7 Episode results for "Robert Schneider"
Guest Episode: The Infinite God
"Undiscovered is supported by capterra dot com. The free resource to help you find the software you need for your business. Get their new e book. The big book of free software for free at capterra dot com. Slash undiscovered that c. a. p. t. e. r. r. a. dot com slash undiscovered. Undiscovered is supported by target presenting future at heart. A new podcast, let explores the impact change makers across the country who were building a better tomorrow, download future at heart on apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This, he's undiscovered. Hey, guys, anti here Ella as well. And fun fact before I made a a science podcast. My first ever job in radio was actually at a rock and roll talk show yet kind kinda different than what we do. Musicians as guests a little bit different than scientists as guests. Like I've never had a scientists come to an interview with a portable laser show what or or keep their shades on for the entire conversation like Debbie, Harry of Blondie did classic. Like of course she would, but the musician who made the biggest impression on me and my extremely short career in rock journalism was not someone who is particularly famous. His name is Robert Schneider. Robert Schneider is the front man of the successful indie band, the apples in stereo. Also a fantastic record producer and what really struck me about him is well. First of all, this guy talks a mile a minute, just like. Like his his, his words are trying to catch up with his fabulous brain that's already like down the block away as and he's super crafty and DIY. He's making these amazing, lush records with, you know, busted up tape machines that he found at a yard sale and boom boxes. Anyway, a few years ago, I read that Robert Schneider had ditched his music career to become a number theorist like a full-time mathematician number theorist, yes, unconventional move. And so I was always curious, like what happened while today? We're gonna find out what happened to Robert Schneider. We're going to play you an episode of a podcast that we love a friend of undiscovered. Joel Werner makes a show called some of all parts for ABC Australia, amazing podcast. It's all about numbers numbers in culture, numbers in music in sports, and he didn't episode about Robert Schneider and about a mathematician that Robert was obsessed with. Very famous. In some circles, a self taught Indian mathematician named Ramona, Jen, Ramana, Geant brilliant, mathematician lived one hundred years ago claimed that his acquaintance were written on his tongue by a Hindu goddess, incredible story, and we're gonna. Let Joel take it from here. Robot was the last person that can Ono expected to hear from, oh my gosh, I'd known about Robert Schneider through his music, Kenza mathematician and professor of number theory at Emory University, five years ago. I got an Email from this Robert Schneider saying that he wanted to pursue a PHD in number theory, which for me is crazy. Pay on Joel. Robert is a rockstar. He's a lead singer of the band apples in stereo. We don't usually look for graduate students from school of Rockstars. This is some of old pots. I thought it was the craziest thing that this man in his early forties wants to put that career on hold and pursue a career in mathematics. And today it the infinite God. So this all starts when a crate turns up at Roberts recording studio. It's like the kind of create UC and old cartoons where there'll be like a kangaroo that's being shipped across the sea of the kangaroo breaks out of the crate and like wreaks havoc. Old. On maybe the kangaroo gets confused for a mouse or something like that. It's and it was an old school would create. You had to use a crowbar to open it. Live of that mouth. You know it was very romantic and when we opened it in the box fell aside, there is the most beautiful antique tape machine. We put it in place and the first time I used it, I realized that this was the perfection of the tape machine recording technology probably of all time as good as tight machine sanded. It had a problem. It would constantly blow out these things called diodes and electric component. And this was like the achilles heel of this particular tape machine for every one day that the tape machine worked. It would be broken down for two days to stop with the band, got a local audio engineer to come in and repair the machine, but then two days later he had to come back. You fix again, his look. I think this is just going to keep happening Robert. You're going to have to learn to fix this yourself. And so in the haze of just being sort of a lo fi, punk rock hippie recording artists suddenly had to learn about Electroncs. And so I. I went to radio shack, and I bought this book called basic electron IX and open the book up. And on the first page I open to right in the middle of the page. There was this equation called Ohm's law and owns law is the fundamental law of electronics. Basically, it's an equation that describes the numbers Hal, electric city flow, and it's so simple just has three things in it with an equal sign. And when I saw this law on the page, it completely blew my mind because realizing that moment that everything that I thought was important, everything I had tried to do that was beautiful. All of my friendship friends that I had traded news live music listening to the radio into record and tape porting onto the tape, mission microphone. Liquoring live, red lights flashing. All of this stuff was existing against the backdrop of the simple mathematical equation, and it's not just that my brain was an electrical system. My thoughts and my mind somehow were being supported by this equation and like, I'm in my studio and I met the microphone like we are right now and you speak into the microphone and your voice is transformed into electricity. And it goes through all of these circuits and stuff and comes back through the system into my headphones, and it's going back into my ears and there it's transformed back into the electrical impulses. And it goes back into my mind if this crazy loop of electricity that air entire existence is completely wrapped up in. And all of this stuff was contained in a simple equation that was just algebra on a page. My memory of that moment is that there was like lights shining down through the ceiling onto me, let golden light like those renaissance paintings really felt like that. It felt like there was no ceiling or sky above me just like Infinity, like pouring down this light on me onto the page. It was very dramatic feeling. After I had this sort of Pitney with the tape machine, I was extremely enamored of mathematics instantly so robots to teach himself mathematics and the whole time. This was happening. I'm in a touring band making records, and I'm in studios all of the time. And also I'm a dad. So in sort of the frenzy of life, I also was trying to sneak time whenever I could to learn about mathematics and work on these ideas. Robot would be backstage, hit the textbook all on a break in the studio scribbling away in one of these notebooks, but being Museau with the maths obsession is kind of a solitary pursuit, no matter how many degrees of separation you went away from me. I didn't even the one other person that was interested in math, maybe like if you had a day job, but then your hobby was that you were a solitary lumberjack and you'd like drive out into the wilderness miles and miles and miles away from any other human being in with chop down trees. Being like a self taught mathematician, not knowing anybody kind of feels like it's that isolated like you really are doing this thing that it doesn't connect anybody else. Like across fight. The volume was slowly turning down on Robert's music career and mixing with this new noise. Number theory, mathematic started to infiltrate the music that Robert was making like he used natural logarithms to develop this thing called a non Therrien scale. Hearing pace composed in this scale. Now, essentially, it's a brand new musical scale with new notes set at intervals that aren't found in the chromatic scale. We all know and love. This intrigued the mathematics community, and Robert was invited to give lectures on music and maths at universities and colleges across the US. And it was on one of these trips that he met Ken Ono. For the first time I am a professional real live research mathematician, which means that I spent a lot of time thinking about numbers, deep in the wilderness. Robert ran into another lumberjack cans, really enthusiastic. He's very high energy. He's kind of far out. He's a fan. Thinker. I can remember leaving and feeling like I was flying on math like it was the first time I had engaged in such a deep conversation with anybody, and he ended up having me in his office for like an hour and a half, and it was a really, really wonderful experience for me. So Kenan robot heated off for a whole bunch of reasons. But a big part of it is this shade obsession with a mystical, Indian mathematician who's been dead for almost a century Ramona gin much of my work, believe it or not is informed by a man named Romana. Jin hee is quite an amazing figure. Really. He is kind of like an incomplete profit in the world of math. Once you hear about some mathematicians Ramana Jains name is it comes up if you don't know anything about mathematics, will you know about Isaac Newton? Everybody knows who he is either maybe like iron Stein. If you go one layer in, so you say have heard about people like oiler and gals. Then you also about Ramana Jen. He's very famous in mathematics, but it's like being famous and. Indie music. If you've never heard of pavement, there's no way you'll ever hear of them. But they won level in. So like if you know what indie music is, then you know who pavement is. Similar in that, like if you do know about pavement then like you really know about pavement, do what I mean? Like you don't have a casual fan, right. If you've gotten that far in, then you're too far in. Born into poverty in the south of Indian eighty ninety seven Ramana Jin had almost no formal training in mathematics and yet still over the course of his lifetime. He came up with thousands of mathematical formulas because he thought they were gifts to him from his Hindu goddess, a goddess NAMA Geary at night in his sleeping dreams or when he was meditating in his temple, his family's goddess would come to him envisions em would touch his tongue with her finger and write equations on his tongue. Just how Ramana Jin came up with these formulas. One of the biggest mysteries in mathematics beyond the folklore of goddess riding on his tongue. He left behind no trace of how actually derived any of these work. Like I said, Ramana Jim was born into a poor family and paper was expensive. So he did all these calculations in chalk on a slight wiping the slate, clean, Izzy wind. It was only when he got to the. The final formula that he'd transcribe it from the slight into a notebook. He presented his work without any proofs is just a list of equations. Nobody could make heads or tails of it in his era. And for the last hundred years mathematicians have been trying to work out what Ramana JR and did and to prove his work Ramona work is all about unlocking the infinite about taking what most of us think of is inconceivable and making it more noble. You found ways of taming extremely complicated numbers so that you would never be afraid of them at all. As I looked into Ramana Jen, I found that his story really spoke to me. He was a self, taught mathematician. He didn't have access to education hit in fact dropped out of college. This inspired me to realize that you could take the sort of self motivated nonstandard path towards mathematics. That's more commonly the way that artists go about it. I saw him as being the model for the kind of genius that one might aspire to. You know Ramani was. Mathematician that provided me with the model of how I saw that mathematics should be done. Flash forward a couple of years, and I had decided that I was going to drop out of the music scene stopped touring and go to graduate school. And if I'm going to do that, I should probably do it now. I'm like forty until like over the course of a year or so pulled myself out of the music world. This is huge robots rockstar music is his entire life. That was sort of a weird, you know is a great time weird time to almost had like an identity sort of. Dissociated few a little bit where you have like people will leave town and change their names and move to a different place and take on a whole new identity. Didn't have that going on, but I felt a little bit like that was going on because there was no crossover between my music life and my math life, and it's pretty obvious who robot's going to want to oversee this crossover rut. He visited me at Emory University and he came armed with notebooks, couldn't believe it just like Ramana Jin had notebooks. You must have one hundred of them by now. Kim was grilling me to see if I was acceptable as a student for him and the. It wasn't just me coming in as a well known musician with a math hobby. It was like me coming in as a potential person he would work with, and it had a different flavor to it. The level of energy in the room who needs nuclear power. If you have someone like rob Schneider, he said, I don't know a lot of math, but I love beauty and I see that there is art in mathematics, and I wanna come study with you. It Emory, we went through as notebooks. I saw flashes of genius, and we took a gamble on him because a lot of the qualities that I see in Ramana Jin I see in Robert Robert's completely unconventional in his thoughts. And you know, he has produced some of the most beautiful formulas that I've seen in the last four or five years left that time it was more than flying on math. I mean, I was in like, orbit, you know, like it was such a great feeling. It was a very inspiring and exciting moment for me. As I left the building, my wife picked me up and the way she tells the story is that I got in the car and she looked at me and she said, I had never looked so happy, and she said to me, Honey, you're going to Emory, aren't you? And I thought about it for a second. And I was like, oh my God, she's right. I have never felt this happy in this kind of conversation about mathematics with anybody. So robot pecks up. He's house and his family, and he moves across the country to start a PHD with kin Ono. And soon after these Ken has a breakthrough huge result and it's to do with Ramana Jin's most mysterious work a mystery. He left to the world from his deathbed, but to understand it, we need to put it in the context of the end of Ramana Jones. Live. Coming out the mysterious death bed formulas of Sweeney Vaas Remond Dejan I've never seen anything like this. It's so crazy that it has to be true and Robert and Ken go to India when some of all parts continuing. Undiscovered is supported by target presenting future at heart. A new podcast about change makers across the country. Future at heart introduces listeners to cause explains why the 'cause it's so important for the community and takes the time to reflect on its future impact future at heart visits, Miami, Washington, DC, New York City and more to take a deep dive into understanding why it's critical to keep the future at heart download future at heart on apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast undiscovered is supported by capterra dot com. We all face unexpected hurdles at work. Don't let finding the right software. One of them download capterra's new e book, the big book of free software for free. I kept here dot com slash undiscovered, whether you're looking for a new project management tool recruiting software, or an Email marketing solution, capterra big book free software. Has you covered visit capterra dot com. Slash undiscovered. That's capterra c. a. p. t. e. r. dot com. Slash undiscovered. Going through my t shirt or the other day, and I realized I have reached a point in my podcast fandom where I have more podcast t shirts than I do banned t shirts. Congratulations. Thank you and my my favorite one, of course, not like I'm biased is my undiscovered shirt purely I that, yes, it's a dark, Heather gray has our logo on it. And right now you can get it for twenty percent off with the promo code undiscovered anything in our undiscovered store right now is twenty percent off through October, and you can see all that stuff. And of course, our snazzy t shirts at undiscovered, podcasts, dot org, slash store undiscovered podcast dot org slash store with discount code undiscovered. Today, undiscovered playing you an episode from podcast that we love. Some of all parts brings you extraordinary stories from the world of numbers. Here's host Joel Werner again. So reminded being collecting these formulas gifted to him any sleep by goddess, riding on his tongue. And after a while he starts sending his work to prominent mathematicians all around the world. Now he doesn't Tony working, right? So there's no way to figure out how he derived any of these ideas. So these academics, they pretty much just ignore him except for g. h. Hoti a number theorist at Cambridge University g h hardy was this amazing, super mathematician of his era. Ramana cinema, letter filled with mathematics. Hardy was like, I've never seen anything like this. It's so crazy that it has to be true. Hoti was running on a gut feeling invited Ramana reminded to come to England to study with him at Cambridge, and for. Period of five years in the mid nineteen teens when England was in the midst of this bloody World War Ramana Jen prove some of the most astonishing formulas of the day during his time at Cambridge reminded and struggle to adapt to English culture. In particular, he found the food strange and difficult to stomach frequently seek, but doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong with him. And eventually the constant illness got too much. So he returned to India in nineteen nineteen hoping to return to good health, but he continued to do his own research and in January of nineteen twenty. He wrote to his collaborator g h hardy in Cambridge, and this letter begins dear hardy. I'm sorry for not writing a single letter, but I've discovered this most wonderful theory and he goes on to list examples of functions. He calls mock veta- functions and for the next ninety years, nobody knew what he was talking about and this is very mystique. He sent it in a letter just a few pages long. So he didn't put any more information about it. But he indicated in the letter that he had a theory. And then the next letter Remond that hardy got said that religion had passed away. Remond engine died unfortunately at the age of thirty two long before he was able to explain all of his ideas to hardy and the other mathematicians. And so all that was left was the single letter that had a couple of examples. Nobody had any idea how Ramada had come up with them. And so these bizarre functions that reminded and dreamed up in a fever. One imagines on his deathbed turned out to be a huge subject of study and intrigue in the twentieth century. And this was kipnes big breakthrough. He figured out how reminded derived these deathbed functions. It was if he'd been able to undo some of the chalk workings that Ramana Jin had wiped clean from you. Slight one day I walked into office and he was like, Robert, I know how to prove that Ramada Jains definition of the mock veta- functions is true. I was like, oh my God. That's amazing. That's really big news. Turns out that that year two thousand twelve was the under twenty fifth anniversary of Ramana birth. There was a big festival going on all over India about Ramana Jin. He's a national hero there. So we were invited by Shasta university, a modern university that is based in Koumba Chonam in south India. The town that Ramana Jin lived in grew up in Ken was invited to speak about his new work, and they invited me also to give a talk on quantum modular forms, so can and robot head to India. I've been to India many times, but it was thrilling to share this pilgrimage with Robert visiting. Being some of the sites that play an important role in the Ramana Jin story when he was visiting them for the first time I had a considerable amount of work to do, which was hard because I was on anti-malaria medication that was making me kind of a psychedelic state the whole time I was there. So like I was there the Ramana Jim, the Conan, the Hinduism's whole thing was all swimming around. I was having extremely surreal experience. A magic him walking through ruins and temples in India, soaking up the brilliant colors, the smells and the people. This is component. It's a town of one hundred thousand people, maybe a few hundred thousand people, but it still feels like a village if feels like you're in this beautiful tropical jungle. It is a sacred city in south India filled with temples. It's called the temple city. The temple that is just down the street from Ramana Jin's child at home. It's about like a block away from his house. It's this beautiful, really int- the painted structure builds from rocks that were brought from the north by elephants like two thousand years ago that reach. I don't know five, six hundred feet into the sky. These giant stones are now blackened with age engraved with crazy ancient alphabets that people don't even recognize anymore. And as you here at the top of this temple, you can barely make out the intricate carvings and the very, very top segment of it, and they'll be eighty hundred bats flying routes ruling around the top and all the while you hear the rhythmic drumming of the drums that the Hindu monks are chanting to from the inside. And suddenly the sound has dropped away. There are so many thick walls of stone between you in the modern world, and you're walking into a space that's thousands of years old just to walk from your modern life into an ageless space like that feels extremely mysterious and deep grimala Jen experience this every day. As I went into his temple, I looked around at all the patterns and designs and a thought like I was really inside culture of Infinity. Indian religion is not a religion of one God or a handful of God's like the ancient Greek mythology or something. It's a religion of almost infinitely many shapes and forms of their deity. The sense of blossomed, Janine glowering things hopping infinitely fractions ranching off this built into the architecture of Hinduism. And if you look at Nate, aren't tapestries Harding painting all of these Dita's zoom in, you see all of these little everywhere. You look, it's covered. And everywhere you look bustling animal glowers and everything like looks like sort of a simple pattern as you zoom in. You keep seeing the same pattern repeating, but with more variety and the right, and as you zoom zoom in zoom zoom in, and then you're on the level of the Infinity. The infinitude of frontal details all around and Indian culture. I believe that that gave Ramana gen a sense of comfort with infinite detail. So I think that the infinite variety of deities and patterns in the art and everything else must have calibrated his mind to be able to somehow feel absolutely at ease with the clutter, and the chaos of the crazy mathematics that he started to think about. These were things that western mathematicians and everyone thought about before they're still struggling with simple aspects of Ramada rushed ahead and pulled in thousands of new crazy patterns that nobody had even looked for before because there were so blinded by the noise and he was able to look through the noise being perfectly comfortable with it. It's kind of like in the nineties, we had that magic. I art see this crazy complicated pattern. But if you stare inside, it's suddenly it's a wheel floating in with a heart. Or something. You know what I mean? I think you would see that. I feel like Ramana John was looking into the noise that he saw in mathematics, and he was able to look into it and blur his eyes and see into the distance and see three d whales that was floating. And certain level, maybe just certain months, mathematics becomes something different to what you study in school. Fuel wrote timetables and Hazel memorized formulas and something creative closer to an IT precedes something into woven with all of your lots of the passions, all of which informed the way you think about numbers. And that's it. Really, you kind of scape the influence you life has on what you choose to do with it. Context is everything. So you might as well make the most of. Mathematics is like music. It is a self contained universe of its own. When I'm writing songs when a making music most of the time, I'm actually not making any sound at all. I'm just thinking, I'm listening in my head to arrangements develop into songs that I'm writing and I'm thinking of lyrics made them writing down in my notebook, but it's largely silent and internal process. When I'm in the studio, I'll hear that world that I had sort of imagined coming out of the speakers and connect really magical way because it's overlapping with the world that's ready inside my head. You're suddenly physically able to reach into the world that was previously only mental. Mathematics is pure. It's free from the physical world. There's constraint. The mathematics is like hearing the music in your head. It's a fully self contained universe and you have access to in your imagination. And we only know a tiny little piece of it. Think about the set of all possible sounds like an ever be made anywhere by anything and think about how small music theory is compared to that. And that's what the math that we practice is like compared to the math that's out there, it feels like there's a universe of all possible mathematics, and we know this tiny little piece that we've been able to find. And that's something you see, look off into the distance in your imagination, and you can see that that's there. You can see off in the distance fading away these horizons that are beyond what you could possibly know reach. Some of all parts is produced by me Jolan. So if you story Jonathan websites headed, and the sound is on by me and my Don with thanks to mighty relative work on an early version of this episode robot Schneider, and professor Kano a mathematician at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia special, thanks to rub span mate and partnering crime. Ben falen for a super interesting phone call. I, I started working on this story Ben and Robert wrote an account of robots trip to India online magazine the believer. It's excellent, and you should read it. Ken was an associate producer on the man who knew Infinity, which is a feature film about the life of Ramana, Joe, it's also excellent and you should watch it getting touch. If you've been touched by a number soap at ABC dot net that I, let's make some stuff, but until then that's it. Thank you so much to Joel into some of all parts for sharing that episode with us. And congratulations to rubber Snyder became Dr Robert Schneider last April. Some of all parts brings you extrordinary stories from the world of numbers, and there are more where that came from find some of all parts at ABC dot net, dot AU, slash soap or some of all parts wherever you get your podcasts and look after the new season of some of all parts coming up later this year, undiscovered is back next week. Do you hear the host of future at heart, a new podcast by target and WNYC creative about people and organisations were fighting for a better future on future at heart will travel across the country to meet people who are doing the work that changes. Communities change comes in many forms, and we'll explore that by talking to everyone from a cooking teacher with edible schoolyard NYC to a coach, building new soccer place bases with the United States, soccer foundation, those stories and more on future at heart, download it wherever you get your podcasts.
Shetler Studios In New York City Closes Due To Economic Downturn
"Theaters large and small across the country are closed. Due to the coronavirus pandemic which means a lot of businesses that support them are also on hold and one of those with Shetler studios in Manhattan. It was a place where New York theater artists from. The famous to the yet to be discovered auditioned and rehearsed but shetler studios announced that a can't hold on as Jeff London reports this iconic studios closing his sent shockwaves through the theater. Community cabaret producer. Robert Schneider says he worked on almost all of his shows. It Shetler Studios. Shetler was a big blow to a lot of us because to us. That's the home. That's the home. Wear whatever you see on stage. That finished product was all created at Shutler. Schneider says it was affordable so it attracted everyone from Broadway stars to up-and-comers he recalls waiting for an elevator that took forever with a group of college students. And I hear one of the girls say boy I just WanNa get an agent and be successful. I don't know what's going to happen next for me. At the same time she gets on the elevator the other elevator doors open and I swear to you. Christine Baranowski walks out to me. This is incredible. You're watching someone who's reached the peak of their journey right next to someone who's just beginning their journey but that's Shetler and that happened like on a daily basis. Shetler is part of the New York theater community as much as Phantom of the opera or something way more visible is theater and cabaret producer Jennifer Ashley Temper. The second that this was all announced and I posted about it so many people came out of the woodwork. To like talk about Shetler. There's no one that hasn't worked there when he heard. Shetler was closing Lin Manuel Miranda's sent out a tweet recalling how he tried out Hamilton material there. Oh my goodness. The odds of sadness in grief over the death of the studios has been literally overwhelming owner run. Shetler opened his facility. Thirty years ago it grew to twenty three thousand square feet on three floors and we pride ourselves in being a professional home away from home. Not only for teaching acting and singing but for auditions rehearsals in performing all in complex for Fifteen Years Janice Goldberg Co directed. The End Theater Company. A tiny off Broadway group and says she sometimes spent five days a week at Shetler studios. It's almost visceral loss. If you've spent so many hours in a place doing something you love and bringing ideas and people's work and your own work to fruition have that energy behind you and then all the sudden that's taken away forever. It's a blow but owner Ron. Shetler says he felt he had no choice but to close the enormous way to finances required to put everything on hold in the fact that everything that we do in the studios can't be done under the confines of the covert Pandemic Protocol and that the entertainment world will be the last open up again. That made the decision quite imminent. I DIDN'T WANNA stick my head in the sand and just Deny what was going on again producer Robert Schneider. It's very hard for me. Because the beginning of my career in the city was all done at Shetler I practically lived at Shetler and now I'm going to have to find new home but those memories I would not trade for anything for NPR news. I'm Jeff London in New York.
