Aired 21 hrs ago 0:41
KNX Programming | KNX 1070 NEWSRADIO
4-year-old in Riverside, California dies from flu
From the news
Aired 5 d ago 2:50
AP One Minute Headlines Jan 15 2019 12:00 (EST)
Are you a podcast or interested to know how you can make money from your show? It's easier than you might think with dynamo. You can monetize your show while staying in complete control. And the best part of all is that you don't even need to change your host platform. Visit vox nest dot com slash dynamo. For more information. That's the O X N E S, T dot com slash D. Y N A M O vox, nest dot com slash dynamo. And turn your passion into profit. Komo Brexit may not be certain. But one thing is clear. Your business could face serious challenges. Enterprise. Orlands wide range of supports will help you plan innovate compete on diversify speak to your enterprise Arlen development adviser or visit prepare for Brexit Dodi an initiative of the government of Ireland presidential meeting. I'm Ed Donahue with an AP news minute. President Trump is meeting at the White House with rank and file Democrats in hopes of ending. The partial government shutdown communications director Mercedes slaps says house speaker Nancy Pelosi is an invited. Obviously what we're seeing right now is that speaker Pelosi has refused to provide a counter offer. And I think that there's you know, we've seen several of these Democrats on the record saying that they know the physical barriers worked at fencing work work day. Also have talked about the need of wanting to compromise. President Trump said many times the Russia investigation is a witch hunt. The president's attorney general nominee William bar was asked the question today at his Senate confirmation hearing. Do you believe Mr. Muller would be involved in a witch hunt against anybody? I don't I don't believe. Mr. Muller would would be involved in a witch hunt in Riverside County, east of Los Angeles. Mandatory evacuations have been ordered for a dozen areas around the holy fire because of the threat of mudslides. Heavy rain in the area. I'm Ed Donahue.
AP Radio News
Aired 2 months ago 33:18
4: Blythe Part 2
Don't Tobin nineteen eighty six fifteen year old Kerry Brown disappeared from a house party body was found two days later in a wooded area outside of town. A suspect was arrested and charged. But the case never made it trial in season. Five of someone knows something host David Rijn travels to northern mining town to unravel the mystery of who murdered carry Brown together with Carey's older brother, David tracks down witnesses and suspects and uncovers shocking new evidence, you can listen to someone know something on apple or Google podcasts or wherever you get your shows. You may recall an episode to the unhealthy rezendes told me that Darryl Kulla hack. Oh had picked him up from day labor spot in Houston. The he called magnolias harassment beat me up in Mongolia star guy if there was to go to work by whereas McNally's, will I couldn't find any mention of it in my reserved. But one of our listeners Angie got in touch last week and told us that what resent is was actually referring to was probably magnolia. She said it's an area on the southeast side of Houston where Labour's picked up to work. Well, we looked into a little more Angie helped out and we found out that poverty area that includes magnolia park. Which by the late nineteen twenties had become the largest Mexican settlement in the city today is also known as second ward all of this helps establish the rezendes was telling the truth at least about the geography of the area. Did he kill Darrow coleco? We don't know for sure, but we do know. That the daily spot from where he claims kala hacker picked him up really exists. This is also why we'd love it. If you join the Facebook group and get involved in the conversation because who knows you may help us move the story on this is the case, you'll be hearing a lot more about in future episodes. But for now, I'm still in the desert. Deadman talking is brought to you by Robin Hood, Robin Hood is an investing app that lets you buy and sell stocks exchange traded funds and cryptos all commission free the app includes easy to understand charts market data, and you can place a trade with just full taps of your smartphone. So it's a non intimidating way for stock market newcomers to invest for the first time, and you can learn how to invest as you build your portfolio, and what's more other brokerages charge up to ten dollars for every trade, but Robin Hood doesn't charge commission fees. So you can trade stocks and keep all of your prophets, Robin Hood is giving listeners a free stock like apple Ford or sprint to help. Build your portfolio. Sign up at dead, man dot Robin, Hood dot com. That's deadman dot robinhood dot com. One place is in the border between you so nyc -fornia Cleo four and the border three or four between California member to get it. The river device. Blythe the farming city known for its rest stops on the road to California his close to collapsing too far from the I ten offramp and the fast food restaurants, you'll see closed businesses for Lee signs. It would be easy for body to go undiscovered for twenty thirty years. I mean, it happens all the time. And so it it's concerning to me that we have families out there that the don't have any closure because we haven't found these bodies that are possibly there. From the empty media. An audio boom. This is dead, man. Talking podcast with me, Alex. I'm still implied California the place where I believe on. How rezendes was talking about when he confessed to those extra murders. And I'm trying to get the bottom of what he told me on the type all those years ago. Chief white blood police department made me feel come definitely on the right path with these comments on the location, the transient camps and the ease with which buddies could remain hidden for years. There's a lot less to work with here compared to what resent is told me about the murder of dower hacker. But it's still important to follow this lead to find out. Whether he's confessions to me, what accurate that will more people to talk to in this vast desert area. And it was about to get not back and has the small town. Previously had other serial killers operating in its midst. Fences follow. Community. Likewise, just down the road from Blyth, PlayStation and chief wait is the Riverside County sheriff's office that jurisdiction is more than five thousand square miles and incorporates a California section of the Colorado river. So it was important. I told to them to a met sheriff, David teats and sergeant Thomas via die that Blyth substation on a plate in the resent is type. He's a very strong Hispanic accents is a bit difficult to understand him. We wouldn't be able to speculate. I mean that would be it would be impossible for us to speculate. If any of those would be even related. I don't know it, you know, you listen to a recording. I couldn't speculate on that Thomas, you it just so vague in this area, so large our desert is vast and as detective I investigated, many found bodies in the desert in most of them were Magritte's trying to make it to I ten in those investigations were all consistent to somebody coming north through the desert in trying to make die ten extremely oracle temperatures for someone who's not prepared in. Usually these folks were not I was trying to really nitpick statements. It could very will be possible anything's possible in the train once ran through the city of Blythe it ran through Ripley. But then at the same token, the transients that were there when that community was thriving a little bit more than it is today. Everybody knew who was who. And I certainly don't. Remember that name, and and it was reported to PD in I've been here. Twenty nine years born and raised here in the blight area. We'll have to my chat with chief way. This is a disappointing. But he's not entirely unexpected. I guess it's vague. And that's what they're saying. It is vague. There's no way they can say the resent is definitely killed four people on that. Patch? But these had dumped bodies in the river here like could've ended up far far away from Riverside County. It's entirely possible that he killed three or four people in Riverside County. But the bodies washed up in the pas or wherever else down the Colorado river, if you put them in the river, which is what he was intimating in our line of work. We've learned it anything's possible. Right, right. I mean, you told me I don't know the geography if resent had committed a murder dump the body in the river our river from here go south, and it dumps into Mexico in what I can say is that in the last I'll go back twenty years. We haven't had a body pop up in our river that. Would be any different than someone who we knew had gone down. And we were searching for and or eventually popped up in the imperial valley, which is south of us. We haven't had a case like that where a body that we weren't looking for in popped up. All of a sudden, a try the lost and found database on them to see if the cases ring any bells, we shouldn't speculate on those. I think we should you should contact the coroner's office on there because they will have the most accurate information. We'd just be guessing. But it was keen to get views on the bags of chopped up human remains discovered on the database that looked George this one hand, the nineteen ninety-five female three plastic bags containing two likes two feet. It's act Hans missing. It sounds just unbelievably violent and terrible. No. Without was. I was body parts that were coming from a lab, or what have you, and I don't know why they had done it with did. But it was a bag at fallen out. And so it wasn't. It wasn't some light. No. It wasn't someone who have committed a crime agai and dropped got something that they were trying to get rid of. It was actually something