4 Episode results for "Rob Hutchison"
Episode 4: Rob Hutcheson Playing to Your Strong Suits
"We each have our strong suits. Your interests in your strengths may not completely overlap with the researcher carrying on for your Grad Ed studies but they can serve as a blueprint for what comes after graduation and informed the career choices you will make once you're on the job market your personal interests. It's also key for keeping a healthy balance between work and your personal life during your studies in this episode we'll be talking with Rob Hutchison who'll share his insights and experience achieving balanced during Grad school and charting his bath in his current non academic career welcome to pop up each with David Mendez the podcast where we explore careers and life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories stories to tell about how they made their place in a world of constantly evolving rules get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of Papa. PhD before we dive into today's episode I just WanNa let you know that I've prepared for you a resource sheet to help you take a snapshot of your current situation and start defining your profile for the job market market in your areas of interest you can download it by visiting Papa. PhD Dot Com and following the instructions in the website footer welcome to the show so today we're discussing career paths with Rob Hutchison. Rob Hutchison is senior manager at CER- Tara evidence in access success a leading global consultancy specializing in the demonstration of product value for pharmaceutical clients seeking to optimize market access and reimbursement. I want for their products before joining so tara. Rob was senior medical editor at ICS Exxon an industry leader in the development of pharmaceutical sales force restraining programs and materials rob also holds a master's degree in neurobiology from McGill University and his is a project management professional. Oh PMP certified project manager welcome to the PODCAST ROB. I David thank you for that introduction and thanks for having me on your podcast so now now. I'm GonNa let you introduce yourself a little more deeply. Where would you like to add to the short buy into that. I presented sure so so I guess it might be worth adding a little bit more as to what a market access consultant is for the pharmaceutical industry so I work as a consultant for our clients this ad pharmaceutical and medical device companies and we help them demonstrate the value of their products in order to gain favorable reimbursement conditions on public can private drug plans so because if a drug is not reimbursed and paid for in it's less likely to be used by the patients who need it so the idea around found value is that it's not enough to just say that a pharmaceutical product works or even works better than existing product. You need to demonstrate that the product provide sufficient benefit benefit for its cost the types of things that I work on to demonstrate that benefit do things like budget impact models. The show the the impact the product will have on health fines budget. I work on these large. Documents called global value dossiers that summarize the clinical and the economic evidence. It's and also do research to get in sight via interviews with payers. Who are the budget holders or the decision makers to get their opinion on the data and the likelihood of gaining members okay okay. I see very cool so to so given the two you have a master's in in in your neurology and that we're GonNa talk about how you got this career that you're working now. The first question I'd like to ask you is is how was how was the the end of your masters was easy to find motivation to complete it would actually have to say yes ask for me because I did a master's in neurology at McGill and although it was challenging I think that it was easy to stay motivated to complete the two years Masters Masters Program compared to what the candidates had to go through which was four years or more and also a lot of that to the type of research I was is doing as I was conducting research on how a snail's brain controls its mating behaviors and as strange as that sounds. It's actually a lot of fun and without going into all the details snails they're actually really remarkable creatures and or one there hermaphrodites and also have this bizarre for mating ritual where they shoot what's the love. DART into the skin of the other snail during mating little bit freaky but they also have really really large neurons in their brains so we are interested in seeing how these neurons respond during these activities but also whether we could stimulate the nerves to trigger movements movements in the animal and it wasn't like the Typical Masters Research Project where you would just run assays all day and hope for the best we were designing these really crazy experiments and coming up with some interesting findings and stuff had never been done before so and looking at behavior yeah exactly okay. That's sounds sounds very cool and yeah they must have been exciting for sure and so in your masters clearly you theme in questions and the model that you that that you liked and that you enjoyed but still you know there's steps you need to go through those hoops and hurdles. You need to to pass to finish your master's. What main attitude or principal would you say. A has accompanied. You guided you from doing a master's to finishing a masters to today is is there something. Is there a line that you can that you learned while Louis Muscles steel today that helps you sure so I learned that it's really important into stay curious and that same drive that had me wanting to discover more about the snail's brain in Grad school as really the same thing that keeps me going my day to day work today so as a consultant for the pharmaceutical industry and continuously learning about new disease states and new drugs and need to come up with solutions to help our clients with with whatever issue they're facing don't away the job. I have now is quite similar to the research and experimentation that I did during Grad school curiosity. I think I really I agree totally and and I agree that throughout life having curiosity especially in today's world where things are changing very very dynamically and the very frequently if you stick curious you'll stay motivated for sure now you know you finish your your your masters you a I guess you you had some answers to your questions and and then he was over and and then you decided to not follow up into into academia to impeach Bosox Etcetera Etcetera so can you tell us a a little bit about that transition and about what path in how you make decisions that led you to where you are today starting starting at at the end of your masters so when I was younger. I never really knew what I ultimately wanted to do for work when I was older for example. I wasn't one of those kids that knew early on that. They wanted to be a doctor or lawyer. I only knew the school was something that was very important to me and so I just decided to take things one step at a time time and in high school and see jet which is college here in Quebec. I focused on science in general and about the science courses I really enjoyed biology the most so then I did my bachelor's in biology at McGill men of all my biology courses I found neurobiology the most fascinating and I love learning about how the sensory Ansari System takes in information about the world around us we process that information and then at motor neurons to intern affect the world around us so that's how I ended up doing and my master's in neurobiology working on the snail as a model organism then while working on my master's thesis also developed a love for science writing so that was the next step which is what allowed me to transition to a job in the pharmaceutical industry as a medical writer and then medical editor and and finally developing training materials for Pharma sales representatives so after seven years of salesforce training that's when I discovered an even narrower aspect of the Pharma Industry which was market market access and reimbursement which is what I specialize in now although I've had of narrowed my focus the topic of market access reimbursement for Pharma in general is still very broad and there's still a lot of room for discovery but those are kind of the steps that took me to where I am now and it was like a step by step process where I just fell upon and each new discovery along and you focused more and more into into something very very particular exactly yeah okay you you mentioned mentioned that you you discovered the that. You liked science writing. Did you write blogs or were you contributing to to who is to make two magazines or publications before going into medical writing well there was my thesis and then I was also an author on on one journal Publication that came out of my master's research okay the writer on that and then also help to review some of my my colleagues journal Journal manuscripts and that sort of thing so I didn't have a blog or anything like that it was more of the the academic writing that I actually enjoyed and sometimes even more the research is doing okay and people came to you to look at my look at this that I wrote. Can you please review it something like that exactly burkle it makes total sense and then once you feel that you have almost a knack for something and that it's something specialized into in. It's directly linked to what you do. You know you you a follow up on it and and and that's yeah sounds very logical but very cool that you had that kind of a possibility to very quickly find your calling. Let's say and so it appears from what you're saying that things went very smoothly from one step to the next still you you moved from you. No the academic environments to to the job market environment with their any fears or obstacles that you that you faced I in that transition and even transitioning from one job to another aura was everything did everything go as smoothly throughout there were definitely some fears and obstacles so my I fear leaving Grad school was around whether I made the right decision to stop at the end of my masters instead of pursuing so at the end of my master's program I was asked by my thesis supervisor if I want to extend to do a PhD and I bought it over and decided to just complete the masters sisters and then began looking for a job and I still don't know if that was one hundred percent the right decision and I suppose I'll never know but at the time I knew that I didn't want to research snails for another two years also knew that I didn't want a career in academia so I didn't feel that was absolutely necessary. And finally I really just wanted wanted to get on with my life and get a job so when I started working there was always a question of whether PhD would give me maybe a higher position at my job or if I paid more than that is possibly true however I also had a two year head start my career by doing a masters such as also plus us so what I have seen in the real world is that a PhD definitely would have been an advantage but that it's not impossible to get ahead without it so for example we'll have seen even high level executives without any fancy degrees and they got there because of their talent than their determination and then on the flip side of also seen people with Ph gauge the struggling to find a job or to keep a job and in the end. I think it really comes down to what you can convincingly demonstrate you can do to help an organization achieve their goals and that's what I've been focusing on so I'm happy with where I am now and I'm not really looking back and worrying too much about that decision that I made but I think at the time name there. was that uncertainty there that was a little bit difficult to overcome Yeah Yeah No. I think it's the it's the healthy attitude we're we're not in the Marvel Universe and we don't have Gizmos that can bring us back in time but for sure a hearing new and ended knowing you you know you. You've definitely made the choices that ledge somewhere. Where you're you're doing well. You're doing something and you love and I think that's in my opinion. Imagine you agree. That's one of the most important things in the end yeah exactly I think I I I can't worry too much about those decisions as long as unhappy now and I I'm just forging down the path and they'll definitely be another fork and need to make another the decision but as long as I go for it jump in make a decision and tried to do my best and I think that's the best second yeah and you got what your fixation right so. This is also something that's coming up that has come up in other interviews is that even with a PhD you can go back and do a certificate in in the field that interests you and then you know you can when you're talking to employers you can say well. Yes I have to Z. But now I have a certificate in air be or I have an MBA in NC or the end because one of the issues that can happen is for some Um employers they may they may be reticent to Employ Appeal. Because they consider that they may be a overqualified but a for sure in other domains. Let's say medical writing its values right is valid by the employer that that the person has speech so it it depends depends on on what job markets you're. You're launching yourself into exactly exactly and that's you know I've got three young kids so I think that it had been difficult to to do that kind of extra studying studying but now that they're a little bit older. I got the PM out of the way and then maybe down the line. I may want to go back and do something like an Mba because I think in in business management that is something that that could be important for me down the line so defending the be all end all of everything who knows maybe I'll want the do one eventually when I do have more time but there are options and I'm looking forward to just seeing what else I can do without later. Yeah Yeah Yeah so basically you're not by stopping your academic career not closing door because there's other doors. They're going to open and you can create create your own doors in your own windows excellent now in the next section I like to talk about university and Grad School and and about the impact that that going through Grad school has had on on on the guests on the podcast guest center the first question that I'd like to ask Hugh is for those of our auditors that still have a year or two of studies to complete if you have any advice on how to make the most most of their time at Grad school leading to their future non-academic career sure so I would advise people to not just do what I did which was the only only focus on my classes and my research and not really look ahead to the next step as I mentioned earlier I really just stumbled upon the next step at the very last minute throughout my academic career career meeting up to my first job but instead I would suggest that people really invest the time to research what jobs and opportunities are available to them so go to the job affairs and search job postings and talk to people in different industries create online profiles on the job boards and lengthened and all that stuff has I think it's never too early to look into what your options are and when I was at McGill had what was called caps or career planning services the at at the end of my degree I basically worked with caps to help create a CB and then started sending my cv out to all the jobs listed in the cats data pace and then job so I I was lucky that this worked out but I think that I could have done more earlier on in case that strategy didn't work out and I think the other thing I would mention is to not don't be afraid to ask questions and just reach out to the people who may have more information than you about potential career opportunities that being nimble like your professors has been also you're teaching assistance. Ta But there's a lot of people who have a lot of great information and experience you can draw from the career and placement services at McGill for sure a full of resources for people looking to transition and and and yet I do advice anyone anyone at McGill to the that's looking for what's out there after to visit is it and to to get appointments into to it because they have all these building resources and and workshops workshops for short caps is is the place to go at McGill for that excellent now now the other thing from from Grad school or about Grad school that I'd like talk is transferable skills so when we leave university we can extend loser bearings because