Sum of All Parts - The Infinite God
"This is an ABC podcast. Hello, welcome to science friction its culture and science with extra spice. Some, the Tesha Mitchell gripe, spicy stories for you this week in next. We are showcasing a deliciously adventurous podcast from ABC science. It's called some of all parts or soap that's nickname. And it's host while I would say Joe Werner, you are a man of many obsessions and music has to be Scholley one of them. Yeah. Music's definitely up there. And while some vol- parts is a show about numbers. I think numbers and mathematics in music is so interwoven that occasionally it ends up being a bit of a music podcast as well. And that's definitely the case with the story with featuring today. Yeah, it's a shy with really rhythmic pulse often because you do beautiful sand design and at the heart of this story is a genuine, rockstar. Who discovered an obsession himself, kind of mid Korea robot Schneider is huge in India Saint so it means that, that's not so huge. But he, he is a big deal in the right circles. And he kind of walked away from this very successful music career to focus on an obsession. He has with mathematics. Let's take it away. Robert Schneider was the last person that can Ono expected to hear from all my gosh, I'd known about Robert Schneider, through his music, Kenza, mathematician and professor of number theory at Emory University five years ago, I got an Email from this Robert Schneider, saying that he wanted to pursue a PHD in number theory, which for me is crazy. Robert is a rockstar. He's a lead singer of the band apples and stereo. You know, you don't usually look for graduate students from a pool of Rockstars. I thought it was the craziest thing that this man in his early. Forties wants to put that career on hold, and pursue a career in mathematics. So this all starts when a crate turns up at rub. It's recording studio. It's like the kind of crate, you seen old cartoons where they'll be like a kangaroo that's being shipped across the of the kangaroo breaks out of the crate, and like wreaks havoc. Old. On the kangaroo gets confused for a mouse, or something like that. You know. And it was an old school would create we had to use a crowbar to open it. Five of that mouth, it was very romantic. And when we opened it in the box fell aside, there's the most beautiful antique tape machine we put it in place, and the first time I used it. I realized that this was the perfection of tape machine recording technology. Probably of all time as good as tight machine sanded it had a problem, it would constantly blow out these things called diodes and electron it component. And this was like the achilles heel of this particular tape machine for every one day that the tape machine worked, it would be broken down for two days to start with the band. Got a local audio engineer to come in and repair the machine. But then today's later he had to come back. He fix again. His look, I think this is just gonna keep happening Robert you're going to have to learn to fix this yourself. And so in the haze of just being sort of a lo fi punk rock hippie recording artists suddenly had to learn about Electroncs and so. I went to radio shack, and I bought this book called basic electron IX and open the book up and on the first page, I opened to right in the middle of the page, there was this equation called Ohm's law and owns law is the fundamental law of electron IX, basically, it's an equation, that describes the numbers Hal electric city flows, and it's so simple has three things in it with an equal sign. And when I saw this law on the page, it completely blew my mind because I realized that moment that everything that I thought was important. Everything I had tried to do that was beautiful, all of my friendship friends that I had traded muse live music listening to the radio into records tame courting onto the tape mission microphone, liquoring light red lights flashing. All of this stuff was existing against the backdrop of the simple mathematical equation. And it's not just that my brain was an electrical system. My thoughts and my mind somehow were being supported by this equation. And like I'm in my studio and I'm at the microphone like we are right now and you speak into the microphone and your voice is transformed into electricity and it goes through all of these circuits and stuff and comes back through the system, it's my headphones and it's going back into my ears and there it's transformed back into the electrical impulses. And it goes back into my mind. If this crazy loop of electricity that our entire existence is completely wrapped up in and all of this stuff was contained in a simple equation. That was just our bre on a page, my memory of that moment is that there was like lights shining, down through the ceiling onto golden light like in those renaissance paintings, like, really felt like that. It felt like there was no ceiling or sky above me, just like Infinity, like pouring down this light on me onto the page. It was very dramatic feeling. After I had this sort of pithy with the tape machine, I was extremely enamored of mathematics instantly, so robots to teach himself mathematics and the whole time. This was happening. I'm in the touring band making records and I'm in studios all of the time and also a dad, so in sort of the frenzy of life. I also was trying to sneak time whenever I could to learn about mathematics, and work on these ideas, Robert would be backstage hid deep in a textbook on a break in the studio scribbling away in one of these notebooks but being Museau with the maths obsession is kind of a solitary pursuit, no matter how many degrees of separation he went away from me. I didn't even the one other person that was interested in math. Maybe like if you had a day job. But then your hobby was that you are a solitary lumberjack and you'd like drive out into the wilderness, miles and miles and miles away from any other human being and with chop down trees being like a self taught mathematician, not knowing anybody kind of feels like it's that isolated like you really are doing this thing that it doesn't. Connect anybody else. Like cross fade, the volume slowly down roots music, career, and mixing with this new noise, number theory, mathematics started to infiltrate the music that Roe was making like he's not tra- logarithms to develop this thing called a non Therrien scale hearing pace composed in his scale now, essentially, it's a brand new musical scale, with new notes set at intervals that aren't found in the chromatic scale, we all know and love this intrigue, the mathematics community and Robert was invited to give lectures on music and maths at universities and colleges across the US. And it was one of these trips that emit can earn. Oh for the first time I am a professional real live research, mathematician, which means that I spent a lot of time thinking about numbers deep in the wilderness. Robert ran into another lumberjack. Cans really enthusiastic. He's very high energy. He's kind of far out. He's a fast thinker can remember leaving and feeling like I was flying on math. Like it was the first time I had engaged in such deep math conversation with anybody. And he ended up having me in his office for like an hour and a half. And it was a really, really wonderful experience for me. So Kenan robot heated off, for a whole bunch of reasons, but a big part of it is shared obsession with a mystical Indian mathematician, who's been dead. For almost a century, Ramona gin much of my work, believe it or not is informed by a man named Romana Jin. He is quite an amazing figure really he is kind of like an incomplete profit in the world of math. Once you hear about some mathematicians Ramana Jains name is it comes up, if you don't know anything about mathematics, will, you know about Isaac Newton, everybody knows who he is either. Maybe like iron Stein. If you go one layer in so you say have heard about people like oiler and gals. Then you also know. About Ramana jn. He's very famous in mathematics, but it's like being famous indie music. If you've never heard of pavement, there's no way you'll ever hear of them, but they one level in. So if you know what indie music is then, you know who pavement is. Similar in that like the do know about pavement, then, like you really know about pavement do not obey, and let's have a casual fan, right? Like you have. If you've gotten that far in, then you're too far in. Born into poverty in the south of India in eighteen eighty seven Ramana Jin had almost no formal training in mathematics and yet still over the course of his lifetime. He came up with thousands of mathematical formulas because he thought they were gifts to him from his Hindu goddess, goddess NAMA Geary at night in his sleeping dreams, or when he was meditating in his temple his family's goddess with come to him, envisions and would touch his tongue with her finger and write equations on his tongue, just how reminded and came up with these formulas one of the biggest mysteries in mathematics beyond the folklore of goddess riding on his tongue. He left behind. No trace of how actually derived any of these work like I said reminded him was born into a poll, family and paper was expensive. So he did all these calculations in chalk. On a slight wiping the slate clean. Izzy wind. It was only when he got to the final formula that he transcribe it from. The slate into a notebook. He presented his work without any proofs is just a list of questions. Nobody could make heads or tails of it in his era. And for the last hundred years, mathematicians have been trying to work out what Ramana JR and did. And to prove his work Ramones into work is all about unlocking, the infinite about taking what most of the sink of is inconceivable and making it more noble. You found ways of taming extremely complicated numbers, so that you would never be afraid of them at all as I looked into Ramana, Jen. I found that his story really spoke to me. He was a self taught mathematician. He didn't have access to education hit, in fact, dropped out of college. This inspired me to realize that you could take the sort of self motivated, nonstandard path towards mathematics. That's more commonly the way that artists go about it. I saw him as being the model for the kind of genius that one might aspire to, you know, Vermont was the mathematician that provided me with the model of. How is all that mathematics should be done? Flash forward a couple of years, and I had decided that I was going to drop out of the music scene stopped touring, and go to graduate school. And if I'm going to do that I should probably do it now. I'm like forty until, like over the course of a year or so pulled myself out of the music world. This is huge robots. A rook star music is he's in tile life. That was sort of a weird, you know, is a great time. It is weird time to I almost had like an identity sort of. Dissociate of few a little bit where you have, like people leave town and change their names and moved to a different place and take on a whole new identity didn't have that going on. But I felt a little bit like that was going on, because there was no crossover between my music life and my math life. And it's pretty obvious who Robert's going to want to oversee this crossover rut, he visited me at Emory University, and he came armed with notebooks. Couldn't believe it just like Ramana Jin had notebooks. You must have one hundred of them by now Ken was grilling me to see. I was acceptable as a student for him. And the. It wasn't just me coming in as a well known musician with a math hobby. It was like me coming in as a potential person he would work with. And it had a different flavor to it the level of energy in the room who needs nuclear power. If you have someone like rob Schneider, he said, I don't know, a lot of math, but I love beauty. And I see that there is art in mathematics, and I wanna come study with you at Emory. We went through his notebooks. I saw flashes of genius, and we took a gamble on him because a lot of the qualities that I seen Ramana Jin. I see in Robert Robert's completely unconventional in his thoughts. And, you know, he is produced some of the most beautiful formulas that I've seen in the last four or five years, left, that time, it was more than flying on math. I was in like orbit, you know, like it was such a great feeling. It was a very inspiring and exciting moment for me. As I left the building, my wife, pick me up. And she tells the story is that I got in the car, and she looked at me, and she said, I had never looked so happy. And she said to me, Honey, you're going to Emory, orange you and I thought about it for a second. And I was like, oh my God. She's right. I have never felt this happy in this kind of conversation about mathematics with anybody on science fiction here on VCR in on Jolan with a some of old pots special, it's the story of rook Stott and mathematician, rubbish NADA. So Robert packs, up his house and his family and he moves across the country to do a PHD with Kane ONA and soon after Kim has a breakthrough this is a huge result, and it's all to do with Ramona Jin's most mysterious work a mystery the left of the world from his death did. But to try to understand it, we need to put it in the context of end of Ramana jen's life. So quick recap Ramana jn had been collecting these formulas that would gifted to him any sleep. Goddess riding on his tongue. And after a while he starts sending these ideas to prominent mathematicians from all around the world now Ramana jn doesn't show any working, right? So there's no way to figure out how he even derived these ID's. So all these academics, they pretty much just ignore him. Except for g h hardy a number theorist, Cambridge University, g h hardy was this amazing super mathematician of his era. Ramada cinema letter filled with mathematics, hardy was like I've never seen anything like this. It's so crazy that it has to be true Hoti was running on a gut feeling invited Ramana Jin to come to England to study with him at Cambridge, and for a period of five years in the mid nineteen teens when England was in the midst of this bloody World War, Ramana Jen prove some of the most astonishing formulas of the day during his time at Cambridge Ramana and struggle to adapt to English culture in. He found the food strange and difficult to stomach frequently seek, but doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong with him, and eventually, the constant illness got too much. So he returned to India in one thousand nine hundred nineteen hoping to return to good health, but he continued to do his own research. And in January of nineteen twenty he wrote to his collaborator g h hardy in Cambridge and this letter begins dear hardy. I'm sorry for not writing a single letter, but I've discovered this most wonderful theory, and he goes on to list examples of functions. He calls mock veta- functions. And for the next ninety years. Nobody knew what he was talking about. And this is very mysterious. He sent it in a letter just a few pages long. So he didn't put any more information about it. But he indicated in the letter that he had a theory. And then the next letter Amman that hardy got said that Ramal had passed away. Remond engine died. Unfortunately, at the age of thirty two long before he was able to explain all of his ideas to hardy, and the other mathematicians, and so all that was left was the single letter that had a couple of examples. Nobody had any idea how Ramada had come up with them. And so these bizarre functions that reminded and dreamed up in a fever. One imagines on his deathbed turned out to be a huge subject of study and intrigue in the twentieth, century. And this was kipnes big breakthrough. He figured out how reminded and derived, these deathbed functions it was this. If he'd been able to undo some of the chalk workings that Ramana Jin had wiped clean from you, slight one day I walked into office. And like Robert, I know how to prove that Ramada Jains definition of the mock veta- functions is true. I was like, oh my God. That's amazing. That's really big news. Turns out that, that year two thousand twelve was the one hundred twenty fifth anniversary of Ramana birth. There was a big festival going on all over India about Ramana Jin. He's a national hero there. So we were invited by Shasta university. A modern university that is based in Koumba Chonam in south India, the town that Ramana Jen lived in grew up in Ken was invited to speak about his new work, and they invited me also to give a talk on quantum modular forms, so it can rub it head to India. I've been to India many times, but it was thrilling to share this pilgrimage with Robert visit. Tting some of the sites that play an important role in the Ramana Jin story when he was visiting them for the first time I had a considerable amount of work to do which was hard because I was on anti-malaria medication that was making me kind of be in a psychedelic state, the whole time I was there. So, like, I was there, the Ramana jn, the Conan, the Hinduism's whole thing was all swimming around. I was having extremely surreal experience. A magic him walking through ruins and temples in India, soaking up the brilliant colors, the smells, and the people. This is component. It's a town of say one hundred thousand people, maybe a few hundred thousand people, but it still feels like a village. If feels like you're in this beautiful, tropical jungle, it is a sacred city in south India filled with temples. It's called the temple city. The temple that is just down the street from Ramana engines child at home. It's about like a block away from his house. It's this beautiful really int- the painted structure builds from rocks that were brought from the north by elephants like two thousand years ago, that reach, I don't know, five six hundred feet into the sky. These giant stones are now blackened with age engraved, with crazy, ancient alphabets that people don't even recognize anymore. And as you here at the top of this temple, you can barely make out the intricate carvings and the very, very top segment of it, and they'll be eighty year hundred bats flying around swirling around the top, and all the while you hear the rhythmic drumming of the drums that the Hindu monks are chanting to from the inside. And some Lee, the sound has dropped away. There are so many thick walls of stone between you and the modern world and you're walking into a space. That's thousands of years old, just to walk from your modern life into an ageless space, like that feels extremely mysterious and deep grandma experience this every day. As I went into his temple. I looked around at all the patterns and designs and a felt like it was really inside a culture of Infinity. Indian religion is not a religion of one God, or a handful of God's like the ancient Greek mythology or something. It's a religion of almost infinitely many shapes and forms of their deity, the sense of blossomed Janine glowering things, hopping off infants branching off, this is built into the architecture of Hinduism. And if you look at Nate aren't tapestries Harding's, eating all of these details zoom in you see all of these little everywhere you look it's covered. Our tents and everywhere you look bustling, animals trees, and glowers, and everything looks like sort of a simple pattern and as and you keep seeing the same pattern repeating, but with more variety. And, and as you zoom zoom zoom in, and then you're on the level of the Infinity. The infinitude of Fratelli details all around and Indian culture, I believe that that gave Ramana gen a sense of comfort with infinite detail. So I think that the infinite variety of deities and patterns in the art and everything else must have calibrated his mind to be able to somehow feel absolutely at ease with the clutter and the chaos of the crazy mathematics that he started to think about these were things that western mathematicians had never even thought about before, they're still struggling with simple aspects of Ramallah rushed ahead and pulled in thousands of new crazy patterns that nobody had even looked for before because there are so blinded by the noise, and he was able to look through the noise being perfectly comfortable with it. It's kind of like in the nineties, we had that magic I art and see this crazy complicated pattern. But if you stare inside it suddenly it's a way, oh floating in with a heart. For something. You know what I mean? I think you would see that I feel like Ramana, John was looking into the noise that he saw in mathematics, and he was able to look into it, and blur, his eyes and scenes of the distance and see three d whales that was floating. Certain level. Maybe just a certain mindset, mathematics, becomes something different to what you study in school. Fuel wrote timetables, and Hazel memorized, formulas, and something mold creative closer to an RTC precedes something into woven with all of your other passions, all of which informed, the white, you think about numbers. And that's it really kind of scape the influence your life has on what you choose to do with it. Context is everything, so you might as well make the most of it. Mathematics is like music. It is a self contained universe of its own, when I'm writing songs when a making music most of the time, actually not making any sound at all. I'm just thinking I'm listening in my head to arrangements, develop and two songs that I'm writing. And I'm thinking of lyrics in writing down in my notebook, but it's largely silence and interning process when I'm in the studio, I'll hear that world that I had sort of imagined coming out of the speakers, and connect in really magical way because it's overlapping with the world that's ready inside my head. You're suddenly physically able to reach into the world that was previously only mental. Mathematics is pure. It's free from the physical world. There's constraint the mathematics is like hearing the music in your head. It's a fully self contained universe. And you have access to in your imagination, and we only know tiny little piece of it think about the set of all possible. Sounds like an ever be made anywhere by anything and think about how small music theory is compared to that. And that's what the math that we practice is like compared to the math that's out there. It feels like there's a universe of all possible mathematics, and we know this tiny little piece that we've been able to find, and that's something you see you look off into the distance in your imagination, and you can see that, that's there you can see off in the distance fading away these like horizons that are beyond what you could possibly know reach. Robots nada. He such alive was so season. Two of some of all parts has landed folks. Joe win. What's up? I the first episode is another music story, but this time it's a story about out very human. Compulsion to move bodies to the bait. Let's hear ties as humans. We have a natural tendency to entrain to regulate. So if it's just a. There's a fair chance. We may wanna start topping our foot along with it. But in the end could be August is actually a little bit boring. Having just a steady bait going through everything. And how the story is a really great yon about Radiohead. And I love how as the episode landed righty, oh, head launched this whole Beck has log of one of their albums. Joe it kind of got a bit lost when one of the greatest volts in music, his treaty, they got unleashed onto the world, but it was a great coincidence. And yet Radiohead really gives us an insight. Surprisingly gives us an insight to the ancient roots of this kind of compulsion. We have to rhythm. Thanks, joe. You can catch some of all parts in new podcast fade worthy. Get you poed cast or ABC. Listen up catching wake by you've been listening to an ABC podcast. Discover more great ABC podcasts. Live radio and exclusives on the listen up.
What Do You Want, A Cookie?
