8 Episode results for "Rick Full"

E1106: Desktop Metal CEO Ric Fulop shares insights from taking two companies public, traditional IPO vs. SPAC, future of Computer-aided design & more

This Week in Startups

1:17:12 hr | 3 months ago

E1106: Desktop Metal CEO Ric Fulop shares insights from taking two companies public, traditional IPO vs. SPAC, future of Computer-aided design & more

"This week in startups brought to you by. Clavijo Clavijo is the ECOMMERCE marketing platform that helps brands build relationships with memorable email. An SMS messages over forty thousand brands choose Flavio to help them grow learn more and get started with a free trial. At CLEO DOT com slash twist. That's K. L. A. V. I. Y. O. Dot Com slash twist fiber find the perfect freelance services for your business go to five or dot com and use code twists receive ten percent off your first order and del for entrepreneurs level up your hardware today and save up to forty three percent by going to launch dot co Slash del. Hey everybody. It's a really special day here on this week in startups because today I wanNA share with you. One of the Great Life Lessons I've learned, which is play the long game. In life you work hard. And you meet a lot of people. And you treat everybody you meet with respect. And you try to support everybody you can to the greatest extent possible. This is why I have some of the greatest friendships in my life that I've ever had at the age of forty nine because every time I meet somebody and I make a friendship. I just say. I'm going to go wall in on this. That's my feeling with my team members here at launch and inside. If you're on my team ongoing all in I'm going to support you forever. If you're in good standing. if you are a friend I'm going to be loyal I'm going to do whatever it takes to help you succeed in your life and be there for you and listen. I call this radical friendship I call it radical partnership I just put the where radical in front of these relationships because. Why not if you've chosen to have this person your life why not radically support them and. Number of years ago I think it's getting on a decade. group from New Hampshire. From, a company called Dine D. Y. Wyan Dot, com dying and I knew them because they helped me wrap my dns for my home video cameras back in the day. They wrote me at a very pleasant note said, Hey would you join our board? We're thinking about raising around we need an independent board member. And I said a mate and they shared with me they were making like I don't know Twenty Million Dollars Fifteen, twenty, million dollars, and then they're EBA was fourteen million and I wrote back is said I'm sorry I don't understand you're saying this is how much you've raised. We've seen this is how much you make and they said, no, that's we make we've raised. Zero dollars and I said, okay when can you meet their parents? Francisco next week I said we'll when deal and they said Tuesday said, meet me at Fang by the Mosconi Center next to the W hotels. Great. Great. Great Asian Food Asian Fusion You're going to get the duck pancakes over there. Incredible. It just fantastic and we said I joined the board. I get to the board meeting and I met a gentleman named Rick Fulham. And he is one of the smartest kindest most thoughtful people I ever meet again a random series of events. and. Then that gentleman recogni develop friendship spend a little time together on. Untuckit they it the rock rick is that what they call the rock they call it the Rock, right? Yeah. We spend a little time we get along. We vibe we talk for hours. And Just. One Day Rick says I'm starting something new I'd like you involved I say. Where do I send the check because I? Know Rick's going to win because he's a winner that's all you need to life. And Rick Says Okay here and I say can I get twice that amount rix as J. L. oversubscribed I'm GonNa take three times that amount Anyway, he gets me a tiny little slice. Of something, I, know nothing about three D. Printing. What does Jake Aldo about three different thing? I. Know Nothing while I now is that rick full up is one of the Great Human Beings I've met in my life. As a human being as a technologist and as a leader of companies and I am so delighted to have my good friend full up on the program to talk about desktop metal. Because Wreck. Just SP- backed. Desktop metal, and now we have to have a little disclaimer here. We cannot talk about certain things wreck. Don't know all the rules of the road but I I want to congratulate you on the Tremendous success you've had with desktop metal to date and. I've had three companies that have invested in go public now Uber. Waiter we had a couple of shares we got in that it was Kinda minimus. I don't it doesn't really count but I guess it counts technically because they bought one of our companies and now desktop mental. So thank you for including me in the journey you didn't have to you were oversubscribed and you just saved a little slice for your boy Jay cow and that's all I. Ask any of my friends you save a lives for Jacomb. THREE SIZES I may ask for three but I'll take one one slice everybody knows the rules. wreck congratulations on an undoing. This back starts with number one what is desktop metal and number two why did you choose this moment to do a Spec and explained the process and we'll get into that here in the second. Yeah. So desktop is one of leading providers or any brothers. We make machines that make it really easy to print metal parts at scale, which is something that you could really do easily before we came along, you have this legacy technology that use lasers and special facilities and was complicated and we've. Made that technology a lot more accessible and friendly due to the mass market. In the Today, it's used by hundred companies globally many fortune five hundred companies to make metal parts, and we're entering the composites baseless while we've got one of the leading. Performance. Continuous fiber composite systems in the market So. We. Make it easier to make stuff. And are those machines behind you for those of US watching on the youtube channel or on the video version of the PODCAST, which by the way, our video version should be on spotify a day. Now thanks to to my friends, Daniel ECK and everybody over spotify shoutout out spotify for us in everything Are those the machines behind you. What are the cost of these machines? These are not three D. printers for people at home to build starwars, characters, or ornaments toys. These are metal printers to print components for what type of companies for what type of application and the cost of yet. They are most accessible system started thirty, five, hundred bucks a year which we're trying to composite space but on the on the. Metal side they start around one, hundred, sixty thousand and they go all the way up to two million when it's fully loaded for the mass production system. So we have a full range of technologies. The SME products are kind of in the range of a high end CNC machine so they're very affordable if you're shop at. Can you explain what that means? two words composite CNC? Yes EMC is a mailing system so. Just, go just type in CNC on Youtube and you'll see feel you won't be it was how people used to make metal parts. That's right. Exactly yeah and it means cutting the metal as opposed to printing the mental. Am I, correct that's right. I totally right. Yeah. Okay. So people would previously use these giant machines cut metal. CAST that would make a mold and cast out yes. Yes and that is incredibly costly time consuming. Totally, yeah, it's slow yet many weeks to get apart from just to get them all to then like you got Morteza mother in many parts so that the cost is prohibitive for a short run. Doing a digitally revolutionary and you can do a lot more geometry that could have gone otherwise in this our systems that are used by everybody from like Honda Nissan Toyota Forward your customers. Yeah. Yeah. What would an automaker us for? Would they? If you were building a new BMW, they wouldn't be using these for the BMW I would that I would drive. But maybe if they were making BMW prototype instead of doing a mold waiting eight weeks or six weeks and go through that expense, they could try a couple of different variations on break or a a what what would they print as an example of putting aside BMW or any specific person and automaker? Actually. Jason. So automotive is maybe twenty percent of our business. Oh, it's not a a massive side of this, but it's it's significant. We don't have conquest It's a pretty horizontal business. It's not lumpy, which is actually a great computer of the business. But we actually make systems for mass production so Really, our machines can print hundreds of metric tons of parts per year. It's it's incredible that they there it's like a printing press for metal. while. So that is mind blowing on a number of levels because you've taken what would have been the iteration product process if the understanding correctly and I am a CANEA fighting, you've combined the iteration process with the mass production process and now it is one thing. That didn't also the fact that the now you can have physics define the shape of the park. Today we do a lot of things based on the manufacturing process, but if you free yourself from the constraints of manufacturing. Processes, you could have what's called genitive design where the physics. Not that an object will be exposed to end up. The shape of the pardon as a result, you end up with these things that look like they're biotic or or you know from outer space but there are a lot more efficient, lighter weight much greener, and so it's A. Definitely the wave of the future and so this hitter of process I always see as an example, there are some people get crazy with their cars and they're trying to reduce weight but increase. The stability of the car. So they were replaced stock parts whether it's like the pedals with pedals that have you know I don't know half the amount of weight, but twice the strength or something to that effect. This. Has this type of adoration has never existed before therefore, you know the the iteration process of reducing the weight of the pedals or some other part to increase the fuel efficiency of Ev or gas car nice engine that things were were just not bothered with right it was kind of like why even bother? When you when you went to position machine design class in the chemical engineering or or anything like that you would. Usually suggests that you start with. A? Simple. SHAPE. Or two and a half the shapes, sizes and That's that's. Sort of. The old way of thinking, and if you don't have constraints and you can make any shape than You know you can have also almost like artificial intelligence determine. What's the optimal? Lawrence Luke Mine, which is actually incredible where to cover some of the I plus the printing and some more of the use cases of desktop metal. Now, what you all onto at desktop metal and that in segment three, we're gonNA talk about back when we get back on the streets scarves. Right if you're growing in e commerce business and that's your focus, you need a platform that is focused on growth, and that platform is clay vio K. L. A. I? Y.. Oh, and it is the ultimate ECOMMERCE marketing platform for online brands of all kinds and sizes whether you're just getting started or you're running a well known brand. It gives you everything you need to send. Memorable branded email. So this handed emails are very specific to each user and you get to also send text messages and more build strong brand relationship that keeps your customers coming back with flexible automation's powerful insights and super precise targeting. That's the key that targeting Cleo is the faster way to turn great ideas into great customer experiences. That's why it's trusted by over forty thousand brands like. Proof huckleberry and even eight sleep which I'm an investor in great great bed by the way and you know if you want to target those adds to the right person, you might have differences. Based upon things you've learned about them and your data sets and you want to craft those messages. Flavio will help you craft those messages just visit Cleveland Oh K. L. A. V. I. Y. dot com slash twists, and get started today with a free trial for our listeners CLEO DOT com slash twist. All right. It's a very special edition of this week in startups. You've all been hearing about SPAAK's special purpose acquisition corporations companies. Companies or corporations I don't even know it's the same word. It's a vehicle. It's a vehicle to go public and you guys have chosen to do that and I believe that was announced on Wednesday August twenty six democrat. Yeah that was announced. We'll talk about that in the next segment right now I want people to understand more about the use cases of desktop metal full disclosure young for Jacob I was able to invest in this and It's a third companies go public for me, which is a really big deal because most investors and venture capitalists and. They don't see one IPO in their career and I'm putting up numbers already in really I I can't thank you enough for including me on the journey fighter. Yeah. Thanks pal appreciated in many many more to go hopefully. As. We both continue on our friendship and career. If if you to remember that story I was coming down to see. The folks that ended up investing in the in all hotels were sold out in your let me crash in your place is. All that and I made you a brisket today basket. What did I make? It was good. I don't remember what it was. I think I may have done a Tomahawk Chop. Yeah. So anyway, just for those, who are you lazy bastards man this is why I run circles around a lot of us because when founders in town all I tell them is SFO my house here's the directions. Here's the masters the second master sweet I listen I'm blowing it out now and then I just immediately get me a brisket I call my sister get a brisket boom we get that brisk Gowan we slice it up and then we stay up we eat the brisket. And we talk and we talked and we talked we talked you know our mutual friend Rob May. When he comes out I told Romay if you ever come to town and I see you on social media and you're staying at a hotel. I am I am going to come to the hotel who to pick you up and bring it to the house do not. In. This to all my. Friends to come to this town and not stay at the CAL compound. But you're going to be. Talked about we chopped it up and that was great. Let's get back to desktop metal. There is this concept of Ai. Artificial intelligence machine learning you know, and then combining that with metal and printing parts is there an example you can give us without saying the name of the customer? Or a fantastical example even better of something that inten years you'd be able to do with ai that could have a dramatic impact on humanity. And you second to think that through. What I'm looking for as an example from now and an example that's so fantastical that our minds and our brains will melt. Yes today products are basically an engineer. I'm a longtime investor in cat. So I think one of my early mentors in the in the sort of. Venture Investing Business fifteen years Nora in five years as an investor. In investing side I was one of the early backers of on shape with the series. which sold for five hundred, million to PD see with. Puerto Labs, which is public company three point eight, billion market cap today and We did also series space claim which went to answers and which went to Autodesk Solid work would became the so as sixty percent market share of the CAD software markets were cat is like those soccer used to sketch parts and computer aided design. This is. This is how things are built in three D on a computer and then manifest them in the real world and three D. printers took this from. From an abstraction, you know where one thing happened in one building one thing and another, and they both happened in the same space in the same office. Exactly. So the sort of the history of cat is. There's a company called PD in the nineties that made a parametric and parametric means that you change one thing and the whole thing. Based on that change and and you know if were creating you know everything is in in context and there's references medically when you change something and there's a history for the for the design of apart. So in that type of mentality designing products, you have a scatter in your you're as an engineer. Are Essentially growing the shape of part you may do analysis to to figure it out, but it's a relatively simplistic approach where there's no multi physics context to what you're trying to design. That means by multi physics is all the things that are going to happen to that object from magnetics to heat to friction to mention loads that you expose that part too, and so when you're making conflicts engineered products today, they juniors thinking about all that stuff in the context of his head. A product is an assembly of thousands of parts or hundreds of parts or Dawson's parts, and so. If you had say a rocket in the entire rocket is designed. To run analysis on the entire thing on multi physics basis would be quite complex. There's a hundred thousand parts in that device in many engineers worked in their little parts of the design. I would say a decade from now. We're GONNA. Have a I'm not talking about average stuck about engineering software today but the. The. In the future, you're going to have all of the physics that the object is going to see the fine in the computer will do the design. And I know that there's a if I asked the CEO appeal, the crowd companies wouldn't agree with me but I think this is how it's GonNa play in the human is going to be essentially defining the requirements for the product and the in the design of product. Is GonNa be done to some extent by computer the or the or the or the cloud system that you're exposing it to. You know whether you take a there's something called assembly consolidation, which is a design technique where you take many parts do they then you print it a single component things of that nature you'll be able to fully automate, and then once you have that in context of the parts in a large system or a large product. And you can expose him to like multi physics analysis. You'll be able to adapt the shapes in the context of multi physics problem in that that becomes. That's a huge opportunity to in engineering softer feel. Okay. Again, I'm going to just ask my neophyte questions, which is kind of especially on this podcast. Half the audience as much smarter than me and the other half of the audience just just like me trying to catch up with this. jakup there's no there's no soccer to do what I just described today where it's going to be in five years in so so but but you can do this in a small group of parts like you can get three parts in the context of themselves right? But. If you're trying to define a say, here's a door or power, and it's going to be opening and closing, and you want to do the crash protection as part of it and you WanNa, do the where you place the Hingis as part of it in fire where impaired durability and all of these things a single problem in have this system redefine itself that that doesn't exist, but it will exist and that doesn't that doesn't exist for just the door. I. Mean it could exist for the entire vehicle because you also have heat and cold. So if the door an AMEX and everything is Going to be the computer and the computer will have an objective. The objective will be gas mileage lower costs car, and then you could move the dial and tell the a high listen. This car is for military purposes WH-. What we want, is it for it to be rugged don't care about gas mileage we care about how rugged it is and the and the life cycle of it, and if it's going to be able to withstand. Yeah and I. And for a Tesla, you might say I want this thing to have the greatest efficiency for an electric vehicle. So it being light and it being aerodynamic becomes more important correct. Yeah. Making you know the Space Flint for how much space you have inside the vehicle like the in need is and storage that that's your sort of package protection, and then from there, you start to define the restless. softer capability doesn't exist it, but we're going to be there in a decade for sure your question. My Mind in an example that comes to mind for me is when we grew up you and I are both Gen xers I don't know if you had this experience where they brought us to the assembly hall and we watched the space shuttle, take off and land every time. but. The. The tragedy I'm not gonNA remember which the names of each of the no one was I believe the Challenger One of them blew up tragically on takeoff because I believe in a ring and the other one came apart in entry because of tiles which couldn't stand the heat and in those two. Is that credit there. So yeah the installation on take her one of the one of the leading edges and then that that Cascaded he's duck escaping into reentry yeah. And so. In in if this technology has existed back then. Software that thinks holistically about the outcome that you're looking for, which is to protect the souls onboard the space shuttle on the vehicle at all cost, its potential it there is a a very high potential. Both of those could have been avoided because a lot of these errors that happen in aerospace are cascading arrows that cannot be predicted or extremely hard to predict when one person's working on the nut and the ball and the other person's doing the o ring and get another person's doing the wiring for you know. The television sets on the back of the airplane seats. Correct. I mean, I think it's going to be a wild who will consist of size of a spatial percent that's quite a complicated. System but I think that the. Yeah I mean it's definitely going to be within our lifetimes in setup where software will be able to design in context very large systems and do simulate accumulation and put a safety factor across the full system so that that will exist How many customers ballpark does desktop mental at this time? Hundreds hundreds. Great when we get back from a commercial break and. The company is in year five. It's almost five almost. Yeah Yeah I'm I'm have a very weird gift of. Understanding the time but only for startups I I don't know how many years they've been married. But I always remember when the startups were. This is the problem I have to get to. Of of my of of our wedding day because my wife and I are like wait thirteen years for fourteen years or fifteen years i. don't know it's been. It's been eighteen wonderful years together. But when we get back from this break, understand why you took this opportunity to do this back because specs have become a relatively new. Phenomenon that were previously not available and really not that interesting. But Bill Gurley himself, our mutual friend and Tim author mutual friend they both have now become enamored leaders leaders in thinking about new ways to get companies going public and reverse. The. Horrible trend of less companies being public and retail investors having less access to startups in the early stages of the might WanNa talk about why you chose this back and what you'd think of the overall market of companies going public. Than they had but just like they used to in the eighties and nineties when we get back on this week in startups. We all know the way we are working together has changed overnight. We've all gone from going to offices and commuting to working from home, and if there's one thing we've learned, it's that you need the right resources and you're going to need to adapt and fiver is a great way for you to solve your cute business needs right now twenty twenty has been full of all this uncertainty and finding the right talent can be time consuming, frustrating and expensive. Don't I know it? It's really hard to find great people. And Your Business is probably very dynamic. You might need new things done that you didn't need done previously because of. The unique situation in so fivers marketplace will connect you with businesses and freelancers who offer hundreds of digital services. The copywriting graphic design developers, film editing, whatever it is, you need to make an explainer video you WanNa make new landing page you're going to get it done with five or F-. I E R is the website you can go to it's really amazing because. They have all the reviews there and they tell you people's availability. So you can find somebody and get the price ahead of time five or takes the friction and the annoyance had a finding a freelancer. It's really the best way to explain that they have twenty, four, seven customer service and the network of quality talent. We use it here all the time at launch. And it's really been great for research. That's like I think a secret thing people don't know when you check out at five dot com, you will receive ten percent off if you use the code twist five or dot Com F.. I V. E. R. R., DOT COM use that code twists or they know that I sent you I know you don't need to save ten percent but please go ahead. Thank fiber on twitter for supporting show and go ahead and when you use a service, please the first time use that coat twist let's get back to. There's amazing episode right Rick Full Up is with us the CEO and Founder or cofounder I don't know if you're a solo founder or CO founder. Yeah four I got four MIT professors as co founders who are your friends and then join. Rick. All. Our folks are fighters company as well. And it really has been. You've moved at a very fast paced with this company. From from interational to getting to market product market fit I just remember early you sending me taxing. We just got this client which has got this client this this thing my work. You had very early success with customers Yeah it was. We knew we wanted to build. So we we had been. To some extent A. Investing in this space and the the market. had been using the technology for a long time before this and You know. So it was a definitely an area where we have experienced. Yeah I. Mean That's Super Helpful. So let's talk. When new customers so knowing customers is is a big deal. I mean having relationships early adopters and. That that is a definitely A. Your you work with people to develop a product for them in that that is. Definitely helpful to see huge advantage. When you know the customer, you understand their needs and they trust you and trust is a big part of this because. They have to trust you in order to write a two, three, four, five, ten, million dollar check for a hardware product that. is in your head right now is a mockup essentially right I. mean people were offering deposits for things that did not yet exist if I remember correctly. Yep. And you're not the only person who's ever done that by the way you you took famously you know he's he was able to help fund the company through the deposits I. Up Yeah and did a great job at it. Our mutual friend in you did you deploy that same tactic was was taking custody Mazda Deposits in order to fund the company one of the strategies here. We didn't take deposits like like that as as aggressively but we knew what we wanted to build and we went batted at full speed and. you know we had a couple of centers and turns early on with this way that we do that, and then eventually pretty quickly settled that we wanted to sort of redefine powder metallurgy but for three D. Printing and you know sort of separate thermal processing from the shaping parts and that would allow you to parts in an office environment or one hundred times. Faster than the legacy technology and you know you make something one hundred times faster in your make parts at one twenty F- The cost of previous process and the market is huge. You know we make twelve trillion dollars worth of parts of the year and twelve trillion dollars. Worth of parts are made with desktop mental equipment no, no, no, no. Twelve trillion dollars. In, the world that's your tab. So we're not there yet. I was like this doesn't make any sense. What are you actually printing money? With it. please. Don't use it for forgery. I know desktop metal has some very elegant technology do not three D. print a quarter that's not allowed. Let's talk a little bit about the process short. I'm sure you're under a lot of pressure at this early success with the banker circling and saying, Hey, here's the traditional process. And those banks are very aggressive and they like to wine and dine founder. See you have them over here. You know trying to get an early and as having been a metric apples on having had other success there like circling. and. Then you have the direct listing for here and you're watching spotify do that and you're watching bill girlies, blog posts and tweets, and then you see our friendship math. Basically restart the movement I have to give him a lot of credit for doing that. He deserves all the credit one, hundred percent right the. SPEC equals Timoth quarterback. I remember sitting at the poker table with him when he explained it to me and I was like you got explain it to be two more times out of do stupid understand this and he did to his credit. So you're watching the three options explained to me as a founder, your assessment of each one and why you chose as our friend bill gurley wrote. In above the crowd has amazing blog, if you don't read every poster idiot, this is like literally the freest knowledge from one of the most brilliant investors in history above the crowd just Google it. He just wrote door number three you pick door number three. Tell me about door number one door number to endure number three and what the process is in your mind of which door to pick. Okay. So I've done to Dr Number One. I took the company public. Would you know talking bankers of Morgan Stanley and Goldman back you know nine and we did the whole thing and it was a great experience and it took a long time and you know you like a year or preparation. Oh, seven through eight, and then the await prices happen and then. The bankers delay a year and it's like you don't have any control of the process which is not great but then you go out and then you're done it that approach you do your se work, I like the paperwork that you submit and all that stuff and you get your swan you your effective once you're done through your IPO and then. Get. Your comments and all that In the it takes a long time and it's a definitely a anymore process. There also is a criticism of that process from Bill Gurley that the banks get. A little bit the alignment is not perfect. Maybe you could. You could speak to that maybe not in your deal, but just in general. Or in terms of your deal what happened? Yeah. Well, well back in two thousand and nine when we did our when I did a regular IPO at we left three hundred, eighty million dollars in the table basically from underpricing explain how that happened and then what the next six months or like for you grinding your teeth thinking about that, how do you believe three eighty on the table honestly I didn't think about it afterwards. It was like a big win. Right broker Karalis, looking across one hundred IPO is this is your first so you're happy because. We're like, thank God we got through the thing it was so much work. Oh, my goodness but but the state went out what dollar and then what it P get. I can't even remember it was like from like a fourteen bucks to eighteen or something like that anyway the. Red You should have you should have captured that spread. As opposed to the bank or their, you know best friends who got. It's really the way that it works as it was the best friends that would prediction capitalist spread in that regular IPO indic- I remember meeting the best friends in the roadshow and then the regular people and then when the allocation comes the book is open and there's some transparency but it it is they do. There is some underpricing in order to guarantee the man and ensure that it's a successful offering. How much pop is you know I guess depends on PR and other sort of interest from the investor community et Cetera. So anyway, I think that every every enterpreneur was okay with that spread but they they are leaving money on the table and it is it is what it is. Then Bill Annoy folks started look at this direct thing thing. They made a lot of Hey, within the problem with direct listing that that's when the company literally just dust the work themselves enlist themselves is that It's there is there's no you're not able to raise primary capital as part of the direct listening, and so that was a limitation of it and and I remember meeting in January at a World Economic Forum with the vice. Chair of the New York Stock Exchange in John Title and asking him how can we do a direct listing and We've got cash in the balance sheet and we you know we'd be a great candidate for it and we could start to do things that we want to do and the problem with it was reckless thing. You have to wait a certain amount of time before you can raise capital after direct listing and so there's some limitations to it and. John was working on on with the SEC to try to come up with a mechanism that would allow you to rate primary capitalist part of a direct. Usually when a company goes public trying to raise capital, you're trying to sell shares to long-term holders hopefully. But of course, these friends of banks they're just flipping they're buying it for fourteen, selling it for eighteen or maybe they sell half their position. and. You Really Want long-term holders. You want long only mutual funds you want high-quality investors some of the Friends of the bank are high quality investors, but there's no mechanism for them to build up position when they get a such a small amount of an IPO. It's a, there's some complications through that do that approach then then the direct listing had that problem actually last week actually on Wednesday the same way that we went public the the SEC finally approved primary capital to direct listing. So it will be a thing and it's a new thing and and I think bill tweeted to John on twitter. Thank for all his work to make that. And that's not fair to all shareholders because my understanding is when you do a direct listing. A feature or a bug or just that nuance of it is there is no more lock-up period. You just shares her tradeable or do you have to write that in? It really depends. Every deal is different You Really WanNa lock up period so that you have A. lock-up period important. because. New investors coming in you know WanNa feel like the public that's coming in want to feel like like. Somebody's you know there are no surprises. You want to have a little bit of time for the for the public to see company perform and see the that. They said they were going to do is what they do all of that. So I mean I, think it's a I mean that's just my personal opinion. I think the speech last right I mean you you you're not. You're not saying you buy shares now I sell shares. Now you're saying you buy shares now and we're in it together and I'm not going anywhere for some period of time. Honestly I. Am Not in a not a seller in our company so. Be a alum holder in our company me to him during this decade from now and and so I think we're But in the in the You know there I think the that in direct listing, you may need to create a flowed. So some of the ones like spotify or slack may have. Done it without a without lockup. Anyway. Okay. Before we go to when we get back from his quick break now that we've done door number one traditional process, you leave money on the table. It takes a heck of a long time and there's a little shenanigans perhaps going on and great they have it as an option, but there are some shenanigans and inefficiencies that Bill Gurley and other. Practices are my brand, Mike his been also very outspoken about yes. So I mean the two most arguably the number one and number two most successful investors I mean we we could argue it but they're mount rushmore of venture capital are are looking for change. Now, we have this to reckless thing with. the ability to raise capital. Now, there's competition puts a little pressure on the banks to maybe make that I process a little bit better. We get back from this break we talk about door number three, which desktop mental chose when we get back on this week and starner's. Hey everybody you know Dow has been sponsoring this week in startups and they've been a tremendous supporter of me for many years and I have been a tremendous supporter of Dallas because I am obsessed with those big curve beautiful Dow monitors accent him to every employee long story short del for entrepreneurs has really been trying to help every single one of our startups and we're very lucky today have to have mobile. So come. On the program and he runs del for entrepreneurs, tell us a little bit about what you do at Dell and why entrepreneurship is so important to the team at Dell. Yet. Thanks thanks for having me. As you said, name is mobilized. I oversee strategic partnerships and the central principle initiative for Dell small business in the US, and ultimately we want to make sure that when he comes technology solutions, small business owners and it's a preneurs considered Dell as a preferred choice. At Kearney. With in terms of. What's going on the market? Making sure that we haven't compensations as went to printers in small business owners I, looking more to You know try vin survive in missile damage wants to make sure that it can consider debts preferred technology partner. AM excited to be here and you don't teach you to your question. enterpreneurs important for us. Del at Denny's apprenticeship we've been around for a he's thirty five years and Michael Dell is over Mike Hunt printers out there actually make sense. Yeah. It makes sense for us to operate enterpreneurs our Dini's embedded in enterpreneurship, and so that's why we we have this program and that's why we re excited about punishable twist save sporty three percent. When you take an extra five percent off at launch dot co slashed out while you're there you can also register for free it consultation and be after in to win a two hundred dollars, Amazon. Gift. Card. Right is a yum yum day for Jake Cal your boy. It's working hard I. One hundred investments a year and I am just very lucky to have developed a friendship with rick full up and you get that phone call from somebody on his level and you just say, where do I send the check and I was lucky enough to be able to put a small bat on desktop metal and I long the company. When I get my shares I'm holding come telling people right now I don't know how this works when I get them distributed. We'll talk about that now here in the third. Segment but. I'm long rick fill up and I'm long desktop metal. I am an interested Party disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer When did people start approaching you about this back? When did you and then how did you make the decision to pick back and explain to people just generally what is this back like just like you expand the first two processes. So. The back is special purpose acquisition company and it's a model where somebody. Nicole it a promoter or a you know. Manager. Manager of a SPEC, we'll go out and race capital and build a build a strategy around and go and find a company or they can go in a acquire after the the stock is a public company. So you raise capital, you put enough trust you pay Some, you know small interest return to do those investors and and that that manager will go out and search for a period of a year or two years or whatever period is he'll go search for a company. And so that that there's approximately thirty billion dollars worth of back capital in the market right now. you know an increase from last year increase from the year before It's been a while since this has existed in the past that people that. Data's back race this backward in also known as a blank check company there were quite rare and and You didn't see. You didn't see high quality folks attached to them. What's really changed is since dramatic got involved, he has raised the quality of the people that are doing it and you have people now that that are. Very high quality managers. Executing the strategies you've got people like data dragonair who's extremely high quality person you have bill bill permit said his name but bill ackman is a very been very successful Yup. If got the. So there is a range of a very successful folks that are. Put. Together these Roger Fraydon who is the vice chairman of Honeywell is packing there's there's A pull up a chart right now should we? We actually have a chart of this? The number of spags created now is We had a big step obviously after the financial crisis, but now we're at peak. Nick is that eighty-one? Their eighty-one specs this year have been created and we're only halfway through the year. So I'M GONNA assume that's going to double. I don't know is that twenty what year is that there twenty eighteen? That's twenty twenty with eighty one show. This thing's going to get more momentum and probably end the year over one hundred, twenty I'm going to guess right now there's one hundred ten facts for for deals and The. The reality is that. You know there are specific to a segment and you've got to find somebody that is a matchmaking process. So you get a board member with it. In our case, we're really lucky to partner Leo Henry, he was the fellow that Leo. He did land systems back in the day. Actually he bid. To Ci an atheist broadband and Henry yes. Yes. Yes. Sorry. About another one spiegel. was that. A lot of going around the industry. So that's fantastic. So you find a high quality manager. He says I want to be involved and he brings how much cash in his back. In the trust and so now it's not like an IPO. Trust the cash has to stick in the trust. The people that are investors have to like the you know they. They can have a proxy boat ride before the mergers flows. and. then. In order to backstop the dealing kissers redemptions, you raise what's called A. which arrived investment in public antiquity hectic equity yeah. So. That that is. Where you get the mutual funds in a long only investors ooh, participate in the deal. So you have the capital was raised in this back at once plus the capital that comes from the pipe. And together, they formed the full deal that gets announced and the pipe. Allows you to have a much higher quality group of investors that add add to the value of the of the of the total offering. So when you get to select them so that is like the original IPO process. It's sort of like skimming the cream door number one you get to say, Hey, I, want fidelity I want Goldman I want this bank for whatever reason. Our Board was the allocation committee. We literally were super oversubscribed in we sat down and said this guy and this guy and this Gal in this fund and that fund law in. Those are the folks that you can actually give him a meaningful position so that they could build a. A long long term position in the company and that that's a unique feature of this of this approach. That's yet another benefit. Now tell me about the timeframe because I have been researching this. Because I have been approached. Concerning your advice. To spec what I do as an angel investor with the syndicate, DOT COM and I. Think. It's a brilliant idea but I'm GonNa put that aside my personal consultation with the until we get to the end but what is the timeframe from when Leo contact you and you're like, okay, here we go. Leo This is a big name I'm sure everybody else on the top this contacted you from what he contacts you to Wednesday you know August twenty six when this thing is announced what's timeframe like? So before you do any of this. You you spend two years making sure that your company's public ready. Ran To find what that means public ready means what. I. Mean. You have to have PCA OBE compliant financials. You have to have your audit's done just like a regular cup company going public all that work needs to happen. You can't just flip a switch and then you're like. I mean you have a significant mental? We're really lucky our finance team had done multiple IPO's before they have been through the ringer they have public accounting background. So they know what they're doing and so that that is a one of the first requirements is that you're ready to go otherwise you know. So that's one part, and then you spend some time selecting back instead of use not like Leo calls you it. It doesn't work like venture. It's you sort of select the an underwriter and then once you have an underwriter. In you want somebody has experienced in the sector just like going through an IPO. Then you you will actually do a process where you both talked to a bunch of. Facts that may be. A good fit to your process, and this is where it gets interesting. The specs. WanNa continue to see deals nonstop and they haven't done. They have to, they have to do the diligence. But at the same time. They're doing to diligence or multiple companies. There are search vehicle rights. So their job is to not be exclusive with anybody till the last minute. So one of the risk of doing us back deal is that you can get stock in a false positive or false negative situation. Were you waste a lot of time with one thing and then like they leave your in the altar? Not a so so that is That's pretty risky for a company. Right you're doing you gotTa Lock Up Look Yourself Up, and you have to have the capability like knock end up in a bad process. and so You know you work with a bank that it's good. That will you go with a number of you'll be present to a number of fresh. Do you get your your your story straight and then you go present number of of Facts and then you find somebody that you have a you have a meeting of the minds with, and then once you let part of the process you you have to agree to go to the pike market which is. The the rest of their financing part of the process, and that is something that at that point. You you WanNa have agreed on what the deal is with with this back and. Wants to have a deal signed a Nilo. I sign respect than you go to the Pike Market and you present your story for several weeks. So you know maybe three or four four months of process. So we're talking about maybe. Fifty sixty seventy percent less time than door number one. That's misnomer. It's not less time. Because has no roadshow right now you do have you do the roadshow show is with the pipe. So if you didn't have the pipe and you just did back, then it would be saving time. But if you do the pipe, we've basically added back the roadshow. while. You have it's actually more work. So you have to I, you do your your Baker, the underwriter. Then you do the big for this pack God in you partner with us back Daniel do the roadshow. But then after you announce, you have to do the SEC work. Let s four in a in a IPO. You do something the next one in that it takes a long time to prepare it, and here you have to write an s four inviolate and do the comments process all that that just as much work than one, but you're doing it after the announcement supposed to be. For the Roach. So overall, this is not for like i. mean this is work. It's okay. So it may be ready at being the same amount of work as door number one, which would lead you to the question. If. All things are equal although bill gurley seemed to feel that store number three, the SPAC was faster but I'm going to put that aside right now because this may be you know your mileage may vary kind of situation. Why picked number three back over door number one traditional. If at the same time. Yeah. You're definitely underpricing is a real thing and then the you're doing the s four process after the announcement. So, there is some I mean you're trading one thing for it. It is GonNa take you a good six months. No matter what I mean people say that it's faster it's maybe maybe faster but but the it's work which is almost painful. Is One more painful than the other I mean I understand one feels more fair and for a founder, this is very important I mean. In my mind founders who built great companies have a a North Star of when in business of things need to be fair for all parties and I think the resentment that's built up around door number one is the unfairness of it. So clearly, door number three and number to fill much more fair than door number one I mean I think there's not there's nothing unfair about December one derr number one is a great process if you if you can do it but you know the market what people don't market windows not open all the time. and. You can do something sometimes in other things, other times and just like there. Is, there's an open market when they're not respects it wasn't available last year and the it you know obviously math open that window with Virgin Galactic Wide Open for for the whole market. So the entire market should thank him. he is a huge innovator in finance and Kinda walks on water so I would say he definitely. Created a market and a lot of a lot of. Folks. In fact, space have kind of the benefited from from his work I would say Bill Gurley wasn't talking about six months ago. Right? You know we we all sat at the poker table together and he he was a big fan of the direct listing but I think he. Seeds. Now less than any rails better than leaving money on the table and he's There's no there's no doubt in my mind and I have no inside information here even though we're trying. To something wrong with there's nothing wrong with leaving money table that sometimes I feel I feel great process to they're all have worked on people's there is a lot of ups and downs with this process. I mean know the the it's a high stakes negotiation process with with this back sponsor and they went on the during the pipe. Know. It like in the draft Kingston, sample might have direct information as minder sending us that. They had a difficult time with the pipe negotiation. Folks colluded on them lower price of the deal, and then even after that happened the deal run up to you know significant Boom after the after the deal has been done. So it. These are, let's say, but now there's more options ask. So the fact that there's more options equals better. And you have more control of your life in fact process for sure how Well I feel like in the IPO process. Because the window for IPO, is is somewhat. you know in a fast was montgomery securities in Hambrecht and Quist Robbie Stevens in all these specialized small company underwriters that were credible ways for a company to get public and. As was consolidation on the bank side, the rules kept going at. Now you have to have a billion dollar market cap I like X. X. Revenue for this that, and it's made such a small universe of. Folks that actually can get through that really convent. It's a a You know it's it's what you describing that. You know there's less public companies today they were a decade ago when. His. It's a shame that that you know retail investors can't get into Microsoft the way they did in nineteen, eighty six where they microsoft or Google or. Google I mean people don't for Google. Amazon, these companies, the I mean the fact that Uber took. So long you know with ten billion in revenue AIRBNB is taking for AIRBNB sake taken. So goddamn long that they've got options expiring nobody ever thought that would become a situation. semes-. it is You know I think that the you have other other situations that that. There's sort of vilification of being a public company making it sound like it's it's an incredibly, I mean some founders. Don't want to do it just from the perception of. They don't really know what they don't know, but the I mean, it's like everything else. You've got to deliver your numbers and make your quarters execute properly and If you build a good business, you can raise money in a private market. If you build a good Mrs, you should be able to public. In. So this fear of scrutiny. I this next this next generation in their fear of scrutiny spacey, our generation the Gen xers have this fear of like. Scrutiny I think this comes from the fact that all of these. you know nontraditional player set out take a hundred million. I'll take two hundred and fifty million Yuri Milner being one of the first. You, know Masayoshi Sun coming in a lot of folks started dipping down into the venture space and saying you know what I kind of made the joke on CNBC like just. You know like, muscle. IPO. You. But we see that sometimes that doesn't exactly put enough sunlight on the company I e we work. So what you're telling me is That scrutiny that disciplined makes for better companies cracked. I think so yeah. It. It is a, IT IS A. I think that the reason we had this late stage boom was you know I it? You know you had less banks less Let's to get out. When there was consolidation in the banking side in surveys, Oxley in or things that made it more difficult to be public, and then that led to you know the exit being more. Kind of package than than high price than when that started happening you had kind of A. Void that got filled by people like Massino folks that this sort of late stage when it keep your Unicorn forever situation and that is there's a benefit to that. But I, think. We've sort of rob the the retail investor, the public, the ability to get into growth. High Growth Stocks I. Agree One, hundred percent and I also think you have if you have more choices if the robinhood trader full disclosure were invested in them Robin as well. Maybe that'll be the fourth or fifth year and I don't have any bad I I remember going to a meeting with Blad in like in ninety two thousand. Seventeen law and he was he showed up at this meeting where everybody's like suited how can should I be like short shorts the Nicer To, Tesla short shirts with the logo the greatest trump. But it would be great for the Robin Hood investor to be able to say, Hey, here's a company. Called AIRBNB, and it's worth four billion and I stayed in one or here's this company Lincoln and it's you know I hired somebody off of it or my cousin is driving for lift and my other my brother is doing post mates, I I. Think I would like to buy ten shares of that and buy those shares when the company's at two, three, four, billion, not twenty, thirty, forty, billion, and be and be able to bag ten X. The retail investors should be able to bag ten X. You know and it's unfair that like you know the they don't have that opportunity and we were coming up in the industry. I what was the benchmark back in the day fifty one, hundred, million in revenue ego public something that. If if you know, I think fifty to one hundred. Yeah, we took I mean I was in investor Through through My Michael's Spock, my partner Michael. Had backed a company called demand wear that we ended up to to salesforce for like close to three billion. But we were the series investor in that business and took public in like forty something million in revenue, and it was a great. Running up built a great public business. But IT'S A. You know you gotTa have more of those successes I think. People should be able to take risk I. mean the the idea that the only bet you can make in the stock market is on Amazon and apple and Disney, which are fantastic companies but we need more innovation we need to have I would love to see ten times as many companies go public and let the public make some bets and I'm using the word bet here let's let's face it. You know we're we're taking risk Hopefully, it's an intelligent bet but let let let the average the average Joe Average Jane get in there and in place one hundred dollar bad on Uber in year one I'm sorry now you're one you're five you know your four instead of your ten. I would like to be able to take more risk Jason a year five for Uber. indisputed. Mazzarella Geneva, it's like they they. They deserve public when they were five years old. I don't know why I mean this is more of a travis. Travis didn't want to do you know him better. Yeah. But I think, I think a lot of it was. Out, in, better for Travis to answer his thinking on it but I think at that time. Things were going so unbelievably well that going public would mean showing people the playbook before they had reached all the markets and bad to me made sense. If you think that you have a clear path to a hundred, billion, two, hundred, fifty, billion dollar company over your cards it's like it's like in poker you're you know you flop a sad and you're like look I got a set of tans and the other person's. Got To you know the other person's on a flush straight draw all of a sudden. You may be gay people a little too much information and they can make maybe chase it. Maybe they'll chase the straight chase the flush, and you you created a competitor and so I think that reason is one what happens now for shareholders of desktop battle I, e myself when do I find out that? I have. My shares and what their prices at a my locked up just technically what what happens to you know employees who shares how does that all happen in fact, it's just the same as a public company. That's. Ship it to me she shares. There's a conversion ratio from shares of one to the other and In our case, we had a not brown. Meaning the. which would yet the price of which are deal is higher than the last financing? Yeah, it was good and then You know employees investors have a lockup, which is a fair thing for the public markets yeah. Me Please lock me up for ten years in any rick full up star up I mean I still have around happening guber. Jason if you look at our spaces be compounding for twenty years at twenty percent and then the next the last three years started compiling a twenty five percent than it project to compound this decade at twenty, five percent. So in in our particular market, it was twelve billion dollars. Last year projected to be a hundred and forty, six billion by the end of the decade, and I'm not. For sure it's a it's a better market to be end than like I don't know some public utility thing it's like a Or some energy. something. Yeah. Think Growth Growth Area and they industry. Obviously, it's technology and you know with acknowledged comes up shine and all these things. But but I think that if you're the disruptor in technology market that's going to grow eleven x and a decade, it's a great area T to. I think every venture firm is going to. Basically look at their portfolio and say, we're going to create a SPEC department. And we're just GONNA every year fire office back with our LP's and. Wants to join the Party and you'll see sequoia have like every year sequoia will launch every six months sequoia a benchmark. Just, like timoth has no, you don't think. Is it challenge different too much work. I don't believe that you're allowed to know what you're GonNa Choir, before you create a vehicle, no, you're not allowed to know you can have a short list and. It's it's complicated. The economics. There's enough specs in the market that you could actually negotiate the promote economics and that's what I heard. What is the promote Ryan 'cause I know chimps put a lot of his own money and but putting off the side. Promoter get. I was told by somebody who came to me about was I wanted to sell me on starting back myself they said it's like five to ten million dollars to set up a SPEC. I. Don't know if that's true or not. But that's what I heard I mean I it's all dependent it's getting adventure you have Kerry have twenty percent. Venture Fund I think that twenty percent. is the promote in APP in fact. So the the sponsor makes up percents actually is usually not one person. It's like a whole team of people and write it. There's work and into ride, and so if they were to put in. A hundred million, they get twenty percent of whatever that grows into. So one hundred, million, where to grow into one point one, billion, you take out the original hundred million and the twenty percent of the billion dollar. Hundred million? No no no no no. No He's not as good as venture not as good as they get five percent. What are they know? They get twenty percent of the hundred million In shares. In Equity Dilution of the company they're acquired Got It. So they would that if they put one hundred million and get twenty million shares if it ten access, they get two, hundred million or the value of those shares between twenty million, that's actually more alignment right? That's that's good alignment for them I mean yeah but think about it. So twenty million dollar fee. So there's some expense to it. So like the benefit here is you got added dilution, right. So you you have to make up for it and you can make with a higher price or you can make up for it with a I mean it's not it's not a straightforward in an IPO. You don't have that dilution and you don't have a new board member. So you have to those are trade-offs and in in our particular case We you know we felt like like it would be a huge asset to the company to have Leo. Yes Ms. It's his he's he's alleged ended and I think. We were You know that that promote economic something that can be negotiated they're different aspects of it can be negotiated. It's not like Jamaa is in need of a quick hit. A couple of milly. He wants to go along. You know he's he's looking to go long. He's not trying to. That's my guest I. Don't I haven't asked him it be uncouth to ask him directly I mean he's he's You know I I don't know the economics of IPO. The other two or a I mean I think. But I think he's a major investor in those companies. So he's made actually skin in the game major backer. Totally. That's what I think is important skin in the game you know when people see me doing my syndicates, they know that I'm a certain percentage of my funds and that my funds are putting money in. So we're not just you know like there are some people who are doing. Syndicates in the early days of angels who are like putting in two K. and raising five hundred K. and people are like as the right ratio of skin in the game you know just you know it's it's definitely an open discussion I mean obviously people can do that. You may have seen the accreditation laws are Evolving now to the point at which the SEC is now going allow Let's say, not credit investors to have a path to becoming sophisticated I e accredited. What do you think that will have what impact will that have on the the Star Game I mean I think most people I ain't going vast. Are. Never met a non accredited angel investor yet and but I think that that I know you're a huge believer and I remember reading your book you. I. Think it's a I. It'd be awesome for for a broader. Part of market to be able to host to early stage investing so. Just a great way to learn right like if you're the HR person. Yeah Sonesta in a way that it's it is you know The problem is early stage investing is quite quite risky. So yeah, eight hundred chance of zero, ninety percent chance of Azero beat be prepared. So you need to hit like I. Think Somewhere in the twenty thirty forty range is what most people tell me in of diversification to have a chance at an and that's it s a chance of an outlier and what I what I'm proposing. am I mean people have seen publicly have been talking to the SEC publicly on twitter about this I'm proposing that my Angel University course and my buck be a path to, and this was my my end game three years ago and why I wrote the book is I want the buck plus the course, the three hour course, which is free I. Just make a hundred autonation to charity or proceeds go to charity everybody knows the rules. and. So my idea is we create a course and then do a twenty five question certification just like when you go by pistol you to take a gun certification answer twenty, five questions about like pistol. This would be amazing. If we could do that and then I think caps are the solution. So just like when we sell guns, we say, Hey, you can only have this many The magazine can have this many bullets in it. I'm proposing a similar idea. For. Early stage investors, which is you can make up to five percent of whatever was on the the average of your last two. Tax Filings. So let's say you made seventy five, thousand dollars a year for the last two years you could do five percent of that you. See can put thirty, seven hundred whatever rounded up for thousand dollars. Maybe it's ten percent. Let's people's money. But when you go to a casino in Vegas or you go to your local bookie and you do you know a cash based bat at your bar, which everybody's doing anyway, we all know that. Nobody's saying, can I see your tax return and you float this bat or is this going to be the next six weeks of your salary and you know I'm going to send a guy? You know to to pick up the money. You know like nobody's doing that I I say, let them invest but then put it on the syndicate leads. To get a confirmation with them where they say I made this money the last two years. I. Sign off that I'm you know my salary is eighty thousand dollars and we say great eighty thousand dollars. You agree that you will not invest more than eight thousand dollars in startups a year, and you agree that you'll do no more than you'll have some diversification or just something it would be like if you went into a Vegas Casino and went into the high roller suite and they were like, do you belong in the high roller? Suite 'cause it's five thousand, a hand for black are you sure you should be sitting at this table? In playing four hands of Blackjack what your twenty gay probably not. Yeah, it's it's hard. I mean. I'm I'm more a little more limited theory and from the view that people should be able to invest in what they want to invest in I. Think. and not have rules that prevent them from investing in things that mean if you want to start a company and you WANNA bet but everybody's different. I think that you know probably healthy for the market to have some some limits. I haven't thought about about you know what? What's the right thing to do I remember Terry to the problem with our libertarian view. Is that there are bad actors. And You know in in the in a world filled in a world filled with bad actors. Hi M. concerned. 'cause I've watched people I know who are complete utter dip shits. Trying to sell angel investing scams. And these idiots who have never literally this. Idiot I'm not gonNA mention his name is talking about I. Kid you not rick. What the angel investors in. Uber made in selling like a three thousand dollar angel investing course. That person didn't invest. He basically took my book. He took my track record and made a for coca. Crazy. You know money-making scam for three thousand dollars in pay like five hundred. Now than they tried to the three thousand if you're that God damn rich number one don't write on my co tells a my investments. And then number two. If you've made that much money, why are you trying to scam Ya Ya? You know young kids had three thousand dollars like all these lame people I, my angel the book is nine dollars everything I learned in the first you know whatever seventy years of angel investing nine dollars, and then the course is one hundred dollars all the proceeds go to charity. Like, anybody who's rich WHO's trying to sell you on a book or a scam or a thousand or three thousand dollars course on how to get rich is by definition not rich because they need the money from new. Hampshire enemy GONNA tangent wreck but you're my friend. It's frustrating for me when I see people doing this bad stuff. Just, wrapping up thank you for including me on the ride with. How. Great would it have been? If Dine you've specs were around A. Dine my Lord well, actually I. I really think that than could have been public I. I've always told Kyle Jeremy and the rest of the team, but you know they. Offer they got a offer and they're part of Oracle and it's great. That was a fantastic exit for everybody and. So makes me everybody everybody There's nothing wrong with them and there's there's A. It's a fool I mean everyone. Look. At. Different points in life like where we're talking about people cashing their chips in in different ways at different moments in their lives. And that was a long journey but I. Think one of the things that we need to think about it the United States, especially, when it comes to finance is that we've created so much goddamn regulation and we made this also complex and we've got this patriarchal. Like, we're going to treat everybody like babies with you know the the the less money you make the more we treat you like a baby unless access, we give you to wealth creation devices is just bonkers. And then this is what's creating this. A big part of the tension is well, I can't get in on the deals that in a investor in you know in the early part of our careers you and I could not have invested in the companies were investing in building now. And that's just unfair. We should fair let everybody have access to these companies and I'm really glad that you went public because I think it's You know you're just a tremendous entrepreneur and. The fact that you didn't wait another five years like you're doing it. I wouldn't say you're doing it. You're in your five or get into your five. That's what we used to do in this town right five years seemed to be the time to do it. So you're just doing it like we used to do congratulations. Thank you for coming on. And and if I see you I know that you know there's you have zero budget constraints to where you stay if I see you in the bay area and it's not my house, I'm coming picking you up the four seasons Saint Regis. You you tell I watch making a new a making a new smoked. Pork belly along with the Brisket, it's a Nice Combo. So next time you're in town Calico away I don't say remember your dad is the one who taught me how to do barbecue. So I had no idea what I was doing Dad did teach you. That's right. That's right. I think when we were in. Nantucket right. Yeah I'm thinking about getting a place in Nantucket. Because starring US yeah. Yeah. Yeah I just I I like the East Coast. East. Coast, Miss, my East Coast Vibe when I'm on Nantucket, I never been so relaxed in my life I'd like getting a jeep and I like going off road. People don't know you can do this. Now. Do you have the bachelor off road with your jeep or no? Yet just through the. Driving I. Love It. I love driving out. What's that point you drive out to a great point? Drove out there. Jeremy I think that day I don't know if. You come on that with. Jared. We drove the GPS all the way out to the lighthouse and the C. Nines were tracking us the whole time and what you drive out to that point, and it takes that he's half an hour to get to the end of the point. I'd say it's a big it's a long trip and John Lund and you and you it's fun and at that you have to lower the air pressure on your tires seeding get stuck in the sand I gotta get mine get myself when I'm jeep. Wrangler Zeman that that was one of was peak experience. I have to say and you know much love to the family and Thank you for the friendship over the years for including the ride and Your. Many more deals to come. All right. I. Love You Rick Congratulations for sincerely. All right. We'll see you all next time on this week. Stars bye bye.

Rick Fulham Bill Gurley founder spotify partner Flavio SEC US D. Printing K. L. A. New Hampshire twitter Leo Henry BMW CLEO DOT Daniel ECK Dine D. Y. Wyan Dot
Best of This Week in Startups: Week of September 7th, 2020

This Week in Startups

19:32 min | 2 months ago

Best of This Week in Startups: Week of September 7th, 2020

"Three D. Printing what does Jake Aldo about three thing? I know nothing all I know is that rick full up is one of the Great Human Beings I've met in my life. As a human being has technologist and as a leader of companies and I am so delighted to have my good friend, Rick Fill up on the program to talk about desktop metal. Because Wreck. Just S- packed. Desktop metal when did people start approaching you about this back? When did you and then how did you make the decision to to pick us back and explain to people just generally what is this back like just like expand the first two processes. So herb. Is Special Purpose Acquisition Company and it's a model where somebody. They call it a promoter or or a you know. Manager. The manager of a SPAC? Yeah. We'll go out and raise capital and build a build the a strategy around I didn't and go and find a company or they can go in a choir after the the stack is a public realistic company. So I, you raise capital, you put enough trust you pay Some small interests return to to those investors and in that that manager will go out in search for a period of a year or two years or whatever period is he'll go search for a company and so that there's approximately thirty billion dollars worth of capital in the market right now. An increase from last year an increase from the year before It's been a while since this has existed in the past the people that. Did back. Race does Fakher also known as a blank check company. There were quite rare and and You didn't see. You didn't see high quality folks attached to them. What's really changed is since math got involved, he has raised the quality of the people that are doing it and you have people. Now that are very high quality managers are. Executing the strategies you've got people like marks data dragonair was extremely high quality The person you have bill bill is that his name up bill ackman is very been very successful his you've got the. Range of very successful folks that are. Put together these. Roger Freight in who is the vice. Chairman Honeywell is. Back, and there's there's. A pull up a chart right now should we? We actually have a chart of this? The number of spags created now is We had a big debt obviously after the financial crisis, but now we're at a peak. Nick is that eighty-one their? eighty-one specs this year have been created and we're only halfway through the year. So I'M GONNA. Assume that's going to double I don't know is that is that twenty what you're at their neck set two thousand eighteen. That's twenty twenty with eighty one. So this thing is going to get more momentum and probably ends the year over one, hundred, twenty I'm going to guess right now there's one hundred ten back for for deals and La The. The reality is that around him, you know there are specific to a segment and you gotta find somebody that is a matchmaking process. So you'll get a board member with it. In our case, we're really lucky to have a partner Leo Henry. He was the fellow that Leo history when he did land systems back in the day. Actually he he did TCI and the broadband and. Henry yes. Yes. Yes. Sorry. I was thinking about another one Leo Spiegel. was sorry way there's a lot of Leo's going around those industry. So that's fantastic. So you find high quality manager he says, I want to be involved and he brings cash in his back whatever's in the trust and so now it's not like an IPO. Trust, the cash has to sticking the trust the people that are investors in this back after like the you know they have a proxy boat ride before the mergers flows and in in order to back up the dealing kiss redemptions you race what's called a pipe which investment in Public Antiquity Equity Equity? Yeah. So. that. That is. Where you get the mutual funds in a long only investors. Participate in the deal so you have the capital was raised in the SPEC at once plus the capital that comes from the pipe. And together, they form the full deal that gets announced and the pipe allows you to have a much higher quality group of investors that add to the value of the of the total offering so and you get to select them. So that is like the original IPO process. It's sort of like skimming the cream of door number one you get to say, Hey, I want fidelity I want I want this bank for whatever reason. Our. Board was the allocation committee. We literally had were super oversubscribed in we sat down and said this guy in this guy and this Gal in this fund and that fund. And Those are the folks that. Can actually give him a a meaningful position so that they could build a a A longer longer position in the company of that. That's a unique feature of this of this approach. That's yet another benefit. Our guest today spent five years at Apple and one hundred, fifty days in world warcraft I kid you not. If you have all the mittens and may even be more now, we'll find out. And he worked. In visual design at Apple On the team and led the design team for Apple TV actually. So here a little bit about that, and his company is Caffeine TV. He's a lifelong hacker from down under welcome to the PODCAST and Puran. Thank you Jason. I'm really excited to chat with you today really appreciate it. What did you learn inside of Apple? What makes that company when you look back on your five years because I know you there for four years and they they actually give you credit for that year of when you started child which I thought was interesting to me. It's the five year. Mark is pretty special to give you that Nice certificate signed by Steve. Jobs for I don't know if you could get jobs would have passed on at that time. He asked him hey, he had pasta unfortunately. So yeah mine's from Tim Yeah. We era when he passed. Or right after just right off the yeah. Yeah. You remember where you are when you heard the news. I do actually I was. So trump was operating out of It's almost a garage. It wasn't a garage but almost Garrett in San Francisco just down the road from where twitter is today and I got the news and I actually burst into tears I was. Physically I was really upset about it as I'm sure many many many people. What what was it that for you? As a kid from Australia who got into coding that? What did he mean to you? What did his? His wife's work mean to you I think that. He was somebody really stood for building something really really really really really great that he and the team believed in like I would not gonNa just sorta copy or the status bar but like really just hyper passionate and hyper believed that they were going to do something. Just just beyond what we're saying in the Pasta and this guys like Walt Disney is like a few people like that. That are real heroes to me for Shaw and. And I you know I love that. Find it super inspiring, and there's just a lot to learn and. Yeah. That's that's kind of would admit to me. Yeah. The conviction level and the extreme pursuit of excellence. You know like we're gonNA paint the back of the fence you know kind of that. He talked about like the inside that you don't see is going to be as good as the outside. It was a level of determination for excellence that you just don't see right everybody's trying to compromise. He was just said non compromising individual. You never got to meet him in person I take. Now, I didn't. Yeah, super intense like when you were in his aura. Like you just walked up to me at a conference, the D Congresswoman Point Ages looked at me. He saw my badge and he goes I reading it every day. It's my favorite blog. And it's just like. He had a he had a certain Tennessee to him, and then one time I said to you. Now Steal I have a question for you why? Why doesn't the IPAD play the ipod play like short videos like you can put like bishop show or like SNL videos on it? And you look me directly in the eyes he said Jason. Nobody wants to look at postage-sized Amphibia. Steve a kind of word like if it was just like a short skit of like an SNL thing I think people would watch music video and he's like, Jason? Nobody wants to watch. A post choice video and I just said, you know what you're right what happened to later Video I thought. Not The guy you want to play poker because I was so convinced I was an idiot at that moment. I was so young I just thought to myself God I'm an idiot I just said something stupid Steve Jobs. He's going to become an idiot and like I'm a confident guy but it. Made me question my own Northstar and then I start come out and I was like, Oh, I get it. He wanted to keep that so close to the vest. But you've got to work on Apple TV and you got to watch. Eddie to do his work. And they even had you. Like, run a design team. So what's What's the magic at Apple? Around design like what a somebody who was good at design already. Today. Make you a better designer and if so how and what is it about their philosophy that results in such extraordinary products products that you instantly know our apple products? Yes. So I I think that. You know there's a very, very strong culture there of everybody wanting to be in the details and everybody wanting to make it simple and everybody wanting to make clear and everybody wanting to make it understandable and very human and ultimately something just really special FA customers. And when you've got like a whole culture and company at everybody's kind of in that that mindset in tiny whatever they're working on. The design team plays a really. Special role in all of that, they're the ones that are actually showing the pixels that are working on the pixels that are really getting into that user experience. And the expectation is that everybody's GonNa talk discuss and be involved at such fidelity and such a level that I've never seen it like that. Any anywhere else it was it was phenomenal. It was absolutely phenomenal. Yeah. How do they keep things under wraps so well? What is the conversation they have with you of like, Hey, secrecy is important because. It seems like everybody buys into it and when I was adding gadget, we get leaks from Motorola or you know just basically every company was like leak central and apple was like Fort Knox. Nobody gave it up the only way anything ever came out was like. Somebody in the supply chain would give us something once in a while like a leak but. How do they maintain that culture? Do you think well I think that? The the way in which Apple TV was done, and I can't speak for all of the different. Products there but not everybody knows about everything that's going on. Silo things, and and so the teams that have ownership over particular aspects of it. They really want to Keep it close. It's it's a secret and they're excited about it and got to tell you in fact, one of the things that. I believe somebody at Apple said to me early on when joining the company was that when apple ships new product, it's like it's like Christmas people. So excited to open the surprise and then somebody looked just like so you don't want to ruin Christmas do. Christmas everybody. Great. Great. Sense Yeah. What everybody's They're just super excited to keep things a secret and enjoy the process of ultimately figure out what is the absolute coolest. Most amazing thing we could do for a customer. And that's kind of in the you know there's a lot that goes into making that a lot of. Things that have to happen and come together to to to deliver on that execute aren't but that's the culture's really in the DNA there. It's Times right now. And I wanted to focus in on an episode here of this startup says we're all going through this. Take, one of the people who I've gotten to know over my career as someone who's a calming force super insightful, and exceptional at running organizations and that man is end. Lori and he is the CEO of Survey Monkey. You've been a big proponent before anybody else. I think of diversity inclusion on a corporate level new famously got Serena Williams to join the board. And have really championed trying to to get more women and people of Color. Involved in leadership positions what have you learned on that multi year journey and leadership position you've had in the industry in this regard in terms of best practices of how to make people feel included and how to draw talent to your company because. A lot of people say and the cynical thing I hear is, Hey, listen there is a very small population of people. Available for some of these job roles and now we're all competing for them because we all want statistics to change overnight. But we hear this pipeline problem I'm using that in quotes is there a pipeline problem is that s and then how do you actually create the environment that draws people in wants a diverse workforce to actually show up as opposed to trying to convince them to show up. Well. Thanks for the question and thanks for the good words. So first off, there is fundamentally not pipeline problem. Okay. Why did you say there is why is that like the first thing you hear and people won't say publicly but we hear it constantly I didn't get any applications for my CTO position from a black female or my director of caffeine. Any more Latino executives who have five years and Sasso whatever easy answer it's an easy answer that's. White executives have networks that lack diversity right, and so you host a party and all of a sudden you have ninety white people party one black person, and then when you go to recruit a black engineer, you gotTa can't find black engineer we'll know shit, you don't have the network. So it's not a pipeline issue, it's your challenge and by challenge, and that is on us to recognize that the reason we have that challenge is there is stem racism reason, venture capital and private equity and technology companies are dominated by white men is because there is a stomach racism in the system it's not an accident at the fifth generation kid from jail the job it's not that he is just way more talented than the black woman from Alabama it's just that he's been given every advantage in life and there's some real true to born on third base. So it's on especially the white allies who are in positions of power with networks as big as yours or capital bases or companies to find what are the things that I can do personally, where do I have power? Where do I have a voice products capital influenced to change the game because? Opportunity is not equally distributed. Talent is and we know this so. By, challenge in one of the things we did early with the say, Hey, let's make our board of directors one where when you look at their faces on the screen, you're proud to say you work at that company. You're proud to say our CEO gives a shit about providing an environment that is diverse where there's equity and inclusivity is a top priority and what I found is that employees want this I wanted this when I wasn't you know a C. Suite executive I wanted a place that. Where people were treated fairly where you know the company was decidedly anti-racist and we have a long way to go I am not. Taking a victory lap by any stretch we are not diverse enough. We do not have enough black and Brown people in positions of power but we're taking every step. We can with our pay and promotion practices how are hiring much I spend as much time and money on this as I do on our evaluating products or hitting our sales goals and my my message out to every. Every CEO out there is like. You're a CEO you have influenced with your board if not, they're going to bounty from the job. So take this opportunity to say I, want our board of directors. To be diverse I don't want five white male venture capitalists on our board today Kudos to our friend. Braggers Cassidy for launching the board forty two companies including serving monkey committed to putting at least one black member on the board of directors and I think issues like this. Today he was literally the day we're taping. He was on CNBC all morning talking about it explain what that project is one more time. So we all know it. It's simple. Brad is a very celebrated investors, billions of dollars under management, his twelve year old. George Fluid was merged. Dad, what are you doing about this? And brats got a lot of influence on boards like united. Another's got rich Barton from zillow and me and forty plus other people. To, commit to put at least one black person on their board of directors and if you look I think in the P. Five, hundred, one, hundred, eighty, seven companies. We're the all white. Hundred Eighty seven of the fortune five hundred. So we're talking thirty, six, percent thirty, seven percent one in three is all white check check my math there but it's. Actually reasonably true to me. It's an absurd percentage out, and if you think about I, mean you don't even have a pipeline issue here like this is really just if you're a white CEO and you don't have any person of color on your board, you've got to ask yourself. What do I need to do to make this a priority? Is it important to employees? Yes I guarantee you. It's important to your employees an especially your employees who are black and Brown is it important to our customers? Well should be. Is there a shareholder blocking you? There's just no excuse from making this. A mandate that you can deliver on and there is no pipeline challenge. There are terrific candidates out there. We have Erica jeans first black woman to be dean of a Ivy League schools. She's the new dean of warden. And then Serena Williams who is going to be the all-time winningest athlete in the world. And their incredible influencers on our board you know they are bringing so much value and diversity and perspective judgment and insight. Across a whole number of areas. So we've been a huge beneficiary. Serena will text recruit. We know the minute I asked her to. Erica is in the world's most interesting conversations and there's so many incredible folks who are available to put on your board who can add a ton of value. It's just this is one of those challenges that should get a ton of momentum and I'm excited to see what's going to happen.