you know the job market is a it's a different. It's a different dynamic. The time you know time and pressure is is different but I would say and I hope agree that we're not totally without resource said at this juncture my question to you is what skills that you acquired at Grad School. You'd say have been your greatest greatest assets in reorienting your career which ones have been valued the most by your employers or by your peers up till today. That's a great question so I think it's fair to say that a lot of what you learn at university is directly transferable to the job market so when I left university I didn't only know about the reproductive system of the snail more importantly I gained were research skills in the laboratory and also in the Library University also gave me organizational organizational skills to get the work done at also to meet deadlines like Shrek completing my thesis on time that sort of thing and then finally leadership skills so being a teacher's Teacher's assistant. Da for example alert to be a leader in the classroom instructing undergrads on animal dissections and of course materials and then a lot of that was was directly transferable for example when working as an editor with multiple medical writers working under me yeah. That's very it's it's. That's what I believe too but the why do I like this question is because I remember that when I finished I didn't see so you know it wasn't easy to see these the transfer ability of these these skills later on later on the the it started coming up and it started being more and more evident but I think it's important for our auditors to that finishing what are they have just finished to let them know you learn a lot. E and it's not not only you didn't learn only about your your your your team. There's a lot of habits that you gain a lot of ability honed that are prized. You know that are valued by by you know employers or people. You'RE GONNA media. You're going to partner with in your in your non-academic. I totally agree and in terms uh-huh of of networking do you feel that Grad school versus the job market to airtight compartments or is there some networking working today that is still connected to to you going through university so I think in my case I would have to say yes they. They are two airtight compartments so I have kept in touch with some of the people I met in Grad school but none of them pursued a career in the pharmaceutical industry so there haven't really really been many networking opportunities that would be of any value to me but most of the people I knew continued to do more organizational biology work and they're mostly now researchers researchers or teachers so I kind of keep in touch with them on facebook or whatever but I wouldn't say that I network too much with them. From a career perspective okay that's fair and what about when you change careers a uh give give you still in connected domains that must be some connection still happening. from you know from your previous jobs to to your current yes in that case. There are definitely a lot of networking opportunities so going from pharmaceutical sales force training so where I am now which is pharmaceutical market access consulting there is a lot of overlap and I still keep in in contact with a lot of people from my old job and just being in the Pharma space going to conferences and just being in that Pharma world you bump into a lot of people and for that I can definitely say that there is a lot of opportunity even a lot of the people I worked with before have now moved onto Pharma companies and can become potential new clients for me at my current job so those okay yeah. There's a lot opportunity. There are two excellent all right now going back to people who are still in in in Grad school will you mentioned cap so the McGill career and Placement Services and this touches on on on something that I wanted to that I I like to talk about route. which is you know doing? Grad Studies we you may tend to feel an and you mentioned that before that you know all you do all all that's important and all you do. Is You'll project will be at a massive HD project you know you may May occupy the your whole existence from from waking up to going back to bed at night and and also you may have this feeling that you you working. Oh you know you're working for someone else that it's not for you and given given the size of the generation the length of these projects. It's easy to forget forget yourself you know forget to to take care of certain aspects of your personal life in the process especially if before talking what about students who come from outside who may not have this the safety net of their family close by or or or the Group of friends close by so so you already mentioned using the resources that are available in offered by your university in this case. You talked about caps tonight. I reiterate this is very very important very very helpful but my question would be doing doing a study habits or resources have have helped you cultivate yourself as an independent person and that helped you come out ready to promote yourself on the job market so during my studies and now as I'm in the job market of always tried identify and focused on the things that interest me most than that also planned to my strong suit so it's really simple. I would just ask what do I love doing and what am I good at anything that overlaps within those two categories and that's what I would focus on. You can't go wrong so for me. Three things that I was interested interested in aside from the science itself and that was good at we're writing presentation and multimedia I love writing and putting together presentations and I learned to be proficient with multimedia platforms over the years so I really enjoyed being able to find work in which I've been able to put all of these things together and that might be in. It's like a tablet based training program for Pharma Sales Reps or share point site for market access affiliates or anything that kind of goes outside just the science allows me to bring in other areas of expertise that have developed cool so leverage your strong suits even though they're not directly connected to the to your your research work yeah. That's that's actually very very very pertinent and something. That's yeah that everyone should do you you. You're not a one dimension person people have many different interests and the and strengths that that they should put forward for sure. I agree now. One aspect that that I'd like to to going to a little bit is what about activities outside of Grad school extra curricular activities hobbies things like that was that important in keeping a new keeping you focused energize throughout yes definitely so you know me personally you know that I've played music my whole life and and while I was in Grad School I played in a rock band here in Montreal and we also played some shows outside of the city so music with something that allowed me to kind of distress and when I leave lab go practice with my band and play shows on the weekend and that's something that helped me then and still helps me now in my current career because music really is my passion and it's something that I know continuing for the rest of my life and it's a good getaway from the stressful all day to day work and I definitely do enjoy the work that I do but the music is something that is a little bit different to end a allows me to just exercise the more creative side of my brain and one thing that I should probably add to that it kind of works in the opposite direction too because there's a lot of things that I learned in being abandoned getting up on stage and performing in front of crowds those things that I can actually draw from as well in a two day work because I'm actually not really a natural public speaker at it's not something that I thought that I was not good at in the beginning but I think in being able to get up on stage with my band is something that allowed me to be a little bit more of a a performer in the board room and in salesforce training and talking to sales Dell's representatives and that sort of thing so it is something that has actually helped me in my career even though it started off as just passion. That's that's actually very cool. I I had never seen it. like that and very cool so it's this touches the point about cultivating yourself and then allowing you to promote yourself in a way in markets that often you know needs people to to be the you know to to speak in public to to be able to express themselves. We had to present to be able to present ideas to clients very very very interesting bridge that you that you wish there and so so and I think what's super important about what you're saying is people people need you to not let go of the things they they love they love to do because they're in a graduate program and and they should you'd keep doing them because again like you said it's it's kind of a event could be can be event for many things for creativity or type of creativity that is you don't use that. Let's say in the lab or in research and it can can be a place where you meet your your friends. in in a certain regular basis and then you disconnects it's from either your job or your research and then in a way. I would say recharge your batteries to to win you. Pick up again the next day that you go. Do you go yeah. I totally agree and I think at first I was a little bit nervous that people would think of me as someone not serious enough in the Pharma on world because he's got this other rock man going on than actually living through it. I realized that people are actually more interested in talking to me because you know they don't look down upon me because I'm also very passionate about music. I think they're more interested in hearing about it and so I've really enjoyed being able to keep both of those aspects of my lifetime great so that was about a you know to taking care of yourself during such a project now what about people that help you have you had mentors that helped you in your journey during your studies or even after your studies absolutely so my master's supervisor. Dr Ronald Chase who is definitely one of the most important mentors ipad definitely grateful that he took me on ask researcher in his lab and I also learned so much from him about the scientific method he is also a fascinating inspiring guy who research snail brains for most of his life but since retirement has gone on to write these incredible books about mental illness and he's the one person who I really kept in contact with from Grad school over the years and he's been a reference for any job that I applied for since Grad school and he's just a great guy to reach out to whenever I need any advice on anything and then after my studies I've had two main jobs each with a key mentor who was again my immediate supervisor so in my first job job in Pharma salesforce training I had a boss by the name of Mark Roberts who really showed me how to transition from the mindset of a student into one of a professional and that included in how to manage my time how to respect project budgets and also how to interact with clients which I hadn't done before at Grad School at my current in company I had a great mentor by the name of Emmanuel Koito who took it to the next level and then really showed me how to be a good consultant so part of that was to really we listened to what the client's needs are have the confidence to trust your instinct to propose the best solution possible so with this. I was able to earn in greater respect from my clients who could now see me more as a problem solver than someone who checks the boxes world of consulting. It's really important to have that the has been a key objective of mine and something that I continually strive to improve miracle and did did the mentor mentor. T- relationship just come up naturally. I guess you know your supervisor for sure you know he was supervisor. So the report you know was it. It was part of that relationship but then in your working life a mentorship mentality. Let's say relationship to develop. Look naturally it came up let's say organically during your path throughout the the different jobs all. I think that the three people people that I mentioned were all my superiors and my the people who I immediately reported to so it wasn't only organic but I think that we just had a click that really worked and they were the type of mentors and supervisors that really wanted to kind of cultivate learning joining in the people who they oversee and I've really reached out to that and we just had a good rapport where we would have weekly sometimes even daily meetings to talk about the work but also wear my career was going and it was clear that they wanted to help and that was something I bet I made sure that I took full advantage of and it also helps them because when they are overseeing projects they were able to feel confident than having having that connection with me so I think it's something that's very important and I'm really grateful that I had with those three people great so so the the connection like a like a clique that happens that that allows for I guess tell me if I may I'm putting right that allows for a very straightforward report with the person and that you were also in a mindset that you know you had your mind open to learn whatever this person had to teach you at that time exactly so it's it's really just open communication and not just them telling me what to do. It's a asking a lot of questions getting a feel for what the person's strengths and weaknesses Dr and then hopefully kind of focusing on the strengths and then improving whatever maybe a weak point and then what I learned from them is now something saying that I try to do with the people I'm working with on on my projects and just the whole learning experience in just the culture of development that I think is really important Gordon for an organization excellent well. I think you've touched on on the points that I wanted to to now. I have a less question that I'd like to ask and it's kind of you know you have to put yourself to imagine yourself in a situation nation and and following situation imagine that you're standing in front of an audience full of young finally sword or recent graduates people just like you when you finish your your Grad school they're struggling through fears worries doubts and obstacles to find their place in the job market to trace their journey towards a productive and fulfilling life. So what I'd like you to do is to tell them what two or three three basic strategies or principles they could follow starting today to put in place a realistic and intangible transition project show so stores I would I would say to identify what you are good at and what you enjoy doing so they may not necessarily be the same thing but hopefully future job would contain elements of both and next I would say start working on your brand early so this would mean developing your CV and your Lincoln page but also putting together. Your elevator debater pitched a summariser profile. This is something that you should have prepared to recite the someone if an opportunity arises and then third I would say don't be afraid great to take a leap so to try new things and do things that scare you like I mentioned before some people might like the idea of just doing the same old repetitive tasks and over and over again but if you want to progress in your career keep things interesting and do more meaningful word that makes a real difference whether it be for your clients or for anyone else but I think they need to take risks and put yourself out there which loops back to stay curious tackling excellent well rob was really pleasure to have you a at the Papa peachy microphone I think you had a lot of interesting insights and and I think our listeners will profit a lot from from what you had to to share with them. so thank you thank you for being here. Thank you for for your time. Is there something is there are less shutout. You'd like to give no not really it was really my pleasure to be on your podcast today so thanks for having me all righty so thank you very much and we'll speak soon. I think thanks for listening to another episode of Coppee. HD PODCAST head over to PAPA PETE'S DOT COM for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic Post Grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources here on the podcast so make sure you subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get your podcasts to always keep up with the discussion and to hear from our latest guests.