that was there was a legitimate explanation was legitimate reason. The one of the unidentified dead cool there. I this was the decomposed body of a woman who was found in nineteen Ninety-two on the side of a road in the desert neighb- live. She had blond hair, and she was never identified. She was only known as Jane, Doug. I remember he was the I was brand new patrol and he called himself face killer, and he had sent letters and he was confessing. And I think that's how the case was reopened in our area. Okay. Hold on for just a minute. We're going to take a very brief departure from resent his in two thousand nine a man could Keith Jesperson confessed to her murder. He was known as the happy face killer off the drawing happy faces on letters to prosecute his boasting his crimes, I know. He was facing execution someplace else Jespersen was already serving life in Oregon for another murder confessed to other killings in Washington, Wyoming and northern California. Then. He was extradited to Riverside County to face charges here to Jespersen said the woman at KOTA self Claudia. But all these years later the goal still remains on identified. I mean, it's just incredible. If you go to Blyth, you can see how small town it really is. I mean without being rude. There's nothing really happens. There is just kind of an intersection on highway ten that stretches east west across the entire country. And the fact that they would potentially two serial killers operating in this one town is amazing jap-, right? You sure I'm taking time to let's come to choose absolute pleasure. So no real insight there into resent his claims onto my next lead. We've just driven an hour north east of Blyth crossed over the Colorado river to Pokka Arizona, which is the laparoscopic he seat. In the sheriff's office a met Lieutenant Richard EPs. He didn't wanna toll to me at first at quotas bus up to see if it deal with us. But to be honest, I had just turned up. So I couldn't blame him. Once again, I played the rezendes type to one place. Lieutenant EPs began by telling me that they deal with a lot of dead buddies up here, it's not unusual to find human remains out in the desert here, and that's because of the migrants coming. But I mean, it's even more than that we have homeless, and they end up here for some reason, they'll be out in the desert camping in a shanty or something that they make and they pass away out there. It's not unusual. What was interesting was just to kind of get your take on on the sort of positioning the geography of what he's saying? But also mind standing is if he'd have killed people that and put the buddies in the river, they could easily have popped up in various places like riverside. You'll county wherever down the river the river speed down there slower than it wasn't an in the eighties. Yep. So the river was foster than it is now. So if resent his dumped his victims, they could've ended up a long way away, maybe the dice will help. Us. So the speed of that river would carry a body of state on snagged you could go to Bola. Okay. That's great. You said that because the first we looked at the Namus database and the first unidentified human remains. We found was this. Refuge. Yeah. So this was the descendant discovered floating in the river, Colorado river, five miles south of Sabella. And this would have been a year before he was arrested. So he was definitely been lodge. Yeah. This point. This is interesting because if a buddy been dumped in the revenue live, it could conceivably have floated down until it got lodged in weeds as the river, snakes through the refuge that miles away. I'd have to write down the name. And I'll go search it. And see if we have a record of it. Great. Thank you, see what I can find. If you want to read it to your microphone in network, you'll have it. It's it's quite long. It says the autopsy report lists the cause of death is undetermined and states that are no findings of injury trauma associated with death. What I need to know. Now is is it possible to be hit on the head by a blunt object? And then when the body's discovered, however, long lighter, there are no signs of any traumatic injury to what would you do if you awesome? Do you think that there's enough to go? And I think it's going to be kind of difficult for you. Because this part of the state in this part of California state is such a transient area, you're gonna come upon all kinds of bodies that were found you're going to have all kinds of missing reports from back in the day. You know without him here to say, Yep. That's the one. I did it's going to be kind of tough. Feel like I'm back to looking for a needle in a haystack again. And it's quite demoralizing. Today's cost is sponsored by helix helps you fall asleep noise machines essential some device attached to you knows. What if the reason, you know sleeping is that? You'll mattress is terrible. Because it wasn't designed for you. We're all different. So why would you buy generic mattress built for everyone else? Helixsleep built asleep quakes that takes two minutes to complete and they use the onces to match your buddy type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress. Just go to helixsleep dot com slash D, M, take two minutes. Leap and they'll match you to a mattress that will give you the best sleep. If you life the couples, they can even split the mattress down the middle. So each side is designed for the individual small. There's a ten year warranty and you'll get to try it out for one hundred nights risk free. Get up so one hundred twenty five dollars off helixsleep dot com slash d m. That's helixsleep dot com slash DM for one hundred twenty five dollars off your mattress ODA now back to the show. How did you kill them? I think I hit him in the head with a. Three three. But it just different media small piece of wood. In a Brooke Burke. Rail. I would buy from everything I've learned so far as well. As the feeling I got when I was talking to resent, his I have a hunch and was telling me the truth. But to be honest to the moment is no more than that. I was thinking. So of course, I'd be wrong. Not to have doubts doubts a mind about resentatives confession. Confessional live. But as a couple of things here. First of all, I'm constantly reminded about how accurate he was with the description of the place that he said these killings took place. And also, I'm constantly thinking of the other confessions to the murder of Darrell Kulla hat if that is any chance that he was telling the truth there. There are certainly some good evidence to suggest that he might have been. I think about that. As I look at the confession to the murders in blind as well. And that of course, colors the way I think about it. I had nothing. Because. Jesus was not. He wrote in the grounding wish the men. Anthropolgy Kathy ohi, Cathy, I wondered if to Stephens around argues so transferred her office, Frankie. Hello. This is Danni. Ohi? Delta statement, this is Alex Hannifin. So the next thing I needed to do was talk to an expert and find out whether it's possible to be hit on the head by a blunt object and you'll buddy down the line, whether it'd be three months, six months or more not show any signs of blunt force trauma, and the person recommended to me was a woman who to Doni stead Mun who's actually the director of forensic anthropology at the university of Tennessee Knoxville. My simple question for anthropologists as could you? Find skeletal remains that didn't show any signs of blunt for Stromer. But yet that person could have been killed by blunt forcetruth. In other words, if somebody was killed with a, you know, a by being bludgeoned by ruck, would it always manifest itself in skull damage? Can it conceivably not it's always conceivable to not, but it would be difficult to conceive? You can get blunt force trauma in the dominant area and not leave any skeletal traces because that's kind of just an open area. Whether it's gotten isn't it and with the skull you can get closed brain injuries that can lead to death. In other words, that the skull isn't fractured. In other words, they could have a brain injury that wouldn't necessarily show any outward signs on the skull of skull fractured skull damage. Right. Interesting. So and it depends presumably on the how hard they were hit. If they were hit, very hard. It would probably result in skull damage, but if they want then it could goes brain damage. Yeah. But it also depends on the nature of the skull. How they were hit the angle, you know, all sorts of things that we can't predict is it conceivable that three full buddies could be found, and they just have no idea how they died when he's sort of hull modus operandi was to bludgeon someone to death and that sort of while into the get in touch with UCF. If he's likely unlikely I would find it hard to fathom getting killed by a rocket at not leaving a Mark. Okay. Could happen. We see weird things. But I think that could be hit hard enough to kill somebody would probably leave at least a depression factor. If not, you know, multiple linear, fractures, what does the depression fracture? Loot lock. If you're looking at it depression factor can just look almost like if you put your thumb and indentured the bone. It may not have any factors that are eight from it. It can just look like almost just an indentation. We can see that like, especially in in native, ancient native American things, you know, where they were being helped hit by a Celt or something like that. Which is a rock. We don't know from an archaeological standpoint if that's what killed usually they're healed. So it doesn't look like it killed him. It looks like they survived it. Obviously, the more devastating types of fraud. Xers are when you have the concentric and radiating fractures. And so those are the ones that travel across a Abon or a skull in this case, some people may die with