Apple CEO director Jason Serena Williams Steve Jobs rick caffeine bill ackman Special Purpose Acquisition Co Tim Yeah bill bill Jake Aldo Fakher Leo Henry Leo Walt Disney Honeywell
#80 | All About The Dogs with Rick Affuso  Project Upland Podcast

Project Upland Podcast

1:04:01 hr | 1 year ago

#80 | All About The Dogs with Rick Affuso Project Upland Podcast

"Welcome to the project. Upland podcast where we discussed all things upland hunting. We plan to take you into some of our. Our favorite bird covers as we talked to the people that aren't them and the organizations that support loss of breakdown. The dogs guns and gear used to pursue them and of course we'll share the stories stories. It celebrate this American tradition. One of those things you do that that feels times. My Dad brought home our first Britney when I was about ten nine years old the red gods are calling and I'm awesome. Are you store. This is the project the podcast presented by. onyx of your host Nick Larson and on this episode. It's American Britney's knob that testing trialing and more with rick a few so welcome to the show for episode number eight Eh Eh. The project of podcasts is presented by onyx hunt creators of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. I'm downloading offline maps. Again today Eh. Because tomorrow I'm headed girls camp for the weekend and you never quite know where you might end up when you bird hunting. So it's best to be prepared and download your maps apps with hunt ahead of time and for a limited time probably your last chance reminder here on the product up and podcasts head over to roughed dot org are you. FDD DOT ORG and check out the membership. Drive that the rough Grou- society has gone on right now. KILLER UPLAND AF t-shirt plus a free free twelve months description to annex at the sixty dollar auto renewal level. That's a lot of value even for sixty dollars plus you're getting your rgs membership supporting a great. Because an you're going to get four issues of covers magazine. Need I say more I think not head over to roughed dot org. The project dubbed Podcast is also brought to you by our friends at Pineridge grouse camp. You haven't experienced growls camp until you've experienced it at Pine Ridge. October is the time to be at Pinehurst grouse camp and I know everybody over there having a blast if you missed it this year check it out for next year head over to Pineridge grouse Camp Dot Com and in touch with them today and by Dr Callers for over thirty years. Dr Has collaborated with industry professionals to create class leading tools for ecology training GPS tracking and more to support bird dog owners in developing top notch. Watchdog find out more about them and the rest of their products visiting Dr Dot Com and by eukanuba premium performance. Dog Food Feed my dog Hartley the five year old English setter are you can move a premium performance dog food about six months now probably maybe a little bit more than that but this is the first hunting season on it and I just had him into the vet yesterday for regular checkup. His weight was down about a half a pound for nine and a half policies usually somewhere between fifty and fifty one so I was really impressed with that. We've been hunting in a lot. Hartley's been getting a lot of the workload as he's my only dog and he's been maintaining his weight and performance very well all things considered so I've been extremely really happy with his performance on you can have a premium performance dog food. And if you're in the market for a new food or look into something different I suggest you check out. eukanuba premium performance dog food while visiting EUKANUBA DOT COM and by gum leaf. USA high-quality handcrafted premium rubber boots that. Stand the test of time time. I'm deep into my third season. gummy vikings they honestly don't feel much different than the first day I put them on. There's very little break in. Required the rubbers pliable yet the neoprene lining gives it a stiffness that provides just enough support for me at least where I don't feel like I'm walking around in a flimsy rubber boot. It's really a great great great setup for the grouse woods. It's been extremely wet this year as it often is and my feet are dry and comfortable all season long and this time of year is when the gum leaves really really start to shine when the temperature dips down neoprene lining provides a little bit of installation. So you gotTa Dry Foot you got a warm foot. It's really the perfect scenario for long hikes deep into the cover over during the prime time a bird hunting season check them out at USA DOT COM and use the Promo Code P up one zero. That'll get you ten percent off your gummy boots. And by Gordian sons outfitters when your boots are the proper trade. You never notice how slip breed is when you're hunting jacket features the right liner. Your Body. Temperature won't enter your mind when you're shooting. Invest allows total freedom of movement. You won't think twice about swinging through that quayle accordion sons. They want you to focus solely on the hunt. Not the performance of your gear. That's why the Gordon Family has personally curated the best in class gear from around the globe for their store find out more about the gear guides the expertise all they have to offer by visiting Gordy and sons Dot Com and finally by Dakota eighty-three Kennels Kennels built to last a lifetime. One piece wrote a mold design frame. Steel door everything. Union dog need for a safe and successful hunting trip. Check it out at Kota to eighty-three dot com all right this winter. The podcast giveaway Jeremy. More from over at dog bone hundred. Jeremy left us a review. You on the Itunes podcast at thank you Jeremy Product up and t shirt headed your way very soon. Anybody else listening could be next week's winner. All you have to do is make a meaningful contribution to the show no by leaving the podcast rating. Leave us a review subscribe to the podcast share. The podcast pollster. Send us a feedback. I guess suggestion. We'd love to hear from our listeners. Email Amihai at Nick Dot Larson at northlands collective dot com. All right here. We go right into today's show. This episode was recorded way back in August so apologies if it sounds a little bit dated but the information is still very high quality. My guest was excellent and the information pertains regardless of the time of year guest. Is Eric a few so Aka rick a few so he was featured in a project up in film all about the dogs and he made a significant contribution to our project and theology volume one kickstarter campaign way back when feels like forever ago. Now that we have the magazine up and running and everything else but rick has been a supporter ars. He's been a friend of ours. I got to meet him while I worked for the rough ground society and he's a bird dog man. He's an upland hunter. He's a supporter of conservation. He's one of us that's for danger. And he also knows that thing or two about training dogs especially his American Brittany's so tune in for lots of conversation about Brittany's dog training Nada and and much much more with my friend our guest today rick a few so rick here we go welcome to the project. Upland podcast how are you today. My friend Nick. How're you doing today? I'm doing well. Thank you and thank you for joining us on the project upland podcasts. Let's dive in right away. Rick why don't you put us on the map. Let us know where we are speaking to you from and we're on base whereas Kennel all that good stuff. I so on from Hudson Valley New York. Guess I'm about two hours north of Manhattan up off the Hudson River. Small Small town called Marlboro New York. And that's right. Do all my training with the dogs and have a small Kennel. Most of it's just you know my three Brittany's Adam training with and getting ready for juvenile invitatinal tests and September. Did you grow up in New York. Yes I grew up. where I'm living now Marlboro I was born and raised here here so a life lifelong spent in New England and for listeners. That perhaps the sound of your voice sounds a little bit familiar here. They they may be picking up on that from two locations number one you were in our one of our project films all about the dogs. It was an American Brittany pill really cool film. That was done couple years ago. When was Eric Yeah? It was two years ago. They J I think we spent a good day and a half of working in getting that hat filmed. There's a lot of fun. Basically we just Kinda went from scratch and now. Aj really didn't just sits train your dogs and see how it goes and that's what we did did did AJ have grim at the time where you showing him a thing or two about his first bird dog yes. Grim grim was my gosh. He might have been about a year. We did that and we did get nick grim on the ground and worked on a few birds which was a lot of fun so people have maybe seen that film if they have in they should check it out and we'll be sure to put that that link in the show notes for this episode but loyal listeners of the podcast may recall your voice from that film. There's a there's a line of you in the intro to the podcasts that people get to hear every single time let's skip it. That is rick but hopefully not too many people skit. But there's a line of you saying something like my dad brought home our first Britney and you know. Aj works his magic and cut it up and makes it makes it all sound cool. But you're in the intro to podcast. Yes I did I did start out at a very very young age with the Britney's and I did some training but I really got serious with the Britney's about fifteen years ago with haunt test. The KNOB to I'm on my fourth Britney Had A male Brittany. I started with serious with the training. We had to put him down last summer last July. And and I had him as the father. My female was the mother and I have a son and daughter right now that A male and female that were training for the KNOB invitational so probably run about you know the utility test you have to qualify with a prize wanting to get to the invitational and I've probably done about twelve utility all these tests between the Ford Brittany's I've I've worked and in twenty fourteen. I took two dogs to the invitational. I passed my female Oak. And Cody just missed. Just getting an invitation but it was. It was a lot of fun. It was all new to me but they did a nice job. I've read those dogs that following winter at ten puppies and I kept you. GotTa we're GonNa Talk Britney's we're GonNa Talk Navedo. We're GONNA talk testing. We'll talk quite a bit of that self. Do WanNa get a little bit of your origin story which again some of that is in the film all about the dogs. But I also WANNA WANNA to take a moment just to thank you rik because when we did it was a couple apple years ago now at least project up when did a kickstarter campaign to raise funds for the first printing of the project Upland Anthology legit was printed book and this was before the magazine aboard before everything else is kind of the first foray into print and of course we were I was I was involved on the side at that time. I wasn't even as as involved as am today but there was some obviously concerns about coming out in a digital world with a with a piece of print so we had to raise some MM funds to do that and you were one of the supporters and You know early on. You made it clear that you wanted to help us out and you could help us and you were willing to do that in any way he could could. So you supported us in one of those things was was getting you on the podcast to talk about a little bit and I just wanted to say thanks for being an early supporter we appreciate it. Yeah I I very much enjoyed working with Aj. I think we worked together three or four times a couple of grouse on there was some stuff done I must admit Aj. I think about three years years ago now and I was really impressed. Sow you know he kinda just got in the woods and work grouse and you know getting just amazing how he worked at film yard. Yeah no it was. It was a lot of fun you know helping out donating we had a lotta pictures in the ethnology and you know it was just it was good. Yeah what are your dogs was one of your dogs is on the cover. Isn't I. Don't have it here in front of me but I'm I'm picturing it on my mind and it's a Brittany that's my mail. Spruce he was Three dogs the book but spruce is on the cover and he's now cost us four and a half years old now have his sister and his his mom is nine years old now so we it all three of them in some of the photos. All right so Britney's came into your life. Perhaps well they were in your life before this but you said you got really into him about ten years ago. Let's rewind further back Rick Two intro to upland hunting an intro to bird dogs. What was that like for you? How did that go? So so I actually got into grouse-hunting about seven eight years ago. Okay just got into it. It became a passion. I joined our GS. We started a local chapter at Kingston actually built Sweden started to chapter and Under trip way chip is no longer with hard. Yes as you know and then I took over as president. I've been doing it about seven years now and prior to getting into the GROUSE and woodcock hunting. I was just guiding hunting joining preserve birds. You're I've been guiding it probably handle the different preserves around New York. Okay if that was seven or eight years ago did you already already. You already had your first dog. Oh Yeah Yeah I was. I was hunting cody. I got a senior senior hunter. On cody again. That's who I put down last summer. It just shy thirteen and I got a senior hunter on him. I got a senior on the oak against she's nine Yep and then I got into nod uh probably shortly after I got senior hunter on them and I just really enjoyed the knob to part of it. You know to work at the dogs. Dogs did well John. You don't see a lot of Britney's you know going to the invitation. You don't see a lot of utility prize ones and not that would put knees. I've got my dogs. Run the larger larger size my mail. Now that I have is almost fifty. Five pounds and females around forty five. So they're pretty good. Sized Brittany's are outside at standard there for the show enjoyed what they do hunting. We do some waterfowl hunting. All the upland stuff we can do guiding and just you know all around good great dogs really put a lot of time into yeah well. Listeners are going to get a taste of my lack of knowledge of a hunting dog and bird dog testing and training standards I think that's probably a good place jumping some uncertain that I'm not the only one that has questions around this but I'm of course familiar with Nafta probably more so than than just about anything else but when you're saying senior hunt hunter and master hundred that is ABC right AKC test. Okay so just tell me a little a bit about that. Treat me like I know nothing because that's pretty much how much I know about it so about. AKC haunt tests We started out with junior hunter with cody. That was my first experience with hunt test and a friend of mine. Dan Cordeiro who also has Britney's got me involved in it and Iran cody through senior ran. A couple of hunt test test master hunt tests with them was not successful. Then I got my female. She came out of Ronnie Smith Kennels at Oklahoma and that's Ronnie Smith is nephew to Delmer Smith and cousin to Rick Smith and Ronnie and his wife. Susanna Love Smith is where I got my female oak from and I followed there training system and method. I've probably been no about twenty some plus Smith seminars. Different parts of the country. It was got a lot of good the training work under Ronnie Reckon and even dumber Smith. Yeah I'm definitely GonNa ask you some questions about the smiths a little bit later in the podcast and the methodology. Because I don't think we've ever really dove deep on that stuff on the podcast so back to AKC hunt tests junior senior master. Tell me talk to me a little bit about the progression Russian of those tests. What might dog be asked to do or supposed to do at each of those levels and you don't have to go into every single detail but give us an idea so so junior? Junior hunter test is beginning test and I did that when they were young. You know within a year or so and you basically the dogs just this got point. Limited pointing Steady Limited steady and. It's it's kind of like a young dog puppy test. Although you know dogs is a different age could do it then since senior hunter is pretty much a senior dog. You know you could talk dog into being steady. They could break on the flushed. Josh Kinda can can whoa them and retrieved within a step and master hunter is pretty much a steady dog right through shot and fall basically the dog. You don't say a word to know maybe call it around so they plant chucker. They've got to goners. And you get a master. Hunter is quite a hunting dog kind of field. The case you know master and It's just something once. I got a nod. I just really didn't do much more any hunting on test stuff. Sure just training knob and has the natural ability testify could step into a and that's just you gotta get a dog through natural ability by sixteen months and the dog has to. You know haunt slate point you know just Kinda not run away from you. There's no retrieving necessarily know. Birds are shot. They do a pheasant track doc and they do the twist bumpers in the water to get a dog swim and it really is just gauging a dog's natural ability and then utility and not has three different prizes prize. One price two and three so there's different levels of natural ability you and utility and getting a prize one on your utility ability dog That you're invited to the invitation. Okay and I know that I know that the natural ability tests for Nafta have the the high score is one thousand so you the dog runs through all these different scenarios and obstacles in their giving point number of points at each of those they can total one twelve. That's the top that you can get. So what Max Max score so as a prize one like Like one ten through one twelve or how does that around. Where does the prize one fallen there? No it's it's a it's a scoring system you know to a standard and I don't know the lowest score you can get but it's it's all based on multiples okay and certain scores It gets a little complicated for me but I didn't really good quality system it's consistent it's fair and utility prize. One dog is really a good hunting dog a very good hunting dog. Think it's like a half an hour field run. It's not brace work and the dog's gotTa be pretty steady through everything you can do some vocals to it. There's a duck search which my dogs are quite strong with. And that's you know that's released out in the swamp and your dogs basically has to hunt the swamp you know whether it makes contact with deduct or not there's a duck drag where doctors drug about honey yards and dog has to track it and then their study at the blind where doctors launch shot at and the dog has to stay. They studied through some distraction. Gun Distraction gunning and then retrieve the duck too and so It's it's a lot of water work. It's a lot of fun you know. It really does challenge dog. I don't do a lot of duck hunting but I do some waterfowl hunting duck and geese locally and the dogs will sit in blinds steady until I got some hand Dan Signals on them. I can handle them in the water and Do you imitation is an hour. Brace run with another dog and it's comparable to a master hunter run And Hunt us in the field. Then we have a blind retrieve which is about one hundred plus your crossing the duck on the other shore. There's a double mark we're we're to ducks are launched at blanks shot. And then. There's a steady to honor where doc is launched a dog a pickup dog. We'll go get the duck and it's right in front front of your dog. You're handling dog and it just has to sit still on. Let that on her happen so under doing a lot of training invitational traveling around Pennsylvania would couple of pros and other guys and girls who are running aviational getting a Lotta brace working. You know for honor and backing and it's It's it's quite test. It's hard when I'm getting close. Dogs are starting really come around. I've got about five weeks to prepare for the invitational and we're regaining inning. Ground slowly but steadily one question back on the AKC stuff before we leave that the off track on that so that I know well it's all right. You're taking us where we need to go for it but I just is that because I know like. AKC is they are. That's an umbrella over a lot of different breeds and so some of the stuff you talked about intesting mainly steadiness right so my mind immediately jumps to appointing dog which I guess that's a bad example talking about pointing birds being steady. See that's a pointing dog but are those AKC tests are they breed specific. Or is it. Do they have separate things for pointing. Dogs and flushing dogs. No the the hunt test is for pointing going. Okay you know there's there's hun tests for Flush IRS retrievers. Okay but it's it's it's different from the pointing dog. AKC right and I got you might be like twenty breeds pointers. And I'm I'm not sure. Exactly that qualify in Aw AKC Hunt Test Right. And so the flip side of that NAFTA NAFTA is their only pointing dogs right like it's a it's a group of different breeds the versatile hunting breeds. But it's only pointing all of their tests have appointing dog part of it. Yup It's it's specific to pointing pointing dogs. They have a list of breeds and again. I don't remember how many they are and you know there's several breeds and they're considered versatile and you certain breeds. That are much more common in Ogden much more successful than others so on the Brittany side of things Britney is not for me personally. It's not the first I breed of dog that comes to mind when I think of nabbed up but how what is the popularity or use of the Brittany and in the world from what you've seen Rick. So it's limited your most popular dog for nods as the German shorthair pointer which is basically writing popular dogs in the the world and it. It's a German system. You know. Establish that German system German breach your wire hair pointer refunds poodle pointers but You know there are not a lot of Britney's that have that even go to the invitation. You know we might get three four dogs year. Maybe five dogs to the invitation. And you know you'll get a couple of pass. I think last year there was maybe two or three Britney's got the Pass on the invitation but you know my guys are pretty good. I'm I'm close. It's not really am close but this is my second time. I'm taking two dogs to the innovational. Okay so the invitatinal. It's a once a year event. Yes it's once a year This year's here's one of the largest qualifications I think you not think just close two hundred forty dogs and it's four days of testing. It's pretty full. Leave a lot of volunteers. I mean it's exceptionally volunteers. Needed you know to to run this test this year. It's in Ohio moves around a little bit though. Pardon me does it move around from year to year well. They've been testing one year in Ohio. The following year in Iowa. Okay so this year's Ohio when I tested back in twenty fourteen eighteen it was Iowa okay and its members type Ohio it is September twelfth to Fifteenth. I think okay so. It's Thursday Friday Saturday and Sunday. I'm testing on Saturday and Sunday and I'll stay around Monday to volunteer to help out. But it's it's it's a lot of volunteer work and a lot of time and effort judging gunners planners third cleaners Different judges at the events setting ducks now. No Live dachshund imitation okay. You mentioned the the volunteering and I'm familiar with that just in the the amount that I am familiar with Navc uh I hear people talk about it. There's IT'S A. It's a very close knit community from what I can gather. I've never been to a NAB event but I know a lot of people that are involved with it and they always seem like the kind of people that I would like to spend some time with right like their dog. People they come together and they put in the time and effort to host these events since since you've got a little bit of experience on both sides of it would you talk about your volunteer experience and how that might apply to somebody. Maybe somebody listening to this is interested in bird dogs. I'm just GONNA go out on a limb and say that if somebody was interested in bird dogs helping out at an event whether it's something else might be a great way to get get get out there and see some dogs and meet some people. Would you agree absolutely you know the more dogs that you can experience in training. More breeds aged You know you learn a lot more watching other dogs participating helping out with other dogs then you really do with your own and you know any any type of dog training. You get that ball with with different pros but again we're on Knob to It's you know when we when we'd have a day training and off the I'm one of the senior you know no guys helping out and training. You know we'll spend a day training and we could be handling a dozen different dogs including your own dog or two now helping topping out from steadiness to water were duck search double mark blind retrieve through the different types of testing between utility invitatinal. You know to dog races single dogs now for the honor backing but the more dogs you get to watch and experience The better you'll be training your own dog. I've definitely found that in the The Times that I go to a place where it has a gathering you know whether it's a sanctioned event or something or it's just a group of people get together to train bird dogs in the summer you got a bunch of dogs on the chain and you're loading the bird field and you're running different dogs through and watching different handlers. It really it. It gives you a ton of perspective on the things that you'll see in your dog you get to see how other people handle their dogs. How different dogs respond to different handlers? Ars It's all of that is it's really important perspective especially for somebody like me. I'm on my first dog. I have limited experience. It's really helpful. Awful to see other people and other dogs absolutely. I think you can learn a lot more just watching participating listening to others handle and train then you really will just training on your own. It's a community this community. It takes a community to train these dogs. It really does. It's when we when I trained last last week in Pennsylvania would a couple of the pros. Kyle Hof Kim Clarke. A few other guys were going to the invitation. You know it's it really is is an upper level and it's all business you know. All the dogs are close to you know their quality and their ability. And you know you your train all day long during the different events and it's just kind of non stop go through and all the different venues but you know my many years falling. You know different. Trainers pros rose. You know you just watch a lot of different dogs handle you know. You'll learn math that you learn some systems and you try to stick to it and apply before we talk specific systems systems and methodologies. Because I'm really interested in that and I want to get your perspective on it. Let's just touch briefly on. What are you working on with your dogs? Going up going to the invitational tation. All what are the things that you're trying to find tune in tweak. What does that look like for somebody that's about to go to the invitational so we're working on steadiness honoring and backing for the one on our field drawn conditioning hot weather and he very important you know the blind retrieved the difficult part of the you know one hundred yards swim would it did duck on the other side and you know you just try to get your dog to do a straight line from where you're standing with the dog across and retrieve hand when you walk in a Lotta healing involved in the events getting to the shore to the water and then we do the honor again field run? The backing is also difficult. All we're asking a lot for dogs to back I'm getting improvement there. It was it was a little difficult getting that the last few weeks. But you know a couple couple of training sessions with some of these guys in a couple of different places and Va.. You know we were putting in three solid days of training. The you know the different venues of Knob investigational. And it's just it's just repetition. No my dogs are doing good. They're nothing great. We work hard chain. They they like to please do like to work the repetition they don't train themselves. They don't understand English so But at this level they pretty much understand what you want him to do right. It's just repetition and prep. Are you doing a lot of. Are you using pigeons. You're doing a lot of bird word. Pigeons Pigeons Field Lot of docs a lot of dead. Dogs you know. Initially when I started doing the blind retrieve you know we introduced some live ducks at shorter distances. You want the drive drive. But it's it's the invitational work is a lot of obedience you know. Basically discipline and obedience just when you when you send them across the water you. He basically just wanted to go there they understand. They're going to find something over there. You know and retrieve a dead duck bumper were before Dawkins and whatnot. It's it's it's quite a process and the guys I trained with a week ago in Pennsylvania or was seven of us working thirteen dogs. And you know everybody was pretty much at the same level it. Does it takes a community. You need guys to gun. Now we're using Chalker We didn't use pigeon his past few weeks a couple of weeks ago when I was training rain and different locations with some of the same guys we were introducing introducing pigeons and It's all helpful invaluable. I like a dog. That's you know steady through Shot that Alon or even when route grouse-hunting guiding okay. Nice dogs to honor each other safe. A steady dog is is a quality hunting dog safely. You know it's It's just but it's it's more training and it's more time. Yeah on the retrieving treating portion. You do a lot of water. Work retrieving which is oftentimes of less importance to upland hunter. And you'll hear I would golden say in call the justifications. I make no excuses. My dog doesn't really retrieve he hunts dead very well and I. I'm okay with it. I appreciate it I understand. Stand the point that I've taken to him in his training so again. I'm okay with it but NAFTA obviously is targeted towards a more rounded dog and and waterfall comes into play hence all the water work. Just talk a little bit about from somebody. That's that's done a lot of training and then now and you hunt your dogs talk a little bit about how you've every be seen that ad the advantageous for your dogs in the field for the retrieving. Yeah so I mean. I'm a very strong believer in the train. Retrieve and you're not going to be successful if the dog doesn't have a chain retrieve and it's You know it's some of it's not easy you know. We're comfortable but I believe in a strong retrieve it works when I'm grouse and woodcock hunting Certainly with the water work. You'RE NOT GONNA get a dog successful and a training without the train retrieve now I just think it you know you get the dog in the right mindset. It just gets better all around dog you know I. I'm very strong about its dog. Steady through flush shot. You know release on command. I don't lose many birds because the dog is studied. Two four shot full right. That's one of the things you'll hear as people want their dogs breaking at the flush or the shot to get on a wild rooster. That's just one of those those things that we hear often I can't argue with it. You know it's it's individual right. You know what you want out of your dog. But I don't see too many of the dogs dogs. I hung with hunting buddies. My Training Buddies I don't see us not find most of the birds that we shoot. I really don't whether it's me guiding in different preserves more grouse and woodcock hunting You know hunting out west sharp tells I just we don't lose too many birds And I I think there's some advantage to dogs getting right on a bird that shot but you know it's more work it's more training but it certainly certainly is safer for that dog just to stay there till released especially guiding them guiding with strangers guiding with you know guiding with a couple of three different into three different hunters and you may not know so. You're all about safety so I want that dog mine just studying standing there until they're given the retrieve. Yeah I think that's a huge factor in steadiness when you bring in the guiding aspect or the you know hunting with folks. You're not as familiar with even hunting with anybody really. It's it's different than a guy or girl out hunting over their dog just by themselves. That's a little bit different than what you might tolerate eight. What a bird gets up in a field? It's frantic it's chaotic and I have even thought from my own experience. My dog is steady standing. It's a lot less chaos than it is if breaks right on the flush or something like that. Yeah it's just you know it's you're not talking much. I don't do a lot of talking. I'm pretty much a silent trainer just whistle commands. And you know unless it's necessary but you know at this level where we're at. The dogs are just pretty much study. Now you know the grouse and what you're not seeing the dog and you know you're you're on the dog you're very much concentrating. You know on On Gun work now. It's nice when we I like to haunt with a dog and one of my friends so that steadiness it's just good behavior you know in addition addition to the safety end. Yeah definitely. Let's talk conditioning. Real quick as you mentioned that a little few minutes ago and that is something that is on top of my mind and probably really a lot of folks listening to this. Because we're all looking ahead to September or whatever your seasons open but we're looking ahead for sure and we're getting bird dogs in shape and I've been running mine probably more so this summer than I ever have some kind of excited about that. I'm sure it's not. It wouldn't make any pro trainers blocked the amount of miles my dog and I are doing but again. I'm happy with what we've done this summer summer. How do you go about your conditioning program? Rick full certainly died as part of it. I probably run my dog almost every day. And you know I'll get on my I side by side and I'm lucky enough where I live. I have Fields Woods apple orchards. Pons so You know if I don't have have a lot of time on just get on them. Ulan you know will run like half an hour so it's easy for me But the dogs are just just letting them run. And even if I'm not putting them on birds or ducks or anything just letting them running condition you know you want a dog for about forty five minutes an hour and You know it just keeps them healthy. The keeps them in shape. I try to chain train with the hot weather. 'CAUSE WE'VE had fairly hot summer so I try to get that in. You know to condition because when the KNOB detest test calms it's you know we could end up with eighty eighty five degree temperature from morning to evening. So that's something I'm actually really curious about it and I haven't. I don't know that I've heard or I have a lot of information on it. But let's just say because I've been thinking about this. I've been taking my dog for a run around noon a lot this summer. And and obviously that's a warmer part of the day. It's not the heat of the day but it's a warmer part of the day as opposed to going first thing in the morning so we have been running quite a bit in the heat and I think to myself. Oh this is good. You know good experience good exposure for him to run in the heat because we can get some hot weather early and and that sort of thing but then I think given the choice when they run in the heat they tend to I feel like they burn up pretty quick right but given the choice. Would you run in the morning in cooler. Temps ramps to try to get more miles get a longer duration in or do you actually think running them in the heat is good for some of that and perhaps the ultimate answer is as you should probably do a little bit of both well again testing the way we are for this invitation all you definitely want get them conditioned for the you know and I'm like again forty fifty minutes Get him get him. They're certainly keep enough water if there's any water for them to get into cool off off that's that's good but you definitely want a condition them with the summer so you don't want to surprise them and drop them out on seventy or eighty degree Dave for the first time. No you don't you want. It's it's it's a conditioning And they're they're in pretty good shape you know their weight is is right at you. Know a good Weight right now. They're conditioning is is good. I'm still working to condition them more now. I don't want to Overdo it but again an hour field running eighty eighty eighty five degree temperature. That's that's a long time. Yeah Yeah Dogs. I mean dogs and get heated in in minutes and you know getting a lot of water for them. aww They do have like Water that they dogs get cooled off and now the judges are very care. We're all very careful and safe about this stuff for. It's all about the safety and health at a dog. These tests but definitely conditioning is a is a big part of it. Yeah certainly obviously conditioning for a for a test. SC got upcoming. That's GONNA lead itself right into hunting season and a dog will kind of dogs if they get too hot enough they they really put themselves into game shape through the hunting season but of course the more the head start we give them before the season the better you hear a lot of stories kind of horror stories about dogs at you know. They don't do much exercise all summer than on opening day. And it's hot dogs. Get in trouble real fast. I mean that's not what we want. And you'RE NOT GONNA get quality hunting dogs. Don't wait 'til huntings ABC's conditions spend some time with them. Get them out there. Even if you run half an hour forty five minutes and again the heat of the day is is the best time because when we start rouse hunting woodcock conning. You know late September through October when we had eighty degree days last year. It's been hot early season last few years. which did you know isn't comfortable for any of US really know there's still bugs? There's lots of sweat. There's thick foliage. It's a recipe for a pretty uncomfortable uncomfortable day but that doesn't mean we're not enjoying it and you know there's some days I'll run three dogs sharing how grouse woodcock hunting just to you know. Keep them all healthy healthy in shape. Now if it's hot it's limited as you well know. Yeah I mean you talked about having having the access you've got the property you can go right out the door. I mean that is very helpful. That a lot of people. I'm sure would be envious of that. I have a pretty good setup where I'd get out the door and get into an area where my dog and run quite a bit but I think the key there is like you said just do what you can. I mean. Certainly give your dog every chance if it works reschedule and where you live and your location try to find a place whether you gotta ride your bike with a dog connected to it on a rope or something. That's you gotTa do what you can but if you can get those dogs an opportunity to get in shape well before or the season. It's whenever I say that I I hear like vets or trainers like there is no off-season really our our dog should be running and exercising exercising all year round. Just like you and I should rick absolutely absolutely and I do. I do a lot of training even through hunting season. It basically really really is hunting season. There there isn't much training now yell especially where I'm at you know they're not poppy Z. I'm not doing you know training for hunting. I try to keep them steady. I tried to keep them obedient and You know success lonning so earlier you mentioned following a couple of sort of mixing up your for your bird dog training system you know reading and studying different systems and keying in on what you like. Don't like trying things experimenting yourself off. You mentioned Rick. Ronnie Dome Are Smith you know. They're famous for their methodologies but I think every trainer kind of you know there's a lot of information out out there and there's a lot of good stuff so you kind of take what works for you and and there's a little bit of room to sort of mold and I think blend training strategies but with that said you still should be careful about you know Rick Ronnie del Mar Smith they have a system. They have a system for a reason. And you don't want to get you know to Wiley sort of like back with crossover and and mixing stuff up talk a little bit about your methodology for training a bird dog and in this case we are talking pointing dog dog so bringing those dogs up the progression of you know a puppy to basically a of veteran hunter. So I mean I pretty much trained my dogs By the Smith method Chain Gang Whoa Post Chat Cord. It's you know it's it's a good system you know. Train geddes data system to train. Your dog learned something. Understand where you wanna go with where dogs going to go with it. It's more efficiency. You know to learn training a dog along it's It's not easy you know. It's it's about efficiency but try to understand and learn the system. You know I'm I'm on my you know fifth or Sixth Bird Dog And you know it's just it works. Smith method works. You know. My dogs are quite steady their study from a younger age. You know the process I I mean I do about three or four Smith seminars. A Year I've done you know. Close to thirty twenty some seminars. You know from foundation right on through to advanced you know traveling around the country both with Ronnie and Rick I. I've worked with a few times over two years. Who's I I mean? The guys like Dog Training James. He really is. He's gifted it's it's actually gotten spiritual for me with Rick Ronnie and Delmore now their knowledge. I mean they've trained hundreds of bird. Dogs no they were field trial guys back in the day. You know. Ronnie's done a lot of bird hunting in Texas and Montana you know between training and hunting and guiding and in Texas. He's hunting an eighty five degree. Rather you're you're switching dogs every half hour. Yeah but I I believe steady dog dog that just stands still just have your dog stand still and you WANNA teach that dog not in the field on birds. You want that foundation in that discipline you know. It's a balanced but you you want that dog to understand that it has to stand still healing wall stay. I don't teach sit for quite a while. You know because it is important when she started getting into the utility and the invitational Tation It's you know there's other trainers there's other systems. There's a lot of lot of different pro trainers doing a combination. Thanks I do a lot of training training with a retriever trainer. Brad Arrington Moise Pond retrievers and he does all dogs. But mostly he's testing Field trial hunt test and with retrievers and he has a Kenley runs. Just down the street from me about seven months a year but his main location is in Georgia Matchup become very good friends with him. Family some trainers Yeah Can Ronnie. There's some vocal folks upset. I trained with I I. I try to train as often and as much and with different methods as I can and a lot of it's similar but Find signed a method try to understand it learning and and work through all. These dogs are good now the equipment we have today videos books to the knowledge of it. You two you really do need to understand the dog you really do an method you'll you'll get better at it but you can't teach the dog everything on birds training. Don't get that get that steady work healing very important the train retrieve and now it takes those take time. Yeah it's kind of that. Classic discrepancy. You Know Yard Work and field work. There's yard work that you know. There's no they're typically what people are saying yard work talking obedience stuff non bird work and then you've got field work. which is your bird work? And there's a time and a place for both of those. The other thing that the smiths do theirs is the silent command system right. Yes okay there. They don't speak to a dog they you know they're they're training through just conditioning and their method. There really isn't much talking they they they go through the wall post check or wonder lead and it's it really is. They hardly speak to the dog on you go to foundation seminar there intermediate Eh. There's really not much language. You don't hear you know rape her Ronnie's say much of anything to the dog and it's you know the dogs learn learn. I think a lot of US talked too much. Yeah I used to be one of those guys and I was threatened to put duct tape around my mouth and you know just a few years ago it's You know I put a lot of time into. Fortunately you know over recent years I've found more time to spend with the dogs and you get quick results so you mentioned chain gang which I know what that is. I'm GONNA have you explain it just in case somebody doesn't which when I think of chain gang I guess the first thing you think of is just you know it's just a it's a tool it's you stop to let the dogs out and you put him on a chain gang so they're all sitting there. But you mentioned it in the context of the Smith Smith training system and I know from reading and research now I know there ars some training aspects about the chain gang so talk about what it is and how it is used in the context of training meaning dog something as simple as clipping that dog to a stakeout post or changing. So it's it's a chain. It's a chain and they probably have Smith Foundation seminar. I mean I've been to foundation seminars. Fifteen twenty dogs on this chain gang and every two to three feet is is it a chain on the ground with posts and there's probably an eighteen inch to twenty four inch chain every two or three feet apart so so if you have twenty dogs on that on a different chain you know. Dogs are bouncing digging barking. And it's almost a self means of dog becoming steady. You know you start out one day and you got a lot of dogs barking and move in and and whatnot and weekend goes on. The dogs are just adjusting For the most part and they're becoming silent and becoming still and you're not doing anything you know. There are a lot of discussion you know. Certain dogs demonstrating demonstrating with there on that chain gang throughout the whole day. And it's just a form of studying it but the dogs are doing it on their own. There's not one word said that a dog doc And eventually they just realize you know. Just a big wide distill the chain and the other dogs all attached to. It are kind of providing leading the resistance. Some dogs are moving. You know It's each dog is feeling some of that movement. Yeah and It's it's it really is amazing amazing as you go through two days of training how they just get more and more silent and steady on that chain gang routes two days or three days of training and again. It's a method. It's not the only way right but You know training and I've been to four or five dogs with it and I didn't know where I was going with it as I was doing it. But I trusted busted it My female is from Ronnie Smith and Smith Bred Dog and again became good friends with them. And you know a lot of help I actually probably. They've never had a KNOB. That dog invitational dog so they were they kinda thought I was. You know like while you're taking a field dog and doing this waterwork you. You got a bird hunting dog and as they you know found help me through a lot of this stuff and follow me through it They were they were pretty impressed with it. Actually and pretty I talk about it and I was actually Oklahoma a couple of months ago to Ronnie New Kennel and location and Paul hoste Oklahoma. Aw and we had A. We had a great four or five days of working dogs and advanced seminar with some great people you know and again you're at that upper level so A lot of field trial dogs more. So I'm not feel trial. You know. Rows hunting for keeping dogs. Close you get on these training and working with these field ultra dogs. They're two hundred three hundred yards working away and it's like it was really just scrape stuff Wild Quail Planet Quail. It was a great experience. Break Place Rodney's got now so I take it. You would highly recommend folks checking out a rick. Ronnie Smith Seminar if they had the chance to absolutely absolutely they. They get different places in New York Marilyn Michigan Virginia. Just trying to think and I anything anything I can drive to. I I try to make. Yeah you definitely piqued my interest. I- I've since I've been paging through bird dog magazines pointing Doug Journal and stuff which goes back back a ways but when I was about to get my first bird dog back in two thousand thirteen fourteen. That's what I really started diving into this stuff. I've seen advertisements retirements and stuff. Rick and Ronnie Smith the whole time. I have a wonder lead. Maybe we'll talk about that a little bit. But I've never been to a seminar and I think if I were to come across one that was near me. I think I'd be pretty tempted to go. Check it out just after our conversation even knowing I knew before how how knowledgeable those those gentlemen were in this the dogs. They've trained and I've read about their methods. I think I'd be I'd be interested to go. Check it out actually. I should look there. We've got coming up this weekend and the following week in Minnesota game aim ferrets a really really big outdoor expo. I've never been to it but I would shock me. If they were there. I'll have to check it out They they do seminars. Ars through Wisconsin Michigan. They do one in Minnesota. A Bio Maryland. New York Rich. I think richest did one last weekend. Two weekends ago with Wet Foot outdoors up late and I did that last summer. Great Great Trainers also talked me about the wo- post just real quick. That's another one of their sort of pillar methodologies. Yeah it's you know it's a system where dog is There's a rope on a post and it's Half pitched belly to the collar. Then you have another check cord where you just Kinda put tension on the dog and half hitch onto belly creates a point of contact and the half hitch is that line is drawn back to this post. That's anchored on the ground and once you once there's tension the dog can't move it's just standing there and you know you work the dog through that and then eventually you work a E- collar on the belly again. A point of contact. And it's just to stop and standstill. No verbiage verbiage needed you could eventually worked a Welwyn and then you eventually. Transfer are from the flank the belly to the neck and it's like an invisible check court as you're working the train the dog to be study so I know it's easy to talk about it but it's it's just really experience exactly. Yeah that's that's explain it if you haven't done it You just need to experience. Yeah I'm GONNA try to. I'm going to try to add a little bit of sort of what I my understanding of it and you correct me if I'm wrong but see you got the you have the cord that is attached to the dog neck. It goes down the back. It goes then you do a half it. You're on the belly so the point of contact is around the belly. That's that's one of the points of contact the WanNa think of of and that goes back to the post that's anchored and so then you've got the dog on another co-ord- another check cord on the neck and you would. You'd essentially be healing Matt Dog right like you would be walking. You'd actually get in front of it and you'd actually Kinda put pressure on the court in your hand for it to come creates you anchin on the belly court. That's on the post okay. And it's it's not hard pressure. It's you know you don't Wanna pain. The dog just WanNa realize that you know this stops the door and you train that not on birds in the field you know and it's just a standstill study dog. So the Smith say they want their dogs dogs. The dogs to do three things. Stand still go with you and come to you so going with you hunting. You know we teach the dog how to quarter her worked forty five degree angles. You know and it's com- hunt and standstill and that you know that stands still is basically through every process. How do you start to? He'll talk though it gets on your side and standstill. You want a dog to be steady on a bird standing still you know you really don't WanNa teach steady around birds you know not the basic foundation of it right. Yeah the exciting stuff whether they will get a dog to standstill. I do and I have done it. Probably you know under a year you know with my dogs getting a bowl post and again. It's it's not automatic. It's it's a process chest but at least you know. I have a dog hunting fifty yards and I could stop it with the touch of an echo. You know again. It's like it's like an invisible check Kord so do you. You mentioned the flank caller so after the half hitch around the belly you do eventually moved to the flank caller. And then you eventually transitioned that to the next of the goal is is to have just one e caller on the neck and not flank caller. I mean you sometimes have to run the dog with a flank Colorado. He's hunting. How does that work for you? Well yes you can haunt would've flank collar but you know the sooner you get the transition from the flank the neck Whether you're training hunting the better off you are right the angle. Oh it's like catrine retrieve get get your will post done. Get your flank collar done. Get the neck transition don get your train retrieved on you know get get it done and certainly through all. This is a balance you know. Bring the dog you know. Keep that dog happy. Keep its intensity up its drive up its desire you know you. You don't want hammer to dog with discipline and again. I'm not talking to dog. I'm not yelling Not even raising my voice. Try not to raise my voice. You know save that loud voice Jason Tone for when you need it. Yeah and and again. It's it's it's a system there's others you know I just got comfortable with it again. I'm I'm good friends with the smiths and they've been really helpful to me and inviting me when they invite me to their home and training gentle and several seminars very cool. I didn't ask you. What is your method for the trainer trees? I've done the ear pinch. I've done Topol string on bringing an e. collar into it It's not fun doing to train retrieve but you know you you you get done and you know The dogs adapt to it quite well. Do you have to give up on because it is painful to the dog. Some of it. It seems like it is but You just get it done yeah. It's uncomfortable I shouldn't say 'cause I had done it myself. I'm kind of familiar with the Geneva preferred method or do you find that different methods work for different dogs. Yes I read the dog with. Okay I do. I read the Dogma. I've I've done ear pinch where it didn't seem comfortable for the dog and went to the top. Oh and then you know. I've started with two toe and that didn't seem well and went to the ear pinch but I do try to get it done. You know sooner than later and I don't beat them up upon I also you know it's a balance you know. Put them on birds a little bit. Let them feel happy. But you know don't take weeks to get it done or months even you know I'm pretty very slow in my process. It's you know have a dog that retrieves especially and nonprofits. It's about able. Yeah Yeah we could go on and on about training inning and reading dog behavior and managing your own attitude which I think is very important. I think that's a pretty neat aspect of dog training. It's actually training yourself awful lot of the times the manager reaction and how you react to what the dog does for sure but that could be a podcast for another day. Rick I appreciate your tablet. Let's talk real quick hunting season around the corner. You have any big trips plan what are your main pursuits. What are you gonNA be doing? This fall Michigan. I've got a buddy of mine who had gotten one of my puppies over four years ago and we're going to meet up with him and Couple of guys locally. We were out there last year. Up or lower lower okay. Laura and We had we worked hard but we got into birds. We had a lot of success. We didn't run into a lot of hunting traffic. They'll get a lot of dog work. I'm working as working dogs to get the experience and trying to three dogs but we did well we I think uh that was hunted. Eleven days at you know two weeks between traveling and we we got into a lot of birds we had a couple real good woodcock days limited. Now I mean we were. We were not limiting to more talks on the ground and let them get work. Certain just not shooting to limit and I'm okay with that I mean it's it's not about you know no shooting birds. It's about hunting them. And get the dogs lurk and We had a nice year in Michigan. I did not get the national grouse-hunting last year. Okay and I had been been there probably four or five years previous or actually got to meet you and shake your hand at at one point when I was there. Yeah I think it's been a couple of years since I saw. Oh you do less. Yeah probably that would ban right. That would have been twenty sixteen. I think was the last time I was there. Okay I think I did twenty seventeen. I didn't do last okay and I mean I. I had great times there one year I was out there and I actually ended up having to buddies with me and One day we put six different dogs on the ground. Now you know on dirt so that was that was really neat training some younger dogs. You know so. It's it's more about training and haunting than you know than harvesting stink. Yeah but we had a great day hunting with three three three guys and and again we put seven dogs six or seven dogs on the ground. You know I've always had a good time. You Know I. I've done the banquet for seven years eight years now locally on the chapter on President where it says you know it's it's it's a good quality organization and it's you know I think are just is the only organization in the country. That actually does poorest appetite. I would be I would backward. Yeah I would be scared addict out on a limb and say that they're the only one but they're certainly a leader in forest wildlife conservation. That is a fact and you know every uh forest animal benefits absolutely Turkey deer birds. I mean really every animal benefits. And you know we're just not getting enough habitat work work in New York at all. Yeah so little difficult when it comes to that type of stuff. But we do we do a ferment. Owning New York we work hard at it and I've got to travel like three. We hours just to get into grouse New York state where I live God. We manage manage house Mr Kuritsky. You guys still causing trouble together. Yeah Yeah Dave. You've David Dave's GonNa do the nationally. He's on one of the board of directors. Yeah and then he'll meet up with us In Michigan somewhere in Michigan running. Honey gotta you'll be probably four or five of US awning good. Buddy actually bought a building that we turned into hunting. COBB and I was out there a couple couple of weeks ago I'm a plumber by trade and business and we got the plumbing in the bathroom and kitchen. So we're getting that done. You know nothing fancy Ansi but got a roof over our head and it'll be dry and warm or cool. Whatever weather Eric? But I'm looking forward to that I don't think I'm going to get out and out west this year. I'm Sharpton again the invitation. Let's taken a Lotta time. I'll be out there for five days for that. Yeah that's right. Yeah right right around that same time were you might be thinking about head West probably and then. I think it'll be about the middle of October. That will get out to Michigan. Couple weeks here. Yeah cool well the next time you do you see Mr David Krinsky. Tell my say I missed. That guy used to I enjoyed always enjoyed talking to him at the events. But Rick. Thank you so much for coming on the PODCAST. Thank you for your support of Project Upland. We appreciate it and I wish you the best of luck in your upcoming testing the fall hunting season this. It's been fun man. We should do it again. Yes Nick thank you for the time I appreciate it. I hope it helped hope. There's some knowledge shared. You know it is a passion of mine. I've actually become spiritual about it all and good luck

The Times Rick Britney KNOB AKC Ronnie Smith US New York Cody Smith hunt hunter Nick Dot Larson Aj Brittany Rick Ronnie smiths Rick Ronnie del Mar Smith Oklahoma Grou Pennsylvania
Do What You Can

