20 Episode results for "Robert Menzies"

Now that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is dead, what next for ISIS? And 75 years of the Liberal Party

Between The Lines

28:51 min | 1 year ago

Now that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is dead, what next for ISIS? And 75 years of the Liberal Party

"Tuning it's always great to have you company on between the lines hype you having a Gripe now later in the program did you know that despite the lack of media coverage there's any the Tom Switzer here and thanks so much route to kill that one leader but it is important because Bughdadi who declared himself the callous he's a the uh a scholar of Islam and and a descendant of the Prophet Mohammed and created this terrorist group descendant of the Prophet He had the right pedigree for the position he grabbed in the sense that he was himself his body was mutilated by the blast but test results gave certain immediate and totally positive conventionally became a pro state and military and a very very organized very large criminal organization. Well I think it is important it's not going to defeat the ideology to defeat the man and it's not even going to defeat that one identification it was him now the death of Baghdadi comes about five years since he's Sunni jihadist movement self-declared calcified and yet bin Laden's dead highly stop the resurgence of the Suny jihadists known as Islamic state on President Obama's watch more the tunnel whimpering and crying and screaming all the way as our dogs chased him down he ignited his vest killing across parts of Syria and Iraq that at its peak was his lodges England remember that who can forget the widespread barbarism the videos last night the United States brought the world's number one terrorist leader to justice Abu Car al-Baghdadi is dead he had eight million people in the territory he controlled he made himself vulnerable by creating a proto state and perhaps that's accorded beheadings the mass executions the enslavement and raping of women so how significant is Baghdad's death now before you went into that up and this is the really important question can we really defeat the Sunni jihadists if Baghdad and Damascus now remember these Iranian met his end and this violent man will never murder again and yet contrary to prison Bush the cowboys Sunni insurgency can said he was the founder and leader of Isis the most ruthless and violent terror organization anywhere in the world he died after running into a dead end ah I can report to the American people and to the world the United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden the leader of Al Qaeda continue to murder and caused mayhem across Iraq and Syria remember the death of al Qaeda Osama Bin Laden in twenty eleven allies and discriminate against the Sunnis Jessica. Stern is a research professor of Boston. University's Parodies School of Global Studies She's Co author of the Isis became synonymous with Global Tara so the question here is to what extent does lessen the threat from Isis and the audiology represents it she aligned regimes in Iraq and Syria can we really defeat the Sunni jihadists if these regimes continued to mind very brutal and beheaded his quote enemies but body the headed mostly Muslims of course but that was a big part of his modus operandi beheading people and filming the beheading burning a Jordanian pilot alive in slaving mostly US Ossis the state of Tara Jessica Welcome to ABC Radio Thank you for having me now by not only ran Islamic citing Saudi Iraq and Syria inhumanly cruel now in the Washington Post in two thousand fifteen you warned quote it's going to take a great deal of ingenuity even to contain the Islamic state Oh and he he followed in the footsteps of Czar Collie his predecessor the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq who also was all this some context remember the death of the infamous Jordanian thug none as Abdul Musab Al Khali in two thousand and six now czar like daddy was more able than Osama bin Laden House are yes I do believe that he was incredibly brutal let alone defeated so how'd you count for the dramatic success of the coalition to defeat Islamic state great deal of Ingenuity and Y al Qaeda didn't attempt to establish the Caliphate as quickly as Bughdadi did will you sit in the New York Times this week station very very quickly that didn't happen and we still haven't defeated at we we took out the leader actually he committed not just a physical organization it's also virtual organization it's not just the physical organization in Z. But not only is he women turning them into sexual slaves he was just an incredibly cruel man I mean it almost Iraq in Syria it also has a number of so-called provinces or or willie yacht so yes the Caliphate the territory on terrorism for a long time and one of the things that I've seen over many many years is that Jihadi groups tend to splinter and they merge and it's no longer held by isis the territory the size of Britain you mentioned those problems because rename themselves and then they go they joined with their former enemies and then they they defeat their their competitors and I continues into more splintering of the movement around the world yes I think it probably will continue splintering I mean one of the things you know I've been working on yeah it's been quite a few years I think about four years and you're in your book you quote King Abdullah of Jordan who says the battle with office it's just a nonstop movement of this kind and even if we were to fully defeat isis and we're nowhere near that doesn't mean we be a generational fight it's only been four years I think some people were clearly hoping that we were going to be able to deceit thornton alright people isis posed a very significant threat in Iraq and Syria and there are still estimates between ten thousand and fifteen thousand fighters in the region so we absolutely have not defeated them but in general the threat Suni or minimal protection sectarian tensions civil war unemployed young men or underemployed young men those offices more from what twenty four hundred twenty sixteen back to an insurgency in Syria and Iraq can Baghdadi's death main that the momentum car accident especially if you fell to wear a seatbelt then to be attacked by Osmosis now that was in two thousand fifteen does that mean some of the risk factors that that have been identified and unfortunately there are a number of countries in the region that are suffering sector two Westerners is rather small quite insignificant in fact Jessica Stern is a research professor at Boston University who literally wrote the book on Isis Halcion well we we know that jihadi groups especially a jihadi insurgency of the kind that isis presented sectarian tensions Afghanistan would be another place where Isis has set up shop Nigeria Yemen exaggerated the threat that these Islamist jihadist pose to the broader Western world. You know I think that the whole point of terrorism is to it really thrives in illiberal democracy where there's an electoral democracy but no protection of minorities in this case it's called Isis the State of Sarah Jessica in the New York Times this week you wrote that many of the risk factors for the rise of Isis still remind suicide obviously under tremendous threat of the Caliphate has bring the flooded and they absolutely has been defeated but but this is very intentions or civil war and Syria of course it's a major one Iraq is beginning to heal but there still are basically this is this is the group that we thought we defeated with a surge and because those sectarian tensions the Suni full of Saddam how do they go about reintegrating these display Sudanese back into their local communities getting jobs bicyc- services because just feed it the Jihadi movement now you have written nothing with your colleague giant bigger in your book quote. US significantly more likely to die justified. Well I think it's the way it was done so precipitously that is deeply upsetting Dan yes I have to agree that this is a situation that it's not resolved I mean we thought we had defeated Al Qaeda in Iraq after President Bush's surge a two thousand and six two thousand seven Yep they came back you know changing the name for a while there it was people to try to reduce conflict to try to reduce humanitarian crises of the kind we see in in Syria and I think we really do try to do that ice seems to me to have made the situation at least for the immediate term significantly worse especially for the Kurds to be continued Jessica thanks so much for being on ABC Radio Thanks for Having Me Jessica Stone is professor of Global Studies at Boston University and Co author of Isis the the American military personnel who were working with Kurdish fighters it's not clear that that we're making the situation better over it's called the Islamic state of Iraq and they changed their name a few times and split with competition between leaders this is what we often see but ready to solve these problems and with Baghdad's death does that mean then that president trump's decision to move the US troops out of northern Syria is that now a long term but we I believe we clearly were working together well with with occurred and to suddenly abandon our ally tinted that continues doesn't that make it harder to defeat these jihadists to clearly export these Sunni grievances they definitely exploit suny grievances right it doesn't seem that we're very good at it we often get dragged into warfighting we'll give him these age all sectarian tensions and Washington's inability state of terror you're in our in in Oh terrorist groups exploited that kind of situation oh indeed and I think as I mentioned in mind action this is really the crux of the matter I mean can we more interested in either destroying suny towns as Assads dumb or subject guiding their rebellious Sunni populations rather than reconciling differences toe to the however at various stages in its history the Liberal Party has resembled nothing so much as I parole it's been written off time and again the franchise was still so strong the group was able to exploit that it's a very serious issue now for about two thirds of its existence and it supported consequential pulsa reforms that have helped Mike Australia bit applies any nation from the Brits run very good either whether I yeah I mean I do think that nation's sometimes are motivated to do the right thing to actually help handling of the water stralia policy ending sectarianism with funding for non government schools in the menzies era and of course opening up some of the new relationships in we defeat the Sunni jihadists so long as Baghdad and Damascus as I said the Iranian backed Shia along regimes in Iraq and Syria they a two guests jared Henderson is a former CEVA staff to liberal leader John How'd and is now executive director of the Sydney Institute he's author of Menzies Prevent Reemergence if you like surely the government's in Syria and in Iraq have to address the con of Sufi grievances that have been evidenced since the down now you recently interviewed John Howard Troy and he said the essential contribution the Liberal Party has made to Australia is quote progress St to me that the Liberal Party is the driver of National Progress and he talks about economic progress social progress and international progress things like the aiming its role and its wrought as having generated Australia's progress because they haven't often been that good at selling their own history or their country and jared well recently the liberal celebrated the seventy fifth anniversary the party has produced two of our nation's Gripe Promises Robert Menzies and John Howard is being in federal such as the Japan tried trees so it's a bold climb but it's one that's backed up by facts and I think how it also wants to wants to Liberal Party to start okay Sean Tom and again in the Post Nine Eleven Era Jessica that it's not really capable of doing these yeah that's true we're not very good at it I don't know that but such is the magic of politics the liberals all too often bounce back and confound the media experts and a mock the seventy fifth anniversary let's he from Labor leader Kevin Rudd is a columnist with the Australian he's also the author of biographies of both Paul Keating and Robert Menzies Troy welcome back to the show Hello Tom Three in the neutral very gently ground to a hole in no way a land the Golden Eye Kaminski's child but it's changing gradually I think the left is bitter civilians history his Prime Minister Paul Keating in parliament in ninety ninety two called the Liberal Party of Australia non teen forty four to nine ninety four welcome back to rn. Jerry hang thome and Troy Branston former speech writer ability and laying the foundations of our middle class character is he right look I think he is right but it is a narrative that will be strongly contested by the library boo party went to after he had retired in the summer of nineteen sixty six he was disappointed with Harold halt he thought he went from one disaster to another he thought the John Low inflation and very high employment I mean a lot of migrants who poking refers to as fodder I mean they had to head straight jobs it was a very vibrant action so a majority of Australians Authority misdoing unreasonable moving on Post Menzies Post nine hundred sixty six it was all people toy brands and mims eat menzies himself Lee's daughter Heather I'm witnessing the destruction of the party it's a leaderless rabble I've fees for the future now in your book on Robert Menzies you document meant how menzies became so disillusioned with his successes that it's unlikely voted liberal in the early to mid Nineteen Seventies. Yeah that's right Tom Lucky was disappointed with where the saw of politics our interview with John how I envied the full liberal Prime Minister for the seventy fifth anniversary and how it was very quick to argue I'm was ill disciplined and he's public and private law he thought billy make mom was simply a fool and by the time billy snedden was leading the Potty menzies was voting for the I'm the fifties sobers the sixties and you've got to look back at Australian Arts and culture in that time as as well as what was being written in what was being done this was a period of great and politician and Prime Minister with huge achievements but the economy and society was very different than than it is today critter these cultural wasn't it it was and the polls real lefty but this is lifting agenda comes out a university saying that was stupid in the fifties they wasn't many other attack on menzies was that Pochanis and capital markets and of course menzies supported the water stralia policy so any resisted attempts within his own cabinet to dilute the water Stralia policy so look as party doesn't subscribe to many of the things that menzies believed in you know he didn't balance the budget very often the economy was pretty tightly shackled regulated library product the other point to troy was that the Labor Party a much better job of defending its history not the Liberal Party is changing oh I think it's changing it's a lot better than it was twenty five years ago Credit Labor Party and thought the potty probably should merge with the country party would come with Malcolm Fraser any legacy in nineteen ninety-two Jared Hinson well I like Paul but that's just it's just a rant to fifties they were periods of high growth did return to the fall when he became liberal later but he s he he was he realized himself I think that he was from another age. I mean it's worth pointing out that Robert Menzies is the last prime minister bound Britain and bootstraps Khosro Creighton John Mandate which held us back for nearly a Prime Minister Paul Keating slamming the men's in the nineteenth century and he's Australian changing rapidly and in the interviews that are discovered and used in mobile he recognized that the time was

Isis Robert Menzies Iraq Syria al Qaeda Osama Bin Laden Baghdad Liberal Party Tom Switzer United States murder Suny Mohammed Sarah Jessica Prime Minister Paul Keating Baghdadi Prime Minister Obama Bughdadi
1956: Australia's pivotal year

Conversations

51:33 min | 1 year ago

1956: Australia's pivotal year

"This is an ABC. PODCAST The nineteen fifties in Australia has been a bit of a cultural battleground. The granddaughter these two former prime ministers remember it very differently. John Howard thinks of it as a golden age of security and prosperity but Paul Keating thinks that is a time when Australia were subjected to a near lethal dose of Fogy ISM. Neither vision is quite right of course but from the perspective of the twenty first century. Australia in the fifties seems like another country altogether nick. Richardson thinks the fifties was a time when the tectonic plates were moving destroyed was is positioning itself for enormous change. It is an author and academic and he says the pivotal year fifty six. This was the moment when the Olympics came to Melbourne but it was also the year when TV came to a stranger when the British conducted nuclear tests at Maralinga. And when Edna everage offered it to billet some of the athletes of the Olympic Games in her Mooney Ponds Hon. Nick Richardson's book is called Nineteen fifty-six the year Australia welcomed the willed. Welcome back Nick. Thanks very much Richard. You think it was a pretty lobby decade as opposed to the more conventional wisdom. That was a deadly dull. Dick I was that well. I think it's one of those classic things where we've kind of innocent spend a bit seduced by the cliche that nothing much happened when you revisit these things. I think it's worthwhile that you start to identify some of the seismic things that started. You know your phrase Tony Plights. I think will applied. There are things that are starting to grow. There are things that attacking route. Some of the changes that became consolidated in the years that followed the fifties was starting why back then and and and I think started to be noticeable. Not In fifty six. The central event fifty six was the Olympics in Melbourne. It's interesting that Australia even had the ambition to want to stage the Olympic Games in nineteen fifty six in Melbourne. How big a task was that from? From the perspective of now it was a huge task and I think there are a couple of things that we need to bear in mind when we think about this is the ambition was here. We were a country at the bottom of the globe We're now wanted kind of really conceded as being a potential host. We'd competed in every modern Olympic since ninety six but we'd never been bold enough have to put our hands up and say look it's outturn we're still at this stage in the late nineteen forties. When when making the beads to host the Games? Still Air travel is in its infancy. Do you have to come by ship if you WANNA come to Australia. That's a long long journey and it's a costly one as well and of course we are at the other end and all of the The northern athletics season when we're huddling around the fire The northern hemisphere cousins are actually basking in sunlight so there was some logistical climatic and BICYC- common sense reasons. Why Australia wouldn't have put his hand up at that stage? Who was the competition petition? For the fifty six Olympics well it was very interesting kind of selection and the US still felt that it had kind of a mortgage on these things. And especially in the I think probably in the aftermath of world to filter it kind of yes so there were a number of CDs from the US who who wanted who wanted to Hosted and those salaries as well and I think in the end became Melbourne's biggest rival right both southern southern hemisphere city. Yes right so they were the biggest rival and tell me about the splashy lunch. The Middle Committee put on at Mansion House in London during turned forty. I'd Olympics so we must of us are pretty familiar with the way the lobbying process for IRC delegates operates as ties back then. It was a little more modest but but nonetheless as directing intent and the the launch in forty eight. Australians took to basically we took food parcels the equivalent of food parcels to London and a selection of Lindemans wines to actually would The delegates end Olympic officials who gathered in London for the forty times says that said they would have been made and I suppose that would have been this is still the post war. Rationing Zhenhai rationing era. So strong may have been very welcome. Oh very well. And then this sense of logic and bounty which walk through the door. Australian contingent was the head to from what I can gather so I walked in with the Horn of plants. Have with this with Ozzy projects with the doc- read that was being said inside the Lindemans raid was was one that people actually were kind of developed. A bit of a taste for really will await. I've well in one I so you delegate actually petitioned the Australian delegation for more well. That's very nice really that much it was like I wonder about that. That doesn't Jibe with my memories of Australia one. At that time. which was it was a bit rough and radios article? But maybe we making better stuff than ny realize. Well look if there's anyone out there who's got a bottling checkout donges close for another rainy day so in the lead up to the decision about two who wants to host. The Olympics was going to be a big meeting in Iran. Tell me how the water strider policy policy became an issue just before that meeting on the physician aboard the Olympics. One of the interesting things was that the the widest policy was in a sense. The unspoken problem the Melbourne beat had to confront it came roaring out of the blocks in the immediate prelude to beat when the Filipino parliament. accused the strains of hypocrisy ivor. What was effectively trying to lobby them for the vote? In the face of turning down The application of a naturalized American Filipino born soldier to enter Australia so the Filipino parliament took great umbrage at this instead. This is the policy at its worst. This is hypocrisy that Lisa silence. Now want us for them. When they're actually denying one unavowed former citizens applies in their contract? Or perhaps they had a point. Nick I did rich and everyone's scrambling when someone spoken the Filipino parliament. Like that well. The interesting thing was listening. No well strangely enough silence across the land because the Filipinos invited a delegation allegation of Australian parliamentarians to come to Manila to discuss this issue. And no one can that interested. So so was the war in issue behind this far as the Philippines role in the war in defending Fighting against the Japanese and and Australia as well well well. Certainly some of the The rhetoric in the Filipino. Filipina parliament was exactly around. That was that strategy. I wouldn't have been saved but for what the Filipinos the pain is deep in the war and of course the the secondary part about that which was the also the sleeping giant in the discussion was Japan as well Japan. Well this brings us to the meeting itself in Rome when the decision was taken to award the host city status for the fifty six Olympics head of the vote proceed. How how close was that? So the IT turned out to be the closest bead vote in the history of the Olympics. It millman one by one vote and the intriguing trading thing about that was that it emerged lighter that the key vote kind from Japanese delegate. Why the the Japanese delicate voted for strike? This is never kind of been made explicit. My suspicion is that once the Americans can he dropped out of the the final Candidature he felt that there was some soft diplomacy Around around giving it to Melbourne. And I think in many ways it was probably a shrewd move if that was his motivation. bear Aaron minded. It's between Melbourne and bunnies. I think he probably thought that on balance was a better outcome for Japan and Japan had wanted to have the Olympics speaks for itself indeed laid up to the Second World War. Of course the war putting into net. What was Japan status within the Olympic hating? They weren't at that stage. Die Die General Macarthur. Of course Japan was still under occupation in general macarthur who was hit of that occupation bicycling given his approval for Japan to starts re entry into the Olympic movement hints. Met Souso Night Nagy. Who was the Japanese? IRC delegate who voted for Milton. He's that was why he was in rhyme but they were still some years away from actually rejoining as a competitor so I wonder then that vital four strategy was maybe Japan's expression of Japan's Hope that bygones be bygones that that certainly I think A valid interpretation of the circumstances and ready to reince the world yes. Stray wanted to return to the world as as in day. I think it's a very valuable comparison I think from that point of view. Melvin it represented a bitter expression of that sentiment than than the alternative but had it a strident feel about Japan and competing in the fifty. Six Games Games. Well that was the thing and one of the really interesting things about this was in the immediate aftermath above Melbourne. Winning the bead there was a an outpouring of hostility stability towards the Japanese athletes coming to Australia. L- from politicians through two former members of you know the the Returned Services League and the people the Santa condensed much and and the morale way Winkle remembered the the slaughter of the nurses in as as well and there was a huge hugely passionate denunciation of but also that that very real suspicion that they it was Something that you know. The Japanese had not changed their character or indeed Making enough expiation forward occurred the Germany Germany had been readmitted to the competitor nations. Hadn't it not that I can. So was there a question as to whether the White Australia policy would even and allow Asian athletes into the country to participate in the game. Well some some smart journalists internationally rise that very question in the aftermath of that and Australia actually had to soft pedal about all of those things. The evidence in the immediate aftermath of this was not promising because Australia actually Didn't support Japan re entering the Davis Cup tennis competition for example not in fifty But in the period between then and fifty six attitude started to soften then there was the question about Melvin itself the general drabness and stuffiness of Melbourne in the nineteen fifties. Where were they worried about that? All they were in fact even one of the Melvin beat team Harold Luxton in who been born and bred in Melbourne said. I love the city but it's deadly dull and it was because you know the first Cappuccino machine didn't arrive seven to nine fifty four. There was the restaurant. Scene was very lactate Econo- cosmopolitan flair. And perhaps most tellingly of all there was this dreadful six o'clock swill which of course you couldn't get a drink in Melbourne after six o'clock at night. Yeah that'd be a lot of people who don't remember have any knowledge of Swill was an institution. Can you just explain how that works. Well so you mean coming from work. Knocking offered foot four or five would then have an hour of drinking before the pub closed and it became a swivel. Because they would try. Hi doing just as much as they could be four. The the bar closed all the so. I said what does it look what the public hearing that there are some look. It's interesting because my my. My uncle ran a pub in Melbourne Years ago when the six o'clock will pub called the Royal Mile and my father told stories about him. pigging the pound nuts onto the clothes lan because I was so shocked with so that was the WII could draw about so suddenly for an hour and a half will thereabouts published like full of men in the front bow beer everywhere. It's what what's schooners being l.. Potus they were just being knocked back. And then what. They stagger out at six and try to find their way home right. So that's still implies in Nineteen fifty-six still employed fifty six. Oh with this with the Olympics looming the there was a referendum held in March nineteen fifty-six just to see what everyone thought and with a view towards hopefully overturning it so that people could get a drink lighter after six o'clock especially our overseas visitors who supposedly lining up to come to millman games right elegant Italians expecting to be able conduct McCain power or something in a cafe and instead they found this is GonNa everyone's fraud and they're going to encounter the six o'clock swill might be able to get a drink after. So when the Victorian Premier Henry Balti- put that vote. Should we get rid of six o'clock. Closing time to the People Victoria how to divide guy. It was extraordinary. The initial Stra Paul that some of the papers did suggested that it was a done deal. The referendum was over the line but out in the suburbs. The story was radically different front. And in fact only six of the states sixty six electorates voted yes to in the six o'clock swill so it was defeated. It did fated roundly and resounding who who was in opposition Who who was in opposition to to liberalizing the entering the churches and And they had they had some experience of this and night campaigned fairly regularly to prevent this becoming This change taking place So what they were once again very active and very certain that they would Their position would would be my time and I think one of the key. The elements was what we're seeing here is a a very broadening of the suburban experience for a Lotta People in Melman and A lot of women in suburbs were making a statement about. I'm sorry My husband is not going to have access to to further alcohol after six o'clock because he needs to be at home with his family. Come in that. That was a long standing. I suppose we also forget how much Strenuous much drinkers in those days. One day than than they are today there was just a different culture drinking around around and mile. Companionship unshipped matchup and all those things. Yeah I think it was and I think part of that was very much the postal. A thing where you know Maine in particular who'd come back from war they they. We're very used to mile. Company Exclusive Mile Company somewhat. Traumatized somewhat traumatized absolutely And I think there was a there was a certain amount out of that fit into all of that and you know I think they were still learning to cope with the idea of what family life actually looked like because their fathers certainly wouldn't. I don't want people who were going for Sunday. Drives too often. Have at the hotel. Leah's on this this fifty we will I tell you were were at that stage. Really Dare I site full bottle on On supporting the end of the six o'clock swill because they actually believed that opening up the hours meant that they could actually get access to a different kind of drinker and that of course represented a A good good commercial outcome for them. Ninety fifty six was all said. The New South Wales legalized the parties. I think that's amazing. How far ahead of the game was newsouth byles? I think it's interesting. Isn't it because my understanding is there was no other constituency in the world other than Las Vegas. Goose that had legalized porkies by Nineteen fifty-six so he's South Wales was certainly pretty much ahead of that game. How did this plans at the end of the war? That was going on at the time between the clubs and Watson's clubs and pubs and this was something that was a bit of a revelation intimate. How willing this kind of discussion became Because of course there there'd Baynes some open tolerance of puppies seen in clubs for years dining back to the end of the nineteenth century that will conceded bicycling as providing a source of revenue that provided some extra support for the clubs CBS to exist in their communities but the pubs of course would lead to have that benefit so as a result the pubs started to feel pine of the growth of of the clubs. Now Bear in mind clubs actually going from something like Fifty hard in nine hundred and three to something like six hundred fifty by the nineteen eight fifty S. So that I've I've grown throughout New South Wales at huge right. The pubs are becoming rundown the the missing climbed till they don't know what the future looks like. So Ah various stages as this move to legalizing. The parke's came around the the hotels actually hired private investigators to go around around the clubs to observe how much money and how frequently those poker machines for being used right. And so that. That's become a bonanza for state governments texts that they might from ear it is. Yeah Jeff Kennett us to turn around the pretty much Victorian economy and denied his as well. Yeah and in in fifty six. It was introduced in New South. Wales th the club has had to pay a tax to the State Hospital Fund. So that was that was what they're quid. Eight pro quo was at the time so there's always been good cause behind uh pie commissioning slot right. Yeah at at the time. I'm all sorts of interesting. Things started happening around the package. Didn't they at the one I think it's fair to say I think that's faiths I and I think those of us who've been on the planet for a while probably wouldn't wouldn't be surprised that when you start to talk about and wiser making money that they may be the opportunity for the criminal element to find its way into the pitcher and indeed I did and here in particular and one of the Great Crime Stories of Australian Twentieth Century is the shock. I'm a EH. And what is the shock. I'm well it's the discovery of Of A a an arm in a shark of I think it's off could you bitch and and that belonged to a somewhat shady character called Smith whose son Raymond Smith became integral to is the pokey movement in New South Wales in the fifties. How was an arm? How was an of this man inside a shock? Look I don't know the full contested story so full data but needless to say it would. It probably really fits into the annals of Something akin to some kind of gang land. Do so I think this is like a win in Melbourne. It's on standardizes. The Lord's Diet but they're pulling gangsters arms out of shocks you got. The car would become increasingly popular by fifty six changing their kind of Warren. Ah Straighten Lot look. The cow was was an extraordinary thing and it was obviously. We had started our own automotive industry by that stage Nelson. Great Pride being taken in that but It was actually so central what we did that. in terms of the high purchases which was a new way of being able to afford things at that time so much of that high perch across the country was was being deployed to Vicha. So it made the suburbs possible to shove as possible but it also had lots of consequence in terms of recreation In terms of information. Because is it clearly had some impact on people buying Afternoon newspapers really well For example a lot of especially Tribes people who are working Shift to modify court the tram to and from work perfect opportunity to pick up a pipe. especially the Milne Herald denied is From train stations and tram stops. Suddenly Thi- were driving to work They weren't To and from work I wouldn't necessarily needing afternoon paper so th there was that kind of impact as well. The radio started. I think to become a lot more significant in people's slobs 'cause I were able to Hearing more of that then relying on newspapers So and the other key thing was that the notion of the family being together for the Sunday Dr going out into the hinterland going to visit family and friends and of course. It meant that you didn't need to live around the corner from your mom and dad ahead because if you had a car you visit them on Sunday anyway so you could you could on Sunday win. There was nothing I've been you could drive up at the Adelaide hills or the Blue Mountains or the dandenongs or whatever and And and do all of those things could because bear in mind. Of course. There's no Sunday papers. The is no Sunday football. The only thing that you've got really going for you is to make your own fun and the CAA HA enabled lots of strengths to make their own fun. It's not well remembered. Bit Edna everage. She was just simply Mrs Edna. everage Barry Humphries manhood in her debut the before the Olympics but it was Olympics. Polite it was and it was in the December if not in fifty five win. When Edna appeared appeared on stage with someone known to I think a lot of people nor area and the focus of the sketch which was actually about in hosting Olympic visitors at her home in humorous straight municipal? We were there certain What what? We're EDNA reservations about the hosting athletes. But there's certain kind of athletes will more suitable than others. You send they were and she wasn't. She felt that the Decoration of home at humorous straight was suitable but there was some limitations that she could put around those who supposed to come come through a door thankfully at the last moment she was saved by the arrival potentially of some relatives from Tasmania who would take up the spare room and prevent her from following allegations to peak visited now this was pretty straightforward dreadful with these days but what impact did that have. Audiences saw a character like an average put in front of them. Well it was interesting because she went Dan very well in Melbourne. There was a kind of an instant since that she was identifiable. Barry Humphries was warned that not to take a Sydney because they wouldn't get the joke. WHOA Sydney did get the joke size? Successfully that Edna had a very very good appearance in Sydney and then came back to Melbourne at the end of fifty-six to reprise the the sketch all over again Barry Humphries and created the character wall on who'll with lawler doing production shakespeare production around country towns. You just sort of improvised at the back at the the tour bus I think to Venice. That's right and this was also the year that summer of the seventeenth doll by lauder had its premiere as well in a year. Yeah I ah. It's still a remarkable path and removing. It's a beautiful apply even today. It's two half think it's a lovely play. What about the accents? The accents of the actors in in actually having to sound like like kind cutters and an ordinary working class people. This is the interesting thing that up until Summa uh-huh seventy dollars so much Australian theatre had been dominated by English actors. Who would touring? Whether it'd be alleviated civil phoned Ike. Ralph Richardson All people or Australians. Trying to sound English but some of the seventeenth dolls directed Johnson and actually said you have have to send more Australian and the actors themselves of which Rilo was was one actually were coached in sounding more strident. Why would they be taught to sound us right? Talk to be taught to stay inside the made the point he said. Look someone who's a kind cutter sands different from someone who lives in suburban Australia. So think about how the different sounds. I wonder you know what it was like for that district. The idea that Australians would see so this is straying seeing themselves in the Cultural Mirror. Yes in some ways for the very first time in data and oh I think this is. What's really fascinating about this time? Is that that suddenly the not only discovering their voice in a literal sense but they're discovering it in a metaphorical sense as well this conversations with Richard sidelines podcast broadcast. The Hollywood movie of a town like Alice was premiered in Nineteen fifty-six Tara strain was that that film anyway Nick not very very Nah it did have paid attention it and Of course finch wasn't born in Australia but it spent his formative former diffuse here And he was supposed to since the most identifiable Australian character in the story line But very little of it was shot in Alice. No Springs on a couple of minutes of it which was kind of interesting to a couple of minutes. Yeah don't know very long at all And it was indicating to a lot of studio seines and end in fact a lot of the story. The original story that was written in the book by novel should which actually does explore a lot more of the Australian landscape and and the idea of Australia actually never mind onto the film. So it's a it's a pretty limited exposure to the country book banning was still a thing in a stretch. Oh fifties who wasn't the decided whether a book should be banned or not. There was some some We might call them nine with because I did have an impact. Perhaps faceless is the the best expression instances who would be given the task of of coming through particular titles. And I mean you know there were a number of them. That paps wouldn't surprise people being banned like later and and some of that there was some other one's one of my favorite was The the good housekeeper she's Kayla's and curvy and leaves. I was just down the corridor words. Perfect I'm but the one that construct may nineteen fifty-six wars catcher in the Rye which had already bane released in the US some years earlier and had come to Australia in a box of books to a young man in rural Victoria. who had vincent these by a meeting in the sites and the eagle-eyed Saints A had spied this book and plucked it out of the box and read it and although at some point thinking it had some literary merit also found it somewhat lascivious and verging on blasphemous blasphemous blasphemous? Right and so for that was abandoned. It was abandoned is trying to catch in the catcher in the Rye so so it wasn't just the kind of the the rice sort of pulp. Novels wasn't so and you know this is clearly a serious work fiction we will not. We must have studied it at high school And the character of Holden Holden Caulfield is one of the great characters of Twentieth Century Literature and out of some of those popular Some of the names of the hotel wife. Yeah that's a good one and road fluky year road floozy even have never copy of things. That's that's very very cosmopolitan around. That's what I hear so so it wasn't just six six or salaciousness that was banned. It was trumping ideas or blasphemy was was banned. It was censored troubling ideas. I think this is one of the the kind of the social forces at work that we've seen kind of the push and the pull of these things that are coming because the other interesting thing about this is the Kinsey reports released in fifty three. Was that released here. It was released to it is an epidemic was and the Australia Marriage gones council with Australian women's weekly four months tour of Australia in Nineteen fifty-six and and concluded that a lot of Australian women were becoming resistant to the idea of chastity. Oh Wow that was reported in the women's weekly in those days. Yeah Yeah so did the. Do we know what any impact would have had in Australia into like once particularly women. Read the Kinsey report into Female sexuality there it changed on. It's hard to gauge the the conclusion that was made by the people who did the form to it was that perhaps Kinsey was having an effect. And you know it's hard to know how deeply those observations and conclusions from the original Kinsey report. Put it into the suburbs but clearly there it was a there was an attitude that was changing net bear in mind a couple of other big social things were occurring partly because of the wall but partly they were becoming more aw entrenched was there were there was a significant increase. In number of women working and the marriage right had actually started to taper off a bit really and and meanwhile there's also women being left behind in the morning days out of suburbs with the libraries having some some of them have labour-saving devices the arrival of labor saving devices. Yeah yeah that was one thing but then on the other hand is the kind of crushing dullness. I suppose and on way that comes with just sitting in the burbs with much to do until the kids come home or the husband comes. This is which is why you want your husband home at six rather than any time. Patrick White's novel tree of man was published in nineteen fifty six. Now that one of a huge in the United States didn't have like a rave reviews. Ri- refused critically acclaimed. How was it reviewed the Australian call it a little differently little differently? Yeah One an end. One of out highly regarded poets Alec Hope and reviewed it And for the Sydney Morning Herald and it's become kind of somewhat notorious sort of review and I think Alex was kind of if somebody's light of Quite challenged by but he referred to it must really as verbal sludge O.. Rien right bitchiness them. Look I don't know I mean I think what we see. It was kind of innocence compounded by the review in the IJ age. which basically said this is? This is a novel unlike any other Australian novel suggesting that that was a bad thing. Run run better about policy into the reason why they hate each other. So much is because the stakes are so long. Look that that could be at. We're here but I actually think in some ways it's it might have been an underlying. I think how how unique what's achievement was well. Literature was was a report from Patrick Watt and several others was was reasonably quiet industry. phys painting I don't know. Do we have a have a better decade than the not Look the painting was was extraordinary and one of the really interesting things about this. And I think what illustrates you point. Perfectly is the Olympics. Also ahead an ox festival and two of those components were visual was visual arts and this is one of the other ones was literature. The literature one was very much the poor relation of the Hollick sauce and it didn't actually even didn't recognize any published literary work in Australia after nine. Eight forty but the artwork was was fantastic. You know we've had John Bracknell and draws dot. We had all the old times. Some of which had actually been exhibited in London in nine fifty three and the art critic John Birger had actually written a piece for me engine are reviewing it said. Here is the stirrings. If not the flowering of the Australian voice on canvas whole new way of looking at a stray straight land skype elvis US release heartbreaker Tillman Nineteen fifty-six did did did that. Make an impact in a strategy was ready applying. It didn't apply it. You know we talked about banning books something supposedly very lascivious about the way Mr presently moved his hips and And there was something that might have in. Fact caused a moral panic if we'd allowed too much of that going so there was some radio stations at boycotted Tila one of the One of the great vocal artists in Australia at the time was in the American Co Johnny. Ri- Who these days people would kind of find amusing in terms of his vocal gymnastics monistic? He was kind of built. Lock tuning fork and income had destroyed vibrating vocal style. It was kind of wild Michael. Yeah he was like do that. Sort of stuff and extra syllables get Ri- yeah right. He would yeah and the DJ's who actually broke the record on aid to show that they had no time for this kind of rock and roll. I hated it so much on and tell me about what happened when he arrived in Australia in in came onto a well he came out he in fact was mobbed at Mascot airport and his. I think I've got this right. He's Shantung suit was torn right and he it had to be scalded off in an ambulance and and basically said Mousetrap in fans are so dear to me and you know this white make any difference. It's the way I feel about them. There was a rock around. The clock came out Blackboard jungle came out and suddenly we had the juvenile delinquent phenomenon in Australia. took the form of bodies and Jeeze as they were called an extra wherever they were they hanging out well. This was interesting thing that was speaking of moral panics. There was a sense that you know an I suppose one of the things. It intrigued me about this. Is that you know. We spent a lot of time in the past few years wondering about teenage gang so then back in the day in Nineteen fifty-six these bodies in witches who were supposedly Sinister force across all our communities but particularly in Victoria And to the point where Victoria place actually had its own body squad what there was A. Ah there was a body squalor. There was a budgie squad approve of dedicated police who would go out and make sure that the bodies Jeez behaved and there was a certain amount of physical physical force applied to the reasoning process Between the between the budgets and the Bungee squaws. If you're an officer would you identify yourself as such which sort of up the bodies on Flinders Street station say that detective Nick. Richardson squad. What he done that down to forensics I I suspect they were known because I did have a nickname and they were called the Purple People Betas because purple was over? His favorite color got the the Olympics. Were almost upon us and at this is at the same time when TV was beginning in Strasbourg. Why did it takes a loan for stray to get TV? There was a certain resistance to it at the highest US levels And when I mean hospital on main the Prime Minister Robert Menzies. He was I think he was mindful of What how would would present him and how it would present Politicians in particular. He didn't have a great regard for it he'd seen it up close in the US and didn't particularly unlock it I think also one of the key critical things was that he established that very warm and longstanding relationship with Australians is through his radio broadcasts which cold forgotten paypal broadcasts so. He felt that there was he'd already had some reports and TV. Might well in some ways diminish that or indeed compromise it or indeed preventing from actually being able to revisit that kind of relationship root reports stats Keith. Murdoch was pushing for television. Yeah he he was and in fact There are a couple of key people including a guy called Colin. biddle who who was who was in the employ of of case who was very Keen on pushing photography and in fact lobbied Menzies Very vigorously about this to the point where he said Australia would be told the prime minister style become a hillbilly nation. If we didn't embrace dave on that's what to the trick so so uh-huh TC and nine was the first station to broadcast in Nineteen fifty-six with Bruce Famously sang would evening and welcome to television Like that The time but was anyone watching the citizens trying to sits but not very many and in fact you know a lot of people are of a certain vintage will remember their exposure to. TV consisted of turning up outside some electrical highways store in the mind straight which they windows would be full of? TV sits and people standing outside outside looking at this magical innovation through the shop window. So Robert Menzies had agreed when the British government approached him to The proposal to conduct nuclear tests in Australia and stunned in the outback. In Merrill Linger in particularly strenuous note was going on at the time was that was that publicized was kicked. A secrets you wear eight was it was moderately well But especially in the early days it was very much pitched as US doing the five. Andy isn't this a wonderful thing that the decided to I have Host the nuclear event that started to change over time. How much care was taken to make sure aboriginal people were not the blast side not care at all was it? We think about it now. We look at it now and of course In the ninety ninety five row commission there was a very stringent analysis of all of this but it was at at best Kayla's at worst gross negligence. I suppose those ones who aboriginal people who were moved I. The homeland with the traditional ends was suddenly completely uninhabitable blasted wastelands. They were the the challenge there were there. Were two two men who are basically given the challenge of trying to I hi identify. How many indigenous? Australians were actually within the the blast area so we're talking about thousands of kilometers is here to mean given that responsibility to identify how many and also to try and find out where they were. And and thirdly trying to stop them being exposed to all of this was an impossible task two decades for this to come out in the edit. It did but once indeed it was revealed to be the shine Filipa Lipa side. That that it was the Olympics were said to happen. What November in fifty six? That's right the Hungarian team left Hungry on their way to come to Australia and it was only when I got Saddam that could read the pipes and see that the Soviets had invited crushing Hungarian Revolution. An the awful bloodshed on the streets of Budapest. What did they do when they were discovered this? Do they consider going home again or defecting to Australia. What affected victim this news? It was devastating for them. Because of as you SI- when I had left the homeland there was that sense of optimism that in fact the the Soviet rule had actually been IVA turned and that there was a new era about to take place in Hungary and of course so this this struck them as crushing news is when they are often down so it fade into the general General appreciation of what happens next ext and This Hungarian artist handles misery also a sculptor who goes to visit them at the Olympic Village. The Hungarian Tame Name and and writes lighter. How depressed and defeated the team? Felt so this leads the one of the greatest kind and of non-political wellness quad for the military battlefields of the of the Cold War which was in the Olympic Pool in Melbourne. Yes and this is the famous water polo holly match between Hungary and the Soviet Union known as the blood in the water match wearing fact there was there was clearly some fees agitation and between the two teams which led to one of the Hungarians of into door being escorted out of the pool with blood streaming. Danny's doing to provoke Caserta was there. Was this stuff going on under the surface of the water. I think I think that would be fair conclusion. Richard and there was a there was clearly a bit of What we we would call sledging? That was probably going on But clear you know to be honest. The feelings in in this were fundamental. You know. It wasn't questions. Sounds about abilities or sporting prowess this was really about. Who who these people were where they came from and who they owed fealty to deep hatred should there in that moment where you're quite right but nonetheless? These games are remembered. The fifty six games remembers. The friendly games is that is that true were they games of goodwill they were games games goodwill at night I think how significant achievement at ease. It's worth remembering that this there were there were seven countries. That boycotted the Melanie. Millie picks is the first time they'd been a boycott of an Olympics. Why did they boycotted partly because of what happened in Hungary really what? We're going to participate. What was that? Who was that the Soviet Union and and of course China pulled out because Taiwan took part? So there was that they they were from the start. There was the saints that this was This was politically compromised games. Two weeks later we emerged with this wonderful prism to look at it through and and almost universal acceptance the that it had in fact been the friendly games. How how much was Betty Catholic responsible for that certainly? Might Australians feel a lot better about things when she won three gold And obviously you know. It was our best Olympics in terms of performances. But I think it was. It was more than that. I think it was. It was the sense of spirit. It was the sense of Goodwill it was. It was the why. The community rallied around and I mean it was equally true here in Sydney in two thousand but I think back then in fifty six zero something special about about what could I went to a track and field event in the two thousand Sydney Olympic Games and Australia and got knocked out of the high jump. I think it was some at whole section of the crowd Sunday. We've decided independently. It seems that we're going to extend and so. This enormous cheer went up for Kazakhstan. I think it'd kind of delighted and confused. The athletes was it. It was it was interesting because one of the people. I spoke to for the book whose photographer young photographer at the time. Bruce had he remembers at The theatening die. When the the Russian athletes led Amir Kuts won his first middle and cooks was Was I had this withering Stamina and and burst has to speed where he just saw off his opponents of five thousand meters ten thousand minutes. Bruce Remembers taking the photograph of cuts and the M. C.. J. Rausing is it is one to applaud this man's achievement and Bruce said he should the hairs on the back of my neck is standing up just telling you about it. She said it was an extraordinary and remained so aside from the Hungarian issue. If that's the word for it was their attitude that whatever we were feeling about the called war that those feelings would be suspended at the time so like we could cheer Soviet athlete. That's that was sort of unusual for the for the time. It was one of the interesting things that we don't necessarily appreciate is that. Australians silence never seen athlete before a lot of the a lot of these people kind of look like us. You know it wasn't the saints that way was saying people who are radically addict different to the person next door so there was that there was a bit of a revelatory element to the Olympics for a lot of Australians. I think who who turned up. Then there was what I thought I would actually like to call it. The miracle of the closing ceremony fifty six Olympics and there was there was a letter written by an Australian called John Ian Wing and he was descendant of Gold Rush Chinese migrants to Australia and he wrote to the to the Olympic Committee and he does extremely that. I'm just GONNA quote from it here. He said you talked about the in the march closing ceremony. He said the March I have in mind is different than the one during the opening ceremony and will make these games even greater during during the march there will only be one nation war politics nationality will all be forgotten. What more could anyone wants? The whole world could be made as one nation. What what you can do it in a small way no teams to keep together and there should be no more than two teammates together? They must be spread evenly. They must not much but walk. Walk Freely and wave to the public it will show the whole world. How friendly astrid it is? That's a good idea. And it worked worked beautifully. Read a letter. This amazing things can actually happened in this. Couldn't they could happen. This the letter actually got to the head of the Olympic Committee and within a matter of hours. He's briefing his shift emissions in saying let's do this and why see see. We can all off about the fifties into strategy but a really good idea came up he s and it went straight to the top county went. We're GONNA do this. It's like the Commission for the Opera House. The idea can throw this way GonNa GonNa do this. That happened in the fifties as well in stride yet. Teed let's not forget that and let's compared to perhaps the more elaborate thon bureaucracy that we confront now various sporting bodies awarded funds for various things different processes different prices today. Nicosia's Yes yes. So at at the world light what had seen from Melbourne is deed. There was a few NIGGLING reservations. There was one English reporter who thought that Australians had not given the UK sufficient UK athlete sufficient. Do which I thought was Really really yeah really As as if happening at the center of our country to the nuclear bomb wasn't wasn't approval. Enough they were feeling tender after the Suez debacle. Well indeed they were and and and Robert Menzies had been integral in trying to broker up solution into that but in the end suicide. kind of been the the finale for British Prime Minister Anthony Eden and signalled in many ways The the end of British and American sort of wanted Britain to say it that way to feeling a little bruised anyway but putting putting him assaulted. Ha Ha it looks really good. It was there was a sense that he was something that had been achieved. Perhaps against the odds and it had been it had been enormously successful. The weather had been good the standard of competition at Bain good And although the Soviet Union had topped the middle tally ahead of the US there was still well Since that across the board the the spirit of the Games had been celebrated to the point where the president ivory suggested that he could he should win the Nobel Peace Prize. Oh what really. Yeah what because of the success of the fifty six so he thought he should get the Nobel monette. I suppose the other thing too is that Australians then now really really loves sport really ought to well I think this is is kind of the instances in the twentieth century way. We we clearly demonstrate that with turning up we were there you know we engaged we absorbed and we took some lessons away from it as well. Well that's it was there as well. That's an back to back to normal or something China. Well something has changed whether it was being formally recognized. My view is that there was. It'd say trying some forces that couldn't be stopped and whatever. Some people Abel Thought Australia was actually on a on a journey and that fifty six Olympics were here was integral to that journey. Credit to speak with Nick. Nick thank you so much. Thanks Richard Nick. Richardson is the author of nine hundred fifty six year Australia. Welcome to the world. I'm Richard Fidler. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to a podcast of conversations with Richard Fidler for more conversations interviews. Please go to the website. ABC Dot net that AU slash conversations discoverable great a._B._C.. podcasts live radio and exclusives on the A._B._C.. Listen APP.

Australia. Olympics Melbourne United States Richard Nick Melbourne Richard Soviet Union Nick Richardson Edna everage Japan Paul Keating London Lindemans Olympic Committee Hungary Robert Menzies John Howard Japan
Duterte's coronavirus response, plus Australian PMs and power

Between The Lines

29:07 min | 11 months ago

Duterte's coronavirus response, plus Australian PMs and power

"This is an ABC podcast. Hi there and welcome to between the lines. This is Tom Switzer. And I hope. You're having a kid home and siphon sound now. Australia has head thirty prime ministers since independence as a nation state. In nine hundred one. Thirty what do you think they will have in common well? Twenty nine of them Ca Scott. Morrison of course is still in power. Share this a marked reluctance to relinquish power and strong. Not just the cameras. A wally regarded as a political coup capital of the world. How often have we heard that other factors are apply and a new book seeks to tell us more about the manner of their departure? Stay with this for my chat with Norman Johnson. And I'll have a very interesting question for Norman and you listen for that but first to the Philippines where the wildly popular but controversial President Rodrigo deter. Type he's come up with the world's most severe penalty for breaking crossovers. Locked down the mine. All of Luzon has been in lockdown since mid much with no one allowed outside without a mask and deter tie has issued orders for the military and national police to shoot dead. Anyone caught violating restrictions or causing trouble sheep Dade Cranky. Has He finally gone too far? Or is this just more of the populist hardliner that has made him so popular joining us now from New York is Sheila Coronel. She's a veteran Filipino. Journalist and professor of Investigative Journalism at the Columbia Journalism School. She's also author of a very important article on deter tie in a recent issue of Foreign Affairs magazine in New York. Sheila welcome to between the lines. Thank you now. Let's start with detainees response to Corona virus and this should to kill order is accepted by the Filipino voters. As a reasonable government response I think that Filipinos have been used to charities very violent language in rhetoric. They don't know how quite how to calibrate. What is real and what is not and the power of territories. Language is precisely this ambiguity. He's able to exercise power by showing people that he is capable of anything. So people are scared they follow the shoot to kill order may or may not be neutral. There have not been many people killed. There's just one person who was shot at for violating the quarantine but certainly twenty thousand people have been arrested in current and began in mid March. So Philip many futile will disagree that we need discipline. In order to make this quarantine effective and as the one in charge they may they may object to the harshness of it but they also know that some sort of disciplined isolation and cloudy at this difficult time. It's necessary okay. Let's be clear. He's approval writings. Mopey getting close to ninety percent which is just extraordinary but he's popularity wrists on his promise to protect the people and keep him safe. So do you see this forest test vs legitimacy more so than it is inside Western countries? I think so I think many Filipinos accepted very violent war on drugs because they felt that. Pdf's governments have not been able to contain the drug trade in this this the problem with the corona virus in the pandemic is that it is not a purely law enforcement issue. I mean neither was drunk. Great but let's not get into that. It is also the issue of how prepared the government has been to deal with health and social economic repercussions of this. And so far. What you've seen is that the government has been willfully unprepared. Millions of Filipinos have no means of livelihood. Local governments in the national government have not been able to mobilize the food and other aid that they need. I don't know how poor communities are going to last. So far there's been a patchwork very valiant efforts by companies by communities by some local governments to bring aid to those who need them most. But certainly there's not enough and this will have an impact on on detective Sir Sort of rhetoric that he has strong leader but he also cares for people. Okay what about the capital Manila? It's in lock down. But it's a city famous for its slums. What impact is the lockdown having in the slums the like everywhere else in the world where you have very concentrated numbers of poor people very large numbers of poor people in very concentrated locations where social distances impossible these slum communities not only vulnerable to the contagion but most of these people are not wage? Earners they earn money through the informal underground economy and their means of livelihood transport street rending Con Construction have have been completely halted so these people are living hand to mouth. They even in the best of times the these people earn barely enough to keep body and soul together and these are not the best of time Sheila Coronel. She's from Columbia Journalism School and she's one of the world's leading experts on the Philippines. And we've been talking about President to attorney and how he's responded to the corona virus crosses a Sheila talking about he's shoot to kill order in your recent foreign affairs article which I enjoyed very much. You tell the story of the Turtles Final Year in Law School Manila. He shot a classmate who made fun of his thick accent. Tell us more yes. So do. Tattoo is comes from the provincial elite. And so has he speaks her. This very sick provincial accents. When he went to school in Manila his classmates were making fun of him. And apparently at one point I just got tired of it and shot one classmate you know not fatally but just just because yeah but in a big debate in the law school where he studied and they decided the going to make him graduate. But he's not going to March graduation. That's how determined to ended up going. Taking the shot. He recovered icon target. Yes I'm being detected intended to teach a lesson and I believe he learned that lesson. Okay well he's term as president ends. I think it's twenty twenty two so to us time and under the constitution. He's not allowed to seek reelection. He must be looking to find a successor who can uphold these legacy protecting for future criminal charges. What about his daughter? Well he's sort of a mirror image a female female younger do. They're just she. She's very tough but she's her own person to you know she's not just her father's lackey she's independent minded. But she said she's made of Deva the same position that detailed her father held for more than twenty years and she was pretty much like a local boss like her father. Did you think of the populist movements and legacies I think of India's Narendra Modi Hungary's Viktor Orban? We've done plenty of programs on both those leaders on between the lines over these. Sheila seems to me that deter tae has shown fire little interest in in building a party or at least a political movement. That will outlast him Why do you think he's? He's bereft of a broader movement. That will carry on his legacy. Lock Orban Moody. Well together relies a great deal on his personal charisma. That's been the way he you know. He went came to power in Davel. And that's the way he's rude S- president and I don't think he has. He does not have the organizational governance skills to be able to form a party. And we'll party he does. He does not really have a coherent ideology He's anti-china is and American but all of that stems from being who he is. He's made up his his authenticity and the reality is that there are no strong political parties before they came into power and so it's not that he's unique in that sense but he's unlike previous presidents or at least attempted to form a political party that will outlive them. Data so far has not succeeded very much in doing so archivists to into the US relationship to Turkey has repeatedly questioned. Washington's resolve to stand by the Philippines if we're attacked by China he's been cording close ties with Beijing. This is despite of course Chinese territorial climbs Philippine waters and of course China's intimidation of the Philippines fishermen they lost China's lost the case to the Philippines at The Hague for years ago February the she Scrapped the US Visiting Forces Agreement. What's going on he given that the? Us alliance is so popular with the people of the Philippines wants to carbon independent foreign policy independent of the US for for the longest Philippine. Pau Foreign Policy has basically been tied to to the US but detected. Well I think he generally believes that one the US's reigning power and that he should hitch his wagon to the rising star in Asia and China too I think he he really sees the US as being an rightly so you know the US is hypocritical as a world power creatures democracy and human rights when in reality you know it's it's it does other things in it. So is very sensitive to s criticism on his authoritarian tendencies and on his human rights record and so he'd like to have to be independent of us in in that sense and be less dependent on US. Us trade US porn aid and the blessings of US officials extremists. Philippine presidents have been so it's a very pragmatic very interesting because he reminds popular but as I said before the Philippine people still value the relationship. I think I've got some polls here saying that. Eighty Percent Harley skeptical of China and they support their strongly support America attitude. I get away with that. He gets away with it. By by dint of his personal charisma China yeah surely any future. Filipino leader will want a US alliance to balance Chinese influence. Because you've got the Vietnamese and all of the Americans that are clamoring the. Us security guarantees in the face of a rising China. Shortly he success. It will be more worried about China's influence in the region. I think he's successor. Would be wary about Chinese influence but also will not you know Philip? Since China became really the dominant emerging power in the region. A lot of leaders in South Asia tried to strike a balance. You know trying to balance between both. Us and Chinese interests and whole notion of Essien rest and its ability to play one power against the other and so the next president will likely not be as friendly towards China but also try and keep that balance. The next president cannot afford to antagonize China because China is a major source of public works. financing major source of tourists. China's has military clout so China. You the neck knows southeast. Asian leader can afford to ignore China. It's interesting because we're having this debate now in Australia. And this debate will intensify in the wake of the Krahn Avars crosses and a few months time about the nature of the relationship between countries in the region and China and consensus is starting to emerge in Camber that will be more critical and skeptical of China in the wake of this crosses I think so I think Filipinas remorse skeptical partly because the origins of the vice where really from Wuhan first cases of grow enough from Philippines where from Milan and also because of Chinese incursions in Philippine waters. So there's a great deal of this also a great deal of anti Chinese feeling among Filipinos some great deal of social scene O phobic fears but but yes so anti Chinese feeling is very popular right now but dude that is even more popular now. Finally the Philippines is majority Catholic country and the Church has been very critical of deter ties. Drug War which has seen over twelve thousand people killed by the National Police. Do you think the church will prove to be a source of opposition to Detaille in the next two years or or they affect? I've been effectively. Silenced by by Deter Sheila. Well the church is an institution is many is speaks of many voices. But the truth is that one of the main pillars of the opposition to detect human rights abuses especially to the drug war have been bish individual bishops and Priests Church remains a very strong voice. The church right now with with a pandemic is also very strong voice speaking out for the poor and how the poor are suffering. The church is is become you know. The Basic Christian communities have become the bulwark of some of the aid distribution. So I think this pandemic is making them stronger. Plus you know the existential issues raised by covert nineteen makes people go back to the church back to face. This is Holy Week Easter Week in the Philippines and and I think the church gaining a lot of ground it lost in earlier presidencies because of its opposition to birth control divorce reproductive rights for Women Sheila. It's been lovely talking to you. Thanks so much for being on Radio Sheila Coronel. She's professor of Investigative Journalism at the Columbia Journalism. School and you can read her excellent article on deter tie in Foreign Affairs magazine. Bc's between the lines with Tom Switzer. Well let's change the subject from Kron Virus and the Philippines to back here at home now for those of you who want to understand our nation's political history. What do you think we've changed promises? So often has the job of peon becomes so different in recent times he think about it during the past dozen years since two thousand and night there have been six prime ministers Rod Gilaad Rod Abbot Tumble Morrison during the previous dozen years from early Nineteen Ninety-six to light twenty two thousand and seven. There was one promise John. Howard so why has the job of peon becomes so insecure Norman? Johnson is one of our nation's leading political historians and he's told the story of how out twenty nine prime ministers lost power. The book is called the Manor of going and it's published by Australian Scholarly Publishing Norman. Welcome to Iran could be here now struck by your debt of gratitude to Robert Menzies in your forward pame from thirty nine to forty one then forty nine to sixty six tell us about your meeting with Menzies and sixty five. I was a very young journalists in the suburban newspaper in Melbourne come out to something in the electrify comparable but what was the Local member John Jess was quite keen on getting photographic menzies for local pinewood. So he wanted me to point the photographer in his direction. So the quid pro quo introduce me to the province and then I think too that the Thomas said. Look at so you in action a couple of years ago. My parents took me to a town making. I was sixteen during the nineteen sixty three election. Remember it well to exchange pleasantries that was anyway Mixed I John Jess rang me up in the office and he said look the. Pm would like to continue. He's to me. I said well of course I so he gave me a phone number to To bring something made an appointment with Prime Minister's Stop waiting to the coming up column injury offices and know them like them Friday afternoon. Nice I can talk about so often. Ten fifteen minutes. But it was a very congenial. Chattanooga already started to develop an interesting political history so one of the things is keen on asking crime. This wasn't bearing minds to this November December. Nineteen sixty five just before he stepped down. So let's see. What is the difference between? Prime Minister ended in nine hundred. Forty one and where we are now we just to Kaitlin Sigma. Boy said times change been dirt because it was what he wrote in his memoirs he in light. It was a slip near Cooper about his first term. He said he was not so Didn't have the common touch things in black and white to listen to other people's viewpoints. So he suggested that he. He had mellow get quite country. What he called me time and comparable what else. We talked about two minutes ago. Ninety nine years during the nineteen seventies and He was very disinclined to talk about politics. He would much prefer to talk about. Kriegel straighten football and they think comme at that stage. Seventy four seventy five Young politicians seem to have a political figure. He seemed to have any time for was Bob. Santamaria Sir I think in conversational Putin's having closed nick mutate. Us points about why that these ladies leave. And he's one of the few prime ministers who's actually late as generally. I mean we've had a few stipe premiums who leave power that Tom of their choosing but he departed at a time of his choosing and defied in on Powell's doctrine that all political crees Indian file. Just as an aside. Can you name at the top of your head? The one member of Federal Parliament who actually met Robert Menzies. You know it. I'll tell you now. Oh actually I'll tell you at the end of the show because it's fascinating and I listened can think about that. The one member of parliament whether they're parliamentarian or a Senate actually met Robert Menzies in their life. Now we're talking about the churning of political leadership industry during the pasta decade. It looks exceptional but is it really a new development in the country. norm Sh- well Who a turn of the topics really been more pronounced publicized in recent years and I think they were fairly complex explanations that some I think certainly the the Knights of authority has changed and certainly the concrete some sell to strike become much more electoral machines. David King political scientist and lighter a minister in the Howard government run many years ago that the Liberal Party had a very instrumental view of of of of leadership is when going to win the next election. You were in trouble. The Language County by contrast had a very institutionalized the latest ship I think those true physicians have merged somewhat Inca that become very similar. And I think you're actually on notice From during of the the advent of political polling. Now which is just to the clinical landscape. I think on a week to week basis. It's not too late in the reading. Your Book Norman. I mean I was thinking to myself you know you think about it from nodding. I one when we become an independent state right through to the outset. The outbreak of World War One nine and fourteen. The country had ten prime ministers mass extrordinary from nineteen sixty six to nine hundred seventy two so from that period after menzies resigned. Just been talking about two nodding seventy two when it came to power. This was the heart of Vietnam War. We had six prime ministers. So doesn't that indicate that long tenures menzies there? An aberration and instability. Is the politics. Well some insane to me now I think we if we look back on the night off the Commonwealth before the The two party system was established. We we still prime ministers come and go Defeated on the floor of the House and I think that was an ability with its own particular explanation and he grew up in the nineteen fifties. Mike Marciel book means. We seem to be prime minister forever. He seemed to be a big strong landscape and he was just what the prime minister should was all about and to electric stinks to the prime ministership of John Howard. So you're writing pointed the longevity something of an aberration but quite remarkable prime ministership Saito. Indeed my guess is Norman ABC Johnson. He's author of the Manning of that manner of the going to the title of the book. The manner of their going. It's about prime ministers and the white I leave power. I liked reading about James Scotland. Prime Minister from nineteen twenty nine. He's elected around the time of the Wall Street crash until nineteen thirty one these tumultuous times and he was asked. Lyda lighter in light of US where they rod he's memoirs twitchy replied quite in nearly killed me to live through it. It would kill me to write about it. I love that law now so more often than not. The voters kicked prime ministers out of office Can you can you name them? All of your head Norman. Well Predicted any second time. He served three terms and refresher who will serve three. Times was feet of you. The polls in the Second Term Joseph Cook Stanley Melbourne Bruce. Jin Skeleton Been Chiefly. Bill McMahon Impreza Kaeding John Howard given rotten day. Now three promises Dodd in office who would I Joseph? Lyons in thirty nine nine hundred. Forty five and unfortunate. How about halt drowning in light? Sixty seven five were defeated on the floor remind US George Raid of the Commonwealth Quick Watson the first Labor prime minister hundred thinking twice suffered that sites Hendrick Fisher in each first term and the most recent was out in nineteen twenty one and of course some promises when not bother ironside. Tillis him Hitler we into treachery secret getting to the real the real the real the blood loss of politics. Would I believe who later? Akaki and joining the nationalist He was removed from office. Because the country probably will be coalition. What's he been a leader? Bob Menzies Nicklaus incarnation in nineteen. Forty one Joey John Gorton in nine hundred seventy one hoax the most accessible Labor prime minister will. I'm in in Nineteen Ninety nine one seven Rodney first. Prime Ministership She's successor Julia. More recently tiny. Abbott Nicholson alone leaks victims and I've really rapidly developed in recent. Tom's of course the one prime minister we haven't mentioned here of course is Gough Whitlam. He was dismissed by the Governor General. And you rise the possible American role in the dismissal in nineteen seventy five now in his review of your book in the Australian the former Labor Senator Steven loosely. He says quote pastas on this program. Loosely says quote neither the C. I. Nor any other agency luckily played a primary or sinister hand in toppling. The struggling with government Stephen Loosely. Further nights quote the Australian establishment from Kurth rephrase it to chief justice SAGAAF. You'll bowie backed overwhelmingly by the strain. Media was more than equal to destroying the library administration. Norm Johnson well lupita smoking guns have been found? I mean It's been a conspiracy theory. If you like that. The the Americans had some hand in that but what is yet to be explained to the the visit to Australia briefly. Nine hundred seventy seven apple. Jimmy took from the Food Administration and Warren Christopher light it becomes secretary of state asked for making with Wickham. I think I missed the Sydney Airport so quickly up to Leave your position with. He's he's secretary. Richard Butler and Warren Christopher said Might a number of points about the Democrats being attornal coffee with the Labor coffee strength and so forth they made the statement according to Buckler. We just wanted to give you an a show that we will never again interfere in Australia domestic politics and it was a very great at according to Buffalo's account Richie guy even the next such whitland stay with them going into the column sit to that outcome right and According to Buckler was still shocked by the dismissal and the giants for their interference victim can sign anything. I mean that that's the closest thing to but it's never been explained why were in. Christopher would make those remarks so what I'm doing is canvassing the landscape you're making it insinuations. But I'm going to say we. We've never found the smoking gun. Look having said that Given series entirely circumstantial and we shouldn't forget line in culture bution. I mean the loans. Which badly handled the ministerial resignations? And that that will have to cut short because we are running out of time and that is another episode altogether. We'll get you back on but listen getting back to the question arises before the quiz question of the day on between the lines nine the one member of the Australian parliament who met Ramiz who is at the current time. But I believe it or not. It's Cain what the indigenous affairs minister. He met Robert Menzies the before. You met him in nineteen sixty four fascinating norman. It's great to have you on the program again. Many thanks as Norman ABC Johnson. He's author of the many of the going he paraphrase tolstoy at the end he says quote or prime ministers in office a similar but h leaves office in his or her own peculiar way. Well that's it for another week off between the lines. It's always great to have you company now. Remember you can download pasta episodes of the show on between the lines website. Or You can get them wherever you get your podcast remember. We've been doing this since two thousand fourteen. It'd be great to have you company again next week on Tom. Switzer can tune in again next week. You've been listening to an ABC podcast. Discover more great. Abc. Podcasts live radio and exclusives on the ABC Listen Up.

Philippines Norman ABC Johnson US Tom Switzer China Robert Menzies Sheila Coronel Prime Minister president Australia ABC Columbia Journalism School Foreign Affairs magazine John Howard Rod Gilaad Rod Abbot Tumble Mo Manila Bob Menzies Nicklaus professor of Investigative Jou Philip National Police
Has Scott Morrison spent too much?; and can China rise peacefully?

Between The Lines

29:08 min | 5 months ago

Has Scott Morrison spent too much?; and can China rise peacefully?

