stop shop for autism treatment. Care Education and therapy except it was less of a resource and more of a front for indoctrination. The thoughtful house promoted anti vaccination conspiracy theories and offer dangerous alternative medicine. Some patients underwent key Latian a risky and sometimes fatal procedure designed to remove metal. Build up from the body. Other young children were put on extreme diets. Although his methodology didn't work Wakefield knew how to draw in a crowd soon after opening their doors. The new clinic was bustling. It didn't matter that Wakefield didn't have a US medical license. He was cutting all the way down to using the name thoughtful house. It implied that his treatments compared to the alternatives were caring and considerate doodoo practices like this in two thousand six. Wakefield was investigated by the General Medical Council a governing body of medical practitioners in Britain. The hearings had the potential to discredit Wakefield within the medical community. But Richard Horton feared. They might have the opposite effect on the public at large because they give Dr Wakefield a platform in an interview he said when Wakefield walks into the GMC he will have a national stage. That has been denied him. The outcome of the GMC's proceedings could be a lose lose for the Department of Health for Wakefield supporters. You will either be vindicated as a hero or go down as a martyr to his cause nevertheless the hearings went forward the GMC accused Wakefield of having undisclosed financial conflicts of interest ordering unnecessarily invasive procedures for children failing to detail how patients were recruited for the study breaking the Hospitals Code of Ethics and showing a callous disregard for any distress or pain. His patients may have suffered Wakefield denied all the charges launching a lengthy two and a half year investigation and the review. It was widely reported on as Horton had feared Wakefield had now reached a massive audience the rumors and misinformation spread almost as fast as the measles up next the court battle continues as people all over Britain and the United States get sick. Hi It's Richard. If you haven't heard the new podcast series supernatural with Ashley Flowers yet. I highly recommend you head on over and subscribe today. It's a fantastic series. That's gotten off to a very successful start. So thank you to everyone who tuned in so far. We're very proud of it. Every Wednesday Ashley Flowers takes on a different crime or mystery where the most fitting theory isn't always the most conventional here are some of the incredible episodes that have been featured so far where the deaths of two Brazilian men are result of making contact with spirits on Mars. Get closer to the truth than ever before. Regarding the mystifying lead masks case who and what were responsible for the unexplained death of Australia's Somerton man dig deeper into the peculiar details and poetry involved in the case and was Italian. Theoretical physicist at Torrey Myron. His disappearance caused by his discovery of time travel or was it something more sinister. Each week Ashley takes on the strange and surreal to explain some of the world's most bizarre true crime occurrences. It has mystery. It has intrigued and it certainly has my attention. I hope you enjoy it to follow supernatural with Ashley. Flowers free on spotify over ever. You get your podcasts now. Back to the story in two thousand seven fifty year old researcher Dr Andrew Wakefield was investigated by the General Medical Council. Meanwhile journalist Brian deer was working tirelessly to stop him. He wrote about Wakefield's financial conflicts of interests his manipulation of data within the original experiment. And the idea that the medical establishment itself was protecting him. It was a weird allegation to make since Wakefield was embroiled in a massive hearing but deer argued. That Wakefield's lives should have been caught much earlier. He explained in the Guardian. That restaurants are checked for cleanliness. Athletes ARE CHECKED FOR STEROIDS. But rarely was there ever a chat? On scientists Wakefield had gained notoriety. Thanks to that lack of oversight. His views had worked themselves into the public mind. It was impossible in two thousand eight to hear the word autism without thinking vaccine according to the CDC ninety one percent of measles outbreaks that year occurred amongst people who were unvaccinated or of unknown vaccination status and sadly this resurgence of measles had been all too preventable and foreseeable when vaccination rates fall. Measles is one of the first diseases to return because of how easily it spreads to compare it to another recent epidemic one person infected with corona virus will spread it to an average of two others but one person infected with measles will spread it to eighteen in a horrible twist. Measles became widespread in Europe in two thousand eight. After it was thought to have been entirely eliminated a decade prior and epidemiologists researchers and doctors were left scratching their heads. They knew how to prevent the spread of disease. Get VACCINATION RATES UP. But the public was uncooperative. Nobody was clear on how to stop a viral wave of misinformation journalist. Brian deer continued to publish little by little. He hoped to change parents minds and get them to vaccinate in two thousand nine his Sunday. Times article proclaimed M M are Dr Andrew Wakefield fixed data on Autism. The peace confirmed that. Wakefield had manipulated his findings to support his predetermined conclusions. The medical community had known this for a while but deer was working to make it public knowledge. The key was to get readers to care. Richard Horton did what he could to help. The Lancet finally completely retracted Wakefield's paper in February. Two thousand ten under the BYLINE. The editors of the Lancet they said that the link between autism and the M. M. R. Vaccine was utterly false additionally the Lancet found Wakefield at all guilty of ethical violations Wakefield and his colleagues had failed to get the necessary clearances to conduct the procedures. They performed. Ilia colonoscopies biopsies and lumbar punctures. Finally Wakefield study was completely and utterly debunked but he didn't take the ruling lying down Wakefield complained to the Independent. I was discredited. In the eyes of those who wanted to see me. Discredited in other words those who had an interest in maintaining the status quo and sadly his fans and supporters were still listening to him the longer. The debate raged on the more divisive. The issue vaccination became ordinary mothers and fathers flocked to Wakefield they saw him as a savior who is fighting big medicine to protect their. They refused to listen to credible researchers or physicians no matter what they said in two thousand ten the General Medical Council called Wakefield to appear once again at GMC headquarters. They finally come to a conclusion after over two and a half years of hearings. He showed up with his wife before he climbed the steps or walk through the doors. He kissed mothers and hugged children with autism on the street. The crowd held up signs guilty of helping damaged kids and were with Wakefield crucified for helping sick kids with autism. Despite all these supporters over the past three years Wakefield had failed to find a single parent who would give evidence in his defense. Perhaps his legal team understood that their testimony was incredible as it wasn't based on scientific fact and with no evidence and no witnesses to back up his arguments. Andrew Wakefield was found guilty of dozens of charges including subjecting children to unnecessarily invasive procedures. He was barred from practicing medicine. This was the harshest sanction the GMC could issue in the wake of the ruling. Wakefield resigned from the thoughtful house. The clinic refused to answer questions about him and struck all mentions of him from their medical archives. A statement from the clinic said we fully support Wakefield's decision to leave thoughtful house in order to make sure that the controversy surrounding the recent findings of the General Medical Council does not interfere with the important work. That are dedicated. Team is doing to further distance themselves from controversy. The thoughtful house renamed itself in two thousand ten. It became the Johnson Center for child. Health and development with a new name came a new ethos. Their mission statement changed to advancing the understanding of childhood development through Clinical Care Research and education. They're updated website contained no mention of vaccine triggered gut problems and to Google search for the name Wakefield on their page returned no results he was erased from the very organisation he'd started however Wakefield's beliefs continued to spread nothing the GMC Horton or deer. Had said could stop him. The thoughtful houses rebranding hadn't slowed the spread of his ideas. The public was strangely. Open to the idea that vaccines were secretly business. It didn't help that right around the time of the Lancet paper the FDA released a statement suggesting maybe there was a danger lurking in childhood. Vaccinations it all came down to an ingredient called by mirasol. Thi- mirasol is a preservative that helps prevent contamination. It was formally approved for use in the nineteen forties when physicians determined that it was harmless in small doses however it contains mercury and in the nineteen seventies new research on mercury suggested. The element was more dangerous than doctors had originally believed over the next two decades the FDA and medical professionals began seriously reevaluating the use of products containing mercury they issue detailed recommendations that women especially pregnant women limit their consumption of certain types of fish as for vaccines with. Mira saw the FDA conducted numerous studies on potential mercury poisoning. The even tried to evaluate whether there was a link between Thi- maricel and autism. They found nothing. No single data point. The suggested by Mirasol was dangerous nonetheless. The FDA slowly began phasing Mirasol Outta vaccine manufacturer. The reasoning was that new preservatives. Were available and it was best. Avoid the risk of mercury poisoning remote as it was. The ruling caused an uproar to some anti vaxxers seemed like a confirmation. The government was hiding something dangerous from the Public Wakefield fan the flames he described the use of Mirasol as one big cover up by the. Cdc He later said. Scientists originally identified a very high risk of autism following mercury exposure. They then went away and manipulated. The data manipulated manipulated until they got rid of that affect more controversy emerged in two thousand seven when many countries launched a new vaccine program targeting the sexually transmitted infection human papillomavirus or HP the HP vaccine was primarily given to teenage girls. Some conservative religious groups fought back arguing encourage sexual promiscuity in Ireland Japan and Denmark media outlets reported that the vaccine caused disabilities. This was false. Did drive potential patients away. Some anti vaccine were swayed by other more superficial reasons. Wakefield's views attracted celebrities like actress model and TV Host Jenny. Mccarthy and actor and comedian Jim Carey. They endorsed his viewpoints and gave him an even bigger platform. Mccarthy explained as the parent of child who regressed into autism after his vaccinations. I have always considered Andy Wakefield to be the symbol of someone who stood up for truth. Despite extreme pressure to stand down the anti vaccination movement grew even as it left unprotected children for dead and plenty of misinformation in its wake meanwhile the media glorified Andrew Wakefield and his followers were gaining traction next Wakefield hits the movie theaters TV screens and minds of Americans everywhere. Now back to the story through the late nineties and early two thousands journalist. Brian deer and medical researcher. Richard Horton worked. Tirelessly to expose Andrew Wakefield's lies but it felt like one step forward two steps back. Despite getting booted out of the General Medical Council Wakefield was still invited to rallies all across the United States in two thousand thirteen Wakefield now in his mid fifties with sitting pretty in Texas. He'd even began work on a book about parents who have been falsely accused of Munchausen Syndrome by proxy Wakefield was fixated on false accusations. Probably because he believed he was falsely accused himself he seemingly fell further into paranoia believing there was a growing international conspiracy against him. You'd think those kinds of wild allegations would drive supporters away but they actually made Wakefield even more appealing. His primary appeal lay in a certainty in the truth his truth most parents intern felt validated by a medical professional. Who gave them something? Concrete to blame autism on every other doctor just shrugged their shoulders and failed to give them any kind of answer. Scientists don't know exactly how autism is caused but they believe it stems from a combination of genetics and the environment it shows up with greater frequency when parents are older and went prescription. Drugs like vow boric. Acid and solidified are taken by the mother during pregnancy. However an autistic child can also be born to a pair of young healthy parents. Generally a child can't be diagnosed with autism and tells they're about a year and a half or two years old. This fact is telling for many ANTIBAC- sers who note that. Most doctors begin giving babies M. R. Vaccines around the child's first birthday Wakefield supporters. Say THIS IS DAMNING. Evidence pro vaccine activists. Say This is a coincidence. But can explain why autism shows up when it does even more baffling autism rates has significantly increased over the last few decades. And it's not clear. Why but when a parent learns that. Their child has an untreatable condition. It's natural to wonder how it happened. Wakefield promised to give them answers one mother whose son was afflicted with Autism told. The New York Times I remember Dr Wakefield was there and it was just validation. I don't care if my son was treated or cured. Just the validation that we as parents who knew something was wrong. Got An answer. Someone said Yeah. This is not just autism. Your son has a real medical issue that we can treat the problem. Wakefield couldn't actually treat autism and the cure he offered refusing to vaccinate was making more people sick in two thousand thirteen. The New York Times reported on over twelve hundred reported cases of measles in the UK. Public Health England an agency of the UK Department of Health launched a vaccination campaign they targeted children ages ten to sixteen. Who'D MISSED THEIR SHOTS? When Wakefield's propaganda first appeared the movement was called the Mr catch-up campaign and through it about eleven percent of previously unvaccinated. Children not immunized as for the other eighty nine percent pro vaccination kept using the same strategies to try to reach people they debunked Wakefield time and time again. A study led by physician. Angelie Jane in the Journal of the American Medical Association Reviewed Ninety Five Thousand Seven hundred twenty seven children by comparison Wakefield had only examined twelve. The newer study found no correlation between vaccination and autism even with academia working to fix the misinformation campaign. Wakefield's teachings permeated the United States. He wasn't only charismatic and charming man but he was a brilliant self marketer he directed and Co wrote a feature film called faxed from cover up to catastrophe which was supposed to play at the two thousand. Sixteen TRIBECA Film Festival. You can guess what it was about. Robert Deniro one of TRIBECA 's founders said that he supported the movie he explained my wife Grace and I have a child with autism and we believe is critical that all of the issues surrounding the causes of autism be openly discussed and examined. Dr William Shatner approach of preventive. Medicine called the decision to show the film sad because Tribeca had reached far beyond New York with the festival took place he said. Scientists are all for ongoing reasonable debate and discussion but these are ideas that have proved to be incorrect. Many many many times over the past fifteen years. Many filmmakers medical professionals argued that VACs threatened the credibility of the festival in general following. A storm of criticism faxed was pulled from the festival lineup. However it still showed at the prestigious Angelika Film Center in Manhattan critics described it as one-sided propaganda and yet many audience members left in tears profoundly affected by what they had seen screenings that included talks with Wakefield sold out. He had a marvelous ability to appeal to emotion. The strongest emotional appeals come from our own friends and families. Wakefield's lies spread that way too before long. The notion was spreading through communities as much as it was spreading through the news. There seemed to be two primary groups that bought into Wakefield's propaganda rich parents into alternative lifestyles and ethnic minorities in two thousand nineteen. The New York Times published a headline that said where will measles breakout next Chicago? Los Angeles or Miami scientists predict they found that vaccination rates were lowest among children attending fancy anti private institutes like Waldorf schools however the minority communities were even more concerning Wakefield was infecting vulnerable people with his ideology people who didn't always have the resources to get treatment. It's their kids. Did get for example in two thousand Seventeen Wakefield was directly linked to an outbreak in the Somali American community in Minneapolis Minnesota. Another occurred in Brooklyn within the Orthodox Jewish community as Mayor Bill de Blasio issued a public health. Emergency the public reacted with I R- instead of understanding. They argued that it was the vaccines that we're giving people. Measles Jewish leaders in MUNCIE NEW YORK. Set up a rally with anti vaccination speakers Dr Lawrence Pelewski said it's fascinating because we're told how contagious diseases but somehow it's centered in the Jewish community. He was implying that doctors were distributing tampered vaccines which would give Jewish children a new strain of the measles virus. Rabbi Hillel Handler added We Hustle. Deem have been chosen as the target the campaign against us as being successful something was infecting communities all over the United States and the UK something more pernicious than measles or any other disease a deadly wave of misinformation and sadly the media only helped Wakefield even negative coverage just made him more famous no matter how scathing the article or how well argued the point. The press couldn't seem to stop or slow him. Brian deer published dozens of articles debunking. Wakefield in the late. Two Thousand Ten's but still the death rates rose. As the vaccine panic became a national myth. Measles cases across Europe saw a whopping three hundred percent increase in two thousand seventeen over twenty thousand instances with thirty five documented deaths by May of two thousand nine thousand nine hundred and up to eight thirty nine cases of measles were reported in the United States the highest number in the country since nineteen ninety. Four around two hundred twenty infected people were found in Rockland. County The New York site of an Orthodox Jewish anti vaccine rally desperate New York authorities tried to force children to get vaccinated. They issued thousand dollar fines against parents under threat. Caretakers reluctantly vaccinated their children others campaigned against the new requirements. One Mother of a disabled twelve year old girl said I shouldn't have took her for the Mr Vaccine. And you know everyone will say. Don't blame yourself but I do. I blame myself. There's not a day go by. I don't cry because of what happened. Even today. We still have a big problem with enforcing vaccinations as the old saying goes ally. We'll go around the world while truth is pulling its boots. On anti vaccination movements exploit anxiety Wakefield's lofty rhetoric. Winds parents over. They described his theory as the pieces falling into place. His emotional arguments continue to overpower deers. Logical facts Andrew Wakefield claims to believe that one in two children will develop autism. I two thousand thirty two with fearmongering statements like this. He's become incredibly rich famous and powerful especially because he counts so many influential celebrities among his friends journalist. Brian deer and editor. Richard Horton are still waging their media campaign but ultimately Wakefield's beliefs might. Just be too incendiary and enticing. His story is a testament to the consequences of scientific fraud. And Media Hype. And there's no known cure for backed Thanks for listening to medical mysteries for more information on Andrew Wakefield amongst the many sources we used we found the panic virus the true story behind the vaccine autism controversy. I Seth Manoukian extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of medical mysteries and all other park has originals for free on spotify not only despotic. Fai already have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like medical mysteries for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream medical mysteries on spotify. Just open the APP tap browse and tied medical mysteries in the search bar. And don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see next time. Medical mysteries was created by Max Cutler and his a park estudios original it is executive produced by Max Cutler. Sound design by Anthony Vasic with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Travis Clark. This episode of medical mysteries was written by Amanda Prager with writing assistance by Maggie Admire and stars Molly Brandenburg and Richard Rosner listeners. I can't speak highly enough about the new podcast. Original series supernatural with Ashley Flowers every Wednesday. Take a deep dive into the strange and surreal to find the truth behind some of the world's most bizarre true crime occurrences. I had a chance to listen to a couple of episodes and I absolutely loved it. You definitely want to check it out search for supernatural with Ashley Flowers in the spotify APP and listened free today.

Dr Andrew Wakefield wakefield Wakefield Brian deer Richard Horton Measles Autism United States Publishing Wakefield Wakefield Fund General Medical Council Wakefi researcher spotify Seventeen Wakefield General Medical Council editor Britain GMC Ashley Flowers The Lancet
Case 144: The Muswell Hill Murderer (Part 2)

Casefile True Crime

1:15:42 hr | 6 months ago

Case 144: The Muswell Hill Murderer (Part 2)

