20 Episode results for "Richard Evans"

Plants of the Gods  Ayahuasca, Shamanic Knowledge, Coca, and the Adventures of Richard Evans Schultes (#508)

The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

1:33:56 hr | 7 months ago

Plants of the Gods Ayahuasca, Shamanic Knowledge, Coca, and the Adventures of Richard Evans Schultes (#508)

"Hello boys and girls ladies and germs slots in jaguars. This is rainforest. Themed this is tim ferriss. Welcome to the tim. Ferriss show where it is. Usually my job's deconstruct world class performers. All different types to tease out the routines habits etc. You can apply to your own life. This time around. I am passing the microphone to someone else. We have a very special edition featuring not one three short episodes of the plants of the gods podcasts brand new who stood by my friend and pass podcast guest. Dr mark plotkin. I've listened to all of his episodes and chose a few favorites to share with you. Also who is mark. Mark plotkin on twitter at doc. Mark plotkin p. t. k i n. is an ethnobotanist who serves as the president of the amazon conservation team which has partnered with roughly eighty tribes in south america map and improve management and protection of roughly one hundred million acres of incestual rainforests. We've done some work together. In the past he's best known to the general public as the author of the book. Tales of a shaman's apprentice recommended. One of the most popular books ever written about the amazon rainforest. His most recent book is the amazon subtitle. What everyone needs to know you can find my interview with mark at tim blog forward slash mark plotkin. I'm excited to share with you. These episodes from plants of the gods for million reasons these specific episodes cover the adventures and skills and belief systems of the legendary ethnobotanist. Richard evans shelties an episode. On wasco. and on coca and cocaine these episodes cover a lot fascinating grounds. Many facets of plants. botany history. It goes on and on if you enjoy them and what more. Be sure to check out the plants of the gods podcast. Wherever podcasts can be found you can learn about everything from hallucinogenic snuffs to diverse formulations of sharara plant mixture which relaxes the muscles of the body including the diaphragm That leads to s fixation. Used for hunting and all sorts of other things now in modern anesthesia. Anesthesiology the heck herbs of medieval europe. And what those were used for what they are reported to have been used for and how they're depicted in artwork and much much more wind. Did you know that wine red wine specifically has particular. i believe. Anti microbial antibacterial effects. It goes on and on so you can learn a lot through this. Podcast i ripped through it. Just benched through it and a handful of days. Please enjoy this episode of the tim. Ferriss show featuring plants of the gods. This episode is brought to you by tunnel. That's t. o. N. a. l. Tonal is the world's most intelligent home gym and personal trainer. That's the tagline from their website. 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A special offer on top of their all in one formula which is a free vitamin d supplement and five free travel packs with your first subscription purchase. Many of us are deficient in vitamin d. I found that true for myself which is usually produced in our bodies from sun exposure so adding vitamin d supplement to your daily routine is a great option for additional immune support support your immunity gut health and energy by visiting athletic greens dot com slash. Tim you'll receive up to a year supply vitamin d and five free travel pack with your subscription again that's athletic greens dot com slash. Tim optimal at this altitude. I can run flat out for half mile before my start. Shake question now. It is messiah organism living. Show the larussa want to focus this episode on my mentor. Richard evans shelties often known as the father of ethanol. Botany and anytime schulte's was addressed that way. He was quick to point out. That ethnobotanist began with an expedition launched by an egyptian pharaoh to the land of punt somalia in search of frankencense tris. And he wasn't quite that old nonetheless. He was a towering figure. In fact the towering figure in twentieth century ethnobotanist. Now it was warm september. Night in nineteen seventy four. When i entered his classroom the classroom was like an ethnographic museum. One wall was covered with huge green maps or the amazon from the rafters hung amazonian indian. Dance costumes with glistening. Black demon faces too long. Parallel display cases linked the room filled to overflowing with botanical booty from around the world. Black palm slogans from columbia chinese silver hashish pipes from india in tiny bows and arrows from the congo presiding. Over the tableau was professor. Schulte's himself tall crew cut and dressed in an immaculate white lab coat white drescher crimson tie and silver wire rim glasses as he called the class to order and began to show his slides. One picture in particular changed my life forever. A scene in which three indians in grass skirts and bark cloth masks danced at the edge of jungle clearing quote. Here you see. Three into the kuna tribe doing the sacred. Kera dance under the influence of plants to keep away the forces of darkness. The one on the left has a harvard degree next slide. Please from matt moment on. I and many many others hooked on plants. Ethanol botany indigenous peoples and the amazon rainforest. Shelters without question was not only an incredible inspiration to a students but the greatest botanical explorer of the amazon and the twentieth century he survived plane crashes boat sinkings bandits hunger dysentery and repeated bouts of malaria but always insisted he never had any adventures in the amazon shelties lived in travel with forest peoples for almost fourteen years sometimes amongst tribes. That had never seen a white man before. At one point he was gone for so long. That friends in the colombian capital of bogie tied giving them up for dead. They were in the process of arranging memorial services in his honor when he reappeared at the national herbarium frightening more than a few of his fellow. Bought us ethnobotanist taxonomic writer and photographer. Shelties is widely regarded as a great conservationist as well in december of forty one. He entered the amazon on a mission to study. How indigenous peoples us plants for medicinal ritual and practical purposes. He went on to spend so much time with these indigenous peoples that he created a relationship or relationships with them equalled by few people in the western scientific community is very focus was the northwest amazon. An area that remained largely unknown uninfluenced by the outside world isolated by the end to the west and dense jungles and impassable rapids on all other sides in this remote area shelties lived amongst low little study tribes mapped uncharted rivers and was the first ientist to explore some areas that have not been researched since his notes and photographs are some of the only existing documentation of digital cultures in the region of the amazon. On the cusp of change. And let me refer you to do. Richard schulte's storybook map on the amazon team website. Amazon team dot org. This multifaceted multimedia presentation of his life and adventures has to be seen to be appreciated. This is created by the amazon conservation team under the leadership in this case of the cartographer. Brian hitler so me talk a little bit about what schulte's was like to the people around him. Let me start with the students. In the words of dr paul cox who was an entering graduate student at harvard. Nineteen seventy seven. He was looking for thesis adviser which graduates students to somebody to study under essentially a mentor and he received some very disturbing advice. He was told by one professor. There whatever you do. Stay away from richard evans shelties. He's been a decade alone in the amazon. He's a dinosaur and he's dangerous to otherwise. Could students way davis an undergraduate at the time said to the undergraduate students. That shelties was a hero in an age without heroes and in the seventies or eighties. It was the first ethnic botanical. Congress in latin america held in mexico and much of the tenor of the discussion was how the mexicans and other latinos resented the fact that all of these gringos coming down there and doing all these studies and that the latinos should study their own plants and their own indigenous peoples and i had to smile when the proceedings were published. And here's the dedication pot richard evans. Schulte's king aprio el camino for richard shelties. Who blazed the trail so scholte's was beloved by the undergraduate students by the graduate students by many. If not most if not all of us latin colleagues but i think most important of all is how he is regarded by the indigenous peoples themselves. Now i've been to oklahoma. Were solti studied. Peyote and i've lived in oaxaca where solti studied the magic mushrooms and i have spent decades going back and forth to the northwest amazon. Were shelties did his most important fieldwork of all and where he made. The scientific discovery of iowa osco. And so let me tell you what. The indigenous peoples told me in oklahoma in mexico and in the amazon shelties was the first white person we met who not only treated us with respect but actually wanted to learn from us by our side. He dan star sacred dances. Eight peyote chewed our coca and drank our i oscar. We loved him. Shelties began his career in one thousand nine hundred thirty three as a poor kid in east. Boston got us scholarship to attend harvard and because he was a scholarship student had to do a work. Study job so at the time he was interested in medicine and remember at that point in time medicine and botany were very much intricately intertwined so he went to look for work. Study job at the botanical museum. Which stands today on oxford street just north of harvard yard and looks the exact same as the day the solti showed up on the doorstep looking for a job. He was actually born in east boston. And it's a particularly interesting part of his backstory. His father was german. His mother was english and he was born and raised in east boston. Oh east boston. At the time was essentially an italian and irish ghetto soltys was already an outsider and how to live and get along with other communities i think was fundamental to his development and is beginning in his training as an ethnobotanist now when he was about ten he got very sick. I don't know what exactly he had. I've talked to his son. Neil who's esteemed biologists in his own. Right nobody sure what it was but he was bedridden for months and his father otto was anxious that young richard not lose any time while he was bedridden so he went four blocks south of the house to the east boston public library which still stands and pull the book off. The shelf called notes of a botanist on the amazon and the andes and this was essentially the autobiography richard spruce who became shelties hero and schulte's read about spruce is fourteen years in the amazon. And in the end these he was the first scientist to encounter wasco. And i can assure you. The schulte's was the only ten year old in east boston reading about iowa's in those times now. At the botanical museum shelties quickly fell under the sway of the director. A boston patrician by the name of oakes ames this being the thirties. The depths of the depression natural history museums were kept afloat by wealthy men. The pockets aims took a special liking to solti and really took him on essentially as an apprentice now in ames famous class bio one of four plants and humans affairs at schulte's went on to teach himself aims announced that each student will have to do a term paper and there would have to do it based on a book at the back of the classroom. Shelties later told me as the only work study kid in the class. I had less free time than the other students so as soon as clashes over a race to the back and pulled the smallest book off the shelf and that book was called moskal the divine plant and its psychological effects heinrich louver essentially. It was an account of peyote. Solti brought the book home to eat boston bed at that night and he said decades later i can still recall the dazzling accounts of the visions induced by the peyote. Cactus and i've out that one day. I would try it myself well. He turned in such an impressive paper. That aims reach deep down into his pockets and financed an expedition to oklahoma to visit the kiowa. People's some of the last of the plains tribes living a traditional lifestyle. And so that shelties could experience peyote. In its ritual. Settings shortages had never been west of the hudson. So this really was Engine country as he referred to it and he made the trek in an old studebaker across country with a graduate student named western labar. Who became famous in his own right. He wrote a classic paper. Called shimon. origins of religion and medicine did lebron. I hardly recommend it anyhow. They spent a night in the teepee. Taking peyote in a ritual setting led by with the cairo call roadman essentially shaming and nineteen. Thirty six shelties came out of that. Tb a changed person. Clearly the peyote talked to him clearly. He realized that he was not going to medical school that he would be on the healing path but it would be a different path than other western scientists interested in a profession which involved bringing medicine to the masses. Shelties finished his degree at harvard with honors and then applied to study further with ames entered a phd program. And for his thesis. He went down to oaxaca at the time. There are accounts of hallucinogenic mushrooms. Now at the time nobody believe there were hallucinogenic mushrooms there was amanita mascara that will talk about an another episode from siberia. But other than that. There were no known hallucinogenic mushrooms in the new world in mexico in central america in the amazon and a smithsonian scientists named william stafford said that there were no hallucinogenic mushrooms. It was just peyote it. Was the indians trying to mislead the missionaries. Shelties was a better botanist than stafford. And he knew there would be no peyote which thrives desert-like conditions. There'd be no peyote in the tropical forests of oaxaca in southern mexico and he set out to prove safran wrong. So here's how shelties described taking with the kiowa began with a period of contentment and oversensitivity. A period of nervous calm and muscular sluggishness then came the colored visual hallucinations and abnormal sinister. Ezio the mingling of the census alterations tactile sensation bracelet. Muscular coordination disturbances in space and time. Perception and auditory hallucinations may accompany severe. Peyote intoxication the most striking characteristic however is the occasionally induced peyote visions which are often fantastically colored. There's two things that are particularly noteworthy about this count. One is the striking visions which he discovered by reading about them and unlike most people he pursued it and experienced that himself. The other is the idea of sinister asia. And this is characteristic of many of these anthea. Jin's the mingling of senses. Were you can see music and taste colors to purchase dr mark. Hawkins new book the amazon. What everyone needs to know or his first book. Tales of a shaman's apprentice visit your local bookseller order from amazon dot com. Sheltie brought the magic mushrooms back to harvard. Were later analyzed by albert. Hoffman over hoffman. Of course fellow who synthesized lsd one thousand nine thirty eight and did it in part on compounds extracted from these magic mushrooms. But there's another aspect to the story which is not very well known and that is that hoffman also synthesized the first betablockers. I think the very first one is called viskhan. This is a multibillion. Dollar class of drugs and hoffman. Did it in part inspired by the compounds. He extracted from these magic mushrooms. So when we talk about plans to god's or fungi of the gods we're not just talking about compounds which may be useful for treating mental or emotional illness. We're talking about compounds which have revolutionized western medicine and western culture as discussed in the episode on ergot. These compounds may have played a vital role in the beginnings of western religions. In addition to many of the aboriginal ones as well now when you visit shelties in his lair in his office at the botanical museum you couldn't help but notice to pictures over his shoulders behind him on the wall of his office. Shelties was a great photographer. If you haven't seen his photographs is strongly encourage you to pick up. A book called plans to the gods. I think he was as great a photographer ansel adams and he was taking those pictures and much more challenging circumstances over his shoulder to the left is a picture of to you kuna boys snuffing tobacco snuff during the sacred kayak dance to keep away. The forces of darkness on the right was to be kennedy. Should he be kept is thanks primarily to shelties is indigenous colleagues in the colombian government subsistence from the amazon conservation. Team is the largest rainforest protected area in the whole amazon basin. The reason this is important is was showing the importance of culture and the importance of nature. This led to the creation of an entire field known as bio cultural conservation. It's not about protecting indigenous cultures or just about protecting healing plants. It's the combination of the two. Which is the most holistic the most demonic and the most effective schulte's did his training at the botanical museum. The botanical museum is actually part of a complex. It is the peabody museum. Which is an thr- apology. The mineralogical museum which has geology the botanical museum and the zoology museum now. These raw group together known as the harvard museums natural history. But the museum gotta start under the leadership of louis agassi. Louis agassi was a very famous. Swiss biologist came to boston to give some lectures and they were so well received that he was offered a job at harvard and he worked with harvard and some of their donors to create the museum. A comparison while at the time this is one of if not the finest natural issue museums in the world. Certainly in north america now agassi in eighteen sixty five decided to launch an expedition to the amazon. There's became the biggest natural history expedition. The amazon in the nineteenth century and he was accompanied by several museum people and several of his students the most famous of which was william. James william james is known today as the father of american psychology. But i believe that it was james experience in the amazon with the we agassi the led to his understanding of the human mind. Keep in mind bat. William james was rich bus donation white kid who hung out with other rich white kids. Who's idea of cultural. Diversity was going to europe and hanging out with rich white kids in the amazon. He was living and working. In collecting with indigenous peoples with afro brazilians with brazilian military with portuguese. Royalty and i believe that this is what led james to understand that we are all one and learn to understand different aspects of the human mind part of the amazon story. Part of the history of psychology under reported in the technical literature. And i recommend a classic paper called the biology of consciousness written by my pal brian farrell. Who is the number to director at the harvard museum of natural history. It's the biology of consciousness. From william james to richard solti. This is easily findable on my personal website. Mark plotkin dot com. These most enduring work in terms of publications. Was the book plans. So the gods which in many ways was the inspiration for this podcast and he co authored. With albert hoffman the creator of lsd and their basic. Shes was these. Plants played a fundamental role in our history our culture and our religion and that we're still not only understanding their role in the past. But we're charting a course for the future with the understanding of the power and the healing potential of these plants from central america from oaxaca shoulders having graduated with a phd from harvard went to the amazon and nineteen forty one and he was in search of arrow poisons sure then becoming important in western medicine arrow poisons or the embodiment of paris else's dictum that the dose makes the poison in other words. Poison in one does is a medicine in a smaller dose vice versa. Shelties got to columbia started poking about doing some collecting on his first day. In bogota he took the subway to the end of the line and started looking at plants. In the rainforests they're growing and some hills at the end of the line and saw an orca that he'd never seen before schulte's was at the time an expert on orchids and he shall this tiny orchid which he thought must be new to science. But he didn't have his plan press so the only way he could preserve it was to take out his passport. Gently pressed this little. Tiny orchid between the pages of this passport brought it back and found that it was indeed a species new to science. I think you'll agree. This is a very auspicious beginning to his long career with colombia and the colombian amazon shortly thereafter pearl harbor was bombed and shelties is a patriotic american. Went back to bogota reported for duty at the american embassy and said i'm here to enlist the ambassador. Said forget about that. We have other plans for you. The japanese have overrun the rubber plantations. In southeast asia. Now rubbers native to the amazon but it grows in plantation. Where there's no natural pests in southeast asia was planted there by the british. Rubber is mental to any war effort back then even today natural rubber. It cannot be replaced by synthetic rubber. Should they should instead of going off to fight in europe or the pacific. Go back to the amazon find out. How much rubber. There is figure out how to cut it to supply rubber for the war effort. The american mainstay of the infantry was a sherman tank or sherman tank could take up to a ton of rubber between wires and breaks and all that other stuff so it was a bit like throw me in nebraska patch because they sent schulte's back to the amazon to study the forest work with indigenous peoples and collect rubber one of the first tribe who work with the co pham who were master kuwari makers he was able to collect many different forms of carey. In fact it later years solti sent a student a graduate student to continue studying with fans and he actually found a cure. An arrow poison made from a nutmeg cinnamon tree. This is totally on reported. Prior to pink leigh's groundbreaking work another important finding amongst the coffin. Which was made by shelties himself. Was that of yoko. Yoko is a forest liana. I've taken this with the co that collect early on in the forest. They scraped the bark into cold water. You drink it first thing in the morning. It's such a powerful stimulant that your fingertips tingle and you don't get hungry or thirsty all day co fon insist that if you take yoko. You don't get malaria either. Remember that the first and most effective malaria drug ever discovered quinine which comes just west of there from the andes so this is something whose research needs to be followed up. I'm very proud of back that the amazon conservation team my organization partnered with the co fan pupil about ten years to sit up the retail andy's but additional plant sanctuary an entirely new category of protected area established at the behest of the indigenous peoples themselves in partnership with the colombian government to protect yoko and other medicinal plants. Shelties most important finding in terms of biodiversity. Where's the landscapes of chidi. Kitty he be day was an extraordinary region. Right in the middle of the colombian amazon. You have to keep in mind. The colombian amazon we americans tend to think of the amazon is basically brazil with a couple of suburbs and these other countries but the colombian amazon is bigger than new england. It's a huge bass and right in the middle of the columbia. Amazon is a region known as tree to be kept away. It is a region full of unexplored. An unclaimed mountains region home to we think three on contacted tribes it is region which is the richest repository pre-columbian paintings. There are thousands of thousands and thousands of these paintings which had been very poorly documented today. And schulte's there and was bewitched and he kept a picture of you to be kept a over his desk his entire time at harvard. Interestingly enough shelties was not the discover of shooter weekday and of course there's enough no botanist. We always have to point out. We don't discover anything. Indigenous peoples got their first. But when i say scholte's was discover of iowa oscar. I mean that the indigenous peoples showed it to him and gave it to him and led the ceremony with him. When i say that schulte's discovered she to be kept away from a western perspective. Further research has revealed that it was another harvard fellow who got their first an extraordinary character name alexander hamilton. Rice alexander hamilton. Rice was a patrician. He was one of boston's first families. Born into wealth. You went to harvard college extraordinary character. One point he was a professional boxer. He loved one thing more than anything in that was travel. He decided to recreate the journeys of the voyagers in eastern canada and made incredible trek overland paddling and driving his canoe and that is where his wanderlust was born. He went back to harvard finished his undergraduate degree and entered medical school however once again nature called and as i great expedition was to recreate the trip of oriana which i think was fifteen twenty one. It was the first european crossing amazon. He landed in coastal ecuador crossed the andes and sailed all the way down the on his second trip to south. America was to recreate bolivars famous trek from caracas to bogota overland and he was accompanied by a fellow who wanna learn how to be a south american explorer. And his name was hiram bingham bingham later went on to discover much. Up chew and became much more famous than alexander. Hamilton rice server was. But i don't think he ever would have got there if he had been trained in the field by rice himself. Rice made the first map of cheetah in nineteen o seven went back to harvard and created the harvard geographic institute and married mrs widener one of the wealthiest women in the world who built widener library and harvard named after her son new drowned on the titanic and her money turbocharged his career because he relies that. If you wanted to map the amazon. It's easiest to do it from the air and began using her wealth to custom build planes and map the amazon from the air. That was the first mapping of chikurubi kathy and ironically preceded schulte's expirations and exploit by several decades the next formative experience shelties had the amazon was the beila demoniac. Oh this is the dance of the dolls. The dance of the spirits where the kuna peoples dance for three days to propitiate for his spirits and to give thanks to nature for the bounty particularly of the rivers force fish when as shelties the details of the dance and he said it's three days i thought. Okay that's like nine to five nine to five nine. You said no three days without stopping. When i asked him how they danced for three days without stopping he said each dance honors a particular spirit or particular animal and then at the end of that dance which can be twenty minutes to an hour more or less they stopped take off their masks and snort tobacco and chew coca shelties most extraordinary ethnic botanical. Finding the amazon took place in the valley in one thousand nine hundred forty two. The sieben valley is the headwaters of the tamayo. their four great rivers in the colombian amazon. The putumayo the kakuta the pores and the vow pez the headwaters of the putumayo or the sieben valley which is known as the valley of the hallucinogens for that is where schulte's met shaming of the come sod trod called salvator chinoy in schulte's took i o osco in a ritual setting was salvador. Dali now shelties was famous for saying and for writing in never felt anything from iowa couple of flashes of color. If you read the papers which i'm not a great fan of has a huge following. This is william burroughs account. Sheltie says two boroughs was a harvard. Classmate sorry bill. I just saw some flashes of color. No big deal so ethnobotanist always worried how. This father routes no botany. This so called discover scientific discovery of wasco never felt the effects and about ten years ago. I was in bogota and i was visiting. His roussy draw. Sheltie passed away. I think in the two thousand a visiting his usage. Robo wanna shelties old botanical colleagues. Said why did you never feel the effects of iowa oscar and he smiled and said he did and i can prove it. He looked at me. And the i n. said one week ago right on that chair. You're sitting was pedro. Hebrew on our pedroia was shelties. Guide in the cba doria and his uncle was salvador. Chinoy and i asked pedro this same question. How come ricardo never felt the effects of iowa and he said pedro relied. I was there the night. My uncle salvador gave ricardo. I o oscar for the first time. And i watched shelties sat in the hammock and laughed and sang and told stories the entire time and he drove had. What did he say. what did he say. And pedro shook his head and said i don't know it was all in english. Shelties legacy lives on in ways. First and foremost is respect for indigenous colleagues. Time and time again. I talked to elderly. Indigenous healers who said shelties was the first white man who came to us wanting to learn from us shelties. Dan star dances. Shelties took our peyote shelties shooter. Coca shelties took our iowa's shelties took our snuff. This was unheard of at the time. The only outsiders we saw for the most part what missionary told us that all of those things were bad. We should stop doing it. Not quite the opposite instead of telling us what to do. He wanted to learn from us. Secondly schulte's legacy is nature is the ultimate medicine chest. There are medicines to be learned from nature. Which can heal our ills. Even ills which physicians cannot cure can sometimes be treated in sometimes be cured by indigenous. Shame whether with peyote whether it's with mushrooms rather with higher wasco or whether it just by chanting to the shaven loosen agenda the entheogen is a vegetable or fungal or biological scalpels which allows him or her to analyze to diagnose treat and sometimes to cure the human mind in ways that our own physicians cannot shelties other lesson to academics in particular and western is dealing with other cultures is humility. These people are different than us that these people may not have had the advantages we have but times particularly in the rainforest. These people know far more than we do. So in that sense in an age where the outside world is discovering the value and the potential of the plants of the gods richard evans shelties got there before we did and the digitals people's got there before he did just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This sultry episode is brought to you by linked in sales navigators many listeners. It's podcast no. My first position was in sales after college. I thought it was important to become a dealmaker and improve very important. I was at true sin. Works long ago which was based in san jose california and i wish. I wish i had something like lincoln sales navigator when i worked there. Lincoln sales navigator on lincoln is really linked in on steroids or as the official copy puts the best version of linked in for sales professionals tap into the power of lincoln. Seven hundred million plus member network. Lincoln sales navigator gives you twenty monthly in mail messages lead recommendations unlimited searches actionable insights in news and access to free courses on linked in learning. So in my case. I was targeting. Ceo's and cto's of other companies want to know who they knew. I want to know what they were reading what they were writing etc. You get all of this in lincoln sales navigator all of that is at your fingertips target the right prospects and decision-makers unlocking fifteen percent more pipeline from source opportunities a seventeen percent lift when saving leads on sales navigator and forty two percent. Larger deal sizes. Start your sixty day free trial. That's a two month. Free trial of lincoln sales navigator today by going to lincoln dot com slash navigator. That's lincoln dot com slash navigator to start your sixty day. Free trial of lincoln navigator. Check it out. Lincoln dot com slash navigator. Everyone on mark plotkin. Dr mark plotkin amazon conservation team. I'm an ethnobotanist. A scientist who studies the uses of plants fungi and even animals from additional purposes in the rainforests of central and south america. I've been doing this for almost forty years. I amer. i was a student of the great harvard. Ethnobotanist richard of in schulte's often called the father of ethno botany. I dropped out of college after my freshman year and started working in a museum at harvard. Essentially as gopher enrolled in a night school course on the botany chemistry of hallucinogenic plants taught by professor shelties himself. And i've been hooked ever since the point of this. Podcast is to teach and to learn about the hallucinogenic empty genyk mind altering substances used by shames and other healers around the world with a heavy emphasis on the rainforest and to be able to share some of what. I've learned some of what i've seen both answers and questions with people who have an interest in this topic. Now i learned from professor. Schulte's if you want to save the rainforests you have to save the indigenous peoples of the rain forest and if you want to save the indigenous peoples of the rainforest you not only have to work in partnership with all of them you particularly have to partner with the shame in themselves. This is what we called bio cultural conservation. It's not about saving rainforests or saving. Shame it's they are intricately linked and if you look at the best rainforest left in the amazon. It tends to be not in national parks but indigenous reserves so indigenous peoples from the view of the amazon conservation team or the glue that holds the forest intact and shame or the glue that holds the indigenous cultures intact when missionaries go in the first person they attack and typically try to undercut is the shame in the medicine manner. Medicine woman who as i said is the cultural glue that holds the the tribe and the tribal culture together and it's the tribal culture that holds the rainforest in place. And we'll be talking more about that to the course of this podcast. Now as i said. I followed in the footsteps of professor. Schulte's who was a pioneer in many aspects of plan to the gods partnering with albert hoffman. The chemist who invented lsd to write the classic book plants of the gods which are highly recommend. Shelties was the first scientist to study. Iowa's go take iowa institute in place in a tribal setting and go through ceremonies many iowa ceremonies with the indigenous peoples themselves. And let me read for you. My favorite quote of shelties on iowa. There's a magic intoxicant in the northwest amazon. In which the indians believe can free soul from corporal confinement and allow it to wander free and return to the body. it will the soul. Bus untrammelled liberates. Its owner from the everyday life and introduces him or her to wondrous realms of what he considers reality and permits him or hurt to communicate with his ancestors. The kitchen term for this abbreviating drink i- awash it divine of the soul and refers to this freeing of the spirit now i oscar and many other hallucinogens. And anthea jen's are coming to the fore studies and we'll get into this and of course the podcast are now indicating that the birth of many if not most religions or rooted in these types of magical plants or other hallucinogenic properties found in fungi and in some cases even animals. There's a new book coming out. Called the immortality key that i recommend by a fellow named brian rura rescue which talks about the origins of christianity and the genetic fungi there indications. Some of the beginnings of judaism may be rooted in these mind altering substances as well. But as i said there's fodder for more discussions of this. The most significant medical development in terms of western medicine recently has been the mainstreaming of hallucinogens into our own western medicine. Hallucinogens are the shamanic medicine. Par excellence but now they're finding their way almost magically almost shimon undecly into very traditional halls of western medicine these hallucinogens in the tropical forest permit medicine men and women to investigate diagnose treat and sometimes cure ailments that have a partial emotional response basis which is why they can sometimes alleviate a medical issue unresponsive to the therapies of western physician in a sense hallucinogens or vegetable or fungal scalpels hs which allow the shame in defined analyzed treat and sometimes cure emotional issues which our own physicians cannot the recent creation of the center for psychedelic consciousness. Research at johns hopkins university supported in part by my buddy tim ferriss as well. As similar efforts underway at other prominent universities like yale and then y you sh- monica medicine is rapidly shifting from being considered unconventional Non-effective primitive to conventional. It is becoming part of conventional medicine many the initial evaluations from the western medical perspective and focused on masculine. Which is of course from mexican. Peyote we'll be talking about later. Podcast suicide simon from magic mushrooms and iowa itself these mind altering remedies have been clinically shown clinically proven to produce promising therapeutic effects in some cases of addiction. Depression and even. Ocd clinicians are equally enthused about the possibilities of experimenting with these therapies to treat ailments as diverse as anorexia early stage alzheimer's insomnia and even ptsd one of the most terrible afflictions of our troops. The late stanislav graaf a pioneer in the field of psychotherapy. I love this quote was fond of saying that psychedelics or to psychology the same way. The telescopes are to astronomy. Microscopes are to the study of bacteria this newfound interest in a hallucinogenic. Therapies is not only improving our understanding of the human mind it also driving an enhanced appreciation of the effectiveness of shamanic healing now my organization. The amazon conservation team was founded on many of these precepts. We believe the chairman or some of the most accomplished healers the we don't believe it. We know it and they can sometimes treat and even cure ailments which western medicine cannot. This was taught to me. This was taught to us by the late professor. Schulte's and we were specifically set up to partner with indigenous cultures particularly shamanic cultures to protect indigenous culture and indigenous rainforest. And we at act find more about us on the web at amazon dot. Org have been able to partner with many of the original iowa tribes like become so which is a tribe that i taught iowa to scholte's this e owners the quarter guatieri the co funds and the inga and the amazon conservation. Team works with them to this day. The importance of this type of conservation based on the shamanic precepts is already been manifested in two concrete examples. We have partnered with our indigenous colleagues in the northwest amazon as well as the colombian government to establish the orito indie wosse floral sanctuary with the co pham tribe in the colombian amazon as well as the establishment of the indie washy protected area with the gun tribe. This was perhaps the first co managed area in the northwest amazon between indigenous peoples in the outside world just like the indy wasi reserve was the first sanctuary set up to protect sacred plants like iowa oscar and yoko which is a tribal stimulant. We have worked with these tribes with our colombian colleagues in academia and the government to move up manage and enhanced protection over five hundred square miles of indigenous ancestral rainforest to purchase. Dr mark hawkins new book the amazon. What everyone needs to know or his first book tales of shaman's apprentice visit your local bookseller order from amazon dot com. So i wanna talk a bit more about what is iowa and its importance and increasing importance in the world today and what it teaches us about healing what it teaches about anthea. Genyk plants and fungi. What it teaches us about tribal knowledge. This was a plant. This was ileana i discovered. And of course as a solti seth. no botanist. don't discover anything. We just right with our indigenous colleagues. Teach us we write it down. It's now become global in. Its reach from argentina to australia from israel to istanbul. This once obscure amazonian liana admixed with a few other species is now celebrated even venerated as a plant of power knowledge and healing which has already gone to state recognized. Religions in brazil is first and foremost ileana called ir wasco in the northwest amazon. Its scientific name. As beneficiary offices copy and that honors the indigenous name in the northwest corner of brazil the indigenous tribes and jason tribes across the border into columbia. Call a copy. When scientists works and respect indigenous culture and wisdom she or he typically develops a scientific name based on the indigenous name to honor their knowledge. And that's why it's called. Banish jerry ops copy the vine is also known as yeah. Hey why eight g. E. is predominantly known by this name in colombia ecuador and peru. And it's also known in wasco in other parts of brazil where it's become a state both of these new religions any of these names may refer to the liana itself or to the potions which featured this liana as well as the admixtures the origins of iowa oscar impossible to turn because very few things fossilising the rainforest for complex ecological reason. However there are abundant archaeological finds a figure snuff trays snuff tubes and snuff residue that prove that hallucinogenic plant us in the western amazon. In western south america goes back at least as far as two thousand bbc. E schulte's wrote the drink employed for prophecy. Divination sorcery and medical purposes is so deeply rooted in native mythology. That can be no doubt of its great age as part of our original life. The ethnobotanist constantino tours. Who is in the thirty. Not only on iowa but also hallucinogenic snuffs recorded some of the first documentation of which was by jesuit. Missionary named jose sean today. E as far back as sixteen. Seventy five sean. Today he had a wrote quote the diviner that is the shaming hangs hammock in the middle of the roundhouse the maloka and a bench or small platform and next to it places. A hellish brew called iowa oscar remarkably effective in depriving of the senses. He makes a tee of divine after which much boiling will become very thick and bitter. It is so strong it disrupts judgement even in small quantities. Typically there's missionaries reaction to his experience is in keeping with the response of most ecclesiastic chroniclers when they encountered mind altering plants and fungi employed by indigenous peoples. In the new world the clergy quickly demonized and condemn these substances and mixtures. Whether it was peyote in the north magic mushrooms and central america. I o oscar yopu and a pain a hallucinogenic snuffs and amazon. Equally characteristic to the missionary reaction is what transpired when the very first batna stumbled upon an iowa oscar ceremony among the tukhanen people's on the prowl pez river in the north west of brazil near the colombian border. This is richard spruce. One of the great botanists in the history of amazonia spruce took a small drink of the copy mixture and did not have the same deep spiritual experience. The shelties later. Who did it many times. But after the ceremonies bruce ventured into the forest to collect the vine and flower which was necessary for making a precise identification. Botanist cannot take a piece of a vine in typically identify it indigenous peoples can take a piece of the line and not only identify the name of the vine the you the use of the vine. They'll tell you where it grows. Tell you what soil type at likes. It tells you when it flowers what pollinates it and what the seeds look like spruce realize this representative species unknown to science and he named it bama story copy honoring the to canola name. I said was copy now. One of the great and under studied aspects of the plants the gods of the hallucinogenic substances is add mixtures which are plants. Typically plants sometimes insects and into the potion with the intention of altering the type intensity and duration of experience they represent a complex fascinating aspects of the story. in fact we've been able to document over one hundred different plants from forty. Different families added to the iowa brew. Most of these i said are flowering plants. So the one jim nez sperm conifer essentially and other is a fern. There's also records of snake fangs. Snake poison frogs being added. It is a rich field for further research. The two most important add metrics to iowa go or either the shrub Kuna which is a vine of the coffee family psycho trivia or the liana oklahoma heyday. Blop dimmer cover around a of the mouth piggy. Ac which is actually the same family as iowa's good self. What's interesting about these. Two is a czech kunas found throughout the amazon whereas okla hey is not so one of these admixtures is really found predominantly in the northwest amazon. Be others found throughout amazonia. As i said iowa itself traditionally is native to certainly the northwest amazon and quite possibly the western amazon is booked. Bronwyn gauge the botanical expert. On the malpensa. She found herself work with shelties. And she said at this point. We're still not sure of the original distribution of the iowa liana and now that it's being grown throughout the world. It makes it even more difficult. Now what's intriguing about these add. Mixtures is that they contain genetic trip to means which is another type of alkaloid chemical substance common in many plants Caffeine is an alkaloid. Strychnine is an alka. Loyd now these trip demeans prove inert consumed unless they are activated by the presence of compounds which are known as manoa oxidation. Inhibitors ma oh inhibitors. I o wasco contained psychotropic alkaloids of this type meaning. The combination of these plants produce strikingly more potent and profound effects than potion prepared from either species. How shames living in a rainforest comprising forty thousand species of plants discovered the appropriate blend to induce lead in visions and insights remains a shamanic riddle. Imagine being in a rainforest tens of thousands of plant species and figuring out which to go best together. This is an incredibly impressive chamonix achievement medical achievement wherever you want to look at it. Scientists simply cannot come up with an adequate explanation to the prism of western science and knowledge in the amazon. The brew is typically prepared by boiling the stem of the iowa vine with the admixture several hours producing a and highly bitter concoction which is then consumed in small doses approximately twenty minutes after the initial does the subject usually experiences the onset of dizziness and nausea often proceeding purge either vomiting or defecation which shames insist is part of the process. That you must clean your body of toxic substances and chairmans insists that many of the ills that afflict western society because we do not expel toxic substances like they do using a variety of plans often iowa oscar but not only iowa and there's many shimoni cultures that don't use iowa oscar purge themselves intentionally to cleanse themselves of toxins that. The body accumulates over time within the next hour visions commence often inducing fear stress and even terror infrequently followed by scenes of unsurpassed loveliness and spiritual illumination participants in traditional wasco sessions sometimes report the ability to communicate telepathically with the guiding the ceremony. So much so that. The first alkaloid isolated from iowa line was named telepathic. Now shelties often said that the difference between an ethnobotanist and an anthropologist is was machine leans forward and she or he offers you the brew containing i awa- osco or the snuff tubes containing yopu the hallucinogenic snuff or the magic mushrooms that the anthropologist typically says oh no. I can't do that i would. I would lose my objectively i would. I'd take notes. Whereas when the shame in passes it to the botanist sheer. He looks at the shame in and says yee haw. If you want to truly begin to understand shmona cultures enshrine keeling and the plan. So the gods and the fungi of god's and the magic frogs of the gods you need to experience the ceremony as the shame in as the indigenous people see it now whereas an ethnobotanist. I've been through probably eighty or ninety iowa's ceremonies always in a ritual. Context always led by shaming. Because these are plants of power and knowledge endangers. Well these are not plants or compounds to be trifled with and let me tell you about my worst iowa of all. I was in the middle of a ceremony with a come. Sasha shaming actually shame in from columbia and. I soon was able to realize that this was going to be a very very very bad trip. And i then found myself vomiting purple phosphorescent scorpions so anyone who thinks that this is going to be a fun. Ride anyone who thinks this is always going to be a world of wonder and magic and lots of fun is underestimating. What these types of journeys can consist of which is all the more reason why you need a god and when i finished with the most terrible night of my life going through this terrible terrible ceremony. I asked the shame in who was a friend and teacher why he is subjected to me to this and he said as a conservationist as a friend of the indigenous peoples you confront many challenges he said by experiencing you're deaf in a ritual fashion. You will no fear never fear death and travail ever again. I have prepared you for the path of the warrior and these are the depths of the emotions and the challenges mental and spiritual which all of us who have an interest in trying taking consuming. The plans to the gods must be ready to face. So let me conclude this podcast. With perhaps the most germane comment in terms of the history and the power of iowa's in particular and the plants of the gods. In general amazonian. Chairman's imbibe i o oscar to diagnose treat and cure illnesses in claim that the potion empowers them to see into the future ward off misfortune and provide protection against jealousy and negatively in the words of professor. Schulte's wasco can free the soul from confinement allow it to wander free and returned to the body at will i o oscar the vine of the soul refers to this freeing of the spirit the plants involved or truly the plants of the gods. Today we wanna talk about coca truly of plan to the gods. It's often confused with coconuts or cal. But coco is a family unique to south. America typically about a meter or too high and has been in use by indigenous peoples for thousands of years The latest finds i think. Indicate use of coco coca quaid's coca. That's been chewed about eight thousand years ago of all the plans to the gods coca is a master katori. That is a plant which is chewed by people. There are two types of master qataris. There is the mechanical that is plants or plant products which are chewed purely for mechanical reasons. Essentially it's just something enjoyable. It doesn't produce physiological response. A good example of that would be The resin of the red spruce tree which traditionally chewed by indigenous peoples in new england large resin which was popular amongst the indigenous peoples of siberia. And the best known of all which is chiefly which is the source of chewing gum cheek lay is a resident of this padilla tree which also produces a very tasty indigenous edible fruit and it is best known to the western world. It has had a major impact on our history in a very unique interesting way cheek lay. As i said was native to central america it was long chewed by indigenous peoples there and the commercialization of chocolate and chewing gum got. Its start with general. Santa ana the mexican hero of the alamo by the eighteen sixties. He was actually living in exile in brooklyn he was planning his return to his native country to relieve his tensions. He chewed a pile of which she brought from home. When it lasts he left. Staten island for mexico. He left a bunch of chico behind with his host. Thomas adams who was an amateur inventor adams initially tried to vulcanized the cheek. Layla with rubber to produce waterproof shoes. This failed hot weather caused the souls of the galoshes to stick to the pavement. His neck sprains formers to market the cheek late to the dental community. As denture adhesive. This also failed. Finally adams flatten chiefly with his wife. Rolling pin added sugar. Cut it into little pieces and put it into a brooklyn candy store for sale. The results were immediately snapped up as they say leading to the birth of a multi billion dollar chewing gum industry. Now there are two species of cocoa. As i said this to inter species in the genus earth land. But there's two species that are chewed as what we know is as coca leaves or cocoa powder and this work was originally done by tim plowman. Who was a student of shelties who spent about ten years in south america. Trying to figure out the coca story so plumbing. Broken down into four varieties coca erath rocks lund coca which is bolivian coca which is typical of the highland of the central and southern andes. The second variety is earth rock slim. Cocoa variety purdue. Which is the coca powder. I'll be talking quite a bit about the other. Species was november greenwich tennessee. Which plumbing broke into two varieties. There was no greenwich tension over benintendi which is colombian coca. Which is what the kogi indians of northern colombia chew and the final variety was november. Benintendi unc which is which grown around trujillo in peru which figures into coca cola. Which i'll be getting into now coca is known best as a powerful stimulant but it has many other benefits as well it. Suppresses hunger prevent altitude sickness and pain relief and is very rich in minerals vitamins and proteins. So means the people that are chewing this or chewing this for the stimulating effects. But also it's an important part of their diet. Especially amongst very poor societies like the miners and the highest parts of the andes. The kobi's the extraordinary people from northern colombia. This is not an amazon. These living in this here in nevada. It is a snow. Capped mountain overlooking the caribbean the only snowcapped mountain overlooking the ocean. As far as i know they are prodigious chewers of coca in fact coca is so central to their way of life that when one kogi meets another the typical offering is to open his coca bag which they're never without which is a hand woven fiber sack and his friend takes leaves out of there and choose them and vice versa. So it's the ultimate bonding exercise. As i said coca has been found as far back as eight thousand years ago and remember that when you make a find it doesn't mean that's exactly when it begins what it means is. It's older than eight thousand years ago. And one of the most famous cultures in terms of coca chewing from coastal peru northern coastal prude. That's much mo c. h. e. And they were famous for many things. Perhaps the most extraordinary is the tomb the tomb lord of saipan which has been called the king tut of the new world. It is an extraordinary temple complex with the king the lord of cpap on with several of his attendants think they've found coca in the tomb as well. But it's really worth having a look at some of the pictures. They've done facial reconstructions. They've done dna analysis. It's an extraordinary story and something which really needs to be seen to be appreciated. Also another spectacular fine was the lady of cousy. Ao which is a similar story and in terms of motorway pottery it is a depiction of many aspects of daily life many of which involve coca chewing when you see the heads of the most people in the larkhall harare museum in lima. Many of them have a big quit of coca stuffed under their left cheek. The other thing that's famous about their padres it's incredibly pornographic they depict all sorts of extraordinary Sexual acts and professor schulte's remarked on this by saying if they spent as much time performing these axes they did for trying them in pottery. Perhaps they wouldn't have died out now. Coca was brought to europe in the fifteen hundreds from south america and the became extremely popular all the way up to the nineteenth century. Sigmund freud was an early proponent promoting it uses a stimulant and a potential treatment for morphine addiction. Others who were big fans of coca included. Thomas edison ulysses s grant playwright henrik gibson and even jewels burn. They were primarily a fond of what was known as coca wine. Vamp mariani this was a wine that was produced in eighteen forty four for about fifty years and it had coke in it so your net not only had all the benefits of drinking wine. You had the powerful kick of the stimulant that is the extract of the coca leaf. That was put in it. Another reason the coca leaf became popular is an eighteen eighty six and atlantan drugs named john. Pemberton came up with a concoction of coca leaves. And kola nuts from africa which he called coca cola and it relieves deposit refreshes although it doesn't refreshes much as it used to because the cocaine has been taken out of it but a drink which had cocaine and kola nuts which are very rich and caffeine. We're definitely give you a powerful kick however as it became obvious that cocaine was highly addictive and therefore very dangerous cocaine was removed from many of the tonics in which was added in story. Ville my native new orleans you'll red light district in nineteen hundreds. I was very common to use cocaine tracks as pain reliever and for a variety of other ailments but these are the kinds of things which ones people understood better. The chemistry of what was going on. That cocaine was removed from many of these products. Interestingly enough coca and cocaine is still produced in enormous quantities around trujillo in northern peru and they take the cocaine out of it and use rest leaf as a flavoring for coca cola still however the drug which is widely used in optimal jokes. Surgery and intriguing inoperable cancer as a painkiller is then sold to pharmaceutical companies which distributed with license with prescription. Now the most interesting use of coca to my mind is that of cocoa powder. The so called eap do or mambi which you find. Only in the colombian amazon and the adjacent proving amazon indians cultivated variety of the plant which is e coca variety. e purdue's. I mentioned earlier of the four varieties used to produce cocaine and since most of their agriculture is carried out solely by women proof of the extraordinary role of coca in the society of tribes. Like the kunas and tiny mocha's is at this is only a propagated and cultivated by men. It is exclusively grown and processed by the men of the tribe. When the leaves are ready to be harvested which is usually after a year it was planted the men trek to the gardens and fill these wonderful handmade with the leaves amid much joking in good cheer and enormous consumption of prepared cocoa powder that is what they call or mambi they've been hall back to the roundhouse what they call the maloka. The leaves of the plant which are then toasted a large flat clay pan or iron plate which is also used to baked cassava bread during the day. The dried leaves are then placed in a hollowed out tree. Trunk which serves as a mortar and pulverized with a sizable wooden club which serves as a pestle the rhythmic thumping of the cocoa being ground to a fine powder echo. Shoot them a local for hours every night. Meanwhile other men burn leaves at the secreatry which is added to the cocoa powder to provide the alkaline substance. That facilitates the release the alkaloids. We talked earlier about the importance of admixture these plans or other compounds which are added to an arrow poison or iowa or hallucinogenic snuffs toxic or hallucinogenic in and of themselves but they enhanced the potency of the other compound at hallucinogenic or otherwise. Such as truly the case with coca. You need to add something to the alkaloid and make it more effective more stimulating so in the case of the kogi in northern colombia they add seashells but this is essentially calcium carbonate which helps extract the cocaine and other compounds and makes the coca more effective. In the case of epa. Do the cocoa powder amazon. Which is my favorite domestic story of all time. They add the ash of certain plants. Usually this is a socratic member of the fig family where they add the ash and it helps extract the compound and make it more potent how these people discovered this complex. Chemistry is really beyond me. But this is yet another mystery of these plants of the gods in these coca chewing tribes. People use an alkaline substance to extract the alkaloids in the case of the kogi since they live on the edge of the caribbean sea it seashells in fact seashells sacred to the kobi's and they're always tracking down the mountain to the seat to collect seashells amongst the kobe's seashells reform of commerce or form of money almost or very important part of their sacred offerings whereas in the amazon where they're chewing do where there are no seashells. They're using the leaves of the secreatry. Which not only facilitate the release the alkaloids. It also gives it a particular flavor. There are several other plants. They add to fortify the effects of the epa. Do or imbue a certain flavor. The most important of these is peru. Mma which is a tree of the maurice either fig family and it said to amplify the strength and improve the flavor of the cocoa powder and when you sit around the maloka at night and all the men are doing the cocoa powder there endless discussions about which coca powder is the best which additives of the best. Which flavors of the best which varieties produce the best buzz essentially and it is stored in a hollowed out calabash or more commonly used as a plastic container with a tight fitting lid throughout the day. The container is seldom outside the reach. Its owner when you see you. Kuna men hunting or you see them in the gardens helping their wives they always have that container with them and every time they feel the need. They used the spoon or really traditional communities. They use it leg bone of taper. This is a big forest mammal as a spatula to scoop out the powder and place it between the cheek and the gum. Unlike the coca leaf which is prized by the andean cultures and the kogi us in northern colombia. The duke with is not chewed but it's gradually allowed to dissolve and be swallowed at which point the user takes the scoop. Now it's a real art to learn how to do this. Because when you put the epa do in your mouth it's a very fine powder so people inhale sucker down into their loves. Choke spit it out. Pour this nasty stuff. All over the front of their shirt stained is very difficult to get out. And i speak from experience. But would you learn how to do it. It truly is a plant of the gods which gives you a lovely feeling which allows you to talk to the night. Which oppresses your hunger. Which is just in my mind. The greatest stimulant in the world to purchase. dr mark. plotkin new book the amazon. What everyone needs to know or his first book. Tales of a shaman's apprentice visit your local bookseller order from amazon dot com from botanical perspective. Coker is a member of the family. Earth rocks salesi which has four general one of those genera is a threesome earth rocks. Elim has about two hundred species. Two of which four varieties of these two species produce. But we think of as cocoa or cocoa powder coca leaves now in the market. When you're in the andes wanna buy and try some cocoa wanna make sure they're selling the real thing and here's a botanical trick. Coca leaves have an almost unique characteristic. They have what are called vernal lines burn lines or lines run through the leaf parallel to the central. This is very unusual in the plant world. If you pick up a leaf and there are lines that run parallel to the central vein instead of running out from the central vein to the edge of the leaf. You know you've got the real thing coco which most foreigners encounter in the andes. These is the number one drug effective treatment and cure for what is known as soda. Itchy so roach is altitude sickness. It's really a dreadful thing. If you've suffered it you know how miserable it is. You can feel like you're having a heart attack your short of breath. You have a pounding headache. It's really quite terrible are remember. I was collecting in the proving. Andy's and i got to the town of what is way up in the mountains. And i just felt i was terrible. I stumbled into a cafe. And i heard dark side of the moon. That was playing at about half speed. I thought i was. I was having a heart attack and they saw the look on my face a new immediately. There's gringo headset oce and they quickly brought me a glass of coca tea which is ubiquitous in the end and i drank it and i quickly better and then found out. The reason that dark side of the moon sounded so weird was the record player was running out of juice so it wasn't the set roce. It was indeed the batteries and the record player but the feeling that i had which was so terrible was immediately cured by this coca tea which is why i think it has such a bright future in western medicine. Kuna tribe lose along the mid eighty pattern not river most remote rivers in the world that flows into the cockatiel in the colombian amazon. They are a tribe of several hundred people. They are members of the arrow watkin family as i explained earlier podcasts for about four language families in south america carrie an arak the two biggest so they speak a language which is related to other arawak tribes but they are very proud group of people proud of their traditions proud of their knowledge that keep their language they tend to keep foreigners and missionaries out. And they are the most prodigious chewers of cocoa or consumers of cocoa powder that i've ever seen now among the prodigious consumers a person may consume over a pound of powder daily which is why every night in the below. You hear the thud thud. Which is the creation of the epa. Do powder to be used the next day. And i might add that. The kunas were shelties. Most favorite tribe you referred to them as the most valiant and reliable of all the peoples he work with and i think a lot of do went into that went into that judgment. No one liked purified cocaine. Leaper do is not addictive and it offers many positive attributes slate and pleasant mood elevation staving off hunger thirst and fatigue in my opinion. Coca leaves coco not coca chewing gum and even cheaper do powder one day could become an internationally safe and effective stimulant and diet drug when i was growing up in the seventies was the age of reformat atlas where everybody was convinced that marijuana was dangerously addictive drug and people would go crazy. That's true and we'll cover that in another podcast. But i see the same potential for coca and coca products. However i have to say that cocaine is addictive. In a way which in my opinion marijuana is not so some safeguards need to be built in there. It's a wonderful crop. These people grow it for their own uses. And i think encouraging them to expand the cultivation of coq if it's done in a sustainable way and doesn't involve processing which involves dumping all sorts of nasty chemicals into the rivers is a potential crop of the future but only if it can be carefully controlled only if the indigenous peoples in the peasants accomplish abo- close can benefit first and foremost only if it doesn't involve destruction of further forest and with the understanding. That cocaine is a dangerous and addictive drug to the indians. Living a traditional lifestyle coca is employed to facilitate conservation conversation and buying the community together both to protect the culture in the forest to cure and to give offerings to the nature spirits for much of the past half-century because of its ready conversion to cocaine coca has been much more of a curse and a blessing outside of ritual context violence death deforestation pollution and corruption have all flowed from the murderous cocaine trade. Perhaps some lessons learned from the increasingly widespread legalization of marijuana in many countries. Might help us. One day pursue a similar positive path with coca in its native form. In the meantime the traditional use of cocoa by it's traditionally uses should be celebrated and protected the bottom line. Here is the coca used in. Its traditional cultural. Setting is a plant of the gods which only benefits humanity. But it's when we take these things out of the ritual setting the ritual context the ritual preparation and abused them. We once again pay a real price so coca wasco can heal and it can hurt can be good for the indigenous peoples. Be good for the rainforest. It'd be good. For all of us. With the proper respect and utilization once more we have to look to our indigenous colleagues to find out properly. Use this plant that the god hundred properly processes plan to the god to make. Sure that the shaker plant can benefit them and us. if we don't listen to our indigenous collings we pay a real price. This has been plants of the gods healing culture and conservation with dr mark. Plotkin to learn more about the mystery and splendor of the amazon rainforest. Find dr plotkin. Latest book the amazon. What everyone needs to know on amazon dot com or your local bookstore. Hey guys this. Is tim against a few more things before you take off number one. This is five bullet friday. Do you want to get a short email from me. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me. Every friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend and five hundred. Friday's a short email. Where i share the coolest things. I've found that. I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that have discovered it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as i do. It could include favorite articles that i've read and that i've shared with my close friends for instance and it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend so if you want to receive that check it out. Just go to four hour. Workweek dot com. That's four hour. Work week dot com all spelled out. And just drop in your email and you'll get the very next one and if you sign up i hope you enjoyed. This episode is brought to you by athletic greens. I get asked all the time what i would take him. I could only take one supplement. The answer is invariably athletic greens. I view it as all in one. Nutritional insurance i recommended it in fact in the four hour body. This is more than ten years ago. And i did not get paid to do so proximity seventy-five vitamins minerals and whole foods sourced ingredients. You'd be very hard pressed to find a more nutrient dense. 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Terence McKenna On Shamanism And Boundary Dissolution

The Alchemical Mind

23:44 min | 11 months ago

Terence McKenna On Shamanism And Boundary Dissolution

"I find it interesting. That the deeper dive into spirituality and philosophy and looking at many different systems of experiencing the divine if you will more with that. I kind of want to simplify what my practice is about. Welcome to the chemical mind before we get the episode started. Of course you know. Have to talk about the patriots at patriot dot com slash. The chemical mind. Where for just one dollar month. You can support this podcast. And of course get additional content early access to episodes and best of all the ad free feed. So you don't have to listen to spots like this one or the upcoming add joined the others who are getting value out of listening to this podcast supporting the show like for example james. Who asked that. I plug his awesome band. Checkout czar bomba on spotify. There'll be a link in the show notes. And of course. Michael smith both of them joining me at the five dollar level and of course the mini others. Who support podcasts. That every other tier thank you so much for your support. Be sure to check out. Patriot dot com slash the chemical mind more information including all the great tears available to you. If you haven't heard about anchor the easiest way to make your podcast let me explain. It's free creation tools. That allow you to record. Edit your podcast right from your phone or computer anchor will then distribute the podcast for you. So it can be heard on spotify apple podcasts. And many more. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. Download the free anchor app or go to anchor that fm to get started on this episode. I'll be bringing you a about fifteen twenty minute speech from terrorists kenna a podcast favourite. An you guys really enjoy. Whenever i bring some of terence's speeches into the podcast. So we're going to be doing that. There's going to be one from ellen. Watts at the end of the week as well a revolving around this whole idea of chamonix tradition. Because it's it's important to look at these things. And i think tears mix some good points in terms of shamanism. These this primal. I guess religion. We'll put that in quotes because it's not quite the same thing but there there's a couple of interesting threads that are going to be kind of sneaking their way along this series of episodes. So if you haven't listened to these skied the or in the bathroom light meant you can begin there so you get an idea of the importance of this. Sonic tradition again. That's kind of a basic introduction symbolism. But you guys should enjoy it. We have the speech from terence. We have the interview coming up a second shamanism which is of course very much related to what terrorists talking about and i find that really interesting. There's been a lot of talk of of meditation practice and stuff like that. And i'm doing down the patriot. Of course doing this living. Mindfulness course so we can get better acquainted with ourselves but But i do find it interesting. That deep dive in the more. I want to simplify because the deeper dive in the more. I realize a lot of this stuff is just ritual just shenanigans. It's just kind of magic if you will. And it doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't actually drive to the core of the thing and in appoint terrence makes in the speech which i totally agree with. In fact with your regular listener you will be familiar with my point of view on this. Is this idea of direct experience. The importance of direct experience in experiencing something other than ourselves something greater than ourselves binding are true name. If you will our true self as many traditions like to talk about it. So i hope you enjoy the speech from terence. He's of course always really fascinating to listen to without further ado. Here's taken well in fifteen minutes to try and say something about shamanism in halcion's we're just going kid touch the surface and i figured the simplest way to do this is just to sort of unload on you. How i stevie things Shamanism is not some obscure concern of cultural anthropologists. Shamanism is how religion was practiced for its first million years up until about twelve thousand years ago. There was no other form of religion on this planet. That was how people attain some kind of access to the sacred and So shamanism ben about technique and any of you are students of literature of shamanism. You probably know that. One of the great overviews shamanism is contained in marsili book shamanism the archaic techniques of ecstasy the archaic techniques the In other words shamanism is not so much religion as ordinarily conceived as it is a kind of pre rational science a kind of methodology for attaining a certain kind of experience and then the question becomes what experience. And what's so great about it. Well the experience that is attained if we can attempt to rise some kind of cosmic overview so that we are not dealing with experience in the context of what the matter texts say or the week toto or some other tribal people but when we attempt to pool all of this descriptive data than what is the experience that the shaman is having that is making him or her an exemplar in their own society and in a sense almost superhuman well if you analyze thousands and thousands of the shimon experiences both drug both planting due to non plant induced the Overwhelming connecting thread is boundary dissolution. This is what experiences that we are all steeping that we call terrifying wonderful desirable horrible but what is the experience of having the real fall in and the floor fall out all at once boundary dissolution. Why should that be so important so wonderful because it acts psychologically in the human being like the birth experience the world is made new. Everything is seen through. Newly opened is now. There are many techniques of shamanism or attaining this date Celibacy withholding food ordeals flagellation mutilation doesn't sound like a program for a lot of fun does it. And bam jala synergetic plan. Now it's a question which always emerges that these conferences. All people are talking about drugs and plant substances. Isn't there another way to do this. Isn't this the great yoga systems. The great ton trick systems of thought have opened up for us without the Self losing half of ingesting plant into our bodies in polluting our precious bodily essences. The answer is no and the further answer is the reason. The universe is constructed. This way is that so you will be forced to humble yourself into the admission that you can't do it alone. Why should you be able to do with alone. Where is it written in abdomen team. The joe blow should be able to walk directly into the empty chamber of the most high simply because he or she wants to know where the scenic one on fancy latin. Or you can't get along without it. The cna qua non for attaining a psychedelic. Experience is humbling yourself to the point where you admit that you must submit to the experience of the plant or the drug. This act of surrender is the major technical of function you will be called upon to perform during the psychedelic trip. You just keep saying take me. I'm yours take me. i'm yours and it will do the rest well. This is much too much to get into in fifteen minutes. But why the tension between boundary and boundary dissolution Why the tension between the closed personal world of reinforce neurotic constructs that. We call ordinary psychological. Hell why the tension between that and this vast expanded and opened state of being where Life dow seems to flow through us. Well the tension between the states has to do something with the fact that there is a blind spots in the human mind we do not like to have called to our attention The animus and caring nature of the universe because the universe is something that we have had to fight our way through to get to our present position on how many reindeer bit the dust that we could sit here. This morning how many forests were cleared. You see we have a long history of Resistance and conquest to nature and when we experience the boundary dissolving qualities of the senate. Jin we learn what pogo learn. We have met the enemy and he is us and closing blue then creates a dimension of moral responsibility this why the shaman is a special person because shaman has somehow closed the loop of moral responsibility and in so doing he comes tremendously authentic to the people In the society that is constituted around the shaman. The shaman basically is an exemplar a model for how to be not simply how to be in the psychedelic trance state to be in the act of wooing how to be in the act of hunting child rearing so forth exemplar that bursts through hell tro conditioning. Culture conditioning is like bad software. it's over and over. Its diddled with and rewritten so that it can just run on the next decant. But there is cultural. And it's that cultural hardware. Otherwise known as authentic vn that we are propelled toward by the example of the shaman and the techniques shaman. No if if someone tells you that too vast spiritual riches way to you if you will. But you've upsets interesting food and your own boss for ten or fifteen years and follow along with them then. Something will be attained. This is no challenge. Can most of us because we have our lives to leave mortgages to pay children to be car payments. But if someone tells you each this plans and you will come into your birthright. That's a real existential challenge. The excuse that it's difficult or unattainable has been removed. there can no longer be schilling. Shelling around that issue shamanism therefore is a call to authenticity. Well then the last point that. I wanted to make this. Authenticity is generally presented. An has generally been presented throughout the lucien of the psychedelic movement in the united states. As a kind of personal integrity you kind of psychological health as though you have confronted all your demons and slade them and you are now balanced or individuals or whole or something like that. That's true that is the first stage of the shimin integration. But that is not the goal of the chamonix integration otherwise it just becomes kind of chemical site of chemically assisted psychotherapy. The goal is then having attained that balance that wisdom that connection to them rise up to a level of universal meaning in other words to break through the machinery of cultural conditioning. In the same way that shawn mendez and to attempt to Discover something authentic something authentic outside the self generated language cloud and to my mind what this authentic thing is is hard to know how to put it but it's the animated quality that resides within the psychedelic experience that the the universal mind is a lie is essential is preceding. Is there to meet you when you come through from the other side so we're not talking about psychedelics. As the spotlight to be turned on to reveal the detritus of our own personal unconscious it is not a spot lot. It is not shining from behind you. It is shining ahead of you. It is actually that. The same organizational principles which called us four into self-reflection have called for self reflection out of the planet itself and the problem then is for us to suspect this act on our suspicion and good detectives and track down the spirit in its lair. And this is what shamans are doing. They are hunters of spirit now. Anthropology tends to want to well placed in a museum. Diorama is too harsh craze but wants to freeze the things in contacts so they become our fans so then we say well. How do we to think about the shaman. And i've even seen acres. What did we. Toto think of the shaman in winter. What do we tell to think of the shaman. In summer will not only. Is this a stupid question on the face of it. But since they don't have winter and summer it's a stupid question beneath the surface. Shamanism exist in the same way that other culture bound institutions exist her s to catalog and reflect on. Rather this is a case where we played the role of the prodigal son the descent into feistiness the descent into master. For fifteen thousand years. We have gone to a desert and we are now very well adapted to the deserts of rationalism realism state politics patriarchy so forth and so on but there is no food in a desert. I eventually there has to be a promised land. And i believe that many people in this room know that personally that promised land is the psychedelic experience. The larger challenge and it is a larger challenge. It's easy to fix your own. Mind the larger challenge is to somehow make this private doorway a public auction empower ourselves. To speak of this. In such a way that it can be put down. It cannot be rolled over taffy pigeonholed. It cannot be handed over to a click of experts but rather it has to be confronted as the authentic authentic thing which we lost so long ago that we no longer have any image of the thing loss we simply have an eight and a the cannot be got rid of the solution to. This is a reim- powering of the schimanek. Needham a taking of the idea of shamanism pouring it into the best. Our own self exploration is given to us which to my hind means art. Psychotheraphy answer are and try to empower these institutions to give back our authenticity that was lost. The cultures that possess shamanism function the entire culture as shimon model for those of us who wander in the product goals desert of materialism and through the work of people like gordon watson and richard evans schulte's and in the nineteenth century richard spruce. The tools have been catalogued the magical plants than i don't believe that shamanism without how a senate is authentic shamanism more comfortable shamanism now. This is a great debate in anthropology. Marsili celia on one side saying when shamanism turns to nar coughing it has entered the decadent and final phase. The very use of the word narcotics betrays such a botanical naievety mail. You're not going to be happy. Which what follows on. The other hand. Said shamanism is not resort to hallucinogenic. Plants is a shamanism that has lost its roots as shamanism that relies on ordeals hatha logical personalities and withholding of food is shamanism that has lost a sense of its techniques and its efficacy so the last thought i would like to leave with you is And i hope. I'm preaching to the converted vicious single person in this room. Who doesn't know what i'm about to say than it's worth repeating and values we are not bullshitting you. This is not yoga. this is not. Nlp not to not those. This is real. It is so real that you can take the most hardened rational reductionist asshole in to that environment and he will meet his maker you into a confrontation with authentic being and this is what we are starving for. This is how we've gotten into the messes and mass that we're in takes seriously. The techniques of shamanism study the plants make real choices. And then don't dibble the dose once. You've done your homework. Gulf war into will wrap up this episode at the line for listening of course. Funding twitter at chemical is an email martin at the chemical mind check out the website the chemical mine dot com or links to the patriot sport. Show to the discord to chat with like my folks and as always remember that you are it.

terence bam jala Michael smith kenna chamonix patriots Watts ellen joe blow stevie shawn mendez james apple Jin schilling senate gordon watson richard evans schulte
Hidden Knowledge  Mark Plotkin on How Animals Discover and Use Medicines (and Lessons We Can Apply) (#537)

The Tim Ferriss Show

55:29 min | 2 weeks ago

Hidden Knowledge Mark Plotkin on How Animals Discover and Use Medicines (and Lessons We Can Apply) (#537)

"Well hello boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show. This special episode features doctor Mark plotkin. He is a very popular guest, and he's back by popular demand on many levels. Mark, you can find him at Doc Mark plotkin plo TKI N on Twitter, is an ethnobotanist who serves as president of the Amazon conservation team or act ACT. I've done a lot of work with act. They have partnered with roughly 80 tribes in South America, predominantly to map and improve management and protection of roughly 100 million acres of ancestral rainforests. His best known to the general public as the author of the book tales of a shaman's apprentice, which is one of the most popular books ever written about the rainforest. His most recent book is the Amazon subtitle what everyone needs to know. And you can find my first interview with Mark where we cover his bio has amazing amazing resume. His adventures with Richard Evans schultes with indigenous tribes, everything he's learned from western science and the various compounds he has firsthand experience using at team blog slash Mark plotkin. He's also a host of the plants of the gods podcast, through which you can learn about everything from hallucinogenic snuffs to the diverse formulations of curare, each episode, basically covers a given plant. Curaray, by the way, doesn't just relax the muscles of the body and lead to asphyxiation, if used for hunting. For instance, it also led to modern anesthesia in many senses. So there's a lot to it. So check out plants of the gods. Today's episode focuses on how animals use medicinal plants. And it has some wild stories related to what we can learn and what we can use from the behaviors of cows, penguins, pigs, frogs, and everything in between. There's a lot of hidden wisdom in nature. And this particular audio is pulled from a chapter in mark's book titled medicine quest, subtitle in search of nature's healing secrets. I read the book. I loved it, and I asked Mark if he'd be willing to record this chapter in audio to share with you all, so he made some updates, made some tweaks, he agreed and here we are. So with all that said, please enjoy. This episode is brought to you by block 5. Block fi is building a bridge between cryptocurrencies and traditional financial and wealth management products. They're creating innovative products to advance the digital asset ecosystem for both individual and institutional investors. And it's a platform now manages more than 12 billion in assets. Full disclosure I became excited enough about this company that I ended up becoming an investor, but moving on, block fi that's BLO CK FI offers a wide spectrum of services and I'll mention just a few here. First, they're block fi rewards Visa signature credit card provides an easy way to earn more Bitcoin because you can earn 3.5% in Bitcoin back on all purchases in your first three months. And 1.5% forever after with no annual fee. Second, block fi also its clients, that would be you easily buy or sell cryptocurrencies, including but not limited to. They have a wide selection. Bitcoin, ether litecoin and pax G as well as USD that's United States dollars based stable coins, including U.S. D.C., G USD and pacs. Block fi aggregates liquidity to offer seamless trade execution and pricing, block fi also offers instant ACH so you can move funds onto the platform and immediately start trading. On their platform, you will soon be able to trade with ACH, meaning that you'll be able to buy cryptocurrencies directly with your bank account. And there's a lot more coming. So check it out. For a limited time, you can earn a crypto bonus of 15 to $250 in value. Again, for a limited time, you can earn a crypto bonus of $15 to $250 in value when you open a new account. Get started today at block fi dot com slash Tim and use code Tim at sign up. That's a block fi dot com, BLO CK FI dot com slash Tim and code Tim. Optimal minimal this altitude I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shake. Can I ask you a personal question? Now we're the same time. I'm a cybernetic organism, living this year where mental Anthos development. In this week's episode of plants of the gods, we want to look at plants of the apes. How animals use medicinal plants and how poison dart frogs get their poison. Biologists studying animals in the wild are typically discouraged from giving their study animals names. So as not to anthropomorphize them. In other words, not to think of them as friends or pets or anything like that. Jane Goodall, one of the greatest field biologists of all time, however, has always disagreed. I overheard a most interesting discussion between Hearn and other biologists in the early 1980s. The zoologist asked, why do you give your chimps names? Is that really scientific? Without missing a beat, Jane asked him, do you have a dog? Yes, he replied. Does your dog ever personality? She asked. Of course, he said. Well, said gene, I bet my chimps have at least as much personality as your dog. Many years later, when I was studying the history of wine as medicine in the ancient world, covered in an earlier podcast episode. I mentioned the project to Jane. You know the drinking alcohol wasn't invented by humans, don't you? She asked, chimps periodically get drunk on fermented marula fruit as to elephants and baboons and other species as well. As an ethnobotanist who studies how indigenous peoples find and use medicinal plants of the rainforest, this was a revelation. Could some of this medicinal plant wisdom of the tribal peoples have been first learned of from the animal kingdom in the summer of 1981 I had the opportunity to wander in the once great rain forests of eastern Brazil. The early European explorers were awestruck by the beauty and diversity of these tropical forests, which stretched an enormous unbroken arc from the easternmost tip of Brazil, hundreds and hundreds of miles south into what is now Paraguay and northern Argentina. However, what remains is a fragment of what once was. Small, isolated pockets of forest, home to a handful of species. More than 96% of the original rainforest cover has been destroyed. And as I wandered through those distant patches of jungle, the sounds of trucks, bulldozers, radios, and human voices, surrounded me on all sides. A constant reminder that our civilization was in the final throes of obliterating the little that was left. The forest itself seemed almost empty, the large terrestrial mammals like the Jaguar and the peccary that characterized the South American rainforest had been hunted out so thoroughly that I saw not even a pair of footprints. The haunting calls of the two cans and the piercing screeches of the scarlet macaws had long been stilled. Of course, these spectacular animals were not the only components that had been eliminated from these ecosystems. In the course of preparing for my trip, I had combed through the early accounts of the first European explorers who had ventured into these jungles 500 years earlier. The reports were filled with tales of the tribal warriors who once dominated this complex and enchanting landscape. Though the jungle had been reduced by over 90% of its original range, tribes like the bota kudos and the two pina kin had been completely exterminated long before my arrival. So what is the medical legacy of these indigenous peoples and the ones great forests in which they thrived? All of the commercial medicines derived from The Rain forests of Africa, Asia and the Americas were initially extracted from plants first observed in use by local tribes people. No major medical compound has ever been developed from an eastern Brazilian rainforest plant, and that is undoubtedly because the botocudos and other tribes were obliterated before any ethno botanical studies were ever carried out. Without indigenous people to guide us how best to determine which plants merit laboratory investigation. Of the 16 parks and protected areas in the country of Suriname in the northeast Amazon north of Brazil. For example, 12 have no indigenous peoples living within the borders nearby. A situation increasingly common in the tropics. If we're to find the new and useful compounds that do occur in the plants, how best to proceed. American aviators preparing to fly over the jungles of indo China during the Second World War were taught that the best way to survive if shot down was to eat with the monkeys eat. While the overarching value of this advice was probably psychological, because some monkeys have chambered stomachs capable of digesting leaves that would poison or possibly kill a human. This recommendation may ironically prove more beneficial from additional purposes. Let me explain. We are learning that rain forest animals also know and use plants for therapeutic purposes. A most extraordinary example comes from research on an endangered species of primate in these same rainforests of eastern Brazil. In the early 1980s, Karen stryer than a Harvard graduate student in biological anthropology traveled to the eastern Brazilian state of menagerie to conduct research on motor keys, also known as woolly spider monkeys. The largest and most ape like of the new world monkeys, stryer studies soon led her to some surprising conclusions. The diet of more keys proved much higher in tamins than those of other monkeys, because tannin comprise about 50% of the anti dysentery drug and to revive form, the Harvard scientist wondered if the primates were in fact modifying their diets to kill parasites or control the diarrhea that often accompanies parasite infestation. Subsequent investigation revealed that the more keys in this forest were completely free of parasites, highly unusual for a rainforest primate. And several of these plants are identical to a closely related to species used by Amazonian indigenous peoples to control intestinal parasites. Prior to the onset of the breeding season, stryer noted that the more key diet consisted primarily of the leaves of two tree species rich in antimicrobial compounds. During that same time of year the more accused visit the so called monkey ears tree, so named because of the shape of the fruit to feed. As a general rule, when monkeys find trees laden with edible fruit, they gorge themselves until little remains. Yet stryer wrote that the more keys consumed a small portion of the fruits before departing, quote, as if they only needed a taste to be satisfied. Once back at Harvard, she learned that these fruits are rich and sterile, a chemical employed in the manufacture of progesterone, which is itself used in human birth control pills. Plan hormones can affect animal fertility. Did the monkeys of this forest discover the birth control pills, tens of thousands of years before their human cousins did? Primatologists Ken of duke university has spent decades studying the howler monkeys of Central America and reach conclusions that parallel those of Karen stryer. Lander hypothesizes that the howler monkeys eat a selection of plants that allows them to determine the sex of their offspring. He notes that female hollars consume certain plants before and after copulation that they do not eat at any other time. Over decades of study, Glenda found that some howlers bore only male offspring, while others produced only females and outcome unlikely due to chance. Females firm, that as those that carry an ex chromosome, do better than males sperm, which carry a Y chromosome in an acidic environment and vice versa, could female hollers be controlling the chemistry of the reproductive tract and if so why? Glanders suggests that plant derived estrogen like chemicals may be responsible. He notes that males in a monkey troop often pass more of their genes to the next generation than females were able to do. This would explain why it is often advantageous for female to produce more males or if they're already exist in overabundance males, why female offspring would be preferable. The study of how animals use plants for medicinal purposes has been termed zoo of pharmacognosy, the spelling is in the show notes. But our observation of this phenomenon is without question an ancient practice, who has not watched a dog swallow grass to induce vomiting when the animal is eaten something unhealthy that it wishes to regurgitate. And the thought provoking and classic research paper, the brilliant ecologist, doctor Dan janson at the University of Pennsylvania wrote, I would like to ask if plant eating vertebrates may consume plants on occasion as a way of writing their own prescriptions. And sometimes animals teach us by their wisdom, but other times by their mistakes. Fatal culinary errors made by North American cows in the early part of the 20th century, for example, led to the development of several blockbuster drugs. One Saturday afternoon in February 1933, in the middle of a howling blizzard, a Wisconsin farmer appeared in the office of chemist doctor Carl Lincoln, carrying a bucket of blood. The man had driven almost 200 miles from his farm near deer park to seek help from the state veterinarian headquartered at the university of Wisconsin in Madison. It was the weekend, however, and the vet's office was closed so the desperate farmer wandered into the first building he found where the door was not locked, the biochemistry building. The blood in the bucket he carried would not clot. Several of his cows had recently hemorrhaged to death, and now his bull was oozing blood from his nose. He had been feeding his herd with the only hay he had on hand, spoiled, sweet clover. This hemorrhagic disease had first been reported in 1920s from both North Dakota and Alberta Canada. While specialists determined that feeding the animal spoiled sweet clover was the cause of this malady, they were not able to cure it nor were they able to isolate the compound in the clover that caused the problem. Their recommendation destroy the spoiled forage and transfuse healthy blood into hemorrhagic cattle, the same advice offered by link. Unfortunately, however, the farmer lacked an alternative fodder to feed it herd, and he was unable to perform blood transfusions in a snowstorm in rural Wisconsin during the depression. Troubled by his inability to assist the poor man. Link mentioned the problem to German postdoctoral student, Eugene Sheffield, Sheffield, and educated and idealistic fellow fond of quoting Goethe and Shakespeare, undertook the spoiled clover conundrum as a personal crusade. He and his colleagues analyzed the clover for 7 years before identifying and isolating the cause of its lethality, a chemical they named dicumarol. They correctly hypothesized that if too much caused a hemorrhage, a minuscule amount might prove to be a useful anticoagulant. Today, tycoon, and its synthetic analogs are commonly employed in humans as anticoagulants, particularly for the prevention and treatment of pulmonary embolism and venous thrombosis. The clover analysis serves as an example of a single species yielding a multitude of useful products. Noting that one of the synthetic analogs seemed to induce particularly severe bleeding in rodents, link proposed testing it as a rat poison, thinking it might lack the obvious dangers of more toxic rodenticides like strychnine. Research on this compound was bankrolled by the Wisconsin, alumni research foundation, acronym W a RF. When it proved effective, it was named warfare, despite the bellicose connotation, the name comes from the acronym of the alumni group, not declaring war on rodents. In early 1951, an army inductee tried to commit suicide by eating warfare. He failed to kill himself, but did manage to induce a classic case of hemorrhagic sweet clover syndrome. The unhappy soldier was successfully treated with transfusions of normal blood and coagulants. This bizarre incident, however, led to studies and eventual approval of warfare then named coumadin as an anticoagulant for human patients. How many cardiac patients realized that their physicians are prescribing rat poison for their ills? Yet another aspect of animal behavior has led us to other therapeutic leads. A surprisingly wide variety of creatures ingest and store toxic natural compounds in their own bodies. They do this not for medical purposes, but to employ the poisons for their own purposes, either to equip themselves with the ability to deliver a poisonous bite, or to deter predators from eating them. This is the case with the poisonous puffer fish. The deadly nerve poison known as tetrodotoxin occurs in dozens of pufferfish species. These fish concentrate the poison in their internal organs. Though the logical correlation is that humans would go to great lengths to avoid these toxic denizens of the deep, pufferfish are considered a delicacy in Japan. Chefs must undergo special training and then be licensed by the federal government before being permitted to prepare the sought after delicacy for consumption. Despite the rigorous preparation, accidents do happen. Every few years someone is poisoned. The result, general numbness, loss of muscle control and unless treated, death. Intrigued by the numbness typical of tetrodotoxin and animation. Japanese physicians have used it as a treatment for pain caused by migraines or menstrual cramps. Scientists were surprised to find that the deadly bite of the blue ringed octopus also contained to trot a toxin was it possible that the puffer fish and the octopus were creating the same poison. They found that neither the fish nor the octopus actually was capable of producing the poison. It was a bacterium known as Vibrio that manufactured it. The fish and the molluscs were ingesting the microbe and then storing the poison in their internal organs to deter predators. In a way, the puffer fish and the octopus had done our research for us. Of the millions of microbes or billions of microbes in the sea, they had found one of the deadliest with potent medical applications and brought it to our attention, albeit in a most fatal fashion. The method of filtering a poison from another species and using it for protection has helped us understand how poison dart frogs become toxic. Tropical American dart frogs contain myriad fascinating chemical compounds until relatively recently, however, we were unable to determine how the frogs made the poison. When raised in captivity, these tiny amphibians often failed to produce the same toxins. Specimens captured in the wild and placed in captivity may keep their alkaloids. That is the chemical compounds that were so poisonous, but their progeny had fewer and fewer of these alkaloids and in some cases none. Hawaii produced an even stranger phenomenon. Poison dart frogs were released in the minoa valley on the island of Oahu in 1932. When the descendants of these amphibian immigrants were tested in the lab 50 years after the original introduction, scientists found two of the same types of alkaloids that are found in the original species, which is native to Panama. Another type of alkaloid found in the Panamanian specimens was entirely absent. And scientists found an entirely new alkaloid in the Hawaiian frog that does not occur in the Panamanian version. What's going on? Poison dart frog authority John Daly, hypothesized that one, the amphibians made the alkaloids themselves. Two, they made the alkaloids from something they consumed or three, they collected and stored the compounds from a component of their diet, much as the puffer fish does with tetrodotoxin. The answer to Daly's hypotheses seems to be a combination of all three. Some of the compounds are their precursors are found in poisonous insects eaten by the frog. Alkaloids are taken in and stored from beetles, ants and millipedes, but it was not just a question of ingesting and sequestering any and all alkaloids. When ants containing two different alkaloids were fed to the frogs, the little amphibians stored only one alkaloid in their skin and apparently excreted the other. How's that for tiny chemistry? And in some instances, the frogs were observed seeking out and consuming particular species of insects that harbored compounds that the frogs typically stored in their own skin. As with the octopus and the pufferfish, these little frogs were finding new and useful chemicals in nature long before we did. In terms of intentionally using plants for medicinal purposes, the great apes of Africa are the most sophisticated members of the animal kingdom. Harvard primatologist Richard wrangham observed chimpanzees in Uganda's kibali forest, consuming a tropical daisy called a spilia in the early 1980s. While chimps devour mostly plants in their largely vegetarian diet, reign made note of the unusual behavior surrounding consumption of the species, the leaves were carefully chosen and then swallowed. Furthermore, the primates faces appeared to indicate severe distaste like a child taking castor oil, because chimps like people are prone to parasitic infections, rang them hypothesized that the monkeys were consuming these leaves for medicinal rather than nutritional purposes. Ringham brought a speedy as specimens to the lab for analysis and receive startling results. The plan contained a novel compound which they named the Rubin that proved to have potent fungicidal and vermicelli properties that is it killed bacteria fungi and worms. Curiously, they also learned that this plant and related species are widely employed by African peoples for a number of medicinal uses from treating cuts to cystitis to gonorrhea. This in turn raised another issue, was that the use of this plant by the chimps that led people to experiment with it in the first place. Ethnobotanists, scientists like me, who studied people's use of local plants, have long wondered how a culture learns which species harbor medicinal qualities. While the process of trial and error clearly plays a significant role in this process, might not the plants employed by animals offer a natural starting place for experimentation. The theoo bring story had an even more bizarre footnote, when scientists retested Apigee in the lab, the only found theory in the roots of the plants which the chimps do not eat. African European, Japanese, and American research teams have repeatedly confirmed that the primates consume only leaves. Why then are parasite ridden chimps eating the leaves? Primatologist Michael Huffman, an American scientist who lived in Japan and works in Tanzania, found the answer in an ingenious bit of field research. Huffman and his colleagues found that the chimps droppings often contain both a spilia leaves and intestinal worms that had been impaled on stiff tiny hairs known as trichomes on the leaf surface. Though the chimps were taken the leaves as medicine, it was not a chemical that killed the parasite, but a physical remedy that simply scraped out and impaled the offending organism. Huffman christened this process, the Velcro effect, because of this research, however, scientists had indeed discovered a new antibiotic. Huffman, who was inspired to choose a career in primatology by his childhood fascination with the book curious George, eventually collected concrete evidence that the chimps were employing other plants as chemical medicines rather than just botanical Velcro. Huffman is focused much of his field research on the mahali region of Tanzania along the eastern shore of Lake tanganyika, close to where the explorer Henry Morton Stanley found David livingstone more than a century ago, and about 100 miles north of Jane Goodall's famous site at Gombe stream. There Huffman's guide and mentor is Muhammad, save for cologne. A soft spoken elder of the local watah Conway tribe. Kalinda is both a skilled naturalist and a renowned herbalist. Kalinda and Hoffman were tracking a sick female chimp in November 1987, when the chimp stopped in front of a vernonia bush of the daisy family, tore off a branch and began peeling the bark. Ten years later, Hoffman still vividly recalled the events that transpired. Muhammad said, that is very strange. I don't know why she's eating that, because it is very bitter. I asked, do they eat it a lot? And he said, no. Then I asked him if his people made use of it, and he said yes, we take it for stomach problems. Bernoulli represents one of the most important and widely used medicinal plants of the African continent, in fact. In Ethiopia, it is valued as a treatment for malaria. People in South Africa use it for amoebic dysentery. Tribes people in Zaire use it for diarrhea, and the angolans employ it for upset stomach. In kitan we, the language of Huffman's guide and mentor kounde, the name for vernonia is and Johnson, which means bitter leaf and the real medicine. As they watch the sick chimp together, she finished peeling the bark and began chewing on the stem. She did not swallow it, however, but spit out the chewed remains only ingesting the bitter SAP. Huffman doubts the SAP is quote an acquired taste consumed for gustatory purposes. The flavor is exceptionally foul. Jane Goodall once performed an intriguing experiment, which probably has some bearing on Huffman's observation. When she gave sick chimps, bananas laced with the antibiotic tetracycline, they readily devoured them. However, when she offered the same drug laden fruits to healthy chimps, they refused them. Huffman and Kalinda continued to follow the sick chimp, which made a rapid recovery. Prior to consuming the plant's SAP, the chimp was suffering from constipation, malaise, and lack of appetite. A day later, she made a spectacular recovery. The researchers had trouble keeping her in sight as you began climbing ridges at a rapid clip. Of course, a single observation of a single sick chimp can not be considered convincing proof in and of itself. Yet in December of 91, the research team made similar observations that added greatness to their theory. Huffman and Kalu day observed another sick chimp eating bernon and managed to test their hypothesis. As they tracked the chimp they collected samples of her droppings for laboratory analysis. At the time of the first collection, the stools contained a 130 nematodes per gram, less than 24 hours later, the egg level reduced to 15 per gram, and the chimp had resumed hunting, an energy intensive exercise that she appeared unable to perform the day before. When the researchers calculated exactly how much of the plant the animal had ingested, they found that her dosage was almost identical to that taking by ailing tribespeople. The period of recovery 24 hours was identical for both people and chimps, and though the plant was a common and available year round, chimps tended to consume it only during the rainy season when parasite infections are most prevalent. Working with the Japanese colleagues, Huffman had the plant chemically analyzed, lab work revealed two types of chemical compounds that accounted for the plant's medicinal uses. The plants are rich in terpene lactones, chemicals found in many botanical species known to have anti worm anti amoeba and antibiotic properties. New suspicion lactones found in these plants demonstrated significant activity against leishmaniasis a common and figuring tropical disease as well as drug resistant falciparum malaria. Appropriately, the first commercial use of these vernonia extracts may be for animals rather than people. Huffman has collaborated with colleagues in both Denmark and Tanzania to determine the efficacy of vernonia extracts and killing a nematode by the scientific name of osteophyte, Stefano stoneham, another instance in which the scientific name is longer than the creature itself. These nematodes and their close relatives cause significant loss of livestock particularly in the tropical world. Current treatments are often expensive by third world standards and simply inaccessible. The quality of livestock husbandry and the tropics could be vastly improved by providing farmers with a plant they can grow and used to kill parasites effectively. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by you can. You see an what you eat and how you live, exercise, sleep, stress, all play an important role in how your body handles glucose. It's main form of energy you might think of blood sugar that is glucose. When glucose levels are steady, and you avoid spikes, you're improving your metabolic fitness. And important way to take control of your metabolic fitness is to eat and fuel with foods that help regulate blood sugar to help enhance my own metabolic health. I was introduced to you can by doctor Peter attia, who said there is no carb in the world like it. You can patented ingredient, super starch, has the remarkable ability to provide a steady release of energy without a spiking blood sugar levels. 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Alkaloids in the fruit provide chemical stimulus, and some claim that betel nut is as addictive as tobacco. Several decades ago, chemists isolated an alkaloid from the palm, which they call a recollect because the scientific name for the palm genus is aure. Although initially used by physicians as a human verm refuge, that is to kill parasites a reckling was eventually judged two toxic for our own species and is currently employed as a treatment for parasites and animals. Animals often prove tougher than humans do. They don't suffer the side effects, some drugs cause in people. Few animals live as long as our species so they theoretically won't incur the deleterious effects that may result from taking a drug for many decades. Hence many of the drugs both natural and synthetic currently in development will eventually be used for animals instead of people or for both. The magnitude of the veterinary market is enormous encompassing everything from domestic dogs and cats to zoo animals to cattle pigs, sheep and horses that serve as the basis for agricultural operations all over the world. In fact, the annual global value of veterinary drugs is estimated to be more than $29 billion, almost $30 billion a year. Some plants harbor compounds potentially useful both for human and veterinary medicine. Fig trees dominate many tropical forests where their fruit serve as major dietary components for both birds and primates. Chimps use the trees from additional purposes as well as food. In the western Amazon, the SAP of one species is so highly valued as a cure for parasitic infections that is bottled and sold commercially. The leaves of an African species are eaten by chimps and Tanzania, probably because they contain protein destroying enzymes that kill nematodes, which as we've seen are the chimpanzees most common intestinal parasites. The young leaves which the chimp seed contains 600% more antiparasitic agent than do the older fig leaves, which shows the chimps are pretty good botanists. Is also consumed additionally by another large mammal, the elephant. Presumably these pachyderms value it for its antiparasitic nature, much as local people use the plant. But fig trees aren't the only medicinal plant consumed by the elephant. In the early 1940s, scientists observe Asian elephants devouring the fruits of a legume of the genus and Tana before embarking on lengthy treks, leading researchers to hypothesize that the plant may serve as either a stimulant or a painkiller, or maybe it's just pachyderm carbo loading. For example, a world wildlife fund ecologist spent much of 1975 tracking and observing a pregnant elephant in tsavo park in Kenya. The elephant had a standard routine of covering about three miles a day in search of edible plants. One day, the mother to be walked almost 20 miles and devoured an entire tree of the borage family. The scientist had never observed this creature eat the species before or after this particular incident. Four days later, the elephant gave birth. While this is not proof of cause and effect, the scientists soon stumbled across an interesting connection, pregnant women in Kenya preparing consume a tea of the bark and leaves the species to induce either labor or abortion. When Michael Huffman related destroyed to his colleague kounde, the Kenyan replied that his grandmother had taught him that Watteau women had used his plant for the same purpose in the distant past. Huffman noted that the waton we live in southwestern Tanzania, more than 100 miles south of tsavo, implying that the custom was probably the case in more than one elephant individual or population. According to Huffman, Muhammad learned most of what he knows about medicinal plants from his late grandfather, who gleaned insight into the potential utility of the flora by observing the behavior of the local fauna. Kalinda related the tale of a sick African crested porcupine, the dug up and consumed the roots of a local plant known as mulling Gale. The little creature soon recovered from bouts of diarrhea and lethargy, often the symptoms of a parasite infection. Kounde claimed that this led the watan way to begin employing mouling Lele to treat parasite infestations among themselves. Hoffman cautions that this story may be merely an interesting teaching device to pass important information down from one generation to another, and adds that medicinal plant use has never before been reported in porcupines. Can we afford to dismiss this as an allegorical tale for transmitting information to children and grandchildren? Or should Mulan Galilee be investigated in the lab? This episode parallels an experience I had in the northeast Amazon with an extraordinary tribal group known as the maroons. When slaves were brought to the Amazon in the 17th and 18th century, many managed to escape from captivity into the rainforest. There they coalesced into tribal societies very much patterned on the African cultures from which they had been forcibly removed. They were warriors, perhaps by nature, but certainly by necessity as they represented a severe threat to the plantation economy of the local colonies. As long as there was a home in the forest for runaway slaves, servants on the plantation were that much more likely to take up arms and or escape. In Brazil, the maroons managed to organize themselves into the city state known as palmares, which was eventually raised to the ground by white plantation owners and their henchmen. In Suriname, however, the maroons were never conquered, and there these unique African American cultures continue to thrive. From an ethnobotanical perspective, the maroons were exceedingly interesting and that they have an origin in a relationship with a forest different from the local amerindians as demonstrated by the ethnobotanist Bruce Hoffman. For example, they employ some plants from additional purposes that the amerindians do not use. Because the Native Americans have lived in the forest for thousands of years, and the maroons have only been there for several hundred years. It's tempting to assume that the latter know much less about the forest because they're relatively recent arrivals. I came to find out that this is not always the case. I was visiting the capital of Palmyra, sitting on the terrace of a bar overlooking the muddy brown, sir and arm river that flows gently past the city. With me was Chris healey, an American raised in surname, whose an expert on maroon art and culture. We're speaking about the people the plants and the animals of the forest when he told me an exceedingly peculiar tale about the taper, the largest mammal of the Amazon rainforest, according to Chris, the maroons claimed the tapirs eat the stems of the necu plant. Defecate into forest dreams and eat the fish that rise to the surface stunned by compounds in the plants. In fact, neck, no one elsewhere in Latin America is barbasco or chimbo, contains chemicals known as road noise that interfere with fish's ability to intake oxygen causing them to float to the surface if Nick who has been added to the water in which they swim. Local peoples, both amerindians and maroons take advantage of this phenomenon by throwing crushed neck gust stems into the river and catching the fish that rise to the surface. This plant serves as the source of rotenone, which is used as a biodegradable pesticide by organic gardeners and was in fact valued by American soldiers during the Second World War to kill mites that invested their clothing. Thinking that the Native Americans know more about the forest and its creatures than the maroons do, a queried several Amerindian colleagues about tapers and neck coup, but they steadfastly denied any connection between the two. However, several maroons that I interviewed told me that tapers do indeed consume neck, defecate the remains in forest dreams and so on. Does this mean that the maroons learn to the fish stunning capabilities of neck from watching tapers? Or is this merely something on the order of a fanciful tale concocted to teach youngsters about the value of the vine? Much as Huffman suggested may have been the case with the moulin Gale, and the African crested porcupine. One of the reasons to suspect that the maroons may well have learned from the tapir is that so much more evidence of animal use of medicinal plants has come to light since scientists began searching for it over the course of the past few decades. Chimps are the best documented group in terms of plant use from additional purposes. And it may be argued that their utilization of healing plants is somehow not particularly representative of the plant kingdom, because these primates are so closely related to us and so intelligent. The great apes are in fact known to employ over 30 species of plants from medicinal purposes. This may well represent what scientists call an artifact of collection, meaning that the most attractive, conspicuous and human like animals receive the most attention, hence we conclude that these species use more medicinal plants than other creatures. In fact, the more we look the more we find, even the literature contains along an extensive list of animals, mostly mammals, probably for the reasons noted above, consuming botanicals for purposes which are presumably therapeutic. A recent paper and science magazine by Jacobo de rodeo of Emory university, noted that fruit flies lay their eggs in high ethanol foods like the fermented marula fruits so beloved by James chimps to deter gradation by wasps. Wood ants add antimicrobial resins essentially antibiotics from pine trees to determine microbial growth much as the ancient Greeks added terabytes resin to wine to prevent spoilage, and sparrows and finches have been found to in fact add cigarette butts to their nest to deter might infestations because nicotine has long been used to repel insects. Another example is pigs who are notoriously prone to parasite worm infestations, wild boars in both India and Mexico consume plants with known anti helminthic that is anti worm properties. Pigweed in India, and pomegranate roots in Mexico. Yet there's an unusual twist to this peak story. In India, local people extract and use a worm killing medicine from the pigweed roofs, but though pomegranate root bark is known to contain an alkaloid that kills tapeworms neither the pig nor the pomegranate is native to Mexico. The Spanish brought both to the new world. The pigs none the less selectively seek out and consume the roots of this tree as their ancestors once did in the old world. In the course of his decades of research on tropical plants and animals, the aforementioned ecologist Dan janson, unearth the paper published in 1939 which noted that the Asian two horned rhinoceros was observed eating so much of the tannin rich bark of the red mangrove that its urine was stained bright orange. Tannins or a major component of some over the counter anti diarrheal preparations such as and to revisa form. Jansen is noted that the concentration of tannins in the bladder of the rhino necessary to change the color of its urine was undoubtedly sufficient to have an impact on parasites in the creatures, bladder or urinary tract. These animal plant interactions have also been observed outside the tropics. Shaun 6, a laconic Harvard trained ethnobotanist now living in Colorado has focused his studies on the plants animals and peoples of the American West. 6 stats favorite plants are a small genus of herbs known as Lagos to come. But he's not the only one captivated by this somewhat nondescript little herb. When bears encounter the plant, they exhibit peculiar behavior. Augusta can functions in effect as an ursin catnip. 6 step once observed lagus dem roots thrown into a brown bear zoon closure and a brawl ensued. The Victor carried the roots to a corner of the cage, chewed them up, spread them out, rub them all over his face and body, both grizzlies and polar bears have proven similarly enamored of this little plant. The navajos of Arizona taught 6 debt that the name for Augusta comes in their language translates in English as bare medicine. These tribal people's value of this plant as a treatment for many ailments, treatments whose effectiveness is borne out by chemical analysis, the documented the presence of compounds that are both anticoagulant and antibacterial, as well as other chemicals that may combat both fungi and insect burman. To the navajos, the bear is the sacred creature, and their creation tails, these animals are considered experts in the use of medicines. Sixt was a bit surprised that his findings were considered so astonishing when he began reporting them in the late 1980s. After all he told me, dear an Elk have long been known to chew Aspen park, which contains compounds similar to aspirin. Why should bears be any less adept at using plants than these creatures? He also feels that people's amazement upon discovering that bears were using these plants may have more to do with our own perception and categorization. He went on to say we tend to place a somewhat artificial barrier between food and medicine, where an accurate description is probably better described as a complex mosaic. This animal behavior noted by sixte has also been observed in tropical America. Long those relatives of the raccoon have been observed rubbing the resin of a tropical relative of myrrh and frankincense into their fur, presumably to kill a repel lice mosquitos ticks and other noxious vermin. The capuchin monkey of tropical America have similar practices, but are known to utilize a wider variety of plant species. Capuchins have observed rubbing 8 different plants into their fur. Of these four him, a piper, proteome and virola, rank among the most common medicinal plants used by tribal peoples of the Amazon rainforest, and at least two of these are used by Native Americans to treat skin problems as well. Capuchin monkeys in Costa Rica, massage a mixture of the Himalaya tree, which is a legume. And into their fur. The surname maroons collect these same dried resin and make it into a tea to treat diarrhea and burn it to keep away flying insects. Laboratory analysis is revealed that this resin harbors compounds that repel insects and anthropologists observe these monkeys rubbing for other plants into their fur as well. Peasants in the region use three related species to repel insects and also to treat skin problems. And the trio peoples who live just south of the moons in the northeast Amazon have repeatedly told me they watch and learn medicinal species by observing the primates in their rain forest home. As a final example, I want to talk a bit about birds. They also appear to be making use of plants as both medicines and pesticides, investigators were puzzled as to why penguins had almost no parasites or other harmful microorganisms in their digestive tract. Further field study revealed that penguins were consuming blue green algae on a regular basis. And these marine organisms are often loaded with potent chemical compounds. Other birds most definitely use plans for non food purposes, which could conceivably lead us to new and useful compounds in the process. Hawks have long been known to place brigs of green leaves in their nest. This is important fresh material. Here's why. Birds now note that hawk select only the live branches of certain tree species and replace the dead or dying leaves in their nests with this fresh material every few days. The red tail hawk, for example, uses the leaves of the cottonwood and quaking Aspen while the bald eagle, our national symbol chooses the sedge and the needles of the white pine, and a classic study of this phenomenon, Brad MacDonald of ripon college found that 7 species of raptors that is birds like hawks and eagles. We're using over 12 species of plants. The other scientists have advanced hypotheses to explain this behavior from camouflaging the nest to advertising nest occupancy. McDonald's group tested these plants in the lab and found that all effectively repel insects. In this particular experiment, houseflies, while the scientists suggest that these leaves are also noxious to other vermin like mites and bacteria. Because these birds are carnivore, the adults regularly carry dead or dying creatures to the nest to feed their offspring. The blood and decomposing flesh of these prey items attract a steady stream of insects and bacteria that have the capacity to weaken and kill the young birds by using the green plants that they do, the adult raptors protect their offspring in what is probably the first known ornithological case of preventative medicine and may be antibiotics as well. Compared to the trees of the temperate forest, the chemical composition of rainforest tree leaves is relatively unstudied. And McDonald's research, he noted that antibacterial compounds had already been isolated from the leaves of one of these plant species before he began a study. Similar investigations of whether tropical birds employ local leaves for repellent and or bacterial purposes are now underway. But Neil Reddick, the foremost authority on the world's largest eagle, the Amazonian harpy has already observed that these magnificent creatures apply live branches of the giant monitor to their nests in a similar fashion. And what might be an insect repellent for the birds might conceivably one day prove to be a safe and effective insect repellent or antibiotic for us as well. If we can find new painkillers from frogs, new stimulants from porcupines, new antiparasitics from penguins, new antibiotics from chimps, and new contraceptive from woolly spider monkeys, what else might be out there in the forest on the Prairie or inside the coral reef, being used by local species and awaiting our discovery of its benefit to our own species. What might have already been lost, when the Portuguese first arrived on the eastern shore of Brazil 500 years ago, the population of Maurice monkeys probably numbered in the hundreds of thousands. Now their population has been reduced to a few hundred individuals and more than 90% of their once magnificent rainforest has been destroyed. Who knows what we lost, either in terms of the actual chemicals, the species that produce them or the primate knowledge of how to use them. Not only for their benefit, but potentially for ours as well. Hey guys, this is Tim again just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is 5 bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me and would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And 5 full of Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to four hour workweek dot com. That's four hour workweek dot com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by block 5. Block 5 is building a bridge between cryptocurrencies and traditional financial and wealth management products. The creating innovative products to advance the digital asset ecosystem for both individual and institutional investors and its platform now manages more than 12 billion in essence. Full disclosure I became excited enough about this company that I ended up becoming an investor with moving on. Lock 5 that's BLO CK FI offers a wide spectrum of services and I'll mention just a few here. 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Dennis McKenna  The Depths of Ayahuasca: 500+ Sessions, Fundamentals, Advanced Topics, Science, Churches, Learnings, Warnings, and Beyond (#523)