cranial, fractures, and some people may survive them and some of them can look fairly devastating and the person lives, others of them. Look, very minor. And the person dies. So you can't really tell from the the look of a fracture. If it's fatal or different. We'll look reshaped. It. Thanks so much. You're welcome. Good luck. But I. So that's interesting, even though it was always conceivable that you could kill someone, but bludgeoning them and not leave any trace in their skeleton. She said, it'd be highly unlikely that there would be three full victims all been killed in the same way. And find a human remains that didn't show any sign of skull fracture. If that's how rezendes killed them, which we is. That said we still don't have any potential victims. For our coroner or public administrator matters press one if you are call. All. Someone next pool of coal was to find out whether the had been any bodies or human remains found had suffered blunt force trauma in the area. The morning corner spirit. So I phoned the Riverside County coroner's office and got through to Tony Townsend who's the Karna Sajjan with Riverside County sheriff's department. Could you find a skeletal remains and not know how that person was killed? But you know, the the modus operandi for this guy was to bludgeon his victims to death. So you know, seeming he did the same. There would shown up on the skeletal remains would you have had signs of blunt force trauma? Sure sure, I mean, upwards up seventy percent of our county is desert. So that being said, we do find a significant amount of skeletal. Unidentified remains the majority of our undetermined cases, which of you know, about thirteen thousand deaths we investigate a year here in Riverside County. We probably end up with anywhere, you know, in in the neighborhood of fifty to one hundred undetermined cases, every year we could rule out the desert. I mean, he was very specific about the location that you get there. So he he said it was it was literally on the banks of the river. So the. Buddies would have been thrown in the riven out coast that doesn't mean they would have been found in the blithe vicinity. They could've float I'm pretty familiar with the blight area. And a lot of the remains. They kind of weave in and out of California, Arizona, as you know area. And yeah, very high likelihood they could've ended up on the Zona side or undiscovered even today, they could have gone further. So who knows that type of search for us is exceptionally difficult are strong database. You know, in terms of really immediately searchable stuff doesn't start till two thousand twelve everything else beyond that is virtually hands. Search at this point we have logs and stuff that make it somewhat easier. Probably given the scope of what you're looking for like if you had asked me if in two thousand twelve wizard triple home assigned by I mean, I'd have that information for you right now on the phone to cost the net that wide in ten year possibly eleven year span and just say if they were buddies the exhibited signs of blunt force trauma that were found alongside the Colorado river in riverside. County between in that ten year timeframe ending onto ninety almost impossible in terms of. Yeah. That we just didn't categorize data like that. Until like, I said like two thousand twelve Kuc's unidentified human remains. So what about the people who were identified, but they have no idea who killed sure that's a trick to is at the coroner's office. We don't often know too much unless we go to trial with the criminal investigation, which we do frequently. But we don't know case closure. We won't know if they're judicata or not or arrest was made in connection or anything like that. Thanks, tony. Appreciate problem, sir. So that's pretty frustrating. Actually, it basically means that if present is did commit these mud's he oversee did them before he was arrested in nineteen ninety nine. And that was way before the current is office started making the data such -able by keyword, which means on basically, no closer to finding out. If that were any victims toll. A quick would about one of our sponsors. 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Now, the only way to get that twenty dollars off and free shipping is to use promo code M. T Brooklyn in dot com. That's B. Okay. L I N dot com. Now back to deadman talking. So a may have reached some dead ends here. But my conversation with chief white in the last episode has made me think my hunch. The resent is was telling me the truth must not be completely naive. He may well have killed here in the sleepy desert community. And if he did then does that make it more likely that he also killed Darrow Kulla hack back in Houston, Texas? So you'll recall earlier, I've found the blithe could have been visited by the happy face killer, and it was extrordinary potentially two serial killers operating in the same area. But carried on my research, I discovered that they could have been another. This is absolutely incredible. Blown my mind. I've just been going through the Riverside County coroner's office website. I was going through the kind of date range from the eighties nineties that resent his would have been lodge and found this case back in nineteen eighty three which I would have thought would have been on the early end of win resent his was doing his thing. But certainly a possibility he was definitely we know he was in the states at this point. But what blew me away was this. So this is an unidentified set of human remains, and it was found in the open desert area north of the itin freeway in Blythe, California. It's believed the woman was between eighteen and twenty five years of age should died between eight months and two years prior to being found due to the condition of the body. No scars tattoos. Disfigurements observed and no clothing was located with her no, jewelry or identification was found. This bit is incredible. Under the section that says. Circumstances. It says these skeletal remains were found above ground in the desert and reflected extreme exposure to the elements at one time, Henry Lee, Lucas took credit for the death of a young woman in the vicinity and time that this woman's remains were found. A one point Henry Lucas was thought to be the most prolific serial killer in US history, he confessed to over three thousand murders. But what investigators discovered was that most of those were false confessions? I was amazed that there was another serial killer the happy face killer who operated in the Bligh the area and with what resent is told me is correct. And he would he'd committed three or four murders in the blood area too. Well, I've been looking at the Henry Lucas case because it was interesting that he falsely confessed to a number of murders hundreds of murders. That would no way could have been him. So this two things number one. I wasn't expecting Henry Lucas his name to come up attached to Blyth a toll. But the other thing that's kind of interesting is that now experts think that Henry Lucas, probably only killed a few people Lovie others, which is confessions full confessions. And if. The case who killed this woman whose body was found near the I ten freeway in Blythe, California. From DMC media an audio boom. This is the dead man talking podcast. So it's timely that Henry Lucas has come up because in the next puck cost shoot. I believe a word rezendes says because let's face it who would trust the serial killer. Deadman talking is presented by may Alex Hannaford, the producer and sound engineer is pizza sale. Kanatani is our search and production assistant. And as always we'd like to. Thank goodnight. Texas fantastic band for fantastic theme song. You should definitely check them out high. We are goodnight Texas. How are you dot com? We post court documents, pictures and other developments the story on Facebook messages on that too. So that address again is Facebook dot com slash groups food slash dead. Man talking. Don't forget to tweet us at deadman podcast, and you can Email us deadman's will cost at outlook dot com. So if you're in the Boston area on November, the third me and Kelly Horan of the last seen putt cost will be in compensation with Joseph Lixin of Len fest cheaper journalism, the sound education conference at Harvard University all be chatting about how. Mental king all came about. And some behind the scenes stuff about how we make the show. And by the way, if you haven't already you should check out Kelly's podcast last seen. It's about the largest off heist in history. And it's fantastic. You can get tickets to the event that sound education dot F M to see that. It's hard to be healthy when you don't get breakfast. It's hard to recover from open heart surgery without heat. It's hard to get. 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Dead Man Talking
Aired 3 months ago 51:01
149. Reclaim Creativity: Srini Rao of The Unmistakable Creative on "Creating for An Audience of One"