"This is an ABC podcast. Get there and welcome to between the lines. This is Tom Switzer and it's great to heavy company. Now, today on the show we all too often he that China's President Xi Jinping wants to overturn international status quo having emerged from two centuries of economic and military weakness to finally master fisted technologies. A more authoritarian China is growing rapidly and converting its economic might into strategic clout. So how should the US and it's Liberal Democratic allies meet China's challenge stay with this segment on China and the rules based order. But first liberals and the upcoming federal budget. Well. Forgive me. If you've already heard me mention this but one of my favorite quotes during the covid crosses a pdf the guardian. This is the British lift wing newspaper. Now, this was the heart of the coronavirus crisis. It would have been light much quote just as there are no atheists on a sinking ship, there are no free marketeers during a pandemic. Now, the author of that apt quote Jonathan Freedland, he was referring to the audio logical revolution within the British conservative. Party. Now, according to Freedland Boris Johnson's his have defied four decades of thatcherism small-state free-market, thinking I to spend staggering amounts of money and then subsidizing the wages of workers. Could the same thing be said about Australia's Liberal Party they're the party of Howard and Costello now embraces big-spending high deficit government interventionism. And is a permanent state of affairs poor kilis editor at large of the Australian US pipe and Judas Brit is emeritus professor of politics at Latrobe University poll judy welcome back to the show. Hristo Paul, you've written to calms about this subject in the past week, summarize your faces. Will Martha is that all parties and all governments have to respond to the times in which they find themselves on display in Australia. Now we face an extraordinary economic crisis and the response reveals the nature of Scott Morrison, his prime minister and the Mars and government. So Morrison, not responding as Liberal Party progressive or is it Liberal Party conservative? He doesn't see himself in those terms his responses pragmatic selects able and practical. He's not inhibited by former policy and audio logical icons of the Liberal Party. Say What we say is the government has abandoned the long-term syllabus aspirations. It's A. Big Spending government it's a government government intervention focused on Keynesian demand management. It does however on the Liberal Party tradition of tax cuts will see next week. So it's prepared to regulate or deregulate according to the situation according to what's required. So to sum up say that Morrison wants to be defined by results and outcomes not philosophical principle. Okay. You mentioned the tax cuts leaving that aside traditional liberal governments are about balancing the books Paul, how much an as do you think aries in the Liberal Party about in the parliament and outside about these handouts to preserve jobs and livelihoods? Are. I. Don't think there's much on these at all OPTIMA and Tom. and. A couple of reasons for this if there is to be on, he's He's will come through the down the track, but essentially what's happening here is to govern is following the Orthodoxy or what you might call the new Orthodoxy in terms of meeting the financial and economic crisis. So roller response is sort of radical. It's also conventional. The official family is working together very closely. The Treasury the Reserve Bank, what the government is doing is essentially supported by private-sector economists. It's in law and with Patrick amended by the VCD and the IMF not the cabinet is very nodded, the Prime Minister and the treasurer are working very closely together so far the results look good. I think the Overwhelming sentiment on the back benches. Support, the government strategy in the hope that this gives individual employees, the chance of actually being reelected and my will give the government the chance of being reelected. So the reinvention of Australian liberalism is on full display with this budget judith break you agree with Paul Kelly about the the audio logical significance of these changes but actually think the government had much choice in that sense I do think we can see something audio logical preferences in a couple of the policies poor mentioned the tax cuts they've chosen tax cuts over for example, committing to a permanent increase in new act now co Job Seca. They've also, for example, if we look at the way, they wanted to stimulate the housing market. They've gone for giving money to individual owners rather than, for example, embarking on a social housing project. So I think in some of the means, we can still see some of the ideological preferences of the Patty. One of the things I've wondered when I've been watching the events unfold. If Labor had won the last election was in government with the Liberals have supported the same levels of spending or would they have if you like stayed in the sort of ideological bunker bean and attacked the blow out of the deficit? I mean, it's a hypothetical. In some ways I think we've been very lucky that it's been the liberals and the coalition in government because they can sense being able to Ghana much more support. I, think than I have been able to do for the same levels of spending but isn't cameras response to the COVID crosses more consistent with other Western governments during the pandemic Judy. Yes that's what I think. I had much option but the question is if the coalition of being opposition, would they have supported a Labor government going? You've written a lot about this have many many decades about when orthodoxies or overturned. It's usually bipartisan is that you'll since if the coalition cypher argument's sake wherein opposition I would have gone along with this big spending interventionism. Look are essentially agree with what Judy's said about this I think in a sense we're. Fortunate, if you liked that the coalition's in government because it's taken all the big spending decisions. and. Lay has been prepared to go along with back. In fact, it's argued that there should be even more spending. So in that sense, we've had a broad degree of thought-out ship within the economic framework. It is hot the typical of course to tron speculate about what would have happened if alive had been in office doing this but I do think that the coalition in opposition would have been tempted to make caught a lot of criticisms and to suggest that the spending had gone too far. There's a big difference for party thing in government managing across and being an opposition. Cape with this theme of a political realignment among center right parties around the Western world. If you think about Donald Trump in two thousand sixteen, he tapped into widespread anxieties. America's rust belt. What can class constituencies? Boris Johnson showed last December, he resonated with traditional British Library voters in the Midlands and northern England. Judy. Do you think that Morrison in a wise doing the same thing here in Australia? Now, I think they're very different sorts of crises. I mean the pandemic is an external. Crisis, it's not being caused by politics in any way it's not back nationalism versus globalism or any of those things, and so I don't agree with that. I agree with what Paul was saying earlier that Morrison's shown himself to be pragmatic and quick footed in this and I think we're lucky for that. But I I don't think that this lines up with bricks and with trump's appeal to the rest spilled poor Kelly. Well I think conservatism is changing if you look at. America Britain Australia and there's not a dopey getting very significant changes into servitude. Thought. Different changes argued very strongly that there are very substantial differences between Donald Trump and Scott Morrison. I think people who argue that. Morrison is a pilot version of DONALD TRUMP MAUREEN DOWD in the New York Times by the way, but go on. I think. I think turned him mentally misunderstand the situation I. Think the change in conservatism is very dramatic in the United States. If you'd like because we've got the transition from Ronald, Reagan who a generation ago was the great conservative champion, and now we have Donald Trump, who if you lock is a populist conservative? And that transformation is simply enormous install ending content I mean trump violates all the virtues of conservatism in terms of restraint prudence disciplined respect. Regard for the political system, he thrives on division. So he likes all the traditional conservative norms, and then when looks at his policies. Well he's sabotage the global trading system. He's an arch protectionist. He's engaged in this trade war with China he's appraised dictators and suspicious about. So I guess one of the Fundamental Christians here is the extent to which trump is an aberration. And the extent to which post trump American concert is we'll have to try and create a new position cognisant of the damage that trump has done to the traditional Republican Party I. Guess Paul Kelly author of several books including the end of certainty and the march of Patriots Judith Brit, his author of Australia's liberals and the moral middle class and Robert Menzies Forgotten. People. Judy when thinking about the coming budget and how that fits into the history of Liberal Party audiology how do you account for cameras attitudes towards the universities and the arts I mean does it represent a betrayal of Cy Robert Menzies? It's certainly very different from the physician that Robert Menzies took but at think it's because of the nature of the middle class has changed. Mentioning my book. Straightened liberals in the moral middle class in menzies time education was much less widely distributed and they were in a way more united behind certainly support for the arts and Menzies. Innocence. Expanded the university system. What's happened to the universities in a strategy? I think is puzzling in some ways it's been pat because by the government pulling money out of the sector as student fees increased the government supporters decrease it's also have been caused by choices the universities themselves have made tally in response to external pressure, but not only there. But, I think that Australians at lodge should be really alarmed about what's happening to me. It's the quality of teaching which has been declining over couple of decades in terms of the resources that universities have prepared to put into the teaching, and it can be seen in the schedule as Asian of the teaching staff which has many of them. You know they worked very had their highly skilled people, but they not paid to give the. Sort of support to students that I got as an undergraduate. Any I retired from teaching around two thousand twelve and even then teaching staff what we had more time to give to supporting students. So class sizes have increased subject choices decrease in I think taxpayers should be really concerned about the quality of the education that their children and grandchildren getting universities now okay. Farley the post budget economic recovery. We've got several economists I believe the best. Way Out of this crisis is via a new productivity enhancing reform agenda that improves incentives to work strengthens long-term growth living standards. This is the treasurer at Josh Freudenberg with ABC's David speeds this was just a few months ago. He did say when it comes to economic reform the other day that you'll be taking inspiration from Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan really well, they dealt very successfully with the challenges that they faced particularly stagflation unemployment high. Inflation. But if you if you look at Margaret, Thatcher alive is winter of discontent she came in she reduced the number of days lost to industrial disputation from Damian down to mean she cut Texas and when it comes to to Ronald Reagan, he's talk about two economists having three opinions. But what he did say is that cutting taxes cutting red type, He created twenty million new jobs. I. Say he was very success, right? Reaganomics. Boosted growth and sometimes down. Trawler. Thatcher Reagan. Figures of height for the lift because that was so successful one got tombs, which was the maximum you can get in the United States Magara Thatcher go to live in the half year is seven officers. Will. You take inspiration from lots of different sources. I also taken from Howard and Castilla, but the reality is that veteran right can cut red type they cut taxes and I delivered stronger economies that was josh. Falkenberg. David, spy's Paul Kelly the treasure. This sounds a lot like a true believer in free market reforms. I. Think that interview is a one off module belt. This is. Thatcher and Reagan a not. particularly. Good examples for. The Morrison government. And I did note in that interview, the Treasurer said that Thatcher and Reagan were not. He's guiding lights as such and then referred to how Costello and so on. I think we currently live in a very different time to fetch and Reagan. It's not surprising that the treasury defends them. Of course, he's going to defend them. But in terms of sort of productivity both supply side reform. Agenda. This is the soda. Thing. I've. Supported for many indeed. Discussing with the whole Katie tradition to bother why pool or well of course, it is however, I've also argued. That I think this sort of reform agenda is incredibly difficult to get up these days. And I'm not at all surprised that Morrison and FROLUNDA. Have focused on demand management at the moment that is. Boosting activity boosting jobs are providing a lot of government spending providing tax cuts trying to get the economy ticking a Gyn, and there is significantly in the treasurer stipends. Last week, he indicated that they would not start to look at fiscal consolidation until unemployment was comfortably below six percent. This is a very, very cautious stands to take. It means that the debate will be about economic expansion for a number of years yet certainly, beyond the next election I think the government would lock to engage in supply side reforms but I believe it will be very cautious and selective about the supply side reforms does identify. Last week the treasurer identified to in relation to insolvencies and expansion of credit and I think there's a logic to both the US and I think the government. Can make a political case for both ause beyond that are still believe that the task of productivity enhancing supply side reforms is extremely difficult in political terms, but Hogan catering used the mid nineties. Currency crosses balance of payments crosses to justify around of productivity enhancing supplies, odd reform I Judy Ken Morrison, and Freudenberg use this crosses to kick start a new era of productivity enhancing supply side reform. Well, the thing about what who can Katie was something that did that in partnership with the union movement that was still employing a large number of employees was still in and we have a quite different economy. Now, as we know this a lot fewer people in unions of a lot more salt tried a. Small business people we've got the challenge of the GIG economy, which is locking people into insecure headwork. So it's pretty different. I think an only ideological barriers are just reading today in the age about the problems with getting agriculture workers and I'm thinking we've got all these asylum-seekers who are not allowed to work living in the community. Many of them will have come from rural backgrounds will probably be quite happy to go out and pick cabbages. You know they still some big blocks in terms of the pragmatism that Morrison government is shelling in relationship to the problems that the economy's facing Judy Paul to be continued. Thanks so much for being on our end. Thanks for having me tone dog autumn. Judith bread is emeritus professor of politics at Latrobe University and Paul Kelly is editor at large of the Australian newspaper. This is between the lines with Tom Swift. Making sense of Australia's place in the world, we'll know subject is dominated this programs agenda more than the economic and geopolitical rise of China. Now, it's obviously an issue of particular importance for Australia after all China's is just tried Patna. But the question here is Kanchana rise peacefully does Beijing. Have a stake in what turned the rules-based international order, which after all has provided the stability necessary for China's rise orders China have an interest in overturning an order that he did not create. With Lowy Institute Australia's leading foreign policy. Think tank just published a collection of us on this subject and two of the contributors join us. Now John Cova is a former senior US intelligence officer with thirty five years experience as a leading. CRI analysts of East Asia is and Ben. Scott is director of Australia security and the rules based order project at the low institute John Been Working to RN thanksgiving Tom Hanks Tom it's great to be with you. Now Ben, you have written that the key components of the rules based order There obviously established by the US as the dominant power in the post. World War Two era does a rising China still have a stake in order. Thanks Tom well as the contributions this debate show the answer is B. Complicated I mean China wants to keep some parts of DC news team order it certainly likes having a permanency to Urine Security Council for example on the hand it wants to get rid of some pots especially all that stuff about universal individual human rights and between those two extremes what we say in the debate is that wants to take over. Repurpose or even modify large parts of that order. So one of my takeaways from the project is that the sort of hard nosed real of the Chinese Communist Party actually have a very healthy appreciation for the power of a rules based order under international norms particular. Yeah. But it's been about two decades since China into the WTO the World Trade Organization and the widespread hope at the time was the China would gradually become a responsible stakeholder and you clearly China has become more authoritarian at home more city abroad John in allowing contribution you say that over the past decade, many aspects of China's behavior have been horned jaundice this mean that China Conroy's peacefully. Well taking the question literally I'd say it's still possible training could rise peacefully but that will take hard work on all sides and some of the Chinese leaders or We have to see some evidence that Chinese leaders are capable of coming what I like to call increasingly narcissistic nationalism. This is not a confident regime and I'd wager that Xi Jinping and spending his nights happily envisioning glorious rejuvenated China hint estimates for the mid. Century. He has far too many other problems on his mind most of them domestic, but we don't need to reprise the cold. War To stop China's plan for global domination because it probably doesn't have one. It has a narrative that addresses domestic grievances over the so-called hundred and fifty years of humiliation and including the inevitable reunification of Taiwan is they like to put it and the Communist Party needs. To demonstrate that it can return China to its rightful place as primitive power in Asia and a great power globally, and so you know what? I've been seeing it I. Think this came through in some aspects of the debate is this is going to require efforts by the United States Australia and the other Western democracies to meet China's China's challenge especially over the values norms the international order. This will not be a repeat of the Cold War but a competition that requires us to confront things like the current pandemic, as well as the societal economic insecurity challenges posed by change and the fourth industrial revolution. China's conduct is related to the leadership of Shea Jingping. Do you think China's conduct is driven more by say, Marxism Leninism, the John mentioned that audiology or is driven more by nationalism Tom. This is something a lot of debate about in in our feature. The end of the day I think I'm persuaded by the arguments that ideology plays a major role, probably a greater role and we would have assumed say ten years ago in looking at the say cd pay but it's still the case that the Chinese Communist Party's first priority is its own survival that's very tied up with ideology because legitimacy link to ideology that he's also make as much use of nationalism as Ken. On the question of changing things personally I I also persuaded by the that does make a big difference but there's a lot of this have to do with structural factors and not internal factors I think historical precedents when you look at America's rise in the nineteenth century, it keep the European powers of the region in order to secure a sphere of influence in Latin America John Is Chana likely to follow in the US footsteps in the sense that it will kick out the Americans in order to impose its own sphere of influence John Call the. Not to be glad but the Communist Party seems to assess it doesn't need to kick the US out of Asia because thanks that the US will depart to regions as the region's affinity for the US declines assuming that China demonstrates deliver regional goods such as infrastructure, economic growth, security instability, and as far as long as these offset the costs of complying with China's goals and demands. My guest John Calva he's a former veteran, CIA analyst of East Asian Affairs and Ben Scott. He's director of the Lowe Institutes. Rules based order project. Now, it's pain four years more than four years now since The Hague International Tribunal ruled against China. This was about its conduct in the South China Sea they said it was illegal yet the US in its allies have filed changed badging behavior. Ben Scott doesn't this suggest the very limits of the so-called rules liberal. International Order. the short answer is, yes, it does. But I would say that the fact that states are able to nor international law as China has in the South China. Sea doesn't mean that the international law has no fixed often a price to pay in terms of legitimacy which I think China has tied in paying and then on the South China Sea in particular I'd say that although China's made a lot of progress I, don't think that all's lost it's still possible that climate sites can come together to cooperate more can work more with other interested powers. Australia's one of them United States Japan Europe pushback a bit more. If. If indeed, Beijing continues to disregard global norms and rules most notably in the South China Sea John What, what can the US and its allies do I. I think of are serious case of China violating norms roles. It's brutal crackdown of its Muslim community especially the warriors but really. An internal issue though what kind of leverage does America in the wrist have? With respect to an internal matter. Well I think reputation and so far. It is disconcerting that despite efforts by the international community led by specially Australia in the United States Muslim majority states have been quiet but it doesn't mean you stop is they're conducting cultural genocide and they were a little cost it means we need to continue to drive that conversation on the South China Sea I really agree with Ben that all is not lost that they largely stopped the aggressive posture we saw without retreating, but they haven't advanced with more land reclamation and impart because to be blunt. The. Failure of the Philippines to assert their case after the tribunal decision in two thousand, sixteen allow China to kind of coast and focus on a code of conduct negotiations. But I think that if we align ourselves, mean the broader world with really stand up in promoting common goals on trade security freedom of navigation that we can presentable united front and try to slow China's role final question to you, John Calvin. If she were replaced in coming years. Would Washington seed as a sign of hope? Or a vulnerability to exploit. I think it depends a bit on which Americans. So it's important to note that Xi Jinping did not exactly knife fight his way to the top of the Communist Party. He didn't execute a coup d'etat. He was selected by the Polar Bureau Standing Committee and powerful elders like John's amid some Changhong backed by a strong consensus of the Central Committee. There was a collective sense that China in the party needed stronger and more decisive. Leadership. So in the event that say she were to pass from the scene tomorrow, a lot would depend on what the Communist Party did next and how the US viewed it. There's no successor waiting in the wings. She's made sure of that, and if she who was a princeling the son of a prominent revolutionary elder was a consensus answer of for mounting contradictions of collective leadership, the Communist Party would have to decide if today. In his absence whether his policies and actions needed to be reassessed for example, with the Communist. Party conclude that he mismanaged China's most important relationship that the United States or will they conclude that no leader would have succeeded with the advent of us. President Donald Trump. So, I could foresee the Communist Party's leadership conclude that she's problems were the problem that the US has a jealous hegemonic and it has more aggressive efforts to blunt China's rise. John Ben thanks so much for being on our today. Thank you very much Tom Pleasure Tom John Cova is a former senior US intelligence officer with thirty five years of experience leading CI analysts of East Asian Affairs, and he was with Ben Scott Director of Australia's security and the rules by stored project at the Lowy Institute, and for more on the project visit the lowy homepage and low institute DOT Org. Well, that's it. For this weekend. Remember if you'd like to download past episodes of the program including earliest segment on the Liberals Ideological Odyssey that was with Paul Kelly and Judith Brit just go to ABC dot net dot edu slash Iran and follow the prompts to between the lines or of course you can download the podcast via the ABC listen. I'm Tom Switzer from radio national hype you continue to between the lines week. You've been listening to an ABC podcast discover more great. ABC podcasts live radio and exclusives on the ABC listen APP.

China United States government Australia Scott Morrison Liberal Party Paul Kelly Judy Ken Morrison Donald Trump Hristo Paul treasurer America Chinese Communist Party Tom John Cova Tom Switzer South China Sea Ronald Reagan Ben Scott Freedland Boris Johnson Morrison government
Edition 2057

Monocle 24: Midori House

21:30 min | 1 year ago

Edition 2057

"You're listening to Monaco's has first broadcast on the nineteenth of December two thousand nineteen and twenty four. This is molecules house view coming up today reaching a little bit much to imagine we suddenly see this blossoming of political maturity after election that reshaped the political map the UK. Okay Parliament is once again open for business but will it be business as usual. My guests Daniele Pellett and Maria COSMO discussed that and the day's news including how long is too long as Lemme Putin needs. Twenty years give or take leading Russia. We will ask if there is or should be a universally accepted best before date in and leadership will also be discussing some of our favorite fictional countries plus a look at Italian politics. I'm Andrew Miller Monaco's house view starts now welcome to the show on joined by Daniele Pellet Managing Editor of the Institute for war and Peace Reporting Murray Lecomte Kant political journalist and author. We will start he in the UK currently a week into what may be a long process of trying to assimilate the fact that Boris Actual Johnson is somehow how prime minister. The Queen opened parliament today and outlined. The new government's plans on the other side of the aisle. The field seeking the leadership of the Labour Party is saddling up. Following last Thursday's martyrdom of Saint Jeremy Daniele first of all. We'll start with the government do we yet However will we think we know him understand yet? What kind of prime minister? Boris Johnson is going to be I think he'll probably the same prime minister as he was and same kind of Mayor as he was and same kind of Boris Johnson as Boris Johnson. Or always was. I think it's Reaching a little bit much to imagine we suddenly see this blossoming of clinical maturity When he's going to be the prime minister looks like the next five years? Maybe even the next ten years anticipating a lot of unbuilt bridges both actual and metaphorical. Yeah I think there's going to be quite low of huffing and puffing and lots of gaffes Some more serious than than the other. I mean what will you know in the way that people do try to make themselves feel better off of political crises We're all saying. Actually he's got Monday and he's going to not be in enthralled to the right wing of his party and actually he's GonNa do stuff for the chess but I think a little just trying to make ourselves feel a bit better but I do think that in terms of finding out what sorts of prime minister is going to be the next five years. We kind of have to wait for early February. The next proper reshuffle is meant to be. Then the idea is we have have to get breaks out of the way first. And then we'll have a full-scale reshuffle on anything. They'll be the really interesting thing because actually over the summer we had no idea what sorts of. PM Boris is going to be until he pointed Tapie Dominic Robb and Preachy Patel and then several and fell okay no this is not going to be one. Nation is to sexually voracious. He's quite right wing so I do think that yes. Seeing hugh he wants to surround surround himself with for the long run related subject Meritas always one of the joys of government being elected with an unexpectedly large majority. They will be a number of new. Tory are- impedes who nobody really thought was going to get elected and we're just kind of put up as placeholder in their seats. How long do you give it before we start learning some incredibly entertaining things belt? Say actually that. That's very much in the Western civilization lots of conversations along those lines and especially from like Tori friends who are very anxious about. Yeah and you know Independent. I've had one one person who had basically been blacklisted. Norbert named super in a complete now. hoops he'd because they can just get rid of him In is is GONNA put him over there and he he's an MP now everyone's surprise today they will definitely be lots of anxiously waiting from CCA. Excuse you see who ends up saying walked walk through the next few months. That's something we have to look forward to the other thing. We have to look forward to is of course the the Labour leadership contest so far as it's possible to detail what do you sense that Labor has actually learned from last week experience briefly and say nothing really. Nothing I mean I think again and we're in we're going through the seven stages of Grief Heifer the Labor Party and I can't remember which we are. I think we still anger. Maybe there's a few more stages to to go but it's quite edifying. CEO The senior. figure sort of scurrying around saying it wasn't me actually. I never thought thought this was a good idea. I told Jeremy Idea I told him Etcetera Etcetera Etcetera. But the fact is is that the corporate action still has charge of the party. I mean they can still that. They're still basically in charge of the of the apparatus funds now that Mister Cuban is taking his sweet time in transition period. What what are you from is it not as I think it's It it's really impossible to tell and and there are plenty of very capable. People still in leadership roles in the Labor Party. But would you really want to be the Labour leader right now when the traumas is still the unfolding. And there's another. I think they might have to add some stages of grief onto the usual seven at to try and process what happened Murray. The has done ula rightly points out being a lot of chatter from Corbin enthusiasts about how how dreadful it is the the voters of lost touch with the Labor Party. But do you sense that this is a good time for anybody who seriously fancy themselves as a serious Labor prime minister to actually get the job because realistically it might not be a five year proposition. This might be a decade and I I think that you know that they currently fighting to basically be the Neil Kinnock I think But also what I found really interesting actually with a pulse week has been Say Protocol been people saying well. Jeremy needs to stay on Falungong in until things calm down and then anti-cuban people saying no. He needs to go now when actually that should have been the other way around because surely more time gives factions more time to actually organize themselves. Find the better leader find the better policies etc and then let l'egypte contestants all right six to nine months. This is what we have as opposed to anything. The closer to the election at Egypt contest is the more likely it is that the Kuban faction will be able to say there you go you know whistling control the machine. This is who we want. This is who you're GONNA get tricky. I'm not I'm not sure what's going to happen. identing having the leadership contest the early on was the best lead there and yet as a result I I do not think that whoever wins now will be the next pm I think even imagine grandpa has become so embarrassing that they want to heed. Anybody sensible just wants him gone now and it doesn't really matter About timing and about how how prepared you are final. Quick thought on British politics which are put to your Murray one of the actual big things that Boris Johnson is going to have to confront sooner rather than later. Data is Scotland Nichola sturgeon saying again. Today that she's really not kidding she wants another referendum on independence. Do you get the sense that Boris Johnson who did make a big noise of pointing himself. You know the not just the prime minister but the the minister for you know the Union and he does lead what is still technically known as the conservative and Unionist Party do you think he's actually that bothered about whether Scotland remains in the UK or not. I actually think there's always talking to one one of those who lost their seats yesterday. and I think they will definitely be over the NFL on both sides of the border to creek sitting there trying to create a the department for the Union. And actually you know promise that presence of in Scotland all making the argument because that's not something that governments have always been very good at making the argument adament physically in Scotland as well on top of ages from Western idea. Actually think he has but mostly because you know because Boris is someone who's obsessed with his his legacy I think Already even more so than other prime ministers so he cannot be seen purely on ego basis as as the PM who lost Scotland Daniele Pellett and Murray Lecomte. We'll have more from both in just a moment. But first here's molecules yelling fan with some of the other stories. We're following today thanks Andrew. Donald Trump has become just the third. US President to be impeached members of the House of Representatives found that he had abused his power and also obstructed Congress. It means that the Republican led Senate will now now decide whether the president should be removed from office. New South. Wales has declared a state of emergency as Australia grapples with record-breaking temperatures the nation endured. It's hottest every day on Tuesday but that record was beaten again. Yesterday as thermometer is saw an average maximum of almost forty two Celsius the arsenal. Oh footballer Oziel has been removed from China's version of a video game following his criticism of China's treatment of weaker Muslims. Zile who is a Muslim has called leaguers warriors warriors who resist persecution. He has now been removed from pro evolution. Soccer in China those Today's headlines Spec to you Andrew Frank you yolene. This is molecules articles house view. I'm Andrew Mueller. He with Mari Lecomte and Daniela Pellet. Let's move seamlessly alone. One listen Labor could usefully have learned. Is the one about allowing leaders to to stay in office too long. In the case of Jeremy Corbyn about four years too long. The question is raised by the looming twentieth anniversary in charge of Russia of President Vladimir Putin written he became acting president on New Year's Eve. Nine hundred ninety nine following the resignation of Boris Yeltsin to spend more time with his vodka and has remained firmly. ensconced in the Kremlin ever since notwithstanding the four years he let his mini-me Dmitry Medvedev have ago behind the big desk so Putin could skirt term limits. Donnie go on that thought right. There are term limits basically a good idea and they make sense really as part of a democratic Institution Russian. I mean in general I would say democracy kind of takes care of overstayers Especially party systems If you look at international politics anything over a decade and we start to get into dodgy territory and their vanishing a few examples examples. I think of proper functioning democracies where people have stayed on much much longer the counterbalance to that argument. Mary's of course is the electorate factored is the term limit. That it should be up to the people to decide that if they want given potentate to crack on for decades then that option should be available to them as it is for example under the United Kingdom system. Boris Johnson could be prime minister for the next fifty years. I completely agree but I do think it's about the length of the Times uh-huh as well because we always had that problem in fronts until relatively recently the grand scheme of things of assault presidential terms with seven years so wholesome technically elected twice. But that's fourteen. Years is an incredibly massive amounts of time. Say I I didn't know I suppose I suppose to the time you probably do. I need time limits. But only in the case that the actual terms are kept reasonably short. That makes sense Australia where I am from inherited the Westminster System which mainstay theoretically there is no limit to how long going to straighten. Prime Minister can go on for the record. I think stands. I think it's eighteen years something like that. It's the I'm reliably informed by parents who lived through the rain of Sir Robert Menzies that it seemed even from done. How long is too long? Because the thing is all jokes aside head of government running a country. It's a it's a high pressure job does genuinely take an actual toll on people if you can compare and contrast photos talk people once. They took office once they leave it. It's not just the fact that they might be five or six years old or is there a point at which people basically for their own good and therefore with that the country should just be told yet. Thanks for your service. But you're done. I don't think it's a physical thing. But I think people do inevitably start to go bonkers with power on. That's the that's the example. We can look you know even with a democratic system and then the usually Flinn defenestrate so to speak as what happened with with Margaret Thatcher. So The term limits tend to take care of themselves. If you have a party that's willing to willing able to stab you in the back which is also a sign of democracy McCain. Do either of you have a particular favorite overstaying leader. I have advanced Australia's contribution to the genre surrounded menzies. Who's actually and he's eighteen? We knew stretch. I think it was eighteen years something like that was actually his second crack. He was briefly. He was very briefly. Prime Minister Thirty nine to forty one and then came back and had another go after after the war I was actually looking at this On the way hair and Nazerbayev in Kazakhstan was quite interesting because he was there for twenty nine years this year. Twenty nine hundred very long Included in two thousand seven Guessing amendments repellent which. I've seen very new apartment. That's very independent as imagine and that allowed him. I I need to have more terms but not future has extend presidents. They was she emotion to say the incumbent can remain president if he wishes but been other ones after that and the best thing as well is that not only is still leader of the of the country officially but they named capital after him. Oh No so tom in honour which is a pretty great legacy it it really is but Just to go back to Dunya Lewis saying Murray is that it's era out there any examples of actually governments improving as or at least as premierships me a ship or presidencies improving along they get. Is it the thing with politics that you get a calling to burst of energy when you take the job and you have that initial surge of goodwill presumably zoom ably from the people who elected you. It's it's generally all kind of downhill from there. Isn't it kind of is. I'm going to actually struggling to think of examples. That would support the theory. I read that in a very long governments. A better idea thing and again I think is kind of coming back to the term times as well because I think that if governments don't have the fire fire in them of you know we may be about to get kicked out and you know where we have to give something to the voters. Then he gives them like fall too much time and space too busy do what they want. Instead which is not always the best the thing I should mention With reference to Sir Robert Menzies Australia's longest serving prime minister. This this is just me Cro. Barring one of my favorites in facts into the discourse Is that. He was succeeded by one of Australia's shorter serving prime ministers harold halt Who went missing at sea Not long into the job. In fact it was the anniversary of it two days ago. Nineteen sixty nine. It would have been no sixty-seven wrong anniversary anyway. Went missing at sea His body was never found Not Long afterwards and I'm not making this up in Melbourne. A swimming pool was named after the I don't died even think. They thought they were trying to be funny. But anyway finally on today's news panel we should go to the United States and a cautionary tale of the perils of attempting to be amusing zing with placeholder. Copy we have all done this. I hope and I would like at this time to apologize to the Indie rock group whose picture appeared in Melody Maker's reading festival coverage of Nineteen Nineteen ninety-four above the caption. Who the fuck is this anyway until someone spotted yesterday? The website of the US Agriculture Department listed on its website tariff of tracker the Dacian of why candor which exists only in Marvel comics as the homeland of Black Panther. Although for the right price donald trump could probably be persuaded to appoint you ambassador. It was says the department part of a systems test does does anybody before we actually get into the thing. We're going to discuss. have anything they want to confess about a placeholder copy. Anybody and I don't think I've ever had anything exactly like this. However peace was on published in the Telegraph about the UN with a massive picture of Owen Wilson? Win for lunch after. Just after doing that as well without my phone so that that was stayed on the website for an hour. That's that's my confession seriously. Have you enjoyed a career in journalism. Unblemished any such transgression. Unfortunately the Internet will prove otherwise. But yeah it's all it's all classic fun isn't it really really is I did. I was once saved by editor. Who wrote back about a record review? I'd filed intend tend to look up the name of a senior later asking if the singer's name was really Bill Decatur. I'm very very glad she caught that one that that wasn't his his his real name. I hasten distress. We didn't want to talk about fictional countries. and which one you would move to if you could Daniele. If the option came up where would you rather uh-huh maybe I'm showing my age but I would have to choose non year however non year without misogyny in the massive racism. If that's okay if that could be arranged that would the perfect. I don't think are all the way through the book. I which off them all which which chapters to the the racism misogyny appear in sort of every page actually talking animals and and All kinds of magic and fund so keep that but get rid into the Patriarchy your dream. Destination is a woke noneya Scandinavian on a scheduled scanner. Noneya if you will Marie where would gerow be right now and I actually on that exact note I'm going to say I'm going to stay with Comex. Theme and go with Tennessee. Era The island from wonder woman as the Roland that is the magical kingdom which will only remain magical as long as they manoeuvre steps foot on the island and I think you've just described the no the two women learning to the vehicle things like fighting horseback riding in of seating arrows and stuff In this lovely can of made it two in whether oil and the reason I liked the story very much was it. It is as so much of the trump years actually almost identical a two and onions story from about twenty years ago. The headline of which if I remember rightly was something. The lines of ambassador ambassador to belong suspected of having made country up the idea was that this guy had pitched this to Bill Clinton who food arranged him to become the United States misery. There see I was also going in to suggest Was it Sylvania and Bordier the Fictional Balkan republics underpin several tintin narratives without the racist again. So so basically where we're looking to move to is basically somewhere without the racism and Misogyny Nice chain indeed Marie Cocco and Daniel Appellate. Thank you for joining us in a moment. A little bit more about the current politics of Italy. You're listening to Molecules House view. Do Stay tuned. This is molecules house view. I'm Andrew Miller finally today. Italy's Prime Minister Giuseppi contact may have have made a name for himself as a relatively steady presence at the top of Italy's often chaotic politics but as Kiara Ramallah explains quiet. Competence doesn't always always work. Come Election Day. How do you like your politicians? You want them loud out charismatic bold and memorable or do you prefer them just to get the job done in the background. A recent poll in Italy shows that Italian prime minister jobs at Pecan while often criticized for being in the shadow of the more boisterous far-right Lego leader motto. Salvini is the most popular political leader in the country. His approval rating is currently at forty nine percent. Thirteen percentage points above that of Salvini contact lily. Pleased with the results says the rating demonstrate that acting like crazy easy is not useful a fatigue with almost incessant political chaos is probably the main reason for Italians getting behind the relatively vanilla conti. The West is that approval will translate to future. Electoral success is another matter. The much discussed technocratic government of Mario Monti also at times enjoyed higher approval ratings things than any other political party when it comes to elections Italians on many voters beyond the bell peppers as boards to tend to forget what stability feels like for politicians on the campaign trail acting. Like crazy. Really isn't that much of a crazy option. Thanks to Kiara. That's all for today. Show Monaco's house view is produced by Tom Whole Studio. Managers were stronger and David Steven's coming up at twenty hundred brand run you addition of the urbanized with Andrew Talk Monaco's cousy returns at eighteen hundred London time tomorrow. I'm Andrea Mullah. Thank you for listening.

prime minister Boris Actual Johnson Saint Jeremy Daniele Australia Andrew Miller Monaco United States Murray Labor Party UK President Vladimir Putin Donald Trump Daniele Pellett China president Labour Party Russia Andrew Boris Yeltsin Italy Murray Lecomte Kant
Caroline Miley and Nick Richardson

Published...Or Not

28:37 min | 1 year ago

Caroline Miley and Nick Richardson

"This is a three. Ci podcast and this is published or not. Have you ever bought an original piece of art. Josh yes well. There are a lot of artists looking for buyers and this hasn't changed over time caroline. Molly knows a lot about art artist. What and how they paint? Well come back thanks JEN now Karen. You've got Ralph or Trid. He's your artist artist. So when if you sit this book it's set in the military campaign eighty nine when the British went to Spain Spain and Portugal to help them tron remove Napoleon from that country. We start the book in London. That's where Ralph lives this. Of course no decent recent water Saturday constantly drinking wine porter and AOL. He has an easy manner which helps him with the type of art that he does. So what does he paint his portrait painter own. When he was at the Royal Academy a place that he had to leave due to a disagreement about the payment of fees MHM? He decided to take up portrait painting because it was a huge demand for it and he thought he could make a living at it. Look he's really really not very good at balancing his debts he and of course he is in quite a bit of debt with the gallery all wherever he buys his paints from his clothing makers and there is Lucinda the lovely Lucinda his beautiful mistress with whom he's been deeply clean love and about to propose to this last five years but he can't afford it sorry he's offered a commission acquired substantial commission commission. By whom well by the Horse Guards which is one of those any metric expressions essentially by the army and end. The commission is to paint a lot of generals and that's partly because the generals had a tendency to sort of not necessarily come back from campaign. This is why the book is called artist on campaign so you mentioned in which wall his after but in the acknowledgement you thank the offices and gentlemen of the Napoleon series There are a lovely bunch of people there are of course. Enormous number of enthusiasts pat. The Napoleonic wars internationally and the Napoleon series is the oldest longest running Internet forum and it publishes articles and so on Original documents source documents. There's little people on it to rum. Retired or serving army officers history. Teachers does the terrific bench. I learned an enormous amount from them. Anything that you ever want to know because this is what's happened in the English army. You're over in Portugal to chase the French out of Portugal and out of Spain and it causes Napoleon's of their aft. So we what what I found was the richness in your knowledge of all of these little battles were going on all through those stages artists. Ralph was given a list of generals from the war office and he was told to paint them in order. Yes seniority was how you advanced and Adjourn Rules Day. had a very pronounced sense of honor and of their status and so on and and did get I've been known to resign over a slight ch like being passed over for a plum job. Yes ask well. What I didn't realize very much was that you could buy your way into the army up to a certain level? Yes that was the normal method. The time is called purchasing a commission and It didn't actually seem to work any worse than anything else because us. Yes you you bought. It was something with the younger sons of the gentry. The aristocracy and so on They you bought your buy them a commission in the army army and in pasttime it it gives them something to do. It gave them a job guys no position in society especially got them out of the House and those who were no Goud you'd tended to get passed over a beer to all move sideways into some way with. I couldn't do any harm. Well in London he was. He was also a painting the portrait of Captain Jackson and he got on very well with Captain Jackson and and captain jenks Jackson was with the tillery. He was a well organized fighting man who expected promotion but the promotion of go onto Captain Hammond who was very charming very handsome but without leadership qualities. And there's a rivalry avary that goes on with these story three right through the book. Ralph had a limited time to paint the generals and sometimes there was. There was time when the army moved on but they didn't go anywhere fast. If he can briefly tell us how now an army moves well of course it was a bit like the weakest link in the chain. The army could only move at the pace of the slowest part of it. which was the ox carts carrying the dragging their impediment with them? Because the army took its house with it when it moved not just people galloping about on horses and so on and the cavalry and so on those were the Royal Horse Artillery Korea which kept in Jackson is an ornament and but there was also paymasters the engineers the sappers. And of course a nam-yong Tom Young campaign at that time also had as think modern mentioned somewhere the camp followers the women who are enamored of if a particular soldier a nurse million of the army as well as the the official wives their children their servants the boys who cut the grass for the mules and their dependence. It just went on and on and on and so they they attend Mile March. Yes yes was probably a match but the generals were not cain to make time to do a sitting for Ralph so he had to use his charm and inside influence Lawrence and this charm is also used on some of the local ladies and at term of the time comes up a night with Venus Venus a lifetime with mercury. What's that that is about authority expression of the period? Well of course a beautiful young woman was Venus. It's been well classically educated. At least to some degree. The treatment for syphilis at the time was the mercury treatment which sure since discovered didn't actually cure it and it was very traumatic so that was a joke of the time. Yes Ralph is constantly short of money as well all All of those in the army everything was provided food and accommodation would if he can call a ban accommodation accepting salary. And this was really something that happened at this time with the wages the money well absolutely because among the people in that enormous train following the army round was the paymasters department with its heavily-guarded chests of specie or actual coinage because the Portuguese and some would not accept paper money in other words bills on the banks so they had to take this money to other places to to to changes back into coinage so to pay Komo mental and that was true absolutely absolutely true. The paymaster Kerry cherished of money around on John. Moore's retreat to Khurana. When things things got very very bad I had to throw the Spanish silver dollars over the cliff so the French show a following them? Didn't get them well to get money. Jackson and Rowe organized organized. The Grand Royal Hoarser tillery writes with rival. Captain Hammond having the best horse. What one of the reasons they also needed money money was to buy the personal possessions of Army Friends Killed in action and this was probably true? Took yes after every battle Well a lot of your friends and associates would have been killed the regiment or they company would hold an option of their effects. Fix and then I would send money back to the wives dependence family and so forth it was yes sad but yes well look. We're talking about sad but there's a lot of humor in this because Ralph had many adventures some through his own stupidity. He was taken prisoner by the French at one stage and jailed with a tourist and the tattooists said all arm okay. They're not going to do anything to me. which really surprised estimate well as she said? I think to to Ralph Monograph. You may shoot me. No they cannot spare me. I'm the regimental tattooist due to its French. French soldiers unlike the English had earrings will earrings which at that time was in much more ordinary and they also had regimental tattoos and of the regimental crest or whatever rather like the way it used to the sailors having tattoos yes so since he was the regimental tattooist. Oh tattooing toying lead suspect to the artwork and what I really loved was the artistic description of the portraits matching the personalities of the Generals Ralph's ideas of the placement of this being God work he was going to paint doesn't exist only in my imagination. Afraid eight although there are works along those lines of course the big group portrait and there is a group portrait. I think of Willington conferring with his generals so that type of thing was very much the official portrait. which is something? We don't have much these days that that portrait painting may not be true but his desire to get paintings back to. Mrs Humphry now you. You said that she's Queen of London's print Saleh's patroness of the arts. It was like the illustrated news of the time and that is true she existed. Oh absolutely humphry was the doyen. She had a relationship with one of the other one of the great caricaturists of the age. Gil Ray who was a lodger in the house us and so when Ralph goes to see his prints Rearranges them so they're in front of Gil Ray so that attract the attention inch not buyer but yes engravings of popular subjects were enormously popular and it was a way that people could Have an image of well before photographic reproduction like we can get a poster of Monet's water lilies well. I thoroughly enjoyed this this introduction back again into the art of the Joji and time as Caroline's last book competition was so we have artist on compaign. How would a dense chew? But charming and talented artist cope with Patriot. Painting portraits in a war situation Caroline Arlen Miley has written with knowledge and Huma in artist Dan campaign that's fascinating terms of the images in the in the period rid in which the history is set and the images chosen to represent that because some of what I'm looking at looks another representational images to represent a particular time. Speaking of which the time is nineteen fifty six. The is the historical stargell period. I'm looking at and it was the year. Melbourne hosted the Olympics. But just how significant was that year in shaping Melbourne and for that matter Australia now nick. Richardson Explores that concept in his work. Appropriately entitled Nineteen Fifty six excite. Nick welcome back to three. Thanks very much for having me back. It's a pleasure now. Look this notion of the Olympics is in many ways a conceit because because what surrounds that moment in time speaks to Australia's development and place in the world so what night you choose nine hundred fifty six. It's an interesting thing isn't it because there there is this hardy view that the nineteen fifties in particular this kind of sleepy decade especially in Australia with Prime Prime Minister Robert Menzies presiding over us as we all kind of walk with allies half-closed into the dazzling lot of the nine hundred sixty S. Well and in fact Paul Keating the former prime minister say you know it was a decade that we suffered from a near lethal dose of fogies them so there for instantly instantly for me. It was something like wasn't exactly like that was something else going on here that we might have missed and so I started to peel back some liars and sure enough fifty six which had kind of been given a kind of a sense of benchmark because of the Olympics but also the arrive live TV suddenly once. I started. Go deeper than that. There were all these other things that seemed to rush out of the bottle. We're going to look at some of those other things. I mean just the way you described Melbourne at at that time Australia. A closer look revealed a city aspiring to be cosmopolitan but not quite reaching them. A feeling of dryness futility the loan leanness provided us all right. The future was never more blurred kind of barrier between us and the world of Australia strange hostile world whereas was future proved we were the underdogs so it really was a back in the fifty years it was. It was a sense that we weren't quite sure where we were. Uh we didn't have a great sense of the rest of the world and bear in mind. There was still this great vulnerability and Pine and trauma that it had been the carry over from the end of World War Two so there was. There was a desire for something new but perhaps not the realization of had to achieve that. Well I want to start in much unusual place really given them a momentous events that were occurring around that something a little more domestic right. Lola summer of the Seventeenth Dolon we can move onto salinger's catcher in the Rye the significance of the dull. Come well the dull was extraordinarily significant and the reason why is literal and metaphorical sense. It was apply the Australia discovered its voice and I think that the classic instance of this is up until that time a lot of Australian stage work was inhabited bye-bye people who adopted English accents and indeed. The kind of the theatrical Canon was very much derived from the UK tradition. Not only was it. Shakespeare Pity but we had visitors like a simple phone. Ralph Richardson Laurence Olivier. who were coming over to perform what marked the dull apart was not only? Was it a play about Australians and Australians at that time but the director who was an Englishman John Sumner. Sumner actually had to drill the Australian actors into adopting the the Australian wife speaking which was it seems seems kind of hard to believe these days that they had to be encouraged to do it but some there's advice to the actors which included lawler was. Remember that kind cut. It sounds different to someone one whose lives in suburban Melbourne. Think about what the differences are between those two and let's try and capture it but then notion of an Australian voice voice speaks to the identity that was emerging or developing at the time. Absolutely true and one of the interesting things was the not in Melbourne when lawless scripted captured the the Australian vernacular. The crowds laughed and loved it and responded in concert that gives you a fair indication that at that moment we were receptive to the idea and the plight as we know now became a runaway success. But at the same time we're literature literature was concerned you had the comptroller of censorship and so- Salinger's catcher in the ride was Hannah's insidious book side it was. It was kind of an extraordinary development that this book which kind of already had reasonable circulation and distribution and had been released in the US several years earlier appease in a book book. A box of books. That's on its way to a young man in regional Victoria and the sense of plucks catcher in the Rye out of the box and says this might have some literary merit but it's verging blasphemous in the language is not suitable and I'm banning it but that friction then in terms of on the one hand trying to develop the voice and at the same time the institution saying no you. You can't express or speak or there are certain limitations to that voice. Well I think you know if if you kind of look at history through time you'll see that they are always forces pushing and pulling one coming in one direction and one going in the other and I think this kind of characterization of it is entirely appropriate for the doll and and the the censorship around Catcher catcher in the Rye moving onto another point food glorious food but all of a sudden the Olympics and the arrival of or the expected arrival of all these people from around the world poses a little while not a little rather be probably a huge problem. There there are a couple of things that they tried to do about it. They they had subcommittee to look after the catering at the Olympic Village in particular. This is an Olympics which we'll have the highest proportion of Asian countries competing in it and I could not find a cook couldn't find a cook anywhere so the games starting in November. It wasn't until August that they were at the end of August. I would secure some Kooks from from shipping lines around the world who could actually turn up in moment and deliver that Kuzina but it speaks to that then that notion of Australia's it's not just the world awareness of Australia but Australia's awareness and oh absolutely true. Yeah Yeah we were. We were struggling to get a concept of what foreign look like and this. WHO's one of the interesting things I think that in the in the evening dive the games the Russian Athletes Vladimir Kuts Won a gold medal and and Bruce how the photographer who was there who I interviewed for the Book Remembers. He remembers being there and how the crowd was so supportive and and the surge of applause and admiration for quences achievement. Brusett Mason at the hands of standing up on the back of my neck. Just telling you about it and he said it was an extraordinary thing. I think what we make of that is that he was someone who was from Russia in the middle of the Cold War and in fact he didn't look too much different. The person sitting next to you at the M. C. J. Well this thing speaks to a much broader issue or `sensitive the awareness all the political framework of the die where looking at a period post World War Two and then the rise of communism's like insight that politic. You've got a domestic thing so to speak in terms of Melbourne Olympics. What's going on but there are so many other influences impacting well and the the the communist theme was so large I dominate? And obviously we're right in the midst of the Cold War for Australia. The Petrov affair was only two years earlier so there was a great sensitivity around all of that is zero was basically working round the clock to make sure that especially especially around the Olympics. who was coming in? Who might be interested in staying After the Games and how you would manage that and of course. There's there's is all this saints into National Saints bearing down on the Olympics themselves because all of the international broader international situation that leads to blood in the water indeed indeed it does and and If there's one motif I think that probably sums up the Maly picks. It's the blood in the water the water polo match the famous confrontation between the Hungarian team. And the Russians which of course could in the immediate aftermath of the Hungarian uprising. which the savviest? It's its head crushed with such devastating brutality. But it's a same that has played out since then as well. I mean the Olympics. In Russia Russia were boycotted. And such like. So it's it's a vehicle for political expression. Well it is in the thing to remember about Melvin which people oh forget is that it was. The first Olympics ever affected by political boycott so seven countries didn't come and majority of those were because of what had happened in Hungary but China pulled out because of Taiwan's presence so they were so this was off the off the bat this was an Olympic already affected by international tensions. Yeah I'm just trying to place that in perspective of all the Olympics proud of that but of course there was the Berlin Olympics. It's it's being. Has it lost posted while it's lost. Its amateur status. And it's become a political too much. Is it become a political to only go on that now will then now well I think now there is no agreement that could be made that fifty six wasn't equally pivotal in terms of its its political dimensions. What I think is interesting about about all of this? Is that that. Despite all of that the reputation of the Games itself was is the friendly games. And that I think says a lot about how the two weeks intense competition and general goodwill around the gyns actually suffused and overlaid and triumphed either the political tensions that had preceded it to the point. Where the IRC chief executive ivory brundage suggested that he should get the United Nations peace middle for for what it occurred in Melbourne? Have we lost. That isn't a sense of innocence. Have we lost it can we. Are we still holding onto that notion of that friendliness in Australia. I think it's a bit more. We've become more guarded unlinked. That would be the word I would use. I think perhaps little more suspicious. I think we're potentially welcoming than we were in Nineteen fifty-six aspires that innocence reflects a certain kind of maturity in its way. Perhaps it's not as admirable as that since all of openness that we used to have This was the era of television introduction. Television Vision Ustralia as well some match those to the Olympics and television and in many wise. I'm I'm thinking. Also geography in terms of the impact television had in in communicating or showing strategy world. Well the interesting thing about it was that there weren't enough sits in TV sets in Australia at the time. Time to actually make make the Olympics I of valuable Tool in terms of that body was instrumental in starting conversations between the Olympic Organization and television networks in particular the ones in the US so that then created a monster unstop which became a an absolute feature of of the Modern Olympics? But was it a tool. By which strategy could be same. Yeah maybe wouldn't have thing but certainly there was. There was film that we might and certainly there was a lot of A lot of that transmitted overseas and a lot of it was very rematch about The games themselves A lot of the pre publicity was more about Melbourne and Australia But but in the in the in the the Olympics with tight focus of the international coverage another sort of political ripple around it Maralinga so in nineteen fifty Robert Menzies was approached by the UK. Prime Minister at late to save Australia would would host for want of a better word new. UK Okay nuclear tests by nine fifty six. These had gone from being off the coast of Western Australia into the the dead heart of Australia. Australia at a place called Maralinga interesting when we say the date hat but it did actually have a living culture i. It had an extraordinary very rich indigenous culture and there were two main who were given the task of identifying. How many aboriginal? Australians were are there and how to protect them again. It speaks to ignorance to main campus. That sort of range of area and that's like it was gross negligence as much as anything else but that was the political era of the talk is doing his bit for the Empire quite right. What did the Olympics help us? Step away from empire. Well I think it did very much so I think it gave us a sense of that. The rest of the world wasn't to radically different from us. After after all and that maybe maybe we could actually engage with him on in an ongoing. Why now a last question because we're going to have to wrap it up and there are so many others defectors an on all sorts of things occurring in this book? It's a fascinating history containing it all because it's not just about the Olympics. It's just about science. That was going on at the time. Yeah so it's it's hard to do that. But I think the approach I took was to identify several key. People who had roles and represented certain social developments and certain things that were going on at the time and the coalition crossover in Melbourne at the end end of nine hundred thousand six. Is there nine hundred fifty seven is there a sequel in other words. Is there another history. You're working on Look nothing quite like nine fifty six. I've been talking to nick. Richardson Ivette Nineteen fifty-six but so so much more The bookies entitled night and fifty six and it's from scribe and I was talking with Caroline Molly about her book artist on compare impair a campaign which is also available as an e book and look forward with Google artist on campaign. And you'll find Carolyn. You've been listening to publish or not on three. See you've been listening to a podcast produced in the studios of independent community radio. The station three CR in Melbourne Australia. The more information go to all the ws dot three dot org dot e._d._U..

Olympics Australia Ralph Melbourne army UK London Ralph Richardson Melbourne Portugal Captain Jackson Spain Caroline Molly Captain Hammond Rye AOL Russia Nick US
What is Russia up to in Australia?

The Signal

20:30 min | 3 weeks ago

What is Russia up to in Australia?

"This is an abc podcast. Australians have by now become used to the idea that china is trying in a few different ways to wield influence here. What would russia one with us. I'm an schlaug yet. And i'm steven smiley and today on the signal. What the kremlin's goals in australia and how it's trying to achieve them would you mind terribly introducing yourself for us. Sure i'm sure nichols reporter with four corners so shortly speaking to us because four corners has been working for months now on an investigation into a russian influence campaign in australia. Not quite of variety seen in the two thousand sixteen. Us election but in a way that is nevertheless very real. How interested ease russia in australia. That's a great question is one of the first questions that we actually asked before we even got stuck into this story and the overwhelming response. We got from people who have been studying. Russia for many many years is that on the one hand russia's interested in everywhere every country in the world because there's potential opportunities and threats for them everywhere but in particular australia is part of what's known as the five is intelligence network which is not a strategy new zealand canada and great britain such a network of intelligence sharing the suggestion that Australia has direct line in as part of its alliance with the united states is potentially very attractive to a country like russia and even china but probably for the same reason insofar as if they can gain intelligence here than it potentially allows them to tap into that extremely valuable motherlode of western intelligence so they've had looked south and thought. Oh maybe he is awake. Link in this is what we'll try but it's been happening for decades the kgb. Spy stories abound in australia during the cold. War though kgb operatives unmasked in the australian government service you know in the fifties and sixties house of representatives in canberra. By prime minister. Robert menzies gave details of a soviet spy ring and australia. Vladimir petrov man official name whose homes in camera and told the full story later kingsford smith airport in sydney crowds gathered to watch. Petrov's wife liv for right so this is not in that sense a new story. What's new for us is more the soft power or what. Some people call coercive power influence on the ground. And it's less cuthbert and far more overt than we've ever seen before okay so short answer ed. They have always been interested. Mostly because of our intelligence ties to western powers like the us and the uk but also they're just that kind of country right and interest intensified someone around the time the dow then prime minister tony. Abbott said these Look to shut front. Mr putin You bet you are You bet prime minister tony. Abbott has promised to shut front will violently tackle vladimir putin when they meet at the g. Twenty summit over russia's responsibility for the image seventeen crash over ukraine this summer in which thirty strains died. Australians were murdered by russian backed rebels using russian supplied equipment We are very unhappy about this crash. Site is not far from the russian border in an area where the rebels hold. Sway is fueling speculation. That a rebel launcher felt the malaysian airliner. Us officials have said they believe. The plane was hit by a surface to air missile. The last time a lot of australians would have noticed australia and russia intersecting in a headline would have been the moh seventeen disaster. How does that figure in russia's view of australia very heavily Particularly according to a one long-term russia's strategic analyst by the name of mark galliotti who's an analyst with a a cold the russian united services institute in london and you know mark galliotti explains very clearly why image. Seventeen change the whole game for australia russian relations. I mean up to this point. Russian straining relations at very much been about trade and cultural contact suddenly became much much more conflictual and suddenly the australian Very much pushing for independent deductions for justice to be done and that made any way australia. Problem for the kremlin and the kremlin's natural response is when it sees a problem. It makes problems back in return. Okay so. Russia has an undeniable interest in wielding influence in australia. And they've got their own way of going about it with china it's so overt. I mean they pump huge sums of cash into our political parties and then sort of demand those political parties toth the chinese line on particular foreign policy issues. Russia just doesn't do that so one of the first things we did was dive into the political donation system whereas all the russian cash. It's not there. Okay great britain or england specifically is currently dealing with its own russian influence crisis. Last year they produced a massive report. Parliamentary report into russian influence in british politics. And it found huge sums of money going to politics and also huge investments into real estate here not so much. The why it's happening here is very much through the more traditional soft power or coercive power mechanisms whereby you just count the providing narrative the prevailing anti russian narrative all the prevailing narrative that criticizes vladimir. Putin there is a system that putin is promoting cold. The russian world risky mia and it talks about where ever there are russian speaking people in the world then they must be loyal to russia and australia has got a big russian diaspora and so that falls very clearly into that. Category there are lots of proxy groups. Russian proxy groups that emanate out of russia that set themselves up within international diasporas including australia. And that was really the focus for us on how these groups are trying to influence australian policy. Yes so these russian patriot groups. You're talking about I have to say the most incredible names could have run through a couple of groups so well the first one. I think the best time actually is the double headed eagles society with just sounds intrinsically evil physically able but also improbable and like what's wrong with the eagle eagle. So i'm comes out of an imperial sort of russian coat of arms. Basically has the two eagles looking in the direction this extensively an historical society. It's monica society. That was set in russia a few years ago by a big wealthy russian telecommunications tycoon what we discovered is that chapter of this double headed eagles society which is ultra pro russia. Pro-putin has set up in australia of all places and has started to embark upon its own propaganda war in australia. The agenda of our branch is to promote russian culture to educate people to dismiss this misconception about russia. The other one. That's been around a little longer in australia. And some of your listeners might have come across these guys. The australian cossacks the cossacks lived under the zayas during the civil war fought on the czars side during the russian civil war. 'cause they lost said they were dispersed around the globe including in australia and they sort of traditional horsemen allman Sword wielding cossacks and. They've set up in australia. Okay with a chapter led by a block by the name of siemian boy called who is not rushing but is of russian extraction and he talked to us about why the cossacks exist in australia and what they happened today. The purpose of the cossacks. Strata used to preserve traditions culture values and also to promote pro russian sentiment. I've been accused of that. But i'll say it on camera. We have no problems. Admitting we rushing out job as russian patriots and this is what i call up on my compatriots to do all. The time is to to be mobilized than be active in defending russia. Some people in call him relation and so forth and we can't do much to help russia. We believe that it's not enough just to be rushing. You must support russia. You must active and you should defend the russia. Okay so there's the cossacks and the double headed eagles tidy. Yes and then. Then there are the night sky and wolves. I'm so glad you are the known as putin's angels and they are russia's oldest and best known motorcycle group they they kind of look on the outside. Like the hells angels if you like. But they are very clear that they are not an outlaw. Motorcycle gang like the hill's angels are internationally ended in australia and in fact in australia designated as an outlaw motorcycle gang but they love russia and they spend a lot of their time riding together to mock glorious russian military victories from the first and second world war and we spent a little bit of time with the strenuous chapter of the night wolves which is really only establishing itself. Now it's been around since about two thousand fifteen and these guys that they talked to us about their love of russia again. They want to counter the prevailing narrative about russia which is prevalent in the west including in australia. We drawn because the black so obviously comes joined the club and listen the bucket. That's the first thing will common interest so would under drugs round weapons. Were under any other stuff. We just want to show the world russia. Whatever whatever you wanna call it. That russia domestic history. We're trying to keep it up. I have to admit when i read your script. I absorbed it as like a bicycle club. I wouldn't like all right so all. These groups are big fans of putin and russia. More generally but they have any concrete links to the kremlin. Yes so sean says in the case of the double headed eagle society. The answer is yes. There are some fascinating links between these organizations. And poten and the kremlin at and he's in a circle for example. The australian branch of the double headed eagle society. The to australian hades valeri malinowski. And siemian boyko were both appointed. By a blog cold leonid ra- shit and leonid reshetnikov is a well-known former general in the russian intelligence service. And it's kind of well known concept that you daren't ever really retire from the russian intelligence service right exactly. Putin has actually said that. There's no such thing as a retired russian spy. You're always required to fulfill that role even even if you're not working twenty four seven and leonid reshetnikov visa Todd spy but Yeah he appointed. These two is when he was executive director of the double headed eagle society in russia. Initially i hear about these russian patriot groups and you know this kind of broad that they're seeking to the russian agenda but there are just so far off from russia at least to most australians. I don't think there's a strong anti eu russian movement that that visible. I mean i'm confused aren't just sort of screaming into the void over here. What's very much. So i tend to agree with you. But i guess we asked same question of people who've been observing these types of proxy groups spring up all over the world most of them springing up in former soviet states and their mission is to try and convince the population and this happened in ukraine with crimea to reclaim their russian identity and joined back to the russian to button to mother russia to the russian federation. Of course. they're not trying to do that here. Yes that makes more sense as a strategy. But you're never gonna convince the stallions to join mother russia exactly so at the moment. It appears that they are simply there to try and build. That's sort of sentiment in the russian diaspora and when you realize. The size of the russian asked estimated to be around thirty million people. Globally all of whom can still vote in russian elections. You start to understand why the kremlin might be interested in keeping them on board. And then there's the financial side of things so sean says there's actually quite a lot of russian investment in australia particularly in the mining and rivals industries what we focused on four corners is a business interest owned by a very well known. Russian oligarch cold oleg deripaska. Who's very close. Let me putin the russian president Deripaska has a big shareholding in a big aluminium company called roussel Which in turn owns a chunk of a queensland bauxite refinery called queensland lula limited and when the u. s. government slapped sanctions on oleg dera pasqua in twenty eighteen because of how close to me putin His company embarked on these big lobbying campaign to the us to try and get those sanctions lifted. So that rusalka operating sir. Aluminium business and that lobbying campaign ended up coopting trying to co-opt the australian government into assisting electra pasqua in lifting the getting those sanctions lifted because of the interest in australia. So they sent letters to the then ambassador in washington. Joe hockey saying look you know. Roussell owns twenty percent of l. If they sanctioned stay on. There's gonna be job losses in queensland and there's going to be economic damage to australia so help us out right to these key decision makers on the sanctions panel in the us treasury and convinced them to lift. The sanction sells a pretty audacious campaign from these washington lobbyists and nothing to say that australia deed anything the urging of that lobbying is there so joe haughey's told four corners that he doesn't recall the letter that was sent by these lobbyists but he reckons that even if he received he wouldn't have acted on it because of who dare pass correze and the situation at the time while we have discovered through f. Is that there was a flurry of activity at the height of this. Lobbying campaign from australian diplomats in washington seeking a minimum with the people who are making the sanctions decisions trying to better understand them. So that's the closest we really got. But it suggests that australia was khanna concerned by these sanctions which might be explained. By the fact that queensland alumina ltd must have been affected by them so sean has been focusing on two main spheres of possible russian influence in australia. There these budding and relatively nationalist groups and then there were russian business interests which could arguably translate into political influence. Yes so the question is it. Should we at this point. Be at all worried. It reminds us that just because putin. Is this distant. Figure and russia is so far away that we are of interest to the russian government as some of the experts that we interviewed reminded us in our program that we need to be at least on a lured to to make sure that this doesn't become something bigger and more of a threat Then it might be at the moment. Putin sees such organizations has significant asset in pursuing his particular goals whether they be domestic goals or foreign policy goals. You can use the russian diaspora the russian community to seek to build your influence and then use that influence is to be hoped to shift australia's policies. I think one of the most striking moments in your programme. Sean was when you had one of the members of these patriot groups essentially making the case. That australia is kind of a soft target. Totally in simeon boycott. Says he loves the idea. That australia is multicultural. He loves the idea that we have respect for all types of people from all types of background an and the acknowledgement. And even the pride that australia takes in. Having all of those people form the fabric of australia but he sees that as an opportunity and in fact he tells us that it lets him get away with things that he would not be able to do in some other countries. Australia is a very good place. If you want to promote foreign agenda my colleagues in russia when they hear about where we here they're shocked mean. We walked through camera. Middle of camera thirty quarterbacks in uniform with the russian flag marching into russian military much and when the russians in russia here but this say could you imagine if you know an australian detachment was too much dan red square on authorized in to american military much or something like that the impossible. But that's what makes australia unique. I think that's everything i just have to say. I mean apart from thank you. I'm so so impressed with the way that you've been able to remember and rattle off names. I don't know the stumbled once. It's really impressive. Four months of practice. That's the signal today. If you wanna see shawn story in full it's on. Abc tv tonight at eight thirty and after that up on ivy. And we'll catch by by. You've been listening to an abc podcast. Discover more great. Abc podcasts live radio and exclusives on the abc listen app.

russia australia prime minister tony mark galliotti putin schlaug steven smiley kgb kremlin Vladimir petrov kingsford smith airport Mr putin russian intelligence service leonid reshetnikov china russian united services instit Abbott eagles us monica society
The story of the Bible in Australia