"With all the uncertainty in the world feeling safe at home has never been more important. That's why I want to talk to you about simply safe home security then longtime friends of fall and for good reason simply safe makes it easy to finally get comprehensive protection for your home and all you need to do is order online. You can set the system up yourself in under an hour and you'll home will be protected. Twenty four seven with emergency dispatch for break INS fire and more simply safe gives you peace of mind for just fifty cents a day. This means that. No technicians or salespeople. Nate to visit and Disrupt Your House. And you don't need to pay outrageous monthly phase also on a two year contract and when the company's only fans. Us News and World Report named simply safe the best overall home security of two thousand twenty right. Now when you head to SIMPLISAFE DOT COM SLASH CASE FILE. You'll get free shipping and a sixty day risk-free trial that simplisafe dot com slash case file to make sure they know that they'll show sent you from simply safe and all of us he wishing you safety and good health era sites with serious and often distressing incidents. If you feel it anytime you need support please contact. You'll like across the central FA suggested found numbers for confidential support. Play the shy nights for this episode on your APP or now abso- ooh when Dennis Nielsen moved out of his flat at one hundred ninety five. Melrose Avenue in critical. Would he had already taken the lives of twelve victims on Monday. November twenty three nineteen ninety. One He'd been living in his new flat at twenty three Cranley Gardens in mas well hill seven weeks and was eager to put the past behind him and start afresh. That was his thirty sixth birthday and to celebrate he took the day off work and headed out to the palm as his new home was only five miles from his old idress. He continued to frequent many of these usual drinking homes at one thirty PM. Nilsson was drinking in the Golden Lion. Pa Bon dain straight in Soho. When he struck up a conversation with PLO knobs and nineteen year old Undergrad who was studying slavonic and based in European studies. At the University of London pull was supposed to be attending a lecture but had decided to take the afternoon off to bossom books. Nielsen was impressed by pulls intelligence and the two chatted for our Neyla until pull announced that he needed to go to the bookstore. Nielsen accompanied him there and invited pulled back to his flat Dina. Afterwards pull accepted the invitation and they stopped at a nearby supermarket to purchase some chops into -LICA- arriving back at twenty three Cranley Gardens at around five forty five pm. The three storey residence was once a single family home. But had since Spain's split into a multi tenant building it's not didn't leave on saw it instead hiring the services of Laguna Real Estate Agency Ellison cow to manage the property and its tenants in addition to Dennis Nielsen. There were four other tenants. Living in the building the ground floor was divided into two flats of which was occupied by a builder named Jim. Mock and he's bought tended girlfriend Vienna bridges. The other was laced to two young women a dental dental nurse from New Zealand name. Vivian Mixed Day and a youth work from Holland named Monique Van. Ruta the first floor was unoccupied Nelson. Lived on the top floor in a small squalid attic. Space that was accessed via two flights of stairs. It's front door opened to a small grammy hallway that served as a kitchen with a small cabin guests dive and sink to the left as well as a door that led directly to a groppy Baath. Return to the right of the hallway. Would two doors one that I've been done to a living room containing wardrobes to armchairs and to teach us and did not that led to Nielsen's disorganized bedroom. A double bed sat in the middle of the room with a small Sofa to its rod along with television stereo several pump plants and other roads. Dan's H room had sloping. Ceilings AND. Dull Brown carpets. That was simply light on top of the floor instead of fitted into place when Nelson and pull knobs arrived at the Flat Nielsen cooked than DNA and the two sat down to drink and watch television. Kohl cody's mother to let her know he'd be home shortly but he then started feeling sick from old the alcohol and find her back to say he would be spending the night at a friend's place. The two men eventually undressed hopped into Nielsen's bed and started kissing. But they would by tie it and soon fell asleep at two. I am pulled. Woke up feeling nauseated with a throbbing headache when he went to the kitchen poured himself a glass of water and set on the cap for a wall Nielsen. Good up to check on him and they both went back to bed at seeks. Im poll walk again. And went back to the kitchen. Had a mirror above the sink upon catching a glimpse of his reflection pull realized that his face was red and bruised and he's is what bloodshot. He's hands were shaking uncontrollably. He's throat her and two. There was a deep red mark across his neck. When Nelson saw poll he remarked God go full and suggested that he say a doctor he then right down. He's address until poll that he hoped they would see one another again. Poll staggered away from Nielsen's flat and made his way to the University of London for his scheduled classes. One of his chooses noticed that he looked incredibly unwell and immediately booked team an appointment at the University College Hospital around the corner from the campus at the clinic polls hands shook so badly that he knocked over a cup of coffee and was unable to light a cigarette. The doctor gave him a tranquilizer to come. He's nerves and after conducting checkup deemed. That pool symptoms were consistent with having been strangled Although pull knobs realized that Dennis Nilsen must attacked him in he slave and then acted as though nothing had ever happened. He decided not to report the incident to the police to explain the mark that remained visible across his neck for the next three months. He told others that he had been attacked. During a mugging pulse voted Nelson the Golden Lion about a year after the incident but avoided speaking to him in March nineteen eighty two full months after the attack on pole. Knobs Nilsson was drinking at the Salisbury on Saint Martin's Lane London's pre-eminent gave Bob. When he ran into twenty eight year old John haloed whom Nielsen as John Guardsmen? The two had met at another PA a couple of months earlier where John had boasted of being an ex grenadier guardsman and they had shuttered. Iva Drinks for a couple of hours. John had lived a troubled alive at the age of thirty attain kicked out of his family time and spent his adolescence living in group residences where he was constantly in trouble with the police as I not all John had served time in prison for theft and may ends made by working in travelling. Fairgrounds at the Salisbury John Recognized Nelson and to join him for a drink at the BAA. The service was slow which frustrated Nelson. And Hey suggested that guy too. He's flat to drink instead. Join A grade and the pair walked to a liquor store to stock up on alcohol before catching the chew back to twenty three Cranley Gardens. There Nilsson cooked dinner and the two settled into drink and watch television in the living room as midnight approached. John Asked if he could rest his head for a wall no sooner greed and continued watching TV while John. Left to lie down in the bedroom at around one am Nelson went to the bedroom and found John. Lying half naked and to sleep in his bed. He woke him and commented on. Thought you were getting your head down. I didn't know you will moving in Nilsson offered to call John Taxi. The John said he didn't feel like getting up this frustrated Nelson as he didn't find join attractive and no longer wanted him in his flat. He poured himself another glass of Rum and sat on the edge of the bed. Contemplating what to do next eventually. Nilsson retrieved a strap of material from underneath an armchair straddled John's body and todd the material arenas neck remarking. It's about time you went. A furious. Struggle ensued during which Nelson Struck? John's head against the edge of the headrest drawing blood. Joan continued to fought back but soon fell off the bed and lost consciousness. Nielsen taught into the material around John's neck until he was sure he was dead. Nielsen's Dog Blake was balking frantically in the next room so he went to confident her when he returned to the bedroom. A few minutes light he discovered that John was still breathing. Nelson strangled him again then dragged him into the bathroom filled the TUB with water and held John's head down until he was no longer breathing. Nelson left him. There has he changed the shades on his bad and then went to sleep with. Blake code up by his fate the following morning Nielsen. He Jones Buddy in his wardrobe three days Elida. He covered his bathroom flow with garbage bags. Retrieved the body and begin dismembering at to dispose of the organs he cut them into pieces and flushed them down the toilet. This proved to be at Tom. Consuming process so he attempted to speed things up but boiling the flesh and organs into a soup like consistency. That was as yet to flash once the bones of the hands. Fate and ribs were fray of flesh. He brought them apart and placed them in his regular rubbish being to be tossed out with the rest of his household waste. Nielsen packed the biggest banks including the skull arms legs and pelvis into separate garbage bags along with salt and padding and stored them in the TAE chest in the corner of his living room two months slide in. May Nineteen Ninety. Two Nielsen was drinking at a gay bar in Camden cold. The black cap when he noticed a young man drinking a line. The men had several red marks on his face and to Nielsen approached to Oscar about his injuries. Demand introduced himself as twenty one year. Old Call stood up and explained that he had just the skate from an abusive boyfriend. He's facial wounds were carpet burns from the most recent attack and he was drinking to distract himself. No sense smiled and reassured cow that he was still attractive. Despite his injuries Kalle was struck by Nilsson's continous and the two begin chatting bonding either. The shared alien nation. They fell from their families when the black cap closed Nielsen invited. Call back to his flat. He accepted into. They caught a cab holding hands throughout the Rod. Nielsen didn't approve of the route. The driver chose to take them home and became unusually angry retaliating paying with the smallest change possible. Once they arrived at twenty three Cranley Gardens. The two men drank while listening to music at one point. Nielsen insisted Carl listened to his favorite song using headphones and stood behind him as he did so watching intently became affectionate but call told Nielsen. He didn't feel like having sex. College eventually. Had too much to drink and felt ill said I decided to go to bed. Nielsen pointed out that the sleeping bag on his bed had a loose Zepa and warned Carl to be careful not to get caught in a bad now. Elida cow woke up suddenly when he felt a sharp pain and sense of tightness around his neck. Nielsen was behind him pulling on the sleeping bag warning call to stay still thinking he was called in. Zepa and that Nielsen was trying to help him. Out Call struggled to set himself fray but soon lost consciousness when he came to he d- water running and felt incredibly called quote on. You was in the water and he was trying to drown me. He kept pushing me into the water. The third time I came off said no more place no more and he pushed me under again. I just thought I was dying. I thought this man was killing me and always dying. I thought you were drowning. This is what it feels like to die. Felt very relaxed and DOT PAS de. I couldn't find any more assuming that call was now dead Nielsen. Carrie came out of the bath and placed him on the living room floor. He's Doug bleep then started to licking calls vice which alerted Nielsen. To the fact that he was still alive seemingly changing his mind about murdering call he spent the next few hours attempting to revive him and warming him up call eventually regained consciousness but was dazed and disorientated and tied trouble remembering what had happened. He saw his reflection and realized there was a deep red mark around his neck and broken blood vessels all either. He's face and in he's Oh is Nielsen explained that call had been coordinator sleeping bags. Zepa into lost consciousness and that he had splashed water onto Carl's face to wake him up in a state of shock call believed Nielsen. Who spent the morning comforting him when Carl started to feel better? Nielsen walked him to a nearby tube station and gave him his name and address in. Casey wanted to remain in contact. Carl Nineties Way to the Royal Free Hospital in stood roughly three miles from Nilsson's flat and told a doctor there that he'd been caught in Zipper. The doctor was adamant that calls injuries were consistent with having been strangled and concluded that someone may have tried to kill him but cow still in a state of shock was uncertain what to believe around the time of the attack on call Stott Nelson Applaud for another promotion at the job. Santa but was once again denied he wrote a lead to. He's personnel manager saying that he felt victimized and asked what was preventing him from moving up a Lotta Nilsson was subsequently invited to appeal the decision and succeeded after i-it's of service he was promoted to the role of executive office saw on June. Twenty Eighth Nineteen Ninety. Two Nilsson was reassigned to the Kentish town. Jobs sent a branch located approximately three and a half miles from his flat. In Mas Well Hill. He's many Joe was a woman. Nine to Janet Layman and the two formed a close professional relationship that was the happiest of Nielsen's Working Corre- despite days positive changes. He continued to drink heavily and within a couple of months he resumed his old ones one. September Evening Nielsen. Returned to his flat with twenty seven year. Old Graham Alan Graham was a Scottish born heroin addict with a troubled past who had moved to London in Nineteen. Seventy one under the falls SALUHAH employment. Since then he'd spent years squatting in abandoned buildings funding his drug addiction through a mix of government unemployment benefits pain handling and petty theft throughout the late nineteen seventies and early eighties. He spent time in by the Rahab and prison and when released he escalated to rubbing pharmacies. Graham was engaged in a long-running affair with a woman named to Leslie who was the girlfriend of a well-known local criminal and the two had a young son together one not in September nineteen ninety two Graham and to Leslie had a frenzy document. Graham was drunk and demanded that Leslie give him money to buy heroin when she refused he proceeded to punch himself in the face fearful of he's increasingly violent behavior. Leslie locked Graham out of her house telling him to go away and never come back. It's unclear where Graham and Nielsen met. Ohio Graham ended up at Nelson's flat but once they were there Graham requested something to wait. Nielsen didn't have much food in the house except for cotton of eggs so he made Graham Alah John La- when Graham was about three quarters of the way through waiting at he suddenly fell. Asleep will pasta with the lodge pace of the omelette hanging out of his mouth. Nielsen couldn't tell whether Graham was still breathing or not. But he leaned forward and proceeded to strangle him lied a recode if the homeless killed him deny but anyway in going forward. I intended to kill him. An Omelette doesn't leave red marks on a neck. I suppose it must've Bain may the next day. Nielsen filled the bathtub with water and placed grams buddy in sawed it before going to work as usual. He kept the buddy in the TUB. For three days changing the bathwater on occasion on the fourth day he dismembered. Grimes body boiled several of the body. Parts and then flushed the organs and some of the flesh down the toilet. He placed the rest of their remains into black plastic bags and stuffed them into the chest alongside the remains of John. Hallett Graeme's girlfriend. Leslie was used to him disappearing for long periods of time but he always wrote her lettuce during his absence after she filed to hear from him for several months. Leslie continued to hope that Graham was alive but feed that he had actually passed away from an overdose. He was never reported missing on Wednesday December. Twenty Two nineteen ninety. Two Nielsen was drinking in Soho POB. When he met twenty year old Travis who had just been released from prison after serving a six month sentence for jacking the to begin talking and after a few drinks Nilsson invited Treva back to his flat. Trevor accepted and the two went to twenty three Cranley gardens when Nilsson told. Trevor he was welcome to sleep in one of the armchairs. He's living room the next morning. He extended the author and Travis Day for several more days old though he was happy to have a place to stay. The Christmas. Trevor Soon became frustrated with Nielsen. Who continuously bombarded him with left wing political rhetoric. He also noticed an awful ODA that seemed to women eight from the flat but wasn't inclined to search for the source of the smell by Monday December. Twenty seven trevor had stayed at the flat for five days. Nielsen made the mistake you to wait but became irritated when trevor made a rude remark about the taste lighter that not Nielsen. Drunkenly muttered something about needing to consult with the professor about whether or not trevor could stay any longer. Treva wanted bed shortly after woods but awoke at one. Am to find the living room filled with smoke. He ran to the kitchen where he found a Nielsen calmly drinking a glass of water. The smoke was determined to be coming from a pair of jeans on the living room floor. Which Nielsen said was luckily course by Trevor Dropping? A lit cigarette. The fire was extinguished without further incident and Travis stayed for one more not before moving on with Nilsson saying he was welcomed to return any time a few days light on and around the lunch time on Friday December. Thirty one nilsson visited a pub down the street from his flat he returned home at eight. Pm and to knocked on the door of his danced as neighbors. Vivian Mixed I and Monique Van. Rutta to ask if they wanted to watch television with him. Upstate is the women declined as they were in the middle of cooking dinner and could also tell that Nelson was very drunk. He seemed annoyed by their refusal but invited them to join him at. The local POB lighted that not to celebrate. The New Year then went back upstairs at around eleven PM. Nielsen walked to the nearby grain. Man pob where he met a young Japanese chef named Toshimitsu Izawa. The pub closed just after midnight and the two decided to return to Nilsson's flat once they were inside. Nielsen calmly purged Toshimitsu with a necktie. Pooled totally between his outstretched arms at first Toshimitsu thought Nelson was joking. But when Nelson repeated the action again Toshimitsu realized. Nielsen was serious terrified. Toshimitsu cake to Nelson in the growing and fled from the flat running down the stairs and into the night. The dance Dez neighbors. Vivian and monique heard arguing followed by banging and the sand of someone solving. They ventured out saw to see what was going on only to find a highly intoxicated. Nielsen on the stairs. Tasha Metro reported the incident took place but felt it was too much trouble to follow through with the complaint and subsequently withdrew it less than full wakes light on on. Wednesday January twenty six nineteen ninety-three Nelson was walking through London's west end when he started chatting with a twenty year. Old named Stephen Sinclair Stephen who had been born in Scotland and was adopted. Had delivered a hot alive. Throughout his childhood he struggled with severe personality. Problems was afflicted by regular bed wedding and often self harmed at the age of twelve. He was diagnosed with Sarcoma Odor. Epilepsy a disorder that impacts the brain's temporal lobe and impairs individuals awareness to this surroundings. Stephen was subsequently institutionalized and placed into foster care and by the time he was eighteen. He was addicted to win. Fed means contracted Hepatitis Bay. He moved to London where he lived in. Hostels or squatted in derelict houses and spent most of his time loitering around less the square. He was well known to social workers and police in the area and had been imprisoned multiple times although he was generally regarded as a social outcast. Stephen had accumulated many friends on the streets of London and was known to have a sensitive and friendly sawed. Nielsen sympathized with the troubled young man and offered to buy him a meal from McDonald's. Some of Stephen's friends saw them walk off together but didn't intervene in case Stephen was planning to Rub Nielsen which he was nine to do. The to a then stopped at a liquor store before deciding to head to Nilsson's flat that caught the chew back to Mosul Hill. Arriving at twenty three Cranley Gardens had around nine pm. The men drank chatted listened to music and to watch TV together at some point during the evening. Stephen went to the bathroom to inject himself. With what Nelson is. She seemed to be spayed but by the early hours of the morning. He had dozed off. In one of the armchairs Nelson shook Stephen to save he was awake and when there was no response. He went into the kitchen and cut up an old necktie which he taught with some string to fashion league each. Aw Blake followed him back into the living room wagging her tile and Denilson patted her before ordering her into the bedroom he then proceeded to strangle Stephen who slipped into unconsciousness without a struggle when he stopped breathing Nelson said Stephen. That didn't hurt at all. Nothing can touchy now. He later recalled. I remember wishing he could stay in pace like that forever. I had a feeling of easing his bird. And with my strength. I felt relieved that he's troubles. When now Wada nilsen removed to Stevens clothing and carried him to the bathroom where he bathed him in the Tub with Luke warm water and lemon scented dishwashing liquid. He dried him and carried him to the bedroom where he laid him down on the bed and prompt one lodge mirror at the end of the bed and one boy at Saad Nelson undressed and delay naked next to Stevens body covering both of them with talcum powder said that diskin was a similar cala. He laid a tall Ortho. Brian Masters I spoke to him as if he was still alive. Always telling him how long he was to be out of it. All I thought helped beautiful. He looked and how beautiful I looked. He looked sexy but I had no erection. He just looked fabulous in another account. He recalled I wanted to touch and struck him but did not I like naked beside him but only looked at the two bodies in the mirror are just the light there and a great pace came over me. Felt that this was it. The meaning of life death everything. No fear no pain. No Guilt Okuda only caress and funded the image in the mirror. I never looked at him. No sex just the feeling of oneness. The next morning. Nilsen dressed stephen in some of his eye unclaimed clouds place these body in the living room wardrobe and to went to work one way. Kaleida on Thursday February three downstairs tenant Jewell Cock noticed that one of the toilets on the ground floor of twenty three Cranley Gardens was blocked. He attempted to unblock it using an acid solution and putting sticks but to no avail the next morning. Jim's girlfriend fee under bridges bond into Dennis Nilsen and asked if he was having any trouble with the toilet in his flat into Nielsen replied that he wasn't Jim find phoned. The Buildings Estate Agency Ellison Co to notify them the issue and to ask for the number of a plumber at four fifteen pm. Fianna called the plumber. But he wasn't available so she left a message with the details. Nielsen had spent the afternoon of Friday February. Four drinking at the pub to prepare himself for the process of disposing of Stephen Sinclair. In the evening he returned to his flat. Blonde the bathroom floor with garbage bags and to retrieve Stevens Buddy from the wardrobe using copying off. He dismembered the body and to remove the organs employing the same techniques he had used when disposing of John Hal. He boiled various body parts to soften the tissue so that it would be easier to flush down the toilet at this point at had an occurred to Nielsen. That the blocked toilets. He's danced as neighbors were experiencing could be caused by his actions. Halfway through the task he took a break to Walk Blake to a Niba supermarket where he purchased cigarettes and a bottle of Rum. Upon returning home he listened to classical music and drank heavily while the body parts seem it on the stove by midnight. He was too drunk to continue with the disposal so he went to bed with Stevens remains still in the living room and he's head in a pot. The next day set at I February fav Nelson work with a hangover and spent most of the morning. Imbed on benign to him. Plum Mark Welsh arrived at around midday to inspect the from out so at the property. Unable to clear the blockage himself mark determined. It was a jaw before specialist plumbing company Dawn. Rod and technician was booked for the next available appointment on Monday later that afternoon. Nielsen was leaving the House. When he's downstairs neighbor Fiona informed him of the plumbing situation and recommended that he avoid using the toilet in his flat until the IRA technicians visit in two days time only then did it dawn on him that he's flushing of body parts down. The toilet had luckily caused the blockage. He went to the supermarket to purchase cleaning products and day freshness and returned to the flat to finish disposing of Stevens remains. Light that evening. Nelson's longtime friend Martin. Hunter Craig paid him and unexpected visit. Nelson mainly held the door open a fraction and told Martin he couldn't come mean because he was with the VISITA. Martin noticed that Nelson same digitized and that he's vice was ghostly Pale there was also a strange vomit like odor emanating from the flat. At this point bleep noticed. The door was partially open and ran outside and Dan the stairs. Nelson instructed Martin to hold the door but warned him not to going saw and then chased off. He's dog. He returned with Blake shortly after and asked for reassurance that Martin had an entity's flat Martin Denilson that he had a mountainous umed that Nelson had been drinking and didn't want him to go inside because there was some on their whom he was having sex with so he left the property. Nielsen then spent the rest of said. I not watching television the following morning Sunday February six Nelson divided Stevens dismembered body parts and organs into multiple plastic bags and then place two days into large garbage bags which he stored in. He's wardrobe and under an upturned draw in his bathroom he covered the bags in his wardrobe with newspapers stuffed several sticks of deodorant in inside and then locked. The wardrobe does on Monday February seven Nelson went to work as usual but spent the day on edge knowing that the dawn I rod technician was scheduled to visit and he would likely return home to find the police that he's door. He was Kurd and irritable with his colleagues and apologize to one phase behavior explaining that he was under pressure when he arrived at time he was relieved to find that the dawn. I rug technician had never shown up on Tuesday February. I know son went to work again. That evening dawn I rode employee. Mark Katrin attended. The property had approximately six fifteen pm. By which time not had fallen? Nelson joined downstairs tenant Jim Cock outside to watch as mark lowered himself into the main hall to inspect the drains mark discovered the flighting pieces of and Porridge. Lock substance and determined. The blockage must been caused by animal. Remains he asked to Nelson if he had been flushing dog. Food down the toilet to which Nelson responded no instead remarking that the flesh looked lock paces of Kentucky Fried Chicken Mark concluded that something untoward was going on and find his manager. Gary Huila the two men agreed to attend the property the next day. So I could conduct a clearer inspection in lodden. When Nilsen returned to his flat he wrote a letter ought to the building's management company Ellison to complain about the state of the drains. He spent the rest of the evening drinking heavily and at around me not he ventured outside and headed down into the main hall. He proceeded to clear as much of the flesh from the drain is he could throwing the remains over the hedge into the back garden in order to discuss the remainder of the drains content. He decided he would boss Kentucky Fried Chicken in the morning and throw it into the mix downstairs tenants. Jim and Fiona were awake and heard footsteps on the stairs followed by the sounds of someone walking in the back garden and the manhole cover being removed. You'll so heard. The repeated flushing of the toilet located on the landing. Gm armed himself with a Paul and to went out to investigate catching Nilsson as he was returning to his flat he should. Slaves rolled up and a torch in his hand. When Jim asked his neighbor what he was doing Nossa explained that he had gone out sawed to urinate the next morning. Wednesday November nine Nelson left for work at around eight thirty. I am forty five minutes. Elida Don I rod technician Mark Katrin. And His boss. Gerry Huila arrived at twenty three Cranley Gardens. Mark climbed down into the man hall for the second time and was surprised to say that most of the flesh lock substance was gone Viana Bridges. Who was the only tenant at home told? Mike and Gerry About the noises Shea. Jim Heard the night before and how they had caught Nielsen. Snaking around doubt saw in the early hours mark continued to Fisher arena didn't drain until he pulled what appeared to be a human NOCCO along with more pieces of flesh and Byron horrified at the discovery. Fianna immediately called the police. If you think funding yourself stuck indoors into looking to update your jaw article can help transform any space all from the comfort of your home. Article combines the curation of Boutique Furniture Store with the comfort and simplicity of shopping online article. Paces a beautifully crafted from quality materials with a focus on Mid Century. Scandinavian industrial end about hey designs. 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Make sure your business is ready to meet. The demands of delivery COCCIA GET STARTED CHIP STATION DOT com today. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and talking case fall that's ship station. Dot Com then enter off code case. Fall SHIP STATION DOT com. Make Ship Happen at eleven. Am A number of offices led to twenty six year veteran of the police force. Detective Chief Inspector Pay. Jay arrived at twenty three Cranley Gardens. The police conducted further research of the drain and retrieve several more pieces of flesh age. Approximately four inches long and one inch wide along with three small binds with a knuckle h end D. C. J. personally took the remains to charing Cross Hospital for examination but David Bowen a professor of Forensic Medicine at the University of London. Who also worked as a consultant? Pathologist Professor Bowen declared that the small bones into Nakal had from the hand of a human male and did the flesh was human tissue. The flesh also displayed a clear ligature mark leading professor bow want to conclude that the victim had been strangled as Nielsen's Workday drew to an end. He tried to behave normally that he knew an arrest was imminent and he would luckily never return to the office again before he left he wrote a note urging his colleagues not to believe any reports that modern merge claiming he had taken. Zayn Lot in jail. He talked the note inside a drawer. Tided his desk and said a chief goodbye to. He's worked nights. Some noticed he was wearing a blue and white football scarf which was out of character as he typically wore drab doc clothing it would light obey revealed that the scoff had belonged to his last victim. Stephen Sinclair at five forty PM. Nielsen Arrive Time to find three detectives detective chief inspector pay DJ. Detective Inspector Stephen mcoscar and detective constable. Geoffrey bought La Whiting the front door of the building day C. R. J. introduced himself and explained that they were there to investigate the items found in the block to drains Nielsen surprise and asked if the other two detectives were Health Inspectors Day C. O. J. explained that they were all police officers and wanted to ask him some questions. Nielsen led the man upstairs to he's flat and once they were inside. J. revealed that some of the objects in the drain had been identified as human remains. He then asked Nilsson. Where's the rest of the body without hesitation Nielsen calmly replied into plastic bags in the war-drive next door? I'll show you. He led the offices into the living room intended over the case to unlock the wardrobe saying he wanted to tell them everything day. C. R. J. Red Nielsen. He's rods then placed him under arrest on suspicion of murder although they still had no idea who the victim was. They led Nielsen to the police car and as they drive towards. Hornsey police station. One of the offices asked to Nelson with our dealing with one body or two he replied fifteen or sixteen since nineteen seventy eight. I'll tell you everything. It's a relief to get it off my mind. Nielsen initially declined to hire a lawyer and was held in custody while the police conducted a thorough. Search of his flat recovering. The remains of John Howlett and Graham Allen from the TAE chest and Stephen Sinclair from the drawer in the bathroom sued eyes. Light up at ten forty five. Am on Friday February eleven. The police conducted debt first official interview with Nielsen. He admitted to the murders of the three men whose remains were found at twenty three Cranley Gardens and to a further twelve. He's former residence on Melrose Avenue in critical would police token Nelson to the Melrose Avenue. Flat where he showed them the two locations in the regarding and surrounding plant where he had burned the bodies of his other victims. He also confessed to as many as seven other attempted murders. Police had a difficult task ahead of trying to fully authenticate by the victims. Nielsen remembered few of their names and couldn't recall enough specific details about eighteen to vigil to provide an immediate identification as it was nineteen ninety-three DNA. Testing didn't yet exist and say technology was still in its infancy said. The police had to rely on fingerprints dental records and the victims personal items. This meant that I also had no choice but to depend on the assistance of Dennis. Neilson himself Stephen Sinclair was the first to bail identified. At the time of his death. The twenty year old was wanted by police for some minor offenses and he's fingerprints. Were already on file forensic. Investigators found fingerprints on Stevens leather jacket a used syringe and Tobacco Tin Pool of which were founding. Nilsson's flat and tested Dan against the prince on file to confirm and match at five forty five PM on February. Eleven Nielsen was initially charged with Stevens. Murder undiversified their advice from law enforcement. Nielsen retained the services of wrote Moss. A middle aged solicitor who had experienced dealing with low price fall murder cases during death. I mean Nielsen. Took an immediate locking to Moss Moss found Nielsen to be calm and rational and degrade to accept him as a client. The tabloid press had already been tipped off of the grim discovery at twenty three Cranley Gardens by Dawn Arrow Plumbing Mark Katrin and was circling for further information. So they could run a story. Within an hour of the formal charge bang made reporters managed to locate Nielsen's mother Betty in Aberdeenshire Scotland and to requested photographs of her son. Betty obliged on the basis. They would be returned to her but she later found out. The photographs was solved. Falange large sums of money and she never got them back. That evening. Nilsson's friend Martin. Hunter Craig was watching television when a news report revealed that buddy pots had been discovered in the drains of an apartment building in Mosul Hill. The name of the killer was withheld but when the report showed an image of twenty three Cranley Gardens Martin realized that Nielsen. Must be responsible. He was shocked to think that he had been at the property just days earlier by Saturday. February twelve this story was making headlines across England and dive assays. Although the full extent of the murders hadn't yet been reviewed reporters had already stopped the mas well hill property the house of horrors and were referring to the Quila. As the MAS well hill police was still working around the clock to identify the remaining victims and had released very monetary day towels to the media but journalists were working overtime in an attempt to get the best scoop members of the press surrounded the Hornsey police station with some attempting to Riga microphone outside of DC. Ought Jay's first floor window to obtain inside information. A Japanese news crew even position to themselves in a house opposite the station and used highly sophisticated. Seond equipment to try to eavesdrop on police interviews with Nielsen at ten. Am Nelson made his first appearance in the magistrate's Court where the judge ruled that he be remanded in custody for three more days of questioning before for the legal per savings afterwards when he was being escorted out of the courthouse and back to the waiting police car. Nielsen elected to walk out in full view of the press. He later explained that he didn't want to hide away by covering his face like a common criminal. Nelson's mother is depicted in a television interview in which she stated. I just don't understand how this could go on. And nobody knowing anything a main know anything about the last ten years of his life and darkens see what was happening to him. Something must have happened to him because it's not my dentist. That's doing it not the boy. I knew that's doing these things. He's always my son and that's why I want him to know where all concerned about him and digest. Hope he'll get some help to cope with the situation. He's in a police. Continued to question Nilsen with detectives consciously trying to maintain a relaxed atmosphere in order to Cape him talking. Although they were horrified and occasionally physically sick from the day tells he divulged they feed that he would clam up if he felt he was under attack. Nilsen was unusually cooperative offering details about each murder. Descriptions of the techniques used and helping to identify the victims as the Brian Mazdas described in his book. Killing company quite not only did Nelson make no hindrance but he positively swamped the detectives with information faster than they could seek it he bailey ric quiet questioning. He spoke in an almost unbroken autobiographical monologue. As if to purge he's conscience of a burden which he could no longer bear alone yet. There were no irrelevant details. No digression into Personal Life. No please for comfort or undestanding. He admitted that he was astonished. He had no tease for the papal who had died at his hands. It soon became clear to the detectives that the number of people who visited Nelson's flat with the Audience Sedan Far Outweigh. Those who came under attack will would kill. Newson rejected the suggestion that he intentionally sort out victims claiming he only the went out in search of company and the attacks would never planned quote when voluntarily go out to drink? Do not have the intention at that taunt to do these things. I seek company. I and hope everything will bail ride. Nielsen claimed to be relieved that he'd finally bancorp as he would have kept killing otherwise and the detectives were convinced he never would have given himself up of his own accord in a later interview from the television program. Britain's most David Serial Killers Day C. O. J. recode Nelson said if you had an of caught me now that wouldn't have been fifteen it would have been one hundred fifty and I think he might have been right when the full moon interviews were finally complete Nielsen Solicitor Ronald. Moss asked him why he had committed the crimes. Nielsen responded quote. I am hoping you will tell me that. While the police prosecution continued to gather evidence trial Nielsen was housed at Brixton prison in the NFL of London upon his arrival he was required to change into the standard prison issued uniform of brown trousers and blue striped shirt and based on a psychiatrist's recommendation he was placed in the prison's hospital wing for his own safety. Nielsen was only allowed out of his cell to participate in supervised exercise for half an hour each day and it was forbidden from associating with other prisoners. He was labelled a category prisoner which meant he posed the highest threat to police and the public and was moved between cells every couple of days Nelson was also banned from attending the chapel which upset him even though he was an atheist frustrated that the chaplains didn't stand up to the prison governor on his behalf he labeled them. Christian hypocrites who were worse than cockroaches with Nielsen incarcerated. His beloved dog blake was taken in by an animal rescue shelter in South West London to be Ray Hind but within a wake of her arrival. She became ill and passed away. The death left Nelson heartbroken and he later explained to Autho Brian Masters. I am ashamed that her last day should be so painful. She had always given me everything and nothing but may could ever break her heart. She never let me down but in the moment of her greatest crosses I was not there in prison. Nilsson soon became infatuated with a fellow inmate named David Martin. A small at Feminine Career Criminal had spent his whole life in and dad of gyro. Martin was serving Tom. I spray of burglaries which resulted in him. Shooting a police alpha and later escaping from the magistrates court using pins he stored in his long hair. Nielsen and Martin. Barely spent any time together and I only saw each other occasionally in the exercise yard. The nilsen became upset when Martin was relocated to a different prison. A few months light all in an attempt to maintain a semblance of a connection with Martin. Nielsen contacted Martin Solicitor. Ralph high aims to ask if he would consider representing him as a client. James had a reputation for successfully defending notorious clients. So some also saw this as a tactical decision on Nilsson's behalf. He felt that he's initial solicit. Aw Ronald Moss was to help him stand up against the prison regime. That he believed was working to bully him and he had dismissed. Andrey Hide Moss three times. During those periods when Nelson had no legal representation he had unsuccessfully attempted to represent himself. High AIMS AGREED TO TAKE. Nielsen on as a client. But they soon butted heads. Nilsson accused high aims of working too closely with the press yet failing to us as opportunities to tell the public how Poli Nilsson was being traded in prison. Despite their disagreements Haim aims was able to convince Nelson against pleading guilty to all charges as hey believed he could use the defense of diminished responsibility to to mental disorder to pass the time in prison Nelson spent most of his days writing he started working on an autobiographical manuscript todd. History of draining boy and also established a professional relationship with Brian Mazdas. And all the best nine. But he's histories of the British Aristocracy. Mazdas had developed an interest in the extremities of human behavior and to write a letter to Nielsen asking if he would be open to cooperating on a book project on March thirty nine hundred ninety three Nelson wrote to accept master's Masters invitation opening the lead up by saying quote. I passed the burden of my past actions. Onto your shoulders the tube again exchanging letters with Mazda's also visiting Brixton prison twice awake to speak with his subject Nielson didn't haul back providing a comprehensive and in depth that can of his childhood his arm in the Army career problems sexual fantasies relationship pastry and each of the murders in a Noli led to Mazdas Nelson wrote. I have led a strange law. Sipho schoolboy soja chef projectionist policemen clerical officer executive officer drunk sexualised EST male and female Notre Animal Lover Independent Trades Union officer. The Beta champion of social causes. Do Gouda Dr Sector of mode of Victims Grand Vizier and probably laugh. Aw if there is a god he must have a weed. And jumbled sense of priorities job Fonda pays campaign on amateur filmmaker mine of Useless Information Administra- da pen pusher detained prisoner solitary. Rape Killer of the innocent on remorseful reformed character and `Nigma now rapidly becoming a national receptacle into which all the nation will urinate walk to Monster Madman ungodly called and alone. Nilsson told mazdas about one incident in particular that had a profound impact on his life in nineteen sixty seven when he was stationed at Aliments detention center in Yemen. He had been drinking heavily in town entitled a taxi to take back to the base during the drive. He does off in the back seat and delayed a work with the shop pain. In the back of his head he realized he was naked and had been struck over the head and placed into the boot of the car. Nielsen attempted to break free from the vehicle which was still being driven. Thought was unable to open the boot. After short drive the cost stopped and to Nelson decided that he's best chance to skype would be to play dead taxi driver. Got Out into the BOOT and started touching. Nilsson tried to look as limp and lifeless as possible. The driver attempted to lift Nielsen out. At which point Nielsen's hand touched metal and he realized there was a carjack handle close to him he grabbed hold of it and deliver a hard blow to the taxi drivers head immediately knocking him unconscious. Nielsen clogged data. The boot and struck the draw. Twas more in the skull he saw that the car was parked in nauseated. Elated spot amidst the cluster of buildings. So he what. Jackie andled claim and put it back in the boot along with the driver then he quickly put his clothes on and what to the detention center through the darkness. He was reprimanded for being delinquent but never said a word to anyone about his ordeal. Nielsen told Masters that the next morning he was filled with horror over the incident and having not nes- about being tortured raped murdered and mutilated a psychologist delighted determined that Nielsen had fabricated this entire event. If that was the case masters believe at further proved just how powerful Nilsson's fantasies were however if the incident was true. Mazdas has pointed out that it demonstrated has successfully Nilsson was able to compartmentalize a horrific memory while out would lay appearing unaffected. Investigators continued the difficult task of identifying Nilsson's victims other than the human remains found at the muzzle hill flat. There was little physical evidence to go on so they had to rely on. Nielsen's recollections and two missing person reports to join the dots. An operation room was set up and decked out with bulletin boards and blackboards as well as post sized paces of pay dedicated to wage victim on H. Posta investigators listed as many details about the individual as possible including their physical description lost to whereabouts the dight that were lost sane and the Nelson claimed they were murdered to Stephen Sinclair. Police were eventually. I will to identify a total of seven other victims. The twenty old who Nilsson new only as John. The guardsmen was identified during a painstaking process in which police located every man with the name of John in the local area. Using Strip of muscle retrieved from Nielsen's flat. They determined the victim's blood taught and to use this to narrow down the list of unaccounted for John's that matched the description. Nielsen provided finally identifying him as John Hallett Martin Duffy this sixteen year old catering student who Nilsson murdered in his Melrose Avenue flat was identified using the chef's knives that Nielsen had kept which had Martin's name engraved on them. Kenneth Elkin Dan the twenty three year old to arrest to Nielsen had killed just days before he's expected return to Canada was identified when Nelson was shining photograph and recognized the young man chemist splendens strict directory was found amongst Nielsen's belongings and forensic investigators were able to locate a partial fingerprint and match it against Prince recovered from the belongings. Kenneth had left behind in his hotel room. The family of twenty six year old billy Sutherland. Who had reported him missing in nineteen eighty contacted police off to sing news about the murders and wondering whether billy could have been a victim. Nilsen was shown a photograph of Billy and recognized him as one of the men had killed in his Melrose Avenue. Flat human remains were found under the floorboards in Nelson's salt flat and forensic investigators were able to confirm billy's identity from false tape and a piece of skin with one of his tattoos on it also identified was twenty four year old Malcolm Barlow who Nilsson strangled in his Melrose Avenue flat. The diaw that Malcolm was discharged from hospital pull knobs the nineteen year old university student. Who nilsen attempted to strangle in he slave soon after moving into the Cranley Gardens? Flat was identified as the savarth. Aw As was twenty. Six year old Scotsman. Douglas Jewett who had Ford off an attack at Melrose Avenue. On November. Ten Ninety Ninety on May twenty six nineteen ninety-three Nelson's committal hearing commenced in the Old Bailey. The Central Criminal Court of England and to wiles the judge determined the prosecution had enough evidence to put Nelson to trial for the murders of Stephen Sinclair. John Hallett Billy Sutherland Martin. Duffy Kenneth All condition and Malcolm Barlow and for the attempted to motives of poll knobs and Douglas Jewett. The trial was scheduled to commence in October. Nineteen three from the beginning of Nilsson's Tom in custody. He was required to wear the standard-issue prison uniform. This enraged him as he hadn't yet been convicted of a crime. He protested against a walking around his cell naked in response to God's restricted him from leaving he sell entirely which meant he was unable to empty his toilet bucket on August one. When Nilsson's bucket was full to the brim he yelled stained clean and proceeded to throw its contents through the Basel. V Cell and onto the landing. Several gods were hit with the mess and Nielsen was beaten in retaliation and to given fifty six days in solitary confinement. As Nelson's Tom on remand went by. He began to express regret for committing the crimes in a letter. He sent two detectives thanking them for their professionalism. One on raveling the case Nelson Road. My remorse is of day and personal. Kind which will late away in saw may for the rest of my life. I am a tragically. Private person not given to public tease. The enormity of Bet's access left me in permanent shock. The evil was short. Leave and it cannot leave or great for long inside the conscience have slain my own dragon as surely as the press and the letter of the law will slay. May to bay continued next.

Dennis Nielsen John Recognized Nelson Nielsen Cranley Gardens Nielsen Lotta Nilsson Nielsen Flat Nielsen Dennis Nilsen Nelson Nilsson Saint Martin Blake London University of London Jim Cock C. R. J. Red Nielsen Stevens Vivian Dan
Coronavirus human challenge trials to begin in UK

