13 Episode results for "Ronen Bergman"

Amanpour: Ronen Bergman, Dan Meridor, Susan Neiman and Xiuhtezcatl Martinez

Amanpour

58:39 min | 1 year ago

Amanpour: Ronen Bergman, Dan Meridor, Susan Neiman and Xiuhtezcatl Martinez

"Hello everyone and welcome to I'm on for. Here's what's coming up. They call name king bb but two days after another election. Netanyahu still doesn't have a crown amid rising tensions with Iran. I'm joined by veteran Likud politician in Dan Meridor and the investigative journalist Ronen Bergman then the moral philosopher Susan Neiman on what America can learn from Germany in facing. It's original sin slavery and it's not like we're pretending like we know everything because we were telling politicians to listen to the scientists teenage. Climate activism is shaking. The World World showtimes caught Martinez tells a Hari Sreenivasan what led him to help organize. Tomorrow's Global Climate Strike Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York. The longest serving leader in Israel's history Benjamin Netanyahu is staring into the abyss dubbed dubbed Israel's groundhog day voters went to the polls again this week for the second time in five months and again neither b nor his main rival. Benny Ganz has an outright outright majority indeed Ganz the former military chief and is centrist blue and white party are ahead by just one seat in the Knesset and today President Reuven Rivlin warned of a possible third election urging Netanyahu and Gansta work on forming a government quote as quickly as possible but for the time being both men say hey they should lead the charge something kosher. That's why I'm calling on you Benny. Let's meet today at any time to move this process fold which is more relevant than ever. We have no rights to go with the election. I'm against it the agenda abroad unity government today but I do not therefore blue and white headed by me won the election blue and white is as the largest party according to the data of the Central Elections Committee up until until this time we have thirty three seats and Netanyahu could not and did not succeed in getting a blocking political alliance that he aspired to. I'm I'm for which he dragged all of us to elections so how this is going to shake out. Dan Meridor is a former deputy prime minister and longtime member of Netanyahu's now who's Likud party but he voted blue and white in this election and he's joining me now from Tel Aviv and Ronen Bergman is an investigative journalist who focuses on Iran and other security the issues that have been central to this campaign and he's joining me here in New York. Gentlemen both welcome. If I might start with you Dan Meridor there in Tel Aviv right in the center of where all discounting and and guessing is going on what happens next does in fact be managed to cobble together a coalition or in fact does Benny Ganz. Do they go in together. What is what is next to you think Grieving Christian. I believe two stories. You want you speak of how you form a government. None of these guys have majority it would struggle to have it but the real story the other story which is the most important story for is attempt to stop the criminal investigation against him by using parliamentary immunity he needed the majority in parliament and to give him immunity so that the charges against him which are quite heavy of bribe of corruption will not be pursued this to be was totally illegitimate intimate and in fact these election left him with less support for immunity. So what I think is happening is not the issue of national unity. We all wanted. Most people want it. The question where the man that may go to criminal trial in in a few weeks or so can be part of that agreement or he should I would say I'm defending myself in a court of law and will not stop the process because I know about this issue which people don't speak of but this sued the motivating force behind the tunnels actions well done Meridor. You have been a justice minister. You know very well what all this is about `bout and as you rightly said Prime Minister Faces potential indictment on a variety of corruption charges. So so what are you saying. I mean is see looking into the political abyss. Do you think that that's what is going to come to. When I can't tell the prophet we had to elections since one after the other very never happened in our history to have a third one really is totally unacceptable and I think that it is difficult ebony out to decide I I lost. I cannot continue you. Try to have a plea bargain or something and go home or it just for the wrestling so bill could members in the Knesset who will see that they may lose everything if they don't a go for a national unity government which they can have maybe even maybe maybe even rotation with the blue and white but in Tanya as long as there is a criminal charge. If there is one there's still hearing and attorney general may be convinced but if not not there will be a criminal charge of bribe and and other corruption charges and this is a situation that bb needs is not to be in. I hope we'll have it on his own. It's not the Likud members have to make a choice choice moral choice to defend the prime minister whatever the thing against even against the criminal justice system and is it good for Israel to drag us to another chaotic situation and is it good for the Likud that may be part out of the of the coalition and we left out because of this. This is a major issue. We'll have to see how things play out in the coming weeks. Let me turn to Ronen Bergman with me here in the studio. I wasn't actually expecting damage to bring that up. I as the main issue with this stalemate. That's going on right now. Your your investigative correspondent and you've done a lot of this kind of work. Do you think that that's a do agree with myrtos analysis that that is the one thing. Netanyahu is trying to stave stave off rather than his national security credentials and all the things he normally talks about well most of his career one goal which is which was to stay the prime minister and and now he has two goals to stay the prime minister in order to evade prosecution and we have seen everything that he has done in the last two or three years. I ah again encoding elections few months ago. This was all in order to have the immunity changed alot of immunity or have the the parliament immunity in order to make sure that he's not going to face the charges. We are going to have the hearings not just next week next in two weeks time and these expected resulted up to the attorney general will decide to prosecute him on at least three main charges of corruption bribe in other charges so Netanyahu from his point of view. This was the result of the last election which are a defeat for him. There's no one main victor but he lost. He wanted to enlarge his majority. The coalition the right wing coalition in one or two mandate and he lost five he was not an he's not able to form a government. He's dependent now on. Ben Against his main rival able to form a coalition. He's calling as you show the your audience is calling for unity but what he's trying to do is put the blame on Bennigan's gaunt's for not allowing him to be his partner for boycotting him and calling for a third the election from his point of view. The results are just a mistake and he will go for more and more Komo elections until what he believes the Israeli voter will come to the decision well. Obviously we have to say that. The prime minister firmly denies any of these accusations cassation court however it says it's like a sort of prosecution a left wing conspiracy but to your point go ahead down. Okay let me say the man is innocent until proven guilty no doubt but you can't say this in one minute and the other minute not allow the process to continue and not allow these really positive low but it's true that he took bribes or not it can't be left open it decided and then let me ask you something you are a. Likud Nik you being in that party for a career and yet you withheld your vote this time from bb Netanyahu and you voted for the blue and white centrist party of Benny Ganz and Gary Lapierre. Is this the main reason reason why this is one reason and there's more than this really cool historically the party by its name. It's it's called the National Liberal Movement. This balance of the national caused Jewish national calls which is very important than rebuilding. Our country is very are important in my life in our life but to be only national nationalistic without the human side. Democratic liberal side is very dangerous. The Likud the Party the defended the Supreme Court defended Human Rights Democracy and proud to say that I was missed of justice has initiated the legislation of Human Rights Basie. She close conserve illusion. It's in the spirit of Menachem Begin the great defender of the court we could change. It's not anymore. National Liberal Party's nationalistic unlisted our country would it the Jewish National Causes Michael all my life but democracy human approach others equality is to me very important important and this changed so I could not support it could on top of it on trying to fade the perimeter pulses. There's a constant attack on the in by the Prime Minister and these people on the police on the state attorney. Tell on the court system for being left is being traders. This is very dangerous and is a joke support Likud's. Stop being what it used to be but became sort of right-wing in the best sense of the word right not balanced it used to be done is absolutely right but the pattern not disconnected the Likud is going right extreme-right right because Netanyahu is signing yet not a written contract with the extreme ultra right for some sort over body'll he will annexed he will annex the occupied territories. He will take an extreme right-wing position and policy in return. They will vote for his immunity. This is what he's trying to do. This is why the Likud is taking such extreme lime in the last few years. You know it's really interesting what Dan Meridor you've just been saying because it sounds very very much like what many any in the conservative party the Tory party in Britain of said that Boris Johnson and the levers taking it to a very extreme position against institutions. It's like what many in the the Republican Party here say that under president trump the Republican party is going to a much more extreme wing say against all the sort of institutions that we that we've grown to to understand no conservative positions but let me just put this because I just WanNa get this from Yale appeared who is the coalition Alicia partner in the blue and white party and this is what he said again like you said the Neon who refuses to accept the results of this election trying to drag the country country back into another election which you've just said just listen to what he said. Zillow Tova One person is preventing the formation of a liberal unity government movement faced with the choice between what's important for the country. What's important for one person. The country comes first okay so that's what he's saying. Saying is sort of backing up what you all are saying but listen. I just wanted to get to this because Dan Andro. We are in not just any old moment. This is moment where the whole idea of another war in the Middle East in that region the whole idea of Iran Saudi Arabia the United States Israel. All of this is at stake and I wonder whether you have done so much work on uncovering so much of of this trajectory. What you feel is at stake right now on on that issue so in two thousand twelve as Mark Mazzetti Myself wrote The New York Times magazine last week he was Meta. Benjamin Netanyahu is very close else to order a strike on Iran in an interview he gave us. He said I was just about to do that but I did not have the majority in the government because he needed aided the government approval for to go to war then he changed the law and so only the cabinet need to give him approval to go for an all WHOA CO two him. Any kind of villager offensive can evolve into war that law that was change in two thousand thirteen last week. Apparently is we now learn just before the elections he was about to go to an all out offensive against Hamas the Gaza Strip something that can evolve into according according to his decision only the attorney general stopped him what we learned from that is that his continuous policy not to risk himself for going for offensive against Hamas in Gaza because it's bad for elections because bad against his against pro is not good for his popularity. Maybe change and I think now maybe Netanyahu believed absolutely not to be reelected. He needs a war which puts us in a very risky position right now he might know us any kind of friction in the border to call for some military offensive and I think the military should be very very cautious in what is happening the coming few weeks and then he put it to both of you. Dan Meridor and Ronen Bergman because as I say this is not being spoken about in the abstract the United States is trying to figure out. Should it do anything in response to what they believe was the Iranian missile missile attack on Saudi oil facilities last week. This is what president trump has said latest on this issue of retaliation. We'll see what happens. I mean you may have some very strong hit. Where the strongest military in the world by far a lot of things could happen if we can have a peaceful solution. That's good. It's possible that that won't happen but there's never been a stronger country militarily not even close Dan Meridor in Tel Aviv. What do you make of that. What so you think sitting there is going to transpire in terms of any kind of military reaction to what happened in Saudi Arabia well not in a position to give advice to president trump and he doesn't listen to me on advices and America America will or will not go to war as the president decides not me but I think that the Iran issue is of great importance because you're on these destabilizing the region try to be nuclear and uses proxies against most Arab countries and Israel of course and uses. This legitimacy of Israel is should not exist repeatedly so of course they are sworn enemy but what do you do with that on one hand will needs to be very tough with Iran Iran but on the other hand from a position of strength the need to find solutions. Iran is a strong country four thousand years realization. Could there can be the way out by talking is a good question president trump showed his decision by running out walking artem the agreement. I agreement wasn't that good but was dead. What did your trinity. It's not clear to me see. The trump wants to meet through honey. I'm not seeing being the Iranians allowing it so far so I'm not clear about the president's ideas of what he does with Iran but in the Middle East is is eh many countries in mainly Arab countries who look at the United States and asked them says we'll America stand against Iran. If you're on Texas or not good question. I don't want to answer it but going back for a minute. Netanyahu Ronin said rightly Natanyahu saying head no majority see for striking Iran. Maybe one of those people in that small group in the cabinet who were involved this was me who was of course against this and and I hope that even now nobody will think of going to war election. I think this is far fish. I don't think we'll do that. I very much hope this is not the case as on on the racial. It's a long term issue and the positional strength will need to reach in the end in agreement and by which you run will really stop. It's a race for nuclear capability worrying agreement. It was changing the way or or walk away from that. You run stops. The stabilizing the region can be an agreement. I would if I were to advise the president alongside being toughened. Maybe using force needs to go. Oh for some sort of negotiations it not end the different way. Okay negotiation. Ronin seems further away than ever the president has said I want to meet with the president of your no conditions but then this all started and said no we're not going to meet on they want sanctions lifted playing hard to get yes and seeming to be in a position to play hard to get. Do you agree or are they playing with file seems it seems that the US president is very keen to strike he is. I understand he wants to be re-elected as Prime Minister Netanyahu and he believes maybe unlike Prime Minister Netanyahu that war is bad for elections and the situation makes aches this project on what is happening in Israel in two thousand and twelve there was an American President Barack Obama who pressured Benjamin Netanyahu heart not to strike nowadays nowadays it seems that the president trump might endorse quietly an Israeli strike over Iran and out of your reporting. I thought was fascinating eighteen was he you said part of the motivation for the Obama Administration to get this nuclear deal was to prevent was to preempt any notion that Israel would strike you on the way Benjamin Netanyahu reached exactly the opposite of what he was trying to be pressured he said I'm going to strike. Iran if you President Obama would not do that and instead President Obama started negotiation for the reaching the deal that Prime Minister Netanyahu object so much but nowadays is very different president at the Oval Level Office and if Prime Minister Netanyahu finds right decision of Ri- ri- reason to strike around. I'm not sure that he's there to stop in a word and I think I know what Dan Meridor things because he just said it but in a word do you believe pulling out of the JCP. Oh the Iran nuclear deal has made America's position less clear more dangerous. I I don't understand what is the American position on one hand. You have the twelve points off secretary of State Pompeo which is basically the end of the Iranian Revolution in and on the other you have a president trump who's extremely keen to have a meeting with Ruhani and have a deal so I don't understand what America is going to think. Prime Prime Minister Netanyahu has in that the leverage to act and this is very very dangerous place. Can I switch gears back to the kingmaking politics in Israel. Dan Meridor. I'm so much has been talked about obviously Avocado Lieberman and his seats and where he might place them he has broken with Benjamin. Netanyahu was once his sort of mental What do you think is going to happen because I believe him and there's no sort of bleeding heart liberal and yet he is secular and many of his positions appeal to liberals although in the past he's positions very anti-palestinian very hard line have been very divisive. Where where do you see every door Lieberman coming down now were to tell you the truth. I never could guess he would do what he has done and I can tell tell you what he will do the future so it's quite surprised. I have to say but it was the successor surprised for him. He grew numbers the Knesset. He seems to be a clear about not long. Tony'll to return to power so it looks but we'll see when as pass. I don't think he is he will let you go back to his perennial alliance. The question is what is it that he wants on the Palestinian issue in the Iranian issue through on the peace with the Arabs and the Israeli Arabs is a good question he was very adamant and using very harsh language against he's really Arab citizens which I hated and I said publicly and the was very skeptical about the peace attempts. He might have changed their to maybe with age. Some wisdom got into him. I can't tell you he's now a major player but in the end there's only one one person called Netanyahu who will have to make a choice quite soon because the clock is ticking on the criminal thing will you will you step down with some way a respectable way or not and if not means the Likud numbers not deliver people will have to decide whether they go with him all the way to more election one or two or three free or do they tell him. Thank you serve you serve as well but now it's over. This is the main question to me now. Rana laws which you but of course well you know. Netanyahu came out as the voting was going on begging people to vote. I served you well now. Please come out and put me back into power right and when you you see the actual results you see that his voters came to vote followed his advice and yet Arabs came more herbs came to vote and he changed the balance and other the things happen. I think that his party is not going to fire him. They are not going to rebel against him and I don't think that Benjamin Netanyahu would follow dance advice and Dan you know sign some sort of a deal with attorney general saying I'm going to step down off the stage of politics in return for full immunity from prosecution. The only thing that could happen in our two of two scenarios one is that Lieberman decided he will go for a coalition with the air parties that will re this will make sure that Netanyahu GNO cannot form a coalition Bennigan's the prime minister but this this needs to have a new Lieberman and by the way that's a big deal because the parties have up until now not been and significant players never never been out of the coalition. Maybe and I hope that they will do or we're going for the election. which is a disaster for Israel? There is so much more to talk about including Netanyahu's you know having threatened to annex parts of the West Bank. We'll see what you can before his base in order to get the same immunity that we have discussed we will keep an eye on this and hopefully have you back. Ronen Bergman here New York with me Dan Meridor in Tel Aviv. Thank you so much for joining me this. The guys are terrible taking care of their health. 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Let us know what kind of job you're interested in and it put your profile in front of employers if an employer likes your profile Ziprecruiter. Let's you know so if you're interested in the job you can apply listeners should download the free number one rated ziprecruiter job search app today and let the power of technology work for you so much of Israel's identity is of course tied to the Holocaust perpetuated by Nazi Germany an even as the fall right there once again rears its head as does antisemitism. It is remarkable to take stock of how far Germany has come in atoning for sins ends. It's a lesson that my next guest says could and should be learned right here. In America this year marks four centuries since sixteen thousand nine hundred when the first Africans came as slaves to these shores and despite a civil war this country has never had a serious truth and reconciliation effort Susan Susan Newman is a moral philosopher and author of learning from the Germans race and the memory of evil and she's joining me now from Berlin Susan Neiman German. Welcome to the program and you know it's really interesting to have you on the program today particularly in view of the conversation we've just had about the stakes in Israel you actually spent a long in in Tel Aviv just before we go to the heart of your book. Tell me what sort of connection what connective tissues is there in terms of your thesis on reparations and restitution and what's happening in Israel right now. Oh Lord that's such a large question. I I mean a very short version would be that aw I think Israel the politics would be much better if the Holocaust weren't used in the center of so many political arguments mints on the other hand. I do use the Israeli case when I talk about the paying of reparations for the Holocaust as a model for what other countries to to do so. Let's talk about that model because you detail it extraordinarily in in your new book. What is it that you think the United States AIDS specifically not in big picture but in small step by step picture that leads to a conclusion can learn from Germany in the Post Post Nazi age. I mean I guess the world things that Germany after the defeat suddenly became reconciled and suddenly you know no outlawed all of this you know awful awful politics that that led to Nazism that's exactly right and I think the three basic things we can learn from the Germans and the first one perhaps most important is how very hard ages to confront your nations crimes. There will always be pushed back. There were always be people who come up with arguments like well. Other people were just does bad Let's look to the future and not dig up these old bones and as you rightly said the Nazi period it has come to serve for much of the rest of the world as such a symbol of absolute evil. It's kind of a black hole because we tend to look the Nazi period from the very end. We don't look at the beginning you know there were six and a half years in which the Nazis were in power before they even started the war much less started with genocide but because it serves us now we only focus on this end point we tend to assume the minute the war was over. They got on their knees and begged pardon and tried to atone and the really shocking looking thing is that they didn't when I first came to Berlin in one thousand nine hundred eighty two. I had friends who would tell me with a great deal of shame that their parents were Nazis. They wouldn't say my parents were Nazis and they thought they were the world's worst victims but that is very much what the view was in West Germany. Each east Germany was somewhat different and I think there's a little bit of hope in there for those people lund you're absolutely right the way the four hundredth anniversary of slavery is being commemorated in the states is very much an example of a fairly broad sweep of Americans trying to come to terms with slavery and the Neo Slavery aretha followed it not simply as an unfortunate little blip on our history but quite a central part of it and of course there's been gigantic pushback. Newt Gingrich criticized the New York Times for this sixteen nineteen project and plenty of less prominent people find it appalling. I think once we you realize that even the Nazis or the former Nazis founded appalling that other the Germans would attempt to face the guilt attempt to atone for it pay reparations. I think once we realize there's going to be that pushback back. We're much better able to deal with it Susan. let's just talk about the things you will. Let's it's in a second but I just want to break it up with a few questions in that you know you said. Oh I think I think you either recall what your friends in Germany and he said I mean basically there are no to the question where the monuments to Nazism there are no monuments to Nazism. There was no such thing whatever was there it was razed to the ground and in fact there are monuments to the victims which we see in many many places in Germany and you've pointed out the contrast trust to the United States. There are still these monuments and memorials for instance to the confederacy. Give us talk us through that point absolutely and let me just clarify when I say there are no it's correct to say no monuments to the Nazis some Nazis what's his sites have been turned into what the Germans Call Dank Ma which is not quite monument I mean can you translate as monument but it's a place where people will need to think so there are such exhibits at something. Nazi sites but with one one very strange exception which I only found out about quite late last year and it's very abstract. It's just it's in a in a quite distant place. as very abstract is just to the war dead there would be inconceivable to you know the plantations that we have with women in. Hoop skirts I tried to imagine Agean you know somehow there being something comparable with women in dirndls and long pigtails and it really is unimaginable. Even Vinh are of far right party which is unfortunate wouldn't propose that what we have instead is a variety of monuments from concentration some training camps with museums that have been very carefully and thoughtfully prepared to various kinds of statues remembering the victims uh-huh remembering the few resistance heroes that there were and particularly interesting monument which is all over Germany there. It's called the stumbling stones and they're these little brass plaques about four inches square which an artist Damn Nick has is placed in front of houses in which Jews lived and from which they were deported and murdered and each stone has the name of a single single-person and the date of their deportation and death. If it's known Bryan Stevenson the creator of the wonderful lynching memorial in Montgomery Gumri told me that he was deeply influenced by those stumbling stones in particular and the way in which they change change the iconography of well of the city and indeed of the country and he hopes that his lynching memorial will not just stay stay in Montgomery but that different counties where people were murdered will common take pieces of the memorial so so instead of a south that is simply full of you know every two miles you see another plaque to some confederate battle or another that we will also side by side. Remember what else happened. I I should just say to interject this for a second I I. I spent half a year when I was researching this book in Mississippi in the deep south. This is not to say that I believe American. Racism is confined to the deep mm south it's simply by any means whatsoever. It's simply that because the south is conscious of its history of often very full Paul sway it serves as a magnifying glass by which you can look at American history more closely. Susan I want to play this sound bite from an interview I did with then with the Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu and he was talking after he had taken down four confederate hedrick statues in that particular era at that time we can talk right but let's just play this sound bite and what he the reasons he did this. Another friend asked me to consider these four monuments from the perspective of an African American mother a father trying to explain to their fifth grade daughter. Why Robert Liberty League sat on top of our city can you can you you can you look into the eyes of this young girl and convince her that Robert e Lee is to encourage her. Do you think that she feels. Dell's inspired and hopeful by that story. Do these monuments help Percy her future with limitless potential. Have you ever thought have you you ever thought that if her potential is limited yours and my potential limitless potential as well well. I did interview about it but that clearly was from a press conference. He was talking about that in abroad in abroad arena but look you have kind of personal connection to the struggles in the south. You were raised. I believe we live for a long time in Atlanta. Your mother was campaigning for the desegregation of public schools. Tell me just reflect act on what Landry you did in New Orleans what's happening or not happening and what should precisely America learn from the reparations and the the and the and the outlawing of hate crimes in the like in in Germany what should happen to you know the African Americans the descendants of slaves who came here now how four hundred years ago so let me say a word about the clip with Mayor Landreau admired the speech that he made when the statues were removed and I even quoted in my book the argument that he was just quoted using using is I think an important argument but by no means the strongest one people often say we need to take down confederate statues is because they cause pain to African Americans and that's certainly true but I think even more important is the things that we choose to memorialize in stone or brass reflect our values. We don't simply memorialize every single piece of of our history. you know we choose particular men and women who represent ideals that we we would like as a nation to have in that we'd like our children to have so in that sense. I think it's not only important for African American girl to not not have to walk by a statue of Robert E Lee. I think it's just as important for a white American boy not to think that's the paradigm so so to your next question. Yes I was born in Atlanta Georgia shortly. After the Supreme Court decided round versus board of Ed my parents were from Chicago and we were Jewish which really did kind of make us outsiders. you know certainly lien was a different kind of childhood than I would have had in New York but I'm not sorry about it. although at the time I certainly felt like an outsider and I suppose the thing that I'm most grateful for is that I did grow up in the middle of the civil rights movement. My mother took a a stand which the rabbi of the reform synagogue also took but unfortunately not very many people Jewish community or other white people took a quick was to openly campaign and work for peaceful desegregation of the schools for which we occasionally got threats from the Ku Klux Klan on but again I grew up thinking at quite a young age we're on the right side of history and moreover. It's unfortunately become a somewhat old fashioned view in the Jewish community but it is what I was brought up with. because Jews were a minority community who are often oppressed. We ought to show solidarity with other oppressed communities and you know if we read from the. H- gotTa every year that we were slaves in the land of Egypt then we ought to be on the side of people who were slaves in the land of Georgia and not just simply how I grew up. I'm Susan finally and we just have a short time left but I just want to ask you because you know despite right what Germany has achieved. There is a resurgence of the far-right. The alternative for Deutschland has made big gains in parliament. There antisemitism is on the arise. Even in the United States antisemitism is on the rise. We've talked about racism or that's continue continues you know. Is there a moment now that you see e where there's a real concern about how this is going to play out in the future that lessons haven't been learned or is that also silver lining and so many people responding and reacting to this resurgence of these hate hate filled ideologies. Thank you for bringing that up because because so many people don't pay attention to that part of the story I had a friend from Los Angeles right to me frantically hundred no a couple of months wants ago the story about a an Israeli wearing keep on Berlin being attacked by Arab got a lot of press and he wrote to me. Are you in the the children all right and I had to say you know. I'm sorry in what country were Jews murdered this past year unfortunately it was the United States of America that is there is a rise in anti-semitism all over the world. I think it's a concern concern. There's a rise in racism all over the world but in Germany what gets far less international play is how quick the reaction is. I mean the funny thing is not only did three thousand berliners immediately demonstrate. The Not terribly left leaning. It's it's more center. Rightish newspaper. A had a huge headline Berlin wears a key PA and they had a little keep that that you can cut out of the newspaper where it we do worry about the rise of our right wing party but I think that the the process Germany has gone through in the last thirty five to forty years has made us less less vulnerable and more aware of the dangers of that kind of radical right position than any of our neighbors in Europe and that is the good news I wish we I'm so sorry I wish we had so much longer because this is really important but thank you so much for this insight and it is important to actually focus focus on what you just said that there is a resistance to this kind of hate Susan Neiman. Thank you very much indeed when we turn now to the global climate Emmett crisis Friday is shaping up to be the biggest day of protests ever inspired by the Swedish schoolgirl Greta Thunberg millions of young people across the world. I plan to come out on strike from school. Shoot Tests Got Martinez is one of the young organizers of Friday strike and he's joining fun verb and other youth activists in Washington Washington. DC for the demonstrations. He's been protesting since he was six years old and coming from indigenous. Mexican descent shoot has cut believes protecting NIA is his spiritual duty. Hari Sreenivasan asked him why people are finally getting up and taking action shoot. Just tell me I what is the climate strike. When are these strikes happening. What's planned so September. Twentieth is going to be a combination where eh we're going to see millions of young people in the streets organizing from hundreds if not thousands of cities around the globe. I think this represents a moment a history everywhere. The climate crisis is more present than it has ever been both in many political spheres in the global conversation in the consciousness of the people and I think the younger generation is very reflective of this dire sense of urgency and the climate strikes were sparked by this brilliant ongoing. They got somebody from Sweden. She's been striking outside of parliament Sweden for you know almost a year now I believe so she headed down and kind of started that initiative on her own out in Sweden and now his mobile momentum for millions of people worldwide to join her in these efforts March fifteenth was the first global climate strike to happen APP in where there was one point six million people that walked out of school into the streets to demand boulder climate action to demand participation their parts keep fossil fuels in the ground to meaningfully implement just transitions away from fossil fuels reverse the climate crisis and so now every single day this issue is getting more and more important more and more urgent we have less and less time time is so I think this momentum that we are seeing especially now that the public schools has excused absences on that day for students we are going to see a massive grounds while on like we've ever seen before four of youth mobilizing industries using our voices to really show the world that this is the most important issue of our time. How you GonNa make the grownups take you seriously christly. I understand the the visuals the action itself all of these young people out on the streets. How do you translate that into action by the people who hold the levers offers of power. Who haven't done enough for decades? Definitely I think public pressure is an absolutely critical piece of pushing the political. Hello worldwide you see increase in in governments in politicians really understanding that this is one of the most it's the defining issue truly my generation represents you know the the younger generation from eighteen to thirty we represent the largest voting block in the United States you know so so we have pressure that we can put on politicians where we're not gonNA vote anybody that doesn't have a solid planet platform at the worldwide as well with these strikes there symbolic uh of this shift that our culture needs to be making swords holding politicians accountable and holding elected officials accountable for us. It's not like we're pretending like we know everything because we were Italian. Politicians listen to the scientists to listen to the scientists that have been telling us for decades that this is something that we need to be paying attention to immediately and acting upon immediately and I've been doing this since I was six years old in the game for like twelve years I came to talk to you today about how sacred the earth is so so for us to be stepping into not only the streets but also taking action on our courts so in the federal government and the United States address in the United Nations taking this into schools a building independent action in communities worldwide like this strike again. This is one I think landmark event that symbolizes the global momentum of young people's will to overcome overcome the stagnant energy that political power has failed to create the change. We know it's possible difference between this climate strike is we are calling on the adults worldwide to strike with us. The energy and the call and ask is for adults to stand up with their youth. It's a walk out of their jobs to walk out of their work into join us in the streets and put that pressure on government and then we got to follow that up with the actions in our communities with the way that we're voting and so on so does there is there kind of a voter registration drive arrive component to this as you head into twenty twenty if you want to back candidates that are that prioritizes climate. Yes Fars ars voting goes. That's definitely on the agenda of myself and the organization I represent her. Guardians and no variety of various different groups within the climate space are also going to putting it as an energy and said that that's not so much a specific ask because it's such a global movement. These strikes are such a global movement so it's not just US centric since honestly the largest turnout that we're seeing any ways is a Europe but I think there's New York flagship event because it's his like come out to the states because there's is going to be so much momentum and energy and performing artists people pulling up is going to be a thing having much more serious implications than than just asking people to vote I think a a global with space of across the planet people unifying in this leg concerted call. Is there a specific list of sort of demands that you'd like like to see resolved. In having these actions for us is like the first step is putting pressure on politicians is putting the pressure on on people that are going to be making the decisions on our behalf in really showing on the streets in making this cry like we are not going to stand idly by while future is is kind of determined by people who are brave enough to take the steps that are absolutely necessary for us to determine the future in a positive light because things are really terrifying right now. We're seeing projections of everything. From six trillion trillion dollars of damages from climate disruption in the next years to a billion people being displaced to completely changing the global political landscape. Things are going to shift a lot. It's like it is very foolish to think that the world is going to look like it is in ten years similar to how it does today and it's all to us like this. All hanging in the balance is all on the accident that we'd say the way we live our lives policies that we push and if we can do it quick enough because there are people that are already suffering every day that are losing their homes and island nations in the South Pacific with homes and burning in the Amazon from Fascist governments down there. We are seeing massive amounts of destruction in pain already so we look at our selves as this generation who has a lot of power. We have technology. You know we have the right to vote. many of these young people do in like what are we. GonNa do about it these politicians in office. What are you gonNA do about it. You you know this is about more than just what your platform is built off the talking points in your script but this is about the action the we are demanding to be demonstrated otherwise it. It'll be too late you. You said you started this when you were six. You're fighting fracking at eleven at fourteen. You're already addressing the UN. How did you get into this. How did did you maintain this kind of enthusiasm and why was. Why were you so passionate about this at a young age so my says my people are the the Michigan people of Michigan posted land? What's his Mexico today for us. As an intern this people was to protect our land. Our water to firefox future for our community are people with that is like inherent within our existence. We say like our existence is resistance you know and so it is second can natured to defend what we love to fill we care about it is our responsibility to our ancestors of that fought to defy defend those same things it has a responsibility to the next generations so for me. Gwen up in my Culture Sam ony with these teachings at a very young age beginning to learn about the climate crisis became very apparent that this is the fight of my lifetime time and it is there's no choice about it's not about being an activist. It's about fulfilling. Responsibility is the generation that is alive on Earth today and how about your parents were were. They involved in this too yeah. Momma Momma started Earth Guardians which is the organization that works with hundreds of thousands of youth worldwide working with them so engaging community action various levels. She started that in one thousand nine hundred way before I was born in definitely grew up in an movement in the streets you know my older siblings involved. My Dad was traveling speaking at the United Nations representing Mickey Cohen Environment Spotty and cultures as my blood pressure. I asked that partly because one of the critiques Has Been Look Look. These children are being manipulated by the adults. They don't understand these topics that they're they're being used as puppets in this large game right but from what you're talking about to me. This is something that you feel passionately about on. Your own is pretty full. This dollars going to say Oh this kid on what they talking about and immune related by the parents then listening then I listened to us. We have personal investment of this. We have stories of how you've already been affected. We have a burning passion within the same way that a K. wants sees injustice at any level whether it's in our community or bullying being in our scores and we know that's not right. It doesn't take a degree or or any amount of years on earth. No what is right what is wrong and for us like we we see the future is in danger. We see that our president is in danger. We'd see that our planet is in danger and we see this interconnectedness that we have with with all life on earth for much. The generation like this is terrifying. This is depressing this creates apathy in stress and disconnection and like US numbing ourselves from all these problems albums. I it is not easy to be alive in the world today to be young person in the world today 'cause we carry a lot of weight and we're holding that you know in so for parents and not only in adults to not only create responsible largely for creating this crisis but also telling us that our investment in building solutions that generation was too afraid to do is coming from a place of manipulation from our parents. That's just like if they get like either. Get on our side and get out of the way as this come with costs. I mean as you become more vocal. Oh cool as you've grown in this movement. He made enemies. Yeah I mean I was getting death. Threats from the fossil fuel industry when I was like eleven years old eleven autozone and my little brother who is like nine ten in death threats from the fossil fuel industry people trying to set up shady meetings lots of things have happened in my life where it's been very apparent that being this vocal and standing out and sang stuff that many people are afraid to say many adult afraid to say let alone other kids. We are building more power our so that we're not alone in this and there's so many leaders but there's definitely been times in my life. I've been afraid because of the target. This work is putting back. How do you know it was from the fossil fuel industry. I I was doing a bunch of work. In Two thousand ten eleven twelve specifically around natural gas extraction resisting that in our community doing a lot of education in a lot of conservative communities in schools where there was a lot of parents and people that worked in industry in going pretty much teaching them in in giving them the truth about this like horribly extractive industry that was destroying our communities health our air water around that time there was all kinds of different things that we're coming. Indirectly from people within the industry people disguise themselves as like people to work for my school trying to meet up with me and like as yeah it was. There's all kinds of stuff. That happened like my my mom was like you know a lot of it but yeah it was definitely an intense time because we were making a lot of noise in that space specifically getting a lot of like yeah really really shaken up in Colorado for water. You are part of the lawsuit against the US government tells about that yeah so myself and twenty youth filed a lawsuit two thousand the fifteen against the federal government demanding action sue directly adjust to climate crisis our claim was the the federal the government has has violated our constitutional rights to life liberty and property for their failure to address the climate crisis adequately for knowing about this crisis for the last fifty plus years and not only doing nothing but working directly with the industries that are perpetuating this crisis so this try this case on his way to trial has gone on through many obstacles in ill leaps and bounds and initially filed against the Obama Administration pass on out of the trump administration we have seen gene massive. I guess waves in ways. People never thought was possible with this case everything from legal and political analysts looking at thinking that it was a domed. We're here for four five years later. and we're still going through the court. System and various judges have ruled in our favor instead of these young people have standing and have the have the actual constitutional right to unlivable climate the sustains human life so different the different rulings have really been Dan Revolutionary ways that we haven't seen before hundred thing young people not just taken to the streets but really using the justice system leveraging political power in in these spaces is what gives generation edge that is different than different approaches to you know environmentalism in the past and is a very exciting place to Warren and now we're kind of a little bit in the waiting period on trial in the Ninth Circuit Court and excited excited to see where this goes it has a lot of potential will wear demanding demanding is for comprehensive prescription for a comprehensive clamor recovery plan to be implemented across the nation to reverse the climate crisis and and get us back down to a safe level of greenhouse gas emissions in the atmosphere and his big in this revolutionary and it's sweeping and that's the kind of work there's going to be needed. Environmental movements have been fueled by youth for decades. Why do you think this moment is different. I think Galati these ideologies of where environmentalism lies and how it's defined has actually separated in the people and has been very narrow Arrow I think in its in its approach and its tactics and hasn't really reached a mainstream audience and the way that needs to because place at the planet is that there's just never been been in greater urgency to act at every level from politicians to corporations to individuals listen now I think as the crisis has gotten bigger and bigger these walls that separate these different movements in this different work begins following and we realize that it's not just about activists and politicians and people that work in the UN. It's this is about entrepreneurs and visionaries. Artists Design is teachers parents. You know workers like we all have a place within this. This movement movement generation gets that more than other people and with a lot I believe with the last generation that's really going to have the opportunity to sway the future in a positive light shootout. Martinez good luck to you. Thank you and we must all hope he's right and that this generation does have a lasting impact when it comes to climate a change but that's it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from Neil.

Prime Minister Netanyahu Israel United States prime minister Dan Meridor Likud party Iran president Ronen Bergman America Germany Tel Aviv Knesset Deutschland attorney Benny Ganz New York Susan Susan Newman Christiane Amanpour Hari Sreenivasan
Democracy Now! 2018-11-21 Wednesday

Democracy Now! Audio

59:02 min | 2 years ago

Democracy Now! 2018-11-21 Wednesday

"Crown pacific. Are this is democracy? Now. The world economy. Destroy the economy for our country by being foolish with Saudi Arabia. We are with Saudi Arabia. We're staying with thirty Arabia, by the way, just so everybody. I have no business whatsoever was Saudi Arabia, President Trump doubles down support for Saudi Arabia and the crown prince despite overwhelming evidence that journalists Jamaica show, Shane was assassinated at the direct order of crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman, the New York Times reports top Saudi officials considered using private companies to assassinate enemies a year before the show. She's death. We speak with one of the reporters who broke the story Kronenbourg author of rise and kill I the secret history of Israel's targeted assassinations a stunning book Israeli intelligence officials tried to stop him from writing this book abode conditional perations which folk. Casses on many of the spades targeted killings zone in many other countries this which is this would be seen as illegal or even if country employs these tactics people would be ashamed. Embarrassed to talk about it in Israel. People are proud that. They took these assignments. Then we look at the cost of war nearly half a million people of died in the so-called US war on terror. It's costing the United States. Nearly six trillion dollars. We'll speak with professor Nita Crawford lead author of a major new report from Brown University. All that and more coming out. Welcome to democracy now democracy now dot org. The warrant piece report, I'm Amy Goodman, President Donald Trump declared. He would stand by Saudi Arabia over the murder of journalists Jamaica show, she who entered the Saudi consulate and this temple Turkey Tober second and was never seen again in an extraordinary written statement riddled with exclamation points and subtitled America first Trump wrote, quote, it could very well be that the crown prince had knowledge of this tragic event. Maybe he did. And maybe he didn't exclamation point. That being said, we never know all the facts of the surrounding the murder of Mr. Jamal Koshi in any case. Our relationship is with the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Trump's statement came even after the Washington Post reported last Friday, the CIA has high confidence that Saudi Crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman, ordered PawSox. She's murder. Trump was asked by reporters on Tuesday. Why he? Siding with Saudi Arabia over his own intelligence agencies. Saudi arabia. If we broke with them, I think your oil prices would go through the roof. I've kept him down. They've helped keep them down. Right now, we have low oil prices relatively I'd like to see it go down even lower lower. But I think that it's a very simple equation for me. I'm about make America great again. And I'm about America first. And there I even though Jamaica show, she was an American resident Trump went on to falsely claim Saudi Arabia was investing over four hundred billion dollars in the US Konami while funding hundreds of thousands of jobs, but a new report from the center for international policy found investment from Riyadh is responsible for less than twenty thousand US jobs ear and just a fraction of the investment cited by Trump Trump's defense of the murder of Jamaica show, she drew condemnation from members of congress Virginia democratic Senator Tim Kaine call. The statement yet another fawning prostration to a foreign thorough -tarian some Republicans, including senators Lindsey Graham rand Paul have joined calls for new sanctions on the Saudi Royal family. She worked as a columnist for the Washington Post in a statement, the newspaper's publisher. And CEO Fred Ryan said, quote, President Trump is correct. In saying the world is a very dangerous place, his surrender to the state ordered murder will only make it more. So Trump is placing personal relationships and commercial interests above American interests, and this desire to continue to do business as usual with the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. The Washington Post said on Tuesday Trump denied he has any financial ties to Saudi Arabia. I have nothing to do with disa- stand. I don't make deals with Saudi Arabia. I don't have money from Saudi Arabia. I've nothing to do with Saudi Arabia. I couldn't care less that contr. Fast with Trump's comments at July two thousand fifteen rally in which he declared I like the Saudis, I make a lot of money with them. They buy all sorts of my stuff. He said the Washington Post reports Trump's business ties with Saudi Arabia go back to the nineteen nineties with Saudi lobbyists spending two hundred seventy thousand dollars just last year alone to book rooms at Trump's hotel in Washington DC in Saudi Arabia, human rights groups are warning some of the kingdom's most prominent feminists have been tortured and sexually harassed as they've been held for months without charge and without access to a lawyer Saudi officials began arresting the women in mid may, many of whom had spent years fighting a ban on women drivers in Saudi Arabia, both Amnesty International and human rights. Watch say Saudi guards routinely use beatings electric, shock, sleep, deprivation, and psychological torture against the women prisoners in Yemen. A new report. By the charity. Save the children estimates eighty five thousand children under the age of five have died from acute malnutrition. Brought on by the US back Saudi led war on Yemen. The finding came as residents of the Yemeni port city of holiday said the last two days has seen the worst violence yet in the Saudi led offensive aimed at seizing the city from the rebels Dado resident MAG lab lost four daughters. When a Saudi coalition air strike hit their home over the weekend fifth daughter was on life support in a hospital whose medical staff has mostly fled for fear of their lives. Thank you. You can look at my house. I don't even have a quarter of a kilo of wheat lift. So imagine how it is. When these claims happen. We're already dying of hunger than these airstrikes come and kill us and multiplier problems. We're calling all the honorable people the world all people from all religions anyone who has a heart to stop this shit. We cannot take it. Yemeni's their children are being murdered in cold blood. Save the children says food shipments survey GIS port have already been seriously curtailed by the fighting that any further decline could lead directly to famine the UN has called Yemen. The world's worst humanitarian crisis and a half century with some fourteen million people now at risk of famine more than half the population and Afganistan a suicide bomb blast tour through a gathering of religious leaders in the capital Kabul, Tuesday, killing at least fifty people wounding over seventy others. The bomber targeted a group of Muslim clerics and a wedding hall who gathered to observe the birthday of the prophet Muhammad. There was no claim of responsibility for the attack which was condemned by the Taliban recent similar bombings in Kabul had been claimed by ISIS in California. Homeland security secretary Kerstin Nielsen Tuesday toured a stretch of the US Mexico border wall, separating imperial beach from. Neighboring Tijuana warning members of the migrant caravan gathered on the opposite side that the Trump administration would likely reject their claims of political asylum. Wanting job is not a basis for Silom under US law wanting to be reunited with your family is not a basis for Silom under US law wanting to live in the United States, not a basis of Silom under US law. Homeland security secretary Nielsen added the crisis is real, and it's just on the other side of this wall Nielsen's trip came as the Trump administration says it would begin withdrawing thousands of soldiers mobilized to the board or ahead of the midterm elections. And after a federal judge halted the Trump administration's plans to bar migrants from seeking asylum unless they arrive at a legal US port of entry following that ruling Twenty-nine migrant families will be released from the south Texas family residential center in daily, Texas. Many of them come from a region of Central America known as the northern triangle and compasses El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras. The. Areas marked by wide spread poverty, extreme gang violence and a statement. Amnesty International welcomed the releases as a positive step up blasted the Trump administration over its policy towards migrants writing. It's unconscionable to criminalise mothers fathers and children who've lost everything the administration must immediately abandoned plans to build more detention centers and ten cities. I'm nasty said in Mississippi, we're voters will head to the polls next week for run off Senate election newly surface photographs show incumbent Republican Senator Cindy, Hyde Smith, wearing a confederate army cap and posing with vintage rifle sword and other confederate artifacts. The photos were from Facebook post height Smith published in two thousand fourteen which she captioned Mississippi history at its best. This comes after a viral video recorded just days before the midterm election shows height Smith praising campaign supporter with the words, quote, if he invite. Needed me to a public hanging. I'd be on the front row unquote Mississippi's once considered the lynching capital of the United States and Hyde Smith's democratic opponent. Mike Espy is African American and other Mississippi news federal judge has blocked a harsh anti-abortion law from taking effect the law known as the just stationl age act with signed by Mississippi Republican governor Phil Bryant in March it bans, most abortions after fifteen weeks with no exceptions for cases of rape or incest in his ruling declaring the law unconstitutional US district judge Carlton Reeves wrote, quote, the fact that men myself included are determining how women may choose to manage their reproductive health is a sad irony. Not lost on the court. He said the New York Times reports President Trump wanted the Justice department to criminally prosecute former FBI director, James Komi and. Hillary Clinton the time sites to unnamed sources who say Trump's White House counsel, Don Mcgann, only dissuaded the president after he warns such a move could lead to Trump's impeachment. The Washington Post reports acting attorney general Matthew Whitaker was paid more than one point two million dollars to lead a charity funded by dark money that builds itself as nonpartisan watchdog, even as it worked exclusively to advance conservative causes the charity known as fact or the foundation for accountability and civic trust is a nonprofit that refuses to reveal its funding sources, but one of the funders is known to be conservative billionaire. Charles coke Whitaker worked as the charity sole employee for three years beginning in two thousand fourteen until he moved to Washington to work as chief of staff to former attorney general Jeff Sessions leaders of the US fossil fuel industry news earliest nineteen fifty four the carbon dioxide pollution accumulating in the atmosphere posted growing threat to life. Earth but failed to warn the public. That's according to new research published by Stanford historian, Benjamin Fronta and the journal nature climate change frantic found in the fifties. They American Petroleum Institute commission to study by Caltech scientists which concluded global carbon dioxide levels had risen by five percent in the century. It's the earliest known industry funded research into climate change in the findings led in part to a nineteen sixty five report by president Lyndon Johnson's science advisory committee on the threat posed by global warming speaking to members of an oil industry conference that year Frank Eckerd. Then president the American Petroleum too warned quote, this report unquestionably will fan emotions, raise fears and bring demand for action. The substance of the report is that there is still time to save the world's people's from the catastrophic consequence of pollution, but time is running out on quote American Petroleum Institute. Would instead go onto fun decades of climate change denial while fading efforts to switch to renewable energy sources, the governments of the US? Us and Canada or warning all Romain lettuce recently purchased or currently for sale is unsafe to eat in any form. The US centers for disease control warns the lettuce is at risk of containing dangerous type of E coli bacteria and should be thrown away last spring. E-coli outbreak linked to romaine killed five people sick and more than two hundred others. That outbreak follow decision by the Trump administration to show. Water testing rules crafted under President Obama that could have prevented the outbreak. The former president of Michigan State University has been charged with lying to police. They investigated crimes committed by Dr Larry Nassar, the former USA gymnastics team doctor convicted of sexually abusing hundreds of girls and young women. Police say the former and that's you president Luana Simon lied when she said she told investigators she didn't know Nassar was the subject of two thousand fourteen title nine investigation into a campus sexual assault complaint. Nassar was later cleared by Michigan state. University of wrongdoing in that case Simon resigned last March on the same day. Dr Nassar was sentenced to one hundred seventy five years in prison for sexually abusing over one hundred fifty people Simon faces two felony counts and two misdemeanor charges that could bring up to four years in prison. She's the third current or former MSU official charge with covering up for Dr Nassar and here in New York, which hit fired a leading organizer in the push to release elderly people from prison has passed away from cancer. He died Tuesday at home surrounded by friends and family fired founded the campaign release aging people in prison known as rap when he was released from prison in two thousand eleven after serving thirty three years and fifteen to life sentence in two thousand sixteen interview here onto microscope. Now, he described wraps message. If the risk is low let them go to reasons bit out campaign focused on the elderly is because the present the lowest risk. Recidivism and if parole boards were really concerned about public safety. When a person comes up for release. These are the people who should be released. We actually concerned about mass incarceration. Ho spectrum, but we thought that by focusing on this particular population, it would presume as his voice of reason is show. How? Punitive policy that assume please really gonna monk that's much hate for aid who died Tuesday at the age of sixty nine to see the full interview. Go to democracy now dot org, and those are some of the headlines assist system. Outcrcy now democracy now dot or the Warren pace report. I mainly Goodman, Juan Gonzalez, welcome to all of our listeners viewers across the country and around the world. Despite overwhelming evidence that Saudi journalist Jomaa Hushovd was assassinated at the order of crown prince Mohammad bin Salman, President Trump stood by Saudi Arabia Tuesday in an extraordinary written statement riddled with exclamation points and subtitled America first writing, quote, it could very well be that the crown prince had knowledge of this tragic event. Maybe he did. And maybe he did that being said, we may never know all of the fact surrounding the murder of Mr. Jamalco show. He in any case, our relationship is with the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Trump statement came even after the Washington Post reported last Friday that the CIA has high confidence the Saudi Crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman, ordered the assassination. The spite this Trump repeated Saudi claims that her show he was an enemy of the state an a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. This is Trump speaking to reporters Tuesday. Roy the world economy, and I'm not going to destroy the economy for our country by being foolish Saudi Arabia's this about America. First. They're paying us four hundred billion dollars plus the purchase and invest in our country. That's probably the biggest amount ever paid to the United States. This is over a long period of time. It means hundreds of thousands of jobs, billions of dollars of investment and brought up from claims that Saudi Arabia is investing four hundred billion dollars in the United States is false. A new report from the center for international policy found investment from Riyadh is responsible for fewer than twenty thousand US jobs a year and just a fraction of the investment cited by Trump Sony officials have tried to dismiss journalist your milk Schroeck. She's death of rare unauthorized killing but everything New York Times report suggests the kingdom has sought out private companies to assassinate perceived enemies since the beginning of crown prince Mohammad bin Solomon's rule last week the times reported top Saudi intelligence officials. Close to bin Salman, considered a two billion dollar plan to hire private intelligence operatives to assassinate prominent Iranians, for example, well for more we go to Tel Aviv Israel, where we're joined by an Israeli investigative reporter who helped break the story Ronen Bergman he has just written an exhaustive new book on the long secretive history of Israel's extrajudicial killing program. It's titled rise and kill I the secret history of Israel's targeted assassinations or an end Bergman is a staff writer for the New York Times magazine and senior national security correspondent for yeti oath are note, Israel's largest daily paid newspaper his piece in the New York Times, this headline Saudis close to crown prince discussed killing other enemies a year before kashogi shea staff. Ronen Bergman welcome to democracy now before we go into the secret history of Israel's targeted assassinations. Let's talk about this latest news, President Trump. Standing before reporters and explaining why he will continue to side with Saudi Arabia and the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, despite the CIA saying it's clear that kashogi she was killed on crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman orders, can you respond to this and talk about the history of Saudi Arabia and assassination. Thank you. Before inviting me to the show. The thing that what President Trump just did was the highest level of what the French called the L politic. He took one interest of the United States is he sees it at least to have these huge teams or let us with the Saudi Arabia government and the funding of Utah in put this only one consideration and put aside all the risk human rights, the horrific of operation to kill a journalist in their territory, the counselor the I would say very conclusive evidence suggesting that Heis Saudi officials if not the crown prince himself where deeply involved and said, I just don't care about that. And I think this is the. He's the first one who did that we saw few times. Well, many times in a world politics before. But it's really done in a very blunt way, we have published David pictures, Mark mazzetti myself last week at the New York Times. Bear case this is north peration by one. So the official that is early as March two thousand seventeen more than a year ago the Saudis where pitched by a group of businessmen formula. Oprah thieves of his ralian American intelligence. Israeli intelligence in American businessman who asked the Saudis to fund a two billion project to cripple Iranian economy to create something in the sort of the slowly run contra fear to create a. A huge private intelligence organization that with us black operations to cripple Iranian economy, while they were discussing this in on the Saudi side, the manager of these negotiation with the Jin was general will the series the chief assistant to Mohammed in some of the crown prince two Bs. One of the Saudi officials came to these rallies in America's and said, do you also kinetics they understood him said they knew the kinetic speeds to kill people and said who do you want us to kill it? So we want to take out some Iranian officials. They asked like who? And he answered of we want you to take out fewer rains, including customer Limone, the commodity of the acquits force of the revolutionary guard. This the probably the most important Iranian official the most powerful Iranian intelligence operative in win. The the foreigners said no of the people of Saudi intelligence, the official said, we'll maybe you can recommend this to someone and they recommended them a group of the former special Parisian expert British one in London who might do the kinetics. What this proves is. That is earliest lost early last year two thousand seventeen. The the kingdom of Saudi Arabia change its policy and instead of diplomacy based mainly on bribe on money and various thing very much away from secret peration targeted this assassination. They took a much proactive. In considered in pitched, even private businessmen. This is a very unprofessional move to involve people who are not alone your own forces in these kind of sensitive peration, the ask them with the day, a willing to take the time for all of money, some of the kingdom's enemies. Ronin Berbau wanted to ask you terms of this. This this attempt by the Saudi government to get involved in these kinds of nations. Is it your sense? I mean, Israel as you documented in your book has been practicing targeted assassinations. Now for decades of I recall back in the sixties or even going back further to the fifties. This was a rare situation. Remember, for instance, in the story of of professor from Columbia University Galindo's who the dictator to he you had kidnapped off the streets of New York City a Columbia University. Professor, and he was put on a plane to the medical Republican thrown out of the plane subsequent relief that to assassins who had kidnapped him where themselves killed by through. He'll but this was considered a rare situation back in the fifties. And the sixties can you talk about how your senses that governments are now increasingly resorting to this kind of a fascinating to settle their their political aims of thinking. Now, for instance, of several assassinations we've seen linked to Russian. Dissidents by the Putin government is this becoming an increasing trend across the world. Well, I think we need to differentiate Israel has been using targeted killing more than any other country in the whist post the second World War, but Israel has defined enemies and defined targets targeted killings of either proliferators of weapons of mass destructions all terrorists of we know not you about something very different. This is killing political opponents of I think maybe someone in Saudi Arabia's. So what putting has been doing allegedly at least doing in the last few years, which is killing. Poisoning. Shooting in good, maybe jealous of the of what the Russians have been doing intimidate in intimidating other rivals dissidents and try to do the same. But in that case the operation was done such a mature sweet in such a unprofessional. So to speak way, it was very easy to discover that it's either the south train very hubris thing that they can get away from with with with everything what we see that knowledge. Be ability of the Turkish intelligence to intercept Kohl's in phone conversations and conviction inside the consulate the defect that everything is being monitored. By cameras the way that made a data is being achieved makes operations for terrorist. But also to states for that assessment much much harder. These days and here, we we have the bridge back down the nation. In Turkish intelligence, basically cracking open, the the Bush the peration to kill of. Well, we're going to break and then come back to succession. I'm sorry. We're having some trouble with dropout. Ronin Berkman speaking to us from Tel Aviv, but we're going to forge forward, but we're going to end this segment of back on the lawn with President Trump when he was asked by CNN reporter, Jim Acosta. That's right. Jim Acosta who because of a court order has had his press pass given back to him. He asked President Trump. He's letting Saudi Arabia get away with murder. No, no, no. This is about America. First. They're paying us four hundred billion dollars plus the purchase and investor country. That's probably the biggest amount ever paid to the United States. This is over a long period of time. It means hundreds of thousands of jobs, billions of dollars of investment and brought up at if you think I'm gonna let Russia have that money or more those for those things if you think I'm gonna let China make the military equipment. Hey, China and Russia would love to make one hundred billion dollars worth of ilitary quipping from Saudi Arabia. We have the contracts they wanted those contracts that would be a big fat beautiful gift to Russia and to China. They're not gonna get that gift. Just so you understand about make America. Great again. It's about America. First whether to say was Saudi Arabia. We're gonna stay with Saudi Arabia. President Trump says despite what even the Central Intelligence Agency is telling. Him that the crown prince himself was responsible for ordering the assassination of Jamaica show, shake both an immigrant to this country as well as a journalist columnist with the Washington Post both targets of President Trump over his two years. We are speaking with Ronen Bergman, and we'll continue with him on his book rise and kill. I the secret history of Israel's targeted assassination. Stay with us. Yes. Galilea LA vibe. Irene kalani, this is democracy. Now democracy now dot or the warrant piece report Mamie Goodman with one Gonzales, we're continuing our discussion with his really investigative journalist. Then Bergman author of a stunning book on the long secretive history of Israel's extrajudicial killing program rise and kill. I the secret history of Israel's targeted Sassa nations. It's a book that Isreaeli intelligence officials desperately tried to prevent Bergman from writing they even changed and extended secrecy laws to prevent him from gaining access to historical documents despite their efforts Bergman gained unprecedented access while writing the book meeting with thousands of sources from Israel political leaders massad heads to the assassins themselves. He also obtained thousands of classified documents luminated the shadowy corners of Israel spy agents. The result is an exhaustive eliminating investigation that die. Deep into the targeted killing programs of Israel, which is the SAS naked more people than any other country in the western world since World War Two at looks at the way, Israel's assassination program has influenced America's post nine eleven foreign policy underbush as well as President Obama Ronen. Bergman writes on the book's prologue nowadays when the same kind of extrajudicial killing that Israel has used for decades is being used daily by America against its enemies. It's appropriate to study, the high moral price that's been paid for the use of such power Ronen Bergman we thank you for staying with us, again, we're getting a number of hits on this Tel-Aviv satellite. So we're gonna try to stick with you as long as we can hear you. But in the note on your sources at the beginning of your book, you talk about how difficult it was to get access. You say petition to the supreme court for an order forcing compliance with the law. That was to get you information with. Drag out over years with the complicity of the court ended with nothing but an amendment to the law itself. The secrecy provisions were extended from fifty to seventy years longer than the history of the state, many Incheon bet and Mossad were warned not to speak to you. How did you get access to this information? And what did you find? Thank you, would we exit that core petition to supreme court that day one of the chiefs of Israel intelligence. This was already some years ago. He said Ronan don't worry, you will never get hold of these documents. Because when the state is seventy we will prolong it to one hundred years and just last week Benjamin Netanyahu Israeli Prime Minister. Now, the state is seventy years old Paloga to ninety years. So they are trying to keep these documents away from the public. Fortunately for me. And hopefully, the read the book many veterans of Israel intelligence, Kip till forgot their positions, many documents and share them with me, why do they speak? I think they spoke everyone has her his own reason. But I think that if if there's a common ground for why they speak most of them on the record prime minister of the chiefs of staff, she's massad the actual. I think they spoke because they wanted to tell a story they wanted to tell people of Israel, the people of the world how and why did they take part in these daring of brave and controversial perations? They wanted to make sure of the so many years the dark. They wanted to make sure that their parts in history's being told of some of the told me, I'm telling you stuff that I didn't tell even my wife. In when they spoke, many of them repeated than they were, of course, completely disconnected from on not synchronized with each other. But they they repeated one sentence one quote from the bologna Intel which says if someone comes to kill you rise up and kill him. First. And I think this was said not as an alibi was justification. This was said as to explain the mindset to explain why have they done things that are considered to be controversial if not more than that. Because these people the people that they have killed are considered to be threat to the soul existed of the nation to a two possible risk for a second elation, and they one of these stories to be known, and the reason and the moral reasons and also the effective how effective targeted killings are in the course of history. I wanted to ask you first of all your book is mesmerizing. There's so much detail. And so well written turns the device. Various actions taken by the the Israeli secure of the intelligence of forces. But I wanted to ask you about because you go into the early history, even before the establish of the state of Israel, and the clandestine guerrilla organizations that that were part of the liberation movement of the Israelis back those days, and you say from the from the outset Israeli intelligence from the outset occupied a shadowy realm. One Jason to yet separate from the country's democratic institutions the activities of the intelligence community. Most of it shinned bed and the massad under the direct command of the prime minister took place without any effective supervision by Israel's parliament Knesset or by any other independent external bodies, what damage has been done to the democratic. It's the Touche's of Israel as a result of this almost parallel situation instead of the Seville. Controlling the military. It was almost as if the military or the intelligence community controlled the government. Well, few things I Israel is a liberal democracy in the Middle East, but Israel also faces severe threats and living under the trauma of the holocaust. And I think that the new Israelis Jews lived in Palestine those who came from the holocaust and establish the state of Israel, drew three main lessons from the holocaust. I will always someone. There will always be someone who wants to kill them. The other Jews would do anything to help and third that they need to have Israel as safe heaven refuge, in guarded with whatever possible when you have this at the back of your mind every decade, you'll prime Nemesio chief Ed this theory, not sort of Egypt Saddam Hussein Lovie rock yesterday that Medina. We run when they want to eliminate you co for your destruction take physical actions to do this. Then you left with basically one cruiser. These rallies were left with conclusion rising I pig. Very little tribute to international law international norms and building these two sets of flow one four regular benders in one for the intelligence community and the in the military now these were under strict orders of the political levels. They were not doing whatever they wanted. But the political level did not use any kinds of plausible denial. They actually ordered the use of special perations way be on enemy lines go, viruses, stubble, Taj and edit speak targeted killing in order to achieve goal. Then what are the goals, the goals are to prevent the Knicks war to try and the large gap between one world to another. If. Not to prevent the next war in try to combat the threats to the country without getting into an old battle so kill the enemy at stake instead of going to an all out war because Israel cannot stand. These was forever. You ask about the damage, of course, democracy that adults two sets of law one full regular overt set of law in one secret for the intelligence community. This is this is a problem. This is a highly legalized in moralize problem any led to clashes between these two sets of flow. The people of Israel intelligible with say, yes, we knew. That we are cleaning the sewage and everybody knows what also figured out what we are doing in order to clean, the switch cleanest, which meaning dealing with enemies. But there was no other way to go. Talk about the attempts to assassinate Yasser Arafat, and how how far back they went to the former PLO chairman the multiple times, he Israeli military tried to kill him, you document different attempts book. And if said the hunt for the person who is code named the head of the fish Yasser Arafat was most extensive and long term in the history of Israel intelligence. The dates back to nineteen sixty eight. Shortly. After was appointed just the chief of but the chief of the umbrella organization called the PLO the Palestinian Liberation Organization. And the the idea is really defense was desperate. They were sending Arafa the pillow was sending groups of terrorists from Jordan to Israel. They couldn't catch them. They couldn't catch him and attempt to invade and killed them end up in a catastrophe. And then the chiefs they kinda trust of the Israeli navy came with what he said is a solution. He saw that movie American movie chew in candidate and said, I can do the same. I can take Palestinian hypnotize him Jason Bornstein program him and send him to Jordan to kill sort. And believe it or not the chiefs of Israel intelligence military intelligence, and we'll took that very seriously. They gave him a Palestinian prisoner who fit the profile that the psychiatrists thought would be suitable for such a process, they gave him a training facility with live munition and for months, he trained that person until one night to said, okay. He's he's okay. He's done fully program their Palestinian cross, the Jordan river and after crossing he signal a gun and okay to his muster this Aikawa tryst. And he carried the gun in a walkie-talkie wireless communication device in the psychiatrist said he's now going to kill out. This was something like one AM at five in the morning. The operatives of Israel intelligence receiver report from another agent said that someone Stephen came to Jordanian police station and told the policeman the stupid Isreaeli thought that the hypnotize me. But I was just playing role. I'm loyal to our please take me to to to swell each it to the Palestinian Authority. Now, this is a bit sometimes Isreaeli JAMES BOND. Looks like it's pick to clues oh is a bit of funny story, but the other stores were let's funny try to kill numerous times. And. Ronin today. Alternately succeed there are of course, many questions about Arafat's final death. Whether it was natural or not. Let me just add that they tried many times the people that was nine in nineteen eighty two when Ariel Sharon Israeli minister of defense. Daytime order to take out a commercial airline with hundreds of passengers on board in order to kill Yasser Arafat. But the. Chiefs of Israeli air force rebelled against him. And they wouldn't they did want Israel to be staying in this horrific war crimes, and they didn't want to violate the war of the ethics of war of the of the idea, and they prevented the operations from from happening to your questions to question. There isn't a big unity and few different reports about that. Let me just tell you that a few months before demise mysterious demise, Israel, Prime Minister, Ariel met with President Bush, the White House, the president told mister prime minister, we heard that they are plans that you have plans to kill us that we want you to promise us to promise me that you will not assess it and Errol Sherwood said, I see your point Mr President now president, of course, on the Senate is said I really wish to to promise me that you will not do that to which Sharon said, Mr President you make. A very strong argument. But the president let go until prime minister Cheryl promised in his voice that he will not kill a few months later dies of mysterious disease of and. And I think in time we will have the opportunity to tell the story behind that. In the meantime, the Palestinians are convinced, of course, that the massad though, Israeli intelligence guilty. And what about you? What do you think? I think that in time we will be able to tell the real story behind that. But I think that if Israel done that. The reason to hide the real story was not because of the Palestinians, but this, but because this would be a striking violation to a very clear promise by Rayleigh prime minister to American president. You also talk about only the minute left, but how George W Bush adopted it's rarely tactics. And then you say that President Obama would launch several hundred targeted assassinations. After September eleventh, prime minister, Cheryl older all Israeli to open the door to perform what was later called as a striptease in front of American intelligence and show them everything they have on intelligence collection in targeted killing because he thought this would be the right way. The right move from the American forces intelligence community to go for the war, the global war on terror much that was done by the United States in the years after is based on his Rayleigh experience knowhow in the -nology. I am saying that the US while adopting these tactics also needs to see the moral lesson the moral price that Israel has paid. You know, when you kill someone even if that someone is Satan himself, I believe that someone something is dying in you. And when you have practically thousands of people because of technology because. God nation because of cyber actually thousands of people in Israel have participated directly or under indirectly in targeted killing operations. This is a problem in the most important, I think is that some of his really leaders drew the wrong conclusion from the really remarkable successes of their intelligence services, and they thought that they can use these exotic capabilities to go for pinpoint perations way beyond any lies to kill people in order to solve every problem. Not just technical threats to your citizens, but also political problems also historical problems to hold history by stale in therefore, I think that the the story of the book the story of rice and kill first of the eight years of research. And he said one thousand interviews if there's a lesson is that these operations have technical meanings. They save lives they are affected. But this is a story of a technical success. But also, very very dangerous strategic political failure. Because once you think that that that using force console everything and you don't need to turn into statement ship into diplomacy into a real discourse, we do at the Seri you talk about killing the devil himself. What about when you're killing innocent civilians? Of course, the moral price paid. The price paid for killing civilians for collateral damage is horrendous. But when you come to these operatives in speak with them, and they tell you look we were facing situations in the book consists of many of these really dramatic moments when you know, you have the window of opportunity to kill a HAMAs Jihadist organization the tourists when his Asian who have already sent suicide bombers that already killed hundreds of Jews in Israel, these and you have a very short window paternity to kill him before he sent more suicide bombers and he's walking only amongst villains. He's walking in populated areas. He's walking with his wife. The operative. When I asked them, why did you permit collateral damage? They asked me back. So what would you do? If you do not kill him. You know that many of your own people will be killed tomorrow. What do you do? See what we see now and very kid, and we have to go what we say. Now Ronin is how many hundreds of Palestinians have been killed defenseless. People in protest, and in the end, the only prime minister, the Israeli Prime Minister who was assassinated was assassinated by right wing, Israeli fanatic. I agree. And the fact that he was not stopped was because nobody thought that anyone could do that. No. He's rarely. Well, Ronan we wanna thank you so much for being with us for an end. Bergman Isreaeli investigative reporter has new book rise and kill. I the secret history of Israel's targeted assassinations. Ronen? Bergman is a staff writer for the New York Times magazine and senior national security correspondent for yet. I dunno his piece in the New York Times link to Saudis close to crown prince discuss killing other enemies a year before the show. She's deaf. This is democracy now. Well, that can thirty seconds on the costs of war. The so-called war on terror has cost the United States close to six trillion dollars and half a million deaths and f- ghanistan Pakistan, Iraq, stay with us. Two. Baghdad by the dean the system opera. See now, I made me Goodman with one gun solace. We end today show with the cost of America's endless war in the Middle East. As a new report reveals nearly half a million people have died from violence in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan since two thousand one when George W Bush declared a war on terror in the wake of September eleventh. This war on terrorism. Is going to take a while. And the American people must be patient. It is time for us to win the first war of the twenty first century decisively. So that our children, and our grandchildren can live peacefully into the twenty first century, President Bush referred to the wars crusade seventeen years later, the war in Afghanistan is the longest in US history. A major new report from Brown university's cost of war project has found that more than four hundred eighty thousand people have died from violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, including soldiers militants police contractors, journalists to monetary, Ian, workers and civilians several times as many people have died indirectly because of water loss sewage and other infrastructural problems and war related disease. The wars have uprooted twenty one million, Afghan Iraqi, Pakistani and Syrian people who are now refugees war or internally. Spliced cost of were also Alexa to ballooning financial costs of the wars with the US spending close to six trillion dollars through two thousand nineteen including veterans benefits medical treatment over the next forty years interest cost would another eight trillion dollars in the next four decades. This comes as President Trump has signed a six hundred seventy four billion dollar military budget in September for the two thousand nineteen fiscal year. For more we go to Nita Crawford. The director of costs of war project author of their poor chest out both on the financial cost and human toll of the so called global war on terror professor and department chair of political science at Boston University. Professor crawford. Thanks for joining us. Tell us what you have found at this point. We found that after seventeen years these wars are still mate. And we have plans to keep going. We're gonna spend probably another hundred billion over the next five years that is in addition to the nearly six trillion that we've already spent an obligated. And professor Crawford. In terms of the American people largely see these wars as winding down, obviously as more and more US troops are pulled out. But yet the the death toll especially places like Afghans STAN seems to be on the increase. That's right in Afghanistan. The number of suicide attacks by militants or the fighting between the militants and the forces of the US and the Afghan military and police is increasing in some areas. And in fact, the US military sees this war has basically at a stalemate. And that's in part, why the United States is move toward negotiations with Taliban. Can you talk about why you did this report and the astronomical costs most importantly, human lives? But also the financial. Well, we wanted to highlight both the cost to Americans in terms of US soldiers and sailors who've lost their lives about seven thousand people. But in addition remind Saul that contractors, more contractors, in fact, have died because of their involvement in these wars than soldiers, and sailors, and that of course, many thousands of civilians have been killed wounded and displaced many millions have been killed wounded and displaced. Generally, what happens you mentioned the contractors? But again, the recent the American public really hears about this is that even the the the contractors that are brought into places like Afghantistan and Iraq, generally employ people that are not Americans. And so basically the toll is internationalized and the American public doesn't really get a sense of what's actually going on. Right. A lot of these wars is now sort of externalised or displaced. So think about the contractors as you've said there from other places, but they work for and are paid for by US corporations. But other things are externalised, for instance, to healthcare costs of the veterans. Yes, billions are paid for the veterans in one hundred. I'm sorry. The three million US veterans at our home. Now, some of them are on disability. That's being paid for by the US government. But but some of those costs are actually born by the families of veterans so much of what is spent we actually can't account for because it's it's these costs are borne by other people. So when people are injured or killed in war zones. Yes, we hear about it. But but that's just the tip of the iceberg. I think in terms of direct and indirect death. I mean, you talk about we hear about it. They're so little coverage, for example of what's happening Afghantistan. He had according to a Forbes report, the US actually dropped more bombs on ghanistan this year alone than since the war began the report finding quote, according to us air forces central command, data, manned, and unmanned aircraft. Release five thousand two hundred thirteen weapons between January and the end of September two thousand eighteen. What do you do? Go ahead. Yeah. These these wars are actually leaving the war zones in rubble, and you haven't mentioned Pakistan yet, but the United States is also been through drone strikes and other action fighting in Pakistan since two thousand two in order to chase and defeat Taliban Al Qaeda now I says so the war zones are actually expanded from what we thought they would be in two thousand one two thousand to two thousand three now the US our forces are operating in between eighty to ninety countries all over the world. And the relation between war and climate change. You say the Pentagon's the single largest user of petroleum. That's right between twenty ten and twenty fifteen. The Pentagon used about one hundred five billion barrels of oil on average each year. They've tried to economize because obviously that's expensive, but it is the single largest producer of greenhouse gases in the United States and abroad. Briefly. How were you able to conduct this research, given how much how little attention the US government or or the Afghan government actually pays to accounting? The toll of people killed as a result of these of these battles and these attacks, right? Well, the things have gotten harder. For example, the special inspector general for Afghanistan, reconstruction who investigates view us operations free looking for waste fraud and abuse has not been able to release to the American public figures that were previously known about the number of Afghan soldiers and police killed in these wars. So the Afghan people know that their soldiers are paying a high price in death and injury. But the American people don't know that we don't know how large even the Afghan military is there other pieces of information that were previously available which have. Essentially disappeared down a memory hole or then. Sort of give it to us in a barrage of information sort of a fire hose of information. So we can't pick out the relevant details. So in a sense has become harder to do this. These reports because there's more information withheld Nita Crawford we have to leave it there. Co director the cost of war project will link to your report professor and department chair political science at Boston University. Tune in Thursday Thanksgiving Day for special broadcast with renowned dissident and linguist Noam Chomsky in the twin threats of nuclear war and climate change the election of far right army, captain in Brazil, and how US foreign Palestine Latin America's led to the migrant crisis on Friday will bring you our exclusive report breaking the media blockade in Moroccan occupied Western Sahara, four days and occupied Western Sahara. A rare look inside Africa's last colony that's Thursday and Friday democracy now specials democracy now produced by Mike Burke. Dana guys are nursing Carla wells, timing. We're enough Jon Hamm. Jon Raby carrying Honey, I'm Amy Goodman Consol.