Conversations

51:50 min | Last month

The story of the Bible in Australia

"This is an abc. Podcast the books of the bible have enjoyed for thousands of years. Partly because the stories they tell vivid and strange and languages so compelling does the creation of the world and everything in its stories from ancient bellona egypt of the faeroese and the roman empire. The flooded cities are destroyed. Someone gets swallowed by a whale. People are possessed by hordes of demons and then released often and one figure in particular preaches form of radical kindness. He's crucified by the romans. And then resurrected from the dead and at the end of the bible. There's a wild fever dream of an apocalypse. The bible is arguably the most influential book in the history of the world but it was written by people utterly unaware of the existence of the great southern land. It'll be living on the far side of the world. And the people who were living here had their own stories and their own ideas of how the world came into being mirrored of like isn't a story in university. Meredith hosts saul search on. Abc radio national meredith's book is called the bible in australia and it tells the story of what happened when the holy book of the christians was brought to these shores and how it's ideas and stories continue to influence the way people think sometimes without them even realising it i'm meredith hiree chid now despite shrinking church attendance in australia. Discussion of the bible can be a really fruit subject today. Tell me the story of your experience of the twenty nine hundred nine. Prime minister's literary awards please meredith. That was one of the most surreal days of my life. I'm not normally in. The habit of attending literary events let alone awards ceremonies. But there i was i found myself in cambra on non wall land being welcomed there by an elder for these very strange ceremony also not in the habit of spending time with the prime minister but he was kind of popping in and out of the room to vote and making a speech that kept getting interrupted but i was there for the australian history prize which to my surprise and delight. I won for this book for this book for the bible. It was amazing. I'm still astonished. And i'm still astonished as you can hear. I had this strange day made the prime minister. But i was there as an author as a historian. Kind of this is my big break and in the middle of accepting all of these. I checked my social media feed which was a rookie era and rolling in of course with the tweets with hash tags. Get religion out of our parliament's because the association of the big scary b-be would bible with prime minister even though he had nothing to do with the awards in any practical way meant that the book and the stories. I've been telling it became momentarily at least the focus for i think very palpable anxieties. That way we all recognize. We all lived through the royal commission and hurt its findings. We've all sane the toxic forms of political religion in our own country and also overseas. I mean we're in the aftermath of the insurrections on capitol hill in the us and some of those anxieties expressed in relation to my both ma. This is a terrible thing. How can this book of won an award. This just the prime minister right. So twitter was the pay out pentecostalist. Prime minister has has made sure the award went to some god was at the idea. I think so which obviously aren't may very well. I think there are reasons for concern around some forms of public religion. I think we all know that in one way or another some of the messages you record along the lines of i m speechless. Who the judges captain's pick years. The bible perhaps the single most plagiarized and self-contradictory work of fiction ever written by anyone since dawn of language quietly philosophy after doesn't include clear reasons for excluding all religion from matters of national importance. It's worthless than toilet paper now at this point none of these people have read your book and the prime minister. I didn't think it'd measurable promising to rate at some point. So that run well. He said that he needs his own remarks. But i don't know we're not in contact so that doesn't turn the bible can be really still inflammatory subject even even now when churches are shuttering across australia. I i mean. I think australia the place that coined the phrase bible basher there is a deep strain of our culture. That is wary of preachy. Moralizing types than. I think we are all familiar with that. I think we've lived enough to say that it's very political but also deeply personal it's really triggering for a lot of people and at the same time for others. It's a transformative text. it's it's not easy. It doesn't fit in a box and a lot of us. Have our own stories our own opinions and what i was really interested in is well. What have a strahl leans over the last two hundred and fifty years or so actually made of a ticks. That came from another time another place that itself is diverse and as you said strange we'd compelling gripping and yet doesn't fit in a box and i wanted to lean into the grand conversation that australians have been having about this very beguiling book you say the bible is come to a straight wins in three main forms. There's the globalizing bible the cultural bobbled which is compelling stories and then there's the theological bible and this is more the theological you're talking them. It's more than just a collection of compelling stories. it's the literal word of god. And it's the instrument of personal salvation. Is that what gives it. Its urgency for people like your parents. I mean literal. It's the word of god but even now understand. What does that mean in. All kinds of different ways i wanted to use those three different modes the global the cultural the theological to kind of say. You know we use this bible as if we all know what that means but actually that is unstable. It doesn't really exist in a static way. The bible to my generation with a smartphone app is not the same as the bible at james cook might have had on the endeavor or the one that in the creole language in the northern territory that is being read by indigenous communities. It's certainly not the same as the one. Augustine was rating when he was imagining great. Southland is impossible. Because adam and eve certainly couldn't have traveled that far what i wanted to keep in the foreground is the instability and the openness and unpredictability of this text. And yet the reason. Why it's i think it's potency endures. Even beyond say. I think it's nearest rival for cultural influence in australia's probably shakespeare but people don't try to been their lives. Say to the vision of the world that you might make in hamlet or in one of those plays it's not something you kind of take to be authoritative in the way that people take a sacred text but the bible and other sacred texts particularly the bible in australia has been the focus of whole communities institutions that have normalized replicated particular understandings of that takes as the basis for life together and that's had incredible power and people do ben their own decisions and morality and vision of the world to what they take to be the meaning of that that text and all all complexities. You're the earliest christians. Living in the roman empire the middle east and the mediterranean view of the world. You can see them. The roman maps of the time where the world was made up of three continents europe and there was agia and there was africa that like spokes on a wheel and rotten. The middle of the world is jerusalem so could any of them conceived of there being this far flung southern land on the other end of the world. I mean the role of the scriptures in shaping the european imagination is. You almost can't overestimate that. But even just to calibrate your geography with the stories that you read in. The bible is a european habit of mind that has over centuries being absolutely transformative for a place like these from jerusalem. Pretty much as you can possibly get and so augustine for example one of the early church fathers imagines the great southland and things. Well it probably doesn't exist. How can they antiquities. Because adam and eve couldn't scholley have traversed such a wide ocean. I mean he's reading the bible in a certain way but of course europeans do eventually attempt that very expedition and when they do they bring bibles they encounter the people and places of the south pacific and i think i reading books journals and the reactions to them you get kind of two different takes some of them go on. My goodness there is so much. That's not envisioned in the biblical text. That maybe it's not the universal word we took the today. Maybe it's actually much more culturally confined than we've been led to believe and it plays into the skeptical questioning that we see in the eighteenth century enlightenment period. Lots of the offices on the first fleet have that kind of take in a radio. New christians of byzantium. They saw the lands on the right. Stick with a great riders. Were the equivalent of the dauth rocky. In game of thrones they fulltime lanes with badlands and i was untouched by god like they were almost almost outside of god's creation there were places that were completely godless and badlands. So when you. James cook arriving on the east coast of australia and he's going to bible he's also got joseph banks on board. Who's a botanist is going all this new these new plants. We've never seen the like of before. Look at all these animals. We've never seen the lock them before. But the british make of a strategy did they think somehow outside of god's creation or i just wonder what you know of how it disrupted their idea of what the universe was. It definitely rocked that boat. A lot of their assumptions had to be reassessed like the european encounter with the south. Pacific is a major. It's a moment of real rupture for europeans and the ways of understanding known as well as for the indigenous communities they they mate but the badlands idea certainly circulating. But there's also in that period an idea of the noble savage that. Maybe i mean tahiti for example this is actually. This is the good life. Uncorrupted this idea of an essential. Humanity that critiques european society opposite of abed lance in other words. Let's said the and that's the thing about the scriptural texts bible maine's it comes from the great for bibliotheca library. It's a library of books that gives multiple accounts of most things right. It's not a simple text and are humans corrupted and fallen or are humans in good. I mean you get both these narratives in the text and your pains drawer on different parts of at take different ideas and sometimes you know these are people who need to be converted and saved their heathen so to speak or maybe they're actually the purest form of human these narratives. They get taken up by colonists and applied to australia in in really diverse ways. But that always ultimately legitimate european colonization like it never goes to the extent of saying maybe we should just go back to europe and stay there through practical silence on the first fleet arrived in on the east coast of australia. In sydney of but were there evangelists on board as well with bibles there was at least one the poor young chaplain and his new wife. Richard johnson he had the perhaps on enviable task of preaching to the convicts who went obviously famous for their morality and hey brought the first cargo of bibles that we know what not just one bible. A cargo bibles. I've seen his. It's still around. It's a very heavily used working kind of book but he did bring one hundred full bibles some new testaments and lots of tracks that i assume quoted from the bible about why shouldn't lie steal or swear your head of case ordered as god's word for him. He was an evangelical who took it as a word of life award of salvation. A word of forgiveness led his. He was pretty demoralized by the lack of support he had among the people around him for that particular vision. He talks about how he gave out the books that he brought with him. But some people call them up for wastepaper as toilet paper. Some traded their bibles for glass of grog. Which you know there must have been someone who would make trade on the other side right. Who give away the be to by the bible but that wasn't what comforted him. He was pretty demoralized. I think by. I guess the disjunction between how hey understood what what it meant and how the people were saved the bible the bible that's brought by the pilgrims to north america as opposed to the bible. That's brought here on the bible itself. What the bible is going to be used for years in the pilgrims who went to north america was there to build new jerusalem of was to get away from the wickedness of promised land of the promise land. That's what does the bible then when this is. Sometimes i mean i. We see the discourse of hell among especially places of secondary punishment. So for convicts who re-offending they get sent to macquarie harbour or someone like that that discourse of hell i think it's biblical idea but broader than that. We say that we say descriptions of australia as a side of exile quite commonly. We sometimes for pastoralists. His shape will making them very rich. The promised land for them. Most commonly we say australia described as a wilderness. Which was an id that people more embedded in an enlightenment. Tradition also picked up these idea of transformation that nature could be put to good use made productive. That's the language of the time that idea of a wilderness blossoming as rose. Which is how it's disgusting. The book of isaiah rat is very very important to the project. Virgin land it's not wilderness. Tyrannize get the idea from obvious. The idea of the land is empty when they get when they when they arrive well. It's a little bit complicated. But i think a particular interpretation of that line in the creation story in the book of genesis where where god instructs adam and eve to replenish the earth and subdue it interpreted by some europeans to main that if you subdue the land by which they meant their own forms of agriculture european forms of agriculture. That gave you a right to it. As property. And john locke and people like that those kinds of theorists. Help kind of articulate this view but the idea that you were leaving in step with god's vision for how the world should be. Could your text like that to buttress. Something like european agriculture expense of indigenous land ownership and farming practices. So i think there are certain biblical interpretations that are deeply complicit in that kind of colonizing narrative the settlers australia. And that's actually one reason. Why the bible and what people here have done with it is really relevant now where the people are going to church or not. So what do we do with narratives that site. This was an empty land. Only certain ways of using it are ordained by god. I mean indigenous. Christians have come right back at that and said this is toxic theology. He's another rating that. That's why i think the interpretation really matters you mentioned earlier that a lot of the conflicts rashida a bible by this clergyman when arrived on the fatal shore of sydney cove and some exchanged for grog. What was it the think made people want to take the bible also to do that. Exchange to actually say i would rather have the bible then a couple of grog. I think we need to remember that. It's not like they were all these other books you could you know. Walk down to your local straight library. Read on netflix. Nine nine not even not even not even an abc in the absence of the national broadcaster is true. I mean the story of journal and the whale or david and glide. It's pretty i mean. They were talking donkeys. I mean i don't want to trivialize it. But i mean convicts on the long voyage out. Who often like literally there. Because they were criminal found a great way to relieve the boredom and the tedium of that kind of life in in the stories of the bible. And i think anybody who's ever actually had a beautiful good luck will find plenty that's salacious or surprising or shocking even or perhaps comforting or otherwise even inspiring suddenly parts the bubble of wildly entertaining and inspiring to you discovered that were convicts who had biblical tattoos. What book formed these tech. This is a time when a lot of people couldn't raid as fluently as most people can now and the bible of circulating almost pictorial. Almost like graphic bibles the evangelicals of that period wanted the working class to encounter the word of god and so produce these kind of pictorial bibles that became in the eighteenth and early nineteenth century. Something like the tattooist handbook. And so you know you walk into getting and mir choose across or sane from the garden of eden. Some of the convicts who arrived here. We know because there's no mug shot. So you get the full description including any bodily markings tattoos had centurions at the foot of the cross. Mary magdalene yeah. I mean it's all and then some of them had actual texts like one guy. William shatner had the priest in the public. And it's a. It's a story about hypocrisy in the gospel of luke where it says god have mercy on me a sinner and i think that's a fascinating tap for a convict right except the irony is in the biblical text that's flipped against the self righteous as a critique of them so it's very subversive very clever and i think if you were his jailer. Or he's god you'd feel the sting of tattooed that on the surface looks like a confession but really isn't about enka twos is there anything biblical in that. They were very common. Anka's symbols often came with the initials of sale loved one. Who'd been left behind. And it's a safe airing symbol. But the bible picks up the culture of its time and like they were safe. Aaron communities lots of fishermen in the bible and becomes part of the language of the biblical text. And so you get passages that talk about hope as the anchor of the soul in the new testament and so when you see an ankle tattoo with the initials of someone that perhaps you hope to see again. You kind of have this echo. Both of the seafaring life baps of the voyage that you're anticipating to australia but also of this biblical idea of an anchor for the soul. I mean there were pubs in that era kids. Hope and anchor open anchor. I think there's still plenty of them. Actually straight out of the this straight out of the bible. The bible is is full of stories of exile and and suffering. And they're written about with gregg compassion. I suppose i imagine what convicts took solace from reading their stories meredith. Well i think we have to speculate about that. There's not always a clear. Commentary of what convicts made it on that personal or interior level. But there are stories of convicts on the scaffold facing their own executions sometimes denouncing an unjust system that in their account put them in that position. One of them even quotes. Jesus himself on the cross. Saying i forgive all my oppressors so on the one hand denouncing an unjust system but also claiming i guess a kind of victimhood that might they affirmed by god as it is in the biblical narrative. And i think the suffering christ is any means the ted massive potency artistically. Personally i think a lot of people drawn comfort from that. And i think the convicts at least in some cases would have been among them as more and more clergyman arrive in australia with the cargo of bibles because one of the first things they see aboriginal people who are living just in with amongst them more in the camps beyond the settlements but with the original people to them as cells that needed to be one with all enlightened by the word of god or something else. Well those clergyman and the english colonists generally arrive at the same time that british protestants launch a world shaping missionary movement like the nineteenth century is a century of technological advanced but also of massive massive missionary expansion. The basically makes the bible the global text that it's become and it's also the movement comes out of england trust to bring it into slavery in the world to short. It's socially engaged. It's personal but it's not private if that makes sense. This form of spirituality that really. It's one of the mine forms that we get here in colonial australia but when it comes to indigenous australians a lot of those clergy were their main job was actually directed at white colonists and the reform of convicts and in many cases extending the bible across cultural boundaries was a kind of afterthought australia wasn't the mind game. If you like for those missionary organizations they were much more interested in africa in india in other parts of the south pacific but that said they were a bunch of those kind of evangelistic christians who sought to share their own faith. There are inscriptions with people who belonged to the first nations of this place and that. That's a very complex and unresolved story. But i think what makes the story of the bible here in. Australia is still important because then as now. Indigenous australians have had a whole spectrum of responses but what's distinctive in australia. Is that the bible arrives. In the wake of massive dispossession other parts of the south pacific on of missionaries first and then colonists he'd get colonists and then missionaries in trying so indigenous people initially encounter the bible in the midst of the disruption of their languages and communities and cultures. And it in that rupture moment that they make this new text that comes as a book with the technology of writing alphabetic literacy that's really unfamiliar a vision of time is moving from creation to new creation. That's totally different to the kind of more cyclical and place oriented outlets reality. Yeah of indigenous communities and so. There's this huge cultural clash and yet at the same time indigenous. Australians at least some of them take massive interest and come to their own conclusions about what this text is and. How does it relate to these colonizing community that they're encountering some of the story of dickey battling. We all know the story of been along. Who can a part of the early cities and whose name is given to bennelong point with the opera houses to me about his son dickie bennelong. You've got historian you. You almost need to start with his mother burr on who was a biomedical woman from paramedics. The area of sydney shay was befriended by that first chaplain richard. Johnson lived in his heart for about eighteen months like bennelong did in his own way had a very close look at what society at its religion at scriptures as culture and then walked out rejected it and tried to rebuild whatever she could have heroin live in the midst of this disruption that i mentioned she becomes partners with bennelong after braggers death. They marry and they have this son dickie bennelong. He loses both his parents at around the age of twelve or thirteen and he's institutionalized through the early native institutions and is adopted. That's the language of the missionary his by the first missionary whose explicitly to indigenous australians. This missionary this young guy is about two years older than dicky takes on his paternalistic fathering kind of role. Which you know that that's the whole model. It's very paternalistic but recognizes that dicky's had some kind of conversion and we only have fragments of dickey's invoice through the letters of this missionary but from what we can tell. He converted to something like the methodism of the missionary mental that he had and began creating to he's on community that main in converting christianity does that mean he needs to renounce the all wise the spirituality the old beliefs. We don't know what dicky bennelong made of that question. The world that that he's parents had been boring so it's not like an apocalypse this happened of. There's been a major upgrading. There's been deaths the all the landed people have been working through is no longer available to them. And so i haven't thought of that in those terms about how people are getting this message at this time when this profound disruption and violence. That's going on. I don't want to undermine the continuity that that those communities did and still salvage to spot the incursion of colonists from the other side of the world like. I don't want to say that. He couldn't maintain he's indigenous in meaningful ways. Of course he did but the tragedy insomnia has so many tragedies here but one of the tragedies that after his baptism it's about five months later he catches some kind of illness and dies of it. He's he's the only in his early twenties and he's mourned by his missionary friend as this was going to be the evangelist to the other indigenous people who've sydney in what's going on with god's providence that this man has died what he's own community made of that we don't know but he is the first indigenous australian to be baptized but other people in key latkes mother encountered the bible and made their own conclusions. That didn't fit in the box. Of what a missionary said christianity was about. I think it's a very open question On air online. Abc listen at. This is conversations with richard fidler you can subscribe to the conversations. Podcast find out more just head to abc dot net dot eu slash conversations. We telling the story there before the son of bennelong barong dickey benton how he was the first aboriginal evangelist in australia. What does that mean in the idea. In the minds of the settlers thin many of this was given that accepted. The word of god did that make him a full equal in their minds. What what's your sense of that i know. I know it's hard to talk about this specifics. But does it take the average person concerned and make them a fully-fledged equal a brother and sister of of the columnists there are competing views among the colonists because the nature of humanity and the role of christian theology and defining that he's already massively contested at the time. That calling us. Bring the bible to australia. So some colonists. Indigenous strivings can't be and won't be equal and that's rather convenient that narrative for those colonists because it legitimates violence dispossession the disruption of the existing society that they replaced with their own and that narrative has a real potency in australia. Its critiqued from within what society by people who take much more directly that genesis narrative of god making all people of the same stock of the same family. A lot of those missionaries. Like the one. We've been discussing. Thomas walker took it as basic that all humans only which children of god or potentially children of god. And that's why you would share a christian message with dickie bennelong because he had exactly the same capacity to be saved as a white person. So when dickey's baptized the passage day choose to rate at the service comes from the book of acts which is a hot that tells the story where the christian community expands beyond the original jewish community to include people from great background and other backgrounds gentles. Originally it was supposed to be just a cult of jewish cult was jewish heresy and they claim that verse is relevant to the conversion of an indigenous australian. I mean it's still it can be very paternalistic colonial kind of mindset and yet there is this negative common humanity that somehow survives and becomes very radical. Especially once you get the rise of the scientific racism of the nineteenth century and kind of social darwinist ideas about a hierarchy rather than a common ancestry. The question of are humans the same or different. And he's their hierarchy becomes one of the major questions of the nineteenth century with the new science but also with the new theology. Was there a major effort to translate the bible given that there was such stress by protestants on the written word was if it to translate the bible into indigenous languages in earliest radio. We yes there was. I mean this is one again. When the major enterprises of british protestantism in the nineteenth century the world you get organizations like the british and foreign bible society which by the end of the nineteenth century. They dispatching bobble every five seconds to somewhere in the world is massive boom of bibles in all kinds of languages. How can you do it in indigenous language. Just like you'd be fine with the burning bush but what about a watered sepulcher or insurance on the earth. Do you translate things that are outside the realm of the experience of the people. You're trying to communicate. Wh how do you say. The lord is my shepherd. If you've never seen a sheep right around i made are perennial questions. Translators and missionary translate is in australia. Were acutely aware of these things i think. One of the most grouping stories for me involved. Lancelot thrill killed. He was a former circus actor. I mean missionaries on who. We think they might be spent some time in the south pacific where he did a lot of translation and then comes to sydney and starts mission in a wobble land newcastle in new south wales and sets about translating the bible. Well he starts by learning the language from an indigenous world scholar and philosopher called bureau ben or eaglehawk who teaches throughout the language and then collaborates with him in an exchange. I think of sacred knowledge. I'm thrilled learns about bureau bands view of the world and they together try to find words for things like prayer things like god the holy spirit. And there's a real tussle really about how to do this so i throw cow for example. Can't use the english word. God because all the awad know that word from the convicts who are using it as a profanity right. So that's off limits and sorry can't issues that would you're using the lord's name in vain and therefore that makes it not suitable yes. It is now indigenous equivalent of the english word do and so he ends up going back to hebrew. And you get your hova as word for god in awhile translations of the gospels but when it comes to something like holy spirit. It's remarkable this huge accommodation. He he goes for a word with bureau band. That draws on traditions of men's sacred knowledge when throw killed didn't see you know the spiritual world is men's domain necessarily but i guess is kind of rapproachment between the way hazel the world in the white bureau bank the world they come up with a term that straddles both. But what happens. Is that the colonists of that area increasingly encroach on a wobble. Land bureau bands. Earn people increasingly dispossessed. They are increasingly exposed to european diseases and there is the death right is huge thrill kale berries dozens and dozens of alaba victims of disease on the land of the mission. There aren't really converts. In the way that a missionary support might accept and by the time they finish translating a number of the gospels. there's very few speakers rate is of the language surviving in medieval europe. When there would be a great plague gone through the land like the death would with apply place and it would strike down the justin. The unjust lock strike down helpless infants as willows. Cruel people would strike down the rich and the poor luck and left a lot of believers. Thinking i lived in a morally disordered universe like there was no god. There was because this morally chaotic. I wonder if the those early evangelists despaired kind of feel that are just done this work and now everyone dying of smallpox. What is god's role in this is this. What does providence providence nine or is it malign i mean the nature of disruption and devastation in the walnut. I mean who's cracked that one right. But i mean bureau. Ben dies bereft of visa on children. Who predeceased him throw killed his life's work. Basically in his own lifetime seems more or less in vain and he gets out were continuing communities and custodians of that language who did survive and using the dictionaries and some of the bible and prayer translations that bureau. Ben made we've throw killed have become resources for the revival of that language. That's going on now so these biblical texts had alive. That was not what the original translator expected but yet is very important to the communities that those texts belong to in your book of aboriginal people who've been converted and become evangelical and they context the say. You need to give up the all wise and you take on this new way and this is important as wicked every time. I've met some people in any case who seemed to have not that much trouble. Actually in folding christian ideas christian theology within their existing cosmology their existing spirituality. It seems to not to trouble that too much. What's your understanding of that. I think that's right. And that every convert. I suppose has to negotiate that question of how does this gospel relate to my culture and what i already know. And that's a process of negotiation that pretty much every christian that i've ever met read about his that to go through. I was really struck by the story of father. Dave passi who is one of the plaintiffs in the mob attacked one of the last surviving plaintiff. Actually he comes from the torres strait obviously and was from the priestly line of his particular community and christianity is being very potent there. Since about the eighteen seventies they still celebrate the arrival of christianity and its missionaries in eighteen. Seventy one as the coming of the lot and he talked about how his own coach he's earned traditions. In his view pointed towards christ and so for him advocating for a kind of christian but indigenous torres strait identity and connection to land was quite straightforward in that sense when it came to arguing for land ownership in the marburg case. He could even quote from the book of proverbs. It says do not move and everlasting boundary stone. He was like the biblical narratives about land. What i know about land there. The sign the bible reinforces my connection to this place in my ownership of this land. God gave me the land and that was something that seems to me kind of bolstered his existing community and culture. And i think that it's not as banri as indigenous or christian. There are plenty of stories that rupture that kind of dynamic come. The mid nineteenth century started is really flourishing. It's getting rapidly quad replace and having the highest standard of living in the world and pretty an almost no time at all. It's quite an astonishing. Transformation all migrants coming to australia. Then there's the gold rush and there's a whole lot of wealth that comes out of a strider at that time you sit. This is a period. Equal is the great age of the bible in australia this time. How was that manifested firstly. There's a massive bible boom like. This is the age of the steam engine of the ballot box but also of the cheap bible. There's an industrialization of printing that means. The bible becomes a ubiquitous book. In the way that that we might imagine it to be people can get a copy for the first time easily in their own language. Ever since since. Jesus brought so you can bring the bubbles in but the people wanting to pick them up. Well i think people are socialized why that exposes them at least to the mind. Stories and ethics churches are by far the largest and most extensive network of community organizations even unions and other community groups are in dialogue with the bible around how they wanna do wage justice and perceive that you get in schools people are encountering whether or not they believed to be god's word and read it privately in their bedrooms every day even so you might come across it in the newspaper. It's kind of saturating in that nineteenth century period but again not because everybody a great on it. And that's why. I'm almost teasing by saying it's a it's a bible boom. It's also the period when debates about the bible. Its authority it's interpretation. I mean this is post don. Obviously the whole movement of high criticism. Who was jesus was really divine on. Those questions are becoming popular fair. The kind of thing he'd head down downing melvin to hear a debate about on a saturday night that is kind of all the rage at this time and so it's almost a public pastime to debate the bible and that partly why. It's so so much in the foreground of public awareness in this period of prosperity because the bible was named like the template for the good life. This is how you live the good life. The blueprint for the good life. I think it's not attempt. It's the dialogue partner as everybody aggies and debate those questions. Schorr and how do you crack a question like poverty for example. It's not like the bible presents one answer but some people read it and founded charities other people read it and founded insurance mitchell's ebay one another's burdens that says relations other people's like the unionist william guthrie spence founding secretary of the israelis workers union said. Well come on. Jesus made no mention of thrift. We need-we justice. Luke's gospel says a worker is worth is higher us properly and so you get do. We need a savings bank or a charity or do we need unions. These are always addressing poverty and all the institutions that we see grow up to address that question forged by people who have different interpretations of what the bible might mean for that question in their minds and we still live with all these institutions which all live through the banking role commission. Westpac is no longer a christian organization in the way it was when it was founded. It was shaw. The same people who founded the bible society founded westpac out to a social enterprise provide for the poor by giving them away to save. They should get married stopped drinking and put their money in the bank. This was the evangelical morality of early capitalism in australia. So this is a time also when it becomes a university frozen because it christie gendered because the bible is like the instrument of women no suddenly like the men by having an interesting wise in the goldfields very mild. The goldfields and women are sent out with the bible to try and civilized. Men just stopped and drinking so much misbehaving behaving going around killing each other. Thieving from one. Another it's seen as a- woman's role to bring the bible into these parts of the world and at the same time there's a backlash there's the anti walzer backlash that comforts driven by men writing for the bulletin and in sydney. The time that thanh sure. I mean this is one of the fascinating things. Right is the public bible is a man's book. Clergy are men politicians on the whole are men and yet who's in the pews who's rating the bible. Their children. it's a women's book on a diversion level. Women have been the custodian of the bible in the sunday school short. And i mean the whole temperance movement. That comes out of partly a sense of men's bad behavior ruins women's lives and we need to restrain. And so how do you restrain the liquor trade will you need the vote and so literally sunday school ladies who've taken on some kind of public voice or platform as church visitors to poor communities or sunday school teachers or temperance campaigners become involved through. Say the christian temperance unions the women's christian temperance union in the campaign for votes for women. And i mean. They're extraordinarily successful. The critical factor. I mean patricia. grimshaw melvin. Uni says this in her work on suffrage south australia godly colony achieves the vote for women much earlier than victoria which is relatively secular partly because the sunday school ladies were more central to the campaign in the summer school. Ladies that stopped the temperance movement and to make the temperature move at work. They need the vote and so from that. It's probably not as linear as that. But that's how that's how you get the bible. Being this big impetus for women's suffrage the suffrage movement will they. They had a vision of social reform. Not just as something that would make their own lives better but as something that would bring something like the new jerusalem that it would be a godly. Society like the rhetoric rayleigh source lock. The rhetoric of the bible does and they had the sense of being on god's mission and that was incredibly powerful for people who had to you know tough out this campaign year. After year i met a lot of opposition and then i think they're devotional. Sometimes engagement with the text was just the inner nourishment that i needed. I mean not. All the activists were were christians. Sunday school ladies. There were plenty of secular activists as well and i might different kinds of arguments. He can just as easily as louisa lawson. The feminist pointed out. Say well if you want to justify the oppression of women will the bible's you text. But she would also point as a secular person to a verse like glaciations in the new testament. That says there's no male or female slave offering where galateri ticks where all wanting cross. Jesus so even a secular activist could use the bible to make an argument for quality and that surprising use of the bible church. Not in the hands of the sunday school lady. But someone who is very different to that. That's what surprised me that that's every way emeritus. The political parties and discredit destroying the oldest live apart in the world founded begin initially in queensland in at the end of the nineteenth century. How important is the bible in the foundation of the life party. And its ideals. We're talking about a time when the bible was the common reference. Point for all kinds of people whether you are a believer on not we were talking about william guthrie spence before the the union organizer. Who was an early labor member and kind of rode the wave of labour's early electoral success right into the federal parliament. Someone like him described the new unionism so the kind of unionism post eighteen. Ninety strikes produced the parliamentary party as an effort to put into practice the teachings of the founder of christianity. He says that to a meeting of socialists. I mean there's a lot in the gospels that can stick it to the man and say actually. God is on the side of the underdog and that strain of interpretation for the unionists for the radicals like henry lawson again not necessarily christian but that idea of a god. He's on the side of the poor and oppressed and who will lift them up and vindicate there. 'cause that is a very powerful set of interpretations and has been chile's phrase about the light on the hill is that biblical engine. Yeah i mean they come from a culture where those kind of phrases are just everywhere in the air and again it elevates their political vision to something beyond self interest. It's one of the things that pushes the horizon further out. I think it's easy to think about someone he might be interested in. The bible is kind of narrow. That's a limiting thing. But i think for those early generations who found in those strange and we'd and sometimes very potent stories. It was something that enlarged the imagination. That cost political visions and social visions to new lengths about the liberal party. The liberal it. You know it's predecessor. Was not a destroyed your party and then robert menzies refounded it as the modern day liberal party which was supposed to combine the liberal and conservative streams of australian thought if there's a foundational moment of the liberal party it's robert menzies famous speech about the forgotten people. Do you hear the bible in that. As a principal founding principle of the liberal party as well there's a couple of things day in those speeches. He almost envisages the ideal family as a scottish library and his family gathered in their home around their fireplace reading burns or reading the bible to get it every not the carter and his home and that vision of what a worker with a stake in the country. Is i think a vision of citizenship. That was very potent for menzies and many who followed him. And what about the issue of conscience individual conscience evangelical is out of the labor party towards The liberal guys back to dakin for dakin who is often remembered as the founder of what became the liberal party. Hey often collaborated with labor on many pieces of legislation not laced water strata. But in the end didn't form an alliance we've lie over the issue of conscience can mccorkell dictate the vote of its parliamentary members when push came to shove protestants in the life of potty. Some of them anyway. Thought that that impinged on the right of conscience which is kind of a founding value for protestantism and so held back from that and formed a party where conscience and a man's conquer those kind of drenched in particular visions of an autonomous masculine. Kind of politician as well there was more scope for individual. Conscience is a bit of martin. Luther there isn't it's like here. I stand i can do no other holiday of surrendering your opinion to a caucus. Vote connecticut to them. Was it again. I mean what happens. Is that methodism. Which is so potent in the early labor movement is a clips by a catholic tradition of social justice and social teaching. That does not find a home in the labor party. And i think the the rift in the labor party in the nineteen fifties and onwards reflects how important that the jostling of the catholic and the secular elements of the party of bain to shaping its parliamentary fortunes. Read the story of gough whitlam when he became deputy leader of the labour party to arthur. Call will the view of the potty breaks is the time was that we needed a non-roman episode and as deputy later aside. The party wouldn't be seen as to catholic because because wickham was not a catholic. He was brought up a protestant tradition. So yeah this was really very very potent even in those days. Straddling political discourse. I think is a bit more from the british kind of. It's a bit more taciturn. Always very explicit about the religious or even the intellectual aspects of of our political ideas and ideologies shy of than americans in other words shaw. And they're very effusive. But that doesn't mean that it's not real or that. It's not important and i think it's a bit subterranean that just kind of doing a hand side search for bible quotes won't get there but once you dive into the intellectual formation of many of our politicians into those kind of the theological echoes of those debates over conscience over how you structure a party. You can see the long tail of european arguments about the bible going back centuries so it's not as simple as well. The bible produces excellent wild because of the bible. This is what happened. But we live in the slipstream. If you lack of a long cultural history of the bible. That is bain. Red as the word of god as the thing you calibrate all your other understandings to and that ought not be mainstream anymore. But it's cultural and institutional legacies still linger and i guess one of the values of history as it can kind of tune us a little more to that. Not because it makes something normative in our own time. But i think by just being a bit more conscious of that back story we can be wiser in the way we face our own issues in our in questions society. What is the good life that we're joining a long conversation. There and we need to be wise as we reject and accept and reframe. Tom holland the british historian called dominion. Yes and in there. He's crisis the kind of the the radical ideas of christianity radical into the kindness. That's that's a that's a. That's he sees it as a kind of rupture i think. Something new something new under the sun with that in which is an explanation for its success Globally he says even in an age. Now where the world is becoming the western world his country and astrid era becoming more secure more secular all the time he says the christian biblical origins of our moral ford and moral language is still very present but it's people are increasingly unaware of it like he sees tons and tons of christianity in the woke left right now i mean why isn't might right like why do we care that the underdog gets a fago and why is that. Why do we pin our national narrative on a military defeat. And say actually. It's a moment of glory. I think these are stunning. Reversals and i think a large part of the explanation is that not not for all time and maybe not in the future but for a certain window of national formation here in australia. The story of a nazarene carpenter who was crucified by an imperial power and yet vindicated as somehow in tune with the author of the universe that kind of reversal that it's actually in humility in generosity in greis in love that that is the thing that can animate not just good personal life but a flourishing community. That's incredibly powerful. And for anybody. Who's been the victim of some kind of oppression. You only need to look to liberation movements to see how powerful that can be in south africa among black africans among people of color in the us here in australia. it's incredible liberating potential in rejection of it's more oppressive uses that we also see all around us and so the question of what kind of text is this. What are we going to make of it. Who's got the biblical literacy to even make those calls that i think is just as rain down. Like roddy grid. How lovely it is to speak with you. Thank you so much. My huge pleasure reached it. Thank you you've been listening to a podcast of conversations with richard fidler for more conversations interviews. Please go to the website. Ab say dot net dot edu slash conversations. Discover more great. Abc podcasts live radio and exclusives on abc listen app.

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Thursday 19 December

Monocle 24: The Briefing

58:53 min | 1 year ago

Thursday 19 December

"You're listening to the briefing first broadcast on the nineteenth of December two thousand nineteen on monocle. Twenty four the briefing is brought to you in partnership with Rolex Hello and welcome to the briefing coming to you. Live from studio one here at Midori. House in London Andrew Miller coming up anybody that becomes president. I mean they. They could have a phone call and they get impeached. Donald Trump effect nonchalance and door bewilderment at becoming the third. US President to be impeached reached by the House. But how do the rest of his party feel about it later. In the show Al News panel will consider the. UK's new political landscape and a possibly ably related theme discuss which fictional countries. They'd rather be living in. We'll find out why. One of Europe's Christmas markets is consistently voted. The world's finest. We might even figure out who the people who vote on these things and we will continue soliciting the festive anthem recommendations of monocle. Twenty four staff all that coming coming up right here on the briefing on monocle. Twenty four and welcome to today's edition of the briefing with me Andrew. Camila Donald Trump yesterday joined Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton on the shortlist of US presidents impeached by the House of Representatives. And a shoutout. At this point you too Richard Nixon who avoided at least this indignity by resigning before the decision was made for him. The House passed articles of impeachment by two hundred and thirty votes to one hundred ninety. Seven Evan almost entirely along party lines the next step theoretically trial conducted by the Senate where trump's Republican party holds a majority and seems own present foam unlikely to convict and therefore remove him. Here is president trump reacting to his impeachment with his characteristic sense of proportion and willingness to accept responsibility for his decisions. I'm not worried I'm not word because it's always good when you don't do anything wrong. You get a page. That may be a record record. That will last forever but you know what they have done. They've cheapened the impeachment process. Now now anybody that become come you know. This is a sacred position. Anybody that becomes president. I mean they could have a phone call and they get impeached. So if the Republicans if you had a Democrat president we have a Republican House. They don't like the guy for whatever reason or the woman they impeach the person it's cheapened it. It's exactly what our founding fathers didn't want and they said it could happen and it's at well. I'm joined with more on this by Ryan Williams Executive Vice President of targeted victory and former presidential campaign spokesman for Mitt Romney Ryan as we've bean saying there it's it's a rare occurrence in US history. This is just the third time it has happened. How big a deal is this Peterson is a big deal. Will it's something that's only been reserved for as you pointed out to other previous occasions Impeaching the president is a grave decision. It's a it's a it should be a very solid process. That has not been the case. This time this has been really political theater on both sides. there really hasn't been a sense that this impeachment features gonNA lead anywhere. Obviously with the case of Richard Nixon in the nineteen seventies. People realized that he would be impeached and likely removed from office given what had happened. But this point right now it's it's pretty much We know what's going to happen He's not going to be removed from office. And there's really nothing that can be done over this process to change the opinions of of the members of the Senate who will serve as the jury in a in a trial. We saw some stirring. Let's call stirring defenses off. President trump from house House Republicans yesterday possibly most noteworthy from Barry Louder. Milk of Georgia's Eleventh District who compared this To Jesus Christ's trial before Pontius this pilot Do you at least get the sense that House Republicans are getting kind of embarrassed by it. Will this in private. At least no. I don't think so. I actually think the that the longer this process has gone on the board that the members of the Republican Party in the house have rallied to the presence. 'cause it almost becomes like a competitive additive sport You're on your team. You want your team to win. You're you're willing to do whatever you need to do to win. I from what I've seen it you've seen. Even some very very moderate members like Elise Stefanik of New York who had run is kind of a new Republican really launch vigorous and spirited defence of the present. So I think it's time has gone on. Members of the party really rallied around the president and have dug in their heels. More and You know there. There's really been less of a sense of kind out of being sheepish. A in terms of defending. It's really been you know. Let's turn the volume up to ten As the process has gone on for most members is there a I guess a strategic strategic logic under that Tribal Loyalty Vo are they perceiving that if this goes to the Senate and if as seems far more than likely the senate does does not vote to convict him that trump will therefore be able to go back to the electorate and say look you know. I'm I'm innocent. I've been declared innocent by the. US Senate no list. The whole thing was a beat up. It might actually cleaned of work for him on election. Day could and the process that the strategy during this process this has been to attack the process to say this is all a sham to say that the Democrats are political and this is a big giant waste of time. And if you look at public polling on where the public falls on whether to remove the president or not there is some There are some indications that that that it's worked Support for removing moving the president and and Keeping him has really hovered in the mid to high forties. Right now if you look at the average of all polls Removal is about. I believe it's about one point behind Not Removing so. That's changed a bit what we've seen mostly that the public hasn't moved. Despite the fact that the Democrats we've had weeks of of hearings with public witnesses. I think the Republicans have been able to pick up enough noise that it's basically neutralized it and The public is kind of tuning it all out. has this been politically. Perhaps less than clever by the Democrats by which I guess. I'm asking if you were advising them would. Would you advise them to proceed with impeachment. Despite you know especially given the evidence that has accrued of trump's behavior toward Ukraine or would you have advised them to wait for for the electric to make a decision. I think it's a risk doing impeachment Especially this close to an election. We saw this with Bill Clinton in nineteen ninety three. The Republican Party pushed for impeachment. Got It and then they got beat. The ballot box in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight backfired on them. I think there is some. There are some nerves that are beginning to Kinda pop up in the Democratic Party. Even after this impeachment vote you saw last night Nancy Pelosi would not commit to even bring the articles of impeachment and forward to the Senate in a timely manner. There's a a movement now among some of the Democratic Academics to say we should just take this impeachment and hold it because there's not going to be fair trial in the Senate. That's I think a crazy easy idea if you don't move forward with the impeachment I think it really gives it gives a lot of Steamed the Republican argument that this is just a political the theater and not something to be taken seriously just finally own that thought because that story is being reported that the Democrats in order to avoid our guest what would be the embarrassment of losing this argument in the Senate might just not send the articles Across the capital. Can they actually do that. What what does that actually mean if they decide to sit on note Well they have to the next step is they have to have a resolution naming members of the house from the Democratic leadership to be impeachment managers and they physically have to send handed over to the Senate and they could Pelosi as speaker could not sign the paperwork and kind of hold it up. I don't think that's a good idea. I think that would really make them look political Michael Send it over to the Senate. Now have the trial. If you want to attack the the leadership Mitch McConnell on the Senate for not holding a fair trial so be it holding. It is just took it by half and I think that really backfire on the Democrats Ron Williams. Thanks as always now with a look at the day's headlines here is molecules yelling Goffin. Thanks Andrew You. Police in India have detained hundreds of people who have defied a ban on protesting against a controversial new citizenship law. The legislation offer citizenship to non Muslim illegal immigrants from Pakistan Bangladesh and Afghanistan and has provoked widespread demonstrations new south. Wales has declared a state of emergency urgency as Australia grapples with record-breaking temperatures the nation endured. It's Holtus every day on Tuesday but that record was beaten again yesterday. As thermometers saw so on average maximum of almost forty two Celsius and the footballer. Miss it is Il has been removed from China's version of a video game following his criticism of China's mistreatment of weaker Muslims who is a Muslim has called leakers warriors who resist persecution. He has now been taken off pro evolution soccer in the country. Does that today's headlines back to you Andrew. Thank you your lane president. Donald Trump's of pity in response to his impeachment has indeed been of a sensational channel vintage. He is clearly not the kind of man given to contemplating that there's always someone worse off but there actually is earlier this week. One of Pakistan's former the president's was not only convicted of high treason but sentenced to death. Here's a look at why Pakistan was founded in one thousand nine hundred forty seven it has not proved an easy country to lead indeed. It's something of a wonder anyone tries in those seven. Short decades of its existence Pakistan has seen two presidents or the equivalent overthrown in coups to forced into resignation to quitting to avoid impeachment. One hanged one killed in arguably suspicious plane crash. One chased into exile one dying from illness. In Office of Pakistan's prime ministers four have been sacked three unloaded by their own parties one chased into exile one assassinated one chased into exile and then assassinated upon on their return and these are an incomplete assessment of the hazards attendant upon high office in Pakistan. We've only got about five minutes and at any rate to you. Say nothing of uncountable. Attempted assassinations failed. Coups d'etat and Sandra abortive plot any occupant of Pakistan's Presidential Palos or prime ministerial residence nose to sleep with one eye open and a pistol beneath a pillow. So it is possible that Pervez Musharraf who was president of Pakistan between two thousand and one and two thousand eight has responded philosophically to the death. Sentence passed upon him this week by a court in Islamabad which convicted convicted him of high treason. Musharraf cannot claim that he didn't know what he was getting himself into inaction at this moment is suicide for Pakistan and I cannot allow this country to commit suicide. I had to take this action in order to preserve the democratic transition week I initiate Massara also enjoys the Constellation. The sentence is unlikely ever to be enacted. He received news of the verdict in Dubai where he has lived since two thousand and sixteen having prudently contracted contracted around then a mysterious ailment. That could not possibly have been treated. In any of Pakistan's many perfectly serviceable hospitals certain reprehensible cynics have further suggested that the United Arab Emirates lack of an extradition treaty with Pakistan may have been as much a factor in sheriff's choice of destination the nation as the healthcare in assessing the reasons for what has befallen Musharraf. It is worth recapping how he gained power in Pakistan Stan and how he lost it. Musharraf was a career army officer and by Nineteen Ninety nine held the rank of general and the title of Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Pakistan's seniormost military role that year tensions between Musharraf and then Prime Minister Nawa Sharif climaxed in a coup d'etat in which Musharraf seized power. I would like to please do not expect your level of democracy which you learned over over a number of centuries onto trying to learn and we are doing well please give time. Musharraf held office surviving surviving at least two assassination attempts until two thousand eight when he resigned amid chaos and turbulence encroaching from a number of fronts. He left for London London and returned to Pakistan in two thousand and thirteen hoping to campaign for office again but found himself under house arrest. Prominent among a lengthy list of accusations against him was involvement in the assassination of former prime minister and former fellow exile Benazir Bhutto who was murdered shortly after her return into Pakistan in two thousand and seven tourist allies and we are prepared to risk our liberty but we are not prepared to surrender our a great nation to the militants. This is not what Musharraf has been convicted of however the high treason charge relates to his unsuccessful last-ditch ditch attempt to prolong his presidency in two thousand and seven. He declared a state of emergency and suspended. The constitution pulled the plugs on TV channels sacked. The chief justice of the Supreme Court and had several opposition figures placed under house arrest including current Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan Musharraf. Sharrif may be reflecting that some of his former foes have long memories but so do some of his former comrades Pakistan's military has always always taken a flexible view of the convention of submission to Civilian Command and one of the more eyebrow arching responses to the death sentence against Musharraf has come from the Pakistani military's media department which said that the sentence had been received with a lot of pain and anguish by the rank and file of Pakistan's armed forces it also suggested in an unmistakable tone of airy menace that June legal process seems to have been ignored and that an officer of the sheriff's statue could surely never be a traitor. Nice little independent judiciary. You have here. Wouldn't want anything to happen to. If one sets aside any squeamishness about capital punishment the conviction of Musharraf is arguably a step forward for Pakistan's John's always fraught and fragile constitutional democracy a robust assertion of the rule of law against a rogue officer who took power by force US and tried to keep it by the same means however nobody in Pakistan needs reminding of the tendency of Pakistan's military to assert itself. Right white back. You're never shut down in China Vicky. Ip We go to aunt the sheriff's legal team claimed their client intends to challenge the guilty verdict and the death sentence in Pakistan's Supreme Court. It would be better for his country and himself if he did so from a distance monocle and rolex. Bring you the pioneers. The pioneers is a brand new series. That tells tells the stories of people improving the planet. A heroic supports these innovators with whom they share a passion to safeguard and the F- future generations gain insight into into the fresh thinking that his disrupting received wisdom for the better and learn how Phyllis action continues to be the crucial driver of change. The Pioneers in partnership with Rolex own. You are listening to the briefing with me. Andrew mullet time. I'm now to take a longer look at the day's big stories with our news panel which today is Daniele Pellet managing editor of the Institute of war and Peace Reporting Murray Lecomte political journalist and author currently of. Haven't you heard which is excellent and you should read it. We will start he in the UK currently a week into what may be a long process of trying to assimilate the fact fact that Boris Johnson is somehow prime minister. The Queen will open parliament today. Indeed is doing so as we go to air and outlined. The new government's plans advanced advanced publicity. Speaks of extra. HFS funding and extra helpings of Porridge for violent criminals on the other side of the aisle. The field seeking the leadership of the Labour Party. Not As saddling up following last stays martyrdom of Saint Jeremy Daniele first of all. Let's start with the government. Do we yet have the least inkling of what kind of prime minister. Boris Johnson is actually happening is Boris. Johnson is going to be the same kind of prime minister as he was and same kind of mayor as he was and same kind of. Boris Johnson is for students. who were always was I think it's Reaching little bit much to imagine when we suddenly see this blossoming of political maturity When he's going to be the prime minister looks like the next five years? Maybe even the next ten years writing a lot of built bridges both actual metaphorical I. Yeah I think there's going to be quite low of huffing and puffing and lots of gaffes some more serious than than the other I mean what we're all you know in the way that people do try to make themselves feel better after political crisis Will saying are actually. He's got tremendous day and he's going to not be in enthralled to the right wing of his party and actually he can do loads of stuff for the NHS. But I think a little just trying to make ourselves feel a bit better but I do think that in terms of finding out what sorts of prime minister. He's going to be the next five years. We kind of have to wait for early. Febreeze the next proper reshuffle is meant to be thence hence the idea is we have to get out of the way first and then we'll have a full-scale reshuffle on anything. They'll be the really interesting thing because actually over the summer we had no idea what sorts of PM. Boris is going mm to be until he appointed you know Dominic Robb and Preach Patel and then several fell. Okay now this is not going to be one nation or is this actually Morris. Who's quite right wing? So I do think that yes seeing who he wants to surround himself with for the long run we'll all related subject. Marie it is always one of the joys of a government being elected with an unexpectedly large majority they will be a number of new Tory. MP's nobody really thought was going to get elected and we're just kind of put up his place holders in their seats. How long do you give it before we start learning some incredibly entertaining things about them? Say actually that. That's very much being the chatter in Western civilization lots of conversations along those lines and especially from like Tori friends who Very anxious about it and you know independent. I've had a one story. One person who had basically been blacklisted. In all but name of incomplete now. hoops he'd because they can just get rid of him over there and he won he's an MP now see everyone's surprise today they will definitely be quite a lot of anxiously waiting from C. C. H.. Ski See who ends up saying what the next few months. That's something we have to look forward to Daniele the other thing. We have to look forward to is of course the Labour leadership contest. So so far. Is it possible to tell. What do you sense that Labor has actually learned from last week's experience? I cannot answer very briefly and say nothing. uh-huh really nothing I think again we're in. We're going through the seven. Stages of Grief Heifer the Labor Party in A. I can't remember which we are. I think we're still anger. Maybe there's a few more stages to to go but It's quite edifying. See all the senior figures. Sort of scurrying around saying it wasn't me actually. I never thought this was a good idea. I told Jeremy I did I told him Et Cetera et Cetera et CETERA. But the fact is is that the corporate fraction still has charge of the party. I mean they can still that still basically in charge of the of the apparatus and now that's Mr Cogan is taking his sweet time in at transition period. Must what what are you from is not as I think it's It it's really impossible to tell you. There are plenty of very capable. People still in leadership roles in the Labor Party. Would you really want to be the Labour leader right now when the TRAUMAS is still unfolding. And there's another I think they might have to add some stages of grief onto the usual seven at Detroit process what's happened Murray. The has as Daniele rightly points out being a lot of chatter from Corbin enthusiasts about how how dreadful is the the voters have lost touch with the labor part. Aw but do you sense that. This is a good time for anybody who seriously fancies themselves as a serious Labor prime minister to actually get the job because realistically it might not be a five year proposition. This might be a decade. Well I think that currently fighting being to basically be the Neil Kinnock bullshit is what I found really interesting. Actually the pulse week has been Say Pre Corbin people saying well. Jimmy needs to stay on longer in until the things calmed down and then anti-cuban people saying he needs to go now when actually that should have been the other way round because surely more time gives factions more time to actually organize themselves. Find the better leader find the better policies etc and then let's say there's a leadership contest until like six to nine months Aka. This is what we have as opposed to anything. The closer to the election action leadership contest is the more likely it is that the Kuban faction will just be able to say there you go you know whistle and control of the machine. This we want this is going to get its actress so I'm not I'm natural what's going to happen. I think having leisure contest early on was the best day and as a result I I I do not think that whoever wins now will be the next. PM I've eaten. Imagine GRANDPA's become so embarrassing that they want to heed anybody sends him go now and it doesn't really matter Ah Timing and about how Padua final quick thought on British politics which are put to you? Murray one of the actual big things that Boris Johnson is going to have have to confront sooner rather than later. Is Scotland Nicholas Sturgeon saying again. Today that she's really not kidding she wants another referendum on independence. Do you get the sense. That Boris Johnson. who did make a big noise of appointing himself? You know the not just the prime minister the Minister for you know the Union and does lead. What is still technically known as the conservative and Unionist Party? Do you think he's actually that bothered about with Scotland remains in the UK or not. I actually thinks he says I was talking to one of those who lost their seats yesterday. and I think they will definitely be. NFL on both sides of the border Gee Creek sitting. They're trying to create a Department for the Union and actually get proper at presents up in. Scotland is all kind of making the argument. Because that's not something the Westminster governments have always. He's been very good at making the argument physically in Scotland as well. On top of ages from Western says idea actually think he cares but loosely because You know because Boris. This is someone who's obsessed with his legacy. I think already even more so than other. Prime ministers say he cannot be seen. I think purely on an ego basis as as the PM Scotland Okay. Well let's move seamlessly along because wrongly could usefully have learned. Is the one about allowing leaders to stay in office too long. In the case of Jeremy Copen about four years too long. The question is raised by the looming twentieth anniversary in charge of Russia of President Vladimir Putin he became acting president on new New Year's Eve nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine following the resignation of Boris Yeltsin to spend more time with his vodka and has remained firmly. ensconced in the Kremlin ever since notwithstanding the four. So you see ladies mini-me Dmitry Medvedev have ago behind the big desk so Putin could skirt term limits on that subject first of all. Daniela term limits. Are they are they a good the idea. And they make sense really as part of a democratic Institution I mean. In general I would say democracy kind of takes Ah of of overstayers Especially pouty systems If you look at international politics Anything over about a decade and we start to get into dodgy territory and their vanishing if you examples of proper functioning democracies where people have stayed on much much longer counterbalanced to that argument. Mary's of course it is. The the electorate is the term limit that it should be up to the people to decide that if they want a given potentate to crack on decades than that option should be available to them as it is for example under the United Kingdom system. Boris Johnson could be prime minister for the next fifty. Jus I completely agree but I do think it's about the length of the terms as well because we had that problem in fronts until relatively the recent the grand scheme of things of dissolved presidential terms with seven years so also technically only elected twice. That's fourteen years which is an incredibly a massive amounts of time. Say I didn't really know. I suppose I suppose most of the time you probably do need term limits but only in the case that the actual terms all all can reasonably short. If that makes sense Australia where I am from inherited the Westminster System which means that theoretically there's no limit to how long in Australian prime minister can go on for the record I think stands. I think it's eighteen years something like that. It's I'm reliably informed by my parents. Lived through the the reign of Sir Robert Menzies. He's that it seemed even longer donny. How long is too long? Because the thing is all jokes aside head of government running a country. It's it's it's a high pressure job it does genuinely take an actual toll on people if you compare and contrast photos of people once. They took office in once they leave it. It's not just just the fact that they might be five or six years old is point at which people basically for their own good and therefore that of the country should just be told. Yep thanks for your service. But you're done I don't I think it's a physical thing but I think people do inevitably start to go a bit bonkers with power on. That's the that's the example. We can even with a democratic system and then the usually actually physically defenestrate so to speak as what happened with with Margaret Thatcher so it the term limits tend to take care of themselves themselves if you have a party willing to and willing and able to stab you in the back which is also a sign of democracy. Do you have a particular favorite overstaying saying leader. I I have advanced strategies contribution to the Genre Sir Robert Menzies. Who's actually and he's eighteen years stretch? I think it was eighteen years something like that was actually his second crack accuse briefly very briefly prime minister thirty nine to forty one and then came back and had another go after the war. I was actually looking at this On the way hair and Nazerbayev in Kazakhstan was quite interesting because he was there for twenty nine years left this twenty nine inches long and included in two thousand and seven guessing amendments installment which I've seen of a very apartment that's very independent as you can imagine that allowed him. I need to have more terms not future Kazakhstan presidents. They was solutia motion to say the incumbent. COUN- remain president if he say wishes but but other ones after that and the best thing as well is that not only is still leader of the of the country officially but they named the capital after him. No Soul Tom In honour which is a pretty great legacy it really is just to go back to. What Danica Lewis say Murray you said is there are other examples of actually governments improving as or at least as as premierships or presidencies improving? The longer they get. Is it the thing with politics. What's that you get a kind of burst of energy when you take the job and you have that initial surge of goodwill presumably from the people who elected you? It's it's generally all kind. It Down Hill from there isn't it kind of is actually struggling to to think of examples that would support the theory that in a very long governments. A better idea thing and again. I think it's kind of coming back to the tem times as well because I think that if governments Dane have the fire in them you know we may be about to get kicked out and you have to give something to the voters then. He gives them faulty much time and space too busy do what they want instead which is not always the best thing I should mention With reference Prince to Sarah but Menzies Australia's longest-serving prime minister. This this is just me crowbar. One of my favorites. In fact into the discourse is that he was succeeded by one of the study shorter serving serving prime ministers. Harold Holt who went missing at sea Not long into the job. In fact it was the anniversary of two days ago. Nine hundred sixty nine. It would have Britain no sixty seven wrong anyway. Went missing at sea. His body was never found Not long afterwards. I'm not making this up in Melbourne. A swimming pool was named after Australia. I don't even think they thought they were trying to be funny but anyway finally on Today's Today's news panel we should go to the United States. And a cautionary tale of the perils of attempting to be amusing with placeholder copy We have all done this. I hope and and I would like it. This time to apologize to the Indie rock group whose picture appeared in Melody Maker's Reading Festival coverage of nine thousand nine hundred four above the caption. Who the fuck is this anyway? Anyway until someone spotted at yesterday the website of the US Agriculture Department listed on its website tariff tracker the nation of what can the which exists only in Marvel Comex as the homeland of Black Panther. Although for the right price donald trump could probably be persuaded to appoint you ambassador. It was says the department part of a systems test Does does anybody before we actually get into the thing we're going to discuss. have anything they want to confess about. placeholder copy anybody and identing ever ever had anything exactly like this however. A piece was published in the Telegraph about the UN with a massive picture of Owen Wilson. Ah I went for lunch after just after doing that as well without my phone. So that was state on the website for an hour. So that's my confession seriously. Have you enjoyed a career in journalism. originalism unblemished by any such transgression. Unfortunately the Internet will prove otherwise. But yeah it's all I mean it's it's classic journey fun isn't it really really he is I I did. I was once saved by editor. Who wrote back about a record review? I'd filed intended to look the night of a senior later Asking if the singer's his name was really building I'm very very glad she caught that one that that wasn't his his real name I hasten to stress. We didn't want to talk about fictional countries entries and ideally which one would most move to if you could If the option came up where would you rather be. Maybe I'm showing my age but I would have to the cheese. Melania however noneya without misogyny and the massive racism if that's okay if that could be arranged that would be perfect. I don't think I ever go all the way through the book. I would offer them any of them. which which chapters to the the racism and misogyny appear in every page actually talking animals Charles and and all kinds of magic and funds tha- but get rid of the Patriarchy so your dream destination is he woke? Mommy Tom you okay. SCANDANAVIA scattered Scandinavia. If you will murray where where would you rather be right now. And I actually on that exact note. I'm going to say I'M GONNA I'm GonNa stay with a comics team and go-to tennis Cara. The island from wonder woman as the island that is magical kingdom which will only remain magical as long as never steps foot on the island. And I think you've just described the need to move to women learning to vehicle cool things like fighting and horseback riding in of shooting arrows and stuff in this lovely can of Mediterranean whether Ireland. It sounds really fun so the reason I I liked this story very much was it is so much of the trump years actually almost identical to and onion story from about twenty years ago the headline of which if I remember member Rodney was something on the lines of ambassador. US Ambassador to belong suspected of having made country up on the idea was that this guy had pitched this to bill. Bill Clinton who arranged him to become the United States misery. I was also going to suggest was at Sylvania and Bordier the Fictional Balkan Balkan republics that underpin several into narratives without the racism again. So basically where we're looking to move to is basically weekly somewhere without the racism misogyny making Nice chain indeed it was nice weather and Eastern Europe. Yeah you're not going to great. I'm going to Australia next week. And I invite everybody to fill it in the punch lines. Brian Murray McConnell Daniel. Thank you both very much for joining us. You're listening to debriefing. You're listening to the briefing time. Now have a look at the latest business business news with UN pots from Bloomberg. You and I believe we are seeing the end of negative interest rates in Sweden not an economic concept. I can pretend ever the to have understood what are the implications of this rick's Bank one of five central banks around the world which have been embarking on an unprecedented program. of negative interest rates sub zero interest rates and today. They ended that they've gone against the flow in a lot of countries but they've raised interest rates by a a quarter of a point two zero percent so ending the negative rate experiments. Something that I hope will bring a relief to its finance industry. Negative rights pretty bad news news for banks. It's really squeezing the margin between their lending and borrowing. It's a pretty tough for financial services but the Rix Bank hoping hoping that despite the slowing Swedish economy the economy Sweden will be robust enough to deal with the rising interest rates back to zero percents but plenty of other central bank news today Japan and the Bank of England and Norway Central Bank all making decisions and they will chosen to leave rates on on hold. But it's interesting stuff out of Sweden today among people watching the Queen's speech that has been occurring here in the United Kingdom as Elizabeth second and outlines the plans over new government will be those Who set and watch the markets? Do we have any sense yet of how they're responding to what awaits sus near. He's being just ten weeks since the last Queen's speech pretty unusual for them to happen quite quickly as that of course the last parliament last. Parliamentary session was cut cots shorts so we we know roughly what was going to be coming today. The Queen's Set out a number of bills which the government plans to deliver not least getting Brexit Donald released getting withdrawal agreement dumb. We expect the U K now to leave on the thirty first of January. Whilst markets have welcomed the certainty from conservative you have to majority and the fact that the first part of Brexit is going to be over and done with relatively soon there was so much uncertainty over that in recent years the still not much carpeting. What's is GonNa Happen at the end of twenty twenty and that's really worrying markets? We saw a big rally in Newcastle to the as the election results came in last Friday. Morning big jumps in in shares and in the pound but the pound's has really drifted down since then on worries that we could be facing another brexit cliff h at the end of twenty twenty as to the legislative tip agenda while the government is promising lots of money for the health service as they promised during the election and action on tackling crime. But of course the centerpiece of the gender end is moving. Brexit Ford slowly slowly urine at Bloomberg. Thank you very much joining us. You're listening to the briefing Yeah you are listening to the briefing with me. Andrew Time now to take a look at the morning newspapers and here here to help me do exactly that is Monaco. Toronto Bureau Chief Thomas Lewis. He is not in Toronto by some sorcery. He is right here in the studio in London by sorcery. I mean ED trouble. It's a Christmas miracle it's not just got on the plane and flew. I did. Yeah just behind. The curtain will work Which newspapers are we looking looking out there so I thought we'd have a look around? All of the United States needs payments today seemed appropriate to what the front take a pill. Exactly trump impeached seem to be the two words on the top of most of the newspapers today the La Times obviously runs leads with it. The New York Times has basis entire front page aged photos. That always interests me at a moment like this when everybody knows what the headlines going to be. The photo is way you can actually have some well. I Dunno not necessarily early have some fun with it but make a statement with it while lots of them have gone for this image. Off Trump. Leaving the White House in a big black oversized overcoats when he was heading heading to the evocatively named Battle Creek in Michigan to hold a big rally while the vote just happening the the rally. I should alert listeners. Who Haven't seen or heard any of it? He's the highlights a worth seeing even by his standards. It was remarkable. There is a lengthy disquisition on the lack of water. Pressure in modern dishwashers and important moment historic day. You know it is. It is proper I tied and onions built as was the style at the time staff. I I do recommend it it. That is it's a IT'S A. It's an interesting choice of the Houston. Chronicle is what awesome people going with so the time has gone with the moment just after Nancy Z.. Pelosi had struck the gavel in the House of Representatives after the first article of impeachment was approved by members there and then they have another photo of trump the full flow absolutely and he's looking pretty animated again. See this happened in the railing against it. I think I don't know if you saw the moment into Andrew you're after Nancy Pelosi struck the gavel after the first article of the vote on that and a couple of Democratic lawmakers started applauding and she shot them. This look look waved her little card that she's reading the results of the being like shush angry parents at a birthday party. When you're not meant disturbed something and I think the politics of that was very interesting? She had apparently sent a not around to Democrats in the House beforehand describing this as a sad day a solemn on and that she did not want the optics of this to be that it was the democrats cheering and celebrating and just scoring another political point which I think is crucial because I feel as though if you look across the papers the Houston Chronicle the Chicago Tribune the La Times all describing the electorates in their corners of the country. Whatever side of the political fence there on as being being pretty browbeaten by this whole process? Even if you look at someone like California which I think is interesting which is obviously being the most restive parts off the US against trump rock-solid northern trump state absolutely and even there they went around on the day these votes are happening and interviewed voters saying. Then how do you feel and everyone just seems pretty tired that they spoke to at least of this whole process despite being one of the corners of the country that has protested against trump most iced during his presidency. So far it's an interesting point that one about the optics and Nancy Pelosi and political optics is something which by now. Nancy Pelosi has a fairly firm grasp of because our first guest on today show Ryan Williams. A former Republican strategist was talking about how the Democrats don't want to make this look like it is just just a political stunt while the Republicans very much do onto make it. Look like it's a political stunt and so you're Nancy Pelosi trying to reinforce the idea that this is actually quite a bad day for America or but nothing to applaud. It's it's quite a sensible move on her part. I think it is and I think it'll be quite difficult. Although no doubt they'll try but the more sort of aggressively opposed Republicans to Nancy Pelosi. Who have tried to demonize her characterize her and certain way for years by this stage to varying degrees of success success? I think failed kind of you know. Find it hard to continue this characterization of her as you know bogeyman out to get trump kind of whatever it takes you know it'll be hard for them to sort of the arguments stand because she is. Obviously you know she's doing this. Oh trying to give the impression at least that doing this on the half of the country not on behalf off of the Democratic Party. I think is interesting when you look at how the American press is covered this impeachment so far when you look at sort of obviously references backed impeachment of bill. Clinton the impeachment of Richard Nixon and how those moments real sort of watersheds in sort of the telling of the American story over the past couple of decades. I wanted to kind of how this impeachment whether that will be told the same way because it has become so partisan and it has become Tom this question of your political allegiances when you look at how the the members of the House of Congress yesterday voted I mean. They fell on party lines to Democrats. I think who the voted against impeaching but not a single Republican did so. I just wonder whether this will be seen as a moment for the nation of the moment for either party Harty in the in the minds of voters in the years to come. I think that question of weariness Is Key and you mentioned there that some of the coverage talks voters who just save. Save the tired a detect any of that kind of tone in the actual newspapers coverage of this because in normal circumstances whether it was Clinton's the somewhat ridiculous impeachment and Nixon's near impeachment. And I guess probably Andrew Johnson's impeachment in eighteen sixty eight for newspapers. These are huge huge moments. This is this his proper stuff you dream of doing as a journalist as you come up. This is proper stopped the presses stuff d get. Do you get any sense of that tone from the coverage from these newspapers apples or is it now. Just a case of it's Wednesday the president's being impeached tomorrow. It'll be some of them mad knowlton's this badly against that for sure. And I think that's that's why I wanted to see the Houston Chronicle example which I looks like we'll have a very interesting election-year given for example is better raw in the midterms. This sort of pulling appealing if you like. Various sort of Republicans strongholds traditionally in Texas. I think it's kind of interesting that the you know that sort of scratching their aheads as much as anyone else. I get the sense not just the Houston Chronicle. Just exactly you know in the days of say you know the process against Richard Nixon for example when the press press was really the anchor for people. Got This news. How they felt about how the impact it would have on their sense of what you know? The presidency was or what they're uh even being an American was what the values worthy you would stand up for given the information associative diffuse now and you can sort of just pick and choose who you listen to. And it's almost certainly going to be an opinion. Ravn reporting facts I think the press the coverage in the press in the US largely. I think has been pretty good in terms of trying is just sort of stick to the facts and trying to impart the importance from a constitutional point of view. Not just from a partisan one whether that really sorta chimes however at a time when people just listen to what they want to hear remains to be seen Thomas Louis. Thank you very much for joining us. You're listening to the briefing Monaco Rolex. Bring you the the pioneers. For the founder of Rolex hands will stove. The world was like a living laboratory. He began to use it as a testing ground for his watches from the nineteen fifties sending adding them to the most extreme locations supporting explorers who ventured into the unknown but the world has changed as the twentieth century unfolds exploration for pure discovery very has given way to it as a means to preserve the natural world. rolette continues this legacy of its founder supporting the explorers of day on the new mission to make the planet perpetual lead more with the pioneers in partnership with Rolex. You are listening to the briefing with me Andrew. Now Christmas is among other things. terrifically exciting time of year for the kind of person who enjoys visiting Christmas markets. This is presumably people who believe that they don't already own sufficient miniature mangers among the people who decide these things the Christmas market. Cassandra B Croatia's agreeable. Capital has always enjoyed high esteem. Zagreb's Christmas market has indeed been voted Best Christmas market in Europe. The last three years on the bounce will joining me now to explain why is Guy Delone. A Monaco's man both in the Balkans and in these stupid festive jumper. The reindeer on a Guy Zagreb's Christmas market. What's so exciting about it really? Well it really takes over the entire city Andrea if you if you think of Zagreb in this case as a house on a st maybe in in a suburb of some unfashionable city and somebody has gone totally town putting lights all over the front reindeer enslaves on the top illuminated snowman etcetera etcetera. Well this is grab right now so in the neighborhood of European Capitals Zagreb is what family in your street. Yeah exactly. It's very proud of it and the only reason that it's not going to win the best European Christmas this is market title for the fourth row is because they they bought them from the competition. They said you've won three years in a row and you can't come back somebody else's got to have a crack at it. See this is one of the many angles to this story. That intrigues me. Have you in your investigations. Being able to discover who the shadowy cabal who decide which is the best Christmas market in Europe if you go onto the European destinations website. It's the people who go on them. Bother to vote on top of this. Yes says more than two hundred and eighty thousand of. You have voted for the best Christmas box to Europe. It says this year and how many on the previous three years do we know how many of that Legion had post hosts codes more or less in the metropolitan area. I do wonder because New Entry at number ten. This year is obvious sad in Serbia and the first I am the Novi sods being on the last night do wonder how much people in Novi Sad were being. Nudged to get their votes. In on the best European destinations websites splendid has how has the fact of the disbarring from this prestigious contest caused a great deal of municipal angst in Zargreb. I think ties. But they've doubled down on on on what they're doing the game completely bonkers again this year and to give you an example of how important that says. This isn't just saying yeah. We've got more lights than you have. This is where attracting attracting more visitors than you are so last year. For example as Zagreb registered an increase of ten percent. In the number of arrivals and fifteen percent in overnight it stays the tourist board says there are one hundred twenty two thousand arrivals and two hundred. Thirty one thousand overnight stays. It's the biggest tourist event of the year in Zaire. Grab and of course also you know in some places that tore them season especially in Croatia. Where much of it is focused around the coast December's is fairly quiet. Time of year. Zagreb's done very well and making sure that people are still coming to cry. Even when the the sun is very far away in the C- isn't really what you want to be diving into because all jokes aside this that is a big deal photography business because our grabs a nice city. I've been there many many times but for people who probably only go to only rather going to go to Croatia. I should once in their lives. It's it's not the place most tourists are going to go to. They going to go to split and Dubrovnik and other places on the Dalmatian coast and the islands and they very cleverly and made it so the whole city from when you get off the train at Zagreb main railway station because some people will be arriving by train. The train rivals from northern within Europe have fairly reasonable and design grids. Any once you start going south down through the Balkans that are gets worse so as soon as you get off the train. The first thing you're going to see on Thomas Love Square is absolutely gigantic and utterly bonkers ice rink which has a standard sort of icy square. But it's also got this mazy little path which runs all over the place and and ball which sits on top of the whole Shebang. Have you done really fancy getting your skates on. He can sit there and watch people falling over on their rental skates which which will cause. They're not sharp. Andrey I can think of no more enjoyable way to spend Christmas in. I'm not at any level exaggerating for comic effect guide alone. Thank you as always for joining joining us. You're listening to the briefing Twenty four finally own. Today's briefing we are persisting with the idea which was not mine. I can not stress that highly enough of inviting members of the Monaco. Twenty four team to play their favorite Christmas songs. Today it is the turn of page rentals page. Welcome to the show. Hi Nj. This is an unusual one though because you have a more than usually intimate acquaintance with the song you you are about shoes by which I mean for those listeners. who weren't at our Christmas party? which is I suspect? Most of them You sang this at our Christmas party and listeners i. I'm not exaggerating at all. Just because page is sitting right here it was genuinely amazing. I feared for the show. I really mean that as a complement and the song is not an easy one to sing because it is it is all I want for Christmas. Is You Mariah Carey. And it's it's the the reason I I think the song is so great as both before and as someone listening to is it. Has that beginning section that site. That really emotional ballard so this thing and you can just show Eh then you can get the showing off out of the way and then suddenly becomes a pop banger and everyone's dancing which is quite difficult because when you're a singer and you're doing Shows and all your there's some quite down-tempo you kind of feel like you're not really giving the audience enough of a good time. You say this has both but I was curious especially about that that curious various little fanfare which intros which you did along with the rest of the song completely nail. Is it actually even for somebody who clearly can sing quite a difficult thing to say. I think what's difficult about. Is the timing over. Because it's not it's not acapella has this sort of big chords that punctuate amendments. But if you're doing it with the backing track and not live band you've got to really really now the timing but I don't know it depends what your range is on. I think you could. Nobody really nobody wants to hear that. It's not any different K.. O be fine. I don't show that key actually exists it does it does have For the limited vocalists. Oh costs among us. The the client of an appearance of a matterhorn or an everest. Yeah it's it's quite alarming. I suspect also most of our listeners. Need No reacquaintance Winton with what the damn song sounds like because it is one of the season's inescapable standards but dammit let's play some of it anyway It's just me. I don't care what the a Christmas to all mm-hmm You know how the rest of that goes by now. Those of you listening missed page Reynolds Miming Into that although not not singing which is why there is still glass between us. Been Concerned Steph manager might just put my mic up just for fun I had to my because of that. What is your recollections of your first associations with that song did it? Did it transfix you the very first time. I've got quite a few of Christmas memories tied to that song before before I got to go into those though I think Christmas song should always have that kind of classic fail. They've always been around. I've always heard them and this one's this is obviously throw Dr Phil Spector's Christmas album. That's what she was going for them right right and made hey. This song has always been part of the Christmas repertoire so this song was released in Nineteen Ninety four the arrows bowl and so it's always been pardon. My I find Christmas quite difficult. And they suddenly only come into the four sort of like what you're used to kind of feel your Christmas soundtrack. So it's definitely been a classic for me So as we've said I did perform the song out the Monica Crisis Party. Not My first rendition of that song in kind of public sort of like space so when I was living in Moscow As as a student of an Irish institution I was very kindly invited to the Irish embassy ball. I wish happened in December time and this may not surprise you but wants the Irish find out you can do music. You won't get to the end of the night without kind of you know performing So I was sort of saying. Oh no no no. Don't don't don't worry. And I was eventually dragged onto the stage and the housebound with that and they said Oh. Don't worry you know just to start singing. We'll we'll get the channel be fine. AH reminded me of is earlier and you said I should have brought my Ukulele. I'm sure it's only a few chords mandalit and now the thing about gotta absolutely not but I got up on stage and sort of sets the Barnum guessing this on that I absolutely fine started singing. It did the star. Acapella was waiting for the drums to kick in on the bench. Couldn't play it. They couldn't play the same so I had to do a bit of A. I'm not sure I've ever seen mean girls when the they do a little Christmas. Performance limits on the accidently kicked off the stage and it breaks so it was sort of that kind of moment and I just asked to start clapping and I had to do the whole thing. I could pile up with the whole of the will the bull members for the people in in Russia so that was an experience. How long did it feel like took? I think when you're up that you just get adrenaline. You're in you've got you've got to get the end show. must go on Kinda mode. So I sort of blanked from my memory as soon as I go down but I had some. I sat some more right feet box so not too bad. So that's obviously your favorite. Christmas song is a long drop off. The second place is is ready to consider when when I was asked to do this. Little segment I immediately think of Christmas. You A certain Ben Ryland from the medical team told me that was too basic so I said okay fine you know what another really okay. Great Criminal Christmas Song which is maybe a little bit less basic as it were Is River by Johnny Mitchell because this this song is sort of has the. It's it's around Christmas time. It's coming on Christmas cutting down the trees And the melody and the chords based on jingle boats as well However ben said that was too sad andrew honor the you know the big Joni Mitchell? I'm ready for even less likely to listen to Joni Mitchell record than Ukulele fair enough But this year it finally reached number one in the US charts. or I want for Christmas. Is You so it took into took until now. Yeah exactly ahead of your time as is always page page Reynolds. Thank you for joining us. Studies all four today. The briefing was produced by reese. James Antle Molin research by Yawning Goffin and to me studio manager while Steph Chungu. I'm Andrew Mullah. Thank you for listening listening.