"And we are are back. Thank you for joining us on say what happens the podcast where you can see what happens okay with me of course is the lovely lovely and talented patricia schneider which recent maya and how do we people find you again. You can find me on instagram at i am reminded and you could also i could find you <hes> you can find me every day here at the house in the jamie elissa. What did you find coach. Jamie lasalle our good friend jamie partner in crime. What did you just find out about your name. Thank you that thing. What is that somebody one of our listeners. One of our listeners <hes> 'cause remember. I said i don't know anything about my heritage. Yeah amongst other things well listener sent over this thing that said what it say it said <hes> list equals fox in french or proper english grammar for doubling the s. It's then there's other words it said listen polish lisov over in russian resolve and then russian so in other words jamie listen is jamie foxx if properly translated pleaded into english so i i see a lot more successful. Amy fox should have your own shit gone. I'm i'm pretty sure this guy's right. He's a guy from twitter. She could offer coat-tails at this point according to that but that said okay so anyway. I'm sorry that went down a path. It didn't have any rewarding and your last name. Schneider schneider really means tailor in german schneider's. There's like so many schneider's you have no. I i found out the american airlines frequent flyer program <hes> two hundred and forty seven rob or robert schneiders schneider's robert schneider's. That's mind blowing yes. That's all them because i'm like the most famous with robert schneider. I'm not that i'm not that. I'm not that deuce bigalow. Will you stop. I'm just no but that's there was two hundred forty seven. That was a while ago so there might be more than some of them actually could be less because it could be dead by now or hung themselves so but anyway. I don't know there are not that many. I don't think that many robert schneider's yes dorm yeah. Forty-seven i'm telling you how much you know in american airlines airlines just american imagine if you had to southwest. There's so many other airlines. I don't know if i don't know if you shitting on me now or what would that comment no. I just meant that. There's probably if you add airline. There's some something underneath a then and you've picked that up. There wasn't no i just i was trying to go with an airline that was i felt something. You didn't purposely. I love your hat by the way it looks good on you. Are you getting comments on that. I get jamie's combination jamie. I get comments all the time i got. Jamie got this beautiful hat just this morning l. veltri. What's it called. The bell. Bell tree belt fell free belfry handcuff. I think is from free from rob. Schneider looks great on your looks good. It's a it's a well. We call that style of hat. I don't know i think you'd call a cap. Wouldn't you call updike a gal from an irish cop or something very popular but it's been around for a long time but like it's <hes> that mats are coming back with men so as baldness exactly yeah. What's that show you watch on netflix. Where i i was gonna say peaky blinders peaky blinders out. I love this hat. You do love the hat. I many many compliments pedo. You know also you. I really do say well. A lot of people say like dude. You're stealing rob schneider's look. I get that a lot of trivia but i don't mind i know well well. You know what okay well. Jaime looks good on you happy for you. Let's talk about one of the things we talk about. What happened today. That was really interesting. <hes> oh we had a poppy <music> up became over and the girls maranda six and madeleine to yes. They just lost their mind to sell the doggie. Their brains exploded. What kind of dog was it. It was like it was like maybe the cutest you know where they mix dogs and sometimes turned into like a rat killer or like a dog that climbs coconut trees or whatever this this dog or they turn it into like you know whatever like patty yeah. This dog is a half maltese <music> half poodle. It's a multi poo and it's the cutest thing versus laws look at multiple. It's a sweet and super smart dog too and fast and like you know <hes> just the sweetest dog sweet dog years yes. Do you know what happened to me patrizia so i came to your house several hours after the dog came to your house us and robinson to your two daughters hate the go into the door might be the puppy again. It was me at the door unusually. Your kids are like kind of excited to see me yeah. They gamy like i was a piece of shit people frowned and walked away disappointed aw come out and make you feel a jamie. I'm sorry i did not know news good because they literally saw jamie at the drugs like i said maybe the puppy again so tiny little girls ran to the door hoping for their puppy to come back. They're happy in their life that they've ever seen before. You put your kids tonight. I'm going to go. Hey cinderella's coming up and then jamie opened the door. They opened the door open the door and the they literally just turned away. They both like their shoulders drop like their whole demeanor. They were just never so disappointed that i wasn't a puppy okay. We have a little kid here miranda. What what is it darling. What do you want to have a half of that. Did you say i told her half. Yes so what happens is that you walked away. Happily yes so that was the way to get rid of her. Then is that would it just to give her sugar log away while playing so that's a really good cookie. Have our tell you no no no no way to improve your the best cookies i ever had in my life. I i hate most vegan stuff and this is not a commercial because we don't have commercials on our podcast. S. and we're vegans either right or specialty about the podcast no no commercials. We're not vegans. Yes but those those those fucking cookies iran dickey's von vegan again kitchen. You're gonna find her instagram at like on. I mean say how good those cookies are yvonne. What does it what you've gone. Vegan kitchen listen yvonne vegan kitchen. That's here in l._a. Right yes let me just tell you something. I got you know with the first time i had july when i was a kid. My parents took me. One of those really cheat tourist. I think so unhappy and they're not complaining but it was like one of those you go on a bus. Get up at six o'clock in the morning so say that you'll be shitting. Shitty still tells we were in the hotel. Well are known italy and the mosquitoes were hitting the window trying to get out of the fucking room. I'm not get me outta here. These americans are annoying. Mosquitoes had people people met so anyway. I remember like we were in the plaza which is beautiful because italy unlike the other they have like a center of town or parts of town and it's beautiful and there's like fifty rows deep of like places to sit and have coffee and enjoy the evening grateful anyway so i'm. I'm saying though like i this before when he was a kid but this was like before i was appreciating like that i remember like i'm reading this salata which i never even heard of and remember eating in the first thing i did when i took a by. I got angry because i didn't know that it was just kind of ice cream. Nobody told told me to tasted good. Who you guys have been holding out on me so i got angry. I felt very similar when i ate that cookie. What is doing kind of cook. You vegan cookie. I just didn't know what there's a good thing as a good vegan cook. It's a vegan was shocked with chocolate chocolate chips but it's ridiculously seriously the dust yeah. It's insane because he's made out of like garbanzo. It's made a garbanzo. Amos's seriously those yes. It was a meat. It said the e._v. takes their creamy. Take a bear bonzo anus and then you crack it and then you you you make out of it and had a chaka. It's not even chocolate. Chips is it. What is it like arab. No no no. I hate chocolate fucking indecent chocolate. I don't know i'm just saying like those. People have have a deal with if if you believe in god then there's got to be the opposite right because there's everything connected then. She has to deal with them on that woman sure well. I it goes by going back to the puppy yes so the puppy was here. The puppy was here kids losing their hour and it was the best thing ever seriously it was amazing. Running with the kids just had the greatest time we do have a dog but it's an older though it's a dog that's like it's more like an alligator our dog. The dog is i remember one time. We had a jumping and it was jumping up and i said this is like a fucking alligator. Long likes literally bit they other. It's been another dog like five times in your dog is very cute. He's a very and he looks like a fucking lethal weapon now. It looks like yeah. I love the dog but he's just a <hes>. It's tough. I mean you just but anyway. He's not getting all older fast. He's not cute to be honest and what if he listens to this show. He's going to hear that. Somebody's the he sleeps in here. He's going to pick that up in the well. He's not that kid anymore just because he's like fucked up everywhere like his ears are fucked up so he has to wear this sir comfy cozy. It's fucked up right now. I'm working on it. He doesn't play catch anymore. He plays watch rub. Throw the ball and go get it now. I i do take him for a walk and then he'll just like now. Let's go back yeah. He says you're going in but anyways fun and full of energy and they're just like running running and cheese. Mrs right size to the other door knocks our kids over. I know the best part of having this puppy was what we left. Yes it was you're a few hours only pissed once and then we kind of reminded you luckily on the hardwood floor he he stayed away from the carpet which is awesome and then just reminding you like hey. This is not a hundred percent positive this puppy thing but it's amazing because is he left and that was that was beautiful. It was nice you had like ed like a puppy diaper commercial moment you know like when you see babies impoverishing diver commercials is just all they never show them biting your fingers and shitting on the rattling moment whiting wiping their ass slowly the little swell what would would you call up. The scoot scoot scoot in the divor commercial. It's like year carpet toilet paper. I mean your carpet. Is the toilet paper. Say wait a minute it. They should show it. I can wipe my ass on this carpet. This is what this is perfect. You do have nice carpet. The scoot scoot scoot scoot and then you see like the brown member old houses those horrible yes. I was like a brown line. What is that how did that brown line. Then you realize you looked over and it was like just scratching scratching scoot really really quick side story. I wanna go right back to but my friend was watching. My dog floyd wants and i love this dog. I love that name. He was the kindest. I can't be a tiny dog floyd use. He's a very big dog. Who's the most wonderful what kind what he was a rescue that was going to be an alaskan sled dog in his posner too sensitive and someone threw them outside aside and my wife rescued him and he the perfect dog and my friend was walk not not perfect for sledding obviously not per- perfect fan but rancher he was a complainer. How do you know in the dog says i can't do this is is lift his legs to hide as you. Are you whining wind okay. It's not good. It's a winner. He's a huge winer so the kids love weiner's sway again getting from the story so my friend is watching my dog and he calls me up kind of pissed off. He's a guy you wouldn't believe your your dog. Just did and i go what and he goes. I was taking him outside and he goes. He went to ticket dump. He got into the squad and he said halfway through the action. My friend got an important phone. Call which i actually find hard to believe based on his career in he stopped my dog mid dump and brought them inside the house house and he said my dog looked him right in the face and drooling fucking line in the sand like he literally did like the ashtray and i was like fuck became good for him. His anyone ever deserved it more like you mentioned. If you were in the middle of the middle of the dump somebody just grabbed by the arms and pushing the car. He deserved it. Let them finish what you were saying that like well you could you could. You've heard of even to renting dogs. Yes you can't do that don yeah for parties. Yes you can rent puppies. Not dogs only but puppies like the most amazing experience for kids really make your dog feeling shit. If you've run a dog doc. I feel bad for camillo. We can't rent him. Camille is going to know the dogs. Here is going to be walking around the women. No it's a young dog. He's gonna think he's getting replaced well. He is all. Can we be more like more like an ace rent. A car type of rental shuttle off off airport eases sweet sweet all dog camille bowel rent a wreck. My grey-haired oldie. I know so wasn't gonna say anyways anyways. Yeah you can rent who need all sorts of animals. I we had a pony. One time. Come over it wasn't a pony was a dunk donkey raynham sorry. Where do you run a dog. Tell the rent dog dot com. You can look up this thing on the internet. No purchase convinced me. You can get anything on the internet so we gotta pony there. Nobody get like a donkey donkey yeah sure but he was a donkey from the movie their religious six famous donkey so this. This is like a donkey that that has a history with miranda. Did he goes you. Gotta talk you with an i._m._d._b. Page i mean that's not just a regular. This donkey ed credits came name and everything was amazing. Deal started eating grass and rebels like okay you know him out because he wasn't eating the grass. He was like ripping out taking piece of turf. Yeah i was like okay enough. Okay okay. Let's lift him up here and then the other kids were we. They wouldn't right now gone. No they all got the chance they just the third and forthright that would bother me though the law no big deal. You don't wanna frigging dot. You're ruining your on yeah well. If you don't want to ruin your donkey and the first you let me tell you this. Is you get the insurance when he was on the whole grass came up and literally like the edge of the house has been picked up by his teeth. He like doing the whole who's just like. It was like a cartoon. He was lifting holding the all the the whole lawn is like being lifted up like at out of here there was there was before we had the <hes> as as miranda calls the monkey tower yeah yes yeah madeline wasn't even went here. I didn't even realize it's we have the monkey tower which is just basically. It's a slide place this time lakeville. It'll like a little rock thing clam up like a little where they call it. The rock climbing wall swings for two year olds a rock climbing wall and swings and then <hes> and turned into place for snails nails. The fox is it's hell. It's hell for snail snails. I can just come. I'm fine. This is nothing snails and snails babies elsa just fucking all night. There's a pile what does that pile in between the thing and it's it gets nails. Shit is a pile of snails and they just they just they just there's like oh. My god makes them are slide makes makes every snail neighborhood super horny. I'm not even kidding you. When i was walking in there i heard snuggled another snail. Hey meet the monkey tone. No it's author can vary. This is the perfect amount of shade moisture and sly. You know a lot about snails. I've been out there with the kids and we're knocking off the snails with gently gently. Miranda's passion in her school was i wanna talk about <hes> is schools is going to be the subject the dogs the schools now. Here's the the thing her passion <hes>. Why don't you tell people but our daughter six year. Olds passion was at school passionate about ten after report about and everything anything until and it changes every few changes so they ask you what your passion is. Your daughter said bugs bugs insects. Yeah yeah bugs isn't yeah. Insects is she. She been made aware of the snail hotel yeah but she's just basically like you know. If there's like a bug don't kill it which i get you you know but right. Now we make a rule put the dangerous spider and <hes> probably not gonna make outside might make it to the tissue. You might make it to the toilet. Make it to the blades. A sweater might make it to my bottom of the slipper too. I was at your house and i found a spider to you. Remember i patricia rob was not here and there was this spider. It was just about scary level. You know like the little one meal and i would normally you have just killed a spider yeah but both of your your cute children were watching me and so i decided rob i would kill the spider but pretend that i had not killed this white house. That was my plan so i got it. He still everything's good. I'm just gonna go. Release them outside and i thought i'd kill them. Fucking thing was still alive. I really saved his life. I really really saved them. Almost i mean almost killed her. She's ninety now and she got bit on the ass by a spider. She had to get like a round of antibiotics. Therapy in patricia has got like you know but you know what like a spider instincts because one time she said no. I think i got a feeling she opened up the no the bed because what happened was we. We used to live in the hollywood hills and the hollywood hills is a hill on the side and it was like you don't realize like spider billet. There's like you know there's been spiders there for hundreds of thousands of one hundred and you know and they're coming through there and there's like and you just decide to build a house there while your house is going to be is on the way the spiders are getting someplace. Well yeah you know. I stayed made in that house. Yeah in the in the room was in the lower part of the house and rob schneider. I just met him. I was kinda nervous to be staying your house for the first time we were working together on something he came into the room and i was like can nervous excited and i had my pants on. What are you talking. Where's this going get your parents nervous in japan's on the first and good and you said to me <hes> you're like i'll probably get up early and we'll do some work and go. Hey for you go to bed. Check for spiders eternal life. It wasn't screwing around there. Were big spiders like we ends yeah. I got inside of the bathroom it. I swear. I thought that someone was staring at me. No notice you serious like when you feel exhausted staring at you and then i turned and it was this huge his biter on some of these honestly scared the shit out of us these spiders in hollywood and this is this area of the hollywood hills. Were so fucking big helping. I'm not kidding dating. I'm talking about like you know like size of a quarter and like with the legs and everything big bodies a quarter yeah. Two bodies are the big vendors and like you know. Maybe i'm exaggerating a little bit but it was a different kind like literally. I'm not kidding. I was never been scared more scared shitless of animal a muslim insect. There was like next to the shower same shower that we're the spider was was like masturbating watching our he's rich. Oh exit somebody choices. I think i got get this figured out too much steam so i remember like i thought it was. I swear to god. I thought it was a small pile of leaves. Oh yeah i remember that and it was fucking spider and it seemed like half dollar size. I'm not kidding you. It was absolutely and it's like it had it was a special i never i try to look it up and then there's this thing i did look it up. I looked like the most dangerous like the wolf spider or the what they call it. Wolf spider is like a poisonous as in a spider also dangerous. I took care of it. You recognize that one because it goes. Oh you ask is a real thing. Thanks wolf spider. I've heard of it. The only turned into a full moon. Oh yes all right relate to a bad guys. We have to have it won't around. Reckless is brown. Recluse which is also goes by the name of wolf spider can matt not exist. Wait a minute. I one of our one of our interns and look it up right now. Check it out to you. Assholes souls here. It is by our lovely intern. Wolf spiders are members of the family lacking from the ancient greek and meaning wolf they they are robust and agile hunters okay. Did you know that pest management professionals will often place glue traps. The wolf spiders have been seen in order to remove them. Okay yeah yeah so anyway. Wolf spider bite venom toxicity by the spider is poisonous but not lethal all right what only scary q. aso although there i'm showing the picture non-aggressive they bite freely if provoked and should be considered dangerous is to humans freely not aggressive and they buy freely isn't that one of the members of of freely he was kicked. Come out right bite freely. He was the drummer right. Okay i really if provoked. They should be considered dangerous to humans so you know laughing. The bite may be very painful rainfall first aid and medical attention medical attention sites. I i all went there. Okay i not i ate. I didn't i as you said first. Aid and medical attention should be sought as soon as possible particularly jesus lonzo shanto mimi. It goes okay okay. It's it's yeah it's dangerous says they're not aggressive and then talks about how much shit they're going to do to walk by but anyway but i remember like taking said. Let me just take a picture of this fucking thing. I let me just go look it up on my magic phone. I think ipad iphone. I phone six or eight or whatever the time it was one of those. It looked like my pitcher was better than the other pitcher but it was like the same spider except the pitcher on the internet was more blurry but flu yeah so anyway you know what is like <hes> before. We're gonna digress here talking about this because there's some of the comments about our fast growing podcasts gases were just meandering all over the place. Oh not from no i heard that from one person that in that you sent it to not all the reviews used by the way that's perfect reviews its. They're all five star. Reviews is listening. It really does help if you like the podcast to rate it interview and subscribe it is nice place subscribe but he don't want to be like <hes>. Somebody sent me a <hes> father's day. <hes> thing must father's day. I said <hes> great father and amazing father. Everyone agrees. You're an incredible father's. A picture of trump like amazing incredible. Everyone agrees. He's fantastic father everyone house to say what an amazing father you. A thousand people ooh yeah. You're amazing us. Good my buddy from high school. Buddy buddy another word for stalker stalker. That's sometime. He's my buddy. He's the best sweetheart start off as more of a stockers well he was like we're actually friends with the cat. We went to school together. He was a year ahead of me and and we're friends. We have well the my friend we didn't. He live in the tree right next next to your house he we're friends with craig frasier and the great guy and that's kauai freight craig passed away and i got stuck with what he that was his gift what he's been career beautiful beautiful kids sweetheart monique and toby and they're great kids and he's a great so proud. The kid sends pictures of his kids and it was speaking kids. We're going to go well at school schools now. You have three kids. I do your youngest aug. What school is four now so you got to start thinking about preschool right yeah what he what. Are you thinking like. I mean 'cause like we had. I mean we had some choices out here basically out in malibu you got like well you don't have choices here but hippy or hit more more hippyish school or less guilt. Maybe oh yeah hippest medium hippie fall on hippie or do something really quick about hippie. Actually this morning i was driving and i was actually like going to <hes> parkway calabasas and i saw this guy by getting out of his car. He was barefoot. That's disgusting. He was used walking like he was going to go to like do some <hes> dry-cleaning or something but he was seriously anki. He got out of a prius yeah so i don't i like. I didn't understand that level of i was. I was confused because he's like this guy homeless. Is this guy just hippie. I don't understand could be a wealthy hippie. What's wealthy. Homeless hippie ayob steps on a wolf spider. I mean that is so disgusting. Now i just girls. Sometimes you see like the girl hippyish girls those who walk barefoot and it just you know have you never i mean they're drunk and there's like there's like how many their heels off and they just walked drunk. Okay let's say during the day let's go. Let's go. Let's let's keep the sun up for this. One girl's thunder just like during the daytime walking around you know whatever and i was like i i grew up in san francisco where we had the what i would call. The chinese handkerchief was that which is just the chinese guys hey blowing his nose but covering one nostril and legs is expelling this onto the pavement and i was like hey i am never wearing shoes inside the house ever again and i must more catching but anyway. I just remember like chinatown which we used to spend you know. My parents took us janet down every <hes> every sunday until there was a shooting in chinatown the town one of the restaurants and one of the triads triad gang shootings. We never went back to chinatown ever again. That was at my mom and that's it see what happens. We're never going ever again to chinatown. That's eight. It's via the people are shooting. That's not much las. Dos knows it but so anyway we're going back to school. Yes sorry that's what your person was commenting about me just digressing. I don't know this is just our normal normal talking. We always go like question free school. The one that you you with regular school you can choose public or private and policy-free preschools. You always always pay for yeah yeah. You have to pay something but they do pre k. and yeah. I think that's public like these. They'll take these kids pre-k okay. If the kid can can use a toilet basic he soon as they're out of diapers. You can take him in but there as a quote. I mean he uses it to throw it into. He's good at okay as long as use the toilet for some reason but if some places you can have like you know they'll even change your diaper. Whatever but the school that we took our kids so when she was three <hes> now they've required us. My daughter trained my son on to use the bathroom when he was like late twos. That's awesome. Wow your daughter did that yes. She just took it upon herself. Can we borrow prior to. She's a little madeline because miranda's not into training. Her sister talks to him when he's he's in the potty. She goes in and like entertained him nice. Wow that's pretty nuts pretty nuts what we're doing because you guys know my family's in alaska aska. I only see them like one week a month and so now you've only moran that's the situation but probably a montessori. Were other kids went. You know what the what i would like to to try for for little madeline month. Sorry what is the theory behind montessori. Let me get one of our interns. Look it up can look montessori. Basically what i under- turn turn to look it up. I mean me to look at one of our one of our see. What happens interns is going to look up. You're exactly right replay the three play they sort of pick what they wanna play with isn't that it and yeah the lady would it her name's montessori the lady that <hes> that invented it and they don't force you to do certain things as you could all kind of be doing something different. It's kind of like like <hes> at seaworld. They don't force to the wheel the whale to do a trick if they don't want to force to kindergarten or do anything yeah. I think might be better than this school that we took maranda to. It's not a bad school but it's like it. Has this beautiful philosophy about about like you know environment and blah blah blah however are doing it right or what we think is wrong with her. I i just i used thanked that. They really don't know how to manage. <hes> kits conflict well well. I would say that i would say that. They're they're management that they chose to use isn't one that you'd think it was effective. I mean for them. They may basically we like for instance one of our kids. One of our kid got bit by one of her classmates bid and they wouldn't tell us which one bit as if we're not. It's policy not to tell you as soon as we get miranda who bit the me. He got me yeah. Why would why would you not get to know exactly what i mean like as if we wouldn't find find out from our own kid anyway because that's the policy of the school and like also something else happened. They won't tell you what happened. Exactly if there is a conflict or a fight or something they were just like a very a non-confrontational kind of thing and then like. I just didn't like the verbiage. That was coming out to me i didn't i didn't like the way like they learned is is weird. The closer channel was basically means like you have to close the channel in other words like finish the thing you don't just leave something undone finish. It kind of makes sense now that i think about. I never thought about it. I never thought about it until my wife actually closer channel the last ten years when they make the kid stuck about about the whatever the fighting right and the problem with that in my humble humble formal opinion of the mexican is that they're too young to to really grasp into you only use it. I don't mind them talking about the problem in apologizing like if if one kid hit the other kid really fix it i mean they just say what happened and that's it. I think sometimes you yeah you got. Hey knock that shit off for sure. You know what i mean like but that's i don't know if that's the right way. Either through totally like i mean i just remember like is now four from my i mean i think he could be like the next goal. We're taking around is like the opposite of the hippy school. She's going to catholic school which is like we're not only. Is this like you. Oh forget about closing your channel and like did you guys. Is there another week. They possibly can work this out. Whatever's like you're going the opposite listen. God is judging internal domination if you do that again which is a little different than you think. Is there another way that positive. Is there another solution to begin. Maybe think of it is about you. You're going to burn. There's a fiery place made for children adobe so i mean i think that's a little too far but i do think that like if i do think you need to have what we're saying is there needs to be some. If there's actions that happened there needs to be some accountability. Accountability culpability hope ability better. Oh yeah yeah isn't one of the greatest things ever the first time you see someone else yell at your kid when they deserve it. It's the greatest thing ever because you don't have to do it. You know like watching someone in a fair way. Straighten your kid out. I think he's gonna say that. I didn't yell at the kid today but when i was gymnastics wchs miranda was in line with the other girls one of the boys another boy who's bigger came just started bouncing on the the gymnastics they'd take their turns to tick this one section of the gymnastics place that bouncing bouncing and do the thing and then they they know they jump up and move their legs and up really high or apart or whatever ever and they do a flip or whatever so she's waiting line. This kid comes over jumping jumping jumping jumpy flipping flipping flipping jumping jumping jumping jumping and the teacher at there's not doing anything just waiting and i was fine. I couldn't take it home like hey kids. Let's get it together. It's motech moved out good for you can't do those things and he and she said and then the teachers i yeah yeah. Can you please let let's one more flip. She gave him one more and he he didn't even look over. Missiles will still shit shit. Hit didn't even look at me to be announced but he got off because the tone was like hey let's go. You're hogging the trampoline a bunch of girls over there you know when you when you're nuts descend a little bit you realize there's an something else more interesting than jumping on a trampoline selling. Oh the other day achim word in our friend australia. He was telling me that his brother he told his son because there was this kid bothering him at school yeah so he he told his son he said you are gonna tell that kid that if he hits you again you're gonna you're gonna hit him back and if he laughs at you or something then you're gonna tell him. I'm gonna hit him. Oh dan so that that wasn't gonna hit. The kid the other kid and it fixed the problem. I will tell you fix the problem but you know the the thing about it was like here's here's a really weird thing that happened was like their italian so it makes it okay so so like there's an incident that happened at school and the and we were furious about it because like they wouldn't tell us the kid that that bit our our kid and is like hey this is not a and i remember they we can't we can't have kid getting bit because this other kid's been bugging her and bugging her there and so i finally you know within you know our daughter told us who do better and then i said i'm going to i'm going to oh so i'm going to this is going to exist on the internet forever. You know i did apply the way i went to that school. Originally she is wearing a comfort cone now much safer so anyway so i said i was really pissed off and then i went and said to the teacher and is gonna tell sudan of course in our daughter told us right away so i'm gonna say something to the mom and so the teacher didn't say saying to the mother insane. I know but you know what i'm gonna say something so. I said we handle it in house here kind of whatever kind of thing so. I said hey listen you. Do your kid bit my kid and she just wouldn't have been funny. If she was like they would say posey. We're gonna take a quick break and i'm going to tell you all the places that you can come m._c. Me rob schneider live saturday august thirty first. I'm going to be at the rising sun casino. No in indiana that's the rising star casino resort rising star senior resort in indianapolis and <hes> indiana and then of course one of my favorite comedy clubs. You'll ever is a very odd place for a comedy club but it actually gives the comedies on jacksonville florida one of the best places places and we've been there. We have comedies zone jacksonville florida. That's