The. This is love your work on this show. We help you make it as a creative. Entrepreneur I'm David from love your work headquarters in Columbia. Yes. The country. I have interviewed titans of industry like Steve case have interviewed bestselling authors. Like, Seth Godin and James alter if interviewed experts on behavioral science craters from dancers to a chef to a Hollywood set designer and visionaries on the cutting edge of create a monetization, whether that is self publishing or blockchain technology, and from these conversations, I pull out lessons to share with you on how you can find your unique voice as a creative entrepreneur how you can nail the right mindset to succeed, and how you can be first to capitalize on new opportunities to making living making your art. If you are new here. Welcome again, I'm David Kennedy. If you wanna join us here in love you worked every Thursday, please his subscribe on your podcast app and get my free creative productivity tool kit. Sign up at Kennedy dot net slash tools in a world where you can publish your creative work to more people than ever is very easy. To lose sight of why we create in the first place and interestingly, if you're dead set on your work reaching a lot of people you're actually gonna lose touch with that special something that makes your work resonate with others. In the first place screening row. Our guest today is host of the unmistakable creative podcast and author of the new book audience of one reclaiming creativity for its own sake. And in audience of one Srini gives you the tools and encouragement, you need to stop focusing on external validation and reconnect with your creative spark in this conversation today, we're gonna talk about how do you follow up a success to reconnect with creativity for its own sake. We're going to hear about how Sweeney's self-published book hit the Wall Street Journal bestseller list, and we'll hear about how he has struggled after that event to reconnect with the true source of creative work that resonates with others. Also, how do you ask questions that get right to a great story? Srini asks great questions on his podcast, the unmistakable creative. In fact, I was on the recently, and he got stories out of me that I had never told before. So I loved digging into his questioning style. I think that his thoughts on this could be as useful for a first date as they are for a podcast interview. And what has Sweeney learned from hosting more than seven hundred podcast interviews, he'll break down the best tips and ways of thinking that he's gleaned from creators Bank, robbers drug dealers, performance psychologist and more. And I realize it's been a very long time since they ask for reviews of the show actually recently got a one star review. And the person said that I was the worst interviewer of all time. I don't know how that person knows that. I don't know how they have listened to all interviewers to have ever existed and determined that I'm the worst ever. But in any case, they still got useful feedback from that review. So if you. I agree with that person. You're probably not listening. But in any case, it would love to get your feedback on the show. What you love what you hate. And I would love that in a form of a review. So if you're already subscribed if you don't feel ready financially to support the show on patriotic. This is also another great way to help out at no cost just a review. So if you're on the app podcast app. Just go to love your work and scroll down and tap on Radha review, otherwise to caveat net slash review that will take you straight to apple podcast where you can write a review. And if you're not sure what to say you can just click on a star rating, you can leave it at that. It takes two seconds again that is dot net slash review. I'm glad every plate is sponsoring the show every plate is the healthier alternative to take out or delivery. And it's cheaper to every plate recipes come together in about thirty minutes, which is way faster than a trip to the grocery store. They do the meal planning the shopping the prepping of ingredients it takes all the time consuming and mental energy consuming guesswork out of cooking. And every plates chef design meals are just four ninety nine per serving. That's like a Cup of coffee for fifty percent off your first box of every plate. Go to every plate dot com and enter love your work. That's fifty percent off your first box of every plate at every plate dot com with promo code love, your work. And I am really thrilled to have SRI row on the show. Here is shrinking. Okay. I'm here with Sweeney row from the unmistakable, creative podcast and stringy. I'm not going to ask the same questions that you ask. When you start your interviews. But I really love your opening questions. You ask things like where did you grow up? What what what did your parents do? How did that affect your your path as a creator, and that really gets your conversations off to a really good start? And I'm curious where did you get the idea to start asking questions such as that? When did when did that when did that begin? You know, it's interesting. So one of the things that business partner who who have actually just parted ways with just the week. Go on amicable terms is still a good friend. We kind of reached a point where it was time for us to apartment he'd been listening very closely. And he said man, he's you get these just beautiful nuggets out of people. But he said it takes twenty minutes to get to that. And the Marijn deepest part of the conversation is twenty minutes in he said, I think you can get there faster. And I said how he said by changing the opening question. And so I decided to give it a try to see what would happen, and it was really interesting to see the first persons rash. Because they thought the it's so different than how you would start a conversation with somebody. You've never spoken to before. And usually the first question is first responses nobody's ever asked me that before which is always a good sign, but part of the reason for that. And what I started to realize after doing it hundreds of times was that you can't answer those questions without telling. Story and human beings are hardwired listened to stories and the unmistakable creative is very straight driven were not about tactics, or, you know, increase in the ROI of your business or whatever earth things like that. We are very much on the business telling really interesting stories, and as a result, you get these really fascinating thought provoking an insightful nuggets out of people and immediately. What happens is that? They're guard comes down because they've shared something very vulnerable. They've heard something that's personal. They've shared something. That's deep. And as a result, you end up having a very very intimate conversation in which you're able to get them to talk about things that they've never talked about before. And I said this to one of the people at creative lives that of you can get your guest to feel something then you are going to inevitably invoke an emotional response in the people who are listening so really more than anything driven by the desire to tell compelling stories. And the thing is that human beings are hardwired. To listen to stories. And as you said, you do the moment you ask that question. You can't stop listening because now somebody is telling the story, and you're like okay now, I need to figure out where this is going to end. Yeah. It's funny. I I have always felt like, oh, I would feel so strange asking such a personal and pointed question right off from the beginning. But it seems to work very well. I mean, I I know I certainly try to avoid, you know, tell me about yourself, and I also try to avoid the just simple. Welcome back and forth thing that happens during the beginning of of of a lot of conversations. So I yeah, I might try this sometime. Well, you know, what it is that what ends up happening for many people is that you affectively a, you know, tell me about yourself as a terrible question. I mean, you would never ask at first date that either. Right. It would just terrible date. It has if you went there. But what's what's interesting about that? These types of questions is that they're not resume questions. Whereas if you listen to the opening of most interviews, particularly when people are interview entrepreneurs, it's almost like they're just doing a job interview saying tell me about your career, and my business, my, you know, from business. The ryen so that you you're gonna get to their work eventually, but you don't want the first five minutes of the interview to feel like a pitch for who they are in the work because it's almost like having them read their resume just kind of Morphing into some story form for a podcast. And I just don't think that that's very entertaining. Well, I'm not going to ask you what group you're in high school because people can find that out yet by listening to the unmistakable, creative a recent interview of you. So I'll just go ahead and ask you one of your your own can questions. What did your parents do? And how did that affect your career as a creator? So my dad is a college. Professor, we basically we started in Australia in nineteen seventy eight where he was doing a PHD that my mom, and I came three months after he got there, then we left then we moved to Canada where he also did post Arca work, and then we spent seven years in Texas. And then finally he got a job as a professor at the university of California riverside. My mom has been a health worker for the various county. She's worked at a medical clinic. She's worked in dental offices. And now she works as a health worker for Riverside County, teaching breastfeeding as far as crews impacting me, I think that more than anything, my parents informed. What I knew I didn't wanna do assault my dad's career, and I just when I saw academe eah. I saw how long it took for him to get to a point of stability. I saw that. There would always be a cap, although he lives a really good life. Now. I I you know, I honestly at moments. Thank that. Okay. Maybe there is some some lady. But I think the the thing that came from having parents who had careers like this, particularly my dad is that I understood the things we're gonna take a long time, and I was taught to persist things for a really long time. Because I saw it firsthand. I saw my dad spent years up until he got a teaching position when it finally did work out for him it worked out wonderfully and. I think the other thing is because of the fact that I'm Indian I also had this sort of discipline that I was brought up with you do nobody put our report cards on the fridge when we brought straight is home from school. It was kind of just well, yes. Of course, you traitors from