PRI's The World

49:29 min | Last month

Coronavirus human challenge trials to begin in UK

"Support for the world comes from hint water fruit infused water with no calories and no sweeteners hit water is available in over twenty-five flavors including watermelon and blackberry in stores or delivered directly to your door from drink hint dot. com. I WanNa tell you about another show. You might enjoy Ted ex shorts hosted by Tosa. Leoni. Tech shorts will immerse you in surprising knowledge fresh perspectives and moving stories from some of the most compelling tech's community talks out there. Start each day with short eye-opening ideas on Apple podcasts spotify or wherever you listen. A mysterious syndrome affecting diplomats, a weapon something else this man has theories, but he can't sale. We certainly hope that the department is dated and understand that we believe that it is in their best interest for our report to be made available to the US public. Also today beware of Russian election meddling but not just in the US. These are hackers who are responsible for just an incredible rampage across the Internet over the last five years I'm Marco Werman will also here on the show how some Latino voters are firming up their presence across the country including in battleground. North Carolina we're not going anywhere we are North Carolinians and we are carving out. Space for ourselves. Those stores are more today you're on the world. I'm Marco Werman your with the world. Glad you could be with us today. Vaccine Trials are happening all over the globe today. The UK government announced funding for phase. One of something called a human challenge trial for a corona virus vaccine. The process will require young healthy volunteers to be infected with the virus in an effort to speed up vaccine testing a company called H Vivo and Imperial College London. Have the contract is set up the first part of that process. Here's more from the world's caroline dealer the idea itself sounds wild intentionally infect people with the very virus returning our lives upside down to avoid. People hear about these trials. Many people's immediate reaction is, how could it be ethical but Oxford bioethicist deb Yom row gic says, it's possible if certain conditions are met one of those conditions is that the expected benefits of the research outweigh the risks. In this case, how many infections could we prevent if we developed a vaccine sooner? For example, in a typical clinical trial thousands of people are injected with a test vaccine and sent out into the world to see if they still get infected naturally that's happening now with several corona virus vaccine candidates, but Andrew Catchpole. The, chief scientific officer at H., Vivo the company launching this human challenge trial says that takes time normal traditional trials involve many thousands of subjects take many many months to complete in human challenge trials, which HP VO has been running for decades. A small number of healthy volunteers would be intentionally infected with the coronavirus after getting jabbed with a trial vaccine to see if it works. What happens is because everybody is given the disease, you're able to determine efficacy in a matter of weeks. These types of tiles have been used for centuries and in the recent past have. Sped up the development of typhoid and cholera vaccines. The agreement announced by the UK government today is just for the first step of this contract to manufacture and test Raina the virus to use in trials it still has to be approved by regulators and an ethics panel. If it is between thirty and ninety volunteers could start being injected with just the test virus, not yet any vaccine as soon as the beginning of next year so far nearly three thousand people in the UK have signed up to volunteer for a challenge trial. One of them is allaster frazier ORCA. White indefinite convinced. The Human Josh all has essential to advising Ovalles, scenes, population way more quickly lift on them on opinion the risk is small enough to travel participants that we need to take that risk frazier ORCA put off going to university for a year to work with one day sooner, a nonprofit group advocating for human challenge trials and signing up volunteers. He says the Tom Channel some of the fear of living through a pandemic into something that feels productive grandma custos. My Dodd might catch his out his risk. So kind of on a personal level the. Volunteer volunteers will be paid somewhere around five thousand dollars insurance cover healthcare costs. For any complications they will quarantine in a special nineteen dead unit at the Royal Free, hospital in London for an expected two weeks after virus exposure. Again, Andrew Catch Paul from h Vivo. A first priority was doing these studies is the safety of the volunteers. So for that reason, we go very strict criteria about those who. Will be eligible to participate. Volunteers must be between eighteen and thirty healthy with no pre existing conditions. But there's a more controversial criteria that scientists are wrestling with right now whether to exclude volunteers of color because there is data suggest that there is a potential for increased risk. The UN says Kobe nineteen is disproportionately affecting racial and ethnic minorities around the globe including in Brazil the UK and the US. K. Government figures, black men in England and Wales are more than two and a half times more likely to die of cope in nineteen than white men. Some of that is explained by socioeconomic status in pre existing conditions. But Dhillon David Kumar, a physician and professor at University College London says it's more than that. They're also other underlying causes racism discrimination for example, being an underlying cause which are not easy to count foreign. Announces such as this Dave Qamar said, he's the health impacts of racism and xenophobia. He says, well, it's important to note that raises a social construct, not biological. The effects of racism in tells in ways that can be hard to identify. So you can't hold constant the discrimination someone's face throughout their life. You can't hold constant the environment someone grownup in the levels of air pollution kinds of housing that they've lifting throughout their life. So. There are differences in outcomes amongst racial groups. David Kamar isn't familiar with this specifics of this study proposal, but he says he can understand the reason for picking volunteers who are at the lowest possible risk for getting really sick. Charles cordray chief officer for the Caribbean and African Health Network sees it differently. It's really disappointing people of Color. In clinical trials that's partly due to legacy of racist medical experiments. By white doctors and kwok-wah dray says the idea of excluding people of color from this trial would add to the distrust mistrust and the lack of trust has come about as a result of decades of sometimes how we need to respond so quickly but what is meant is that there's a whole section of people. Fair much. whose voices are not being head HBO is still making a decision about whether and how to include people of Color in the first phase of this trial when they're testing out the safest way to infect people with the actual virus the company hasn't designed protocols yet for the actual vaccine-testing in hopes quickly follows the volunteer criteria for this stage of the study will be finalized and handed over to UK regulators and an ethics panel by mid-november. For the world I'm Caroline Bieler. Okay. Even if in theory, the world gets ineffective vaccine for covid nineteen, a lot more is needed to get worldwide distribution. It'll be a complicated journey. No doubt to get ready UNICEF the UN children's agency recently said, it was stockpiling more than half a billion. Syringes? Benjamin Schreiber knows all about the coming challenges. He's deputy chief for Unisex Global Immunization Program and joins us from new. York. It's a big task and it's a big task for the whole world and especially those health workers and all the people that going to do the work in the end. Benjamin. Walk me through. If you were the journey of a vaccine from the point of manufacture to deployment in someone's arm, obviously you need syringes but what else is required? When a vaccine is money factored at global level, it needs to be shipped or in most of the time, it would be flown to the countries. It will land at the national level at the national warehouse way our national cold rooms assist with a vaccine Stewart. The sensitive products need to be stored in cold environments. Normally, vaccines need to to eight degrees so like your fridge at home. This maxine than needs to be going out to the target populations across the whole country. So we are developing with or supporting the governments to develop deployment clowns of how the vaccine goes from the national level towards the people that needed and these people may sit in urban slums. The May sit in remote rural areas were even areas that are conflict-affected. So we have to really plan very carefully your hat. Benjamin you spoke about our fridge at home. We can't obviously assume that refrigeration is widely available around the globe to keep these vaccines fresh. What does it mean? That billions of people live in places without temperature controlled storage? Yes. That is the case, but we've been able to procure an. Forty thousand vaccine fridges many of them actually solar because many of these remote areas that is no electricity or concentrated. Even, these captain keep on running and keep the maxine code for several days, and that means we now can have vaccinations in many more places than we were able to have before. Your organization UNICEF, Benjamin is the largest single purchaser of vaccines in the world. So I'm guessing you know a fair amount about supply chains. Do you worry about any shortages of any resources that you need? We wouldn't be married and then it would be too easy. I mean meet we are worried about So the lead time of introducing this vaccine is extremely short. We normally introduced acceding Planning Twelve to twenty four months a hatch, which countries we now talking about introducing a vaccine with several months in terms of lead time. So we already doubling down efforts and making sure that began introduced that this good news that behalf worked with governments over the last decade to introduce new vaccines in many countries. So there's a lot of expertise actually at the country level that we can build up on, but this is a vaccine that is not going to shoot when it's going to heads for a person after populations so we need to tweak the approach. And so my main concern is we need to be extremely flexible and adaptive to new circumstances and problems arise and need to problem solve concentrate. So there's coordination among countries but does that mean that the supply chain won't be interrupted or broken in some way? There's a quote pandemic many countries and kind of locked down flights. We've been able to continue to apply routine what existing scenes to all countries they need them and worked around by working closely with the distribution and suppliers end or to the vacation industry to secure flights etcetera. So there's ways we can work around it, but it needs to be managed very carefully. You've coordinated mass immunizations in the past but we're talking now about a pandemic that requires a worldwide vaccination campaign. What do you see as the top challenge here? Aside from just the sheer scale of the operation they operation needs extreme coordination across all governments, all partners. But there's also additional complexity given the questions people raise about an the kind of distant misinformation that circulating around the vaccines. So I think we have to not only manage the supply side, but also the demand side at country level. Benjamin Schreiber is deputy chief for UNICEF's Global Immunization Program. Benjamin thank you for your time. Thanks a lot. As the corona virus continues to spread international travel is basically a no, go the carriers thrills Oh no virus can take that away. The beauty of wildlife photography is it's pulling you into a very different will over you've got an opportunity to see the world in in such a different way. Tim Littlewood is one of this year's judges for the wildlife photographer of the year award London's natural. History, museum runs a competition the judges sort through nearly fifty thousand images submitted by professionals and amateurs. The winner was announced by the Duchess of Cambridge Kate, Middleton Katcha that I could announced this year's wildlife photographer of. Is. Sergei Gorshkov, his image, the embraced the embraced is a wonderful image of a Siberian tiger sitting up and hugging a large tree in Russia's Far East. The bark is well worn contest judge Tim littlewoods says that shows that this is not the first time. The big cat cozied up to this particular trunk. He's like rubbing post for the Tigris a bit like domestic cadillacs rub against a tree or a branch scent marking. It's a picture that's almost unreal. Looks kind of like a painting little would describes a winning photo as having an autumnal look with light peeking through the league onto the Tigers orange striped coat and the Tigris is kind of. An ecstasy she's got her eyes closed faces into the sun. It's very captivating. It is a cat in utter bliss. Other finalists include a monkey meditating and Southeast Asia a translucent frog grasping onto a branch in the Andes and playful palaces cats bouncing through field. In Tibet a scene took six years to capture judge Littlewood said, the photos don't just highlight natural beauty. They also remind us of the need to preserve natural environments we need to do something before we start losing all of these species and we're losing them at such an enormous right. You can see the winning images and also enter next year's competition at London's natural history. Museums website. You're listening to the world. Support for this podcast comes from Port of entry. The podcast explores interesting and unexpected ways. The US and Mexico are inextricably linked despite the wall running between us. You don't have to live anywhere near the border appreciate these cross-border stories about human connection from ktbs. NPR, ex port of entry is available now on apple podcasts or wherever you listen get details at. Port of entry pod DOT, Org I'm Marco Werman your with the world in Nigeria's largest city legos reports are coming in of security forces opening fire tonight on unarmed demonstrators the demonstrators had been protesting in fact against police brutality according to several eyewitnesses the live rounds hit several people details on casualties have not yet been confirmed. This evening's violence erupted after the Lagos State government imposed a twenty four hour curfew in response to the growing protests against police violence. Yesterday protesters blocked a major expressway in Lagos and also targeted the main airport shutting down terminals Judeh John was a lawyer and journalist and Lagos earlier today I asked him how people in the city were responding to the curfew. People in a frenzy panicked people are constant appointments people are running home. Lagos notorious for heavy traffic transportation is a nightmare and so I've just feel so sad for people who would have to be rushing home and David cuts under ruled. It's well before many people usually get home from work. I've even seen suggestions on twitter cautioning those not close to home to head to a hotel. Why did authorities take such action what prompted this Nigeria's security systems if the mess that incentivized protect powerful on the privilege against citizens The government in this atmosphere of chaos. Must have made strategy conclusion that the easiest thing to do is keep everybody hope. Just a sense of will not have the capacity to contain spiraling protests on. We should do the easiest thing for us to do to keep this on their ups. The problem with that is that citizens expect that the government should be taken action to protect constitional protests citizenship but the punished. For the government's inability to secure life on property, which ironically is the point of the protests in the first place. So while I can send me a tree she, it's the thinking that led to this. It said Selena against them because even though you can see, yes, people understand that we care on this trees the government was trying to get control over fluid situation. Students expected mental thought of a better way to do this that doesn't infringe on the rights of peaceful protests on the rights of freedom of assembly. So today when you say the police system in Nigeria a mess, a lot of Nigerians point I two SARS a special anti robbery squad, the unit that actually prompted all these protests and now the demands of the protesters have grown beyond just a narrow focus on the SARS unit. What are protesters calling for? Now any serious blended engaged government should have anticipated that the conditions that covid nineteen hundred presented would stimulate already restless citizenry to get on the streets in Nigeria. Young people overwhelmingly. Tired, of bad, governance, they're tired of what appears to be disengaged disconnected. Government, that's the crux of the matter people just feel like the government's a disconnected from the demand the desires of every major ends what people are really tired of is Goldman that doesn't care when citizens die. That's the problem and onto citizens believe that the government is not just going to react to the protests at the time. The government understands that this is about disappointment in the system. The demands will keep on multiplying. I know the young people of Lagos especially incensed and have been on the streets. They've got a lot of popular support from celebrities who won't let the government off the hook like the massively popular musician Burnham boy. I'm actually spoke to the BBC jeff to understand the Nigeria is the biggest black nation in the face of the. If Nigeria kind over common I do reach its full potential and the youths come. Make sure that happens by rising up for their rights like they're doing this. then. That's just. Tell me victor drifted world. Judeh is a federal government in a Buddha mistake government in Lagos getting the message and are they going to provide some satisfaction to the protesters? They don't yet understand the depth of the discontent. Because it is surely. Those who voted for this president of which I have one have been saying his being profound disappointment. Now. That's undestanding has eluded the authorities. And even now they zero them that young people will leave. This treats ACTI- shots while they've never witnessed protests like this as far as doing history but then give the global diaspora of Nigerian protesting Texas protest in DC participant New York protested Montreal Professional Tarot Protesting Pretoria was a protest this week in. Trafalgar. Square London. The rather Donna Humbly, confront the disconnect between their assessments on the assessment of the major on public. All they're trying do is to end the protests. Unfortunately for them that has never worked. chewed Edgy don't Liz in Lagos where he's a lawyer and media entrepreneur. Thank you very much for giving us the latest day. Thank you. Third. Sounds for a moment of bliss. It's been a while since many of us felt blissed out. I'm guessing it's been. Oh, say since the middle of March. So a tribute to a man who recently left us brought blessed thousands probably more like millions of people. Jose Padilla DJ, who for years work the turntables on the Spanish resort island of a Beatha creating what's been called the Bali Rx sound as in the Valley Aric islands off Spain's Mediterranean coast chill out music or the ABC sound whatever you call it the music drew parties from all over the globe to the island where since one, thousand, nine, hundred, one, Dj Jose Padeas produce his soundtrack every evening at sunset at a bar called cafe, del Mar.. In a recent documentary, Padilla told the story of coming to Beata for the first time he was done with his native Barcelona for personal reasons and was ready to get on the first ferry out of the city he ended up on the boat to a Beatha and instantly met some friendly people who showed them around the island and it took me out to a West Branca's to see. The saw some coming up on the I. I like it. That was nineteen, seventy six he worked as a waiter and sold mix tapes on the sidewalk until it became one of the island's main attractions judging from the Eulogies for Jose Padilla in the Youtube comments section. It's clear. He had an impact on people everywhere. They went to Beatha for a dose of what Padilla was prescribing bliss and chill. One of de-deputy is most requested tracks remixed many many times that's audio's. Goodbye yesterday, we say goodbye to DJ Jose Padilla died on Sunday of cancer at the age of sixty four. Before we take a break I've got an important question for you. Have you heard our show produced exclusively for smart speakers. It's called the number in the news. Here's the deal one number one story everyday. Yup Weekends to you can find out more at the world dot Org Slash Smart Speaker. You're listening to the world. In the Dominican Republic, this artist is exploring her identity and gender and is getting monster praise for that. Even if it might not sound that way in the Dr, they call you that if you're good at something if it sports or business or music or whatever they call you why your your monster you know being amongst various a, it's like a good thing, a fresh creative vision from the Caribbean that still ahead here on the world. I'm Marco Werman your with the world from pr ex an GBH. It's an international mystery that seems ripped from a Cold War spy novel US diplomats coming down with mysterious brain elements while posted overseas in two thousand eighteen. This was a reality for dozens of diplomats and spies posted at the US embassy in Cuba memory loss blurred vision mysterious sounds the condition was given name Havana Syndrome today handful of diplomatic workers stationed in China and Russia are coming forward with. Their own similar experiences Dr David Roman is a Stanford professor working with the National Academy of Sciences to investigate Havana Syndrome and he joins us from Stanford Kanye. First of all, what is Savannah Syndrome? What are the health problems people have been experiencing it very perplexing and very unusual set of symptoms and signs. It afflicted people that were first recognized as having served in Vanna with the US mission there. But it seems as though these cases that have similarities to others. From US diplomats who have elsewhere in the world as well. I called the vector for the syndrome an attack is that fair? Do you think it's a complicated story and and it is still not entirely clear exactly. What has happened to all of these people we have to national academies were asked by the US State Department to look at these cases with a fresh objective, independent assessment and approach, and that is what we did. The National Academy. Setup. Committee it people myself included. The committee had a great deal of expertise in college, some of the best neurology experts in the country, as well as electrical engineers and environmental health scientists toxicologists. And what we were asked to do was to look at these cases try to understand them better from a clinical point of view. Then look at a variety of possible mechanisms that would explain the cases, and finally we were asked to comment upon how the US government might address similar events like these. Should they occur again or continue into the future and that's what we did. We we completed all of these efforts. We wrote up a report that was submitted back to the State Department in early August. And then waited to hear that they were ready for it to be released. And we have yet to hear a word from them. So another report you worked on his not been made public you haven't heard back from the State Department, but can you tell us what you concluded I wish I could and the answer is no, I cannot. But I just I, do WanNa say our findings are important not just for the patients but the findings are important for the State Department itself because providing greater clarity and an objective assessment of what we think may have happened. Should serve their interests in revealing the challenges that they faced and the challenges that they are going to face should similar cases occur again. So Dr Roman, you submitted the report to the State Department and you haven't gotten reply yet from them. What do you think that is we really don't know I mean the findings are complicated. It's not a black and white story in the end and we know that. Has has struggled to make good by their employees and try to sort this out so that they can not only improved the outcome for the people who have been affected, but also do what they can to prevent further cases from occurring. There's been criticism as you know, of the trump administration by some of the Foreign Service officers affected by this syndrome the criticism that the White House hasn't done enough to stop future tax but if it's hard to know what the source is, is there anything that can be done although I don't think that we any tastes have a clear answer. We do have some ideas we did arrive at a most plausible mechanism so that certainly should be addressed in terms of prevention. This mechanism does suggest approaches that would expected to minimize the likelihood of for the case. So a couple of news outlets reported on similar cases in Russia and China. Does that surprise you to hear that there have been similar cases outside of Cuban? Does it help to confirm any of your conclusions? Personally I am not surprised I'm not surprised in part because. Without a clear explanation for what happened, we can't say that these cases should have stopped occurring. And we are quite concerned as well about the possibilities of what might be the causes at play here. Don't do. There's speculation that all of these cases that have been reported it's an example of mass psychosis is that plausible while plausible I would not want to let you believe that that is necessarily the answer again, probably part of your findings in the report that has not been made public that's exactly true I. think that when the public and read our report, they will have greater. Insight and there will be greater clarity about what exactly happened here. Are you going to pressure the State Department to get them to release your report? We are trying our best and that's in part why I'm speaking to you right now is because we certainly hope that the State Department is listening and understands that we believe that it is in their best interest for our report to be made available to the US public and to all who have vested interest in this incredibly important problem. Dr David Relevant a professor at Stanford and Chairman of the Committee at the National Academies of Sciences Investigating Vanna. Syndrome thank you very much Dr Roman. Less welcome. With just fourteen days to the general election it makes sense that the incumbent would want to highlight a last-minute foreign policy success. President Donald Trump appeared to do just that on Monday with an announcement about Sudan from. Nairobi. The world's Halima Conde brings us that story Sudanese engineer of the Halil has been glued to the news for days with CNN on his television facebook on his laptop and twitter on his phone. have been rumors rumors in rumors every day. So. I slept like Florian yesterday waking for the tweet the tweet finally came yesterday from President. Donald. Trump's official. He announced plans to remove Sudan from the US state sponsors of terrorism list after more than twenty years this is a big deal for forty nine year old Khalil. He lives in Ethiopia now, but he was born and raised in Sudan's capital heart tomb great news with my generation of people who are getting into fifty and we lost almost ears life thirty years of his life. He says living under the regime of former dictator Omar Al-Bashir. was ousted from power in Sudan last year. But his administration gutted the country's economy and according to the United States provided shelter and support for al Qaeda terrorists. Years of punishing US sanctions have helped cut off soon from the international banking system was always a challenge to open a bank of every day I go to. It was a serious challenge to just have a bank account. Lille saw the sanctions as punishment aimed at ordinary Sudanese. Of, US administrations have discussed removing Sudan from the terrorism list over the years that talk ramped up in the past year following the ouster of Bashir, who's in jail and hard to. The current. Sudanese government is now led by civilians and military leaders they prioritized removing Sudan from the terror list says Jihad Masha. Moon. He's a Sudanese political analyst based in the UK. Or did they establish government all their programs focused on removing sedan. The. Hind. The scenes negotiations between the US and Sudan continued this year but removal has hinged on some outstanding issues in particular payments to victims of the nineteen, ninety eight terrorist attacks on US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Air The bombing of the US embassy thinking. And the US. Call letters ship. There's going to be the reparations be paid for that that there's been a big debate about how much Sudan should actually shell out in the deal negotiated with the US Sudan will pay more than three hundred, million dollars to victims. That's only a fraction of the total decided by the courts, but it's still a lot of money for a struggling economy with massive debt Halil. The engineer was in Sudan, last week people, these people are suffering. From many things no bread. No few will Q. is everywhere. That's one reason why there's been so much international pressure to remove Sudan from the US Tara listing but Jihad Russia moon says things have become even more complicated in recent months took a or particularly interesting turn. When trump's, administration? suggested that Sudan normalize relations with Israel. Now, it's a politically sensitive issue in sedan says Masha Moon not everyone in the current Sudanese government supports the idea of establishing diplomatic relations with Israel and the same goes for the Sudanese public president. Trump did not mention Israel in his announcement on twitter and for now, excitement about the prospect of Sudan being taken off the terrorism list is running high last night. Sudan's Prime Minister of the UC talked about it as a major achievement one. Shabas Sudani. Because an jazz. William Stack. For Honda this would be a huge opportunity domestically but trump's twitter declaration is not the end of the story. The US Congress still needs to review and approve the president's decision and that could take several months for the world I'm Halima Condie in Nairobi. The US Justice Department is charged six Russian intelligence officers in connection with major worldwide cyber attacks including hacking elections in France assistant attorney. General. For National Security, John Moore's made the announcement yesterday he said the men charged stand accused of conducting the most disruptive and destructive series of computer attacks ever attributed to a single group. Andy Greenberg joins me. Now he's the author of sand, worm new era of cyber war in the hunt for the Kremlin's most dangerous hackers Andy first of all, what do we know about the people being charged? We know that the are six Russian men and they are part of Russia's military intelligence agency called the Gru the G. Are you is this guy very mysterious and secretive intelligence agency. There have been only a few defectors from it in its entire history and usually they're kills. So the actual sort of hierarchy and guys work, we only know bits and pieces of it but I think the more important thing about them is that these are hackers who are responsible for an incredible rampage across the Internet over the last five years from causing blackouts in Ukraine, to releasing this piece of malware called not petiot which was the worst cyberattack in history. Give us some more specifics on the attack on Ukraine's power grid. What happened there. In December of two, thousand fifteen just before Christmas. Sand worm attacked a collection of western Ukrainian Electric Utilities. They took over the mouse movements of the operators in a control room of these facilities and locked them out of the computer and these poor operators in this western Ukrainian Electric Utility were forced to watch as their own mouse clicked through circuit breakers and turned off the power to a quarter million Ukrainian civilians they even bombarded. It's with fake phone calls just to kind of add another layer of chaos it was a truly leave unique end brutal kind of cyber attack. So you mentioned not patio, the patio attack officials are saying that perhaps the most damaging cyber attack ever detected you agree with that. I definitely do and I think it was an under reported attack at the time not that was pushed out to thousands of networks in Ukraine and around the world, and it spread incredibly vigilantly ticking over entire computer networks in seconds and essentially destroying all of the computers and this took down. Just hundreds of companies inside of Ukraine but also it did hundreds of millions of dollars of damage to companies like Merck, the new, Jersey pharmaceutical firm Fedex, and Maersk the world's largest shipping firm. Each one of these companies suffer damages unlike we usually for any cyberattack when you add them all up, the White House estimated that not that your cost at least ten billion dollars. Well, if this indictment sounds familiar members of Russia's GRU were previously charged for trying to interfere in the two thousand sixteen US presidential election notably in this announcement, Andy, no one's being charged for trying to interfere in the US election does that surprise you? It does slightly in the sense that the timing of it seems like it should be about trying to preempt or prevent an attack on the twenty twenty election but actually every part of our response to the year you both in the Obama Administration end in the trump administration has been so retroactive has taken years to coalesce sometimes even just a simple statement holding Russia accountable has taken as long as eight or nine months after that not petiot attack for instance, governments around the world have to take deterrence of cyberattacks, sins, responding to them, holding the hackers accountable more seriously and act faster. What has the US done in recent years in terms of cyber defence like how vulnerable is America's cybersecurity infrastructure right now, two weeks before the general election. Our government has done a lot to try to secure. It's self especially into secure American critical infrastructure, but we remain vulnerable because we have complex society. We've seen a warning from Microsoft just in the past weeks. In fact that another GRU units has been targeting, for instance, political consultancies and other election-related organizations and maybe trying to do a kind of hack and leak operation of. The kind that they did against the Democratic National Committee and the Clinton Campaign in two thousand sixteen. So those are soft targets. They're not something that the NSA or the Department of Homeland Security can secure themselves. So it's very difficult to kind of put an umbrella of protection over all these different targets. What do you think is the Kremlin's motivation in all of these attacks Well. The story of Sanborn begins in Ukraine and Russia is, of course, war in Ukraine. Russia physically invaded Ukraine and the cyber war that Russia has waged. Has contributed to that has helped create the sense that Ukraine is a country at war that it's these stabilized. That is not a place to put your foreign investment for instance, and then in other cases the attack on the Olympics for instance that seems like kind of pure pettiness Russia was banned from those for doping and retaliated by trying to break the technological backbone of the event almost as if to say if we can't enjoy these Olympics and no one will it seems like it could just be that simple. You know for four years, we've heard the accusation Russian hacking. So many times that I wonder if it starts to lose its meaning, not to mention the the already well-worn trope of the Russians as the enemy and deep knowledge and expertise, and all of this, what do you think is at stake with Russian hacking operations just generally what does Russia's see its game with all of these influence operations? I do think it's unfortunate that Russian hacking has become this kind of politicized issue but if you excise all those political narratives and just look at what Russia has done I do think that they objectively have done the most disruptive and destructive cyberattacks that we've ever seen. So I do think that we have to stay vigilant. We have to hold the Kremlin accountable for the attacks that it has done and we have to try to secure ourselves against future ones. Andy Greenberg is a senior writer at wired. His book is Sand Worm, a new era of cyber war on the hunt for the Kremlin's most dangerous hackers and a good to have you with us again. Thank you. Thank you. Marco. Two weeks now to election day and campaigns are urgently trying to get out the vote but the push to get more Latinos registered to vote that's been going on for decades. Go to the month one let's get open for water not but I'm east actor. Back in the nineteen eighties telling people, the vote gives us the voice. We need thirty years later Latinos are the second largest ethnic voting block in the US writer. Michelle. Garcia has looked into this and joins me from new. York. City. So you've pointed out that Latinos are still building a legacy of their own when it comes to the vote wh- what do you mean by? Right? So remember the photo of the Congressional Representatives Ramazan all dressed in white that was to mark the passage of the nineteenth amendment that gave white women the right to vote a century ago this year. Black voters understood within the context of their long civil rights struggle and efforts to get to the ballot box many of which also benefited Latinos but there's little context for letting. Oh voters most people are not taught that Latinos to had to face literacy tests poll taxes. This context is important for understanding that when Latinos turn out to the polls, it presents the overcoming of decades of suppression and Neglect Michelle. So much of the narrative is about how a candidate reaches the Latino. Voters or as they say the Latino. Vote, what should we be paying attention to instead I spoke with Francis Nick Ron McNair whose an associate professor at Columbia University and she told me that let the context often working in coalition for example Puerto. Ricans working with African Americans in New York and Chicago. She said that Latinos have contributed to the political history of this country with movements around Labor Gender and immigration to see let the voters and the multiple movements that Latinos have. Re Frames, the voting story it, and it becomes a constellation of stories and I think that's very frightening for some people particularly those the benefit from the current arrangements of power because if you had multiple stories and you have multiple perspectives, then you'd have to be a totally different relationship between groups. That's Francis Negron speaking with my guest Michelle Garcia. So what we've seen how the political system has ignored Latinos, which is partly why they face constant suppression at the polls. Yet candidates are always seeking their vote at some point in their campaigns. What needs to change here I spoke with Irene Gaudiness from the North Carolina Group NC we are no longer that transient community that. People thought we were GONNA be we're not going anywhere. We are North Carolinians and we are carving out. Space for ourselves in North Carolina politics and in the landscape in general because. We have long been ignored have long been taken for granted and with our organizations were saying not anymore when I as well he knows if she drew inspiration from SESA, Chavez's nineteen sixties farm worker movement in California she said, no, she's the daughter of Mexican farm workers in North Carolina but she pointed instead to the inspiration she finds in current movements in Mexico and to the black civil rights movement in her State to your question about what needs to. Change all of this is critically important to understanding and situating Latinos in a context what Latino voters mean in the long history of this country's struggle towards voting rights. So Michelle the the picture. Then I guess needs to just be wider and more nuanced of who the Latino voters are absolutely, and when we look at the current election through that more nuanced story realized that history's being made right now writer and journalist Michelle Garcia Michelle. Thanks very much. Thank you. In the Dominican Republic Musician Rita Indiana as a household name but the pressure of fame and same sex relationship made her leave home for Puerto Rico where she lives today Rita Indiana says she can be more open their it safer to do your own thing to express queer identity. Creativity is at the heart of Indiana's work whether it's through her books or music. She's just released her first album in ten years with this heavy single Gomo drag on. The video for the single Komo rag on it looks like you're the narrator, some dystopia and SCI FI story There's an alien like egg which actually looks like the corona virus and from it flies out these little red is what is going on? What were you imagine? Well the song was written in the video is made before the coronavirus and it was directed by my wife knowing that. Will pretty much all the visual stuff. For the project and we were, we were just being a little whimsical about it and having me come back as a little Monster, which is my one of my alias Lamont. You know having a little fun with me coming back and getting out of the cave. The thing is like with the project like everything took another meaning when the whole coronavirus seeing exploded and the I started saying that the album was a you know a song look for the apocalypse being frivolous about it and funny but it wasn't funny anymore when he January and in February and then march was the lockdown. Certainly feels urgent still though what did you get the nickname most? Well in the Dr, they call you that if you're good at something if it sports or business or music or whatever they call you by your your monster, you know being a monster is like a it's like a good thing and I loved it because I'm a big fan of horror films and heavy metal and I'm like six foot three. Really. Like weird. So it was it was. It was it was a good good name in many way. Won't Talk Yesterday. Your new album is called Mandingo. Times mandingoes pretty controversial word in Caribbean, history goes back to west Africa and the transatlantic slave trade. Can you explain the meaning and see these times as many times? Yama lingers awarded. It's one of the biggest ethnic groups that were brought here during the slave trade and it is ordered means a lot of things in Latin America and there's a lot of places beaches, towns, body does that are called Monday. And most of the words are used to demonize certain minorities People from the LGBTQ community black people people who are considered, which is because they practice religion or not non non-christian, and it's also in the Dominican Republic and means like. Getting beat up Monday when they beat you up in a group. So it wasn't worth that in a way spoke about these times. Many aspects of the times we're living and that's where it comes from. Dominican musician Rita Indiana you can check out the video to Komo wounded I gone we posted it on twitter where at the world coming to you from an and Bill Harris Studio Gbh in Boston I'm Marco Werman we'll see you back here tomorrow.

United States government Russia Marco Werman twitter UK US State Department Sudan London Caribbean Lagos Nigeria Benjamin Schreiber president North Carolina Michelle Garcia Michelle Andrew Catchpole professor President Donald Trump
Extremely High: Sky high science