Antidotes, Stories in Medicine

1:23:19 hr | 2 years ago

Do What You Can

"Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of antidotes. I'm Christine your host this week. We're getting a little bit off of our typical civilian medicine path. And we are going to be talking to someone that was an army medic like I was but very different in the fact that they actually did something which I did not. So this week. We have Pete welcome Pete. Thank you. So I was in the reserves you are in the reserves now, but you were active duty. Yeah. I've kind of made the rounds a little bit. I was active duty, and then I transitioned to mass national guard and that I transitioned to nothing I guess technically the I R. And then I, you know, felt for the recruiter spiel and ended up in the reserves just where I am right now. I've actually still in the IRR I get so many phone calls in emails in there. Like, we need medics comeback. Jose CNA now to stick with his nurse practitioner. Response. And I had Keno what this is a great idea. Yes. To six more years. Let's do this. This sounds like a lot of fun. So how long have you been in total? I think I approaching nine years. I think nine years in a couple of weeks that point you guys to just stay in for the retirement. I mean, that's what I've one tells me. Yeah. Yeah. So did you start out as whiskey medic? Yeah. You know, I started off I joined a little later in life. I had tried several several times over over a long time to to get in. I like straight out of high school. I had tried is a mattress in the air force initially in that kind of evolved into the army by had some knee surgery. I had bilateral Famour Diatta me's when I was fourteen which is kind of something people don't generally like to take into the military. So so that was kind of a big a big barrier forgetting in, but I had done pretty well on all of my high school testing. So I kept getting phone calls and. Kept trying and trying and trying to think I had four or five tries before finally when I was twenty eight they were like, you know, what we'd let's get you a waiver. Let's see what's going on things were good. They let me in, you know, so I joined with the idea had always wanted to be a medic in the army, and I had done a delayed enlistment because you know, all throughout the process of going through the waiver in you know, seeing going to concerts in seeing different physicians to get cleared for for military service that position was available. And then when I found that got the maps that position was available anymore. So I I had to delay mindless meant only a few months on the pill March, and then I could find the actually go in a whiskey when I signed up tried to make me do like the medic slash LPN like extended one, and I was like, no, no, I don't wanna do that. And I like walked out the door and our land like one slot just opened up funny. How that works does recruiters. They can't be singing at the. Exactly what have they tried to? They offered me in. This is no joke. They offered me an airborne Plummer position. Which is being in for a while. I know that you can't really offer an airborne position at map sprite. But that's what they said. It's a plumber position with an airborne identifier to you wanna like I wanna be a medic. And I also look I'm from western New York. I'm from the buffalo. Niagara Falls area originally. So there's the Niagara Falls where I was at. And it's a good forty five minute drive home. And I had like just pulled in my driveway before they called me in there. Hey, we found a sixty whiskey slot for you as a K. I guess I'll be there in another hour. So I'll drive on back back that doesn't know. Army medics are classified under the designation sixty eight whiskey, that's your MOS your military, occupations specially so he the whiskies. So when we say that we mean army medic not in military. Yeah. Or I don't know if it had changed, but he used to be held here specialist, and then I heard it was combat medic again. But I'm not really entirely sure since a split off the Amoah Sa's. Yes. So they when I went through it was deadly healthcare specialists because too because you couldn't have women with an molest with were combat in it because remain for not allowed in combat actually until twenty six teen. And actually just didn't episode on a general anime Hayes with other good nurse banners podcasts in who is she was the first female general. And so a lot of the stuff she did kinda helped with the whole women. Getting into combat and stuff in the different topic entirely that we can totally get into because I I know that especially amongst like Bravo's in combat arms of one that, you know, there's definitely some people that are split on the issue, but you know being overseas, especially as a medical provider. That's totally something that's needed. You know, it's like a large gap that we would have is trying to treat the female population. Having our hands tied because we just were not the right gender yet. So I just released the bonus episode for that Hailey was talking about where she did CPR on a female patient in Saudi Arabia, say Muslim country, and they were up in arms that male EMT's paramedics coming onto the campus that they would see them they weren't allowed there. So kind of the opposite of that end. I I know a lot women wanna do it not saying every woman can do it. But stare certainly are women that can do it. I mean, I joined as a medic because I knew that if I was to get deployed. It would be the closest I could get the you know on the ground yet. This a lot of bullshit that goes around with to pardon my language, but because there are women there like it's not like they're no of an combat. It's like we have cooked Sutter women. They were there were medics there. We had this weird rotation with national guard engineer units on my cop where I was. And I think I think Texas I think they came in and they had a female medic who would have been she didn't stay long, but she would have been on mission with us. She would have been, you know, walk in the line with infantry. She would have been in the clinic with us with mass cows and everything that we were dealing with. So like worse. What's the difference? Where's the line drawn like you don't have the specific MLS in a like she's going to be there like let her train to be there. Just doesn't make sense to me. And then you have the other side of the coin when it comes to our eat for them. Like, I I had different different patients who I wasn't able to treat because they refuse. When I was male. We had a husband wife come in after stepping at an idea. The wife stepped on the ID was a bilateral amputation in the husband is caught some shrapnel to the stomach in. He refused to let us treat his wife. So we weren't even allowed to turn it gets. So she came in with with like cloth straps on her legs in a wheelbarrow. And he walked in wouldn't let a street her. And we had a direct are an Khaparde Afghan police force to drive her to can't heart which is for are away. Do you think that patient made it, I don't know? And at the same time I had Yvette him out, you know, based on his injury. So it's a tricky thing of emails in combat. You know, people want to say one thing about it. But it's definitely a need. Yeah. I I think the people that say that there shouldn't go. They don't belong. I don't know. Always that their opinions would be changed have the time unless they were directly with women in that role. Yeah. So I know there are delis women than. County ranger school. And now they're getting integrated in helping make a good impression further. Yeah. And you know, and that's one of the things too is like he kinda looking at like, what's what's allowed now in how're those women performing. But I mean women have been there the entire time. Like look at their performance in like, so good example was we had a a female cook who taught some basic sales stuff to shoot Seila certified. But Ahmet lightsaber. Yes, correct. We kind of taught her some advanced skills, and it wasn't necessarily. So she could go out in search shooting the populace. But it was so that we could more effectively communicate to female look nationals coming in through her. What was needed in? It's like the telephone game. You know, like, I talked to the female soldier on ground. She talks to the interpreter who's a male, and that's fine. And he talks to the female local national. So you know, it's so convoluted, but it's it's it's a cultural as a cultural thing, it's something that they require. And you know, they don't have any problem with the interpreter being male. But the person who they are. Operating must be female. So I think civilians American civilians don't understand that as a medical provider. Cute. Treat local nationals a lot. So explain that a little bit. Okay. So we if varies and I can only speak to my experience. So my my unit I was attached to an Italian divers striker brigade combat team, but we were pretending to be light infantry. So we were in the horn Pendrey, we are at this little place called Taylor can which I you know, I challenge anybody to find a map and that's Afghanistan. Yes. In the Pendle district. So, you know, we we go there, we I I would say we have maybe three hundred fifty soldiers on ground. We had our infantry unit. Our company we had a contingent of Odia which is special forces. And we had another on national guard engineer unit who was on the cop, and they they would rotate in announce sometimes there wouldn't be anybody there. Sometimes. Would be we were specifically. Responsible for our infantry unit. But we kinda saw everybody there is also some air force that we as air force LD and their canadianness the bomb guys. Yeah. Which is a different another story entirely. You guys, and then we had some Canadians for a while we we took over for another US army unit. But there was a strong Canadian presence when we got there, and then they actually integrated they're they're women can serve in combat. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They're women can serve in combat and do regularly in do phenomenal do phenomenal job. And we we would rely on their women who were there to to handle the things that we needed to get done that we should have had our own females to do in China by Canada, right? Right. So and and they're off, and they do a lot of I think the unit that was there the soldiers that were left over were there some some security elements. But then there was sign ups. I think was the big thing that was kinda left over for from the Canadians. They would go out and win a lot of their a lot of their operations were with special forces in. They had their own thrown ideas. We were ultimately fighting the coin fight, which was countered certainty, you know, basically going out into the population doing whatever we could for them to make them not decide to to be Taliban fight such. So as part of that, sometimes you have to treat the local civilians Afghan nationals was it only after they have been engaged in combat with the US for her friendly forces or was it part of bombings or Halliday, become your patient. Well, it varied end our overall medical operations were a little fuzzy at the time we. We initially went there with the idea that we would only be treating, you know, our our forces. But the need was there to to do more and one of the funny things I noticed when I got there. I was I was the first medic on ground for my unit to do the handoff with the NCO who was kind of left over. And you know, the way the life cycle goes, you know, we come in with wanting to like heal the hearts and minds and do the job, and you know, and throw candy to the kids as we walked through the bizarre. And then the unit coming out has been through fighting season as has kind of been through of it in their kinda just done. So they're little bit jaded. So they didn't see a lot. They started off seeing a lot of locals, and they kind of cut it back in than when we first got there. We weren't really sure what we were allowed to do. But we knew that we were doing the coin fight. So we would walk from Kelli, Kelli or village the village and do our key leader engagements, and then whatever medic was there was. The medical package. We would do a little village medicine, which was really kinda strange, but we would offer in what we could as far as medicine was was concerned. You know, you'd see a lot of old injuries that people wanted to kinda wave a magic wand and make better that you can't. But you sort of do what you can almost even make show of it to to let them know that number one you care that you wanna do what you can. And the number to do actually what you can to make them feel a little bit more comfortable one good example, was we we would see I remember I remember going to to one village. And you know, they they set up. They started talking about what they're talking about in. Usually, they would be discussing the crops in the area, and you know, trying to get them from, you know, talk them out of growing marijuana and poppy. And I would just kind of sit in the area and wait for people to come into. I would get kids who had like broken their arm in. It was never like properly set in they head like law some kind of circulation, and you can visually see on the difference in colorization. But like at that point, what do you do in you kinda talking to them? They're like, oh, I put my arm two years ago and yadda, yadda, yadda, like, okay. Well, what what can I do for this kid? Can't do anything to fix the problem. But he has like this splint set up. That's like fiberglass insulation wrapped in like a five K T shirt that their splendid with something like I can probably do something better with this. The check their mobility run him through an exam and do what you can for them. You know, Z in pain when that anymore Z to lose mobility. Yes. He lost mobility. He uses the brace that support will in the okay, we can do something better for that. So you give him something better for that. And you kind of just build that relationship solely based on you know, them gaining your trust for. You actually, you know, kind of giving damn? Yeah. So we that being said we saw the local population. I keep getting sidetracked. I'm sorry. We saw the population to that regard. So I would walk out into. And I can't say I one of the biggest things that I try to push when I talk about a my time overseas is that like being combat medic is team sport. Like, it's so much team sport. There is no way that you can be the sole medic dented interview for a book a while back, and it was kinda edited to make it sound like I was like the lone medical provider like wandering Afghantistan and seven hundred turn it gets thrown the min- everybody, essentially like, yeah. Like I had this gigantic aid bag, and I was essentially Dr Quinn medicine oven. So that's not the case. Like, there's a PA. There wasn't there initially. He got there. Eventually each platoon has a medic one platoon head two bags. They actually had a outpost a little further away from the may not post, and then we actually were assigned thankfully to additional clinical medics who. Just kinda hung out. In the clinic. We had a treatment NCO in than just a another specialist. So we were really plus up with medical personnel. And we were able to rotate our medic patrols and stuff like that. I was with with third platoon when I deployed as actually the fourth Lipton medic, but the medic who was scheduled to deploy was having a child, so he kinda hung back which you know, which I gave a lot of crap about. But now actually having a child of my own. I never I could never do. So so we were really plus a medic. So we head the personnel to run clinic, you know, so we did regularly in took a lot of time. We first started out with having a small clinical package right inside. One of the gates are rear gate, which was we shared a south wall with a bizarre. See you keep saying that doesn't outpost posts company level post in like, we were company that was there and we shared it with a very small group of special forces guys in they sort of. Ran the wall. So they would they would bring people to us special forces has a different configuration. They have eighteen dollars. Who are paramedics? Yeah. They're paramedic level. But they're not always readily available because I have they carry more responsibility for the unit for their team. So we kind of set up in advance of who he would see who they would see we actually had the higher level care provider. We had we had the PA. So any clinical concerns that came through to our cop our outpost, we we ran through PA. So we actually had a pretty good setup were initially in that that rear gate. We had a small clinical package a walk bag that we had kind of plus up with with clinical supplies to do. And you know, if we thought it was something that the the provider would wanna see try to talk them into coming into the cop and seeing the American doctor, you know, and that was kind of the biggest fight was like the local population knew they needed medical care like that. Wasn't any question, but they were terrified. It was either, you know, be at the Taliban the Taliban would find out that they were coming to the Americans for help. We would have women bring children who are terrified that. Their husbands were would find out. They brought their children, you know for help. And that was another big barrier that we we kind of encountered as well. But eventually you get to the point in your life cycle of deployment where they start to kinda trust you, and they kind of get a feel for when the Taliban watching when they're not when they can actually come to the cop when they shouldn't. So we would see that. We would see like these big surges of people coming into be seen clinical cases like early in the morning, and then after dinner child has always like before before breakfast show after dinner child, we'd get something in than initially when it came to trauma patients, they wouldn't bring him to if they brought him to it would be like very very late in the injury, essentially with there's nothing we could do. And eventually they started trusting this more than they would come closer and closer to the point of injury. But. Was there a Afghan hospital Afghan clinic at all in villages or anywhere near you guys know, the only the closest Afghan actual medical facility was in Canada, at least to my knowledge, and that's four hours away. That's for hours away by car or by by by vehicle. However you travel, but by bird, I don't remember how far was by bird. Exactly. But there was a there was a pharmacist. And you can't see me. But I'm using air quotes. There's a farmer in the bizarre who was somebody who just peddled meds, essentially in there, you know, it's Afghan bed. So it's meant that. We were like what the hell is this, you know, in the they weren't trained than it would use these months in one of the prime examples of this that I found when I was overseas. It was still pretty early my deployment. And we had we run a foot patrol in. We're basically walking out to this area. They called the schoolhouse, which was this school house that they built it was this piece of land. I think special forces have put it together. They built a school for the locals that they wanted kids to go to get dedication education was kind of the way past what they encountered with the Taliban and Alabama put out that if anybody wants to that school. They would kill their families. So it just kinda became Afghan police force checkpoint. But we call it the schoolhouse checkpoint. So we walked out to the schoolhouse. Check point our intention was to kind of stay overnight. Kinda, you know show show the the police force that we were there with them and whatnot. And while we were out there. There's a couple of guys making NAN in the dirt more us, essentially like almost with their feet. Interesting display, but you know, their commander came up. They're like, oh, doctor, which is what was with the medics. Everyone's a doctor if you knew anything about he was telling me that he was having problems when he peed. Oh, great. Okay. It was like what's the problem is like it's very strange color. And I was like well, could you? Scribe the colored? I mean have you Debbie taken a sample? Can you describe the color was like, yes, it's very can hit. He said, vibrant. It's very vibrant. Thinking like that such a strange way to describe it. And I was like, oh have you have you changed your diet of you taken anything new recently? And he's like, yes, I just got pills. Remember what he was being treated for either. Having back pain or something something common. But nothing too crazy. He was he was having some kind of pain anyone to the to the pharmacists in the car. And he said he gave him pills and told him to take them three times a day, and he would feel better. And I was like, well, Dino they are. And he said, no, I don't as you have them. Can I see them? He's like sure hold on any one away. He came back on like, fifteen minutes later any head this tube. And I look at it. And there's English on the two it's a lot of other writing. But there's English on the tube and their one a day vitamins. I was like twelve or something. Yeah. Yeah. It's a multivitamin. So one of the vitamin that he's taken three times a day for or knows how long since he's had got. And he's his his urine, vibrant, easy, fix, obviously. But like, that's that's the sort of thing as they go to the pharmacist for problem. He kind of gives them whatever the hell he has handed out some that's what's gonna fix that. Yeah. And then, you know, so no real medical facility to speak of we went to. Occasionally find drugs that were like like Tylenol and stuff like that. I never would know what people actually had it for talking to the local national population about their clinical needs as a little bit tricky. Yeah. I can imagine just because of how they kind of how they identify symptoms and whatnot like us hand hand signals that don't always make sense. We always have the job they would like their hand kind of like a pulsating hand motion on their arm. Would we would think it was supposed to be disag- defy pain? But it was really like them pointing to their arm, and I'll be like arm opinions. Like, no, I have a thing here. You know, always the way that they sort of described their symptoms. Weren't totally consistent. I guess. Yeah. You think that certain things translate culturally, but they really don't know. So you're in you've been interviewed a lot about your deployment. You hasn't pretty notable things happen. Do you wanna talk about any of those? Yeah, we can we can talk about a few of those. I usually I'm usually pretty open about things that have happened over there. Just because I do think they're clinically interesting. They're not especially like being sort of. Into civilian medicine. Even though I don't I don't work clinically anymore. They're just not things that I have noticed. People kind of experience an even being a military medic dealing with that situation is totally different than how would be dealt with your. Why don't you what you do limit in the civilian? I guess sure. So I work in a pediatric hospital. And I started off when I got out of the off of active duty. I started going to school here in Boston. And I took a a position clinical assistant, which is essentially a nursing assistant position. And I was working in cardiology. And it was fascinating. I love cardiology, especially pediatric algae. Yeah. In you know, I had done a C Lassen. I was using less instructor before that. But like the whole read today. Congratulations tear. But like even even having done that like the things that you encounter in pediatric cardiology atop hospital like kind of insane that you just don't expect that to be thing. And they were completely different experiences than what I experienced overseas. And yet I would find it nursing would be like very interested in what I had experienced there in that. I was very interested in what they were experiencing here. You know? Yeah. You get a lot of like trauma like traumatic arrester adult hummus had like cheeseburgers in. They have a cardiac arrest because of that may need stents. But kids you get things like tetralogy if alot arterioles always congenital things that you never see actually a couple of weeks ago. I had a patient come in who is in her fifties. She goes ally had Peyton doctors Aotearoa says PDA, which is like the whole in your heart, and they found it two years ago. And I was like what how how you walking? I don't know. She's from India, and yeah, my mom's house equal. She didn't think that not not. Anyway, it's very interesting any right? Because a lot of that stuff has found, you know, even when it's found late. It's like when they're teenagers playing sports things kinda come out when they start being a little more active. So at that is pretty insane. But you're right. Like that. There's a lot of crazy cardiology stuff that you encounter that. You don't is stuff that you don't see in the population that year exposed to in the military. Even when you're you're not you're working in garrison. You're still we're still functioning in medically still operating clinics in to sit call and seeing patients, but it's a generally healthy population. You know, if you have anything he might have a murmur, you know, like an undiagnosed, you know, like, it's it's nothing to crazy. So then to come into the civilian side in NCAA all the stuff, it's pretty it's pretty crazy. I was talking about that with Angela who is in one of the earlier episodes. She's a medic in the reserves to. You know, obviously, the reserves get shit on a lot beyond that. And for the most part, rightfully so. But when it comes to the medical providers when you have a medical reserve unit if the medical providers are working in the civilian world actively in their job it's little bit different. Because you see somebody really really sick people that you wouldn't necessarily see a healthy heavily of soldiers in their family. So there's some benefit to that having reserve soldiers jobs. Yeah. I think I think there's a tremendous benefit, and I definitely have have seen that over my career in the military, which kinda gets to like launches into different little story budge. I had a few different never entered your last question. Get back to it. I had a few PA's when I was received. So when I first came to my unit, I got there. Knock Tober we deployed April. I think the beginning of April March beginning April, something like that. So this PA was an e six or seven and been did the ipad program. So he did the army PA program, then he was a PA. So his his experience had been pretty much military. You know, we deployed, and we had a mass Kelvin that a secondary ID was initiated after the medical facts was on ground to respond and our peak went down. He was okay alternately. He it was mostly MTV. I and he did have kind of a rough road forward from there. But you know, he he survived and he's he's doing well now, but you know, we had a new peon ground by the end of the day in a we evac sixteen people in the field that day came home change that are uniform put on tees came back to the clinic. Started running maze exams to people who aren't Qasim announced. Concussion exam. Yes. And I I wish I could tell you what it stood for now. I don't remember military acute concussion exam. Sure. Let's go with that sounds perfect. I don't know. But that was creative. If that, correct. I have a computer front of me. I could probably Google is. I yes. So we're we're running all these Mace exam to the these other soldiers around ground and a few of them needed to be to send out to. But while we're doing this, another PA walks in or like may who are you? And he's like, oh, you know. I'm I'm so, so I'm your new PA. We're like, are you kidding me? Like, we just sent our old PA away. Like a couple of hours ago. Kind of the point getting our old PA was very much military military focused. He did a lot of clinical things in garrison. As far as our call's concerned, he was a phenomenal educator as well. He pretty much would let he trusted his NCO's to do the training that their soldiers needed to get into that clinic to run the exams to sort of guess at a diagnosis. And treatment, and then sort of let them present to the peon. He'd be like, yes or no. Or he gave us a lot of a lot of leeway. You know, we could do a lot under him. And it was phenomenal was agreed learning experience. And he would correct us when we're wrong, and he would teach classes in between his great Mike spheres with him though. Again, Mike spirits with him started in October, and we deployed in March or April so Mike experience was solely based on training up for trauma. You know? We did a lot of that we hypothetical traumas, and and that sort of thing ideas that he had that we would probably encounter during deployment he had deployed previous. So now, this new P who was ground was was you know, from the hospital. He I don't I'm not entirely sure what his position was before that. But he was very very clinical not very trauma oriented, and he knew it, and he was very open about it. And he he was like, you know, I'm looking for to learning from you guys in the Senate the other thing we we had a few trauma events where the differences became very apparent. He saw. The differences in. He eventually was like, hey, I'm gonna take a back seat on these traumas. And I'm just going to be one of you guys. So our senior line medic kinda took the lead to the table in started doing his thing. And then actually having the get down in get that experienced at like, you know, the sixty eight whiskies the medics were doing like learning how to control bleeds in kind of understanding, you know, the that we were running. So that was great. Yeah. It's it's very different than being provided myself, you don't learn trauma management. Like, you do in sixty eight was school it if you haven't had that experience as a provider, you're gonna be over your head. I mean, you can obviously learn it you're very educated you can pick it up. But if you specialize in trauma, like the whiskeys, do then you don't specialize in you know, he needs to learn an it's hard. It's it's very different animal than doing physicals were doing a cardiology work, upper or something else. Yeah. You know? And there's something to be said about like working in a hospital on a base, and then deployed to Afghanistan, and now you're years centrally in like a wooden shack performing medicine in trying to manage trauma in you know, you don't have to worry about the same things necessarily and one of the big coz, I always give to this provider is that he was he had the self awareness to be like, all right? I need to change the do things. And these guys can help me do that. So he was again, he was really very much about like on just I'm just another set of hands. Tell me what to do. And he learned that when he was he was a phenomenal provider. We had so much respect for him. But one of the great things about those differences between having a clinician come in and kind of take the reins and not have the trauma experiences that we had all this great clinical now Jeter disposal when it came to the other side of job having local nationals command were having Joe's commit with back pain. And all this all these things that would happen learning. How to write notes right better notes are having our assessments, inform our notes and memorizing notes help you. Inform your assessment, and that sort of thing. So there is a really great kind of juxtaposition between the two different types of providers. Which was kind of interesting I was sort of like kinda cherish that experience having these two different people. Yeah. That's awesome. I think everyone should spend time previously. Maybe not Moore's, although if you want to I think that's coal to but pre you should go Pri happily 'cause it's Cadillac the wild west. And then you should also spend time clinically in a hospital. You really need to understand. How medicine is practiced on both sides to be able to adapt because sometimes things go to hell in the clinic tearing need to Dapitan. Sometimes pre hospitals are very complicated, medical you need a lot of that cerebral processing of it too. Yeah. I think it kind of goes for like some of the judging as well. You know, you get a patient in tier onto your table. You know, even even in the war zone. You had like a whiskey out in on the field. And they like. Messed up a Nyayo in. And you're like, oh, this isn't actually this actually giving the patient any fluids like healer not to judge because you realize also probably dodging enemy fire at the time. Yeah. That's a pretty good excuse. Yeah. I think so you know, you you should still get your out. You know, if you're if you're going for you, so make sure you're yeah. It's it's an, but you know, things happen different different things happen. So kind of getting back to your previous question about some of the other things that of came up. There are a few things that were kind of like the the the bigger notes in my brain of things that had happened as far as traumas concerned in. I think one of the funny things I kinda take away. Not funny. Ha ha, obviously is that a lot of the a lot of local national traumas kind of blur. The kind of blend together the few exceptions not because they're local national. But because they were so similar chair. You know, we had a lot of once fighting season kinda picked up, you know, you take a lot of enemy fire. But it's. All you know, it's all outside like eight hundred meters. It's nothing you're super concerned about with a few exceptions. But a lot of it has to do with either covering or or, you know, protecting themselves against us reacting reacting to them completing ID's, so there's a lot of ides's improvised explosive devices that they put in the area, and we had certain measures to sort of detect these things the first measure was a valid, which is a type of mine detector metal detector that somebody carries in a patrol, and that you sweep like you're looking for for coins on the beach, but you looking for metal signature, and you know, when you find something you kinda prod at it and see what you find. If you can find the player, whatever. So we had a lot of that going on in the area the other measure we had was a blimp that head a very expensive camera attached to that could see in the three sixty zoom, zoom out and have different camera filters and stuff on it. It's called the end that head civilian contractors at twenty. Seven and their only job was to watch these screens in look for people in placing or initiating ID's. So that kind of leads me to my first my first story, which is one of the only things that can actually find the internet nowadays. But there's this piece footage that I've run across of you know, they're sweeping the area. Looking for people initiating ideas, planting ID's, come across this dec- young child like be maybe six seven in effect. And he's walking cross the very low bridge short British and he at the very end of the bread. She kind of stops kinda looks both ways than than darts off to the side of the bridge. Kind of over to like where the Wadi would go underneath at this point in time. You know, what all the wadis dried up at Salt River dried up, so everything is so he kinda goes off to the side of the Wadi. And you kinda watch him come back over and sort of like jazz foot in the ground. Like what the hell is doing? You know, he goes. Out to the site again a little bit. It comes back over and he suggests foot in the ground again the health kit up too. So at this point, you know, the guys so another little bit of the stories that the civilians who watched this pages are in a Connex, essentially directly across from the station there post throughout the other their Narcan. You open your doors, and you walk out the front of the station, and then the Connex for the civilians is a little bit off to the right? So they used to come over all the time whenever anything kind of interesting was happening on the screen. So they're like, hey dot com. Check this out. So a bunch of us went over there. And we're like watching this kid. This kid has been doing this for like ten minutes. So he do something step on it. He'd run back. So then we're watching him do this. And he walks over to the center of the bridge Indus jumps. He doesn't full on jump. Stop and initiates ninety God. Yes. So become the find out that this kid had been paid by the Taliban to initiate an already implanted ide-. He just walks over takes. This nine volt battery puts it in place, and then the kid being kid was like, oh, I wonder I wonder if I can play with this thing. He went new started, you know, trying to initiate, but not hurt himself and he ended up coming to our aid station. So they brought him in. We knew he was coming in. Oh wanted it happened. We had sent to word to talk or the, you know command to command, and they sent word out the locals picked him up in broad. Amanda centrally. So he came to the station, and you know, we we treated him. And he was just like a lot of the other local nationals who see who spent ID's they are triple imputation. You know, they always have a relatively clean, amputation on leg. A pretty mangled invitation on the other based on whatever foot they stepped on initiate initially. So a lot of times we saw a femur one femur spiking out sort of. And then we would see one of the two arms usually they're dominant. Arm d would be pretty mangled or missing. So he was one of these cases. A huge thing from training was that one we were training, and we had this type of patient. They were always unresponsive. And I don't know that I ever had an unwritten trivial triple imputation in Afghanistan. You know, they were always very responsive usually not responding the way, you would expect triple imputation to respond, and like very talkative, and you could usually gauge kind of how things were going based on how they were talking. How high up his invitations? I I would say probably. So he would have won one below the knee. And was that when he stepped on the idea? I don't know 'cause he sort of did like jump like a jumping stop. So I could put really tell you how. Yeah. Like, a kid would tell you how he hit the actual plate or more. The idea was in place from there. But then he would have an above the knee on the other. And I don't really recall his where his arm was. Did it seem like they kind of cauterize is that why they would be conscious opposed to just hemorrhaging. No. A lot of times what we would see that. He vascular like like retract San and attempt to to compensate for blood loss. So your your body is top down thing. Yeah. So like your body is essentially trying to like close the container on its own in we call the sham -sation and then. Yeah, shunting. And then when they kinda spiral they lose the ability. And that's when they compensate so kids can come say, so well until they can't. Yeah. That's a big thing with kids that they compensate like champs. But they when they. Stop when they start compensating happens quick. And he was one that he came to us very quickly. He was still very lucid. And we were able to get turn it gets quick effect quick. And he was even telling us that he was out picking berries with his mother, which you know, is like we saw you. We watch jumping that like we know what to up to like there's no need to lie. Like, we're still in a treat. You send you away is like, no, no, I was with my mother we were picking berries. And he was adamant about it. He was picking berries with his mother in. That's the name of the ninety s kind of this kind of always what we saw. There's always. People came in and people people came in they step in ID's. We didn't always have a great view on the pages of what had happened or really even before the PG came there. We had like riot camps up in the corners. We can kind of see some distance. We wouldn't ever actually know what the real story was. This was a case that we did know what actually happened. So it was always kind of the same people come in. They would tell us that they were, you know, innocently walking down a road stepped on an idea or something, and it was always very similar the injuries. Like, I think one reason why this kid sticks out to me is because he was he was much younger. And we actually like watched him actually saw it happen. Did you guys have pediatric equipment with you? Not initially. We eventually got bras low back. But I mean, there's there's a lot of lead up to that as well. We got there, and we had this wooden shack that they called aid station, and, you know, not to not to not be Rick full for our wooden shack because the unit before us got there. And it was just a marijuana field kinda put up Esco barriers and Doug all the marijuana out. Most of the marijuana I should say, and and you know, they created this from nothing. And then one thing they did was they built a shack. So our age station was kind of in the back of the motor pool. And as I said earlier, we were Stryker brigade that was pretending to be light infantry for a while. So we had a lot of strikers, which are armored eight wheeled vehicles sorta park there, and then we had our age station in the back and for a little while they they were gonna make our call sign ratchet. But I was like, hey, that might be confusing for people because we're in the back of the station. So they might come to like, you know, change their oil and stuff. So it was built on nothing. So we didn't have a lot. You know, we will be brought we had a few cases that got sent there. And then when our PA got there he had brought some cases, but our resupply was very slow. We always send up requests. And it was kind of one of the sort of funny. Not funny moments when we actually started that big sixteen man mass Cal like that happened. And I think that was a sort of jarring thing for our command. Because like, oh my gosh. These guys actually need some resources, and we had sent up several requests for resources, and the thing that really pisses office at you know, we needed four by four gauze, you know, so we send up every request four by for guys. And then we got this gigantic dump of RIC like medical supplies that we had requested. And it was literally all for before they went through every request. We ever made in only pulled out for before God. And then sent us every last bit for by Ono. They were okay. So we had. Tons of four by four. But like we didn't have like, you know, basic medical supplies, antibiotics and stuff, but we got very plus up when they start to kind of see where like our needs were like how combat heavy our region was we got very, plus we actually built our own pharmacy room that we could lock we actually had a pretty good supply that we could choose from actually treating both like our soldiers and local national so Kisner civilian world. You never think about all. I need these lies, and I can't have them. Yeah. I mean, an EMS he kind of like, oh it was on the track. But you have force. Yeah. And another thing with like civilian medicine as he don't think of it in terms of like triage, necessarily like Easter trend three has patients based on like your personnel. But also like what you actually have in your in your eight station that you can actually the difference with. So that comes into play a lot in, you know, as your deployment progressives. Like that changes, your triaging, ability, definitely changes. So you've definitely make different. Vision based on what you have available to you. Yeah. When on ising whiskey school. They always did them as CAL's games. Stephan. They're always like, well, someone may be expected, and you know. We're about to pass away based on your resources shore. If you had a fully staffed Boston hospital, they would make it toke depending on where you are. They may not so. Yeah. The other thing in training was like we never do CPR in the field. We do we actually quite the opposite. We actually had a rule that nobody dies in the station. They're going to die. They're gonna die in the bird. So we did lots and lots of CPR in our station in you, like having deployed in coming back to back to garrison Senate actually, having kind of focused on more courses done a C S pales be less. I had a lot of the like I wish I knew this back Ben moments. You know, like things I would have done differently things. I would request the differently. I don't know what to see you kind of like kind of look at the different the different points or the different patients that you had in kind of what you did for that patient in you like, oh, you know, what I could have done in this case. Now, the now something a little better, I could've done this maybe could have dropped chest tube in. We we had a hell the time with this. This this pair of brothers who were in our bizarre who got into a fight. And this is this is the story, by the way. I don't know if this is actually true. But with the story was two brothers came in was unresponsive. Give both are stabbed in the guy who could talk said that they got into a fight with Taliban some random Taylor van and he had stabbed them both. It was like a property dispute. He had stabbed them both and ran away. So one brother is unresponsive the other brother, I'm trying to remember. I think like he had had some steer stab wounds. Like, I think a kid shoulder blade. Like, there's nothing too bad. I think we'd Occlusive dress addressed inclusively in. Then I don't think he had any like respiratory distress or anything like that. He was generally kind of. Okay. His brother on the other hand ahead of hemophiliacs. And we were like losing views. You know, he was he was interesting. We we're doing CPR like the more doing CPR, the heart-to-heart was seduce EP. We're all like tension. Yeah. We're like what do we do like were essentially in a wooden box in the dirtiest place on earth with no way. We have no suction. We what do we do? How do we keep this guy live, and it was basically like do see p? Our best. We can't until the bird picks up in hope. They had more supplies than we do. You know, what else do say this guy's done? He's an Afghan. Let's not worry about him. Like, no, you do at night with that directly. Exactly. And did nothing for us to know we could. So we could put a chest tube been. We were able to do that. But we had no way to control output. We had no suction. And then the other concern we had was like, well, if he's bleeding Turnley, we put a chest tube in each exactly. So like that that back pressures probably doing at least something to stop is pleading. So we can keep doing see if we can keep doing CPR, then maybe we can get him someplace that. They can actually do something for them. And I can't imagine that he lived. But at least you tried. Yeah. And that's all you can do. And I think that's kind of like the moral of the story when you're in Afghanistan. That's the Morella starting a lot of times in emergency medicine. It's like. Each try until you can't anymore. So what was the story? The question. I initially asked was what was the story that prompted you to have books written about? Oh, okay. So it's actually like patient who they wrote about was like my very first patient in the field when I was a PFC in. I don't think I did anything wrong necessarily. But I was like shocked and trying to figure stuff out like a couple of things alluded me back then like the Venus using 'cause you know, when you're trying to stop leading you're going to get some good thing. I would not want anyone to be writing out early patients. Yeah. There's there's a learning curve is. Yeah. Declaring card. So there was this was in may. So this was a few months after we deployed. So this actually must have left in April. And my birthday may early may. So I spent my thirtieth birthday gets older when I joined by my thirtieth birthday on patrol in Afghanistan. Like nearly passing out like it was horrible. Hundred thirty degrees. You could feel the heat comes off the ground shortly. After that, we started fighting season fighting season started pretty early for us. We started getting sort of the lighter tax a little bit earlier and you saw them react to us as while. Like when we started doing something differently. They would start doing something differently. When we decided we're gonna drive trucks around. They started increasing the amount of HNB that was in their ID. So homemade explosives that were in their ideas. So we started seeing these larger bombs doing more damage to our troops. But way, more damage to vehicles. Well, so this one one thing that was written about was knife. First patient. It was a day after my first contact we're at this very large element moving through like though, essentially the worst part of our of our area of operation and contact us when you receive five. Yeah. So we received fire everybody everybody fired back even those of us who didn't know where the fire was coming from. You know, they call it out. And we just everyone kind of shot in the same direction. It was so far out. That's the thing that was so far away. I remember thinking. Like war. What are we aiming at like, I know this coming from over here. But like are we aiming at something particular the very next day? We had a mission that so there's too bizarre. Bizarre that was right outside. Our our cop, our our outpost. And then there's another bizarre that they call the Taliban. Bizarre. I don't know why they call the bet. I just assumed it was because it was dangerous or something. So we had traveled to another another outpost which was the man by just a platoon that platoon the head the two medics we stopped there. We picked up an e OD contingency, and we sort of went went on our way. And the idea was that we were supposed to find a weapons catch. So dismounted we walked very slowly because we had this UD team with host a very thorough. They're like just hell bent keeping us safe, which I definitely pre she'd every single time happened the ODI was phenomenal. Over seas. Always came. We call them the matter what time of day number. How many times we call them? And they always had very thorough job in. I love those people that being said they stepped on a lot of. Dis. Unfortunately, so this is the first time I had encountered that we had moved to the are the something called an icon, which I don't know what that stands for exactly insurgency communication. I don't know one of the interpreters would hold a radio. We get I calm Jeter. So the enemy didn't have any sort of encoding other communications, we could openly listen to them, and we'd have one of the interpreters this listen in in kind of here with saying, so they're planning some sort of an attack on us while we're walking heard this. So we are expecting it. The entire way became up to this hour. We're expecting a bizarre, but it was completely empty. There's. Nobody there. Go south. Yeah. So walking up to were like, well, this is not good. So we ended up just kinda coming off the main road in walking around it because we was probably good idea. Walk into a kill box. So we walked up around to the other side of the bizarre, which is where the weapons cache was supposed to be and we set up our setup our security area. And I kind of plopped down next to our tune leader. We had some guys up on the road that were a little bit west of us. But there was like a main road that kind of cut through everywhere. So we had a guy coming up on a motorcycle everybody. Everybody overseas to have a cellphone at a moped. A guy was coming up on his moped, and our film. Stop them. Start talking to e ODI was doing their thing in there. Suddenly this big blast. Then we hear gunfire. I don't I don't know. What's coming from what direction at this point time? And I just start hearing medic, you know, so I grab my bag throat on my back, and I start hauling ass over to where I see kind of a big puff of smoke, and you start just kinda running, and you don't really know where you're going. You're kind of looking for people directly. And there were there were NCO's kind of pointing my way along the way. And I just kept running until I found this guy sitting at a blast greater this e OD team leader. And you're the medic there. Yeah. Yeah. So for every platoon every element. There is typically one medic they would do like we'd have three days on three days off three days guard duty so I would be on patrol for three days. And then I would be in the clinic for six this kind of Howard medics. So I'm the only medic there. Now, we have trained some of these eleven Bravo's exemplary men to be combat lifesavers are to be everyone has a scale the become. Lifesaver? But the guys who kinda showed a propensity for medicine, we kind of picked out to be advanced lifesavers. So I had a guy who was a private or a PFC or something. So he was with me. So it was he and I the skies team the other Yoda guys had put some tickets weren't weren't effective. So when I first came on the scene, they were still trying to kind of lashed on these turn it get. So I I'd start applying for moral pressure instantly. So you see this guy. He has he has nephew tation blow the knee and in a has some kind of trauma to his other like thinking, it was left leg, amputation. Oh, actually knows left leg seemingly partial imputation, right leg. Trauma? I wasn't really sure the time. And then he had he had just had a little bit of trauma to his hand nothing too bad, but it was different seeing blood. So I was holding out holding pressure on his firm artery for his left leg while they're putting attorney gets odd and that kind of game. Me minutes kinda think about what was going on again, by I trauma, ever. I'd only ever done this hypothetically with mannequins and stuff. Yeah. There's a lot going through your mind. You are scared out of your mind. You know, you were just like being shot at. So here's the thing is that we weren't being shot at I don't know. I don't know about the gunfire. You know, we I remember hearing it in running thinking like oh shit hero. But that's the only member have gunfire. I don't know who engaged to a love. Somebody saw us like reacted to the to the blast in like shot some rounds off from the distance. I don't I don't really know. What it was? There wasn't any of our guys, which is kinda strange. You would think that's that's would be the most likely scenario we have gone through with a couple of guys before we have no idea. I thought initially that guy in the moped was via bed and vehicle borne explosive device. And there are some sort of complex. Attack involved. Now, it's not the case. So by the time, I had gotten to the sky his his team head some to consign. They weren't affective householding pressure. I switched to swapping to. And that was my big thing there. The soft t- the sort of newer cool. Turn it gets. I was like all excited about ahead like a ton of a my kit. These guys had a ton of money markets. They were throwing these off tees on could not get them to stop bleeding say my life, and I slept out for for cats for the comedy applications. See at both of them with you. Yeah. So I had I had a different set of head a had a drop leg that had all of my turn it Senate, and then I had my aid bag back. So I had all these soft. He's in my drop like, and then I had a bunch of other stuff in my bag. So I pulled my aid bag, and I just started putting on these other Turner gets because it worked better, and I set up that way because I just had never used anything. So I didn't know really what was affective. And what wasn't. Yeah. So in this case after this event, I head taken all the soft. He's like away from anywhere. I could find if I found I would just replace it with a cat even other people's like, I'm just like we're getting rid of all the shit. I've never actually uses ATI. I have used cats may do. Well, they do work in the gather like there one time in you. If you move any Turkey, you're gonna have to check in your e may have to to replace it. But they work really. Well, that's that's why they're the staple vendor staple, and you would think that soft tees would work better. I don't think they have the elasticity that cats. Do I don't know. I don't know exactly. The reason why they don't seem to work as well. Maybe it says easier air, but they didn't work in this case. So I had replied all these turn it gets. We stop the bleeding finally found out that his his lower leg was really just skin. So we were trying to hide it from his view. But this is another case of trauma patient who was completely lucid at the time. Like this. He was a staff sergeant he's in the air force air force Yoji. He was all business. He was like no medicine watch where you're stepping metal signature, and then we come to find out while we're doing this. And it's not even a find out. It should've just assume this while we running towards that. We just ran into an uncleared minefield weapons cache like this was the first walk. So like, we don't know. We don't know. What's what essentially I know? I came from behind me. I don't know where the birds get called to hopefully, we're going to be good and this. This was the guy with a Vallon, you know. Yeah. This was the bomb so eleven Bravo's have vans as well. But his big thing was no medal signature. He did not have a metal signature on the thing that he stepped on which was a more complex idee, which kinda that like your own danger. So he was all business from the start from the minute. We got there. The sky missing half a one leg the at legs messed up. So he's still getting directions after the injury. Yeah. After the injury. He's still like trying to make sure nobody else obscenity. He's these bad stand up. Yeah. He is a bad. He's still a badass, by the way. That's how the story ends. He still bad ass. Spoiler. So, but you can kinda tell you can kind of gauge how he's doing even his pain based on you know, how how he's talking. He went from like, you know, Nobel signature watcher stepping this thing very Iran business than slowly in another part of the story is the amount of time that had passed slowly time passes. He starts talking about his wife and kids, you know, that it's like, hey, if I don't make tell him this just tell my wife that I love her till this at no thing it, so you can kind of gauge based on that dialogue that hey, you know, he's starting to feel payments doing well. And I'm sure that genuine is coming down that initial. Yeah. Totally. So and we have morphine onboard in this anthem we've Ivy initiated we're doing what we can do like I said like tell you do we stop the bleeding that point. I made earlier like I didn't understand the idea that hey, you stop material bleeding, but you're gonna get Venus using. So you're seeing blood comes still slowly, but it's still coming. And you're like, hey, I haven't stopped this bleed yet in that's one of those things that you don't talk training only kind of experience kinda shows you that in it make sense. But at the time, you're like what the hell and it did dawn on me while I was doing it at that sexual we had encountered here. I should stop digging around with these turn it gets. But at the same time, it's on your mind. Leila's don't feel like you need to be busy doing something. I should be doing more when you're Chuck. And and you know, we have that these decisions in our head that the talk about like that massive extremity hammer, just the number one thing that preventable injury. Seventy percent of them can be saved beating your head in. The course. Yes, I'm like I need to stop this. AM which I have to you know. And it was stopped and the more complex thing was the other the other life as you expose it. You see some peppering. You see a lot of trauma on like. Whoa. What's going on here? He had a spiral fracture is actually what happened so tip or tip to actually I don't I don't know entirely. How high up but went I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure it's pretty I two thinks I spent I spent it above the knee. But I think as says precaution. So you know, you have a tournament newest stuff the lead in. I e Sam split you do that clean his hand as well. I don't remember. I don't even remember his injury to his hand in the funny thing when I when I did the interview for this book the guy who had hit written it Bryant was like. Yeah. So what was going on with his hand? I don't recall. I don't remember his hand being injured at all that I treat his hand. He's like, well, I think so because it had been bandaged, and there's a lot of standing it was like, oh that must have happened when I was on the ground. But I don't remember there's so many traumas. But I mean, his always. Stuck out to mix? It was my first, of course. So you know, we splintered that leg we had attorney could stop the bleeding. The turn kid we, you know, head kinda packed up the remaining appendage, it was still attached. But we didn't really want him to see it too much. So we kinda hit it from his view get a ni- VN. He had morphine onboard guys have ketamine at this time. No in ketamine wasn't very widely used when I was overseas as like normal practice, but we used it based on my PA and our senior line medics experience. So we did have it eventually got adventure in we had used it for trauma patients, but not at this point. This was the first one that we have encountered this was like two thousand twelve that. Right. And I think that's when ketamine started to get on CBS now at super-popular, his great. Yeah. Get a lot a lot of conversations for like does have the same analgesic effect morphine will. Yes, studies show it does. And is a better for popular because we were saying. -application for that as well. So some kind of been working into our Petar doesn't have cardiovascular effects, which is great for this traumas. Yeah. Yeah. You don't see much respiratory depression in that sort of thing which would have been great to head known before. I got there. But again you adjust fire his you learn stuff and whatnot. So we were using. But we had started using it the first time I actually remember coming out was for like, a really really bad Gibernau on a on a younger patient, but not not for like regular trauma might senior line medic at it. Our treatment NCO headed I didn't have it in my eight bag was just wasn't part of our load. Hell, yeah. So for this guy, we only had morphine, and he is he's a big, dude. Like, the sky was big guy. So I think I give him a couple of my top them up a couple of times because our wait time was really long, and he was the one the pointed out the patient was one that said like, hey, I don't hear bird the area. And I was like oh shit. How much time has gone by? And this is this is a story that I tell every single time I go to or teach an army. EMS class when it comes to the misreport. It me with this report. So so we have our nine lines that we call just to get a medical evacuation apparatus in the air to you in some shit perform which consist of where you are what type of patient you have into need extra stuff with the areas like all these different considerations. And then you're Mr. port is more specific to what's going on like, you know, your mechanism of injury treatments that sort of thing. So in the case of this. It's that telephone it's that you're willing information to non medical people who relating information tonight, medical people who are relying information to non medical people who are eventually relent information to medical. So at the time when I happened upon my Beijing, I had called it out as a bilateral amputation because just seeing the blood sing one partial I made the assumption there two parcels, so that's what I called out. So our te'o called it up to our talk has a bilateral. 'putative and they called it up to higher and so on and so forth, so higher cut it as bilateral laceration, Ono and downgraded. Our our flight L now. Yeah. So there's all this radio chatter back and forth about it. Again. You're the medic ground. You have no idea any of this going on you're treating your patient. So the patient brings up the, hey, I don't hear burden air and I call back. Hey, what's the time when the bird in there like white one? And that I never get a response. So eventually randomly without warning a bird touches on the ground. Oh sweet. Okay. So yeah. So we have on this FOX trot litter, which is like a very small it's like a miniature skid. It's awesome for carrying around can't speak highly enough of these people that don't know scared. You explain that to be scared is like I it's rolled up really thick plastic. You can just slide over the really fun. If someone like pulled around in them. Take it really really hot. It's it's like a really cheap like sled like, I don't know. It's like a flexi sled sued that like Ben's, but like wraps around you as well lead for casualties, which is probably the scant. I. So yours a smaller. But this one was smaller, and I'd never experienced it. We just had them in the station. We played with announced this phenomenal because it's so much smaller. Yeah. They're pretty big scam. It doesn't have the the sides that roll up L. So it's a smaller. It was great in this first patient we use. It was like a pretty big guy. Like, I said so based fit on it. But he's still on. It's a six lift, you know, so we got six men, and we lifted him up, and we danced way back through the minefield, and we got to this Black Hawk, and I did my best fastest breakdown of my patient. I was like he had more at this time into turn. It gets worse this time and yet is reading off to this guy under the blades of this Blackhawk. He's looking at me, and I get done. He says okay turned on walks away. And I'm like there's no way in how he got that. And I thought the exchange was so weird thinking like how I remember like having to like sort of like motion with my documentation again. So that he took it like he was going to go. So he took my documentation any left to. They flew away. Enya? We work our way back to hyena route Haina goes through the horn Pange way, so my outpost with you have the Arghanab come down into the Dory and the Hornets essentially where they meet so we're kind of disrupted area in like the red desert's south of that. So Haina drives to the point almost. So we're kind of just right off of that. We kinda get back to route. I wanna and when I got back. I remember my battalion commander who was super intimidating, dude. He was like captain America, the student society C was superintendent superintending any pulls as a private at the time. He was like pert Hopkins say we're really sorry about what happened out there. I'm like, okay. Okay, sir. That's it's not a problem. You know, like his we're really we're really proud of what you did and yadda yadda. And I had no idea what he was talking about. Until I talked to our P who told me like all the radio chatter. He had hopped in our which we knew sadder medical evect. We hadn't actually driven anywhere. He our treatment NCO. Some other group of Bravo's went security in strove strikers out there. We hadn't driven money where the route was unclear they destroyed, and they waited for me like at the closest point on hyena waiting for me to bring the patient, and I had no idea there, you know, there's all this other drama going because of this messed up radio call. So then, you know, flash forward a few years, you know, when I'm out of f- ghanistan out of Alaska, and I'm sitting in a bar in the Niagara county New York area talking to this to this guy who wrote this book, and he was like, hey, by the way, you know, we track down what had happened and some guys were doing a fly by a Black Hawk and caught the radio chatter, like some non medical personnel. They caught the radio chatter, and they decided that they were gonna pick up your casualty and they're the ones stopped in. They weren't the PJ's. They were just like some dudes. So will that make sense because I read off all this medical stuff? And they were like, okay sounds good. Yeah. And it's funny reading this book, you get some of the the casualties point of view about these private cetera in the back of the Blackhawk need like refers to them as robots like motor probably mortified at this like mangled, dude. Like not part of the mission. You know, how did you get here? Like, they wouldn't know what to do anyway. So God craziness. That's the guy's fine. The efforts. Yes of the airforce guy. He's fine. He's doing fine relatively. Yeah. I don't think it stayed below the knee an above the knee, amputation. He has a really good press static. He is like a phenomenal duties a firefighter now, we're friends on Facebook. That's yeah. He reached out like very quickly after injury wanting to know some very specific details, you know, kinda kept up with them and stuff. He's like powerlifter. Just he does all these phenomenal things like phenomenal things for people with all of their benefits. And just the fact that he he does it with one less leg as amazing. So she's living his dream become. Coming firefighter now. So that you get to follow them. Yeah. He's one of very few. I I have a couple of casualties that have Facebook. But I don't think some of them know that I was there in some cases is a very interesting part of being military MAC. Daddy, wouldn't you? Don't get incivility medicine. You don't follow? I mean, I can follow people professionally in primary care. But in any m s I didn't if I ever found happened to somebody. It was on news that they died. Yeah. It, you know, it's kind of a rare thing even a military medicine, but based on the unit, right? And in this case sky wasn't he was in the air force. But we had known a lot of the same people. And he kinda shocked me out a some of the other people were like soldiers for my unit. So I think I was already friends Facebook pain. So are there any other storage on talk about anything about coming back to civilian medicine or so I said even coming back to civilian medicine for me? It was actually just coming to civilian medicine. I wasn't associated anyway with. And I'm and I had a hard time with it initially. Because of you know, you come back you come out of your deployment of fire and brimstone fire gabelli and wanting to do the stuff in the new rank up, and you start overseeing soldiers after I'd gotten back, and I was like I said, I was a private when I was deployed became a specialist while I was there. I got my five and Kim sergeant I didn't really know what that meant a I and I finally got the unity to kind of get some soldiers under me, and then that sort of led to the spot of for the forward aid station for some field problems. We had coming up. So I got the opportunity to actually like, you know, the NCO see this aid station kinda learned a little bit. And then I just sort of stayed there. Didn't I didn't leave this headquarters element? Our main NCO this e seven left, and we didn't have a replacement for him. So I kinda took over those duties as well, so I became this like e five who is in charge of these forty nine and doing all the stuff. That was like way above my pay grade like way, above my knowledge base, my general like leadership ability, but you adapt you kind of debt over come. You know? Which all the officers that were involved in that process for like super understanding and gave me a lot of leeway in like new that is on this big learning curve, and they were really great. And when I was when overstepping my balance, sometimes it necessarily fuck me down right away. So that was very kind of them. Appreciate it. But you know, coming out of that scenario. Suddenly like, you're your the MTO in charge of everybody. And now you're out of the military now you're in a civilian hospital. And you're literally at the lowest like the entry level nursing physician. It's kind of a big culture shock. I was an advanced EMT when you go through your military training. You come out of it being back than it was EMT Di basically t now I think just the tea and I wanted to get my paramedic before I left the military, but I didn't have enough time and service to go through the entire program. So I went with advanced EMT in that I moved Massachusetts where they don't really use van thought it off. So I was working as an entry level nursing position. And I was learning cardiology stuff, and it was great. But at the same time, there's all these things you see in the hospital that are just normal functions of your day to day in the military like putting IV's drawing blood. And that sort of thing, and you know, you really wanna take the paternity to show the things that you're good at and just because of your position, you know, you don't when you're in the military. You don't think about things like legal liability in like, yeah. You know, things that hospitals worry about start starting IV's all willy nilly, but in the military like sharing you wanna learn here. Go ahead, and you can do like I remember like doing dental block on an Afghan local national because there is no other way that he would possibly get a tooth pulled. My PA was like our will put the sun a block on Upolu. And I was like I used area, sir. And that's just what you do when you're overseas because that's what has to happen. You know, these people need some sort of treatment, and they can't find it anywhere else that not happen in when that happens to different types of medicine. I would not do at dental block, and I would not whole someone's teeth as inter factors ner. It was a very strange situation 'cause I had walked complete different story. But this is that I'm very clinical that I told you about. He he was reading a book. There's a local national sitting on one of our trauma tables with another friend there in interpreter as well. And he was reading his look at this real quick read this what what are you reading? We kinda talked about a little bit. Okay. Great. And I was like why reading this on both tooth? You wanna help like? Yeah. Okay. Do you know where this location is? Can you find landmark like, yeah? I think so. And then you know, we we did it. So it's interesting. It's interesting thing like, you know, doing everything then coming to a situation that you really just can't. And it's a big part of that is understanding that you can't. And why you can't I fought it for a while. I as okay, if it's just like the name of my position, let's change the might position to something else. Like, I watch these Iran's do not great IV's or not great blood draws or they struggle with it. You know, and like I do what I can to instruct which isn't necessarily well received because not everyone knows your history or. Not one. The very not. Well, this happened quite a bit. There's been nurses that have been like we've had patients who are like in respiratory distress in there like he's a lot of pain should ID morphine. And I'm like, no. And maybe see be the one telling you know, you shouldn't push morphine on this person restore stress, you know, like, but at the same time, there's another side of the coin is like you come from. You know, this traumatic -mergency medicine background in you don't necessarily know how things would function in hospital setting in certain emergencies. We would send them to the hospital, which is where these people are already doing medicine. So I made into this issue when I was doing my undergrad nursing seminars. Student even at the lowest low again, and I had done ten years during nine one EMS end people like you have no idea what you're talking about. Now. I was like no nursing instructors who had done something where they didn't do anything like trauma, stabbings erred. They had no idea. Like, we do this do that. You're not I'll shut your mouth. So I yeah, I get it. It's it's hard. It's starting frustration. You wanna go to the level you are at and then keep going not take a step back and be taken it from someone. That's gonna be yet. I mean, this two factors. There's there's your pride which you you need to not not be factor essentially, and then there's like patient safety in like, I will always be up when it comes to patients in that. It's something that you just have to accept like maybe I won't make snide remark when I see somebody doing something not one hundred percent, right. But isn't detrimental to a patient or patient safety? It must be little comforting having worked in pediatric critical care before having child. I think it helped for sure especially like being not only working in pediatrics, but also like being CNN pediatrics changing, lots of diapers comforting lots of babies, I think that definitely helped my own baby. So that definitely disregard me say daddy's busy. Can you say plant cast? So. Can you hear her cameo appearance? Yeah. Yet. I think sometimes I talk about this big difference between the military side the civilian side. It's based on my experiences that when you're in the military when you're a medic with the infantry, you know, you you kind of need to keep a certain professional distance, and it's hard because like these are the guys who live with your friends, and you know, in my own experience. I would keep my platoon length. Sometimes just because they were the guys who have I was out and about I was going to have to treat and emotions definitely, you know, they're factor when you have to treat somebody like you need to think clearly you can't be kind of overcome that being said like you kinda like recede into your medics. They're your family that you you kind of a moat with more than anyone else. And then they get injured. And then you like like, I remember this. We had this one. It's actually the same incident where that trip Lampe told you earlier had happened. But we had a medic it hit on one of our hops. And I w-. Actually, I wasn't part of Michael tune anymore. I had the medico delayed his deployment because he was having a kid got the country and he took over that spot. I kinda went back to my old spotted fourth tune. So I was in the Pfister Vic the vehicle for the guys who call him different things the element that was patrolling to contact. It was a it was this this operating that was kind of joint with this engineering sapper unit launch out the apes, they should Iraq it for a chain with debt cord on it in they launch it forward on a path. And then the sensitivity debt for any ideas that are long path they went on this this operation of just did that Donna path. So our elmo's polling security form. So our first platoon element was security for them and the medic, and this element was actually like one of the younger one of the Bax though on that had no this is a different medical the guy who had a kid just took me out of my spot. But that wasn't the element. That was out. This is this is I pushing. So they were doing their thing. He was out there with his guys, and they took some contact, and I'm a little unclear as to what exactly was hit them, but some sort of larger some larger caliber something had passed between his legs, and it caused some trauma to sty he wasn't shot necessarily, but he had a big chunk of style. That was missing. So if I remember being in the vehicle, and they had called his battle roster number in this case, it was CL's something something, and I'm thinking CEO who is that who sale in the only person, I think of one of my medics, not my medics, but like one of my fellow medics. So I like hopped out of the truck, and I sprinted across this this CPA that we had set up that was not really cleared, but really think about the collection point command point in this case. So like, we had our all of our strikers were out in the center of that was, you know, the commanders vehicles and stuff in the command vehicles. So they fell back. To the commanders vehicles Nyland from there. So we had like this medic in then one of the Afghan police guys will hit so all of the medics conversion this point in like, we're all really focusing on this one medic that that was a an easel K like he was fine. But we turn kit the shit out of you know, in dresses wounded that we took the end cap guys. Well, but you know, like, we definitely responded more emotionally because that was like, hey, that's one of our own. Yeah. Of course, that's the whole reason why you like, you know, you kinda keep certain people at arm's length while you're overseas. Now that being said, you take that mentality as a medic in you translate that to pediatric cardiology, you know, you need to release these to get them to trust. You. You can't really keep them at arm's length emotionally, they relate he more doing the opposite. By like, you kind of being emotional with them and kind of connecting with them in that regard. So that was a huge takeaway a huge difference for me from the civilian side to the to the military side was like a lot of these kids in impatient. Especially like, I built a relationship with because they needed them to. Trust me for me to do my job. Well. Well, thank you for letting me take up so much of your Saturday night. Oh, yeah. No, not a problem at all. Not a prominent. Thank you for having me. This has been a nice conversation sale before we go. You're actually a singer songwriter. And you make the podcast amazing. Custom inter music that we heard at the beginning of the episode, and I'm going to be playing one of your original songs at the end of the episode. Do you wanna plug your social media, and you too? I do have a music to channel. I have so few followers that I don't even have a easy short YouTube name, but WW Pete sing things dot com. 'cause I'm Pete. And I occasionally sing things in then post them on the internet. You can follow that that address will get to there. So. Yeah. So I did a bunch of videos last year because I was trying out for the voice at the urging of my sister-in-law, and it was it was super fun. I used to play music when I was a lot younger I kinda stopped because I was like in the military and stuff I just kinda got back into it was a lot of fun. So I think I'm going to actually start doing it again really soon yet Pete sings things dot com. And yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate spend a lot of fun. Thank you for being here. And if anyone wants to listen to more episodes, they can subscribe always give some ratings or reviews and follow us on social media, Facebook and Instagram are antidotes podcasts. Twitter is antidotes pod. Might Twitter is Christine N P, and I will see on this week. The. The. In the. Now.

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E1102 The Next Unicorns E15: Zero Mass Water CEO Cody Friesen is perfecting drinking water with hydropanels, aiming to create essential resource UBI for the world

This Week in Startups

1:34:29 hr | 3 months ago

E1102 The Next Unicorns E15: Zero Mass Water CEO Cody Friesen is perfecting drinking water with hydropanels, aiming to create essential resource UBI for the world