Donald Trump United States president prime minister Pakistan Bill Clinton Senate Boris Johnson United Kingdom Nancy Pelosi Murray Lecomte Prime Minister Imran Khan Mush Republicans Republican party Australia Richard Nixon Europe Democratic Party
Friday 20 March

Monocle 24: Midori House

30:29 min | 1 year ago

Friday 20 March

"This is Monaco's house view coming up today. The best advice for Africa is to prepare for the worst and prepare today. It's actually better if these numbers are really true to cut it from the bud a warning from the WHO to Africa over covert nineteen my guests. Yasmine Abdulmajid and Michael will discuss that and the days of the news including as South Africa fences off its border with Zimbabwe. Are we about to witness a further UPTICK IN NATIVE ISM? Who might a global problem? Prompts Greater Global Solidarity? And what do we make of the astonishing catalyzing of online community building? And how can it be sustained plus all reflect on what we have learned from one of the weirdest weeks of the twenty first century? I'm Andrew Mullet Monaco's house view starts. Now welcome to the show joined by Michael Binion Foreign Affairs expert at the times and Yasmin Abdulmajid the writer and broadcaster the covert nineteen outbreak. As we understand all too well by now is a global problem. Some parts of the world however have learned this early of others and in other parts the worst remains yet to come as is the case with all disasters. This will be rougher on countries which lack resources a disproportionate quantity of which are in Africa. Relatively few cases have as yet been confirmed across the continent but there seems little chance that such numbers will not rise Nigeria with a population of one. Hundred and Sixty. Two million has so far reported. Eight cases a Azman. First of all I don't want to indulge in ghoulish catastrophe icing but how prepared African countries. For what might be about to hit them. Well it's a tough question and I think. Different countries on the continent are going to have different levels of readiness and my family being into that is you know. Sudan is not a country that is known for health infrastructure. And so I think it's going to have a lot more difficulty simply because the resources on a and people are already struggling with all sorts of all the issues you know. These are not nations sadly that a stable and unhealthy holy. I think they're all the challenge of course is also as mentioned the testing numbers a significantly lower and getting out to test people and someone is going to be a challenge in of itself and so in a a lot of these countries are dealing or trying to to sort the situation out sort of blindly. Because they don't know how many people they need to prepare full load of a lot of the infections. Initially what coming in as in many other cases from from travelers who've come back to wherever whatever country it might be but I think generally these countries are not as prepared from an infrastructure point of view. However what I would say is that a lot of folks. Anecdotally are prepared for outbreaks. Right like people are accustomed to deal. You've you've got Ebola. In West Africa. That happened a few years ago. So you do have an institutional level of understanding of how to isolate and song the question that becomes the same way that we've looked here in Britain. What you've got an NHS or a health service that is overwhelmed because of this exponential rise in numbers. What happens when okay. Yes we have the institutional knowledge perhaps to do with this bit. We simply don't have the number of beds Markaz. Yasmin suggests Senate is an extremely thickly. Disguised blessing but Africa does have frequent and recent experience of dealing with pandemics. Most obviously famously. The relatively race into Bowler outbreak. Is there any hope at all? That may provide. We've certain advantages certain foreknowledge. I think there is yes. I think that the suddenly there in the West Africa the experience of how to Break Asia habits of everyone crowding around for funerals and things like that Was successful in the end. Although it met some resistance and I think those lessons I've been widespread and Africa is well. You Know Africans are web. What's happening elsewhere on? Their incontinent and those lessons are not just confined to west Africa. I think that's a very important thing. There are regional centers of health. Excellence in the big cities in Africa particularly Kenya South Africa Other countries where. There's some fairly well developed systems And I think the difficulty is of course to break habits of people joining in things together and get people to isolate now. That's that's quite difficult in. An African context realized relation is very difficult. Yes man as we were discussing at the top and is he caught correctly observed you different countries in Africa will respond to this in different ways. And I'm I'm very much trying to avoid the whole Africa is a country trope here But does it strike you? That some might be better prepared for this than others. I think so and it depends on a number of different things. It depends on the sort of quit level of of health infrastructure development. It also depends on how the levels of trust and communication within the population so is is country where people have it sending tons of misinformation out. What's up groups and nobody's going to listen to anything that comes from an authority or is it a place that people have. Some understanding of the authorities are at least in this case. Probably to be listened to and so on. I think the the challenge of course is one of the challenges is the level of trust in authorities around this and we've even again seen that in in Western countries where people are not listening to leaders or not listening to advice at coming at partly because the advice mine will be cleared but also partly. Because there's this sort of people aren't used to these sorts of changes and so when you have to break those habits as rightly pointed out it you have to have the same messaging over and over and over until there's a critical mass of people doing that and I think certainly again deadly in Sudan. I know that there's been a real shift like once. The the government decided to shut down the airport. Just sort of with immediate effect leaving some people stuck in transit all over the world but what it did mean is that it immediately. Sort of shot through. The system and people started changing their behaviors. I think that is one element of it but again I mean. Obviously South Africa's probably going to be better prepared than you know the Democratic Republic of Congo for example because of what already is going on in various places and I just think heartfully if there is infrastructure to for the centers of excellence to also communicate That will allay some of the difficulties. Hopefully Mark Cubin and Yasmin Abdulmajid. We'll have more from you both in just a moment. But first here is Monaco's Marcus Hippie. With some of the other stories we're following today. Thanks through California has told residents to stay at home in a bid to stop the spread of Corona Virus Governor Gavin Newsom at the California Institute only their homes when necessary during the pandemic he estimates half of the forty million people in his state will contract to Code. Nineteen in the next two months. Argentina's become the first Latin American country. To impose a nationwide lockdown lead us are also known seeing on obligatory quarantine to curb the spread of Corona virus. Argentina's already closed. Its borders for a total of fifteen days and suspended flights from other countries leading British scientists. Say That restricting social context could be needed for at least half off the year in order to stop postal units becoming overwhelmed the UK government's scientific advisor say the measures could include isolating individuals and households and finally sundry railway line in northeastern Japan has resumed operations five months after it was badly damaged by a powerful typhoon. The linus been a symbol of reconstruction seen as the two thousand eleven earthquake and soon army which inflicted serious damage to its facilities. Those are the headlines now back to enter. Thanks Marcus this is molecules house view Amanullah. Still with me yes. Abdulmajid and Michael. Binion let's move along slightly and look at one African board. The one separating South Africa from Zimbabwe South Africa has announced that it will build forty kilometers offense along to keep out migrants and so South Africa insists covert nineteen. Although no cases have been confirmed in Zimbabwe. It would seem unlikely that one country had escaped. It feels like a signal of something is a moment at which closing borders has suddenly become not merely justifiable but perhaps necessary going to be seized by unscrupulous. Nativist MICHAEL. Let's look at this border. Specifically we know by now. Corona virus is no respect of international. Frontiers is this largely a cosmetic exercise. Yes I think it is something to show that. The government is Taking steps to protect its own people and that it's not going to allow Hundreds or thousands of others to flee into what may be a better healthcare system. Not that they're likely to do so especially if they're coming from a country which doesn't have kind of in nineteen. Yeah it's going to country which already does is just an IT's It's a populist gesture and as such I'm afraid it's rather damaging it's inevitable regain to have gestures of this kind It's a it's a waste of time. I mean you know if the border fence it's only gonna be forty kilometers or whatever. Just go a bit further on and come around the other end of it. I mean it's it's frankly pointless but it may have an underlying message that Trust ourselves and Keep foreigners out which I think is a nationalistic message. We're gonNA see increasingly across the continent. The yes men. I think it's something worryingly. I suspect to a to see everywhere because the one of the great rallying cries of xenophobes a nativist in recent years especially has been. We can't take any more people in. We can't help the ones we have. If that becomes literally true does that empower them all the more? Yeah it's it's been fascinating to sort of see The closing down of borders the weld and this sort of this which initially of course is about actual requirements for. Stop the virus coming in from travelers. But I do think I do worry about measures that is that the famous court which is sort of like nothing's more permanent than a temporary government program or a temporary government measure and. I think part the challenges once once you've got a crisis that allows for these sorts of quite drastic things too drastic policy changes. Will there be a a huge fight to to change. The rhetoric wants things US sort of settle down or once. You know we've got a vaccine or whatever the endpoint of of this pandemic is I even again here in the UK is a comparison point. The was Boris Johnson I put out new policies around. You know the the sort of police having extra powers to detain folks and so on and of course if you've got a country that's locked down in order to protect its people fine but what point these postseason decisions going to be abused in. How do we make sure we? We don't allow things to pass. That haven't been scrutinized appropriately at. I do think it's a really fine line between protecting people in times of crisis and studying to sneak into Mozambique Ole nativist rhetoric even Donald Trump still closest to Chinese virus. Right it's in because then you can sort of make this thing that we can find by looking down our borders the fact that even virus is being personified as a you know an outsider or an other should be something that we are quite concerned about Michael. Do you think it's possible at all? For us to indulge the hope that this crisis may lead to a certain widespread finding out of populist Yahoos who have in recent years been insisting that you know there are simple solutions to problems and all we need to do is do these very simple things and we can fix everything if only you would listen to me. Well I think it does depend on whether the science works whether people feel that scientists have been making in western countries and are clearly guiding policy whether they have actually come up with the best solution possible. And if that's the case then there will be massive new respect for certainly scientific experts medical experts. There will be a new emphasis on the importance of general health. It would be probably a better Kinda society certainly for a while. But I also think it's important that the fakes and the fake news peddlers are shown up pretty quickly and that is that is coming out. There's been a lot of denunciation at some of the more ridiculous things circulating the trouble. Is they have plenty of time to do it. And they can do a lot of damage and cause a lot of anxiety and fighting anxieties half the battle in trying to keep the country. All countries Sane and healthy. Yes men all putting. Is that too much to hope question to you as well? Which is that you might like to think. Maybe that an actual global problem and short of actual invasion by Martians. It's hard to imagine what more global a problem we could have in the short term anyway. Is there any hope? Do you think that it might actually reduce xenophobia? It's I mean there's nothing like a common enemy to unite people right and typically that common enemy has been some slow to the other that if the common enemy is. Virus is something that is indiscriminate In it's in the damage. It inflicts hats. There is a hope. And it's been something that I have been yoyoing about is sort of will this. Will this ushering? In an era of people working from home and smiling at their neighbors and helping each other out. I think partly it also depends how long it goes full right. If this is a couple of weeks. Perhaps it might not break behaviors but if learn the situation for a few months for Lunga we end up in a situation where we cannot. We cannot pretend that the world is the same as it was in two thousand nineteen. Then I think it's it's unprecedented. You know the compassion has been the play the Spanish influenza. They've been all sorts of comparisons made to the period. Oeste these huge moments and what changed in society. And certainly I think There is huge potential in something as global as this to change politics certainly in the immediate future. So we'll wait and see well does to your the last subject for today's news panel quite nicely because as crises invariably do this one has unleashed a kind of mad energy and much of it so far at least pretty positive generous and enterprising. This has been occurring largely online which is understandable as. We're all going to be spending a lot more time there. Yes man I'll ask you first As this panels representative of the younger online generations. What is left out at you so far I have never had so many zoom close in my life even sure I know what a zoom call it. Some whether it's facetime or any other type of video cooling. I have actually chatted with friends and obviously I'm. I'm a grew up in Australia. So a huge bunch of my friends are in Australia and her in other time zones around the world. I have not chatted chatted more with my friends around the world in the last week that I have maybe in the last three years which I don't know is an indictment of my personality and my ability to keep in touch with people or the current status quo. But certainly I think because everybody's online everyone's just sitting at home on the Internet. Well a large portion whoever can I think is sitting at home? The Internet You've all of a sudden got people with a whole bunch of time on their hands. A whole bunch of plans that have been canceled and people figuring out what to do and I think this certainly also this as you say the strange energy. That's been unleashed. Everyone wants to kind of say something. We'll do something. We'll be contributing in some sort of way because it. We all social creatures. I am really curious as to how long lost but do you think they'll be really interesting. New Patents Develop Michael as this panels representing representative of what? I'm going to describe as a more distinguished. Have you noticed anything of the sort yourself? Yes well I've actually got the blooming virus myself right now. I'm pretty coming out of it It's the last more or less the last day. And I'm I'm very very lucky that I had a really mild Dose I didn't have in a raging temperature and Michael speak to us a journalist journalistic term way to bury the lead. Well I'm but so white on White Daniele Speaker when you've listened to this broadcast but I mean I have been hot in by festival. Lots of neighbors coming along and You know no shortage of We'll we'll bring food or whatever you want. Lots of people The other thing is technology. I'm pretty sure at that. But at least you know you can talk to Children and grandchildren. What have a Again to have to rely on ourselves. being Luckily I have all space and things to go out and take fresh out and all that. So but psychologically. It's very important Supporters Psychologically. It's important not to overdose with the tough news. I mean you have to limit how much you followed in every detail on the thing is if you're interested in music or something switch to that area that's a completely different world. You'll find it really really calming and relaxing takes it out of you take takes you away from things so there are lots of things. I do find this sort of positive. Spirit neighborhood communities those have helped lots and You know I'm really lucky. Yes when if you thought personally about what you might be able to contribute in that kind of respect in terms you know you. You are somebody with large online platform and as I've been discovering in the last twenty four hours during which reasons I will not go into. I've mostly been trying to explain Australian rules football to dozens of curious. Spaniards just not. I'm not sure that's how I imagined I would spend my time during a pandemic but such is the world we live in. What are you planning to do Yasmine with your audience and your access to it? Yeah it's again something. I've been spending quite a bit of time thinking about I mean. Yesterday I had a Alive instagram session with a friend of mine. Who's a chef? She was moss chef industry and we went through my pantry and she gave me advice on what things could make a pandemic out with all the things that I have in my kitchen which was slightly embarrassing up for me because it showed up how little I knew about cooking. Certainly This there's also I mean I have been thinking about what to offer and some of it has been around or I'm going to open up. Do Mentoring sessions coffee now. Mentoring sessions around Krizan sort of things for young people who are on my platform. I'm also My my loss was a young adult fiction novel Sir. I'm contemplating I think next week. I'll be doing live readings on my on my facebook and Instagram of me. Reading the book out loud and. I think I'm not the only person doing this. I've got friends who've sort of done live poetry and at live music and so on and it's been even live coffee making like Bristol friends. Obviously in the hospitality industry has been completely wiped out the now doing sort of like how to make a perfect coffee at home. A live streaming someone. I think it is what will be again interesting. Is How long can we maintain this? I'm really curious about it and I'm also curious about. How do I know overwhelm people because everyone right now wants to do the same? Also pop the mutual aid groups in my local area and we have significantly more people that want to help. Then need help. And so whether that will change over time or whether it's actually really great thing and now we're gonNA make connection than the local community. That weren't there before I'm just. I'm really curious. Yeah it's it's certainly a really interesting time to be alive. Markle just finally and just briefly speaking as somebody who has had this by the sound of it getting through it which is outstanding news. Is there anything you can pass on to people who find themselves getting ill because obviously it's not going to be just getting ill? It's going to be the worry about the end. Just the panic. I mean that actually makes it much worse. It's sort of thinking of all the awful possibilities I mean. It's just try to train yourself to think positive. Keep positive focused on the things that Relax your mind I mean it could be anything I mean if you feel up to it and can do crosswords or something like that. Most people you know people say waste of time or watch something. Don't I mean it sounds silly but from journalists but don't overdo overdose on the bad news because that would just make you anxious and that is not good And then yeah think about You know what's come through. And what do you do value your family relationships enormously and much more than you thought you would. Do you know people you've been with all your life. You see them afresh and think. Wow how important for me And that is a very positive message Yasmine Abdulmajid and Michael. Thank you Michael get-well-soon in a moment we'll be hearing a little bit more about what exactly we have learned this week. It's hard to know where to start. You're listening to Mongols House view stay tuned. This is Monaco's house view. I'm Andrew finally today time for my weekly reflection on what we learned. We learned this week. At least the beginnings of how the cove nineteen outbreak is going to disrupt our lives around the world skies have emptied of planes roads of Qasr streets of people's schools of students workplaces of workers. French President Emmanuel Macron went so far in an address to a nation which has living memory of occupation by malign invader and therefore does not chuck this rhetoric around lightly as to say the country was now at war in focus on the responsibility also contacted the place. He don't do enough you don't do. We learn something of how rough this is going to be economically all at once industries in which millions of people make their livings have slowed. Down OR HALTED. Here is the film critic. Karen presented Bitch on Tuesdays. Briefing film industry is generally like a circus. I mean what you get sucked into. It can be kind of Don't come out. But yes of course. Some people will find other ways of making a living off and moved on to become artists or like that. But but these people aren't there technical creatives and that's something quite difficult fit so I know that there are some people that are driving forklifts right now. Just try and sort of make ends meet. So we learned that if you're more fortunate than most now is outstandingly. Good time to spend money on that local business. You treasure or subscribe to that media outlet which you'll be relying on to keep you abreast of whatever lies ahead but we learned and we'll hopefully learn to better appreciate that any virus which likes its chances will have to contend with some of the world's clever a people one of them. Cambridge University virologist. Dr Chris Smith talked on Thursdays globalist and briefing about the race for a vaccine. Well the way in which this is approached is festival you got to understand what vaccine do vaccine educates the body's immune system so it can recognize something and that way it produces all of the things the immune system would produce journey natural infection but they're premade and ready to go before you encounter the thing for real so that when you doing council thing for real there. Isn't this catch up by the immune system while the disease runs amok. We also learned that one of the many things which may end up. Being briskly rethought is brexit which you might recall being all the rage just a few weeks back the UK has until June to seek an extension to its present transition period. Prime Minister Boris Johnson has hitherto suggested that nothing could be less thinkable this week however you have another question. What was the device another subject? What was it is this up getting vanished It's been done I the I. It's not a subject that's being regularly discussed. I can tell you in dining speed at the moment and getting on with the legislative legislation in place that I have no intention of changing the phrase. No intention is not one of the most recognizable get-out clauses in politics. There was a time when Boris Johnson would say much the same about the prospect of seeking to leave his country. I would've Johnson being meters. That has a finding a job as president on the malls set. Actually we learned that lots of things really almost everything has been postponed foreseeable but the inevitable cancellation of the Eurovision song contest felt in the circumstances and especially bitter blow. This is obviously nothing to do with the quality of the music. Usually furnished by the pan-continental wobbling tournament because they usually is no quality but like few other institutions. Eurovision seems to represent what we're going to have to learn to live without for awhile something silly and joyous and harmless and as much fun indeed. Some of US would argue more so to deride as appreciate here is Monaco's indefatigable unveiled and Resolute Eurovision Desk Chief Fernando Augusta Pacheco on Thursdays briefing. First Time in sixty four years that the events not happening I. It's remarkable I I. I believe the event we remain Rotterdam next year. They decided to cancel so because there was talk that would be without an audience. I don't think they want that So we don't always acts from zero. We'll we'll go ahead for next year. There's two lots to be discussed. But we learned that we will not be left to struggle along entirely without fatuous Lee sentimental lyrics sung badly to nursery rhyme melodies four. We also learned that. There is no historical moment so grave. That a bunch of sanctimonious posers from the dressing up and pretending trade one to -SSUME that what we really want now is a mortgage rendition of the worst song ever written which No hell below or above. Imagine any of them. It's what they won't on and we at least we fretful. Sports fans wondering. How are we going to fill days or weeks of confinement learned that at least one sport is willing to call play on as almost everything else went into hibernation the Australian league the top flight competition of Australian rules football started. It's twenty twenty season as scheduled. I Kai let's have a little listen to this because this is something we've never seen before in football and experience as much of the atmosphere here as we tend to blows about to run out onto the hallowed to the MCA J. Way Main today's nigh band there's not a sport and there are no fan. The Games have been shortened and the stadium's locked. But it's there for the moment at least and there will never be a better time to get into what one stolen Prime Minister Robert. Menzies correctly described the greatest winter games devised by mortal man. This segment take seriously its role as an impartial servant of the truth and would never so much as dream as influencing any listener visa the which Australian rules team they should support and now some music cut greatest also. Aw that's all for today. Showed Monaco's house view is produced by Augustine match. Alario Judea manages with Steph chong-ku and Christie Evans. Coming up twenty hundred brand new edition of the Menu Multiples. House view returns at nine. Am Tomorrow London. Time I'm Andrew Mula. Thanks for listening.

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How to move forward with China; and should Beethoven be 'cancelled?'

Between The Lines

29:07 min | 3 months ago

How to move forward with China; and should Beethoven be 'cancelled?'

"This is an abc podcast. This is tom switzer. And welcome to between the lines on radio. National always great to heavy company. Coming up should beethoven be cancelled the growing course of critics slam the german composer as being creature off wash privilege. Two hundred fiftieth anniversary of his birth. We'll pay tribute to beethoven. Stay with us. But i china's intimidation campaign against camera beijing to fourteen point list of grievances via the australian media. Second wine joined beef. Bali timber lobster call among our exports that the chinese communist party has imposed tariffs on. And then that tweet. This is the tweet of the posting of a digitally altered of an australian soldier about to slit the throat of an afghan child. The chinese embassy issuing a bellicose statement the rage in roar of some ustralian politicians and media was misreading and reaction. It said to deflect public attention from the horrible atrocities by sickness soldiers and to blame china for the worsening of bilateral ties. So what's going on. He and asha camera respond. Jeff rabi is a former australian ambassador to the people's republic of china and he's author of china's grand strategy and australia's feature in the new global order. That's just been published and it's available in all good bookstores jeff. Welcome back to the show so some great to be back now. I your thoughts about beijing's response to australia in recent weeks so we have that list of the foreign complaints the wind terrace and of course that tweet while a say i up disappointing to see the slights that have been made After the two quite constructive comments at the triumph prime minister a last week quite clearly. The prime minister was Diplomatically signaling That there was a strong wish to start a process of getting back to some sort of more normal relationship between the two countries the product make though it sounds dramatic when you run those three things together the way you have done that certainly not the same thing. And i'm not sure that they're all necessarily coordinated. I mean the fourteen points clearly seems to be freelancing by the embassy on matters that well known and in the public record in any case at a very odd way of putting something out if you leak it to a channel nine television crew that seems to be pretty casual behavior by the embassy then the tariff spo there has been a processing trained for months on the wind tariffs and i do understand that that was the normal process and the strain companies were busily making written submissions as part of that process. And then the tweet The present time it sounds like it's been contrived by the chinese foreign ministry as individual action. it was a tweet that was particularly widely on social media by a now nationalist artist and twitter and the foreign ministry spokesperson on his private twitter account. Pinder to name and so it's philippine. Middle level action doesn't really look to millions of any of these really coordinated broad cross section of the australian people just looking at the y. People who've responded this week is there is outrage and surely win china. does things like. This doesn't make it harder for people like you because you've been an eminent company on this issue for several years now. Hugh watt a bobcar. Pass gas on this program. Of course the former prime minister paul keating. Doesn't it make it hot. A all of you to make the case that al leaders should try to rebuild trust with such a regime yet. I can understand the public outrage especially the media is going into overdrive steer and just as you have said running all these things together as a coordinated action from the state It does make it harder to get sensible constructive discussion going a story about how we deal with these things. I like to find myself in such august company as you outlined. And you might add gareth evans. Many others that to the group as well but it certainly history doesn't help and it's difficult context in which to conduct foreign policy. What we're seeing is what is like to live in the situation with china relationships In a very poor state now. Other people in camera that i see welcome this their peopling camera who have the view that bad relations with china are inevitable. This is the new normal. We should get used to it and lupus it while the questioning myself. And the august company you've being linking me with. Is this the best interest of australia. And it also basic question. Your what has australia down to bring on china's in this way why you think china is picking on again. Picking on is quite pejorative. They're not doing this to other states. Our other key point. And i would phrase that differently tom i would say how is it that astray amongst like minded friends and allies other liberal democracies in the world in the region why's at the trial has become an outlaw and i think that really needs to be part of the public discussion. Isn't the reason. The australia is so over exposed to chinese pressure in beijing. Nosy so the chinese leaders going to inflict pain on australia whenever they can't australia. And not the other like minded way boy more. In other countries we ought to forty percent of our exports to china. No other country has that kind of exposure. I prefer countries in the region. China is by far the largest trading power. I mean that exposure would be the same for korea south korea which is liberal democracy in the region. it would be near that level. For nearly all the countries in the east asian region china is the dominant economic patna of all of the countries in the region and that is just a fact at its reflects. The extent to which china has grown as the dominant economic power in east asia. Alexander downer. The former. Foreign minister says that now's the time to reduce our exposure to china. But what everyone is saying. There's nothing new novel in that. And obviously when people start to realize that we are going to have for a long time a difficult and challenging relationship with china's manage. That's a fairly obvious. Point to make interesting from In addition to being former minister former director of the board of while clay. And very active Proponent in boosting. Australia china trade relations phrase time as soon as minister and i work very closely with him in that and i think we achieved a lot. So why wouldn't you wanna diversify every sensible business. Every sensible company diversifies the port made over and over again on this aspect is that it's going to be very hard. Because of the absolute scale and growth and prosperity of china. You are a foreign policy realist. All gripe house ruthless and that includes chana hardball at every turn and the stronger. China gets the more likely to throw its wide around now to the extent. These realist analysis is correct. How on earth do we solve. this problem. absolutely correct agree with all those points. Another point that needs to be made. And you don't make it much tom. And your pride yourself as being a realist and that is the relationship is asymmetrical that is effect. We need china. More than china needs us. This is not a comfortable place for us to be but it's a place we are. It's a place where we're stack and will remain and so We need to work out how to manage that relationship and we haven't done a particularly good job of a judging by the state rewritten today. So although you express yourself in a different way you essentially gray with the foreign policy realists professor join me shauna regular guest on this program and he argues that his china's power increases its definition of its national interests will grow and then beijing will seek a survey influence in areas on which its future security and prosperity dependent in response. The us will go to great lengths to stop china's rises. It essentially. your argument is well up a poet. I'm a great Admire of joint mish as well. I differ with him on a couple of points but his analysis and arguments have been hugely influential in helping me shape my thinking about these But i put on sphere of influence is. I think that's already happened. I think china is the dominant paranagua this at length in my book in eurasia from the east china sea to also china is the dominant parent. That's happened largely because sanctions against russia poor economic performance by russia Pushback from from europe against russia has meant that brushes had to cede to china's ascendancy in eurasia and so very part of the world. And i think we now live in a world of michigan talks about a world of two great powers with boundary orders and in the question then becomes is some equilibrium at stable between the two. And i believe there is. I i that will add like may china of the cost and the speed at which would escalate into nuclear war. And that there's a need for the great powers. And i think biden is as shadow this to cooperate on the global commons in things like climate change pandemics or could be legal immigration so there will be areas of competition and i think pretty much. The water is like that. And that's the will we have to learn to navigate. It's not just me. Sean got peter jennings at sp paul debate. I knew among others who would highlight at china's escalating defense build up the buildup of military outposts beyond its border in the south china sea. It's persistent cyber espionage. It's pumped up nationalism. A huge propaganda disinformation campaigns. What's happening in hong kong. Possibly taiwan all of that. That doesn't sound very painful though. Jeff it's very comfortable world we live in and that's the last third of my book is called australia's disturbed future and we can't shy away from any of this. I'm not suggesting that is. I think there's a large problem is a lot of foreign policy destroyer being the revision mira lousy. That's starting to be updated quite quickly. Which is welcome but i think when dealing with china and getting a policy settings we have to come to grips with a couple of questions is china and existential threat to try and i argue. It's not the bulk of the book. Talks about china as the constraint. Superpower will rather but presumably committee is bound. And what is china's intent might be we can project the most evil designs on china's intent. What does its capacity. And there's a huge difference between intent and capacity. And i think we have to realist deal with the capacity. Not the intent. Now some of the things you mentioned absolutely powers behave in their own interest in an often behavour in ways which like. I just want to pick up a point on on hong kong for example because hong kong's have a tricky in this respect because it's actually part of chinese territory. It was given back to beijing communist. I july nineteen ninety-seven by the british colonial powers without any consultation with hung on people. And at the time i was there there was a huge outpouring of fauria that hung's going back to the motherland back to the mainland and i was happened is when the demonstrators like last year started early for independence and burning chinese flag and Hurry up the british flag itself effectively. All bets on the one-country-two-systems were off. And what's set of hong kong practices contact with counterproductive. Think so simply. Twenty forty seven speak collapsed into the president. This is between the lines with tom. Switzer making sensible straight is place in the world jeff. Rabies new book is called china's grand strategy and australia's future in the new global order. Many australians would support library coalition the position on side. The federal government's foreign interference laws the decision to reject y y five g the digital network bid and of course in april the coal for an inquiry into the origins of the coronavirus and yet china has responded in an overwhelmingly hostile mana. What could what could have done differently. Well first of all. I absolutely agree that Sovereignty has to be protected. And these meshes. Each runners-up is perfectly reasonable in terms of national security and our sovereignty. It's how we present opposition on these matters. Take away for example. We were the first by years to introduce a fully comprehensive ban on while clay. Okay that may be justified. We didn't need to make a big deal of that either i. We didn't have to have the most dryden voice on the south china sea in the. Hey judgment down. Twenty six to eight. We anti-fraud interference laws absolutely necessary. Should have been there years ago. Probably we didn't have to have the prime minister of the day speaking chinese paraphrasing bouncy doom to make the chinese lose face and it's exactly the same thing with the inquiry inquiry into the origin of the lowy institute paul at this stage if it showed that seventy seven percent of australians. Think quote we should do more to resist. China's military actions in our region even as it affects our economic relations. Is there something to this argument. That security wise trump's prosperity in international politics and to the extent that china is seen to be threatening our national sovereignty. We will always go with security over prosperity. That's right absolutely but then the question becomes. What is the threat. Have real how extensive. And what is the cost. And i think there's almost no discussion that those who had the security dimension about what the cost is going to be once you start talking about cost people in ask. Well have rules threat. Have because what's happening. I mean we hear politicians endlessly talking about protecting values. I'm yet to see what families are under threat or if they are the threat what what has happened. I mean i don't see Astray has changed. In fact i think the attitude as indicated by the lowy poll has substantially higher than against china. I didn't see china making inroads the toll so the question is what price we paying do. We need to pay this price and discussion about this. Well some people might to say that china threatens our academic freedom elaine pearson who's on faculty at the university of new south wales and she's the australian director of human rights watch. She climbs who work was Attacked by the chinese leadership or at least the academic authorities at the university of new south. Wales will worried that the chinese leadership would be upset by some of their research so they pulled down that initially at least they pull the on some of her research and mess just one example of some fees that china does threaten our academic freedom. How would you respond to that. I respond exactly That we need to hot net defenses. must've concede anything of that and in fact in my book have lung chapter on the failure of chinese soft power. How it's being unable to really project soft pair because it all has to go through the narrative of the chinese communist party and in that chapter i talked at length about the confucius institutes and again what i see. The confucius institutes are in retreat around the world precisely because of this and precisely because The west is strong and capable of having its reaction to china If it's under threat. So i think that that the battle is being won and yes it will be a period where we have to learn what china's up to learn and discover it then we can had offenses against jeff that brings us to washington change in leadership did. Do you think the incoming baden administration will change the nature of the us. china relationship with most deadly. The rhetoric language attitude. And everything will change. And i think that's going to be very helpful for stray. It will provide policy space for frustration. Secondly biden's might very clear in these foreign policy articles that he will want to pursue issues on the global commons climate change. Obviously he's not one pandemic as well. Maybe issues like illegal people movements and so on to do that. He'll have to cooperate with china and to corporations china you need to have a constructive bilateral relationship mind you the. Us and many other countries have many slip electoral relationships with china. Much better than we have. I mean they will still have high-level official political context and so i think We will see a different approach by the us to china but there will be still areas of strategic competition and as dumb power the us will continue to to resist the ascended pow. Am i right in saying that you agree with you. Why is essentially alone and we can't rely on our great and powerful friend. The united states robert menzies once called america absolutely and jomon john mccarthy and many many other people in the strategic defence community ending the diplomatic immunity and that leads us to the conclusion book. That is wouldn't matter how much money we spent on defense. we should spend more on external defence. Should spend more to hat now. Internal defense resided security. And so on but we can never spend enough to defend the country. I only hope is through that are greater diplomacy and we need to get back to resource seeing a diplomatic efforts Be more creative in diplomatic efforts. And i think that's the key point but doesn't cambridge you that already. We've just signed a defense agreement with japan. We've got the quadrilateral relationship that includes india but we also expanding our diplomatic and economic relations with much of southeast asia. Anyway what we have begun to do that and much of it is very very recent. The thinking of the book is it goes back eight years but much of a very recent and what i welcome in a realist. Sense is for example how sudden embrace of vietnam albeit with just follow the us down the past. But i welcome it because We've now embraced A one party authoritarian communist state with terrible human rights record. I can think of another state in the region that those adjectives comfortably apply to public data because vietnam leans against china on the quad. Though i have always had a different point. I still maintain that point. The quad consists of three other countries which is china's strategic competitors. China is not a strategic competitor of australia we have no historical issues as angus houston a couple of weeks ago said in the guy he was the fulmer head of the idea of china is not our enemy. China has ongoing territory. She's with japan. India and of course With the us in terms of Disempower challenging with dominant power but we are not part of that group and yet we are is seventy s to be part of the quad. Better are would say to refashioned. According to a tourist octo something and bring in countries like vietnam new zealand. Indonesia korea you need to broaden that so it's not seen as an anti-china coalition which currently is a prison. Jeff always great to be with you on radio national top my pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for having me. That's jeff rabi. He's a former australian ambassador to the people's republic of china and author of china's grand strategy and australia's feature in the new global order. Well this month marks the two hundred fiftieth anniversary of the birth of ludwig van. Beethoven an recent weeks a chorus of critics has emerged to bemoan hogan's fame. According to an article in vox quote wealthy white main embraced by heaven and turned his symphony into a symbol of their superiority. Important the vauxhall article goes on to say quote for some other groups women. Lgbtq people people of color bite hogan's fifth symphony may be predominantly a reminder of classical music's history of exclusion. Well then is this. This is chris watt. He's an assistant. Professor of music. Theory at the university of massachusetts is riding in slice magazine. He calls classical music buffs to adopt quote full naming and to stop calling beethoven by his last name. He goes on to say quote. This alarming practice simply fortifies quite centuries of systematic prejudice exclusion sixes them and racism. Well to put a different view and to defend beethoven. Let's welcome back to radio. National jacob. tilbern. He's editor of the national interest magazine in washington and a senior writer at the absolute sound. Can i jacob. Thank you tom. Now does by hoven represent white privilege in the league isn't quite the contrary. Beethoven himself emerged from humble circumstances. He grew up in the small city of bonn and had a very difficult upbringing. A father who is a drunkard could beat him as a child. The family had very little money. Beethoven had to rely on benefactors to further his career and he only hit the big time when he traveled to vienna and Started to study under frontiers of haydn but unlike mozart nothing came easily. Beethoven his whole life was a struggle for acceptance and he was not in any way an elitist only in terms of performance in accomplishment but he dedicated his third symphony to napoleon who he initially saw as a liberator of europe and beethoven believed in the equality of men in the universal brotherhood. You've written in the washington post. The bite hyphen wasn't in mar of the french revolution and his spouse The valleys of the enlightenment. He did indeed and he marks a zora in classical music because prior to him most musicians had in fact been court musicians and they were reliant upon the aristocracy for their livelihood and beethoven struck out on his own he a self made man yes but bite husband did have aristocratic patrons in vienna road. There was no way around that and but they did not exercise hold on him that frontiers of haydn essentially almost an indentured servant at the esterhazy court in hungary beethoven would get commissions from aristocratic patrons but he in no way was controlled by them. He was an independent man. My guess is jacob hilburn way mocking the two hundred fiftieth anniversary of beethoven's death and we're talking about in the context of this cancel culture So your point Jacob is beethoven never trickled to the aristocracy and that no way did bite. Hogan's passion for liberty express itself more powerfully than in these music. that's correct both in his opera fidelio which is about Liberating a political prisoner from a dungeon which was a coded message to the habsburg empire and in his ninth symphony which has been repeatedly played including by leonard bernstein after the fall of the berlin wall to celebrate universal brotherhood and mankind and those sentiments are powerfully expressed in his music. Is you mentioned. Fidelis this hoven oprah that after war two. It was played off the Well across the to celebrate the downfall of hitler right and because the australians and initially welcomed. Hitler i don't know if we call it liberation or simply the end of world war two in austria but it certainly was played to mark the overthrow of the nazi tyranny. The truth is that he expresses a powerful drive for freedom and even human rights. Yes so by hogan's passion for liberties best reflected in these music but the critics are out in force and this she has really been a watershed moment for this so-called cancel culture. We'd seen all around the world a western world at least statues being torn down. Desecrated statues of great figures of history and there are calls to discriminate against people. Who have unfashionable views. But it might surprise a lot of people cancel. Culture is starting to to influence Great musicians heavy. You count for these. well let's face. The cancel culture is running amok in western civilization and the interesting thing about western civilization is that it contains the seeds for its own revival. If you look at beethoven he is a rebel. He's not a conformist. He's not a white male elitist use modern parlance. In fact. you could seem kind of freedom. Fighter the western tradition contains the ingredients for renewal. It is not. By definition oppressive caller this is unadulterated nonsense. That is being purveyed by these cancel culture proponents in so despite what the detractors i jacob. The moment has not arrived for bite hyphen. Rollover jacob great to be with you. Thanks so much for being on radio national. Thank you tom. Jacob hilburn is of the national interest magazine in washington and a senior wada at absolute sale. How fitting into wrap things up with. Bite hogan's ninth symphony first performed in eighteen. Twenty four and remember. If you'd like to hear our earlier contrarian segment on how cameras should deal with china. If you'd like to download hostile percents of the program. Just go to abc dot net dot edu slash aren and follow the prompts to between the lines or you can download the podcast via the abc. Listen i'm tom. Switzer from abc's radio national with a bit of beethoven hope. You can tune into between the lines next week. You've been listening to an abc podcast. Discover more great. Abc podcasts live radio and exclusives on the abc listen app.

china Australia beijing tom switzer beethoven chinese embassy Jeff rabi chinese foreign ministry foreign ministry hong kong Hugh watt prime minister paul keating forty percent tom chana hardball eurasia russia paranagua jeff us
Friday 27 September

Monocle 24: Midori House

32:09 min | 1 year ago

Friday 27 September

"You're listening to molecules house. Few first broadcast on the twenty seventh of September Two Thousand Nineteen on monocle twenty four this is Monica the house view coming up today to say Mr Speaker. I've never heard Tom Bugging on my life. It has been very much so another week in Brexit also we'll look at Canada and Hong Kong where two very different leaders are trying to very different tax to deal with two very different crises we will fanfare tomorrow's Australian football league grand final with a look at the weed and dare we say wonderful world of AFL club songs awesome. Thank and we're talking about Milton Keynes it says here for some reason all that and more coming up on Monaco's house view starting now and welcome to today's edition of Monaco's House view with me Andrew Miller and we will start here in the United Kingdom though it has been one of those weeks where it's hard to know where to start with the United Kingdom on Tuesday which already feels like it happened sometime during the reign of Edward the seventh the UK Supreme Court decided I unanimously that the Prime Minister Boris Johnson had acted unlawfully advising the queen to suspend parliament parliament has since resumed and has not being in a forgiving mood refusing the just about governing conservative party even the traditional recess to enable the Tories annual conference joined with more on this upon Nichols Executive Producer Tom Edwards. What's been the highlight for you this week. Well this is it Andrew. It's been a selection of lowlights even by the standards did of the rhetoric that we've seen really since the Brexit vote and the subsequent sort of political impasse inertia. Call it what you will. It feels like this week's really reached a new low ebb. If only in terms of the way that people in particular the chamber itself in Parliament in the House Cohen's talking to one another and I think because we we should note especially for international listeners has always been usually observe of traditional off decorum in the houses of parliament idiot is all my honorable friend and so on and so forth which is not to say that things don't get a little title unruly from time to time. This is the point there. Are these very established nice season. I guess most of our very educated listeners know that most of the function of the House and indeed need most of all function of our politics is governed by convention rather than by any sort of formal constitutional doctrine. I think that point is very important under the Aegis said about it has its moments in the past and even in recent memory one can think of perhaps Tony Blair and the atmosphere in the house toxic around around say the Iraq war well that was so much toxic as genuinely impassioned well the margin between yeah I think in any example you can cite like Thatcher Administration for over a decade had a number of these outbursts. They tend to be followed by a lull. There was often a spark a row about an issue about a date a moment and the vitriol always almost always was then with a period of calm reflection action in a gradual rebuilding of some form of consensus the problem we've had over the last couple of years and indeed we're seeing it day. After day off day day off detail today the problem it reconvened this time there's no relief to it and I think if you look at the newspapers here in the UK it's reflecting the sense of frustration and depending where on on the spectrum you gather your news from you either see Telegraph for example Kohl's. MP's must not be bullied into CA tailing language. This is the Telegraph Telegraph the very pro brexit former employer of the president prime minister or if you even look the times another newspaper of record divisive language harms chance for deal Tories. He's Worn Johnson and we've had to look as so often over the last couple of years to other voices voices unexpected voices perhaps to bring a little it clarity and I know Andrew. We talked about this moment ago. The twenty year old daughter of former Labor party stalwarts evacuate bulls when public talking about her fears for her parents safety and this of course is through the prism of what happened to Joe Cox and again just for international listeners Boris Johnson cited jokes who was murdered by apnea member of parliament for Butler and spent if Manson an outspoken campaign against brexit and Johnson said the way to honor the memory coaxes to get brexit done. I think that seems the verdict most right minded people. That's very insulting to her and her family to go against so I mean it was a weird moment element for Johnson. The only two possible explanations are that he knew exactly what he was saying that he didn't know exactly what he was saying. Which I realize is possibly possibly unhelpful summation but do you know what I mean because because it is such a weird thing to have said well it's been extraordinary to see the reaction to those pronouncements announcements from John Scenarios. Obviously he's been traveling back from New York where he left a U. N. G. A short order one imagines he's not exactly well rested at the moment but even see commentators like his sister. You know they've been saying this is. This is meat and drink fan. This is what he likes. He likes to be the PM. He wants to try and play strongman tactics takes. You've got people like his advise. Dominant coming so people are suggesting driving this rhetoric for the advancement of their political program on the other hand. Lets people we'll saying listen. Everybody needs to show some restraint some respect and actually if we want to make any kind of progress here it actually doesn't matter where you are on the Brexit on the Ba- brexit spectrum. If you want to see momentum we need to start having constructor discussions depressingly. There is almost certainly plenty more where that came from next week Tom. Edwards thank you for joining us. You're listening to Monaco's house view. You're listening to Monica's house view. I'm Andrew Muller Enter Canada now where it has been a memorable couple of weeks for anyone anyone who bet heavily earlier in the year on Justin Trudeau's fancy dress preferences becoming a major election issue Canada votes on October twenty first and the upshot of this will be whether or not Justin Trudeau is returned as Prime Minister Trudeau has apologized and obviously quite rightly for his bizarre serial misadventures in black face but how forgiving is the electorate proving to be joined with more on this from Toronto by a bureau chief. Thomas Lewis Thomas. We will have by now seen some post scandal polling. Does it look like it has put a dent in him well. The needle hasn't really moved tall. Andrea poll was made at the end of last week. AAC directly at the height of this scandal as you say is the three photos and video of published by various news outlets and yes the opinion polls was really haven't budged one bit and they seem to have remained pretty much the same this week which I think too many people watching this story you know from the outside you'll be the prettiest of amazed by think that what that speaks to is two things. I think the way that Justin Trudeau handled the release of these images ages was very swift very sort of categorically like in his in his apologies which really sort of cut the story down and really cut the energy I think from the opposition parties attempts to really use this ring every drop from the scandal I think the second thing is is that he's opponents actually have also failed in on their own to really capture the imagination of large swathes of the electorate too so I think if we had for example charismatic leader the head of the Conservatives aw party on the left the MVP perhaps they would have really risen to the top in this scandal but they haven't so I think we are surprisingly only so kind of kind of where we were before the the images broke last week. If this isn't landing as an issue then obviously Justin Trudeau will be profoundly relieved saved if it is an what is still then seeming to preoccupy Canadian voters as they make their minds up what I think if you look at the campaign itself has this kind of return to the sort of normal tone of general election campaign we are having daily announcements of policy proposals by all of the major parties tease. Trudeau made the big announcement. Excuse me on the environments this week the leader of the opposition Conservatives also made lots of flagship proposals and I think you know the feels kind of quite normal in terms of the tone. I think what you know lots of Canadians have felt is that fair is maybe Abia growing some slightly shapeless sense of distrust or mistrust towards Justin Trudeau and his government for several things that they haven't done during their first term in office most notably reforming voting system here which is a big big issue for many voters. I'm also the environmental credentials so this very controversial intra-vaginal pipeline project in Western. Canada has returned lots of voters away from the Liberal Party. The other parties haven't really had this sort of million dollar kind of answer to sort of sway lots of voters so far though it seems and so he will I suspect we will get more policy announcements on pensions for example on trying to young voters into the fold over the next week or so as election day gets closer well on the subject of the environment mm than there is some chat from the Green Party that they think they could be in a position to hold the balance of power after the election. They are of course presupposing a hung parliament. Is this just pre-election. Braggadocio would does it appear actually possible. There is definitely a quite a big dose of of of that I think from the Green party who can blame them. Frankly they've had some really impressive opinion polls standings the last couple of months particularly and in in a provincial election earlier this year they almost took Paolo which would have meant the first green government in any part of Canada in Canada's history I think you know if you're looking at the way Canadian elections work. Usually people anticipate surprises but quite often things slip back to how they were that isn't I should say what happened back for years ago. When Justin Trudeau One when his opinion poll ratings were pretty low and then he came in and swept up a full majority in the House of Commons in Ottawa so who knows I think it's very worthwhile politically for the Green party to be staking back claiming in that way I think it's worth noting to that both the MVP the party on the left here and the Green Party has said that if the Conservative Party won a minority government or one won the popular vote then they didn't have a green agenda within their mandate they within join forces effectively pushed for another election so they are trying to raise the stakes. If Election Day does yield a bit of a mess I suppose electorally in terms of the makeup of the House of Commons and I think you you know any political party. Small large would be trying to do the same thing so I think it's all quite sort of you know. We're not quite sure how the message will roll on. I think if you look back to the events the week ago it's remarkable how quickly they have from scandal that looked like it was about to torpedo prime minister. Thomas Lewis Out Toronto Bureau chief. Thank you very much for joining. When you're listening to Monaco's house few you are listening to Monaco's House view in Hong Kong. The city government's Chief Executive Carrie Lam has taken the bold step all things considered of interacting directly with the citizens as Hong Kong braces aces for yet another weekend of protests last night. Lamb held a town hall meeting at which she fielded questions from one hundred and fifty people selected by lottery twenty thousand people applied for more on this joined in-studio by Monocle Research Carina Choi who is usually based in our Hong Kong Bureau but it's here in London at the moment a a it's hard to know whether appearing before the public like that Karina was a bold move or basically about the play she had left. How did it go. I mean based on what we saw. She was kind of asking for all this confrontation. didn't play out so great for her. Seventy people were selected to speak out of the one hundred fifty and most of them vented their frustration toward her administration her incompetence as a leader some even asking her to step down people were asking questions like why listen to one hundred fifty randomly selected citizens when you won't listen to over two million people who've taken to the streets three-fer question put like that yes us jackson-lee and some have even you know picked on specific incidents like Yunlong attacks when triads appeared at the subway stations and police didn't come in time I am to help people out people said how do you respond to those who've been brutally attacked and beaten up by the police what she like at because it varies enormously from politicians. Titian to politician is she good at dealing with people and at interacting with the public some some politicians have terrific aptitude for some just terrible where does where does she figure on that spectrum. We'll purely based on the past four months. We've seen that you know press conferences. At this dialogue specifically it just seemed like she had a list of responses a list of talking points and regardless of what was thrown out her. She would just say the same thing. She had no empathy not at all for the people. She didn't suggest made an make any suggestion that she would come to any sort of compromise so I mean it's telling of how just truly truly incompetent she has is as leader so if this meeting did not impress the people selected by lottery to be there all that much and it seems very much like it didn't did. Did it have a wider resonance. Did it attract a sympathetic response outside the venue well directly outside the venue. There were there. There were protesters surrounding the area and obviously before this all happened. She said you know this is a peaceful dialogue. I hope that we can come together. We can be be united but she there were riot. Police stationed outside with tear gas and rubber bullets at the ready so for her to to have that station patient there. It's just not welcoming for anyone. No one's going to feel safe. No one's going to feel like they can trust her. and unfortunately it took her four hours to get out of the venue because protesters were just so angry at the way that she handled last night well it is as we go to where either very late on Friday night the very early on Saturday morning in Hong Kong depending on on how you calibrate these things. What are you expecting this weekend in terms of protest so it's going to be the fifth anniversary bursary of the umbrella movement on Saturday tomorrow so and also as as we mentioned previously October first on Tuesday which is the seventieth anniversary of the People's Republic of China and to organize protests have been given the green light so people are allowed to take to the streets. There shouldn't be be violence. We hope that they won't there won't be violence. an speaking to some of the protesters and organizers they say that these upcoming marches are an opportunity for people people to mourn more than anything the lives of those who have been sacrificed for the past seventy years or those who you know the suicides have occurred it over the past four months as well so overall we we shouldn't expect a lot of violence particularly if the police have given the protesters the green light to go forward career choice. Thank you for joining us in just a moment. This is Monaco's house feud do stay tuned and at this point on the house view a shoutout to listeners in Melbourne and indeed Sydney who may find themselves unable to sleep for anticipation of tomorrow's Australian Football League grand final. The Australian state of Victoria is certainly unusual probably unique in observing two public holidays for sporting events one. The first Tuesday of November is Melbourne Cup Day in Fantas. The rest of the country pretty much takes the afternoon off for the race as well the other the last Friday my day in September is Grand Final Eve the day before the climactic match of the Australian football league season for which more than one hundred thousand listened people will fill the Melbourne cricket ground to watch the Premiership decided the football. They're watching is of course Australian Rules Football Australia's earliest peculiar passion the code correctly described by one Australian Prime Minister Sir Robert Menzies as the greatest winter game devised by mortal men the clubs contesting the grand final this year Richmond from the suburbs of Melbourne founded in eighteen eighty five and greater western Sydney kidney from the outer suburbs of Sydney who only joined the AFL in two thousand and twelve a creation of the league at spectacular expense and with generous assistance assistance to further the cause of Australian rules in territory traditionally dominated by rugby league so there are many subtexts to Saturday but one of the weed is that this clash between the Tigers and the giants is also a contest of the two best a fill club songs. Here's Richmond's and here is greater western. Sydney's dowd from the club's songs are a curious quirk uh of the AFL all eighteen clubs have won and they are braid and bellowed by fans in the stands and players in the dressing rooms in the event of victory. The League's older establishment teams have mostly borrowed their's from familiar tunes. Jill lungs is the toreador song from bees as common Be Collingwood's started life as has the music whole standard goodbye. Dolly Gray in Carlton's stately anthem is the minstrel Choon Lily of Laguna and and the Saints Kilda serenade historically infrequent wins with an obvious choice the the canonical versions were recorded in the early nineteen seventies by a choir of Melbourne jazz players wrangled by a record company called fable the expansion of once the Victorian Football League to become the Australian football league during the nineteen eight thousand nine thousand nine hundred ninety s saw new teams added to the competition and therefore four the necessity of new songs in several regrettable instances original works were commissioned these all absolutely sucked and indeed suck still non worse than non more eighty s abomination which fanfares the West Coast Eagles onto the field greater western Sydney's splendid blended swaggering stomp is the work of Harry Angus of Millburn rock band the Cat Empire the no great football fan angus understood what was marvelous about the original clubs club songs an outcome is that blend of match. Oh braggadocio and arch high camp into something that sounds like it might have welcomed Soviet tank divisions back from the battle of Kursk Greater Western. Sydney are a new club with few fans and little history Richmond aren't old club but one of the best supported in the country with with a glorious heritage the two thousand nine hundred nine grand final this Saturday shapes as quite a game innovation versus tradition money versus passion Sydney versus Melbourne but whoever wins will have an appropriately rousing song to sing when the final siren's gone. I am joined now on Nichols Nicole's house view for reasons which will shortly become apparent by monocle research. Nick Milanese who being from Perth may first of all have something to say in defense of West Coast Eagles terrible and stupid stone. I don't I really dinosaurs crooked versatile. I think you'd find that most. West Coast Eagles fans also I think it's terrible so why does it possess because it is objective garbage. It's it's the it's the worst one thousand nine hundred radio rock drivel. It's even got someone playing bass with the thumb which should be a crime punishable Chaba by having the digits zone off one hundred percent agree and really. I think you would find moist paypal do why we persist. I think maybe a stubbornness but like like I was saying earlier when we were chatting about these walls. We're listening to your pace. We are constantly trying to reinvent it like we. We introduced a chant last year at the start of it to try and sort of jazz it. It sounds like a high school sports day. That's what it sounds like now that they've got the chance at the start. Well my attempt to bite you into controversy. There has clearly really failed so we should probably talk about the thing you're actually here to talk about which it says right here on the running order is Milton Keynes This is possibly not some it's ever happened on any of our shows before mcquarry talking about Milton Keynes we are talking about it because I was reporting there for the festival of creative urban living living now now. I don't know if you noticed about Milton Keynes or anything about have you. Have you heard it's been made fun of. It's the punchline for I've been there once. I think I went to see. Ram At Milton Keynes bowl a billion years ago this this cows as well right concrete castle museum I believe that would be concrete. Candles run the museum. No concrete cows are now housed in a museum but that that cuts to the core of Milton Keynes is made fun of four. It's the fact that you know. There wasn't really anything there. There was a joke they couldn't actually have agricultural farm to install concrete cows to make up the numbers it was a place that people didn't WanNa be necessarily it was started in nineteen sixty seven as part of the new towns movement where the British government basically declared a whole heap in new towns around the UK to move people out of the cities to ease overcrowding in them and Milton Keynes I guess became a the showpiece newtown. I know you are skillfully avoiding the question of why you were there. was there okay so. I think so because we're going to give you a little bit of Evan designed background so it was designed in the Garden City Movement where they had lots lots of housing with light industry and agricultural all mixed together in a single development. I guess surrounded by trees. The housing itself is absolutely outstanding. You're surrounded by greenery. There's ample open space at the front and the back of the houses. The issue is visit our you're not experiencing this yours simply driving through one of its many wide roads punctuated by roundabouts and not really getting the tree. Milton Keynes experience so the city council in setting up these festival wanted to try and showcase that so they're inviting people people to come and stay with a resonant to try and get an understanding for what it's like to live in Milton Keynes and why it's so good and is that what you did did you go and stay with some Milton Keynes. I did stay with a lovely eighty year old woman named poulain she we it was a quintessentially English experience we had fish and chips for dinner cool English breakfast in the mornings and Moshi. Oh she pays the night before a cup of tea it was it was delightful so he can intrigue listeners go online and sign up for this they can so the the festival runs from the twenty sixth the September to the thirteenth of October and it's not it's not just the beds united program which is what you spend the night in the city it's also hosted by the exhibitions and events of closed off part of the main street or the Midsummer Boulevard to house an ideas forum for I guess vision in the new future for Milton Keynes because it was it was meant to be a kind of utopia by having all these built you know these buildings surrounded by greenery and and you know it was the advent of the age of the car and they really embrace that but now they've gotta trying I guess envision a new type here and that's why they want to get people in and sharing their ideas and exploring at three this festival we can read all about this in an upcoming edition of Monocle you can I have have a observation at the start of the magazine and you can read about it. They're okay with that nick. I will leave you to enjoy the West Coast Eagles final few hours as reigning Phil Premiums you are listening to Molecules House viewed and finally on the House view to Germany any specifically to it's very easternmost city girl. It's it is not a well-known destination though it probably should be it survived World War Two largely unscathed and remains things a modest masterpiece of quaint middle European architecture several film directors have noticed this including Quinn Tarantino and was Anderson but not enough others so girl. It's is offering people chance to come and live there for a month four nothing accommodation and workspace provided no strings attached enjoy now now taking a break from packing his later hose and by Monaco's Marcus Hippie Marcus. Iu in fact tempted by this well. I do love Middle European architects texture but at the same time I'm not getting very vibrant vibes from this German city. I was looking at some figures but I was able to find unseen to the German reunification in Nineteen Ninety joins us. This city's population has fallen from ninety thousand to fifty six thousand and the eighties as it to make up forty percent of the population by twenty thirty so you can understand why they want some fresh blood in understands. I also learned that just a couple of years ago. They were also trying to attract young people there by offering them free beer among other freeze for two weeks and go there for two weeks of free beer. No that didn't do the trick either. I have to say that's that's. I think only it's Finland invented. Maybe work together. I'm from Finland and there are many small towns over there trying to you know stop the decline of population. It's it's quite hard over there and what they came up in Finland was that in some places nowadays in some smaller towns they offer you a free plot of land for a nominal price voice off one euro but what's what's more interesting for some individuals is that you sometimes get a baby bonus. If you decide to relocate your new place and have children over this a for for example everyone remember this name less. DRA that's an infant in the middle of nowhere. Could you get ten thousand euros for each baby a B but presumably you to raise them there as well. Suddenly you decide on the verge of spotting loophole exactly exactly actually it's been working quite well in Seattle is so back in twenty twelve when they launched this incentive of baby bonus and ten thousand Euro awards for babies. That's twenty twelve there. There's only one baby born and that baby's name was after that they started paying this money and the next year already forcing babies were born so obviously that works but I think it's a wider issue in Finland that new stats were released to sit couple of days ago from from England of what's happening with the population. Finland is one of the very worst European countries wrist. Go through aging population cry for the highlights. We're just GONNA clip that quote so we have you seen. Finland is one of the very worst European countries. Well listen to this. He's finished. People just are not. They're not having children anymore so in just three or four years time. The situation may get so bad. They're more puppies. Being born in Finland lengthened babies so something needs to be done and and and it's quite clear that we're not there yet when robots would be looking after the after Finland's elderly the people so Finland should start to think about this issue properly as well sadly the right wing forces or Finland. Don't thing that migration would be a solution to this. It's remains to be seen the obvious one and this has been an issue with girl. It says well which like a lot of East Germany is something of a haven of anti-immigrant sentiment and Alternative Alternative Fedora Sean the anti-immigrant Party exactly that is so true and I think that's something that needs to be solved eventually after after reading the news from Finland from girl is I was thinking that it would actually make a good point for them to exchange information so you know Finland has many things they offer for free you get free education free healthcare free childcare yeah and so forth but otherwise expensive so maybe Finland should start considering that free beer as well has Finland of all places also thought of offering free mittens mm free sunlamps nauseates. I hope Finland's listening because that that would be my tip that would be my principal. Reservation would be the eleven and a half months of darkness and in freezing cold. Every otherwise is awesome. I couldn't possibly agree more Marcus Hippie. Thank you very much for joining us. That is all for today. Show Monaco's house view was produced by Daniel. You'll bake and research by will Higginbotham studio manager was David Steven's coming up at twenty hundred Marcus will be back with a brand new edition of the Menu Molecules House view. He returns at the same time on Monday. That's eighteen hundred London time which is of course thirteen hundred Toronto the rest of you can figure out the time difference yourselves. I'm Andrew Miller. Thanks very much for listening have have a great weekend mm-hmm.

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287 | Why buying a Harley derailed Bryce's property portfolio & the Ten Tips we'd tell our 20-something selves

The Property Couch

1:10:56 hr | 10 months ago

287 | Why buying a Harley derailed Bryce's property portfolio & the Ten Tips we'd tell our 20-something selves