The Naked Scientists

59:54 min | 1 year ago

Extremely High: Sky high science

"But have you loud and clear tonight low broken signed a letter to say physics medicine electrical face time drain so i was thinking about this week we all rounding off the elements of extreme show we've been extremely cold extremely deep extremely fast on extremely curious now it's time for some extremely high science plus sniffing out me said on mars and scientists have been making sweet music with proteins but why i'm out of murphy i'm katie hyler on this is the naked scientists the naked scientists postcard is powered by uk fausto total uk now you've probably had a remote controls call but what about remote controlled stem cell a team at the university of them have just launched a project these magnetic nanoparticles that can be glued onto receptors on the surface of cells i'm used to control that those cells go in the body do alicia hodge who's leading the initiative presented the work at a conference in cambridge this week by using magnetic fields democratized cells could be guided to where they're needed on the magnetic field post to make the cells transform into new cells wipes or secrete growth and repair factors chris turned up more so i'm interested in cell therapy's how we use cells to treat patients and and cure disease and the problem we have is how to control cells how do we actually make sales do what we want when we put them in the body say my technology is a platform technology where we control cells remote control so yes that's right lane is to be able to control them from outside of the body was joking when i say the is that what you could really do she dictate where cells go and what they do when they get the yes so what we used is the principles of magnetics we used magnetic field stretchy move cells around the body we tax the cells with magnetic nanoparticles which you're very very small and then we can actually visualize the ms while using emma i technology tell me about these nanoparticles and how do you get them to stick koneohe and the social won't control what do they might do so we attach the cells outside of the body and we attach some specific receptors that are located owned the cell types and they're made of iron oxide and actually we naturally have i dunno cuts it's in our buddy say something the buddy doesn't reject essentially than i would have some cells taken out of milton wife income someone else then and you at this collection of nanoparticles to the cells in the dish and will likely won't in in the right place on those old so we could use peptides small molecules that we can attach onto the surface of the of the particle and that binds to the receptor only membrane of the cell and what's nice is the principles of based on mechanics so receptors in our buddy rashly mechanically activated bowl which i don't think people knows much about and so we can actually move the particle and it operates the mechanical switch on the receptor leading to a downstream response wants to sills been decorated with the nanoparticles how do you get back in the body the jet yes so what it aligns itself where isn't injectable cell therapy we inject into in oregon such as the need for cartilage repair or insights of bone damage ferocity of persist when we cannot see localize an injectable format and how'd you then take tight the cells i want you to go here but not here so we can use magnetic fields to target those cells just pacific regions of the body that's the principal the particles calls get attracted to the magnetic fields and get localized to the sites we want them to do they drag the sale then yes basically and if you make those magnetic fields mobile just i mean you could make the cells vocal and that could into an act like this which is yes that's out there we change the magnetic grady and then the particle moves in the in the gradient it can be very small movements and it sets up forces on the receptors and they would serve six to eight peak earnings and those forces are enough to activate and open cells receptive happy pico newton 'cause i'm a web one newton is if i if i lift up on apple as one newton isn't it roughly a hundred grams so happy pico newton then small again you'll get your and you're getting out of jail free with that but okay so we have these sales they've got these particles on the surface you vibrate them with these magnetic fields as a result you'll throwing these switches backwards and forwards how do they switch is a change will sell does so the particles attached to the receptor and when they move they activate the receptor and you get a downstream signaling that singleton be a variety of different signals but what that does is leading to a affectively gene activation and and then you have an expression of different proteins so what we wanna do is that she controls cells type if you think about it you have cartilage bones different cell types in your body and what we can do is take these stem cells could be anything and by changing the receptor activation we can then turn them into boehner week and turn them into cartilage week and turn them into different types of issues so you can imagine weaken inject in the south week and then remotely change the way the cells behave and then form issues in the body they say ultimate aim and there's not a chance to nanoparticles could fall off the stem cell phone to a halt so and i extend my heart into a lump of bone and isn't pumps i will now ashley benchley the particles are internalized in the cell and what we've studied it changes the way the particles are so they no longer able to find other cell types and so there's no danger the person who's going on that flight and goes through the metal detector whatever they airports gonna extending activate stem cells downstream of this and they arrive just emotion possible anymore people selfie that question am i gonna cut touched the fridge maggots i think the point is that we have quite a lot environment are bodey anyway and actually they might have ironwood putting in is nowhere near the level of what you're eating steak and they decided to end i think is basically that anything will be cleared from the body wrench and so you won't be permanently magnetized and i can't push these cells into an abnormal route of development they're not gonna become cancerous three being stimulated in this way for example yeah and that things we have to be ready castle so we have actually check that isn't the case so far in our hands we have not seen any evidence of that happening and this is far off because this is sounds a little bit of spice so each it does but actually we're we've just been received a significant amount of funding so we're going to be developing this over the next five years and we would like to think we can reach patient in a five year window it's extrordinary how fox this field is moving at least l has that talking to chris the health horizons feats a house cat four and in cambridge from space age technology no space itself on the quest to look for life on are nearest planetary neighbor mars this go got a boost this week messes curiosity rover which is been traveling around on mars since it on the six years ago the study the surface of the chemicals fingerprints of life suddenly detected a powerful way of the gas me saying while it was sampling the martian air means that matters because it might be a hallmark of microbial life both past and present but it could also be the product all their natural chemical processes case spoke to david robbery who's a planetary gio scientist with open university where he's been keenly following this story curiosity in how some of the mullah's that mr into a chamber on eight times she's a laser beam to and fro across out chamber looks very specific absorption of specific wavelengths of lights and floodlights posted the concentration gases it's called achievable lays suspect so much because it could change the way brings a lot of using the tune it to exactly what particularly if you're looking for should be doing okay so this laser beam if even output like how much guess exactly it's been well covered by somebody a sudden they've got some on board calibration is well so the measurements is making a pretty robust unspoken team members that no dancing the numbers that guessing well all that it's in the helmets me saying what they like the recent stock goes up to twenty one parts per billion that's not me saying the tool but it's a lot higher than normal background normally we've been seeing may sign with the curiosity rover at least less than one point two billion when exactly once they see you know how long did it stick around for what excites you paypal was when a plume was seen in the middle of june when he disappeared very very rapidly it was gone above the twenty second twenty third of june not story crucial information if it disappear so quickly it's telling you it wasn't a large volume of may find you know sniffing vh really extensive plume you're in the middle of a small plane which can and very quickly be blown away opie telling you she thought the local atmosphere that this may say must've been released very very recently fit to be detectable it could have been trapped underground millions of years before escaping ultraviolet lights out on top and delivered by matron monitoring make sure i can give you may find rations between warm water rock below ground can give you may find in lake as a me thing can be purchased by raunchy of processes or it could be being generated racy today by me fame producing microbes which would really like to be the case 'cause we love to find some life on mars water scientists doing to better understand these outlasted have any seasonal captains and managing or is there anything that being that's just seasonal pass into the may sign curiosity curiosity is moving around not very fond the ground schuyler things may find raunchy sniffles at one point two billion level with the seasons that curiosity saying i think three different spikes now with the latest one twentyone pasta billion and maintains also detected spacecraft orbiting a us the most sophisticated spacecraft now is they try got a little bit of a new wrinkle no matter on board and i understand that is looking very hard to see if they could find this flu season on the surface the trouble extra mobile you're well equipped cedar lodge plumes atonomy plume covering a few square killing makes his property wbz he thought the win you won't see from old but but that looking and that will help depends on the nature of the plume appliance tj assigned sex that what do you make it they should we be excited i'm interested because it's the biggest plume we've seen sophist so we need to build up a database of how quickly by a pit how quickly making this up and that will help us track down how locally the siamese so i think he's gonna turn out to be very locally to whether rover is i think it's just small bus so many fain we need something on the surface and doing all the topics study of the may sign because living processes will concentrate so it's a nice the types of carbon and hydrogen over other isotopes and that won't be the case full abeille sickly produced may sign so he needs a fingerprint may find which may be yet to do with incidents we don't yet have on laws on van wick and really tell is it life doing this or is it something just chemicals david rosary there from open university and he was speaking katie about reports this week of me saying peak on mars stay with the space team time now to debunk eight misconception on this week must be whole has been investigating skating the controversial claim that space travel is experienced viva gravity three to one zero space it host cutlass environments that are detrimental to our health but ironically is home to one of the most sought after astronomical phenomenon to experience zero gravity space is a mere a hundred kilometers away from us at all times yet only those trained as efficiently as astronauts not have the privilege to feel weightlessness in space if you're willing to pay a considerable amount of money there is de option to experience simulated weightlessness using an airplane traveling in parabolic flights the dips in the trajectory of the plane had been designed recre eight zero gravity but this isn't real zero gravity right buying tickets released parabolic flights would be like buying grandma's cookies in the store they'll get the job done but they're not be authentically duleep mouthwatering cookies from grandma nba well that's where the misconception lies these ideas zero gravity or no gravity at all doesn't exist let's look at the international space station contrary to popular belief the weightlessness of the astronauts in the highest as is not not due to reduce gravitational forces the poll from gravity at their height is actually almost the same is here on the ground the truth is there actually falling every single second the iss is in orbit the football field sized hunk of metal is actually in free fall in sort of the astronauts inside and yes i referred to in american football field the fact that these astronaut have not plummeted to their doom is thanks to the speed at which the isis orbit the or a casual seven and a half kilometers per second the station moves so fast that'd be earth's surface curbs away from their freefall pat essentially the isis is a large project out keeps missing its target the help better visualize effect imagine a cannon on top of a really tall mountain that hasn't on obscured view in front of it you wanna make the kennan bogo as far as possible into the clear space ahead of you but you only fire horizontally how do you do it by increasing the speed at which the cannonball has launched it and then cover more horizontal distance before gravity pulls it to the ground now imagine you're kennan has limitless power and you keep adding more energy to increase the speed of the cannonball eventually the ball will reach a speed great enough to circle go around the earth inland behind you add more and more speed and the ball will keep circling in never touched the ground despite the fact that it is falling that is essentially wouldn't orbit is an object in a seemingly endless freefall one other key concept to debunking zero gravity is that gravity is literally everywhere look at the moon for example earth's gravity is what keeps it in orbit around us the iss is between the moon an earth which means at the station still experiences the force of gravity from earth say you require a rocket in blastoff away from earth's gravity the sun has a gravitational pull that extends a couple of light years in all directions let's boost the power of that rocket rocket and say we make it out of the sons gravitational field even still there is gravity from the milky way galaxy keeping you in billions of other stars in orbit let's get even more ambitious and say we leave the milky ways ring of gravitational influence at that point there are so many billions of other galaxies floating in the universe that you will entered their ring of influence no matter how far you could theoretically go gravity will always be there lurking in the background making me idea of zero gravity impossible so go ahead and buy those plane tickets because that weightlessness is exactly the same as seen in space it won't be endless freefall like the iss but it isn't out of this world experience nonetheless thank you matthew you whole forgetting about mr is under the influence of gravity of course meanwhile if that some suspicious sounding science you've come across seeking justice aligned chris at the naked scientists dot com and we will take a look coming up in space no one can hear scream raisch will be finding of literally stay tuned but say this week scientists announced they must i don't the structures of important proteins things like the homeowner incident or even spider silk using music this gives them a new die mentioned studying how proteins wick and how we can use biotechnology to tweak protein study of the important jobs as on key to a nearby in explains we think of eggs providing us with a good source of protein but in fact proteins are everywhere but the basic building blocks of all living things they're finding plants animals and even food jelly he is in fact an edible protein protein coming many shapes and sizes but could be ordered structures like a cook scurry almo randomly shaped like noodles kicking in also lodger objects they literally looked like broken motor structures now marcus mariota and his team at mit have found a way to translate these protein structures into music but fast i asked him what is approaching actually made off proteins are made from building blocks called amino acids twenty unique amino acids you could imagine them being like beat on a string each beat that you add to the string is one of those twenty amino acids and which i mean us it is actually added onto the string is decided defined by the dna that is the blueprint for how this particular protein is made but what does this have to deal with music so the way we understand how these amino acids actually sound like an if we do a very careful analysis we found that these molecules earned static they continuously vibrate these reparations can be calculated based upon their mechanics in what we found is that each molecule has a unique frequency spectrum in once we make the audible each molecule has a very particular way it sounds sounds like so that's apparently have a license molecule sounds that's the protein which you find an egg whites so what's the point in doing this by listening to the proteins begin to link the structure of proteins how they fold kind of function they have with how they sound and we could begin to edit the protein and actually change the sound and maybe design new proteins or understand how mutations and proteins affect their functionality and many diseases originate through mutations of proteins an indie audible space we could listen to the front proteins healthy protein the disease protein andrew could begin to understand what other changes that actually cause this breakdown of functionality and maybe costs disease that may be very useful applications confirm the slack proteins everywhere nature and a lotta times sexually active materials and these give us an opportunity to create materials that are not only made from a new resources but they also are resilient they usually have strong mechanical properties ended they kinda great automatically with this new approach of being able to understand in a very different level hell weekend design proteins we might be able to create new materials that have more sustainable property even better functionalities sustainable resilient and can be recycled and a very simple way that there are twenty different amino acids and making it raised in any way surely there are millions of possibilities new kinds of proteins how do we know which action useful we not only have translated these proteins in the sound of also use artificial intelligence to help us understand understand the language that nature speaks retraining or network within the new network create new sounds and we translate the new sounds back into the printing sequences and then we try to make these proteins and try to understand what they actually do and how they function ended up possibly hopefully funding proteins it actually perform even better than the national proteins that's the nature has created that was mockus be on the paper setting out that which is in the general ac yes not i if you want the how a play around these titans there were such great have released an app called appropriately enough i mean am i said synthesizer and you can get it from guilty speaking of food a new ultra cheap food sensor and instantly tell whether you're chicken thighs are still go to east it's called the paper based electrical god's sensor and it might just say supermarkets wasting some of the millions of tons of food they throw away every year plus it could even connect directly to a smartphone threat scooter from imperial college london is the devices inventor and he told phil sense of how he came up with the idea pay precarious a substantial amount of water that would allow us to do you know what chemistry without ever adding a single drop of water to paper so you need essentially liquids to the chemistry oftentimes and this liquids it's absorbed from the moisture india it turns out that environmental justice can actually interact with this layer of water that's absorbed in paper and by measuring just electrical trickle properties of this layer of water we can't determine if asserting gas is india environment how did the gas in fact be electrical properties for example if there is ammonia gas india environment it can actually come and then dissolve in this layer of water in the islands with increasing concentration of violence there's also an increase in conductive it's yogis layer of water so by just measuring conductivity we can essentially measures the concentration of let's say in this case ammonia oh so like if you measure how well the piece of paper conduct electricity that goes up if there's ammonia in their precisely yes the sensor itself as most sensitive to water soluble gas is an ammonia is a highly water soluble gas so it's really really sensitive time own yeah but it is also sense of the other water soluble justice such as tried my pillow mean anyone carbon dioxide and it's basically just paper right so that's why is that cheap they cost about two cents an through high volume manufacturing facturing we estimate that probably weaken decrease the prize about a thousand times where you're gonna do with it so we have a very inexpensive sensor that performs really well so it will just to me that obvious that this would be a really useful technology in you know sensing spoilage and freshness of of meat products because meets us pertain rich when the proteins decompose they released a lot of ammonia an end mental i mean so nitrogen compounds so are you anticipating that you can use this i i sensor inside the packaging of me to tell whether it's going up front on yeah precisely so i started talking to various managers at a grocery stores just to see you know like what they think about this because because clearly the literature says that you know the the food waste is a big problem well first of all this was a really difficult thing to do because it turns out that most grocery stores were not really interested in you know sharing their stats with an outsider they don't wanna tell people how much food they throw away so i had actually you know bill personal relationships with some of these managers to gain their trust one of the things that i noticed is that the meat products which are considered to be high value they already contain a various electronic components that are embedded inside the packaging itself and the most known example of this is is extra near field communication tags such as the ones that are used in oyster cards and so on and this allows retailers to be monitored in inventory and because are sensors electrical it turns out that we can integrate are electrical sensors onto these disposable near field communication packs that are already in place with mid packaging by making components or making i guess smart tags that would allow and it's also monitor the freshness of foods they think that they would be able to save a lot more money and kill away a lot less food that was from scooter with sensors made from just paper he published an article about invention in the journal abs sensors and if you'd like to find out more but any of the news items discuss this week all the transcripts of papers commute on her website naked scientists dot com now if we open up the mailbox this week we had an amazing email from an extremely long time listen the more evidence from hillsborough oregon has been listening to his since two thousand among says when the date feel teams experiments involving a high altitude balloon which if you've been listening to the naked scientists you'll know what we're talking about and will come in a bit i was reminded of the children's book by david wise net june twenty ninth nineteen ninety nine easy along state coincidence smoke says or someone on the team also on his book to my shame i haven't heard of this book adam have you if it's someone on the team it isn't me i'm just astounded by the coen so thank you so much mock though feel loyal listening and we hope you continue to enjoy the show for more from the naked scientists head to our website the naked scientists dot com you could follow us on social media where a naked scientists and why not leave us a review wherever you get your podcast from the naked scientists podcast is produced in association with spitfire cost effective voice internet's and be engineering services uk business find find out how spit siachen empower your company at spitfire poodles uk music in the program is sponsored by epidemic sound 'perfect music for audio and video productions now we've been talking streams over the past few weeks and this week is are final extreme show extremely high take a listen to this plus plus that's what does they lied about spending more on that later but many of the world's population a london is the confidence to our low on the bodies out high altitude and how could understanding the science involved so help us a treat critically ill patients in hospital cambridge university physiologist on june murray was on exactly this andrew will all you holding a collection of tibet some press lex blue represented the sky whites representing at representing fire green is walter and yellow cs you find a motive in the poll limited at the fuck broke maloney reminds me of many a fun times and exciting times to pot doing science in the pool all the way from cap on to live up to the hype pasta the himalayas leaving flying i'm somebody that first before we hear about your offense is what happens to the human body as you offend well there's a real distinct time dependent response we go to the mountains and when you land when you step off in that plane at about two thousand meters instantly a response you stop breathing hot try and bring more ox janine that's the challenge of kohl's you're hot start speaking soft hurts deliverable blood run bethel rockstar around the body to the issues such as the muscles needed and then given enough time you might see more changes so off to a couple of weeks you'll you'll be making red blood cells to carry more extra you'll what involves having healthy people trek up everest and then you gene science with them so festival what is it light takes your breath away the hits the fuse absurd stunningly scenery the wildlife but more and more you note to self getting breathless not being able to push yourself to quite the same extent to do at sea level i mean around two thousand meters which is the altitude worthy at autism first reaching if you're flying that do feel pretty instantly while so you haven't even started climbing and you're opera yes absolutely and then the step sudden annoy steep flight of steps just coming away from looks like you know you're in the mind since one constantly up that science seedings what we've done in the past have set up lots of lots to pronounce choosing bell trae co owner regimented offense fence so nobody is going any faster than anybody else and then will do things like the demonic sized bikes will measure how much student dale using public and calculate their efficiency and of course we we wouldn't be a medical scientists poking and probing the needles and taking blood samples study back in a lab we had a big expedition in two thousand and seven might be took over two hundred law line to striking debase come you see some people do rudy robert well who were climatize and consumption very altitude and others to robert less well i'm trying to understand why that is and with large numbers we're hoping we could get a handle on the genetics mike's on delight of what all these general applications of doing this kind of research on healthy people at high altitude and that's always been the gold group is to understand than white is the some people do well with less auction altitude and somebody less well and is it the same factors at play the determined whether a patient in intensive care unit who's struggling with a lack of oxygen whether they will pull through and survival whether they will succumb that real nece the story about outs cheetah climatize ation when we first started doing this is largely okay it sold by truck to get more students through the system to the issues the field metabolism so it's all about the hot rights and freedom writes about blood cells and xt what we found is setting up the full story it's much more about how your shoes used the extra money gets that's how you'll metabolism is finally ching to deal with low levels of oak street we find the same thing may very well be useful to a patient they are in a hospital that hot is not working properly like a low level stocks junin that blood that'll student getting to the tissues it it makes a sense that she would you see auction more efficient mea culpa looking at seeing some of these critically ill patients have that issue so are changing the metabolism to deal with levels folkston so what did he lynn benso fall paralleling these two situations yeah so looking at the patient sucking working with colleagues from extreme evers to based at the royal free hospital in london and we sat she see many of the same patterns of change breaks at altitude done done in the clinic some muscle stunts to decrease its capacity fuse factors of fuel we think of factors being a and unhealthy thing actually it's the most important field in the body stole most populous fat so you gotta have a good reason to shut down your ability to use thoughts on the problem it's not just that it's quite oaks june hungry to get energy in the form of icy pay off onto the clause called lubbock students do that so we've seen evidence and settings the petitions the switching away from fence small extra deficient fuels perhaps glucose for instance is incredibly fast say you could maybe chat a mechanism listening in distill it into a drug even give to people who are critically ill well you having to achieve with taylor chemicals just the you could help a patient who perhaps most in dealing with a level suction punching them metabolism to deal that but it trust me i think this work is already made a big impact in the clinic in the previously v opiates response to team up with the patient blow up symbols to ventilate skipping pure oxygen spree detroit springer's auction levels backup uninteresting very recent research research has shown that isn't helpful in fact it may even be harming the patients the hawks janine high concentration sexy toxic to the body so instead what going for a bit of a middle ground and the clinicians i've worked with talk about something called permissive hypoglycemia high poxy femurs levels folkston in the blood so were allowing the patients in other words were allowing them to deal with this level of oxygen to adjust to it maybe they're shutting down that all these extra mcclements and there's public goldilocks zone a sweet spot which they they won't pay cycle extra weight but finding out what the rights of mine to is probably the most obvious and easy ossification now eat we did steal sny bates lap kyle what are you working on now really in the last few weeks we stopped the study looking at high altitude sense so these offenses from women living in colorado or any anti simply looking in the past and bolivia and up collaborate just been collecting these defenses they've been preserving them a free some dumb and then flying the move to a loving came virtually looking looking at the metabolism ulta percents of in particular leap much country these like powerhouses and how they use and yolks june to make cellular energy stole the growth fifty developing fetus as pregnancies said take place at higher and higher altitudes the both white to the baby tends to full so and average preppy thousand meters you send these white just about a hundred grams light so now this isn't quite true full some high altitude natives if you look at these women in bats in the poll you look at the woman in yankees will give above that maybe still liked it but only by by eighty grams so they're relatively protected against these levels folks and crucially but why that is we don't really know in this number of possible explanations could beat do but the bullets plight could make it easier to get across the defense it's defeats us it could be metabolism abused no more efficiently or it could be things like empty ocsta molecules protecting against free radicals these reactive oxygen species that could be damaging michigan hong kong season which produced level should that anything that can be applied to people having a troublesome pregnancy but see an ultimate application supplicant understand why it is these women can get both to relatively healthy babies even a child's shoots we could apply some of these findings to some pregnancies back here at sea level wet conditions like pre eclampsia ceo or insure you trunk restriction might also also auctions defeats is so we're gonna have to invite you find out what's going on yeah hopefully we'll have ounces in a in a few months time tonight from cambridge university thank you very much and it's not just humans who adopted the highlife if you think claiming in the himalayas is the challenge you've got to be impressed by this perhaps most famously in nineteen fifty three when ever switch climbed the first time a member of that expedition actually said that he seemed case flying out the high to everest that's wild just charles bishop from bangor university on the geese he's talking about are bar had these katie spoke to charles to find out how on earth these key survive and thrive on these extremely high migrations about a decade ago he and colleagues mongolian breeding grounds these hardy birds in order to better understand how they're capable of making these journeys well with very lucky the ducks and geese go through what's called a post breeding notes which means so they draw all his life and his first couple of weeks while they're raising their youngsters so we canoes canoes is to corral 'em internet's and catch them in reasonable numbers now mostly cloudy scattered how easy is it to attack on agrees that probably doesn't want to be tagged as she had any they look wonderful kind of white and gray buds with e to black basel cross the cheeks and make some famous in the yellow bill that have a very diverse all night we had some tax the gave us global position we could track from every hour or so and over the journey so they were taking out the migration could lost over a hundred hours of actual flying in total live and many weeks we're also interested in how tough all these journeys and in order to understand the kind of physiology and the mechanics of the flight itself a we had settlements is the gap between be frequency doesn't change a lot of goose but when it does change it indicates a big change in power outputs a small changes in green bay frequency would tell us about having too much harder and we could also estimate how deeply they flaps so they would also increase wouldn't be frequency same time they would she fled in a deep but what we call the increase in that amplitude if the wings so increasing much higher forces but the hard work of course and then heart rate we news also as a proxy for energy consumption or auction consumption that she fled in some decent when tunnel many years prior to this which is very fortunate where we correlated auction consumption gangs heart rate crucial times back again so did not involve just going back to the the same breeding site and getting back and you're kind of a yes so unfortunately we couldn't download the tax so we did have to recapture but in order to obtain the tax and the gps ones with spotlight pace but in order to get their central matiz in the hot right but did have to recapture the central coast we lost the tax because we didn't foresee all toby couldn't always capture all puts take us through your findings and what did you let it and we found the birds were very very sensible so they only sinked flies highs they needed to and we call it the roller coaster strategy because because they would effectively followed on the line to right so when there was a high bridge and the barrier they were capable of getting over it but we have any requoted a maximum high to seven thousand three hundred meters directly with gps and they wouldn't stay high up as offshoots no more and multiples minutes and then they would send again as the terrain changed this meant that she stayed as low as they could most of the time within a few hundred meters why wouldn't you just do your ascending thing and then just stay as high as you need to and fly over the mountains that why why adult this roller coaster strategy will see advantage which included from this is the pulse of staying high was sufficiently difficult so hot rights we were getting the goose maximov rates around about five hundred beats per minute at sea level at altitude but not too sure but we did recalled hot rights over four hundred beats per minute and at maximum four hundred sixty but only very rarely an altitude that might be just very very hard they as getting thinner is they go high auctions how to obtain the full says they need getting harder to generate so thrust takes you forward keeps you moving gives you a flight speed and then of course lift keeps you in their support white so they were going down whenever they could be denser at wet auction with more available and generating the forces was easier with humans of course we have to go the mountains weeks beforehand before attempting something as high as as everest colleagues of mine of puts by the geese at rest into and atmosphere of only five percent oxygen equivalent of being a celebrity is about seven percent central stern sea levels twenty one percent oxygen and they were okay which no human could do as well attended the flight nights notes in the day we once expecting that with the gates and we kind of thought they might use wins the systems if they could get a talent and you'd be covering the ground much quicker cops the cost of the total journey why would it be beneficial for the geese to fly in darkness i would have still it's just more difficult fuzzy while going possibly you could avoid predation by flying at noise another possibility is that it's much colder cool senate could drop twenty two degrees see the effects of that would be to increase at density be effectively like flying maybe five hundred hundred beaches lower so by flying at night when there is cooler air is then again generating forces easier auction availability also increases so all beds able to cope with guessing i think the oxygen into their bodies which seems to be more difficult the higher up you go how do they have the humans seemed to be better adopted two high altitude long systems and they ability to circulate students through the body does appear to be a nightly superior the long systems of fundamentally very different in design they actually have what we call unique directional slows so they it policies through the lungs from one side to the other doesn't expand the track like a human long but it does have associated ass tax the permeate throughout the body but they expand tracked and that i bellows so when the boat breeds in fills up some fx then when it breeds out those aspects empty see and that she policy as through the lungs tissue and you get gas exchange auction uptake see a two out put them when they're using their breathing in again they're pushing that air out to the food as sex and then finally it old guys out on the second out breath probably makes both lungs more efficient perhaps at altitude in particular the surface area fallback us exchanges probate twice as great as most mammals and had a geese how find tune these protesters even even having larger wings and other geese to allow them to reach these incredible heights that was charles bishop from boston university coming up we've launched you'll screams a hundred and twenty thousand feet up in yeah how the team gets on on did the kit survive the trip will be finding out in order to listen to my voice through radio smartphones smart tv or even katie here in the studio with me admits these computers you're using electricity and with the growing global population increasing power consumption un urgent need to reduce fossil fuel usage where will we get sustainable energy sources from encounter these meet our needs one option is nuclear we already have nuclear station on saving the uk on around the world fusion the other side of the nuclear coin isn't yet a feasible weights powell you're tally ellie old the capitol to make your morning cup of so how sustainable is nuclear fusion as a source of electricity while we get it on how to the physicists nick walked in the fusion expert and the uk atomic energy authority based on the color and center the fusion energy in oxygen mc festival how this nuclear fusion actually wick fishing infusion of two sides of the same coin in fishing with taking very big elements were splitting them apart and it turns out that when they get split apart they way a little bit less than one night together and that difference in the white turns into energy so we could extract energy from the infusion we're doing the exact opposite taking two very large elements and we're pushing the very very close to one another when they pretty much touch each other they cling together they form a new elements and it turns out that when they came together they were little bit lighter then when the effort and weaken extract that change in white says while his energy but you get fusion to like we have to get these things very close to one another and they really do not want to be close to each other so we have to get into very very high temperatures whizzing around colliding with one another and that's what we're trying to do it all up and down in column how safe is fusion compared to fish and it's inherently safe say in fish and you get fishing work basically by taking the loss of few i'm putting it next to each other and the field produce neutrons neutrons create will fishing fishing creates more neutrons and you have the chance of having these meltdown affects we don't have stopped infusion we have to supply the thing with heat for it to work and we only have a limited amount of fuel so we assess the fuel into the machine full of outfield fuses then we have no more fuel to create an email fusion and it doesn't matter how the thing it's not gonna creates anymore fusion so we have to continuously refueled a machine that is i study at somebody eat organization about this and they found that a fusion power plants would have affective radiation outside outside it was a thousand times less than the ambien radiation you'd see if the worst possible containment breach of a fusion power plant actually happened i'm someone who happened to be standing exactly at the location of out containment breach they receive seaver radioactive does about the same as each ing if you've been on his four year old living in komo four yes i inherited lee safe feeling option so the tricky part is keeping it going as opposed the running away from you exactly fusions fusions kind of funny because we can do the two ends of the things we can get things defuse and we can extract energy from it but keeping that process going is extremely tricky you're not ready been the challenge over the many years people like myself working on this and how do we make it through this consistently instantly so we buffalo the gas in the chamber of one of our devices once we start pumping heat into it we develop this thing called a plasma which is a soup of electrons and arms whizzing around the place and we used very very very high a magnetic fields keep everything in place we heat up we continue fuelling and eventually we get to the confusion relative in temperatures and these things start to collide once they start collide we start get fusion going so we can keep it going as long as we could feel the machine well temperatures will be talking a sort of a hundred million degrees calvin were talking ten times in the sunday when justice running one of machines is the hottest place in the solar system well now how sustainable are the ingredients needed fusion what are those ingredients so ingredients that we use so we will be using in the react to the future determined tritium they both like hydrogen but we've added extra neutrons seventy tyrian we add one extra neutron and you confined you chairman sequel to something like one in every six thousand items in hydrogen and see what should you cerium at tritium is not natural it doesn't come a three natural process this and this but it turns out we could get tritium from him just by combining lifting but neutrons if you take all of lithium in a laptop battery for example and eight ball for the sequel to you've got enough potential feel that's how you're hiding for about twenty years doubled to me foreign buff when this comes around will people actually be able to afford us projections are the when when fusion becomes a reality should be about is affordable is nuclear fission is now and but of of course this isn't emerging technology so i'm still a couple of decades away from seeing these electricity on the grid and as decades of innovation still in line to stop bringing that costs down and then once we build the first fusion reactor the tenth becomes a lot cheaper and the hundred suddenly becomes a lot cheaper the not the big question of course is how green bay we don't want another kind of fossil fuels type energy coming around absolutely and this is really really one of the big gains from nuclear fusion say they feel sosas themselves a reaction itself has no carbon in it so they the product we get back out again it heating helium is is comedy actually a stash around the globe so this is probably a good thing dirty cobb and we'll spend the nuclear fusion is building a machine itself walk claimed of time scale are we looking at before we have fusion power televisions in her house so they held anecdotes the fusion is twenty years it's been twenty years wife and fifty is it's nice to be able to say ashley fusion genuinely is around twenty years away there's this the machine being built in the south of france schoolteacher at the moment and when he comes in and starts running it will be the principal and once we've proven the principal and we've proven that fusion could produce electricity then we can start building reactors start seeing it really impact holiday today life's nick walks and thank you very much and hopefully it won't be long before my nuclear fusion powered cup of tea well we've been talking about this for a few weeks now and it finally happened on the twenty ninth of june we launched our balloon in the space they say that in space no one could hear you scream but we want to actually stop for ourselves so after months of collaboration with engineering firm brunelli university we touched a loud speaker on the microphone to helium balloon unscented up to one hundred i'm twenty thousand feet sales on some recording chris expanding the story we do this is to send a balloon to the edge of space and the reason i bring that is the we want to test the theory the in space now and he's going to be rake has been built by day event so so this i squarespace pyramid may dowling housing ever wear ties from this is suspended on springs i not speak up the square and a little bit further down i little tiny microphone in a lump of brawls try give it a bit more max so they all hanging in space but supported by the springs cindy plastics they're not connected to each other and they could see each other but there's no way for the vibrations to travel out to one indians deal the rick's been built but i still on the software has been written by i'm all get the biggest challenge for me was getting the device small enough and getting a power source ican power all of this this thing has got to get two hundred and twenty thousand feet would easily go mount everest so we need to make sure the whatever we do we can cope with low pressure on low temperature we bolt a cheap speak a healthy intimate and then we went simple i micro find the cost about eight pounds and pretty quickly realize how much if i'm not gonna cut it because it rubbish so we went to boats eighty pound microphone and that was much better than so are screaming that was recorded with the mike and now we're gonna pay what the mike recordings so it's playing the audio of the screams and also recordings new and we're also recordings all those things like temperature pressure there is also a satellite transponder on it because we need to try this thing where it's going because we gotta go retrieve it and we have no way of controlling where it comes down a possum watching the weather and slowing it not noise coming from these receiver and receivers receiving data from the transmitter about noises actually you know once you're being sent across then then on here you actually start dizzy okay here's what it says temperature and and give you the temperature altitudes latitude and longitude the weather for this is critical when something's going four hour flight all the time it's up in yeah it's subject to witness but it's pretty windy out there regardless so it's definitely gonna travel across the country so we may have to be driving to catch up with this thing if the win suddenly changes direction and sons west then homeless gonna gun you're never gonna lose everything i'm dead excited about this i don't think anyone's done it quite the way which ones do this before so this is quite cool 'cause it's a it's a first she must be really good fun robert especially the trans nitrogen just go and call we have the best countries little lucas pervading direction is just so this blue should come down somewhere i have a booming dish i'm optimistic buoyant so now we finally arrived here in this field we've got a very large cylinder helium which is what we gonna put into the balloon one i'm sensing this for the new university this is a project that has as thousand things that can go wrong and only one scenario you're gonna be treated everything has worked rights we've got they device we've built which is in a big poll is starring bugs which the balloon is gonna carry up to twenty thousand feet we'll have to mobile phones in there and the gopro to actually take video so gonna put those in lost you have to be absolutely sure that everything's secure because we can tell how crazy the weather might get up there so yeah we're ready ready to launch now okay ten nine eight seven six five eight yes yes plus one thousand a forty seven meters after forty five minutes i'm not gonna run the prediction now that we've launched it to see exactly where it's going to end up okay so it's gonna land in a place called new cross near wolverhampton one team should now get going and we will be clear and chase after it well i'm gonna show you the best of the sea and on the precipice of it which helps marketing could touch with chris to this whole thing so we've now we discuss about me we've just received some exciting news worthy balloonist come back down again so he hopes they reached peak fingers crossed we should be landing site before they eat gluten catch that this feels right next to a river sometimes you gotta you gotta be the first ones there by subject wherever responded exactly we were supposed to find you h which is not it's just lunch in the field somewhat no danger told me to hear this in the middle of the field we lost elementary had it not been for defined my phone out how we actually found they were not very well we did it we have succeeded we actually got advice up to the edge of space and we go back again and we'd go to the data what did we find well if we look at to screams here's the first one this woman's recordings of the ground and you compare that with this which was recruited of thirty three kilometers up just before the bloom popped where the pressure is ten million baso any about one hundred of the pressure of surface you're gonna hit the two are dramatically different they second where there's very thin is really quiet so the logical conclusion is will we to have carried on going up even further would have continued to get even stay now we would eventually reached a point where there'll be so few and molecules bashing into the microphone it would barely move i knew about it here it case closed but we have made special page on our website with all of the rule which i end the recordings as well as other measurements we might go and take a look at that interesting we've got the profile of the carbon dioxide levels as we go up and we think when i grow up you could see the effects of info to buy and the city of bristol just win of where we were taking off if you wanna go and look at it it's naked scientists dot com forward slash balloon wow i actually found it again that's pretty amazing yeah i'm astounded at london where they thought it was going around and ended up in the sea or someone's garden with a dog they got real look great on the course and amazing amount of prep went into it before the loans thank you everyone involved not projects and if he wants to see these images on the video the team he recruited from building listen to the sounds of space we cetera especially web page matrix scientists dot com slash philly city go and check it out there to finish this week heather davis has been looking at the highest the highest hearing on rickard sung by female it's off to tributed to mariah carey some emotion in which she said she said that she note in the seven save but the wreck off the highest no hit by mail trump stopped by nearly a full dave in december two thousand seventeen wind yao ming reached in e eight that's the most pianos go up to the sounds could actually be described as singing is another matter pales in comparison to the highest notes in the animal kingdom though that right called is claimed by the clean wing duly batch which reached the maximum frequency up two hundred fifty kill it's that's almost fifty times a human recalled wimmer i carry is famous for having impressively lodge vocal range the skin sweet through a frequency range of two hundred seventy kill us which is over fifty times rise range these bats also she the wreckage of world's fastest chapter is with many of the species they made repeated calls at the rate of up to one every five milliseconds that's twelve thousand every minutes but the sounders gossiping does searching the food using sound they listen athletes the echoes to work out how far away not dictate what direction to then and how big it is such a high pitch how would this well the climate change will be about living tropical force so they need to try bugs another pray and the dense undergo a high frequencies make the bat so not being very focused on short range scientists believe this may help the scan the foliage bit by bit and concentrate on a small sports pray is while suppressing sing destructing background echoes when the vegetation the calls out the hearing rage of humans but muffs have evolved to be able to hear the calls and thoughts in order to avoid being lunch but you have been locked in this race throughout the ages as evolution bats raise the pitches of they call higher to avoid being overhead evolution in mouth pushes the upper limit of that hearing rage up too much but one species off the grid to wax mills has seemingly out run the competition and by a margin scientists were perplex to discover this month could hear the sounds of the three hunter killer has not had any animal is known to make the wise scientists don't know why the most whatever bolted to the accident frequencies and the mystery is driving them bazzi thank you had that on if you've got chemistry conundrum physics though a biological brain buster you would like to get scripts whereas in our usual question of the week slumped even send it into chris at the naked scientists dot com and that's it for this week thanks very much under murray charles bishop nick walked in everyone who took part in the balloon experiment that sadly brings us to the end of are extreme shows next week were

murphy katie hyler uk alicia hodge cambridge chris twenty years twenty thousand feet two thousand meters hundred grams one newton seven thousand three hundred m hundred million degrees hundred kilometers twenty one percent twenty two degrees thousand meters hundred meters hundred hours
9. Gail Porter