school. If we didn't bring straight as from home from school. The question was why what did you do wrong? Why did you study? So in that sense. I think that that was my dad's influence it. Neither of them were creatives. But I just more and more. What I kept seeing. I think as I've gotten older and older and Dino became a surfer snowboarder. It was a very weird thing. But I felt in so many ways, and I said this audience of one that at moments felt like God made a sorting air by putting we may with my family because it's not that they're not creative, but we have really really different values. And I knew that I didn't wanna live the life that they live. And so in that sense. I think that in one way what my parents did informed the early part of my career because I just did what I thought would work. What was expected I chose. What was safe secured stable? And the weird thing is despite choosing what was safe secure and stable that didn't turn out to be the case for me in those situations because I got fired from all my jobs. I don't think there was this understanding of, you know, do something you're passionate about do something that you love. And I remember reading a piece on medium that you wrote about the fact that you wouldn't recommend living. This freelance Lyft. Anybody never forgot that piece. It really stuck with me. And and I think about it at moments and end sometimes I think, yeah. Maybe there is something some truth that as maybe this. This isn't something that a lot of people should do. But I think that they're sort of the fact that they're immigrants really more than anything else created this sort of work ethic and drive, and then this other sense that they struggled. They really went through a lot of our times to give as everything, and it would be responsible to piss away all the hard work that they did to give us golden opportunity. But at the same time, you also realize that wait a minute. Your parents aren't the ones who are going to live with the consequences of the choices that you make with your life. Your for just about every. Other Aspen life, so in that's as I would say, it's it's I think they're influences have been indirect but more than anything. I think they've been formed what I've chosen not to do more than what I have done. Right. And you know, but they also began their careers in such different absolute world. Yeah. You could you could you could do that. I I really resonate a lot with what you're saying. My my father worked for the same company for for thirty seven years. You know, very persistent in steadying, I think I learned a lot watching that. But it was it was not the career that that I wanted to have. But really today. How can you be guaranteed to have that kind of security anyway, and to to what you said about not recommending this this profession? Yeah. Something that I still feel it is something some people will ask me. Sometimes like, how do, you know, whether you should write a book, and I tell them, you know, because you have no choice. His Hathaway that you feel I think to some degree. Yes. I remember hearing this interview with Matt Damon and Sam Jones, and the fact that Matt Damon said that he had no no backup plan like that. There was no plan b that this was the plan, and I mean goodwill hunting, well, good will hunting, and and, you know, being an actor in general because I know this but prior to goodwill hunting, Matt Damon was very unknown, but he'd already been around for ten years, and the reason that he and Ben Affleck wrote good will hunting was that they needed to create a job for themselves. They actually said the reason we wrote that movie was because we needed work, and we figured okay. If nobody's going to hire as let's write our own movie star in it before that nobody really knew who they were. And but the idea that there was no plan b that there was no backup plan that was really interesting to me because the thing about having a backup plan when you go into a creative creer. It's almost like the backup plan could become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not because you you don't intend to and I'm not saying that you should do really stupid and risky things. I've seen a lot of people do things that don't make any sense like quit jobs with no idea how they're going to make any money, and then finding themselves completely broke two months later. I think that there has to be some thought to how you go about this. I think that the other part of it is you say you don't have a choice. So I'm the person who's got fired from every job. I ever had to me. A I felt like yeah. I don't have a choice. I have to figure out a make this work because I did it the other way and it didn't work for me. Although funny enough, I think now I would be a much more valuable asset to any organization given everything that I've done in learned from building on mistake will creative. I got this crazy education that I think is probably unparalleled in terms of knowledge of like an encyclopedia of information in my brain. But I do think that it has to be one of those things where you are. So deeply drawn and deeply compelled to do this thing that you just can't do it. Right. I mean, I know I've heard your story about moving back in with your parents. And I think age thirty or something to start unmistakable creative or the the precursors to it perhaps we can get into of sand at that point. You felt like you didn't have any other choice because you had gotten five from everything or or or was there a an element of. Well, I could go look for more jobs, but I feel compelled to do this. Well, it's combination of both. I did look for more jobs. Nobody hired the entire time. I was building unmistakable creative people were constantly. I was trying to apply for jobs, and the the problem was that we originally this point where resumes were becoming worthless. And the only thing I really had my resume was particularly worthless. Because I've been fired from only job. So there's no reason I wanted to put that out to a potential employer. So my portfolio work what I built it on mistake. Well, created the blog Ed built and all this stuff had become basically the equipment resume, and I remember going into a job interview. And some guy asked what is? This like it's a body of work at if I had no idea is a person who basically spent his whole life working at a company, and he said when asked about the corporate culture, he said, yeah, when we say eight o'clock, we don't mean eight fifteen and I thought okay. Here's a guy who's unpire world is dictated by follow rules mine. His I would not even I'd be miserable here. And I kind of wish that I had the balls to just be completely honest in that interview and say to the guy, you know, what Chuck I think I would fucking eight working with you to be honest. I think we can conclude the interview right here. Just based on that common alone. I can tell you that. I'm not a good fit for you guys. Good luck with your higher. And what's interesting is the VP for who is hiring for that physician. And the person they hired all got fired three months after that. So it wasn't for a lack of trying, but it was becoming very clear that okay, I've done it this way. And it's not going the way I needed to. So why am I trying to do something and force fit something that clearly isn't working? I think I'm going to just cut off the possibility of going down that road. And yeah, you like you mentioned I mean, there are a lot. Of sacrifices that I moved home. I lived at home until it was like thirty nine years old, which is ridiculous. I decided not to pay off my student loan debt. And in some ways that you know, what I've always said is I think I've done far greater done far more for society and for humanity by building unmistakable, creative. Then I would have by paying off my debt. So if I had paid off my debt, some investment banker would have gotten a really big bonus. But the thing is he's going to get that bonus. Whether I pay my debt or not even though he's responsible for causing billions of dollars in losses. But that's a whole other side. So I thought why am I stressing about paying my debt when a CEO who has, you know, operating losses taking a ninety million dollar bonus to hell with him. Yeah. So, you know, all that aside. I think that I realized that I felt like I really didn't have another choice. I didn't even know that student loans were something that you could that you could decide not to that. They were completely unforgivable for your their unforgivable that I'm paying like the bare minimum, our Gotcha. Okay. And even their unforgivable. There's there's no way that we're getting out of this situation by people actually paying these things off like it's just not gonna it's not economically possible for here's what I don't think. People realize, you know, you don't get me starting a rant on the education system. But it doesn't take an extra head and I'll mix degree or math degree to figure out that. Hey, by the way, there's only so long that you can keep lending money out and not getting it back before there are systemic consequences like any idiot could figure that out. I mean, we saw the housing bubble. So the fact that people think that we're going to get out of our student loan debt crisis by all these. Students suddenly paying off their debt. So think about what's happening because of student loan debt, the student at people take jobs that they're under qualified for. They don't start businesses. They don't buy houses. They don't contribute to the economy because all they knew is pay off their debt, I just interviewed a presidential candidate. And he said that he described his law school loans as a second mistress because he said he felt like he was sending a check to another family every month. And there's no way that. I don't know what world is gonna exist where every student who owes all this money