"Welcome to the property couch each week. You get to listen to two of Australia's leading experts Rice Holloway Co host of Location Location. Location Australia box lifestyle channel. Co host of escaping the city on the ABC and partner of Impel Wealth Advisory Thin Kingsley. Chair Property Investors Council of Australia and the founder of in Paulo F- advisory named the two thousand eighteen in two thousand and nineteen property advisory firm of the year stay tuned as they renew the insiders guide to property finance honey management. Welcome back to the public podcast. Welcome back to you to Ben Alawi. Very good very good. How you've had a An Initiative that. You've kicked off this Week which I think it's pretty cool Hashtag all's property alive and Osborne said he tell us more about that. Yeah so the goal. There is really about the industry. The property industry so critical to the Australian Y of life and prosperity and the dreams that we're trying to create and so I'm always talking to a very successful broking business in Sydney on Monday and having a chat with managing director. And I said has it there. You guys well. Couple of things that you'd seen Sydney first of all. He went up to kangaroo grant so Dan to kangaroo grand in the southern Holland the amount of people that were out on the weekends who are all getting exercise and now that he says it was just all. You'd never seen it's busy. But everyone was social distancing. But that's one of guys I'll tell you. What else also on satellite or so people queuing to go and have a look at properties. I've been for inspection in a northern beaches. Area just gave me this thought. Because that's what I had hottest showing and as much as the economy city Rono Society of the United. It's going to be a bad time for property underlying demand and out and acid. I showing t brought in next week. We'll release the result of and I'm jumping ahead a little bit here. But it comes back to these initiatives so I just thought was now that we're coming out of these restrictions. This lockdown period are then started doing ring around on spike to some of the president's all the presidents of the Rei the real estate institute around the country are ranked home panels gripe friend of the catch and an unbelievable leader in our property industry. Tom Got Behind it so getting all of the people behind it so John. Maguire free listening if anyone else's add all the big industry people when you're doing the Europeans for inspection this weekend and everyone's differently practicing social distancing but I want you to take a and I want you to put the Hashtag on your instances on your twitter's it's just basically all's property alive and I want to show what's happening on the ground because that's the challenge isn't it always a Brennan was probably live but yeah but the thing is that what you're wanting to do is to show a bit of cull face action. I can confirm within our team. Ben Yes that's of set now probably three or four weeks in Iraq The fact that the competition so a guy just ramming highpoint for the new. People who've been listening to podcasts. Not The people who've been around for two tuners sixty seven episodes what we're up two hundred ninety seven episodes but the the people who had just new to US been. Yep is we keep on talking about Commentators is making discussions about property as s it. Kloss versus having subcategories property around the country. So the subcategory that Wearin Is the investment grade sub sub category? Yep and the category that In for a lot of places where his Arkhipova demand is another sub category. So those you will find photos been of what you're talking about. In those particular subcategories without will continue to have lines and you will also be able to do the opposite. Been you be able to find Investment Stock and non on demand or areas that have got employment that of badly affecting a particular subject or amok grow verb Those you will not see photos of people queuing out the saw. So it's about being discerning the bad side. The property market has reopened. And you'll be surprised. How many buys are actually out there and so the sellers? Once they know that the boys they will then list their properties. And the IT. We'll get back to a level of normality and that level of malady will instill confidence and as we know we talked about. And all those previous episodes Ross. The importance of the wealth effect so property plays a critical role. And I'll be talking to you more about that in terms of what's happening or what's making probably news segment lighter in show. It's really important to understand that. Property underpins the strain hockey. It underpins psychology the economy. All those things or if we can get a positive message at the of what's happening in field we'll potentially say more. Sellers LISTING THEIR PROPERTY OFF. And then the property markets alive again been pay warranted. Who's been a? He's a friend of the cat. She's been on podcast costs. He's a blog. He quoted a framework which I thought was really interesting fondly leaks and essentially if if we step back always side that capital garth these would demand exceeds supply and property prices falling is logically supply exceeds tomorrow roadside so very simple equation now that framework that he had on the blog to see the supply drivers where construction and properties on the Micron so the construction measured by new completions approval. Dan and a Dan so the new saw it is actually is is shrinking. It's long then. Established Marcus appropriate on the Maga which is measured by auctions and private tiles. Will there's been a significant cat In listings been significant significant listings. Right so therefore the supply and the market is limited And then on the demand saw it said it comes in with racing's population growth household saws the ability to buy so the hassle as is shrinking. Ben It's not getting bigger at shrinking so therefore putting more demand on properties but the ability to ball has subcategories measurable interest rates. Okay never before saying lows hassled income well for some people There's some people in the unemployment for them job. Saiki subsidies go underpinning their bank credit policies. Well Abbas drop the handbrake a little bit said that some and then the relative returns of property so when you look at it through the Lens of that Framework Shore. The ability to buy around household income is affected. Or because there's all that stimulus cash that's opinion. It's it just it just it. I mean we must have started to get a little bit immune to someone talking about forty percent drops been because it's been said on a number of tigers haven't proven to be true not going to happen for us but sub mark markets is what we're talking about so you'll Hashtag a very Great campaign all Hashtag does property alive. So what we want to do it to a community fewer out at an auction. You're out at a private at I. You listen to this and you'll go people whiting out in the front in the groups obtain guy through and you've got three groups. I Mean Land. Pilkington told me about several probably on the weekend that I seventy seven groups of people going through those properties in the hill streaks off Sydney. You can't tell me that they're all the neighbors who are having a sticky bake one's GonNa long enough input into genuine buyers and I it is. We've said it before and we're very competent. It's and again. We are not going to see the corrections that are being predicted and we will be talking more about this in the weeks to come with people saying Ob the one thing you guys want to talk about is all of these retirement poses and repayment when naive and while they're not GonNa win but I'll be talking to you more about that next week. Shung locking loops as finance. Got All right so we want people to get involved. If you're a real estate agent clearly yes but if you're and you're sending in a lawn habits I can put Hashtag is property law and tag us We'll have a look on to make this about the property catch now industries. It's so we didn't have a look if you want to discuss a look that Hashtag So That's good initiative on thank. You just want to remind folks we. We're launching at cost. Ben. We're doing it nice specific period of Tom. Because you want to be able to support the students that come on Yes I talked about being the first of June For technical reasons I Jane Ben just the same stuff though my boy with but it'll be June but so I just want to let people know that he's coming. I put a shout up into say if anyone wants to give us a review. So this one from Kim shots Amazing Wealth of knowledge is academy. This podcast in amazing tool for anyone with an interest in the property industry extremely and sought and filled with plenty of personality. Keep you intrigued with the concept of audit. I've known bought both books. I've read them. Toss bent on. Wow differently with the Tom to listen from the start to get a great wealth of knowledge. Haji shift the ability to make the best decisions for your probably before. I think to the team the probably catch all this machine mentioned the Tame Ben was there was a tastes more than just you at the probably cast name as well and I'm extremely appreciative of your passion to share this knowledge so then came to us. You've read that book to us. We're going to let you get access to the course I will give you free access. And was it a four hour three against five and all I wanNA was shooting anything on. Been ONE HUNDRED REVIEWS. That are not five stars okay. The six sixteen hundred reviews that if fought stop and there's one hundred four three two one and the I think the to got to me. Parliament is have the chosen. The ones I think is random at forty been. So we've got some work we do. plays everyone so if someone wants to give a tour three review attention US review. We just won't honesty so that we got. And the second one is jared jared Hennequin been Talking Vistas I stumbled across this podcast last year and followed Bras and Ben's recommendation to listen to every episode right from the beginning of the reason. I wanted to hold on this because I haven't shed that story. Yeah but it's really critical so anyone who's come across the catch It's really important that you circle back and start from the beginning because this is a progression. This is a building opponents almost like a automobile university or Jogging University or Jim University. Wherever you listen to it We're trying to build lies so that you understand the frameworks so that you come up to speed on the frameworks to Tom. Out Very Thomas Fundamentals. Right you're going to go are jared goes on to say this. Podcast provided me the strong foundation to build a well diversified investment before now have not been so good temper said to pose and plan to buy my first property the next three months the catch feel changing Voss jared. You'll very welcome you reach out to us and we'll give you access to the course as well so we're super excited about suffice. Keep that anyone's interested in improving their education and Self pacing. They're learning been. There's over twelve hours worth of teachings there we've lots of really cool bonuses enough your Stay tuned last. One Minute before we kick into today's PODCAST PICO survey. Yes I think you've got a really good response to. We've had a terrific sponsor so this is the property investment professionals of Australia. Pizza and pick up the property. Investors cancel straight so to peak bodies one for probably investors and the other one full the street professional advisors out. The what we've done is we've put the average time it's taking for people to fill the survey in two minutes and thirty seven seconds. So that's how quick the survey to filling. We've had over Thirteen Hundred Responses Sofa and the responses very insightful. Brosseau just shows you that I'm surprised. By the percentage of people who think now is an excellent time to buy property. It surprised me but that'll be announced next week shower so it does finish show. It basically closes out on Sunday but fog. Pm So please. Chance to the show notes complete that closing at shortly so five in Perth been four PM on. Yep Yep that's right Yeah that'll do five PM Sunday. No closing it out it's five. Pm On is on the wick. So we'll do if you're a member of you downloaded any of that stuff in your community to a reminder as well we'll email that out but if you're not a member of community they can get onto the shine arts click on the link and have for yourself because it really. We're asking important questions about. Is it a good time? Have you been affected by Covid? From Union component view and then also have you managed in regards to tenants and landlords in impacted that they the sort of three main themes in that and then. We're working at territory. You're in and what sort of Income Ryan you're in but a guy in it's anonymous because we don't offer any email addresses. There's no way in which we can find out who you are. You can just basically filling and we will we. We've got Lond up a big media release going out to all the obviously meteorite. Let's and so forth to share that knowledge because it is surprising in the level of of noise and Ao is that have been going on for the affected but the percentage of people who assigned the headline affected is relatively low in terms of what's going on so that's that's also interesting but it's not to like get the done so we can get as many as the one that will now they got today been. We're going to talk about the top ten tips. We tell at twenty something year old sales just before we purchased yourself. I property and you're twenty. Something was twenty three yes twenty. Something was twenty four but before we get to that Which is going to be exciting. What's today today's Hey who jumps into? The void owes no explanation to those. Who Stand and watch been Jean Luc out now. The reason I thought that was interesting. Because those questioned why we will buying at the heart of the anxiety A national thinking. Oh Jesus pro. The probably was a bit of an opportunity that because there was night competition who the agents were faithful. The vendors were faithful but as the ball when found themselves in a in a very rare opportunity to boy and asset investment grade at no competition in hot and fierce died and and sort of looking back. She was a pretty good decision. And then but those who was sitting on the sidelines before thinking Geez. I wish I wish I had the opportunity to do that. Now that I know what I know. I'm a poor share. Try to Prosper de by tens of thousands of dollars worth of shares at the end of March off off off when the panic and crazy will never be here forever. I deny that this was. I only going to be a short and I gave it. So it's very. He's but that that's probably being the best share action. Obey the done in that town. I'm Tom we'll tell of course but I jumped into the void even my stockbroker win. You see you serious. And I went absolutely and he was like wow so even even a share in my stockbroker has been in the share market for over twenty five maybe thirty years and haven. He was having a panic because all he was doing was basically putting in sell orders and he gets a strange boy order for me. And I'm a shocking chair investor. Mike Mistake on a you know I'm not very good at it or very good ben so guy so the mindset. I hate you jumped into. The void owes no explanation to those and and watch or I've been let's kick this off. We're going to start off with your number one. Ben If you we really want we put you back in the. What was flux capacitor? What was the Cao the Tim Monte? Oh yeah the DC was a DC oriented or something jumped into that back. Then we're about to have a chat with you the twenty twenty three year old self. Then what was the first thing you would say to yourself? Now as you're about to bother that first so this is being brought to. This is when I was in the twos and Gyn and I did the wrong thing and Braga sat down with my Braga and say look. I want to buy this property in Sydney the tone and I could deposit. That was the sick and property was bong and I wanted to stay understand. This one was going to be for investment purposes. But we're GONNA leave in it for a little while rob so I I sat down with him and I said Oh. He's the best deal. These are bells and whistles in the features does have an offset so it was a professional package that the particular broker was telling me about but under night and they tell me about the benefit of actually parking money in the off site as opposed to putting it in the Rachel so fast forward several years lighter and made a a significant dent in paying off that property because the other property that ironed the one in Bunder was kicking costly tendency in that property as well. So I'm thinking of what a great job we've done here in terms of paying tens of thousands of dollars often these long and then I'll come down and see my academy Melvin. And he goes. What are you doing? What do you mean he goes will? This is going to be an investment property. Why are you paying the Damn And I said well because Dan. And then you release the equity out of it and yet an offset account allows you to keep that money to the solid. And then just popping money on the Knicks Steiner occupied property. You're GONNA going. And then the interest is deductible. I'm lock and you could potentially pollute the line to music for investment purposes correct so structuring to have an offset one. And we've talked about that. So this was one of the original foundations of money smarts in terms of we love enough cities. It's available in Australia. Not Too many other countries have it. Actually you can count them on one hand in terms of who adopted that type of product. 'cause IT STAR. Damn good for the borough not necessarily for the Linda so that was just that if I had my time. I've Reagan as you signed bras are would-be signing you. Park your money. In an offset account as you're accumulating wealth if you nodding that big rocking job property that that final dream Iranian you want on my shoulder that deductible easier. That's lowest point possible not necessarily having that non-deductible. Sorry that day on on a deductible property because down so we've got this great property in Sydney which is speeding off. Beautiful Cash Log. We're piling texts on it. But if we had have structured ourselves correctly then we could've been invaded position against so that was listened. Want so bras. What's one for you The first thing I would sight to my twenty four year old self back nine hundred. Nineteen on the property He's I would actually say that I needed to develop an understanding of the songs behind property. Not just a blanket assumption that every property doubles every seven to ten years because always very of of documented story Iran Jan. someone's binge. She The spot for me. And so what what? I got what I got seduced. Boy Concept got seduced baugh theory and the theory was to ball investment properties The tenant and the taxman pie much if notable fuel bills and either Tom that will grow in value can have set the will sell and reap the benefits so August juice. That been I'd really Grew up in Perth or lived in suburbia eleven kilometers south of earth Wasn't really involved. You know as you grow up. Markets grow up in mill. Your kids go with the villages. My sister always comes over to moments because this love have this village every five minutes from where you can block was just this total different world of real estate. I mean compared to some of the more affluent suburbs in the in the western suburbs. The the Golden Triangle been had villages. And we were. We were middle class families. We didn't spend a Lotta Tom. This just figured that I just needed to buy real estate like you just needed to put your name on a toddler that was it. That was the guy and And then through some magic of Osmosis the textbooks said just because I've bought the property therefore in seven to ten years it'll double like it says it in the book therefore reality and what. I've obviously now. I have a twenty plus years of doing this. I understand that notable properties of the at the been some will perform better than others some GOP values. I'm going down in value. All is things that are now now now in terms of the science behind property. I just didn't have any concept of it. My first introduction to property was off the plane My craft through project marketers all those sorts of things so it was about the theory not the songs behind property. So I would say to myself might pull my buddy. It's not just about a theory. Has the practical application so you need to go and dig a little deeper and understanding. What are the process drivers that create An excess of demand over supply so that increases have been all that is the first the hall Woodside. Everyone will listen listeners. If that's you do what's the second one for? You might also again if I'm in my twenties and I'm thinking about what I know now what I knew then and this is a lot if you ask a lot of people. Who've completed a portfolio of properties. I will tell you what's the biggest thing you would have done differently? I would've said I would've gone with more properties. I don't WanNa go on an area because now what are so. There's a lot of confidence that gets built. And so you sort of the second. One familiar is about the one that got away. There's probably a my twenty s two or three properties that I did some really good diligence on in locations. That these things really really well but for whatever reason I talk myself of them and I didn't go there at that time. So that's probably more sow around confidence and understanding what I'll do now. Because he had one or two properties in the portfolio I would be significantly better off in terms of that comes back to also voss from an accountant who said sell the Bunder property because we can get a property in in Sydney. That was the worst decision. That's a half a million dollar. Plus stike that automating my portfolio in terms of not keeping that holding onto that property because it would have continued to grow and would have been another little cash cow in the portfolio now so so it is about understanding that when when the numbers do stack up. And when you're in a position to invest our should've I wasn't educated enough on on got bad texted voss more should never listen to invest in property with through techs should have basically gone to the fundamentals which is bar when you can afford to buy and hold for that longer time because the asset would have stacked up beautifully. Because I knew what I needed to buy and I learned the craft dolls buying close to the city because the land values in those areas appreciated Beta than anywhere else. So that for me was just one of those ones where I know now on what I say to people. He's invest when you can afford to invest in the short and long term. Talk about it all the time. And don't try and think he can be perfect at picking the market and all but it might go down a little bit more amok out just none I just remember you plying along guy in. He taught him the market based on supply and demand in the sub-markets. But don't try and think that you can pick the absolute bottom lock in the market. It's just not possible. And if you did it's lock. It is not necessarily expertise because it's not a question of shoot I bought. Property is it should in any moment in Tom. If the question is should have proper think it's not bad it's way show about property because there's always someway nine. Tommy. Tommy so broad swath sure second tape or I'm on next one is what I would side myself been is I paid one hundred and nine hundred nine thousand nine hundred and forty dollars for my. I probably been forty dollars. That's interesting yeah well later. I learned that they had Project is commission and I will owning the nine. Hundred and forty dollars was the was much though Twelve thousand nine hundred four hour so they didn't even ran it up so so you bought your property and the medium price in Perth at the Tom Bin so I bought a three bedroom. Apartment Admittedly had earth views city abuse. Side myself a little bit on the cons. It was one hundred investments still so one hundred thousand nine hundred forty bucks which was a law of money back then because the median price for house hundred and fifty thousand who hundred fifty thousand. So so one thing is punishable house button but Bigger than that is. I would have bought off the east coast bigger population centers. At the time. There was a lot of people going. The last Piston Lead Victoria and the lots out though hitting up to Queensland Post people want to. I'd like to stand here and say oh. I wish I had a boarding house in mill senior. But I think had that Small town mentality. I think I probably would have bought in Brisbane but if I could have said it to an hour to set by in Melbourne kidney but I think I would have gravitated towards guy into Brisbane Because back then everything was over. Seven percent rental yield would've been cachefly positive been and had a better return so my second one was to become a listen. Vesta and on the East Coast first because I have In more experienced a started out Investing in the light nineties started at helping people by the light on teas and so what I observed is I saw plenty of people accumulate three properties four properties six properties. One of my friends over this go ten plus properties in the market for the last decade. Been it hasn't been coined to them. There's a there was a period of time when it actually was at the beginning in the early twos but unfortunately admit that that part of the cycle And they have four out of the May have been so they needed the last ten years to do some of the heavy lifting so would have been tell myself to become a bogus investment earlier and boy on the East Coast or ideally in the big ones. But I think it would have been Brisbane at the tone. Yeah look interesting. I bought the hats across the from mom and Dad and the court that are groping so I was victim of sign sort of on educated mentality when that first one. So so it's it's very common because I want to be an edible on the fifteen spam early podcast. We always talk about the ten fifteen commodities but things have changed in Melwood since we kicked this off for years ago so we now boy at sort of the ten fifteen kilometers radius for clients. But what I will sites. Well listen is if you can't afford to buy the ten to fifteen Colorado writes in the two CDs you'll get an APP performers just because of scarcity and the fact that when you have a look at the reference to it I generally do much better in terms of a compound growth because I saw this have period people but some quite often some people come and say will in the Arnie on the ten to fifteen colona rice. Well that's because you could buy a single fronted period time in the inner west of Melvin Band five years ago for hundred fifty thousand dollars when she can't even get close to now so as the the city becomes denser and more populated. You clearly go to make sure that you buy In an affordability Cross but also have a look if you've got further out is there to get into the the main employment centers does it still have the lost. Also economic activity human interests human behind. You still apply but back then bending in the ninety s would have been on the ten to fifteen called writes it would have been hess. I'm watching talking about. Is that demand and supply story and affordability story where there's lots of Domon and that's why we have pushed out into land content greater than that ten or fifteen kilometer radius because sign with that one in Flemington that we was two thousand and seven for three hundred ninety five thousand for two bit a single front. So that's that's obviously now. Pushing a million dollars will be on these so from that point of view we're still trying to find those markets where the the lost all drivers of the the expiration. The village atmosphere is the human interest stories. So that's what we're also trying to replicate and also for out for the clients that we're working with hoped. I'm walking with one point five correct. Walking with one point five we are Riyan towards getting that scarcity of lane closer in. Because you're not going to say properties in two thousand five kilometers from any major metropolitan and knowledge saint good to two million dollars if the properties. Clark's serene on at seven right. You know so so. That's also the reality. I mean they will have a tipping point in terms of how much can grow and that's the ripple effect that we've talked about before so that's all sykora important or might say first one was an offset of Canton. The second one was talking about The one go away so the third one is probably more than we're not talk very much about the share market. He because we're not experts in that thing but what I what I do want to listen that I've learned from this is when I do pick stocks directly myself on crap at it and then if I was to be severe myself it's because I have back in the take boo. I bought some shade in a media company which was flying the contract to do the Sydney Olympics. Doodle like this shape process got went on but what I recognized. Top Enron choice. Millwall's Kit balling. Because I tried to dollar cost average. It all run down until the went broke list. The average at the end was zero from my point of view. The due-diligence that I do in terms of buying properties versus the Judea login. Id in terms of spending ten thousand twenty thousand. They on Shays wasn't reliable in those early. Die So I've seen reverted to professional Stockbroker and someone who does that work and obviously we go to financial planning business and we bought direct shades for our client so with that stockbroker and financial adviser. They do the Stop. Picking do the analysis on the company's auto and have the time to do that so I've learned from that to not necessarily just bicycling tyke Ma judgment when I haven't done the work. I now outsourced or professional in terms of doing that. So probably the same way in which people outsource to us In regards to play yet more experience in the field. Can they basically do it? Twenty four seven. It's a livelihood did Ham. I ever going to compete with that. Basically why those people outsource to professionals and I'm exactly the sign that brokers done the proper analysis on that company because remember Don Bosh is on buying a company if I'm if I'm directly and I need to understand the business that companies in how well it's managed what's the debt levels. What's their strategy for growth? All of those things and that will take an enormous amount of time that have so I answer to that but took a to work that out because I originally you know my work experience. I worked for a stockbroking company. Back in the days when there was joking and always running chicks around all around Melbourne on trains and Scifo's to the Reserve Bank and pine this before everything was before Google before before the Internet Roy. All of the transactions would manually chicks will being transferred everywhere so it was a great work experience period for me and I always thought it'd be share markets all or property certainly wealth creation was a thing for me So yeah took me a deck. I work out that I'm not very good at it so now I rely on research and and this skill sets to basically do my share investing very good. So that's what? How do you approach the share market with the same diligence as you do the property market and and then realize that NATO outsource good at if I had more time hundreds and hundreds of companies? Not these guys doing that. Research everyday the Roger. Montgomery's this world all of these professional people who have a theory and an approach just like we do and they replicate that. I understand value in bit all those things in terms of how they're investing wanting to on not going to know that I'm never gonNa be bitter at then the net. So why would I even try to attempt it than to outsource to those professionals? Very good your next Next one is our break I would tell my twenty four year old self that we need to do some work on money beliefs. So I'd break and rebuild my money beliefs to the some Sustained success so basically what I mean. By that is we've had Julianne Canes on Apple Touchy Lives in Queenstown Base Already subscribe to the framework that she has boot and put some work around which is essentially that If you for podcast audience. It's not easy to try and try but we'll give it a guy if you imagine a tree roots in the Grand. Been The roots Symbolic of your money beliefs. The soil is symbolic of a external influences. You have the people that you hang out with. The trunk is your internal influences and quite giant about re running. You know some stories in my head and then the branches and the leaves that's the knowledge and action and so her theory is very simply that most people just walked the branches and leaves Raw. Get the knowledge and the action. Don't do any work on the roots of the DRE. Which obviously Mike. The difference. Absolutely sake you sample. Because I riled had some early success more property portfolio day route. I'll tell you why a move from Perth to initially Brisbane but then off to the Gulf coast When I was twenty seven back in two thousand and two that's dangerous place for twenty seven year old guy yes With the most the case with the my so basically I had no A new one on the East Coast and new business people Through business relationships. I didn't have any Social Networks and bicycle. I always just over there Chosing Property success and what happened is is did have some success and I this abort abort a highly been. It's about a brand new BMW. Ben An Rented I a Penthouse in how lassie likes don't live in Tulsa arguably still but the Tulsa toys and I thought what would a big wheel I'm on and So I was run around with no accountability parents and everyone coming here and here. I am having a little bit of success which I think was dangerous. Says all look back but the thing is. I missed a window of time because if you think about that period of Tom. There was so much opportunity. The pilot that all is making on the brand new BMW would have been better hawked blowing another investment. The Holly Show. It was a bit of fun. But that was a deposit on genuinely deposits on more property. Yes and all and I thought that would be fun to do some of these things as a twenty seven year. Old Unaccountable on the Galkayo. Oh I would always sites in my twenty four year old self. Let's do some work now and making sure that your money beliefs Set you up for success rather than if you know easy. Come easy go. A couple of things That will probably needed to work on. So I think it's important. Thank you for sharing processing showing some vulnerabilities in terms of what he did. It didn't bring you that happiness. You looking five minutes but not Stein. Although so that's number one for you is developing understanding around the science behind property number two was boldly investing and number three was about building the better money believed and that success doesn't necessarily mean material things. Why Mrs to a lot of people is money. Beliefs should be something that you work on unless you born into a family with a normal was abundance because the normal ben was around scarcity. I ever on because we haven't seen sales we plant. Yup someone will implement the plan and then we say them derailing we scratch your head and prior to knowing what the derive is you got wha- fort why don't you just keep falling the plant now? You know that there's some stuff going on mentally saw logically that we instead of going down the hallway early exit and then all of a sudden you're in all sorts of true and and that's why habits and behind us and all the stuff that we talk about. Mindset is critical to sustain success. GotTa get that sustained success there. We go. So yeah. That's that's really important. Okay what you number four number four for me a lot more planning so you early on and always always probably lucky enough to work out that that did that because always naturally skeptical. So I didn't. I didn't get hooping all the seminars and all the spruce talks and all that never signed up to anything. I was just naturally skeptical enough to sort of be careful so I never never you know. I haven't really bought a bad acid or done anything in that respect. Don't get me wrong done. Some you know Marsha market stuff is pretty ordinary in the early days. So I'm now I'm now genius But in terms of what I did work out that if I planned bid and that took me Rodham until in my early thirties when I started deploying in terms of what I needed to do so I had this underlying need to to knowledge insight and and to make the invisible visible and that's basically led me to and then once I got that plan in place. Well basically unstoppable really confident in terms of the decisions that we my but when you're young and your young relationship and you've you bring an asset or properties to that relationship and you're trying to work out whether this is your life partner and things and then you're thinking about kids and modal that means because what we have seen what I was saying others do. He's they've over committed and then not work. That what they goes priorities. And they'd be growths in the Jarrah and I've seen them having to unwind that so off differently could have done more planning work earlier on and sit those goals up but when you really young quite clear on what. Somebody's so it still changes. It's never going to be sit in concrete but but I felt like a little bit more planning with the main toll and someone who I could say his wall and seeing them all would have been put me in better state than what I did. A of of never been fortunate whether it had had to reverse out of almost bordering off the plan apartment in Sydney before a board in Alexandria Puerto One thousand dollar deposit down which was refundable and then. I kind my senses the next day but I was in that environment. You know adults were going up on the screen. All of those types of things are happening but I went. What am I doing? Get back to my planning on those types of things and now obviously the planning work is critical in my view in terms of your in this business. You WanNA basically set up a loft time plane. And that's obviously what went on. We'll entry more twenty third year being involved in this game. Ben Mobs of those without plan. A susceptible to the breeze that blows across them and the plan is essentially the rudder and with that that Rogerio getting blind whichever direction the breezes guiding seeing people stop something stopped next best thing and I'm talking a little bit from experience he been because that's that's we are the antithesis of H. L. Now as we come into our forties wearing limit but Early dies you a steady? You might Pragmatic decisions you. You didn't get carried away with the bullying. Always the opposite always doing silly things on the Gulf coast With that. Oh because I wholeheartedly agree that the planning is something that is critical. What is the end and work backwards to work at? What is how you achieve that? Rodman just wondering generality that some maybe these smiley mature. I'll talk to you about shortly on my next one but I totally agree. That planning is to become what you and you know. That's where so that that statement which I angered to and then the statement which are keep reminding myself knowledge is empowering but I don't act on because you heard one of my mistakes before. Let some opportunity scar. Because I didn't act on them because I didn't have the confidence around that know. My money stories are coming from a house where money was controlled. It was it was controlled the household at control the decision making control of the level of happiness and so I had to do a lot of work around money manage a mindset money and getting in control of money and feeling like a nail on everything combat into of saying that model then getting into control. What was the messy middle or the messy middle is just holding firm so you would have moments of anxiety around not wanting to spend because you know th the impact of that. So that's what I did learn. You know saw that was a successful pathway. And there's a lot of people who who basically go without a lot in terms of you know very minimalistic leading and no date and all of that type thing so once. I worked out when we talked about this before. But cash on cash return and the power of leverage is author elements. That gotta get lock auto need to white until I'm seventy to see the fruits of my life. Even delayed gratification is important. I also wanted to also make that. I could do the sensibly as long as I could be in control the money and then hates money smarts and developing a money system and all talk things through working with Michael and those types of people so these are all just things that that I just thought of their combination of research in sought Putting theories into practice learning experiments experience and meeting amazing people lock yourself and like Michael Pope and all and bringing all that together and building a framework that that I just follow up and it's and it sort of just a process now not an event and we just we just works for that process and we follow the plane Yeah it's interesting because one of the things that As you said that I was thinking around connecting couple of extra adults in my head but We probably identifies about La family. My Dad worked six days away but not only that some of the early messages. All got was You know I saved up for a pair of Jordan Jordan fours that cost two hundred and four bucks Ben which is still expensive today but back then was an investment. Been but Tom Remember remember. You kept them. I remember my dad said you have to get them Bhagat than because because you need to grow into them and I remember also wanted to get the added s ramps but I ended up getting the campus and because I was shoes at the but again I had to get them to to be so flopping around look clan in. They shoes in the. Tom Actually fit them. That worn out onto the next one. We never wore out. We always kept best dressed for Sunday's but when Sunday never camera so I think that created a belief in me that went on. Get the success for on to bust the spend and I've and so interesting that circle back and some of those dead was born in one thousand thirty nine. The depression lists of things and so austerity was big for him but It was interesting to see. How do I have boost out of that was to spend inside look off made it and all those sorts of things and had done it a little bit early so interesting that you say that Planning is a good thing. My fourth one is I would remind myself that successful pass because I wanted to be a passive property investors. Yep At times all wanted to be active and that's fallen bit Self that successful Passi property investing should be boring. And what I mean by. That is if you want. Excitement Guy Bungee jumping because really blind visit property. Get attendant ten hours a year to manage it lock. It's it's not going to give you the thrills but what are observed in mind self is all. I wanted the adrenaline. I wanted the fan. I wanted I wanted. I wanted to make things happen all the time so we have. I've talked about this before so I go to too much but we did. I probably development on the Gulf coast. It was To House Assad by Saudi. We wanted to turn twenty one apartments or member Chapelle cool. He's dead live next door and there was a development on one side of him. We were by the two houses trying to negotiate with him. It was interesting. Approach the Tom. Thinking if you need money for legal fees. We're happy to buy your house. I mean talk about Aggressive Roy but he. He didn't sell to US. So you would have had to unit developments and then we went through the process iday months of doing development and And then we had to. We had a. We bought it on option band. And we couldn't get the finance to work because the The Cocoa City Council Chinatown plan at the time. So there's a whole bunch of stuff that goes around that but chasing the adrenaline and clearly if you pull off this into a pretty good. There was that Dan In coffs harbour. There was a straight that we built five houses in been to one sawed threw on the hostile So through that sort of Spic building as and then. When I when I do the sums didn't make that much money when sold in 'cause you give too much wider to the government you gotta get too much of the selling and cost me fabulous money getting in and we had five of these things old guy wants and then there was you know there wasn't any scarcity involves so whoa whoa in reflection guy and it's like well you getting absorbed by all these other things on shore if I'm sitting on a stage Ben and I'm sitting there on a rocking chair and Iraq will die Pretty much on doing something. All Die Roy. But if you measure where I've been rocking chair hasn't gone anywhere has moved Ford. One oil and essentially there was a bit of that going on so I would remind myself that successful passive property investing should be boring and all it should do some bungee jumping from. I think Mike a really good point. They brought something otherwise as much as property became my passion and my weekends were filled with hundreds of inspections and auctions and all that and the accumulation of knowledge that I'd do whatever time Because I just wanted to be a subject matter expert in this particular area that always doing because always conservative by nine so I needed that confidence to basically turn the wheel in terms of that. But we're not telling the wheel then I'll just well. I'm not here to renovate and profit so one of the big things for For those people when you are looking to become an investor and you're thinking about that is are you going to be a really active investor? Hanes on reviewing your portfolio every three months. And and you're looking at wising which can add value or you just kind to be a passive investor. Where it's it's it's exactly that it's basically off got my lawf- Bahia a now. I've got a property manager looking after the property. I'm just going to let time do its thing and I'm going to Montana tabby in terms of making sure that the property is in good liberal order but really I just want to get on with my life and you work at which can't be. WanNa be because. There's no doubt that you can make money renovating you can make money out of Commercial. You can make money out of All different strategies sub divisional laptops up. And you can really accelerate that but once I had my playing like I just need four four really good properties. We'll just go to work my Wi- to allow the income Zine and when the equities they've got enough can execute and then go forward with that so I think it's a really really good point following appoint fawn all of my top five types of what I would tell myself in my twenty something years so I wouldn't make the mistakes that I made. During that time is a greatest returns. Bros who the very very greatest returns and and rewards come from delayed or turns that is basically saying that I am proof of that in terms of delayed. Gratification is a good Mike. Giants clear will tell us Kola Nema might now the cash selling Thomas rip up and he says the greatest returns. The delight returns the things that you put effort into. And then you just let them grow and I think that comes down to the degrees that we embark on over three year period. The sports programs that we embark on to win premierships that that instant gratification. Those instant hall lots those instant sugar hits that people are Often Cape chasing those and that's addiction and drugs and then you will not find your y. Hong you will not understand that those things come over Tom so yet every now and then you pinch yourself and being how fortunate I am or won the lottery in terms of being born in this country Australia is an amazing place. Aleve incredibly safe fairly reasonable governance raise just on little little That's the politics. No politics something would be even better than when we? But that's the police's democracy but coming back to the point is that are over time that five year tenure that they knew that twenty out coming up to twenty-five he's doing this. I can look back on the portfolio of bill and I consider myself the financial freedom. You know that that that hasn't really required great risk Just Solid Execution Stein. The course and I'm being rewarded for that for that for that effectively. That the seeds that I planted when the first property aboard at twenty three the next property at twenty seven the next property thirty one etc etc etc and all. I am testimony of that and now I'm able to it forward through this podcast reworking with sharing with that community that that we are both evidence all of the fact that even if you can you can be rudderless as you were exempt but your now your courses really clearly defined for your road and that's very clearly defined view very clearly defined from me and we are now teaching others that they don't have to have that time challenge the only give to the folks through a few mistakes along the way because I am the one that's made mistakes along the way but of course corrected and it's very clear. What is your number one top five? Well I don't think this'll be surprised by a couple of stories. I've told this than money been autopsied. Durand a lot a lot. We talked about it in the podcasting is two weeks ago. How many places we've been Gypsies? Well it it does come at a cost of chasing money at the expense of other things. Madero Grandmother She was ninety two. She passed away. This pandemic this So it was eighteen. Years didn't get to spend with her Moi cousins growing up. So there's some of those things that money just can't default on all sorts of things say I don't have any regrets moving to the east coast. They'll really love being here. My wife over here and For for what we do. I think there's more opportunity here But but there is mole outside. There's more than money and make decisions based on happiness rather than money and probably the only upside paid of all the gypsy seeing that comes around Milwaukee under you should share war stories about what it is like chasing ambition or I guess probably a television opportunities largely because of the fact that I well traveled. Yeah and source these countryside. Well there a lived experience and you now have the ability in the legacy to pass on that knowledge in terms of you know people often reach out to us through channels and ask for a little tip here or there of what are these. I'm very happy to share that. Ron And we've obviously got these Community that we can share that through and all of the things that we're doing so all I think you'll stories one of Dr Not Follow Your Dreams but also understand the motivations of while you following those dreams is a is a really very powerful point number one tip in is don't do any Maija loss events in your first year of marriage on line. Have A kid I. I got married in Fiji. Four days later we drove from Melbourne to Brisbane for me to start a new geek. So I you marriage may starting a new gig in Brisbane while wife not knowing many people because we lived in the Gulf coast for many people in Brisbane. So there's just old as my trying to be the first year of marriage. Any of you listening there has. He's going to get me your to get married decide. Do anything well in Mali. Experience do two things or was everything dropped. Don't do anything my age planned to become. So is the top five things we would tell each other twenties effectively. That's sort of what we were trying to do with shy so they want help a few bucks those a lot. How do I decide? Well his mistakes. We've made some observations of course corrections we would have done. Had We done it in? You might be out of relate to one two or in some cases you might relate to team model effect tonight. Ben Is As you know I Cook Breakfast with the kids. Most Mornings Moghal is just to get As much food as like Canada bodies. That's not sugar and and Ben Is all I make scrambled eggs and And I'll put them on the test. But what I do account the of this Dandruff not being takes me about I mean. That's but Cut The crusts off the types up with the scrambler Tyson. Then I caught it into six squares. Ben and then auditioned to them onto their plight. Six little little little snacks but what they do is I come up and I pick him up. Lock little snacks and before now. They've knocked down the eggs and the down the hatch and without sort of whereas of the solids. Whoa WHOA yeah. We'LL SAM in particular my youngest. Can we reach an repay on that? So my point is that's more to the law on how the kids eight Lie Release Energy food so it's thirty minutes live hungry before little screaming got so And we've Sammy becomes microseconds. You just tossed Mike thing is with him off because he he's constant data hungry data hungry de longer and this is where it came from because like you going to draw me inside so go to work feeling off as much as I can and so they just across his just something that they've not locked avoided when used to serve up sandwiches on if you've observed your kids when they eat sandwiches been but when the crust is on the they give this really wad birth and so they definitely not gonna eat the cross but they they leave a lot of boot fade behind as well so what authorities pampering them just going into the spice or just WanNa feel them as much as I can with as much food as I can. That's actually a friend of mine. Told me a great story when he was a key that one nine hundred nineties so he's just put it in the fridge and basically served between for breakfast and if you didn't ended and he says and he's a item on Clinton and he says at that moment in time on you on everything that always served up or got to be cited again that I'll say it again say it again and of course. I was aimed is in parenting based ice. Oh you'd be you'd have dogs around cover design. What are you doing you counter that? That's one meal so anyway but I'm not advising people to do that. Police take that as advice. Not but it just it might appoint. You're not suggesting to that. I'm not I'm not. I need to cut the united the crosstalk few bread or whatever works for you and that's the boy but I. I've raised that story with a couple of times when the boys are not necessarily getting good stuff but are to the little bit. Fussy on my food. I'd I'd I nate tomato Raw tomato dont`a dominates comedy seating. There sign kids. Eight everything on your plight. Move the tomato to the solid Saturday's tomato fruit or veggies. It's got seed Bras. Fruit to warn prejudice spell us. Say Good Probably News. Buying Property News brought a couple of important messages. Firstly I'll start with just the property market seems to be passing. H test every weekend clearance. Rights ARE UP. Yes online numbers. We understand that BUT OBVIOUSLY NARRATIVE COLLINS. Bigtime and said the evidence is suggesting and she's been speaking with some ideas so she's pretty economists that real estate dot com we on the show and you'd be saying what she's got a boy so yeah but she's also a subject matter expert in the knowledge and she's got the best data going around so I wind. She talks listen. I listen and then when when the journalist than did some ringing around and asking a few of the I they were justifying their process. God's up in some pockets of Sydney at the moment so that's a positive so that's definitely making news. The other big one that I wanted to find conscious of tone is what's been released by the Property Council of Australia. This is big news. So they have a seven point. Plan in terms of kick-starting these Ryan Economy and also understanding a few very very important things that is bras that the property industry put this into context is thirteen percent of GDP employs. I've two million people and so in terms of I think it's monning in manufacturing combined. It's bigger than those from an employee's point of view and so it's a critical element of mock apply. They've got a few seven seven point plan. We'll put the link in the shower nights where you can get the full document. But I'm going haul lot just a couple of seven points because we don't have time for everything because there's one in here. Which in my view is the the ice cod that the Liberal Party could use the basically detainee other sort of initiative that I need to do so I wanna get to that quickly. But the first one is a fifty thousand Dolla- new-home boosts game so anyone who wants to buy or sawn up to get a new hung obviously construction jobs and everything locked bicycle except fifty thousand new dwellings would be what they're looking to do as this new boost scheme that we're looking at they looking for tax reform on Stem Judy. We all in some degree and I agree with that. Audit necessarily agree with the land tech's but because GST is state based revenue or absolutely support looking at Janus today. We're gotTA grow up. We're GONNA wanted to stay in where we can pay. It is a consumption tax. It's the best type of tax stamp. Judy is not a productive tax. At all. It's an ineffective tax in fact you know the amount of money that we get from it. He's is arbitrary. It's inconsistent so from planning point of view if you probably market's going up then stamp duty revenues. You probably is just not easy in terms of state governors. So come off to stay in this. The politics pace often understand why we can't have a genuine conversation with mature people that Jay state needs to lift up in terms of. It's a great opportunity to look at sort of doing some initiatives around social housing To get some more of that socializing so we have a good safety net. So I think there's a little bit but here it is the big one. The big one that been advocating full and it's a simple fix and it's something that we're very familiar with Robert. Menzies Bros Rosa Robert Menzies founder of the Liberal Party He had two stints as prime minister. One when he was. I think it was the National Union Party. I'm just Don crabby. On that small stint before world. War Two is the prime minister Prime ministers resolved poss- wack court. Remember that back story. But he's my throttle. What as the founding father of the Liberal Party And I'm not a member of the robot has voted light memorial vital liberal in my life. So just come takes. People that are on So he took our every non in forty non possible how signal and he effectively governed that country to the most prosperous period of greatest. Dry In dream was built on that and it was built on the back of what? Bros not on the shapes back because that go to say not on the back of gold in terms of how we got through Saudi but on the back of what brought us all the time on the back of wall Christian immigration all of us here today are a product of immigration other than Al First Nations people and so immigration laid that Boone. And we if we're talking about the worst climate since that period then we need to look at immigration so take the politics out of jobs frustrations that jobs on merit table. Put your best foot forward. Get the job won't work out. Get that job. So if you do `immigration and so the property cancel of Shriaat talking about a welcome to Australia immigration plan. I love it. I think it makes perfect sense to me. Let's get the best and broadest from overseas. Who bring them money with them are so they actually have to have money? So they're not going to be a burden on Texas and brass the Dhiraj walk off the plane. And what's happening this Papal Judy? Free who've got a job because they're going to ball a little bit judy free when they get there. They walk through. Customs officer customers the Immigration Officer. There's a person walking a dog that's job. They get out of immigration the trolley that I use they park the trolley. All the blood has to go and pick up that trolley. That's a job so these are job for that. Trolley Guide they get an uber or Cabo whatever they go into the city and I stay in a hotel. That's a job for the front office desk person for the conscious person to take the. Take the bags this job in in in the restaurant for someone to serve them. They first meal. Wait a minute. There's a chef shifts to joke to gets that job now. They're not only just arrived in Australia. They go to transfer their money into the country. Well that's nice big cash. They know productivity just money coming in that they also need to go out and get to seven eleven to get some some supplies so they put the convenience store that I need to go to a job for someone in convenience or what about the truck driver who drive all the goods that got them understand where. I'm going with this well. Every person that comes into the country every dollar that. Spain's on property is three dollars into the economy. Every person that comes into this fallen nation could be on next brilliant. Brian Surgeon could be the next person who cured cancer could be the next person who also turns up and cleans of building and leaves an honest life and and leaves a bit law from where they've come from south ships. I've been let's purchase this from the other side then a case clearly Austin agree. What about the fact that I will be taking a just for discussion? Yeah show that'd be taking local jobs. How would they be taking jobs? They've just created more jobs than they've taken process. I on the exterior lighting discussion yet. That's the point so as long as we get that message. They'd have people because what happens in bras is the first then. I go on the portals and nine hundred to look for maybe short term accommodation outside of a hotel and then after that I spend usually six months then I go shopping for hunt and this is what the Property Council is sighing in terms of the biggest y that we can get through these to continue immigration program. Now we have learned through Cova nine that our program of Oscillating people for fourteen days so we can test them on the plane on the why at we can test them when they arrive. We can also like them voting dies we can test them off then the bringing no risk to us in terms of that they're just bringing opportunity and then. I go shopping bras need to buy linen. They need to buy a bathed. I need to buy a couch a fridge. All of those things are retail jobs. All of that is part of this movement. That will get us through this period and Mike Australia The Prosperous Nation Cape of the prosperous nation. That that that it is. And that's what Bernard salt being talking. And that's what we believe. And that what he's going to happen in terms of they're coming anyway. So why? Why would you stole them? I would bring them now. Because they create more jobs in Tyke and that is evidenced in all of the economic data. Because we're not necessarily taking people who are well who can't be productive to the Society. We can work out. Who WE WANNA take remembering? We've got a baby. Boom generation with five thousand people awake a turning over sixty five years of age. They are to eight healthcare that you're going to need support of his. They are going to need all these other things. But what what? The country needs is attack spice and that is people working to be able to pay for the medical and all of the things that we offer these people so it is absolutely critical that we bring young people to this nation. The five dollar poems the Italians the Greek the Vietnamese all these people that were bought through over journey the forties and fifties and sixties is why this country is great and why this country is multicultural. And why on the whole we've got a great society so immigration is the key to unlocking the economic door. And as long as everyone understands that we're going to be better served my time China a lot. The Passion and clearly all agree with you. So folks Let us know what you think on socials but often lock to signal that you keep the do. What's making property? News got some good data for next week. We're going to obviously have show on all the dot of it's coming ants. So it's a little bit of a dog into the daughter and the results from the Serb on looking forward to watch a sharing that in talks inside flex enjoyed that Looking back to the back to twenty. Yes I have a little insight into how pivot change until next week. That knowledge is impairing. I Fox sports told why he before you go if you want to community and only listen to maybe a handful of episodes. I thoroughly recommend that you go all the way back to episode number one where we unpacked all of the foundations when it comes to property investing for those of you the mob. Illuminate Tom Poor. Of Good News for you we have a binge God that you can download straightaway which summarizes the first twenty episodes. Where Ben and I on the fan pillars of the ABC ABCD and so much more and you can get that straight away. If you go to the probably catch dot com forward slash TPC twenty. You can download and consume it whenever you want. It's completely free and inviolable. Now for those of you just a quick remind that nothing. We've spoken about today constitutes financial advice. We recommend that you reach out to your licensed professional advisor so that you can look at your unique before acting on any information. And don't forget go to the probably catch up com forward slash teepee. Say Twenty get you today.

Tom Bin Sydney Jane Ben Australia Perth US Dan Mike Mistake Chair Property Investors Counc Brisbane East Coast Iraq Ben It partner ABC property manager Ben Alawi Stein jared jared Hennequin
310 | Is Property Just A Ponzi Scheme?

The Property Couch

1:21:43 hr | 4 months ago

310 | Is Property Just A Ponzi Scheme?

"Welcome to the property couch week, you get to listen to two of Australia's leading experts, Bryce Holloway Co host of Location Location Location Australia box does lifestyle channel Co host of escape from the city on the ABC and partner of Impel Wealth Advisory Ben Kingsley Chair Property Investors, Council of Australia and the founder of and Paulo. Th Advisory named the two thousand, eighteen in two thousand and nineteen property advisory firm of the year stay tuned as they renew the insiders guide to property finance and money. Management. Bertha. Welcome back to the property catch podcast. Welcome back to you to Ben. How are you can? I might hey going or a good how you must be at a look any AK- of had a haircut on lockdown guess road onto the Melburnians for. Sticking in. Day. chewed? Yes. Might it's looked. A must've been on account really relates because you said to me yesterday when all shutting Segalla might Dina and I'm thinking. You haven't even been had to go for Bata eight whereas all. I haven't necessarily been experiencing that. So yes, I agree that it's been a phenomenal boy phenomenal group of Astrid into done what they've done to to get the coup flattened again. So Mike, good to see you Beckett and well done everyone in Melbourne and Victoria for that. They still had to you know sophistry were pretty difficult. Tom Siwei. Hopefully. Outside of until the third wife comes, which is when that's GONNA BE A. Vaccine or is it going to be a third one? Okay well For All the Victorians who have been through a second wife Ben don't really want to hear about the third one getting tested everyone if you're not feeling well, please get tested because that's how it spreads. Exactly so a couple of things just a congratulations to the Richmond stole. broncos PICO ago. There was clearly some amazing results. So we wipro. US. Unite the in the women in our Rod, the WPRO, the Brisbane broncos in I. Think it's the three seasons have only ever lost one guy. Here, all that's that's that's an incredible stop to I to. I dynasty. Honesty's that. One Guy in one regular season one year but they've naval ost Lebron. Franchises has been successful for a long period of time particularly. while storms dominated, of light. broncos struggling. A lot of problems up there in terms of the the couches and pliers and size on the famous flying on outside. What what onto there was A. Hassle been as you know I'm split one dog one when. I was I was talking to my elder son Jack adoptees might off at half-time because he studied watch the game and a coaching Jackie into my younger brother, we've just got to nurture him because you know the catch twenty two points up and I'm thinking because I'm watching Sam everyone in the House has gone for the cats accept him any sug reactive I'm thinking all this isn't. Actually Coaching Jeff through just just be gracious. Be Humble. We gotta get for Sam as well and then of course. Ten rants I won't on Tames. It's on again next year hopefully, Freeman will be up next Ben. And I'll went leave any spice few days. To Join. High Guess. What been we have released new podcast can you believe it? Pretty catch has a sister or brother podcast. Yameogo property. Investing I can't remember doing that podcast. What is it? So it's you and all going through a book chapter by Chapter. Very. Remember turning up to that. No. The Youtube series that we did yeah. So turn it into a podcast. Awesome. was usually. John Thinking about that Youtube series or was it maybe facebook law facebook law that's right. On social because you get you read each live jumper on doesn't mean that we all have to would youtube sagong check that details would be in the Shire. Nights. and. Ben We earlier in the year we launched ask out and build course we are going to do that again so. WE'RE GOING OFF A discount. So we're GONNA do is for anyone who gives us? We've done this before been. So we're GONNA do it again if you go into June and give us a writing on author of the two podcasts. Ones that way read at where she going to give you a course free of charge stride ally engine the dates you can log in stride away stop consuming twelve. With the amazing content. That is coming up. So hang around for that Fox pretty few if you haven't had if this content has served you. As being powder back community and you WANNA give us some feedback. Once diaries fallen. We've got one-star reviews been. That is totally fond preference all I've been anywhere on the spectrum that you WANNA. Let us know some feedback. We're happy to have that and we have read map before and we have read at known for style reviews before as well. Give us your honest feedback gown. Let's. We're giving away in the next few weeks, some courses Ben and we love to do that. Also the summer series done the shadow and go to a few people putting the hand up now, which is really Excited about that. So. Let us know if you want to be part of Osama series let us know if you've got a transformation that you wanNA share with other people because we want to share that. So the Property Castro come ready for Mois story is the place to go for that, and also if you've read Apple Mike Money simple again and you want to share your experience with that m format, Sane would love to chat with you We will go on zoom coal we might recorded with your permission and we'll turn that into a video that we can share with communities well so. If you've enjoyed Mike money simple again and you want to share your. Experiences with us. Let us know and last been. We had a really good experience about three or four episodes ago. There was a series where we raiding lots of people speak POPs. Gallon put the details on and then read it out. So encourage more people to do that because we love those you jump straight up the queue with question and We'll put them on future besides which is really really good. Mindset Minute Ben off really enjoyed it for anyone. WHO's this is the first time they listening and I haven't heard any of the previous sort of fourteen or thirteen episodes on walking through head win friends and influence people by Dial Carnegie amount to check to fourteen in part three headwind people to your wife thinking there's a bit. There's if there's a few key bits of gold he had been on. So I'm going to go through I'm calling quickly because there's a lot to to to. What I is the sacred of socrates. Secret, I'm still pretty. So Hey, we got to talking with people don't begin by discussing the things which you differ. Began by emphasizing and Capon infrastructuring the things on which you agree keep emphasizing if possible that you are both striving for the same end that you're only difference is one of method and not of purpose. And here it is get the other person saying, yes. Yes. At the acid Cape Your opponent if possible from signing. A NAR response according to professor over overstreet is a most difficult handicap to overcome. When you have said Ohio, proud of personality demands that you remained consistent with yourself you might lie to feel that the NY was ill advised, but nevertheless, there is a precious pride to consider. So the ATI here clearly is that if you can get people into the rhythm of saying yes. That will achieve the endgame that you're trying to achieve more. than if I start with an. So, hence, it is of the very greatest importance that a person be started in the affirmation. It is a very simple technique and this is really important here it is a very simple technique this yes response and yet how much is it neglected? It often seems if people get a sense of there aren't importance and remember one of the previous ones Ben was the the the need for people to feel important ores. Robinson significant. So it's often same as people get a sense of of their own importance boy antagonizing all. At the ads had been so that what you said before al-Qaeda dream when I was talking about fremantle aren't. Very affirming I think that was antagonistic Ben so Take some notes that you debate glass half full. Impact of Nazi been. Gets live Athens was one of the greatest philosophers the world ebanon he sharply changes. Sorry sharply changed the whole course of human thoughts are what he's method. He's whole technique now called the socratic method was based on getting. Yes. Yes. Response. He ask questions in which he's opponent had to. He kept on winning wanted mission after another until he had an armful of. He kept on asking questions until fondly almost without realizing it. He's opponents fan themselves embracing a conclusion. They would have brutally denied a few minutes previously. So heritage as we wrap it up, the Chinese have a proverb pregnant with the old wisdom of the Orient. Hey who tread softly goes five. So he is principle number four get the other person's saying yes. Yes. Immediately Agai been wisdom love rips wisdom. I am fairly enjoying bringing out some of these. Gold points threat and I am getting some feedback that it is serving people. So I'm excited about the League I folks principle number four, the other posted saying yes. Yes immediately they. Love, it might love it where we go tonight Ben, we're going to talk about some feedback that we go from client. So to give it a little back story, what happens is whenever we fulfil. An assignment that's given to us within a business we send out a little note decided folks can you tell us what we should keep doing stop doing and stop doing and one of the feedback court mile Iran what we should start doing and I think in the response to the question? I think there's a lot of benefit for Accu actually hearing what response would be. So what I'll do is all actually rated at in its entirety I'm not to side of the coin because that's not important but the feedback that was given is the really important thing. So I'll read it out and then we'll circle back in you know I will dissect it. So you out for that love. Let's do it. So a lot of an an clearly this person is over young generation, a lot of millennials in brackets including myself as skeptical about property and put off investing because we raid slash consume a lot of stuff that is bearish on property. I would also say that I found it difficult to listen to the podcast. It's too nomi and dozen address slash contend with A. Lot of the current Zeke ghost outside the mainstream media that people consume nowadays in brackets zero Hedge Matinal Real Vision Jolly Swagman podcast set seem tile Steve Cain, and the case for Crypt I put off investing in property for years because of this sort of content saying that property is a pyramid scheme for boomers and the valuations are only maintained to central bank policy and credit availability. Instead of dismissing this stuff as conspiracy theories actually take it on and come up with persuasive arguments against it instead of relying on. May taking five years to fond them myself. Number One admit that the current immigration levels are unsustainable politically and can't be K. drive of HASP process number to admit that the majority of growth in house prices is Judah credit availability and decreasing interest rates number three admit that there is nothing inherently different about astrid out from cy all and or spine, and they probably crashes in brackets than Miami the ability to print Aaron Kartesky and number four admit the risk of a Japanese lost decade and drop in consumption and birthrights caused by high levels of household debt. I would have felt why better going into this and just for context, this particular client actually did buy property. So I would have felt why better going into this if odd heard some strong arguments against this stuff having said all that I want to invest in property because it's a human need and it will never go to zero in brackets wealth preservation are. Remind skeptical of continued prescribed or in brackets or at least real process close brackets. However, I acknowledged that, yes, the game is rigged boomers but what choice do I have question mark getting an s h won t return on real estate is better than doing nothing if you WanNa get more in brackets smart millennials on board, you need to address the stuff. So, there's a fair but in that been and and. I guess We again unpack that pace by pace but what's interesting is it's a pyramid scheme for by be Biden's. I mean. It was a pyramid scheme for baby miss. what does it say about the item in delighting hundreds? When per capita Melbourne was the richest in sort of CD, on the planet. I'm not show. That that, we need to just look at it from a by boom, his point of view but I think we do need to acknowledge. A couple of important things he for millennial fuck and. There is definitely some headwinds that they've got the the first one he's. The baby boomers had a pretty great run post war wrong and the vast majority of them. Were immigrants so you know in terms of. The country was opened up after the second will and we have the fog Selah Palms with a ten dollar poems in the the Italians, the Greeks the Vietnamese after with had, and that is served us well in terms of the brilliant multicultural country that we have here today and and the prosperity that we've got because these people came with nothing and they've made good and you know they've they've spa to do that but with that kind free education. Free University Education, and that has not been possible full the the millennial generation. SINAIA. Definitely starting on the back foot bear. So I want to acknowledge that and also on a global economy really all the been I was calling in still in house astride growing up in the sixties and the seventies and walk through to the turn of the century it wasn't. Wasn't as globalized forces we have now. So it it was a, it was a great time to be to grow up in this country. We were very prosperous Brosseau even. So first of all and that we've got abundance of natural resources, then we did amazing things on the back of the shapes back rot in terms of growing at the economy in terms of agriculture. We're blessed in terms of the amount of food that we produce. We produce for three times our clients on an expert that we've got and with expiration, we now have a booming one in an old potentially you know some some more hiring goods that we sell and also We're blessed with nine ball prize winning scientists and and Dr. stops things. I would have a would lock to think that we would invest more in science and Technology Area I think that he's going to be important for our next hundred years but we have been blessed. I'm sorry. So as much as I understand how millennials can feel That that it's that it has been a challenge Fulham and and obviously wasted here is You know sort of why Jane? You know, Sorta next month gene expression side genetics. So. It's obviously difficult to hear this information from people who are who are. Yeah, it's easy for us because we also you know I got those benefits and citing deposit Israel eighties a different challenge. It's a big challenge route I mean it is as we say, the most difficult challengeable housing affordability. Is Relative. Lock in terms of the median has processes is five hundred and fifty thousand dollars but the median has cross in Sydney or Melbourne is not five hundred and fifty thousand dollars. It's relative to obviously the expectations that some of our millennials have which is I won't what what I said. I WANNA leave close to the city that one all the spoils and and I get that I get that but that's not the full story of housing affordability. In other words I grew up in a household that was twenty six kilometers from the city. It was lower middle-class under and my my parents. Medium. Wages might be slightly above minimum wages in the end of their careers. And now I see here earning probably three times what? In terms of that. Guy, not consider inside and what did I do well, I didn't move out wide I picked up future family and I moved closer to the city and sorry and that income that I had was high for me to allow me to buy a substantial hyme in a in a in a higher net worth area and so that's that's the Sokoll like some people you know there's going to be a cohort of people who who will be pro. And that's the biggest cohort of people in this country, and that's the cohort of people that basically have that ripple effect on where prices move at one, a land values move at water but decide that it's a pyramid. Gang. Is is not not recognizing. The of bicycling what we're talking about here, and that is what underpins the value of properties the lamed now and the land he's going to appreciate if there is. Long term demand on that yes. It's going to absolutely move in cycles. Yes. There's going to be some overexuberance in terms of people are going to get ahead of themselves properly process going to move higher in areas that I probably wouldn't I'm get into that day talented centers of interest rates as we got but. Just on that because Ponzi scheme as you say, relies on a people in early getting the returns from the people that keep coming afterwards Saturday as as long as people keep coming in afterwards, the returns keep flying the China but as soon as the last la of people coming into the game What's the Mima Bernie Madoff was not? ME. That team in terms of the one in America? Yes. So that's that's the hall is price fall. It's a fascinating documentary, get a chance to watch it but The idea is that there is no intrinsic value in the scheme it's just logically relied on more and more people coming. So guessing the references that the Bible receive at the top of that and the millennials sit at the bottom but there I Think the key point that you just talked about was the intrinsic value is the land and the real estate that is underneath. So they full if you have a scenario where you've got scarcity of land scarcity of property and more people chasing the value still exists and and when the music stops, you still have something in your hand whereas in a in a Ponzi scheme when the music stops the last people in. Come collapsing but not not anyone who collect it's ever on this game as well So so so I wanted to just the same familiar was just a bad firstly acknowledging high we realize that it's not as easy as you feel it is I mean in your world that you're looking at it citing that deposit is not easy but I suspect when you would talk to the baby boomers is and you would talk to the to the genetics is an and. They probably, GonNa tell you this story about how it was a bit challenging for name to rot. In terms of context. So we all have al of our mindsets and and beliefs around that. That said, yes. In theory the high value property. Illogic Deposit. What has changed during that generation. 'cause you've also gotta remember in the Baby Boom Generation. If, you didn't have a twenty percent deposit. You would not going to get into the property and we are going to have a guest on the show in the coming weeks who is going to be another masterclass rod and all of informed enough to to know job for a long time but he talks about investing in property united to back in. The seventies united to get private funding. So through through law firms and so forth and the maximum you can get was a sixty percent loan to value ratio annual paying a premium for that money. So so that the difference of that and what is also gonNA catalysts foot potentially some of the garth East what we call it the debt and leverage story. was that we have through Linda's mortgage insurance bang I would open up the market to allow for people to borrow up to ninety five percent and obviously during the heavy use of the early two thousands. Prejudge. People were able to borrow one hundred and five percent of the value of the Heim just based on their income story, not necessarily based on any deposit story that has differently led to a further demand. Elements that that it applied a role in in where property prices on tonight. But so let let's just acknowledge that for some people absolutely tough. I'm Ben can also acknowledged for the millennials to that. The culture challenge that they face right now is uniquely different to what you and feist particularly say even more parents because while mom got married at Nineteen, my dad got married at twenty. So he's there's no different even data twenty eight is still considered young ladies is. I, think one of the challenges that millennials have is is just that just that shift in law sokoll where If you go back to my parents generation, they would get married. By Hasse, what they? Why up start a family elicits things whereas millennials. Now the norm is, is to you know. One of my statements that are not overly generally stick, but but given some of those major life decisions have been pushed further down the track. They have an opportunity to to travel. Start a new business or Do. A whole range of things that if you talk to my parents site I thought that's what you did at retirement. He didn't do it the front of your life you did at the back of your lot. Therefore. If you if you have a look at millennials than normal with this fear of influence in the friends is to do a lot more now. Spend on lost all now so that you can accumulate these memories you can cumulate these experiences which a fabulous and I. And I think it's terrific but but but it's also meant that if you can pay. This generation to that that's that's one of the reasons why vibe were able to get a foot on the property ladder is because early. They buckled down by border property they win at wide and they moved in closely. So Autumn on I WANNA be genetics who throws Mata millennials because their choices a fallen and. Say A lot of millennials having an amazing sort of period, Tom Raw and. All I knew was economic prosperity. So why wouldn't you go and do some of those things but I think I think if we if we break it down the, it's really just about what it takes win and what you want to art. Awesome. Because even the laws said, we've got full four different measures of of. Housing affordability and the three of them were similar in any generation. But the fourth one that she might appoint on and you've touched on it is the fact that saving for a deposit, he's a challenge on, and so we acknowledged that it it's a challenge so but it really comes down to I. I can tell you lots of millennials who've got on the property lambda, and so they they really folk in the ride with I needed to make a choice on whether they wanted to go down that path, go down an existing pop but. I, just wanted to suicide there I think the norm facing millennials is different to the normal fighting maze ex and also baby boomers around the cultural norm at the time because the cultural now is to is to really spend. Energy and effort on creating experience, and for the now, which is which is counterintuitive to getting to the Popula- Bras we only need to guard back history is a good hr wrought so. and. You know let's call it the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries fifteenth centuries. Mind standing it was the people getting married in thirteen or fourteen years of drought because I needed to jam pack a lot into their loft because I, think the. Was Forty odd years. You know you were dying from old sorts of things from black flags and Now let's fast forward to the to the non into twentieth century. The same sort of thing with your parents says, as you documented with your dad, you know he's a powerful Iran side they needed to jayme everything in because they lost expectancy was sort of sixty rotten and. I we're getting married early, and now the life expectancy of the millennials coming through. Now he's Moloch Ninety two to one hundred, and so they do have the luxury of of being I. would have had the Dick idol of of enjoyment and soulful if I want to travel an exploring a few things and there's not that pressure to jamming to starting a family and we'll let lucky apparently because. Ultimately LAV expecting sixty five. So that's always laying Tom Technology advancement and the beauties of science and medicine. So. That's probably the context when you generalize you generalizing still based on fact. In terms of looking at coyotes have groups, and that's what's happening. We asking millennials Mary lighter. Settled down lighter and and then start to focus on having children lateran in all probably in that cohort as well. We didn't have You Know Jack until I was. Thirty nine as an example, right? So. So they are the types of stories that we can tell. So so acknowledging what what he's a challenge, but also please don't don't take the mindset of while that's my. That's my place in the world pot of what we do here on this podcast is about. Break them out and walk your own path Bryson is say great millennials and and we just heard from one of them. Now who SORTA signed, I'm not necessarily going to listen to those shareholder people telling me the world's caving in and it's frost the navy and it's a real disappointed to shy, and it's not fair. Wish said all along that that ultimately Easterby it's up to me, and if you take a road less tribal review tyke responsibility, not blaming other people leaving leaving that hard work in our to to religion leaving that hard work for the government to do you got to do the work on yourself. A Nice people who do that work will benefit from from the actions that Tyke. So I think that's good. But let's let's get into the points that arise the broncos number. What pointed meet that the current immigration levels are unsustainable politically and can't be a K. drive or past process. So. So the story that's that's frying up dairies that there is differently the belief on left wing politics that that's a anytime we open up being immigration with hiking. Australian Jazz. and that is the position of of a unions sold. Aside, we need to employ Australians first. Before we look artists as to to make dollars dollars on. Arrival Rob was coming in for for short term basis job basis or whatever now. Contrary to that view, and there's obviously a lot of research done in this particular area and you know these reference to. A report that was released by the Committee of Economic Development in Astrid, which is he'd up that that show that immigration has not harmed the earnings of larkhall workers and that research walls released and I did. A solid study around that seventy percent of temporary school migrants resided in New South Wales, and Victoria, which consequently also had the lowest rights of unemployment in Australia and saw. We've we've tried to articulate that in in very simple terms by of. The moment somebody arrives in this country to leave here. They have requirements and needs. They have a central nave which shelter. And I also food clothing so that I need to set themselves up so that he's a new a new person coming in Dina Transport, I need to to to go to Rachel world. Food Prepared Them Ninety Guy at the supermarket all of those things add to the production. Of off requirements in terms of consumption, and so when that consumption takes place that actually has a flow on affecting terms of creating more jobs so As, much as the politics will play out for the ill informed and that he's you know I'm sitting here on employed. Sorry. said that story resonates to me the sore side while. Ways my jobs but even through the pandemic Bryce with heard of femme looking to get their produce off the trees for the you know the the started fruits as an and just not being out to get the live on. to be able to do that, we've saying you know way wasn't invent Awad to apply appliance arrive from Benoa Darwin. So they can get the mango off the trace that we can have some anger brought. So I think I think we need to always when we say these generalizations to be to be careful not to to think. That the because it's very politically difficult when on the back of the Liberal, party was built by Sir Robert Menzies and Sir Robert Menzies Right custodianship of the Australian economy. was built on the back of Marts was built built on the back of the building. In fact, the greatest Ryan drink allowing people to come out here and start a new law. When we when we do make that sacrifice, we do want to show the rest of the world we've come from in terms of our family and relatives back home that we're making. Good. Point you pointed out Bernard Salt in he. He wrote a book, the big shift back in allred back in the early two thousands and he had this concept of the empty all and syndrome, which is essentially saying, Hey, listen. There's not a lot of people on that island despite the fact that when you grow up locker up thinking Perth was a big city been. Now I got back in the skull on and think, wow, I used to really think this was a big splash rob it. And that's not to discredit while the why it's just. Put in context and moment Sydney it's a smaller city but that empty all in syndrome is really saying, Hey, listen compared to well even if we think about early this year when we had the bushfires I remember a lot of the country that was going on in the US was I would superimpose. The continent Austria, and put it over the top of the US and quote a lot of the Malek. Wow. We had no idea that the size of what I doing down there. He's actually the almost same saw as is us. It's pretty big raw but the difference between what the US thousand straight as I build cities in the middle. Whereas Australians. Have these coastal congregations and very rarely with the exception of Alice Springs in a few. Places we rarely go into the middle. So. Therefore, we've got this this sovereign island, which is also a country, which is also a continent that has an incredible standard of living which has people look around the world. I'll say that this is really enticing place to be, and we've got one of the standard of living in the world. So I, guess the thing that I think obvious. Whenever if you're in a restaurant on fraud and it's your favorite restaurant imagine sitting there and seeing all the people coming in and you can't get say and all that sort of stuff you go chase this restaurant to be really grateful these people went he get seats right away and so that's that's in a vacuum you go show but but it's a fraud I'm not is always going to be paypal and there's always gonna be people. In a great restaurant. So I feel that has a condom analogy for how we are in strategy that wouldn't it be great if we could keep it the white is and not have a lot of people want to come here because we live here in Santa leaving. But that's that's a closed view of what we get from opening it up and and grinding scenario. As you mentioned before, we've got this wonderful multicultural scenario so we need applied win. Rather than to lure. So I think whenever you've got your sporting team and they're up in the last quarter and I can see that they're in front and all of a sudden I stopped playing really defensively and the other teams attacking and they guy defensive supplying not to lose rather than plankton and I, feel like that's that's a good analogy for this discussion because for us to be able to prosper economically and. For us to continue to have the standard of living that we have takeaway the politics. If we don't continue to have more people want to come enjoy this law style. It's very difficult for us to grow, and therefore our economy will continue to other guy saw it wise. Oh Guy Dam, which has a has a negative impact on people leaving here. croisette standard of living will will be challenged on it goes on to. Revisit this when we get two point, four of what this particular client talked about as well because it's it's it pause into with a reference to Japan, but then think it I, think it's not just a political discussion. It's a it's a standard of living discussion for us to continue to enjoy the standard of living that. We we currently enjoying this country. It is greatest place on earth boy I'm all I'm and and we we only need to look with what's going to happen in America and what's been happening there and what's happening in the NFL news fades to so to say just how lucky we are that we are. In this country. So yet, I'm not sure that you say Scott Morrison and the currently will potty I mean they're already talking about. Saying opportunity in terms of getting the talent pool out of Hong. Kong. And, and that is the future we. We do need you know the thought leaders To to come to this country and to to Tyke challenges in to stop businesses and to to be without the economy, I mean it's all well and good debt that we also obviously need to get work at all levels are right down to to to accommodate. Everyone at every level of intellect to be able to do that. But but if you don't stop those businesses, they may not necessarily be jobs in different areas of the economy and that's that's really important. So. We'll by the sand things, we're GONNA be looking at a targeted immigration program and and on suspect postcard, we will start to get back up to the sort of labels that we expected in the population garth rights of that one point full one point fog that we needed to get to because we we do niring terms of from I from a capacity point of view we can accommodate them we have enormous opportunity. We you know there is enough water here at prime production can come that we can feed them. We ought to house. Them. And that's Poudel that Ginny. Now I'm not saying capitalism's perfect. I don't want to have that come such and that's possessory. It is no perfect and we absolutely want to say a thriving middle class and really apple podcast is really designed around the concept of if people look after their money control. By couple of property sensibly add that to the superannuation Then all of a sudden they list of a government purse and I can live comfortably. And continue on with the lost all that they've come to enjoy while they were working. That's really that's that's that's our purpose that's mission in terms of being able to do that we. Brought often talk about scorecard that we have in terms of. What we take versus what we left behind or what we give. Right. So so how much do we take this is how much do we give and as long as we always keep that equilibrium in terms of giving more than we take, and if everyone took that approaching law Applies via the world would be a five eight plus his. So the question that you've you've said he ac lawn. Admit that the current immigration levels are unsustainable politically in copy occa- driver past prizes. Therefore we counted that been. By by on what we're saying so Quiz Quiz. We actually do think that the this empty Orland will continue to be attractive and we'll continue attract paper. We actually think it's good for growth. Well, you think about Kevin Rod quickly say on either going to be astrology and he got shot down by the unions because that was what was the biggest dry in looks more immigration and so forth and we we do know that obviously socially where we are getting challenged by. Views that are popping up in social media in terms of racism starting to show vice in some parts of the world it's really you know destructive the the you know the fit, the the news feeds and all of that in from an different sort of meteorologist over very destructive. But what you do find is it it'll just it'll just come off the agenda in terms of the media cycle and now just bring those peopling. Out they'll handle it when they came that WanNa talk about it because I understand that most people have these simple view that it that it does You know that it is politically challenging but I'll tell you what we can bring it in three or four, hundred, thousand people private. And I suspect that will just continue to keep happening as businesses identify. In our skills shortages that I haven't applied for visas and visas get approved to those people arrive. So I think that'll happen just in the background. So it's a scarcity versus abundance sort of monster of. There is there is enough to go around and the people coming in not it's not one job at two people competing for one job. The idea is that bringing someone else will create another job and then having someone else coming will create another job. So it's not a bad taking. From people, it's about creating more opportunity and including more Jimmy for kids to To Gal up the corporate ladder, what would I choose? For their own professional off. So that's number one number two been. Is At meet asking us to admit that the majority of growth in house prices is Judah, credit availability and decreasing interest rights. Interesting because there is a component of that that sexually tree. One hundred percent what will sign that credit availability is I think credit availability in this country is Hotta the high barriers to entry than than some of the other countries that have. Sane challenge including the US during the say including some of the European countries which will talk about shortly. Look. We are on this podcast is saying that the borrowing capacity has been increased from back in the typical off Sokoll the seventy s where you have had increase in household cash flow Vala. Wanting, come, becoming one and a half incomes becoming two incomes becoming the potential for two fulltime professional income site. Clearly, that's an an organic increase in the amount of cash flow coming in and the recession we had to have had very high interest rates versus where we are now at unbelievably large. So yes, those things have contributed to increasing barring capacity which has had increasing results in saying process, but but whether or not that that. Roth is only because of that will we've had decreasing household sizes has been so we've gone from. Two Point Three hassle causes now to an increase in single people living on the own, which is increasing the demand. And you've also had what we talked about before in population growth. So that is part of the equation, but it's not the end opinion. The only reason why there's been house correct. I mean ultimately the in terms of demand drugs, you rise lars points, beautifully Bros way shelter shelter. Is Provocative. In single household form double household full and family household composition form flat might foam whatever that looks like. So population growth, a does a create demand and obviously immigration and birth tests right replies role in that. But in terms of what is up property worth it does come down to very much the ability to actually borrow money. Which is completely visit clear correlation to income. 'cause if you don't have income, you calm borrow money. Now the story of the rising tide lifting all ships has been a product of. Interest rights painting during the early nineteen hundreds as productivity was poor as inflation was out of control and then catering rebooted the economy, and so you just need to look at how historical interest rates have come down, which has obviously meant that people could borrow more and that is ultimately being part of that that story because at the end of the die true demand is only a product of people's ability to be able to afford it. and. So that's why we've had the ripple effect where property prices have continued to grow even not only in the INNOC- areas but also in the add a CD areas because. The reality is that the logic cohort all of demand is driven by their affordability. Because by dial in a regression to the million, I have pretty average wages everyone and then there's slightly different cohorts which have. Our hiring comes and I are smaller cohort but I also potentially have the ability to where we're borrowing Peres not relevant to them because they've got so much income that THY potentially look at buying assets, Bhutan status and human interest in human behavior, and that's why. Economics is not just a study of pure demand and supply that sets a price, but it is also around a behavioral economics and why we decide and justified to ourselves that we are going to pay that price. Because there is trusting the marketplace that the knicks person. That's GONNA. Come along. He's GonNa pay a similar across or harp Ross and that tap process it. So yes when you do have interest rates, low incomes have been growing softening in the last couple of years absolutely, and that is something that you should be mindful of in terms of future long-term capital growth in properties in terms of if the average person and the average marketplaces. And gone a lot of income growth over time. Then probably processed could stag night in the more general market. That's a generalist lost I'm sorry you then potentially go look at marketplace's way probably is not saying is a form of shelter. It's actually same as an asset class or a measure of success or measure status because a again I can go out and buy a Zouqi swift. Twelve thousand dollars to get around town or can go out and buy I five, hundred, thousand dollars, Rolls Royce and Anna if it forms, it performs the sign sue this. But the reality is that there is a smaller cohort of is, but that's the scarcity pace and the quality patients I people justified themselves in terms of what that assets worth. What they're willing to pie. So so I I I concur that this is a story of debt and we need to be mindful of that and what we have also evidence bras. Opera has potentially found the lever that they comply with which was evidenced in. Twenty seven twenty eight where I started to play with the assessment right which is a throttle on borrowing Pal I'M Responsible lending is not a throttle on borrowing pal. It was the wrong todd of approach. This is a better approach as I said, don't think that labral and the I I'm mindful of asset bubbles thia incredibly modular, and that could be hugely damaging flight that bobble evolve. And that's where the potentially Labor's that they comply with outside of just interest rate Labor's. Around that sort of assessment throttle some credit availability Donald Ben comes back to if you if you ain't got back to the chiefs say that was There was jingle mile there was Ninja. Loans though the acronyms but Jingle Mile is essentially way in America you have non-recourse lending, which basically means if you can no longer by. The line send the case back to the bank and walk away in Australia. You can't do that. We have recourse lending wrought by we'll go to your as to get the money back. So first of all, he's that and then the other part of the credit availabilities the Ninja line was No Income Angina job, and then the I for now asset. So the amount of money that was being made available to people who weren't in a position where they could really afford it or didn't have a track record suggests that lowered right credit risk we're getting money and therefore you're throwing this money into a system and that's creating demand clearly, that has upward pressure on prices, but we don't have that here in Australia pin recourse lending and the particularly over the last few years the the ability to get loans has been as as challenging as Emma Ross. So again in addressing this direct question around admit that the majority of growth in house. Prices Judah, credit availability, and decreasing interest rates while not the majority but it is a contributor, and as you said, it's going to be mindful of it but there are other things apply. But let's be let's be clear around credit availability around the world and some of the ramifications of the easy access to credit, which is it negative sawn towards the boom that's a boon by Sahgal versus the credit availability conditions that we have in his stride out shouldn't at this point on let people be uncomfortable around people borrowing money when they don't have the ability to service that they should have comfort in the fact that we are consistently given high writings in. Even what you said before and the regulators, the regulators are acutely aware that increasing hopper, inflationary property price cycles. Don't serve anyone at all and given the fact that it's you know it's too big to file property residential property in this country. It's we went fall asleep at the wheel. On property. So number three abandoned meet that there is nothing inherently different about Astrid from all SCIOLINO spine and they probably crashes in brackets other than maybe the ability to print our currency so firstly on on printing currency. That devalue your currency wrought. So there's always a dying Joh- in in sort of that approach, and while not GonNa go to end modern monetary theory, umbrella tonight because we've got enough to talk about already. But what I do want to talk about is is different marketplaces. So in Australia, we have stamp judy that we pie as a one off. When we come into a property, and that's the only duties outside of the rights that we pie for our property in times of its ongoing care and maintenance. We have things like the ability to climb interest if we're investing in property for return that's considered investment. So we can climb the interest as part of the cost by switches pot about tech. System philosophies. We have an I'm not through a bad this, but we have state based property legislation. For a country is is ridiculous but we do. But then if we go to New Zealand, you don't pay capital gains tax on investment properties you go to America actually don't pice Dame Judi as upfront cost by an annual tax on their property. In fact, some sites you can also claim the interest on owner-occupied. which is why it's confusing been what you just said that is why a lot of American. Commentators. Australian people because even even if you read the Old Classic Books Rich Dad Poor Dad Ben. That that becomes a mixed message where people read rule should we be investing in property here year will conditions different embrose white for these fun all I think I've told you about this. We've got a Klein in Switzerland at the moment wrought. dunston muddling for him gripe item on actually at a Sydney. Get I So in terms of In. Switzerland, Bros.. If if you get your property, you're under occupied property to a certain loan to value ratio and we were talking about the Spang around sort of that fifty to sixty percent. You never have to pay your debt off ever. So. So so imagine that. So he's got a lovely property there in Switzerland and unlike I'm saying Andrew. Might. Not Rock in our economy telling because I'm trying to do these models in terms of his retirement planning and I'm saying on on eight some evidence of these. Guys now Texaco's don't. Run. into. And it's and it's a and so he did I've got on my email from a big four tax accounting phone, the definition of the principles that are applying. Switzerland about not having to pay off occupied day. WHOA, sixty percent Lonzo Russia. So you can hold onto that debt and I'm saying, well, whoever pays it off he goes will that the? Work on, there's the wave is gonNA bother property. You'RE NOT GONNA add value to the to the view Joe mock while so you only have to pay interest only indefinitely yup. And you never have to pay off that. I think it was something like you know four hundred thousand euro. What am I never have to pay it off he has not. An actually I don't know where they're in euro where I think it's still Swiss. Bank. But I'm like, this is fascinating. Now so. What do I mentioned nice stories in every. Country There's a legislative framework that that he's the market, Mica or end and the decisions that a might around. Market relative to what what regulation, what what laws are applicable in that marketplace, and so know by Wyatt example when we do talk about all and and we did talk about spying and we talk about America, they all have very differing. Legislate laws, taxes, things you have to Pi- borrowing standards, You know in in a positive side I talked about the the the the borrowing standards in on Android with the banks on able now, to sit their own rights, everyone's at the sign borrowing level. Now, competition on that and that was a product of the the the exuberance that occurred during. The AFC, you know Orland. So where is the competition in in terms of banks not being I would to process risk now I suspect that will eventually adjust itself as as the market stabilizes but I thought it would be also interesting in terms of when we are comparing international cities, Bras and countries with ourselves we tend to all look at the median house brought in this market compared to Australia Oh, it's so expensive right? So we have these. The sound bite of knowledge and that forms thinking around that. Are just wanted to share with you some some rough data. Minimum wage minimum wage in the US bras is seven dollars and fifty two cents per hour which at seventy five. I'm just using a long term. Strike dollar right it's it's actually been seventy, seventy five. That's taint isn't to saints. Her Allah is the minimum wage in America. Now that minimum wage in America brought the median house price in America is three, hundred and twenty, nine thousand. Now. The minimum wage Australia is nine dollars an eighty four cents. So, that's an i. a non percent increase nine dollars ninety two saints it increase on the minimum wage in America. Now, median has prosperous. Stryer is five, hundred, fifty, thousand dollars. So even though it's a ninety eight percent extra amount of income that we ruining the price difference across the nation of both nations is only sixty seven percent so that that is interesting on America is made up of a very diverse. Some You know you can as for probably fifteen hundred dollars steel in some places I would be. Uninhabitable. But the references made to you know that's the marketplace and across Australia. Again, people might be surprised at the meeting is only fifty because they saw used to hearing Sydney's made in has process a million dollars and now. Is Fifty or whatever it is. Now in Auckland a as an example, the you know in terms of the median has processing. Ostlund is two, hundred, Sixty, seven, thousand euro, which equates to around four, hundred, forty, five, thousand Australian dollars. Now. In all Ireland because they as part of the you. And I, have a very very. Healthy Tax set up full company. So I think they have tax regime is fifteen percent from memory. Don't quote me on that, but it's around that. That the minimum wage is actually really strong either there. So their monthly minimum wage as as as a means of comparing it to Australia is seven hundred and forty three dollars as is nine, hundred and twenty three dollars. So is about ten percent difference? Now the difference in property prices around twenty three percent. But you can say that sort of rough correlation between the value of property is a product of income, which then relates to borrowing power, which Dane relates to hash values and and what happened in spine and in all and in the the the GMC or. Pre JC. Interest writing. Now's markets were unbelievably law. Credit Assessment and assessment rights may borrowing Powell a wall. And easy access to credit. Easy access to credit and that led to a building boom and a thriving economy which all ended in tease because. It was on justifiable and and it was on unmonitored by not only the the the state based and the country regulations but also. The risk regulators such as the Moody's and the writing agencies were also asleep at the wheel of time. So I think it is about understanding that. Yes. Should we benchmarking ourselves against other economies? Not so not so much in the property spice I mean, you can get that alignment but what what's more important it? Is as around sign, we do enjoy a very, very high minimum wage and with that comes a high cost of living because any type Ross is ultimately determined by demand and supply, and so if something easing limited supply, but in high demand and ultimately you're gonNA say across appreciation in that area and that's what we see in the Australian market. So I guess to that point that for us to admit that there is nothing inherently different about strident from other countries we cannot admit that. Knocked it was difficult B. B. but what we can admit is that we we are certainly looking around the globe to see what Waugh's that was the foundation of causing the these people these these economies in these property Max to collapse so that we can be aware of what that looks like if you've got. If, you've got symptoms in Astrid of easy access to credit red flag if you've got symptoms. In Australia where unemployment is is screaming up red flag if you if you have symptoms where you're saying weapons of mass construction everywhere at been where this cranes everywhere this supply coming out of your Y zoo. That is a red flag now. trae tree examples. The only one that we you'd have at the moment watching sees the unemployment right given the the expect prevent that we're going through right now and in in unpacking that in having multiple experts on an podcast been not just voice. Allies Owen is a representative of millennial generation and she was with us a couple of. A couple of weeks ago. There is nothing to suggest. Actually I'll rephrase that. The concentration of the unemployment challenge was specific demographic younger strident who typically in the renting spice at this point in time. Versus. Versus wholesale challenges in a demographic afflicts who go home mortgages or whatever. I guess the unemployment flag is not something that we're ignoring It's in fact that we've were cute monitoring but the conditions that would suggest that the property market is running away from us on their in mass other than all Woodside, the lack of stock wrought now. Is. From someone who's on the ground with a team of people. That is that is challenging. That's chilling. It's playing a role in why what we what we predicted in back in July Avoiding Ivory Chip Yep. That property prices will will probably be across Australia increasing the end of this year, and that's looking to even more than likely occur at the end of this month all at the very least November is. Where we will say reports coming out that probably process the now growing in every capital city in the country and every rate in a end generally speaking. The composition of regional areas and and that to us has been. A product of that low supply. So it's not it's not a given then it's caught. `Blanche everything's GonNa fly because we still do have some of those headwinds around what's going to happen with deferrals, line deferrals, and and and lock by much slept. So the strategy has been to move from a cliff to push it to a match slugged, and then ultimately to probably Mike it into a sandhill sorry people can step off it you know and that that has been the strategy because the consequences all by collapsing housing market have fought deeper ramifications to to the broader economy and. The regulators and the smartest people in the room are acutely aware of that and I will do everything possible to not thrive the economy at the property market in the event that I want to say that that Gardanne so. That will be damaged been some people will be affected for people will have the lines, cody and some people, but it's not as if the people we've spoken about this before it's not as if everyone's done all these hard work to get us to March and then the guy's not working let's just let's just let's just let it collapse. It's as you say, kick it down the kick the can down the road I will that will continue to make that a priority. So so therefore, on that question, there is inherent differences about Astrid from other places and what I'll also remind is the the DNA. The first principles of this podcast is that there are multiple markets wrought so. Middle Atta ten house apartment houses. There is so much disparity around what were even talking about as appropriate he is. So clearly asset selection is is critical but just being aware that. Trying. It's almost like trying to compare with the Lebron's better than Jordan. It's difficult because the their assignment look clearly thinking. For the. But it's so hard. 'cause even even if you think about the plight is being before you inaudible been, it's very very difficult to compare different scenarios and get them to be apples with apples. So so therefore, all would caution anyone who's listening to this podcast to just be aware the conditions and we just hinted of those about five minutes. Of what it is that you should be concerned about so that you don't have to be worried about. The people who went through those things. You know I've actually looked someone the Aubin in our office who went through the. Property crash and are sold the pine and he's always and I saw the look in his eyes when always talking to him saying, Hey, listen don't necessarily think that we're going to go through that he a-. and. It wasn't until we stopped unpack some of the stuff we've been chatting about because the pine was date the pine was real and what that person went through was a harrowing experience for them. So again, not to belittle what what's actually happen but be aware of the conditions that caused that rather than having to. Fear without any biases correct I probably just to summarize the the bays versus the Bulls in the spice 'cause the bays getting as per You know ALC- client who? was writing a lot of the bear. Analysis you know the changing their tune from this is gonNA be thirty, forty percent property process crash to well maybe it's going to not be as bad and not even get to ten percent. But that's all because the government in I lock the government stepped in and saved everyone well. I think this is an important message. Government jobs. is to provide for its people and part of that east to grow the economy. and so their their job is to do whatever I can do to help the economy grow. The reason they're in government is way expect them to improve living standards. We expect them to have law and order we expect them to give us opportunities for prosperity and to leave the loft that we wanNA leave. That's their job. Now, when I see elements of the economy that have a flow on effect. Sixty percent of consumption through wealth effect and the property market in order stop things by will do everything they can to protect any distabilise ing elements. That might impact the broader economy and property is at the front and center that conversation. So that's when bras signed before to defile. That's what you've got to understand that the government understands that end all of the powers that be from the RBI insightful, Diane? Disdain. Because we have to look too far in terms of when probably Ross collapsed and marketplace's collapse economy's going to deep recessions all Ya Ostlund is spine. Parts of America, just. Yet. How do everything they can so just be mindful of that that all it's only because the government came to the rescue might but but that is something that you need to understand. They're not gonNA come to individual persons rescued. So don't just think that that's caught blanche but more broadly speaking they are not gonNa let the property market file because there is too much at stake and been the fallen one there is is fourth point was admit the risk of Japanese lost decade drop in consumption and birthrights Kohl's boy. Levels of, household it. I. Guess. We've had looked at the population growth in that particular country and it's been minimal been sexually almost a case study of because I had some challenges clearly in the nominees and the why the triggers that they had to pull out of that an increase, the consumption where there because there was no people sort of moving into that country. Demont. So they let had those long periods of Tom where that economy has actually been struggling. So I. Think it actually applies at two going back to the first point around. This is a case study of what happens. If you don cry, you'll population vice because then you don't have that multiple are you've talked about on many occasions where someone landing he's going to spend he. Do the housing and to to consume to fill the house full of goods. It's actually it's actually a perfect illustration of what happens. y'All I mean I'll be very generalized here in terms of quickey street Japan, right but obviously after the Second World War there cities their industries were decimated by the war and die were able to retool and become a technology later and that bud incredibly well. Full. FOR THE POPULATION In terms of are over the decades of the sixty seventy S I and become a later in a lot of areas and men have put their day and I rode across best practices on a lot of things. Car Industries Technologies all of our subsidies brilliant stuff. They're aging population however. has been a catalyst for less consumption because as I retired that less money to spend in the economy and they, they they belief ing immigration, they don't want across multicultural society they. For whatever reason, they're very proud of the the culture and the people that I also They don't have a lot of immigration into the country and because of the I ching population and also you got to remember to daintily populated you know to all and dropped. So start from that point of view. That's. Turkey. Has the population of strider in it correct yeah. So single person per meter and all of that is ridiculous over there. So so that's the that's the the constructive how they were Connie's working. Compare that to Australia where we have a truckload of land. We have. Certainly. Less deigned city. And we have a multicultural society that is served US brilliantly well on the hull that that and will continue to do so You know with the people embracing multiculturalism, then our prosperity and our outlook. Looks. Amazing. I was shown meeting long term. So that's for the people who are already here. So long as I put in and give effort nap put and contribute but also for those people coming here because I, say it is an amazing opportunity to transform laws will that sort of thing happening? So, yes. Probably processing in Japan have stagnated in some of the rural areas they've gone backwards because there is no economic output. obviously they wijers growth, put pressure on their competitiveness in terms of the goods that I solved. 'cause you know the the Arnie's you back in history and you look at some of the technology of our releasing in the sixties that was saying that shape? Jack. Japanese. Junk Rot and then I got better and better and better than all of a sudden Japan was known as quality technology, and then it was shape Tallin when as junk. Now Taiwan is a really good nine for high quality in terms of the. Televisions in you know the stuff that they're putting out there and they're now it's the Giannis knockoffs and all of that. You, do guys through cycles in terms of end. When you do go through those cycles, you are lifting your people out of now lower levels of standard of living into high levels, standard of living, which was saying what's happening in Jonah, and that's that's great for that middle class that the they're going to have these. Century of prosperity. Rod a you know where? They are well positioned with hassle disposable income and consumption and internal consumption that they're going to have a prosperous time. But you also they look at America and you say that you know that the rust belt of America that Wisconsin all of those areas which are really challenged bought effect that the industry and things have moved on from them and their competitiveness is now being lost inside they've lost industry lost jobs and and that is a product of pressure on on those particular economies in process and probably processing those areas. So we still need not rest on our laurels here in Australia. We absolutely need to make sure that we that Melbourne and Sydney continue to be financial capitals knowledge centers. Centers of excellence. And hopefully broadening those out. So you Queensland in Brisbane Allied that's that's the that's the flow over the decades that you get and with that you've probably got a really good story as as Bernard Sultan, and you've advocated bras these that. This will be a terrific I'd where post pandemic will will start to say some some real joy counting into an and another prosperous period after this fine nation, the roaring twenties again bent so they so from two genesis. Speaking to I abroad community but clearly trying to address a millennial question. That is al that is out response to those query cy I guess we an open been on on any level full millennials to come back to us. One on suggests you do is send us an email info at the property capsule comes at you. If you're a millennial and you have any further information that you'd like us to dissect on your behalf, we would love to do that because. We do want to be a representative of a prosperous country that includes baby boomers acids. millennials. You know we've got kids the same age been. So we clearly go on. Them as well. So we would love to say where you think we hit the mark where you think we didn't hit the mark, but we are well and truly free back. So send us an email info at the property catch doc comes right so that we can refer to that in upcoming episode been. And one final tyco eyebrows because I do want clear tyco Eiffel for from from Wairoa seed and that is. Douglas into the macro. Di Di di dont get caught up in the great divide of Bad Australian property you're not bind destroying property market. You're buying one property in one straight in one suburb, a one localized Goblin area in one town or one city. So if you are interested in getting on the property ladder as a millennial, then the expectation that we put on you feet to help to hold yourself accountable is to do the research on looking at the demand and supply in that area and You can do that through. Dada. You can also do that through getting out there and going to wipe in himes and understanding the interest off in the marketplace, lining up your lending and doing what is right for you are done. Listened to that external noise because a guy comes back to you you on your journey and sitting your personal goals and financial goals, and if property is a part of that story and you're in a position where you can you think that you can. Execute on that Don White to save a twenty percents deposit property process of moving quicker in the area that that they're that you'll looking to this could be an opportunity for what sit on the sidelines. Yourself set up yourself for five year plan or whatever it is to allow you to get into the market. But the so that he's Taika why we've gone global thirty thousand foot view but we now come down to the actionable autumn's for each of you and that is your story. And your opportunity is to to see you to hold yourself accountable to yourself around what you're. You're planning to do the research I'm looking at the current demand future supply and you'll you'll be sort of well served in that either next far to ten years if you take action. Absolutely. Ben In the tip from as if you're a millennial in Melbourne, a ball hostage along Bachelorette will bendigo at, do do the odds there and then creep becky and you lost pretty good if you're in Sydney out of the central coast. Down to the Shar you're in. If you're in Brisbane, bought a house on the Gulf coast visit off Donna myself commuted from Romania to Brisbane of done it for a whole year. So it didn't do not buy into the maith. The millennials cannot buy real estate is not true. It is it is challenging if you want to be in the hot of a big city of Melbourne and Sydney Nar Question Gotcha absolutely understand but do not let go of the dream to Bob Property based on some of the Some of the headlines that you saying because I can tell you from Ben and perspective from advantage point we say schools. Scores of millennials actually getting on the property last hour we wanna we want to encourage you and but you might look at Saudi square if you live in Melbourne and Sydney but you. You can circle back and comeback. If you're prepared because the mortgage is lower in those locations, you can then build up the equity quicker, and then you can use that as leverage to move closer and closer and before you know it. You based on that dedicated path and some discipline you will live in the suburb of your dreams because you prepare to show up when it matters any prepared to invest in yourself when you prepared to do hard thinks. Because then if you do those things, you will get the rewards for that side. Again, I don't WanNA throw it out to anyone who wants to give us some feedback info at the property capsule comes. We will. Look to answer your questions and we appreciate the feedback that we get from clients Ben, which started this podcast very bright to come inside say that very bribe to actually give us some feedback so that we can actually address it and I think a hope that's been of benefit to the entire community. High Model affected I been is is an extension from last week we had Joe Wilson regarding relationships talked about the relationship rules. One of the things that that I've tried and tested is a Tim Ferriss hack where he gets together with his girlfriend and they go on a diet and as part of that, they ask for questions I've done this now a couple of homes with Milwau-, and it works wonderfully well because the we do know that the secret to a right relationship is to increase communication the better you communicate the better your relationship it's it's. It's weird. How do you get that strategy to land tactically is often the question because you've got, you've got to communicate with my Partner Sans Easy on Piper but then you know when you're trying to actually open up the dollar, what do you do? So they four questions number one. Ask these four questions on a number one what they think they've been doing well doing. So also, this is what I think blah. Blah Blah. And the second question is way too I. think that have dropped. The ball could focus more and I'll say this here that here. So it's actually allowing me to take the winds and the critique, the training aids, but then payments the other post, which is always a tricky. Scenario, to give feedback to someone else Ben. So all of the way that team does this he goes number three tell the other posts and what doing well. So that's that's not an easy but the fourth one is this is this is what I think you should do. Is Not. GonNa fly rob particularly without Connie Wizar-. So the fourth question is what I'd love to see more of Raw. So it's actually allowing the person to have dignity and not putting him on the nine nine. Getting the shift. So Tim Ferriss is full questions. Oscar. Number one I think that'd be doing well, doing better number two. They think they've dropped the bowl or could focus more number three with the other person is doing now well, number four what I'd love to see more of of charter couple Tom's Bennett's working trait and carriage with. John, what's making property news? Might what Nike Property News while I'll start with the economy because that's obviously what we're talking about at the Reserve Bank Disney Governor Galway. Bros has declared a mistrial is typically out of recession. Oh. Yep He believes that the slower Dan, all the shutdown in Victoria Done. And sorry it hasn't been as bad as I. I. Thought Sorry that I believe that they will be I positive garage number in. Jd Pay. For the September. Be Number but it will be impulsive, and obviously if you're in positive that means the you'll to negative quarters of. Negative economic growth of finished which means backing growth year out of recession we start another turning on us from human correct I delete that would be That would be. On the other funds story that saw reported on was about the narrowest home in London Bros on with the court story or deny but the narrow timing London and this is how this is how why did his boss? One Point six seven meters wide. Shoulder may so okay. So you so you wrote. The story guys on which is reported in the some Piper over there and picked up the guy through news dot com that I you here. Is that in some places you can't law I. Don't handle you cut down to 'cause now. So this is in London rotten as a pitcher on it. Very cool little. It's an incredibly looking little price. Now it's it's a couple of stories toll. What are you? Can I property that's one point six, seven meters wide bras would be selling for in downtown London. what don't my fair is it? Well. Let me let me give you a clue that the price. is in the millions on no doubt that that's nice surprise. I don the answer because I'd be I'd be shooting in the wind, but clearly it's a it's a there's a teaching moment here for the point that we talked about. Before that if you want to have a one point, six, seven, million, dollar, one point, six Mehta. Exorbitant mortgage this. Industry terms the asking price currently is one million. Eight hundred and one thousand dollars Scheinin knowing hundred, ninety, five, thousand Quique. God? We'll put a leak in China can check it out. It's It's incredible. It's got some fixing terms. It's little Dick back it's a little Sun Room but yet. So you you're basically going to be dropping one point eight million on strike in dollar terms if you want to have this narrowest house in London. Mesler context around what money's being spent in the city's isn't it been compared to when we think it's expensive here in Australia. We'll thank you for that upper show that we've covered a fair bit tonight been on on super hopeful that that has added value to every person in community. And particularly said before to genetics is talking to millennials we hope we've hit the mark, but we certainly encourage feedback mind. Until next week. Knowledge is impairing broths but I if you McDonald's or if I've seen. Folks Price Hall before you go if you're new to our community and only listened to maybe a handful of episodes, I thoroughly recommend that you go all the way back to episode number one where we unpacked all of the foundations when it comes to property investing for those of you that might be a little bit Tom Poor, good good news for you. We have a binge God. You can download straightaway, which summarizes the first twenty episodes Benoy, unpack the foundational pillars of the ABC and so much more, and you can get that straight away. If you go to the property catch, they'll come. Forward Slash TPC, twenty you can download it and consume it whenever you want. It's completely free and available now. For those of you just a quick reminder that nothing we've spoken about today constitutes financial advice. We recommend that you reach out to you a licensed professional advisor so that you can look at your unique circumstances before. Any information don't forget. Go to the probably catch congre forward slash Tapley seat twenty digital. Tonight.