The Tim Ferriss Show

2:02:51 hr | 3 months ago

Dennis McKenna The Depths of Ayahuasca: 500+ Sessions, Fundamentals, Advanced Topics, Science, Churches, Learnings, Warnings, and Beyond (#523)

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They've got all sorts of cool stuff to choose from. I was skeptical and actually worked. It worked much better than i could have imagined. And i'm very very happy so to find your perfect sufa. Checkout all dot com slash. Tim that's a l. l. f. o. m. dot com slash. Tim all forms offering twenty percents off all orders to you my dear listeners at all forum dot com slash. Tim make sure to use the code. Tim at checkout. That's all forum dot com slash. Tim and use code. Tim at checkout. More altitude i can flat out. My hand starts shaking now. It nettie organism living a metal episode. Hello boys and girls ladies and germs. This is tim ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the tim. Ferriss show and i wanna skip my long usual preamble because we're going to run out of time before we run out of material with today's guest. I've been looking forward to this conversation for longtime many many years. In fact dennis. Kenner find him on twitter at dennis mckenna. Four and will provide many other links. Dennis research is focused on the interdisciplinary study of amazonian. Ethno pharmacology. he's conducted extensive ethnic botanical. Fieldwork in the peruvian amazon and we will define a lotta terms in episode. So don't worry about getting lost in the weeds too quickly. His doctoral research at the university of british columbia focused on the ethnic pharmacology of iowa and kuei. And we'll double check the pronunciation to trip to me. Based solution used by indigenous peoples in the northwest amazon he is a founding board member of the hefty research institute which does exceptional work and was a key organizer and participant in the horoscope project that h a project the first biomedical investigation of wasco. He's the younger brother of terence mckenna from two thousand to two thousand seventeen. He taught courses on ethnic pharmacology as well as plants and human affairs at the center for spirituality and healing at the university of minnesota in two thousand nineteen. In collaboration with colleagues he incorporated a new nonprofit mckenna academy of natural philosophy which we will discuss in the spring of two thousand. Nineteen emigrated to canada with his wife. Sheila and now resides in abbotsford. British columbia. You can find him on all the socials instagram at dennis mckenna twitter at dennis mckenna four facebook at dennis john j. o. n. mckenna and also mckenna academy that's m. c. e. n. n. a. academy on facebook on instagram and on twitter dennis. Welcome to the show. Thank you pleasure to be here. I thought i would. I would start with a bit of history and pulling some colorful characters. While we're at it. Could you please describe your first meeting. With richard evans shelties and that can kind of segue into who shelties was. But i really enjoyed this story in your book. The brotherhood of screaming a best which we'll talk about. I printed out my amazon kindle. Highlights i one hundred eighty nine highlights from that. We're not gonna go through them all but let's start with your meeting with shelties if you wouldn't mind. Shelties was a professor at harvard. He's been called the father of esto. Botany he certainly was not. Because if the botany as disciplining system before there was scholte's but he was one of the mark high profile people. He was like director of the botanical museum at harvard university for many years and he is. He made many contributions to amazonian but they the one as most notorious for most well known for as he was probably the world's expert on what we used to call hallucinogenic plants psychedelic plants used in different parts of the world but that was what made him so famous and like many people. I envision to career in ethno far metrology for myself which is something that i sort of realized was possible eight team. We can go back to this. This is earlier than shoal taste. What i got my hands on. This amazing book called the athol pharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs. But i digress. We can return to that. Social tease was a figure of just a towering figure in this fetal like einstein in physics sir of that stature and many many people with a passion about psychedelic plants indigenous. say use. These things you know looked up. Two shelties want to work with him. And i just one of those and in nineteen seventy four. I was living in berkeley with my brother or close by brother who was living there and determined to go see the great man you know make a pilgrimage. Essentially two shelties. those days. There was a deal. You could buy a bus tikka sixty dollars for sixty days and you could get as far as you could go as low. He you kept it within sixty days. So i made this pilgrimage to harvard to cambridge and was your starting point while i started at berkeley and i went. I down to louisiana hammond. Louisiana visited some friends abide who owned a leather shop a hippie leather shop of wonderful bunch of people ready to leather shop in this totally read the town wide. Did i go see them. While i went to see them because they live out in the country where there were pastures of candles. I went there. Basically the hunt for mushrooms. And you know in my idea in my assistant team. Seventy four by idea was well. You know i'll get a bunch of mushrooms and dry. I'm taken back california's silla well. It was like the worst season for mushrooms like five years. They lived there. So i went down there and i did find some mushrooms but just a few plenty for mile needs but i did have grocery bags of the like that. That was the first place i went. Was hammond louisiana. And then i just got on. The bus continued on. I stopped saw. Interestingly the center in maryland who have steadied the yellow mummy. One of the amazonian tribes uses the psychedelic snaps. He was a linguist he was probably one of the few people in the world of actually spoke yet. He had some interesting samples that he'd collected. I went there. Basically to pick up those samples in hang on with him and then. I continued up to boston. And i had an old girlfriend who have been delivered busted so And we were still on good terms. So so i went there. I had a place to stay alert. I i mean i. I saw shelties before i saw the girlfriend but i basically got off the bus and went immediately to the botanical museum. It was an incredible experience for me. Because i just like total off of this bam. I mean it was like it was like an audience with the pope or something you know. But he was pope like at all. He was just a very down to earth ordinary person and he welcomed me and took me the lunch at the harvard faculty club and we talked about what i could work on. And what would you like to do. Was the way the conversation start out. So because and i had been to columbia nineteen seventy one at one of the things we were looking for was this who crew. Hey this orally active arolla preparation which eventually ended up being one of the pho sigh of my doctoral work but that was ten years in the future but i was interested in varela. I was interested in those snuffs. And he's well. You could go to the amazon study varela and sort out the chemistry of it so he said that would be a possibility. I'd totally appreciate that door slept. He said well they're two things you need to do before you do that. I had by degree. I've got my undergraduate degree in nineteen seventy three. But he said you need more chemistry and you need to take more organic chemistry in who needs to take or taxonomy which you know as plan classification mc classic approach to play classification. So i said yes sir. Absolutely you know i got the best age i got back on the bus i went back to berkeley and i move back to colorado weren't from even though i had by actress degree. I just didn't rolled in a couple of horses and fast organic chemistry and the taxonomy specialty shows to look. It was grass systematics which was torture. Systematic classification is. The most are came difficult thing you could do. It must have had something about wanting to punish myself. But i studied grasses dramatic sudden organic chemistry and a interesting unexpected delight in this was the person that was the chemistry teacher of this or chemistry course abandoning. Franks turbulence turns out. He was quite a well-known alkaloid chemist. He used the illustration lectures with well. So here's lsd. Here's how you make st. Here's how the fungus makes lsd. And he was a brilliant guy another mentor. He was sent. Well don't go work for shelties schoolwork for dorm. Farnsworth chicago No no you don't understand. Shelties thought and social -ties encouraged me to apply. If i was getting these courses that he thought. I really need to have at my transcripts of i applied and i didn't get in you know did not get accepted into harvard. Which was kind of a crushing blow. But not unexpected. It wasn't blessing in disguise. Subways because while all this was going on as living in fort collins colorado going to colorado state by friend larry beasley was an old from high school. He was an horticulturalist and as it turned out he was reading to greenhouse colorado state university. What i moved there. So i had access to the greenhouse and rodman samaya wasco cuttings that we have from california at also have access to a sterile culture by. They were done tissue culture there which can also be adapted to join fungal culture and i was missing around with ways to try to figure out how to grow the selassie she bassus at. I had access to a university labs to do this work which was amazing and we tried a few savings and actually succeeded in growing mushrooms. Out of these. Mason jars on sterilized substrates. You probably familiar with the book. Silla cyber magic mushroom grower's guide which is bubbly sundered. Sooner vans one of your great sion's to humankind maybe the most significant contribution but that was the method that we developed there and in the process of growing the mushrooms and then sampling the mushrooms and just getting excited about the able to grow mushrooms. I thought well. Maybe i'll change my focus from varela to sylphides mushrooms and i wrote to show tastes about this and i what would you think that that he wrote back rather head of stuffy letter you know saying well. I by specialties. Is higher plants. But i think if you wanna work on fungi you should talk to dr alexander rates smith of the university of michigan. But basically say subtext floats your trader. How dare you not really. I mean he was okay there. There was subsequent encounters but he he basically said if you want to study amazonian plants. I'm elliot i'd be happy to have the and as it turned out i didn't get accepted so that opportunity was taken away but the unexpected benefit of this was that some years later while this was seventy four so after that a by masters at the university of hawaii not studying psychoactive plants by plots to study psychoactive plants. There was under buying. But i ended up applying to university of british columbia by. I started there in eighteen. Seventy nine and my supervisor. There was a man named neil towers also kind of a giant in this field not as gigantic As but very much known in the world of fido chemistry and if body and so on and he was quite open to me working on mushrooms. I actually started out in his program because he'd come to way while i was a graduate student there and my supervisor hawaii was another one of these incredible mentors. The i've been blessed with through my academic career. Sandy siegel dr siegel. Whatever anybody came to visit a visiting professor dignitary gave it always invite the graduate students up to his house late sit around and have pizza beer and shoot. The breeze with the whatever luminary was in town. Dr towers was one of the luminaries in the process of having this conversation he said i've got this Young master student working on the celebrities. Were key down. The enzyme that converts suicide into cillizza phosphates. And he's not getting very far with it but it's a very interesting project which there was somebody to continue that work practically spit by beer out. So they Well dr pepper towers. I've had some interested miss. And what do you think about. Let me do it to end. What are you thinking about taking me. On this about your. You're interested at the possibility. So we started corresponding and i was like midway through by master's thesis in hawaii at that point to be started corresponding and i got accepted. Now i got was dr towers support. I actually got a four year graduate fellowship. I started working on celebi and the idea. I have developed a technique for growing them. Dennis may i pause for just one second. Certainly many tangents on tangents is actually kind of. There's any theme to this show. It is it is embracing tangents. But i want to just mention a few things and ask a couple of questions but i want you to bookmark that so. We're sure we're we're in canada or headed to candidate at that point. But i just want to mention if you think so. Is it true that when you first met shelties when you walked in. He was effectively hugging in air conditioner. And the reason i ask. Is that if you look at photographs of shelties in his prime it very much vokes and indiana jones minus the tomb rating of course resilience and durability. I mean you see him native dress you see him. Roy really fully engaged is not just an observer but as a participant and he spent more than a decade is as. I understand it so scout cheating years fifteen years in the amazon and this is nine flying first class no to do the amazon. So first exposure to him was him hugging in air conditioner. Is i understand. Yeah well he was obviously a little past his prime point. What i took this bus got off the bus. It was like early. September with a sweltering summer and i got off the bus so they took by backpack bust of looked a mass sunday. I didn't literally on the bus for four day. But i got to his office that i went to the desk downstairs. I said i'm here to see dr Elise upstairs in his office. So i went upstairs and could anybody there. There was nobody at the reception desk. And i sort of appeared in this dark room with all the blinds closed and wiping the sweat from my brow. I mean i can see him back in the back of this office laboratory not. He had there and he was hugging the air conditioning. Or if you might as well use it. I suppose your other avenues only charted you know 'cause i expected this swashbuckling like you say indiana jones cdo tough guy and he was all those things but you got an air conditioner. You may as well hugging. Yeah it was very disheartening. I love it. I absolutely love it. Let me let me also pick up on a couple of other points and ask just a couple of definitions people listening which we'll get to in a minute. But i would like to read a few things from the brotherhood of the screaming. This if you're willing to bear with me because surely get will hopefully help tie some things together in the minds of those. Who are not familiar with your background. And your work. So sanford siegel who you mentioned. So research interests among many other things included exobiology. But i want to read just a paragraph about him from your book and then three sections that i pulled out about science. It's gonna take me a minute but if you bear with me. So this is from the book and on sanford siegel. This is where the extra quote. In his nasa funded work he was extremely creative thinking about stress physiology and extreme environments for example. He wondered what would happen if you tried to grow. Cactus underwater turns out. It grows fine as long as you bubble oxygen and carbon dioxide to the water. How well does torrential this survive under a radiation flux similar to that at a martian surface survive just fine for months. can you jerk onion seedlings in liquid ammonia as a substitute for water. Yes you can substitute for water and many biological processes. He had a genius for thinking of these incredibly creative exciting and simple experiments and yet they all had a rationale on a reason behind them. He was an out of the box thinker. And then i'm going to jump to what you said separately in the book about science quote i new scientific thought had its limits but before we could reject science the most powerful intellectual tools ever developed by the human mind we i had to learn how to do science then. If we still wanted to reject it we could do so a scientist with full knowledge of what it was. We were rejecting. I think these these really really important tied together. Because you have such broad exposure and as i understand that there were many influences early on two of which were i believe. It was the yawkey way of knowledge by carlos custody even though subsequently a lot of people in your where this came to conclude that a lot of that if not most of it was fictionalized. End a book that. I have about twenty feet from here. Which is the first edition of something you already mentioned the ethno pharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs. Es pd and from nineteen sixty seven. I have the updated. I should say updated but a second volume from two thousand seventeen which you organized a fiftieth anniversary. Could you speak to perhaps the the appeal of science. Because what i've noticed in the. Let's call the psychedelic. Ecosystem is that you have purists in many different silos. If that makes sense and part of the reason i i've been so excited to spend time with you is because you have been a boundary walker of sorts across these different silos. What is it that drew you most to science. And the scientific method in addition to some of the facets perhaps represented by custody. This work in some respect. I think the nine hundred sixty seven sixty eight were like ears for me in terms of discovery of way professional direction of my professional interests as well as being psychedelics. These are also very personal but that year nineteen sixty eight years of these. Two books came across by desk. The teachings of the first edition that my brother day before my eighteenth birthday and they the athol pharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs. Which i had not even sure. I don't remember where. I originally got the first edition but that had come across my radar a few months earlier and these two books were very important for me in terms of framing my interests. It made me aware that there was this. Ethnographic background these traditional backups. Even though we probably most people agree that castenada made a lot of this stuff up. Didn't really matter. It doesn't really matter at made it clear that there was a body of traditional knowledge around the use of these things whether what he described was accurate or but didn't matter that was one page one side of the frame. And then the esto firm clubs search for psychoactive goods made me aware that a lot of this was about chemistry and plants pharmacology molecules. And and you know a more. Hard science biologically oriented aspect to it so these two things seem to fit together very well and i thought there's still pharmacology is a real thing you know at least to the extent that this book exists. It's a real thing and could you define ethno pharmacology pharmacology. There's various definitions of it. The one i like is kind of. That's kind of law. But i'll explain why i like it. So if the pharmacology is the interdisciplinary by definition interdisciplinary scientific investigation of biologically active substances used or observe by humans in traditional societies. And the reason. It's so tortured is it's not all about plants. It's not always about medicinal plants. It's not always about things that humans ingest for example arrow poisons totally legitimate kind of subject for ethel pharmacology and then traditional societies kind of limits the scope. We're talking about not. I mean in some sense all of pharmacology is pharmacology. Because it's people doing it you know. But we're talking about traditional knowledge indigenous knowledge. That sort of thing. That's a formal difference has colleges the highlight. And i think it's also worth hiding for folks and you would have. I'm sure dozens or hundreds of examples. How many commonly used compounds are drugs. Have come out of in some form ethnic pharmacology whether it be aspirin or you mentioned dr poisons that leading then into anesthesia and the list goes on and on and on. There's so many things we take for granted that have their origins in these places the whole spectrum really of what you're talking about natural products especially for things that cms active natural products. And so they come out of a cultural context we know about these things because they have a cultural context and if you look at even just herbal medicines herbal remedies every one of these things you can buy it in the in the drugstore. The health food store has a story behind. It has a cultural back story. And then entrepreneurial forces in commercial forces take that and develop products out but for example. Kavakava is a good example of that. I mean it's now a supplement and you can buy it at health historic very useful muscle relaxant and sort of tranquilizer but it comes out of the context of politician traditional medicine many many sensors that way. So there's always a cultural back story. That's what i liked about if so far trilogy at ties those kinds of things together with the nixon bull of water the active ingredients. What's the capitol street. what's the pharmacology. So if you don't mind. This is a bit sticky catholic. But i would love to jump into this volume the fiftieth anniversary volume of the ethno pharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs. And just as background and please correct michigan this wrong but the the nine hundred sixty seven gathering was subsidized by the us government. I think it was the was at the nih. And i m h. That's right national sotoudeh of mental health. And so you had this gathering of titans of sorts to discuss exactly as the title would imply with no pharmacologic search for sect drugs after which a volume was produced printed and sold by the government which included the findings and spice to say shortly thereafter. You have the nixon administration the controlled substances act and game over. And then you organized this fiftieth anniversary and just people an idea of the contents. And also i want to tell people if you interested in the science is published by synergetic press. You can find it on the synergetic press website as well as on amazon. This is a beautifully produced double volume where you have the nineteen sixty seven and then the to seventeen addition the contents are just fascinating and one of them that i'd love to dig into and doesn't necessarily have to. Our discussion doesn't have to be reflective exclusively of the content this broad spectrum roles of harming in iowa by dale millard. Could you speak to some of the more. Recent findings related to wasco which could include this discussion of harming. But i think a lot of folks have assumed that iowa sca has the psychedelic grew principally containing bannister absence. Copy this vine and a plant source containing gmt like chuck who now or other psychotropic rita's that the divine really just serves to render the gmt orally absorbable or active. But it seems like there's a lot more to the story does do that it. it does do that. it's the nfl inhibitor. Boeing oxidation hitter renders the the dot containing that mixture plants. Acting because the t. itself as you know is that orally active if you just take in pure or if you make a t of croona what whatever these then trinket by self. Nothing's going to happen. Unless you have a male embitter on board. but it turns out the alkaloids of bannister apsis. These beta carbon liens are much more than just mayo inhibitors. for example. One of the primary alkaloids in muscat is harvey and harvey is a strong inhibitor. But it also stimulates neurogenesis nerve growth and these are recent find aids. Another constituent in iowa is related alkaloid called tetra hydro harming which is an ma l. inhibitor. But also a serotonin reuptake him better. So it has like sri type activity and also some other unexpected things for one say in this was came out of our wash to study. In brazil it has long term effects on the levels of the serotonin transporters in the brain the serotonin transporters are the presynaptic Take serotonin out of the synapse of recycles. Every release it well like. Sri's tetra to harming inhibits that but it also causes a long-term elevation in the levels of the serotonin transporters and that was unique. Finding we didn't know what to expect that came out of the study. It was kinda surprising but then we found this effect. You know this is all done. This is all in vitro. We took tissue samples platelets samples and so out of this was all done in the lab but we found this persistent elevating effect on the serotonin transporters. We thought what is that. Be really clear. We were asking naive. Question is there anything. Biochemical makes regular iowa could drinkers different bio chemically. The normal people are other people in. This was one clear difference. We didn't really know what it meant. But then we look into the literature and we found out. There were a number of pathologies that were associated with abnormal deficits in the serotonin transporters for example various kinds of alcoholism addiction suicidality even homicidal behavior various kinds of behavioral pathologies which happened to be the very pathologies. That many of the people are develop study. Were saying i was saved the usually from alcoholism that was usually their problem. And if they stayed in the church in the supportive context and drank iowa irregularly. They stayed on track. A many they were on track. These were very behaviorally. Psychologically functional people not sick if they were sick they were cured of attributed to iowa's get and then at our in vitro studies in a couple of vile essays. We found that it was really tetra. Harming lit was heaviness effect and the course of action was over about two weeks at my friend. Jase calloway who was one of the investigators of this and figured out how to do it. He had access to brain imaging technology at his laboratory. In in finland he was the post docs in in finland so he tried taking tetra hydra harming himself the imaging himself and showed while sure enough it did raise the levels of serotonin transporters on about a two week cycle. I've met a few stop taking. It went back down to base sled. So does that mean. On the two week cycle that after one administration the levels remained elevated for two weeks or that it required two weeks of administration to elevate in require about two weeks of continuous administration to bring it to that level and that kind of that was the cycle that the customarily. They took it every couple of weeks. Not that they knew about this affair last just their practice. I guess they knew about in a sense. They indirectly knew about the effect. But not the mechanism right is run and and for for people who don't know you probably never mispronounced. But that's the win yaldo vegetal something like that. One of the syncretic churches fact. Yeah i should have explained that one of the socratic churches the group that invited in to do this biomedical study in the early nineties. That was one of the chief funds just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by wealth front. 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I don't wanna say admixtures but concentrations of different things in different bruce for different purposes too. Are you aware of that existing within the ud. yes yes. The u d does have that they do have different formulations and so on and they don't talk about it. We were not able to get any information out of on about that. Other than the fact that yes. We do. have these different formulations. I mean we came up against a couple of interesting things about what we were dealing with. The u d which was that. They were very concerned that ios or wasco as they called it be viewed as a sacrament. Narayan medicine you know and so if you wanted a drug right that'd be a big much less drug. They did like the idea that you would study it as drug. They were totally open to doing biomedical study. But as far as going the next step and looking into mechanisms and that sort of thing they were kind of conflicted about that it could see the value of it but they didn't like the idea of godless science delve into their central mystery. Sacrament you know among could understand that but as a result of that we we lost some opportunities to do some interesting say totally. I wonder if that would be different now because my understanding i think i got this from the book is that or maybe. It was from different reading that i did of yours. That part of the reason for their cooperation was politically legally motivated. In the sense that they wanted the local slash national government and potential policymakers to view this as beneficial and so they will open to showing the benefits. but they didn't want reductionist science to as you put it. Remove the mystery by explaining some secular mechanism of action. Yeah there was definitely a political aspect to this. This is a big reason why they wanted this work to be done by outside investigators. Who presumably would you know if was just. Udv and there worst scientists in the tv. It was a middle to upper class demographic segments that they wanted people from the outside to be the chief. Investigators to avoid. The perception of the work would be biased. And that's one reason. I got invited. Charlie grow was the chief principal investigator. I invited him to do that so he became so they wanted. This regulatory agency call cotton fan tied deve combination of the da the fda. They wanted to present data to confirm that showed that this was not a public health. Menace ore danger and also that it was beneficial or potentially beneficial so there was differently. A political sub agenda here but as it turned out. I mean we just did. The science and the science supported that it was beneficial. Almost all of our subtext such joined the you in a state of life crisis and they felt like the medicine that t is they called and the very supportive context of the udv. They said that's equally necessary. But they felt like that was a vessel for redemption essentially an turning their lives around. And so it's a complex thing. It's a complicated matter. I am endlessly fascinated by the syncretic churches. That use because the sacrament. I think there's so much that can be learned when you have these relatively large groups consuming twice per month. I mean it's incredible opportunity question for you around iowa because thinking we've already alluded to this but in the minds of some iowa one thing right it's like a it's like an old fashioned that's always made the same way but there are many different cocktails that could be called iowa's gun in the brotherhood of the screaming abyss. You talk very briefly about. I'm not sure if you called this in the book but chug along which is also. I think it's a diplomat terrorists coveted us pronounced harris. Did words i only read. I never hear it which by some like the in this called and said different plant from the chocolate on the did you ever have the opportunity to consume ios with the technical pango. Yes yes yeah it experience. Did you find it to be different well. I only consumed it a few times. I found it to be a shorter acting. And you know in terms of the visionary stage of the experience and also more intense. So there's something pharmacokinetic Going on there with the absorption of it but people are mistaken. Missed a is one. I was very complex in the cultural context. It's very complex thing. There are many varieties of The vine there than all these admixture plans some of which contain emt and varieties of those and then a whole pharmacopoeia of other ethics plants. That are more or less associated with wasco. they're part of the diaz which is a common practice in the amazon. You learn about the properties of other medicinal plants by taking them. And then you take a ska either in combination or after your take some f you learn about their properties from the visions that i was to give you about their so. Iowa is like the pipeline to plant wisdom in a certain way to tap into this. What your call it guy in mind that's represented by these many aperture class so there's a whole lot of work left to be done with iowa ska and looking into more deaths than we were able to look at that time. That's one of the projects that were trying to get off the ground with mcadoo academy we want to do a very extensive phytochemicals botanical survey of different iowa. Bruise document their preparation document. The plants that go into them and then follow that up with bio essays. And just get a better handle on the varieties of these different burs their uses. Why would meet care. Why do we want to do this. Well is gathering knowledge. It's gathering information but the potential practical outcome of this is that you can formulate bruise. That might be specific for different types of disorders. You know maybe some work better for addiction. Some work better for trauma some work better for depression or that sort of thing. All of this is supported by the fork. But there's been nothing like a control study of this. It's very hard to get funding to study. I watkin at clinical setting. Because not up. Pure compound doesn't lend itself to the same kind of double-blind placebo control protocols that you can use with something like suicide but yes complicated is very very very seems very complex. I'd love to ask you about one particular plant which it's hard to tell them apart. Sometimes because it depends on the orientation could be dot with a metal or could be monthly. I wanna ask you about putting also called florida ponturo toy. Do you think there's a place for that. It scares the hell out of me. And i know it's a sometimes used but what. What is your position if any on on well first of all right to be scared. This is a very dangerous plant. It is that only toxic but it produces a kind of delirium psychedelic. I sometimes say by lectures. It's a true hallucinogen but not psychedelic by that. I mean psychedelics. You see hallucinations sometimes. Heidi is or whatever you usually know that these things are hallucinations with zia. Which used to be called. The genus is for close to deterrent. That they used to be classified as tours. But detroit the experiences that you have you see hallucinations and utah. Tell if they're real or and so in that sense it's a true hallucinogen but it starts like daily and it is it's produces a state of profound disorientation and delirium essentially so. It's us very badly. It's used as a date rape drug and things like that in brazil colombia and it's often associated with bru- horea in the iowa tradition another words. Black magic sorcery and a few take brew of iowa that contains tura or break band. Zia you can tell because it causes this dry mouth sensation. Which is typical of these. Anti cholinergic Lectoure is at the this gopala mean exactly on sculling so you can tell if you're taking i waspa- that's got ta away. Is the traditional word for for these states. Tow away -til e accent. That's a good sign that you're dealing with abreu ho and a good sign that you should get the hell out of there because they have your best interests at heart and or unlikely to that said i. You have two dollars. The has a place in in this whole iowa complex there may be people look in practitioners could use it beneficially but my own with deterrent which you probably read about that in the book you know that secured me away. Dole idea what i'm getting into. I was we. Were very lucky we have children. So yeah there are documented. Lots of documentary talent. He's with both of those. And i think it's i wanted to mention to bring that up just because there are risks associated with a lot of these things yeah documented fatalities with tobacco over ingestion. Tobacco juice amazon. I used to be really really careful. And i want to come back to second to this. Hired gun aspect. I think is you. Put it in the book in the world of vegetarians. More and in this. Let's just call at the medicine role in south america it. It's not the case that everyone is focused. Actually rarely the case. That practitioners are exclusively focused on how we preps view these medicines in north america for healing for the contending with and processing of trauma the cosmic vision and the use case is much much broader. And i just want to mention one more which is even if you don't believe in black magic or anything like that you can believe in manipulation and the like you mentioned in columbia as one example and elsewhere although i think that people are gonna hip to this and law enforcement is to perhaps the uses declined but it was very common that crime syndicates would take the moncia extract or somehow purify kepala me and then they would have prostitutes or other people below the powder into the faces of victims and this this is the crazy part that i want to highlight for folks that after which sometimes these victims would be brought to their own home they would help the perpetrators load everything in their house into a loading van and they would appear totally normal to say the doormen and so on and twelve hours later having no recollection of what they did. I mean it's it's wild. I mean it brings up kind of these visions of the serpent and the rainbow. Like these are the. It's it's it's crazy to think about it is they appear totally accept that they're helping load all the furniture into their elevator at three in the mortgage. The yeah i think it was vice dot com. The vice did a good a good piece on Goodson yeah so. So that's the thing the the detroit the Fancy confuses you and makes you extremely successful so you get this stuff inside you and then people say well. Let's go to your apartment. Didn't take out all the furniture. Let's go to your atm. And take out all your money and you say oh well that sounds like a good idea so black magic aside to differently does have to be magic. It just puts you in such a state of confusion. Susceptibility suggests ability. That's the way it works. It really is so fascinating simultaneously sometimes terrifying to go really deep into the rabbit hole with this. Could you speak to traditional use of plant medicine in iowa. Hearkening back to the mention of the sort of non inherent good nature of practitioners. Or i always get the non inherently bad nature sort of this new troll available for hire aspect. In some instances that i think a lot of people are not aware of. Could you speak to to that a bit. there are. there are people who don't really have your best interests at heart and there are other people other practitioners who really are amazing. Healers and help a great deal of people but the thing is that. The context of traditional uses changed due to outside cultural influences. Because like anything else. The people want to give the extra taros the ios guitarist or whatever they want to give up their buddies worth and so the nature of the ceremonies. Changes has changed in response to this. I mean back in the day before. There wasn't anything like when i go. Usage was still Tribal based tradition by wasn't the oldest outside influence. It was the shaman. Who took iowa skit. Not the people rarely with the irs could be given to a person that came to the ceremony unless there was some specific illness or something they wanted specifically to be treated but it was the scarecrow who had the visions that downloaded the information about the plans of other kinds of practices. They might engage in to help people with healer. Well that's all changed. They outside influence of global culture. People are not gonna go. South americans spend all this money to sit and watch somebody to have the experience and that's okay. I think it's just fascinating what we're seeing. Go on now with the iowa tourism. Saying is definitely a complex thing. It's not necessarily completely bad thing or completely good thing. It's it's a mixed bag because many people are helped by this and all the coming down they bring economic benefits to these communities but then those are not equitably distributed. Get a situation where the local iowa sterile who used to be just some guy or some gal was a person in the village. Who did this work on. The side of may had their own livelihood. Far fishing eater. Whatever will now. These people are kind of superstars and they get a lot of income. It generates a lot of jealousy within the community where that can happen. They also get priced out of the local market. Exactly they'd get priced out a local market. There is a pressure on the resource base. I awoke in the extra plants are being over harvested. And there's not enough effort being made to really make sure. The sources are sustainable. But that's changing. A market is adjusting to this. But these these changes take place over. They take years and they're very hopeful trends now. People are becoming more aware of some of the issues with overharvesting. So let me pull another paragraph here. And then i wanna ask you a question about some of your personal experiences and this is related to the science that was brought earlier. There are many things in heaven and earth that are beyond the ken of science and they remain so forever. Anyone who's taken psychedelic seriously or as had other. Transcendent experiences is likely to share that conclusion. At the same time science remains the most effective method for asking questions of nature and getting back answers that can be tested and validated. So you fascinate these on. So many different levels have actually read much more of your writing than i have. Read the writing of your brother and part of the fen diagram that makes you such a subjective interest to me is the the scientific. Let's call it the esoteric and the personal and i've heard in other interviews you talk about when prompted you. Don't just volunteer this. When people ask about the number of sessions you have done with. Let's say i. It seems to number even though you don't keep track in the five hundred plus i'd say something in that range and as far as i know you're not a member of one of these in critic churches where people drink twice a month so people can do the math. If someone does that for decades it adds up. I would love for you to speak to because many people will hear that and they'll say well wait a second you once it changes your life and then you're kinda done. Why on earth would you ever do it so many times and just love to hear you speak to them. Partly it's because of the context in which i have used iowa brought other people to south america to have these experiences. I've organized retreat. So that sort of thing. So i one of those guilty if you want to point it. The people that have fostered ios ca truism. I certainly contributed to that. I'm a little conflicted about it. So what i do. These were trees. I drink people expect me to drink. I do drink the other reason. Is i think every time you take it. Maybe this is the more valerie's every time that you take or most times that you take it. Not every time you take watch is going to be a peak experience. I mean there's lots of tied swim. It's disappointed that you just get sick. But brew is bad or whatever but it has a lot to teach us. There's a lot to learn from iowa and even though you've taken it multiple times you still keep getting new insights or new. Experience seems worthwhile and so i keep taking it. Maybe i'm six skull. Maybe maybe other people have an easier. Way to simulate the lesson that say you got the message okay. I don't need to do this before. I've come close to that a couple of times. But i think ramdas was the was famously said or maybe it was. I'll watch. i'm not sure who said once you get the message. Hang up the phone right. And i sort of fake. I disagree with that. I think in other words the message just not the same every time. There is those standard message and this is a dynamic interaction with with the plans. That you're learning from indigenous. People talked about plant teachers. And you can get into the weeds about whether that's a valid concept. Are they really intelligent are they. Not the point is it doesn't really matter whether the plants the irs opens up some part of yourself that may present to something not the self but that knows things has information transfer. It doesn't really matter what i say. Is the information good. So every time you take it or whether you take it. There's really a bottomless well of things to still be thought about and simulated and so on. So i kind of don't believe in the hang up the phone approach. My approach would be i. Guess keep listening. Keep listening because a lot of flip you buy here will be stuff that heard before but that may be new things come along. That makes it worth it to stay engaged. And so that's how i relate to. It's not a waste of time to keep listening and you've also noted that they're not the only person a luis eduardo luna and others have also noted that these vitual consumers of iowa go often seem to remain exceptionally sharpened lucid into older age. And as i've thought about this and spoken with people who have a lot of experience like yourself. It seems like there are kind of different frames through which you can look at this experience. One is almost like the replacement of a malfunctioning hip. so you have a hip replacement. It's one and done. Maybe you need it again. Ten years later. But that's that's it. That's the hang up the phone approach and then there. There's this way of looking at it almost like going to the gym there. All these use cases historically that seem to at least offer other use cases like the use of iowa for hunting. Let's just say and it another one. That kind of occurred to me. As i talked to some of these folks who drink it and south america the some some people are drink four or five six times a week and it's almost like you could. Let's say live in new york and go to japan and study things in japan. And the hope that you can bring it back to new york and apply it in your life in new york but you could also go to japan and just get to know japan and the culture and had operate in that space. And i'd love to hear you speak to outside of the groups that you bring down where where you are expected to drink. How do you decide when to drink. Well usually the occasion presents itself. It's rare that i come to one of these places of not during or just when it seems appropriate is when i decided if i'm in a situation where i ask is being drunk than i would probably drink it and i tend not to go after it outside of ceremonial context even for wildlife. You'd say well. I don't even drink too in the states or canada just confided to south america. What i down there. But then i can't release stick to that because there are opportunities here now i go to a place called the saul tara in costa rica which is what a higher profile. I o oscar retreat side. I'm an adviser to solve tara of i. I liked the way they're doing it. I think they're very ethical. By larry approach to all this and so it's a matter of opportunity rather than anything else when it seems appropriate but to your what your looted tube before about how it can be in some ways i get a lot of sex can be big reset but then there is the maintenance part of the workweek did with the u. Dvd and the finding about the modulation of these serotonin transporters is really a valuable. Because what that speaks to is that regular use of iowa's get can actually repair some of these deficits in fact may be the old late drug or medicine that can do that. Peak experiences can be major reset moments so maximum this art of the therapeutic profile of a lot of psychedelic. Basically get you out of your default mode network. They'd get you out of your personal reference frame. They let you look at situations from a slight remove and you have insights as to your existential situation. Whatever it might be not all psychedelic experiences all iowa. Skin experiences are necessarily these peak experiences. You know and they don't have to be like can be beneficial to help you. Remember may be more accurate term some of the insights. You had from previous experiences at then. I think there's a physiological aspect to particularly with. I was like this modulation of the serotonin transporters sewer and neurogenesis. You mentioned that a lot of practitioners. I seemed to be unusually. Sharp and lucid may be advanced age. And i think that is a reflection of iowa. Guy that in general. I am kind of a skeptic about this whole microdosing fat. I have my doubts about it. But in the case of iowa i sent microdosing might make sense dot for the hallucinogenic psychedelic effects. But for the things the beta cargo planes do for your nervous system. You think of them. As of tonic and keeping the serotonin. Transporter levels elevated is probably a very good thing to get depression. Election stuff so against. It's like with the plants at chemistry. There's lots to be learned about the pharmacology of so i want to talk about the mccain academy of natural. We're gonna spend a good amount of time on that before we get there though. Since we're talking about some of the possible benefits of in this case. I want i would love to discuss. Perhaps the other side of the coin. And i know that the experiment does not relate to iowa specifically. But i'd like to end. You've describe this many many times. We don't have to spend a ton of airtime on it but the i'm going to read a paragraph actually two paragraphs and then we can use that as way of backing into it if that's okay. Here's the free lewd to the chapter. Introduces the experiment at lot. Shorter which again. We don't have to spend too much time on but just enough to kind of frame. This in some respects quote in some respects everything in life before we arrived at loretta was a prelude to the events that engulfed us there and everything afterwards has been a reflection of them terrence chronicle events in true hallucinations though. His account may seem unlikely bizarre. I believe it is largely accurate even if interpretations various to what it all meant. I can't vouch for every detail if only because this is the part. That i'm just going to highlight here. I was lost in hyperspace for much of the time or overwhelmed by psychosis again depending on interpretation anyone with an interest in the facts quotation marks of our story if the word even applies to regard terence's narrative as required reading and then we flash forward too much later in the book quote terrence. Mentions that on march twentieth. We all celebrated at one of bogota's finer restaurants and that the others agreed i was totally back quote unquote. They weren't aware that in my mind. I was in telepathic. Communications with all the waiters and that our dishes were being walked into the table by telekinesis rather than alarm them. I kept that to myself but except for a few episodes like that. I was doing all right. Okay there's lots of discuss here. I have personally experienced many upsides to psychedelic use including iowa. I've also been put into hyperspace as you put it on a few occasions or have become say destabilized wanna be a little less charitable and i have friends who have become destabilized f. doesn't some cases using another cases in some cases from lsd. We don't have to go to south america for this for weeks months at a time and i would love to just hear you perhaps expand a little bit on your personal experience and if you've had more experiences like this so that people can be aware that this is kind of one of the cards in the deck. It is one of the cards in the deck and people should be aware that this is a possibility. Sure wishes one reason why. It's important to have a strong ritual environment. Strong ritual context in a scarecrow practitioner. That cut those what. They're doing it because they can keep you on track and get you out into hyperspace and get you back. That's of the whole essence of shamanism. I have bought since locher pad experiences that have kept me three sheets to the wind. If you will for weeks of todd was not particularly pleasant. And you don't have the time. I was not concerned about getting back all those concepts. Canada rapper rated. You know after they did get back to actually did get bore restabilize an truly back in by body than ordinary reality on reflection i realized what a dangerous place this was to be in and that potentially it have gone the opposite way where i'd ever did reintegrate. What if the reasons that. I was able to reintegrate. I'd say close because because of the circumstances lectu era the process had to play out. There were people in our group who said this is totally out of control. We need to get these people out of here into psychiatric facility and undertreatment and terrace by both completely resistant that because we understood what was going on at least we thought we did. We are between occasion with each other. It was like no. You just need to let this play out. And and i think steph was the right thing. I mean it was you know. I have a a lecture. I give a talk. I give it was a psychotic break was shut body in Or was it an alien encounter. probably all three of the way but it was closer to shabani initiatied there but that i call myself shawmut. I'm not but it's the monica initiation is where you get to explore these dimensions and man you get back out you get back onto your mondays feet three d of ordinary reality and whatever that is i'm kind of wandering here but i think the point is because of the fact that it was able to play itself out for beginning to end it was actually a very lean experiences rather than being disorganized incoherent for the rest of my life may be some people say i ab so but it was actually a healing experience and i came back from its stronger and i feel like i even though i've continued to take psychedelics ever since on occasion i've never gone to that place again and i'm kinda grateful for that and i also feel that clear fairly stable person. Let me ask a couple of follow up questions because there are few things that struck me in the book in describing this and People should pick up the book and read all of it including this chronicle. Only the kindle version is available as you know which is perfect for me because tastes no more hard to come by so i can take notes and then export my notes which is my favorite thing in the world to do. So i have. I have my hundred eighty nine highlights and then i went through. I added three asterisks to the things. I wanted to follow up on. That's six page document. So i'm i'm fully nerd out when it comes to buy digestion. This book and please fill in. The details are fact. Check me on this but one of the things that struck me in this also seems to be a pattern across people who don't wanna characterize your experience this way but those people who might come on morton stay adrift for longer periods of time is there was a real density of consumption of salafi mushrooms when they're and my understanding is you guys had very little in terms of food maybe some some instant noodles and rice and you this just almost ridiculous abundance of mushrooms student these seibu cattle who were who were down there and just started spicing up meals and so on psychedelic mushrooms. So you had just a not only a high dose experience and there's a lot more of course but you had a really high density of continuous consumption. Is that accurate. Is that fair to say yes. Yes yes and so. We never really in this process. We never really did give ourselves a chance to get back to baseline as you will look at. What's what's going on here. Now that we're on stone. We were never a sto. Most of what happened with experimental lecturer. Would we actually perform the experimented. Lecturer was post-bashar. We were eating. The medieval of. That's right. that was two there. Were plenty of them in our system you so and then of course of night but we but we did experience but yeah. Mushrooms are tricky. Mushrooms are butler surly to be trusted in a certain way because they could lead you into these delusional spaces and as a teacher up plants but as a psychedelic teacher there somewhat less trustworthy wasco of you can get into these. Delusional spaces is something to be careful of it. Certainly not to be trifled with in a sense that you should. I think it's a good idea to respect. Mushrooms should be trifled with to follow up on that you mentioned letting things play out and how that was beneficial to you and your reintegration and perhaps if you had been subjected at that point to psychiatric intervention that that could've been problematic for you know this presents a dicey situation. I i suppose people might experience things in the sense that as a counterweight to that. I know one person for instance who who went to peru did a traditional data where he was consuming something called. td uncle and iowa on alternating days and he did this for quite a long period of time she'd seen in a number of cases. Now people who've had psychotic breaks after sort of continuous administration. Not say it's bad. I just think in here this is. This is a an observed kind of phenomenon and his family had to go down to south america. He thought he was god and convince him that if he were god the gift he could give would be getting on this thing. That was made up his mind called an airplane coming back to the united states. But i suppose there's a plausible argument to be made that he would have been sort of among the lost and maybe would not have come out by himself. So how do you think about when it is appropriate and again. We're not giving medical advice. Everybody needs to talk to their medical professionals. But would there not be times when a psychiatric intervention would be called for. How do you think about that. There would definitely be times when a psychiatric intervention are not saying that aired free time for me the fact that the experienced play itself out what was allowed to play out was this process of integration. Integration is really important as you know to psychedelic experience in this process of getting back to a baseline but with that change perspective with the benefit of having had this experience and changing perspective and so but sometimes if why setting setting is so important that when you take it in a inappropriate subsidy then there's the potential to come up against what we call the real world society. Its conventions in its expectations. I mean for example. I could share with you. The son of a very good friend. The by the minnesota about eighteen went with his. I don't know what his previous second experience have been not not great but a few low level mushroom experiences and so on but he decided with some of his friends to take a trip to new york city. The small town boys in the big city. You know just having a great time. They took allowed mushrooms and he sort of descended into this delusional world. His friend said well. We're going back to minnesota. And he said well. I'm staying here. What are you gonna do live on the streets. Yes and he had this whole thing. Well it didn't take very long for him to come up against. New york's finest as you might say because has acting pretty strange and he he got into tussle with the cops and punched one in the face. That was a big mistake. Next thing you know he was in jail being transferred to what is the huge psychiatric hospital. There bedlam something bedlam bellevue. Maybe bellevue bellevue. The only reason that he was able to resolve it at some ways was that at this point i was getting involved. I was actually in brazil as i retreat with all this going on but my friend called me and said this has happened. Is there anybody. New york's a psychiatrist. That could help him turned out. I said well. Yes a matter. Of fact steve. Ross might be able to help me and i call steve. This is all done by sky. There was you know. And i call steve with. I explained the situation that he said well as it turns out. I have admission privileges. Bellevue which i had no idea as he did but he went over there and was able to intervene on this young man's behalf and get him out of there but the guy never did recover he went back. He was on psychiatric meds and he was fairly functional. What he was doing that but he aided beat on psychiatric meds and it just it was a tragedy in many ways he never fully recovered. How old was he at this time he was about eighteen or nineteen. Did you have a family history of schizophrenia. Or anything like that potentially yes. There was schizophrenia. And his family was very strange family situation. His mother was devout evangelical christian and his father was Like a psychedelic cowboy. He grows mushrooms in the basement and Disodium watkins so and so it was a weird family situation and it was very bad. I didn't disclose too much. But of course of course i mean very very it was very sad out so this is a case of. It's hard to predict but apparently he had this family history of schizophrenia. In he was in the mushrooms triggered this so This is what you have to approach it from an informed place at hopefully with a practitioner whether a therapist or shaman or whatever who can hold that space and modulate the outcome to take on the streets of new york. Probably not a good idea you know from. I don't know for sure that it also is this brings to mind. Maybe it should be the four s.'s. Screening set setting and then support safety. You have a safety net in place before you get on the trapeze. Trust somebody buzzing. This was just approached by these young men in a very recreational way and they were out good time and it was good yeah powerful compounds. And i mean this applies sort of across the entire pharmacopoeia writing. Essays or is also can produce suicide light asian and all sorts of states. Us really really good idea to have professional assistance and supervision. With these things you know. Well let's talk about the mckenna academy of natural philosophy because you bring so many different perspectives and lenses and also toolkits to bear on these discussions. I would just love to hear about this new nonprofit and why you started the new nonprofit that mckenna academy of natural philosophy which is www dot mckenna dot academy academy is the suffix so of the website and i wanted to create a originally. The idea that was that we would start this academy and that we have a physical place in south america where we could do retreats which we have been doing all law and conference citizen different types of educational activities to explore. Natural philosophy of at a lot of it was the ideas that would be a modern mister school modeled after a looses or not modeled after but in that. Spirit a place where people could come together and share ideas and marvel at the cosmos and marbella existence and do what natural philosophers do. Natural philosophy be the precursor of science. What science used to be before it became so quantitative and reductionist natural philosophy is the root of science and it differs from science in the bits that there are other ways of knowing rather than they reductionist way of knowing that's valuable but that's not the whole trip this is the limitation of science sites can understand segments of reality but small in small pieces but it doesn't fit the whole picture together too well so the academy is basically i guess the modern at logged with the something estela a place where ideas and brilliant by contempt together and create dialects and course kovin change star business model radically because we couldn't do these conferences. And so we've had to pivot and galon live. And that's what we're going now just trying to create an online presence and continue our work. It's partly educational. It's partly research we've got a project going non doubt in peru right now. We're making a documentary about the current state of traditional medicine in the amazon arrived. The key house and a lot of this about this botanist. That i've worked with for forty years there who is curator of the barium at the university in tito's and he's one of these people about which it said for the medicine. Man die is though a librarian berg down. But he's not a medicine. Mavin necessities not a healer but he has tremendous knowledge of the amazonian flora at the medicine properties of these plants and he knows many many healers in the community. So we're trying to document his knowledge because even though scientists heat right thanks doubt. So we're trying to through videography make documentary about what he knows. And then hopefully that will attract funding. We have big plans for this project. We call it the knowledge preservation project the first aspect of this to make it short relatively short documentary about this gentleman whose name is water res at an to develop over the long term. What we wanna do is work with the beria there and digitize the barium and try to make it into a world class research for plant research of all kites that would be centered at university so this is all described in our website. And that's probably our biggest project right now for which were seeking support support and so people can find that mckenna dont academy encourage everybody to check it out of the five key departments. Tell me if this requires. Updating you have therapeutics education retreats are indeed and media is that still an accurate reflection or has that been modified. that's an accurate reflection but then some of those things are kind of dormant at the moment like the retreats dudek ovid dudakovic. I mean eventually. We want to get back to that. Media of asli is an even bigger part of the internet. Is our teaching platform now. Therapeutics again not so much because they're usually associated with the retreats education for sure are d this project that we're doing with this with this gentleman the the university there is in the category of our a d and the mckenna kademi is is public charity. Is that right that in the sense that its tax exempt as a five three areas. It's a five one. C three tax exempt organization chartered in the united states. Even though i don't live in the united states anymore. I live close enough. I live in canada but the the academy is incorporated in california's our fiber one c. Three and who is involved with the academy beside yourself. Are there any particular people who are acting as as advisors were research collaborators. Yeah we have a number of people that are associated with a the woman who is the executive director or christina. Chhaya lives in peru anti worked with her previously on organized retreats so she continues to work with me. We have very good. People are bored. One gentleman with lots of experience in the financial industry another woman as a corporate lawyer. So we have that expertise and then we have just a fantastic bunch of advisers one of who is alexandra Knew who you know. Very well and way davis as visor hall stab attacks is advisor so we have a number of high profile people. Strong strong roster. Yeah definitely what types of projects would be on the short list of things you would like to engage with and explore assuming that you have the resources to do so well. A couple of things are on the plate. So we've got this kind of long term project this knowledge preservation project which were beginning to brand as bio noces and that is the focus right now is on the documentation part but then the next phase which will take much longer and cost a lot. More money is to focus on the burial there which one releases the curator of this or beria. So that's a long term project we to do in the short term. We're working on developing than if the lot nate course in collaboration with the organization for tropical studies in costa rica. And we're gonna be offering that course this fall and one of the people that is working on now is a guy named michael co. Who is this. i was as committee. He got his degree at the university of hawaii. Ma study cultural keystone species in the amazon prokop which is basically iowa. He is going to be the main instructor in this course which will be online and then we are planning to do. A virtual symposium probably august on the stove dates dad. We're gonna do that. Because one of terence's books the food of the gods is being reprinted again actually donate online event with michael pollen and the publisher were doing this. Essentially a podcast together. But they were gonna do a one day symposium on the stoned ape theory of have some interesting speakers. I wrote a new foreword for it which i'll be happy to share with you and we're going to have this symposium because we're going to revisit this whole idea which actually based on new discoveries is more plausible than it was when terence i proposed it and that's look forward about in part is that we didn't know about the way that these psychedelics can create these hyper connected. Neural architectures of neurogenesis enhancing the connectivity in the neo cortex and that sort of thing and that was not known at the time terrence wrote the book what was also not known was anything about epa genetics and epigenetics provides an evolutionary mechanism by which these changes in neural architecture. Could be propagated through generations. If you look at the environment that we now know from paleo climatic data that sort of thing. Northern africa was a wet plates couple of million years ago and there was seasonal rainfall. They were cattle there. There were the ancestors of the modern cattle and there were hominids so th the three variables in this environment did exist. What was the long term impact of that. Well you know. The the food of the gods basically led to the origin of consciousness of imagination. Yeah i read a draft of your intro or maybe the final version. I don't know but it's really a great exploration review of more recent findings but also great exploration of language images imagination consciousness and then also to support this overlap of hominids with ungulates and copro phillix almost inevitable that our ancestors would have been munching these and found them very very interesting. And compelling on so so yeah. I just think it's worth looking at this in. The light of some new discoveries are these can never be proven which actually makes them more fun because you you can make these wild claims. Nobody can prove you know so. That's where we're at with that. But i think knowing what we know about d'oro plasticity was the word i was looking for. That psychedelics fostered neuro plasticity. Epigenetics provides a mechanism for inheritance. And so i think that changes the speculation from plausible to maybe more than lectures. This stuff is endlessly fascinating to me. And i want to return to the mckenna academy of natural philosophy because you you mentioned something that is one underscore and that is to do these things that is to further the knowledge preservation project by onassis the bonnie chorus and many other things. You are currently looking for support if you don't mind saying if you can. Is there a specific number that you have determined will allow you to pursue these projects with the resources required to really gain some degree of traction with with them. Yes i mean we have. We have a rough idea where undertaking a capital campaign now fundraising temp. People should feel free to visit the website and donate if it grabs you. But we're looking to race about six hundred thousand by the end of the year and this is to support various projects like this and then the or berry of digitization project which is much more ambitious and much more expensive at. It's a stretch over a couple of years. What we're dealing with is essentially at her beria. Which is a show a scientific jim but a third world developing country university so there are a lot of deficiencies for example at this herbarium. There's like a hundred thousand specimens but at least hassle. Sam aren't even mounted. So we walked to get above funds to complete the barium essentially a van lake into various online database resources for natural products. Pharmacology genucel make sense just create open access resource for anyone with an interest in amazonean. Flora you know it doesn't have to be medicinal are psychedelic or whatever the interest. Amax probably gonna be tuta. Three-year project class somewhere north of a million dollars but it will be well worthwhile. It's just to give. I'm a big believer in collections and collecting knowledge. That's the dollar age. Collections are important. To like every plant that you can attach a piece of information to in hanson's the value of the plant you know provides a reason not to drag it into extinction important. Yeah once they're gone they're gone. You've mentioned the phrase in a number of other interviews. I listened to that. I'd love for you to define because i don't know the phrase i would like to the importance of voucher specimens. I think that was the wording specimen is a voucher specimen voucher specimens. Mrs what shelties used to rave about all the time he would go on about elite dental this chemical work on say for example. There is a whole history of chemical investigations. Going back to the late nineteenth century. People look to the alkaloids. The composition of bevis terry office voucher specimen the simulator. Barium specimen that you make at if you're collecting plants in your dragging them back into the lab to tear them apart chemically and see what's in there you have to be able to reference a reference specimens sexually so keep one that you don't tear apart in other words collect pieces of the plant making herbarium specimen of the plant makes several in different or barrier around the world but at least the burial of the host country and then you can always go back to that because taxonomic love to question each other and so if you have a reference specified you could always go back look at the actual collection. Somebody said well. This is a copy you know. The mckenna collected didn't nineteen eighty one but five years later some other. This may come through there and say well. That wasn't barrister. Absence copy that was mysterious luxury elected. You know these people are fools. They did though this is this is what do all they fight with. Each other point is that the chemical investigations are documented by in our barium specimen that you can always go back check and now of course they is. Dna profiling than this sort of thing. Just another tool in the arsenal of but if you look at the chemical history of iowa if you look at who did. What when they were sorting out. What the alkaloids were the first four or five investigators. I can send you a key note about this which you can look at it. You're leaser but the first four or five groups investigators. They didn't take vouchers so their work is not worthless but in some ways degraded 'cause they're not vouchers to document what they actually worked on. That's the thing with voucher specimens. And i mean just to put some more connective tissue around. Let's just say the the amazon and the flora of the amazon. How many species would you say. We currently estimate plant species to exist in the amazon in the amazon. Yeah about eighty somebody thousands in hell. Hell many have we. And this is maybe a alluded where but properly studied in examined in any way but percentage around ten percent if that of course worldwide they're probably they're always revised number but the total number of plant species. Higher plant species in the world is around two hundred forty two hundred forty two two hundred sixty thousand and i mean. It's just such a wealth of biological not just knowledge but practicality i mean you have such potential medicinal application will. There's there's great. Discovery will great potential for drug discovery. Because we have a look at about ten percent and those are the number that you know maybe took a superficial look at the number that have actually been thoroughly investigated is closer to one percent so there's tremendous potential to find new compounds in fact that's another project that the mckenna academy is working on or collaborating with a group called woven science a group of entrepreneurs and scientists have other types and were in process of developing a bio prospecting platform. That will be affiliated with the university. And in a dose. And then you get into basically a search for new molecules screen them against a whole variety of possible targets so this is another log her project that will probably rub into the millions. If it's properly done the mckenna academy is kind of peripheral to where we're involved but we're not a word on prophet so we don't have to make profits but it's gonna be a very interesting project and it goes into these ethical areas about who owns this knowledge biopiracy biopiracy so we have to be very sensitive to all those issues so that we can say you know. We're bio prospectors that bile pirates we want to share the the welts. If there's a return on the investment are committed to heaven indigenous people have a big stake. Math have place at the table and a big say in how this goes forward because really they've been the stewards of this knowledge for millennia. Really at it's always been the taste. The big a big science comes in. They take what they want they say thanks very much. See you later. Develop billion dollar drugs off these things and that's not right. The indigenous peoples should get some recognition for being the stewards of this knowledge. Sucks the whole thing. This is what's dangerous. The habitats are impacted. The community structures are impacted and the traditional knowledge. And one of the first things to go is the age of plants will. Then there are million things that i can ask you. I didn't even get through ten percent of the show. We have space for many more conversations. I want to say a few things one. Is that for those people listening. Also want to sort of extend their exploration these topics i think mark plotkin has also done a lot of grey work with the amazon conservation team in his thinking about enabling and empowering those groups to participate in in prospecting and the preservation of of knowledge. He's done all he and his and his wife and other people in the organization of done really great work. And i know you guys are friends and go back really really far and i also want to ask just to just to confirm for people listening. Donations to the mechanic of natural philosophy are tax deductible since they are donations to five hundred eighty three so i the target of six hundred k. I will commit here to kicking off with fifty k. Of my own. And i want to encourage people listening to consider doing the same because at fifty k. Pop w twelve people could be done very easily. this is a early stage that albeit in a non-profit side. I don't expect of course. I can't get any returns from this financial way. But i i really view you as a pioneer who also a high degree of biochemical and sort of botanical fluency. Who can participate in reconciling and critically examined multiple spheres and you have a history of producing really fascinating and i think important work and definitely encourage people to also grab the ethnic pharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs. They're in a boxed set. If you just searched dennis mckenna on amazon at pops right up and you can purchase it on amazon prime. It's a beautiful collection and we'll give you a taste of some of what dennis's curated and certainly can find his writing everywhere else but i will commit to fifty carrying. I encourage people to not investment advice. It's a nonprofit. But i really view this as as worthwhile. And you're coming into this. Also as someone who has proven a decades long dedication to examining and studying various facets of psychedelics and beyond not just limited to that much like i think shelties was also very very well versed in orchids and other things. One of the world's experts on orchids. Yeah rolling griffiths. Also a lot of people don't realize even though is known for psychedelic. Work with sill sivan at hopkins one of the foremost experts in caffeine and kathy metabolism. And so you. You've such a broad spectrum of expertise. I feel like this is worth supporting. So i commit to fifty k. And encourage people to take a close. Look now it's incredibly generous of you. Tim thank you. Thank you for that and thank you for encouraging your listeners to contribute if we get a few more donations in that range we won't have to do february campaign. Our goals will be pretty much and we wanna be responsible stewards of these funds. You know and in that regard we're also open to people who they want to support us financially but we want more than just finances. We wanted fleiss. We want wise people. We're creating a we. Call it the symbiotic circle but a circle of advisors with connections to other supporters but also ideas like people like yourself for example. I don't know if you're interested in would be joining are symbiotic circle but You're certainly welcome to thank the sound like the sound of it to be turtle. Sounds like good thanks. I don't know how much time you have to go through all this stuff. But i didn't send you the one thing in the world. I seem to have time for. Is this kind of stuff. I'll send you more details about that. That capital campaign of some of the other projects that we have and yet this has just been amazing. Week killed Two and a half hours. Yeah it was easy. This is easy to do. And we have plenty. I've have enough questions we could. We could do around too in short order. Be extremely easy to do. I would encourage people to check out mckenna dot academy. I've a few thoughts on things that could be added to the website that might be helpful for listener. So we'll chat about that separately. I think it'd be easy to do. Also but check out the kennedy academy. Certainly you can find dennis on social. Where are you most active. If you're active at all denison social media well. I have people handling most of the social media for the academy. So i'm not on there. I'm on facebook and twitter but not not much at all Get more done. That look helps. It helps but i would love to have more conversations with you. Tim online and offline. Enjoy that this is just. This is just been an incredible era. Fantastic interviewer. i've. I've not the i told me dennis a and informed really do your homework. So that's that's a huge thing. I think it could be gone better. I've yet could talk all afternoon easily and i. I'm only thirty. Forty percent of the way through volume two of esp and this is one of those fields. It's true with a lot of fields. Where the deeper you go the more fascinating and the stranger at all becomes and it's and you spoke to at the very very well. Maybe it wasn't the beginning. Maybe it was in the middle about some fears around. This is related to some of these in credit churches of science removing the mystery or the wonder and it makes me think of shirley. You must be joking. Mr feinman by richard firemen famed physicists. Who later in life developed a deep friendship with a painter. The painter had the same concern about richard through his scientific lens. Removing the wonder of say the beauty of a flower ann richards perspective was actually got it completely backwards because i have the aesthetic appreciation. I am acutely aware of how much i don't know. And i can also be dazzled by the scientific findings when you go down to the microscopic level and look at this beautiful thing in front of us. And i'm paraphrasing. Of course but i find it so reassuring in your representation of these multiple facets that these are not mutually exclusive silos. Even though there's so much goddamn infighting in the psychedelic space. It's kind of comically tragic. Were huge boats. You know we do. I am totally on the same page with you about this. Too by buying science crop rarely pursued only deepens the mystery yeah that is. It doesn't take the mystery awake. It shows you. How mystery exists profoundly the every level. That's the whole idea of mckenna academy be the mystery school the mysteries the mystery of existence which is which is bottomless. It's endless and sciences. One of those tools. We have not to take the mystery way but to make us appreciate what the mystery is. And thinking of something. But i had a couple of stages. Tim's going to ask you. What would you put on a billboard. You know we did get to that. But i was thinking about that what i would put on the billboard. This what i get from i- awasa at other psychedelics. Which is remember how little you know. Remember how little you know and science often forgets. How little notes. Yes so it can be arrogant at times. But you can't be true scientist without be the mystic guy. Thank you know. I mean that's the thing the deeper you prob- the more complex. The more beautiful the more intelligent all seems he and this is why. I think we have to appreciate science but understand. It's not the whole story. It's not the end of the story. Just a useful tool. Yeah we're all holding different. Parts of the elephant like that parable dennis. This has been wonderful. I will follow up on the donation. Which for clarity. i'll. I'll make through my foundation. Which is explicitly for this type of thing could not be more excited as there. Anything else you'd like to mention to listeners. Any closing comments anything like that any thing. You'd like to direct their attention to before we wrap up for this round one. No i think we've covered it pretty well. I would say look at the website. We have resources there. We have a vance which have been done in the past that you can still registered. They're all recorded. Think of this place for resources and so but also give touch. We wanna be open. We want people to bring their talent and their wisdom and everything else to the table and their money. But that's not necessarily a surly the most valuable saving money is just the grease that lets the thing yet. So there is that we're trying to bring together brilliant people and propagate this oral this idea that were out of sync with nature essentially at that. Psychedelics is one way to help us realize that. Help us get re aligned with nature. Because that's the big challenge that we face right now and you know and then that could spin off into another three hours of discussion. We won't go into that. Yeah for sure and For those people. Who want a cliffhanger or teaser. I wanted to focus on a lot of the science and the biographical stuff in this conversation. But we didn't even get into some of the really strange and weird stuff which we might next time mother. That's another one. Yeah so. I'll leave that as teaser for around two. Well thank you so much dennis. This has been wonderful and so much fun for me. I've been really looking forward to this and have done so much reading. And i can't wait to do more. I'm looking forward to it and to everybody listening as always we will have links to everything in the show notes that we've discussed of course we mentioned mckenna dot academy that is sort of the beacon the the main call to action here. Please check it out and until next time. Be safe and thanks for tuning in. Hey guys this is tim again. Just a few more things before you take off number one. This is five bullet friday. Do you want to get a short email from me. Would you enjoy getting short email from me. Every friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend and five of friday's a very short email where i share the coolest things. I've found that have been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that have discovered it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as i do. 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dennis mckenna Tim iowa amazon botanical museum varela harvard sanford siegel berkeley wasco tim ferriss kuei hefty research institute center for spirituality and he mckenna academy of natural phi dennis john j mckenna academy university of british columbia
Franoise Bourzat on Consciousness Medicine, the Art of Guiding Psychedelic Journeys,Finding Forgiveness, Salvia Divinorum, the Power of Chaos Music, and Inviting Sacredness (#519)

The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

2:10:09 hr | 4 months ago

Franoise Bourzat on Consciousness Medicine, the Art of Guiding Psychedelic Journeys,Finding Forgiveness, Salvia Divinorum, the Power of Chaos Music, and Inviting Sacredness (#519)