september twenty and the twenty first before shows and then i'll be one one of the favorite places <hes> in the world that i love seattle washington at a tiny comedy club called laughs comedy club and that's just the one night <hes> seattle seattle washington thursday september twenty sixth laughs comedy club and then the twenty seventh to september friday. I'll be at coquitlam b c. That's it's the most in canadian theatre hard rock coquitlam. That's gotta be a british columbia and that's the molson canadian theatre hard iraq and i'll be there for one night and then <hes> stateline next week stateline nevada the mont-bleu casino resorts spot that's tober fourth only couple mortgages and then rohnert park october fifth saturday at sally tomatoes and then <hes> i'll beat the blue lake casino october sixth and then caroline's for the week of october eleventh through the thirteenth and hopefully genucel be there and we're going to be together all of us by the way now we have the mid la hoya the comedy store the twenty fifth through the twenty seven of october and then we're going to be performing together. We had the again move this gig as our t._v. The show real rob. We'll be real rob t._v. Show with your mind great jamie listen and the real rob show at cove you've aven resort and that's lakeville pennsylvania and the kobe resort best tend to be the somerset that'll be fun yeah right thanks guys nice and we are back with a lovely patricia schneider and and also the great jamie lonzo so what so <hes> i i saw the mother and i and i was still kind of also <hes> my my mind is going to give her a piece of my mind right. Sergei said excuse me so i gotta tell you <hes> your kid and it's funny. When in your mind you think of you know your kid bit my kid and its average of asthma asthma but the more than i than i was really going to happen the more i got softer as like hey i just got to tell you i'm already crumbling like a coward word that i'm just sorry to bother you. Is that my my my daughter's chest got in the middle of daughter's mouth to eat and <hes> so i said hey you know your kid bit my kid and then i saw her literally thrower hands interface and just kind of curled not not another thing. I just totally like forgot about what a horrible thing happen to my kid and they get once he's going through. This mom has got. He's got like other. It's us that she's dealing with. The wouldn't have anything about that. It's like wow this is just another thing piling on top of her and it literates but it's still is not okay that the school bill that was it for us. Basically at that point yeah we meant. We emotionally got out of that school. Took us another year but this this is another option and it was so convenient because there's literally just only forty thousand dollars a year so convenient now. They're going down the street the good stuff stuff about that school really really good now. There was some great stuff yes beautiful and great teachers terrific teachers. I think we're really loving and nice and there was only small amount of kids in the class so it's got its hat. It's real highs. You know i mean i. I really think that pre k. Stuff stuff whatever that was just a great time but i think as far as i mean i just i don't know i guess i want my kid to be as tortured as i guess school or something yeah yeah. Do you think it what is our transition. No yeah no. I do think now she's no. It's just i mean kids really up anything. Look i went to a catholic school yeah and then i was moved on. Wait a minute. You're mexican and you're catholic. Yes just checking and the other. There's a few jews out there in mexico city. There's a mexican us. There are some oranges us is nine jus. Let us so at this catholic school. I've never been to one. Is it really their nuns was your does your what was your experience. It was great. It was really good. The only thing that he was boring to me it was going to mess to be honest well first of all. You're a kid as a long time in their. You guys like it's like a mass is like it could be like. I'm not kidding. It's like an hour and a half an hour but still like you know. I went to catholic grope. Oh catholic just never went to catholic school and i think the reason they have you kneel down instead obvious to fucking keep you awake like it's so boring like every standup wanna make it was it was boring. Yeah it was more but but what were the good things about it. He liked it. I liked this structure to be honest. I think that like if you notice just like our kid was like you know it's funny because he takes taekwondo but she didn't take it like seriously and she's just like and i swear to god like what she was three were in there and and i said we're paying seventy five dollars a month to like just to annoy an an an old asian man left. That's the left. That's not your left. That's okay. That's your left. Okay yeah now. You're not kick not and then but <hes> now this is really good now now but because he was strict with her <hes> uh-huh and said if you're not going to concentrate or practice i'm going to take a beltway from you to him yeah but you know what though i think. That's the story the do you wanna thank. It was the successful one. I told miranda she was gonna turn into a ninja. I started being like okay. We see that's my asian background. It's just like see what happens. We'll see what happens what happens because that really is is it. If you don't do this then see what happens. That's why like asian kids are so successful in my opinion you don't see homes asian people who the whole thing about my act you don't see the homes you know but you know that that's why this asian people in my opinion because the parents are very strict and they my parents used to get good grades and my mama goal and i gue- mama got straight as so what job gets three days whether you do our job want cookie. She said it to me. What do you wanna cookie video job. Your it's your job. You're smart you want you want something excellent and do something extra. You don't hear me. You don't hear me saying hey. I cooked and cleaned. I'll get whether i get you do your job i do my job will keep his relationship nice and cold. Oh my gosh she's tough. Did you ever go yeah. I'll take a cookie. I'll to go hug now now no but i mean i'm exaggerating but not much but i i will say just like you know because the thing is like i mean it's just different. I mean it's hard to compare like this sounds like a crazy story but it's true my mother and her sister because confirmed by my sister by her sister that my mother <hes> because he costs money you go to school school. There's no like free public school at that. Everybody just kind of just assumes everyone who wouldn't get that my mother. You had to pay to go to school in the philippines. She found money that the japanese buried in a cave along with <hes> her father because the father abandoned the family she knows she would never met her father until he was older and she found money that the japanese buried in a cave along with these things that she thought could be valuable and they were. She thought they were like pineapple like metal pineapples. They were hanged grenades holy shit and to her that this could be valuable so let's take this back to and so one on <hes> her uncle so the you know. I am discussed blow. Don't that elite that rather don't and like yeah so that could have been it while she tells us other story but so so so that was like her ramona. She tells this other story about her bullet because she said the thing why she why she feels. She survived the war because she said i said well. How do why do you think you survive in other people. Didn't you know she said well. I was never afraid so so she had this one story where she was <hes> literally walking to school and there was this she called it her bullet which was this unexploded shell and she would kick it on the way and then you come back on the way home from school be back in military she'd kick it again and enroll whatever and she did this for days and one day he's walking to walking to school and the whole the japanese had cordoned off that area because those she said what's going on and they said the she she learned japanese as scott and is it the <hes> and she said what's going on well. There's a live round out there her and she kind of peaked over a bunch of people around and it was just that she said that's just my bullet was like she was kicking like unexploded it just because it was very very soft off the soil over there sometimes the bombs dropping. It wouldn't explode so this is an unexploded unexploded military ordinance. You know kicking so i mean so so those kind of things that she she didn't think she could die and she just you know. I think she's right. She's ninety now. Maybe a damn. I know the devils. You're doing so much good work up there. Keep going no not ready for you yet no but <hes> may i made her stories like i remember like when i was a little kid i would just like tell me another story and like you know very consistent with like you know i mean in some of the stories are like whoo i was with her because her brother both are brothers are killed by japanese during the war. One of them was in the debt. Marts her brother her oldest list brother bill was drafted when he was seventeen by roosevelt and it was interesting but like they were sixty. Seven countries have fought alongside the united adage states in world war two sixty six of the country's got death benefits in other words the united states we pay for their if you served alongside or or with the united states military very they would pay for your funeral service basically very nominal amount but still something for people who has also acknowledged it and so he was you know the only country country they didn't get it was the philippines now and so we're in two thousand there was like you know there's a few of us that went to congress and we ended up getting the death benefits for the mermaid all these guys in their eighties by then santa way both of a so one of her brothers mothers were killed in one of them. He's he survived the data on death march but then died afterwards thinking disinterring died. The other brother was like fifteen years old and said no and she was he was convinced. No my brother older brother didn't die. He escaped and he's up in the he's a rebel. He's fighting up. He's a guerilla. He's finding i. I'm going to go and so he <hes> got captured sure on his way there. My mom tried to convince him my uncle john not to go to the <hes> up there because you know he's fifteen. What the hell is you know. He's gonna get enough. You've got coppa japanese and a tortured him and beheaded him on oh and but the the thing about it was like the the thing was crushing was that that my grandmother <hes> his mother of victoria <hes> got contacted by the japanese when he said like you. If you wanna come get your son come pick them up but then she knew because you know all the stories that you hear give you go then. They torture you in front of the <hes> son to get information but he had no information give so she had to decide. I gotta help keep his other kids. You know if i go then who's going to help get food and everything for these other kids kids of her other kids. She had three other girls so she had to make that decision to let that sunday. It was a horrible thing so anyway so but the the point of the story was like i was with my mother her sixtieth high school reunion which was up in the bay area and there was only alike eight of her classmates still alive and <hes> that's where she discovered would really happen to her own. Brother was that why the japanese captured him why canoe some because he was wearing his brother's army boots and so he said well they armed with you must know something must be part of it you know and he's a tall kid and he's half american. Okay my my mom's. A thousand was american soldier who she didn't meet until the no. That's another long story but anyway so just to bring everybody down onto that yeah. That's really sad yes but the that's what my mother carries a this this really intense stuff and that's why like when i was a child i didn't understand and like my mother was the worst survivor and that extended into us so we were ended up like second generation war survivors. You're gonna eat that potato. I used to walk to three. I have to walk through this went up but that oh have to negotiate with the peasants farmers for you know we still take bedsheets and make by amazon them for that to get potato then i have to walk and then the japanese shooting doesn't if they if they didn't kill us they would steal are good but those side that won potato put it in my shoe and they bring back where mothers monday japanese they install our potatoes and i got stuck in my show my mother she she would feed us for three days on the one sweet potato one kamata and she which is they would take skin you burn the skins you dummy and that would be our coffee because it looked like coffee because they burned the skin of the komo tei and it just looked. It's same color so so there's like i'm with taste like something while she was just pick water to the komo. Make super whatever the can make out of it but i mean there's the her stories like i mean. What did you say after light is susan. You gotta eat that because and then she tells you can't when you're seven and eight i mean i remember very very well. Yeah yeah i mean you would. I mean something they also that she was not so now. It's touching my mom just eight. You couldn't leave anything on your plate right well yeah. That was the point you know my my dad had spider. You know he throws out why you still got. He has got mold on it. She's like we can cut the mold off. I can make soup out of it so we'll. I'm not gonna eat it. We know we can do said well we do. We throw it away then. We get new foods the same as that <hes> we don't that with your that away and get the same again. She's understand that old constable danceable wasting food you know but she say that in america there's a lot of waste ridiculous. Oh yeah and you know it's a weird weird thing. It's like even even it's like for people who are starving if for people who are like homeless and people like we have a ton of homeless people here the restaurants it's like they can't even <hes> use any of the food this leftover they literally have to like. It's just like i mean the the state has laws about like you know literally. Throw it out in the dumpster. They have to like put bleach on it and stuff. It just really yeah. It's just it's horrible. Stupidity california's the dumbest case a homeless person gets sick ensues the restaurant everything that has to do with getting soon in america yeah exactly everything too bad. There's not some way too right right. You would think the grocery store you would think like you know. Let's not throw that away. We can make you know those avocados. We can probably make out of that. You know but it's it's. It's it's crazy. You know there's a documentary on netflix like they're not enough like wait a minute wait a minute. Are you saying netflix says documentaries. Yes row whoa. I know it's just one about this. One is about wasting food and also it's about how the yeah well you know people. When you go to the grocery store everything has to look perfect by it so if for instance you pick up like this bananas and then they're like a couple of you know like spots in there whatever you get bruised but people don't buy them those go two ways i. I know you're right like perfect in europe. They don't let you touch the fruit you might get a bruise here and there has has been anna i put a little bleach on you know <hes> but you're right about that and that's why the lot of gets <hes> wasted because because also apparently people go to the grocery store and they don't see massive amount of apples and you know tomatoes onions and they are not interested in to buy them. You know what's interesting is like amounts right like sensors. The fruit will drop off on the floor and they'll just pick it up and put it right back on like if you see that happening. You won't get that fruit but you don't know which one you see idea should wash. I should always get the best and americans were spoiled. It's the same reason that we want to squeeze the fruit and ruin it just in case which does happen the same reason why people get a in america won't get out of the fast lane on the highway. It's like this feeling of like this is mine. I pay my taxes or i'm doing this. I i don't have to get out of the way just because you're in a hurry or whatever and it's like that is just not the european. They can't or asia if you don't if you do that if you refused to get out of the fast fastlane in germany they will run you off the road. Oh hell yeah and then some journal vol hobbled oozes village vodka voss loss vaas. They said well the the guy wouldn't get out of the way for them. Of course you kill him. Why wouldn't you wrong. I've run them off the road again. Run over him again but in americans like i got this. It's this i don't no. It's kind of this feeling that <hes> you've <hes> entitlement yeah. It's like an anxious minority. You've you go around where you send a bitch. I think it's the same thing with the with the fruit squeezed food. I feel like i'm a pretty good. I'm not a very selective produce guy. I i can go with first available and i would like to give myself credit for being if someone flies by me in the fast lane and then cut me off. I'm like dude fucking. Do it like. I don't get competitive. I go get up there. Buddy wherever you're sometimes you're going pretty fast. I drive fast drafts. I drive too fast but you know i like it. I want to get some. Usually you know little late or whatever so usually late yeah. That's driving some place to get someplace and i'm like driving fast. I mean if i drive right fast especially with the night as many cars but like if i'm driving and you can just tell somebody like i just drove back from vegas usually about a five and a half hour drive twenty minutes the three and a half hours. I got back how crews i'm dying to say something. But what we're i don't remember the number you fill me but rob says to me he's driving. Your guys is cool maserati yeah and i and he goes. I really like this car. He goes but man i. I don't love the way it handles it and then he says a number a crazy speed. What would you think it was because 'cause i love is a great guy. I don't like the way hands one ten minutes now. It doesn't handle a one ten. Nothing whoa no no. I'm sorry i'm sorry a lotta sandals one ten so does of soda porsche carerra so there's a porsche turbo so does the ferrari. That's a mess variety maserati. It's a family maserati cards. Get a you. Gotta go straight ninety. You're fine but if you wanna get somewhere really said to me if you want to talk a great carbon. It just doesn't handle like you would think at one ten. Let's fucking. Maserati goes one ninety. He's supposed to what it says on there if you want if you're on a track if you wanna die no but anyway in europe they drive faster and i started driving in europe or or europe but it's a european car. It's expecting it twelve cylinders use them depar- won't respect you. If you're just using six twelve odd ah you're gonna drive me. And what are you what are you. I'm expecting you to come back home. Safe worry about rob. I yeah worried when he told me i was like oh. I got really really worried when he when you said that. The tesla broke your back home because they drive live me doesn't do that. What do you mean. It doesn't do that no auto drive. There's no feature the greatest thing listen listen listen. Yes it is no. I pay twenty five hundred dollars. I pay twenty five over five thousand whatever it was rob. I don't know my accountant said i spent something home home claimed from a comedy club and claimed the tesla's amazing that feature that drives you home dropped me off patricia on is it does have have defeat. It has an it's got the blue thing a little thing that blue thing is. It's like an advanced cruise but it doesn't it steers for you. It's just if you switch your lane but it doesn't take you home doesn't like oh wait a minute. That's the that's the i need to. Oh yeah. We'll the navigation system does with the <hes> the driving self driving car patricia. I don't want to scare you but rob was going to the comedy recall last night. He brought a pillow and a blanket. Now this way you can check your phone and and do what you need to know you to use. That's why i paid the extra money for. I look up once in a while. I'm not an idiot no but that cars. That's why i got it for you so you know when you're on the highway it's usually further highway and you can actually you you can actually put in. I want four car distance between me or five and you put distance you know in the very advanced cruise. It doesn't yes yes but it also also steers the lane for you. Yes if not switch lanes. It stays in the same lane forty. If you want you have to you have to switch lanes and switch lines for you guys on. I'm trying to break into your house. I think patrice is right my my car. If you get too close to something it makes a crash but anyways we already talked about in the he's still thinks that it did you know didn't well. You were just too tired. You don't remember how you got home. How you going back home. We'll have to fix this another time. Yes so anyway neil. I'm sorry i mean we did so anyway so this episode of had to do with we talked about spiders. It'd be schools. Catholic schools the war war stories from my mother and then <hes> the self driving car. Was there anything else i that's that's okay. Let's just make sure we get everybody so patricia. <hes> i love these new videos at your work and people find them on instagram am am i. Yes i do a lot of cooking him. I asked i am patrizia miami miami tricia patricia tricia my m a way. Yes and you're doing a lot of beautiful videos that i love. I love and i've been needed you do the eating out to kill them. What about jamie lewis or what is. It got. Jamie foxx now jamie foxx super translation over there. You can find me on tinder at janus. No i'm on. I'm on instagram. Farmer's daughter dot dot com. What is it what is the farmers. One farmers only fucking inhabit warm in on that. I think you're you're safe not had a farmer united dealing with these girls. You're paying. Let me see them. Hands your pants. Stop your waist supposed to go on your shoulders. <hes> yeah i'm i am. Jamie lesot all right on his also ruptures on the grads on your gig. You're writing at c._b._s. Right now. Are you allowed to talk about that. Ice strand yeah right in for <hes> <hes> what's his show again. Chosen man plan come on matt. Leblanc matt leblanc whose comedy legend sweetheart isn't every as a nice guy. He's he's a nice guy i've ever been he isn't rate ackerman. He keeps his as as well he years and years of experience on that show is great worked with all those great people kevin neal's come on how <unk> how amazing is the amazing kevin nealon amazing kevin nealon lee thomas at high all right so <hes> we'll catch us again and thank you for listening subscribed to say what happens because if you do and if you listen to the great <hes> jameel assam incredible and larry's patricia maya tree schneider you will see tap. That's a good ending right okay well. I like it. I don't have anything else. Thanks you're listening the food.
The Presidential Cabinet- The Sequel
"Hey everybody welcome to let's get cynical mini episode we're updating you on the presidential cabinet so grab your new secretaries unless it's difficult hi guys were coming to you on the fourth of july yes yes on a thursday were dropping are first mini episode today and i couldn't be more excited could be mark that'd be more excited it's not like we're gonna be just yet but it's gonna be mental we'll have shrunk we have not trunk we've not sean i thought you said we're drunk and i would like not also probably when this episode comes out we will we will probably be not only not tober it'll be the fourth of july will be celebrating her independence will be celebrating the country celebrating hotdogs hamburgers oh my but i am so excited to do this cause even talking not doing this for a long time that we're updating are cabinet episode guys if you pay attention to what's going on in the news you as well probably know that we lost a lot of cabinet members and making are archived episode kind of define yeah because it's so we're gonna go through these presidential cabinet an update you on who is now one anybody who knocked out i'll leave it at the door you know so a first update there is still an eye on cabinet it comes between the be any ends yeah there you go that's still how you spell cat up and i have taken out my iranians end that it was put in you did a double in at some point and i've i've since learned that it's not who i am cabinet cabinet cabinet cabinet cabinet okay so let's start at the top vice president vice president's it's still a mike i keep thinking that he stood the test of time in probably will probably just waiting for or a big enough crime happy for him this will become the mc you a yes so mike pence is still the vp not nothing surprising their ira now next up we attorney general for a refresher this was delegates for the first ten days of administration appraiser phrase a she wasn't obama obama appointee but trump administration asked her to stay on as acting attorney general until they could appoint a new one and she said yes and then she's told administration and that mike flynn had some ties with russia that were quite nefarious which end okay and he was vulnerable to blackmail by russia from because of these various dealings and they didn't like that the trump administration and not sharing network and then trump past his muslim ban wrote the executive order and she said that she would refuse to defend trump's muslim ban she was immediately dismissed america near side they sell it and then it was jeff session oh oh jess his ears enter before him jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff it was him former senator from alabama he angered trump when he when he recused himself from the russia investigation because trump appointed tim is like who's really hoping that sessions would you get rid of the russia investigation yeah yeah and then when sessions is like i'm i'm recused myself trumped in like that and so they had a lot of back and forth about like yeah shot on him on a daily sessions lasted as long as he did because of how many times he trump tweeted i'm proud of adjustment jeff sessions were sticking up for so long odds sentence disaster you're proud of that nine sentence what he'll do next funny you should ask because there's chatter that he could run for the alabama senate seat that's open at one point that roy more is now running for mhm oh i think it's doug jones a cbs defendant yeah yeah but roy moore has announced he's running again the guy who is accused of you know yet actually assaulting children children so get together and alabama alabama you're better you're betting this then it with matthew whitaker is acting attorney attorney general for about three months great great it is william bar bar will remember him quite recently from china keep russia the molar report i think we have everybody listen to her attorney general episode we talk all about attorney general now next up secretary of state first we had rex tillerson who oil executives executive as secretary of state and makes hunter cell phones but also did not get along with trump at all now very much did not a lot a lot of trouble there yet a mind him like when when trump nominated him i was like oh oily yeah it out in oil executive but honestly it's like it's like trying to really i think he tried and i think he like he understood what trump is doing yeah and he was like this man it's not very by rex resigned as we remember and then it became mike pompeo go and he's been any sanctuary states in april twenty six twenty eighteen mike pompeo is the former director of the cia he served in the army and you represent kansas in the house mitch mcconnell's sweet mitch wants him to run for senator in kansas in twenty twenty trust to replace pat roberts who's been in the senate since nineteen ninety seven and he has decided not to run for reelection so basically he's just like but like like would you rather run to the center secretary of state well there's also talked about hugh 'cause he wants to like the next thing they're talking about running for president in twenty twenty four mike pompeii oh yeah yeah so then call me politically i think this is from you know it's true love yeah they're talking about running for president so the whole debate is it's like a twofold debate what's the better stepping stone secretary of state or the senate and arguably like traditionally it's been this like the senate is the better not many cabinet members gone to be president weird yeah secretary no no it's it seems more official yeah i would've been hillary clinton clinton yeah but the other part of it is that mitch mcconnell wants him to run for senate because right now the racist between like between chris co bach who's like super horrible horrible racist bigoted person super conservative very very extreme on the right and then caffeine's bilious who is the former governor so he want somebody who's like an actual republican candidate could yeah like potentially win the state yeah yeah i love that so it's it's my it's my man if a hook don't run like okay whatever that's absolutely well now the next secretary secretary of the treasury i hate this guy i know stephen asian guy sorry i'm not gonna scream nope it's fine he's still worst worst the shit seen any underpants this cabinet sorry and don't like steve mnuchin steven mnuchin he's been there the whole administration i after this at the time up there with mountain mike pence he was the finance chair for trump's campaign during which time he quote met with hundreds of business leaders according to the white house did you that's so the first news like i you know i i know this very like name drops you know this famous person i've been to brad pitt's house you know like right like that sort of thing that i have not been privates also it'd be insane but that's what he's like yeah like when you look at his face and you're like no gross links even who who he is a former partner yoyo goldman sachs before he left to form his own financial company he wants to move fun fact he wants to move the secret service back under the auspices of the treasury department and i feel like this is not i'm i'm reading between the lines here but i feel like he wants to do that solely so that he can play like the cyber security toys yeah that would come out like that's the only reason i know sense for the secret service to be under the treasury department it makes no sense right the top secret service agents support the move because they think like the department of homeland security where they're currently where they're currently housed and have been since two thousand three since nine eleven they don't fully support their mission which is shouldn't just make sure nobody died they were trying to keep everybody alive they're really not a hundred percent behind it but the treasury department and they get it yeah yeah so that's that's diminishing their religion munition the new i don't i don't care it doesn't matter he doesn't matter i don't like him okay defense at first it was james mattis who we generally jet jet 'cause a general who's the general but i'm i'm one of you is the one of the highest approved cabinet members and he served until december thirty first for he resigned an draw trump for his inability toledo and foreign affairs he he left in a fiery letter in protests and he said and i quote it is clear that china and russia for example one shape a world consistent with their authoritarian model gaining veto authority over other nations economic diplomatic and security decisions to promote their own tryst at the expense of their neighbors america and are allies this is why we must use tools of american power to provide for the common defense he's quoting okay because you have the right to have a secretary of defense whose views are better aligned with yours on these and other subjects i believe it is right for me to step down from my position so he's literally like you should have someone who agrees with you because mama doesn't know we have different views on china china and russia and therefore i must resign 'cause i think here's her bat shit yeah he yes yup look james with a bang up the actor james woods pat shanahan who wasn't acting secretary of defense acting not confirmed firmed up but withdrew his nomination in light of domestic violence incidents regarding his family in two thousand eleven okay no no after that it is mark as asper espn martin as far as acting secretary secretary of defense again not confirmed he is a former army secretary west point classmates of palm pale thought in the persian gulf war both he and shanahan were with trump when they admin with citing how to respond to i ran and the downing of usa trump drone so yeah they were both in the i mean i feel like the secretary defense is in jesus christ now well and the former acting and therefore and erica james somebody called honestly asking what james james with jay we're not going to war with i ran right were not doing it right we're not no no don't or so that's that's where secretary defense is it's currently acting defense mark i considered events mark asper secretary of the interior was has been for the majority of the trump administration ryan zinke he's a bit of a character according to fox he road a horse to his first day of work oh my god he displayed his nice collection at the office until security staff on his first day out like his first job post paper on lincoln m the security is asked him to take it down his knife collection was third this is a huge issue here could you please just services just tired they're just tired they're just like you you have we can't do everything right after meet halfway you have to leave you can't say i've i've collection and the little the little mini cannon that you have on your desk or gonna need you give it give it back he meant it his own challenge coin oh my god breaking his off and he had his office fly a flag whenever he was in the building a queen queen elizabeth added no no no he's like oh my god ryan's here like the right hire american specially that's so stupid okay great he left disgrace let's be