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@DarkSecretPlace - A Brief History Of Killing

Dark Secret Place

1:36:47 hr | 3 months ago

@DarkSecretPlace - A Brief History Of Killing

"At discount tire you can shop online and get the same trusted advice you get from the stores then just book a time. That's convenient for you. When you get to the store you can stay safe with a new touchless experience discount tire. Let's get you taken care of am six forty live or on the iheart radio app. It is the place. Brian sits in. Here we're the world's melting down boys that really melting down tonight locally and internationally we'll get to all of it this hour by the way a brief history of killing. We'll get to that. But first of all he heard cluttered stafani and talk about About forty five minutes ago. The chatter broke a nine. Eight was called over the lapd One of the ap that's an officer involved shooting and they gave the location as the residents of the la district attorney Which is still jackie. Lacey until george gascon. Disastrously takes over but So anyway all we know was either either the the Security detail assigned to her or something. We're waiting for more details to come out and so this went out over. Lapd air nbc. four Has people on it. And i have. I have Queries out so you'll pardon me. If if they come in. I'll interrupt whatever it is. We're talking about depending on the seriousness in by the white bottom. Line up front They the da's office does confirm. Jackie lacey is okay not a problem but they're not giving us any more details than that so as they come in. We will update you. It's evidently the the da's office. Investigators are the ones who provide physical security for jackie lacey and and obviously physical security for the district. Attorney of la is required as we've seen over the past year different dramas play out and tonight not that. I'm tying the two things together. But there is a group of protesters now on their fifth night outside of Getty house out of Garcetti's mansion mayoral mansion and but so far in obeying the law. That's a completely different deal. the remember. It was a year little year ago when they came up on. Jackie lacey private property and her husband came outside legally armed. And i still don't get what he did wrong Except i i'd have to re I don't. I don't believe he pointed the weapon. I learned he was he was a retired. Da's office investigator by the way. So but anyway as we learn more we will pass on more to you and Next hour a little some revamping of some covert information monday. We start a three week safer at home. Stay at home lockdown. You've heard here in the news today. That black friday in person shopping was down fifty q percent from last year but ecommerce has now set a record and they're expecting monday to be a record as well. So some may ask is the director of la county public health and amazon stockholder. Some may say that's none of your business and what are you implying. And some may say back all. I'm just making a joke. But wouldn't that be something to find out that public health officials and elected officials are benefiting directly from this to be bipartisan. Some may report some may reply back. Yeah well what about that. Republican senator from georgia leffler her husband benefited from From the explosion in zoom subscribers and then some might reply back. Yeah well across party lines. And if we find out after the fact that there were covert profiteers. We're going to treat him like war profiteers and then some might say yeah. We're on agreement though so anyway. That's what some might say. That's not an official position of Of kfi nor me. I'm just passing on what some might say. Yes the next hour. Get into some of that little a little bit more of Of of that. And then something i need to tell you about the new castle virus and how everything i needed to know but la county public health. I learned last year which is part of what informed me remember. There was a month called january and remember. I did that sort of war of the worlds looking forward to date when we can look back on the covid. A response in california part of what informed me was my personal experience with la county health in regards to a virus that hit flocks of chickens and how la county responded to that. So i'll i'll tell you i'll rewind and give you some history that may explain lot about the department that's running our lives at this point. The unelected department that is running our life. Also as i go back on my own twitter feed a you go back to march and i i was struck by how many people were surprised by public health law and one tweet in particular with something. I said on the air back in march. Which is you're going to be surprised. you're you're probably unaware the breadth and depth of public health law during an emergency and it turns out. Many many people are because so far everything they have done is within their mandate as long as public health emergency. So if you're wondering what can we do about it. These are not regular laws. These are these are the laws that are written as say that. Have blood on them. These are the after the fact. These are the laws you right after pandemics that a a effect a civilization. Because we're now having to make decisions not with individual anecdotes no matter what. Npr thanks good. Radio sounds like but now decisions have to be made on cohorts young people middle aged people old people and all that and and sadly i think there were things picking and choosing. But we'll get to that a little later on a brief history of killing. Let me start with this yesterday morning. Tehran time in the suburb of tefron called absurd. Dr most africa fucker desire dodger. Most factored zadeh drove ambush. Bodyguards drove passed the truck. That blew up. The bodyguards stopped or the car was disabled. Men hopped out and out of nowhere and began spraying the rear left seat of the car with automatic weapons fire. There was either three of them or there was three thousand of them. There's no from account by what we do. Know is dr most in fuck ray. Zella was dead on arrival to a hospital. He was met evect. He is the robert oppenheimer the father of the iranian bob which they don't have but he's still the father of the iranian bomb. He was in fact named in two thousand eighteen by prime minister. Benjamin netanyahu in a now famous so youtube video when he was laying out what the israelis learned when they lifted an archive of iranian nuclear program. Emails documents plans blueprints etc. And i'll play that clip but just take my word for it. He he named Doctor muslim fucker zodda as the head of the not only the nuclear program but the new program of satisfying the iranian nuclear deal by setting up over program that they would admit to and dismantle and then simultaneously establish a covert program which these rallies maintain continue to this day. So anyway the bottom line is there's no mystery. The israelis killed him. It's not the israelis are suspected or anything like that. The iranians are blaming the israelis because the iranians know full. Well this is. What the israelis do because this is. Why the israelis do this let me let me give you the The philosophy underlying assassination of nuclear engineers and nuclear engineer instructors at tehran university. The philosophy is this because we cannot go. I won't even go into this news break until you know this until you have this one piece of knowledge. This is a direct quote from the director of massad mayor doggone appointed by sharon in two thousand three given the mission to prevent iran from successfully manufacturing atomic weapons and he told the journalists ronen bergman the author of and kill rising. I'll get it. He told the author of the book. The book just came out a year ago about the secret history of israeli nuclear assassination. He he gave him this analogy. He said listen. A car on average is made up of about twenty five thousand parts. I can remove one hundred of them and the car won't operate anymore or i can just kill the driver. And that's that is what mayor de gone set in two thousand eighteen after after he had been fire by netanyahu by the way and then if someone says back well yeah but they're just gonna get another driver. Well the answer is okay. I'm going to kill the driving instructor because there's an existential threat to israel from a nuclear iran. So yes of course. The israelis did the santa history of this. It will it will edify you a brief history of killing when we come back. Save is forty is to place live everywhere on the iheart radio app. A brain suits here by the way. Our number three seventy diversity of the sort of what. We recognize the beginning of the so-called battle of the chosin reservoir one of the most amazing chapters in us marine corps history. So we'll dive into fact and myth seventy years ago tonight in one thousand fifty in career. Pop culture was here in los angeles. Something just happened at tyson roy. Jones junior is gonna kick off here the pay per view. We're not paying for it. But what are the cards was former. Nba slam dunk champ. Nate robinson versus youtube star. Jake paul this is turn jake paul. He was a disney stars. A kid and now as youtube guy with twenty million subscribers and he lives he used to live like in calabasas or something. His neighbors hated him and he does stupid videos. Where like he rolls a golf cart and stuff to get twenty million subscribers plus cells merge Any any guesses what he makes per month. Tony are by the way zack. I've remembered you did you. Did you get a brand injury per month. What do you think he clears with all those sales. How about this just youtube just youtube. I'm gonna go with per month. Five hundred thousand. Oh you're over. Well you know what last i checked the best. I can tell you a six months ago. He made about one hundred thousand per month. Just a few to lao. Yeah because you know why because the world is a fireplace. That's what you should learn going forward in the entertainment industry that the world is a level playing field and a fair place. So for some reason these two are the undercard and jake paul this this weasley little white kid. What do you think big guys been lifting. And he's been working out boxing. He does not doubt former nba slam. Dunk champ. nate robinson in the second round forty-three seconds into the second. I mean knocked him out he. He was out on his feet and he fell forward. Under the face and snoop. Dogg is part of the play by part of the color team of tonight's bouts. When soup dog started singing his robinson was knocked down the first time he started singing. Making thank go steph. Or from jake coney got three go down the first time and snoop start singing. Jesus bob talk about rain. Police does a standing eight count clears at robinson looks robinson but he goes back in the mix with his jenkins with logos big ball. Oh child so anyway. That is what kept saying logan because he has a younger brother named logan. Paul who's who is a eat equal amounts of third plus money so So anyway that's the most thing that's happened. So far in two thousand twenty. That youtube star knocked out former nba slam dunk gymnasiums. So there you go by the way. I want to get this straight because i can't bring them in this book right now Enough if you want to get it by kindle or whatever but israeli journalist ronen bergman wrote a book called rise and kill. I and i was telling you the the analogy that former mossad director mayor doug on had about a car being made up of twenty five thousand parts. If you've got trouble of removing certain one hundred it'll never operate but why do that. Well you can just shoot the driver and that set. He begins the book by the way by quoting the babylonian talmud of several jewish religion the the babylonian talmud says when a man is coming to kill you rise and kill him. I you know there's not not a heck of a lot of turn the other cheek in the talent. It was written during a tough time in a tough neighborhood. And that tell medically that is how you justify what. The israelis have done no no other than none other than john brennan. By the way who was not the director of the cia during the obama administration but he was in the national security. Inner sanctum. He denounced the which clearly the israelis killing the iranian. The head of the iran zodda and he didn't do that. One the israelis. We're doing it during the obama administration when they began doing the targeted killings or assassinations. A against instructors and instructors and staff of tehran university. Because they the israelis clearly. If you've been listening to this show or my private podcasts. I've been telling you this for a couple years. The judging simply by who the targets are the israelis have have instituted or re executing the same strategy that the employed against saddam hussein short of the final strike on saddam's reactor the israelis began assassinating saddam nuclear scientists in the seventies. I'll tell you about one particular episode when we come back because it illustrates how. How the israelis Do this do this do this until they cannot. Because there's a a lot behind the scenes. I'll tell you about it and also Late yesterday news broke that the us s. nimitz has now been diverted into the persian gulf. There's a cover story for that but it might also indicate that something bigger is on the rise in the assassination in tehran when we come back More on that a brief history of killing cave insecurity live everywhere on the iheartradio app. It is the dark secret places. I hear a little more than twenty four hours. A from the apparent. Assassination of the iranian. Robert oppenheimer calling him. It's it's it's kind of like. He wore two hats because his other job was actually running the operation to mask and cover up the covert nuclear. Plant is as. I've been telling you since two thousand seven. The iranians have two parallel programs of something that they learned from saddam next door and from saddam learned from the israelis and We're dumb and naive. We don't believe that they don't have such a thing. Anybody when benjamin. Netanyahu revealed in two thousand eighteen the treasure trove of the iranian nuclear archive that the israelis physically stole out of tehran including a cd roms and he outlined the program. It was very wonky. He went on for thirty minutes. I i watched all of most of the american media. Didn't know exactly what you're looking at. But he specifically gets to the point in the archive where he explains and this again. This is after remers is two years into the trump administration the the iranian nuclear deal the ink dried on it for years before. And so. here's netanyahu showing that. That's all part of the plan to make it look like They're deconstructing their nuclear program. Sony way he identifies the director of the nuclear program by name. And i mean listen to how specific he is when he talks about the guy who was killed yesterday. Rector of the national security council following the new directive of iran's minister of defense the work would be split into two parts. Covert an older key. Part of the plan was to form new organizations to continue the work. This is how dr musson fuck is a project about. Put it remember that name. Fulke's remember that name And that goes for american news people trying to pronounce that name by the way. Remember that name. So i had a discussion with tony. Tony engineer so called employee of the month because he wanted to. You want to know what what is. What's that name. It's fox fuck rodney you hear. Netanyahu said fa k. h. a. d. e. h. That's true liberated from from farsi. Fockers day but But tony tony has as all of us doing radio we have. We have a reflex when we hear anything starts with far or far. We're reaching for a certain button the work. This is how dr moosa fucking etta project. I put remember that name fox. Oh so there. You go fuckers. Let's go back in time. There was a guy named saddam hussein. And he actually took over a iranian. Pardon me in iraqi nuclear program. Saddam didn't invent the nuclear program. He just fell in on it when when the bath party came to power and he was the head of the bath party but saddam wanted a bomb. Now he wanted one in one thousand nine hundred seventy nine. He wanted it. One thousand nine hundred you want. Let nineteen eighty-one right up to the point where. The israelis launched a raid from israeli soil and bombed the enrichment reactor that saddam had paid cash to france for and that was the end of the iraqi nuclear program for then if saddam hadn't executed and imprisoned half of his own nuclear engineers. He may have had a bomb but these rallies knew what he was up to and they they knew that a connecticut attack from israel probably wasn't technically feasible in nine hundred seventy nine or even one thousand nine hundred and so what they did was the next best thing they said. Well what makes a nuclear bomb is at the uranium is that the centrifuges is at the guys machining. The explosives no before any that happens. Somebody has to engineer it and somebody has to teach the engineers how to engineer it. Let's find those guys and let's do what we can do and kill them first for the record. The israelis attacked the core as rarely team in france broke into the french nuclear authority and they attacked the core and put the iraqi program backed by six months. But in the meantime they were assassinating iraqi engineers and a one very famous case in a gypsy. Who was working for saddam. Because the enthusiasm to go to work for saddam's nuclear authority was it was somewhat mitigated by the fact that if he didn't produce you might wind up in one of saddam's jails. How did saddam. These guys who were studying by the way in american universities real simple now he called you north carolina or duke and he said hey are you the same guy with that family and volusia and some family down there in some unpack. Oh well. I know where they are. And if you don't get back here and join my nuclear program which by the way you'll be handsomely rewarded privileges car riverside house the whole thing but you better produce a weapon. The americans did it from a standing starting in two and a half years. You're telling me we end so we already have the blueprint. Let's how we got people to to come there but There was an egyptian and a lot of killing. That massad did was in france and there was a gypsy named yahia el mashad. He was a respected egyptian nuclear engineer. Remember for a long time. The head of the atomic a international energy agency was doctor. Muhammed baradi in japan. And the the. Jim sent a lot of people overseas specifically to france to learn how to operate a nuclear power plant with the be is on sunday getting one because noel country so anyway i'll mashad was approached by massad. He liked going to paris quite a bit. And you'll learn wine minute. While he was in paris massad made an attempt to recruit him. Now remember. There was peace between israel and egypt. He flatly rejected their offer. And he liked to prostitute named marie claude. Miguel he rejected musaed's offer and by the way when massad says hey it would be really fun for you to be our man on the inside will reward you and sort of the unspoken message. There is that part of the reward. Is that you get to live. And when you reject musaed's i offer. Don't be surprised if they have a counter offer so these rallies knew all about him and they they had approached the prostitute. Marie claude miguel and they said through a cover story Hey listen we need to know about this guy. Can you lure him to the hotel. And then have your way with him and then leave on some pretext anyway. She does this name. The israelis are saying it was something like. Oh yeah. we're old friends. We're we're going to surprise them out to dinner but anyway let's start with this. You take him around the world. If you know what i'm saying but then you know hall on adler she returns to the hotel room and she finds yahia stopped many many many many many times stabbed to death in the room. She goes to police and she tells them what she knew because she didn't want to be a suspect. And that a few days later she's walking on the street and paris and she's hit and killed by mercedes which speeds off and never seen again. He was not the head of the iraqi program but he was one of the most influential guys who spent time outside of iraq ultimately they had to bomb the french reactor because saddam was making too much progress. They could not assassinate quickly enough and more importantly they couldn't get into iraq. Why well not a lot of iraqi jews. Not a lot of a lot of cover for a arab jew in iraq. In fact saddam did his level best to vacate the country of Iraqi jews of which there were many at a certain point so the israelis were up against the problem by the way they don't have that problem in iran So i'll tell you about that when we come back because Therein is a local connection. the assassination of doctor muslim. Let let me let me let let let say irt and over a key. Part of the plan was to form new organizations to continue the work. This is how dr moosa fucking are the head of project about put remember that name. Fulke's trying i'm just trying not to dump the second button anyway back with more than a brief history of killing here on the dark secret place for the twentieth of november of two thousand twenty five forty racks. Empty forty point with live everywhere on. The iheartradio advocated teases plays brief history of killing talking about the musaed's a very successful campaign of assassination. What we in the united states legally we do it we but we call it targeted killing. We can't say assassination. 'cause we say session assassination sorted by letter of the law. Well let's illegal and we do targeted killing. I mean what else do you call. Killing bin laden assess nation. He was not any direct military threat. He chose to live in a house with his family. I would adopt a j dam. And i would have said six tarantulas google. It anyway. So-called employee of the month and that month is running out tony. I think i have your job security in hand. I think we're good. I have Netanyahu saying it this is how dr moosa and a project put it. Remember that name. He's a day now. We're all safe right. I think we're all good. So i know i'm not gonna to now you've got me now. You got me gun shy. So now i'm going to say dr mohsen. You know. anyway he was assassinated yesterday and thanks to my twitter. Friends sierra charlie. Some new details are just coming in and these are them. I've been giving you some some of the past. How massad did this with saddam's nuclear engineers. But then they got to a point where you could not assassinate them fast enough for to prevent saddam from getting a new so they did plan to plan b. which was put israeli aviators at risk launch from israeli soil to the maximum range That sixteen with drop tanks can make it to the to eight nuclear facility dry and then column one guy after the next. Drop your bombs on the french reactor the reactor. The first guy punched a hole in the dome right then. The next five guys dropped their bombs through the hole in the dome it was an extraordinary mission anyway. Fast forward to a couple of hours ago someone claims to have this is from intel doj which is So a source of very happy with on on twitter and he says Per a source with the inside knowledge of things in iran a source of obtained leaked information from sources close to the iranian government and the revolution regard. These are the details of the assassination of nelson. Right of molson morrison area. Dr molson is number one. All members of the team involved in the assassination underwent special training courses to squad consisted of sixty two members participated in the assassination. Twelve of them were in the field responsible for carrying out the operation fifty others provided logistical support. Three the team used a hyundai santa fe and nissan likely the blue nissan truck that was blown up and four motorcycles for the team involved in the assassination new every single detail of when and how the bachelor thread of when and how his protection team would move. And now that on the day he would be travelling visiting his villa in the city of absurd. Iran's capital tehran. Thirty minutes before the arrival of beep convoy the team cut off all power to the city point. Six one hyundai santa fe with four passengers for motorcycles to cyprus and a nissan were booby-trapped. Waiting for beeps at as convoy to pass the entrance to the city of absurd. His convoy consisted of three vehicles. The team waited for the first car of the convoy to pass through the entrance. And then when the second car. His car entered the operatives began to open fire the nissan truck. That was booby trapped with explosives. Detonated targeting the third and final vehicle in the convoy once the nissan exploded twelve. Operatives opened fire towards the guy's car and the first car in the convoy according to the leaks the operatives removed him from his car shot him and made sure he was dead before the team fled the area which is by the way so massad. The wounded in his team who are transported to emergency services ended up transferred to hospitals in tehran. None of the twelve members who in the field in the shooting part were wounded or arrested teams. Involved had extensive combat experience like the expertise of special forces in advanced armies possess. According to this there was a penetration of iranian intelligence. You think which allowed the assassination team to accurately supervise his movements. His his His plan so there you go all re tweet thread again. This is This is a source who is generally very very accurate All right so why him why now. He had been on the list since two thousand ten. Why why now while. Now we gotta get into Israel listening to the united states about what's best for it and what what just happened on november third. Anyone pay attention That and more coming up our to a brief history of killing on the dark suit replace tonight. Kfi am six forty live everywhere on the iheartradio app. At discount tire. You can shop online and get the same trusted advice you get from the stores then just book time. It's convenient for you. When you get to the store you can stay safe with a new touchless experience discount tire. Let's get you taken care of then fed. That's a fact been credit card purchases. Give me cash back cash fat. No one else gets these rewards to what in turn sir benfits powercuts. Rewards card isn't just for military members. Anyone can get cash back on all purchases. You've ruined my favorite song. Pen fed credit union visit penfold dot org slash power cash to receive any advertise products. Become a member of pen. Fed insured by ncua forty live everywhere on the iheartradio app. It is replaced. Replace steve gregory live vergara hills a jackie lacey's residents and he calling back here after top of the hour anyway. Steve their callback if you The top aaron user there was a a officer involved shooting and it was evidently a da investigators. And that's those are the guys who provide physical security for district attorney. Jackie lacey at her house and garage hills especially lately and there was a one of the investigators of fired at least one investigator fired a weapon. And steve is there. And i'm getting assume there's oppressors something that why he hung up anyway steve. If you want call back Callback anyway back to a brief history of killing is you heard clouds debt clubs and say the supreme leader in iran. Vowing some kind of revenge out re remember back in january when general qasim soleimani was killed They vowed revenge and what they did was sort of a symbolic firing of six or seven missiles at the us base called anaconda in iraq. But they actually because but believe it or not the the those ballistic missiles can be fairly well targeted and they intentionally had them impact in a almost a straight north south line avoiding the housing areas. So that was sort of symbolic striking back. But it wasn't it was real now Because part of the dynamic in in iran was half the government disliked qasim selemani He was sucking the oxygen out of every single room. You walked in and possibly getting iran involved in stupid wars. So so that's why there hasn't been real retaliation. This is different. The doctor in question. Dr mohsen was the brain bug from starship troopers. He was the guy who had the overall control of the nuclear program which everybody from the civilian government side javad-zarif foreign minister. He wants to nuclear program. They want to be a nuclear power. The only way they can guarantee that the regime survives. So that's that not just a revolutionary guard but the iranian army and the rest so They know full well. It was the israelis and as a detailed last hour. The this is this is how these rallies do business. Now here's the thing Between the assassinations and a full on strike like they didn't iraq. There's a lot of political tension behind the scenes and back in two thousand eight and two thousand nine prime minister netanyahu after the end of the bush administration when obama was elected. Netanyahu said we might need to do the kinetic strikes sometime in the next eight years and this obama guy won't approve that without american approval. We don't have cover in the un. So if we're going to do it we gotta do it now. While the time his head the massage director massad mayor duggan was against that because he was having success assassinating iranian nuclear engineers instructors and technicians enough. That it was having an actual effect on the program. There were mysterious bombs blowing up in tehran. Academics were leaving their apartments and their way to tehran. University and two men on motorcycles would drive up to them and attach a bomb to the car and drive away quickly and the bomb but blow up. He was having success because not only did kill the instructor again. This is the guy who teaches the teachers. Not only was it killing the nuclear experts but it was deterring others from entering the program. So is that. Steve is that steve. Okay that's all right I can't bring your. can you bring it up. Zac see burglary is at granada hills the residents of da. Jackie lacey and wait. Wanted me to try it. I hate doing this on the air. I gotta tell you. I don't know how to bring the phone up on there. Can you bring them up. We got him on hold. We'll get a minute second. Oh well. I mean we'll get right now okay. He's calling now. we got to. Don't talk to him now. can you bring up. let let's try real quick Hey brian how you doing pal. You are and granada hills. Jackie lacey's residents right. Yeah right down the street. yeah so So here's here's what i found out. I was able to as a crime spree or many crime spree in palmdale a carjacking crime spree. Looks like a couple of people presumably two guys Were stealing cars and making their way down and ended up in granada hills. Now the only missing piece of this puzzle is how a member of jackie lacey's security detail in led investigator and then. That's not absolutely yet. That was an assumption made by another outlet but they are reporting that it would appear that a member of security detail somehow intervening And there was a carjacking was happening down the street from here and the individuals crashed the car. They were was as they were trying to get away. So let me rewind the so this is just a i guess. A random thing that that originated in beyond bill and it just happened to to end in granada hills real. Yes yes it has. From what i'm told now by two different agencies. That has nothing to do with jackie. Lacey or associated. Jackie lacey. this is just merely a date was characterized me and say mini crime spree that started earlier today and ended in granada hills with With a crash of a vehicle As they were trying to get away. Yeah probably not gonna get a lot of sympathy from the prosecutors Disturbing the the county slade though. There's a new regime coming jerk stoned. Well well so are their arrest in chaps in custody and the whole deal What we're told us the two individuals got away so there does so the way this breaks down is since it started in palmdale so the. La county sheriff's department will investigate that component of it but then lapd's robbery homicide division as we refer to it as hd is investigating the officer involved shooting since da investigator opened fire in la granada hills in the city of los angeles. Yeah right so they're going to investigate that component of it. But i'm told that it's also very likely that because of the scope of it. The county sheriff's department. We'll probably take over. The whole thing is that ron calmed down. And it's not an assassination attempt on jackie lacey. It's just random l. a. street time there you go right well so so code for code for yeah mets lapd and share thurman for I get that that means end of call. I guess for basically clear perhaps crafts over Well i'm code for. I get a break but see gregory. Thank you very much for being on the scene and clearing that up for us you gotta pal take care saturday. All right back in the second it is the dark place will continue with the brief history of killing a. Why wasn't this guy whacked in two thousand and eight. It's very political. You're involved because it involves america and it may involve the The next seventy two to one hundred hours And i'll tell you why when we come back forty five. Were on the iheart radio app. Franks in here till eleven. The seventieth anniversary of the battle of chosin reservoir legendary episode in marine corps history. We'll talk about some interesting side notes that you probably don't know about it. You may even have been in the marine corps. You don't know some some of the things that you're gonna learn next hour So just in review steve. Gregory was there in the neighborhood of da. Jackie lacey's house. There was a officer involved shooting earlier just couple of hours ago and evidently has absolutely nothing to do with jackie lacey. Just a remarkable coincidence of random crime here in the southland. A crime spree beginning in palmdale ending their in granada hills. We'll we'll probably know more tomorrow and the the to scofflaws are at large evidently but this is not anything to do with Jackie lacey just happened to happen with absolutely no sense of irony in the neighborhood of the county prosecutors residence So again ron supreme leader vowing revenge or the slain scientists here. Here's what what's going on this dr. As netanyahu says doctor awesome was on the hitlist back into the night. And and at the time netanyahu wanted to go right to the kinetic strikes on iran and it would be israel alone probably with the With the blind eye turned of the gulf arab states because by two thousand and eight. They were on israel's side that iran should not have a new and they didn't believe in in any of what they were hearing about a upcoming nuclear deal with this newly elected president elect obama But the bush administration was saying well if you feel strongly enough about it then we'll support you but the hatem assad the director massad meyer mayor de gone Disagreed vehemently with netanyahu. and he said Let us continue with these targeted assassinations. And that's what ultimately got him fired by the way because he when he came into the job and to three prime minister ariel ariel. sharon said. Remember what you guys did to. Saddam scientists in the seventies and early eighties until we had to hit to eighth. You do that to the iranians because that the longer you do that the more successful you are at that. The longer that puts off having to do a larger mission into iran and possibly of the ripples being far far more widespread than what happened in eighty-one remember when reagan was told that the israelis bombed saddam's nuclear facility. Reagan famously said. Well boys will be boys so In in response the iranians are claiming There must be revenge. Would they wanna do a two for one do israel and the us. Why would they do it now with the With a lame duck president. Well i just answered. The question did not the. Us nimitz has been diverted into the persian gulf Because a carrier air group is in spite of what the air force things still more effective than a b. one because they're still three five hundred americans in iraq remember now trump is to ask for a draw down to twenty five hundred but the americans are still in iraq and iran knows where they are and iran has the iranian backed militias. That are in a rocket. It was there a parallel army. They're like the ss to the the The former vermont and remember the guy in the car with a general qassem. Soleimani was the head of the iraqi pm. Us popular mobilization units so it was a two for one. We killed the head of the iraqi pm us. They're still there. They're still sitting around barracks the as irregular army thousands of them and the iranians are paying paying the money But the iranians know something. They they know that the guy in the white house right now wields executive power until noon on january twentieth. And that this guy on the best of days was unpredictable and would Would not react like barack. Obama which was entirely predictable. Trump has a chip on his shoulder about iran and iran. Understand right now if we give him a green light to do whatever he wants between now and noon on january twentieth. We may not be alive to see biden. Take the oath of office. Should we do it or not and look at that the. Us took a hard right and it came into the persian gulf So if cooler heads prevail and because now that a guy like qassem soleimani is is eleven months dead. They probably will. The iranians won't do anything in regards to the us. Not at least until biden is president because they're reasonably a shirt short of viewing it as a test. That biden won't react like trump probably would react and that their assessment of trump is well now with nothing left to lose and all that power. We may not have a navy left if we if we kill one american in iraq. Why don't we concentrate. On the israelis maybe a target in europe or something like that Because we're in that weird gloaming that weird periods of twilight where you have a president who just won't lost a reelection can. That's dust has settled on that on noon on january twentieth. Barring any medical problems. Joe biden is going to be president but between now and then constitutionally there's one commander in chief and he can yes legally united states military because he is president until that moment. It's not like you start taking away. The coast guard and then the marine corps and then the air force or something. I don't know he's in charge of all of it right now And we're now in a period kind of two thousand and eight or netanyahu is saying listen. The a nuclear iran is an existential problem for israel not america but for israel. There's no way biden stiff arms israel. Let's just do this and probably with the approval of the the king in saudi arabia. More on this. Do you know that the first israeli prime minister visited saudi arabia. You probably wasn't in the news but it was a public event. And so that that happened before a doctor molson was assassinated. I'll tell you about that. The pieces are coming together. I should say if i am six. Forty replace live everywhere on the iheartradio app. We'll get back to a brief history of killing Here in one second but snoop dogg. I wish i'd pay per view. And then recorded this tyson versus roy. Jones fight snoop. Dogg is part of the play by play part of the color i mean and And he likens it to to two of his uncles fighting the backyard barbecue. Mike tyson all over store. Visit my uncle's finding barbecued pack talk back anyway. Away but snoop with the with the keller. I'm alright so the as i say i've laid out the case. You understand the history of the of of israel relying in assassination in regards to people who make existential threat towards israel like saddam trying to get a nuclear weapon. There's a side show by the way. I talk that talk button. The connect pell dot com dark secret. Place podcast Another another example of this was in the late seventies. There was a canadian. Got a guy by the name. Dr gerald bull and he was a genius a physics genius. He had he had invented through a us army. A program called the high altitude. W was it was harp. But it's not that harmonic conspiracy theory hyun on her thing They they were researching away to get satellites into orbit shooting amount of giant super cannons. And they actually. Did some test runs and it was feasible. The money ran out and gerald bull wanted to fund that project and he went to south africa during the arms embargo and he developed they artillery system for the south africans and indigenous artillery system. That was the best in the world and saddam hussein with the customers of of that artillery system and then saddam having been introduced by the south african said. I heard you're working. You'd like to work on a big super cannon that could shoot things either into space or hundreds of miles in any direction lease said s and saddam said. What a coincidence. I need such a canon and i have money. Never mind but i'm gonna shoot in it but could you possibly shoot a nuclear weapon. And yes was the answer. And the israelis had penetrated the program. They knew dr jill and they went to him. He had a residence in belgium. And they said we heard you're working for saddam hussein and you should probably not work for saddam hussein. It would be more fun to not work for saddam hussein and he said. Yeah yeah yeah by. And he went back to and they had a half scale babylon gun and they test fired it and the israeli said right. That's it and this is at the same time they're killing saddam's nuclear engineers and scientists in with prostitutes and parents so dr gerald bull nex. We here He is taking his keys out in belgium. And he's going to unlock is apartment door and he has an armful of groceries and bags and he's rather professionally shot in the back of the head with small pistol neat drops a deer. And that's the end of gerald bull. The lesson there. One massad gives you a friendly suggestion. It's not a negotiation so They they've been working. They take iran far more seriously than they took saddam though saddam got further along what the iranians are afraid of what. The israelis are of that the iranians have learned. The lessons of lost in history. By the way is that months before the israelis bombed saddam's facility at to eighth the french reactor the iranians tried to bomb it unsuccessfully. They didn't really know what they were doing. They hadn't practised wasn't nearly as precise as israel's but when the israelis hit that that reactor the iranians were just as relieved as israel is remember. They were kind of at war at the moment with with rock. So we we fast forward to earlier this week. Benjamin netanyahu went to riyadh and met face to face with the crown prince mohammed bin so on an remember Israel signed this recognition agreement this diplomatic recognition agreement now with the the emerets with qatar with bahrain disorder. Officially saudi arabia is weird position islam. Wise about recognizing israel but br but meeting the very first israeli prime minister to set foot in. Saudi arabia is a de facto recognition. That we're all on the same page. Iran's not gonna have a nuclear weapon so here's a quick and dirty l. expand on this but these israelis of unique advantage when it comes to penetrating security and iranian academia and it's this there was quite a diaspora from iran prior to the ayatollah. Arriving from paris. There were some iranians. Who stayed behind. And said i mean some wealthy iranians who had worked for the shaw profited. By by being one of the shah's toadies stayed behind and they regretted it but there are a lot of iranians Now they're persians. Of course who smelled the coffee and they got the hell out with their money while they could before the ayatollah got off that air france. Seven forty seven. By the time the ayatollah came down the stairs in the air. France seven seven. They were already going to open houses. In beverly hills glendale unit and those were the muslim persians iranians there was a huge diaspora of persian jews. Who did not want to wait around and see what. The religious fundamentalist did to other religions. the persian jews zoroastrians the world. I a monotheistic religion there's been religious oppression throughout iran except for everyone but the shia muslims. Even sonny's get oppressed by the central theocracy. But the persian jews didn't win around and they had two great choices where to land one was israel and the other one was well. You're living in. Israel has an advantage in that they have this huge cohort of people who speak colloquial. Anak scented farsi. Not just any farsi but tehran. Farsi academia farsi when they were suppressing protesters back in two thousand nine. They brought in police and soldiers from way. Outside of tim ron. Because they didn't understand the farsi that the students were chanting. There is a genus difference. But the israelis have a treasure trove of former iranian academics who left with their families and came to israel and so they have a unique advantage of matched only by the united states. I don't know for taking as much advantage as israeli do but so the iranians know this. They're aware of this. They've tried to purge the ranks of anyone who have who has any connection to anyone who lives in israel but they're very good at covering their tracks. 'cause they know that their relatives were endanger. Plus as railly's don't hesitate in using foreign countries false passports so there's the iranians tonight are very very mad that their guy was got to Because they promised him that he would never be hit. He saw he has seen some of the people underneath them get blown up in tehran and he said i'm taking a false name and moving to finland and they said no. No no no no. You're running the program. Don't worry we know we're doing. This is our country will protect you and now. The israelis have shown a short of sending one hundred fifteen's we will do whatever it takes. We will put at risk dozens of operatives on the ground in iran to get to anyone we need to. So what will iran do most likely scenarios right after this is by. Am six forty lives everywhere on the iheartradio app desserts. Replace six in here until eleven. Next hour hour three were hollick's the seventieth anniversary of the battle of chosin the legendary battle of chosin reservoir a cornerstone of marine corps history and mythology Some some obscure facts and thoughts as i raise a glass to double dogs in the frozen tundra seventy years ago of north korea. Well so what do the next seventy two to one hundred hours more likely look like between iran and israel who very possibly absolutely Are the party responsible for the assassination of the the head of the iranian nuclear program. Dr mohsen is dead and you go and you pronounce it at your own peril non on the radio so though the rubbing revenge remember they vowed revenge for the assassination of most in apartment of qassem soleimani. The head of the terror could force back in january and Many many pearl clutches in an american media like joe scarborough insisted that next morning that We trump had basically assassinated the vice president of iran. And now as i said that. Friday filling in for gary and shannon Probably more champagne. Corks popping iran then at the pentagon because we wanted sulejmani dead for a couple of years. Bush was afraid to do it. Obama was afraid to do it. And trump was not as long as sulejmani was on foreign soil and remember. He just landed in baghdad. So this one of the iranian intelligence protection countermeasures is. They don't let their nuclear scientists lead the country. They learned the lesson. They said yeah. We noticed that that went saddam's nuclear engineers were ever. whenever they visited paris. They wound up dead They went to a hooker stabbed to death and then hooker was run over by a mysterious car but the lesson there was well. Don't go to france to buy a reactor because saddam negotiated with shock chirac for buying that reactor. His engineers had to go to france. That was the achilles heel. The iranian said all right lesson learned. Let's enrich the uranium with your iranian centers. Make them here. Let's by the uranium mining here in our own country. Let's find it. But let's make this an indigenous program because that seems to be kelly seal. The israelis will kill you if you go overseas so no conventions. So what what does the next Seventy two to one hundred hours look like probably nothing. The iranians will have a funeral. It will be well attended hundreds of thousands. Maybe millions will attendant. Because you're you're being nationally compelled to do it There will be crying. And gnashing of teeth and branding of garments. The whole thing will be calls of revenge against israel and the great satan and the whole thing but only thing be done iran after silly money they had to say face somehow but that was us doing it. I don't know how you say face. And what you shoot it israel to save face i i don't know and also the wild card for the iranians number one deterrent is not will israel do. It's what the hell will trump to he. He doesn't have to worry about reelection and he still controls the. Us has nimitz and the us. Air force. And there's more combat airpower floating in the persian gulf on this piece of us territory made of steel called the uss nimitz than there is in oliver on the air wing on the nimitz has more power than all of iran. Now you throw in the us air force Ashore at al-udaid airbase bahrain qatar kuwait etc. And the be ones can be there. Twelve hours or the b fifty. Two's we've already demonstrated that we've been doing that for years. And so the. The iranians know that the iranians note. Don't pick a fight with this guy because they would only need one hundred hours. They wouldn't land anybody. They just blow the living crap out of us and then this guy is no longer president and he hands a mess off to biden and so so what has happened in the past week and a half that secretary state mike pompeo visited saudi arabia visited israel. Visited the emerets Then benjamin netanyahu is the first israeli prime minister to visit saudi arabia. The kingdom of the custodian of the two holiest mosque in mecca and medina the first ever prime minister of the zionist occupied country. Now they're calling in israel forty eight hours later. The head of the iranian nuclear program robert oppenheimer veran is dead mohsen and so the us nimitz divert some the persian gulf supposedly to protect americans who are still in iraq. And that's where we leave. Your around is going to do anything in in the next because they're not capable In the next week or so But they do not what deters them the they do now that the united states is prepared to retaliate immediately. And there's nobody in the white house who's going to say maybe we should take a deep breath and think about this. So that alone i think is the best deterrent All right number three It is a seventieth anniversary november nineteen fifty november twenty seventh in one thousand nine hundred twenty seventh twenty eighth of the official beginning of the battle of the of the chosin reservoir one of the most storied chapters marine corps history We'll take it apart bit by bit. We come back the back story and the long lasting effects Seventy th anniversary of the battle of chosin reservoir our ever three right after this. Kfi am six forty live everywhere on the iheartradio app. Am six forty. It is our number three of the dirt. Secret place were hollick live everywhere on the iheart radio app. Pride suits here until eleven. It is the twenty eighth of november. Two thousand twenty and that makes it sort of according to official histories the seventieth anniversary of the The official beginning of what has come to be called the battle of the chosin reservoir a legendary chapter in the storied battle history of marines united states marine corps the battled the chosin reservoir negative goes like this a small group of marines twelve to thirteen thousand at the far reaches of their logistics chain almost into china the very northern edge of north korea in november of nineteen fifty after successfully pushing the invading north koreans out of south korea and outflanking them at the amphibious landing yet In sean in september of nineteen fifty. Now just two months later are about to win the war. The united nations police action as truman called it by pushing the north koreans into china and resolving the situation. But then. I don't know where the chinese enter the war without the without fanfare or parade or even announcement and they descend one of the harshest winters. It a hundred years on the korean peninsula and force a retreat by the marines. All the way back to the sea of japan and in doing so. The marines inflict horrific casualties on the chinese. People's liberation army The marines extract a all their wounded. They bury their dead when the half to but they leave the fighting formation and leave the chinese with a with a sting with a wound that they'd never suffered before that that is ultimately with a few changes in the narrative that is effectively. What happened the approximately thirteen day battle but This hour. I'll go a little deeper. Listen explained you the larger context. Why were the marines really surprised by the chinese. Why was douglas mccarthur. Surprised that the chinese renting the war and in the big picture What are the chinese learn. In their first large encounter with a proper western army with artillery and air support and And it cetera. First of all the place. The korean peninsula had been occupied by the japanese since nine hundred eleven Since they conquered it from the imperial russians and the korean word for korea is chung gene and the japanese can pronounce that and so they called it chosen and everywhere on the map where it said c. h. a. n. g. j. I n gin. The japanese when they transliterated their language pronounced chosen they rooted in english as chosen and so in one thousand nine hundred eighty. The un forces led by the united states and general douglas macarthur they distributed maps to everybody on the inside the british commonwealth brigade. Us marines us army and they had japanese pronunciations in english. And so that is why what is pronounced by koreans chung ching Is pronounced by americans and japanese chosen and it wouldn't have worked otherwise because the survivors of the battle of the chosin reservoir. Call themselves The the chosen few From frozen shows ins. let's see it works literally on that All right so the brief back story is this. There was this thing world war two and at the end of it By agreement a potsdam. Stalin entered the war against the japanese ninety days after the german surrender. Which was may ninth right. Ninety days later happened to be the day after the second atomic bomb on august eighth so it kind of looks like you know. The russians are piling on or something but it was by agreement. With very very large. Japanese army in manchuria and china and the combat hardened red army was switched rapidly from europe. back to eastern russia there along the pacific and they defeated the japanese in pretty short order and it wound up that both forces the united states and the russian split The korean peninsula along the thirty eighth parallel The russians rapidly installed a puppet government led by a young man by the name of kim. Il-sung a who point in fact was born in russia. He was a captain in the red army. He was a dedicated communist. He spoke perfect accented russian. He was the perfect guy to be the communist front of for for the russians there in north korea what was renamed the democratic people's republic of korea the dprk by the way three of those are lies and the last one is is true meanwhile in the south the united states installed a South korean strongman by the name of syngman rhee south. Korea was hardly a democracy but Then again it was hardly in a position to be because the japanese occupation of korea from nineteen eleven to nineteen forty-five was draconian. It was Atrocity-filled horror the korean language was banned Korean athletes at various olympics had to compete as japanese. They tried to erase all traces of korean culture. That was what you got. When the japanese conquered you you can compare notes with a vietnamese and the filipinos and the ties and the burmese and etcetera. Because they only had five years taste of it and and the chinese as well The koreans had a more than generation. And so what they left behind was not exactly a society that was prepared to go to the ballot box and consider decisions and mail in their ballot and Recount them or whatever ripe anybody bottom line. It's not like south korea at the time with some shining example overnight of a democracy but fairly rapidly the russians identified a weak spot here and they felt that the american commitment to south korea was not particularly robust and that in the the growing prosperity of the New war generation coming home getting jobs. Having babies in america on the verge of coming out of the wartime rut the economy beginning to boom. It was felt that. The time was ripe in june of nineteen fifty to invade south korea in a lightning advance with the north korean people's army and By the time it was over probably in five or six days There wouldn't be any stomach in the west or this brand new united nations that they had to To oppose us by quick note the south koreans effectively had a well armed. Sean d'arme right. Not an army in any real sense. They hadn't been trained and barely equipped. The north koreans on the other hand had the inman. Goon the inman. Goon were the korean contingent of mouse. Red army they were young men who fled. Japanese occupied korea With the only land route. They could. They could get which was into china. Some of them fought for chungkai shack in the nationalists. Many of them fought for mao. All they had to do is sit there. And listen to the communists bs and they got three hots cotton uniform and a gun. And so there was a battle-hardened contingent of north koreans who were ready to lead the assault into south korea which in june of nineteen fifty with russian advisors rush russian. Command staff russian radios. They executed special reconnaissance order number three. Which is what they called it. They invaded south. Korea catching American forces lazy and fat in japan completely unprepared to go to war. All right so the battle of chosin reservoir backstory and some of the things. Maybe you didn't know back in a second here. Seven years ago tonight November twenty eighth twenty pardon nineteen fifty the dark secret player number. Three warhol ix kfi am six forty am. Six forty is darker place. Our number three warhol hollick's looking back seventy years ago. Tonight at the twenty seventh and twenty eighth of nineteen fifty november of nineteen fifty northeast correa. Us marines begin a desperate retreat thirteen day battle against the surprise attack by the chinese people's liberation army. Let's let's go back to nineteen fifty. This is british Pathway news at the end of the battle in december of nineteen fifty. This was a newsreel in movie theaters wrapped in the mountains traumatizing reservoir twenty thousand british and american troops automated in isolated pockets spice scouting akron lowest. He got when six thousand marines ambience supplies destroying behind them prepared to fight through to qatari ten miles away with fifty thousand ribs lining at qatari. Five thousand marines are in under enemy fire babylon and short line. What did he say. Twenty thousand twenty thousand troops. Well i'm talking about the battle of the chosin reservoir. The number is often misunderstood Was a marine show. Of course it was a marine corps show and the The division commander was a marine the first marine division one last time marines in terms of divisions that were about thirteen thousand marines. How however how do you get twenty thousand. Well the the british guys right Chosen was also a us army show and all by the way the commonwealth brigade the british Forty royal marine commando was involved and they acquitted themselves in the highest traditions of the royal marines. And so that was the big picture that you had a lot of. Heavy army tank battalions there and it wasn't just the marine show that being said. The marine corps has a has taken chosen under its wing as a chapter in marine history. But to be fair there were separate actions extraordinary actions as part of the retreat effort by the us army that were along of As part of the larger Tenth army that was on the the eastern axis of advance in north korea and then of course the commonwealth brigade. My own uncle bud was a young left tenant in an antitank tune in germany in june of nineteen fifty When the in the canadian army when the canadians began Sending a part of the canadian forces in west germany with the british army of the rhine be a are to korea to fill up the un mandated forces led by general douglas macarthur anyway. So back to june of nineteen fifty like you said in the last brick The north korean people's army battle hardened by years of fighting the japanese under in the people's liberation army under Chairman mao now have been back in korea for a couple of years and nineteen fifty nine hundred fifty they salt into south korea. The us army was unprepared to go to war bottom line. It was five years after the end of world. War two combat experience was no longer down there at the platoon leader and even company commander level Up in the majors and lieutenant colonels and hire the battalion commanders and higher Furthermore general douglas macarthur. Who was the head of the. Us occupation japan didn't exactly keep a combat edge on the on the occupiers on the eighth army there. In japan in fact field exercises were rare and they were characterized by dozens and dozens of japanese civilians. Doing the cooking and the weapon cleaning and in other words bottom line. The army got fat and happy and it was not really ready to go to combat. Furthermore truman in the national security act of nineteen forty seven which established the us air force on the cia. And also truman. In that era desegregated the military specifically desegregated the army the twenty fourth infantry division was a colored division that was in japan and truman didn't desegregate army. Macarthur didn't listen to the order. The us army in germany desegregated the us army in kind of the united states desegregated in japan. The occupant occupying army did not desegregate And so Macarthur started the day already in violation of the president's orders the first. Us army units that went to south korea to try to blunt and slow the north korean onslaught were woefully prepared. They were badly lead and they were probably outgunned unequipped and they were certainly out army. The coordination of american ground forces of trying to make a fighting retreat with artillery. Wasn't very good. The one thing united states had was overwhelming air power. The north koreans didn't bring close air support or bombers with them There were of course. The world's first Jet to jet. Combat the mig fifteen making their combat debut over north korea but rarely going south so as north korean army advanced to to the south of surrounding the americans They faced for the first time. Huge amount of american firepower of the united nations. In the meantime authorized the un mission with the united states in charge. And that means jenner. General douglas macarthur in charge. So it's now Late june of nineteen fifty coming into july and the north koreans have surrounded. The un forces led by mainly americans around the southern port city of poussin or bussan and it was at this moment that douglas mcarthur possibly had his last great idea. And it was this. We have the bulk of the north korean army down south Ready to take a kill shot on these surrounded. Un forces in the city of pusan and the story poussin perimeter which lasted for weeks. Now's the time for me to take the marines to the west coast of the korean peninsula. Up to the port city of inchon and surprise the north koreans from behind with the first marine division landing amphibious louis and so in september of one thousand nine hundred. Eighty a brilliant stroke the us marines land behind the north koreans quickly cut off supplies and it blunts the offensive and the north koreans begin to fall back into north korea in disorder In disorganized groups in no way. Was that a organize retreat. Which brings up an interesting subject. That is organized retreat. I'll tell you the difference between disorganized. Retreat and organized retreat and. Why why the battle of the chosin reservoir as a failure in the big picture goes down as they win for the. Us marines right after this. The seventieth anniversary of november nineteen fifty The battle of chosin reservoir. It is the dark sacred place. Brian sits in here till eleven. Am six forty is dirt secret place. Remember three were looking into some obscure little bits about the famous battle of the chosin reservoir marine corps legend and deservedly so seventy years ago in tonight a the night of november twenty seven twenty eight is generally regarded in american military histories as the when the hidden chinese people's liberation army Set upon the marines up in northeast korea. Right on the verge of the un forces kicking north koreans actually out of korea and winning in early Showdown there in the cold war but when we When we last left the conflict macarthur had brilliantly landed marines. In the north korean rear the north koreans began breaking and running in complete disarray over hundreds of miles back north over the thirty eighth parallel back in north korea. The north korean capital of pyongyang was liberated by us marines. It remains the only cold war communist capital that was ever liberated by the west spoiler alert. They got it back anyway. The marines on the combined you enforces eighth army a thrust to the west and And the east had pushing the north koreans all along the way to the point where american forces were actually on the yellow river Awaiting orders to either go into china or not. Meanwhile mao knew full well that he was not going to allow this buffer state that he really really enjoyed being there to collapse and suddenly have The forces of evil capitalism right on the border of the infant people's republic of china right and so Mao said to the people's liberation army show of hands. Who wants to make me smile and go into korea as part of the people's volunteer army the pva and of course on order. Everyone raise their hands and so Just so that you know what's about to happen is that the united states and the un forest is overwhelmingly fought from november nineteen fifty on. We're fighting the chinese. The people's liberation army they just rebranded themselves as the pva. The people's volunteer army. Well so as it happened. The chinese began infiltrating in to north korea in october. And in fact they were hanging out in manchuria. They were awaiting re equipment with Equipment and gear suitable for winter fighting mao without warning order them into korea before most of them could be outfitted and so they went into korea with effectively. Chuck taylor converse rubber soled shoes and Cotton padded uniform. They were in no way shape form equipped to survive a long time with a hazard logistical system. But they had been there since october and in fact the the one korean division that was in the east with the tenth army began capturing chinese soldiers not north koreans because the north koreans were retreating and complete. Disarray it was uncoordinated. It was headlong retreat and they were surrendering left and right because by october the temperature was dropping especially at night but now the south koreans were capturing chinese and these reports and some of the prisoners were actually sent back to eighth army a g. to the headquarters and and when the reports got to douglas macarthur that it it appeared that the chinese were doing a little more than sending onesies and twosies it appeared that entire units entire platoons were surrendering to the koreans and then the us army because they were starving and freezing and they say they're part of a much larger army and macarthur said that can't be because that's not in my plan in fact folks by november of nineteen fifty the push north was renamed by douglas macarthur. As are you ready operation home by christmas. You talk about operational hubris. That's it in a nutshell. That's like in hotshots the charlie sheen movie when they have operations certain death or John criers fighter. Pilot nickname was dead. Meat never operation home by christmas. Pardon me if my cynical meter is maxed out okay. so Disregarding heart intelligence like this in the face of it happening all along the front is criminal neglect. And it's what led to by the way. Truman justifiable firing douglas mccarthur And so you have. The south. Korean intelligence pipeline the the commonwealth brigade the army the marines and then out west the other un foresee other led force heading north all capturing chinese across a broad front Once is coincidence twice as happenstance. Third time's as third. Time's enemy action. A you know something is up. But officially we say that the battle of charleston reservoir began with Bugles whistles on the night of the twenty seventh of november nineteen fifty. Just after thanksgiving. The chinese had infiltrated many many dozens of miles around the furthest advance of the marines which happened to be at a reservoir called the chongjin reservoir. We pronounce it and read on the map. See chosin reservoir on the left and right side. The army and the marine corps were there. The chinese descended from the hills and attacked night after night. Now by the way contrary to Even what eyewitnesses say about human wave attacks The chinese attacked in compact dense battlegroups. They didn't just come down. Like ali elliott's free or dodgeball. But they did attack in huge groups on american positions knowing full well that their only advantage firepower wise was a number of human beings and the attacks came at night because when the sun came up the american advantage of artillery and air support took over and the chinese overwhelmingly. Their number one casualty producer was american artillery and air support so now talking about retreating in good order there was a saying from out of world war. Two the russians came up with it. We confirmed it and france and nineteen forty four. The only thing more dangerous than a german attacking is a german retreating. The germans made the russians pay for their advance into eastern europe. The germans were so good at retreating. The soviet red army lost far. More men advancing and victoriously pushing the germans back to germany. They lost far more men on the attack than in nineteen forty one when the germans initially invaded likewise in france in june and july of nineteen forty four the germans technological advantage but numerical disadvantage was matched by the fact that they were so good at retreating. And keep in mind. We had air superior air superiority in the summer of nineteen forty four. in france. We decimated the germans from the air but they still chewed up the us army. The british army the canadian army and the polish brigade so well so effectively that nato years later based the defense of west germany on the german retreat from france. So there's a right way to retreat and there's a wrong way. The north koreans had done the wrong way of retreating and it became complete disarray and it was up to the chinese to pull their their bacon of the fire. So the chinese do and the chinese had never faced a competent western military and the marines with Some of the worst environmental challenges you can imagine. Began a fighting retreat. That is in the textbooks to this day of As how you do it back with more the conclusion of the battle of chosin reservoir right of this Seventy years ago tonight. November of nineteen fifty. If i am six forty it is the dirk replace our number. Three live everywhere on the iheart. Radio app twenty-seventh november nineteen fifty two the thirteenth of december nineteen fifty battle of the chosin reservoir in present day north korea. The chinese end of the war. They have been infiltrating into north korea since october. They were captured in large numbers across the front. Macarthur chose to ignore the conclusions. Even of his highest intelligence staff there in tokyo by the way mcarthur fought the war from tokyo was where the un force headquarters in the us occupation army. The eighth army headquarters were. He occasionally went to career. But not often. He wasn't a real Shall we say lead from the front kind of chap. He was no rommel so the chinese have entered war and sometimes so many of them come at a marine and army positions That the the only reason. Us marines are overrun. Because they've run out of ammo. There were many many many Episodes of extraordinary bravery that we may never know about because So many units were run by the chinese in those initial hours and days of the attack until american. Commanders could organize a effective fighting retreat. Meaning you come up with a route to get back to the ocean in this case How m- how known port and you coordinate your air support and your artillery So that you make the enemy pay for advancing on you. And that is the difference between an organized. Retreat and a disorganized retreat. Now keep in mind. This was a record. Winter american forces did have a adequate gear for the winter. But if you've ever gone winter camping and this is something i've done as a backcountry skier. If you don't prepare for the coal there's nothing more demoralizing. And i say this as someone who's been in combat in one hundred and twenty degrees fahrenheit nothing is more demoralizing then feeling the warmth. Leave your body in the nevada army guard. We used to drill. We used to shoot our mortars february at six thousand feet in the middle of nevada of the fallon naval air station. and boy. let me tell you you could separate the wheat from the chaff. The guys who didn't come prepared who didn't read the packing list They were effectively ineffective by saturday at noon because the coldest shot was minus twenty fahrenheit and that means diesel freezes right well. The lowest temp recorded during this retreat was minus forty five Dead bodies froze within an hour and still had to be recovered stacked etc the ballistics of artillery change in cold weather because the actual Propellant that shoots the the big bullet down the long long barrel Performed differently and for most of the marines they had to learn on the fly because keep in mind in world war two. There's really not a you can't find an episode where the marines retreated the marines of course called it a fighting withdrawal but in the annals of military studies. It's called a fighting retreat and so for that didn't institutionally have mastering the skill of an effective retreat in mind cause remember. The marines did fight the germans. The us army did but not not the army and the pacific in any way whoever fought the germans was out of the military except for all the reserves who were called up but the marines didn't have institutional history of retreat nevertheless. Luckily people had books written and the marine commander general smith. Who said we're not retreating or advancing in a different direction Masterfully charles party. Oliver p smith masterfully Used the marine corps aviation naval aviation. Us air force aviation and commonwealth aviation on a daily basis To absolutely pound the chinese Spoiler alert the chinese loss. Far more man in this episode between october and december thirteenth twenty per one thousand nine hundred eighty. They lost more men from the cold and from air strikes artillery than they and by the way Disease than they did the actual ground combat. So the marines and the army culture a quick plan which was. Let's get the hell out of here Bad weather came in. And you know. Some of the fighting was happening up to three thousand feet. Four thousand feet and on days when the cloud cover prevented anything but artillery. The chinese attack during the daytime. It was a masterful fighting retreat. The marine corps has absolutely every reason the world to be proud of it. It was absolutely a marine corps. Show but as i say along for the ride totaling twenty thousand thirteen thousand marines and then about seven thousand us army in about three thousand commonwealth troops Chief amongst them. The british royal marine commandos The chinese showed up at the battle with about one hundred and twenty thousand men. Plus those are their own numbers They had ten divisions of our party that about twelve divisions of ten thousand men each plus support but they had very little logistical support for their people because that was not the kind of word they had fought against the japanese For twenty years or against the nationalist but in the end the marine corps and the combined forces bloodied the knows. The chinese severely chinese. Commanders were relieved Marine commanders were promoted army. Commanders were promoted. Medals of honor were conferred and in the end the combined retreat force lost about one thousand men killed in action. Chinese estimates are a between fifty and sixty thousand chinese estimates. We estimate even more doubtless because their tactics were pretty wasteful. but also they They attacked without air support air superiority and they didn't bring her artillery so it wasn't really a very competent way to advance but Don't ask them marines. Who were there because they lost a lot of man and it changed the way. We thought of that war in korea. Many many people are asking. What's this thing for. Are the chinese in it. Now and it change the nature of the war In the summer of nineteen fifty three in armistice was signed and blah blah blah. It's twenty twenty and there's still an armistice in korea see seventieth anniversary. I raise a glass to my marine corps. Brothers you have Justified pride in the battle of chosin reservoir. This is The dark secret play tomorrow night for super bowl sunday. Kfi am six forty live everywhere on the iheartradio app discount tire. You can shop online and get the same trusted advice you get from the stores then just book a time. That's convenient for you. When you get to the store you can stay safe with a new touchless experience discount tire. Let's get you taken care of.