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My guest today is francois's bores. Aw be oh. You are zee on twitter. At f- borzov two thousand and nineteen. She has been bridging. The divide between western psychology and indigenous wisdom and collaboration with healers in mexico for the past thirty years. She's a co founder of the center for consciousness medicine which trains people to become guys in a holistic method of psychedelic assisted therapy. She's also the co author of consciousness. Medicine which i have just about ten feet away from me. Published by north atlantic books. France was served on the advisory board for the oregon prop one nine initiative and is currently helping design the training for the future facilitators of mushroom experiences. She's also collaborating with the pacific neuroscience institute in santa monica california in an fda approved research study on suicide assisted. Therapy for covid related grief. She leads mushroom ceremonies and retreats in jamaica for briefed parents. That is a topic we will explore certainly early. In this conversation. She has a master of arts in somatic psychology and is trained in the komi method. Francois's has taught at s in san francisco and she lectures at other. Academic institutions including yale stanford and. Ucsf she wants online courses and contributes to advisory boards at organizationto offering value. Line trainings on the topics of mushroom ceremonies. You can find her online francois's boorda dot com and you can find the center for consciousness medicine at center for foresee m. dot com on instagram at francois's underscore. Aw twitter once again at f two thousand. Nineteen one quick preface note francois's sheer several stories about people participating in her retreats and she wants to assure listeners that these people have given her consent to speak about them and their experiences. France was so nice to see you. Welcome to the show. Thank you tim. Thank you for having me. There are a million in one place as we could start you and i spent some time together. So it's going to be an embarrassment of riches with the number of things we can explore. We run out of time before topics so let us start with something mentioned in the bio and that is the bereaved parents in jamaica. Can you describe what that means. And what the experience was like how it came to be so in my work and support of people in various challenging situations of life. The pain that i've encountered that is most tragic. Is the loss of a child. Parents are really struggling sometimes. Quite crippled emotionally debilitated. Really and burden by this great for many years and in my Opportunity to work with some parents. I observed that mushroom experiences. Were very very healing and transforming even alleviating this heaviness and so helping them recover their love of life of authority in creativity so i decided to with the collaboration of other people. In the field of palliative. Care and grief counseling to organize retreats in jamaica cow. Where the practice of mushroom ceremony is legal and to offer these retreats to parents in bereavement. It took some time to organize this retreats and the first one and we are continuing to organize them now and offer them. Articles being written an article is gonna come up in the atlantic. I think next month a lot of very interesting reception of this offering and the retreat was an amazing exploration for the parents to be together support and to be supported by a team of psychologists and grief expert and me mushrooms specialists in are exploring and grieving and letting go of this very challenging burden and the results were amazing. The parents are really transformed looking at the way. Their child is now with them of the way they're going to live the whether a child spirit would like them to continue being alive and not staying in quote unquote dead zone with them and also fabulous and very rich invitation for the parents to really look at their own life their in childhood they on parenting of this child as well as their experience being parented. It's a reach. Expiration would save and beyond the topic of grief for their child very fascinating process. And we really excited to offer that. Then we're going to be presenting the palliative care conference in two thousand twenty. Two is my colleagues from los angeles and from jamaica as well. We'll you've traveled a an eclectic and winding path to then find yourself in jamaica so if that is one book end there are many ways we could start this story. But let's go back in time and visit in earlier experience in north highland. That seems to have been formative in many ways. Could you please tell the story that. I'm alluding to so i was twenty three years old and i had traveled in south america for nine months when i was nine hundred and twenty i had a sense of the world than what it was like to be in foreign countries and different environments and cultures people in language and style by decided to go by myself in thailand and i was travelling in northern thailand. I wasn't a town of sukhothai tie which used to be an old capital mentioned capital. Before it became bangkok it was sokaia. Tie aunt visiting beautiful temples that were outside of the modern city and i was walking down this path and i met this man from india was a civil engineer and he was himself visiting those stamp polls and we decided to visit together this temples and he was sharing with me is different spiritual aspects of this culture of buddhism that i was very unfamiliar with and we had lunch together and we talked wonderful gentlemen and then we decided to go on a separate path outside of the compound of this ruins to see a more remote temple so we walking down the trail wide path and behind us were to type people and as we were talking i felt someone tapping me on the shoulder we both turned around and we were shot sort of immediately just point blank you know two feet away we got shot my friend ramesh was shot in the forehead and i was shot somewhere in my body which i didn't know where and i collapsed on the ground i saw him collapse and it was pretty nali pretty gory and i fell on the side of the path and remained there. The bendit came to me and tore. My watchin- took my bag from a shoulder ran away. Left me there for dead. I was holding my belly. I was ensure where was shot truly. And when i looked at my hand i realized there was nothing there but then i saw the blood and my leg so i would have been shot in my thigh. I can't even remember. being ruined. pain was sitting in a total state of shock. My body was in shock. And i looked and i saw my friend almost dead barely breathing and the site. I don't want to describe the site around his body. But that was pretty terrible. And i walked and i started to walk away to find help for him which was of course. Totally unnecessary was nothing to do for him. But i heard some breathing. And i walked away and a farmer came on a bicycle and signal to me. Sit on his on a backup his bicycle and it took me to the road where he flagged a pickup truck. That pick me up took me to the nearest police station and then to the hospital. And then they went to can't ramesh and brought him to the surgery room where how is being operated on. Look at the pull it out of my leg. And he died there next to me in the hospital. Although he was really branded but somehow he was still his last. Breath was standing next to me. So then i was rod to the police station and i to make a position. You know like a report. And then i was brought to the doctor into the stitcher. Wiscon- translate and i was brought back to my hotel and they had a bodyguard on my hotel to protect me from the bendit and i had to be guarded at all time. If i was transported from my hotel to the police station out to the doctor i had to be lying down in the back of a car with a blanket on me so the bended would not recognize me and kill me because they wouldn't want to be alive still and then about day and a half to fire or to identify. That's right to identify and the important piece of this episode. Actually was when a couple of days later. I was still in sokoto doing all this paperwork and talking to the ambassador in bangkok for me to have a new passport and some to get support. The police officer told me that they had found some documents. And i was to be on the lineup and identify one of the bendit. And so i went to the police station and it was not a one way mirror. They were all there in front of us in front of me. Police chief in my and i was looking at all just different people and i saw the man who shot ramesh. I didn't see mine my salient. But i saw and i looked at him. You know and at this moment. I felt i could send him to be dead or i can forgive him. In this moment. I had almost like a spiritual a moment where i felt. It was not for me to decide of his life or death and so i looked in the eyes and i said i don't recognize and i was let go and i guess he was let go. It's haunted me for many years. Should i f recognized him. Or should i have been in this forgiveness place. It is a different level of relationship with him. That's the story and the gift of the story of course is beside this moment where i was really feeling the deep love of humanity of this man and his blindness or his disregard for human life. I was so determined to have a life. And i didn't really know what i was doing was twenty three. I was kind of drifting. Didn't have any goal. And i seized my life that moment. I said this is so fragile. It's so fleeting. Resources delicate. And i decided to do something with my life and i saved money and most to california and that was the beginning of a entire new chapter for me. There's so many different departure points from that story and united spoken about this story before because i also felt very conflicted hearing the end of that story and the story i told myself was. This is someone who's probably done what they did. More than once they will probably do it again. And i was quite upset by that outcome and so i know we've spoken about it and it's a it's easy. I suppose to paint black and white pictures. But i'm not saying necessarily in this case for me from my perspective but a lot of life is in the gray and learning to navigate that can be very challenging and i think the experience of that gray is sometimes in the aftermath of events and i would love to hear after that experience after witnessing someone shot in the face right beside you who then dies beside you. What helped you to process that experience. Was there anything that stood out that helped you to in some way process that experience. If that's even a good question it is a good question. I think there are many layers many times of process. I think the first thing that was really quite touching is the where the top people surrounded me care with. Beauty was love with attention with support. It was really really touching. They'll get as to whole party for me with dancers and feast and flowers everywhere at the house of the police. Chief i mean it was very very touching how they are sorry and was mostly almost like they apologized for the people of their nation for what had occurred to me then there was another layer Which was very personal to me. Is that because of my reporting of ramesh death to the engine ambassador. And what i knew of him. They were able to look at his family in india in poona and they were able to bring his body back to poona for commission and the rights and his family wrote to me to thank me and to invite me to india and to count me in their family and me. What was the last day of their family member of ramesh so that to me was very helpful and loving and touching process to tell the story in and reminisce of that day and the beauty of that man and a consideration of his spiritual staff all the details. Were helping me away. Be with him once again and feel loved by people who said we are feeling lucky that you are alive even though our brother and and saen died i mean that was extremely helpful really to be surrounded by love is really what has guided me in my work as a guide the power of this presence and his care in the worst moment possible of life just like the bereaved parents. You know we can have all kinds of techniques. We can our counter tools and theories but ultimately this care is really key when it came to the united states. After a couple of years there. I met some people who are involved in medicine. Work psychedelics. so they were involved in doing. Md a man doing mushrooms and doing therapy was just context of a junked processes with medicines was the different compounds. I entered that space with a lot of fear. I knew it was sitting in me. Even though it was a few years past that may be four years past but you know it was sitting in me this fear of the other this contraction in my body from feeling the emotions that were associated with my fear my grief where to put the spiritual underpinning that i had had you know it was a lot of material that was sitting and not being able to be processed and when i studied to do. Md may studied to mushrooms. I realized how my physical and energetic bodies were being relaxed where being brought out of contract to place to ease into whatever feelings and emotion and sensation. Whatever i had to go through was being processed with being happening being reflected with being digested essentially almost like i had not digested anything and now was being digesting all this slowly over some time of course. But that's really the key for me. Why i've been on. This path is because i know the power of this healing on a very very personal level. Would you mind sharing some more details of your personal healing rates to this wide spectrum of destruction grief and also then inspiration and transition. Was it a particular tool like md. May that helped you and for those who've listened to some of my podcasts. Were looked at the phase. Three trials involving. Mda they'll know that md macy's psychotherapy is associated with treating ptsd or complex ptsd. Was it the mushrooms. Was it a combination of those things over time for those who may not have any firsthand experience with these things. What is the experience of healing alike. And how would you describe it. The experience of healing was empty. And may on this especially this specific episode was one of being able to be with all the details that i had never wanted to revisit the details of the moment where i felt a hand on my shoulder and like i knew something was gonna happen or the moment shot happen between the shot and the bullet in my leg. I was able to slow down the entire process to a crawl to a two very very slow to really see the many different layers of time and space that were happening. So i remember being on 'em may and having very clear detailed microscopic inventory of every fraction of a second. That happened between the shot and me. Being shot was incredibly complex reach. You know like. I remembered thinking. Oh i'm getting shot here. What a dumb way to die. Oh i'm being shot here. My mother will never know how i disappeared. Oh i'm getting shot here. I have letters in my that are distant to my sisters. They will never read them. I mean things like this. That i was thinking of the moment. You would think well really you think of that. You don't think of saving your life but like the all all different layers of my thoughts where present this fraction of a second and then when the bullet my leg in my empty amid journey i felt. That's it i'm don. This is where it ends. What's my life. i'm too young. i shouldn't die now. it's wrong. I did was it is wow. I was a ride. Okay this is the end okay. Like the acceptance of of death almost the acceptance of what is about to happen and all these different minutia of my thoughts that i had not been able to identify credit inventory of where coming back one by one and for me that was to healing or when i kneeled when i knelt next to promise body and what i was seeing and what was going on from me. What do i do here. I get help to really need help well. I don't think he needs help anymore. But he's breathing. My god what a som- i mean. How do i what do i do with this okay. But i'm going to get help now. Because i'm not dead is dying but all this different decision making. We're coming back to me. In the journey. I was tracking my process piece by piece and that for me created the healing the revisiting all these details that i have totally blanked trauma and freezing and overwhelm and adrenaline rushing and everything in my physical body. I'd not been able to process it. But now i was. It was time time dedicated to three seconds for me. That was the big healing moment to feel like ours alive and i was able to track all this again in mushroom journey journeys because i did. I visited this story a few times in journeys it was the sense of it was my destiny to have this experience. I was meant to have it. I was accepting that. It was part of my knowledge part of my building block part of my resilience hot. My survival part of my spiritual wisdom. Like i said earlier for me twenty intense spiritual moment of some understanding not cognitively per spiritually my place in the world so it was all this other dimension of accepting and saying yes to that end not fighting it and not complaining and never feeling like a victim of that moment at that point in time did you have a teacher or support for instance after the md may experience or even during the md may experience. Did you have some one who was acting as a support were guide for you or was it really. A self contained healing experience where the healing was felt in that re experiencing rican contextualisation. And that is where the work was done. I had a guide. thank god. I had a guide who cared for me. Who loved me. Who had heard who has knowing me who was knowing mice transmit might weaknesses my use my potential. My person hood and he was very skilled very artistically poised to know what to do when to do what to say what not to say how to wait to prompt how to support how to coax a little bit. I had a guide. I had a very talented guy to help me in this first steps of this reorientation. Yeah could you give any examples of how that skill manifested things that this guy. It did or didn't do that in your mind clearly separates them from a novice or less competent guide. You could also speak about it. Holistically limited to that experience but just overall well these men in particular We're talking about popular sanchez. This man in particular had the experience of being a tribal men from the four corners reservation of hope pueblo. Man as well as mexican he was also a man who had been. And i think it's important to mention that because that's really part of what he was holding as a wisdom and as a a human being in this culture he had been sent as a soldier in the second world war as photographer of us. Army to documentary barechested the concentration camp. He had seen horror had seen the worst of human condition of the result of human disconnect and cruelty and he had inside him a wisdom patience for the human condition human predicament. The human wounding and how it reflects and the human winding in how it is felt he had sinned that yet been close to it. He had had to take pictures. Which by the way nobody in this community ever saw yet boxes and nobody could have access to those boxes of pictures. He would not at all at anybody see them. I think that his humanity and his breath of what he had seen was really equipping him to be capable of holding a lot. He had a lot of bandwidth of what he was capable of holding a lot of compassion. A lot of love a lot of patients like i said and a lot of artistic tool to help people move out of this took place because he believed in rituals and you believe in artistic expression. He was a painter he painted. It was a photographer. Any believed in nature and he believed in the power of rituals on the earth and he believed in other things beside verbal psychotherapy and processing and he believed in august different resources that create a holistic framework for healing. An i learned a lot from him. Not just by listening to him of watching him work. By receiving this. I saw the value and the efficiency of such model. He would send me. He said well. You're going to do a journey on saturday. I wanted to go on the land. And i want you to talk to that tree and i want you to bring a piece of branch from that tree and put it on the altar. A wanted to bring your tree of prayer into your ceremony room. Or i wanted to do some movement to pray to the earth and to give back to the earth your pain because the earth can take it. He would have this narrative. When do you hear that in psychotherapy you know never would have this advise an indication that was my prescription. You know goal paint the sky you know or go home and lay down and listen to that music and that drumming or make that rich roller you know he had all different ways that now i call it integration practices and my book you know. This is all tools and techniques and resources to actually embody the thing. You're going through just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by lincoln jobs. Small business owners have always shown an incredible ability to adapt and innovate. This past year has certainly highlighted many examples. Now another way you can adapt and innovate in two thousand. Twenty one by finding the right people to help you grow your business. Lincoln makes it possible for you to do exactly that. Get started posting your job for free to reach lincoln's network of more than seven hundred and forty million professionals philip targeted screening questions to get your role in front of the most qualified candidates with the experience skills and motivation. You're looking for then with simple. Filtering and management tools. You can easily review rate and home in on your top candidates. Lincoln jobs can help you find the right person to help you. Grow your business in your first job. Post is free. So just visit lincoln dot com slash tim to learn more again. That's lincoln dot com slash. Tim to post your first job for free. Terms and conditions do apply. You have a quote. I found it's pretty funny doing homework on you. i just. It's always funny doing homework on people. I know for interviews. Because i find these things. I'm like. wow that's really smart and one quote. I quite enjoyed a. You can tell me if this is a misquote. I hope it's accurate. It's from one of the maps bulletins but it says quote it is an insult to the potency of this inner work to not take the time to integrate what has been revealed and i think we will spend a fair amount of time discussing what integrate and integration means in the importance of that. But i don't wanna leave pablo just yet because i think it is very natural for humans to want to find the one way the one approach the one style that is the best style and to some people listening if they have any firsthand experience with facilitators they may in their mind think of journey music and they think of something very unobtrusive spa music. Maybe there are some whale sounds. Maybe there's some flute maybe. There is some type of babbling brook. And a zen garden but there are many different tools in the tool kit and many different styles. Many of which can be really really highly effective. Could you please define and describe the experience of chaos music and chaos music sections. My favorite topic got got me going now. Well i have a reputation you know. I have a reputation around us. Everybody else that's wrong with you. But so pablo used to play. Chaos music and the cast. Music is a section in the ark of the playlist. Sort of speak that is designed to create disturbance to create disintegration of ego or to create the edge of resistance or to bring people at the edge of a fear place or a anger place or adaptation. Whatever it's designed to raise hale in people's mind and body and psyche and i adore that piece. I adored that piece. It was for me meeting my kale. I guess we all have a piece of everything in us right. We are after all holding and that includes a piece of chaos. And i just could never kind of reconcile where is it. What does it look like. How does it feel to be with my inner chaos right or minor mess or minor craziness something and so because you know having been shot you know you. You want everything to be very much in order and very much control. God forbid something would happen. So there's a lot of controlling contracted that happened. So when the chaos studied to happen and i felt safe enough to lean into it would literally lean into the big gigantic blue foam padded speakers. Fabio had that will like about three feet tall and two feet wide this old fashioned speakers in the eighty and i would go and heck the speaker and be like merging into the chaos like putting my head into the speaker just about pushing my head into the form so it could be more into it and i just wafted. My body felt relaxed. It felt met. I was like oh yes i love this and i know people said you're crazy. Nobody nobody likes that stuff. And it's what tried tried to lean into it because you'll see how it it challenges a border of you that has to let go and it's just kind of kind of has you it kind of has you roll you over. I mean some people really have different opinion about that. I personally love it. I think we the listeners to paint a detailed audio picture maybe an example of what we're talking about and so to give you an idea what i'll tell you what we're not talking about. We're not talking about some very calm consistent drumming necessarily but in fact there are examples. I'm blanking on the woman's name. But i have heard subtracts. I would love for you to tell people who this is because they can look it up and get a sampling of this woman. Just screaming bloody murder. I love her. So what do you do. You recall the name of this woman. Because i i was. I was impressed by just how how intense these tracks are. Her name is diamond. Data us g. l. l. s. And she screams. I went to a concert. Once my husband and i went to a concert of hers in berkeley. She was sitting all goth dressed in black. She was sitting at the piano and she played the piano and essentially she screamed for two hours and then at the end of the concert everybody got up. Everybody left the room except four or five people and when we all looked at each other we were all in pablo's journeys didn't know we were there. The left people in the audience that had been sitting there transfixed into this chaos real where all journey people it was really like. We laughed hysterically. You know we're like the one sitting there empty theater you know life it's a fabulous creation to render the depths of this inner human space. I mean who does that. Who creates that. I find this worth exploring. And they're really so few people who could explore this well especially on podcasts. So it's very fun to have this conversation with you because there are many people out there who they listen to this track would say. This is the last thing you should ever play to anyone on psychedelics. And i think that many of those same people would be of the opinion. That in a psychedelic. Journey your duty as a guide is to comfort and support the journey ear but there also seems to be and just to be clear for everybody listening. This is not prescriptive. We are not giving medical advice nor recommending taking any compounds especially those that are illegal federally and otherwise this discussion of practices that we've been exposed to in various ways informational purposes only but all of that preamble out of the way in addition to different levels of support their different types of support and that disintegration that allowing of and perhaps even overcoming of resistance by force is something that doesn't get talked about a whole lot but it is also something that you can witness in some of the very old traditions in south america with ekos there certain types of songs that just pummel people into submission. They're highly repetitive. Their unrelenting and they just pound your psyche into some version of surrender. I would love to ask you in the world of facilitator and guide lore that is to say what people perceive those people should do. Let's start with you could help distinguish between facilitator and a guide and then also talk about perhaps some of the you would consider myths or fallacies of guiding facilitating. I think there's a lot of dog some of which may be helpful a lot of which is not so facilitating is inbetween sitting and guiding should say so people who are called cedars and facilitators somewhat are people who are apparently from what i understand creating a safe environment a supportive place physically safe who are quitting other place some sound that are helpful to people's internal explosion that don't intervene. They don't touch unless the person is really needing a hand to hold or is really agitated and needs saw a soothing that that might be a a moment of touch so those are the behavior or the context of sitting and facilitating but the guiding is a different story because the guiding is really connected with the indigenous context in which this work has been practice all these thousands of years. Which is that the person holding the space and guiding space is like you say singing or doing some drumming or doing some smoking or doing some applications of various oils of water or earth or grass like ground tobacco onto the person's body is applications of things. There is body manipulations when stuck in the body when there is fear there is actions that are being taken on the body of the journeys and that's the way journeys have been held in the tradition of the mushroom for example. Which is what. I feel capable of sharing here. I've been known to be really. I was hitting places of fear. I'm places where i was contracted and my My guide in mexico would come to me and put her hand on my belly and sort of check things out and kind of massage me and touch me and my belly and on my stern arm and she would massage my head and she would pour my toes and she would do all kinds things to liberate my body from this contraction and chat outcomes the different tools and techniques to do that and it was really interesting when i first got there to see. Oh my god. There's a lot of action in this room. This is not just like pablo playing music. That is very active and then leaving me to work with the staff prison of course and everything. This was hands on work big time and that's really the guiding the guiding. Is you have skills you have techniques. There's a situation happening you intervene. This is what's stub so. The guy has to know what to do what not to do the consent to do this. Different techniques and to know the techniques having received them to you know what does it feel to receive that of course we cannot project are experienced on someone else but at least we have a sense of what that is yeah. There's a lot of difference between sitting for someone in creating safe place and guiding and actually really actually intervening in the process to facilitate the opening and healing happening. And i think also this is personal opinion but that each of those distinct roles can have tremendous value. And one of the most important things is that you recognize the limitations of your competency and stay within the most appropriate role. So if we look at zenda show which is a nonprofit. It's peer to peer support. That you'll find in different festivals and so on which provides a safe place for people having difficult drug experiences including those people on psychedelics and they trained volunteers ahead of time in a very non direction. All supportive role so they can in a sense scale quickly to add more people for that type of low touch assistant role and then you have facilitators. You mentioned which requires additional skill sets. Pablo had a lot of training. And it's worth noting also that pablo would use many tools for the preparation and integration. So the session was really just one component. Then you have guides and then parallel with that war perhaps yet in a separate category you have people with in many cases decades of indigenous training and then they would go by the being they might consider themselves could under escort on their associated with takeda's whatever it might be and i would love to know when you personally became interested in learning about the craft and the toolkits associated with these medicines because the connective tissue around these experiences within these experiences is so important you know working with pablo gave me very interesting and creative launch pad for my learning being immersed in it my watching him my assisting him and all this different ways he had to prepare. People creatively physically spiritually in the land. A same for integrations those were very interesting multifaceted multidimensional techniques that essentially were harshly part of his tribal background and partially part of his moment to mormon creation. Which was great for me. Because that means that it didn't put me in a box of having to do it. A certain way to recipient but rather to draw from my intuition person to person create later on in my practice preparation styles or integration styles that would be adequate and potent for each individual. So it's not like there's a certain way to do something but rather it's design according to the person strang's to person weakness the person's balance and so pablo was very very inspiring and helping me create from the ground up from scratch. Really what would considered good preparation and good integration in my further training and immersion wister indigenous tradition of the mushroom in mexico. I got to be accumulating. A new layer of traditional and old techniques of what preparation means and what integration means. And what happens in journey like which spoke about you know all these intervention district knicks. So there was a lot of weaving between the original creative pool. That pablo was giving me and then this more traditional way of holding this mushroom ceremonies and how to best support people around that so credit. A sort of a web of safety net that was Composed both of my original training with pablo but also of course very much and flavored. By what i learned in mexico. We will certainly spent some time discussing the most tech traditions and how that entered into your life before we get there. And i don't know if the chronology is actually in this order but ralph metzner for those who don't know this name. Could you describe who ralph was and perhaps speak to his zone of genius and what you felt. He was particularly good at raf. Messner was one of the the three people who Started the experiments with psychedelic with timothy. Leary and richard halpern. That became ram dass so they started this whole experiment. Ralph was a young student. At the time these coast and further down the line rav became the dean of cis edina of professorship there and he was an alchemist. Ralph was genius alchemist. Route was extremely educated in yoga. Agni yoga especially it was extremely educated in breath work. It was extremely well read as for us. Engine traditions of the west of old europe especially it was a literary genius. It was a high highly educated man who was bringing together so many facets of wisdom and knowledge into a context of growth of psychotherapy it was essentially a psychotherapist and he was a medicine man. He had explored many different medicines through his life. He had immersed himself in south america to whisk away before it can ever on the northern continent. He had explored mushroom. He had been very close. Friend was my. Canine explored things with him in in the western world. He was very immersed into the mushroom world into the lsd world into the md may the five year world. He was very very curious to see the potency and the and the application for which medicine was very curious and what i learned from him over the thirty five years of very wonderful and affectionate friendship with him. I kept learning to develop new context. Raff was a constant inventor. He kept changing his mind on things. It was taking high doses. Then he was not believing in hydros believed in lower doses and any believed in living people alone to journey and then later on he believed in guiding people and he was guide people would create this visa and induction that it would tell us while we weren't sureness. And it was this fabulous fabulous was a like a guided. Meditation guided meditation. While you on of sorts going back into ancestors into the grandmother of your grandmother. And you know what you knew who she was when you were guided by him into these places or the the archetype of healing what is the shape of the archetype of feeling that is true for you and he would get us into this amazing visualization or induction stat. Were brilliant. What was brilliant about rough was his cadence. He knew when to talk and he knew when to wait he knew when to deliver. And you when to let things jay states in people's psyche it a brilliant man and he was curious till the end. I remember he came to see me to learn about salvia and you know i to guide him into a salvia journey because he wanted to develop a protocol so and i decided to protocol together that he wanted to do. Some people. salvia is legal. You know he could do salvia here and he was very curious. He was constantly trying to design your things and and to help people. In to explore the psyche an infinite world of creation was route and it was always very exact very applied to the preparation and integration to the sec with therapeutic benefit of explorations to the transformation of life raft was not very much into having experiences and collecting experiences was into. What do you want to work on. What do you want explore. And how do you feel transformed on the other side and for me. That was really fascinating to sharpen my mind into focusing on this important aspect of how do you prepare. How do you integrate about it was a it was another layer of those theme with ralph in the picture very interesting so the mention of salvia is i think a good excuse to segue to the traditions in mexico and in many respects baby full stop. I mean in in most respects. The salossa mushroom the so-called magic mushrooms. That are so widely known globally. At this point. Were as i understand it. You could correct me here. But introduced to the western zeitgeist by maria sabina who imparted or i should say exposed gordon watson and others to these mushrooms in mexico and certainly you had albert hoffman a had richard evans shelties and i mentioned salvia. Simply because salvia or diviner's sage grows in similar areas is also used by the mas. Tech's how did you become or how were you introduced to those traditions. How did that relationship develop. It's funny. I was on vacation with my daughter in the yucatan. Just her and i having a mother daughter moments and we were staying at the little hotel that had been recommended to us and the guy who was running. This hotel was a a wonderful guy. German mexican guy and he was very good. Friend was my teacher who since passed away a few years ago when when he heard about my interest and my work was pablo and all my whatever we were sharing. What we're talking you know as friends and acquaintances. He said i should take to someone. You have to meet someone and i said okay. I said yeah. There's some destiny there. I should take you bring you to her. Said okay so it was like okay. That sounds like a good idea and so we met in october at the airport in ohio. Sort of who. Is this guy. You know. I'm going to travel with him for ten days. That sounds a little whatever bold but it sounds like a good person and we traveled together and he took me all around the and and then we drove up to the town where my teachers to leave and introduced me to her and we bonded. She took me into her ceremony room and showed me the menu so to speak served me many places of mushrooms and a sort of a took me into her world in quite a mighty hand which was actually a very masterful loving deeply carrying and highly skilled. And i thought. I have everything to learn and she did. Teach me a lot over the next twenty something years. We traveled the world together. And i went there many times bringing many people and i got immersed into this original tradition of the mushroom and salvia and she needed hit me to salvia which i did not know which is very fascinating plant and dimic to the region. It belongs to the region unlike other things that grow in different places so she should be the leaves. She showed me her plant. We had to go to her place where she was. My teacher was born to be able to see the plants. Roy where we're growing near the house. We have to visit the plant and we have to talk to them and ask permission to take some leaves and bring them back to the house and then she had been going to ceremony and give me some leaves to chew and she prayed to the goddess into the earth's mother to the lady of the plan shepherdess the scope of starts called and initiated me into this very feminine tradition of the salvia which is very beautiful space of green world. Seeing the world through the eyes of plant is a very beautiful experience at his life. Changing all right. Let's focus on the feminine for a minute because you've mentioned pablo my understanding of the lineage. That you were exposed to buy. Your teacher is that among the indigenous in that part of mexico. It seems like the mushroom traditions which it sounds strange even put it that way but the medicine traditions are held in a very matriarchal lineage. I mean i'm sure there are male practitioners but was that we're gonna come back to. We're not going to leave. That open ended. I know people will be interested to hear what that can be used for and what it should not be used for. Perhaps how it should not be used. I have some thoughts on that too. But was that your first time being exposed to a female centric tradition or two experts in medicine work. who had i very feminine orientation. It was and it was really amazing moment for me. You know. I was very grateful to abloh. Of course. I was very grateful to ralph. I was very grateful to salvatore who had been so a teacher of pablo and a person in my life. Also but this was a man's world and i had not had any woman to lean on sort of speak and to learn from and being a woman in this field thirty years ago was kinda lonely. Even though there were other women interested in psychedelics. Of course of course and my friends now and all that but in terms of learning and studying and immersing oneself into someone as a teacher you know and there was ten graph of course out there. It was not my teacher but there were other men. Of course we're wonderful teachers into field or knowledgeable people with a lot of a lot of wisdom. The went to meet my teacher. And i started to lean into this feminine environment. Well as a woman it felt natural it felt coherent to my understanding of the space. My being a mother felt are so part of resonance with my teacher. Who was a mother to my personal closeness with. The world of nature was very much in resonance with hers because she was also a farmer and carrying word and picking up the coffee and planting or corn and all that and making tortillas and so we would have it togetherness in again the mushroom ceremony and how she would teach me how to guide it. But i'm so in life in general and again. I think that what was really important for me was sure what she was teaching meena ceremony away but how she was a teacher as a woman from my life from much more aspects than justice remonial think -nology or context of her work. And that's what i think. I i learned a lot. I mean she was not an ideal person. She had a personality in moments like everybody everybody else but her away being a master at what she was doing and then a very humble woman otherwise and offending women and cracking up all the time and we would go and gather plants and drink a beer. You know. I don't know in the patio or do stuff that we're kind of fun and rambunctious together and that world of woman. What is like to be a woman master just being serious in your ceremony room. There's a whole life around life with the cans with the grandkids in her case and and the people and the women in the marquette and the way she eats and the where she cooks and the way she relates to the rituals of lighting candles and earning kapala and all the different things that were part of her life. Not just in germany room. And i think this is what touched me. A lot was who she was a woman with her imperfection but who she was as a as a woman master of mushroom ceremony in her globality. In our wholeness. It makes me so happy that we're able to cover so many different corners of this world through this conversation because we talked about chaos music and having a woman screaming into your psyche tearing you apart breaking you down one step at the time which can have tremendous value and then on the other side. You've had this deep exposure and training through these mazda traditions where they might bring a grandchild in during the ceremony to sing a song. They'll ask you how you're doing and check in with you and be very very focused in their work in prayer and their efforts as a guide and clinician while grasping very lightly if that makes sense. It's a very different touch and both can be extremely effective. I defined that very reassuring. And i would love to hear you describe how these indigenous groups before we get to. Because i realized i was getting ahead of myself. I was saying we should discuss. How win and so on. Salvia should be used before we talk about. How how we might use salvia i. It makes sense to talk about how traditionally salvia is used as well as mushrooms. And if you want to mention morning glory we could talk about that as well just in terms of the tools that are used historically for what purposes would these things be used. You know it's interesting. You just starting by mentioning such a contrast in context right between demand crying in your ears and then you know indigenous teacher. You know how you doing you know and praying over you and all that caring for your you know and i think that what's important to i just won't do little On this if i may. I think that what's really important is to realize that the common denominator is this killed fullness of the container being pablo diamond gallops with me for me and knew that i would feel safe because he was there and he was containing my experience and i could feel the container of his faith in my process. That's a really big precision to add and my teacher is the same thing she could be there. She could check how is doing. She could talk to her sense and order the mushrooms to do this or that on me or touch me but it always because you have people who are master guides train guides keeled at what the doing and whatever the doing you receive in surrender and you're receiving trust. They do the right thing for you. So it's about the quality of the guide that creates the safety and a trust in which all this can take place whatever it is under gala sore. A nice little touch. So what was the part of your other question. Sorry i wanted to put that up because it is important. It is important because there is. There is some common ground underneath the obvious surface level tactics us. I think it's important. The question was how the indigenous in that sort of oaxacan region in in the mountainous areas for what purposes. They use mushrooms or salvia were morning. Glory well the dentist use mushroom in the rainy season because that's when they grow and they eat the mushroom fresh there so the rainy season is generally between june end of september. Roughly during that time. There's a lot of mushrooms like mushrooms trays and trays of various kinds of mushrooms. Arriving at the house and you can keep up with them. Basically and various mushrooms not just the cubans as the dome bay. The toes different mushrooms all mine altering mushroom of course and then the salvia grows all year round by the little creek in the shade in the dappled shade apple sun so the top via is a medicine that can be used all year round morning. Clarice seeds are growing at the end of the dry season and they are blooming and after the bloom people gather the seeds and the seats can be of course used any time in the year that can be kept forever and seeds are chewed adair soaked and a warm water and then chewed and the kind of a pretty unpleasant on the stomach. I have to say but the can make people a little nauseous. And then the journey's like an llc journeys essentially very visual not very physical by very visual. So that's the morning. Glory seeds that create basically and lsd like journey. The salvia is traditionally chewed. It should not be smoked. I repeat it should not be smoked. The smoking the leaves of salvia it say An insult to the plant. It's not appropriate is not a fire element. It's water element. It's feminine watery element and so it is supposed to be chewed or some people have made tinctures with the leaves and then the tincture can be brought into the mouth with an little hot water. Left under the talk to be absorbed. The sub oblique world membrane salvia is not ingested in the stomach. It doesn't affect you if you chew the leaves and swallow them immediately. They are absorbed by sub lingual membrane. Journey salvia depends on the dosage. One absorbs and different people have different sensitivities towards salvia. Some people are very sensitive to it. I am one of them. Some people are not sensitive to it very much inside inside joke. That card trip trip down memory. Land assuming one has set sail with salvia. How long is the experience. Generally speaking the experience is about an hour long again. Depending on the number of leaves shooed or drops of tinctures kept in the mouth. So journey can be anything from strenuously relaxing on a physical level a sense of quietness and suspension and ease and sort of somatic physical meditation that has no content that has no much sensation. Just a sense of ease when the quantity is augmented people tend to have access to very early memories early life memories. Which can be very enduring. Such as i remember remembering the underneath of the kitchen table in my childhood home which is sweet. The memory bank of young child of two years old three years old looking under the table. And having this world of you know what the world looks like like this to You know the way. My my schoolbag was closing in this little closing of the bag that they had in the old days in the sixties as so. It's very sweet to have access to memories like this. Of course and ralph and i were looking at that. It can be an incredible access to places in the psyche. That are traumatized that are holding. May maurice A lot more challenging and by guiding the people into this field of access one can remember physically or an gently or visually certain instance of trauma and robin. I designed or redesigned protocol. Where people would be guided into accessing those places of pain while also accessing the places in them that were healing that had toolan and skilled to heal that very place or survived at very place. What was present at the time that allowed the young person to actually survive or cope so very interesting introspective. Possibility was this medicine. I'm very interested in working with this for different reasons because for several it's accessible and he's legal and a short acting and when it's held in a very careful way it can have a lot of healing potential on a higher dose. Salvia can be bringing people into very strange landscape of two dimensional non-physical dimension like the smell the smell of a flower. You know becoming a smell or becoming a color or becoming sense of time between sounds so that can really tech people into sort of bizarre landscape which i find fascinating. Some people said you really like that. And i said yeah because it's the is the edge of consciousness you know it's it's when are you going to become time you know you gotta take saudia for this and i love that. I love the idea of exploring. We'll dimensions ultimate floor. How far can i go into weirdness. It's a just a second that i never heard you describe that experience of the bottom of your childhood table. The hyper nesia. Like the opposite of amnesia. That incredibly detailed access to old memory is really remarkable. I had a very parallel experience of remembering the brown corduroy of this couch. When i had to be an infant is clear as crystal this couch that i then recalled from old childhood photographs and so on and what was so incredible about the experience and i should also just emphasize people that salvia is legal. In many places. It is not legal in all states to make sure that you check your local jurisdiction. And i also would second your strong cautionary note that smoking for both. I would say reasons of respect to the genesis of these plants in the historical context. It's in advisable that once smoke a water. Plant secondarily if you if you overwhelm yourself with a huge bullets of salvia. It is very often incredibly unpleasant. And a lot of people will try to run away from their experience and trip over couches and hit walls and things like that so a lot of things to advise against it at the lower range is being able to direct your memory also able to direct memory. Two languages that i studied decades ago that i had no conscious recollection of it was fascinating at the higher doses. It is extremely bizarre if you want to like you said experience being time between the beats or inhabiting object consciousness as a lamp post or something like that then this this may be the tool for you and it's it's incredibly distinct for me. At least from any of the classic psychedelics that act strongly on the serotonin type two receptors acting on the kappa opioid receptors. It's completely distinct. That's right and for what purpose would a say. Must tech us salvia or mushrooms. What problems would they be trying to solve. What goal would they be trying to facilitate like what are the just like. A doctor might say. Hey take two of these and call me in the morning gonna give you this. Anti inflammatory to decrease inflammation. I'm gonna give you this painkiller to deal with this particular issue. What are the problems or goals that they use these things for us mushroom for an overall access to the spiritual world to peering and cleaning their heart and to circulate energy in the body to clarify relationships and to pray to have a devotional practice to have access to their relational pathway with the divine god as they call it and to the earth they believe in praying to the earth's just praying to god. They believe in praying to the mushrooms intelligence. Just like praying to the divine design coronated. The salvia sims to be more used there. I have a little less knowledge of that plant. But what i understand and what i've talked with them is that they used to plan for deviation for finding out something finding out what is the source of the disease finding out if loft one is well finding out who is cursing them it talk a lot about energy stairs someone wishing them wrong can be impacting their energy field. And they're treating that very seriously. They call it nvidia if someone has invidia. It creates a distorted field around the person who's receiving that's not curse per se but bad wish or invidia envy and so they wanna know who is creating that envy feeling. What does that come from. And once the nor it's coming from the can have more tools to actually block and a genetically the source of that disturbance. So it's more used for finding things out which is given a tory power of the plant. Really well it is salvatore after all and just to translate a few things that you said or to emphasize them underscore them. The mushrooms could be used for disharmony in the family. Right if a if a couple is it in a in a huge fight or if there's just some degree of discord within a home that's one use case. Then there's there's this entire spectrum of possible uses from connecting with god or the sacred all the way to who stole my donkey actually saw this old footage of. There's this show from the fifties. I want to say called one step beyond you can find this black and white video on youtube. It's actually really an incredible anthropological watch. But they visit a gouda narrow in mexico working with mushrooms and a local has come to this person specifically to find out where his donkey is that has been stolen so it goes all the way from the deeply sacred on one side to the secular and profane and very flexible practical. Yeah donkey locator tim. The fascinating thing about politics people would consider the mushroom. It's the doctoring. I mean this say it does everything i mean. This is the magic pill for them. I mean i'm not making fun of them. But you know whatever's wrong. They go to the doctor and the doctor is the mushroom so the doctor is gonna show them their illeg. Show them the spirit. Show them everything they have to see. So they they go there and they know they're gonna see whatever they need to see and it's appropriate to where they ought so. This is really the ultimate and only doctor. I mean these are very poor. People who don't have access to medicine so the only thing that counts them to restore their energy to clean themselves. This is not a cleansing mushroom right purification and so that process is really restoring them to health. And they're right it works. It is a process of restoring health through moving things and finding things out and revealing. May marie and different emotions that are lodged ten so they write it circulates energy and it purifies the whole system. Yeah yeah that's what. I'm describing in the book a little bit. You know the the the circulation of energy is what creates the healing. And if we look at these for instance. This particular indigenous tradition there are so many things to be gleaned and learned from skilled practitioner say amongst domestic someone who has been doing this for decades but his actually part of a lineage that extends for hundreds of thousands of years and many things that might be dismissed. End up being very very practical also. Let's just say eating mushrooms with the front teeth. Or combining it with honey and cacao quite a lot to be said for what that does for energy through the night plus allowing the suicide and to be absorbed at the early stages of digestion is so these things that might be dismissed by researchers or doctors superstitious. In fact have some very practical outcomes at the same time it seems very challenging to copy and paste. What is done in mexico to say chicago where the culture and maybe some of the maladies affecting people are so different so my question is and this is part of the reason. I enjoy spending time with us that you have the extended training in these indigenous traditions. But you also have the psychotherapeutic lens and you have exposure to other tools. What are some of the challenges of say. Just keep it simple americans from industrialized highly industrialized cities using these indigenous traditions. Ken the tools be used with people. Who have pathology of extreme self loathing or perhaps other issues that don't present themselves as much in these traditional cultures. And how have you thought about combining different elements. It is true. I hear you completely that the industrialized world has different afflictions. That are not necessarily present in an indigenous framework social fabric isolation the disconnection from nature the source of the food that spiritual environment for cultural global social prayers on there in the chicago suburb. Say however if we look at the big picture of the mushroom fundamentally what mushroom are doing their like adopted gents meaning they like i said earlier they will restore us to the middle place in which we settled our physical and emotional bodies so no matter where we leave no matter who we are and to come from or the environment in which we leave the social framework in which relieve or the family background that we carry the mushrooms will go inside the person to restore what needs to be re enlivened and too calm what needs to be appeased to fuel what needs to be fed and to bring calm to what is exacerbated like craving and wanting and addiction pacing and fast consumerism. So things are again. Rot to a healthy middle healthy normal healthy flow. The fascinating thing is that no matter who goes into this mushroom journeys. The result of the process is at the process of a human being fundamentally unified. Yes we have our distinction. Someone from a certain race has certain burden or stress rear stress in life. That another person from another race doesn't have clearly. We're not denying that or a person. In a certain economical a status will have different stressed on a person who has less means but when we going to the work what i've been fascinated by reflecting and seeing is that people are all dealing with the same thing. How do i love myself. How do i respect myself. How do i take care of myself. How do i remember who. I am in this body in this heart into life. And how do i express that and really matter. The culture ultimately because the core of the person is being treated the afflictions or the presenting symptoms of the presenting. Stresses are unique but the fundamental cure is the same was talking to my friend in the region there must attack friend and she was having family problems and i said to her well which you do mushroom for this. Would you go into mush journey. And she said yeah. I need to measure them. I said you could go pray you could go. You know you could do different things. What would the mushroom do for you. And she said well. I'm a human being. And i have family problems and i'm gonna take the mushroom to find out how i can heal myself and how i can open my heart. And how can i may be guided in the right step of what i need to be doing for my family for my relationship or for whatever. I'm gonna do what i need to do. And the mushroom is gonna guide me. And i was telling her i said what is interesting. You know it's the same thing that i would tell anybody. In north america who has very different lifestyle very different circumstances of livelihood and people are suffering and she said yeah people are suffering people are people and people are suffering. You know you. Asian african american latino. You're white you have different circumstances. That are very unique to your race. Possibly to your location where you live with your race but inside your heart. The pain of suffering of the pain of addiction of the pain of a family situation is very shared and she said when humanity can really connect on the level of shared pain. We can really heal the world and society. we have to find a commonality. We have to find our difference weakness difference of context and race and social class. And all this and where we live and we have to find where we are united on the fundamental level. Which was very interesting for me. Because i thought you would make distinction between while i'm here and you're new there and this is not the same problem but no she was actually finding not the common denominator but the common ground for what creates healing for the world. Really i sitting two feet from this book which you certainly no man's search for meaning frankl. There's a lot of despite our many particularities. There's a lot of core fundamentals that are shared and i suppose part of why asked it the way that i asked it. Is that in certain cultures whether it's in a people village or in a mazda town or in a household it an indigenous community where you have three generations or generations the idea of integration in some senses is built into the cultural fabric. Where in the us that as one example. That may not be the case. So if we go back to the arrived parents jamaica and this'll be a segue into discussing components of training. What makes a well-trained guide. And a also what can go sideways. If you do not have a well-trained guide what did the crap. And or integration. You can pick whichever look like for that group of bereaved parents. The retreat were designed was a five day retreats and it was five days because we wanted to live with them. It was not exclusively about the mushroom journey itself with themselves. Tumors from journeys we did a light does and then two days later a deeper dive is because we wanted to create an entire context for them to be together to journey together to support one another and to be supported and we created a series of practices. One was journal writing creating an intention. Each parent was spared up with a guide that would spend time on zoom before getting to jamaica to talk about their background talk about their support system. They were in therapy of course medical background and check on their meds. Seen some of them were on antidepressant or anti anxiety due to their grave and creating a vision for the healing. What did they wish for what photo they wanted to bring up their child. So there was a lot of preparatory practices. Once we got into jamaica. We also went to the nature. There was beautiful place and we did some sharing circles of course to hear each other and we did the preparatory journey of light dose to prepare the parents for the effect of the mushroom since most of them had not mushrooms before. If i may intersect can't what was a light dose or the later does it was about a gram and a half a gram and a half of dried mushrooms. Yeah it'd be a graham. Even some some women were there was a couple of women who are very sensitive and we give them maybe three quarter of a grab even and really got them Opened up so to speak and starting to open their grieving. Ouch was very touching. The deeper dive was definitely a higher dose. Like around between three and a half and five and a half six grams for some couple of men needed higher doses. We did a lot of work in nature. We did land art. We went to the river. We went swimming into river. We really wanted people to be resourced by nature and grounded in nature and surrounded by the elements. The diet was very important. I had asked for vegetarian diet. We had a couple of meals with fish at certain time after the journey but not before the journey we had no alcohol during the entire time. Nobody was drinking at all we did. Some artwork is clay. We had a ceramics to junior by and we did clay and i wanted to say here. I want to name. It's very emotional for me. But one woman actually brought the ashes of her daughter and made a vessel was ashes into clay. You know that kind of stuff happened there. And she was crying the whole time and making the vessel so beautiful. Another woman made a vase to hold flowers on the altar for her son. So we had this moments like this very imagined this preparation right. This woman is holding a daughter's ashes to put in this clay so we had all these different elements of preparation and then we had the journey. The big journey especially a lot of sharing a lot of touching base with each parent by the guides presence we had some energy work being dispensed by wonderful jamaican energy worker. We had some bodywork session for people to be receiving some tlc and care and attention. We protected people solitude if they wanted to be alone and then after the journey we had of course a lot of talking a lot of sharing a lot of naming how parents had been so touched by each other's journey. There was this man who i think it would be. Okay for me to say that he was sitting up. He had a hard time considering is on relationship with his son and it was complex. I guess a lot of fathers teenage songs complex relationship and he leaned over and he asked me to give him the picture of the other son of this other woman and when he looked at this picture of that other child he cried. He couldn't have cried with a picture of his own child. He was sort of locked in a way not in a bad way but he wasn't a complexity of the dynamic and he could not access this grief but when you look at this other child who had died he accessed is tears and then he put the pictures next to each other so we put the children together and that was so touching. I was sitting. There was tears in my eyes. I mean this entire journey was quite a an amazing experience for the staff to witness all this moments where parents would support one another champion win. Another integration was also of course individual talk and then some different rituals that people would do and letters to write their child and people. You know this this one woman she. She went to the place where her child had been working. And she brought some presents from jamaica. Left them there and then decided to move town and general be wanting to move because she felt she needed to stay where her daughter had died and now she could leave. She could move on with her life. So yeah we having a we're having a zoom session. All of us saturday again to follow up. We're doing a lot of group session. Follow up all the staff all the parents to be able to continue the weaving of the support and listening to one another. There are few things that you just described that really strike me of course putting aside for the moment just the emotional impact of the story of the ashes and the story of looking at the photograph of someone else's child. I mean these are charged powerful moments from a practitioner standpoint. A number of things not to say. I'm practitioner but looking at how this was formatted a few things that really strikes me number one. Is that the power of the group. Dynamic is such an incredible seems to be such an incredible formative element in the outcome. Possible outcomes for something like this type of deep grief of losing a child and that it also presents in a way a tremendous opportunity because one of the challenges of providing psychedelic. Therapy or psychedelic assisted. Therapy is the best way to phrase it to greater numbers of people is certainly training enough competent practitioners which you're spearheading in a very very real way and then also mitigating. Some of the costs which can be done through scholarships can be done through hopefully insurance reimbursement and also through group experiences. And i find that very reassuring to see not that it is necessarily as effective as one on one work but in some respects. These group dynamics could be more effective for people and provide them with a support structure afterwards. That is an entirely dependent on therapists. The other point that. I want to ask also clarifying question. I might know the answer. We'll see is is the reason for introducing the nature. The artwork and these various tools to provide people with grounding mechanisms. That they can then use after they leave jamaica when they are physically removed from the group from therapist that they feel resourced to in some way. Extend the therapeutic or deepen the therapeutic effect and. They feel that they can do that on their own. Is that part of the reason why you introduce those elements were are there. Other reasons it is. It is partially. Because i want to give them skills and tools to continue to stabilize what they have opened up the journey. And furthermore i mean this different layers of this one other aspect is that when there will be nature that sensation of being in nature will remind them of the retreat and the remembrance when the do clay or when they do some ritual together on the land with the creator amman dollars tweaks and they will always remain notice of what happened in that retreat so as slack pavlovian response you know you associate something with something and then you are. Activating the entire emotional state. That was present at the retreat. So when they go swimming river from now on that will remind them of the retreat when they make some clay that will remind him of the retreat. When they watch this vessel. Diff- made they will be reminded of the retreat. So i'll just different element are bringing them back into the felt sense of the retreat. The other thing about that is very very important for me. And i've learned from both of my teachers is that we are healed by nature. We are healed by the elements. We are healed by the grass and the and the rocks and the water. We are nature so to bring that element is not just a tool in and of itself but it is a reminder of our natural self kalita always used to say. My teacher always used to say that. It's not the mushroom. That heals is the nature that gross it and so that west. The bull plans the salvia you know. They are messengers of nature. They are different children of nature and they look different than they have different potency and they work differently on the brand but essentially they are grown and born of nature so by being in nature. You know it's an activity in it's an environment. But it's essentially reconnecting with the absolute and ultimate hiller and that's really what the indigenous traditions are all about. It's about earth it's about orientation it's about food it's about the alimentos subodh the herbs that healed the body. It's all about the rituals. That don the earth whiz the earth from the earth you know elements of the earth. And that's really the only elements of indigenous wisdom that needs to be brought into a more industrialize world and does kind of important for me as far as guide training like bringing how do we bring indigenous wisdom into a training format and those are elements of the essential existence of nature and essence of nature. Is what needs to be very very central to that indigenous wisdom. So i don't know if we'll have time but people should certainly look this up. I don't know if there's is particularly good place to find it but your involvement with the council for thirteen indigenous grandmothers is such an incredible story and such a rich represents a rich cohesion and diversity in this group do have a hard cover. I don't know if people can actually purchase this book. At this point that describes all thirteen grandmothers being one of them. Do you know if people can find more information about this online anywhere. I suppose whether they can or can't you give them just an overview of what that was. Because i think it might still be. I know there was a website and there was some activities. The council dissolved because if completed their cycle of things over the years Since it created the council in two thousand and four upstate new york as a matter of fact in menlo retreat center. And that's where this was created and they've been in each other's place and they prayed together but there is a website called possibly council of thirteen janus grandmothers. That should be the word for it. And there's a movie about the grandmothers called grandmothers council. The world. I think maybe does the title of the book about but there are different things to listen. And there's a wonderful movie that was done about all this council that ends actually when we went to visit his holiness the dharmsala. We had a private audience with him. And that's when the movie ends sexually kind of early into the council life but it was very beautiful to have this. Different voices of indigenous women brought together to exchange players and exchange ways of connecting with the land with indigenousness. It was very inspiring to be merced in that field for awhile and just to add a little more description to that. These were thirteen female indigenous leaders from all over the world a very different traditions in many cases and we will put links in the show notes for people who would like to explore that more which i highly highly recommend. Let's talk about training for a moment. And i want to explore that because of course that is one of the focal points for the center of conscious medicine. I think it makes sense to talk about some of the potential risks of using these very powerful plants and compounds. What are some of the risks if you use these compounds with untrained facilitators or in a rented shamans who advertise on facebook. Who really have no proper training. What are some of the things that can go wrong. The first and foremost warning is health safety. Someone who is not doing a safe enough intake on the health condition of the person wanting to journey someone. Who's not paying attention to the medication. They may take someone who doesn't know if it has been known traumas present addiction patterns an absence of support system a very disturbed family environment in which they would return after an experience an issue of racism or economical hardship or oppression in their life. If someone does not ask this question to adjourn error in d. intake in the first getting to know someone wants to journey that can lead to some very complicated situations of filling unsupported of feeling and injured physically psychologically emotionally. That's the first thing that comes in my in my consciousness. When you say that the wrong intake with the absence of intake then there is also the whole layer of intelligence in this process of journey. What one person can touch in those experiences is so diverse. One can be really sick. Physically one can be emotionally very triggered into repressed memories or a real memory of being oppressed of being attacked of being mishandled as a child or if a guy is not offer. Cedar facilitator is not really trained. That can be really leading to re traumatize ation and sense of abandonment sense of wanting so it can be really dangerous and destabilizing for the person being in the journey and coming out of it and then there is a whole layer of you. Know how is the guide or the facilitator in this case. Is the facilitator really educated in the skill in the art of guiding of holding a tradition of intervening or having some skills and technique to hold the space for certain situations that open a lot of dangerous in there when someone is not really adequately trained and there are red flags like you mentioned. I would consider lack of medical intake to be an immediate red flag. If someone doesn't ask you what medications you're on. I've spoken to people who are on the verge of going to drink iowa and they're taking ss arise and no one asks them what medications they're taking which can be incredibly dangerous. Serotonin syndrome is not a joke. So there are some very real health risks and psychiatric. Certainly medications can be contraindicated without certainly be a red flag. The absence of a medical intake would be a huge red flag. Let's talk about also the ability to handle challenging experiences. And i want to use an example from your book. So consciousness medicine discusses many facets of this type of work many different tools. Many different frameworks. And i'm looking at page. One sixty one so one sixty one and it reads as follows. I'm going to dig into a specific example. Because i have a friend who comes to mind. And here's outreach. The following five categories include the most common types of spiritual experiences people have an expanded states of consciousness so expanded these of consciousness here can refer to many things it could be elicited by breath work it could also be elicited by something like salvia or mushrooms or another anthea or psychedelic here the five one meaninglessness to reclaiming our spiritual life three messianic and spiritual archetypes for the underlying perfection of all things five ego dissolution so some of these are easier to contend with than others. And i want to bring up an example of a friend. This is from a recent conversation who had an experience. He had a number of recreational experiences in college and then nothing for several decades and then had a very large psychedelic experience and he ended up finding himself in his session in what he would consider a void if that makes sense so he was holed into outer space and found himself in this deep dark void and he suffered from. And i've also had this experience a degree of. Let's call it onto logical. Shock zoomed out in. This void is that it can be incredibly challenging to re-engage with the day to day of like ensuring that you have lunch and handle email and your calendar where all of a sudden. You've zoomed out and seeing all of humanity and the species of humankind as like flickering of a firefly. It's it's very hard sometimes to go back to navigating normal life you're capable of it but it can be very difficult su. He struggled with that experience of what he would call. Kind of meaninglessness. I mean it's one of these categories for a reason and if a practitioner if a guy does not know how to help someone digest that or integrated or at least metabolize it. It can have very long term. Lingering effects how do you help them with that type of experience being in the meaninglessness can be scary or it can be very fruitful meaning. Some people touched a meaninglessness because there are very dramatizing life. They're very you know everything is a big deal and everything as a big drama and so the to touch the one eighty of this right. What is the one eighty. Nothing matters and so it doesn't mean nothing matters. It means they are on the other spectrum of what they're taking life as i'm not saying this is the case maybe for your friend but this is one option of why this is appearing for them. Why because they have to feel what it's like to have a life that's not so heavy in meaning so heavy in intellectualize ing everything that happens or analyzing everything psychologically or dissecting every emotion. They have so that can be sort taking them out of their brains so to speak an out of their emotional intensity for other people. Meaninglessness can also be bringing up the fact that they have absolutely no connection with spirit after practice definitely belief they have no cultivation of spiritual ethos they have no relationship was what is sigrid in their life. I'm not saying imposing any dogma albany religion but what's sacred minced to them so they realized how flat their life is so that can be another reason. Why someone as that kind of experience. That can be an interesting topic. I had a president wants who in a journey was touching such meaninglessness and she was realizing her life was like a big desert. You know there was no gross. There was nothing on it. And i said to her. Well what is sacred for you. I was asking the question later on. She said well really said oh. So what grows in the desert. It's the desert sacred in an upbeat. Self i'm not saying it doesn't have to be sacred. But can you see the sacredness in the desert to what gross here there's life in the desert you know and she said well no. There's nothing here i'm like. So how do you cultivate separateness in life. How do you invite the possibility that things are more than flatten meaningless. So inviting sacredness. Making some ritual pudding candle is like fake it till you make it. You have to set up something. That's going to start to cultivate the possibility of an emergence of until it emerges is just do it. You do it do it. And then ton of a set on you stuck to. Oh it's tough to work. Something is in fact feeling more meaningful. Or i'm studying to feel more in awe. In wonder every journey no matter how cryptic it is has a meaning has a reason to be in. It's the perfect journey for you. You just have to find out what it is. And that's why a guide comes in because a guide who is well trained who has been in many places themselves in those experiences can navigate the complexity of of what can come up. That's the first condition of a well-trained guide is guide. That knows the inner space of the journey itself and also sometimes. It's the guide simply telling you that this happens that it. Not some unique flaw. That means you have a cosmic deficiency for all time. It's like this is one of the five categories. This comes up and someone who can allow you or help you to make meaning of it that is serving instead of debilitating and i like the fake it until you make just like all right. I understand that you don't think anything is sacred but maybe you should ask yourself. What would you do if you believed something were sacred. Just practice that for a week. Exactly it's like you know unless you sit down on the mat on the cushion. Close your eyes for five minutes today. You'll never know how many tation can feel like but if you do that every day. It's kinda start talking to you. Start feeling es and you're gonna start to tap into quietness and pretty soon. You're gonna like it. But i might be totally. It's brought this practice. Yeah because it's in your bio and united discussed before a one to at least give mentioned to it and that is the komi method. Would you be willing to describe what the hukou method is. And how it is useful or used so the how call me met dot was created by ron kurz. I think in the. I want to say in the eighties. I'm gonna take a bold move here. And it was created out of a combination of principle of mindfulness principle drawn from gestalt principle coming from systems theory and from felton kreis. I think i don't forget anything i don't. It's been a long time since. I've been immersed in high komi training and our trend longtime ago and those different aspects of this method invite people into a mindful awareness of how their emotions are organized physically are held in the body and how they can be transformed. It's about looking at belief system and organization of experience on a physical level and so with the aid of a practitioner. One can take stock of how one feels whereas it lodged in the body and how to identify the belief system associated with this physical experience emotional experience and change those belief system and changed the map of the inner self consequently very interesting method of looking at the inner landscape of one's experience. What would you like the center for consciousness medicine to achieve. What are you hoping it to do. And of course people can find more information at center for c. dot com. I know a fair bit about your background. There are some very very skilled and well credentialed people associated. Why create it. And what are you hoping for it to accomplish. It has been my dream. Really to replicate and pass on. Transmit what i've learned and it has been important for me to empower more therapies to have a knowledge of indigenous traditions of a method that is holistic at the core to help people with psychedelic experience when they become available because trending skill guys is essential for the future of what psychedelic can be for the world for population. The uniqueness in this formula that we are creating is that we are really bridging an indigenous arc and methode than come from and philosophy into a more industrialized western model of psychotherapy and approach was trauma. As you well know from your podcast gabor mezei you understand intricacies of trauma and we wanna bring all this knowledge of trauma attachment addiction depression anxiety into crossing with the indigenous knowledge and wisdom. That really can anchor. The secondly quirk the best we feel. We are not so much looking into the clinic lance although we value it. But we're looking into bringing these two worlds together which is really my passion. When i see a lot of trainings. Going around is appreciate everybody creation. Of course always see that. They are lacking the indigenous sold. The fuel the roots of this entire practice of psychedelic essentially so for me. I'm really fascinated and passionate about bringing that so our goal is to offer this trainings to a lot of people coming from many different backgrounds. We wanna make it accessible. We want to make it really reciprocal. We want to create a way to support indigenous people who have carried this traditions and we are actually creating a reciprocity fund as we speak. She's very inspiring for me. I really wanna that culture to be supported in what if carried for so many years and passed on to us through. Mario benign gordon watson. On this an us who now can carry the suicide saving work forward through research and through this practice. We want to be respectful of the massachusetts tradition. I feel i have woven relationship for over twenty years with them and i feel a very good standing and my authorization of articulating things that they want me to teach to people as we articulate ccm. This weaving. that i was talking about. We have many years of being therapies in being in the work of psychedelic with thirty five years. Essentially of of being immersed into this world so we feel we can offer a certain expertise and then go into that. I also want to say. Because i don't think we'll get into a lot of the details of this but i think it's worth saying that your influence and impact in the. Let's just say. The psychedelic communities extends a lot further than people may realize into the medical communities into the research and scientific communities. You have been engaged and teaching for a very very long time and that your interests are touching on multiple pillars of this rapidly growing. Let's just community but within the realm of scientific research clinical applications. These are all overlapping portions of event. Diagram that you are familiar with. And within which you've spent time and that's part of why i've wanted to have this conversation on the podcast because i think you really represent a cross disciplinary approach that is able to customize the patients who need it most bike training well-versed and adaptable therapists were guides. Let's just called psychedelic assist therapists or therapists. Who work with psychedelic compounds. Are there any particular criteria that you think make for good. I'll just use the terms therapist to make it simple. I'm not talking about necessarily licensed therapist in the in the context of state licensed for psychotherapy. But if we're talking about psychedelic assisted therapy. What do you think if any are the criteria or prerequisites that make for good therapists. I'm going to say the main number one criteria is personal experience with the psychedelic. People are going to give people saw a therapist should really understand the personal experience the benefit the territory the complexity the diversity of experience one can have ideally speaking. I mean in the ideal world. You and i know that in the amazon or in mexico people have years of experience before they gonna be daring to give someone else the medicine i mean the apprenticeship level is thorough and long now we can't be replicating that because it's not possible i. It's very complicated to create such a a level of apprenticeship even though i wish it for people so the personal experience that we want to deliver to the future trained therapists is essential. So we wanna make sure that people have the experience of the mushroom themselves that they are watching guides. Practice senior guides practice on other people the skills and techniques and we want to create a model that is both an apprenticeship and in personal experience and also practicing on each other's within the training so it's a multifaceted model that is very sort of a time consuming and sort of high level but we feel it's essential to not dilute the quality for quantity even though we want to make sure a lot of people will be trained and we ever scaling numbers. I don't know exactly but lots of people will be trend but we want to be really diligent in how each therapist will be really having their own experience to really understand what is slack. Been such space. That's really the first condition. And i will say that as someone who's certainly surveyed the landscape for a fair period of time and doug around considered many different options for increasing z. Quantity of qualified therapists. Who can provide these types of therapies. Which is one of the primary rate limiting steps of these therapeutically available to more people. One of the largest problems to address or challenges is training therapists and looking at the kids in the field. At the moment. I feel very confident. That you represent and injure team. But certainly if i haven't spent time with all of your team but a very informed well practiced approach to increasing the number of therapists while maintaining a very very high level of quality. Because there are going to be incentives economic incentives business bottle incentives perhaps regulatory incentives. I don't know to minimize the amount of training. And i think it's very compound dependent. Perhaps there are compounds. Where a non directive light touch can be highly effective and it copies and pastes into the current western psychotherapeutic model. Sixty minutes sessions very well. But in many instances that will not be the case. And i really encourage people to go to the website for the center for consciousness medicine which is center for cnn dot com. My understanding is more and more resources will be available there in terms of road maps and a suggestions for those who are interested in considering becoming a therapist or guide with respect to psychic assisted therapies. There will be events. Blog posts and other materials tell people navigate the terrain related to training treatment research and so on and Very excited for you. And i'm excited for the center. So i would love to know if you have anything more to add on specifically the center for consciousness medicine. Is there anything that we haven't discussed that you'd like to. Yeah i'm just really excited about the creation offer central for conscious medicine and the team is really excellent. And you know we really inspired to spearhead this lounge because we feel that we can be creating a culture that's really high in level but also very collaborative so not not into being superior were into being collaborative and exchange ideas and sort of bring a color of culture into like. You said the world of medical research and treatments and education and various organizations. That are going out there. So we're really excited and we're grateful to be here with you today to be able to me as a representative of a funchal funder of a system to be To be here with you and talking about all this. It's always great fun to see you. And i'm thrilled that we were finally able to to have this conversation. People can find you. Online at france was born rod dot com center for dot com that that is the jumping off point for all these things will link to all the social on line in the show notes at teamed up log forward slash podcast or. Make it easy for people to find everything. Is there anything else. Francois's that you would like to add a request of the audience. Anything at all that you'd like to say before we wrap up this first conversation. There's so many millions of other topics that we could cover so he may do around to at some point but is there anything else for this round one that you would like to say before we close out. I'm really inspired by the movement in general. I'm marie inspired by my colleagues by. Everybody really fascinated by the field and the cross pollination that can happen and the audience being interested in all this and a choline this passion for health and transformation and growth and healing ourselves and the planet. So i'm really very passionate and pleased to be part of this movement and to continue putting brakes on the past two harmony. Thank you thank you so much. Thank you and To everybody listening once again the resources that we mentioned book consciousness medicine the center. Four conscious medicine center for him dot com. Everything also talked about the various figures the people various resources and so on won't all be linked to if you want to listen to some disorder and chaos music provide a few selections in the show notes as well tuned up four slash podcasts. Until next time be safe. Keep your mind open. Keep your heart open. Thanks for tuning in. Hey guys this. Is tim again. Just a few more things before you take off number one. This is five bullet friday. Do you want to get a short email from me. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me. Every friday that provides a little more soul of fun before the weekend and five hundred fridays. every short email where. I share the coolest things. I've found or that i've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that have discovered it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as i do. 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Tim this podcast. Episode is brought to you by helix. Sleep sleep is super important to me. In the last few years. I've come to conclude it is the end all be all that all good things. Good mood could performance. Everything seemed to stem from good sleep. So i've tried a lot to optimize enough tried pills and potions all sorts of different mattresses you name it and the last few years i've been sleeping on a he looks midnight. Lux mattress also have one in the guest. Bedroom and feedback from. France has always been fantastic. Something that they come into helix sleep has a quiz takes two minutes to complete that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you helix. There's a specific mattress for each and every body. That is your body also your taste. So let's say you see on your side like a super soft bed no problem or if you're back sleeper mattress that's this firms iraq. 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The Career Musician Ep. 50: Pantheon Podcast Network with Christian Swain & Jerry Danielsen

Pantheon

48:22 min | 1 year ago

The Career Musician Ep. 50: Pantheon Podcast Network with Christian Swain & Jerry Danielsen

"You're listening to the career musician podcast with Creator and host, No mad with twenty plus years of experience in the music industry. No mad has done just about everything to earn a living as a career musician from being music director to celebrity artists, playing iconic arenas and stadiums, composing for film and TV, and even playing your average local club gigs. He's done at all nomads. Mission is to empower musicians across the globe with strategies for a sustainable career while blasting stereotypes and to bring you tried and true wisdom from his colleagues in this. This crazy business. We call music welcome to the greer musician podcast with your host nomad on this episode I have Mr Christian Swain and Daniel Sin of the Pantheon podcast network of which the Corea musician is a member now wise Pantheon so important, because they are the first all music based podcast collective, and yes, they are responsible for bringing you this very podcast now Christian is the CEO and Jerry is the of engineering, and they both have extremely diverse and rich backgrounds in music, basically doing everything from singing, playing, guitar and various other. Composing Producing Engineering Cetera now. The episode prior to this with Jack, Pyatt is instrumental in bringing you Christian and Jerry from Pantheon. PODCASTS because. Is the one who connected the DOTS and linked us up as right. He referred me to Christian over at the Pantheon podcast network, and then shortly thereafter I became a member so once again, Ladies and gentlemen. It takes a village. It takes a team. I am grateful to Jack Pyatt Christian Jerry. Peter and everybody over at Pantheon, and I'm super stoked to be a member of their collective. This is actually gonNA go already editing. Okay? No, we're not. GOING IN I had. Awesome gentlemen sitting in front of me Christian Swain and Jerry Danielson Hey, and just so they know I'm Christian and I'm Jerry now. You have a voice i. Ville at. Nine, hundred twenty two. I love it so Christian. You the founder of Pantheon, podcast network solely, or was this a collective? It started with with an original podcast called rock and roll archaeology. granddaddy the the one that started it always by the way I love your voice 'cause now I, listened to the podcast so now having you in front of me I'm like Oh that's the guy. The guy that's. So kind of started with that and. then. I have a a writing partner that I work with Richard Evans Who is also a part of the should be a trio since the three of us all went to the same high school, and we've known each other for over forty years over forty. Okay, so that's how this. Years Old. You know what you must be really good at math. When these guys walked in the studio, we're hanging out and giving them little tour of nomads place and they started telling me their history starts on your history speaking like you're not here. and. I, was really had any. Guys No, no, don't tell me tell the listening. because. This is some good fodder. Okay, so continue forty years. We've got so. We went to high school together, but later when I started my own studio back in the mid eighties I had a twelve track. You know those things and his band recorded their. We were already friends. I was one of the only studios in town in Santa Clarita northern. He was in a competing band. Let's see your band was called. Busy signal right, yeah, and my band member. My Ban infrared. Remember okay all right, and then my now. My recording studios called busy signals studios because I was in a band called busy signal. I'd just carried on that name. Because at the time, we were known a little bit. You know, hold on a minute. Let's talk about the term busy signal for the listeners who may not know when? Nowadays. Busy housing is a busy signal. On landlines back in the day on the phone, you would get a business busy. Sounded like. A sound, and that meant that somebody was on the line, it was disengaged. You had to wait for them to hang up before you could try to just call again because you know. It was a landline well. Double Fast. Do you remember that? When I went being bay band was a two calls on. It was the switch board was filled, and you had to wait and come back and if you left your phone off the hook off. Here! Because, he was just engaged very loudly. Now this is so you guys came out on a horse and buggy out. Following the Missouri trail, thank you. Kit Carson. The strings and strings. I love that. We came in the nylon. Simply so. Hey. At least we got classical right. Technology has evolved faster than any one of us can hope to every. Day Right now I want to say something about podcasts being that you, the founder, and then I want to explain Pantheon Yeah. But back in early two thousands, when the iphone first came out, was two thousand and five seven, okay seven, I was into podcast back that nobody knew what the hell they were true, so I was listening to podcasts about This is like almost Adam. Curry and orgin chapter on my life was listening to financial stuff. To motivational stuff or just, whatever and then? It. Kind of fell fell off my radar. And then when I started seeing a need for what I'm doing here with the career musician, and that was probably about two thousand ten. I'm sorry, no two thousand, thirteen fourteen, so another seven or so years later then I really got into it, but we have seen the podcast the evolution of the podcast. If you will yeah right right off course, yeah, it's turned into something that. was. Languishing Under apple's only guidance, that's right which was very little guidance at that and it. Really kind of made its splash with cereal if you remember that podcast. And that's when all of a sudden people were downloading it. A million times and kind of made you know Media News, and and that's kind of what was the original inspiration for me to say wow, I think I can make a podcast I'm sure being million others or actually now seven hundred thousand different podcasts out there so at least seven, hundred, thousand, different seven hundred different yeah, and they say seven, hundred, seven, hundred, eight, hundred thousand that. Yeah and because remember it's mostly apple and most apple users are iphones and mostly in the United States, so most of the rest of the world actually uses. Google or The android system, and now podcasting has switched over to that got fifty different platforms beyond apple now hosts of podcasts and. You know so. It's turned into a bit of a more of a of a business. Now it's beginning to professionalize I. Love It, so hold on I, want to get some of these statistics right, so you said seven eight hundred thousand different podcasts that we know of in the US, and you said fifty different podcasting platform fifty roughly. Yeah, yeah, and that means like spotify stitcher overcast Pandora Law. Blueberry or blue was another one. That destroy distribution. That's like a Lipson and a blueberry. Being. You can also download all kinds of different podcasts players. Yeah, yeah, okay, so I want. You can listen to podcasts on your computers. I WANNA delineate some of this. For those listeners who maybe fascinated with it or a new to the game or even like myself I'm still learning. I'm so glad that we joined forces that you took me on the spot. I love being very happy to have you as part of the Pantheon podcast. Thank you because pod FAM-. We should say. Hey. You Got pod Fan. I've learned so much in the in the. Handful of months I've been with you. Guys and I'm learning more so talk about that the delineation between. PODCAST publishing system that broadcast podcast broadcast them. Versus podcast hosts site. Yeah, so the host hosts are Lipson. Blueberry Bean, and of course the one that we use which is magazine which I love by the we just happen to think it's the best and Jeremy and so that. That creates the RSS feed then goes out to the platforms of which apple is a platform. Okay, so they just were the original one of. The original thing. Dan provided because it's. Still and growing. It's a growing pains in there. And now people are GonNa grow even more I mean. It's starting to become sort of you still have to explain to some people what? Is, and then somebody because you have a podcast. They're not all created equal. If somebody started a podcast a podcast. They'd have five listeners right, so it takes a long time and a lot. We're talking. Fifty thousand a month. You know and that's where Pantheon living now wearing those numbers. Yeah, yes, so we. Actually, we just hit one hundred and fifty thousand downloads last month and We are. We've been making double digit growth a for six months now. Yeah so and it's a lot of. It's because of megaphone. It is the let's go back a little bit to the Pantheon. How it came, please you mentioned the founder and Yeah I created rock geology with my buddy, of Richard Evans and we put that together, and then we brought in a business partner, and that's Peter Fairly old I was just GonNa say Peter is the missing link yeah, yeah and so. Peter comes at it from a business standpoint. And you know he understands. The APPS All that blogging before that how Internet travel actually works how to make money on it and things like that, so Peter came on actually started as a marketing. You know we I brought him on as as marketing guy. And then he became business partners so pantheon media because it was originally rock and roll archaeology based on your shirt Joel. Show which? Folks you have to check out I, love the show, thank. It's still cool music history at its best. It is a complete telling of the history of rock and roll, culture and technology, and how it came together and wove and created a feedback loop with the society from postwar to the end of the century, and maybe a little into the two thousand. Jerry and I argue about this all the time that when when it ends, but but it is. We are in a different story now. I always felt like well now. It's kind of a complete. Complete story that this music will continue on for hundreds of years I mean I think we'd all agree right now that the Beatles and moats art kind of fit together, they end five hundred years from now. People talked about McCartney and Lennon. Just as they do about Wolfgang I agree so so I wanted to both the same age when they did all their masterpiece. That is true that is true service fair young, and so we're. The Beatles were all. They broke up by that Sunday thirty. Thirty five I think but but they so wanted to tell that, and then out of that got successful, but it takes us a long time to make each episode, and so we started getting feedback from our fans. Hey. Can you do something else and I said well. Yeah, let's. We can do some other shows, so we put the interview. Show the hold on. Let me interject quick so when you say take a long time for each episode. How long three to six months? For an episode Jefferson because you in. Writing Production when I listened to it. I'm like how do these guys do this? It's so meticulous. Okay, then that's. Okay over five years. We've been working at it. Eighteen episodes are out one more in one thousand nine is being worked on right now and where we're at about one thousand, nine, hundred, sixty nine just to give you an idea is. Still a long way to go so okay so sorry. Okay so so in the interim for a fast paced culture you created. We created A couple of recap shows to start with. We did. HBO's Vinyl Martin Scorsese and Mick Jagger's. Attempted creating a rock and roll identity television one season love that show very dense, very dense, very dense, but it lots of drug. Yeah it. Just I don't know it had its issues. I can see why it failed. And then we did Rotich showtime. Showtimes, roadies that was Cameron Crowe's that also last only one year, and then we created a couple of other shows. We call the original six. It's rock and roll. Archeology digs in rock. Real Rock, which is about to rock and roll movies. The Rock and roll librarian was shelley, Sorenson and then we brought on the muses, which was show out of Toronto. We both ended up on a CBC Canadian Broadcast Company show about Elvis. It was Elvis's birthday, so they did they did show, and they used a little of our stuff, and they let us little of their stuff. And we hooked up. We brought on. That was our first sort of contract did show that was done? But then we help them kind of improve and create sound quality and things like that. Then we brought on the vinyl snap. That was the original six, so we lived with that until about two years ago, we also went through an engineering change. We originally were working with an engineer up in San Francisco and that didn't work out and. I was kind of like What should I do and my writing partner? Richard says you should talk to Jerry and I was like. Oh, you should like it's almost. Exact come on! Guy Talk do you like that? Now for long. So we. Brought Jerry on and sure enough immediately. You know what we were doing. It all kind of worked, and that was April two thousand sixteen. Around almost four years. going on for years. That's forty and four. Yeah, already four and then so. In the last year or so, we started realizing we'll really. where the juice is is in the network of because there was a lot of cross pollination that was going on between the different shows. We could see that that was an advantage. We felt that if we could create a music only network podcast network out there, it's a vertical market that was separate ours ourselves from the competition which are general podcast companies. They basically make podcast for everything Karma drama self held. As exercise rambles yes. That's a wrong idea. I, said in the. Thought of myself as a contract. How do I deal with that? How do I work with that well and I've dealt with that in my my my my old business for years, and really you want to work with somebody who knows your business intimately so if I come and walk in and go well. I'm podcast to accompany and I make all kinds of podcast to a musician or music company. They go okay. That's great whereas I. Walk in, Go. No, my focus is you. All I do is music and we felt that that would be a very. Forget the first call we had it was you. Peter and Myself Christian Peter and myself. And sorry not to leave your device so. You came in later. But I I looked at my wife after I. got the phone I was a babe just. This weird! It feels surreal. It feels too good to be true. It's not like you go. Let's let me just say it's not like you. Guys are paying me. It's not even saying hey, sign here. Make Rich. No, it's not, but it's a synergy That's what you just said that is. You can't pay for now so when you guys give me your pitch, quote, unquote. You almost didn't even have to pitch because I was like I'm in. Yeah, this is this is crazy. What's the I. Think you actually look? Guys! Hey, we're in the music business. Yeah. So tiny! Why gives you? Fifteen hundred dollars. Yeah, I'll get you banned everywhere. Followers Part of Yeah Oh man, so I was. So okay. I love that concept now. Tell me this because I put it at the end of each of my episodes that we are the only music. One hundred percent music based hot cast network. Yeah, is that still true? We are without doubt. The largest music only podcasts okay work. I haven't seen a music only podcast network out there. There is a competitor that will remain nameless, but they they also have culture shows and culture. Music! Culture around a music. You know like a pot show, politics and music, and they're cool, and and we love them to death in there and we're. We're actually We keep in touch and talk and that's. Because we all. We prove each other's case for the need out there in in the world, but they come at it from a very different standpoint they come from A. From a jam ban. Kinda world so it's kind of a bottom up sort of thing we come at it from music in general so top top down. This is the way I think about him. Yeah, I like that. I like that that's fantastic. Yeah, worrying to all kinds of me personally I love all music and carry identify with that I'm the same way Jerry. I'm sure you seem like you're. Yeah by the way I was listening to Jerry. Jam On fretless. Bass over here, you killing it Bro. Shredding Away? Nice man all right so now let's go back to the history about you guys so forty years ago, you met. Well town well Santa Clarita Valley at that's. Very small isolated community. Community mountains that separate you from. The call on the edge of LA. We grew probably fifty thousand people, and now it's like two hundred twenty thousand people. Yeah, when when I moved up there from Orange County when I was in high school, and I told my parents. There's no fucking way moving into to the country unless you buy me a horse. No. But you Jerry. To me worse, it felt like to me like I was moving to the rural. The rural I imagine you. Honest with you I consider that. My hometown of you know even though I at fantastic, it went to school there for the last year, and my parents moved there. I was in junior. High Eighth Grade didn't have a lot of say because you're near eighth grade. What you're thirteen or something I couldn't say much about it. There were. They're just moving there. Just so I felt up rooted from North Hollywood Studio City, where which is where we're all the quote unquote action going on Yeah Yeah. Then I I grew roots there and I went to junior high. became the norm people. Yeah, we'll tell them what your mom used to. My mom used to switchboard operator at a musicians answering service. Yeah, back when the wrecking crew all day. Came up in one of the interviews with how? How how tell you about Arlyn's defend? My mother worked there as a as a come on operator for. WHO's lose that and she used to talk to these people at she used later told me when I was trying to get somewhere in music as a teenager I wish I. Still Work there, she. You're saying you're in. Yeah. I'm going to expand this even more so tell me about your son. Okay, so we're we're jumping. Time, but you're still family oriented career musician do. Your family. Thoroughbred families. Time musician. Recording engineer. And composer do more composing for TV and film. That's amazing laying out. But I do play out live and I, did I've done musical theater lately. Last year we had a play going on in in Ohio. Cleveland Ohio. Now writing a new theatre peace with this other guy in meeting with tomorrow, and then there's a feature film I'm writing later this year. I'm writing the music. And it'll be my fourth or fifth of those and music, but then so then. In my early twenties, I married the singer of my band. Yeah, always stay. Shouldn't have done it. Hey, I'm married to the singer in my band. Cliche. I'm? Different okay, so we have this Sean Danielsen okay, so he went on, and by the time he was nineteen. He got pre-production deal and got signed to a major label Inner Java. Atlantic Smile Empty Soul Mate had gold records, and even platinum and all over the radio and everything. And they have a huge following last year. They had thirty million streams on spotify. Smile. Empty Soul and you can find them online. Okay! Yeah and there's videos. Music video there's a couple years ago and he's my son. That's amazing, Dude. You're looking it up right now, Slough! diesels there are three different words, but they're violent. I. Love it man. That is so cool, so it's all in the family here they are yeah, here's my son. That's your son. He's the songwriter. Singer and there's Bass and drums, and there's a trio mazing. Bro, wool Kudos to you. That is so awesome and you. Did you meet him when he was very young? I don't remember he was. Around when he rugrats. He's kid wasn't big enough to guitar making me go I have. Always had a home studio so by the time he was, so you're producing his album like nine years old. But he's writing. Like thirteen, he formed his own idea. He called it Rhesus Monkey, and he played the drums guitar, and the Bass, and did the singing, and it was these cute little song, but for thirteen hours. We always had the Taliban. He's a good songwriter. Yeah! He's probably in the world of touring bands. You know he's certainly more well known than I am. Very, Great. Binge previous seasons of the career musician podcast and subscribe for all new episodes. Follow, the career musician on instagram and facebook. I'm Jerry. Danielson from busy signal studios in. You're listening to the career musician podcast with my incredible new friend nomad. Hey. This is Christian Swain. The CEO of Pantheon podcasts and I am a career musician. So Jerry you have literally family little family lineage of career musicians. Basically. You're signing yourself and your mom was involved. Yes I. Mean Look. She was in the music business at. If you consider that being absolutely look being yes, let's board operator musicians answering service so. But she's she's a rounded. She's in the scene. You know, look you talk about the wrecking crew, those with the cats back into day, so she was involved now, Kristen. Let's talk about your musical lineage and how that started. So I. Don't have a lot of family familial musical. Say! Usually so some some are. Involved in music, basically I moved around a lot. My parents moved around a Lotta went to five different high schools. Fellow nomad I am a nomad. Down with it. After the third high school, so look. I was always intensely interested in music and movies in art and Anything like that. That's just that is where where my background is I acted in plays from the time I was in fourth grade all through high school and that, but I heard. That musicians actually get laid even more so than the football players and thought wow. Maybe, I should think about that. I I think I could do that. He, knew what what what what I see on. I think. This is very much somebody who is an entertainer and out, and and very very open about themselves, and that's me so I started you know just like I knew what I was doing, and and so here's the interesting story, so the third high school. I came in on the first day. Literally the first day and somebody comes up to me and says hey, you're new guy, right and I said Yeah. What do you do and you said and this was? This is where the fork in the road is, and I thought. I'm a singer in rock. I'd never fucking done that I life. Other than jumping around on a bed and pretending and he goes well guess what I know a ban that's looking for a singer. By that afternoon. Ready already because I have a very big egos. No that's not me. Like sure I can fucking do whatever. I like that proactive. Yeah, so by that afternoon I had a audition for you know a sixteen seventeen year olds, rock bands in Boston and there was the rock band, and that's how it started I saw. This thing has never sang before my life, but I could act like i. knew what I was doing that part. Of the continent com, Frontman part rock yeah. Oh Yeah. Was No, Bravo see. That's the difference between onstage performance and that kind of arena, and versus like a studio musician. If you go in the studio and you don't know what the hell you're doing, you're fucked. Oh, you are so fucking. Chris the guys, sore guys and Gals in the session with you can smell it. Yeah, they're like. You're dead meat. And the. Dollar time producer. That's the difference. I had to learn the singing part and I put a Lotta time and effort into it took a lot of lessons in that sort of stuff, but I did, and I think I did pretty good when I by the time I got in my twenties and We had a band that I thought was pretty good We we. We chased the record. business. in the eighties headlined Of clubs down there whiskey, Gogo Okay Roxy. And troubadour, and that sort of stuff so. Busy signal and your. Yeah we arrivals in some ways and your band was again. My Band was. We were kind of like a funk rock. SORTA thing with a little bit of a progressive sort of thing we were. They were very. Very. Doing the Roxie in the yet. Yeah, right? So you guys are running into each other, oh. Yeah, yeah, mostly mostly putting up posters back in the day. That was what you did. You. Hollywood the weeks before because. A place right, they give you a one hundred six thousand dollars, USD you selling for at least ten dollars? You make your money back yourself for fifteen. You make five hundred dollars this sort of thing. So you guys follow you guys did that. We did all that. Nine, hundred ninety one yeah. And then I actually I left I turned thirty I turned thirty and nine, hundred, ninety, one and I said I got. This thing trust, rock and Roll Roller Thurs, rock and rollers for kids says. Wait, I'm still doing it then how? Come back because never leaves your blood, right? It's. I did not play at all. Levels you. I was in tech I always had. Like some of my roommates, who were willing to sleep on the floor? I have a level of comfort. Nice always had a day job and so I, did a day job and I'd play at night and I'd suffer in do that and then. Took my day job. Serious and I went into tech. I started a couple of businesses. Two Thousand, seven. I had a business that I sold. I made some money. Contract and then by two thousand fourteen I was like I hate this job I quit. And I said well Jeez, what what am I going to do? And I thought I don't have made another company to do for TAC and I was like I. Don't WanNa do that. You could have yeah, and and I said you know this podcasting music, my interest in history I think I can combine those things and create something that will make me happier, and and hopefully some some money, and so when you I'm totally going to throw a curve when you hit that little baritone edge that you just hit you remind me of Casey Kasem Oh. I've radio boy. You Remember Casey case, of course, of course we do the top of the parts with. Okay so so tack now. Got Mundane. Yes, you got an podcasting, but but let's talk about the milk tech to podcasting, and of course so that's why I guess what I said. I think it's perfect, but let's talk about the realities of this. Okay because I always thought that people who are like. Tech Guy and I sold my company, and I made this millions of dollars, and they're not do this. Oh, yeah, now I do this. It's like wow, do you make it sound so easy? Boil it down a little bit. How do you develop a company? Sell it and then start in the podcasting and. And like not have any. Kind of idea of what this could potentially turn into. Did you have a business plan? Did you have goals? Did you write it down? Did you have a vision or was this happenstance? How much happenstance? How pragmatic planning? Wow! That's a great question so? I think you know it was. It was sort of impulsive to start with. That's where I'm getting sense of like well. I don't want to do that. Okay, so what if I did this? Let's see what I can do with it now because I come from an entrepreneurial background. Good. You know that you know starting from scratch number one. I felt that the industry itself. was you know it wasn't professionalize? It wasn't closed. It was low buried entry so I could I knew I could make a splash before the wave crashed. Is the is the key and again you know you do what you love right? So I I just couldn't get music of my soul I tried I. Literally Tried for ten years I was like no. I believe you go get it. On my demo? was like. I don't do that anymore. Finally. Somebody convinced me to get back into it, and then I. I'm bad that way because mean once it was like. They said Oh. Let's do this and I tried some stuff and they were like well great. What have we did a ban? I said okay well. What if we did an acoustic duo? So we start with acoustic trio, and then after a month of the guitar player came, and said you know these songs would be better if we had a band, said okay, let's get a band. On the kind of guy. Thousand. Ban. Ban and that sort of thing and I've been in this band tinman for fifteen years now, which is a cover band in northern, California? We play all over Northern California lots of private parties. Lots of I love that sorta stuff I love so music dot net. Tim Uses done that, so is that your moonlighting? Yeah, that's my moonlighting gig yeah. We do about twenty to thirty gigs a year which keeps it out of making it a fulltime job and we we. Do well. That's you with the vest belting it out I love it. Man See so we always coming back to bands. We have smile empty soul. We have tin man I mean. I love it. Okay, so so you're back in it now now. You're doing best of both worlds. Yeah, at the at the time I was doing. My my sales. Company during the day, and on the weekends on playing music of the last five or six years of with with with with with tech. And then. You know I said. Do I really want to go back into that and I felt you know. I started in tech in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, six, which was the very beginning of right, and I followed it through I started in fiber optics than physical infrastructure, then went into data, centers and enterprise. Wow, all kinds of stuff like that, Jerry. He makes us like Sam. Guy Smart over here. What I. G Minor. Guitar player. Six on it. So I just I couldn't get him. Out There in. And I have to do something about it. And I felt like the podcast sight of things and to talk about music, and the love of that in the passion that comes along with that and knowing other folks have exactly the same thing of whether they are actual players, or you know an audience and people who just love it. That's it doesn't matter. It's the same feeling that you know I. I. Know Plenty of people that don't play a lick, but they got way more concerts than I do because they need. That buzz is not a trip. It seems like the people who aren't necessarily. Players quote unquote. Go to all the show. Thank God for them because we don't. Off In show to go to a practice versions composed. We gotTA rehearse. We've got to produce gotTa do all this shit like if you say to us, we gotTA show. Here's the here's the one liner and just use it on one of my quotes. How do you get a musician to complain? Give them a GIG. Go to. Here Hockey getting Qatar player to stop playing. Music Charts. Difference won't you cut it. Ever, when you cut a drummer and half versus onion. The drummer doesn't make you cry. Nobody cries when. You. Call musician with a girlfriend. unemploy homeless. trombone player with a pager or beeper. And optimist, he got a banjo. Of course. There's always the. What's what's a musician. You know four. Four members in a drummer. Horn, Bass player I've heard that one. Of the Drummer's best friends musicians. Interesting. how the knocking speeds up. I know those drummers. Man. This is a good time all right so then so then we land on the Pantheon podcast. Let's go out with that because like I said, I am happy. Well elated to be a member of the Pantheon podcast family, the pod Fam-, and actually I hit you up on slack because that was a slack, right? I was like Oh. That's our management tool. Right I mean I was afraid that. You guys were going to write me off because I hadn't released a new season season. Legally, Senate right you. CHECKED WITH Like. I'm working on season. Three and I kid you not I went to Pantheon podcast. The website just to make sure I was still. Thank God. Still I still see the blue. The Blue Safe. But I mean so. What's the future because we we all the three of us just as we deduced so intelligently. We don't know what the future holds. But with podcasting as it were. What is this podcast coming out? This one I don't know good question. will be this year. Thank God twenty. December fifteen and It'll be twenty three. It'll be like in the next literally four to six weeks at most okay. Okay, okay so. The first thing that we did was so we developed a a network of thirty two shows at this point and still growing. We're making double digit. Growth, downloads or streams a month over month for the last six months. and we are engaging with advertisers and aggregate irs now to develop an advertising strategy for our podcast. We are developing a live show in various cities. Throw in twenty, twenty and twenty twenty one. We'll talk about that later. He involved, you are going to be all. We are contracting with. music. Entities to develop podcasts for them. Some very large names will remain anonymous at this. Okay, and understand and here's the big announcement. Yes, we do a complete suite of of production services, soup-to-nuts or all cart, and the big announcement is that we are going to be the first podcast company in the world to? Launch a HD podcast or high definition audio in podcasting. Okay, as we're talking on SM, Fifty Eight's. So, how are we GONNA do this Guy's? Taking your recording on pro tools right, so it's a it's what what are you using? Forty, four, Forty, eight, twenty, four, Forty Eight, so you twenty, four forty eight, so by the time you bounce this sucker down to an MP three. The quality does get reduced. An MP3 just doesn't sound as good so the high definition stuff maintained. If you make a wave file at the highest, the same Deborah. Reward audited and with the. CDs It had to be reduced to sixteen forty four six. Leave this way and then just have it be streaming with the highest possible audio quality, and there is a difference between. An MP three now, can I? Can Upload My. Wave File. Way We will demand your wave. And then people would still have option Gal. Three, but there's. Of Ear at all, you'll hear the. Right now compressed. Ask you this though. Is that going to create a caveat for downloading? So will that people in other words if you download a wave file a an hour, long file versus an hour, long MP3. There's a difference in storage the up, but that's the key, so the cost of storage has reduced. Tried to this point, so there's all kind of starts with oh now. I'm going to give up a name Neil Young. Has Been Fighting this battle for forty years and how it all came about is through through Neil. He kind of Said Hey, can you guys to high definition podcasting? We said. Well, let's see and we worked with a technology company That was able to work with us and say yeah, we we can do that. They're already doing it on the music space. In fact, Amazon has announced that all of their music streaming will be available in high definition and. We felt that we can provide the same services to to podcasting. Think that's amazing. So that's that's the. That's the big the big thing. Sick in twenty twenty. Wow, I! Love it all right well for all the cats who couldn't be here Richard Peter. We love you guys. So much for being involved I love you too guys. You like my new best friends. This is so awesome I mean immediately walked in door. We hit it off. Yeah, so wow, here's too much success same here We We are really happy to have the career musicians part of the Pantheon pod Fan and we look forward to season three coming up here a which we apparently are going to be your. By the way it's launching two weeks from today. It's launching on Monday march second so two weeks from today now, Pantheon, where can everybody find Pantheon Okay so obviously you can find it on any of the pod casting platforms. Out there and then you know you can find us online at Pantheon PODCAST DOT com. You can find us at facebook you know on Pantheon podcasts I think on twitter twitter. It's Pantheon pods and on twitter I think we discovered. It's our in our archaeology your. Name on there onto a we. We see that twitter and facebook gets the most sort of action. Social Media Wise across a given the demographics that except seems to work best for you are I G as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, so fantastic guys, you rain! Thanks, man! Thanks for having us. The goal of the career musician podcast is to provide valuable insight aimed at supporting working musicians. Please show your support by listening downloading subscribing sharing liking and leaving review. This is the career musician podcast with your host nomad. Just. Bad? Songs, one man! In this. Hey this. Host and creator of the career musician podcast and I am thoroughly stoked to be an official member of the Pantheon podcast network, pan. The podcast network is the first of its kind as an all music based podcast collective. Please be sure to check us out at Pantheon PODCAST DOT COM for more INFO. Hello everybody I'm kyle and I met you and we are from audio judo. The music discovery podcast curious about new music or WANNA. Learn something new about old music and start right here with us. Here's a little sample the what we do. Then tonight we are talking about pink Floyd's a momentary lapse of reason led Zeppelin's houses of the holy. Matthew and the Atlas Hunky Dory by David Vote Yes. We are awakened. My Love by childish Gambino Boston by the Band Bosto-. Yeah I for sure was never cool enough to Liz Smith. Like I feel like there was like this weird entry fee that you had to pay in coolness. We've seen the movie less than zero. Yes, costs about that okay good. Today, we have a very special interview with a legendary singer fish. How you doing fish? To fake how? Got Yeah just got scapegoat from Rodney volunteering. Yup. One of our listeners recently wrote to me and said that he was referring to you and I said I like the cantankerous Gen. xer meets a less grumpy millennial thing you guys have. Let's it. If you lake to mike the Little sampling audio judo there, please give us a listen and if he loved music, come check us out at audio judo dot com. Wherever PODCASTS OUR PODCAST?