honest his contract is triggered twelve federal investigation great draining the swamp one one dude at i collection you're not alone in this included a twelve thousand three hundred seventy five dollar charter flight to see a hockey game of a team those owned by a donor so he did some shady shit twelve federal investigations him he resigned now it's david bernhardt confirmed in april but he's been acting secretary since january so will see what i would do it i bernard alright cold sure this is been the same since the beginning getting it is sony purdue former governor of georgia this fun fact this wasn't a cabinet position it was used to be a commissioner of agriculture until eighteen eighty nine today becoming a position in mentioned that before dose is still there who cares who cares about sunny i don't care about sunny i'm sure he does i'm sure he cares about but he did he wasn't designated survivor at the last state of being the one before the union so someone cared okay buddy secretary of commerce is wilbur ross he is known as he king of bankruptcy 'cause he buys up feeling businesses mainly in the steel in manufacturing industries and and sells them after he moves average during the government shutdown may you may recall that he suggested that furlough employees go take out a personal loan to cover their expenses yeah they did they if they were going to get their salaries yeah if get paid and just take it alone be like why though heart also eve this do this do this year guy who's really shady wanting the citizenship question on the census for ripley 'em like bad reason end as we now know the supreme court has decided to keep this in the citizenship question off the twenty twenty census right next door neighbor alex acosta it's also stood the test of time bless his heart the only hispanic person to serve in trump's cabinet he's qualified he's not gonna be able to be like he actually has the experience to do this and he served on national labor relations board any assistant attorney general for civil rights he opened be emmett till case emmett till a was eight young black boy who was brutally murdered by a group of white men and he reopens opens that case to the you know hold those men accountable it's a symbolic gesture and he authorized the federal intervention in oklahoma case it helps ensure students right to wear job in school so not the worst he's at least doing something so secretary of health and human services was tom price he resigned over the jet in military aircraft scandals and he was taking them literally all over the place when like when nobody nobody like tom you can't be here this is not your plane you can't just walk up and take a middle way makes things easy oregon just like this one in some do the military by gender pilot like how do i know i'm still confused i know that and then also he was taking these went to places that were like you could charter commercial commercial plane you could take like why are you taking a plane there's like amtrak goes right into your account right hello so tom price he's out he's resigned my mind scandal and now we have alex's are formerly united states deputy secretary of health and human services under george w bush so also tied in that sense but he is also be a former president of usa division of eli lilly the gigantic pharmaceutical company 'em end a member of the board of directors of a biotechnology innovation organization which is eight pharmaceutical lobby so how is working with a pharmaceutical company which is keeping prices up and people dying okay we love like i knew nothing i love it the secretary of housing and urban development is some people said that they say about benicia he he touched the ground like he's not only grounded in this earth but he is still he's been the secretary of the housing developments since the beginning he has recently in a hearing where somebody who's explaining to him how his department works and he's like no that and i'm just i feel like i feel like he's somebody who gets lost in the mall you know have you lost him so bizarre such an odd man very sleepy and but he's been very this whole time and yet that's all i can say about sleepy ben carson that's all you need today secretary of transportation is elaine chao she was previously a secretary of labor under george w bush for eight years here's two thousand one two thousand nine in october twenty eighteen politico analysis found that chow found that she had a more than two hundred ninety hours of appointments which were labeled as private during work hours on working days for her first fourteen months which is a quivalent to like seven weeks of vacation they asked politico bless them and they're journalists asked other department of transportation officials but they thought about that and they were like that's all well look i also have private time on my day the it's when i when i wake up in the morning and i put on forensic files it's me yeah that lane elaine elaine but also another one of the members who was approved very yeah she's spend a little time yeah but in the senate shoes per approval ratings were highly shoes a huge majority approved tougher including democrats secretary of energy a bad boy rick perry like can't believe he's still he's still still here and god bless you still have found the right frame for his faith that we've got is the only thing he has done a secretary of energy is find the right frame for his face yet another he's still there then there from day one does make any sense not a fan but gray glasses glasses somebody else who's been there the whole time much to my dismay secretary of education betsy devo steve off that those you know are you hater that say he's the bond in the jackets she's determined to keep students in debt and people with disabilities even more disenfranchise it's great okay these the secretary of the veteran affairs we've had guys one two three four five so buckle in first it was robert schneider who is in acting secretary from twenty seventeen twenty seventeen to february johnny's i'm so sorry for one month living on unapproved one david schulkin joking shirts from february twenty seventeen to march twenty eighteen we got robert wilkie who acting from march twenty eighteen may twenty eighteen that we got peter or acting from may twenty eighteen july so sorry it's so two months like the first robert wilkie with every month and the beautiful workers over two months and then finally robert wilkie came back to us an way was approved on july thirtieth twenty eighteen and it's been there since yet which i love this guy who comes in for two months and i'm just like where do you know if you do nothing nothing it's so weird lots of private lots of pride yeah so it is a difficult one to get settled down that is by people that is straight up five people in comparison if people are curious to brock rock obama 'cause i haven't pulled up here there were three people the first gentleman lasted from january twentieth two thousand nine to two thousand fourteen up and then there wasn't acting and then the next one july thirtieth twenty fourteen to january january twentieth twenty seventeen this is unusual what's happening in this cabinet yeah you shouldn't have five people over the course of three years in one position right it's also telling that like all of trump's cabinet appointees he had he put they weren't prepared and they know what they were doing so they put in acting people until they could get their people through but that meant that act you know he's acting cabinet officers were like anywhere from a couple of weeks like months on end yeah and if you go back and he looks like prior administrations that's not how it was all you know but had he he had four but like he had his cabinet official has approved on january twenty third two thousand one which is like how many days after he took office and like that like what is happening with the trump administration and his cabinet position is highly unusual yeah brock obama's this person was approved january twentieth like dude you just you like that day right rat day now that literally he he votes came in and then it was like and here all the cabinet members like they're just like here's are people yeah happy to meet you have like weird they had they were so the very ill prepared very unusual but that's the the vip's office that's the last one department of homeland security yeah we now know so trump has had this is the newest the news department has had for so we start it off with john kelly oh yeah yeah john carolina oh john john john john okay he was one of them who got approved like right away people know john kelly john john right now on it i'm on it and then we had a lane duke for about six months as acting secretary kirsten nielsen oh do you remember her yup family separation at the border yes she is i wonder what she's gonna do next felipe crossing their fingers will see now we have acting secretary kevin mic lee mc mc mc sally the galley mexico an honor it doesn't matter but he's and acting secretary of department of homeland security for comparison looks like a bronco bama he had a janet napolitano randy beers and jay johnson he had three for his entire eight years in office trump has had for for his two and a half years and again not to be part of george w bush had three over eight years as opposed to for over three years which meant like having three makes sense if you're a two term president early you have and then i and then i and then another because like eight years of being you know a secretary would i mean brock obama barely made it through guys that's are president's avenue up there were at right now so we will see you guys again in three months when all of these have changed its we just gotta keep up with we gotta keep checking in its again so unusual what is happening and it's not like were not just comparing it to brock obama but it's unusual in comparison to george bush it's unusual comparison to george hw bush like this is not it's not a republican democrat thing now it is donald trump saying his cabinet positions are like the the the overturn what's it called not overturn 'em turnover turnover over and over that switch on the turnover he's insane first down almost every position i mean we only have one two three four five six seven people from the beginning out of how many positions just right there were at what ben carson he gets he's not in the mix he's and it's been two and a half year two and a half years it's unusual it's super weird though just wanna give that information but will will see in the next mondo when they find out we love you six six mm oh i'm and i'm rags and we play roller derby together yeah we do but we also host this kickoffs podcast called rockpile podcast so found out is a podcast that focuses on those really uncomfortable comfortable conversation like racism and sexism in mental health and physical health in basically anything that is gonna become a really interesting conversation and even the kind of like this is you're out all
Highway Hi-Fi: Desert Island Recordings - The Trinity Session by The Cowboy Junkies
"In welcome to the highway. Hi Fi podcast where we go track by track through the underbelly of music history using research and Trivia to locate the roots of our obsession with vinny records on. Kgo Am Rhein congratulations. You found the Internet's finest podcast for music was recorded by a man who puts his records in the fridge in the freezer. Either way so. We are continuing our series of albums made in isolation of some sort called the desert island recordings. But we're going to start with a little bit of Trivia and I know we normally don't or at least we haven't yet done any trivia on the shorter episodes but I was so happy with riots Trivia from our last show that I I wanted him to do some more and and so we are going to do just a very abbreviated version of trivia new. Remember what that Trivia was called. I don't remember what the Trivia was called called supergroup therapy super group therapy. Thank you for those of you. Who are Listening Bobby? We didn't listen to last episode. Here's how this trivia goes I'm going. Well we are going to re we're GONNA go back and forth. We're going to read the names of some musicians who are in pretty famous bands and we have to go ahead and surmised the name of their supergroup based on the names the bands that these musicians are in. It will never be more than two total bands that we're naming. We're not going to go crazy. Which of Chicago I? I'll go first all right. Here's my first supergroup butch. Hancock Jimmy Gilmour and Dylan Car Carlson Dylan Carlson name It's GonNa be hard then. Something flat is in a band called Earth Society Not Earth Society Flat Earth. Yes the flatter thor's house earth. Okay okay I don't. I don't know any of their names. I liked the songs I don't know their names. He's the Guy I'm pretty sure he's. He's the man. Oh okay good job you got anyways good job all right my first one is Chris Hillman. Gram Parsons Diana Ross per supremes. It is brewed a supreme. Very good good all right here. We Go Billy Bragg Steve Mariot and Peter Frampton. So billy wasn't in a band so. I'm assuming that some part of this new supergroup is going to be part of his name. Is that right? That's a fair assumption. Okay is it. Humble Brag is Humble Brag. Very good our my next one is John DOE Vinca Jon Langford and Sally Timms. Okay see have X. in the me cons or potentially niggers Macon's Mikan sex may comes niggers X. Macon's senators me contracts. I don't know I can't ask stumped ex-cons that's pretty good. It likes that one all right Howard Devoto Barry Adamson Warren Ellis and Mick Turner. Let's see so bad seeds dirty three or crime in the city. Solution is at the other or magazine. Sorry Magazine and magazine dirty three dirty magazine Dirty magazine. Good job excellent. All right my final one the one. I am most proud of David Berman. Robert Schneider John Hill. So David Berman was silver Jews Roberts. Snyder was apples in stereo. Their silver apples could be purple mountains. Purple Apples silver apples isn't another band name. It is. I'm not that's not the right answer. Okay Silver Jews and Stereo. So we're ju- apples apple choose. Held us that. It's best whatever all right. Let's move on to our subject for today. Rimmer AT is talking. I don't hear where the search only faced with the prospect of an untimely death twenty five year old. Mary Lambert Swail Droop. An unusually specific last will and testament the daughter of a wealthy English family swail anonymously bequeath to the Anglican Church of Toronto Five Thousand Sterling an astronomical sum in eighteen forty five to erect a new church. The gift came with stipulations however the building must be constructed in the gothic style with a crucify him structure. The congregation must be named Church of the Holy Trinity and most importantly that all people be welcome in the Church and that its pews. Be Free and unappropriated forever. This last request was a radical one as a common practice among Anglican Churches of the time was charging pugh reservations as a way to allow the more affluent to worship undisturbed. By the pathetic prayer riffraff the Church of the Holy Trinity was dedicated in October. Eighteen forty seven and its doors have ever more been open to all it is fitting that this deference to the past insistence on beauty and the requirement for openness would be built into a church that one hundred forty years later would play host to a recording session that would make the environment a critical aspect of music. The Cowboy Junkies would hole up in the Trinity Church in quietly play their haunting shoe gaze. Americana into a single microphone nestled in the midst of the five story Cathedral. The Hush beauty that was committed to tape in that sacred place on the Trinity Session is commentary against the increasingly digital and frantic world surrounding them it's maybe a little hard to believe but the cowboy junkies started as a post punk band called the hunger project. A far cry from the smoky sounds to come. The hunger project was formed by Michael Tim. Allen Anton with vocalist ELISA DAWSON WHISKER. Who moved from their native? Toronto to New York City. The ban later moved to London toward some and released a single to minor acclaim do Blah After a year spent working in a record store and being introduced jazz and early blues the Band morphed into a more improvisational outfit called Germinal which released two very limited. Lp's again the band created some buzz but nothing really came of the album's germinal broke up with Timmons and Anton packing up their tooks. And returning to the Great White North Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo back in Toronto. They contemplated a new direction renting a house on five. Forty seven Crawford Street in the city's Portuguese neighborhood and insulating the garage. Tim Johnson Anton started playing around with new songs and recruited. Michael's brother Peter to sit in on drums. Michael was pleased with the sound. The trio was producing but felt that it needed a distinct female vocalist to pull it together. Eventually the timmins brothers talk to their sister. Margot into singing some songs for them. Despite an apprehension for being on stage she decided to ignore being accepted into Grad school and instead focus on the band the subdued arrangements in whispered singing that became their hallmark. Has its origins in their poorly soundproof. Garage located right next to their neighbors home. If the band got to raucous the police would show up. This happened at their very first practice. Michael modified their sound and focused on reeve-irvine space rather than volume while Peter use brushes rather than sticks and Margo found that her voice was far more effective when using muted tones. After some time practising they played out having settled on the name Cowboy Junkies for no other reason that sounded cool at their first show a mutual friend and self taught audio engineer. Peter more watched as the band was completely drowned out and the crowded bar. They played slow and quiet with the lead singer turned away from the audience or having her head tucked under her arm like a vampire sneeze he loved it and immediately started concocting ideas more had a long history of creating inspired recordings he worked as a Dj for the College Radio Station of University of Western Ontario where he would go out and tape punk bands with a cons- Cov dummy head. Microphone that allowed for by neural. Sound as we talked about with Morris on a recent episode of his podcast loved that album. Lou Reed used this technique for the recording of his seminal. Tweaker insult comedy album. Take no prisoners because it truly gives the feeling of being right there at the show. Three hundred sixty degrees of sound more started a punk label called silent head where he spent way more time. Fiddling with sound setups microphone arrangements and inscrutable rigging systems than probably any other engineer in the history of punk based on his talent and skill he was much sought after an started working on producing jazz and classical music as well as television soundtracks. Peter Moore had recently taken out a bank loan for a high ankle wreck embassy. Sonic microphone for thousand dollars. It's loonies eight. He ended up recording the cowboy junkies first album at their rented house with the band in the garage while he was in a makeshift control room in their kitchen. A mattress was used to dampen the volume of the drums. The resulting record mostly blues rock covers was called whites off earth. Now here's a rendition of springsteen state trooper which we covered in another desert island recording about Nebraska stone stuff. They shop their debut record around the ended up self releasing on their own label late records. Even the sales were modest and it was an import only to the US. The band garnered enough attention to warrant small tour of the states. The band found that they were particularly well received in the southern states. Barely making enough money to fill up the gas tank. They had to rely on the kindness to strangers for meals and find floors to sleep on. Despite this they love the time spent listening to Classic Country Radio. Late night drives between gigs were illuminated with the sounds of Hank Williams and Patsy. Kline the speed of life in the south and the open. Lonesome music became a huge part of the development for their next album. The band was recoiling from the modern digital world and the vacuous music that reflected the Times simultaneously but separately more was also experiencing this desire for simpler more human forward music away from the MIDI dominated. Eighties fair he had a musical epiphany after listening to dire straits brothers in arms in Nineteen fifty-six Billie holiday record back to back. He stated that I was angry that the music had gotten into drum machines and Midi no humanity. No nothing. I'm listening to these recordings from the fifties with two or three Mike and I'm going man. That's real music. The group's purposeful choice to step backward was long in the making. Peter Moore had recorded jazz and orchestral music in churches before and suggested that the band think about this tactic he even specifically named the Trinity Church because the pews were movable and the acoustics perfect with the wood floor course stonework and it's tall ceiling with the big oak rafters. Not a fancy church but it was stayed and solemn despite the church being fairly progressive more was concerned that they might not be thrilled about having a rock and roll outfit called the Cowboy Junkies record on sacred ground so he bore a bit of a false witness and told the church that the session was for the timmins family singers who were recording a Christmas special for the Canadian Broadcast Corporation. The church was amenable to the wholesome. Von Trapp like ensemble and greet the cost for renting. The church was a hundred bucks more said. The total costs were recording. Was One hundred twenty-five when you've factored in the back. Bacon for the band and a bribe to the church caretaker to let them stay late and finish up. Though some stories have the total cost closer to two fifty. The band was still worn out and broke from the tour so the church fit perfectly in their shoe string budget early in the morning on November twenty seventh nineteen eighty seven more than the ban hauled their equipment into the church. They only had a few hours. Before collection of invited guests would arrive to start recording to obtain the correct dynamics. They placed the microphone in the middle of the room. It started a trial and error process of precise locations of the instruments amps. They started with the snare drum and worked out from their margot saying into APA system that was left at the church but stood about thirty feet to the side. The only musician not in the immediate circle orbiting the single Mike more fashion himself Control booth in cloakroom off to the side of the Church for six hours. They would test and adjust placement relative to the microphone. More used a technique. He developed earlier with spacing. Everything in a cloverleaf pattern to properly crest rich. Livestock Sounding Stereo sound with instruments. On top of each other. The ban also had to deal with to risk coming in to check out the Church and burst of Radio Frequency from the nearby CNN tower. They persevered and around two thirty in the afternoon. The guest musicians arrived with harmonicas. Mandolins Accordions Dobro fiddles pedal steels and the recording began in earnest with everything in place after a couple run throughs. The band recorded straight through until about midnight. Everyone recognized that what they were making was beautiful but no one quite knew what it would sound like base was Languid but glistening guitar would quietly drone in the background of the songs until it rang out like a Santo and Johnny Lullaby. Margot singing was so patiently drawn out. They created a sense of tense anticipation in the listener who was hanging onto each prolonged syllable. The brushed drums softly swished along as only nudging reminder for the band to continue on toward an end. The sound that emanated was a slow burn of quiet textures. The other instruments would ease handed out to add depth color and character. The church became the most integral instrument of all with. It's warm dynamic acoustics supplied by the creaking wood beams and the furnace The sparse but painstakingly executed production was perfect to obtain an atmosphere that was a theory immersive and eternal fitting right in was the reworking of classic roots songs folk country and the dream ear moments of early rock and roll. It was traditional comforting music walking home by itself on a Sunday morning after a Saturday. Night of escapades. Despite the legend that the entire album was recorded in a single night there was an additional session. Margot and more return to the church on a lunch break a few days after the first session to record an acappella version of Canadian folk singer. James Gordon's working of the traditional mining for gold behind her honeycomb singing you can hear the presence of the church maybe better than any other song on the record. Oddly enough mining was in the timbers bloodline as their great grandfather Noah timmins was Ontario mining magnet on the line. Bull on the line drill your holes instead and love to shoot comes to town you musters owner can choose to the student loans. It'll Kurt and he is. The whole session was recorded. Directly to Betamax tape which means there is no mixing no over dubbing and no editing a fact that was bragged about on the sleeve of the record Moore. Who if you haven't guessed by now is a bit of an eccentric also talked in an interview about mastering the record using FA FAA? Of course being fuck all so no. Mastering either doesn't really seem necessary. But whatever port part interviewer. What does the theory is that? Fine Arrangement Trinity session was about as close to a live recording as a studio album. Could get speaking of the eccentricity of more. We found an article where he's talking about his fondness for vinyl. He states what I like about. Vinyl is that it's a unique performance. That needle is dancing in the groove and is putting on a performance for the listener every time a record is played and it will never be played the same way twice because it's a mechanical device so the vinyl changes after it played a heats up. If you play it again right away it will not sound as good. So the great part of the interview and we need to add a little disclaimer. The Legal Department of how a half does not sanction this method but more goes on to say. I don't like to give away my secrets but I will stepping back. He totally gives secrets away. All the time. Don't tell him anything he just talks talks will. There's so much information about him talking. So he's a beans biller. He sounds like a genius. But I don't believe he'll keep your secret Margot's heaven and a ferry more goes on to say I don't like to give away any of my secrets but I will. After I play a record. I put it in the freezer for an hour. After are taken out played again. It will sound as close to the same as before otherwise you have to wait a day or so so you heard it here. First on highway half. I make sure you freeze those records. It's a really good idea. Well here's my thing. If he play at once and change it. Why would it make any difference between do? Freezing are waiting a day and if you have to freeze it for an hour and then play it again. Mike? If you really WANNA listen to record twice do you WANNA listen to wait an hour and listen to it again. That he's crazy doesn't that also contradict his earlier statement about every time you play a record. It's slightly different. You want it to be slightly different. It's a unique experience each time. Maybe he stated worse every time you this new record it's getting worse l. It's degrading okay. But not if you freeze them okay. Back to the junkies one of the things about the nature of the recording that the band essentially had a copy of the completely finished album. Manca said a few days after the recording. The Tim's brought a tape home to play for their mom. Their mom told the kids. Very certainly that. You know your life is never going to be. The same mom was right. Trinity session was originally released on the band's own label Layton records in nineteen eighty eight a young entertainment lawyer and fan of the band. Graham Henderson asked for twenty copies of the tape to work on getting a distribution deal while worked pretty well as several major labels beckoned however most of them wanted the album redone in a studio proper finally. Rca picked up the album agreeing to leave it untouched and released it. Worldwide Henderson also eventually married. Margo timmins sweet. Jane became a sleeper hit and sure. Enough Trinity Session. An album recorded for a couple of hundred bucks. Sold one point. Five million copies and charted all over the world in a world of guns and roses. George Michael an INEX- S A quiet record of old country songs by an introverted group of Canadian. Siblings is quite a feat. The McKenzie Brothers did it too. They also used a single Mike. Just some guy laying on the floor a Mike you married. The band tried to capture lightning in a bottle by trying a third attempt single Mike Album. The Sharon temple sessions was recorded between tours in April of nineteen eighty nine at a freezing and spooky worship center in North Toronto. It didn't work out but laid the bones for a follow up studio recording nineteen ninety s the caution horses also about this time they were able to get townes van. Zandt one of the band's favourite musicians to open for them on a tour the juxtaposition of having one of their musical influences and the most poignant songwriter ever supporting them was credence to the power of the Trinity Session. We need to circle back to the songs of the twelve songs. There are seven covers and five originals however the arrangement of the covers and the songwriting of the originals blend perfectly in the recording as if the whole album the songs of Michael Timmins in the songs of his Heroes Melt together into one long darkly ravishing folk trip. The cowboy junkies rework a few covers into this album as they do in many of their albums throughout their career. A lot of bands do this but only a few are able to inhabit a song as if it were their own when also already belongs to someone else cover songs are easy and usually very uninspired. They are simply ways to complete album. That didn't start off with enough material promote bands. That is it's not that the cowboy junkies are reinterpreting the songs or merely back the original but instead they're articulating how those songs sound and feel to them. In addition to that they found a common ground in those songs that wasn't apparent before they played them. The most well known song from this album is their cover of sweet. Jane is a bold move as the original is the single best rock song of all time to never have a definitive version. The loaded version is very different from the live. Nineteen sixty nine version and both are different from the original unedited version. That Lou Reed wanted to release initially yet. Each is nearly perfect. The Cowboy Junkies took that song and may have finally created that elusive definitive version. It most resembles live nineteen sixty nine. But it's no longer that at all. It's it's now the cowboy junkies that feet alone would seem to be enough but then they did something very similar with Blue Moon and they married those two songs along with every other song on this album. What they focused on in each of these songs was desolation and heartache and they convey those feelings with pinpoint clarity h So going back to sweet Jane. There's a clip of Margot saying that one of the highlights of her career and one of the biggest things that happened was that she actually got to meet Lou Reed. Who is you know her? And her brothers like favor musician or one of them and I guess read the song to he said it was like the best and most authentic version. He'd ever heard I don't know if it was talking about all cover versions are just sweet Jane but he he is really in support of it. He doesn't normally say things like that about anybody might be the nicest thing he's ever said. I remember when I o freshman or sophomore in high school and I got like a best of velvet underground CD as the first thing I had and it had the edited version of Jane and so that was the version and new and I was riding around with my dad who had a copy of trinity session and Sweet Jane. Their version was on. And I remember telling. My Dad like the re doesn't do this. This is the whole heavenly wine and roses and the law on you know because I I really had no idea that was actually part of the song at that point and he said I know. Isn't it great and so I remember eventually come back until my dad like well. Actually Louis did write. That but still didn't take away from what they did with that song. I don't think anything could right. I think the first thing I heard by the devil underground was nineteen sixty nine so that was the version. I knew I really the yeah. Wow misguided angel is probably the most iconic Tim and song from the session recorded in a single take at the very end of the night with the extra time bought from the security guard bribery. A sort of good girl meets a bad boy. A sped up version of the song could fit in on. I WANNA Jackson record. But as it is the dichotomy of young lust and religious imagery create a seductive sinful tale. It's also perfect. Example of the connection that existed between Michael. Songwriting for Margot singing. So I think sometimes. That's hard when when the songwriter is not the singer. But that was not a problem for them they must add that you know fraternal connection or whatever. Yeah they clearly had a bond that allowed for for them to know each other very well and to feel very open with each other otherwise none of that could have happened the way she sings the way he writes plays and the other guy in the family to sure all three of them. Peter and I think one of the guests they brought was their older brother to who played guitar too. So I think there's actually four timmons siblings on Trinity Session. That's pretty great dreaming. My dreams with you is an often covered song. First coming to prominence on the essential waylon jennings record in one thousand nine hundred seventy nine. A parade of artists have