"Season Two of the next UNICORNS is brought to you by Lincoln jobs. A business is only as strong as people and every higher matters get fifty dollars off your first job post at linked in dot. COM SLASH UNICORN. And broker the broker startup insurance program help startup secure the most important lines of insurance at lower cost and with less hassle. Go to broker dot com slash angel and get ten percent off by using code Angel Ten. and send US listen to Zen desks new podcast. Sit Down start up to hear conversations with the send desks leaders and the founders CEO's and makers on how to start up even when the world goes topsy turvy download and subscribe on spotify apple or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of this week in startups. We started a series last year. Thank called the next UNICORNS SUNA Koren's Can We said, let's look for companies that we think fit a certain profile they Typically, they're building a product that has the possibility. If not the probability to change the world it typically these companies have a founder who is so aligned with that mission that they will fight to their last dying breath to see the mission succeed and they build a product or service that the world. Needs and we have had a tremendous season so far We had Daphne Kohler who is with NC tro and she's using machine learning and ai to try to find drugs that can solve all the different diseases that we suffer from an incredible. Incredible. Mission and then we had a new. Packet from homebound trying to solve for building more homes the housing. Crisis. Real that we had gary from a roof stock on. And we had spencer from cockroach. Labs we've, You know to bill databases that are redundant and to solve the big data problems in the world and today we're GonNa talk about something that everybody needs and everybody is literally the foundation of our lives, which is water right and say welcome to the program Cody Friesen from zero mass water. A great to be with Jason. And paradoxically. I just got off podcast with my good friend rick full of from desktop metal who you happen to know as well. How do you know? Rick? Going back to they went to three days his CO founder Yangchang and I go way back to when I did my shit. Mit. Rick is just a phenomenal entrepreneurs you know yes super. High. Energy. Yes. Relentlessly positive relentlessly positive thinks outside the box thinks ahead of the curve. necessary but insufficient condition is that people think that you're nuts when you start down the path that becomes a company. Often at the vanguard on that front as you know. So yeah, no big mutual fans of Rick and that I guess leads us zero masks water, which is you know sometimes the the biggest problems and the longest odds are the ones that are worth pursuing tell everybody what zero masks waters mission is in. Well our vision is to perfect water for every person, every place and my background. The last circuit twenty years has been in the renewable energy space and sort of traditional renewable energy and I found it a battery company all fluid energy took global. Served two terms as the CO chair of the Energy Committee on US Manufacturing Council during the Obama Years Thinking about. You. Know kind of the costs down that salt was going to happen in solar that now did happen that costs down that was going to happen lithium ion that now did happen and what was next what was going to be next in renewable energy? when I think when most people think about renewable energy, they think about renewable electricity. Sure, the the global energy mix right only about twenty percent of it is electrically the rest of it is. Transportation embedded energy in the food you eat better energy in the water you drink in the stuff you buy the embedded energy, these headphones and Cetera Song. and. So the idea was, could we apply the principles renewable energy to resources and what's the most critical resource on the planet drinking water? You know you've had a couple of guests on in this latest season or series folks on Housing Reit base of Maslow's hierarchy food water shelter right? You can't get to those next levels unless you have those basic fundamental needs met and so. That idea of okay. Let's let's do for water. What solar did for TRYSOFI and we? Make it ubiquitous in free. Yeah. So one right distributed to infrastructure free. And three, and most importantly, I think most people miss this point. Zero feedstock cost right sunlight am case of source hydro panels, sunlight and air. Okay and so because it's zero feedstock dot cost you can just like you can do in solar effectively program the cost of operating for dozens of years so zero feedstock. Was the last word in that phrase cost cost. So zero feedstock cost means that acquiring the asset acquiring the resource is zero. And if they an and also you said it's distributed. So solar once you've paid for the panel. The electricity is free and you don't need to be connected to anything. So you now are unconstrained. So what you hope to do with zero mass water is what a solar panel does for somebody. WHO'S LIVING Off The grid, just to use a word, they can get electricity without having Toronto wire to their house. You want to get water to that house without them having to run a pipe. Am I correct precisely? How does that happen? How does that manifest itself in terms of technology? Yeah. So my background I'm a material scientist. And the simplest way to think about how source works is to think about. You know a good example is like the sugar and a sugar bowl lid off over time it gets a little bit clumpy, right? Yeah and it does that because it's absorbing water vapor from the air because the sugar the sci-fi word is that it's pick right? Hi, Dr Skopje, it's absorbing do. With a Gross Skopje, which means it's absorbing water water vapor. Yep. and. So now imagine that not sugar but now a nanostructures material that does that same process very fast. So concentrates the water vapor in the air by about ten thousand times by volume. and. Then we use sunlight to basically spy that water vapor backout inside of the Hydra Powell and therefore produce a condensed vapor that then is passively condensed inside the panel. Okay, so I just want to stop for one second to make following there is a panel. And the panel goes on the top of your house or next to your house, and the panel has some type of Nanno fiber or tubes are technology in IT, which is a fancy way of saying small materials. So a material that has very fine pore structure so that it perfectly holds water molecules. Perfect. So in a way in the sugar analogy. Sugar might be very good at doing this. It seems like anytime I've had a bag of potato chips on a boat or you know at the Beach House. There Soghi very quickly because of the same effect. So you're saying, let's ten thousand that effect and let's make these soggy potato chips in clumpy sugar real fast, and then have the sun. Do It's process by heating this panel in some way to make it absorbed more. Moisture from the air correct. Correct and we run that cycle many many many times per day in order to produce a sizable amount of water, and then of course, that sort of the the elegant material science part of the solution, and then there's the kind of the machine learning element deterministic algorithms. There's the competition fluid dynamics that they're mathmatics that is sort of solving an eight dimensional problem every single second of the day in. And so then you end up with a very efficient process. Got It so there have been solutions to pull water from the air like there, but it's typically energy inefficient to do so so. When you have a room that is just too much moisture in it you have a dehumidifier. So in a restaurant or in a location, you might have dehumidify your turn on the dehumidifier. Energy is sucking the air into it. It's going through some type of filtration system, and at the end of the next day, you have a bucket of water. It's pulled the air out of the water. So the water in your apartment to whatever space isn't too wet, but that requires plugging in and using electricity, which is inefficient. Typically, how those work is a sort of like an air conditioning unit almost hold surface inside and you are literally directly condensing that excess moisture out. So yeah, it's very energy-intensive and it needs to be actually relatively high humidity. Making I'm making water my roof today. It's probably five to ten percent relative humidity out here in Scottsdale. So We. Work at a very low. Relative humidity and also obviously with no electrical input no. Clearly no pipe input. Okay. So in order to do this, you would put on your house some series of panels that would act as a way to collect water what do those panels cost and to outfit a home that You know has a family of five in it how many panels and at what cost would it be to do that today? So today and just for a single home in the US which obviously, not very, very much of economies of scale if you're just doing one or two panels on home, sure. Let's say for a family of five two panels. So each panel does up to about five liters of. Water a day, which is to put an American context sort of ten standard sixteen ounce bottles of water a day pronounce it'd be like a case of bottled water per day. So you get a bottle of water from two of these panels and I'm looking at a panel now but because I'm looking at the panel at your website, there's nobody standing next to it. So I don't know if this is the size of a car where the size of a laptop. What is it the size of this? The Hydro Panel that you have a website? Yes. Sort of the size like a sheet of plywood. Arts. Seventy two inch TV screen. Yeah. Perfect. Yep. Okay. So I put to TV screens on my roof of my house and it looks pretty elegant and then I now have a case of drinking water. And I'm off grid and it doesn't need to be plugged into electricity or does zero united set one up in the middle of the desert and fifteen minutes and half an hour. Later he declared war. When we get back from this quick break, I want to know what the cost of those panels are today and what the cost of those panels will be in ten years in two thousand eight when we get back on this we started. Right brass tacks. Let's get right to it. 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You know it's the best job platform and world period end of. Story, there is no discussion. There is no debate lincoln jobs is the best place to hire. So when you're ready to make that perfect hire I want you to go to Lincoln Dot com slash Unicorn. That's right Lincoln Dot com slash Unicorn, which is what you're building right now. You building a Unicorn Company and you'll get fifty dollars off your first job posting. That is an amazingly generous gift. Thank you to my friends at Lincoln for doing this terms and conditions do apply because pits fifty bucks and you get fifty five from J. cale and Lincoln Hexagon again linked into for supporting independent media. Ours speaking of which, let's get back dismissing episode. All right everybody. Welcome back to this week in startups. It is episode five of the next unicorns sooner corns, cody freezing but it's about F. R. I S. E. N.. Correct hope and it's cody a freezing on twitter I. Don't know how active is the CO founder of zero mass water got his PhD from a little place known as Mit in somewhere in the northeast I've been there a couple of times and we're looking at this panel. Here is What do you? What's his name? What's the exact name of zero masks panel? Hydro Panel Source Hydro Panel. It's about the size of a seventy, two inch flat screen TV. Two of them make a case of bottled water. That's fantastic. It's not enough for everybody to take a shower but certainly, in Zombie apocalypse, these would come in handy. What is the cost of these panels today and what will the cost in two thousand thirty if you had to make a guess yeah. So. Today in the US context on your home for two thousand dollars a panel. So. Okay. What that equates to effectively is about one tenth, the cost bottled water about the same cost, the fifteen year life, the panels as an under sink ro system. I don't know what that means under single systems ask those under saint kind of reverse osmosis systems that you put in place that. Home Depot, and then you kind of replace these You mean the ones that are to the water. Yeah. Next level filter fuel so you're hydro panel is the water coming out of their perfect water is perfectly clean and does it do the filtration there or is the water in our air that is going through these in some way dirty because there could be airplane exhaust or whatever in the air Yeah so It's an easy starting point to talk about US residences but yeah Ardian forty-five countries and we're in Mexico City as an example. Jakarta Mumbai. Okay. So you're a place where two hundred particles a day is not unheard of laid. Tell me what happens in a two hundred particle place like per California during the wildfires or Mumbai every day. Sadler Scottsdale now, all the fires go God bless help firefighters out there doing that work. I mean the bravest people in the world. It's remarkable actually just as an aside, we have a great volunteer fire department out in my my area in Iran the the water tender tender truck a couple of weeks ago for them knows hotshot crews are amazing. One, hundred, fifteen degrees out they jumped into the Bush at three PM I see their headlamps up and up on the hill at like two o'clock in the morning I mean what heroes I'm merely as I always told my brother, my my my baby brother, who's a firefighter and just recently retired We spent a lot of time at nine eleven cleaning up the mess. The the bravery of running into a burning building when everybody else in every instinct tells you to run away from fire. I mean I literally, I'm showing my middle finger right now, I've got a blister. Because I burned myself making a pop tart and I got a second degree burn in. Getting burned is like the worst experience I think like I if you think about. Injuries that suck really an are terrorizing on human psyche level fire is. Perhaps, drowning is the only one I'm now. Fire above drowning in terms of our horrific death, they could be. And these firefighters run into harm's way to save people complex you So, back to these panels. Is, the water in Jakarta is the water in Shenzhen. Pick a place where maybe air quality is is is a challenge for whatever reasons. Does the water come out dirty and then has to be cleaned or does the water come out clean as the processes panel? Yes Oh from a theory perspective right the there's A. Selective process for those water molecules because they're highly polar and then it's sort of like a double distillation process. So in principle, the water should be effectively doubled still by the time it's in the reservoir. From a practice perspective, we've done these measurements consistently over you know, as I mentioned, forty five different countries, and that is in fact, what happens? So the water starts out distilled and we then then run it through a block adds calcium and magnesium brings the Ph up. So the water has sort of A. soft mouth feel and a crisp finish. So early, truly better than what you're used to drinking. And then inside each panel, there's an nation system keeps it sterile? No bacteria build up waters, the stuff of life both good and bad right Things growing your water get funky. Yeah, and then every single source hyder panel is connected to the cloud to Saturday Bay sitting on aws. So around the globe or seeing in real time, you know rather than thinking about just the two panels on the rooftop you know hundreds of panels and a community in Australia or a couple dozen panels at an equal resort in south, East Asia. Or at a school in San Baru Kenya wherever it may be or we just did a couple dozen homes in the Navajo. Nation. Where has they have only one hundred, fifty, thousand people an area land the size of West Virginia Yeah. Third. Fifty four thousand people have no water at their home unbelievable while show the cost of these panels today. Again, what you said, the each panel cost, what two thousand bucks, two, thousand bucks per panel. So the two of them it'd be for those militias go at the two thousand you've been working on this for how many years. Closed, the series, a and May of Twenty fifteen. So we've been out for five years. What was it costing you in Twenty Sixteen, two, thousand, seventeen when you had the first couple prototypes, I'm assuming per panel prototype level I mean as all machine part so you're probably talking. Twenty Thirty Thousand Dollars Picot. Okay. So you went from in the prototypes twenty-five thirty thousand dollars now you're at but two thousand. Price if you build a million of these in twenty thirty, what would the COSBY per panel? So Yeah to so I yeah. Volume and obviously engineering for manufacture ability bub-bubba probably I'd say in the four or five hundred range let's say I mean that's probably conservative it could be cheaper. But I think as importantly we're also on this Moore's law learning curve from the point of view of performance. So we're not at the thermodynamic limit of what's possible and so I think there's another. Factor of two to three on that side. You're looking at, you know a factor. So instead of having to buy three of them by one of them and have the same performance because of a I, Material Science and other efficiencies you're going to add to it in the same way. Tesla, has gotten better at being more dynamic being lighter and you know recharging the batteries more efficiently. Yeah a couple of things there you know. Fundamentally, we ultimately will be the lowest cost landed landed cost potable water in the world. ultimately being in ten years, twenty years or thirty years. If you had to pick a decade I'm I'm an entrepreneur. So let's say seven years. Okay. Great I. Love It. In seven years cheaper than anything out there the water is cleaner. and so when you look at the world and you think about the problem of drinking water and clean drinking water, what what is the state in twenty twenty? I'm recording this because people will be watching the document You know one hundred years from now is the reason I do the podcast honestly is I know one hundred years from now people are GonNa, WanNa know how you got it and we we're sitting here chopping it up. What is The footprint of people without clean drinking water today half of the people on the planet ballpark how many need this today? That's this is where it gets crazy to me because depending on where you look get all kinds of different numbers, right so you'll get like who number that's eight hundred million people don't have water. Well, those are people that are literally walking for water. It's actually about a third of the planet about two and a half billion people that don't have. Consistent safe water that comes to their home. Got It and then that doesn't even count like Mexico, city residents or Mumbai residence or whomever that don't drink that water the can't drink that water they have water coming. That is like Flint Right? We had. What's IT Flint in the United States where we had an Aladdin, the water show if you. Add to that even today those two and a half billion people. for a mere if I'm doing my math correctly, if it was one dollar for Pan it was two dollars for a panel, those two and a half for five. Billion Dollars could have it and if we had three for five trillion dollars. We could today for five trillion dollars which seems like a lot of money but literally nothing. These could be deployed and the idea of people having to walk miles for dirty water or drink dirty water or filtered water would go away in other words the problem's been solved. We just have not deployed it. Precisely. Think about just two numbers. There are three thousand, five, hundred jurisdictions in the United States with the exact, same promise. Flint. Three thousand five, hundred years the same promising. God One are the number one. The second number I'll give you is that the Flint settlement just now? That was six hundred, million dollars. Yes it put source out panels on every roof for one twentieth of that about thirty or forty million dollars, and so we get back from this quick break I want to understand how you plan to to deploy this and scale this business because many times the solution is they are whether it's electric batteries and Tesla, and you know what? He's the work he's done there or solar or now water we literally have the solution and we have an inability to execute effectively on deployment I want to know what your deployment strategy is when we get back on this week in startups. 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And capital allocators picking problems to solve for society has been the most effective system for increasing the quality of life of humanity period end of story. If you want debate this with me you can, but you will lose the debate even with somebody who's an experience debater like myself my guest today his proof positive. We have the ability for every person on the planet to have clean drinking water for but five trillion dollars which to give you. Some context is what we're printing today to deal with this pandemic and putting stimulus tax by the end of the day probably gonNA put five thrown to work. That's just in the United States. We can solve this so Cody. We we have the technology it's going to get ten x cheaper and more efficient. We just know how Moore's law and efficiency and AI are all spiraling to make things work better. What is your go to market strategy? How do you plan on getting these things out there because right now, what we're looking at is not A solution problem but a distribution problem. Yeah really good question. At the top, I'd mentioned you that vision for this company, right which is perfect water for every person every place right and the word perfect is chosen very explicitly to represent something that is aspirated. That bar has to continue to rise right it's never done. We now have the technology entitled to that vision. We have to earn the execution entitlement to that vision to your point, right so we say, Oh, we're now in forty five countries will how did we do that I mean we're only been around for five years hard tech start that's a lot We have a big distribution and it's all about for us. It's all about leveraging the ecosystem that was built on the backs of last. I guess three decades in the solar space you solar installer dealers in every corner of the world that if themselves seen massive margin compression bad for them good for the world in the solar space and here is A. Another product technology that installs very similarly actually simpler because there's no high voltage DC right. They just have to screw it down and run a pipe like you do not need to have an electrician. Yeah. Exactly. Once it see sunlight it basically reaches out to our our cloud in in itself commission. So it straightforward week do this all over the place in really tough places that you know been. underserved for a long time all the way to very high end. You know both multibillionaires homes in Berkeley to parts of Puerto, Rico after Hurricane Maria or you know the full spectrum So it really is about how do we efficiently continue to ramp? Both sort of production efficiency, get the economies of scale and that side but also the other. We've sort of been able to benefit from all the learnings and solar is you may remember the P. that purchase the power purchase agreement in solar space. Property. P P P tells you the sign of the Times given the? covid response stuff but anyway. We have something very similar WPA water purchase agreements and that as you might imagine, has kick the doors open on the scale of the types of contracts were signing. The current largest one is ten thousand panel array that's going in and Dubai. We have multiple multi thousand panel, raise it of that either have gone or going in Australia. And we do work with everything from private industry, mining groups, hotels, etc. All the way to governments and NGOs. And I never think about the tension between those things They are all good good for business. Good for good for what we're trying to do for the world. At the end of the day the more panels you move the lower, the price gets, and that's good and that's capitalism. So when we saw the Senate or House hearings on. Amazon, basics competing you know that the competition there'll be other competitors. desalinization is one obviously that comes to mind the other people competing to get water to people's homes including the water utilities that we have. How do they feel about you? How did the Desalinization Industry Look at you? If I were to say what's better you know about desalinization ask them you know to criticize you what would they say the desalinization crew because there's a crew saying, Hey, desalinization solution. Yeah absolutely, and and diesel is a solution. Diesel is a solution in certain places certain context where. Or capital is is cheap where infrastructure is good right? You're still making the water in a centralized place and has to be over be able to get from one side of the hill to the other right can you need the network, right? Yeah and all the other things right. Then it's energy intensive and there's a big Economic extra analogy that don't doesn't. You normally get a account effort, which is the Brian that sent back to the ocean, which sealife and is a big problem. But. Like when we when we think about for example, a sin in Dubai or or you a in general right ninety, eight, ninety, nine percent of their water call it one hundred percent of their water comes from diesel. And, we I engaged those guys you know four years ago or so they're like, well, we have all this decide on why we ever Yahoos you. Well, they have huge issues in the streets are news and in the Persian Gulf with sealife life death with the connection between energy security and water security right? It's one thing if your lights go off, it's everything if you don't have any freshwater period right and so on and so now we are actually deeply part one kills you one doesn't. Right literally one causes people to ride in the streets and die and the other one cosby very frustrating like candles. And to to put a finer point on this Brian issue, the the way desalinization works as best as I know is you use a bunch of energy to push the water saltwater through filters that take the salt out, but then you redeposit that back in the water. And you kill some wildlife in the process. To some degree but you're causing a problem of. F, ING with the balance of the water. So if if you rely on too much, it can kill sea life and it still requires pipes to go everywhere. So you're telling me Dubai was like, well listen we have unlimited capital we can burn. To desalinization, but we don't WANNA burn the oil because it's bad for the ozone layer and why not have another option more options equals better. Yet I mean you think about in Saudi Arabia what was that a little over a year ago when the oil refining where he was hit right now that is the energy that ultimately drives those south plants. Yes, right. So you're thinking talking about a whole peninsula of people When we think about. Just, on that Brian Point, which is sort of fascinating, right? It's people think of sort of like it's just salty water. Well, actually full all these nutrients you make this concentrated brine and it's like a biscuit a biohazard it's not good and if you go to if you're scuba diver, right, you go to some island where they have. Diesel plants you know it's usually diesel generator powered yet. It's always on the other side of the island from where you scuba dive because the coral is kind of all screwed up over there. So it is a solution. And I don't WanNa I. DON'T WANNA bag on it too hard because I think any any technology that. Is Providing additional freshwater yeah additional potable water is like all right by me. Right. Bring on the competitors for its than death. But is not better than sucking air out of the water. Is there a downside to sucking the air out of the water I the air rather? Does at the Stupa question because I'm a neophyte at this but if everybody had these on the roof of every house, would the amount of moisture being taken out of the air crate similar Brian like effect in other words were making the drier and then that screws up the rainforest as an example or is it just not enough water being pulled? Yeah, what's what's fascinating in? You'll appreciate this we live on a very wet planet one there's in the troposphere, the lower part of the atmosphere where we all live There are one point, six times, ten to the sixteen kilograms of water vapor in the air. So and that's one point six or one six, and then fifteen more Zeros got it kilograms, right? So. That is more than six times the volume of all the rivers on the planet. And that water it's average lifetime in the atmosphere is about a week. So you WANNA talk about a new renewable resource It's massive now you say, okay well, that's a huge number. How does that equate to if every single person on the planet had a source hydro panel? Well, it turns out that it's like one part and one hundred million. Of that water taken out every day something like that, right? And then you ask okay. Well, okay. That's a tiny number. Well, what about? How much? Excess. Water Vapor is in the atmosphere associated with one degree. Celsius. Increase in Earth's average temperature, which is where we're at now in climate change right and it turns out that that even that number is orders of magnitude bigger than what you could pull out. So sort of this interesting. Noxious theory. Yeah. Yeah. In a way, it's almost like we're in some star Star Trek we're in like some star trek or science fiction arc where we're starting to understand the ecosystem and our impact on it whether it's desalinization whether it's solar. Or what do you call this general area of pulling moist strategy areas or category name. Yes. So we we refer to it as what we do is just literally as a Hydra panel. So Hydro, but is there another word for it beyond description of the panel is the act of taking water from the air? Yes. So you could mess condensation in. Yeah. It is a from a from a thermodynamic perspective. It is no different than when you walk out of your home and there's do on lease got. It's that's so when we look at this. When we come back from the break, what I want you to answer is. What is the damage we would do if we went all in on this versus the damage, we are currently doing by going all in on pulling water from rivers when we get back on this. All. Right. 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Let's get back to this mason past really happy that our current guest who don't listen he doesn't do a lot of press and he decided to come on the podcast like many CEOS because on this podcast, we're really trying to have A. Meaningful discussion with founders about their vision. There's no Gotcha. Here is no China to pin you to the wall. I'm not trying to break anybody or do link Bait here. I'm trying to have a long deep meaningful conversation with people who want to change the world for the better and cody from zero mass water. As you were talking about making clean water I think he's got the high ground on this one When we left to go to break we were talking a little bit about. You know this fantastical moment where at in humanity were technology's moving at an amazing pace and capital is flowing to projects note, Pun intended that can really change the world. So this this capitalism gone wild this amazing amount of funding available is allowing us to be more Davis in capitalist capitalism and I let us question things we've done in the past. One of the things we've done in the past is built dams and tapped into rivers. The Colorado River being I think the source of some unbelievable percentage of. Agricultural. Water the damage that we've done I don't even know if we know the damage we've done by using rivers and lakes as our water sources for the growing population of the planet I know in China specifically, they've had flooding issues that the CPI has been Let's just say not talking about all that much. But when you try to control nature's Path of water. That is a very delicate thing to do. So I'm curious in your research, cody, what is the ecological ecological damage? We've done with dams and rivers when compared to save you know putting these panels on people's roofs. So. So first of all, all the beg off hydrologist and and so you know it's I'm not super knowledgeable on this front but I will say that the Colorado River does not cross the Mexican border anymore imagine if the Colorado river was a free running river and we put a dam today and stop it from running across the border, and then you have the Sea of Cortes right the Baja California is the peninsula on side of. That that ecosystem used to have all that freshwater, all those nutrients flowing into it right and as you may know the almost all. Lotion life in in the Open Pacific is added by them on iron. that is present and you only need PPM levels of iron for massive amounts of Santa Bacteria to grow and so on, and of course, the Colorado River is so named because the water is in fact, the color red because in fact, it has a lot of iron and. Did Not know that. So thank you for that education So we should be trying as society to restore the natural flow of things. For sure and I think we are taking out dams regularly in the US it's a, it's a major effort to return. In a lot of the historical wetlands to what they were and remove kind of the Canal rivers that we have. Now like the river, you think about that one I literally canal at the same time you think about. You know where I'm sitting right here You know historically the land of the ABACI, the the pima you know the the the native. Americans that were here hand-dug twenty thousand kilometers of canals throughout the valley that is now PHOENIX to pull the salt and Hilo and Verdy rivers to. Right, and so there is a sort of historical process of utilizing rivers for those processes right When we take the Colorado River and of course, put it into the dams that we have and. Powell mead, Mohave and civil half half of those four right We basically take out all the the nutrients they settle in the lakes, and then that water runs clean, which looks good but it's not all those nutrients are not running downstream right now when we think about. The human side, right. All water that we have historically used is extractive resource right either pump it out of the grounds about the water table of dropping in the San Joaquin. Valley. You don't know about that unpack net I. Okay. So San, Joaquin Valley Right. The Central Valley California You know one of the could feed the Earth's population some number of times over you hear all these crazy statistics they mess there and there's cows there. So have you ever I just did the trip back and forth from L. A. You go through the central coast of California you will go for half an hour through. Basically cow farms that just go for hundred miles. Yeah. Yeah. That that huge valley is watered by in the runoff that comes from the rockies and from the Sierra Nevada and. Because of the fact that there's more water needed there to grow almonds and are things than what comes from the runoff we've been pumping groundwater. So this great photograph that I think was taken in nineteen seventy and the top of the. The Telephone Pole says you know nineteen twenty and then there's like nine hundred fifty and the bottoms nineteen seventy and of course, groundwater continues to subside. We're taking out more water than so it's thing. Yeah. Ten feet lower. Money it's like fifty feet or something crazy. Oh, my Lord. So you think about the fact that all water historically is extractive. I'm going to take us back to that idea of kind of applying the principles renewable energy to water. So a little little quick story. So you think about I mean just ten years ago two, thousand ten. Thousand. A long time ago was different a different world. I was just thinking about this. No dapple post over my shoulder here, and that's two thousand early thousand sixteen. S Right about now. I'm longing for like two, thousand, seventeen, eighteen given what? This. Is like the worst if you took the last two decades of her life and compressed every worst thing that happened feels like. We've. We've we've done that already in twenty twenty but continue remember the remember the old. Episodes of a twilight, the twilight zone with shorts erling and Roger. Chain Smoking get on kind of give you a hint about what's coming and then you drop in the episode yes I've been saying okay we're in this alternative universe I'm waiting for Rod Sterling to come on and like chain smoking. All right it's over. I mean at the end of the year, I had this cute little catchphrase. What's your twenty twenty vision that was kind of stupid right? Whatever saying that twenty twenty vision survived. Now. So. Now, I've got a new one for twenty, twenty one, which is like okay. I got twenty I'm splitting my I'm going blackjack. I Anyway Yup but. Since, we're on this tangent staying sane while running an at scale company just on a very personal basis. I've had my own struggles. I've talked about here on the podcast and how the bike as for me has been a great relief because I'm an extrovert I just love talking to people and. I know people have bigger problems than I. DO economically with the race racism and there are bigger problems than I have on ev the everybody's throwing this isolation and loneliness. That's what's hit me the hardest. How have you maintained? Your ability to run at scale. Company. During this cataclysmic year. Yeah it's been. Incredibly challenging as you might imagine, we also closed the series. See One financing in the middle is mate Lack around let's come back to. That's like another as a whole are thing and about how Scary that was but. But you know and it goes to your point about capital is flowing into two important problems. You know think about Black Rock, you know ten years ago they funded something what we're doing So I think number one is culture I'm a I'm a big culture nerd The idea that your culture has to be a living document a living thing that sort of really reflects who you are and what you're all about as a company we have seven culture elements. The first one is league love right and actually you mentioned the firefighters earlier. Yeah I refer to this thing as the as the tried of love, which is courage vulnerability in love that is. It's only courageous to go running into a burning building right? Because you're vulnerable eating burned and you'd only do that. If there's something inside you love and argue that anything that is worth doing has that triad so Sir Mouse Water and source right. The product itself Technologies Intrinsically Loving Act it is a technology built for social equity. To lift people up. Therefore our number one culture element better live that every day how we interface with each other, how interface to the world etcetera and so and then we have six more cultural elements that are. You know we could do a whole hell our. No. I like the idea of doing a little tangent here on culture because you know culture is one of those things that when I was coming up in the industry people who talked about or considered goofy looney. Berkeley, and then all of a sudden we realized wait a second culture is how? You know how we relate to each other when we're pursuing this mission and it's the meaning behind what we do and it actually it. It sets a tone for who should join the team and who should not be on the team, and then it also creates his fabric. Let you get through times like this. So please continue about your thoughts on culture. Yeah. Also maybe a little bit learning my mom's a hippie and you know she sort of. Instilled this element to me and I think and in fact, just to make it really clear that the beginning of every single board meeting I spent twenty minutes and I go through all seven culture elements reminding everybody what we're all about talk about where we're living where we're not living at with investors. When I'm doing my pitch, I'll take five minutes as an aside and talk about culture because. I'm better elements. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big believer on that on the investor side that it's when you bring on investor it's not like getting married is get divorced. It's like having a child they're yours forever. So married or not. raised. That's right. So yes, the first one lead with love. The second one is think zero masks, which is actually our company's named after the culture, all about taking data and remote remaining inertia freon path this poem from the I think it was early seventies when they'll bury this I think the title of the poem is something like Mad Farmers Liberation Front a manifesto and the last stanza he talks about traffic a Fox right. This idea that a wolf goes from point A. to point a straight line gets there is hungry a Fox. Poking holes in the snow looking for for mice. And taken data, and if you start with the intention that every single step that you take is an impression based on historical data. Fact and you all you can do that. Finally differences method remember applied math right. You can't go more than a few steps forward without taking additional data points and so if you take that and you sort of combine that trying to block this sun here, that's starting now. Fine. Unless it's burden is now she's a good luck. It's a good luck for somebody in Arizona but that triangulation. Is. There's humility in the triangulation, which is we know we want to get to a destination, but we have no matter how much money we raised no matter how successful we are at moments in time let's be humble enough to reassess and triangulate and to look at this data and then. Confirm if I'm reading your your philosophy correctly is don't get ahead of your skis just because you went fast and just because you think you know the best route down this, the slope and this trial. T taking some data points along the way because you might want to slow down or you might might be an opportunity for or gun it. And it comes out in two ways right a purity of purpose right that we you know where this is all about fundamentally perfecting water very every replace not about the solution of the day, right which supplier, which this which that, right which customer. The other one is sorta leads to know traditions right this idea that Oh, well, we do it that way because we've always done that way. Well, that's precisely how you built an edifice not how you build a business right great. Let's go build a bric brick building. That's great. That's perfect. That's known how to we know how to do that. Nobody's ever built Sir Mouse water before you not you not me. So we'd better be taking data and comes back to that humility concept. Right the third culture element is build aggressively for divergence this idea that. Diversity is not enough. It's in our kind of I don't use diversity because sort of sometimes people think about as checking a box. Yeah, you get. Here's your cookie. Here's your star, your diverse, no divergence. What's the different is virgins because it includes all the things that we normally think about gender orientation race, all the things politics, but then it layers onto it. Every other way that we might be different one other because you kind something like really cool. HP are pieces on. sort of the inefficiency of difference. So in other words, if we're like ten Yale undergrads that are white dudes, we start a company where really efficient communicators but it's all concave down in terms of our ability to sort of innovate because we have groupthink whereas if we're inefficient because we're all different roles speaking slightly different languages, we come from different places were start the slope starts slow, but it's concave. makes. Sense when you just think it through and it really I mean introversion extroversion is one that people leave off the list and I think it's just so important. You're clearly I think on the Myers Bragan T. j. God you feel verdict. Now Is a very interesting one. I was an Tj my whole life, and then after I had my first daughter I took the test again ent p. which I thought was kind of interesting move But anyway, we're talking about how? I love that somebody said to me Myers Briggs is astrology for dudes like I was like, wow, that's kind of an interesting. But I do having time for you know introverts when you think about divergence. As you and I being extroverts and ent peas Jays were really that Gung Ho. You know it's a certain prototype with typical. prototypical person. But then you look at somebody who might have be an N. Tj. And you know they might not be able to do the keynote speech the way jobs did, but they might be able to make the product like Wozniak did right Or Johnny I've. That actually you know introversion extroversion comes up almost in every job search. You know we think about the superpowers of introverts. I ask you know I love the superpowers of Introverts, right? Like just leave me alone. which I'll just jump I'll jump actually I'll just give you one more culture laments otherwise we'll take up the whole time the sixth out of our seventh out of our seven the introverts loved the most, which is cherish focus and nine eruption periods. So from ten am to three PM every single day. Nope, nope meetings company-wide that's five hours of value creation and it what it does is it's recognizing every team comes together to. Assess the sort of controversial contribution of individuals, and then ultimately we have to go away and deliver something right right and they kind of proof that this is a good helmet is that everybody who manages somebody else wants to break the rule all the time and anybody who has no reports loves this culture element has like look I have my meetings from seven thirty in the morning till ten get them all in twenty minutes shots time super-efficient five hours evaluation three PM on Deuce more. Meetings or whatever what you're saying is the manager because they're sitting there at their desk and they actually don't produce something their production is managing their like twiddling their thumbs saying, who can I interrupt with a question and they're not allowed to view that at each of us at any given moment are some combination or purely facilitation or individual contributor rice either facilitating contributors or you are an and you can swap between the two right I'm today on probably ninety percent of facilitator ten percents. You're saying, what are you need removed from Your Path? How can I make you more effective at your job and then wasn't all you pop on a podcast like this and you're doing the sale pitch and you're explain the vision and that is actually you facilitate love it. So rule number six is that focus and that now nine time loved exactly and that one actually comes from really cool data around. I think it's actually for a software engineer. So they tracked lines of code written after an interruption and it turns out that after interruption it takes about forty five minutes get back to a state of flow. Out actually argued that that's not unique that any writers from. The is writing if I if I get into a discussion with somebody, God forbid I get into an argument with people? If I if I have a disagreement or an argument somebody. I can't bright for the rest of the Goddamn Day and when I when I did my book and when I'm right in the next one now I can't be around people. I can only be around like one or two people and it to be a no arguing rule and argue about the book but I can't have an argument about some silly bullshit that because it just my. For some reason, it just short circuits my brain I can't get back into the voice need. Yeah and you think about you know if it takes forty five minutes to get back into a state of flow, let's take that as the minimum. If you have a meeting every other hour between when you get into the office and noon, you've created what? Maybe forty five minutes of value. Maybe. Maybe. Fifteen minutes fifteen minutes, fifteen minutes whereas you create blocks and then it's not just me most on this issue the most on this one you. Ask Austin. Headwind. Of anybody and senior leadership who wants to break through all the time and it's I think it's actually a good tension because actually kind of liked the fact that we kinda constantly breaking that one but we got way off on this aisle. To. All right gaming number six I want number seven and one five. These are these are two good. This is like. I think we've got four or five and seven left. Okay. Okay. So Yeah. So four is what is oh? Yeah. After member amid order yes is. Demand. Yes. If reject no because. Demand. Yes if Yeah rejane yes. If no because. Okay. So the idea here is hey, chasing I got this idea blah blah blah. Blah because that breaks laws of physics whereas you're like well, actually, yes. If that didn't break laws of physics now we're at the board or hey, cody. Hey. Sorry I can't deliver that thing because the washers are stuck in no Gallas Michael Jason Fucking car you get the washers waft across Mexican border that'll take me like six hours will that's better than a week right? It's the right. So it doesn't mean that you do it or that you can find your way around the lack of following the laws of physics but the point is that enforces engagement right? And it was so cool cultural. That's one that's like alive. Every day is you'll hear people are exasperated. Yes if we had seven million dollars and it's like, okay. All right. Well, let's talk about how that could be right right and so if the sales and marketing department was one hundred people right? Exact- totally get it doesn't. It allows you instead of saying, no, you're saying that is a possibility if we had this resource if this. If this problem could be solved, which is what? They always have that term in improvisation where they do the and or something. An. Imprint gets a corollary to that and I think what? I, think it where whereas most powerful is. it's really easy for people who are the four letter word experienced right or You know senior or been around the company longest or whatever to give short shrift. To a new idea to a different way of doing things gotta curse their stock Kurt they're they're they're developing tradition. They're not getting a nurse right now so bad how we doing here not in this company exactly. So that's number four, number five is. All about building for quality on people, water customers, investors, etc. so it's quality matters. It's all about and so it goes from product to customer to an investor cantabile more members everything the idea that has to come go through Equality Lens Right? We're sort of when we start a company. I have this sort of this idea that there's that criticality or is proportional to risk timescale right and so when you start out the company like you haven't retired in your risk, right? The risk is like one hundred. Based or whatever. And Yeah sonner percent the the first driven of of risk is infinite and and yet criticality is zero because scale is you're right and so over time criticality going up. So your decisions become ever more important there and so on, and then eventually what you WanNa do is reach shoulder and you WanNa have criticality be going down meaning that scale is dominating, retired all the risk or as much as risk as possible and so. In that framing. This culture element is about well everything. Every decision we have to make whether it's about people product or customers or shareholder whatever stakeholder of any kind we have to be thinking about that Lens of making sure that their matching are that then. Criticality right we'll. He added in people might say risk reward is another interpretation of the same thing but he if you're taking risks and you're being bald and saying, Hey, we got to get this thing down to two thousand, nausea two, thousand dollars. If you take those risks than at some point when the price becomes so cheap for producing these panels, it's unlocks a tunnel, a total amount of the the risk in the business, right exactly, and now all of a sudden if these. Things cost five hundred dollars right now you and I would be having a different discussion you and the sales team you and the CFO be having a different discussion. So then you you have to have that discussion of how do we get there which was the discussion Eli was having like how do we take this hundred and sixty thousand dollar go kart the tussle roadster and make it a seventy five thousand dollars less and then eventually a forty thousand, forty, five, thousand dollars model three, right And Yeah it seems like you're halfway there the the best car that's on the road. I have a model three in it's just Ridiculous upgrading to the I don't know if you've been. Have you been in the model? Why have you been yet? I have. I have one of founders of the model three and that car is mind blowing. I also have the roadster and the Model S. I just prefer the three. But the why you're going to instantly upgrade to because it's a hatchback a little bit higher in the road and the amount of internal space in the why huge it's bonkers it's like I think the why is This is going to be. A people don't understand the step function that happened between the three and the why I think that three. Tesla was under so much pressure to get that car market and it's so amazing that people didn't expect that they could then. Hit. Another step function with the why. But the did yeah because the platform they built is so robust right and. Like I would argue I mean I i. think probably everybody would agree that the Model S. and certainly the roadster clues right? They're kind of like put all together. Yes. But it's on that path right and then you get the model three and it's like a job, right? Why they've done things with like the H VAC unit had this guy on. who takes the cars apart and he was just freaked out about the h back system and the electrical system they redid between the three in the why it wasn't enough for Ilan to just put out the Y. and have it be more cavernous, bigger and higher? Patch back they decided at fuck it. We're GONNA just Redo the tax system and make it even more efficient Angola Redo the electoral system, and make it even more redundant and cheaper and better and faster, and that's their philosophy over there just never enough, which then makes each subsequent product better. Did we miss any now where we with our seven I want to get? Respect for their approach for sure the seventh is. Ilam before by the way we are, we've met a couple times. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating Guy. I've talked to him a lot about water and we were we were. Just a decade ago we were talking I was like, why can't if this is such a, why can't we combine? Solar with. you know pulling water from the air condensation or desalinization and if. You were to build this could you not and I'm going to ask you the same question? The at the rate, your technologies working if you nealon took your panels. And solar panels and just had unlimited energy water. Could we not a form? A desert and and who knows what impact that has ecologically. But let's say we're deforesting rainforest some places whatever reason. Could we not take a swath of land in the middle of this country from a desert at over the next hundred years, terra form it into a rainforest. Of course, of course, we could according to this makes ultimately hopeful because the cost of almonds one of the most dense foods is water. Am I wrong? This is what I hear is that hundred the entire cost of nuts is water therefore of water is free and we have more landmass that we know what to do with whether it's in Australia or it's in the United States. We literally on the cusp in our lifetime of having free water, free energy and free nutrition. Quiz nutrition is a function of those to previous items correct xactly, and when you get you get sort of the kind of advanced agriculture layer in there right food cost and. Associate with food and all the other things, all the nutrient outflows from growing food and. monoculture and all that stuff goes away. So, that that first layer, right maslow's hierarchy food water shelter right also. We're done right and he's GonNa Start to start to layer on top of that we can't get to. Social you can't get to two women, women and girls. Empowerment takes out just just an African continent alone women and girls fetch water the tune of forty billion dollars a year. Let's talk about the free water that is fetching right like you WanNa talk about okay. Well, how does economics a waterwork? Of course if you have cubic meters water come into your home that's free effectively and and tastes good. Osama talking about, let's say an India right the the GDP he P P P per hour right the kind of value of human existence is about three dollars and forty cents. If you're walking for India in India for water. The average distance that are woman walks, it corresponds to that water costing about sixty three cents a leader. Crazy. and. That's that's not potable. It's not. And then so if you get diarrhea two to four times a year that's about two to four hundred dollars a year cost directly in government. So free water is a massive headwind economically forget the knock on's of obviously education and social justice all things that we have to nail, but we again were stuck stuck here at the first layer is there needs to be you know when we when we think about how we? Want. To change this world. You know a lot of what Bill Gates has been doing in the developing world in terms of you know he had this great quote at one point were just like I, know soccer eight Kinda like he wasn't shadings October but he's like, yeah if soccer wants and getting people internet, that's fine I. Want to get the mosquito nets I and get them water first and really the. If we can solve those problems and remove that human suffering and just the. Way To judge a society, I've always felt as a how they treat the most vulnerable people and they'll ability to give people clean water, which then gives them free agriculture I. Think it would be amazing in our society, America people, Talk About K. through twelve education being free great. We're talking about healthcare what if we had a system in America where produce a base level of produce was free for everybody? And so nutritious food was available for free. You could literally go just like we can turn on our tap and essentially a free clean water. Resource you bi right. So resource you buy. Yes be produce you Bi Resource Uba because we do it for education we're going to do it for healthcare eventually people are demanding it and there's no reason not to do it. We do it kind of having done it for electricity but. I would say we're Kospi on that right. Side we're on the cusp of you you feel up. That's why like talking to people like you I feel optimistic about the world like I feel like we're on the cusp of this. I feel like there's there is a while there's all these other headwinds that were feeling you know every day right now. I see in US have gotten to know Bill Gates over the years. He's an investor energy ventures. In in their mass and I think history's going to look very favourably upon him. Right you think about everything he's done for the world forget everything the world through his company. Computer on every desk was like that was number one, and then by the way like they're going to be the footnote right exactly and then be with Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation all the things that he's done and now his leadership on climate. He pulled together twenty two other billionaires. I think the total wealth of the wealth of the groups over trillion dollars to form break energy ventures to go invest in things that offset climate change, which is what you know that what is breakthrough energy ventures I didn't know that can take note we need to get whoever's running that on this podcast stat all introduce it to the other guys. So. They wait a the billionaires on the planet. PUT A. Did you say trillion dollars into breakthrough energy ventures they are worth over trillion dollars to combine. The trillion. But they are backing of venture fund called breakthrough energy ventures to solve their energy, and that's about one and a half billion dollars in it. So that's that's Branson and bezos. Jack Mon- Masa Patrice Mindset and other folks that are in that that fund and you know they are investing. into these into into these. Solutions that will ultimately either offramp climate change or in some way account for resiliency and adaptation zero mouse water is all about offsetting mass amounts of co two associated drinking water massive massive amounts. We didn't get into that. It's like a whole `nother set of beautiful man mind math type stuff, and then on the on the data adaptation resiliency side obviously were critical. I mentioned earlier blackrock came in your maybe remember. Larry think. wrote that letter year round es g right and actually he has Jada everybody. Environmental Social and governance. So it's really taking into account all the other factors in the business that are other than just the PNL and balance sheet that that relate to your contribution you're putting your takes with respect to the world, right contributions in and an impact negative impacts and so. They, they have a substantial es practice now blackrock, which is fantastic worlds largest asset manager eight seven, and a half trillion dollars under management, and is now becoming a pervasive in all financing discussions. Yes. G You know at at the Harvard's of the world and the the Pan, and there was literally an episode of billions where. The Ark was Taylor who's like Manager Oh you watch the show yes. So Shout COPPA momentum. WHO's GonNa be on the pod we you know he basically created that arc of like, Hey, these endowments were like I don't WanNa. Get bullied into doing yes G. we have investments in things that produce for our university and I can't be bullied by a bunch millennial students and the you know the new student newspaper into doing this and they were just trying to come up with a way for them to save face and embrace is. which to shows you a lot of this is you know generational like there's a generation who you know the black rock and previous life owned or was of significant owner in sea world and you know had orcas they had a crisis of conscience and we're like we cannot keep orcas in captivity get this thing off the books and to their credit you know the money printing machine and they said, you know like I don't want my kid I don't to go to work every day and have my kids. I'm holding orcas in captivity especially after. The tragic death, some trainers. So you'll is it is interesting to see the. The Capitalism The consciousness of capital. Is I think a trend that bill? Gates. Is the tip of the spear of and he does not get enough credit and I think you know it's it's fine to criticize the disparity in wealth. I don't know how you feel about it. But I keep seeing people who give their money away getting attacked for doing it Jack twitter has been giving his money way at an I would I would say literally at an alarming pace for a young person like I mean I like Jackie, you can have anything left to you know what it's like he's kind of a monk. Anyway. Having known him since before he was the of twitter. But Look I mean as just said I'm putting ten billion into climate change I think gift ever. There's a lot of arguments for why you know people shouldn't have that kind of wealth. I would argue these singular good argument for people having massive concentrations of wealth is to go fuck and do something that improves the world, and if you can do that good on you, right I mean I think that's that's the biggest argument for for those types of sort of efficiencies in in solving big problems. The what this is a fascinating aspect of human nature with great wealth. Comes I believe and I know that I'm going to get criticized maybe they'll cancel me finally for this I actually think you get a you have a crisis of consciousness most often. Now, there are some people who just go buy a bunch of boats and go crazy but most often when I see with people who come into wealth is they mess around for a couple of years they have fun spending it, and then they realized it had zero impact on their happiness in fact, some of them it just. Becomes a wait and you've probably seen this as well. We run in similar circles. It becomes a weight and it becomes of a just a a heaviness, and then at some point you've checked off every box whether it's things that you want to own or experiences you wanted to have or companies you want to build or missions you wanted to accomplish, and then you just do it. Gates is doing or you do it buffet did which is just give all the money to gates to do what he's doing and. You then have the people who the capital allocators made the proper bets on society on their products I e Amazon joined Amazon Prime, which then led to Jeff Bezos can wealth which then led to Mackenzie Bezos and Jeff Bezos I predict will give their money away more effectively than any non-profit ever could. So in a way capitalism. With consciousness comes the ability of we might have actually stumbled on the perfect system, which is the polarization of wealth put so much focus on a gates put so much focus who gates with most hated person on the planet for a couple of years. Bazo says now, the most hated person on the planet will as couple of years that they then wind up giving it away and saying here, I'll prove to you that I can give this money away in a way and changed the world forever. Yeah, and it's interesting because I think. I would argue in the early days when let's say Amazon Circa. Two thousand five or so yeah it was still when it was valuable company but still unclear what it was going to become at least to the rest of the world maybe not to Jeff. You know you think about okay. Well, he's a rich guy at that point, but really he's he's continuing to push the chips in right he's betting on the on the win and so stops most people most people that point are rational and they the rational financially and they offer him right. So then they have pretty large amounts of wealth and then their company gets bought by some pe firm or whatever, and it doesn't become Amazon it is today. So because of that concentration because of that that leadership Amazon became something reliable to the world. Now, of course, it has its own PR problems, but I would argue that it's it's done more good than bad. and. Now, there's an opportunity for jeff to go do something with his wealth. Opportunity doesn't mean that he does -sarily will But if he does, he's already investing in a number of areas where he'll clearly have a positive impact and in again as I said for Bill Gates beyond his company right what's Today. Matt Gaetz, a couple of times had brief conversations with him at different dinners but not in the last ten years what gates like when when you talk to gates, what makes him so special? What makes him unique in the world? fundamentally I mean unite both run in circles with a lot of really smart people. I feel really humbled by the just the intelligence of the people that I, get to be around all the time. Gates's another level right? He he he's a Anneli math. You know he's a polymath that is able to synthesize across highly disparate topics recognizing kind of where the the best efforts need to be deployed in order to have the largest impact, all sorts of things. And I think age has I. I've known them that long road imagine going back if he's anything like most other entrepreneurs that I know you wind the clock back twenty or thirty years, he probably was a pretty tough guy to be around right? Right Torius Are. Yeah. If somebody said something stupid or whatever. Just in in in the eighties or nineties people forget like the idea was if you said something stupid in a meeting, the CEO would absolutely demolish destroy and make an example of you like it was. It was literally a wartime. Mentality. I. Think at Microsoft for decades. That's and the same thing with Steve Jobs like they say like in his first tenure, he like a wartime CEO and then he became enlightened and we'll see how we all behaved in our twenties and thirties, forties and fifties fry exactly well and I think actually you know I'm sorta guilty of severe having severe type a personality wanting to win and sort of. I kind of entrepreneurial for as you know as. Much less dimensional is and it was actually kind of those experiences that went wait a minute. Actually there's this amazing brain trust that we have solved fundamental problems like right order and make a heck of a lot of money doing it, which is that Cadillac that flywheel effect that will. The world and if I build it with the right culture, then then it sort of will build itself in the sense that people will come to work to. The world and it'll be their company and their culture right and so it's been that that evolution offer me personally that has made when you're asking about like what's been like this during this pandemic, it's not been easy but the team has absolutely stayed Gelt I mean through some of the hardest times where we've got, you know that most of leadership because I think the fiber at the fiber that you build the connection you build in the good times is what gets you through the? Bad Times and I've seen in my team is just absolutely come together the two companies. I run and I invested and I've just been wonderful watch as we wrap up here and I really appreciate you taking so much time with us. Tell us about that last round that came together in the middle of the pandemic, perhaps the peak of the pandemic and the debts in new. York. Tragically, you were literally raising money when New York was at I believe like the peak of the pandemic. Yeah this goes right to I. think the core one of the cores of building a great company is who are your shareholders who's around the table are your board members able to also be rational during? A pandemic and so on, and we have all of those things which has just been fantastic. I mean really do have to say we curated the CAP table Most of the people I can't share with you publicly unfortunately but the ones that are public duke energy and Joe Impact on Blake brakes, energy ventures now blackrock we've had two more closing since that made close with one really big investor that's pretty exciting. I can't talk about publicly unfortunately but anyway back, you know kind of at the end of the year. We had been having conversations with blackrock and we went before the investment committee. Everything was all go to go to go and and then we were going into sort of confirmatory diligence in February. and boy, we have. There you go and I had. One the LEMELSON MIT prize back in September of last year and then donated that that money to a indigenous tribe in northern. Colombia. So we were in northern Colombia installing panels in early March just kind of. What we're fundamentally about right. These women were walking six hours a day to. Water now, they don't do that. So I get back March fifteenth, and of course, the world is among neutrally the night the NBA called the game was I believe the fourteenth that Thursday March twelve was I think Tuesday. That was when I started my shelter in place in shelter in place order started with the following Monday the Seventeenth San Francisco exactly I got home and I I went into quarantine so that my kids don't get it. You know if I if I had it. So I stayed in quarantine for three weeks. So then were in our in the depths of the of the first wave of the pandemic and The. guy in on the table at at black rock you know. To his credit everything was super rational, right? Hey, this were rat. We gotta go back before the I see and I'm going Oh shit you know. Committee in a over zoom. Yeah we did that in April and two blackhawks credit. They didn't they could have could have demanded a bunch of stuff. They didn't do that and it's because, of course, they see like we do right obviously, this is all GonNa pass and on the other side of this is a lot of opportunity for the business. So we ended up closing the financing may eight and that I close was about fifty million dollars the total in the round that we've closed. A little over one, hundred and So sort of dramatically oversubscribed and I guess part of that going back to several of the points you made is the world is of waking up to You know that that ultimately resources are where it's at and yet if you can bring twenty-first-century technology to something stuck in the Roman era, right we still wait for this stuff to fall sky, and then we soak in the ground, we pump it and put in concrete pipes and all that stuff. and. What was interesting is we had like all these headwinds kind of in the early summer around like our hospitality business and other areas where I was sort of going sheltered. And then our but on the our government side, it was exploding and so that now our hospitality businesses come back. So in a sort of this is why it's super important to have a a set of customers who you know. I. Mean if you look at Uber the fact that the ubereats business and the were you know ridesharing business, they gave them a specific. You know resilient you know I'm sure you're a fan of seem to lab. Like what is Antifa Agile you know? Your your business gets your in chaos. Your Business gets better. Nine percent but it is, in fact, in a crisis, you need water I'm sure you know it's a it's a fundamental building block, January? We might. We might be recently criticized for being. Spread kind of doing too many things at once or what I call optimizing for optionality. And we don't get that criticism right now because the areas where we had headwinds were able to just focus areas where we didn't and so about optimizing for optionality was key in in having a business that hunted through the period it is one of the weird things that's occurred over the last decade is that you know individuals like. Were so brilliant at managing supply chain that they literally put the supply chain person in charge of apple after Steve Jobs. Now. It's amazing that the supply and this is not a dig to Tim Cook. I think he's the perfect person to put in afterwards I don't think it's the perfect person to put in long term, but we have gotten so good at optimizing supply chain that iphones get announced and shipped from China with a label that was printed in China and a factory and get your hands and to the point at which you know when we have a crises, there's no redundancy and people forgot about redundancy and resiliency, and we optimized for something that you know. At a level of efficiency that may be works against us in a crises, and now we have to rethink what I love about what you're doing what you're doing with the power wall is if every home in America, where every even every other home in America or every third home in America had your system and power wall and an electric vehicle, you just think about how that distributed network resilient did is to cataclysmic changes that we face and. Eat. I'm talking about environmental ones like hurricanes and heat waves and fires. You know if we have more water and we can reverse climate change will be re we come out of this redundant. A more just world with free produce and soft climate change. This could be the win, win win win win of humanity, and that's why I'm so optimistic I think we can solve all these problems it's just the will to execute It's the will and the imagination to to think about what kind of world we want and how do we take the brain trust that sometimes gets put onto frivolity and apply to our biggest problems. And those biggest problems? Right pain boy I like to say paint points pay right you know is biggest problems are the biggest opportunities and yeah, those resources right food water shelter if you're able to. Produce everybody from a I won't say vertical farmers that triggers everybody around Labor whoever else but let's say advance agriculture with I. Think a key part of where we have to go where we stop using dirt to hold up the plants but rather take that and move it to a twenty-first-century scenario where you're using one twentieth, the Water One twentieth nitrogen so on. So obvious have walls of produce and the their solar panels and you're doing the hydration that you're doing with your panels then the Avocados and the Basil and the spinach. The stuff is all going to drop ten in price and this deflationary effect people look at deflation and they get worried about. Deflation means that the standard of living goes up the fact that you can buy three t shirts for five dollars or jeans cost less today than you and I were buying them in the eighties. This very weird phenomenon you know and it's a good phenomenon that an air bag you cannot buy a fifteen thousand or sixteen thousand dollar car without an airbag. Whereas airbag was eight, thousand dollar option at some point in time like deflation. MEANS BETTER STANDARD OF LIVING Animus, may have had this wrong While and it doesn't. It doesn't necessarily have to mean you know 'cause a lot of that was driven by automation and moving jobs offshore but doesn't have to mean just that right it can also like our friend rick up when desktop metal is ultimately successful you know your refrigerator hinge breaks and before you from work, there's a a new hinge sitting there absolutely on the print plate right and you think about what that means for where we goes society where you know kind of. All the things that we think of as coming from somewhere far away or has to be put together in a factory or whatever, or has to be pumped out of the ground or espy grown in a in a monoculture field in the middle of Iowa. If instead, it can be done in a technological way that's much more efficient and local means more jobs in a way that is more efficient. That's more healthy for us and the planet. Such a bright future of abundance and we need only open. I. Mean when we talk about heart and I know you know if you open your heart to innovation and you and you treat capitalism as a a part of the ECO capitalism is a component of the operating system along with democracy that you need to keep working on upgrading those operating systems and keeping them in balance not remove that operating system you remove capitalism from the democratic operating system and and we go into fascism or socialism or some weird combination yet we cannot have unconstrained capitalism that does not bring the the people who are most up and this you know. Framing. When you and I have this discussion you know and people have faith have these Kinda of discussions I realized that how we frame discussions and how politicians frame discussions are so disparate. It's so disparate that they don't know how to frame the discussion if we were to if I if you and entrepreneur said, okay, currently, we have pre K. to twelve. that's fourteen years of schooling. What if we added? One Year of trade school and two years of programming school that were available. That'd be about eight percent more twelve percent more is there way to do that efficiently? But when you say free college for everybody now everybody's triggered and it's it's a holy war and now you have to pick a side. But what if we just said what if we can make the system eight percent better? So we could add a year of vocational training for some Group of people you and I as Easy peasy. Mickey Wiki, done exactly. Eight percent more efficient easy exactly and I think there's a sort of this idea that. Kinda come through two different ways, right so there's sort of the be labs efforts, right? The Public Benefit Corporation. and then there's the. John mackey founder and CEO of whole. Foods. And Roger Soda that came up with this conscious capitalism movement and they're sort of both I? Think in very different ways articulating something that is implicit in what you're saying which is. Capitalism is a fundamental force. It's the it's an imperfect, but the greatest forces ever developed as humanity for lifting lifting up all boats right for raising everybody. At the same time, we historically have had our externalities basically stop at the shop front door right, and we have to extend that extra analogy a few more layers that yes G. layers and other things, and we also have to be focused on the problems that are facing us as a as a prime as prime kind of motivators for new entrepreneurs. And it's from my perspective it's the reason to be most helpful because. There are only a finite number of problems facing. It is not an infinite number problems right and there's a lot of entrepreneurs out there and and you know what you? there. So close you know it's like you just look at some of them. They're so close, and in some cases, they're here waiting to be deployed. What one of the things that I when I when I look at this pandemic and we look back on it. The driving through San Francisco or just driving in general and seeing no cars on the road and watching the air quality in northern California. Become perfect absent the fires that we just recently had I didn't realize that northern. California. Had A bit of smog and certainly people in La knew about it and obviously in other places like Mumbai saw that one photo were suddenly they could see the Himalayas. Yeah and there were like I didn't know the Himalayas could be seen from my house, but the they are. snowcapped mountains. That was always there. We just chose not to see them. All we needed to do was move everybody to vs. That's IT and it's they're here. So why are we not doing it? It is the will and it is the will of the entrepreneur and the capitalist who come to work every day and who picks the team and motivates the team, and then inspires the make the bat that makes the change in the world and you know what cody you one of those people in it's been great to get to know you on this podcast is you immensely the I didn't know we'd make that turn into culture. But you are very open. I think and that's what makes regret. Great guest on this podcast. I always tell people who want to be on the podcast like the currency of the realm here is honesty and just opening up in it's it's good to know you and I think maybe you know when this is all over, I'd love to you know to hike with you or. Do something like gets rahm whatever. Good to know you cody. So, many friends in common too and I know you don't do these pockets. You're not a guy. You don't like doing the press. Do we do a little bit here and there but you know I think. It's so critical that we put execution I write. Search this what we're working on right the the idea that we fuck it up it I just know there's no way that we can allow that to happen. So there's not a focus around that and I think so I spent about a week a month up in the area. So when this all wrong here I got I got killer in place that I'll take you to from Tokyo that opened up if you if you like all right, I'll get to know your cody we'll see you all next time. STAY SAFE everybody. Bye Bye.

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E1121: Mark Suster on investing in human-computer interfaces & sustainability, what he looks for in founders, SPACs impact on early-stage investing & more

This Week in Startups

1:33:12 hr | Last month

E1121: Mark Suster on investing in human-computer interfaces & sustainability, what he looks for in founders, SPACs impact on early-stage investing & more