Jack Pyatt Christian Jerry Richard Peter partner spotify founder facebook Jerry Danielson Mr Christian Swain Richard Evans CEO Kit Carson Missouri apple engineer Beatles Santa Clarita director Ville twitter Lipson
What If? Episode 1 Recap & Review with Richard Nebens

That Superhero Thing presents The Loki Takeover

1:25:17 hr | 2 months ago

What If? Episode 1 Recap & Review with Richard Nebens

"And welcome not superhero thing. Podcast discuss the latest superhero comic book movies and tv shows. I mean who's nick and joining me as always is my co host anthony. How right not see. But good paul three activists that should we out now no. Let's just leave it so we've got an exciting episode because we've got a guest on the show today not not doing an interview with him. We are doing the full breakdown with richard devon's from the direct. So we'll add richard on a little bit later on this week show. We'll be breaking down all the latest comic book. Movie news include in a potential director for that pool three. The suicide squads really lackluster box office. Performance it's not. It's not them well to be fair. And whether or not hugh jackman will be bringing his clothes out of retirement to play wolverine again. Spoilers no spoilers on the news then be giving you a full review on recap of wassef episode episode episode. One even eh preserve nine episode with richard evans. Before discussing your thoughts and theories in this week's pod funds assemble. Which can i just say is a massive padron resemble this week. We anthony is anthony's pumpkin because he's gonna have to talk for like six hours because we've had ceremony people get into about so thank. You are already you for my dissertation. This is also your spoiler. Warning that will be spoilers speculation throughout episode. If you'd like to skip ahead to the wife review two assemble will timestamps stumps in the description. So news then deadpool. Three director potentially revealed so sean levies free guy is currently and rave reviews. I don't see any. I've not seen it yet. Apparently it's really good. It's really all the reviews brilliance so with it being doing so. Well it's no surprise. Really that talk tend to sean love. His next project. So he was interviewed by inverse. And they asked him if he could be potentially walk for deadpool three directors job or izzy for the director's job and massive grip. I won't go through the whole thing. Basically he said. I'm going to mostly skirt that question which might be an answer in itself. I'll answer the last part of. Which is i'm a fan. I'm a fan of that pool like a massive fund and i'm a fan of the marvel universe so that's kind of like i'm not allowed to say isn't it was you don't read it. Thought which is essentially means. Yeah which kind of mejet or at least he's talking about because if it wasn't too matter water said but if i am i'm not allowed to say so. Yeah exactly it's kind of like. Yeah i was gonna say like those but we just blob. Non answer answer is kind of like it's not a great answer non-answer poland given an answer spiderman was in space as a pretty pretty much a given so i'll be good is directed what he's done guy. He directed night the museum episode of stranger things as well could store. That's quite a mixed. It is back is what which is good because it shows that he can do different tones. Feel it is. But i feel like it's all kind of got the same tone to like a bit like stranger. Things is nights at the museum combined. Stranger things like they've all got like everything the links to midnight tash off in a no. No what. I'm trying to a car. And i get hit steve. Naomi wax in the dark humor element to them things. Those as well strange thing. It's not serious horror that he can do the human. It's going to be comedic as well. Yeah as if as if upon there will then go into stranger things for new. That's isn't actually comic for this. I thought you're saying now. I'm so sorry i'm just having you segue. I do apologize. Gone crock on. It was well. Good weldon you. Jr is what you can't wait to this iconic for this. I'm actually really that. We've got to wait till next year though. Hopefully it's january. Yeah born they've always done specific dates seventy so it depends where it's around like a holiday christmas halloween fourth of july so again earlier in the year. He's valentine's day easter. Let's go with easter. We'll start with the middle of duet. We're gonna have another series. We'll have to work in the air. So we're gonna have to go east. Let's be honest. Never story was the best part of it was it was the best part of any of them any other strange things so we've got some too because they released a sneak peek. I say some new footage we got to though but yeah there's not really much. It's mostly like clip from reality guy. I thought it was gonna be the. Because i've seen click with now. Now am digging digging russia. show this one. It's like really really tiny snippets. Mostly old footage. But there's two shot that i picked up so there's warm with eleven getting of looks kidnapped by two dudes and suits and then there's another one of hopper bold hopper with a flame thrower yes assessments. And so i. I can't wait for you. Said it needs us that we need to update though 'cause i call wave comic book for eleven basically a superhero powers yet with we'll cover excellent to talk about more answer but more news on mobius news that has been delayed till twenty twenty two. We already bought even had been pushed back. The director daniel espinosa has recently given an interview to movies iron when he was asked what it was like stepping onset of a marvel movie ever. I marvel movie. He spoiled something he said. When you walk around that the recording just looked at looks just like swedish production but then when you look at the schedule and renamed like michael keaton. Who knows an jared leto. I'm tom hardy and very exciting. So it's a good job is not a problem alva because he'd be dead now even shaath you call you call fishes exactly so it looks like it. Looks like it's going to be making a issue in a moebius tibet. She'll be more excited about it. I'm not really excited about mobile. I why nine watched the tv series. Because like i grew with spiderman. Yeah that was my main superhero thing. That i watched and i remember vividly. The storylines with moebius idea governs an. I loved that. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. I'm so i. I'm quite excited to see what they do with this. I'm from the at bats. I'm actually quite looking forward to it. Controversial may for. I i am. My biggest concern is not a massive. I'll be honest. Also i just feel like the fact. That michael qian's in it but it's not an emc you. He's just conquer that i'm really like an organization. Don't like the fact that continuity is my big thing and it just goes against continuity of michael keaton and not being part of the mc. It was just too confusing. But then comes. I know we've got that and our boys. Yeah hopefully i'm going to get proven wrong. I don't wanna be it's going to be moving on. Then we have found out this week that there is a sequel to chronicle in the work and interview with forbes the producer of jungle cruise said. That is an early developments twenty twentieth century studios basically disney. Now on. it's gonna be set ten years after the original but this time it's going to be centered around a female group. I won't cuyahoga. We're going to get the power's probably still going to be found footage. I liked chronicle. I liked it. I really thought it was really good. It could have been just as good without the found footage elements. I think it was just away from it. I think it was decent. But i don't think it necessarily needed that. Found footage element. I think it was just a good. It was a good story. When chronicle came out though the found footage thing was quite popular paranormal activity and all that so activity klay the field. All of that failed. Yeah so i. I quite like that. I think it's a big difference and it's not done as often. Do not think now though the the found footage thing isn't really a thing anymore they maybe need to stay clear of it. I do think it's not a thing and that's why you should it. Yeah raleigh what. No one else is doing at the time. Why maybe chronicle. I mean i enjoyed it. I don't really get the impression it was like a massive box office hit. And maybe maybe because it was so much found footage out at the time. Maybe it won't be lost amongst on going to really get found footage fatigue if that's if that's a word but you know what i mean. It was like say stuff. Yeah i'm excited for that. I think it'd be really good suicide squad box office then so it was going really well. It's set a new record for an r. rated thursday night preview since the pandemic things. Four million night previews in tax but then only managed to increase the by two twenty six and a half million by the end of the weekend and the budget was one hundred. Five mil so open. We can only twenty six and a half mil. And i think they were expecting their five million the threw it out on. Hbo batman either as well because people say bad. It hasn't that people people known son this people on taken into consideration we've just had a pandemic and as much as we are trying to get back to normal. There are people who are uncomfortable. Guidance it in in a room with two hundred other people watching a film yet. Don't wanna day on each to their own. You know i'm happy to hear back in and do that. Because i've missed it. Yeah i love to win. It's not everyone's potato now and if it's there at the home comfort on hbo. Max people are going to stay at home and watch things spend and it's a family of four fifteen to twenty quid easily to be going to watch it in the cinema when you can watch it for free but you rages subscription. Yeah yeah avenue and apparently it did really well. According to some of the figures have been released its estimated the two point eight million people viewed it in the opening weekend chambal view then at the two point foale realize but people still saying it's been it's bombed by i. It's done two point. Eight million views on eight bear marks. It was a fantastic film. I really enjoyed it. I really only seen it once. We don't have. Hbo max and the diety again again to be perfect ball. it's i've really enjoyed. I think really whoop this doesn't affect anything regarding a sequel or james future or anything like that because it did really well in keeping then with with the sears. Degree idris elba. We found out what yourselves next projects going to be. Anthony's only told them about minutes ago. So alva- has revealed through a promo on twitter. That he's going to be voice in you wouldn't have you guessed it. Never put them two together. I i was like what. But then the more i think that the moral yes this is going to be good ages. Offers knuckle comb on. It's going to be way but it's go right. So i'm a bit split because i've time to like let it sit there and marinade for half an hour. Yeah okay. I didn't like jungle book with the in jungle. Book was john book. Was he in the disney one. Because we to the one that i watched your business areas in the one on new giving the disneyland johnson as much i think it was. It was joke right. The best describe it as she economy sounded like a pissed off britain apple. Yeah it didn't sound like the king of the jungle that should be feed by many joe sounded grown. Told like it just wasn't it didn't fit for me and he's got powerful voice on could do cinna stanton talk really. Well i think yeah. Pretty just did not didn't come across to know whether he was told to hold back a bit or what but it was. I felt let down by up. Because as a kid she con scattered the hell outta me. I'm just disappointed so just do bad. Please knuckles i think because we we'll talk about that when we go into when we go into f just because an actor is an amazing actor. Onscreen does not always translate to actually voice actors as we've seen him but as soon as the casting wife i didn't think we're we're great even to the brilliant the and that would be my concern as well adrian. Alba is a great actor brilliant board. Yeah i'm not convinced he's going to do particularly well with voice over but again hopefully hopefully prove wrong. I'm just. I think it's just a really really good call. Get i think. I is going to be interesting of mc you news then sharon carter apparently will be making the pretty soon movie site. The ronin is reporting that. Emily van camp over tens of the role in mood night which is due out early next year. We think it's not known if it's going to be cameo or whether it's going to be more substantial role didn't really sort of. I mean she was. She was in law fe like the character. Arc was very predictable. I feel like it was predictable and disappointing to be honest. I don't think they took was the powerbroker the from the start. Hopefully they've got more planned for because she's a good card and she's just been so she got a little bit more green time in. Yeah fogleman soldier bush's just good actress. Y'all live on counter. I really liked. Or whatever i have just said com- emily van camp. She's just she's just not really been given an opportunity to shine. Mca hopefully this is going to be shown. Now that we know who she is dell put her in the. Yeah yeah now. I don't know what the ever watched and it was cheesy as her item that you would say like revenge. Yeah yeah i think on my order first episode thinking. What's this like. She got quite dark at times. And i quite liked it. And so if that got explored more like she could be a really good villain so just from that. I think she could play well. Hopefully hopefully she'll be given given an opportunity spiderman way home news kind of first news. Is this still new trailer. Where hundred nineteen days away. I think record on this not them keeping count but there's no not long ago. We still nagoya. That were rumors of the tenth of august because it was the end this bottom week anthea. We still not holiday. That was a really good. He's a went on twitter yesterday saying that the trend is going to be released on the show. Got the major. Pick to open while like great the out when they yet decent. It's not really coming through there. Might deborah a doctor. The has been some mitch on amazon by the direct. Lots of shots of spidey and doctor strange including the magic power blocking gold suits but still new sign of any of this vitamin stillness on toby still sign of under. Sohn's get stressed. The i mean to right. Tom hall in grace benedict watches. Doctor strange great. We should be spoiled for. I'll be disappointed if i'm still convinced it's happening. I am book the closer we got. The the feeling is like not me. I'm really trying not to get me hope. And no i'm gonna love the film them a what bought. I really think they're going to be in it. Got to be oven. Gotta be please please please. Hopefully hugh jackman then apparently not come back as wolverine maybe. He's done some promo for his new movie remnant. Reminiscence think it's called since we watched the trailer when we went to what she was looks. Laura ingraham ingratiate. Yeah i remember now. So he's in a few. It didn't really know what it was about like. I've watched the trailer three times and still the north about so he did didn't interview screen runs and he said that wolverine is in my past. I don't ever want people to feel that. When i say i'm doing it's a good thing. It was one of the great chapters of my life. But it's over. He then told. Jake's takes that it's still a i caught hold close to my heart but i know it's don't tell out to whomever you want but please let's find because we believe in just a love that is not. I don't think he's coming back. I wish he would bar. I don't think we're going to get huge job. Think i think you might do at one day but literally as like a fleeting cameo. I could see a cameo in deadpool. Three maybe multi just tree-lighting the ball like i'm not being. Yes something like that. But i don't think it's going to be. It's going to be much at all. I think if an embark of and they need to they need to give more offering a big break because we need. It's going to be weird having somebody else coming at this day. Yeah yeah. I'm not be huge. I'm basically i mean. I've i've had stuff about i. M taryn yeah. I think he's a good opportunity. I think he's a good opportunity. I think he's a good option. Is john jackman is at just comes across the petillo feel like we need lake somebody in the fifty s huge perfect for pay more morning. Kevin fight you just pay milan cattleman. You can do it. i think. That's it for news then. So should we. Should we get richard on and talk about the first episode of wife. Haven't right so now that we're into the the wife breakdown so actually one of what i am. I'm extremely happy to introduce office. Guest host to the the shout direct from the direct. We have richard evans. Thanks use that. That's that's the gossip ghulam. Maybe even start something. I'm richard thank you very much for joining us to help kick off a what if chronicles event at for anyone who doesn't average is a writer and editor for the direct who specializes in the in. The emc also owns and operates his own restaurants. He's extremely extremely busy. So again thank you. Thank you very much for taking the time to to jordan was on the episode. We will Before we get into what. We'll have a full interview with richard komen to pay trump which is gonna release on the september yet so full full chat with richard about what he does it the direct. What as well as darren and how it all works so get into a what. If i know we've already done the at There will be spoiler steadily over as usual. We'll talk through the absurd in detail will break it down. What did we like. What didn't we like and then we'll get to. The end will get your like an only on june. Richard jumpin interrupt. Just give us give us your opinions shylock. This might seem like a really detailed way of gardens told richard before we were Minute defile but this sounds like a lot of detail. I really liked the fact that at the start. The animated the mall studios logo the whole thing go. All the way through. Tribal dow is cool. I expected when it started it all to be rated. I was a little bit devastated when it wasn't when they just gave us a little at the door as it i was. I was curious to see what they would do with that. Because like we've had a little bit something different for all the other shows as being animated but just that little bit right at the a new it was. It was a nice touch. It was just enough was an it was just to not to not to not not to bother doing anything. Just throw some bit. I also feel anew is going to be in it jeffrey. Right there in the voice so good and couldn't have picked anybody better. I could let you listen to that guy to be recite the dictionary. I think the only passionate of enjoyed more would be mortgage friedman. Yeah just what. I was going to exactly where i was. It was like morgan freeman. Geoffrey right go. Go jeffrey rights. I thought quite as well because they started off by reminding us a little bit very quickly about about obviously what happened. In in the first avenger. it's interesting. How it goes time gives you time. Yes we also really appreciate it. Because i didn't think do this that they they showed us the exact moment that the time line branched. They explained denise at. This is the moment because peggy coauthor decided not to go upstairs. Opt out of the room the nexus event that the i was curious to see if they would do something like that but that was a really interesting bit where they. That's the moment where everything jade has decided to stay from finished. Impose a yes or no question exactly act on not changes every both of effect. Isn't it the tiny tiniest thing. The only thing the only thing that sure of is because the whole thing then from that played out quite differently. Because obviously you're in the in. The original in banja kruger sets off the bomb after slaves become cap the app because he was open the right so i don't quite i couldn't quite understand how just by hand grownups the room. It changed everything. Yeah that much. It seemed a little bit too much getting getting changed. And if you get what a the ball nights of the does could do go off killed iskin which stunned tucci who got to to assume. He's thinking they actually jones wasn't ended at all. That was the next thing i'm going. He killed him off. Like i can't tell me. George coming to you know killing kid did you ever hear about you. Knew a white hole. Yes i am is an english kind of criteria is in junkers yet. Another enjoying okay. Yeah so he was actually in frozen as one of the troubles yeah however he went to the red carpet events. What state i was like. I'm not in phone. Does agents afterwards. I supposed to tell they've changed your parts. Non speaking role to the red carpet premise. Was you saw his day in the seed and you even see him as if he's about to speak as it takes tavist kind of maybe if they'd come to get into the nipple i do feel like it's some the business should have probably been clouds. A steve if if you told me that chris wasn't going to be an actually sold just yeah. Great takes various. Keaton really good. I'd always done a ton of marvel stuff before. But he nailed steve. Yes decorated radio drama. And is it just always. Sebastian stunned the most enthusiastic. He's basis eisenstein in every films bay. Name somebody should have been cooled just like a not like not not interested all the time but he's just so calm and collected and then in this animated versions like someone's gone you need up to two hundred percents another steve. It sounded survey like he'd been given the lines but that's it he just had his lines yet in else going on of the shower not suffice. Read read read this also like a a super different version of bucky than we'd ever seen. I mean 'cause he hadn't geoghegan go through any of the winter soldier stuff even the start of his programming or whatever and he didn't realize that we didn't have steve obviously turned the cap it was it was interesting. I gotta say this to dominic cooper in this. I think i liked him more in this that i actually did in the first movie co. Yeah yeah it's really good. Yeah put a lot. He was again. He was very animated. I thought he was great. It was maybe realize it's it's been so long since you had kluber in the mc it he didn't even get anything in and gave me it wasn't even the credits and game or anything. I assume quite impressive. The they brought him back. Agent carter vibes. Yeah yeah it was great. I'm really happy rosenbach jingles. It was good because obviously the guard is jersey. Because they couldn't get him in so we go we john flynn instead who was like his replacement. The guy who was running the The esau bradley whitford gyco briley brothers Who was a cabin in the woods and got out. He was great. I thought it was really weird that they made the look like broadly what. I didn't need to do that. Because we know right there. But i just i appreciate the fact that they made it. Look like like the actor and we obviously got to meet all all the or move to the the cost of the cost of clarity. Yeah exactly so so. Peggy obviously goes went into machine. She ends of being turned into the super soldier and start. He's huge lots of you. Don't need heels anymore. No no not god enough. It didn't i didn't get that from all the program materials that she was going to be like hench a foot taller. So that he's gonna be like natalie portman but it makes me wonder. I mean because i think before the episode we already been so. There's a rumor got around that we might be getting a live option. Paktika i i after this. I'm thinking i wonder even more go on me too. I'm like how are they gonna do this. Know six five hundred republican. i just get. Everyone's a stunned further away from the camera. Yeah i'll do not so begun office worldly. A bad scene pag as coppin coauthor with a thought as well just a little bit in it. The whole scene in the gym when she was a throw in the throw in the weight will destroy in your comments about leash. Off during a uso tolls. And it's like how. I couldn't exactly how different how different would've been on. It's like the bullet with like what chenier. When the way they start talking about being a woman and she shouldn't be in these honorariums know that kind of stuff if forget a. It's not something we're back then hopefully different and it's like you know i just when you when you look at it. You see. that's why they're such a difference between them both. Yeah a dad like the. They made a point of shelvin segregation as. Yeah yeah yeah exactly it. Highlights the was named after after that. Then we go off. We get off this or intro in this episode anyway to the to the red skull voiced by not hugo even now it was small conned. Who did med school in game. If you hadn't told me it wasn't fuego. Josh keogh was great. Steve rogers ross. Morocco on was amazing. A fifty or endgame too. So it was it was. I don't feel like he. I think he sounded like hugo. We even in infant warning sounded like somebody pretended to be more undoing. A very good impression this like it was just the just out so impressed with the greek races voice was was great and so may i tho- as well because the they said maybe i've missed this the tonsberg which is where he got the task right. That's new oscar. that's totally new asgard. Yeah that was the same. In the first avenger first one. I'm like ninety nine percent. Sure it is yeah. I didn't even twig on. I didn't even get on the. I was watching it. I was like what they're really. It's just the way whole topic. We don't appreciate how these things are all. Yeah seriously together. How many times exactly how. How far in advance all these things upon. Or whether they just think all i think about that all the time how how am i. Is it a happy coincidence. Or is it really cleverly planned hospital we all along exactly the weather the just really clever going back and thinking a really good not i do wonder i think i think five he said the next five ten years planned out there and i'd say at least some degree exactly when you look at how much we've already got for the next two years. Yeah how many project must they be involved with especially with us now. Exactly stunt even just three movies the air anymore. It's three movies in full tv series. Four with it's a must be so hard trying to sort of get it obviously not just come up with the ideas for having to get a rights again get it right. I mean the beauty of the mc you is the fact that is all linked on cameos all over the place on an eight flashes together on. It's it must be so hard just getting the right the right balance between it rather than making it just like a over the talking too many too many cameos railway. So so again. Peggy wants to go in to to fight. Bought book flame out. We're not any over stock. The suit and the shale sneak how i've channel and he started he was the highlight is unsuitable gave it to a minnesota. She said the union. Jack she was like not say she says she goes into it and she says she catches toby. James's on zola by taking out. Cade again he was hardly in the abbey. Jones fairly steady tucci exactly correct that when she catches everybody's like Shaiza by exactly the agree this whole scene with sorts of realizing that power set. This is sort of like has loads of with it. And she's like off cool. Stop how much she can do. I look outage because that is what we would be like it if one more could do without with like. Hopefully she'll saito bore. I bet exactly tomes all right though. 'cause i mean we'll we'll talk about the reports on osama book. I think a lot of people so thinking that maybe it was a bit too comedic. But you know what you think richard. You think they haven't quite well time wise. Would you think it was a bit too on. The silly sobbing. I mean it's kind of it gets kind of what you'd expect from the situation. Because like i mean i hope to that like it. Taking steve or so different. When they're you know when they get the serum it when they try to test out their powers and everything because peggy's obviously been trained as as a soldier or at least a little bit you know going into world war two and everything and now that she's frigging super soldier got kind of makes sense that she's going old bore just being the crap out of people somehow how those powers you be like this is by. Today's is amazing. I think i think the one of the main things that we've got is they're going to try and be open to as many as broad and audience as possible. Yeah we've just gone from one division to falcon in the winter souljah to locate and they've been very deep. Yes yes totally. I think that bringing a car to that kind of one episode story arcs. Basically i mean the my like ach at the ball. Yeah general does like an individual story episode. I think they're trying to make sure that it is. I think scillies have a bit too strong wives for the kind of like bringing the dot kind of fun element into a little bit more so that the kids can watch as well. Yeah yeah i mean. I think it's just trying to give access to again that broader audience. How you've role could be completely wrong. Now i think with that. I think too that when you're looking back at all these different movies from the infinity saga like when you're going back at telling stories that have semi already been told you kind of do that with go a little bit on the extra side with it you know. And i'll be curious to see how that goes through the rest of the episodes. Because i think i mean not that seen the the next couple or anything with the pressures are everything but I've heard we're getting the challah star lord. God that's gonna be that's gonna mess me up. You gotta wonder as well whether it because the government down. I mean i suppose when you think of a late in nineteen the montage a little bit late yet. It is a bit. It is a big company. Isn't it the way that it was portrayed. As opposed to the first avenger was on the weather. As we go through these different episodes maybe will have different tones. B.'s episode. Yeah be silly is going to be the dock. Because this one was in the forties and same way gats america. First adventure was data. Think shocked strikes. Me as much. And i think we are going get kinda different tones for. Yeah a lot of these oats depending on what's in them and i think it'd be quite full nail if they end up also the together from having new different types of other great. Yeah with a with peggy's powers one thing that's was a three may abate was. She seemed albums rojas evident when she took out a lot. I call like. I've never seen steve anything. Like that. was like a whole different level of power. Basically steve just like throws a punch. Peggy is but i. I wonder whether again it was down to the fact that it's automated. So you can. You can do that so you you can. you can do anything with. Cgi they up steve flick on a call with a shield and siegi both in live action. Sorry bull would it look a bit stupid whereas in animated you can get away with being light. You services have been more extra on a little bit more the logo more of the top. Maybe so i suppose you just have to. you've got put it to degree anyway. So so going on with the episode. Dan so she gets her. She promotion to captain carter and on explosive promotes a self. And then we get howard stock. He's to to make the first ivory amman. Didn't you know why because the all exchange is. It's not steve anymore. So i with each an island sue because he had that actually does. It wouldn't have been able to power. The the i'm on seeds because he always had posed as he always had this idea. But then how it's it was totally would mean like a soon as as soon as a cave flying out. I just ran a really. I'll say this they didn't explain it. Well lay on howard had been working on that suit like if you'd always thought to use the test reactor whatever i get. I mean it looked awesome and it was. It was really cool and i think it was like a good not to the fast i suit. Yeah exactly cave like quite like to an extent. I just struggled to believe it because it wasn't very well explained and it did yeah to me. It just didn't get the it's it was something that the cable kind of Sixty seventy years later. Yeah i know yeah it was a very. It was very advanced out of left field. Yeah was logo. I don i. I like to i love it. I didn't enjoy it. Just storyline might as well just like a little hard to grasp of a bit like the had to. They had to figure out to give them something to do area because it just like a little box for the rest of it yet. Both in ireland had a the episode. It got from sorts of While now i'm on suits in seconds wars. A bit rushed for ben. I didn't feel like they have much of an option. Because it was twenty six minutes showed. Yeah right our on a no automation is it. Takes longer probably takes longer to do or especially with that guide animation. Yeah exactly yeah. 'cause he's also cgi shade and isn't it. Both i do think i do think it would benefit benefited massively from no more to the story but maybe just an extra ten minutes yes sorta flat out flesh out the story or even just a scene or something that would've met maybe could have explained it or face. I couldn't really so anyway. So thompson calls so she she still follow suit populism see she she rescuers one thousand. Mostly yeah. We we oversee me sebastian. Psalms bookie who didn't like. I didn't like i didn't i didn't think it was great. Till and then obviously we saw the highest own in action. And then we got what i would feel. It was one of the best parts the episode the whole winning the war on taj in the full asia thousand raziq. I thought it was. I think it was the tone of the episode. Wasn't it was a bit right that company. It was really good news. Really good through. Boxy like the uso cd-rom from so on the back bit the whole this with a dog fight with the planes with steve. So it's flying around and peggy. Just out wasn't three show so good. Yeah but then earlier taghi at the planes it exactly exactly and then just throwing people out of the flames. It's like this is a cause you just throwing in columbus yes bumping in wreck narok. Yeah yeah and all about serve. Our school of it just made me think of that when they did so so we i think it was then. Lightweight boxer boxer red school. Who's now knock on the tesseract because peggy's road the offer and this is where it's like a really different tens of engine. 'cause he started saying that he's trying to bring about the the true champion of hydra. He's gonna straighten from beyond the stars. And i go down the excited that i don't know i was. Maybe a little bit disappointed with what we got for. I was thinking like. Is it going to be low. Keith is going to be thanos as the is going to be somebody really big nfl. I'm when we got the the monster. Which is why. I was foolish if i i don't know what what is the show. Many people have different opinions of why gordon news. I could've would've been amazing through on it just like always i mean i think it's we'll we'll talk about it. I think he's probably shaming with letter sorts with a bleeding bull. I found that. I was a bit like a when i mean not seeing really excited. And what the payoff at the end. I didn't think it was quite as as good a photo of something bigger and we got a little bit of a more. I mean rushed episode. Like sad book. We did spend a bit of time building a relationship between peggy steve. Yeah which is good considering such a show. It's upset because we needed because one of the big edge politics. I was curious to see about the dynamic between them with their roles. Cata switch now that captain. American steve's just a normal person. But i thought they did a really good job with that especially considering like ethic overall to considering they had to tell a two hour movie in thirty minutes hit a good job of getting the ad do they call. They did squeeze align than i saw. I thought it was interested. I think he did a good job with the dynamic. It's still fellow bit. It's always definitely if it was six. Four five four four eight zero scores. It was just like this is gonna work was just. I was so glad when when howard just insult the didn't middle classic howard harry. I thought that was you. Were doing exactly exactly so we then got the the train seen or operation where he goes back which i just shootings just announced the favorite films orioles that all the time it was it was. It was very similar to the to the from the first avenger with with a few obvious changes. Yeah bohemia thion even did made the comment about really badly my opinion again. Boy he made comments about you what we almost with my off which is quite nice. That was that was nice though an out to be a drop so we thought we thought steve died. Did you think richard. Did you think steve was that. Did you think we'd get him back. Not not even sort of. I didn't even. I didn't think he was dead for a second call. I mean like. I will say i got a bushel. At it was it was a really good moment in the episode. And i definitely felt it when he was yell at his name. But i just didn't think there was any way that they were actually gonna kill off the for a second. I thought maybe they would have Steve take buggies plays lower winter soldier. Thing for a second. I but yeah i mean. It was cool moment regardless. Yeah i think that was quite a common. Because i had a couple of people message me on twitter saying obviously mid mid episode so st the new in soldier that this was before us all the way down i if because i thought he was gone because i was like the don't particularly need and it's not chris right in a voice so i was kind of like maybe but then affords what if he went down kind of don cheadle because if he's got like the beginnings of the suit what if it was like something that just paralyzed him but then he got the suit. Yeah yeah the thing is that we probably is gone. Now she exposed to them. She timed seventy years. So we'll get onto where we got com. I'm not idol. Now no no. No way didn't have anything about him. did he was just he probably not. There's all the tells. Peggy med school plod. They own a sort of a takakazu with howard which i thought was great. Bring and howard elite. We've missed on kruger's the fact that he got drive along. Because i thought that same god get into push the bones because that's the whole thing with ribbons. We need plan. I have a shield. A shield is not a plan moved to the dynamic between those two in the. I bet like the suicide with his career back then. Today it was very odd. Yeah those bookie fine stephen. The finds the highest on. Obviously because we all partly from mayfield knew he wasn't dead and then read school. Use the rocks for the poll which brings through his champion. Which will debate. What what is he in a second both ad egypt kill the fact that he kills him. Straight away to set catholic. I did have good goodbye. Women now at the fact that reds was killed off surprising. Great is really free to get rid of me. It's like a high still. I was quick and easy. Laws was Again it's a half hour to write against this. This is why. I think see about a man. I'm quanta mania. Yeah i've said Upset that i. i've gotta fail in. Because they've announced congress going to be enough. I think a man and the wasp. We're gonna be battling kind goal away through. They don't quite greets him. But then i think the real come. The the big bob congress gonna So kind of going to fit in south in the last minute and then kind of that way because it seems like an odd film to poke angan to shirt so. That's kind of the way i was going. I'm not it back kind of the same field. I wouldn't charlie brought to them and gonyea. Here's my big out on the ash. Christa simmons to by a big about. Yeah there's a lot of debate about who he is. I've multiple messages from loads of people saying it's this. It's this yet. So i think there's a few people thinking it's avenue washed agency. Shield hive from agency. Shield or the hive frozen to shield richards. Louise was agency jailed. I mean i've watched shield. I know exactly who. I've is but i don't know i'm not. I don't know if i would lean hive up on the grass train. Personally i am yet. I i am. The people told me after megan's fate so especially to with the fact that he's rumored to be the battle doctrines to peggy's pot- potentially the doctor strange to a. That's that's too. It's you can't miss it like it fits really nice. Why if it's technically counts. Whoever else now yeah so. It seems like not the pathak opportunities either. I originally when when he first came out. I thought it was the monster from gardens couch. Two in the batteries scott scales. I ask about five minutes. So people's lives tex-mex mcgrath. I'll was so anyway sir. Steve joins us joins pie in the battle against shimmered graphite golan peggy with i was dead. Impressment bag sold real woman by zhang of it which i thought was a bit taken away but it was. It was good. I liked dot and against you. If that was the hassles of owning owning wasn't it. And so i know steve was that al fiqh and ask basically exactly. Yeah but i think it's quite. It's quite a good sort of comparison against what we got in our time. Line as a call that 'cause i think i know steve's always been the hall of team but he's always been sort of overshadowed by tony as i am on right in these things even though tony's not so you can do things steve. Calm 'cause ximen suits to clinton i see it not the the the one that beat big baden yagi managed with a sold rodney huge mac. Different take on it. It was really was. I liked it. I thought it was a photograph. It was free. I mean whole thing's supposed to be fresh take isn't it bore. Thought it was a good way of good way. So so steve suzanne again back through just add on. I'm peggy again. We on the same reaches the fist of pagans of pushing amongst the battery. The poll but book. And then that's when we dad's the the coal to the hoop of the avengers. Yes essentially located. And he's he's entrance except salvador much. Yeah now it's jost. It's just hawkeye in nick fury. So my big question so before we go into like what did we think of it because talking about surveys icon. I'm trying to think of. It can't wrap around. How she jumped seventy isn't the future. This bastogne doesn't jump you into the do time no no space so a colorado my head around highs our how she's modesty not taught me how old the only thing i can think is that she's i mean i don't know because i don't know the space. They wax is not real clogged spoiler alert. Is it like a realm finn. I may maybe if she's lajja way or something it's like a like agent doesn't happen narrow Attempt it could be anywhere. One one thing. I was thinking too. If it's true mcgrath. He's got some multi-diverse possibly time travel powers so he could have no no because it's just a wild theory but maybe that's abide with the space down. Yeah i suppose you think as well. I know we saw like in split-second no peggy's not aged book wonder how long he's been traveling. It could've been like like scott. She could have been some wefa hours probably years because i mean it's costing economy which she's age she could it might not have been a split-second when she went in she was sort of okay and alive when she came house Bits of him flying around and he's obviously now dead because fight thinned. Something obviously happened and opposed. Because i know thinking now i know. We've we've seen bitten the trailers with peg interacting with doctor strange. I don't know whether it's tough to say a strange supreme apartment. But no she's interacting with him in the trailers. It's the weather that's all happened before. She's london where she is. Maybe yeah where does saul fit into the timeline. That could that could could moment could be the end of what. If i'm we're gonna see the rest of it go through we. What if that moments after doctor. Strange the multi resume this and it's after they defeated she mcgrath wild crazy. This is typical bad. They did a bucket. It was a play where you've seen in the in the animated advantage yet but the live auction thing like just a position that you say like you see stephen. The suv coming down or something like that. The i think something like that would be quite cool. I'd love it so if we saw something along the lines of like an another know how they'd have to do a very good job of making this not look stupid. Yeah if i saw animated peggy go through. The postal clout is live action. Pay back in the polls love the show the difference in the difference in the dimensions. Yeah w. pretty cool. I'd i'd like. But yeah i mean we've break the upside down. I mean i thought i thought good episode fact though way it had its faults the as i said the the voice octa me was the was the big the biggest select of the episode. I think some people great a mortar. Low haley out well. I don't think she was brilliant during the voice of peggy. Both sebastian stan was just something warm bed at the end. Let us know whether the when just when he's going to fight mcgrath and steve flies pasta but he tends goes go. Get him steve. Go back and watch it. It's like a to do something with it. Was either something weird with the voice acting or the editing but something definitely off. Yeah issue now some what what. What what you guys think that you you you sold on it. Why do you think it was concert was completely sold but it was entertaining like i enjoyed it. Yeah do you know what i mean. Yeah i have. I think for me the main. I'm quite easy to enjoy something boy. One thing we start questioning everything so much. The suits bana was the hottest in is now a little bit. But i was entertaining and i enjoy you. Did i agree what what's thing sold or not show yet told. You need a few more episodes to be sold on the series. I mean this is one. I've been excited for for a while. i love animation and i love. Look back stuff like this I've definitely closer on the soul. Train definitely looking forward to seeing the rest of these stories. I mean we got earlier. We got the challah star. Lord coming up. We got marvel zombies base. Be too. But i'm i'm excited to see the rest of it and we got. We got eight more episodes of a ton of crazy that so. Yeah i'm definitely in the longest series. We hot as well as this is going to go on for ages now gay and like a long yet along with this at night too. But this one's been every single week nine nine filling. It was a long three or four percents before we actually knew what was going on. The premiere episode there was the double double premiere. Episode so was only eight weeks but nine episodes. Yeah that was about four or five weeks before we knew what the hell was gone by when the weather from the the reactions obscene to this wilder go in portland's assemble and from like from the because you're not seeing the first three episodes. Richard don't better not we. We haven't dumpers when big from the reactions of seen from people have seen a they. They seem to say that. Like absurd. one is good but not great and it gets progressively from two absurd three. Yeah and that's really excited for the next couple. Yeah i wonder whether they should done a one division and given was the first two episodes to sort of to the pocos if the a week ago or two weeks ago even with people where the episode wounds okay. Who's no i think. Maybe rife hoped people alabama and they'll be more from it but now i agree with you guys. I'm i'm pretty much sold. But i'm really excited to. Yeah i call it. See what happens to see. Walk homes brilliant wealthy richard. Thank you very much for joining us to break down. The first episode of of you are office proper cameo on the air on the show. So i'm gonna come out. So richard is a writer for the direct. he twitter so it's between three and harass rich. You're find you visit. Richard butcher which is handle. It's our nevins are any b. e. Ns and yeah you can find me there. That's where published most stuff and yet look forward to interacting with the federal show. You keep doing a great job. Do a hell of a job with us. Thank you thank you very much going. Full full richard. On on twitter we will have a full interview with. Richard said iran as well so you're probably delve into richards not riches life with really a little bit well. Richard does for the iraq fans when he gets involved with. Ah but again. Thank you very much. Richard it's been a pleasure. Thank you thank you so much right should we. Should you portland's assemble. Let's do it pod fans okay. Six this is the biggest pod funds. Assemble we've had. What the episode safe. Oh yeah we come across an being thankful for that we just a lot of pressure. We've been quite excited about it to be fair. This is the most interaction we've had so genuinely really thank you. We go to the park to be but this episode is going to be more than i will try and get through them as quick as we can via pod funds assemble so we started with a poll just to see what people's thoughts are. What if so. We asked whether people loved it was it was okay or the hated it. Fifty five percent lived at thirty nine percent said it was okay and six percent hated it yet they should. I mean i've read these comments. That are common now so mixed real mixed muzzle. I mean i'm surprised dots. The percentages in the poll. A little bit more on the hated hated side. I just thought the bill seems to be a lot of people. Just think it's kind of ran robin breath as we said him wife. I'm still a hundred percent. Sure where. I episode to see what we got at goma. Let's say let's rapid fire. Go pull. Michael was really looking forward to this one but was only okay. Good to see the rest of the of that story. Yes yes or if we got some more if filled out a little bit yeah. I'm going to try not speak actually more we can talk. We talk about that. I agree i was a bit disappointed. I felt at the end of the episode. Kinda wanna full movie of it yet. Live auction as well. I don't want to see more of it being like giradi revealing from automation to i'm sold on that one. No that's my. That's my isaiah with the shield. Aft on that because i said something about something similar to that like one or two weeks ago when you like space joe now you like reduce your i d you forget about. I don't take it out in the morning. I'm robina. We've got time eighties at the combat choreography. Animation was absolutely superb. Yeah it kind of had an giants vibe to it. Yes book excited. You've made it onto the buzzard with more realistic motions. Yeah i agree. Yeah when this was fast announced. I assumed it would be the standard straight to video fair. We normally get pleasantly surprised yet. Okay i like the down. The combat was brilliant particularly with the got powers and she was like you know throwing the time over and jones to five five said pleasantly surprised in show. There were a few slight forced scenes. What you get when you've got a good story to build on their afterwards. I am only one thing i history. Ned would notice tiger tanks actually whacked and in could splinter to so many good story starts could. Yeah kolja us again. Why is it is it. The end is at the end of this episode. Or is it the end of the story down now dan. I don't even think we'll we'll find out next episode. We won't we'll find out at the end of episode k. w. weldon decent the format required a lot of sacrifice of growth and hero's journey etc. For example she never fails. Steve fail to save bookie but overall an enjoyable side and trade. Really go point element of the there was not no. It's just a complete success story when all the way all the way through. Yeah yeah yeah. And even even the moment when she was you steve when she when she thought she didn't even when she sacrificed herself by going into the poll. She didn't thing is probably because it's hard to mation seem that bothers me. Go now go to see you later. Bye i mean what i think is nice is both hair and steve have the same mentality. It's not for the glory or anything like that. It's because it's the right thing to possibly wash didn't make a big deal. I've just got to keep her. The sacred flame said the people who haven't watched agents of shield a super confused right. Now all i was of yeah. Yeah also know located the fact when they met when they meet carter. Yeah which is what i said. I live selvik either now. Definitely gone down there. But i wanna see that universe. We'll see what i'm going to get to the end of this. And if they are all separate store isn't going to be like on the end. I want to say that supposed to do that. Yeah yeah seriously. Peacemaker said we have peace me like the real peacemaker i am. It was good but flawed had many problems but the standout was the pasted. The pain was terrible and if someone hadn't seen the engine they would not understand most of this episode. In my opinion. I really am looking forward to the next to the series especial especially marvel's on on conway from all of us on biz kind of agree with the pace and because it was really felt rushed. Yeah you had to get in any kind of a little bit all over the place icon. I wanna say. I was gonna say nobody would be watching this. If you haven't watched the first avenger yeah. I do feel like a lot of funds at the moment how long this has been going now. The area i'm not convinced everybody. Watching it has seen the first avenger. Or if you've seen it not seen it more than once by this point might not have been old enough yet. Exactly exactly the might not. They might not have been. There's there's plenty of people in like what you know mid teens who'd be watching this on the open really really young when it came out and yeah maybe you've seen it before. I mean we've been watching it old. We've been we've been watching this for years and we've had time to watch the multiple times and under these things you might get people watching it who've literally in the first avenger wants and maybe it won't make complete sense. Yeah well it's actually had a few comments. The covet did repeated acts game and said would have been better with at least forty minutes that it wasn't long enough for how they were telling the story and it felt rush at gracious. Exactly what we said. Yeah i'm tom. Cosmos said yet. The patient was fast. Nothing actually stuck with you. In my opinion it was a fun. Paint-by-numbers episode that showcase some animation. I hope the other episodes on pastes similarly in wrong run by candidate need. Did it need to be more at this stage. I agree with it. We said wasn't it was very it was four and it was a bit campy. Yeah for not necessarily a bad thing. I think he's just thrown as with the tone that have won the vision and loki arguments soldiers. Very very different. And then the arkham spider set. The pace in was not an issue. This is not a regular series. The next episode will not continue this story. Think of it like love death and you bots. They all consist in different universes. Therefore they have to pay things a bit quick episode. don't inside inside minutes not that's a good ruble. It is gonna hope it. And i agree with it but i hope it's wrong. I hope we are at one big story at the end of this. Yeah i mean the we've had little bits and pieces like two challenges. Apparently more than one episode and things like that but it might not be stolid cha cha so again we just. Don't i think it is that we need to appreciate it for this. Everything marvel related mc released. Hsa has to be all part of the overarching duck. Only yeah that's it doesn't all have to. We'll have to link these things. What if comics wasn't i don't get impression was on multiversity. It was just what if and it was one of one shots. So if that's all this is great. I'd rather than deepa board is. Let's just enjoy it for this then. Waiting follow on questions i am i the on. Yeah i thought that it was too similar to the festival and it's going to be like in many ways but they didn't change it in my opinion. Okay yeah see we come from but then maybe because it's only half an hour they couldn't move it to differently as it would've been the add to sort of probably rely on to a degree the fact that people had seen and the story was going. Yeah then we have. Kenneth i hope that captain carter crosses over to the live auction. Mci great character twist for pecci loved. They went back to red skull. Hope we see red school again in the movies. Now that there is a multifaceted. Amc hundred percent. I want ross. Marquand ross marco and buckingham. He's option amazing you really as radical. But we could. They could do now. This one's this one's dad. Both were like this could be lows. Where he's where we still live could get like a lex. Luther type thing avenger. Yeah yeah we're not gabe. This was a bad episode. Way too much you and a life threatening situation haha calamari joke. No emotional stakes. We said some had it seemed a bit. It seemed a bit campy however if we just point back to the apron into guardians of the galaxy to with great johnson. Die is a very funny scene. Yeah but it's life threatening steaks. Yes you know what i mean. Yeah so where. Where is that line. If that's what we're going to go down as i said before i think the different episodes different teams to them as well. Jonathan this was just come for nineteen forties usoc usoc. Oh type type thing. I got we saying that. Because like i i suppose like when you look at the episode into in detail the i bet where she fought the fight where she kit where she got zola. Yes she was like. Oh this is brilliant. Amazing could do this all day. I enjoyed the but then when we got a little bit further down and she was. We didn't mention it. She's like when the went into get at school at the end yet. She's running alongside the bike and she's like. Oh this is nice. And then she wrote that looks phone gonna take it off the estimate lie dot to me a little bit too silly and i appreciate it but i feel like it could be construed as maybe being a bit too. Yeah to forty and not serious enough with mason. It was okay. The story felt a little rushed. Could probably have been pushed to a full forty minutes to develop characters before the finale like the flash forward at the end with fury and hawkeye. Maybe a little ultimate avengers assemble that the series one end because he good. Yeah i'm an. We've got nebula with blunder. Yes is probably just yet so then tom. Kathy wasn't fun to be honest. Maybe it's because it's a cartoon. Allegedly animation is great. Or maybe it's because it's kind of a rehash of an existence story. Yeah again yeah. I think it's always going to be hard. Isn't it because you are retailer story in a different way. Yeah if there are people that are hardcore funds. The satin story. And if that's the case. I don't think you'll have a fully within the move. Yeah i know what you mean. I i i think i just think with the tone again. Yeah yeah and it was all right with me. But i can see completely how it wouldn't say right with stevie said. Wow this series is going to be amazing. Great opener not gonna lie. I got excited and started secretly hoping for the possibility of a live action. Steve rogers winter soldier popping open the mci multi vast at some point but sadly. It didn't seem to turn out that way this time this time. Exactly there's more episodes is nine more episodes. You'd never knew. What do i love how much he likes it. Compared to the people. I love the fact that not that unlike just after drama. We'll light the fact that it's split in opinion the thing is out. Everyone's got their own taste. Never going to please everybody. And and that's in only find that the you funds love it and this is this is split in the funds. But then i mean to be fair as much as low key was greatly loft though is some quite negative opinions about satin aspects of that. Feel like they were in the minority. Though now i have seen more of it more recently. People really dislike. Sylvie and yeah they ask us. Yeah so again. I don't know if followed up to say also really love how they seem to take a page from the mendel orien- with those role instills at the start of the end credits. Yes which. I liked honestly not too sure why. It's only getting a mediocre response from funds. I loved it definitely excited for more. Apply pulse said festival. I think the animation is brilliant. It looks really good. Enjoyed episode one on the story just felt saturday. Minutes is not long enough to film length story and felt a bit rushed in parts. The story in that said. I'm still excited for the series. Yeah again yeah. It comes down to the the no pants. 'cause everyone say in quite similar things and it's just their opinion the people who like it yes still saying it felt like it was. It was too but again. That's awful relying on the fact that people will know the store and they only needs to do. The major beats rather than giving into detail. Yeah alan hangover. Like said thought it was great. Going to be an awesome series. Might just be made. But i thought how it stock was brill. And i always leave. Iraq did not level is about the walk down. I like i know we've we've joked about but when you do automation you have to do a hell of a lot more with the voice because you can't be seen now annot does on it it is. It's a hard balance to find. Yeah and if you haven't done it before and most well not most of them but a lot of these probably won't name. We've got rachel miller looked at really difference. I'm not always into this kind of animation. But this expanded my horizons. Look the nuts. To how our timeline panned out for example bookie say into pag nearly took my arm off at looking forward to the rest and if it links into the storyline. Yeah hey great. Andre is a vaccinated mask squarer mazen. I'm not a huge dalmatian style. But it looks like it'll be a series. I love the fact that we've gone from allied animation to kind of. Don't let it just the the mix between that wrong. It's just a. I love the fact that it's divided by people though. If everybody loved the same way we would have nothing to talk about exactly. I'm not that. I like very very grown up mature sponsor. Thank you well. don't so really much. It wasn't meant to be whatever goal said. It was disappointing episode at nothing much only capturing cartoon places in america and how consume on time travel with the space stone aka. The tesseract touched i. Yeah i don't necessarily agree with the rest of it feel. That was the applause when you think that the fast i suit came out this time and things like that but maybe not a pothole. Maybe as upset elaborate on my thing before maybe not only to she up source of me in doctor strange's to fly on. Its own doctor. Strangers got the eye of obama. Oh so he can control the time. Maybe so that could be the could be the fix. Maybe we needed roads podcast. It's matt think the standalone nature of the shirkers directly against marvel of been dealing with the longtime story talent so there are no stakes to the show other than the occasional. Oh that's cool. I'm surprised that people think i mean kobe. I really don't think it's going to be stunned. I'm famous. This is all going to be one big story. Ya gotta be. It can't be pointless. Now scholley no i hope no but if it is i got them. Yeah we've got novice one i one. I enjoyed it immensely. Satisfying or this pick apart. The indiana jones references in the beginning halston time and to his lost in ice and tyne pop stocks. I i. I would love to see her in a live action subway. I feel like many hatan out of mitch of misogyny. I hope that's not true. I hope that there will be so the will be some hundred percent. I hope that's not true. I kinda get people picking apart with. That's what was going to say. It's all job is not our job is just what we do for for giggles. Both and not. I hope that will be the will be the so. This is going to be an element of the welby. Troy robbins all. The advertising suggests that she's doing that made the decision altered the timeline but from what i saw the guy with the bomb made the decision. Push the plunger. Before steve was transformed after he altered the time. Line not high yet. We said the didn't make it didn't make sense at all. It was it to me. It was those two decisions together him going sooner and has stayed in. Rouses and going yeah. I wonder whether against your populism had wonder whether somebody else's pushing stuff so maybe it wasn't just down to the fact that peggy it said now a wonderful i may be. The watcher is sort of pushing things in certain directions to make all the that doesn't doesn't mean is lying doesn't means not lion Or maybe somebody else. Maybe variants of the watcher. Maybe if there is a democrat find out hit series team may never know antonio says it was great using lines from the movies made the intricate integration of the time. Line break easy. You've got the story. was well told. I don't care for the animation style. It looks cheap when enemies progressing cartoon realism american animation. Hasn't asshole okay. I was all right with it. But i get it. It looks cheap and impart in the for cell shaded. That means it's all computer. Generated is basically like toy story all pixar and the ad the lines on the outside to make it look like it Concert like it like it's a cartoon was shot in there. That it did was no no one hundred percent. But i think overall i i was all right with again i was gonna say i wonder if that go slightly different tones for the different shows but i think we already know the not the not going to go down. Yeah we've at message from jack sparrow. Apparently the jack sparrow the jack sparrow. Maison captain carter seemed way stronger than cut in america. She did reserve we did. Yeah yeah but i'm going to an animation. Just the you can get away with. They can get away with all. I wanna do onto the and without even a single drop around thank you. Thank you in touch i am. Tj sutton said was expected more. I guess but it felt a little boring. Seem like they just reversed roles for a move. We have already seen a bunch not wrong. But i didn't think it was necessarily a bad thing is why it's the also introductory i did buy goes so far out there on the fast episodes when people still trying to gauge. What's happened. I think if you keep it a bit closer to fast That ones e kind of you. You build a bit of a climax in my opinion. Yeah but again. That's just my opinion. Yeah i just think. I think i think. I don't think it's right. Because i don't think it's going to be standalone asano very so i just feel it. We're a bit spoiled with the fact that we think everything's going to be interconnected. There's nothing wrong with it. If it is standalone yeah bolt. I ain't so the. Get the disappointments. If you think it's not going to be. I think it will be disappointed if it is. But i think i'm i think you've just take it that it does not have to be connected. I'm jim malas said. Captain carter was a great start to the what if series. It was a good idea to use familiar characters voices and storyline. I'm not a big blast inside. I am not a big fan of animated superhero programs. But i really enjoyed the animation style. They used models a high ball with fast episode. So it is. It is a little bit. Timothy crept said absolutely loved. It nice and simple is central really enjoyed straight to the point on. Wbz was it easy sentenced to read valerie. Honestly it wasn't bad but it wasn't good. They rushed and kind of wish. There was more storyline like we got so much advertising for captain cars that i thought there would be at least more. I mean to be famine the trailers. She's pushed a lot. We we see cupped encarta more clearly than the characters we do. I am but again. I think that's because the teas captain carter story was similar. I'm steve yeah and everything else is going to be a little bit more out there. So i don't think they wants to give too much away of those just because of the first out because it's the first episode of look at it. Look at loki least spoiler because it's the first episode out the way yet in the local trailer the first one came out though eclipse and not from much further down the series in probably the last episode but you know probably the first five episodes clips there but the majority of the clips from episode one. And i think that's just how. How do the trailers we then had gerhardt michael volt. Don't anthony right now. Sorry if i got it wrong. It was nothing really had any effect on the future. Cap is now a woman call. It doesn't matter if it changes nothing. Why didn't have any effect on how we view women much. If maria hill was the leader of shield instead of fury there was no real ended. What if instead of just copying the movie they show was the effect it had on the future. That women aren't just here to s- after men. why if it showed us a more progressive and equal. Well now that the here of world war two as a woman. And i was just supposed to fill in the in between seeing parts. Whatever happened in the movie. I get it but a thanking. We've seen enough yet hype. We'll see more of this story and we will get to the stage where it's is what you said sort of it's more progressive world but she's laundering because we don't know she's literally only seen nick fury and hawkeye. Do you know what i'd love out like. If for example in doctor strange yeah in doctor strange tale if he goes somewhere and he's like what is this and the say like an old poster and its captain carter on their judges. I'm instead of steve. Yes something like that where it's like little nine that we've seen yeah boy. Does intensely go into that story like. Do you know what i mean. I think i think things like that am so we also asked to send in. What if scenarios and we've picked that we really liked and it was from beacon. What if bruce banner's experiments had been successful he'd never been hit with gamma and instead became super soldier. One hundred really. This is really interesting. i just don't know how to go into into it. So we'd have. We'd have to ship soldiers because obviously cap would be still capital. one is also brains as well as bronze. Yeah it should be like be behind. It'd be the leader the vendors we'd be thinking about the trajectory of his punch exactly exactly breath. The thing that you've got to think about that is it's not only going to change. The dynamic of bruce banner on the that there's no hulk it's gonna change everything about the mca because that experiment was for raw from the boroughs. Ross and he was the one who is trying to to recreate this. So by having a super soldier banner you've got potentially hundreds of thousands of super soldiers so you go into like a very different world. I don't think it'd be the source of mc you that we're in now. I would imagine that we probably be into a lot more of like a dystopia future like the government to control and everybody because every because they've got whole army of of super soldiers. Yeah it'd be very very different. Sort of scenario. In there. And steve rogers would just be kinda nobody and so. We're bruce banner. They wouldn't be. They wouldn't be superheroes because they'd probably the probably will probably be loads of them. Yeah i never get to the stage. Where all these i mean. Obviously you know they probably wouldn't be able to be on us for like even like the new york might sound like a thousand steve around yoke trying to beat to fight atari. They'd probably monitor the because the b. b. six now there'd be thousands of them fighting it would be. It'd be very very different. I thought yeah hippie. Yeah i think that's a good opportunity for episode. I was gonna say disney fearlessness. I'll be really good either. Well donate a lotta interesting and thank you. That's my essay. That's the decision but ten thousand words underneath. Thank you should we. Should we wrap up right. So thanks for listening to the show on duplicates comeback next week for our coverage of episode two of what if the continuation of chronicles events. We will have another guest host next week. Crime these guests. Don't it's good. And i enjoyed speaking of richard. You can find all episodes at that. Superhero thing dot com. Along with all of our social media links. You can find us on twitter. Facebook instagram on talk on the website you can also sign up for our email newsletter. Receive new episode. Let's news coin shares and some behind the scenes. Looks at the show. You can contact us on any of our shows and submit thoughts and theories for next week's pod funds assemble so we won't thoughts on episode two theories on where the rest of the series go in and we would preferably like some more. What is no some of them. If you enjoyed the show please do consider written on reviewing it on apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcast you can leave us. It means a well to us. It really helps us out in a and discovered as you mentioned as well we will be launching. Aww patriot channel i september. We've released some pictures of a tears on twitter. There been sitting on form. We made them awhile ago from ones. So we've got sidekick superhero and god the more in the future but that's what we're going whether the moments and you gonna tell you exactly what each one entails. At this point bought we will have a llama news comment of the next couple of weeks because we are only on the day recording this twenty days away from launch and we've got some good content for as well we've got got room. What is a bad move review. Which is which is already. And that's some fun to listen to but it wasn't fun today and then we've got We've got an interview with With richard evans. Who spoke to on on this week's episode as well. I'm gonna chat with him about his. His work with direct. One involves getting scoops. Where information from really good into that. While i enjoyed that. So yeah they'll be some more information coming on that soon or that those for this week so thanks very much spezia next week guys. Bye bye bye.

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Episode #21 Ethnobotany: The Science of Indigenous Medicine with Michael Balick, PhD

Body of Wonder

37:21 min | 3 months ago

Episode #21 Ethnobotany: The Science of Indigenous Medicine with Michael Balick, PhD

"Hi Andy. Hi Victoria. Well today on body of wonder we have the distinguished doctor Michael balik joining us. He's really a leading scientist in the field of ethnobotany. He's also a longtime friend and colleague of mine. We were both students at the Harvard botanical museum long ago. He was a graduate student. I was an undergraduate and then I was in medical school when he was a graduate student and we were both studying under professor Richard Evans schultes and we'll talk about him some in the podcast. So we have a lot of connections. And about 80 years of combined experience in ethnobotany. Yes. Well let's get Michael on. For more than four decades doctor Michael balak has studied the relationships between plants and people in the field known as ethnobotany. His vice president and director of the institute of economic botany at the New York botanical gardens. Most of Michael's research takes place in remote regions of the tropics where he works with indigenous cultures to document plant diversity and the traditional utilization of medicinal plants. He has served on advisory panels for the national Institutes of health and it's on the board of trustees of the American botanical council. Doctor balak has authored more than a 150 scientific papers and written multiple books. Most recently he authored plants people and culture the science of ethnobotany with Paul Cox. Welcome Michael. Oh it's great to be here Victoria and Andy. Wonderful to see you. Same. Well Michael I want to begin by having you define ethnobotany and speak a bit about your work. Well that's no botany is the relationship between plants people and culture. And back in the late 1800s a young Professor of anthropology got up before a meeting of the American anthropological association and said I'd like to define ethnobotany create a new word define it as the study of primitive peoples than their uses of plants. And as we now know those people which harsh burger referred to as primitive are actually much more sophisticated in their knowledge of the environment in their knowledge of many many things then we are and we are seeking to learn from them. Ethnobotanists go to remote parts of the world. I've had the privilege of working in the Amazon in Central America and currently work in the western Pacific and Micronesia and melanesia melanesia being where I work is Fiji and Vanuatu. Micronesia coast shri and Palau. But we also work in urban areas. New York City is an extraordinary center of diversity. It turns out in New York City our residents speak up to 800 different languages. And that means 800 different cultures and most of these are immigrant groups that have brought a lot of their practices with them when they came to New York City. And so for 30 years perhaps we've been looking at the immigrant uses of plants in New York City not only what they bring with them but how they adapt how they learn from other cultures how for example Dominican healers in Washington heights interact with Chinese pharmacists in Chinatown and what they learn from each other. We've been working with Jamaican communities my colleague ina van der brook is really the lead in this urban ethnobotany program urban ethnobotany being a word we actually coined to focus on urban environments and immigrant and Diaspora cultures. Michael you and I have known each other for a very long time and we both had the privilege and good fortune to study under Richard Evans schultes the director of the harbor botanical museum who's considered the father of modern ethnobotany. You were his graduate student. He was my mentor as an undergraduate and then we were both on the research staff of the Harvard botanical museum. Yes those actually were magical times because as you remember there were 15 or 20 students and associates who were working all over the world right? And they would come back to the lunch table and we'd hear stories you know the stuff that dreams were made of I want to hear a story from each of you because I know how influential Richard Evans schultes was to each of you. And that there are some fascinating stories to be told. Well let's see. When I was an undergraduate so this was in the early 1960s the counterculture was just beginning to develop in Cambridge. And marijuana was just making its appearance. And schultes gave section of his lectures in his introduction to economic botany course on drug plans on psychoactive plants. And he mentioned cannabis briefly but he really knew nothing about it. And I was looking into the literature. There's very little written about it. There have been almost no research on it. And I said to him you know you want to take an interest in this because this is becoming very prominent and there's not much about it. And he shook his head and but it did Kindle an interest in him. And then he became you know a great researcher of the botanical args and of cannabis and began going around as an expert witness in cannabis cases and it was quite wonderful to see that develop in him. What I remember the most is biology one O four plants in human affairs. And how he would reach into his freezer and pull out specimens and samples from around the world. If you've never held a ten pound sugar beat in your hand it came out of the freezer and you could you could really learn by touching and feeling and seeing. And at the poison plants lecture he would take his blow gun loaded with a curare dart thankfully not not covered with curare and shoot it across the room into a target. And the students were just shocked. I used to say that that was the only course in my academic career in which I learned anything practical. There was one lab on making soap. There was one on making ink at the first lab that I remember he had a Mexican graduate student and that student's wife came in and made a typical Mexican meal. It was tortillas and guacamole. I mean things this was amazing. So we were introduced to all that you know through that course since we dick shelties. And you could really voyage around the world you know while staying in that room which is what ethnobotany you know gives people I call it a gateway topic to bringing people into science. It's just it's extraordinarily engaging you know? Well tell us how ethnic botany has evolved since schulte's era. Well I think shoulders really pioneered bringing together groups of people from other disciplines. Other than botany. And working on a problem for example as Andy mentioned psychoactive plants. And I think we've brought it along a little bit further. We have enlarged that collaborative of investigators for example we have a project in Vanuatu where we're working with not only botanists mycologists conservationists foresters. And linguists one of the things I'm fascinated by and have learned a lot from is my colleague David Harrison. From swarthmore who's a linguist a very accomplished and prominent linguist who developed with his colleague Greg Anderson the talking dictionary to try and preserve endangered languages. So in addition to doing botany where we're running around showing the plants to elders recording how they pronounce it taking photographic images of the plants and David puts it all on his talking dictionary. And really to provide cultural support to a community to help keep it together. There's nothing people are more fascinated by than they pull open a computer or you can open it up on your smartphone and start showing pictures of plants how they're pronounced in your ancient language the people know who the speakers are many of them are gone. This is their legacy. And the uses of the plant. So it's just much more integrated and I think there's a lot more respect also over the years for the value of the importance of the indigenous investigator such that starting in the 80s I would be including indigenous people as co authors on my paper. Certainly honored indigenous peoples in a way that most others had not at the time. One leap that we've made is giving them academic credit for their contributions. You know Michael earlier on you use the word primitive. And I think we have a certain hubris in the west about how evolved and intelligent we are. We've obviously made enormous scientific advances and created incredible microscopes and other tools to measure plants. And yet centuries ago indigenous people without access to any of this equipment learned which plants were good as medicine which ones were safe to eat in some cases how to detoxify things that weren't safe and they were using their senses in this incredibly rich way that perhaps you know we've lost the ability to use. Can you speak a little to that term that you've referred to indigenous science and what we can learn? Sure what I've found is that indigenous peoples use the western so called western scientific method of trial and error. But I add to it success. So trial error and success. You might taste that red berry because the red berry that you ate in your village across the mountain gave you a lot of energy and you taste this one that looks similar. Maybe it gives you a stomachache. So you spit it out. You don't eat it anymore. That's your trial and error or it's gives you powers that energy that you never thought you would have. So that's the success. As far as toxins go one example would be an endemic cinnamon tree cinema calorie Nancy on the island of porn pay. Now that has a compound in it called safrole which is a tumor promoter. And I wondered why people drank that as a healing tea and a tonic. And with all that saffron in it. And so what we did working with a group from Lehman college including a chemist Ed canelli and his student Kurt raynards and we looked at how indigenous people take the safrole out of that tea we reproduced the tea in the way they made it. And we found there was no saffron in it. While in the bark it was loaded with saffron. And the way they did it was to simply boil the water which degraded the safrole and titrate out the liquid and leave the bark behind. So I'm always just wondering how do people come up with this you know? Any thoughts on that Andy? Well you know one example is ayahuasca which has become such a prominent psychoactive substance these days I would never have thought that would happen. But you know they're advertising ayahuasca experiences on the streets of Tucson. At any rate it usually in the Amazon this is made it's an admixture of two plants one banisteriopsis copy the bark has a psychoactive substance called harme in it. But doesn't really cause any visual changes. And most of the native peoples combine it with some other plant often the leaves of a plant that has DMT in it. Dimethyltryptamine DMT is a very powerful vision inducing psychedelic but you can't take it by mouth because and enzyme in the stomach a monoamine oxidase degrades it. So when anthropologists first purported this and bought in this mixture they said well the DMT plant can't possibly have any effect. And the indigenous peoples always said that this was used to make the visions brighter. And I remember hearing and Shelby's this class that they found this by trial and error. But when I was in the Amazon cooking up ayahuasca with shamans this profusion of plants it's hard to imagine this thing. Well it's Tuesday. I'll try to leave today. And when I would ask shamans how they discovered that they could mix these two together. They all gave the same answer and it was that the that the plant that banisteriopsis showed them when they were intoxicated on it this other plant so that they found that through intuition stimulated by that natural experience. To me that makes that's more logical than the explanation that this was trial and error. So I think that people living close to nature their intuitive senses of things are much more developed. Body of wonder is produced by the Andrew Wilde center for integrative medicine at the university of Arizona. Internationally recognized for innovative health and wellness programs evidence based research and clinical standards. The center offers listeners a wide range of free resources to live and maintain a healthy lifestyle including online learning meditations and short videos. To find out more go to AZ CIM dot org slash podcast that's AZ CIM dot org slash podcast. Mike I have a practical question for you. What about the issue of intellectual property with regard to this kind of research? Because there's been a history in the past of pharmaceutical companies and others exploiting this indigenous knowledge and then developing products for profit and there's not been compensation either in terms of giving intellectual credit to or monetary credit to the people that they learned this from. Yeah that's a great question Andy. In the last 30 years really 40 years starting in the 1980s people's in our field in ethnobotany started saying wait a minute. If these contributors are intellectually deserving of authorship they're also in financially deserving of any benefits that come from this. And the first real push came from the national cancer institute. We had a collection contract to collect 1500 samples a year from around the new world tropics. And the person running that contract at the NCI at the time Gordon Craig said and I want to make this a model of benefit sharing. And this was again in the late 80s before people really thought about this. So the U.S. government actually pushed forward this idea that people were deserving of compensation. And so over time we developed short term compensation medium term long-term understanding that in a pharmaceutical research project 99.9% of the plants will not have an economic yield. So there were short term benefits. For example we worked with a company then titled shaman and pharmaceuticals now Jaguar pharmaceuticals Jaguar health. And they devoted a percentage of the cost of the field work to benefit the population and the short term. So Steve king one of my graduate students actually used funds and had funds available and would ask the communities where he was working. What they wanted sometimes it was an airstrip to bring people in and out in an emergency or barbed wire to keep their cattle from munching on the forest or a little museum that they could document their own culture. So these short term benefits turned out to be really significant. And over the long term in the case of Jaguar. Plant that they worked with called croat likely eye or sangria to Drago was approved by the FDA for the treatment of chronic diarrhea and patients that couldn't tolerate their antiretroviral therapies. And benefit so from the sales are now going back to those communities in a lot of different ways. So but it's not just financial benefits. I think in many places people are non monetary. They value other things. So when I was working in Belize with the rosset R Vigo and her husband Greg shropshire one of the primary folks that was our teacher was done in the Pontiac Maya healer. And an early early paper that I authored in the co authored in the early I don't know 90s. Identifying a plant that had potential anti cancer value donor legio ponti was listed as one of the authors on that paper. And what he did with that paper was was nail it to the wall of his little house his modest little house in Belize and people would come in and he would show them. He had about I don't know 30 or 40 patients a day. He would show them he would say so he got into so I'm guaranteed. Look at this look at this paper. I'm a published scientist. You know you should pay attention to my wisdom on healing. So it's a lot of different things. Andy one of the things that we still hear sometimes from skeptics is there's no value whatsoever to botanicals. Now that we have the scientific methods to create pharmaceutical drugs and yet an integrative medicine we teach our fellows that there are medicinal plants that benefit human healing in areas where we have no medication. And I'm wondering if you could give an example or two. And then Michael I'd like to turn to you. Well Victoria first of all you know that for years I have argued that whole natural products with their complex mixtures of constituents have different and often better effects than isolated compounds. And for many years I was ridiculed for writing about that and saying that. That's really changed. I think there's been appreciation of the fact that complex natural mixtures are different and valuable and research has changed. One example of what you asked for is milk thistle saliva marianum. This is a nontoxic plant that has the remarkable ability to stimulate metabolism of hepatocytes liver cells and protect the liver from toxic injury. We don't have anything like that in conventional medicine. We know a lot of things that damage the liver including a lot of our medically use drugs. But we don't know anything that protects the liver. This has even been used intravenously as a treatment for deadly amity to mushroom poisoning. It's something you can take I know students to take this before they go out the drink on an evening. People take it who have or exposed to toxic volatile solvents but an extremely useful plant. And we have nothing like that in conventional medicine. You just mentioned that we're beginning to appreciate the value of whole plants and it seems like one of the places where that's coming through really strong ways cannabis because even the lay you know people see folks selling you know CBD and they're somehow reassured there's no THC. And yet you know we know that it's the complexity of all of these different cannabinoids and terpenoids and other chemicals in cannabis that gives it its remarkable healing properties. Yeah that's a particularly complex one with so many different active constituents but this is the general pattern that plants have mixtures often of related compounds. You know one might be there and the greatest amount and reproduce most of the interesting activity of the plant but it's modified by all these secondary constituents that we've ignored until very recently. But as I say there's really been a shift now in research I think also in the practical knowledge of practitioners. Yes. And Michael you're going to add well no I was wondering Andy can you get intravenous milk thistle extract in this country or? No not as far as I know. I think the FDA is not approved. So we do a lot of poison plant information and work with a poison information center in this area. And there are always a half dozen people who collect ammonite mushrooms mistakenly thinking there are other mushrooms. And 96 hours later they're gone. Or they have a liver transplant. Right. If they're fortunate enough but you know in Europe you get the intravenous milk thistle and you survive with your liver. And there's a lesson there you know? Mother nature has figured this out a long time ago. And we're just sort of catching up which is why we're the primitive ones. There are 30,000 medicinal plants that indigenous cultures have used. And we've only looked at 300 maybe carefully. And out of that 325% of our prescriptions in your local pharmacy you know are based on. So there's a lot more to be done. Maybe we've gotten the low hanging fruit but now it's time to listen to the wisdom of mother nature. Michael you also speak of another fascinating concept that plants can potentially direct activities of people and you speak of a concept of calendar plants. Can you explain what those are? Sure. My colleague Greg plunkett and I and others work as I mentioned in Vanuatu in the south the southern islands and there's one island for example called a nitro island. It's an island of oh. 7 or 800 people. And they have gardens. They grow most of what they consume. And they know to plant their gardens when certain plants flower. So when flowers appear on a certain plant they know it's time to plant yams. When they appear on another plant they know it's time to harvest yams. When the needles of kasha raina a large tree turned brown they know that the sun has shifted and that it's time not to work so hard. You know stay out of the midday sun. It's too intense. So the plants are telling them something. Since they're island peoples they live in a marine habitat. And when certain other plants flower they know it's time to harvest sea urchins or certain fish because there's more fat. There's more meat in the animals the sea creatures. So plants really direct people's lives in that way. The message plants we also talk about if you if you are walking through a village and it's not yours in the old days people might attack you thinking you're a threat. But if you have certain species of plants that you put behind your ear the message is I come with no threat. I come in peace. So it's fascinating to study you know the implied messages from plants as well as their actual uses. So it's much more than just attunement with the seasons as certain things come into flower. Yes and also the alignment of the sun for example and the intensity of the sun we have a grant to study indigenous concepts of daylight and its effect on their plants and its effect on their lives in Fiji and Vanuatu. And it's absolutely fascinating to watch local people observe how the sun impacts their lives. And develop rituals to make rain. In other words to hide the sun when they want to plant their crops things like that. Mike you're a regular lecturer to our classes of fellows at our senator for integrative medicine. And your lectures are much appreciated. How much other contact you have with practicing physicians and do you see greater interaction between ethnobotanists and practitioners? Well I think the answer is a resounding yes at many different levels. Next week a group of fellows in emergency medicine under the wing of Lewis Nelson who Louis and I recently co authored a book the handbook of poisonous and injurious plants they're going to come to the garden for a tour of toxins poisonous plants to the New York botanical garden. And we get a lot of questions from emergency departments about what's this plant what's that plant? We can't offer advice as I say my patients are green. But we can offer a determination of the species to allow the emergency room physician to move forward or not with an intervention. At the same time New York City being immigrant community we do a lot of work with Dominican community for example and have for many decades. A dominicans use medicinal plants and they also go to clinics and emergency departments when. They're seeking help. Now the physicians in the emergency department or in the hospitals don't always understand plants. And they don't understand what their uses are and what people are attempting to treat. And so again my colleague of van der brook coordinates the program to teach physicians in our area cultural competency in dealing with a patient use of plants. So training physicians to be respectful to be understanding to speak the language of plants and to be able to have an interaction with the particular immigrant group about what they've been using and how they can then alter their treatment accordingly. So lots and lots of contact with physicians and healthcare providers. So it gets me to a final question which is what do each of you see as the future potential of plants in medicine? Well I think it's tremendous but I think there is enormous value to plant medicine. And I think this can go on side by side with pharmaceutical medicine. Our pharmaceutical drugs are often very valuable for the management of cute conditions of when the body is severely out of balance for getting them back in a balanced state. But when used long-term their negative effects often outweigh the benefits toxicity. The potential and long-term use to actually prolong or worsen conditions. And I think that the botanical preparations are much safer and often have a better quality of effect. And I'd love to see these both available to physicians and patients. And that doesn't mean just making herbal teas. I mean we might be able to make whole botanical extracts for example in standardized form that physicians would be comfortable using. But I think there's a tremendous need to educate physicians about this world and our center is certainly doing what we can to bring people up to speed. You know I do a lot of work in the Pacific where the clinics are rather bear because the field chip comes in once every 6 months. But growing around the clinics are gardens that are filled with medicines. And we've worked with a number of island nations to develop primary healthcare manuals based on plants working with the local departments of health and leading physicians. And I remember a person in pompei. Mary David during a cholera epidemic she was in her 80s at the time. She was living near one of the village clinics and they had run out of medicine for the treatment of diarrhea. And she was waving this branch at me and said but these kids my grandchildren who are the medical officers who were trained overseas they don't remember that I would give them this plant the guava tree when they had diarrhea. And isn't it a shame that they're turning patients away? So that was actually the idea to develop these primary healthcare manuals. And then diabetes is a huge problem in the Pacific amongst other public health issues. And one of my graduate students Christopher kit along who Andy knows well for his dissertation he worked on a plant called valeria nisida in the time melee AC family. What they call it mother of all medicine in Palau. Dala la Carr and they did a clinical trial with a group of physicians both local and international. And they found that drinking a tea of this plant twice a day combined with exercise and diet substantially reduced hemoglobin A1C at no cost to the patient. In other words a sustainable therapy. And because this was a randomized double blind placebo controlled trial they parsed out the diet and exercise. And the tea alone knocked the hemoglobin A1C down .6 in just 12 weeks. Now the other issue with dala la Carr with this plant it's sort of an entourage effect I guess of compounds because it also gives you energy. So the patients the participants in this pilot clinical trial said well they had more energy to exercise. And they weren't as hungry. So the reduction in hemoglobin A1C in this 12 week period was extraordinary. And it was from a plant that grows in everybody's yard. I like to think of that as side benefits as opposed to side effects. You know the side benefit of additional energy to be able to then do the additional salutes genic behaviors. Yes and one of your colleagues and former fellows Steve doctor Steven Dahmer was with us on one of these trips to Palau. And he was trying to la car as a T and he just noticed that it was an energizer you know? He reported that as one of its positive effects. So we've also tried to train physicians. Doctor Roberta Lee. Another one of your former fellows and colleagues and I put together an ethno medical training program that we implemented in Palau and brought healthcare professionals into the Pacific Islands to get firsthand experience in learning from our elders. Well Michael thank you so much for your more than four decades of work in ethnobotany for training physicians so that they have a greater awareness and obviously more tools at their fingertips and for all of the work you do. Thank you for teaching at our center and it's wonderful to be on the podcast with you. Yes indeed. Well thank you very much. I've just so enjoyed my interactions with the center and all of the people that we've trained and all of the people that we've taken to the field and studied with and it's just been a joy for me to watch the evolution of integrative medicine from those earliest days where people were saying well we can't study this. How do you do placebo acupuncture? It's impossible to the days today where these are mainstream therapies. So congratulations to you both. And I do treasure our friendship and look forward to lots of things in the future. Thank you Michael. Listeners this is doctor Victoria mazes. We would love for you to send us your questions. For Andy myself or for our guests. You can call us and leave a voicemail by dialing 5 two zero 6 two one three 9 5 zero. Again 5 two zero 6 two one three 9 5 zero or you can submit a question by going to our website AZ CIM dot org slash podcast. Again a Z CIM dot org slash podcast. We will review your questions and try to answer as many as possible on our programs. We hope you enjoyed this episode of body of wonder brought to you. By the Andrew wild center for integrative medicine. If you like the show please rate us 5 stars. Follow the show and leave a review. To learn more about integrative healing and the center go to AZ CIM dot org slash podcast. That's AZ CIM dot org slash podcast.