tried to make it their own including Colleen Hewett Alison Crowds Cowboy Jack Clement. Emmylou Harris Crystal Gayle Marianne Faithfull John Prien and jewel realizing it as the perfect barroom. Slow dance tune. The cowboy junkies is perhaps the most incisive and conclusive adaptation To See Sonic Travelogue. That was a reflection of their tour of the South. Two hundred miles of the sound of being on the road. The lyrics embody a person understanding the meaningless of time on the road but also embracing lifestyle Mazloum. This she the Boozy Cover Patsy. Kline walking after midnight would have fit right in. Playing at one eyed. Jack's on twin peaks with sherline then swaying against the jukebox sexy and hypnotize ing. And just the right amount of evil. The harmonica cuts through the song. Like a fork through Cherry Pie while the accordion gives the song a bit of Levity to avoid spiraling completely down a black hole. It closes the album not with a bang now with a whimper but with a whisper. Awesome some damn fine coffee like so many bands that find such sudden success with a totally innovative idea. The cowboy junkies often seem trapped by the record. That's not to say they weren't able to keep producing amazing music and become a successful band but they are still beholden to a church in a single day in November our reflection by one of the band members after the millionth interview referring back to the album. Was that everybody only gets one story. Trinity was the story of the band for their part. Junkie seemed to embrace it even recording at Trinity Session revisited. Twenty years later in the same church with Ryan Adams Natalie merchant in vic chestnut the deliciousness of the irony that the album that was made in total installation from the trends of the music industry ended up propelling the artist to the biggest stage imaginable. Pretty solid album. I think because the sound is such an important part of it and the church plays into as an instrument. It plays one long song to me. It's kind of an warsh sound. That reminds me a lot of Charles. Magazines Black Saint and the sinner lady and laying them back to back works really well and I think as we talk about like records made in isolation it's not as as like say Nebraska Jan Dick but I think it was isolated from the times around it and the fact that the band recorded in a place that was so far removed from the music industry and recorded in a way that was so far removed from what was recording. Kind of makes it fit into this. This idea of being on your own trying something new and I think that sound really resonates to people listening because you remember nineteen eighty eight. I mean we're still a couple years away from uncle Tupelo. I mean country. Music is not a popular thing with the college rock crowd. This was a very different album when it came out and it was. We mentioned earlier. That or we describe it as eternal at some point and it is an album that will never sound old It will just always sound right and it's funny because the timmins all of them seem really grounded and sweet and Nice and very calm. And then you've got Peter Moore who is he's a total character you know. He's a total like you know took a hundred dollars in some pizza. Bribe money and I made this great album. But he's a total tech guy but I mean I think he deserves a lot of credit. I mean I really think. He was very innovative in his sound and he also just talks so much about it. Really helps really helps us for researching blabbermouth. We'll talk talk and talk. Yeah yeah he might as well be a member of the band because if he hadn't had them record in that church that'd be a very different album and who knows what might have happened with it and this is another case of the circumstances surrounding the album helping it. I. I don't think you can take away from the actual presence of the where they recorded in the music. But I also think it's one of those things where like it's a cool story because this band took one day and they recorded in church in this. Is there one session and they had one chance to get it right type thing? You know sound so much like a live record so intimate but there's no doubt that calling the Trinity Session and people knowing about the story kind of helped with sales. I'm sure a little bit. And the interview Margot was talking about Lou Reed and meeting Lou Reed and I think she even talked about her relationship with album that they've kind of come to place her she's a peace with it. You know it's Bader House it's about cars. I mean there's no denying that that was the biggest point in their career. The other kind of crazy thing that we kind of talked about this I found in one interview where basically they were huge fans of towns aunt and so they were in Atlanta or somewhere and he was playing so they went. They went to go see him at the show and then after they were talking to him and they're just kind of like. Hey do you wanna come open for us? This is I can early ninety. S or nineteen nineties. Yeah sure and he just kind of hopped on their tour. Bus followed him around open for them for a while. He is such kind of Troubadour from what they say. He's he's not in great shape at that point with his drinking and para wind and whatever else but very sad story. Yeah BUT MARGO SAYS. She has nothing but fond memories. She says she knew knew. He had bad nights but he'd always kind of keep to himself when he was like that. You know when he was around other people he would try to keep it together much possible. It would have to be amazing to see him perform every night. How humbling to have him open for you. I wish Peter More had been more around for that so we'd have some good stories because he's a blabbermouth. Oh man we can only imagine so one last question for you. Joe Misguided Angel in Drunken Angel get into a fight wins drunken angel wins. And I'm only really basing that off of Lucinda Williams. Having the ability to beat the crap out of the entire family she was just find the weakest. Timmons take him out the rest of the tencent at flea she might go after the strongest one. I and the rest of them scurry away after she rips head off. Okay all right. Would you like to play a couple of songs now? I would the first of two songs that will be played for. This episode is going to be by the band. Luna and the song is called Sweet Child of mine reminds me. A sky takes away special. Cry Long Odd Off. Why Don That was sweet child of mine by Luneau and that was released in Nineteen Ninety Nine on beggars banquet. That's the version that I have on vinyl. It's white vinyl and as you probably just heard white vinyl doesn't necessarily always sound very good. And that's something we learn from cash Kendra core. It's the only version on vinyl. I think it's the only one I've seen is the one for you know for that. Album doesn't sound as good as it could. So Luna around nine thousand nine hundred or so. They were touring. This was before the game out ninety nine. They were in a place in Cologne and no one. There had any interest in seeing them. Just didn't care they were. It was not going to be a good show. Dean Wareham decided to close out the set with that song just to kind of play it. He really likes that song. He does not like guns and roses. I just read his autobiography or memoir. And he talks about guns N. Roses and that song specifically he compares it with Wonderwall by Oasis saying that there are two bands that are absolutely terrible but the each wrote one great song these a little rougher on them than than I was just there. They recorded the song during the days of our nights sessions. That'S THE ALBUM. It was on but hadn't planned on including it. On the record. In fact the lead guitars was absolutely opposed to it because he hated guns and roses but Luna's anr person from electric. Herd's Nancy Jeffries. I think talked them into adding it to the record because she was. She thought that the vocals on that album or the best. The Dean Wareham has ever sounded according to her. How Electra said. It wasn't going to get any airplay any radio play. Which is what they want. They tried to have someone come in and remix it and add some things to it but that really didn't work it was. It was a complete song as it was but instead of releasing it as a single they dropped Luna. That was their last record. And the record itself wasn't released for another six months so just sat there for a while and in that time between them being dropped from Elektra and getting onto beggars banquet and having it released. Sheryl Crow had a hit with her version of sweet child of mine well. I don't know if that's apples. Apples to apples at Dean. Wareham says that he sort of jokes that that could have been us and then he said I'd still rather be me than her. Yes yeah that's pretty good. I prefer the Galaxy five hundred version of Paradise City. Yeah all right and my song is girl from the north country by Mr Link Wray In the country followed eighteen years. Don't so he as long as we see better Long Island? Rian no inch eighteen that was linked rate with girl from the North country. A cover of the Bob Dylan Song and that was released. Originally delinquent version was released in nineteen sixty five on the label. Swan a forty five Like a Promo only type forty five. You know in this episode. We talk about a lot about making covers your own. I think link wray did something pretty incredible here and I've always been floored by how great this song is as a rock song. Has this amazing ballad. That I've always heard was about his girlfriend suzy at the time he was like looking looking for in Europe. But you know just two years later. Lincoln comes out with the song kind of commands a little bit of Chuck Berry and his very distinctive singing style. Which nobody sounds like link wray? He just sings Audley. I mean it's great but it's odd and I think this song is really a precursor for his solo record Which is one of the greatest records of all times but that sound is sort of established here. I have on a swan singles collection. That Sunday's put out in two thousand four. Which is fantastic. But I really think he. He changed the song from what it was. And by giving it a little bit of this desperate rock and roll edge. It just changes the whole tone from this lovelorn this to this. You know more. Gritty heartbroken defiance. It's a beautiful song. I think my favorite version is the one with Johnny Cash Bob Dylan. But the link was awesome is almost different songs. You know they really are all right. Well I think that about does it. We want to go ahead. And thank Pantheon. Podcast The type podcast network and they give us a lot of support and help us out. Lots of great podcast. Please check them out. In fact we can tell you one to check out because we were on it. We were on a recent episode of love that album me. We'll talk about that you our friend. Moores who is the host of love that album podcast and the sea here? Podcast both of which are awesome and we are huge fans and have been for a long time. He asked a few people at Pantheon to be guests on his show to discuss their most favorite live album of all time. And we chose take-no-prisoners will put a link up to that so that if you want you can hear it. It was a lot of fun to record and I think if you want to know why that is the best live album of all time. Not just our favorite. It's the best. You should listen to that episode. We laid down the facts. It's been pure reviewed it science. It also will cure corona vipers. I've listened to it and I don't have it so at least as good as malaria drug. It hasn't specifically killed anybody that they know of. Many people have died from listening to take-no-prisoners but not recently I think. The autopsies have been inconclusive. We really appreciate him. Let us come on his show and talk about that. There's a lot of fun. People talk about cheap trick at Buddha Khan wings over America and Neil Young rest never sleeps or live rats a bunch of cool records so definitely worth checking out and we have social media we do. Please come find us on twitter and instagram. Our handle on those places is highway. Hi Fi pod. We have a facebook page. We'd love if you jumped in there and and said hello. Or how do you or whatever you want to do and you can email us anytime at highway. Hi Fi podcast at gmail.com and we've had a lot of people reaching out recently which is just awesome. Thank you so much to everybody. Who's emailed us or tweeted a left and instagram message. We really appreciate it. It's so cool to us that you're out there listening in that we're not just kinda talking to ourselves. It just means means the world to us the other people enjoy this and we and we. We do hope you enjoy it. We we loved him and it will do something like this. No matter what Whether there's a Mike in front of us or not and everybody who has reached out has been kind and decent and they sound like wonderful people. So that's really great. The other thing that's been awesome. A few people have given us some reviews on like apple or whatever I guess I really helps other people find us so if you have time and you're bored and you WANNA give us a great review We would be indebted really or tell friend who loves music pick one of the episodes. That's one of your favorites and share it. We appreciate you. That's all I'm trying to say. Also in this time we want to remind you to if you can if you have some some money that you could spend a lot of people are are suffering. A lot of people hurt and We really need to try to help. Record Stores Musicians record labels if you can Find find a way to spend some money on worthy independent Music makers or stores or whatever. That's really important right now. I know they're hurting and I'm worried that wants. This is all over. We may not have as many great record stores. So if you can throw a few bucks treat yourself era. We will see you next time ask. Hey we talked about a freezer and we didn't once mentioned Jeffrey. Dahmer Nope Nope.
How Did Placidus Become the Most Popular House System?
"Hi My name. Is Chris Brennan? And you're listening to the astrology podcast in this episode. I'm going to be talking with astrologer. Anthony Lewis about why the placid system of House division is the most popular or the default default system of house. Division in Western astrology today So he anthony. Thanks for joining me today. Most bigger thanks for inviting me. Yeah I'm excited to have you on a known you for several years now or could in many many years so I'm excited to have you on the show. Finally so you are the author of a few different books on astrology One of your first ones was one of the earliest books on. Horie astrology after the revival of horry astrology in early late nineteen ninety s and early. Nineteen Nineties Vivo. Also written on solar returns. And you've also done or helped with the translation of the seventeenth century author marinas. Read a book a dean of us. So so that's pretty wide and then you've also authored several books on Tarot. Yes okay so why why interests and the Genesis of this episode is actually an article that you wrote last year as well as a blog post. That's getting passed around recently From your website from November two thousand nineteen titled Wire Plazas Houses so popular. I thought it was such a good article which is a follow up another article. You wrote that. I wanted to have you on today to talk about that. So thanks for agreeing to do this mode pleasure to be here all right so let me Set the stage by introducing the topic and providing some context so the premise of the discussion is basically that in the late nineteenth or so in the late twentieth and early twenty first century so today and for the past few decades the placid system of House division is undisputedly the most popular system of House Division. And it's the default how system and most software programs like for example on Astra dot com or the Astra Deans website which is one of the main sites that people go to to get their birth chart calculated. I think that's relatively non-controversial statement right That placid us is like the default. How system at least in the English speaking world here. Okay do you think is it elsewhere or other other systems more prominent elsewhere in India. They're using the whole sides and some people blur and the quadrant cusps to those. That's a good point okay. So let's say for our purposes them were primarily talking about western modern Western astrology in the English. Speaking world primarily. I think South America a lot of south Americans use toper centric which is very close to the plastics. Okay got so anyway. So despite that despite or as a result of many software programs or websites like I think even solar fire using placid this as the default on this is the system of House Division that many people start their studies of astrology with and because People have a tendency to stick with whatever system they started with they tend to probably more often than not stick with placid us as their primary system of house division throughout their career. I think this is partially. Because our understanding of our lives become so intertwined with our birth chart that changing a house system can have major implications for how one sees their life as well as the lives of those around them So this is why. Would you say that's accurate? More or less that people tend to view their birth chart as a birth chart becomes a tool for how they perceive their life and sort of the meaning that they attribute to it. I think that's true. People who get seriously into astrology. The birth chart becomes a self portrait. And I also think as astrologist. We tend to do what our teachers taught us. Right perpetuate a tradition that way sure that makes sense so this is one of the reasons why the House division debate can get so tense at times because people become very personally invested Not just personally through their own birth chart but also professionally since of course whatever system of House Division. They use is the one that they also apply to client charts and some of their statements are predictions that they make about clients. Lives are also predicated on that choice. Whatever SYSTEM OF HOUSE DIVISION? They use right okay. So people can become very invested. One of the questions. That naturally comes up is then why is placid as the default quadrant house system in most software programs or most astrology websites dot com. Or what have you There's other system of systems of quadrant. House division calculate the cusps or the boundaries between the houses differently sometimes slightly differently and sometimes radically differently. So there's even alternative forms of house. Division like equal houses or whole sign houses that calculate the houses from radically different standpoint but even with quadrant houses. There's some sometimes very small and other times very large differences between how they calculate the cusps and so people have questions of you know. Y placid assert that method in particular has become so popular and this partially actually becomes a historical question. Which is what we're going to focus on. Today is sort of the historical angle of that. And that's what you tried to address partially in your articles partially based on Personally based on some quotes that I made but also connected to something that I was quoting to some extent from James Holden. So the setup for that was that Essentially or especially because so. Many astrologers don't understand the math behind the houses because especially in the past couple of decades a lot of astrologers are just calculating charts automatically through software programs rather than by hand most astrologers will use the default house system or at least the one that they started out with and yesterday wise plastic the default so James Holden in his book history horoscopic astrology makes he made this passing remark. I think his book was published in late. Nineteen ninety-six nineteen ninety seven seeing that placid. It's something defective placid as there's a perception that placid. Us had become the default in the twentieth century. Due to availability said quote is quote unquote has become a Cliche in the twentieth century. That placid us that. The plaza system later became the nineteenth and Twentieth Century Standard. Because it was the only one for which affordable tables were readily available and they says this is partially true but the same thing could also be said for the initial success of the Regio Montana's system so that's from page one of the first edition of his book. A history of horoscopic astrology and I of course quoted that or not quoted because I didn't make an exact quote which is one of the things you pointed out in your article but I Cited that statement from Holden a few times in different episodes of the astrology. Podcast in the past saying that the availability of placid as in tables of houses to the distributors could calculate relatively easy especially when they were still calculating charts by hand is one of the reasons why plastics became the default in modern times. And you take took issue with that in your article because he pointed out that historically plastics was popularized much earlier than the twentieth century for much. Different reasons. And so that's part of a large part of what we're going to talk about. Today's your critique of that statement or that angle on why placetas became the default. So is that accurate setup so far we on the same same page you. I think I've heard the statement over the years told mainly as a joke. Okay the joke being look at all these astrologers at least in the United States in England they're all using plazas and the only reason they're doing it is because it was the tables were available have no justification theoretical justification for doing it. And isn't that silly? That's the kind of joke and the joke goes way back. I think I think I've mentioned this to you before. We started talking that Not James Holden but Ralph old in the British author who wrote on houses he speculates that the reason placid as houses became is that the old Raphael who published an Almanac at the beginning of the nineteenth century. I think in the eighteen twenties chose to use. Placid is houses because they were easy to calculate the tables and because his L. ALMANAC was popular. Everybody started using placid us at again. That's partially true but it would it. Leaves out is that there was a theoretical reason why the British astrologer that period chose plastics over regio. Montana's which was predominant how system before that. Yes so so. That's part of the answer. The question is that the statement or the argument that placid s became the default especially in the twentieth century and especially with the advent of like software programs. The reason it became the default is because partially because it was true that earlier in the twentieth century and maybe even in the nineteen century that placid had become established already as the preferred system amongst a number of historic astrologers historically and therefore when tables were printed up like books of Planetary Tables. That would list how to calculate that the house costs when you're calculating chart by hand that those did tend to be the ones that were in wide circulation and therefore those are what astrologers tended to us because that was what was available and it it makes the process of calculating houses much quicker and much easier so astrologers are going to basically use what's available but there was part so that's part of their again partially true but then the other part that you're bringing up is that there is an earlier historical precedent for an intellectual shift away from some of the previous forms of quadrant house division and towards placid as a historical reason why everybody decided to adopt placid us at a certain point road. And I think there's also kind of a chicken and egg argument here in. I gave the analogy one of the papers that it'd be like saying the reason. Hamburgers are popular. The United States is that they're twenty thousand McDonald's franchises okay. Instead of saying the reason they're twenty thousand McDonnell's hamburger French is is because people like hamburgers Which came I got. I like that are at so severe. Basically your point was that while. It's true that plastic was the primary system. That tables were house of houses. Were available for the twentieth century. And that did help to popularize it to some extent The reason it was already popularized or went in that direction because it had been promoted widely since about the seventeenth century when the placid system originated so into the seventeenth century. Okay so the question. We're going to address here. Today is how did this get started? So why don't we start then right back? At the beginning of this system of house division at least with placid s and let's talk about placid this his publication and the subsequent acceptance of his work way back in the seventeenth century is so Maybe I didn't write this down. But who was placid as he was like a among Pleasantness was a monk from Peru. Italy believe a from a fairly prominent family. He was a very bright guy. He became a monk but also a professor of mathematics. Astronomy Astrology Again Respected University professor and his full name was what again he's knows classless. T to surtee. I don't know his full name. Sure I'm sure I'm just playing up on. What can I tell you? Look it up? That he republished his first major book under a pseudonym initially because it was somewhat controversial in terms of the church instead things that the pope and hierarchy wouldn't have liked. He was censured for it and eventually he was placed on the index of forbidden books. So the Catholics. Were not allowed to read his works right. That's a really big deal. So his first book and the one in which he originally outlined the House system was published in sixteen fifty rice. I think so okay so somewhere which is really interesting to me as a side note because that was right around the time of a Unionist Neptune conjunction which I've talked about before as as coinciding with important turning points in the history of astrology where there's a transmission of older forms of astrology in a revival of older forms that are synthesized with whatever the prevailing forms of astrology as at the time and originally. I really associated that conjunction with William Lilly who published Christian astrology just three years earlier I think in sixteen forty seven right in. The Reina's publishes works above a decade. Later Yeah and Ryan says the other guy but this is actually another super important one that I'd overlooked previously. That placid has published his works at the exact same time around that conjunction also had similar motivations that are tied it and even more clearly in terms of a synthesis of an attempted synthesis of ancient wisdom and modern up contemporary wisdom. So he He was among his time period. I just looked up his name his original name on just wikipedia. It's I guess. Placebo T T ended. The Latin Association is placid us. So we know him. As placid ass- he lived from sixteen three to sixteen sixty eight and he was a university at the University of Pavia From Sixteen fifty seven until he died about a decade later so he published that first book in Sixteen Fifty and there were other subsequent books but in terms of what his contribution was. He was focused especially on two issues in those publications and they were primarily directions which is timing technique but also house division and he seems to have been really focused and really interested in reconstructing ptolemies approach the second century astrologer Claudius Ptolemy. Who's the most famous and most influential astrologer or at least author of an astrology book of all time who published his? Tetra blows some time in the mid mid second century probably Egypt Alexandria so placid as seems like he was part of this general back to Ptolemy Movement where Ptolemy represented the oldest and most authoritative Greek taxed Greek astrological tax. That was available at that time. And this sort of back to ptolemy movement is something that's evident and other people of that era like William Lilly as well and They were really interested in going back. And trying to figure out what Ptolemy was trying to do and trying to emulate or reconstruct his text as best as they could and in particular placid Swiss focused on this chapter and Ptolemies work where he discusses the length of life treatment because that's where he introduced primary directions and that's also where he describes some form of House division except that what he says about house. Division in that chapter has been the subject of much controversy and much interpretation Because Basically Holden says James Holding Holden says at one point on page forty. Seven of a history of Skopje Astrology. That this one chapter has occasioned more astrological controversy than any of other ever written And this is about PTOLEMIES book. Three chapter eleven. We're told me talks about the issue of House. Division and primary directions so this is part of the thing was this general movement placid. This wasn't the only guy that was part of this. Like back to Ptolemy Movement right will in terms of ptolemy wasn't just astrology wrote on. He was recognized as a polymath genius. Who wrote books on almost all types of the natural sciences he did one on? Harmonic music theory. Optics MAPPING GEO geography coordinate systems and one specifically on astronomy. That was said the album. Adjust on astronomy separate from astrology in which he presented hole cosmology theories about orbits EPI cycles vicks stars observational astronomy measurements of the universe so he was regarded as this kind of universal natural scientists genius. Who had a wealth of knowledge and information and his books only gradually came into Europe. Several of them got translated. When the Arabs came into Spain than the Toledo School of Translators Got Together translated them into Latin or Spanish about Italian at the time. I think his book on geography was only discovered around fourteen hundred well after the Spanish Infiltration of the Arab soon to Spain and didn't get to Italy until the early fourteen hundreds and that was after the period in which Marco Polo had published his stories about journeys to China. So there was this fascination with the world with geography with mapping and the whole idea of coordinate systems. How do you measure things on earth and measure things on the celestial sphere and Kalemie worked in three dimensions? This election spear off. I think a problem. Modern strategists have sweet reduce everything to a two dimensional chart. And we're missing. The the earlier conceptualization with strategy was taught it was taught with the three dimensional globe or celestial sphere. Really had to look at how but the planets were doing in three dimensions. Not on a piece of paper. And so for this reason ptolemy was revered as a real expert who had a lot of knowledged teach us and some of his works were being uncovered and read and translated for the first time so it was new knowledge. Much like the current movement with project. Hindsight where we're translating these texts realizing the so much we didn't know that seems novel and we have to write out what it means for sometimes like reinterpretations of older authors. That are being looked at a new light. That's then leading to like new discoveries or new approaches but discovering ptolemy was really would be like if a thousand years ago we had lost Einstein and then suddenly they rediscovered his papers on relativity. That's a great analogy. Those analogy is about to make is that ptolemy was basically like the Einstein of his day and it was like if Einstein was a polymath. Who wrote on who did like a unified field theory and also wrote? On several different eras areas like tolerated. Like you said harmonic geography astronomy astrology. And he wrote what was like the most authoritative work on astronomy for over a thousand years. So that that established him not just as a major paradigm creating astronomer but as a result of the work done in astronomy that cascaded over into an made his other works Including his astrological work be viewed as very authoritative as well so that it was continually passed on and transmitted over the next two thousand years. Roy Those who've ptolemy was Einstein than I assume this was his Stephen Hawking okay so lady ideas. Feinstein modified them gave them a new twist and advanced them and popularized by Bragg Lincoln a brief history of time was Hawking's book. So that's a really good analogy. I like that. So so placid S.'s. Like the Stephen Hawking to ptolemies Einstein So going back to that. Then so ptolemy is viewed as like this huge authoritative guy from as early in the Greek tradition as they had. They didn't have other taxed at that point in the renaissance from earlier. Greek authors necessarily like videos Valenzuela Dorothea. Something like that. But they did have ptolemy and the issue with Ptolemy is that he deals with primary directions and Introduces House. Division in the context of this chapter on the length of life. But it's a notoriously difficult chapter to read in Greek that Ptolemy whenever I've talked to other Greek translators like Robert Schneider James Holden. They always say. Oh Yeah PTOLEMIES. Greek is super advanced and super Subtle and very difficult and he has a lot of like run on sentences that just go on for lines and lines and you have to break it up into separate sing sentences in English but grammatically in the Greek it just keeps going forever So He's a very difficult author to read like kind of reading a really advanced like scientific paper in modern English. Let's say that's using a ton of technical jargon and also taking a lot of concepts for granted without necessarily introducing all of them That's kind of what Ptolemy was doing to some extent go so He deals with it in book. Three chapter eleven on the length of life and immediately after the Tetra blows was published within a century to because of his astronomical contributions his astrological book also draws a lot of attention and starts getting very prominent very quickly but even in the later Greek tradition within a century or two after Ptolemy. There were different authors. Who would get to this chapter of Ptolemies Book Book? Three chapter eleven where he starts talking about House Division and they started coming to different interpretations about what