is suddenly going to be able to pay it back unless they all win the lottery, or their parents all die at the same time, and they get the cash in on life insurance policies, and that's morbid to think you're the the precursor to unmistakable creative. I believe it was called blog cast FM. Yes before correct? Yes. So when you went through that branding rebranding to unassailable, creative was that a very difficult decision for you to make at that time. No, not really I wasn't particularly attached to the blog cast FM brand, particularly because it wasn't a brand was interesting as we had really good content. But we didn't have a very clear identity of who he warned what we stood for. It was, hey, this is the interview podcast bloggers, and the thing that was really becoming clear clear at the end of two thousand thirteen is that we weren't just a podcast for bloggers. We just happen to interview people who had blogs are most popular interviews were the ones where people actually pulled interesting stories not talked about how they started their blogs or increased traffic to their websites. Even though that's where we started. I think that more and more when you got to see that while these are some really fascinating people. That's what made the whole thing. So much more interesting. So it wasn't a hardly round. I mean, it took a lot of work. But in terms of letting go of the old brand it didn't take much convincing for me. I kind of sauve that it would be a whole different ballgame. If we got rid of it. We would be a relevant right now. We would have been out of business by how? Yeah. And I love that. You did that most important. I love that you started as blog cast FM because I think that. One thing that I see that holds a lot of people back in creative endeavors, and this is something that I've struggled with myself is not beginning because you don't feel like you've got the positioning. Right. You don't feel like you've got figured out. Exactly what you're going to create. Whereas sometimes you can just create something. And then what it's about starts to emerge is kind of what happened. Yeah. I I would say so I think clarity comes from taking action, particularly when you're unclear because if you do something at least you get some feedback as to what works. What doesn't what resonates? What doesn't I it's a really easy trap to fall into? And I it just turns into a form of sophisticated procrastination. But it's really only when you start putting stuff out. I writing books is a perfect example of this. I waited for years. And then Finally, I thought okay. Well, nobody's gonna come. In offer me a book deal to hell with this. I'm just gonna publish my own book. And it's funny 'cause myself published book was former successful than my traditionally polish books have been so yourself published book. I believe it was the art of being unmistakable, then ended up becoming a Wall Street Journal bestseller. So how did that happen? And what did that do? To your creative process having success. Like that did that make it difficult for you to reconnect. I mean, it seems like type of thing that might mess with your head a little bit. We'll I know for a fact that you just went through this because somebody else a mutual friend of ours. Told me on mistake creative about it. So I I don't remember who it was. But I'll have to go like so. Yeah, it definitely did mess with my ear bit. So so the way it came about was I sell published books in king nothing of it thinking you don't want. If we saw a couple hundred copies all really happy. And then I went, and I looked in the, you know, Amazon dashboard one day, and I saw that I had skyrocketed to to the top of the the M's. They had a thousand sales in one day. No, it was I looked at the rankings. And I saw that I was ranking higher than the founder of read it and James altitude and everybody else, and I thought wait a minute. These guys are far more well known than I am what just happened here. And then I tweeted about it and some guy replied back saying, hey, you might wanna think Glenn Beck. He raved about your your book on. I didn't even know. Glenn Beck was at the time. So I do Google Glenn Beck, and I thought okay, cool. So I just went to his generic form, not realizing that Glenn Beck was kind of a big deal and said, you know, submitted into his contact form saying, hey, I'm the guy who's book you friendly raved about I just wanted to say, thanks. It's long been a dream of two thousand copies of a self published book and. You know, I I remember my one of my friends that I don't think you realize, you know, how big a deal this golick the dashboard, and I saw that at all thousand copies in a day. And then next thing, I know I get an Email from Glenn producer and the falling Friday from Glenn and then the following Monday. I find myself in in Dallas on the Glenn Beck show to talk about this book, and it end up, you know, to the top of the charts. Amazon. I it was it was crazy. It was one of those sort of surreal moments where you think to yourself lingered in obscurity for five years, and suddenly, I'm a Wall Street Journal bestselling author and this book is salt thousands of copies. And so, you know, I think that the thing is that you in your head. You're you're you you always tell yourself. Okay. Whatever you do don't get attached. This don't forget to to remember that you would have been happy with three hundred copies or whatever. But that's that's easier said than done. I think that what happens is it creates this very bizarre sort of expectation. Ocean that oh I've done this before I've got a shot at doing this. And when your books don't live up to that. It's very difficult. I think that everybody faces particularly. I think that's the danger of having had an early success is that it creates this the sense of unmet expectation with everything that follows. So my second book, the actual unmistakable book didn't sell nearly as well the audience of one was just came out. The sales have been going kind of slow. But I think my agent told me she said, you know, this isn't just about one week. It's about the long haul like you want something that's going to sell consistently over time. You know, what Ryan holiday would call a perennial cellar. But it's hard not to think about it. It's it's been very stressful in a moment's depress me because we hired a pretty high marketing firm to help with the launch on this one. And it just it. It's been one of those things where it's like that whole as a little Gilmore thing. Right. You have this successful book. And then you think about okay, how am I going to follow this up? Like nothing is ever gonna live up to this is going to be impossible to do again. We're gonna take a quick break. Thank you to our sponsor today. Gusto payroll and benefits are hard, especially when you're. Business. You don't have time to be an expert on things like taxes in regulations and old school payroll providers just aren't built for the way you work today. Gusta was making payroll benefits and HR easy for small businesses. 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You know, you get checks from clients and other places that you make money earth class mail tech automatically will recognize checks with their check stream service earth class mail will endorse and deposit checks to your Bank account on your businesses behalf. You never have to touch it with earth class mail. You can transform your office into a paperless environment. Scan documents male other important items like invoices receipts there alternate. Fully searchable PDF's earth class mail has set up a special offer just for love your work listeners. So listen up if you wanna get eight percent off the monthly plan or ten percent off an annual contract, visit earth class mail dot com and use the promo code love your work when you sign up that's earth class, mail dot com with promo code glove, your work. I have to say, it's just I don't know a lot about Glenn Beck. All I know is that he's a very polarizing figure. And so it's it first of all it's very surprising in amusing to me that he latched onto your book. What was his angle on that? You know? I think is funny. He called it. The nonfiction atlas shrugged of this generation. I think he liked the fact that it was based on a sort of very independent mindset of focusing on being a creator. And really, I think a lot of ways it was a book about permission to go out and do something I mean to this thing of of a book being along hall. I mean, that's one of the things that I've found with you know, I have self published. My most recent main main book, you know, after lots of rejections and stuff, and you know, might my first couple of weeks or first couple of months things weren't weren't picking up big. And so I've just been playing the long game. One of these things that I've learned being doing self publishing is like oh gosh. Like, I talked to people who do Tricia publishing sometimes. And they're like, I'm not doing this again for ten years. He's really because it's so exhausting to go through that launch. Does it feel like that for you? It's been I haven't been in that position where I'm Tricia published with a with a big imprint such as as penguin. Do. Do you do you fantasize about going back to self publish all their pros and cons to each? I think one of the things that working with a publisher does is it really really levels. You up it forces you to really I mean, they push you to create a really high quality product. I I would be lying to you. If I said that might self-published book is as is as well written as my traditionally polish books far from it. Despite the fact that it sold more copies, I think that your health totally different. Because you have a level the count ability. It's that's why takes a long because I think they in the end they want to create something that they're proud of. They want something