Grounded with Louis Theroux

1:01:22 hr | 5 months ago

9. Gail Porter

"This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC sounds like music radio podcasts. We're already live. This is beaming out. It isn't. Hello I'm Louis Root and welcome to my podcast series for BBC radio four grounded with Louis. Hollow. Records and Get to people have always been keen to meet never really had the chance to. Can't hear anything. Only now, I do it remotely. That is once we've got video conferencing software sorted and both of us in my guest a recording. Of the conversation. I've actually make friends and every appliance Michael that seems to be. I guess today is a TV presenter mental health campaign and Darling of the ninety s nut Max. Once had an image of a naked tool. So projected on the side of the houses of parliament. She is gail potent. We recorded this conversation early in the lockdown. What did you say you were saying that you were making friends with your appliances did you say yeah, figuring out how things work of mixing desk that I have not used yet at I'm trying to figure out how to use that to dip of radio recording and I bought myself a DJ set because I think if I'm going to be fifty I, need to do more and more embarrassing things from a seventeen year old daughter. So she said through me a party that's going to happen to DJ at the party that's going to happen to sing it the party that's going to happen I've got a list of things I'm not supposed to be doing and I'm doing them. It's one of the pledges as you get older they don't really tell you about which is that you can embarrass your children especially if they don't listen to very much, you have this reverse power of being able to have the effect of. Them cringe just by rapping along to a hip hop track or dancing or even just just being just being in the room when their friends lansing and you. Covered to your. I'm starting write a list because I had a conversation with her unfortunately. When all this look Dane stuff happened I was just getting back from Spain and she was staying our dads seen daughter her alter. Yes honey that right Geraldo shooting seventeen whatever. She's very cool. But before I went away, we had a fool blue conversation while I had a full bloom conversation fourteen minutes for five minutes. She didn't answer you back and I thought Oh wow. She's listening to me and I didn't realize she had the airports and her ears she was listening to catfish the bottle men. She had no idea what you were saying no clue whatsoever she this wasn't listening. It goes quite quickly from this phase of younger children where the like. What am I, GonNa do dad really play with me and then suddenly the pendulum flips if a pendulum can flip and they're often their room and what really not that much to do with you and you're like, Hey, you wanna come out and you have a kickabout WanNa go down to the park tonight. But I guess you're you're cool DADS, how do your children fourteen twelve and five because I bumped. Then once when you're in well I was GONNA say we've met a few times I think over the years but only briefly but the most recent was when we were on our way to the tube and we bumped into you and said hello and remember what we were going to see now remember. We were going to append toe to see goldilocks. I thought because you made a joke about it did a good job as a terrible jokes. I think I was fan girling Italian I was like, Oh my God. Please say hello and I was just commenting on the irony of US seeing goldilocks when you're bald was all it was the architecture of the joke I'm afraid to say is lost to me I think it was well delete. Being Q.. To work, and being here. Let's go cupboards buying the. Is, the guest bedroom and it's not really decorated. We really bringing this to life for the listeners. It's not really decorated to my tastes and it's sort of very grey and block like it. Is that your room where you get banished. This is where I been allowed to do my work in so far as doing any work, which is not that far because with three kids in the house and two parents working there isn't a lot of free time. But basically, the idea is that I come up and because I can't travel for work I had my documentaries soon put on hold until I can travel. I decided I would spend some time talking to people who I thought. I could have an interesting conversation with. So thank you for doing me the of me on this little series. Much. Asking me. I told a couple of my good friends and they were my gosh, what have you done wrong done something wrong. Is One of those weird documentary series love it, and I think it's just a chat but everyone fan girl she. So you've got love their most. Yes Scotland are asking for you. So this is a conversation. One of the things I I've been reading is that you may have had the corona virus is that correct? I'm not entirely sure because my father passed away in Spain. So I went to Spain saw everything I am bring him home. And mice to get flight whom got my dad home. Like. A huge that was in a box that got and committee. When does that happen? Genuinely this is February he passed away and then I went just before lockdown to pick him up I think get back sort of there. So yeah, go home and then to jump in but you got him home to your house yet place they're exactly you're basically cohabiting with ashes over there box. Yeah. See you want to get it just it too much to do. Moore. I'm actually the ends but yeah, he's a nice little tiny box. He's not an Avaz or anything no no not yet. It's just in a box you know what to do with them. Musical and have a chat sometimes but also. When we were on the plane size crazy but I was on my seat at the very back of the plane and a lovely. Lady. What do we spent the two seats up in First Class and obviously on my God. That's great. Two of US and sorry. US, McDonald's like. Didn't realize a dead body at my feet. I knew it's funny but you've got to laugh my dad would laugh no what me to servite make light of this situation. He died suddenly. So I'm quite. You can't say please you know he always said if he's going to go quickly same here me too I. Think not that I wanted to happen anytime soon no through any of us but. The virus when I got back could not stop sleeping was coughing a dry cough wasn't sneezing I was sweating freezing cold could smell or taste anything. So GP and obviously they said Dot com that if wound one, one one because I was really short of breath. So one one really nice. They said look if you're breathing gets worse, you call nine, hundred, nine getting ambulance that's all we can do. We don't have enough tests. So I just kind of. The cat sitting bless her she was on my chest. Because it can't breathe. Thought my God. I'm going to die alone with a cat and a day that downstairs goodness. That's quite serious. The idea of you having Kuroda virus and you're in your house I think you live a lot of the time on your own is that right? Yeah. So, who is checking up on your your friends knew that it was going on I'm assuming well, I kind of kept it quiet my best friend in Scotland because she spoke to me and I couldn't even have a conversation island she said could've video chat you and she looked she said. You the offers like. Sushi would sent me a message. The other I think wants to worry people I just keep it quiet and. Start to panic a little bit a couple of nights where a bit scary of the breathing or something else. Well, the breathing was a bit scary and then suddenly the thought of nearly being fifty and not with my daughter and being single and dying with a cow on my chest is kind of. Envisioning it but no I got through it smells come back cough scorn the sweeping thing. I think that's just boredom. No. Was GonNa, say you mentioned that you are nearly fifty? We close in age although I'm about to turn fifty whereas you've just turned I've just had. One of the things I've enjoyed about you is the fact that we're peers. Right. We came up at a similar time. We both got onto TV in the nineties. In many respects, we are part of the same generation lift through similar things. So I sort of see that with a certain commonalities. Now, I know that there's plenty to talk about with you gail and I know you've. had well publicized mental health challenges which I think you've been admirably open about an that's all part of the conversation to. But should we talk a little bit about about the ninety s because the ninety s was it was coming back to me that strange era of Britpop, and loaded magazine fhm and this sort of cultural moment in which the idea of the new lad. Yeah emerged. You you remember all of that. Those happy times for you. It was strange a really hard time because always thought of myself as the go next door and then. I don't actually understand really how all happened because the ninety s was a bit of a blur proponent ended yet know exactly and had a massive crush on Damon which he still knows and I still hate to see him in the street anywhere. But yeah, it kind of I I was doing children's television by type of goods to the nineties. Asked. By a magazine called fha Sichuan coming into a fool to shoot and I thought wow amazing. By this time you'd been working in TV for quite a while I've Philly to. Live in kicking electric circuit was a Scottish children's show. Yeah. It was like live and kicking in Scotland seen few of those clips from back in the day and you were an are an accomplished broadcast what comes across is this childlike enthusiasm but combined with total sense of poise, which isn't always the case with young presents complement complement cal that on a t shirt and said the setback. Thank you very much. These make sure I. Get some royalties if you sell a lot of them. But. So having establish yourself as a children's TV presenter, you were saying that you could approach buffet. The leads magazine to do what they just said you to come and do an interview by you. I was naive at the time and they said also. Beck Bikini Future Shoe wherever. I remember speaking to my granite timeless four she passed away. I'm not sure G. All these pictures of Ike, all her favorite icons when she was growing up in our Marilyn Monroe's and everything straight. She's not going to include zone she's going on us like general what Grad no one's going to see it. It's one of those paid seventy eight or something. So I went in the giving a couple of glasses of. Champagne everyone is lovely. I was in a bikini and then they said, would you fancy just doing a quick picture? We can see and you just luke over your shoulder and I was thinking grand said no, one's going to see it. No, yes. I did and didn't get paid when off thinking nothing of it think no one's going to see it and then. Everyone saw it. Famously it was projected onto the side of the houses of parliament. Yes. Virtually the side of the building didn't tell me I heard by the news. And you look like you might be naked. Yeah. Were you naked naked but you could just be from the back fit and some if I can use the term side boob right by genuity did Israeli, this is funny. Removed the nipple because they thought it might be offensive not a whole like. An image of a naked ladies bottom and right beep but the nipple might offend. Well, there's the phenomenon. Don't ask me why I know this top shelf magazines there must be some law against nipple being shown, but you can show cleavage right. So then sometimes you see these magazines where quite evidently. There should be a nipple there, but there's just skin. The thing is you're tall. So I can't see the took shelf magazines I just have to take your word for it nor probably would you be interested? In looking at it as I would be this is before I was married obviously but there's this sort of other species of female, which is the Nipple Los. Woman only inhabits the covers of top shelf magazines which you were briefly an exemplar very famously on the side of the houses of parliament that was about nine, hundred, Eighty, eight, nine, hundred, night, one, thousand, nine, hundred, nine. I was mortified when the whole thing came I because I thought it was just going to be a little thing. Mom was not best pleased ignored the whole thing and GRANDPA brilliant. He bought three copies gave one to call off and Uncle Melvin. Sue. Don't know going. She's really good is my granddaughter. Let's put the best possible completion on that and say he was very proud and he just wanted his friends to know what is success you were making of yourself, and by the way you know clearly that's been a defining moment for you though not the only one certainly not what you're mainly known for I. Hope You don't feel that there's anything to regret about doing that necessarily right that. Is I think at the time. I was thinking Oh my gosh. I'm Young of done something a bit daft didn't realize that we're going to manipulate me in that way and they I'm nearly fifty check me I on the building that nobody else has bums. Bombs had been in it but my mom was on NAP building. So do you know what? It's one of those things people still bring up and say, oh my gosh, it was your bum on. I mean looking back on it the ninety s for me we're very exciting like it felt that we had a new wave of music and a sense of cultural confidence in the UK bands. As you say, like blur an oasis in pulp and blur I tended to be more blur. Is it? Is something about me mark me out. I just say I'm blur or pulp I was never no ACIS fan didn't get it student get it is funny. I said that to someone the other day and they said, no, no, no everyone loved away to. I felt like they were invalidating my memory like if you didn't like then you weren't there although I was living in New York. So it wasn't there. But from a distance I was following it through the face. York. You walking over there I was working over over here getting naked and not getting paid. What were you doing? I was coming up through first of all a magazine called spy magazine, and then in TV for the first time presenting segments for a show called Michael Moore's TV nation, and in one thousand, six went into production on weekends, and then that just sort of. Kept me work more or less ever afterwards, your concept chess somebody else's concept yours in so far as it could be claimed to be a concept, it was my concept I mean, it was really just hey, it's a documentary series that follows me as I go and investigate strange crazy and controversial American subcultures I. Loved it so much because you so. Again the right questions and also you're so brilliant at being quiet. Thank have a favorite. My goodness, the into few seems to be flowing in the wrong direction at the moment surrey. But do I have a favorite? The first one was my favorite on the but Joseph. About the first one was about survivalists in Idaho and Montana who lived and thought the world was going to end Oh. Yes. Yes. Retreated I mean in a weird way in corona world it seems less outlandish. The idea of since quite normal piling food and worrying about the collapse of civilization seems they may have had more of a point than I realized the time on the subject of the nineties sewing. I have a degree of nostalgia for that cultural moment also because it's when we were in our twenties right. But I'm also aware that some of it hasn't dated. Very well, the time it felt as though what was being celebrated was kind of among other things, unreconstructed masculinity, but with a cloak of irony over it, right. So it was we'd lived through the eighties which to some extent been about realizing that you shouldn't be racist and sexist, and then in the nineties it was as though someone said Oh you can't be a bit racist and sexist as long as you say you're being ironic or it's done in a tongue in cheek way. Yes. There was a lot of sexism in television the nineties you must have seen it. But I hug everyone and someone was asking me about you know people being inappropriate in the ninety s and you to several I only worked with him once do yeah. On top of the POPs once. What year are we talking? I can't remember the whole bunch of old deejays and presenters and had a whole Ludo. So I think those me Jamie Theakston I think Sarah Corks, Jimmy Savile. I remember him just cuddling may not didn't feel Nice Vita but then I was thinking maybe it's just the ninety s and people just like cuddly each other I don't know he just gave me the creeps. Did you know that he had a reputation idea what server literally people used to think all the time? I was doing something that the big breakfast in the morning getting up doing that. So you got two o'clock you finish work by nine. Two in the morning. Yeah because we were live at seven and then you'd be doing voiceover June the day, and then at nighttime every week, it was top of the POPs. Of Pretty full schedule. So is your point that you were not partying that much. Yeah. Not really so much or different people I'd meet them for five minutes. Do a link do something there's a couple of people that just didn't. Feel Rights on a bit creepy a bit like your mates dirty. GRANDPA. Kinda thing. But yeah. Documentary documentaries like, wow. Yeah, I thought there was something weird bite him. That you go. So lead culture has its own little wikipedia and And the way they define it is the image of the ladder new lead was that a generally middle class figure espousing attitudes typically attributed to the working classes. Involving young men assuming an anti intellectual position shunning sensitivity in favor of drinking violence and sexism I. think that sounds like all my exes. I'm joking without the violence spit, but you think that's a fair characterization was something that you saw the time the tool did you think of yourself as a ladder at never never thought myself a lady I thought to myself as a worker got up did job did a few two sheets had above laugh though? My Body's not going to look like that and twenty years, time. Totally care I'd get the. Show from van you know wolf whistles or wherever I think that happens all the time. But I think in the nineties it seemed to be heightened because there were so many of these magazines and the so many jobs going to girls that look the correct way we looked to. As soon as I lost my here, I didn't work as much. I didn't look right. But you in the epicenter of it. So meeting a lot of people in the industry and going out with at least a couple of them that I know about Keith from the prodigy and then one of the members of top lawyer who married we was that fun. Did it feel fun just work? Keep is the love of my life I loved him miss. Terrible what happened that was blind date actually. So that wasn't work I didn't meet him through work. A Formula One race and Keith had been there and seen May and then someone who knew me knew him said, would you like to go on a date with Keith Flint and I was like from the prodigy? Yes sure why I was single and we went we did not stop laughing the entire evening. I then practically that was us together for almost two years. The good thing was he didn't really talk about work I didn't talk about work. We would just go into fun things or I was actually doing a program called. Wish you were here. You must remember wish you were here. Wish you were here. Wasn't it presented by just charm? I mean had been on since the seventy s exactly. So as to do quite a few episodes. So the Scottish once which was lovely and fame. But then go ask go to the Maldives it was in the days when TV production companies had money. So they said you can take your partner. So mean Keith when he'd had a few issues of the few things mental health or substance. Of everything. So by the time, we got to the bowl teams. He said a few wobbles, but by the end of it, you know he was like swimming every day we're we're going to the gym. Both of us, our mental health, which is so fantastic of course, everyone is going to be extremely happy if you're in the Maldives we were so lucky i. then when we got back at us to dry I'm going go back to work. You go back to work. He just didn't case main back into things properly and he was good in that way and obvious going right we need to keep positive and it just didn't work that way he was on a donor I was trying to work my hardest and. It was ashamed cute flint for the younger listeners legendary member of the prodigy who served it took his own life games last year mark. Yeah, basically, dancer what from he was the front man, he was the firestone tire he was the five stars and his. Musical contribution I mean that was mainly the other guy. WAS IT Liam Liam they've all been friends since they were teenagers we couldn't have done it with each other. But. Liam's the mastermind I sat in on a couple of sessions with Keith on the all had their bits. It was a proper collaboration. They were amazing and I'm glad to see them life. So many times that was just spectacle and itself did you ever see them lively? No, I wish I had. Put on quote show. and. You would think that. Well, you mentioned that he's the love of Your Life I. Think it's the first time I actually felt like, please don't leave me. That kind of low there was a healthy relationship because he had his challenges you've had your issues over the years but the relationship itself felt like it was bringing the best out of both of you could. I think. So I, think I'm not a great person to hang out with I get very bored very quickly because Keith had his issues like I had my issues seemed to just work but I always thought there was going to be that moment when we're going to have bad times at different times and that kind of work that way unfortunately. I wouldn't want to live with me at any point I, have to live with me because it's a thing. So. You. Live with. I it's not good. It's really tiring. Have thoughts in my head and I just think just change the subject they could. Have a different set of sports or feelings or be someone else. Your brain can be a great friend and a fearful enemy but the point is so I feel as I'm circling around something I'm not sure if. Got It but I suppose what I'm wondering is in working TV as a young person in your twenty s a beautiful young woman, and you obviously must have had a lot of male attention also your talent you on screen your. Talent. Why don't like that term. Really, liked the term talent and uneven of a general audience even understands that in the TV industry someone who's talent is just the person in front of the camera it's not necessarily the most talented person you could argue might be the least talented. Where's the talent? He's still in his dressing room I hated that term and the other thing is well, it's like when I go to a job and they'd say or would you like an all too key narrow up the script and they went you've done war. I think just stick to what you GITA angered it talking remembering staff and usually saying things I of lying I sometimes feel like some weird to rats get depressed a. see things light were. Being very natural on camera in live situations connecting with people your quick on your feet I mean on the point about pieces to camera and learning the lines early on when I go into TV, I enjoyed the part of it was meeting people sometimes strange dangerous people, Ku Klux Klan members, cult members, and so on the part that really gave me the fear though was when they said we'd like you to do a piece to. Camera it just felt so unnatural I really struggled with it, and then when I came to do my first series weird weekends, we did a couple early on on the first shoot I ever did I mean they were okay. But it was clear that it wasn't really suiting my strengths and ever since of never really done any, it feels quite unnatural but it's one of several technical aspects of TV, presenting I think you're really good at. Your recent documentary and head clips from your earlier material earlier shows. I should clarify for listeners that you really did a documentary about mental health issues that you've had over the years and it was quite clearly a very emotionally demanding process in several scenes maybe five or six UA brought to tears Bhai thinking about things encounters that you had whether it was with your dad or friends that you've collaborated with over the years, but there was a striking. Contrast between these emotions were very close to the surface but your commentary or voiceover throughout the program was so pitch perfect. It was interesting contrast between sort of professional completely competent on top of her game gale and vulnerable still struggling gail. Yeah. It's very odd because my best friend from Scotland I've still not seen the documentary because I can't bring myself to watch after my dad's passed away. In one of the most it's very awkward selecting scenes in the program is we sit down in pub with your dad and he doesn't quite get the total compensation rights and you look uncomfortable and he says something that annoys you or bothers you and you say I let you down and he says, no, you let yourself down that. Was it yeah. You let yourself day and other. The thing is I, bear in mind he's in your room I know Dad's we're talking about you listening to everything is less laying. Of, replied. What nothing dates which right when I was growing up with died nothing you'd yeah. Well done thoughts. There's always a bar you know, oh, it was very difficult to connect with him but the thing is I always talked dad's like twice a week because he moved to Spain same old conversations not how you doing it was kind of like what we've done wrong. Have you done the You still single you still living with a cat he was old fashioned. Scottish worked hard went to the public unite came back about eleven o'clock again about seven or eight, and that was it. Why did you talk to him on the phone? So often I, talked to my dad I mean I'm not holding myself up as a model. I think I should talk more often sometimes a few weeks go by but you must be done in the program you say every day in. Fact mostly takes in the morning UK's everything. Okay. I. Think the reason was because I don't have grandparents don't have my mom and my dad's the last person standing. So he's got a brother who I speak to know once a week but other than that he had nobody and the thing is my dad had mental health problems and as much as he would annoy me, you just can't you my short I will see majority she's like, why'd you keep falling GRANDPA? It's like because. Hugest think it's the best conversation in the world are probably would say anything he'll tell me by hanging out in Spain or going to the bar, but he's had contact with his daughter and he's happy. Just, being a good person I. Think a daughter I think I've got to the stage. I. Kind of leveled off. I was I was bad I was useless. This I was forever. So I thought Ju. Just be a decent human being, and even if he pisses me off, can I say that if he annoys me I would keep Ramoche up two wrongs don't make a right and I don't argue with anyone apart with myself oversee That says really crazy it. No. I. Think that's very sweet and in a way surprising because one of the other revelations in the program is that you're diagnosed whether or not it's an accurate diagnosis as having either borderline personality disorder or emotionally unstable personality disorder. I think I had five different lines. They didn't say that in the pro and the program you just thought you know what? Let's keep this clear. How many did you have in actuality then fi five bipolar one Too I didn't even know that was to you could have both I thought you had to choose I know only savage just looking at these people I, think I was getting so emotional because it was an hour long documentary and we spent five months filming it don't get angry but I did angry a few times just thinking I've got new idea. No, you've definitely got this now you've got this. New You got borderline personality disorder then erm I got you're fine. You're absolutely fine everything's great. who were you getting angry with the program makers or the psychiatrist I think both originally I was very grumpy with director and she knows this iphone to apologize because she was just like pushing and pushing and pushing and saying right with this with this and I was trying to say this is about Mental Herald. It's not something you can turn on turn off if I feel too. Well, I'm not being a diva, but we were working constantly and doing all these interviews and. Very tiring, and then I'd sit down with the doctor who's never met me before. There for maybe half an hour to an hour and suddenly like you label, you need to take this medication and that medication and then you'll be fine. So I, don't take any medication and a few Lewke. To know you seem great after watching that program I thought. Well, gaels really still got some struggles like there's still a lot going on with her. And yet when I speak to you now it's such a pleasant surprise to see how well you seem. If I'm completely honest I wasn't expecting it. Sorry if I've let you don't. Know on the on the contrary with my hand on my heart I thought Oh maybe she's a brilliant place to have this conversation because a lot of this stuff is still very raw and very real which would be fine but it just request different approach whereas I see now you seem really well, you know after it came out people were stopping me in the street and go oh you grey are UK as like yes I said I'm the same as everybody else we've all got ups and downs. We've all got by things with all things going on her head mine was compressed from six months into one hour. So yeah. I can keep it together. I have bad days I have good days but obviously, they're going to editor into the worst times I. Mean it's great for people to watch to say Oh actually I felt those things I think that was the message that we're trying to get across the worst parts of it as opposed to the happy times or having a great time I. Think we wanted to convey the fact that you know if you can go through it and this is the stuff you don't know about her I don't think they to put too much of me being extremely happy. So yeah, nine hundred. I'm totally fine and then I'll have my bad days or you're right talking about anything. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. I do like to ask permission before launching into the darker parts of someone story. By the way I'm Louis through, and this is my series grounded with Louis through and for today's guest, go border the nineties not only saw her at the top of her game, a TV it girl darling of the lab mix, but also dealing with a whole raft of mental health issues. In some ways, it's a greatest hits package of several different documentaries that I've done because I've done a program about postnatal mental health issues which I think you experienced I've done anorexia. Featured people who struggled with suicidality and self harm all of which have featured in some ways in your life. But I'm wondering when you look back and make sense of what happened. You know what led to those problems to those challenges. How do you begin to understand it? I don't know. I was just at school and I got picked on quite a bit because I studied a lot and so manic name was snoopy porter. So when I get home I try and be cool but overeat to the MMJ is to make pig noises up me when I was sixteen or seventeen saw overeating and sue then. Take food like ice cream up to my bedroom, and then listened to the smiths because obviously that's going to cheer me up. And then I had this sort of awareness of not being pretty or good enough I kind of went through I mean literally my entire life has been like a we ruler co-star people say that all the time by talk my great times, and then suddenly I think I'm useless everything overeating I think was forest and then are called fat. So then I stopped eating altogether and then I ended up in hospital was this how are you this point? I can't remember I, think eighteen I was getting very depressed and then between nineteen and wherever I was overeating under eating and then I think I started. So farming of I, Ninety five or ninety six when you about twenty five now. So what's coming across is there's always been part of your life that. Susceptible to these sorts of challenges right it wasn't as though came a moment when descended on new actually Enviro I I think there's always been ups and downs I've always been over emotional. I remember when I was five years old and my auntie wanted me to be a bridesmaid and there was two dresses to pick between. And my mom said, she liked one my anti said she liked the author. I was distraught for week just cried I wanted them to make the decision for me. And I remember having nightmares of it and I was only five or six. So my brain's wires a we bit differently. To did you say that you were hospitalized when you're eighteen or nineteen with an eating disorder? Class I. Think I collapsed when I was about? Twenty, two, I can't remember twenty three for. A thing that you don't diary nor went to a gym and I think it was about six stolen at the time and collapsed on a running machine on the retail torso and then it was barred from the gym. I. Was not bothered by being hospital I was more bothered that was barred from the gym. That may be fueled completely out of control a site that is by six o'clock every morning five k getting the saw lose way few goods whom five jelly babies then you how many calories was in that? And repeat set grow talk day. First of all. By the way when I was at school and I moved from a regular local primary and no sent my parents aged about ten or eleven to fee paying prep school. A fee paying school it may be very anxious. was no uniforms scuffed shoes just normal rough and tumble to this school. It was almost like something from the nineteen thirties and I began talking differently because I didn't want to stick out and I earned the nickname posh Claude. Oh my God you're posh cloud alarm snoopy porter is that feeling of social anxiety and it was odd because I was the least push one there that time anyway I overdid the correct cut glass accent and also I think worked too hard as well. I think that was part of the problem and people saw me as too much of a swat. So what's striking as well as the way in which TV can be attractive to people with vulnerabilities right. People who enter into reality shows are. Not always in the best of mental health and there's this sort of question around how do we care for them. There were two people in love, island who committed suicide committed suicide not to mention Caroline flack the presenter who also committed suicide. This is a long run-up to my question. If there even is a question I, guess what strikes me is that very often creative people at TV, or big personalities on TV, or people who come across on TV. have ups and downs. You know that there is some vulnerability there. That's true. I think it's true in every walk of life. But when you're on, TV people feel of the right to Putin papers or make it worse than is and you end up reading about tip I read tabloids or anything like that because I had my food packed. Phone. Not entirely sure through all that but I was very nervous of all my friends which I feel extremely guilty about cause I was thinking Oh gosh. How did I was going to be there? How did this happen? How did that? So I was thinking friends going. It's one of you not realizing that phone hacking was a thing I had no idea stories don't bother me. You can write what you like I don't care anymore but I didn't like the fact that didn't trust for friends and I felt so guilty about that. So that was the worst thing about the whole thing on that subject of. You're right that people with mental health challenges in all walks of life. Right. But there's a unique set of exacerbates stressors that go along with being on TV, and then having a profile and then being tabloid plaything in terms of your experience of TV and being a celebrity to what extent was healthy and fun and brilliant, and then to what extent was it the reverse. Obviously, there's a lot of people that work in television like do young presenters or I never met Caroline flack but she was popular her love life was in the paper is stuff we don't need to nearby that she'd be private and to see splashed across a paper. An Lot people say, well, you know what you're in the media. So you kinda signed up for this. You sign up for being entertaining and being fun and being humorous or doing of you doing you do it sign up for yet that gives you access to entire private life and if I've had a break up or something bad's happened it's nobody's business what I signed up to be. A Kid's telly presents I thought you know I'm just going to make people smile and be happy, and then suddenly the invasion is too much. They put me into big brother after I was really well celebrity big brother I was homeless I was bankrupt and put me into big brother because he knew I was desperate. For the listeners who aren't familiar with the story. We should try and sketch out the car toys of what happened. You've been married notwithstanding that. You'd had some eating disorders. You still manage to get pregnant, which was wonderful. You had your child honey and then you had a break up you got divorced. I`Ma hitting the main points in the background this fluctuating level of mental health. Would you say absolutely and then over the course of ten or fifteen years? There are several very serious. What's the best way of putting it episodes? You know you have a moment of seeming to want to do yourself harm there's a suicide attempt I think. What happened was? Suffering from insomnia on top of everything else son slept for by two days and then I just kept taking parasites, moles and a to some seeping tablets, and then I found my ex husband and I said I think overdone this either WanNa die but I just wants to sleep I just want to sleep I'm a fool was hacked to that time. So by the time I got to. It was already in the press that was hard. So that was chalked up as a suicide attempt. You really was really what's all of this I just wanted to sleep. I was so exhausted and I had a headache and I was just tired. I was still going through just major depression and I couldn't figure out how to sleep felt never ending being awake and I just wanted to sleep. Are Bony read the first four or five chapters maybe ten chapters of laid, bare, the previous memoir and on. Amazon I got a sample free several rid all of that right now I'll order the book and the page was correct page but there's a glitch and instead of getting laid bare the memoirs of Gail. Porter, you get laid bare a semi pornographic bit of historical fiction about the Vikings. Much rather you read that did you read it? I read the first two or three pages, and there was no sex scene and I thought this is the worst pornography I've ever read I. Love that. And around this time when you're dealing with mental health issues in a more full on way, your hair also falls out you. I'm laughing I just didn't have enough to deal with right like how'd you like this? About your hair starts coming out in chunks. Four weeks it was all gone but I remember going home to my mom's alleged Brooke that been working in a medical leaking for days people it was a program called dead famous. So we're looking for Frank Sinatra in a graveyard in Las Vegas as. Ghost if we want to be strictly, accurate. Actually going to dig him up and then bits of my hair state fulling. My boyfriend was a cameraman. Your hair's falling. We'll be fine. Maybe it's hormonal wherever get back to London honey is totally cool. She was only two years old she thought elite draw control. So we were fine with that but then went up to Edinburgh to see where mum and a hat on and I took my hat off. The first thing she said was a told you. If you mess with the dark side, they will take ear I. Don't believe that she had said that to you. Or you went out before eight, she said, don't mess with the dark saint I when I came back. To make the dark take the took your here. My question was going to be was it related to? Stress or being bipolar or the breakdown of the marriage but it turns out it was all blue is it was facts and actor and Las Vegas Chairman of the Board Him. He's got any previous on causing people's hair to fall out. MINU had to wake. You were the skeptic on that format word you. The one who is sort of credulously saying that. You'd had a chill coming up your spine and you thought you heard Jim Morrison. Communicating with you what Chris Fleming was our psychic I'm bless him. He go possessed every night, which is rather amazing and it was always by famous people. For goodness, Sake, why are you not getting possessed by Jim across the in Texas why's IT Marlon? Why is it Frank Sinatra but you know where it was great fun to me. There was a couple of times I was scared I think Alcatraz was one of the funniest we slept there. Twice five of us are not going to say the root word today it doesn't matter Mary rates dropping see bombs and how I love I love her so much. She was brilliant. Brilliant than you are. You're winning all the time here. Yes. So I'm sitting in solitary confinement in Alcatraz is by midnight one o'clock in the morning. And we had a psychic she's next to me and we're looked in and we've got a ruin cameras. You know when you film yourself. So it's me her she's like, Oh my God Topa. For voice it's like Oh. My God. What's happening she's like there's an anti room he wants to have sex with not Yugo. Just me I was like, oh Why not me? I was kind of scared to go. With me is because it was a ghost man was it wasn't a real? Madrid. Ghosts bad because we were on our own, we were locked in I couldn't even get laid by a ghost I couldn't believe that. So I don't think that was ever shooting television I think they had to. Say. That was a little too risque for a family program. He's taking me to places I've never been before. We went to go look for Jim Morrison. We dog we saying there and she's like jammer you there. And then she go. Not yu-gi-oh just me. Everything I was like even Jim Morrison seriously one of the strangest pieces of television I've ever seen was when June sarpong presented alive seance in which Derek Cora the Liverpudlian Psychic got in touch with Michael Jackson from beyond the grave it was live and Derek a cora. gravelly voice account really. Less about Michael Jackson and my granny did before she died you know what I mean like it was like he just read the wikipedia note, scan them five minutes before he came onto the set. So he was literally going. It's me my. I want to Moonwalk. Only want one glove one glove. Then a few people who met Michael Jackson. Mega fans getting in touch with Michael Jackson from beyond the grave Derek core as Michael. Jackson, says, I remember you will rent a car park and that was this. Is plausible detail that he remembered a car park. There's one time we had seven psychics Jing allies show. Just, like I can't do with this. It's like a psychic standoff. The great now spoke to me I note me I know he's book to be First Gail. No one wants to sleep with you. Doing, forgive me for never having seen that show. It sounds amazing that famous did you continue making the series without the? That was the artist's name I had Jim, member the cigar at when he's sitting in the future Buddhist and then he had that one flick of hair hamlet hamlet. This is a cigar called Hamlet I had that left I went into the May. Ask you can have to. Clarify for the younger members thorough it was an advert in which a man was trying to get his photo taken in one of those automatic photo booths and he had very all arranging his wispy comb over and just when he thought he had it his tool collapsed his hair her it looked to other position, and then the camera went it was a very funny advert I asked her to shave off and I was panicking like crazy thinking I'm GonNa. Lose my job. So anyway by director and the producer was extremely kind and he said you know what put hats on whatever makes you comfortable? I moved to do with it. And Jen kept me on if it wasn't for them I. Think I wouldn't have the confidence I did. Too when I came back to London foot you I can keep filming and working. Then that's good. So they were very kind to me, but there was a lot of other people that kind of did not want to use me for certain jobs, and then suddenly I was hailed as an expert on boldness which I love the fact that can help other people I just felt like everything I'd worked for everything that studies and I'm not stupid. Oh you want me to talk it's being bold. Did you ever go through a WIG phase? I've got pink one I've got purple one. That's for like quiz nights in. So it's never felt like it would fit with you I don't like them. They're uncomfortable audible. If I had a weird shaped head, a might weird awake by I don't like wakes. Thanks. The maybe one of the many people who tells you can see what we bumped there can see it and I was born that is where the forceps because they couldn't get me. I it pulled me any go in there and so when I saw me apart from seeing a dark side, she's like Oh us to be how to a newborn. You're such an ugly be with scarves crocheted and you're totally yellow. Fever remind me of how ugly I was what I was born. Cookie. Cheers parents are therefore to. Stop getting too big hit but. It wasn't frank, Sinatra. Tends to cause L., A. P. Show is it not well understood to you know what I don't know I did a documentary BBC as well. I'll share and I went to so many different specialists way to say it was hormones nobody seemed to know what was I stressed I do get quite stressed and anxious but so do lots of people but we don't lose our hair after the documentary care the gift be drugs or treatments and I was like I'm done I'm more than happy with the way the. And if people stare then that's fine. No. Actually. Do you know what I phoned my daughter before I came to speak to you and I said, I have just put me scar on for the first time in years of a few lashes didn't came from. I hadn't even thought about that because it's not just the hair on your head. It's your eyebrows eyelashes to is my entire body. I'm like a massive baby with boobs. That is quite the image. The scary thing is if you google, that would be fetish sites. Other probably. Very lucrative ask your way from the neck day and she if she did not have to shave or wax or anything my God that's the most amazing thing ever. The worst thing is the eyebrows eyelashes because I felt a wee bit like someone to drop face Oh it's just a bold face with no expression is very weird it's. So we were doing great. How are you feeling? How's your energy? Yeah I'm fine. I'm always fine. So you mentioned that you are not medicated is that correct now don't take anything. Have you ever? Well when I was sectioned, I was sectioned had a breakdown the me into a national health service just behind the royal free. Hospital and stairs. which is no clue Stein. So basically, it was new doctors nurses and the me in there because they thought I was. I was very depressed and I had an ex boyfriend time. And I, I just need help to speak to someone and he the police he said I'm worried might do something which we were worried that you were risk to yourself. That's right. So instead of me being played I kind of got angry and talk to, and then I think I sat in a room for by ten to twelve hours waiting for a doctor by the time to turned up he just said how you feeling I was a little bit route. So they said, right we're GONNA section. You for twenty eight days. So yes when the section me, they gave me pogos from the moment I woke up until the moment wentz beds. Didn't question just to kit. It's a weird thing being sectioned isn't it not? that. Obviously it's intended as health intervention, but it's one of those weird situations in which they're saying do you know what all that stuff about you being a free person and even though you haven't committed a crime, we're gonNA lock you up and suddenly for twenty eight days you're short of this deeper. Person? Right you're non-person. Absolutely. So they took me in and gave me regulation pajamas to everything off possessions. I didn't really have anything new doctors nothing. There was a guard outside my room as put into the room and that was it resources must've assessed. You did someone see and then say, okay, we can section her to have made my diagnosis There was a doctor that saw me and said you're in a bad place. The needed a family member to sign it to see the agreed. But obviously, my day dead, my dad lifted Scotland and I was on my own. So my ex partner same day on my family's behalf, and then I was taken in your ex. Husband no, no, no no. No. A boyfriend. I was seeing at the time that seems unusual boyfriend an ex boyfriend indeed. Well, he's x after that. He was my boyfriend time. But yeah after that, he was definitely eggs he was a bit younger than me and I think he just couldn't do with my ups and downs so. It all happened and I didn't see a doctor for. A long time, and then there was assessment day and Sudi Fifteen, i. think it was taken into room and there was just a bunch of people sitting around the table with new pads and they just went to ask if you questions and then said. You can get stuff together read. Sorry you shouldn't have been here. Sorry. Shouldn't have been here. They said she shouldn't have been here and then suddenly remember leaving the gave me a bag of medication. They said you're going to have to keep this because it's going to be difficult for you to come. Then I just remember walking into marks Spencer's and just thinking Oh my God I can buy a sack. Didn't even really want US outrage always looking around thinking all these people know that I've been locked up for. Two weeks in just a bit. But yeah, it was very very bizarre. But during that time you're feeling was the psychoactive medication was not doing much for you want to take medication but the boredom is just hitting in and there was two guys that thought were Jesus. Jesus off every morning. New Jesus knew I'M So after day one of taking medication two guys fighting over who is Jesus Just Gimme wherever you've got me wherever I'll take it. I'm done I can't cleary Asli. Yeah I. Just didn't know what to do nobody to talk to you. When I've done stories about forensic mental health in America I met least two couple of Jesus is and Barack Obama. I'm not laughing. I shouldn't laugh is when you actually that And you think Oh my Gosh, you actually do believe that you Jesus. It's not an easy interview to have with somebody who's inactive psychosis thinking Jesus. You just have to sort of change the subject really yeah that was the. Mini fight in the front room and going. Okay Sandwich anyone anyone savage. Copy Eddie. Dude. No activities whatsoever. There's nothing to do all day I used on the tally books occasionally but there's one guy he used to come, and if you saw the television on, he'd free care because he didn't like the noise we had switch off. There's one day they said we've got an activity plan for you all thank God because if I wasn't mad before I got here I'm getting manner by the day and they said, right we're GONNA do Batik. Like are you serious? Extol farmer. We're all on drugs and you give give us halt wax to make. US, right? Yeah. That's how they do isn't it teak is hot wax. Decided on incontinent pretty patterns on fabrics brain with hot wax and paint people with mental health problems. I was burning themselves and she's that wasn't the best idea I was like Batik. You have just given US crayons. So when you were in, did that get in the papers? They were there before I even got there. I didn't even know getting there. are like when they spin it, they make themselves feel less toward by spending it as a positive like brave gaels battles yet resurgent mental health issue side Gail Oh. Yeah. I get a sad deal or poor gill as well per gail. I'm totally fine. It's another chapter from Abukar. I've just done Batik. Yourself heartless. Solid material. Exactly but you've always. Decision to be outspoken and upfront about all these things that happen to you right. Is that a decision or is that just your natural disposition or a bit of both I think it's both I'm not ashamed of anything. You know we all make mistakes. I've had a few problems that. Many. People do and some people don't talk about it. I just think embarrassed I'm not ashamed is what it is and I'm quite happy moon self. I think times have changed a bit and people are more open and outspoken about mental health issues, which is a good thing. Do you think they've changed noticed a change? I've not change I mean everything can always get better. But in the olden days, we could go out people used to stop me and Chad Sage I've had this that or the talked been social media as I always say to can't help. It's nicer. Okay. Message saying thank you for listening to my chat. Few more people think it's completely normal. For. People to feel great and you're on your own the so many people that probably are sitting there thinking oh my gosh she's just may is just me so I think the more we talk I do think it's getting better. I'm still kind of anxious about who medicating people after twenty minutes of meeting when you to doctors or something I'm very kind of. Seeing people for run GOFER walk. Even if you don't want to just outside get some fresh air speak to someone I. Was GonNa ask that some people crusade against the pharmacological route you know and feel as though actually medication is actively harmful. I'm not hearing. You say that feels like you're skeptical up to a point. Yes. Definitely I got friends that are on medication. Works for them personally I've John it tried it when I was in that place and I did try it before then it's well, you can do both and if you do want to come off, it's you make sure you get advice from who gave you the medication you can't just come off meds but for me personally I like excising medication girl. DT called liberal because apparently it's good for your hair. Student. To are keeping your routine good sleep I sleep is. Less. Me sounded like I think I'm an expert or I'm doing daytime TV a good night's sleep. I've got terrible sleep. But when I have a good night sleep or what difference it makes I've been trying all sorts, herbal teas and alcohol classmates wine you soon knock me Oh quite quickly. Take more than that to me. Night nurse is not a good idea i. don't see that radio for giving a mixed message you at night knows is no good ideas not but when I had the flu or virus or wherever it was a had I did take night nurse one night and I slept. So I did take it for medicinal reasons what about like three glasses of red wine some night nurse and a spliff. What you do. Every night is Nog. Good idea. made it. Okay. It sounded bad and made it responsible. Is Nauseating okayed idea at all. Don't ask me why I know I'm going to interview you next team next time you're going to interview me. So what does the rest of today hold for you gail vessel stay is I'm going to keep writing because the book I don't have a publisher yet I did have a publisher, but then that will win a bit wrong. You know the book is listed on Amazon it says. Pretty Bird, coming June something I saw that as well, and it's a picture of my first ever book that was done in the ninety s so I don't know who's doing that but that's not me really do you have a title now? Don't have one. So if you any ideas or would say, don't make it a pun on hair loss to bold LICO I would say not I was just going to call it gail. Issue with it is writing his heart thank you so much for spending this time with you're going to get mad. Yes we did. So we were going to get your dad, didn't we? What was his name Clegg? Craig. What was this line of work? It's a building contractor. Sorry. Can you hear me? He was a building contractor. JOPPA and drop apparently is a transliteration or version of Jaffer, the city in Israel. Various. That's an icebox. Should be nice. It cost me a fortune. When you said box, I envisioned like a shoebox don't know why it's popular mini coffin is out walnut or what would is that? They spoke Spanish and I speak Spanish word just just gave them the cash instead that one lot one it looks quite heavy is quite heavy. Yeah. I. Do I say Nice to meet Craig's equipment so sorry it couldn't have been in life but no, would you know he'd be quite after this because he had a great sense of humor he a high and a by. Thank you so much for asking me. I'm really delighted. Honestly you've made by day Oh. Please thank you for being. Candid and understanding as you are. You've been listening to grounded with Louis through my guest. Today has been TV, present and mental health campaign Gail Porter. Next week in the last of the current series, it's the turn of Hollywood actor comedian and writer Chris o'dowd. Of course, there are many more conversations in the series to search for grounded with Louis through wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe. This has been a mind house production for BBC radio four put together remotely by Catherine Manon whole coping. Hi. I'm Katherine Bell and I'm Sarah Keywords we're comedian separately and a couple together with a host of you'll do the podcast that gives you insight into perfectly imperfect love. Yeah. Forget nights in with this one and Hashtag couples goals we want to know the white than has of sticking with the people we love and asking a few of the questions that are meant to help us develop intimacy. Not Give it a listen and subscribe to you'll do on BBC sounds.