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To Kill or Not To Kill

Skullduggery

1:08:34 hr | 3 months ago

To Kill or Not To Kill

"This is sarah scenic hosted the serial podcast. I wanna tell you about our new show nice white parents. Reporter hana joffe. Walt spent years looking into this one middle school in her neighborhood. She must've gated the school's history and finally realized could put a name to the unspoken force that kept getting in the way of making the school. Better white parents. How white parents can mess things up for everyone else without even knowing it. Nice white parents has made by cyril productions new york times company. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts vladimir putin's russia assassinates its enemies by injecting them with poison. America under the past. Three presidents has killed those who threaten it clinically by pilotless drums from the air. So what to make of the recent controversy over israel's assassination of iran's top nuclear scientist possibly by a robot. How does it square ethically politically and practically in terms of achieving. Its intended result. And how will it impact the incoming biden administration's hopes of reinstating the iranian nuclear deal. We'll talk to ronen bergman an israeli journalist now with the new york times. Who is the foremost authority on his country's long history of targeted killings and to his times colleague. David sanger about biden's new national security team including a surprise choice for defense secretary on this episode of skulduggery because people have gotta know whether or not their president's across while i'm not a crook. I told the american people i did not trade arms for hostages my heart and my best intentions still tell me. That's true but the facts and the evidence. Tell me it is not. I did not have sexual relations with that one will be no lies. We will honor the american people with the truth and nothing else. A michael isikoff chief investigative correspondent for yahoo news. And i'm dan cliven editor in chief of yacht. Lagos you'll have to think that in any other time the story of the israeli assassination of that nuclear scientists. Most in fact sawday would have been getting a lot more attention for multiple reasons. You know the potential to really exacerbate tensions in the mideast. The whole question of what the whether the iranians are going to respond and how they would respond. What did the trump administration know beforehand about this assassination. Did it give green light and finally is the fucking great story about how this came about so much. You want to know it certainly cinematic but given what everything. That's going on kobe. The election the transition going on. It's almost like forgotten. It is an amazing story on all levels. This whole question as to how it was actually done. Whether it was a robot machine gun operated by from a satellite and artificial intelligence on the one hand seems like something kinda fanciful out of the movies. But on the other hand as i think. We're gonna hear when we talk. Ronen bergman this amazing israeli national security reporter. Who's written some of these stories for the new york times. And has this new book out. Rise in kill i. The israelis have been pioneering these kinds of assassinations for decades now. Now we don't know for sure that this was an israeli operation but it certainly has all the hallmarks of the mossad and this question is to whether it was actually done by this remote robotic machine gun or whether there were assassins on the ground. Who took out this. Nuclear scientist is actually an interesting and relevant part of the larger. How geopolitical story and about. What's going on on. I mean you know look robotic assassins. It does seem like something out of the movies. But you know there have been signs of this emerging for some time in terms of the larger debate about you know robotic warfare that you know we may end up in a in a world where robots are on the frontlines trying to take out other robots which You know could make for some interesting video games if nothing else. Yeah but and and of course it does raise all of these interesting kind of ethical and moral questions the ethical choices you know pitting democratic principles against in the case of israel the need to defend its its citizens and in this country. We have a executive order. That outlaws assassinations from killing sola mani the head of the iranian as luminary guard ex exactly and the administration wouldn't call that assassination. They would call it a lawful act of war. It's a pretty fine line. Yeah i mean. But look i mean in in the war on terror as i pointed out in the introduction. You know we've been killing people by drone for years now. It was kind of controversy for a while for a few years back in the obama days but it disappeared from the political dialogue in washington. Once trump took office even though the drone strikes can have continued in ten. Yeah the one one. Last point i want to make about about these remote killings is it takes. It takes away a crucial element of warfare. Look on the one hand you know. It is true that these drone strikes were more precise and there was less probably less collateral damage than if you had gone in with with the airplanes and bombed village airplane not necessarily more precise than actual targeted killings on the ground. Nine point of poison to do that. But on the other hand there is something antiseptic about these drone strikes where you have someone pulling the trigger. The virtual trigger from thousands of miles away and then being being able to go home for dinner with his or her family and not feel the immediacy of the consequences of what you've done and does that. You know kind of take a loss into a sense that you could have wars without all of the terrible tragedy that go along with wars. Because it's so far away so but look i mean. I don't think we should go too far on the robotic side of this because and. I'm sure we'll discuss this with ronan. Rafferty don't smuggle in the machine guns that were used machine gun. That was used to assassinate that scientists. So somebody had to give the gun. Some person had to provide the gun to the robot and presumably that happened inside iran. So i don't think this was a purely robotic killing and then the question is was somebody controlling the robot from afar but those are all sort of clinical details that we'd like to know the answer to and we've got to folks who will know more about this than anybody else to talk to so let's This is sarah. Scenic hosted the serial. Podcast i wanna tell you about our new show nice white parents. Reporter hana joffe. Walt spent years looking into this one middle school in her neighborhood. She must've gated the school's history and finally realized could put a name to the unspoken force that kept getting in the way of making the school. Better white parents. How white parents can mess things up for everyone else without even knowing it. Nice white parents is made by cyril productions new york times company. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. This is sarah scenic hosted the serial podcast. I want to tell you about our new show. Nice white parents. Reporter hana joffe. Walt spent years looking into this one middle school in her neighborhood. She estimated the school's history and finally realized she could put a name to the unspoken force that kept getting in the way of making the school. Better white parents. How white parents can mess things up for everyone else without even knowing it. Nice white parents is made by cyril productions new york times company. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. To food we now have with us. David sanger of the new york times author most recently of the perfect weapon and ronen bergman also of the new york times joining us from tel aviv and author of reisen cal. I the secret history of israel's targeted assassinations and understand soon to be a h. b. o. Movie david's book has already been turned into an hbo documentary. So david ronen welcome to skulduggery. Thank you so a lot of talk about. But let's start out david with biden's cabinet picks To takeaways occur to me a number one is. There's a lot of Reshuffling of the deck of the obama administration here. We just learned today that dennis mcdonough who was obama's chief of staff is going to be the secretary susan. Rice who is obama's national security adviser is going to be domestic policy chief in the biden white house but also another takeaway is This is into a trickier exercise than i suspect. The people were hoping for Starting with pick this week of general austin to be defense secretary already pushback from democrats who are very wary of another waiver for a military officer to become the civilian head of the pentagon. Do you think the biden folks were aware that they'd be getting pushback from their own party on the On such a high profile pic. Well they should have been. I think there are two issues with Who was by every account. I've seen a pretty fine officer though if you go into carter's autobiography times defense secretary. He takes a piece of him for how they were dealing with. Parts of the iraq war with plans for attacks for which he didn't believe they had forces. But i would say that there are two issues here and one of them is the one you're hearing about and the one i'm worried about the most is when you're not hearing about so the one you're hearing about is the waiver right and though for those who don't keep up with such intricacies since the creation of the secretary of defense position is a provision in the law that you have to be out of service for a certain amount of time as a general officer before you could come in as a civilian secretary of defense and the theory is we're supposed to have civilian control the military and that having somebody retires an officer and then turn around and get appointed in political role secretary of defense policy role. He's a little like what happens. Pakistan and that that was not a walk that we should have in a democracy. And i feel pretty strongly about that. Initially that waiting time was ten years then. Congress changed down to seven. They should to waivers one was for george marshall who was defense secretary briefly Course was also more famously secretary of state. And then once for jim mattis which democrats voted for because they thought that mattis would be a calming influence on president trump at the time that the man is waiver was done. People like jack reed. Obviously a veteran on the armed services committee said that's it there should be a once in a generation thing. I'm not doing this again. Well it'll be interesting to see if he's doing this again. What's the issue. We're not hearing about that. You think is more important if you read everything that congress and most others talk about in the american the national defense strategy. We're supposed to be pivoting away from the middle east and focusing on the superpower competition with russia and china mostly china and that means moving away from all weapon systems. Moving away from old thought about how you move. Troops around the world focusing on new emerging technologies focusing on space cyber all of that. That is not lloyd. He's spent his time. You know in the middle east. The past twenty years dealing with iraq and afghanistan. That was michelle who had been presumed to be the leading candidate for this at who has spent her entire career really focused on what it would take a transform. The military airtime in the pentagon to these emerging technologies. We are way behind on this weird dangerously pined on this and spending four years getting four more years behind on this without a defense secretary who wakes up every single morning thinking what legacy system can i kill so that i can go build new technologies in space cyber and so forth. That's a big lost opportunity in my mind. So i have a couple of quick questions about austin one just to follow up on the point that you just made assuming he is confirmed. Which is i think right now likely needs to be an assumption but is likely and he does not have that kind of skill. Set that you're talking about. In terms of his of strategic capability how does administration fill in the gaps. A really good question so first of all we didn't say obviously would often if appointed if confirmed would be the first black secretary of defense in a military. That's had a really hard time. Generally and particularly hard time under donald trump having black senior officers to the ranks. And i think the message it sends having him as a defense secretary is a tremendous message. So let's ma walk away from what is what is very important symbolic move here and a very important real book here as well. I mean i think the military is. I don't know how they classified as this uniform military but it is something like sixty percent people of color. i mean it's a huge percentage of the entire forest. That's a very senior officer. Four stars three stars is overwhelmingly white. Right and i'm just making the point that all the more reason to have secretary defense who is a person of color absolutely absolutely and i think that that was also you know this is in general. This isn't cabinet. That is not the team of rivals. It's the team of old buddies. And president-elect biden. Is very comfortable with austin. Would austin new beau biden. They did a lot together. When bill biden was alive and of course deployed in iraq and by visited him frequently. And i think he's just got a level of comfort with him and you know the president deserves to have senior people in his cabinet Whom he's got complete auto confidence. So i'm not suggesting here for a moment that it was not easily explained choice. I'm just saying that between the waiver and the thinking about the future of the force there is a downside to this as well and the only solution to that is to persuade somebody who is really focused on that those kinds of issues to be deputy. We have had people. Focus on those issues of the as the deputy bob work. During the time that president obama was in and he stayed on through the beginning of the trump administration's maybe they can persuade michelle Having batter this to come back as deputy. Her last job was under secretary. For policy the judge just below deputy. That would be a remarkable thing if she was willing to go do that. Somebody like eric rosen. Back who served as ash. Carter's chief of staff and was the cyber at the pentagon to come in as a deputy superb cyber Away through all of those would be fine choices. But there's nothing like having the secretary of defense focus. So i wanna come back to Point you're making before that we were supposed to be pivoting to the superpower relationship with china away from the mid east. I mean it seems to me. Events in the mideast have a long rich history of dominating events around the world and biting officials in the ass in the in washington. And there's certainly no shortage china. Okay but there's no shortage of tensions in the mideast right now in fact we'll let's bring ronan into the discussion because both of you guys were writing last week about the assassination of the iranian nuclear scientists mo- most on falker and all the complications that that could cause for the incoming administration and for and it's hopes for reengaging with iran on the nuclear deal. So run first of all just starting out with that. I think the iranians announced just yesterday that they had rounded up a number of suspects they believe committed the assassination by remote control machine. Remote control operated machine gun and that this will prove zionists complicity as well as possible american complicity. Let's start out with what the iranians just announced about this. She we give credence to that. What do you make of it. I would give much credit to everything that the regime is saying. Especially when it comes to understanding what exactly happened or operandi input into custody of george the perpetrators when just shortly after the assassination took place the friday before last. They said there was a gun battle which was followed by pursuit followed by the arrest of two one two or three or four different versions of the assesses. The that they are under interrogation knowledge this version completely vanished and was just a day after two days off the replacement another version that there was there were no assesses only a killer robots debt version as our great colleague for us the times Who wrote without stanton that story at that. That came from the first one to tell the story was allegedly an independent creator of documentaries etc but then it turns out the day he has relative of some on from the revolutionary guard. The rg city hiring officer. Incidentally of course it was up to the revolutionary guard to be protecting the lake to mr professor And they fail now if there were no assistance only killer robots than may be too good explanation while no says were cards or captured or injured or killed. All wide was impossible to prevent it that assissination and now the last few days we have seen an extraordinary spin coming from may mainly from the revolutionary guard goes the other fashion ninety television service. Who are trying to bash them and said that they gave the warning. The enough listening. The iranian regime is not monolithic incoherent. They are internal struggles but the island coming out is glorification of the Explaining how efficient lethal effective is the targeted killing campaign of masan therefore creating narrative is if that assassination by a killer book it sounded like a a force majeure something you cannot prevent and just yesterday these spokesperson for the rest Gut said that the killing of a you could have scientists in the middle of street in tehran by a killer. Robot via satellite is not dangerous or jeopardising iranian national security. I think to myself if someone just killed your chief. Nuclear military signed this. This doesn't jeopardize your national security. What does well ronin. I gotta ask you first of all. It sounds to me like the. Ira has read your book. They don't get hbo over there though they're have to go. They're going to have to get pirated copies of the series. I think that's right. The iran never never Sign the intellectual property treaties and under at this violation. They published a many many books without pitting hidden royalties including my the the office of the speaker of ornament published. A version of of my book but of course without any kind of with all the parts that are unflattering to iranian regime. It's one of the follow up on one specific thing because as your book lays out in stunning detail i mean. The israelis pioneered remote killings with the use of drones back then it was drones identifying the target and then apache helicopters taking them out but adopted in spades by which we have adopted and says but is it in your view is it within the realm of the possible or believable. The israelis may have taken out using a an. Ai directed machine gun or a combination of that remote robotic machine gun and assassins on the ground. What are you actually think happened knowing that it's hard to know for sure. But what would your guess be ensure. The win will have the new york times. They're reliable version that we can attribute to sources of what exactly happened there finally before just the afternoon. We will publish dan. In the meantime we are depending on on iranian sources who are giving contradicted reports however it seems that at least in most infotech not in all of them. There is a A sonya zambia is a is a mini truck the version of a of a nisa in that zone yod is apparently has some kind of autonomous remote control weapons machine gun debt was operated either from another country via satellite claim old may be from a new location near command room. Maybe from another car just very minded in the movies it all goes you know gay spawned. It's all goes all the the del. By ninety. seven. With bruce willis they have a remote control assists the nation but in reality if you are situated in another country that makes the situation very complicated and tricky. Because what you see when you are there at the command room is not what is happening on the ground because there is something like a second at least if you're fast than if you are you're declining equipment is the best at least a second from the minute the the the visual creative until you see it and at least the second from signal to the garden if you need to adjust afire goes back so that at least two seconds almost second that you need to calculate the movement of the object it. You're trying to hit with the adjustment audio heights. I so this is a very very complicated and to have an of course the most important question you know if there was a rule book who put the road there it didn't appear by itself it was still required human beings on the ground which is why that announcement yesterday that they had arrested people. Was you know particularly interesting. But that said david. People talked about robotic warfare for some years now as sort of theoretical wrote. Guns are not unusual. Ronin don't they use those along the west bank gaza. This is a system. One of the military industries in israel reflected the system is called ula which rhymes in hebrew in means. You see you shoot but inactivation to female because they are female soldiers who only female soldiers who are operating this line of the towers with a machine-gun connected to a behind denies camman drew with female officers on direct the equity the trigger in order to stop infiltration of terrorists from gaza to israel. They say it's very precise. It has of so these these as as davis these system in use every day. And it's a confidence in a lot of movies. I mean really get out very much not these days. I do not get out very much weather over you know. We we see jerry springer we to seven and if there was a professional watching that movie he would say that that when he the the most important part that he that seems impossible. Difficult for him was not what we see. But we don't see. He reached for the gun and start shooting. But the professional will ask. But where did he get the gun from. He is improv or in vienna or loaded. Where did he get the gun from. How did the gun was smuggled any other kind of every hour stand smuggled into the target country well so let's let's talk about the implications of this assassination and this is really for both of you. What impact will this really have in terms of stopping or not stopping but slowing down the iranian march to building a nuclear arsenal. Because i mean the reality is that he is replaceable. There was a time where nuclear scientists might have been less replaceable now. They've got the infrastructure. They've got the know. How so at the end of the day. Is this really about slowing down the program or was it really about jamming the incoming biden administration which walks away engaged diplomatically with with iran and we enter the two thousand fifteen agreement. Let's start with david. Sure all take the first shot at that i. I think that it does slow down the program. It's going to be a modest slowdown in all. Explain why that is and that anything that they could do within this administration or that. The israelis could do to keep joe biden going through his stated policy which is to reinstate the iran nuclear deal. They're perfectly happy to go. You know throw sand in the gears there. So on the first part there are two parts to the nuclear program really three. There's the production of the nuclear fuel. That's been moving forward and has been resumed. obviously since president trump. pulled out of the nuclear deal you saw facility. That ronin. I wrote about with our colleagues that blew up in in july having a mysterious explosion that was to build advanced centrifuges. That's the fuel cycle. The thing about nuclear weapons is without uranium or plutonium. you can't build them so obviously. The fuel cycles of big target the fuel that try and the fuel cycle was of course the target of olympic games which was the most sophisticated cyber attack on a piece of infrastructure. We've ever decade ago and even olympic games the israeli. Us cyber attack on. Tom's plant. Only set bionz back by a year year and a half at the time it happened. They had five thousand centrifuges five years later when they negotiated the iran nuclear deal. They had nineteen thousand centrifuges. So that tells you that they came back and the second part of the program is the actual working on the weapons which was formerly suspended in two thousand and three and we know from the archive that the israelis stole from iran. That muslim fuckers day was of course the guiding light. he was also target number one. So it's hard for me to believe that he didn't set up other scientists to begin to to fill in for his knowledge if he was taken out of the game and that program has been continuing of a low level but even the united states does not say. It's in a full fledge. These days so i don't think it would slow them down that much. He was a key person but there are a long way from weaponization fuel yet yet. But just picking up on that. Didn't iran recently announced it was expanding. Its in richmond and also restricted monitoring by The un nuclear would restrict monitoring. They have not yet actually restricted the monitoring. They said they may if biden doesn't come in and begin to negotiate out the new deal but there was a statement. I think by both by the europeans raising concerns. About this saying this is going to set back. an effort to re-engage on the Jcp hey i'm wondering you know after the assassination last week. There was a lot of expectation that iran will have to retaliate. And that's where this gets very complicated depending on what the retaliation is. They haven't yet. Why not are you still expecting it. And in what form would you expect. Retaliation would take earning. I will relate to that. I just wanted to continue your your question. What david davis said developed what. The was the purpose of that that this is a nation. Whoever is behind that was we have any information public information from american all all israeli sources. But i don't know what was the decision making process s to bring or amy to bring and i think it's. It's highly unlikely that someone started to plan execute. The system nation just fully the results of elections in in the united states to plan such as this nation to kill someone who is probably the second most guarded person in iran. Someone did the iranians knew the israel or the united states or both aiming it and he's at high risk. It was surrounded by bodyguards. Something that will take if not more in that planning needs to be. Based on years of building networks of spies cyber intelligence needs inside iraq now if that was emotion then of course someone can claim or or Come with the with the mindset. The point of view that that did this action should have been stopped because of the results of the election The fact that nobody is going to be the next president only in january. But just to to think that this was a conspiracy that started its motion after the elections in america. I think this is highly unlikely now. Revenge look the iranians have demonstrated. As i always think being moderate practical and rational when it comes to any kind of threat to their regime. This i believe that this regime this revolution like every day started with some new agenda on on on religion oil oil economic so politically. They they remain with only one desire and that desire is to remain the regime and they are interested in that and throughout the last year mother than than one year but especially during twenty twenty. The iranians have suffered suffered blow the blow after mysterious explosion. The league of qasim suty money in january the most important officer a special operation commander now. The day have showed that they can limit if going to into any retaliation and i think what they are looking at is what would happen. When president biden walks into the oval office will he give them the the one thing and urgently and this is why they are threatening to withdraw from the non-proliferation treaty in two months. If he doesn't give that and that is access to their frozen bank accounts they they cash sale on the verge of bankruptcy. But ruin as you know and as you reported on and david also there are different factions in iran and with different interests and different approaches. You have the g. c. And i guess the question is is there hand strengthened the hand of the hardliners strengthened or weakened in the wake of this assassination. And of course you have the president ruhani who had pursued diplomacy in the first place. You have how many the the the acquatic leader sometimes hard to know exactly where where he stands all of this. But what are the internal politics in the wake of this assassination and who is strengthened and who was weakened by it bali. The coming june elections will be the last chance for those representing the moderate approach. Like honey but the people he will. He is not a candidate people who could succeed him from his group to prove that interaction negotiation with the west was a good thing in profitable for the iranian people in this gives them a lot of energy in a little division to reach some kind of of a new agreement with the new president Esther what committee is leaving. He can supreme leader. Nothing can be approved without him but he also as i said before also he understands that in order to not jeopardising the survival of the regime. David the money. The money's frozen because of american sanctions. They need those sanctions lifted immediately otherwise they risk another set of restrictions in the streets. Let's talk about a number of other countries that conduct assassinations and how the biden folks will be dealing with them. Starting with iran's neighbor the saudis. Who of course famously. Assassinated and washington post journalist in two thousand eighteen biden is on record saying he wants to hold the saudis accountable for this. There's a d. n. i report that congress mandated be released to them about what the intelligence community knows about the assassination and in particular the role of the crown prince mohammed bin salman. What do you expect the biden folks to be doing right off the bat on the saudi front. This is going to be a really early test of whether jake sullivan and tony blinken swimming. Speaking confirm which. I suspect he will whether what happens when they have to go take all they had said about human rights issues and put it right up against one of the biggest american relationships when the kashogi killing happened the trump administration may the show saying we will certainly you know. Get a full investigation and hold everyone accountable. They got annoyed every time. The question came up at some points. Secretary pompeo said to reporters you're only dwelling on this because he was himself in journalist. You know seem to me to be a remarkable thing and then another points said look a lot of countries do bad things but that does not necessarily mean that we have to go terminate our relationship now stretching was also a us res- it is not inconceivable that the justice department under a biden administration could indict the crown prince. Well that would be quite a provocative step. There's there's immunity issues. I think that could be a barrier to that. It could be but it would also send a message that the crown prince can do many things but he can't step into the united states right right and they can then there are. Nbs underlings like al kettani who could be easily. So you haven't seen any of that happen. And i think that's going to be. That's going to be the first issue that's gonna come up in front of the national security adviser to the secretary of state and the attorney general could generate maybe an connect to of the attempts. The the pressure that both israel and the united states exercise throughout the last few must on saudi arabia to follow up on rain the uae as sudan. It hasn't worked. The saudis have not gone along fact. They're getting quite a bit of pushback from some members of the royal family starting with prince turki bin faisal the former chief of saudi intelligence. And i think the main problem was though the main obstacle was the king himself or his approach. At least but the off the the deal that The us government trump offered nbs with something. I think According to cessna of some of the people that were present if it was only up to him he would have accepted and the deal was that he would be invited to the ceremony. Washington where the normalization of relations with bahrain and the us was announced he will announce the same about saudi arabia and israel in return he will receive a visit to washington be with the president and others with all the glorification of such a visit debt. President trump can't supply and he was said to him. Look even if the even if joe biden this was not of course not said the near president trump but even if by the way he could not undo visit that already happened cannot undo a sort of religious migration that such a visit would supply you bisa compromise but he declined he declined because there were others according to deal with others either royal family who said it. Saudi arabia is in support of the obama sudan what they doing with israel but saudi arabia is different the custodian of islam. They have differ duty if they would make such a move. This will change everything and for the time being. They are left in the shadows. Not recognizing israeli fish. Also if the crown prince came the saudis wanted to guarantee there would be no protests about his arrival. Yeah right exactly. I want to get to another country that engages. The senate assassinations with impunity. And that's russia. But before i do just a couple of other quick beats on the mid east. It seems another early test for the biden. Folks is what they're gonna say. If anything on the state department's decision to reverse years of us policy on israeli settlements on the west bank Declaring them under pompeo some months ago legal which was a complete abandonment of where the state department had been before. Should we expect the blinken state department and the biden administration to reverse that stand by the pompeo state department. I'd be shocked if they did if they did. Not they did not reverse it. Because it undercuts the essential argument that was made throughout the obama administration. When mr lincoln was deputy secretary of state when he was deputy national security adviser that basically said you cannot pre drudge. these you can't put these settlements in place and basically create facts on the ground that you then expect to be enshrined in some final agreement with the palestinians ronin. How will that go down with the israelis. If netanyahu is right here can you imagine this staying in place. Well if they want to reinstate the traditional bipartisan by the way until trump Policy of of the us government towards israel towards the settlements even during very very friendly administrations like joining the relationship between president george w bush and aerial shortage of than they need to counsel undo. What the trump administration has done outlook from these really point of view. This could play a role in the coming israeli elections so i would assume if there are elections taking place in israel more likely they will did the wall in in april or omar even dating. I would assume that they divided administration would sail away from doing anything drastic at the beginning because if it will that prime minister netanyahu would use that as another yet another token another chip in his campaign he would say i told you that these democrats the left the liberals that they are against us that i told this is what i said all along. Here is the proof. Now did you know. They are replacing. All relocating embassy to tel aviv. Will they are the declaring our sentiments legal because the neo is that muster of twisting everything in knowing how to use that as a spin for his own constituency so to speak at home and nowadays when he's fighting the continuation of political career. Maybe fighting to stay out of jail. He will use everything again. Okay issue coffee. You said that russia. Yeah steak on the. We can new russia quickly but i want to get to ronin book. So what's your russia question. Well you know that's another challenge for the incoming Biden administration what approach to take with putin and holding him accountable. Not just for what he did in two thousand and sixteen but for continued cyber-attacks zero. Just the other day about a very sophisticated. Cyber attack on fire is the cyber security are that has been linked to the russians and a week before that we wrote about an attack series of attacks believed to be at a russia but not certain on the cold chain supply for vaccines so this is a good sign that the russians have not been stopped at all from engaging in rather aggressive cyber offensive just to name the election system this time and they focused on on other. So there's a scene in the documentary version of the perfect weapon where we asked biden during the primaries about any spins around his airport someplace and he says ladimir putin knows me and he doesn't wanna see re-elected because i'm coming after him and so forth and so on he basically takes the position that he is going to radically change the relationship with russia and they're gonna feel a lot of pushback in fact the russians hadn't felt some push back but mostly from places like cyber command. They have not felt it. Obviously from the president of the united states and the really interesting question is how is biden. Do that especially because he was going to have fifteen days. Fifteen days after inauguration to renegotiate our extend the it expires february fifth if it goes in expires. We're without our last major arms control treaty with russia and they are free to do increase aside the arsenal as much as they want so. It's not like they're going to have to like kept time to sit around and not think about how they're going to go deal with putin fifteen days. Okay let's let's go back to assassinations for a minute sir. I want to turn to ronin terrific book rise and kill. I the secret history of israel's targeted assassinations. Because i think you say in the book that israel has used assassinations for statecraft more than any other country in the modern era. Tell us well first of all tell us the biblical or talmudic origins of the name of your book. Rise and kill. I because when i saw it i said that that's unusual title. So where does that come from. When i signed the contract. Two thousand ten with random house. They asked me hold on. We'll take you to write the book one year said you're short said yet. I said why. Don't be right in the contract a year and a half just to be the safe zone of non violating the contract. Could i am very exact. And very with deadlines. I always know how will take me. It will take me so you can write whatever you like. It will take me a year. They wrote the year and a half. They listen and after that. I was delayed in six years. The reason exactly older deadline The reason for that was. I decided to put aside everything that was written on israeli intelligence before. Just do everything from scratch. So i interviewed the data. That with a list of interviewees one thousand people in after submitting the renovator lifelock desperate. They felt they will never see. The demand stripped in when i submitted force. The comes the time to decide the name in some said. Let's go for the office. Go license to kill but then we we searched amazon into are sixty four other books called license to kill and the is i think as well but either and then someone came with. This horrible idea was to look to set to use the art of his assassination. Like san suu off the floor. Which sounds like zen book. Nobody would someone who was actually going through the millions of words of transitive of with one thousand people said you know. There's one sentence the many different interviews keep on repeating while of course record in the nfc cronyism coordinated in this is a quote from the belonging tumbled. That says will come to kill you. Rise up at him. I get hoskins will go wherever tequiliu rise up and kill him first so we used that as the name of the book rise in killed for us now. I think those people who used it cooled. They didn't say that just to impress me. All this with their understanding and knowledge of jewish scripture they wanted to explain their mindset when being involved in those actions sway beyond any lives. But also you know. These are morally at least controversial elections. Death verdict execution without a trial without due process without evidence without a judge in. I think what they were trying to say is that in their mindset and i and i have no judgment in the book if someone reads the book. There's no of those voice. I'm i'm i'm distant. Everyone can have his own little her own opinion. But according to their opinion the the people from prime minister minister of defence who ordered the assassination to the actual assassins who was speaking. I was lucky there. Figu most of them on the record that was their mindset that there is for a country in the middle east of suffering from the past trauma of the holocaust in order to prevent the second annihilation. There is no hope. There is no other choice during snow puts ability but to attribute less importance to international diplomacy. And do what they think is necessary. Rising killed i. How many assassinations as the mossad. Carrying out what. It's not just a massage. The the whole of the israeli intelligence community masan military intelligence in the bed. The domestic secret service is really a imagery the idea including air force in. We're talking about thousands of them. The book i don't recall the name of the book has some estimate currently calculated. But we're talking about at least three. Thousand operations of assassination in grueling withdraws including outside is really the occupied territories. It's the only country that saw targeted killings or summations. The american intelligence communities using very different names because of legal reasons saination forbid targeted killings are permitted in some cases but in israel they. They'll do all the different names that refer to the same thing they use this. As a prime tool is in order to prolong the time between war and all out war and the second all outward and to confront the daily dangerous israel faces. And they did that i think by far is country that use targeted killing by far more than any other country at least in the west of the second world war. So you do a wonderful job. In the book of showing israeli officials grappling with these more all and legal dilemmas. But guess the question is at the end of the day. How effective tool has targeted assassinations been for israel. And one example. Is there a number of examples in your book where you show that taking out one enemy. That person's replaced someone who maybe more powerful and more effective. The example i'm thinking about is the head of hezbollah musawi who was replaced by nasarallah and that also elevated iman nia who is one of the most effective and deadly operators that israel ever had to contend with so. Do you have a bottom line in terms of the overall effectiveness of targeted assassinations. As as a tool. I think that there's there's no bottomline in one rule that that relates to all of the because history change reality. Change the changes. I think that if like to find a few roads that do have some common wisdom. After this huge vast experience that israel had been having throughout those seventy two years of seventy degrees existing. One is that one time the nation which is not part of a policy of an ongoing operations. Not just as a nation but ongoing connecticut operation against your enemy usually doesn't work just creates photo. Ops that you cannot cook front second. Killing leaders like secretary general's moussawi will may be changed the course of history but not necessarily to the path that you directed here they killed without we came. He was thirty. One years old and a may hispaniola strategic and in israel probably the most important enemy. Israel has faithful for decades. Third is that in some cases. Israel proved that when it's a part of a strategy when it's done continuously when israel has the ability to comprehend and contain the reaction on the the attempts to retaliate from the other side it has an effect and You know the the fact that the pilo decided the one thousand nine hundred. Seventy three seventy four to withdrew from europe in re constant regroup in the middle east where it was much easier for the massage to to deal with is mainly because of the series that campaign of targeted killings. The massage took after the killing of the athletes in munich. Nineteen seventy two. And you know. I had a conversation with michael hayden. Foam chief of cnn and for rising kill first thing to june hated one single tool that israel. The united states together note together. All separately activated was using against the iranian nuclear project in order to stop it or to delayed was the most effect and he didn't hesitate. He surprised me and he said the one most important tool was the fact that someone was started to kill their chief. Scientists did said ronin. It's illegal according to american law was not that i smiled and said why smiling said general hidden. You know who it was. He said these rallies never told us it was but you know when you said with the cia masada with reigning tillerson's sipping and marking designating who are the main iranian scientists than those scientists are dropping dead in the middle of the street in tehran. It was not you you assume it was the other side of the of the table and i asked him. I said general. Hey why was that. So effective any recall that first meeting of the national security council in under president obama january two thousand nine when the president asked him by canadian. He said journal the chief of general. Hey how much rich you really of easter eating tons by the way. Distinguished the mike that they Referred to before. How much reach uranium. The iranian has today. That's far the the richmond project so he asked him end up. Michael the Said mr president. I know the answer to that question. How much enriched uranium is during the towns but. Let me say this is important because there's no single electron from natanz that would end up in nuclear bowl. What they're building in terms he said to the press. The president of the the ability test is not a bomb. They're building knowledge. And there's only one way with which you can destroy knowledge. Well let little just follow which is very quickly. Because between ten and two thousand and twelve four new iranian nuclear scientists were assassinated. And if you look. I have a little chart i use. I wish i knew we had visual for this. But i use this in our national security class where we plot the cyber attacks killing the scientists sanctions. You know all that kind of stuff and what you discover that again. Tiny blip in the number of in the delay in producing new centrifuges total output of iranian. The only thing that guy uranium in the large supply out of iran was that in the two thousand fifteen agreement iranians had to ship ninety seven percent of their stockpile to russia to they did and so even with everything they've been producing since is ronin pointed out they've got enough for maybe two weapons with furger enrichment l lot more than that prior to the two thousand fifteen agreement me just every. Just add something on this. David denied do not fully agree but if we would be in delta one view on everything wouldn't be interesting. Look the jcp way was signed in the summer of two thousand fifteen iran has sort of started or its nuclear project in the early nineties and gave it gave a quarter significant push in the late nineties. So until the end of two thousand fifteen they were trying to develop nuclear weapon without the j. spewing in place and i think that the main reason why they were not able this is a very advanced country reached. Did what did not stay resources. The lakers the fossil was doing everything he can to advance. The the who the main reason was the joint effort by mainly by the us initial which had been part like economic be sanctions and boycotts. They need the prevention of dual-use dual-use equipment excellently but also secret sabotage the sedation The overall not wanna the overall strategy was the tool with which iran was not to reach the point that they were trying then is a nuclear weapon. Okay so ronan. You mentioned the sort of morally controversial aspect of this. The israelis Sas innate the iranian nuclear scientists the saudis dismember a journalist who it perceives as a threat to its regime The russians poison former operatives to send a message so that others don't defect to the west and undermine its national security and the united states engages in targeted killings traditional killings via drone strike and has done so for years the one distinction that leaps out to me is that with the drone strikes there is collateral damage and innocent people get killed much more likely than in the poisoning of the russians and the targeted killings by the israelis. What is the moral distinction between what we do with drone strikes against suspected terrorists. And what these other countries are doing your from both of you on that starting with david so now. If you're on the receiving end of it the way that you away that you would make sure this be the killing of sony. The rain ian General irish easy general in iraq by drown in january. And you'd have to ask the question. How does this differ from the israelis killing faculties. The americans would say well. We have direct evidence. Sola mani was planning attacks on american soldiers. Okay and that fans they never publicly released and often squishy when you try to find the details for that justification. But i don't doubt that he had tried some in the past and probably did have some plans. That would go do it. But i agree with you. It's squishing together. And they never did release the a and he was of course. The head of the could force are a general Was also in the although he was not uniform and it is interesting that you have not heard one word of condemnation about his assassination from the trump administration. They haven't mentioned it on the day that he was assassinated to not quite two weeks ago two weeks ago tomorrow or the day after we asked the state department of anything to say about iran and they said yeah. We just imposed a bunch of new sanctions. And just a minute after we posted. David may self Story about the assassination. President trump tweeted that story. Which is i assume. Not the regular thing that president trump is doing retweeting. The new in all stories. He rich we did that one. Maybe he knew that this is coming. I would assume that if it was indeed is rope in the strong extensive cooperation in the in the relationship of those tool administration. The netanyahu truck Wouldn't be such a dramatic action taken by israel without informing all of the extent of receiving permission the us administration. Before ronan. i would just like to have you talk a little bit about some of the more interesting israeli operations because a lot of them seem like they come out of a james bond movie some of them. Not so much there have been some botched assassinates assassination attempts that have been very embarrassing for the massad and the israeli leadership. But i'd like maybe for you to talk about a couple of your the ones that you think are most interesting and compelling and let's start with the hezbollah leader whose name my boss before imad mughniyah your by the way you mentioned sulamani before i think the israelis had an opportunity to take out but sumani long before the americans did when he was with aena. But tell us about iman mughniyah and that operation. In a minute going back to manila. But before you mentioned james bond. And i think that people usually failed to see the the main difference between what we see in james bond movies as well as in many others and the real world of intelligence the it was really intelligent. One of them trying to describe you know james bond is one man show. He entered the office of 'em cheap. My six now politically correct. Was it the woman. He gives the analysis of the information sure he gives the overall view of what is happening. He has the computer than he goes. Any flies the helicopters. He drives the lamartine he announced roofs. He should within two hours discounts home on time to make love with the most sexiest woman drinking martinis shaky burden now with the sex assigned of course in the real world of intelligence. What he does by itself is stunned by many many many many many different people each one with her or his own expertise and doing that so the operation is the decision but the operation. That david and i reported about back in the summer of two thousand eighteen the side stealing the iranian year military secret archive the assad version of abortion. Eleven debt operation at the end of that depression. Two years of planning. There were eighteen operatives in death warehouse in tehran but in the overall participation in the building of the intelligence and operational level there. Were no less than five hundred operatives. One doing something and as much as we are going with more technology in advanced abrasions way beyond the minaj central. Then you need more people nowadays and so these fast sometimes. Thousands of people are participating in one of parisian and it's such a small country like israel winning a exercise those methods through all time. Then you get practically tens of thousands of people that throughout their lives took south park in some assassination operation. Just think what does it mean about a country. What does it mean about people what. It's being a mindset by psychology in israel to to approve such operation. You need to be not unique to go to the prime minister. Donate israel very young people. Going with the head of the agency had facade military intelligence of the under the age of thirty south of the under the age of twenty five going to the prime minister to try to convince the prime minister to authorize to kill the person and only in israel. Sell those people throughout time. Cross that truman. Become the prime minister. Yitzhak shamir or rachael Others that's one of the more fascinating details in your book where you start out with the in the first chapter the assassination of the un envoy ordered by shamir back in the late nineteen forties. And of course later becomes prime minister. Listen there's so many fascinating stories. Sure i'm just one of many. Who will be looking forward to the hbo documentary when it finally gets made about about your book ronan and david who's already been turned into an hbo. Doc thanks for joining us. Great discussion thank you.

ronen bergman hana joffe iran cyril productions new york tim biden Israel biden administration sarah scenic David sanger the new york times russia united states Walt obama administration austin pentagon michael isikoff yahoo news dan cliven iraq
Netanyahus Indictment; Live from Atlanta

People of the Pod

1:00:48 hr | 1 year ago

Netanyahus Indictment; Live from Atlanta

"Hello and welcome to people of the pot brought to you by. AJC The Times of Israel each week we take you beyond the headlines and help you understand what they all mean for Israel and the Jewish people aren't Cogan and I'm on your brochure Cashman mm-hmm Saffy. Who did you talk to this week? Well it was a big week for me Manja. I was down in Atlanta at. AJC's board of Governors Institute and we had a live show there for our board of governors 'em featuring two very different very interesting desks jests. We had Jodi Dorin the former Jerusalem bureau chief for the New York Times who recently took the position as editor in chief of the forward and Dr Rochman Shaya former member of Knesset for a decade former IDF spokesman former senior vice president of the Jewish federations of North America and. I'm really excited for everyone to hear you're those two fascinating conversations. What about you well? I'm excited to hear that I spent Thursday scrambling a bit after the announcement that Prime Minister. Benjamin Netanyahu who was being indicted we reached out to Ronen Bergman the staff writer for the New York Times National Security Senior correspondent for our note and the author of of rise. And Kill I the secret history of Israel's targeted assassinations to put it. All in context. He phoned in from Tel Aviv sounds fascinating. Let's hit the show as if if the Israeli political drama could not get any more chaotic. Israel's attorney general announced Thursday that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will be indicted for bribery fraud and breach of trust. The decision marks the first time in Israel's seventy plus year history that a serving prime minister has faced criminal charges joining us to explain what all this means is Ronen Bergman Augmon staff writer for the New York Times National Security Senior correspondent for our note and the author of Reisen Kill. I the secret history of Israel's targeted assassinations vacination Ronan is based in Tel Aviv and joins US now Ronin. Welcome thank you thank you. So we know that Prime Minister Netanyahu is being charged with as I said bribery fraud breach of trust. But can you describe briefly the circumstances behind those three charges. What specifically is he being accused of so they are three cases which are codename by police with names of the thousands houses case one thousand refers to that? That's on Yahoo was asked and was given by two years the field producer on invention and the Australian take coon James Packer cool for four or five years. Supply apply on Yahoo and his wife Sarah according to their requests or demands what is described as a pipeline of teaching Bay Gone and jewelry worth hundreds of thousands of shekels in return as the attorney general's described that hat for all sorts of benefits that Netanyahu was trying to get for misdemeanor renewing his. US Visa nations will help as businesses in Israel etc.. In this case he is indicted if fraud and breach of trust. Okay okay. So that's the first charge. The second case involves recordings Netanyahu himself made of conversations with the publisher of your newspaper. Nonni Moses tell us about those charges Moses was according to these type events was offering bribes to Netanyahu asking him to diminish or expert his influence to legislate in low that we diminish the circulation of the rival live a paper people call Israel's Today Owned by Sheldon which is considered to be the main basis points Israeli media forgotten going in Yahoo and he returned Moses according to the recording. Promise Netanyahu to completely flipped the coverage from Yahoo was given EXPI- his paper by you Horno in that case Yahu is according to the journalists know started to execute his part of the deal but the fact that he negotiate with Mister Moses the fact that he gave the impression that he's going to exit is enough charge him with breach of trust and fraud and this is the newspaper. You work for right. This is a worked for Nonni Moses is the owner and the publisher of the newspaper. And of course you know it's a sad day for every Israeli. That's for the first time you know history and acting prime minister and being indicted in any offense and of course then bribe and all the other offenses and as a journalist working you and your Donaldson said they the publishers be charging offering gripe the third that case four thousand. Which is the most of your cases is dealing with a The relationship between Netanyahu and he's wife and his son they'll only him is charged with Brian with the laws in the main media including Israel. Someone cold shower and he said that Netanyahu and his wife intervenes repeatedly hundreds and hundreds of times times. Not just in the way that Mr and his wife are being covered by the main news online media websites of Mr all all of each company called Walla and they tasted everything or much of what was published about them during the election during the election day and even follow up just to see that these sex shoot but not just that they also intervene. According to the indictment in the way that that website very popular was the popular in Israel treated their opponent and not just their opponents from the left but also their political rivals from the right where they asked to everybody's fine significantly the criticism publish against these opponents in return according to the DB Netanyahu basically trained the ministry the streets of communication to be completely enslaved to their request of salvage grunting him legislation in other change of regulation which benefited in billions of shekels into the pocket of Mr on average. This is very very serious. Charge drivable drivable to administer. who was in charge of receive the trust of the public and need to make sure he's not using the heavy pauline? When you can own personal political okay so now thank you for laying all of those charges out now? The charges Comma Day after Netanyahu's political political opponents Bennigan's come threw in the towel and announced he couldn't build a coalition government and the likelihood of third election in Israel became almost certain. So how does this change that or does it willing to weigh. It does because we all know in a political crisis unprecedented in the history of the country but also in illegal crossings. He does not clear wizard. Mister Netanyahu can lead his party and potentially be the next prime minister during the election when criminal indictments on hanging over his head It's getting even more complicated. Because in order to miss the criminal charges the Attorney General I need to turn to chair of the House. The chair of the Knesset and tell him I have an intention engine to indict a member of your house which is Member of parliament. Prime Minister Netanyahu has thirty days to ask the Knesset's necessary committee to announce his immunity from indictment if he doesn't then after thirty days the united submitted to court but if he challenge that then the Knesset committee needs to discuss it and then bring it to the Knesset to vote. The problem is that we do not have the coalition You know they failed again and again and again during the next two rounds. So we don't have a Knesset committee. We are stuck in a situation that nobody ever thought would happen. Nobody dreamt could occur the history of Israel. And it's not yet I think would happen the less likelihood by the way that someone from family could with challenged the authority and leadership Mister Netanyahu and calling for an internal elections inside could i. I'm not sure that this would happen. When the convert great Like president from he lost few years. He's using stream severe attacks against anyone. Challenging aging is a authority including people inside the Likud anyone who he even saw potentially as an opponent was the target for the most most horrific media social media campaigns Rumors February Kate that information. This information people are afraid but they they say closed sessions with journalists and things you know. That's the step down. Long ago they are phrased to say publicly missing Antonio L. has given a statement this evening in which he attacked on thing the most brutal way and so the first one but when when the on anything he has done so far against the police against the Attorney General Against the prosecution office the Ministry of Justice accusing them in trying to to lead a coup against right-wing government. He's basically saying because I exercise a rice new policy these people they left wing. The left the The deep states are challenging my authority out trying to create false indictment based on false evidence in order to take me down what he didn't mention by the way. Is that the key pull all the people. All the state's witnesses turns against him. We're old people so many of them religious many of them right-wingers who he appointed So there's no conspiracy. There's no there's no listening trying to toppling only because of his policy person who facing severe charges and he's fighting in whatever he goes but when you are prime minister you cannot fight with your power with diligence in my station of the whole law enforcement system because this is just about him now people in Israel here in the prime minister who speaks very well and very good are now under the beneath the the this is a deep state confused conspiracy against and they should not believe the police in both the Attorney General of the Ministry of Justice. Not just about the permissible. People are listening inning to what Prime Minister Netanyahu saying in the wake of the indictment and paying attention to that rather than questioning his credibility now that he is under indictment. It's actually the former that he's now has them questioning other authorities. I think that's on. Yahoo has a very strong base and with the indictments the Dan dice. True and leave it to now. At least that's an Yahoo's claim that this is a left wing conspiracy led by the media and police east but there are other of course corridors in Israeli society. And I think there's more and more people understand that Netanyahu's time name and politically though. Israel is likely to be over soon and I do believe that certain point there might be people including the Likud that would say think we go to a third-round and we are led by Nathanael. The risk is we will lose. Everything is just too great and That is happening happening. He's replaced then was a whole different variety of options to a unity government. We bend against new in what everyone who tries to Israeli politics last year and a half was wrong so everything is so hectic so speedy. I'm not it's going to make any prediction on. What does seem awfully unpredictable? The days to come we'll be really very interesting Ronen Bergman thank you so much for joining us and explaining meaning all of this drama to us thinking when Jodi resor spent four years as the Jerusalem bureau chief for The New York Times one of the most wanted postings in journalism in that role her her reporting featured prominently not only in the most important newspaper in America but in endless Shebab dinner discussions and he did facebook debates later in in her career at the time she served as an associate managing editor earlier. This year Jodi became editor in chief of the Jewish daily forward one of the oldest Jewish news outlets let's in the country in that role she instantly becomes one of the chief. Observers of an opinion shapers for American Judaism Ladies and Gentlemen. Please welcome jody. Lauren Oren Jody. You and I have been talking a little bit about where we're going to go with this conversation but before we dive into it I wanted to ask you know. The forward has a storied history My my favorite forward fun fact. I Love Fun. Facts ax my favorite forward fund. Fact is that the radio station that the Ford used to own had the call sign. Remember call signs before podcasts. W. Me why people knows why because it was Eugene v initials so the forward has A hardcore socialist history. Now I would say the the left leaning mainstream and you're writing the new chapter of a of the forward what what motivated you to leave the times and come to the forward. Well thanks for having me Saturday. It's it's great to be here in Atlanta with this audience audience and on your podcast. As he said the forward has kind of amazing history founded in one thousand nine hundred seventy and it does have labor Zionist and socialist roots at the time in the early part of the twentieth century. There actually there was a communist paper socialist paper or many dailies and at its height. The forward had more subscribers than the New York Times. A quarter million subscribers and part of it's legacy and part of it's kind of amazing history and part of what I admire about. What is it played this incredible role in this really important chapter in American Jewish history of really welcoming immigrants to the lower east side in and showing them a little bit about how to be American? And now we're in. This interesting flipped position of having a huge opportunity opportunity to speak to the American Jewish community the diverse and fragmented often polarized off at American Jewish community. And maybe helping the kind of very broad lead defined group of people who feel Jewish in some way bird a little bit more about how to be Jewish or how to connect with their own on Jewish identity. Whatever that may look like for me I'd spent I spent more than twenty years working at the New York Times? It was an amazing place to work and I got to do unbelievable unbelievable things in many different jobs there including the nearly four years I spent in Jerusalem and The Times survival and its this ability to thrive is crucial to our democracy. And I'm sort of thrilled that it's like well on its way to finding new model and one hundred and fifty million people read the New York Times every month and nearly five million of them are subscribing or pay the near times which is incredible and I are pretty important for there to and they have the most successful podcasts. Some of the eight hundred thousand fourteen eight hundred fourteen thousand podcast. I heard this morning. There are but the daily is great one and but I just as as I got more and more focused on digital innovation audience strategy. I was really concerned about the rest of the journalism industry. Local news desert's and different kind of community or interest based publications. That were had not figured out. What was the thing that people most needed how to distribute it how to how to speak to the audience of today a where everything is on the phone and everything's kind of integrated and when the forward took the painful decision to end its print entirely early earlier in two thousand nineteen? It struck me that while that was of course painful. It was also very bold and really showed the deep commitment to innovation that I think is essential for journalism of tomorrow I was really piqued my interest I I the publisher and CEO of the forward lives in my town. We went to lunch. She wanted to pick my brains about job. Candidates people who might take over as editor in chief. I gave her a bunch of names. And then I couldn't get the conversation out of my head and I said actually I'd like to do it. I feel I'll go the risk of going on too long. I'm sorry but just to say we are in a moment of have crisis in American journalism or global journals and also a real crisis in American Judaism where I think the turtles my talked about a little bit of Judaism I just. I'm deeply concerned about people's inability to talk to each other and the polarization of debate and of the organized community and I really think the forward word with its storied. Legacy and widespread kind of connection to people's path can can meet that opportunity in that challenge enj- by providing a platform for civil discourse on issues that. Divide us. So that's GonNa try to do so. Thank you for that perfect set because the question that I want to. I want to really elite dig into in the time we remaining is similar to that. I want to know what is the greatest challenge facing American Jews today and I'll put all my cards on the table. This was inspired by something. You tweeted last week that something was the greatest challenge facing Americans use today. You can give that as your answer. You're welcome to change your answer sir. But but that held against you as a flip flop Well you're in journalism now. Politics could point. So so what is it. What so the the tweet? I think you saw was related to an op-ed written in the New York Times by a college student. I forget where yes a a junior sophomore sophomore at George Washington University and essentially I mean essentially the piece talked about. How difficult he I think he identified himself offers a liberal Zionist and a general progressive politically and how difficulty was finding it to be basically who he was on American College campus today and I thought it was very well in peace so kids confidence in the writing of the younger generation but it just struck me as really tragic like these most places universities like news organizations are supposed to be out engagement with ideas with difficult ideas connections to the people who disagree with you and and to teach you how to make an argument and defend your ideas but also honestly actually not even that to open in your mind to how to think about everything and to expose you to lots of ideas before you even decide who you are and what you think and that's really see what I think? Journalism is about two but university is the best parallel to it and this crisis that is happening on universities of people's kind of inability talk to each other. I think primarily about Israel but I think it's extending into different aspects of being Jewish sort of separate and related aided crisis which I think blew up a day or two after that op Ed of campuses inviting speakers and protesters drowning them out and that whole thing kind of falling apart. I guess I'm I'm just really worried about people not being able to talk to each other. I know a lot of my friends who have older kids in mind. Kids in college kids in their twenties. They are having trouble talking their own families their own children about again it starts with Israel but then I think it becomes about who we are as Jews. I think that organized Jewish community has failed in this way and maybe is is worsening. Things I think people are this is the community is largely defining people out of the of of the kind of acceptable realms of debate and really getting super polarized and when I was in Jerusalem and covering the conflict I felt like it was different than anything I've ever covered in. Its polarization position in the way that people thought about these issues based on narrative and identity and therefore couldn't really pathetically understand the view and then I came back at the beginning of two thousand sixteen in an all. The things I found unique about covering that situation are now affecting everything everything in America everything in American politics but the Jews were head in getting super polarized being unable to talk to each other and this is the thing I'm most worried about I. You know it's really one of the main things. I'm hoping we can participate to pay in. Solving is is getting people to listen better and to think differently and to just under two. I mean look for me one of the things. That's so great about this job. Bob and Judaism and journalism are really based on a lot of the same things or they share a lot of key values asking questions telling stories argument debate respectful debate. I've been saying that I would see if we can try this out on your audience. I feel like the Tomlin is like the original crowdsource digital platform. That's my that's my that work for people. Aw Four wikipedia. Yeah Yeah right exactly. So the legendary chronicler of Zionist ideas American Jewish historian Arthur Hertzberg said. The Jews are like everybody else only more so a friend of mine told me once that ten years ago when I was complaining about one of my parents. She said that people are like wine intensify with age. Same it helps I was also struck by by Blake's op Ed I also thought it was fabulous as someone who's worked a lot with With the American Jewish college students pointed to a lot of things that I saw when I was in college myself surprisingly not all that long ago also when I was When I've been working with college students Vince? I was struck by the reaction on twitter to it though from many Jews. Many kind of progressive Jews for Judaism. Judaism is very important to them and Israel in their own way is very important to them but they were going after this guy. I mean this this nineteen year old kid saying saying you know well good. You know you should have this rude awakening when you get To College campus the college campuses time to leave behind your childish childish misapprehensions about Israel. It's not actually a good place and now it's time for you to be woken up to it. And you're saying the Jewish community is is drawing too many lines right. I might say those people should. That's not the kind of civil discourse that belongs in the boundaries. Is it well. It's a really good question I have. I have two hugh responses to it. I mean one is my to me. The biggest sin is defining people out of the debate. I don't think we get anywhere by defining people out of the debate and except for some people I get it. I know this is a little bit of a difference of the Ford. I mean right I get it like you know right. We don't have to deeply engage with people who who are really Nazis. I get that but I'm just saying like really like the broad swath of American Jews believe there should be a Jewish state in and is royal and are worried about some aspects of it so really. That's a pretty big spectrum and like if you wanted to find a way or those red lines no no. I'm not my red line. I think certainly people who don't believe in do stage but in general recent book not to define people out of the debate. We should do that partly because we care about the community and the growth of Judaism and defining a lot of the debate is not a way to grow your audience or no matter what you're doing so that's my first response to it. It is. Let's not let's really work hard not to find people out of the debate as long as they are making a reasonable point and doing it. Respectfully the second thing I'd say is that I I know. No people have a very visceral reaction to the group if not now and it's part of some people think it should be defined the debate but the core of how those kids kids say. They started right which is a bunch of people who went to day schools who went to college or out into the world and felt betrayed by their education felt they had been things had been hidden from them rather than encouraging them to engage with the difficult aspects of our history and our complexity that is a failure of some levels. Everybody WHO's working in Jewish or Israeli education who works in summer camps religious schools works a day. Schools needs to really grapple with what a meaningful fair education is that is going to equip people with how to think how to engage and not let them feel betrayed shocked and whatever so I think that that response that they were having a good. It's you should you. You know face this chocolates like well but but why couldn't we. Why wasn't what's his name Blake? Why wasn't blake like all along like and I don't know anything about his background or education? Yeah but I'm just saying like people should not struggle with why people should not be asking your parents. Why did you keep this from me? And I think we should be mature were as a as a people and institutions in his. Family's and rascal with the difficult subjects whether it's Israel or anything else it's interesting. This is something I talk about a lot in my work I agree with you that we can't present. Israel is Jewish Disneyland where nothing bad ever happens and even the McDonalds is kosher right. That's not a recipe. The paper success for talking with our young people about Israel and and AJC's programs we do try to engage expose people to multiple narratives. But but but I also think that there's a tendency among some of the folks that you're talking about to throw away one childish simplistic Israel is good. Nothing bad ever happens there perspective for another another frankly childish simplistic Israel is bad. They have nothing good to contribute to the world perspective. What other place or problem or conflict is like that doc where everything is like? Oh it's just Disneyland. Or it's hell like things are not mostly things are complicated and have multiple perspectives and nuance a need deep engagement for understanding. And I mean this works well for journalism because otherwise we wouldn't have much to do if the world was really simple. We wouldn't have to explain it to people but I think that we're Jews we love complexity and nuance. I had a plan for this interview and we got a little bit derail because you're interesting interesting. Here's here's the little wrinkle. I wanted to introduce a net. We're going to to engage with the mirror image of when we bring up in a minute. The question I asked you what is the greatest is challenge facing American Jews. I'm also interested in hearing from you as an American Jew. How you think an Israeli might answer that question you know? You spent four for years in Jerusalem as the bureau chief for The New York Times. Put yourself back in those shoes in those Tabas in those note and thank you know what would an Israeli say is the greatest challenge facing American Jews today. You've totally distracted by mentioning my which have been out and okay anyway. Look I actually think it's not connected to the one I said at all I think that a lot of Israelis would say is the biggest problem facing Americans uses assimilation. And they probably wouldn't use that word. A simulates yeah. I don't know what is the word. No they wouldn't say that they would just say they're not Jewish enough. They don't know other Jews and I think that secular feel Neiman in Israel would actually. This is what they would say because one of them's was most enlightening lightening for me or that. I really learned going there after eating a reasonably connected Juke. For forty years here was what it means to be a sector you. There is so much more Jewish than what it means to be affected or juicier and I mean my best way of expressing this as as many people know a lot of Teela neom go hiking every about morning. That's like their religious thing to do on Saturday mornings and they either go with their families. They go hiking groups and the headaches that they take are generally through like Biblical we'll limbs and the stories that they tell on the hikes things that are teaching. Their kids are about our history. Actually it's a mix of Biblical and modern. Israel's history that there's sort of hiking through and so it's the secularism. Is this very strongly Jewish secularism and I think that they really think think that delegates the religious. We're not religious enough whether that's because they don't believe in liberal Judaism or whatever like performance and I think the second or Jus just think we don't know who we are. One of the things is committed to doing is bridging that divide right the Israel diaspora divide. So you're a communicator. How do we get people speaking the same language? How do we bridge the fact that their worries for US different from our worries for ourselves and vice versa? I got around to solve that problem. But that's a good question. Look I do think I mean. There's a small slice of it. But obviously the answer is exposure right so but like meaningful exposure so American Jews make Israel and don't actually engage with any Israelis in any meaningful way so finding more programs for lack of a better world so that people can sit in people's homes or go on hikes with families or whatever would be great. I definitely I know when I was writing some stories that it had to do with gala. -Tarian is the wall or things that these are these things that Americans care so much about and it was really really care about. I definitely heard from Israelis that when they come here their their perception of what like a reform synagogue is really often they come and they see and they're really surprised by that and very moved by that so I think both wheel exchanges changes both ways very meaningful Jodi. Thank you so much for joining us. Gail Nacion NASLUND. Shy is a former spokesman a former chair of the Israel Broadcasting Authority former senior vice president of the Jewish federations of North America and a former member member of Knesset for ten years for the Cadena Party and then the Labor Party. He has devoted his life to working for Israel and the Jewish people he is currently based at emory university right here in Atlanta where he will be Teaching a course Next semester on Israel's rarely politics Israeli league global diplomacy public public policy and. I'm thrilled to have him here with us. On people in the pod. Ladies and gentlemen please welcome Nachman Shai. We're going to get to the same kinds of questions that Jodi and I discussed but I want to start off with a really easy one. You've a decade of experience in in Israeli politics. Surely you can tell us. We'll be the next prime minister of Israel. I'm going to bet that Bibi is going to be Israel's Israel's next prime minister as well as the past prime minister Currently he's meeting with Benny. Many gods the chair of blue and White Party I assume prophets disappeared in our history. No longer But that's my assumption that he will be finally able to persuade the guns to join in his spot. His government and Lieberman would follow suit. But if I'm wrong I'm wrong. He's he can come and visit me in Planta thing here. You should be a political rival of yours right. You were in the Labor Party. Say It's not a matter of friendship disagree with most of Netanyahu's positions but I'm just watching the ways running his zone politics and it seems like as a better shots. Okay let's put it this way. six change blue and white is no no chance to form former coronation so going for the third time to general election. It says never happened in our history They may they lose what they have in their hands right now. Of course there may also win the elections. But I don't expect that to happen so if I were Benny gones. I know it's hard. It may cost him but he he should join Netanyahu. I'm just learning that's from from our political history All those who refused to join the Tony'll in the parties that I belong doc to dissipate typical evening. A shelia mortgage Muccio. They're all Ulster political position that they went otherwise does still exist on where the nice people and I like them a lot more or less but but that's the way it is so if Bennigans was actually a newcomer to politics He's been a chief of staff as you know. Spent some years as a business and just became a year ago if he wants to stand for it to survive. The best list option is to come and serve as Netanyahu in the government is currently the defense minister and maybe in rotation as is a prime prime minister that may be also the case about otherwise his prospect to survive seem to be very small very narrow because the entire entity called blue and white is not really a party. It's not really a party. Its composition of three different parties. That that Figured out that the best for them is to go in one block but when it comes to a real test like this one they go different ways yariel appeal and guns. This agree on the question whether they should join. The cornish will not that may bring about divide within blue new in white and other things. So I'm just sharing with you my own opinion or assessment. I've been ten years in the Knesset S. above in general. I've been in Israel all my life and it seems like BP is GonNa do it again but please don't blame me if it doesn't want I'm just trying to figure out what would be the next state. We know Actually tomorrow night guns John's to form the coalition expires then demanded goes to the entire kness sixty one members may suggest offer candidat. Ah that will be accepted by all of them. That would be very tough very tough so the next stage will be served election in one year. Let me just ask you one more thing before we dive into the meat. We were talking a little bit over. The course of this institute about about what happened happened yesterday about the announcement from Mike Pompeo. The trump administration about that America will no longer no longer holds illegal opinion that that settlements are our our legal according to international law. What what what do you think about that was that political to think I was political very political This was the last gift that the president can give Netanyahu in order to help him not much not much less snow. It was extremely important to Netanyahu to prove to his coalition members onto the entire Israeli. Public leaked can get the best from this administration and actually did Jerusalem Golan Heights. Uh now settlements. I don't know what else remand here. The Palestinians are probably also asking. What else remains? I'm not a spokesman for the Palestinians. But they have their own issues that I don't know if you're GONNA help you note but he will absolutely I use it when this morning too. She on right away to cash on that to make a statement and by the way Guccione's actually part of the national national consensus in Israel. so He'd been raised to much problems that goes. It's the only spot of Jerusalem even my belong to the Labor but I feel like the entire Jerusalem locks would remain under Israeli government in any future solution. The major question. There's a good tell you before. Safety is not about the sentiments is about Israel is about us and my asking myself. I'm not young. Unfortunately I wish I were belittling. I've been living there for quite a number of years And I'm asking myself in which country by seven grand daughters and song will live because when my parents immigrated to Palestine in the surtees from Belarus and from Poland they wanted to leave In a state later on in Jewish Democratic One and I the legacy okay I feel that I continued their way and I want my children and my grandchildren to go the same way because otherwise what's Israel is all about what if it's not Jewish and if it's not democtratic compel doesn't care and this administration doesn't care for what Israel is going. I WANNA be but I do and my friends do and we would like to make sure that this state will remain Jewish democratic aquatic. And if it's not but we fixed not what Israel what is it. It's another state in the won't if it's not like it is now with eighty twenty percent and we do have to respect the twenty percent minority of Arabs. The way the prime minister has been going talking about them recently. Not all looking for the destruction of the state of Israel. My goodness no because the dog does the talk does not the one the doctors that took care of me in Edessa Hospital. Recently all Arabs and the pharmacy. I'm going I to buy medicine. Are All Arabs. Do that do I trust them. I do believe together and the restaurant going to eat at night. Night is also an Arab neighbors we live together and I don't see is they want to destroy destroy Israel no chance anyhow we live together and this is the minority we are majority and we are delighted to live in Jewish with Jews. are the majority okay. But what if compels I don't know what was his vision and if he has a vision when it comes to Israel. What's the idea? So next next apple be annexation of the territory because if settlements are legal maybe annexation of the territory will be legal as well and then what twelve million thirty million people will believing between the Jordan River and the sea but only half of them are Jewish with is the highest birth rate in the Western world. We Israelis are doing very well. Okay my kids. I praise them every day. They've already told you seven grandchildren and maybe they will continue. It's not enough and the lady next sitting next to me has a son with seven children in Israel right eggs. Sorry sorry maybe he was born on the way it went through. Thank no sorry you told me eight so look so hard for me so let let me ask you this. This and I'm going to ask you. Let's instead of using that as a segway. Let's wipe the slate clean because I don't WanNa prime you to give a certain certain answer. Assume we hadn't just been talking about Israeli politics and Palestinians and Jewish democratic state. And all that if I just asked you cold what would you tell me if I asked the question. What is the greatest challenge facing Israeli Jews to survive just to survive first of all when I went to bed last night here in Atlanta? I couldn't sleep because few hours before. Four rockets we're fired from Syria into the Golan Heights. And I ask myself what the Hell is quite there. It's not because I'm doc in Israel but because just last week a week ago we were engaged with Gaza. Right this tweak. It's the Golan Heights next week. It will be probably Levin. It's not over it's not over. Israel's survival is is not secure also we have the best the greatest and the most sophisticated army or military military forces in the Middle East and we can beat and defeat every emmy and maybe all of them together we are not safe when thousands thousands of Israelis last night in the Golan Heights heard the red alert sign and went to protected areas. That means that they are not safe. So first of all like Israel to be safe and secondly as I said before to be a Jewish state and to be a democratic state and thirdly maybe falsely to be a moral state to preserve Jewish moral I believe in that I believe it exists in this our commitment so let me ask you the same flip that I asked. Jody and I want to acknowledge here. I'm not asking the easy question. Russian the easy question would be to ask you. What Israeli Jews think is the greatest challenge facing Americans? But I'm I'm pushing you as. I put jody to kind and think outside the box a little bit. I'm wondering can you put yourself in our shoes. What do you think we would say? Is the greatest challenge Josh facing Israel. Today I think that you will agree with me that the first challenge is to to survive and secondly okay I believe that you would like to see Israel and preserving the same values that kept you close to is is to ask for the last seventy years because those values are in danger okay. I cannot not analyze all the political shifts in Israel but I can tell you very openly. I feel home here with you guys because he was to meet you who in Israel and I know what you're doing in this country and I have a lot of appreciation to you the same values an from our side. Our indenture one of them is the relationship between Jews all around the world that most of the Israelis do not know and do not recognize but they are much more in there and the major thing is human rights to preserve human rights to respect minority to to look at someone else is and to tell yourself. I'm doing everything that he or she will be equal to me. We are equipped quick. Human beings are equal that. I'm not sure we do our best to maintain what to preserve in Israel today and this is when you look at us you asked yourselves. Where are all those values? Did they really disappear or they may come back nick sooner or later so you're teaching a course on on public diplomacy in Israel's public diplomacy. I guess I'm kind of wondering if there's a dissonance ascendance if there's some disagreement between promoting Israel through public diplomacy and also demanding that Israel hold itself to do a higher standard to to a certain is is. What would you like to see from American Jews? How do you allocate those resources? Sources between helping other Americans understand why it's so important to love Israel to stand by Israel to appreciate you as a relationship and and it sounds like you are worried about American Jews pushing back and saying that Israelis to hold itself to certain moral standards. No I I I do. Well I say something different things. When I talked to Jewish audience and non Jewish zealots legitimate from non-jewish audience expect to reach to respect Israel as a legitimate state is a normal one like any other the state in the world but of course it has to be legitimate because the entire campaign right now and by the way we discuss it earlier? It's not a new campaign it has been there for quite a long time in and see us some people with white tearing so you remember that. BBS Is just a new definition to other anti-israeli phenomena that that have been around for quite a number that's a new name but it hasn't changed the the essence the content of videos. But when I talk to non-jews just them Israel is normal state like any other state in deserves to be treated the same way it test given the same attitude by the world number other stage by international organizations and so on so for that I expect to happen mm-hmm and that's what we are fighting for as much as we can for a Jewish audience like you. I expect and excuse me for thing that you have to be involved in Israeli. I don sit on the fence and watch what's going on inside you. You are part of us and I know that this etiquette is not always welcomed some again. I was very much involved encouraging and relations between Israel and the US variety necessarily lead to caucuses on this relations on. I've done from a lot as much as I could as member and and before the world I invite you to take part in Israeli in public discourse internal one and to voice your opinions. Even if you don't live in Israel not only the lady sitting next to me with the sound John with eight grandchildren Israel. They'd be nine and I welcome everyone of believe me but now do not hesitate to express your own opinions about Israel because this is your responsibility as far as I can see it is Jews and if I don't regard it as intervention in his early offers a welcome your opinions. I would like to hear what you have to say and I won't tell you well. You live in Atlanta and you don't see four rockets in the air if you live in Atlanta you see other jobs take whatever usually style. Just airfoil putting America's Year of going on Delta planes back and there's ever now so if you feel that Israel is your second home you absolutely illegible to talk and discuss and so-called interfere in our life in Israel. This is your responsibility. As Joe's this is your state as much as it's ours hours. I know you feel a little bit intimidated. You said why mom we were told by former leaders of our organization of not please. The world's changed s festival. You know everything which is going in Israel. You don't need me any longer or any other emissary from from Israel not only that you have family members in Israel manual few center. It's to live in his. But because you can watch Israel in the news and you can learn. You're reading you know every every single team but secondly that just fourteen million Jews in the world that's all and each one should care for the other other. It's not that we leave Barron unit. Here we live together in the same planet and your life are extremely important to us. I hope so. Hello I do my best. An hour would be extremely important to you. Thank you so much for joining now. It's time for our closing segment. Shabat table talk joining us at our Chabad table. The Speakers Jessica Steinberg of the Times of Israel. Magno when you're talking with your family and friends at your table this weekend. What are you GONNA be talking? Yeah well I have a three year old daughter and a five year old son and so we will be talking a lot about sesame street this week which celebrated its golden anniversary anniversary. Did you watch this mystery as a kid I did. Yeah Jessica what about you absolutely. And who are your favorite characters. I was always partial to Mr snuffle up this big bird's imaginary best friend and go what about you. I did love big bird a lot. And Ernie and Bert really really were probably my favorites. Though actually wonderful and I was dismayed to find out recently watching it with my children that Mr Smith Aleph guess is no longer I quote unquote quote figment of big birds imagination. Everyone sees him. It was very disappointing to the ranks of the real monsters. Wow that's like saying the tooth fairy doesn't exist well. My favorite character was kermit the frog especially his portrayal of TV news reporter which should come as no surprise But I might soon have a new favorite character and his name is John. John has been introduced to children will be introduced to children in Syrian refugee camps as has one of them he is the Star of Alan Simpson or welcome sesame an Arabic language version of sesame street that has been co produced by sesame workshop and the the International Rescue Committee it teaches letters and numbers. Yes but it also teaches emotional coping measures for the millions. Yes millions of children who have been traumatically they displaced from their homes and may remain displaced for decades especially as countries like the United States. Continue to cut the number of refugees at allows in twelve million Elian refugees. Twelve million six million of them are children and those are the stats get this only two percent of humanitarian aid for education in For refugees two percent and so once again sesame street has come to the rescue just as it did in the late nineteen sixty s when it first debuted John his friend Bosma and Friendly Goat Maza debut in twenty countries across the Middle East in February twenty twenty via satellite dishes in the refugee camps. And from time to time there will be guest appearances by Cookie Monster Grover and elmo. I have to say cookie monster was one of my favorites as well. The project is funded with a one hundred million dollar grant from the Macarthur Foundation and the grant also covers direct services to the families whose children have never been outside the camps and therefore they don't know fundamentals that we take for granted such as imagination or basic information like fish. Come from the sea while the focus will be more on emotional tools these fundamentals annals will also be covered as well and I really do applaud sesame workshop for taking this project on and I say. AJC is also exploring new ways to reach out to The era world in the Arabic language. And we'll be hearing more about that in the months to come but this project in particular is just really fascinating to me. And that's what we'll be talking about at our Table Jessica Jessica. What will you be talking about at your table We'll we'll be planning ahead for next week. which is Thanksgiving for us as America? Even the we are Americans living in Israel. I've been living in Israel for twenty nearly twenty five years and in all of those years. I have never missed a Thanksgiving public because because it just hearkens back to my childhood growing up in Long Island New York where we were the rabbis family and we never missed a Thanksgiving because it was that holiday that we felt like everyone else Coming to Israel even though it's a holiday that makes me hot like everyone else it's Becomes as funny way that Americans celebrate their American in Israel. You have to order your Turkey weeks in advance he have to scour the Russian supermarkets for cranberries U For many years you had to cook your own Pumpkin. In order to make any kind of Pumpkin dish now you can get canned Pumpkin Hunkin. Oh Wow and really all the all the important side dishes in main dishes for this holiday and for a long time I only invited American friends I would not invite any Israeli rally friends. Our Russian friends or friends arabic-speaking friends I would only invite people who had American who are Americans by nationality. This no all these years later. I'm a little bit easier about it. But it's a tradition. I really like to teach to my kids and that we do actually on Thursday and end again on Friday night because we of course don't have off on Thursday but we'll be planning ahead for next week so you make Thanksgiving a Chabad celebration liberation as well. You combine it. We do we do. We do it on Thursday with the friends and on Friday night we have family I have extended family living in Israel. They come uh-huh and they eat thanksgiving with us. We make that funny Turkey. Kala that circulated on facebook and social media a few years ago and and we basically basically make to Turkey's two days in a row kind of insane something that even my mother never would've done and to the extent that I even wrote a children's book about it a few years years ago called this Turkey which was a PD library book? And also what a couple of awards and essentially it's about a a real life family back in the early nineteen fifties living in New York and they were immigrants from Germany and they celebrated their first Thanksgiving when the father won a Turkey at his factory job and they didn't know how to prepare Turkey. And you know hilarity ensues as he brings home the live Turkey on the subway escapes from him. And Yeah I mean. I'm more engaged in Thanksgiving probably than I ever would be. If I had stayed in the states. That's awesome. I am going to seek out that. PJ Jay Library book for my kids sounds Hilarious. It is pretty funny. Well enjoy. Enjoy your meal or meals. I should say Steffi. How about you? Well a major focus of the J. C. Board of Governors program. I was at in Atlanta. This week was the future of black Jewish relations these were inspiring conversations and it is great to know that my colleagues are doing this crucial work but while thinking about the future of black Jewish ties I was reminded of a truly remarkable part of black Jewish Jewish history that I think I'll be sharing my Chabad table this week. When the Supreme Court ruled that school segregation was illegal in one thousand nine hundred fifty? Four's Brown v Board Vet Decision. One important factor in that was the work of Dr Kenneth and Mamie Clark pioneering black psychologists and actually the first and and second black people to get. PhD's in psychology from Columbia University in their famous doll test. The couple of black and white children Black Jack and white dolls and ask them which toys they preferred which were smarter which were prettier. The black children and white children both preferred the white dolls. The Clark's used this result to highlight the ways in which segregation was harmful to the emotional development and self esteem of black kids. Their work was clearly persuasive because in his decision Chief Justice Earl Warren writing for the unanimous court specifically cited the doll test as one of the reasons. The court was striking down segregation. What does all this have to do with? Aj see well. This is not widely known. But Kenneth and Mamie Clark's critical. Research was funded by a grant from Jason Jason in a press release welcoming the court's decision. AJC said in the midst of the free world struggle against the forces of totalitarianism America has once again demonstrated that democratic practices must constantly be invigorated. Therein lies the essence and the strength of the democratic spirit. It for all the world to see. It's become clear in the sixty plus years since Brown that segregation in public schools. Hasn't really gone away and black. Jewish relations are in an uncertain place right now but all American Jews should take pride in how our community has long tried to be on the right side of history and we should commit ourselves to putting in the work to improve black Jewish relations in a serious way. And I think I'll be bringing that to my show about table this week show botulism. Everybody Salaam You can subscribe to people of the pod on itunes Google play or spotify or learn more at AJC dot org slash people of the pot the views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC and the Times of Israel. We'd love to hear your views and opinions or your questions. You can reach us at people of the pod at AJC DOT Org. If you like this podcast sure rated and writer of you to help more listeners. Find US thank you for listening. This episode Sodas brought to you by AJC and the Times of Israel. Our producer is condo are sound engineer is tk Broddrick tune in next week for another episode of people. Love the pod God.

Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netany Jerusalem Atlanta Knesset America The New York Times Prime Minister AJC prime minister editor in chief US Jewish federations of North Am Ronen Bergman John Israel Broadcasting Authority Yahoo publisher Attorney General
The Man Who Sedated Eichmann

Rough Translation

31:46 min | 1 year ago

The Man Who Sedated Eichmann

"Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from Virgo struggling to find the perfect vacation home. Verb does the hard work for you. Matching you to the perfect place to stay every time download VR B oh in the app store. Let Virgo find the home that matches you. The massad is the Israeli version of the CIA think top secret spies agents who denied they work there. So I was surprised to learn that there has been a tradition where one day a year, the massad throws open its doors to the families of the employees and accuse us to come. Wait, the massad has take your son or daughter to work day? Why not? Up near our home is a former Mossad agent with a passion for history. He would set up these elaborate exhibits for the kids with say a typewriter from the fifties. The typed in Morse code or polls by gear you have television, but inside, you can find common era. I think that all objects got energy. One day, a top guy told him he had something to show him in a refrigerated archive in the massad basement was in the corner. Ten boxes stuff all from one old operation. It looks like someone say, okay, let's put everything in boxes and put it in the corner, and don't touch it for fifty years of near fines, an old like a camera. A kid to make fake license plates, a pocket diary in code. I remember the open one of the envelope a Brown envelope. And they so all these very possible from the fifth Israeli passports, from the fifties had blue cough and gold letters, the opens. One of them the name is in Hebrew, Zev Zerhouni, if you was late the is wolf as Ronnie is memory, the wolf of my memory its codename, the picture on the passport is Adolf. Eichmann. Adolf Eichmann was hit. There's masterminded transportation he made sure the trains the death camps ran smoothly. And after the war, he escaped to Argentina until he was captured by massad and brought to Israel and his trial injuries lem in nineteen sixty one was broadcast all around the world. Judges people crowded around their radios and TV's accused adult I am more than one hundred holocaust survivors took the stand to tell their story do not stand alone at the time. Most people had never heard these stories public, these interior in Israel, which was full of refugees telling these stories was taboo. Got the fit with Israel self image of resistance and strength by each is says locker at the survivors were seen as victims. They were called lambs to the slaughter and lambs don't speak, but I have my. Puts them the Aikman trial became the setting to flip that script victims became prosecutors of the Nazi in the dock. Here with me at this moment. Then six million prosecutors. The Eichmann trial gave Israel a new story to tell about a nation that had suffered a wrong and was ready and able to exact Justice, and it created the legend of the massad this young spy agency from tiny new country. The discovered I was hiding under false name in Argentina, then tracked him staked him out in his home kidnapped him sedated him dressed him in a flight crew uniform and snuck him onto a plane Israel with Argentina authorities. None the wiser, this is the capture story that would be told and retold in books and documentaries and feature films and taught in his Rayleigh, high schools and the agents became national heroes, with books and memoirs of their own. That's the story that of near found in these basement boxes. And he's asked to make show for the public, the first museum exhibit by the massad about itself, some massad PR at a moment when the massad is being especially criticized for secret assassinations and is exhibit. It's hit. It goes. Up in Jerusalem, and then Tel Aviv, and then they're invited to Cleveland and then Skokie Illinois and New York City in Florida, New Orleans, and everywhere. He goes this odd thing happens. He's approached by people who say you forgot to include my dad. Why didn't you write the name of my father all the years? He used to say that he was one of the people that capture. Right, man. We know he took party was there. He was in the car one guy's dad booked hotel rooms for the agents. Someone's mom had a backup safehouse a guy in New York had the job of going to the post office, each day to take all the mail from the Argentine sources and put it in a new envelope for Tel Aviv is amazing all the time. This someone in the audience that have a connection. Everyone wanted a piece of this story everyone that is except one person who was closer to the heart of this capture than anybody else. And yet, he did not want any part of the story. My father didn't want to talk about. Anything? I'm Gregory Warner. This is rough translation, the show that takes you to far off places with stories that hit close to home this season of stories. It's been all that rebels. We've brought you stories of people challenging government corruption in Iraq. Others trying to rewrite the French-Language this story it's about a different kind of rebellion quieter kind. 'cause you'd think if you're a part of something big and important to your nation, you would want your name in the history books today. We meet someone who did completely the opposite erased himself from the story and his kids would spend years asking themselves. Why arguing about it? And some of those arguments revolved around just one object, an object, that of Nair, the massad curator was trying to hunt down this mission to bring the needle rough translation back after break. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from delta, delta flies to three hundred cities around the world. That's three hundred cities where many people do the same things you do. That's three hundred cities where people in those three hundred cities think they're the only ones who know about that one place and three hundred cities where people miss someone in one of Delta's other two hundred ninety nine cities. Delta is in flying at three hundred cities merely to bring people together but to show that we're not that far apart in the first place. Delta, keep climbing. Mitch McConnell has become a champion for conservatives. But back in the day, he wants got support from groups like labor unions market down as one of the worst things I've done my life, C thought about over the years. You'll think about his face Mitch McConnell new series from embedded subscribe, now we're. Back with rough translation in our story is about the doctor who injected the sedative into arm, and then accompanied him through the airport in weta Saudis. Both men dressed in flight crew uniforms with starched white shirts. Blue trousers stars of David on their caps. This was innocence, the trickiest part because they had to pass off to airport authorities as just a member of the crew, who's feeling sick. That's why the doctoral was with him. He needs to into keep him like it both. What does that mean like puppet like is not leaping? He can speak it kennel. The scream. He cannot he looks very sick and in one thousand nine hundred sixty with the anesthetics of the time was that difficult to do to put him in exactly that twilight. That's why he was a professional his colleagues considered him this magician. He was a legend in his field. Daniel estrin Jerusalem correspondent for NPR. Been digging into the doctor story. He was the anesthesiologist, who would be called upon whenever a baby even a preemie needed to be operated on the doctor died some years ago. But I know he would not have talked to me anyway, he probably would have shut me out as he did everyone who wanted to hear a story. So I ended up meeting with his son Danny in a noisy Tel Aviv. Cafe. Danny spent his life. He tried to figure out his father's mystery. Danny's, a trim guy in his sixties. He's got two kids. He's a cardiologist. Like his dad, he loves the artifacts of his profession, a he actually has a collection of heart stance. He's removed from patients, bodies mounted. He tells the world's largest collection, the hospital where he works is the same one where his dad was the director of the anesthesiology department. They call them Eliane number two. Bench. Second. I mean it's really funny. I'm thirty one years in the hospital, I'm still considered the son of Dr alien here as a kid, Danny remembers his father being gone a lot. He was always on call, travelling to different hospitals around, Israel. But one of those trips Danny remembers when he was eight years old, he woke me up really in the morning, it was a little kid and sort of kissed me goodbye. And he told me he was going to a lot, a lot is about four hours south of Tel-Aviv, but he was gone for weeks. And they have this really strong memory when he came back. He gave me a pistol a toy pistol. And the butt of the pistol was from ivory, and I was like, wow. They have such beautiful things in a latte. I was. I was shocked. Yeah. Right. My brother remembers the pistol, and I remember getting a dole. Danny has a twin sister emiri Mary Halpern family. And she also remembers this trip, then she remembers the gifts. What was the dull that you remember, just a girl likes didn't have many? Mary as a kid was more into soccer than dolls. But even she had the same reactions brother like, wow, you can buy such beautiful things in Israel in Israel fifty years ago, you could not get things so easy to get now. So this will very small signs that something may be not usually is going on. You mean there may be more to your father than you realize? Yeah. They didn't even know which country. Those gifts had come from until they were teenagers in high school, and Danny was hanging out with some friends and they're talking about the IFA capture. I mean, a group of friends were kind of talking something about Eichmann and one of them turned to music. Maybe this is your father, who is Dr involved, Danny had no clue what this kid was talking about had one of his father's long trips been for the Mossad to sedate and kidnap a well-known Nazi, Dan, and gets home from school, and he asked his dad, did you did you do that? Okay. Was like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Very sort of typical nonchalant way. He kind of acknowledged it and just moved on. Repeatedly we asked, and he didn't want to share any information. You said it's my right. Not to say anything to anybody. This. Silence provoked almost opposite reactions in his two children, the twins while her brother went to med school and became Eliane number two myrie, left, Israel, and she stopped asking her dad questions. It was not a storyteller Edel was, was very quiet. I don't like the net limelight either. He just didn't like some people like it. He doesn't he didn't why he must have had his reasons vary says, in Israel, where military service is mandatory many people have done things that they just can't talk about in public in these everybody's involved in these things than the Mossad. Everybody has kind of secret activities. It's not that unusual. What do you mean? Everybody's both in many people are involved in the Mossad in Israel. Did you work for the Massat knowing if I would I wouldn't tell you? Unlike his sister, Danny was not the type to let secrets lie show Neiman books about many times asked him. I'll, but why won't you talk about this? Let's so secret. Everybody knows about it. So what, what's the big deal? His father did eventually give him one answer. You talk about that, as a doctor, he didn't feel quite right about using his knowledge. His power against somebody's will it's against the book critic oath. The Hippocratic oath, the pledge that med students take that a doctor should I do. No harm to their patients. Danny is a doctor himself. He could agree that, yes, technically his father had brought harm. Teichmann sedated him against his will. I told him I understand the argument, but the Hippocratic oath. I mean it's so unfitting for the situation. And I told him about this is not just any person this icon, we're talking about mass murderer mass killer. But that's he was adamant about that. It seemed like his dad might have rented his role in this historic mission. Villa in the cafe. I asked Danny about that, about his dad's regret. He did not like that word. They just don't feel like he regretted regret is just not the right word absolutely. I never heard him say, I regret. He says the headline here is not Dr regretted his role in Iceland capture that would be unthinkable here. Israel is a country where everything is up for debate except for iceman there's no debate about human. And maybe there is something really uncomfortable about your father, not only refusing to take credit for it, but thinking something about it was wrong. So one day, his father gets an invitation to come to the Israeli parliament, the Knesset and accept an award for his part in Aikman's capture. Everyone's invited and Danny does not want his dad's seat empty. I don't think I need to explain that. Somebody takes part of such an operation, he should get credit. And I really, really tried to convince him to do it to go to the Knesset and received this certificate. And of course, my father doesn't want anything to do with it. So the sun comes up with a plan, his daughter, just graduated high school and joined the army, and in Israel society, there's mandatory military service. If this huge source of pride for your kids to serve, so he convinces her to come in uniform on a Friday afternoon before, but to have a heart to heart. You know, like look at your granddaughter. The soldier in the army. Man, I thought, maybe I'll use the fact that she's a soldier and that'll somehow, you know, get him to agree to go that was their plot was steadfast in his refusal. So I told them, why don't you just let us accept the certificate for you? And right before Chabad, his son is there, his granddaughter's there and the doctor Berlin, so yeah, so me and my daughter, we went to the Knesset and received the certificate and his name is the honing. Accept the certificate did not have his name on it because even here in parliament. His father had figured out a way to keep his name out of the story. The award said to Dr olive olive is the first initial of his last name. It's like saying, Dr e Eliane. Eliane. So we accepts his dad's of ward, but he's about to learn a darker reason behind his father's silence. And it starts when his father gets a phone, call out of the blue from an Israeli guy who says, basically. Am I speaking to Dr? Yona. Elian. You killed my father. Can we talk? This message coms from NPR sponsor weeks dot com. Rough translation connects listeners to untold stories from around the world with wicks. Create your own professional website to connect your own stories. Choose a template you love and customize it with your own text images and videos with hundreds of intuitive design features. You can tell your story or someone else's exactly the way you want. Get started now by going to wicks dot com. That's W I X dot com slash translation to get ten percent off support. Also comes from smile direct club. How long does it take to get a lifetime of confidence? You can get a smile. You'll love about six months with smile direct club. Smile direct clubs straighten your teeth with invisible liners sent directly to you go online and book a free three D scan at one of their smile shops or order an at home impression kid, they'll Email the preview of your new smile. Get one hundred dollars off at smile. Direct club dot com. Slash podcast offer code ref one hundred. After James rebels murdered in nineteen sixty five there was a national outcry, the back of the scene of the crime in Selma. Alabama Guinea, people responded differently, so what happened, and what could Justice look like all these years, later, NPR's, new podcast. White lies is seeking answers. Listen and subscribe now. I'm Gregory Warner. We're back with rough translation. It's understand the origin of that strange phone, call in how it change things between the doctor and his son. We should tell you about a twenty year hunt by one of Israel's most famous journalists for details. About a different Masada operation that turned out to have everything to do with Aikman. The journalist is Ronin Berkman, these senior national security correspondent for you. The Conal in stuff, rider full, the new times magazine is investigation centered on a secret safe in the Israeli government archives. And in that safety phone, five. Which proved that something that was whispered is a sort of an urban legend throughout the years. Something that nobody actually knew when is right or wrong. It's just a rumor. Was in fact, one hundred percent right. So shy say briefly, what the story is tell me that story. This was actually the story of an Israeli army officer his name was Alexander Israeli. And as the story goes this, Mr. Israeli was desperate for money and turned against his country in nineteen fifty four. He flies out of Israel with a suitcase full of military secrets and offers to sell them to the embassy in Rome. The massad. Wanted to get him. This is like the very first years of, of Israel. The, the Mossad is this new intelligence agency, and the head of the Mossad realizes. This is a great opportunity to prove ourselves to prove, what we can do they decide to kidnap him and bring him back to Israel to stand trial. And they recruit a legendary anesthesiologist for the job. The magician doctor if Dr Yona Elian, the Assads plan may sound very familiar, young agency wants to prove itself by kidnapping someone overseas, sedating him and bringing him to trial that was I commit story, but I had not happened yet. This was six years before that. And actually, this story is almost kind of an alternate version of the story in which everything that can go wrong, does this is not the Mossad that everyone is heard about this is not a slick operation. It's an amateur job from the very beginning. Problem was to find him. They did find him. In Rome said they dispatch Israeli students to go search for him in train stations across Europe, any turn out to be an just another fiasco, because the, the police in, in two of these countries realize that something is going on. They finally find him by accident in Vienna, but it's not until they lower him to Paris that they managed to grab him. The doctor examines him injects him with a sedative, and as he will do later with iceman he boards with him on a plane to Israel, and this is where VS co turns into catastrophe because when they land in Israel, the guy they were supposed to bring back to stand trial is dead. The doctors drugs, somehow killed him. And this is not only a failure of the mission the Mossad at the time had a mandate, we do not induce the Mossad does not kill Jews. If these details get out, this will make the Mossad look, really bad. There was by far less criticism in there was a naive belief in the public that everything that these people are doing is good. Bright in just the Mossad chief orders, the plane flown back up over the Mediterranean Sea, and the body is tossed out of the plane. They race his name from the army records, the guy's wife and son or never told the only civilian, and Israel, who knows firsthand about this cover up is doctor Yona Elian. And he's ordered to keep quiet fifty years later, Ronin, the journalist learns about that file in the safe and starts writing articles about this story. And that's when the doctor gets that phone call from the son of the guy who died on the airplane and the doctor quickly gets off that call. And then he calls his own son. Get this phone call. My father. My father was really, distraught told me listen son of the soldier, just called me. He wants to meet with me. Do me a favor. You talk. So I call him up and I told them listen. My father's old. He doesn't want to revisit these things just doesn't want to. And I'm, I'm really I'm really asking you to just let let this be Danny says he actually explained to the sky. Look, my father doesn't talk to anybody, and this guy, you know, he's the son of an accused trader he's not going to push it. He said, well, if some point later he wants to talk. Let me know. So when I heard this, I called up the sky the son of Alexander Israeli. Hi, good morning. Oh, I wanted to know what it was like for him this conversation between two sons both struggling with the doctors silence. We made a plan to meet. Okay. But then he canceled, I called again and his wife told me it was too sensitive. He just did not want to revisit this. Danny the doctor son wanted to talk with his dad about this, but he wondered if his dad had refused to talk about his successful capture with Aikman how much less was he going to say about this botched operation where he'd failed emission. Danny waits Burs moment? And he finds his father is actually willing to talk about what happened on the terrible airplane ride. He tells them they were into coda airplane, which is a World War Two cargo plane with propellers. It's unheeded. It's freezing. And there's turbulence, so the cabin pressure is going up and down and all of this affected how the sedative interacted with patient, and that's why the man died and this is not an emotional confession. This is more like two doctors discussing case. But I know that this thing like this story this incident really sat my father. I mean it really really stayed with him. It wasn't long after that Danny is over at his dad's house and his dad tells him wait here and he goes into his room and comes back with a plastic bag with the needle inside and tells them, this is the needle I used to put item to sleep. And Danny says he never even knew his father had kept it. Lou money. Smart. I went back to see Danny. So Jen, just took this silver box out of his briefcase and he shows me the needle. This new DNA show. Can I hold it? Never does. And it's really a striking object. It's made of metal it's got a handle with a leather grip that scissors out like a switchblade. Oh, wow. And in my hand, the needle fuel surprisingly small is much cotton. The dog show, not with all the gum. The dole gums is, this is not a tiny thing at all. If you ask me, I'm doctor, this is a big needle. It's unwieldy. It's hard to use. It's mental and the middle needle can cause blood clots, but that's what he had measly Mitch. Bubbles. They made sure yes. And on the baggy that the needle came in. Okay is a small sticker with a note that his father had written in English in this kind of shaky handwriting. Iceman needle zamba tough cover Danny's looking at this known. This is the only piece of his dad's handwriting. He has left. It was only a few months after the doctor gave his son this needle that he killed himself at home alone in his house, and he left no note. Neither Danny nor his sister thinks his death had anything to do with Aikman. They think he was getting old and frail and oppressed. I've struggled with this question. And I still wonder. It struck me that this gift of the needle was like last will while Kamala. Savona Masha Ziming. And he says, yes could be middle. Cuche amount. That's much. Danny looks at the label and he says it's interesting because he didn't need the reminder, but he wrote it anyway. And to him, it means his father cared about this history being preserved. Maybe he didn't want his name or his voice associated with it. But he did think this object was worth saving. Danny and Mary, the doctor's children, they disagree about most things when it comes to their father, they disagree about whether talking more would have helped him and about how often he was gone when they were kids, they even disagree about which of them received this gift. Mary says it was her. He gave it to not her brother. But when he gave it he left, no instruction it was up to them to decide what to do next. My brother's regarded this as a national treasure and said that these doesn't belong to us and brought it to them. Use them. He said that the always to the country to give it to, to the museum. For dan. Eat. This was his big chance to finally get his father in the history books. He got the needle photographed in the newspaper. He called up museums to find a home for it, and eventually of, near the museum guide. The Mossad found him cola Danny. He gives me the middle for the exhibit, and that's where I saw the needle for the first time in that Tel-Aviv exhibit under glass. There's just something so physical about it and intimate. And you'll imagine that thing and I've men's arm and that was the object that made me want to learn the story of the doctor and find out who he was and what he went through. But if you go to that exhibit today, you're not gonna see that needle. The you took it for me. I'd be happy to needle back and put it in the exhibit. With. And they also offer him to owner this father and put his name in, in the. Intelligence. These really center. But he didn't cooperate. Denny decided that this needle did not belong with the Massod's traveling show. And in this respect he came around to his sister's point of view. Their father gave them this needle. He did not give them story to go with it. It was as a significant needn't for him. I think it meant something to him without expressing what it was. On my last meeting. I asked Danny what the needle now means to him. Mahad muscial Shubin to Lama Holly. Follow Gani told me the needle is an important part of the story. But it does not replace the stories. The revelations confessions, that never were loyal with talk of south in a way this needle connects. These two stories in the doctor's life, six years apart where he did the exact same job for his country injected a wanted man in a plane with such different results in one. He was glorified in national triumph in the other made complicit in a government, cover up in one. He was asked to be hero in the other ago. St-. So his son decided in the end that the right place for this needle was where his dad kept it in Detroit. Limousine. Stay in the family. He's gonna pass it on to his kids, and then it'll be on them to decide what to do with the legacy. Today's show was produced by just Jiang. Marion mccune is our editor and so many people listen to this piece and made it better. Thank you to Larry cap, low Middle East editor Karen Duffin, quil Lawrence, and Heiferman, Alex, Goldmark Santa Krassikov, and you'll come out who was also the interpreter for Danny. Kyw's co-creator of fantastic bilingual podcast. Israel's story. They're out with their next season in June. And Ronen Bergman wrote the book Reisen kill I the secret history of Israel's targeted assassinations. Thanks. Also, to Matt Orton for his help end to our new rough translation entered autumn Barnes. The rough translation executive team is Neil Caruth will Dopson and under Grun Mun Sarah night. Fact, check this episode mastering by Andy huger John Ellis. Composed music I show mccune and Mike Cruz scored the episode if you'd like more stories like this in your podcast feed telephone about the episode right a review. It always helps drop us your thoughts at rough translation, NPR dot org, or on Facebook. I'm. Gregory Warner back in two weeks. With more rough translation.