Papa PhD Pearls of Wisdom 2019 Season
"Welcome to episode Twenty Six popper PhD being the last episode of Twenty Nine Thousand Nine hundred instead of an interview and this week. I'm bringing your collection of inspiring full of wisdom the guests of shared so far. I hope you enjoyed them. Having sneak a happy sharing welcome to papa. PhD With David Mendez. The podcast where we explore careers in life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of Papa PhD. I'd really love you the audience to play an active role in the show. So if there's a theme you'd like to see covered on the show or if there's a guest did you like me to interview head over to anchor dot. FM FOR SLASH CAPUCCI and drop us a voice message to be featured on a future episode on the PG see website you can also subscribe to our newsletter and get our resource sheet at the bottom of every page and you can also leave us a written message contacts page. Welcome to the show on episode one. The new Murchison shared about the importance of allowing self to think big when thinking of career opportunities. I think the the first biggest thing would be To to think big about what the possibilities are you know Well I think you know things like like this project. You're working on you know things it's like this podcast really help people to to realize there are a lot of opportunities to raise the go in addition to just you know continuing on academia right. So you know. Don't be scared to kind of be a little bit audacious about what what kind of direction you might be able to go into And to really think about what. What's what's GonNa work for you when it's going to resonate for you And then you know to you know work figuring out how you're gonNA spend yourself how you're going to and how you're GonNa get all personal brand how you're GonNa you know how you're GonNa spin it so that you're the right person to do that. Ah On episode. Two Joel. mccower talked about the importance of staying curious. I you still learning stuff. Yeah I thought I've got a PhD. I'm an intelligent person But when I was doing my MBA. I realized that If you're not not studying something quite rigorously you know. You don't feel union in especially of course I was in my late forties doing my mba as well but You don't Your mind does begin to stagnate so keep leading cause after a year of my MBA. I felt I was twenty years younger mentally again. My agility amd back and that was great you know is a great feeling To I would say just keep letting no matter what it it is do Of course you know Learn about extraterrestrial life. You know If physicals search for extraterrestrial life or learn about anything I think that's really important again. Every opportunity increases you'll network on episode three Mark Roberts shares. Why should never feel like you're stuck professionally? The key mindset is just to keep reminding yourself that if what you're doing say that new job outside Academian started if it doesn't live up to your expectations that doesn't mean that you made the wrong and that somehow failed so you really should have just stayed in academia. Now that's not that you can always leave. That new job can find another the job either in the same field perhaps discovered that field just isn't for you so if something brand new again you're really never stuck in this. You convince yourself you're stuck and so What what I would really recommend is that everybody is their own pep squad? So when things aren't aren't working out just keep telling yourself that things will turn around you one way or another on episode four Rob Hutchison talks about why it's important to identify your strong suits. I I would say to identify what you are good at and what you enjoy doing so they may not not necessarily be the same thing but hopefully future job would contain elements of both and next. I would say start working on your brand early so so this would mean developing your CV and your Lincoln page but also putting together your elevator pitch to summarize your profile. This is something that you should have prepared to recite someone on its opportunities arises and then third I would say. Don't be afraid to take a leap to try new things and do things that scare you like. I mentioned before some people might like the idea of just doing the same old repetitive tasks and over and over again. But if you want to progress in your career keep things interesting and do more meaningful work and makes a real difference whether it be for your clients or for anyone else that I think they need to take risks and put yourself out there. On episode six Fiona Robinson Talks about the importance of finding your passion. If you're doing research I think that the two top things you're at are transferable from that are your critical critical thinking skills and your ability to take a big project rated into pieces analyze those. Get those done tied back together and bring her back to the whole. I think you can do that pretty much. Anyone doing research is being back. Then you can do anything you can. You can take on any kind of challenge. So then it's finding where do you want to put your allergies. What are you passionate about? I know they say you know do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. Whatever you still have to work? It's not always fun and not everybody gets to work doing what they. But there's gotta be something but you're doing or that you wish you in that that draws on episode seven Philippa Kereta Bauza talks about. Why you deserve to be where your today? Life is really really stressful nowadays in every field so you really stressful but if you are doing winging it is because it deserves and love your child as it's been hard in win nowadays the working. Where'd you live science will? Is Everything Itar and so rest. This will take all these days on episode eight. Emily Blue Roberts tells us what's important to have a side hustle during your PhD. Start doing actual work outside of your role role as a graduate student OR POST DOC By work I don't necessarily mean paid work. Although that is preferable it could be volunteer work but anything just just to gain any kind of experiences outside of your primary one as a researcher As a student as a trainee because working saying if it's a side hustle or a volunteer position or an internship or whatever it is gives you again those additional perspectives That you might be seeking at this this time and you know usually something you can put on your CV. Because a lot of the the fear I think at this stage is around I don't have any work experience. I don't have any reason working experience. All employers are looking for the PhD plus two years. He's Mary's as an entry level position. Well of course we know. That's negotiable right But something you can do while at the same time you're finishing her PhD. You can start that work experience clock even on a part time basis just by reaching out and having some of these other Arab experiences in episode nine killer look shows advice on finding a fulfilling career. Yeah so that is A. It's obviously a huge task to that transition and to even begin to understand what you want to do and I think one of the main things is needs to do. Your research find vocation that is profitable fulfilling but also can provide value to your audience and make you feel like you're making a valuable contribution And that's not always the easiest thing to do but if you do that research in you you have a decent idea that something's actually going to earn your money and filling. That's ninety percent of the battle on episode ten to Merle. Luke talks about why it's important to allow yourself to try new things see opportunities that often interest you even if they don't fit neatly into the path you think you're supposed using footage air supposed all along if it's interesting to you pick it up at the very least it's nothing you learned that it's Tea and it isn't for you at the very most host in a few really good at it and it could lead to an exciting career opportunity or you know like Barnes here extracurricular opportunity or you just never know what's going to be there unless you refunds and like. I said it doesn't have to be something that we'll be predetermined eighties in episode eleven. Chris can talk about resources available to people looking into enterpreneurship to produce We're at a time where there are loads of resources available to people coming out of Grad school especially with entrepreneurial unreal ideas on. There's tons of really good accelerator programs. Be At y combinator or at creative destruction lab program which is a program that we did That was phenomenal. But honestly you know the biggest value to a lot of those programs is that it introduces you to Lots of other founders. Lots of other people trying to do similar things It may not be the exact same company or the exact same technology but but they're all struggling with different varieties of the same problems And so talking to them can be hugely helpful. In episode Twelve Adriana Bankston talks about the importance of learning to tell your story learn how to talk about your science to other individuals and other groups who are not scientists so even if you have friends that are not in science and I'll talk to them and see if they understand what you're doing taking classes and You know being able to. I think I think the way that we started as creating resources that you know if institutions may have them or if they don't have them it's always helpful to try and create on yourself south in episode thirteen. Dr Kiki Sanford Talks About Imposter Syndrome. And how to deal with it. So imposter auster syndrome is something that we are hearing a lot about these days Just know that if you are in graduate school you have gotten there for a very good reason and you are a capable intelligent human being and You know find other people people that you can connect with. I think that is number one. Humans are social beings. And if we keep all these things to ourselves it's it's damaging in the end and we need to be able to connect with other people about about these thoughts of this this thing this thing. We're attempting graduate. School is a long a long and arduous adventure. And you it. You're not always going to feel like you're winning right. It's not always winning. There's a lot of losing. There's a lot of failure and it makes you feel really bad and it makes you doubt yourself So find other people. I mean if you don't have have a great relationship with your P.. I find other Grad students find other advisers but you you need to search for those people all You know sometimes they come to you but you need to be willing to open your eyes and see them as a as a possible. Small connection in Episode Fifteen David try it talks about the importance of taking part in student. Life pick something limit you like. Don't give up on too early because sometimes it was done one semester in whatever program and I don't like it so I have to find something else. Life moves quickly a Don't stick to something for ten years if you know you hate it after five and I'm thinking to myself in litigation but as far as the study goes just be diligent. Make friends with the students and something I also forgot is make friends with the professors and not friends. Buddy buddy just left the professors know that you're interested in what you're studying what you're what what's going on because when a professor knows that you're serious and that you exist and that you're responsible and you're taking things seriously On the one hand it's good to know the professors personally but on the other hand would if it comes to asking for a revision of an exam and the professor knows that you've been working hard all semester versus. He's never seen you except when it comes to complain about an exam it changes things a little bit. That's the very strategic way to look at it but knowing when your professors and getting to know them having getting to know what they want is also amazing but as far as the transition get out there meet people get get another city at just. Don't get stuck in the habit of going to school going home and You know not not not meeting some people and not getting out there in Episode Sixteen Seth Roger Shake run talks about why it is important to set short and long-term objectives support yourself try and create Or figure out what the the sort of short term objective is and And you know like a long term objective for the long-term onto that have to be very specific like I want to save the lives of MOMS and babies in Africa but it can be like I I wanna want to have meaningful impact in. Someone's life in help right that. That's one long-term objective and then the short term one is to do this. I think I need to understand how. Oh you know. Drugs make their way into the market And then from that work your way backwards to understanding what skill sets you need need and learn as much audible in episode Teen Simon. More asks a question that can help you throughout your professional life. You gotta constantly ask yourself what are you gonNa be when you grow up. It's not gonNA be the same it's GonNa keep it all again like whatever you graduate High School Graduate University right here is not. I mean I think either. Hopefully it won't stay that you're you're gonNA have all things will change in my state of same little while but some point is GonNa Change. You gotTa keep evaluate screen when he asked and that's been very in episode nineteen a Bill Police. It talks about why mental health should be your top priority. Yeah but I mean I think of when you have an accident you break your leg you go to the doctor and the doctor CEO you have yet to take some rest okay. And they give some exercises and and nobody ever tells us that you can also break your leg in your head. I mean something can go wrong with your brain you re using I mean especially people who have intellectual jobs they used brings everyday so football players. You go there you run us you tackle cul- and that's something you great something or you kind of You get an injury but did you notice Mandel so the brain can get interest. And there's IT's no permanent. I mean we have also a section. If if the brain has a problem is something permanent is mad is stupid is whatever is I know. The Bray is so considerate Massu. At some point. The brain has something that goes wrong. and which is something that would happen to everyone in life and then if the only thing you you have to do is to take some risks just like the saints too when you twist. Your Ankle Takes Abreast Youtube Fisher. Green you break something more serious. They said motorist I or even goes to the doctor and the doctor was okay. We should trust. Is it just it. Just bother you buddy so yes. Mental health is important but is important also took doc notice that we have we have not just to look after that we just we have the right to to be ill simple. Put up sometime in. The Twenty drew slack talks about the importance of reaching out to professionals in your areas of interest be fearless and and be Determined in in in chatting with people seeking out opportunities for mentorship of the knowledge gathering as early as is often as time permits always. I was found people so so happy New Year to help I think as scientists especially you know coming back to my own personal Or our personal sort of domain Because we're you know we're always held to account and we're never far away from Up from from some episode of failure writing as researchers We we have a out of humility that makes us ly help people but I found it in other domains too. So yeah I would. I would say leverage Every every opportunity audible and don't just Decide Eh you're going to settle on on one narrow area of of study a research career path. And you know. I think you don't know what you don't know in episode. twenty-one Mug with medicine talks about the importance of starting to network right now doing in your academic life tried to network. Don't stay focused only on the microscope. You have to log to have to talk to other. People have to lobby also tried to get a sense of the budget. How much you're spending? How can you make processes better in faster around you and this also counts more cost effective than you know more more efficient in general? That's that's something like that Damian lax but you you can try to develop on your own by the network and the knowledge around if you'd like to do something courses. Are you know thinking about entrepreneurship. Go to those networking events. Go to the to the talks. Listen how it is. Don't be afraid to talk with people what they feel about about it. What's their major challenges and see if it's really for you and pursued a career for women in general I think the most important important to remember that issue there? You're Likes to be there in Kenya. Where in a high position or wherever you are remember to look back and try to help others birds chief the plane? In episode twenty two cindy Evanston talks about how creating an interdisciplinary skillset could influence. Close Your career down the road. You have to step as hard as as hard as it is because we already don't have a lot of time but to step out of the lab and onto to do something else even get. I don't know some sort of one year program in a different field. That merges with yours you know like If it's in psychology and you know you don't become you know you don't want to do research in psychology look into whatever aspect that you enjoy whether it's child development or her Aging or whatever could be just emerged I think also not to be afraid to merger education with something else And I could be a weird mix it could be You just finish your signs and you love cooking and you might talk about the neuroscience of baking. I don't know I'm just saying like don't be too merged urge to different fields. Because that's what I did. I hesitated when I wanted to look into education a little bit more and but it was that jumper that leap into something different. That really helped me on episode twenty three Mark Rendall shares advice on dealing with criticism and with comparing yourself with others. Most people take action or don't take action based off what they think other people are going to think about them. And I'm going to hand you the golden ticket right here. People are not thinking about you. You they're thinking about themselves and they're thinking about what you're going to do and how that's GonNa make them look so when you really start to focus on why you're doing what you're doing in what you want to do in life and you stop thinking about what other people are thinking. which is themselves you can get really really intentional? and Re and really really clear on what you I want to do and you can live a life of purpose fun episode Twenty Four. You'll cost the talks about the importance of being patient in your search for the dream job. The life academia is very full of existential questioning and once you find a solution Russian let it let it sinking and and then take the risk like there's no there's no right path you just you'll you'll see. There is really not as solution of formula and you have been and till now if you are. PG students say until now you've been following a certain direction that the educational system has provided you or this society that you are in but you realize that there are so many avenues and so many possibility. So yeah chill out I would say And and get some Sun on and get some positive vibes wherever you can find and yeah go for it. It's I know that it seems like a race I I know that he seems very complicated for many people but I I really feel. There's always some sort of solution and you just have to. Yeah I don't know if it's wait for it but once you found it don't let it go and let it be so twenty. Five is one eleven to share. Here's some advice on how to choose your own path doing your Grad Studies. I think people should If you really love science and you want to dive in in research you should indefinitely go for a PhD. And it's okay if you change your minds midway and you change a little bit route don't forget it's your pitch it's not your supervisors answers. Its European so you have the right to choose your own path chooses supervised. The choice of supervisor is super important so chooses supervisory cit. I would not just for his or her scientific resume but also for their human qualities their personality the way the work. It has to work for you as well. The other thing is when you're midway through the supernatural to have doubts especially between the second and third year when everything is going wrong think because usually when it goes wrong between the second and the third year and you really wonder what am I doing with my life but if you want to do science related stuff well just just hang in there and finish it it will be worth it because when you finish your it's not just just the signs that you've learned you learned a set of skills. That will be super important for you in the future like problem solving and teamwork and meeting me any other people in getting people to help you solve problems and looking for answers and so many things that you learn along the way so having a PhD is an assets if you're doing a PhD in thinking of becoming a Pi. Well that's probably not going to happen. The numbers are not in your favor but having a PhD is wonderful because it opens doors and if you want to many other science related jobs having the is obviously a plus and even if you're not going to science well lots of consultants they value having people with PhD's because they know they're problem solvers and consultants will l.. That's their day to day job south problem so having a PhD's always an asset and this is it for twenty nine hundred. I I hope you have enjoyed the episode and to share great new content with you in twenty twenty so stay healthy keep investing yourself and keep tuning in every Thursday Thursday to hear news stories and get new ideas on how to carve your career path. Thanks for you're listening to another episode of the Papa Peach podcast head over to Papa. PD DOT COM for show notes and for more food for thought about non-academic boss Grad careers. I'll always be happy to share inspiring stories new ideas and useful resources here on the PODCAST. So make sure you subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get your podcast it to always keep up with the discussion to hear from our latest guests.