"This week in startups is brought to you by trends by the Hustle. Track and capitalize on emerging. Industries trends, before, they explode. Start. Your two week trial for just one dollar at trends. Dot Com slash twist Gusto running a startup is hard work but thankfully, Gusto makes payroll easy. They also offer flexible benefits on boarding and so much more twist listeners get three months free at Gusto dot com slash twist and Clavier is the e commerce marketing platform that helps brands build relationships with memorable email and SMS messages today more than fifty thousand brands like living proof hint and Chubby choose Clavijo to help them grow learn more and get started with a free trial at Clavijo dot com slash twist that's K. A. V. I. Yo Dot Com Slash I Hey everybody. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of this week in startups. I'm really really excited today to have. What am I great friends colleagues. and Co conspirators on the podcast he's been on. Now if my memory serves me correctly four times in ten years, and this is the fifth he's on every two or three years episode twenty-five episode to seventy. Nine Episode Four Twenty Nine Ninety Two thousand fourteen episode six, seventy, four in two, thousand sixteen, and know what? Four years between appearances is way too long for a gap with getting Marxist or on the PODCAST. My mistake the problem is we're on board density together and we need to see each other. All the time and I forgot the point of this pot is for you to get to listen in to me having conversations with the smartest most driven entrepreneurs, capitalist thinkers in the space, and one of those is my good friend mark sister. Welcome back to the POD for a fifth time. Thank you. Jason I should say also, we used to produce their show together called and venture capital, which was fine to do. It was fun to do but you were too busy being a venture capital is doing consistently. And but I've been doing this now. Gosh it's so crazy. You're on the twenty fifth. Can you believe now over one thousand episodes since you've been on amazing it really is something to do with consistency. When it comes to content creation. But it's great to have you back on the pod. Now have really started to work together on a lot of deals and investing in companies together and right off the bat one of them is density. Which is a great company they launch at the launch festival. We made a small Angel Investment and then you came in and did the series I and really annoying to the company what attracted you to density. And how has density changed from the moment you met them today. So. Let me first talk about the category. Then I'll talk about density. So the category for me I've been very interested in computer vision and particularly in a field called hi human computer interfaces and a belief that the way we think about interface as being keyboard and a mouse is going to change over time. The interesting thing is that computing devices are much better at interpreting the physical world than human beings are and so taking all of that as input and also having some of that as output of for me was an important investment and because I'm GonNa talk about density let me do that last but I'll just briefly say. Our investment in ring was based on that. We did the seed round a round B round. See Round d round around ring. And, the idea was off five rounds there as explicit strategy of just doubling down, tripling down quadrupling town and just continuing what five. Because we have a C. Day. Fund and we have three growth funds and our growth funds lean in the winners. So we were thrilled to write an additional twenty million dollars into their growth rounds. So we can put three million dollars to get started, but we can back at the truck and write a sixty five million dollar check. Over time. and. So the idea that Jamie had was not just video camera. But tied to a computer. Could you know more about who's in front of your house? Could you know that it's your wife or your son or your husband or your dog? Could you know that it's the mailman or could you know that it's somebody who's been in your neighborhood and stolen packages before right. So the idea of computers interpreting the physical world. So that was a great outcome north of a billion dollar. SOLTA. Amazon but other examples the best outcome in the history of up front, and then he was the name of upfront before. Gop Gop? She's now a friend. So that was. Top five in terms of returns probably top five, not in terms of returns but in terms of aggregate exit value got. So I mean we've had I think sixteen companies be worth more than a billion dollars in our graduate I mean you have to realize you know we've been around for four years right so we're not going to know that. Yeah. Because he had name change people may think see younger firm than it actually is exactly but let me give you some other examples of hi in computer vision we invested in a baby monitor company called net an it. But what the idea is think about when you take your young child to appeal. You go four times a year. What do they? WanNa do they WANNA look at they WANNA look at wait they WANNA look at head circumference they WANNA look at alertness they get four data points and the doctor the pediatrician judges them on a specific moment in time where we get as continuous evaluation of the health and wellbeing in child development and we get that every single day. So we now have we believe the largest corpus of data on child infant toddler growth and development in the United States and that's more than doubling every year because we`re Doing tens of millions of revenue now, and we tie that like we think about all of these hardware plus software. So we have to sell a hardware unit in order to get this subscription product in order to get the data that feeds in not just doctors, but into pharmaceutical. So we're now doing clinical trials, I don't know if I can announce them but we're doing things like infant xm where we can actually do clinical trials and they don't have to actually go in person to people's homes. So that's another example where we actually can predict disease. Very young children based on clinical readouts of how they're doing. In ways that even pediatricians can't if you think about senior care. We believe that you can predict Alzheimer's you can predict Parkinson's by looking at the gate and even listening to the vocal pattern of somebody who's developed something that a doctor can't yet see. Interesting and you don't have that product and market yet. You're looking for a company to do that one I want to fund that and I have several players in the category. We haven't gotten there yet. We've looked a lot at fall detection and seniors. That's an. Interesting thing about what you're talking about is this could be done actually in an APP if you had somebody do a facetime with somebody and then you looked at the Delta the changes. In them reading the same thing. If you just had them read. Part of a book or sing a song or whatever it is you could provide that service. You may not even need the hardware the certainly that would be nice but you could embed that somehow in a hardware device that has some other purpose, right? Because that's sort of what you're saying that the Monitor from the company Nan T. N. A. N. T. Nat. For people who want to Google it and buy it now. The reason for that product that parents buy it obstensibly is, Hey, I want to a crypt cam so I can just check on my baby with their tossing and turning. But the reality is the value might come from. Hey over time we know how your baby is growing or maybe we even see some breathing anomaly and can say, Hey, maybe you need to take him to the doctor. Yeah. So we already do respiration rate. We can already tell you how your child is breathing. We can already set off an alarm for sids risk. So we. Know of a child is on their tummy we know they're increased sides. So we already do all of that, but we also have really fun products. So we because your child develops they speak they learn their hands working together when you're not watching, they do it in the crib and so all of those photos, all of those videos you're not capturing, but we capture them for you. We're building moments think of your album like you do the building blocks that three month to six months, twelve months but we can do it automatically for you and capture their best moments. The amazing thing about that is science may not have had access to this data set before. So there might be learnings that occur in aggregate. that. We didn't even know as a species I'm going to tell you that. I can't claim this medically, but we have enough data now to prove that we can show autism as young as six months old. Wow. And the children they can get diagnosed two and a half, and there's really simple stuff jason, which is. children or autistic, not not everyone and I'm not a doctor but we know enough about the clinical data to know oftentimes are waking up in the middle of the night and not crying, and the reason they don't cry is crying is a is a form of talking and communicating I'm hungry I'm gase I'm scared I can't fall back to sleep. So you cry you get your parents involved. That's how you communicate but we know that one of the problems that exist. In autism is an inability to communicate next press yourself. So there are parents who believe they had a perfect child because they were never woken up between six months. You know six months, nine months, and what we see what the parent doesn't is that child was up thirteen times last night and couldn't fall back to sleep for forty five minutes and we see the distress when the parents don't while and show density coming around the Horn here you have the ring doorbell. You have a Nannette. Actually. I want to stop and pause for a second on the on the startup that you want fund, which is for seniors and maybe figuring out the state of their Alzheimer's or. Parkinson's and their general well-being. What would it take for you to invest in a company? What would you need to see a minimum bar minimum viable product and a minimum team? Since we're going to get a bunch of emails and people are going to build it now, which is just one of the great natures of having a podcast scale. So let's go ahead and define what would get somebody. A meeting. If they emailed you and they showed you something what would be a minimum to get a meaning minimum to get a check you have to have knowledge and belief system of how to solve the problem because other people have tried to solve it and solve it in a unique way. There are interesting challenges. When you deal with seniors number one, they tend to be less technical yep. Number two is your privacy concerns. I can put a camera on a six month old I can't put a camera on seventy five year old and so it has to be solved with either camera solutions which are very purpose built and only in certain rooms in your house or with other mechanisms that are installed, it has to be done with the consent often have the child usually at. Age. So I'm fifty two and my father had Parkinson's, which is why I know a bit about the disease. My father-in-law had Alzheimer's which is why a bit about the disease. And it has to be done in coordination and consent with children who are trying to work with L. Elderly ageing parents. But here's why it's such a big opportunity. Jason everyone in our age bracket and demo are living through sandwich ears. We have children that were trying to care for but we're trying to figure out how are we going to care for our parents as they age? How are we going to deal with? You know aging issues look at covert and look at where all the initial desk came out of the senior care facilities. So there's Going to be increased scrutiny of them there's going to be a need to manage both access to them cleanliness of how well they're run and so companies like density will benefit from that because people want to track ingress and egress. Okay. So when we get back from this quick break, I want to announce that I'm going to give one hundred thousand dollars somebody who built a prototype. If build the prototype, a your mark on the hook because they got a direct lighted him. So I WANNA get my slice of the verse. But when we get back from the quick break, I want to talk about density the and what you saw there and the progress they've made maybe we'll talk a little bit about. You Know Board Best Practices and how you and I worked. With, Andrew Getting this company to the to the big round they just did. And then I want to talk about sports and what you think the impact that will be for early stage, extremely early stage like myself and then series and growth stage like upfront ventures when we get back on this weekend service. I want to tell you about a great online community that I recently joined. It's called trends and it is the ultimate knowledge hub from the folks at the Hustle you know that newsletter their CEO Sam was back on this very podcast. May Super Smart Cantu Guy Follow him on twitter you know he's really intelligent he likes to mix it up. And I just love what he's built trends. It is the ultimate job. As I've said, I love their recent analysis on the one trillion dollar age tech market what's that? That is the market for senior citizens and influences and the lucrative fifty, five and older demographic probably don't think about them but trans does and they do that analysis for you and they're gonNa give you the network and information you need to succeed get access to a community of industry leaders in virtually every field you'll be able to workshop ideas and network with other founders and investors, and the also have weekly live lectures with experts who teach things like Roh tragedies Seo and had to send the perfect cold email. Has Exclusive Research with intriguing topics to help educate and inspire like they're thirty companies to finding the future of media and pop culture or data thousands of successful kickstarter projects. So here's your call to action is a very simple one. I want you to join the Trans Community and you can do that right now and get your first two weeks for just one dollar go to Trans Dot Co. what's great domain name congratulations on getting that and you can start. Your one dollars trial by going to trends dot co slash twist very important. You go there trends dot co slash twit to get your one dollars two week trial got nothing to lose their trends dot com slash. You're going to love it, go check it out, and let's get back to this amazing episode. All right everybody boxers to back on the program I. POW. We've invested in a bunch of companies together. We know each other from the scene when I did my ten year tour of. duty their programming note Jamie Semenov friend of the pod from a door which became ring will be on the pod soon to talk about his flying drone security system, which I am enamored with and Andrew from densities coming on the PODCAST, he has been on the pod and longtime as well. So now that the pot is never going to end I have to circle back around with guest and get them on every three or four years and book the same people if they're still still getting done. What did you think of Jamie's flying drone the Amazon. Ring driver at fly around your home you get one I saw it in person. In, person is the. Real deal I was Jamie's house this weekend it really add drop their. Work this thing like you know La's become a really big tech scene and Kinda like in San, Francisco where you bump into people are coffee shops and around the like these are all my neighbors, right? Jamie lives I don't know I think one point seven miles down the road from me. Yeah, it's a very cool thing. I love what innovator Jamie is. The idea and I'm not sure I think this is more or less public, but you basically walk it around your. House. With your hand and it learns the of footprint of Your House and the idea is that can fly around your house and keep security while you're not home and I think it's just a really brilliant clever idea is literally what everybody wants and the price point was like three or four hundred bucks or something ridiculously cheap. It's like an old air Roomba or something. It's like an Air Room. It's basically like having your own personal drowned like a military road. It doesn't have any armaments on it, neutralize an invader, but it does have the ability to to do what you want to do when you're not home, which is, Hey, do a quick sortie of the House and give me a loop video of that. You went around the house to make sure nobody's throwing a party there or that it hasn't been broken into I. think that's brilliant. I looked at one called. Sunflower labs back in the day that was doing around people's houses but it was you know thousands of thousands of dollars and I thought that one's GonNa be coming soon, which is people put this on the roof or next to the garage, and it just does the perimeter and there will be there sensors with the sunflower labs one where if somebody crosses your front yard, the drone can go up and go. Get their picture and do you know I'm sure what Jamie will do which is facial recognition of those? Talk about density this is something you and I have been working on for years now. And by working on an investing in and be on the board of. What attracted you to density in terms that we know what your thesis was in terms of computer vision but in terms of the founder and where the company was at and then. Take us into the journey to get them where they are now, which is a Kleiner Perkins, just a very public, a big round of over fifty million dollars. The company has major customers. They've been very public about that tickets through that journey of working with a founder with you know. I think when you got involved, it was low single digit employees to now. So, as I mentioned were interested in the idea of how compute power interprets the physical world. There has to be a software service attached to that most people think cameras. I think cameras are small part of how compute power works. So we think about microphones sensors. Infrared laser radar you know all the ways of interpreting the physical world. I was introduced through Jonathan traced. From ludlow ventures, he's a fantastic investor everybody you know Detroit out of Detroit, everybody loves working with him and interestingly he was I mean talk about a mench he would when he was just had adventure from, he would just sponsor the launch festival when I was trying to get off the ground after I broke up with tech crunch Mike and he was like, Hey, listen I'll just get ten fifteen graduates to sponsor and I was like, what are you get out of that? He's like supporting you. Like a son is he, he is the classic definition of the Word Mench and he's been a real pleasure to work with and when someone like Jonathan says to me mark, you have to meet this founder. I always talk about introduction and signaling and all these things and why they're so important and why they're madder Lake Jason a few called me and said Mark You have to meet this founder. I'm going to drop things the founder. And Jonathan did that. And he knew that I was interested in the category and I met Andrew Very early. Incredibly impressive. Dementia person and he had a theory for what he thought was going to be a privacy compliant way of tracking people moving around office buildings and spaces, and I bought into the thesis and we look at what's happened with the IRS China and using cameras to track leaguers moving around for nefarious purposes and you look at the pushback that I think modern society will have against camera invasion of public spaces and workspaces. I think non-camera solutions are going to incredibly well. So he had an idea for how to solve that I met some of the team. He was attracting I always say there's two things I look for Jason Accompany really early. CADENCE of product. And you ship and the second is cadence and quality of attracting team members, and those are the two biggest tells for me and so when you get guys like Garrett, bastable who was out of apple who worked on the Apple Watch who had a ton of experience and how to source and design and build a products at scale cross-border, and that person wants to join Andrew in his mission. That's a really big tell when you look at the founding team Grazia Lee and a bunch of the people who work at. And how they followed Andrew for five years on this mission and they really he attracts and retains incredibly talented people both those things are important to me Jason Yeah the cadences amazing of both of those things and and that's I think for founder something they think they can talk you into an investment. Right. So let's talk a little bit from founder side here since it's come up and you don't WanNa talk and investor in to investing your company do you want to show them That you're a person who takes action, you have a bias towards action is the term I think Michael merits used from go over and over again we're done the only might have been the one who coined that one but I know it came out of because they kept saying it's we invested in you. You have a bias towards action that is a critical critical towel when you're making investment somebody who talks about doing stuff or somebody who is doing stuff on the regular. Yeah I you know I just had this conversation at our partner meeting. This week I was talking about a company called levels levels health where we're not a big investor in the company where a tiny investor in the company but. I love the company what they're doing. They're building value out on top of continuous glucose monitors. So again, I'm wearing right now. Oh, you are okay. It's not the levels wanted another company but I am I'm looking deeply space and I have to say this has changed. My Life is US glucose monitoring is the product the Abbott laboratories or the decks come product. It's the Abbot laboratories, which is the cheaper one that is not Bluetooth. I would not pay for the Abbot One, which is I believe the continuous glucose one, thousand, a month or something crazy extremely expensive. It's cheaper than that but but it is expensive but the Nice thing about the decks com version is with the Abbot laboratories version you have to scan your arm yes which I do twice a day now with the decks come, you don't have to scan yeah I guess it's even for Me I'm just thinking like the extra three hundred a month I'm like, yeah I'll scan my arm twice a day but I'm going try them but I do it is a game changer is and so I did it for thirty days and it taught me a lot about looking at my blood glucose levels and what causes it to spike and it was unpredictable things for me. I don't spike when I eat ice cream. But I do vats a godsend. Wow, right. But but you should try it because a lot of people don't, and the reason is not just you have the sugar but you have a lot of fat that goes with it and they counteract each other whereas if I have a bowl of cereal or even A. Tiny bowl of pasta with olive oil I'm screwed. It's so interesting. I literally got an alert because the one I'm using comes with a nutritionist I won't say which one it is and the nutritionist. What happened last night I saw you had brisket and a glass of red wine, and then we still have a spike at when I am at midnight I had a bowl of cereal with a banana. My my blood sugar spiked. It's the biggest peak I've had bananas. Bananas of the worst the worst and then milk whole milk cow milk not very good either so I just got kito some. Kito. Catalina crunch cereal a friend of mine was eating and then I started using milk or soy milk, and then it definitely put down by two thirds but you're right I ice cream thing I did yesterday as I had achieved when I did you know you can run these tests when you're doing your I had five guys double cheeseburger, thousand galleries and the small fry. Fourteen hundred dollars but I walked. A mile and a half to two miles to get it and I walked two miles back. So I to forty, five minute walks or forty minute walks. My blood sugar was like totally flatlined. It had no impact on me and I was like Whoa. Okay. This is the unlock from. Now on I am taking a walk one, hundred percent of the time if I have anything that's. CARB. To come full circle so two things one is biased towards action what I was going to mention about levels. I just amazed that their bias towards action and ability to get stuff done, and there's a lot of people competing in the category I actually liked some of the other players competing in the category I don't have a dog in the fight right now or dog in the hunt or whatever the YUP wherever the politically correct statement is. Gladiator, in the Rena there you go. Thank you. But I. But I do want to I do want to a chat in the category. So maybe they have the bet making I'm going to send it to you let let's talk flying because I've actually met met three of them and I kind of have a sense and I've been body hacking myself but but you look great by the way your let's let's do it right now. Yeah. What was your peak wait to twenty two? When we get back from this break I want to know where you're at right now we'll get back on this week in startups. Look Twenty Twenty has proven to be the year of many things. But if you ought to start up, this could also be the year you switch to better payroll Gusto wasn't just built for small businesses. It was built for the people behind their online payroll is so easy to use I use it all the time. All of my founders use it Gusto can automatically calculate paychecks and file your payroll taxes for you and. Three out of four customer say they run payroll in ten minutes or less? That's what you WANNA do which means you'll have more time to run your business to focus on your customers and build them a delightful product, which by the way Gusto is doing so well because they build such a delightful product that does time tracking health insurance for one KS on boarding commuter benefits, offer letters, and of course, access to their HR experts. And if you're moving from another provider, they can transfer all your data for you. It's no surprises. It is the greatest. Here's the best part because you're listening to this week in startups, you'll get three months totally free. All you have to do is go to gusto dot com slash twist G. U. S. T. O. dot com slash twist G. U. S. T. O. DOT, com slash twist again that's Gusto. Dot Com twist I'm telling you you're GONNA love it. All right. Mark sister is back on the pod for his fifth appearance and we are cooking with oil we're talking about continuous glucose monitoring losing weight, which is a Really important I mean if you look at this cove, it people really don't want to say this. But it kills fat people and you and I were fat. There's A. High Correlation you and I were fat you and I suffered for ten years. We talked about it you and I are friends we I hit thirteen you hit to twenty one. Turn into both. What'd you do? What'd you twenty two to twenty? Two your five eleven? I wish I'm five nine. And a half on a good day. On a Windy Day. I'm five ten perfect. So you and I are almost the same you topped out just eight nine pounds more than me. What are you now? One, Fifty Four One fifty four. Yeah. How am I took a year of fasting and just being cognizant unbelievable more. Unbelievable. Wow, and you have muscles now. So just I mean everybody wants to know about this because forty, five, forty or fifty percent of Americans are overweight right now. In your estimation having lost seventy pounds. Over what like fifteen months? Fifteen months? Okay. This is extraordinary. As I five pounds a month to pound a week for fifteen months. Credible discipline. What in your estimation are the top three things that contributed to you being obese. And you were obese that is the definition ob number one I per se pointing that out. I'm only doing it to give myself motivation 'cause I'm still obese. Before today I'm I'm teasing. Number, one was eating portion control. What I didn't realize is all the hidden calories from meeting three cups of rice, rather than one cup of rice or equivalent of three portions of cereal rather than one portion a serial. So portion controls a really big problem. If you can eat two pieces of pizza rather than five pieces of pizza, you're going to have better outcomes. Number, two just measuring everything everything I, do is quantified. So I hold myself accountable to between eighteen hundred, one, thousand, nine, hundred net calories a day k. net calories input output. So if I work out six hundred calories, I can eat six hundred calories more I try to only eat half the calories I work out. So five burn thousand calories in a workout and I'm trying to. Nail Eighteen hundred I might be twenty three hundred calories that day. And you said it which was disciplined. I've been very consistent for fifteen months. I cheat I eat ice cream pizza cereal no problem but in portions. Would you say that stress? Was An food was an outlet for stress that comes from modern day life for you or were you a Foodie or grand where there were there other reasons for that? You're over being overweight all of the above. So as you know, it's mind and emotion. If you really want to control weight, that's the single most important thing you need to get into mind and emotion explained. Look. Anyone knows the formula to lose ten pounds right? Like you just eat carbs and you exercise a little bit more and eat smaller portions. That's not hard. The question is, how do you do it consistently for fifteen months? So when you get stressed when you travel when you're not sleeping well if you're like. Low for some reason, a food is a comfort, and if you don't mentally break the cycle of the bad choices that you're making, it'll just Yoyo it comes back. Lost fifteen pounds I don't know twenty times. I had the same experience I was like twelve pound perfect losing twelve bounds but never got past then and now I feel like you really been doing well with the glucose and then just standing I think that these glucose monitors should be. Free Insurance just pay for them. In a mass way for everybody who's obese because Jason, I Love Glucose monitors and I think it's an important part of the equation, but it's like number five or six down the less Very very simple thing is if you can eat less right, you will have a significant impact on your weight more than anything else I e carbs I just thought like when I would go into carve, get rid of carbs from my life. I. Have a great six weeks and then I cheat if I allow myself to have a Bagel. Half a Bagel not to bagels and I eat a half a Bagel with three eggs, right so I get protein half a Bagel and I'm done. That's my breakfast for the day. But I used to to bagels with cream cheese and lox, and then maybe I'd have a little side and and all of a sudden it's disaster maybe hit a cookie afterwards because you're at the Bagel store and maybe you have a big chocolate chip cookie now you're disaster so. Importantly I would just say like. From the weight side it's controlling what you eat more than anything else and then movement like body movement getting out even just walking matters you've said it yourself if you walk and eat less, you will lose weight but density I WanNa talk about the city. So density what impressed me about the team was as you said, a bias towards action. And ability to accomplish a shipping product than attracting team and I just want to work with people who have a true North Andrews True North was privacy I. I'm going to solve this problem without cameras and other people are GonNa try to use cameras and it's going to be invasive and it's also going to be very expensive the process and what he used was lasers. And lasers do something called depth perception and using lasers. We can see an object and probabilistically determine is that a man or a woman, a child or an adult is that a dog or a shopping cart and the probabilistic determination of that is very accurate. It's anonymous and lower costs. Now we were already growing and doing incredible pre-coded and we were doing incredible for things like security. So there's a term as you know called them tailgating where someone swipes into people go in now if you have a solution like density you. Tailgate. We know that two people went on and we can set off an alarm and a central control system we were doing really well in hospitality. So if you're Delta Airlines if you're Marriott and you want to know in your VIP, lounge, do you have it appropriately staff? We do really well, we do really well for insurance purposes. If you have a gym are a few have a room where you shouldn't have too many people in there and you violate your insurance policy we were doing. Really. Well, we were doing really well on office spaces and helping people figure out how to better use meeting rooms we were doing well with commissaries. So your facebook you're linked in all clients, salesforce, all clients, and you want to control wind should my staff go down and get a meal? Well, if your staff can go and look and say, the Q. is thirty, five minutes long I think I want to wait forty five minutes until it's only fifteen minutes long now my most valuable resources. My staff can wait less time and then we can do line busting. So we could do line busting at. Let's say we initially did at Kaba Grill where I could say I need to staff more between eleven thirty am and two thirty or I'm losing customers like all that was going really well, and then code happen and it was a boom up into the right. We grew bookings five, hundred, fifty percent quarter over quarter. Why? Because it's not just how do you return to the office but? It's let's say you had an apparel company and you could think, well, I'm not impacted by it. I sell shirts right yet. But if you're warehouse can't ship them because warehouse workers can't go in there we are mission critical. So getting into warehouses, third party logistics getting into meat packing facilities getting into universities, and then they did something clever again on shipping product is they launched a radar base solution and the radar based solution I think is being announced in the next week or so so So hopefully, by the time, the Sarah's I'm not blowing anyone's news, but but basically, what it does is it tells you proximity of people. So we can tell you are people more than six feet apart. So you want to return to office. You not only need to know how many people come in, but you need to know proximity and that's why the company's growing. Location. DC happens to be a White House. It's a white facility, White House and they could use this activity sensor. For obvious reasons I mean, it is crazy. The time we're living in how how should founders deal with this constant noise of politics? That, they're hearing which it it is taking over the workplace and we we saw Bryan Armstrong's. Memo of Hey, like Wesley Politics at home for the eight hours here. Let's focus on work. No more political talk. Are you in favour O'Brien's position? Are you against it or do you believe it's up to each founder choose or something else? First of all, it is up to each founder to choose, of course, aggressive, and of course, there's a continuum of how people are going to react and respond and what issues they care about and don't care about I think in twenty twenty and going forward though if you don't have a policy that understands that your employees are human and are impacted I, think. It's tone deaf and the reality is like we're already in a world where we're trying to be more inclusive and if you're going to be more inclusive, how can you not care about women's rights? How can you not care about how women think about how their bodies are going to be treated and voted on and you can't pretend it's not happening around you how? Are you going to think about healthcare and the impact of healthcare on your employees because you might be a founder who's sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars, worth of stock but you're hiring people that don't have that kind of wealth opportunity and in fairness to Brian, his character would be I'm not saying you can't have those opinions. I just don't want you vocalizing them at work and creating an uncomfortable environment for people who don't want to about. That's what would your response to that? Well, let me just push Brian to the side for a minute but say I'll tell you what I believe. But if you want to have people of Color and if we've done a bad job of protecting african-americans. Protecting, even Latinos who don't get talked about a lot right now. From issues, affecting them and their family I don't think you can put your finger in your ear and say things like homeless that don't matter or black rights don't matter because those people are turning up every day and they feel attacked and they feel marginalized and they're dealing with family members and their family members are dying at higher rates not just from police they're dying from higher rates because they don't have access to healthcare, they don't have. Access they can't go on these experimental drugs that trump is going on because they don't have access so they're dying at higher rates. So I believe that if you WANNA run a modern company unique what I like about Brian's piece is stay super focused on your business, right? Like don't get super distracted. But part of staying focused on your your current business is making sure your employees feel safe and protected. And they can stay focused and for them to stay focus, it matters how their family and their livelihood Sir treated and I don't think you can put your head in San and pretended isn't going on around you. So you need to provide a forum for them to feel safe. See I think that last part of what you said the form to feel safe is the key piece to this and I think the. The iteration Brian and the entire industry should make is what is the appropriate forum to discuss these things and I can tell you what is not the appropriate forum slack. And email because anybody who's got slack instances and they have a random channel by default and the random channel is HR nightmare because that's where people post jokes that are inappropriate that might make somebody feel unsafe and then. If you start a discussion about the latest shooting. Police shooting. As an example on either side I mean a police officer being shot and people saying look you know it's A. Police are getting their comments or a black person being murdered somebody kneeling on their neck for nine minutes and murdering them like this is if you post that at work, how could any human? Not Be distracted and it's an online forum. So an alert comes up in random. George Floyd's been murdered. Riana Taylor. Police have been not convicted. This is so incredibly frustrating it's going to draw the entire company into it. So I think the rule should be. No electronic communications issues we will have forums anybody could set up a lunch for them or four PM for on Fridays or three PM former Fridays, and we discussed this people can opt into going into there and we'll discuss anything on a Friday all hand whatever it is, but putting it into a real world situation where people don't get misinterpreted and. But usually you're what you're doing is displaying leadership and leadership for me as about saying, I. Need to proactively provide a forum for people who want to be able to discuss and debate issues and then saying to them. This is the way that you should do it, and this is the way you shouldn't do it in every company gets to choose that but you can't put head in the sand and pretend that you're an African. American person is not going to be distracted when another George Floyd issue happens or when Donald Trump issues as radius latest. Racial Epithet. My family. I think you know is Jewish and you know when I see people attacking a synagogue or when I see people marching in Charlottesville and the president you know saying that both sides are are bad. You know those issues are going to distract me at work and for other people to pretend we aren't affected by is wrong. So what I try to do it upfront. Is Keep, our discussion at partner meetings about political issues to a minimum. It's the banter before the meeting starts, but then leave it at the door but we get involved in advocacy issues outside the office. During the evening I'll give you examples. You know we did. A screening of a film to talk about gender bias five or six years ago we rented out of cinema here in L. A. added three hundred leaders. We invited speakers to come talk about it. I didn't know that sexual abuse was as bad as it is. As a white male I guess. I I didn't have the same exposure to it that I should have and I'm glad that now but I knew that bias in hiring and executive and boards was a problem and we wanted people to face that issue. So we invited to an evening event and screen a film. So that's an appropriate response we knew that. Pinot reform was important to us. So we got involved with defy ventures and we started taking people to prisons and we raised money publicly at the upfront summit for them. And and we care and we want. People to understand because it's largely African Americans Latinos that are in jail we want them to know that we care. Okay. We'll get back from this break want to talk a little bit about governance and we just had a law in California a publicly traded companies are going to need to have diversity on boards and think it's a good thing to check in on and then I want to circle back around on the impact on our industry when we get back on this week and serves or more. If you're growing e commerce business. You need a platform that is focused on growth just like you are. This is like Dec maybe you're building a physical product like my eight sleep bad which I love if you are building a physical product and you're selling it to people in your e commerce, Business Cleo is critically important for you to know about they are the ultimate ecommerce marketing platform for online brands of all kinds and sizes. Whether you're just getting started or running a well known brand. It gives you everything you need to send memorable branded emails as well as text messages and more. So you can build strong relationships that keep your customers coming back with flexible automation's powerful insights and super precise targeting that last part is really important to me. Clavijo is a faster way to turn great ideas integrate customer experience. That's why it's trusted by over fifty thousand. Brad's I kid. You not like living proof huckleberry and my favorite eight sleep which I'm an investor in that. Amazing bad. That tracks your sleep patterns and you can set the temperature is a game changer but what they do they use? Flavio. and. They can send targeted messages to customers as opposed to generic ones which ones do you think will work better personalized or generic? Pretty obvious. So if you WANNA learn more about how to grow your brand with Klay Vio, just visit Flavio dot com slash twist to get started with a free trial today that k. l. a. v. i. y DOT COM slash twist. K. L. V. Y. O. dot com slash twist cleo dot com slash twist get the free trial start doing intelligent precise automation and targeting in your emails, text messages and other ways that you communicate with your customers. Okay. Thanks CLEO for supporting independent media like this week in startups. Let's get back to the show. Hey, we're back with more Schuster you can follow him Schuster. and. What's your? What's your blog I forgot both sides of the table, both sides of the table. Thank you. You've been doing the blog for a decade. That's I think how you really built. Your brand was just consistently blog had a big impact in the early days when you're starting let's face it. People didn't know Marxist was YEP. Huge impact of making yourself available. Stock a little bit about one of your team sustainability What does sustainability mean in the lands of investing specifically in companies? What is a sustainable company? What does that that they use paper cups and paper straws or does it mean to have a product that you know? You know creating paper Cups Shrines in the industry explained. The hard thing about being an investor is we have to invest in where we think the market is going to be five to seven years from now. If we invest in things that are going to be big fifteen years from now it doesn't matter if we're right. Being too early as the same as being wrong. So we have to be in a five to seven year cycle. Usually. If I'm talking about something to my investors, my LP's I say to them if my ideas obvious to you and you're nodding your head I, probably missed the idea. So I want to make you slightly uncomfortable because I want to be investing in things that you don't buy into today, and then the other hard thing is you not only to be right about the category you have to pick the right team. So. I was very early in text messaging and free text messaging being a service and I had a thesis because I lived in Europe when skype grew. And backed a team that was incredibly talented. They just weren't what's up. So we add. Tens of millions of users very early on, it was called text plus they had. Built and sold an IPO to company before. We just didn't end up being the winner now sustainability. In twenty thirteen, my partner Eve sister on, and I started saying we need to invest in companies that are solving our long-term water crisis. We need to solve our long-term water crisis means we need to solve agriculture cazadores way more water wasted Nagara culture than is wasted in your toilet or your shower, and so we took three bets in the category. One all of them were like half a million dollar bets and then we follow them. One of them was appeal sciences. And what they did is they took the waste products of. Fruit and vegetable, and they create an organic compound that seals in moisture and prevents oxidation. Without herbicides pesticides, and if you want to have an impact on water, you have to solve agriculture about forty five percent of all agriculture in the United States is spoiled before it's eaten about seventy percent of the developing world, and so really we wanted impact how long your fruit and Veg last in. The ability to take avocados have Avocados last thirty days longer is massive and what the impact has been is avocado wastage. Sold in retail has gone from about ten percent down to about two percent in the retailers that use us in citrus products. Wastage is gone from six to seven percent to less than one percent before it sold, and then once it gets to the consumers house. A, lot less is getting thrown in the garbage bin and his getting eaten by people. So that saves money. And is increasing revenue because if you go to a grocer to buy Avocados and you only buy two or three now suddenly you can buy five or six. So we saw sales go up more than forty percent in the grocers that we're using appeal. So we're now being rolled out across the largest grocer in Germany called Attica, the largest grocer in the United States, which is Kroger. And it's an invisible plant based on just to be clear it's not plastic. This is a plant based seal that goes on and Avocado. Just makes it last longer hundred percent organic FDA approved. I'll give you another example cucumbers. So you notice sometimes you go to the grocery store, they have plastic on him. That's That's the preserve it because otherwise, it doesn't last very long. So Walmart Sorry Walmart. Walmart has announced. That they're going to standardize on appeal for all cucumbers and get rid of all plastic. So that's one example I want to give you a second Jason. If you don't mind I know it's a little long winded. We've invested in a company that nobody on the skulls. Okay it's called insect. Yeah starts with a why not in I? Okay. What they do is they figured out how to grow industrial-scale worms and what they do is they grow in vertical farms it uses ninety seven percent less. Carbon than you would if you grew it in a horizontal manner. It actually has a negative carbon footprint. And we use robots to grow them. So we stacked containers the robot goes in lifts, it up feeds the worm drops, it goes in feeds the next room drop it. Now, why does any of this matter? What happened was we were depleting the world's stock of fish. We were pulling sardines and anchovies out of the population and feeding them as part of fishmeal to other fish, and that was causing a problem in terms of sustainability of fish dock. So what fish growers did is they started feeding him carbohydrates but it. Turns out a lot of fish can't digest carbohydrates. So fish mortality went up. So they started using antibiotics and amino acids in ficials is not good for the population we were starting to do to fish what we'd done to cows and chickens for generations. So what we are now able to do is use insects worms as an input to the fish. Now in the wild fish already ingest fifteen percent of all ingestion is already insects. So all we're doing is returning them to the protein that they already use. So this company. Went from having zero revenue to north of one hundred, million in bookings overnight. Wow. And they basically make little that you can feed to fish because fish eat crickets already, and so we today we only grow worms we are going to increase, but worms turned out like we tested a whole bunch of insect types, including things like crickets. The problem is when you grow them in close quarters, they become cannibals so you actually can't scale them, and what we do is we take the manure and we use them manure as an organic fertilizer. At maturation, we crushed the worm we take the liquid products and we sell it to the pet food industry to make kibbles more water soluble, and we take the dry cake powder as an input into fishmeal. Amazing, it really is amazing when you think about sustainability in the planet right now, I just had zero masks water on the podcast create panels on your roof. You put two of on your roof you get a case of water every day. And basically, it's just a matter of time before these things are two hundred dollars instead of two thousand whatever it is right now, and when that happens, we'll just pull water out of the air and the idea that will have to pay for water or that water will be some. Precious commodity, it will just go away the same way people would solar on their houses and a power wall. Now, who drive a tesla are just like energy is not a problem and we kind of live in two worlds right now some people are living in the future and they see it clearly, and then other people are determined to live in the past and maintain. Clean coal or call what I would encourage your. Trucks. I would encourage your viewers in podcast listeners to read a book called United Nations by Peters An and he's written three brilliant books that are all worth reading the I was called the accidental superpower and it talks about why the United States became so successful and then he did the absence superpower in which he predicted well before Donald trump that the US was going to. Withdraw from the Middle East and withdraw from global alliances and this United Nations is post trump and it talks about how world will be in the future as countries no longer collaborate at the same levels and when you do that, we're going to have to focus on food security, water security, energy security a cybersecurity and countries are gonNA be more reliant on technology not less reliant. It, feels to me like we're about to go through generation shift your. Gen-x not a boomer I'm Jen I'm fifty two. Yeah. I'm forty, nine, fifty in November. I can't believe my birthday's in November was twenty eighth. Wow. I, forgot my birthday. I'M GONNA be fifty in a couple of weeks I really just forgot. We were going to do this whole celebration. I was going to rent an Amman hotel bring like you know some friends to stay at Montgomery or something, and we're just like well, let's you celebrate it next year because of the pandemic. So anybody the Fiftieth Birthday Party will be a combination fifty I do not do a surprise zoom for me. Pick, and I don't want it. Let's just pretend I'm forty nine for two years and that I'm fifty in two thousand and twenty one that would be more to my liking and I want to have like a five city fiftieth birthday. I'm just GONNA. Hit each city where I have friends I'll do San Francisco, La New York and the somewhere crazy but it is interesting when you think generational. Our generation cares deeply about this. millennials. Are. They're obsessed with it, and then when you think about generation seat because you have millennial kids. And then my my kids are one generation behind millennials. Okay. So their gender or whatever they call that. NC whatever it is. And that group, it's not even they're obsessed with it it is in their. Operating, it is their operating system. Right? Your kids look at sustainability. They look at protecting the planet global warming as a default priority. They have no choice I mean, you know thirty years from now the world's going to be very different than it is today and thirty years from now. Unfortunately, I'll be eighty two and I'll be starting to think about you know. My kids generations more than own existence. But you know my kids are fourteen and seventeen thirty years from now they'll be in the prime of their life they have to care and we have to care. Are you optimistic pessimistic. Or somewhere in between probably somewhere in between I'm optimistic about technology's ability to help us solve a lot of these problems I'm optimistic that when generations of people. Start with the premise that we need to conserve the world's resources and planets that leads to better outcomes. Another book I would recommend is called collapsed. Read it. It's Jerry diamond. Guns Germans Steele Fan Yeah and wonderful wonderful book talking why societies collapse and throughout human history societies have always collapsed by over exploitation of resources and he goes through historical societies and why they collapsed but. So. So I'm optimistic for those reasons but his most recent book is about governance and how countries govern themselves and they're a little bit less optimistic and I think it's not that anything is wrong with Donald trump or Boris Johnson or. You know whoever Vladimir Putin but right now, our ability to go direct to constituents with social media means that there's more potential for leaders. You know basically to use disinformation to control masses of people to take negative actions for their personal benefit, and we've got to figure a way to combat it. It's probably the greatest challenge of our time more great challenge than climate. Yeah you know I I think this pandemic away if there is a silver lining to every crisis, does have some silver lining in some? Educational impact and. I think what this is taught us is we actually have a direct impact on the environment because we saw just how amazing the air quality got in certain countries when we were all shelter in place, I had no idea even in the bay area with some of the best air quality and the highest penetration of. What we could the the difference in the night sky the difference in the air quality was just absolutely stunning defeat the pandemic, and then when you think about how gas consumption everything just plummeted, it showed US another way of being right. Could work from home if I if I could I just wanted to take a minute to tell you when you sit across as you do. But we sit across one, hundred, ten plus portfolio companies, what the pandemic has taught us and what it's taught us is you had kind of linear process of technology adoption. So there was a predictable rate at which ECOMMERCE was growing our use of yellow medicine was growing our use of agricultural production was growing. and. What Cova did was it brought three years into the present like we fast forwarded technology adoption and I don't just mean suddenly you're ecommerce vendors got a lot more sales. Social Change hasn't been accelerated given example. In my pursuit of athletics I've been running and biking more as a result I've been in the urgent care twice in the last sixty days day one. You can see right here, which was what I was a bike wipeout. But what you can't see is I ran into a steel beam when I was running and I cut an artery in my leg warmers. And so I went to urgent care and they put in stitches and they said we may need to take you in for surgery. Tomorrow we need to see if the bleeding stops internally and imagine my ability to sleep that night like they said to me like if these things happen to your leg, make sure you come in and I'm laying in bed like myself not literally but figuratively, pretty close and my wife said to me well, I think our as telemedicine option I'm like I wouldn't even know how to use it. So she looked it up for me. I'm not exaggerating when I tell you this fifteen minutes later I had a doctor on this device pointing. A thing at my leg and he said to me push down and I pushed down and he said are your toes now my toes aren't number they called no, they're not called he smart go to bed tonight you're not going to have surgery tomorrow I said how can you know that over the phone and he said look if you had internal bleeding because your accident was already twelve hours ago if you had internal bleeding, you wouldn't see your skin pushing back as much as it's pushing back you're fine. You don't have big internal bleeding you're going to be fine and I went to sleep. I won't say like a baby that because babies wake up all the Time but I slept like a log let's say I slept like a teenager about that and but but listen to this like not only would I not have done that before but doctors wouldn't have done that before doctors can only earn what they can do in person and now doctors are going to become knowledge workers. They'RE GONNA make way more money ability to bill way more more out. So you look at you know I talked about Nana's earlier like the ability for a pediatrician to just do a fifteen minute check of you rather than having to have you sit and wait in their waiting room for an hour and a half or however long you have to. Wait like it's going to be game changing, and that's happening across every industry what used to be one or two percent of people trying some new technology a month all of a sudden became eighty percent in six months well inside the car like I love the idea of in soccer but I, never really used it that much. Now, I use it for every delivery. If you look at Chao now in L. A. based company Chow now's revenue went from like ish I don't want to give exact figures but ish twenty, million of revenue to eighty million overnight and they'll cross one hundred million very soon be on the PA they literally been booking them they they basically allow. They allow restaurants to run their own delivery services. Direct. So if you don't WanNa pay the thirty, percent commission to Post Store Daschle. Breeds, whatever. You don't have to but the thing is that for restaurants about ten to fifteen percent of their business was take out or delivery right so they just didn't invest in the software to optimize Biz in a frosty and now it is. New Things are a priority. So we accelerated demand we have another company you probably know Ethan Anderson at my time. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. So we've been doing investment. Awesome. So they're doing incredible. That's good. You know he doesn't send me up. It's so tell them your work on the yearly updates for investors but I will tell you that if you're listening we already doing incredible but with go ahead, a number of places are now to book appointments. So you can schedule employees the come. So people who took us for granted and I won't name names because I don't know if they're public but a number of like anything from hair we do marriage licenses were now doing government services were doing universities and all these people who knew they needed to automate their businesses just never prioritized, and now they are. It is amazing when you when you I don't know if you've had this experience now cities which. Like they. You know government. Workers No. No offense but they just they never met a decision. They couldn't kick down the road a couple of years and now it's like, oh, these restaurants are going to go out of business. Okay. We're GONNA. Let them have. Tables out front. Now, every community I know has this incredible thoroughfare that's like the promenade in San, Francisco and Santa Monica it's complicated Jason and I'm going to stick up for government workers and which will probably be unpopular with your constituency but let me point this out. Okay. I spent a lot of time with the city of Santa Monica About Bird. So the city of Santa Monica and the city of L. A. are very progressive about nexgen transportation. Top Sustainability Bird is electric vehicles and helping people get to the future of reducing urban congestion but here's the problem the people who vote are old. We live in Jerry accuracy. So what the City Council people would tell me as yeah, there's a lot young people who want to be on scooters none of which vote and I have these people yelling at me saying why scooters my mom exactly and so like they have to be somewhat responsive to their constituents to their loudest constituents. So of young people would vote we'd have more of the future accelerated than old people vote but that young people don't vote we know that so. You, know I actually believed like the beauty of Uber. The beauty of Airbnb the beauty of bird is they pushed the boundaries of legislation, get consumers adopting their technology, and then forced legislation to keep up but I do have some sympathy for government workers because they have to work within the confines of the rules of the society they serve. How do you advise founders? Let's leave company names out of it to protect the innocence. But when they say, Hey, maybe interpret the law or interpret the rules. In the way you want society to go I had a friend who did this with the cab company and maybe push people's buttons or interpreted laws and regulations in an aggressive fashion to move society forward. How do you mentor folks in terms of went to bend but not break regulations and manage this relationship because if you ask for permission, it's never going to happen. Let's be honest. Yeah I mean, I've even written about this on both sides table. You know my motto, which is it's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission so you know where I stand listen. Regulation. For the most part is set up protecting companies, it set up to protect the existing industries in the wasting our and that gets reinforced by how much money goes into politics to protect the incumbents. and. So if you are a taxi lobby. In Washington, DC and you're trying to protect the medallion system in New York or London or somewhere else you're going to not want innovation and so to me the beauty of Travis and what he solved at Uber was he went directly. To consumers your government is shutting down this product that people in San Francisco actually love and enjoy. So the more conflict that came the more people that downloaded the APP the more people that downloaded the APP, the more they pressured their governments to keep up and incumbents who want to block innovation because they want to protect their existing markets are never going to be in favor of it. So conflict and revolution as a growth hack you have to. It's such a no brainer. If you want to move forward, the one you're you have to you have to ethically or you have to do it ethically yes. Don't put people in harm. And don't do it in a selfish way like if you're cheating like it did seem that there were some people who took the uber or airbnb example of Hey let's let's beg for forgiveness rather especially some people did things that would be considered in their own selfishness if you are very knows. My dish shirt today there does forgot that over. T shirt today if you're if you're theranos and you're cheating and you didn't actually build the technology that's different you're not that's not bending the rules that is cheating. There's a difference when it comes to fraud like if you're falsifying information, you should not do so because you will find yourself in jail how many of one hundred startups that are pitching you how many fronts or whatever how many times you come across and find fraudulent behavior and due diligence? I mean the definition of fraud pretty broad like broadscale totally corrupt. Thousand okay. How about? diligence that when you find out about it leads to, we can't be in business with this person. How often does that happen for a VC? You know in five percent interesting one in two thousand dollars I would agree with that. I. Sometimes, I just see people do things where. You told me you had a contract. Somebody told me. They had a contract with these two big players is Google and facebook, and then diligence I asked him for you know, what am I people who work until just ask for the contracts they look over them and they said it was a verbal agreement and we said with WHO and they said, well, we talked to the head of. Facilities person that Google? And That he wanted to run a trial. That is not a contract that's a conversation that's known as a lie that's a lie. And that just decoys you why bend the Truth we don't fund liars. He had no. Hey, you must be watching I WANNA question I want to ask you about bird. And I am in love with micro mobility. But is there a business there is that a sustainable business and what does it because that's the only critique I hear about obviously everybody loves the product everybody wants to see it succeed made incredible hardware that is unique to that company but we've seen so much carnage in the micro mobility space. Is there a sustainable profitable business there? It's a good question. So if you ask journalists if you ask. The market at large if you ask everyone who has an opinion, they'll tell you know if you ask any shareholder a bird, we just had our board meeting last week who has been board who has the actual financial information. They will tell you yes and there's a reason we have and I don't want to get in trouble with the company. We have very positive contribution margin on every ride we do. Fantastic. I mean and listen the board from what I understand is my friend David sacks my other friend. Antonio. My other friend rule off so and more. Is like four of I don't know how many board members are all but four of them are close personal friends of mine and I hear, Hey, this is going to work and and so journalists wired journals. So Anti Tech. Yeah, what's happened because you know twenty years ago it wasn't like this twenty years ago people love technology. Now they just want wanna write how horrible capitalism is how horrible Jeff, Bezos says for making money and how horrible tech is why You know look again even with journalists I understand the shoes that they walk in and I tend not to be in the school of overly attacking them. But for the reason I will tell you which is. Imagine. It's your job. To Be Bullshit. You know twenty four hours a day where eighty percent of the people approaching you or exaggerating the truth or lying, and you're so tired of all the bullshit and I would say that they aired on the side of being cheerleaders for too long and so now you have some that want to be investigative reporters and to do so they got to push the boundaries of negative news and I think the tech industry doesn't like that but it's probably a healthy pendulum swing. Do I love it? No, I don't love it but I I value the job they plan society, and sometimes that means pushing back even against us. But when you get coverage of your company's nine out of ten times, a journal causing calling you it's for bad news. That's the thing I object to i. just tell them like the Senate percentage basis like. You'RE GONNA, call me with every bad news story about the companies that invest in whether it's Robin Hood Or. Uber just every tragedy you on my comment on, and then I tell you about five companies doing great things and you I can't get one positive story about I. Know Block doing something great or you know calm doing something grade or fit by like. You WanNa, meet a great company that's delighting customers. Now don't have time for that again to be fair though if you go look at, let's just take tech crunch on an average day on average day eighty percent of their stories have a relatively positive ben no I'm talking about the New York Times buzzfeed vox it's just it feels anti-capitalist anti. anti-capitalist detect. But let's let's agree to disagree on that one and then what do you think about this generation of millennials and Jesse C. or Gen Z. whatever they wanNA call themselves it'd be their decision I guess. Being, anti capitalism does that concern you throw I am going to answer that I just WanNa tie a bow around bird because what I WANNA do is say Our revenue is up massively we've recovered very well from covid all across Europe they are painting extra lanes there blocking off cities and they're addressing the fall following sustainability problems. Number One, they know that they don't want people on subways to the extent possible number two they don't want people on buses to the extent possible number three they don't want cars and congestion their cities to. The extent possible. All of the macro trends favor bird. So they're they're both promoting European cities are promoting Eh bikes, scooters you know a bird, we don't define ourselves as a scooter company micro ability company. We have a lot of modes of transportation including. We have ceded vehicles already. So I like the CD's vehicle thing I. think that's the big winning format is that one winning? It's doing well. Scooters have much bigger scale scooters have much better unit economics. Today we think the future will involve sitting and standing and and we're going to be part of inventing that future, and if you want to get to the future of autonomous vehicles or the future of clean vehicles, you're going to have long range winners like Tesla. But you're going to also have to solve urban problems in urban problems are not going to be solved only with cars, and so I love that there are people like Travis who are innovating a bird and creating solutions for us, and by the way, the city of Chicago is now rolling out scooters they weren't doing it before the city of New York is now saying they're eventually going to embrace microwave ability city of London had banned micro ability and has now encouraging it everybody knows due to Cova they've got solve this problem. Yeah, and and it makes sense and you just think about equity and fairness. You know there's a lot of people who are out in the boroughs who maybe don't have the opportunity. To get transport where they need to go, and this is why Uber Pool or lift line or Mike from ability is so critical and having grown up in those areas in Bay Ridge Brooklyn. The idea you can only get a car service which was illegal car service. We pay cash and probably didn't have insurance for driver's license to be totally honest. So listen. I want to answer to answer your question about capitalism. I'm going to give another book recommendation must must must read for you Jason for your followers. It's called Americana. American America. Peter Zeon accidental superpower I got back. This united America Americana is the four hundred year history of capitalism in the United States yum. Yum and it is written as narrative of all the people who created value in our country. It goes through the corrupt history of our origins around slavery. and. Why slavery existed and how much value are created in how how was valued relative to for example, the Goldrush, the value of all slaves in the United, states as assets that were owned, which is a terrible part of our history was more valuable than all the gold discovered during the gold rush just to tell you how valuable it wasn't why the south didn't give it up. But it goes through steel auto industry canals just bought it just on audible and. Importantly. Capitalism is the single best system that's ever existed in humanity for creating equity and fairness and growth, and providing for the massive amount of people. Like Winston Churchill famously said about democracy it's the worst form of government except for everything else right capitalism has problems and we need to address the problem with capitalism. But when I tried to explain this to my children because when you're young everyone believes socialism is the answer. The problem socialism is more people died in China. From inability to actually feed its own people under a communist system than died in the world, war why? Because if you don't have an incentive to produce more products, you don't have the ability actually to feed populations and so when they switched to a quasi communist quasi-capitalist people at incentive to produce more, they were able to feed more people. The second problem with socialism is I. Mean Parts of socialism are good like providing for basic things like healthcare, but part of it is like a pure socialist or communist like heart. Bleeding heart I, WANNA provide for everyone I understand the emotion but the problem is somebody has to control the structure of how we make decisions and if it's not the invisible hand during that, it ends up being people who live in other people's pockets and help stay in power by distributing resources. So you end up with corrupt governments in systems and the bat is key problem is you you you start looking towards the government to solve your problem and then the government is humans and the government is humans who have. Entrepreneurial aspirations and what are they do? They always get graph they. Let's try and get money out of this. Let's take Donald Trump. Okay. Yep. So Donald Trump trying to decide where we should build factories where we should build jobs. You know who should get contracts whether or not you say positive things or negative things about him like that command and control type of decision making it exists if you end up in the far right which were donald trump is the exact same way of allocating resources exists in the Far Left. So capitalism as problems the way to solve those problems is to make sure that we have some amount of government oversight. So Americana goes through how the government even got in the regulation business in the first place because they didn't used to be in the regulation business, they talk about the world that existed pre regulations. So when we were direct marketing drugs to consumers who were then consuming drugs and dying on masks because there was no FDA. Right, and so you had a government body that was tasked with protecting the lives of our citizens. So like there's some good that comes out of government as much as we could slam that but. But the reality is that the left and the right? Both have the same incentive structure to ultimately end up with leadership but I go back to the problem. The problem is social media and the ability for people to manipulate large amounts of people directly without a filter controlling that voice because that's what undermines the views of democracy and capitalism is the ability of people to spew out things that emotionally sound good like get foreigners out of our country. Or get Amazon out of our country are free college for everybody or forgive all college loans I mean this is well, but let's let's be clear. We already accept the idea that free high school and free primary schools. Good. So the idea of free education is not per se battre corrupted. We just have to have a discussion about whether US funding that with our tax base is going to improve the overall work and skills of Americans or not right. Or if it's going to go primarily to unions and union leaders or if it's actually going to have efficacy where it's going to protect bad teachers I, mean these are all like super important issues, right? Yes and you know I tend to be a free market person. So I worry about the idea that you have unions protecting. Everything to do with teachers, right. So I do believe all employees deserve basic protections, and by the way by the way, the book Americana goes through how unions got created why they got created, what good they did and what bad they did. So you'll get the whole history of where do you fall out when you look at police, unions and teachers. Unions are these net benefit for society or are they now working against the common good of humanity or at least Americans would say they definitely started as a net positive for our society where are they now? I'd say look they have good and bad but I worry about the bad. Yeah and I think that's what happens when you over setup institutions that have collective bargaining and overtime end up passing things that are populist but aren't effective. Yeah. I mean competition for schools would be such a wonderful day when I, talked about starting a micro school I got targeted by from what I understand in the back channels the teachers unions who are really afraid that I was going to do the basic math of public schools spend fifteen thousand dollars student teachers get paid fifty sixty, seventy, k.. For four or five six students together families even public school families. Kind of equals the same amount of money and you Mike Mike Moore school might be a viable option. The idea of saying a micro school might be a viable option is terrorizing teacher unions from what I understand but throughout history, and you can read a lot of this in the book. The warmth of other suns which talks about the great migration of black people from the south to the north and Mid West and California. The history of education in our country has been white privilege people diverting dollars in resources away from training African Americans, and we have to be honest without an address that. So it's what I believe in competition we should have teacher competition, but we've got to figure out how we spend more dollars more resources really making sure that inner cities and people who don't have access to capital or competition are getting the level of education that they require. The framing of the education issue is one of the issues. When you point out, we already have socialist education. This is true and we're doing it from K., through twelve, which is thirteen years I think pre. K. and some places. So it's fourteen years. If we said, we'RE GONNA add two years. Of specifically technical training that was court highly correlated with outcomes in high paying jobs or jobs that were in demand across the globe. You'd be saying spend twelve or fifteen percent more on education, but those last that last twelve or fifteen percents going to result in a tremendous amount of our in terms of high-skilled jobs for people who maybe are coming from really challenged backgrounds. That's a perfect. There's three realities we need to face reality. One is that having everybody go in person for university doesn't make economic sense and doesn't make logistical sense. It costs too much money for us all to go to limited size classrooms in a world in which technologies available in disrupt. So we have to figure out how to educate the masses without everyone having to be in person number two it's not appropriate for everybody to go to a four year general purpose, general skillset university. There are going to be people who benefit from that and Jennifer benefit from that general. Discovery but we've got to get back to the idea of vocational training coming out of World War Two. The appropriate thing was to get more and more people through a four year Generalized University degree twenty twenty it's just not pragmatic, and by the way some of the skills we should be teaching our computer base skills, which may not mean the era programmer you might be a test or you might be a visual designer, but we need more people teaching vocational skills, number three as if you really want to have an impact on education we need to start. providing. More free education and preschool right because if you really want to have better outcomes, we've got to get people when they're two and three and four because getting word development and getting basic skills when they're young is probably a better predictor of outcome than adding two years at the end. When we look at specs. This is exciting. I had one of my companies desktop metals going by back I had rick full on the pod. Got Four or five other companies that you know could keep having fact promoters contact me about and say, Hey, you think com or. Think Robin Hood or a thumb tack or whatever, and I know like you got to talk to them it's really not my place but. You know we have half the number of publicly traded companies. Now my French Amaafuza is. Piling up. My friend mark. pincus piling up this packs now apparently. What impact will this have on our business you and I early stage investors? Positive. Is it bad positive and negative? Okay. Walk us through like most things in life he has So let's understand our basic fact, which is twenty years ago successful companies. The best of the best went public in six, sixty, eight year timeframe after being founded. And they were raising money when they were smaller and younger and most of the appreciation the gains that came for the company came in the public markets hey. So that was a net good for public investors that was not necessarily a net good for venture capital. Now, the good thing for venture capital. The good thing for founders is we got the quantity earlier and that's a positive fright. The bad thing is we didn't capture the tenax. So look at Uber like your net worth is dramatically increased because it stayed private for longer if it was to hold yeah, and and you may have chosen to be a public market investor but. But being private for longer benefited people. So what happened was? In the last ten years the Best Company for staying private eleven to thirteen years or longer. So what happened was money move from the public markets into the private markets and funded them on a private basis so capital availability meant they could stay private they preferred to stay private because they didn't WanNa have to deal with the machinations of the public market and the vultures that are out there who tony yeah the scrutiny and whatnot. And so they stay private longer. So people like up from ventures benefited because our company stay private and we were able to raise growth vehicles that could then invest in their private round. So all of the value capture happen in the private market, but generally speaking I think it's a healthy outcome to get more companies public because you know as they say, whatever sunshine cures, all wounds or whatever. I don't know where the sunshine is the best disinfectant. There you go. Thank you. And I believe that and so it will. It will lead to best outcomes when companies have more public scrutiny of how they're operating and how the companies are doing. So I think generally, it's good. I think John back coming or no. Listen we get must be circling. The people must be paying you and saying we'll bird goes back I'd say every late stage company we have is getting circled. So that's a better way of saying how would you frame it for a company like that? Would you want them to go public? Would you want to say providence keep iterating? So for me, it's really more a question of access to capital. Right. So if you need three to five, hundred, million dollars. Then you say to yourself is that more available in the private markets are in the public market so in the last five years, it was only available in the private markets I mean it was mostly available in the private markets. Now, the pendulum swung and there's a lot of money now in the SPEC industry. So a lot more companies are now having the discussion about whether they should use this as a fundraising event. So solidify their market leadership position I mean for me I think. I have been thinking about how long? I'm having to hold them positions that I would like to have twenty thirty percent. Liquidity maybe but that can be solved and is is being solved in the private market slowly slowly I'm having happened. Yeah. Yeah and then you I mean just this a possibility of. A great founder being able to use that public currency a really intelligent way in the way bazo stead or Google or facebook. Did I mean they really use their equity in those cases to buy Youtube instagram etc, and the best entrepreneurs will cause you have a premium if you do well in the public markets in that premium allows you to acquire companies that don't have the premium. That's the case of Google and Youtube. If rain was still private in this speaker, they would expect wouldn't probably. I don't see why not I mean. I would've I would've loved that company to stay private. But I I don't fault Jamie because Amazon is a great company and he's partnered with a great company worked after Tony Shay one thing that. Really gets which I think the Google team learned later, which was just leave them independent if it's working, don't break it. Like don't you don't need to break high functioning founder and culture at whether it's Zappa or youtube or whatever. It is just let it sit over there and operate totally agree. So acquire companies that are already great at running themselves. Yes. There you go that what a great idea? Should they break up facebook? I don't know probably not I probably err on the side against it I mean like one of my people I. Respect the most on on the left is Reid Hoffman I had them at the upfront summit I asked him directly about the question of breaking up big tech I thought he had a really strong intelligent counterpoint, which is look these companies are competing on a global scale. And IF THEY'RE GONNA COMPETE AGAINST CHINA IF THEY'RE GONNA compete against India we're going to compete on a global scale. It's not sufficient to say every US company must be small in every global company than to compete on a basis of having a skeleton. GonNa. Ankle ourselves. This is the thing. People don't realize we're in global competition versus a communist country that has millions of people. Let's face it. In in concentration camps I, mean you're Jewish I don't want to offend you but when you look at the week or situation as Jewish person. When I say that feels like a concentration camp to me that does not offending you that doesn't offend me I actually think the same thing and draw the same conclusion. Yeah I mean, we're sitting here and you think this is the failure of the trump presidency when you look at it. There's many failures to look at it. I don't want to move literal show. There's a lot is dangerous. There's a lot of things I would put on trump, but I don't think you can put the problem from well I put Hong Kong on him, which is he said nothing. And if you empower China to take rollover Hong Kong. That basically means you can't even mention the workers and then you look at Taiwan. Is that Xi goes you know what I got trump in office for three more months. Maybe we maybe we make a run at Taiwan read this United Nations. It explains to you why it's not so simple and why Taiwan is well-protected in the future and he actually predicts an alliance between Taiwan and Japan. Makes Total sense in there to highlands that are incredibly. Spirit of cultures and we need to defend that independence I. think see why capitalism matters we we give up capitalism plus democracy than China wins with capitalism plus authoritarianism. The limitation of venture capital intact is that we are very myopic and we think the whole world evolves around tech companies, but the real money in the world, the real trade in the world is around resources, right? So energy resources food resources. Mineral commodities and whatnot So what he does in the absence superpower is he plots the shipment of oil and why a Singapore is so well positioned and how oil gets from Singapore up into Japan up into mainland China up into Taiwan, and he talks about naval supremacy and the fact that actually the people who are really good at naval warfare are the. People who are going to control the distribution of oil and predict something. He calls the tanker wars, which is that increasingly we're going to be at low grade war for delivery of oil across. Southeast Asia and in that world, the single best navy in the region is Japan Yup and so said, the Japanese are much better protected than we you know kind of. Think. So in tech, we don't think about these things but if you wanNA understand where the world's. Book you have the alliance between Taiwan. That was this United Nations dish United Nations by Peter Zeon. Got It. I am a same author. We gotta get him on the pot for sure. Okay. I just I just bought. Okay. I bought a bunch of books what a great appearance I can connect you with he used to be head of research for a geopolitical strategy from called strap for. Yet phenomenal, and he does he looks at topography. And demographics to predict what's going to happen in the world, and if you want to understand what's going to happen in five to seven years, which is the job of a VC having a view of like geopolitical movements is critical. It is super critical for sure. Does me. You're bullish on Europe. We're not bullish on Europe. I'm not bullish on the integration of Europe. I'm very bullish on France France has. A long history of having advanced sciences and engineers in into electoral. A population of France has a very strong agricultural base and very strong energy based like the United States pro nuclear pro-nuclear France has very good river structure. So on average, it's I think one seven t the cost to transport products, Phya river versus via Land Rivera. The water is providing the electricity. So the history well, that's a that's an aside electricity but the history of the United States is that we succeeded because we had to oceans protecting US, which turns out matters. It's very hard to attack another country if you can't land there but but what happened was we have twenty one, twenty, two, thousand miles of navigable rivers for which we could trade and transport product much cheaper than anyone else because we could manufacture trade. And transport much cheaper than anywhere else and we didn't have to spend our money on defense. We had a lot of excess capital and we spent at capital on canals rile because we did canals and rail and deep water ports. We had an advantage going into the post industrial age, and all of this came from topography and his first book, which is the accidental superpower explains all that. Amazing. Great Great Appearance Today if you want an investor on your cap table. Listen Up Front is into sequoia or benchmark hasn't been around as long as those firms maybe but mark Sushi is one of the great vc's I watch him do it. I watch him do the work on boards I watch his interaction with founders and he's he's right up there with the greats and a really great great parents today really appreciate the honesty and let's let's book for next year Nick Four years we gotta we gotta get Mark on yearly like yearly update at least on the I mean just on. The reading list alone great rape appearance. Yes. Neck I'll do with pleasure. Okay. All right. We'll see you all next time on this week in startups.

Jason founder Jamie Semenov Alzheimer partner Gusto Andrew United States Parkinson Gusto Amazon Gusto dot Abbott laboratories San mark sister Clavijo C. Day Angel Investment
E1101: News! Apple vs. Epic Games, TikTok CEO resigns, SPACs, Unicorn IPOs & more with Acquireds Ben Gilbert & David Rosenthal

This Week in Startups

2:24:44 hr | 3 months ago

E1101: News! Apple vs. Epic Games, TikTok CEO resigns, SPACs, Unicorn IPOs & more with Acquireds Ben Gilbert & David Rosenthal