Danny Israel Mossad Aikman Adolf Eichmann Gregory Warner Mary Halpern Tel Aviv Mitch McConnell Dr Yona Elian NPR CIA Rayleigh massad Alexander Israeli Jerusalem Israeli parliament New York City
The Secret Push to Strike Iran

The Daily

30:12 min | 1 year ago

The Secret Push to Strike Iran

"From the new york times i'm michael bavaro. This is the daily active pursuit of technology technology that could lead to nuclear weapons threatens to put a region already known for instability and violence under the shadow. Oh of a nuclear holocaust for almost two decades the united states and israel have tried to stop iran from developing nuclear <unk> weapons. The thread must be stopped by all possible means israeli prime ministers including benjamin netanyahu international community must stop iran before it's too late have pushed for a military strike on iran to end the nuclear threat a prospect long opposed by u._s. Presidents agents who fear it would drag the u._s. into war today in twenty ten after two years of negotiations that fear helped prompt president obama to seek a diplomatic alternative comprehensive long-term deal with iran that will prevent it from obtaining nuclear weapons iran nuclear deal a deal so detested by netanyahu that he vowed to block. It doesn't make peace more likely it makes war more likely last year. Netanyahu netanyahu got what he wanted. I am announcing today that the united states will withdraw from the iran nuclear deal when president trump pulled out of the historic agreement mocking israel the u._s. and iran in a tense standoff. It didn't bring calm. It didn't bring in peace and it never will that is the commonly understood story of how we got to this moment today months of reporting and dozens of interviews by my colleagues mark mazzetti and ronen bergman have revealed a secret history and shown how close we came off to war. It's friday september sixth mark. We're going to talk about four of the key findings from your reporting. Where should we start with. One of the most interesting findings is that netanyahu's push for war may have helped lead obama toward a nuclear deal with iran that netanyahu despised and how so exactly obama netanyahu <hes> who come to power right around the same time the beginning of two thousand and nine and from the beginning. They've got a pretty bad relationship. Is i believe leaving the interest not only of the palestinians but also the israelis and the united states and the international community to achieve a two state solution russian obama is really pushing netanyahu on the issue of palestinian peace freezing settlements in the west bank iran openly calls calls for our destruction which is unacceptable standard and netanyahu really wants to push the issue of you've iran and the iran i indicated to him. The view of our administration that iran is a country of extraordinary history and extraordinary potential that we want them to be a full fledged member of the international community the u._s. and israel agree on a couvert campaign to try to sabotage the iranian nuclear program and it works for a period of time but it starts reaching diminishing returns around two thousand nine two thousand and ten and it really then begins this question of will then what and that's where both netanyahu and a hood barack who was kind of a legendary figure in the country he was a war hero and at that time he was the the defense minister and one of the leading advocates pushing this idea with the americans there needs to be some kind of military action and no option should be removed so this is our policy we minute and the israeli start preparing for how will they. He develops war plans. They start running training missions that might replicate a strike on iran. They send drones to a secret base in john on to fly into iran to take pictures of nuclear facilities and also kind of detest the air defences of iran to see whether an actual real live attack might work <music> a real provocation. That's right and the u._s. is watching this there watching the israeli flights into iran and because of this growing mistrust trust between the two sides. There's this real question of will israel strike and would they even tell us in advance so the u._s. has now spying on israel yeah they're spying on israel spying on her own and because of this growing apprehension about what israel might do there is the decision in the obama administration to set a diplomatic path totally independent of israel and so that then then leads to in late twenty ten dennis ross who's the head of iran policy. The national security council is on a flight to amman with another white house aide trying to begin the very earliest negotiations for what would ultimately lead to the twenty fifteen iran nuclear deal. You don't pursue superior because you know you can always achieve it. You don't always engage because you know what the result is going to be but this engagement produces the result. You can always predict you so it's out of fear that israel will drag the united states into war that the u._s. begins pursuing negotiation with iran we talked to dennis ross and he said absolutely <hes> he said the israeli pressure played a factor in the opening of this diplomatic channel that he was part of and did israel understand that these negotiations with iran were beginning. No there was a conscious decision not to tell israel and they kind of went to extraordinary lengths to keep a very small circle of people in the know that this diplomatic channel had been opened and they even cut out the american ambassador israel dan shapiro who is the main interlocutor with israeli officials on a daily and hourly basis and throughout this period of time. They're asking asking shapiro if the u._s. is talking with iran and he saying no. They're not and eventually he's brought back to washington and he's told hey that thing. You've been saying to the israelis. You can't say that anymore because that's not true because it's not true and that's a very interesting finding in our reporting was this was a real debate and discussion in the obama administration ration- of a weather to tell the israelis and some people now think it was a mistake not to tell them why the argument to not tell them was that the relationship between netanyahu and obama <hes> had been so fractured that a lot of people were pretty certain including the president himself that if you told netanyahu he would leak out the news to try i to scuttle any kind of possible deal in so the stakes were too high to bring netanyahu into the discussion others now say these rallies we're gonna find <music> out anyway and by not telling them we made a bad situation even worse israel found at anyway in the middle of two thousand twelve twelve we find out in our reporting the head of massad israel's intelligence agents go to netanyahu and he says united states is having this back channel discussions with iran and we asked in yahoo about this and he claims that he wasn't angry he sort of suspected that he long thought the obama wanted to do a deal with iran this kind of buttress that but several other israeli officials we spoke to said they were furious that this was as you know israel's greatest ally the united states secretly negotiating with israel's greatest enemy iran and it was a breach of trust. I that could never be accepted <hes> so obama's mistrust of netanyahu influences his decision to seek these negotiations with iran so the mistrust also prompts the u._s. to keep israel out of the loop and that leads to a nuclear deal that prompts netanyahu to completely mistrust the u._s. That's right this deal. Demonstrates that american diplomacy can bring about real and meaningful change change that makes our country and the world safer and more secure what a stunning historic mistake israel is not bound by this deal with iran because you continues to seek our destruction we will always defend ourselves <music> okay so what's your next finding our reporting shows that israel was far closer to striking iran in twenty twelve twelve than was previously known. What's the evidence of that. Netanyahu is trying for some time to get his government behind and the idea of an iran strike. There's the scene in november twenty ten where he gathers all of his top officials to sort of game out the idea of whether they could do a striking aching whether they should do a strike and netanyahu finds is pretty much everyone's against it except him enabled brock reporting show about the opposition position within his cabinet. What is their argument for continually rejecting us. The primary argument is that it's not not feasible that israel doesn't have the capacity to do any kind of strike that would deliver a fatal blow to iran's nuclear program. It did not at that time have was critically believed. Which is this super powerful bomb a bunker buster bomb that would have been able to they hoped destroy in an underground facility in iran called fourtou. Only the united states had that bomb and israelis were trying to get it from the united states and obama refused to give it it's on them and so the feeling was that this could be a suicide mission with little effect and it's pretty interesting. The united states and obama in particular knew knew about the descent in netanyahu's ranks and there's one senior account in our reporting where a hood barack obama are having a meeting and barack is making his case for why they needed to strike and obama says yeah but your own military people don't want it and and barack has this line to obama he says yeah but when they look up they see us meaning me netanyahu but when we look up we only see the sky hi meaning we can do whatever we want right and so this sort of escalates into the summer of twenty twelve when u. S. satellites satellites start picking up what they think are early indications of some kind of an israeli strike. This is just months before obama's up for reelection in fact you governor romney mitt. It's a pleasure to welcome you. In jerusalem of we've known each other for many decades netanyahu is he is making no secret that he supports mitt romney obama's competitor. You said that the greatest danger facing the world is of the ayatollah regime possessing nuclear weapons capability. I couldn't do more and there's this thought in the united states states that maybe netanyahu would do a strike in the weeks before an election to tie obama's hands wow that he would have to support it because has electoral politics would determine the united states would have to come to israel's defense if israel went to war with iran so there's a lot of complicated complicated things going on and the united states is pretty concerned at that time that netanyahu just might strike in an interview we had with him and he said <hes> well i would have i was planning on it. Yes before the election. Yes i was going to do it but i could never get the full support of my cabinet senate now some question whether netanyahu really would have pulled it off but he's told us it was absolutely something he was prepared to do but in in the end even ehud barak flips he decides that a strike so close to the american election could do irreparable damage to the us-israel relationship and he tells us you can't drag a partner into war. This is a fatal blow to netanyahu's plans to have some kind of strike and it creates a rift between netanyahu and barack that exists today where the two men are bitter political enemies <music> and that's really as close as israel ever gotten to our knowledge of striking ron mm-hmm back. Sometimes a single moment can change everything like when filmmaker ken burns for his father. Cry who's after my mom died at this one film had given my dad permission to express real emotional when falcon a hedge fund analyst decided to tackle the impossible the i._r._s. acid cdot mission statement. I filled out free world class education for anyone anywhere. I'm alicia burke host of that made all the difference. A new podcast from bank of america about the defining moments in the lives lives of achievers power to do hi. I'm sam system and i am the founding editor of cooking and i'm cutting in some money for some smothered pork chops. One of the great things about testing recipes ourselves is that we do a lot and home kitchen. Let's add a little flower aw to these islands which are cooking pretty nicely for cooking in the same kind of kitchen our users cooking and cooking is making it possible for people to to cook during the week to cook well and not to always fall back on a wednesday night bolas which is delicious by the way people can go home from an open up m._i._t. Cooking and find something great to eat and then put it on the table and share it with people they love. That's pretty great okay. I'm putting the pork chops into do the gravy and they're just sitting there like turtles. Maybe it's like the top of a turtle coming out of a swamp and we're just going to let that kach come see us at m._i._t. Cooking dot com start saving recipes and above all cook with us mark so give us your third finding from your reporting despite obama's adamant opposition to a military strike on iran he hands ends trump a highly refined war plan for just that and why would he do that. We'll remember we were talking about the growing concern in the early years of the obama administration that israel might do something might strike and might possibly draw the united states into a war and and that was one of the things that that lead obama to negotiate a diplomatic solution right well at the same time obama is ordering the pentagon to develop its own plans for different scenarios and one would be united states goes and strikes around on its own if it needed to another would be if israel strikes in the u._s. Gets drawn in well. What does the united states do <hes> and the pentagon is starting to run wargames of what might happen and if israel strikes and one of the things that they did was they built a mockup of the underground around in nuclear facility at fourtou while they built a mockup in the western desert of the united states and use that thirty thousand pound bunker busting bomb the one that israelis wanted but the u._s. refused to give to them <hes> to destroy the facility and they took video of the bombing and leon panetta. The defense secretary showed it to barack in his office at the pentagon john in other words look at what we can do so why don't you hold off. One of the things going on was that the united states had to convince the israelis please that they were serious about not letting iran get a nuclear weapon so in developing these plans they would sometimes brief the israelis not necessarily highly classified specifics but tell them we are doing this to show you that we are really serious so there's a kind of as one person we talked to said there was kind of a three way bluff going on the united states and israel in iran or all trying to let the other no it's capable capable of doing things none decided that they wanted to do yet but they had to convince the others but in order for the united states to have a credible bluff they we needed to actually do this war planning take actual hard measures of deploying ships to the persian gulf air defenses to allies other other aircraft that deployed around the middle east that they would need if the united states gets drawn into war they know iran is watching those deployments they know israel is watching watching those deployments so you kind of speak to each other in an entirely different language the language of the military so of course they never used this war plan obama goes the diplomacy route so by the time donald trump is elected these he's got an entirely different view about how to deal with iran and he's got a war plan at the pentagon that obama gave to him president-elect trump my friend so congratulations on being elected president of the united states of america. I'm confident that the two of us working closely together we'll bring the great alliance between our two countries to even greater heights okay so that brings us has to this current administration and its role in the story. What's your last finding here. Mark we discovered the scope of netanyahu's pressure campaign to get trump to leave the iran nuclear deal and what was the scope of that well so it's was well known of course that trump hated the deals. It's one of the dumbest deals i've ever seen. He said it a thousand times as a presidential candidate the deal with iran at the highest level of conflict and he as president was always talking about obama's terrible deal really stupid leaders stupidity but yet he stays in it for more within a year and that's because influential figures in his own cabinet were arguing not to leave the deal but to strengthen it. Don't get out of it. Enter netanyahu president president trump. Donald sarah and i are absolutely delighted to welcome you. We've known each other for many years and and it's always good to see he thinks that trump can be influenced. We understand each other and so much of the things that we wished to accomplish for both our countries now that is to be expected but then something interesting happens in the beginning of twenty eighteen netanyahu orders very risky ski raid in tehran were the mossad is sent in to steal from a warehouse the sort of secret archive of iran's nuclear program to take all of these documents videos thumb drives etc bring them back to israel and basically used that as greater leverage inch to get trump to get out of the netanyahu tells trump beforehand that we're gonna do this. Trump asks if it's risky but netanyahu says yes. It's risky but it's worth it. After the operation happens netanyahu comes to the white house and kind of lays out the findings of the archive and basically says look look iran has been lying about its nuclear program for twenty years. What makes you think they can be trusted now. Clearly they're cheating on the deal. Even though the american intelligence community unity was pretty firm and its findings that iran was not actually cheating but netanyahu continues to work on trump and basically by then trump is convinced he decides i'm not gonna continue these negotiations to strengthen the deal i want out and we found that there was even even a discussion of having a joint press conference wear netanyahu would reveal the existence of the archive and trump dump announced. He's getting out of the deal so this one two punch of netanyahu and trump together hardening american policy toward iran. That would be an extraordinary scene. It would have been an whatever the plans were. It didn't end up happening and netanyahu goes out on his own in late april two thousand eighteen to announce the the existence of the archive. I was actually in israel. I was in a cab listening to it tonight. We're going to show you something that the world has never seen before tonight. We are going to reveal new and conclusive proof of the secret nuclear weapons program that iran has been hiding for for years from the international community. He is in his full theatrical mode. Iran lied big big time talking about the iranian threat talking about how they can't be trusted and a few days time. President trump will make because decision on what to do with a nuclear deal. I'm sure he'll do the right thing for the peace of the world and i think for many people that that speech was seen as kind of an eleventh hour appeal to trump to get out of the deal but in fact we found out that it was already baked in trump was already going to get get out of the deal in part because he and netanyahu had discussed this so where does that leave us. We'll trump pulling out of the iran. Deal brings us back to the poker game and the three way bluff all all of this time. Trump is the new player at the table and there's a bet going on in the white house that it can be szekely cripple ron's economy so badly with sanctions that iran comes back to try to negotiate with in trump's mind would be far better deal for him in the united states then obama did the question for iran is can they wait trump out. Yes the sanctions are having a real impact but maybe in a little over year here. There's another american president and they don't have to worry about trump. The sanctions and american policy can totally shift for israel. There's a different calculation. They have have an american president who on one hand might countenance an israeli strike far more than either president bush or obama and even if if trump were to negotiate a deal netanyahu told us this time he'd have far more influence in other words israel this time around could have a far or greater influence on what the united states does with iran than they had under above and the stakes of this three way poker game couldn't be higher. You're in iran say they've shot down what they're calling a u._s. Spy drone in the south of the country so that shows how high the tensions are running how how dangerous the situation really is just last week. We uncovered thefts by his butler anyway in proxy to build a tear it at work in syria on the golan heights the u._s. says iran was behind attacks onto oil tankers in the gulf of oman iran or intensifying president trump is taking a <hes> is that both countries will be running into a war that none of them really want you see israel striking all sorts of iranian-linked targets on and and elsewhere in iraq this attack taking place in camp ashraf in syria overnight israeli airstrikes hit dozens of iranian targets in northern syria israel netanyahu's clearly clearly indicating that he might push it even further and strike again into iran this week. Iran openly violated the nuclear nuclear deal. They're hoping that by violating the deal it will be able to blackmail the world into making concessions and reducing economic pressure on it. We should do the exact opposite. Now is the time to increase the pressure. Now is the time to stand. It's all a bluff until it's not that's right <music> mark. Thank you very much. Thank you on thursday night. Iran said it had stopped honoring the key provisions of the twenty fifteen nuclear deal in its latest act of defiance since the u._s. Abandoned the deal at the urging of israel as of now iran said it would stop limiting its nuclear research and development potentially allowing it to move closer to a nuclear a weapon back and a great dinner is more than fresh ingredients but that's a great place to start with blue apron. Seasonally inspired chef chef curated recipes. You're not just making dinner. You're making memories. Just choose your menu and received perfectly portioned ingredients right to your door and start cooking delicious delicious brag. Were the meals at home. Check out this week's menu and get sixty dollars off. When you visit blue apron dot com slash daily that's blue apron dot com slash. The the daily cures what else you need to nominate abortion parliament voted yesterday effectively to scupper <hes> negotiating power and to make it much more difficult for the government to get a deal on thursday british prime minister boris johnson officially called for new elections after parliament passed a law blocking his plan to leave the european union by october thirty i without a negotiated deal. So what i want to do now is to really give the country a choice. We either go forward with our plan to get a deal. Take the country type of the thirty first which began on or else somebody else should be allowed to see if they can keep us in beyond timothy eddie. I am i have to tell you. I think that would be the right way. Forward after a series of embarrassing defeats johnson now sees an election as the only way to create great majority for his conservative party in parliament and secure a mandate for pulling britain out of the e._u. With or without a deal if people people really think that this country should stay in the e._u. Beyond october first and that really should be a matter for the people of this country decide. The daily is made. I feel welcome. Andy mills lisa tobin wage jeff lindsay garrison any brown claire tennis scatter page cowed michael simon johnson brad fischer larussa anderson wendy andy door chris would jessica chung alexandra leon jonathan wolf lisa chow eric kripke mark george luke luke vander blue a diese egan kelly prime julia longoria sindhu neon someone jasmine aguilera m j davis lynn lynn and dan powell our theme music is by jim bromberg and ben landsberg of wunderle special. Thanks to sandal michaela bouchard julius simon stella tan and david crackles tomorrow you can hear it the next episode of sixteen nineteen with nicole hannah jones here on on the daily or also releasing sixteen nineteen as a standalone series with a new episode publishing today. 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iran iran israel barack Netanyahu netanyahu netanyahu united states donald trump president obama administration benjamin netanyahu new york times israel dan shapiro mark mazzetti israel netanyahu michael bavaro
On GPS: Britain's Brexit Bedlam & Israel's shadow war with Iran

Fareed Zakaria GPS

39:58 min | 1 year ago

On GPS: Britain's Brexit Bedlam & Israel's shadow war with Iran

"This is GPS the global public square welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. I'm for it sakaria. We'll start today's show in britain which seems to have had thought highwater mark of exit bedlam ditch. I'll try to make sense of it. All with a terrific panel. Then israel versus iran remarkable new reporting shows the shadow war between the two countries is now bursting into the oakland but it gets worse is another middle east war on the horizon investigative reporter ronan bergen also jim mattis had a forty four year career in the marine fourth and then took the pentagon stop job as donald trump's first secretary of defense but he quit less than two years later general mattis on duty honor and loyalty but first here's my take britain's conservative party is arguably the most successful political party of the modern age the tories as they're also known have ruled britain for nearly sixty of the ninety years since nineteen nineteen twenty nine the country's first election with universal adult suffrage but this week we watched the beginning of the end of the conservative party at least as we have known senate in the post world war two where the tories were defined by an advocacy of free markets and traditional values a combination that was brought to its climax ax in the person of margaret thatcher the tories most effective prime minister since winston churchill. This free market orientation made sense. The second half of the twentieth century was dominated by one big issue. The clash between communism and capitalism throughout the world parties align themselves on a left-right spectrum the related to that central issue the role of the state in economics in america in the nineteen fifties and sixties for example. The democrats included northern progressives. It's and southern segregationists but they all agreed on the need for an interventionist state. We are now living in a new ideological era. One one defined by an open close divide between people comfortable in a world of greater openness and trade technology and migration and those who want more barriers protections restraints you can see the breakdown of the old order by looking back at britain's last five prime ministers to from the the labor party three from the tories. All were in favor of britain's staying in the european union including to resume originally by contrast boris boris johnson is remaking the tories into the party of brexit and this week expel twenty-one conservative members of parliament including very senior figures who disagreed disagreed with the new party line of course not every situation falls neatly on the open close spectrum. Many of the leading brexit tears are staunch free marketeers and they insist they wanna global britain. It's odd however to be in favor of free trade and yet insists that britain crash out of the e. u. One of the world's world's largest free trade areas and britain's largest trading partner but more significant is the fact that whatever the views of the new tory leaders the public public that voted for brexit and would presumably support what would essentially be a new you tori brexit party largely embraced a closed ideology. They're suspicious of foreigners resentful of the new cosmopolitan britain they see in london in the countries of the big cities america of course has a similar constituency constituency while many of the republican leaders who support trump might well be free marketeers. His base is largely animated by the same suspicions and passions shins that motivated the brexit voters. The most likely future for the republican party is one that conforms with its voter's preferences for limits on trade raid and immigration and even greater hostility toward big technology companies in britain. This confusion on the other side of the aisle is well. The labor party has moved leftward and still contains elements that are skeptical about the european union over time labour will probably move more robustly in a pro europe direction and and with the liberal democrats tried to create a new open governing majority in america the democrats have to resolve similar differences mostly around trade an issue on which many many democrats are actually as protectionist as donald trump but what is happening now in britain is a telltale sign. One of the world's most enduring during political parties is cracking. It's yet another reminder that we are living in an age of political revolutions for more go to CNN dot com slash for read and read my washington post column this week and let's get started. Let's keep this discussion going. I have some of the smartest folks i know. On the subject of british politics politics george osborne was the chancellor of the exchequer he is now the editor of the evening standard. David miller band was britain's foreign secretary he's now the president and CEO of the international rescue committee and zanny minton beddoes is the editor of the economist zanny. Let me start with you. Is this all now proceeding. In a way that boris boris johnson wanted which is he's forcing an election between him colorful but popular and a very unpopular labor leader jeremy corbyn or been or has this all exploded in his face. I think there's a bit of both i think some of this was where he was trying to get to the lord's exploded in in his face and i think it became increasingly clear that he was not really serious about trying to get a deal with the european union something crushing out or something he had said a couple of months ago was a million to one chance <hes> but it became increasingly clear particularly over the past ten days that that was actually you know what he was planning to do. I think what he didn't bancorp unkown was when he announced that parliament would be prorogued to use the jargon but effectively suspended that a band of tory. MP's and ex-ministers administers now now become known as the rebel force <hes> what determined to stop that and they worked rather effectively to pass legislation with the opposition that would essentially actually prevent britain from crashing out october thirty first and would force the prime minister to ask for an extension he then sacked them summarily and in so doing living showed that to be a tory nowadays you have to be in favor of crushing at the tory party's become the brexit party i think he underestimated the reaction within the rest of his party. <hes> of disquiet at at this extraordinary behavior and then the other surprise has been the discipline shown by jeremy corbyn the <hes> yes awful leader of the opposition at not nautica mmediately agreeing to an election and saying that they would not be an election until this legislation was on the books and essentially wanting to leave boris johnson dangling to force him to to be the prime minister who asked for an extension so you have this completely weird thing in british politics there are loads of weird things in british politics but right now you have a prime minister who has always said he didn't really want an election desperately to try and have it and a leader of the opposition who is desperate being desperate to have an election now trying to prevent one happening. This is the topsy turvy world that we live in a george george. How deep is the rift in the in the conservative party. Is it conceivable that boris johnson could face an internal rebellion large enough that it could unseat him. He will be unseated. Although he is a bit like one of those greek tragedies that he often quotes he is is cursed to got the job always wanted and now's a find it impossible to do the job because essentially an important section of the conservative served department has been fired by him now i think he will reverse that because he called govern without their support and i also think the big picture certainly the need for an audience around the world is the britain's about to have another general election. <hes> the timing is being disputed but essentially in october or november probably november britain will go to the polls because all political system is unable to deliver on what was perceived to be the instructions of the referendum a few years ago which is leave the european union without pain and since leaving the european union involves pain and no one's prepared to admit to that alter to compromise on that you essentially now have this this electoral contest between the undeliverable which is a pain free brexit and the unelectable which is this marxist leader of the labour party and so it's probably not gonna election that resolves the situation much to everyone's frustration here. David is the labor party going to be able to be resolutely the party that wants to stay in the european union will be able to present the public with that clear choice. I think that <hes> it's unlikely to be able to be wholly convincing them. Because obviously jeremy corbyn zone history in respect of the european union he voted against joining nine seventy five on fairly misbegotten grounds that it was a capitalist <hes> club but also he's acutely conscious. There are a number of labor voters who want want to leave and he's tone electorally that i think at the end of this week we know that brazil all strategic genius. We know that we're not gonna leave on thirty first of october and we also know that the next general election is completely unpredictable because on the one hand you've you've got a conservative party that will be united but divisive in the country the kicking out of churchill's grandson many of georgia's friends have i've been kicked out of the conservative party so it has become the brexit party and so the tactical voting people who wanna vote liberal in one place to defeat the tories won the labor or in other ways could defeat what will be the weight of the conservative message all right if you're all confused <hes> just stay with us going to sort it all out become <music> hi. I'm bill kristol feeling confused about politics. Who isn't that's why i host my podcast conversations. Che's with bill kristol. I have thoughtful conversations with leading figures in politics and public policy. We reflect on where we are. We consider where we're going. Our latest releases with foreign in policy expert eric edelman who discusses the dangerous world. We live in please subscribe today to conversations with bill kristol no spin no soundbites just thoughtful real real conversations. We are back talking about britain's brexit mess with david mill abandonment and beddoes and george osborne david david. If you were the leader of the labour party as many blairites devoutly wish you were. Would you agree to allowing an election. It seems this to me and you know. It doesn't make sense right now for corman to do so because if you believe the polls he loo. I think the line is very clear. There's got to be an election but it's got to be an election. That is cool. Once we know that sufficient time for new government to take its own approach to european policy shoehorning an election in before the third verse among tober or even giving ving the current prime minister the chance to change the date of the election which he is allowed to do <hes> on advice to the queen. I wouldn't be why so that's why i think georgiana zannier right to say we're looking at a november or december election. Although i don't want to register it's not completely inconceivable that actually the fear of an election dries is some tories and labour. MP's to revisit dare. I say it theresa may's deal when i was lost on this show six months ago. I boldly said yes. Her deal will get through. I was completely -pletely wrong but incredibly. It's not totally dead yet george if that happens if if david is right in the labor sticks out and says i yes you have to get an extension from the european union. Only then will we agreed to an election and you do have an election in november or or something like that. Does that landscape again does it. It looks good for boris johnson. <hes> because labor is unpopular. Could that change well on the one side boris. Johnson is a communicator unlike his predecessor. He actually got off to a good start as prime minister over the recent weeks <hes> but he's collided with the reality of a parliament. There's not prepared to leave the european union without a deal and he is going to be forced to break this central pledge edge which is he would not be prime minister and allow britain to stay in the the thirty first october. Did there's some rumors he might even resign as prime minister and contest the election from outside number ten being office when that happens but he he's got a clear message. He's a he's a he's a natural and charismatic politician but he's got a big problem and the problem is not so much the labor party which is mass and very unpopular leader. It's actually the other parties in british politics. The liberal democrats what's the sort of third force in british politics scottish nationis in scotland all of whom are expected to do pretty well against the conservatives and giving the consensus starting at zero arrive you go down against liberal democrats down against scottish nashes. You've gotta make that up against labor just to stay where you are fundamentally. I would argue as one of the few remaining x. Chancellor's allowed to be in the conservative party fight a couple of them earlier this week that if the conservative policy just becomes the brexit party she is david correctly describes. It is unelectable. We need to be the broad church. We need to win in middle class areas by the definition of middle wells professional areas of the south of england and here in the cities like leeds as well as in the former industrial towns and essentially that trade which is is trading the professional areas of the country for the more depressed and left behind areas is is not sustainable for the conservative buddy great to win both but you shouldn't trade one for the other and if we go into this election in the current situation there is quite a risk that the conservatives will be out of office zanny so does this look like looking at it from the outside. Is this turning into another kind of referendum. If you will on on populism of a kind where the conservative party is now moving more toward this you know what would in british politics would be the populist side which is get out of europe and labor ended up it ends up with some kind of pro european component. Is that the big. Is that the big divide in britain now. I think it's i wish it was that simple. I think it's a little bit more complicated than that because for people who are sort of open internationalised centrists the kind of opposite of populists if you will. There's really nowhere to go because the choice is between a conservative party. That's has become a brexit party and the labour party that is led by marxist and so there's the question is kind of how big will the shift to the center. How well will the lib dem's in particular do and the hope i think is that you end up with them. Either constraining kuban led government such that it can't do too much damage or if you have what's called a hung parliament and the tories of the biggest single party limiting what anything that can happen in terms of no deal so the the choice itself. It's a horrific joy search for the country because it's it is different though the choice between a prime minister corbyn why he become prime minister if he was unconstrained he would do unbelievable unbelievable damage to the UK. A hard brexit crashed out which seems to be what the tory party under boris johnson once would also do enormous damage so it's it's the rock and hard heartbreaking for many many people particularly remain towards but centrists that all stripes there is not a natural home in either of the two main parties. This will sound familiar to a lot of the people in america. David in the sense of people fear that bernie sanders gets the nomination you confronting the same drifts. Why is it not not possible for the left to be a kind of open. Ca cosmopolitan liberal free pro-trade party is is the is the dynamics on the left such that you have to move left. I think there's a simple reason and there's a more complex when the simple reason is that political parties are getting taken over by their extremes <hes> <hes> one of the conservative. MP's refers the talibanisation of the tory party. I wouldn't use that phrase myself doc given afghanistan's tragedy but you can you know what he means in the labor ponti. It's <hes> far left. There's no no doubt about it this taken over the commanding heights of the body the deeper questions though are about the extreme inequalities that exist in all scientism whether they can be addressed from the centre-left rather than from the extreme dream left and that's where people are my version of got work to do to come up with compelling ounces because from my point of view being anti-trade is you puts. It doesn't do anything for people in my former constituency. We've got to make sure that we have an inclusive form of growth. That actually does deliver for them. A many of my friends all of many of them have stuck with the labor party but they think is the only only vehicle to in the end can deliver however. They're acutely conscious. That boris johnson secret weapon at the moment is jeremy corbyn and that's the problem. If there is an election will you go and campaign for labour yeah and also campaign to make sure that i mean there was a one a labor. MP who left this week luciana berger excellent <music> <hes> MP. She was drummed out labone safer horrific reasons. I won't people her in parliament. As well. David miller band george osborne zanny minton beddoes pleasure pleasure to have you on thank you next on. GPS why have the people of hong kong been so passionate in their protests chinese as officials point the finger at an odd culprit. The liberal studies program in hong kong's highschools really explain when we come back in the cases. We gotta find who wrote this note we do that. We find the killer. This science defined out police is used luminol a chemical which glows when it comes into contact with the iron component in blood that drama but where was the rifle and which man was telling the truth for renwick files. The legendary true crime show is now a podcast. I join investigators they take on the toughest cases with cutting edge scientific tools subscribe now with apple podcasts with new episodes persona every monday and thursday. You'll never miss out on getting your forensic fixed now. What in the world segment massive pro-democracy protests have rocked hong kong for months and beijing says it has identified a surprising calculus for the unrest the school curriculum as the new york times notes chinese officials and some in hong kong point to a mandatory of course for hong kong's highschool students known as liberal studies. It's a trio program on everything from the government of hong kong to public health the climate change at the end of it students produce an independently research paper which is notable in a system that has for years tended toward rote-learning defenders of the program say it's created a generation of young people who think critically and act passionately critics well. They basically agree but they don't think that's such a good thing. As the new york times notes chinese government spokeswoman said that there is a problem with the national education of hong kong's youth this echoes older consents in two thousand fifteen. One former chinese officials said that the students in hong kong were being brainwashed but young people in hong kong told the times that the curriculum where teachers can talk to students so bad mass demonstrations the police the courts has helped them understand what is at stake in the protests. Why it's surprising that of course has been credited with such a massive movement. It's also the most natural thing in the world because a liberal education is in fact somewhat subversive to established authority that is is white illiberal governments around the world attack academic freedom and attempt to supplant it with propaganda dig the way education works on the chinese mainland mainly students they say they didn't learn the truths about black spots on china's history like TNN square or the cultural revolution rather they are given a patriotic arctic education along communist party lines from an early age or look even at india a democracy where intellectual life as long possessed a spirit of secular liberalism that is changing under prime minister narendra modi as alex straub wrote in the new york review of books modise body in several states aids has begun revising textbooks so that centuries of muslim life in india are all but erased and muslim rulers are vilified by contrast the new textbooks play up the glories of india's hindu past and the current government's good works. There is a more egregious example still turkey. After to the 2016 cooler temp the government of president air to one push liberal universities of thousands of academics several face criminal trial many lost their passports and couldn't work at universities again the push was widely seen as a thin pretense to clamp down on the free thought and expression that everyone perceives as a threat to his rule in america a liberal education is also under attack from those who think it doesn't teach trade skills like coding but but also from many on the right who accuse america's universities of brainwashing millennials with an ideology of politically correct liberalism the truth is properly taught a liberal education simply insures that people learn to think for themselves and have the ability and disposition to challenge authority pretty crucial ingredient of free society to see this inaction. Just look at the people of hong kong next. GPS my next guest says the shadow war between israel and iran is breaking out in the open. Why now and what does it mean for the security of the region. I'll talk to investigative reporter roman bergman when we come back remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com mm slash. CNN israeli investigative reporter ronen bergman has two big pieces in the new york times in recent days on the existential existential struggle between israel and iran. He was one of the reporters on a bomb. Showpiece published at the end of all this that made the case that the war between israel in iran which had been conducted mostly covertly is now coming out in the open with israel striking against threats from iran's allies in syria lebanon andy rock then this weekend's new york times magazine has another bergman bee's co-authored would mark mazzetti about what the reporters say is a long term effort of hawks wchs in both washington and jerusalem to push for strikes against iran fascinating stories. I wanted to talk about both of them. Ronin baldwin joins us from tel aviv aviv. Welcome run thank you for so one of the things you pointed out in in one of these species that right now is wealth rayle is becoming more and more overt an antagonistic <hes> an aggressive toward iran and you say that this is partly happening because bb netanyahu on yahoo <hes> is facing some domestic pressures at home as an upcoming election and wants to show that he's very tough in that israelis in an existential essential struggle with iran well the israeli elections coming september seventeen and if there is any consensus in israel the consensus is is that the israeli government israeli military the intelligence community should be taking a very tough stand and tough and strong strong and aggressive actions against iran and its proxies in the in the area. Look for it in the coming elections the same people who were either. There's by benjamin netanyahu or objected benjamin netanyahu when he wanted to strike the iranian nuclear facilities in two thousand and twelve are now <unk> struggling or competing against him. A victory lieberman ehud barak benny gowns who is the chief of staff mouche lawn. Who was the chief of stuff. All these people were there in two thousand twelve but now they're not taking denote bringing the issue of how to struggle with iran how to fight with iran into the political. Oh campaign one of their advisers told me said we're not bringing this issue in spite of this being the most important national security threat to israel. We are not attacking benjamin netanyahu because it's seen as a consensus in most of the voters in israel believed that benjamin netanyahu deals with that right we just we just don't want to help him on that and giving the morning munition to become to be outspoken as the tough guy on this issue you point out in the peace with deterring the history and extraordinary ordinary story where basically it really in many ways starts with netanyahu and israeli hawks who than keep pressuring and pressing seeing the american government to attack iran and it's an extraordinary story of almost a fifteen year campaign yeah it's it's a story of fifteen years where much of the US foreign policy against iran a what to do with iran is dictated as evolving from the secret part of the israeli american relations <hes> and you pointed out that the prime minister netanyahu and then his defense minister ariel barak had been telling the americans for very long time since two thousand nine until at least two thousand and fell the day consider seriously the day will bomb iran might with something that will might might think nine the whole area the whole region into into war in july lied two thousand and twelve american intelligence picked up sensing a all sorts of aerial maneuvers by israeli and they were convinced that that israel is going to strike and that led according to our conversation with many sources that was one of the main reasons that led the americans to start the secret negotiation with iran behind israel back without telling the american the the israelis in muscat in oman which led to the JCP if there is true then the pressure that prime minister netanyahu exercise in america led to the exact opposite result led into the instead of of convincing americans strike iran. It led the americans to sign a deal that prime minister netanyahu objected so much in the interview. He has given us just two weeks ago he would say he was very very proud to say that he was one of the key factors to convince president trump to cancel that the deal just after he was elected. Can you think that now prime minister netanyahu thinks that there is a path for actual military action against iran either <hes> by israel or the united states. I asked prime minister netanyahu in his office on twelve. I said you know president. Trump trump seemed to be considering opening and negotiation with with with iran now so you might end up with the same sort of baddiel as you had with the president obama and he said no no he <hes> he pointed out to his great influence on the american president and said if president then trump start negotiations with iran this time we will have a much much much greater influence on the on the president <hes> the the american president resident has given at least a quiet green light to many israeli military operation in the area especially in syria and while being very acted to do it himself. It seems that he might please quietly. Endorsed an israeli strike on iran that would solve also the american the american difficult this issue but of course such a strike could potentially start war in the region bergman pleasure to have you thank you thank you for it. Thanks so much up next president trump's first and longest tenured defense secretary jim matters. We'll be back hi everyone poppy harlow here. I'm excited to share some inspiring interviews coming up on boss files this week's guest dick parsons having steadied time warner as ceo after its merger with AOL and riding the ship as former chairman of citigroup during the financial crisis assist parsons is facing perhaps his biggest challenge yet as he battles cancer what his story career has taught him especially the importance of having a sense of humor. I hope you'll check out our interviews and subscribe the boss files today for more than four decades jim mattis rose through the ranks of the united states marine corps he retired in twenty thirteen after serving serving as the commander of the us central command but then he heeded the call to serve again on inauguration day twenty seventeen he was sworn in as president trump's. I secretary of defense. He resigned that post less than two years later. Telling the president in a statement you have the right to have a secretary of defense whose views <hes> better aligned with yours madison's the co author of a new book about his military service call sign chaos general mattis atas pleasure to have you on. It's good to see for so i let me ask you <hes> and it's a way of introducing you to our viewers. Why do people call you mad dog mattis. This is a let me tell you my version of what i've heard it comes from the fact that you have a saying which is be polite right be professional but have a plan to kill everyone you meet <hes> that was <hes> a saying that needed to be imparted the young marines they come from a country country where by and large we trust each other on the street we get along with each other in terms of traffic and this sort of and now i was putting them into a situation which which was filled with treachery it was the sunni triangle was two thousand four alan bean. I'm a lot of casualties but i think it was a slow news day because mike call sign has always been chaos given me by my rather irreverent troops on my dad. I know you don't want to talk about current. US foreign in policy as being conducted by the administration and i've watched lots of people try to get you to talk about it and admire. You're disciplined in saying no i. I don't think i'm going to break it so let me ask you a justice. Let me pick your brain on the substantive challenges. We face as you look at the world. Would you think is the principal security threat at the united states faces well for i would break it into external and internal externally <hes> when i came in we did not have a strategy energy. We had to do something to address eight years in a strategy free environment and so we wrote one up that said we're we're going to have to deal with the russia as it is not the russia or the putin that we want to recognize that china that we had i thought for many years as economically liberalized that they would become more a player in the international community playing by the rules and there are <hes> streak at home we would moderate over the time that has not happened and we've seen in the south china sea the results with russia. We've seen in the crimea. What did you do worry about more because as a student of history you know the two very different challenges russia's declining power and the austro-hungarian. I'm gary empire. You start a war. One china is a rising power which is more and more familiar pattern but both can cause you trouble well they can and i oh i think you defined russia correctly and to me a declining power actually becomes perhaps even more dangerous in the short term as they realize they're. They're probably not going to be stronger tomorrow so we're going to have to stay close to our allies. Nato is first among equals as far as our alliances and we're going to have have to make certain that the democracy stick together and say this is what we stand for no further russia the you've gone sported you can go you need to stop mucking around in and other people's elections and this sort of thing china has the will to be to be a much bigger threat however when people talk about about the facilities trap that a rising power always with a power this trying to stay on top. There's going to be a conflict <hes>. It was a very smart man. If he wrote that book in the nuclear age he would've been writing a different book. I think what we looked for in the national defense and strategy was that we had to come up with the way for us to ensure our diplomats were always speaking from position of strength and that is designed to come come to great power pece not great power war and that was our goal. You also talked recently about something which struck me. Which was you really worry about. Pakistan with nuclear weapons explain why i could sum it up in one sentence that was given to me by pakistani general and and that was the increasing radicalization of the pakistan society i think though as we back away and look at this nuclear problem more broadly more strategically globally the united states needs to get back into a leadership role in terms of nuclear non-proliferation and arms arms control. I recognized in this world. We're going to have to ensure we keep a safe and secure and credible nuclear deterrent <hes> but at the same aim time the other half of that equation for security is a much increased effort on arms control and stop the proliferation of these weapons and it got to be one that we do internationally and concert with other nations you sit something in your book that i want to ask you elaborate on. You said that if you have an odd read if a person in leadership has not read hundreds of books that person is functionally illiterate explain why life is too short the leadership roles were too short sometimes as short as two three five years of a corporation of a country political system military unit life suggest to short to learn everything. You need to know based on your own experience. You're going to have to sharpen yourself and many of the best ideas. I've gotten were recovered from old books. <hes> those were great new ideas. I thought when i employed them but they were all out of books so i'm not here to try to say there's there's only one way to lead. Everyone got the lead in their own way but i would say you have to have a curiosity about life. You have to have a thirst for learning you have to be committed dear own development if you're going to be a leader and this is true i think in any <hes> competitive walk of life. It's about football coaches and football players. It's true about business leaders. It certainly crew about political and military leaders well. It's terrific ridden book so i think a lot of people will learn in a law from it pleasure to have you on. Thank you and we will be right back. Hey howard beck and i've got meta. World peace on bleacher reports the full forty eight. I was on the verge of being a a definite hall of fame and now i gotta i gotta make a big argument for that which i probably will be just my deepest and hope for you so check out the full forty eight now on the bleacher report app or subscribe at apple podcasts this weekend citizens of one major metropolis of voting to fill their city council but in the weeks leading up to the election there were large large-scale protests accompanied by large scale crackdown. It brings me to my question. Where in the world are these local. Elections and associated protests is it is stunned bull hong kong how vanna all moscow stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. My book of the week is the last of in my beach reads from the summer. The song of achilles by madeline miller so wonderfully written retelling of the elliott with the central focus on the passionate relationship should between achilles and patrols. It's an extraordinary achievement all the most because it is miller's first novel the answer to my GPS challenge. This week is d moscow. After nearly twenty independent or opposition candidates were barred from running in the city council elections in july the russian capital it has faced wave after wave of protests demonstrators came up even after their activities were banned and the crackdown was so extensive the one point one thousand three hundred people were arrested in a single so why did these relatively insignificant elections caused such a strong official response the local elections taking place today are seen by some as a test case for the twenty twenty one parliamentary entry elections which president vladimir putin needs to win in order to keep his long-standing grip on power but if current polls are any indication support board for president putin's party may be slipping even if the president himself has high approval ratings. These protests are russia's biggest since the pro democracy accuracy movement in two thousand eleven. You may remember that yo- putin's own citizens came out by the tens of thousands to protest alleged election fraud after watching the western approved arab spring takedown dictator after dictator when the then secretary of state hillary clinton weighed into support those this demonstrate vladimir putin began warning that russia must defend against foreign interference turn to twenty sixteen when putin exacted acted his revenge on hillary by that is right interfering in america's presidential election so remember what starts out on the streets of moscow might end end up in the polling booths of ohio. Thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week i was next.

prime minister britain conservative party boris boris johnson iran america european union george osborne david david united states tories president israel tory party hong kong benjamin netanyahu secretary jeremy corbyn president putin republican party
1975 - MR News & Thanksgiving w/ "Cindy Hyde-Smith"

The Majority Report with Sam Seder

1:08:09 hr | 2 years ago

1975 - MR News & Thanksgiving w/ "Cindy Hyde-Smith"

"You are listening to a free Berge of majority report with Sam cedar to support this show and get another fifty minutes daily program. Goodridge already dot S M, please. Rob. It is Wednesday. November twenty first two thousand eighteen my name is Sam cedar. This is the five time award winning majority report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravage Guana canal in the heartland of America. Downtown Brooklyn USA. On the program today. New York Times reveals Donald Trump wanted to prosecute Komi and Clinton as recently as the spring of two thousand eighteen. Mile. I've grown a lot since then. It's all changed much mature. Meanwhile, Trump wants to pardon Mohammad bin Salman. And his acting DOJ Matt Whitaker up until. Last year was living off of the conservative dole. Who was paying? We may never know. Trump administration allows Kentucky to add work requirements to Medicaid a gain. And don't eat romaine lettuce. Unless you're libertarian. And don't believe in the FDA. Meanwhile, Nancy Pelosi run circles around Seth Moulton and will retain leadership. Migra family separation caused eighty million add that to the. Tens upon tens of millions for our military going down to the border in America is being made great again a buckle up, folks. It's starting to look like the Trump recession is forming. Meanwhile, progressives are seeking committee power in congress as so they should. And lastly, we're -ticipant adding the potential. For a special guest today. We will also get your calls early. It could very well. Be a. Freebie Wednesday today, folks. All this and more on today's program. I'm not gonna lie lays gentleman. I am not feeling. Well. Today was one of those mornings where in retrospect you wake up, and you're like what were we thinking? Why didn't we do a pre-tape today? There's no one. I mean, I have a feeling. And didn't matter both looking at me like we had that thought we had that thought well in advance. Well, no one articulated it to me. I'll just tell you that right now. But people are. But I in sensitive to the fact that people are driving. Two places today and tomorrow for thanksgiving. Maybe you're getting on a plane. I I hope for your sake. You're not. Pain in the. Paying the arse on a day like today. But we thought that you would enjoy a little bit of of politics and entertainment today on your ride home. That's the theory. We will we will be there will be no live show tomorrow. And on Friday, we will have a prerecorded interview. But we will be up on YouTube live, we have a or in real time. I guess YouTube premiere so the live chat is going to be there for everybody they go. So he's about and meanwhile, hopefully, I will feel better by then. Going to get into some of the stuff the show. But before we do two thousand eighteen as you know has been a difficult year for human rights, but have you ever wondered how rights abuses are documented around the world? You probably have with the sheer volume of global crisis. We're seeing from civilian casualties in Syria to ethnic cleansing and Miramar to the caging of children on US borders. It's critical. We expose the truth in order to defend the rights of all bring those responsible to Justice. Well, if you've been listening to this program for any period of time really going back to when I was on. AM talk radio. He will know that Human Rights Watch does just that they are an independent nonprofit organization known for their accurate fact-finding impartial reporting in targeted advocacy. They often do so in partnership with local activists and human rights groups, they accept no money from any government. But rely on the support of informed dedicated people, just like you. Matt you had mentioned to me yet. Was he yesterday about Human Rights Watch report? Yeah. Human Rights, Watch did some work on Airbnb point out of parts of Israel because of their anti-palestinian or no Palestinian options. I mean, they're all over the place and covering all this stuff. That's hugely important. And nobody else will do it frankly. So if human rights are important to you, visit HR w dot org slash majority to make a donation and support. It's vital work around the world. When you do not only is your gift a tax deduction, it will be matched dollar for dollar until twenty nine thousand nine. That means your donation. We'll go twice as far to advance Justice, and defend the basic dignity of people who need it. Most. Again, that's HR w dot org slash majority. I almost want to. You know, every now, and then I get that idea of like what if I had the ability to actually I I will did any power other than occasionally getting people to work on the show to show up here in the office. I do I do mean occasionally. Sally, Matt I mean, Michael and Jamie. I have no idea where they're. But I think one of the things that I would do if I if I ever achieved a a. Dictatorial power in this country. It would be to suggest that. If you have any type of television program. You you really aren't allowed to have political guests on and allow them to say things about politics unless you're going to be critically. You're going to critically think about them, right? It's one thing to say like, oh, we're going to have you know. We're going to have Newt Gingrich on to find out. What makes this guy tick? I don't know that I would watch that. I already know the answer it is he's running gripped, but that's much better than allowing him to actually run the gripped. Stephen call bear had on last night. Nebraska, Senator Ben Sasse who is. You know, a bit of Opposers, I think is the way to put it. Right. I mean, he's of. And look if you wanna have Ben Sasse on and ask them, you know, I don't particularly like it. When when people are, you know, politicians humanized that much, but I understand. Okay, fine. You know, some people say should not be humanized like Dick Cheney, you should not humanize him in any way. I don't even care if it's like a depiction of him as a bad human. I think you just you should should not humanize him. But when Ben Sasse gets on and starts espousing political ideology. And you you leave an unquestioned, and it I mean, it's it's annoying. And it's it's it's detrimental long-term. Here's Ben Sasse on Stephen Colbert show. Doubt. How would we find out if she did that we should know all that we can own it for one second? This is Ben Sasse giving a very specific answer. On. Vodka Trump's emails now, do I think Trump's emails or big deal? No. We always have a problem with like the way that we organize this stuff. And you know, clearly, it was big enough for essentially the entire establishment media to make a narrative of it. And for the Republicans to do like literally like six investigations. About Hillary Clinton. But leaving that aside, here's bent Sasser refuses take a position on it. But seemingly reasonable doubt. How would we find out if she did that we should know all that we can know? Seriously, really, well, I don't know the particulars of this story job right out, the particulars of the story with a so it turns out the restaurant brand gauge government, and they're supposed to check and balance one another in the last two years. The check in the balance thing over there because it sounds like a lot of check. I think we lost the balance somewhere along the line. The converse doesn't work. Thing. That's something. That's something that we could ran the congress doesn't seem to be working. Well, how long have you actually been in the Senate now almost four years? What do you do? The problem is why why doesn't the congress function the way that I think the founders intended ause you for one second. This is very easy question for people to answer. Why has congress not functioned the way that it's supposed to in terms, and they're talking about you're talking about oversight of the executive branch. Now, the answer is quite easy. It is because the Republican party has controlled both those branches in the Republican party has over the past twenty twenty five years in addition to being ideologically problematic from my perspective. But functionally in terms of congress have been totally derelict, and they are a death cult and death cult don't really care about good government and accountability. Let's see what Ben Sasse thinks congress function the way that I think the founders intended. Yeah. So I mean, I think in two hundred and thirty years of US history. The congress is probably the second weakest moment. The founders didn't have a vision of the world where people wanted to be in politics, moved to DC and stay there forever. You're supposed to think the place where you're from is the most interesting place in the world. And we use the term historically public service because you go to Washington to serve for time. And you're supposed to go back home right now. Most people in Washington their biggest long-term thought is about their own incumbency. They don't ever leave that place. And so they don't want to do hard stuff. So there's not a lot of checking and balancing there's a lot of more kind of parliamentary instinct to defer to people in your own party. And the founders will be confused by that posit. You know, what the the founders would be confused by a lot of things. I mean, this is such a ridiculous argument. The there's something fundamentally wrong with politicians who want to continue to work in government. The bigger problems that people leave and then cash in frankly on their service, but the idea that the founders would be confused by this. You know, what else they'd be confused by how people actually get to Washington. They fly issue they fly big steel cans. What are you serious? What are all these black people doing to what is the point? He's trying to make about public servants. Like if you look at that. Actually, we call them public servants because you were supposed to do it for that long. That doesn't follow at all. No, he's supposed to do public service. It's supposed to be something different from being from having a job. The founding fathers. Absolutely. It'd be awfully shocked to frankly that what are their slaves doing? As in the Senate. What is this whole thing where you now popularly elected a Senator what that's insane. We were supposed to get some type of power for the land owners. That wouldn't be that confused by gerrymandered. No, they wouldn't be that confused by Jerry, Mandy, and what? Again, explained to me this thing where they're flying. We had anticipated the internet. We knew that would happen. But we thought everyone would Skype in we didn't think they would have the ability to fly. That's absurd. I'm so confused. This is just a dumb. This is just ridiculous and Ben Sasse. I'm sorry. It's consumer point to me that something that Ben Sasse is done that has been provided a check I mean, this guy so in touch with the essence of what the founders expected. He's like Jeff flake might kind of. He's not going to go all the way, but he'll give you a little taste, and I suppose bents acids is going to wrap up his career in two years and head back to Nebraska's that word to believe Ben Sasse is on his his retirement lap right now. But it's annoying to me because right after this all that called bear does is move onto the next thing. Ben Sasse is core. Here we have the five thirty. This is actually fairly useful the the Trump score. Oh, okay. All right. Well, I would imagine it is quite low right because he has been such a check. Doesn't look like he's pretty pretty on board without the checks are held the balancings been going. Oh, really, what's he doing there? He's he's he's almost ninety percent is a b plus Trumper. Ninety percent. In fact, he is a not less than a point away from his predicted score based upon how well Trump did his whole thing of like it's more parliamentary that people just subscribe to their own party. He has been there on just about everything. And the only thing he deserves. Yeah. Tariffs and healthcare. Which of course, he was. Unbelievable. Benz S. Yes. So much for Ben Sasse. All right. Well, let's get to the story about. Kashogi because of the C I A now. Has said that they have fairly significant evidence that. N B S was aware of this. Now, it also is the most obvious answer. That kashogi was I mean that mom had been Salman was involved in this. First let's start with. With Donald Trump. Being asked if he's leading NBS get away with murder. And here's Donald Trump's. Essentially his statement. I mean, they released another statement that was all about justifying this position. But this is the position are you letting the Saudis get away with murder, murdering a journalist this about America first. Paying us four hundred billion dollars, plus the purchase and invested gun thing. That's probably the biggest amount ever paid to the United States. Don't you believe there? See I didn't make a determination. Just like I said, I think it was very maybe he did. Maybe he did they did not make that assessment. The CIA has looked at it. They've studied it a lot. They have nothing definitive. Well, I mean the. A lot of people are asking. Why would it be? Why would Donald Trump? Be so hesitant to. To hold the Saudis responsible for this and particularly MB us and. The argument that it's about jobs and money is obviously bunk. I mean, people have debunked this all over the place. The the deal is closer to twenty eight billion dollars. And it goes. To Lockheed Martin in. They're creating less than a thousand jobs close so close it's so big. So big. What do you have twenty million billion? Yeah. I mean, the number keeps inflating like even this debunking was like every time he mentions one hundred ten billion dollar arms like today. It was like four hundred. It just keeps going up. You just pulled a number out. The. The more accurate answer as to what is motivating Donald Trump. I think possibly could be found in a may nineteenth two thousand eighteen piece in the New York Times by Mark mazzetti. Ronen Bergman and David Kirkpatrick headline Trump junior another aids meet with Gulf emissary, offering help to win election. Donald Trump junior. The president's eldest, son. Three months before the two thousand sixteen election. Was part of a small group gathered at Trump Tower, one of the people there was an Israeli specialist and social media manipulation. Another was an emissary for two wealthy Arab princes, one of whom those Arab princes with Muhammad. Ben Solomon, the third was. Eric prints from blackwater the emissary, George Nader. Said that the prince's who led Saudi Arabia in the UAE were eager to help his father win the election. They made some type of deal. The the Israeli social media guy ended up getting paid a couple of million dollars after the election. Nater was brought in multiple times into the campaign. Not the type of profile that you would have. If your offer of help was rejected. But the question becomes like. Is Donald Trump really the type of person to get help being elected? And then. Just be incredibly loyal, for instance. Let's say you were the first Senator. Who came out and supported Donald Trump? Would he be loyal to you, even even if you kill somebody? And your name was Jeff Sessions. I think the answer would probably be no. It's. I mean, I don't even think this is like a tit for tat type of situation the way that Trump is acting. He may have some deal. Donald Trump junior may have some deal. Kushner may have some deal. Or the Saudis may have information that. Would be dangerous for them to share with other people about Donald Trump or Donald Trump junior. Like, I mean, they they made a deal. It is unclear what that deal was. Donald Trump's loyalty is been proven time and time again to not necessarily be most super deep the most loyal. It's very strange. It's very strange what's going on here. Now, I will say that a lot of the players who are talked about in this piece. They've already talked to Muller or they have been talking to Mahler. So we will probably find find out. I have a feeling when Muller ends up bringing out his report if he does that it's going to be. Much wider in its range than we an -ticipant. There may be some elements about Russia. There may be more. I mean, the collusion stuff seems to be pretty much of a slam dunk at this point when you're trying to prosecute Komi. I mean, I would like to prosecute McCall me, but it would be more like under the. Cedar bylaws. What do you do if you are a completely craven? Republican media person. And the CIA has said that MB s was involved. The Turks have said that M B S was involved. Every expert on Saudi Arabia says it's almost inconceivable that a fifteen member hit squad would travel to an embassy. Chop up a journalist who's an American resident. And Bs would know about it. What do you do if you are that craven Republican talker? Well, you continue to craven and talk and. Here is Hugh Hugh Hewitt. Trying to come up with an explanation for how it is that the president the United States who's going on and saying like I needed to do it for the money. We get American needs. This incidentally, not only does American not need Saudi oil. We buy. I don't know what ten percent of our oil from Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia could raise the prices of oil internationally by by choking off a supply from OPEC. But. There's a report out today. That. See an insider business insider, Texas is about to create OPEC's worst nightmare. There's been so much drilling. That's been going on in this country over the past even under the Obama administration as well. There are new pipelines that are getting built all over Texas. And in Houston, the US oil capital shale executives are trying out different superlatives to describe what's coming soon. Nami they call it a flooding of biblical portions an onslaught of supplier phrases, they could tossed around. So in other words, Saudi Arabia couldn't be in a weaker position right now. If we are so worried about. American oil. I mean Americans access to oil than we should be nationalizing those pipelines and those oil refineries, but here's Hugh Hewitt to explain why Donald Trump is doing this. The CIA is concluded that and the S was behind this murder. This has been reporting this has been reported by our news outlet NBC news among a number of others, including the New York Times in the Washington coast. Why is Donald Trump brushing off and that's been by zone intelligence community? Why after I have to be cautious here because the CIA sometimes is wrong. It's it was was it's national intelligence estimate about Iran's weapons of mass destruction in two thousand and seven sometimes reporters, even great ones at my colleague at the Washington Post and NBC get fed information by the which is incomplete to advance a narrative by a particular constituency with. The press and attack the president there. There is often a whole my gosh. The agency often brass David Ignatius and the washer book, they often push out a narrative, but they want are you saying that all of them were by CIA at the at NBC. Watch with an ER. All the other networks do CT. I would defer to Shane to to talk about the team. Line with on my other intelligence from the Turks and from others, but go on gone. I again, Katie. Yeah. It's very possible. That kashogi was ordered murdered by NBS positive one second. So here's the first argument. You can't believe the CIA. Okay. But what about the Turks? Well, you can't believe the Turkestan the CIA. What about every other? It's s that's come from any other expert on this. Well, okay. It's possible. I've done enough. I've laid that that little patch of doubt. But wait a second. Let me move onto a different argument. I'm going to retreat to another argument, Katie if I could poured murdered by s very possible. At the president said today when he was going to the helicopter was to put into context that the Saudi Arabian relationship is very important. In the statement today, the very important second paragraph is about the real enemy in the Middle East, which is Iran, which has greatest state exporter of terrorism. The world and has murdered hundreds of Americans in conflict in Iraq Saudi Arabia matters test because they're in alliance with the UAE with Jordan, Egypt, Israel, and the United States and Bs is not Saudi Arabia. You've heard people like Lindsey Graham and other is tell the president he to invest it in the crown prince, but he is being very strategic. He's being very strategic in protecting Ambi s by also protecting Saudi Arabia because it's so it's so key to our relationship. You're is Sean Hannity doing the B team version of the same argument? This is they're doing both the. Fake, intellectual and just the blowhard version of this exact same talking point. Here's how Sean Hannity delivers that talking point at said, I I believe NBS did. No, I'm probably ordered the killing of this Jamal Khashoggi. Here's the problem. We had war war to we had to align. With a mass murderer by the name of Joseph Stalin to defeat Hitler. Right. We didn't like that alliance. Either right now, we have a historic moment where s Israel Egypt. Jordan, the emerets the Saudis are now perfectly aligned against Iranian hegemony and the threats of them getting a nuclear weapon with their radical ideology of wanting to destroy the world that America American Israel. All right. I think there should be as you. I agree with you about sanctions, I agree. They needs to be a punishment. But I also with the president we should not end this relationship. So. Apparently alienating Saudi Arabia is the functional equivalent of allowing the Nazis to continue to. Create a. Huge empire that threatens all of Europe. And frankly the entire world. The other thing. I mean, what's fascinating about this. If this was the reverse the Republicans were talking about how weak. The US government is now that we cannot at the very least just force 'em Bs out. We are so weak that the Saudis are now pulling us around by our tale. This frame. I think is is silly. But it certainly the one that the Republicans would use. And. I there's. I mean, I think the the the problem with this is self evident. I mean, if you basically say this. This coalition to fight the the Irani and threat. Is too big to fail them. What what can you prevent them from doing? What I mean? What where does this at it's just absurd, and it will have no implications on anything. Nobody. Nobody. No Republican voter cares about this. They don't care. They don't think that Iran equals Nazi Germany. Oh, no. They all do. That's why they won't care about the killing of this. Oh, the Washington Post columnist, but I feel like even they don't really care the actual voters. Don't care that much about Iran. No. I don't think they do not as much as the this is not this is like the flip side, right? This is. The iran. Demonization helps. Trump's position in this have not vice versa. Usually there doing stuff to demonize on this. They have to expend some of the demonization cachet to protect whatever it is. Don, Trump is so hell bent on protecting. It's a look forward to hughhewitt dedicate and the rest of his career to CIA watching. Yeah. Exactly. He's super skeptical of them. All right. Let's move to the other story about the leadership of the Democrats in the house. The coalition of sixteen letter signers has already fallen apart. God bless you has already fallen apart. Apparently, at least one guy Higgins from New York has decided he is going to rescind his signature on that letter. That is important because the the magic number was fifteen fifteen votes against Pelosi could be afforded as of now, it may be the Democrats picked up a house seat in Utah. And in. I think it was California was the second one was two of them. The Mia loves seat. And then there was a second seat that the AP called or maybe the had called that one. Nevertheless, there's at least about fifteen votes that Nancy Pelosi can afford to let people take based upon their. On their promise to their voters and all this is blown up and Seth Moulton face. Showing at the very least that Nancy Pelosi is pretty good at what she does when it comes to at the very least. Twisting arms and getting votes for what she wants and knowing when where and when she can get them Seth Moulton now has a Seth Moulton problem. He was holding a town hall and amesbury on the north Shaw. Up near the New Hampshire line, more or less where you would go. If it was a Sunday, and you need to do a pack run because the blue laws and Massachusetts, he will shoot across the board pick-up some booze. Come back paddy for football game. Let's say. Seth Moulton announcing his opposition to Nancy Pelosi. Apparently, he didn't check this out with his constituents. Washington. Get rid of everybody and field. Fly. You've got to still Terry. And apparently that constituent was onto something because he certainly didn't have the skill set. He was backing off the letter very quickly saying how he didn't write it. There were people there were other members in the dark hiding out who who were frayed that it was written. And then he goes on to compare Nancy Pelosi Tamargo Thatcher, which I think from an ideological standpoint is wrong and also from a historical standpoint what he discussed also wrong. And it didn't seem to do very well politically with his own constituents here he is. Someone told his. On the same difference. The foreign parliament. Terms. And. Not to be. Floor. Vote. Anyway. She went to the floor twisted arms. Hopes. Prime minister went on. And that's that's. That is the strangest first off what happened. Margaret Thatcher is our own party. She didn't have the votes amongst our own party. Nancy Pelosi clearly has the majority of Democrats in favor of her even prior to the opposition falling apart to the point where she's like almost orchestrated the opposition. Well, you need to hundred eighteen votes. She had the vast majority of democratic votes, even if she didn't get to to eighteen right Thatcher lost confidence her own party lost confident in her in. This instance, you're talking about maybe ten percent of the Democrats wanting to vote against her. So that analogy was wrong and just the analogy of like, and they got a new prime minister and everything was fine. Pretty dramatic change. Thatcher was hor- rugged fifth grade civics lesson really is. I'm gonna I'm gonna do something that hopefully, you won't pick up on. How condescending it is. As I tell you this story. My understanding is that year was booted because she wasn't pro Europe enough. Is that right? John Major typeset very possible. She wasn't moving into the twenty first century. All right. Let's play this. And then we'll we'll start taking some phone calls. Here. Let's take this. Let's take a phone. Call right now. You calling from a Hello. Hello. Hey, hey, yeah. I'd like to order twelve pairs of the cracker factory drawstring pants in the pullover. Top with the Jesus Christ Appliquee in all the colors. I'd like him in -til bone may not blue okra all all I'm treating myself treat myself for doing so well into in the debate last night. Listen, do you need my Welty card number. I think. Who is this? This is Cindy had math. My number is two two four nine. My code word is white makes right TV. See wait a second. Cindy, Hyde Smith the. The running. From Mississippi SIS PBR. Treat myself. I'd like to order the cracker factory drawstring pants with the with the overtop with Appliquee. Well, no it is. No. This is not give you see. But I'm glad you called in this. This is my name is Sam cedar joke is some kind of a joke. QBC? No, this is not QVC. I keep telling you my name is Sam cedar. And we actually I mean, coincidentally we were talking about politics. So I'm glad to have. Ever whatever your name is. I don't know what's going on trying to order the, you know, do you know who this? This is listen to me, listen to try to order twelve pairs of the drawstring pants and overtop from cracker factory. I don't have any Quaker factory pants but lacking. You sound like what are you on the east coast you liberal what's going on here? Well, I'm east coast. Yes. Yes. I'm above the left as it were. But it's interesting. We were just talking about your debate. Or just about to talk about your debate. Tell you what I put ziplock bag over my own head. So I could not see north Hugh myself and the silent debate. But I'm pretty sure I one that's why I'm ordering all the drawstring pants as an early to treat myself. Well, holidays, my guess be didn't know whether he was coming or going after that would well it turns out we actually have some some some clips from last night from the debate. Now, my understanding is. Bag over my head. Nobody's supposed to hear it. Well, we we have a couple of clips here. Let's do do you mind. If we play them and ask you about. I'm not gonna listen I'm going on. I oughta one awesome wanted to order. The luxury rope. Because we have Christmas hanging the luxury run. I don't even know what that product. My husband cattleman, Mike, and I like to have hangings we're having thanksgiving with our Pyo is coming and Ray Moore's coming. He loves the car of the Turkey, and we're also been a flawed or some cattle, but we're not gonna eat them. Okay. Why aren't you going to eat you play your clips or whatever? Listen to me Judah. I don't know what y'all are doing over there. But I'm gonna keep making a list of some things I need from the QVC. So you play whatever you need to play. Let's play this. I which one should we play. I matt. Yeah. This is from the debate. Here is a clip now. Of myself, and my Mr. SP. Yes, exactly. And this is this is how did you get? How did you get any anything from that debate? That was a silent like a silent auction. Well, I understand. I'm not even sure how we got it. We get clipped to this debate. Matt C span O C span. Yeah. And here is and this is where she looks down at her. Which one is this. Okay. I'm talking about. I'm sorry. Okay. Well, let's where she addresses the public. Yeah. This is where you address the the the comment that you made about the public hanging here. It is. John posit. I'm sorry who had lost their parents tragically at the hands of black people. We excuse me. What? No, I here. Let's just play your your apology, then you can respond to it. How's that explain and apologise tonight at a campaign event? I had the opportunity visit with the supporter who has a big piece of my heart. See his mother and dad both died when he had a cancer when he was in high school. So it's so to express my deep regard in my sincere commitment that they showed man I used the phrase I told him that. I would fight a circle song for him while obviously I would not stick my arm in a circle song, nor did any of my comments ever, Maine that I would enjoy any type of capital punishment sitting there witnessing this. You know for anyone that was offended for my by. My comments. I certainly apologize. There was no ill will no intent what's so ever in my statements in nearly twenty years of service been your state Senator your Commissioner of agriculture and your US Senator I have worked with all mississippians. It didn't matter their skin color tight their age or their income. That's my record. There is never been anything. Not one thing in my background to ever indicate. I had Wiltord anyone. I've never been to anyone. I've always tried to help everyone. Eight. Oh, twist note and weapon to the us. When I ordered the the quack affect re confederate flag land where everybody was all upset confederates. Like, let's not tell you what those same the south going gonna do again. But my dear friend. He's got a big piece of my heart a big piece of my heart. And I was just so tickled when we got a chance to talk. You heard phrases fam- freighters that's one spot in Meatball. I can't believe I hope things where if it's in the same. It's in the same western canon of popular phrases and things that got Gary has sick. Fury boat. What no way to him. You didn't refer to capital punishment you referred to a public hanging. And yeah. Public. It's a phrase Sam lack hashtag worth it. You know, whatever people say with and there's no ill. Will that is? So when I wear my confederate clothes, and when I do the reenactments eight dollars in good fun. My record shows that listen Sam we got enough problems out here in Mississippi. We you know, everybody's talking about the wildfires in California and crazy, California, LA La Land. But you know, we have your Mississippi. We got droughts we got we got storms. We have black people we have holes in the roads, we have all kinds of problems here. The last time the stores blew through here. The dining nonsense store, we have a lot of ninety nine cents stores. Stores nearby store. Got listened to me store got hit so hard. There was literally twenty two dollars worth of damage that how much damage was done at midnight or nonsense store dollars would be that. We have three things I think would. That twenty dollars worth of damage that was hit the one near my house. Don't even give you start on the Family Dollar store by the piggly-wiggly. 'cause I'll tell you how hard that was hit. But I'm not going to do that right now. Listen, I'm tired of being accused of things excuse me. I'm getting so upset my I got a frog in my throat. Now, you gotta go crazy. 'cause I said I got a frog in my throat. I don't really have logged throat. It's just an expression. Okay. All right. So a lot e what is your name again hall? Sam. Not Rachel Sam that Sheba. No, not Bethsheba nothing from the well, I guess biblical. Other people in their that. There is. Lamb laughing at you. Mad and Brendan are here. Voter suppression is not a good idea. I'm full of good ideas. Voter suppression is a fantastic idea. Now. Wait a second. Now came up with that. Or was that got here? I don't know. I don't know. He I don't know who who said it. But it's a fantastic idea. I'm having I'm having I'm having I'm having a bumper stickers. Suppress it. Hashtag suppress. All right. Well, Cindy, Hyde Smith hold on for one second. I wanna play this clip of some the Jackson free press. It is a. It is a tweet. I say watch I can't to twenty times Cindy Hyde. Smith look down at two large stacks of notes in front of her. Just the first two questions candidates weren't supposed to bring notes with them. But her campaign and. It's hard for the TV getting ready from order. Also, I'm giving out gifts and things like that. That's what I had. I had in front of me. Well, let's TV watch. Let us watch the video in people can decide for themselves house that I watch. Okay. Hold on for one. Second pause it, and we're just gonna play it. And we'll spin. Get down children. He storming our borders. Repeal ObamaCare thing that we will support shirty willing. Pre existence conditions pre existence condition care, which bed disaster for healthcare. Really American Combet supports that, you know, at campaigning banishment sitting there wouldn't sing this. You know for anyone that was offended for my by my comments, stop the apologized with. No, he'll will no intent what so ever. In my statement, you listen. I I have to say height Smith hold influence. Excuse me. On wheels meals on wheels. Sam I started program meals on wheels in my in my with my parish in Mississippi, and what we do is we bring with the homeless, and we ask them to pay for it it teaches them to support themselves now. Wait a second. All right. That is that seems to me to be ridiculous. But but I want to get back to that video. You clear clearly looking down at you know, that's not my name is Matt. No, you were reading them. It's on. Samuel. Do you ever what? Downlist thanks to do today. Things. I gotta do tomorrow. Remind myself, I would've had post. It's I didn't get a chance to go to the office the blast door. Why would you be reading though late in the middle of answering your question in a debate? If they weren't notes. Coming up. I spent a lot of place in there. I'm spitting plate. Sam. I got lost to do. It's called multi tasking. Task king. She's you were waiting. Let me I understand what multiple tasking is. But I just wanna be clear on this. You a reading notes about what you need to do to prepare for the holidays and simultaneously excuse me. And answering the question in this debate. That's what you were doing. That's you're still called balti- tasking. Okay. I can do more than one thing. Why you're making me getting so I'm getting so this is such classic. Classic liberal nonsense. I don't even know how you got the same numbers QVC. I mean, no what's happening. I think you you do not have a big piece of my heart. I'll tell you what you get you know, what I'll give you a piece of colon. That that. Wouldn't even spare. I wouldn't even give you peace of colon. And how you can get any malicious intent what I'm saying. Interpret anything about what I'm saying? And get is just talk about ridiculous pick y'all so long to apologize. Because we have nothing to apologize for listen that dear my dear friends parents guide, and when he was in high school from black people giving them cancer. So that is what black people giving him cancer. How how did black people give his parents cancer? Do your homework. You'll figure it out. South going to do it. Again. Get down down children gather round, Catherine children get loud, south going to do to king. So. Get make my order now. Right. Yes. Sure. Okay. So you gotta order for the twelve the twelve the twelve Quaker factory twelve cracker factory pants. Yes. They make the best of have you seen a factory. Oh, and they have wonderful wonderful things. But anyway, so what are they saying you're doing over? Where are you? All right. We're we're in Brooklyn. This is not QBC. Boy, it's all happening in Brooklyn urban outfitters, Williamsburg, it's the best. We're not we're not near Williamsburg, and I have not been to an urban outfitters didn't probably twenty years, but we are in. Closer to Guan, and we're doing a political talk show from the left. We have to use the indigenous first nation tribe. Name we have to call it. The want us after the after the Indians who so cruelly tried to massacre the white people as they tried to build their homes and bring Jesus to the land that the Indians the red Indians red engines now how you're gonna miss turbot that what did she say? Now. Curren? Why folks to bring Jesus to land, right? All those things you said offensive. Do you know how big a piece of my heart in the red engine has? No, I don't. Heart. They've a big piece of your heart. But why would you pay a heart? No ill will how you could misinterpret and and imply any negative intent what I just said about the red engines massacre in the white people who were just trying to build a home and bring Jesus to the land next. You're going to say it was wrong to even smallpox infested blankets. That was that was a bad thing. It was about smallpox before Sam they'd never had it before Noah blankets. So you're welcome. Well, I don't think people want smallpox even for the first time. They never had it before have they now they know you get a chance to note. No, thank you. I did not want smallpox. Now. I know. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the blank think. That's a problem. Right. I mean, she I mean, they they it's it was deadly. I'll tell you what the problem is that I cannot tell my artisanal moonshine I'm trying to fill my kids moonshine. You know, what sounds like Brooklyn might be played? I get my artisanal moonshine won't talk to you. I won't talk to you. Is that your each all know my name is Sam what? So any height Smith? Excuse me. Shoshana. No Sam my name is Sam Sam Sam Sam Sam I wanna talk to you little bit later on about distribution of my artisanal small batch farm-to-table ethically. Butchered bespoke moonshine Brooklyn, I don't understand those things proceeds go to the confederate the confederacy Dow, Cindy heights. And to me, I listen, Cindy, hides hiccup Dhia, you'll you'll learn everything you need to know about me on hiccup -pedia. I I will do that. What do you think your chances are you're election? I believe is in about. Better than good bed and good. I'm going. I'm going to win. You know, what I say, I say gerrymander, Jerry, Jerry have you met gerrymander? No. Well, then my Jerry. A person. I mean, I believe if I'm not mistaken. He's he's helpful. He help them. And listen to me governor Phil Bryant knew when he put me in office that I was gonna do good job. And I'm a winner when I was involved with agriculture and commerce. Everybody knew was winter. Yes. I have a gap in my bottom teeth. But that is just I sit corncob touching there. Some people have made fun of that gap in my bottom teeth. Some people have said it looks like I'm on a mess. Well, yeah. Maybe I have a face like that. Maybe I look like I was born in butcher holler. And I was a coal miner's daughter. In fact, I was a coal miner's daughter. In fact, I mean, where are you a coal miner's daughter or no, yeah. And I got married. Well, fifteen hundred having babies fifteen then I was a country singer for while I was called the first lady country and true, then I had a brief a sabbatical. And then I got involved in politics, but I was born a coal miner's daughter. And then my first thing was do little and we had lived in butcher holler. And then we moved and then I had my babies, and then I started saying country. I learnt how to play guitar, and I was called the first lady a country, and then I stopped, and then I got into politics. My understanding is that you were a back in two thousand you were a member of the Mississippi Senate and you in twenty ten switched from being a democrat to a Republican. I was more of a Dixie credit Sam. But yeah. In the two thousand I I was I was I was country singer was the first lady country in the seventies and eighties. I had a great tour bus, and I was known for my wonderful wigs. I don't see how that's possible. What in the seventies? That was born coal miner's daughter. I don't think that's you. That's isn't that Loretta Lynn or. You're talking about. I don't I don't know who you're talking. You talked about fifty spicy. I dunno. You mean, but anyway Sanders actress. I know what you're talking about. You can look me up on hiccup etiam. You wanna learn about me? Okay. Dude. Again, gonna do it again. How many children did you say you had? Why has started had my babies when I was fifteen. I had four babies one after the other. I had how bunch of babies my understanding his daughter are was giving it who are you talking about my that's from my second marriage. My my daughter my daughter who is his who who is is is my pride and joy is a big piece of heart. Oh, my kids have a big piece of heart all of them. They have all my heart. I don't even have a heart Sam, I don't have a heart. I keep giving pieces of it away. I'm heartless. I mean, I give I find that hard to refute. Well, listen. Celebrate thanksgiving you sell that you he didn't you? What are you celebrating? What are you doing you going home for thanksgiving, you where you have it in Brooklyn? I'm going actually up to Massachusetts. Don't massachusetts. Oh, you'd have Worcester. Yes. That is me. I think I have heard it you've been on the MSN MSNBC. Yes. That's that's that's correct. I wear a suit sometimes well sport jacket. Yeah. Than others. Sometimes your phases fuller. Sometimes it's sitter that kind of thing. That's true. Yeah. Casually put on a couple of pounds. Then sometimes I take it off. And sometimes you take it off you yo-yo dieters. So am I that's why you gotta get close from Wacker factory. They have lasted waistband, and they go all the way up to fast three x x factor. I'd probably do did that all their lounged. Parents so much fun appliques. There's Jesus their Santa Claus. There's there's sheriff are Pyo all kinds of things. It's wonderful. You know, maybe this would be good for you since you are a politician. And you're a sitting Senator countries thing is to be the first lady country used to be the first lady of country. A listener of mine has put together a campaign ad stencil for me to run for the Senate in a primary in New York state. And I thought maybe you could listen to it and give us a sense on. Bob's burgers. My daughter loves Bob's burgers. Did you ever? There's somebody. Sometimes sounds like you on that. Bob's burgers. Not that. I'm worth. No. No, no. Yes. I'm not important. Here is a an ad that was done by Craig adult few. The youtuber fiesta. Yeah. And I I don't I don't. Fella. It's possible. I can't I can't read the the the name. But there it is. I mean, people can see it. And here's an ad. They put together that's places together. Some of the audio from the show with some images, and perhaps maybe you could give me your feedback on this. Sure. That's have to get with the program and understand the Democrats have to get with the program and understand the way the stuff works is take the power, and you use the power, even if it means you're going to lose the power congress. Right. We'll control things like commerce interstate commerce. And has responsibility for the general welfare. Not going to raise taxes on the bottom twenty percent, and it's absurd. Silly. It's dumb Medicare for all would go along way to make people's wives that much better. I went out actually when those two guys drink the other night. So that's the only thing. I try. So as people are ready for me. I'm ready for them. You know, this is the problem with politics. That it's all about this focus group driven. It's like what happened in the candidate? The campaign manager comes in and starts to corrupt the guy. I've been saying this for two years once you get the left is going to start a civil war in this country. The majority will impose will on the the rest of the country. This is the threat. This is a threat. Suscession threat. It's it's no it is a civil war threat. Right. We have two choices. One is. To embrace government. Or there's going to be violence. That's the choices that we have America. That's it. There's you point either you start letting states discriminate and create a race to the bottom. There's going to be violence. The only thing that you give you any type of hope all though, it's still incredibly disturbing. We're going to reduce. We're going to land on eight idea of government and be most appropriate size of government. That maintains the order of our that. I. Chuck stops you I'm Sam cedar. No, I have to say. Cindy, height Smith that the the. Those some of my words were edited out of context can ask say listen to me, I fell asleep mostly, but I didn't perk up a bit when I heard civil war and violence. I heard those words now here's the problem with that ad the music. Oh my God. You need to get like, maybe the Atlanta rhythm section or maybe the Charlie Daniels buying or maybe even both is Hank. Hank Williams junior both secrets get that music or Ted Nugent, something my goodness. It was o- other than that. I thought I sort of like some of the words I was hearing, but I mostly fell asleep. I'm just sorry. I'm sorry. That's what I would have to say. So you would see okay. Because because I am audience member made the video, and I just wanted to get you as a as a sitting US Senator in candidate for reelection. Perked up, but I mostly was asleep. But I perked up when I heard civil war violence threat. I like the sound of that. And I now don't everybody got polish? She likes us three words. Those words everybody likes those three words. That's why they're in the dictionary. If people like those words, I wouldn't be in the dictionary. Would they? Bashed like, a hoop skirt. That's not how the dictionary works. That's not how the dictionary works. Well. Yeah. Watch you tell me how dictionary worked sent well it works. Well, there's a committee that assesses whether a word is add to the lexicon enough to warrant it being included in the dictionary. Say what I say. I said people love the words, they're very popular. That's what existed in a bound volume. If people did a lot of words threat violence, civil war. They they go away. Yeah. They wouldn't be a book they'd be in a maybe a wax cylinder somewhere the Smithsonian between Archie bunkers chair these jackets something like that. That's not how it works. I don't I don't don't like. Mad? I don't have my Quaker factory close coming to me. This has been such a disappointing phone call. I mean know how this happened. How in the world your number and keep you see the same number only know how I'm saying. I'm sitting here talking to some fellow name name Leah or whatever the hell. Your name is. I don't even know understand. What's happened? You're in Brooklyn. Well, my phone almost dropped on the floor. All right. Well, listen, Cindy, Highsmith we've got to move into the fun half of the program. It's a real thrill fun have lucky lucky listeners, so fun so much fun. On. Well, we've we think it is. Thank you for having me on the go half. It. Well, what are you gonna do? I mean, I guess I guess that's it. Well, I guess thanks for nothing. I think you should apologise to me. And this point I'm waiting. I wanna wish you all day. I'll sit here all day. All right. Well, listen, I would like to issue. Good luck. But I, but I can't do that. I don't want you to win. Well, I just I frankly, I've. Sexist ages people against Nancy Pelosi sexist ages. You're sexist ages. That's your problems me is that I'm a woman who's a fifty nine years young. That's how I call. It. Fifty new fifty eight by the way, PM I got news for you. It's it's okay. Well, nothing nothing. Just continue yo yo diet and getting on on the TV. You do that. Why don't you? I will. Cindy, Hyde Smith has been a real pleasure. Talking to you. Okay. Well, you got a piece of my colon. I guess I'll leave you with that. I guess that's all the that's all I can say, well, we're gonna take quick break. And we'll be right back in the. On the phone app. We will. Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay. I don't know. Folks, just reminder, you can support this. We will take your calls and more in the front would just have to take a break. I've been drinking a lot of fluids. Take break head into the fun half. Wherein? We will take your calls. Maybe we'll hear from a nother special guest. You can support this program by becoming a member at joined the majority report dot com. Join majeure just a couple of bucks a week keeps the free show trucking along and his way of saying. Thank you. We give you extra content every day. Join the majority report dot com, don't forget checkout. TM BS you can do. So I tuned or on our YouTube channel, also or patriotic same the anti Fodda check it out patriot dot com slash the anti Fatah. Don't forget, folks. We are doing Michael's doing his live show in February. We are doing the majority report live January thirteenth. It's a Sunday. Two thirty PM. You can find a link to the tickets on our website at majority dot FM or just Google. Brooklyn pod fest majority report. Where where are we doing again at the bell house? So check that out. Also, Matt what's happening with? Yes. So you could say more and more people talking about Catharine Maria Sedgwick because about a thousand over thousands of people have downloaded my narrations for that. Which is probably more people than have read that book in a long long time just that in of itself. So check that out Catherine Maria such Rick, and we're gonna move onto some more interesting things or some not some different interesting things and the next couple of weeks. Okay, folks. Quick break fun half be right back. Folks. Six four sixty five thirty nine twenty she in the fun. That does this. Males.