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Hidden histories of Chinese Australia

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50:21 min | 1 year ago

Hidden histories of Chinese Australia

"This is an ABC podcast. Tim Watts is a member of parliament. For the seat of Jelly brand in Melbourne's western suburbs CBS. That's one of the most multicultural areas of Australia. Whenever team attends a citizenship ceremony on strike? Today he needs electorate he struck by the myriad of places that the new citizens have come from and he says some so happy to have found sanctuary in Australia for their families that they actually weep with relief leaf during the ceremony to what's comes from an old old Anglo-australian family his ancestors were country people from the dominant. Dan's in Queensland is land and from Victoria will some served as members of the colonial parliaments and Tim grew up hearing the family folklore he got Bush poetry free and he fell in love with that all destroyed at its myths and legends. But he's since realized that some of these ancestors who went into public life did everything they it could to make sure that his wife and kids today could never be astrid. INS- Tim says Australian still live with a powerful contradiction between the way. We are the way we live today and the stories that we tell ourselves about who we are and design family personifies this contradiction. What's has written a very thoughtful book about strata then now and it's called the Golden Country Australia's changing identity? Hello Tim great to be with you. You grow up in in the darling downs of Queensland. Just just how much will you kind of inculcated with the oldest reading culture. I was waiting on it My father there is An agricultural engineer and that necess- decided to a lot of traveling on school holidays. You know we'd travel to agricultural properties building dams and fade lots and piggeries in those things and those car trips were quite long ones in countries dryer. I'm she'll illicit familiar with the family right. There are an opportunity with a captive audience prince to pass down trapped in the cloud. Essentially many memories of being stuck in the back of a station wagon wheel L.. Derives that of sweating in the backseat. While that said you know at least is the property way. You're great great. Great grandfather was a pastoralist. Oh this was. The Property Way and sisters was at least it to guide a polio. Was One of the first Qantas pilot's. Astronomy and legend has really waned on really waned on the idea that I was a part of that Australian collegians that my ancestors were part of this pioneering idea of starting a country again in Australia so when I heard about those the Australian legends tonight values of Egalitarian is a might ship the guy that I really appeal to me. I felt like this is part of who I was. I grew up really loving the idea of Australia. I grew up with parents like that. Dead from country Victoria mom from countries have the strong values Galateri Newsham. You know you don't get tickets on yourself all that stuff the thing. I really liked the humor in the storytelling. Did you get plenty of that as womb. Absolutely I can remember listening to macaroni mistrial driving around scrubbing the exit coal in with some quite bizarre stories from the towns but two cats and a dog and I swear it's true type things. Send them as a kid. It all sounds real. You know it's unbelievable and you know we you'd pull up at a campground and I said I love the -Tarian Manas of Australia now. You APLOMB campground near you. Start a conversation with the people in the tent next year in the Connex you and your yawning refugees and a barbecue with people you've never met before it's it's magic. It's really special. Did you get the Bush poetry as well. I loved it in fact when I was having my first extended period away from Australia living in the US studying over there in the freezing cold snow of a North American winter remember trudging back to my student accommodation and reciting Banjo Paterson any from right clancy. I've written him a letter which I had for want of better knowledge to him just on SPEC. So that's your family. That's your family. I'm angry brought up with all that the values of all destroy idea to me what you learned about your ancestors John Watts because he was spoken of quite a bit and John was a really really significant person in my family. When I grow up we always had a portrait of with is fantastic? White flowing. Did that would not be at a place in my hips during the city today and he was significant because we had a copy of his daughters so we could pick up his doors and raid what. He's experiences of Australia alike in the sort. The adding fifty sixty s all the way through the ninety S. So you that kind of firsthand connection that we could read and that was really special particularly to my father and my uncle who have republish publish them for the bicentenary kind of story of Australia was he telling in his diaries. It's the old story of Australia. Say He talks explicitly about the colonialist braid and scituate him Listen of head of steel rod unite the Great Stylianos Ortho selection selection. Dad and Dave well steel rod was born in the area of coins and that my ancestors represented while he was the member of parliament. Dr Is tell the story of of Anglo settlement of Australia from Very Taranaki perspective. In his mind there was nothing of any worth in his try when he arrived. And he's Dr is aimed with this sort of statement of you know when I left Brisbane was a thriving metropolis type thing thing but it was a very narrow perspective of Austria was and could that uncomplicated. Love you head for strata as a young did they get a bit more complicated as you got. Good old yeah. The uncomplicated. Love Change when I started to say that those against Teheran values that I loved so much weren't extended to everyone in society so obviously Veasley two women indigenous Australians migrants and you talk about the stories we tell. It's interesting. The stories that John Watts tells in his Dari sort of allied relied a lot of the the DACA parts of that history. So just stick around it. Yeah they stick. Suppose you forget it pretending it didn't happen you know I like I. I know that John Watts wine. Heroes empowerment sat on a parliamentary inquiry into the conduct of the coins. Ninety police now. This is a sort of paramilitary force that existed in Quainton and was responsible for countless massacres and in the hand side talking about that John. Watts says that look the the police they did some things. It went very pretty but probably better than just letting the pastoralists go at it themselves that would be even uglier and at the end of that. I I think that direct quite as win eight to take the blacks the mastery the watts through the power of the Cobb on now that a piece in the Hansa but it doesn't appear in the dollars that he handed down to his future generations. That's something a Nazi would right. That's that's an extraordinary thing to say we had to send in the. It's it's horrifying and and that kind of thing gives you a direct connection with with the they atrocities the injustices that were committed against indigenous. Australians so I felt that really acutely that's a jarring thing you know these things that you arise with these things that were fundamental not all of a sudden you stop viewing them through different prison. So what do you want to do when you see something like that you just want to throw it away or or interrogated a bit hotter. What I mean what? What can you read something An ancestor saying something like that. The instinctive action from my parents. I think he's pretended happen to to sort of sweep it under the carpet. It's sort of the great right forgetting in historical circles for me. I I mean I think those amendments that are really worth delving into because they show the potential for us has a papal as and as a nation to change. We've grown. Since those days there is still extraordinary injustice and I say that the gap between indigenous Australia and and the rest of the country In terms of outcomes on health and education and crime all the time in my day job. It's it's horrific and it's ongoing but in attitudes we we've come an extraordinary. Why lost two years where we're Greta country now than we were back? Then you had another sister Charles Netease. He's nine was to me about him Charles. And he's one of those great pioneering stories so he was a nineteen year old on the first floor out to South Australia. And it's it's actually a famous historical incident that involved at Charles Nancy's when they came around into what is now South Australia. The original intent was to have the settlement settlement on Kangaroo Island. Not Not an Adelaide. And they've they found kangaroo all and my nineteen year old ancestor commits the captain and and sort of ten other ship. Might say we've been on the ship for however many months destroyed legs. Let us off. We want to have a Gallup on kangaroo island because people had told them the kangaroo was quite a nice place hospitable liberal place where you can have a settlement unfortunately for those who can't crew all it's not like that loss for ten days. Two of them died. Charles Nancy's was left for dead on a beach and he was lucky enough that the surviving members of his party continued on the found the ship and sent them back cream side aside. I rescued him. which is probably a good thing for my family lawn as oppose so then he settled in Geelong in Victoria after that and what became of once he settled there? Yes I not. Nancy's reinvent. Invented himself in in Geelong as a businessman was a member of the first Geelong City Council. But the thing that really interested May in his legacy was that he was also a member of the local anti-chinese Lake. Now these are a common community organization that was set up during the gold. Rush era with the intent of pressuring government and agitating public opinion with the objective of driving the local Chinese community out of his dry and the gold rush era. The proportion of the Australian community who were born in China is about what it as today about what it is tonight and wide but this was the interaction between the watch the Anglos on the Gulf fields and the Chinese trigger a lot of Of Flay back a lot of conflict. So what was the upshot of this had had they actually succeeded in stopping. Chinese Goldman is from coming to Victoria. So I've got a copy of a petition that anti-chinese Lake that Charles Manson Umbro presented to the Victorian Parliament and the objective of this petition was the the crash of a poll all tax. This is a a charge on every Chinese arrival in Port in Victoria quite extortionate charge. That intent wasn't that it would be paid. The intent was that it made it impossible impossible for Chinese arrivals to disembark and these triggered a quite extraordinary event. The ships coming from China didn't stop but continued around the coast outside Victorian jurisdiction addiction to the nearest port. Outside Victoria and that was the seaside ten of robe now in Robe. Iran seventeen thousand Chinese migrants would dump their and. They walked the five hundred kilometers from Roy. To the Gulf fields. In in Bendigo Ballarat walked five hundred kilometers brought all that y a quite harrowing walk on. There's there's a lot of history what we know about that event right now and you can recreate the walk as many people from the Chinese community do and so. This is the thing amongst the Chinese Australian community. It's remembered and all of the it's a very well. Nine event and the China's drank community and families recreate this for historical events for anniversaries. Things like that and there are places you can stop along the way of significance so your ancestor Charles. Netease was one of the people sending that petition to the colonial government to prevent the Chinese from landing. Today you your family family. Currently your your wife was born in Hong Kong Eurasian kids understand why Porn- Singapore I've Eurasian kids as well. What does that do to you? The thought that you have an ancestor who wanted to create a straightaway. Your family would never be possible. Never be possible and your kids couldn't Australians. But what does that do to you. That thought near. Yeah this is like an each in the back of my mind as we were talking about earlier I felt is really strong connection with plice with the Stri around with the idea of Australia as a kid growing up as kids became old enough for me to entrap them in the back of sates for long family road. Trips it's dodd. Distract me that they are experience it so as far as history industry is reality. Today would be different to my mind so that that's something that I really wanted to explore as a member of parliament as an elected later. Something I wanted shei-pa as well I mean it's a troubling for. It must have put you back on your feet. I mean I have the benefit of knowing much about what my ancestors I just thought. I know I had a grandfather who was a member this tonight association which was Australia for Australians and that often meant no not poems as well well that was that was the attitude lodge at the time but that may strike you for a strident So I just wonder how personally distressing it is few tonight that I suppose I'll have that conversation with my kids when they're old enough. The wind direction solid as saying earlier. I mean I think that it really presents an optimistic story united. Well it really shows how far we've come as a society as a as a nation that had the the the anti Chinese league's The idea of Australia for the white man which was the strap line of the bulletin published Gripe Poems by Henry Lawson and Banjo Sanjay Patterson that we've transcended that conceptually. I spent on the one hand. One of the mistakes you can have with. History is to shout at the past from the twenty first a century and say that's all bio moral standards digest clearly file to to meet our moral standards of today. Still even saw Dr. Yeah it's still troubling to to to to see something like that I mean. These views went uncommon at the time. Like I say so. So why was the feeling against Chinese migrants so strong at that time to sink crepe such petitions to to do that kind of thing so there are a few things in the water at the time one one of them. Was this sort of Nice. An attempt to build an Australian identity like how we different from the field. How we different from from the English as as you said alias so you had to say tried if association the Bush poets? These people are engaged in the symbolic nation-building Australia and I had a really strong idea about what they wanted Australia to be and it was really the image of Russel Ward. Famous historian talks about the agent. This idea that what may destroy a unique where the experiences nces of people working on the land in the face of extremely challenging conditions in isolation up against Mother Nature Gotcha and the view. was that this credit a band of people that sort of through hierarchy at the window egalitarian. ISM and might ship something. It was born from Dr Swaggie hanging around and needing to band together to survive in this this hostile environment and you can see them responding to the majesty of the strata to country like this really struck by the beauty and that this is not this is not Scotland and that was a reflex reaction against British. The British. Show these trying Bouma horrified like this uses a hacking anyone survive in this country and you know try and patriots so the these try and Bush and said this is the country we love. We see the beauty in your. We were raised in so so. Isn't that kind of mid nineteenth century period. People trying to say what this is what it means to be Australian Egalitarian. You might ship the FIG irreverence resilience practicality you know all these audie is about a man the land and to define the edges to contrast that with the other with with the Brits. We needed to create a stereotypical. I'm fortunately the presence of the Chinese and the Goldfields gave us that other. You know we could. We could talk. Cost the the Chinese is being served as being slaves as being physically wake as being morally corrupted and you see these sort of engine that was defining a strident positive terms. Also being used to talk cost and negatively stereotype the Chinese President Society. So are you saying that in order to say we. Australians this we needed to say we are not that the Chinese essentially as we were building up our national identity. That's exactly right and it wasn't a coincidence. You know you saw events that were that were manufactured factored by by political leaders and by Rod as and by groups like the Strand note of association in order to highlight this. There was some really amazing aspects to that that that character that identity the the idea of materialism and it's often brought up in it and it it doesn't diminish over time and how Brennan Australians were in the prisoner walk camps in Thailand in the mobile. I really get irritated. Some people sorta like to say again. I there's no such thing as Australian identity or Australian values elect look fundamentally we're all humans and we share that that common humanity and there's not much that really differentiates itself in in essence but in these values they have power in and in the most extreme circumstances strands latch onto them. So in the prisoner of war camps we've seen anthropological studies that show the different ways that Australians liens behind the more collectivist Damore Galateri unwise compared to you know say the yanked so the poems like these values this Australian culture. The identity has value early as power was said to be and it was very blakey culture and yet at the same time it was a culture where women won the vote. Early I in a second to New Zealand's I I mean we women won the vote earlier than just about anywhere else in the world so there was that as well. So there's a kind of complex identity there isn't the absolutely The in that period before the I will there was this unique Australian identity of radical Galateri. Newsham the heroes of Australian suffrage vehicles stain in Dora Mason mural matters that went across to the kind lectured the mother country. I said you gotta get with The Times. It was an extraordinarily bald bald confident articulation of that radical a gala -Tarian Strand identity. This kind of madness that goes into this. It'll be knotted century nineteenth century caricatures about the Chinese other. That was over there on the one hand. As you cited spirit the spiritually degenerates and physically weak and yet they're threat. was that if a reconcile that idea that the the yellow peril was such a threatened at the same time. These these physical specimens supposedly so inferior to the the Ozzie Bush mile. Yes I the way that that was rationalize was she volume. Russia was that there were so many people to to north and just like oh one. One month's population increase in China would flood Australia's Ias I e the Bas fear of science fiction writing all my stabat rights for and Astrid that coming through that period and they all focus on the sheer volume of people that come in Nice dynamics the these Hoti bushman would Bush. And you know he'd install instead of survive off the land and the gorilla will all against inferior but a high in volume numbers of invite is. How much does parole Charles Down to take the blame for this to celebrate because Parole Charleena when he comes up with these theory of evolution this led to this kind of nineteenth century thing that was really rife throughout the Western world this idea of Social Darwinism that there was such a thing as rice which been scientifically Notre Trey? There's idea of rice and were in this struggle for supremacy. This ambitious with Nazism comes from. It's where some of the politics of the nineteenth century come from his. This idea that there's distressed rural is a strenuous Basel that unusual since for that town We were unlucky. And I say that because when these sort of social dominance the idea came along it had a special intrigue for strains because we convinced ourselves at the time thanks to some pretty influential books written that not not only were way this at a vanguard of the white British rice but we'd been hardened by the conditions of the Australian Bush to in some ways produce a super rice. All right right several Ted. I charged strike. I mean we we were. We were even better than the British. Then we'd been absolutely been conditioned by the Bush and the Blue Sky in the sunshine and all of that to be stronger hardier individuals absolutely and there's a book by Charles Peace and it was very popular at the time that that argued that the whites in Europe had become weakened by living in these horrible industrial CDs and had no exposure to the land and that Australia was sort of the vanguard of of of the white rice listen. These went fringe views in the debate about the immigration restriction act in the Commonwealth parliament the predecessor to the whitest riot policy the legislative foundation for it strikes. Prime Minister held a copy of that book while he was speaking directly from it. So these are central to the thinking at the time and get and yet and yet and yet there was another school of thought in a strike back in this time and this is what you get the title of your book from the Golden Country To tell me about the origins of that that that title yes so there was always this sort of counter strike the thinking that a strike could be applied. Swear not only start a country a new. But it's sort of the best of the world could come together and to sort of blind mixed together and create something new and even more more and more successful and So the the the title of the book. The golden country comes from an article in the Edinburgh. blackwoods digest. It's a book. Look at the time that talked about the potential for a Golden Australia to image the Goldfields through essentially rice mixing. Now that was a peculiar thing and as issue Salia. Rice isn't really a thing right so I'm not trying to climb any racial determinism from taking that title but the idea that a strike could be a place where the best in the world comes together and blames and produces something new and wonderful. That's an idea of Australia. That really captured me happened minutes. What happened in the end is into marriage Australia? This is the thing. That's under good at multiculturalism all the time. So it's did you see that as a kind of a prophetic statement about the strike that was kind of overlooked largely at the time. Yeah that's interesting. I mean is giants have had this very practical approach to multiculturalism Donald Horne rats better as the sixties in countries. Such as strange just by just manage on the local community with with different with new people and they sort of get to know them and continue on Ron and I I say every mile electric you know what I mean. The the success Austrian multiculturalism happens in APP communities. And you look at the job outcomes. The why Jack comes a community. Attitudes modern attitudes migrants report being happier then people born in Australia extraordinary achievement. You know like we can be proud of that like it. It's not. He's not untrue side that his trial. He's an incredible multicultural. Success Story there are caveats but fundamentally very successful still in the end of the nineteenth century pushing ahead become a federated nation colonies going to join up to become a federated astray. How was this fear of? The yellow peril of the Chinese used to drive federation has become an engine of federation team. Yeah Yeah So. The Pre Federation era politicians. They used it as a rallying cry they used it as a reason for federation you think about people like Henry pox that would that would manufacture these panics. Over the potential for an for invasion from from the north the desire to have a unified immigration policy unified defense. This policy was really animated by the threat from the north and this was seen as an imperative full federation so you look at the big figures of the time like Alfred Dakin is explicit. He says that there was no factor. That was a great motivator for the federation than the desire to preserve. What is true what Australia was was? What did the colonial colonial office in Britain made this desire to make a water strider? Yeah the colonial office by necessity needed to have a broader view because the British pretty shedding trysts around the globe and as a result of some pays treaties negotiated particularly with the Chinese they had commitments around the world to copen access to ports within the British Empire so they went very impressed with these upshot Australian colonists saying we want to have a rational racially really exclusionary policy governing entry to this country because it's inconsistent with their trail so there's colonial office in London was telling Australia dunk us so hard on what Australia and it was a constant constant source of friction and something that Clio politicians grandstanding public and I said all the Brits. They don't understand what we're up against you. And what kind of threats will Sir Samuel Griffith who is one of the architects of these strong constitutional. Another great jurists. Who when he was the Queensland Premier threatened and that if the if the client didn't get with the program astray would guy the why of the United States and violent revolution Samuel Griffith said if we don't if the colonial office doesn't let us have white Australia then we might rebel like the United States and become an independent nation? And this is a black who has as I could constitute a conservative constitutional society named after him today podcast broadcast and online. This is conversations with Richard Fidler on on. ABC Radio When you get to the establishment of the first federal parliament's it mates in whatnot in one go thereabouts? That's how much of a priority was Australia for that parliament while it was the number one priority after that the federation parliament got done with the sort of the administrative things that I needed to do with setting up a country setting customs rights and things like that the first issue of What Edmund Barton has prime minister described as high policy that was divided? The Federation parliament was a bill called the immigration restriction. Act that way now is the widest. Try a policy and this was an extraordinary to bite the hand side for this divide runs funds for hundreds of pages eighty nine members of parliament that spoke in the debate including five future prime ministers and when you read that Tobias Listen to twenty. Th Century is the language of season that wouldn't be out of place in a white supremacist form on the Internet. Today it's not ugly stuff it's really it. Sounds like it's hundreds of pages of furious. Serious agreement now is red hot tonight. is debate between whether we should outright exclude people who went what does ban them. Or whether we should have a dictation taste that we could issue in any any European language we chose to effectively ban people. Now that was going back to the issue we talked about earlier with the the client's L. Office from the UK Thyroid Guy. With a dictation test. Because that's what the South Africans had in Natale and it was hard you blush and practice racial discrimination in effect without really appearing explicitly in the Legislation Billy Hughes who was in the Labor Party at the time at the time he jumped around a bit from this time Billy Hughes said we object to these people because of the vices and of their immorality and because of one hundred things which we can only hint at and and our objections are not to be met by the declaration that the imperial government will be embarrassed by them the provision in the bill. Would I admit keep out the end of an islander the low caste Hindu but they would not keep out the Japanese and I doubt they would exclude the Chinese. I do not think they would do anything more than shut out the very lowest lowest type of colored as attic. Now you have this kind of classic worry that the you know. We don't like them in their inferior but the Japanese and the Chinese one of the the. They've honestly be quite clever. And we we have to worry about that. Yeah well that that quite from Hughes goes straight to that controversy. I was talking about earlier whether we should just have an outright ban which I I think you can work out. That was what Hughes wanted. Or the dictation test which US worried that the you know the more clever Asian Rice's could get around some people like to argue that at the immigration restriction act was actually about rice. It wasn't racist. It was about preserving working conditions preserving a a unified body politic for democracy. Although that is the one of the reasons why those objections to having Chinese labourers was that they'd worked for lower wages than than what astrid is the time. Yeah absolutely lately but when you read. The text of what was actually Said said the leader of my party. The time Chris Watson a has an extended section where he talks about the evils of rice mixing marriage. That's not a library concern. It's not a democratic concern. It's something that's animated by racial prejudice but by discrimination but but that the fundamental animus stike that they tried as they thought that the Chinese were unchanging. That that if you weren't what there was something inherent in your denied. He just couldn't fit in Australia. That it was it it was a nonsense to talk about. Egalitarian Ism with people at went. What because I couldn't leave up to the same standards as us? I mean they had a different values. Different ideas different capabilities abilities and I would just fundamentally incompatible. The thing that I didn't realize is that the Chinese had arrived in Australia like every wave of migrants sits come since adapted opted adopted. Australian values wage changed them. They didn't change us. And there's this great quote from the Nineteen Thirties from Chinese Australian. Who's speaking to a delegation from China who was investigating human rights abuses? Frankly of of Chinese astrology now country Tom to back to China and the quite essentially chalet guys. You know the Chinese chain whenever they go if you drop them in the United States following the industrial example between become rampaging capitalists if you drop the Chinese in Singapore all in British Singapore following the example they they become contractors with designs on a knighthood. And if you drop a Chinese in Australia. They become library organizes sizes and agitators for the Working Man's paradise that's the reality of China's sprint star of the first Chinese mantra came as a carpenter and ended up as a Publican Publican in western Sydney. This goes way back. The sick and governor you southwest governor King was told by the client office. He would have to take Phoenix Irishman Shen as prisoners. These paint on right back a furious latest thing they will not fit in by con possibly fit in and of course a couple years later we write back to say. Actually it's worked at rather well-attended the tended if you give people a bit of land and a bit of liberty. They make a go of things and they and they said they've actually fitted into the life of the caller said. This is an ongoing thing underneath. It seems to be an anxiety that gee maybe we just feeble you know. Maybe Culture is feeble here in Australia that we possibly persuade someone else to change. I think that's right. You know it's a it's a fundamental the middle insecurity that we building something new here and that it's precious and that someone else might destroy it like I think it's precious but I think it's powerful and I like the idea that a gala terrorism. It's something I'm really confident in. And we have confidence of a century of migrants being drawn to it wanting to embrace it and exciting and thriving and has society tool that benefit when those colonial will win. Those I figure politicians are talking about what a strider and the Chinese Chinese migration. How did they talk about aboriginal today? They mentioned it in the same breath. They keep. Take care to keep those two compensation sip. Because of course you know why does trainings with the interlopers telepaths. And they're complaining about Chinese into Lopez Way. What's what's your reading on that? Yeah unfortunately that. The social dominance thinking led the latest of the time to join continuum from indigenous Australians through widest Riath to to agents the best example of this is billy Hughes who when giving a speech H. at the opening of all Parliament House explicitly says that White Australia has vanquished indigenous tribes from the continent. But if we're not careful about things you know the the yellow hold will come down and vanquish us. They viewed this in explicit terms of racial competition. You were talking about how the Gold Goldrush China's had been at that point been straightforward four decades five decades. By the time you get the start of the first World War and one of the agents we remember is the story of Simpson. These don't must must people know that story. But there's another story of an ends story about a man named billy seeing who was there what was historian hillbilly seeing being someone that every is strange and he was from sort of central northern Queensland around where Banjo Paterson Roy Waltzing Matilda actually and and billy was a kangaroo Suda. He was a driver he was a cane. Cutter is the opening fast Bowler for the prospect cricket club and you couldn't get any more strongly in the billy sing and and he arrived in In Gallipoli in the trenches and he was the sniper and he was extraordinarily successful. Extraordinarily decorated is credited with somewhere between two two hundred and three hundred kills which is a macabre metric but that was his profession. I'm here is very good at it. He was injured in Combat Multiple Times. He won the day. Zim He was lauded by all of his colleagues but he died in a porpoise gripe with nothing to his name. And I think the reason for that is because he as a Chinese Australian and so we're telling the story of Anzac. We know that Charles Bane who I think is an extraordinary strain and told the story of strength and Zack in a really strong and and why he put the individual soldiers I in his history didn't want to tell the sweeping story. Generals had this strategy or tactics or whatever. He's like John Smith from outside Ballard. Did this this battle. I was pretty radical thing to do an admirable. The problem is is that we know from Star says that he was also a white nationalist and he he viewed it explicitly as his duty. To perpetuate the idea of Australia He viewed it as an obligation for him to do that. Indeed in official histories of Anzac he rots astrid was at risk of racial suicide and less vigorous measures adopted so given that context. I I don't think it's a coincidence. That in in a in a official well history that names literally thousands of Australian soldiers by nine in the body text of that official history. Billy sing is not mentioned. The Charles Bring changes views on and and this is why I think Bain is such an extraordinary figure because he saw the areas of his wives during his lifetime After the first World War he saw that at the kind of the extreme end of this racial thinking in the late up to Nazism in World War Two and he had a Damascene conversion. He changed his mind. You realize whose is wrong. And he wrote a series of paces criticizing the whitest drive pulsing that Australia had to charge so in one sense I think Bain is extraordinary. Optimistic example of people's ability to grow and change. The problem was by that stage. She'd already written the official histories and he set in Stein. This view of Anzac. That's sort of still with us today. That doesn't reflect the reality that it actually was. So then we come to the mid sixties too late sixties and after Robert Menzies. This is gone harold. Halt Prime Minister dismantles. A large part of the whitest trade policy. Kind of Boston. Away doesn't really make much of announcement with govern gets elected they noisily dismantle what remains of it and proudly signed. They're there to put the Berry Wad strategy as as a policy. And that's done and yet with all that's what were we saying about a straighter. At the time. We'll be saying that we didn't need to change nonetheless with with having done that. An interesting thing that happened in that Whitlam. Tom Buried the whitest drive policy. allographs immigration minister literally said. Give me a shovel. A bear it but immigration it's still very low through that period And then through. Through the whole creating government Lee McGrath program was still oriented towards family reunion. It was still very Watt frankly in it in its composition. We rhetorically in the in the seventies abandoned whitest dry but we didn't say the product of that community for significant period of time. And any my book. I argued that we didn't really see it until how radically changed out. Migration System in the nineties changed when John Howard became prime minister so so how it changed how migration garage system in two important ways. Firstly he reoriented from a majority family reunion driven pemanent intake to a skills based in Tyke and Adelaide him to increase the size of it. So more people who are immediately productive in the economy could be brought in he also introduced a whole range of categories of temporary migrations temporary skilled migration working holiday visas student. Study vases those kinds of things now doing that. At the con of the early stages of a twenty eight year economic boom in his trial of twenty eight consecutive years of economic growth introducing an effectively a demand driven migration system Menton Australia's migration right was very high the last twenty years and this was really the first big boom in migration since the end of the white stripe policy. So that's I think it's a you and George Michael Janus vivid come on the show and not that one of the one of the greatest legacies of the Howard. Years was this gigantic king tide of migration because while that that might have happened widely migrant intake shifted to skills bison greatly increased. How does that? How does that sit with the story? John Howard was telling me about destroyed identity at the Taiwan on and here comes the paradox. So while Howard is radically diversifying Australia's demography population in his rhetoric. He was breaking ability. Ready to talk about it. And after a century of nation building in the image of water. Strider we really didn't need to talk about it but how he didn't just say we need to ignore it. He said it wasn't even an issue. He's quoted once saying there's no need for the perpetual symposium on Australian identity. Because quite a I know what an Australian es and always will be. He wasn't talking about indigenous. Australians he had this view of Australian identity as it was sort of carved in Stein by San Rocks passed on down to us via Charles Bane and Donald Bradman and that was it the fifties version of Astrid identity. Was it no more change. Sometimes I if you catch him in a weak moment he'll admit he's narrow and that stuff but but that Pasta's pretty quickly and then he'll go back to what he's been noise hang about. It's a pretty much well. I can't speak to whether he has had any personal challenges of of attitude on these issues. But what I can say is that he was very successful in prosecuting effectively. Cultural is on on rice and identity and our across multiple collections. And he kind of scared my politics of talking about it. So we went from this period in the mid nineties of Hawking Katie talking about changing identity quite extensively ably to a period where we've had more than two decades of viewing it. It's a third rail Australian politics at skirting around it not wanting to tackle it head on the the semi he got elected. Pauline Hanson got elected to the federal parliament met her famous speech. Who made the speech where she talked about Australia? Being endangered being swamped by Asians from from talking to a friend of mine about that tons I remember that as being the year where they were abused on public transport spat on. The Times wasn't a good year was was it now. It's certainly one that had a big impact on on. May My family. I two colleagues in parliament. I never forget that. The words for us in Parliament House will soon be in the mouths of bullies in school yards around the country. You know what we do in in politics but we do empowerment house filters down throughout society and Pauline Hanson injected. Something really ugly into that that that discourse in the nineties and it has direct personal impact on tens of thousands of Australians. Interestingly we had relatives Singaporean. Is it safe for agents to walk down the street now Now that some some even had this idea and they had. She was Prime Minister of Australia. And somehow that she was running the country and we also found this in the in India after after Indian students had been attacked was feeling. That's not safer Indian people to be in Australia as well. There seems to be like a real quickness to believe exaggerated like like. You know there's racism here and there's violence here but this readiness in the region to see us in that light. What what do you think of that? Tim What do you make of that. It's interesting aspect to dozens of Asian shrines rotting this book to try and get their their their view on this. And one of the people are speaking to is Timpson upon Assan. Who as Foam Racial Discrimination Commissioner? And he's decided that the thing that would drive him crazy. Joe was people were constantly asking him as a stray arises this country and it's a bit of a nonsensical question in the United States other countries. Going around having that compensation like yes. They're absolutely very varieties of racism in Australia and they really serious issues on the other hand. There are a whole range of areas where we do better questions of rice than other countries do type like everything post out. It's become this sort of culture war about are we or are we not racist but the reality is far more complex follow nuance when the United States to migration amid public opinion polls what I tell us about. How straightens feel about this this intense wave of migration? We've had to Australia. That's it's legit population to Griping increase into change. The the the nature of Australia quite quite substantially while way of always on the verge of putting on the sackcloth sloth on issues of bryce astray attitudes to migration rice are actually really exceptional internationally. Scanlon Foundation on has been looking at social cohesion. The industry for more than a decade The gold standard in social attitudes research in this space and have never found a response from the public on attitudes to multiculturalism some lower than the kind of meat. ID's and this is through all of the the blaster of politics on this issue like Australia's nonplussed. They comfortable with this with multiculturalism awesome by lock it the other staff that I think really stands out. And this is the Hugh Institute Did an international survey on this and they asked people in all kinds ons countries around the world. What is important to being truly from your country? So what does it. What is important to being truly Australian and they asked this in lots of different countries and Australia's? Here's about the lowest response. She can get to the question of is it important to be born here to be truly astray like we like half of the response to the US on that question the US right migrant country. We think it's less important than the Americans thing straight here. Is it racist. I think the the follow question is compared to what I've been in Europe bracingly and Europe doesn't just have pulling Hanson. It's parliament they have people who actually become elected as prime minister all leaders of their country on the basis of of racist policies. That's that's that's just that's just happening in a great many places in Europe right now. So so why. Why do you think NCA- strata has this attitude where we seem according to polling to be less anxious about migration than other countries in the advanced economists? Yeah you're dead right when you when you compare support for extreme racist policies in politics We do a lot better particularly in Europe. You know like the the the kind of Nazi protests in strata getting. I might be one hundred couple hundred. Papal Max like usually the couple dozen in Europe pots. Jimmy these hundred thousand people at these rallies. It's radically different. That Viktor Orban in Hungary and you have another one Turkey and you have the president of the Czech Republic who got himself elect Donovan anti-muslim campaign when they're about fought Muslims living in the Czech Republic. That kind of thing. Yeah and scanlon. Sort of says that look. There are people at a very concerned concerned about migration and multicultural dentistry but it never gets much more than ten percent of the population. I think the problem that we do have in Australia. Is that the institutions of power. Our and our country is extremely unrepresentative. So when these groups flare up They get disproportionate attention because how institutions of power parliament and media aren't able to call them out for being unrepresentative. They know how unrepresentative gets to something called. The bamboo ceiling. How will represented are AH in positions of leadership in this country? Yeah so this is the bad news about the performance of multiculturalism. We're very successful multicultural. Society with monocultural institutions and our institutions are more monocultural than comparative countries like Canada. UK US at the moment depending on how you measure it somewhere between eight and fourteen percent obscenities trying population with Asian heritage which incidentally a lodge minority group in African Americans in the US for example but despite being fitting to forty percent of the community. Is it strange. Represent somewhere between two and three percent of singularity ship positions across at parliament APP. Business Public Service Universities at professions united. Nyman there's this this perpetuation of an idea of what it is to be a representative of Australia. Alita in style. That still stuck in the past that still frankly clearly see someone like me a white man and we've broken down some of that Iran gender. We've we've made progress over time. But it's a new compensation that we nate to have about diversity ethnic diversity and leadership in the ABC. We had Asian Australian woman as an engineer for for short short while had ABC been minute Including Asia Asian. Australians in senior leadership positions were better and worse so so one of the good things that the previous managing directed was actually start counting this and not just counting that in in leadership and canning in on air guests and and voices enabled on the platform all previous aimed very good sign. The matted right that did draw some change but he's decided the obviously is still has a way to go before it is genuinely representative of the population. Generally speaking is a strategy of gaining. Losing appeal is a place for Margaret's. That's a really interesting question. The Immigration Department was set up by Arthur. Cole will in this kind of popular idol parish. Tom So is set up with a nation Asian building function and it was very good at attracting people to come to Australia. And that's possible years. It was very good at building animation by bringing New People to issues unfortunately particularly since had we've lost track of that nation building function of immigration is. Try It's it's become a securitized debate. The focus is on how we keep people out. Not What what people do we want to bring in. What can they contribute to as society of time so it's a really good question about are we competitive as a source of migrants today? So it's a criminal act. Sovereignty indy sovereignty of our borders versus nation building or the two different imperative assessment necessarily against one another. But they they the two different imperatives day. Well I mean so you can look you can trust that through. The challenges of the name of the Immigration Department on the previous slide government called the Department of Immigration and citizenship an inclusive thing building astrid community building the body politic. It changed off Las China government to being the deployment immigration and Border Protection. And now we have these border forces a subset of that so you can can say that kind of inclusion this is excluding top rhetoric there but the reality is. We're going to have to work harder. If we want to attract the kind of migrants we've had of loss twenties because frankly klay the source countries that we attracted as markets from getting wealthier. They getting NAS applies to leave. It's not as obvious. You'd want to move from Singapore to Sydney now. Then it was forty years ago the healthy susceptible why we talk about national identity. Doesn't mirror the reality of national identities we have the strength and now we're having this conversation here now now you're in parliament this. These things should be spoken off. What's it like when you try to have these conversations with your fellow parliamentarians? I mean just putting all the parties aside for one moment I mean you talk to people from within your own body and people beyond it. Is there an appetite to have this conversation. Even to begin with that with a story when I bring being classes for my electric school kids took to palm in house. It's like my favorite pilot open. Get to show off the thing that I'm most passionate about like out democracy and I come here and see the way democracy works I get these kids from footscray and Sunshine and point. Cool people they places in Melbourne's West and before I speak to them I walked past a wall of the fight. I of all of our parliamentarians asylum have looked at the photos on the why along. Study them you know she guy pasta and I'm going to test you on and off. They will passed. I say to them those walls on the face on the walls do they look like our community even a five year old. Even Price Kid can understand. That parliament doesn't doesn't reflect at community. It doesn't look like at community so whether or not our political latest WanNa talk about it. It's an immutable truth. It's a fundamental reality if we want to reach. HFS potential as a nation. It's something that's going to have to change. This has been amazing conversation. Thank you so much tim. It's really been lovely to speak with you. My Pleasure Tim. What's his book is called Golden Country? Australia's changing identity. I'm Richard Fidler. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to a podcast of conversations with Richard Fidler for more conversations interviews. Please go to the website website. ABC Dot net slash conversations. Discover more great A._B._C.. podcasts live radio and exclusives on the A._B._C. Listen APP.

Australia The Times United States China Prime Minister Bush Europe Tim Watts Golden Country Australia Tom John Watts ABC Geelong Charles Nancy Adelaide engineer Qantas John Melbourne Victoria
Hidden histories of Chinese Australia

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51:56 min | Last month

Hidden histories of Chinese Australia

"This is an abc podcast. Tim watts is a member of parliament. For the seat of jelly brand in melbourne's western suburbs. It's one of the most multicultural areas of australia. Whenever tim tens a citizenship ceremony on australia day in his electorate he struck by the myriad of places that the new citizens have come from and he says some so happy to have found sanctuary in australia for their families that they actually weep with relief during the ceremony to what comes from an old all anglo-australian family. His ancestors were country. People from the darling. Downs in queensland. And from victoria's will some served as members of the colonial parliaments and tim up hearing the family folklore he got bush poetry and he fell in love with that all strike at its myths and legends. But he since realized that some of these ancestors who went into public life did everything they could to make sure that his wife and kids today could never be a strident says australian still live with a powerful contradiction between the way we are the we live today and the stories that we tell ourselves about who we are and his family personifies. This contradiction. two months has written a very thoughtful book about australia. Then a noun. It's called the golden country a is changing identity. Hello tim great to be with you. You grow up in the darling. Downs of queensland. Just just how much will you kind of inculcated with the oldest writing culture. I was waiting on it My father is an agricultural engineer and that necess- decided to a lot of traveling on school. Holidays we'd travel to agricultural properties building dams and fade lots and piggeries. Nice things and those trips were quite long ones in countries dryer listeners. A familiar with the long family right trip and there are an opportunity with a captive audience to pass down you. Trapped in the car to essentially many memories of being stuck in the back of a station wagon or foil derives sweating in the backseat. While that said you know at least is the property. Way your great great. Great grandfather was a pastoralist. Oh this property way. One of and and was enlisted to guided. Gallipoli was one of the first qantas pilots. That australian legend has really waned on really waned on the idea that i was a part of that trying legend that my ancestors were part of this pioneering idea of starting a country again in australia so when i heard about those the australian legends values of egalitarian might ship the fig i that i really appeal to me like i felt like this is part of who i was like. I grew up really loving the idea of australia. I grew up with parents. That dead from country victoria mom from countries have the strategy although does all destroyed values egalitarian. Ism you know you don't get tickets on yourself. All that stuff. The thing that i really liked the humor in the storytelling. Did you get plenty of that as womb. Absolutely i can remember listening to macaroni mistrial driving around and scrub and the wags. It would call in with some quite bizarre stories from me said of tans with two cats and a dog and i swear it's true type things and as a kid. It all sounds real. You know it's unbelievable. We pull up a campground. And i said i love the egalitarian. Manas of australia. Now you pull up at a campground near you start a conversation with the people in the tent next year and the connex you and yawning i refu- bees and a barbecue people you've never met before it's magic. It's really special. Did you get the bush poetry as well. I loved it in fact when i was having my first extended period away from australia living in the us studying over there in the freezing cold snow of a north american winter. Our member trudging back to my student accommodation and reciting banjo paterson any from memory city overflow. You know i'd written maleta which i had for want of better knowledge to him just on spec. So that's your family. That's your family agree. Brought up with all the values of that to what. You lied about your answers to john watts. Because he was spoken of quite a bit in the storm. John was really significant person in my family. When i grow up we always had a portrait of him with his fantastic white flowing. Bid would not be out of place in my hipster inner city today and he was significant because we had a copy of his doors so we could pick up his raid. What he's experiences of australia were like in the fifties sixties all the way through to the it ninety s so we had that kind of firsthand connection that we could right and that was really special particularly to my father and my uncle who republished them for the bicentenary. What kind of a story of australia was he telling in his his. It's the old story of australia's he talks explicitly about in the colonialist buried and to situate him Listeners might have heard of steel. Rod unite the Australian author they out selection selection data dive. We'll steel rod was born in the area of coin san that my ancestor represented while he was the member of parliament. The he's dariz. Tell the story of of anglo settlement of australia from very attorney's perspective. You know in his mind there was nothing of any worth in. Try when he arrived. And he's end with this sort of statement of and when i left brisbane was a thriving metropolis type thing but it was a very narrow perspective of what australia was could be. That uncomplicated. love you head for you as a young man did that. Get more complicated as you got older. Yeah the uncomplicated. Love china when i started to say that those a gala -tarian values that i loved so much weren't extended to everyone society so obviously to women indigenous australians migrants and you talk about the stories. We tell it's interesting. The stories at john watts tells in his dahri said of allied a lot of the daca parts of that history. So just dip around it over us. You forget it pretending. It didn't happen on either. John watts wind. He was in parliament sat on a parliamentary inquiry into the conduct of the coins. Ninety police now. This is a a sort of paramilitary force that existed in queensland and was responsible for countless massacres and in the hand side. Talking about that John watts says that look the the police. They did some things that weren't very pretty but it's probably better than just letting the pastoralist go at it themselves that would be even uglier and at the end of that. I i think that direct quite as win. Eight to take the blacks. The mastery of the whites through the power of the cobb on that appeared in the hansa. But it doesn't appear in. The door is that he handed down to future generations. That's something a nazi would ride. That's an extraordinary thing to say. We had to send in the this. It's horrifying and and that kind of thing gives a direct connection with with the atrocities. The injustices that were committed against indigenous. Australians so i felt that really acutely. That's a jarring thing you know these things that you arise with these things were fundamental to you. All of a sudden stop viewing them through a different prison. So what do you want to do when you see something like that. You just want to throw it away or or interrogated a bit hotter. What what are you. What do you do when you read something and saying something like that. Yeah they instinctive action from my strands. I think is to pretend it didn't happen to to sort of sweep it under the carpet. It's sort of the great forgetting. It's nine in historical circles. I'm familiar i. I mean. I think those moments that i really worth delving into because they showed the potential for us as a people as as a nation to change we. We've grown since sized is There is still extraordinarily injustice. And i say that the gap between indigenous drier and and The rest of the country intensive outcomes on health and education and crime all the time in my day job. it's it's horrific and it's ongoing but in attitudes we we've come an extraordinary way the last two years we're greater country now than we were back then you had another insist charles. Netease was to me about him. Charles auntie's he's the one that is gripe pioneering stories so he was a nineteen year old on the first flight out to south australia. And it's actually a famous historical incident that involved charles nannies. When they came around into what is now south australia The original intent was to have the settlement on kangaroo island not not in adelaide and they found kangaroo all and my nineteen year. Old sister commits the captain. And and sort of ten other shipmates. Say we've been on the ship for however many months we need to stretch l. eggs. Let us off. We want to have a gallup on kangaroo island because people had told them that kangaroo and was quite a nice place hospitable place where you can ever settlement. Unfortunately for those who can't grew all. It's not like that And i lost their for ten days. Two of them died. Charles nineteen was left for dead on a beach and he was lucky enough that the surviving members of his party sort of continued on the found the ship and sent them back cream so they rescued him. Which is probably a good thing for my family line as oppose so then he settled in along in victoria after that what became of in once he settled there. Yes and not ninety six. Reinvented himself in july. As businessman he was a member of the first geelong city council But the thing that really interested may in his legacy was that he was also a member of the local anti-chinese league. Now these are common community organization that was set up during the gold. Rush era with the intent of pressuring government and agitating public opinion with the objective of driving the local chinese community. Out of the gold rush is stra. The proportion of the australian community who were born in china is about what it is today about what it is today nationwide but this was the daily interaction between The the watch the anglos on the gulf fields and the chinese took a lot of Of flack conflict. So what was the upshot of this had had. They actually succeed in in stopping chinese godmanis from coming to victoria. So i've got a copy of petition That the anti-chinese lake charles antisocial umbro presented to the victorian parliament and the objective of this petition was the crash of a politics. So this is a charge on. Every chinese arrival in port in victoria quite charge. That the intent wasn't that it would be paid the intent was it made it impossible for china to disembark and these triggered a quite extraordinary event. The ships coming from china didn't stop but continued around the coast outside victorian jurisdiction to the nearest port. Outside victoria and that was the tannen robe in robe around seventeen thousand chinese migrants with dumped there and they walked the five hundred kilometers from roy to the gulf fields in bendigo bachelorette walked five hundred. Kilometers brought all that way quite harrowing walk on that. There's a lot of history what we know about that now and you can recreate the wolf. Because many people from the chinese community do and so this is the thing amongst the chinese community. it's an remembered and all of a very well. Nine event and the chinese strang community and families recreate this For historical events for anniversaries. Things like that and there are places you can stop along the way of significance. So you're interested charles. Netease was one of the people pushing signing that petition to the colonial government to prevent the chinese from ever landing. Now today you your family. Currently your wife is born in hong kong singapore. Russian kids will. What does that do to you. The thought that you have an ancestor who wanted to create australia. Where your family would never be possible. Never be possible and your kids couldn't be australians. But what does that do thought. This was like an each in the back of my mind as we were talking about earlier. I felt this really strong connection with and with the strike around with the idea of as a keep growing up and you know as my kids became old enough for me to entrap them. In the back of carr's seats for long family right trips. It's bad distract me that they are experienced so australia's history industries reality. Today would be different to mine so that that's something that i really wanted to explore and as a member of palm as elected later something. I wanted to shout as well. It's troubling for it must have put to on you fade a bit. I mean i. I have the benefit of knowing much. About what my ancestors thought. I know i had a grandfather who was a member of this natives which was a straight for australians and often meant not poems as well that was that was the attitude lodge at the time but that may strike you for a strident So i just wonder how personally distressing his tonight that. Yeah i mean it. It's something that i suppose. I'll have that conversation with my kids when they're old enough the way that die reconcile as a saying earlier. I mean i hope that it. It really presents. An optimistic story united. How well it really shows how far we've come as a society as a as a nation that this the anti china's leagues the idea of strive for the white man which was the strap line of the bulletin published allies. Gripe poems by henry lawson and banjo paterson that we've transcended that conceptually on the one hand one of the mistakes you can have with histories to shout the past from the twenty th century and say that's all by moral standards digest clearly file to to made out moral standards of of today still even so. Yeah it's still troubling to to to see something like that i mean. These views went uncommon at the time. Like i say so. So why was the feeling against chinese migrants so strong at that time to sink credit such petitions to to do that kind of thing so there are a few things in the water at the time One of them was this sort of nice attempt to build an australian identity. Like how we different from the field. How we different from from the english as you said. Elliot's so you had to say like strand night. If association the bush poets these people that were engaged in the symbolic nation building of australia. And i had a really strong idea about what they wanted. A strike to be and it was really the same age of brussel award. Famous historian talks about trying legion. This idea that what may destroy a unique whether the experiences of people working on the land in the face of extremely challenging conditions in isolation Up against mother nature and the view was that this crowded band of people that sort of through hierarchy at the window. Egalitarian ism and might ship something that was born from drivers wagging around needing to band together to survive in this this hostile environment and you can see them responding to the majesty of australia to count like this really struck by the beauty and that this is not england this is not scotland and that was a a reflex a reaction against british attitudes. You know the Bush will horrified. Like this is a hacking anyone survive in this harsh country. Australian triumph patriots. So the they try and bush and said this is the country we love. We see the beauty in your. We were raised in so in that kind of mid nineteenth century period. People trying to say what this is what it means to be a strain. Egalitarian might chip the fig reverence resilience practicality you know all these ideas about man the land and to define that the ages to contrast that with the other with with the brits we needed to create a stereotypical. I'm fortunately the presence of the chinese and the goldfields gave us that other. You know we could. We could talk cost. The the the chinese is being served as being slaves as being physically. Wake as being morally corrupted. And you see these sort of engine that was defining australian identity in positive terms also being used to talk cost and negatively stereotype the chinese president society. So are you saying that. In order to say we. Australians this we needed to say we are not that china's essentially as we were building up our national identity. That's exactly right and it and it wasn't a coincidence. You saw events that were manufactured by by political ladies and by rod as by groups like the idea of association in order to highlight this. There was some really amazing aspects to that that character that identity. The the idea of egalitarian. Ism you know it's often brought up in it and it doesn't diminish over time. How bernudo straightens were in the prisoner of war camps in thailand in the second mobile exactly. And i like i really get irritated. Some people of like to say. Aw there's no such thing as australian identity. Australian values fundamentally we're all humans and we share that that common humanity and there's not much that really differentiates itself in essence but these they have power and in the most extreme circumstances strands latch onto them. So in the prisoner of war camps we've seen anthropological studies that show the different ways that australians behind the more collectivist -tarian wise compared to you know say the yanked so the all the poems right the these values culture the identity has value at as power was said to be and it was very blakey culture and yet at the same time it was a culture where women won the vote early. Second only to new zealand's i mean. We burn women when the vote that started earlier than just about anywhere else in the world so there was that as well. So there's a kind of a complex identity. There isn't the absolutely In that period before the first world war there was this unique strand identity of radical the gala terrorism at the heroes of austrian. Suffrage vida goldstein door. Mesa and muriel matters. Went across the kind lectured the mother country. I said you gotta get with the times. It was an extraordinarily bold confident articulation of that radical a gala. -tarian strain identity. This kind of madness that goes into the it'll be knotted century century caricatures about the chinese other. That was over there on the one hand. You say this spirit. The spiritually degenerates and the physically weak and yet there are threat their threat if they're such was ever reconcile that idea that the the yellow peril was such a threat and yet the same time these these physical specimens but supposedly inferior to the bush mile. Yes i that was rationalize was chief volume was that there were so many people to to northen just like a one. One months in population increase in china would flood australia. Say it y- this bizarre fear of science fiction writing almost about rights war in the coming through that period and they all focus on the sheer volume of people that come in is dynamics. The these heartiest bushman. With would bush and liz he'd install instead of survive off the land and fought the sort of guerrilla war against inferior but a high volume numbers of invitees pearl. Charles darwin tech the blind for this to celebrate because parole charlie. He comes up with his theory of evolution. This led to this kind of nineteenth century thing. that was really rough throughout the western world. This idea of social darwinism that there was such a thing as rice which been scientifically not true of rice and that was the in this struggle for supremacy. This ambitious we're not doesn't comes from its with some of the politics of the nineteenth century come from. Is this idea that there's this restaurant is a stray. Where the. I suppose all that Unusual in that sense for that time We were unlucky. And i say that because when the sort of social down idea came along. It had a special intrigue frustrations because we convince themselves at the time. Thanks to some pretty influential. Books are written. That not only were way. This van god of the white british rice. But we'd been hot and by the conditions of the australian bush to in some ways produce a super rice. All right ted. I charged in. I mean we were we were. We were even better than the british. Then we'd been conditioned by the bush the blue sky and the sunshine and all of that to be stronger hardier individuals absolutely as a book by charles peace and it was very popular at the time that that argued that the whites in europe had become weakened by leaving they sort of horrible industrial cds and exposure to the land that australia was sort of the vanguard of of the white rice and these went fringe views. I like in the debate about the immigration restriction. Act in the commonwealth parliament The predecessor to the white stripe policy or the legislative foundation for it. A strategy prime minister held a copy of that book while he was speaking quite a directly from it. So these were central to the thinking at the time and yet and yet and yet and yet there was another school of thought strike in this time and this is what you get the title of your book from the golden country to tell me about the origins of that title. So that there was always this sort of countess strain in the thinking that australia could be applied. Swear not only start a country a new but it's a place where the sort of the best of the world could come together and to sort of blend and mix together and create something new and even more more more successful and so the title of the book. The golden country comes from an article in the edinburgh blackwoods digest. It's a book at the time that talked about the potential for a golden australia. Too much in the goldfields through essentially rice mixing right now. That was the cutest thing and as you say earlier. Rice isn't really a thing. I'm not sort of trying to climb any racial determinism from taking that todd but the idea that a strike could be a place where the best in the world comes together and blends and produces something new and wonderful. That's an idea australia. That really catching me happened. I mean this is what happened to the is into marriage and the and this is the thing. That's under good at multiculturalism all the time so in a way. It's you see that as a kind of a prof- excitement about the strike. That was kind of ever looked largely tone. Yeah it's interesting. I'm giants have had very practical approach to multiculturalism. Donald horne writes about it as early as the sixties in countries. Such as strategist. They just manage on in their local community with with different than with new people. They sort of get to know them and continue on. And i i see that everyday mile electric. You know i mean the the. The success of multiculturalism happens in communities. You look at the job outcomes. The weijia comes a community. Attitudes margaret attitude. You know migrants report being happier than people born in australia. It's an extraordinary achievement. We can be proud of that. It's not. He's not untrue to say that. This is an incredible multicultural success story. There are caveats but fundamentally very successful. Still in the end of the nineteenth century as we're pushing ahead become federated colonies going to join up to become a federated destroyed you. How was this. Fear of the yellow peril of the chinese used to drive federation for. It has become an engine of federation team. Yes so that. The pre federation era politicians. They used it. As a rallying cry they use it as a raisin for federation think about people like henry pox that would that would manufacture these panics over the potential for an for invasion from the north desire to have a unified immigration policy unified. Defense policy was really animated by the threat from the north and this was sane as imperative full federation so you look at The big figures of the time like dakin is explicit. He says that there was no factor. That was a motivator for the federation than the desire to preserve what is try. One strategy was the. What did the colonial office in. Britain made this desire to megawati's friday. Yeah the colonial office. Bonuses needed to have a broader view because the british interests around the globe and as a result of some pace treaties negotiated particularly with the chinese they had commitments around the world to open access to ports within the british empire. So i went very impressed with these upshot. Australian colonists saying we want to have a rational racially exclusionary policy governing entry to this country because it's inconsistent trade deal so there's colonial office in london was telling australia dunk so hard on what stride yet. It was a constant source of friction and that colonial politicians. Use to grandstanding public. And i say the brits. I don't understand what we're up against. And what kind of. Fritz is samuel griffith. Who is one of the architects of the strand constitutional. Not that great jurists. Who when he was the queensland permeate threatened that if the client will office didn't get with the program astrid would guy the why of the united states and violent revolution samuel griffith said if the colonial office doesn't let us have wide australia then we might rebel wok the united states and become an independent nation. And this is a black who has a constitutional conservative constitutional society named after him today on cast broadcast and online. You're listening to conversations with richard final to when you get to the establishment of the first federal parliament's mates what nine nine one or thereabouts. How much of a priority was what a strategy for that parliament. Well it was the number one party After that the federation parliament got done with the sort of the administrative things that they needed to do. It's setting up a country and setting customs rights and things like that The first issue of what edmund barton has prime minister described as high policy. That was divided by the federation parliament was a bill called the immigration restriction. Act that way now is the why destroy a policy and this was an extraordinary to bite. The hand side for this divide runs for hundreds of pages were eighty nine members of parliament that spike in that abide including five future prime ministers. And when you read that to by tobias listen to twenty first. Century is the language at season. That wouldn't be out of place in in a white supremacist form on the internet. Today it's ugly stuff. It's a debate really. It sounds like it's hundreds of pages of furious agreement. Now is a red hot tonight. is debate between whether we should outright exclude people who went right went. What does ban them a. Whether we should have a dictation test that we could issue in any any european language we should chose to effectively ban people. Now that was going back to the issue. We talked early on with the the the colonial office from the uk thyroid. With the dictation test. Because that's what the south africans had in nepal and it was that you could sort of hodja brushes and practice racial discrimination in effect without it really appearing explicitly in the legislation hughes who was in the labor party at the time at the time he jumped around a bit quite from this time billy hughes said we object to these people because of the vices and of their morality and because of one hundred things which can only hint at and our objections are not to be met by the declaration that the imperial government will be embarrassed by them the provision in the bill. Would i admit keep out the end of an islander or the low caste hindu but they would not keep out the japanese and i doubt whether they would exclude the chinese. I do not think they would do anything more than shut out the very lowest type of colored as the attic. You have this kind of classic. Worry that the you know. We don't like them in their inferior but Japanese chinese one of the they might actually be quite clever in we. We have to worry about that. Yeah well that that quote from hughes goes straight to that controversy. I was talking about earlier whether we should just have an outright ban which i think you can work out. That was what he wanted. Or the dictation test which us worried that you know. The more clever asian races could get around. Some people like to argue that that the restriction act wasn't actually about rice. It wasn't racist. It was about preserving working conditions or preserving a a unified body politic for democracy. Although that is the argument they weren't the reasons why objections to having chinese labourers was that they'd worked for right wages than than what a into the. Yeah absolutely but when you read. The text of what was actually said so the leader of my party. Time chris watson he has an extended section talks about the evils of rice mixing in marriage. That's not a library concern. It's not a democratic concern. It's something that's animated by racial prejudice but by discrimination beppe at that the fundamentalists stike that they might not as they thought that the chinese were unchanging that. If you weren't what there was something inherent in. You denied that he just couldn't fit in in australia that it was a nonsense to talk about. Egalitarian system with paypal at went what because i couldn't leave up to the same standards as us. I mean they had a different values. Different ideas different capabilities. And just fundamentally incompatible. The thing that i didn't realize is that the chinese had arrived in australia. Like every of migrants come scenes adapted adopted a strong values change them. They didn't change us. And there's this great quote from the nineteen thirties from chinese ryan. Who's speaking to a delegation from china who was investigating human rights abuses frankly of chinese australians in our country with tom to report back to china and the quite essentially guys you know the chinese change whenever they go if you drop them in the united states following the industrial example between the night become rampaging capitalists if you drop the chinese in singapore in british singapore following the example. They they become contractors with designs on a knighthood. And if you drop a chinese in australia by become labor organizers and agitators for the working man's paradise that's the reality of china's sprint star of the first chinese market tra- came as a carpenter and ended up as a publican in western sydney. This goes way back. You the second governor of new south wales governor king was told by the client office. He would have to take finian's irishman as prisoners in these penal colony. Right back a furiously this thing. They will not fit in. They can't possibly fit in and of course a couple years later right back to say. Actually it's worked at rather well. It turns out if you give people but of land and a bit of liberty. They make a go things and they and they said they've actually fitted into the life of the so. This is an ongoing thing underneath that. It seems to be an anxiety. Gee maybe we just so feeble maybe. Our culture is so feeble here in australia that we can't possibly persuade someone else to change. I think that's right. It's a it's a fundamental insecurity that we building something new here and that it's precious and that someone else might destroy it. And i think it's precious but i think it's powerful like the astride idea that a gala terrorism. It's something. I'm really confident. Going in. and we have confidence of a century of migrants being drawn to it wanting to embrace it and succeeding and thriving society tool that benefit. When those words. I federal politicians talking about what the chinese chinese migration. How did they took about aboriginal australian. Today they mentioned in the same breath. I keep take care to keep those conversations separate because of course you know what is intellect and they complain about chinese into lopez way. What's what's your reading on that. Yeah definitely that. The social dominance thinking led the latest of the time to george continuum from indigenous australians through to strive to To asians the best example of this is is billy hughes. Who who when giving a speech at the opening of parliament house explicitly says that wada dry has vanquished indigenous australians from the continent. But if we're not careful about things the yellow horde will come down and bank us. i mean they. They viewed this in explicit terms of racial competition. You talking about how the gold rush. China had at that point been in australia for four decades five decades. By the time you get the start of the first world war and one of the ladies remember is the story of simpson and he's donkey. Must people know that story. But there's another story of an ends ex story about a man named billy seeing who was there what historian hillbilly thing. Someone that every estranged and he was from the central northern queensland around banja. Patterson roy waltzing matilda actually and Billy was a kangaroo shooter. He was a driver. Who's a cane. Cutter is the opening fastball for the upon cricket club and you couldn't get any more strategy in the billy sing and he arrived in In gallipoli in the trenches sny and he was extraordinarily successful extraordinarily deck. Decorated is credited with somewhere between two hundred and three hundred kills which is a macabre metric. But that was his profession. I'm here is very good at it. He was injured in combat multiple times. He won the dais. He lauded by all of his colleagues but he died in a pulp ascribed with nothing to his name. And and i think the reason for that is because he was a chinese strain. And so when we're telling the story of anzac we know that the child bain who i think is an extraordinary astrid and told the story of anzac and why he put the individual soldiers. I in his history didn't wanna tell us sweeping story. Generals had strategy tactic. Or whatever you know. He was like john. Smith from outside baylor at did these this battle you know it was pretty radical thing to do an admirable. The problem is is that we know from star says that he was also a white nationalist and he it explicitly as his judy to perpetuate the idea widest dry He viewed as an obligation for him to do that. In dade in the official. He's trees sack. He writes astray was at risk of racial suicide and less vigorous measures opted given that context. I think it's a coincidence. That in in a in a official history that names literally thousands of australian soldiers by nine in the body text of that official history. Policing is not mentioned. The charles brain changes views on that. And this is why. I think bain is such an extraordinary figure because he saw the errors of his wise during his lifetime After the first world war he saw that the kind of the extreme end of this racial thinking in the late up to nazism in world war two and he had a damascene conversion. He changed his mind. You realize who was wrong. And he wrote a series of paces Criticizing the widest riot. Pulsing strike had to change so in one sense. I think bain is his extraordinary optimistic example of people's ability to grow and change. The the problem was that stage. She'd already written the official histories and he sort of set in stein. This view of anzac. That sort of still with us today. That doesn't reflect the diverse reality that it actually was. So then we come to the mid sixty to late sixty s and after robert menzies has gone herald. Halt prime minister dismantles a large part of the trade policy. Kinda desert bus. In way doesn't really make much of announcement with govern gets elected and they they noisily dismantle. What remains of it and proudly sign there to put the to bury water strata as as a policy. And that's done and yet with all that. What were we saying about australia at the time. We'll we saying that we didn't need to change nonetheless with having done that too. Well it's an interesting thing that happened. Whitlam buried watts riot policy. Allographs b.'s immigration minister literally. Say give me a shovel to bury it. But immigration rights was still very low through that period and through the whole katie government. The immigration program was still oriented towards family reunion side. It was still very What frankly in it in its composition. We we rhetorically in in the seventy s sort of abandoned stray. But we didn't say the product of that community for a significant period of time and any. My book argued that we didn't really say it until howard radically changed out system in the nineties. What changed john. Howard became prime minister. So so how. A chinese jail migration system in two important ways. Firstly he reorientated from majority family reunion driven permanent tyke to a skills by tyke and that allowed him to increase the size of it so more people who are immediately productive in the economy could be brought in he also introduced a whole range of categories of temporary migrations temporary skilled migration working hall at. I've as as students study vases. Those kinds of things now doing that at the con of the early stages of a twenty eight year economic payment is try of two thousand eight consecutive years of economic growth introducing ineffectively at demand-driven migration. System menton strives migration. Right was very high for the last twenty s and this was really first big boom migration since the end of the widest pulsing. So that's i think it's a you. And george nikola janus have come on the show and noted that one of the that one of the greatest legacies of the howard years was this gigantic king tide of migration because while that might have happened why the modern intake shifted to skills bison greatly increased. Its has that. How does that sit with the story. John howard was telling you about this identity at the time and he comes the paradox so while how radically diversifying strikes demography population in his rhetoric. He was breaking out ability to talk about it and after a century of nation building in the image of australia. We really need to talk about it but how it. He didn't just say we need to ignore it. He said there wasn't even an issue. He's quite at once saying there's no need for the perpetual symposium on austrian identity. Because quite i know what an australian. He's an old will be. He wasn't talking about indigenous. Australians he had this view of australian identity is sort of carved in stein by sanary. Pox passed on down to us via charles. Bane donald bradman and that was you know the fifty s version of strain identity was no more change. Sometimes i if you catch him in a weak moment he'll admit he's narrow on that stuff but but that pasta's pretty quickly and then he'll go back to what he's saying about it pretty much. Well i can't speak to whether he has had any personal changes of attitude on these issues. What i can say is that he was very successful in prosecuting effectively. Culture wolves on on rice and identity straight across multiple elections and he kind of scared my side of politics off talking about it. So we went from this period in the mid nineties of hawking katie talking about changing identity quite extensively to a period where we've had more than two decades of sort of viewing it as a third wral strand politics at a skirting around not wanting to tackle it head on the semi. He got elected bullying hanson. Got elected to the federal parliament met her famous speech. Who made the speech where she talked about australia. Being in danger of being quite swamped by agents from talking to joined the friends of mine about that tons. I remember that as being the year with our they were abused on public transport spat on the times. That was a good year was ni- it's certainly one that had a big impact on on me. My family eyesight a colleagues in parliament. Never forget that the words we use parliament house will soon be in the males of bullies in school yachts crammed around the country. You know what we do in our politics what we do empowerment house filters down throughout society and pauline hanson injected. Something really ugly into that that that discourse in the nineties and has direct personal impact on tens of thousands of australians. Interestingly we had relatives in singapore is it safe for agents to walk down the street. Now now that some some even had this idea and they had. She'd was prime minister of australia. And somehow she was running the country and we also found this in the in india after indian students had been attacked. There was this feeling that it's not safer indian people being straight as well. This seems to be like a real quickness to believe exaggerated like there's racism here and there's violence here but the the this readiness in the region to see us in that light. What what do you think that tim. What do you make that interesting. I what. I expected to dozens of strands writing this book to try and get the they they view on this. And one of the people speaking to is Timpson thomasson who as a former racial discrimination commissioner. He's decided that the thing that would drive in moist crazy about his job was people were constantly asking is a stray arises country. It's a bit of a nonsensical question. The united states other countries going around having that conversation like yes. They're absolutely very varieties of racism in australia and they really serious issues on the other hand. There are a whole range of areas where we do far better on questions of rice than other countries to side like everything post hat. It's become this sort of culture war about We are we not racist but the reality is far more complex. Follow nuance in the united states to migration amid public opinion polls. What what did they tell us about. How straightens feel about this this intense wave of migration we've had was traded. That's the population increase and to change the nature of australia quite quite substantially while we await sort of always on the verge of putting on the cloth on issues of bryce strains attitudes to migration rice are actually really exceptional internationally. The foundation on has been looking at social cohesion in australia for more than a decade the gold standard in social attitudes research and his and they've never found response from the public on attitudes to multiculturalism lower than the economies. And this is through all of the the blaster of politics on this issue. Like strategist nonplussed. They comfortable with with multiculturalism by lock it. The other staff that i think really stands out and this is the pew institute did international survey on this and they asked people in all kinds countries around the world. What is important to being truly from your country. so what is it. What is important to being truly australian and they asked this in lots of different countries And australia's about the lowest response. She can get to the question of. Is it important to be born here to be truly australian. Like we like half of the response to the us on that question us the great migrant country. We think it's less important than the americans strenuous sonos. I think the The full question is compared to what so so why. Why do you think australia has this attitude where we seem according to polling to be less anxious about migration than other countries in the advanced economies. Yeah you're dead right when you when you compare support. For extreme racist policies in politics we do a lot better particularly in europe the nazi protests dry. Get one hundred couple hundred. Papal max like usually a couple of dozen in europe and parts jimmy these hundred thousand people at these rallies. I'm such. it's radically different. That victor in hungary and you have to want wanted to key. And you had the president of the czech republic who got himself elected anti-muslim campaign when they're a bet fox is living in the czech republic. That kind of thing and it says scanlon Sort of says that. Look there people at a very concerned about migration multicultural modernity mistrial. But it never gets much more than ten percent of the population. I think the problem that we do have in australia. Is that the institutions of power in our country extremely unrepresentative so when these groups flare up they get disproportionate attention because our institutions of power parliament and media on able to cold out for being unrepresentative. They know how unrepresentative this gets to. Something called the bamboo ceiling. How will represented asian stridency in positions of leadership in this country. This is the bad news about the performance of multiculturalism. We're very successful multicultural. Society with monocultural institutions and our institutions. A mole monocultural than comparative countries like canada uk. Us the my aunt depending on how you measure it it somewhere between thirteen and fourteen percent of the population with asian heritage which incidentally a lodge minority group than african americans in the us for example but despite being to fourteen percent of the community is strands represent somewhere between two and three percent of ladyship positions across parliament business at public service at universities professions. United there's this this perpetuation of an idea of what it is to be a representative of australia. How later in australia but still stuck in the that still. Frankly see someone like me. Mike a white man and we've broken down. Some of that are angenda you know. We've we've made progress over time. But it's a new compensation that we need to have about diversity ethnic diversity and leadership in the abc. We had a asian. Australian woman is managing editor for for short short while abc. Been at At including asia. Asian australians in senior leadership positions better and worse so one of the good things that the previous managing director was actually start counting this and not just counting that in in leadership and counting in on air guests and and voices enabled on the platform. The previous same-day was very good inside. This issue mattered so that some change but it is fate aside obviously is still has a way to go before it is genuinely representative of the population. Generally speaking is a straight gaining or losing appeal. Plus for margaret's that's a really interesting question The immigration department was set up by article. Well in this kind of Idol perished tom so set up with a nation building function. And it was very good at attracting people to come to australia. And those postal years it was very good at building a nation by bringing new people to assure us unfortunately particularly since had we've lost track of that nation-building function of immigration try. It's it's become a securitized debate so the focus is on how we keep people out. Not what people do we want to bring in. What can they contribute to our society over time. So it's a really good question about our competitive as a source for migrants today christian like sovereignty sovereignty of boorda's versus nation-building or the two. Different imperatives spice. Not necessarily against one another but the the the the two different imperatives day. While i mean you can look. You can try that through the challenges of the name of the immigration department on the previous live of government. It was called the department of immigration and citizenship an inclusive thing building the australian community building. These strand body politic. It changed change of government to being the department immigration and border protection. And now we have these border forces a subset of that so you can say that kind of inclusion. This is excluding top rhetoric there. But the reality is we're going to have to work harder if we want to attract the kind of migrants we've had lost twenty s because frankly the source countries that we attracted as markets from getting wealthy at the getting nassir places to live. It's not as obvious. You'd want to move from singapore to sydney now than it was forty years ago. Thesis of your book. Is that why we talk about. National identity doesn't mirror the reality of bashan deputies we have and now we're having this conversation ear now urine parliament this way. These things should be spoken off. What's it like when you try to have these conversations with fellow parliamentarians just putting all the parties aside for one minute. I'm you talk to people from within your own body and people beyond it. Is there an appetite to have this conversation. Leaving to begin. With hindsight with a story when i bring classes for my electric school kids took to common has like my favorite pilot job to show off the thing. I'm most passionate about like out democracy. Come here and see the way. Democracy works i get these kids from footscray and sunshine and point cool can people apply opens west and before i speak to them. I walk them past. A wall of the photo is all about parliamentarians. And i set aside and have a look at the photos on the wild long. Study them guy pasta. And i'm going to test you on them and they walk past. I say to them those walls on the pacers on the walls do they look like our community even a five year old even at primary school kid can understand. That apple doesn't reflect community it doesn't look like at community So whether or not are politically wanna talk about it. It's an immutable truth. It's a fundamental reality if we want full potential as a nation. It's something that's going to have to change. This has been amazing. Thank you so much tim. It's really been lovely to speak with you. My pleasure big fan of the show. Thrilled to be conversations with richard fidler. I spoke to tim. Watts in twenty nine thousand. Nine teams book is called the golden country ustralia identity. I'm richard fidler. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to a podcast of conversations with richard fidler for more conversations interviews. Please go to the website. Abc dot net dot edu slash conversations. Discover more great. Abc podcasts live radio and exclusives on abc listen app.