Richard Evans schultes Michael Harvard botanical museum Andy New York City Vanuatu melanesia Michael balik Michael balak institute of economic botany board of trustees of the Ameri Micronesia coast ina van der brook harbor botanical museum Victoria schultes New York botanical garden dick shelties Amazon
Wimbledon Re-Lived: 1973 - The Boycott

The Tennis Podcast

1:18:35 hr | 4 months ago

Wimbledon Re-Lived: 1973 - The Boycott

"Hi this is billie jean king. This is marion. bartoli mats wilander. this is mary carillo. i'm stan wawrinka. This is yannick noah. And you're listening to the tennis podcasts. Hello folks and welcome to the first of all twenty twenty. One wimbledon relived editions. Where today we're going to take you back to nine hundred seventy three time when david law was somewhere in between twinkle and a enormous presence in the yes. That's that's right. i was born. Ooh couple months after the wimbledon that we're gonna discuss a big baby. David big baby. I was i was normal sized. I think as it goes and in fact that sort of stayed the same until i was about seventeen and then things got ridiculous. Quite long rather than tool. Didn't they remember in the in the early days of the ricky chavez x. fm podcast culpa. Kington is quizzing. Stephen merchant on whether he was a tool baby. Baby mr mrs merchant. You've given birth to a basketball player. My feet commented on that. Yes khloe on birth. So it's nineteen seventy-three which many most of you might instantly recognize as the wimbledon boycott here. It's also the that. Billie jean king won the second of her triple crowns. The singles doubles and mixed doubles title. Which is extraordinarily itself but We've we've picked nine hundred seventy three. It is the boycott year. The title was won by yan. kodak side. we'll do a little scene set for you. Shall we now now that you know you. David laws status in the world overseas matinee. Were were irrelevances at this point. So we'll tell you what the rest of the world was up to one thousand nine hundred seventy three What was we springsteen up to. A nineteen seventy-three This is the important point. He was just getting started. Nineteen seventy-three his debut album greeting semester repower because released baker baking. I yeah lou. And springsteen unleashed onto the world in one year was the thought is good richard. Nixon was sworn in for a second term. Didn't go brilliantly that did it The watergate scandal with was happening at i listened very interesting. Podcast on that recently fascinating Roe versus wade happened in nineteen seventy-three that was the us supreme court overturning the state ban on abortion. Pablo picasso died. That's far more recently than i can't think of and of course it was the year of battle of the sexes. That the billy. Jean king one The time of much turbulence in tennis on lots of different fronts very little. If the podcast today is going to focus on billy jean king battle of the sexes the formation of the wpa. It'll be sort of mentioned tangentially but that was all happening wells marill. The men were also do nothing yet. It's a strange time of as you said turmoil but also expansion because tennis is become open a few years earlier and all these conflicting tolls and interests and it's it's growing massively but there's just huge politics in the way of at all except a headline in the new york times in nineteen in nineteen seventy three in january nineteen seventy-three stating this may be the year of tennis without politics intakes. Have an aged will news. Yes think it was. This idea that christopher was coming through and stan smith was was exciting. And finally the battles we're going to be played out on the court. Yes it's very much. The equivalent of that awful. Boris johnson tweet at the start of twenty twenty with his thumbs up. This is going to be a great year for the united kingdom jobe. He's never fallen into that trap. Again since frank. Keating in the guardian a describes the eighty p boycott thus he said. The plays revolts split tennis asunder shriveled. Nine thousand nine hundred seventy. Three's wimbledon championship to a halt bait box and kickstarted a dramatic overturned in the century long balance of power between the administrators and administered if any major worldwide sport it was an us versus them conflict if the newly formed union of male pro tennis players versus traditional tennis authorities. Such as they are jeff which had been simmering for years and finally boiled over. He's a heck of a writer by the way frank hating one of the greats and we'll put a lincoln show nights to that piece that met some i that because it's it just takes you on a journey you feel like you're part of nineteen seventy-three when you read it. Half baked botch is a a turn of phrase. I'll be adopting and feel. I will have frequent useful somehow. So we're going to set the scene for you. We're going to be hearing from. I mean billie jean king. For starters spoiler alert but Richard evans well cliff drysdale We spent a lot of people cities podcast and yet the oj. That we've got is sensational and we also have to fantastic guest editors for this. Show john and leah. You've been friends with the podcast. For longtime we've met met a couple of our live shows and honestly i'm sure all mentioned it again but the their research and contributions have really helped make this show what it is. Thank he john and leah. We hope that we've we've we've done those we've done these thoughts justice with the show but we'll set the scene for you before we bring in our esteemed voices in tennis terms the the top players in the world that time were later oth- rash illeana stars a stan smith. Ken raise will john nukem. Adrenaline panetta's is in the men's side. Obviously the defending wimbledon champion was stunned smith one in one thousand nine hundred seventy two and ps nineteen seventy-two was actually a depleted field on the men's side as well more. If that in a moment john commit won it. The previous is nine hundred. Seventeen seventy borne. So what happened in nineteen seventy three. Is that basically. The opener is come in but it hasn't sort of been fully formed and it's like it's like the pieces have been thrown up in the air and people are grabbing them. It's like in in the dome the crystal dome at the end of the crystal maze and people grabbing it silver and gold pieces of paper. It kind of feels a little bit like that. So in nineteen seventy-three. The situation that you had was the season was completely split into the first half through into may was one run by world championship tennis. Wctc and the second half was the grand prix which was administered by the idea for the f. is it was an the grand prix included the four grand slams John barrett said of the situation inevitably in a sport that it just drifted into a new situation without forethought or planning there were clashes of interests between the various factions. also golfs. that's not the tennis i know. Sport drifting in a new situation without full forethought or planning the one thing that strikes me. When you're describing that setter is that it makes today seem incredibly organized. We're talking about the fragmented nature of tennis and yet you you see the way it was. I don't know how they got by. When when i hear how all of it was set. Then yeah i mean. That's the thing. isn't it. What what john barrett describing. There's the situation where sort of individual pieces move. And nobody's ever moving the whole chessboard at the same time and thinking about the the bigger pitcher and you know where forty eight years later now and the situation situation remains agreement had arisen because of what happened in the two preceding years when will championship tennis men so the plays that had signed up to play world championship tennis. They hadn't entered the french. Open french championships. Nineteen seventy-one so not a boycott but just to sort of informal. We're going to be prioritizing this other professional tennis that we're learning more money for over the french open And that situation convinced tennis establishment that they had to act and they retaliated by banning all contract professionals so everybody playing world championship. tennis They they banned them from official. Atf tournaments eventually. An agreement was reached but it came too late to to secure the involvement if any of those players in the french open wimbledon. Nine hundred eighty. So actually you had severely depleted fields at those two tournaments in the year prior to the boycott year So wimbledon nineteen seventy. There was no labour. There was no roe rosewall. Wealth arash now john newcombe cliff drysdale. He will be hearing from a lot in this podcast. He was a professional player at the time. he's obviously become a broadcaster And he was the first president of the atp at that had been formed in the back. End of nine hundred seventy. He said we play as we were in the middle of two competing forces and had no say familiar. And i think the other important thing to understand about tennis at the time as well as this this splintered situation with the world championship tennis tour and the events. The other thing is that players were under the control of their national federations if they wanted to play a grand slam or they wanted to compete in the davis cup which was a still a huge event. Back in those days they had to be on good terms with the national federation. There wasn't an official computerized ranking system. That got you into an event you got into an event because you were picked to play the event by your national federations. Steve technology the vite good. Tennis rights uses a military analogy to describe the situation and he says the players served as unpaid Soldiers for that nations so if they didn't follow their orders they didn't play and that's very significant for the wimbledon boyko in nineteen seventy-three because boy hill more detail. But that event that basically a rose because nikki pellets. From the former yugoslavia decided to play in a professional tournament in montreal. Rather than a yugoslav davis cup tie against new zealand. That's the crux of the issue. That we've got here. It's amazing that they went into the open. Air without proper ranking system. Agreed isn't it. You sort of think of open-air is like right. That's when everything sorted. They decided how things should be. And from that moment forwards it was all organized. But that simply wasn't the case. Know five years later does nice flipping ranking system so in nothing that was as we understand it now nothing computerize. Nothing really organized. There was no entry system to get into tournaments as you say it was really on the whim of national federation or a tournament director and entrepreneur. Who decided somebody was an attractive plant to having a field. So they're stuck them in and this is sorry david this is a in the depths of the cold war here so to say the players to be at the whim of federations which in many cases were extensions of government would be very precarious place for an athlete given the load of athletes. Saw that career path is an escape from the regimes that they lived under. That's a very precarious place to be absolutely and You may sometimes think well. Somebody was regarded as world number-one before nine hundred seventy three. So how how do you get to that if you didn't have an official ranking system. Well i i read up on this. And if you ever look at the profiles on wikipedia of plas- like roy emerson it will say Highest ranking number. One in brackets lance tin gay. Now if you look up lanston gay. He is a british journalist. Who worked for the daily telegraph in the nineteen fifties to the nineteen. Eighty was the daily telegraph status card. Smart for thirty years his briggs he was the early bricks bricks needs. Needs this kind of power so the end of the year. He used to come up with his definitive list of who the players were ranked who was once or whatever and that's what people went by in terms of ranking players. Just just one person's view who traveled the world and covered the sports in great pets extraordinary to think briggs was deciding what the rankings were. Yes please actually. Let's start a campaign for that. To be the case the check me out rankings. The at rankings were were produced in association reading this from an article by james padilla on the hp website. He really good rate about the origins of it. And how they they employed a representative from an aerospace company to come up with the system in order to decide the rankings and then they just have reams of printed paper up and down the walls and on the ceiling in order to take probably chronicle who is wear and what tournaments counted and what results that had mazing really how how easy it is now by compassionate and then you published it once a month because it took so long to do mind vocals Well i i think if the nikki pitch moment situation as the shooting of franz ferdinand equivalent in in this tale Because it wasn't really about that it could have been something else that triggers this whole coming to ahead but it just so happened to be what nikki pillage decided to do is as you say he was from the former yugoslavia and yeah. He decided by professional tournament Rather than a yugoslav davis cup tie against new zealand. My favorite little little aside to this story is that the yugoslav federation didn't kick off straight away once he made that decision. They only kicked off once. They lost the tie three so if one rubber in that tie had gone differently than he knows what would happen. That year in tennis's assay felt like it was coming to ahead somehow. But yeah i they were like okay. Let's we're okay with that provided we win. And then they didn't win and it'll kicked off. And they decided to blame the whole loss on nikki pillage and they decided to suspend him for the rest of the year and at this point is probably a good time to bring in richard evidence who i mean. It's just the most wonderful historian of the sport and remember this period. Br vividly and david night were say lucky to get to pick his brains about all. These richard evans takes on the full background and context if the nineteen seventy-three wimbledon boycott back to nine hundred. Sixty eight when david decided enough was enough and he wanted to run the best tournament the world so he defied the all meetings that have been taking place and said next year wimbledon going to be over and because wimbledon was so awful loved as it carried so much the rest of the world had no option overnight open. Tennis had arrived. The first tournament was a bowl. Of and wimbledon sixty eight was open then the wolves started the was lamar hunt. Wctc the was. George mccall with his pro group though the avenue game trying desperately to hang onto that players and the whole thing fell between sixty eight. Seventy two was pretty chaotic. Thankfully some big little really knew what they were doing and who worked endlessly. Hold over the world jack kramer. Donald l. tried to get some ohesion going and during that time they the idea of a grand prix which has now developed into the toe of Was happening and being formed with tournaments that existed and some new ones coming in but nothing was going to happen until would be a proper players association. One was tried. Johnny passer ellen. John newcombe sat around a nightclub in rhode on those. The whiskey lay said rina really would go to something about this. It's fossil will being off game as being run by amateur officials and we are the players and we have no say. Eventually it happened. Don't tell everybody together in caesar's palace during that tournament and finally in nineteen seventy two at the us open. The atp was full. The association of tennis professionals jank kramer was persuaded to be able to. Ceo so juliette had gravitas. Some carried weight because the wrongly professional tool for years wimbledon champion. Huge fatal okay. So we approach wimbledon nineteen seventy-three does a lot of resentment in the locker room about the amateur stranglehold on what should be by. Then a professional spoke and of course conflicts arose and gustav had a davis cup tie and they wanted. Nikki pillaged the number one player to play in it. He sold. Who said he would of provisos is sold a letter they wrote to cliff. Drysdale sat in the holiday inn but went through this trying to work out the legalities and he'd soldier say yes. He tried to play but if he had professional obligations that weren't they hate it professional. I mean you have no idea how much the emitter establishment hated that would professional because it threatened the and he said i have professional obligations because honoring allan stone and the wctc doubles funnels in montreal montreal and if that clashes unprofessional i have to play the doubles and that happened. The was clash. And the president of the federation who i think was Nikki's ankle vandamme. And all hell broke loose and he was going to be banned originally for months. And alan heyman. Who was very slop once. Old lawyer president of the it f got involved in the negotiations and said we'll we'll aradio rodeos the sentence. It'll be six weeks which carry did right in two so suddenly nikki pillage. Who's gonna be banned from playing wimbledon. And they they were very clever because one of their officials said to dennis rolston around that time you guys old boy called any tone of the world. But you'll never boy called wimbledon. Really okay so cliff drysdale and a few of the others got to work in the locker room in rome and then it moved on to paris and there was militancy everywhere. The players were fed to the teeth. Nikki pillage wasn't one of the most popular players. He was very strange as long. A guy with a funniest ends view riera oregon but it was the principal. It was the idea that a amateur officials could tell a professional player where he could or couldn't play and by the time. The hotel move to nottingham milan down to queen's and wimbledon growing feeling that this was the moment that something had to be done a statement had to be made and so meeting stars in the bowels of the western hotel in mayfair with a new brand new nine months old. Atp headed by jack kramer a drysdale's president. Arthur ash is the el shafei. Mccormack's john barrett bat was the colour of the group stand smith and they started meeting. What do we do. Do we boycott if they will let village play. Do we boycott. And it became a huge story. I mean it was front. Page news on every newspaper in britain and the media. Got it completely wrong. There were about three of those who stood. What was guy gone david gray rick's bedroom in itself and the rest took. The obvious line was untouchable to the british public. You couldn't criticize wimbledon so the had to be a villain and they looked around fulfil. Ken rosewall wrote labor john. Newcombe these superstars these were lovely guys author. Asheville now didn't work. So who is going to be the villain. Jack kramer the cigar smoking american. Who come over here. He was very famous in in england as well because he formed this wonderful upon ship on bbc television with that maskell so the commentary at wimbledon via has been dan maskell jack kramer but suddenly he was the only possible villain for the british media. And my paper. The evening news to my horror came up with a front page headline go home kramer. We won't your type over here and they made it all about greedy players. Wanting more money mentioned money the never mentioned money. It was all about control and the amateur establishment new. Because they weren't that stupid that if the players got a real foothold in the running of the game that influence would be reduced and they wouldn't be able to lord it and basil ray with the secondary wouldn't be able to strut around queens and his pompous manner intel authorizing cox together off color. Your time's up. Well that's retreated treated. That's how players treated and the players. It's set enough and so there was a meeting those of votes in the west westbury. They voted to boycott and they also. Oh my god what we done. I mean as far as cliff. Drysdale going to see the minister of spot in westminster. Eldon griffiths was a fallen. Newsweek columnist and he was at the time he was minister. School and It had reached that level though. This was a drama. Big time engulfing the whole interest of of the sporting world and beyond with the players boycott wimbledon and they came back the next day. It was huge reservations or the bold. Mt cox was british. A felt kenai boycott john barrett was representing snazzy changes at wimbledon was john barrett one of the establishment figures and they came back and they voted again but it came down to an even vote and cliff drysdale had to cost the deciding vote and if it remained as it was it was boycott cliff could have switched it either way and he abstained. And jank kramer up to a said. I fell off my chair. I could believe he was other politician. And so with the abstention from cliff. Drysdale the president. It was the vote to boycott this. We're not talking. Friday before wimbledon and they drew up a list and sent it. It's always been contentious. I think he was about. Nearly ninety players came out of the drill so they had to redo the role. The only people who are members of the beat well was eighty was alias. Nauseam member identity could anyway. He elected to play roach. And taylor who was in a terrible situation. he was the british number one he was an eighteen th member. He knew that he played. He had a huge chance of winning wimbledon. his father was a union steelworker in sheffield and his unlike the rest of the country was saying you come. You come break. Ranks member remember the union and roger was told every which way he elected to play eventually lost in the semifinals but anyway and there was an australian coal ray. Kelly was a strange character and he's not play and everybody said yeah. Yeah yeah really We'll buy cheese bug Anyway those three players masasi taylor and kelly broke ranks and played by the rest of them and mike though some big heroes because players like andrea panetta Pound of butter. Lucci from italy in manila is from spain. Were under huge pressure from their federations and then careers were very. This is the problem that careers with tight to the federations and the was a huge amount of stuff going on but gloucester hotel had hit the jackpot brand new hotel. They decided to make a gesture and give free rules the wimbledon players because they wanted little bit of publicity little bit of publicity. That lobby was the center of the universe for three days. Cbs news nbc. News bbc they will all the lobby of the gloucester hotel interviewing players the they just hit the jackpot. Anyway it happened and The wimbledon boy called took place. The players go absolutely hamilton. The british press about They knew what they were doing. And alan haven didn't allen. Heyman made a huge mistake. And as a result of the boyd called the proconsul was formed. The players had three seats. The idea had three john. Linder directors head three donald dell wrote the rules and the game changed forever. How about that. I feel like anything. We anything we attempt to add to. That is going to be a disappointment. We didn't edit that. That wasn't several answers. That was one question one answer. He's recall yeah mind-blowing yeah extraordinary. We're just going to stay on the background for moment and not even pretend that we can. We can add anything better than what would all contribute is can. Let's hear from cliff drysdale. David speak to number years ago. Actually but it remains timeless and very relevant. Obviously cliff was a major player. In the whole situation he was the president of the newly formed. Atp so his his. Take on the situation. The richard described. Wctc was beginning to become a real fact in tennis grand slams and it for at war for the most part with the new professional game and the players were sort of stuck in the middle and we felt it at a certain time that we wanted to enjoy some independence and have a voice which we did not have it all. So that's what started it. And i was in the middle of it because i was playing of his. Those were my years for playing sixties and seventies and So i became the first president of the atp and at that point Very simply the international tennis federation had the feeling that it was losing some power because of this new horrible professional tennis so it's effort to maintain power was to tell the players that they had to be bound by it. If rules about where when they could play was not acceptable to us players. It was it was a position that they took that that they really could not sustain avenue but wimbledon forbid for and that year decided that they wanted to side with the it f. I thought it was a bad decision. and That was that was really the crux of the matter and after that there was never any question about it anymore. That never came up because it was really was an untenable position from them. That must have been quite a challenging position to put in. You have a strong view as players. And you as spearhead of that and nate and yet you've got a tournament of the size of wimbledon just at that point not prepared to budge that that must have been quite quite disconcerting in a way quite quite precarious. Feeling that you must have. You must have felt very strongly in order to continue. Under those circumstances you know The answer is yes an and it was. You don't do stuff like that likely. Nobody i it was. It was still the biggest was then and still is the you know the number one tournament in the world so to walk out on it and take that kind of position was was a huge deal but the cause was so on our side. I'm in a. It's it's hard to explain to somebody who wasn't there and it doesn't really understand because it sounds like these organizations that were trying to do things that might have been normal. They would definitely not normal. I mean the idea. The idea that international tennis federation could say to a national association in those days might national association would have been the south african lawn. Tennis association and that They the savage had to give me permission to travel outside of advocate to play tennis. The australians were caught up in that they had to stay off to the australian nationals before professional teams and play exhibition matches all around australia. I wasn't acceptable to professional tennis players. I mean it was insane it It's not an argument that anybody would even begin to make now so the that's the long on a the short answer. Is that opposition. So right that there really wasn't anything else to do. We going to go back to those controls knowing. So when i mean i understand that the time because it was wimbledon as well the british press were rallying behind them. How did you deal with that situation of oversee no. It's it's difficult to get your point across publicly. I suppose if wimbledon have got a lot of a lot of media behind them wimbledon done so many things right that In the history of tennis nine hundred and nine percent that was the one percent that was wrong And again it was not a question. First of all the british media. Were very very kind to me. They were very they were very personally. I mean. I think that they knew that we had a position that we believed in it and they didn't agree with it. It's hard to. It's hard to disagree with women than when you're in in london tournaments about to start the next day but i don't take There wasn't anybody that ever took anything personally against me. They they they targeted more. Jack kramer i think who is who is executive director. I was the president but it wasn't hard it wasn't hot. It was it was such a good. 'cause it was so logical and It was born out by events the week after wimbledon. it was never the same the week after women so it was a waste with that in mind that must give you great satisfaction to look back on and pride that you took a stand and it was ultimately accepted. I never had any doubt about it to be honest with you. David so Pride i suppose but It never occurred to me that this wasn't going to work out in our favor ultimately and we i looked to if to say gee i just. I'm i'm sure you don't realize what's really what it's taken. It's just not worth doing what you're doing but if if that's the way it's going to go then that's the way it's going to go Again as i said ninety. Nine percent of wimbledon is done terms of open tennis and promoting open. Tennis during the things that they've done have been not been spot on women. Particularly in in that case made a mistake and I have absolutely no hard feelings. I look i look back in those days. Wow that was. That was some years ago. You had that chat with cliff. Drysdale david but Yeah talk about tarnishing twelve and twenty twelve and it was. It was something. I was fascinated in time. Because i knew so little of this story. And i'm well. I'm very happy that we're able to now properly listened to that in the context of doing the show overall. Because and i think i mean i've always liked him as a commentator but i i knew so little of him as a tennis player he had a fantastic record at turns out against rod leiva. He used to beat wrote labor. You told me that just is lifted game. Play perfectly into his strengths but that he had. I still can't get over how brave it is to do what they did. The wear just about to have wimbledon again now having not had it for year for very different reasons but it's a year of wimbledon. Tennis player doesn't get to have and they don't get that many of them. It's it's a huge thing to do. yeah absolutely absolutely an and we'll talk more about that when we when we come on to talk about the actual tournament which we will do in just a moment but where the women you i might. Hey you cry. It certainly. What was ringing. Loudon in miami all the sort of early research we did on all of this because The w the women's tennis association had been formed the week before this wimbledon by billie jean king and the original nine and and various the female tennis players at the time they had formed it the week before and billie jean king hit become its president. So why won't the women involved in the boycott and were they also asked to be involved in the boy. I hit you. Cry and here is pitching king herself with the answer. I went to the men and asked if they'd like us to join them. Atp just started In a in seventy two. We adjust form the wj four days before the tournament. But i knew that was going to happen. Clothing anyway and i went to arthur went to a few players. Actually i went to probably three or four. i said. would you be interested in us going with you. So because we'll make it much more powerful statement. They go no place. We don't want the woman nothing to do with you. And i said i remember saying arts. We just made us stars of the tournament. Thank you and then we were in the lobby at the gloucester when we're trying to start the wpa. I and the media was just frantic. They're all sitting around waiting for us to be finished with this meeting and they kept saying. Oh you're going to have this meeting whether you're going to boycott or not right and i said no we're gonna we're gonna try to start an association and they didn't care. They only cared about the boycott which i knew would happen. And i said the men don't want us. They don't want us to join them i. We'd be very happy to at least explore that if they want us and they had no all if you look at the quotes back then it's pretty scary. They thought we should all quit and go back home and take care of her husband's in the course of what was ten bins in. Some of us were the breadwinner so it's just really truly old-fashioned than thriller shocked. Actually thinking back but anyway we came out of the meeting. I'm excited because now we have a w ta and own. You didn't talk about the boycott as we have an association you understand. We finally have one voice. We are two tours together. We had two tours. For two years i said. Do you understand that it's huge. They weren't too interesting side. We could do put cost about about that clip alone. i think but our next wimbledon relived Will be about the journey to equal prize. Money and and equality and i will dwell on such matters more in that podcast but that that clip is truly truly extraordinary aiming obviously obviously we all need that that things were old-fashioned than and that was open sexism just completely ingrained in the structure of the sport at but still still for that to be the reaction Yeah i find. I found extraordinary bundy. Jaeger told us. That's so shocking. In twenty twenty one to hear that when we did that interview with the that stopped me. My tracks i i couldn't i i don't know why but i had not. Well maybe i'm maybe. I'm the sexiest as well. I had not re thought about the role of the women in this particular storyline in and then too. Because i didn't know that she had made that. That suggestion to them and to find out just been dismissed out of hand. I couldn't believe it really. Sounds like she could believe and yet the moment voice and the exasperation is really telling something i love during for these tennis. Relief shows is going into the new york times archive going into the sports illustrated. But i always do it with a bit of trepidation because has been jinking says the some of the quotes from that time about women's tennis Horrifying and those are those are coming from greats of the game as well. We think makes it even worse in has bad enough a writer saying something negative about women's tennis but to hear from the top male players. How they feel about the women is is really tough to read now. I can't imagine what. It was. Like for billie jean king at the time and those women some people we think of as decent decent Decent people this isn't just in the stalls. It's very hard to reconcile very hard and look at aging king was right. They were the stars of that tournament. A lot of the write-ups of the men's event. You know it was unique but they describe it as pretty dreary really in terms of the quality of tennis whereas the women. You had kind of at the time. The big four or got to the semi finals. Chris ever billie jean king margaret colts and goolagong and As a patient in sports illustrated which says this will be remembered as the wimbledon in which benching king out for a union of harare on the deputy and became its president then after she'd won her fifth singles title and ninth doubles title with rosie cosell's and her third mixed doubles tied with in the his second triple crown wimbledon. She went back to eating her beloved ice cream. Vanilla which somehow does not seem quite right for her Apparently earlier in the act. Eaten some ice cream in miami and then vowed that she wouldn't touch it again until until two wimbledon a load of the a lot of the right write-ups retrospective write-ups about this boycott and was it was deemed a success both at the time and and in hindsight site the fines that it was the second most attended wimbledon at the time that attendance is barely dip to tool. And that's a lot of what i've read. Cited as evidenced that the boycott wasn't not effective and naturally wimbledon was a lot bigger than the players But actually anger second. Isn't that evidence that people wanted to come in which the women And billie jean king and the big four is described But of course it wouldn't have been seen that at the time. Because everything i mean still is to a lesser extent but everything would have been viewed through a horrendously sexist lens So what stars did we have in. The men's tournament will stand smith. The defending champion was originally. The top seed and lena stores e the second seed now. Lena tells the did not boycott It remains were at the time that his romanian federation wouldn't allow him to boycott and wouldn't allow him to be a member of the a certain was bumped up to top seeds. Joe neekam would've been third seed. Arthur ashe cameras rosewall. Tom orca roy. Emerson old people. That weren't there. Alex metre valley would have been thirteenth seat. He was bumped up cinema before yang code. Rush would have been fifteenth seed. He was bumped up to number two And richard taylor would have been sixteenth seed and he was bumped up to number three. So those top four seeds illeana stove. Janka russia taylor and alex metro valley As richard evans described though with so many rituals that they had to redo the draw and there were fourteen nine lucky losers in the drawer that year we went through and counted seventy eight in total if you count qualifies as well. I mean an and i looked at the women's draw for comparison than the eight qualifies and one lucky loser. Treaty the luckiest of leases a great line from collins that he said. I've beaten players in this draw. I mean we were some. You know we won't. We wanted to speak to a couple of the lucky losers and we were going through. So they've googling names and we're talking a lot of people that ever wikipedia page and don't have any search results when you put the names into google. I'm sure they were service splendid tennis players. I mean you'd have to be to even been the qualifying obviously Yeah but we're not. We're not talking about you. Know people just on the brink of manger wimbledon tennis talking about people that would have been walking around. Why'd i being in a wimbledon drawer. I spoke to one of phil civetta. he was bush play lost in qualifying was in that climate to sign up his lucky loser and yeah he describes it. He describes it as a wonderful dinner party story. The year he got to play wimbledon. He played an australian player and lost in lost in five sets But you know had a fantastic experience and got to play on court number seven The prize money was a hundred pounds. Felicia leasing in the first round And he's he's biggest memory of it was saying balk in the locker room Mobile book ended up being one of the stories if that tournament because the absence of a load of the the top names enabled a seventeen year. Old book To to break through and have a run and sort of announced himself onto the world stage in similar for jimmy connors as well and so if you fill civetta told me a lovely sort of wistful story about saying bjorn borg in the locker room and the fact that they were they were pigeon holes in the locker room. Full found fans. Good luck messages that had been sent in An most had one or two stuffed in a and buell balk had to be assigned additional supplementary pigeonholes and this was at a time when nobody knew hupa on bloomberg was you know he'd sort of come from nowhere and all of a sudden he was getting all if the fan male Say that was just really interesting. Sort of color. To to the whole experience there were so many players in that sort of situation just thrust thrust into a home grand slam is most of them. Were british weren't they and with this incredible opportunity. In an moment you had amateurs american college players and tennis stars. He ended up losing in the fourth round. Two in american college player called sandy mayor Now new jersey claimed he had been ordered personally by his president ceausescu to to play the tournament to not boycott and then after he lost. He said he'd received orders to tank now. They won't believed e the story at the time. I've no idea what the truth is. But both of these things sound plausible to me today. They one wants to go down. This speculation with me. Okay right. it's with with him. He was he so hard to know what to think about because he was always playing the fold and he was always controversial in some of it was hilarious and and solve it was up c. e. objectionable and you don't know what to believe with him what to believe with ceaucescu and it seems plausible. Chow jesse would have been pulling some machiavellian strings in the background. So what about yemen k dash he. He was not an api. We're not talking about some some college kids that go the opportunity of his life and went on a fairytale dream run to the final. He was absolutely not nobody. And i think that's a misconception. I think if your average sports fan knows about the wimbledon boycott. They think nobody wanted that. As you said yang kodak was already a two-time. French open champion. He he was a clay-court to really but it really sounds like he'd actually started to make some real progress on grass in in nineteen seventy-two he'd reached the wimbledon semifinal and before that even in nineteen seventy one. He'd reached the us. Open final on grass. Heaton john newcombe. In the first round he was unseated and beat new comey also be authorized that tournament and ended up losing to stan smith in the final. So absolutely he was. He was competent very very competent on grass and took advantage of of draw. he He wasn't allowed to be a member of the atp. Like like many members if if eastern bloc countries but he did go on record saying he didn't believe the boycott was justified. He said i was not a member of the atp. Pitch was suspended by the atf. The atp was going against the it f. I was not okay with the pitch suspension. The problem was the yugoslav. Tennis federation made the suspension. But wimbledon was organized by the england club. They had nothing to do with pitch. In this case so. I think the decision to boycott was not right Now there's a lot of nuance in the argument in terms of. Who's making what decision in. Who has power. But the impression i get from from people talking about the boycott and the formation at the atp and the situation in general it was basically establishment versus non establishment breaking up the power as as a unit rather than making distinctions between who was making. What decision the fact is they felt like the establishment working against the players and wimbledon while they didn't make that individual decision in relation to nikki. Pillage were very much politics. That self sustaining establishment But interesting interesting that. He went on the record explaining that say his progress. Three dejoy had a couple of close battles with with indian players Majia gino that player david. I think i looked them player up when we went to try to find some of the place in the troll. He you know in terms of looking for. And that's that's one of the interesting things i mean. You're quite right a lot of the players that you find the there's really nothing to find and then you'll find others where they've got. They've got an academy or they've running tennis club a tennis player. Who's running a club in in india account. Remember that whether that was him. But you know this everybody's got some sort of story But but yeah that does not household names as i would know them. Anyway he beats. Vj machar's in the quarterfinals. And then he comes up against roger taylor in the semifinals whose courses britain's top player chose not to boycott. This was his big chance. You heard richard evidence described the pickle the that he was in his father. Being a diehard. Die hard unionist So bridget taylor does play and he takes semifinal into the fifth set. There's a rain delay. Four five in that set and when they come back. Kodak doesn't lose another game for detailer hit twenty double-faults in that much and on the advice of yaroslav drop need the nineteen fifty four wimbledon champion once. They came back after the rain delay Kodak was targeting the detailer bike count and that is what made the decisive difference so then he heads into a fine. He's up against alex metro valley. Who would've been the thirteenth seat but has been bumped up to four seats. They had the second seed against the fourth seat in the final And she trail the head to head. Five and one Lost to match. At wimbledon three years previously in five sets but kodak had the greater experience. It was his fourth major final metro. Police i should one grand slams at the french open. By this point k dash members. I knew his game and he knew mine. I was afraid of him because he was better than everybody thought he was an all around player. Who could passing shots. Drop shots and lobs. One counting on was because i played three major finals and he had played none he might be nervous from the beginning and that is exactly what happened. He started badly he was double faulting and missing returns and passing shots. My tactics were not miss a lot. And just keep the ball in the court without trying something special. I say served in his body alert. David you've You've watched some of this final. What's this morning's actually. Some really high quality footage on youtube. That i found first of all. I thought it's quite interesting. The sports illustrated writer that found saying that the the quality of the final was dreary. I think the some good shot making that. I'm looking at in the match but what really strikes me most of all these win. Kurdish is serving for the match. And he looks like he's hyperventilating to me. He looks like he's just desperately trying to control his breathing gonna crack moustache by the way and anyway. He seals that on match point seven. Volleys wins the points and then stops right next to the net and then just hurdles from a standing position in in just total joy. I think up to. I think this is a bit awkward. If hurdled the net. And then you've got a great the but just beat. And he goes up to metro valley and he puts his arm around metro. Valley's neck as an you know you've got one bloke is absolutely joyful and the other one's got it and you got the sense that mitch already sinking. We just get off. This isn't a great for me but anyway he was certainly respectful in in defeats and then kurdish cousin sits next to his chair on the floors and really trying to take it all in. It seemed to me And and i think his answer about the boycott carton. And i've got the sense from taylor. These people the having to wrestle with it in the right mind as well. They know this is a thing and and they've decided to play and they've got good reasons in their own mind for it. But i doubt it's cut and dried in many cases. They interesting that he say. He was hyperventilating. The i think that very much tallies some quotes read from him that he was really putting pressure on himself to win this. Actually i mean he knew what an opportunity this was. He said i had to win. That match you know. I think for his age it was important. He wanted to be seen as much more than just a clay courter and he knew that it was ahead of chum's he compares it to nukem playing now wilhem bunga in the nineteen sixty seven final road labor playing marty malaysia in nine hundred and sixty two he. Sometimes you play these players and you have to take advantage of those opportunities. Even though he had that five one head-to-head deficit with metro vavi he. He's still fancied himself. As the favorite i think in that match and i guess that explains why he was so under pressure at the end of it trying to finish it off And then actually. After wimbledon he he backed it up. He reached the us open. Final in nineteen seventy three as well. His his fifth major final and. He thinks he thinks that was his chance to be world. One does name. Yeah he thinks if he if he'd won wimbledon and the us open he have been ranked number. One would have deserved it. I need and he never got. Yeah he he's a interesting one. Yankee dash we saw him in public critique of his books. Didn't we the french open which i found really interesting. And it made me realize how little we save him and how little i knew about him other than he was the wimbledon winner in the boycott year. Obviously billie jean king knows plenty about him danced with him at the wimbledon bowl. That year here is billie jean talking about yankee. Additional say stan smith who we heard her saying with was one of the biggest hit by By boycotting in nineteen seventy. Three's the defending champion up pm. Well here's a static. I mean he said thank. Thank you to the boycott. He said do you think. Do you really think i'd be dancing with you. Know if if everybody been in the tournament he said what unbelievable opportunity for me for my country. i think it was still czechoslovakia. Then so it was wonderful and i always liked yawn anyway. He was always been very wonderful. Nice and cared about tennis cared about the younger players. So i always. I liked him a lot. So i was very happy for him but he was great. You saw static. He knew he understood. It was an opportunity. We're not presented opportunities often and he took advantage of it. I'll tell you took. The real hit was stan smith. Because he wanted seventy two. He's defending champion. He boycotted trumbull. And that was very courageous. I thought i always appreciate stand for that crafted. In the heart of germany's black forest monkey forty seven. Jin is a favourite. Among the world's finest bartenders with an unmatched array of botanical from juniper lavender peeled citrus fruit ending and berry. It's the perfect spirit for an cocktail. Now get five dollars off your first of monkey forty seven hundred sixty dot com using the promo code. Jin forty-seven that's dr is e. l. y. Dot com must be twenty one and over valid for new customers only void where prohibited monkey. Forty-seven certainly german and certainly leave wunderbar. Hello folks this edition of the tennis. Podcast is sponsored by hellofresh. America's number one meal kit hellofresh cuts as stressful meal planning grocery store trips. So you can enjoy cooking and get dinner on the table. In just about thirty minutes or less catherine. Is that your normal meal. Planning routes ate my normal meal. Planning routine is extremely hungry before going to the supermarket and that is ill advised because you come away with crisps and kabir right. Well you better guy samat for some advice. Then because he's a hellofresh expert. What do you like about it man. I like all of it and mainly the fact that encourages me to cook things. I would never normally cook. Because i didn't have the ingredients. Or frankly the know how. I cooked delicious sausage. Excuse with hadi fresh which was fun to do and very tasty. Talk me into it. Something for everybody to enjoy with all recipes designed and tested by professional chefs and nutritional experts to ensure deliciousness and simplicity sagata hellofresh dot com slash. Fourteen tennis use code fourteen tennis for up to fourteen. Free meals. Plus free shipping. That's hellofresh dot com slash fourteen tennis and use code fourteen tennis. So was the boycott a success. Now this is one of the the the very pertinent questions that john and leah august For for this this show in front of the poets put to us. I mean they've they've informed. Lots of the directions. We've taken with this and questions. We've also varies contributed say many. Thanks to jonny lee but the big question isn't it. Where would tennis be now. We're not for the the boy caught. Did it forever changed the direction of the sport. We've had richard. Evans describe how badly it was received at the time in the british. Press of told you how load the attendance was. Three hundred thousand seven hundred and twelve people the second highest in tournament history But the the place did not win the battle of if public perception but it's widely perceived. The the boycott was successful. They ultimately the plays did gain the freedom and control it's perceived as the moment tennis grew up players were no longer dictated to by their national federations. They could go anywhere and play where they wanted. Once it was obvious to the amateur officials that the players were willing to give their ultimate dream the chance to play wimbledon for the sake of another union member. The jig was up from then on the players would have the power months later. The ranking system was established. And this from from frank keating who we we talked about earlier by the time boo retired at the age of twenty five in one thousand nine hundred. On the wimbledon champion was pocketing a handsome wimbledon men's champion. This probably should be a handsome twenty one thousand six hundred pounds only ten years earlier. the winner's prize is ninety. Nineteen seventy-one gentleman singles when it was almost seven times less poultry. Three thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds. What came between those two gents and plays areas to such an astonishing inflation. It was the nineteen seventy-three boycott and it's probably for that reason. That when tennis reaches boiling points and you could very much argue that we're we're on at the moment that we've been simmering for awhile. A boycott is thrust into the conversation as a a very possible scenario possible lever that can be pulled by by factions in tennis wanting to to gain power and again. This is something david e cliff. Joyce de la in twenty twelve in relation to remove a boycott the swirling then now it was coming to ahead then led by andy roddick In relation particularly to super saturday at the us open the players wanted to pull their weight To to get rid of see possessively which was seen as you know while a fantastic thing for us. Telly the women's final in the two men semi finals being played on one day and then the men having to come back and play their final the next day for the players. It was a ludicrous situation. So this was something you asked. Cliff drysdale about back then in two thousand twelve. I just think that the whole atmosphere of the politics of tennis has improved a lot I think that The the grand slam tournaments really understand the game and the promotion and they learn from each other. I guess so I think that the the they realize that they certain things. That probably are unfair. Need to be changed so there's talk about. Us open changing. It's the date of its final to accommodate the players. 'cause they right. I mean everybody has said it for years. It's not like this is an argument. That hasn't been made before to try to play a semi final five set semifinal and then the next i play the finally very unfair very unfair. You were in that position would you. Would you believe there for that that it is possible for them to to lobby and discuss and probably get while they won't without ever needing to take any drastic formula action like buying a boycott. I don't think that's on the cards. I think you talk about The the threat. Because what we did back in early seventies i suppose is there I just don't. I don't think it's going to happen because i think there are clear. A heads now. Really i it. If and wimbledon in that year was just they were still so steeped in the process and hadn't game hadn't opened up it was just there was the first like the third or fourth year of opening up so they really didn't have any history of understanding. What real professional tennis was about. They were just learning. That's different now. And i think they know that the players have got a point and i think they would like to accommodate them. It's not in the interests of the grand slams to aggravate the players and if the plaza got a legitimate point. Then i think they can about it. I was nine years ago. That cia wall cliff drysdale told the players who right and again history has proven the place to be right looking back. It's it's hard to believe that they used to play that sheduled the final weekend of the usa and he didn't think that would be a boycott. He didn't think a boycott was the right thing and he thought that because he thought everybody had clearer heads. I found that an interesting An interesting turn of phrase now. There were rumors lost. You want that there would be. Us open boycott. They never materialized whether that's because something changed because these rumors were just not accurate in the first place. I deny but with the pta stuff that rumbled at the western southern open the eventual formation that those remiss swirling do you think that could be a boycott in modern tennis g. Think it's it's something that plays looking for extra power and influence members of the pta could look at nineteen seventy-three and think. Hey that worked. Why don't we try this or at least threaten to try this. I think something. They have to have in their pockets as a possibility. Otherwise they have no teeth actual If if the establishment if the tournaments if the atp if the grand slams a prepared to stare them down and say no. We're not doing what you want. And then not prepared to ever boycott. Then they'll never get anywhere that the that's ultimately the bargaining position that they're in that said in twenty twelve and shortly after his cliff right. He said they didn't need to boycott in order to get what they wanted in. And if you look at the prize money is risen in the early stages of grand slams for instance in in the time since then so they have my progress. I think what's interesting at the moment. In the pta. Professional tennis association has now organized itself in a much more official way in terms of having a management board and an advisory board and professional people behind it rather than just a big name plays with with a lot a lot. Society got a twitter account. They've got a twitter accounts and they're making noise and making the the position. More more clear. I still think there's a long way to go But it something clearly. That isn't going to go away. And the atp have have seen fit to reply to it overnight in fact is we. We talked to you right now and to to establish its position that there's a clear overlap between the two and we're the ones in charge of the toll where the wounded given professional tennis players. Their seats at the table in all negotiations. And we've got a blueprint for the future and and and and this shouldn't be necessary as what they're basically saying. well clearly. that's not completely working. Otherwise you wouldn't have. Pta bubbling up and building. You just wouldn't have that if they were completely satisfied. So i would imagine the the likelihood is that they will find a way to compromise eventually and and improve conditions and give some of these plants are asking for otherwise it's gonna escalate get the mall to make our tennis relived boyko episode that extra bit relevant. They appreciate. what do you think matt. Gosh that truth is i really don't know which is why i'm interested to hear david. Speak on it there. I mean as an eye side. I just find it so hard. To measure the temperature of of the political activity in tennessee. They seem to be these peaks and troughs We seems to be really hot topic around the us open time or straining open by the apply meetings and they gathered together. And then simmons down a bit. So look i. I really don't know H e of suddenly come out against it very strongly once again that a statement overnight saying that further fragmentation is the biggest threat to tennis growth. I think was the line in the in that statement last night. Personally i'm pleased at eight. The atp is building a proper structure at last to felt like they probably should have had more of this em- place when they launched nothing that would have sent him strongest statement. It would have got a lot more people on its side. I think actually a lot of people agree that the players have got a very strong case here. it's just the way they've gone to bounce it has been has been the problem So yeah i'm actually quite encouraged by the steps the pta is taking. I just wish they'd done it But yeah let's see Well they've got an twitter account. So they mean i also think the the the authorities that we're talking about it sounds like it's just a different scar. You heard the way we should have described the superior Nature of the tone of those of the international lawn tennis association federation at the time and they just wanted plans to get back in the books. And that's not the tone you get now by comparison. It's not i mean the fact that the atp of responded to this so quickly anna ways even at the formation of the pta. When wasn't even clear what that meant they were they were pretty swift internally and externally to address. The situation shows a certain level of seriousness with which they're taking it Which i find interesting. They could just sort of swat it away and gave was is relevant. This these silly little pies thinking they can challenge us that stephanie. Not their attitude which which is interesting in itself anyone looking to find the pt pa on twitter by the way need to know that at p. is already been taken on twitter by Parent tested parent approved. So they are at. Pta players compete epa tennis. But that's just me. Maybe that's taken by parents. Tested parent approved tennis water. Treat it has been to go back to nineteen seventy-three the the year of the law the law the springsteen and the boycott. That's what is known as phil. Yeah really has been destroyed. Thank you so much to john leah. Fuel contributions to this episode. Wouldn't have been the same without them. We really appreciate the time effort and diligence that all guest editors putting into to these shows. It's really quite touching ready. And it's all pleasure to bring it to life with the not inconsiderable. Help of billie jean king richard evans and cliff cliff drysdale. Who have absolutely made this episode. What it is chris. Albert lee is our executive producer as always we have our mass goats. Billie jean's is pricked up many times during this episode. Because i keep saying her name even though it's not her name but she she doesn't quite understand that we've got brogue scouser mouse lindsay's and on a mention if predictions in this episode to none of us have let any of them down. What a treat. david matt thank you so much fuel contributions and you'll research particular matt Yeah glorious as always we'll be back with one. More wimbledon relived episode before the championships begin. And then you getting full teen daily wimbledon podcasts. We think it could be the best most exciting my significant wimbledon in our histories. And i know it's our job to big up the tournaments and big up the podcast. But we really do think that day a comfort this storm and we got nineteen twenty twenty and the one on nineteen is going for the calendar slam possibly the calendar golden slam got serena. Run twenty three. It's just it's not much say one more relieved. One wimbledon preview daily wimbledon. Podcast join us. We'll speak teasing.

tennis cliff drysdale billy jean king jack kramer john barrett John newcombe nikki pillage stan smith jank kramer wctc yugoslav federation gloucester hotel davis Drysdale bartoli mats wilander mary carillo stan wawrinka yannick noah ricky chavez mr mrs merchant
430: Dr. Andrew Weil SHARES His Personal Secrets for Staying Mentally Sharp and AGING IN REVERSE

The Ultimate Health Podcast

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430: Dr. Andrew Weil SHARES His Personal Secrets for Staying Mentally Sharp and AGING IN REVERSE

"Coming up on the ultimate health. Podcast well i think i've spoken my truth. I don't tell people to do things that i don't do myself. And a what. I write about comes from my own insights one of the very consistent kinds of feedback that i've gotten from readers over the years as people say that i put into words what they've been thinking but hadn't put into words for themselves and that it validates know what they've been thinking what they've been feeling So i mean that's one possibility That that my writing resonates with people in some way that helps the mix feel-good hello and welcome to it all the podcast episode. Four hundred thirty. I'm jesse chapas. And i'm here to take your health to the next level. Each week will bring you deep conversations with health and wellness leaders from around the world. This week dr andrew wiles back on the show for round number three dr. Weil received a degree in botany from harvard and an md from harvard medical school. He's the founder and director of the university of arizona center for integrative medicine. The center is the leading effort in the world to develop a comprehensive curriculum in. Integrative medicine doctor wireless founder and partner the growing group of true food kitchen restaurants. He's an internationally recognized expert on medicinal plants alternative medicine and the reform of medical education. Doctor wyle is the author of many scientific articles and fifteen bucks. Highlights of our conversation include travelling at age seventeen impacted dr whilst perspective on the world. Doctor wyle recalls. His personal experiences with cannabis psychedelics traveling around latin america writing about healing and alternative medicine evolving your physical activity as you age and the best foods for brain health. If you'd prefer to watch versus listen this full interviews available over on youtube you can get there by going altima health podcasts dot com slash youtube and bichurin subscribe while. You're there if you get to the end of this interview you feel inspired you've learned a lot and you feel like this information could benefit someone in your life. Please share the episode with them and help the show continue to grow. Thank you so much without further ado here. We go with dr andrew. Weil doctor wyle. Welcome back to the podcast. How you ben. I've been good good to be here again round three. We're going to get into some new ground and there's always so much chad about with you. Some excited to get back into good so as somebody who travels in spends a great deal of their time between two places. You're you spend a of your time in tucson and then on cortes island. Abc the pandemic in the restrictions on traveling. How has that been. It's been hard first of all. It's been almost two years since able to have visitors from the states. Come up to see me in the summers canada and also i really have not been able to do much traveling as i'm used to for instance i i really wanna go to japan. I have business over there that i have to do. I've been wanting to make a trip to portugal. And all that. So i've had to put on hold so right. Now you're nbc though. I am in dc happy to be here power this summer gardens looking terrific. I've been Just this morning. I was harvesting a lot of green beans and pickling cucumbers. I make my own. Pickles fermented pickles. Which are terrific I the tomatoes are just starting to ripen. I'm gonna have sweetcorn in about a week Lots of berries Lettuce so i've been very happy. And i know you've been married twice in your most. Recent marriage only been a couple of years so when interesting time to get married with the whole pandemic having lockdown. How how has that been transitioned back into being a married man again. Well it takes some work at my age after. Say but you know. I married a canadian and that's why able to opt to canada because the borders been closed. Fortunately it's about to open. Thank and i'm really looking forward to that nice. So right now she is able to be with you on the island will she has. She's very connected. The island and has been here and i'm able to be here because i'm married to her. And what's the history of connecting with cortez island. Initially i mean. I looked before we can get a map and there's quite a few islands within that within a relatively small area there what what drew you to cortez to up here. And this is a long time ago. I think it was about nineteen eighty three and a workshop center Had started here called holly hawk and it was in. Its first or second year and one of the people who who founded that had read by books and came and found me. I remember it was on a winter night and he drove out to where i was living at the end of long island and we had a nice chat and he told me about cortez and holly hawk and wanted me to come up there so i agree the following summer to come up and teach a workshop on herbal medicine and i think four people were in it and we met outside under an apple tree and i drove up and just i remember on the ferry coming over here falling in love with the place i just never had seen Such scenery like this the mountains and the ocean and for someone who had been living in the desert it was it was so refreshing and i love the people that i saw here so i began coming up regularly in the summers to teach at holly hawk More and more people attended those workshops. And i always dreamed about having a place of my own but i could never find. The there was very little property available and I almost gave up and then somewhere in the in the nineteen nineties. I just happen to be in the right place at the right time and was able to get the place i now live and build a house on it. And what's the health and wellness community like in general. They are talked about in the early mid nineties. When you first you know got establish their versus now has it changed a lot. It has changed first of all You know when i was first here it was there was one general store To places that you can get gas Getting food was really a problem and you had to depend on people with gardens. Now there's a great natural food co op which makes life much easier I think many people who live here have been self reliant and very active physically That always appealed to me and But cortez has changed. Its gets a lot of visitors. At least pretend amac you know. A lot of tourists come from apart from europe from canada from the us So it's become more known more populated just like every place and also It's the effects of climate. Change have been very evident here. The oceans have been getting warmer with change in the marine life We just had this unbelievable heat dom over us and nobody had ever seen temperatures like that here. Actually it was hotter year A couple of days and it wasn't arizona while incredible mentioned yeah. I don't know what the future will be. You know there might bring big changes to the forest to the potential for fires You know it's all unknown and you mentioned the warming of the ocean there. I know it's still relatively cold. And i know last time. I think it was last time we chatted. That was practice that you had adopted where you'd go in the ocean on a regular basis as a cold. Plunge therapy is that something. you've kept. yes. I still try to do that almost every day. I i may not stay in very long and the on how cold it is and But i i liked that. It feels very refreshing. Really liked the feel of saltwater on on my body you ever do the cold shower thing. I do sometimes do that as well. And that's what i do in tucson. Because they don't have an ocean there so dr while you've been on the show like we talked about two times before this we've covered a lot of your story in bits and pieces over those conversations but i wanna really take some time in and get into your story and who made you who you are today. So let's let's take it all the way back to being a kid growing up in philadelphia. I know you're a women's sure. Women's are women's hat store right. Oh sound very uninteresting okay. Let's let's talk about being a kid there and in growing up with parents who are entrepreneurial and had this this place of business. I think the best thing that my parents did for me was encouraged my curiosity and independence and really Tell me to follow my my passion. i grew up in a row. House a real city person. I really was not very connected to the country or nature One of the influences on me was My family doctor who was a general practitioner he. He was a model of the independent General practitioner of the mid twentieth century. He is office was about three blocks from my house. I could walk there. Has patients loved him. he was really busy. He made house calls And he took an interest in me from an early age and encouraged me to go into science. He wanted me to go to the medical school. he would let me when i was in in high school. He let me See patients with him and You know he was. He was defiant influence on my life. I was always interested in science and biology. I i didn't know about medicine. I did not see myself being a doctor like him But he had a had a great influence on me. And i was also always interested in travel and i really felt i wanted to get out philadelphia and i did big time after i graduated high school. I had an amazing year between high school and college. I won a scholarship to an experimental school gold. The international school of america that took a group of twenty two students and six faculty members on an eight and a half months trip around the world and we lived with native families in in many countries Studying various subjects and that totally broke my ties with home and really gave me a sense of other cultures that no other people thought differently. Eight differently And that there was a much wider world out there and that made me very restless. It was very hard for me to settle down after that and go to college When i came back from that year I was seventeen. When i did that I entered harvard college. I had no idea what. I wanted to study I just had too many interest. And i ended up by chance majoring in botany which was a very lucky choice I found this course the courts cadillac plant human affairs in that title. Intrigued me It was taught by a man named richard evans. Schulte's who was the director of the harvard. Botanical museum is now considered the father of modern ethno botany and he became one of my i say he was the second really important mentor in my life and i was associated with him for a long time. He really encouraged me to go to south america to study all sorts of psychoactive and medicinal plants. And i was always interested in plants. I think i've talked about that on the show before You know something that. I got from my mother. She got from her mother I had a little garden and back in the row house but being connected with that botanical world Was a very lucky choice for me and gave me a background very different from what most medical doctors have. Let's unpack that year of travel at seventeen because that's such a pivotal time in life when you were growing at such a rapid rate and making big decisions that are gonna dictate. You know a lot of where we go in life so when you got on the plane start traveling around. Where was the first place he went to what we spent a few weeks going through the us and then went to hawaii. I think it was the year before. Hawaii became a state and it was fabulous. I loved it there and then from there we went to pan. And so that was the first Stop outside the country. Lived with two families. One outside of tokyo. One outside of kobe It was a real culture shock and in the family in tokyo there was no common language. no one in the household spoke english and i didn't know any japanese But i had an amazing sense of familiarity in japan You know. I think i must have had a past life there I remember my as is pretty young. My mother used to read to me at a book of japanese Fairy tales. And i remembered that they made a great impression on me at any rate when i got to japan there was something about. I was in a very traditional household Slept on the floor. You know with eight food. I'd never had before. But i just it felt very at home to me and Ever since then. I've had a very strong connection with japan have gone there. Many times spent a lot of really a lot of wonderful times there. I have a lot of japanese friends. I love japanese aesthetics. Food culture I've learned many things there so that that was a quite remarkable experience and then from there We spent time in hong kong still a british colony In cambodia thailand india. egypt And then turkey in europe and at the end of that. We ended up in In london and i really didn't want to come home You know. I wanted to cheap at it. I just did not want to come home. And ever since. I've had that travel bug and i think my perspective on the world and on medicine and food all that has been very shaped by experiences in other cultures. And i i think one of the sad things about North american culture is how few people have really have had that experience of the us especially in such a big isolated country and awful lot of people really have not had any experience of other cultures. i once read that Shockingly low percentage of people in the us. Congress had passports That's that's very sad. Yeah no definitely and given this had such a profound influence on you and help you know steer the course of your life from there when your daughter got a little bit older did you give her a nudge to travel. Yes she's she's got a real itch to travel as well first of all. I took her with me from the time she was very young. I think When she was one year old we took her. I remember taking her to brazil We took her to hawaii. She was in japan when she was a i. Think three or four. So i don't know how much of that she remembers but she she loves to travel. We love to travel together and she Like me has a real sense of What else is out there. And it sounds like japan had the biggest influence on you at that age doing that. That your experience did any other places have a profound experience on you that sticks beyond that year i remember having a very strong sense of When i was in egypt and living with an egyptian family and seeing some of the ancient stuff there that that made a great impression on me as well I but i don't think i can't remember any place that i felt as connected with as i did in japan as i said i i really think i had a past life there and you mentioned how tough rita come back to the us and continue on living conventional life going back to school in in continuing on your path. What do you think it was that brought you back. And then kinda rebounded you for a period of time before you traveled again while i had to come back i mean it was enormous pressure on me to go to school and and decide what i wanted to do in life. Everybody was always asking me. You know what are you going to be what you wanna do in life and it made me very uneasy because i always had too many interests and People always criticise me. For not focusing and having too many interests at one of the reasons i went to medical school was shut them up. You know that people would stop asking questions if i went to medical school. I still didn't think. I wanted to be a doctor But it seemed like a good idea to go to medical school for a number reasons one. It was during the vietnam war and it was a way of putting off. A you know a decision about what to do about that I had a sense that having a a medical degree would be useful to me Given my interest and it certainly has been. But i never saw myself practicing medicine When i and i found medical school difficult in a lot of ways because there were so many things i was interested in that it did not satisfy abbas really interested in plants plant sources of drugs and the people who taught pharmacology had no knowledge of the of those. I was really interested in how the mind affected the body and that wasn't even considered in my medical education and mostly i felt i really wanted to learn what health was and how to keep people healthy and i learned next to nothing about that in medical school so that was very disappointing. I did a I moved from boston to san francisco in nineteen sixty eight which was a very exciting time to be out there and i did an internship and in the course of that i just saw clearly. I didn't want to practice that kind of medicine. I saw do too much harm and it did not as i said. It didn't really prepare made to teach people how not to get sick in the first place. And what do you think it was about you that you saw this. Education is different. Because i'm sure audio colleagues. Were kind of drinking the kool aid. And we're going along with whatever they are being taught and again it's just human nature. There's there's a power differential there and and you're learning all the stuff for you. You know you had this little bit of friction in this rebel side to you that you know. Look beyond what you're being taught. Do you think that came from the travelling at seventeen. Do you think that came from you. Know something growing up Influence goes way back. I think that's how. I came into the world because you know i just always. I think i always saw things differently. I always questioned what grownups were telling me side. That's just too i was. I think a lot of that was reinforced by travel experiences. And also another thing that that made me different from. My classmates was having that experience with botany and plants and natural world And also this very long standing interest in the mind You know even in college ice started off majoring in also majoring in psychology and i was very disillusioned by that because there is nothing about consciousness in it. It was all about running rats. In mazes and i wasn't interested in that Knows interested in consciousness in hell. Hell what's the interplay between the mind in the body. And i just didn't get any of that in in in medical school after. I finished my internship. When i dropped out i did take a course at columbia university for physicians in medical hypnosis. And that was one of the most interesting courses i've ever taken and it really made me see the potential abusing mind body interventions For a whole variety of of health problems. But i think all of those things combined to just give me a different perspective and you mentioned dropping out. Was that part way through the internship. No i finished my internship so i could get Medical license and got licensed in a number of states. But then i just couldn't see myself practicing that and making a living at that. So i did. I did drop out of medicine. I made my living for a number of years as a writer as journalists Now being being a freelance writer and eventually got a book contract And then set out on another series of travels For fan half years Mostly in latin america but some in africa and asia Looking at altered states of consciousness and psychoactive plants in drugs and alternate methods of healing. And a i was a real wander for those years and Very disconnected from the world of medicine. That i've been trained in. What were you like as an intern. Re somebody that just you know realize this world. They are caught up in. Put your head down and studied for the exams and and just went with the flow. Or were you kind of a pain in the biden would push push to the doctors in tests. What they're telling you. I tried not to do that. But i couldn't help myself. So you know. I mostly one of the things i discovered was in medical school and internship was that i saw so many people Medical school classmates interns. Who got in such bad mental states being in hospitals and having to do that I discovered that. I could disappear for periods of time. You know. I tell people. I was going to the library. Nobody ever questioned that. And then i'd go off and do something completely different. I'd hang around with the non medical people or do something to get myself in a good space and then and so. I was always remembered as being cheerful and and You know that was one strategy. I developed for doing doing well I had. I met a number of of teachers in medical school. Who were who were good. And that i bonded with. But i couldn't wait to get out by the way. I had mentioned to mentors that i had my family doctor Dick scholte's and then in college a freudian psychoanalyst named norman's enberg who we became very good friends. I really became part of his family. And he and. I talked him into being my faculty adviser when i did research on cannabis in my senior year of medical school and and remained under his You know he was. He was a very good friend and mentor for a number of years. My final mentors. That i will mention i i found after this is these years of traveling. You know in one of my my missions and going on all these Wandering through latin american other countries was looking for healers and finding people who Practice medicine in a different way and a better way than what i had learned and ironically It turned out that the person i had most learned from was in tucson had been there all the time i didn't know about him You know that there's some lesson in that that things are right in your backyard. It was Robert fulford in an elderly osteopathic physician Who's i think the most effective healer i ever met and no he's he's the the fourth mentor. That i had was influential. I wanna take some time and get into your travels after. You're done medical school when you said you went to. Latin america spent some time in asia and africa. How far after you finish medical school. How long had gone by before you decide to pick things up in and start traveling. Well i had. I did that year of internship in san francisco. Then i i was obligated to work for the government for two years in the public health service which was serving my military time and that was an a very unhappy period. I was hired to coordinate marijuana research at the national institute of mental health. But bef- right. Before i left san pursue got there they decided that i was undesirable person and could have nothing to do with all of that But people leaned on them to hire me. And i was given no job. I had a windowless closet. That i had to report to with a phone and i and nothing to do and i was told that if i made any trouble i be sent to vietnam so that was a year of sticking that out and at the end of it i resigned. My commission I was very unhappy period of as being threatened to go to vietnam and i was about to move to canada and i applied for and got to my surprise a conscientious status Based on a letter. I wrote saying that i couldn't practice western medicine in good conscience anymore. Didn't wanna do any alternate service for the government. And i don't know why my draft board and philadelphia went for that but suddenly i found myself with nothing to do And i had a year in which i wrote my first book. The natural mind And at the end of that year. I set out on that period of travel. Now we're gonna take a quick break for my child with dr while to give a show to our show partner paleo valley. The hundred percent grass-fed beef sticks from paleo valley. 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If i purchase by going ultimate podcast dot com slash organic by again that's ultimately podcasts dot com slash organic by inorganic by spelled. O r g. A n ifi support your immune system with organic by immunity and now back to my chat with doctor. Wyle before we get into the travel. Then let's talk about writing. I book so this is this is way. Back in the early seventies and seventy one. Yeah so this is a long time ago. What was the natural. How i know. This wasn't a book specifically on natural health and wellness. I think it was more. It was drugs and consciousness right. So what was what was that word like at the time like where people openly talking about these drugs. What type of us was nineteen seventy nine hundred seventy one. The country was highly polarized. Nixon was in power. there were mass protests against the vietnam war. This was the hippie movement. The psychedelic movement It was a very tense time and also one of terrific optimism. You know. I think there was a real sense that there was a possibility of changing the world and that there was a a new consciousness. Developing that You know was going to be terrific. And it was a very very exciting time. What kind of drugs did you write about. All of them. You know there was a chapter called is heroin is dangerous as alcohol for example that was meant to be provocative and was But i wrote a lot about cannabis about psychedelics. About all drugs and about the foolishness of trying to control people's drug use through criminal laws in that the whole war on drugs was a very silly idea and that No society had ever been able to to do that and that the fundamental problem was not recognizing that human beings have an innate drive to alter consciousness Not necessarily with drugs although drugs are convenient way to do that. And that was the basic argument of that book. And i was very happy to leave the country right when i finished it and before it got published And i was in south america for a year. I didn't expect to be back when the book came out but the publication was delayed. And i was back here when it came out and it caused a big storm of controversy the life magazine called of a subversive and dangerous book. i was attacked in a campaign speech by then vice president. Agnew later convicted of criminal activity. Who said i was the new timothy leary and dangerous person. Anyway it was a. I was very happy to skip out and go back to south america. Will you had connected with timothy leary when you're going. Harvard cracked yes. I knew him when i was undergraduate in the in the early sixties when he was just starting his research and He was a my impression of you. Know he's a very smart guy He had come across a these drugs especially silla simon and lsd. He thought they were the most interesting things he'd ever come across that they had huge potential to change the side. He did not foresee the kind of opposition that they would provoke He did really interesting research and was the first person to emphasize that the experience people had with these were very dependent on sentence setting on their expectations and the environment in which they took them but he also had a He really had a proclivity for pushing. People's buttons liked to make statements that were very incendiary Any really did not see the kind of reaction that he was provoking. A shit disturb. Yeah and Any any had a a a great need to be in the limelight and and that combination of things you know led to terrific trouble. So on the one hand he was certainly one of the people responsible for getting psychedelics into the mainstream On the other hand i remember. Hearing albert hoffman. once say that He thought that leary. It's setback psychedelic research for years And you know that probably both of those things are. True enduring undergrad. Did you have a relationship with leary or was it just a one off meeting kind of thing. No i met him a few times. And i was hoping that i could be a subject in their research. But they weren't allowed to us undergraduates. So i followed At followed that research. I wrote about it for the undergraduate newspaper And then after. I left harvard I had some relationship with over the next year. As we sometimes appeared on programs together and i came across a letter recently that i wrote on his behalf when fort to the parole board in california. You know supporting his release From the ridiculous charges they were holding him on. And i think it was the first time we chadha. We discussed your first masculine experience. So we won't go back into the details of that but at the time of writing that first book. What was your experience with these drugs. Well it was extensive. You know. I was a regular user of cannabis at that point in the year that i was in san francisco i had done a lot of experimentation with psychedelics You know so that was it was. I was actively interested in in all of that and a lot of the insights i got from that led to what i wrote in that book of and by the way. I'm very happy to see that. The natural mind is still in print. It still used in in a academic courses on drugs and society I think it's it's been a brain fluential book and i feel very good about having written. It was that first. Masculine experienced during undergrad. Or in med. School undergrad got it. So i'm just kind of tying together we talked about before you think. Starting to experiment with these drugs kind of opened up your mind in caused you to see the you know eventually when you got to the medical education to see things a bit differently. Yeah i'm sure. But i also realized that i had the shuttle that will often order to get through medical school so i think i just put that. I put that on the shelf and ignored it Because i i had a sense that if i followed the direction that that pointed out i would never have completed medical school So i really didn't get a chance to re-open that until i went out to san francisco that year when i was doing my internship because san francisco in nineteen sixty eight was a really hot bed of of all sorts of stuff and and psychedelic you so all the gut rekindled after that. I don't think i could have Juggled that with going through medical school. Got it all right. I want to come to the traveling now. So you head down to latin america. This was the first place he went when you began to to. You know you'd written your first book and you're going to go on this. This traveling expedition to different areas was the goal at that time to write another book. I didn't know. I got a fellowship. a really wonderful opportunity from an organization called the institute of current world affairs And i i got this scholarship that paid all. My expenses turned out for three and a half years to go wherever i wanted and write a monthly newsletter for private distribution On the subjects. That i was interested in which were older states of consciousness. healing Alternative medicine psychoactive plants and drugs and this organization had sponsor people to do these kinds of travelling fellowships mostly to write about social and political issues. So this is a real departure for them To do something in this area. I didn't i don't know it turned out those newsletters that i wrote. I eventually collected in an edited and published as my second book will the marriage of the sun and moon. But i don't think my intention in setting out was to write another book. So where did you specifically go first. In latin america i went first to mexico to learn spanish And i spent other the school that i wanted to go to in cuernavaca. I went there for half a day and decided that wasn't for me and then up ended up living in a village small with a high indigenous population and i learned. Spanish is by living there and Interesting i wrote a bit about this. But i had learned german high school in four very painful years with hardcore german teacher and spanish. I learned in three months despite living and speaking. And i'm convinced that that's the way you wanna languages you know not by studying grammar not just have to be in a situation where you have to speak it so i i lived in mexico for. I think it was three months and then i was driving in and i drove down through central america to colombia. And i columbia. Was a place that i spent a lot of time. I really love that country. Wanna go back and where you just winging it at the time. Did you know. I'm going to spend a sir okay. You didn't have a specific plan. Ben this much time here and then move on now. I didn't have a plan. Dick shelties had introduced me to several people in the colombian a botanist for example There several areas. I wanted to go to. I want to learn something about iowa. which was very little known in those days. I wanted to look at the use of Magic mushrooms and columbia. Which were you know hippies. Were just discovering. I was very Coca leaf The source of cocaine. And how how. People's use of coca differed from the use of cocaine. So those are some of the things that i want to look at. But i really didn't have much of a plan and were you traveling alone. Did you have like Girlfriend or some some sometimes. It was alone. Sometimes i did have a girlfriend who accompanied for me. Part of the time. I had Some buddies came along for part of the trip or would meet me so all different. I mean i did have stretches of being By myself for sometime sounds like an incredible experience. Takamaro mexico what would it. Did you experiment with any mind altering drugs there. Or did you will certainly cannabis. And i think and then also Shortly before my time there came to an end. I drove to that remote area of oaxaca. the sierra masataka where traditionally Suicide and mushrooms had been used by by shamans and had that was my first mushroom experience. with a woman shaman leonida You know was great and i. i don't know i have a mexico was was also a wonderful experience. It was it was being in a place where people were so connected with nature where the variety of foods was so different You know very vibrant culture again. One that i think. I connected with quite strongly a mentioned you're driving at the time you know seeing everything right at ground level. Did you feel safe at the time. I mean it was way back then but well. I think i had i. My guardian angels were on very active duty. Yeah it was. Areas know for instance that going to that area with where the mushrooms were used. It had been closed off because In the couple of years before then there'd been an invasion of hippies coming down there so the mexican army had sealed the area off and i asked around and people simple. Just go and see what happens and it was. It was a very rough terrain to get through. There was like a you know. Single lane unpaved road and i. I came to a barrier across the road and there was a hot there and a guy soldiering uniform with the machine gun sitting on the thing. And i remember i just waved and drove through and i can't imagine doing that the day but i you know i got through and when and the i got to the village on this mountain top people were very surprised that now. I think i was the first person that had shown up in some time. So i had experiences like that the All over as i said. I just had very good fortune i. I can't imagine doing that today. I was in areas. That probably are considered a dangerous. And i certainly looked strange But i did not have problems. You mentioned your interest in. I wa- sky. Where did you go to study that. I went to The putumayo territory and area of columbia on the border with ecuador and in the beginning of the amazon forest That's an area where shelties had worked for a number of years in the nineteen forties And he he gave the names of some shamans down there that i met And this was. It was in columbia. Was called y'all hey not iowa ska and so You know. I cooked up iowa with several of these guys. I took it on a few occasions And wrote some about it and it's probably one of the first people write about it. If anyone had told me that there would be iowa. Ska sessions offered in tucson with notices about this up on telephone poles. I would never have believed that. I would never believe that that would have become available or popular Appear so given all these different experiences with plant medicine. Were most of them positive for you. It sounds like it. Was you know they were mixed I think with with a wasco especially you know some of the shamans. That i saw were drunks and they were just charging money to sell this to hippies coming through i- others who. I think we're really master psychotherapists and able to deal effectively with people coming with a variety of problems. with With coca. I was most impressed. That how stable and positive uses of that were compared to the patterns. I saw cocaine use. And i thought it was a great lesson there of how we went wrong and dealing with that plant. You know you're not supposed to take that substance out of the plant and make available to people And then the worst is blaming all the trouble on the plant trying to eradicate that you know. This is a sacred planet of indigenous peoples. And we've done awful things down in peru peru especially about that so No i would say they were not all positive but i learned a lot by by. I saw a lot of positive uses of substances and drew some conclusions about that. That you know. I've been trying to tell people up here and do you feel like it's the type of thing that you've had to continue to experience having these altered states throughout the course of your life and and to continue to have new insights or is sounds like you had a period of time where you're pretty heavily into it for a number of years. Did you get what you needed. And then you can kind of move on. Yes and You know i think happen differently with different substances with cannabis When i was first using that in my twenties and early thirties it was a real ally Really stimulated creativity imagination. Well there was a period where it was great for social bonding And then The what i got from it became less and less useful to me and eventually somewhere in my mid thirties It mostly made me groggy and sedated and even though that's pretty much what i what happened to me whenever i used it took me a long time to separate myself from it but but since then it's really not something that i use you know. I think i got everything i need. It from. that with. Psychedelics I've i've learned so much from them now. A lot of my world view has been shaped by experience that i had on psychedelics. A lot of my views about medicine. I remember Alan watts wrote a blurb for the natural mind And he said one of the lines in it. Was you know when you get the message. You hang up the telephone And that's my feeling was psychedelics. You know. I think. I did not need to repeat that I was very into them for a long period. I i had sought wonderful things from that have had lasting impressions. I don't feel that. I have a need to use them anymore I think i'd just gotten the message. A harry you're saying and you mentioned him writing the blurb alan watts fear first book there. Were you guys connected before that. I'd met him because he was living in the bay area when i was doing my internship so An i published the research on cannabis. So i was had gun some notoriety about that and i don't remember how how a chain that we met but i remember meeting him in a conversation with him and then i sent him the The publisher sending the manuscript of the natural line. Do you remember anything about what he was like. When you met him was living on a houseboat in sausalito california You know he was. He was a pretty far gone alcoholic at that point in his life So i don't know remember having spending it a little bit of time with him Having an interesting conversation. That's all i can remember in spending all his time travelling around working with different plant medicines. Different healers what are some of the common things. Because you've had such a unique experience working with different types of healers and and different parts of the world. Would you say are some of the key things to look for in somebody that is you know. Truly a healer like in deep deep level. Well as i said. I think the most effective you and i met was this old osteopathic. Physician Bob fulford and he mostly use hands on technique. That was so gentle and unimpressive. Nobody he worked on. You felt like nothing was happening. I just regularly saw him produce phenomenal cures people and they felt so good to have his hands on you. People would say well wednesday when they come back and he'd say you don't have to come back you know your fixed. And his his his philosophy was you make these little adjustments and let old mother nature do her work and he was the first person. I think that really emphasized to me. That the source of healing is from nature. So it's healers i think. Real healers knows that they are not doing it themselves that they are facilitating a natural process. And that they're empowering people and you should come away from an encounter with a healer feeling. More empowered more autonomous not dependent on the person. So i think that's one thing to look for. And you seen that characteristic in a number of healers you've met with over there. I have but i've also seen the other sort who really It's a real power thing. Where they they make people feel dependent on them and and i think disempower them that they say that everything is coming from them healer. And that's not the case so let's continue the story but your travels after columbia. Did you go back home after that or did you can tell i went back and forth. I went to through ecuador peru. A little bit in bolivia Then i came back to the states. And then i went to africa for a while. I made some trips to japan. But i couldn't settle down. You know it was like i was I i just was restless. And i'd been on the road for so long. And i was very conflicted about it. On the one hand i was. I was tired of wandering around and i really had a longing to be in a place that felt like home and i somehow couldn't couldn't figure out how do that. And then the vehicle. But i drove to south america. I didn't want to drive it all the way back. So i shipped it back and I was came to tucson. I was going to head back to mexico to deliver a baby of a friend of mine and the car broke down in tucson and took six weeks to get apart and it was february of a warm wet winter. The desert was in full bloom. And i never left baby delivered itself as they usually do and So that's how my travels ended. And i found myself. You know living in tucson. And i really never left. And how long was it at that point when you found this place that you love and you could really put your roots in. How long was it before you picked up in began traveling again. Well i think I i never traveled like that again. You know i never spent An unbroken time of months Going on the road or going from place to place i began. I would take trips lasting from days weeks. Maybe a month at a time all over but i had a place to come back to and that was very different. You know that's what i've liked so I traveled a lot. I mean the right before the pandemic So it must have been twenty nineteen at the end of that year. My new year's resolution was not travel so much Because that that year. I just been you know i had to make a lot of trips for one reason or another and you really felt like too much. What year was that doctor. Wyle when you found tucson nineteen seventy-three caught it and at that time so it was. It was one thousand. Nine hundred seventy five l. k. And at that time. How many books. Eddie you i know alka just the natural mind when i settled in tucson. I don't remember what year the marriage the sun and moon came out. It might have been might have been not till eighty three or something like that ended the seventies so at that time is your goal just to continue to have different life experiences in right about because again. Early books weren't on health and wellness. What what were you thinking at that time. You're gonna do like you're still relatively young guy. And you have the aromatic wasn't actually. I was getting to be in my. Let's see so seventy five. I was You know i was in my early thirties. Well relative rally on. And i was a freelance writer. I didn't have regular paycheck I was You know money was very tight and I my parents were very unhappy with me. That i hadn't become a doctor and the way that they thought And i don't know it was. It was really didn't know what i want to be or what was going to happen. I you know trying to find Magazine assignments was not always so easy book. Contracts were not that lucrative So i was. It was an unsettled period. Sounds like there must have been a lot of internal conflict at the time. Because you got your pushback when you wrote the first book and you you know. You're finally settling down in a place but you don't really know where life's gonna take you at that point. Yeah it sounds like it must have been difficult mentally kinda to to feel stable in in in a good state of well-being yep so after Let's see so somewhere around I lived in tucson for maybe eight nine years and then i really felt i needed to change so i tried living in california for six months in big sur. Very remote isolated place didn't like that I moved back to the east coast for a winter. Didn't like that and then ended up coming back to tucson which. I felt conflicted about because i left. They're seeking a new life. And i'm couldn't find it but when i came back to tucson this time The culture medicine at the university of arizona found out that i was living there and asked me if i would give lectures the medical students and the first lectures they wanted were about cannabis because it was becoming such a hot topic and they didn't have any on the faculty knew anything about it. So i came in and gave a lecture on cannabis which was very well received and They said how about giving another lecture on drugs in general and i did that that was very well received so they said we'd like you to do this regularly and i did for a couple years but i said you know this is old stuff for me and i'd like to talk about things that i'm currently interested in Like alternative medicine. They didn't even know what the term meant But i began giving lectures to first and second year. Medical students about other systems of medicine and mind body healing. I mean nothing like that had ever been presented in a medical school before. And i. I like teaching. I found. I enjoyed that. I didn't want any part of that institution because it just seemed completely close to what i was interested in but it gave me a a title. I hadn't was an adjunct lecturer in something. I got paid a certain amount. I could use their stationary and You know made me look a little bit legitimate so You know. I enjoyed that and so for a number of years i. I kept up those lectures. I started the discussion group of medical students. The talk about other aspects of healing And you know. I had a Between either getting a lot of stations to speak places on various topics that i got paid for so chugged along for a while And then i wrote my first book about health and healing called health and healing. And which i put out my philosophy of medicine nominee. Take another quick break for my child with doctor. Wyle to give a show to our show partner for cinematic forcing matic's a wellness company. That's well known for its delicious mushroom coffee. I'm a big fan of their think. Blend which drink every morning. It's an organic fair trade coffee with lions mane mushroom for productivity in charge a mushroom for immune support. If you're like me look forward to your morning cup of coffee and it's not something you're gonna skip over. Forget to have with the blind. You're not only getting a delicious and healthy coffee every morning. You're also getting a daily dose of medicinal mushrooms. It's a win win and all four sigmatic products organic vegan gluten free and it's also worth noting. If for whatever reason you don't like this coffee you can send it back and you'll get a full refund believing cover the shipping see. Have nothing to lose. Forcing matic is offering a discount of their bestselling think mushroom coffee for listeners. The ultimate health. Podcast you get up to forty percents off plus free shipping on their mushroom coffee bundles. Declaim this deal must go to four sigmatic dot com slash ultimate health again. That's forcing sigmatic dot com slash ultimate health enforcing matic is spelled f. o. u. r. Amity see this offer is not available on the regular website. Make the upgrade to four sigmatic mushroom coffee that contains lines mane mushroom for productivity in charge a mushroom for immune support. It's a no brainer. Now back to my chat with dr. While i think this is something we need to really highlight dig into a bahir. The pivoting in your writing. What was it about you that you know. Went from writing about these mind-altering drugs to a more general health and well-being in wellness interest for one. And then and then to right on that well. Some of it was that. I was really forced into that because this was when the war on drugs started under reagan and I was really targeted by a lot of people as being one of the Satanic people out there who promoting drug use and after the marriage of sun and moon. I wrote another book with a good friend of mine. When if it rosen called from chocolate to morphine that book was you know that said that. They're good and bad. Drugs are just good and bad uses of drugs And that that really got me into trouble. I mean there were attempts to ban the book There the white house started organizing attempts to keep me from speaking in places. I really saw my livelihood threatened. They approach the medical school and tried to get through the drought lee as a lecturer so it seemed to me. I better start writing about something else. And in fact. I had been you know i had collected all this information about Different methods of healing. And i had come to my own conclusions about what was not right about medicine. So i i wrote that book and and the health and healing i think really lays out the basic principles of what became integrative medicine. And that's what. I started talking about and looking back at that books in suspense such a long time. How much of what you wrote that. Initial book on on health and he health being is still applicable. Today i think it's pretty applicable. You know i. There's not too much in that. That i would change. I have put out. There's been a few different editions of that. I've made slight tweaks. But i think the basic philosophy i stand by. I'm really curious on the longevity of your career. I mean you've been writing now sincerely seventies in and you've not only been writing for so long you've been writing on on different topics that kind of fit within one niece. But you know you did have that pivot and in your writing. What do you think it is about abou you are the way you about things that allow you to do your be this public figure in share everything. You're learning for such a prolonged period of time. Well i think i've spoken my truth. I I don't tell people to do things that i don't do myself and You know what i write about comes from my own. Incites a one of the very consistent kinds of feedback that i've gotten from readers over the years as people say that i into words what they've been thinking but hadn't put into words for themselves and that it validates know what they've been thinking about. They've been feeling So that's one possibility That that my writing resonates with people in some way that helps mix feel-good all this ties into the longevity our career. I mean you're getting older. Now you're seventy nine years old and you're you're still sharp as a tack. You're able to you know. Continue to share this message that you've cultivated in and fine tune over the years. What do you think it is about. Obviously you're living the lifestyle that you're you're promoting health and wellness but what do you think it is specifically that allows you to stay so sharpen and continue to have a robust energy and and to move forward. I think it's a combination of all sorts of things. I'm sure some of it is genetic some of his upbringing. Some of it is lifestyle I have an active mind. I'm you know. I mentioned earlier about that. My parents encourage my curiosity. I remain a very curious person. And i experimented. I try things and i No i have also very good bullshit detector and You know. I hear an awful lot of stuff and read an awful lot of stuff. That seems nonsensical a million. I'm not afraid to say that And you know. I at things out there and see how they could be better and i want to tell people how they could be better. I certainly that was my feeling about medicine. And i guess what i'm one of these i'm most proud of is the success of integrative medicine and The center that i found that at the university of arizona. No we've now graduated over. I think something like twenty five hundred people from our very intensive fellowship training and train all sorts of other people and a lot of a lot of the people come to us say that they're there because they read one of my books And they were a lot of people say they run the verger dropping out of medicine and this was this gave them. You know a reason to continue in it. That's very gratifying to your i can imagine. And as you've age has been specific things with your health and wellness routine that you've had to change or evolve to continue to stay healthy and robust. Yeah i don't think my. I don't think my mind has changed but my body certainly has and just looking at the kinds of physical activity that i've been into over the years that's changed a lot in my twenties. I had a period. When i ran a lot of friends who were runners and i never liked it and then after a number of years i got messages from my knees that they didn't like me running so i changed into writing into cycling I used to ride a mountain bike. up a canyon that i lived in outside of tucson. I did that every day. And then i got more into walking and swimming which agree with me more But so in that. Certainly i see that as changed and i adapt myself to that nearing the age of eighty. I can't believe how it got there but you know i really feel that my energy is not what it used to be. A physical energy is not what it used to be able to have to adapt What i do to to that I'm constantly experimenting with diet. and You know either adding things leaving things out. But that's something. I always experiment with And other than that. I don't know. I think. I i do all the things that i write about. I practice my breathing exercises. I get good rest and sleep. I have fun with friends You know eat well physically active. I spend time with my dogs work in my garden and keep busy diet or otherwise sir there any current experiments that. You're you're doing at this time I've been playing with Well the the cold exposure was relatively recent thing The in terms of diet. I've gotten much more into eating. Fermented foods learn more about their role in keeping the gut microbiome healthy and i like to make my own fermented foods so That's one thing. I guess i'm always interested in you know. I have a long-standing interested. Mushrooms and health affects mushrooms and So i experiment with those some of the ones that i take some that i grow Thumbs somethings i can think. Oh you grow your on mash rooms. What what types up here in. Bc i grow she talkie On older logs and that's been Fun and successful. I've gotten very good crops of them. That's very cool. I love those. So how does talk a little bit about the how the process works. You get You have freshly cut older logs of You know about four inches in diameter and maybe three four feet long And then you Drill holes in them in a regular pattern and you pound into them. Little wooden dowels that have been impregnated with russia talkie culture Seal them with wax. And then you just let them sit for For some time and eventually you see the white my liam appearing at the ends of the cut logs and after time to initiate fruiting mushrooms you soak them in water for twenty four hours and take them out and then of the next week. You get mushrooms and you could do that. A number of times for the logs are exhausted. That's really cool. And where do you get the actual shitaki material that you impregnate. The logs were there. There are many online sources for that So it's pretty easy to get okay and to kind of round things off here before we part ways we talked about how you've been able to stay so mentally sharp bet as you age. What are some of the specific things people can do whether they are aging or whether they're younger to help maintain that cognitive sharpness and and brain health. I do some word puzzles. I like once called across sticks. Which i find much more interesting than Crossword puzzles I think learning another language is one of the best things you can do for your brain You don't have to master the language i think. Just the attempt to learn it i. I'm fluence manish. I've given lectures and spanish and said i learned that really not by studying by living You know. I can get by in german although eat practice. I'm an interested in learning japanese. I've got a big vocabulary. But i think i'd have to live there for a bit to get it up but i think that kind of stuff is excellent for the mind And i read a lot I'm i don't know as i said i'm curious on constantly looking at information Seeing what there is to learn. So and i think being around people that have active minds and are curious is very good for yours during the pandemic. Have you been able to stay connected with with neighbors people by you to facilitate that sense of community. Yeah i mean. I i'm tired of zoom. Frankly have done a lot of teaching zoom I much preferred doing that in person But you know it's it's a way of staying connected and that's been important. What about specific foods when it comes to brain health. Well you know. I other whether you heard this but growing up there was a thing that fishes a brain food And it is mostly because of the fish that have omega three fatty acids in them and one of those. Dha is a major constituent of cell membranes in the brains of salmon sardines herring all that. I think there are concerns about fish being sustainable and But you know that. That's that's one of the things i think is very useful Green tea. I've been sleeping on my ice macho here. A very good source of antioxidants. I think very good for brain health and by the way You know that. I have company that sells marsha and your listeners can get a discount. It's much dot. Com is the website. And if you use the code you. Hp one five you'll get a discount on the products there I think anything that helps contain inflammation Spices like ginger turmeric for example. Very good for brain health because some of the Problems that people develop including alzheimer's. Really begin as inflammatory processes in the brain. So that's very useful. That's great and thank you for sharing that discount again. I know we've offered that on previous interviews. Go do you do any fishing yourself up. I done some I've gone out with a friend After salmon and i've gotten a few kings avenue which has been gratifying You know sadly appear. There's been a tremendous amount of overfishing and the ocean is very depleted and great contrast to alaska and the main difference is i that a. b. c. allowed fish-farming on a big scale and that has really had terrible consequences for wild populations of of salmon Also the i say. Reckless logging appear has destroyed habitat for Many salmon spawning areas and then The worst problem is that the fishing has been totally unregulated in alaska there's very strict regulation as a result of that fish. Are you know it's the same basic environment but Fish populations are in much better shape than alaska. They aren't bc. So it's not so easy. Go out and catch fisher and when it comes to your fish consumption. Is there a few different types that you're basically rotating through or how do you go. I mean i try this. I i avoid You don't wanna eat large carnivorous fish like marlin for example and swordfish there too likely to be contaminated with toxins. Are they going to be real. Careful about tuna Both from the point of view of toxicity and sustainability a some years ago sylvia earle. Who's a very well known american oceanographer and marine. Biologists came up to me at a conference and begged me not to tell people to eat fish. She said there just aren't going to be any very soon. A method problem I you know. I i really like i like sardines. Witcher's a sustainable at the moment I i eat wild salmon especially sockeye Sable fish Things like that. But i think you wanna learn about which fisher still sustainable. Which are not. I'm very research that's going on. Who lab grown meat and lab-grown fish I read that. There's a sushi restaurant about the open in san francisco. That's only going to serve lab-grown fish. So i would like to try that and You know maybe that's one one path for the future. What a different world we live in. Yeah over the years. Have you ever experimented with vegan diet. I know for a period of time. You're vegetarian but if you ever gone all the way to just just plants probably had periods in a win in japan as the stay at a place that was A macrobiotic center so the food served there was begin I for me. I find that difficult. i really like Good quality cheese Especially that's the main dairy product that i eat and I you know. I do like fish. I don't overindulgent by like it. When i eat it so i don't. I think i would find a vegan diet after awhile Difficult while dr. While i'm gonna let you go i know. I know we're up on time here. But i really enjoyed round three and soon just sharing your story in such detail and sharing so many more insights with the listeners. I really appreciate again offering that discount to the listeners. Fifteen percent off. I'll put the lincoln the in the description the coupon code other than that. How can the listeners connect with you after the show. Well you can go to my website doctor. Wyle dot com d. r. w. e. l. dot com All of my books are in print On amazon. I have a A newsletter that's published. You can find out about that. And i'd also recommend going to the website of our center. It's an alkyl the andrew center for integrative medicine at the university of arizona that website is integrative medicine dot arizona dot edu and look at the full range of things that we offer including some very good Online courses for the general public. Perfect a mental lincoln all up in the show notes. Any final thoughts before we part ways knows. Thanks for having me on again. I really enjoyed the discussion. I did to thank you. okay bye bye bye. I really enjoyed going deep with doctor. Wyle hearing more about his story and learning about all the nuances of his life. I hope you enjoyed it too. I'd love to hear rethought of the episode over on instagram. You can take ultima health. Podcast in doctor while you can take a screen shot is. You're listening be sure and tag both of us. We'd love to connect with you over there for full show notes head over to ultimate podcast dot com slash four thirty. There's links everything we discussed today and so much more. Be sure and check those out. Thank you so much for listening to the show and making all the way to the end. I really appreciate it. Have an awesome week. I'll talk to you soon wishing you ultimate health.