that ultimately will be a high quality product. It's a totally different beast in that sense. But then there are other things that drive you crazy things that take far longer than they should. So basically, you might finish a manuscript in nine months when you when you sell publisher kind of like, okay, let me get a cover designed let me run this through spellcheck, and let me find an editor to clean it up. And that's it all of Amazon all decrease based on your off to the races. Whereas when you do a traditionally published book, there's all this other stuff in between. So what normally would take three months ends up taking anywhere between nine to twelve. Right. And you have to put all these different things in place, which are things that I'm still learning myself about book marketing. Yeah. While the book is out, and it's much easier for me to motivate myself to learn those elements in yet, maybe in the next go round. Maybe I'll put more ducks in a row before my launch. But it it's been a wonderful learning experience that being able to have instant feedback loop, whereas with the drift traditionally published route seems like you really got a find that motivation somehow to do all this work toward this one day that is could be a year in the future yet, it really really isn't. And that's the balancing act, right? Is that while you're working on it? You can't be thinking about all that you can't be thinking about how your audience is going to respond. You can't be thinking about how many copies it's going to sell because that inevitably brings the quality of the work down. And at the same time. I think that that is probably one of the most difficult things about doing creative work force. You want your work to raise a lot of people and at the same time, you can't be attached to that happening. And it's interesting. You know, we're talking about you having this great. Eight breakout success with an early book. And and we're talking about this new book audience of one in which you're talking about reclaiming creativity for its own sake for connecting with your own satisfaction in doing your creative work is there any element of this book in which you are writing it to help internalize or instill certain philosophies or ways of doing things in yourself. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I think that's such a such a wise observation on your part. I it's funny because I think that every time I've I've talked to my sister a few days ago, and she asked about I said, well, it's not selling as many copies I want. She said, yeah. But isn't that the whole message of the book? And so, yeah, I think in a lot of ways somebody told me once we teach what we need to learn. And I think for me that that's largely been what this book has been. It's been incredibly challenging because. One. It was it was the end of a contract for two bucks. I really wanted to do better. Didn't do my my first book didn't do as well as hoped and so despite sort of talking about this idea of an audience of one I absolutely have really struggled with this. I have a piece on medium. I think idled how my addiction to achievement has almost destroyed me. And it really has. I mean, it's taken me to some pretty bad, and sort of dark places to to realize that wait a minute. I you know, I'm struggling with. This message mainly because I'm the one who probably needs it more than more than anybody. And you know, I don't you don't write a book because you wanted to linger in obscurity, and of course, you want people to to read it, of course, you want to to sell more because I think that the the thing that I always I've said this in the book is that when you're successful with your creative work. Basically what happens is you get the opportunity to keep doing that work. And that's the part that scares me is that it's not a successful as I would. Like it to be. And it makes me question. Whether I'm going to be able to keep doing it. It reminds me of a quote that I've heard Jeff goings share a number of times from Walt Disney we don't make movies to make money we make money. So we can move down. Done precisely. That's so true. Like that is alternately. Why you know, I like why we've sponsors in the podcast. So we can keep thinking podcasts. Yeah. And that's why you wanna sell more books. So you can you can keep making books and keep selling them. Absolutely. Yeah. So what are some of the things from audience of one that you have been able to instill in in yourself? And what are some of the things that maybe you discovered in the process of writing this book that you might not have discovered as you not taking the time and effort to focus on thinking about this. This one message of creating for creative for creating sake. Will I think that the biggest sort of takeaway, and probably the most tactical chapters the one that we did on the power of your environment? Right and your environment. Basically includes everything that you hear see smell taste or touch. That means the information that you consume the blogs read the podcast, you listen to your physical space. So the desk work at the chair, you sit in the lamps on your desks, the lighting all that. All those things have a huge impact not only on your on your mood. But they also have a big impact on your behavior. And. And what's interesting is by making all of those things deliberate choices you actually end up being able to alter behavior without having to consciously think about it. So I'll give you one example. And some of this might be familiar to you because you're a writer, but one of the things that I do before I go to sleep at night as clear everything off of my desk. And I put out a pen. I've put on a notebook. I put out my noise. Cancellation headphones in the book, I wanna read, and that's because the first thing that I do every morning is right and read, and that makes it much more likely that I'll do it because I've created an environment that's conducive to the behavior that I want, but you can apply that framework to virtually anything. And to me, I think that was one of the most revealing things about this book is that it took from took. What had started out as an item on it to do list and turn it into a lifelong creative practice something that I will probably never stopped doing? So you're thinking about different ways that you can sort of design your environment. To shape the behavior that you want to have as a creator because I think like you said this this is something that I do myself. I it I have a strange relationship with writing in that I enjoy it. But at the same time, I find it somewhat painful, and I want to do it. And I want to do it. So I do it first thing in the morning because that's the time when I'm most likely to to to get myself to do it. And that's that's just one way of designing your behavior to destroy the sorry, designing your environment to to shape your behavior in a certain way. Is there another way that you do that? Well, I think that there are numerous other ways. I mean, I I also tend not to have a lot of clutter filled by my physical space with things that inspire me. So like, I'm the wall that I'm looking at right now is framed prints of of some of my favorite unmistakable, creative guests with some of the messages that I found the most inspiring. Stuff like that. And I tend to be very clean like I think being minimalist is is a way to to keep your mind clear because I wanna preserve my cognitive bandwidth for the things that are most when you just have a bunch of you physical clutter crates, mental chaos in my mind, right? And and so you were saying that it doesn't sound like the book is going as well as you had wished that it would be going. And so is that the thing that's taking you to the dark places that you're talking about that is that is part of it. There's there's that's a small part of it. They're a bunch of other things too personal stuff top over the course here. But that that I think that the the thing that's so hard about this is that you keep telling yourself over and over don't have any expectations. But it's hard not to. I think you know this firsthand because you've published books as well. And it's this sort of strange paradox direction sil- to say, okay, I've gotta learn how to be okay with this. And just let it go. And then that's that's been my work. I think for the better part. Of the month falling book launch. I mean, it's amazing to me that you would even come on the show and say like, oh, you know, this book isn't selling as well as as I thought it would I thinking back to the beginnings of of my latest book and people would ask me. How's it going? And my first reaction was like, I actually don't know. I mean, like, I know how many books selling, but it it's it's it's so hard to know how well the book is gonna do in the beginning. And the things I feel like if I if I told you it was going amazing. I would I would be lying, and it's only been out for a month. So that's another thing too to think about, but I also think it would be a responsible bull of me not to be transparent. The good news is that the message of the book is really resonating with the people who've read it, you know, the tweets that have come in the Instagram posts a lot of people seem to be really really appreciating the message. So I think that the good thing about that is that if something has emotional. Resonance it has the potential to keep spreading long after a launch period in which are aggressively promoting it. I mean, going back to your your Wall Street Journal bestseller success. I guess I don't remember seeing your time line of whether there is any sort of gap between that and your next book the big. Creating Zion for you like, you know, big shoes to fill being your own. Oh, yeah. Of course. No question about it. I the reason I got my book deal at penguin was. Because of the fact that myself published book had