australia china bush victoria gulf fields john watts John watts queensland charles parliament tim samuel griffith Tim watts federation parliament kangaroo island Downs of queensland maleta Rod unite coin san dahri
Listening to China

Conversations

53:11 min | 2 years ago

Listening to China

"This is an ABC podcast. Professor. David Walker grew up in a small mining town in South Australia. This was in the post war years when a straightens tended to see Asia the Asian region mostly as a threatening zone to our north populated by cunning, but cruel people the Japanese were the people who had attacked straighter in the second World War and the Chinese ROY suspected of wanting to seize strata for itself. The revival of Asian power in the twentieth. Century was a deeply unsettling thing in strata. David Walker went on to become an academic in straight and studies with a focus not so much on age itself. But on how ustralian 's have perceived Asia throughout our history and discovered that although starting perceptions of Asia have been overwhelmingly negative threat history. There were some hidden cross-currents that revealed that we've always had a fascination with the nation's to own off. And while there were many voices insisting on strata status as an outpost of the British empire for very long while there were other voices that had been calling on strategy to embrace a Eurasian future. In two thousand twelve David Walker took up a position as the chair of a strident studies at Peking university in China itself. Supporting the centers of strata studies at universities all over China. It was the high point of a long and distinguished career. And when he took the job to have it was almost totally blind David's written now a second volume of a series on the strain perceptions of Asia and the book is called stranded nation. Welcome back to conversations. Thank you, Richard Asia. That's an interesting to him. I asia. What do we mean? By is Asia meaningful to anyone who actually lives in Asia, or the term we outside as used to describe it. It's pretty much turn weird. So as us the worst, invented to describe all that other stuff, you know, there wasn't us. And for people in Asia. I think I would much prefer to be thought of as belonging to their own societies and cultures. You know? They're not part of generic thing. Gold asia. It's pretty hard to get away from a main as much as we might try. You know, so it's there. Usefully it's pretty throw away. But, but yeah, it has its limits is something that's always been out there for a political leaders pretty much think I mean, I think the idea that we have an Asia within which is one of the things I would also argue you know, that it's already here and has been year in various ways for long-term. Let's never caught cutting on you know. So it's always the Asia were there that we tend to focus on. I think remember how China was viewed by people in your town and in the larger area back, then it was pretty much as an exotic and threatening place. But also very distant, you know, there was there was a sense that you'd never actually get there. You know, there was not something that you would visit. But also, our remember those FU Manchu images from childhood financial is a brilliant mind. His mind was as great as the three greatest minds in the English speaking world, but. I Mario and with designs upon world conquest, and so on so those sorts of images had filtered through, and I'm not sure where I can't ever recall reading of who mention novel in truth does he just wide spreading the speaking world. I like I've got a bunch of covers of of all comic books like detective Connex, which is where Batman I p. And this is before the Japanese attack on pill hob again, and again, one in every sick and cover has an image of food Menchu evil Chinese person with a long moustache rubbing, his hands with absurdly pointed is this is a kind of a widespread view of China as a place where where you have Reince in cruel people. Yes. I mean, it's a scheming rubbing the hands gaming, but but brilliant elect behind it or or a calculating intellect bond and intellect with it compassion. So there's a mine's committed totally depair. There's also an image of in. On these these images of like, a pulpits incense coming out of it. And Italy pled Asian women in the background this this hint of six involved in that as well. I think so because in the Manchus genre on rich. I'm now a great authority. A few such figures, you know, really, alluring places of female Asian exotica waft in and out. I remember my dad telling me it was in the air force that before the war Japanese people were seen as almost sub-human bandy-legged mile pick. But to then he said that the war guy, the straight of the shock of its life. Was that your experience in in your town as well? It was pretty much. We I had to ankles who went into the Air Force One of whom is executed on the island of Ambon not in forty two in my family. There was very much their view. I think that the Japanese were not quite up to it. And they are war glasses, which is pretty clear that are in travel, but they couldn't say at night. So that was terrific was terrific bickers. And that how business about Darwin? You know, I mean, I only had the the right I run between nine and five. Kinda wonder if part of that was predicated on the fact the Japanese going to. Five because they couldn't say this. Who knows in do? So I suppose this does mean that you grow with the sense, I suppose in the culture in a straight as it wasn't countries out the strike and the north as a as a strange and threatening place pretty much think. Yeah. Although there was also running through that as you indicated earlier, a kind of a nation, and my my family, despite the execution of my uncle, whether Japanese which you know, would often in families lead to some pretty bitter recrimination Trie to about the jets and soun- they weren't given to that kind of bigotry. So they there was not a lot of that flowing through the conversations that I heard as a kid, but there was also under underpinning that a bit of facination with all a bit of a idea that it was interesting and intriguing. You would have been eligible to have been conscripted into service in to the fight in Vietnam wasn't how did you feel about that at the time? Well, I mean, a lot of trainings that Tom I was bad. What was eighty not into something? And you know, a lot of us were scrambling to found where Vietnam was you know, really, I mean it hadn't been any part of my schooling tonight where now mos- and I haven't bothered to find out. So I did a bit of research and discovered where it was, but that was all part of the code or language of the damn with rest of communism. And and so on so been pretty heavily imbued with that. And I was in a family of in a conservative liberal voting Menzies voting families. So they broadly supported those narratives about the threat, we're under and my members are vigorous proponent of the idea that this would make a man of me, which was a failed project. View was disconcert about that frankly, because as I pointed out to so. Goes Mexico ups of. Choosing rather more Maggie, man. Maybe it was a high priority high priority. So what made you having become a go to to be interested in this idea, the Stratus perception of Asia when it was partly Vietnam. I mean, it was it was a realization that I knew so little about the country that we were fighting in. And that really I needed to know bit more about the nations that we were seeking to enter in a in a military spirit in order to you know, Cheever Aaron's wherever ins consistent with their Aaron's. So began to think a lot about the connection to Asia in that in that way, and Vietnam was caught a starting point for that. But Certa was this lurking story of my uncles, beheading, you know, that sort of set in the background of the family for long longtime so new that Japan and south East Asia matadors in ways that I was not. Entirely clear about looking back when you found voices in our history that had spoken of how we should fit into this region or how we looked upon Asia. We'd no, of course, that a lot of the British colonists to a straight complained about strays apparent 'isolation, but with others who sort differently. Oh, sure. Yes. And this is one of the things that really intrigue me getting into the history. Ed Wood, given Whitefield eighteen twenty nine spelled out. The idea that ustralia was part of the region, you know, as close to the region, and he'd said that, you know, people often thought of straighter is bang out of the way. But he said it was actually surrounded by very populous nations different cultures different peoples different economic and trading opportunities. So for Wakefield. There was already that idea of strategy bring if you like part of Asia and his federal DEA was that the Chinese would make tremendous immigrants because they brought great horticultural. Skills to the development of destroy a nation. So they help transform what he called a wilderness into garden their Chinese migrants to Sydney quite early on. We know that I have had reports that there was that in early Sydney's life the festival of Hussein was celebrated by Muslim malay- spice traders in the streets of Sydney early on. I I wonder if we were already starting to integrate into Asia at that point. How do you see that that kind of early I influence within Australia, and how it affected how we looked at the raging? Well, I think there was a lot more of it than we have currently understood because we always keep updating engagement, you know, or or Asia's always the future. Right. It's something her. It's always coming. It's always coming resorts coming so even allowed to Gillard what paper that was about the future that was what twenty twelve but that was about the future, you know. And and her argument was that it was unprecedented. We hadn't been there. So each eater ration- of the Asian argument postpones it to the future. So the idea that we've had past which has been inhabited by these stories, and these people and these connections, and these understandings of estrellas closeness to Asia, we've pretty were lost that I think lost and understanding of that also on new there was a man called William lane who is quite an appalling human Bank, quite frankly, he said beginning in the nineties British Margaret began as as a as a communist, and then became a fascist lighter on to me about the novel. He wrote about a future Asian invasion of ustralia years ID nights for the tomatoes Tinari of European settlement British settlement, he wrote a book. Call cereal serialized in the boomerang, which is the labor movement paper that he edited called white or yellow a story of the rice war of eighty nine hundred nights. So it was one of those again, it goes back to that theme of the few as you the future says been just been destroyed his future since as long as we made. Thank you about Asia. You know, it's always the future. So for laying it was a generation hints twenty years into the future. Also. But his idea was that the Chinese we're get to be in cahoots with the top brass of the British establishment to turn a stroller. Into in the language of the nineteenth century miseducated community mixed race community sever him, the idea of mixed-race community was absolutely abhorrent. And it was a betrayal of what he's spelt out. Then as being what a strange, which was a a racially pure understand. Ding of trailers futures. So for him agent bloodlines, the great threat to the integrity, and the coherence and the future of the nation that on the other hand you found that while blind. My took miscegenation mongrel is Asian that fries. There are other voices at the time talking about kind of a future for straight as a Eurasian nation of golden people in this would be an entirely good thing. Yes in love that was based around days of climate. Because again, it goes back to the geography idea and the idea that race was who has created by climate. So total created good people. I guess, you know, European nations were kind of sturdy and resilient and a lot of capacities and rational rational, deeply and tropical climates produce people who they're indulged by the climate. And so they didn't have to plan to NAFTA think they're just set under a gag nut. Trae wedding for lunch to drop into their lap. Right. Distracted by sensual. Ages absolutely of and Cala, you know, they love killer. But part of the idea was that you needed in a climate like house you needed to mix the European bloodlines? If you like with Asian bloodlines in order to produce the stock right to make us fit for purpose. Stride fit for purpose because the strata wasn't straightforwardly European. So a stranger already at that stage. If you look at the the climate based language narratives and stories was oria, pre and big Uwe soon, you know, it was as much as in as it was European, and if it was as much agen as it was European how will we adapt to that? And we kinds of at it and accommodation will be need to make. I was told that the one of the reasons why camera was selected as a site for national parliament was because of it's called climate. And the thinking was that a cold climate for political leaders would make them more Nordic? In the way, they thought and behaved and make more cool headed and rational decisions about future. Wanna have that tuned out? That was that was a Brennan success because we are of course in Oregon. We know above all that we're pretty cool. We're come political debates of measured thoughtful and. Very always always evidence. Was there for a long time? Was there a deep worry in strata that the British stock that had come out here. Just might not be up to holding a strategy for the white, man. Yeah. I mean, I subscribe to that view. I mean, again, it goes back to the client given that. There was a feeling that particularly the northern parts of air climb. And that the race would deteriorate in those clemency conditions and to the sturdy qualities which had been sitting behind British colonizing prowess with gradually wakened and diminishes toners. So that has trillions would not only live not live up to the heritage. But would not be well equipped to hold and develop the continent. The missing people from this discussion Seifollah, of course, the straits indigenous. Yes. What was their way of thinking that said that we white men have taken a stray from the black, man. So now the yellow man might come and take try to from the white man years. There was that view. And I think it was coming into being in the late night in century. There was a there was a an understanding creeping into the literature and the way these subjects discussed, and is there in a book called the Keller conquest published bed nine hundred two you have the what conquest of average unless trailer so what replaces black. But the narrator of the Keller conquest is the last of his tribe. The white trod telling the story of the disappearance of of the what man to be replaced by by Asia's. So what replaces black and yellow in the language of the late nineteenth early. Twentieth century yellow replaces what so we become a kind of a. Zero spice in history account of of aberration. If you like. D- that several really gonna wipe because as you say this. I'm reminded of pulling Hanson's famous maiden speech and ninety ninety six where she spoke disdainfully of ever original people on the one hand. But then also warned that we were being quite swamped by Asian DC that as a can you drew a line between that thinking in the nineteenth century to to that speech? I think I think you can. I mean, a lot of people would be traveled budge offering such a nothing, but but in my thinking there is a connection between those anxieties Meticularly ram boats boats and borders northern borders. We have a real sensitivity around these issues, and they're in the what or yellow I mean, that's all invasion stories told, you know, it's it's boats and inversion it's people appearing on our northern shores. Not being noticed often. You know that they're just they nearly little encampments and then beyond the encampment they extend their. Their influence. So I think that they're not dear is pretty deeply embedded in s Arkin. And actually remember that the rise of Asia in the terms that I'm talking about it in the eighty nineties coincides of the birth of the nation. So the Commonwealth is we understand it as a what nation Cowan sides with the emergence of Asia, which is the thing which may eliminate us. So that those two ideas of creation air limitation, sit alongside of each other. I think in a ways have done when a stray did become a nation in in nineteen. I one we the whitest radio policy was very uncontroversial. It was pretty much great to on all sides of politics at the time that you discover that Alfred deacon one of the founding fathers of strident federation 'Second, prime minister Heff s nation Frazier. What kind of a nation fascinated by India? But also pulled by India's have it's that it's that Jackson. Position again of being being fascinated and repelled at the same time. So he was both I night by India fascinated by its cultural diversity in its religious traditions because they can deeply into religion, and spirituality, but the idea of being a strategy being contaminated by Keller uphold him. So the idea of what is trailer for Dakin becomes absolutely fundamental in in determining what kind of nation we need to become and the ways in which we have to protect ourselves from Asia in order to become that. So we have the second World War with every new that happens within that. And the way we see Japan to change forever after that. And the rest of Asia, what has changed once we into the Menzies era, in the way, L leaders view the region. One of the things that changed was the change in Asia at self because from the. Forties. Azure is to colonizing repidly. And you know, all as countries that are under European control. No longer under European controls. The Eurropean retreat from Asia at a Spade, which absolutely astonishes sharks strenuous know for all the prior to combat us being part of the region and needing to think about the region we hadn't I think is a nation. Understood that Asian decolonization was happening. Very very rapidly and never becoming independent nations Dutch being kicked out of Indonesia, the British a slightly starting to lay Malaysia and Singapore. Yes. Didn't that protection of European coaches? You know, holding down the night is in inverted commas goes in a matter of, you know, it's ten to fifteen years, you know, that that whole thing changes. And so the idea of a what nation proclaiming Europeanness is not looking quite so smart by the nineteen fifties. Because independent Asian nations being pretty resentful of this and pretty outspoken ability. I mean, they are no longer holding back on the kinds of policies. That are stroller is pursuing at longtime prime minister threat, periods to Robert Menzies mighties feelings about close relationship with Britain, very very clear, and this was view that hill by a great ministrations at the time. But was that the universal view within his cabinet with our other members in his government trying to to reach out to these newly decolonized independent people in Asian. We'll spend his minister for external affairs before Casey, and briefly and spend it was making the argument that destroy was part of Asia. You know, there's a famous speech that he makes not in fifty that. That says we really need to understand that this is this is the part of the world that we in have it and to understand the implications of that. And then Casey is minister for external affairs for about ten years has quite a bit of Asian experience in the British impeach. Cereal count of y. But nonetheless, Casey, I think recognizes that we need to get closer to these. These nations may be understood by them and explain ourselves to them better. So on the one hand, we still have the water strider Polisena strider in postwar years right up to the mid sixties. And on the other hand, we're part of the Colombo plan, which brings the most talented students from the region into a straight to be educated in strata and hopefully to win them over to straight in life straightened people and make those kind of connections. Do you get the feeling that estrogen Strang governments talking at two different sides of it's mouth here on the one hand. It says to straighten people all nothing's going to change. And on the other hand is please we want to engage with you. Yeah. I think I think this quote a contradiction running through the and but but paddock contradiction. Think is based around the idea that somehow if we get any explain to Asian nations that were tolerant people leaving and this rhetoric runs through the fifties and sixties estrogens are uniquely tolerant people, you know, we don't have a racial bone in their body. Really documents. All we were we were very very powerful in very very strongly, and what is trailer been eliminated from the language of government, so often ministers when speaking your bet. Yeah, I rem- aggression policy which side, there's no such thing as what is turn a policy and the language is appropriate because we don't have that language their cabinet. So yes on the one him. So this is argument that we're not any of the policies that we're pursuing around immigration have nothing to do with rice. But on the other hand that's a pretty hard message to sell to the region, which says things in slightly different terms. You know, the region is not Attlee persuaded by that argument. Let's where the the need to publicize ourselves in the region comes in and to generate a whole bunch of schemes of which the Colombo plan is one to show how we'll disposed out of the region. So on the one hand, we have this tremendously insistent, hospitality offensive. If you like to show what I generously disposed, tolerant people, we are in the hope that if we can make that argument, stick we can still stay with their immigration program and build up ustralia through European immigration, Paul Keating. I think. Said in the past that we got out of the water strategy policy just in time. And if we hadn't have done it, then we might have become a pariah state like South Africa with its apartheid policies, which led us to go heels in and we could have had a terrible time. What do you think of that? I think the something in that argument. I think we had to let it go and increasingly it was becoming unsustainable. And I think it was becoming unsustainable. Partly because of the hospitals the initiatives, if you because many of the people coming in under the Colombo plan were, you know, buying trilingual extremely articulate the rival to spe capably about the strengths of their coaches and societies and we had an Asian visitors program sponsored by the government, which was designed to bring out journalists from Asia to say, you're strata, and I think the combined influence of the Colombia plan in the Asian visitors program. Was a powerful factor in undermining what a stroller because his to begin to say that the people he'd been in a sense demonized culturally, and we're faceless now had faces and voices and arguments and many of them are extremely charming compelling and capable. So the people were locking out were not necessarily the people Wade that that that are national imaginary had created for us. Podcast. Cast. Mine. This is conversations with Richard Fidler ABC radio. When Gough Whitlam became prime minister he'd already cracked up in the idea of normal relations between strider and the People's Republic of China never seen as a political plus for him at the time, this became a bipartisan policy that was supported by Malcolm Fraser who came out to him. And then there was Bob Hawke who talked about a strategy becoming enmeshed with Asia fries in meshed. How did that go over which was into that? I think time it was becoming clear that Britain had gone to Europe. So motherhood lift us, and we were having to determine what part of the world, we belong to in a much more urgent worm. And that discussion of being around for a hell of a long term. You know, we've been talking about geography history imperative Asia and all the rest of it for a very long term one another. But now, but the sixties middle light sixties, those chickens, come to roost. So a straight ahead to think about its place in the region. And we was selling a lot to China through the night in fifty. Sixties and said the rural communities who in some ways Martaban fairly conservative in their attitudes. Son, communism and communist China. And so on were also the beneficiaries of growing tried with China and particular in terms of weight, but also with Japan. So we were doing pretty well actually out of Asia's rise and some of the beneficiaries of that economic relationship word the communities who might traditionally have been pretty suspicious about getting close to Asia. So the idea getting closer think was more more generously accepted than you might have imagined given the history. When Paul aiding became prime minister, he had kind of a us interlocking policies which had so much to do with the strategy engaging with Asia, he and Bob Hawke and setup the Asia Pacific Economic community. I make which was very very useful form he. He said that the strategy should not seek security from Asia. But with in Asia, and he was also careful to say that this did not mean we were to become Asian that we would remain a stray leeann what do you make of that that distinction there? Well, I think it's a pretty important. When I go to his argument was that we would become more stringent in understanding place in the region that that that was a significant part of air density, formation more strident Morris ran in that in insofar as we belonged in the region, so long as postponed any attempt to understand L location or resisted understanding our place in the region. We also resisted any kind of deeper thinking about who we are. And what we were as a nation. So I think his contention was this this Mary's up to the regional theme as well. I think that you know. You know in order to understand who we are. We needed to understand airplanes in the region. They we also needed to understand the depth of ever journal Arab original past and those two things work together any governor to line. I mean, they were the two things that in a sense line, repudiated or pushed aside, we weren't gonna go there that they will things we had to push away and a century and the track catering, I think is recognizing that they are identities or histories when it win Bryce it was a sticky used to try and bake the opposition with he would refer to the liberal party is spills at the British empire and did so in in Parliament, I wonder if that ever stopped that actually stopped these policy from succeeding rather than trying to make it a bipartisan thing where he could reach out to the opposition. Or whether that would have always been to file look, I'm inclined to agree with that. I think Richard that that in politicizing. The became party-political. He was pretty aggressive about saying the liberals couldn't handle Asia. And that when now became prime minister that he wouldn't be accepted understood or appreciated in the region. He couldn't deal with the region and living with your blade that to be the case or not I think the politicized vision of that argument about engagement was which pretty unhelpful now whether whether another approach to it would've worked better is another question. That's we can't answer that we now have a lot of turned out. When Howard became prime minister. There's a famous story about on his first visit to China. He was staying in a hotel room might have been Shanghai Beijing. I'm not sure, but look out the window and source of skies writers and cranes and said Helen has this been going on. I mean, that's an amazing thing that actually surprises me like, he didn't know. Yeah. I mean, it's curious isn't Shanghai. It is. I mean, it is curious that you can't know that. I suppose again, given given the counter background that he had. I mean, he he's brought up within a British trillion count of Melia et goes to those questions about what you say is important culturally. And so the idea that that you know, way way represent development, and we represent progress where where at the pointy end of all developments and then to discover that another place is doing it is disconcerting comes as a bit of a shock. Howard said that he's approach was more pragmatic than Caitlyn's implied often that the region Asia nation was numb more inclined to say us as in meshed with Asia as he did do you think he had a point them? Yeah. I think yours resisted the idea that we could be accepted in the region in the way that catering proposed and he didn't want to and often. There was a misrepresentation of the catering view. You know, the idea that he wasn't. He was selling short. Did he want to destroy the become Asian or whatever which identical care some denting these any evidence for that idea that he was trying to sell us off to Asia in some sense, socially, culturally economically. But the idea that we were only get a functional succeeded Niger if we remind essentially a British European culture think is pretty much part of what Howard was thinking. And I think is is wrong actually, joining gauge with China. What was your first visit China winter charter in about ninety ninety three not long after Tiananmen Square. We had a exchange program at the university in young Joe. So always there to promote the great cause of his trillion steadies Jonah. That's always struck me. As rather lovely that. There is an interest in straightened studies in in Chinese universities have strong was that interest. How did you find that? Once it was in ninety ninety three was it was developing really industry was still not well understood as a a place in the firmament a lot of the focus was Britain in America. Then so we didn't feature very prominently. And it was the view. I mean, they've got their own lazy thinking about a stra to this week as well too. They say this is like, you know, America light or something Britain lot or something like that. Insofar as sources tool that sores. I think is and and I think this is still a very very strong viewing China. Let sources pristine untouched twisting pristine and untouched in. And that goes a lot to the to the natural world question. I mean, if the Barrier Reef goes under that's going to do a lot of damage to to this image because a lot of those images of beautiful, Australia and Pristina Troja and destroy go to an understanding of the natural world, mistrial and. Clean-air is. Assad their view of themselves as the inheritance of an incredibly ancient civilization where young and as a nation, we young and pristine as you say does. But it also goes to the recent history of China since not in the opening after Deng Xiaoping, and that incredible industrialization of China that huge transformation of community you moving from the countryside to the city and these tearing cities huge cities. So the China is experienced a dramatic, cultural and social and economic transformation, and that's a lot of damage environmental. And otherwise, so they look often to to the places which they say is as damaged and straighter is one of those places just been there recently, and I can't help. But notice when you got to hand the joint source stike joints. It's a straightened beef. Australian is a kind of badge of honor. Is is brand means good produce high quality produce. Yes, I think so I may not take as a serve the environmental damage. That's been done. Here is not something. That's we'll. We'll have. And menagerie thank me for this. But occasionally I have tried to put that you know, the barrier reefs in the spot above but the much interested in that. I think it's okay told tell me about once you were in China, the kind of long socialization process that takes place with banqueting and the like, yes, I mean, it's a very important part of hell the Chinese to business that you have to familiarize yourself with China, and the Chinese have to become familiar with your so Ross one involved in fitter us one in some good stuff to just quietly. And some of its more lecture tractive. And also, of course, the one of the ferals that I I was as being the honored guest in the China is conventions. Anyone around the banquet table, and they can be up to twenty them. Is able to come up to the guest and propose a toast, which is normally for longevity in good health. So after fifteen barges longevity. Same things receding. So longevity. Good health toasted fifteen to twenty people in Ross one. Dunk here. Twenty. This is this a way. This by which Chinese people typically extend trust. In other words, all learning. Think it is. I think it is. I mean, I think they need to know because they're seventy people knocking at the door. So many people wanna get slice of the action seventy people saying that huge market and celebrating over which has been going on for Decca. It's you know, the the idea that the China market is being the Vatian of Flanders economies around the world. So any number of people of bashing they do and now of picking university, which is the number one university so many people bashing the door there to get in get a get a slice of their higher education system. And so on that I think they want to send people out, but it's probably goes back a long way, you know, to the middle kingdom idea that you have to come in and present your credentials. You have to be accepted. Understood that will take time. And if you're if you're too impatient about this process, if you turn up one day, and you're gone, the Knicks, then they've side themselves a lot of trouble by not committing to heavily dealings with you. So that's part of the deal. I think at this time you're starting to deteriorate deteriorate hep quickly. Did that? It went very very quickly. Actually, I mean it happened over a period of. A better way came in. I I wake. Yes. It's an extraordinary story region. I was reading and driving. My my sister and brother-in-law the airport at the front end of this week in November two thousand four and I was technically legally blonde at the end of the week because the center of my field vision, they're the center of the retina pretty collapsed in both is you can be a bit unlucky for together both ours, but mine were brilliantly coordinated the condition macular degeneration, which fictive -ly main that they the sales which focused site severed. I'm looking at you rather than seeing the handsome gentlemen, you are I see a blur. And that's the center of the field of vision working if our swivel around a lot, which is unwise in the studio, I can get the peripheral cells. To get a bit of focus happening. Terribly. Let down if you do that really all on why? Sure, it's good looks to you. I'd like to remind intact. Let's do. Okay. So so it's only peripheral vision that you that that works properly for you use that entirely entirely. Your senior academic at dick and university in Melbourne at the time how did the university react to your new legal legally blind status. Well, I mean, the the university, and I think it's like most universities, and maybe most institutions in. This regard had some terrific policies, you know, their policies around disability, and San were pretty fabulous. And you know, you can only read them with marash in. But the problem with policies is always that they have to be implemented by flawed human beings, and those flawed human beings may not have read the policy, and you know, I've talked a lot of people in the disability community. And I think this is a pretty words pretty experience that that you have to go often capping hand to the institution to remind them that you've got this condition, and that they have policies, and what are the implications of those policies. So whatever when you did that. Well. Some some people were very good and very responsive and others others were not in remember one particular meeting. It was a pretty hard going meeting actually with with the Dane who wanted me to calculate the hours lost per week through my sight loss in order to produce a calculus for the kind of support that I might received. Now disability support is not supposed to be predicated on that that sort of calculation, but I produce the document I gave the Aaron judge we're at a meeting about four or five people in the meeting, and she said read, the document, you read the document, and I said, I can't read the document circulated that document you've seen it. You rated them. We could discuss it was put to you that it would be better for all concerned that you should leave. Well, there's a bit of that. I mean, I had a meeting in Leon Dane another day invited me to come in and have a little cherub this. And I thought that was not audio until I discovered the job like sitting there as well. And we talked about my condition for about forty five minutes and a lot of that was about saw it, and you know, retinas and some and the mating late food and gave me a big pile of paper and said David look at lucky to read through this. And, you know, just get back to me right on the year, professor granulation option and pretty clearly that was an invitation to check out my options and depart the same. So having picked up this giant wad of print documents haven't been handed to amend is legally blind. What what happened then? Well, yeah. What happened? Then we'll I I went home then with this giant words. My daughter was there, and we had a little chat, you know. I was looking your little downhearted I have to say little despondent. So she can told me, and then she went on to say that my compost bins were not working and really have to do something about it. They're just sludgy had three of them in the backyard. And I said, well, the managerial mo- don't bring me problems. Bring me some. She's got solutions. I mean, there are a number of them. But one of them is just to scripts Mobile's a piper and put them in the compost bin that'll hill, air writer and my little face lit up at what paper. So. Win immediately and started stuffing the paper and over the next three weeks. All those documents totally unconsidered unreflected upon when into my compost bins, and the compass was much pitiful. Become pasta out of that. Did you not? Not only was a compost. I busy. I feel a hell of a lot better for doing that. Anytime you spirit sunk you'll you needed to do was just castor oil on those compass, spins and your spirits would rise just walked. I just walked in heaven. Look all of my superannuation documents. They're doing good work. You still lecturing in China at university in the Beijing. Foreign Studies university their response to your your new legally blind status. Every human level the challenge terrific, actually because they would look after you at renmin university. I was assigned a student every day to make sure that I got to wear I had to go. And if I wanted to go somewhere in Beijing, the student of talk to the student of made, you know, go off to whatever it was. Which was great for me. But also good for them because they had a day with an English speaking person and a chance to get to know the visitor. So that level ever terrific. And they looked after the things that people in my condition have a lot of trouble with like steps. And so on. So they were great at that level at an institutional level. They were not too bad either. But they didn't necessarily want the higher ups in the university to know that a person is legally blinded bane, he spouted their programs. There have been climbed to say look on site too much about the fact that you can't say anything just behave as if you can. So there was again a little bit of a schizoid going on there. But, but I think as a human level, I think they were very good. And and it's kinda contrast with situation here where we have all sorts of institutional protections. But I think the institutional protections can sometimes main that way way can say, well that's being looked after by, you know, by the state or by welfare policies or programs or whatever. So we didn't have to worry about it quite so much. I wouldn't want anyone to think that this is the story of how at this point your academic career. Is slowly starting to wind down because the spot you sort of being edged out of your straighten university, you came roaring back. In fact, majorly roaring back when you reported the chair the inaugural chair of striking studies at Peking university in China. What was the nature of the work their new responsibilities, very pleased? You mentioned that Richard. The will. It's a terrific initiative, actually. And and I have to here say that bitch were enormously important in supporting that and there's a body called the foundation for strain in studies in Jonah, which sits behind that program. It's the it's the only privately funded a strain in studies initiative in the world. The foundation frustration studies in China, so all the money comes from the private sector. So they support the chair and the responsibility of the chair was first of all to do whatever. Teaching and liaising was required with Peking university, which is the number one university, but also to visit and talk to and support the thirty five plus astray in studies centers across China, which we had by twenty twelve twenty third and there's a few more now. So that was quite an extensive. Network. We have more threatening study centers in China than the rest of the world combined. But we're also facing a situation where a lot of the funding to support those initiatives had stayed pretty much the same for long time. And it's been a recent announcement that the government will be up that support with a new body to support the bilateral relationship, which I think is tremendous initiative and much to be welcomed. But so the chair was there really to work in with colleagues Peking university and to visit as many of those programs as possible and we've got to about twenty five of them in the three years that I was picking university from the fan off to the first half to the east the west of Jonah all across China. It was a fabulous position actually because my wife, Karen, I got to travel very extensively across China. Now. This is not gonna. Action that's engagement to appear at some of the conferences there to stations there. And while I was there. I must have been really quite stunned at the extent of ustralian studies in China right across China. What does that what does that mean? Those during the study says this straight in history training, literature straighten musical, what is what does that mean? There was a bit of a debate. When I became the chair bed. What it was going to mean? And my view was keep it open anything that engages the interests of the Chinese on the insta- side stranded studies. So that can include dry-land agriculture, which we're pretty good and in which they have an interest all medical matters for the most part, of course, within those centers, it meant humidity, social sciences and most of those centers had begun with literature because they were the people who had the language an issue, but they're broadening out now into international relations and hissed. -tory in politics economics while in China. I have walked alongside you through block after block after block of Beijing traffic from footpaths from walking about ten blocks and without a stick despite being legally blind. You find your way on airing -ly what's going on here. David do you have little subtle tricks or you just crazy? You just full Heidi. Do you just sort of fling you so forward and hope for the best in Beijing traffic how you doing that? Anyway, will normally have you may also have noticed richer normally summer steady next. Yes. You don't that personal view? If you're studying next to me, I would have been relying if ever done Richard Varlamov, he wasn't gonna walk on. That's why. Very or characters in there or students were was often very much supported in those ways. But but I have a fairly good spatial sense, actually. And I think going back to my my sainted mother who had very peculiar ideas on sides. She didn't want me to wear glasses, for example, shortsighted very short started from childhood, but she thought shortsightedness was a terrible stigma and in data ratio almost racial failing. You know that she brought racially impaired children. Really? Yes. I believe. Exaggerate. And not only did she bring racially impaired children in the world of the three children. She bought into the world the most racially impaired was made right? Yeah. Because I had the shortest of short side. So it wasn't allowed to wear glasses. Now, of course in in a mood of bitterness. I denounce this as being cruel and inappropriate. But actually, I think it taught me a whole lot about how to function with bedside seven very early on. You know, I developed all sorts of important skills like riding a bike with that being episode anything and moving around with very dim understanding where those which I think has helped to quit my for my light alive. So I think my mother in Dade you might even developed one into a superhero Spider-Man or dead ever with that special saints that allows you to navigate your wife through the world won't be making movies about you. I think I'm pretty close did. So what a pleasure to have you back on the program. Thank you said, another tortured as my pleasure. Thank you. Professor. David Walker is the author of stranded nation whiter str-. Failure in an Asian region. Casts broadcast and online this is conversations with Richard Fidler on ABC radio. Subscribe to the conversations podcast. To find out more just head to ABC dot net slash conversations. ABC dot net. Useless conversations is that website. Today's conversation with David will be available for you very shortly as a podcast, and you can get it from wherever you get your podcast from and also on that very website as well. I'm Richard Fidler. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to a podcast of conversations with Richard Fidler. For more conversations interviews, please go to the website, ABC dot net dot EDU slash conversations. Discover more great ABC podcasts. Live radio and exclusives. On ABC. Listen up.

Asia China David Walker prime minister Professor China Richard Asia Richard Fidler ABC Peking university Beijing government Japan Bob Hawke Cheever Aaron Paul Keating Britain Vietnam Richard
The Jewish Story Season 3, Ep15: Israel among the nations part III: Operation Kadesh

The Jewish Story

46:10 min | 10 months ago

The Jewish Story Season 3, Ep15: Israel among the nations part III: Operation Kadesh

"Thank you for downloading. The Jewish story nationally recognized top Jewish podcast two thousand eighteen. All seasons of this podcast series are available for download when you visit l MoD doppler days. Dot Org. Rob Mike Feuer is creating a wondering Jewish his podcast. And if you WANNA learn more about this, including how to join his patron page. Please visit, l. MoD DOPP parties dot, Org Slash Rob Mike. Let me, tell you one thing, said Ben Grin. It doesn't matter what the world says about Israel, the only thing that matters is that we can exist here on the land of our forefathers, while I'm pretty into existence and I had the great privilege of being in that Holy Land because. I'm Rob Mike, feuer and this is the Jewish story. Episode fifteen is among nations part three Operation Kaddish. So I know we're in the middle of a story and I'M NOT GONNA. Keep you in suspense too long with an introduction and I do WanNa plant a question here. The getting episode one that might be more pressing. Today's even than it was in hundred eighties in in the question is are the structure of international law, a help or a hindrance to justice and more specifically by creating a form of nations in empowering. Empowering it to the gym is an judge, the actions of its members does the United Nations further. The words of Isaiah inscribed. It's an entrance. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation now that the shelly will learn war anymore or by serving as a cover for the politics of might makes right and reducing international law to a stick with which the strong can beat the week. Does it push those ideals further away? And a perhaps more pointed question that flows from that one, which is specifically relevant to the Jewish story is. Does Israel really belong in such a body I mean after all we are the nation which dwells alone not amongst the nations, as it says over there in bar twenty, three nine, and the distinction between Israel and the nations is a principle of Biblical thought. But so is there ultimate reunion in the time of redemption that it'd be soon? Let it be now and as we're going to see today. The question of where exactly Israel sits amongst the nations, the United Nations in particular was a crux issue in the war of Nineteen fifty-six. Ca Daesh, as it was known in Israel, so like I said we're in the middle of the story, and it's about to get pretty exciting at the end of last episode. I hope he recurred that all the pieces were in place Israel had at long last secured its arms channel from France, and we left Shimon Peres working furiously to get as many weapons as possible into the country. Before the storm, he saw coming broke. Ben. Green is back and charges prime minister, giving free rein to his protege chief of staff Moshe Dayan to pursue the retaliation policy for all cross-border raids and don't forget as the casualty count rose, so did the Egyptian military's humiliation. In general Israel felt war in the air, the constant in cross-border rates, the blockades of the streets of Tehran Nassar's genocidal rhetoric in paper in on the radio waves, now Bagri may return his prime minister in one, thousand, nine, hundred five, but should know that his arch-rival Menachem Begin had also nearly doubled the seats of his more militant a route party. Begin was finally the leader of the opposition, not just morally, but politically, and his voice thundered from the podium, pressing angry, and for action before the Hitler on the Nile could finish the job. The Germans had begun. Meanwhile, the former colonial powers the Middle East Britain and France were struggling to adjust to that new world order. The French would deepen the bloody Algerian war fast approaching not only the end of their rule there, but ultimately they're retreating to near international insignificance. Sorry, if you're listening to this in Paris and actually call the failure of the Algerian war, the death knell of colonialism altogether. Now the British had already seen the sunset on their empire back in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, eight, really with Indian independence. Now I know somebody out. There is GonNa Argue with me that the British had holdings all around the world still, but practically they were struggling to keep their dignity on the international stage as well as toehold of power in the middle, East. and. They should have heard the end of that era when Foreign Secretary Selwyn Lloyd tried to threaten Nassir in February of Nineteen fifty six. The secretary was in Cairo to insist that Nassir negotiating what was rapidly becoming the Suez crisis when the Egyptian dictator stonewalled, Lloyd reminded him that we still have globe and the legion. Now he was referring to General John Bag Glove. You may remember from the war of independence British, subject commander and really architect of the British, trained and equipped Jordanian Legion. But Lloyd's attempt at colonial power play became a moment of the emperor has no clothes Nassar laughed in his face, and inform the secretary that King Hussein of Jordan had just now exile glove from his country, that news only reached the foreign secretary on his return to England. So at the beginning of Nineteen, fifty-six Nassir to be on top of the world, he was unquestionably the regional military power, because the Soviets had supplied them with enough check arms to give Egypt qualitative quantitative edge over Israel, the Arab world increasingly saw him as a hero of anti imperialism and a rising leader of Pan Arab nationalism, and if his rhetoric was to be believed, he was prepared to crown his rise by racing the so-called humiliation of nineteen, forty eight. Israel would soon be removed from the map of the Middle East. Meanwhile on the other side of the Atlantic United States was sitting on the edge of all this action, attempting to keep the peace without being the world's policeman, and that's of course, not an easy posture to take because remember the US is treaty bound to both Britain and France through NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and thus potentially partner willing or not in any military adventures which lie ahead in our story there are. are also pursuing an increasingly hard line approach to Soviet expansionism. We're only months away at this point from the so-called Eisenhower Doctrine, the president's declaration, authorizing the of US forces to secure and protect the territorial integrity and political independence of such nations, requesting aid against overt armed aggression from any nation controlled by international communism, and if you listen closely, that might include Nassir. He is after all at this point a Soviet client. So, we add to this mess. In the American political scene, a historic commitment to Israel's security bolstered by increasingly effective, domestic pro Israel lobby, but one that exists intention with Secretary of State John. Foster Dulles new policy of even-handedness in the Middle East and just when you thought it couldn't get Messier nineteen, fifty six is an election year one in which the Democrats heavily backed by the Jews are breathing down is Howard's neck. Not Having, led the free world against the Nazis Eisenhower believed that there was no chance and a meaningful and lasting peace. Of International Diplomacy, the United Nations was the crown jewel of everything he fought for in his is nevertheless he recognized the student was still too young to two-wheeled real authority, and frankly too weak to assert power so at this point US preferred to pursue diplomacy on its own and to apply economic rather than military pressure. And we saw at the end of last episode that practically speaking this meant they tried to draw Egypt back into the western sphere with money, specifically seventy million dollars in direct funding of the Aswan Dam Irrigation Project and backing for an even larger woulld bank loan. But Nassir really wasn't interested in playing ball with the West anymore. Maybe it was the power. The Czech arms deal the gone to his head, or maybe he believed the voices around the world hailing him. Almost messianic terms is the champion of anti imperialism. But no matter how you cut it. The American Secretary of State had already lost his trust in the Egyptian dictator when extended diplomatic recognition to the Communist People's Republic of China back in May and so when Nassir sent his ambassador to Washington to notify the secretary that Egypt was ready to accept all the conditions set for their aid package. Dulles informed him that the American government was withdrawing its offer financial support, and then the secretary of state added insult to injury. He released a press statement calling the question Egypt's financial ability to carry out the Aswan project without the aid. He just rejected. As the World Bank President Eugene. Black later said Dulles was really to blame for escalating the situation quote. It's justice. If you went to the bank and ask the bank to lend you some money, they might say we won't lend you any money. You don't put it in the paper that their credit is no good. Now to say that Nassir was enraged is a gross understatement. This wasn't just a public insult. He's saw the secretary of State's reminder that quote. The United States remains deeply interested in the welfare of the Egyptian people and not necessarily their leader as a veiled call for his overthrow. Now, apparently, the United States was also unaware that the colonial era had ended. They were about to get a little bit of wakeup. Call because I wasn't the only one who could make statements to the press. On July, twenty, six, nineteen, fifty-six, only a week, or so after the withdrawal of American aid for the Aswan Project. President Nassir declared martial law throughout Egypt and then sent his troops into the canal zone and announced to the world, the nationalization of the Suez Canal now, he wasn't subtle, nor did he hide his purpose. The tolls from the passage through this waterway would now go instead of two British and French pockets to the funding of the building of the Aswan dam. Now Nassir not only have a Soviet patron. He had seemingly limitless sources of cash and the American decision to play economic horrible had clearly failed in a big way. The nationalization the canal hit the British and France like a shockwave British Prime Minister Anthony Eden broke off state dinner with the King of Iraq to call an emergency cabinet meeting, and their denunciation of Nassar's act was joined immediately by French Premier Guy Mollet. The? Bridge in France Press reacted predictably with raid, beating the war drums and demanding immediate reoccupation of the canal. However public opinion outside Britain and France was more or less neutral, many just felt that Egypt had done nothing illegal by nationalizing canal that ran through its own territory others particularly in the developing world, actually saw Nassar's act as one of historic justice after all, what right exactly did the French and British have to control Egyptian sovereign territory taking in the colonial era by force? And at home and in the General Air World Nassar's popularity soared the council. The League of Arab States declared solidarity of Arab governments with Egypt and many countries actually sent letters of support in congratulations. Once again across the Atlantic, the Americans always had a slightly different view of events than their NATO allies to President Eisenhower and Secretary Dulles. The British and France had lost the game as soon as Nassir made move. The president did release a statement of concern over the nationalization. Be avoided giving any indication of what an American response might look like. Meanwhile he rushed ahead off was clearly British and French militancy. Nassir declared his commitment not to impair traffic through the canal, accepting of course Israeli traffic that he had blocked one nineteen, fifty one, and the Americans believed that the world had already accepted the nationalization of the canal by Egypt as fair complete. It would be foolish in. There is to consider anything but diplomatic means at this point. But when the State Department Representative Robert Murray, arrived at a hastily convened tripartite conference, British American and French. He discovered that their European allies were already planning for war. When he cabled the Eisenhower, he told him to the British believe quote Suez was a test which could be met only by the use of force in that the French government saw eye-to-eye with the British that they were prepared to participate in a military operation. Now when the United Nations was in one, thousand, nine, hundred, forty, five to its charter, principals were to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect, the obligations, arising treaties and sources of international law can be maintained. And the struggle which is coming highlights just how lofty and frankly irrelevant. Those sentiments were only ten years later. As a summer progress, and the British and French move closer to war, American attempts at diplomacy moved into high gear. England and France seemed to play along, but what the US saw as a way of preventing conflict, the Europeans really viewed as a delaying tactic one that would buy them time while they plan their attack in August secretary of State Dulles traveled to London for yet another international conference. Conference on this crisis, this one now made up of all the world, major maritime powers, and carried with him the idea of an international advisory committee for the Canal something that would work in tandem with the different government without violating their sovereignty, but the British and the French were not interested. They would only lend their support to an international body. That would actually operate the canal, not just A. The Egyptians. So on September third. They sent Prime Minister Robert Menzies of Australia to Cairo to present London proposals to Nassir one wonders. He got the short stick. Everybody knew that his mission was doomed to failure. Nassir would never agree to what he already saw. Collective communalism, a return to foreign ruin his land by the back door. And Menzies certainly didn't help anything. When he hinted that refusal to accept, the proposal would end in what he called trouble. You are threatening me. Nassir responded very well. I'm finished. There will be no more discussions. It is all over. Oh, how wrong he was actually. Just begun 'cause now. The British and French had their excuse. Diplomacy had failed in. There is really the only barrier that remained was eisenhower's opposition. British Minister Anthony aiden addressed a letter to the present calculated to strike a nerve in the man who had been the supreme commander of Allied Forces in Europe. Quote in the Nineteen Thirties. Hitler establishes position by a series of carefully planned movements. He wrote these began with the occupation of the Rhineland and we're followed by successive acts of aggression against Austria Czechoslovakia Poland and the West And then in clearly veiled reference, the Cold War eight and went on to say that if the International Community Loud Nassir to get away with nationalizing the Suez Canal. He's enhanced. Status would enable him to incite revolutions across the Middle East of course backed by Soviet arms. There was one last nod to international diplomacy on September twenty third Britain and France attempted to have the canal internationalized via U. N. Security Council resolution, but the Soviets quickly via the move as was expected. And Anyway. Weeks before this the French had already reached out to the British to move forward on their plans for war. Prime Minister Eden was more than interested, but he told the French. He wouldn't agree to attack some pretext that could provide political cover, and they said no problem. We've got just the right man for the job. Back in Israel Nassar's newfound assurance on the international stage had led to an increasingly belligerent posture across the border. The Fedayeen Raids Rosen frequency and Ben Green Day on responded with ever larger scale retaliation, and as the conflict intensified, so did the Egyptian rhetoric. We must be strong. Nasser declared in order to regain the rights of the Palestinians by force in midsummer only weeks before the nationalization, the commander in chief of the Egyptian army announced the hours approaching when we will stand in the front ranks of the battle against imperialism and its Zionist ally. A sensitive siege began to grip the country as the pressures rose cracks began to show in Ben Gurion's cabinet, not surprisingly along the old fracture lines between the activists and the diplomats. We've discussed it many times. I'm not going to go over it or even overstate the differences between Ben Grains, militarists and Moshe rates diplomats in the end of the day. It's always important to remember that each one believed both war and diplomacy were critical to Israel's survival, but whereas been green style was belligerent Sharif's was appeasing and furthermore. Perhaps the biggest difference between them was that Cherie had far more trust in the structures of international law, particularly in the United Nations at the end of March after particularly bad that eating attack, the cabinet held a marathon six hour debate over Ben Green's proposal to finally conquer the Gaza Strip once and for all and remove the threat of the fitting. According to Sharia diary entry of the day, when he insisted that war was not the solution net rather, they should turn to the UN. The prime minister scoffed at him, and at the international body. Charlotte responded. That were not United Nations. The Jewish state would not have come into existence at all. At which point Ben Green exploded. No, no, no, he shouted. Only the daring of the Jews created the state. Not any OHM Shwim resolution womb Schmidt. The is remote. Harlem the to the nations of the world in Hebrew it's. And it's whom Schmo means nothing, so you got to hear the dismissal in that. And Ben Green was far far from alone his dismissal of the UN by the way. Because throughout the violence of the nineteen fifties. Israel as a whole Israelis I should say looked at the United Nations? And the international mechanisms created to monitor the ceasefire with their Arab neighbors with increasing resentment things that were just meant to hold them back, and forth them to fight with one hand, tied behind their back, and furthermore Israeli leaders were quick to learn that there was a clear double standard operating in international law. You know passes the most blatant example of this comes in our story when Soviet tanks roll into Hungary crushing everyone in their way in the very same week that Israeli paratroopers into the Sinai but that story is GonNa lie ahead for now as a hard spring turn court toward an increasingly bloody summer, the activists within the cabinet began to press for preventive work against Egypt in particular, Shimon Peres and most day on pushed a strike the Egyptians before they can integrate the massive amounts of new Soviet arms into the military. Now I do feel a need to open a slight window on the psychology of this time less anyone listening think that this was simply warmongering or Roy reactive fear, and I think that the best way to do this is by quoting one of the most famous speeches in Israeli history. It was given by most of the on as a eulogy for Roy Rosenberg a kibbutz. Nick murdered by the Feddie in late spring of Nineteen fifty-six. Just listen to one paragraph. It's a little bit long, but pay attention yesterday. Don Roy was murdered? Let us, not today's cast blame on the murderers. What can we say against their terrible hatred of us? For eight years now they've sat in the refugee camps of Gaza and have watched how before their very eyes? We've turned their land and villages, where they in their forefathers previously dwelled into our home. It is not among the Arabs of Gaza. In our own midst that we must seek release blood, how did we shut our eyes and refuse to look squarely at our feet in sea in all its brutality, the fate of our generation. Beyond. The for of the border surges of hatred and revenge revenge that looks toward the day when the calm will blunt our Lert nece the day, when we listen to the ambassadors and maligned hypocrisy, who call upon us to lay down our arms, because we swore thousand times that our blood will not be spilled lightly and yet again yesterday we were dented. We listened we believed. Let's take stock today with ourselves. We are generation of settlement and without the steel helmet and. and the gun's muzzle, we will not be able to plant a tree or build a house. Let us not fear to look squarely at the hatred that consumes and fills the lives of hundreds of Arabs who live around us. Let us not drop our gaze less. Our arms weakened. This is the fate of our generation. This is our choice to be ready, armed, tough, and hard or else. The Sword Shelf fall from our hands in our lives will be cut short. It's worth listening to that again, but did you hear the elements? He doesn't blame the Arabs for their hatred. He only sees the reality that choosing to live for him means choosing to fight and choosing not to fight means bringing needless death upon his brothers, and he certainly doesn't look to the international community ambassadors of Malawi, hypocrisy who call upon us to lay down our arms for any protection, much less salve Asian. Moshe Dayan was the face of a generation which saw its choice as to live by the sword or to die by it. Now in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty six. There was a good argument to be made that this was the case. However, it's a world view which persists as a powerful force in our society, even today, and at some point we're going to need to consider if it's still reflective of our reality, but it certainly was reflective of theirs in June of Nineteen fifty-six. The activists finally carried the cabinet then green forced the foreign minister's resignation, and within less than A. A year most right went from being prime minister to Foreign Minister to private citizen. He was replaced actually by the famous labor. Minister Golden Era, but her story is one that we're going to have to tell another time you know the next steps already. Actually we've discussed them just a few minutes ago, US withdrawal of support from the Aswan Dam, Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal the failure of international diplomacy to check Britain and France on their weight to war. All of those events were being watched very closely by the Israeli government was almost as if Ben Graham for waiting for a call that he knew would come. For the summer of Nineteen fifty-six, the French connection had reached new heights, dozens of jets, hundreds of tanks ammunition beyond count were flowing into Israel. Beyond the arms, there was also growing intelligence cooperation, and ultimately an emerging sense that Franson Israel were allies in united struggle. So when the French Air Command Andrea Fray Approach Shimon Peres and early August and asked as a hypothetical question, of course, if we make one Egypt with Israel be prepared to fight alongside us. Peres agreed without hesitation. Ten days later, he was quietly informed that an anglo-french attack codename Operation Musketeer was actually in the works and when asked how long it would take the idea to cross the sign reached the canal. Two weeks was presses, reply? Now as director general the Defense Ministry. She has had no authority to agree to such a plan or even discuss it. He wasn't even a member of the cabinet, but as he later said in his memoirs, he would rather risk his neck than risk missing shut an opportunity, because here was finally the preemptive war that he and Moshe Diane had been waiting for waiting for. They've been pushing for it. And so in early September when the French asked straight out. If Izzo was prepared to attack Egypt in conjunction with France and Great Britain on October Twentieth Peres said. Yes, but I do have to ask. He cable lingering twice getting no answer, and so he jumped on a plane and flew back Jerusalem where he and most of the town teamed up to convince the old man that their movement had finally come, but still the prime minister refused to comment. By mid-september, the French up the ante, saying that the price for their continued support read arms with Israel's participation in the now certain upcoming operation. On September twenty third been finally cabled pairs back in Paris. Tell them that their dates sued us. Was All his message set? And so on, September, Twenty Ninth Foreign Minister Golda Meir and General Moshe Dayan arrived in Paris on a French bomber shopping list in hand and a massive airlift of French arms began. You know not an ultimate. The poet famed for his Megaza Kef the silver platter, really the Voice of the generation of forty eight, and in many ways, the man who replace Re v Greenberg as the poet Prophet, this time on the left he was allowed to witness the unloading of one of the French transports in his words I think voice to the fear and hope that were so characteristic of his times. Perhaps this is a native dreams. He wrote, but wide awake, and when I saw was the melting away of the terror gap between us, and the forces of destruction iron comes unsteadily in the bowels of the Earth Tremble. Now is goal in the coming operation. We're clear. They aimed remove the options from the Gaza Strip, and all the basis of the Fedayeen that we're attacking them and end their blockade of the straits Iran, but Ben Gurion distrusted the world in general, and he had many fears about entry into what appeared to be a risky and rapidly evolving war. He's journal entry of September. Twenty seven actually reads I made three negative assumptions one. We shall not be the ones to open hostilities to. We should not participate unless there's bridge agreement, and the agreement must include our defense against a Jordanian Iraqi attack. Three that no action will be taken contrary to the US opinion without it being informed. But it turns out that the anglo-french plan depended on Israeli first strike, and that the chosen the timing of their attack to coincide with the American elections in order to hobble Eisenhower's ability to react and so Ben Green Balked and Act Tober. Twentieth operation was called off. But Operation Musketeer a momentum that would not be stopped on October twenty second, a French airforce plane, carrying Bangui on Peres and Moshe Dayan landed a quiet airstrip southwest appearance. A new deal needed to be struck. Not only had the French guaranteed that their navy and air force would defend Israel cities. It later emerged that the agreed to share their nuclear technology with the Jewish state as well as a story. We'll have to tell it another time, and so on the third and final day of what later became known as the as conference I'm sure I said that wrong named for the suburb where it was held been green, presented a list of final objections, he was willing to cooperate with the Europeans, but not to be there mercenary, their goal was the Suez Canal, but Israel's focus was on the Gaza Strip in the streets Iran, both of which lay on the opposite side of the Sinai Peninsula. In so with much back and forth the plan, which emerged in response to his concern head, three stages stage one Israel would invade the eastern Sinai, surely provoking a massive Egyptian response. Stage to Britain and France would call for a ceasefire on both sides. It would announce agreement, but nevertheless continues to advance on the battlefield toward the canal, and its own objectives in the Egyptians wrongly invaded, which surely refuse any order to lay down their arms stage three then would be a combined British and French air. Fabius assault, aiming to secure the canal, nominally to quote separate the combatants who were refusing to comply with international resolutions. Nassir army would be crushed. Perhaps his regime would fall Britain and France permanent members of the Security Council's would defend Israel in the international forum, Israel would possess the Gaza Strip and the states that you're on in the Suez Canal would be back in colonial hands. What could possibly go wrong? The Israelis retreated to make their final decision and it's human. Peres told the story he in Diane worked all night with the allies prepare answers to all Ingraham's objections. Quote when we came back to the vill- in the morning, we wanted to show angering a map of the Sinai, but there was none, and so I pulled the pack of Kent. I was smoking and took out the silver foil in Diane, drew the map and the arrows on the other side. The Central Ero is as far as the midler. The plan was to parachute into the pass, and from there to move backward toward the eastern border. And so the plan for Israel's second war, in less than a decade was mapped out on the back of a cigarette pack. A two fifteen PM, October, twenty ninth nineteen fifty-six, four F fifty one mustang fighters race westward over the Sinai desert. Diving to Amir doesn't feet off the ground. The propellers wing tapes cut the telephone lines linking the three thirty thousand managing third inventory to their base in Cairo. Only an hour later, two battalions of Israeli forces riding french-made tanks, half tracks in more than a hundred GPS. equipment. They had received only three days earlier from the French rolled into gypsum territory under the command of Colonel Arielle Sharon they were headed for the pass. The strategic took which controlled the only way to travel east to west across the Central Sinai. At the same time, Sixteen Douglas C forty seven transports, flying low to evade radar, crossed the sky above them, and at five PM. They rose to fifteen hundred feet in the first of three hundred ninety five paratroopers of the two hundred and Second Brigade left out into space just east of the Mitla Pass. The paratroopers dug in the eastern entrance in a way to the rival of. Of Sharon's column, the link-up came at ten thirty PM. The following night, meanwhile we Sharon, holding the keys to the Sinai against any reinforcement from the West, the rest of the Israeli army swung into action. Heavy armor rolled into the city to cut off the Gaza Strip from Egypt proper. While later units race down the coast towards the tip of the Sinai Paratroop planes flying overhead. Phase one was an qualified success. Israel had totally surprised. Egypt would not I got word. He assumed that this was yet another Israeli. Retaliatory raid albeit larger than most he couldn't possibly know that he was actually what the French and the British were waiting for. It was their justification for intervention, and so these two happened immediately, and the world of international diplomacy responded like clockwork and October thirtieth the American ambassador to the United. Nations Henry Cabot. Lodge junior presented resolution in the Security Council calling on Israel withdrawal from the Sinai and with an eye toward England and France, requesting that member states quote refrained from using force in the region. While the resolution failed because it was vetoed by France and Britain of course, who then announced that their own ultimatum had been given to combatants, ceasefire, incompliance and To positions ten miles from the Suez Canal, it was an ultimatum that expired at four. Thirty am the next day. Israel is still miles from the canal anyway. And they had no intention of halting their attack, but they played out their role perfectly and accepted the ceasefire as expected Egypt rejected, and they had no intent withdrawing their troops from tragic position in response to invasion. They were sitting right on the canal at that time. The very next night bridge bombers out of Cyprus began to strike the Egyptian airfields in the Anglo French invasion armada sailed from Multan Algieria to put these three underway. Now are mommy sound like a very grandiose term. Altogether the force consisted of nearly eighty, thousand British and Frenchman on two hundred thirty warships, including seven aircraft carriers in more than seventy merchant, marine ships conscripted for transportation. They were carrying hundreds of Landgraf more than twenty thousand vehicles for the assault. The Hitler of the Nile was about to get the Blitzkrieg informed the approaching invasion Nassir except to the U. Ceasefire on November second and the very next day. Israel did as well under the assumption that it could force open the streets of Tehran before the ceasefire actually went into effect. But the French, cable them a warning, this was a violation of their agreement, and they threaten to call off the attack and so Ben Green withdrew Israel's acceptance by basically setting impossible conditions for the ceasefire. The British airstrikes intensified. Approached and Israeli troops race down the eastern coast of the Sinai. They reached sharm-el-sheikh the city of the tip of the peninsula, just as the European boats took up position off Portslade at the northern head of the Suez Canal. Ironically the war between the so called belligerence meaning Egypt and Israel ended just as the Anglo French invasion began. Now I'm not going to talk you through the details of the rest of Operation Musketeer I'm sorry this pointing to you though if you are a war history buff, it's worth reading up on, not only was it a complex operation filled with drama revisions and snafus. It was actually a testing ground for many of the elements of modern war for instance when the Royal Marines executed. Executed the first helicopter borne assault landing in history, twenty two choppers put ashore four hundred and fifteen men and twenty three tons of equipment in less than an hour and a half. That's pretty impressive in Nineteen fifty-six, but for our story, what matters is that? The world was not going to allow the British and the French or their Israeli client to play by colonial rules. As, the fighting raged in Egypt Americans were casting fifty seven percent of their votes for Eisenhower the timing was perfect as the French and British has plans, 'cause he was indeed distracted, but in Nineteen fifty-six America had one power which was indisputable in the Western world money since the post war rebuilding the rich economy, the pound sterling was pegged to the American. American dollar in that meant that the British Treasury required significant gold reserves to keep the value of the pound stable. Do a little research on international monetary information if you want but for various reasons Britain had lost nearly two hundred million dollars in gold reserves since September in market, speculation against the pound spiked as soon as British. Paratroopers landed on addiction soil. Anti this the news that Syrian sabotage and support of Egypt had just cut off the supply of oil from the Middle East one on which Britain was entirely dependent, and that the Americans were threatening to have the Saudis do the same, and you can see their economic crisis mounting Harold. Macmillan British Treasury. Secretary attempted to withdraw Britain's contribution to international. Monetary Fund in hopes of regaining a little bit of gold and shoring up the pound, but when he did he. He received a blunt. No, you see. The US was the largest depositor in the IMF and therefore held veto power Britain would get no gold until she took a ceasefire at the same time as this was going on the US are began to shoot off threatening letters to Paris. London and Tel Aviv now. In reality, the Soviets were not sorry to see the world focus on the Suez crisis rather than the suppression of the Hungarian uprising, they rolled tanks. Into Hungry on October twenty fourth only a few days before Israeli, troops crossed into the Sinai, but nevertheless the Soviets were not about to squander their newfound influence in the Middle East by letting their client get crushed. Premier Nikolai Bill Gannon's letter to Ben. Grin written while he was still stamping out. The sparks of liberty in eastern Europe is more than a bit hypocritical. Here's a good quote for you. All peace-loving mankind indignantly brands the criminal actions of the aggressors who attacked the territorial entity sovereignty and independence of the Egyptian state, disregarding this the government of Israel, acting as a tool of foreign imperialist powers, continues the foolhardy adventure, challenging all the peoples of the east are waiting a struggle against colonialism for their freedom independence, all the peace, loving people of the world this from the man who's grinding Eastern Europe under his boot at the same time. Hypocrisy aside the premier made a comment which deserves further consideration. It's something actually hope to do in a leader interloop of for now. Just hear it what he has to say. Carrying out the will of other people acting according to instructions from abroad, the government of Israel is playing with the faith of peace with the fate of its own people in criminal and irresponsible manner, it is sowing hatred for the state of Israel amongst the peoples of the east with cannot but affect the future of Israel, and which will place a question mark upon the very existence of Israel as a state. Now this wasn't the only letter he sent. And the premiers letter to President Eisenhower also wreaked hypocrisy, but in addition it contains vail threat of nuclear war as well. Quote the Soviet Union the United. States are permanent members of the Security Council and the two great powers possess all modern types of arms, including atomic and hydrogen weapons. We bear particular responsibility for stopping war and reestablishing peace and calm at this threatening our when the loftiest moral principles and the foundation in Ames of the United Nations are being put to the test like I, said the being put to the test in the Middle East and in Eastern Europe, but there's only one place he cares about and so. The pressure was on in Britain was the. The first to cave prime minister. Atan plagued by domestic protests, the Brits were not happy about the rebirth of imperialism and facing the impending financial crisis that we describe agreed to the cease fire on the evening of November six French premier, Guy Mollet was informed by telephone, and though he and his generals were eager to finish the job, they couldn't do it alone and so operation musketeer intended to topple the Hitler of the Nile and retake the Suez for the French and British came to a premature and after less than forty three hours of for. So Who won the war? and. There's one thing we can say for sure. Britain and France lost Prime Minister Aden sick and broken resigned in January of Nineteen fifty seven for France, the end was a bit slower, but by nineteen fifty eight French soldiers, returning from the failed were in Algeria, and in Egypt voted out the Fourth Republic and Pro Charles the goal to power. The son had clearly set on empire all together. I could also say that Nassir unquestionably one. That's himself. It seems that the Egyptian. Dictator may have never amounted to much at all, but now because of the cold, war he had a superpower patron to arm him, and the last gasp of colonialism sign campaign had made him a hero, the Arab World Nassir at accomplish something that no other country in the region had yet been able to do. He openly defied the West and came out on top. Egypt Syria Saudi Arabia Jordan signed an Arab solidarity pack in January of Nineteen, fifty, seven, affirming their commitment to Intra Arab cooperation, and really laying the groundwork for much greater, political and military cooperation to come Pan Arabism, as a worldview, swept the Middle East and within authors power grew. It will only take another decade before he's ready to wheeled it again. But perhaps the most dramatic symbol of the victory of Arab nationalism over European imperialism came on Christmas Eve nineteen fifty-six just after European troops departed the canal zone when an angry Egyptian mob in portslade surrounded the forty foot, high statue of Ferdinand Dila saps builder of the Canal climb the ladder. A few men place explosives between the stone pedestal, and the bronze statue, and as the crowd cheered, an eruption of smoke and fire toppled the fifty seven year old symbol of colonial domination. And how about Israel? Well at first glance sheet achieved immediate goals, the streets of Tehran open to navigation for ships coming in from the Port Vila and the Fed in basis in the Gaza. Strip were destroyed. There was even hetty moment on November, seventh when Ben Green made a victory speech the Knesset declaring that there had been a new revelation at Sinai. Claiming the sign up, and it's like never belong to Egypt an argument. The Jews had an ancient historic claim to the islands of Santa appearing Tehran that control the entrance to the Gulf of a lot. But within two days, things looked very different. The menacing letter from the Soviet premier that we quoted threats of American diplomatic and economic embargo, and even signs in American Jewry might not back Ben-gurion if you went face to face with. The president had him reconsidering his victory speech. The French and the British were nowhere to be seen with their promised diplomat cover from the fallout of Operation Daesh. As Israel knew it by member. In fact, the first elements of blue helmeted UN emergency force made up of soldiers from half a dozen neutral states were already taking up position in the canal zone. The last of the anglo-french forces pull out of ports. I, e just before Christmas. Israel tried to hold out I mean after all she had the most to lose and in an open address, the Knesset in February of Nineteen fifty seven, Ben Gurion expresses bitterness over the question with which we began our the structures, international law, a help or hindrance justice. For eight years, he said the United Nations has permitted acts of hostility. Boycott blockaded murder by the Egyptian government against Israel if the United Nations writes this wrong. That will solve all the problems that trouble, the American President, and ourselves in connection with the streets, and the Gaza Strip, and the question of compliance or non-compliance on Israel will not arise at all. Israel's right to peace insecurity is no less valid than Egypt's right to warn destruction. The people of Israel cannot submit to discrimination in international relations. We have believed, and we shall continue to believe in the conscience of humanity. We appeal to the American government into all friends of peace and justice in the world to stand by our side into help to secure for the people of Israel. It's international rights, sovereign, equality, peace and security. Grand Words but by March, one, thousand, nine, hundred, seven American and international pressure force, Israel, to withdraw the last of its troops from the Sinai. Ben Greens gamble had bought a few years a quiet. But at what price Nassir was growing stronger, the Arab world was awakening in Israel seemed increasingly isolated in the international world. The new revelation at Sinai. And another opportunity for the emergence of the conscious humanity would have to wait just a bit longer. You know before I. Sign off I WanNa, thank if you folks I wanNA. Thank all the folks who give their hard earned money for helping to make this show happen for keeping it free, and making it widely available and I want to invite you to join them. Go right now to my website Jewish dot co in the upper right hand corner. You'll see a button that says be a patron, and you can click on through and make a little bit of per podcast support if that's too complicated or more than you bargained for, you can also write me email at Rav Mike Feuer at g mail or send me a message. Message at Rob Mike Feuer on facebook and I'll give the details of hiking dedicated show to honor of someone with you today or in memory of someone who is now so happy to share that with you. Just write me I. also like to thank the land of Israel network. That's the land of Israel. Dot Com for creating a platform that allows me to reach so many amazing people. I WanNa thank our institute, he A. R.. D. S. DOT ORG dot. 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How brutal politics and righteous prayers toppled a Prime Minister