paleo valley Doctor wyle holly hawk japan tucson cortez cortez island Weil jesse chapas latin america dr andrew wiles university of arizona center f growing group of true food kit dr andrew canada harvard vietnam hawaii san francisco us
Roland Garros Day 5 - Barty out; Fiery Federer forces way through

The Tennis Podcast

49:07 min | 5 months ago

Roland Garros Day 5 - Barty out; Fiery Federer forces way through

"Hi this is billie jean king. This is marion. bartoli mats wilander. This is mary. Carillo dunbar winker. I'm andy murray. This is yannick noah. And you're listening to the tennis podcasts. Our gay fans might not enjoy this podcast. Because we're we're recording at twelve minutes past eight kato and twelve minutes post nine french time with any one game played of gasquet against nato. We'll feel quite confident about recording. This assuming that raph only dull is going to win that much fairly comfortably. Miracle isn't going to befall rashard guests gay tonight and it's not going to suddenly be out of date tennis news as much as our fans do. Enjoy that How how confident did we fail about. This results having watched four points. If nadal against gasquet chapter eighteen. I would say pretty much as confident as about any results that the reason the troll eastern like a man on the verge of using the phrase foregone conclusion before this match i mean happy birthday route. Thirty five years of age. It's like someone is served him a birthday platter of richard. Gasquet your dream opponent. They came along at the same time. They're both sort of came along as these Juniors fifteen years of age making their debuts loads of hype about the mall and and we've seen this a lot. It's so fascinating to watch your junior. Come along and make the transition and then so many years later you put them side by side and one's one got double digit grand slams in the other one hasn't and its always quite interesting to see that that process hosmer become on face was an incredible junior remembering watching him win the junior wimbledon final and won three grand slam titles that year in juniors and today i've seen him and he's still great to watch but he's never reached grandson final and that would have seemed crazy about you in the locker room. Rishaad guests gave before this much. Matt i don't know why. But you there would. He took some stuff. I'd imagine quite a somber atmosphere. What are you saying to. How'd you get him to believe of ood questions i've ever been asked on this podcast. That might be the hardest got the funk is would you say hit back council beforehand cool because it feels like someone is at that point. Yeah i'm always intrigued. By how broadcasters hyper match like this you know because everyone's thinking the same thing and david you were telling us that addicts correct on eurosport just made the point that you know perhaps nerves have shrunk reshot gasquet in the past at the french open playing in an empty arena. Might be some sort of opportunity for him to just opened his shoulders and see what he can do but fails like clutching at straws. Doesn't it i mean to me. The very fact that nidal comes on with his own branded marsk enrich our gas goes there and his disposable one just sort of tells the story right an innovative pandemic way. Yeah oh it's it's i think it's breakpoint nadeau. Yes breakpoint and adele. Maybe i'm really nice. But i just don't understand if you're richard gasquet y you don't just come out try blitz. The ball and i would say to him to mr david. You're in the locker room with a matz been pushed out on his ear. What would you say. Play him a video of rocky. Three when paulie says to rocky when he's about to face mr t. e. says just go out and kill the guy. That's what i'd say. And and then i would show him a video of his two thousand seven match against andy roddick when he. I think he was two sets to love down nothing. He hit about eighty backhand winners and accommodated on that match extraordinary and he wasn't rallying on this. He was just kind of a broke. There we go prep for playing the dial at roland. Garros in twenty twenty. One is video of playing andy roddick on. We're more than two thousand seven. Was that just forty years of past that already looks like better prep than what ratio gas as been. Told before this match it sir. It's not panning out for him. So but will you on the edge of your seat. So we'll keep you posted. It edited if he's one. I think i think we will show it to ratio gas to record an entire new podcast. If he wins. And i say that confident in the knowledge it it won't happen. It's been quite a day has an a. thoroughly entertaining day but for one or two wolf. Frankly one massive massive massive local in and that was the loss of ash ashkenazi. The top seed in one of the defending champions on the women's side depending on how you look at it she she retired today. Trailing by set to mike dillon att she. She said she had no choice. It's the hip injury that she was clearly. Hampered by in the opening round. She came out with that hip heavily strapped again. She says it's a new injury. It's not one she's folk before it's a cute. She says her team know what they're dealing with. And it just takes time. So it's just a race against time for wimbledon and the grass courts. Now she was she was measured as you'd expect. She didn't give too much away but she gave about as much as i've ever seen from ashkenazi it was clear. She was gutted perhaps not in her demeanor. She was very controlled in demeanor. Be in her words. You know she kept saying this is tough. She kept saying you know. I was in great form sheaf. She clearly felt so confident. And you know she said for for my body to be the thing that that lets me down. I think she feels a real injustice in that because she's so see preemies fit already sad site today. I guess i guess we're prepared for a little. After her first round match we lowered our sights considerably fresh party but nonetheless to see to see the former champion limp of the court that way was was distressing We didn't get to see the injuries happen because it happened in practice but it sounded very much light. Simona halep one in rome where you just. What's happened there. I mean that's just out the blue. And and i agree with you i. I didn't see the press conference but read those quotes. I did think there is a woman who's who she was neuon ashcroft ever be accused of being smug but she was as close to being sounding smug as possible before this tournament. Fact that she'd had that week on the on the in the south of france and on our own clock enjoying life for a week and then coming up here and clearly just brimming with confidence. Everything's right everything's ready. She's had all these months on the road. She's fading fresh now playing the best tennis of life and that happens. It's cruel like really. Yeah it's it's an enormous shame. I think she's only retired from four matches in her whole career and two of those have been in the last couple of weeks and she said deve as you said i different. I think the rome injury was thinking words. An accumulation of load. She'd been playing a lot since she took the trip over from australia. And it just caught up with a little bit in rome whereas this was an acute incident she says just just a freak thing landing on her serve in training and yet it's an enormous shame for her and and for the women's draw quite frankly i mean there's still fabulous by his left in the tournament but i just can't help but think that we've lost so many names from this tournament and not had the joy of having the sort of exciting upset at the same time in a hallett wasn't even in the drool about he's had this asaka withdrew vista had to withdraw. We have moog ruth an address goo not quite ready. It's been it's been a tough first week for the women. i must say just from that standpoint. So many exciting players and they will just had. This bad padlock really did the three top players in the world and no longer in the drawer. None of them lost. The last point and i was never in the drawer. She pulled out just before didn't she. But pretty extraordinary state of affairs to and if you told us all a week ago. That's where we'd be. That's where we'd be. We would have scarcely believed. I think i mean considering how unweakened the the women's draw seems i mean obviously it's depleted. Obviously we would follow those names that you mentioned still be in but it standing up pretty well i think to to the the knox that it's taken we've got. I mean the the loss of party is big firms super who now faces meiktila net for a place in the in. The second week is big for coca golf and jennifer brady. They will meet in the third round for a place in the second week. I don't know. I haven't actually checked that. She's with me saying this. But hannah that that runs on twitter during the grand slams hannah. She's great follow us on twitter. If you want informed irreverend brilliance from hanna. Hanna thinks that coca gov is going to the semifinals. When she said that. I looked and i thought. Yeah maybe yeah and this is the first tournament that i've seen coca goffin where i don't think of her as just an up and comer. Who's making a mark. I but is not a not relevant to the tournament and what will end up happening now as relevant she feels. I mean. I think we're still. We're still caught between the two and we probably will be for another eighteen months to say when she's nineteen twenty. I think she could be absolutely a threat for the titles but game stands up. I mean to me. At least from the baseline. I think the serve is still questionable at this level because of the number double-faults etcetera. She's going to get better. But i'm an ac it the strike. She's taken this year surprise me. We'll she get plus brady. He's the favorite and that one. I think she's probably the favorite based on a full she. She being goff yet goff. She's won eleven of last twelve matches. I think And just at this stage in her career up a little bit more comfortable on the clay compared to brady. I think brady certain game that can work. I watched quite a lot of match today against fiona ferro which was cracking match. You know the some mature stadium was really rocking by the end. Just something about a french plan playing in from with a unique atmosphere. And there's something about fear of pharaoh that seems to really connect with people. She's kind of like she feels like one of them. One of the crowd. She sort of disarming in that way and unassuming. And i think they really get behind us so brady deve well to win through in that atmosphere. But i think goff's playing better tennis at the moment and jennifer brady. So i would. I would just go with golf based on everything. David has said that furrowed brow from david. Well i am. My main feeling is how much. I'm looking forward to watching because i really enjoyed brady against faroe. I didn't get to see all of it but you mean both. There's two players that we just discovered in the last year and the they bring something to the table and the quite similar in terms of levels and they looked really closely match and then to to now have gov meet in the winner. That's a really fantastic prospect. If the both fully fit. I could definitely see that being tight. I would've probably thought brady would have been the favorite just because she's older and like i say golfers just generally accelerating her development before our eyes in a way. That are really wasn't expecting this year. I still thought this would be a real development year. And i think it is that but she's she's just looking the part well speaking of speaking of match ups that we're looking forward to round number. Three dog went to play date with never tara she did. Listeners will never know the length that i've gone to to try and keep billie jean quiet during this podcast recording and they were so successful for thirty minutes she will settled down folks the squirrel she. She's going through a guard dog phase. She thinks that someone at the door editor what her her plan actually would be if there were an intruder. I don't think she would be able to follow through. She's her box. Writing checks her physicality kong. Tash some women pub. Just sharon anyway as trying. Let's press on if you're looking forward to that one in round three david. How about sloan. Stevens against carolina. Muka stevens was just sublime today. I thought she was like velvet. That's another hanna. -rism she beat covid. Seven five six one. The seven seed. Puska the rome finalist but was that an upset. Well the thing is it's an upset in terms of they've done over the last couple years and the statue in the game ranking all the rest of it. But i think probably all three of us. If you'd line those two up and said right the both gonna pay the best today. Who's going to win. Slammed stevens is gonna win. She's she's just more talented tennis player. Really in my my mind. Just go back a little bit as well. You think back. Maybe miami or somewhere around there. Dan evans was watching on the tv at one of the tournaments he was. He was transfixed by her. You just think she's the most talented woman in the world Intense and and i mean and that sort of a players play view. I think that the other plas- watch slow stephen. She's that good thing. I'm yeah i'm pleased to hear that. Because that's how as a layperson i feel about. I'm looking at game thinking. What would you change here other than maker able to produce this weekend we count. She's obviously not that kind of character and we do accept that not you know mental toughness and resilience etc. That's a skill in itself and in some we're rink is always talked about that. Has knee says. I'm never going to even at his peak he said i'm never going to be the guy that can do this. We can we count and summit summit the rankings. The what what would you change game. No nothing no when she when she's on good as anybody that's picked up a racket. That's active today. I think pretty much. I don't a dual thing. I mean she's had a really tough year hasn't she. It's really quiet woman to see her out there doing what she loves to do. And doing it well and the other nephew. So the post match interviews stevens there does seem to be something something just a bit different about it. She seems she seems content. She she seems happy to be there. She definitely seems bruised by the year. She's had i see relatives doesn't choose to you to relatives to covid nineteen very quick succession and then and then had very soon after that had to spend two weeks in in hard corentin australia after suffering this awful period of time with her family and we can only imagine how tough that must've been so this on one hand as a sort of soberness about her but there's also a contentment. I think with with being on the tour. I'm reading between little lines here because she doesn't give that much. But i don i. That's that's the sort of disposition. I'm that's what i'm reading into a disposition at the moment and i realized today how invested i am in the possibility of zone stevens returning to the kind of tennis that one of the us open and go to the french open final. I want more than i had previously admitted to myself. Yeah and you've got a little taste of it today because Because she kills it is. She was so so good and i agree. There is a different energy about This was this was the first top ten win to twenty eighteen. I just think that really puts into perspective. How how hard. She's been finding it to beat top players But i thought she was so focused today. she she said for the first set at five four and there was a brilliant game risk of a really raise talev and broke back but stevens that focus. I'm talking about was on display right there. Because she she maintained a strong level and brokeback won the set and then in the second set she just ran away and her game was flowing and those forehands reminiscent of have full ham when it's at her best when she's reached the final girls. Before i i love watching apply as well and i love watching muka play so count me in for that. Third round stevens mc What have we. What else have we got. We've got to cannon gula golf brady as i previously mentioned kennedy. Gould is a good one isn't it. doesn't this. Just say everson all those players you've listed the lost and kinda dense in the draw mertens. The depth is Minds load him really. I mean they're roll losses. It doesn't mean that they're not but still you're left with these matches and people like us island a fantastic. Yeah it's quite interesting. How the seeds other than other than bharti have really got through in the top half. We were talking yesterday about that very open. Bottom quarter where i think. The only player who's reached the grand slam semifinals vandross. Shiva and there's eight of them or with a big chance of getting there but in the top half as you said the matchups we would have expected it to happen are going to be happening. All the ones you've just listed and it makes it makes it very exciting. I think but having big up all of these matches all the depth of talent and how many contenders there all does. It actually feel completely irrelevant because eagles field tech is about four hundred times better than everybody else at the moment and is basically not even losing points let games i mean losing sets feels like a sort of i mean just such a distant possibility. Yeah she played. Rebecca peterson today. Who feel whenever say a player. I think she's so much better than ranking she. She won one game today and arthur. She played quite well. She was she she was in the rallies. She just couldn't end it. She just couldn't win the last stroke as it were. She couldn't strike the hammer blow when even they pizza and we seem to be in the rallies. She won't take knew exactly what she wanted to always always thinking one two shots ahead. It was extraordinary. Do feel sad that way party and hanukkah around. Because i feel a bit robbed of those mac chips but it's fantastic is just such a joy to watch mean it is. It is like going back to last october. He can beat her big big power plants. Or if in sabal anchor serena if they're absolutely coming out laser in the ball. I think they could shock. Fantastic gentlemen. I think that she's used to being in charge. That would be very interesting. What do you say i agree. I i do think. Stevens harass would be would be fascinating because she's such good movement as well and i dunno. Maybe she could cut off some of those angles feel tech creates But it does feel like most of the matches. Their on field techs reckitt. We're going to have years of this. Yeah if it. It does feel eerily like last. October doesn't it. She's she's ruthless. It is terrifying. How ruthless she is. It sends shockwaves three quite interested to see how she would get on it. She ended up playing. Someone like serena whose such a figure in the sports whether she'd be rattled at all by that i can't even imagine her rattled. Sure it's possible. But i find it quite hard to picture. I don't have my brain doesn't have the data to create that image at the moment. can you say at no. But i guess maybe. It's one of those things that you can't imaginative. It happens and serena serena does have an aura still and you know i mean if the thing if they were to meet it would be in the final and actually buy. The thing is serena's the one who struggled in finals. Recently so it would be a fascinating dynamic. Speaking of fascinating dynamic six love nadeau. I just turn out horrible memory of spaniard beating the frenchman. Yeah i was. That was the question of is about to go for. Is this surgery precarity every champion situation and if it is we'll try and give them a game. I mean triangle. Any wasn't his own words. He wasn't good enough to take. It is that we're gonna see tonight. I'm sorry people soon to be out of date. Ten news david. It feels like it. He's gonna a game will nidal give him that game. I don't think you'd give it him no. I think really think he'd love love love. Oh yeah our one now. This does not so focused. He's not thinking about it. Doesn't i don't think he'd know how horrific how i suggested the rocky three capital rocky did trying to kill a guy and got knocked out in the second round so didn't work out so well. Let's move on to the menstrual and agro federer on new favorite federer. he's only nine years old. He turns forty in two months. And yet we renew a new dimension to a defender said. No we see nagy federal before but i just felt like today was just a little bit of a new facet of aggie french federa. This sort of really petty agonise. it was so glorious. He won by the way in four sets against marriage. Pretty tight up until a third set tiebreak and then federal rotary decays rotary three that tiebreak and then roll to the full and that was what he was. He was most pleased with with the win. He he was really buzzing. I thought on the court and in the press conference after that victory really chatty intuitive and and brimming with confidence in fact i think he's playing better than he expected be fish oil and the fact that he had those gears to today. which frankly. I didn't think that that brought him a lot of satisfaction. But but i've spent too long talking about anything but the the federal agonise could somebody describe the sequence of events that brought about petty aggie federa. Well i think the gist of it was that he was trying to get used to this thing with the towel on. Either side of the court without a ball at bringing them the talent and this one's no one's ever been so befuddled by towels federal e. Don't get his head around ten bucks the crow from federal so glorious at this stage of his career he comes across as the slightly grumpy manu remembers how it used to be and suddenly. We've gotta do not that. He's anti the measures. Because obviously there's a good reason for them but you know it didn't used to be like s no kind of get and they're saying i'm taking too long and and chile seemed to be saying that he was taking too long. The umpire gave him a warning. Didn't he gave federal warning. It was it was a time violation the holding up marrying chile when chile is ready to serve and of course of course the great irony is the federal had spent a not inconsiderable amount of time waiting for the stop bouncing the ball this point which he was. Yeah because he wasn't just hanging on the court and he really was i. he'll mcchord all in french empire. It was wonderful. He said to the empire. I've listened to you now. You listen to me. And he said you think well. You thought wrong lines from coronation street and just when you think he's a good friend of myron. I think gee think. I was expecting to back away from it in impress off. Deseo knows nothing. I love mary. There's no beef. He sort of says with a childlike grin on his face. When he's asked about it he said well when he puts his foot down ready for serve. He's not ready for the serve. There's still ten bounces or something. I feel like stop bouncing and are ready to return. when you're ready to serve. Did he ever smallest. Oh yeah yeah. Yeah very funny. It was really great and he want to be boring about it but it does raise a discussion point about whether the clock starts ticking. Before you start bouncing does the bounce star countess part the service mason. I personally don't think it should but it doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule about that. I got a feeling federal would quite like that to be a hardened i rule about that in future he had he was he was as he often is full of interesting quotes today he was asked about how his body's feeling on the claim the his knees holding up the need that he's had the most recent surgery and he said people think clay's slow. It's not that sleigh. If you're planning on a day when it's warm than it can be faster than most hardcourts. And then he talked about he said. Obviously there's other difficult things about clay like bad bounces and sliding exception. But he highlighted it. Being a bit of a sort of lazy misconception will announce if date misconception. That clay is slow. It's just not as simple as that loved one. Fifteen thirty gas take dell so that was federal. Today he now plays dominik koepfer the german. He beat taylor fritz today and he beat him fair and square. But taylor. Fritz is right. Knee gave out on him on the last point of the match he humbled to the net and yet she left. The court in a wheelchair is a really tough one to see for for young player and really disappointing result for fritz. Who enjoys declared second round against dominik koepfer. You'll you'll take that. I think if you're taylor for its missed opportunity but i think federal also we'll take a third round against for. Don't you think yeah. I think so i mean he. He's good on clay cook. But i think if you'd set to federal you'll get three best five-set matches at the french open. He'd have been delighted about that he is. He's gaining so much information. Every time he he steps on core he was talking today. About how are we still struggling in a little bit with the defense but that was emphasized by how hard chocolate chips the ball and really push back but in attack. He's he's getting increasingly shop. I think And if you can get through that one he's likely to have a crack bertini and that would be a real test of where his level is is very well so i think so far. It's been pretty much. The perfect french open for federal that he would have that he would have wanted your massive test. I think bertini. He looks like i know. We talked to madrid about how he's looking at a different beast to how we've ever considered him at the post. I feel like he's gone up another level he described and david today's looking solid and menacing all at the same time. The crowd absolutely love him in paris. Don't there's something there's something happening with guarantee nian in paris. I think it feels like it's coming together. He's cool who connects a playing Korea is it federico younger brother if they were going to show it was all smiles in the face but they were really going to each at our fall announce arguing hitting good shots at each other and bertini basie just too powerful for him to the moment that gets on his four hundred just takes over and he's happy to eat happy to white on his backhand and just bunt it or chip it and then eventually get around and onto that forehand and it's pretty much game over. he does. he looks fast. He looks strong. I mean he he's gonna take some stopping. i think i could see him going deep. I bury teeny seeming. That much happens in the fourth round. Bertini goes in favorites. The my money. I mean can disrupt those players though you're right. I think that'd be really watching him. Try to decode. Seventy flashback of predicting the bertini whose federal some trouble before losing the the quickest ever full match at wimbledon. It was a different time for teeny. Oh my goodness me. it's one all love. Thirty on adult serve is happening. The is missing quarterback. Yeah i'm transfixed by now. I'm unable to podcasts. Nick dead novak djokovic. Which was blaming brilliant. Today was a he was playing on. Suzanne lenglen court kind of the say he coincided mostly with when federer was playing on saturday. So we kinda eclipsed to bit but just just wanna buy is business and similarly to to rebecca pizza. Not anything cuevas played badly. Today gave a good account of himself but jackovitch one in three cents was just sublime. I thought our earth and that's the best tennis i've seen in the men's draw so far this tournaments. The racket was like a trampoline. The way the ball comes off. You don't think of jackovich's powell apply at necessarily he you down with a cumulus cumulation of blows well. When when he's really time in the bowl he is powerful and cuevas felt that today is quite as you said catherine he was playing well but he got handily beaten and djokovic looks in a really good place the place he's in is the third match up with record. Is baron. kiss. Which i'm going to call a good drool. Is anybody gonna disagree with me. You just want to throw the shade back to your old powell. Respects placed is recorded. Bronchitis kiss replace in the second week. A good rule say great. Yes so that much up will be happening in a couple of days time. I'll tell you what today was a good day for the movement or may maybe not the original movement but what we might call the second wave of the movement. Burr fourth wave second waves very much in fashion. At the moment the movement used to be what the next gen is. Now i think. I've completely lost track of that. What it give me names. The movement back in the day the movement was was which was that then which was like really good and the dull your lianne mari than there was. Then there was next gen okay. A now more movement. I was talking about the modern movement as in the movement reincarnated. Which is the next gen. Pass us vera of you. Rube love now. You might call alcaraz and musetti who both won today. Senna and senna. You might call them the second wave of the next gen because they all significantly younger. Dc would've main. Yeah i we have to put everything. In in a covid analogy number one described the new wave anyway which is a very long winded not particularly successful. Way of making the point that carlos alvarez and renzo mazzetti both one today outgrow basil. Really beaten ishioka first. Time third rounder slam for both now for alcatraz. He's the youngest man to reach around three roland garros. Since seventeen year. Old friend of the pod andrei medvedev in one thousand nine hundred ninety two. He's also now. The youngest man reached the third round at any grand slam since seventeen year old rafael nidal at the two thousand four australian open. He's happening matt. He's happening and you're early. Adopter feels great or the earliest absurd. I know and i believe it's the first time there were three teenagers into round. Three at roland garros mazzetti alcatraz and sinner since two thousand and one which was the original movement. Time right that was that was federa. Roddick and robredo. Oh my god robredo. Being part of the movement he was in qualifying. This week of watched it out still moving just about garage. I love it was about thirty nine. Yeah curled who they got next. Zeti is playing. I slam. i think isn't muzadzi. Has checking out next countryman former semifinalists the calls. But you know winnable and alvarez has out has strength i would say the same but winnable and sinner i think has a has a very winnable one as well so That coming cinna plays emma. Which again send send you jokes in. Today's time to come up with a one liner facility versus emma. Ima beater an injured gemmell. Feace today really bizarre match first top twenty win for it looked very much like gammel fees. Who's gonna retire. After the first set but in fact he went from medical timeout came back broke immediately. Look like sort of classic. Won't feast chaos. Who's going to see. He did win that second set but then then the challenge tape it off phoebus very on serve and an emitted win three in the end we lost aslan corrosive today balti saw that that was that was the biggest shock now say it was a good day for the movement. I don't know what what movement philipp kohlschreiber is opposed. But it's it's a moving a bit slower than it used to but at thirty seven years old. He's he's beaten has line corrective today and that counts as a massive shock. These really good catherine. I'm telling you. I watch this. Because i had vested interest having got current seven my quarter-final lineup so reasonable bad books. But tell you well. Kohlschreiber took him to the cleaners. Today it really did. He just carved him apartment strikes a lovely ball and he just redirected so just a clever seasoned player who may be lacked the weapons to and and the serve and the size to be out to go any higher than he already did and he's really good career. Let's not forget. You be andy roddick. The australian open when roddick was at his absolute best. But it was. This was a shock. Given what we've seen that. Yeah i wasn't i wasn't anticipating it and Yeah very very disappointed in you aslam. He's disappointed in himself. I think if his administration's or anything to go by the could smash was was almost worth the win. He tried to on the side of the. I mean actually. It was a bit bit dangerous. What he did because he smashed on the railing right next to the spectators and then that wasn't enough so we just destroyed into the ground twice tried his trick from your strenuous open of the coin. Catherine i went to it. Yes and and it worked for us at this time but not enough to get him fully back into the match. Someone who will be pleased about that result. I think is diego schwartzman. Because he's been manhandled by corrosive twice this year and now he gets to play thirty-seven-year-old flip kosher instead the manhandled by russia's secret weapon portier. So that's your round up if they five at roland garros. What if you look forward to on the six philippe shirt trae starts with rancor against madison keys who we just just. I mentioned medicine keys. do it's exemplary. She wins tomorrow. We promise to mention her. She'll be the case in casablanca. I think he can win. She's got a better pedigree at this tournament. She beats layla fernandez around two. And i thought that was a really good win. I would have probably thought. Fernandez might win that on form. But then i read moved from fernandez. Who said on a scale of one to ten. I was zero. Sh- i mean great quote but wow alarming. Not even a one in. It's a scale of one to turn against last jira the not before four pm local serena williams against daniel collins much of the day For my money can't wait for that and then not before nine pm. Local time sit to pass against is no. I didn't care you think will win. What time do you think it will finish. I mean that could be early hours really. Yeah we'll that finish before midnight. It goes down three cents interesting scheduling then. All suzanne lenglen. It is kenner against vince. Nina then fanini against federico bonus. Don't make me regret everything i said about yesterday. Fabio then it's a poker against medvedev and then it's playing a hertzog against moore on rocha ver- kunzman much starts with poverty. Shankar against saba linka than nishikori aiming to go fewer than five or. Maybe not. maybe he wants to go. Five sets against henry lacks. And then steve johnson against public booster and then it's dosa against bulk down. So that is tomorrow. Is shot joe foyer. So a couple of lost bits if news the first one from today is the positive covid. Nineteen tests return for two doubles players. They haven't been officially named by the tournament. But nick nick and matty package. The top seeds have been removed from the draw. Really tough for them. They've been practically beatable this year. Mctighe package new partnership all creation partnership for this year targeting the olympics. Yeah just incredibly unfortunate for them. Since the beginning of the tournament on the twenty fourth of may two thousand four forty six tests have been performed on players in their teams and this was the first occurrence in which the tournament organizers must had to remove players in accordance with their health protocol so well it's desperately unfortunate for those to overrule touch wood jr. that is that is a pretty encouraging set of statistics on the covid nineteen front so long may that continue And the second. Bit of news is is rather obsessing. I'm afraid the very sad news. That bill scanlon has died. He was a former top ten. Eighty p player an double. Ncwa singles champion he. He was well known for beating john. Mcenroe the one thousand nine hundred eighty three. Us open and according to chris cleary at the new york times is best remembered in tennis for recording. The men's tools. I golden set in february twenty-second 993. Three he didn't lose a point to marcus hot cheval. In the second set of a first round match in delray beach it was the only one for twenty nine years until yaroslava shred of it did it at wimbledon and remember member bill scotland's named coming up around the time that shred of a golden set a wimbledon very sadly bills. Cannon died of cancer aged sixty four yesterday and in the words of Richard evans friend of the poets and esteemed tennis journalist broadcast see said bills. Gamblin's death will be devastating tool. He knew him. Such a bright energized amusing figure on the brilliant player blessed with red talent. My food with his family r.i.p bills. Say lovely words from richard evans and we echo that absolutely sad loss to the tennis world. We've got mascots. I did better today for disease. Everybody else failed miserably so polluted you like stevens soldier. Mulan mulan enslin stevens menzies. David let- roque down. Let's council muscle down billie jean. Let everybody down today. She did she did so well to be fair. She's she's kept kept him outshot since since that. That one in discussion so improvement for billie jean her husband's obliging king actual words. I get to say we've got shoutouts but before that. I just want to remind you that we have a tennis podcast. Merch t shirts are very much available. You can have a t-shirt attorneys. Relieve t shirt and. I love tennis t shirt or an on the boat. T shirt my mom hasn't on the t shirt. Despite in her own words never ever wanting to go near a bloody boats. So yeah so you can get on the boat without ever having to go on a boat. Lucky so this details in our newsletter. If you not subscribe to these other woody. Doing great case up subscribed all executive producer. Is chris album. He's a top bloke. He never lets us down. Matt hero shoutouts for caroline dove. Oh caroline. that's very poetic. More favorite type of bird right. Is that thing. We have a list of so right star along. Okay thanks a lot. Well that's it. Will be conceiving my thoughts for the rest of the evening. What's your favorite type of bird. Sponsors. the podcast and the next up at the. It'd be funny if i came out with the whole something. No dennis curley job chocolate. I can't fully that. Dennis lake chevelle of thanks. You support and last one. Today is friend of the poet. Sophie smith say a shoutout for tilly. Who is one of the youngest listeners. I think so fees daughter lovely. Thank you so much. Thank you safe. You're a great supporter of the port. And we much appreciate it so that was your day five. French open tennis podcast. Valiantly struggled through the eighth inning two rounds we get to kick off around three in earnest. Murray david matt thank you. Thank you for listening and we'll speak to you tomorrow.

tennis jennifer brady stevens brady goff rome andy roddick bertini bartoli mats wilander Carillo dunbar winker yannick noah Rishaad david mr david mike dillon nadeau Simona halep nidal deve moog ruth
ATP World No. 25 Casper Ruud

Beyond The Baseline

29:48 min | 7 months ago

ATP World No. 25 Casper Ruud

"Support for this. Podcast comes from progressive. What would you do with an extra eight hundred dollars. Buy a plane ticket. Pay down your student loan. Treat yourself to those shoes. You've benign with progressive. You could find out drivers who switch and save save an average of seven hundred ninety six dollars on car insurance get your quote online at progressive dot com and see how much you can be saving national average annual car insurance savings by new customer survey to save with progressive in two thousand nineteen one jonathan here in this week's sports illustrated tennis podcast another busy week in tennis. Full slate of events all over the globe before everyone converges on miami for the miami. Open our guest. This week cast peru. He is twenty two doesn't turn twenty-three until the we christmas he's already the best region player in history. He's a lovely guy. He is rising the ranks. He's sort of a man without a country norway notwithstanding he's a smidge too old for the felix. Oj all seem yada center cohort. He's too young. For the vera. Rubin medvedev cohort But he's a fine player who has had his ranking over the past twelve months or so. This is a fun conversation about norway He sells us on Going to norway. Maybe even living norway. I talked about tennyson covid gives us some thoughts on the big three. He has a special affection for an adult Having trained at the national academy in my phone conversation I enjoyed this. I trust you will as well. Here from acapulco on a day off is casper route. How're you doing. How's your i thought. Your first visit to acapulco it scared it's nice place. It's really hot here so It's a bit of a challenge. I think for especially for me being from norway. But it's a. I've gotten used to it than the and i And i enjoy now. I wanna ask you about nor we can. We can talk tennis in a second but you. Norway sells more electric cars per capita than the us. I you see that commercial real farrell. I didn't know the. Yeah that summarily area Couple of weeks ago. But i know they norway's of big electric car country We have like no taxes or anything on the electric car. So so it's I imagine that it's a bigger than i heard. California norway are like the two biggest places for the electric carts. I feel like. I don't know if sense that coming from there i feel like norway's having a bit of a moment it's become a very very trendy country lately i don't know if you feel maybe i don't know it's not like a very big country. We're not too many people but I feel like most of the americans they've heard about. You know denmark and sweden but not so much norway but Hopefully the next year squeak in Show up show up on the map. A little bit more but Keep keep going what. What should people know about norway. Sorry how do you describe it. What what should. I think you're right. People say oh scandinavia. I've been to copenhagen and i love stockholm what. What should people know about norway. i think that norway's best country gonna navia out of the three No but it's a very nice and calm place Like i said we're not many to many people were only five million or so so It's it's a well working country i would say and we have all four seasons. We have a beautiful summer In oh i think many people refer to or when they think about norway they either. You don't see snow or they see like the beautiful mountains and the fjords that we have Like the scenery there and some cruel mountains. We have where you can kind of be on the edge of Very steep Steep fall so we have some kind of places in knock monuments but like a bucket list places to go. I think if you're wasting norway And yeah like. I said it's i like being from country. The has four seasons Even though you know winters are cold and it's It's can be challenging times for me traveling but Other than that. You know we were. I think we're nice group of people and the welcoming we. We are We're we're happy to for anyone to come into the country invasive and stay as long as they want so i mean it's I think we're a good the good people. Oh you're great ambassador told me what. What's the tennessee like norway. Yeah it's It's not very big tennis. Contrary you know as as you probably could could guess it's it's mostly like what we do like six months of the indoors in six months of the year or so. I mean it's like fifty fifty splits and but but the problem is kind of the tennis culture you know like other countries in europe. Let's say germany or italy or or these places you can have a you have a you have a club and you have a nice restaurant where you can hang out later and have some lunch or even dinner and it's like a more like a hang out place than just a tennis club but while norway we don't really have any Clubs that work like you know where you have a nice restaurant maybe own biological family or something like this were were you know. People would play in our to hang out in the in the restaurants for a couple of our so. I think that's what we're missing a little bit in. Norway become like a big fan. This country Because yeah like. I said that. That's the big thing in. I know like italy. France spain germany a vices with cities. That aren't the biggest but they have like big tennis clubs. Have a they have a restaurant. They have a morsel or it's more like a complete package. So that's the only thing i would say that. That is missing when it comes to gloves in iran. Of course we would like to have some more clubs around the country especially in oslo. Where where. I'm from There are you know lack of course these days so so it's it's it's growing. I would say that the tennyson and more and more people are getting into. I'm thinking the best player in the history of norway. Should go home or a club like that. Yeah hopefully one day only twenty two. I tell me about an adult. I mean yeah you and i met there before. Covert which seems like a different world. Well let me ask you to you. I feel like the rest of the world. There's a sense. Things are snapping. Back in restaurants are starting to open. And they'll you know they'll be some crowds in miami. What what's the sense about cove in the locker room on you guys mean where. Where are you with all. This is getting the vaccine. What's kind of the covid status while no one is getting the vaccine But i think you know majority of place are bit worried. You know these days to travel around too much. there's a risk everywhere we go Obviously we have restrictions at all tournaments. We live in the bubble retirement. Play so i mean. That's that's good but it still like you know you go through airports And there's always a risk wherever you go and there's a risk to be know test positive at a tournament and then be locked up for fourteen days. That's like the biggest fear for the players. I think so. I think it's mixed feelings like some some players you know are very very either trade. They're scared or received too much. You know you've had gylfi on recently announced he stay out of the tour for some time until you feel Ready again like doris Able to be more like normal. And i think like the biggest fear among the players. You know let's say You test positive may be in romar the week before a grand slam you would have to miss the miss out on a grand slam because positive I think that's like the biggest fear so I it's a bit mixed feelings. I think we're all i am. At least you know happy. We were able to play and compete. But it's also you know. Matt risk and like i said i think like airports are an airplanes are the are the biggest risk we go through when we are among other people. Obviously we went. We were wearing masks all all the time when we're traveling but it's still You know your your advice with mars do not touch too much but then on the day. It's such a lot of things than you without knowing you scratch yourself in the head or you know that. That's that's kind of where you you you will He will get the virus from these days. That is very easy to to get it from just touching stuff and you and you touch yourself in your ira or nose or whatever. So i guess it's that's like the biggest one of the biggest share sprouts. Also you know going through the airports These things no no word about when you're going to get vaccinated no not for us I mean i think the i think the majority of players would probably not want to get vaccinated specially with this australia senegal. Which are you know having some Some effects after the vaccine that that you can get a bit sick. But i'm i don't know too much to say about it but but no word on our on this we will get a vaccinated. I don't So you were saying but before any of this craziness We were talking Remember at a very nice conversation with you dolls at a different dan. I'm a different place. What how'd you decide to go there. And what do you tell people about trading in my orca and he decided well i tell him. It's great that you've been there. You've seen the facility. And they're expanding and growing with a new with like fifty new coach or something so it's definitely one of the best ten places to focus on your career in tennessee to become a good tennis players in in the world and my organized places is a nice island especially you know from march until november december months. It's it's a great place to be. You know you have the winter like everywhere else that can be a little bit cold and windy and these things especially my as it an island but ten or nine months of the air. It's it's really beautiful night so you have also having a nice scenery where you can go and relaxed. So it's a perfect. The perfect faith. I think for tennis player you know. Look it's rough on his His is one of the greatest of all time. And that's where he's from and has done all his life and training in my orchestra against that's a good the indication of how good of a place. That is what did you learn from him. Learn observing him. think just that You know i've been. I've been a fan of him. Since i was you know started watching tennis. And he's been my biggest idol and the one that i looked up to the most of all the players and and i remember i think he was probably the first one i watched on tv. And you know dreaming about being on giving myself playing you know big tournaments and big big matches so so. He's kind of one of the one of the reasons. I really wanted to go for a professional career and i remember even from young age knowing your eight or ten years old. You just a dream but then after when you reach twelve. Thirteen fourteen becomes more Real realization And i've i've sorry. I've observed him. You know for many years already and especially getting the chance to go there and my organ become or see him up close and personal and even practicing with him. It's been a very big motivation. And i learned the most you know even though how much she's long is still extremely humble and works as hard today as it did fifteen years ago when he wants to go for more and more and i think that's You know one of the things that defined him as a tennis player you know how hard of a worker reassemble humble. And how determine the is to be become a better player. All the time. I was looking. I was looking for you on social media. You didn't know better. I would think you were a golfer that played a little bit of tennis. Mma very nice swing. But but i'm wondering the golf a distraction or is there stuff from the golf that you can incorporate into your talents out really. I mean it's eye hand coordination both things but The swing is like you have some similarities when generating power from your hips legs. So that's one thing that i would say the same. I'm sure you know. Many players on people could hit a gulfs or driver pretty far because we have a lot of explosive power if you if we needed well so i think that's that's the resemblance but but I mean golf is is something else you had way. More time i think in between your shots Probably thousands of shots but the in the gulf You're between europe between sixty and seventy shots usually so it you you hit way. Fewer shots singles. A speak for yourself. How many shots you know. I'm you know not not for me but when you're when you're a pro i mean pro. The professional guy. Say i mean the me. I'm between seventy eight. So i i can't Against sixty to seventy but seventy to eighty but but the in tennessee hit probably hundreds or even thousands of shots during one much. So but i think one thing that is That has the most largest. I think if you want to win the tournament either in tennis or golf you. You need to perform very well. You know day in day out for at least four days in and tennis is usually five or six Where he played you much everyday. So i think you know the the focus you have in in both sports needs to be on top Throughout the whole week and golf is weekend from thursday to sunday but You know in tennessee also changed on the sunday usually in the finalists on sunday. So there are some things but I i use it mostly for For my own pleasure and fun and enjoying the game enjoying days often legal force. it's you know one thing that i like about golf so you don't have to run this much as kind of your the. I think you're in the running for best golfer in the history of norway to though with the best. What's the what's the best. Course you played played a couple good ones in the states It's tough to say. I mean i played one in orlando. That is cold lake. Nona which i thought was really nice It's more like a private club. Where you where you need to play with a member being led by members. It's not the easiest. Get on. But i was lucky enough couple years ago to play there and you know the the conditions were just great. I know a lot of pj players. They live there on the on the area James poulter and and these guys staying there living there in having their base there so that was a really fun experience and some other places in florida play. The one course gold stream song which is a bit further south than Yeah i wanted to play the bbc grass last time. I was there but it was just done. The sanding of the of the greens and everything was a bit of a the conditions burns. You know what we were hoping for And it was still five hundred bucks so it was I didn't like paying five hundred bucks to play on sand green. So i will i will. I will probably go there. One time in my life to place de sawgrass because i just watched it on on the tv last week when one. It just looks amazing. Just need to walk up to the pro shop and say i'm the best tennis player in the history of in What i work. You're twenty two years old. i think you're ranking you. You cut it by half in the last twelve months just a stock. It's very much headed in the right direction. But i i'm kind of curious for someone in your position. What is your relationship with these. Three guys at the top of one fifty eight majors among them. I mean what were you sort of relative to the big three in. What is the dynamic between a guy like you. Ten years younger twelve years younger fifteen years arrive within the rest of the. What does that sort of a line. It's i think they're all great guys. And you know. I i know rafa the best obviously But played against roger novak in a match and and there were there. Were nice to me both on the court and off the court after the match you know when i see them this they say hi they come up to me and say hi. You know how. You're doing all these things and i think that's really nice. 'cause you know they probably hundreds and thousands of people living their life that they can say hi to and that they actually you know come through say hi to me in the gym or whatever it is. I think that shows that are great. Dies in you know. The last time was a joke. Rich australian open. You know he. He didn't have to come and say hi to main jam when i was warming up but it's still did and i thought it was so. They're they're nice guys and they know how to they know how to you know Behave well and and and depending in the game for a long time. And i think they they maybe they also have some experience when they were growing up. And maybe you know. I don't know sampras game to roger when he was young maybe and said hi. Debbie be rodrido celts. You know that was cool thing. And i'm i'm sure you he. He had someone looked up to one soon copy but i'm sure he knows that it's a nice feeling monday. The young guys to be greeted by him. And and and you know all all three of the guys but you know i was at i know rafa better. And we say high all the time when we see each other at tournaments and each following up. He sends me some messages here and there when i play matches and and do well. So it's he's the most Most our he's as i'm too but the the the two other ones are are just as nice as what do you think. The difference is big difference. Best of three versus best of five. I mean it. It seems like you guys really get your teeth into these events you know the the five hundreds and thousands and even the two fifty s and then when it moves the best of five in. You're playing majors. It's the three guys are still winning a lot. What's what's the biggest difference. Best of three to five. Think for me. The physical product. Think it's tough to to play five centers or even four centers. It's it's something else i'm playing. It's three center Even though you have a day off the day after usually at a grand slam it's it's just for me. I felt like australian. Open this year where i did the best. It was tough to to get the body hundred hundred percent. Ready for every much because You terry you're basically tearing your body apart very much. You play in the in the best of five sets so you're playing three sets at least every month and i think that the three best wants no they. Did they know this there. I feel like they are very sharp in the opening rounds and they they very rarely giveaway and it because they know that it's much more comfortable to win straight-sets than having to play for five sets But obviously they're still able to play five sets as they have during the first round. Be ready for the second on. I think a little bit of experience on on how they've done this in the in the past that they don't have to recover well though you know what's important and what's not as important but you see like rafa how how greedy is usually in the in the first round store stages in In the in the major because he you know he'd rather save the energy for the semi pine lord defines are the quarterfinals or whenever he might be really suffer and You know it's surprised me. You know how well city bus came back from from jersey. Wrote down against rafa at australian. Open where where Rose up to two sets love and it's not often that the he loses when he's up to zero but you know it's it's really sure that was therefore it's he was physically strong enough and mentally ill so i think it's a complete package with physically and mentally but i think for me. I think the i felt at least for now that the it's tough much much tougher physically to play a best of five sets them than three. Because yeah you know you release playing three sets in and the hours are way more than the best out of three much. You can get get out of a you know. Yesterday i played one hour and ten or fifteen minutes but at the at the grand slam you probably at least have to play two hours for two and a half for sure does matter how how easy win them and if you win straight i mean you know roger has one you know so much in one hour and thirty or these things but that's not. That's not normal but usually you have to be two hours in court at least every much play in the grand slam. That's a little bit more and more than usual are more than than best settled reasons. Yeah exactly. I mean i i. When you were in australia i saw. You had a great line. You said sort of now more than ever. I don't have in front of me. You the word. it's now more than ever. It's very important to stay positive. But sort of with the quarantine but with with the travel and with the uncertainty being positive is very important. I think there's a lot to that. What what are you optimistic about right now. What what is the greatest source of positive for you right now. I think that when we come to the summertimes Around wimbledon times. That's what they kind of Speculator hope for that you know things will be almost back to normal We've i think we've been saying that for the last month. You know all the time but you know we we we give more more people get vaccinated You know more and more people can probably come to tournaments Watching again spectators and and we will see what will happen to us players if we can move around more than than before or if still bubble for us. But i think like what. What what motivates most players. Now i think is living like normal again and not having to do the bubble life because the sounds i mean i think it's we are a bit spoiled that we can complain about the bubble life because usually we are very a well taken care of the tournaments and we have a very nice and comfortable life so you know there are many people in the world that are suffering way more than us who have to be in a bubble kind of thing. But it's But i think that's you know motivation. In light of the light in the tunnel reverse players are allowed to go out and have dinner or walk around in the city and the saints. It's it's obvious that the bubble. I just it's It's a challenge in another way than than what usually live star. But i think in the end. That's for me. as well. you know to be able to say play wimbledon. You go out and have her or new york you play the us open. You go to a nice restaurant manhattan. After a good way unorganized and these things are you know things that we enjoy s last. 'cause we we're so focused on our careers and play tennis so much that it's nice to kind of break it off at night with a with a nice meal in a restaurant or walking around in the city seeing seeing the skyline for half an hour or these things are nice nice ways for us and nicely nice way spreads to kind of think about something else. That's not as easy now when we're in the bubble but we we yeah. I think that's one of the biggest motivations for the clare ceases. I one one more question you you did. A great job of selling norway is If you if you were a casual tennis fan and you know hey. There's this young kid from from norway and he hits a nice golf ball and he has a nice two handed backhand what what are up. What if you're a fan of casper route. What are what are you getting. what are you signing. Up for. By if i want to support you. What are you looking to provide me with the well. I think bet You will see as i hope some consistency. You know i'm not the. I'm not the player with you. Know big flashy game. I would say but it's it's it's quite consistent them. I tried to play as aggressive as i can. But i don't mind being being on the defense either and in you know some people would probably look at me as grinder because i do well on clay and play with more topspin than than maybe others and like i said. I'm not like the the biggest flashy showoff player. There is but i have some in my mind that lists some cool winners as well and and the and some big winners you know. I like to run around with a foreign as well and and go from my wieners. Four and so But i think you know consistency and and You can probably say a little bit boring compared to other flashy players. But the you know. I i can't do the jumping back unlike shop or the or the crazy passing. It's like medvedev or these things but the i I'm i'm sticking to my game and and if your family you will you will have a good look. What my game isn't. He will have a good sense of my game. I think good answer. You sold yourself short. Your pure plenty final very last time i saw you. You were number. Fifty number twenty five now so next time we see each other. I want you to be twelve and a half. Okay okay. i would hope he would say one. I would split it again like we met on the halfway but i think that's a long way so hopefully i will sign up. Twelve out is his trades moving in the right direction like like the the battery powered car from norway. Everything's correct this is. I enjoyed this. Thanks lori have to go get going for some warmer warm up. We'll talk soon. Take care perfect by okay. Thanks for casper. Rude fun conversation. That is a self possessed twenty two year old. Look to him for a lot more good stuff on the tennis court. He sells his game of its short to. If i'm allowed to say that He may not have the trick. Shot arsenal of Of nick curious but he's he's good fun to watch casper route is Thanks to casper thanks to jamie. Thanks to our friend. Greg sharko for the suggestion Again jamie Always doing great handiwork behind the scenes technical to the make this happen Thanks to you all for listening. Keep the guest suggestions. Coming leave review. Subscribe itunes stitcher. Were ever get your takeout out. Richard evans new tennis book. By the way we're off next week but will be back soon with another guests have a good week. Everyone picking do do.

norway tennis golf miami yada center Rubin medvedev tennyson covid tennessee romar Norway italy germany acapulco national academy James poulter farrell scandinavia peru
Rock N Roll Archaeology: Episode 20 - Ohio

Pantheon

55:13 min | 10 months ago

Rock N Roll Archaeology: Episode 20 - Ohio

"Raid on time. Who real low. In cleveland to now own in in june of nineteen sixty nine just about a year before story takes place a spark from a passing train lengthy cuyahoga river on fire rolling into cleveland to lake erie the cuyahoga collected industrial pollution. Along the way don't swim in the cuyahoga went the old joke. You won't drown. you'll melt or burn images of a river on fire. On the nightly news catalyzed public opinion in america the environmental movement mood from the fringes into the center of the political conversation. The first ever earth day was held on april. Twenty second nineteen seventy in nineteen. Seventy two congress passed and president richard. Nixon sign the clean water act it took decades but eventually the cuyahoga and lake erie came back to life. But let's stay right here in early. Nineteen seventy the cuyahoga shaped at the headwaters. It moves swift cold and clean nestled along. Its banks before it makes that big cuyahoga ben and start slowing. north into. Cleveland is the splendid little college town of kent ohio. College towns in america are nice places. Nowhere more so than in the mid west and arbor michigan champagne illinois madison. Wisconsin can't tell. I oh lovely little downtown's right out of a norman rockwell painting stately brick buildings and big green lawns dotted with trees striped with walkways. The university boosts the local economy and lends prestige. The attitude is tolerant even a bit bohemian. There's usually a small but lively art and music scene. Lots of good inexpensive places to eat and drink and gather joseph. Walsh was twenty two years old. An english major at kent state. He'd been there while with a draft. Still on joe was in no hurry whatsoever to finish college. He had something going on the side. A pretty good band called the james gang that gigs around the midwest for decent pay they even had a record deal. They put an album out sixty nine and we're ready to record another one. Joe was a fluid and intelligent guitarist. Natural and the caught the some influential people most notably pete townsend that summer of nineteen seventy. Pete would give the james gang their shot opening for the who on a summer tour of america. But we're a little ahead of ourselves now at this point late nineteen seventy as the spring semester comes to a close. Joe hasn't received the offer. He's still at least half as committed to getting his degree eventually can stay would grant him one not quite a while eighty on christine ellen hinde was nineteen an art major just coasting along classes in horseback riding. Even she'd ask around for the courses with the back professors. She earned just enough credits to not get kicked out. Crissy was mostly interested in dropping acid smoking weed and hanging around the live local music scene in kent in our own telling she was a little bit boy. Crazy to chrissy missed out on all that at firestone high school in akron wasn't much going on in akron. Bud she would sneak out of the house and go to concerts nearby. Cleveland one thing hadn't changed since high school. The guys she was in love with were the guys she'd never met the guys who played in bands so along with drawing and painting. She digging up playing guitar. It was starting to get somewhere with it played in a garage band and had some ideas for songs rattling around chrissy was still shy about singing but in time she would get over that her musical tastes were mostly at odds with what was on american radio at the time she wasn't much for the mellow didn't go for the bulk of the singer. Songwriters the velvet underground early stones and kinks were more her speed. The year before christie's got religion from iggy pop when she heard the stooges first album just partying and drifting at kent. No idea about what was next. Prissy was certain about one thing though determined as hell about it. She was giving out of ohio she would see and experience the wider world twenty one year old. Gerald casali was into a lot of things he could write and draw. He was taking guitar lessons. From joe walsh and he was keenly interested in the visual arts and filmmaking enrolled in the honors program at kent state and just a few weeks away from graduating his friend and classmate mark mothers ball at similar tastes and interests. Jerry was also active with the kent state chapter of students for democratic society. The sds we the people of this generation bread in at least modest comfort house now. In universities looking uncomfortably to the world we inherit this simple declaration opened support here on statement the nineteen sixty two manifesto of the sds further down. It reads we would replace power rooted in possession privilege or circumstance by power and uniqueness rooted in love reflectiveness reason and creativity up. Spent eight years had gone by now and the port. Huron idealism seemed like a bitter joke to jerry. In that time over a million young men had been drafted including guys. He knew growing up going to roosevelt high right there. In kent a lot of them went to vietnam and so far over forty thousand of them had died there. In nineteen seventy public opinion was contradictory. A solid majority was against the war but most americans did not want to simply cut their losses in. Walk away from vietnam president. Nixon promised peace with honor throughout nineteen sixty nine and into nineteen seventy america would cling to this flimsy. Rhetorical straw casualties were tapering off. In american troops. Were coming home in dribs and drabs. A few thousand at a time. Perhaps this new president could find a way and a vietnam that didn't feel like a humiliating surrender but even as he made dovish. Declarations in public and announced troop withdrawals. Nixon massively escalated the air war against north vietnam and right after he was sworn in american. B fifty. Two's began carpet bombing the neighboring country of cambodia. Thirteen months later. On thursday april thirtieth nineteen seventy in a nationally televised speech nixon announced. Us ground forces had invaded cambodia. The years of hope had given way to days of rage. So you're getting into jazz. Jubilees go to chicago just the saying. That's how should they be. Won't you please come to chicago the help the we can bring the by the spring of nineteen seventy the anti war movement in general and the particular or adrift and demoralized. Just a couple of years earlier public. Bean seemed to be with them. But that support proved to be fleeting ephemeral upon taking office. The nixon administration immediately brought the full weight of federal law enforcement down upon them. The chicago seven among them. Tom hayden the author of the port. Huron statement were indicted for inciting the riots at the nineteen sixty eight democratic convention. A circus trials started. In the fall. Of sixty nine and ended the following february acquittals on all the federal conspiracy charges but they ended up going to jail anyway on contempt charges. The trump confirmed something that s the had long suspected they were deeply compromised. Chapters and cells had been infiltrated by undercover. Cops stitches informants. It wasn't just paranoia. The man really was out to get them and there was some serious self inflicted damage the previous summer's sds conference. Elden chicago was chaos disastrous cluster. Fuck that's splintered. The organization one of the factions. That arose out of the ashes of the chicago. Meeting was the weather underground. The weatherman took their moniker from bob. Dylan's subterranean homesick blues. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. The weather underground would bring the war home. By building bombs and detonating them at draft offices military installations and businesses than contract with the pentagon. They purged their ranks of all but the most hardcore members and started planning a march. Six nine hundred seventy one of their bombs exploded prematurely in a greenwich village townhouse. A massive blast that incinerated three of their own members the survivors scattered and went deep underground. Mcing canto hieaux jerry. Casali was down for the caused but in his own telling the weatherman were a crazy scary bunch and he wanted no part of that. He was left with no outlet for his rage. Gets the machine. Jerry had an inkling a notion that he would use performance art as his weapon but how along with his friends. Mark mothers bond bob lewis. He was still working on that part. Events intervened nixon's thursday night's speech sparked. Friday demonstrations on campuses across america. And kent state was no exception. Jerry was tired of the fight but galvanized just the same. He would suit up and show up and take his place in front chrissy and jo made the scene on the periphery taking in the speeches chanting and cheering this from kent state. University's official history. An anti-war rally was held at noon. On the commons a large grassy area in the middle of campus which had traditionally been the site for various types of rallies and demonstrations fiery speeches against the war and the nixon administration were given a copy of the constitution was buried to symbolize the murder of the constitution because congress had never declared war and another rally was called for noon on monday may fourth. This podcast is intended to be education. Commentary it will discuss adult themes and may use coarse language pantheon. Podcasts presents rock and roll archaeology with hosts christian swain technology and rock and roll now on with diggers. Welcome to twenty twenty one and welcome to the one thousand nine hundred seventy s. I'm christian swain in. This is rock and rookie. Algae on the pantheon podcast network. Pantheon is the podcast network for music. Lovers where you'll find all kinds of great content to fill your earbuds in between episodes of the in our a pantheon. Podcasts dot com. You know where you can find us wherever you get your great listens. I'm really happy to tell you. We will be getting these out a bit quicker now. I know we've said this before. And of course regardless. It still takes a minute to do them so while you wait. You know there's pantheon. Dozens of quality music podcasts. Just about every day. We drop something cool in new for you including if i can Shameless self-promotion here Sister podcasts to my very own deeper digs in rock again pantheon. Podcast dot com book market. Come back often. We love it. Just do it Okay long and short is that the nineteen seventies are about as different as the nineteen sixties. Were in the fifties. The story just gets bigger and bigger. We really need to pick focus points in try to tell interrelated stories that we hope will add up to a good understanding of rock and roll in this decade. Don't worry all the elements of music culture and technology will still be at each episode. But we know the stories. Rapidly changing and You you'll see some of the change. Come in in this episode More focused means less research to make all the elements together You know the last two episodes we did nineteen sixty nine part. One part two those were huge endeavors to make all those story elements come together. That's why part of the reason why it took so long. So if we can streamline this We can focus more on singular subjects Just because we have to just no way can go about it in the same way that we did in the nineteen fifties and certainly in nineteen sixty in the nineteen sixties and certainly in the nineteen fifties. Much easier way to tell the stories But we figured out a good way to do this So no concern on your part. Okay guarantee all be happy with the results. It just may be a little bit shorter a little bit more concise I think th that. That's probably the way we're going to go. We're gonna pick our targets and and still be able to tell The compelling reason why music culture and technology created this feedback loop all right real quick. We have sponsor We'd like to talk a little bit about harmon audio if you're unfamiliar with harmon They're a manufacturer of many great musical products. One of which is a k. g. And you know what they sent us. This podcast is essential package so it came with the microphone. Usb microphone plugs directly into your computer and it also has its own compression and pre amp in it so no external preempt but is needed. It's it's really cool If he asked me very price conscious plus It's it's a high quality bike front. Sounds pretty good. Doesn't it here so we also got headphones Because there's a headphone jack Right in the microphone. Very very cool and something that you can use for just about anything Certainly at a price point that you can use for just about anything Not just making podcast but You know Vocal duties on a song or even just to make yourself sound like a god or goddess. Remember we are pantheon On your zoom call. It's really that simple. Isn't that so go. Check out a harmony. Or or go checkout ak g you get your good musical equipment all right so like i said up top. We've cleared the nineteen sixties. The nine thousand nine hundred seventy s are here at last rock and roll is now a mature artform and for the next twenty some odd years it's going to dominate popular culture. Like nothing has before. Or since we're going to argue at least you can think of this one as a transitional episode and also maybe an epitaph for the sixties. We're also introducing some people and starting. Some story arcs that we'll be compelling and important as we move through the rock and roll years all right that's it. Let's get going welcome back again. This is episode twenty ohio. There is a revolution come. You will not be like revolution of the past. It will originate with the individual and with culture and it will change the political structure only as its final act will not require violence to succeed. It cannot be successfully resisted by violence. This is the revolution of the new generation. The protest rebellion their culture close music drugs and liberated lifestyle. That's from the back. Cover blurb for a book called the greening of america written by yale. Professor named charles rush. It's a breathless panegyric. To the ascendancy of the hippie counterculture was a big bestseller in nineteen seventy and it was largely true back in chapter sixteen. We opened with the death of hippie. The mock funeral staged by the san francisco diggers just before the summer of love. It was a noble but ultimately doomed effort to take back the youth culture narrative from corporate america the diggers saw it all coming a few years later. Now in nineteen seventy middle school kids. Show up for class and bell bottom jeans up at the blackboard. The teachers wearing them to a psychedelic school. Bus rolling down the street. That wasn't the merry pranksters distributing lsd. That was the partridge family singing. Come on get happy in a wholesome tv. Sitcom america just couldn't get enough of that groovy counterculture except for the politics america. Wanted no part of the politics gallup public opinion poll from nineteen seventy recorded. Single-digit approval ratings for the weatherman. They came in one point. Higher than the ultra right-wing. John birch society in now is about as far as it went. The weatherman predicted a revolution. And they were half right. Their political revolution died boring. But the cultural revolution the commodification mainstreaming of rock slash youth culture. That revolution was complete and total. Victory by nineteen seventy the fashion. The music that hippie aesthetic were all put to work serving the almighty god of the marketplace radical and extreme became buzzwords for selling laundry soap and soda pop by the time people virtually who was strictly from commercial. Stoop on tv. The mod squad was a hit. Primetime cop show sitcoms like the partridge family and saturday. Morning cartoons like josie and the pussycats. The first kid show that featured a black woman as a main character by the way at the movies. The woodstock documentary was a smash critically acclaimed and he was one of the highest grossing films of nineteen seventy on broadway hair and jesus christ superstar. Were long run. He hits and they hit the road to play to packed houses in peoria and blocks for better or worse from now until forever rock and roll is commodified. It will also become increasingly professionalized. It's beyond ironic a form of expression that set out to subvert the dominant paradigm has become the dominant paradigm diet. Coke get that coca cola taste without the calories commercial rock get that revolutionary feeling but without the actual revolution. It's the way of things. Now keep it dope with religion sex and tv. And you think you're so clever classless a. You're still fucking peasants as far as c. Glass he'll to okay. That's kind of harsha bit cynical. We realize it's not like rock music. Just all of a sudden started sucking right around. Nineteen seventy very much to the contrary the early seventies kick ass musically and before long will see a counter counter revolution led by a new generation of rockers. And we've already met a couple of them chrissie hynde the pretenders and jerry casali of devaux discussion. This thing we choose to call the rock paradox. It takes many forms like the paradox of making big bucks off of something that is explicitly and very loudly anti-capitalist. The song we just played working class hero by john. Lennon is an example the absolute classic case in just a few years in early nineteen seventy-three money by pink floyd will be a major worldwide hit this biting critique of capitalist greed will be a commercial smash that anchors one of the most consequential and profitable rock albums ever made. Here's another one in. Its early years. Rock and roll got much of its dynamism from the tension between the mainstream and the underground by nineteen seventy. It's big enough to contain the mainstream and the alternative the fake and the authentic all within the same industry. Now they're just competing factions under the same umbrella an industry that manufactures what can't be manufactured. What the rock writer lester bangs in one of his more acerbic mrs called the industry of cool and yet another one seventies glam rock artists will send up the very idea of rock stardom celebrated even as they harshly critique it it hit speak paradox with nineteen seventy one's ziggy stardust wherein. The rock star. David bowie offers a cautionary tale about being a rock star. Starting here in the nineteen seventies and going forward rock will oftentimes be defined by its own contradictions. Burn thank you. We can always count on. Motown bring the fun. Even a tough transitional kind of year like nineteen seventy but there's a darker context around motown's offering of fluffy pop fun. The jackson five put out three number. One singles nineteen seventy but when stars war on the motown subsidiary. Tamla top them all in sales and airplay. By year's end bala confusion by the temptations was also a big hit and seventy and it became one of the temps signature tunes. They're mixing socially conscious message with funk and soul and psychedelic rock now busy clearing out the landing zone for the imminent arrival of the parliament funk. Delic mothership the incomparable transcendence db wonders scored his own smash in one thousand nine hundred seventy with signed sealed delivered but well before the year is done. St will be back at work on a tougher sound on songs that pointedly addressed the gritty realities of life in black america. Mo town in detroit and stacks in memphis two thirds of the soul triangle. We described back in chapter six and thirteen. The music of black america is transitioning again taking in current events responding to them and ruin up something a lot tougher far more topical than abc. Easy as one two three early morning. December fourth nineteen sixty nine backed by the fbi chicago police wielding shotguns submachine guns raided the apartment of twenty one year. Old fred hampton. Fred was chair of the illinois black panthers and the deputy chair of the national. There's he was murdered by police while he slept beside his girlfriend. Deborah nine months pregnant with their son. No warning no knock. They just kicked in the door and started shooting over. One hundred shots were fired. One shot one came from fred's bodyguard twenty two year old mark sitting by the front door. Cradling shotgun discharged. his shotgun. harmlessly into the floor as he fell over dead in a hail of bullets. The rest of the shots all came from the cops. It took twenty five years to uncover the facts but thanks to the freedom of information act. We now know it was pure murder. A premeditated government hit sanctioned at the highest levels with malice. Aforethought an undercover. Fbi agent dosed. Fred's food with a sedative the night before to make sure he was fast asleep when the chicago. Pd made their predawn raid under fred hampton's leadership the illinois. Panthers organized free meals for school kids. They started a free clinic on the south side and raised awareness about sickle cell anemia. Fred advocated violence only in self-defense. And committed the panthers to cooperating with other groups to bring about systemic social change. None of that mattered to the fbi. Under j. edgar hoover and richard nixon fred hampton was deemed a radical threat to be terminated with extreme prejudice the illinois attorney general after a perfunctory internal investigation ruled hamptons. Police murder a justifiable side. There was no federal investigation. We'll come back to the story and the music around it in a later chapter right now. It's meant to illustrate a point about backlash and about state-sponsored violence bad as it was in chicago at kent state and elsewhere why college kids were just getting a little taste. What black america had been enduring for many generations early spring of nine hundred seventy four of the whitest dudes around crosby stills. Nash and young released their long awaited. Follow up album deja vu. It was the product of about eight hundred cocaine fueled hours in the recording studio about twice as much diamonds. The beatles spent insurgent pepper deja-vu shipped two million units on release. It was multi-platinum. Right out of the gate. Deja-vu sold huge but it was overcoat in over-cooked produced to the nth degree the soaring harmonies and type production. Values were there but deja vu. Had little of the charm and authenticity. That made cbsn's debuts special the title cut is amazing. One of crosby's finest. It's also a cut in pay studio creation. That couldn't really be replicated. Live stephen stills arrangement of joni mitchell's woodstock turn her folk meditation into a balls out majestic rock anthem. Graham nashes teach. Your children is sweetly idealistic. Kinda of like graham is and it's propelled along by jerry. Garcia is exquisite pedal steel track. And of course throughout the album though. Spine tingling vogue armies Saw so deja vu is not without its moments. But it's got some real clunkers on a to graham nash cleanly sickly sweet our houses enough to induce diabetes for us. It's bottoms out with almost cut. My hair wherein david crosby interjects paranoid coquette dribble into a smoking stills young guitar duel neil. Young's contributions are slight. He was playing with crazy horse during the afternoons and going to the studio to cut tracks with c. n. y. at night help us a wistful slow. Remembrance of neal's canadian hope tan was a throw away from the crazy horse sessions. most of neal's instrumental parts were stepped on the final mix. Or just wipe. Completely stephen stills oversaw the mixed down without input from neil if neal was put out by that he didn't stick around to make his unhappiness known. Neil be neil. Knee was already onto the next thing. Here's neil and the horse and a quote from jimmy mcdonough taken from his two thousand two book shaky. A biography of neil young ask much sixth and seventh. The band played acqua sets over at fillmore east. And these recordings capture the horse and all of the glory head back and is closed as he weighing some brain six. Scream out of all blackie young. Looks like he's lost in the stars behind the scenes though. Not everything was groovy. Come on baby. Let's go downtown tower. Danny whitten sings on his one contribution to the fillmore shows and he was alluding to his new passion in his life. Which was heroin myself. i love you. They sharing the punch taking the acid test. Passing the joint. That was the sixties. Maybe i'll be there to shake your hand. Maybe i'll be there to share the land when we all live together. The seventies are off doing lines in the bathroom. And i caught you knocking on my cellar gone gone. The damage done. Rockstars are multimillionaires now. Heroine coke coker in the party favours. The new elite drug culture so closely intertwined with rock culture is no longer turn on tune in. It's more like tune it out in turning inward turn it on yourself sometimes to the point where there's no coming back but there's a whole decade ahead of us plenty of time to talk more about this stuff. We'll get there right now. Let's check in in our college kids joe and khorasan jerry and you know what champagne cocaine. They're in college. They can't afford that shit in nineteen seventy or in any other year g. Beer boone's farm apple wine. Smoke some homegrown. Maybe some pep pills for finals week. And maybe tab of acid for the show maybe all the above around do again bond buyer at the rotc building. Tell me in your a. did this a things. Men and the restless Bring yup stop after the friday afternoon. Rally the crowd dispersed. But the anger didn't on water street students lit fires in trashcans. Threw bottles a cop. Cars disrupted traffic and started breaking windows. Someone's smashed bank window and alarm went off and the cop showed up in force at twelve thirty and the mayor declared a state of emergency and closed down all the downtown bars not a bright decision it just increased. The size of the crowd gathered in the street combined. City and county police forces used tear gas to push the crowd back to the university in ended around two am in a tense standoff. The city police would not cross the border onto university property but any student who ventured even one step off campus got roughed up and tossed in jail. Fifteen arrests were made the following day. The mayor instituted a curfew and banned the sale of alcohol firearms and gasoline within city limits. This is kevin c. Smith from his two thousand thirteen re combo dna far from virgin further violence. The measure seemed to have precisely the opposite effect by the end of the evening around. One thousand students who would most likely have otherwise. Been downtown on a saturday. Night had gathered around the rotc building which had long been a source of irritation among antiwar activists mentality to cold the wooden structure was bombarded with the combination of rocks garbage cans and road flares. At this point the national guard was called in and they quickly dispersed the crowd with more tear gas but the rotc building was already gutted by flames and it would take firefighters hours to finally extinguish it. the protesters had got the hoses bridgestone. Pole ohio governor stewart rhodes was to move up. He was a hotly contested race for the republican nomination for us senator from ohio. The primary election was three days away on tuesday. May six e wasn't going to miss an opportunity to do some law and order a grandstanding sunday morning. Roads held a press conference where he spewed incendiary rhetoric at these students then. He pounded his desk and declared martial law on the kent campus. He summoned a full battalion. A- bohio national guard to make it stick all demonstrations were banned and the guardsmen. Were ordered to shoot on sight lueders and anyone seen cutting fire hoses. Monday morning was tense but quiet. Classes resumed or cut short ten thirty. Am the word started to spread around campus. The rally scheduled for noon was on guard or no guard ban or no ban There are numerous accounts of the kent state massacre. The story has been well told elsewhere we refer you to the show notes for links to our research. The simple backs tell the story pretty well at twelve twenty four pm accompany one hundred sixteen soldiers the national guard lined up raise their rifles and fired into a dense crowd of unarmed students. At the time they opened fire the nearest student was at least fifty feet away. Thirteen seconds sixty seven shots nine seriously wounded one of them. Paralysed for life and for dead for the killers. There would be no consequences. Nobody was ever arrested. Fine demoted or disciplined in any way for the events at kent state that day jerry. Casali saw them raise rifles and thought it was joke. a bluff the guardsmen. We're just posturing. Then they opened fire. He turned to run immediately. Saw a nineteen year old alison krauss crumpled to the ground fatally wounded as soon as the shooting stopped. One of the guardsmen. Got on a bullhorn in. Everyone's stay put. Don't move shaking. Jerry sat down and so and heard a girl about thirty feet away kneeling and gesturing wildly screaming for help only later when he saw the photograph did he realize that it was mary. Ann vecchio kneeling over the body of twenty year. Old jeffrey miller that shot taken by photojournalist and kent state grad and john hilo is one of the iconic images of the twentieth century the one him a pulitzer prize amid the smoke and chaos of the aftermath chrissie. Hi just shut down. She knew geoffrey miller. He was dating one of christie's girlfriends. She just sat down cross legged on the grass and wouldn't move. Some friends found her there. In a near catatonic state. The softly spoke to her gently picked her up and carried her away to safety later. That day chrissy caught a ride back to her parents. House in akron. Crecy never went back to college. Joe walsh was running late for the rally. He was hurrying around the corner of a nearby building when he heard what he thought was a string of firecrackers. Then the screams reached him the panic. The horror of the situation quickly sunk. In and joe knew right away he would not be finishing school at kent state the whole town. The whole scene just died. Joe said in a twenty twenty interview with marc maron on the w. t. f. podcast. He accepted the to offer left and never looked back. Can state university was evacuated completely enclosed for nearly a month as a graduating senior jerry. Caselli came back to campus one last time to pick up his diploma. All i can tell you is that a completely and utterly changed my life. He said in two thousand and three. I was a white hippie boy. And then i saw exit wounds from m one rifles out of the backs of two people. I knew cute re the software. Neil young there's a time tested formula for pop songs. Tell a good story to a strong beat. Come up with a sing along hook for a course lather. Rinse repeat folks have been doing it. For as long as we can. Remember using that formula to excess anger and convey anguish. Is something else entirely though. Only the most gifted writers can take those feelings and we them into a hit song becomes a enduring cultural artifact. Neil young is one of those. That's the rare company. He keeps a songwriter about a week. After the kent state shootings on may twelfth. see us. and why did a concert. in denver. A warm-up show for national summer tour. Neil had been touring all spring with crazy horse. Honing in refining the songs that would inhabit his third solo album after the gold rush released in august nineteen seventy and his sublime nineteen seventy seventy-two release harvest. Neil felt easy felt at home plane with the horse. He didn't really need see us and why didn't want to mess with it. Any of it but a deal is a deal. Neil reluctantly told the fellas in crazy horse to sit tight a few months. While he toured with david. And stephen and graham they made it through one night. The denver show was a shambolic disjointed performance. The audience didn't seem to notice or care they loved it anyway. but rapturous response didn't fool neil one bit. It just pissed him off even more. The other guys was a bus to afterwards graham. Nash asked rhetorically question of his bandmates. If the music's not there then why the fuck would we want to do it in front of people. Nobody had a good answer over the next few days. The tour was on again off again several times. Only the personal intervention of amid oregon. The president of atlantic records saved it. Ahmet reminded the boys that halls were sold out. Reservations were made staff was hired and millions of dollars down the drain. The tour abruptly cancelled amid gave his temperamental superstars. The rock and roll version of you guys do that and you'll never work in this town again. The four them manage to set ego and grievance aside and agreed to give it another go. Rehearsals would begin. May twenty first in. La here's the rolling stone writer. David brown from his excellent twenty nineteen biography of cs ny goop scattered briefly to look its collective wounds with crosby and young heading north to the redwoods in case pesky zero on the morning of may nineteenth four days after the band meeting. Someone of the house went for groceries and at the time the country's most popular photo driven news weekly was life magazine. Tragedy at kent. Read the cover line next to a photo of students leaning over the body befallen man the photos. That took eleven pages of the magazine offered visceral chronicle of the events as crosby watched young picked up a guitar and in short order wrote and sang zone. He called ohio about soldiers. Nixon students being gunned down Don three weeks. After the shooting crosby stills nash and young convenient for a late night recording session at the record plant hollywood after a few run throws they went ahead and ruled tape for civil takes. Interestingly it was recorded like neil young tends to do things live the studio. Even the vocals. Stephen thought it should have one more verse but he might have his own and contented himself with plane. Some hot guitar and singing backups. After a few hours they went with one of the early takes because they all love. David's anguish cries during the final chant of four dead in ohio. Crosby damn near broke the microphone on that one eleven days later atlantic released ohio as a single. The b. side was an acoustic gem. Written by stephen stills find the cost of freedom it peaked at number fourteen. A lot of mainstream radio stations wouldn't play ohio. That probably helped sell. It just added to the buzz around the song. Some call it the last great protest song. Not really there've been others. Since then kneels own rocketed. The free world comes to mind immediately or green day's american idiot or for that matter. Twenty eight teams and this is america by daniel. Glover insanely great. Sohn's all of them but we can't think of a protest song since nineteen seventy was so highly specific and immediate in that regard. Ohio is definitely unique. Great fucking song to by the way we love it. When neil young spits out some righteous anger so we'll put down a marker here this is an inflection point so diggers if you were tired of all our talk about the new left in america and its ties to rock and roll. Well we've got some great news for you. That discussion is wrapping up like hunter s. thompson said We've quoted him a couple of times now. The wave crest and crashed and it rolled back. We will continue to place rock music and rock artists into the cultural and social context of the times. But we'll approach it from other angles from here on out. We're just gonna leave this right here. We're moving on to distant lands. Now and here's a little taste of what's next and if i say count mean i'm christian swain and this is rock and roll archaeology. Thanks for listening. Stay safe and keep up the rockin payment bag rock and roll archaeology. It's written by. Richard evans and christians wayne produced and hosted by christian swain. I'll sound design and incidental music by jerry danielson busy signals studios find all our shows notes and leaks at pantheon. Podcasts dot com all can be purchased or streaming. Wherever you get your great music. Please pick up these amazing tracks. Contact us on social pantheon. Podcasts on facebook and instagram. Tweet us at pantheon pods.

cuyahoga america chrissy chicago Nixon nixon administration ohio kent lake erie Casali Jerry president richard vietnam akron christine ellen hinde firestone high school jerry fred hampton Gerald casali kent state chapter of students
Part One: Hitler's Drug Problem