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The If This Peace is Moroccan, You Better Come Knockin Edition

The Promised Podcast

1:29:00 hr | 2 months ago

The If This Peace is Moroccan, You Better Come Knockin Edition

"This is one. This episode may contain explicit language to the promise. Podcast brought to you on t. v. one the voice of the city that just offered temporary refuge to a six ton bronze statue of a crouching protester holding a flapping israeli flag erect while being blasted by a water cannon. The statue is called hero of israel. Because as its creator artist atti- zella eat says quote. A person who leaves the house everyday takes risks and gets beaten up guards. Their home and fights for democracy is no less than an israeli hero. End quote zella eat. I expected the statue undercover of night and without permits in jerusalem public square not far from the prime minister's house and not far from the event memorialized in bronze late one saturday night after an anti netanyahu demonstration when the police decided to enforce a curfew by pelting protesters with powerful and painful streams of water when jerusalem municipal workers came with police officers to take away the unprinted statue zella eat curled up on the base of it in a failed passive resistance. Hell no we won't go. Attempt to block the evacuation of the statue. Maybe you remember zella. Eat as the creator of the famous gold. Netanyahu statue that turned up in robbing square. Two years ago. Meant to present the prime minister as some sort of banana republic tyrant and producing a fabulous and unforgettable scene of the police toppling the netanyahu statute to remove it in a way that clearly recalled the toppling of every tyrant statue that you've ever seen toppled from stalin to to saddam hussein which video was replayed over and over on the news zella eat also created the last supper installation with a poor seen prime minister seated along a huge table filled to overflowing with food and wine and drink consuming a gargantuan cheesecake with his bare hands. It would be fair to say that he ties l. Eat works in the medium of anti bb after spring himself from the clinc where he landed for his statuary civil disobedience zella eat applied for a permit to put his statue near the fountain impera square in jerusalem at the site of the weekly saturday night protests. It's doubtful the permit will be granted at least not soon so in the meanwhile tel aviv. Afo mayor ron e rushed into the breach offering sanctuary for the statue in rabin square the most welcoming place in the country for a hero of israel who the who already announced he will run against netanyahu for the premiership in the upcoming election said that since israeli democracy quote is at one of its low points everything must be done to protect it and quote including one gathers offering political asylum to a statute cruelly persecuted in jerusalem for its politics and arguably nothing captures the spirit of this city. We love so well tel aviv volvo better than the cities multitudes that each day wander past six tonnes statue of a man and a flag bowed but unbend secure in the knowledge. That here in this town there is always room for art that stands up for democracy and if at the same time it manages to stick it to the man that my friend is all the better. And if the man is benjamin netanyahu brother that is best of all with us in the studio is a woman who's lovely prose is as invigorating as brisk blast of a water count and i speak of course of alison captain. Summer allison is written for political new republic foreign policy the jerusalem post the jt. Forward any other of your very best papers magazine. A columnist for arts you heard on npr pri in the bbc. And you've seen and i twenty four television and aljazeera tv. You can meet more of your kaplan. Some areas needs these days by listening to her host. The arts weekly podcast. Jose neighbor world center ward for journalism. Recognizing excellence in reportage and a salmon rocker award for excellence and covering zionism and israel. Alison how are you doing. Thank you thank you. It was indeed a very happy birthday. People don't know they don't know all the pressures that we live under. And i'm committed to that. I'm really sticking with that. Also with us in the it lv one capsule studio right through the wall behind my back is a man who for all he does to see that kids get educated and that justice spreads throughout the land and thousand ways is himself without hero of israel. I speak of course of vitamin who is the director of the mariah fund in israel and the director of the center for educational innovation. He is also the author of a new podcast of one man. Stage plays called fireman's one man. Show don how you doing I'm good. I'm going to join in the happy birthday greetings and remind you that each year you remain younger than me. You send your elders. I'm right behind you i'm up. I'm catching up. One day i will be older. And i don't mean to boast but all week i have been binging. The new season of big mouth on netflix. And it reminds me. How will i have. And it reminds me how when i was the age of the characters in the show a teacher gave me martin buber i and thou and i devoured it and then not long after that i was onto content marx and nietzsche and now decades later. I wait with pretty much. The same even to watch cartoon kids on netflix parts with tom. Moody precision the nature of masturbation. Menstruation with frequent. Digress into scatology. And i'm not bragging honesty because that's just not how i was raised but i am pretty sure that i am some sort of spiritual and intellectual benjamin button and being anyone played by brad pitt. That's pretty impressive right. I mean i really have used my adulthood well to make something of myself this week. We have three topics grand importance. But first we have a matter that we're following with alert interesting. Great concern as part of an occasional series. We call the promise. Podcast ponders the nature of new partners. Listen to this a Call own a in. The kingdom of bhutan adorned with cyprus trees protector who reigns over the realm of spiritual and secular traditions. He is the king of bhutan. The precious sovereign may being remain unchanging. And the kingdom prosper. The teachings of the enlightened one flourish made the son of peace and happiness shine overall people. That of course is the national anthem of bhutan. Drew sent in. It's called and it is on our lips. Because this week. Bhutan and israel establishing formal diplomatic relations unlike the united arab emirates bahrain the sudan and morocco which we'll talk about later in the show these new relations with the gentle lush landlocked eastern. Himalayan three-quarters buddhist one quarter hindu country of bhutan did not come about owing to the help. The united states rather our relations with bhutan develop organically over many years of gentle diplomatic scientific medical and mostly agricultural contacts and exchanges as israeli ambassador to india. Ruin malka explained. You won't fresh. You has been going on for many many years relations in this stage that we decided we start in formal relations. You russians now. All of this is all the more astonishing because bhutan has diplomatic relations with only fifty four countries. We are the fifty fifth this exclusivity being a choice like that friend that you had in high school who was so well adjusted and self confident that she didn't need to be friends with. She had her three friends real friends and that was enough for her. That is bhutan. And there is so much more to know and to love about putin and no doubt we'll be learning and learning to love its ways for generations to come but in honor of establishing diplomatic relations this week and as a public service the promise podcast offers these ten important facts about bhutan counting down fact number. Ten perot international bhutan. Only airport is set in a deep valley between mountains that are eighteen thousand feet or five thousand five hundred meters high. It's also nestled alongside river which conditions high altitude short runway strong and unpredictable. Winds in the mountains make it one of the most dangerous airports in the world. Pilots have to undergo special training to get certified to fly into the airport and as of two thousand eighteen. There were only seventeen people on earth who are certified to fly into perot international airport in bhutan number nine. The word bhutan means land of the thunder dragon. A reference to the fierce storms that frequently royal in from the himalayas fact number eight bhutan is one of only ten countries on earth that has never been conquered or occupied fact number seven. The highest mountain in bhutan is gung gar poon. Sam it stands twenty four thousand eight hundred and forty feet which is seven thousand. Five hundred and seventy one meters. It's also the highest mountain in the world. The summit of which has never been reached by human being. There were four failed attempts in one thousand nine hundred five and nineteen eighty-six though since nineteen hundred. Four brittany's law has prohibited climbing any mountain higher than twenty thousand feet or six thousand meters as these very tall mountains are held to be the sacred homes of protective deities and spirits better left undisturbed by rich people leaving behind. Spent oxygen canisters fact number six batons first television broadcast was in nineteen ninety nine making it the last country on earth to adopt the medium fact number five according to the bhutan road safety and transport authority or the b. r. s. t. a. And i recommend to anyone who hasn't yet to go to their website it's fabulous. Bhutan is one of just two countries in the world with no automated traffic signals. The other being north korea a single traffic light was put in at an intersection in the capital city of thumb pu in nineteen eighty but it was removed the following day in response to a flood of complaints and the police officer who had until then directed traffic was returned to work fact number. Four bhutan is the only country on earth in which smoking is entirely prohibited everywhere all the time fact number three bhutan constitution legislates that the environment must be protected at all sorts of ways for instance the constitution stipulates that at least sixty percent of all. Booties land must remain under the cover of forest. Plastic bags are completely forbidden. It is illegal to hunt and fish in bhutan. save for catch and release fishing fact number. Two bhutan measures the success of its public policy with a metric called gross national happiness or g. h which tallies nine areas psychological wellbeing health. How people use their time. Education cultural diversity. Good governance community vitality ecological diversity and resilience and standards of living. Since bhutan started using gross national happiness as a metric it has been adopted by dozens and dozens of cities and countries around the world and finally fact number one as one learns from a scholarly article in the highly respected journal of medical history. The shish the their earlobe lead or the history of urology in a fascinating article called follows star stellan gin in bhutan or fallas depiction in bhutan by scholar named and this is true. Kristoff bendik point of evidence by the way for those who believe that soar. Anomaly is destiny. But i digress. One learns from bendik that quote. The i'm the presence of the pictures of foul always erect and often ejaculated on many walls of traditional houses in bhutan is a stunning impression. The popularity of these displays goes back to the holy madman dork park conly from who lived from fourteen fifty five to fifteen twenty nine. Who made generous use of his penis. In fighting demons converting to buddhism and mocking the religious establishment although as there is a vast although there is a vast written and oral tradition on the religious and historical significance of the phallus symbol for most boot needs. Today it merely means a sign of good luck or an instrument toward off evil spirits and quote. I should add that one inch from a recent of the bhutan society newsletter. The official organ of the bhutan society of the united kingdom that quote any self respecting rural house in bhutan will feature an impressively long wooden phallus attached in the middle at right angles to a wooden dagger hung from each roof corner and quote. And i think that. I speak for all israelis when i say to our sisters and brothers of bhutan that we are just delighted to enter diplomatic relations today three topics topic one casa blanca dreaming as us president. Donald trump announces with a tweet that the kingdom of morocco and israel have agreed to full diplomatic relations a revelation that teams at once both less and more than recent normalization agreements with the united arab emirates. Bahrain and the sudan less because already for some years. Sixty thousand israelis a europe travelled to morocco. Where we've been warmly received and there have been all sorts of unofficial security and diplomatic ties between the countries but more because half a million israelis have roots in morocco and for some of them having official relations with the land of their birth or their parents or their grandparents. Maybe changes the whole way. They understand the middle east will try to figure out what this piece with. Morocco is and what isn't topic to netanyahu's man. In the islamic movement as knesset member menteur abbas the head of the party. The political wing of the southern islamic movement makes overtures to prime minister. Netanyahu suggesting that he'll support the prime minister in exchange for legislation and government programs that help his constituency threatening to break apart. The joint list of which rome is part and offering a controversial alternative model for palestinian israeli. Politics will wonder what it means and what it offers end topic. Three checking facts as for the first time in the history of israeli media a television station fact checks the prime minister in real time during a broadcast press conference adding bubbles to the screen comparing quote unquote what was said to quote unquote the facts. Lots of people applaud this newfound combativeness in the press. And we'll wonder. Is it really a good thing. And for our most unreasonably generous patriots supporters in our extra special special extra discussion the linked to which you can find in the show notes to this podcast or at patriotair dot com slash promised podcast as elections have come to seem evermore inevitable and some prominent kay's are scrambling to find places on lists running including needlessly. Don't sars won't pulled as and no doubt others. And as social media memes have started to mock these prominent ks scrambling to find places on lists running including newest. We'll wonder whether the knock on politicians who switch parties is really justified when your party goes down in flames says propriety dictate that you throw yourself onto the pyre but before we get to any of that and in honor of the new out in the open diplomatic relations with morocco. Oh listen to this Love meal the soda cetera reports sold a. That's is become by iago herash and ensemble sheer you. d do. Y'all harsh is a dimona born musician. Who over the past. Two years has put out to amazing records. One last year of traditional moroccan jewish music. And the other one just now. Most of the original team influenced deeply by traditional muslim music in honor of the peace with morocco and because he totally rocks will listen to him over the course of the show. And now it's time for our first discussion so allison. Is it true what used to be printed on all those stone t shirts if this piece is moroccan. You'd better come knocking. Can't wait for the t shirt so yes last week. Still president of the united states. I heard he's still president. Donald trump tweeted a historic breakthrough. Today are great friends. Israel in the kingdom of morocco have agreed to full diplomatic relations. A massive breakthrough for peace in the middle east once again. We have supposedly an agreement between two countries being announced by a third country. Which you have to admit is pretty weird He immediately like the same moment. Tweeted morocco recognized the united states. In seventeen seventy seven it is thus fitting that we recognize their sovereignty over the western sahara. as usual. he says the quiet part out loud a quid pro quo existed here now. Western sahara has been contested for fifty years since a group called the polisario front backed by algeria and libya began to fight for independence. I against franco's spain that held the territory and then eventually against morocco. Morocco has tried for years to advance what they call and atonomy plan for the western sahara while the rebels say that nothing short of independence will do just hour later prime minister netanyahu spoke at a hanukkah candle lighting ceremony at the western wall with us ambassador to israel david freedman and thanked president trump for quote his extraordinary to expand piece. Bring peace to israel and the peoples of the middle east for these magnificent efforts. Netanyahu said the people of israel quote will be forever indebted to you. The prime minister then thanked the king of morocco king. Mohammed the six for taking this historic decision to bring a historic peace between us. Netanyahu said quote. The people of morocco in the jewish people have had a warm relationship in the modern period. What's more he said. Quote hundreds of thousands of these moroccan jews came to israel and they form a human bridge between our two countries and our two peoples of sympathy respect fondness and love. I think that this is the foundation on which we can build this piece now. Netanyahu's right that. The people of morocco and the jewish people have had warm relations often. But not always. There's been loved there but it's been complicated in one thousand nine hundred forty eight in the war that followed israel's declaration of independence. Morocco formerly joined the war effort sending a small contingent of troops to fight against israel back at home in morocco. There were riots against jews. And the push of these and the pull of a jewish state in the holy land with the encouragement of the jewish agency led to hundreds of thousands of moroccan jews to move to israel over the following years after morocco gained independence from france and spain in nineteen fifty-six morocco's leaders beginning with sultan muhammed the v sporadically tried to stop jewish immigration and even encouraged jews. Who had left to return. Jewish emigration to israel was officially banned from nineteen fifty six nineteen sixty one. Although some jews did manage to move via france in nineteen sixty-one muhammed v son. Hassan the second became king after that relations with israel though still unofficial warmed up a great deal king. Hassan had a particularly good relationship with the most side who gave him tips about coup attempts and who in nineteen sixty five hussin helped infiltrate a meeting of the arab league. Ronen bergman described this week in the new york times however since there have been significant relations on the down low between morocco in israel in all sorts of matters of spying an arms trade relations went way way beyond that without king hassan the seconds intensive behind the scenes help peace negotiations would never have gotten started between sadat and begin in nineteen seventy seven. Now that can came. Close to officially recognizing israel in nineteen eighty. Six when shimon peres was prime minister since the oslo accords. Many many israelis have traveled to morocco. Now about sixty thousand a year some with foreign passports through third countries some of these special travel papers that morocco issues ad hoc especially when. You're on an organized group tour and of off the record after oslo. Morocco opened a liaison office in tel aviv. Although it closed a few years later with the start of the second intifada on the night after the new normalization of relations with morocco was announced in the mostly moroccan heritage town of eurocom which i just visited anonymous reveller systematically pasted over street posters and billboards with moroccan flags. There were dancing. This is from what people were telling me in your home. Dancing around signs of king muhammad benjamin netanyahu and donald trump a post on facebook had the hashtag the old and good middle east the day after that the city council hosted a celebration at which may or tallow hana. The granddaughter of immigrants from morocco said quote. This is an exciting day for us for years. We have dreamed of a peace agreement with morocco. More than half of our town are immigrants from morocco in their kin. We have always put our roots at the front of the stage and today we are more proud of them than ever. The town's rabbi talk show live praise the move saying quote. When you know any respect each other you can create a basis for peace at his founded on recognition love and acceptance of the other Yeah here last year. The mayor of ash showed another majority moroccan town posted on facebook that he immediately set out to expand sister city arrangements in his city to include casablanca where he was born and lived until he was six from jerusalem minister transportation mary regular whose father came from rocco said that generations of jews of morocco extraction dreamed of peace with the land. They were born in minister of economy. I mean your parents who was born in. Morocco tweeted that it is quote a shame that my father and mother blessed memory are not with us now to see this peace. Hake form all very exciting. Is it exciting though. Let's ask the question. What is this piece or normalization with morocco. Is it really so different than the normalizations with the emirates or bahrain in some significant way that matters or is it more of the same. I mean we've had warm informal relations for decades with morocco. There are even already passover programs hotels in morocco so is this formalizing of relation bills kosher ones still such a big deal. Well i think it is. And i think it's it's very different than the piece with The emirates and bahrain part because morocco is such a different kind of country. It's a country the big Diverse vibrant society. Not a small native population served by massive numbers of foreign workers. And where it is. It's in north africa You know and it's a bridge to europe and has historical connections france and I mean france only left morocco in nineteen fifty-six and as you mentioned we have a huge jewish historical connections but israel has already you know thriving trade with morocco of five billion dollars in exports sixty eight billion dollars and imports. According to some backer. I read which seems very high You know and we don't know what the arms trade is could be even more than that You know look the moroccan. Jewish community is the largest mizraki community in israel and morocco is the one country that miserotti community can easily and regularly go back to visits You know unlike the situation in yemen. Syria lebanon or libya. I don't know about algebra in tunisia But you know. Some moroccan jury is usually influential in israel as well so i think the possibility of having more than ties and and warm relations not just with government officials in the tourist industry but possibly the whole country simply something potentially a ground-breaking that might have impact morocco's off so influential At least in north africa and possibly throughout the arab world and i will say that despite being one hundred percent ashkenazi we have family ties to morocco. wife's grandfather fee slower was the personal physician to the sultan of Sultan mohammed The fifth i believe for many years we. Where did he go to medical school where what was his background. I realize this isn't the point and this is a very long story. This is going to be a very long digression if we get into it. Okay well tell me that. Like what was he. Trained in was a european. No no he was here he he was here. He was sent by the british to get medical training. abroad in europe because he was functioning as a doctor throughout the central region of the country even though he was trained as a pharmacist. I mean those were different times and they wanted him to get formal training and then he he answered a call by the sultan for someone to try to cure his daughter of a mystery illness and he did it. He succeeded in became the sultan's personal physician and he sent his son. Yeah he'll back to israel ship when he was six years old by himself with a sign around his neck saying. Please take this child to tactic to the slower family And and then he never saw his son. I mean he's or he he was in casablanca or he was there he lived there he. He was in morocco all those years and his son fuel was killed in lake. Sharim night of the bridges. He's one of the people memorialized on the main memorial in the puck museum and he arrived back in palestine the night before Sharim is is why feels mother saw him but he didn't get to see his son and then the next night he was killed. So it's a very tragic dramatic story in the family but but you know there's craziest oracle connection to morocco. Well see that that is unbelievably fascinating. And i want to hear all of the details sometime or learn them or read them or something. I think it's relevant in that to me. I am. I am so excited about this. This normalization this this not no longer on the down low normalization of relations at sort of existence with morocco. I don't remember being so excited about about something like this. Since sadat came to jerusalem. Frankly and the reason has something to do with what you were just describing. Because i think that morocco than any other place represents in a way a path at the middle east could have gone down. Did go down for a while and then ceased going down for the past seventy or eighty years. Could once again go down which is a a very different very different middle east in terms of muslim and jewish relations. Morocco's different than those other places. For all the reasons you said don absolutely. It's also different because it has this incredible jewish community now there that just let him large sausalito tens of thousands of people. I remember in the nineteen eighties. When i went to morocco for the first time i was shocked. First of all that you know i spent. I spent most of a year traveling around africa. On some grant studying jewish communities of norfolk north africa and suddenly in casablanca. There were five different kosher restaurants. I could choose from in the nineteen eighties just the local jewish community there and in magnus and in fez. They're all these cities had these really wonderful jewish communities and since they've become only stronger party. It's because of cod. Which took morocco on especial project. But partly it's because of the community there anyway so and we. We learned this week. That morocco has basically scrubbed all of its textbooks of anything. Anti-israel at is now positively introducing programs to talk about about the importance of jewish culture morocco. Jewish culture jewish culture predates islam culture in morocco. And that's part of what they're teaching as well so all of which is to say that there was this time when there were open borders when jews and muslims left not always in peace one with the other but basically in peace with the other as part of a single culture and this thing with morocco invites us to imagine a middle eastern which that's the case as again and all of the excitement that one the kind of shocking excitement that one feels in israel they want see and israel over these last days of these moroccan communities. Who are in the back of my stupid ashkenazi mind. I always imagine these are just like likud. Voters they don't like arabs or something ridiculous. 'cause i'm an idiot and but they're celebrating this because they have this image. They grew up with their grandparents telling them this image of middle east and they think that it could happen. And that's just overwhelmingly powerful to me. Can i put the fly in the. Because i am sorry to be a bummer. But i have to ask you and don as you know committed leftist. Is there any kind of any kind of twinge of if you see Israel's treatment i mean the reason we don't have or haven't had relationships with these countries is ostensibly you if you're not being cynical ostensibly because we have not done right by the palestinians and there's a carrot and a stick and not having normal formalized full relations with the arab world is part of the stick does not part of you worry that if we're getting all of these goodies that are making us so happy without doing anything. You know towards a solution for the palestinian issue or towards the palestinians that it's going to push it even further away. I suspect we might disagree about this. What do you think well. I think it's a double edged sword. I think on the one. Hand that if there's more peace in the middle east the chances for the palestinian conflict to be resolved go up not down. I think the more secure israel feels The more at different different administration not this one different administration willing to Think an start to think a little bit outside the box in and find some kind of justice with the palestinians. I thought you were going to rain on the parade with the What my one of my heroes. Yes mikhail's fried wrote about in our. It's the tribes live in the western sahara. Who have been recognized as having a right to smash self-determination are really just being sold out here And he argues that That mirrors our occupation of the palestinians so Netanyahu is very happy to have another country and its occupation be accepted by the world. So i think morally. This is very problematic. And that's that's the dark side of this whole issue. Of course. I think like most people in the world who don't follow morocco closely. I never heard of this issue until this week. Dalia shine lynn. Explain it all to me. And she knew she knew. All the all the ins and outs and obviously there's You know an an irony going on there because we're talking about what they some people consider another occupation right. Yes so. I think that that's a little bit too. Fancy i mean. I i completely. It was obvious that there would be this complaint on the left. And i don't know anything about this. Either until so maybe maybe the rights of these people and the polisario are you completely legitimate. And maybe this is. America has just has just committed another outrageous international injustice. I don't know. But i think that that you to the issue at hand of though of your what what is relevant most immediately to us and what is changing for us because we we have not recognize them particularly. This occupation is Is these relations. And i do think that they are potentially game changing at about the palestinians. I mean one of the calls that the king of morocco was to the president of the palestinian authority. Saying we're not going to sell you out. I don't know how reliable that is either. But i do agree with don that i think that the that when you have closer relations and more to lose than i think that the chances of israel of israel taking seriously the palestinians and also feeling secure enough to be able to to allow a palestinian state to rise with an army and all the rest goes up not down and i think that the more people who who embrace this image of a middle east where where jews and arabs are not like cats and dogs just in their nature enemies. I think that the chances of peace go up with that to a returning to the topic of the dynamic of the The nature of the feeling of the piece The the whole bahrain. Traveling to do buy you a e-business feels like meeting exciting new stranger and the some morocco news feels like you know a reunion with with long lost relatives here here. Now listen to this de da da. Da da da softer do know fits the do me no. It's that's is. Dna fash by gil. Rush and ensemble sheree dude. And now it's time for our second discussion. So don is the joint list. Not so much joint. Well the mostly arab joint lists would not have come into being had. The knesset nod voted in march. Two thousand fourteen to raise the minimum election threshold. A political party is required to receive two three and a quarter percent. Meaning that to get in the knesset at all. A party needs to win four seats less than that. And the votes are tossed out this legislation quite openly targeted. Israel's arab parties in the prior election in two thousand thirteen the only arab party to get more than three and a quarter percent was the united arab list ru- Which had run together with another party. Called the arab movement for renewal tau the arab democratic party the national democratic alliance ballot and the mostly arab democratic front for peace and equality cadarache each got under three percent of the vote. The right wing politicians who voted to raise the minimum election threshold figured that schismatic palestinian israeli politician would split the arab vote and this new threshold would prevent some or all of these arab parties from taking their seats in the knesset. But that's not what happened instead. The parties got together and formed. What is called the joint list and with some hiccups the success of the venture has been greater than probably anybody expected right now. They held fifteen seats in the knesset. That's more than any guns blue and white party. They're the third largest party. After the likud in asia teed still the relationship status on the joint this facebook page must say it's complicated because the four parties that make up. The list are very different from one another. The biggest today is actually a joint jewish arab communist party with some environmentalism secularism and light feminism thrown in the mix bala is a pan arab somewhat separatist party committed to palestinian nationalism and more vigorous secularism towel as a sort of the middle of the road. Big ten party and r- Is the political wing of the southern islamic movement committed to islamic law rather the same way ultra-orthodox jewish parties are committed to jewish law. So the joint list. You've got communist socialists. Social democrats capitalists islamicists radical atheists feminists folks not certain that women should be part of politics palestinian nationalist and comintern internationalised champions of lgbtq rights and homophobes on the other hand joint lewis members probably agree that a palestinians within israel have gotten a raw deal and discrimination against them needs to end be. The occupation is a disaster for palestinians in the territories who deserves self-determination on the right of return and see a rejection of zionism as an organizing principle for israel wishing to see the country not as jewish and democratic but rather as a nation of all its citizens that privileges no religion or ethnicity. And that's a lot to share but is it enough. That's the question on our minds since monster abbas leader of the most conservative and religious of the parties that make up the joint list. Rahm has undertaken a bold ambitious and perhaps suicidal political gambits. It began in october. When monsour abbass was chairing a plenary meeting of the knesset in his role as one of half a dozen deputy speakers of the knesset. A vote was taken on an opposition proposal to set up a parliamentary committee to investigate. Prime minister netanyahu's role in the submarine purchase and bribery affair. And to everyone's surprise the vote passed twenty five to twenty three with members of the coalition. Apparently out for coffee or in the bathroom anyway. Abbas was asked to hold the vote again on the sketchy grounds that a roll call vote had been requested in time. That's one of the points of contention and us agreed. Basically giving a big fat gift to the prime minister to the outrage of partners in the opposition after that dr abbas praised the police for trying to fight the culture of violence in the arab community. Then netanyahu made a zoom appearance. At the knesset committee on arab affairs that abbas chairs to complement abbas for his leadership relations between the on party head and prime minister were soon close enough that friend of the province podcast journalist the on shelf could plausibly characterize them as quote a love fest unquote did a media blitz telling almost anyone who would listen that it was time for a new sort of politics and the joint list quote. We need to decide whether we're going to serve our community or just grandstand on quote abbas wrote on facebook. He insisted that he was in. Nobody's pocket no longer in the less pocket and not in the rights that he would not in the right spot it that he would be his own man in a tv interview. He said the following. What do i have in common with the left and foreign policy. I'm with them. Of course we support the two state solution but on religious affairs. I'm right wing. I have a lot more in common with us. And united torah judaism than with merits and blue and white. In other interviews suggested that many pointless voters were like kim economically conservative socially conservative and religiously conservative that is to say more like right-wingers in everything but the issue of the occupation and this common language creates opportunities for him to cooperate with prime minister. Netanyahu finally when blue and white joined the opposition in voting to disband the current government in go to new elections abbas and the three other rum. Mk's did not show up for the vote and their absence was conspicuous. When asked if he plans to leave the joint list. Abba says no. He plans to lead the joint list. That in can happen but it does raise the question of what if anything we can learn from a fair the abbas about the nature of palestinian israeli politics in twenty twenty. What is a joint list when it contains such radically different views will our buses transactional but also values based cooperation approach with israel's right-wing yield more benefits to palestinian citizens of israel than the familiar oppositional approach and is bus a bold political thinker. Thinking outside the box or is another of netanyahu's dupes. Allison what do you think. Well from the beginning. This joint list has been A paradox and it's been driven by the increased desire of the Arab community in israel to be politically relevant to have a voice to wield some power and it was recognized correctly that split into the very tiny parties that they were split into. They didn't have that power. The you know the the usual analogy of a curling up each finger into a fist being able to To make an impact and In one of the elections. I lost track election. One two three day They again split up and they were punished. Could because separately they did not get as many votes as they had collectively and they quickly sort of got their act together and And joined together again to be a political force now you know their peak moment of being able to be relevant and being able to make a difference and being able to really have a voice in policy to benefit their community Came when they recommended. Benny gone certain to be To be prime minister they were. They decided we're getting in the game. We're gonna play the game and Slash blue and white dropped the ball on that one objecting not only to To ever considering bringing them into their coalition government but even supporting it from the from the outside and so when they tried to Aspire for power. You know through this opposition stance. Obviously it fell apart in. It fell through and ayman odeh who has been leading the joint list lost some of his credibility With that and so now. Here's months or a boss. I was at a briefing with him for foreign journalist very charming. You know does a very good job of winning people over. And he's basically saying you know we wanna play the game. We want to be in the game. We tried this way and it didn't work. And he is now trying the opposite of instead of gaining power by joining with the antibody forces playing the game. It's not an unclever thing to do. And it just I think you know for me. I'll shut up. In a minute. Shows the stepping away of the israeli palestinian population from from ideology towards topless wanting to improve their communities wanting to reduce the violence wanting better budgets for health education welfare etcetera and And bosses approach towards getting. It i don't think is completely crazy. Right i agree with that. I mean first of all this development with a bus does throw into really for show us more fully. What a miraculous achievement that joint list has been for most of the last five years. I mean it is remarkable that these four parties have managed to work together. They're always along the way. Been disagreements and fights and anger among them but they have basically work together. Remarkably successfully and pretty peacefully for most of four years. And now that you hear abbass then you. You're reminded about how unlikely it is that that ever could have happened because here are people who are really really different and one of the big issues of if he tried to make one jewish party. You know it'd be crazy crazy so over the summer. There was a discussion that there was a bill brought up to try to unbanned conversion therapy because conversion therapy is illegal for. Lgbtq folks is illegal in israel and and one of the. I think if i'm remembering correctly one of their right wing. Religious parties wanted to say. Look if people wanna do what they ought to be able to do it. And within the joint list then than this party. Ru- led by a bus Supports in principle supports conversion therapy. And they in. They don't do this in hebrew but when they're speaking in arabic they refer to lgbtq folks as perverts And so they were in favor of allowing conversion therapy and it was a big fight within the joint list And they end the vote. I if i remember correctly ended up being split so have always been these kinds of issues but they have basically basically you using your your metaphor of the fist alison. They've basically all of them. Continue to believe that the power of the fifteen of them together to get eat including practical concessions about budgets to to primarily humidity heading committing to those kinds of things that it was in their interest to stick together and now now a is doing this other strategy and it is true. I think that like. I basically looking from the outside and not really understanding as much as i do about palestinian politics to me. It seems like all the sides are right. Both sides are right in this strategic. Difference where the the people like. I'm oda who say no. We have to insist on our principled. Stand that we cannot support a government that does so much to strengthen the occupation. We simply can't we are by nature oppositional until the occupation ends. I completely understand completely respect that position and the more transactional position of boss where he says. No look we have real constituents who have real problems in their real lives that have to do with healthcare schools and roads and things like that is our job to take care of that. And i think that i completely understand that principal's position as well so i know what it adds up to. I think it's a little A little messier than than than it sounding You know the abbas critics are charging that he's already agreed to vote for the french law that would prevent netanyahu for being put on trial in exchange for becoming a minister and lowering the voting threshold again so his party could get in without being part of the joint list You know and look the this now. Government is investing more Economic development funds in the average community than any government ever has a since the robin governments while they also vilify the arab community as traders and a fifth column every time. There's an election. So you know i think bus ride on the one hand at bennigan's says no friend of the That the arabs need first and foremost for the violence. I mean the murder rate in arab communities in israel has gone through the roof that needs to be addressed immediately I will say that. I'm an oda also wants to be a player in israeli politics. He doesn't want. This is not the traditional Position of you know we're gonna say outside until we resolve the palestinian conflict you know they. They were willing to support the blue and white coalition. They as you said you know. They recommended begins to be prime minister and we're very disappointed when he kind of threw them under the bus. No to go back to your issue about you know the the way they talk about the lgbtq community. One of the charges is that alba's is trying to demonize a lgbtq in order to Boost his base And you know if that's his strategy even to hell with him you know that that's what he wants to do. This is not a guy that i that i can respect. I did let you know. Listen so a lot of what he said. And i think he's making really good points. The community needs their issues. Need to be addressed And the issues are very extreme And this generation of politicians including odor take a very different position. They want to be in israeli politics. They want to be part of this society. They wanna be decision makers they wanna of influence and they want their constituents needs to be met in their constituents kind of want the basic same decent middle class life that the rest of Israel society the majority jewish society aspires to and there are a lot of socially conservative people among them as well. Yeah no no. I'm not saying the valley. Look i think the values arguments is making are legitimate and that's something that the liberal and leftist camps needs to deal with you know how. How are you going to build alliances of people who don't share all your values and don't are not on the liberal or progressive or universalist bandwagon. Where do you make common cause And i think i do think I in some way. He is being a dupe. Because i think netanyahu has worked very hard to peel him away. They looked for the weak link and the joint list And and i'm i have no doubt that netanyahu hours emissaries have been You know slow dripping the feed to abyss for the past year year. At least that you are in the pocket of the left you're in the pocket of the left And You know that those lines may have come from The likud now. I'm not saying he couldn't have he couldn't be thinking that on his own independently but Just knowing how netanyahu operates this seems like a classic netanyahu tactic you can join the club of netanyahu dupes growing by the day. I think he has more agency than that. He's a smart guy. he's a dentist now. Listen to this so on a slow shula hands channel. the sel huggy shy. You these laura who's on. That song is the derailed. By gail harish and ensemble sheer new can find them in all the usual places and now it is time for our third discussion which we are calling chicken facts. And here's why a sort of history was made last week win during a television broadcast of a prime ministerial press conference. A box popped up near. Benjamin netanyahu's left shoulder that read quote what's been said. Netanyahu colon blue and white are breaking the coalition agreement the facts the likud has broken section thirty of the coalition agreement which stipulated that a two year budget would be passed and quote. This was the first time that in israeli politician has ever been fact checked in real time on live television. The next day you published a screenshot of the speech covered with similar fact checks. The prime minister had said that quote blue and white has broken the coalition agreement from the first moment end quote. But the fact was according to the paper that the likud broke the agreement i. The prime minister claim that israel is owned biological institute was working on our own homegrown vaccine and the first doses would come soon but the fact was is your doesn't have a production site and the earliest will see these vaccines. According to the ministry of health is april and it goes on like that this little bit of fact checker one lots of applause on social media as when independent journalists and leftist activists or the bar lev posted quote. Israeli media is starting to break out of its years of shocked inaction fact checking in real time. Suddenly they're showing some signs of independence of thought and criticism and journalism in the service of the facts end of the public and quote. Course anyone who's watched american television news over the past years has seen. The american press grow bolder while covering trump and real time fact checking chirons and bubbles are now were in washington from whence no doubt journalists in tel aviv and jerusalem. Filched the idea. But i will tell you. I was sad to see it. Come here. I think it's a bad thing but before i'm out off i will ask you to. Do you think that the new more aggressive gloves off in your face. Fat check ash attitude or two as i call it of the press is a good thing or not. Allison urine journalist. What do you think i actually think. It's a great idea as long as it's applied across the board if it's not only directed at At netanyahu if you know it's it's also Oh i'm sure it will be. I doubt about that. It'd be even. And i think that it's not only It's santelli important now. but it's It's it's life saving you know in terms of there's there's so much of an information Excuse the expression shit show when it comes to covid when it comes to vaccines etc so you know establishing over and over again what. The facts are what's true and what's not true is Is really crucial. And what do you think the value added of doing it in. Real time is because i The initial headline or initial news. That comes out you know at the moment. That is what people remember. That's what's seared in in people's brain and if you wait and then publish that. Follow up article. It used to be the next day but you know now in internet time you know the next hour the next two hours the next three hours. The what's the what's the Expression about the ally can go around the world thousand times while the truth is getting his pants on or something like that. Leasing up its boots slicing up its booth. Yeah yeah yeah. Something like that So therefore because we do have the technology for it to be in real time which we didn't use to possess a now that we possess like i say Go for it. Because otherwise that headline of bbc says xyz which is a liar incorrect is going to stand there for a certain amount of time before it gets switched over. So why not let people know The actual facts At the same time. Don whether you think well i look. It's complicated and i think. Bb is a special case. We need to talk about that in distinction from the general issue as well look fact checking a legitimate necessary function of journalism As alison said. It needs to be applied even-handedly And it needs to be done with reliable information sourcing. In israel there is a ngo which the globes ended up buying called the whistle which had a did a very good job at this Trying to provide accurate information as quickly as possible. It is very hard as you Suggested nowhere to do this live Abbas alison as you pointed out. The viewers are gonna see netanyahu's you know eight pm speech when he Dominates the the tv news cycles But they won't be watching when the The commentary comes later correct. Things that he said rich aren't true. I i think it's really unpleasant to think. They were playing a game of gotcha with our political leaders seeking to trip them up In real time and it does feel disrespectful. Fact checking is though gotcha ship them up some of it. Yeah some of it is to say look. You just lied. I we and here we you in your ally but i think our political discourse is so abnormal and obviously obviously this is you know the info the influence of trumpism where you have One of the world's most powerful leader Lying consistently Just endlessly election that. There is massive fraud and so on odd infinitum in in the states Networks like cnn had to respond because otherwise you are serving as the the pulpit for an endless stream of lies. Then it's in your house. Game is different ministers. Sammy perez wrote in arts. He takes over the screen whenever it suits and by staging these talks which in which he praises himself to the guy and takes credit for everything and blames other people politicians or his own appointed officials media. I just have to to. The community has gotten better and better at cutting away from him. When he's supposed to be announcing something about copen any launches into a political speech and they they cut away from but the second a long time. So i think it's it is it is part of immediate. What you just said. It's part of the media trying to fight back feeling like they are being manipulated and it's special case. He attacks the media endlessly except for his own media which which kind of control which he controls or which is they're basically to boost him You know and and then he takes over. and then. I mean in this case that triggered the whole discussion. He actually did take questions at the end which he hasn't been doing for years and he has simply giving interviews for years so he's you know he's he's really trying to manipulate the media and all different ways so in some ways i think it's it's just fighting back as uncomfortable as it also can make me feel if it's if it's done just to to to be gotcha. We said. i wish. I believed it was abnormal. But unfortunately i think it's a new normal the lying. Yeah well. I don't have very many doubts about the motivations of the press which i take to be a genuine interest in presenting his true a picture as they can of of the the reality at hand and i also don't have any great doubts that the press will when the time comes to any leader on the left or in the center as as well with the same with the same glee. But i do have. I do think this is a bad idea for a few reasons. First of all. I think that the press is taking on a job that it will not be able to discharge well and that that is. It's going to backfire. I just think that. I mean i have a pyschological problem which i realize fancy word but like i think that that there's too simple a theory of knowledge here like the idea that there are. The world is divided up into truths and lies or facts and false facts or fake facts or fake news. I think is not really the case like in this. In this case where netanyahu was saying that blue and white were breaking the coalition agreement right and left and then the fact check said well. Actually the likud broke the agreement and then eventually one of them said the likud broke the agreement i I think that in fact both sides have broken the agreement in ways that are completely asymmetrical and that it's true that i think that the way in which the likud has broken the agreement is much more agreed than the way that blue and white has but i think that you cannot have the nuance. You need In in a little bubble on the screen. And by saying we're going to we're going to identify the lies and tell you the truth. Then it forces the press including in this very first instance to say something. That just looks like a half truth. And i think undercuts the The the authority of the press ultimately and what's more and this is my biggest problem. Psych we know we. The people are sitting at home watching this thing. We fucking no. We know we're we're smarter than the the press thinks of us. We know that. Netanyahu is not allowing the budget to be passed so that he will have a way to get sneak out of the the the rotation agreement that he signed with bennigan's everyone in the country knows that there is no one who doesn't know that and to say every time he ignores that he does not say that to say you know he's really lying because you know what he's really doing is this is unnecessary kind of sending sweeping assumption to say that the everybody in the country knows that when their prime minister stands up there and says something. It's ally no i. I don't think that well. I don't think that ally is the right word to use. But it's that this is his spin his take and also the people that support him. It's their take as well. And i think that they. I think that all of us are much more aware about the facts. That are being fact. We've seen fact check so far. I think that that the fact checking is utterly unnecessary. It's completely performative. Suppress trying to say. I felt like. It's sort of like throwing tomatoes. I felt like it would be better if the press every time. They said something that they thought was lie. They threw tomatoes at him. I th. I think that it would be more effective more entertaining shocked by would be more effective because basically what they're saying they're not saying to you out there. Please understand the truth and please understand the nuance of this situation. Because there are unable to medium doesn't allow that all they're saying is that guy is lying to you. He's allying liar. Don't believe think tomatoes would be more effective now. But i look. I think that you know to say this to the epistemological level There are things that are open to interpretation and you gave the example of Which party has Broken the agreement or have they both broken the agreement or to what degree and and there there's interpretation of what of many different Incidents the months But but there are also things which are matters of information and fact you know that if you say one hundred police officers were infected with corona at a rally. And that's simply not true that you just made that up you know so i think that when when we have leaders who are inventing lies Which trump does literally every time. He speaks And netanyahu does when it serves him. And i think that does need to be countered. And i don't agree with you that everyone in the country understands dynamics of the Why the budget isn't passed. I don't think many israelis understand what the national budget is at all. So i so i think you're giving your you're thinking of the class of people who follow politics closely Which is not the majority of the citizens in any country. One nowh- where somebody doesn't understand. Are they going to if they read. Suddenly you see on their screen. Somebody says the the likud has broken section. Thirty of the coalition agreement with stipulates that a two year budget would be passed. Do they gain any insight into anything at all. They just found out what one of the sources of the disagreement is. And i would say you're assuming that there are not people in this country who listen to. It's now and just believe everything he says. And i think that's that's not accurate so you think that there are think there were people out there watching who are saying you know this guy. Netanyahu i like him and he's making sense to me right now but then it pops up on the screen that says and they say oh you know what section thirty of the coalition agreement. That's right it does say that there should be a two year budget. I no longer believe netanyahu doing. I don't think that's what it's about. I don't i don't think it's there. I think they're trying to say we are tired of being used. This is argument that they're they're throwing tomatoes there. What tomatoes. i think they're saying this is this is is a public broadcasting The airwaves or cable or satellite or wherever it is these days and you know you. You can't come and just lie whatever you feel like it or distort things whatever you feel like it if we do we will point it out in real time so that the same people who are watching also see what should be done. Let's let's let's get away from you. Don't like what they're doing. What would you have them do i. I would have them. Treat like the facts that they are presenting. This is simply what the prime minister is saying. The prime minister like basically what it is is the fact that the people deserve the prime minister. By the way. I don't think he should lie but i think that that is part of politics lying all the time. It always has been so so so they presented they. Just we. I get to see netanyahu talking without without anyone trying to mediate it for me. And then the ne- then immediately thereafter or the next day or whatever people who have interpretations of this and who have opinions about it present. Those and i read them and i'm either persuaded or not persuaded should the opposition leader get equal. Time every time. Netanyahu's on the air. The opposition leader. I don't think so. I think the prime minister is the elected leader of this country in the prime minister gets to say what he wants and some of it inevitably will be lies and i think that there are or miss truths or spin or whatever or his particular perspective and i think that that there we ought to have a. We have a very vibrant market of ideas. Afterwards of people saying he that was ally or exactly what this is. That's exactly what this culture of lying is intending to prevent its incident intending to To date the market of ideas there is no actual debate. There is no actual discussion. The prime minister never answers questions. He never allows interviews. He does not want america. we need we. Don't need him to answer questions. In order for two week we get to speak. And i disagree. I read facebook. I read newspapers. And i think that there's a lot of discussion about a lot of things all the time and influenced. I might agree with you if we lived in pre internet world. If the only place that netanyahu could present himself know unfiltered uncensored out there to the people to watch without being fat check without being questioned anything if the television was the only place but now he lives aero where he can put whatever he wants on facebook inc whatever video he wants to pre record and put on twitter and yes if he's using like don said these public airwaves if they are cutting into you know he always does at eight o'clock. The time that the evening news is on when people are actually looking for facts if he wants to use that platform than i have no problem with the journalistic outlet if they're presenting it as part of the evening news to make the utmost effort to have it presented. Inaccurately that you don't think that it's somehow abrogating the distinction that used to exist between what they call the news division and the editorial division of newspapers or of of television news shows not if it's presented as fact checking and not if it's not you know like you said tomatoes. Oh you know he's allying liar. He's an asshole if you're actually presenting facts that contradict what he is saying if he is actually lying in their pointing out lies and obviously that They're they're they're paying close attention to what their facts. They're not doing it for the sake of doing it. I don't have a problem with it. I just don't think facts are that way. I don't think that you can do it so easily. I think that factor some of them are where some of them are not. Okay now listen to this stephen. She sued a home Showman line is halal by your gil. Harish and unscramble sheer easy. Do and now. it's time for countries segment. This is the part of the show with each of us described something that might have surprised or amused delighted or enchanted in sold or me even flew this as we win their way through our world over the last don. What is your country. Well hanako would seem to be the ultimate holiday of the nationalist particular celebrating the jewish victory over the syrian-greeks to restore our religious practices and yet hanukkah's also a holiday of the universal celebrating. The victory of the weak over the strong the oppressed over the oppressor just listened to peter. Paul and mary's light one candle and if we look at the story closely it's also about jewish traditionalist defeating jewish assimilationist. Although it's not clear who had the last laugh and is the most difficult part of celebrating their particular acknowledging someone else's particular. Well neither of you reject the universal. Well if you're still with me. This theme wove itself through my hannukah week. Which is ending tonight which began predictably enough with a webinar conference in honor of seventy years of relations between finland in israel Zeh shin the israel center for educational innovation co sponsored. The event with the embassy of finland and two of israel's leading teachers colleges that keep would seem college of education and the levinsky college of education now. The subject of this conference was echo humanism. A synthesis of humanistic education and the desire to save our planet will. You can't really get more universal than that. All add about the conferences that finland's first speaker opened her powerpoint with a picture of santa claus and reindeer in four feet of snow. And said i'm talking to you from inside the arctic circle in lapland. This fellow lives just up the road and the snow is exactly what i see outside my window. No it moved me to be talking to professor in the arctic circle. It made me happy that there is still snow somewhere in the world and also made me happy that the mostly jewish israeli participants didn't feel the need to invoke the separation of church and state at the citing of santa the arctic is also where the characters ended the first season of his dark materials. The hbo adaptation of philip pullman 's marvelous trilogy which has become our slow federman family series by fiat. No family member is allowed to watch this show on their own. Only when all of us are together now all three kids had this week off from college the army and high school so he bins through season two as brave liar will move from world to world in pullman celebration of youthful pluck and bonds with animal avatars and the fantastic reality just beyond the familiar but the series is also a venomous attack. On the stifling oppression of the church and its hierarchy as pullman season which is entertaining identify with our side to try in our tiny way to understand what the other side might be feeling. We watched stream of an astonishing play. The heroes of the fourth turning about four young graduates of a conservative catholic college in wyoming. Who not only feel terribly threatened by the liberal world that i champion but whose discourses unfamiliar to me. The characters were tortured souls but not familiar tortured souls. The gap between us is not that we have different positions on hot button issues. Although we do but that are existential. Concerns are different. How's your soul one character asks another and it's been a long time since i had such a conversation and then we saw cnn. Broadcasting live state-by-state the votes of the electoral college until california's electors the ones that we all voted for in our household put biden over the top and made his election official. I watch this historic moment with my three kids still awake at twelve twenty eight. Am israel time and up until this year. I'd never watched the electoral college votes with my kids. Because i've never seen it at all. Suddenly this seemingly technical procedure was a reaffirmation of democracy. And the will of the people of truth over lies but my satisfaction was muted by the thought that the other side no doubt saw. Cnn's broadcast as rubbing defeat in their faces. Now to understand hundred historical other. You cheer on. I watch the royal. Shakespeare company's troy story get at troy story dramatic readings of sections of the ilia. The need and the odyssey and again i was struck not by the similarity but by the difference. I mean the greek hero. Achilles spends most of the iliad sitting out the trojan war bitching and moaning that the king has own king had stolen the woman. He captured that he had taken as war booty. In a previous battle and then achilles male lover and best friend dies in battle dressed in armor until finally achilles tantrum and goes to fight. This ain't the book of the maccabees. Which itself wasn't accepted into the canon by the rabbis preferred to focus on the godly miracle of oil rather than guerrilla war military glory than last night. To come full circle. I heard about the heroines of hanukkah at our hoverer hannukah zoom gathering from the wonderful writer. Sarah boy to end circle back to hannukah's first night which we like all the parents and the democratic school watched zoom. The twelfth graders had shot a hilarious video of kids racing around far saab in an olympic style. Torch relay to deliver the torch finally to our daughter myron who is standing in front of the schools actual giant haunted kia at the actual school. So she could sing. The breakout and light the candles now. The olympic torch relay. You know just like the ceremony of dedicating a building which we translate as konaga. That was a greek practice which we made our own insistence. Since this was the only connor gathering there would be at school instead of lighting one candle. They followed bates shama and let all eight candles on the first night iconoclastic particular universalist kids that they are. My online company adapted an integrated renewed and revamped jewish and greek. And all with a sense of humor. And for those of you who are listening to this time to light your full hundred zero tonight. I hope each of your eight candles will burn with its individual color and as one great flame together here here. Alison what is your country at achilles what he so. There's the whole people of the book thing. Jews love books they read books etc. Israeli's love for books as embodied by the annual israeli book week which we all desperately miss back in the days when we were allowed to actually enjoy large events with crowds of people. Remember that There that event though is infused with the joy of the revival of the hebrew language. But those aren't the people of the book. I'm gonna talk about right now. I'm talking about are crazy. Little imigrants subgroup. In israel the native english speakers who over the years have transformed themselves into hebrew. Speaking creatures where we live and work and love in this country in hebrew but still the english language is deeply infused in us. And it's how best express ourselves to our families friends and the wider world now considering are small number and how busy life is here. I have recently been overwhelmed by the number of people in my circles who are able despite all the obstacles to produce books good books all of the amazing writers that i know here now when i say writers. I'm not talking about people like me. Humble journalists who write for a paycheck or those people less humble who set out at a young age to be academics. Like noah novelists or author's writing books as part of their career arc. But i'm talking about the people who relatively late in life decide to write a book for love who have really something to say and not only must they say they need to say it to the world and put it in print between two covers and or on the internet. This phenomenon has become more pronounced in recent years. I suppose in the age of self publishing print books and the ability to public electronic books independently As well so this week. I had lunch with two of those impressive people. My neighbor laurie. Benef- coffman has done. What so many people fantasize about and late in life in her sixties with kids in her thirties is publishing with a mainstream publisher. Her first novel rebel daughter. It's a young adult novel set in. Get this the year seventy. It's not every day you get to read a coming of age. Book set in the time of the destruction of jerusalem with jewish roman love triangle at the center. It's fresh right because you got your civil war. Romance is you got your world. War two romances. But you don't often see your fall of jerusalem. Romances we were joined in our lunch by julie gray who has just published a book called the true adventures of get on. Live the story of an eighty five year old holocaust survivor that she shares her life with She interweaves his really amazing journey with their unlikely relationship. So even if you've read your share of holocaust memoirs her perspective adds a new twist and is very humorously and enjoyable written. So maybe it was the novelty of actually sitting with life human beings these days julian laurie at a distance. Of course. But what. I saw with these two industrious women as they traded the vagaries of the book writing experience and the book publishing business with something very impressive and unique and then in the very same week i attended an online book launched by guy. I work with that. How arts larry turf ner. He has published playing till we have to go his memoir of his childhood in inner city los angeles living in a colony of european jewish immigrants in the heart of the city and their children. He wrote it right on the heels of his other memoir no country for jewish liberals which he wrote about his life in israel so as someone who hasn't written a book i guess i should say hasn't yet written a book written a book. I hope i guess. I have to say i am so impressed by what is continually being produced around me with people i interact with everyday. Yes don that includes your amazing children's book even though it's in hebrew i'm sure the great stuff on your podcast will make it into print sunday as well. I always say that israel is an easy place to be a journalist. No would probably say it's an easy place to be a podcast or too because everyone here it seems has a story that you would read in a book and now it seems that many of them have a story worthy of a book and then they're in a book and what's more they have the creativity determination and vision to actually produce one. I am enjoying them all. I'm looking forward to reading more especially one that might be being written by somebody. I may be sitting in the studio with no. I take it away. That's so generous so you that's really nice. So the distance between our house and the high school where are covering meets game. Nazi her li. It's called is one and a half kilometers or a mile. You cover it in twenty minutes in stroll more or less lady susan mostly but not completely recovered from a broken ankle and leg takes the distance on a bicycle which leaves me to walk with the girl and there are times when the reason i go to schule at all is for the chance to walk with the girl usually to walk home with the girl the other week we were coming home down the hill on jabotinsky about to turn right onto bureau when she nudged me with her elbow and pointed with a tilt of her head and said see that man across the way there was a man on a bicycle talking to women both of them standing at the gate of a plant nursery called mush. They let us check him. I know him a little from the news and from political meetings that i've been to his name is the vita jar and he runs the nursery the plant nursery together with his brother. Yosef the to have some notoriety because for twenty years they've been fighting real estate developers who bought the land that they're folks immigrants from yemen called yona and to via tajar settled on in nineteen forty eight after the palestinians who live there before it was a small village called sumo l. fled or were chased out or whatever happened back then. Yona and to via tajar like lots of jewish immigrants whom the government encouraged to settle on now. Abandoned lands moved where they were told but they never registered the land their name so fifty sixty seventy years later after the land became some of the most valuable real estate in israel and actually some of the most valuable real estate in the world. I think the government said the people who live there were squatters and then the government sold the land so the tatars fight to keep the plot of land where they grew up in that their parents made into their home has pretty much failed now and soon the nursery is going to be replaced by a high rise but for the time being it's still there and think about some time usually when i'm biking by for a couple of reasons one because with it's kind of injustice layered upon injustice captures something about this place that place does but mostly i think about it for a completely different reason. The plant nursery is surrounded by low woven wire fencing. Maybe just a meter off the ground and you can easily push it down with your hand or stomp on it with your foot and just walk over it. And in any case lots of the plants that are for sale are right near the fence so that from the sidewalk you could reach over and just take him. Meaning that basically the whole plant. Nursery works on the honor system. Twenty four seven which is really a trusting thing for people being jerked around through the courts by repurchase developers to do. And i think about that so i say to the girl. Yeah what about them. And she says. I've gone to buy plants in that nursery a couple of times. The first time. I was in line behind a woman. Who's holding a plant you wanted to buy. And the man was kind of interrogating her asking her. How much light. She had an apartment and how she plans to take care of the plant and she was getting kinda mad about it and then he said no. I'm not gonna do it. You can't buy it a mocking going to sentence a plan to death by selling it to you and the woman was shocked and she wouldn't leave the line but he had decided that he would not sell it to her then. The girl went on the next time. I came back. I wanted to buy a plan for emas birthday. So i picked one out and he started asking me all sorts of questions. And i said it's for my eamonn. She knows how to take care of plants and she has lots of them and he looked at me skeptically and he said you know. I'm not going to sell you that plant because it's sensitive. It's a hard plan. Also you an easy plant that you can buy. If you're ema but if you see that that plan is suffering at your emas you must bring it back to me. You have to promise me that you will bring it back to me. And i will give you instead another plant and even easier plant the next week. We were walking home from the cover on a very rainy saturday morning. Anyone who's been in tel aviv in the winter knows that the city's kind of overrun or maybe overseas lined by big garden snails. Their scientific name is cornu s. Some when it rains for some reason all these sales come out lots of them onto the sidewalk and the girl is describing to me as we walk interviews that she did for paper that she's writing for her queer history and israel seminar about the decision to ordain. Lgbtq rabbis in the conservative rabbinical school in jerusalem. How people think that the issue at stake is which is more important jala or humanistic values but she says it really has a lot to do with lots of other things about tensions. Between american jews in israel is about the conservative movement's image in israel. Is it more secular. Is it more religious about whether sex ought to be near the center of your spiritual life or at the edges. It's about the authority of rabbis and lots of other things. The girl is telling me. And i'm listening pretty hard and i'm not paying attention to what's going on around me so takes me a while to notice that s. She's talking and walking. The girl keeps bending down to pick something up that dropped and what it is that each time we come to a snail on the sidewalk in there are lots of them. She stooping down to pick it up by shell and to put it on the grass or on a tree. And when i finally noticed this i say i see. You're watching over the snails. And she says we can all of us use a little watching over and that brings us the end of our show. Thanks to ashkenazi are genius. Research conciliatory scholar in residence. Thanks to shell are stationed manager without whom there'd be none of this thing so i. She believed my favorite band from keyboards. They give us a music star in the end of our show. Thank you alison. Thank you natalie. Thank you don. We'd like to thank all of our patriots support for your generosity and support. Keep the show going and it keeps a station going and we are moved and we are grateful and we are in your debt. And we'd like to thank you out there for taking the time to listen and ask you to like us on facebook and drop us a line. We're going to answer and then good apple. podcasts gifts. A five star review. Maybe one that begins with this to podcasts. Dropped in my podcast app and sorry. I could not hear both and be one listener long. I stood and previewed one. As long as i could at one and a half time speed i shelby telling this with a size. Somewhere ages and ages hence to podcasts. Dropped in my app. And i i heard the promise podcast and that made all the difference that finished anywhere you want but before you do that. Remember that tonight as we record as don just said we will light the eighth and final candle of konica a holiday celebrating the miracle that happened after the maccabi or hush monaim defeated king antonio host the fourth and the syrian and greek army. He commanded when they returned to the temple induce them to rededicate and sanctify it but found only one small jarve oil bearing the seal of the high priest enough to burn for just one night. But at god's intervention in fact it burned for eight and hanukkah has been amazing what with all the agendas doughnuts and only identity slot goes. And i because i am especially pious. Set my clock and got up early every morning. But i digress. Hannukah has been beautiful but tomorrow like a candle burning down in minora fist. It'll be out gone extinguished not return for a whole 'nother year not so the promise. Podcast we will be back for you next week and week reminding you that one there will always be janie and be sometimes the miracle you really want is for something to last longer but god shorter on this. The promise podcast.

kingdom of morocco bhutan israel zella netanyahu Netanyahu jerusalem Western sahara middle east bahrain polisario Donald trump zella eat jerusalem public square united arab emirates fountain impera square ron e rabin square
Kim Jong Un-healthy?