he meant and what form of House Division. He was talking about In that chapter or trying to outlaw and and basically what happened is that for the next thousand years actually for the next fifteen hundred years after ptolemy a lot of the different or several forms of House division actually came from attempting to interpret the system of House Division. That told me was trying to describe in this chapter and that applies to at least at the very least to Reggio Montana's and two plazas were interpretations of what Ptolemy was trying to describe in that in that chapter basically right and I think you mentioned this already but then some important to repeat that a lot of astrologers believe that you had to use the same type of primary direction technique as you did to construct the houses and in fact they can be independent separate but there was a belief that they had the be. The same method used the same circles of physician are same types of measurements of movements of planets or measurements of how much time had elapsed by measuring the distance along the equator. And and so. I think that's how Reggie Montana's came up with his system and reading the same paragraph or actually sentence in Ptolemy places came up with a different method of both primary direction and host division right. So there's this great paper James Holden the famous historian of astrology. Who passed away just a few years ago wrote two papers on House Division and he wrote the first one in the nineteen eighties and then at some point he published a second paper titled Engine House Division to and I don't have the full scan of the original but he sent me a word document of this paper at some points. I can't quit the page numbers but just if I can find that article and skin when we released this episode. I think I will so just to give a quote about Reggio Montana's he says regio Montana's claimed that his method was what Ptolemy had in mind when he wrote Tetra Blows Three ten which is actually chapter three eleven and latest the modern critical editions. That's the same thing the length of life chapter basically so he continues. He says Holden says this is certainly false but rather Montana's arguments were accepted by the majority of astrologers He goes on. He says his house tables accompanied by auxiliary tables for Calculating Primary Directions. Were very likely the first extensive set of mathematical tables of any kind ever printed appearing as they did scarcely four decades after the invention of printing. So he's talking about the late Fifteenth Century here and the finally says three things combined to make them Reggio Montana's system is success. I it provided a convenient printed set of house tables second. It was modern and scientific and third at substituted a system with alleged classical Greek sanction for system supposed to have been invented by medieval Arabic author But these arguments would have been equally applicable to the components plaza as it's fair to say that the success of the Regio Montana system was due to external circumstances rather than any inherent superiority basically. He's saying this is an early example of what we're talking about here about placid. As being this system that printed tables were the most widely available for or easily accessible for in the twentieth century there was a similar thing with Reggio Montana's starting at the end of the Fifteenth Century. Because it was one of the first houses of tables for quadrant houses and calculated them that was printed on the printing press and thus became widely available only a few decades after the printing press itself was was invented. Think that's true. But it is also true that Reggie Montana's claimed he understood this passage from ptolemy whereas others hadn't so he claimed that he was a true disciple of Ptolemy and was directly interpreting his intent and had done it mathematically so that there was a reason a theoretical reason to use his method. If you believe he'd done what he did and marina sexually when he wrote his book on houses said that Reggio Montana's Wiz the most rational system in his view. It's the best system the most rational system. The most in accord with logic and reason and modern science is he understood it right. That was his belief. But that's a good point that if you thought Reggie Montana's made a convincing argument intellectually and you looked at like a translation of Ptolemy and then you read Regiment Highness's arguments and you are persuaded by his arguments. Then you are partially than except the system because it intellectually seems to go back to the original system of Ptolemy if you believe he interpreted ptolemy correctly so you're saying I. I sent you some slides. One of the slides included. I don't know if it's possible to show it. Yeah let me see if I can that it's slide five and it's just it's a nice image. It's it's a book entitled the Epitome of the Alma just which ptolemies work on cosmology and astronomy from fourteen ninety six and this is the bottom of the front cover or frontispiece of Front. Cover the frontispiece of the book. And it shows Ptolemy on the left sitting and Reggie Montana's across the table having a conversation with him so clearly. The message. Here is Reggie Montana's is understanding Ptolemy. He's correctly interpreting him. And here's a visual depiction of Herat. Joe Montana's is advancing the work of Ptolemy in the fifteenth century. Yeah I like that. They're just like sitting at the table writing some books. There there Bros. They're getting along. And Reggie Montana's is a buddy of ptolemy so this is a theoretical justification and will if you like ptolemy you gotta like Reggie Montana's because they're buddies. They shared the same ideas. The same language. Okay so really. Good points to that. And that's Regio Montana so I'm just gonNA look really quickly his date. 'cause I know we're talking about like the late fifteenth century but since we're mentioning him so much I wanna make sure so regio. Montana's is he was born in fourteen thirty six and died in fourteen seventy six so towards the end of that period. Let's say. He publishes his system of houses as well as his arguments argument arguing. This is the system of house. Division that Ptolemy intended and that became the basis of the argument and then he printed his tables which became widely accessible and widely used. And so this is the reason then. Why later astrologers like William Lilly for example uses regio Montana's houses when he casts Charts believing Christian astrology in sixteen forty seven right but throughout Europe. It was accepted because it was taught the teachers of astrology reteaching regiment. And Scott it right. He understood ptolemy so let's uses system got unfortunately the tables are available so we can do it. Easily right okay. So and then it becomes a circular thing in terms of it having than that ancient authority but then also of course because of that perceived intellectual credit that it has or I can think of the word but That it then becomes widely circulated in terms of the availability of those tables so therefore even astrologers. Let's say that are not focused on like Ptolemy and able to accurately like do textual analysis of Ptolemy Regio Montana's to confer compare and see if that's true. There's probably some strangers that are just gonNA use what's available and if regiment harnesses widely available to calculate quarter houses. That's what they're going to use and what teachers taught them ran. What the majority of astrologers using the must be reasoned using. Yeah exactly so. It's very similar to modern times and that's one of the things. I love so much in studying the history of astrology. There's always these parallels or these cyclical trends that are very similar that you can see some times in the astrological community today that have very similar parallels throughout history and different different periods You okay so this is Reggio Montana's and that's the fifteenth century when he published that I don't know the exact year that he published his work. Do you happen to know that off hand. I'd have to look it up. Okay think it might be sixteen or fourteen sixty four Just glancing through some stuff but anyways around the middle of the fifteenth century basically and then so that means we're talking about what a couple of centuries later when placid comes on the scene and publishes his work right sixteen sixteen fifty and then so the context the reason we focused on that. So much that Reggie Montana's then became the most popular system of House. Division in many places for a couple of centuries after that point partially due to the intellectual he our arguments he made about ptolemy but then placid has comes on the scene and he has a new reinterpretation of that chapter of Ptolemy both in terms of what he thought told me system of House division was that he was trying to outline as well as what ptolemies approach to primary directions was and he publishes this in sixteen fifty and yet basically. What's unique is that he also then like. Reggie Montana's is thought then widely to be the first to correctly understand Holomisa's system of primary directions as well as house division so Plazas introduces the what we know today of as the placid system of House Division that this point basically right along with US system of primary directions right so and this is partially based on a reinterpretation of basically the same passage of of Ptolemy What's weird about this though? Is that colden? James Holden argues in his works. That plazas was actually correct and actually correctly reconstructed for the first time. What Ptolemy is system of primary directions was his reconstruction was accurate on that? Count however Holding her holden says that he plans however misunderstood ptolemies intended system of house division and instead in his view introduced something much more elaborate or much more controversy complicated than what was called for Based on the Greek text in his view. Is that your view as well. Or where do you come down on? That will have heavy read. I don't read Greek translation in English of Ptolemy And knowing the history of Reggie Montana placid I would agree with James Holden that I think what happened. Was Astrologers had this belief that the house system had the matched a system of primary direction if. That's your premise. Then placid has has to invent a new house system. He did understand calumnies method of primary directing with proportional semi arc methods professional that and he assumed as most astrologer the period that will if I direct planets by proportional semi arc. I have to construct. The houses by proportional semi are two meaning that in the system. Each house is to Planetary Hours in duration or enlightened. That was a new concept. I don't think it is in column. I think Ptolemy was simply dividing the wheel into segments of thirty degrees or some sort of equal division of the wheel he added. That seems to have been both. I believe like James. Holden's interpretation of what told me is trying to do in that chapter that he was doing some form of equal house divisions equal house from the ascendant but not exactly because I think he started five degrees before the ascendant right and then also that was Robert Schmitz interpretation. I believe of that passage of ptolemy that it was an equal house. Division that started five degrees above the degree of the ascendant or had arranged extended five degrees above so but but placid EST saw in trying to reconstruct system of primary directions. He took some of what told me was genuinely doing with primary directions and apply that the house system and came up with this new elaborate system of House Division and then believed that this was what ptolemy richly intended so that he had rediscovered like this ancient more complex and more what he believed would be more accurate system of house division. While I think part of what I don't like threw him off for May was part of his creative genius. Is that in primary directions. Planets moving to the mid heaven. Degree are very significant. They're the most important primary directions you can have so it kind of made sense that the mid heaven degree which is usually in the tenth house whole side but may not be would act like a tenth house cusp so that was a quadrant house idea and so if you moved quadrant houses than the plastic system makes perfect sense if you stick with whole sign houses then you're back to ptolemies original okay but so one of the things. That's interesting about this to me. Is this passage of Ptolemy. So one of the things you pointed out in the old Holden has pointed is that even though the placid how system bears the name of placid us at this point. This wasn't actually the first time historically that it was introduced but in fact Ibanez era describes the same approach all the way back in like what the Twelfth Thirteenth Century Welsh really hundreds of told century okay so Ebenezer also describes the same system but then as far as we know placid as didn't have wasn't reading Ebenezer doesn't cite him so holden seems to say that They must have discovered it and come up with independently basically. I don't know the answer to that but it seems to me that they both read. Ptolemy had the same understanding of Ptolemy and came up with the same system was other people didn't have that understand but that's not so if you read a difficult text right everyone's GonNa come way with a different idea about it. Yeah yes surprising. The two very bright astrologers would make a similar to save interpretation yet and they're also different arguments about that with different things like the calculation for the law or the part of fortune and different calculations that you can use depending on how astrologers reading different tax and things like that so in. It's interesting in terms of Ptolemy told me text was being interpreted in different ways like I said going back to the Greek tradition because so holden and Schmidt both Say THAT PTOLEMY was describing equal houses essentially in this chapter and if you read advice to Thebes who was writing in the early in Greek in the early fifth century around Fourteen fifteen. Fico when he first describes it that's basically how he describes it as that he says it's viewed as like an equal house system but then he cites another early commentator on Ptolemy named Penn Carias who interpreted differently and at this point introduces what was either a modified version of what's called the outcome bishop's house system or Holden says that it may have been like a modified version of the poor free house system of quadrant house division so basically even back in the Greek tradition these different authors reading the same passage of Ptolemy were generating different forms of house division just by attempting to interpret the same passage so that's at least three different forms of house. Division that are being generated purely based on textual or partially at least largely based on textual reasons as this attempt to reconstruct what Ptolemy was trying to say in the bishops of a precursor to placid Time based system. So okay. That's not so unusual that you would think in terms of time instead of space. So I think before I lose this thought. Part of the brilliant supplant citizen Reading Ptolemy he also had studied Kepler's works Kepler Kane before Ptolemy for before placid us these keywords confused me Kalemie Kepler came before placid us and WanNa Kepler's major findings. I think it's his second law. Planetary motion is that the planets will sweep out equal areas in equal lengths of time and plastics was very similar with Kepler's laws. You probably taught them in his university courses so he was used to thinking that time and space or connected to. We have to think of A. He didn't use the word. But it's Kinda pre Einstein that he's thinking in terms of the space time continuum now that you can't measure things just spatially which is what Reggio Montana stood. You can't measure them just temporarily. You have to think of space. Time as COUPLA did equal areas and equal amounts of time and ptolemies houses are very much like that their areas of space swept out in equal amounts of time Hepler Keppler in idea that ptolemy applies to that placid a supplies to the Poe Systems Games. Okay so Basically though part of this means that interpretations of this passage or this chapter in Ptolemy have generated multiple house systems and so this is why gyms holden called this the most controversial chapter basically ever in the history of astrology or or something to that effect we can we can start to see why because there is literally centuries of guys of astrologers trying to go back and figure out and understand read. Ptolemy and try to reconstruct what he was doing and sometimes coming to different conclusions which would then generating different technical systems which were then sometimes changing the history of astrology when astrologers than would get excited about what they thought Ptolemy was doing in figuring out the original system and then everyone would switch to whatever. The new thing was alright. So that's all the background on this. So let's talk a bit then about the impact of placid as once he publishes these works in the middle of the seventeenth century. outlining this new system of house division or at least what for him was a new system of house. Division essentially so placid system of houses didn't impact William Lily's Christian astrology famously like the earliest or one of the earliest major technical works on. Astrology are instructional manuals on its neurology in the English language because it was published in sixteen forty seven So Lily used regio. Montana's houses and suited his disciples like John Cadbury Berry and Henry. Cooley right wrong. They used them well into the rest of the century. From the time of lily his disciples used Reggie Montana's until at least seventeen hundred day died in the early seventeen hundreds okay. So Lily himself is. His dates are like born six. O Two and died sixteen eighty one and then John Gatt Berry is sixteen. Twenty seven to seventeen four and Henry. Coli is sixteen thirty three to seventeen seven. So yeah you're right so so during this. Even though placid this was many people in England were getting interested in placid as the Louis Group stuck with Roger Montana's okay and then but unfortunately for placid as while he was still alive. I believe one of the points that you make that you really emphasizes that. His work was forbidden by the cat. Catholic church later in his life and his book was placed on the index of or the Church's index of Forbidden Books In sixteen eighty seven. Right his for those non-catholics. I'm okay. I grew up Catholic so I know about the mix. It was still in effect when I was a child. Actually got literally finally in the Twentieth Century there were. I was born in nineteen forty five. Okay I went to Catholic Schools. A child and there were books you could not read. It was considered a sin. A violation of your faith and the church eventually got rid of this index but it was a way of controlling what you read so you wouldn't read heretical stuff. That would challenge your faith and to even know why he was added to it like that was one thing I tried to look at. I can't find a reference You it's interesting this. This isn't aside the the church. If Giordano Bruno weedon discuss was a very brilliant cosmologists. He was burned at the stake because he held positions based on his reason that violated church dogma. A there's a very interesting biography of him. In which the biographer actually reproduces. Got Hold of the transcript of his trial for heresy and she can read what he was charged of. And how the trial won't and unfair. He was kind of provocative guy. This is them decide. What's interesting and very logical. Very create a creative genius and one of the things he would say which was really stupid if you're in a Catholic country where the church can burn you at the stake. Is that it scientifically impossible for a virgin to give birth without being impregnated by sperm so the Virgin Birth of Mary Keebli for the church is scientifically impossible. So Nice Myth. A nice story but it couldn't have happened. Welton of course he. The church is not going to life with placid. It's one of the slides I sent you and actually this is i. Think the key passage slide. Seven brief I can read. This is an English translation of by Who translated this Cooper Cooper's eighteen fourteen translation of classes sixteen fifty text? I think is the key paragraph. Let me read. The first sentence places writes I desire. No other guides but ptolemy reason now what he's saying is that I don't care what the pope says. I don't care what the church says. I don't care what the hierarchy says. I'm just GONNA listen to Ptolemy says what my reason tells me to be true. This is going to get him in trouble with the church because okay from the position. The church put Galileo under house arrest for not recanting his belief that the sun was the center of the Solar System Right now. Isn't that much earlier. Because Galileo only the beginning of the sixteen hundreds maybe a few decades earlier yes. Galileo died in sixteen forty two. So yeah like you said just a few decades so for him to State and writing my only guides remember. He's a Catholic monk so he's supposed to obey the church obey the pope niece. I'M NOT GONNA listen to you if my reason tells me otherwise. When this book came out he was censured by the church. They let him publish it. But with censure means they didn't like certain parts of it. Okay and I think he was censured three times and finally they put him on the index. I think it was sixteen. Eighty seven might date wrong. Yes sixteen eighty seven. Is What what you wrote or I wrote in the notes yen. So but what's interesting sixteen eighty seven? That is the same year that a an abridged translation of Ptolemy came out in English in England. Right and that's why the band and that's something you really focused on is important because while placid Os's works then became banned in a Catholic countries on the continent in Europe in Protestant England. The there was no band because there was no religious. Like enforcement of the same way that there was your exact and probably this is a guest. Unlike part I have no proof I would think that Protestant astrologers in England knowing that the pope didn't want you to read this would even more interested. Okay it's like if I tell you if you're a parent and you say don't you read that novel. What are the kids going to do? They're going to pick up the novel Sure so By the end than even though it didn't influence lily and some of his initial students in the middle of the seventeenth century by the end of the seventeenth century placid ss work in his attempt to reconstruct ptolemy and his reinterpretation to introduce this more. Ptolemaic approach to primary directions as well as his new system of house. Division started to become populated popular among the english-speaking astrologers at the time by the end of the seventeenth century and see. I think what have to use another analogy ridge. Montana's was close. He took this very puzzling passage by column. About how do you know when planets or an equivalent places in a primary directions? They have to be a certain relation to the horizon and amid heaven the Meridian and he constructed circles that seemed to work except it wasn't quite exactly a hundred percent right and then classes came along head assistant that works perfectly. It would be like the Rubik's cube if you worked at got everything right but only one little square was out of the wrong color and the plastic does the Rubik's cube in everything perfectly aligned. I mean what do you mean by perfect? Because that's one of the problems when you get into usually people instead of this approaching the house division thing from a historical standpoint like we're doing here they'll approach it from an astronomical standpoint and there's been a lot of good work done that shows that the lake astronomical validity of almost every system that each system has some sort of astronomical basis or a rationale for. They're just using different frames of reference. In order to calculate where the cusps should fall exact. I was talking about primary directions. Not House okay. Got It in other Ptolemies description of primary directions was what puzzled people? How do you get things? So that their equivalent equivalent places with respect to the horizon and the Meridian. Sure so Reggie Montana Scott. Rustling Karate. Almost maybe ninety nine percent right in then. Plastics came along and it was perfect. One hundred percent right exactly what class was saying then? The reasoning is that because plastic Scott. The primary directions right in terms of how Ptolemy did them. His house system must also be correct. Got a jump. That's a jump. So he built on the work of Reggie Montana's but he was able to nail it with the primary directions and actually you know in sort of contemporary historians opinions like James Holden that he did think that placid us was successful in reconstructing the original system of primary directions at Ptolemy used and so that then raised his profile and made people more open to thinking that he was right in reconstructing the system of house division. That ptolemy used at the same time because I think might be useful bit technical. Let me read the at least English version of that sentence of Ptolemy because we're talking about it without people knowing we must says it's not that complicated. I'll I'll I'll just read it to you. Have it is on the slides right? It is it slide Three okay industry just the thing in bold a place meaning place in the horoscope on the ecliptic could be a planet or of appoint is similar in the same by the same here. I think he means equivalent. So let me save quivalent. I'm changing the translation. Bit a place as similar and equivalent if it has the same position and same direction with reference to both the horizon and the Meridian. And so this may not sound like it makes a lot of sense but all he's saying is that if you have a quadrant house system if there are two planets in a quadrant. How do you know when one planet aligns with the other and Taliban saying they have to be in the same position in the same direction with reference to both the horizon? The Meridian. And he says that's done by proportional stomach. Are you read the rest of that or is that just could I? I don't WanNa get too technical but okay. Yeah that's fun. No we don't have to So but the point is the really important underlying point here. I guess that we have to emphasize is just that it became popular amongst English. Astrologers by the end of the seventeenth century partially or maybe even largely because it was seen as a new or radical reinterpretation ptolemy and an innovation and there was that theme again of recovering lost wisdom that had been obscured which then there was this idea that it would help improve the techniques in the practice of astrology by recovering this ancient wisdom that was lost and so it starts rapidly becoming popular by the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century and in many ways we can see parallels like we said earlier at similar to the recent popularization of whole sign. Houses are a time where it was similarly like something where the concept of whole sign houses didn't even survive until James Holden I in the nineteen eighties pointed out that this was the system that all of the early hellenistic or the Greek astrologers were using and then subsequently project hindsight with Robert and Robert's Schmidt made the same discovery and also pointed out that that seemed to be the system and it's been popularized over the course of the past two or three decades since then you'll sort of based on similar underlying motivations are themes. I think that's true. I want to add in terms of towel. Placid that the British astrologers who got into it was kind of a conversion experience like religious conversion partridge. Especially who was a main proponent? He wrote a book. I forget what year late sixteen hundreds I thought it was like an astrologer handbook fifth Exact title Straw astronauts Make or something. Did you WANNA mention Kirby I will mention? Let's stick with this because he was really the the big prime mover of this Kirby and Vicious did a translation a brief abridged translation of plastics. Oh introduced it into the English language right so that was in sixteen. Eighty seven sixty seven. Do you have the date of Partridges first book The very first one his first book was I. Think Sixteen Seventy Nine sixteen seventy nine okay. So that was before okay. And he was espousing. Reggie Montana's houses in that book. He begins the book with tables of Reggio Montana's houses and so I think this is one argument against the the people who say will placid is only popular because those were the only houses available partridges books were still available in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries and people could have easily reproduced his tables- original Montana's houses just copied them would have been very easy and fourteen years later partridge than read placid astride his techniques. Scott wild by them slut. Oh my God I've making. This is my version of it. I've been doing it all wrong. Plasticized showed me the way I see the light and right he then. I think fourteen years after his first book where he's using restroom. Tana's came out with the second book which he calls his opus reform. Optum I think is I'm performed. I see that I see the truth. Now and said forget Reggie Montana's he made a mistake. Gold placid as he knows what he's talking about. If you WanNa Follow Ptolemy writes so John. Partridge who lived from. Sixteen forty four to seventeen fifteen. He was like the last major English astrologer of the seventeenth century but he also became. I'm not in his first book. But in his second third book very vocal proponent of the placid a system of house division and this ended up having a big impact because he was like the last major English astrologer he basically had a conversion experience she read placid as in his eyes open. Whether something else weird going on with with partridge though because he also cold in points out in his work then partridge initially had a teacher who praises in his first book in sixteen seventy nine but then when it comes to his second in his third books. He's just like very viciously constantly attacking or exude very confused tech. Ed Berry viciously yen in not holding. It was Martin Johnston actually in his book on Primary Directions. He has a really interesting discussion about this and he just talks about how. How Partridge had a falling out with. I guess his teacher or at least with this earlier author John Gadd Berry who he was very fond of in speaks of favorably in his first book but then fourteen years later he's referring to him with all sorts of negative language and it seems like there was some sort of transformation that partridge went through. That wasn't just a technical transformation but he was also attacking other astrologers who viewed as bad for whatever reason you so maybe that was partially contributing for. I don't know how much that was. A contributing factor as well versus. You know just being swayed by the technical arguments of placid us. Or what have you? What are you saying that there aren't hostilities? And animosities between strategies who have different opinions. Yeah that's just bringing up the point that sometimes again parallels in modern times the ancient times and this is one of the ones I was to Nina Griffin recently about maybe doing an episode about infighting among like astrologers history especially in the seventeenth century where. It starts being more well documented. There's all these funny little like Clicks clicks or these little groups that were like started into fighting with each other or sometimes like teachers and students who would have a falling out and they would speak harshly each other and that sometimes these personal disputes between astrologers that started as personal turn into things that become professional or sometimes effect the astrological tradition sometimes what we might think or what even put forward as technical disagreements that are supposedly coming from technical places can sometimes becoming from personal dispute between people each other. Your podcast on whole sign houses being the best system you for so right. Yeah I mean that's a good example or even to some extent project hindsight and the breaking up of project hindsight in the nineteen nineties. I think was partially due to personal issues. That eventually became professional dispute and then changed history a little bit as a result of them sadly but That might be something to talk about. We can kind of shelve that now. I'll see you out find the But I just think astrologer human like everybody else. We have our foibles and do crazy things at times yes. It's just important to keep that in mind when it comes to some of these people that sometimes they might be swayed by technical arguments and other times they might be swayed by Personal issues so actually found it So Martin Johnston in his book which is amazing and I hope to interview him about at some point titled Primary Directions. Astrology is old master techniques Which was published by the Wessex Astrologer in two thousand nine? And I believe you drew on this or or cited this year anniversary. Excellent excellent book. Okay so he says that he's talking about John Partridge and he says in sixteen seventy nine published his first work and he notes that it's a small book And in the beginning he says it quote contained a laudatory epistle by the author and he refers to quote my good friend. John Partridge the will he he. He basically says a lot of Tory epistle by John Gad Berri Student in the Central Science unto the readers of my good friend John Partridge so basically Gad Berri Wrote something positive for partridge in his first book and they must have been connected personally or teachers but then fourteen years later. Partridge publishes his second book opus. Referenda mottom reformed work any says Johnston says quote unquote in which he rejected the doctrines of the medieval astrologers in favor of Ptolemy plazas although the latter Israeli mentioned by name more particularly the book sets out to Refute Gad Berri who is abused on nearly every page of the book not only as an incompetent ignorant and dishonest