Crime Novelist Laura Lippman
"This message comes from N._P._R.. SPONSOR COMCAST BUSINESS GIG fueled network solutions that help businesses go beyond the expected to do the extraordinary Gary comcast business beyond fast learn more at comcast business dot com from W._h._y._y.. In Philadelphia I'm Terry Gross with fresh air air today crime novelist Laura Lippman her popular test Monica Detective Series is set in Baltimore Lincoln's hometown. Her new standalone novel lady in the Lake is also a mystery set in Baltimore. It's about a recently divorced woman setting out on her own in the mid nineteen sixties Lippman said it in in the past because she found it hard to write about the present after trump was elected and everyone she knew became obsessed with cable news and social media and they'd be very excited excited about the breaking story of the day the hour this will change everything things in nothing would happen and I thought this is insane. Littmann's his novel digs into issues that are still with us like racism sexism and Homophobia. The main character gets a job at a Baltimore newspaper Littman and her father father wrote for the Baltimore Sun. My guest Laura Lippman is well known for her Popular Series Of novels set in Baltimore Featuring Detective Test S. monitoring her new standalone novel lady in the lake was described as extraordinary by Stephen King who reviewed it in Sunday's New York Times Book Review. The novel is set in Baltimore in the mid nineteen sixties. The main character Maddie Schwartz is in her late thirties trying to start a new life as an independent woman woman after leaving her husband and moving from the suburbs through the city she manages to find the body of an eleven year old white girl who'd gone missing rather than just give give her story to a reporter at the paper Mattie insists on sharing the byline that helps her land a job as an assistant to the helpline columnist at the paper she uses her newspaper credential to investigate the story behind another body. A Young Woman discovered in a fountain unlike the story of the dead white girl no one at the papers interested in this victim story because she's black and worked at a cheap copy of the playboy club the novel Investigates Issues Issues of race class and sexism as well as what life was like at city newspapers in the mid sixties. Littmann's father was an editorial writer and columnist at the Baltimore Sun at the time the novel set Laura Lippman later worked as a reporter there. She was a newspaper reporter for twenty years before writing novels full-time later. We'll talk about her personal essay about becoming a mother at the age of fifty one Laura Lippman welcome to fresh air and congratulations on this novel. Thank Q. and thank you for having me so I wanNA start by asking you about trump's Baltimore tweet from the weekend. You lived in Baltimore. Since you're six you work for the Baltimore Sun newspaper there and your testimony in detective series is set in Baltimore. Your first novel is called Baltimore Blues and and then you know when you think of Baltimore Artists you think of you your husband David Simon who did the wire set in Baltimore and John Waters so all right at least that's how I think of so let me just recap the tweet <hes> this was about Congressman Elijah Cummings who chairs the oversight committee which is investigating trump. Tom So trump tweeted that cummings district is the worst in the U._S._A.. It is a dangerous and filthy place. It is a disgusting rat and rodent infested mass. No human being would want to live there you live there. I live not in U._S.. Congressman Elijah Cummings things district but in an adjoining district I have lived in the city pretty consistently since nineteen eighty nine when I finally got back doc thereafter eight years of trying to get back there as a journalist and I choose to live in the city in a truly urban neighborhood one of the ironies about <hes> trump's tweet storm on Saturdays that I didn't see it until rather late in the day because my neighborhood was at its ninth annual block party which was something we just came together as neighbours and started doing and it's a huge event and bands and a bouncy castle for the kids and the children were running in the street with water guns and there was food and I felt I had to comment on it a little bit and then I backed away. It's so shoddy in terms there's of logic but there's also just as basic disrespect for people who choose to live in cities. It didn't begin to understand that cities are resilient and the fact that we survive or thrive at all in the light of terrible problems isn't to be criticized. It's to be celebrated raided. The president has insulted your city and your former profession journalism. The media is the enemy of the people so so what's your reaction to that when it comes to the criticism of the media I hold the president of the United States responsible danceable for a coarsening of rhetoric that has empowered and emboldened people including the person who came to the Annapolis Capital Gazette AH summer and shot and killed five people including my friend Rob Hutchison and people point to that and they say that's not fair. This was a grudge that predated the two thousand sixteen election year just being slippery with your facts in and and I think it is fair and I tell people of course I think rhetoric matters of course they think words matter look at what I do for a living and at a time time when I know newspapers to be really embattled and the people who were my former newspaper the Baltimore Sun they haven't had a raise for six years. They're down to a skeleton staff and they're doing a great job of covering the city. They're the ones who uncovered the malfeasance feasible set the president then mocked this scandal that engulfed are now former mayor who had to step down. How do you think these stories come to light and to hear what such hard working people do mocked as fake news or lies and SOC- people encouraged not to take them seriously and to consider them enemies? They're the opposite of that. Ah I should mention that you turned in your manuscript or maybe it's that you completed your first draft the day before the shooting at the newspaper that you just mentioned him where your friend was. One of five people who were killed in the book is dedicated to those five people and their families. That's correct <hes> I turned the book and on June Twenty Seventh <hes> my editors in the U._S. and the U._K.. Hot said it sure would be nice. If you could finish by July first so I push myself got it done and as a reward to myself and my daughter we we headed toward the beach where my mother lives and we had just crossed the Chesapeake Recipe Bay Bridge had lunch and I checked with my mother and I said we should be there soon. Did you run into traffic in Annapolis list. She asked me and I said No. Why would I have run to traffic there midday and she said there's been a shooting and what I can't get over is is that micro second of being blase about it of receiving having that news and being almost accepting of it and asking my mother oh where was it and and then of course her answer turn my world upside down because my friend worked there and I knew it was very likely that he would be one of the victims? What what did you think he would be? One of the victims he was an editor so chances are he would be in the newsroom at that time and this is gonNA sound really silly. I spent the next hour and a half on Bluetooth talking to friends from all over the place we were all engaged aged this really magical thinking about why rob would be alive and part of it was as a reporter rob loved to be out of the office rob was sewn at the Baltimore Sun as the person who couldn't stand to be at his desk. He wanted to be out there in the city finding stories but he was an editor and then it was well. Maybe there's a reason he's not checking in on social media and we made up reasons for that and I had literally pulled into my mother's driveway. I can hear the crunch of the shells under my wheels when my friend Jon Morgan Reagan who was on vacation in Michigan and was also very close to Rob John now works at Bloomberg called me and said it's official. He's among the Dad Dad and I burst into tears. I won't repeat the expletive. I said but he's like Jon. He's just so tall you know the idea of this <unk> six five man who couldn't be missed by a shooter and we were both crying laughing at the same time and I- instill crying thinking about it. I don't know how his wife and his kids get by day to day. Maria has his wife has become an amazing champion of groups that aim to stop gun violence in our country and I admire so much so you're a crime writer. I mean your books are all about crimes and solving crimes and a very dear friend of yours. I was actually murdered. Has that affected how you want to write about murder and Crime I. I'm happy to say that at at least I can in good conscience feel that for quite some time now my my work has been centered in respect for victims and a hope that people who read my books Time when some people had started demanding their rights and others were soon about to I started with the year nineteen sixty six because in the wake of the two thousand sixteen presidential election I couldn't figure out how to write about the present and that's not even a partisan opinion. It just felt that it was the time that was at once extremely frenetic and extremely static it felt as if everyone in my life myself included spend their time on almost this hamster wheel of social media the news network of their choice social media the news network on their choice and they would run around around and around and around and they'd be very excited about the breaking story of the day the hour this will change everything things are in nothing would happen and I thought this uses insane. I don't know how to write about Contemporary Times. I've since read novels I think do it really well but they don't go straight at it and I had long planted in my test novels that her parents met against the backdrop of the governor's race of nineteen sixty six and the governor's race of nineteen sixty six Maryland seemed similar in many ways to the the two thousand sixteen presidential race. There was an insider candidate that no one really found that exciting but recognized I had sort of checked all the boxes and had won his place on the ballot through showing up in ascending through the ranks and and there was this outsider who bested more experienced politicians got the nomination and then ran on an overtly racist platform difference in Maryland in nineteen sixty six is the outsider was a Democrat and the staid conventional Republican candidate was Spiro Agnew and Democrats abandoned their party especially African American Erkin Democrats and who can blame them to vote for agnew so I started there. Almost none of this is in the book at this point. It's just way in the background and then I began looking at sixty six in Baltimore and it was a fascinating time it was the year at the end of the year in which a police commissioner surname Donald Pomerleau would arrive and start talking about more truly integrating the Police Department because at the beginning of nineteen sixty six African American officers can either be patrolman or they can be advice and that's it they're not even allowed to drive patrol cars and have radios. That's how segregated the department is and your main character is in a period rid of transition to it's not just the times like she's left her husband. <hes> she's trying desperately to have a career that you really wants as a newspaper newspaper reporter but there's only like one woman had at the newspaper where she wants to work and she's right in the you know not only are the times start in the middle. She's in the middle and there's like she's no longer the miss she used to be when she was seventeen. <hes> and she's really no longer longer mrs because she's in the process of divorcing so ms hasn't been invented yet so she's neither here nor there in terms of her status in the world. There's no word yet to describe her without sounding like she hasn't married yet or or she's married now <hes> so it's an interesting time for women in the mid sixties when when you're writing it's also an interesting timing your family because that's when your father started started writing for newspapers right is what my father came to the Baltimore Sun in Nineteen sixty five he had been the Washington correspondent for the Atlanta Constitution itution and the son that he joined in nineteen sixty five was a legendary newspaper with a much admired Washington bureau where Russell Baker had once worked and far and offices all over the world. I want you to read a paragraph Agra from your novel that describes the News Room when your main character a woman walk into it for the first time Matty's first impression of the newsroom was that it was well filthy filthy and loud so many newspapers piled everywhere people shouting typewriters clocking bell ringing somewhere and so many men but there were women working here. She reminded herself she had read their byline seeing their stories women could be reporters to compare that to your memories of the Baltimore Sun Newsroom when your father worked there in your child and would visit him there. The newsroom that my father joined was one where as an August editorial writer he had a private office with the door he kept a dartboard and there were one point Spiro. Agnew's portrait was at the center of that Dartboard it was loud Caracas and fascinating for people who don't remember Spiro Agnew he became President Nixon's vice president and was basically pushed out of office because us of various corruption scandals he was involved in right. Tell me more about the newsroom Lynn and your impressions of it as a girl. Did you think this is what I WANNA do. When I grow up because you did it for years I found the newsroom very exciting and there's almost sort of like a newsroom annex in her home because as my father had regular poker games with his best friends from the paper so years later when I went to work there I was working alongside many the man who had went sat in our dining room smoking cigars and playing cards it was interesting and intriguing to me as a kid? I wanted to be a novelist it as a college student. I looked around and thought I don't actually know any novelist but if I go to work at a newspaper I can write for a living living and that's what I wanted to do. Did the newspapers seem like a man's world when you started working at it. Yes I mean I started working at newspapers nineteen eighty-one anyone spent eight years in Texas and then I came to the evening sun in nineteen eighty nine and I worked in newsrooms before Anita Hill there are definitely changes made because of the need a hill and newspapers began taking doing the work culture more seriously I was involved in a sexual harassment incident incident involving two of my colleagues. It was very strange and I'm not sure I would have ever complained but my boss I looked over my shoulder and saw what one of them had written to the other about me and said this has to be reported boarded. It's so it's like a pornographic message affect about me and my memory of that is the oddest thing is when it was all over and they decided you know the both of them were lectured on not doing this and this is the mid nineties that's about as but I remember the top editor sort of wanting me to basically say no hard feelings. The kids context was that the man who had so offended me well. He's just neurotic. He goes to see a therapist and I'm sitting there. Thinking King. There are a lot in erotic people in our newsroom who don't write messages like this about their colleagues to. Did you do what was expected of. You say no hard feelings. I don't remember saying no hurt feelings. I remember being desperate for the conversation to end. I was in an interesting position in that. I was a member of the Union as most of us were am very pro union and the head of the Union came to me and said you understand we have to defend them that this is about about process and there is no written rule that this is a firing offense and I said I understand that and I actually couch for it. I believe that that's right. There was no policy at the time that would have been you know zero tolerance and I wanted the Union Union to defend them and I understood that their jobs could be affected and so therefore they were entitled to be represented by the guilt I wouldn't have it any other way. My guest is Laura Lippman. Her new novel is called Lady in the lake support for this N._p._R.. PODCAST and the following message come from better help better help offers licensed professional professional counselors who specialize in issues such as depression stress anxiety and more connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environments at your convenience genius. Get help at your own time and your own pace schedule secure video or phone sessions plus chat and text with your therapist visit better help dot COM com slash fresh air to learn more and get ten percent off your first month. Let's get back to my interview with novelist Laura Lippman. She writes the Popular Test Monitoring Meghan detective series. You know I'm thinking one of the stories in your new novel lady in the Lake <hes> involves the main character Maddie who's the newspaper newspaper. She wants to become a newspaper reporter and her ticket in as that she's found a body and one of the story she's working on leads to the the