Pod Save the World

1:24:16 hr | 11 months ago

Kim Jong Un-healthy?

"The world is brought to you by the great courses with all. That's going on right now. We are so grateful for the great courses plus guys would incredible resource and streaming service for a time like this. I mean it's a small miracle I think all of us have this feeling that we cannot just piss away every minute of quarantine watching Netflix. We have to find some way to make ourselves feel slightly better about our use our time and that's where the great courses plus comes in handy. They had classes on history national security cooking photography meditation. There's all kinds of stuff you can do. This one's on chronic stress ever heard of that. I think you probably have more like carone stress. That's right you can watch or listen anytime through the great courses plus app you can stream videos to your TV and watch as a family. You keep those kids learning even while they are out of school. I know that every parent is looking for a that classic teacher move. Where you you put in the movie for forty five minutes of class. I think that a lot of parents are mashed up Benadryl and putting it in the applesauce because they need a break whether the school students or college students a great supplement to education for any better than Benadryl now is the perfect time to start the great courses plus giving our listeners. This limited time offer a free month of unlimited access to the entire library. Sign up today using our special URL to get started. Go to the great courses plus dot com slash crooked world. That's the great courses plus dot com slash crooked world the great courses plus dot com slash crooked world positive. America is come into North Carolina. Come see us live in Charlotte at the night theater on Sunday. August twenty third. That's during the Republican convention word. We'll dig into the news. What it takes for Democrats to win the twenty twenty election along with some very special guests get tickets at crooked dot com slash events. Welcome back to pad save the world. I'm tour Ben. Rhodes ben another big show today man. Another big ASS. I don't want to rank all of our guests to big guests in a row of this week. We have former secretary of state Former ambassador the United Nations Madeleine Albright. She's coming on to talk about her book. Hell and other destinations a twenty-first-century memoir. We just spoke to her. She is smart funny engaging the book sounds Great. So don't miss that interview because you'll be mad at yourself for the news portion of this. We got a bunch of ground to cover. So there's a long-awaited political agreement finally in Israel and we'll talk about that We will try to explain how the price of oil could turn negative very confusing headlines. Yesterday there are a bunch of rumors about Kim Jong UN's health and what that might mean for North Korea's future there's a bunch more attacks on democracy in Hong Kong in our ongoing series of stories. About how desk bits are using the corona virus to do terrible unrelated things. I will talk a bit about China's economic recovery and some interesting polling that your group. Did Ben on national security in Donald Trump and election so a lot of good stuff today A little less corona virus focus. Because I imagine it's is depressing for you guys. Sometimes it is for us so we're trying to cover everything. Yeah definitely one quick. Thank you before it gets to the news. More than fifteen hundred of you have used the call tool on save America dot com slash call to get connected with your representatives in Washington and tell them that they need to include funding to make election safe and accessible as part of the next corona virus. Relief package that is so amazing and it's really important to do while. The packages still being negotiated. Now we want one more thing which is to hear from you guys directly about why you need safer voting options including vote by mail. It could be because you have a pre existing condition that puts you at risk. It could just be you. Don't feel safe volunteering at the polls or being in a crowd but we want to hear your stories so send a video us at three two three four zero five nine nine four four. We can hear your story. Share your story and send a message to Congress and state governments about how important this is again. That number is three two three four zero five nine. Nine four tells your stories. We want to hear from you all right. Let's start with this. Political Agreement added Israel so after three elections year or more of instability. Israel's political leaders finalized finally a deal that will allow Israeli prime minister bb Netanyahu to stay in that job for at least another eighteen months now. That's assuming that deal doesn't fall apart which these things tend to do but Under the terms of this agreement Netanyahu's chief rival from several elections from the Blue White Party. Bennigan's he will be named Deputy Prime Minister and then in eighteen months. Guns is supposed to be elevated to the top job but if you believe that is going happen I would like to wager some. That's with you so the way. They're splitting up. Responsibilities is basically the Likud. Bb's Party will get to control. Education Transportation Housing Security Health and finance ministries will control Defense Foreign Affairs Culture Justice Media and God himself will be the defense minister. The plan reportedly papers over some of the more divisive issues by basically saying this is an emergency government. Let's spend six months focused on the corona virus. Let's punt all these hard questions like military service for Ultra Orthodox down the road to later. Bb's trial for fraud. Bribery breach trust. We'll start on. May Twenty fourth so we will have to watch all the ways he tries to obstruct that predictable Ben but still pretty pointing is where they landed on a Palestinian state Netanyahu and gone to both talked about annexing Israel settlements in the West Bank. Apparently they're gonNA take that proposal to the Knesset in July and move out on it and since the trump administration has endorsed that plan in the broader international community seems to have lost interest in fighting for the Palestinian state could go forward so this race over the past year. It got really ugly. Bb supporters called gone to terrorist sympathizer in Netanyahu's son who is the DON Jr. of Israel Spread rumors that God had created sex tapes that were hacked by Iranian agent. So really ugly in which led to blue and white party members being furious about this agreement. I don't know how the party survived this. But we'll see this week in Tel Aviv. Thousands of mask-wearing Netanyahu protesters or opponents Stood two meters apart in a socially distance protests which is a pretty amazing visual. So ben a couple of questions for you. Do you agree with this analysis that basically this is the best gone was going to get In this environment given the corona virus given the polling given BB's power. And what do you think this means for? People like us who still hope one day that there is a two-state solution. I mean. I'm sure it was really hard environment but I don't think that this was the best you know we've been through three elections what. Bb's basically been able to do is kind of you. Know protract to stalemate so that he's the last man standing and part of what worries me about this. Tommy is if if you look at the history of BB's elections he often has succeeded in neutering If not ending the political careers of his opponents by bringing that into his government and then kind of outmanoeuvring them blaming them for things using their you know their awkwardness of being kind of half with BB and half out to undermine their public support. And so if you go back and look you know zippy. Livni ran against in two thousand nine actually got more votes than him. Couldn't form a coalition ended up coming into a BB government as foreign minister and that was kind of the end of her political career. Eight brock who'd been prime minister before and a political. Bb comes in as defense. Minister ends up kind of not a viable politician on the back. And you have your peed who is seen as one of the leading centers challenges to be be similarly comes in same thing happens and so there is a pretty clear pattern here where bb kind of runs the coalition game. He doesn't have majority support for him but he makes it difficult for anybody to bigger than the essentially the far right block parties that he can assemble he. Kind of CO OPS and brings the political opponent Matt Person Ends up getting chewed up and so I think we should look for signs over the next eighteen months. If that's the play that's happening again. And if God says stars being diminished and BBC's somehow undermining him or blaming him for things I'd look for that. I'd also look for whether or not any other opposition to to be emerges energy that the blue and white party tried to harness. The people just want to move past now. Does that coalesced around somebody else. Other than Bennigan's I thought the P. Who was kind of one of the other important figures in blue and white? It was pretty blunt in in how he described this as essentially a betrayal away. Yeah and so I think that to me. It's it's an unsatisfying outcome. They kind of preserves the stalemate it's unclear what it means for corruption trial. I think this suspicion is that you know. He's sitting Prime Minister. That will be more difficult for for prosecutors to effective move. Ford brought to see on that and I think in general on the Palestinian issue clearly. That didn't feel like something that gone was fighting for you. Know to have a more. You know rational. And this way including the Palestinians that guns was not fighting in these negotiations for a radically different policy and approach that could bring about a Palestinian state that the conversation seems to be about when and how fast and how much to annex the West Bank so again. I think we're not going to see changes on a lot of these. We talk about going Palestinian issue unless we get beyond this type of stalemate government and really actually one of the telling signs will be the US election because you know if the US moves in a different direction and be kinda thrown his lot in fully with trump. I think that might undercut him a bit at home too so that could have some impact on how this plays out but but for me. This is a generally a win for Netanyahu. Yeah that seems right. I mean look you know the one constant about Netanyahu is. He is a savvy smart political operator he. He tends to win in the end. It does seem like he may have engineered a series of divisions of Labor that will allow him to appoint people to oversee zone prosecution so yeah And not ideal but what what are you GONNA do? Yeah you know just to be specific on Lupi who was not a left-wing guys a centrist but opposing. The now he went out and he said I apologized. Everyone convinced over the past year to vote for Benny Ganz. I didn't believe your votes would be stolen. There's not been such deceit since the establishment of the state. So I mean that's A. That's a much more dire diagnosis. And even I gave and that's from someone who's generally centrist in the context of Israeli politics. Yeah so not the outcome. I think any of us. We're we're hoping for but you know we don't get a vote so it is what it is to note that. We're recording this on a Tuesday April twenty first which Holocaust Remembrance Day according to the associated. Press there are about one hundred. Eighty thousand Holocaust survivors remaining in Israel. there's a similar number elsewhere in the world. Tragically these are obviously people. Were extremely old at this point You're seeing a lot of survivors Getting taken by Cova D- I remember vividly like taking a class in eighth grade. That was called facing history and ourselves that was about the Holocaust in that that class was punctuated at the end by presentation from a Holocaust survivor. And it made me think I mean that was such a powerful formative classes for me that stuck with me forever and you know it's concerning given how much Holocaust I'll is out in the world. It's unnerving to think that we might soon live at a time where there are no survivors left to offer these firsthand accounts. But you know one powerful experience. I think you were a part of was the trip rock. Obama took with Eli's l. When they toured Buchenwald. Could you just talk a little bit about Elliot? L. For anyone? Who might not know who he is and what that experience was like. Yeah it was. It was amazing. So Elliott Resell wrote one of the seminal books about the Holocaust Memoir called night About his experience at Buchenwald when he was a boy and obviously lost a family in the Holocaust and became kind of a leading spokesperson on behalf of Holocaust survivors. You know in a key figure in History of Israel and the history of the Jewish people and you know we we flew into Buchenwald with angle miracle and so is it was Obama Angela Merkel in Elis L. and they literally walked a few paces in front of us. Remember that weird feeling of being a staffer. And you're kind of feet behind touring this camp. That Obama's great uncle had actually helped liberate And so Obama had this weird connection to the camp and Ellie resolved been there and and they literally went to the spot where he had been as as a boy and you know and then to see after that event Obama and miracle and Ellie. We sell all spoke in early results. Spoke very powerful. You know eloquently about the need to remember but sort of miracle. I remember being struck by her remarks which are kind of off the cuff about Germany's obligation and unfortunately it was kind of A. It feels like it comes from a different era of making sure that we we learn the lessons from history and the the darkest possible us in the Holocaust and some my family. My family my mother cyber European Jews and so some of them didn't emigrate to the United States. Where we're in the Holocaust. And and I. I had this other vivid recollection of Elliott. Zell coming to have lunch with Barack Obama and the White House and I got to sit in the lunch. It was just the three of us and he wanted to talk about not policy towards Israel not US foreign policy. He wanted to talk about concepts of of love and friendship. And and how do you find meaning in life and had you not become despondent from history but learn from it? I mean this was a man with like a powerful moral compass and I do think that at a time when we look on Israel like we're hard on these really government a lot. I will tell you had a conversation for one of my projects recently with activists in Russia and I kinda I asked the activists in what makes you hopeful in kind of dark way. He said well. I know that I'm Jewish. I know that if it really gets bad I can go to Israel. We don't use a powerful reminder to me of again put aside our criticism of government like the the achievement of having a state where the Jewish people have. That kind of safe is something to be protected at the same time you see this nationalism. Semitism as part of the nationalism from people like trump and people like Viktor Orban that has bad. Echoes of history. Too and so. It's not a bad time as world reflecting back and look at the kind of moral example of the Elliott walls of this world to remind ourselves of of what what human beings can do when they get Completely wrong and what they can do coming out of that. Yeah I told you. I've been reading rising kill I By Ronen Bergman. It's a great book about the history of of targeted assassination among These really government and it. Is You know drive home to you. How important it was to all of these individuals to have a state given what had happened. And how recent that history isn't how drove policy decisions for better for worse. I thinking about that trip with Obama and Merkel in Elis Alley. It gives me chills and really think about that whole generation. I mean my my grandfather was in the OS. Asan was you know doing Intel. My uncle was shot down over Germany and spent the rest of the war in a in a prison camp. Basically he wrote a book about it says wild things should look back to those look back to those times about what it was worse arguably recently. Yeah no I mean you know. We didn't know my family emigrated pretty early. So it's not like they came in the thirties or something but there was still this big family like back in Poland in Germany and my mother has this old black and white photo of her. You know her grandfather or somebody in your family at a reunion in Europe with this dozens of Jews in in my family and we don't really know them you know and I so I couldn't even identify who they are in the photo but you know when you're looking at this. What happened to them and I have that. I've always had that photo very much in my mind and I do think that the Holocaust it's interesting. It was such a catastrophic failure of human beings that in a way. I've actually been thinking about this a lot. I it kind of shocked the world into trying to not do that again. You know And so a lot of the infrastructure set up after World War Two the UN. All these things that we've been talking about the success and failure of this international order was set up to prevent another war another Holocaust and part of what worries me about the moment. We're in his. It's now seventy five years. You know the that generation is passing and we may have forgotten the freshness of how bad things can get so. I think you're right that we should look to the generation of your grandfather. And and the people who you know Obama's great uncle and Ellie result on Americal people who've who've sought to rectify the the the wounds of the past by not repeating them agreed yellow deep there. But you know look at it as it's a good reminder that all of our our country our world has been through a lot very recently. Maybe gives us a little perspective? Yes that You know podcasting from home. Not The worst thing that's ever happened to me so Slightly different story here so Ben. Our listeners might have been confused this week when they saw headlines reporting that the price of oil had become negative negative. Thirty seven dollars and sixty three cents to be exact. You might ask. Why would anyone pay me to to take their oil and the answer is a combination of a bad economy? A supply glut a lack of storage. And how it's traded so we try to explain this for you. A little background for so consumption of oil is obviously way down because of the pandemic because of the resulting economic shutdown. No one's driving. Nobody's flying factors or closed etc on top of that and we've talked about this on the show before in early. March the Saudis and the Russians. They broke a long-standing agreement to limit the production of oil that was able to keep the price pretty constant and so both the OPEC countries and the Russians. They ramped up supply and just started like drilling tons more oil. That was a price war. We've talked about so as demand is crashing the supplies increasing after about a month the Saudis and the Russian realize. This is a very bad time to have this. Fight trump intervened. He tried to referee in in Brixham Agreement. Where the US also cut production but the damage was basically done in the near term in terms of the market being flooded with US oil. So that gets us to Monday and then we have to talk about how oil is traded in. So what we're talking about. We talk about the negative price for a barrel of oil is a futures contract on a May barrel of West Texas intermediate crude oil so oil is traded in this very complicated hedged way. I can buy contracts for delivery of a barrel of oil for like several months from now to hedge against price increase. Or what have you so if you own a May futures contract right now. This week you either have to accept the physical delivery of that barrel of oil or sell it and that's how you get to a negative price like a lot of people buying and selling oil or just traitors infrastructure structure at actually do anything with it and as a country in the world we are literally running out of places to put the oil one of the main. Us storage locations is in Oklahoma. It is estimated to be completely full and may traders rent. These massive tankers called. Vlc's that can hold up to two million barrels of oil for temporary storage but these things cost like one hundred grand a day so you try to rent them for a little time as possible or else you could end up losing money on the deal and so because most economists and oil traders expect that the economy will pick up over the next couple of months in demand will increase a barrel of oil contract for June. Barrel is actually like fifteen bucks twenty bucks but the. May Oil is negative so very confusing but the gist. Is this just shows how much this pandemic has collapsed economic activity? How deep the shock is going to be to our economy and the big risk here which trump clearly knows. Because he's talking about this. Is that if the price stays really like under twenty bucks a barrel. A huge percentage of US oil companies maybe eighty percent by some estimates will just go bankrupt like they cannot produce oil at a rate that can be profitable for them and so you. Hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs so today I saw him tweeting about how the US might making big purchases of oil for the Strategic Petroleum Reserve You might hear talk about a bailout but man like this really drove home to me Just how brutal. The economic damage from this shutdown of the economy has been well. The good news is that the three people who have the most Agency on this issue are Mohammed bin Salman Putin Donald trump great. So that makes me feel really confident about this. I also think I was thinking about this last night sitting in quarantine here and just thinking that you know this this whole pandemic in interesting ways revealing things that were already broken about our society and how our world works. We talked about the thing I wrote about nine. Eleven in our overwhelming focused on terrorism. I think another thing is. There's just something wrong with a world in a global economy that is hurtling towards a climate change future. That has this much oriel being produced like basically to deal with climate change. We should be reorienting. The entire global economy to run on things other than fossil fuels. And instead of doing that. It's kind of a symbol of how much we're not doing that. That independent there's literally more oil than people can store or do something with because consumption is down. I mean no. There should not be bailouts of fossil fuel companies. Like did why the reason we have this glut in a way because of how much fossil fuel companies have had special privileges from governments. Like what we need to do is get to a place where this is not the the lifeblood of the global economy since the bigger point in the short term. Yeah you you're GONNA see shocks. I wonder what this does for like Vladimir Putin who who served to power in part because oil prices were so high that the coffers were full in Russia and he could kind of spread the money around. I think you know there's serious questions about what kind Russian economy there is on the back end of this and and how he's GonNa Manage through that and we've talked a little bit about how that might be to other provocations so I think there could be geopolitical. A fall out that flows from an during periods of low oil prices. They're also I think should be yet another wakeup call that you know. It's time to get onto some new forms of energy here because the next pandemic that is coming towards us this climate change you know. We know what the science tells us. We know what the results will be. We don't prepare and we're preparing. Yeah we we need to create a new form of renewable energy that we produce here so not dependent on any foreign countries ever again and we need to figure out real fast because this is lovely. I don't want to be pen on the Saudis. Yeah and what's interesting? Tom Is know in a way. This massive boom in US production again. You know some of the happened under Obama with fracking made people feel like Oh. This means that we're not dependent on foreign oil. Well yes and no. Because these giant producers Saudi Arabia and Russia can still mess with our economy. You know they can still mess with people's jobs in this country. They can still hold us over a barrel to to use the obvious pun. I think suggested a more durable sustainable model for job creation is not in fossil fuels. It's in transition different energies. Yeah WanNa Watch for sure. Here's another pretty amazing story. That popped up overnight so late Monday. Cnn reported that the US is monitoring intelligence that suggests North Korean leader. Kim Jong UN is in grave danger after a surgery of some sort The source on this story was a US official with direct knowledge of Said Intelligence. So if true. It's quite a scoop. It's obviously still far from confirmed Some other countries are knocking down this theory. The South Korean News Outlet reported that Kim is receiving treatment after undergoing heart surgery last month. So it's hard like you know. We talked about this with sector bright. It's very hard to get any good news or intelligence at North Korea close to impossible so experts spent all this time examining state news outlets for clues basically and and there's a big one here. Which is that on April Fifteenth Kim Jong An missed a celebration of his grandfather late grandfather's Camiel songs birthday which is the biggest event of the year North Korea. By far there's fireworks song and dance events like competitions. The kilt kindle song is revered like a God because he's the country's founder so Kim Jong UN missing. This event was more than a little conspicuous observers. Note that that his health has been a question for a while he disappeared for months. Back in two thousand fourteen for six weeks. He reemerged with a limp And fifth year old. Who's a fantastic report at the Washington Post reported that Experts think Kim Jong is five seven three hundred pounds. He's a smoker. So not a healthy guy So ben I mean. Kim Doesn't have a successor that we know of with. His sister started floating around and doing more stuff. There's all these generals who you know. We don't know what they do. But I don't believe the country has a standard linus accession. It's this cult of personality. Do you care to wildly speculate. On what Kim Jong UN's departure might mean and and what could come next? Yeah well first of all I think we have to take this with a low dose of caution. A lot of these reports had like a single. Us intelligence source and in twenty fourteen. We never really knew what happened to him. I think what what's going on here is as you say. He's like three hundred pounds and smokes and I think he probably has some other habits. That aren't good for him and he disappears and people start. Speculating I if there is a succession issue. I think it. Would you know any succession in that country even as the succession to Kim Jong UN? Who is in the family line led to purchase and increase provocations? You know in a lot of blood leading you. You have a situation where you have a sister who's taken a more prominent role and is really. The only member of the family could up the mantle. Kim killed his brother and doesn't have a child. You know who can step in and and yet this is a very patriarchal country very male dominated country and so then you've got this kind of generals he's got a he's got a number two guy and you could see like you know some jocking some competition because on the one end for to not stay in the family would go against everything about this country. This country exist as a cult of personality around this one family. And it's gone from the grandfather to Kim Jong Il Kim Jong UN and so for to leave the family I think would open up a Pandora's box of competition. But whether the the the the male dominated hierarchy there would accept a woman is an open question so I think in any event if there's a succession crisis it is likely to bring about some bloodletting some competition. Some jockeying probably more likely a degree of competition perhaps flows of refugees into China into South Korea. So hard to manage those situations where you can young on. It's not that he's a great guy just said we don't know there's an uncertainty with what comes next. Senate would probably be at least in the short run a bumpy ride but but I would take these reports with a grain of salt until we we see anything more definitive big assault single-source to US official monitoring intelligence that suggests is You know it's not not entirely locked down. And that's not a criticism. The reporter is just hard to get information out of their trump would have to find somebody new to send letters to but that's a whole their whole their story. So one corona virus story that I think we should talk about this week was the World Food Program estimates that the pandemic is going to double the number of people facing acute hunger. This year They estimate that around two hundred sixty five million people in low and middle income nations could face starvation by the end of two thousand twenty. That's double the twenty nine hundred number. That's not because of the corona virus. It's a confluence of factors like conflict and famine in climate change. But I just think it's again important to keep in mind. That is hard as this is for people in the US. These crises tend to impact poor countries even worse. And you know at some point when we're reasonably close to feeling like we've we've managed the crisis at home donor. Countries are GONNA have to step up to prevent a horrific humanitarian outcome one but also to try to prevent more economic In political crisis is in in places like Africa wars from breaking out right. I mean like these events tend to spiral into Worst and worst scenarios if left unchecked. Yeah I think that this is a space to watch in terms of how this plays out in the most vulnerable communities in the world. I checked in a few days ago with a friend of the pod czar towns. I talk about Afghanistan. And you she has this. Ngo The refugees and Gee said people don't even know what's happening in refugee camps. There's just there's no visibility like a lot of the aid. Workers had to leave because people were pulled out and so some of these places. It's a black box of people. Don't even know what is happening in these camps. I you know you look at a country is talking to someone. The other day works in South Sudan. And there's less in two hundred doctors in south Sudan right and and at the same time donor. Money whether it's international it's governments or international organizations or private individuals is is drying up for things like refugees or famine because you know understandably people or giving in their own countries again so if you're the US suspending two trillion dollars to prop up our own economy. Wealthy individuals are probably donating for combating the corona virus in their countries. And so. I think there's going to be this double shock where vulnerable communities that are that that are at risk of famine or risk of public health. Collapse already are GONNA get hit by that at the same time that there's going to be less funding for them and so as we climb out of this thing. I don't know how you begin to try to make that whole the. Us government is going to have very little money to work with you know when Obama came into office. We had a promise in our campaign to double foreign assistance and as soon as the financial crisis happened we re scrapped that promise because we knew we were going to be running a trillion dollar deficit. And we're GONNA have to be you know tr- trying to prop up the US economy. And so I think it's GonNa take wealthy individuals who have plenty of money frankly and other creative sources of funding to make sure that some of these places don't go off a cliff and it bears watching. 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It's an educational and inspirational journey. That looks back at five moment of historic levels of crisis and trying times in American history. Each of which we were able to overcome together as a nation some of those events are the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic the Great Depression World War. Two the polio epidemic in the Cuban missile crisis notable guessing. This documentary series include doors. Kerns Goodwin Walter Isaacson Eric Larsen and many more award winning and bestselling authors and historians season. One of hope through history with Jon. Meacham is available now on apple podcasts. Spotify RADIO DOT COM. And wherever you listen to your podcasts. Okay one of the thing that bears watching Hong Kong so we spend a lot of time last year covering the incredibly brave protest movement in Hong Kong obviously now because of the virus. It's no longer safe to take to the streets. You're not seeing protesters but the Chinese government is cynically using as cover for to increase their efforts crush pro-democracy efforts in Hong Kong basically so Hong Kong authorities recently arrested more than a dozen pro democracy activists and then the Chinese government There'd be increasingly assertive about what they believe is their right to supervising quotes the city to weigh in on these political matters to publicly come out and supported these arrests And they are undercutting the semi autonomous nature of Hong Kong's government and they're blaming the US for the protest movement rights. Like the typical playbook. So Ben Could you just remind listeners? Of How the Hong Kong government works in relation to China and why the rest of these activists is seen as such a big deal. Yes so the Hong Kong is supposed to have one country two systems so it's a part of China but it has its own system with civil liberties in its own legal system importantly for the People Hong Kong and they had their own government their own Hong Kong Governing Authority that has a legislative chamber in a Chief Executive. China had already chipped away at essentially the democracy. That Hong Kongers believe that they're entitled to Hundred one-country-two-systems because for instance China gets to pick who they can vote for to be chief executive and I think the reason this is so important. Is You know you had this momentum through the protest movement that was able to be back some some laws particularly law allow trying to extradite people the Hong Kong And the sense that democracy camp was gaining strength. There were local elections in December for relatively powerless body of District Council members. Who deal with kind of concerns like traffic and things in neighborhoods and overwhelmingly. The result went to people who in the pro-democracy camp and now you have a protest or not happening in the same manner that they were and there's a legislative election in the fall that a chance for the pro democracy camp actually try to acquire some meaningful power. And I think there's a sense at with the world's attention elsewhere with people not able to turn out in the street that they can deploy playbook that is a combination of chipping away at the autonomy of Hong Kong so giving more power to the Chinese government to control events in Hong Kong. There's something called the Liaison Office for the Chinese Communist Party in Hong Kong that is grown increasingly powerful relative to the Hong Kong government and so they've been granted some additional powers some efforts to mess around with Hong Kong's basic laws. So that brought more in line with the Chinese Communist. Party's view of things should go and also to try to decapitate some of the leadership of these movements through these detentions and so they've been arresting not just some of the young people who've been protesting but some of the older people who are established political figures and pro-democracy figures perhaps to just kind of shaped the environment coming out of Corona virus heading those legislative elections and so definitely feels to me like the Chinese Communist. Party is going on offense in this in this moment. In a very cynical way to try to demoralize in some ways decapitate the pro democracy camp in the country that literally but through detention and harassment while also getting back to chipping away at Hong Kong's legal autonomy. And so you know I think what I would look for is if and when life can return to normal is there another explosion of momentum for the protest movement or does China kind of slowly demoralized in strangle that movement. My sense is that they'll be another explosion of momentum in reaction to what China's doing but you know I it's another example of We just don't know how long this will will endure in terms of you know life now between your normal and and what these governments can do in the meantime to give themselves greater power and leverage. Yeah that's exactly. Look just just one note. On some data I saw out of China So who province where? Wuhan is located. Epicenter this outbreak. They released an economic data showing that the economy in that region shrank forty percent in the first three months of two thousand twenty compared to a year ago so I just thought that that was an interesting indicator of how much economic pain. A lot of countries will probably end up finding that they have dealt with. I also saw that. China's handing out cash in the form of these shopping coupons in an effort to help out retailers. But according to this Reuters report is not really working. People are spending on necessities. We're not going to restaurants or not doing the tourist activities luxury items and so you know. It's probably foolish to compare consumer spending trends across countries like I don't know how Chinese citizens spend their money typically but I do think it's like another data point that shows the whole world is deeper. It's GonNa take longer to bounce back even with government stimulus so this thing is going to play out over longtime. Yeah and we're probably GONNA have. Let's say not a very nuanced discussion of China in this country and our politics for the next six months with trump yelling about the China virus and blaming China. For all this kind of apocalyptic rhetoric and conspiracy theories that this is a bio weapon and your Biden hitting back and being tough on China. But it's all in the context of this virus. We have a bigger conversation that we do need to have as a country about what our view of the Chinese Communist Party is. And how do we both work with them when we can but stand up for our values and places like Hong Kong incentive for interest when they're pushing people around and I do think that China's going to emerge everybody like us to with some real vulnerabilities? I think some other countries are resentful about how they've handled this. I think there is a sense that Jesus paying the Communist Party under him pushed too far and people's comfort zones so when we come out of this and if we come out of an election and we can spend some more time future upsets talking about this. I think that there needs to be real thoughtful reconsideration of what the. Us view of China's should be the gets beyond trump's demagoguery or biden defending himself to some of these core questions a few more quick things here so there is this debate in the US. Congress about how lawmakers could meet remotely apparently according to politico this morning lawmakers are trying to negotiate a way to do proxy voting where a lawmaker can vote on another's behalf. But it's not there yet but I WANNA raise that. I saw that lawmakers in the UK are now meeting virtually so the House of Commons with fifty six hundred and fifty members of parliament physically in the chamber. The rest were basically zoomed in. We're doing what we're doing right now. Is obviously an imperfect solution. Hope they don't get zoom bombed. They also haven't figured out a way to vote on legislation. So that part's on hold. But you know this. Api story also notes that lawmakers in Germany and Poland or meeting with social distancing measures Canada's doing a mix of digital and in person meetings in Lebanon lawmakers are meeting in a big theater to allow for appropriate space. So I just was like you know. Look if a seven hundred year old institution in the UK can find a way to modernize for God's sake the US Congress should be able to. I'm just so floored that there wasn't already planned for this in Congress. You know absurd. It's absurd that that that the with all the threats of cyber attacks or something that that. Nobody had thought through kind of contingency plans. I do think it's important though. Because you know we our country that is already kind of rattled by all this Some other big event on top of this one and so this is something where there should be a fix p. They're going to have to be able to move swiftly under any circumstance given the pace of things are going if another crisis emerges on top of this crisis. How are we GONNA handle that? So this is something. They gotta get their act together. Yeah we talked about this with a Secretary Albright but I just want to briefly raise with you so on Monday night. Trump tweeted that he plans to issue an executive order temporarily suspending immigration into the United States. Like no big deal. Oh Hey tweet this out. He cites a corona virus. They need to protect American jobs. As the rationale immigration all ground to a halt already by trump and Stephen Miller and their efforts and political asylum in restrict travel and other bureaucratic steps. The State Department as a practical matter hasn't been processing visas for weeks because of Cove Ed so the Times in. Your Times reported that. A formal order Temporarily barring new green cards work visas could come. In the next few days it would likely be coupled with an expansion of these travel restrictions. So this is no surprise to me. You shouldn't be to anyone like trump's Main political strategy is demagoguing immigrants. Xenophobia is like a core Republican strategy. But you know he'll get contested in court. I guess just like the thing. I was thinking aloud to myself to play devil's advocate for a second. Is I assume that any long-term Corona virus mitigation plan is going to have to be coupled with a pretty intensive restriction on international travel right because we can't get our house in order with testing and everything here and then allow people just to fly in and out of the country. If they're not doing it in those places so I don't know what that would mean could be in quarantine upon arrival or some other ways short ending immigration entirely. But I'm just like trying to think through in my head what the new normal might be for just purely medical reasons. While I obviously find the way trump tweets imigrants to be disgusting and probably illegal. Well I think your last point there Tommy the first thing about this. It doesn't make sense as more people come to this country just traveling to this country than because they're emigrating to this country exactly so if there's a problem that has to be solved it's basically. How do you resume the international travel? That is the lifeblood of the economy and that takes place in numbers absolutely dwarfs immigration to this country. And you know in past situations in a bola you know there was screening at certain. Airports people can countries. I mean you've already seen in this case. I think Singapore has done quarantine at airports for a period of time. You could do testing. But that's about travel and words me here is that you know you take a step in a crisis and just because it's political doesn't mean he doesn't believe in it and might not want to fall in it we've already seen them chip away at nearly zeroing out the number of refugees trying to eliminate asylum as a tool for people to come here trying to think foreign students from coming here and now you know perhaps just ending immigration if he's re-elected who's to say what the new normal is that emerge on the other endocrine virus and a angles to that apart from the horror of changing who we are as a country which is a country built by immigrants changing the fact that we benefit from the best and brightest coming here. You know it's funny. This guy likes rail about China in trump. Where like these people are. GonNa go to study the China. All these foreign students engineers and people who come to live and work here and study here in some state and started companies and some of them went back to their countries and became you know the leaders of their countries and had good feelings with us. They're not gonNA come here anymore. And and so it's GonNa have a impact on us that way too so i. It's not the right instrument for dealing with the Toronto virus dealing with testing as much more important than suspending immigration managing travel flows is much more consequential than just suspending immigration and. I worry that even if it's just kind of a symbolic political step in a way given the there's not a lot of incoming anyway right now. What is the norm on the back end and so to me as soon as I thought saw it? I just thought well. This is the stake in our election. Because if he's reelected you know God knows if we ever return to normal levels of emigration. Yeah that's exactly right and it's also Unfortunately probably the fight that he wants because he would rather be able to demagogue Mexican citizens or whomever. Dan Actually talk about his response. But we'll see how the the political fight plays out and and to that end Ben so the group you help found national security action. Us Did some interesting polling this week. on a key swing state so. I think twelve hundred voters in twelve battleground states and some of the numbers that jumped out at me from the report. You guys did so. Voters disapprove of trump's handling of relations with other countries by a fourteen point margin by twenty two point margin voters think he has increased the risk of getting the US into a war Fifty six percent thing trump has made us less respected a plurality. He's made us less safe. Seventy percent Nearly seventy percent said they prefer to President who emphasized diplomacy over military strength Goes also tested to messaging like You know some of the most effective messaging against trump was that he refuses to listen experts. That were less respected in the world because world leader. Don't take him seriously and that. His behavior like the recklessness. The IMPULSIVENESS RAISES THE RISK OF WAR. Looking at the poll in sort of all the conversations. You've had about it. Like what did it teach you about? How the electorate views trump when it comes to foreign policy national security and how Joe Biden might run against him in the most effective way. Yeah so we were out and we intentionally did this. We've done polls before that were nationwide. But because reading under presidential election we really focused on just the battleground states to have this be most relevant and I think what jumped out to me and I should add. This was done kind of right. Before social distancing so corona virus was the thing but it wasn't the dominant thing which in a way I think is useful because it was a snapshot of where the electric was as we headed into. This part. What stood out to me. Is You know voters did say that. Standing up for American values matter to them and a healthy majority. They feel that trump doesn't do that but they also feel like he's not even taken seriously around the world you know there's a sense that not only do we not stand for the things that we used to stand for but that we're kind of an embarrassment this guy's just not taken seriously and so I think the opening for Biden is that core message of we need to be for the things that Americans have stood for throughout our history and we need to be respected in the world again which is the basic message with one. He can drive. I think another thing that stood out to me is that people understood in. This gets the point that they're worried about him getting us into a war that he's reckless like with the language that voters kept using the messages that they responded to in this poll were around the fact. That trump is reckless. He doesn't to experts as you said. I think fit for Biden connecting the things that voters already think to be true about trump to his corona virus response is really important right and so people were already inclined to think that this guy is a little too reckless with our security inclined to think that he just listened to the experts in the room. And you have to take that thing that they know to be true about trump and say this is why they're not test. This is why we were behind the curve on the corner virus. This is why he's made us less safe in his handling of the corona virus. Think a couple of the things that jumped out to me where he had a slight advantage is on the sense of of national security that he could be trusted to deal with our national security. Interestingly Foreign Relations he scored much worse than national security. And I think that's a window into how much trump has securitized the debate around immigration and just being belligerent is still a slight advantage. Republicans on issues like terrorism. But I think with the coronavirus. Democrats have to make the argument. Joe Biden estimate. The argument that this is about keeping safe to the national security isn't just about terrorism or building a wall at the border. It's about are we preparing to deal with. Pandemics had come to our borders to so in a way there has to be a changing of the frame around national security. One other thing that. I'll just highlight Tom. Because it stood out to me because we talked about on this podcast there was very real concern in the testing with the way trump is politicized the military and the ways in which he has gone against Traditions respecting the role. The community vis-a-vis the uniform military interfering the chain of command the disrespect at times for uniformed officers. That may be an opening. The Democrats don't necessarily fully appreciate. They have that this guy. You know if you're talking about two veterans if you're talking to base communities the way which this guy has broken all kinds of norms and look that trump fans there will be fine with it but the sense. I get from this polling is. There's a very real concern that he's just not handling the job of commander in chief appropriately and I think that's an argument that Joe Biden can make to. You know that that that that this guy's betraying the tradition of how the commander-in-chief functions vis-a-vis the military both and how politicized them and how he's kind of interfered some of these chain of command issues. Yeah I mean look the story a captain Crozier and I think the US Theodore Roosevelt and how disastrously the navy handled a crisis of like hundreds if not thousands by now of sailors getting sick on that boat. One of them actually dying. Probably a pretty good Understandable Story to tell about the problem of trump. Just like Willy. Nilly interfering into the the military justin. Yeah and people understand that you know obviously especially veterans and people in base communities but I think Americans understand that. That's troubling you know and I haven't heard the Democrats make that argument. I haven't heard Joe Biden. Make that argument. But I think it's very given how much respect people have for the institution of the military. I think that's that's an argument to make that that. Essentially this guy is unfit to be commander in chief. And he's betrayed. You know the sense of values and decorum that we expect an commander-in-chief yeah agreed okay. That's it for the news but stick around because after the break we're going to talk with former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright positive. The world is brought to you by. Hbo's Bad Education. The critically acclaimed HBO film. Data Education Stars Academy Award nominee. Hugh Jackman have you heard of him? I have oh yeah we'll veran. Oh Yeah super ripped and Academy Award winner. Allison Janney how? They mentioned that she went to Kenyon College. My Alma Mater which often beats John Fabric Rose Alma Mater on the US News Notre Dame college rankings. We're hovering that thirty two thirty three the top anyway so Jackman Johnny Play Long Island. School director supervisors who find themselves at the center of a major scandal. It's based on actual events. 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So listen again. I have already re upped my athletic Greens purchase. They sent me a Freebie pack. I went through it. It's great it tastes good. It gives me all the vitamins I need. I felt a little more energetic little pep in my step in. Don't even get me started on that gut health. That's why I like Greens. I WanNa get you started. Tell us more about your health. It's like a nineteen sixties. Midtown Manhattan pneumatic tube system over there. Wow even with a balanced diet. It is difficult to cover all of your nutritional basis. That's where athletic. Greens can help their daily drink. Nutritional insurance for your body that's delivered straight to your door. It has developed from a complex blend of seventy-five vitamins minerals and whole food source ingredients. Athletic Greens is a green powder engineer to fill the nutritional gaps in your diet. Their daily drink improves your everyday performance. By addressing the four pillars of health energy recovery gut health and immune support athletic. Greens was developed by former professional. Rugby player is part of the daily nutrition regimen for thousands of high-performance professional athletes worldwide including USA cycling. So whether you're looking to boost your energy levels support your immune system or address that all important gut. Health now is the time to try athletic. Greens for Yourself goto athletic. Greens dot Com backslash crooked to claim our special offer for twenty free daily travel packs with your first purchase that Z. Seventy nine dollars added value with a great deal again athletic. Greens dot COM backslash crooked. Just give it a shot. It's really good. We are thrilled to be joined now. By a former secretary of state former ambassador to the United Nations and author of the New Book Hell and other destinations a twenty-first-century memoir Madeleine Albright. Thank you so much for joining the show to be with you thank you. Could you start with some breaking news? So there's been some reporting overnight and this week that North Korea's leader Kim Jong UN might be gravely ill. He might be recovering from surgery. It might all be wrong. Who knows since? It's so hard to get information out of that country. But it's so great to speak with you because you are one of the few human beings I've ever met. Who's been to North Korea and I wonder if we could just there and you may be tell listeners. A little bit about what that experience was like. And whether you know you have a sense of what? A leadership transition might look like out of North Korea or if that's one of those black box components of their leadership that we just don't know yet. Well I think you really hit the story on them the nail here because basically we didn't know very much about North Korea and that's the whole problem because we have no embassy there Nobody on the ground We had to operate to those that were telling us something. I may be some South Koreans or whatever and what happened. Was that when I went there? Initially the this Kim Jong UN's father was the head of Kim. Jong you and I was told basically that he was crazy. And a pervert I talked to Kim Dijon the president of South Korea and then I went there myself. He clearly wasn't crazy But there were some weird things that went on in terms of When I got there I just sat in the guest house because I had no idea what I was supposed to do. And I knew that they were thing to me And taping me and then I didn't know at the time though I was told that when you type on a laptop they can just tell by the strokes. What you're doing separate early. We sat there. And then I get a call saying I had to go to see his embalmed father Which is harder and more complicated than it looks? Because if you DAB bow too low then the American press says you're being obsequious if you don't low enough you haven't accomplished anything so the right angle. Because when I got back to the guest taps they said the dear leader will see you so we have a press conference which was like something out of the fifties and Kim Jong Il and I were the same height so I look over and I know I had on high heels and so did he and his hair was allowed. Croupier THAN MINE. And and it was a pretty crazy press conference now the only thing we did know therefore I take complete responsibility for Dennis Rodman because we knew. Was that Kim. Jong Il like basketball so I took over a basketball autographed by Michael Jordan. Which is in their holy of holies. But the bottom line is that we don't have we didn't have the in much information then and we have no information now about what's going on because Not having any representation. I think we don't know what will happen. because The question is how is this even decided? There had been some discussion of some Succession when Kim Jong Il was still alive but I've been trying to follow this today and I think that we don't know you know and conjunction has a sister who's been doing a lot of talking But we don't know and so given all the things that are going on it makes it very difficult when we have no is on the ground so I wanted to ask you one of the things. That's so interesting about your book. A characteristically is a great both entertaining and motivating read. Is You know you've had this career in public life. And then you know continuing to public figure after leaving the State Department and you've really been at the center of. I think the effort to connect kind of America's standing in the world what we represent the values. We advocate for the relationships. We build abroad to make that relevant for people to relevant to our foreign policy and how Americans think about the world and I ended up crossing. Hasn't some of those initials and the Obama years where you're always pressing us to do more in that space and I'm wondering just how you reflect on where America's standing today with a president trump kind of vacating his leadership role and also setting very different example than past American presidents. Have set you. How how. How deep is a loss in terms of America's standing what we represent in the world and and? What might we do to try to recover that? Thanks for asking that but what I WANNA do is put it into a little bit of context because one of the things that I always say is People are Very much a product of their backgrounds and The intelligence agencies provide product. But the decision maker is the customer. And You bring your own story with it. So in my case I think people may know I'm an immigrant on I My father was a Czechoslovak Matt. Spent World War Two in London. I write about this in the book and then I came to the United States when I was eleven years old after the Communists took over Czechoslovakia and I have grown up with the idea that the United States is the most important country in terms of determining what policy is like that when the US is not present. Terrible things happen And when we are present things change so I mean that's a short way of describing it but I really. I'm very grateful American. And so one of the incredible things about my life is. It never occurred to me that I would someday sit behind a sign that said United States I at the United Nations and then as secretary of state recognizing the power that the United States had and what should be done with it in a very Kind of nebulous situation in my case after the end of the Cold War so And as you know President Clinton is the first one who said that we were the indispensible nation. I just said it so often that it became identified with me. But there's nothing about the word indispensable that says alone. It just means that we need to be engaged. And so I believe in American engagement in The world in a positive way with partners. And so I am. I don't even know what the right words anymore. Deeply troubled is is too mild In terms of what is going on. Now we're a wall And I think we can see that. Not only are we able what? We're blaming everybody else for what is going on and so. I think it's an irresponsible way to approach Foreign Policy And so I am very troubled. I was a for instance a perfect example. And I think you've been been to the Munich security conference and basically they were making. We've we were playing a row. I mean this came in and kind of was like somebody from another planet and they are just kind of looking at us. Like what are you talking about? And I think that's dangerous for America and has certainly dangerous in terms of dealing not only with pandemic But with the other issues nuclear proliferation and Issues of climate change and military relationships or lack of with all kinds of countries. So I think this is not a good time in terms of how we are viewed in the world and I wanted to get it. There's the the absence in solving problems as you mentioned. There's also that example and your your own story. You've done such a remarkable job in your books of connecting your story as someone who came to this country as you just said with your service to this country and we heard just yesterday president trump announced via twitter that he was suspending all immigration into the United States. That obscene comes. After efforts to cut the numbers of refugees. You could come here as low as possible to limit asylum. Wha what is that for you personally? What is the impact of a President? Taking these steps. And and how should American sing about how those things are received around the world beyond our foreign policy to have someone suspending immigration trying to limit or eliminate refugees? What does that do to how people around the world think about US? And how people like you who came to this country because of our openness. How do you think about that? I actually think it's un-american in so many ways and I've said in shorthand that the Statue of Liberty is weeping I am A. I was asked a recently to describe myself in six words and I said worried optimist problem-solver grateful American and I am grateful American. Because who knows what would have happened to us My father was tried an essential in Czechoslovakia You know and After the Communists took over. But a speculating about that is not as interesting as the life that I've been given and which is why I am grateful and I do think that what is important is to understand how America can play the role of being engaged partner and understanding that We benefit from it. emily benefit wrong and and the sound self serving but basically people that have come to this country because they want to contribute and be grateful and so first of all. I do think what trump just did is kind of. It's a political action because he's already limited everything in terms of WHO's coming in and the system isn't set up to interview people or anything so it's just kind of one more Being finger in the eye and making it worse the bottom line is that there are a lot of doctors and a lot of the people that are the first responders now that are people that are emigrants And and I have to say that one of the great honors for me was when President Obama gave me the medal of freedom. And I have it in my office because I tell my American story. I have the manifest from when we came to the United States in one thousand nine hundred forty eight and it ends up with getting the Medal of freedom and one of my favorite activities is to give out naturalization certificates in the first time I did it was July fourth. Two thousand at Monticello I figured since I had Thomas Jefferson's job. I could do that. And so I give this man his naturalization certificate any walks away and he says can you believe it? I'm a refugee and I just got my naturalization certificate from the Secretary State and I couldn't help it and I went up to him and I said can you believe that a refugee is secretary state and I do think that I'm very honored grateful American and what is happening now does not make any sense on any any level at all once again for folks listening the book is Hell and other destinations twenty-first-century memoirs you can pick up a copy. Probably online was probably the best bet right now but all kinds of places the current secretary of State Mike Pompeo is a close friend of this show. Just kidding we dislike in greatly. He seems to be missing seemed to be missing in action during this crisis. Maybe that's a good thing Seeing his performance on other issues. But guess can you help listeners. Understand what what a competent secretary state could or should be doing right now to manage. What is obviously a global crisis? Well I think that it's a key role. Frankly I mean. The Secretary State is the most visible person on going abroad or having contacts with other countries to try to solve problems. I do teach a course at at George Shannon. I talk about this in the book. That that basically I think that my courses say I'd say on foreign policies just trying to get some country. Do what you want. So what are the tools? And it's called the national security toolbox. Diplomacy is the basic tool. It is the way that we talked to other countries and sometimes it's in small groups and sometimes in large groups but it is the language of one country talking to another and there are issues some very serious problems even short of the of the virus. But basically you need to be out there you need to be able to establish relationships and To a pleasant business. When you go abroad I used to say I mean you go through you know. The weather's nice and everything I like your tie But basically after the small talk you were there to say what you think and I would often say I have come a long way so I must be frank so you try to solve problems but you also talk about. What are the national interests of your country? I can see no visible sign of that going on. Maybe it is but I can't see it the part that I think is also really depressing The State Department is composed of Foreign Service officers and civil servants and people that are dedicated to the United States and they serve in different administrations. They have basically Been kind of decommissioned. Frankly because they have been on the front lines and a many people have been Ashley. Many people have left Said that he was going to go to the State Department to return a swagger. I sure can't tell And not only that. But he doesn't defend his diplomats When in fact they are summoned to go and testify and they tell the truth And then they are. Kinda put in the Doghouse so I don't understand what's going on and not in terms of an eye by the way I have to tell you. There is an excellent relationships among former secretaries of state and I do have another life that I write about. Which is I love being A. I was on Gilmore girls of parks and recreation. But I was also asked to be on a Madam Secretary and what happened recently. Was that a Colin Powell and Hillary Clinton and I were on it together and the scene was something terrible had happened in the White House. And so Taylor on his summons us and everything was scripted. But I was able to get an unscripted line in as we sat down. And I said. Isn't it nice when the current secretary state calls her predecessors to consult? We used to do that all the time. I love it I love it. So concerning trend seemingly is over the last few decades we have gone through what felt like an inexorable push towards globalization in a more connected world. There's the Internet there's air travel. There's trae global supply chains all of which binded countries together whether the leaders liked it or not trump would probably put himself in the or not categories since he's always hammering global less. But you know you saw the rise of trump. And his nationalist that we're trying to reverse that trend are you at all worried that the corona virus And the potential need to actually shut borders for health. Reasons might actually help them. Succeed in disconnecting the world and disconnecting America from the world. I'm very worried about that. Because all the blame placing. That's going on and trying to explain why we weren't doing what we were doing is meeting. The Chinese are going to have to explain what happened but we need to look at the future and have a solve this and even though a trump might be saying things the virus knows no borders now And so there is that kind of aspect of the interconnectedness because of the supply chains and a variety of other aspects to this. But I am worried about the following thing. Which is that. By the way globalization is not a four letter word. I mean it is basically just talking about the relationships that have taken place as as as a result of the potential of travel and All kinds of things But basically what it has done is is is faceless and so people want to know what their identities are which is important and fine but if my identity hates your identity then it becomes nationalism and hyper. Nationalism is very dangerous and so that is what I really wrote about in Fascism And now I see it a worse. Frankly because we have a president who somehow has to blame everything on either on a Benz boss Before or on somebody else but never taking responsibility for it and I think that That is creating this kind of sense that it's their fault. We have to nothing and I think it's very dangerous because you don't have to be a genius to figure out that this problem can not be sold without the help of others not just speak of climate change and nuclear proliferation and various other issues. That are out there. It is so counterproductive. I cannot believe that a functioning political figure is advising this kind of thing and you mentioned nationalism. You've written a lot about it in the sense that you there's been this series of movements in different countries where leaders have kind of taken that sense of dissatisfaction with Goebbels Ation and channel people to kind of more traditional form of national identity in opposition to somebody else. And that leads to these efforts to disrupt a rollback lables. Ation the other thing. I've noticed it can lead particularly to young people and we have a lot of young Westerners to this show to kind of an apathy you know. Why should I get involved and I guess in reading the thing about your book you make such a case for living kind of a full engaged in public life and trying to make a difference even after you've finished your government service. What do you to younger people who are wondering? Is it even worth caring about these things or if I want to make a difference on something? Like what America's foreign policy is I wouldn't even know where to begin beyond just voting in an election. Like what is it that has compelled you to stay engaged all these years? And how would you want your particularly younger? People listening to think about their role they play in a world in which things are not going in the direction that frankly a lot of us wanted to be going well in my case it really is my background and my gratitude but I really I look at my children. Grandchildren than my grandchildren are in the College age a group for the most part and and I think that the bottom line is that I have said we are. All beneficiaries of democracy and democracy is not a spectator for. And if you don't do something somebody else will do. Something that really Has An effect on your life that you're not gonna like and one of the things you said. What can they do beyond voting? Actually voting is very important part. I'm chairman of the Board of the National Democratic guest to 'em I have gone abroad a lot to observe elections and watch people that have never had a chance to vote stand in long lines either in the heat or the rain in order to vote and we take it for granted and and I do think that's the first part and I hope very very much that our young people go out and vote and so that part is important and then also I think understanding that there are when this is over. The younger generation is the one. That's going to have the tools to deal with the issues because I really do think that technology is going to play a very large part. We have kind of made fun of young people By saying that they spend too much time online and they don't know how to socialize or that You know they have no sense of privacy. They they tell everybody on facebook who they are and then they want to know why people know who they are But I think in many ways they will have a lot of the skills that will allow them to operate in what is going to be a completely different world. And if they don't do something then I can assure you somebody else will That will not be in their favor and they will regret it. Those are great words of advice and a fantastic place to end. The book again is Hell and other destinations twenty-first-century Memoir Secretary Albright thank you so much for your time. Thanks for your service to the country and for joining the show today. Thank you thank you so much enjoyed it very much. Thank you thanks to Secretary Albright for joining the show today. Ben One silver lining out of this Corona virus nightmare is that we might not have to shake hands anymore. Because it's not hygienic. And it's gross and it's weird and we're done with it so I did a little research in little research. I mean I would one of those click bait articles That are usually spawned conference to figure out how other countries people WANNA run some of these by you as a post interview little Easter Act for the people who stick around so into bet people greet each other sometimes by sticking out their tongue Now that might be work at a very socially distanced Level but maybe not the best idea In the Philippines young people sometimes press and older persons knuckles into their forehead clearly worse greenland France or some cheek kissing clearly out. This one might work. Thailand agrees plays palms together on the chest and sort of like a mini bow. Some Bedouin tribes rub noses as agreeing. That's a hard. No this one's great There's some parts of southern Africa where people just greet each other with like clapping. Yeah that sounds. Perfect for social distancing In culturally pretty seamless. Since we used to we clap each other Micronesia The Rock inspired just an eyebrow raise. that one might work when you when you enter the room and then my favorite was. There's a tribe in Nigeria They greet each other just by shaking their fists by their heads. Like this which feels kind of perfect and aggressive in very American I just say I was in New Zealand. The Maori the way they The indigenous peoples in New Zealand. They agreed by a kind of forehead. You put your heads together And we had this big ceremony in just in here and was there and she literally greeted every person including me with this forehead. Bump you know kind of seamlessly. I thought it was very cool. Actually but I think that probably doesn't answer the mail. I will tell you what I'm deeply against. Which is the elbow touch that. I feel like a total loser when I do that. Nama stay perfect. Frankly may be that may be the answer to all this because I always thought that was cool anyway socially distance and the rest of it so I agree. You're not shaking hands and washing your hands more. Maybe the public health benefit on the back. End here were you with the little barbecue that Joe Biden through for Katie Johnson one of our colleagues. Who left the White House when I sat next to him? It was this little group of us and I actually got forehead to forehead contact from him while he was telling a story. Yes Joe Biden actually. Did the Maui. Green I don't know if he ever met any Maori but yeah I do remember that it's funny about is on the way in. I called my shot and I said the people my car. I was like look. If I don't get it forehead to forehead greeting in a story about like some old senator. I've never heard of this. This is the bust and Lo and behold. Yeah I got this a couple of times to their intensive when he really wanted to drive home a point you know you get the forehead bump. Yeah I did not forget maybe I. I never drew the connection to the Maori. Though people should google that the Maori they have these amazing kind of dragging ceremonies to very cool very cool. Well that's all I got for this week. Good to see you and talk to you soon. Yeah Awesome Pate. The world is a product of media. Executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer Jordan Waller. It's mixed and edited by Chris. Basil Kyle Seguin is our sound engineer. Special thanks to our digital team. Allies McCone norm oconee and my low Kim who film and sheriff's odes videos every week.

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How a virus can threaten democracy