Scotland gail BBC Keith Flint Jim Morrison Louis Root Spain UK Michael Jackson Frank Sinatra Spain Michael Moore partner Michael snoopy porter UK Alcatraz London Maldives
152 - The Anti-Vaccination Movement

Timesuck with Dan Cummins

2:16:46 hr | 1 year ago

152 - The Anti-Vaccination Movement

"Over one hundred eight million people were killed in all the wars of the twentieth century one hundred and eight million but the tally of those deaths pales in comparison to the total is lost to infectious disease contagious viruses and bacteria tag teamed to kill one point six eight billion people in the twentieth century alone over one and a half billion meets ex and just one hundred years only noncommunicable diseases like heart disease and diabetes killed more people in the twentieth century and before the twentieth century. Nothing killed more metex prematurely that infectious diseases noncommunicable diseases. Here's some statistical perspective on just how rootless infectious diseases have been the best estimate we have for the total number of humans killed award for the entirety of meat. Sack history is anywhere from one hundred and fifty million. Two one billion lot of people but contagious diseases may have killed over a hundred times that many while there's no way to prove this with certainty. Some historians have estimated malaria. Uh alone may have killed up to half of all of the people who have ever lived half of all made sacks over the past fifty two thousand years. Some diseases stories have guesstimates that roughly a hundred and ten billion meets acts have walked the earth which would mean a malaria alone may have killed roughly fifty five billion people mortality experts are certain that nothing nothing has come anywhere fucking close to kill him more humans than infectious ashes diseases. If there were a poster public enemy number one for humanity overall it wouldn't be a picture of a serial killer or a dictator or a weapon. It will be a virus historically. The grim reapers favorite way to harvest souls has been infectious disease as recently as one thousand nine hundred infectious diseases such as pneumonia influenza closys gastrointestinal astro intestinal infections and if area have caused fifty two point seven four percent of all deaths in the united states infectious disease killing even more people the natural causes and this percents only goes higher the further you venture back in history all ten of the leading causes of death in eighteen fifty infectious disease but times have changed now the top seven leading cause of death in the united states are heart disease cancer unintentional injuries chronic lower respiratory diseases brought on by environmental factors actors such as personal vices to smoking cigarettes stroke alzheimer's diabetes the flu and pneumonia work together to chart out at number eight rounding clean out the top ten or kidney disease and suicide is this because we have way more heart disease and cancer than we used to nope because humanity finally figured out how to fight back against contagious disease with a powerful new weapon the most important weapon in the most important death match in the history of humankind the q tip cue tips tips have saved literally billions of lives since her sixteenth century debut by cleaning out the favorite place for lethal viruses and bacteria enter the body earwax. Get outta here. Your cue tips have saved anyone. They probably punctured eardrum or to the vaccine. The vaccine is arguably the most important event of all time right up there with antibiotics vaccines have been keeping humans alive ever since an english country dr edward jenner inoculated an eight year old boy named james phipps with cowpox virus in seventeen ninety eighty six but now two hundred twenty five years later there is a growing movement against arguably the single most important medical breakthrough in all of human history and people people are beginning to needlessly die all over again at the anti vaccination movement continues to grow these desks would be just the beginning just the tip of the death iceberg preventable pandemics mix will once more ravage the human population and that's why this week i'm thrown out the most important episode of time. Suck thus far. If you don't believe in vaccinations please. I just listened to the sec lesson listening entirety. I don't think you're stupid. Doctors injecting needle after natal into yourself or into your kids. I really don't and i think your concern comes from a fantastic responsible place but after a ton of research housing is very very important feed. Let this play to the end. If you doubt my info check out the very thorough episode notes via the time suck after the time suck website. Click the many many links read more for yourself. Make sure i'm not bullshitting you and if if you still disagree sending a message to bojangles time suck podcasts dot com just sending a message without links to your information and expect me to change my mind social media media now provides the world with far more on referenced opinions unresearched opinions presented as fact and anyone has ever needed and i blame that phenomenon for what seems used to be a recent growth of paranoia concerning vaccinations the anti vaccination movement it's interesting association with autism and the history of vaccinations and contagious disease. He's passionately explored and explained today on for the love of nimrod. Please take this shit seriously edition of time. Suck yeah yeah <music>. This is michael mcdonald and you're listening to time suck happy monday meet sack some. Dan cummins the suck master the master sucker the nanny appeal appeal fucker. You're listening time. Suck held a nimrod lusa fina bojangles trip lamb hale to you beautiful bastard back in the suck dungeon quarterlane the reverend dr joe paisley mission control queen issac lenzi wearing headphones at her desk so <hes> you know she can't hear me. <hes> script keepers act flannery daydream about cigarettes. He stopped smoking couple of months ago. He's been doing amazing summer intern sophie facts sorceress evans just left the office after the last day of her for summer internship. I miss her already. We all miss her. <hes> team here are huge fans. The smart funny curious young meat sack get ready. World sees going to fuck shit up the best possible ways donate in twenty hundred dollars this month to the impulse youth arts organization a drum-and-bugle corps based at park california. Their goal is to help kids learn not just how to play an instrument but also to get some teamwork self esteem dedication to hard work hail to the space lizards for that donation possible find out more go to impulse pulse. Youth arts dot org link in the episode description. Thanks to all the time suckers who came out in orlando this past weekend record this ahead of those shows hoping when they were great i now know that the fans in charlotte and richmond or great sadness comedy zone in charlotte <hes> those shows were packed richmond was sold out people stayed. Even though there was a little little indoor rain problem heading to hollywood next shelby's hollywood thursday august twenty nine th at the comedy store queens suck also going to be there august thirtieth thirty first september first at the comedy store and hoya california queen of suck at those shows just outside of san diego's gay goes well more days coming up in chicago chicago chicago tally hall coming up fast phoenix indianapolis west palm beach tampa and more find those dates incomings dot tv ticket links in the episode description. Be sure and check out the times like university merged collection. If you haven't already school science and history criminology wackadoo algae selma coal pets eagles on a hot mother's day hoodies moving his love seeing all the cool swag out there hail access apparel now it's time we went through that pretty fast time to get into one of the most important topics we've covered on time so far vaccinations. Let's address several anti vaccination arguments. Hopefully put some the fears that many well-intentioned carrying parents have to rest about their kids receiving vaccinations such vaccinations leading to autism the only diseases. I don't want to be vaccinated against or anything. Lusa fina wants to give me you know what i mean. <hes> feel anything. <hes> you know i'd catch we'll be worth it. Hey lindsey. I mean hell lose. Athena funny lenzi lose avena sound pretty similar. Maybe the psychologists have something to say about that. Who incidence get into it before we get into the deadliest time so timeline yet may not be the serial killer suck with holy shit lot of death in today's episode. Let's start by figuring out what a vaccine even is. Vaccines are brain damaging mind-control elixirs. I developed by the rothschilds to collectively lower the i q of humankind to make it easier for the free masons the knights templars flers another luminosity run organizations to manipulate and control of the earth's poor make vast amounts of wealth ought to swear to the working class and then use that ill-gotten wealth to get away with the systematic and satanic molestations sacrifice as of goal children no forgot for secondary that i was trying to present actual podcast and not sending a direct message alex jones or david ike what is vaccine for real vaccine is biological preparation that improves immunity to a particular disease. It typically contains an agent that it resembles a disease causing microorganism and is in fact often made from weakened or killed forms of that microbe. It's toxins or one of its surface proteins. This agent stimulates the body's immune system to recognize the agents foreign destroy it then remember it so that the immune system can more easily recognize and destroy any of those microorganisms that it later later encounters but our bodies it really is beyond amazing what they do and are capable of to try and keep us alive and well vaccines when they work correctly. Prepare your body to fight off a dangerous potentially tensely fatal invader by attacking it with similar but much weaker foreign invader. It's like if you never been in a fight. Some tough guy was coming in your town like in week to beat your ass probably gonna get your ass be but if you prepare for the fight beaten up <hes> you know several kids a day for a whole whole week leading up to the tough guy match kids who are pretty tough tougher kids but also small and weak enough for you to confidently whoop you might be able to handle it yourself against grown ass man because now you have some battle experience yeah yeah those oh fuck oops was a tough kid asses that makes sense. I feel like it didn't. It's probably very confusing unnecessary. I think my initial definition was actually just fine on effective forget about the kids safe and effective vaccine can take your odds of catching a highly communicable disease in your area down from over ninety five percent like over ninety five percent chance of being infected to down to like a two to three percent chance of being infected also if you've been vaccinated and still get at six highly unlikely experienced the full severity of the symptoms. Maybe get a bunch of gas. It was a mild diarrhea instead of shitting yourself to death. That's pretty cool. Additional benefit put me personally. I don't love gas but i do like having guests more than myself to death. That's just me part of what makes vaccines effective is is a is a concept called her immunity. Herd immunity is all about beta sheet of those kids. Packs are unruly children. Forget about i'm done with the krill herd immunity occurs when so many people are vaccinated against a certain disease that the germs can't travel as easily from person to person and the entire community the entire herd is less likely to get the disease that is unity means that even people in a group who don't get vaccinated. We'll have some protection from getting sick. Cause disease won't spread to them or if a person does get sick. There's less chance of an outbreak because it's harder for the disease spread to more people make sense the more contagious diseases the higher percentage you need of accident of people for her immunity to be effective to achieve a herd immunity against measles for example ninety three to ninety. Five percent of the people in a community have to be vaccinated to become an epidemic or pandemic. A disease needs to spread you. A whole bunch of meat sex heard community prevents that like if one person gets it but then the virus can effectively jumped to anyone else in the immediate vicinity that virus sties even though technically viruses don't even classified as alive to begin with but tomato tomato. I like to pretend the viruses are very alive and sentient and total assholes they have names like ned clifford and they have come overs wispy mustaches greasy skin shifty. I will clammy palms sketchy. Little virus. Assholes need a host organism cells to replicate or reproduce to stay alive. They can't live long outside. Their hosts and the virus can't find a new host once their host dies. I want to get sneezed out onto the ground or whatever that microscopic asshole die so fuck you dirty tiny ned you and your sweaty clammy virus poems <hes> think of preventing preventing viruses ability to sprint in terms of stopping force fire this is this is a my herd immunity analogy the viruses of the fire town or city full of humans of the trees the the forest and vaccines the flame retardant that firefighters can spray down the trees with and humans who haven't been vaccinated trees. They're just looking super dry right. They have been sprayed. They're ready to light the fuck up like a roman candle trees to get the you know <hes> fiber nice and hot and helped bounce out to other trees with a higher percentage of trees to spray down trees. The can't catch on fire. The heart is for the fire to spread that just makes sense and the quicker. The fire is going to burn out hailed him. I like that analogy. I feel like you did a good job with our. I feel like that was way better than the kids. I feel like i'm back to even now on like analogy batting average herd immunity. This is why the medical and scientific community the overwhelming majority of people who possess that's a firm understanding of how vaccines work get worked up in a little little angry about the anti vaccination movement. Someone choosing not to vaccinate their children isn't just making a decision that could potentially affect affect their family. They're making a decision that could potentially affect the entire herd community. If enough people in the population vaccinated the disease starts to spread a lot quicker now infants pregnant women other individuals who immune systems may be compromised due to some auto immune disease or whatever right. Maybe people aren't eligible to receive vaccines for whatever reason he's now. They're also have much much much higher odds to be exposed to this disease. How much higher odds to dine if enough people are immunized the disease just perpetually salih also hovers around keeps infection people over and over again and if since vaccinations don't everyone who gets them from getting sick if an epidemic breaks out some people who did get vaccinated will get sick and will die because the disease spread and made it to them because others did not get vaccinated. This is another reason. Many people including myself are worried about this issue. I don't want my kids dine as a direct result of a choice that you made for your kids. I think it's a fair concern. It feels very fair. <hes> a big big question for many in the anti vacs world is wipe out diseases through vaccinating enough of the population. Does that mean we can just stop getting immunized. Why are we still getting these vaccinations. It does mean that that we can get stopped if we can't stop getting certain vaccinations and we have. That's exactly what happened with smallpox routine vaccination for that disease in the u._s. It went away nine hundred seventy two. The same year was declared eradicated in the u._s. So we're not still getting vaccinations for diseases. We don't have to worry about the last known case of smallpox infected human dean. <hes> in the world happened nineteen seventy seven in somalia and in the world health organization declared the disease globally routed in one thousand nine hundred a quick scary read radon smallpox. The virus does still exist but only in two laboratories that we know of samples of the virus are held in the lab siberia and also the c._d._c. the centers for disease. He's control in atlanta. Why well feels a little cold war to me but also it's just <hes> so i if this is the pop up again like if there was a bioterrorism attack vaccines would need to be quickly distributed for it possibly hundreds of millions of deaths. We'd something to study this disease. That's why they theoretically keep these. In these places men possibility of bioterro- terrorism another reason vaccines are so important. I mean pretty scary the theoretically if someone could get a hold of let's say those viruses those labs holy shit they could wreak ungodly amount of havoc on the world's population of there was vaccinations nother b question. The antibac- side of the aisle is why are doctors still recommending that babies be vaccinated for diseases. No one in united states like polio which the c._d._c. recommends you have your child vaccinated against between one and two months old and here's the answer c._d._c. Scientists hate your fucking baby. Maybe wakeup sheep all the cds employed by nothing but evil baby hating lizard goblets. There is no vaccine against polio cheerful. Is that real. They're pumping your baby full of agenda twenty one sterilization serum k. alter mind-control potions. Okay pull your head at a local. Sam's ass wakeup smell the new world order now. Here's the the real answer just because disease has been eradicated in the u._s. Like polio that doesn't mean it's been eradicated in nations that people who either live or travel to and from the u._s. regular you know like <hes> everywhere it's possible for travellers to bring the disease back home and it's a disease makes it to a home where there's no herd immunity well then. There's gonna be a fucking virus forest fire to use that analogy again so hopefully that all makes sense. I got to be on. It wasn't easy remembered what to do. In the cloaks last bohemian grow child sacrifice hannah gathering gathering meeting told me to make up and tell you it is sh hey joe. Can you get that part out the part where i was just being honest for the first time who i really am yeah yeah. I don't want people to know what my real intentions engines are. Okay now. Let's address what seems to be the main trigger word in the anti vaccination debate hangnails yep. We're gonna go. They're right. I don't care fucking you. Send your messages. Send your emails get pissed. I don't care. I'm gonna talk about hangnails. Most people who are upset vaccinations are upset because there's a lot of pseudoscience out there lincoln vaccinations nations to hangnails and people understandably like why should i an occupying my kid against the disease and my mom when that inoculation is going to get my sweet baby. Tim tam pretty a painful. You're taking hangnail and of course that's nonsense. Autism autism is the main buzzword in the antibac- nation debate autism unlinked to vaccinations time time and time again <hes> by various celebrities most notably <hes> the main one being jenny mccarthy can become the face of the antitax movement. <hes> jenny mccarthy has an autistic son jenny. I used to have a poster of jenny mccarthy on my college dorm room. Wall hailu safina mccarthy was one of the most attractive women on this planet still think think she's physically stunning but not attractive to me at only truly because the words that come out of her mouth genesee former mtv game show host model actress nineteen ninety-three playboy playmate of the year one time mary to superstar actor jim carey himself. He's also come out as anti vaccine in may two thousand seven mccarthy announced that her son evan was diagnosed with autism in two thousand five she working as a spokesperson for talk for talk about curing autism in two thousand seven enter book louder than words. A mother's journey and healing autism was published in september of that year so great intentions a concerned parent. I love that part about her. <hes> very concerned mother worried about her son. Also somebody who maybe isn't great at critical thinking. Maybe maybe isn't great you know looking at science versus pseudoscience two thousand eight she appeared on larry king live special which was dedicated to the subject of vaccines and autism she claimed at vaccines were responsible for her son's autism which is unfortunate because she doesn't have any science to back up that claim because there isn't any we're gonna get into that in depth late in pockets jenny saying that <hes> saying that and saying that other <hes> other antibac- things over the years is really unfortunate because her stances dances led to a lot of parents not vaccinating their kids and that is why a lot of people really hate jenny mccarthy there was actually a website called jenny mccarthy body count dot com instead of catered to how much blood the website hosts thinks is on jenny's hands and she is at least partially responsible for people dying of contagious diseases because they chose to not get vaccinated based on her promotion of anti vaccination ideology and i gotta say they're now wrong. In my opinion later in two thousand fourteen did say i'm not anti vaccine. I'm in this grey zone of. You've i think everyone should be aware and educate yourself and ask questions okay and if your kid is having a problem ask your doctor for an alternative way of doing the shots <hes> nothing is ever linked a way of doing shots autism interesting to me how she asked others to educate themselves while in the same sense promoting a a fear of dr administrator administered administered immunizations that has no basis in anything document. Johnny also wants said if you ask this kills me. She said you asked parent of an autistic child child. If they want the measles or autism we will stand in line for the fucking measles fucking what jenny seems to have forgotten that before the measles vaccine the market nine hundred sixty three hundreds of kids died from measles every year in the u._s. Shells doesn't understand that <hes> globally it still one of the leading cause of infant mortality weird that she wants to stand in line for something that for sure kills instead of standing in line for something that for sure does not almost doesn't know the fact. She's talking about a here's another fun quote from jamie. Mccarthy is the vaccine companies are not listening to us. It's their fucking diseases. Were coming back. They're making a product that shit. If you give us a safe vaccine gene will use it. It shouldn't be polio versus autism. It's not not poliovirus zonta zim. There's literally no link between the two. Some studies did attempt to link to the two and i will go over the most often cited antibac- study soon and show how shady and terrible <hes> that study was mccarthy also claimed in two thousand thousand eight secured her son of autism with the help of gluten free diet so that should put a little kind of chink in the armor of her medical credibility. You know what i mean. I guess to be fair. You know i can't argue it. I mean there's never been a formal study done regarding curing autism by taking away gluten so so in that sense may maybe works. I mean there's never been a study regarding carrying autism by witchcraft. Maybe that works to <hes> no one's tried carrying autism ah holding a large crystal in each hand and doing some yoga poses at the top of mount shasta so maybe that works <hes> no one strike here in autism by eating a thousand pieces seizes recipes a day for two years in a row. Maybe that works about invented some new candidate rising sea like rice pisces. Maybe slow roast in your generals and crock pot the screaming. The word autism works just how maybe that works that. There's never been a study done on that exact thing so you know there's a lot of studies. That haven't been done regarding what could work. Maybe all the sarcasm. I was just thrown out works. More and more politicians mostly the state legislature level. We'll have also begun to publicly oppose any legislature that hint mandatory vaccinations. Some of them have also expressed concern that various chemicals president vaccinations behind a recent rise in autism. Even though we'll address that to you know science behind kentucky governor matt bevin prominent politician who is adamantly against mandatory vaccinations arguing that would be an assault against personal freedom and look. I'm a pro freedom kind of guy. I enjoy it. I don't like being told what to do at all hate it in fact the point that zombie apocalypse actually sounds kinda funding wanted me moments. I'm sure get eaten by zombies with suck but having no government around getting to shoot zombies zombie heads that sounds exciting and fun however in more rational moments. I i realize laws keep me and my family safe. I rationally understand freedom also has limits and i think should your freedom allow. Oh you to endanger the lives of your neighbors and other kids at your children's schools like here's the thing with the whole personal freedom infringement argument antibac- to make concerning mandatory vaccinations were already already not free to do whatever we want now without possible legal consequences as a parent. You're already not free to beat your kids within an inch of their lives might might be fun to fantasize about sometimes but it's also legal so why should you be free to carelessly risk the lives of other people's kids. If you have a solid logical answer for that question by the way i love to hear it but when the answer it you have to acknowledge me to take it seriously. They were already not free to do whatever we want. You're not free to let your kids drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes when they're ten years old. The governor has already already says you can't do that legally. You'll get in trouble if we catch you doing that thing. We told you not to do so the whole slippery slope argument of well. We let the government tell us you know that we have to vaccinate our kids kids. That's just gonna open the gates to them. Tell us to do all kinds of other stuff and take away all kinds of freedoms that gates already fucking open. It's always been open. The government all all already regulates freedom. They already regularly parental rights. It's a nonsense argument or let's address. Another concern of the anti vaccination crowd is very direct proven link between vaccinations and increase rates of autism over the last decades no in a word no and autism rates may not even be rising more on that later has an interesting food for thought there <hes> two studies have incited by those claiming that the m._r. vaccine causes autism beau studies critically flawed will discuss one of these studies. The most often cited one in-depth soon before we do. I answer the question what even is autism well. Frankly autism is tough to define loosely to mental disorder the president from early childhood which causes people to have considerable difficulties and socializing communicating forming relationships. It affects people differently. It affects some people much much more severely than others. How long has it been around. Autism did not show up until nineteen eighty-one that you're five kids in the u._s. Were diagnosed having to them. Just four years later after a five hundred percent rise in back nations over seven hundred thousand kids were diagnosed as autistic by nineteen ninety after several new vaccinations have been introduced roughly flee ten million kids in the u._s. Alone were labeled autistic. Now that is terrifying exponential acceleration and a startling correlation. I will admit that by two thousand after seven even more vaccinations hit the market a preposterous fifty three million americans were autistic and the most recent statue the scariest of all in two thousand sixteen four hundred million. The americans were diagnosed with autism. We fucking crazy because the entire population of the u._s. was three hundred and twenty three million in two thousand sixteen and that's why people are worried. I get that i mean you have to admit it's concerning. There's more people with autism than than there are even people alive right now and obviously i'm being absurd but that's how some people seem to portray recent and rising autism <hes> if they're even arise and again i'll explain that surely the estimates that one in sixty eight children u. S. curly have autism one in forty two boys one one eight hundred eighty nine girls wind autism really i show up. We have absolutely no idea we do know that. Autism was first used as a diagnostic term in a in a very very specific way in nineteen forty-three dr leo kanner used the term to diagnose the social and emotional disorder previous observations of patients with symptoms of autism lead psychiatrist's diagnosis or or diana a diagnosis cutting diagnosis there we go of schizophrenia and prior to that people suffering from variety of mental disorders were called things like feeble minded. We're just like weird or whatever you remember. When people talk about autism being a new phenomenon that's not necessarily true because the diagnosing psychiatric illnesses and the diagnosis of cognitive disabilities disabilities is a very new phenomena for all we know autism has always been there. We just never had the term for it or the knowledge of how to correctly identify it until recently i mean we did suck you know early on about you know early mental mental health facilities where people could get thrown in for having different political opinions in the study of mental illness and the study of cognitive visibility very very new going back to my vague definition of autism for a moment a big problem with diagnosing autism is that there are so many different kinds of it. Autism is complex. It's not even technically called autism anymore. It's autism spectrum disorder autism encompasses entire spectrum of disorders orders. It's really an umbrella term for someone suffering from you know social communication difficulties. Someone who <hes> usually has unusually narrow interests who usually displays play strong repetitive behavior sometimes some of these symptoms has what is known as asperger's syndrome which does land along the spectrum the key difference between autism asperger's asperger's syndrome <hes> since i brought that up is an autism a child will learn how to talk a very late stage often say no words before the age of to the child may have learning difficulties with below oh average i._q. Developmental delay in contrast in asperger's syndrome children will talk on time and have no learning difficulties although they will still find socializing very challenging often be obsessed with narrow kind of topics of interest. I mean do you see how difficult it must be to decide. What causes something when that something is so tricky to even define something that expresses itself in so many different ways i mean autism is similar to cancer that way what causes cancer well. It depends on what kind of talking about this letter different kinds of cancer cancer takes in different forms some more debilitating than others similar with autism. Some people who are artistic love great jobs get married raise kids lead happy and productive lives others will only full-time care their whole lives and never be able to function independently so it causes autism. We don't fuck no. That's the real answer. Lot of research is being done undefined out research suggested autism develops from a combination of genetic and non genetic or environmental influences that can increase the risk a child will develop autism however increased priest risk is not the same as cause for example some gene changes associated with autism can also be found people who don't have the disorder similarly not everyone exposed to environmental risk factor actor for autism will develop a disorder in fact most will not research tells us that autism tends to run in families changes insert genes increase the risk that a child will develop autism. If a parent keren carries one or more of these gene changes they may get passed to a child even if the parent does not have autism other times genetic changes arise spontaneously and early embryo or or the sperm and or egged combined to create the embryo again the majority of these gene changes do not cause autism by themselves. They increased risk for the disorder advanced parental age age appears to be a factor and being born with autism having your first child when both you and your partner over the age of thirty five makes you three times as likely to have an autistic child then someone between <hes> between the ages of twenty thousand four also having a second child less than a year i've for having the previous child increases the second child risk of developing autism maternal illness during pregnancy see extreme prematurity very low birth weight certain difficulties during birth contribute particularly those involving periods of oxygen deprivation to the baby's brain. These factors may contribute autism mothers exposed to high levels of pesticides and air pollution. Maybe a higher risk of having a child with autism spectrum disorder small of a growing body of research. She just autism risk is less among children whose mothers took prenatal vitamins specifically containing folic acid in the months before and after conception mercury exposure however <hes> will often link to autism in court of public opinion has not been linked autism properly conducted study. Basically there's still a lot to be learned when it comes to understanding autism or autistic spectrum disorder what science has determined so far though autism and vaccines do not appear to be related at all at all think about how hard this link would be to prove if you're not gonna give accident because you're worthy vaccinations cause autism because vaccinations put foreign substances like mercury aluminum. You know the harmful in large quantities in your body then you should also stop breathing and eating breathing and eating put substances like mercury in your body fucking walking around on the earth but these substances in your body you now. Let's see what i'm driving. Even if mercury didcot autism which does vaccinations are not the place where even get most of mercury mostly just comes through just living our lives okay now back and i'll i'll talk about that a little bit more to now back to us. Foreign disappointed rise of autism are rates of autism increasing. This is a real fear among among certain anti boxers the rise in autism has coincided directly with the rise in vaccines. Well first off by correlation does not imply causation. Two things happening happening to same time doesn't mean that one thing happening is affecting the other thing or causing the other thing to happen for example. Let's say you started doing jumping jacks and two thousand eighteen around the same time young american singer songwriter billy. I started to become super famous and as you start doing more more jump jacks each day billy. I became more and more more famous. That doesn't mean the you're jumping. Jacks caused billy is to become famous. You delusional fucking maniac then there's a debate over whether or autism is actually increasing at all it might not be something it's just being diagnosed more often. The numbers vary widely from country to country state regarding a possible rise in autism. Here's an example of what i'm talking about. The prevalence of autism increase in the state of california from point six cases per one thousand births nine seventy five to four point one cases <unk> per one thousand births in two thousand seven or did it this spike in cases occurred almost entirely in affluent areas less affluent areas did not see this jump so oh were there more autistic kids being born or was there just a growing awareness of the disorder amongst doctors and affluent areas which influenced the chances of a child receiving an autistic diagnosis. Some people think that changing diagnostics have led to a larger rising autism in that the disorder is not becoming more prevalent. The american psychiatric association changes diagnostic criteria for autism with d._s._m. Three published nineteen eighty after the diagnostic criteria became more specific autism was diagnosed much more frequently. People had a fuck word for it now right or you know why they had the word before but now they have you know an easy way to identify with this word means. There's more doctors became familiar with the new <unk> criteria. The diagnosis became of course more prevalent so again when people point to a recent rise in autism that might not be true. There may just be a rise in diagnosed autism. Do you sell complicated. All this is and the more complicated it is the harder to prove a cause and effect relationship between autism and vaccines the frankly between autism and any other single costs now. Let's look at those studies. I mentioned that did seem to prove a link between autism vaccine studies that are frequently used as proof by the anti anti vaccine crowd improved their arguments or backed up by science the whole m._r. vaccine controversy began with the publication of a research paper in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight the the paper written by a group led by andrew wakefield published in a respected british. Medical journal called the lancet. The paper reported on twelve children with developmental disorders in the royal free hospital in hampstead in north london. The parents or physicians of eight of the children were said to have linked the behavioral symptoms with the m._r. Vaccination the parents reportedly you said the symptoms of autism has set in within days of their children's vaccinations at fourteen months old q- panic meanwhile in america ferocious anti anti vaccine movement took off after wakefield toured u._s. Autism conferences including speaking at a nineteen ninety eight conference for defeat autism now and in november number two thousand appeared on the c._b._s. Network sixty minutes program linking m._m._r. with what he called quote in pedantic of autism q. massive massive panic this one mother fucker singlehandedly kicked off the current anti vaccination scare or vaccinations. Give kids autism kind head of movement then jenny mccarthy and other celebrities took his faulty research credit to the masses and well here. We are now here. I am covering the topic. Why do i call wait till the motherfucker. Why do u._s._a.'s research was faulty because i met him in a bar. One time in two thousand ten is quote washington now. Look at it. Check this out. I had quarters on the side of the pool table so i you know i could play next. That's how you do and i was grabbing a beer and he just ignore them. Ignore the quarters and sort of racquetball's. You know like he was gonna play and i was like april. My quarter stood on saturday table was fuck. I had next. I had next next and he was like oh sorry. I didn't see my apologized. Go ahead and play my bad bad and you might think what's wrong with that. You know he did the right thing that well no. You didn't whose way he said it. That made the whole fucked up. It was like his tone. He was like own-goal in line and i swore to myself one day i would slander that mother fucker talked that's crazy. That's not true. No i don't like wakefield because wakefield was later caught up in a massive scandal that revealed he was conspiring with a lawyer named richard barr who hope to raise a class action lawsuit against the drug companies that made the vaccine bar high hired wakefield to conduct clinical scientific research that would support his class action suit unbelievable wait for was a hired gun no use to scientifically provide bullshit scientific findings due to help win a bullshit lawsuit. This is why. I don't don't like this guy would always became public. Knowledge study wakefield conducted was retracted from the lancet and from july two thousand seven thousand and ten til subjected to the longest ever professional misconduct act hearing by the u._k.'s general medical council also proven the wakefield manipulated the data and has nine hundred ninety eight paper linking the vaccine to autism all right. This is very unethical. May of two thousand ten wait till was found guilty by the general medical council of serious professional misconduct banned from the medical register meaning. He can no longer practice practice medicine in the u._k. Sadly he can't keep running his stupid fucking mouth and stoking anti vacs fires. This dangerous false information quick piece of shit is now based in austin texas. He's double down on the same anti vaccine bullshit that cost him his medical license in the first place. Two thousand seventeen wakil was directly linked to an outbreak of measles among the somalia american community in minnesota and would seventy nine people were infected the vast majority of which were children at the age of ten. This came just after he visited shared his views with the vaccination rate among that group minneapolis fell from ninety two percent to forty percents. He scared them that bad. The outbreak was the largest measles outbreak in minnesota since one thousand nine hundred one four hundred sixty people became ill and three people died wakefield waco also been associated with the drop off in vaccination rates in the area of texas where he lifts all right now. There was a lot of info but i felt like it was all necessary. We now know what a vaccine is why we need them. We now addressed a lot of concerns of the anti vaccination community. I mean i mean there's there's way too many of them here. I know not all of them are are linked with autism but a lot of them are linked with autism. <hes> will address a few more concerns when i wrote this episode so after today's time line we've also laid out how complex autism spectrum disorder is how is still not fully understood <hes> yeah it was actually just talking right before recording this about how asperger's as we mentioned is not even that's not even diagnosed anymore. That's just a recent change. It's still a commonly used. Term is all changing so fast so very hard word to figure out you know one single factor that is causing this thing. We still don't really understand very well okay now. Let's let's really hammer home exactly why we need vaccinations death so much infectious disease death death. We've only recently been able to fight back against using modern antibiotics other medical treatments and vaccinations when somebody's longer threat. We tend to forget about it. Meets acts have short memories and a lot of ways which is part of why history does repeat itself over and over. We have an anti iraq's movement vaccinations have been successful. Isn't that ironic. If vaccinations hadn't been invented they didn't work. There would be no opposition to them. There would just be he's god figure out how to keep itself from constantly dined smallpox wiped out half my fucking family. I don't want to lose a few relatives. I have left. Please help us. I saw things used to be then doctors. There's answer people's cries for help and doctors are being blamed for autism in so many ways. We are fucking crazy logical species <hes> let's fight against illogical behavior by going through some important numbers and dates remind ourselves why vaccines were creating the first place. Let's take a stroll through what life was like before. Vaccines spoiler alert wasn't good look look at the history of infectious diseases fucking obliterate nece time and time again today's times timeline right after it word from today's sponsor. Today's time silk is brought. Did you buy the belle gunness norwegian massage parlor or norwegian massage. It's a lot like a swedish massage except the masseuse goes above and beyond just miss massaging you create a soothing soothing relaxing zen like environment by constantly speaking in a in a just calming thick norwegian accent oofta hang giving it feeling the tension in your mouth. Keep an appraiser under hamstrings and your tax and your back who aki pushed into need eden tweak in the league so get that super relaxing massage use the code strict time to get a free happy ending legally. I can define what a happy ending means but if you choose it you may hear put into hanging hosie. Get free to our massage with the free happy ending. If you bring in one thousand dollars in cash to prove that you can pay for future massages. Also you have to come alone with the cash to get that deal and you can't open your own car and you can't have anyone you know drop you. You often their car. You can't notify anyone you've ever heard of bill gunness norwegian massage parlor parlour. If you leave your phone at home when you go to only bring cash do not drive your own and vehicle do not take an uber. Please walk properly at night. Maybe kind of takes and alternate routes take public transportation. When you bring it leads a thousand dollars unmarked bills to to claim your free massage rooftop you for sure won't get killed when you do that and that of course is not sponsor. It was just a way for me to do a little voice. I like the bill gonna suck time. Suck is brought to you today by audible. Audible is where inspiring voices and compelling stories open listeners up to new experiences inches and ways of thinking audible delivers bestsellers business self-improvement memoirs and more all professionally narrated by actress authors and motivational superstars like like rachel hollis and mel robbins and now as an audible member. You'll get more than ever before get three titles every month. One audiobook plus to audible originals the you can't hear anywhere else you also get unlimited access to more than one hundred audio guided fitness programs plus free access to the new york times wall street journal and washington post with their app. You can access audible anytime on any device. It will always pick up where you left off off. Also offers free and easy audiobook exchanges just credits that roll over for a year and a library. You keep forever. Even if you cancel. I love audibles vast library titles. I know a lot of creative types. Listen to time suck. I highly recommend big magic creative living beyond fear by elizabeth gilbert just over five hours of in spur ration- i listen when i first started time suck and really put me in integrate head space to create something for the love of creating and not create something where money is the is the main motivation. Put some magic into your art. Give it a listen star listed with a thirty day audible trial and get your first audiobook plus to audible originals for free visit audible audible dot com slash time suck or text time suck to five hundred dash five hundred five zero zero dash five zero zero. That's a u. d. I b. l. e. dot com slash time suck or tex time suck to five hundred dash five hundred now. Let's head in today's disease. He's real time suck timeline to explore not just some of the disease that wipes out preposterous amount of music. Some of the disease is but also explore the history of vaccinations shrimp on those boots soldier where martin down a time southern timelines the earliest recorded pandemic happened during the peloponnesian war four thirty b._c. After disease pass through libya european egypt across the athenian walls as the spartans laid siege up to two thirds of the local population died the centers included fever thirst. I bloody throat and tongue red skin lesions. The disease suspected to have been typhoid fever weaken. The athenians significantly was a significant factor in their defeat by the spartans. Now there is a vaccine for typhoid fever. Thank god i have very low interest and having a bloody tongue or skin lesions. I don't enjoy. I don't if you do the whatever it's your thing. <hes> the anti plague one sixty five was possibly an early appearance of smallpox to begin with the huns in infected the germans who pastored the romans then the returning troops spread throughout the roman empire symptoms included fever sore throat diarrhea and if the patient lived long enough pus