discovery of another body and she wants to be the person investigating this when she was younger when she was seventeen she had had a relationship with an older man who was actually the father of a boy who the main character had been dating in high school and I don't think it ever quite occurs to her. How predatory a relationship like that probably was no? She's very much a percent sonapur times and I know she's bought into the older man's logic that he's bestowed something special on her that he's seen something special in her. He's flattered her. He is described her as a libertine and someone who wasn't made to live inside the normal strictures of the society they're in and that he was going to give her the freedom to express her body fully and because she is she's a queen and he's a kid and their special they stand you know they're not like everybody else <hes> but you Matti Schwartz in the novel. She's playing what she thinks is a winning hand. She's a beautiful woman. In a world where beauty is pretty much the best thing that a woman can bring to the table and she's been granted that and she plays that card and she's very happy with it doesn't occur courtesy to ever second. Guess it or think well is that right is that fair is that how women should be judge is like this is how women are judged. I got it. I'm going to use it and the older reporter who is a woman at the paper were Maddie's trying to work. She Interact very much but of course there is a chapter from the point of view of the older woman who's been a reporter for a long time covering the Labor beat because you get into the heads of everybody in the book Komo's so I just talk a little bit about creating that dynamic between two generations of working women so I came into newsrooms when women may be five to ten years older than I am had done a lot of the heavy lifting there were run sued really like like knocked in the door and they had to be so tough and I always said I was of the generation where we had now reached the point where one could go cry in the bathroom. You still can cry in public that you could cry in the bathroom and I did a lot of crying in the bathroom when I wiz reporter and so I kind of kept backing it up and thinking okay and so the generation before that how much tougher did they have to be. I mean they've always been women reporters US you know but they've and they've always been tough as nails in my opinion in the best possible way and you know I know that as a a young reporter I often seemed silly and flighty to some of the women I worked with perhaps fairly so and Dan you know aspired to have them. Take me seriously because they took themselves seriously and they took the business seriously so I was was really aware of all of that history when you'd be crying in the bathroom. What are some of the things you'd be crying about? The one that stands out most vividly in my mind is when I'm very young reporter in Waco Texas and we get these little slips slips of paper and our mail slots I used this to certain similarity to like and you would have this assignment written on a piece Lisa paper and one day I reached into my box and I was asked to go cover the Christening ceremony if you will for the new public bathrooms in a city park and the thing that just destroyed me was first of all the the editor who gave me this assignment with no sense of fun or irony or any idea that he was making a very bad joke asked me me to get all the poop so that was indignity number one but the worst part was the last three the words were no big deal in case. I thought this is my big break. No big deal you know dampen. Those hopes it's it's really not it's not going to be a page one story and at that moment I just thought is this my life and I can still see myself standing in the bathroom at the Waco tribune-herald crying and looking out at the parking lot. Did you read the story. Oh yes try to get an interesting angle. You know <hes> twenty three. I was not not capable of that later. In my reporting career I would have been like let's go and one of the things that I came to over. Twenty years of journalism is that I realized that the best stories I I always paraphrase <hes> Auden in his poem to in memory of Yates places where executives would never want to tamper and over twenty years as a reporter. I really wanted to be where executives I would never want to tamper didn't WANNA cover presidential. Politics didn't want to be in a big scrum of reporters. I wanted to be the reporter who went out and talked to the high school English teacher who built his own speed bumps in his alley because he couldn't get the county to do it. That was my idea of heaven by the time I was coming to the end of my reporting career. We need to take another short break here so let me reintroduce you if you're just joining us. My guest is Laura Lippman. She's famous for her test. Montague detective series her new novel is a standalone called lady in the lake. We'll be right back. This is fresh air support for this N._p._R.. PODCAST and the following message come from Curio collection by Hilton with all Curio collection by Hilton Hotels. There's something more to discover her. Take the Foodie forward resorts of Silence Goon in the Maldives and the eager on hotel in Spain eager owns Michelin starred chef Diego Guy Iago's romances pallets with multicultural and environmentally friendly dishes silence goon takes personalization to a new level by using natural ingredients to create unique unique plates for each guest. Are you curious visit Hilton Dot com slash N._p._R.. Going on a big group trip always sounds good in theory green but it can get tricky when you get there and have totally different expectations checkout N._p._R.. Life kids new guide on navigating group travel or subscribe to life kit all all guys for all our episodes all in one place. My guest is Laura Lippman. She's famous for her testimony again. Detective Series set in Baltimore where Littman lives and now she has a standalone novel also set in Baltimore and it's called lady in the lake <hes> so <hes> matter your main character in lady in the Lakers Jewish tests Mongan. The character in your detective series is not you're Jewish. You're not Jewish. I some Jewish. It's complicated complicated so my grandfather Theodore Whitman was the son of Jewish emigrants <hes> he married into a Protestant family and my father grew up with zero knowledge of Judaism. Oh I I ended up babysitting for the family of an Orthodox rabbi when I was in college and I have now married into a Jewish family and I am raising my daughter as it you at a wonderful synagogue in Baltimore. Although I consider myself an atheist but I think I'm an inescapably Jewish and I've found that people who are patrilineal jus with lapsed parents often feel this way and I feel very much at home within the Jewish faith. Even though I don't practice it or believe it it feels kind of second nature to me and of course every year because of my husband my daughter and my the in laws I observe all of the Jewish holidays more more so than I do any Christian wants tests was actually created as the inverse of me in that she has a Jewish mother and a Catholic father so by you know she he is a Jewish because she has a Jewish mother. Even though she's non-practising and wasn't raised on the Fed that she goes through life with this Irish Catholic surname and search you know she's freckled and she has reddish brown hair and people often say incredibly antisemitic things in front of her assuming agreement I was raised a Presbyterian but my last name is Lippman and throughout my journalism career I received a lot of antisemitic hate mail bill and there is once even this hilarious episode on twitter where when I condemned monuments to the confederacy as a native of the South I woke up the next morning and found out that there had been a twitter investigation to whether or not I was Jewish. Well which I thought was hilarious. After years of being a newspaper reporter and anomalous you started writing personal essays that are really good <hes> and I'm wondering if there was a change in your life that made you think that you're going to open up your own life as subject matter and not write about things in your life through the transformative power of fiction so I think as a former journalist and current novelist I actually had a lot of skepticism about the personal personal essay and I worried that some of the young women I knew were exploiting their own lives in a way that many worried for them like don't tell that story but I found myself suddenly wanting to tell personal stories raise and I think a lot of that was rooted in my father stuff after my dad died in December of two thousand and fourteen I saw there were stories I could tell because he wouldn't be around to be embarrassed by them but even when he was alive I had sort of found myself veering into personal essays by accident those asked you write about my favorite bar in in Baltimore and I became very bittersweet essay about my father and me began with I stole my father's bar. I never meant into and it became this meditation on you know how kids are almost rapacious and respect nothing in their parents lives. They just figure it's is all theirs for the taking I wrote a piece of my mother who's still alive and how the Christmas stocking that she made for for my daughter seems to have turned out to be the last Christmas docking shall ever knit not for any reason of frailty are anyway so I wandered into it and I. I felt like I had this really original SORTA. which is what it's like to be the oldest mom always so you decided to become a mother and and by the time you became a mother you're you were fifty one which is a very unusual age for a lot of reasons including the physical ones? Most women can't become pregnant at that age nor could I so you know I found a different way to add a child to our family which was telling my husband was very keen to do. I want to stop happy there because your husband had a child from a previous marriage <hes> this was your second marriage but you didn't have a child and you said most people assume like Oh so you want one of your own but it was really your husband who is leading the way in wanting another child <hes> so what what was your role in deciding citing. Yes I guess I won't want to I want one two at the age of fifty one. My husband persuaded me that there there was something wonderful about making a family and that yes I had the wonderful wonderful problem of having stepson whom I consider perfect. My Stepson is one of the most perfect lovely people I've ever known in my life. He's twenty five now and I just adore him so I was like you're not gonna get a better one and but I understood that there is like like a bonding that my husband wanted with me that for him involved having a child and I I talked to a good friend a man who you know had said. He told me he said look if the person you love wants a kid. That's a pretty good reason to have a kid I mean I wasn't Anti Hi Kid I. I was just always a person who's been really quick to throw in the towel and is like hey. I'm in my forties. I'm on a second marriage. I don't don't get to have Could do this. We did you feel like not having a kid was settling for last or did you feel like you hadn't wanted to have a child earlier so that you'd have have more freedom to do what you did to become a newspaper writer and to become a novelist and a bestselling novelist at that you were doing two do things at one time you were reporting during the first five novels that you wrote <hes>. I'm not sure there'd be time to be a parent and do all that to there wouldn't have been but I had assumed I would be a mother at some point and I didn't find it to be a huge drive and I don't think it would have been tragic to me not to be a mother but I also think that I am easily persuaded swayed to settle for less and I sort of looked at my life and I said well so this is kinda weird. I've kind of done the career stuff in it's going well and we have some resources that aren't available to us because we're so advanced in our careers we have financial resources. The biggest drawback and being older parent is your mortality suddenly has much higher stakes. You keep doing the math. How old will I be you when she reaches a certain age and I didn't realize what was inside of mantle? I sat down to write that essay. What what was inside of you that you didn't realize <hes> <hes>? I didn't realize that I wanted to make the case for me being an older mother. I don't WanNa tell any other woman or man on the planet what to do. When it comes to kids I find it offensive when people lecture other people and say you must have a child? I'm not crazy about people who say oh my God. Having a child is such a big mistake. I am somewhat sympathetic to the argument that maybe we have to start thinking about <hes> having children as as part of the climate change issue in front of us and that the world population has become very political. I wanted to write my personal story about how much joy and hope hilarity and consternation about word I had found being a parent to a young child. Just I just I just wanted to tell my story about it because I thought it was funny and specific and no one else could tell it what I they didn't expect was that this very specific story of being the oldest mom would resonate with so many women I know I hang out with much younger women because they had their children at more traditional ages and it's it's kind of a great and interesting perspective. I forget how old I am because I'm so used to being with people who are twenty twenty five years younger than <hes>. I was chatting with one of my favorite mom friends at the street fair on Saturday and I think I'm the same age as her mom but it just doesn't unconscious. I just wanted to tell this really personal story. It was gratifying to see how people respond to it. Let's take a short break here and then we'll be back if you're just joining us. My guest is Laura Lippman who's famous for her testimony again detective series now. She has a new novel. That's a standalone called lady in the lake. We'll right back. This is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message come from K. Buxbaum in support of the David Gilkey and Zaba Ula Tomato Memorial Fund and established to strengthen N._p._R.'s commitment to training and protecting journalists in high risk environments support for N._p._R.. Comes from W._H._y._y.. Presenting presenting the pulse a podcast that takes you on adventures into unexpected corners of health and science plastic in the guts of deep sea creatures crying after anesthesia anesthesia building your own Internet each episode is full of fascinating stories and big ideas the pulse available where you get your podcasts or at W._h._y._y.. U. H. Y.. Y. Dot Org my guest is novelist Laura Lippman when your daughter was still an infant people would come up to you and go. Oh your granddaughter her. How did that make you feel when people comment that way? I'm actually trying to be really sympathetic. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to say it is it's fair game so I tried so so hard to come up with something to say that would be accurate but kind and I would say no. I'm her mother but I am old enough to be her grandmother other and as I noted in the essay which surprises me is how hard people double down on why they were right asked me that question Christian and I think sometimes they get embarrassed and flustered and it makes them almost aggressive to get out of the situation and I don't know maybe I should just say hey thanks except now that my daughter's older it affects her right and kids are so sensitive so we've talked about it a lot and and she's like why do people even talk about this. I don't know but they do so. Let's just be as gracious as we can. What has surprised you most about about being a mother? I'm good at it. Never saw that coming. Is that one of the things that hold you back from becoming a mother's others thinking like I'm not GonNa do very this. Yes I did not think that I had an ideal temperament and of all the things I struggle with as a parent Perritt. Patience is probably there but I'm learning it. I'm learning to to be kinder in some ways because kids say incredibly hurtful things and I think it's human to want to go. Oh toe-to-toe with them. I hate you. You WanNa say something back but yeah I'm. I'm pretty good at it. What are you saying you want? Your daughter says a hit you. If I'm having my best day my best day my best moment moment is like I can see why you would feel that way right now. If I'm having my worst day I might say well. Why don't you just open the door? Go find a better mom your husband. David Simon is very well known because he created the wire and Tra may to have two of his serious for H._B._O.. And he's now adapting Philip Roths bestselling novel the plot against America. You are both newspaper reporters. Did you meet at the newspaper. We met at the newspaper. I think it was nineteen ninety because when I arrived at the evening Sun David was on leave writing the book that would become homicide we met it's a cute story because because I came to work one day this would have been a ninety or ninety one and I had a bladder one of those big old fashion paper things with the calendar and my blotter was covered in coffee stain and I looked around. I said WHO was working at my desk last night and someone said Simon was there and I I was furious and costed him and said you spill coffee all over my desk and you bought it up with the blotter and he admitted that he had and he the apologized and I asked him to give me a copy of his book homicide and we still have it obviously in its inscribed. Do you want cream with that hun and he was my colleague for the years he was at the son he took the same by out as my dad in nineteen ninety five in nineteen ninety seven we got to know each other a little bit better because we were both promoting our second books that fall and then his his marriage ended later. My marriage ended and you know we call it small tumour for a reason they're just not that many people and so it just seemed natural to start dating and you know W- we ended up moving in together. I think within two years starting today and then marrying a couple years after that was showing your and your husband David Santa got married you you got married by John Waters. Did he like find a way to officiate like did he do a kind of send away for <hes> for for whatever your credential you need. John actually been what's called a universal life minister for quite some time. I believe he had married sixteen or Seventeen nineteen couples before he married us and he was actually kind of trying to get out of the marrying game. I don't remember how we convinced him to do it for us. I mean David in particular shares a good friend in common with John Pat Moran the Casting Director of Baltimore. John took took it so seriously it was so touching I mean it was very straightforward. We decided to marry in secret which would later get us both in a lot of trouble with our respective families who did not like this. We married on our deck on a beautiful October Day. Any only person present beside John was Ethan Ethan. My Stepson David Son is in would have been thirteen at the time and I had rewritten the vows so it said that <hes> <hes> this is a point in traditional wedding ceremony where someone often the father is ask if he gives us permission we would like to ask Ethan for Permission Mission to join these two families as he will be the person most affected by this isn't being thirteen years years old at the time said Yeah. I guess so that was it. I WanNa thank you so much for talking with us. It's really just been a pleasure. I it's been a delight for me. Lor Lipmans new novel is called Lady in the lake tomorrow fresh air our guest will be Jeffrey Fowler who will talk about some of the ways our phones computers and Smart Speakers Harvest and use information formation about us for instance. He says while you're sleeping your smartphone is sharing personal data with companies. You've never heard of Valor Rights