Pod Save the World

1:37:26 hr | 1 year ago

How a virus can threaten democracy

"Positive America is coming to North Carolina. Come see us live in Charlotte at the Night Theater on Sunday August twenty third during the Republican convention. I'm a little word. We'll dig into the news and what it takes for Democrats to win the twenty twenty election along with some very special guests get tickets at crooked dot com slash events. Welcome back to the world. I'm Tony I'm Ben. Rhodes then good to see all the way over there in Venice. We have a very cool show for listeners. Today that spans multiple time zones and even multiple continents and. I'm excited about so. The News. Portion of the show will be a little different. We're going to skip the The Morbid Corona virus cases death toll update. Because you can find that in a lot of places. I'm going to focus on a lot of these corona virus said Jason Issues. You're seeing around the globe. So for example like two thousand nineteen was the year of the protester. How do you keep up the momentum? If you can't gather safely or some cases legally what can we do about autocrats using their corona virus to consolidate power and stifle the press? Or even you know what do we do about our European allies who seemed to be eagerly tossing aside hard-fought-for online data privacy protections. Also talk about how you know this viruses at least temporarily defeating traditional symbols of American military might like aircraft carriers and then we have to interview so I checked in with former. Us Ambassador Israel Shapiro About the shocking news that blue and white party chief Benny. Guns is going to form a coalition with Prime Minister. Netanyahu and then Ben you just got off the phone with British Labor Party. P David Lammi. Would you guys talk about? We talked about What's gone wrong? And the British Response Corona virus which will sound somewhat familiar to the American ear And also you know in addition to just how the British parliament is functioning under some level of Corentin. We also talked about an upcoming election for New Labor Party leader and lambis very involved in that campaign and and how Corona virus might be reshaping. The future of British politics and really global politics awesome. Well enough just a blast to listen to just the voice in and of itself so I cannot wait to hear that awesome awesome. And he's got a book coming out right. Yeah we talked about that. A little bit He's got a book out now. Tribes which is I read it. It's really I mean if you WanNa dive deep into what's been happening around the world and our politics. This is a good place to start okay. Cool one quick before we get the news. The census is happening. I know a lot going on but we got to fill out our senses. It will help you. Make sure that your your district gets reputation gets funding everything. It's really important. So go to my twenty. Twenty Census Dot Gov. It takes five minutes. You'll have a huge impact on our democracy for a decade. That's my twenty. Twenty Census Dot Gov. Okay so let's start with this year. The protest story that axios Roach I thought was great. So the headline was the year of the protests. Meets the year of the lockdown. It talks about how so many of the big stories of twenty nineteen word these protest movements that was true in Hong Kong parts of Latin America the yellow vests in France in the Middle East or protest movements in most of those cases. We're talking about average citizens. During protests basically their only means of asserting some power and demanding basic rights dignity or economic help and now that tool has been taken away from them. And it's giving autocratic regimes a chance to regroup or even make protesting illegal. The one good example. That axios mentioned that I hadn't really thought about was in India readjusting weeks of horrific violence against Muslim communities so at least that stopped temporarily but I think the broader trend is true so I thought this piece was a smart observation but it's also interesting. These cases in Hong Kong and other places are like cousins of what we are dealing with here in the US. Right like we're Democrats were in. The opposition were led by probably Joe Biden and we have to figure out how to organize rally people without any of the state resources and I know that you have spent the better part of a year talking with activists all around the globe about these challenges. How concerned are day about losing protest as a tool and if people shared any best practices with you or like work arounds or digital organizing tactics that can help fill the gap. Yeah so one example. I would use his Hong Kong where you know in talking to some of the protesters there. One of the points that they made is that in addition to to street protests which have gotten most attention there was a very deliberate effort to create a culture around the protests themselves. There are songs there are videos. There are memes. There is artwork. And so there's a kind of online community that has been created in most notably. There are these massive telegram threads. I someone show me on their phone. A telegram through with over two hundred thousand people right and so. How does that work like? How do you deal with a group text? Like four of YOU GUYS. And it's overwhelming really interesting. Is that group threat is getting a lot of workout in this team? You what they do. Also they use it for direct forms of democracy and so they'll be kind of like mass boating about where the next protest would be a vehicle to share some of the songs I talked about the became kind of protest anthems. So I think there's no substitute for the fact that people are going to go to ground and they are going to lose this tool of drek mobilization and some of this building of a culture of opposition a culture of an alternative to an autocratic ruler or a problem like climate change. That's going to have to happen in people's homes and that's going to happen in online spaces like life. Is I think. One of the things that add. Tommy though is yes I think in the near term no doubt there will be The wind going out of the sales of some of these movements and there will be aggressive actions taken by autocrats to claim extra powers. But we make a big mistake by thinking that that the disruptions caused by the coronavirus are going to be resolved in six months or a year. And the the example. I'd use frankly is when the global financial crisis happened and Brock Obama got elected. It seemed like the answer to the financial crisis the swing at least in the United States towards progressive politics. When in fact you know what I found in talking to people is that the global financial crisis created a lot of the dislocations a lot of the anger that ended up fueling the right wing nationalism populism that we've seen so in other words after you get through the initial phase one of their reaction to a global cataclysmic event like that. Financial Crisis Navarre's now when protesters can come back in into the streets with all the pent up energy of the last whether it's six months or a year whatever it is coupled with the concerns about some of the actions of governments have taken you could see the pendulum swing back even harder so I think that we shouldn't render a final verdict. On what the result of the Krona viruses on on politics in different countries in the next six months or a year this is going to play out over two three four years and it may be that those types of movements come back even bigger and stronger than before or the alternative could happen and autocrats could crack down and a lot of that depends on whether there is organizing that takes place in the virtual space in the interim. Yeah then I think that long game point is really important and it's important for the protest movements and also for some of the efforts that governments are trying to put in place to seize power in the midst of this this crisis so we'll get to that more in a minute but I just wanted to do just a little you know. Look we. Don't get to have happy talk on the show. So this is what counts as it these days. This is a Washington Post headline that I thought you might enjoy It's by Jackson deal. Who is no fan of Barack Obama's foreign policy by the way never liked us but he wrote pompeo's pandemic performance ensures his place among the worst secretaries of state ever and look? I'm not happy that Mike pompeo sucks job. But I'm glad people are recognizing it and I wanted to just touch on this fantastic piece of Pie in the show to give a smile. So some of the reasons Jacksonville sites that pump so bad is that instead of rallying the international community to formulate a global corona virus response. He used this moment to just like record weird video talking shit to Iran. You talk about Pompeo Flu Afghanistan and announced cutting off aid to that country. A billion dollars worth in the midst of a crisis pompeo blocked the G. Seven from issuing a statement about the Corona Virus. Because they wouldn't agree to him calling it the Wuhan Virus Basically he said like we WANNA score. More points against Beijing is more important to us than coordinating with Britain France. Germany the UK. By the way I just saw a daily beast story that posted that suggests trump might be dropping the China Virus Wuhan Virus Bullshit because he got on the phone Xi Jinping and she told him how great he's been so you know always interesting in the last part that deal talked about was during a video summit of the g twenty Pompeo couldn't even get the Saudis to call off their oil price war despite literally letting Mohammed bin Salman get away with murder. So you know Ben like the very petty Part of my brain which is a significant chunk. Wants to frame this article and send it to the State Department for Mike but then I think about how much better off we'd be if we are like John Kerry or Hillary Clinton trying to coordinate the world and I get sad again. Well it's really amazing because like what what the hell is. Mike pompeo doing like you would think that he'd be out there. Mobilizing some international coordination around the development and distribution of a healthcare equipment. Or how we can coordinate and dealing with the global financial crisis or global recession that we're in or how are we going to try to standardize guidelines about the resumption of certain kinds of business travel? He's doing none of that. You know and in stead all we get is this kind of petty bullshit like virus and by the way. The measure of whether that succeeds shouldn't be whether Mike Pompeo gets adoring commentary in like right wing. Talk Radio Weird circles. It should be whether any other country goes along with what you're doing and the fact that there's not a single country in the world that has saying China virus or virus means that he's completely striking out. He's over two hundred and convincing other countries. Go along with this thing. And the other thing I'd say is it. Crises really do reveal who you are like everything about you is magnified in a crisis and everything about Mike Pompeo. That we've talked about on the show is he's petty. He's an ideologue. He is mean-spirited. And he's dishonest. And that's what we see. Because instead of seen krona viruses a challenge has met he sees. Coronavirus is an opportunity to kind of further. Punish these obsessions of his. So you know to impose new sanctions on Iran. Instead of lifting sanctions to save lives to impose new sanctions on Venezuela instead of lifting sanctions to save lives across the board. He's not trying to solve any problems it's like he doesn't recognize. We're in a different kind of moment here. And so he's still singing from the same songbook. That was already failing in already mean-spirited two months ago and now just ridiculous. And he's you know totally frankly irrelevant. Which is the ultimate criticism. You could make a secretary stated. Pc relevant how the world is responding to this other than being an impediment to basic things. Like A G seven statement. Yeah so one more issue just to add to the Mike. Pompeo's sucks list. That was Jackson deals list in his piece which was on Monday. North Korea said that they've lost all appetite for dialogue with the US because of POMPEO's continuous pressure on them to give up their nuclear weapons. I think they were mad. The POMPEO said that G Seven summit that the world has to be united in calling on North Korea to return to talks and he called all these countries to continue applying diplomatic and economic pressure on the North Korea. In so look in this case I almost feel bad for Pompeo because obviously the goal of the diplomacy the sanctions. All of it is to deal with North Korea's nuclear program but trump wants to be the good cop and send Kim Nice letter so they blame Pompeo for failing but what I found really annoying was pompeo lecturing the G. Seven about unity when trump has repeatedly hung Japan and South Korea to dry on North Korea policy By the way. I don't know if you saw that. North Korea is reporting that they have no cases which is just another another record in their propaganda. Bullshit take that to the bank. Yeah Yeah right right I mean it just shows you too though that like. He has certain accounts that he focuses on right like Mike. Pompeo doesn't focus on everything. He focuses on North Korea on Iran on Venezuela and by any measure. None of those problems are moving in the right direction. They're all moving in the wrong direction. Like we've been able to test now for over three years whether these approaches work and none of them are working and at a certain point like you have to measure somebody against results not just against their projection of their own greatness which is what Mike Pompeo Donald trump constant reminders of and the North Korea thing. I mean two years ago. It seemed like that was going to be the main focus of down from whole foreign policy. And that he'd be running for re election as someone saying he saw this problem. The new president solved. And it's much worse than it's ever been last week. We talked about efforts by leaders in Israel and Hungary to use the corona virus to seize more power and I talked with Dan. Shapiro about how some of the checks and balances in Israel actually worked in some of the things bb. Netanyahu is trying to do but unfortunately a Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor. Orban succeeded in now. He's basically an absolute dictator so he can now suspend whatever laws he wants. No elections can be held. He can basically imprison reporters if he doesn't like their coverage and worst of all it will be nearly impossible to undo these emergency powers because you need like two thirds of the parliament and then the president. We need to agree with it. So you know Ben this a long time coming. Orban has been slowly strangling Hungary's democracy for many years. He declared a state of emergency in two thousand fifteen to prevent refugees from entering the country in those powers are still in place. So Hungary's democracy is is dead in the question becomes. What is the international community? Do about it So I saw that the European Union says they're going to assess whether hungry new laws violate their rule of law standards Fred Kaplan at slate points out that the NATO charter basically has similar language about promoting free institutions in Kaplan argues that NATO and the you should just kick Hungary out and you know you and I have talked about this a bit with Turkey in the NATO context was a little bit different because they're buying Russian weapons but I was curious what you thought about Kaplan suggestion that for the EU for NATO to have any teeth they should boot someone like Hungary out that the e you shouldn't give Hungary a dime when they're you know have a despot ruling and that NATO should ever have to come to a place where they invoke article five income to Hungary's defense if they are dictatorship. Yeah well slight ts here. I've done it yet on this podcast. But I've been working on a book now for some time that let's just say it has a hungry section to it so. I've thought a lot of Victoria but a lot more than ever thought I would my life and this is really alarming and I think you know part of what's happening here is I think if the current trends held he very well might lose the next election. He's kind of run out of shiny objects to throw in front of the Hungarian people and I think he's trying to do now is used corona virus to avoid ever. Having to face the Hungarian people again To try to complete his project of transforming what was a democracy into a one party system under him. I do think I spent a lot of time talking to Hungarian. Opposition politicians and journalists and activists and they've been torn about whether or not institutions like the EU or NATO should essentially kick hungry out. Because what they worry about is you know. If he's kicked out of Hungary's outside the club. Then you lose any capacity defectors behavior and frankly he's tried to hedge. So for instance is not a coincidence. That the biggest Wa way. Production Center in the world isn't hungry in the West is in Hungary interesting. It's not a coincidence that Russia's building a multi-billion dollar nuclear power plant. You may have been trying to set up an economic backstop. Where if he did lose the European lifeline he could rely on Russia and China. I think that's kind of dubious though Hungry gets a lot of money from the EU for basic things like infrastructure it's a pretty good share their GP and look. If this behavior doesn't get you suspended from the European Union and from NATO then nothing will I think there has to be teeth here and and you can frame it different ways? You know you don't need to kick hungry out but you could say that you're not going to provide any you assistance to him to review his membership. What have you? But I do think. It's time to use the leverage of these institutions to try to pressure him to back down from from these actions and the EU. I think is the best position to do that. Because they transfer billions and billions of dollars to to Hungary That's a that's a serious pot that they can work with. I'd also like to see other European Political Parties. Speak out against this. You know. Hungary and Orban's parties in a group of European Center right parties that you know many of whom are not as far rightist his. They should kick him out of that group. Now is the time for people to show solidarity with the Hungarian people into shore. Bond that they're going to be consequences if he goes his path. Yeah I agree with you. Okay let's stick with you for minute because in two thousand eighteen the European Union put in place a bunch of new data privacy laws. We can debate. How stringently or effectively those rules are being implemented but the general data protection regulation or GDP are was basically designed to give users more control over their personal data on the Internet. That's very simplified version. But now I mean people are noticing and are concerned about how quickly those rules are being discarded in the name of tracking the corona virus so the EU is asking telecom companies to hand over mobile phone data to track the spread of the virus. Decentralize it so they can figure out like are are sick. People crossing borders for example Politico reported that in Brussels also drones are being deployed to enforce quarantine rules. Just really round out the like. I Am Legend. Dystopia healthcare vibe. But you know this is pervasive like telecom. Company in Norway has been sharing location data. Scientists Politico wrote that Spain Romania Slovakia and Poland of all created a version of an apt attracts patients. Germany's working on a way to aggregate. And and they claim to partially anonymous the data. So you know. They're they're basically these hunters are following the lead of China and South Korea which made infected patients download APPs that track their movements and the people that came in touch with his way to isolate the virus so of course we want governments to do whatever it takes to save lives and stop the spread of the virus but their concerns here which there's sort of two fold like first experts. Say you can't really anonymous location data. It's just too easy to pick a couple data points in reverse engineer Where you've been in second. We've talked about in other places like once he's emergency laws go into place. It is very hard to get rid of them. Take for example the Patriot. Act Right here in America. Yeah I was say that Yeah. I guess my question to you is like you know you and I have lived through this post nine eleven. Do you think there's any hope of having a rational debate about these topics when people are scared shitless and if there is like do you have thoughts on ways to message it or approach the debate politically so that people might hear both sides out. Yeah I mean I think that we all citizens need to be very tuned to what might be happening now. Hungary's the most extreme example somebody basically ending democracy because of the virus. Or that's what he claims but they're going to be a lot of things like this happen and it demands a lot of attention I would I would say. Is that measures that are taken? It should be kind of written into whatever regulatory change is made or whatever laws passed that there is a very strict in enforce time-limit associated with any emergency measures and I think the Patriot. Act is the best example. Tommy look there's a lot of stuff that never should have been in the Patriot Act. We know that now it was passed. I in a very rushed manner shortly after nine. Eleven and look if if there had been a a strict you know one year time line on everything in the Patriot Act in a requirement. That if you want to extend that you have to come back. We'd probably be quite different place right now. In terms of some of the changes that were made in terms of anti-terrorism powers. And so you know I I think a starting point is I wish that there were government said. Would you scrutinize more? What tools are really needed? And what aren't I'm sympathetic. To the idea that you want to do everything you can add a point of maximum peril. Which is where we are right now with the Corona Virus. But especially with something like this where you know that. At some point there's going to be vaccine and the far end of that seems to be eighteen months. It could be sooner then. There's no reason not to have very strict time limitations on any additional power that is granted to government to deal with this. Yeah because there's no reason to have those powers on the back end of a vaccine. Yeah I mean even to your point like I think Ron Wyden and Russ Feingold. Who were like Big Civil Libertarians? Who could you know? Raise concerns about Surveillance and intelligence put sunset provision on parts like some of the most onerous parts of the Patriot. Act that had to be re upped in five years. You know even that just creates difficult politics down the road because it's so easy for governments to say people will die if you if you don't give us these powers but you're right. I mean with something that is specifically about a virus it does seem like you could holy sunset it once a vaccine is in production. That's exactly right. I mean because we went through this with Patriot. Act with the infamous section to fifteen provision. That allowed the Metadata of all Americans be the snowden revelation and that did come up for reauthorization and it was changed On the back end of the snowden disclosures but frankly something like that in this instance. You're right like it doesn't even need to be brought up to reauthorize. It can just be sunset. It can just be said that. This is going to expire at a certain time or frankly with the development of a vaccine for the grunt ivars right And I think the Basic Principles. None of this should be permanent. Yes agreed and says we just like you? Why don't we use this moment to go to your conversation? Ben With Labor Party member David Lamey about how the U K is dealing with the corona virus in our friend Boris Johnson. I'm very pleased to be joined once again by our best British friend of the POT. David Lemme David among other things in addition to being a member. Parliament is the author of a new book. Really really great new book that I recommend it. Everybody who's listening out there. It's call tribes. How're need to belong can make or break society and David really delves into issues. It are shaping our politics and both sides of the winick here It's both personal personal story. That's incredibly Vakhidov. And you'll learn a lot about David. But it's really story for for our times so David congratulations on the book. And thanks for joining us. Thank you so much. The book was meant to be coming out at a talk could actually go into bookshop by Hayley up. It's a very very different context. Pundits definitely a context where tribalism and thinking into are kind of in a cell Made is is right so thank you. Well when asked about the book and a bit but just to start. How how are you doing? What has been the experience for you as a parliamentarian in social isolation here well like you I am at home my kids obeying unskilled my wife is hub. Various lots of emails coming in from my constituents here in north London people who are trapped overseas on desperate to combat the K. People who are really worried because they are self employed And the next having to pay the bills So dealing with that with my staf on email and on phone calls at coast the Labor Party here in the UK is about to select a new leader. I am the vice chair of his campaign. That will happen. This we can settle so d politics going on. But it's going on not in the car to empower but in the zoom or skype Cardoza cow and I destroy you know. There's been some controversy here. Members of Congress had to kind of fly back for a vote at a very important vote but there was concerned that there weren't able to conduct congressional business including boating virtually and then potentially could put people risk. How are you guys doing? Parliamentary business can can you? Can you do what you need to do through zero them as we're doing right now or is there still some view to physically go to do parliamentary business? Well Nas Week. Parliament was closed. It is on recess. It should have been closed this week but it closed early now. We were able to put through parliament. Emergency Kroto Virus Bill that gave the government all the powers. It needs piles to deal quickly with those that lose. Their life are to deal quickly with those who are following the rules. Rounds self distancing around self-isolation a whole range of pilots that the medical profession needs so we put a bill through parliament that was effectively. The last thing we did and we all meeting again until April twenty s the way which we all holding government to account is with the media way social media particularly Adam using voice when parliament resumes. There is definitely going to be an accelerated conversation about. How do parliamentary business that sinead? Because as you've seen here we've got. Boris Johnson affected by Corona. We've got a health secretary minister affecting I created a chief. Medical officer gunned down. We corona the Prime Minister's top advisor has gone down with Corona. So it's clear that we are going to have to bring the issue of sexual distancing into parliament as well and that means that we got to have to find a way to do this. Virtually and I suspect the Speaker of the House of Commons is engaged. And how that can be done as we speak so stepping back here in the US. We spent a lot of time on this podcast in other forums. Focusing on really how. Our government dropped the ball on this lost precious time when it should have been developing and deploying test and making sure that there were adequate stockpiles of certain health equipment and frankly having a president who was giving proper warning to the American people instead of essentially denying the existence of danger of this virus. What has been your sense of the British response to this. How would you rate your government's efforts over the last several weeks to prepare for this in them respond to it will let the first thing to say? Is this is a international national crisis. It's not a time to be pot as on. It's time to be putting together at is absolutely clear to me. A British people expect me to assist the government where we can pull together notwithstanding that it is clean and I think it's widespread view. We have been slow on the uptake in this country that that was this big debate in the UK because the government under Boris Johnson. We're using phrases like hood of unity. The idea that actually what we need to happen is that people get as virus. The more people get virus If you like the movie can get back to business. As usual. The Prime Minister's chief advisor dominant Cummings was quoted in The Times Sunday Times newspaper. Saying some folk GONNA die. We know that but the most important thing is the economy so that has been criticism of Boris Johnson. His team for house slow they bid in Germany that Devika Uncle with testing. You know five hundred thousand tests awake is extraordinary. We are struggling to make ten thousand tests and so the general view is whilst little putting in the same direction. We WANNA keep slow. Britain has been slow. Amiss on the testing pace is really really problematic particularly because you cannot expect frontline workers in our National Health Service doctors nurses to both be dealing with patients without the proper equipment and many of them have not had the equipment that makes sure that saints of work. I also that I have not received the testing Bat remains a very big debate. So what do you think right now? The most pressing needs as you're just looking at the next week or two here. What would you like to see the focus of the government? The Work Vince. Be Better. Well I'll deal with that but I just WanNa just WANNA wideness slightly. Because when I make a point about Boris Johnson's government here. There is a threat that connects what I've seen an hearing with Donald Trump. What I am hearing all scenario in Brazil and what age for dominate and that is there is a libertarian way off these governments. Take a sort of view that we should be rational about this. This is about freedoms that people will die. It's about economy. What's the problem? And they're always fights. I think on the right within right wing governments. That lead us to this. You know and I know that if calls the first job of any government is to keep your people sack. One person dies that's Too many so that's the big issue and Unites Countries that are dealing with this pocket. Is Nationalism at this moment I think here in the UK. The big issue is testing. Why for example the UK government rejects the offer from the European Union on procurement of ventilators. At it looks like they rejected that offer even if they could take it up because they took this view that we're leaving the European Union. So we WANNA go on our other than they've lost. James dyson the DEICING dicey Company to make new ventilators despite never made undulations before and the cost will be highest if you procure with twenty seven other European countries so ventilators like it is in the states a really big issue testing a huge issue. We got to accelerate Malecki with testing. The W eight Jones said test test. Test is your way out of this and it's hugely worried the UK US Hugely Night. Getting behind conscious light. South Korea Germany. And then of course we have to protect. Taw Of workers in the in the on national health status and working in healthcare. You've got to get the protective equipment. Because these people go down it leads to huge social so those are the three issues. I think is a stock up. Well you know you've speak about the the common shortcomings in the response in the UK and the US which are pretty striking right. Because we're two of the most advanced countries in the world and we're clearly behind Germany and South Korea and this is clearly not just a democracy authoritarianism issue where like China and respond more forcefully because there are Teheran because Germany South Korea democracies and obviously agree with you that there's something to the fact that this is kinda mix of nationalism in libertarian philosophy that you see in. Our countries makes it harder for government to respond in the crisis like this. I'm just wondering 'cause I WANNA talk about your book like How how do you see the things that she wrote about in your book reflected in? What's happening around us now? The book was about this new tribalism that we're seeing across the world. It was about the opposite of reaching across the aisle. Which was something that we were in government. You know you look forward to politicians of different stripes coming together working together and I love David Camera on the criminal justice system even though I am absolutely not a conservative What we're seeing. Is this increased. Drivers were seeing a populist. Nationalism trump the truth an expertise with seeing on the one hand. A desire corona doesn't matter how much money you've got. It doesn't matter what you're missing. Your background is a Kuroda can come get you and sadly if you're going to underline issue you're lucky or you are of a seventy continue it. Requests above all else international global leadership the kind of leadership that we saw during the crash of two thousand eight where the G. Seven the G. Twenty are pooling resources combined on that vaccine a working out strategy quickly. How shot down what we do. Wish we hash. Mi contain this dammit. None of that. None of it happened. We've had absence from the scene of the USA. Totally inward looking at a crucial time. We've had UK obsessed with Brexit and that will not wanting to offend anyone because it wants to trade deal internationally and also in looking and guess what who has changed. The China offering out to the wealth is time upside down at this. Quite frankly the only grownup in the room appears to be Angela Merkel so we had a lack of blood leadership because tribalism. They would've narrowed in width you. We had a failure to find the common ground where we know that this disease requires us to have a common. Patas and I talked about. It's not in the book. I quoted encounter culture where we're prepared to step outside the box and encountered on this. I think the other thing that I talk about in the book. A lot of course is the way which social media and technology can fuel that division and. I think that many of your listeners will see good examples. I'm very very bad. Examples of misinformation spread about the disease and west of it. So it's a cute time but we hope a price that in a way we come out of this Having established common ground you know would have. All countries are having to step into the marketplace to support those who are going to lose their job all of us now see heroes that exists in our hospitals and in our communities because of how it comes back but all of the gross selfishness and the individualism. That happens when people hold even when they're holding the most Pacino things like come toilet paper. I would agree clear. I've spent the last two days my wife trying to find a place to buy toilet paper and it's very hard. So the question here on this end is you mentioned the Labor Party selecting leader. You tell us a little bit about what you expect to happen. Why you're supporting your candidate. And frankly in this world that we're living that you've described that's also gonNA probably be dealing with some form of global recession edition pandemic you. What kind of leadership? The Labor party can offer Going forward the first thing to say is the Labor Party desperately needs incredibly and we need effective position. Democracy to haul the government's recount a kiss. Dhamma represents the fast time in really a decade Labor policies Lead instantly adds credibility with the public. He's a full Matt Director of Public Prosecutions. He has been a human rights. Ma He has been in parliament relatively short time for years. He's not he's a bit like your old boss was not someone who has many enemies. People like you answer credibility problem forensic opposition. I think what we can offer. And you'll question single something significant of coastal preoccupied with how you get through corona but I think that progressives should be deeply worried about the recession. I'm pretension to pressure could flow from this when you shop down in the way that we're seeing in the United States in the entire tube year in the tire economies of Asia. I'm afraid if that goes on for months and months of course they're going to be significant consequences financially and in that time that you do need progressive making the case for how can get through this but also the deep inequalities exist in our society I mean my my my twelve year old was asking me about what happens to the homeless during the time. Night this it was an important question. Sold suspicions arise and we have to challenge the inequalities and I think because people are seeing the importance of government stacking into cicle people. Perhaps we are now into a new place where actually some of the some of the case that we've had. This is the case that Roosevelt made for the new deal for America. It will say the Keynesian approach to economics. I think that argument now got a tremendous ground of the essay. Farris things super catalysts if unite. Will we push back to be pushed as a consequence of where we're GONNA be well? Look it's great to talk to you as always and hope you and your family stay safe and well and we look forward to following what happens in the Labor Party and hopefully we can come out of the stronger so thanks a lot. David I king and everybody should check out. tribes The new book by David as he says you can get it online now and then maybe you could support your local bookstore and pick up another popular. Get back right policy. The world is brought to you by athletic. Greens the all in one daily. Drink for better. Health and peak performance. Even with the balanced diet is difficult to cover all of your nutrition basis and that's where Athletic Greens will help you. Their daily drink is like nutritional insurance for your body that comes to your door. Pretty Damn good awesome. This morning I did too. And I'm at my peak performance right now you you've been performing above average say. 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And you know that likely contributed to the spread because there was misinformation out there Egypt revoked reporters press credentials. They denounced tweets by the New York. Times bureau chief in Cairo for citing data they didn't like Turkey. Detained Journalists South Africa passed a law making it a crime to publish this information about the corona virus. You know we've talked about Hungary. The other by Johnson. Similar things China. And you know look in the. Us less we think we're pure trump literally berates every reporter who dares to ask him a factual question about his record or statement. I wanted to raise this bs at something. I think we should watch a lot of the countries I listed. Were probably you know considered bad actors when it comes to press freedom already but I do think we need to be extra vigilant about these emergency powers restrictions on speech that could be used for political purposes. Soon yeah and I think it's troubling just on a basic level where you don't WanNa chill free press even more so what we all need right now is good information I mean. Let's think about how this is actually being fought. It's being fought in most countries by the citizens of those countries right with exceptions of places like South Korea and Germany where the governments have mounted effective responses. It's us who are social distancing. It's us who were debating what to do and what not to do and I don't know about Utah me but like I need good information about what this. This disease is to protect my children and protect people my community and I'm not getting that information from Donald Trump and his fucking press conferences right. I'm getting that information from the carefully reported work in The New York Times Washington Post not the political coverage the corona virus coverage right. And so it's actually more important than ever that we have an aggressive independent free press and everywhere. They can report on this stuff. I can actually see why there might be some additional monitoring capacity that you want to track this disease. There's no justification whatsoever to restrict restrict the free press in a circumstance. There's more and more of a need for free press and to me that just shows how much is bullshit. It gets complicated right when you start talking about like disinformation info wars talking about like selling corona virus cures but there has to be a way to carve that out. No and that's the thing is like Orban's one of his laws basically says he gets decide. What's disinformation and arrest people for it? And that's that's that's certainly not the answer and we should be cleared. The disinformation problems even in our country are largely almost one hundred percent. Not because of like it's happening in mainstream media outlets it's a social media regulatory is yeah right. Yeah it's not a question about what's being printed the newspaper. It's a question of what's being shared on facebook or what people sharing on twitter. It's a it's a challenge for these social media companies to have better disinformation policies. It's not a challenge for governments to come in and say they get to detain journalists. Who write something. They don't like yeah and it just a quick aside on that like I feel like I've been sharing lots of information on twitter about the current virus and often see replies from people that are like man would love to read this but it's behind a paywall and in while I understand that frustration and I I now like Y- The people will think that you know. Life and death information should be made available It is a good time to remember that these journalists are putting themselves at risk the institutions that pay them Need to make money too so it would be a good time to subscribe to some papers but Off My hobby horse. Well the quick and there is a lot of these outlets. Aren't big like the New York Times. Their advertising is about to take a huge hit. Right there advertising's already been cannibalized. Facebook right because people reading the stories not on the website of the outlet the reading on facebook. And so it's a time actually subscribe to magazines or to do something to try to keep journalism. What's left of it? Yeah especially your local paper. Because I don't know about you but I'm checking like what's going on in the La area so it's a good time to La Times. Yeah Yeah Okay. Let's talk about Mexico and our neighbors in Mexico or managing the krona virus. The short answer is not great. So President Andres Manuel Lopez Oprah door or on low As he's known is modeling terrible behavior he was going to political rallies for way too long. He was hugging and kissing supporters. Mean it sort of his part of his message is that we don't need a war on drugs we need like hugs instead writes very. Yeah you know look I I I respect and appreciate it. But in this context it's Mexico started limited social distancing in March late March which I guess is on par with the US. I guess probably head of them in terms of the spread of the virus getting here but it was not ideal ben to hear that on March fourteenth guns and roses headlined a two Day Music Festival in Mexico. City that sold seventy thousand tickets so Yeah so Mexico is half as many hospital beds per capita as the US Anecdotally it does not seem like people are following social distancing guidelines. That's understandable for a lot of people who don't have the choice of not working but it still means the virus to spread on top of that. The country seems to barely testing so bad trajectory here from Mexico. Disappointing personal behavior from 'em low and also not great for him to to have his behavior sound a lot like a Brazilian President. Yahya Boston Arrow. Who might have gotten the corona virus but who also told citizens recently to confront the virus like a man not a boy. That's a quote because quote. We're all GonNa die one day To our early reservation. Facebook and twitter took down some of his posts and actually stopped a livestream. Balsamo is doing halfway through because he was spreading. Dangerous Disinformation Yeah. It would have been nice if they did that. With trump saying we're GONNA have cases go down to zero. Yeah I think. Look Emily you know He. He's a leftist. But I mean he's got the same kind of populist Cult of personality that we've seen built around more frequently right wing populist In places like Brazil or places like Hungary and I think it is telling that leaders around the world right now because of this kind of trend towards big personality populist leaders. They're not well suited for these types of crises. Because it's all about them and not about what government needs to be doing for people you know and and it's a reminder that that that certain kinds of populace tactics and rallies and having yourself be the center of attention all the time The the that the problems with that aren't limited to win. It happens on the right It can happen on the to And you know you take a country like Mexico You have a lot of big cities you have. A lot of people were in close proximity to each other. You have a public health system. That is not fully equipped to deal with a certain level of outbreak. So my hope is that they well past the point of Ood. The Gene Arcand Concerts as much as I am. Glad to see you. Know guns and roses together Let's let's let's do that on the back end here because really bad they're given given the population density. Yes so Speaking of of populace leftists. This is a weird one From Venezuela on March Twenty six the US indicted Venezuelan president. Nicolas Maduro on charges of narcoterrorism in international cocaine trafficking They also announced a fifteen million dollar reward for information that leads to his arrest The indictment basically says that Madeira worked with the FARC a militia group in Colombia to facilitate large-scale drug trafficking into the US In to get the FARC military grade weapons in that this kind of behavior the bribes. The facilitation continued when he became president. So obviously if true. They're very bad. These allegations have been rumored for a while But I I wondered about the timing of this. Indictment folds into a bigger regime change play and strategy that the administration has been trying and failing to execute in Venezuela for the past few years since early. Two Thousand Nineteen the. Us is recognized opposition leader one Guido as the president of his Willa But in addition to doing this in the middle of a pandemic it seems likely to kill off. What may be small chance? There might have been left to negotiate an exit for Madero right if he thinks he's going to go to a US jail forever it he's not GonNa ever ever leave power. More broadly Venezuela's economy is destroyed. Their hospitals lack electricity. A lot of time. Let alone respirators that you need to keep. Cova patients alive so it just feels Back to our POMPEO conversation. It feels vindictive at a time when even even if you have a regime change policy like Pompeo does that policy. It might be better served if you found a way to get aid to the Venezuelan people even if it was through Through Guidos people right and I'm not suggesting that as a policy people love to you know. Listen to what we say on this podcast. An Act like we support regime change in Venezuela we do not but it does seem like another step that harms the Venezuelan. People is just seems indefensible. Yeah and I I. You know I haven't dug into these charges. I mean Notably the FARC signed a peace deal with the Colombian government in. So I'm its not unclear to me. How much of this like how far back? Some of the charges go but the the more important point is when you made riches at this Venezuela policy was not working already maduro was just as entrenched as ever one. Guido is actually. I think in a weaker position than he was when trump recognize him as leader of the country. So that wasn't working and at the end of the day the only way you're going to get some kind of change leads to a better future for the Venezuelan. People I believe is through some form of negotiation and what is more likely to bring that about if you make this existential for Madero and the people around him. It's much less likely that they'll ever negotiate with anybody. At the same time it has weird. Echoes of when the US invaded Panama. To Arrests Manuel Noriega on a set of drug charges. Venezuela's much bigger than Panama. I'm not suggesting that's going to happen anytime soon. But if trump's reelected you know who knows and it seemed we said about Iran if you want to actually solve the problem first of all there's a human component here which is we why are we still enforcing these sanctions on a country. Where people already couldn't eat and now we're dealing with a pandemic. We should be trying to help these people that should be our motivating factor Dealing with pandemic anywhere irrespective of what the government is just when it comes to the basic humanitarian question but even the strategic question of how you try to advance democracy for the Venezuelan people if you were able to be very generous if you're able to try to mobilize support to get Lifesaving assistance and food and water to people in desperate need. That could be an opening for negotiation. That could be an opening for some people around. Madero to say you know what? I'm tired of going down with this ship. I want to talk to the opposition. I WanNa talk to a group of regional countries. That's more likely to actually get to the objective of a better government Venezuelan people then this so in addition to being vindictive just once again. I think it doesn't even advance. What the state of objective of their policy is. Yeah I agree. It's just like when when Jackson deal The Washington Post columnist we were talking about earlier is criticized for for trash talking around there. He's a pretty hard line. Anti Rongai as hard lines. It gets. Yeah it seems like God. It's pretty clear to everybody that these are self-defeating policies three more quick thing so a quick update out of Russia. We talked last week about how they're really hadn't been out of corona virus news out of Russia That last week on Sunday night Moscow residents got a four hour heads up that. They're going to be quarantined until further notice. And it's a very draconian quarantine. You can walk a pet. You can take out the trash you can go to the grocery store but I think that's it It was announced by the mayor of Moscow. Which is interesting because Putin gave a speech a few days earlier on the virus where he did delay the nationwide referendum that he'd been pushing which would could promote our which could lead to constitutional changes that would allow them to be president for life but when it came to Delivering the really bad news about how life's GonNa suck for Awhile and Quarantine. He let the mayor do it which is pretty pretty tough. Pretty bad US We also learned today that the doctor who gave Putin a tour of this big corona virus hospital in Moscow has the virus and there's photos of them shaking hands and so Ben. I mean like this is inevitable that Moscow is going to get this thing but what has jumped out at me over and over again is how quickly the virus has directly threatened the most powerful people in the world the best guarded human beings on the planet were instantly threatened by right. Bolsonaro either had it or might have it tons of senior officials in Iran got the virus trump was exposed at CPAC now Putin and it it does make you wonder if it will cause them to think a little differently because for the first time they are at risk well first of all like this is all a bit of a game a Chance. Right because we've seen healthy people die of this disease and you know the percentage isn't high like a boa but it's real and so you do wonder too certain point you know. Are we going to start to see leaders become very ill? And I'm not trying to be groups or anything it's just it's kind of a law averages here that that somebody could be incapacitated by this disease. I do think it is striking. How much look. It's just a reality that countries with with these kinds of nationalist self obsessed leaders have been far behind the curve in dealing with this where countries like Germany and South Korea with reasonable kind of technocratic leaders. Not You know and so I I you know. I think it's a wake up. You know everybody's got a wakeup up call eventually. Putin or mody. What have you and they tend to go one eighties from being relaxed about it. To being utterly draconian but again I think it's just another indication that there's something about this brand of leadership and politics that gives people blind spots where they don't respond until it's too late and then when they do respond they have to do it in the most strike owning way possible. Yeah so one other interesting story coming I. The San Francisco Chronicle reported on this letter from the captain of the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt. About a pretty desperate situation with the virus. So there's a major outbreak on the boat there pleading for help at least one hundred sailors out of the crew of more than four thousand. Have the virus They're trying to manage it. Wild docked in Guam. And so ben like my heart goes out to everyone on that ship in frankly to all the service members who were serving in places where social isolation is impossible or dangerous. I mean imagine submarine imagine barracks in Afghanistan. I read that all poor calls for US Navy ships or currently cancelled which is just like sucks for these men and women in terms of their life. But there's also something of a parable here which is that when a virus can cripple a five billion dollar aircraft carrier or related Li. When climate change threatens two-thirds of the military's operationally critical installations as outlined in. Dod Report last year. Maybe it's time to start. Rethinking are spending in defense priorities. Full Stop Yeah I WOULD ECHO. I feel for all these men and women. Who are you know trapped in proximity to each other and dealing with the spread of a virus and there's a limited number of surfaces in a boat and presumably this disease we're told can live on surfaces? It's difficult thing to avoid. I really glad you made the point you did. I hope that one of the things that comes out of this is a massive rethinking of our defense budget and how we think about national security. Generally it's been very clear for a long time that spending trillions of dollars fighting you know a few thousand terrorists is not the best way to allocate resources. It's been very clear for some time that spending a trillion dollars modernizing our nuclear weapons stockpile is not the best way of dealing with actual threats. If this is not a wake up call we will never get one the threats that you and I are going to face that my kids are going to face are from climate change from pandemics cyber information wars stuff that we're just not spending money on just like we're not spending enough money on basic research and development and public health infrastructure if we actually WANNA have national security policies that deal with the threats to American individuals which is what governments supposed to do. We don't need to spend the levels of money that we are not just a war but on certain weapons systems on We've got a military designed to fight wars. It aren't fought any more conventional wars and this endemic problem because of globalization. Unless we're going to change the nature of globalization unless there's not GonNa Be Global Treaty of movement and supply chains. You'll notice that these are happening more frequently you know murders and SARS and h one n one and then something of greater lethality like a bullet now this these things travel faster and so this is not going to be enforcing the kind of thing where we just got through this one and then we don't have to worry about again so I do think we're we're in. This is something Joe Biden should pick up were due for a massive rethink in how we spend money and allocate resources for national security. Because we're dealing with all the threats of yesterday and plainly we've found out that this administration particulars incapable of dealing with the threats that we actually are facing yes. The climate change rollback of the fuel efficiency standards plays right into this right. I mean he's setting us up to be even further behind the curve on the next existential threat after a pandemic which is climate change. Yeah that was not a not a cool thing to drop on us in the middle of this this pandemic nightmare at least. Hopefully it'll get tied up in the courts until Joe Biden. Whoever the next president Last thing so on Sunday out of nowhere president trump tweeted that the US government will not pay for Prince Harry and Meghan markle security costs if they move to La. I believe that tweet immediately followed his four part tweet storm bragging about his TV ratings. So this week. Harry and Meghan officially stepped down from their roles in the monarchy. Whatever that means Going forward they won't be referred to as his or Her Royal Highness. They won't live off British taxpayer money. there are reports that they're officially moving from candidate to La because they have a network here so obviously they'll need security of some sort given their profile so it was very cool of president trump to highlight that need to his millions of deranged twitter followers. But you know Ben I know you spend some time with Harry back in the day. Hopefully these guys can find some privacy and anonymity in La. I mean they're still gonNA be famous also deal with TMZ but hopefully it's better than the British press. But I can assure them that we hear crooked media will never hire Paparazzi or stake them up. I was a shocked to see them. End Up in. La this fast I thought they might end up here someday. But it's a bit of a shame to see them leave the United Kingdom at the Commonwealth Under the kind of cloud that they did I guess L. as a place where she can resume career to your point. I mean I guess. La's also plays with a lot of famous people who lived behind high walls or hedges and the fact that Donald Trump decided that that's something that he was focused on. I mean I just say I got a news alert. I think from that they lost their world. Titles and like. I don't think it's possible for me to care less about something you know in the midst of a pandemic in a depression. So maybe maybe actually. That's argument for them to just leave these people alone. Like why are we thinking about this? Why Are we devoting in any brainpower to whether or not Donald Trump thinks that? Megan and Harry's should have security they want some peace. They want some distance from their family. It's a good time to have some sense. Anyway that's socially isolated and maybe they'll come out on the other end of this as a happier in productive people who can provide for their own security and you know we can all move past this pandemic and start worrying about Meghan Harry again. Yeah that'd be nice. That's a high class problem. All right when we come back we will have my interview with former. Us Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro. The world is brought to you by transfer wise. The modern way to send money abroad. Let's be honest guys. This is a shitty scary time. 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Jiangsu gavdos focuses on the dark side of the American dream white collar corruption in season one. The college admission scandals took center stage now season two tackles and even more explosive topic the NRA the NRA is the self proclaimed oldest civil rights organization in America. Make millions of dollars. She says I can't believe they say that. In donations from its members to fight for their second amendment rights but it turns out not all that money is going to the cause. Yeah you might have read a little bit about this law. Yeah it's making a lot of creepy people rich from C thirteen originals division of cadence thirteen and host Andrew. Jenks here the inside story of how the NRA's future and its very existence as a nonprofit is being threatened. The story is not about guns or even gun rights. It's about one thing money. Sure as a really cool story yeah be sure to subscribe to gangster capitalism on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. I am now thrilled to be joined all the way from Tel Aviv. By My friend former Ambassador Dan Shapiro. He served as President. Obama's bastard Israel from twenty eleven to two thousand seventeen. He was on the National Security Council before that. And now he's a fellow at the Institute for National Security said. He's Dan. It is so great to see you even if it's from our mutual quarantines. It's great to see you to Tommy and I guess this is the closest we're GONNA get for a while so that's right so then it has been a wild year and Israeli politics right. We've had three different Presidential level or Prime Minister Elections Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu in his chief rival blue and white party head. Benny guns were seemingly deadlocked over and over again. Netanyahu looked politically vulnerable or wounded because he was being indicted on these corruption charges and then seemingly out of nowhere people like me. Benny Gaunt's said that because of the state of emergency around the coronavirus he's going to cut a deal and form a government with his arch-rival Netanyahu. This did not go over well in Venegas blue and white party. But why don't we just start there? Like what do you think happened? Why do you think guts left? Everybody's head snapping here when so many political analysts thought that he had a path forward to to build his own coalition and become prime minister. Well what happened? I think in a word is corona virus happen. Let me just back up a little bit. You talked about how. Israeli politics has been in this kind of stasis for over a year to three elections after the most recent election on March second initially actually look good for Netanyahu. Big Election Night Party Likud once again became the largest party in the Knesset. The argument but it quickly became clear. They actually felt short. Is Blah only fifty eight seats and even sixty one and in fact there were sixty one who supported guns to at least get the mandate to form of government right it was actually illusory because those sixty one. We're not cohesive that we're not willing all together in one government. They had conflicting ideologies conflicting identities. And whether the party the represents the main air bind already of Israel and the people in his own party got audited wanted. Join with them. So the truth is he didn't have a sixty one votes for government would he did have though was unity among sixty one to try to push. Bb Out because they're gone that they're tired of corruption tired of his divisive ship style. Tired of the way caters to the extreme religious and right-wing factions and it looked like they had a strategy to try to do that but at the same and actually at the same time he was using the corona virus emergency to try to strengthen his hold on power which only increase their desire to push him out he used the fact that there were social distancing restrictions. I to try to get the parliament not able to meet at all well. Blue and white went to the Supreme Court records that they have to be ran is he. Launched Electron IX surveillance program to track people with the virus or people who've been close proximity to see if they should be quarantined and there was no parliament oversight that they went to the coordinator. You have to let the parliamentary committees. Need to do that. And then is justice minister who has gone into a real Sycophant in his decided. You know what social distancing means? The courts can't meet and forty hours before beebees trial long-awaited corruption trial for bribery. And other charges miss about thunder going away the courts for shutdown so men all of this only increase their desire to pursue in Europe. But at the same time the virus is spreading and then you know as he's done in many previous crises sort of took charge of the National Response. He was on a nightly briefing on television. He seemed very much in command. He made early decisions. Would actually were good decisions. Close the International Airport. He took place quarantine requirements kind of mobilizing public which knows how to follow instructions in emergency situations and not surprisingly his own number. Starting to go up as people started to focus on the crisis. Emergency Healthcare economic concerns and of course the crisis is real It's not as bad. I don't think the United States but I think they're up to about forty eight hundred cases here certainly economies and Free Fall. Twenty three percent unemployment one million threads rallies filed for unemployment this week and guns looked at the situation and he saw that you know even though he seemed to be beyond the ropes and he. He seemed close to his goal. He just didn't have the numbers to to follow through and former government and so he pressed on the main likely the most likely possibility would have been a fourth election now withstand all of these and on that one at now it'd be running as the League managing the crisis Israeli sick and tired of this political stalemate and gunslinger likely. Get internal poll showing. This would have lost that election outright so I think at that point when you look at his options and he had a bunch of bad options and the L- he felt the least bad was going to the unity government at least game partial control or partial partnership with Netanyahu. They've put in place are putting in place an agreement that should is supposed to give a rotation eighteen months Netanyahu prime minister and then eighteen months of Mr. We'll see if that ever comes to pass. But I think for him. It was the least bad option but those are the political calculation. I'll just say one more thing about guns. I think there are some personal considerations as well. Gosh is not a natural politician. Yes forty years in uniform as a soldier serving the country following orders. I mean he's genuine patriot. He came into politics late. It's not as is lack long goal and he sees the country in crisis. He sees paralyzed government. He's he's the people exhausted with politics. Really in desperate need of a government and make decisions asked budgets really delivered relief to the people and I think you know he said in one of his interviews in the final week before he made this flip. He said there are principles. Meaning Mike Principles that. I'll never sit in government with Netanyahu who is under indictment and there are circumstances and that referred to the emergency and in the end and I think he did what he felt he had to do the best of at least of atoms bad hawkins but also want the country required in the moment of emergency. So that that's interesting. 'cause I I've seen some you know critics of a lot of them in the US. Say What the real problem was that he didn't have the political will to forge a coalition with the joint list which is a coalition of. I believe fifteen Arab lawmakers and you even saw articles in the New York Times that was like how much democracy is too much for Arabs in Israel. Which really kind of. Rub Me the wrong way. Because it's talking about a class of individuals as second class citizens in the country. But you think that in fact the math was not there to get to sixty one with blue and white and the joint list God himself had said in the campaign that he did not intend to form a government with them or with their support for outsiders. I would have been done but I actually think he overcame that and I have to give him credit with very articulate in the final weeks of the campaign and then during the transition period to say look all citizens or citizens it doesn't matter the Jewish Arab in fact many doctors nurses and pharmacists people on the front lines in a crisis are Arab in Israeli society and their boats are as good as anybody else's I actually think he had overcome that he did have members of his own party and at least one other already that was intended to be part of the coalition that were not there yet and you know that goes to the fact that some of these particular members of the Arab the joint lists are very outspoken against Israel's existence the Jewish state a few of them have even express support for Palestinian acts of violence. So the critics would say well. It's not the generic party effectiveness sitting musee whole nevertheless I think God had overcome this hurdle until internally he was prepared to do this but you simply have the support of some of his own people. Now maybe if he and squeeze them harder maybe if he had that political auditions killer instinct. Echo squeezed some his own allies to ultimately follow through. And do that but It would have been very difficult. It would have been very unstable government. It's clear along lasted. Obviously the joint list feels very burned. Feel like they stepped forward. They did recommend him to get the mandate something not traditionally done after Israeli elections. And they did it because of that. Unity of purpose. Some just getting it now out of office someone who desperately WanNa see Gone and then at the last minute. Goncz switched directions on him so he's been even bitterly criticized by Arab parties by some of his other Alex Amenities voters. He's been cursed. And mocked and. Call a political weakling for what he did the same people who backed in just a few weeks before. Yeah so under the terms of this deal. I believe that bb Netanyahu is supposed to leave the country for eighteen months. And then Betty God's will take over as Prime Minister in September of Twenty. Twenty one does any way of ensuring that that transition actually happens. What would prevent bb from say calling another election before handing over the reins right so most likely nothing? Most people in Israel think of some trick up his sleeve whether it's to call the election reshuffle. The the government in some other ways and the consul be made to look like a fool. And it's possible I must say he's going to enshrine the eighteen months rotation in law. But it's a lot of changed and certainly GonNa Government Falls There's no way to cure for. What is he getting meantime? He gets an empowered deputy prime minister role. And they'll be the defense or foreign minister Very importantly his party will control the Justice Ministry. They were they. Were very upset. That the Justice Minister Under Netanyahu seemed to be using that position to help flow down and walk into lay out. Trial was just to ensure that the trial will go forward so during the eighteen months into now is for Minister. He will be on trial for bribery breach of trust and fraud. He is supposed to have an equal number of ministers in the government even though he is only as fifteen seats now. It's split half of his party refused to follow him into the steel fifteen seats to thirty six. But he's supposed to have an equal number of administered so even eighteen months he may res amount of influence over the agenda but the big question is will that rotation ever take place a lot of people to ask you raise an interesting point about the justice ministry. I mean in the past. Devi Netanyahu was asked. The Knesset the Israeli parliament for immunity from prosecution. While he's prime minister. Those efforts have failed so far. Do Do people think that those efforts will be revived? Now that he's back in charge there really are no votes for him were not sufficient about him to gain immunity and that. I don't think God's will give him or any of those people who are going into the government with guns so immunity is not in the cards Netanyahu. It has also accepted the reality that he will be standing trial now standing trial while he's prime minister will give various advantages Ways of delaying it ways of saying certain crises that are going to monopolize his time so he can't come to court that day that kind of thing and possibly if he wants to negotiate a plea bargain later in the process he'll be in a stronger position to do so as prime minister than than otherwise something both. He says to some of his associates that he really wants is just a a graceful exit? He doesn't WANNA leave. Embarrassed leaving a convicted as WANNA be pushed out of office. He wants to negotiate a graceful departure from publishers. I I'm not sure anybody. Who's watched history really would take that seriously. Guidon who believes he is kind of special destiny to lead the country. And we'll try to hang on as long as he can but the trial will go forward. I think that that we can say pretty safely. Got Someone to go into this deal. Atlantic guarantee that Dan. I've been thinking about you a lot. And all the Middle East peace meetings. We had way back in the day because I've been reading Rising kill I by Ronen Bergman. Don't know if you've read the book but fantastic book I mean but it's about one hundred fifty pages and the right so I met the Mayor De gone. I believe is just sort of come onto the scene and it's fascinating to such a recent history of the country in the leaders were so often plucked from these elite war year groups. Like a secret subgroup within the idea for the Shin. Bet or the Massad and it just like. I can't recommend it enough because I think when you read about the history of Israel in the existential threat that in Jewish person would feel in say nineteen fifty. It helps you understand. Zionism better but that doesn't mean that all the choices that flow from that fear or those decisions are good for the country or good decisions writ large anyway. A book plug in the middle of an interview here agree with all that I mean. Run Burger reporter Terrific Book that tells a very compelling story and I do think you capture something there that that most Israelis have grown up with some sense that existential fear Either they are all cost survivors. Themselves are the children grandchildren Holocaust survivors. So they know that story or of people who were expelled from other countries and had to come to Israel refuge and they Israel in its early decades did face wars and survival against its Arab neighbors who actually were trying to destroy and even more recently. It's had terrorist attacks and Iran talking about finding its way nuclear power so those those fears are legitimate and they die hard even when they're a little bit anachronistic. Israel is out by far the strongest country in the Middle East. That book tells the story of some of the most creative ways they have extended their power to defeat. Limited various enemy and Israel is not in any existential danger today even while there are still some culture. It's the spirits but the question. So if you live in that mindset on Detroit's fighting for your very survival might that make some decisions Questionable or not the right ones given time or Miss OPPORTUNITIES TO TAKE RISKS FOR PEACE. Because of that very deeply and I think again understandably Rooted sense of sense of fear. Yeah so keeping on your theme there Existential threats. Let's talk about the current virus. So you know you. You touched on some of this. I mean some have accused Netanyahu of using the virus as a pretext for a major power. Grab somebody even called sort of a soft coup as you mentioned the Shin. Bet which is Israel's domestic intelligence service. I guess you could say compared to the FBI. They've been granted these new powers to track the virus But even stepping back from this government world. I've read about there being an acute shortage of healthcare workers in Israel. So I'm just curious from your perspective. How people in Israel are feeling about the virus and like how well positioned Israel is or is not to manage the crisis. Yeah well I think they have managed it reasonably well By the standards of Western countries today think they are tracking by forty eight hundred cases other about eighteen debts as a result. It's not on the scale of the outbreak that appears to be happening in the United States at the hospitals are not overwhelmed or at least. They're not overwhelmed yet but it is growing and they are expanding testing and it may be that The numbers will grow further. I have to say I think the scale makes a difference There's one international airport and they closed a very early There's nine million people and Very easy means to communicate a unified message to most of the country And most of the countries used to following those kinds of instructions and people have been quarantining since earlier. People are now basically housebound With the with except for emergency needs And most people are observing it. So I think that they have the The the health aspect of it in about as a well in hand as they could the economic aspect is obviously devastating Small businesses are closing. I think I mentioned a million people. Out of an opulent nine million. Just filed for unemployment benefits That's the jump from four percent to twenty three percent and about time So that's that's really quite devastating on. I would think it's probably overstates the case to say that there's a coup underway I think many democracies experiences you know we did after nine. Eleven and many others have been other situations. Maybe now a when there's a crisis and people are afraid and we're looking at the governor's protect them They allow certain expansion of powers. That maybe wouldn't happen in peacetime or a non crisis time to serve beyond bail but it's not the extent say Hungary which just passed legislation essentially allow or bond to rule by decree and to cancel elections and to eliminate any need to consult with parliament. Then actually did try to A. He didn't start the surveillance and good. Try To delay meeting in the Knesset and his rivals went to the Supreme Court and court struck down So the democratic institutions. Here I think are are holding And I think they will come through it without seeing major damage done to those Democrats. Yeah good deb. Checks and balances. That's a big theme of today's episode is all the bad actors around the world. We're using this to pass emergency laws or crackdown on the free press. It is it is troubling including here in the United States. Frankly when you see donald trump berating every reporter who asked him a question that dares to question whether two hundred thousand people dying is a good outcome during the Palestinian side. I seen a lot of concern about the potential for the corona virus to just decimate the Gaza Strip in particular Some US senators including Elizabeth Warren Bernie Sanders. They sent a letter to Mike pompeo calling on the US to send more aid and they called on the Israeli government to lift restrictions on Humira humanitarian aid into Gaza. How acute do you think the problem is likely to be in Gaza given their infrastructure? And do you think there's any hope of some sort of lifted those restrictions so in Gaza's isolation in some ways a may have protected it at least until recently from the outbreak? There's very few people are going in and out of Gaza but eventually of course the virus did reach there a couple of travelers arrive in from Pakistan. They were diagnosed. I think their cases are now up to nine or ten and the worry. Ors Is an in such a poor or very very densely often dairy and with reports structure and very substandard health care facilities that it could spread like wildfire They are currently the local authorities such as Hamas authorities are currently setting up quarantine camps and trying to deal with it. The truth is this isn't one of those situations where Israel and Palestinians even when they are bitter rivals and that's obviously true even between Israel and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank where there are relations but even in the case of Israel Hamas where. There's no former relationship and famous Israel sworn enemies They had some ability to look past a politics and find ways to cooperate in practical ways. So in fact Israel has facilitated in the last week or two the entry into Gaza of Slobs and surgical equipment and laboratory equipment and protective gear for doctors. There's more of that going into the West Bank. The the the health authorities in the West Bank Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government are actually very very close touch and really trying to coordinate and away because they're the populations really leaving intertwined Areas and and the viruses easily spread from one to the other. There's less than that direct ordination through Gaza but I have to say the UN representative Nikolai Just yesterday he actually complimented Israel infamous finding ways to get more aid through the process Finding ways to allow additional Financial assistance to come through Mostly financed by cutter and it's a work. It's work in progress. I this is not to say that. there is a huge risk here And that there isn't more than needs to be done to try to get the supplies and the and the health health care requirements met in Gaza. But I do think it's one of those moments when ideology and identity is being somewhat sublimated to the practical realities that this is. This is a threat that does not a absurd warriors And if it breaks out in Gaza obviously it's going to be humanitarian catastrophe there but it will also deepen the crisis for Israel and the same is true in the West Bank. So I'm I'm I don't Wanna say everything's solved but I'm cautiously optimistic that all sides are addressing this as they as primarily as a public health. Emergency that needs to be dealt with In that way well. I'm glad to hear you're there. There are some optimism there. I mean I guess. People are probably pretty upset that all the joint Israeli Palestinian celebrations of Jared Kushner's peace plan will not be allowed to go forward. Is that disappointing as a major critic with that plan? Oh beside nuxie that way. That's very interesting. Subplot of the unity government that Johnson. Netanyahu are about to forge. Netanyahu wants to proceed with unilateral annexation about thirty percent of the West Bank. That's envisioned in the trump plan. Goss who did go to Washington and said some complimentary thanks to trump at the time has also made it clear. He doesn't believe in unilateral annexation. He wants to do things in agreement with the Palestinians. He does WANNA hurt Israel's relationship with Jordan. Which would be a very strained by annexation of and so they are currently haggling over. Whether that process can proceed. I mean would be sort of a crazy use of resources and attention And any government attention whatsoever to focus on annexation while you're fighting this This public health thing but it is art in the legacy. That Netanyahu wants to accomplish during trump's rain. I suspect the end. They're gonNA wait and see what happens in Election November. If all country elected you know it'll be hard to withstand that tied over the next four years. God if Joe Biden is elected Why would you start an annexation process in the final weeks or months of two thousand twenty only to have an immediate clash with a new Democratic Administration On January. Twenty twenty one. Yeah that's a great question. I guess. Maybe they're probably going to be put in the intelligence community on overdrive to figure just how intense that clash would be with Biden. Because I do think that you know Bernie. Even Mayor Pete number people talked about conditioning aid if there was an acceleration of the West Bank. I believe that Biden was one of the few holdouts. So you know look at that may or may not be real signaling. You've just been not commenting at the time but you know something. I bet. They're watching. He did say that. He doesn't favorite conditioning aid. He also said in his speech A VIDEO RECORDING. He sent eight-pack That Israel had to not a station at the stop. The threats of annexation station much less the implementation had to stop the expansion of supplements Those they release calling on Israel to do the two State Solution Alive Bible just as he was calling on Palestinians to end incitement and the light so I think it would be a clash exactly. What the mechanism that that clash would take is to say it would make very little sense for is really government to rush into that in the final weeks or months ago put. Oh Dan great to see you man. Thank you for all these updates. It is fascinating it feels like so much work is always ahead of us in these policy discussions but I guess that's the how it's going to be well. Thanks Tommy great to be with you. Hope you in everyone out there. Staying safe and healthy youtube too will pass this before before too long. Yeah Amen to that or the tip of the show this week. Thank you Dan Shapiro. Thanks to David. Lamb for joining in was fun to talk to people in faraway lands who are trapped inside like us so thank you zoom and if anybody out there knows how I can get my hands and some toilet paper Amal years. Take care of pate. The world is a product of Brooklyn Media Executive Producer. Is Michael Martinez? Our assistant producer Jordan. Waller it's mixed and edited by Chris. Basil Kyle Seguin is our sound engineer. Special thanks to our digital team. Allies McCone norm oconee. And My Kim who film and share episodes videos every week.

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1088: "Three Chamber"

No Agenda

2:44:11 hr | 2 years ago

1088: "Three Chamber"