"This week in startups brought to you by Vanda compliance and security shouldn't be a deal breaker for startups to win new business vantage makes it easy for companies to a sock to report fast twist listeners can get one thousand dollars off for a limited time advantage dot com slash twist del for entrepreneurs small business month at Dell save up to fifty percent off select products and take an extra five percents off going launch dot co Slash del and Maude Loft. The only modern furniture brand that offers a design fair prices and delivery in days not months see why founders venture capitalists and celebrities choose law. Get fifteen percent off and free shipping at MoD LOFT DOT com. Slash twist. Hey everybody. Hey, everybody it's your boy jake how I am so excited to have back on the program two of my favorite guests Yes ben Gilbert and David Rosenthal are back on the pod. You know them because they have a great podcasts called acquired. FM and they have a paid version of it, which is called the L. P. Show which I listened to because these two cats are smart and they're opinionated and one of them has a delightful radio voice. and His name is not been. David has that sole tree radio voice to go ahead and give that NPR welcome. Well. As my dad likes to tell me, I have a face for radio as well. So. I mean, you'd literally sound. Like you have double the testosterone of bed I combined ben say hi to everybody. Hey. How's it going? I am the lesser half of acquired. Ben Of course is the CO founder of Pioneer Square labs and up studio VC fund in Seattle. He's good at what he does and David is the CO host angel investor along with him if you don't know about acquired fm yet. GO TO ACQUIRE DOT FM they do a great PA. We did a crossover episode and we have Great Chemistry I think we have great chemistry was pretty tastic. Yeah. mean. We tell the story of epic institutions and normally that's a company. But in your case, it was the story behind the Jason Calcareous Empire. So that was that was fun. I was a guest on yours. We did a two parter and I love when you break down like these epic stories on the Pod now when you break down an epic story of company. Is that only available to the Alpine listeners because I, I just paid for at some point it's at my feet and I don't even know the difference. This is one of the problems we have two podcasts one pay one not paid 'cause no, that's for everybody. It's it's. Timely and appropriate. You're saying an epic story because probably right around the time this comes out we will drop our acquired canonical episode on epic Games okay. We're also going to talk about here. I think yeah we're going to talk about it right after I look up the word canonical I think that means the history is that what the fancy way saying the history or that water something's in. The definitive official. Okay. Good love it but anyway, I was listening to you. I was driving back from La because I like to Dr L. A. San Francisco when it was just a to my girls on a Little Beach Vacation little surfing with them to do it a autopilot. Actually, interestingly, my wife took my model three and I drove our minivan which we have this beautiful Honda Odyssey, which was delightful, and it actually has like stay in the lane and a data. It's a cadillac minivans. So I was kind of rocking a minivan and it was a good humbling experience for me to not drive time for a week. But I was I did listen to your seven powers. You had the guy from seven powers on Oh Hamilton. That's a smart cat. I like that Guy and I think that's worth it. A two books I wanted to recommend to both of you. I just read a book called I love capitalism. Have you read that yet? No, it's. It's the Guy Ken Langone or something the guy who did home. Depot. And is a pretty good bug I. Think you guys would like it because it kind of has that canonical storytelling that you're so fond of. His Home Depot venture backed I. Think it's like rattling your in my head somewhere. What it that's the best part of the story and we're GONNA have monarch pod but you'll probably get him before I do but. We it's basically a banker guy who is like an emanate guy like an Allen and company type banker who was working with the previous home hardware stores and then put together with Ross Perot. And other investors and it's just like this like it's it's a kind of what the seventies and the eighties and the talent of the nineties and it kind of ends with Eliot Spitzer and hookers so I'm GonNa leave it at that. because. It's so goddamn good. I saw the name of the book I love capitalism. This way to read this book if there ever was God love capitalism. And then the other book I just started was hot hand. which is about the concept of streaks in a it. It really is a very good book because it talks about people who've had tricks that have ended and it goes into the history of Steph Curry, Steph Curry and him having that Ma- Madison Square, Garden Game when he was a bench warmer and then he breaks out and You know it's a it's a Lotta stuff that we've all heard about the hot hand and all this stuff and it's not real. Statistically that's all Michael Mollison on you but that's what the book comes. Let's leave it to the we have to read the book, and before you actually come to that because there may be some things that are true about the hot hand but let's get. Let's get into the news. You guys, would you guys read this? Give me a book re book your reading over the summer. If you have one, you're listening to a reading over the summer meme will tomorrow. As we say this, we're GONNA have her next acquired lp but clicking Jason you should you should join try me at the will thorndike author of the outsiders. Awesome. It's about its case studies of eat. Outsider. Quote Unquote. CEO's often first time CEO's didn't have emanate didn't have MBA's do investor relations but just like where was there one? Is your favorite of those outsiders eight outside I mean Warren Buffet's on there. Okay. John Malone. Katharine Graham From The Washington Post. Henry Singleton Teledyne like Disney. Classic. You guys show. It's just like we if we were out at a bar instead of talking about sports, we talk about CEO's companies like which such capitalist nerds it's ridiculous. Do you have a book on your podcast? We should focus on this. Looks I mentioned are in the this week in startups book clubs, which is Mondays at eight six o'clock. Once a month you guys requesting advantage. So we're doing those two books next to what you, what do you got on your shortlist of marine men. It's an old book but I just finished reading creativity ink, the history of Pixar Oh. My God it's somewhere right behind me. I had at Caddo Mo on the pod for to Carter. Negative. Send the link I will try and get his emails on the Intro I kid you not I'm GonNa give you boys a tip on as your big brother in podcasting. This took Emmy Award winning producer Jackie eighteen months and I said to her there's the book right about my head Sara creativity but. I just was so taken by this book. and. I was like I need to have a cap on the pod it was episodes. Six, six, five, and six six a lot of our people refer to the episodes numbers because we get so many of them now. And Man what a great book Yeah I'm excited to go listen to the those couple episodes because th-. The thing that picks are nailed. That is an incredibly difficult thing for any organization to do is being creative. So trying lots of stuff but being successful repetitively. Yeah. Street the hot hand. And did they have a hot hand and Disney? Previously had the hot hand if you read the Michael Eisner Book, Did you read? The Robert Egger book did you read out of a lifetime so good so good and if you think about it, he talked about the streak of the Little Mermaid. The Lion King. And beauty and the beast. Yup. But then they went cold Tarzan. Weird. Yeah. LE- lowered stitch. Cats and Berg glory days. Some wack Shit I'm sorry nick starting. From the backer produced describe this and talk to you by your therapist about it. Okay. Not here. But your girls are probably right in prison age, right? You know what they did frozen for a heartbeat and then I'll say you know what I I don't want my daughter's on the princess industrial complex is my friend soccer called it shows like they started getting to dinosaurs. I was like. This is literally my four year old twins semi. Jurassic Park is the most terrorizing movie for children. It's completely agent appropriate for four year olds. You need to be eight years old to see it and they said, can we please it and I said sure. I said, but I'm warning you right now a dinosaur is going to eat a lot of people and it's going to be bloody. Are you willing to closure is if you get scared and we'll pause the movie and to my daughter's credit they did that I have now watched all five three original Jurassic Park one two and three. One, in the order is really one three, two in terms of good they are and then Jurassic world which is actually pretty fantastic. The drastic world series fallen kingdom, and there's another one coming out dominion. Because they want to know what happens when the dinosaurs takeover. So the final the sixth one is going to be the dinosaurs have taken over the world and humans have to live in a dinosaur world. With PTERODACTYLS and Mussa sources. Tournus rexes just roaming freely and there's there was no direction to go. But there I, mean that's the like standard planet of the apes playbook because we're now in their world. Yeah. So thanks for tuning into media selections for or the rest of this. For the pandemic, that's what we were doing on this. News Roundtable but let me just preview for everybody as we do this by the since we're doing it let's just do TV shows. Let's just do TV shows and get it out of the way, and then we're going to get into the news Best thing. You Binge watched. That's been great in pandemic for whatever reason you like it. Yeah. Just finished watching men in the High Castle Four Seasons. Show that N. so unsatisfying Lee so I just WanNa. Say That for anyone who hasn't watched it yet like you're in for sort of a game of thrones like finish and just. Going in but enjoy the ride you're on. Okay. I started it and I got into a situation with my wife 'cause we kind of have this agreement about. I. Don't want to cheat on my wife on which streaming which lead on that because the new version. Is If you watch a show without her and she started started watching. With the girls and she like star. Wars and then she's been like a big fight is what we fight over. What do you got for me David what he'd been watching? My wife and I have been watching Shits Creek together. which is like the perfect. What is shits? Creek I don't even know what that is. What is it's Creek Oh man down Dan Levy and his the son of Eugene Levy member the American Pie guys super famous comic They Will Dan, his son created this whole show and the whole families in it. It's. So what is it? Is it an ABC Netflix Amazon while it's a Canadian show, they're Canadian. So it's on it's on net flicks, all except the last season this is what I love doing is finding those obscure shows on other networks. So. Let's give this credit for being obscure like this is an incredibly mainstream thing that just somehow you missed it jason but this is like, okay, this is like a block talk show. A lot of great things from Canada, but it's in the top left box of of Netflix. Okay Yeah. All right I'm going to check that out. My pick is I may destroy you. which is an HBO series which deals with a lot of issues around race. sexual identity, and memory. And, drugs and assault or a gray area of salt, and it is a tour de force because the woman who stars in it. wrote it is a spoken word artist and also seems to have an extreme talent for storytelling and it is it starts off a little bit like where is this going and then it just gets to a pace. It's not for kids obviously but at and it's very kind of millennial slash even closer to Gen Z. and its approach, but it's so hbo just knows how to spend money. Every time watching HBO show. I'm like HBO Show It's just the quality is just too good. They spent too much money on this and hopefully that keeps up I mean that's been the hallmark of our brand forever and then at and T. now they're like, well, what else can we jam into this God seem to these guys don't screw it up when we get back, we're gonNA talk about talk about screwing it up. We're GONNA talk about apple screwing up every single aspect of developer relations we're going to talk about Tik Toks. CEO Resigning and deciding he would resign from the Chinese Communist. Party we're. GonNa. Talk about the bidding war from Walmart and the SEC is changing accreditation laws. Oh, I love you. Thank you finally finally it's been a long run, but this is big for J. Cal and I'm excited stick with us. All right. This deal from vantage is so good I wanNA start my ad read with it. Vantaa is giving our listeners think about this a thousand dollars off their first sock to by going to vantage dot com slash twist. That's not a joke one, thousand dollars off vantage V. A. N. T. A. dot com slash twit. So why is sock to compliance? 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And he said Fanta was essential in helping them get their sock to compliancy set up and maintained, and he loves the tie INS with Google slack and. Aws, which is really essential for Kitty Hawks business use van to people and get that thousand dollars off just like notion Laddis. Testing and hundreds of other successful companies who got their sock to reports Fanta in weeks not months unlock those sales and give your employees all that time back in their calendar to work are more business critical assignments so much get done right now use an expert that expert is Fanta and they're giving twist listeners one thousand dollars off their subscription Advanta dot com slash twist. I don't know how long they're gonNA keep this. So I want you to take advantage of it right now van dot. com slash twist. All right. My guest today are the CO hosts of acquired FM you are required to go pay for acquire DOT FM L. P.. If you are a founder if you are an entrepreneur if you care about the technology industry they put a shit ton of work into every episode and the L., p. stuff is the hotness I think it's about I. Don't think he charges about It's about one hundred dollars an episode it's about five thousand a year for that content. Is Not it is. It is the low price of one hundred dollars a year Jason I just have to say, ridiculous. I don't want to mislead people to like think that it's this thing they shouldn't go listen to the main show. We do tons of work do deep dives on companies like we tell the two and a half hour epic story of epic games like that's totally free and available to everyone for people who are actively like building companies and want to go deep into things like how does a vc firm work and rights decisions there and what do titles me and all that stuff that's what we do saliva basics but also deeper dives. Anyway it's. It's literally honestly I thought it was one hundred dollars a month I would still think it was underpriced it get now because I really think they should. RAISE THE PRICE ACQUIRED DOT FM. Our first story is apple fighting epic Games for those of you don't know EPA Games is a publisher at software developer. Make Fortnight, which is I believe like the most successful game, one of the most successful games in the history of video gaming. But importantly, they make the unreal engine, which is a video game engine that powers other games the founder is Tim Sweeney. He's the founder and CEO over fifty percent of the company ten Santa owns like forty percent of the holding company got Seventeen Billion dollar valuation. and in June epoch CEO Tim Sweeney sent emails to apple saying, Hey, listen fortnight makes a lot of money thirty percents hack of a take. Can we get a discount? Can We? You know not pay for or change the take rate of the purchases which also happened to be the subject of the was the Senate hearings antitrust timings in the house, the house. Hearings, and so this is front and center for everybody our boys over Jason, Freidan, David. Hammer Hanson both have been on the program in the last year with hey dot com they also got a big fight with apple. An apple is getting horrible pr about this and. Then epic from what I understand decided. Screw. We're GONNA jump. The fence would jump in the fence when you asked to buy something inside a fortnight where sending you to a website, which is ix nay on the rules nee according to Apple and Apple is like we don't ever change the rules for anybody except when I think it do except they do like where they had Eddie. Gave Amazon a better deal. And then Now during court. All of the developers are slowly lining up behind epic and by quietly because you. Obviously. It's quietly because you don't want to poke the tiger that would feature you and you don't want to mix it up with apple which goes to show that apple has too much power. If if your partner's are that scared of you, they're afraid to talk to you and the only person who's not afraid is a maniac like David? Hammer Hanson whose pastime starting fights or. Epic, who's fifty percent controlled by our Jason Canister Jason Calcutta's like if the only people were willing to fight with, you are crazy people. That's one thing. But if all have control of their companies control companies, but if you're scared of them, that's something else. So let me just drop to you David. What is your take on what is happening right now and the insertion of epic. into the fight as opposed to this being a fight with this little. Hey Dot com on the side which people can I think dismiss but epic dropping this bomb. After those hearings seems to me to be a double punch that I don't think apple is going to recover from what do you think David Yeah I think this is a huge deal. This is a major major crisis for Apple. I mean you mentioned a little bit about epic and its CEO Tim Sweeney. This is like this is not a norm all. This is not another public company with shareholders. Of course, he has outside shareholders, but like Tim is you gotta understand. So epic is based in Cary North. Carolina. It is a very, very large company. Of course, it makes fortnight which lots and lots of people play and have heard of three, hundred, fifty, million players worldwide I think But more importantly that they make the unreal engine which powers. So many other things like not only does it power other games it powers Pudgy player, unknown battlegrounds, one or the other largest largest games out there It also linked the Mandolin. We're talking about star wars earlier like literally the television show the man to Laurean was filmed on a soundstage all of it win with a screen like a three sixties screening in this room that was made in unreal I was talking. I was talking to John Fabric about that actually and how he shot it and how he's able to do it. So quickly and the cost of it because he did use real models for certain things, but the actors were on stage in this essentially. Avoid, it is a gigantic harnack. Around you. That is all rendered using the unreal engine by epoch. So this is not just picking a fight then David. Let you wrap here and then we'll get bed in on this. This is not just a fight with. Epic and fortnight. This. Carries with it the possibility that anything. Unreal. Related Unreal. The engine could get in on this fight. Yet I mean, they are in on this fight whether they like it or not, and the thing about Tim. Tim owned he owns a little less than half of the company, but he controls the company. It's a private company, Tim Lives in North Carolina. He's not married doesn't have kids he doesn't hang out with celebrities. He has like some fast cars that he drives every now and then but basically, he just works on epic and like that's all he cares about like he. He drinks diet coke and eats like bojangles fried chicken. You'd told The Wall Street Journal like that's mostly what he does. So this this like epic epic literally epic Youtube video of like MTV cribs style tower with him from the late two, thousand, eight Ben and at its too. So class just like an engineer he's like this is my dining room I've never eaten it I just work all the time like. legit. Principal Guy is a way of sadness. So how does that contribute Ben to his positioning of this and do you believe that this fight was timed with? Tim Cook Ten apple being. Tim Grilled Tim appleby grown. Barbeque. No comment on where Tim Apple comes from but. The So was it timed with Apple's antitrust hearing absolutely like I think that is Perfectly, planned it but is tim a principled idealist Tim Sweeney here of course, the battle, the TIM's. Is he principal idealist who's doing this for some greater good also yes, like right. This is. It's not just about money because what percentage of fortnight's Rev. because for ninety desktop gave. Wealth percent from us. All right. So this is this is chump change for him because it's if it's twelve percent than he's talking about thirty percent of twelve percent. So it's three percent it's chump change, but it's two hundred million per year, which is exactly chump change it's three. So. In other words if you were hey, dot com you. If you're not on an IPHONE, there's no way for people to use your business. You're done it's like literally at your it's eighty percent. This is three percent, right? So he can fight. So, what it's about for Tim, and he wants to give all that savings back to players. Anyway, he doesn't want that extra revenue with this is about is having an open. APP ECOSYSTEM APP store ecosystem, and that's a story. But like all of the infrastructure and services to run games to run experiences to run entertainment, that's what he wants, and that's what apple has not been providing like there's a reason why the most innovative besides fortnight and Pudgy which runs on unreal engine the most innovative games and experiences of the past ten years. Legal Legends Doda to. Watch there's a reason these things aren't in the APP store and it's this while said this this is amazing. I had an interesting idea I want to run up the flagpole with you boys see if anybody salutes okay we'll put a little toasted in the toaster and see if it turns Brown I want to know this is a crazy power move. If epic. Bought or partnered with something like remember htc phones everybody loved those or there's like the one phone that. Apple. Some android nerds US I was thinking about getting one I just kind of like the Pixel. Let's say there's somebody with an ax to grind against apple. Oh i. know who's got an axe to grind. It's apple android phone makers have an ax to grind inherently they're at war with already. If they made a fortnight. IPAD competitor. And a fortnight phone. And it was, let's just say they partnered with HTC or Samsung, and if you use that phone you would get. A certain amount of other fortnight dollars where do they call them in forty? Bucks v Box. You buy this phone. You. Get Ten v Box Day. What is the value? What do people spend on average? We know? People's dollar Wales business it's business. Yeah. All right. So let's just let's just let's just set the table here. Buy, the phone. You Get Ten v Bucks a day for by with the phone for the first one, hundred days she had thousand via box. Now they partner with somebody for that end the tablet, and they get that, oem the original equipment manufacturer to co branded as a fortnight one and it has one or two buttons that make playing the game. Much better. Would that not be the come over the top moment for a seventeen billion dollar company like epic that could crack the back of apple answer that question we get back if this break. Hey everybody. It's small business month at Dell and this means you can save up to fifty percent off on all dell products checkout launched dot co slash style that's domain in launch L. A. U. N. C.. H. Dot Co Slash. Dow and you'RE GONNA get an extra five percent off. It's almost over it's going to end on August thirtieth. So that fifty percent off right now whether you want to get. 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No you can spread that out over time and they give you free it consulting and rewards including up to six percent cash back. Once again, it's small business month at Dell and you to get fifty percents off all dell products. The offer ends August thirtieth. So please hurry up checkout launch dot co slash Dell to get that extra five percent. Off All existing offers and to get more information about the Dow. For entrepreneurs. program. For making great world class products and for supporting founders who listen to this week in startups. All Right Ben Gilbert and David. Rosenthal. Are here follow Ben Gilbert G. got the Bart on the twitter and Dave it is What do you DJ J. R S and t? I dropping fat beats Dave is that what I? In my radio Voice of us. All. Right. So before we were commercial break, I had this interesting idea that coming up with A. Fortnight is so powerful that if they came out with a tablet, it would be a bestseller especially if it had built a number of Bucks v box and it may be had some buttons or you know hardware that was just a little bit more specific to like, let's say. The back of it had an led reading that show which of your friends were online. You know some people putting those like little quick displays on the back of phones. Abacha's a quick display on the back that showed your friends who are online at the time or something, and you wouldn't replace your phone with this is nothing you pull out of your backpack and you can play with. What do we think of this idea of them competing and or I should say helping an android manufacturer take market share from apple they're not going to beat apple, but they're gonna just stick it to. No No. Why isn't you're the consummate founder optimist I think you are dramatically underestimating the lock in effects that apple has go system. SRI. We'll take the. There are a few people out there much like there were a few people out there that went and bought the facebook phone the these are the true believers in fort night who don't care at all about literally any other feature on their iphone it it's an incredibly rare thing and a much smaller crowd and I think. You know a lot of other allegory here is in the podcasting inconsistent where you see the luminaries of the world say you know what? Who? Exactly people love this show so much that they're gonNA change their existing behavior to go and get this content on a different platform and people just don't do that. It is incredibly much rarer totally and I think there exist apps that could do this, and another one is a different ten cent property, which is we chat. So I mean you can imagine in China if we chat decided to pull off the IPHONE, you'd have a hundreds of millions of people that would leave the apple ecosystem and go and buy whatever phone had we chat So there there are nuclear options. I. Don't think fortnight is one of them but we but you do think. We chat coming out with the we chat phone in partnership with an OEM could have legs so they're Xiaomi I mean yeah. Okay. All right. I like. All right. So I think we're spit balling here David on this what do you think of the this concept here? That's the other dimension of all this that. I don't think people understand as much you epic and tencent are major allies here and ten is so important lake. Literally, what Ben Said is is is so true like if iphones in China, did not have we chat on it. Apple's market share would go to zero apple gets fifteen to twenty percent of their entire revenue across the entire company from China like that is the ultimate hammer at play here and I think that's why didn't there are many reasons why this is a big problem for apple starting with it's just like they've lost faith a lot of developers but that's like there's way more at stake here. Another idea for apple. I want to run a by you too, and I want you to give it your consideration. And I have great respect for the people that apple I'll say that and I think that there is a. there is a value to them curing the store and I think there is a value to them having a closed safe ecosystem. Especially, if you have kids, you can kind of feel better about them being on an iphone than an android phone. And you can feel better about what's in the APP store in I, think there is something to that that consumers want and they should be able to provide whatever product they want. I'm thinking because it did feel unfair that's subscriptions would be thirty percent year one and thirty percent your too. So they conceded thirty percent year one for your subscription fifteen percent for your to. have. Another idea. What if they said we're GONNA take thirty percent. And then when you hit this threshold, it goes down just like threshold Michael up for a venture capitalist who hit certain Mark You know you returned three times the money. From twenty percent, carry the thirty. Of Tiered Carey, which is a discount like listen. If you break, it's thirty percent on the first you know. Ten million it's twenty five percent of the next ten, million twenty percent of the next ten, million and anything over fifty is fifteen percent anything over one hundred, ten percent. They can make a very simple stage thing which would be like what a supermarket does. If you move a lot of products in a supermarket you, you know you, you get a different price that if you don't move a lot right and there could be some easy concession here for apple but now I feel like. It's such a corner that they have to go to the mat and that's a that's a bit of a problem for everybody involved. Is there an exit Ramp David? I'm doing this one which is like a tiered structure is there a tiered structure exit ramp to end this madness or do you have one? Well, actually exit ramp I think the I think it's almost zero possibility that apple will do this. But I think actually epoch provides a really good example of a tiered structure that works here, which is for the licensing for the unreal engine. It's five percent of the revenue of your game or experience. which is way way less than apple's thirty percent. Arguably for peace. That's just as if not more important. But I think they announced this last year, the wave fees on the first million dollars of your revenue. Let a thousand flowers bloom like if you're never gonNA get that big will epochs never gonNa make that much money from you anyway but there's no incentive not to use it like Tractor with generosity, for experimental. I love it. I. Love that idea now. You just popped another idea into my, which is well, if unreal made a device that was for gaming that happened to have phone service on it, and it had five percent that actually could make an impact with putting the fortnight phone or the fortnight tablet aside. An unreal tablet and unreal phone with only five percent, and then make all other apps available on the phone available for five percent that could be a game challenge at the bell. Road blocks pudgy mind cried percent across the board. Yes five percent across the board with half or more of those savings passed onto consumers that's going to be really compelling. This would fall in line with the epic playbook as well because they started as a gay manufacturer and then they moved to the layer of making the game engine and then they've sense launch the epic game store, and then they launched the epic online services. So they're basically launching these sort of different components of the value chain and what they expect the developers to do, and the consumers to do is adopt them piecemeal. Hey, we're not going to bundle we're. Not GonNa take sort of the surplus economics we deserve or could take for our monopolistic behavior of bundling these things altogether, and then forcing you to use the option that's bundled in I could actually even though they're not a hardware company, I can actually see them being like and another modular way that you can experience our experiences or anyone else's experience is through the epic hardware I. Jason. I. Don't think it's that crazy. Okay. So the mistake I made in my first iteration was limited fortnight, but to make it the on real phone and the epic unreal tablet and here's the kicker. Ben. David what if for but one dollar? All of the game manufacturers could autism calculus is content no, no, that's available for free for all time. And I I was a separate subject but I do have. I do believe the only way to make paid content work is to have fifty percent or greater of your content behind a paywall, which is what you're doing you. It's like one for one or the red scare podcast one for one or one hundred percent, which is what for Sam Harris's doing I think thirty percent you listen to the first thirty minutes the other sixty minutes it has to be the majority in order for Torque any level. But what I'm thinking here is what if they said to all of their All the Games. May All the APPS for one dollar? You can put yourself on the phone. And then we could have up to two hundred APPS preloaded. We will then take two hundred dollars off the cost of the phone. And you get to permanently be on the phone that. That APP. CanNot. Be Deleted. Oem Model. Of Flip phones I sure. Hope we don't get back to that. Well, no, but it doesn't mean it's on the front screen. They're all be like in the. Being a featured listing on any other zillow or Redfin, or Yelp you basically a feature listing. So you put whatever you want and your first couple of screens, but the third and fourth screen. If you choose to instead of paying four six hundred dollars for this phone, you can pay four hundred and it comes with two hundred APPs. He's when you buy a kindle, you can buy the kindle with special offers and you get it for twenty percents. Yes I think this could actually work so now I want to flip the conversation to get back to China. And the fact that ten. Sad just. Sort of dabbled in their their involvement in so many companies and when we get back. As predicted. High predicted. Working for the Communists. Not a great idea for any. American And Literally a couple of months. After I said, Kevin Mayor has lost his mind and is a traitor to America for going to work for this Chinese company he has resigned. But he may not have resigned because of his realization that working for communists isn't the best look he may have resigned because he was going to be excluded from the discussions about the acquisition that is inevitably I believe going to occur when we get back. We're going to get both Bannon David's opinion on the crazy hot potato that is tiktok on this reading Sir. You love sleek modern furniture I do. My whole house is filled with at my office. Can I was always looking for this beautiful a table and chairs for my dining room and living room my office, the outdoor stuff and I was amazed that when I looked at this one website, their prices were great. So I ordered some products and turned out the build quality was phenomenal. and. 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But I, hope you all vote and I hope you vote up and down for people who are qualified to deal with crises and we're GONNA leave it at that and then. to our black brothers and sisters who are suffering under unfair policing. Again, this is not what this podcast is about but I feel obligated to say it's just devastating to see what's happened in we stand with you and. I am putting a lot of thought and time and effort into finding more black women, Black Man and and people of color to invest money in and I'm very proud to say that our team especially, Jackie on my team has a program Co. founder dot university that we taped the. We did this week for ten hours and we had two hundred, sixty black and brown founders who female founders LBJ T Q. and. We found three or four We always find three or four great investments, and I am working my ass off to work with my team to make this a top priority to bring notch you know I can't affect policing. I know that I mean I can vote but I'm not going to be able to to change these these these murders that are happening on the street. But the thing that's in my wheelhouse is investing in founders of color. If you're a founder of color if you're a woman and you want to spend time with me and my team, we are available to you whether you've just got an idea we've got a prototype. We're going to do it and we're going to do it for free and we're GONNA. Give you every piece of advice and support we can. That is our promise to you and we do it through something called Founder Dot University, which were hosting six times a year for women of Color Lat next I think is the preferred term now lgbtq anybody who's underestimated underrepresented we want to work with you and I put that out there and my good friend. arlan. Hamilton in front of the pod has started her own backstage syndicate I implore you if you're a limited partner in what I do that you go sign up for. What she's doing and I've been mentoring her on how to run a syndicate. She's done to deals already both oversubscribed and I think she's a great human being and I think she's a force of nature and yet may be swings a couple of elbows here or there, but I swing twice as many and I get half the criticism. So go support her as well. If you are an accredited investor and we need to change the situation because it's goddamn unacceptable GonNa, leave it at that hour of David Ben I WanNa put you on the spot man but I don't know what how you're dealing with but I really am having. You know a very hard time getting to sleep at night and I consider myself. One of those people who never could just power through anything. But I it's very hard for me to deal with what I'm seeing. You know it's just it's heartbreaking. I mean. Look, David Nye you're preaching to the choir here I. Think one thing that or at least I'll speak for myself in a in a way. Grateful for is having our eyes open to the way in which our country in our whole system has been broken for a very long time Awful that. The way that it's coming to light but. As hard as it is to watch, his heart is to talk about i. mean these are these are murders I am grateful that. The expense. Is the word it's it is the word you know what three of us were in any of those situations we would not have been murdered and that's that's basically all you need to know that's the beginning and end of the discussion. So anybody who's saying, you shouldn't resist arrest I would invite you to imagine that your neck was knelt on for nine minutes and you died or your black man and you saw. That and then think about well presented. If you'd think that getting handcuffed is going to result in you being suffocated to death i. mean that's the that's the level of insanity this has come to and I'm I'm from a family of police officers and firefighters right and I know the overwhelming majority of people have good intent and I know it's an incredibly hard job but we as society have to come up with creative solutions. and we have to this has to end and we need to have leadership that is willing to discuss this and take measures and I'm while comal Harris I and and I know that she's just like the imperfect candidate and binds imperfect candidate My wish Bloomberg had run that would have been my preference, Kluber Kamala. Bloomberg Hillary whoever but things need to change stop political show but. We need to have qualified people in office period, which it shouldn't be political to say that we shouldn't murder people in the streets so I you know what I thank you for saying that because I do think that you know we live in this crazy bubble on twitter were you and I and we all hang out and it feels like if you say my God, this is a murder and people are like, oh no, here's a million reasons why that murder could occur. You know it's just so it's a murder it's murder murder murder when somebody is unnecessarily. When? There are other options. You take the other options tackling person when they say they can't breathe. Getting the hell off their neck with your knee like. We we need it. There's a there's a training issue here police in this country are trained for six months on average I. Understand like if people are going to be giving guns and they're going to be asked to get into the most crazy situations out there, let's increase your salary fifty percent. Let's. Move the training from six months to. Four years and maybe they don't have a gun for the first two years maybe they're. Peace officers for two years and then they become police officers if they can show a track record of learning how to use a gun in a in a proper situation and I did look at lethal weapons and those things and safety camps as a category for venture investing because I said, you know, maybe there's a way. And I'm sure somebody will clip this and be like, Oh, here's a wide venture capitalist singing and solve with an investment. But the truth is there are ways and there are devices and there are things out there we could create that could make more nonlethal interactions is there's a there's training and there's equipment and there's procedures and all of those can play a part and we need to work on it. And they the thing that just sucks is like all that is true. But like this, it's the whole. The whole thing is too. So broken everything is broken like this happened again in Wisconsin how the how the hell did this happen again like it that's the T- that's such an important point because. It must be in the minds of every police officer. What happened with George Floyd what happened Brianna Taylor and now what happened? It's in their mind they must have this. They must be having a morning briefing and memos and retraining and discussions. So for this to happen again. So brazenly where you shoot somebody in the back seven times I, understand he's resisting I understand he might be reaching for something tackle the person shut the door of the car do something other than shoot somebody in the back seven times its it unnecessary use of force. God It's just infuriating I'm sorry. For getting emotional about it. It's very hard to shift gears and very hard for me to sometimes to host his podcast I'll be honest with people. It's hard to talk about business when you see Rome is burning. But. Carry on. We must and I think actually talking about Tiktok and talking about the Chinese Communist Party what's going on there is also a human rights issue we we don't have human rights fixed in this country and China. Is Involved in in a lot of people in our industry. Don't like to talk about this genocide right now. The, the we are being round up, you've seen the videos I think we really start to need to think about the relationship of these companies to the United. States. Through the lens of Human Rights, what's happened in Hong, Kong etc and Tiktok. Is the first. Tip of the spear right after while way, we'd guess in terms of this discussion everybody knows Kevin Mayor. That were if you don't was Disney's had a streaming any ran Disney plus which is the most successful thing at Disney Since I think marvel I think it will ultimately have five hundred million paid subscribers and will be the driving force of that company legendary CEO. Bob Iger who wrote the book we talked about right of a lifetime is a lifelong corporate executive. Let's face it. He's not a founder types of corporate executive and in February There were two finalists for the job and the head of Parks Baba check have him pronouncing correct got the job and had a streaming Kevin Mayor didn't I think that's a mistake without knowing either of them. Personally. You will fight you on Matt. Let's. Let's take that off the top who are these two individuals and why did. Get the job over mayor yet David Kick it to you for for 'cause you know the strap planning story better than I do. Yes. So Kevin was put in charge of Disney plus and streaming because he wanted operating experience and and as part of his developments as as an executive within Disney accounting a business line. But for many years, he was running the Strat Strategy and Planning Group, which is legendary at Disney and so important to the company I mean along with Bob Eiger the strap plan group, and Kevin did those the marvel acquisition, the Pixar acquisition, the Lucasfilm acquisition, and had to read you Strap Planning Lancashire Strap planning used to screw up every deal. Well. That was under the OVID. Eisner. Yep. Yeah they were great for a while and then the Eisner later years not so great basically said in the book was every time they brought a deal there had died. and. There was no boldness in strapped planning before. Either redid it and took it from I. Don't know if it was hundreds of people down to like forty or something. Yup Yup totally reminding and Kevin was a big part of that. But I think it's totally unfair to call Agra hired gun executive. I mean, I, think he is lobster I did he ever start a company? Nobody, he worked for fifty years in the same or. To, see, no, no, no, no listen. There's a difference between a founder and somebody who runs organizations I'm not saying one is better than the other, but it is two different career pets clearly. I think. Yes. But in this case, really as close as you could ever come to having something like a founder mindset and DNA in a hundred year old company like Disney okay. Fair enough I'll give that he's been his whole career except for one year one year out of college, and then he spent the rest of his whole career starting literally at the bottom and rising up to the CEO Tillerson. Walt Disney what became the Walt Disney Organization it's just amazing. So I want to take it on why shape it was the right CEO. So I had this like for anyone who read the book or? You know listen to I'm sure Jason talked about Ross talk about this. I had this sort of three point plan where he wanted to and of course it's a three-point plan but he c comes in a CEO and he says it's about digital distribution it's about international and it's about owning first party just like unbelievable Ip. Star. Wars Marvel Pixar so. We have to go international and what was the other one international own ID direct digital distribution and direct to consumer which they never had. It was always obscure fide espn the customer of ESPN was a cable channel not a sports fan got it Yep and I think technically, it may have been more like we have to use technology as our future. It may have been a little bit broader than that but basically saying Disney started because of technological breakthroughs in how to do animation and we need to use technology to create innovation in the same way that was a founding principle this company anyway eiger comes in he. Completely. Changes the strategy of the company and Reorganizes Everything Does the Fox acquisition in addition to those three big properties, Marvel Pixar Lucasfilm, and like sets the direction the company for the next twenty years. So he was He was the guy taken the boggled thing and shaking it, and then sort of like letting everything settle out and what you WanNa do after that is harvest the returns from that strategy. You WanNa. person like Bob shape that's GonNa come in and sort of just execute a coo type a hammer who is not gonna come in with a brand new vision again and shake everything up again. So thank you need a Tim Cook Post Steve Jobs Steve Jobs after jobs absolutely. Direction that's that's that's so important. Eiger was both of those in one. It's not like he came in from the outside shook everything up. He had spent thirty years amy. City, he was the CEO and then he was like, Nope, what got me here isn't going to get Disney there. We're GONNA shake everything up and I've got the credit to do that because I actually did this and the crazy part of that story I don't know if this resonated with you was that. The person who gave her the job. Was Michael. Eisner and Michael Eisner was the one who got Disney to a new height. and Michael Eisner was the one who said do not under any circumstance by Pixar or go down this path. That is the great blindspot of blind spots. Is it not when you think about being a great entrepreneur, the innovators dilemma the ability and you said it what got you here will not get you there. There's a great book by the title Have you read it but we'll get what got you here. We'll get to there put it on your list. Great. Basically, the the concept of the Book and David, you said it without even knowing that there is a book written on it. Is. What high performance do typically as they put the weight of the project team the problem on their back, and they will their team to win. And sometimes that works. And then sometimes you have to make the people around you better. In other words, your individual achievements in your individual ability is not enough to get to the next level I e Michael Jordan. He needed to make pippen great player. He needed to make Steve Kerr great player. He needed to make Rodman a great player and you saw that in that incredible documentary hush was like you see Lebron with Dudayev becoming an assist machine now. Yeah I mean listen I mean Jr Smith is like the ultimate person to lose a game for you like an e every time Jared Smith makes a mistake Lebron is like it's a little brother. I know you're an idiot I. Know you do stupid stuff all the time. We're going to just keep you on the team because we know you can hit four three pointers in a row and you have no fear even though you're untying people shoelaces on the court. For no reason, other than your board. I mean he was he was one of the greatest knicks ever. Because just we were so bad and he was just so dumb. Literally the only NBA player ever to block me was Jerry Smith because I tweeted congratulations to the cavs on losing another championship because of Charts Smith. Be. blocked. So entertaining. So. So entertaining, we're worry what were you talking about Oh? Yes. All right. So you telling us that that. Okay. Well, let's talk about vehemently disagreeing that Agar was a corporate guy. So but so you're saying if I if I'm reading you correct band, you're saying if you put Cavite in, he would have shaken the bog the boggle, and then you gotta do all the pieces again when really what Disney needs to do right now is just solely focus on making Disney plus have two hundred have more subscribers than net Netflix's and the job is done. Disney plus executing on making sure you continue to build great franchises like those three and then of course, growing internationally, which is what? Fox. Is All about. But yeah, like continue Bazeley executing those three plays just execute. You don't need another idea because you know company can execute seven things at once and they will but probably not for five or ten years right you want to add something every couple years, air pods the watch you can't add the watch and air pods and the glasses in the same year, you need a certain number of cycles to. Focus right when the other dimension is didn't actually go anywhere like the only reason the CEO succession happened is one or the other of Kevin or Bob. Forced the issue clearly like I was planning to retire. Well, he's also old now. So like I mean I guess when you're Bob Eiger, seventy-nine somebody look it up. Neck producers put in the notes. But. He had a plan in place that he wrote about in the Book of Yes twenty twenty two. Let me ask you guys a question because we're all we're all on the younger side here I'm forty nine I. Think you guys are like twenty, nine and thirty, four, zero. Can you imagine being Bob Eiger and Bob Eiger is sixty nine years old. And not doing it for another five years I mean, how does Bob Eiger not keep going? It's so. Amazing or or do you think he just wants to be president I think he wants. To Be President. I mean I think That would be more challenging. Yeah better than what's better job give me the better job than being the head of Disney. At the head of Disney last year. Okay fine. Okay. Give me but seriously, is it being the head of Tesla? No that's going to be hard is being the head of Microsoft or facebook or Apple Know What what's better job right now? President. That's the only thing I could think of to check a check box for guy at eggers level. I think you have a better job? I think we all have better jobs than anybody else. It depends what you want. Yeah. Talking about like you know what? We know the type of how we're talking about an archetype that. Wants to do wants to reach the pinnacle of business and personal achievement. He's not going to be the MVP of any sports league. It's too late for that. It's not gonNA be the head of the Rolling Front. Man for the rolling stones. What's left proposes yet? So it's left for Oprah him. Well I. Think it just depends how much you love what you do like. Buffett, and Munger. Are there like they don't want to be. There eleven what they do. Yes. That's a really interesting one. Their unique. The mental maze that I was going through is, what is a because we're talking about achieving? Some combination of money fame and power here. So we're not optimizing for quality of life greatness sure and so I. Was navigating through what is an organization that actually where it's it's sky high right now in terms of revenue restock price are public sentiment over the that doesn't have all the downsides that a lot of the big tech companies have coming under fire right now sure and like Davis at Berkshire Hathaway's a very interesting one. I mean, I think they have a they're very good at what they do. They have product market fit and they've had the the compounding of the last sixty years. That they're now sitting on top of its, what is the succession plan there Lieutenant Yeah it's Take homes and Jane yet. Fascinating I wonder if they changed the strategy, let me talk about what got you here does get your there So let's has the best to get free money from. Insurance float. Is Amazing when you think about it, everybody wants to be in the insurance business. I can't think of a worse like most boring wake up every day. So Kevin Quits. He resigns what is our thinking on why he resigned because it's unspecified I believe unless something broke when we're taping this, it's unspecified why he leave why did he leave which which are, which are best guests didn't he say or maybe it was just reported that he got left out of the negotiations like thing was. The rumor he was. Being left out of it but I don't know that he has a I don't believe there's a form state from him saying that but that seems to be the case in which case. That would confirm that he's just a hired gun. He's just a face of the brand if you can't be in the discussions than you are not important your expendable, he was made to feel expendable again. Yeah I mean I also think he realized that part of his job over the next however many months or years was going to be testifying and that sounds awful. If you WANNA break the spirit of any CEO or any leader. Depose, them. You guys ever been to. No hope never got. One time for cybersurfer magazine. I got a trademark dispute with the publisher I created Cybersurfer I didn't have deal. He thought it was worked for higher I brought the name and trademark the name should be in federal court when I was twenty three years old and I got deposed Fan Yeah you ever twenty-three-year-old post when you have four thousand dollars in your bank account. That's Kinda Fun shoutout star log. Brutal it's it's it's being posed as one of. The. Most painful arduous things because basically a group of lawyer sit there. And ask you mundane question over and over again, and then your lawyers object, but there's no judge. So they just with each other. And the job is to try to tilt the person. and. So basically, our mediator who decides at the end, that's the thing you can basically say my, we're not going to answer that and the person that you have to answer it in the words I'm not GonNa answer it, and then they like okay let's move on because then you have to go to court to say they wouldn't answer these questions and then they have to mitigate if they are in fact, have to answer it. So it's it's almost like it's a good faith like I'm going to answer questions you're under oath kind of situation we have it here on tape. Jan Levinson Gould situation that were like that from the office. That's how I should think about this. Yeah. I it's. It's a very surreal experience because you feel like you're in court but you're not. You're in like an office and everybody's just sitting around some like. Ninety Dollars Square foot office space with some view of some city, and there's eight lawyers in the room to transcribers video camera backdrop, and if you watch any of the videos and it's it's it's it's so surreal experience. So he didn't want to get dragged into that. I agree which is by the way. The reason why Sergei Larry Puts. Some DR in charge is because they get dragged into so much stuff they just wanted to say, well, we were just on the board. Right the CEO goes you notice that. You notice who wasn't in the firing line. No Larionov. Sergei ones. They are they're they're they're not smart. They're brilliant. So what a let's go through this step by step. And I'll I'll e Allah treat you guys like witnesses. So number one. Ben Should. Yes or no answer should tick tock be banned in the United States. That and I'll remind you you're under oath. I think that. TIKTOK should not be banned in the United States. Why should take nar? TIKTOK. Which is owned by a company in a communist country not be banned United States. I think it is harmful to the American consumer and it is a shame that we can't get along. To basically enable its value destructive and not only value destructive to corporations but value destructive to people's lives. Oh. MSG another follow up question there Mr Gilbert does tiktok use the phone the phones camera and the phones microphone. Yes. It does. Does it use a GPS location? Yes it does. And does the Chinese Communist Party have access to? Other. Companies Data in China. Yes or no? At seems likely I don't know. Did Yahoo have to give the names of dissidents over to the Chinese Communist Party when they were running mail servers and their services in China yes or no I have no idea but I would ask based on your question that yes, the answer is, yes L. Submit this document. So knowing what you now know Ben that Yahoo did give over the names of dissidents and email addresses. Do you to the Chinese Communist Party and they can well any Chinese company to do that at any time and they have a history of doing that. Do you now feel comfortable with seventy million Americans having their microphones locations? What's in their cut and paste clipboard? Three every three seconds every three seconds and there are microphones you feel comfortable with the Chinese Communist Party having access to seventy million Americans microphones cameras. Cut and paste clipboard and their GPS location Ben yes or no. So now you're asking me a very interesting question, which is sort of like thinking as a Patriot on behalf of America. Yes. The right thing for China to have this, and if that's the discussion we're having, it needs to go a whole lot deeper than Tiktok because I don't think it's just Tiktok I think there's tons of apps that have Chinese developers or data on Chinese servers. Well, we're talking about Tiktok right now let's ask should be a part of the conversation here. Great I. Do think I want to talk about this like I think philosophically we all screwed up by saying how awesome it is that China will take all of our Internet in but will sort of selectively decide what they let in and yet we are happy to take whatever stuff they put out on the Internet should. Be Allowed in China. Yes or no Mr Remind you you're under oath. Avenue. Now my acting. Here. As an American. Yes. Like if I'm acting on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party I I, don't know. Is the Chinese Communist Party involved in the rounding up of millions of leaguers as you see in these photos. So you mentioned this this sounds I actually don't know much about this. It is a pretty frigging smart guy and you are not convinced of what I believe should be obvious to anybody, which is any data that Tiktok has the Chinese Communist. Party, has already has probably probably probably. Okay. So now if that is not terrorizing to you as an American than I think you need to pause for a second and say these are these. Act Good actors or bad actors, good actors or State Actors Communists. Did they did they not? Just removed. From Hong Kong, they could be capitalist, but they can also be communist at the same time, his Hong Kong and Independent. Region anymore and can people vote there So, this is where I'm like I actually don't know. Enough on my Gio Paul Ryan and so this is the problem I think people of your generation don't understand what communist do with information data. What they do is they round up their opponents and they torture them. and. They find people and that is the crux of the issue here. David. I'M NOT GONNA put into the same grilling. But what are your general thoughts after you share? Here. By, the way this had been telling the reds from the New York Times, she would have been like you're harassing me by asking me questions I I. I love Taylor like I know you're in like a thing with her at Taylor is great. I think she is great at reporting on memes and I think there is a place in the world for memes and reporting on memes and style I think that her position on the Chinese Communist Party and Tiktok is. Literally idiotic and I think our position that people who wanna go to work. Are Stupid. In a pandemic is very privileged thing to say for somebody who makes one hundred thousand dollars a year. Writing behind a keyboard. About. MEMES. Stop Look. Into this argument but he deleted the tweet I, think Taylor greed. I think she's a wonderful person I think she's one of the most talented reporters of her generation and I don't like I'm on Carnival on this show when you want to sort of end the discussion on. And negative attack on her personally like it just doesn't notice it's completely professional. It's completely professional I'm only comment I'm sure she's a wonderful human being I'm only referring to complete in sensitivity of a person who makes one hundred thousand dollars a year writing that other people who are essential workers you have to go to work debate for their kids are stupid which is what she tweeted. That was the whole beef started is I said this is stupid tweet like if people have to pay for their family and their essential work and they go to work, that's not being stupid. That's that's essential. That's how the whole beef started by the way. And the fact that she wrote that like is like the super important thing to a generation and it's GONNA cost. And that should exist but anyway. Going on tip talk tiktok Husky except we're not going to agree on the madness of New York, check those yeah Jason Yes, all your points on that. But. TIKTOK zone by by dance by dance is a Chinese company correct However, seventy percent of the outside shareholders in by dance our US entity is how does that complicate things? Tremendously, Accounting Sequoia China as US entity David. Yes. That's a that's an interesting question because if who knows who the LP's in that fund our? There's no transparency I believe by there is no transparency, but my understanding is by and large. Similar L. P. Base. So what do you think David is the best thing to do if the if the United States is not allowed to operate and there's no reciprocity in social networks then what is the right thing to do? In this situation, is it for them to divest? Well. I don't WanNa see what think is right or not because a I don't know. But I, I can say. On sharded, it's uncharted territory for certain. Territory. Yes. Here here's what I think is likely to happen and probably the best outcome. I think a terrible outcome that is definitely not going to happen because all the economic incentives on all sides against his tiktok shuts down. Very. Very Unlikely to happen that zero percent possibility literally. Yeah. I do agree with you. But what is likely to happen and what I hope happens because this will be for the best is that Tiktok ends up when all is said and done as an independent third party entity with the U. S. Canada Baby Europe you know Western operations being its own independent entity with its own data on its own servers not in China. I think that's probably the likely to happen that seems like the overwhelming majority likely you agree and I think the to put to get there is. All this new cycle right now is about a sale of tiktok Microsoft Walmart, Oracle somebody's GonNa to by Lov. Love Walmart being, let's let's let's Walmart being less. W. There's no way that that's the end game though that's just like the necessary required step to have a company come in with the infrastructure data infrastructure and server infrastructure and cloud infrastructure to offload all of this data. Then, once the dust settles Tiktok, it Spun Beck out it's an independent entity. There's so much investor motivation for that to happen, I, mean Sequoia General Atlantic ar the big American shareholders invite Dansk. They wanted this to be the first step. It's not going to be possible, but it is going to be the second step. And the first step is going to be. These acquisition and acquisition. So there will be some sort of acquisition that makes us an independent company eventually. So a two five part of Microsoft are part of Oracle but it's more like they're giving it a home giving Har- home to watch will wind up being valued at. The seven hundred million users seventy two blog post on this. Okay. Great. And we're only I'm only like saying ou because we believe ever written like one blog but the. Would we come up with David thirty billion? I think we said we think we said about thirty billion. Okay. So this seven, hundred, million users. Is that right? That was the global well that's durable. SO USURP OUT China like you're talking about. WH- depending on which geographies are included in this one, hundred million in the US. Let's call it another one to two hundred million. Okay. So let's say two fifty. Pick a number to fifty. Times a hundred dollars a user it's twenty, five, billion. I would say that twenty-five. The high end of normal because the motivation we already know that something like facebook. In the developed world I think is the proper word Tanaka me canceled is. I Know Third World will get you canceled. So that's the. World Somebody Tommy. FACEBOOK's current revenue average revenue who is in the United States seventy dollars abuser USO globally. It's seven dollars and fifty cents. facebook I believe does five x that thirty five per user. Globally at the US is the number that matters us in Europe because the US and the global number is like in some countries, two dollars or three dollars per user per year and I'm sorry I I messed that up. So seven dollars and fifty cents is youtube 's global are Pu but the and this is how we valued at. We basically said, well, if we knew youtube us are pu how would we value youtube users because five times tiktok user? Exactly I would go five I would go somewhere between five and ten. So between five and ten, seven times seven, forty nine let's call it fifty bucks or per user. That means over five years you make two hundred, fifty dollars per user. If, you have two hundred and fifty users trying to do some discounting in your head on that those future cash or something like that. Thirty billion seems really fair. Actually I think thirty million would be a fair for price for both parties. Unstudied. Forget revenue in the future. What's to say fifty dollars per user now like at some point in time are they making money now? Yard growing very quickly. Hundreds of millions of dollars just in the US. Yeah. So you get just one hundred x that too I mean that's the other. One Hundred X. Easy fifty bucks a year. That's easy. So Fifty Bucks Times one, hundred, million So billion five billion and to slap a tax revenue multiple seems. Everybody. Else's trading thirty, billion, thirty, forty, fifty, billion, and we could do that with the back doesn't Back, the hell out of that, do you want to get into heaven? Back so it's a nice segue. Thank you for for keeping me on track here. Well from Pitch Books v US Evaluation Report Q. Two, twenty, twenty and pitchbook. Now is an official partner of this week in startups. Thanks for doing. That is a non cash. They're not sponsoring it. We just decided they would give us data. Seattle Organization Yeah actually the person John Gabbert, who started it worked at venture source, which bought venture report, which was one of my publications in other downs. Jared history. Yeah. Very short history John was a really smart cat I met him literally in San. Francisco. And I got fired two weeks after they made the acquisition. By the way these tangent. But these data businesses, great businesses there's a company called market that merged with I, pro- and IHS publicly traded. If you if you may the problem with the data businesses, they take very quickly get to twenty or thirty or forty million dollars in business, and then somebody makes them cheaper version of it, and there's a limited supply people and they could be highly profitable very hard to get them to a billion dollars in revenue. You should John Gabbert about that because Very, well, no. What do I know I sat now sixty seventy. I think they do very very. That's why what these what Morningstar which bud I think. Morningstar by pitchbook and then IHS market. Would you do? Is You just you just aggregate all these businesses because you need them in everything? Dow Jones had group that had private equity venture source venture wire venture, and they just all the brands and consolidate them had one price and they started making them piecemeal and then they went back to single pricing for it. So I wanNA talk about the accreditation laws I want to talk about and I just WanNa give everybody just a little feedback on where rat verbatim from pitch books US visa evaluation report for two two of twenty twenty. while macro economic headwinds and the covid nineteen pandemic have battered the public markets Angel and seed stage valuations have been largely insulated from volatility given how upstream in the ventral life cycle these deals typically are this. Of course, only includes Angel and seed stage deals completed during this period of uncertainty while Angel Valuations have have held steady the median equity stake acquired for Angel Financing in the first half of twenty twenty with seven point seven percent. That that would be I think corrected my experience with people selling about ten percent and has been decreasing since its peak in of twenty one percent in two thousand thirteen indicate starts abilities to command similar evaluations while giving up less equity and ownership in the company. While check sizes for siege companies tend to be considerably larger than Angel deals contributing to muted seed stage deal activity in each one investors are still acquiring a meeting of twenty five percent equity stake as many scene. Focused firms continued to turn their attention to existing portfolio companies, est this vibes with me had his vibe with you been. Sounds, right. Sounds about right. Are you doing more or less deals during the pandemic or the same? The same How about you David? Same. My name is do one angel investment or company a quarter. I am dealing that pace I am doing double. Dwelt, you're you're a special man no I am not special I. Just I think that right now because the acceler that there's a very specific, I didn't think accelerators would be possible remote. And I think I was right. Nobody wanted to come into an accelerator remote when? You could go to one in person. They thought it was stupid. Then we moved ourselves to remote and I, had a big fight with members of my team who are no longer here and literally two members of Watch team would likely have been here. Had I acquiesced to their request of work from home and doing remote but I didn't because I said that stupid like what founder is going to? Go to a remote accelerators so dumb like the whole point is to meet people. Anyway the pandemic forced one, hundred percent of people do remote. So I just double the number of companies we're investing in because half of the angel investors and venture funds I know very quietly told me that they are I would say one, they're they're doing no deals. Until two, thousand, twenty, one, they're just gonNA take the time off work with their existing portfolio and then the other two they're inside they're you know either GonNa do only their own companies and focus on their winners and then one third said they're going to do deals which meant okay. Now's is entirely in the pandemic or you still was May and June and July. So that's been the last three months. I've been hearing a similar thing, which is if we have a winner in our portfolio, we're gonNA give them the money because there is a theory. Going around amongst that group of of scaredy cats. the scaredy cats think. That there is going to be a massive crises and that this is going to go on through twenty twenty one. There will not be a vaccine until twenty, twenty two and that they'll be a prolonged recession and that. Companies are going to run out of money not this year they're gonNA run out of money in q one, q two and q three of next year. Therefore, they should reserve they're dry powder for that window. That's the scaredy pants think. I disagree I think now's the time to double down on businesses that are to profitability. which there are many and founders who are mature enough to say if this does extend itself like let's say God forbid the virus. Cova morphed and became more deadly or something, and the viruses, and the vaccine's don't work like that is potential scenario I'm Tara it's a hard one to think about obviously, they would know how to shift gears and there would be willing to cut their staff size by two thirds to survive, and so I just had that conversation frankly with each one. Therefore, when we do Ramon accelerators, we don't need to have a location, which means we can do three times as many because the team doesn't need to go anywhere. and twice as many investors are showing up and how do you maintain the quality bar when you're quantity on accelerator companies? That is a very good question it turns out the quality. The number of quality applicants has gone up roughly three to four X. so we're getting the same number of applicants but people who wouldn't previously have considered an accelerator are now considering them because the quick hundred k. and when we decide we fund, we ship the money immediately like if we say, we're doing this deal like I found. DEAL REMOTE OUR DOT COM to pretty cool piece of software that you may have seen playing with on twitter yesterday where you can set up a room where you do three minute or five minutes, ten minute calls and people just queue up and you can just zip through them and they can sign up an email and when you say I've got an hour like and you can embed it. So let's say you were real estate broker. You could say I have office hours between three and five Monday Tuesday Wednesday. And then they're on your website, they click it and all of a sudden they're connected. It's almost. Like a real office, but the countdown clock ticks. So I tell founders, you have three minutes we have five minutes and I have a button and click that says add five minutes. And then you can edge stripe to it right and you could say I'm charging for this I. Obviously, I'm not charging but I could charge Sam I'll give you ten minutes hitting the button charging their credit card. Well, it's. It's. It's sort of like that you know I, but he's really stage David a number of things remote. Our DOT COM is just fantastic and I bring that up as an example of. I was like you know what? This this is a founder. WHO's awesome. He's knocked. Clear market is is a Japanese founder who's a solo founder? He just added a second person like he he's just amazing but there's nowhere for him to go because he can't take twenty angel meetings because nobody's taking meetings already be very it'd be very hard to get those meetings and so that that's my theory is there's more. That's exactly the thing that I think all scaredy cats miss that I miss at the beginning of this. So many people this a sleek people just gonNA DA- PT Wake like all the covert is GonNa do is it's is it's accelerating change that was going to happen anyway I mean there's lots of terrible things that are happening I don't want to discount that but in terms of venture investing landscape. Either lots of new companies like remote our dot. com, which is amazing. Are Going to get founded to serve. Do this, I'll get you. Get. US In. By the way, I just want to let you two boys know any deal I'm in I, get you in. And since you're so good on here if you WanNa, do it even a small like five k bat through my syndicate no. Carry for you two. Zero carry you guys get a free ride. Apologize to everyone else out there who's paying Kerry Amin. backfired. To come on the show and you come on the show and you bring it in your prepared I can't tell you how many people want to be on the pockets. You probably have this yourselves they come on the podcast and they just want to talk about themselves and promote some bullshit and they don't want to have a real conversation. They don't want to disagree about stuff and here we are. We sit here. We disagree we childhood I I will disagree with you any day Jason do the work do fucking work okay. Do the work the SEC is changing accreditation laws we knew this was coming but they released a document And it's a starting point. So it's not exactly where I wanted to be. But the you when you came on our show, you said you were watching this. He seemed like a hawk like US Leon. Front. This is it for me boys I am in love right now. This is a message the securities. Exchange Commission. I love you. Everything you do. And I am in love with the SEC there's a woman at the SEC who said Americans shouldn't have to ask the SEC permission to invest. But today's accredited investor rule at least offers people pat to ask permission based on their education rather than simply telling them. No unless you're rich, this is from the SEC, which is what is saying for a A. Since I. Start Angel Investing. Ten years have been saying that you can go to Vegas and Bat. But you you can bet on sports you do whatever we want with your money. You'll flip quarters for a dollar each but right now we know for a fact, those things are expected value negative for the person betting startups at least have a chance of being expected value positive of course, and they could have the outlier of being generational wealth, which is I believe. Why the American dream is not believed in anymore, they're just getting started they want to dip their toe. So they said the spousal equivalent. So basically, you can pool your resources with your spouse, which has always been an issue for my syndicate angels and others, which is, can my spouse read? The deal memo does my spouse counts? Of course if you're married like you're a unit already, this is how the law looks at you. You file your taxes together Yada Yada. Members of an investment team. A fund. Can put money in. So if nick, the producer of this week in startups is sitting with all these meetings and he doesn't meet the accreditation threshold. He can invest in a syndicate wanted to make it to k. bet but he can do Robin Hood. God bless him and due to K- bats. But it can't do bat on remote Arrow Yeah did did they change the way they used to describe that as was using this ridiculous language as sophisticated person do you know if they reuse that for the like if you worked at an investment firm you or a sophisticated person and therefore we're able to the word sophistication that's how they that's how they say it in Australia that's their version of credited but. I love sophisticated but here's the here's the kicker and this is where I think. I'm actually play a role in this and I literally emailed the SEC commissioner yesterday. Those with a series seven licence, which is hard to get. But sixty five percent of people pass it on the first try I series sixty five and there's another one, a series eighty, one or two. I don't know any of these. I mean I know of them because kids I went to high school with tried to get their series seven to the game of work on wall. Street. But and for financial certifications are going to be able to be accredited. Like here's a test from like my Angel University course or the Aquarium FM course where this. Is like a series seven is was built to be you know a trader on Wall Street like it was nothing to do with two private company invest in private companies? Yes. So what I want to make is my own best. In so I submitted to them the NGO University Course and book and I said Hey if people read the book, take the course and I gave them a test. Would that count and could I certify somebody WHO's an Uber driver making fifty thousand a year to be allowed to participate in the syndicate for COM DOT COM and I'm hoping that you know somebody clips this so. Thank you calm dot com. After we came on your show last time you're talking about com. I became a member. It's great. Thank you. have. You done the sleep stories yet. I haven't been using for sleep. I've I've just been using it for meditation, but it's the scenes, the scenes. Sophisticated person. So sophisticated com user I would say get if you're a rough night's sleep in which a have put on a com story annual. They literally study actions probably, but they studied science of sleep and allegedly said, this wasn't a political show. xactly. They studied the science of sleeping and they designed the sleep stories and I won't say how? With science to. Put you to bed. I'm going to leave it at that because I don't think they want the secret source revealed but anyway with the. UC Berkeley Guy who don't want to say anything beyond. But Maybe Matthew? Modine okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So Jason, I'm curious on this because I think this would be a really good idea for you to do and this could be huge for the syndicate. How do you manage like if I'm the chairman of the SEC and you come to me and say I want to make a test and I'm like yeah but you will Financially profit from more people joining your syndicate. How do you manage the conflict of interest between like you would be incentivized to crank out as many accredited investors as you can versus making sure that you know they are sufficiently educated I think if we took on the burden of the cost of the certification that would be one thing. So if we said, you can zoom into a call. and. We are going to pull up the quiz and we're going to ask you the question and we have a battery of one hundred questions. We have we have twenty five important questions that we have four versions of each right. So you can't steal it where record it and we will have one of our people do this twenty minute assessment with you. You'll pay fifty dollars for it and you get through it and we have the video recording. Of you saying. So there's an audit trail of so there's an audit trail. That's what I. That's what I would like to do is say we'll take the burden on of accrediting and we accredit you. We will have that video. We will give you a copy of the video of you taking the course not you taking the course you taking the test of course. So we're here we are in zoom we put a type form where you know this all these people who can attach a video to a to a test right? That's that's existing for certification already. We take one of those platforms and we just walked people through it. One of my proctors, one of our employees does this and then we save the video file and we put in a secret location. Maybe we put on Dot Com with a password and that you you joined the syndicate dot Com. But now you want to join Invest Angels to republic. You could say here is my certification of me answering questions and we could ask a question like what is pro rata Please define for me the word pro rata. Pleased to find for me what information rights are and why they're important. Please define for me. What Will Be. Both. Of those questions is everything you're GONNA learn on the acquired LP show. The. Answer to both questions it depends which has the dangerous part of this Iraqi. But okay how about just define what pro rata rights mean it depends it depends right or but okay who could be pro pro the Should you review the dot I mean when I took my gun test to get a gun, they literally hire you go i. went to the gun store. In Culver City natch I said I want a GP one hundred which is You know a pretty nice gun that. You only have to fire, once leave it at that. And it's a service revolver for police officers for fifty years before they got into glocks and so basically, you could throw a GP one hundred and the bottom of your pools. What the guy told me you could use it to hammer nails and then it would still fire like it's that rugged of gun. And I was professionally trained on. But when I took the test, they handed me a test and the guy says here, take the test I said, well, I don't ever read a book, just give it a shot I take and it's like, I kid you not said the safest way to. Hold a gun is in the air. Pointing at the ground. Pointing it away from the target. In, a holster with the safety on it. And you're kind of like Let me think about that. I think I'm going to hold it in the air straight up. These. Were the stupidest questions in the I got I got one or two questions of twenty. Wrong. You need to get like sixteen and the only question I got wrong was like about the caliber of bullets. Some obscure thing that has nothing to do with gun safety it's just like a driver's test. Close to like a driver when you the only one that people get wrong on the driver says, what do you do at a yellow light you're supposed to stop and most people are like speed up and go through it. You're like that sounds more dangerous than stopping. Like yellow light means so is that a is that a national or is that certified by a state I think? It's a California state thing, and then in other places, you can buy them without taking the quiz. And then in California they literally give you a little card and you sign it and it says, I am certified to have a gun. The End. Like it's so like literally you can. Bygones, you can vegas I think if I recorded a test where I asked to twenty five questions about angel investing. and. Then what I WANNA do is I want to limit people in our syndicate. To. The minimum. For the first ten deals that's a good idea. So I thought that'd be a pretty good idea who's to say listen if you're for your first ten investments are minimum meetings UK, you can only but UK. So then if there's a super crater and I always talk to my team around this, the average size right now for our deals is four thousand dollars. I. Think for four to five thousand dollars for each deal is the average size needed some people who wells who put in fifty and twenty five, and you get some people who are just like I'm going to put the minimum and hope I hit a a com dot com or density or whatever. and. So this is this is big for me because. Imagine if I was on this podcast right now and remember I talked to you about remote our. If I was able to say, Hey, guys, I got five K for each of you and remote our and anybody listening who wants to be involved. You could put in five hundred dollars. And you can do this. You can do five hundred dollars up to five times a year, and then if you show your tax return. Or you're counting census your tax return. We will let you invest up to twenty percent of whatever your tax return says. That's the way. I. Think. It should work which would be like if you went to Vegas and they're like how many ships can you buy and they're like you by five hundred at a time as much as you want. But if you WANNA buy more than five hundred you either need to be an accredited investor or we have to have on file your tax return so you can't blow your whole life savings. So you're saying that you you WANNA threshold even without having or whatever hoops you know who has been lowered now who? Sold amount that you can do without a no hoops I would say some there could be some common thinking out loud here there could be a combination. So, if you want to not have a cap, you have to take the course and you have to have the video recorded test and you have to have twenty three of twenty five questions or whatever's reasonable. If you want him for this lake vanguard, the wealth managers league, you want to go buy equities like sure you want to trade options. We're GONNA have to talk to you exactly, and by the way Robin Hood One of Migrate Investments of all time. You know they are going through a process now because tragically there was a suicide that occurred. And we don't know the details of that's you want to be very cautious commenting on it I. I have to be extremely cautious investor because. When you have a pool of thirteen million people, some number of people commit suicide per hundred thousand think the number in the United States sadly is increasing and we live very long and suicide is becoming a tragically an option for some people and so we don't know in this situation it what role if any robinhood played or there are I, I'm in the professional gambling space with my poker playing. I've seen people lose millions of dollars. I've been at the table when I've seen people lose more money than they can afford to lose I've seen people go negative. I've seen people be on five hundred thousand dollars payment plans for ten years. I kid you not and these are poker games were not paying you know. Might not be a great life choice And I've seen people sign over titles, two cars. I've seen people like serious shed like crazy shit in private home games. You know like. and. These are rich people, and so I think having any rules of the road just like you have probably seen your friends even college gambling with a bookie. For. Sure and there's nobody telling them like by the way can you pay this off the bookie site? Yeah. I'll take that action. You know they're not I the way I look at this I'm going to be successful either way and I want you'd have a great experience I want you to only at the amount of money you can afford to lose and I use the word that all the time and I say in my memos which you guys read my deal memos. Can you make make sure you're both accredited correct? Yes. Well now I am for sure. Okay. Can we make sure they're accrediting them on? Email join email join at the syndicate dot Com Heidi who will make sure you're credited I. Want you guys to read my deal memos because I always put the Bet I am making on this company. The risk I am taking is that they're able to do the following. And then here is there deal memo and I force everybody to do a Webinar and I use the term bet all the time because it is a bet and only that way you can afford to lose and people ask me what percentage and you know what percentage well, it depends on how old you are, how much you need the money do you have three kids in private school but if you're a single individual making A hundred thousand dollars a year. You know post this changing I'd say five percent or ten percent of your net worth would be the upper bounds of what would be acceptable if you were doing this and it was your passion and you wanted to make a career because if you farmer temperatures and officials ideas is a good idea I like. Is just paternalistic and like I. mean the thing like this is the thing about regulatory capture regulatory capture exists to serve the current market leaders not. Explained to regulatory capture for people who don't know what that means they says like these these. Trawling me. Love. You back. You. Wonder. You know the nature of the audience who don't understand what the word regulatory capture is. Can you define that while I'm looking at up on Wikipedia? Haven't idea because Bill Gurley says an all time. So I don't know the history of decoded investor rule, but Likud is it actually protect and who does it actually benefit? It actually benefits all the large financial institutions that have used the fact that you need to be A. What's there's a credit investor, but then there's qualified institutional qualified air. Something like. John now. To, invest in venture capital funds to get rid chester actally. Yeah their markets are supply and demand. If you're artificially limiting the supply of capital to go into the highest growth assets, you're capturing it for yourself like that's what's going on here. Yes. Yeah, and more abstractly regulatory capture is that the it's kind of like when to lawyers see each other in court all the time so they have reason to be fraternal with each other based on. That long term relationship more. So than the people they represent at the end of the day, these regulators have been regulating the people in a certain business for a long time. They get to know each other really well, and you can make really compelling arguments when you're the one being regulated that the rules should change in some way and they like the regulators tend to listen to you because. You've built up this relationship over real estate brokerage. Be another one like is a real estate broker work totally you or their client buying the house, the seller or are they working for each other? They're playing an integrated game, not a single turn game where their relationship with that person across the table they need to preserve for future transactions. Right and the person we're talking about here is. The real estate broker, not the buyer and seller in all cases like and they're doing all kinds of shenanigans. I had had my real estate broker I'm GONNA, leave it at that who was like listen Jason I think this is the right time to accept his offer because, Joe Biden you know is going to get an office. It's going to change this and I said stop you right now. Don't ever give Jason Canas financial advice don't ever give Jason Calgon struggle trade. I gave you a copy of my book. Your job is to get me the highest price ever sell me on anything I. Don't want a piece of advice from you other than. Like what's the best new? Restaurant to open and he said, coppee. Each any robot cope each. And my wife was a you're too hard on him and I said, no. These brokers are always trying to work you because. If they sell your home for a million dollars nine, hundred thousand or one point one, they make you know whatever that is two or three points on that it makes no difference. So this is actually I heard this I can't remember I read this the other day a day but somebody had this great idea. Real estate transactions and real estate agents and brokers. Perfect use case for tiered carry solely. Million you get three percent, you sell my home for over one point two, you get five percent of the ups, their her you get seven percent one, hundred percent. One percent of the million they should get for. Once, you pick what price though zillow and everybody agrees is the right pressure this house let's say it's a million. Okay. You get one percent of a million you get your ten k. you get. Two percent of anything from a million to one point one, one, one out. Then you get three percent of everything from or could even be more it could be ten percent, right? It could be you could get one percent on the first million and then ten percent on everything past then I'd. Sitting around, but they will do that. But I sold the other house I saw recently I did I did a buyer transaction you know my legal fee was. Twelve thousand dollars. It's a lot better than this is on. This is on a significant house to men like this is not on a one million dollar house. I'll just leave it at that were shocked. Yes. Longer than US Jason knows you're GonNa be there because I'm getting you in remote our and we're GonNa ride that into the sunset. I got a couple I got a couple of we gotta do some deals boys. We get some deals go and man, you guys got my phone number. You can. Let's get on a phone thread going here I message just start sharing some deals make some money. Let's get some conflicts going consciousness back. Well, that's the next topic and we'll close on this. SPEC. IPO's per year special acquisition, special purpose acquisition. companies, corporations one of those two words, my friends, Corporation corporation my friend mouth brought these back to life three years ago I was at the poker table talking to him about him. When he did IPO A was looking for a company. As you can see in the two, thousand sixteen, we had thirteen of them. Two, thousand seventeen, thirty, four, two, thousand, eighteen, forty, six, twenty, nine, hundred, and fifty, nine, twenty, twenty, eighty, and counting. and. So this is taking off and you can see the chart there if you're watching the video youtubecom. Subscribe to this week in startups to see the video. And I just literally had a wonderful moment. My friend Rick full up damned me and said I need to talk to you and I was like, okay here we go. We sold desktop metal which he got me a little. Yum. Yum Sisa in the early first round and he said I got some good news. I. Said hit me what's the price and he said we're going public and I said what he said yet, which back it out and that was announced yesterday. So now J. cale has uber desktop Matal in a little company waiter that we have a diminished misnomer shares in but at least get three. IPO. Companies these three companies in you know the first hundred investment. So three percent gone public plus it's still early I. Maybe it's the first hundred fifty. I'm not sure of the desktop mental Kurt I'm losing track but I mean, obviously, robinhood com, there's a couple of other companies that are being spec thumb tack data stacks that are being speculated, but these are changing everything. And I. Our good friend Bill Gurley. Who has been lobbying against the wealth transfer that occurs during regular IPO's he was on the direct military capture regulatory literary capture. He was talking about direct listings with spotify did but a very hard and painful specs are very easy and painless, and he just wrote a blog post which sure the two of you read called the third door and he is now on board I would not be surprised. They do not have any answer information if Bill Gurley. who is on his last fund with benchmark. would. Pop Open. A couple of benchmarks packs I. Don't know that I'm completely speculating there. But my best EC Timoth is now on his third or fourth back and I don't have any inside information on those but I would never bet against him authored Bill Gurley what are your general thoughts, David? Question First. Jamaa. Literally brought. This thing will not back from the did he did he disowned one? Yeah. What What inspired him where'd you get the idea? That's a great question. I think you know he at one point we had a deep discussion about this. You know he he he grew up very poor. We came from Sri Lanka had nothing he worked his way to where he got. He got a series of lucky events. We were both at AOL at the same time. We were both at what's called an VP, which is blown EDP, which means you're basically you get to go to meetings with Ted Leonsis and. You know Steve Case or whatever but he basically in charge of nothing like he was in charge of icq as was crashing into the ground I would they I bought weblogs Inc, which became basically the entire AOL business after that when they were happening post in tech, a bunch of other content sites. So we were there we were kind of hungry. He went to Mayfield. Then he found out about facebook he took the job, their famous I started Mahala became inside and then I became the first requests cat. So a series of lucky events occur. And we deep discussion about how we Were both meeting as we were raising funds over the last five years. We all invested in each other but. You know we were. We were going to the let's call it the halls of endowments, right? Like all the classical appeal is that you want it. Yeah. You've been there and you your. You'd think you want that money and want that. Then what we realized is. What we were both looking for was validation. Right and we had deep discussion about this and I've heard of Princeton invest in your funding. You're like, oh, always tell everybody I went to Harvard twice I went to Harvard Business School twice and both times I tried to come back the second day and the visitor past didn't work like. and I interviewed Timoth at Harvard Business School. We got fifteen minutes into interview and he said you're all morons for. Putting, two, hundred, Fifty K., and this and four teachers walked out of the room. I was. Be. Shortly after he started social yeah, you're too and. We both got to the point in our career where. The idea that we would be tap dancing and putting our hats out and saying, please validate us. institution. We we started to realize like well maybe. Is More work than just building your own brand. and. That's why maybe you saw tomorrow follow me on to CNBC. and. I'm not saying to credit I literally told NBC. CNBC called me and said, we saw your interview with trauma because CNBC Producers Watch this podcast and they can you put us in touch with your mouth like and I was like you should have gone the time he's amazing and those performances. Beato he went from having fifty thousand wonder printing machine. Now, he's got more followers than I do and I think what happened was the disillusionment with Begging the institutions for your very existence. I think for guys and Gals were outsiders. It's it's a little demoralizing. To get where you get and then you're Kinda. You know bending the knee? You know and it's like, why am I bending the knee in service of some institution that's existed this long week if anything shouldn't they be bending the need to me for tripling or quadrupling their money and that's why he famously when he shifted gears said, you're welcome to all the L. Peas I made well, this money you're welcome and he just came out gangbusters and when he found out about when he And he'll tell his own story when he's on your podcast. Guests if you want, you just email me and I'll see. He I, think with the fact things found out about it. He we'd all known about it, but it was always easy. But then we started realizing the size of these deals were getting so big that going to these big institutions and begging them for crumbs and then having them run you through the. The the grinder. I mean the way they brutally grind you for your fifty million dollars or twenty five, million dollar check. Well if you're a personality like he is rise or I am. I can just say, I'm investing in this company does anybody WanNa come along for the ride and my syndicates as Hell? Yes, we do right hell. Yes. We actually your what you do and the same thing for him except that a bigger stage, right this gets to I mean this is why Warren has to announce his investments after he invests because he moves the market, I mean on a very micro stage that kind of happens with you and early stage investing where. You're actually value creative to accompany. But because when you decide you WANNA put your twenty five k. and the company gets a hell of a lot more than twenty five k. more valuable. That the other capital you attract the legitimization, it brings to it. You know it's the argument that the the. Tier one venture firms the world have been making for a long time that we bring more value to you at a platform for a minute but your company gets more valuable by taking our money more than just the cash hundred momentum trade. It is I always tell people you're like putting a stamp in your passport. When you go to the next place, they see the other stamps and whether that stamps wise. SEATAC stars launched Jason Sokha whoever it is it just makes the next stamp. Stamped a little bit faster and you get that momentum. But what's really happening I believe is the. There's a new. Lane that's opening up. It's a hyperloop. And the HYPERLOOP is syndicates. it's, accelerator syndicates back. And this is going to be a new lane that's going to open up and I have two of the three. I don't have right now but I literally got a phone call. Wonder you guys thinking this? If somebody said to me, have you considered backing what you're doing with your accelerator and the syndicate and I said I don't know if there's an equivalent with venture fund accelerator going public but tell me more and I'm literally going to have a meeting next subdued and literally. Yeah. I was like you should totally raise a SPEC but this is interesting is there enough internal enterprise value in the NTT or is it more of an investment holding company? Yes. The question is like if let's say the, let's say I was sitting on three hundred million dollars from back. And then value the company has that three, hundred million and then output one, hundred, million in value on my enterprise day at four, hundred, million, evaluate three, hundred, million in cash. That I deployed that cash and we get. Twenty percent of the returns each time. Now we've got our own holding companies back. A, and then you can buy shares in the company, and then we just disclosed what our holdings are. So now you've got. Five percent of calm. Oh, we own. You know this many shares of Uber. We know we'd have to happen from this point forward obviously but the ideology, there's enterprise value in you as an operating company that you're an investor. This is your fund is just kind of like a fund and it would be rolling. So okay, we just keep investing that three hundred from the back the money comes back. Do we actually then deploy that or do we just own more future businesses? Do we just blow the mind twitter by coming up with the name rolling SPEC rolling back hold out of sight before we publishes issue? Can you get rolling back? Dot Com immediately I'm not joking rolling back. Dot. Dot Com. But it would be like a rolling stock right like. I did consider it I. One thing I love about what I do right now is I answered to nobody nobody knows exactly what I'm doing except for what I explained to you guys on your podcast of the grand. Vision. which is you know if you pay hundred bucks, you can hear the grand plan in for two. Two to. then. Okay. bye-bye bigger. Yeah I mean and it looks like right now the the backlog looks like and I'm going to go through the company's here about the Notable Tech IPO which ones aren't, but we got AIRBNB. And what you guys think this through. And I watched it pick your top two. In terms of. The price. Okay. I. Want you to pick your tap to. Let me think of the question here. You're top to that. If you could only own mill, you know you have two million dollars. And you get to put a million dollars into each one at whatever price they wind up going at just zoom each goes out at the reasonable price. So soon they go out at the right reasonable price back or whatever you have to put one million dollars into each of these, and you get to take that one million dollars out ten years from now. But you cannot touch it. You have to choose between AIRBNB. And I think we understand it's GONNA to out of thirty or forty or something like that. We have Asana. Threat Up. kwol tricks from Ryan. Who is on the pod was acquired for eight billion by SAP and now they're gonNA IPO it again I guess Pailin Tear, Peter, Thiel secretive intelligence company would seven, hundred, forty, two, million. Ant. Financial, which is Chinese. Mobile Payments Company I don't know much about. Formerly alipay. alipay right and the Jake House back. So those are your choices. Mumble you got the house back. Okay you want to be invited back now leave my now leave my. Literally a joke. But okay, here we go. I'm going to do it again why you think you guys can use your pans here they get through AIRBNB Asana threat up. Quarks pound tear. Ant Financial formerly, alley pay you put a million dollars into two of them. You get to take it out in ten years. Now you're making a bat here. That which one will create the which one will increase in value the most, and you have to take the money out ten years. She making a tenure bet would Jamaica tenure bet on? AIRBNB ASANA threat up quality treks Pailin tear or Ali pay. Do do dude do dude. You're looking up and that means you know the answer. Who is your number? Who is your first choice? Just pick just one Ben. I'm putting both into ant financial. Oh Wow he went all in you took. You took your river, you took your turn and your river bet and you added them to your flatbed. That's a power I am shipped to ship them on the wrong. Jay Cow podcast apparently. No this is that an all in right there. Okay. Well, then that leaves it to you and I do the hard work David who was your first that comes up you make my first AIRBNB. Why? Well I think there's two important dimensions. Many important mentions but two really important dimensions in investing long-term investing. There's what's your I are heard all lake what's your? How much compounding do you think how much room to run? And then the other dimension is your merging of safety and margin of safety gets expressed in the price Now, you're talking about the bottom in other words losing money. Well it it means like. 'cause you could be wrong. You don't know what the future is going to hold short and so the margin of Safety League. If you're buying into something that is a very, very full price, you have a very little margin, very low margin of safety if you're buying at an undervalued praise based on your estimation of what a fundamental. Value of the company is Then you have a high merger safety so I think it's likely. AIRBNB IS GONNA, have it decent margin of safety given everything that's going on right now they're already bouncing back and I heard by the way at this was public or not for her to whisper but the whisper was they had the best July ever. In History Company was that publicly known somebody said it to was reported metro was reported or not, and I'm a Ju said to me either I read it online or somebody read it online said it to me in a party carry member some material possibly public information in other words I I may have dreamt it as well. I heard at some point don't trade on anything I say. So then there's the like. Okay. So First. Potential. Okay. So I think there's I. think there's probably going to be more margin of safety airbnb right now on the race than any of these others. Beyond that I. got it. So hard to say I, do I'm not familiar enough with any of these names I'm tempted to say ant financial like Ben, but I'm really worried about we chat pay which I. My understanding is taking share away from Alipay in got in China Now I do think financial has a very robust and growing wealth management business. But I just don't know enough. So I think it's probably my number two but I need to do more work. Case of you had to pick you number two, you go with financial. And this time. All right. I was attracted to the AIRBNB possibility and I do think that that's a company that will be here in ten years however. I do think they will face competition at some point I think they're fully valued here and I'm going for return. I'm not going for safety because I'm looking for big returns I need some that moves the needle for me. I believe that quality tricks is run by an absolute beast of a CEO. And that's my first choice because I think that that business is. Just going to continue to be a juggernaut and his run. So professionally, it's crazy. And then that leaves me with Asana and financial in the fully valued airbnb threat up. I don't know enough about. And Pailin tears interesting but it's tiny and. I think if it was going to break out, it would have broken out already I, kind of feel like maybe that's a niche business and it's knocked doesn't have a lot of room for customer in. More customers right. So I'm going with tricks because of the professional of the management. And then. I don't like the idea of investing in Opaque, Chinese companies because they don't trust market. Stocked so you may find the shocking, but I don't like to play a rig casino and I consider anything China is a rigged casino so I take in financial out for that reason. But I do applaud you. For being a maniac who wants to shovel chips in a casino where you could be using a marked deck. Or the value of your currency could suddenly change rapidly. Now loved the product Asana and I feel like that could become the standard for what they do. And I do love Airbnb, and so it's really now down to between AIRBNB Asana. And My gut tells me. AIRBNB is very valued will be here, but it's not gonna be a hundred acts return. I think in ten years, it's going to be a three or four x return. I think Assad has the chance to be a fifty extra terms with therefore I'm going with. Which I think is a tax return. Asada which I think is a fifty x return I'm going for cash on cash return I'm going to in my bat nick want these bets put on a long-term betting site there's some betting cyber you can put a long-term dot org. So we're going to go along bet sat org I'm putting quality tricks in as my number one. Putting putting quad tricks and Asana and I'm GonNa even stipulate that I. Think I could tech squad tricks and I could fifty x Asana in ten years. So let's make that that you guys WanNa put what you think your cash on cash multiple. No I do not I have no, no book mcclair. Daily. This is what I say poker with somebody. I shovel my chips said it's. Time to about it. This is why don't get invited back. Deserve Burger gave us. This is. About Lake, what we'd actually do think what we'd actually what it, what I'd actually. Put the two million Bucks Amazon. Companies growing forty percent. Year on year. They have limited cash. Unlimited cash credible cash flow dynamics in the largest markets Carl hard to bet against them So it's girl in the same. It's growing faster than all of these companies much larger and much more defensible. It is actually crazy looking at the performance of Amazon. Basically, any venture vintage like you look at like I don't know the third maybe court. Fourth quarter, Mile. Like anybody but the top dessel venture investors probably underperformed Amazon in the last ten years and so then the question becomes is it become overvalued because people looking for a place for safety much like New York and San Francisco real estate, and so that is in effect I, think that people need to be wary of is in a crises, there's a flight to quality. And things people think will grow and sustain and when Chinese and the Russians were looking for places to hide money and to wash money they went to New York and San Francisco and bought places which by the way, that is the exact description of what the early stage funding market looks like right now, like when we were talking about that earlier, I think this is the most distinct way to describe it the same amount of capital being deployed in the top tier quote unquote top tier of companies at the highest prices so. Flight to quality clubhouse. clubhouse would be the one that you say is had the highest most insane Valuation Ninety Billion Dollar Valuation when they were at two thousand users and they're not even in the APP store yet. By the way boys I have. I have talked to no less than ten founders of companies. That have products either in market that are being pivoted towards clubhouse and spontaneous audio. I have test flights on my desktop. I'm on my application on my desktop and I have mockups from serious. You know entrepreneurs who are who are not to be trifled with. All got quite a different spin on clubhouse, but clubhouse has. Like House party if it hadn't gone sold because, how did have party get two games great. If House party hadn't been sold I think it would have gone public I think it would have been one of those companies that just like which would have been a public company right now had been spat out and this is important lesson right? Like these things would if specs had been here five years ago twitches backed Hands Down House party gets backed would've? Already has revenue right I, and they could. House party is what the eighteenth most important thing that epic does like. How does House party ever come on the radar of the CEO of a company with her fortnight under it? I think it's it's. I see I don't think Tim. Sweeney. Actually curly this is gonNA sound wrong. I'm going to say I don't think he cares that much about fortnight. Of course, he cares about fortnight, but he cares about what? It's all complicating, which is bringing more gathering and creative. Acts and creepy tours into an online environment that epochs infrastructure is powering. That's a nights about it. And thus part Adiel what makes more money since you're doing this on the acquired dot FM. Down just went real deep on this. So if you go to acquire DOT FM and sign up, you'll get the full detail but just in the abridged version fortnight is what percentage of their overall revenue. She private company so mark don't know for sure. Oh so they wouldn't tell you know but four-night housemates double digits so Well so I think me. Out Yeah about a a little more than a billion and a half in revenue and fortnight did over two billion in revenue a couple of years ago. It's come down a little bit. So I think it's the comparable businesses with fortnight being a little bit bigger right now. Okay. So fortnight is. Designed to prove how great the unreal engine is and just. Too good of a job. It's like I mean, that's not wrong. Well Yeah I think I think they thought about it lake Lake Amazon is aws is I am best customer that kind of how epic thinks about is like we are making this whole suite of tools from an engine to online services to live ops to payments to US store they turn their case study demo into a money printing machine. It's it's like Oh yeah. We condemn our suffer. Oh, by the way, our demo makes more money than like the top five video games. You not that dissimilar from Amazon not exactly like Amazon's like what costs us money Oh the servers. Great. Let's make money off them and it's like that's just such. An amazing concept is to look at Your Business and be like my God you know this podcast. Makes so much money that it was. What under wrote my first five years of angel investing is because this was so profitable. It was a very interesting bizarre turn of events how you guys doing with the with the money on your pockets does it make money to make enough to sustain you is it is it is it pocket change? Is it rant? What is it? Where you? Agree questions. It so it is not enough to sustain US I don't want to pretend it's like our day jobs ram but the way that we sort of think about it is that the LP show is a huge leg of the stool. It's around half of what we make the sponsorships at the half, and we've been sort of like insanely curatorial on sponsorships to date with the ideas anybody who's sponsoring the show has to be value creative to the content and that's You know it's probably held us back from full monetization potential but that's That's how we thought about it. We call it why listed advertising? So we turned down you know these guys doing these like payday loans against your SAS revenue. Have you saw me getting into with that twitter? I was getting into guy the guy from pipe dot com who's created a marketplace, and he's like your Best David. Gave US money. How could you not like us when I was like listened nice try but. We're trying to ask you what the percentages that you charge and you can't answer the question. And then this other one. Magazine the name of it but they were charging. One of our founders just had a very bad experience with them, but they were charging six percent and there and they were like, okay at six percent, right? They're like, no, no six thousand dollars on one hundred thousand and I'm like that six percent just a six thousand dollar fee over what period of time there like two months I'm like, okay. What is compounding interest six percent over six time periods? That's one hundred percent. No it's I'm sorry. It's fifty percent right or something like that. It'd be fifty percent I think. because. The rule of seventy two is if you divide seventy two. By six, it would take twelve months for it to twelve periods. Rita W money. So anyway, like fifty percent a year. So, as to credit cards charge that much like this is just don't worry about it just to float your your receivables and I said, wait a second that makes no sense to me if I have much receivables VC's are gonNA throw money. I mean a high valuation why would I do this stupidity and I? Literally they begged to be on the PODCAST I. told my salesperson's ready to get a big commission. I said, you know what I can't get behind it. You can't get behind and I'm sorry if the. Founders tells me data shitty experience and you can't explain to do but the pipe one. Is Very interesting they take. Let's say you sold. Your SASS product for one hundred bucks a month. Per seat and you had a somebody had one hundred seats so they were paying. Ten thousand a month, one, hundred, twenty, thousand in a are but they're paying monthly. You could put your hundred, twenty thousand dollars on their marketplace. And then somebody gets I will give you. A hundred thousand dollars now for one, hundred twenty, and then you could bid I'll give you one, hundred, five, they take hundred five that person makes fifteen thousands they're making fifteen percent interest essentially if you're still thing. Where you create a market price like that's why I like that one. So I. Think I might let them advertise. Because that to me I I said, if you give me three customers, they gave me one already because they asked publicly on twitter I. Said, if you get me tumor customers I'll I'll an they Chris the first customer loved it. They said, listen, Jayco we're watching the amount of money. We put forty thousand dollars in this contract we got you know whatever it was I. don't know thirty, six, thousand dollars now I put the thirty six, thousand dollars now into my final I know I'm not going. To lose a customer and if I lose one Africa customers, I can deal with it. So they do some sort of formula they don't let you put all of it in you portion of your a. r. n. or something, and then they make a marketplace and as well. I might actually want a bit on this I wanna make fifteen percent a million dollars and put a million dollars in your by Somme are yeah. They don't take warrants or anything now. Okay. Well, this seems pretty cool right Way Jason. So I WANNA, turn this the question you asked me I want your advice on it. So go to acquired as a side project. It's a labor of love it's learning in public. We both have learned so much from doing the show and like I love investing in companies and I love the work that we do at PS L. starting companies so like. How do you think we should think about acquired and what it is as a business and? kind of would it using our lives? Okay. If you need the I'm just GonNa Guess. You are. Eventually we'll have a thousand people paying one hundred dollars a year for and I'm just taking a guess. My in the ballpark. In the past. Past. That had not my job at colored order of magnitude. Okay. All right. So if you're if you're making two or three, hundred, thousand dollars a year from the paid one. And you get another one, hundred, two, hundred, thousand from advertise whenever she make a half million dollars a year from it. This is what I would. Take a little bit each to keep the lights on pay for your lifestyle that I would take ten percent of it and twenty percent of it and put it into marketing. Of the PODCAST and see if grows, it has possibility of growing. We will do that with our clips sometimes just put clips on and sometimes you'll see their boosted. So we'll put a boost behind a couple of clips. 'cause I'm always wanting more people to get access to the content and If you love doing this and you know listen we've been talking now for two hours and week ago for another two hours because we're passionate about what we're doing. Now, if this was a podcast about politics, I would wanNA kill myself and I will be would be wanna be off the podcast. So as long as you love what you're doing, keep doing it, keep it high quality. And it's deal flow. It's community building and you enjoy it like what could be better and if it monetize your brakes, even is great when I started eleven years ago we just did I would just it was called Cal Academy cast they did like forty episodes and I literally would take. Of quarterback when it was tapes and I still have the tapes and I just put on the table was like, can I visit you and I was like sure can I tape an interview with the always like what four hours like a podcast of that as God it's Dave Winer's doing this Pakistani and I recorded Williams was doing audio. He knew a podcast whereas I was like I wanNA take it for the buckets I tape. Right handed to somebody and say digitize this. Let's go. We had a digital recorder obviously, we would put two of them on the table and we're literally recording it on open microphones, and now we got one hundred, thousand dollar studio and I bought it for a million seven and two three thousand square foot studio like it's a professional operation now now, they're. Behind the scenes that's what a million bucks I. I bought a loft in in summer to record studio at of so that I have a permanent place in the pandemic. But Anyway I think the Peter Rojo setting gadget Omi something that was the success of his success early on with Gizmodo then he crediting Gadget and he said, what's the secret to? To blogging and it really is the secret to podcasting which is showing up. And you just. It doesn't really get interesting I think as a performer as an interviewer interrogator year three or four. How many years in are you guys how many episodes five and to agree with you? Right. So this is why you guys are good at it. Like when you guys came on the Pod I was like these guys are magic, get them all the time and. Keith Roy is magic right there are some people who are good at this when you get to your four five. You too can get on a podcast and I could put a mystery guess on and you'd be able to interview them with no show notes. And it'd be a fucking interview like literally could just take a found or put them in the seat and why if you do is ask him what are you working on listen and then do it. I specifically told my assistant six seven years ago. No more lunches I'm never going to lunch with anybody anybody says go to lunch with Jason Tell Them Jason doesn't do lunches with people because he's got to get home in time for family he doesn't do lunches heats a little something on his desk. But. But. If you WANNA come on the pod He'd love to sit with you for an hour on the pod and you can get a cup of coffee or a Burger I'll have a burger delivered afterwards and so then I just exchange lunch in my schedule for this. And if you if you guys were in town I'd love to go to lunch with you. But fuck it. Let's just do a pod and then I'll order Rahman or some Bell Campo Burgers, and we'll. We'll pound those after he left the show done. So keep just keep doing it is the bottom line and you do it twice a week or once now. No we do it twice about twice a month you get to weekly frequencies also important. So I think you're not I think the other thing you could do is you could separate you. You could do an interview each and do shorter episodes, April? Lesson too. So I would be afraid to experiment you've locked into something that works. A quick. You find a founder you love and you just do a thirty minute one I don't know if you show me to the emergency pod where I talked about the house room. The antitrust stuff I just did an emergency pod and I said, Nick. These are the clips I like Gimme four other clips I played the clip I gave my two cents on it. I played the clip again. Nick put it together and I copied it from Bill Simmons and I used to do emergency pods and I call them emergency pods back in the day and I don't know bill. Simmons. Copied it for me but for. Go. Now, I don't know I. Don't think. So I think it's an obvious idea which is some breaking news happens you run to your microphone and record, and so when I remember when he got traded to clippers. There was like you know a little bit on Espn but you know it's happened on a Sunday and just Sunday night Bill Simmons you know his on densify doesn't emergency pod and he talks for forty five minutes and you know what? That's what I want. So you guys need to do a little more experimenting I think you should try doing a solo one, each so you can just fill in between 'cause I I. If you notice this week startups, you're getting three a week from us. Now I think is are pretty consistent, and then I added a fourth, which is I do a weekly recap. which I just started, which was talk about the three people who were on this week into a highlight episode. And the people who hit the top of the Charts Ben Shapiro Joe Rogan are five days a week six days a week. So frequency matters, but you don't want frequency to fuck with quality right? And waiting. This is where we've been thinking about. We need like we a few different we already with the Ip who with the L. P. Show and show but our main show episodes we do weeks of research we want it to be like. Whereabout. Anyone sows are your hardcore like foundation of what you do but that doesn't mean you dow like that's the steak. Right. But that doesn't mean you can't have a little side order or you know an amused booze you're a special dessert or some pettifor is at the end like be give yourself permission to experiment right? Because some of the things might hit ten questions for Bom and Tim. Ferriss does is pretty well like Tim Ferriss is like I mean talk about lean startup he's like you know what? I, paid so much money for this podcast. Let me have somebody else do it. Devolved favorite answer, twenty questions like sure I'll get your entire audience and answer twenty questions. So Nepal instead of doing a great deal, it's a great deal for both parties and then. He has daddy dead tips of Fred to like fuck it. I don't want to do another episode. Can you come on? I know you were guest and just tell me the ten. Say You. Give us your ten bucks you love and I don't know if he gives half the money to those people or whatever. But what are gray rack like and we did something we didn't experiment stopped it. But after people were on the podcast, I let them do an Ama with the. Zoom call within the slack. So we both have slacks. And they didn't come out. Great. They didn't come out bad but they did a little. Yeah I. Think it's a good format for read it and text. Doesn't work well when you have professional people doing interviews versus the audience because we can ask questions. And frame them listen to the answer and then ask a follow up question whereas Amazon just. kind of one dimensional I think. we'll call all right Jason I. appreciate it always, always a great to get your brain listen I do appreciate you guys coming on the pod because you bring so much and it just you know listen I like I said you know if we were in the same Saturday, we'd be we city we go get Rahman together Roberta's and just chilling I'm here in San Francisco Oh you aren't gonna by without just saying that to be nice and You. Know if you are in. San Francisco. And if you do WANNA get wrong. No No. No. You gotta come down to Send Me. There's a place called Tie Shokhin T. A. S. H. O. K. E. N. They just opened up last month the month before to do outside seating and I went there delightful. You make the trip down to San Mateo. It's my trade I know the owner anti show can start it in the fifties in. Tokyo and they specialize in the Superman Rahman which I never liked Rahman but it's dipping noodles. Yup Shia buckwheat noodles on one side, and then you have this thick sauce, which is you know Rahman is just like this watery soup I never liked it with those like Terrible noodles in them that are like from a dried out newness not for me. These are fresh pasta noodles that they make on-site noodles. You dip them into this like anchovy dip Dick. Rich. Thick thick and you slurp them up and then you have a little bit of sauce left and then they come with a hot water. Cattle and they pour hot water in at the end and they top it off and make it. You know two thirds with hot water and then you drink a soup modern we are going to literally will do it, and then we'll talk about it on the pod. Thanks again to our sponsors. Thanks to ban thanks to David I want you to just listen to your boy jake our right. Now let's get another couple of hundred page subs for them at acquire DOT FM well worth it. We'll see you all next time on the the. By by stay safe.