Episode 3: Mark Roberts Transferable Skills and Industry Jobs
"Something brought you here to where you are today. A trust confidence that you can delve into the unknown of a masterpiece the project and come out with answers to questions nations that no one has asked before this confidence is what fueled you so far and during this time it has grown with you it may have suffered some blows and weaken now and then but it has become one of your greatest strengths today we'll be talking with Mark Roberts about how candidates with master's and doctoral doctoral degrees are valued in the job market and about how the pressure and challenges of Grad School help develop traits that are prized by employers in certain industries welcome to papa. PhD With David Mendez The podcast where we explore careers in life after Grad school with guests who have walked the road less traveled leveled and have unique stories to tell about how they made their place in the world of constantly evolving rules get ready to go off the beaten path and hop on for an exciting new episode of Papa PhD before we dive into today's episode. I just WanNa let you know that I've prepared for you a resource sheet to help you take a snapshot of your current situation and start defining your profile profile for the job market in your areas of interest you can download it by visiting Papa. PhD Dot Com and following the instructions in the website footer welcome come to the show so today we're talking career choices with mark. Roberts mark made the move from academia to industry after completing his PhD in ecology and evolutionary biology at Princeton and teaching appointments at Yale McGill since two thousand and three he has is held different employee and freelance positions as a medical writer and editor this year mark partnered with former colleagues to found stratton him a specialty medical communications firm comprising network of Expert Consultants. Welcome to the PODCAST mark. Thanks David I appreciate you having gone and I'd just just like to say I think your podcast is a great idea and I really wish there'd been something like this for me to refer to when I was considering leaving academia. That's the idea it's to give back to the community so thank you so now. I'm GonNa let you talk a little bit more about yourself and how you got here. Okay sure maybe what I'll do is I'll. I'll work backwards and I'll just say a little bit about what I'm doing. Now the new company that started with the colleagues stratton him it's a medical communications since company that works with different clients at pharmaceutical companies around the world to help them to convey basically the research behind their products to convey that research to decision makers like scrubbers you know doctors and also government apply health plans that reimburse those prescriptions. Chen's the kind of things we do include projects like working with study investigators on a clinical trial to develop manuscripts tips for peer reviewed by medical journals we'll also help develop posters and slide shows for medical conferences and we also work with teams at the Pharma companies to develop purely internal documents for their own use one of the the main types of projects me wear con as something called global value dossier and that's a big compendium of all information on the disease the current treatments the disease also kind of what the gap is in those current treatments unmet beat new drug. They have brings to the table we we've really got a very strong focus on drugs for rare diseases and this is kind of a personal preference for me because I find it really really rewarding to work in this area where there's a huge unmet need for effective treatments and so a new drug for one of these rare diseases seizes. It really makes a huge difference in the lives of patients abso. That's what I'm doing now. It's it's quite shift for somebody who in Grad school who'll studied foraging behavior of hummingbirds for for my my last degree inheritance patterns of polymorphism. I am in butterflies so nothing remotely later excellent well. That's that's what I want to hear about how you got from one to the other so so you're you when you were mentioning your your graduate studies and your research in the end how they're very different from what you doing now so can you can you go back in time a little bit and and let us know it was finishing your studies for you. How was a Grad School. How how did it go especially Did you have any obstacles difficulties. or you know finishing the ideas is a little bit to talk to listeners that might be finishing or they might have just finished and to and to tell us how you went through that that the transition Paul. I'll say that it's something that have to take a step even further back than the grads to answer that question ever ever since I was a very small child I was fascinated by animals and and their behavior and it was probably around the age of five or six ears that I discovered there was a job call zoologists greatest awesome so I was set. That's all I ever wanted. Let's be from the moment. I found that about that. I never wanted to be a fireman or astronaut note just just so that took me all the way to university into my PhD program and that's when during the PhD program that I discovered working on the same specialized question for years on end was just not my cup of tea The the part I liked best about what it was crunching my data and rising up you know it was nice to see my research in Prenton at I had the luck of getting a paper into science. It's and that was fun that ask for that. No that gratification it was very short lived every time and so just an emotional perspective it didn't justify all the research needed no all the experiment tation and planning needed to make that possible you know in my psyche and I know it's different for everyone and it was funny because I think it was clear to even the profs that I was not you know having a great time there and at my thesis defense when they had sent everybody else out of the room and we're gonNA make their decision they my my adviser adviser asked me. Okay Mark One question. Did you enjoy your pitch and I can you at the right time so but I knew he would expect me to give the truth and I said well. No he said congratulations you free. That's really how it's you know it's interesting is so you had a calling mm-hmm but then the nitty gritty of how things actually are done ended up not fulfilling your your your needs your personality. It's your interest. That's exactly the case but you found out that you were good at crunching numbers writing up and that you liked it so you know there's always two sides to to acquaint yeah. That's that's actually how I decided what to do. After because the one I really enjoyed back than was that end stage of communicating the research and so after being an academia for a really long time. I wanted to do something that was more plied where could see a real world impact a to it and I figured that I should look for a field of business where I can use my experience interests from Grad school and the things that I liked aw man that and what I found was medical writing okay so that was that was really great because you know honestly no matter under what your branch biology's and university studies just by virtue of doing a graduate degree there he developed a familiarity with biological logical systems and how to do an experiment. It's like an intuition you know so so say clinical trial has been done. It's very easy for us us to understand it study design you know things like disease. Pro Sees mechanisms of action of drugs. It's it's not really that hard to adapting so just the jargon and terminology were a Lotta medical no medical terms and things like that we may need to study them afterwards but a huge part of them we you just by going through the studies and all the different subjects that we study we we know them so. I agree well so you were lucky to have you had a calling then you you had some sort of disenchantment with it but in that process you found your new calling so that that's pretty cool yes yeah so now given that that there was this disenchantment adleman and that often if for people now going to their they may hit this wall of of well. Oh this is not just doesn't exactly go the same way that I had pictured it in my mind growing up how what attitude what main attitude what principal can you share that that accompanied you and that A. Ah empowered you to new to say okay no even though this is not exactly what I was imagining. I'm going to you know push through and I'm GONNA. Finish rush and I'm going to complete my studies. I never ever considered dropping out so even though I wasn't having the best time with research there were so many other aspects to my program that I got so much out of you know social aspects even just the friends that I had in Grad school that I really never ever thought that I'm GonNa drop USC. HD I had a very long time that degree seven years I did take one year out in there but overall from beginning to end it a seven years and by the time I got to the end. I was just so ready to finish it at that was quite motivating. Okay get wrapped up so I know a lot of people kind of at that end stage they get stuck and you know kind of start spinning their wheels that didn't happen actually had an easier time getting things out slowing at the end than in the beginning in the middle so you had the this this impetus to finish and that was fueling you so. I feel that also you you know and also no. He knew that you're you're the type of person who we'll start something and finish it because that's how we roll right. That's right and this was this something which wasn't being done for anybody what else you know. It wasn't doing that degree for approval from anybody outside. It was just something that since childhood. I knew I wanted to do mad at. I've never ever regretted doing that degree. where I went and finishing it's it's given me skills that I use on a daily basis of course of course and even though it feels that you know you were self motivated you you went into into the project because of your own passion for for the the domain for the study area were there still moments especially when you were finishing and and thinking okay after this comes comes the job market with their moments were you. You had a few years. you had the anxieties about okay. What's coming next next. How am I going to you know. Show an employer that I'm yes. I've studied all these years but I am employable and I have skills that I can that I can put the Prophet Right while I had a little bit of a transition period that buffered that chocolate join straight from Grad at school into medical writing because one thing that I absolutely love during my graduate career was teaching undergrads okay co you know ever since my masters of Science at University of British Columbia that wasn't the department every year I. Ta'ed of the Teaching Assistant and then when I was at Princeton I was a TA as well out and then when I finished my research there for my ph I taught one semester in population ecology at Yale Okay and then came back home to Canada and taught the bio stats and methods in biology courses at McGill university. That's very very interesting. I feel that that probably that's what you're going to say but that there's also a lot of commonality between that experience in what you do today. I mean teaching and and helping people understand concepts and reach academic objectives. I feel that that has probably also given given you a lot of tools and a lot of skills that you use daily nowadays. That's one hundred percent true. you know also. I don't get the feedback of stunning in the classroom and interacting events. I still feel that I'm helping people to understand something. They didn't know before because really that's what medical writing is about doubted explaining the design and the results of a study and putting those in context so that's really very similar to teaching the one using that also helped me was because I was teaching in a university context they went from Grad school to another university and then to another university and and then there was some continuity there but I realized pretty soon that it would be difficult to make a respectable salary just us teaching you really mean to be full trough and then you're you're teaching but you're also obliged to do your research into your grant applications nations and those were things that were me so it was during the time that I was lecturing the that I had the idea of making the move to medical writing and honestly although it might seem. I'm a bit scary to leave the university environment that have been in for so many years when you think about it when you're in your graduate degree. You have to find a question that nobody in the world knows the answer to right. I saw support and then you set out to answer that question yourself now. That's pretty graves uh-huh. I'm never sure so compared to Grad School. What I do now is is pretty much failure proof knuckle down and do my work of course so oh I I feel that people who have gone through a graduate degree do obtain that or they shared hopefully obtain that self confidence that no I went into something where success listen guaranteed and I figured out a way to make get work for me and if you can do that that in business afterwards you just remind yourself of of how argued that and it's really powerful and I actually do that consciously. It's funny because I interviewed someone not so long ago who from his current office can see the the the institute where where he did his his PhD research and the and he says that whenever he has difficult moments he said the whenever a difficult moment comes up at work he looks back at the Institute and says I know this is not difficult at all. I'M GONNA I'm GonNA definitely beat this and it's going to be fine. It's exactly exactly what you what you're saying. Being the the you know the kind of a direct the direct effect of looking at your institutes exactly just seeing it seeing where you've been in the flesh and I would imagine that they would have the exact same feeling they were grateful for going through that experience variants because it it just kind of like an inoculation against the fears and insecurities of business so it's I'm GonNa jump questions you kind of touched on something that makes me want to ask this which is it's it has to do with with transferable skills and the question is you know people might think that that upon leaving Grad School after PG and jumping into the pool of finding a job and defining earning their non academic career that you know they may think Oh. I have lost this many years because I didn't get any real life skills skills already from what you said before you've mentioned some some skills that you even today are still making in use of the activities that you develop but I'd I'd like to maybe ask you to be a little more specific in sharing. Maybe what two or