"What is going on with those people Adam curry John's divorced starts November twenty second twenty eighteen. This is your award-winning. Give him a nation media assassination. Emma, so ten eighty s is no agenda stomping on Skype thugs and broadcasting live from the capital of the drum star state once again in downtown Austin housing, the clue b oh in the morning everybody. I'm not I'm curry from northern Silicon Valley where we did miss this effort, and it was a unique ten car train unjust, divorced. Nba's kills the money. Oh my God. All right, happy thanksgiving. And tell me give me do you. And everyone out there that we'll be celebrating thanksgiving. Everyone is set the Canadians who already had thanksgiving somewhere near the first of November. You know, the Dutch we've talked about this. I just got back from my trip to get Monet's lowlands. The Dutch they love taking little traditions in just taking they don't really like America. They think Trump is horrible. And you know, we're all racist. But interestingly. Even though we already know they took Halloween. The Dutch have Halloween celebrations. They have Halloween parties. It's not the spelled the same. It's Hello wing, which is entirely based on the movies. That's why they think it's cool Halloween. But of course, the Netherlands has no thanksgiving since you know, they were not fortunate enough to kill the natives of our country, and you know, to eat their turkeys, but they have built the whole thing from scratch, but they have a black Friday now, which is tomorrow the sand day notice is I noticed this is going on in England too. So we don't have thanksgiving because you know, it's not our celebration not our country, but hey men via have black Friday for shopping. Unbelievable. Yes. I know this is last year when we were spending thanksgiving. That's right. And black Friday. What are you guys talking about? And is this can can we somehow turn this racist? That'd be that would end it. Why is it called black Friday? What is the actual? Because it's the distant day of the year that the books go black. They go into the O is that really the reason it's not because we see tons of black people piling on top of each other in the WalMart. It's about this that one day where they all of a sudden nowadays department stores are in a profit mode money now. Okay. I I don't think if you went on the street, and you asked anyone I don't think three out of ten would know what would over have that answer. I never knew until I looked it up. There was some years back as they call this black Friday. It's kinda disgusting. That's when things are supposed to go bad is black Friday when the market crashed yet black. It's a black day. Yeah. All of this books flip. I didn't realize that interesting. Well, they do have new on the no agenda shore. Yes, you do as car train is part of it is I have seen these ten car trains for the last week. And I'm thinking as I've been looking at these trains against why are they tank cars, all of a sudden, they've always been eight maybe nine, and it turns out that it was like yesterday was the number one travel day of all time. I mean, this is the time they ever went travels. Apparently yesterday was the big dating myself what idiot would travel on a day like that? That would be me. That's right. I came home yesterday, although us traveling from. From Gitmo lowlands through London back to Austin. So I didn't really have the the, you know, the national internal rush that we had and it was actually it was booze. Okay. But let me tell you, what do you mean internal retail. But the inter what no US domestic domestic flights. Would they be tried? There's no thanksgiving in Europe. No. But that's the only that's the only thing that was really messed up international flights coming in. There was no real issue going to going to US airport standing in US airport line. That's what I'm saying. I didn't I was at the airport at five Amsterdam to get out. Believe me, very calm at that time of hope, and then I flew to London, you know, he'd learned you go to terminal five, and you have to stay within the terminal, but then you have no stop backup. People. The Netherlands people Amsterdam airport as you leave the country. This is new I've not seen this before view scan your boarding card. You can see the the customs guy right there because there is a exit interview in the Netherlands for your customs when you leaving they stamp you in stamp you out. But before that this this, you know, there's gates and you have to stay little glass gates. You have to go into a portal like a subway station. You scan your boarding card. And then it says look here does this light flashing off to the right. You see yourself on the camera and it's doing a complete facial recognition scan. Almost makes the sound. Lasted about thirty seconds before it finally let me in. I took my glasses off. I know maybe maybe that helped or not they couldn't find him. But it's you're gotta scan of me. You know, if it wasn't scanning it was making one I don't like that. I don't understand. That's just the just appeared out of the blue. And of course, that's after you, then slide your passport into their little scanner. So the linking my face with my passport. Now that you know, the password doesn't have a picture anyway, then you go to blunt and now you're in terminal five you arrive in terminal five and you want to do a transit's. Again, you go through similar little glass gates. You scan your your your boarding card, and then you have to go through security again, have you ever done this to cure? I don't know if I've talked about this have you ever done the security going back to the US in terminal five. In at Heathrow because you have to essentially go through a whole security process again except these agents are Dicks. They're they're rude. They're just asses many of the women Eric at agents. These are British these are British and they are rude. They treat you like, you're an eighty eight. You know, it's it's to me. It feels the very chauvinistic Brits, you know. You don't understand this? I spit on you foreigner. It's like just assholes really really goads me. And I've had this a couple of times. It's just like. It's just like, wow. You know, it gets to the point where of course, my bag has to be ripped open. But you know, they really cavalier they walked back and forth. Excuse me. I'm kind of waiting on my bag, then they give you look and they make you wait five more minutes. The other other pass them, you know, I'm packing my bag in which they've opened up, and you know, and excuse me, I need the space you just unpacked is packing it in. Yes. I need the space. You have to move where the passengers fellow passages saying, you take your time, you know, we'll wait for her. It's just their asses. And I saw every single I had three hours layover what is going on with those people. It's it's unbridged in a way. In british. It's, you know, this is why it baffles me. But maybe it is actually the real true Brits. But they just treat you with disdain. And I'm not saying our TSA offices or any better yelling at you. But it's so surprising because you don't expect it in the UK. Anyway, there you go. So what was my point? Well, we were trying to discuss the tribulations of traveling on the worst travel. Yes, there you go. There you go. So for me, otherwise it was fine. Just took forever to you land in Austin. You're you're you're good to go but did suitcase. I dunno. I think they already been pre checked in London is the idea yet checked all the way through. Yeah. And then you just get off in Boston. You're done. Well, yeah. You wait for an hour and a half. Because when you when you are pre checked you get that long transit sticker. And of course, they put you I guess somewhere way in the front or the back of the plane, and so your first on and definitely last off with your baggage, which is just whatever its first world problems. However quick update sports. Yes. Yes. Yes. Sports news for from us over here in the San Francisco Bay area, the warriors suck the Dutch as you know, they had trounced and humiliated. The World Cup winner. France, all they had to do is had a have a tie score against the Germans their second game against the Germans. And it looked like we were all going to have to jump off the balcony because it was they were to kneel down at the half. And they pulled it out of their butts and tied the Germans in the last minute they came for their bikes, and they took back a wheel not the whole thing. But at least the wheel. Very proud of the big deal. Yeah. Tying a game with Germany. Yes. And interesting, nil nil. No, it was it was no it was two nil to to to to. There was two nil for most of the game. And then at the Neal the very last. And the last ten minutes they pull the one out that all of the hat. That's actually called doing it. It's never mind. You're just going to scoff at doesn't matter. I will. No, I will no longer talk about the most popular sport in the world. I won't do that. Do you think it is the most popular sport because they actions in the stands where people beaten up each other? No, oh, it's a very simple sport that anyone can play just need a ball and couple of sticks. It's a it's a sport. Everybody can can pick up immediately. You can't just pick up list American football. Good ball. Put in effort in you need a basketball hoops to play basketball. And then this in soccer football predates, so many sports. It's it's an exciting sport. Just not on TV. Well, it's never going to be good on TV as you've pointed out before no advertising. No. You can't put put it on TV. They don't stop the game like Hannah TV. All right back just back to thanksgiving. Ramon. Do we need to do the story of thanksgiving? It's kind of a tradition shorten it up a little bit. Yeah. I'd like you to give a quick recap. And then I have a great from an old column. I wrote in two thousand four. Jerk. Thanksgiving was brandish throughout US history. And officially codified by Lincoln in eighteen sixty three at the behest of an activist woman writer named Sarah HALE before eight sixty three there was no thanksgiving per se. But a lot of proclamations giving thanks for this. And that some some called thanksgiving there, virtually no thanksgiving events from the Thomas Jefferson administration until Sarah, revitalize, the dying idea her rationale was that Americans didn't have enough holidays. Really? She had the right idea. The lincoln. Thanksgiving was justified as a celebration of the North's victory winning the battle of Gettysburg and had absolutely nothing to do with pilgrims or anything of the sort that nonsense was all reversed engineered by sentimentalists, even to I suppose it thanksgiving in sixteen twenty one which is kind of funny because I was reading on Twitter about how suddenly George Washington is. Now, the inventor of thanksgiving. Zip. It never ends. It never ends. This changing story of the fake thanksgiving law thanksgiving fork anyway to sixteen twenty one there's a three day one shot party modeled after something called the harvest home. It wasn't called thanksgiving harvest home was the end of the harvest party celebrated in parts of the British Isles. This party didn't happen again. In fact, most of these invited Indian guests to the sixteen twenty one event were later butchered by the growing population of settlers thanksgiving. There's other examples of these one shots, and it was to made this. Here's the last of the story Lincoln who made it a yearly event also made it stick to the fourth Thursday in November it only chained get this it only change for two years during the Franklin Roosevelt administration and moved up a week. It hopes stretching leave this. This is a fact in hopes of stretching the Christmas buying pattern. Oh, an extra week. I believe that that makes that totally sounds American. Yeah. Helping the economy. It was already a known fact that thanksgiving was the kickoff to Christmas buying a slew of half hearted traditionalist. And that you get these traditionalists found the Roosevelt change in Alabama nation since his somehow insulted pilgrims or the DR who knows who. And it was changed back after a couple of years of bickering. Right. So this, thanks. So thanksgiving is bogus. Now. We have a new thing. Which is the addition to the old story of this thing called friends giving what? Oh, yeah. This is highly. This sounds like a social Justice warrior move. Well, would it would it supposed to this got two things going on with it? One of them is slightly slightly. One of them is extremely disgusting. If you look it up in the urban dictionary definition number four Friendsgiving is where you dip. You're nuts. Into the Turkey gravy, and film it and then serve the gravy. And then show people feel like. Couple weeks. John you need to get another column or something because you're spending too much time on the internet looking at weird shit, man. This has got a stuff so friends giving is which is you'll see the term a lot used especially this year is the idea that you have friends over as though you never did friends over for the thanksgiving feast instead of or in lieu of or in place of family. Thanksgiving means family friends, giving means friends because family. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. And the balls in the nuts. Friendsgiving. And seeing his you know, I I going to have any gravy. I was not supposed to even do a show today. But, you know, seeing as you were only thinking of yourself a here we are. Here's how it went. We I'll tell you the story from my perspective. And then we gotta move on. I was pretty convinced we discussed having a best of interview show on thanksgiving this year, and John donne one interview with the mooch, and I think we're going to do another one. It was kind of a little bit of a couple of up. It was a little unclear but with booze. Pretty sure we're going to do a special show. And then John was like, well, I don't have to cook. Anyway. No one's coming over so screwed. I'm just we're going to do a show. I'm like, yeah. I have I have people coming. You. Didn't you didn't consider me for one second to ever decided. I decided it sounds a real a UK. You could just said, no the reasons, right? I tried. You went man. Okay. The real reason the real reason is that we've got showed ten eighty nine thirty three square. Right. Coming up the next show this Sunday. And I think we needed to tease it. So this is just a promotional episode. Okay. All right. The soda. I forgot. I now I understand I'm I'm completely on board. Let me then move into this. Do you have any idea when their tradition started of the United States, president pardoning a Turkey for thanksgiving? I'm glad you asked because I'm assuming now that you know. No, I don't get some research. I know. No. I believe it's the the first president mine have been no, I don't know. I the reason I don't know is because I did not look it up because I don't care, and it's a totally fake event. And a something every president does every single year, and it's been Trump way Klis weights. Just be quiet. It's fun. It's like it's fake. It's make believe it's like Santa Claus. It's like black feeds it's like, it's just fake fun. Can the news media today? Just play long just for one day just play along for one day with the fake that everyone knows it's fake without insulting or without pulling some other crap into it. You know, the Orangemen bad. No, it doesn't seem to be possible. I cut out all the ceremonious stuff. Just guy you the intro and the outgrow the president is actually about to take the podium. At the White House. We're going to go ahead. And listen in there at this rose garden event, it's actually the Turkey pardon. I mean, you can't make this up happening at this moment. Let's not the fact that she starts off by saying you can't make this up. I'm like, wait a minute. Is this something new do they not know the president does a fake pardoning of a Turkey. I mean, I hear that aren't you set up and very interested. As to why the this year is different. I was that introduction. Makes it sound very singular that Obama never did it or Bush never did it or Clinton. Never did it or Kennedy. Never did it or Johnson never did it. And I was I was even more surprised by what it was all about resident is actually about to take the podium at the White House. We're going to go ahead. And listen in there at this rose garden event, it's actually the Turkey pardon. I mean, you can't make this up happening at this moment. Let's listen. He stated. Good afternoon. Everyone a very special day at the White House. We are thrilled to be joined today. And there you have it. President Trump pardoning the thanksgiving Turkey, the annual tradition peas the name of this Turkey, and just the most unusual dichotomy here as this comes on the heels of a statement that the president has put out essentially pardoning Saudi Arabia and the crown prince and the king there despite what I mean, if you if that's what you have to take the pardoning of a Turkey and say what an unbelievable dichotomy as he's a sensually pardoning Saudi Arabia from their atrocities that is the biggest sharp junk sharp jump of ever seen and will stop on that that subject matter for one second which is. Trump says that he had a briefing from Gina the head of the CIA, and I guess somebody FBI guy or someone and he says they don't know really what happened. Now, there's no report. Did you see a report yet was there report? But yet all these news media outlets. Keep saying the CIA the CIA the CIA citing some mysterious report based on parenting, someone at the Washington Post saying that it exists. The Washington Post published it exists. It's coming according to people familiar with the process, according to sources who could not be identified according to services who would not speak on the record because they were not authorized to do. So it's so easy. These days just print. A headline say I got some sources and be the Washington Post, and you can do whatever you want. And now this has contaminated the fake Turkey pardoning call the dichotomy because. He's pardoning a real nation. Although there's no actual pardon. There's no pre presidential pardon going to Saudi Arabia. This is, you know, standing have sovereignty over Saudi Arabia that we can pardon anybody. Do they not see the irony of this? Or are they just trying to befuddled the public or, but it's still not too far away from the sovereignty? We must seem to see over Julian Assange, who's not an American citizen. Right. We're going to they've been diverted him freezing died somebody's that used to dight random people that that are stralia indict random Russians. Yeah. We did. Right. We random Russian will never show up except for the one Sobota to for the one guy that actually said, yeah, I'm taking you to court. They don't know what to do about that. Well, skull mushrooms come over here on the discovery that will take care of that problem. So it's being in Europe for a week. You really you can almost see this little cyclones of outrage that just spinning around the whole different time zones. You get the news in diff-. It's just very different. And I was receiving it in a very different, man. I wasn't on Twitter incessantly, you know, just reading some style, you know, getting stories from people, and you can just see it's all it's so much about nothing. And then it's all it's all like this Turkey story. It's all like, oh, oh this. That. And now we have this year. You said if Trump I thought I was actually convinced and I was regretful that he didn't drop a stupid idea, and I can assure you that if he had said, no, we're not doing that. Dumb. It would've been more. He's ruining American traditions. Yeah. Exactly. Well, I I did want to do a little segment here to clips because I've noticed very distinct narrative that's taking place a conversation and the conversation goes something like this. I like what Trump does I hate the way. He does it except it's a little different. We're now talking about we're talking about policy versus style style. You see? And this is now. It's going to be as defense so Trump supporters, which by the way are called Trump supporters around the world, it's not Trump voters or Republicans or people who like him even in in, Holland it's or in the UK I was in both over the past week Trump supporters to support it. What does that even mean? Trump supporters who they have another term that they use here a lot, which is called the base the base as is catering to the base. Yes. Well, this is policy versus style. And you hear people who do favor the president's policy often saying, but I disapprove of his style. And this came up in two I'm trying to think which one to play. I actually I'll do this. This was done lemon is the rather long clip. But I I really think it's interesting the conversation was between four. Four women. We had a white democrat a white Republican a black university of Berkeley, professor of history, Stephanie Rogers, and we had black Don lemon. So four women are on the panel. And I know it's me to say that. But I can't help it. They're all coffee coffee clutching and the assertion from the professor of history. Stephanie Rogers is that women white women actually have have been a part of the white supremacy and institutional racism that has that dominates all things fair in our country. And although not everyone agrees. Ultimately, it comes down to how he says stuff or what he says versus policy, and then we'll wind that up with a with a with an MSNBC clip. But I just listen to this. Because it's the whole conversation is is just intense to me when it comes to divisiveness through racism, seventy your quote in this article saying for centuries white women have invested in white supremacy because her whiteness affords a particular kind of power that their gender does not explain it to me by that. So you see this is a pretty loaded topic right off the bat. So as a historian I explore white women's economic investments in Houston, slavery and white women. I gotta stop this Whiteman women's investments in the institutional. What did she say the institutional? Toossion of slavery. So as a historian I explore white women's economic investments in Houston. Slavery white women's economic investments in the institution of slavery. Very small minority of people that had slaves. In the salad. Well, none much momentary. But it wasn't minority Nommik investment economic the means are putting money into it. Or they're getting what you might be headed towards that. Will now you have slaves. You don't do the dishes. What that has led me to understand is that there's this broader historical context, we need to keep in mind when we when we're looking at white women's voting patterns today. And as we look at, you know, their support their overwhelming support of Donald Trump when when a professor is trying to explain such a heavy topic as this and laughs right off the bat white women's support of Donald Trump. I this is Berkeley right there because the white women support of Donald Trump was fifty one percent. Major deal is voting patterns today. And as we look at, you know, their support their overwhelming support of Donald Trump and so. Tell us at left. Hell, yeah. But it's not. Okay. This topic. It's nothing funny that we. Women's support is fifty one percent. I holy call that a bandwagon. Think of white women as primarily focused in focusing on their gender oppression that because they are oppressed as women that that oppression will allow for them to ally and to to sympathize with other dispossessed and disempowered peoples in the nation. But my my research actually shows that they long long had a deep investment in white supremacy and not only did they benefit from it. But they participated in its construction and its perpetuation. She laughed again, not just in the context of slavery, not just in the colonial period. But well after slavery was over Alice. Why do you think that white women support President Trump, do you think more with being said what than they do with being female? She also so here it is. Again, we think we really need to start listening to some of the words because of the difference between I voted for him, and I support him. And so they've kind of taken this fifty two percent voted for him into they support him. And this is where we start to diverge. I think this Stephanie woman, I think she may be the she's the white Republican or the white we'll hear period, but well after slavery was over Alice. Why do you think that white women support President Trump identify more with being said white than they do with being females? You just said that I think when we're talking about the political arena voters women and men identify themselves as the Republican democrat independent or whatever their political party and I strongly disagree with. The characterization stop right there. I don't identify as any anything. I just I'm just a voter Massari. I just I reject that out of hand. I'm just voting. I'm not a do not belong to a party democrat. Hold on. A lot of people do a dentist. I what their party. Sure. And a lot of people are independent, which would be you. I think because the parties have been so screwy that the independent independent numbers have increased to the point where they have to cater them cater to the Republicans. If you're Republican because you know, you're gonna get their votes. So you cater to these these independent so called swing voters, and because they can go either way there's wing. I'm just saying that I reject someone telling me that I have to identify with some party, even if it's an in. If it's independent, I just as me, I think when we're talking about the political Raina voters women men identify themselves as the Republican democrat independent or whatever their political party, and I strongly disagree with the characterization that women are oppressed by nature of that oppression. They should naturally vote for another group of people that are press. I think that's just not how politics works. I think as a Republican or democrat, or whatever your political leanings is you should vote for people that represent those policies. I'm a Republican. I support this president I voted for this president. I did. So because of his policies, I do not agree with his tone and tenor donavan, your tone and tenor. We gotta write that down. That's what it is tone and tenor doesn't. This counting his behavior his tone his tactics. The things he says about women has denigrating women. And I I don't tolerate that. But it's the policies or what I stand for. But I was you don't have to support him. You could not vote. I mean, that's this is the this is the white democrat, the white woman democrat who says you could just not vote, which is also a way to identify policies or what I stand for. But I was you don't have to support him. You could not vote. I mean, that's the thing. I could say there's a democrat who says everything that I agree with that they say misogynist or racist thing I would not vote for them. And and I just want to step back for a second. Look, we spent a lot of time talking about Republican women. There's a problem with white women. It doesn't matter whether they're Democrats or Republicans or nothing there's a problem with racism every every every white person benefits from an inherently racist system that structure. Alie racist. We are. All part of the problems point my finger at you, just put my finger at you or and another person. But I think we have to recognize that there are there's institutional racism in this country saying I'm just gonna support somebody who you just said says racist things and does racists things she conflict just talking just saying that they've no examples, but they're conflicting support with with voting. And then it's you know, it's the tone this tone. We'll get back to the to Stephanie here for the last thirty seconds problem. Just the point of clarification. So I did not say that white women voted for Trump because they were racist. What I what I actually said. Context and white supremacy is quite important to white women not simply as the beneficiaries of white supremacy. But as part orchestrators part of the Bill, you know, the builders. Yes. See so just to women helped build white supremacy. Help me help me understand John. What is let's just get some terms. What is white supremacy? I just. Head belief that what the white race per se is superior to the other races. So what she's saying is that even today women? Help build the. Belief. I guess that white people are superior to all of the races. That's what she's saying. How how would you do that? I guess by voting for a white guy. Okay. In that case. Yeah. I guess beneficiaries of white supremacy. But as part orchestrators part of the Bill, you know, the builders of Premacy so just to clarify that. And I agree totally with what Kristen said, this is this is not about simply conservative white women. This is a phenomenon Etta spread across the country. Whether in the south or the north you can see that this is an it's not an indictment against all white women. This is about a certain a certain percentage of these white women who do indeed vote for a man who is certainly not speaking to their interests as women or as human beings. So I think what she's saying is you can't vote for someone based on his policies, if if you deem that person to be. Hateful towards women. Or or annoying in general? It sounds like yes. So your point. Of course, would you made is well, what racism what misogyny? And so now, we go to the second clip. This was a fascinating was meet the face the nation MSNBC. That's not face. The nation is CBS. I think so. Yeah. Face the nation, Dan, they had four or five of new new freshman coming into the house of representatives, including Dan Crenshaw. And he is the Iraq veteran who had is. Who is missing an eye has the I patch. He was the subject of the controversy on Saturday Night Live, which I thought actually was kind of solve a nice nice man or the next week. Him. Well, of course, it's thanks to him. And I'm like in this guy now. So he's going to call up this penguin when I forget who it it's another freshman coming in says, well, you know, and we've heard this million times, he's undermining our democracy. The democrat. He's ripping apart. I'm talking about Trump, ripping apart democratic institutions Orangemen bad. So Crenshaw says well, could you just give me some examples, and I thought this whole although it went way over everyone's head. I thought I thought the segment was outstanding to show you just how vapid this argument is. So. Mike far. And I think before we start off if someone said to you, please give me some examples. How Trump is undermining our democracy, would you? I mean, just thinking from any kind of dimension. We're kind of examples could we come up with? Well. I could I would say that by signing a lot of super-conservative judges on every bench around undermining the democracy. I'm sorry. Yes. Yes. Okay. So conservative judges conservative judges undermining to democracy. Yes, exactly what else is undermining the democracy. Rushing through the supreme court justices K rushing undermining that would be undermining to democracy be belittling and going through staffers too quickly going through too much firing. Yes. Too much fine. Fire undermines the firing right? Right. Right. Cozying up to Putin. Oh, yes. Yes, collusion. Yeah. Cozying up. Yes. That's undermining our democracy going along with the not not doing something about the American lit the not American citizen. But the American resident. Oh, yes. So so what we realize here is that none of these are actual things that undermine our democracy in undermining democracy would be doing something with the, you know, the three branches of government that would really break it, but actual undermining. But you know, maybe they have some examples this into this. This is a very nice little conversation. So. Mike far, and I think Dev contests on this wells, a member of the progressive caucus. But no, I don't think that's the case. I think we are all working together early in the same direction trying to save our democracy to be Frank. And so. Save our democracy. We'll look I think that right now it's important for this majority in the house engage in some really critical oversight of an administration that is undermining a lot of critical freedoms for folks that our country undermining a lot of critical freedoms for folks that live in our country. That's what we need to remember. So when I say our democracy. I I mean precisely that I think some of our democratic freedoms and the principles that we live by Pebane. Do we try to make a list of our democratic freedoms that have gone are being that are in harm's way? I think there aren't any. No, I think they're all pretty much intact, including the right to go say stupid stuff. Still kind of. Okay. I have been under attack for the better part of the last two years you want to respond to that. Since the president has is the leader of your party. That's the question. Like what what is he undermining exactly what democratic freedoms have been under my wish Senate election where we switched switched power in the house democracies at work people are voting and record numbers. Sounds about. Right. To me. I always ask for examples that we can hit those examples one by one. And if it's an if it's worth now, are you ready? So he's going to say, please give me some examples the whole group, including the host of the moderator of this panel is going to jump in. And it's just like a diarrhea of words. And these are all things that are undermining our democracy you'll criticizing but just kind of broad brush criticism that the president is somehow undermining our democracy that was wonder what exactly we're talking about. All of that. Reminding of the free. Under my cross Obama. FBI CIA, free passive. And they can't no one's no one's actually speaking entire sentence. That was wonder what exactly we're talking about? Into. Benny members under investigation. Trump is not what is the difference. What is the difference last week the largest media publications in the United States had to go to federal court in order to essentially regain acts. Including CBS did file amicus. That's right. And they they actually believe that this court case was a first amendment court case, which was not. But that's okay. You know, they really thought Trump really try to undermine our democracy with that support down. So I mean again. It's much larger because it was disruptive. Well again. Consistently disruptive in those very same press conferences, and I would argue that he was that press though, how is that undermining democracy, and here's an important one. How was that attacking the press because it's literally literally been attack? I think this too bad. This kind of just got glossed over the guy's been blown up. He was literally blown up by. And they have the gall to say, he's attacking. I feel a talk. Did I was really attacked? They're all too chicken shit say anything about it. It's very same press conferences. And I would argue that he. Press though, because it's literally literally been attack. Careful is an can't speak. Likewise. He not allowed to use his own language and freedom of speech. Okay. Now, we get to a very sticky point why can the president not exercise his first amendment right and speak freely. Well, of course, it's unpresidential. Because and you talked about this actually, it's important that we lead, for example, that we? I agree with you. There. I grew with you their style is one thing you want to criticize dial. I'm with you. Right. But to say, it's an attack on the freedom of the press. That is a very bold statement by calling the press the enemy of the people literally. Fake news. Of course, fake news. Another undermining us with his rhetoric about erasing trans people in our country that. He's a racing trans people. Well, it it. Here's. Against the JV t Q community. And I think that's troublesome. I think it's worrisome, we all have communities in I mean across this country and. And we mentioned it at the beginning, ripping children away from their parents on things that undermine our democracy that I absolutely feel that we have to just. The FBI and the State Department and all those importance to Titians that are fundamental to Howard democracy works. Wait intelligence agencies are now apparently fundamental to how our democracy works. How about histories started? What? A which was founded in nineteen forty seven. Onto mental too. FBI that that actively sought out people who are communist to to shame them throw them out of the country in their lives. That's that's important for our democracy. They keep our democracy working. Please lady absolutely feel that we have to just. Yes. The I in the states apartment and all those important institutions that are fundamental to Howard democracy works. You don't like what he says. And sometimes okay. But you don't like the. But you're saying undermining democracy, I want to own a caution us because those are very bold words, if we've policy discriminates, let's focus on this policy. Discrimi- happy discuss those at any point. But this is what I've been getting kind of all week, which is we tend to we tend to go right at the jugular. Right. We're say, you're undermining democracy or bad person fundamentally. That's not always true. We. A lot of this. It's interesting that we talked about some of the most of issues including immigration. But the thing that set all of you off was the president. We have to leave the conversation there. Thank you so much. Your new work. John. Oh this morning Tina, she always gives me a rundown of what she's seeing on Twitter, and she said. It was. Ben her boy been had been. Because the show on FOX Bendon Ben Shapiro. Ben Shapiro show on FOX. He did he had a show. He's he's going to be a FOX regular Shapiro. Nobody likes him. Ship Eero said that interestingly Trump Trump's policies in many ways are exactly the same as Obama's policies. But and this is his words Shapiro said. And I know a lot of people agree with them. Because of the way Trump says it that's why everyone goes Abe shit. And I say, no, if he defeat did it the same way Obama, did it he would be even worse. The press will be up in arms that he's doing it secretly all this evil stuff in there is no there's no there's no way around this style. Part of the presentation. It doesn't make any difference. I agree with you. I mean, there is just such a hatred of this guy. Yes. It is. Can't do anything about anyway. That's catch up to the situation. This is the cost of that's funny. That's play cost update. Misfired a cost up this morning CNN is asking for an emergency hearing. This is after the White House is warned that they may pull are calling to mukasi's press path. Again, are you still have to solve set allows week while on Friday, the network won a temporary restraining order forcing the White House to restore confidence rentals for fourteen days. But just after that White House officials sent a Costo letter saying they may suspend his pass expires. Choose media. Correspondent Brian Stelter is with us so te'o standing orders by nature they lasts for two weeks. Fourteen days. That's all the time. You have CNN wants here the judge to move to a more lasting decision. But. Yes. It was victorious in round one. I said on Friday. We don't know how many rounds there's going to be there's going to be many rounds in this legal battle. Do you notice that no one seems to be giving any details on the battle itself? Because almost as soon as that temporary restraining order was put into effect on Friday, Bill shine and Sarah Sanders, two of the defendants in a lawsuit sent a letter to Akasa two page letter that I have here that essentially lays the groundwork to take the press pass, revoke it again, which was at the end of the month, you know, eleven days from today. Yeah. Yeah. I I really this is such a they're such liars. This is such a disservice to the viewership to people who are interested in what's going on. And you have to go. You actually have to get through the Wall Street Journal paywall to be able to read actually what's going on unless you know, where to find a docket and actual paperwork if you go to private browser sometimes brave actually quite good for them. But I'm just saying that no one seems to want to talk about what the restore. Raining. Order was about it was it was not a first amendment discussion. They're not even at that level. I just wanna make sure again, I wanna make sure people hear it again. This was not a first amendment Kate court a court case not yet at least. But there's a solution. There is a solution. To this. Because this is this unless you have another clip and I'd like to play. If you thought you would. I thought you had some do thing in front of your or something I got no, I have a clip I have a solution clip. The solution to the issue of the White House press events Carl Bernstein, very famous man, he wrote. No, he didn't write the Washington. The the great uncovering of Watergate along with. Woodward Bernstein who by that. I put in the show notes again who has has published on his own blog, which still exist today. How many people the press were working for CIA including himself? But here's his idea. It's it's a fix. It will save democracy. We need to start thinking of a different way to cover his press conferences and briefings. For instance, I don't think we should be taking them live all the time and just pacing up on the air because they're basically propagandist exercises because they are overwhelmed by his dishonesty and lying. So how could we cover them differently? Maybe we should be. There. Edit decide as reporters, what is news. And after the press conference briefing is over then go with that story with clips rather than treating the briefing or press conference as a campaign event. I think this is a grand idea lettuce. Well, we do let's let's let's combat propaganda with actual propaganda of editing clips down and presenting it in a certain light. You would love that. But he's going to take it even further because you know, we can still keep democracy alive through this thing called. Oh, what is it a website, which they really are in which we did in the campaign as well. We gave them all this free airtime on cable news, especially we need to start treating it. Like, a news of it. And look in cable, we have websites can put up the total press conference on our website. So that everybody has the chance to see it or the briefing, and we ought as long as we can provide the spin doing it's a matter of record, and we can be the place of records. So everybody can see every word if they want it, but we need to start editing. Here's the story. Not just give him a microphone when we know that. His methodology is to engage in manipulate us on the basis of lying propaganda, and Atra prop there. It is. Ladies and gentlemen, these last word propaganda. Oh, no. We need to. To engage in manipulate us on the basis of lying propaganda and Atra pro. Andrew Cathro prop. Heels anthro process. I thought it was agitprop. It's what I thought he. Proper I. But then I hear it again. This is something I've never heard never this word and three pop. I don't know what he's saying. I have no idea. So they should put his words on it website. So we can understand what he's talking about. But the, but for this is the guy that many of today's journalists will say, oh, I got in. I want to become a journalist. I want to be Bernstein. And here he is advocating for editing out any context. And just, hey, here's the story. And we'll play you a clip in. Which is I remember growing up. We were moving toward something very dangerous. It was called the news bite. The soundbite. I'm sorry. The sound bite news reporting soundbite news reporting, and everyone recognized that is universally bad. And this must have been fifteen twenty years ago. Maybe a little longer the longer. And this is what it is. The problem is the internet has actually given us the opposite of that. We can go to a website called cheese C span, and you can get the whole. Everything in its entirety in context. And he doesn't like that. No, he's but he's not the bastion of journalism. Thing about him. He wasn't even the news as a as a high profile character recently was when in the sixties seventies. But then he he key kept seeing Woodward coming up with these thick books. He was getting screwed on the whole deal. And he wasn't getting this action is so he. Chimed in as worse is like a left-wing fanatic is fascinating to watch him go on and on about one thing or another because all very slanted. I just found this to be very. Disturbing that he would suggest that we have to chop it up and just play clips and pretty much. I mean, we know what that means. I mean, he say he saying you have to it has to be Annette. We can't give him a microphone because I guess the people can't parsh- what he's saying themselves. I mean, that's what he's saying. You're too stupid stupid. You're thinking. For four Arca. Yes. Yeah. For dictate for dictatorships. He's advocating for that. Yeah. Okay. Well, it's insane. Coming from him. Well, he's been kind of always been kind of unhinged for quite a while. It seems to me, but it goes so on challenged. Brian seltzer water sitting right there. That's a great idea. We should do that. They're all the same boat. We can't let people decide for themselves. No. Why they want? Great president. If it wasn't for. Yeah. Wouldn't be president. If it wasn't for Twitter. That's the point the AOC. I saw is this her latest. Yes. A civics lesser. We need a jingle jingle civics with AO. See? And make sure that we take back all three is that. Is that should we? And if we work our butts off to make sure that we take back all three of congress, rather all three chambers of government, the presidency Senate and house in twenty twenty. We can't start working in twenty twenty. Okay. First of all the something wrong with your clips because I don't know what's happening with the beginning. But it's like that was a mistake. Yeah. That's happened. A lot lately. No it happened. I'll tell you what it is. If you wanna know. Yes. When you start up. I'm I'm pulling clips from the from the internet as opposed to off the over quarter that used to do it. Because his more efficient. And it's not every clip. But every once in that clip, what was should have been cut that beginning that your bitching about should have been cut out by me when I did the edit on that final clip, and you wouldn't have said anything some stupid reason, I expert the entire audio file instead of just selected. So that was my okay. I know what you're talking about. You're talking about because I have left it in on a number of clips. She goes. Okay. I hear it all the time. You hear it? Well, let's just play a clip ac-. If it's on there. All right. No, no. Let's not. Let's let's deconstruct what she just said. So people understand. She says, all let's just let's just take it. Step by step. I want our non Americans and many Americans themselves understand why this is so ridiculous coming from someone who is in the house of representatives. Take back off three is that. Is that should we? And if we work our butts off to make sure that we take back all three chambers of congress. Okay. So she starts out by saying all three chambers of congress. You can say congress, not the congress congress which is made up of the house of representatives and the Senate I do not believe there's a third chamber of congress. There's yes there is there is. Bathroom. Commerce's down there in the basement. So now, she corrects herself. And she correctly says I mean, it's really the three branches of government. But she tries to tries to make it right by saying three chambers of government. I'll give her that all three chambers of government, the three I've always learned branches of government, which is the. Judicial the legislative which is where she is. And the executive those are the three this is something we learn when we're. Year seventy years old here, we got real early or. Yes, used to what you used to. I don't think it's being taught. She doesn't never learned. It press rather all three chambers of government, the presidency Senate and the house in twenty twenty she just kind of forgot to she made the Senate and house of representatives two of the branches and just left out the one she should be bitching out the boast, which is judicial. And she leaves this stuff up to which I think is brave, but this is going to be a UAE, you know, as long as I can. Not to let this continue. I'm Shelley talk to or something she going gonna tell her stop. This young lady has a presidential futures. What I'm gonna tell you right now this personally. Fun for the no agenda show. This kind of person has an absolute chance to become president. Not because of this what she said just the whole everything everything about people love her love her. And is so easy to ridicule. She has zero chance of getting any further gotten. Okay, she is laughing stock. That's what they said about Donald Trump. Yes, they did. So all you need is the media, which who are not covering her. So that's once that happens. She has she has a really remember this wants to run for president. Or now whose latest guy this Bloomberg? He's going to run for president. Bloomberg bloom Bloomberg. And he is you're the difference being celebrity guests celebrity running for president. If you take who many celebrities have been present we have Reagan. We've had is in Hauer. He was a celebrity. Oh, yeah. Of course, he was. He was a celebrity think. Yeah. You have Trump. L? These guys had a an enormous amount of public profile before they ever became president. Reagan had as much before he became governor of California, which he I actually had be out. I think outshone Trump by quite a bit because he was doing, you know, the sixty mule train thing he was doing these speeches. He has a TV show news in the movies for years and years and years, and then it became the head of the Screen Actors Guild is a former death us, right, right? Former democrat. However, did by today's standards, which is very different. Today's media landscape is not the same. I would say AO C L exander Cossio Cortez is a big time celebrity for Democrats big time. Big time, Jen, Brian who has a level head on her shoulders who who who die who if she heard these words come out of anyone else's mouth, including a democrat p would ridicule them because she does congressional dish. She knows very well. How government works? She knows her civics. She goes on Twitter and says, I love this girl. This go. Oh, so that's the past. You know, it's it does not matter. What comes out of the mouth as long as it? Sounds good. That's it's just ridiculous. That's murphy. You're saying is ridiculous at sadly now back to the celebrity thing. Trump had this, you know, this TV show that was a big hit, and he was known forever. I mean, he's been always on Letterman. He made a lot of TV appearances brag about himself mostly, but he was doing a lot of work. Bloomberg does not have this profile. He doesn't New York zero. No, he has no Berg new service. But when you see him, he's an annoying guy. He's Ori live, and he's apparently very short. Well, not wanna say the mad about. Apparently Bloomberg's like five one or something like that. Oh my gosh. Petite? But your point I think your point is well made but in today's world, you don't have to be a celebrity for very long can't stay a celebrity for very long. If you're an AO see because you wears thin. You're basically an idiot. She is not a bright girl. She is jet. Big is a nice mile, and she's photogenic telegenic, and she's excitable. Yeah. So she's kind of attractive to to the camera and people will follow her just like they follow other people on Instagram. They will follow her will love her for it. And it will vote for Pudi pirates for president. Then you're talking. All right. We don't have to agree. I think she is a definite candidate for presidency in our lifetime. She is a celebrity, and she is a modern day celebrity and as long as she has an Instagram account will remain a celebrity and people will love her for it. It's the it's the political version of the Kardashians. It works. Just that's just my opinion. I don't think it's comparable to. Previous job because she went door to door to door condemning the other guy was never even in the neighborhood. It didn't get take long for to win. Not going gonna work. I Graham bullcrap thing. I respect what you're saying. You just can't say, okay. Maybe you're right. You say you because you're not right. In this case. No, I've done it. I million times. Don't give me that. You've heard me say, well, yeah. You could be right. Good point. No. When you're not is when it's not even possible. I'm not gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. He's an idiot will just remind you go back, and I'll get the tape 'cause we have actual real real tape of the show, and I will play you the segment where I said Donald Trump is going to become president. And you save. Bill. Can you find that? I'll be stunned. Got it moving on. I would like to. Thank you for your courage and say in the morning to you, John. Ceased can't be president. In may. In the morning. I said, thank you. I did a whole thing. You didn't hear me? This is what you say in the morning. In the morning in the morning in the morning. Also in the morning there. In the morning to the troll room. That is no agenda stream dot com where we still have some trolls hanging out on this Thanksgiving Day show Thanksgiving Day show celebration. Good to see you all here that they they have the meal. Tonight. No, john. I'm not cooking the meal because you know, I have to show because you're not cooking a meal. Member cooking the meal. Yes. It was supposed to be me. In the morning to kneel to stop annoyed about it. Stop just stop. I'm not cooking the meal tina's cooking the meal because I'm not cooking the meal because of you. In the morning to Darren oh, Neal who brought us the art work for episode ten eighty seven hippie humming is how I pronounce it. Thank you to every Jew in the world who sent me an audio clip of how to pronounce HAMAs in Arabic or in Hebrew. We're in America here. So I'll say homeless. You're not pronouncing HAMAs, right? What are you supposed to say? Home of home of. Sir, sir. I think it was a cer- Brian of London. Maybe I think every every Jew producer. We have in Israel. And I'm saying that way specifically sending you're not pronouncing it, right? Would how do you say Germany, Deutschland course, fullness? Well, we say HAMAs in the United States, and we say Germany, where only our show says Deutschland is kind of a gimmick. I want to thank Darren for his artwork, which there's a lot of things we could choose from. But we really like a lot of people had hippie homeless as artwork. So we went with no agenda sports radio. You're number one resource for sports news. To your changing your whole attitude about sports sports report today. Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. I had another sports report is fantastic. And I defended the sport. I I follow. And I report on. Defended. Yes, I think you have every right to defend the sports that you report on. And thank you to all of the artists who have submitted artwork. We use it for a variety of things. I think we may even have a little note think we got a note from the no agenda shop dot guys. Did you see that come in? No, I'll have to see if it's they're changing the way they split the money because the way it works is if you upload something Nogent, art, generator dot com. If it's used for any of the no agenda shop dot com. Swag and goodies. Oh, shoot. There you go. Tony Cabrera number one on the list. He can read it verbatim. There is do that right now. Thank our. So should it. As producers ten eighty eight leading to show ten eighty nine which is thirty three squared thirty three squares anything in come up with for donation that represents thirty three squared. His welcome. Cabrera nine hundred fourteen dollars ninety six cents. It's a good amount. John and Adam I finally get time to calculate your latest share of the nose gender, shop dot com profits after spending ten hours this weekend calculating totals. I realized I had to modify the thirty three percent, which by the way time squared is ten eighty nine instead of calculating net profits on each item with which vary. Read the slow. Let me do it. Because I've already read the whole note, it's important because we have this model where artists show and the no agenda shop, Tony, I guess guys. They we all split this. And we have nothing to do with it. We believe it. We don't look at your accounting. We trust it you'd nine fourteen six love it. Thank you very much. Here's what's changing. He says it's important after spending ten hours this weekend calculating totals. I realize I had to modify the three way split model. Thirty three percent for thirty three for the show. Thirty three for the artists thirty three four no agenda shop instead of calculating net profits on each item, which vary depending on item size type color and region ordered from and then dividing by three the shop is switching to a fixed. Royalty system. It's not a big difference. But it is important understand for each item sold the show, no agenda show received three dollars and thirty three cents and the designing artist will receive three dollars and thirty three cents thirty cents. This will literally decimate the time to calculate the profit split, which sadly is not the definition of literally decimating. But I'll we understand what you're saying. Tony now, I can simply count the items each artist sold and multiply by three dollars and thirty three then send that amount to the show in the artist. And I think I totally understand. I think everyone's delighted that they're doing this at all. So I'm okay with it. But it is changed from the way. It is pretty much can do whatever he wants. Yes. He did not give anything to the show the artist's technically. No. So very happy. Thank you. Tony. We love it. We love the shop. I spend any money. I get from the shop. I think I've spent it on the shop. I love getting the space for St. show. I love all the stuff from the force. So it's it's it's another part of a value for value network. There you go there. We have no agenda shop dot com. Tony Cabrera coming in as the top executive producer. Thanks to the value that he's adding into our net. Love it. Just love it. Follow by Paul love came in at three thirty three dollars and thirty three cents three threes, which reminds people that there's a ten eighty nine show coming listeners says show one he claims, and I use the word claims came in is an avid fan and producer so many many show interest of the DSE envoys over DNC guy follower of John from tech TV Intech Meg columns glorious day when the two of you can bind to create the best podcasts in the universe. It was a glorious day. I appreciate the shoutout from Adam recognizing my early involvement in podcasting. Not a major player from the early days for fun times. With a great group of people is interesting to see. How see here how as with much of the world history is being rewritten. By those in the present to mold to their wants. Now, they were as the credit for podcasting is being taken over by a bunch of posers. Yeah. Well, it's how it goes. Always goes that way with this donation, I complete my knighthood records below. I've not kept track. Well, but recent history hits the Mark I would like to be titled, sir. Daddy, cast of the love house. That's right. The daddy cast. I remember daddy kissed while giving this time of year seems appropriate to express thanks for what you do value for value. This date also commemorates my oldest says eighteenth birthday think he's on the list. Check don't know. Yes. Keep going would love to hear the full version of our ESP at the end of the show and to delicious to believe followed by don't eat me, Hillary and that combo always cracks me up. Yes. The short version onto the long version of our ESPN CT at the end, and I do want to say that it is true that the history of podcasting is is just being hijacked and ripped apart. As someone sent me a link member, Keith and the girl. Yeah. Girl, I guess earliest earliest of early they're very early. But I didn't listen to the segment that was sent to me because the title of the show was fuck, Adam curry, okay, great. I'm sure so it's Keith and the girl, I think invented podcasting. So we have to be very thankful to them. ESPN tits. Almost two delicious to believe, my friend. You've got karma. A key to the girl. They hate me so much, and it's so stupid. It's. Pod pod show days. I'll bet. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But I I guess now the I'm I dunno. I didn't listen to. Just listen to it. It'll Demi probably would do the friend Friendsgiving. Gravy. You're right. You're right about that. David Slyke or Calgary Alberta three hundred fifteen dollars forty cents and he will be as last executive producer this donations eagle to four thirty three Canadian one dollar for the three ninety seven American thanksgiving. Plus thirty six months of listening to the show. Thanks for being my only source of news, happy thanksgiving gents, deduce me and played Donald loves Nazis for the end of the show. Ben teed. Donald loves that sees Donald loves Nazis. Say that he's taking k. Love that one of the better ones. We have a balanced show today, we have three executive producers and three associate executive producers. I think. Nice. And I one is Chris Stewart he did send an Email, and I didn't. Didn't grab the Email. I do have it. Good. Good. Good. You don't. Kiro long one. Good. Am I gonna read the whole thing because this really long good afternoon? John my apologies. Forgot to put my donation in the mail back in the summer, and I've been man overboard or some for some time today with the Canadian post strike, it will forgo putting check in the mail and make a donation using pay Pellett made the donation to seventy this should help pick up the slack in donations over the holidays was this donation for two seventy outright and this right to give you an adamant update on the outcome of the US MCA trade agreement. Now, he makes long this is where I'll send you a copy of this conclusion interested in in a bull crap. So really, it's just a rebrand. Well, he says that the dairy thing is not a big win for either side grace, I've over the Deel. Yes. And he is a long explanation. You can Senator read it Julian soak it into our our general knowledge base. Okay. And if there's anything in there, I think we should talk about bring a report, but file note, another Canadian politician to watch would be our minister, foreign affairs, Christina Freeland. She was our chief negotiator throughout the new NAFTA talks, a Rhodes scholar, I might add a globalist. She's one to watch as she plots. Her course within the liberal party if Trudeau and the liberals go down in flames in two thousand nineteen we can expect her to come through unscathed a definite front runner in the next leadership race feel free to some or all of this note on tomorrow's show, and we'll read over the the dairy stuff. And then we'll discuss it. Later, and he would like douchebag call out. Followed by prompt deduce Shing feels he needs that. Spend deed do. Carney says my brother Matt is still a douche. Years ago and hasn't donated for some time John the recent series of newsletters have been outstanding. Course, give them a karma would be out of here though. And just the way didn't someone. No, okay. Just a car. You've got karma. Got it. Keri Lynn LaTour. And we think she's of the LaTour familia. No, maybe send us some of your wine some bottles of Latifah. Yeah. Tour dollars forty cents. She's in Nova Scotia just donations being made on behalf of my smoke in. Fortieth birthday. I believe she's on the list. Yes. This was on the twenty first I asked her if she want anything special to commemorate her four decade. Let me take cruises came in from her eye Rene. Clearly county. I asked her she wanted especially commemorate or four decade on the planet. And all she wanted was. Read that sentence again. This donation may be spoken of slowly. This is a big deal fortieth birthday, which is on the twenty first was yesterday. I asked if she wanted anything special to commemorate her fourth decade on the planet, and all she wanted was a no agenda producer credit. There you go. That was her. I mean four. Ventura common in their fourth decade. And all she wanted was a no agenda producer credit. There'd be no war. If everybody felt that way. Thank you, John Lennon. The whole family loves the program. And the media deconstruction has been critical in maintaining our sanity in the post Trump era, which it's where it seems sanity is in short supply as Adam pointed out earlier with everybody jumping in on that face the nation thing thank you for exit. Thank you for existing. Thank you. Thank you for existing. Thank you for all the who's unique cover art, drew me to the podcast, many months ago. I did. Yes. Of course. Please do yes. As deduce fomer jingle jingle ever conceived some karma. And then there's some administrative stuff. Of course. Thank you so much, and we'll also be celebrating Keri Lynn latour's birthday later on our segments. Two. Got karma. Three exects in three associates Mark Valentine being the last one two three four five six, and he's from the UK, and he just needs to fight the list came out with a list, and I'll read the listen we can execute. Well, actually, the first one probably right off the bat. D- do she's. Spendy -duced. Note to Adam entitled money laundering. Yeah. I read it says, we're right? There's money laundering going on there. It's a little longer than that. Dan gambling. Yes. Thank you. Appreciate you note. And then he has a final f- cancer cardiac for my friend feeling Holland. You've got karma. All right nice balance list. Three executive producers three associate executive producers you already if this is your first time in donation segment. You already know that this is part of our value for value model you've probably heard about it. 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Take Turkey knowledge at propagating is this we go out hit people in the mall. Or spend that. Jerry that piece. I sent you. I think from nineteen eighty three New York Times article talking about the CIA how they're recr- how they recruit out of college. And where they recruit it has all the colleges listed. Was it recent? No, yeah. It was recent was in the last few days less will not yesterday. But. All these colleges. Listen. No. I remembered. Seen it yet. No, yeah. Go find it and read it because it's really good for our spot the spook. I think the name of the of the. Oh, yes. No. I did see it come in. But we didn't tell everybody that I spent almost two hours this morning just trying to get Skype started on my machine. So and then it started by that was the scariest part. Yeah. This is welcome to windows. Should tell that story because that the whole story, but just a basis short. I've had it. I've had it through your arms up in the air. And you said I'm going to have to use the Amsterdam rig, which is just a smaller version of what he's got. And as he started hooking it up the other machine gut jealous. Did it went booted? Wait, wait. You're not gonna make that little HP laptop compete with me. Miss the big Dell desktop. No. But it's it's not the only one this problem. Skype has for some reason people have an issue where you start it. In crashes immediately. Now, I've had issues with Skype before I left where it crashed remember during the show. And then I couldn't get a come back. Then. And then the mobile rig exhibit the same behavior. Amsterdam I was able to circumstance it by disconnecting. All USB audio devices then starting up then setting the devices and this morning. I only started this computer off all week. There was no update applied that that least didn't tell me any update was applied to start up normal and Skype would not start. And I spent you know, like updating video drivers could it be this? Could it be that? And then I called you. And I I mean, listen when I call John and say, I need windows help, you know, it's bad. It's bad really bad and told the ultimate advice was just turn on the mobile, Rick and the. And as I was turning on the mobile rig plugging everything into that all of a sudden Skype came back. So. I knew this was gonna Cussing out the machine and these machines near the sensitive. They're very centers. You have to be nice to them. I guess you're right. It's like a car sensitive very sensitive to show the somebody else things fine. It's not limited. All too limited for you. Talked about Bloomberg. I do want to mention that one of the schools that was mentioned that article along with Georgetown, all these major. You gotta read this article. It's very funny. But there's one of the schools mentioned is Johns Hopkins as a as a place where a lot of recruiting is done. And so I. I got me into this finding that article is was this piece or is Bloomberg giving all this money to Johns Hopkins for some reason yesterday did something extrordinary he gave one point eight billion dollars to his al-matar Johns Hopkins, and he said that he did it for scholarship funds for financial aid for people of low or middle income who he doesn't want them to be saddled with student loans after college as so many people are that they will sort of forever be able to give financial aid for a long long time to their students. So that's a wonderful altruistic move. Is he running for president in twenty or what the key is running? I think this particular particular gift follows a pattern his given hundreds of millions of dollars. You can't go on campus. And and look in any direction of Nazi a building that, you know, it's the Bloomberg center for this, which is all which is great. I think this one's a little bit different. Because it goes to the idea that education should be. Able to everyone. I think the really interesting thing about Bloomberg though is not education is his big issue is climate change. And there hasn't been a politician that's been able to turn climate change into a successful political victory. I mean, Al Gore came close and a lot of what he came after the election. But I think that's what you're going to see him move forward on because that's what he believes well till never never win with that. As dumb. Yep. That's what he's doing. You know, there was the evening before I left. There was a big talk show in the Netherlands, the nightly talk show on the public broadcaster. And I told you that these politicians in the EU are all just getting Judy with it because of the PCC report, and this main the the minister of infrastructure in the Netherlands, she has I don't know if they've actually passed this yet, but we need six hundred million euros to save us from dying from climate change on paraphrasing, but it's not far off. And so she's in this talk show and people like, oh, yes, we have to do all this for. Oh. Because you know, you never know what's happening that the too much water. Not enough water. We have to not get our children. We're going to die. And there's this older guys sitting across the table. He just rips into says a hospital that went bankrupt and people were wheeled out on the streets to find other hospitals, and you. Wanna give six hundred million to this bowl crap? It was so beautiful to watch and people going wall. Should that guy's kind of? Right. You know, it's like all you complaining about, you know, the future in this climate change. But we got people actually with IV's strapped to their gurneys on the streets trying to figure out which hospital to be wheeled to they're loving it. But I don't think the public will eat it. I don't think Bloomberg can get far with it either. It's just not a winning strategy. It's just that hasn't worked. I don't think for anybody. Will. We'll see how it goes. He's gonna get past the debates because he's just he's getting I don't think I've ever seen the guy smile dour. He's going to have to stand on at least two apple boxes. You really don't like him being short. No, I don't care about him being desperate. This was a running gag that Letterman used to us. Oh, I didn't realize this. All yeah. Letterman used to go on and on about how short he wasn't. He would did he put his arm out. You know, like how Tali wasn't any lower at lower it lower keep doing this. You keep writing Bloomberg's height. Won't do. Now. Let him and really got out of of the TV business. The evening talk show business right on time because the political politically uncorrected nature of him. I would have heard him eventually. Yeah. Probably I don't think he would. Of course, it is. I just don't know. I don't I don't think he would have been able to do the same stuff. All right. I'm happy to report it's the same in in the Netherlands. It's the same in the United Kingdom. It's all just you know, it's a little different. But it's all your racist. You hate women. You hate Jews view. Hey, whatever it is. Everyone's yelling. Everyone's just yell at each other at the end of civilization. With the end, I'm telling you. Same things acting was going on in the twenties. Off course. This is. Twitter different. It's different. Now. It's different. This is where we fundamentally disagree on things. Yeah. Big time. Yeah. We do. Now. This is something that we probably agree on. Here's Mike Lee. And I got turned onto the speech gave a speech at is the Mike Utah. Oh, all right. I got turned onto the species gives species. The federalist society people are telling us when. Early. Mike Lee, you know, him. Now, I'm asking for the other people who happen to be eased dropping on the conversation. He's the Senator from Utah. And he's he's a very conservative. He was never Trumper. I believe the guy who wanted to it was is he or is that a different guy. No, that's the guy tried to run. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And he was running you'd been running against Romney because Mike Lee is not into cycle. Okay. So they said, Mike Lee predicts I civil war because of the bunch of things, and I looked at and he didn't, you know? This was some hysterical headline. And so I went and listened to the whole speech, and it was bullcrap. They headline was ally. But I got just one clip Bata here that was pretty good. This is Mike Lee talking about the economy. Our economy's full employment, and it's growing fast enough to distract us at least temporarily for more twenty one trillion dollar national debt and our eight hundred billion dollar annual deficit, perhaps it shouldn't be enough. But for the time being it is. But my big concern is what happens women the next bubble bursts. When the next recession hits when the multi trillion dollar deaths approved by state local pension funds. Come do. What happens when next we face a genuine international crisis. What happens when treasury yield rates return to their historic average? And we see our national debt service payments. Go from where they are today, which is about three hundred billion dollars a year, which is not that much higher than they were twenty years ago. When our national debt was what wants seventh of its current size to where they'll go within a couple of years after treasury yield rates return to the restore average, which will be around a trillion dollars a year. Yeah. We're just waiting for the catalyst, aren't we? I'm pretty convinced that it's going to happen. Very soon. Yeah, we're waiting for the catalyst is always gonna end this never the same. So you can't look at us history. Doesn't work with the market. You don't always crashes lightly different ways, you might be. Death is what right Horowitz an I kinda thing fundamentally the things that are really weird right now. He's we have oil going down rapidly. But natural gas biking up. Which is weird. But it is weird national guests has been in a depression probably for about a decade. So it going up under any. Manipulated? I mean, the price of oil definitely manipulated. But then who's manipulating the natural gas? I mean, here's the bottom line. I think Trump is out of his depth. I don't think he can bring economy. I don't think he's got the momentum anymore that he had it was really running on pure adrenaline. I mean, just fundamentally I can't I can't see it. I really can't believe that. It's sustainable you. No, of course by said that five years ago, and they'll go in well. Yeah. But. I'm reminded of these guys. There's a bunch of locals or were writers and became other things sense. He'll pulled relations guys. But the when there was the the boom not to the dot com. Boom. But the real estate boom from probably eighty five to like nine thousand seven when it collapsed there were guys in way early going. This real estate prices are too high. It's gonna pop the bubble's gonna pop pop pop, and then they during that all that almost a decade of saying the bubble's gonna pop if any one of them would have bought the any piece of property they'd be millionaires. They kept says going to publish gonna pop. Yeah. Everything pops eventually, and it did pop, and that was recovered actually beyond where it was at least some parts of the country where which were led a boom areas, and you know, I don't know. You know, I don't know what's going to pop again or not. But. You can't necessarily stay out. You're looking purely real estate, I think it might be multiple multiple at the market the market more realistic. I'm just saying really exemplifying this mentality where he's going to pop. It's going to pop pop. Meanwhile, it's going up and up and up, and you could have made some money just been in and got out fewer nimble, which import unfortunately people. I take a lot of this back. What I just said. Because in less, you're with real estate is not so much of a problem because you doesn't move that much. But with the stock market unless you're in it daily. Your day or something you can't get out fast enough, you wake up you go to work you come home in the markets crash. But that's that's just a small percentage of the population. I mean, you know, yes. Of course, you can make money speculating on stuff, but the the previous economic collapse, you know, that was just such a perfect storm. You know, people could not pay their mortgages. And that just domino all the way through until we just had the create all this fake money and give it to the Bank. So that they could be good again. We put all the bad stuff somewhere else who just did that. Some of the country. Just did that I think it's grease grease just created a new special purpose vehicle, which has all the hall hallmarks of a Junker, no wheels doesn't go anywhere. And it's it's an accounting trick just put the bad stuff in there. And then we do the exact same thing. Yeah. So what have to be something like that? Now, if it's slow by thousand cuts the plug says, I think that's one hand it's nothing to pay student loans. That's pretty big what one point five trillion. That's pretty big slow process. The people not paying back. It's not really like, you know, you you run out of money and you go bankrupt. Now, you're in school. You're still just you get the still get your your loan. Paying back your loan while you're getting it I understand. But I'm saying the people were supposed to paid back our hook or crook are paying it back. Since you can't get out of it. So. Yeah. So where is him? I think healthcare is got to be the one. That's that's what's bankrupting people. Well. I think I don't think it will maybe could be it's bankrupting me. Will. Possible. But it seems to be if your member the two thousand seven this isn't boring people the two thousand seven eighteen member letters credit weren't being except. S four boating before that crash there wasn't there were more signals. I agree and there's not anything like that going on. But then again before the twenty nine crash. I've looked at it enough. I think I might be wrong. There wasn't anything. It would just crash happened in every bounce right back. Dente just drifted to the bottom. But when it happened. There was all these I remember I got the front pages of all these papers GNA head of the Bank. This is just Bill. There's no reason this ridiculous. This happened there whereas sound financial condition every banker in the world kept saying this, and it was on the front page of all the papers. Don't worry about it. We're in sound financial condition. Everything's fine. Well, I already know what what the what the history books will look like when we look back on the huge crash of let's say twenty twenty just to make it to make it a fun number. We look back at the historic crash and the deepest depression of all depressions ever, you'll see hipsters with ratted tattered clothing dragon half dead dog behind him. And then they'll be nothing but piles of e scooters and other dacas bikes everywhere that no one can afford to us. And the companies and banks have been can't afford to pick them up. Exactly. That's what it's going to look like. It'll be the best of times in the worst of times. Hey, but at least we can get somewhere cheap on a scooter. If the scooter still work. Yes. I didn't find that boring. Actually, I I enjoy thinking about those things. Well, no, I don't enjoy. What could be but thinking through it will. Luckily, talking about people trying to copy to what we how we do business plans. Canadian this from the CBC apparently Canada's going to end the whole because of us, but it wasn't all about economics tonight. We'll look at the politics involved the brakes to help some media companies, and we'll ask the finance minister why it's all going to cost so much because one thing is certain Canada will be going deeper in the red for years to come. The full economic stable be focused on things like competitiveness and the focus on drying, the benefit from the great trade deals we've been signing and moving forward on over the past years to do this. The liberals have come up with more than sixteen billion dollars in new investments and tax breaks for businesses. But that will mean continued deficits remember that promise to balance things by next year. Well, there is no balanced budget for the foreseeable future. All of this is essentially a response to an unpredictable unpredictable rather US administration one with protectionist impulses, low corporate taxes and very deep pockets as David Cochran explains. It's clear the Trudeau government has a lot riding on the outcome. Like everything these days. Bill more knows fiscal update as a response to President Donald Trump one series of measures to respond to US tax cuts to encourage businesses to invest in their own growth. Create more good well-paying jobs others to steer Canada away from its dependence on the US market share a trade agreement with the United States. Doesn't mean we'll always agree with those are the goals. Here's how the liberals want to get there to stay competitive with the US. There are billions in tax cuts for businesses to help them expand by a quick -ment over the next five years a one hundred percent right off for manufacturing and processing equipment a one hundred percent right off for cleantech investment. Tripling the right off for all other business investments. There's also more than a billion dollars to diversify trade, including cash to boost roads rails imports to get goods to Asia. And Europe Canadians. We'll get the Bill for the conservatives warned. This all comes with a big cost. They are putting our future in a reckless state of danger by spending our tomorrow on there today. That's right. Tomorrow. Another funny thing about this is a little thing. They slipped in which I thought was unique. I didn't realize how subsidize the media is in Canada. Oh, yeah. And the CBC I guess gets over almost a billion and a half dollars a year, which is a nice operating budget. You know, the BBC is multiple billions. It's ridiculous billions. But apparently going to go overboard and give almost a billion to just just any oh media company giving money to the media. Hey, can we get in on this? Podcast the candidate age win journalists around the world are being accused of producing fake news. The turtle government has decided to invest in local news nearly six hundred million dollars over the next five years to support media outlets struggling with dwindling revenues. It includes a fifteen percent tax credit to encourage Canadians to subscribe to digital news media and giving charitable status to nonprofit news outlets to help them fundraise. But perhaps the most important measure a new tax credit to help cover the labor costs of producing original news content. Locally. Wow. You know, the rebel, you know, them the rebel media. This is a link from the troll room. But I I opened up just in to DOE is buying Canadian media. They say. A coup. A key question. Any of the money? No click. Well, they say we're not for sale. That's that's their stance in any of the money. They're saying they don't want it question. That remains unanswered for now is which organizations will be eligible for the new measures which ones will be excluded. I think you're right. The government said the package will aim to help quote, trusted news organizations. Yes. Let me translate that into plain English. There's an election next year. And if you're a journalist who want in unto does slush fund he has to know he can trust you so no tough questions for doors cabinet. No embarrassing investigations. You must demonize any Trudeau critics as bigoted, homophobic or Islam phobic, and you have to promote those policies and everything from the carbon tax to open border mass immigration. So here would be a fun test. It wouldn't be too hard. For us to do. Just a little podcast weekly one. What we pretty much do the same stuff, except we add a and we just. We just do this. We to laurel. Yeah. We just say, hey to does. Great. And then we'll say stuff like I can't believe anyone wants investigate and you can trust the guy a we just do that. And then may we we'll get some money. I think as a plan, however on the other side, what's interesting if this would ever come our way and people never really catch these explanations. We do them all the time. Why we are not a five, oh one C three non profit organization. There's a number of reasons for it one which recently explained on the gramatica show, which people should go. Listen to it was one of the most recent episodes, but also three if we. Signed up for that. We have to have charter and we have to stick to it. And basically the government would have some elements of control over us. Correct. Yeah. Absolutely. So. You don't want a lot more paperwork, and you have the IRS on your back. And well, yes, I mean, that's what I'm saying. So they can say, well, we don't think you're really doing the you're not really independent or whatever they could just say, oh, you seem to one sided so sorry. Can't have that Trump apologised can't have no money for that. No. Did I read the grind merica? God deployed formed from PayPal. No, I didn't hear that. I think it was. Why would they ever do? That would. I they're pretty. I think I think that I think it happened. Hold on a second. I don't think. So. Okay. Well, you don't think you have my opinions in very high regard today. Let's see. They were suspended. Yes. They were to what. Okay. I had they after come here. They posted a screen shot. You can no longer do business with pay pal? After review we decided to permanently limit your account as we found potential risk associated with it. So we will hold put a hold of one hundred eighty day hold on the money to jeez. Yeah. I've heard that. I don't know if they're back or not. Maybe they are back. Now. The definitely was some problem. Could have been who knows what we know. This is part of what I think is very, well, it's interest- interesting times to live in when you have a lot of services and a lot of fundamental things that we come to rely on our technology based. So the most recent one is Airbnb actually have a clip woman just share that. So we can listen to it. Listings Israeli settlements in the okay pied Westbank. The company says it's made the decision because settlements the cool. The dispute between Israelis and Palestinians Palestinians, have welcomed the decision Israel has cooled it shameful and threatened legal action. Now, whether you agree with it or not is completely irrelevant. If you have a house that you kind of count on the income for, you know, from Airbnb, and they just universally decide what deployed forming you because you you're the wrong person, you live in the wrong place, or whatever the reason is which is well within their complete right to do that. Yeah. Dating to do that. You gotta be careful how much rely on this stuff. Will this is the same thing? This is a a fractional of micro services architecture. Yeah. Except this is the consumer side. Consumer sizes just defacto goes out. Yes out. Yeah. You know, it's a it's just a big version of the small problem. Yeah. And it's just it's just a huge problem. And you I think Alex Jones by being Deger. Daddy is in this in this regard. He wanted totally convinced that he pushed the envelope. Just to get the the problem. I agree. I think he did too. Yeah. Because he actually. He he was he called me and said don't come on the show anymore. I tell you that. Yeah. This is a long time ago. Not long time. When the last time I cancelled. Yeah. Yeah. I said I don't wanna go on the show. I don't want you coming on the show because they're going to go after your money. That's what he literally said. Really? Yeah. Don't nice of him to keep you from coming on the show. Of course, it was a show once or twice, right? Yeah. But he wanted me to come on the show. I can't remember what it was for subsitution when he was. Oh, yes, you're right. You're right. The substitute. You remember better nine two. When I was like, well, you really shouldn't come on the show because I was talking to was producer. Then he calls me said they're gonna go after you do don't do it. It's not what you don't want it. And I think he yes, I think he's probably does do that in purpose for for making a point. And you got a that. I do. I mean. Doesn't help him or anybody else. But yeah, I mean these payments systems. We're going to see it's it's an issue. Bitcoin baby. I hate to say, hey, how's it bitcoin doing holy crap? People must be jumping out of windows about. Now. I feel sorry for the people last thanksgiving that we're. Going up to it was probably fifteen thousand thanksgiving last year. It wasn't. It was going on the year that according I think it was Horowitz had this anecdote about all these young ins bitcoin nut balls going there. Thanksgiving dinner with their Lambeau bitcoin. Get them all get them. All Jack W'll jacked up about bitcoin. And then they this thanksgiving's it'll be a little different. You'll broke me son. I took your advice. And now, I'm broke being your mama living in a shelter. So what is it? Now, it is now forty five twenty five it was around six to last around sixty five two weeks ago. Here's my favorite response. Let me see was it really, buddy. I think you're right. It was. Yeah. It was near Christmas time. You're right. That's when it went up to eighteen thousand twenty thousand. Here's the response. I like the best. Hey, one bitcoin is still worth one bitcoin. It's my favorites. My favorite response because it's true. If you use a purely as as a transmission mechanism, and you're in and out. Yeah. It's fantastic. So much more efficient than banking. Well, no. But the fishy part. Yes. Very efficient. You're going to argue that that you can send money within twenty minutes to someone guaranteed through bitcoin verses three days rigmarole with banks. Money is pretty efficient and not internationally doesn't work internationally. Could be no it is. So I know because I have a daughter, and we transfer money usually usually the wrong way from me to her. That's usually the bad the bad transfer financing terrorism. Yeah. It's it's so yes, it's a very efficient payment network. For that not for buying stuff. But for just transferring money, I think it's fantastic. In canada. They also have a problem with depression, not the depression, which is what we're talking about which twitching back to depression. So the Canadians. I get a kick out. I'm not gonna do disconnection thing forever. But I kind of a kick out of some of these stories I want you to play. These clips about depression and play the this one just another word for lobotomy close to a million Canadians live with depression that actually resists treatment shock therapy has long been considered ineffective approach, but it can come with serious side effects. So doctors are exploring less invasive treatments that go straight to the source of the problem. Casper's he explains it's hard to beat some quality time with your son. He can throw it a little bit harder at me for skies law. It's a welcome break. Look at your target for the past several years. She struggled with debilitating depression. I don't even. Know how to explain it. Because it's not angering. It's. Strating? Has what's known as treatment resistant, depression, Sewri interference his major depressive disorder, which has been chronic going on for seven years, and she has either failed to respond fell tolerates a number of aids person treatments. So earlier this year SaaS lawf-, try something different agreeing to be part of a study at Sunnybrook hospital in Toronto that uses a noninvasive approach to treating this kind of depression with her shaved and fitted with a metallic headgear FAZ lov was placed in an MRI. Once inside doctors, then used ultrasound beams to heat, and disrupt the precise part of the brain that causes depression. As an adjustment to the circuits of the brain. And so the I got it all goes directly. That's makes a cut a lesion in that and stops firing when it shouldn't be fired. Holy crap. Is that permanent? Oh, my God clip of the day. A lobotomy an actual cyber knife modern lobotomy. Yes. Well, let's go to the next. This is another one. This is another another word for electroshock therapy. Other ways to treat the illness. What you just heard a very high frequency magnetic pulse. One of those is brain stimulation treatment that uses magnets instead of electronic seizure. Magnetic seizure therapy was really come evolved out of this idea that producing a seizure for therapeutic purposes is very effective in depression. Jan. Treating myself. Bottom me, they said, it's none invas- noninvasive thus. It's good. Just penetrated through your skull with was it infrared laser Jewish sonic, sonic. Yeah. Oh, that's non invasive. Well, I guess technically. What is the definition of invasive? It doesn't leave a whole. I guess just a bird leave whole even though you're. Now, this is to me is the classic example of calling one thing something else to make it to make some radio listed this stuff. The same thing. Now, I want to just throw this in. But. I was looking into the history of the sect Amies not recently, but sometime ago when I was doing my me material. And if you look into the history of 'Sekt Amies vasectomies were were called the were were used as substitute for for. What is the balls off? It's called a eunuch. No, you cut the balls off as a name for that. Castrate castration. So apparently in the twenties, or I think would during our era when we're all in the eugenics and all this stuff Americans in particular were castrating people, especially I think a lot of blacks and a lot of other people in the south mostly they would they get in prison to say while you're chasing around little boys. And so we're gonna wasn't this part of the society of America's programmed, and they do that as well. They may have. Yeah. Maybe. So what would happen though, was it when they were castrating people. They've knocked them out and they cut the nuts off in. And then they throw a friend's giving. Take the nuts Cookham into greatly. So then they the guys apparently were irked by this and they'd come in and track down the doctor who cut their nuts off and kill them. And this is becoming a real problem. If your doctor so one doctor who's I don't have the details to the don't have this paperwork in front of me. But there's a very famous doctor who invented the vest Secta me as a substitute for castration because it did the exact same things did call him the guy down all these things that were just sensually was a castration, but with, but it was done inside the balls inside the nut sack it so the guy would notice look, I'm still good. And so he was happy camper when go kill the doctor, which used you. So I'm so my commentary about people can't get themselves castrated by getting the sec me. I don't think is completely out of out of bounds. Snow? I'm yes. Okay. I don't want to spend too much time on the Secta me off and castration. I'm still at the lobotomy stage. This is seen to be like some breakthrough. This is not a breakthrough you need to run away from this. And is this paid for by the great Canadian health insurance? I'm sure yeah. Well, I have a companion story to that not as funny, but we do have some issues a well known drug thought to reduce PTSD symptoms, and suicidal thoughts could actually make them worse. A new study tracked patients who took presumption for eight weeks and found the drug worsened nightmares and didn't do much to less than suicide thoughts. Two of the participants had to undergo emergency inpatient psychiatric care though. No, one attempted suicide during the study the results back up a study from earlier this year that also showed precise and brought on new or worsened suicidal thoughts in eight percent of military veterans suffering from PTSD about that some kind of big farm of thing that is making it worse. Instead of better surprising. Yeah, I'm stunned. Maybe they should do you. Find information like maybe they should go over to Ken the navy and get you want. What's the name of that procedure? I don't know. Come on would mention it in the clip. I don't remember the mentioning it. Yeah. I wanna listen to it. Again, two million Canadians live with depression that actually resists treatment. John therapy has long been considered ineffective approach, but can come obviously with serious side effects. So doctors are exploring less invasive is shock therapy. Still really thing people. You shock therapy. Still will it in candidate using it using magnets because she's hit a jolt to but that's still happens today. Shock therapy. I believe it does that go straight to the source of the problem. Catherine explains it's hard to beat some quality time with your son. You can throw it a little bit harder. At me. I'm really appreciating the whole the whole clip now, you know, throwing a ball with your son back and forth. North to slip to this noninvasive thing. This is almost a native ad for this procedure. It's a welcome break. Look at your target for the past several years. She struggled with debilitating depression. I don't even know how to explain it. Because it's not angering. It's. Frustrating. Trump syndrome. She sounds very very even keeled here though, look at her. She's totally at a candidate for Trump syndrome. Okay. Trump derangement syndrome, you mean? Yes. Strating? Sasse law has what's known as treatment resistant, depression, treatment, treatment resistant. Depression, which means the shit doesn't work on her treatment resistant. So it's TR de interference his major depressive disorder, which has been chronic going on for over seven years. Second in the clip. She's join a ball back forth. Whether kid if he'll say look at the tar is just saying bunch of dumpsters does where they pick. It sounds like a kid is a retard that's the province rose Bush a little kid, and so she chose the ball over his head mistake. Sorry, interference interfering Laming a non existent entity for her fuck up. Oh, so it was like her treatment resistant, depression interfered. I don't know what interfere. But it seems like she's one of the plane, but it's also we need some disclaimers for this treatment invisible. Forces may cause you to throw things in we're directions. Has either fell to respond foul the to-, right? A number of aids to person treatments. So earlier this year SaaS lawf- tried something different agreeing to be part of a study at Sunnybrook hospital in Toronto that uses a noninvasive approach to treating this kind of depression like they've categorized treatment resistant depression, as as a kind of depression, isn't it? Just just your. I dunno. Okay. Noninvasive approach. I'm writing this down with her head shaved and fitted with a metallic headgear FAZ love was placed in an MRI. Once inside doctors, then used ultrasound beams to heat, and disrupt the precise part of the brain that causes depression. Think of it as an adjustment to the circuits of the brain adjustment to the circuits of the brain. Will you know, this is pioneering work. Because you couldn't you can treat anybody with stuff like this. This is going back to mediaeval times. The am I got it all goes directly. That's makes a cut a lesion in that circuit and stops firing. When it shouldn't be fantastic. That's just fantastic. This is one of the best things. I've heard in weeks. Well, seriously, I love this. We're going back to medieval times rebranding, it rebranding it, and then would just cutting people's lobotomy giving them the bottom. He's what exactly do you cut out with the lobotomy? He cut the frontal lobe frontal lobe. Yeah. Yeah, they played all you know. I'm surprised. It wasn't some nice music in the back. I think I might maybe obsessed with this now. I really got into this come on. This is crazy. I did not expect. Well. In maybe just old fashioned. But the the whole lobotomy thing and didn't we kind of get rid of that it was actually faddish for a while. In in recent in recent history, how long ago were lobotomies performed in performed into the fifties. But isn't don't you usually then become like kind of docile and very very, quiet. Yeah. It's the solution. It's a it's a solution. It's our final solution for Canadia. Imagine all the people. Well, yeah. That'd be fun. Start to think if you people here for ten eighty eight this is a precursor to show ten eighty nine which is thirty three squared. Which is a big deal. Kaelin this stores at the top of this one hundred sixty one dollars and eighty cents. He says happy Turkey day. Donald barrage ski. Spokane valley Washington went to five and he sent a note in federation federation paper federation paper guys as we enter the flat. See the fact season thanksgiving Christmas, I offer some financial nourishment in no agenda in the no agenda lean season. Let me recommend a documentary human zoos, America's forgotten history of scientific racism. Look for it. Sounds like. Rom com. Among other things they've documented rom com. A million other things the documentary points out that that you that you gen-x which were just talking about was the scientific consensus all ninety seven percent of scientists agree. Yeah. In the twenties and thirties. Cheers and beers. Donald the fire bottles viscount of eastern, Washington. Yes. Atheists should. Get a couple other notes on his read quickly before I go on the list is net long. But we do have a Timothy of the no fixed a meet up. Hope he'll should local ones. First Chinese restaurant. I got a box to. Yes, we got these fortune cookies that were no agenda messages inside. It was really great. It is very fun. What did you get kick out? Manning. I got some manning stuff. And I got a Sharpton. Yes. If you if you don't if people just give these cookies to someone did not a bad idea. You just give them to somebody. And don't tell them what what the deal is. And they looked wet. Dow what I mean at least who's with us for the break. She said I wish I had one hundred of 'em TB handing about everybody. That exactly for that. Exact reason it would what does this mean? Well, sure Comference in a note longtime producer, they has a it was a little piece of portion a little bird that. I didn't get one of those bird. Sold out. I really have to go way away from the mic because I know it's killing you. But as cute, and I wanna thank you for that onward cer-, Kevin McLaughlin, the viscount of Lunen locus North Carolina one hundred eight dollars ninety cents zippy the pinhead in one hundred eight dollars and eighty cents e- Ian field. One hundred Thomas Burke hundred cer- code monkey and Renner South Dakota hundred Alan d Peterson one hundred rose Shevess, Scottsdale. Arizona boob eight oh eight and she says now you have a fabulous pair. Boop. Boop, sir. Jonathan of the double bladed, paddle and Maplewood. 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Big number a little bit of housekeeping before we know thank everyone under fifty dollars that we have had a spam issue at seems amongst a lot of members of the no agenda family. You're getting blamed for it. It's not your fault. But I think we've both looked into this people receiving uninfected word document apparently coming from you, which it is not also your machine is. Not infected. In fact, I don't think has anything to do with your Email other than they're using your Email address as a. Confidence. Hack will the all using old Email sent into the show and sent from other people from about a year ago from people's own machine. Oh that could be. Yeah. I think once you get once you get the virus in a doc. Then you start sending. I mean, the goes back and forth between people now to it's like very weird. But at no point, do I see anywhere in the headers your Email server your service or at any any of that used, but it's really crap because everyone is e mailing me. Saying John's got virus? Emailing me too. Yeah. Well, no, people are frayed Email you and the Email me I'm afraid Email them because I got a virus from him. Oh, that's funny. No, it's not a virus. Usually that file is is it doesn't work in the thing is if the document was any good know, let's put it this way. If there was a virus? We'd be putting donate to the show in the in the in the attached document. Point to some crappy as document with the virus that I think goes into it seems to work with outlook in the goes in an Email outlook thing. Yeah. But somewhere the headers are being rewritten. Or the headers aren't even being rewritten. Just the replied to or the from field is being rewritten as from you. But the entire path of the Email is nothing to do with you. It's very destructive. I don't think there's any way to stop it. Really? Yeah. I think it some some divorce hater, some MAC, guy donnas. Do this to him because he hates the MAC. Oh. Really? People hate me. Oh, well, that's not okay. I should know. That's not nice. All right. Well, anyway, just everyone knows we really not much. We can do with it. Have you see that? I'm not mailing anything that says that you know. No. And you know, people I love when people day, I looked at this document is nothing in it. I sent a copy to thanks. Thanks still want that. All right. So we can't do much about that. But. Eventually, I think it will go away if people stop emailing to other people as probably good idea, and I would like to thank everyone who supported the show today, including those under fifty dollars typically for reasons of anonymity. But we do have people on our subscriptions, you can check those out a divorce dot org slash NA. It is very important to keep the show just to keep it running as you can see were here. Thanksgiving day. Not a holiday everywhere, we realize that still reason to to bring you a show and for the people in America kind of an extra bonus. 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Thank you all for supporting the no agenda show after all your producers. It's what you do. We appreciate divorce dot org slash any. Obama had a big conference big big who how the Obama foundation. Oh, yeah. Here ios. You saw this now. But here's dip Obama going into direction following in the footsteps of Bill. Yes, he does. Well, you might. Make some money on it. Now, the Daily Mail. Interestingly had this big headline saying oh bomb assist. Trump has mommy issues. So I go, and I listen to their little clip there that they've clicked out of context. It was not at all about Trump. But it was kind of funny. He was about climate change and about all of us. I didn't take it as a dig at Trump. But that's what the Daily Mail thought. But here's what he said. But emissions by thirty percent without any smelly. We'd all have to go back to caves and live off middle fire. You know, you know. Smartphones and all that stuff, which would buy us probably another twenty thirty years for that technological breakthrough. That's necessary. The reason we don't do it is fun. What are you talking about is their technological breakthrough? That's coming in twenty thirty years or we just going to start nuclear now. Probably another twenty thirty years for that technological breakthrough. That's necessary. The reason we don't do it is because. We are still. Confused blind. Shrouded with. Pate anger. Braces them. Mommy issues. I'm in till he may actually mean Trump there to the insiders that people who are chuckling, I guess, but I didn't take it that way. He's just any talk about all of us were all he's basically reading Twitter. We. With stuff. And. And so if that's the case, then the single most important thing that we have to invest in. Is not all and look, I'm a pew support of science and technological research and social science and. Evidence based learning all that good stuff. I'm people call me spot for a reason about believe hold on. When did people start calling him Spock for a reason? Nobody calls them Spock. He says he he said right there people come you spec. For reason damning all that good stuff. I'm people call me spot for a reason, I believe in reason and logic and all these enlightenment values. I've never heard anyone. Call him Spock because he so reasoned. But really we have to invest in is people. Got to get people to figure out how they worked together. A three. How do we get people to work together in a cooperative? Constructive way. Suck it in Patel. I played that clip just to play the next clip. Because what he's saying here is we we will all die. We will not make it out of the climate change hellhole. We all are terminated by excessive heat wither, I phones because we can keep them. Because people don't work together because we haven't figured out how to work together. And then he goes into tell you a history of his political career in a nutshell, two minutes in and how he worked together with everybody. Or did he here? Here's the interesting thing that happens. Or when you go through the experience of being president. So I'm not sure that's funny. He said, here's the interesting thing about president. Or when you go being going through the experience of being president. I'm not maybe I missed something in the context. But people thought that was funny here. Here's the interesting thing that happens when you're president. Or when you go through the experience of being president. So why that funny? Saying I think what this audience is thinking saying he's trying to say it. But he's not saying is that I was President Donald Trump just went through the experience. He's not president. He's not my president. He's got it got it. Remember, we're talking about working together with people you may not agree with working together to save humanity. Here's how he did it. You're a community organizer and you're struggling to try to get people to recognize each other's common interests. And you're trying to get some project done in a small community and he start thinking. Okay. You know, what this alderman's knucklehead, they're resistant to doing the right thing. And so I need to get more knowledge. More power more influence to work together, really have an impact. And so you go to the state legislature and look around and if these jokes well using our word. Your word in particular say are because I got it from Tina. So maybe it's Chicago thing Jim oaks. Okay. Maybe could be. So you know, he didn't work with people as a community organizer dumb because they're they're knuckleheads. No good. So I need more power more power. So I went to Senate, and then there's just so that I can really have an impact. And so if you go to the state legislature, and let's state legislature. Jim oaks may be. Not all of them. But I'm just saying, you know, you you you start getting that sense of this is just like the old have been right? So many do something different. So you so then you make sure there's a sex scandal, including a celebrity so you can get a Senate seat free by getting kicked out all kinds of backroom dealing so presto, your Senator then you go to a Senate and looking around they're like, oh, man. That's worked together. Everybody working together. And then when you're president you're sitting in these international meetings that has like the twenty and you got all these world leaders, and it's the same people. That's how you worked together. That's how we save the world by calling people names. That's perfect. What he thinks everyone's an idiot but him that's exactly right. You got all these world leaders, and it's the same people. Which is really interesting. Same dynamics is just that there's a bigger spotlighted. There's a bigger stage. But I'm only partly joking about that the. The nature of human dynamics does not change from level. The little. Which has been quoted saying sometimes like, okay? What do you think he's about to quote, which he's been quoted many times apparently? W e b boys. Most of what you need to learn you could actually does reduction Seuss debts. Dr Seuss doctors because you know, there's a story the snatches, and like people the sneakers stars think that the better than the ones who don't have stars. And they got an attitude. The Laura is trying to tell people don't cut down the trees. Fissure going to die. It's all pretty much there. And the reason. Perfect example of how working together can save us from the death of climate change with their phones, we'll be able to keep them with some technological revolution. Thirty years. I'm surprised Dr. Some other show, but he did a lot of racist cartoons were world too. I miss Obama. So I'm watching democracy. Now, they have an interview this guy Ronen Bergman. And. He wrote a book he's is Rayleigh journalists viscous journalists wrote a book about the nation homeless. No not about. And we have a new brand it's shock homeless. Anyway, I got a kick out of this bonehead question that was asked him. Because if you listen to this question, the guy this is that they send Hsieh's whatever the guy's name is on democracy. Now, the guy riceville post, I think, and he he's phrases. This question is I'm listening to it. I'm saying he's describing our country. And this is bonehead question on D in from the from the outside the Israeli intelligence from the outset occupied a shadowy realm. One Jason to yet separate from the country's democratic institutions the activities of the intelligence community. Most of it shinned bed and the massad under the direct command of the prime minister took place without any effective supervision by Israel's parliament, the Knesset or by any other independent external bodies, what damage has been done to the democratic. It's the Touche's of Israel as a result of this almost parallel situation instead of the civilian controlling the military was almost as if the military community control the government. You mean like the military industrial complex controls Trump or verse the trolls Obama, oh, gee, that doesn't happen everywhere. I'm so surprised to this question. Now, the guy neat nobody sees the irony of this question because it's essentially the same as when Ron Paul said the took over the country and sixty two of the Kennedy and. You have this shadow government, which seems to be running on its own juices because you're there guest the president. They have all these issues. But nobody sees the irony the way he asked the question. So the guy even the guy Berkman when answers the question doesn't quite see it, and he kind of answers it straight. Well, fair things. I Israel is a liberal democracy in the Middle East, but is also faces severe threats and living under the trauma of the holocaust. And I think that the the new Israelis Jews live the Palestine hold those who came from the holocaust and establish the state of Israel. They drew three main lessons from the holocaust. I that will always someone there will always be somewhat who wants to kill them. The other non Jews would do anything to help third that they need to have Israel safe heaven refuge, in guarded with whatever possible when you have this at the Bickel Buell line at every decade, you'll pry Nemesio chief Edward theory. Not so VJ Singh. Sadovy rock yester- Medina when they want to eliminate you Coley destruction take physical actions to do this. Then you left with basically one conclusion these railings will cook a rising kill I paying very little tribute to international law international norms and building these two sets of flow one four regular Manders in one for the intelligence community and the and the military. Tell you undermine our democracy, our democratic institutions of intelligence agencies. Yeah. Jeeze Reisen kill. I is the name of the book when a look at it. I have two more from this guy. Interesting. This is about the assassination of Arafat, even though he didn't wasn't technically assassinated. And so they asked him about this because he documents all these murders one after the other in this book claiming that Israel's killed more people. And I think included all the drone strikes out Obama did as being just a kind of a murderous regime. This guy is Arab or Jew Jew. Killing Arafat dates back to nineteen sixty eight. Tokyo was appointed. No just chief of but the chief of the umbrella organization called the PLO the Palestinian Liberation Organization. And the the idea is really defense, desperate. They were sending Arafah the Pilo was sending groups of terrorists from Jordan to Israel. They couldn't catch them. They couldn't catch him an attempt to invade Jordan and killed them end up in a catastrophe. And then the the chiefs of the Israeli navy came with what he said is a solution. He saw that movie American will be two in candidate and said, I can do the same. I can take a steam hypnotize him Jason Bourne start program him and send him to Jordan to kill you. And believe it or not the chiefs of his Rayleigh intelligence military intelligence, and we'll took that very seriously. They gave him a Palestinian prisoner who fit the profile that the psychiatrist thought would be suitable for such a process, they gave him a training facility would live immune issue, and for months, he trained that person until one night to said, okay? He's he's okay. He's done his program that Palestinian cross the Jordan river and up the crossing his signal a gun in okay to his muster psychiatrist. And he carried the gun in a Tokyo, wireless communication device. And the psychiatrist said he's now going to kill out. This was something like one AM at five in the morning. The operatives of Israeli antennas for Steve report from another agent said that someone Stephen came to Jordanian police station and told the policeman the stupid Isreaeli thought that the hip. Ties me, but I was just playing role. I'm loyal to our please take me to about to swear allegiance to the Palestinian Authority this bit. Sometimes Rayleigh Jason bull. Looks more. Like in spectacles, Zolt there's a bit of funny story, but the stores were let's funny. To kill numerous times and a Ronin today. Ultimately succeed there are of course, many questions about our fats final death. Whether it was natural or not. So I thought that was amusing. Well, yeah. The I was actually waiting for to be. Hey, you know, they tried to hypnotize didn't work take me to honor fight. And then he kills them. Yeah. That didn't happen. Now. If you want to hear the rest of it. Yes. Yes. I do. I need another story about killing Arafat eat weight. Should did. Did the Israelis actually do it or not in? This is his experts. Let's just just from the top of my head from memory wasn't. He kind of like in some kind of standoff and his his his camp was surrounded. He died of some some strange disease. Right. But I thought I thought it was something that he was everything was surrounded and he died from that disease inside kind of surrounded compound in my remember correctly. They tried many times and the people that was in nineteen eighty two when Ariel Sharon Israeli minister of defense. Daytime ordered to take out a commercial airline with hundreds of passengers on board in order to kill Yasser Arafat, but the the chiefs of Israeli air force rebelled against him, and they want they didn't want to be staying in this horrific war crimes, and they didn't want to violate the war of the ethics of world of the idea, and they prevented the operations from from happening to questions to question. There isn't a acuity and few different reports about that. Let me just tell you that a few months before demise mysterious demise, Israel, Prime Minister, Ariel met with President Bush, the White House, the president told mister prime minister, we heard the plans that you have plans to kill us that we want to. Promise us to promise me that you will not assessment Arafah Errol Sherwood said I see your point Mr President. Now president of course, on the Senate still the promise said, I really wish you to promise me to do that. Sharon said, Mr President, you'll making a very strong argument, but the president-elect to go until prime minister, Cheryl promised in his voice that he will not kill Slater Africa dies of mysterious disease. And I think in time we will have the opportunity to tell the story behind that. In the meantime, team is convinced of course, that the massad always railing -tendance killed the reason to hide the real story was not because of the Palestinians. But this because this would be a striking violation to a very clear promise by rating prime minister to American president. Is that so? Mine is that is this book about Arafat, or what does this book about all document of all the assassinations? The Israelis have done and homeless and home in there. I read that. And just looking at the theories of Arafat's death is quite a number of them. Yeah. Interesting. All right. That was a lightning. Oh, yeah. Ver- very lighthearted to just a final final because the papers were filled with it when I was leaving. Leading London is that is very worried about what would be disclosed if President Trump should actually open up a lot of this Russia. Russia gate investigation. The particular what role am I six British intelligence played in helping I think put together the report that led to Carter pages wiretap and couple of other issues. Right. And this is of course, not being really reported on much at all as as not here at New York Times anyone done anything Wall Street Journal. And what they're saying is it boils down to exposure of people, and we don't want to reveal sources and methods. So somehow the British intelligence appears to have been use the word meddling in our elections. I would think so. Ringer. Yeah. Say right. But why do we have a single? Okay. Besides asking me. You're just joking. When you know, I was going to say, why doesn't even Washington in your time's pretty much dominated by CIA employees. Yes. Yes. So this professional courtesy is what you're saying. Yeah. Well, you're no agenda show is reporting on at what we can there's not very much. In fact, that guardian article that I got it from is behind a firewall or pay while you can only get it if yahu reprinted it. And also telegraph article about it. But it's all it's the Brits are talking about it. But we're not doing our typical copy and paste into the US publication. But it does seem that there's some fishy. Business going on. Yeah. Heads should roll final clip. For me. You have a new mayor in San Francisco. About three months of mayor's been in office. How long has the new mayor in? Yeah. Maybe six months three three three three three. Yeah. To the what's her name? I really don't Bravo. Charlie name. I can't remember name of something crazy. Okay. She ran on a promise that within three months. She would clean up. The poop. Clean up. The poop in San Francisco. And I have a report earlier this year, we surveyed one hundred fifty three blocks downtown San Francisco and uncovered a dangerous mix of trash needles and feces the story gained national attention and became a major issue in the mayor's race, then candidate London breed promised a cleaner, San Francisco within months if elected measure that by you know, like not having feces on our sidewalks and also urine and other things that we see the needles and many of the other talents that exist that would all be just saying that it will be eliminated. I am saying that there will be a significant difference where it's noticeable. We're back on the streets to find out if she made good on that wedge producer, and I research twenty of the dirtiest blocks in downtown San Francisco across all twenty blocks. We found thirty five used drug needles. That's down thirty nine percent compared to our last survey ten months ago, but like before we. Spotted trash on every block. We also saw feces on all twenty blocks in total we found feces one hundred and fifty nine times that's a sixty seven percent increase and in a bizarre. New twist someone appears to be using feces to graffiti sidewalks in the city seriously. We compared the mayor's first three months in office to the three months prior and found complaints to the city about needles feces and trash have all increased is San Francisco cleaner today than before you took office. I think it is because the regular basis we've invested more resources were spending more time trying to get people house, and we're focusing on those areas, we know are the most problematic. I am doing everything I can to invest the right resources into making San Francisco a lot cleaner. And it takes time to get to a better place. Even though complaints up since you've been elected. You don't think it's because the city is actually dirtier. I don't think it's because the city is actually I think it's because more people are reporting the challenges that internet of the people who simply think you didn't accomplish what you said, you were started as mayor couple months ago that three months promise, and you see a difference in areas, it is noticeable. There is a huge difference certain parts of the city, but you would acknowledge that he doesn't actually have data or any kind of metrics to show that definitively. Well, we have what we see visually. But it what point will walking over feces and not be part of the norm in this city. I hope sooner rather than later any idea when rather than later talking months. Any time line? I hope sooner rather than later. Hey, what are you working for the Austin chamber of commerce with his clip? Oh, yeah. I'm just letting them know I'm watching them here in Austin because you know, we're next. Poop will be on the streets. And that does help with real estate prices. Let's be honest. All right, everybody. We are shutting it down for today. On your Thanksgiving Day edition of the best podcast in the universe. And I will supervise some food which is already well on way. And we'll be back Sunday with another addition of the no agenda show. Please remember us at divorce dot org slash NA until then coming to you from downtown Austin, Texas capital of the drone star state FEMA region. Number six governmental maps in the five by nine Cleo in the common law condo in the morning, everybody. I'm out of curry from northern Silicon Valley where I want to remind people on this Thanksgiving Day that electron thermometer is your best friend in the kitchen on John CD turn on Sunday right here on no agenda until then. Donate to know. They give us just we get there. We donate to agenda. It's the show. That's rarely you donate to. Oh agenda this John speak, donate to know. Scientists turn to Clea. I. At the. Small. Small was so bad. It was like. Emme? Too. Tissot Jackson new process. Way. Be hit. Kidding lunch at? Chipper late. The tortilla. In the race. ESP? Fail. All city ESP. Conference this. This. But we must. And we will. About. That he committed. Wreck dot org slash and a. Berry ago.

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