astrologer but also as a traitor turncoat. The background of this bitter attack Leeann Gad. Berries Newfound Catholic sympathies during the religio political struggle over the English throne towards the end of the seventeenth century and then against and goes on. He says partridges own. Sympathies lay with the parliament and in particular Oliver Cromwell. Who Nativity and placidly directions or discussed extensively in the book etc etc. Keep going on. And says Partridge was by no means the only English astrologer of his day to Take Plaza de and teachings to heart others included. Richard Caribbean John. Bishops Bishop who had a few years before had published marrow of astrology and unacknowledged and somewhat abbreviated translation of classes work with very little original content added but there is little doubt that partridge was the most influential in bringing about the Plaza de and revolution in England and by extension and making Platt sits the grandfather of modern Western astrology so Anyway supplies. This is a big deal. There was some technical reasons he was drawn. Or Partridge is a big deal. There was some technical reasons he was drawn to placid us. And they're also potentially some personal stuff going on at the same time so but this is when astrology is already in steep decline in Europe and it's like falling out of the universities and falling out of intellectual the intelligentsia in general. So we're going into like a a century or two low period for the practice of astrology. By this point anyways dozen disappears just subsides. Sure so in that low period when there's like for example less there's fewer astrologers and there's fewer books on astrology that are being published for a couple of centuries. One of the books that is that is transmitted is William Lily's book which is republished at some point in the nineteenth century in an abridged form and this is the famous Zad Keel addition lily. Were he like abbreviated. William Lily's Christian astrology and he also updated like added some new things but one of the things that he did that I find really interesting is that he took even lily used. Reggie on his houses and he included a table for calculating. Reggie Montana's house cusps in Christian astrology in the original book from Sixteen Forty Seven. In Zad Kill Edition he removes that table of Reggie Montana's and replaces it with a table of placid US houses. I don't know if he did put I'd have to look I know. He removed the regio tables. I don't know if he put plastic tables in their place or just let tables out altogether how. He just took it out altogether. Okay I'd have to look. I don't think he put New Table. Sin And I'm not sure whether he recast all the charts placid us or whether he just kept lillies. Original regio charts. I just have to look. I don't know maybe that was something I misunderstood by you. Did you did say that. He at least removed the Regio. Montana's table right because regio wasn't being used anymore right supplies. It has had already time taken over and become popularized partially due to guys like cartridge and the point I was making when I wrote that was because he was a bridging lillies original texts he could easily have just reproduced the plant. The regio tables okay and then they would have been available to everybody but he deliberately chose to eliminate those tables from the abridged text. Got It okay. And so that may have influenced history to some extent so then when we get to the early twentieth century astrologers We find in the early late nineteenth and Early Twentieth Century Allen Leo was using placid US houses Since that had become the standard practice in England at that point and before Leo was a Luke Broughton. I don't know if I wrote that. I think I might have put a slide with with Brown. One of the slides. Okay let me remind that really quick. That's probably toward the end. The last two slides because some people can't see this Luke broten Luke. Dennis Rodman was a British guy. He and his brother had both learned astrology. In England Leeds England. He's born in eighteen twenty eight and then in eighteen forty roughly. He came to the United States. I think to study naturopathic medicine but he quickly became an astrologer published a monthly journal Astrology Journal from eighteen sixty to sixty nine and then wrote a book the elements of astrology published in eighteen. Ninety eight he was a very influential. British astrology who began teaching a lot of people in the United States astrology and he learned astrology using placid houses. And that's what he taught for those who can see it I reproduced his chart which he drew his book and He also cites plasticine his texts. That's the the next slide Gut just so he was using seventeen. Eighty-nine Sibley Translation Sibley of the famous Sibley. Us HR actually translated plan Magnum opus into English. As Well Okay. So there were multiple translations of your hostages. Were good I know of you. Okay so not only did. That's really important. Point than not only then did supplies. It has published his work In sixteen fifty and not only was it only available in English speaking countries at least in terms of being banned by the Catholic Church but in there were at least three different translations of parts or all of placid is's work into English and so this became than one of the intellectually for the intellectual astrologers really compelling things about that system of house division. Is that those arguments were in circulation in translation that you could actually read an English in terms of his arguments about why. This interpretation of Ptolemy was correct and just to get back to Sibley Sibley was a prominent and influential astrologer and so in seventeen eighty nine people were reading passages. Okay Yeah Ebonics are simply right who published. You said that one of the first horoscopes of the United States founding vegetable that's an episode Mehan Nina Griffin. And I are working on actually. GonNa do next month. So and then Luke. Broughton was a very famous and influential astrology in the in American the United States so then that means this is not just restricted to England at this point but instead one of the more prominence prominent astrologers in the US also is using endorsing students learning. Because you used it okay. Perfect So and then on your slide here. It just says that Britain's monthly planetary Reader Astrological Journal from eighteen sixty eighteen sixty nine used placid has houses as did his eighteen ninety eight text book on astrology. Got It okay so That's bringing us all the way up to modern times and Alan. Leo is also another great popularizer. He's usually at least attributed having the role of re popularized astrology and helped to spur the revival of astrology especially in English speaking countries in the West in the early twentieth century and he used plazas houses in his many because he published something like a dozen books. Yeah Okay let's see so that's bringing us all the way up to the present time where the early twentieth century astrologers tend to use plazas and this also meant that tables of houses for placid as were printed up and became widely available. So that we start getting into that circular thing again in terms of availability partially coming from the intellectual credibility that the system had in being this supposed interpretation of Ptolemy but then also it started becoming widely available so that. I'm sure even people that weren't necessarily reading Ptolemy or following that whole textual argument or historical argument were also using it because then if it's endorsed by astrologers like Alan Leo then and the tables are widely available than people are just going to start using it based on that president. Evangeline Adams use plastic shoes quite influential in the first several decades of the twentieth century. Okay are there any other major astrologers like that that are worth mentioning that endorsed? I think I put a note on the Google. Docs that in France Alexander Volgin who extensively studied and wrote a book on solar returns which influenced a huge number of astrologers up to about the nineteen seventies. Initially wrote in French with his books were translated into English and Spanish and maybe other languages and he published a journal that went. I think from the late thirties to the nineteen. Seventies. A Research Journal in which he and his students literally studied thousands of Charts Sola returns and demonstrated that plastic cuffs were very sensitive points in predicting from Sola returns so there's a was a great deal of empirical justification these demonstration by the School of the strategy and France and he was quite influential especially in France but in Europe and eventually in the United States and England when the books got translated and he espoused the use of plastics with Sola returns and it wasn't just theoretical. He would show example after example of how the predictions worked. As as you would expect. Sure right okay. So then in the twentieth century ago saying the plastics becomes the primary system. That houses are available for tables of houses available. This is important because when calculating by hand you need a table of houses to calculate charcoal calculate house cusps which simplifies some of the mathematics involved. In what is already kind of a tedious process if you're calculating charts by hand if anyone's ever done that before which some people have just gotten into the field in the past couple of decades haven't necessarily additionally astrologers one of the points it's may be worth making here's that astrologers don't tend to be highly skilled in astronomy while the tend to be more focused on interpreting charts in the act of chart interpretation or of timing or other things which can still be highly detailed technical processes or skills to acquire. They're not always hugely skilled in the background. Astronomy because that's not necessary even even to some extent to calculate charts by hand. If you have a table of houses if you have an Ephemera as you can calculate birth chart just by knowing the steps to do without even fully fully understanding all of the technical arguments behind placid as a house system versus regio Montana's versus whatever the yes and no generally. Yes but if you're doing techniques like primary directions it's important to know the latitude of the planet because most planets are not on the ecliptic and although that's funny primary fell out that's one of the things that's funny about. Alan Leo. For example promoting primarily secondary progressions. Is that much more simplified timing techniques start to dominate in the twentieth century like secondary progressions and transits and the more complicated advanced techniques like primary directions. Seemed like they've fell out of vogue a little bit to some extent. I think they have. I think that's unfortunate because server very good and very powerful techniques. Sure and. That's fine. I I was just point that out in terms of so much of this. Historical argument has been wrapped up of this different systems of house. Division has been wrapped up in the issue with primary directions and PTOLEMIES. Treatment of those two things being intertwined that it's interesting that by the Twentieth Century. One of the other things that happens in addition to strong getting simplified. Is You know that other piece of it. Primary directions can falling by the wayside as a technique and instead secondary progressions which is much simpler to calculate becomes much more prominent so eventually with advent of computerized the secondary progressions were invention placid via. That was supposed to be one of the other things that he except I was just reading. I believe it was Gadston or possibly holden that said that that was another thing that plastics read into ptolemy where he thought Ptolemy was talking about this technique which we know as secondary progressions were basically equivalent you equivalents which is not a word one day per one day for each year of the natives life but in fact the passage where placid a Scott that in developed secondary progressions as a result was actually told him he was just talking about perfection. You like annual projections where you just count oncein per year forward but the point I was making was that was a follow up to your comment. That MODERN DESTROY US. All these very simple techniques like secondary progressions will they oh that the placid whatever. His motivation was He was such a genius. He had so many creative ideas. And this is what. The British astrologers were fascinated by that. He gave a secondary progressions regardless of the origin whether it was a mistake or not. And they're probably one of the most widely used predictive tools that we have and I mean a technique just because it's Let's say a misunderstanding. Or just because a new technical concept. This is something that one of my teachers Robert Schmidt always really emphasized and I thought it was a great point and he drew this conclusion from mathematics. Which is that I think he was saying like Algebra Calculus or something Or some advanced forms of it developed out of misunderstanding of women earlier authors. Were doing that sometimes. There can be creative developments in fields. That can be valid developments that develop out of a misunderstanding of what an ancient astrologer was trying to say though because sometimes in the process of trying to read an ancient taxed and understanding ancient astrologer. it can be creative process that opens things up that you otherwise wouldn't have seen even if that wasn't the original astrologers intention that's true so it's like that's certainly valid and we have to make room for that that there can sometimes be positive creative developments that derived from a misunderstanding. But then at the same time we also have to recognize knowledge that this one passage of ptolemy generated three at least maybe four different discrete forms of house division and all of them have been misinterpretations of what the original author was attempting to say. And so there's something that's a little suspect there that we have to also be aware of are open too in terms of the origin or the generation of this technique. Another way to frame. That is that ptolemy was dealing with a certain problem and he came up with a solution that people didn't quite understand in their in their efforts to understand how he solved the problem. They came up with other creative ways to solve the same problem. Okay yeah that's that's a good way of framing. I like that. But there's just different arguments you can make. And because these issues are intertwined and it's tied up with Lake Technical Astronomical Considerations it's tied up with philosophical considerations it's tied up with even historical or textual analysis type considerations. There's a lot going on here in terms of the generation of some of these different systems. Eventually once you get to the past few decades to more recent times with the advent of computerized astrology and websites plazas Was often the default system of House Division. When you go to calculate like birth charter something and for people of my generation where I started learning astrology around the year two thousand Through the website Astra Dot com or through Astros. Deans placid being the default on ASTRA DOT COM. Was a big deal. Because that means that that's the first system that you start with in the accuracy your inaccuracy of the interpretations than partially depends on that and so to go against that and go with some other forms house. Division often means rejecting what I learned but also rejecting. Sometimes what drew you to astrology or made you think that that was compelling in the first place if you resonated with that interpretation of your birth chart or what have you so for these and some of the reasons that we've listed above and maybe some we didn't go into those are the reasons why placid a- says the most popular system of House Division today? You think it's basically the British astrologers from Partridge forward who read plaza. Some were compelled by his thinking thought that he had it right. And so they popularized it continued to use. It taught their students and it became the way to do astrology. That was accepted in the the group Astrological Society in England for a couple of centuries and that just carried forward because we basically learned astrology from British astrologers right and then with astrology being revived so much over the past few decades. It seems like The output of astrology books from English speaking countries from like the US and from the UK often get translated into other languages and can sometimes have the effect of influencing sometimes even astrology and other countries or other languages at this point. It's link like have some and if you're in a few books if any of your books been translated into other languages a funny you should mention that the horry book I think is in Russian okay. the Tarot books are in Spanish Japanese Russian? And I think there's a pirated Chinese edition. So China wrote to me of a question my book and read and Chinese. I don't think I have a Chinese edition. Will I do but has nothing to do with the my publisher translated yet? I know like Alan. Leo's books were. That was one of the reasons why he was influential. Is that his books. Were very popular in English early twentieth century and then they were translated in some instances into like French and German and other languages so that then would have exported placid us into those countries Yes so it actually placid as in India this this whole. Kp system the Christian murthy system do know about that system only a little difficult on a basically he took the western idea of plazas classes house cusps and the publicity an idea of space time and he converted dashes. Which are you have a planet? That's a major Lord Lord which is time based it's like Sadako releasing where things go through time. He converted that into space where they would be on the natal chart and Then uses the the rulers of placid his customers they relate to the dashes the VIM shelter dashes to make interpretations the the people who use it. Say It's very accurate. Someone I know inundate. His uncle is is is practices. This form of astrology. He says his uncle can make predictions down to the minute. Like my letter will arrive at twelve. Forty two than the postman comes at twelve. Forty two ND. So I mean whether that's true or not I don't know but he. I mean in terms of the technical accuracy of the system. I mean what they asked you this before interest rate look what system of House division to us. Personally I experiment. I'm not convinced. Any of them is true. So I gotta do natal charts generally usable whole sign an placid us. I look at both okay and I like actually the Indian system where they put the plastic cups in the whole signs in interpreted as a unit and I learned this from wryness and I mentioned at the Charlie over what I was translating book eighteen. There's a passage where he's discussing. The chart of King Alfonso Sweden Gustaf Gustaf Gustaf all phones and The king dies in battle and foreign country and MARINA SAYS. Will you look at his chart? His He's got a debilitated Saturn in the eighth. Reggie Montana's house. So that's probably what's going to kill him? But the Eighth Reggie. Montana's house is really the ninth signed from the ascendant. And so he calls this the whole signs the accidental houses and he says so his true House placement is regiment has eighth house. He's going to die but the accidental houses the ninth because I think he's got Leo Or something like that is in the ninth hole side. So he's going to die in a foreign country so marinas basically uses a combination of whole sign and Reggio on. Tana's reticence calling Holstein houses equals accidental houses. So that's not unlike what the late Hellenistic and early medieval astrologers notorious Masha Allah and Sol. Were doing even up to some extent. You're using a combination of both whole sign houses in quadrant houses at the same time but he marinas considered Reggio to be the essential house and wholesome to be the accidental house and he combined the meaning of the two to make an interpretation which is fascinating. Yeah that that seems like it was an avenue that the like I said late. Hellenistic and early medieval geologists were headed in as well. Then something happened after the time of Apple Machar as I was talking to. Ben Dykes about in my interview with him about his new translation of Apple Returns last summer on Straw. Podcast where it seemed like after Amish are something changed and astrologers largely largely forgotten about Holson houses and started largely focusing on just doing quadrant houses. Although you mentioning Marinus using both seems like an interesting departure there in some ways you're exception to that rule should say we get into the either or black and white thinking like either. This house system is the rest correct one or this one. But why couldn't they both be valid and information's I mean I think they could both be valid but I think we do need to figure out the Squadron House thing and if we're going to reconcile quadrant houses with whole sign houses. There needs to be a good reason. Why an astrologist should have a reason why they're using a specific form of quadrant house division rather than another whether that's astronomical or philosophical or what have you because part of issue is we can see that some of these systems of house. Division just came out of different interpretations of Ptolemy and they can't all be correct. Somebody's misinterpreting Ptolemy meant may be interpretations of what Ptolemy are was trying to do isn't even the best reason to be generating a house in the first place. Who's to say Ptolemy was correct in the first place right? He could have been mistaken won't or even was even trying to describe a form of quadrant house division or is holding and Schmidt correct that he was just describing a form of equal houses or I forgot to mention. We didn't even mention poor free houses which derives from the introduction to the. Tetra blows that was attributed to poor freer. That may have been written by the philosopher. Poor free in the third or fourth century and in that he interpreted what Ptolemy was doing as what we know is poor free houses where you just take the degree of the mid Heaven and the of the ascendant in the new divide. That's quadrant or each of the four quadrants into three sections wrote three little sections you right through proportional sections so that's like a third each houses exactly one third of the division of the quadrant. And so that's another house system than that was partially developed out of just an attempt to interpret what ptolemy was doing. Okay so that was. The main thing I wanted to cover today was just the historical origins and that was the main part of your article that I think you did. A really brilliant job outlining ridges the. Yeah the just the historical origins of placid us and why it became the primary or the default system of house. Division in modern times and yet becomes circular thing. We're talking about is partially historical reasons. But then eventually at some point gains enough steam that it becomes a matter of precedence and the system that is in circulation that is the default system that people learn first from their teachers and then pass on subsequently And there's a little bit of an issue as well where sometimes you know. Some charts changed radically depending on what house system you're using but some tourists don't change much at all. And sometimes people I feel like most of the time. There's a large percentage of astrologers that often will pick the system of house division based on their perception of their natal chart and where it puts certain planets in their own houses and sometimes some of the houses will only change like a few degrees or move the cusps and move one planet into one house or into another house and that becomes smiling. Marinas does that. He does whole book on houses. He gives all these arguments about why he believes. Most houses are worthless. Except for Reggie Montana's and they're sort of Highfalutin very intellectual and he's the clincher. Is He says when I look at my own chart registered. The Ninth Cusp Reggie. Montana's is perfectly trying my ascendant reflecting how brilliant I am so of course. It's the races all right. I mean and I feel like I see similar arguments. Most of the time when it comes to strangers personal views on which system of House division in that becomes another motivating factor for different systems of house. Division Yeah so that's a factor as well just from a historical perspective that we have to keep into account especially in modern times about why. Different astrologers sometimes switch systems as well even if oftentimes they don't know or understand the mechanics of the astronomy behind that system instead for them. It's just a a practical matter. Of what houses does that. Place the planets in in my chart and how would that change the interpretation and the actual like astronomical or mathematical information behind the system of house? Division is often Nadh the primary consideration for them or it's not even necessarily a consideration that they focus on you it gets in the past years has been trying to learn some about Indian astrology. Because that's a real gap in my knowledge of astrology. And when you start switching Zodiacs from tropical deal and then even if you're incidental there's so many options so that plants can change science or houses. Yeah it gets very confusing and I wanted to say about Indian astrology. I don't know enough about the house. Division issue to say this authoritatively but even though you mentioned like in the KP Astrology School of Indian astrology which is more modern. I think the developed in the twentieth century they have started incorporating placid us on top of whole sign houses I was under the impression that some the earlier astrologers when they used quadrant houses in the Indian tradition that there was more evidence of use of Like a poor free houses which is divided proportionally the poor very calm and some people using Campinas. Some people losing placid is. I'm I'm by no means an expert. astrology which out of red. I was hoping placing interviewing Another guy a person that I know for that to do an episode on like power some of the secondary forms of House division used in addition to whole sign houses as the primary form in Indian astrology and can that inform us or give us any hints about how we might reconcile those two systems in the western tradition. So we'll see if I do that at some point. Indian has absorbed so much from modern Western and I think the Persian influence the whole system of Sola returns of horror comes from the Arabic and Persian. Tradition got absorbed into India which they've been modified in different ways e Amin. There's the two GCA tradition in Indian astrology. Which is like medieval Persian Arabic astrology and Sanskrit but then they have their own horry tradition of Prussia. That's like purely whole sign Alright are there any other points about placid us and why it became the default of the most popular form of House Division that we completely forgot to mention that we should try to slide slip in before we wrap up. Nothing I can think of. I think the reason I wrote the articles I kept hearing people saying the only reason classes popular is because the tables were available and that was driving me crazy because it just leaves out so much of the history of astrology. Will I appreciate that? Maybe the primary person who's restated that statement from Holden I appreciate you for correcting that in bringing this other side to it because that's hugely important from a historical perspective and then makes much more sense in terms of actually understanding what happened in there is still some still some question at this point is will placid as for example whole sign. Houses has really rapidly become much more popular in the West in the past two or three decades since it was rediscovered and I've seen different Polls among astrologers and at least two of them placed whole sign houses as like the second most popular form of House Division under plazas Still being in the lead and I am curious in the future. What happens like what does House Division look like? By the end of the century by the end of the twenty first century in the world or an English speaking countries is plastic is still the dominant system by the end of the century. Let's say or our other systems to other systems. You know. Come into vogue for different reasons and I think it'll be really interesting to just watch and see what happens but yeah but This will provide us with additional historical context so that we can have more open discussions about you know why do use placid at Sir. Why do you use Reggie Montana's or poor free or equal houses our whole sign houses? Or what have you and giving astrologers a little bit more of an ability to talk about that from different perspectives. So they can give a good answer. That question arises are will. Thanks a lot for joining me today. Where can people you have a blog? You're actually a very active writer. Not just in writing a lot of different books but also US seem to write very interesting blog articles for quite a while. And you've been doing your blog for. I think ten years alright. We'll what happens is I love astrology. Have since I was eleven years old and I'm always I get interested in idea and I follow up and read about it and experimenting that if something interesting strikes me I like to write about it. Charlie said don't forget it right. I do a little blog post and that usually move onto something different. I just like to see where the ideas lead me and Yes it's a bit disorganized. Well no it's good and you've got hundreds of posts and your website or your blog is available at Tony. Lewis Dot wordpress dot com right with the best place to find me you. Are there any other websites or anything? No I'm I'm more of a perpetual student of astrology than anything else. Occasional readings were trust for people. That's not my main focus. I really like learning and experimenting. Senior ideas lead. Basically and your main Mentioning your main profession or novel look. I'm currently retired. I'M A PSYCHIATRIST. But astrologers interested me since I was very young and it's always been a hobby so And I like mentioning. I think I used your chart as an example but you published your first book on Horry Astrology. And that was one of the early books that was influenced by the revival of more traditional style. Really lillies style horry astrology in the late ninety elite eighties and early nineties. Remember what year that was that the book came out. I think it came out the end of nineteen eighty nine the first one or the very beginning of nineteen ninety okay and that was titled Horry astrology the history and practice of Astra donation which for some reason at least Amazon saying is nineteen ninety-one but that might be the later version so it was eventually republished by a maybe ninety one. Maybe it was ninety end of ninety and then it looks like llewellyn republished it as quarry astrology plain and simple fast and accurate answers to real world questions and you said that the Llewellyn version was more like a shortened version. I think Luella felt that the original version had too much basically historical side like the history of astrology. I had a very long chapter on the history of astrological concepts and I think they felt. It was using too much paper. And it wasn't essential to the technique So they had eliminated. Got The same book. The newer one has its missing the first chapter which is a more historical background. Okay and You actually won at the nineteen ninety. Two United Astrology Conference actually won a Regulus Award for having published. That book which had become very popular at the time wasn't the big. I'm GONNA be clear the big rig this award that at that time. I don't know if they still do it. We're giving B.'s. Smaller regulars awards. I One night promising Newcomer Award for published because that book was very popular very well reviewed okay so it was a very big surprise to me to get the award. He I think I used to in charge at one point. Either in my course or my book. 'cause you're an eleven? Th House perfection your. I think that year in that was your first time attending in astrology conference right a major one year. Yes Okay and you were given a word. Your lover's also can represent receiving honors or pretty's awards the yes and I think you're in a ten thousand perfection before but Awesome well thanks a lot for joining me today. And thanks for writing that article Will have to have to come back again. Some time to talk about some of your other many many interests and topics that you've you've written on pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. This was a lot of fun. Yeah thanks for joining me today and thanks everybody for listening to or watching this episode of the astrology. Podcast please be sure to like and subscribe or sign up to our page on Patriot Dot Com to support the production of future episodes of the show. So thanks everybody for listening and we'll see you again next time. Thanks to the patrons who helped to support the production of this episode of the astrology. Podcast through our page on Patriots Dot Com in particular shoutout to patrons Christine Stone. Nate critic and Merrin Altman as well as the astro gold astrology APP available at Astro Gold Dot. Co the Portland School of Astrology at Portland Astrology. Dot Org and honeycomb collective personal astrological almanacs available at honeycomb dot co the production of this episode of. The podcast is also supported by the International Society for Astrological Research which is hosting a major astrology conference in Denver Colorado September tenth through the Fourteenth Twenty. Twenty more information about that. I saw twenty twenty dot org and finally also solar fire astrology software which is available at Alien Dot Com. And you can use the Promo Code. Ap Fifteen for a fifteen percent discount on that software for more information about how to become a patron of the astrology podcast and help support the production of future episodes getting access to subscriber benefits like early access to new episodes or other bonus content. Good a Patriot. Dot Com slash astrology podcast.