three skills have been your greatest assets in reorienting your career and which ones have been valued the most by your employers so your peers in in the in your domain of work right well. I would say that I understand where that that question is coming from because I did hear similar. concerns from friends of mine were also thinking thinking of doing something different that you know they had worked on really really specialized question and at quite often it say kind of a catch to because you feel that you're overqualified in that you have this very high academic degree and therefore you would expect a certain status in life now and if you if you were to continue in academia team you would end up as a frost which is a prestigious position so on the one hand you feel you have something valuable valuable but on the other you question whether the actual skills that you have acquired are really transferable and able to secure you an equally well paying a respected position outside of academia so that's the flip side of it and what. I'd say the hardest thing for me when I made the shift from academia to medical writing. was that the first medical adding job. I charter the salary was about two-thirds I would sake was I thought I was worth but I the end I took it because I really wanted to break into that industry and I I figured I wouldn't be stuck at that salary for long which turn up between featuring so I think that's a worry but what I would say is that anybody goes through a a graduate degree the skilled up they learn not the ones who know fail out. Obviously the wants to succeed him. Get the degree they develop Philip problem solving ability thing. I mean he's thinking about your own research. You had to figure out how to answer your thesis question right down so so that that problem solving ability is a really huge assets and I'd say one of the biggest advantages people with masters or Ph d have over someone who only did her bachelor's. Is that much more experience problem solving thanks to their own research. you know unless unless you did independent research research during your bachelors the past there is pretty. Well laid up you to follow in your coursework. in my second medical writing position mm-hmm that I helped I managed a team of medical writers. I was the managing editor there and so is doing a lot of hiring of new medical writers and what I found the skeleton your question about what employers value but I found is that the ones that I hired him. They were straight out of a graduate degree. They hadn't done any work. In Industry Apple they were still more adaptable in that a business setting then candidates who came with only a bachelors even if they had actually been out for a while and I I think that that's the the real concrete skill that graduate school teaches you and people perhaps don't give themselves solved credit for having picked it up so being able to adapt to new situations and to find solutions in a creative solutions to sometimes this complex problems yeah that and also the confidence to know that you've done it before so there's no reason to think he will just keep doing it right. You have the track record of album solving the other thing. That is a concrete the skill that you would acquire in Grad school is attention to detail because that is critical in me search and hopefully most of US anyway who goes to Grad School. They improve that skill during our time there sure yeah. I mean you know from your friends. There are some you know people with masters and Ph means who are you'd still say that person not so detail oriented but but I think if you compare them coming out of Gresley to how they were going into it they've improved their attentions tepes now yeah and that is so critical to anything you do all employees value so all employers value employees. He's who have a really well developed attention to detail okay so so what I'm hearing is because these are very you know the the the pillars in skillset but what you're saying is then that specific skills or skill specific to a particular industry three can then be acquired. You know someone who has gone through. All those studies can relatively easily study study and learned this specific skills that they'll need in in their new job. Yes and I think that if if somebody's in Grad school now now and getting close to finishing and they're starting to sweat what am I going to do after now that use it what they should do is actually right down the list list pity attention and write down a list of those aspects of academia that you do like and those skills that you exercise in doing those sides of your degree and then starting about what industries and rolls out there. I would allow you to continue to do those things right and of course at the same time you want really honest about what you hate that school will to try and minimize your exposure to those things and then in the new job at honesty yourself right yeah. You have to be honest with yourself but I think a a lot of the time we don't take a few minutes is all it means to open a word document and start writing down list but until you Matt it's hard. I suddenly didn't then for sure it. It must help. It's very good very good piece of advice there yeah to make it did more concrete in my case as I said what I liked was analyzing data and writing it up so I knew first of all. I had a a very strong qualitative. sorry quantitative aptitude. I was good presenting my data as a medical roger you have have to decide the best way to put together a graph you also need to be just a really good writer of English and that's not something that comes from your graduate degree at all. It's something that you get from the lifetime of of Reading or you don't have it so I've never found people to be able to improve their standard of mitton English of very very much by the got it or not so I guess in this industry. It's a pass or fail type thing. You'd be amazed at how many me really bad writers seem to make a living in medical communications field but it's something clients appreciate a lot when they get somebody who can write well. They don't spend their time correcting their grammar. that's not their job so you know those those were the skills. I could see I had and so I looked around will what out there is a job where I could use those skills and had medical writing just came up and the other aspect too is I knew that from my experience with the teaching that I really needed to have something that paid eight a decent salary and it just struck me that the pharmaceutical industry probably had money to support that kind of ova position so that's that's of course through all right so I feel like you you know you were on this on your your boats and and you're able to chart the path to to success without the fairly low amount of of of difficulty which which she's great so you started started giving some advice and this kind of segues into the next set of questions that I'd like to ask which are about university about the university as an environment where either you know if if you're still doing doing your graduate studies or you're finishing you've just finished. That's there's you know they're still in my in my experience. There's a lot to gain from being in that environment. You talked about friends. you know you you now talked about okay taking time in your final years or months to explore and see what's out there that that fits your profile. My first question would be if you have any advice on how to make the most of your time at at university especially in Grad School leading to your future in non-academic career because it could happen that once you've decided okay. This is not what I wanNA do after again. People might feel like Oh. I'm I'm not. I'm not an actual outsider. I'm kind of an impostor finishing this but I I you know I don't belong. There's nothing here for me and I'd like your opinion on that and maybe also tell us you know of tools that you know in universities that can help people choose their their path after graduating well. I'll I'll take that as two separate questions really because there's the what the question about what tools are available to you in your university that you can use the head start you know to to moving out and that. I don't really know that much about I can't say that I took advantage of any like career services or anything what I did do. When I was the managing editor at the Company referred to earlier I did go to career days at the University of Michigan and that was great way to meet Grad student sewer considering something different from neck so you know that's something something if you're on the fence about remaining in Grad school I would definitely recommend seeing if there are career. Services is an career days that you can attend now. The other thing that you had had started asking was the impostor syndrome league yeah exactly like when you're when you're wrapping up but you're not finding that you're really in any more you know. You do feel almost like you're letting down. The people around you and yet is a really real sick and it's a hard thing because you're you'll never get encouragement from the professors to pursue a life outside talk of academia or you know the number will encourage that is pretty small you know for those of us in A. Uh Truly Academic Graduate Program Rather Than Say Med school where obviously and you are going to specific job exactly but there is kind of a sense that almost outside a little bit dirty and tainted whereas you know in our in our ivory tower reach him do experiments just for the joy of discovery at advancing the knowledge which actually I still to this stay believers the only rationale that needs to exist for doing research and we should keep it that way and and and I'm glad that many of my colleagues are still excited by that and want to continue in it but it just for me personally. It wasn't the best bitch so I would. I would not try to resist that feeling of being an impostor or rushing down your peers because you're not you're just charting your own path and you're not ignoring every singing burned in Grad school as I said I is it on a daily basis and I could not do what I now had I not. What's the program yeah. That's a great point in the yeah. I must've syndrome. It's I think it's natural but I'd like to. I have to find that there's probably a publication of percentages of people coming out of Grad school and where they go after and I would imagine that you know a fairly large percentage does not stay in academia but they still you know they do their graduate studies. They go through do and like you say it's a heritage. Sir Treasurer that they'll carry with them and it'll help them throughout their the professional life for sure. Yes you know just having those letters after your name is a big deal. and there are DR jobs in industry. That will be forever close to you. If you do not have like I said my was on nothing related to so the medical field does matter it could be anything the fact that you have demonstrated your ability to do independent research and get an accredited. APP is It's all you need to kind of prove your worst yeah as I hadn't. I never looked at it like that. It's it's through in the end them well. Maybe it's something I I'd like to look into also is and I guess you know with with these interviews. I'll start having an we'll start a you know the listeners to having a better idea of all the types of jobs that PC's and up and up working on and we're having that has probably been part of wide they got these these positions yes the PhD end unto Undervalue Masters Either I spent four years working on my master's research in many ways the study I did was perhaps more impressive than research but you know for people who have a master preferably if they come to me and my colleagues at Stratton Him that's something that right off the bat we we look at as a good sign we really would consider somebody without in fact we are interested in. What was your research on. Tell us about it so he did matches the profiling the two looking for yeah yeah there's that that kind of mindset of being confidence itself complemented and detail oriented Austin people like that you kind of want to be loss right and so oh what we built miss the stratagem was accompanying where instead of being a corporation with lots of employees basically an umbrella for people like ourselves so people would come on board as independent consultants rather than employees and when new products come in we looked to see which of Arkansas TMZ let's have a good fit in terms of their interests and their expertise and then we'd offer those well the project but they would never be under. You're an obligation to accept that given project. I'm so it's really more like a platform yeah platform for them. obviously that means as flipside that there's no guarantee they'll be a project or a given consultants months from now so so it wouldn't work for somebody who's afraid of the unknown or doesn't have the independence and confidence to cultivate other clients but more for very independent folks. It's the perfect match I guess they can tailor their workload as they as they wish exactly yup excellent. That's very interesting. actually now you mentioned that you have spent a certain amount of time a considerable amount of time. I'm hiring people and I have some questions that that pertain to that in in a certain way but given that you've visit you've had that role for a for a certain amount of time and that you've gone through different. CV's and interviews I'm going to turn the questions a a little bit on the you know turn them around a little bit different and these would be what habits would you would you advise people that are finishing or there have just finished and that want to present themselves upsell their CV to employer what habits or resources do would you advise them to use to to improve their abilities of again of of promoting themselves on the job market Gee. That's a good question question. it's not something that we're used to thinking of. Doing you know selling ourselves exactly myself until I got to that point. It was take out of my you know my radar completely and you know given that you interviewed a lot of people as throughout your career like what what what would you say. Maybe if it's complicated. Maybe go another way. What's a model. Let's say of a candidate ended at that has impressed you. Let's say an ideal candidates how you know what what can our listeners due to to reach reach that level of okay. This person is presenting really well. They're really you know they've they're showing the value of their CV. They're showing you know. They're hitting all the stops in terms of okay. This interview was good. This is a candidate that I need to interview again right yeah that's a great eight question having sat on the other side of the table and at many different styles of CB's coming at me and many different our personalities on the on the other side I think what I look for is somebody who seems to have a plan and that's that's something which you'd sink everybody would have with a graduate degree because you had to devise a plan of attack to and reaching the objective had research right yeah. An- and that's great practice relies life after because you're really will never get a Bangoura messing can describe to yourself and to others like your interviewer where you want to get to a question that often I would ask of of candidates where they see themselves five years okay so you really want to have some answers about you know where you where's. Where's it you want to go and and have a plan to get there and somebody who's interviewing. You will want to see that that you've you've saw about it that you're not just letting the current carry wherever it wants to go that you're actually directing yourself the very very interested in having a plan being okay okay. Having a plan is one but I keep coming back to self confidence big carriers really the candidates from that first handshake and sitting across from you they you just have a feeling like Oh yeah yeah. I think this one is going to work out. It's they have that self confidence. They're they're. They're not desperate. You know and they're not meeting. They come in with a sense of their own value. adds ads they convey that to me as the interviewer so often wondered what it is that makes one person self-confident another shy I don't have the answer to that but if anybody out there does if it's you you listening tried work on it unless you know you're already very confident because it will make big difference. I think it definitely can be worked worked on for sure I myself was in my youth like timid and more of a shy person and a well. Actually I must say going through the beach the presenting your data week after week to a room full of people and I've also taught a little bit before a little bit like you teeing in in university but it's definitely something people can in can work on and I'm GonNa WanNa have someone from from one of these career career service offices but but I I seem to remember that at McGill you could even do a practice interviews and so because has definitely if if it's not in your nature because you're more introverted you're shy etc.. How can I say it's not a deal breaker. It's definitely something I think. People can work on the thing is finding the resources and wherever you're in diversity is for sure people should go to their careers center or the the you know the person or the the service that takes care of that and see what resources they have for you because there's