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#1244 - Colin O'Brady

The Joe Rogan Experience

2:13:12 hr | 1 year ago

#1244 - Colin O'Brady

"Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the program. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by teeter. Now, if you're a regular listener this podcast, you probably heard talk about teeter before it was actually before long before I had it as a sponsor like more than a decade before I've been using the teeter inversion table, I'm a huge fan of spinal decompression. It's one of the best ways for you to relax the muscles around your back, and it offers spinal decompression, which is so critical. If you don't know it spinal decompression is folks. Okay. Let's think about spinal compression, most of life you're carrying things yet. Maybe got bad posture. Things are getting smushed, right? All the time. And it's very hard to unsmashed them. That's where a teeter inversion table comes in hanging. Upside down is a fantastic way to decompress the back and get rid of back pain. It's called inversion therapy and uses gravity. 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Joe Rogan five dollars would go to you. Five dollars will go to help our friend. Justin Rennes fight for the forgotten charity building wells for the pig. And the Congo and five dollars will go to support you FC fighter. Ray Bork son's medical bills. It's a win win win who and last, but not least we are. Also brought to you by ZipRecruiter ZipRecruiter. Ladies and gentlemen. Do you need to hire someone? Well, you know, what a fucking the acid is to find the right person for the job. It's a pain, and you don't wanna go wandering around on message boards and job boards. And listen ZipRecruiter. Will find the candidates for you hiring his challenging, but there's one place where you can go where hiring is simple, fast and smart a place where growing businesses connect to qualified candidates. That place is ZipRecruiter dot com slash Rogan. Hiring used to be hard multiple job sites. Stacks of resumes, confusing review processes not. Anymore? Fuckers? Hiring can be easy. And you only have to go to one place. Ziprecruiter dot com slash Rogan. Ziprecruiter sends your job to over one hundred of the web's leading job boards, but they don't stop there with their powerful matching technology. Ziprecruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invite them to apply to your job as applications come in ZipRecruiter analyzes each one and spotlights the top candidates. So you never miss a great match. Ziprecruiter is so effective that eighty percent if employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through this site within the first day and now listeners this podcast and try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address, ZipRecruiter dot com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash. Rogin are OG. A n ZipRecruiter dot com slash Rogan. Sip recruiter, the smartest way to hire. My guest today. What what a human being ready for this guy? His name is Colin o'brady, Colin o'brady, just became the first human being in history to cross Antarctica solo unsupported an unaided a nine hundred thirty two mile expedition in fifty four days. Holy ship. He walked across Antarctica pulling that three hundred seventy five pound sled of food. Fuck. I mean, just an incredible human being, and that's not always dies done a bunch of other stuff too. He's a fascinating guy and a really really nice guys. Well, then you'd never you would never guess that. This man is such a beast really enjoyed talking to him friendly. Intelligent articulate, why am I still talking? Please welcome Colin o'brady. The Joe Rogan experience. Rub. Your podcast. We live. What's up, man? Let's up dude. What's Larry's, folks? I have to tell you this. I did a podcast earlier today. And he said wild your second for the day. He goes impressive, endurance. Do. You know, how fucking ridiculous that is for you to say, this is a guy who walked across Antarctica. How many days it'll take you fifty four days. Sly yourself by myself Shrek in the fuck and frozen tundra. That was an endurance speed of its own. Yeah. Just real endurance feet. I'm just sitting down talking to people. Oh my God. You talked already for two hours. How do you do it? Two more hours. Here we go. Yeah. Easy. Yup. Yup. To what the fuck where you doing? Just just getting back actually still still practically have snow on my shoes. I got back about a month ago. Fifty four day journey first person in history to cross the entire continent solo unsupported, so no resupplies throughout the thing. No, no aid. No win kites. Nothing. Just me dragon at three hundred seventy five pounds sled across Antarctica. I can't. Leave it only took fifty four days. Yeah. It's so big look it in article on a map account long. Do you think it would take you to walk across America? Well, you got so we usually look at an article to map this hilarious. I showed people picture of Antarctica. You're smart guy. You probably noticed. But usually people see it on a project because then it gets flat. Right, right. It's actually circular. So I went from the edge of the is shelf to the via the south pole to the Ross Ice Shelf. So basically kind of a diagonal across the center and then back to the other f-, what do the flat earthers think about your traversing this this area? This is what you did. This is how you there. It is. Exactly. Yes. We went to the center of the fucking earth. Basically the top of the pole yet bottom of the earth. You know, stand down there holding everyone up on my shoulders. Wow. So you were at the south pole, and then you trekked over to the to the ice shelf. It's funny. You say about the flatter Thurs though. Because all jokes aside, I've been getting a lot of trolling on my page. I've got guys go on like, oh, I was doing this speech. The other day people are supervised come up in the QNA afterwards wanna shake and take a picture, whatever. And this guy walks up and this real Ernest look on his face. And he's like, so I really wanted to ask you, how's the whole? And I was like excuse me. He was like, you know, the whole at the center, and I was like give me a little more. He was like, you know, like when you got to the edge. And I was like oh, man. Like, you really ask this question right now. Like we are talking about the did quite nowhere to go with it. I was like, yeah. There's actually I at least I didn't see the edge and the curvature kept going in amid. Is such a strange thing to believe, but people do and that people think people are trolling about that. And you know, what it actually started out? It's another four Chan thing, you know. Did you know that it's well, I'm sure there's probably somebody believed it before that. But it started off people trolling on four Chan then eventually people just started actually going. It is flat. And then they start believing it and videos YouTube video there's another YouTube video someone linked to me the other day. I thought I thought oh had like a few hundred years, but at twenty thousand views all these guys debating like call improved that there's not a wall like the wall like there would be like game drones at the edge of the world. There's this whole conversation about this. Another twenty eight thousand people it's proved a call never actually went of. He's a new world order Schill. Well, the other the other buddy would was that we got up budge on the it's the grand pays. I'm out there alone completely by myself. But I wanna share the whole story through my Instagram to like share the journey with people. Inspire others to do whatever they want to do and kept like woman, he's not out there alone. He's taking pictures was like the film crew as like guys have you never heard of tripod and a timer of watched survivor. Exactly. So so so funny comments along those lines. So your your sled was three hundred and how many pounds three hundred seventy five pounds of start. So basically food and fuel was the main the main way so people I call my project the impossible. I that's sort of what I named the project because several people are right there. And so not only walking you're dragging this big ass. Heavy sled. Yeah. Yeah. Look, dude people. So people have tried this going back one hundred years to earn Shackleton saying if it was possible, and then the last year, some really experienced PO exports have given a shot and one guy actually died less than a hundred miles from the finish line because of lack of nutrition and some challenges with the weather and things like that. But people called it, you know, people after that we're like it's impossible. And the reason people thought it was impossible because you can't get resupplies. Meaning if you feel your sled with food and a certain amount, you actually can't drag this lead anymore. So the whole math equation really was figuring out just how much food and fuel. I could put in this led the fuel melts the water so melts the ice into water, essentially, and that equal to three hundred seventy five pounds and to be truth. I could pull it on the first day. Like I one hour into getting dropped off. I'm dropped off completely alone out there in Antarctica plan this project for a year, you know, and I get dropped off after about one hour pull in three hundred seventy five pounds sled through the snow. It's minus twenty five degrees out. I'm I'm crying. I'm literally crying the tears in my goggles are starting to freeze. And I'm like, oh my God. I pick up my satellite phone, call home to my wife. Jenner who also creates plans all these projects with me. And I'm like, babe. I think we named the project the right thing the impossible, I. Yep. It looks like it might be impossible to keep going somewhat. Our? Our into a thousand mile journey poet lead told everyone I'm going to do this. And I'm already having those doubts PO up. Fortunately, I was able to get a little bit further that day and fifty four days later made it to the end how far did you get in the first? Well, it's funny because we show just show the map actually starts on ice shelf, which is basically the frozen and there's an edge of that. That's where the continent starts. And so I have a way point on my GPS that marks that. So the plane that drops me off actually drop me off on the ice shelf before the continent starts to my first point was kind of like the actual start. And so one hour, and I haven't even hit the real start. So when when I call her on the phone she's like because she knows the route. And she's like, well, how far are you from the first way point, which is where the actual start. And I'm like, it's point six three more. She's like it's half a mile thousand more to go get to the first Waypoint. You know? I was like, okay. Okay. So I, you know, rally myself got to the first way poi-, and then finally got in my tent that night and just kind of took a deep breath. I think I was just overwhelmed by the magnitude of it. I mean magin being a spec. Middle of Antarctica alone. These crazy temperatures, you know, all the excitement, but fears of the journey ahead and three hundred seventy five pounds on my back when the sleds when the snow is deep to loose snow makes three hundred seventy five pounds, even even heavier than if it's like light, icier consolidated, so. Yeah, it was it was a rough start to say the least did you do any sort of test run pull in the sled anywhere else. Yes. So the training element of it was pretty cool. So this I actually said a few other world records previous today's in the mountains and things we could talk about if you want. But the the last years I really committed to this project. I yet decided to start obviously start training specifically for this. I needed to put on about twenty pounds of muscle. I'm usually six foot one sixty five pretty lean. I'd raise trough lawn professionally for a number years and realize I needed to be a bit bigger presides gonna lose so much weight. And I found an amazing coach in Portland, Oregon where I live this guy named Mike mccaskill I don't know if you've ever heard of him. But I know you've had you've had David Goggin on your show, take it. So. So Mike actually surpassed David's poll up record Mike did five thousand eight hundred and four pole ups in twenty hours. I think Gog and said about four thousand which are both insane to me because I another thousand and he was Mike was wearing a thirty pound weight vest. Yes. Just to add insult injury. Mike mccaskill absolute absolute, legend so minute. Wait a minute. We just five thousand fucking champs with a weight fest on. Do ten. I'm right there with you like Pulitzer. I've got some other physicals Drake's, but the pull up department is not not my Strug sees fucking insane. Get this to just just because I got I got a big up by bad for a second. That's his fourth road right here. Also pulled f to fifty truck twenty miles across death valley. Harness. So I'm trying to look for the best guy to teach me how to pull heavy shame. Got the guy was like this is because of this people like that make you feel like such a pussy. As my great. The great thing about Mike, you know, big strong, Jack, dude. But like super soft spoken. She's like he's like, yeah. To this pope's, cool like so anyways, I wouldn't basically fucked with that record. So you could die and like come back to life and live a whole nother live, and no one's ever going to do it. Yeah. So anyways, my trading. He was he was the guy went to him train out of this Jimmy Portland where he trains out of. And he just he got me bigger. He got me stronger, but he also did all sorts of bad ass crazy stuff. I mean, there's a physical challenge. But it's more of a mental challenge anything. So he had me, you know, my hands in ice buckets doing planks to get my heart rate jacked up, and then he'd be like get out of the water, then I pull my hands out of the ice buckets do a seated squat against the wall. But then he would hand me Legos. And so my hands are frozen. My feeder and ice buckets now in a plank, my heart rates, you know, one ninety and he's like put this LEGO set together. So the dexterity of my fingers the mental acuity. There is got what a fucking savage this guy is. Yeah, he did that for veteran suicide. Yeah. Exactly. So he is really really important missions behind all of his projects. He calls them twelve labors over his life. He's trying to set twelve world records and various things people that are just digits designed different. Yeah. Yeah. So he's the man, but like this crazy training he came up with for me that was like the ice the water, the mental acuity all of this was like he was like, yo you're going to be an Antarctica. If your tent blows away when you're pulling up your debt, like the stakes are that high fifty sixty mph winds, absolutely crazy, sells you ever have an issue that you thought tent could blow away. I think I don't know. If you have there's a clip on my Instagram. I posted a few days ago of me of meat setting up the ten in minus eighty degrees out sixty mph winds. It's pretty gnarly. But yeah, I mean there was one time when the ten almost did blow me yet. There's this. There's one other one. This is me getting in the ten looking like an absolute disaster. What I get help with audio. But that's me. That's me. Well, you put ice eyelash massive storm. I just so hard to get the ten thousand enough. I was going to be able to get it up where I was going to have to just keep walking g. Now. Hopi these tant hold hold, man. Those really intense. How do you stay warm that? So it's average temperature is about minus twenty five minus thirty and Antarctica when the wind jacks up or if there's other me sending up the tap. If you get a chance to see that. It's you know, it's about Kimmy about minus eighty outside which it's hard to wrap your mind around that. But I've tried to put it in perspective by saying I could take a Cup of boiling water and throw it in an air. And immediately turns is like, that's that's that's the temperature would dealing with. Yeah. This is me trying to keep the tent poles together usually have someone else to hold onto it. But I'm alone. I'm completely alone out there. So this is struggling with my tent just trying to keep it up. I've got you know, tied down to my sled. They're just battling battling the winds and the state like I said the stakes are high if that blows away I don't have a spare ten I've got no extra weight in my my sled to hold spare stuff. So it's it's it's do or die quite literally in a moment like that of a patch kit. I had a couple of things repair to sewing kit. Ah a patch kit stuff like that. But if the ten itself or the temples depart pretty much and also you have to set up your tripod and film, and then press stop and go back and son in how you keep these batteries juiced up. You know, this is the film crew man that was following me around that right of the flat film group near the ice wall. The no it was basically I had to keep the batteries warned by keeping him read against my skin. So I keep the batteries right against my skin, my body, weight would keep it warm and the second I want to take it out. I pull it out real quick hit play. And then it would usually last a minute or enough to get a little clip or something like that. You couldn't just let it run. But then it would completely freeze even a full battery would be on zero battery by pretty quickly using solar panels to charge it. Yeah. So one crazy cool thing about Antarctica that time of year is it's twenty four hours a day late. And so the sun never set. So even when I'm on my ten in the middle of the night. I'm ask your plugs. A kind of pretend like it's nighttime, but twenty four hours a day light, so solar panels keeping everything charged cameras. Foam batteries, all that. And are you traveling with are you using GPS? Yeah. So how some way points the GPS way points that kind of led my path to the south, pole, etc. But mostly actually using a compass. So I look at my GPS maybe once every week or something like that because bearing the juice factor is actually just easier because so I actually had like a harness on front of me that would have my GPS or my compass kind of off my chest more or less because some of the cooks we saw the sun's out but actually more than half of the time. The clouds would come in. So be just complete and utter whiteout. I couldn't even see one step in front of me. And so I'd actually have to just stare down at my compass, keep it on this bearing and so imagine you can't see anything can't see one step in front of you. I'm pulling a three hundred pound sled twelve thirteen hours per day. Not listening to anything really can meet dead. Silence and just staring at this compass bearing all day long. So. Going crazy at all. I mean, the mental side of it was by far the most interesting side of it for me. You know, have a lifelong endurance athlete, but really kind of exploration into the mine is what it was for me. And I was curious about it so spending all this time in silence, I've done are you familiar with a positive meditation these gyms, so I've done a couple of these ten day silent meditation retreats before this which is ten days. No reading no writing. No, I contact kind of dove into that piece of it. But fifty four days alone Artika and complete silence. Was was next level of that for sure? Damn do that is so fucking impressive. Believe you did that now when you're looking down, and it's an utter whiteout, and you're looking at your compass, and you're dragging this shit behind you like a you doing anything in your mind. Are you saying songs, or are you what are you doing? There's a couple of different things. But really what ended up happening as I started to be able to trigger these flow states. So you know, as a lifelong professional athlete through different capacities in my life. I've tapped into that, you know, I was when I was a little kid. So swimming laps in a pool. Sometimes I would like kind of just tap into this timeless space where you know. Maybe thirty minutes would go by in in two minutes or something like that. But I never really knew how I got there. Just would sometimes tap into it. Sometimes not the zone flow state, whatever you wanna call that. But in an article, I went in with the store of attention about intention of exploring that space in my mind. And so as I got more and more into these whiteouts into these compass in staring at this, compass staring at this expansive landscape. I started to find ways to actually trigger that flow state in my mind. And so it got to the point where I could for several days at a time being this deep flow state. So you know, my day was about seventeen hours every day between getting up boiling, my water getting out of my tent and those crazy conditions packing. My sled dragging it for thirteen hours setting my tent up in these storms. But. Got into the sort of sequence of being so present with each step each next sequence that ended up being in this really timeless space Lewis place in my mind of true high-performance that was almost like the most deepest peaceful meditative state that I can possibly imagine. It was it was very profound beautiful to get there in my mind. Now, are you boiling this water in your tent like so my? So my jet boil so kind of different white gas fuel stoves, not the canisters where you could throw away but gas that you could refill the store, but a stove with fuel. Basically the way my tent was you saw the outer layer the tent there. There's actually an inner part. That's a tent so that there's a vestibule where basically there's snow inside the doorway but not outside outside. So I would shovel that snow from inside of the tent vestibule into my pot and build a melt the water that way drink about six liters of water every single day when I was out there. It's a lot of snow a lot of a few hours to melt that. But people don't realize this article is actually the largest desert in the world. So it's actually very dry. It doesn't snow very often. But when it does, of course, never melts and the south pole is at nine thousand three hundred feet. So not only am I in this desert, but I'm at altitude doing this thing. So. Did you train it out to to Jews like one of those tents to sleep in or? Yeah. So there's this gym that Mike, and I train out of it's called evolution healthcare and fitness in Portland. They actually have an altitude room there. So that it's not even a tent, but they actually have a full of full room where you can you know, got rowing machines. It's got treadmills. It's got all that simulated up to about fourteen thousand how big's room it's about four hundred square feet this big. I mean, it's not like huge like a proper room. I've been in some of those tents before when I was racing traffic on many years ago. A lot people are starting to sleep in those tents. But black people have a hard time in them. They get warm and stuff like that. No law fighters use them as well. But, but yeah, it was pretty cool to have a full room that you can actually, you know, be in and move in properly for just simulate someone that high intensity stuff. Yeah. And so it would take you hours every day to make your water. Yeah. I would say I was boiling water for about three or four hours per day. So about our two in the morning, our two in the evening. It takes a lot of energy to boil, you know, frozen snow. No when it's that cold out Santa Ida carry a lot of fuel that was the other really. I was gonna say that's like hundreds of hours of fuel. Yeah. So I took about. Seventeen liters of fuel. So that's why I've six Cowan's or something like that. How'd you know that that was going to be enough? I did surprise seeing beforehand. I in two thousand sixteen I did another world record project where I climb the tallest mountain on each of the seven continents seven summits as well. As went to the north and south pole, but much smaller polar expeditions a week basically crossing the last degree of latitude. And so in those expeditions also on Everest during that time to Nali, etc. All of that in one hundred thirty nine days, but I did that and that kind of helped me get a sense of it. But honestly, it was also best guest based on talking to people different experts in the field, you know, diving into that. But you never know is it going to be enough or too little I on the side of too much when you when when you finally got to the end how much do you have left? So my final push. I actually I woke up on the morning of Christmas Eve twenty four December this past year. And it looked was seventy seven miles from the finish. And I've been going at that point at the beginning of the trip was only going nine ten miles per day towards the end. I started going about twenty twenty five miles per day. So I. You know, what I'm about three days out? And then I thought to myself, maybe if I could push really hard these next two days, I could do it in two days like two fifteen plus our days like really get into it and started looking at my fuel and food supplies, and like they were pretty low had had enough you'll a few liters of fuel. But actually only had about a day or two food like real substantial food left until I woke up, and I was like all right. Let's go for this. And in the actually deepest talk about flow states that was the deepest flow state of my life. I woke up in one hour and that dates Christmas morning now I wake up and I'm just locked in. And I just came. I didn't tell anyone back home. Didn't tell my wife who is tracking me they had this GPS tracker where they could follow me. But I was just in my mind. I was like, you know, not not three days not two days. I'm going straight for it. And so I did a final thirty two hour continuous push on day. Fifty four seventy seven miles straight drag of my sled all the way to get to the finish line in one continuous push. No music. No, nothing. Just like in my head in this in this cr-. Flow state of high performance, and it was it was it was a crazy final push to get there. But made it right before the food and fuel ran out. Oh my God. And then there's there's no one there. Of course, you cross the finish line. You're done this. No, one in the world's ever done, this applause note on zero. And so what do you do when you get to the end? You said, hey, I'm done. Come get me. Yeah. Take for them to come get you. It took me a week to get out of Antarctica. Totally took actually me four days to get. But there's a crazy other component to this which is no one in the world had ever done this before. And like, I said a few really talented people. Some of the best explores in the world had tried recently one guy died and it just so happened. There's a really specific season when you can attempt this. But another guy was attempting this at the exact same time as me up British a British guy, who's a quivalent of a navy seal British special forces, the living most experienced guy in Antarctica, actually, pulled three thousand plus miles in an article now on various expeditions. And so we got dropped off one mile away from each other to begin this thing. And obviously, I was the first I did win this race head to head and at the finish line. I waited for him for a few days because I wanted to congratulate him because he did finish. But you can only imagine I would going back to that first hour house like it's possible. It was also like it's impossible. And both by the way. This navy seal. Dude, who knows more about Antarctica me, he's often going. I can see him in the distance just leaving me in the dust. Before shortly after day six I caught up to him. You know, I waved to him in this weird like passing of the torch moment like I was passing him. And then I never saw him again till I finished and I finished about seventy miles ahead of him about two and a half days ahead of them. For him. Agean got this motherfucker. I brought it home for America. Man. You know, we all. But still let's get a suck for him. Yeah. So I actually even though I finished in the first thing I could have kind kinda wanted to do. I haven't had had a shower. I haven't I actually to save weight. So I could get as much food and fuel my sled. Brought no extra clothes. No extra underwear like literally, no extra fare unaware after. So where are you shitting out there? Everyone wants to know this. Let's just get it on the table. I let you for asking. Basically I described that vestibule situation. So one side I cook in if the wind is calm. I get out of my tent dig a hole in, you know, go shit in a whole, basically. But when it's real windy like those storms. I just watch like you're gonna get frostbite. If you try to bend over pull your pants down when it's minus eighty right? So in the vestibule of my ten not the side, I'm cooking on. But the other side where I'm still inside covered. I dig a hole in there. That was my morning routine. Get up at six AM start boiling, my water at one side of my tent and knock glamour. It's not a pretty thing at debate. Actually to me this very cool. But also not glamorous within one degree of latitude of the south pole. So the last degree of eighty nine degrees style. Polls ninety degrees, basically, sixty nine miles or sixty nautical miles circumference around the south pole and article being as pristine as it is. They have all these laws about environmental conservation. Which to me is amazing being someone who just loves and great steward of the land. They actually say you can't even leave your human waste in holes. Here. Even though there's nobody out there. We want this to be completely protected area. And so yes, usually my sled was getting lighter most of the time because I was eating food everyday burning fuel, but in that last degree of latitude to the south pole and crossing it. I was shitting in a bag wrapping it up and putting it in my sled at having to carry it with me. So. Yeah. Disciplined. Something a lot of people have been like, yeah. Put it in a bed. You. Crazy assholes up there. Who cares if I dig shit up there? It was tempting, but you know, so I grew up in the going out in the outdoors, just as leave no trace principle that I, you know, I really love and in particular article one things about Antarctica. It's one of those places where magin you've traveled, far and wide and your life, and there's few place, at least in my mind where you just can't put it into words until you've stepped off there. And for me. This is my second time in an article on both times, you know, this big cargo ship, basically lands on the continent, and you get into smaller plan to get dropped off to where I needed to start on the edge of the continent. But both times stepping off the plane. I'm just sheeting green ear to ear on my face because I just like, oh, what is this place? Even the second time seeing it I felt the way I'd like my cheeks were sore 'cause I was just smiling. So big of just pristine beauty the blank canvas. The and you look out on the land and human footprints haven't touched ninety eight percent of the continent. Something like that. I mean, it's untouched and so shit in a bag if I had to do that to do my part to. But that way how many shit did you drag at the end it was about three used the bag. So. One per day for that section is about one hundred twenty miles. It took me I don't know a week or so to cover that distance. So yeah, added added weight to my sled rather than subtracting during that was the middle part of the journey right around the thirtieth and fortieth day. Now, how did you calculate your nutrition? So the nutrition journey was actually fascinating. And to be honest, in my opinion, people said, well, how come other people die trying to other people not be able to do it? Because one other guy ran out of food. And so when I was looking at this journey we again, we're calling it the impossible. I like how am I going to make the impossible possible? And I thought that the nutrition piece of it was going to be huge. I actually my dad's organic farmer in Hawaii like whole food health nutrition's been a big part of my personal journey. And so I found a company that was really in it with me. So this company called standard process their whole food supplement company really involved in chiropractic acupuncture, and they I presented them with this. And I said, hey, what do you guys think? Like is there a way to like figure this out, and they're like, well, we have? Twenty of the top doctors, nutritionists food scientists, you know on our staff and this innovation center around nutrition like come in the lab with us. And so they'd never done this with an athlete before. But they were intrigued, and so I actually went and did a years long worth of one hundred plus blood tests, veto, two max test, all this fitness testing, all around my physiology. And they created a custom food solution as a bar form essentially called the column bar that was all whole food ingredients. It was no chemical rivers or anything. It was coconut oil seeds nuts, all these different pieces of macronutrients as well as micronutrient blends that I needed, but custom tailored to my physiology. And that's what I I mean that was the bulk of what I seven thousand calories per day. I was burning ten thousand so even at seven thousand I was losing about a pound of day away of wait almost to my body's. That's why I needed to get bigger. But these column bars just burned super efficiently in my body. Like, it was the perfect blend of everything. So eating the same thing every single day. Fifty four days might have gotten a little bit boring, but my body. It was actually pretty dialed in. Now when they did this, and they they made these custom bars for you. Did they know how I mean? How did you know how many calories you're going to be burning while you're pulling this three hundred pound sled was a dependent upon the conditions. Like, if the the snow was more packed or icy difficult if it was sm- soft right one hundred percent. So I mean, we had to use our guests. Honestly, we had to say let us our best. Guess I said a bunch of mart people smarter than me. We're in this room. All these doctors these PHD's around this, and we had to make some assumptions, and ultimately, they're like, okay. You're going to burn ten thousand calories. Let's get you ten thousand calories in these bars. And we started running away on the sled, and we're like that'll be five hundred pounds sled like we can't carry that. So it's this equation of like can you make this lead lead enough to poll if we can get the nutrition right how efficiently does that burn your body? How much can your stomach absorb you're hungry, the whole time, more or less? Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. I was I was ready for a big fucking meal. Got dessert. For which was the first thing you this. The first thing I eight when I got back was a big burger, but you might call me lame for saying this, but I'm just going to say because it's the truth. What I crave with salad, man. What I crave was something. Because I you know what I mean. You know, what I mean like this freeze dried field it's chunk of column bar, which got me through. But it was like something green and alive until I big south like avocado. It's out. I had a big burger too. But then of course, I eat my stomach is shrunk right eight this big meal, and I'm like, oh, my stomach hurts. But mostly I was like I'm back in the real world, baby. So it was like it was everything I could get my hands. I went to a buffet just like my stomach was hurting. But I was like I'm not gonna stop just starting to like, whatever croissants, and Fred all the things. So. Imagine your body would like probably craving all that life like live things green exactly which to Bols and it route. It's weird to say. I mean, like, I'm from Portland, Oregon pretty green part of the world up there in the Pacific northwest. And so not even just the food component. But there's nothing alive. There's no animals on the coast are, but like in the interior and unsee any animals NC a bird? I didn't see, you know, nothing. Right. And so not only I think as humans. We're kind of wired to see things living. I mean, even here in LA but of concrete jungle, but like you see trees on the street. He sees the ocean. Yeah. Whatever that's what a Nazi anything alive for fifty four days. It was like, wow, I want to smell trees fresh air of the trees, I want to eat a salad. I don't know. That's where Mike my mind. Got to is kind of coming back to reality in that way, man. So when they're constructing these bars for you, and this is all based on your body. And like what burns well with you. How? How do they like in terms of like how many ca- what's the best food in terms of weight versus calories? And is there some foods that are heavier, but don't have as many calories. Yeah. So I think I'm gonna get the numbers pretty close to right here. But I think per hour fat, of course, of the macronutrients we got protein fat and carbs right fat is the most calorie dense of them all you have to make sure these things don't free solid that was one of the it was minus twenty five in my sled every single day. So it had to actually be edible while frozen essentially because it would be too hard to rewarm them because this was the food. I was eating outside of my sled. So with actually frozen to frozen too. But actually where we where the work around happened where they kind of their mastermind was there like you actually need this macronutrients lend to be about forty or forty five percent fats because I needed high fat food, you know, to stay alive out there. And so they basically pumped it full of coconut oil, which ultimately, you know, does have you see coconut oil on the shelf. It's not a liquid. It's. A solid, but it doesn't freeze like rock solid. So having that much coconut oil on allowed it to we actually had to get shipped down frozen. Because if it didn't freeze it got it actually kind of got like flat. And so they put it in these freeze dried packs shipped down to Chile how to do this customs thing to import it. It was like a whole like crazy, logistical mess. But got that done and it actually held up. So that it was enough fat in there that I could actually bite off chunks of this rather than, you know, there's plenty of stories guys, these coal places break and teeth on cliff bars and things like that. So the column bars were were at good good while frozen. Breaking ground. Sean. So it's mostly like a lot of fats and seeds and nuts. And then the other thing is that they said their bread and butter at this company standard process processes there a supplement company, so but it's a whole food derivative. So organic farm, basically, a vitamins, and so they actually intermixed like probiotics and magnesium, and like beat extract and all these sort of plant to riveted is a well to give me the fighter nutrients, I need. That's not giving me the calories. But that's giving me the, and I stayed healthy the whole time mean I got super worn down. I got super skinny all that kind of stuff, but I actually stayed the unite ever got sick, you know, healthy those my other question like what was the plan? If you did get sick. We'll just wait it out in the tent. Wait it out in the tent. You know, there's there isn't in contact with anything though. Right. So I had I had a couple of things one is I had my GPS which has paying the satellite every ten, but I mean is life form. So no, no bugs. No, no. Yes. So yes. All right. Yeah. So that part of it. There's nothing out there. So basically, if you get a bacteria you've brought it out there. So they actually idea was more or less to get out there healthy rather than you can stay pretty healthy in terms of bacteria and stuff. Of course, you can get pretty worn down and sick in the cold. Or like symptom at any fires that you have is something you had when you land. Exactly. Because there's I mean, there's nothing out there are you were you concerned about that. Because like, I would imagine the anticipation leading up to it as a little stressful, and sometimes your immune system can get run down. Oh one hundred percent. You know? Of course, it it's fun to recount the epic parts of these journeys or my other world records coming Everest or the summit day or this push or whatever. But anything that's this long duration. This was fifty four days the world record didn't two thousand six hundred thirty nine days like the boring answer is like how did you do it? It's like well like I washed my hands, really good. When I went to the airport, and I didn't eat this food off the street, and, you know, staying healthy. You can't get that. Right. You know, it doesn't matter. You know, imagine. You're on the flight headed out there and some dude next to you sneezing. Yeah. Oh, mother fucker. There's a couple of times when I raise trough for many years a guy. I raced in something like twenty five countries over the world different places. And there are three or four times. I remember like remember one time I flew to the Philippines place called Subic Bay gearing up for this big race. And sure enough the night before the race just like diarrhea like crazy puke in my brains out. So I jump into jeopardy the swim swim in the ocean. You know, it's a milestone feeling like shit. But I'm like I'm going to try flew all the Philippines like I gotta do this race. You know? Sure. Enough on the bike. I get on my bike, and my bike the bike course right next to my hotel, and I just had no power. And I was like, Yep. I'm turning out in the Filipino guys. Like, no. You're going the wrong way. The course. And I was like, Nope. I'm going to my hotel room to shit, some more so. Yeah. One one bad burrito. One bed. This can ruin you know, any performance. I mean rea- while you're pulling the three hundred sixty five pounds sledding Arctic. Oh my gosh. Not a pretty well. But that is not a pretty plus with the one pair of underwear that gets even. So get Dan healthy was was super key to all of this. But you know, all things considered. I mean, my body, of course, got banged up some, but like I came out relatively healthy. And I think the food nutrition was a key part of that. Oh, it has to be. It sounds like you really did it wisely. Like you. I mean, that's so cool that you had that company behind you that organized the premise nation mission. Yeah. Yeah. Good Lord, man. Now, you're trying to put fat on before you left as well as muscle. Yes. So with Mike, you know, the goal was to put, you know, put about ten to fifteen pounds of muscle on. And then another five pounds of fat on top of that just knowing that total was twenty pounds total, but you know, between fat and the last the last few weeks, I was basically been lifted gotten strong and all this didn't wanna wear myself out too much. You know, stressing my muscles because I was about to go under go this. And it was where I was just putting calories inside eat dinner. And then Jenna, and my wife would be like what are you gonna have to make Chevy sitting there eating like a pint of coconut. Bliss ice cream. Whatever was put in calories into just to put some out on there. Because that's just burned off me immediately. I mean, it was gone. So so you must have been shredded by the time it was over. Yeah. I I was pretty that. There's actually out of your pulled up. There's a photo Instagram. That's got shows a little bit of the before and after body shot. But I yeah. I was I was very lean. But it was honestly was also scary. Like in the end. I think I held up pretty well. But you're out there by yourself. You've got no context. And so I started looking down at my legs halfway through this journey there. I'm so before and after not that much of a difference. Yeah. It's a little the light. You definitely look a lot more lean more not even say a lot more lean. Yeah. So it's about twenty pounds different. But my mind's played tricks on me more than anything. I looked down at my waist about halfway through. And I was like holy shit. Like, I'm falling apart ear, and I actually started getting in my own head about losing too much weight on my non when I when I actually weighed myself afterwards like twenty pounds like we thought it could have been as. Much as forty pounds. So, you know, only losing twenty pounds all things considered. Like, you said, I don't look that. I other than that. Really cool beer that I grew. So you were ready to get gaunt. Yeah. I mean, we we have planned for that. We have planned for that. And like I said I started out. I started about one sixty five I put myself up to one eighty five to leave and finished at one six five. It's actually finished way more near my sort of natural fairly lean weight for my height perfect plan. But there's there's play things wrong. But. That's kind of planned out for things going wrong. Yeah. I mean, I'm product this. This was one one as a solo effort. I mean, I was out there by myself walking across this. But this was a massive team effort from these guys getting behind me all these doctors, you know, all the different people have supporting me, my, you know, my wife, and then what she does with all the media, and our nonprofit, and is the Benny things a lot of pieces go into making this thing happen. So the team effort for sure big time that is so amazing now at the end you get there, you're done. But there's no one there. So what do you do you make a phone call? Yeah. I'm done. Come me. They know where you are. Because they're tracking. You're right. Yeah. So what was kind of crazy was that crazy last push? Right. It's thirty two hour nonstop push till the end. And so what happened is it's Christmas day when I start this push. And so my whole family. I'm actually I five older sisters big family. I'm the I'm the baby of the bunch and they're all together in hood river, Oregon at my sister's house. And they're thinking cool Collins like getting close end of his project will track him. And everyday they tracked me on my GPS, ping, the satellites every ten minutes, people, all my Instagram followers. Anyone could actually follow the progress in real time. And they were used to seeing me stop at about twelve twelve hours into the day. So twelve hours into the day happens, and they're like, okay. Maybe he's going another hour thirteen hours, fourteen hours, fifteen hours. They're like what's going on sixteen hours, my whole family's not normally together, but they're all together because it's Christmas day finally eighteen hours into this push. I finally stop and pedaled away point. Because what happened was I ran out of water. Even though I said, I'm not stopping I was like I only had three liters of water after eighteen hours. I need more water. So at least have to put my tent up to boil water inside both. So what I do. It's now midnight. I started six AM. It's now midnight. I'm going eighteen hours. A midnight in Antarctica is with the times when I was staying on was seven PM on the west coast. So it's Christmas dinner. I finally call in. It's my mom. My sister, my wife like everyone's on the phone. They're like, oh my God. You did forty seven miles today. That's your best buy like fifteen miles. Credible. And I was like, no, I'm not stopping. I'm actually just boiling water for an hour to continue back out for another like, fourteen hours, a finish this thing. They're like what the weather must be really good. Wow. You're feeling so good. And I was like I was like actually it's the worst weather of the entire trip because this massive ground blizzard like like our sixteen in this push. It was nice just this ground blizzard. Which is it's not actually snowing, but it feels like it's knowing because it's so winning that the snow is blowing around everywhere, but I was locked in such deep flow state, in my mind, even setting my tent up in this crazy storm even getting inside eighteen our push. I was just like, Nope. I've got this. And it felt like for me when I reflect on that moment. Jenna even says, she talked to me every night, and there's some crying there's to me having doubts ups and downs to this whole thing. She was like, you sounded the most lucid I've ever heard you. And she's watched me high performance or things she was like you were locked in. And so instead of going like, maybe you should sleep and get some Russia's like I trust you. I believe you like go for it. She could just hear in my voice. And it was a crazy thing. And it for me, you know, I'm thirty three years old now, and it really felt like a culminating of my entire life in a lotta ways like from the swim practices as a little kid too. Burn this crazy fire that overcame talking about that if you want I, you know, race traffic won't professionally all of these moments life, the meditation practice, the the family the support they like all of these things were stacking on each other to kind of lead to this final culminating moment, and I had to pull on lessons from each phase of my life to be that locked in. But I found myself just, you know, going in that moment in that flow state being able to get up out of our eighteen and say to them, actually, I'm going back out in this crazy ground blizzard. I got another fourteen hours to go to finish this thing. And so that was thirty two hours and seventy seven miles later the final push to the end. Now, what did you wear in terms of like a base layer? We was era concerned about you sweating while you're pulling all that weight, especially initially when it was three hundred seventy five pounds. Yeah. So, you know, one of the famous lines that people who have been in the polar environments will say is if you sweat you die, and you know, maybe a little bit of hyperbole, but it's not far from the truth. Which is you start sweating and you stop. For even thirty seconds. Your clothes are literally freezing to your body. And so it was this crazy kind of kind of balance of being able to pull this lead get your heart rate elevated enough to keep your body warm, but not to warm that you were sweating. And so any second. I would start sweating. I I would strip layers off. So there was times especially when there was no win. It's still be ambient temperature minus twenty miles twenty-five. But I would just have like a thin Gortex jacket on and one base layer. That's it. I mean we wear in Marino. I marino. Actually, it was my skin. Although it's really good. But for me, I'm a little bit allergic to it. So I work synthetic fabric. They have a synthetic that completely mimics Marino in terms of the way when it's moist. He's still stay warm ESO more, marina, honestly Marino is amazing fabric for that reason. Unfortunately, for me like I said, it just tastes so funny that you could suffer can't have. Maybe feel that the, but so I just Dedic, but it was crazy using like what what what I was using mountain hardware base layers, and then actually my outer layers, just Norwegian company called Bergens of Norway. They don't sponsor me. But they actually believe it or not the Norwegians note thing or two about being in the polar environment. So they've designed a really good jacket, and pant that sexually really pre the bull and really good. And then I su- sowed a for rough onto the edge. So wolf a wolf for rough on the outer side of the thing is wolf via Wolfer will Wolfer thought you were saying wool wells, like it sounds like wolf, you know, more about this than me. I'm not the album of know your audience. I've I have not a big hunter myself. I've never never done that a lot of that. But yeah, so Wolfer, well, they know how to survive in the cold. Yeah. Exactly. So the base layer is a synthetic what what is the material that. It's made out of the base layer is yeah, it's it's a synthetic like a poly polypropylene. It when it's what's it dries quickly. Yeah. Drives quickly. But the idea was just to knock it wet. So basically strip down as much as possible. But like literally I'd go from that. And then of course, I needed to eat and drink every whatever thirty minutes or whatever actually more like every hour. So I'd stop. So I'd stop in the front of my slap. I had a huge puffy down, Jack like a massive like Michelin man, huge Buffy down jacket. So even if you're stopping for a minute to drink water before even trying to do that boom put the big jacket on because none no cold. How cold you can get immediately from stopping. I mean, it's just so much colder than when pulling the sled your heart rate stays up and keeps you pretty warm like your your hands and your feet to they'll be a real issue. Right. The small digits. Yeah. I mean, frost-bites real for sure hands outside of the gloves. That's why some of the stuff. I was doing the training of getting my hands with the dexterity. You know, you have to tile these knots with big gloves mittens on you can't take your gloves off for any sizeable period of time. If you look back on a lot of my photos, I've actually got tape on my face over cross my nose. And that's because I started getting tiny little bits of frostbite on the bottom of my nose, and on on my cheeks because I'd wear a full face mask buff everything, but even you know, tiny little one, you know, needle prick of wind on your face throughout the day in that cold it's going to turn into a cold injury. And so I started getting few cold injuries on my face nothing. You know, too bad. You're looking Greece your face up or anything like mostly the tape, and then had a little bit of like Vassily, and like chapstick type Asaf on some of the batter's the one thing actually that I did that I'd never done before would actually worked while. I was a tip that I got which is my fingers started cracking really really bad from the cold. And so they were like really painful and actually was point putting super glue into all of those basically little micro cuts on my fingers, which when someone told me that as a trick. I was like really, but turns out it's actually really good trick. So it's super glowing these cuts on my fingers back together. And that actually worked reasonably well all things all things considered is the operative word. But. Yeah. Wow. So you're wearing the what about your eyes? So I'm wearing I'm wearing goggles. But funny enough, you know, I had a couple of fancier nicer ski goggles with me. But yeah, there's the tape on my face right there. But but yeah, that's actually just like the normal KT tape like a physio tape that z like athletes wearing and I just had it in my repair kit. It wasn't meant for this purpose. But I was like what do I have that? I could put on my face to block it a little bit better. But I had those goggles on some of the time, but actually goggle that I wore the most was one that you'd might use for motocross because it has like a plastic face mask over the front of it because the wind when it was blowing it would just kind of blow around. So sometimes I had this fleece tripped over my face, but a blow to much and so I had this more plastic face mask gas. So that that's the that's when you can see lookout frozen frozen. It is on the inside. So. Oh, my God man there, and then like this neoprene mask underneath. So I had like double facemask double tape like anything to keep me. Keep me more suspected that. It was so high above sea level there. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got whatever it is nine thousand three hundred feet at the south pole. So it's basically just elevated ground, but it seems flat. Right. But he I started at sea level. I'm not only am going up hill all the way to the south of I forty seven days. I pulled that sled up hill completely sell. It was me out. Think freaks me out? Yeah. When you were freaking out an hour in and you hadn't even actually hit land yet. What what thoughts we're going through your head? Like, we think in man, I need to get someone fuck and rescue me. I mean, it definitely you know, that was a doubt. This is on Everest different. We'll get to this. We get to this. Yeah. The you're always going through my head was was these moments doubt for sure, but one of the things for me, you know, to be honest with these projects that I've created I love I love pushing my own limits. I love I love finding the edges of my own potential all that kind of stuff. But I also now really enjoy building projects that I can share with other people. I do I just nonprofit work where there's thirty thousand school kids tuning into this project and using this as curriculum in their classrooms to learn about climate change to learn about weather atmosphere pressure, that's really cool project like that. And then just sharing it with the world at large people going like this is impossible. I mean, how many guys do you know that was like one day, I'm going to do this thing. But they never do it. Right. And so actually going after that and sharing it away with like, you might not want to walk across an article. But like, you probably have some hope or some dream or some goal that you want accomplish in your life like fucking go and do it like get after it. And so for me doing this. It's funny. I've started to think of myself less as an athlete and actually more of an artist, and my canvas really is just endurance sports. But creating these art projects in the world that I can create and share with people through story. Telling hopefully, inspire them do that. So what was I thinking in that first hour was you know, I I don't want my art project to blow up right in my face, but more. So there was this was bigger than myself. And that's really what kept me going forward. It's like I can't let these kids in these public school classrooms that I would after the first now we're like these other people that are driving inspiration from this. Hopefully, like, I want to do this for this larger purpose. And honestly, that's that's what really kept me going forward through the really hard time. So that that connection to a larger purpose of what I wanna put out in the world and that ripple effect the positivity. That's awesome. And then of course, you have a giant team that prepared in you know, let them down. Yeah. You know, it's it's it's a lot lock goes into it. So get get into that get into that starting line and having that doubt. But I think I mean on one level. It's also it's a humanum. It's easy for me to come in here and tell the story like, you know, what Joe like, I'm the biggest bad ass in the world. No one's walked across Arctic on like, I did it even though these people died trying whatever like those are the facts of the situation, but the truth is man, like, I'm Hugh. Even like, I have the wave of human emotions, I've figured out how to tap into my mind and a way to do these things. But like, I still experience fear. I steer feeling spurious. Dow, I still experience the ups and downs. But I have a way of actually being able to report purpose a refocus that energy into positive forward momentum. I think that's what the difference is. But I believe all of us all of us humans have the capacity to do this. Like, you're looking at me. I'm like a pretty like regular like size law regular looking guy. But I think you know, the muscle between my years is what separates the difference in loud me to do this more than anything. You don't seem to have the darkness that. I usually see people that do things like this. Do you know what I'm saying this? I've met a bunch of people who have done some fucked up things, and they all have some weird darkness. Yeah. You know? I hear what you're saying. I think for me there's a lot of this strength comes from a dark moment in my life. You know, right after college I was traveling around the world that I had no money as a kid growing up, you know, working class background painted houses every summer but always dreamed of traveling the world. So I was like one day I'm going to travel the world. So I finished college. Buddies, a minor getting real jobs and whatever Wall Street and things like that. And I was like, you know, I saved up ten thousand dollars over the past six years. I'm gonna take a surfboard in a backpack and like go see the world of my life savings. And so, you know, I went do that. I'm twenty one years old. You know, go to Fiji I served through Estrella hitchhike through New Zealand ended up in Thailand and Europe into time. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. So you're familiar with how much fire and fire, dancing, and various crazy departures things that happen over there. So I'm gonna beach in rural Thailand, and I decided to jump this flaming jump rope. And unfortunately, it goes terribly wrong. For me. The rope wraps around my legs and nights my entire by body on fire to my neck in an instant my life change. Fortunately for me the water's edge. The ocean was ten steps away. So kind of instinct takes over and I dive into the ocean, which extinguish the flames my body's on fire to my neck, but not before about twenty five percent of my body is severely severely burned. So my clothes were on fire. But mostly we got severely burned was my legs and feet. And so I'm gonna place I wanna beach. There's there's no hospital in this. I'm on an island. There's no hospital instead of an ambulance ride. I'm on the back of a moped driving down a dirt path. I'm in a one room nursing sage literally like the size of the room. We're sitting in there like this is our sort of hospital. It's like one bed, and I'm just completely devastated. And so they put me under eight surgeries over the next week. In the middle of nowhere rural Thailand hate surgeries in a tiny little shack. Yeah. And the basically there's a cat running around my bed every time I come out of their quote, unquote, ICU, there's a cat running around my bed and across my chest. And the doctors are literally saying to me, you know, in in the broken English is they're saying, hey, you'll probably never walk. Get normally like you probably never gonna walk again normally. Yeah. There's a photo of that. I think if you click over on on that to the second one actually shows there, there's what the legs. So you know, I was not that photo there with those legs. That's actually eight weeks after I was burned. So that believe it or not that's like it's starting to look a little bit better all things considered there. So as you can probably imagine I mean, just the darkest time in my life. I've been you know, an app I swam through college thought of myself as physically active person, and here, I am like doctors saying, hey, you know, twenty two year old kid like you'll never walk normally. And to me, they're hero in this story. Which is maybe why you don't see the darkness in my eyes. And it's more the light. But you know, my mother is really the the heroine of this tale, which is she she arrived at my bedside around day. Five flies all the way. Over to Thailand finds me are you? Are you paranoid? You have kids. Yeah. I don't have kids yet. But I can only imagine as a parent what it's like to walk into a hospital room and see your kid halfway around the world and this state nothing you can do and she admits now. That she was crying in the hallways pleading with the doctors for good news. Like he's going to be. All right, right. He's gonna walk. She's crying every time. She walked into my hospital room. She walked in with a smile on her face and this air of positive being like, okay, call them like this is bad. Like what you wanna do when you get out of here. Let's set a goal like let's get out of here and do something positive, and I'm like mom. Are you crazy like the doctors say I'm never going to walk again. Normally like, my life is I know it is over, you know, this and this really dark place in my mind, but she just kept at me day after day with his positively does that and I finally close my eyes, and I just pictured like what what am I going to be and I close my eyes and I had this visualization myself crossing triathlon finish line, which is not something ever done before. I swam in college, but never bike to run competitively nothing. But I was like, you know, what the able bodied me sometime in the future is going to be not only walking again but doing a traffic on race. And so I said it's where I said my goals Orissa triathlon one day and instead of her looking at me going like I said set a goal, but maybe something more real. It's take doesn't require you to be. Running. She was like great. Let's learn about it pulls out her, computer. And just literally start reading me like trough lawn races or this. There's far this distances. Like, I didn't I knew nothing about the sport other. They're just like pop into my mind is something I thought maybe wanted to do. And so that's what I focus. I literally have this photo of me with tide. Doctor. I'm you know, my legs are bandaged to my waist and the tide doctors like looking at crazy, but I'm lifting these like ten pound barbells my aunt going. I'm training for a triathlon. Now, the guys like you're in Thailand in a hospital, and I'm telling you, you're never going to walk normally. And so, you know, flash forward terrip, three months. I finally get released from this Tahoe Spital full. Yeah. Yeah. And when I got released I still hadn't walked, you know, I'm in. I'm in a wheelchair. I got carried on and off the flight back to Portland, Oregon land back home and still still bandaged up. And my mom says may wake up the first morning back in my parents house. My mother's kitchen the house, I grew up in and she looks at me, and she goes all right calling. Now, you've got this big travel on goal. But today your goal is to take your very first step. And so she actually grabs a chair from our kitchen table and place that one step in front of my wheelchair. And she says today, you need to somehow figure out how to get out of that wheelchair. Take one step and step into the. Chair in front of you. And I'm looking at it like, I don't know if this is possible, but three hours later four as later, I'm still staring at this chair. And I finally work up the courage and strength to get out of this wheelchair. Take the one step and get into that chair in front of me. And is the problem because of the burnt skin. It's not flexible, you can't move it and bend it. Now. It's a good question. So basically, what happened with the burn burn me so deep that two things happened one is there was ligament damage so ligament damage to my ankles and knee joints. And then the way that the he the scarring in the skin is healing, essentially over these mobile joint. They don't think I'm going to regain full flexibility at full range of motion, essentially in my leg. So they're not saying you'll never walk as and you won't be able to stand up at all. Although that was like extremely painful, but they just didn't think it'd be imagine walking around without being able to bend, your knees your ankles, full mobility. So there's just like you're not going to be able to have that back, basically. So sure enough I take that first step getting that chair the next day. My mom doesn't take it easy on me. She just moved his chair five stiffs away the next day. Ten steps away every day a few more steps of not to go on and on. But basically eighteen months after getting released from that hospital. I find myself in Chicago, I finally took a job in finance to trying to get out of my parents basement like get on with my life twenty years. Like, yeah. I gotta get like a real job. Get my parents basement, you know, move to Chicago take job in finance and try to get my shit together. Basically. And I honored that go said, you know, what I'm going to sign up for the Chicago triathlon. I live here now. Join a local gym knew nothing about the sport. Still. I'm like asking random guys at the gym like anybody here race a triathlon. Like, I'm going to spin class. Like, how do you like like how do you like take your shoes off and run afterwards? Teddy like like, how does even work like ask these questions and sure enough through that process? I like trained at this gym sign up for the Chicago traffic on ended up racing the race cross the finish line and to my complete and other surprise. I didn't just finish the race. But actually won the entire Chicago traffic lumping four thousand other people coming first place. So I never, wow how what kind of training. Did you do to prepare for the? I mean, like I said, I you know, I had been a collegiate swimmer. So as a division swimmer swam at Yale University. But then, you know, the biking and running was completely new to me show, you how to do it or just start running and biking. Yeah. I literally walked into the spin class. Like, it's not like I didn't actually ride a bike. So I went to the spin class and start like meta guy. And he was like, oh I've done one triathlon before. And he's like I can who. So he took me out on a couple of brides with his buddies. I had this like steel frame bike. I didn't know all these carbon wheels and aero helm in all these fancy like triathlon type of things like didn't know much about it and literally for a summer just kind of like asked people some questions this and what's funny about trough on. I dunno out familiar with the sport. But in in a race like the Chicago travel and there's four more than four thousand participants. And so unlike marathon where everyone just starts at the same time you actually have to. Start in waves like one hundred people every five minutes, and I was the thirty ninth wave of fifty three. And so I'd I've into Lake Michigan. And there's people that already started like two hours before me. And there's people starting two hours after me. And so when I finished the race, I swim I bike. I run the Olympic distance travel. And so as a mile swim twenty five miles by six point two mile run across the finish line. I don't still know won the race. Because like people started before me people started after me, and they take the cumulative time at the end. And so I like my grandma's there because she lives in Chicago like gives me a big hug. I'm so proud of you you were able to walk again, and who you are finishing triathlon. Let's go get lunch. And so I grabbed my wetsuit and my bike my grandma, and I sit down to have lunch and as we're walking back to the car. She's like do you want to see like what place you came in your age group? And I was like sure like that would be cool. Like, let's go see how I did we wander over the scores table and the guys like I'm like, oh, I'm trying to figure out. What's your name was like, oh, I'm calling o'brady? Like we've been calling your name over the loudspeaker for last twenty minutes. I'm like, oh, why did I do something wrong? And they're like. You won like like my age group. And they're like, no you won like the whole race was just this real so real moment of via life. I it was it was wild. But it for me in that moment. What I thought back and was like it was cool to Pat myself on the back shit. Like, I just did this crazy thing, but it was more. So going back to your initial question about the darkness versus the light. At least in my journey was I was like, wow. Like, this was a sliding doors moment like what had happened? Have my mom not come in with this air of positivity enforcement to set this tangible goal like I'm certain my life would be nowhere where it was today. But then it's not I wasn't like, oh, well, I'm some superhuman freak that can do these things I was like well humans all of us. We all have these reservoirs of untapped potential inside of us and can achieve extraordinary things. And we set our minds to it. And so what it did for me is just sparked this curiosity like what else can I do if I set my mind to it. So sure enough it was a Sunday. When I raised his Chicago traffic on coincidentally met who became a huge mentor. Influence my life that afternoon a guy named Bryan Gelber who ended up being my first sponsor, and he said to me you on the Chicago traffic on a day to think you should maybe do something about that. And I was like, yeah. But I've got a job, and I don't have any money like I would need sponsors. Like, he's like, I'll be your first sponsor if it's something you want to take seriously. And so literally that was on a Sunday Monday morning. I walk in and quit much. Immediately at two weeks later, I'm living in Australia. Trading traffic on full-time and ended up racing travel and professionally for the US national team, you know, all over the world for the next six years. So. It was a story moment. What what happened alternately with the injuries sustained from the fire. You know, all things that was so that was January fourteenth two thousand eight. So it's a just over eleven years ago now, and I you know, I ultimately have been pretty alright I mean, I've got some scars, but it's pretty faint was able to gain back most of the full flexibility in my legs. If you look at my left foot is where the worst worst burns that were rope religious like sat on my foot for a long time must have that's still pretty thick with scar tissue. You know, when I'm in the mountains when I'm in places like climbing Mount Everest like I did like point across an article the things I have to be really aware because my skin regulates heat not in the best way. He in cold. It's still just like not like normal. Scanners the scar tissue the scar tissue. Just is just carries. The heat a little bit different for some reason. I guess I don't know exactly why not as poorest because not as poor over exactly. And the actually in the early days for the first five years. I don't get this. Often anymore. But in the I literally five years of this. If I bumped my legs until like a table or someone just, you know, bumped a chair in a means nothing lightly. I would usually get a little cut there. So just super fragile. It's almost like, you know, glass skin kind of was not the same sort of flexibility that you normally have, but you know, ten eleven years on now, I would say it's pretty much a hundred percent. I mean, the things I've done with my legs and body in the last ten years. I think prove at least that the my body's doing alright. So I feel extremely extremely fortunate to have recovered as well as I did. And, you know, more than anything I test that to of course, the the physical ability for my body to recover in the way it did. But I think that at least for me started with the mind started with that, positively of my mother, and and the duration of the many different things I've done done since then. And you said you sustained ligament damage to your joints, and your knees. Yeah. Yeah. So there's basically again, I'm not a my on, my anatomy, I have other skills. My full anatomy is not a doctor. Let's put it that way. But yeah, basically, the lingam is particular on the back of my knees. So I don't know exactly what that ligament. Has that goes through through there, but that was really jammed up with the scar tissue. So I wasn't able for a long time to fully bend, my knees inflexible and the full way and the same thing in the ankles. Whatever that ligament is that goes where if basically try not not your achilles with the other side of of your foot, basically that part was just so much scar tissue had formed away, the skin was healing around that and from the damage to ligaments, it wasn't sort of being able to fluidly flex in the way that you normally would see a foot so full imagine point might be on a point your foot. Basically, if you're putting your leg forward out, you know, back like kick like that. So yeah. For a long time, and it was kind of a so it's kind of like dragging my feet around that first year. And so did you have to just push through the scar tissue and break it up. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of obviously PT a lot of songs massage. I'll tell you what I have thought of the story. They log time of every told the story, actually. But so when I got burnt I've been traveling by myself in Thailand or around the world, but actually met up with my childhood best friend name's David Boyer who actually re married my sister. And they have two kids so much out of best friend turned into my brother-in-law, which is extremely fun. But anyways, he had been he had actually been with me when I got burnt. So those first five days in the hospital before my mom got there. He was with me. And it was it was a Saint, you know, we're both these scared little twenty two year old kids, and he's like trying to do his best to look after me. And he's freaked out when I get back to Portland, his mother who was kind of a second mother for me growing up names Cape where she obviously was like, wow. This could have been my son just as he's had been, you know, her son, you know, kind of felt like protective of me. So she comes over to my house one day. And she goes, you know, I've been doing some untraditional healing work. Would you be open to that? And at this point was like, I'll take anything what do you mind, and she was like well. I've been working with this product healing shaman. Do you want to want to check that out? And I literally was like I was like saying yes to everything at this point. Like, I'm looking for any way to recover. And I was like, well, what is she was like, well, they don't even touch you. It's just light healing. And so I go to this basement import land. And I meet this this guy, and he's sitting there with a bucket of salt in front of him. And he starts he doesn't touch me at all. He's just like waving his hands in front of like my body, and my heart, and then he's like looking really intensely at my foot. And I sit there for like an hour. I never touches me. Nothing. Just like looking at me waving his hand in this. And and he's like, okay, I'm done now. And I'm like, okay. What did you do? And he was Tom opened up. This shocker I opened up that I did this. But what I mostly did was I put this force field of light light of foot, and I'm like up pretty down with some traditional stuff. But I was kind of like cool like Manx appreciate it. He's doing and I was like what's this bucket? And he was like this is the salt bucket that takes the negative energy. Away from your foot in your leg and puts the negative energy in there as I'm bringing in this light and says this product healing. He's like so you have this light blue force field over your left foot right now. Which was the worst burn part of my body. I he goes I would recommend not showering for the next couple of days as you might wash up the force field. So jails again. So I tell this story with the total smile cheeky smile on my face because that's probably have it thought it was a long time. But I will say this the next day. I walked further than I had the rest of the time. So you want to call that placebo? You want to call it whatever I emotionally wasn't fully bought in on the product feeling like I said, I am into very a lot of alternative modalities. Gotta wish it was true. So I'm middle at wants. When she does Rakia healing. Yeah. She kind of rubbed a hands together. And waved him in front of me. I'm like, what are you doing? She's like do you feel that on my don't feel shit? I don't know what you're talking about. So that that part, I don't know if it worked or did it work, but the combination of the amount of people with, you know, in the hospital with physical therapists with my mother at home with capable of taking me, the product healing coma nation of all of those things somehow did unlock the scar tissue and allow me to make a full recovery. It was a lot of hard work for you know, a year plus to get back on my feet, but I got there. Well, I'm sure there's something to be said for believing or at least having positive thoughts about your healing. And making sure that you look at it in terms of like this can be done. But yeah, no. I mean, very skeptical salt man like I said that the salt man, take it for what it is telling that story not as an advocate for product necessary. But I will say agreeing with what you just said there is something about that. There's something about. Being wrapped in the positivity that it was with my mother in that moment of just being like pay like, let's get through this. Let's figure this out together. Like, let's focus our mind on something. And a lot of, you know, even as I go through how how did you do that? Like, you know, people ask me this question. Like, are you a superhuman, and I'm like, yeah, I'm a superhuman. And so we're you like that's how I feel like we all have this capacity in our minds to unlock all sorts of things. I don't care if you want to paint pictures compose music start a business, you know, sit sit in a warehouse into a podcast, whatever it is. You wanna do fucking amazing things? Like, Ed, you know, having that belief does does add up to that. I mean, that's step one in my opinion is visualizing them believing. And on the flip side having a negative self worth or a negative opinion of what you're about to do or a negative thought about the future can also manifest. Also. It's terrible results. Absolutely. Absolutely Jonah think pro placebo effect is a real thing. We know that right. We know that if you really do believe that you're going to get better because of some sugar pill to give you. There's a tangible result hundred percent if you really believe. Yeah. So that's salt guy. If the thing about all that stupid shit is if you believe it it actually has an effect. There's there's a lot of healers out there that lease on paper totally full of shit. But if you believe in these assholes, yeah, thank you for. It's very slippery human mind is such a slippery thing. I mean, and I'll go back to my own experience. And again, I don't know how ephemeral or out there you wanna get. But I'm out there in Antarctica, fifty four days alone. Like, I'm telling you, I'm doing this for this bigger purpose? I'm feel like I'm tapped into that. And like legitimately there were moments at least for me, whether manifesting that in my mind, whatever you wanna call it that I'm actually feeling energetically uplifted by the people pushing me on like there were days that were incredibly hard where I would sit there, and I'll be like, oh my God. I don't know if I can do this. And I'm like, boom, I I would get over. I would hit with this larger purpose this larger outcome and again, like I'm not I'm not super religious. I was actually raised on a hippie commune like I come from a pretty traditional background, but like the energetic field, whatever you wanna call that. Or if that's just the belief in something, you know, the power of that like I felt the strength from those moments. There was moments when my body's switched from kind of being negative. Oh, my God another day out here. My God, it's minus twenty five tapping into those flows date. So again, I don't I don't have perfect words for that. You know, I'm starting to try to build my vocabulary around that. But that energy, I think it is derived from what you're saying. If you start to believe it if you can believe like, hey, there's a larger purpose in this. Or hey, this blue force fields one foot. There is something that if you're gonna originate that positively in your mind that I think can give us incredible amounts of strength. And then we can tap into something greater why I think there's definitely something to what you're saying about the untapped limits of the human potential that there's most people barely scratched the surface of that. And if you really firmly get into that zone and believe you can do things that people just they really don't have any idea. What they can do if they have to because people are rarely pushed to their actual limits. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's been said many times before I say it, but that that idea that growth happens outside the comfort zone. One of the things that I've personally thought about a lot in this space is you know, I got severely burned in this fire. I didn't I chose a jump the rope. So I was chosen to be a knucklehead twenty two year old kid on a beach in Thailand. But like I wasn't like God. I wanna get severely burned today. Like that happened to me right, which forced me through this intense tragic moment, but from that, I was able to learn this sort of untapped potential inside of me because of the outcome because the winning this traffic on. But what I realize is that it's hard to choose that path often it's hard to push yourself outside of those boundaries. But things that are, you know, quote, unquote forced on you. I mean, let's look at something that half of this population, essentially does give birth childbirth natural childbirth. Right. It's been happening since the beginning of time, and that's an incredibly intense physical manifestation of the power of the human body. I mean, I can't even. Imagine. Obviously, what that would look like Norway ever be able to experience that, but that's incredibly powerful more times when people are forced to go through a cancer diagnosis and have to go through radiation, and chemo, and you know, facing the mortality and all this other stuff people get through those. But oftentimes these tragedies have to be forced upon us for us to do them. And so my exploration now with my creative artwork. I call with these expeditions. These world record projects that pushed my body and mind, it's me choosing to step into those moments. It's meet choosing to put my body and mind in these intense moments because of a deep curiosity of like, what are the limits of human potential? You know, what are my limits? What are our limits, collectively, and can my physical expression of this inspire other people to innovate create and do amazing things in the world and in other modalities and canvases. Well, that's one of the weird things about people doing extrordinary things. Like, what you did is that you absolutely will give other people fuel to accomplish things in their life inspiration is so critical for human. Beings. I mean, I draw upon it from so many different sources from David Goggin 's and a bunch of my other friends at my friend Cameron Hanes and a lot of other people that are endurance athletes in different people that have been interviewed on this podcast. But there's something that happens when you realize that people can do extrordinary things that makes you believe in the potential not just in that person. But also in yourself. Absolutely. I mean Gog is great example that I've never met him. But I've personally derived inspiration from that guy. I mean, he gets out there. You know, you can't run a hundred miles like I'll show you run a hundred miles, you know, and he's pushing his by two extremes. Or you know, I love what he says about the forty percent. You know, I think about different in my mind, but like what are those limits? I don't know if it's forty percent or forty percent, people quit. You know, people quit that I can't voice comes up, and you know, he's proven it. So as many other people of actually when you say, I can actually when you don't stop you get stronger and for me in my own story in my own journey. I think that final day that final final. Thirty two hour push proves it three days before that. You know, I'm videotaping all this. I'm trying to capture as much content to be able to share with people of this crazy weird place. That's an article by yourself and like day forty nine day. Forty fifty like, I'm literally crying into my goal programme. Like, I'm running out of food. I'm exhausted. I don't know if I can keep doing this. I'm just like work, right? But sure enough. I don't say I can't you know, it's that it was a forty percent was fifty cents. That's that moment when I wanted to quit or I should have quit. But then the strongest most amazing moment of my entire athletic career that spans decades happens three days later because I kept pushing it's not like I rested for three days and pull that off. I never took a rest day in fifty four days. I pulled my sled twelve to thirteen hours every single day and on the last day. It was the strongest as possible. So I think it proves if we can push through that I can't moment. No. It's not gonna work that you can get there. And unfortunately, you know, we talk about forty percent with and I actually think a lot of people quit at one percent. They're sitting behind their offense to like, you know, one day I want to travel overseas or. Or you know, I hate this job. You know, I've got this great business idea. But I mean like, but I can't like I've got no money to start this business. I've got no this like when I first set off my first world record in two thousand sixteen twenty fourteen. I sat with Jenna in my house one bedroom apartment with a whiteboard. And we're like I'm gonna see if I can set the world record for the explorers grand, slam something fewer than fifty people in the world of ever done. And I'm going to be the fastest ever. Come to climb Kilimanjaro North Pole south pole back toback. I haven't climbed a bunch of mountains be pretty easy say can't. Oh. And by the way, we have no money to do this. We have no platform I have like two hundred Instagram followers, like nothing, but we just sat there and know instead of saying I can't let's say I can't what's the first step to that. We literally get out our, laptops. And I'm like going where we want to build this big media campaign where lots of people follow and get pressed we know nothing about we've no background this week Google. What's the difference between marketing MPR, I mean, we are literally asking Google the most basic of all basic questions. But you know, we continue to say like, let's get coffee with our one friend who knows something about this. We should probably get a website. How does one build a website, and it goes on and on like this how long ago did you start this journey? So that that was twenty four when we twenty fourteen when we dream that up this other world record was five years ago. Yeah. So to see if I could set the world record for something called the explorers grand slam. So let's come in tallest mountain on each of the seven continents seven summits. And before that had you done anything like that or just been Affleck's. So I grew up in Portland. So I grew up like in the outdoors, but like to climb Everest at Denali sort. No like the short answer is I met a few mountains got never been in the snow before I'd word crampons, I had not experienced. But like not even close to the experience that you would think one would need to do that. And to just break world records doing not just to be the fastest person to ever complete it. It ended up being one hundred thirty nine days straight through to climb. All those mountains. Didn't know. I think we had a clip sago of something on Everest. But but yeah. To do to do all of that. It started from this place of not of a believing. I can and you know, it's again, it's fun to talk about the epic adventure. But we if me it's actually fun to talk about what happened behind the scenes of that because what actually happened like people applaud our success. Now. This is me this is you walking across a ladder. That's about three hundred foot hole crevasse on the other side of it that you have to go through to on your way up the the Mount Everest climbing route. And so you crampons or clicking on the on the in your hooking them on the ladder walk across. And if you fall you die. Yes. So man watch us again, this is so awful. It's so awful because you're basically just walking this tightrope on let me hear it. Listen to that click folks, I implore you to go to the Instagram page. So you get the full freak out ramp. Does they're tied together to those ladders. Yeah. Ties rickety beat but three hundred foot cavern over there. Oh, fuck all this cheese. Yes. And you're looking down because you ever go on and we cut the sound off at the end there. But I go at the because like there was fifty those lives cheer cheering every time. I I was like, yeah. One more. Woo fifty time up in the Kumo actually go through that section a couple of times. It's a very dangerous section of the mountain. But yeah about fifty of those ladders. So when you went through Everest, did you see the bodies? So I fortunately didn't see anybody's up there. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I mean, I'm not like trying to see that, you know. But they're they're more prevalent on the climbing out on the north side the day that I did summit three people died on the day that I summited when I yeah. When I so the set the talk about ever, I mean for me as major setbacks it was the eighth of nine expeditions in this sequence. So I've done one hundred days of other expeditions leading up to Everest to do this explores grand slam world record. I'm trying to climb Everest. I'm exhausted from one hundred days. I just come from the North Pole before that Kilimanjaro before that, you know, Elvis all these other mountains, and I make my summit push on ever. I'm not with a guide or anything. It's just myself in one sherpa who I met climbing in Nepal. The your previous when I was training for this. And so it's just the two of us and we climb up and a camp force ever says. Four camps. There's base camping. And there's camps progressively higher in the mountains, you can get your body acclimatize and we get up into camp four. Have you read the book innocent by Jon Krakauer or anything about? Okay, there's a famous book that's written about it where eleven people die and right in this moments called the death zone you enter above twenty six thousand feet the human body, basically can't survive for long even with supplemental oxygen and this massive snowstorm and windstorm blows in kind of out of nowhere. And we're trying to push the summit it takes two and a half hours just to set up our ten and get inside. And we know like it's over like, we're not we're not going to summit Everest like in this storm. There's no way. So we just survived the night wake up the next morning. Still getting pounded by this weather and actually have to climb back down the mountain so climb back down the mountain all the way to camp too. And they're like, well, that's probably like you don't usually like spend a night out in the death zone. And like make a second attempt, and you've already tried all these other mountains your hundred plus days in this journey. And I was like man I wanna see if I can get back up there like and this other guy who I met on another team had some supplemental auction so I use my supplement auction. So my PO supply stores are limited now. As well. And so he he says to me, hey, I'm not going to go up. I'm sick. But if you get back up to camp four there's a couple bottles of oxygen that you could use of mine if you if you somehow get back up there so share enough percent body the name of the sherpas commun- with amazing climber himself we get back up to camp four in the death zone. And we decide we're going to go for the summit. We call back down to base camp. What's the weather forecast? And they're like, well, it's the exact same forecast. We told you before it might hold in which case, you'll be fine or might turn into what you guys just survive. And if you're not near your tent, and you're up on the summit ridge of Everest like it's going to get like pretty bad. And so we kind of go back and forth. She'll be go for it. Shouldn't we go for it? We decided to go for it. But this crazy thing happens, which is you may have read about this or heard of this if you know much about every, but basically no one climbed ever since two thousand fourteen or fifteen because a huge avalanche killed sixteen Shorter's in two thousand fourteen the the mount was closed and in two thousand fifteen there was a huge earthquake in Nepal that shut the climbing season down. So no one's even climb the mountain in two years. But all of a sudden because these weather delays I end up. And there's one hundred people going for the summit on the exact same day. So basically traffic jam on the worst fucking push the traffic jam possible. So pathetic Bodey, and we go. Okay. Let's figure out how to climb this thing we leave camp. You know, there's a photo that took leaving camp. There's all these lights going up the side of the mountain. And it's because there's one rope that everyone works to put in so everyone's using the same rope. And all the sudden where behind one hundred people, and if you stand there wind chill, minus forty degrees, like we're going to get frostbite like we're going to not be able to make it and so percents body, and I look at your term ago, let's unclear from the rope. And so we actually decide. We actually decided to unclear from the rope climb up all the way to the balcony from the south call the death zone area was mentioning before up to about twenty eight thousand feet on rope. Because we actually think it's more dangerous to climb roped next to all the behind all the people than it is to risk a fall. You don't know those people, right? They're like and people are I mean, you're on Everest at twenty thousand feet if people are walking one step per minute. Sometimes I mean, it's it is brutal. And so I mean, I'm walking maybe two steps every thirty seconds. But I'm like you saying bolt like past people. Yeah. This is gives an example like so you're in the world the worst place in the world to be in a traffic jam as you could see here from his photo. I posted that day. But anyways, I get up to this edge, and it finally, it's too steep. It's too dangerous for us to be on clip from the rope any longer we're like we're just going to have to clip in and settle in behind. We'd pass like fifty or sixty people. So we're in much better place than ever. I still have this one big puffy co as actually the same. Puffy code. I used an article the big like Michelin man coat, and I'm like we're going to slow down. I better put this big jacket on. And so I take my jacket off undo my gloves real quick to put this big jacket on over me to wore myself up, and I looked down and my right hand is black like just black is black can be an like ho shit like telltale sign of frostbite like oh my God. Like the same thing. We've got school kits Boeing alone. We've got family on the whole thing. And I'm like, oh my God. Like, I'm gonna root lose my right hand is Jenna still going to love me. You know, what's my family gonna think? And then I don't say anything to pertain Bodey my hand back in this big gloves, and I go, okay. And I don't I don't recommend this thought process, but I go, well, if I'm gonna lose my hand anyways. Wouldn't it be cooler to lose my hand? But also have summited Everest. So I'll black wasn't. I mean, it was black like black black lie. So yes, like me was black. Did you take a picture of it? So so the sun had was just still the sun was just below the horizon. So it's like dusk. And look down at this point in on the sun comes up so jam Mahan back in this club. And I don't say anything to percent bone, Mike. Let's keep pushing for the summit. So we go for the next three hours and the whole time on I'm like, oh my God. I'm such an idiot. Like, I'm gonna lose my hand, my hands frost bit and this and that and so we get up, and we're about thirty minutes blow mountain over summit and should be beautiful moment for me like since a little kid I dreamed like summoning efforts would be like, the greatest accomplishment and life on my God. And I'm thinking like just in this dark place. But also haven't taken a single photo, basically. And I'm like, why gotta get like a photo or video of you know, the famous mount ever summit. So I put my gopro to shoot a video. I shoot this short little video which kind of shows us crazy exposure that I'm on one side five thousand feet down into China on one side five thousand feet in Nepal. Miss Thailand knife edge ridge. And of course, after just my. Loves again, this is from the summit, and I pull my my gopro out have to mess with my gloves put it back in. And I look at my hand. I start my waving my arms in the air. Go percent, boaty my hands back my back. And he's like, what are you doing? It. Just so happened that the the glove warmers in my gloves, the chemical hand warmers had broken open and the charcoal and the copper filings of the chemical hand warmers had tied my him flack oh. Was completely fide. Oh god. So yeah. This clip here. If you play the top, it's me reaching the summit. That's Passaic boaty right there. But so when. Top of the world, no words can describe. Wow. So did you experience any discomfort in your hands Ford? So you're again, we're talking about a lot of this podcast, but about mindset, which is one of my favorite, topics. And like just like we said, you could convince yourself at the salt man is fixing your foot like I'm on Everest. I'm at twenty eight thousand feet. My brain's not working very well. I know that the weather's coming in bad that people are going to get maybe frostbite based on the forecast, and I looked down on it. See my hands black where does my mind go. It's like it's not like, oh, let me think about this. My hand warmer must have broken open this. I'm like my hand. It was weird. 'cause I was like I didn't feel my hand getting cold my hand like spine. But I'm on my hands black that means, you know, in my brain. I'm like, I have frostbite. So it just like it's that weird thing where you can take your mind a lot of the positivity. This my mom went to the negative immediately. Like your hands gone. It's frozen off like the. So happened to the people that died they on the rope. Yeah. So unfortunately that day the weather actually did get pretty bad later in the day. So fortunately, I was able to get down before the weather got to that. But the people that died that day one slipped and fell down these ropes over on low T, which is the adjacent mountain, but some sharing some of the same ropes on the same route. And then two people died from sickness so basically either running out of oxygen. They're not gonna get back down in their tent. I think those people actually did get carried back down to their tents that night, and then died in the tents that night. Some it's called cerebral Dima, which is basically your brain fills with fluid from being at the high altitude or not getting enough oxygen. And it's a it's a killer up there. And you know, one of the crazy things about being up. There is you know, you read about it. But you really can't rescue somebody very easily up there. I mean to to carry a human body down to rescue them is nearly impossible. And I kind of always thought in my mind, you know, if I saw somebody lying on the ground like, I would, you know, some in the energy to pick them up, and I was actually coming back from. The summit, and I was on the south summit? So just below the ever some twenty eight thousand eight hundred feet or something like that. And this Brazilian woman who had met in base camp named Thais who has become friends with your Nepal for a couple of months. You start talking to people getting friends with other climbers, whatever and I see her lying on the ground with her head like lean back in her oxygen mask off to the side. And I'm like, oh my God. Like, this is the moment that I most feared like somebody who I know's lying here on the side of the mountain. And I think to myself I've got a pick her up. I've got a pick her up and somehow carry her down this mountain, and I lean over to grab her, and I try with all my might to do anything. And I realized I can't move her six inches. Like, I'm completely exhausted muscles aren't working brains networking, so I do the only thing I can think to do is. I just wrap her in my arms, and I say Thais like if you can hear me, it's calling you need to get up you need to get your jn mask on you need to start moving like, please get up please get up. No response. She was climbing with sherpa another guide right next to her. And they were like look like we're having trouble with rockstar. Mass, but we're going to fix it. Like, it's all right. And I was like just kind of going through this intense moments. Like, what do I do? How can I help? And it says weirdest. You know, I'm not proud of it necessarily say. But like there was nothing. I could do like it's just the most helpless feeling in the world where you want to help the common person afr-. I mean, this person would be a friend. But if any human being is lying on the ground in the snow. You're like I want to help this person get down this mountain, and I was just on so close on my limit up there in the summit. There was nothing. I could do. Fortunately, she was not one of the people that pass away that her team did get her oxygen mask on her. And she actually made it to the summit and back down safely. Also, she went up going up from there, which to me is like another whole crazy part of that story. But it was an interesting lesson for me in like, you know, you hear these stories you can't move bodies up there. There's nothing you can do the rescue and people have been criticized for not doing these crazy rescues when things have gone wrong up there. But it really hit home for me like how how hard it would be to move somebody down that mountain from that altitude. And so when you're up there, you know, unlike. An article I was actually alone in Everest. Like, I said it was pretty crowded day. Like, you're essentially alone up there. Like if you can't keep putting one foot in front of the other up in the death zone. There's not not a whole lot that you can do. So the three people that died opted. They leave them there. I'm not sure what those specific people because sometimes they you can get like a large team of people to slowly lower people down in a weird way. It's actually easier to lower a dead body than it is to lower a live person because at dead body. You don't have to worry about breaking bones. And that if you're lowing someone over rocks and things like that. Yeah. So I actually believe those bodies are no longer there. But there are quite a few bodies still on the mountain, and particularly the north side Chinese so you can climb it from two sides, the Nepal side, which is more commonly climb where I climb by the Tabet side. The Tabet side is known for having a lot more the bodies still actually on the climbing route for sure so but for me on that I mean that day I in in a crazy way continues on because I got back down to camp four, and I'm thinking I'm going to sleep for the night rest and come back. Down the mountain usually takes a few days to get back down the mountain at this point. You know, I've only got one more mountain to climb to finish my world record the explorers grand slam, and I was about two months ahead of schedule. So if I had climbed Denali in the next two months, North America's Tulsa mountain up in Alaska, I was going to set this world this world record that I was. And so I called back home to Genoa. And I was like I made it like I made it and earlier in the day when my hands had gotten frozen, I had actually had a heated boot warmers. And so I had turned the heat in my boot warmers app is hot as possible. And I'm like if my hand is fostered, and what can my feet look like so I cranked those up as hot as possible. So Jen is like, hey, like how you doing like you? All right. We've heard some reports over social media that's been really hard day up there. Like, I'm like, yeah. I'm all right. Like, no frostbite. No injuries. Like, I'm good. And I was like, well, actually, I burned my feet, and she's like, oh frostbite like how bad is it? And I was like, no not frostbite. I actually burned too like silver dollar circles in the bottom two both of my feet from turning my boot warmers up too much. She's like. Wait. Let me get this straight. Like you climb. Everest. You don't get frostbite. But you burn yourself. She was like you your feet fire like just a bad situation. But then she goes on. And she was like she literally said the next semi me. I will literally never forget my life. But she goes. So you're in your tent, right? You take your boots off and everything and curled up in there. And like, yeah. And she's like, well, I actually need you to put your boots back on. Excuse me. Like what like she was like. Yeah. So we've been doing some calculating back home. And it just so happens that if you can get to the summit of Denali in the next week, you can set not one but two world records. And I was like well that sounds nice. But like I'm on the summit of a blow the summit of Everest. How how is that going to work? She's like, okay, put your boots back on down. Now climb all the way back to base camp. There's no time for you to sleep at a helicopter is going to take you to Katmandu no time for a hotel. No time for a shower. But an evening flight it's going to take you to by Seattle to Anchorage and instead of having three weeks to climb. Denali you'll have three days. But if you can do all of that, you'll set another world record like ready, go. So I was disbelief, but knowing better than to disobey, not only my amazing wife, but the planner and logistics expert in running back on all this I assure enough put my boots back on wipe the slate. Clean and found myself. Just one hundred hours after standing on the summit of Everest. I found myself over in Alaska trying to push up to the summit to to try to set the two world records and not just the one. Now, what kind of recovered is your body need when you Zet yourself like that. Yeah. Climbing everest. I would think that your body's must you had to be in some kind of state of shock or completely. There's there's some clips on Denali in the next few days where I'm just absolutely trashed like I'm like like barely is. I'm gonna try to Bush with some, and I'm the one benefit I will say there one most of it's not a benefit, but I'll keep it in the positive the one benefit is usually in high altitude mountaineering you need to acclimatise. So your body creates more red blood cells when you go up into the thinner air to allow you to breathe oxygen better at the higher altitudes a mountain. Like Denali normally takes three weeks to climb because you're coming from sea level and to get up to twenty thousand feet. You can't just get dropped off there. If you are I right now got dropped off on the summit. Denali we pass out. No matter of minutes. Right. But because I'm coming from Everest at twenty nine thousand feet, it puts Denali into perspective not from a technical mountaineering Stampa 'cause it's still very dangerous and very challenging mountain. A lot. As a harder mountain to climb. Mount Everest technically, but twenty thousand feet my body can handle the rapid ascent a little bit better. If I can muster the energy to do it. The physiology of my body is actually in a better place to climb higher faster. If that makes sense. No, it does make sense. But. So you're when you're done with this what how long did it take you to just feel like a normal person again? Yeah. So I was on Denali ended up somebody in in three days and setting. So the explorers grand slam was the seven summits plus north and south pole. But the second world record was just the seven summits by themselves. So even though I went to the polls, I still set the speed record for the seven summits as well. So seven summits one hundred thirty one days and the explorers grand slam one hundred thirty nine and then I returned to Alaska, and then home to Portland, and honestly, it was a good six months until I felt normal again it, and I'm I'm definitely I guess I'm only about five weeks out from an article right now. And I I haven't really taken a lot of rest of recovery of on the roads still doing various things, and you know, I'm nowhere near a covered. It's gonna take a long time to get back. So these these exertions I love him. I love pushing my body. But you know, the the cycle of high-performance is also knowing how to recover recover. Well, good nutritional that, and it takes a long time that went took six months, and I would imagine this article recovery is gonna take a long time. I'm as well. Now when you say took six months, or are you monitoring your physiological levels. What are you monitoring? And how do you find out where you're at? Yeah. So I started to do a lot of blood work actually early on in my travel and career I, you know, actually early on in my professional traffic on crime mentioned I moved to Australia not long after turning pro and coming out of the gate with this win. And I the opportunity to go train with some of the best translates in the world has actually know couple world champ is a group of fifteen of us a couple of world champion, so female ironman world champion couple limbic medalists means from the top people in the world, and I'm this like up and coming professional triathlete. And I think it's so cool that I'm like training with the best guys. I mean, you know, it'd be like, you know, a guy that just gets into the UFC and all of a sudden he's training with you know, the top contenders title guys like I wanted to really roll hard with them. And so I was training super hard to try to keep up with the guys the best guys, and I had an amazing month. And then I completely fell apart because their level of training were true world class level. And I'm starting out. It was just too much for me. So Rashed my entire system. My testosterone dropped to that level of a ninety year old man. I mean, I was like had no testosterone on my body. And, you know, went through some serious overtraining, which as you know, as no joke learned that lesson the hard way, and that was one of the darkest moments of my athletic career, but it's also been a net benefit for me as I've gone that was back in twenty eleven or whatever in these these world record projects have been in the last couple of years. And so I learned from that, you know, taking it way too much and not learning how to recover to implementing things in my. So your question about what did I monitor resting heart rate is one that I monitored a lot harake variability as well as well as certain blood levels, of course, around the whole endocrine system, the testosterone levels, the, you know, different hormone levels and things like that. So coming back, I do blood work ahead of time. Then come back just a standard process with the nutrition company that had all this blood work on me. So when I left an article before flying home be next. I had to go to New York to do the today show, which was a whole weird thing after being alone in an article to have the TV cameras your face. That's a whole other like weird twilight in the moment. But before even did that I flew to Charlotte where their nutrition innovation center is and it all my blood work. And so we can have basically this longitudinal study of my blood work to understand it. And so I'm honored all that. And figure out what I'm deficient in what I need where my heart rates at. And basically a lot of inflammation in my body needed to kind of read my body of that and fully recover. So when you coming back from all these summits and all these this time at altitude, what is actually happen to your body that causes you to be really depleted for six months. Like what what's what's happening other than the fact that you were at high altitude low oxygen like what's taking place? So one of the things that happened to high altitude that you don't really think about too much, which is your body's not getting. So the air actually has just as much oxygen as it does at sea level, but the air is less dense. So that means as you breathe in the air. You're literally getting less off. Dejan into your blood, less dense. It's less less. Nitrogen the pressure changes. Right. So at the high altitudes actually the pressure that's changing not less oxygen. There's just as much oxygen, but in a less dense form so in the same volume of breath. You're getting less actual oh, two into your blood. What are you? I guess carbon dioxide is that right? I'm not a doctor said. All I know what you're getting less oxygen. You're getting less oxygen your body. So what ends up happening is your muscles. Of course need oxygen to perform. So normally, you know, when I'm in my most elite physical shape resting heart rate during a professional travel and career like thirty five getting out of bed. You know, thirty low enough that if you weren't a professional athlete you went to a doctor with a heart rate at thirty five they'd be like, oh my God. Like, you're going to die. There's something wrong with you. It's also a key marker of elite performance, you know, that of course, but. What happens is your body? Can't is getting so little auction, even as your blood is climate ising, you're sleeping with the resting heart rate at altitude on Everest like ninety hundred beats per minute. So, you know, that's pretty elevated heart rate twenty four hours a day in for in my case for a hundred and thirty nine days straight. So essentially, you're just cr- your heart is just cook even at rest, and so what that does to your body in terms of throws your hormones around it. Obviously, you lose body weight body, fat body composition changes all of those things really shift and happen in a pretty intense way. So coming back like actually just getting your heart rate back down getting your, you know, a pair of sympathic nervous system to just relax and stress free. And all that kind of stuff it takes awhile for sure. So what do you do to help yourself recover when you come back because there specific kinds of food that you eat or supplements that you, you know, I'll start the few different things that I find work. Well, one sleep. I mean, I think that sleep in our culture in general is really under. Rated I think, you know, if you go in the corporate world, and everyone's like, I pulled this all night or I work one hundred twenty hours a week. I this I that or whatever like, you know, I'm telling you the story about pushing through the night and going thirty two hours straight. There's a time and place for big pushes without sleep. Like, we are not built to do that sustainably in any ratio performance. So in my training when I'm training for these things. I prioritize sleep. I prioritize taken a nap the same thing when I'm recovering. So really making sure I get that sleep is the most for me the most natural way to recover and top of that soft tissue work. I'm a huge believer in massage as well as chiropractor been going to a car Proctor since I was a little kid and to me that makes a big difference. Just to have everything in alignment everything. Kind of, you know, working well efficiently in my body, and then yes up laments, you know, definitely, reducing inflammation. So for me health is huge. So getting those probiotics getting the right stuff in you know, it's easy to have that leaky gutter things where you're not getting nutrition observe absorbed properly, and I think we all in various states, you know, you deal with that, you know, the standard American diet for relief. That for a lot of people. So getting that nutrition clean, and right, so yeah. Sleep rest recovery nutrition. And then I've definitely been taken a lot of supplements through my life. I air more towards the whole food supplements these days, but I find, you know, things like tumor that really, reduce inflammation. And you know, magnesium definitely helps a lot. So there's a few things that I that I take daily, but really I think sleep in clean diet will goes a long way. I, you know, mess with some cry before I find that to be pre-pretty good. I didn't do that a lot. But I've done that in the last couple of years a bit so various things. But yeah, for me sleep diet nutrition is is the the key to recovery and what kind of foods. Do you do when you say eating clean? Yeah. Of particular way of eating I'm I'm recently doing more of a Pesca -tarian diet. So I mostly cut out meet. Although that's very oh. I was raised that way. My parents have been vegetarians forever, watches, Episcopalian. So they some fish, but no, you know, no, chicken obeef. None of that. For me. I've actually even in an article there was some in my freeze dried meals there was you know, beef and chicken and stuff like that. So it's not something I freeze dried meals as well. As bringing the Columbine with the main thing, but every dinner I had one freeze dried meal at the end of the day that was extra thousand. Exactly. Yeah. It was a company was alpine air but same thing as a mountain house, basically, so as rice noodles mixed with chicken or beef. But when I say can clean, I mostly mean, just like eating whole food stuff like not eating not eating processed crap refined sugars that kind of stuff. I mean, I'm I'm a normal human being so I'm guilty of that as anyone from time to time just grabbing the easiest closest thing. But like I said my dad, my dad's inorganic farmer, my mom, my stepdad started chain of natural foods grocery stores when I was a kid. So I was really raised around, you know, you know, in in the sort of hippie coop days of the natural foods movement, which of course, now with, you know, Amazon honing whole foods is to reward of the mainstream. But you know, that was what I was raised around, and, you know, eating keen wall rice, kale, those kinds of things being, you know, Hofu nutritionist has gone a long way for me protectively when I need to recover. Now. Do you mess with CBD at all? It's not something. I've I've done a lot of hear amazing things. I've definitely not. To it at all. But I haven't haven't tried to what's your experience with that. I've been experimented with the for the last couple of years. It has a pretty profound effect on on alleviating soreness, especially joint soreness. And it also makes you feel good like the the the word is that it alleviates anxiety, which I don't suffer a lot of. But it just makes me feel relaxed. Did you do you take it orally or topically? I take a dropper dropper. I take like whatever they say to take five times more than that. You take it at night like during the morning, and I take it at night as well. Okay. I just always feel like I'm running my body at red line running my brain red lines. So whatever they say you need. I just doubled. Yeah. Yeah. For almost everything. And do you feel like it doesn't have the effects of it? But do you feel like no, no nothing? Clear-headed clear minds. THC tolerance is so hot. It doesn't really, but some forms of it have small amount of and I think there may be some sort of synergistic effect that that happens with the THC combined with the CBD that helps people even more because a lot of people that have pain, particularly chronic pain. They experience a lot of relief from THC from just smoking or vaporizing it or using edibles. So I think that the the CBD with a little bit of THC might have a better effect fighters. Say that, sir. No, I'm interested in trying to see for sure something I should. Definitely try. Do you find that it gives you like a sustained it relief? When it's in your body like a masking relief, or do you feel like it actually is like curing the root? Cause of that inflammation rings. I I don't think it's masking at all. I think it's alleviating, the inflammation. It's just it's a very healthy thing for your body to eat. It's you know, obviously, there's a bunch of different oils that will lead inflammation or different essential fatty acids and fish oils are very good firm information. I think anything that you can take that helps you body mitigate inflammation, inflammation, seems to be a gigantic problem with just not with pain just with pain. But I think also with anxiety. I think it's it's entirely possible that feelings of discomfort. You know, like like when you when you see people that are anxious. Do you often look bloated to me? Look like, I think it's just an overall sense of unwillingness, you know, and I think that poor diet exacerbates that and a good diet can leave eight some those symptoms. And I think that CBD is a big part of that. One hundred percent. I mean, I'm interested to try that for sure I've definitely that inflammation, even for me coming back from an article in this quarter recovery. Phase what's weird is like you saw. How lean I got then. But my body I think because it was so depleted of food source is now actually almost trying to put fat back on my body like a kind of storing that so actually my body compensation feels weird to me right now because my body is like just like trying to figure out where the hell on that. And I think a lot of that comes from that, chronic inflammation. And certainly just those elevated cortisol levels of just being so jacked up and red line. Like, you said just like so wired so finding ways to kind of mitigate that I think is is crucial is I should try. What what form would you recommend trying to drop performance by like the I like it because like there's gel tabs are fine. But I think it's unnecessary about is absorbing the core. The cover SCO the stuff just go right to the oil. I just think is the best way to do it. But I'm a big fan of curcumin to America. I think those are really good haven't tried aqua- Gonda or any of the land mushroom. TA this stuff actually that. I have right here at this wasn't a plant lions mushroom elixir of love the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I'd take this all the time. I make TI out of this. I've messed with like the quarter steps and the nausea Gandara produced some of the cortisol like motion or hormonal balances type of stuff quarter sepsis fantastic to for endurance. Yes. Percent. We have a pro on it. We have an on it product called shrimp tech sport that has court assess B-vitamins and a bunch of adapted Jin's it really really has a big impact on me in terms of like how hard I can push in the gym. I take it about an hour or so before. Yeah. Yeah. Let your body absorb it. And it just it just really has a real effect. And it doesn't give me a jittery thing either. Yeah. It just gives me more energy. Just kind of take it in our before kind of your body for more oxygen uptake is that kind of behind Curtis apps. That's what I've been told any the came out of high altitude herders they noticed that. Yeah. When they're the cattle where eating certain mushrooms, they had more energy. And so then they that's that's how they started experimenting with the stuff. They actually grow it on caterpillars. What? Strange man, see you can find it court assess mushrooms grown on Caterpillar picturing like this room of caterpillars with carrying around mushrooms on their back. Like, it's real. It's real freaky. But apparently the way they farm it. That's the way they farm it. The actually grow it on Caterpillar. That's fascinating. Yeah. Suspensive shit. But like there, it is allow account fucking strange those that the bottom there, that's a Caterpillar mushroom going out of their heads or something like, thank you. I'll take that snip that shit off the Caterpillar shit. Can weird man? Yeah. Well, apparently it works. What does? Yeah. It's you know, there's so many Bennett mean Paul's damn it's who's been on the podcast before. And I can't wait to get them back on again. But he's a my college issed, and it was one of the best podcast that I've ever done in terms of like really explaining the benefits of different fungi different mushrooms, and how many different nutritional benefits, you can derive from them. I mean, I can't agree. More just the the the whole food nutrition from many different levels of mushrooms, the tomb Rick full plant derivatives. I mean to me they go they go a long way in their pure form for sure. Yeah. What about what what do you drink? Do you drink a lot of water? Do you drink fruit juices, vegetable juices, mostly mostly water to be perfectly honest. I do usually start the day with a smoothie of some kind. So usually it's got got fruit in it. Obviously fruit, and the other thing I put in there as I've been using this stuff that it's actually the company standard processes just coming out with it. But they let me try to time and survey is slow release glucose so it's a protein powder. But instead of giving glucose, spike like you would from a refined sugar or something like that. It's kind of a long burn long chain glucose, I don't know the full chemistry of that. But I find it makes a big difference rather than kind of just getting that sugar spike early in the day. It actually kind of gives the slow release of energy. And I was using that was actually in the Columbine as well. And I really liked that particularly for endurance. Because you know, if you start taking the goop packets or something like that, you get that spike of a hundred calories and get that like quick like, boom burst of energy reply replenishes your glucose stores, but this I feel like just as much slower cleaner, burn and it lasts longer definitely for anaerobic stuff. I mean, maybe you need that more explosive power, whatever, you know, different things for that. But for some of the like low heart rate zone one's own too long grinding zyppah stuff that I do in the mountains or pulling this letter, whatever I find it's really good. For stuff like that. Now. What scares me about people? Like, you is how old are you? Now, thirty three. Okay. You're very young. I'll take that. This is this is what I'm worried I'm worried that you've already done so much crazy shit that you have to push past the crazy shit you've already done, and you've already been an Everest. It sounds like you were kind of like you went on death's door. But you open the front gate. Yeah. He over the front gate, you're on the lawn. Yeah. Deaths lawn. Sure. Absolutely. I mean, people are literally died that day. You know, it's easy to try to do next. This is this is the question. Like, do you have some crazy shit in your head right now? You're like okay now going to the moon with the fucking balloon. You know, it's buddy, it's twofold. It's interesting intersection. I appreciate that that you call me. Call me young. I'll take that all day long fifty one or you are me, but I guess in terms of an athlete term spray. You know, you're in the you're in the Pete. Yeah. The peak for inter athletes, and it's fun to be here. But I also think it's a moment in time where a little bit of a little bit. I'll say I won't get myself too much credit, but a little bit of wisdom meets also athletic performance a moment in time. We're had enough experience. Enough setbacks ups and downs and success, of course, with the world records and things I have. But to really take stock of what's important to me. And what I've realized more and more is I'm super curious about pushing the limits of my own potential hundred percent, we've talked about that. I love that. But actually don't think of myself so much as a risk taker or an adrenaline junkie when series. Not really when I think about it. Like these things are really methodical. Know their practiced their their an not to say, there's not wrist. You saw me trying to set up my ten that tent flies away. Like, I'm screwed. I'm gonna bad way. What would you do would you run after it? I mean, you smell catching up for that thing is gone. Yeah. You know, you hit you hit the button on the call the plane and hope they can find you type of thing. And even that's like our storm like that on like they're going to get there. But for me when I'm honestly most excited about next. Yes. I have some other projects that I'm marinate in my mind to have other expeditions. Sure haven't haven't fully crystallize enough to announce right here for civility. But you know, I've got some ideas, but more. So like, I'm excited about, you know, sharing what I've learned like I said that wisdom meets high performance of actually having an ability. Now, like, I said when I started this, I had, you know, my friends following me on Instagram, and I'm starting to have ability to share the story people are asking for me to take interviews. I'm writing a book right now. Lots of my learnings going into that kind of stuff really really having an ability to pass a song. Because for me as fun as it is for me to push my own limits. Like, I really inspires me. Really fires me up is when when I get emails or notion people like, hey, man, I watched you cross Nordica. I haven't been to the gym and five years I've gone every single day since then I'm trail running now. Or like, I started that business. I never said I was going to star. Whatever. And so having an ability to to have a moment in time when I can share. So my learnings, you know, with the world in meaningful different contents. That's that really excites me, you know, I love the opportunity to do that. But man like for sure there's some other. There's some other events on the horizon as well. But but yeah, it's not just about one upping the next thing. I think that that's a losing proposition in the long run of always trying to do the bigger batter. Craziest thing because when the stakes are like you said the razors line between life and death. You keep one-upping yourself enough. You know, you don't you don't make it to the end of a long life. Unfortunately. And I'm not trying to have that be the end. Well, it sounds like a New York broken world records. You you. You're in this weird place where you've accomplished so much that in order to -ccomplish other things they if you're going to take it to the next level really has to be truly life threatening. Do you have any recommendations do you wanna come on the way? Now say I'm move into the next stage of life that doesn't involve risk. I don't know. You seem like a nice guy. I don't want anything to happen. You. Give me give me some wisdom. You've got a couple almost a couple of decades on me if you if you were whispering in the ear of your Thirty-three-year-old south how about this? You know, you've had an interesting, Pat, if you're whispering into the thirty three self low would be some advice that you would give yourself that you'd be happy to you lived out over the next twenty years. Well, I mean, obviously life experience when you have life experience. Learn those lessons become a better person. Be better communicating be better at everything you do. But the problem with what you're doing. And it's not a problem. But in this context is that you're pushing these incredible endurance records in nature and particularly in cold weather, and this is what stunning about these things is that you're risking your life. It's not that. It's just difficult like running in all Trevan is incredibly difficult rusher. But what you're doing is not just incredibly difficult. You're doing it in these incredibly harsh environments, and particularly Artika you don't have any relief. If there's nothing. No one's going to help you like you said you tent blows away. Like, you might very well be fucked. Yes, right much. You're right. I don't know what you could do that would one up that. This is the problem is like you're you're one up margin of error is you're in this very strange sort of stratosphere of one up a tude. Maybe maybe it's you know, we take a page out of the Bruce Springsteen glory day song, and just you know, kick, my kick my feet up and talk about the glory days for the rest of the time. Don't have to that. But the thing is I mean, don't listen to me, do whatever you wanna do. Obviously, you're going to you're not going to listen to me. But you could do you would apply this sort of mental fortitude that you've demonstrated in this ability to push things, you could apply it to anything. Yeah. It doesn't have to be this physical feats of risking death in in frigid cold temperatures in the middle of the fucking nowhere or. Literally at the bottom of the planet earth that I know and that's to me. That's actually, that's why it's exciting because for me. Yes. Are there some other physical expressions that I want to have in the world for sure, and I have some ideas like I said, but and it's not necessarily trying to one up the next thing. But it's also why it's exciting to me the lessons that I try to learn that I try to share with other people like you said arguing reversal lessons. But they also if I revert them back to my own self are also universal lessons in my own life. So like you said it's like, hey, like, what's the next thing? I'm super passionate about if I have the confidence to sit with the whiteboard with no money, no resources, no background and incredibly supportive fiance at the time now wife who's like down to like Ryder die with me and go into this with me like, and we created what we did. We did something that people literally wrote about and said this impossible people have died trying this you can't do it. And we've achieved it it gives me confidence. Not that. I can do some other crazy physical thing. But it gives you confidence like cool like I want to start. I want to start a business that makes millions of dollars. Cool like let's figure out how to do that. Let's let's do the equivalent of writing into Google. What's the difference between? PR and market. You know, like, yeah, let's do that. So you know, as I as I do a ton of public speaking. Now, write this book, the things are things I'm doing that super fun to share those with the world. So I'm having a lot of fun doing that. And actually sharing the universal truths and the wisdom that I've learned that I think can be applied different ways. But also goes through now, I get to have the fun of applying those in all of those other different ways of my life. And so, you know, for me, I think that the future is bright, particularly if I don't I don't really think of myself, as this endemic corps outdoor athlete. It's very easy to put me in that box. It's very easy to say like cool. So you climb mountains your mountain clams like before years ago, I'd never really climb mountains. But I happen to do something amounts. Well, I'd never been in the polar region. That's why this British guy was looking at me. Like, oh young. Boy, I've spent all this time in an article, you'll never survive this in like, not only survive it. But like I finished I like I beat him. But i'm. Two and a half days. But like, I'm not sitting here going like, you know, I'm fascinated by Artika would I like to go back someday? Absolutely. But I'm not like calling o'brady the polar explorer only, you know, it's like what else can I explore that actually pressing me? I mean, I I love to learn I love to learn about the mind explore that there's so many different ways to express that that I'm just excite of what the future and Holden, lots of different verticals. Well, listen, I think you could fuck into anything. I think it's very clear what you've already accomplished. You could literally do anything you want? But I wanna I wanna see live yet metoo how about this. How about you break some crazy endurance running feats about that like some ultra marathon feels a little bit safer. Worse things can happen to you really fucking tired. But you live. Maybe maybe the next thing is I mean may not the funniest guy in the world. But what do you think about comedy? I mean peace, you know, should I get back out there on the stage. Listen, if you can communicate and you can make people laugh, you can make a group of people laugh, you could do stand up comedy. It's just a matter of taking steps and figuring it out and writing stuff out. And I mean, you've got a lot of fucking stories for sure I mean, just how about getting on stage in front of people and tell them people that you're the first person to cross Antarctica on foot fifty two days. What in the fuck? I do a lot of that. I enjoy that. I I love public speaking. I do a lot of that corporations. Everything does trust me. I do it. You could do. It's what no I have to say. I gotta give you definitely don't remember this. But I actually have met you once before about seven years ago in tiny little comedy club. You did a bit out in Portland small little venue. I'm sure you do way bigger visits. Helium? Great. And at the time. It was funny. I was thinking about it. Let's try. And I was like well what's his bit? And you were doing this bit about. Hey there. Delilah was that like damn long time ago? That's what I remember it. But the reason I was there actually was when I first started training for traffic on professionally started training with this guy named Phil cod. Who was training a couple of UFC fires at time. You remember? It's kind of Mike Pierce who fought? Sure. Yeah. Local Portland guys. Well, and so I didn't know a lot about MS still certainly I'm not as well versed as you are. But I got in this gym, my coaches, like, hey, you're going to start training with these guys. And I was like, you know, what I'm a skinny little translate these guys like, you know, brawlers. But I was man was I impressed like talk about a multisport true multisport, right? All the different disciplines. I don't have to tell you this. But I was blown away about how strong they were became good buddies. And Mike said to me he was like, hey, man. I'm going to this comedy show. This guy named Joe Rogan's going to be doing his comedy com. Listen to you made me laugh back then so mad respect. And it was it was a fun fun to see into that world a little bit. Thanks, man. I guarantee you could do that. But if you still wanna do endurance things like please do something where you're not going to die. That's all. That's just. Yeah. Made it back. You're safe. It salad say the goal. I mean like I said the goal is not to keep one up myself. I mean, I think that's is that part of the danger of this kind of endeavor. It's you you really have one upped mean you've done some crazy one up in man. I sure like I said, I think that it if if I only thought of myself as a professional athlete, and that was my identity was tied up that I think we see that across the spectrum of professional athletes in general of people just going. Hey, I'm a pro athlete and the second. I'm not even if they'd banked millions of dollars as an NBA player or something like that their whole identity disappears with the feet of athleticism. I read a really interesting article today, I was really compelled by actually which was a story about Kevin Durant. That was on ESPN dot com this morning, and it's about him and his business manager and a couple other guys that have kind of gotten around him. And like, dude, you're like one of the best basketball players in the world MVP, but he's already thinking about all the various things that he's doing in his life. And what I loved about that article. Is there like, you know, sportscenter back in the day used to be. Guys, hitting home runs Dunkin baffles, which of course, is still is that, but though interspersed that with like Kevin Durant just made a venture investment in this company, or like, they're going this watermelon, you know, water brand or this or that. And so I think sports particularly with the growth of social media was storytime with media with content with all the other ways, we can share the insights, which isn't just the game which isn't just me in the arena pulling the sled, but it's actually way to connect with people. Whether that's in the sense of Kevin Durant. Making incredible venture investments in companies or that's with storytelling that actually reaches. Universal truths with people. You know, I've got a single mother from Nebraska reaching out to me and saying like, hey, I don't care about mountains or the outdoors. But like I'm going through some hard stuff like in the middle of the country in a single mother in your story connects with me thank you for giving the inspiration to keep pushing forward. So for me it extends beyond just this athlete in this arena. Because we have all these other ways to story tell to create content to, you know, be involved in businesses and things like that. So that's where my mind's at next. It hasn't fully crystallized into the. Most concrete of plans, but they ability to explore all these different mediums and just having sort of the sports be the catalyst for growth in that way. What I'm really passionate about. That's awesome men. Whatever your plans are one hundred percent confidence in you. You're an inspiration, man. Thank you very much. Thanks, brother. Appreciate it man and tell everybody your Instagram how to get a hold of you on social media. Yeah. Follow along. It's just my name at Kolon o'brady. Also, my website is just my name calling him Brady dot com. Got a list on there. Like, I said, I'm working on a book. There's lots of juicy details that I have is shared yet. So if you're interested in that, you know, popular Email address, and they will keep you posted when that comes out next year, but at Colin o'brady or call Nebraska dot com. Come come say. Hi, beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, everyone for tune into the podcast and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to ZipRecruiter ZipRecruiter. Ladies and gentlemen. You could try it for free. Yes. For free. That's how confident they are that you're gonna use it again because it is. In fact, the shit you can try ZipRecruiter for free ZipRecruiter so effective that eighty percent of employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site within the first day, they send your job to over one hundred of the web's leading job boards and with their powerful matching technology. Ziprecruiter scans thousands of resumes. The fine people with the right experience and invite them to apply for your job, and you can try it for free. Go to ZipRecruiter dot com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash R. O G A N, Zip Recruiter dot com slash Rogan. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Smartest motherfucker. Not just smart smartest. 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