Conversations

52:54 min | 1 year ago

How brutal politics and righteous prayers toppled a Prime Minister

"This is an a._b._c. Podcast ever is back on conversations today nikki's and experienced journalist and political a commentator with the particular line of insight into the workings of the liberal party because she worked for some years as a meteoroid to former treasurer pitta castillo now my stuff has been happening in the liberal party in the past year or so if you hadn't noticed one prime minister has been overthrown and his successor has won an an election against the odds nikki server has been looking at the underlying tectonic forces at work within the liberal party and she she sees nothing less than a war for the soul of robert menzies party and she thinks that once you understand that then the events of the past few years start to make like since he says book on the overthrow of malcolm turnbull and the rise of scott morrison is called plots and prayers heineke high written. You never expected into this book did you. I never thought i would write. This book. Never thought i would have to write this book. I thought after i'd region road to ruin that it that would be it for me and basically that would be it for the liberal party because i thought malcolm turnbull would probably be allowed to to continue in the job until the election he would win the election and then at some stage decide to leave and hand over to morrison and then what would be the story in that they wouldn't be one so i run into very cassidy not long after malcolm turnbull took over the liberal leadership once again and you know the view at the time time was so widespread and you know i i held it was the timber would easily win that election to twenty sixteen election and he would go on and on and on and on forever but he was seen to have been crippled by the needs to constantly appeal to the right of his party the group of people that undid him last time. How did he try to keep that section of the hobby. Happy nikki. He tried every day in every way to keep that side of the party close to him and he was reluctant to do anything or say anything that might put them off side or put his position in danger. How close was he. You too matijas coleman and peter dutton during those years. He relied on them completely. They were his praetorian god. They were the people who protected him. There were the people who ensured that whatever policies were being worked out. Were table to get either through the cabinet through the party or through the parliament matteis was instrumental in getting the legislation through true the senate because of his negotiating schools with the cross bench and dutton was he's conduit to the right wing of the the party but typically the queensland of the early queensland but even beyond queensland so although malcolm's the strongest supporters were from the progressive wing that is people like george brandis and julie bishop and christopher pyne the people that he relied on most were matisse coleman and peter dutton just taking timbale out of the picture momentarily class coleman and dutton figures dutton and coleman as dutton put it to me. We're like brothers you see. I didn't know that i didn't think that was often reported. I follow politics closely. I'd no idea the medina's cormon and peter dutton was so close but queensland party that w i party i thought they come from different backgrounds but they hadn't will you would think simply by looking at them that there were polar opposites but in many ways they were like brothers. They got along extremely extremely. Will they walk together. Every day. They confided in one another. They trusted one another absolutely and <hes> their relationship relationship continues in fact there now renting an apartment together in cambria so you know they like brothers sharing a house together. Herbert julie bishop the second most senior figure in the party and foreign minister at the time. How close was she to mitya's coleman given that they're both senior figures in the wwl liberal party. They loathed while another. They never got along. They didn't trust one another and they were to a large extent in competition with one another not only only for the attention and the year of the prime minister but also in terms of who was the most powerful figure in the wwl liberal party. This is all taking place within the context of a changing liberal party membership from your observations. How has the nature of the membership of the liberal party changed in glossed ten years or so it did use to be what john howard described as a broad church there was room in the liberal bro party for people with a small c conservative view and with a small lil liberal view now ah the nature of the base has changed quite considerably. I think it's now conservatives with a capital c driving art god or not allowing room or making room four people with small hill liberal views they they are becoming a much more conservative party in all sorts of ways except economic. They're very conservative. I think socially early particularly on social issues what gay marriage that kind of thing it black gay marriage like a religion washing all those kinds of things but when it comes to economic matters they are not the traditional liberal small spending kind of if party there into big spending. Maybe lower taxes but really not not much in the way of tax reform. The liberal party is often prided itself looping like the labor party and less prone to branch stacking less prior to an organizer organiz takeover from outside institutions within the party intrigues them. I think that's what trotskyites trotskyites call it or something like that. The liberals were wasn't proud that they've not been subject to that. Is that still true. A any kind of relationship between these new new liberal party members to outside institutions solutions will that has changed. This is not really meant to be gender specific. They used to be a much more gentlemanly kind of approach to politics from the liberal party but a few years ago that changed and they was active recruitment. That's one way to put it could be branch. Stacking being is another way to put it of deeply conservative people who were recruited into the liberal party particularly in victoria from church choose from churches but also win family. I failed when that disbanded. That was a pretty conservative social grouping. They was active recruitment of their membership but also from churches like the mormon church and <hes> the spiel that was made to them was that if you want to stop same sex marriage the way to do it is to get inside the liberal party to be a member of the liberal party not try to do it from outside so that led to the recruitment of fails tons of deeply conservative conservative socially people giving the temple. I've been doing these very level best. It seems to reach out to such people why would alienated from me. They never trusted him. He believed in same sex marriage for instance. He was an advocate for it. They never did and they never trusted him because of that. That was a key issue. When the same sex marriage plebiscite was passed there was there was a real backlash rush against him inside the base of the liberal party animal of the very conservative liberal impey's he's was there a sense among this group of the party that they were just waiting for a chance just looking for an opening to knock them out of the leadership doc i think that's obvious and <hes> the issue that they alighted on eventually was energy change the real issue that was bothering them or was it more things like same sex marriage. It was bothering them but it could have been anything. It could have been religious freedom for instance. If it hadn't been an energy it would have been something else and like i say there was smarting over same sex marriage even though it had been facilitated -tated by peter gotten and tony abbott abbott never thought that the plebiscite would happen. He never thought thought that parliament would give approval for the plebiscite so he thought <hes> there were going to be safe for some internal found a way through by just doing it through through a postal ballot through simply much government order rather than having to pass legislation which came from peter dutton the data dutton's idea to have if the postal ballot which was a stroke of genius on his part is quite an interesting character darden actually because he he came up with the idea and then a very bright young man in george brandis is office came up with the other idea of having the bureau of stats conduct conduct the ballot but when it came time to vote dutton voted in favor of it because his electorate voted for it and he also did not vote for any of the amendments and when it was over and morrison had been elected leader and eh dutton makes the point that you know i'm not the proud evangelical here. I'm not anti abortion and i voted for same sex marriage but anyway that is not hair his public persona translate to many people who want to buy the idea faded out as interest interest tryst is going to put he's not. He's not way out on the fringes on some things. Let's say head malcolm turnbull been warned lupita header lean and hungry look in his eyes so this week he was any number of times. George brandis warned him in two thousand seventeen after her story appeared in the daily telegraph which brandis thought had been sourced from dutton and <hes> he complained to turn boulevard in. What are you saying well. He he said that dutton was responsible for it and <hes> to dismissed it and and brander. I just said to him look. Can't you see this guy is stalking. You and turnbull said don't be ridiculous. Brandis said can't you say that he wants your job and and turnbull said george don't be ridiculous as if anyone could ever think the dutton could be laid or could be prime minister and laughed at him are timbale it was funny the whole the whole idea of his prime minister maker ridiculous notion and no one would ever believe it so there were a whole slew of by elections and what was called the super saturday weekend when all those by-elections occasion by breaches of six and forty four in the constitution and citizenship in the like that didn't wasn't seem to have gone well for the for the term government at the time and that seemed to be the trigger for the dutton forces to make their move now at this point turnbull will did see them coming turnbull moved i he moved ahead of dutton's plans and calling a spill off relationship how well prepared was dutton uh-huh and he supporters for an early challenge like that will dutton head a date circled on his calendar for a challenge orange against turnbull but it was sit for a couple of weeks hints he was waiting for the next news paul which would have made it forty news polls arose that turnbull had lost and <hes> so he was planning to make a move then but then someone briefed up the story in advance advance that dutton was on the move and was preparing to challenge of course everybody read it and started planning accordingly and indeterminable decided that he could either live on his knees or stand on his feet and five so he brought it on on the tuesday morning. He seemed to do that with some relish. Didn't they into my thinks. He likes to get the jump on his opponents he does. He does really what was his choice this could he should he just sat there and waited for dunton to be better organized anti bring it on or is malcolm. Fraser used to say try and catch him with his pants dan. That's what he tried to do. In fact in some ways that worked what did did scott morrison tech view as malcolm turnbull treasurer at the time and uh making many many supporting mcintosh's leadership this comores and have a view on malcolm turnbull calling leadership spill did he consult scott morrison this they i did speak over that weekend before and morrison told tumble not to do anything to bring it on. He said to him <hes>. Did you ever see john howard. Call on spill against peter costello now. It never happened so he surged him not to do. It comprised a cold andrew peacock pretty well for him. It worked well for him but very different times at this time you say there was was a distinct camp for scott morrison. He did have a group of followers who wanted him to become liberally told me about this group of mims mims upon very small group between ten and twelve he shared an apartment with <hes> two of them in camera that was <hes> stewart stuart robert and steve vines and most of the rest were part of a weekly prayer group whenever parliament set that they would meet together and have prayer sessions and most of them arrived in canberra around the same time in two thousand and seven so they were bonded together by a few things by the fact that they arrived around the same time and they had the added glue of religion. There were deeply religious. People how organized they were amazingly will organized okay so three of them live together and on the sunday night another member of the group that is alex hawke who is also very close emit in the apartment moment they shared and they mapped out every conceivable strategy and scenario that they thought would play out during that week because it was obvious that something was going to happen. Strategy to what end to making morrison lead to make morrison leader was morrison in those meetings yes yes. He attended those meetings did he's. I put you put spreadsheet away. You scams later. Is that what he said to the well. Alex hawke head numbers stored in in his laptop for months which he kept updating it was fairly easy to draw up lists of who who set where and who supported who depending on the issue say on same sex marriage for instance where would people lineup and on energy would people are knapp who who side with aon so that wasn't too bad was a popular figure outside this group of strongly strongly bonded supporters quarters morrison did not have very many friends inside the parliamentary liberal party beyond that group so this group's rock solid but but outside that that if he had relied solely on on that group he would never have got any way but what they did on tuesday was vote strategically for dutton to inflate dutton's numbers so dutton god vote of thirty five and that guaranteed that turnbull would never be able to come back from that if it had been a vote in the twenties he might have been able to survive that week and then to go on but because as many as probably tin the turnbull people think of morrison's people voted for dotson it it ensured that turnbull was made terminal some morrison supporters voted strategically tactically technically klay for peter with any desire for him to become the later ever wanted dutton's later held him up if you like so he would would he would lose but not by much not as much as anyone force and that would weaken turnbull in the process that might allow their man to come through what was what was morrison supporters to robert sang after this ballot which turned one forty eight to thirty five after the ballot but even before the ballot stewart robert was ringing liberal party back benches and saying to them turnbull is finished. His terminal dutton is not the answer yeah and if you want to win the next election. If you want any chance of winning the next election you got to vote for morrison. This was before even the first ballot before the. I was the turnbull capital where this was going on. Turnbull heard rumors to that effect that robert was doing that and rang <hes> stewart robert on tuesday morning wing for the meeting and said if anything happens can i count on your vote and robert said yes of course do you remember robert voted for tumble could he could he voted for ballot and but i asked i robert if he had and he said yes of course he did and you know we'll yes. Of course he would say that wouldn't he and also they in the next day after the ballot. He said tomorrow soon. If dutton wins wearing hill we're going straight to hell you. You have to run. It's your patriotic duty to run and morrison said well. I'm not gonna run against turnbull and robert said well. I'm i'm going to start talking to people now and morrison said to him. I'm not authorizing that. It was not a red light. He did not say to stewart robert. You better not do that because nothing's declared he just said. I'm not authorizing that will that in effect was a green light so why they went canvassing so the next day after this leadership. The timbale is one but not by a big margin. There's a press conference and at that press conference this prime i'm an attorney and he's being flanked by matisse cormon and scott morrison and this is the moment when scott morrison was asked by a journalist whether he had any leadership aspirations having any indication they this is my light. I'm ambitious paid on your thanks. That sounds like a rock solid support but if you think about it you pass the woods on. That doesn't mean a thing this is my later. Yes true and i'm in business for him. Well fine. I suppose we're ambitious for each other to will in this world but that doesn't mean not running against him does it now it doesn't and and and it was a premeditated gesture. I interviewed morrison after and he told me that he had done that quite deliberately but he says he's intention was to show that there was not even a sliver between him and internal at that time but you're right it was center no so as you saying that his people are having those conversations with other liberal party members saying terminals terminal kinda dutton you'll have to have albuque- how damaging tumble were conversations that were being head very damaging to him because if you've got as close to a man that you know is probably going to put his hand up for the leadership saying this guy's dead right and if if you vote for him you're going to lose your seat. It's a pretty big incentive isn't it to vote for the other guy so it was pretty clear what they were doing doing and why they were doing it and they all knew what was going on. I mean it's not as if it was a secret inside died the party the other bugs standing next to that day was not as common finance minister the terminator how how happy did he look being asked to pledge support to delay sending next to nikki well. I had spoken to coleman on the monday before the ballot the day before the day before the battery dies before this press conference before yes and i'd also spoken to him previously because my view was so long as dutton atten stuck with tumble and coleman stock with turnbull he would probably be safe right and so i checked with coleman woman on the monday and said to him are you sticking with turnbull and he said yes and i said until the bitter end and he said yes until the bitter end and if tembo goes down i've talked to my wife and i'm going to go down with him. If tumble goes i'm going two on resigning that was conversation almost verbatim right so no movement at all from myterious but then on wednesday wednesday morning he'd actually met with turnbull and tall turnbull that he should think about resigning and handing over ed to dayton then came out and gave this press conference where he was flanked by mci cash and mitch fluffy other front benches and this is what he said it's with great sadness and heavy hot that we went to see the prime minister yesterday afternoon to advise him that in our judgments he no longer enjoyed the support of a majority of members in the liberal party potty room and that it was in the best interest of liberal party for the prime minister to help manage an orderly transition but to a new leader just two days before that he told you he was just gonna leave. Parliament rather timber went down yes but even a matter of hours before that he had stood beside turnball at their press conference inference and was asked about whether he was going to stand by him and he said i will continue to serve him loyally into the the future. Those were his words and then a couple of hours later he told toon boom that he was defecting to to dutton and then he made the announcement so he's loyally didn't even see the setting of the sun why why did he flip like that after having making these public and private avid assurances. Why did he flip well. There are a couple of theories one is that coleman was complicit. All all along in dutton's plan and in fact dutton had been telling people <hes> days out that corman had done the numbers with him and he knew that he had the numbers to topple terminal and he also had war gamed everything with corman. That is what dutton tall all people. The other theory is that common could say that dutton's campaign was floundering at that stage although although he got this vote of thirty five it soon became apparent to them that they had been tactical voting and he didn't really have all those numbers. <hes> tumble had brought on and dutton wasn't prepared. He didn't have any kind of group around him organizing. They were <hes> stories going around that he was going to reinstate effort to the front bench that cost him votes abbot was so toxic inside inside the liberal party at that stage that people were telling dot and they weren't going to vote for him. If there was any chance that ev it would be coming back so don and was in a lot of trouble. So what you're saying is completely contradicts what he just said he said well hang on dutton's inevitability but you're saying hey houston and because he thought he's friends. Campaign was floundering lounging and this was a way of saying to them. Look i'm taking charge of the campaign a._m. Pain so it's safe to come across so they hoped that by having coleman out there publicly declare and then to take michaela highly cash and mitch fifield out with him also sent a signal that the cabinet was even further disintegrating that tumble was finished and the dutton was the man podcast and broadcast. This is conversations conversations with richard fidler a._b._c. radio's. We were just speaking for their of matisse's korman's extraordinary <hes> backflip in in in spot the reassurance given publicly and privately that he was going to stay with malcolm tumbled to the bitter end he popped out of the first leadership ballot saying actually it has has to be done you know even within the lie party and other parties in the senate but not a coin. That's been highly regarded. Figure kind of a word is my bond type. Character spoken respectfully by the likes of penny and others as well. What damage has this done to his reputation in politics nikki well. He's still able to function as government leader in the senate right but i i think he has trashed his own reputation and his credibility. I don't handshake anymore. Do you have to get stuff done in writing the guy now what happens now well. I guess look there are two things amongst politicians. They seems to be this thing. Oh bill you know we all have to till listen the truth truth. You know when we confronted with questions like that. So shortens had some interesting positions on party over over the eastern internally manily daikin still function but in terms of public perceptions of individuals i think they would look askance scans and it would further erode their trust in politicians when you look at someone who does something like that who can stand beside person one one day and say i'm with him until the bitter end and then the next day stick anopheles beck is equal will help. Can you possibly believe anything that anybody says anymore. That's maybe that's the bitter end. E was thinking of back during this period the interregnum between the two leadership shit ballots pull the second one came on malcolm turnbull was making noises about using the question is completed up eligibility to even sit in parliament where he may have committed the break section forty. Four of the constitution prepared to use that as a weapon against doesn't to the point of saying well. You can't fight for this guy because you don't even know if he's even allowed had to sit in the parliament. How malcolm turnbull prepared to go to wheel that as a weapon against peter dutton in his discussions with ministers who were threatening to cross over to dotson turnbull was saying to them. He's not eligible to sit in the parliament because he's in breach of section forty four and if you if you want proof i'll ring the governor general now. I'll get him on the phone and he can tell you know. Constitutional cross constitutional crisis is the attorney general becomes important here doesn't it christian porter were played a really interesting role during that entire period he i was asked to get advice from the solicitor general about whether dutton was in fact eligible or not and camera prime minister. Give the governor general that kind of advice the prime minister i advise you you cannot i'm advising you as promised you cannot appoint the replacement that my replacements pay deductible gutless party later because of this reason turnbull believed that as outgoing prime minister he could advise the governor general not to swear in peter dutton and this was in conflict with what with what christian porter thought christian boorda had sought advice on this because malcolm welcome had been flagging taking just that kind of action so port assorted vice independently from the attorney general's department on what were the grounds rounds that the governor general would look at to consider whether he could swear in a new prime minister or not and one was that the new you leaders head to have the confidence of the house and the other that he could guarantee supply and as far as a porta was concerned dutton. John could satisfy both those requirements but according to turnbull dutton willis ineligible because he was in breach of the constitution you. I think this is another thing. I learned from your book that we came to kinda. Something like anonymous skated passed a nineteen seventy-five type mammoth they didn't wiscon- to worst if dutton the head of a throne timbale and tumble i from moment he would have gone through with that that threat to ring the governor general and said governor. You must not appoint peter because he's eligibility. Just in parliament is the question then what goes up to the queen or i suppose it goes to someone else or that would have been pretty wild. Wouldn't it would have been very well. Alden also if dutton had been elected and he had the confidence of the house would turn bullet voted for dutton one st majority had a one c thirty and i think that the cross benches would've voted for data n- either so you know missed step by that much as this so lucky in so many ways that it was morrison and dutton who succeeded. You've got a new book emma where you have malcolm turnbull tilling rupert murdoch that pitted wouldn't win avert in house. Why was he talking to rip murdock. What's what businesses rupert murdoch's why why is he. What does he need to be consulted in such matters here. I don't think it was the consultation right. Rupert and there are lots of conspiracy theories that go around on this aruba texan interested in politics. A conspiracy has just an established fact that the conspiracy theory is rupert came out to restrain to you know involve himself in all this and i think that is nonsense. He happened to be here. They had prearranged to speak before the events took place and the phone call didn't happen for a number of reasons. I haven't spoken into rupert obviously but i've spoken to people close to rupert and their view was rupert wasn't exactly you know breaking leg to try to speak to turn because 'cause he knew what was going to say to him and that is <hes> he was very unhappy with the coverage that he was receiving so that was that was the basic thrust of is there a conversation that term was complaining about the coverage particularly of sky and rupert. Were saying well you know. He wasn't taking much of an interest in the australian operations anymore that was lachlan but he would speak to lachlan. You know he's kind of moved on tom. From politics seen astray lissa so another ballot was to be held petition was put forward with however many names names on its demanding another pottier vote and malcolm bullets. If this was brought on then he wouldn't stand as later so that opened the field for three people that was peter deductive course julie bishop put a hand up and at that point also scott morrison then put his hand up because he said i was gonna run against malcolm temple and he didn't not not in the party room as such and so there was a three way contest going on there with that julie bishop what happened to her support base the natural support base amongst the liberal party moderates during that contest she got eleven votes in that first ballot which tipped her out which was humiliating but the moderates moderates were completely ruthless and pragmatic days before they done their numbers and figured that bishop could beat marson but she couldn't beat darshan because the morrison people would not vote for bishop ship against dutton so they knew that if they threw their support behind by ship she would not marcin out of the race but then the morrison people would drift across didata n- and they would not julia out of the race so they made a strategic as i say ruthless decision decision not to vote for her but to vote for morrison said that they could make sure that morrison succeeded kingmakers for morrison innocence the moderate faction. Yes you know like i said before marson probably head tin votes as many as twelve votes maybe inside the party room without the moderates without christopher pyne and what he did morrison would not be prime minister today. Who's the really good chess play here. I mean is it morrison morrison's people all of them. I mean this is really amazing. Chess isn't it. I mean propping up dutton so he wounds turnbull and and then putting the credit situation where it makes sense pragmatically for the moderate stint to join the morrison camp which is in essence quite a small camp of people the was the king-maker is the who's the just just play here. Do you think marson is extremely clever is clever. He's cunning. He's <music> machiavellian think yeah. He's he's supreme in is kind of arts right otherwise he wouldn't be there. They had a very clear career that of how to get there they had a very clear objective and they knew what they had to do to get him the it just worked out exactly as as they intended so i think he's brilliant at those kind of arts and i think he was brilliant in the election campaign. He's a very good good campaigner. He's very disciplined campaign. What we don't know really is what kind of prime minister he will actually be what out of the kind of policies that he will implement and you know where he's going to take the country someone said to me. They never really regarded regarded him as a policy guy but hopefully that will change julie bishop head felt humiliated by the lack of support in the room from from her on heroin faction within the liberal party like a support from the moderates but that wouldn't have stopped there. I would've thought the staying on as foreign minister. Why didn't you want to stay on as foreign uh-huh. She couldn't bear to be in the same room as cormon and dutton. That was what morrison told me after it happened he. He invited her to stay on as foreign minister. She says the invitation was half hearted. She wasn't convinced that he really wanted in her there in any case and he says that the reason she left with because she couldn't bear to be in the same room as cormon and dutton. She also told me that she was very disappointed. That despite all the troll murder and all the bloodletting that dutton in and coleman had inflicted on the government. They paid no penalty whatsoever. They ended up in exactly the same positions that they had before so so what happened in that week kind of destroyed the faith i think of a lot of people in the liberal party and and the way it operated christopher pyne was another who ended up leaving now on his way out he made a very gracious concession speech which was funny and empathetic and all that but he'd been saying to people that he just thought it was a hateful place parliament parliament hypoplastic hype applies. How did he try to reach out sumatra's coleman afterwards given that they'd been so furiously opposed during this crosses pine told me that <hes> at the swearing in when morrison was spent swearing in he couldn't even bring himself to look at korman. He was so disgusted with him so miserable about what had happened at dinner. Afterwards six weeks went by why and this is christmas version. I'm a nas guy. Christopher says and i felt sorry for him. I could see what an effect it it had had on him personally like he had an still pays a big price for what he did in terms of loss of respect and dignity amongst people so pine felt sorry for him and took him to dinner at the commonwealth club and asked him <hes> he did it. It's quite interesting actually because home instead because authority had the numbers dutton had the numbers to win christopher said so what malcolm made you you should have stuck with him. No matter what like you said you would but why that's interesting thing is because <hes> sometime later kalman also had dinner with steve chabot who was a mutual friend with dutton and and whom dutton had convinced to come on board for the challenge because coleman had done the numbers and was convinced that he would would be able to topple tumble and they had dinner together in in davos and and chabot asked corne about this and common said no. I never thought he had the numbers so once again different stories to different stories on the eve of the second ballot which made scott morrison friendly to you describe how he stewart robert. He's principal numbers mental saporta one of its principal numbers men. They prayed together. What did they pray for meeting. This was actually on the morning of the ballot. Literally a few minutes before morrison was due to walk from his office to the party room for the ballot stuart stuart robertson everyone else away and they had a few moments together in the office and they prayed that righteousness would booed exalt the nation for a non christian. What does that mean. Will i asked robert. You know what that meant. Whether that meant that if morrison won it would mean that brought to snus had prevailed and <hes> he kind of dodged urged but i guess that is the meaning of it and then as morrison left his office and walk dirt. He walked past the receptionist. A young lady called mill and said to mel. Please text my family and asked them to pray for me so obviously worth it. Several liberal women had said afterwards that they've been some pretty fierce bullying from the mile numbers men in various various camps. Did you find out there was much truth to that allegation. Dickey jane hume was at the center of some of this stuff and her pre-selection for the senate had not been sorted and <hes> she was contacted by michael suka. Who's now back on the front bench. He's a victorian quote. Powerbroker unquote a big supporter of dutton's to in this yes very close to dushan and and he basically told her if you vote for dutton your pre-selection will be reassured in other words if you don't vote for you'll have trouble coupled with your selection of threats are pretty commonplace in the world of politics they when you're trying to get the numbers for things but was there anything morstead. Is it <hes> i'm i don't know about commonplace. I think you know it came as quite a shock to her a for instance for to put so bluntly in so boldly lately. You know you do what we tell you or else. You won't have a job and then she was also called by michael kroger who is then state the president and he advised her to go round and see matijas coleman and whatever coleman did she should do. What coleman did is will that stage. Coleman head defected from terminal two dutton. You'd have to be following. His twitter feed pretty closely. What uh-huh wouldn't you and then and then another of her colleagues said to her that she would have to show him her ballot to prove that she he had voted the right way. Now i think that's bullying. I think it seem intimidation and i think it goes beyond the bounds and they obviously did two two women did as well and said miles also complained about julia banks complained about it and linda reynolds stood up in the senate asia and exposed at all so. I don't think it comes from nowhere. I think there were making it up in a sort of showed quite a serious cultural old problem inside the liberal party komarov said one thing to one person nothing to another person nothing to the meteor another thing to the prime minister another thing to whoever i suppose throughout this period you can say that scott morrison said that he wouldn't run if tumble ran and he didn't he said he hadn't triggered a spill bill and he hadn't has really been fundamentally dishonest hit your imagination or is he been pretty. I mean there's there's been sort of interesting trusting use of words here and there but as has been dishonest in any way here on the surface he was doing everything properly below below the surface. He knew exactly what he's people were doing and why they were doing it so he could appear on the surface as s. If he had clean hands that was the whole point so that he could come out of it looking like a clean skin while he's mates. Did all the dirty work. How 'bout tumblers a strategist. How do you rate him threat this period well. He's not there. He's doomed anyway. Do you think well he was doomed. From from that first meeting. When the vote was thirty five against him there was no way that he could recover from that now. Maybe it would would have been better if he'd taken a different approach and instead of vacating his position head actually called out the people who were trying to bring him mundane and see whether they had you know the guts to do anything about it. He might have board himself some time but look abbas was determined to get him from day one from the very day that he lost the leadership and he never lit up it susan your story though it's interesting up until the point is what ending and undermining and what handing and undermining but the moment win stepped up and really challenged at that point tony seems to have almost no impact on this story really doesn't he doesn't seem to replay it other than as a kind of a minor nuisance to everyone else in the party will accept that he was the specter of what could happen and like i say they were people who had promised gotten after that first ballot that they they would vote for him and then changed their minds after they heard that abbott was going to be reinstated to the front bench they did not want abbott back in any way shape or form so he actually cost darton votes but the scenario for abbott and the people who supported him like your ellen joneses and and so on what they thought would happen was that it data would win the ballot lose the election and then create the opening for abbott to come back to to the leadership and lead them back to glorious victory. That was the plan that was when i was saying plan was a fantasy option right. That's that's what accounting being on but they didn't count on marson being so clever and they didn't count on the moderates being so ruthless and sacrificing bishop to to make sure that dutton never got up to the plan then just simply switch latest insofar as was he then hoping that morrison would lose the election so he might come up again in opposition leader added also never had any time for morrison at all and in fact blamed morrison for the the first spill against his leadership in two thousand fifteen the empty chair spill he thought morrison had played a big part in that art and also helped undermine abbott by refusing to take the treasury portfolio that he was offered and he didn't swing morrison did not swing his numbers behind abbott so there was a lot of bad blood there. How do these colleagues feel. After abbott lost his civil ringer in the federal election designedly steagall they would have been a handful who were devastated but most the more rejoicing there were glad he was gone so we come to election night and scott. Morrison wins one of those extraordinary victories that very few people. I can't think of anyone actually had had predicted outside of his own party. The seem to come sub profound shock got to every commentator and election night. He said i've always believed in miracles. I've always believed in miracles. Does that tell you anything about his. He's motivation and the source of self belief. I think it does <hes> his faith is real and it is fundamental to to him the night before the election he sent a text message to josh frieden berg to thank him for everything that he had done and they done everything that they could and finished up by saying it is now in god's hands and i believe in miracles so the these are not sort of throwaway lines that you know he just puts out. There is a way of marketing himself. He does do a lot of marketing acquitting of himself but he's faith is real. The other thing that was interesting. I thought during the campaign was when he allowed the cameras into his church on easter sunday and we saw those images of him on his feet with his arms raised is closed receiving the holy spirit. Was that an accidental. The campaign or planned aspect took the campaign. Do you think i think it was planned and at the time when i was speaking to labor party people they thought it would work against him right. They thought in the research showing that people thought he was a bit of a bible basher an australian have never really warmed to bible bashes. You know there's always been in a kind of skepticism but i think that is <hes> changing in parts and i think it sent a signal to people of faith breath that they were safe with him. There was some early research after the election by the new which showed that in liberal oh held seats with very high christian populations. There are a lot larger swings to the liberal party then in other seeds aids so they think there is a connection and that seems to be borne out by the comments of some prominent labor party figures subsequently including chris spelling. We said the labor party has to find a way to speak to people of faith. The liberal party loves a winner like anybody does particularly the liberal party. They have this thing that they call the few auto prints. It works there. You win an election in particular one against the odds. It works strongly in your favor. Religious conservatives won the leadership of the liberal party scott morrison. The alito won an election and he didn't heidi's beliefs as you say. He was allowed himself to be filmed in pentecostalist moment there. Does this mean the battle. This battle. We spoke of the battle battle for the soul of the liberal party is over. I mean the religious conservatives and now the predominant election winning faction in that party. I don't know that it's <music> over. I think it's going to continue but i think certainly the conservatives are in the ascendancy when it comes to the base of the liberal party and the way to counter that influence is to out stack them so if this decking you should be stacking more so let's let's see if they can energize themselves to increase their membership from the more progressive side but i'm not very optimistic mystic. Let's say that that will happen. I do think that the liberal party is changing. It has changed and it will continue to change. I i think it will turn into a capital sake conservative party. That's how i say it right to speak with you once again nikki and thank you so much thank you ever is the author of plots praise malcolm turnbull's demise and scott morrison ascension. I'm richard fidler. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to a podcast of conversations with richard fidler for more conversations interviews. Please go to the website a._b._c. dot net dot a._u. Slash conversations <music> discover more great a._b._c. Podcasts live radio and explosives on the a._b._c. Listen up.

peter dutton scott morrison liberal party malcolm turnbull prime minister parliament morrison matisse coleman liberal party malcolm senate christopher pyne turnbull dutton morrison morrison coleman stewart robert nikki george brandis turnbull john howard
Conversations: Featuring David Goodhart, Author, Journalist and Public Intellectual

John Anderson: Conversations

1:03:51 hr | 1 year ago

Conversations: Featuring David Goodhart, Author, Journalist and Public Intellectual

"You're listening to conversations with john anderson featuring david goodhart well. I'm at policy exchange in london a think tank. That's very well regarded. He and indeed in australia and often in high school stranded speakers talking to you david about a book that i think he's quite fascinating the road to somewhere and i don't think i could sum it up any better than the remarkable. Jonathan hyde has john hot ulcer of the righteous mind the best and most complete explanation tonight of why things seem to becoming a pop in so many countries at the same time. Let's call it a commendation. I i would certainly want to recommend that people read this if they're trying to find a useful to for unpacking where cultures guy but david before we come to the book doc. Can you tell us a little about your own career as a writer as a commentator as a think tank and how you came to write this yeah i mean my own. Personal background is quite conventional upper-class. My father was actually a conservative politician titian so naturally i became a leftist. When i was young i was kind of more or less a trotskyist at university. <hes> <hes> i then sort of gradually move to the more sensible parts of the centre-left for most of my adult life generalist i i on a local newspaper up north in your can then. I got a job working for the financial times which included a period covering german unification asian. I was a foreign correspondent in germany at the end of the beginning of the ninety s and that i think sort of gave me bigger ideas not had previously the idea of going back and spending the next ten years becoming features editor of the f. t. What might have been seemed rather dull so i i set up my own magazine. I setup magsi who prospects which is a monthly current affairs magazine and that it never did that well commercially but but it kinda sorta thrived survived. It's still it's still exists edited from ninety five to ten. I guess during that time that i the magazine developed a reputation for although it was it was considered very broadly on the kind of liberal centre-left <hes> we developed a reputation for questioning some of the shibboleth so contemporary liberalism i wrote an essay back in two thousand and four cooled to diverse question chirac which was about the tension with it was really very much directed at the center left and questioning or the pointing to the tension between missile in a sense the to modern guiding principles the centre-left which remain the old principle of solidarity with the new principal of diversity in the extent to which these two things pull against each other but to some extent at least accept commonsense notion that people ready to share with people with whom they have a fair amount in common ready to trust people with whom they're familiar million that doesn't mean to say they have to have the same skin coloring prey to the same god but they have to have sufficient common norms experiences to to want to cher public space in resources in the modern welfare state democracy the printed word for word in the guardian newspaper. The main centre-left newspaper night caused a bit of a furry and that got me into the whole question of race and immigration multiculturalism and i ended up writing a book oh cool to british dream in twenty thirteen <hes> by that time it given up prospect but i'd i'd got very much into that whole subject it was really through through that that <hes> through a kind of in some ways it's starting to see the world from the point of view of the ordinary british person and not taking taking the sort of classic doa mba so liberal left view of walked <hes> what ordinary people ought to believe about the world and it seemed to me most of the people i met who had reservations about large scale immigration were perfectly decent people. They just didn't want society to change so rapidly they placed take place to store on on security in familiarity and and those those people didn't seem to me in any way to be bad people and i think that sort of gave me a different perspective on the world from the one that i i had as i say is this a relatively orthodox centre-left person for most of my adult life and i would i would now regard myself as a sort of centrist indeed. Probably the daniel bell american political typical scientists was also his political crato think sometime in the one thousand nine hundred and he he talked about how he was translating slightly but he basically said i'm kind of market-friendly doc friendly social democrat in economics. I'm a liberal in politics and i'm somewhat conservative in social and cultural matters. I think that's roughly where i would how i would describe like myself but also i think he's actually where probably the majority of voters i mean. It's the sort of hidden majority in many developed countries for all sorts of historical reasons. The party system hasn't reflected possibly hasn't reflected until now it may be that we all now rearranging ourselves slightly. Let me more around that kind of daniel bell vision but <hes> but i think partly because the left in the sixties and seventies the left went off in a very sort of culturally radical direction so notions of faith faith flag and family for want of a better term became roll. The discredited on the left sort of traditional values became the discredited on on the left at least for the leadership in the left. If not for the traditional core voters and similiarities ways you could say on the right the old sort of one nation conservatism evolved at least period into that morgan reagan thatcher free-market individualism so that so you so as i say you have you've we've sort of that missing missing sort of centrist middle has gone underrepresented. I think in politics we raise the just as an aside before we come to the book the reunification germany which of course in a way followed the bringing down of the berlin wall the end of the cold war at that stage. I think most of us route to mystic democracy one out the white afraid has way sword the waist was essentially secure and that would spread across the globe and appeared of enlightenment in fact now. We seem to be deeply fractured amongst ourselves ourselves. We're almost at will with ourselves when i look at america in particular now briggs it here instead of focusing on the need for some degree degree of unity in the face of external challenges. We're what will that sells yup and i think if you look back to say the yeah the late eighties his early ninety s it was it was the beginning of this extraordinary run of over twenty five thirty years of opening of of western societies abc's and i think you know ten player and others talk about how left the right has become replaced by open v closed which i think is very very very self serving way of looking to. I've never met anybody who wants to live in a closed society but i think a lot of people in our societies feel fools of openness that evolved after the end of the cold war <hes> when not in their interests and they've used the the opportunity of the democratic vote to push back against it. I think what we're seeing now with brexit with trump european populism. He's a kind of rebalancing. It's sort of correction in some ways because i think if you look at what happened after after the end of the cold war you had like i say this extraordinary openness nisus. Even the center left part is essentially said you know we have to we have to adapt to globalization rather than globalization adapting nothing to us. Just surely we should be looking at it so robert reich his famous book robert rush bill clinton's labor secretary and his famous book book. The work of nations essentially said we go to roll with globalization but don't worry he said to reassuring the traditional blue collar base of the democratic party auty. We will read frame new. You'll you may lose your job in the steelworks will retrain technician and labor here in britain was saying so new labor were saying similar kinds of things things of course he didn't happen. We didn't retrain anybody. Essentially the only country that did germany because co-determination laws any large company making significant redundancies has to have a social plan and those social plans often did require people to be retrained. It didn't in the anglo-saxon countries simply didn't happen so you got the you know the as people now say the supply chain moved to china and vietnam and places you had absolute devastation devastation of many traditional industries and hunting very very quickly again places like germany happen more slowly and people were able to add to it but there was a kind of ruthlessness about it which was still a factor i think in the brexit vote some of those de industrialized places that deindustrialized in the seventies and eighties and nineties were you still living with that feeling that they had they had been ignored in behind now. They weren't the only people that voted the brexit or or trump in america by any means but it was one of the sort of cool constituencies. I think of the of the reaction against openness so you you had you had china joining the w._t._o. In two thousand and one you had the massive expansion of higher education in in all of these societies on this the increasing belief that it was one form of human aptitude cognitive ability that was really the defining marker of status you had the diminishing respect attached to manual and technical patients to carrying ocupation and so on we're now when are beginning to regression is going to have to redress in some way <hes> you got significant sections of our societies feeling that yes the the people who are running society increasingly living by different values to them really different standards different priorities different jewish ins and taking on social and cultural matters actually although there were economic divisions created by the opening up of our societies both in terms onto trade and of course in terms of significant indeed historically unprecedented levels of immigration and these were these were very disturbing living to lots of people and the kinds of people usually liberal minded graduates who increase me running society's. I._t.'s had no sympathy a tool with those reservations that people were beginning to develop about about speed of change about the degree of openness and so on <hes> i did too which of course had a lot of events destroyer events that we had the we had nine eleven and the and the the iraq war reaction to it and the mess that was made with that we had the financial crash in two thousand and eight we had the we have the euro crisis. This is twenty eleven twelve. We had the refugee crisis in two thousand fifteen. We also had in in europe. We had a good uh-huh huge surge towards rapid integration again with sort of national ethos driven by kind of national ethos. We had a ah back in one thousand nine hundred two with the maastricht treaty. We had the beginnings of the euro than the decision to go for political not an economic euro a political the euro those clearly going to cause problems down the road as it did after the financial crisis we had you know just the weakening of national social social contract substantial weakening of national social contracts in in the way in which say in two thousand and four we had the incorporation of the former communist countries into the e._u. And countries like britain didn't use the you are allowed to have a seven year period before you compete. You opened your labor the market for various political reasons we didn't use that seventy s so we had a huge surge by half people came from central and eastern europe over three or four year period. Did the prediction had been fifteen thousand a year would come again not that belief that somehow the the people up. There didn't really know what they were doing. <hes> so you had all of those all of those sort of forces four it <unk> weakening a lot of <hes> traditional institutions we will becoming increasingly secular increasing individualistic <hes> increasingly <hes> hostile to a tradition to authority a lot of people with small c conservative willed us. I think feeling increasingly sort of threatened left by the direction society. Let's useful say gray into the tools that you give us in the right to someway the populist phyllis revolt and the future of politics your account of pretty odd he in this is listening terms of the old ideas of economic classen awesome privilege and disadvantage and what have you and much more in terms of clashing values and you've come up with this extraordinarily. I think useful concept of some ways preps fifty percent or a little more of the population anybody's anyways rather preps twenty five percent in between us and then one extreme the authoritarians and the other the true global villages for whom nowhere is home. Can you unpack that a bit for us because it is really. I think it would be valuable to get our minds around what you mean by these times yeah yeah now i'm gonna i'm. I seemed to struck a chord of these with these labels. <hes> which one of the reasons i think the the the book has done rather better than i expected. <hes> just crept into the bestseller list number ten for one week two plus two bestseller all of the paperback but the <hes> the by the way to say the beginning i invented these labels are having been tested the the will the value groups groups that that lie behind them. Let me just explain what i'm essentially talking back. As you say is that there's been a shift partly results of of this great opening up that we were just talking about that has been a sort of politics. Oh shifted somewhat <unk> on its axis socioeconomic issues the old arguments it's about state versus market scaler public spending degree redistribution levels of taxation so these disputes have obviously not gone away and they still remain clean some of the some of the bread and butter of politics. They've been joined by leaving overshadowed. You might say in some respects by what might cool sort of socio cultural issues move move value issues issues to do with security and identity and borders and boundaries and who are we and issues of belonging in a meaning actually in that context of sociocultural politics value divisions become so much more than their full value groups and who who sees the the world through which prison becomes more the sort of central defining stuff of politics and <hes> so you know just just to impact my my definitions bit more so that the people that see the world from anyway twenty twenty five percent of the population as you say tend to be possibly be more than that now possibly third up to third in some of the most developed countries of the world they tend to be highly educated at least degree level off <hes>. They tend to be quite mobile. That's particularly true in in this country the u._k. <hes> somewhat less during america's from western continent europe. I think i think australia to people often go to university in their hometown here. That doesn't really happen the vast authority people we still have overwhelming residential universities and that's that's a very big factor. I think in in in helping to sort of divide people in a way so you leave your hometown. What are your social class background. You leave your hometown at the eighteen or nineteen trouble one hundred and twenty miles whatever to to another place you join you create new networks. You may never go back to your hometown. At least to live permanently you join a another other networks of people you probably ori than if you'll relatively successively probably the income the london for few years work abroad forbid <hes> you become much more directed and that's kind of neither good nor bad thing but it's a fact and it means that you're much less likely to know somebody socially who's he's a plumber or an electrician and it was interesting when when i was going around talking about my book <hes> in the months after the brexit vote would often ask people you know how many people in the room brexit in one or two people hands up and then i'd say to the vast majority of you've remains you know how many of you remains actually know anybody who voted brexit and the game we only one or two people who put their hands up you did get this real sort sort of social and geographical divide but anyway so so back to the anyways tend to be educated mobile and they value the things that you expect act educated mobile people to value openness autonomy. They have an interest in some ways particularly the sort of higher created intellectual and they have a kind of interest in and the free flow of ideas and and see borders as a somehow inherently disagreeable things things the other thing about anyways and obviously on generalizing enormously but i did spend a lot of time with my nose in the british social attitude shoot surveys so when i say twenty five thirty percent of the population have these broad worldview view attitudes i'm and i there is evidence behind it. You know it's in the data is the academics like to say the book is full of data to a <hes> <hes> acquaint number heavy <hes> <hes> but the one of the key things to understand the anywhere will view <hes> <hes> apart from those things i've mentioned <hes> is the the way in which people develop their identities the notions of who they are and i think if you are there's the american sociologist talk parsons famously talked about a spectrum and identity the spectrum from an achieved identity to an ascribed identity now we will have a mixture of both but anyways tend to have overwhelmingly achieved the identities meaning that their sense of themselves comes from their own achievements earn actions. They've passed exams when they young. They went to more or less good university. They've had more or less successful professional career so their sense of themselves as i say derives from their own from their own actions and abilities so it seems to them and that means their identities kind of quaint portable that can porce but they're portable and <hes> it means. It's you can fit in any way they're sort of individually seals anyways even if they're quite left wing in their beliefs as many them all aw tend to be highly individualistic parties result of their own their own life history of being mobile <hes> that sense of identity very individualistic thing and as a result of that they they tend to be comfortable with with social change they can they they can serve social fluidity comfortably you look at the other the other big fuzzy will do group the people you see the will from somewhere. They are the kind of other side of the coin. They tend to be much less. Well educated. They tend to be much more rooted. Still about sixty sixty five or seventy british population live within fourteen miles where they lived sorry within twenty miles of where they live when they fourteen years old so some ways not that unusual in being pretty pretty rooted and they value the things that that you would expect more rooted people the value familiarity security and so on they also tend to have again the the other side of the coin to anyways they also tend to have their identities tend to be ascribed end of the spectrum which means there since themselves comes much more from place in group that the a place they come from you know they're they're working class jordi or their scottish farmer they they belong to a certain to send group group on occupational group or just place and that means it then that the ascribed dentists their sense of themselves is more open into being discomforted by rapid social change you know if the place they live in changes because of gentrification or immigration whatever that can um that can discomfort them because you know that it's sort of it's impacting apart themselves whereas anyways to refloat above it and not feel so affected so i think those i think the key differences in terms of the way these things have played politically between the anywhere group twenty five thirty percent of the population and completely dominant culturally and politically once you stress and the much less politically influential somewhere as big a proportion of the population of a vacation but much we much weaker political voice the two things that really distinguished them. I think our attitude to social change anyways basically happy with it. Some ways always unhappy with it depends what the social changes but more skeptical about it changes often seen as loss not always but often because of this sense themselves coming from place and group so attitude social change and attitude to group attachment anyways tend to look raw rather look down on it suspicious effective. It's particularly has any sort of ethnic content to it. It must have been somewhere b. b. Xenophobic if you're very strongly attached to an in group then you must be hostile to out groups which which actually if you look at the psychological literature is not true tool you can be very strongly attached to in group and still be perfectly open to outsiders the two things don't follow a tool but so yeah so that you got those key differences. I think those key differences played out on the on the stage of of one politics. People often say this sounds very crude and binary your anyways and you're somewhere and of course some level. It is <hes> what i would tell you read the book. There are extensive shades of gray as you mentioned earlier. There are lots of different kinds of anywhere lots of different kinds of some ways at the bottom end. You have three refined percent of the population bottom under the some ways three five percent perhaps to pretty much xenophobic authoritarian end of the scale then at the top of the anyways you got is you say you go get a global villages people live in transit lounges and have much more connection outside their countries and they do inside the kind of people that <hes> theresa may popat in her famous speech about if you're a citizen citizen of the world eurocitizen no way also big in between a group <hes> who almost equally so share that the two main value group <hes> <hes> priorities and intuitions so that that's my sort of broad schemer and i think i think it's it's it plays out my most of my stats. Most of my observations come from the u._k. But i think i think it does work. I think it works substantially for for australia of the country that we have in common with america to parts of continental europe but it's different in you. <hes> you know these things differently in different places so out of all of that david it seems important to emphasize that these groupings transcend the all divisions nations of left and right someways will vote across the political party spectrum. Anyways will bite across them. This is a new way. I have looking at it as a clash of values and we'll views of assault. That's quite different at the most basic it's liberals versus morsi conservatives although i think it's it's also somewhat movement but yes an are up party system which is still based on on the old i left right assumptions sort of working middle class assumptions have really come lost. <hes> lost their purchase. Will we seen in much of continental europe. The traditional center-left parties have more or less disappeared in most places and you've seen the rise of national populist parties that have taken a lot of the old working class vote and you've got <hes> green partisans and far left parties that are taking a lot of the liberal liberal graduate vote and in in the u._k. In the labor party has has essentially become a liberal graduate carty compete <hes> pity donated by by liberal graduates. <hes> working class voice is very weak indeed. There's still institutionalized trade union voice. Yeah we all beginning to see. I think i mean the parties of the centre right in some ways. Find it easier. I think to to to adapt to these new image. It's it's easier for parties of the centre right. I think to move somewhat to the left on economics. I mean if you're if you're you're looking to capture what i described. Earlier is the kind of hidden majorities that you know someone left on economics liberal in politics some conservative on social and cultural matters. It's easier for the policies that central right i think to capture that majority or ought to be easier for them to be flexible economics than it is easy than it is for the politics of the left ba- flexible on culture. I mean you know the the young radicals in most left parties. I mean it would would rather kill kill themselves and have a highly restrictive immigration policy <hes> or you know a a a a pro family <hes> more conservative family politics so that there ought to be kind of inbuilt buys to the center item and it it doesn't seem like that and it doesn't an and it is also true. I guess that the the sort of small c conservative centre-right people in all societies are are having to contend with a dominant culture which is which is very much shallow liberalism <hes> through public broadcasting shutian through the cultural domination the nation of universities so like as i was saying earlier i mean the the the anywhere class. If you wanna put it like that he's overwhelmingly dominant both economically politically and culturally it has a center right and center left sort of element to it but if you look at almost any area of policy in the knowledge-economy very terminology economy tells you you know that the people who benefit most from into the highly highly educated you seen hollowing took over those middle middle income middle status jobs. He's seen a huge loss of status to non graduate employment forty percent certain jobs in that graduate only in a country like the u k. It's not that different in australia. <hes> and lee look look across the whole sort of policy spectrum spectrum education massive expansion of higher education universities are anywhere institutions politics along so when they always exist to pump out anyways and we've seen certainly in this country and neglect of of traditional the occasional manual technical training so we have a huge. We have huge skills gap. We've usually overproduced generalist bachelor degrees and low level ships in the kind of manual technician skills. The modern economy still needs were where we're missing. We've developed technocratic politics that again anyways perfectly comfortable with the they get the idea of sharing sovereignty we need to we need not just international cooperation. Everyone can see the point and international cooperation but anyways wanna go further than that and kind of dissolve national decision-making into <hes> into committees of the w._t._o. Or committees of the european union <hes> <hes> and they don't feel paulie. I think if you have a degree of sovereignty in your own life you kinda worry less about your a nation's sovereignty. I think if if you have less sovereignty as many many ways do pretty dull nine to five kind of jobs not all by any means but many do they feel they don't have a huge want sovereignty in their lives and so they looked that political leaders into their nations to you know to achieve to achieve decisions that represent their interests on their behalf and when they see more and more things disappearing from parliament including absolutely basic existential things like you know who is allowed how to come into the country and who isn't they become anxious about that and wanna push back against it and that's exactly what they have done which is is why we're leaving the european union we will presumably end free movement at least in its current form so i think you got you got the push back against technocratic the credit politics you got you got a huge nation of anywhere interest both economic paul seen education policy. You could even say in kind of family and gender policy. I'm i'm in the anywhere. People tend to be very public. Realm people they men or women they tend not to they tend not not to value domesticity very highly and actually most people do when for most people there their family and friends regionally important things in their lives <hes> and you have you got this evolving nation the men and women and not only equal but in some ways the same people of the hidden majority. Do you get that isn't true. I'm to put it to put it bluntly and they they have you know they have diamonds at a not particularly radical you know they want national borders it a well maintained against immigration per se they want modest levels of immigration gratien decently controlled national borders. They want national citizen rights before universal rights. They want decent options for kids that are not going to university not like say when it comes to things like family policy at the moment all family policy in many western countries is essentially about making as is easiest possible for both both parents to spend as little time in the family as possible. <hes> and most people don't agree with that actually most people would like for it to be possible for one parent usually but not always the mother to actually spend time at home when children very young and for the for the tax assistant make it possible to do that. I must have deeply struck by the research annual booklet evidences what you've just said because they got inside that publicly we now we'll get you condemned but the data tells you that people really do want to create a stable home environment where there's a lot of access to the kids for the kids to their parents and the mother's particularly feel strongly about that than than i would have believed from the public country entry yeah yeah i mean. We don't want to go back to the nineteen. Fifties is absolutely clear. The whole genda balances changed you. Ah has changed radically but equally people don't want to abolish the gendered division of labor completely. They want to adapt it and when children young you know. Most women want a male breadwinner. They won't the security that they want to then be able to return to work part time initially initially but they many women not all women but many women place family responsibilities above the public realm of work and career and someone one of the women don't and people should be allowed that choice <hes> pluralism and so often anywhere supposed- visit liberties is actually the tends to be the kind of enforcement off a particular anywhere worldview an is an is an israel the unplanned thoroughly stick it saying one set of choices of the jesuits in another set of choices on nought and i think the i mean that sort of anywhere that's been kind of a lack of emotional intelligence. I think many anywhere people particularly political class anywhere is have been essentially until the pushback until a suppose symbolized by the year twenty sixteen with brexit and trump until twenty sixteen. I think lower anyways when not sufficiently aware of their domination nothing one of the one of the things to have come into the last two or three years. <hes> populist wt you like politics is that it's very difficult now for anyways not to be seen a kind of you've seen a sort of division amongst anywhere politicians and some some of them. Perhaps represented by theresa may sort of feeling admonished almost embarrassing. It's true. We weren't listening to people you know. People who've been telling us for years and years they don't like that feeling of the erosion of national sovereignty and national democratic accountability. They don't like the unprecedented levels immigration etc cetera et cetera but we haven't been listening to them because we thought we knew better. We could sort of see for them. We understood the world but them and we were just getting home with doing what we thought was right and you know the democratic reins of sort of pull them back and they're expressing some atonement and on the other hand you get the kind of the more extreme anyways who say damn that you know we're. We're the decent people that barbarians you know. We've got to protect ourselves goes from this kind of irrational myopic so somewhere attitude and you see it's interesting to see some some people have kind of moved into different camps on that but i think it is certainly true that the idea that that that being more educated in itself makes you make your judgments better. We'll makes you wiser is obviously not the case. I mean so you sort of see it every day in the newspapers on television or you hear it on the radio in that the the the the confirmation bias the group think <hes> <hes> applies just as much practice in some ways more to anyways than it does to some ways you know someone is often because they're not highly educated. They're often more humble. The world always is a very prejudiced whereas anyone is have a have an ability because they can manipulate words and numbers often often similar better than some way someways they sort of they believe they they exist on a sort of higher rational plane and it's quite obvious that they don't had like i say the justice subject groupthink indeed in some ways more hostile they have more politically polarized views and there's been quite a few survey's about you know. Would you objective your son or daughter. Merida a brexit vote or or equivalent and liberals are much more style oil than conservatives to integrate mixing. It does seem that one of the issues <hes> if you could just expand on it a moment for amendment is that some wiz have felt that anyways have had the hands on the policy levers forever. They've had victory after victory after victory and i've not felt it's not just the haven't felt. I haven't felt respected yeah. I think that's true and like kosei. I mean you you look at it pretty well anywhere any area of policy you see anywhere priorities than anywhere in tuitions generally dominating. Now i mean it's true. There are lots savarese a policy where in a way the anyway somewhere divide doesn't apply in a and and this is perhaps we'll talk about this later when we're talking about how we bridge just the gap between the two focusing on those areas whether it's you know well run health services getting social care right. Was there the these the things that either exist separate from also transcend anywhere somewhere differences but it is also true that so many of the fundamental issues news of politics have been bound about opening up society as i say trade immigrations on a lot of people feeling uncomfortable google about that i think i think the immigration stories very illustrates the point quite well about <hes> people not being heard so you know in this country we had the the first post-colonial immigration waves after the late forties through to late eighties probably fifties sixties seventies eighties and initially it was quite big psychological shock for people. Some people reacted very badly those racism those austerity not everywhere but we had you know pow pow ism there was discomforting. Some parts of the country and the politicians positions were able to infect say right. We'll look at his contract. Says were democratic contract we have to we will behave decently. The people that have arrived here from from the caribbean from africa from from the indian subcontinent. We will introduce some of the most advanced anti-discrimination laws in europe in the mid nineteen sixties and so on but in return we will make sure the numbers don't rise to default and indeed we will actually bring down by the end of the beginning of the nineties net immigration was close to zero and i think it was minus some us and then after new labor came to power ninety seven the door was kinda half opened the numbers increased again two thousand four with the with the former communist countries joining the european union and being able to come straight into the u._k. Labor market okay. It was a big shock like say it was about a million and a half people came over a very short period of time and the it anywhere economists also say oh but you know this is a great boon to the economy. It wasn't actually it was pretty neutral economy. The main beneficiaries were the people from the former communist countries. Who's who's who's wages in their home. Countries were third or quarter the level in the u._k. So they do very well out of the economy a g._d._p. Expanding but not g._d._p. Per capita or not significantly anyway and <hes> and on the negative side age that was just it was in no one predicted this quantity of people said there was obviously extra pressure on g._p.'s on hospitals schools and so on and you come build this kind of public infrastructure quickly enough to to to to abso- people so that was more pressure on public services. That was is true. You know the the the famous lump of labour fallacy you in the very very much. You know you get get more people in there not necessarily displacing jobs or they may displace emplacement then they'll be creating in another place so it's true those employment most people in the u._k. Continue to rise as well except for brief period after the financial crisis but nonetheless was though certain downward pressure on wages as a result to those things and you have a great reserve army of labour in karl marx's datings island. He talked reserve army of labour in ireland will now no it's in central and eastern europe and how policy would late labor the labor party was called the labor party was invented partly to reduce competition in the labor market and here it was enthusiastically increasing competition market but the point the main point i'm trying to make here is the is the people suddenly realized i mean particularly somewhere people who who were at the front end of this experience realize then national parliament unlike back in the seventies and eighties in in response to postcolonial immigration then national pond could do nothing about this fundamental change to their lives was to to some people's lives in some parts of the country and that was a revelation to people mostly. Most people. Don't follow the small print of european legislation. They had no idea that the country had had essentially abandoned control over who was allowed to come here at least for the people who have members of e._u. States and and you know that it was that brought home a realization that the people that run the country run the country in in their their own interests in some ways obviously the anyways think they're running the country in the general interest in the national interest in a common interest and some of the time they are but much of the time as in that case case they don't they they were thinking in terms of g._d._p. Growth they were thinking in terms of quite put it as crudely italy's as as the cheapo payroll or cheaper garden shed built by somebody from <hes> estonia but that was a factor too i mean certainly you know the more affluent people have interest in in reducing the price of of plumbers plumbers don't yes i think there has there has been an inability to yet yeah to to genuine look at the world from the perspective of people who are very different to you and you know we talked the whole time about diversity and <hes> <hes> and you thought and after all you know about half of the half of school leavers now go to university. We've had a massive expansion in universities. You would expect i wouldn't do that with a much larger portion of the workforce who are graduates a much larger proportion of the society who graduates that we would be a more intelligent and more tolerant and more liberal minded society but actually over the last generation also we seem to become less tolerant and less generous in some ways in our in our outlook much quicker to judge obviously social media eighty his reinforced this sort of living bubble confirmation bias but i can't help to think that the expansion of higher education too far from making us more liberal intolerance society seems have made it much harder society to gone. I mean then made me some sort of rule that when more than half your population go to university a society becomes much harder to govern that seems to be something anyway and you see that you see that so clearly with brexit as well. I mean the inability of the country to come together that this really is a case. I think of be careful what you wish for. We have spent so much time in in the last decade or two pushing back the boundaries windows your freedom celebrating the fact that we have celebrating fragmentation in ways celebrating the fact that we we celebrate different gods and goals and values and and obviously that that <hes> there is a lot to be said for that is that is a liberal society. He's won a pluralistic societies. One has space for that but if you don't also maintain a degree of of kind of common citizenship just common gnomes common ways of seeing the world common experiences. You'll find yourself in a position like the british paul and got into an way. Everyone was pursuing their end. It'll of individual goal whether it's d._u._p. Or theo g._o. Or the s._n._p. The inability to sieve we had just lost that capacity z. to to come together to find a compromise over over the common good of the national good that in which nobody got their own way precisely but we we could sacrifice our own particular values values or our own particular goals for for a big ago and we seem to have lost the constitution do that now it seems to me in a sense that the brexit eggs of mass where a society that so many of us in the rest of the world of seen as cohesive and able to sort out its differences as can be traced lousy to that lack of willingness to respect others sufficiently to hear what they're saying which i think is a big part of the places of your book if the any way as had been a bit more sensitive to the someway is out of this could have been avoided. I i think it could have been. I think it's partly to do really rapid expansion. All of this happened partly because of the fact that go back doc even thirty or forty years the anywhere proportion the population is five ten percent the most we've had this massive expansion and there's a sort of a much greater self-confidence over-confidence if you like the anywhere dominant clause and because anyways it's all better educated they do have the greater facility with words they they have more statistics nothing good tips but they are using those statistics to to reinforce their own essentially emotional presuppositions just the same as some ways somewhere as often don't have the statistics assistance to hand and i think you'll you'll right and i do think related to this is the fact that so many i mean the what we're talking about here is really human psychology talking so much about oh should be anyways anyways preferred to talk about g._d._p. Picking when becomes something like brexit but we should be talking about states's about esteemed about respect taking the long view. I think you know it. It may be that industrial society at least in its later stages when you combined with democracy in welfare states may actually be better distribution status than post industrial societies society's society's. We live in now where stratification is fundamentally by by education in which there is a single channel oh to professional employment and stevens and success in the past there were even though so we were close stratified where they were going to multiple routes up and out there was a lot of promotion from below in factories in the army in wherever and now there's a single channel and if you haven't got a degree you're going to quickly reach the glass ceiling. You're gonna have to if you want to progress further so i think that has that for for a lot of people who don't get into the a level stream of the equivalent in australia is fourteen fifteen. You are on the route to kind of slow elaine of life unless you have good fortune <hes> and i think if you combine that with the fact that seventy institutions in our society that used to grant people respect status intas esteem simply for being who they were whether it was the church the nation itself the family these are all institutions that have been weakened almost disappearing in the case of the church in recent decades israeli historian yuval harari as lovely way putting he says in the modern world has swapped meaningful power by which he means. I mean sort of enlightenment science instrumental reason control of nature. The enormous wealth has being produced by by modern civilization which is which is made everybody in the world pretty well everybody in the world wealthier but also also in the process stripped many people of a sense of belonging and a sense of meaning these are areas where modern liberals very weak longest-serving prime minister robert menzies who was by any standards and hailan told him deeply educated man. Dan probably had not really a personal face but he might have credit interesting observation in the light in forties so the effect effect that democracy's not much machine has a spirit in which we recognize the christian conception that life he might produce different outcomes we count all be the same until and samples but we have to recognize that a higher already say that every soul is of equal worth so there was an an obligation to respect somebody you might not necessarily agree with or even like on what basis having effectively in the worst. I'll have to say in a way that's different than what's happening. In the rest of the world. This is not an the secularization of the rotation and the waste involved in annoy an executing america's well. That's well yes but on want basis isis now. If we say for example in relation to brexit we can't resolve this these sorts of big deep divisions copy resolved and this would genuinely to respect one another and we're going to high with genuine civility. How do we find some ground upon which we can genuinely respect paper with whom we dacre disagree i mean i think it should just be part of the accepted of narrative of democracy that we you know we. Are you know each individual democracy is an extraordinary so egalitarian thing that every but oughta be can. I just say i grew entirely except that i'm not sure it's going to happen. We've just seen in australia. <hes> many of you might call them. The anyways i've seen an election result that i neither saw coming nor liked and you can see that large numbers numbers of them effectively oma. You know you can really pick it up as a strong with of what they doing. We shouldn't trust them with democracy. The american american version of it people marching on abana saying not my president about trump that is effectively saying that all the people who voted for him should be disenfranchised. You can't trust them to do the right. I think so. I agree with you. But how do we brighton. Yes this emerging view. Often on the powder. People who've had a higher education sophisticated that somehow allah citizen's views aren't would if they get it wrong. Perhaps i shouldn't even be democratic rights. Yeah i think there is that <hes> sort of pre-democratic arrogance of the highest educated anyways but i think what this straight someone to to agree with you <hes> <hes> just reinforce or the notes at the point. I think it turns out. Perhaps that than the value divides we've been talking about are harder to resolve them says you economic divides socioeconomic divides you can usually split the difference yeah you know you can compromise because you can have increased public expenditure but not by that much you know so you know people on the left you want higher spending the half satisfied with conservatives who worry about inflation whatever is much harder to do that. Well is much harder to do that. I think is much onto that value divides on some issues as you. It's hard to have an immigration. Policy will perhaps even in environmental policy satisfies both liberals and small c conservatives but in some other areas i think we have we've got over with unnecessarily polarized politics. I mean when when i think back to the conservatives here winning the election twenty twenty ten in coalition than with the liberal democrats that was very much. I think there was a kind of a weakening of over over kind of independent conservative spirit. I mean the the speaker someone who's on a conservative but they broadly to took the existing social and cultural policies in new labor there was a there was a great continuity and you could see that things like gay marriage. A coalition government introduced gay marriage and and was very proud of it and rightly so in many ways but having given as having so given something to the liberals. Why didn't they give something to multi conservatives as well. They could very easily the same government could very easily have introduced <hes> much greater support fool for for traditional families say that they could they could please the traditional family lobby as well as the liberal obi and you can point in two different directions at the same time on some issues not not on all issues and i think when we need to grow a new generation of politicians titians who are who are aware of anywhere somewhere divide and who can straddle it you know people who can straddle liberal and conservative worldviews in some ways because as you know these these new fundamental cleavages in our society and we need people who can sit in both pairs of shoes were <hes> and and and find not not just respect both worldviews but but find ways of speaking into both world views at the same time and and i don't think we've really developed politicians like that yet i mean it's hard to think of a single politician in who who can do that in in britain nor australia or america indeed all of the politicians that spring to mind tend to be very much associated with with one side of the argument or the other and <hes> but maybe we will develop them and you might say that those sort of soft centrist politicians very religiously of the left who emerged in the one thousand nine hundred thousand clinton bland. We're gonna need their equivalents for the for the value divides perhaps to <hes> to emerge but then they're not yet david thank you. You've been very generous with your time. The books six. I think incredibly valuable into is not only does it give us a new set of tools for understanding. What's happening where we started but you do point positively two ways forward and i think that's tremendous in particular you recognize the name that we do need to hear another guy and give some ground negotiated outcomes uh-huh and i think that leads me to just make this observation that at parliament's to be the great clearing houses of ideas you you have brexit before you but they'll be many more after it and the way in which you to sickled will set something the standard. I think the future difficult debates. We ought not to be afraid of full throttled debate. It's when it becomes personalized and use that expression people play the ball the man rather than the bull it becomes a problem in fact i would have thought that i- civility or commitment disability is a commitment to a tough mind virtue even a duty that becomes more important not less important as <hes> differences become deeper yeah i i like the idea of <hes> sort of tough-minded civility and i think you're all right <hes> that precisely because we have placed so much stress on <hes> on on diversity awesome difference we need to alongside that you know if you want votes a diverse indifference. You got to learn the arts. What's of navigating a coordinating it. We seem to have lost that art. In some ways we become more dogmatic particularly securely in political values. I think i was saying earlier about how there's more. There's more hostility between particularly from from liberals to conservatives conservatives rather less so the other way round than they used to be and clearly that's been reinforced by the embryonic stage of social media or not and if she's not just social media i mean it's the whole way in which the economics of even conventional media has perhaps paulie led by some modern social media has led to the distilling the distilling of so much public debate into into kind slogans and headlines credibly brief news bulletins and so on the values are sort of public entertainment of infused a lot of news and current affairs having said that i mean you know as as your own podcast shows is also a great great untapped appetite out there for much more long form writing and thinking and talking the jordan peterson has shown that with his his various contributions and i think <hes> i'm back that gives us some grounds for hope in a way so it's so long as people know that they're there are places they go. They want to understand something. We saw this with the brexit vote in lots of people now talking about liberty democracy and account we have i think i think they're kind of problems associated with that to that. Actually <hes> democracies in in a in a certain way kind of unavoidably emotional at some level but i also think we need to remember that democracy is also. It's not quite as young as social media but he's also pretty young. I mean you know we had a full franchise in this country nine hundred twenty eight eight men and women and we had by which time i might edited it was quite old fashioned stroke or you're ahead was there huts the the the attitude in psychology of earlier eras kind of propel old democracy on for for quite a few cage. I think well into the postwar period we still have attitudes different say that i don't mean just deference to the classes or the church. What sort of deference to authority was still a big factor. We've we've we've lost and in some ways that's good. No people don't take it on trust any longer just because somebody okay who someone who looks like doctor is saying and they have access to the internet and they can people can think for themselves does now and come to their own and and that brings with it ugly things to that brings with all of the the shouting and screaming and the we've given megaphones to the the right wing extreme left-wing extreme and we've sort of encouraged people to to emotion lies and simplify but i think you will find a way through there and i think we'll learn to filter out the the bad stuff in and and encourage more good stuff well david. Thank you very much. I commend the book to anyone who's listening to this at hasn't read and we look forward to the next one thank you you've been listening to conversations with with john anderson the further content visit john anderson dot net dot a u.

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