nothing like like rehearsing in because again the this tell me if I'm if you agree with me. The interview is kind of a dance especially the first one yes. You're you're getting a feel of the employer. The employer is getting a feel of you and like what's that cliche that comes up all the the time. He can never make another first impression. I get the chance to do it. Exactly percents definitely true you know and it's kind of like if you're an actor or a singer how do you how are you able to go on stage in and please them an audience well by rehearsing and I'm GonNa be oversimplifying but I was going to say it's as simple as that is used the tools that are around you and universities now have very very good services that help people you know that even to the point of doing fake interviews which is awesome and it may feel or seem weird if something like this existed at your university and you're you're thinking of going through interviews. It's going to be it priceless list for you. Go and do it because you that you'll have that firm handshake because you will have practices you have that voice. That's not trembling because you've practiced it and rehearse it a anyway. Tell me if you agree and if you have may be something to add but I would say if this is available where you were you're studying definitely us is the service I would do it. I would do it even if you're planning to stay in academia and the reason is that the interview is is a an interaction that you have all the time life even if it's not for a job even if you're meeting somebody new who you've never met before at a party. Not you know or any kind of social event. You're meeting a new person. If you are a good interviewer you know how to present yourself well right off bat. You know how to engage the person you're talking to. You know how to make yourself seen positive so even if you're planning to stay in you should definitely take advantage and practice interviewing because you'll have to interview for an academic position in the Tetteh Auto Fisher exactly yeah exactly interesting excellent well. I'm super happy to have you on specifically because because of this question and and because I know all the baggage that you know the experience that you bring a in that domain and and you know once you've done I know one hundred. I don't know how many many interviews you can almost see the perfect candidate in if you to close your eyes you can hear what they sound like you can feel their handshake shaken the so that's super super important in and great input you know but I'll just one one quick point too that although it's important to be self confident that is not the same thing as being cocky are entitled totally so an employer or and this could be for a university position or job outside up. We'll be turned off big time. If you come across as Kinda the full of yourself and I actually had a candidate a candidate who sent him there see me for a job that at posted and I called them and they were just very low energy on the call seemed to be you know doing something else time okay and I said well. Maybe we should bring you in for an interview. They said yeah why not I said well. How about we don't know. Oh Oh no. That's just not the attitude that an employer wants of course companies now are teams and often be teams in people need to the you know you have to be personable and and humble in the just there needs to be a sense that you're willing to pay some induce at maybe taking a step backwards to get your foot in the door to type of industry excellent. That's the various thank you for that because it's also people might urge by going to the other extreme end and of course that that that that's not ideal so we talked about what we just touched upon the the idea of a ticking taking advantage of maybe career services that existed university but I wonder whether you in your in your path that brought you where you are today. Whether you had the the privilege of having mentors you know that were crucial at different points in in helping you move forward forward in in your B. It's in your in your in your graduate studies or even after in your career okay definitely so in my graduate career my thesis adviser all across on my committee at Princeton or just amazing at who that fine balance of giving advice without hand holding tank so they they also gave me swam to fail you know to go go down dead ends and figure my way out on my own without panicking so there was that sense that yeah we we'll let you be independent. and we'll you know give pointers here and there but if if you fail it's not the end of the world and that's something which I really appreciate it and it was a big advantage of doing by degree in that department it said it was a special place place or from entering they also do things quite differently there to most other departments arguments where you know in most departments you will come in to work in somebody's lab they might even get your research question right and then when they publish when you when he published your research your adviser is automatically going to be an also add on everything but it was different instant yet to come up with your own question. You really couldn't work on the exact same thing as a supervisor and it's just you as an also on articles so that that was handy after my studies I can honestly say I had any mentors but then again I didn't really feel I needed one. I was thirty four years old and I graduated because it's been so long in university and by the time I was in my a second medical rights or jaw that managing editor position by then. I was thinking I saw yeah. That's interesting because what I was going to say. Nix Search like maybe putting you a little bit on the spot with not really I've interviewed Rob Hutchison who you know very well and he he mentioned you as one of his mentors so I'd like to maybe again. Turn turn my questions around given the you know that I have you on the Mike and and may be think of of because now now you're you're working you know you have you have stratton him. He working in in a in a team there but in a previous positions you've had the chance again to help people that were coming from academia did grow into their their new medical writing or medical editing in career and so have this kind of mentorship position towards different people in an rob mentioned mentioned specifically how you really helped him learning the the middle of of of medical editor and and so what I was going to ask you and I don't know if you've ever thought of it this way would be the question would be as a mentor. How did you help people mature into into an domain or you know an area of activity that they were not proficient before I think it would boil down to devising a plan so if there was a if there's somebody who has scope to improve proven given area right making a plan means clearly defining what it is that is optimal right now and then describing what it would look like if it were optimal and then what what would you have to do to get from where you are now to that preferred position and it could involve a specific meetings things in areas that the person is not strong in it could mean introducing different process for doing an aspect the job it could be really simple as turning off. They spoke picturing the day though if anything it'll be different for different people and I think if people can do this for themselves rather than waiting to to be mentored by someone else then they're really a step ahead. you know a lot of what I would say. A mentor does is teach or lead by example apple's so you know you're not necessarily directing somebody and telling them do this do that but just in your own way that you're in the world in in your job you're setting a good example. I think you know what I always tried to impart. because it's something I I believed him for myself is being unafraid eight to try something and just knowing it's not gonna be the end of the world if you fail. It's just a just like a an opportunity really to to dust this yourself off. Try again in a different way and I think that that attitude of owning your own mistakes is very powerful awful. I couldn't have taken the plunge into Phelan's consulting where you know. I have no no salary that is every week I know I I get my paycheck right or two weeks. It's it's all entirely dependent on me going out getting projects and doing them in the book always stops at your desk but knowing just having that knowledge that okay things might make a mistake but own it and correct. I still think that especially in this in this context of transitioning to an industry that that you may know little about of the about the nitty gritty someone that's already inside that can show you the ropes still concealed play a very important role in in you know launching you into your new career. Yes not a hand holding you know forever and ever ever but that initial push yeah and that initial you know example like that person has probably gone through that same path right so if they can share what it was like them their first you know I nee first week first month. That's really helpful one we did when I I was managing editor as he had a unborn guide for new hires to have written down for them those those key things that they really need to be grabbing during that first day Chris and I yeah but a mentor would be you know very handy in that in that situation as well and it is it is it it just be another employees. Just there bit longer than you. somebody to shadow yeah for example. Yep but I don't want people to think that it's without an a mentor. They are going to fail so that's that's not been my experience for myself no again especially especially you know people who who have these skills of problem solving and of self studying and that you know that that we're talking about which often will so you know they'll be able to learn a new skill in a couple of days because they need to and they just again and then they come out of that intense study knowing knowing most of what they need so oh exactly yeah well. We've we've reached my last question which is kind of a a role play at question a little bit the way I set it up. you know to kind of close the interview with some advice to the listeners and the idea is the to imagine that the you know you're in front of an audience of young finalists or young graduates just like you were when when you when you finish it's an or when you were finishing and you know they're struggling. They may have fears worries doubts about finding their place in the job market's about stressing tracing the journey towards fulfilling and productive life and these people that are in front of you. I'd like you to to tell what two or three he basic strategies or principles they could follow starting today to put in place a realistic and attainable transition plan you know due to this plan that she talked about you know when the person comes with the plan how what were the first steps in the basic principles that they can start applying today to start in writing their plan. I would say that the principles are are kind of all mindsets. the first one I would say is something I've mentioned before this idea about paying your jeans a bit like when I started in medical writing that's how it felt for me and I really like it but you just have to realize is you can't walk straight out of Grad School or from one industry in my case since I was already out teaching while became walk walk straight out into a CEO position at a company in a different industry you need time in the field to build your new network and that's what you're going to be doing from the moment that you take a new job even if it's a very humble you're building a new network so oh I would. I'd encourage anyone considering that means a industry to take advantage of job openings that even if the position seems a bit humble you can see that it has a potential for career advancement down the road so either directly in that same company see you're applying or else if you see that it could be a stepping stone to something bigger and brighter elsewhere and I just had the mindset that there is absolutely absolutely no such thing as useless experience. you know one job. I took when I was an Undergrad was telephone fundraising Vancouver symphony and I did a two week training there and telephone marketing at you know I still use things I learned then at that little job to this day so road. I really believe there's absolutely no such thing as useless experience so go ahead paired. US tried something but if side of that it's the we could call principle apple number two is that honestly this is the only life you're gonna get seems to be true. So if you don't end up living the life you dream of that's that's kind of a tragedy so don't let yourself stagnates in a new role that it's clearly not working for you. you know always keep your eyes on where you want to end up and. Eh Do what you need and tried to get there an actually tried to get there fairly quickly yeah because you can you can get in through a lore your position but then if you prove your capacities you know management can Palu up to three rungs in the in the letter you know in in one time because Oh no this person definitely could be editor right away in exactly yeah and you know if you you can tell that you ready for it and they're not doing that. There's no law saying you have to stay at that same company this yeah. I know I know so many people all I think it's probably more than half the people out there whose lives lily have lived up to their expectations and that's usually because they've convinced themselves at some point that they are stuck where they are but it's entirely in their own heads so I would say like the the key. Mindset is just to keep reminding yourself that if what you're doing say that new job outside academia started if it doesn't live up to your expectations that doesn't mean that you made the wrong ones and that you'd somehow failed so you really should have just stayed in academia. No that's not what that means. You can always leave that that you John can find another job either in the same field or perhaps discovered. That feel just isn't for you so if do something brand again. You're really never stuck in. That's that's you convince yourself. You're stuck and so what what I would really recommend is that everybody is their own pep squad who mm so when things aren't working out. Just keep telling yourself that things will turn around you one way or another because think about it in your realized. Haven't they always they always do work out and and I'd say that perhaps the the most important life lesson I learned in Grad school wasn't trump. One of my mentors it wasn't from a prophet was from another masters and I was this you know at University of British Columbia when I was in my master's there one day I was whining about something. It was so small all that now I don't even remember what it was about at all but I was saying I felt like Ed screwed up my life at he said to me. You know you really really have to actively. Try very hard to really scrupulous. Is You have to get yourself addicted to hard drugs or commit some serious crime. You cannot not accidentally screw up your life so stop worrying so much so and I reminded myself that over the years when things were going smoothly you know it. It helps them the self confidence department too so I would. I would advise that that people keep telling themselves things are going to workout and and not be afraid to try and and now so stay limber be able to reorient at any time if something's not working for you you reorient because you do not stuck anywhere Yep. That's what I'm hearing and and believe leaving yourself in work towards your objective absolutely awesome this this has been a great interview reaching the now It's it's been a a great pleasure having you a the microphone. I think I think we've we've touched many points that are very interesting and very important for all the listeners. There's an anyone that's now thinking of transitioning even transitioning between jobs it can be stressful also yes yeah and so thank you very much. I just ask askew maybe now to to remind the listeners of maybe the websites the strengthening website and if you have a twitter handle that you wanNA share. I guess this would be the moment. Yes thanks. David M first of all. I really appreciate the chance to chat with you about these topics because it's always interesting to review review where you've been you know which I've actually done in the process of the interview and anyone who is interested listed in the area of Medical Communications can look at our website which is Stratton in Dot Com S. T. R. A. Eighteen. ESPN YM and our twitter handle is just at at them and that'll give you a description of the kinds of things that we work on the biographies of some of our consultants so you can see the diversity of backgrounds people have and I guess they can contact you on the website yes of course excellent all right mark again. This was great. Thank you so much and let's talk soon. Thanks David David and thanks to everyone who's listening out there. Take care cheers. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Papa. PhD PODCAST head over to pop each dot com for show notes in for more food for thought about non-academic boss Grad careers. I'll always be happy veto share inspiring stories new ideas in useful resources here on the podcast so make sure you subscribe on Itunes or wherever you get your podcasts to always keep up with the discussion and into Hugh from our latest guests.