filled sores no make you stop. I like pus filled sores even less. I like lesions. I don't care how many pro plus people that pisses off. This play continued until about one a._d._c. Claiming never marcus aurelius is one of his victims smallpox was later as we learned earlier successfully eradicated through vaccinations that led to affect her immunity against a shitty disease damn you tiny assholes ned and clifford union wispy virus mustaches now we have <hes> named after the first victim the christian bishop of carthage the ciprian ciprian plague of two fifty entailed diarrhea vomiting throat ulcers fever gangrenous hands and feet what no thank you very much. That's near having a real home dinger of week bleeding sores and your throat and a fever and constantly shifting yourself and your hands and feet or rotting off of your body while you're still alive if my hands and feet start to rot off my body while i'm still alive eimskip times for a week right. I know nice sound like you don't have the right priorities but if my hands start to rot off. I'm gonna take a little break from doing this. You know i'm gonna take a little sick vacation due to a terrible case of the woopsie daisies. He's the cause to be smallpox plague of this horrible flinton. There is now a vaccine for babani plague jus- smallpox. I appear in egypt. The justinian plague spreads you palestine and the bison empire and five forty one c. then throughout the mediterranean the play chain because of the empire squelching emperor justinian west indians plans to bring the roman empire back together and causing massive economic struggle people all across the empire report of the play being a real bummer. It's also credited with creating an apocalyptic atmosphere that spurred the rapid spread of christianity recurrence over the plague. The next two centuries eventually killed about fifty million people twenty six percent of the world's population of the time. I'm the bubonic plague that bad boy did a whole suck on was responsible for this monster around one thousand ce chinese employed smallpox inoculation or varela uh-huh variation fairly early as one thousand seats it was practiced in africa and turkey as well before it spread to europe and the americas variation was deliberate inoculation asian of an uninfected person with the smallpox virus usually via dried smallpox scabs being blown into the nose of an individual who then contracted a mild wild form of the disease upon recovery the individual was immune to smallpox between one to two percent of those very related died compared to thirty percent who died when they contracted the disease naturally men the chinese way ahead of their time with medicine and the invented vaccine before it was called a vaccine got. It isn't china's sucks. Gotta do more the asian sex. I don't know nearly enough about asian histories. I'd like to though it had been around for ages. Leprosy grew into a pandemic in europe in the middle ages resulted in the building of numerous leprosy focused focused hospitals to accommodate the vast number of victims eleventh century see a slow developing bacterial disease that causes sores and deformities leprosy was believed to be a punishment from god. This belief led to victims being judged ostracize so that's super fun skins right now if your body science has evolved to the point where doctors can help you and everyone everyone thinks you deserve it. If you didn't want your notes arrive your face. You shouldn't have come to your neighbor's wife. Has i'm a kaya now. Notice hansen's disease leprosy still afflicts tens of thousands of people year and can be fatal if treated with antibiotics most americans who do catch leprosy now very rare catch from armadillos. I shit you not where's that what jesse donor told me that. I thought he was fucking with me. Until i looked up looked into damn he are medina lepers charts. You armadillo lepers. <hes> vaccine for leprosy is still being worked on since diseases still killing meets acts around the world via start feeling like you have enough status in your life right now do a google image search for hanson disease. He's victims holy shit and i'll likelihood <hes>. It'll be way harder for you to feel sorry for yourself. After seeing what these poor curse people go through. I can pick them right now. They're like burned into my brain. These these pictures people with <hes> parts of their face literally rotted off fingers gone sometimes entire hands-on ears gone sometimes is ride it out still alive not trying to be callous. Also i say this but some of these people who are somehow still alive they looked like zombies and the walking debt but they have no makeup on may nimrod guide you scientists and killing those disgusting disgusting little leprosy bacteria motherfuckers causing so many people so much pain are responsible for the death of one third of the world population is second appearance of the black plague possibly starts in asia asia and moves west and caravans in the mid fourteenth century. We now have a plague vaccine. Can you imagine if a disease killed a third of the world's population now or even a quarter or fifth fifth. Even ten percent ten percent would be seven hundred and fifty three million people dead that that'll be everyone who lives in united states canada mexico oh the u._k. Sweden australia new zealand germany france ireland combined all dead and if a disease killed the same percentage urged vanek plague over three times that many debt infectious these men the undisputed heavyweight champion of the death world now. Let's jump to the fifteenth century free no more or death following the arrival of the spanish in the caribbean and fourteen ninety two european passed along disease smallpox measles plagued native populations who had no natural natural resistance. It decimated them if only vaccines had existed for american indians the world map. I look a lot differently today. This new disease kills ninety percent up to ninety percent of the native population america's. If there was a written history that written history would be far darker than even like the black death in europe. There is no vaccine for measles the controversial m._r. vaccine as a vaccine for measles that will cover later time in fifteen seventy eight a whooping cough epidemic. It's paris. We now have a vaccine for whooping cough before the whooping cough vaccine was recommended for all infants about eight thousand people in united states died each year mostly babies so not fun in in sixteen thirteen diphtheria had spain it was known as el annual dealers ghetto the year of the strangulations fucking terrible year. How's does your your last year. Vow not good a lot of strangulations way more strangulations asshole before going into the year <hes> we don't have reliable death toll for numbers for this epidemic but with much more recent numbers the united states recorded two hundred six thousand cases of diphtheria in nineteen twenty one over fifteen thousand dead before there was treatment for diptheria up to half after people who got the disease did die from it. They're now currently four different vaccines that treat diphtheria on sixteen thirty-three smallpox epidemic kits massachusetts affecting sellers was an american indians among the casualties were twenty sellers from the mayflower including their only physician. They know how much i used to suck when you had one doctor your entire town or colony than an etiquettes and the doctor dies. You can't go anywhere else. There's nobody else now. You have to rely on someone even less qualified than the guy who's main medical treatment involved whiskey chop chop faulk life before urgent care go ahead. Go ahead and build a time machine. I'm not gonna. I'm not getting it not get in unless it's only set for the future. No thank you. I'm heading back to the land of no convenient medical treatment when chinese emperor few <hes> fu-lin dies of smallpox in sixteen sixty one his third son becomes emperor emperor coaching or king <hes> having already survived a case of smallpox before became emperor he eventually supported inoculation and he wrote about it in a letter to his descendants writing the method has it of inauguration having been brought to light during my rain i had it used upon you my sons and daughters and my descendants and you all pass through the smallpox in the happiest possible manner in the beginning when i had it tested on one or two people some old women tax me with extravagance and spoke very strongly against inoculation the courage which i summoned up to insist on his practice has saved the lives and health of millions of men. This is an extremely important thing of which i'm very proud how fucking cool that seventeenth century <hes> emperor fighting anti vaxxers sixteen sixty one and saving lives and being aware of it man. The battle of opposing beliefs has been fought since long before for the jenny mccarthy era r._j. Mccarthy era which is not an era. Thank god <hes> that would be terrible. If we lived. During the gene mccarthy era <hes> in its second recorded appearance in sixteen sixty five to be bonded plague leads the deaths of twenty percent of london's population as human death tolls mount and mass graves appear hundreds of thousands of cats and dogs are slaughtered as the possible cause terrible place in time to be alive roughly. One five die in everyone's pets are also slaughtered ibn. Oh my god behind the shit penny pooper ginger bell local health officials were rounded up pets for slaughter. What is wrong with me even thinking i've become so numb towards historical human death yet. The detail of hundreds of thousands of cats and dogs being slaughtered. It really bothers me. Save jungles get the people to but only if there's time i i the pets i defer rabies sixteen seventy nine a french court courtier describes the effects of smallpox on the iroquois terminate the indian plague saying the smallpox desolate stem to such a degree that they think no longer of meeting nor wars but only only of bewailing the dead of whom there is already immense number so that sounds terrible queen mary the second mainland age thirty two dies in sixteen ninety four very yola hemmer hemorrhagic hemorrhagic fucked hemmer raja hemorrhagic i think i could ill feeling proud of myself. Very hemorrhagic hemorragic <unk> did it. It's terrible variation of smallpox which bleeding occurs into the pustules as well as from other body services and internally sounds a little ebola like don't like it positive my worst nightmare when it comes to infectious diseases just bleeding out from various parts of my body now thank you thomas babington macaulay would write about smallpox oxen queen mary the second in the history of england from the session from the accession of james the second writing the havoc of the plague had been far more rapid but the plague visited our shores only once or twice within living memory and the smallpox was always present filling the churchyard with corpses tormenting with constant fears all all whom it had not yet stricken leaving on those whose lives are spared the hideous traces of its power turning the babe into a changeling at which the mother shuttered and making the eyes and cheeks of the betrothed maiden maiden objects of horror to their lover toward the end of the year sixty ninety four this pestilence was more than usually severe at length the infection spread read the palace and reached young and blooming quaint yeah just killing lots of people scarring the shit out a lotta people and sixty nine charleston and philadelphia so for the first confirmed that yellow fever fever outbreaks in the american colonies the death toll them. Both of these were <hes> terribly high. Life came to nearly a standstill. A quaker in philadelphia wrote in this distemper had died six seven seven sometimes eight and a day for several weeks there being few houses. If any free of the sickness great was the fear that all flesh he saw no loftier airy countenances inches nor heard at any vein jesting to move into laughter but every face gathered heinous and many hearts were humbled and continents has fallen and sunk as such that waited every moment to be summoned to the bar and numbered to the grave. Thank god we now have a vaccine against yellow fever cotton mathur boston minister received gifts in seventeen seventeen o six of libyan born slave named own isthmus who bore a scarf from smallpox bill very elation and africa relation mathur inquired amongst other slaves and found that many had been related and thought themselves immune to the disease first chinese now the africans europeans americans little slow to come to the vaccination table masire would promote the practice in massachusetts sadly mathur himself too slow to adopt this early form of vaccinating and seventeen thirteen. A measles epidemic broke out killed his wife. His newborn twins another daughter and the family's made within a few weeks in seventeen eighteen lady. Mary wortley montagu has her son very related aided in constantinople by dr charles maitland lady montague whose husband was ambassador to turkey had been disfigured by smallpox around seventeen fifteen. She heard about variation upon her arrival in turkey was was anxious that her six-year-old son edward had the procedure and he did have the procedure and never contracted the disease himself in seventeen seventeen. She wrote to a friend. I'm going to tell you a thing that i'm sure we'll make you wish yourself here. The small pox so fatal and so general amongst us is here entirely harmless by the invention of in grafting is which is the term they give give it. There is a set of old women who make it their business to perform the operation every autumn. The old woman comes with a nutshell full of the matter of the best sort of smallpox and asks what veins as you pleased to have opened she immediately ripped open that you offer her with a large needle and put into the vein as much venom as can lie upon the head of a needle every year thousands undergo this operation. There is no example of anyone that has died in it and you may believe i'm well satisfied to the safety of the experiment. I am patriot enough to take pains to bring this useful invention into fashion in england and i should not fail to write to some of our doctors very particularly about it. I knew any one of them that i thought had virtue enough to destroy such considerable branch of the revenue vanu for the good of mankind lady montagu early vaccination pioneer early champion and how the ladies in turkey and it just like they're basically just fucking backstabbing. You people crazy man way back when smallpox rates through boston in seventeen twenty one eight hundred forty four deaths during this epidemic physician zab deal oh boylston at cotton mather's urging related two hundred and forty eight people thereby introducing relation to the americas of those related six died. The case fatality for violation was is about three percent. The disease case tally was fourteen percent much worse about nine. Hundred people left town for fear of catching the disease mazza was widely criticized for his role in promoting ventilation and primitive grenade was thrown through window of his house detached. No threatened cotton mather you dog damn you all inoculate you with this a pox thanks to you and that note was written by mudflat mccarthy great-great-great-great-great-grandfather jenny mccarthy. I don't know i don't know who the note. I do know that zab deal boylston is a great uncle of second president john adams any as quite the first name zab deal with short for that zab zebbie zab dog abinader. It's not a neighborhood tossed around a lot growing up and <hes> lady. Mary montagu brings the practice relation to england in april of seventeen twenty one where she has dr charles maitland very late her two-year-old two year old daughter lady monte you would come under considerable criticism for advocating ventilation practices slowly began to spread his ability to protect against smallpox became more certain or apparent the results whoever were sometimes fatal two to three percent of those related died of smallpox in ca- in contrast to twenty to thirty percent in england who had died after contracting smallpox naturally despite early success against the pox modern vaccinations would not hit the scene for a long long time seventeen thirty two a yellow fever epidemic struck charleston south carolina carolina starting in may run into the fall deaths occurred so frequently that the usual ringing of church bells upon a death was forbidden that is crazy so many people people dying. They stopped ringing the bells. People just like enough with bells. I get it people are dead. Try to sleep during the death bell one more time. I'm going to kill myself. Seventeen thousand five terrifying diptheria epidemics swept to new england some cases entire families died of the disease in one on new hampshire town thirty two percent of all the children living there under the age of ten died. Fuck the saddest town to live in for so many years after that. I mean mike i mean even if even if your kids didn't die imagine if a third of the kids in the in the grade school that your kids went to grade school doesn't totally back to normal until you know all of those classes you know have left the school entirely the case fatality ratio is almost forty percent no webster later wrote. It was literally the plague among children. Many families lost three or four children. Many lost tall benjamin franklin four year old son francis folder franklin dies of smallpox november twenty first seventeen thirty six rumors began to circulate claiming the boy had been inoculated franken publish denial but also advocated inoculation saying look now. That's not true but wish would've he wrote in seventeen seventeen thirty six lost one of my sons a fine boy four years old and that's so fucking said taken by the smallpox in the in the common way. I long regretted that i had not given it to him. Binocular inauguration which i mentioned for the sake of parents who omit that operation on the supposition that they should never forgive themselves if a child died under it my my example showing that the google regret maybe same either way and that therefore the safer should be chosen. How fucking wise is that. You hear what he's saying this could be. This is a common complaint amongst actors today well okay. I even like some people even if they get the whole herd immunity. They're like well. I don't want to risk my kid right now. But what he's saying is like doc. Yes there is a little bit of a risk vaccination but it's a much greater risk mathematically. If you don't get vaccinated and you're gonna regret it either way so go with the the route pick pick the path that has a statistical probability of being the best choice just logic just logic imagine choosing not to vaccinate your kid and then a contagious disease ripped through community and your kid gets taken dies and you know in no uncertain terms that your kid would still be alive if you would have acted them. That's a risk i am never gonna take seventeen forty. German physician named fried friedrich friedrich hoffmann was the first to give a clinical description of the disease that would later later come to be known as rebel german measles one dose of the vaccine. The measles vaccine is about ninety seven percent effective when it comes to preventing rubella. We should all be thankful that edward jenner was born in berkeley on may seventeenth seventeen forty nine in gloucestershire england. His role in the advancement of inoculation makes perhaps one of the most important and most forgotten heroes of history and he shares members day so make some extra cool for me. During jenner's contagious diseases we continue to ravage average the earth seventeen fifty one three thousand five hundred thirty eight die in london from smallpox in seventeen fifty seven scott physician francis home m._d. Transmits measles from infected it to patients to healthy individuals via blood demonstrating. The disease is caused by an infection infectious agent super bummer for those early patients important medical progress overall all for disease treatment and seventeen sixty eight catherine. The great of russia is inoculated by physician thomas dimsdale with relays of horses at the ready in case you go wrong and dinsdale dimsdale would need to escape. The operation was kept a secret catherine did recover successfully. The doctor didn't have to his life. I hope that dude got paid well. That's a high high pressure job. Imagine that pressure you do your job or you get killed now. Fired murdered catherine successful inoculation would encourage others to follow suit route seventeen seventy the bat edward jenner becomes interested in the idea that previous illness with a disease called cowpox could protect a person from later becoming ill with smallpox. He assumes uh-huh diseases must be related and he was right. Jenner's biographer claimed the jenner heard this folk wisdom from a milkmaid having caught cowpox from cal. She believes herself in her smooth skin safe from smallpox. Thank you milk me and thank you internet after hearing the term milkmaid for whatever reason don't judge me i imagine the milkmaid being a sexy lady and i do google image search sexy milkmaid because two thousand nine hundred and that's possible to do and the internet responded big time what we're trying to be live no idea there was a milkmaid fetish out there and a lot of sexy milkmaid photo shoots no idea that i have a milkmaid fetish bhagat alerts to fina tragedies unimportant anyway. Cowpox is an uncommon illness and cattle usually mild. It can be spread from cow to humans v._x. Cal during an infection dairy workers could catch it. We now know that cowpox fox virus. The virus belongs to the orthodox family viruses orthodox viruses include the horsebox virus monkey pox virus variable virus which causes smallpox it includes the the dreaded banana pox virus caught by totally normal man who put their good boy clean wings in some infected commander peels in a very normal healthy way and the end up swinging pock spin around in their short for few weeks all of that was true except for the nap pox pain claiming part seventeen seventy four benjamin jesse and in this farmer cattle-breeder inoculate his wife and two sons was matter from a cowpox lesion on one of his cows jesse have already contracted cowpox believed himself protection from smallpox. When a serious smallpox epidemic hits his dorset village he from his quote great strength of mind took it upon himself to protect his family his wife and children survived and the boys when challenges smallpox inoculation seventeen eighty-nine showed no symptoms jesse however had no interest in systematic dramatically testing methods or publishing results so as finding was largely forgotten upon his death jesse's wife that his tombstone scribe with the first person known who introduced cowpox l. pox inoculation and someone someone else who maybe whose family died from smallpox wrote some graffiti over that inscription saying thanks for nothing you fucking selfish astle. Maybe that didn't happen. Maybe someone thought about right that smallpox became a weapon of war in seventeen seventy six force of ten thousand continental army soldiers in quebec fighting fighting on behalf of the american colonies about five thousand fell. Ill with smallpox and we think that's because the british sent over some people who are infected into the american ranks. Thanks no bueno kind of hard to win. A battle of half your soldiers have either died from smallpox or violently ill with it. The continental task force commander major general john. Thomas died of smallpox fox his unit then retreated southward in may seventeen seventy six arguably this defeat preserve the status of the northern british colonies permitting candidate become a separate country that it is today john adams wrote. Our misfortunes in canada are enough to melt the heart of stone. The smallpox is ten times more terrible than the british canadians and indians together. This was the cause of our precipitate retreat from quebec and smallpox coulda killed the american revolution and without a canada never made never have become part of the british commonwealth seventeen ninety two the commonwealth virginia passed enacting consolidate previously passed acts regarding smallpox inoculation into one this new axe new act included the penalty of fifteen eight hundred dollars jesus stick or six months imprisonment for anyone wilfully spreading the pox turns out legislation regulating our citizens handle contagious just diseases nothing new at the thirty one years of absence yellow fever returns to philadelphia seventy ninety-three killing thousands over span of several months seventeen ninety six edward jenner's innovations began with his successful use of cowpox material to create immunity to smallpox his method underwent medical and technological changes over the next two hundred years eventually resulted in the ratification of smallpox edward motherfucking hero jenner yeah yeah edward jenner observed milkmaids gotten cowpox so sexy sexy milkmaids maid's we're in the sexiest milkmaid bonds luxurious braided hair dressed in a way that sometimes allow you to catch a glimpse. Their ankles did not show any symptoms adams smallpox after the first experiment to test is theory involved milkmaid sarah alums and james phipps nine year old son of jenner's gardener doctor jenner took material from macau box store on hand inoculated into phipps arm months later jenner exposed phipps a number of times to a very virus but phipps never develop smallpox wchs early not early vaccination victory and i wanna risk man jesus christ. This is just a you know could have killed the guards your son but he didn't i get in the royal. Society rejected jenner's report of sorry making sure yes make sure okay yeah. The rules society rejected jenner's report of achievement so september seventeen seventy eight jenner self published a pamphlet called inquiry into the causes and effects of variable vaccine vaccinate a disease discovered covered in some of the western counties of england particularly glacier and known by the name of the cowpox man time game we learn here in the second book and article titles pamphlet titles titles used to be terrible no publisher and the right mind would put that in a magazine or on a website today with that title some you want to call it what you want to call call it an inquiry into the causes and effects of the very early vaccinate a disease discovered at some of the western counties being the potato garages are in by the name of catholic are you are. Are you kidding me. I was still asleep halfway to read net. I read a come down with smallpox and read it again. How about cowpox kill becomes cure new business idea. I go back in time. I do go back and crush it. As an editor this pamphlet outline jenner success in protecting james v from smallpox infection was material from cowpox puzzle in addition to twenty twenty two related cases word began to spread of a new way to cheat death eighteen o one at grim reaper. Oh yeah why get jenner publishes a treaty on the origin of vaccine inoculation which he summarizes discoveries expresses hope that the smallpox the most dreadful scourge of the human species must be the final results of this practice like you add your good one eddie massachusetts became the first state to encourage use vaccinations against smallpox in eighteen o two dr waterhouse waterhouse doctrine boston to obtain vacc- material convinces the city's board of health to sponsor a public test vaccination nineteen volunteers are successfully vaccinated h oh five the first compulsory vaccination is attempted. Marianne lisa of of loose out of luca napoleon sister became the first ruler to try to make vaccinations compulsory. She was unable however to determine a practical method enforcement for years later the first state law in the u._s. Mandating vaccinations was enacted in massachusetts in eighteen o nine. Damn your loom nettie forcing your poisons upon us for over two hundred years eighteen thirteen u._s. Congress authorized president james madison addison to establish a national vaccine agency and president madison says and i quote nah player man for shit back scenes give kids autism. Everybody knows that and then smallpox wiped out just under two million americans in the winter of eighteen thirteen fourteen or that doesn't happen or maybe madison appoints james smith physician from baltimore baltimore as the national national vaccine agent america's so determined to get vaccines out citizens that the u._s. post office is required to carry mail wayne up two point five ounces for free if it contains smallpox vaccine material servicing congress's ruling to preserve the genuine vaccine matter and to furnish the same to any citizen of the united states trying to help people all in eighteen seventeen the first of seven cholera pandemics over the next hundred years hits humanity at large this wave of the small intestine infection originated canadian russia or one million people died one million the first cholera vaccine won't be developed until age and eighty-five spreading feces infected water and food the caller bacteria was pass as long british soldiers who brought it to india. Were millions more died. We define caller in great detail in the donner party. Suck so many puddles quite literally blown off due to mcgill pop which you know is a fake symptom of a fake disease. <hes> a real disease actually fakes fakes into rose. The reach of the british empire navy spread collartoo spain africa indonesia china japan italy germany in america where it killed two hundred fifty thousand people the united kingdom vaccination inactive eighteen fifty three make smallpox vaccination mandatory in the first three months of an infant's life apparent penalty for not complying fine a fine or imprisonment the first mandatory vaccination law in vaccination history of its kind and of course there's backlash backlash excuse me anti vaccines be into protests and why exactly do they protest well for some parents. The small vaccination or the smallpox vaccination induced fear and protest because involved scoring the flesh on a child's arm and inserting limp from the blister of person who'd been vaccinated about a week earlier. I get that if you don't understand how backstage work totally normal why the government is total number two fear. You know why the government is essentially looking like they're trying to force your kid to get sick. Some objectors including the local clergy believed that the vaccine is unchristian because it comes. I'm from an animal. <hes> not gonna lie. Don't care for this argument. This is where i differ from some of our religious listeners. If the argument comes down to a debate between because this is what science has proven and because god said so. I'm gonna go science every time other protesters objected vaccination before <hes> because they believed it violated their personal liberty which it did but for a good reason interesting how the current anti vaccination arguments are really nothing new. They've been around for a long time. We fear what we don't understand and historically a lot of meats acts have have not understood science scientific community. I said the fight against those people's beliefs for a long long time now take a break from talking about people who fear fear what they don't understand and talk about people who help us overcome that very specific fear the great courses plus hale nimrod that was quite the sponsor transition. I think you nailed it pretty sure i hit that one over the centerfield yes time suck is brought to you by the great courses plus. There's a sense of pride that comes with being able to speak confidently about a subject. That's why i love the courses bless with the streaming service you get unlimited access to thousands of lectures on top death dying the afterlife time travel money management even crime scene investigation all from top engaging experts in their fields and with the great courses plus app you can watch or listen just about anywhere i recommend checking out the course in introduction to infectious diseases twenty four lectures armed with tons of facts about bacterial infections viruses vaccines and more delivered by professor doctor berries fox m._d. The madison wisconsin doctor with over thirty years of experience treating infectious diseases listened to the thirty two minute lecture lecture number nine vaccine save lives. If you don't don't trust me i'm sure as hell doctor go see dr fox has to say he seems know a few things since he's dedicated the entirety of his long adult life to the study of infectious disease. Go get that awesome feeling of trying to come up with new knowledge sign up for the great courses plus time suckers get an all access trial four free. Show your support for this podcast. I sign up today through my special. The great courses plus dot com slash time suck. That's the great courses plus dot com slash time suck lincoln to the episode description button. It takes you right to the deal and the sponsor of the time suck app now back to life before widespread vaccinations when millions and millions of people died on the rag from diseases. There were are now entirely preventable. Eighteen fifty-five starting china moving indian hong kong bubonic plague claims fifteen million more victims. If you're bad at math that's way more than a few alternating fifty. Five massachusetts passes the first u._s. Law mandating vaccinations for school children measles then play role in the civil war a short time later historian michael be a goldstone wrote about the role of measles between eighteen sixty one and eighteen sixty five in the u._s. Civil war in his book viruses plagues history writing the american civil war was the last large-scale military conflict fought before the germ theory of disease was developed two thirds of soldiers who died in that war six hundred sixty thousand and all were killed by uncontrolled infectious diseases of these in the union army over sixty seven thousand had measles more than four thousand died sweet nimrod those little asshole demons kill the more you know meats and cannon fire in eighteen seventy five after fiji. She was seated at the british empire a royal party visited australia is a gift from queen victoria arriving during a measles outbreak. The royal party brought the disease back to their island and another disease fire burned up another human forest. The island quickly became littered with corpses that were scavenged by wild animals. Entire villages died were burned down sometimes with the stick trapped inside the fires one third of fiji's population. A total of forty thousand people died back to the u._s. Now in eighteen seventy nine louis pasture invents autism because one time kid looked funding decided to punish all children forever tricking doctors and stick needles in them and pumping him full of disability induced poison or eighteen seventy nine. Louis pasture produced the first laboratory. We're developing the vaccine for chicken cholera sony. Let's chickens died of chicken. Cholera vaccine was made chicken super happy now until they realize it surviving that disaster her you know just meant live long enough to get their head stuck and cut off and then have their delicious chicken bodies thrown into stupid. It's so not great for chickens but it would help you know humans later in august eighteen eighty one carlos finlay presented the paper the mosquito hypothetically considered as the transmitting agent of yellow fever to havana's academy of sciences and it was first published work to correctly identify mosquitoes as the ultimate source of this disease. Finley's theory of course was initially ridiculed. It was accepted only when u._s. Army scientists working under walter reed demonstrated that it was correct two decades later so that's fun for twenty years countless people died needlessly because people were afraid of and or didn't understand recent scientific advancements feels familiar as anyone lewis pasture and u._s. Army physician george miller sternberg both independently discover de at the strip of streptococcus pneumoniae bacteria is responsible for cases of ammonia and meningitis as well as other illnesses more progress science has contagious disease in his crosshairs now in june of eighty eight hundred eighty one the results pastures large study of anthrax vaccination livestock become evident in a dramatic public or in in dramatic public demonstrations nations in a test of his vaccine all twenty five of the unvaccinated animals die. Only one of the vaccinated animals dies likely result of pregnancy of miscarriage rather than of anthrax but the antics crowd at the time still not convinced. They're like yeah. That's kind of cool but you somehow raise my kids. The have a property eighty two the anti vaccination league of america held his first meeting new york among the assertions made by the speakers at the meeting was the idea that smallpox was spread by contagion contagion but by filth this became a popular though incorrect argument of anti vaccinations anti vaccination is yeah. I said right. It's crazy work. <hes> <hes> of course would lead to piles of dead bodies in the streets of numerous cities across the globe why are doctors trying to stick with needles when everyone knows smallpox from mud and shit what we need is better boots in clubs say don't touch the mud and shit we avoid mud sidewalks and lawns and pooping on that's what we need to focus on now. You're damn fool. Dr not sensory lewis pasture develops. The first rabies vaccine an eighteen thousand five. I use on human july six nine year old joseph meister her who've been mauled by a rabid dog joseph would survive grow up to work for pasture hail nimrod in age ninety three in muncie indiana smallpox outbreak interest rates the effect of lower vaccination rates on the spread of a disease a local physician notes that the vaccination there had been largely neglected since last epidemic of smallpox in eighteen seventy six despite measures that included a near quarantine of the city fumigation of male cancellation of public gatherings in compulsory vaccination. The epidemic spreads for may eighteen ninety three through october in the end one hundred forty people contract smallpox twenty dial now millions but still twenty two many the first major documented polio outbreak in the u._s. Occurs in rutland county vermont mont june seventeenth eight hundred ninety four eighteen hundred and thirty two cases of permanent paralysis or reported not really that long ago the british vaccination act of eighteen ninety eight provides a conscious clause to allow exemptions to mandatory smallpox vaccination. This clause gives rise to the term conscientious objector which later came to refer to those who oppose military service by the end of the year magistrates had issued more than two hundred thousand vaccination exemptions anti vaccination is in england other parts of europe the united states become active more active in publishing speaking and demonstrating about their objections to vaccinations in eighteen ninety nine more yellow fever hits the america's this time in panama the french officially abandoned efforts to build the panama canal transfer the rights to the project of the u._s. in part because of yellow fever and malaria deaths you know killing the projects workers in one thousand nine hundred u._s. Army research discovered that mosquitoes or the cause of yellow fever four years later anti-mosquito methods allow the completion of the panama canal now. Let's bring autism into the time line. Nineteen eight eugen bluer a swiss psychiatrist. I coined terms. Schizophrenia schizoid an autism after after observing patients displaying severe cases of the frontier more on this as we go back to viruses and bacteria domination the earth. Let's talk about the nine thousand nine hundred and spanish flu nine hundred eighteen eighteen just barely over a century ago. An avian born flu virus results in fifty million deaths worldwide. The spanish flu thought to have originated in china then and spread by chinese laborers being transported by rail across canada on their way to europe in north america the flu i appears in kansas and early nineteen eighteen visible in europe by the spring wire services report a flu outbreak in madrid in the spring of nineteen eighteen that led to the pandemic being called spanish flu by october hundreds of thousands of americans died body storage scarcity hit code red but then the flu threat disappeared in the summer of nineteen nineteen when most of the infected had either developed immunities or died and if we got rid of vaccines now you can bet your sweet meat sack ass. We'd have plenty more spanish flu type infections disasters following your vaccines. Get some bad bad press nine. Hundred nineteen dozens of dallas texas children are sick and in five die from a contaminated batch of diphtheria toxin antitoxin mixture t._t. The tat was manufactured by mulford and co and philadelphia and the company paid damages to the fleet to families anti vaccine now have some real vaccination desk two point two vaccinations kill those kit it no doubt about it mistakes happen but abandoning successful vaccines because of a few isolated negative incidents makes about as much sense as having doctors doctors have insurgents stop performing heart surgeries because a few times surgeons made mistakes during surgery and some patients died not smart. Stop doing something that will for sure save. Many many many many lives in order to save a couple lives. Gotta look at the big picture by nineteen nineteen twenty two many u._s. Schools have started acquiring smallpox vaccinations before children can attend despite worldwide vaccination successes against smallpox opposition to vaccination continues to the twenty s but typically against compulsory vaccination in nineteen twenty six a group of health officers visits georgetown delaware to vaccinate the townspeople a retired army lieutenant in a city councilman lead an armed mob to force out the medical professionals successfully preventing vaccination attempt stock. What does that gonna start happening again. 