been a big success. So just imagine going in with the fact that your book deal was contingent on this, and the ideas that okay, this guy, moved fifteen thousand copies probably he could do it again. Yeah. And I guess I had a a somewhat similar experience. My first book was successful. But it was you know, completely nation. So I end up in a completely different different genre. But it actually ended up taking me quite a while to even realize like how lucky I got the first time around, and and that to to to make that sort of thing happen again that I was going to have to like clean the slate. And in a way start over like it was for myself. I really I think it really brought my head into places that were a detriment to to my work. And then it took me a while to get back to to to to creating creating sake. That's that is that is one of the hardest things to do. I think it's actually sometimes worse after you've been successful. Because of the fact that you have these expectations. Whereas if you had never been successfully that in the first place than you have no idea what you're missing I wanna go back to what you were saying about being in those interviews early on and and wanting and now thinking, I probably should've just said fuck this. I don't really wanna work. There's work your work with this work at this job. That makes a lot of sense to me in when I think back to those early days of trying to be in your typical career where you go get a go to an interview and you go get a job. And you you you hold that job for a while. I always didn't really realize at the time. But there was sort of a disconnect in that I had a wide variety of of interest, and I wanted to figure out and do my own things. And every job I was looking at it kinda wanted you to do some very specialized kind of thing. And so very it took me a very long time to realize that it wasn't a fit for me in the first place is that something that you've discovered along the way I mean, you were saying that you felt like it didn't you didn't have a choice. But was it that you it was just the wrong fit for you to begin with, absolutely. It was just the wrong fit to begin with his wouldn't you mismatched Telemann varmints, easy to believe that you don't have the talent. And it's easy for somebody. Who runs the environment to believe that the person is as problematic, but usually just a mismatch. Did it take you a while to figure that out? Yeah. I did it took me a really long time. So I think that if somebody put me in a role where I was doing creative work. I would probably thrive. Well, it's funny. You were saying that you would be a great asset to a company now. But I'm assuming that I'm assuming that you wouldn't want to have a day job myself. Personally. I have had nightmares that I'm being offered like a half a million dollar salaries somewhere, which is a strange nightmare to have. Because in the dream. I'm like really torn like, I don't know half million dollars a lot of year. But I don't think I can stop doing what I'm doing. I you know, I mean, I think if I were offered a million dollars. I would have a serious conflict. Like, I would I would have to give some serious thought to doing that. I'd be lying if I said that I wouldn't think about it. But. That being said, yeah, I probably wouldn't wanna job. I mean, I've gotten f you get used to sort of living a certain way for such a long time, you kind of get conditioned into way that you are I have a friend who has a really interesting philosophies of Dogra friend his whole approach to life is he doesn't have goals. He only has three goals which are to go. Interesting places. Meet interesting people and do interesting things is this Tynan. No is not. Okay. As funny. He was he was really on the podcast. Sounds like somebody who would have a similar a similar philosophy to that. Yeah. And it's interesting that through living this life of following your own curiosity, and creating what is interesting to you, which is something that both of us have been doing for the last decade or so it at least it interesting that you develop the skill stack that could potentially be very valuable in the rest of the world yet. Nothing that we did before really prepared prepared us for that. And I feel like this is a lot of what you're talking about in audience of one is developing this kind of skill set that nobody's gonna teach you that you have to discover yourself is that part of the message of the book. Yeah. I think so I think that the thing is that there is great value to this that it can translate to other parts of your life in unexpected ways. I didn't end up here with some sort of grand plan. This a lot of this was largely by by accident. And I think that it's been a very fortunate accent. But there's so many parts of this that you couldn't have sat down on drawn a plan for this crew didn't even exist when I was leaving business school. Right. And and now you've interviewed how many hundreds of craters have you interviewed now more than seven hundred more than seven hundred. What are some of the main things that you've learned doing so many of those interviews? Well, I think the that the thing that's interesting is is that we tend to think that people who are incredibly skilled or, you know, successful and some sort of capacity that society considered successful are superhuman. They don't have flaws or that they're not people who struggle. But they're they're just like everybody else. I think that they also have a real commitment to what they wanna do and that's often in conflict with the sort of the world around them there. I'll tell you the one sort of common pattern. I think between every single person that I've interviewed every single person has done. Something extraordinary is that they're able to either overcome or completely ignore their social programming. So they don't let other people's value systems and other people's choices dictate their actions were there any. Major conversations that you had that gave you particular, paradigm shifts. Well will. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of them. But I I would say probably the one that I had with Harvard neuroscientist names Trini play. Who's probably went the smartest guys you'll ever meet. I think that talking to him just he kind of breaks down goals in a way that makes you understand a lot of your own behavior. But another one that is not nearly as we roll not as logical as Bob Goff. We're talking about a lot of emotional things. We're talking about love. We're talking about. Heartbreak. We're talking about things that hurt. And one of the things that struck me about what he said is that everybody is just doing the best. They can with what we have. And of course, people are going to hurt us. Chances are that I've heard people without intending to, you know, the people who've hurt me of probably not started out with the intention of hurting hurting me. I mean, it just it's kind of what happens nobody is. I think they're very few people who walk the world of genuine malicious intent it just happens because of circumstance or situations. And has that affected the way that you live in someway? Well, it's affected the way that I've chosen to process things that have hurt me and people that I have felt the resentment towards, and it's it's made me sort of work harder at letting go whatever resentment I might have felt to some of these people, right? Is there something that you tell yourself some sort of an internal mantra when you do find catch yourself feeling resentment towards somebody. Well, one recognize that resentment is a form of energy, and it's energy that I'll carry into other interactions and when I do resent somebody from the past. I'm basically letting the past dictate the future. Right. Right. So just by telling yourself that. Or are you able to find your way out of not always not always I think that that's the other thing with the human brain, right? Is that we we really love the idea that we can control everything that it's thinking the sauce just flow sometimes, and sometimes no I can't get my way out of it. Sometimes I can't stop and it's frustrating, but I also moments recognized. Okay. These are just thoughts. They're not necessarily real. Yeah. Sometimes a logical approach to it where breaking down like, oh, there have no reason for me to worry about this medical test that I'm going to get results for a week because there's nothing I can do about it now. And I might end up wearing for nothing. And even if there is a problem, it will still be energy wasted. You tell yourself that logically. But then actually like reducing the worry in some way. Were reducing any sort of negative emotion can can be tricky at times. So anyway, swinging around thank you so much for being on on the show. I really highly highly recommend everybody go out and get the book audience of one. It's got a great message in there about a reclaiming creativity for its own sake. Listen to the unmistakable creative three has a ton of amazing interviews on there with Bank robbers and neuroscientists and creators in creators earlier, but you've interviewed all sorts of people on there. Right. Yes. Definitely Bank robbers drug dealers performance psychologist authors. Entrepreneurs in billionaires awesome. All right Sweeney. Thank you so much for being on the show. Yeah. My pleasure. Is love your work, helping you find the intersection on your love and money ven diagram. Does it bring you the inspiration and motivation to make you into the person that you want to be if so we together you, and I can make this the show that we want it to be I'm trying to make nourishing and thoughtful show, and I could use your help with that. Please donate to the show. Just a coffee a month will help support the hosting and production of this show. Just a coffee a month will help spread love. 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