Behind the Bastards

1:19:40 hr | 2 months ago

Part One: Hitler's Drug Problem

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You taken shitloads a mess. My hitler i'm robert evans. This is behind the bastards. The podcast retail you. Everything you don't know about the worst people in all of this. Today's episode stuff that you think you know but you actually don't know the specifics in the way that you probably think you do. Maybe anywhere top. Ten interest to this podcast. Thank you so. Welcome german my producer and legally boss and my guest. Today i would like to introduce the wonderful carolina barlow carolina. You're a writer. And co host of the ron burgundy podcast and the true romance podcast carolina. Yes is will ferrell nice in person. He is a toxic overlord barrels. Actually the nicest person i've ever met these nicer than i think most members of my family and yours. I'm just assuming No i think you're wing. How kind he is and yeah. He's he's sophie. Yes you french to my dog. How does his hair smell okay. This is a great question. Thank you very good at grooming and he always smells really nice has skincare is amazing and i believe he may still be using this product but once we were on a press tour with mark wahlberg who was using a lot of a brand called moroccan oil. Yes we in by. I'm not this is not an ad but you can buy pretty much anywhere will decided way messing up. The story was using. a bra. uses a brand called moroccan oil and mark. Wahlberg was obsessed with it and so we ended up talking about it a lot on a press tour and moroccan oil. Then santa's a bunch of moroccan oil. So i believe he's still that but it smells incredible. Well this is. This is actually a lot more information than i expected. Welcome to the celebrity corner. Will we talk about different. Celebrities hair smells next up. Now we're talking about. We are talking about a celebrity today babies because it's the probably like pissing chat piss shit all the time test completely. Actually you know who else could diaper. I totally forgot. You know who else smelled like shit. Oh this oh. This is so accurate and is the celebrity. I don't wear awkward title for him. He is a celebrity. He's a very famous man arguably more famous than any living celebrity. I'm not gonna not gonna give hitler celebrity title. You can say a lot of bad things about the man but he has brand recognition. Okay they're really going from polar opposites. We're talking about one done. You don't even last name exactly. Just hitler's going for him. Like the nicest person ever of will ferrell to the worst person. Ever to adolf hitler so quick. He's also his name's kind of been a verb. Because you can like i don't know about y'all but like when my friends are being kinda hitlerian right. Now you're getting a little hitler on all of us here. Maybe calm down. So he's like he's like google been done something so should he. I would spring enough. Well this one time my buddy. Mike annex the sudeten land and we pretty pissed at him. That's fair Yeah that's app carolina. What do you. How do you feel about drugs. Drugs i don't do drugs because when i was young i did them too much and then i had to stop and actually in the same boat. I drink sometimes take crate him. But i my doing illegal drugs. Days are long long behind me. Because i damaged my brain too much. You've what have you heard about the nazis in drugs. I know that they did a lot of them. And i think worldwide too much like the civil war was a pretty crazy time and vietnam. Wars generally and drugs actually tend to mix well together absolutely a great time to get wasted. Yeah when you're at a war zone. I can say that from experience and so there's into doesn't sixteen german novelist and screenwriter. Norman older published a book a work of historic nonfiction. In the united states. It was released under the title. Blitzed drugs in nazi germany. A lot of people heard of this book international but it was a huge huge fucking book. I'm gonna guess most of the people listening to the episode right now. Either heard of it or you read some article that was based on kind of the media campaign around this because literally every major news website and magazine on the fucking planet published interviews with this guy or at least kind of like right ups. That were summarizing. The book the guardians article during this period. It's kind of emblematic of the whole. It was titled high. Hitler which is a fun. Fun tile nice little play on heil hitler and it's also really appropriate. Because the reason hitler was getting high was for his health and hialeah. They're literally means health to hitler. But anyway that's the point older makes i'm gonna read upon. It is a nice little pun. I'm gonna read a sample paragraph from that article. Talking about older woke work. The book in question is the total rush or to use it superior. English title blitzed which reveals the astonishing and hitherto largely untold story of the third reich's relationship with drugs including cocaine heroin morphine and above all methamphetamines. And of their effect. Not only on hitler's final days. The fewer by owners account was an absolute junkie with ruined veins. By the time he retreated to the last of his bunkers but on the vermont successful invasion of france in nineteen forty published in germany last year where it became a bestseller it has since been translated into eighteen. Languages effect that delights older but also amazes him and this is interesting. I'm starting not kind of the way we normally do. But just sort of giving the history by talking about this book because it is so prominent. In the years that i've been doing behind the bastards. I probably had a couple of hundred different people. Email me or ask me sometimes in person. If i've read blitzed and tell me that. I had to do an episode on hitler's drug addiction in this episode. But i have to tell you a decent chunk of this is actually going to be kind of critiquing blitzed. And we're broadly critiquing. Kind of how the media presented it and wanna clarify up top. I don't think blitzed is a bad book where that older is a bad guy. I think his work is in some ways victim of its own of his own success. If you start. Googling around permutations of phrases like hitler's drug addiction or drugs and nazi germany. Nazi germany or the nazis and meth about seventy percent of the search results see are going to be articles based on norman's kind of rewriting the same thing over and over again and this makes his book fairly unique in the field of nazi studies. The third reich is the single most widely studied and written about regime in political history. There are governments on the planet right now who produce less who have produced to date less documentation for their government bureaucracy than there is historic works written about the third reich. No other government has had more scholars devote their lives to examining an no state has had so many pages of quality historical writing dedicated to its history and looming. Include the great minds have written about the third reich throughout history. We quickly become clogged with genius. There's william shirer erin ian kershaw. John toland volker. Rick richard evans and hannah arendt just to name a few and the fact that in five years norman older has become one of the most recognized. Writers nazi history is due to the subject matter of his book namely people like drugs and people are fascinated by the nazis. And if you combine those two things you're going to sell a lot of fucking books and one of the reasons this frustrate some historians is that some of the stuff that older wrote about had been well documented before he came into the picture for example pervert and which is the methamphetamine that the nazis primarily took a lot of scholars wrote about the user perfect and by nazis. During the blitzkrieg. We're older broke. New ground was in making a detailed study about the personal notes in professional journals of a guy named dr theodore morrell who is one of hitler's personal physicians and his primary dope dealer. Morell was not an unknown quantity to historians previously but older spends a lot of time digging into precisely what he gave. Hitler and how it may impact it history. Half of the controversy among historians about blitzed revolves around the language used in this book. Older is not a historian. He's not a scholar he's writing in a pop nonfiction cadence vocabulary so this is closer to a guy like who's that fucking guy. Everybody hates now but everybody loved while we're at the tipping point. Malcolm glad well his. I'm not. I'm not saying he's i think is much more responsible. But now but he he's closer to the guel into the spectrum that kind of pop nonfiction and he is to a scholar. Like ian kershaw you know and that frustrates scholars because his work has been so influential. Right you kind of pissed off when like you. You do detailed painstaking analyses of these guys and then some dude kind of throws at a book. Maybe maybe exaggerate some things and uses some like flagrant language and is much more popular than any work by a scholar. Wherever be that frustrated people. And i don't think that that means it's not. There is good scholarship in this. And there's in fact groundbreaking scholarship in this ian kershaw. Who is probably the single. Most prominent biographer of hitler. Alive today called. This is serious work of scholarship and praised it. Richard evans on the other hand. Also very well respected. Hated this book. So it's not like there's i don't want to come across the saying there's an agreement among scholars that this book is bad or that. There's an agreement that it's good. I tend to think it did more good than harm but it was written to appeal to the masses and be a popular book in it. Absolutely is now the other half of the controversy around blitz revolves around some of the more serious issues with the way older presents. His research namely he suffers from the same problem. Most people do when they zero in on a very specific aspect of the nazi regime. He's gotten so into the weeds on this topic that he lends it wait that sometimes disproportionate to its actual. The saving happens to people. Studying the occult and nazis right because there is like a really fascinating history of like esoteric hitlerism colt nazism. But it also wasn't nearly as influential as the people who write books about it put it on as and in fact by nineteen forty one. It was pretty much out of any kind of influence in the party. That's your thing you're going to seek to kind of hell boy things up a little you know. So this is like a long winded way of saying it's debatable. No it's a long way of trying to give caveats what are not saying. It's a bad book but saying it's a good book that i think because he's so focused on the drugs tins to ignore other reasons for some of the behavior outlining that are not drugs. Yeah i wonder if it's dangerous. This is speaking without reading the book. I think it may be dangerous to blame anything on drug use. I don't think that's a that. Is the chief criticism. The historians that dislike him make and he's actually pretty careful. He's careful in his book to say like i am not saying hitler's horrible crimes are the result because one of the things he does. He points out as we'll go into most of the hardcore drug abuse from hitler started in the forties when he already set everything in motion that he was going to set in the heels. Were already pretty. Yeah the reichstag was going down here. But he's saying like it's worth noting if a guy is fucked up on meth and cocaine and opium all of the time. And he's a warlord. It's worth wondering like how does that impact is decision making process which i think is a fair question right like obviously there is a danger when you do that but it's also i don't think that means you shouldn't look at like well. What was this doctor. Shooting into the veins of this man making these incredibly influential decisions is the same way that like. It's worth looking at how the methamphetamine. Jfk took impacted his decision making during the cuban missile crisis. And shit right like it is a a problem or trump. And it's certainly not like. I don't want to agree. That's a worry. But i also don't think we should be like well. Let's not talk about this just because some people actually slowly. Im implying that leaning into it too hard giving it just wait. I can see it distracting from a serious threat. That was definitely worsened by drugs. I mean it's interesting vietnam towards the end of vietnam all the soldiers. American soldiers were getting really messed up on all the kinds of pills that were just very prevalent in the sixties and seventies like quails black beauties. Speed anything to keep them up and increased a lot of paranoia. Especially when there's an enemy that you know quote unquote enemy viet cong. Who aren't in uniforms. You're paranoid can increase. It could make you more violent with or without these drugs. The vietnam war is still inherently a crime against humanity but drugs. Don't help help how there's a question to the nazis right where you don't want to like a lot of these. These these very mark soldiers were going days without sleeping and taking amphetamine and some of them committed horrible atrocities. You don't want to like the atrocities number. One were often ordered by people who were certainly not drugged out of their minds where planned pretty extensively ahead of time. That said the fact that a lot of these guys are on meth and like flipping out in burning down villages. Some of that's probably due to the fact that they're they're fucked up on methamphetamine right like not necessarily like the the concerted genocide actions. Were there shooting forty thousand people today but like oh yeah they get shot at by partisan they burn down village. And maybe that's some guys who were tweaked out on speed. Overreact like flipping out in the same way that like. Yeah maybe it had an impact. Then you can say that i didn't want to know. Okay well you have. Millions of men going days without sleeping heavily-armed taking methamphetamine. I bet that has an influence on their behavior. Without saying the nazis killed millions of russian civilians because they were on meth which is not the case they kill millions of russian civilians because the war from the beginning was a genocidal crusade. A i don't know. I don't want to like i don't wanna like veer away from what is an interesting question just because people can people can simplify it to the extent that gets fucked up because i do think this is a fascinating question. We're going to be talking a lot about olders findings here because i do agree with ian kershaw who described it as a series piece of scholarship. He goes into. He's not just like cutting up other bits of reporting he looks at a lot of original primary sources. he's combing through. I don't think anyone else ever did. Dr theodore morales hitler's primary physicians notes in exhaustive detail researching the medicines. He's getting. There's a lot of very important scholarship. I think in his findings. But i also will be laying out some areas. Where olders conclusions do not gel with the actual evidence and there are some points there so let's start by talking about drug culture in weimar germany as a refresher the weimar government was a progressive democracy that followed after the kaiser's monarchy went away and was eventually eaten up by hitler. Like the fifteen or so years. it existed. Weimar was a dizzying lead. Progressive government for its time. Berlin became a magnet for the lgbt community. And the site of the first very first serious research on healthcare for trans people. Art and music flourished. And as you'd expect from a city full of bohemian artists and musician people were getting fucked up all the time. Like i mean. Just just really expect glen. Yeah exactly like real creative drug use because like berlin is berlin is what what would places like. New chunks of new york and chunks of california became in the sixties and seventies berlin. Is that in the fucking twenty and this photographs. You can find berlin and twenty dollars. Yeah people are in. It's very casual. It's actually completely. There's a flamboyant like fun roaring twenties quality Yeah it some fascinating time to study. And this put one of the things that i think is critique about older is he when he's talking about drug use in germany. He focuses heavily on berlin. And the berlin hella drug use but also berlin drug use in direct contrast. What's going on. In the rest of germany not only was most of germany much more socially conservative think about like portland oregon versus the surrounding areas. Right but the use of recreational drugs like cocaine was markedly uncommon in germany and not even particularly common in berlin is. We'll talk about. It's worth noting that at this time. Most germans across the country would not have considered tobacco alcohol drugs so when we're talking about drug use. Those are not drugs to germans in the twenty s. That's like milk to them. Both were so ubiquitous that they were considered to be a part of a person's diet and interestingly enough both communist and nazi leaders in europe at this time hated tobacco. Linen was famously anti-cigarette right. So was hitler obviously linens anti-cigarette shit didn't last one stock. Stolen loved him. Some smoking and hitler hated cigarettes. But there was never really any sort of. They like he had to kind of accept like well. I'm not going to get germans to stop smoking like that's not gonna happen. Yeah they were. He was definitely kind of straight edge. Yeah and we'll talk about this more later. But for the most part throughout the twenties nazis communists smokin dress smoked and drank about as much as everybody else. So again while there's nazi and communist leaders who are being like no you need to struggle towards revolution and be sober for that most communists. Most nazis are getting drunk and smoking else and so when we talk about drugs in germany. What what i mean by drugs is hard stimulants like cocaine and methamphetamine. As well as opiates germany was actually the world leader in drug manufacturing. This yes more. Bayer exactly morphine. Had i been isolated by a german chemist in the early eighteen hundreds it was rediscovered patented and mass produced by bayer in eighteen. Ninety eight by the end of world war one morphine was the number one product of the entire german pharmaceutical industry. They were shipping. This stuff out everywhere. Because it's the most addictive thing in the world caen that owns that first manufacturing plant germany was the sackler later almost sponsor for the opioid epidemic. We're currently facing up states. Good people we've talked about larks. Yeah there's some. Other bayer products made during the nazi regime that we could talk about to like heroin. Ties as later than morphine. I mean in a lot of this shit is otc in germany. At the time right and bayer is the first to produce and sell heroin and actually heroin stays over the counter in germany in the nineteen fifties god to live in those times to just walk down to the corner store and get a big fat bagel horse smoke. It and i don't know it doesn't really matter yeah. It doesn't really matter in your smoking. Heroin so now by a lot this point heroin has become like a legal in the us and a lot of asia. At least if you're taking like you can't just go and get it over the counter right. Maybe it's more prescribed than it than it was that it was not like. You couldn't just walk in and buy it as a person but you can in germany and so germany. Since everything's of legal there becomes the nexus for an international gray and black market drug trade in heroin and these german swiss companies will kind of us germany as a base and will they're not directly selling illegally underground and countries. But they're putting it in position to be sold that way and they're profiting from it. I'm going to quote from a write up scholar named jonathan levy here booth morphine and heroin. We're consumed germany. During the weimar years in the third reich. The morphine was far more popular than it's more potent cousin. Perhaps explaining merck's decision to cease. Its dia settle morphine program. The number of addicts and germany is difficult to ascertain like many drug statistics. The reported numbers of ad addicts are mere guesstimates rather than reliable figures mainly because it is next to impossible to differentiate between addicts and users. Now the best evidence seems to suggest that the rate of opioid addiction in germany increased from the start of the warriors. And by that i mean world war one until about nineteen twenty two which is probably caused by the same thing that drives a lot of us in the us today which is wounded soldiers getting yet on it right getting prescribed much of it as they want having developing a problem but by thank them in the civil war too. Yeah yeah every time. Every time a lot of men get wounded a jewish got hooked on it. I mean it's funny. You say guests makes just ring that sacra book. Everyone is waiting. They said they said the estimate was a quarter of a million soldiers in the united states. Hooked on morphine. And that even theodore roosevelt basically created a position for someone to fight this quote unquote epidemic. Yeah i mean that that completely completely make sense especially when it is like ass available as you just bumped down to the street and buy it. Why wouldn't you take on j irwin now. By one thousand nine hundred forty one though. The rate of addiction seems to have fallen germany. Obviously none of our data is perfect but it may have just been a matter of like enough time had passed since the war people had recovered enough. Some of them had probably died. One leader in the reich health office at that point estimated that point three male addicts pretend thousand people in germany which is probably nonsense but he also noted that one in one hundred doctors were addicts and this is probably much more accurate number. Include in part because like a lot of these guys have been prosecuted for this and in part because today we know that doctors are at a heavily massively elevated risk particularly opiate addiction. Right same thing with nurses straight. Yeah doctors pharmacists nurses. I've talked to. I've talked to the nurse with a drug addiction who was like pinching. Opiates and ship for quite a long while. And it's it's it's hard to avoid especially given the trauma that you encounter is a healthcare worker. Why wouldn't you want to be high on fucking oxy all the time right it. That good behavior if people's lives are in your hand but it's i can empathize leads dole. Et yeah especially since. I don't know none of us are we. We've all decided not to not to do. The pandemic mitigation thing anymore. So i don't go f- marty access. Then jeff bezos scenario zona. Yeah yeah take some oxy. i'm not gonna. I'm not going to yell at you right now do yet. Cocaine was also a drug with german origin. It was synthesized. I from coca leaves by german chemists and popularized by viennese psychiatrist named doctor sigmund freud and a viennese eye doctor named carl colder freud prescribe cocaine as part of his talk therapy sessions and dr kohler just poured it right into people's is a local anesthetic which imagine going to the doctor cocaine and your is capable open this shit strongest my therapist kathy shutout if before i was about to talk to her about stalking people and social media and how is affecting my mental health. She poured some cocaine into my. I can't say how that would affect our sessions. I think they'd be redder. I think they'd be. They'd go by really quick great. We'd go by very quickly. Yeah and i would need a gallon of water to help my dry mouth yet. As far as i am aware. Cocaine is a drug without downsides. So i don't see why people shouldn't shouldn't take a shit load of it. It's good for your thought yours freer it. I've heard it has the ability to reduce nasal problems. Cleans you out for the next two days. Yeah yeah for legal reasons now. Continue you know what it is time for an ad break in behind. The bastards is sponsored by the global cocaine behind the bastards. If you like podcasts. You'll love cocaine. Listen to the new season of doctor. Death on amazon music dr death season three miracle man is the terrifying true story of dr pallo. Mekki riney a charming surgeon who left a trail of bodies behind him and his love affair with an nbc news producer. Benita alexander who was completely swept up by his charm right from the beginning. Bonito's relationship with dr macaroni felt like something ripped from the pages of a romance novel. They traveled the world on the back of his motorcycle and it wasn't long before he proposed to her with a promise that the pope himself would marry them which she did it. No then was that this part of their love story. The pope is the efficient would be the detail that unraveled it all and would take her to the center of an international medical scandal. That would shock the world. dr pallo. Macaroni had lied about everything and six people would die before benita would realize he wasn't the miracle man she thought he was. Dr death season three is the summer scandal. That you've been waiting for amazon. Music has new episodes two weeks before everyone else listened to dr death season three early on amazon music. Download the amazon music app. Now robert evans here world trying to save money these days and one big line item on. Everybody's budget is mobile service. So when i first started looking into mid mobile and saw that they were offering premium wireless service starting at just fifteen bucks a month. I thought there's gotta be a catch but after looking into it made sense. Meant mobile is the first company to sell wireless service online. 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We'll take you from the tennis courts competent to the world's grand slams on this new season of the goat and talked to the players that followed serena williams journey the coaches that helped mold her indomitable spirit and the celebrities and family that cheered and cried from the sidelines. The amount of work that he takes the tennis sport but indigent in the physio in the recovery injuries. It's unbelievable what she's competing. His player scored ten twenty. You're younger the goats arena is available now listening. Follow on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We're back and we're celebrating. The cocaine industry are not an industry with no problems. Not war Yeah one side of the story. Exactly people talk a lot about all the deaths. All the murders. All the violent violence all the death squads funded by cocaine exports. People will never talk about the humble movie producers railing cocaine off of the back of each other's iphones in the bathroom. Yeah martin store sese ever heard of these right another person. He never did anything problematic cocaine. Thank you robert now. We were just talking about. How dr sigmund freud. Dr colour carl colour. We're heavily responsible with popularizing cocaine in germany and both guys are jewish. This is relevant because cocaine takes off as the nazis are rising to and then getting into power. And so the nazis condemn cocaine a jewish drug corrupting pure area in bodies right. They are not fans cocaine and this is why they can't really come after. Opiates right and they don't they have these kind of the kind of approach it as a public health problem but they can't condemn opiate users because most of a lot of opiate users are soldiers. And there's a you have to like worship veterans in this period of time. Especially if you're the nazis but cocaine that's the drug that the artists and the queer people and the and the fucking psychiatrists doing you. Can you can demonize cocaine. You know and they do so. Berlin decadence was a major topic of complaints for the nazis. In the city was a high of of all things rad. there were illegal dance. Parties not dissimilar to raves. There were infamous clubs like the bow house resi which was kind of like the studio fifty four of its time. It was a plebeian. Fuck and do lots of cocaine. Since prostitution and drug use was more or less legal in berlin tourists from the united states would often travel there to fuck and snort. Themselves silly in blitzed older sites the lyrics if it contemporary song to set the mood of the time. And i don't know what the tune of this song was. But it's a good song once not so very long ago sweet alcohol that beast brought warmth and sweetness to our lives but then the price increased and so cocaine and morphine berliners now select let lightning flashes rage outside we snort and we inject at dinner in the restaurant the waiter brings the tin of coke for us to feast upon forget whiskey and gin let drowsy morphine take it subcutaneous effect upon our nervous system we snort and we inject these medications aren't allowed of course they're quite forbidden but even such listed treats are very seldom hidden euphoria awaits us in though as we suspect our foes can't wait to shoot us down we snort and we inject and if we snort ourselves to death or into the asylum our days are going downhill fast how better to beguile them europe's a'madhouse anyway no need for afflicting the only way to paradise is snorting injecting. That's a very fun. And the way you read it and made it sound like you're reading children's book book it makes. This is happening. As the first kind of anti-drug laws are being pushed through again. They're not. They're not nearly as strict as anything. We we live with today in the united states. But there the first. And the nazis are they're complaining about druggies but they're also complaining about degeneracy about artists about about people who are in their those people the kind of artistic intellectual can see what's coming and they also can't stop it because they didn't and that's what the songs bet like. Well we're about to get all murdered by the nazis. Might as well take some heroin with. Yeah the prices increasing out cutting it anymore fucked up until the nazis take total power hard to blot out. What's happening. yeah yeah now. I will say somewhat ironically olers fullness of focus on berlin drug culture the fact that he was on that so much kind of focusing on the rest of germany seems to have been heavily influenced by nazi propaganda. In a way that i think does make his overall work a little less accurate. He writes quote anyone who could afford it to cocaine the ultimate weapon for intensifying. The moment coke spread like wildfire and symbolized the extravagance the age on the other hand it was viewed as degenerate poison in disapproved of by both communists and nazis. We're fighting for power in the streets. There was violent. Opposition to the free and easy zeitgeist german nationalists railed against moral decay. Similar attacks were heard from the conservatives though berlin's new status as a cultural metropolis was accepted with pride the bourgeoisie which was losing status in the nineteen twenties showed it's insecurity through its radical condemnation of mass pleasure. Culture decry is decadent now. His job does a fine. He's worked as a find job of getting across the popular german opinion. Kind of or at least right wing. Opinion saw berlin and the decadence of its artistic set. But it's also not historically accurate in absolute terms and they make that point. I want to quit from a paper. Called the drug policy of the third reich from the journal social history of alcohol and drugs criminal commissar ernst engelbrecht of berlin claimed in one thousand nine hundred four cocaine became most popular amongst female and male homosexuals to him. Cocaine was not a problem to turned into an epidemic yet. According to contemporary estimates the city of karlsruhe rain rain supreme is the center for cocaine consumption with one point. Four four grams per thousand people while berlin remains second with a consumption rate of one gram thousand people which is not particularly high nineteen twenty four mark the first germany and so again. There is coca there. Is this kind of very popular in the nazis. Lot of hey of it. But in absolute terms berlin isn't consuming a particularly large amount of cocaine. And again i think this is an area where the fact that the nazis harped on it. So much has older focusing on kind of the decadence berlin in a way that that is kind of falling for their trap because it was not berlin itself was not nearly as decadent or drug addled as the propaganda made it seen based on the numbers that we actually have. But don't be a problem was it. Sounds like it peaked around. I think Twenty two twenty three. It starts to decline it. That's kind of the whole point. Is that germany. Especially compared to the united states does not have a particularly big drug problem or a drug culture. It's again very prominent because a lot of famous people are involved in like the set in berlin. That is doing a lot of this but that is kind of like a subculture in berlin. It's not the city. And it's not might mainstream germany and the fact that the nazis kind of blow it up into being berlin. The sin the home of it's kind of like what happens with portland where like the city of portland's being burnt down every week because the right wing sees a kid break a starbucks window. That's kind of that's how well no i. I didn't break shit. But that's kind of how this kind of how drug use and berlin gets painted a lot of people still see it in history. Just because the nazis made so much. Hey over the decadence of the city when the reality is the vast majority of people in berlin if they ever did indulge weren't doing all that much buzzwords free. Yeah yeah now. Nine thousand nine hundred twenty four marked the first major german anti-drug law which banned the sale of powder cocaine from pharmacies. So didn't make it a league. You could still get cocaine pretty much legally. You just couldn't buy powdered coke from the pharmacy and cocaine. Consumption is estimated to peaked in nineteen twenty seven and fallen afterwards. So this is definitely areola. Engages in some counterfactual pros for the sake of making his book. More interesting but that said his writing does give a decent idea of how the nazis express their rhetoric around drugs quote. Jews and drugs merged into a single toxic epidemiological unit. That minister germany for decades. Our people have been told by marxist. Jews your belongs to you. That was taken to mean that social occasions between men or between men and women any quantities of alcohol could be enjoyed even at the cost of the bodies health irreconcilable with his jewish marxist. View that you tonic. German idea that we are the bearers of the eternal legacy of our ancestors and that accordingly our body belongs to the clan and the people as helps to fear criminal commissar irwin cozumel who was from nine hundred and forty-one director of the reich central office for combating drug transgressions asserted that jews play a supreme part in the international drug betrayed. His work was concerned with eliminating international criminals who often have roots in jewelry. The nazi party's office of racial policy. Claimed that the jewish character was essentially drug-dependent the intellectual urban you preferred cocaine or morphine to calm. His constantly excited nerves and give himself a feeling of peace an insecurity. Jewish doctors were rumored to be often. Extraordinarily addicted to morphine. But he rather older rather conveniently ignores the fact that again focusing on this and those are all things that nazi said they definitely again harped on jewish drug use the scourge of drug addiction. And how it's jewish has jewish origins but immediately before the nazi seizure power the reich health minister what wrote quote to the knowledge of the reich. Health office there is no illicit drug trade in berlin in a considerable amount as to pose a danger to the public. The circumstances in this respect changed completely in recent years. And this is nine hundred thirty one. So after twenty-seven drug use kind of all kinds declines rapidly and so by the point. The nazis are in power. There's really not much of a drug problem and as a result there's really not much of a drug crackdown and this is older. Main sin in his book. As i said he wants to draw a direct line between the modern war on drugs in the nazi war on drugs and so he notes that when the central while the central drug law the third reich was a holdover from weimar germany. There were new drug regulations. Put in place. When the nazis took power to further nazi ideas of racial hygiene. He claims that drug consult suction was heavily penalized starting in nineteen thirty three with prison time and appears to be making the claim that drug users and nazi germany where penalized thrown into concentration camps like other political prisoners and racial minorities. This is actual scholar who studied senior. You can find yeah. Most of it was not and even so we'll talk about like consumption wasn't really criminalized and there was no point. We're drug users gone after an input in concentration camps in an organized way. And i want to quote from that. That paper by jonathan levy again quote drug use was never a crime in germany thus habitual drug users or drug addict. We're not criminals. Therefore they were not considered habitual criminals and could not be sent to a concentration camp so this is again if we're if we're in terms of creeped critiquing older. This is a big trump at the early part of his book. And it is you know. There's two parts of this book. There's the part of it. We're doing original research into hitler's drug use and hitler's doctor. And there's a part of it where he's kind of synthesizing a bunch of other historic reports on the nazis in drugs. That part that in my opinion he screws up the most. So it's anyway a that's a little bit of a rant on this book but i think it's important to kind of get this this sort of stuff right and when you are important to get the levy is clear that he cannot find in levies. A guy from studies specifically third policies on drum policies. His conclusion is that. There's no evidence that again in. The nazis talked a lot about about racial hygiene about how drug use racial problem. But there's no evidence. According to levy that the nazi drug policy was impacted by their ideas on racial hygiene so politicians and people were saying one thing but in terms of like what the actual legal changes worth it. There's not evidence of that. I have to think leaving those shit on this better than older does so making drug consumption crime was really are thing. Oh yeah we do the hell out of that jimmy. The germans do now. But yeah and part again part of why the nazis really didn't want to go after drug users is because a lot of them were veterans from herman. Gehring was a drug addicted veteran in the trench generation were idolized. there were nearly worshipped by the nazis. If you'd focused on junkies and demonizing them like that would have been bad politics. It's also worth noting that the german penal code established during the kaiser's reich was actually we would consider it wildly progressive on issues of drug addiction compared to the united states. And i'm gonna quote from levy here addicts. Were not responsible for their actions while under the influence of drugs and should receive treatment instead of jail. Sentence judges often agreed with this position. But we're unable to force treatment and were known to set free criminals unfit to stand trial. The protection of drunken and intoxicated criminals existed in the german penal code since its inception and obviously. That's not a perfect way to do things either being like well you you raped in somebody you beat the shit but you were drugs. Get outta hair bag of high sativa. Yeah but it is. There is there is also an element of that. That's good which like well. Yeah it drug addiction should be treated as a health problem rather than a criminal problem. Yeah biden for progressive standing of their smoked enough crack to move the us forward on drug policy. Really doing a service. And i mean that actually sincerely you know who else is doing. Our country service carolina brand brand seen a low loa cartel producers twin. this exact. no no. We're we are piercing. Lower these days so curl up with a big fat bag cocaine and listen to a podcast while sweating heavily. Make pipe out of your mother's vase Make a pipe out of anything. Abc always be piping. That's my motto. John lennon was a musical genius and one of the most beloved cultural figures of the twentieth century. His songs inspired dreamers to imagine but some thought he dreamed too much others thought he was too powerful so he was followed. He was threatened q. Is declared a danger to the united states in nineteen eighty miss assassinated blood on the tracks returns with season two john. Lemons story premiering thursday august. Nineteen blood on the tracks is part true. Crime part historical fiction part spoken-word low five. Beat new are brought to you by me. Jay brennan season to blood on the tracks. The john lennon story will focus on the former beatles final decade in america. It is a tale full of paranoia. Police raids. kidnappings wiretaps lost weekends. Extortion murder. Listen to blood on the tracks on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast. The corona virus vaccines were produced in record time. 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Santos and i teach the science of wellbeing at yale university and in the new season of my podcast. The happiness lab. I'll point you all back in the right direction. I talked to eighties heartthrob roblo about the dangers of living in the past. True happiness is being present in this moment. It's not looking forward and not looking back. And nasa astronaut shares his weird prelaunch rituals to ward off anxiety. Why would you not do before. You're getting on a rocket is a kissing the blarney stone against i dunno lady gaga. Mom tells me how often small act of kindness made a big difference to her daughter. She came up this stephanie. And she said you seem like you're impede and you're not feeling well am expect if nothing at all in return. Just beautiful heartwarming story. And i'll ask if dogs really bring us happiness. So are you ready to feel happier then. Listen on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back Boy so drugs. Yeah the so far. I've mostly criticize blitzed and it does deserve some criticism. But now we're about to get into what i think. The book does very well which is provide the. I really thorough history of a fascinating figure one of the few high up nazis to be mostly ignored by historians dr theodore morale in nine hundred ninety nine psychiatrist. Fritz red lick published a book titled hitler diagnosis of destructive prophet. It was an attempt to actually answer to actually answer the question. What the fuck was going on with this medical way with as much scientific rigor yes along with that guy and as much of a scientific ways you could for a patient who's been dead for decades. He used written and oral statements by hitler and his close associates to try and put together a picture of the fewers health. Read looks book. Relied heavily upon dr theodor. Morell risk morales records. And i'm going to quote from the psychiatric times here before the outbreak of war. Nine hundred thirty. Nine hitler's complaints included insomnia eggs in gi discomfort. His health is known to have declined considerably. Starting in nineteen forty one ready excited a host of elements including tonight severe headaches dizziness impaired vision abdominal spasms impairments and mobility and during the final year of the war john laryngitis runny nose more bouts of gi spasms tremor of his hands and conspicuous difficulties in locomotion evidence of parkinson's disease in nineteen forty-five has symptoms and trimmers worsened. Eventually leaving him unable to move around completely on his own intriguing. These symptoms over the years morell prescribed for hitler a cocktail of medications that included. Opiates morphine. oxycodone barbituates cocaine. Amphetamines bromides in the end. Red lick drew a conclusion that has been repeatedly repeated frequently ever since. Hitler abused amphetamines particularly between nineteen thirty nine and nineteen forty three and was temporarily impaired by such abuse and this was probably the most hitler a diagnosis rally. The most popular in thorough look morale. There's drug use prior to olders work and lake owners work. Read looks book was heavily criticised. Experts noted that many of his sources were unreliable because again. A lot of this is based on a personal recollections of nazis who survived the war. Who are fundamentally untrustworthy. People and yeah and even more than that. They criticize red light. The fact that his emphasis on the fierce drug abuse came close to excusing. Hitler's crimes would you obviously never wanna do. And the same criticism has made a blitz. We'll see how we feel about that at the end of this but right now i think it's time to get into the meat of work. Which is his portrait of dr morelle and the relationship. Hitler had with his primary physician. Here's how older introduces morale quote. The word jew was smeared on the plaque of a doctor. Surgery on bay. Strada in berlin charlottenburg district one night in one thousand nine thirty three. The name of the doctor a specialist in dermatological in sexually transmitted diseases illegible. Only the opening hours could still be seen clearly. Weekdays eleven to one and five to seven apart from saturday afternoon. The overweight bald dr theodore morale reacted to the attack. In a way that was typical. That was his typical as it was wretched. He quickly joined the nazi party to defuse further hostilities of that kind morrell was not a jew. The had wrongly suspected him of being one because of his dark complexion after he had registered as a party member burrell's practice became even more successful. It expanded and moved into the lavish rooms of nineteenth century building. On the corner of your first dom anthocyanins stresa now. Morell was not at all unique in joining the nazi party to avoid getting getting accused of being jewish. Yeah very common again. Not just for that reason. He was one of hundreds of thousands of german professionals. Who are what you would call apolitical nazis. If the nazi party had never come around they probably never would done anything bad. They would have done whatever their fucking job is right. But because being the best way to further their career or just make life easier was to join the nazi party. They joined the nazi party in this played some role in the holocaust. And yeah uh so as you might expect. Morell was not a great doctor again. Std's we're kind of his primary area of expertise but the thing that he really loved to focus on was the very new field of vitamins now in the early nineteen hundreds and we figured out that vitamins were things that you would die without them but we did not know a whole lot more than that right. Vitamin still pretty new concept. That there's like there's these things that if you don't get enough of them you your body stops working yeah So there was an idea and we start to realize like oh shit vitamin c potassium. You can have you can feel immediate effects when you take some of this stuff like b twelve right and you can if you've ever if you especially if you're dealing with get efficiency it's it's fucking quick. And so that. That convinces a lot of people that like you can have. Some of these can have such an immediate effect. People vitamin deficient. Maybe taking shitloads. Vitamins will make you superhuman right. Like just inject huge doses of them. And you'll be you know. It's joe rogan esque stuff right like it's the reminds me of being thirteen and eat a bunch of us. It's yeah let's see what happens. Yeah exactly and like eating a bunch of nutmeg taking shitloads vitamins is a mixed bag. Make you poop. A tremendous amount shallots vitamin c. vitamin c. So obviously vitamin injections can be powerful medicine. Save people's lives in certain circumstances right incredible potential for malnourished people and for people with certain disorders and also like there are certain vitamin. Ask if you're hung over and shit you'll be like oh fuck i feel like i feel like a king right now now. The early nineteen hundreds was a time live. So there is vitamin injections. that's not like snake will necessarily. That's not something that's even necessarily bad for you. But morell marketed vitamin injections in a way. That again wouldn't have seemed out of place on like a podcast app today. He was in short a snake oil salesman and he relied on the fact that vitamins were new unsexy to help him market them as performance. Enhancers these this called vita molten which was sold in both bar form and in a shot that was basically like this powerful vitamin injection that he eventually added like a whole bunch of other stuff too. We'll talk about it again. Because vitamins don't have a huge impact on people who are already well nourished morale. It would make the decision to mix real drugs and hormones into his shots. You want him to like feel something immediately right. Put a little amphetamine in their. You know a little bit of fucking put some fucking testosterone in there. You know like he was he was doping people. it wasn't just a vitamins. It was often like steroids or amphetamines in eventually. Like a shitload like everything. He'd get caffeine a lot of the time he would shoot caffeine in kind of because again if you're this guy if someone's well nourished just most vitamin shots. They're not gonna feel anything sushi bunch caffeine in there to. They'll feel that they'll feel like something's going on. You know like oh shit. Like i'm i'm i'm powerful now a. It's a smart move. It's a smart telling someone that you are giving them vitamins. But really are giving them. A cup of coffee. Does feel like something's working. Yeah for male patients. He often shot added testosterone taxes and anabolic steroids. For female patients he would include nightshade to help with energy and because he thought it made. There is prettier. If that wasn't enough of a boost he was not above using more powerful stimulants like methamphetamine. We'll talk about meth in more detail later. But the point is morales. Only true talented physician was marketing. And the fact that he seems to have been really good at injecting people. There were folks who said you couldn't even feel him pricky with the needle. He was so good at what he did now. Today's fascists are so obsessed with traditional. Isn't that it's often forgotten that the oh jeez were futurists. Fascism was obsessed with machinery with cutting edge science ultra-modern medical science. Fascism was a modern thing. They loved cars. They loved machine guns. They loved planes. Eugenics at the time was considered hip and exciting. Science morales eugenics and stuff share a decent matter. This was morales. Vitamin shots fit in. Well with the vibe of the early nazi years by nineteen thirty six. He was one of the most prominent doctors in the right. And that's the year he got a phone call from hitler's adjutant asking him to make a house. Call for heinrich hoffmann. The fewers official photographer hoffman had contracted gonorrhea and not from his wife. Since he was a prominent nazi the regime wanted to treat him any hush-hush manner morale knew a lot about std's and was able to treat the photographer easily. The nazis were so grateful that they gave him and his wife a fancy trip to venice. As a thank you for his discretion afterwards he was invited to dine. With the hoffman and munich. Hitler showed up. And the group eight. All the nazi leaders in the group all eight. The nazi leader's favorite meal spaghetti with nutmeg tomato sauce on the side and green salad from list quote. Yeah hitler's weird eater. Hitler who had heard a great many good things about the jovial. Morale thanked him before dinner for treating old comrade and regretted not having met the doctor before perhaps than his chauffeur who had died of meningitis. A few months earlier would have still been alive. Munro reacted nervously for the compliment and barely spoke during the spaghetti. Dinner constantly. Sweating doctor with the full face. And the thick round glasses on his potatoes knew that in higher circles he was not considered socially acceptable his only chance of acceptance in his injections so we picked up his ears. When hitler in the course of the evening talked almost in passing about severe stomach and intestinal pains that had been tormenting him for years. Morell hastily mentioned an unusual treatment that might prove successful. Hitler looked at him quickly. Invited morella and his wife to further consultations at the berkoff his mountain retreat in the obersalzberg near burke disgusting there a few days later during a private conversation the dictator frankly admitted to morale that his health was no so poor that he could barely perform any action that was claimed due to the bad treatment given to him by his previous doctors who couldn't come up with anything but starving him then if there happened to be an abundant dinner on the program which was often the case immediately suffered from unspeakable bloating itchy exim on both legs so that he had to walk around with bandages around his feet and couldn't wear boots morell immediately thought he recognized the cause. There's complaints in diagnosed abnormal. Bacterial flora causing poor digestion. Now we don't know exactly what was wrong. with hitler. At this point like medically in the mid historian hendrick burl and physician hans joakim noyon attempted to diagnose the fears physical maladies and. I'm going to quote from the psychiatric times here. While the german chancellor appears to have not suffered from any major acute illnesses he was a victim of chronic diseases in barrow confirmed that hitler's longstanding ailments were gi in nature there are also signs and medical records of progressive coronary sclerosis and high blood pressure. Most prominently however newman annaborough. Confirm the diagnosis of parkinson's disease. Which really started in the early nineteen forties. So he's got excellent he's got something on his gi and gives him this. This is his main complaint. He has this horrific debilitating gas pain. His gas is so bad that like he can't. He can't function a lot of the time when he eats so. This is probably exacerbated by his vegetarian diet he probably had. Ibs as a result of his time in the trenches. You talk about people particularly who were over in like iraq and afghanistan earlier in those wars before there was as much infrastructure in the us side. Nearly all of them have some sort of ibs. It's just something you get when you're in entrenches the water's dirty and stuff. There's a number of things that are probably going on with hitler but it is. It is likely right that he had something going wrong with his bacterial. Flora you know Perhaps because of his injuries during the war or something but we now know that like the shitty fits all the bad food needs gut. Bacteria have a big impact on your health and that was starting to be understood. Then it's still kind of primitive science now comparatively and morell prescribed his leader. Something cold moody floor. This was a gut. Bacteria supplement have actually been crafted from the intestinal flora of a german soldier. Who'd been sent to the balkans during world war one and been like the only guy in his unit not to get horrible stomach issues. So that's actually a really good. Medical thing is well that guy seems like that's the shit out of his guts and like give it to other people you know and mood floor was live bacteria in capsules taken with the hope that they'd set up permanent shop in the patient's bowels. This was real medicine and its impact on hitler's. Gi track apparently powerful quick hitler experienced immediate relief although not permanent relief so i don't know exactly what was going on here. But he was so overjoyed to be cured as he felt at the time that he gave mirella house and made his personal physician but morell wasn't a gut bacteria specialists. He was a vitamin man. Hitler still had health complaints and a lot of them are probably due to permanent injuries. Caused by his service in the fact that he was just an aging man. You know in a time when medicine wasn't very good so morell was able to convince his new boss that vitamins. Where the answer. You're not tired because you're pushing fifty and you have been you know going without sleep and working like a crazy person and like you were injured and suffered permanent damage and where you're tired. Because you need these vitamin injections that are also full of caffeine. Or sometimes amphetamines. So he was basically like i. Your you can't like you need vitamins. And because vitamin pills take too long and your schedule is so demanding. I've just got to start shooting you up every time before a speech in order to like get you get you hyped up and morale starts giving hit their shots and he never stops until the very end of the war and he would put a wide variety of substances into the nazi leaders. Feigns i dine vitamins. Chalk and when hitler had a big speech a power injection which often contained glucose to give him a boost of sugar. Sugar fueled energy probably caffeine. Also a lot of the time morales immediate goal was an instant cessation of symptoms. So if you're tired he wants you to feel wired right away you know. And tha that. Anti continually experimented in tweaked the injections he was giving hitler. We don't always know what they included because sometimes roads. I gave him shot number whatever. And it's like okay. Well what the fuck was in that an older does a lot of try to diagnose it. You know a lot of times. That aren't recorded. There's probably some if not amphetamine than at least caffeine in these things. We don't always know we do know that. In nineteen thirty seven the nazi leader lost his voice before a big speech and miro gave him an injection of something that is said to have cured him immediately. Like who knows what the fuck was shooting into the guy the tell hitler to lip sync. Yeah soon morell was so indispensable to the fewer that he was forced to let his medical practice triplet from lack of attention. Hitler couldn't let him be away from him right. He needed help available on. Call it all time hit. There was an all consuming patient but he rewarded. Dr morelle well. Making him a wealthy man. In nineteen thirty eight he gave his doctor and honored professorship for his part morell kept looking for new substances. To shoot into hitler's body. The nine hundred thirty six olympics had seen the advent of the use of bins adrain which is classic speed when your parents talking about speed in the seventies. That's binny's baby. Yeah you can still get it today if you get a bins of drexel inhaler. You make little allergy inhalers. You just make sure that they say benzedrine autumn you pop them open. You take the little cotton cloth out throwing a water bottle. You're good to go. Young allegedly allegedly. Yeah so yeah. Benzedrine gets big after the thirty six olympics and a german pharmaceutical company makes a note of this like well. Seems like people love speed. We should develop a better speed. And the chemical they've picked to make an even better speed was a little substance you might have heard about. It was first synthesized in nineteen nineteen by japanese chemists and its name was in methylamphetamine. It's the good shit shit shit. Yeah baby math. Speaking of drugs with sides so in short order tim leary was producing methamphetamine methamphetamine. Pills as an over the counter medication under the brand named pervent and sale started in the weekend in the winter of nineteen thirty seven and the drug use was the was immediately popular among the young third reich users or and the drug was immediately popular in the third reich. Soon temblor was even selling boxes of meth spiked chocolate. They bragged that they're wonder drug was good. For quote reawakening joy in the despondent and that fragility frigidity in women can be easily influenced with pervert and tablets giving us a map and show wanna get down. You could just put that boxing. Sourly missing is math is math. When it's all legal i. I hope to be an ad man for the methamphetamine industry chemistry. Yeah yeah smile. You've you and your wife been fighting fight faster on meth. You know exactly exactly so. I'm going to continue to read from temblors ads for the treatment. Technique is simple as can be imagined for half tablets every day long before bedtime ten days a month for three months this will achieve excellent results by increasing women's libido and sexual power take meth everyday to fuck better meth time. Almost positive would not help me get laid. When i smoked pot in college. I win perpetually ruin dates by avoiding. The person i was sitting next to i literally in college smoked weed once with this guy who i was like set getting set up with. Didn't speak to him at home. College is to end the next time i saw him. I was like hey john. I'm so sorry about that was so weird I would love to see if we do this again. And he said thank you so much for apologizing. What did we do on our next date smoke. We i was like i've gotta leave again. So i and that was the end of our short-lived relationship so i i feel like if meth was added at wouldn't help the situation is what i'm saying. I mean you know. There's only one way to find out which is track that guy down and take a just rail a fuck load crystal if they put it in chocolate and i wonder little roche rose chocolates. Yeah i would like one. You know those lights this this chocolate cherries cherry in the middle of the chocolate thing with a little rock of crystal meth right in the middle. Yeah the surprise or maybe those little eggs they make. Yeah cadbury cadbury instead of like building a toy inside you. You smoke bath. Fuck lit a method cadbury eggs. That would be bad. Allegedly so methamphetamine was even useful in treating drug addicts accord again. This is according to the company selling meth advise. They advised people withdrawing from alcohol. Cocaine heroin to take a little meth to help them get over the shakes. Beth was trying to get off a heroin. Clean you up bane. Can you pronounce this thin. You're ready to take it. Oh yeah cocaine's bad stuff take this clean your right out again. The the reason i bring this up is to point out. That like meth was not a drug. In the it wasn't seen as a drug in the third reich. It was just seen as like a medicine particularly treatment for anything it was it was it was it was a helper. It was not a recreational substance. It was it was advertised. As capable of bringing quote shirkers malinga defeatists and weiner's into the nazi fold and turning them into productive obedience citizens they were saying like math will help turn you into a good nazi. You'll be able to work if you're lazy because you'll be on math one farmer co again. That's also you draw line to like why they were advertising that it makes women wanna fuck is like well. It's all about breeding right. Like meth is the drug. That makes you helps you work in a factory or get laid babies like that's why they're selling it the way they're selling it or a big part of it one felix hoffner called prescribing pervert in the new supreme commandment of his discipline in germany hussein. Like if you're a pharmacist. It's your duty to give germans meth. He called it a chemical. He said that could bring chemical order to disordered people now. We don't know win precisely morale. I gave hitler methamphetamine. The bad doctor had often gave given again like different brand names. I various injections and we'll some of his notes detailed. this wasn't always the case. It's likely that hitler started taking meth. In a couple of different forms put potentially in the late nineteen thirties. Too often complained of lack of energy and by nineteen thirty eight nineteen thirty nine perfect and was incredibly popular among german civilians. So the fact. That hitler's taking amphetamines. During this period of time was not odd. It wasn't something unique to him. It was something that made him very much normal among like the german working class in this period that said it was not something that was widely publicized hitler's reputation he was a sober man and he didn't drink which was weird like he was not a guy who drank a lot. He didn't really smoke. He had this reputation and bring indefatigable almost superhuman and this was a big part of his appeal so they didn't want to talk about the fact that he was drugged up as everybody else. Historian stephen snelders twain peters called nazi germany after nineteen thirty eight. A methamphetamine dictatorship. And when they say that they don't mean that. Hitler was a mess dictator although he was a dictator on meth. I'm going to quote from psychiatric times to get to what they're saying here rather than emphasizing the role of the suppliers however they argue that the evidence shows strong demand pressures for the drug from consumers in clinical practice. The drug was. I used to treat. Psychological inhibition inhibition and endogenous depression and to augment what was referred to as the will to get healthy pervert and quickly moved from clinical to general practice. It was prescribed fairly commonly for employees workers in health. What housewives in fact a praline chocolate with fourteen milligrams of permanent was marketed to the general public. So it's a dictatorship yes. Everyone is on meth there on. Let's deal with their depression anxiety. The fact that it's a bummer. Living in nazi germany. They're on meth to deal with the fact that they have to work. Schedule's like the production. They're trying to do to go. Lights meth is in a way the dictator to go on dates to make enough babies twice. And this is one of those things where i don't think really guilty this but i think that people kind of interpreting his work have made way too. Much of hitler's amphetamine use and in rather than put it in the context of like no no all of the nazis were on a fuck load of speed and that is relevant and it impacted their behavior. It impacted history and significant way. But it's not that like hitler was on method and may crazy decisions it was. The third reich was in the late thirties and early forties very methamphetamine dependent. And that's kind of important to note. Now it's tempting to speculate. As to which of hitler's temper tantrums enrages were influenced by matthews. I'm going to avoid that temptation. It is impossible to know and while meth certainly had an impact on his behavior. That impact was more to exacerbate the kind of rages. He always engaged in. Hitler even used morale to dose another head of state check. President emile hasha during a crucial moment in march of nineteen thirty nine. Hitler was trying negotiate over the annexation of czechoslovakia it was crucial that the smaller country just sort of hand themselves over without fighting because germany actually couldn't have sex successfully invaded czechoslovakia. They were kind of bluffing here. Hasha was ill when he attended a state visit to the reich. Chancellery where hitler demanded. He ordered the surrender of czech troops. Hutches suffered a heart attack which rendered him unable to function. And i'm going to quit from blitzed here next. Hitler urgently summoned morale who hurried along with his case in his syringes and injected the unconscious foreign guest with such a stimulating medication. That hasha rose again within seconds as if from the dead. He signed the piece of paper that sealed the temporary his state the very next morning. Hitler invaded prague. Without a fight during the following years hodges sat the powerless head of the protectorate of bahia and maria to which parts of this country had been reduced remaining morales loyal patient in that respect. Pharmacology worked as a way of continuing politics by other means. This reminds of a girl in new york who wants went down a k. Hole and everyone was worried that she was going unconscious until carlier jemson song. Call me maybe came on and then she shot up back from the dead. Hey that song is morally identical the dosing someone with methamphetamine. And i've always said that now. The annexation of austria and czechoslovakia was pretty much. Went off perfectly for hitler but his next goal the conquest of poland was going to require actual you know war stuff the fewer and his general staff all head clear terrible memories of the first war and they wanted more than anything to avoid a repeat of the bloody stalemates of the western front. The german warmest sheen developed several solutions to this problem. One of the major reasons that allowed them to kind of that that was crucial behind. Blitzkrieg was small unit stormtrooper tactics that had started being developed near the end of the first world war. The term the germans used this was truckstop. D.c and it was it was heavily. We'll talk about this a bit more later but it was heavily based around allowing unit autonomy. There's this like myth that the the nazi soldiers were these automatons who followed orders unquestioningly. The reason why the blitzkrieg worked that individual small unit leaders were given a degree of personal discretion and choice and power to make decisions in the field that no other military in the world gave them at this point and that's a big part of why they were successful they were also the blitzkrieg also crucially relied on the fact that the germans had built up a significant amount of armored cars tanks and close air support craft to enable a speedier sort of mechanized warfare and as all of this developed an idea developed championed by men like general heinz guderian that this new jewish german army might be able to move quickly enough to avoid the static fortifications that bogged down in one thousand nine fourteen but technology and tactics only went so far. Poland was huge in war with poland mint war with france in order to have a hope of sweeping through either country. German soldiers were going to need chemical assistance and president was just what the doctor general ordered from a write up. In time magazine. Quote dr f rank director of the research institute of defense physiology had high hopes that pervert would prove advantageous on the battlefield. His goal was to defeat the enemy with chemically enhanced. Soldiers soldiers who could give germany and military edge by fighting harder and longer than their opponents after testing the drug on a group of medical officers rock believed that perfect would be an excellent substance rousing. weary squad. We may grasp what far-reaching military significance. It would have if we manage to remove the natural tiredness using medical methods. Ram himself was a daily user as detailed in his wartime medical. Diary and letters quote with pervert and you could go on working for thirty six to fifty hours without feeling any noticeable fatigue. This allowed rock to work days at a time with no sleep in his correspondence indicated. It is it is an ad for for again. Mary sponsor of the show methamphetamine under a bridge near you and then You can cook it in your bathtub if you really want or your. You know wherever so sad. It's safe. yeah it's good stuff. Yeah so we're going to talk more about all of this in part to but that's gonna do it for us and part lawn carolina. How are you feeling. Has this changed your mind on methanol. Okay i'm really starting to look at my dating history. And i'm realizing a missing puzzle. Piece methamphetamine Phetamine and maybe just like the super vitamin shot of talk jock low. You can't get enough glucose and buy whatever human growth hormone. Whatever else he was throwing in there. I think it's fair to say a lot of us have been looking for love and all the wrong places and maybe the right place is crystal meth. Exactly valentine's happy valentine's day when you're on meth everyday's valentine's day. That's the beauty of men of true. That's so true so true carolina. Do you have anything other than methamphetamine. You wanna plug. I would love to plug my show. True romance where we discuss dating horrors and recovering from anything from episode of the bachelorette to a terrible. I date to a truly devastating break-up where here for you every thursday there's new episode on iheartradio apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast and on our next episode. I will be going on a blind date. Yeah literally and all our next episodes. I think we'll be on mass to so if he can get a line item in the budget for just like a shitload fine so on this question well but off the record off the record. We're absolutely going to do some math. Excellent all right. Good news everybody. Well this has been behind the bastards. Methamphetamine is actually based addition. Listen it could happen here. 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Episode 303d: Wimbledon's Second Week, With Tumaini Carayol

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44:00 min | 3 months ago

Episode 303d: Wimbledon's Second Week, With Tumaini Carayol

"The challenges are meeting on night. Eleven wimbledon from wimbledon. I'm ben rothenberg. Joined by ncr's spain and sub saharan african correspondent it's to monte carrio of the guardian. Thanks for being on hair again whereas having is my job. You are the correspondence to keep up after all. You're doing that valiantly so we appreciate that as always. We have not done a show since middle sunday when cornyn did a show a united show mid last week but was want to catch up on basically all the fourth round quarterfinals finals and set up for the final. So some heavy lifting here for us to radically. But we'll talk and relatively broad strokes. I think probably makes sense to survive for kate. The men and women. Do you wanna start with the men and the women men okay. Sure let's start. Men men play today. The men's final was set up today Which after matteo bertini one in four sets over uber or catch and in the next match between straits tough straights straits over dennis shop. Of all off this sets up a match between bertini and jovic. I don't think it's a surprising. Final people pick bertini to make the final when the draw came out after his run at queens although which is kind of weird in respect it wasn't a great tweens tournament but for some reason that was a real a real beatification of his chances and and he's is backed up and he's looked really good. I was impressed with matt during this this whole week and especially today i think actually this is probably his best match so far from me to go back to you know people rating of before the tournament of the so many young players just on comfortable on grosso haven't played the best dennison. He has shown that you know from like from the second season on gross now he was he played well it and so essentially kind of. It's not surprised at all that he's in the final vote it would happen. I'm surprised i thought would happen. Actually happened if you go mainly normally something goes. Hey unless it's involving the big three. Yes some you know. Something goes wrong. But it's kind of lived up to it which gordon yeah. I was actually talking with his one his new. Pr guy. richard evans. He's atp. You'll know who. I ran into him and pete holtman. During the first week. I was on my way to watch ostapenko versus kazakhstan. Aso's a second round day. I guess and their third round day. I can't remember what trump that was. It was and i was talking about thirteen. I said yeah looked with bertini straw. it doesn't make the final. It's a catastrophe and apparently they found that very memorable. I said that and so. They apparently pietton. Richard were texting each other each day. Saying you know when other win like one step. Closer to avoiding catastrophe and today is essentially. What a catastrophe. So it's interesting with with framing it for these guys with both bertini shop of all because both of them were really talking meaningfully and believing it feeling that they can win this tournament. They were like they're ready to make deep run tier to do well to be like ready to contend and by the way both of them are talking about it strikes me as different from. We usually hear from the big guys but that causes his justified. More or less. With the exception of the existence of novak djokovic persisting i think which goes into the final as a big favorite dance bertini but bertini. I think has plausibly as good chances anybody of beating him. Also so i don't know is the guys getting closer or not meaningfully to winning to actually hold on a grand slam trophy. I mean i mean honestly the to be honest of the biggest differences. The older guys. That rougher isn't here. I mean obviously he'd been his form away from clay i'd been waning. You know clearly federer's forty next month. So i think that's the biggest change over. I mean these parents also improved a lot shovel of show us improve. Play some amazing tennis. You know especially in the second week against these and now will i mean too less accent against marian and then bertie news like improving constantly. So i think it's a mixed up. I don't think. I don't think they've gone become going. Meaningfully closer justin center like them opportunities. And i think the reason why that speaking gnaws because they're speaking like opening up. I wanted to win the tournament. Because i mean it would be kind terrible if they weren't you know this isn't you know isn't kind of the clear like barrier of the big three of having to beat two of them you know while people aren't you right like back in like david fromm never talk about winning a slam and he was in a final. I don't think ever thought was within reach. You know like and there is a meaningful difference in this attitudes generations. A bit you're right at the bar is lower. When really it's only meaningfully. Jovic but djokovic is still quite a bar. I mean his his only only said he's lost jack draper for it was the first when he was on a fallen all over the place and then he got that together. Okay you know. Like i joke. Which is such an incredible manager of tournaments. Like he's so good at at doing what he needs to do. He's so economical about his tennis about this energy. Most of the time. Obviously there some occasional blow ups but like for the most part. He's so good at peaking when it matters being right when it matters like yeah he spent most of the first set against have evolved down a break and then he when he needed to he broke back. Got the set you know like and then you see like twenty thousand final here against federal like he loses you say. He doesn't win nearly twenty points in the mashed fourteen zero point something like that in total in the match a big number but he like never made an error in any tie-break like that's that's just like makes him so so calculating and so good and so like tough to to be Pulling all the strings out there awhile times. I'm speaking stay in the air but to me it's the most clutch player in israel coming out and you know like for example today against Chipotle of as you said like for the most of the Of was ming he won fifteen consecutive service wentz and most of them were just like service winners. Took which was reading or even like some like. We're just not place. Well joke which was in couldn't get racket when there was and then suddenly i four five you just made like two incredible guns at the beginning of the game and then he just focuses on he just has that crazy ability to when if the moment is when he needs to. And that's not everyone can do. Not everyone person who couldn't win. Points much roger federer down the stretch of his quarterfinal loss to heuberger catch. This was not necessarily shocking shocking. That federal could lose to her catchers. Obviously a good player miami champion but the way in which he lost was sort of like. Wow because the end of the second half of this match went real fast. Second third second because the second tie-break right so like it was three six and no like that third was very possibly the worst set of roger federer's career and it went just like so quickly like he was obviously catch. Played pretty well but like it. Which is going so fast. And you would think there'd be some sort of like i don't know second wind or something you get when like when you when there's all this thought in everyone's mind honestly this year last wimbledon when you're roger federer to go out like that i'm not saying they said like diminishes his legacy on any level but like it was kind of a sudd- of exit for him here. What had otherwise been a pretty good tournament for him you know but like that was. That was weird to watch. The crowd was like it was kind of the same thing for her cash. A little bit against bertini because catch wasn't winning games at all in the middle of that match and the the crowd just had this sort of like pleading. Please win a game. Like type clapping. It does here. And they didn't get with federer and they eventually got it with with her catch actually pulled him back into that matching won the third. Set a shaggy places back on. If you can hear that it's cleaning up court one where we are here. But what do you make fetters exit here. Just kind of funny. How the music. It's funny it was just crazy. How you know four four two sets. He was actually five fighting. You know he was fighting heart and you could tell you know. He struggled badly with its four hundred timing. It was really windy day and took richard after that the conditions with some of the windiest space and he will start. He couldn't like they go to a point where he can before by. It was crazy to see in the tie-break when obviously he was trying to fight back in he slept. And then that just you know he. So he slept on. He said i think he was down to three separate. A good point came to net at an easy volley than stepped on that. Just you know that was my sofa and then yes and then by by the end it was just. That wasn't much with. It just seemed to get you know you're waiting for him to find some rhythm. When it's four hundred holds up you know once but it just seemed it just tougher and tougher. I wonder how much of that was him knowing that he would have to come back from two sets down and best from that level. And he's like i. I'm an old man. I can't do this anymore. That's like you know you can think the same way match management for these guys. Whether it's like murray murray from two sets down seeking women and matches probably not married when five center in zoster oughta the first week. But you know. I think these guys have sort of have to have to be realistic. A little bit and federal actually had a great five-set record in recent years period. Even before this most recent comeback. I don't know. I just thought it was a weird way to go out. He says he doesn't know who back or not. Obviously still sort of playing it by ear. He says at least out loud. We don't know who can play the olympics yet. That's not confirmed although we do now me no bands at the olympics in the stadium which is going to be dissuading for a lot of players including fetter and jovovich. Who still on. The list wouldn't talk about olympics later date that's going on here but like the have. Yeah i don't know. Do you think this was the last time we saw roger wimbledon. Maybe not. I mean i don't he doesn't also but i do think it's gonna 'cause i mean i genuinely believe in when he says he doesn't know by. I think it's just i do. I'm actually interested in fascinated by this kind of period of federal career. Where i mean thinking about the hallo when he was kind of so so kind of kind of checked out mentally and then after the i mean we talked about this in the loss of. Just how upset. He wasn't how i think he naturally. He's what to federal he. Probably even after ninety. Probably envision kind of that. This wouldn't you know he hoped that you know this wouldn't happen to send you know. Losing an co final is a you know if you think about it. It's it's a good result on and he. He played some great tennis to get. Even you know to get to this round for nine years old. It's an achievement. But it's similar with. Mari like you make these stripes than than a wool so civilian just takes the window. What's weird about the federal wallows. The federal wall seems mental. Like it's the brain going before the body at this moment for federer in the felix sauce in certain and then again here like just not being able to pull himself morale this anyway so signed a washer federal i definitely don in his last match period. I am very confident that he wants to play the us open. So we'll keep on keeping on. Maybe we'll take a wild card into washington with his buddy rafael doll. You never know. I think ultimately i think it would depend on. I mean. obviously he's talked about how. How mega and his family feel about travelling. Also just how he feels on the cool and whether he is able to whether this comeback isn't just going to be as difficult as this so or if he's going to reach a point where he plays to a level that he's even if he isn't winning back if he loses to hook ashes and four typeset five cents. I dunno not almost just one more thing on that kind of shook me that he only been bagel once in the twentieth century to tune it out of the friendship. Like that's i would've assumed that like occasionally one run the other right. Yeah yeah that's obviously right. But like i remember the cincinnati final where he bagel jovovich. Nothing surprising you remember match. And then he wanted. It was six and there was a sabre in there that was flemish. Yeah so Federer and other thoughts on things that happened in the second week. Oh we should mention the fifth south casanova glow. Oh my gosh yes. Could karen shine off against the fashion korda. This fifth set was like nothing. I've ever seen sorry. It's like many things. I've seen many times in women's tennis. Honestly where just hold serve me nothing but to see this in a match between two guys who are six or five and six foot six respectively on grass big-serving guys who are also not returning like amazing like this. This was wild. It was ten eight in the fifth ultimately after thirteen breaks of serve. Many many breaks of serve in a row hatch failed survey. I believe three times in a row and and he admitted afterwards it was nerves. It's funny because i think is inexperience. He was returning really well that and then like no. We were just terribly nervous. They had very different. Takes on it. i'm happy to say was pretty upbeat about it. It was not taking it too hard and he shouldn't use his first time playing this tournament for men's into the fourth round which is great and could one that much probably wouldn't have much of a shot ship off the next round but yeah he. He had himself a really nice term. Beat dan evans soundly now. But that was that was a wild scene. Where you think is you're watching. That was confused bonus. The and i was just i mean i mean i get like casanova in particular would say that it was because he was you know. That's that was his should of closed out. He was the one in the ascendancy. Couldn't couldn't finish could move and as of crazy and also within the the mattress off. That would barely any breaks. Those like they're only six breaks total for the first four thirteen breaks in the fence. Just that in itself of never seen anything like and yet another another mental would be just just quickly felix just hit an astronomy be it ended. I dunno if given. He's wc so many finals in los that good tournaments in this book those they were kind of like. If you know you know for obvious reasons but it was nice to see him tournament end on a good note to end with bertini generally did end positively. You're right yeah. That was a good one for like seeing him. Not big closer on torah level for so long i was not about confidence match against zverev. Sarah wasn't amazing that much either. Not a great match honestly like level wise but goodwin for field so hopefully inspire confidence or him down the road because like i think that like he needs like a little bit more just sorta like swagger sounds lazy but like it doesn't always seem like his. His belief is totally there. I think he has like a lot of like gifts. Obviously in his game physically and and technique wise and everything and he's very solid player. I feel like he's missing an edge. You know you're. I agree about social also. I don't wanna see him. I mean whether it's with tonio north just to see his game like develop more which tony robinson. happy wrong. i might be wrong by heard me. He wasn't just like to see his game kind of developed more and just become more well. Rounded. 'cause i think that that's you know when he was younger. That's what everyone saw it. They thought he would develop into other know someone who who's defense with as important as his attack whereas is his his more one dimensional than it's one of those things where being well rounded can at some points that will be nothing special you know like i think it's kind of could be a little bit good to have i don't for me like more of a clear plan in your game and i don't know that he has bertini. Thirteen clearly has things he does out there like. It's a very specific way of playing winning matches prepared. And i don't know if i can describe felix attendance in the same way at this point. Maybe i'm just stupid. Always on the table solution. But i don't. I don't see it as being as like clearly imagined from his side and that's why when he's still obviously we keep saying him instead time. Is this a good result to make a make this quarter and beat sheriff onto women. You been straw. Has the final tomorrow between ashby number. One and caroline. Let's go who is eight seed ranked number thirteen which means that this will be this slam. Interro that has no matches between two top ten ranked w. players which is a wild wild stat. The wilder stat though. I feel like this woman's will and finally that i tweeted it. Also maybe you haven't this wimbledon women's final it's the first wimbledon women's final to feature to players who neither men and final before sense. See if you can figure it out talking to your thoughts as you figure it out. I'm just went the festival with two thousand gun that venus with those of us. Nice now connie remember. She be nevada beccaria forces. I would just tell you. Don't nineteen seventy seven. Nineteen seventy seven Famous wimbledon here Teacher new virginia wade beating. But he's that he's still her gas. So betty stove against a rare shot on the pod Yeah but that's crazy considering how much people that been women's tennis it like for some reason. The wimbledon finals have had some continuity. And they don't doesn't feel random at all never one bharti. Who's junior champion. We know her grass acumen longtime. That's put schiavo vote. Who is one east born. Who's one well-stocked yes got grass titles and always been growing grass mitch. Wherever reason and everyone will bring her best at this tournament. And i think she really has kind of not a lot of build up to this year for her. She made a round final. Obviously big on that final but not too lost her first two matches on grass this year. But here she's been really really good. She had a tough draw from jump. Which i think maybe helped her a bit and she started against tomorrow sedan took. You're you're shaking your head. I think this was a tough draw to dance. It could just made a grand slam semifinal just made a grandson you final then vestige whose very grass-court player. Then she played martincova. Who's not that's how the toughest draw but then she played somewhat Samson oba great win turn how hot she's been and then she zone of and then she be a goldrich who had just beat madison keys as she wanted to make sure we mentioned so and then she goes out and beats blanca in the semi's in a in a great match and yet i think plus give a is playing great. I'm a people who've listened to show. No i think hopefully that. I'm a big believer in her in her gifts and her talent and i think absolutely she's having a good enough day she can have chances against bardy. I think it's gonna be a very interesting kind of clear. Easy to imagine match right. Where applicable begin the free points on serve and hitting the clean power flat shots zimbardo trying to mix it up and i don't know which one of those will prevail on the given day but i think i have high hopes for this final hope. I hope it's good. I mean my my conduct is that it wasn't a tough roper. Anyway first week. I mean i mean i. I think it was fun. I don't i. I'm not saying it'll conduct as your unseeded players. Have to play when you're a seat if nuts off but catch with been think she was coming back. It's been a great force on grass for years anyway. Anyway the plants and she's playing well and you know she built into the semifinal without dropping a set and then like the sets against linka were kind of flawless in the first that she was actually played shipping honestly incredible for her to lose that set and then not be bothered by according to impress. Actually it was funny. You end like she had eight break points inconvenient them and then and then Got her first break point and with double-faulted much they would lead to collapse on people but like but she settled in she. She calmed down rebooted and got herself back in it in ahead quickly and yeah i was. I was impressed by her. And i did. I had an interview with her. Which was i. I talk to her in a while and then just again. It's really enjoy. Her around her bluntness in her. I like honesty. my players. A huge huge thing to as as someone who's trying to tell the truth about the sport to appreciate the people who are less filtered. Yeah on the other side should mention body semifinal course against the carpet which was to me one of the best big match. Maybe the best big match played in allow. Definitely i mean like what would even compare because the french open final against montage was a joke because russia was terrible and then the final against any simova was a complete completely completely right so then i guess you'd have some good wins and actually signed. That coordinate talked about this year during miami. The miami was actually thought her most impressive pedal for some ways because she was playing the big players. She wants to jen too. But something about miami. Obviously more traditional tournament like what you did there beating address when the final and hunting windsor blanca and s fiddle. Tonight remember semi. Maybe that was a really really solid tumor for her. And like and what's interesting about. Bharti is like ongoing this weird order. Where like it's almost. She's not islamic number one but she's like a number one who's like hasn't won big slam matches at the or over this you know. Has she ever been a top ten player to slam yet. Should be fit of at the australian open in two thousand eighteen. Be it that might be or twenty. Twenty man might be. I'm not sure like in. Obviously the rankings are wonky now and so that's been part of the stat players floating around in the top ten who at various different ways or not really deserving of having the spots in terms of power rankings. Right now but it's been great seeing bharti bharti. I feel like it's been absolutely the protagonist this women's tournament. She got put on there for her first match on the on the to say that secondary honor they give the women's champion and to give her the circuits. Halif wasn't here and then yeah and then played almost all the match on centre i believe. And she played her fourth-round out here on court one critique of a good match to yeah she's just like she's been there since he believing she's confident she's embracing the whole goolagong fifty year thing as a narrative for herself I've i've just been press her. I think either one of them would be really released. Satisfy champions for me. I love seeing players. Who are the slams number. One's getting slam eventually. I think that's like really fun. Like redemption for them because they become punch lines unfairly. I think a lot of times. I like mosiac you. When she got it will be there for applicable to hide. The best tennis is better than those yankees best tennis. Honestly and i also played really well and her one previous slam final against kerber which is three one and the third as a good final twenty sixteen. Us open so you know yeah. I'm happy with this one. So i'm looking forward to it. I am going to going to to enjoy it. I hope it might suck. You never know. But i feel i feel good about it. And yeah i feel like wimbledon delivers. These doesn't draw. Don't break your in the same way. Even when they do like in twenty eighteen you had when it was no top ten seats in the seventies. You got a cursory and a final so as such like whiplash going from a tweet about this going from for first-time semifinalists in pirates to the world number. One to former number one's in the second season now but the second seed briefly Sabah lenka made made her first semi final here as regretted making her first quarterfinal. I was really impressed by her quarterfinal playoff at. She cannot handle that occasion. Really really well not knowing how should be on that stage in that moment. What did you make seventy eight here. Having her her best finish and obviously came close. Even if i did like match with not as close. Here's a level. I thought it was the a better player in the hallway. But what do you make of this whole run here and do you think she sort of broken the duck slams especially you know choose actually those even kind of more pressure to see him in the second seat for the first time in life you know and that's probably don't need that especially when you're the number two but she she handled as he said like she played great. You know against against upper who we will was actually probably the predominance of the first week. I agree on gibberish. Fantastic she was. I mean we talked about this before this announce a softer. I really thought shipper had a shot at winning this tournament like the way she was planned because i thought when she was she had several times when she peaked. And there's a lot of players on both charts actually have had these moments where they like. Whoa nice bertini second-set today shipper and that stretch against the russa where you know people just become like unto hit the sort of like sort of blue streaks purple-patches column over here and like of never heard of lutheran going. You never have blue streak movie to purple patch. sure yet. I thought i thought jabber had that. She played great in her. Win against Sean tech in the fourth round in a really match as well. And so yeah. I thought she was set up really well to do big things for hydraulic with really talk. That's the thing. So when when when you mentioned fiscal withdrawing but it wasn't it was that that's the top tool for me playing. Yeah but plus give us an eight seat jerusalem on budgets in general just like that. Now you know that draws motto right. Yeah draws matter tons because you. Can you know if you'll bill you could have. You could play that sending tennis against some champion but have a much way. you know. it doesn't go right for you but you get you through a football talking. We're talking about about blanca. Then we got shebir then. Let's see what other matters. We haven't covered yet bharti. Oh gosh okay. So let's talk about this whole section here Bharti beats tomjanovich after tomjanovich in the round before played against amerada kanu. Are you having two different. They're saying it reduced to write a of. I'm not sure on that yet. This was a match the got a lot of attention. It's still place here on court one Late in the day the schedule was weird and bad for this match even though the women have come back the next day they put it as the last match on court one after men's match very weird choice. They're honestly going. After the long felix and match comes on plays the first alto mountain bitch type. I set close loses at six four. And then yeah and then describe what happened the rest of the way the next thirty six hours of this match basically so yes so i mean so at the end of that you could see you kind of touched us. Stomach a bit on and just wasn't entirely didn't seem one hundred percent and that more more than suddenly after some long rallies she was kind of hunched over and you saw doctors huddling in the corner and then at three loves. She called the doctor on the. You know the medical staff and then yeah about. That's when it just you know went to kind of a different direction and then you kind of like you could hear watching on tv. You could hit her breathing really heavily and the doctor was saying like i. Just keep breathing. You're okay okay. Keep on breathing. And then she went off the co and then she never came back rare off court retirement. Yeah basically i don't remember lot. I'm sure it's happened before. But i couldn't remember the last time it's happened. Where they basically said and now it's like kinda will not be coming back tire and do to. They didn't say reason came hours later. Breathing difficulty shouldn't depress do didn't hear from her that night really then next day she put out a statement and should bbc interview with with sue barker. Yeah and then it started this whole conversation again got mental health and when women santa's little bits some similar themes. I guess to the to the osaka stuff. That happened in paris. But this one i mean i. It's one of those things where like this seems like so obvious in a lot of ways and i'm not going to give the old white man who tried to get attention by saying things out of this name checks on this show certainly in general british media Whose names they're like. You know it's like docks sort of there's like yeah. This is obviously incredibly stressful. Barely played professional ten cent during the pandemic. She's young she had very little experience at all. And she gets into this cauldron abitur in the same now stadium of what like twelve thousand people roughly in in court one full one two three four five. Yeah exactly yeah. that's right. that's the capacity is one two five and and yeah and she gets overwhelmed by that and and you know freaks out a little bit and that's completely human. It's completely it's crazy doesn't happen more on some level and these individual sport when you see and then this comes from the shadow of like these different example like coca golf. Who's also in. This is the seventeen year old one year younger. They brought a con amazingly. They put it on center court every match. You like against us at this point but like kind of had a great win on this court against sec your stay in the third round but yeah like i don't know i just think it's like i think it's fine and i think that it's i understand. Why like again like soccer thing. Especially having just gone through the soccer thing i understand why like this resonates so much in the media this moment and all the different things that touches on but yeah i hope she's doing okay and i just think it was all like super human but not superhuman. You're not just. I mean i think most people who follow the sport recognize that and even for an eighteen eighteen is young but for an eighteen year old. She's even for that for. Who would get on the stage. She's completely inexperienced And and that's just really frustrating thing about honesty like follow. Even i'm sure like for fans following tennis is just the people who swooping in england some than just you know have just have to any subject on all sides in just have opinions without. I could never like just for like soup into a sport. I don't really know. And you know like on hooky and just have these like loud. You know opinions about like something. I don't know i wouldn't have that confidence. I would want to make sure that was just such a you know this is going on a different subject but tennis being you know having these permanent stars in moments but people really following on a day to day basis is just such. It's toxic. It's it's it's it's it feels like not unsustainable shoeshine shine award for it but it feels like ripe for disaster. Right in this happens like is not a new phenomenon. I think it's a growing phenomenon. But certainly like serena had this more recently dated her career like twenty eighteen years open everybody had takes about that and but almost none of them like new like the code of conduct rules basically or the the code violation rules that were sort of the the things and then that one. He gave her game penalty for for that. Like if you can get any penalty anyway you know. There's like context of stuff that like the locals. Call them that leg that they haunted in on it and loudly and you know crossley. And i don't feel like the The mcenroe comments which got some blowback. I don't feel like those were as bad from what i saw. May basically said what she said later you know like she was warmer the moment essentially you two major but then but yeah but then like obviously the piers. Morgan said his name. Sorry so regarding the macnamara comments. I think the issue was that the i mean there wasn't really necessary to start like properly speculating. After happened that to me was was issue on the. I mean it's completely random dungeon and just you know it was coherent but like to me like when i was listening you know. He was trying to like be sympathetic. You know he was trying to say that you know the reason why his giving an example and i said this is someone who you know. I have issues with the lowest coverage. Yeah but like. He's someone who was trying to give examples of you know of the people who had been in that position. It wasn't the time of the place of the moment wherever is completely different from those other people even though they Group together for people who were saying she couldn't handle the pressure and that's bad but those to me completely different things i have. I will say a little sympathy is the wrong word. But like i have some. I think it's tough being live on air having to react assigning rod. Connie when it's happening when you don't know what's happening again no information all you see is basically what would just describe to. She's breathing heavily. She's leaving the court. he's not coming back. You know like if you're a paid commentator with a microphone and they say john what do you think or whatever in this moment like you know maybe cut someone some slack there. Yeah but this is obviously not normally makmur defend show. Don't turn it into one either. I just think the. I think it's a tricky issue and again. Obviously what i said before holds hope. Emma's doing okay and come in some lower pressure environment wherever that may be and Thrive or casino in our growth experience too because obviously wimbledon. The pressure will be there in different levels. Even if not quite ramped up this high you were said actually in in an article you're quoted. I think in a near time stories coming out later. At least in the version i fouled. I that you ever saw that lake. This sort of fervor of the of the england run sort of heated up the call jenner that the national temperature of sports to more maybe boiled over overbidding radical new and gave her. Yeah more more heat to handle a you know a about oviously a robot ready to kind of just kind of funny to before this happened. The cocoa was asked about coming back to send a cool off. The twenty nineteen shows like a Remember and it just it just kind of hit home how this is just one tournament. It's one point in your life. You know the good on the so. It's not that you know even if a player About even if a plan does exhibit mental weakness by two comes read. You know mentally hundred percent you know. It's it's it's johnny nest. It's gross rent head shots at this right look. At how many shots. It took even soi staying atop player having shots to. Let's go to make another final exam right but she was in the mix the whole way and ranked where it wouldn't have been a shock. The hawaii took her finally falling. How the top ten have another week where she was able to do it. You know so yeah. She'll have plenty of chances. Are you won't have lots of more chances. And it'll it'll keep keep going that way. I dislike the losses kind of the point of tennis. No in losses are not supposed to be easy either like there's some growing that happens from them for sure. Yeah any other. Try to think of other things to talk about in the women's draw before we wrap this up kerber. Did well one question. What do you think of coq about court assignments cook. A goff played three matches in a row on center court and two of them. The third one was against curbs former champion but the other two were against players would never have come near that on their own credentials. Vezina guess former semi-finalist seen but not really cayenne. Obviously like so is that is that good is that bad is that just is what it is. Because it's it's remarkable player this player. Who's not from this country and who has never broken. The deputy top twenty is getting this country because of her age. I mean it's in general unless it's like kind of horrific Emotional some people. But like i mean it's ages also by twenty nineteen was like this kind of huge moment that seemed to resonate around the world like annette. Forget like you know the just how many people are reading articles much. I mean The lowly freedom so then how much people when need to arrive Urinary lola tommy. I'm still only now and so yeah Just like that was a huge moment and this was returned. So i get and like so one thing that just stuck with me against dublin. Speaking with someone else who was in the crowd as well and like the cry. This was a former champion angelique cub. And they were like supporting gulf As she was a Like the So it was a moment. So i think that's it's not just the agents that she says. Yeah she's so popular. Engines essentially a winning people over early on people became very quickly. Attaches her in nineteen so full to me like you. You kind of linked to new like in that sense like you. Just i do think like chill just just. You don't have to put on the biggest that her you know built her career and wherever offer in terms of like popularity that there'd be lines court to you know that's kind of what i think even demand is there for you don't have to say satisfied and especially as like that's gonna be you know if her career goes well. There'll be many years on the schools of even from the second a fan get get to see her own co two however that school now but so yeah from that sense. I think you should just chill. But i do get that. She's it's not just such chiefs young by that. She's she is like popular and prominent and she's one of the people who you know if you're you don't really follow tennis by see older player like oh you know. I know her from twenty nineteen. But i think people still haven't quite grasped. Just how kind of how. Much of a moment like cut breakthrough. I remember that being That in two thousand eighteen just like i have feeling and i've been that was i don't know what like my seventh wimbledon at that point feeling very clear like wow like at other times covered with about probably the same reward other slams being like wow. I've never been anything like this. Like just sort of excitement. I was like this was must have been what capri riady was like when she was thirteen. Doing this sort of thing like there is a different kind of hype and excitement and buzz comes when someone really young doing this and yeah at the same time like you see and say like oh throughout the asia. We don't need it at the same time. Then you see murata kanu is technically eighteen. But still brand new and her and her time with that part of it so anyway. That's probably a good amount for today's show. I think we covered stuff. I feel like i feel good about it. What is it been like for you to money. Being these matches not sure how many of them have been here. Hear this in in hearing when like bertini's at four all thirty love in the in the third set today and someone says loudly in the crisis matteo. It's coming home. what how do you feel. It's just try to ignore it. How do you feel about the holcombe coming overall. It's fun i mean it's it's you know. I mean we talked to. I don't know why. I'm saying this in a dennis book but we do. I'm not the most enthusiastic englanders. Historically this is a general generally a good bunch of guys the likable so unlikable manager. Gus office are hearing this. It's nice. It's nice like this in a way i was. I was in my article in the article. But i was coming up with their basically not showing the game on hemdale which is the choice wimbledon. Suck to which they could have done it. I think we've been popular position but they're not doing that. Imagining things you could call. It caught like southgate summit or or greenish green or cain knoll which is silent. Good works better imprint. And then there's also already a player on the team named mason mount which is fantastic. Already guys already a hill. I'm impressed. How many names you just so low you. More than like the renan's it's coming home. Apparently and i rented a room in this house. Now thank you. Tommy as always thank you to our backers. His name's i will say here in a recording. We wanna think are slam champ backers. James handles susannah w of lender mary. Carillo laya williams. Sean milroy liz kennel. Charleston wind bomb antonio may number ashley keel timothy liu johnson and our special silent backer and our go backers nicole copeland pam shriver and j. o. d. I was listening to the coming home song a ton as a historic after here. Although i was tempted to put shaggy. I don't know how much of the shaggy was audible earlier as the as the cleaning crew was playing that as they were doing our part of court one. But yeah thank you tommy. I'm glad they have good taste. I agree i was. I was happy to hear. That wasn't a folks english. Game closeted com. Go hungry kidding me.

bertini tennis roger federer ben rothenberg monte carrio matteo bertini dennis shop jovic pete holtman ostapenko bertini straw pietton olympics justin center david fromm Jovic jack draper miami murray murray roger wimbledon
A Nose for Trouble with Michael Ainslie