'nother setbacks nations come from the land of kangaroos in nineteen twenty eight bacterial contamination of diphtheria toxin antitoxin mixture in bundaberg queensland australia leads to the death of twelve kits five others become critically ill but recover this tragedy occurs when a multi use bottle of tat containing no preservatives was improperly only stored and reused another mistake nineteen twenty nine another vaccinations setback. A disaster is caused by the use of the bacillus comet wherein b._c._g. For tuberculosis vaccination strikes the german city of luke nineteen twenty nine and nineteen thirty seventy two babies die from debris kilos out of two hundred and fifty two vaccinated. Many additional infants made ill as a result of vaccination. The vaccination us would later found to be contaminated with humor closys when when human curriculum the strain being studied in the same lab where the vaccines was produced got in there another setback occurs five years later in nineteen thirty five two separate teams work work developing and testing polio vaccine both projects you know come to disastrous ends at new york university maurice brodie m._d. A young researcher prepares a killed polio. Virus vaccine tested on chimpanzees on himself and finally on children. He enrolls about eleven thousand individuals in his trial. Meanwhile meanwhile john colmer m._d. Of temple university in philadelphia develops in intimidated poliovirus vaccine which tested in about ten thousand children several subjects dia polio eleo many others are paralyzed made ill or suffer allergic reaction to the vaccines hock. This argument will provide legitimate fuel for the argument against mandatory vaccinations. That exists is to this day but again. It's it's about numbers yet. Look at overall numbers in one thousand nine hundred six max theater and his colleagues developed live attenuated vaccine freehill fever. You're using tissue cultures prepared from embryonic chicken eggs among the many subcultures of yellow fever virus in lab. The one designated seventeen d is used given the vaccine. It's name. He published published the results of u._s. Vaccine trials on humans in nineteen thirty seven and the vaccine was easily adapted for mass production and became the universal standard and save callus lyft in one thousand nine hundred nine. The march of dimes is born in enormous fundraising effort begins when entertainer eddie cantor suggests on the radio that people send dimes to president roosevelt roosevelt right president result had polio at the white house to help fight polio within a few weeks people at mailed two million six hundred eighty thousand times to the president which is larry's to me. Just how different money is now like now the stamp to send the dime would cost you know be worth more than the dime anyway other celebrities and then grassroots organizers joining the campaign over the years. March of dimes has raised tens of millions of dollars much of much of which has gone to you know find it polio vaccine a huge early supporter of the march of dimes and the polio vaccination movement in general. I find this very interesting. <hes> were the popular twentieth century american comic comic book characters putin juju march first nineteen thirty nine issue one ninety seven julia juju comes out and it's titled poor polio. Pootie forgot a shot. He should've should've got in this emotionally. Gripping issue put he decides not to get vaccinated against polio ended up losing the ability to walk for not going with juju to the doctor when you got vaccinated vaccinated pretty comes down with a fever and a headache achey leg muscles and then floppy and flaccid arms and legs pootie suddenly can't stand and pootie asked you to help helping to the doctor and the doctor diagnoses pootie with polio then pootie ask the doctor for his shot to clear it all up. The doctor explains how vaccines don't work if you don't get them before you catch a virus and that there is no cure for polio only away to prevent catch it in the first place and while the doctor explains all this using medical medical jargon pootie zones output confused. There's blankly into the middle distance not understanding the word when the doctor finishes pootie says she shot doc and then juju yells studio too. It's too late. There is a job for you. Now it's to go to dana. Pootie and both cody and jews is we'll put tears and then says is huge you here's clock allow associate never said nothing that go pennzoil racer and then after juju hands pootie razor pootie use it to completely erase little pootie arms a little poodle as the poodle body over the next few pages and then pootie redraws all that rewind the calendar by year gets the vaccine before ever coming into contact with polio and juju is blown away screaming. We packing in the shed. If that ain't a new phy trixie trick in pootie dresses the reader direct directly saying hey maxine dollars i can just raise mistakes but you ain't made a lead and you lose. Is your head unless you get the shot. You should support f._d._r. In the march of dimes standard to polio by standing in line in a vaccination line and then juju puts an arm around thirty cases pootie cheek and says not too little pootie dishes and then they both laugh hysterically because his neither of them has any fucking clue what that means the end of the comic the end of the comic not a not a dime line if you're confused you're either neulander or you forgot got about two strange. Little friends been too long. Her from pootie and doodoo sucks very little <hes> mini show within a show time to move onto nineteen forty now nineteen forty forty thomas francis junior m._d. Jonas salk m._d. Service lead researchers at the university of michigan to develop the first right inactivated flu vaccine with support from the u._s. Army their vaccine uses fertilized chicken eggs in a method that is still used to produce most flu vaccine today. The army's involved with the research because of their experience with troop loss from flu illness. Listen deaths during world war. One also nineteen forty american researchers began to use the term autism described children with social emotional issues nineteen forty two a bit took component vaccine that offers protection against influence a influenced b viruses is produced after the discovery of influenza b viruses also nineteen anti forty two the communicable disease center the c._d._c. opens in atlanta a big fan of the nineteen forty-three leo kanner an american child l. psychiatrist publishes his paper autistic disturbances of effective contact after observing eleven children that displayed common autistic traits kenner names this condition conditioned early infant early infantile autism now known his autism actually more recently known as autism spectrum disorder nineteen forty four part of the sea of cell cultures virus growth is discovered. This allows viruses to be cultured outside the body for the first time the ability to culture influenza from respiratory secretions. This allows diagnosis of influenza nineteen forty four hans augsburger an austrian pediatrician medical theorist medical professor observed a group of children who exhibit similar conditions to the ones kenner studied however most of these conditions are milder forms of autism and include impaired motor and speech skills symptoms would later be used to define asperger's syndrome and and now of course that that term has gone away as well <hes> nineteen forty five the influenza vaccine. I licensed for use and civilians during the seasonal flu epidemic democ of nineteen forty-seven investigators determined that changes in the anti genetic composition of circulated influenza viruses has rendered existing vaccines ineffective highlighting the need for continuous tenuous surveillance and characterization of circulating flu viruses and this is why we have an annual flu vaccine to this day in nineteen forty eight the world health organization and who influences enter is established at the national institute for medical research in london. The primary task of the organization to collect characterize influenza viruses develop methods fits for the laboratory diagnosis of influenza virus infections established a network of laboratories and disseminate data accumulated from their investigations right. Okay reptilians scher okay. That's where you have to get it. Studying the fluids shit get the fuck like i don't understand london's importance orange the new world order hiding in plain sight <hes> <hes> oh you're not running experiments on children. I live in cages. Are you not doing that for sure not creating diseases. He's is to create disharmony and discord death and suffering within the human race so you lizard cockers can feed off for negative negative energy sandwiches. I get it. They're not doing any of that stuff. Wake wake sorry blacked out for about thirty seconds here back also in nineteen forty eight the kyoto disaster cursing killer japan sixty eight of six hundred six children die of after diphtheria immunization as a result of improper manufacturer of toxoid dammit another setback another bullet to be fired from the anti vaccination gun ninety four super bad ass. Jonas salk has successful polio vaccine. Trial super big deal sock is credited with the the invention of the polio vaccine starting in hong kong in nineteen fifty seven and spreading throughout china and then into the united states. The asian flu becomes widespread in england where over six months fourteen thous people die second way follows causing just under seventy thousand deaths in the u._s. Just over sixty years ago the flu takao damn near seventy thousand americans wait you recent. Luckily a vaccine was developed the same year which ended the pandemic thank you scientists for literally saving tens of thousands of additional lives noted appreciate it. I appreciate you scientists. Also oh ninety seven a new age to end to flu virus emerges to trigger a pandemic about one point one million globally including roughly one hundred sixteen thousand the u._s. So many people by the flu so recently nine hundred sixty three measles vaccine is licensed after demonstrating safety and a half. I'm going to stay with safety demonstrated safety and efficiency efficiency fucking some of these words to me words right efficacy. Okay i in monkeys and humans john anderson colleagues declared their measles vaccine capable of preventing infection. There edmonston be strain of meals. Virus was transformed into a vaccine licensed in the u._s. u._s. Nine hundred sixty three nearly nineteen million doses would be administered over the next twelve years dr benjamin rubin of wires laboratories patents his patents the bifurcated needle for delivery of smallpox vaccine in on july thirteenth nineteen sixty seven nineteen sixty-five excuse me using bifurcated aided needles for vaccination requires less vaccine material for each dose and was easier than previous methods. This development would have large implications for smallpox vaccination in campaigns also nineteen sixty five the autism society of america founded by ivar. Lo bus sounds like a fucking russian new rule order kind of puppet bernard art remnant and roussy sullivan to help increase public awareness support for families and individuals with autism in nineteen sixty eight a new h three and two influenza virus viruses. There's so many diseases that's scary. This virus emerges to trigger another pandemic resulting in roughly one hundred thousand deaths in the u._s. Alone one million worldwide nineteen eighteen sixty eight that happens ninety sixty nine maurice hillman working at merck large pharmaceutical company luminosity puppet organization clearly modifies rubella bella vaccine virus from paul park but harry meyer scientists from the division of biologics standards. The vaccine enters commercial use nine hundred sixty nine thousand nine hundred seventy year later seventy one on the m._r. Vaccine licensed protection against measles mumps rubella provided same time. You one shot the u._s. Government licenses merck's combined tribal at measles mumps rubella vaccine m._r. One combination vaccines several advantages over single vaccines. They reduced the need for several separate. Injections reduce cost of stocking and shipping multiple containers combination vaccines can help improve overall vaccination rates by simplifying the vaccination process for the next few years in seventy. Several new vaccines are licensed and studied research on autism also brings a new finding nineteen seventy five the first statistics published by the c._d._c. Stays at one and five thousand children are affected affected by autism spectrum disorder and in america in nineteen seventy six reported cases of protests whooping cough has dropped in the u._s. since the introduction of the combined d._t._p. G._p. diphtheria tetanus and pertussis vaccine the highest recorded number of annual case have been nine hundred eighty four with more than two hundred sixty thousand cases but by nineteen seventy six. We're down. They're just over three hundred thousand ten hail nimrod. I like that. That's a better number. You have to pick between two hundred sixty thousand people get sick or thousand thousand seems better to me. I don't have a degree in math but you know it feels right. In my heart nineteen seventy eight the centers for disease control and prevention declare glow goal of eliminating measles from the united states by nine hundred eighty two although that would not be met wide-screen vaccination drastically reduced incidence of the disease and it would be declared eliminated in the country by two thousand by the year two thousand over the next two years more advanced vaccines for rebel and rabies or licensed by the world health assembly accepts the who goal who global whoville whoville whoville for second no by the world health assembly accepted the who global commission's recommendation so many mother fucking fucking scrabble words and declared the world free from smallpox ninety-one the measles elimination program reported measles cases were down unprecedent unprecedent eight percent from the previous year. That's pretty good. The centers for disease control prevention noted that only seven hundred seventy cases reported in the first fourteen weeks of nineteen eighty-one while three thousand eight hundred ninety seven have been reported in the same period the previous year progress in vaccines for several diseases continues in the early eighties nineteen thousand five the pan-american health organization innovation peyot powell which serves as regional office of the world health organization for the americas announce the campaign to achieve polio elimination in the americas by nineteen ninety its original goal of nineteen ninety it would not be met but the last case of wild type paralytic polio was reported the americans in nineteen seventy one and the region of the americas was certified polio eleo free thinking polio-free nineteen ninety four nineteen ninety three the vaccines for children v f c program is established as a result of a measles easels outbreak to provide back scenes at no cost children's parents or guardians might not be able to afford them the program increases the likelihood of children recommended vaccinations on schedule also ninety three cost of the influenza vaccine become covered under benefit under medicare part b. nine seventy four russia hit hard by diphtheria declining. If immunization among children and wayne adult immunity led to an epidemic in the former soviet union nineteen ninety four the russian federation saw almost forty thousand diphtheria cases in contrast s. four years previously nine hundred ninety. There was only about twelve hundred cases. That's not good august twentieth nineteen ninety-four polio declared eliminated from the americas nine one thousand nine hundred eight big year for the antibac- movement you say was the foundation of the modern anti vaccine movement british researcher andrew wakefield who we talked about earlier along with twelve co-authors publishes that paper we talked about in the lancet claiming evidence of a measles virus in the digestive systems of autistic children this bullshit study. I already pointed out. <hes> later tossed out suggested a relationship between the m._r. Measles mumps rubella vaccine and autism vaccination rates in england dropping response from more than ninety percent to eighty percent or lower well below the level required for her to munich to measles measles cases. Meanwhile began to rise while only fifty six cases were confirmed confirmed wales and england nine hundred ninety eight one thousand three hundred and forty-eight will be confirmed by two thousand eight and that is a direct result of lowered vaccination rates in two thousand four it was reported at some of the subjects of wakil paper had been recruited by a lawyer involved in a lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers ten of the twelve co authors of the study retract their interpretation regarding guarding the link between the vaccine and autism numerous epa epidemic epidemiology epidemiology la god damnit epidemiological logical epidemiological there we go fuck epi epa epi epi epi veal epidemiological. I don't like that word at all. Studies perform sense of also provided additional evidence that no such link exists part of me wishes this job. I could just be like a medical extra like a fake medical exer- they just have just fucking loaded with the most dense medical terms just watched students as a supposed professors like epidemic glad gut dayrit. I'm robert hanssen. I'm aversion. I'm the most through without the killing but with the same frustration over not want to say at the turn of the twentieth century continuous transmission of measles halted in the united states the next year in two thousand and one more research into autism comes to a conclusion the national institute of health estimates that autism affects one two hundred fifty children kevin a drastic increase from estimates of nineteen seventy-five anti vaxxers uses to up use this jump to justify their skepticism and linked to jump with a jump open vaccinations again as i explained earlier was there a real rise nazism or doctors is becoming much more familiar with diagnose autism again. Correlation does does not lead to causation does not imply causation fourteen years after the launch of the global eradification program the world health organization declares polio eliminated in europe june sixth two thousand and two two thousand three the first nasal spray. Flu vaccine is licensed. U._s._a.'s readiness for the spread of disease continues to improve two thousand seven american veterinarian or the american veterinary medical association av establishes the one health initiative task force and effort to attain optimal health for people animals and the environment praise jingles less disease for meat sex and fertilize then american medical association the american medical association unanimous nanotubes unanimously approved a resolution calling for increased collaboration between human and veterinary veterinary medical communities the term one health which looks at the interactions between animal and human health energy medical and scientific lexicon the one health approach is recommended for pandemic preparedness during the international ministerial conference on avian and pandemic influenza fuck these names of these places these acronyms obs- god damnit science community. You want people like you more. Make easier names just international ministerial conference. Just call like fucking tuck in flu guys or something. I don't know making fun of different marketing teams together. God damn it. The average person's like the what sounds fucking fucking dumb also in two thousand seven the f._d._a. Approved the first vaccine for people against avian influenza a h five n one virus only get hired to to come up with different names for medical tack medical government. It's make it more fun. You know all these long asked. Craziest titles louis interest in international ministerial epidemiology will conference on the avian and pandemic epidemiological <hes> call it. The flu fighters you know sounds like foo. Fighters sounds like fucking younger and cooler call like fuck disease and shit right. That's kind of cool. Yeah speaks to the youth also the f._d._a. Approves the. I said that u._s. Vaccine the post. Your medicaid tiny greasy shifty eyed said the bitches continue the vendor of two thousand seven bill melinda gates foundation gives one hundred million dollars to the rotary international to combat polio rotary international. That's not a bad organization right two words okay. That's cool <hes> promises to master grant over three year period for total of two hundred million to be used in the global eradication campaign bill gates. Nobody's seems like a pretty smart guy. If bill gates was on one side of a debate and jenny mccarthy was on the other side hyde. Who should i go with two thousand nine. There are zero diphtheria cases in the u._s. For the fifth consecutive year and fewer than seventy five years diptheria korea once a leading cause of premature death of children virtually eliminated in the u._s. Yup yeah cholera epidemic begins in yemen able to thousand seventeen seventeen raging through a country whose water sanitation health infrastructures have been damaged by conflict as of mid august about five hundred thousand cases nearly two thousand deaths had occurred stuff still killed him july eleven two thousand seventeen the world health organization. That's good. That's a good one who like a ku band reported that measles outbreaks in europe during the past twelve months led to thirty five deaths thirty. One of the measles deaths occurred in romania. Which had you know had years of declining measles containing vaccine coverage for two thousand fifteen the world health organization estimated to dose mc coverage at eighty eight percent of remaining children down from a high of ninety seven percent coverage in two thousand three in most countries experiencing outbreaks in two thousand seventeen measles immunization rates were much lower than ninety five percent the coverage amount needed for her immunity italy alone record three thousand thousand three hundred confirmed cases of measles one death in the first half a dozen seventeen ukraine reported thousand cases by the end of july two thousand seventeen poland <hes> <hes> actually <hes> announced two million cases. Do you know that five million polish people die of diseases every year because they don't get vaccinated and a traditional polish cuisine is to eat your own shit so you know oppressions that need to be in this episode. Hey declining vaccination rates totally preventable. The illnesses lawmakers health officials in european countries have begun to respond to declining vaccination rates in germany legislation is pending that would find parents for not seeking compulsory pulse read vice on child immunization italian health officials have made immunization against twelve childhood diseases mandatory for public school attendance in france where we're currently children must be immunized. Only against if theory tetanus and polio eleven childhood vaccines including mtv became mandatory in two thousand eighteen ongoing economic considering unrest led to a return of measles in venezuela and august of two thousand eighteen just over a year ago or just pretty much. Exactly what am i talking about the world health organization his asia declared the entire region of the americas from circulating measles in two thousand sixteen only to have this highly infectious disease return to time of crisis due to a lack of enough vaccines this according to who guidelines meals considered endemic when the same type of meals viruses been circulated in the country for more than twelve continuous months gaps in vaccination coverage in venezuela walea provided an entry point for imported virus type i present asian then europe to circulate and under immunized populations the disease has recently crossed venezuelan borders to infect people in brazil including highly vulnerable indigenous populations who are completely unvaccinated. God knows how many people have already died and that my dear meet sachs. Is this episodes time. Suck timeline good job soldier made eight and back barely. I hope that time line really why would he backs ax nations. I edited and re read studied this these notes more than any other episode of time by far. You know admittedly science. It was not my strongest subject. I worked very hard to kind of overcompensate for that clearly never scientific lecturer but you know luckily there's there's a lot of scientific studies out there <hes> and i think i'm pretty decent at you know being able to differentiate between science and pseudoscience and go with legitimate sources and we included a lot out of them several of us you know research has episode very thoroughly and i hope that laid some important information out there you know we need vaccinations because infectious disease historically the number one killer service meets acts by far the only reason we don't worry about infectious diseases much. Today is because vaccinations have been very successful in iran it again because that's success. More people are choosing not to get vaccinated bro. We don't even needed anymore. Do diseases aren't even bugging kill people and shit. Why should get vaccinated diseases. Don't kill anyone anymore because we got back stated the very frustrating argument but what about axes making sick. They'll give us his orders like autism. I've already stated there is no credible scientific link between autism and vaccinations but let me let me debunk a few more vaccinations or sorry let me bunk a few more vaccine arguments events anti vaccine arguments every go. That's the way i should have said. The first time there are four main arguments against vaccinations in the debate over their use in children <hes> the first argument is that modern vaccinations contain toxic substance such as aluminum and mercury and these substances causes autism. They don't 'cause they do include some of no substance that part's true however the reality is that we consume thirty to fifty milligrams these differences daily through just living our lives on a planet full of these substances substances like aluminum and mercury and these thirty to fifty milligrams are twenty times more than the maximum allowed in a vaccine can't debunk that association any better than that you get way more aluminum mercury put into your body just fucking walking around living then you're ever gonna get in a in a vaccine and get it every day. The second major argument that too many vaccines can do overload children's immune systems causing health problems the the truth here. According to medical professionals in the c._d._c. is at children are exposed to more environmental antigens again in one day then what is contained in all of the vaccines they will ever fucking receive boom. Mic dropped missed about the third argument is often used used that natural immunity to disease is better than vaccination no with measles. The death rate is two desperate thousand cases in developed countries twenty times that rate in low resource nations one in one million people have a severe adverse reactions to vaccines de bunked ya yeah yeah next myth the final most used arguments vaccines imitations cause autoimmune disorders asthma allergies other things the truth at least according to scientists scientists doctors the entire medical community is that not one large scale study has shown that vaccines increase the risk of any of these things that one not even by accident now. Let's show some sympathy for the antibiotics crowd and make a final emotional appeal to do the right thing for you and your family get vaccinated unless special health problems prevent you from doing so. Let's be nice but first. Let's be naughty. That's fine. Let see some youtube. Commenters had to say about <hes> antibac- today's idiots of the internet the internet as videos called middle ground pro. Oh vaccine versus anti vaccine. Should your kids get vaccinated. Almost three point six million views eighty six thousand likes six point four thousand dislikes. I published february third two thousand nineteen by jubilee who describes the video saying we brought people together who both support and oppose vaccination to see if they can find middle ground and the people in the video are are are very nice and respectful towards each other <hes> towards each other's opinions. Luckily the people in the comments action don't play nice a comment from a guy my name's sam v._r. Days sums up the true lunacy the anti vaccination argument. I love this writing doctor. I have a medical degree and fifteen years experience karen. I have a core account exactly. I talked about this phenomenon. I'm i stand up right now. One person go to school for for seven ears right and then it can be in the field continuing to research it for like thirty more years now. The the the they believe that ninety nine point nine nine percent of their peers believe leave then somebody else read one article or watches one video by someone who sites no legitimate sources and believes the opposite. It's just not logical. Oh wonderful smart ass. James roberts post a quote from one of the debaters. The doctor doesn't know your child as much as you do and then james rights you know what he does snow karen the human body exactly holy shit use your bubba crack my shit up also posting vaccinated kids are actually much more likely to have autism because unvaccinated kids or all dead so dark. That's so fucking funny to me. <hes> i remember that again. Vaccinated kids are much likely to have autism because unvaccinated kids are all dead fifty five replies to bump adele the first this is from billy parker who claims to be autistic billy posts l._l. Good one. I am artistic but my autism showed before i was vaccinated so the antibiotics community doesn't have much of an explanation relation there l._l. And then user so done who comments next dismounting bubba funny replying with all caps i it's always the all cats with this crowd lies. You people live and breathe lies but of course no link pte anything <hes> you know <hes> backs sub so dunn's was known responds to jeff sweets comments this next because he seems to be an idiot and his comment makes no sense right what about the fact vaccines vaccines don't hold lifelong immunity l. and well under fifty percents. Shut the fuck up. Jeff is tell by the way he wrote that you need to you need a little more educated if a particular accent doesn't mean is you for life that doesn't make it worthless. That's a ridiculous argument. Just means you need to give vaccinated more to be protected getting vaccinated a few <unk>. Times is way better than getting dead. One time you dip shit. Kevin back is stone. Kills me posting you know it never gets old unvaccinated kids <music>. Hey oh ted kevin o. Dead that is there's some good shit this thread. You know what never gets old. Unvaccinated kids heads such good dark jokes. Evelyn doesn't care for this joke respond with i'm fifteen and not vaccinated my brother's twenty and is not vaccinated. Both of us were very healthy. I suppose you're going to say oh well. You're lucky then just like you said countless times to other people <hes> yeah evelyn. That's what he should say. 'cause that's the fucking walking truth. You're lucky the one of the lethal diseases you have not been vaccinated for hasn't made contact with you because if it did way higher odds it's gonna fucking. Kill you you jackass or punch your parents and they're stupid fucking faces right now and then that one antisocial gal hit the logic grand slam shutting down the hundreds of comments from people like evelyn can use the fact that they're unvaccinated alive and proof vaccines are necessary she posts. Everyone needs to know that anecdotal. Evidence isn't proper offer evidence. You cannot prove that you got sick more often using vaccines. You cannot prove that you stop getting sick. When you stop vaccinating. You cannot prove that you're perfectly healthy without vaccines. Your personal and easily made up experience are not evidence. The statistics of deaths from various diseases before vaccines easily shuts down down anecdotal evidence fucking boom upper deck love it antisocial gal. Well said he'll nimrod. I thought about ending on that one but that's not an ideologue statement. You know it's wonderful. The replied this next comment is idiotic and way to communist threat. I reverse viper post. Why do we have to stop having all vaccines because a child had a one in a million allergic reaction to the vaccine and then user so done <hes> miss. All caps is back doc. Maybe mr l. caps. What did i say miss. I don't fucking know that. I'll be myself up out of the show. I'll sell flagellate after that for that error sodas back this time writing. You'd think differently if that one child was your child you know when you might think differently so done when you don't risk a one in a million chance at an allergic reaction and then your kid fucking dies from a disease of vaccine would have given given them a ninety nine percent plus chance of surviving. You're not looking at the big picture so done. Pull your head out of your ass. Step back. Take all the info in use use some fucking logic instead of being an overly emotional idiot of the internet the the internet okay now that'd been naughty very opinionated which i will always be on this subject because it deserves that i read an article titled in defense of the common anti vaccine very well written short piece written by rene f new era a medical based scientist and rene big begins. This is just a great emotional appeal to <hes> concerned and loving and her parents anti vaccines and general rene regions as someone who works in public health few issues catch my attention like the issue of vaccine denial ism i've had the opportunity to investigate outbreaks the vaccine preventable diseases and seen some very interesting and even heartbreaking cases why someone would take the chance to have their child sick or even permanently disabled by a vaccine preventable disease is beyond me as a father i want to protect i want to protect my child from any and all harms and few harms or as scary the as the disability from polio the scarring from chickenpox the brain injury from measles and that's another thing i didn't really touch on. I talked about deaths. There's a lot of other bad outcomes from these diseases and don't get me started on the risk of death from influenza on the other hand. I started to understand vaccine hesitant parents when i became apparent just just like i want to protect my child from vaccine preventable diseases. I also worried about the dangers in her environment. My wife and i were very diligent about not letting her put everything in her mouth. When the exterminator came into our home to deal with an ant infestation i quiz them on the insecticide they were using. I researched the insecticides ingredients and even opted for something more natural in in dealing with the ants i when that didn't work we did go with the recommended nontoxic insecticide just like we were hesitant about that insecticide to deal with the problem evelyn home. I came to see how some parents could be hesitant about. Vaccines not only that but a large swath of the population in the united states has not seen a case of measles or or even chickenpox now so the dangers posed by these diseases is not visible to them in fact there has been a case of polio in the united states for as long as i've been alive when you combine the desire to protect your offspring with the invisibility of vaccine preventable diseases because vaccines have been successful in preventing them from coming back and mass you get people who are hesitant about vaccines. Some of them are hesitant to the point of outright opposing vaccines and i understand that these these are the common anti vaccine people people who are misinformed and are going on their gut instinct of protecting the child these are not the people with medical degrees or scientific background who turned earned against medicine and science and denied the science behind how vaccines work these are also not the people who make money writing books and giving lectures about the perceived dangers of vaccines. I further understand their hesitancy and fears. When i see how difficult it is to understand risks and probabilities when humans are all about basing decisions on past experiences more than on making calculations. Just look at how many of us have gone to buy a lottery ticket especially when the jackpot source there is a better chance chance that we will become an astronaut's but we still think that we'll be billionaires. Come morning when i was researching the ingredients insecticides to use during the ant infestation i had the benefit of being a scientist when sort between the good and bad information online other people don't have that benefit they go online do google search look at the most popular results based on an algorithm and get lead astray by celebrities or by people and organizations with titles that sound official before too long their fears are confirmed and they are scared scared away from vaccinating their children add up enough of these parents and we get some we get some of the problems we're seeing across the country we see the arizona department of health backing off from from teaching kids about vaccines we see outbreaks of measles and communities with high rates of unvaccinated children we see pseudo political organizations pressuring candidates to deny or ordeal fund science when it comes to protecting their children know would want to do more than apparent after all children are quite literally our future because we'll fade away way and nobody wants to carry on our work and carry with them our memories as a result. We are very protective. Skeptical of anything could hurt them. Some of us have the benefit of knowing and understanding understanding scientific principles of toxicology immunology epidemiology and biostatistics fucking. I got i got a feeling good others. Among longest understand that experts truly are experts and that celebrities are not the best source of information yet. There is a growing segment of the population that is misinformed and coaxed into making horrible apple decisions for their children without knowing it. This is where the history of vaccines website comes in which is where this was posted. We have a wide variety of informational no resources to show that vaccines have been around long enough for us to know that that they work and they save lives. We know this is not just by hearing about it in historical items but also from the scientific observations made on them if you haven't already take a look at some of our image galleries or falls on instagram or the very informative creative timeline finally if you have concerns about back station please seek the advice of a licensed health care provider who be able to talk to you about your medical history and take everything into the context when advising you on vaccines. Thank you rene. That was wonderful again. That comes from if you want to go check it out yourself and check out more about history of vaccines dot org. That was fantastic so i can't think of anything to add. I think i've said everything that you know are just repeat myself which i've already done a little bit just vaccinations get him. Get him from your kids. I know you're coming from a good place but man do the research. Get online really dig into the to the science. You know go to legitimate websites. Don't be please don't go that paranoid conspiracy place in your head where it's like you can't trust science because science is tired of the government and the government's trying to all the time talked about so much but it really really isn't logical to think that a few examples of the government triggers does not mean they're all trying to trick is all the time. Please you know help us. Keep your kids alive. Hell nimrod time time for top five takeaways by away number one although many believed that the medical industrial astro complex is conspiring to make people for money the reality is a doctor's get their own kids vaccinated. Why would they do that if it was one big trick. Do they hate their own kids or they dumber more than jenny mccarthy and jim carey. I think you know the answer to that number. Two brilliant people working over many years develop possibly the most important medical science breakthrough of all time the vaccine scene and they developed many ways to implement them. They often did so at great risk themselves their families because these excuse me because we now have the chance to live until we're somewhere around eighty. Thank thank you brilliant people number three the antibiotics crowd is not full of experts. There are way more experts on the pro vaccination side of the argument like almost all of them <hes> the fact that jenny mccarthy a meat sack intellectual credibility of tila tequila is the most famous figuring this movement says a lot about the movement number four when it comes to fearing for your kids health. I fucking get it. We all get it's being a parent is all about tough decisions meant to benefit your children. The last thing on earth that most parents want to do is have a medical procedure done. That's going to harm their kids. Which is why you should get your vaccinated. The risk of severe adverse reactions to the vaccine about one in a million while one out of five hundred kids will die from the measles easels right if they get it. Twenty times never will die in more impoverished countries if they get it. If you're on the fence about this. Let the mass set you free number five new info. Did you know that anti vaccines paid for a study that ended up accidentally debunking their own premise the autism advocacy organization safe minds recently funded research it hoped would prove vaccines cause autism in children but this effort backfired for the organization since the study shows a link between autism and vaccines does not exist ouch had sting a little bit between two thousand three and two thousand thirteen safe minds provided scientists from the university of texas southwestern school of medicine the university of washington the johnson center enter for child health and development and other research institutions with approximately two hundred fifty thousand dollars to conduct a long-term investigation evaluating behavioral behavioral and brain changes of mikacs monkeys that were administered a standard course of childhood vaccines safe minds hope to find a link between vaccinations and cognitive disorders orders akin to autism in this monkey population. They did not show respect that quarter million dollars vaccine case third world countries saved a bunch of lives instead of needles fucking with a bunch of monkeys time i take away an anti baxter's has officially been sucked walked by the time you're here in this part of the episode. I'm sure several listeners have already on subscribed. Several angry emails have been sent in but fuck it had to do this. Sorry not sorry. The science reveals what the science reveals knocking back down from that the math doesn't lie. I'd be lying if i said arriving at either side of this debate was totally cool. I don't think it's totally totally cool to be an anti vaccination however still antibac- sir. I also don't think you're an idiot. I just think you're very misguided. Thank you the time so team. Thanks to queen of the lindsay comments high high priestess chuck harmony village cam jesse garden grammar donor reverend dr joe motherfucking paisley time suck high priest alex do guys bid elixir access apparel. Thanks <unk> sack script keeper flannery for killing it with a ton of great research sources this week also thanks to sophie facts sources evans also killing it with so much more amazing raising research <hes> yeah the team really came together to do a good job i think for this episode joined the colts curious facebook group if you wanna meet and converse with other suckers joined join the time suck discord group for even more interaction lincoln the episode description for both groups next week gonna probably piss people off. Maybe some fringe people someone on the show getting weird with the ninth circle cult suck which is more of a conspiracy. Our european royals killing naked kids for fun haunting them on a private game reserve like robert hanssen. He hunted women private game reserves. Probably not this conspiracies insane it alleges the pope. Francis rapes and murders kids on the regular sacrifice is were sold to satan. It alleges that satana child sacrifice rituals took place during the spring of two thousand eighteen spring two thousand and ten in the countryside of holland and belgium and two good excuse to look look into some real pedophile rings. You know like the catholic church like pedophile scandals. Also jeffrey epstein going to get dark can get weird next week. It's going to be interesting ride. The hope you join me nell interesting messages on today's time sucker updates in your time sucker up time sucker fellow comic. <hes> worked with years ago in south dakota. Phil johnson writes in with some good. News used some good people helping the homeless. Hey dan just finish listening to your apps on the homeless problem. Nicely done thought i'd tell you about one of our comedy brethren here in san jose california doing awesome good for the homeless comedian pete mundos has been running a weekly open mic at a bar here in town for years a thankless task in itself. Yeah bet they collect tips from the audience at the show like a lot of open mics but instead of doling out a few museums. Each comic pete with everybody's consent uses the money to buy sleeping bags and distribute the beat them to the homeless in our area. Those comics won't miss the five or ten bucks from the tip jar but a lot of people are sleeping more comfortably because of the folks at that mike man thanks really great episodes and i hope we end up in the same town sometime soon. Phil hale nimrod filmon comics giving back that so i love it given laughter given sleeping back to the homeless. Thank you pete muna's man. Thank you phil for bringing this to my attention and yes. I hope our paths cross soon. Timesaver cold. Hardy sends him one of my favorite kind of updates six six which one that involves me putting wanna you time suckers in a terribly embarrassing public situation colton writes. Damn damn lusa fina. I'm a biochemist at utah state university and was driving into the parking garage. I was listening to the loss tech. Suck and roll down my window to open the gate into the garage. A group of colleagues were walking out and walked by my car as you entertain the idea of stringed instrument makers detailing their creations with their own come you son of a bitch looks of hor or just slowly rolled away. Thanks for that one. Dan loved the podcast. Keep onset cold hardy kyle. God could picture that so vividly my mind i. I bet you got some looks colton especially like in utah there. Are you know there's a high percentage of people that are extremely socially. Conservative can't imagine what they're thinking. It is here just may come out of your vehicle talking about people back in you know ancient ancient the in italy one hundred years ago just fucking jerking off violins over and over again rubbing the come into a man doesn't sound we probably has it's new listeners in that situation but i gotta laugh or they will clearly just glad you enjoyed the show interesting little tidbit about the black dahlia coming in from times chris nolan chris writes. Hey master selker. I got listening to the episode and elizabeth short. When i got off work. I was telling my grandpa about it. I started off my story by saying i listened to a podcast about nineteen forty seven murdered today and before i could say anything else. He said that was my mom's cousin now saying the name or anything yet. I asked if he meant elizabeth short turns out. My great grandma about was born around the same time is short and her maiden name was in fact short cheap mass small world now. Ask your grandpap. He knows who killed her helping definitively solve this case would be you know pretty cool update if you can swing it if not thinking that in yeah i love here and they say that finally the only time sucker nick parker sent an inspirational email about the meat sack ability to overcome devastating personal tragedy with the subject line of you suck gas. You shits whistler. Nick writes dear dan or captain of the sacred muskrat. Libya's first of all do not suck us. I just wanted to use a catchy hatschi attention. Grabber elba worked l._l. Did work anyways. I would like to tell you a tale of tragedy and triumph and how you and what you do with your comedy ultimately. Save me and help me get to one of the hardest things i've ever faced in my life now. This might get long winded. I do apologize but here goes in september of two thousand seventeen. I was at marine week for the marine corps. I've been for ten years now and i'm currently in the reserves out of detroit well. I was lucky enough to be granted. Free tickets to the lions game. They were playing the cardinals after the the game as walking with my buddies to be dubs ran into the most amazing beautiful sweet four foot nine inch woman said four for nine inch. She was everything i've ever wanted a woman. I fell in love immediately with her and who she was. We'll fast forward to february of two thousand eighteen all roads heading towards marriage me proposing later in the year with well the monday before valentine's day her dad has really bad stroke and on tuesday she takes him and finds out he had an schemic stroke wednesday morning valentine's valentine's day. He wakes up kills. Her mom kills her and then turns the gun on himself man dude. I want to hold day before knowing what had happened. She lives over two hours from me will thursday. Her friend. Got a hold of me and told me the news when things like this happen. People always use use the expression. My whole world came crashing down equated quite literally did for me. I was so heartbroken and shocked one person. I thought i'd have for my entire life was gone. I was alone. I still miss katie more than anything. That's where you come in and how you save me. I didn't know where i was going or what to do. So i've been working the same meaningless job day in and day out well few months this happened. I tried listening to thomson girl radio on pandora. Will your comedy comes up. I've been a long time fan of your work in comedy. I would listen to your comedy all the time on youtube every platform i could try and better ultimately was working. I was feeling low and your comedy helped. Bring me back one day. Listening to your comedy and pandora heard an ad for your podcast cast first of all. I'm sorry i is fans not know yet a podcast justice. I know i'm a table marketer well. Somebody told me click so i did. I had to check it out. I told you the tragedy so here comes. The triumph almost caught up with every episode and especially of gravitated towards the true crime ones and learning about all the serial killers. I had a realization that not only really liked the subject. I'm actually very passionate about learning all i can and that's why this fall i will be double majoring in criminology and psychology and hopes that when i graduate i can become an f._b._i. Profiler for the b._a. You an icy i._s._u. I apologize again for this being so long winded but i had to share my story with you if it weren't for you and what you do i would never have realized that that can be passionate about this subject again love all you've done and create with his podcast. You truly are gift wasser. I'm very appreciative of all you've done for me and the rest of us in the culture curious. Thank you dan it from the bottom of my heart respectively sent by your faithful times nick p._s. Happened on two hundred sixteen and a half percent muskrat levies. I'm not sure of your standards. <unk> willie suffice for shirts. Now we can use that we can you were low. We're almost out of moscow babies right now. Also for the love of god pleased up going to the asshole of ohio cleveland. Sorry lindsay come to toledo place. Thank you and keep on sucking holy shit. Nick finished his suck up about two thirty in the morning last last night before getting up at six thirty. Two record was exhausted but then i read this and i got a little second went. I truly work extra hard on these stories like this. I don't know i feel like a responsibility to want to let you uh-huh listeners down and want to do my best to try not to do that. There's so much sadness in the world so much ignorance and a lot of that ignorance leads to more sadness and i wanted the best job i can't at some laughing and some learning to make this planet a little more fun to to be stuck on and just good for you for having the incredible strength to push past asked what you went through that would have broken some people and now you didn't let it break you. You're chasing your dreams. You didn't let tragedy crush you you now you can potentially you become profiler and you can catch some dirtbags son of a bitch. Who's about to take somebody else's love away. Your path can lead you to spare others a pain similar to the pain that you felt and i don't think a job can get any nobler than that. I don't think you know the pastor on can really be any nobler lastly. I i'm headed cleveland next year so yeah i do like it. Do you like cleveland quite a bit. Sorry prime. We'll make it to toledo take a road trip already for the levin nimrod drive yvonne over to the former factory of maybe taking a browns game. I'm hoping i'm hoping those fuckers light it up this year. Thank you for sending that in. Thank you for being who you are are hail nimrod to you. Thanks time soccer. We all did have a great week. Kazaks don't dive any diseases. We already have a readily accessible vaccines for if puke yourself to some kind of swine flu diphtheria death how fuck kema above second. Hey joe the bathroom right before the show. I was shooting out nothing but pure blood and i took a little quick temperature tests. I have a fever of one hundred in fifteen is about that's bad thing thank you. Thanks thanks dr joe.

autism contagious disease jenny mccarthy united states polio safina mccarthy malaria somalia Dan cummins michael mcdonald dr edward jenner cowpox james phipps mccarthy president dr joe paisley sec california flannery