The Dave Pamah Show

1:05:11 hr | 1 year ago

A Nose for Trouble with Michael Ainslie

"Welcome to the Dave Thomas. Show the PODCAST FIVES RESTORES and awakens. Your innermost capability. You have the training and the talent to succeed but do you have the guts to fail. I love what I do. We love what you do. You want to be the best at it today about the power you you will change to find your path to success through the journey of those who have succeeded and now your host Dave Pomme Time. Welcome back to the show. Sometimes the greatest listening life or a direct result of diversity. Is WE FACE IN? Today's episode. I speak to a businessman who recently released a memoir of lessons learned to help the next generation of leaders. The books called a nose for trouble in his book he reveals he has amongst other things seen firsthand. The events that led to the largest bankruptcy fighting in US history the X. Chair of Abe's sent to prison escapes a riot in Vietnam faced efforts in New York City and met with First Lady. Nancy Reagan on the on. The husband was shot. Michael Ainsley welcome to the day. Palmer show Dave. It's nice to be with you. Yeah Yeah it's Nice. Oh obviously we're going pretty interesting ties now you put quite relevant and obviously who could predict any of this happening is unpredictable with the corona virus. Kobe nineteen But what article is economic situation? Which obviously you're an expert not. Well it's These are very tough times much worse than Even the two thousand eight financial crisis the switch right about it but these These times affect far more people far more families and It's very very scary time. I hope we're beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel at. It's we're not there yet. Yeah Yeah I mean. Obviously with the the health issue it's night from Asia and we shall see spots off some health issues physically immensely of people with look down and also the economic situation that people predicting will happen. Hopefully not for long but over the a recession in my country the UK and Amazingly well coincidently twenty years ago I think Kerr Asia sponsor economic situation then in one thousand nine hundred eighty so So kind of Styrofoam and Asia not blaming Asia Asia now in the Philippines but an I'm friends with China and US. Say I don't WanNa get in trouble any of those two countries but What they are comparing it to is the Great Depression because a lot of things happened that there was a physical wall what areas trade walkout on that was World War One. There was the Spanish flu virus and then the Great Depression all around the same kind of decay wasn't it? They compare this in that time. There was and The I think the difference now is that underlying. All of this there is in there was economic strength around the world. And hopefully when we get a vaccine or at least a way of of making people Immune from this That economic activity will gradually return. I don't think it'd be as prolonged as the Great Depression. But who knows if this if this virus morphs in a changes and comes back in the fall winter then it may be a long long process of recovery. Yeah so that is really. This is a big debate American on the payroll. Of course most people would like to see that. There's a recovery gone on as soon as possible really because it's global. It's a global situation where everyone's in it together. You know very well known a saying that it's true though. Isn't it really? It really is global. Ira unemployment rates up to eighteen or nineteen percent in the U. S. government has set out checks to people. Bob member arrive but a lot of them have it yet out. There is a a. I think a much more. Concerted governmental effort to cope with this than there was ten years ago twelve years ago. And that's not crisis. Yeah yeah that one was more so retires to the banks really wasn't it and the government taking care of their their own in a way. Wasn't it well the banks Were not easy to love I think this this crisis. It's about families in the young people and children and It's much easier for government to coalesce around a massive strategy and hopefully ah I hope governments all around the world are certainly our government has done. I think quite a good job of Economically responding to this. Yeah yeah well. We'll get back to that later in the podcast. But we'd like to look at is you've had your own fair share of health and wealth issues And you've been there amongst the big names and in terms of global political economic situations and your book nose for Trouble Really. It talks really about How how people can bring out the best people journeys diversity so hopefully will come up to date with the crisis today and see how we can deal with that as well and I hopefully. It won't be all doom and gloom with the message or books ending but yes. I mean you're early days in highschool you start with where you got carried off on a stretcher or something. What lessons in life there? Well I was a good athlete in High School. I was a basketball player. Was All state basketball player and I was getting all kinds of interest in going to college on a scholarship and all of a sudden in my senior year last year in high school. I got very sick. I lost about thirty forty pounds in literally. I High School graduation. I passed out and had to be carried out on a stretcher in and I was very ill I was near death. Frankly they took me off the vanderbilt medical school and they discovered. I had a very rare. Autoimmune disease called Addison's Disease Kills Your Glands. And that's what was wrong with me. And fortunately there is a replacement therapy called hydrocortisone which pretty much exactly replaces what your adrenals produce in mind. Don't happen on that. The last fifty years of my life and I'm living very successful and productive life and certainly did have that although it was a bit a roller coaster with the things you went through the introduction. We've mentioned so we can elaborate on that so Which you already high school introduction to -versities which is quite severely cause might have mentioned ice track and field athlete. Which really was spurred on from from my own adversities in I coming from a poor working class background in London in London. In those days in the seventy s and it's not now very different loudness very up and coming but So for me you know. I managed to do it unemotional into my mom. I wanted to do as that kind of background is from Vienna. Fight was great for me really since getting way by fish. Sandwich my book but with yours you know off the high school you your life you trapping something. Yeah well. I was lucky away because I tried to play basketball in college. I wasn't good enough my reflexes no slower so I got into student government and I ended up getting elected president of our student body at Vanderbilt and that really set me off at a whole different course I went to Harvard Business School. I got a job at McKenzie and I was from a very modest background. Father as salesman for National Cash Register Tennessee and Southwest Virginia learned. You learned values from him. I learned the with respect. And so I got off to a good start With my family and then fortunately I was able to go to really good schools and get a good background and then get into Mackenzie which was a great firm still is and they gave me a great grounding in business and in in life in the richest man in Britain she's got twenty billion but then that's rich man richest man in Britain about two years ago pink James Accommodating not Richard Branson his but he came from a background not me he lived in a council house which is a bit lot not projects but a bit more livable than an in similar way to you just learn values in diddy scoring in a great way became over studied chemistry and that's Stacy's companies petroleum company and then start his company and then it became a billionaire that way from a very very modest background. I didn't become a billionaire but I was fortunate to get some very good Jobs and and meet people along the way on one of the early stories I tell was when I was working at Z. I actually took a leave and worked for the mayor of New York and I. I was working on a project and a lot of inner city communities the South Bronx and East Harlem in one week in. They said they were upset with me because I was trying to cut back some of the projects. They were funding on. They said. Let's go get Ainsley. And they were they were carrying their up their pistols to get me I went anyway on the weekend. I survive Noah. No rods came out Luckily we're GonNa talk about someone who got shot at a later on in your life where he was very close to that but hopefully president trump. Otherwise let's say Donald Duck to him just mossy jokes anyway. Yes so. That's that's the time when you got shot in New York City. Then when he was working for the mayor and well the shots did not get fired but they were supposedly coming to get me but I survived it and And had a had a exciting but safe weekend. Yeah Yeah some people you talk about learning to lead a you're vulnerable yes And then so that was. It was When you worked in the New York City before you travel the world in a back to my my college experience I ran for student. Body president on a platform of abolishing the student Senate your which was our our body of of governing on the student government but it was really a ring not a very productive body so I got elected on that platform but then I had to convince twenty eight senators to vote themselves out of existence and I did that. We won twenty four to four and it gave me a lot of confidence that if you have a good idea inter very clear about what you WanNa do and you really get excited about it and build a coalition of people that agree with you. You can get things done and that helped me and my whole life. I really got a lot of confidence from that early years. And that's what I tell my young Posse scholars will talk about policy later. But Yeah I've said this program I've been involved with now for twenty five years. We send inner city kids off two great universities and they become leaders because they get confident they have people who support them they have mentors around them and they have peers. That's care about. Yeah Yeah Okay. We'll come come onto the policy as a laser but after after your vanderbilt as you say which was after University you went to wasn't it? It was in Nashville Tennessee. Yes yeah you went Which my students do take a gap year and then they go traveling in the wells. Soclean at twenty did it. Mark Twain is in Aden carry. Martha is I love traveling. But not now but you went traveling expanding your worldview and had a corkscrew landing in Vietnam. So explain about you'll you'll you'll is now. That was really dangerous and I knows for was really twitching. Then the up as you said I took a gap year and I went on a traveling fellowship it was called the Corning World Travel Fellowship. I went to about thirty five countries or year and this was nineteen sixty five and six right. I am war yellow. I went to Vietnam Really out of curiosity really wanted to know. Why were we in this war and was was it a war. That was when a bullet I ended up meeting. The personnel director of the construction company was building for the US. Army and Military Ryan. I ended up becoming one of a two man team. Negotiating a wage settlement Twenty five thousand Vietnamese employees. I mean really hard to believe but the the construction manager was Vietnamese as well. I know he was an American he. Okay American they're under contract to the US Navy by and Most of his employees virtually all of them were Vietnamese. I said the cost of living had tripled due to the war and they weren't giving raises to these people and he was furious if the State Department and the Navy so he hired me and I told him I was economist. Well I had an economics degree from Vanderbilt about one year earlier so I wasn't exactly a a season economist. But he hired me and we went to work and we settled the strike amazingly but it was a very complicated settlement. They sent me to go around into the construction sites to explain the settlement. And I get up to a very very War-torn area called play coup but I remember Blake coup being one of the toughest a- battlegrounds of the Vietnam War. Yeah we're making a landing in the pilot. I'm in a small Beechcraft Baron just me and the pilot if he says we're GONNA land in a corkscrew so they can't shoot us down. We're only I and I said. Oh that's exciting. The corkscrew and lose one of our two engines goes out on and I'm sweating bullets violent. And he's Kinda grinning and he says don't worry we can land on one engine. Just be glad it wasn't tomorrow morning when we were taken off because we can't take off one engine we would have been in the in the jungle and we had. This happened five minutes later flight time. Anyway that was the closest came to a real Demise yes it was because of Jerry. Yeah when when he's actually land in its gliding can pretty much. There's some electrical ever that can pretty much glide two miles in but still gonna be pretty difficult to land the plane. It's the most dangerous part of pilots. How journey of flying a plane is actually land more than the takeoff. But yeah I mean if he's now engine you take off is a different thing you know it's GonNa come back down but anyway that's something. I'll go toe by some pilots. So yeah you had some some entrances times in Vietnam a quite time going in a war-torn country up being in some couple of countries when they had the dispute guide on land in Thailand about five six years ago when the military coup just about half an hour before they announced it. I landed at airport so that was like you know. And then they put curfews and everything So that was interesting just experienced a lot. But nothing what you've experienced anyway. But Yeah so you try a fair bit and that was a memorable spouse of you're traveling dangerous paw with the was. It was a great year. I really learned a lot about other cultures and other people I got into some very difficult situations in Israel and was all the out of Africa and I so I learned a lot. That was very helpful later in my business. Life this good. Yeah having that so Character character-building so experienced really that and so Yeah that's kind of another taste of adversity as really in some situations but also how how you mind deals a bit really soon testing in that situation so We'd be career beginnings Just looking at book again. So you mentioned about a difference in New York City an offset your working life ice transfer from New York to post a Rica. Yes well my first. Real big job was building a resort in Puerto Rico A place called Palmas del. Mar this is a large scale development about three thousand acres We we spent four years building. The infrastructure Took over one hundred million dollars to build the roads. The water the sewer the telephone systems And every every time the government of Puerto Rico promised us some form of infrastructure they fail to deliver and we'd have to spend more capital more money getting it ready. We then started selling. And we sold lots and condominiums and wrought tennis tournaments and models great great activity to the site. We are off to a great start in him. And this was back in the mid Seventies Ryan. There was a worldwide Oil Embargo somewhat like the crisis in oil recently. Except this was Brought on by political decision to basically penalize the US Israel so it created a huge recession in the US in In the mid seventies and everybody tried to get out of any contract they could and so our project which had been off to a good start. Suddenly we couldn't pay the banks and we spent a year trying to cut costs and find new sources of equity and all of that and We lost it. We basically had to give what's called a deed in lieu of bankruptcy. We had to give the deeds over to the banks because week but not pay back our loans. That was probably my first big Adversity and in less than which is you just can't let yourself get to leverage to get too much borrowed money right so you did pay. You gave a lot of leverage twenties properties. We did we were. We were very leveraged. We had not a lot of equity in about one hundred plus million of debt right and I wanted to bank to the dates back. Because he's really basically they money prophecy like so. That was UH. Yeah that's that's a big lesson there to learn but of course you sound occupancy resilient type of entrepreneurial type of person that just wants to keep going we even literally nothing in your pocket and it sounds sounds of things with this So what did you go off to that? Well fortunately I I was I was. I HAD TO BE RESILIENT. I have a wife and four kids by this time and a went to an old friend who had gone to business go with at Harvard and said in you find me a job. He fortunately he was looking for A. He was a head hunter. He was in the business of lacing. Young executives found me a job in Cincinnati Ohio with an oil and gas and in a fertilizer company called in rim. So I took my road and we moved to Cincinnati. Back in the late Seventies. And that's where I spent five years Running this company but more importantly I learned how to restore buildings. I started buying up old buildings my wife and I then were very involved in historic preservation. And we spent five years probably bought about fifteen. We would rent them out or sell them. It was nice little business. And if that's what that that chapter my life entailed that he the nasty shocking lesson you learned in Puerto Rico. Didn't put you off doing that. Then no except I did it on a much. Smaller scale and with LESS LEVERAGE RYAN SAYS LESSON LEARNED. A definite experience. Really isn't it yeah. Yeah so So you got in the book. Come around at Tom. You refocus the National Trust so this came soon after you when I conceal property ventures again well exactly Because I was restoring buildings in involved in the neighborhoods of of Cincinnati Got To know very good friend who was on the board of the National Trust I was invited in the in the late. In one thousand nine hundred eighty to become president of the National. Trust for starkness ovation. Yes and that was that would have meant moving to Washington DC where it was headquartered and after a lot of discussion and negotiation. We decided to do that. So I moved with my family and my wife and That was really a fabulous experience. We we really changed preservation. We I knew the economics well for my real estate background so we went to work on the tax law and we change the Crete created these historic tax credits called a twenty five cent historic tax credits that made it profitable in an economically viable to restore buildings and so it led to a boom around the country and preservation. And you cut your property at the same time the one you just just actually we did. Not We sold everything in Cincinnati and Really Trust. I've felt cash buffer weedy. Well they didn't marry Bruce that much cash right okay. Interesting interesting but it was a big break working for the National Trust and obviously getting a project that really gave me such a big big thing to mention your resume. He'd be like well. It was more than that. It was a lot of fun. Reagan had gotten elected and as you mentioned in the lead I was I went to Mrs Reagan and ask her to come to a luncheon at our home in Georgetown and we tried to get her to become the sponsor or the spokesperson for one of our programs which was revitalizing small. Towns called the main street program. Yeah well she was about to say yes and then she said you know I need to go. I'll think about this. She left our house and literally as she walked out the door or kitchen. Door Open in the caterer came out and said President Reagan's been shot so Nancy. Reagan was seated by my side when President. Reagan was shot on that. Fateful Day Martin. Now I had reaction a reaction because obviously people have seen their car and apparently she instead of going to the White House they diverted to Walter Reed Hospital where he was. Yeah for his life to live and I mean people still see these separate pictures or set you alarming pictures of Council Kennedy our company with its Kennedy and obviously they see the wife Cronin and the Car United States Fair for for the first lady as well as the the president unless they go around with doing what trump does. But let's not politically and obviously I remember that I remember. When that was mentioned was up was a wind up. Someone was joking when I was a kid. I learned about fifteen years but reason why because John Lennon just got shot in New York shot dead and is well known of UK Big Star in the music business. So I just because something happened. Assassination doesn't mean that other a joke Israel. We set two news half an hour later really but I remember that. Well it's around. Tom Announce pretty much like you at high school when you when you had your first adversity. Um So yeah so so. That's quite an interesting thing to be around. You know political moment as well but then after the national trust I mean you moved to. Why did you move onto some of? He's just change in a professional. Well I tell a story in the book about my First Wife Lucy. She was very knowledgeable about historic preservation and really encouraged me to get into it back in Cincinnati but unfortunately when we got to the National Trust She wanted to run things and I was actually the president so we kind of got cross ways and we did a lot of counseling and decided to get divorced after many months and so we separated and Suddenly I had two families to financially support And that necessitated my leaving the National Trust Ayatollah. Sam I would stay for four five five years and that's about what it was right so I went back to my head. Hunter friend and ask him. I said now I really need a job and he said well it's interesting. I've just been approached by a man. They Alfred Taubman who has bought Sotheby's and he wants to find a new business person who can come run. Sotheby's I said well I've heard of Al Todman. I don't know him but I'll be glad to go talk to it so They felt my background at the national. Trust in my finance real estate background was a good background for running the auction business yet so I went to New York. We didn't actually see eye-to-eye the first meeting but we went. I went back a few weeks months later. And we made an agreement so I went to nineteen eighty-four went moved up to New York and took over as CEO of salaries. Well show salaries. I mean both those those names of very big names in the UK and National. Trust is louder the national trust in America because what he permanent herited to America is very historical establishment in the UK in some very very precision. Buildings can't touch them. I mean even as a fight when I was in fire safety mission to the actual for is before we could change that window changed. That is wasn't easy. They're very prestigious buildings national. Trust and then salve. Abe's most biggest auction. You could ever think of United UK when you hear as it's not very very yes it was. It was a wonderful company founded in seventeen forty four believe it or not in London. Yeah and But when I got here in nineteen eighty four. Nine hundred eighty four. It was a mess is a lot of fighting between London and New York. The company merged with the New York auctioneer called Parker Net Ryan had two different names. New York was called Suddaby. Parker net in London was Sutherland's so one of the first things I had to do was change. The name of New York to Abe's rise that we were the same worldwide. Yeah New York. People weren't very happy about that. 'cause they're they're history. Memory was with our net. Okay anyway there were a lot of things that I write a lot about it Endurable what we had to change We really were selling to the wrong customer. We were selling to art dealers and both and I realized quickly. We really need to be selling to art. Collectors would make people that happening We sold a lot of things all over the spectrum from small and not so expensive to multi-million dollar paintings in in jewelry and so yeah well I mean they're looking at Modernized in the suburbs is the name of the chapter. Said which is what you're doing there. It sounds a lot of explaining now and I'll say so. I'll just see some of the headings. You've put the changing of the situation. The unconventional approaches the building of the top of the ocean house behind the scenes. I mean I suppose the to two loss was behind. The scenes in the south is price fixing scandal. Now those those are the ones way I mean. Some went to prison because they But the other they can find out in a book and read it. But that's quite scandalous. I mean just give us a little bit of taste of all. The price fixing scandal is is really the big story in my book. there was a A woman named any Brooks who was my number two while I was running. He's very bright very talented but ultimately very tricky When I left she became the CEO. I was I was head of it for ten years and had traveled the world and frankly it was an exhausting job because we were in eighty five countries. I had traveled constantly and we had turned it around. We'd made a big success out of the business a Todman in his Decade that I was there on a forty million dollar investment. He made six hundred million dollars. Yeah fifteen times his money. That's a pretty good return I Made I had some stock options so I had done. Well Yeah and so I laughed and Dede Brooks took over well unfortunately Her moral compass was a little wacky illegally. Colluding with the CEO of Christie's do what we call price-fixing they agreed on a commission structure. That would be dental for both houses. And that would be non-negotiable. They also agreed not to steal each other's employees. They agreed on allocating certain clients to different. Your your client. Is this person my client is that person we won't try and steal our clients. They had a whole literally five hundred pages of illegal agreements and that did not come out for several years. I left in ninety five. This finally came out in two and when it came out it was big news. It's shocked the world She then claimed that. Todman who had been my chairman and was also heard. Chairman had forced her to do this to keep her job. I say in the book that I don't believe that. I think she did on her own volition. And I think Auburn was the fall guy and I give a bunch of reasons why I think that obviously I had to be careful. Because I wasn't there. I don't know precisely what happened yet. I knew the way Todman. I related and he never made me do anything that I didn't think was right for the company. He loves other. Bet's he loved the company And so that's the big story. It almost took Saudis under very painful period for the next decade. Yeah Yeah that's interesting. Nothing and upstate. People can have a dive deeper dive into that scandal when they read a book or look into it So Yeah so interesting the way the way. It came out As you may or may not know Christie's owned by very wealthy Frenchman named Francois P no still today. Yeah Pino fired the chairman. I mean the CEO of Christie's. Whose name was Chris. Davidge in Davidge was the guy with whom Didi Brooks had. Colluded saying he had kept all of these papers. This five hundred page trove of illegal agreements which became known as the hot potato. It'd be not the Panama. Papers but nice called the hot potato pipers instead exactly. So he set a few of these pages to Pino when Pino tried to fire him. He said if you want more of these you're going to have to pay me for them. No considered what his options were and he said. Well how much Davidge said pounds and million pounds well known as mowing and that. Tom is about fifteen million dollars. Yeah so Pino decided it was better to pay and get the get the upper hand so he actually paid Davidge. This settlement took the documents sent him to a lawyer and there was a race to the. Us Justice Department in Christie's won the race. The first one end on price-fixing gets immunity. So Christie's got off light. Some other bees really got got hammered and almost went under his accompanying the fines loss of clients the loss of credibility in the marketplace. It was really horrific horrific so In your position in some abuse and that time was Anita next out all over the full out. No I was I was I had a ten year contract with Todman. He was it was a fascinating man but he was not easy to work with. He liked the micromanage. Yeah so I told him I was going to leave. I had made money from my stock options. He had made a lot of money. So we actually parted. I stayed on the board. He asked me to stay around in oversee. Thanks for another three or four years. Yeah so all. This was done amicably by. Unfortunately he ended up going to jail. He got there was a trial and the jury decided. That Ju- Didi Data. Must be right. That he must have made her do this and I knew all about it and there was no evidence. It was all circumstantial and her word about aim for a year. He went to jail for a year his late Seventies. It was not a pretty sight. Not Sunny is in but these things do happen and catch up with some people like that and it probably probably still has some form of innocence. In the way that it's been disrupted well. He certainly claimed his innocence. Unfortunately for him he died about three years ago in his early nineties. Nobody'll know what what really happened. But my At least my view on what I think happened some other way by the way his is family. His son called me up after my book came out. And he said you weren't. You weren't universally positive about my father. And he did have some wards bite. You told the story the way you believe it and we thank you. We think it's probably more accurate than what's been told. His family sounds like a script that hardwood film script writer would like to get back. That story so spun in a certain way. We'll see rumor back at the time when it was more relevant than sigourney weaver was gonNA play Dede Brooks and there was going to be a movie but I don't think it ever got off the ground. Yeah still still thinks things up for a few years before I decide. So we'll say yeah interesting interesting scandal interesting story and again you're right in the thick of your in Satan firsthand. How things have developed. Right from Reagan's Ronald Reagan. Getting shot to in around that it's amazing but Yeah so you knows for trouble eventually got you left leaving. Salva base at your own cold and then you went on to revamp the US. According to the next chapter that was a lot of fun. I Love Tennis. My wife is a a national champion? She wanted to New York state in northeastern shifts back when she was a playing amateur. Yeah at good but I played reasonably well off on the Board of the US Tennis Association which runs the US. Open and really is in charge of tennis in this country. Yeah I found the board not a very effective body. It was trying to be a management committee. Met met literally every month for three or four days. It was much up and so I was one of a group that got the USDA to hire someone to come in and run our US Open. We found a fantastic executive name. Arslan can -Tarian who had been at the NFL and at Radio City Music Call. He had a great entertainment and sports background and he did amazing things to build up the. Us Open He He started something called the. Us Open series which links all the tournaments in the summer to the US Open and the players. It's a little bit like the Fedex Cup in golf whites if they win the tournament in Canada or the tournament and Cincinnati. Turn on run wherever and then if they win the US Open. They get double the prize money so it helped all the tournaments eating up to the US Open. Many of the big players had skipped those tournaments previously anyway Arlen did a great job in his is Several years there. He ended up making a big payday from self. We had made a a kind of a profit sharing deal with him. He ended up getting a nine million dollar payment when he when his contract was up and But he made far more money than that ten times that in new money for the US Open. So I had a lot of fun using some of my business skills and and experiences helping revamp the US Open in. If you look at the place now they just built a five hundred million dollar new roof over the stadium new Louis Armstrong Court New Chase Entertainment Center. Which is a phenomenal building. All that resulted from the money that Arlen earned in the US air from his efforts so it was. It was a good involvement. Yeah yeah well and success on a nice little job as well when I say fun. Your sports one of my passions lock was yours when he was a high school so even while. I was in the fire. Service is to stay active sellers to continue day. Mind so I met some some good spokespeople compete at high level. Nine sports as well say I will do is. I was getting to know Arthur. Ashe Arthur was an amazing man and sadly he died much too young but I was involved in building a sculpture statue in four or Open stadiums aren't there. There was no place where he was commemorated. And so we built a hired a Vanden artists and built a beautiful bronze sculpture. That still today stands there in his memory. Yeah an interview of a sports journalist Book about a William's sister and we spoke about off rushing and someone else played around this home. You off is playing in the fifties. I think she was black first. Black female wooden finalist or something anyway from the French Open but anyway Gibson Bassett yeah. We're speaking about her off fresh and I'll see the Williams sisters because he's lights focus about them say well that's interesting I. My book was Co written with a tennis writer named Richard Evans. Whose Shaun Silva Yeah Great. Great Guy and we really have a lot of fun working together. He's ABC IS ABC out of Wimbledon couples. Women's -actly unfortunately look after the safety of the the public in the center. Some unfortunate got to watch all the Games from two thousand and four when Sharapova won first Wimbledon too low T. thousand citing four in ten years. Of what all the matches from everyone a bad job. I met some few high profile people in the crowd as came in spectators. But not as good as being journalists and I say you got to speak to them directly so but yeah yeah. That's a fun job as well as obviously during what he was doing in your mind job which is a lot and paid and mine. I enjoy being a firefighter as well. So but anyway the courses and then you moved on from Ashley the US Before before from isn't is not actually of the US Going to go and he says Hospice what isn't it well at the moment. They're using the kitchens to provide food. They have not decided. In fact I just got an email from the day or two ago saying they're going to wait six weeks before they decide to hold or cancel this year in mid June. They're gonNA make a decision a decision. Yeah Yeah I'm flushing. Meadows is yes. Oh it's the same for UK. Soccer English soccer. Sorry these the League is like Super Bowl. So That's England hard Wimbledon within. That's cancer early on you. Know one of the reasons. They cancelled right they actually. They were smart enough to take out an insurance policy. Remember or DEMOC does eight got aid. Paid by the insurance carriers one hundred million. Pounds cancelling turn it Finger saw something about that. Yeah The is not going for Federal. And everyone else who's in love play in there because I know as a spokesman playing it doesn't matter you know winning money your love for the sport isn't it. Just having that buzz I saw I saw yesterday. Rafael Nadal suggested that they should cancel the entire year of Turni's and his reasoning was that that it takes so much work to get into really playing condition. Yes tournaments that a lot of players are likely to get injured in probably for the elderly group like himself in Jovic and vetere. Yeah that could be the end of their careers at estimating state. Caitlyn self safe and healthy away from the corona variety. Really say that's the other thing. It's the same with the Olympics. Some people are saying well. You know the older Olympia Susan how I was just get my last Olympics and is moved a year on you know and I don't have can eat like this. In trained hard light they see nother year slide. The mental battle bit really so anyway. We'll move on for that Because obviously has decided. It's a nice nice job that you had with the the. Usda so from there you move onto let collapse collapse. The Leonard Collapse Service your inside view in the truth of the matter as you described in subtitles. Well I've been interviewed on Bloomberg television recently out the Lehman Collapse Because everybody still wants to know why the heck did this happen and it was such a devastating blow on an economy on frankly on the entire financial system of the US. This is getting into the timeframe here. It's just very interesting because the collapse is two thousand. Eight two thousand nine that one so you went there just before and you went there and just before no. I had actually been on the board of Lehman since ninety six so bored of Liman for about ten or eleven eleven twelve years. Yeah yeah bankruptcy occurred. I see so you sweep brewing up. Basically I saw. I saw the growth in various products. A lot of which were what are called some subprime Bonds that were to finance subprime housing and that was really a big part of the of the of the crisis was that a lot of these subprime bonds became worthless Lehman was not actually very big in that market. Our problem was too much real estate. We had built commercial buildings in were lenders to developers and and in lots of projects and in my opinion this was a void. Totally avoidable Calamity if you remember back then. The Secretary of the Treasury was a man in Hank Paulson Hank pulse and had been the CEO of Goldman Sachs. Brian George Bush recruited him to come into the government he had to sell his Goldman Sachs stock. Total four hundred and sixty million dollars on a very very wealthy man. He didn't WanNa take the job but he finally did he. And our CEO at Leeann. Whose name was Dick. Fold did not have a good relationship. They really did not like each other yet. They were very competitive. Fold was intensely competitive guy. We had just taken some of their key people away from Goldman Sachs in my opinion. This was very personal. It was not based on on economic facts When you look back and I actually have a book here called the Fed and Lehman Brothers. Were either book. This is written by the head of economics at Johns Hopkins. Yeah yeah the same one that's keeping his stats for the current ivars exactly at university in Baltimore Maryland gray raids. You'll yeah in a Larry Ball Orange Bowl. This dean of Economics says there's no question that Lehman had plenty of collateral. The government could have continued lending to Leeman but they simply decided they were GonNa do it. In my opinion it was personal. It was not Political A I mean it was politically wasn't economics and it wasn't the Federal Federal Reserve. Doing what it's supposed to do. I go into great detail about why. I think this was a mistake that could have been avoided in the world would have been so much better off. Even if they had wiped out all of the equity the shareholders of Liman they did not need put it into bankruptcy. So that's the that's probably the most explosive part in my book Hank Paulson is not gonNA like my book. I'm sure ratted because I gave it to people that are right close to him yet. I haven't heard from him. I'll just say that. Yeah it's interesting. Some tons of book can be a weapon not that as well when when especially also weight is kind of like a biography year. Isn't it really as well as a kind of like my poker more of a self help for adversity but yours is a biography? As well. As native your journey with ups and downs I tell a story talking about a biography? I tell story my wife. And my daughter Serena who was eleven years watching all this in in Florida where we live. I was in New York at the Lehman. Board meetings in Serena. Here's the LEMANS going into bankruptcy. Possibly and she looks at her mother and she says Mommy. It's okay. Tell Daddy I can sell my toys on Ebay. Yeah that she she as many as well although she wouldn't apply lighter toys being sold unless they're really all toys and play with them anymore but anyway let's not let's get real anyway but a real story. Not they're just a little joke there anyway anyway. So Yeah Yeah so leaving. Lebron yes. This led to the biggest bankruptcy in. Us history. Basically it did. It was a disaster and they asked me for some reason to stay on as chairman of the board. After the bankruptcy called Leeann estate I love that term. Something like a dead body so for the next live six years. I was chairman of Leeann Estate. We still had huge multi billion dollars of assets and we actually did very well. We tripled the value of those assets in the next five years. So the idea that Lima didn't have the assets to provide loans against which not true so it I stayed on involved until probably about twenty thirteen or fourteen still a long time in all those companies you work for. You gave yourself a set time and Morris to my time say five years in national trust ten years in several and we won't count. Us That's kind of as a site for me as a fun job and you didn't realize for five years but it was a lot of fun. Yeah exactly and then Obviously Lehman was almost fifteen years it yes and the way I expected it to end. Yeah well are very serious. WanNA biggest bankruptcy in US history and of course We're going to bring out to modern times in the mail anyway because of the crisis is something nobody can help because it's mixture of health which you've upset your show of health issues but and economic which is bigger bigger impact than the actual were healthy impact. But to go into this happens you from from limited right up to modern times now well I got I got involved with a very very wonderful organization called the posse and that's been my frankly migrate. Love and satisfaction posse is a simple concept sand kids from the inner city who are bright and leaders to college as a cohort. A group of ten kids. Yeah so they support each other. They they help each other through the tough patches which we all know we have in -nology rusty posse has been an unbelievable success. We now have posses on fifty seven different university campuses ten kids in each class. So that's forty on each campus. Where now sending this year will send our ten thousand kid to college on this program. Ninety percent of them are graduating. Eighty percent of become president of something on campus. They're going on. The graduates are now becoming presidents. And one of them's even president of a college already. And she said Dominican cab drivers daughter from Brooklyn if the college on the board back at Vanderbilt where she went in love and aimed at so people deprived background and bringing them up given the scholarship to well. We DON'T CALL IT DEPRIVED. We call it. It's a it's a strength based program. It's for kids that have all the drive in intellectual ability. But they don't have the money and they go to bed is rules so they don't have. Sat Prep course money. They don't have all the benefits that upper middle class kids have. They just need an opportunity and once they get on these tough university campuses they they soar. They just do phenomenally well. Yeah Yeah I wished I. That's up changes around for me. But I kind of goal in life which I of managed to achieve and it didn't involve but I suppose now I suppose I would appreciate it. You're you're kind charity. Really you say Student doing something you love Causes which sent you have done connecting Creighton beginnings which is certainly something proven to done. You start this after Lennon this this charity just before actually no. It is my involvement began. Just as I was leaving. Sotheby's back in the nineties and I was looking for a project that really resonated with me because I had I would never have been able to do anything without scholarship money At Vanderbilt and at Harvard Business School I went full scholarships. My family didn't have the money to send me a great susie so I got involved in Partly because I was kind of disgusted with the way money was being thrown at art. Yeah I saw the people spending so much money on art these. Yeah when I was at Saturday's I saw these egos of big buyers coming in and they just wanted to become well known globe. Nicest and many of them didn't really care that much about the art but I said I WANNA put my energies into education and caused like a like well. I mean that's still guy now and something light so you start it from after southeby's from seeing. How many team front around basically yeah? I had a woman There was a woman named Debbie. Bill who was the founder and she was a woman in her mid twenty S. When I offer she and I became partners. I was chairman of the Board. I brought in a lot of wealthy people and and not so wealthy. Some people like David Dinkins the mayor of New York. We got on the board a lot of people that could help in other ways and be role models for these students. But Debbie is still today running posse. She's been A. She's gotten all kinds of acknowledgment. She was making chosen Macarthur Genius Award winner. President Obama gave a one part of his Nobel prize winnings to Posse because he likes the program so much and so she's been a she's an amazing amazing leader couldn't doing now anyway with the policy challenge dealer member. Yes yeah so. That's that's great that you at least got some connection with something with all the trials and tribulations you can free your own life as a salad mention something might and it's a different kind of journey. Impa I talks yours but it's great that you've come on the show and just moving forward which he written any book. Kerm you mentioned limited life and we want to bring that up to date with crisis going on because the whole point of guests lot you kind of wish is to inspire people to live a good life with the great minds you've had and you start. Yes and character building and good integrity coming through because you probably put some of your own authentic folks. I did the same thing and has got fired with somethings say to someone. Wrongdoings that I've seen is probably were named a whistle blow at one point but you know you kind of remind that carries a also wanted to do good. You know if you manage to get through and do some good time in big companies or big organizations well renounced but so now we're we're we're we're we're now in very big situation in the world It's really the case where everyone's coming together. And as I said the beginning of the show here people compared to the Great Depression. And some people don't know especially people involved Lock yourself going to economic space. The they don't use some people depression but some people saying it's looking like it's going towards that way some people say no. It'll be a very very deep dive. Everyone is diving down the economy. But it's going to bounce back completely up again but really the main thing. That moment is the the health situation of people dying off see. I'm concerned your concern. We want we want both and wealth. Don't really good life like you say it's it's a very challenging time and sadly I don't think our federal government has done a good job of leadership Been Lots of confusion about testing about of vaccines in about Social distancing and In my opinion a too quickly we're trying to get back to work and back to back to normal. Yes we all Wanna get back to work. We WanNA get revenue back into people's hands but we are we're risking a re recurrence of this pandemic if we're not careful to be thoughtful and careful I think a lot of the thinking about segregating older people you know. I'm seventy seven years old. I I don't WanNa be around a bunch of people that are going to give me the virus. I'm probably a high risk personal. Oh I haven't audience to medical condition. As it considered severe autoimmune disease would probably make me vulnerable. Yes yes yes. I think some of the ideas of leading younger healthier people go back to work make sense By keeping older less vulnerable are more vulnerable people a segregated in in their homes or in in various ways. Cobley that is a is a good strategy. I know Sweden Jiang at Tom. Friedman is come out recommending it in this country. A lot of people are beginning to think. That way yeah. Let's let's see what happens there. But they need to solve something and then they need to listen to the to the actual scientific experts are coming from. Who Dylan to the local government ones in each state country? It's interesting seeing macron. Going against his his government scientific advice. The young children like an entry kindergarten. Go to school straight away. I can understand the older ones because they're not going to stand don't younger ones. Monarchy associate distance. Noga runs grandparents Allen. Wherever you about Sir. Right or wrong thing but You know it's what's going to happen now so we'll see about that Intensity occur economic situation. What would you be your thoughts? Aaron what would you say as someone? Maybe he sat in a board of major things. Inexperienced LAW STA economic crash with the bankruptcy. Well I think this. This crisis is much more severe because as I said earlier it affects so many more families and people and young people you know. Basically a half of the world is stop getting a paycheck of maybe it's forty percent. A huge percentage of people aren't able to work at all in their businesses are able to go virtual So it's a very severe economic crisis We've got to get through it and we've got to be smart about how we get through it because ultimately we've got to get people back to work when side believe the economy is strong a once we get through it. There will be certain industries like travel and cruise ships airlines and so on My daughter flew back for her graduation last night. To Vanderbilt to national care was virtually no one on the plying. It was like a ghost town. Gm flew from Fort Lauderdale to Nashville and there was literally about ten people on a southwest flight so they the whole travel industry in the hotel industry and all these restaurants and cruise ships. It'll be a long time recovering in those are huge job. Creating Industry Museum. Yeah we're in a recession for a good while club. I don't think it's going to be a global depression but I think it will be a serious recession for at least the next couple of years. Yeah and that's GONNA citing. Yeah it'd be a bad as long as vaccines actually cause. We attacked Iraq. Seen so that if you sign a year to year and a half everyone's actually at the effects of taken aback inside like you say it'll be about two years by the time it's all done dust it or at least a bit more safer than he is now really we will come to the end of the show so we were as we said about moving forward. What would be your advice and living a good life considering all your ups and downs and experienced rating is not your own ups and downs. Just what you've experienced proof you know. My advice is keep positive. Keep Learning don't think you know everything because you're not the smartest person in the room no matter what how smart you thank you are In IPE CARING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE. Keep showing your loved. It's time for a deep meditation for us to all Talk to family and friends and be close to people. We Love In many ways I think this may end up being a watershed for our globe. Hope we need to embrace our friends or we need to open up our world to immigration. We need to do a lot of things differently than what's happening. And I hope this will be a moment when we began doing that. Not Necessarily Gray and Um we see with people saying it's going to be a new when if you just get back it'll be a new new kind of getting back really but we'll see I mean thanks for sending things at different Hyundai so as you say with the brings out the best people in. Let's let's hope that that Sir Trivia. Thanks Dave I've enjoyed this you've been wonderful done rotational do till your BBC in tennis. Journeys friend about my podcast. Maybe my get any of the BBC amount show a couple a couple friends in a BBC. Probably listen to but anyway monkeys knows for trouble and Sunday lived the life and certainly having a good life. Thanks very much for coming on my show. Thanks Dave enjoyed it thanks. Okay what are sort of episode. Thanks for listening and remember if you want to support what we do. Then share subscribe and leave a review overnight. Choose well that's all for now but I'll see you in the next episode of the Dave Palmer Show on facebook twitter and instagram xl.

US Board New York City High School UK New York President Reagan chairman president Cincinnati National Trust Vietnam CEO Vanderbilt basketball Dede Brooks London Michael Ainsley
Flirting with Fascism: America's New Path? (Encore Nov. 29, 2018)

Ideas

54:35 min | 2 years ago

Flirting with Fascism: America's New Path? (Encore Nov. 29, 2018)

"This is a cbc podcast in december and arrest was made for canada into the middle of a trade war between the united states and china china's i'm steven quinn sanctioned is the complicated story of how and why faraway cfo's mung one joe was arrested how will this impact are lies and technology sanction subscribe at cbc dot c h slash sanctions or wherever you get your podcast i'm paul kennedy induces government in the united states has never been immune fascism is nineteen thirty nine braley attracted twenty thousand members of a german american fascist groups inside madison square garden in new york or be american flag was on full display decided a swastika better ladies and gentlemen middle america america hey it was called pro america rally where roosevelt's new deal was referred to as the judy throughout its history many commentators have built on easy speaking about fascism in america a debate continues to this day yeah i yeah i i this is a major debate memories you're ruse in american scholar and public intellectual and i think it's it's it's in some ways it's a it's a it's distracting debate in the united states i mean they argument he goes like this donald trump he is in hitler so therefore you can't talk about fascism but the point is we're not talking about whether fascism could only be defined in terms of whether it mimics precisely the elements of fascism that we saw in the past what were really arguing is what is it fascist politics looked like henry's you're ruis the professor of scholarship in the public interest at mcmaster university in his book american nightmare he explores the fascist landscape and draws works of an errant sheldon woolen aldous huxley george orwell and others to help understand the politico currents coursing through america today i think that america is at war with itself and i think the elections proved that but i think the senate is filled with vichy republicans i think you have the senate is basically a wrecking that's a wrecking ball for democracy giving donald trump's assault on the truth henry drew says every day he remains as president is it takes americans closer to fascism producer mary o'connell sits down with henry's you're rude to discuss these ideas in an episode called working bashes america's new town so henry 'em you open your book american nightmare with a quote from hannah around it is far easier to act under conditions of tyranny than it is to sink tell me why you open a book like this and what's the core of this idea well i think what i was trying to say forty brought upon their run quote is that you know people all of a sudden find themselves in a society in which they they feel incredibly polos they feel vulnerable 'em all of a sudden he these institutions that provide meaningful possibilities bility's social bonds to be nourished for public goods that speak to the highest of ideals disintegrating we don't talk about democracy anymore united states market donald trump ever talk about democracy the word almost never he almost never used the word because democracy gets in the way it assumes that people should be held accountable and i think what we see particularly in the united states at this moment in this is why the iran quote it seems to me is is so relevant we begin to see a culture of fear and bigotry overcoming a culture of shared responsibilities and shared values it's easy to all of a sudden to be come susceptible to the temptations of fascism donald donald trump believes that the production of hate is ultimate measure of leadership and what's the point of at the point of it is basically to organize a base of supporters who who in some way feel the way he does resentful that their power is being taken way it's a it's a powerful motivator it's much easier to just sort of free chait an organizer society that we want by saying that there are people who were taking it away from us that easier a maybe because hits it's an emotional cord that in a time of despair and existential anxiety has more residents that's easy many people now find themselves living societies to which they experience a kind of social homelessness detached from an invisible to the policies in language of those in power eric from an hannah aren't among others that reminded us ruthlessness create the conditions foreign escape from freedom and social responsibility and so then people find meaning in the foundations of to tell it tarian ism so i want to ask you henry can you talk about this rootless mass this social homelessness that you just said you're buck one of the things that i've always been impressed with this is you know they really frankfurt school people like a dono in crime they understood something about capitalism they knew they produced a lot of misery who is based in a notion of inequality that in many ways made people very vulnerable and susceptible to tell tarian ideas beers in one of the things they they talked about is one of the consequences of the mobilizing passions of the savage capitalism which is a kind of homelessness you know a sense of of the loss of communities landscape changing the landscape the landscape staples certainty moves to a landscaper precarity we have a society that says that in many ways you know somebody else's gain is your loss this is a society in which coaches become a hard couple that with culture of immediacy mhm a culture vincent pleasure when iraq when iran wants said sinking is dangerous what she meant by that was fascist realize that when people think they connect mhm they could hold power accountable so what do we do we we all of a sudden find ourselves with a government that says there's no such thing as truth more importantly you de politicize now they become followers they don't learn how to govern they just simply accept learning gotta be governed to know is that why henry on that note that there has been a number of of books the number of articles a number of surveys the pews center you highlighted in your book a researcher gwen guilford concludes that young people have grown weary of democracy and one quarter dismissed the importance of free elections there's a lot of talk about this kind of democracy fatigue is coming out of debt ruthlessness or social homeless it's it's coming out of the roof dismisses coming out of existential anxiety it's coming out of the recognition that democracy as it's defined within the society of massive inequality is a hoax so at one level it's is it isn't enlightened recognition that we really don't have a democracy right i mean i mean elections capitalism capitol we have massive inequality we have a government control by corporations in hedge fund managers andy elections are ritual that seems to suggest people the democracy works when in fact the people who are running for election for the most part of people who are in power within an enormous amount of capital money giants politics but it's not just a matter of a certain percentage of young people you know not believing in democracy in basically inhabiting happening to tell a different mindset right they could be confused about the betrayal democracy that don't that's a different thing that sets up a trail of democracy and basically they're trying to figure out how to address that you know the term white supremacist is a hot button term and many whites really object to it a end tiny he's coats we will be hearing this rating from your book america nightmare it's often said the trump has no real ideology which is not true his ideology is white supremacy in all its truculent and sanctimonious power his political career began in the advocacy see of birtherism that modern recasting old american precept the black people are not fit to be citizens of the country they built a long before birtherism trump made his worldview clear he fought to keep blacks out of his buildings according to the usa government and railed against lazy black employees black guys counting my money i hated trump wants quoted as saying they only kind of people i won't counting my money or short guys that were yarmulke has every day the triumphs of trump's campaign of bigotry presented the problematic spectacle of unamerican president's succeeding in spite of his racism and possibly because of it trump moved racism from euphemistic and plausibly deniable to be overt and freely claimed not every trump voter is a white supremacist but every trump voter felt it acceptable had the fate of the country over to one i think it's absolutely true i mean trump's native ism was on display publicly his his position on the central park five you know these young people who were that central i there were a number of young black kids who were wrongly convicted for basically assaulting and raping a white woman in central park later proven that they they were not guilty and not only to dna test but also by the fact somebody confessed even after they they were acquitted an end will reimburse were given some remuneration trump still said that they should have gone to prison and even when the trial is going on he put an ad in the new york times claiming that we need more police when he put these people in prison prison overly racist that secondly he surrounds himself with leadership positions in the white house steve bannon who is well without a question it seems to me a white supremacist steve bannon who appeared with the pen at one point in paris and said before the audience you know they'll call you a homophobe they'll call you a racist they'll call you were the centerfold you should wear like a badge i want to ask you in november two thousand sixteen being the musical hamilton was playing on broadway in when mike pence was in the audience end after the curtain call one of the actors brandon victor dixon she addressed mr pence says mr pence was scampering out and people were laughing and brewing but he addressed the issue of a quality in america 'em donald trump was outraged by this and tweeted that a mike pence can't find a safe space then that's really unfair another facet here's the language of destruction right i mean they claim that you need a safe space with the most powerful is it wouldn't hurt the meaning like term i i think that the the backstory there was you know don't raise questions that make us a comfortable you know i mean fatality earnings don't like critique little fencing skins i mean they don't wanna be held accountable and it seems to me that you know one of the things that we still have in the united states and certainly in canada is the ability of some journalists be able to strike back to raise these questions so they're not completely suture insulated and it's that lack those spaces that all of a sudden sometimes allow very this company in questions to be asked that that threatens them i'm gonna get to journalists a little bit later i i do find that interesting you know i want to get to first though there's been so much talk about americans who voted for trump an much of this focuses on as you know poorly educated white guys so not a lot of economic prospects we've heard this so much i'm not sure if that is really getting to the heart of it we have to be really careful there's a lot of information suggesting research has been done now regarding trump supporters well it'd be average trump supporter made seventy thousand dollars a year i mean that's not exactly a working class constituency right now a but i think it weaken breakdown at i've tried the breakdown trump supporters into three categories complicate this a bit right i mean first of all people who simply want security protection this i wanna limit of secure will i'm sorry i in idaho what's coming over the go over the borders you know we need more police we need law and order they express fear in terms of personal insecurities an injury that they don't think about fears of social category fear poverty no fear of climate disruption a fear of of of a it's personal you know not having actress the healthcare it's all personal right secondly it seems to me there are people who i columbia apocalyptic populace they believed at white's really under siege these at the neo nazis the most people the proud boys these these extremist who basically no had been brought from the margins of powers at the center of paul casey in trumpet savior then there's a third group that i think is really concerned about their economic security right except with the loss of jobs what i find interesting is that white women put trump in office to yeah that's not not african american women not latino white limit three things the marriott you've just mentioned i think a really important one is there's often de argument that economic disenfranchisement is really what push people into trump's camp well hi how's that explain that ninety four percent of all black people vote against trump i mean i did contradiction there that's a normal contradiction right because in many ways what people don't wanna take into consideration is racism that trump is appealing to secondly it it it it seems to me there's the rural divide right and that rural divide basically is linked mostly the questions of education entered the city writing communities right but the woman issue is really the pandora's box jimmy it it's it's off the wall you know i mean it it's it's it's just giving the level of massage that he rejects any given the deception deception i mean he office says there'll be lots of women more than i do nineteen women have accused him of some form of sexual assault nineteen woman in the age of the me too movement given what has happened to a whole range of people become close that figure they're gone right where he's like the teflon men did he say mr trump at some point i believe it was at a campaign rally this is what i mean about his support is almost hardwired he said that i could stand in the middle of fifth stabbing you in shoot someone in my supporters but still vote for me he he he symbolize is a kind of arrogance that that is something people apparently is quite suitable they find it attracted i find it attractive i mean i they were really talking about but but this particular segment of the female population of two things were talking about women who living on deprivation in the rural states who really looking for you know us the strong man and basically relatively uneducated language is important drink trump's inaugural speech fox news commentators called it muscular unifying very forceful and just masterful and charles krauthammer said that it was completely nonpartisan the fog of self delusion end denial is in full swing at cnn when historian douglas brinkley called trump's inaugural addressed not only presidential but solid and well written end the best speech trump had made in his life you know high profile celebrity oprah winfrey said in interview and without irony i just saw president elect trump with president obama in the white house and it gave me hope there were other baffling comments as well including nicolas christoph who said people should just grid their teeth give trump a chance bill gates made clear his worldview by stating on cnbc that trump had the potential to emulate jfk by a stablishment upbeat undesirable mode of leadership through innovation i think that you know big lies produce big fears and i think on critical public this is easy to manipulate and i think we're gonna really recognize that right i think that when everything's gonna be said nothing nothing can be believed then you're opening opening doors the infantilized entire population but is he capable once again of making that distinction between good and evil what matters and what doesn't around questions of justice ethics i also think that what trump does is he provides a narrative of consistency he lies so much like dribbles one set right i mean once you lie enough people will believe it i don't wanna hear the truth i wanna be entertained mhm that's far more important in the truth and i think we vastly we underestimate the power of that culture the producer kind of ignorance are kind of civic literacy a kind of refusal the come to grips with what it means to be in control of your life by being able to know something remember if you don't know something if you can't the standing issue how do you act on it and what the concept of the consequences right where the consequences of being uninformed we're the consequences of saying i don't care if he lies he could say anything you want i'm just gonna fall it's almost like well he can get away with that yeah there's this kind of yeah rejection i know you quote hannah around who writes the ideal subject patella terry in rural is not the convinced nazi but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction true and false no longer except nothing could be nothing could be more true today than than that i i mean she also said that thoughtlessness essence of fascism and she was right you know henry some people listening like say yeah but don't all government sly all governments lie but you know generally they tried to hide those lies you know those lies a shame or fear orlando consequences might be consequences they might be held accountable i mean diction lied you know but he did everything could there make sure they knew nobody knew about it you know i mean obama lied a certainly george w bush allied certainly lyndon johnson lied and got us into a war but there's always a sense it those lies were done indie interest of a politically project fact that somehow is on the side of american exceptionalism this guy is a serial liar i mean he actually is unapologetic about his lies so being a serial liar is a pragmatic issue for him i live because i need votes lie because the mobilize people so yeah this is much this is much more different from the past i'm wondering i'm sure you've heard this before why is it that the rights it seems are the kings of twitter they seem to deliver a knockout punch is there are they better street fighters you know why can't the left use humor satire mockery to engage the public further or is that a slippery slope and i'm thinking about this because recently they canadian politically thinker avi lewis said that you know you wanna fight right wing populism okay the laptops the turnout populists to with a motive messages short and sweet hard heading to the point what's your sense about that well i i have free responses to that okay but i've been thinking about i mean one is first of all you have now anybody who wants social media in anybody could use those platforms disseminate stuffed in the past is very difficult the problem with disseminate secondly they understand something they're able to bring together every right wing lunatic in the world who has a different issue from haiti women through hating jews hitting bless all under the mantle of a fascist politics that basically allows these different groups to work with each other the left doesn't have that the left has a lot of silos you know it has it has a lot of a very special issue kinds of politics which is okay i mean the left certainly allowed us through these very specific set of issues but they've taken up there's understand the range of oppressions that operating aside and i think that's fabulous on transgendered writes a climate change to the core to etcetera etcetera and the inequality to the one percent you know occupy put the language of inequality on on on on the map right but the real issue here is how do you build affirmed those differences and at the same time bring them together under a larger umbrella which specter in fact they're building a broad base social movement and i think the right is so much more capable at the moment at the moment in doing that buggy other side of this mary and you would know this better than i do is that when the left speech they don't get a lot of attention but when the rights beach norma's amongst the tension enormous amounts of protection you know they show up in new york and they have a rally in it it is sort of doing the heil hitler salute over the new york times front page but i think also though the right has this kind of it seems to me i don't know if this is historical but they have they declare they make declarations there's a confidence with that where the left often end up being school am arms shaking their finger and saying that's not nice that's not right at one is more attractive because it seems more confident and the other one it's like oh you know you're a downer you know you're always telling us wherever going wrong when i think of that i think it's interesting when i i think the right but strictly has a platform they don't consult they declare they declare but i but i and i and i think the left is constantly members have been progressive people on the left rightly so you know they understand a democracy is messy but they're always reacting instead of standing there and just making declarations i'm not sure how like they're always on their back he'll when you when you're operating from a position of being powerless and you're fighting against oppression i mean the first language the language of critique night language of hope and and i and i think that what the right has implicit in its message is a language enormously dystopia in notion of hope declaring what they want that's just a powerful formative culture for fraction mhm whereas is it seems to me that when you get mid down million the language of critique and not the language of possibility thank you you're messing stent tens of dissipate quickly you have demonstrations sessions but not movements the right has movements and not just demonstrations right and i and i and i think that's really the conceptual worthy everybody is that's worthy energy is i'm paul kennedy end on cbc radio one and sirius xm you're listening to ideas fascism often sits it's on the fringes of many cultures but when a shift towards the politicals center alarm start going off in recent years those alarms have escalated former secretary of state madeleine albright and former head of the cia john brennan at both said did america's lurching down the path towards bashes these warnings are coming from both the political left end the right in this ideas episode producer mary o'connell sits down with ramon scholar henry's you're route to explore the crumbling realities he sees in flirting with fascism america's new path i wanna tell you this story henry 'em a couple of years ago before the election i traveled to baltimore to explore be malays that had settled on the african american community before the election end this was around a mysterious charged the police killing of freddie gray was a big story in baltimore and i'm going to interview a young african american man he never been in trouble with the law before in fact he was a city of baltimore employee but cheering the demonstrations about the killing freddie gray 'em he was caught on videotape on top of a police car you had one of those orange construction pylon 'em any other broke the windshield of the police vehicle or hit it anyway he was captured on videotape tape you were charged he was in prison for about six months and i'm gonna be there when he was released and you know it was interesting because some his mother came on the phone and she said why would he talked to you right what what would he be getting out of this his life is ruined what you're gonna do for him he's never gonna work again in this study end you know i said i don't know it probably won't get him a job if i interviewed him them 'em i'm thinking though telling the telling of the story might be empowering for him but i'm not gonna lie i'm not gonna tell you more than that in some we didn't end up doing the interview you do you need we did not end up doing being chicken but it really struck me this kind of your with the media elite or you're what these stablishment or you have power we have non there's no point well i think what's the trajectory both the story is that his mother was unable the translator private tragedy into a public consideration mhm and say hey look they come after my son nick and come after yards right i mean what we're really talking about here is a form of lawlessness that central to any fascist state that's what's really going on here this is not just a personal story this is a public story you know this is story about the collapse of politico justice story about these ongoing a rise of the punishing state that's what the story is about and what's tragic here is that because it just locks people into themselves you know they blame each other they blame themselves they have no self came out and they give up they give up i mean that the inability the translators not just a bad rhetorical move and social formity politicisation that's a prescription for being invisible it'd be voiceless is the pause and remember powell always does everything you can to make it self invisible right interesting on this notion of the violence you in american society if you look at the number of american troops killed in afghanistan and iraq between two thousand and one and two thousand twelve so pretty much a decade that figure is about six thousand five hundred american soldiers the number of american women murdered by their intimate partner during that same period is almost twelve thousand that's almost double the number of soldiers killed so that's why i'm wondering what that does to to west society i mean there's a couple of things at work here right one is a toxic masculinity that's institutionally framed right into the culture we're not just talking about attitudes you're talking about it architecture that's different a woman a senior second class citizens you know women's rights of seniors threatening their if their particular two white men on the other side of this is that women are in easy target for kind of masculinity is it finds itself in opposition to the feminine and then opposition is is also apply to gaze into a whole range of groups there there'd be feminine is the worst insult isn't it is right that masculinity is in this is of what it means to be a woman that woman at threatening men mhm that once again in white men of the victims and then women basically getting jobs and they're getting educated and they being put in positions that are basically taking away the rights at white men have the notion of loss the notion of victimhood that is certainly a toxic mix mitch for a kind of massage any that blossoms into the kind of violence that we're now seeing wage against women in the united states because it's idiological sanctioned at the top let's make america great again you think that is has anything to say about women on that note in terms of going back in time i mean some argue and i don't know where you are on this that that you know trump supporters these white men the politics of resentment that they've they've always been there they've always been twenty to thirty percent of the american population but they've never had a voice so powerful represent them andrew you know it's interesting because i sometimes think of archie bunker right remember member him at nineteen seventies i went online the other day among many of the shows there's one called the coons are coming i i'm not i'm not making this up and i remember as a kid did you know watching on archie bunker end being kind of horrified by him laughing at him but i would think many were laughing with him you know that she faces of you know there may be true but but i think that what we generally understood here is that it could be said because it was done in the name of satire that's very different from saying something that's not being done in the name of satire right what's being done to actually reproduce the literal miss of what it means to be a racist celebrate that i mean archie bunker had a cover undercover was this is a show put together by a progressive director of right writer who want to expose racism in in in in may visible the kind of language that he used and i think what we see you know there's of course very different as richard evans the renowned historian of modern germany observed democracies die in different ways but what they often have in common is they fall is the shift of violence to the center of politically and civic life do you think it would take henry for trump supporters to turn against him what do you have any caught on video having sex with a child that might a that i'm not being so no no i i mean it would take it would seem to me the most egregious moral unpolitical violation one that were so indisputable that you could no longer simply relegated to the level of fake news fritz is taking bribes from butte having sex a videotape emerges in which when he was in russia would be a machine hotel the hotel he did something that you know he's on tape a i i i mean you know when trump said as you mentioned earlier in the program you know i could stand and fifth avenue and shoot somebody in people which still follow me i mean we're talking about a level of devotion to the strong man that is is is just part of what patella tarian dictators do i mean that's their base after dark and that's just fucking trade i mean we shouldn't be surprised by this we should be alarmed by it would not surprise do you do you buy that maybe twenty thirty percent of americans have always had this authoritarian greek do you buy that they're having a moment having a moment you call in a number of thinkers in your book america nightmare one of them of course is george orwell an you mentioned and that strangely after mr trump was inaugurated orwell's nineteen eightyfour surge to number one on amazon and the usa in canada what george orwell had to say about today's america he would probably say the he got it wrong he couldn't realize how bad it could possibly be that the dystopia he described has now been surpassed in the same way that the east german scott sees now say that they couldn't they couldn't imagine having the level the twos the level surveillance that now exist in the surveillance state on the in the last few years i mean i i think that expectations that the dystopia nightmare that she had talked about a not only hasn't materialized but materialized in a way that we would be unimaginable in a in an alleged democracy that's the key right a and then you have what he talked about you have the rise of the surveillance state right you have you have daboh thank you have double sank doubles think on the world well were somewhat coded i mean that's where he would have been surprised i mean he would have been a long by the degree to which you didn't have to mystify the level of domination he couldn't have imagined emerging culture immediacy and sensationalism that overtook american society he could have imagined that i mean i think his notion of dystopia aired on the side of satire all well mhm right hey dystopia in vision which clearly satiric whereas we find ourselves in a in a dystopia today it's not about friction and now also another person this is through aldous huxley lengthy idea of course that citizens becomes juba five through immediate pleasures sensation gratification and you know and i wondered about this a couple of times you know trump is sensational he's distracting he's disarming end you do get pulled in and i was thinking if he was a teacher in my daughter's middle school classroom henry i bet those kids would love going to school you never know what the teachers going to say i think they're young children or attracted to something that's imaginative and playful and you know stimulating then you never know what's gonna happen in grabs rich and god's you're attention but i but i think that what that speaks to outside of the way in which those very pedagogical twos could be used in terrible terrible reasons right it also speaks to a society that now has employed employed a form of public pedagogical that is all spectacle it's all showmanship right it's it's empty politics of any meaning because politics meany suggest that people have an insight and some power into controlling how politics works now it's all entertainment it reminds me of the title of neil postman spoke amusing ourselves to death yarn jocular that makes it very easy for society to basically controller there's this interesting line henry between entertainment and then there's this kind of totalitarian language you really saw the come to the fore i think sharing be emmy awards in september of two thousand seventeen when the former white house press secretary sean spicer was there and i'm thinking okay now i'm kind of confused you know this was the man who coined the term alternative facts creating this house of lies andy here he was at a podium during one of the biggest audiences in the world i think emmy awards and by the way stephen coal bear who was it was actually his idea to bring sean spicer 'em to be emmy awards and i mean stephen cold barest this guy who is savagely critique beat the trump administration but there he was using sean spicer as this kind of funny gas you know it it it it seems to suggest there all that really matters is showmanship the show must go on the show must go on i the spectacle is more important than the truth training you is more important informing you using it well on that note it was interesting end it's in your book as well you're right that trump has been very good for media corporations the former head of cbs leslie moonves said are ratings at cbs are basically sky high he said trump may not be good for america but he's damned good first cbs as he put it quote the money is rolling in this is going to be a very good year for us it's a terrible thing to say but bring it on donald keep going go ahead that was probably the most 'em illustrator example that journalists in this in the sense a more seduced by the needs of profits then they are by the search for truth and i and i think that when you when you become seduced by money you've done become seduced by power this is not the say that we don't have some really good journalist you know the new york times that some incredible stuff the cnn i'm just shocked compiling washington post cnn i mean he's a small pockets in some ways a fighting scifi in battle but i think what he made clear in this case was the profits more important than the destruction of the country are remarkable article by former conservative radio talk show host charlie sykes argues that over the last few decades right wing media have played a major role in discrediting end de legitimizing the fact based media in doing so the conservative media have destroyed much of the rights immunity the false information according to sykes conservative including his self created in you post fact politically culture that has become so powerful but even when the trump's had been caught lying they believe they could do so with impunity because this will pollute and discredit other independent sources of information now robert oh paxton in hits a seminal adamy of fascism wasn't looking to provide a precise definition of fascism but understand the conditions that enabled fascism to work can you talk about that yeah yeah i i this is a major debate and i think it's it's in some ways it's it's a it's distracting debate in the united states i mean they argument goes like this well this is he using hitler so therefore you can't talk about fascism right right and he's not hitler hitler now but the point is we're not talking about whether fascism can only be defined in terms of whether it mimics precisely the elements of fascism that we saw in the past what were from another country another time were really arguing is what is it fascist politics look like because fascism is not something that is it as a the only exist at a specific moment at a specific historical moment it's also a set of attitudes that basically get reprogram reef fashion and emerging different ways i mean whether we're talking about iran to whether we're talking about sheldon woolen whether talking about whole range of novelist or you know even fdr secretary of state who said hey look you know fascism comes in different forms it crystallizes in emergencies emerges in ways that are unique to a particular period whether we're talking about white supremacy the logic of disposability ultra nationalism militarism the suppression of dissent i mean what we really have to ask ourselves is worthy echoes of the past telling us about forces that are emerging today that allows the learn from history into be alarmed by virtue of what they suggest about what a fascist politics looks like in a different historical moment i mean madeleine albright wrote a book about fascism in the united states a you know the former head of the cia has talked about the possibility of fascism in the united states so i got a little worried you know when i see people who were somewhat involved in creating the conditions that allow trump to come to power now start claiming there the forefront of the resistance against fascism right kind of like a silicon valley pinera thing of cell phones for children are really bad all right you can't yeah yeah yeah the market with them fascism is a moment trump is a symptom that actually he is i mean you know the freshest politics will continue after trump is deeply embedded in the culture itself in the society isn't at one point they american government described hitler as a moderate before they really started paying attention to what he had to oh absolutely i mean you agreed noam chomsky about this is just brilliant basically he was a clown who could control once hitler hitler once once he was elected and secondly he was a bulwark against the the communist no better have a fresh set of communist right now that is a long tradition in a stretch to say the least right it is the essence of fascism to have no single fixed form it naturally takes on the colors and textures of each nation it infects in italy it is bombastic and neoclassical in spain catholic and religious in germany violence and romantic in england it's formless paternalistic there is democratic through us well moseley so it's no surprise the american face the fascism would take on the form of celebrity television now 'em paxton this historian robert paxton end timothy snyder historians of fascism they've argued that trumpism is not comparible we just talked about that to nazi ism 'em paxton in particular argues that the trump regime is closer to include talk crecy dented fascism 'em but then others hanging around and sheldon will end of course argued that the dangerous conditions that produce patella tarian ism are still with this 'em now others say trump they argue is other is shammar right wing populists simply a reactionary so there's a lot in there on the right end the left how do we wade through all of this is he a clown a fascist reactionary just a good old fashioned capitalist on steroids you won't you really wanna take this question seriously and ask yourself you know what what did they elements of a fascist regimes that we see reemerging today all over the world the claim that the people in power the people who really the victims their heroes end victims i hear oh yeah yeah he's out there go down the heroes in the says if they're gonna go back to a pass resurrect a passer which we won victims right that we really were in control we knew what we were doing this this this kind of apocalyptic dowager that haunts the fascist mind because fascist politics at score is the discourse klein right right discuss the kind of victimhood in the discourse of enemies and so i think it seems to me that when you look at that trajectory in history and if we're gonna learn from history then i think we should be rightly concerned not about whether he's hitler what about whether a fascist politics is emerging in a different form you know a jason stanley says oh this we're in the midst of a fascist politics but it's not fascism will actually chasing it it's a different form of fascism timothy snyder says no i'm i'm afraid we're we're we're in we're in a moment of fascism right he gets it right but i think it i mean there's there there were people who wanna believe mary and i may be terribly wrong on this there historians there thera titians academics who is so fearful of making the claim or articulating the notion that capitalism mobilizes the passions that may fascism possible why they're afraid because they don't wanna give up on capitalism why because they believe leave that basically it's the essence of democracy they don't wanna talk about socialism they don't wanna say capitalism is not democracy and fascist politics you see end point of a savage capitalism socialism is the bogeyman socialism is man justice you know push hitler in power is chosen standpoint of that logic is put in there in power because he's a clown controller put trump in power will will control and you touched on it just a little bit earlier 'em this is happening in parts of europe eastern europe illiberal democracy and you kind of authoritarianism we've heard quite a bit about the hungarian prime minister viktor orban who says you know we want to replace decaying western democracy with the no liberal state we know that he was able to convince voters in april twenty eighteen that a horde of muslim migrants will descend upon them that the hungarian born liberal billionaire george soros and the european union bureaucrats for coming to get everybody anti one he won his third term a if you look at what's happened there in the media in three years in twenty fifteen mr or bone in his friends owned about twentythree media outlets now they control five hundred it's astonishing journalist there are unemployed there many are desperate 'em one journalist explained look at this is not russia no one is getting shot here in hungary but everyone when things don't lose their job and that's enough in three years i mean it's fascism which takes on the pretense of human face bits of humanize fascism when i know we're not gonna put you in a concentration camp or not gonna you're not gonna kill you're not gonna just gonna give you a security but it for that security you have to give up certain freedoms if you want to challenge you went through job i mean he makes a statement that's really amazing he says the state is not defined by democratic values but by its economic and cultural addressed he's interested go among a growing number of course of his own followers i mean what he's saying is that illiberal democracy works because it's about mobilizing resources on the part of people who control those resources the financially we know what's best for you we're gonna make you happy we're gonna make sure that you have to shut out but you have to shut up you have to shut up you have to give up individual rights and stop talking about democracy stop talking about democratic values talk about economic security and cultural homogeneous eighty right in poland we have the best illiberal democracy as well a in brazil i know that the new precedent at one point during the campaign set of his female opponent you're too to ugly to ever be raped we have in the philippines did do tat day regime who i believe has murdered the thirty fourth lawyer who actually criticized his regime so it's and it's not just western there's eastern europe there's you know brazil there's the philippines there's a number of places right but but what you said about this is you know while you could point to the changing conditions in europe a london self this kind of authoritarianism what we fail to realize you're not presently united states now becomes a model for these people so into taught that says you know look a okay a lot of people will be chosen the jaguars mr trump supports that and so you have these dictators in various countries quoting trump in order to justify injustices that they're promoting i mean trump everybody knows that trump loves dictators you know he he he criticizes trudeau embraces be taught day right you must have military parades it's hard to look at this and not believe that we have ended a period in which fascist politics taking over the united states the strategic adversary especially the fascism you know so you know sheds an everyday behavior the fascist and the causes us to love power to desire the very thing that dominates exploits i think they wished to cova shame saying is a subjective dimension fascism that we have to dress the world capable of being produced in that we have to fight pharaon subjectivity it's not just given to us and we have to be aware we have to be aware we have to be informed you know it's easy it'd be seduced by power so the struggle is both internal and external it's both of our own subjectivity in her own desires and it's also about the realities of power and how they exist outside of ourselves it's a struggle to redefine endlessly it never ends right one that in some way diminishes the worst impulses and rush rush the best and i think in that sense he's right i don't know this might sound like a strange question henry but you know i wonder if like children adult's like to be scared or maybe fear is prime ordeal and they're attracted to the person who's scare both scares them and then says i have the solution vitals says that there's migrant hordes in a caravan coming to invade america but were gonna stop them so they create the fear and then they say i can save you i mean these are fairy tales children like fairy tales i'm just wondering what you have to stay up on fire is learned mhm you know and what particular interest me about fears learn is sending a wake up the pleasure quotient when it's pleasurable shift because pleasurable the hate you know that it's energizer under pleasure quotient remember this is not just about the discourse the trump it's kind of a an emotional addiction diction because it's like an electric current that runs through the society it's hard not to feel the charge right right what do you make of the midterm elections what does that tell you about america i think america is at war with itself and i think the elections proved that but i think the senate is filled with vichy republicans i think they understand the senate in the united states you have to understand what happened in france after it was invaded you had a government that came to power the basically was on the appointed by the nazis and it wasn't collusion with the nazis and supported the nazis in engaging in respect axe i think you have the senate is basically a wrecking that's a wrecking ball for democracy so how do you not put a blade share rest you know it's it's it's an important question i mean i i i think in the mission of despair you know there's always they're always people who mobilized there's always elements of resistance these groups do this thinking about what the future might look like that doesn't mimic the precedent and i think we see it i i have a lot of faith in young people young people trying to figure it out in a in a long by the fact that they've been written out of the scripted democracy right i mean these young people realise in some fundamental way that race that the categories that are being used as humanized people don't apply to them they don't buy them you know they're not homophobic they're not basically racist a you know they they the specter of fascist politics is now very visible people people about the lose something in london lose their freedoms it tends to mobilize people who who all of a sudden say look i'm sorry i'm not giving up my freedom of security and i'm not buying the lies anymore i mean sending troops to the border claiming that the a caravan that's six hundred miles away is about to invade the united states they don't more troops to the border then existed in afghanistan now it's a matter of not just demonstrating against fascist politics it's a matter of creating a broad based movement the basically stop this i think in time this'll happen i mean i i don't believe that democracy dead and united states i just think it's on trial i on ideas you've been listening to flirting with fascism america's new path it was produced by mary o'connell you can find a link to this program on our website cbc dot ca slash ideas were of course you can always get are podcast you can also stream all of our episodes on the radio player canada app and the cbc radio special thanks to director marshall currie the clip from his documentary night at the garden

america george orwell president assault senate mcmaster university professor henry donald trump roosevelt canada new york madison square garden paul kennedy joe cfo steven quinn china united states three years
Highway Hi-Fi 90: Bagpipers at the Gates of Dawn

Pantheon

1:50:22 hr | 9 months ago

Highway Hi-Fi 90: Bagpipers at the Gates of Dawn

"For seventy years. The world's top recording studios and concert stages have relied. On ak g microphones to craft. Today's biggest hits a cagey. Lyra brings legendary cousteau engineering to versatile. Usb microphone that delivers in highest quality audio today everyone is adjusted to higher resolution television. The same must be done with audio the k. g. lyra microphone is a big step in that direction. Whether you're recording a podcast interview your next spotify single or just wanna be heard clearly on your next. Virtual meeting liars innovative aka g capsule array adapts to your performance to record pristine audio with a k. g. Lyra you'll be up running in no time. No matter your experience level it just works right out of the box create and capture your music podcasts. And videos with class leading. Audio quality by legendary ak g acoustic engineering from the comfort of your home. Welcome to the highway. Hi fi podcast. Where week oh track by track through the underbelly of music. History using research in trivia the roots of our obsession with vinyl records. I'm joe am ryan congratulations. You found the internet finest podcast for music. That really blows today. We're gonna start off with some trivia. Non law am our first trivia round. Tonight is going to be the audio round. And i have seven clips of music to play. And what i would like for you to do is to tell me the name of the artist the name of the song and the theme that ties them all together. Okay simple enough. It is here we go track one track. Two crack three cents to made his head. Never listen to of track. Four own Track five brax. Six see philosophy. Miss brek seven so all right. So how do you feel about that one. That's a good deal. I don't feel very good about it. But i got to. I've got to fairly confident on. But what about the theme. Based on the two i have. I guess i'm a theme but we'll see and we're going to play this clip again at the end of the show. We're gonna play those clips again at the end of this show. Yes so natural so smooth. It's like we missed a beat man for today. I have the non audio round. And i've got a title for this trivia. It's cold haggling with haggas so as we were researching For this episode about bagpipes. I noticed there is a lot of bands that have the word haggas in the name of the band really. Oh yes so. I pulled pulled a bunch of them and then i made up a bunch of fake wants so your job is to simply tell me. Is this a real bad name or a fake band name okay. That sounds good. You ready yet. Sounds it easier. The needing haggis significantly easier than haggas. Alright bad haggas real. That was a real band very good band haggas. that's fake. That is fake though. Haggis was truly band. There for awhile all right. Black market access. I say fake. No that's real. Here's a band called black market. Haggas say real. And then i heard you snicker snicker the real ones. I had the fake ones. Because they're both stupid. Your tail works both ways. Canned haggas real that israel where good connery's low-hanging haggas fake fake enter the haggis fake. That's real. that is the number one haggas band according to google. If you look up pakistan's enter the haggis few gas into this is like the top Find for a while. They changed their name to exit the haggas better than the haggis exiting. You know which was worse entering or exiting right hunted haggas. Fake the fake haggas propolis. What does that second word. I'll say this fake. I made that up. Okay the hag is candy band fake. That's real okay. Pipe in acas. I'll say fake. That's fake. i made that one. Haggas horns fake. That's a real man. Haggi rampant fake. That's real human human hagous. Keep wanting to say real to all these. But i'm going to say fake and real. There's metro band called human. Aga's you what do they do. You know anything about them. Though edit look up any of these bands more than the name you want to get on anybody's list for weird google searches. We've got some suspect. Hager search search is coming from the fbi circling my house right now. All maddest hagous real. It's fake right and the whole band real. Nope that's fake but you sure are not very good with your haggas bans. You got more wait. That was in. Spent a good hour today looking at pakistan. I can only find eight. I mean i thought that was a lot. I mean that's seven more. I figured there would have been fun. I like researching. Haggis watched videos of people eating habits for the first time. Strange way to spend your sunday morning but you know have you ever had aga's no no i have not have you not that i remember. I guess i would. I would probably eat it. Well that was a admiral effort. The old haggas quiz snout. We're going to or toss it back to the turntable talk Chaos he makes me think of tennis like andre. Agassi are just gave him to me. I don't believe that just came to you. I think he would save that one. Thirteen thirteen year. Old joe writing and one of his notebooks agassi. It's going to be appropriate. Some point yeah. Maybe i gotta hold onto that one. I've only got one chance to make that work. Everybody's talking me. I don't care where only the lose slightly before they were to form the most influential underground band. Of all time. Lou reed and john cale paid a visit to syracuse university. To hang out with a young sterling morrison read dragged his sullen-looking wells roommate up to his old stomping grounds to get out of there shithole lower lower east side apartment for a weekend. Take in some of the sights sounds and substances that. A nineteen sixty four campus could offer and to recruit morrison to join the primitives. The manufactured pickwick records band that had recently released the viola drenched novelty dance song satire theon ostrich kale prided himself on his downtown experimental tendencies and was unsure about taking in a college student into a little rock and roll band but lew assured him that sterling was on the level. The dormitory was sweltering as the three down cheap beers and talked about their favorite deep up and jazz musicians. Suddenly through an open window there was a faint sound of marching boots and the hut one hut two chanted cases read looked out the window and smirk at the syracuse. Rotc marching down the walkway by the dorm. He scoffed at the syncopated rows of gi joe haired vietnam fodder and nudged his head of kale as if to say. Get a lotta these assholes. Kale had an idea in the room. They're just happened to be a set of dilapidated bagpipes lying about left thereby some random school weirdo. Friend of sterling's kale grab the unwieldy. Instrumented moved over to the window where reid was sitting leaned out the window and waited for the parading core to give right below the dorm dome. The ungodly loud blast resonated from above startling. The young army cadets they ducked broke rank one of the cadets fell to the ground his pants split slightly which caused middle rhythmic ox of urine say gently in the morning sun. Few koets nearby snickered at the bumbling soldiers kale continued to produce. Experamental sounds as the irritated sullen embarrassed. Mercer's looked up regrouped and continued on your debit. Laurie sterling look sheepish. Breathe smuggling sipped at his bottle kale stopped triumphantly around the dorm room before finally releasing the pipes from his lips to let out a rare yet. Grand guffaw shortly after sterling would leave school and move into the same building his kale read and time impaired drummer and cosmic lease to form the earliest incarnation of the velvet underground. Aband- that like the surprise bagpipe attack was no stranger to aggressive droning and attacking both conservative values and gender specific dress codes. Bagpipes have long been confounding and terrifying soldiers. In fact for centuries they had been considered a weapon of war unlike bugles drums. Which simply use sounds to instruct rally our own troops the bagpipes deafening roars. Were used to intimidate the opposition confused them and remind them of their oncoming demise. The sound of war death and funerals mortifying and morbid james reid was the bagpiper. The armies of the failed jacobite rebellion of seventeen forty five after he was taken prisoner read claimed he should avoid execution as he carried no weapon in the battle the british empire officials fearing the stirring effects it had on scottish insurgents and petrifying effects it had on its own. Soldiers disagreed with reads assessment of the sweet innocence of the bagpipe and outlaw. The instrument on the battlefield read was hanged drawn and quartered which is very similar to how bagpipes are made around the start of the great war. Nineteen fourteen the english and canadian forces had realized the un godly powers of the bagpipe and created. Regiment's pipers to play inspiring tunes in blood-curdling battle songs in the trenches all over europe often they would sound out rallying points for lost fighting men in the mustard gas fog in the dark of night they were nicknamed by the german says the dare hula the ladies from hell for their distinctive tartan kilson devil-may-care ferocity. The pipers would lock along. The frontlines lead divisions over the top of trenches armed with nothing but their trustee instrument as her gunned down at a horrifying rate like the world's easiest carnival. Game of the twenty five hundred war pipers in the first great war said over a thousand were killed in action and probably about forty bagpipes are still droning. Even to this day because of the almost assured death sentence of being a battlefield piper. The english army had determined that bagpipers needed to remain camps and stopped all bagpipers from playing in the field during world war two. there was one lone exception scottish. Private william millan stormed the beaches normandy on d day. Millon was the personal paper for commander of first special service brigade. Lord love it love. It said he'd be damned break. Traditions and told me that the bagpiper ban was an english regulation and that they were scottish. So it didn't apply to them when the light infantry sword beach. The doors of the boat crashed into the sand. The sound of the highland laddy could be heard amongst their tillery and gunfire millan heroically played his comrades. Dropped all around him. He later claims captured. German sniper told him that they simply just couldn't bring themselves to shoot him because he looked like a madman on that beach slowly marching through the surf with enormous bleeding sack mechanism with protuding appendages. Practically acting as a target like he'd risen from the water with tartan squid atop a shoulders at the german showed no mercy to anyone beside millan. Still he tried to comfort the fall boys writhing in pain though they probably would have preferred a medic som- or action but survived the war. The feet made more amazing when he revealed he followed scottish tradition and refused to wear underwear under his kilt. His sack mechanisms succeeded unimpeded. Bagpipes are a sonorous and ceaseless instrument almost comically so the traditional scottish bagpipe has the loudest amplified instrument known to man sorry yoko decibel levels range upwards of one hundred ten which puts them far closer to thunderclaps in power tools than bno's in oboe bows and at the deafening sound. Doesn't get you then. The constancy of its noise certainly will. The chanter of bagpipe is open. Which means that once piper as used the blow stick to fill the bag the instrument cannot and will not be silenced. Until all the air is released the spectacular implacable multidimensional soundscape made by a stand of pipes are typically more unleashed than controlled. In fact it requires technical planning to create an illusion of articulation. Intone accents in essence the player benz to the wheel of the instrument. Not the other way around. It's an anti saruman as james reid. Bill millin and john. Kale can all attest. The bagpipe is a fierceful musical weapon. Power seems to be a tempting inclusion to engorge the depths of songcraft yet there have been so few popular musical artists who have attempted to integrate bagpipes into their songs even fewer who used bagpipes on a regular basis on today's episode. We're going to explore the tenuous relationship between the sack and the song to find the brave souls who marched into the mainstream with nothing but pipes pride provocations and piercing pandemonium. We are going to lift the kilt on one of the world's most maligned and misunderstood music. Makers were going up kilt so take a deep breath and blow as hard as you can squeeze your bag tightly finger. Your chanter nimbly and don't stop until you or your audience passes out because we're starting to tartan today. Bagpipes in popular music versions of what we would recognize his bagpipes date back to the first century. Bc in egypt and precursors far back as four thousand bc traditionally. They were made from whole animal skins which were turned inside out with the pipes being stuffed into the leg neck holes those pipes which were called tibia or just hollowed out leg bones. Thankfully no part of the animals wasted the scots even turn the animal runoff into a culinary. Bounty that is haggas. The bagpipes of food. It was the romans who brought the bagpipes to scotland. Over two thousand years ago the romans used bagpipes alarm clocks to announce the slaves that the work had begun in nero of roman leaders was playing the bagpipes. Not the fiddle as he watched rome. Burn on the way to bringing pipes to scotland. The romans spread them throughout europe africa. Asian like they were hot pipe. std's versions of the bagpipe. Include bogaert gator. Italy's am pug nina rushes. Linka germany's bach. North africa's sucre india's mouchak francis corner moose and canada's getty lee the scottish great highland bagpipes as what we most identify as the archetypal bagpipe with a bag of blowpipe. A chanter to play the melody in three drone pipes tenor one base wants. the bagpipe. made it to scotland. No one is quite sure how became such the treasured national instrument that it is. Today it certainly had appealed both low and high bornes traveling minstrels performing feast in fares while pipes were used as an honorific device in the clan system to demonstrate power important. It was in fifteen forty nine at the battle of pinkie clue when the bagpipes cemented their place as scottish weapon of destruction the bagpipes booming moans replaced puny trumpet calls as beard up to ten miles away to rally troops even over the usual battle roar since then bagpipes for the most beloved musical divisive the scots and irrevocably linked with their abnormal sense of decorum only rivaled by their pete infested liquor their piercing fabric choices and log that was once mistaken for a dinosaur. The bagpipes are perhaps the least emotional instrument in the world. That is unless you're the sort that gets amped up listening to the dial up modem tone. Pipes are typically reserved for the most formal of occasions like weddings funerals. Coronations battles and toyota. Don's making it a fairly hard sell. In the realm of popular music very view babies have been made to three piper rendition of amazing grace and the ones that were conceived. Well they didn't turn out so great looking at you. Dahmer classical musicians scoffed at the notion of including the dole quavering folk instruments in their works of great art. Though mozart's dad leopold did have a song called peasants wedding that included apart for the pipes and the hurt gertie basically the eighteenth century chicken dance modern classical composers like sir peter maxwell davies shaun davey and the satirical pd q. Bach have shoehorned in the bagpipes but for the most part bagpipes are left alone on their island of dissonance. So with the high grounds and lowlands of music cut off. It would take an exceptionally brave man to tear down the strongly fortified gates of sensibility to allow the waves of deafening drones to breach popular music. Time to talk about the elephant in the room or is that what we've been doing the whole time. The most prominent bagpipe est popular music through the twentieth century. That's saying quite a bit is easily rufus harley harley started playing jazz fairly early age twelve growing up in philadelphia where he spent most of his life he played tenor sax. Some pretty solid player but being pretty solid tenor sax player. In the late fifties and early sixties wasn't nearly good enough harley saw and heard sax players like dexter gordon sonny rollins john coltrane sonny state. And i'm sure plenty of others. Needless to say shirt talent of these group of musicians made harleys playing sound lackluster. He started looking for a new instrument to play in the early sixties. But nothing was really calling to him. It says if he needed a very specific noise to reach him near the end of nineteen. Sixty three harley. Most americans watched the funeral of john kennedy. Tv the thing that struck harley in the head during that procession was the playing of the black watch bagpipe band. The black watch had been on tour in the us played the white house only a few days before the kennedy assassination. The two events are unrelated. Probably for the funeral. Jackie kennedy asked the black watch back to play from the white house to the cathedral of saint matthew. The apostle nine members of the black watch performed four songs. The black watch had been one of the infantry troops mentioned earlier formed an eighteen eighty one they served and fought in dozens of battles around the world. They were also soldiers and not just bagpipers though you might call them. Natural born killers harley was entranced in started telling his friends all about his dream of using the bagpipes to play jazz music. A friend spots bagpipes in the window of a pawnshop and told rufus all about it they were a hundred and twenty dollars harley ran to the pawnshop scooped up the pipes spending his mortgage money on them. In a later interview harley recalled the pawnbroker thought it was crazy. In fact every musician in philadelphia thought it was crazy over the next six months hardly practiced and found a way to modify the sound of the bagpipe so that it could fit within jazz backdrop record. Daniel goldmark explained in his essay slightly left of center that harley tuned his drones the pipes that produce harmonizing notes to be flat a switch from the instruments. More common tuning so that he'd be able to play with other jazz musicians. The bagpipe chanter also presented a problem. This pipe played with two hands provides the melody but it only plays nine notes saxophone. Played by any of the giants at that time played thirty notes and a trumpet. Forty hardly wanted to accomplish that same effect with just the nine once. He felt like he'd been able to accomplish that. He made attempts to get gigs. He was twenty seven. No one had heard of him and he would walk from club to club selling himself as jazz. Bagpiper people thought. It was all a gimmick club. Owners told him to era phone home. It was in nineteen sixty five that joel dorn in atlantic. Anr guy heard harley and thought he'd be worth bringing into atlantic for an album during had been affiliate dj but was hired on by atlantic in nineteen sixty four. When he signed he were law suggests flutist during produce. The first record by laws and thought harley would make a great follow up. Guess he had type doran continued to have an amazing career producing albums by roland. Kirk yusef lateef. Gary burton max roach and most famously. Roberta flack during recalled in two thousand eight interview. When asked about the first rufus harley album the bagpipe record took off. Now i took off. I mean it sold five six thousand copies but for jazz album by unknown artists who won who played. Bagpipes was a big deal. Introducing the bagpipes of jazz instrument at the time wasn't such a crazy idea. It was around the same time the jazz albums rabin produced by harpist. Dorothy ashby and saxophonists yusef lateef. Who was experimenting with. Asian and middle eastern influences harley released four albums on atlantic between nineteen sixty five and nineteen seventy his. I was called bagpipe. Blues at featured a mix of traditional scottish songs spirituals show tunes and original but only three tracks have bagpipes on them. Which made some people think that dohrn who produced the album thought harley was just a novelty act on other tracks harley plays flute soprano and tenor sax harleys next album scotch and soul nineteen sixty five only had three tracks out of seven with bagpipes. Indeed three years later a much more confident and stronger-sounding harley released a tribute to courage this album featured more bagpipe playing in a strong social conscience that took hold of harley for the rest of his alike it was harley's final album on atlantic in nineteen seventy called king queens that prove to people that he could really play jazz with the bagpipes. This is the best album of his career features. The best lineup ever worked with to montego joe played congas which at a latin feel to the sound along with him. Guitarist era gale pianist. Richard t. electric basis. Chuck rainey and drummer jimmy. Johnson round out the band. Those players have combined for more than two thousand albums in their careers. Jimmy johnson even played with fellow philadelphian sound raw for this album. The bagpipes are the lead instrument on six of the seven tracks. It's a great album from start to finish We're gonna hear more about that a little later. The next album harley released a great soul jazz album featuring the hammond b three organ. The best of all the organs which is played by bill mason. Who's the same guy who likes it up on rusty. Bryant's fire eater album as well. The album called recreation of the gods was released on records. Here's the track melita which has captured the year of quite a few. Dj's over the years success man. That song is so good. It really isn't seems like it's a lot different than the king queens album. Just because there is a lot of almost psych soul jazz and latin on that king queens album done than this one was just soul jazz almost exclusively really good considerably more funky to hammond it's bagpipe. Funk soul jazz. I mean nothing like after that album. There wasn't another release under harley's name until nineteen eighty eight. He spent the rest of the seventies playing. Live sometimes touring with sonny rollins even appearing on his nineteen seventy four album cutting edge and in nineteen eighty two. He played on laurie anderson song sweaters from her album. Big science i no longer a in nineteen ninety four. He believed it on the title track of the roots album. Do you want more to emcees again. The original vision of individual leverage. What visionary individual like to watch dermatologists the drop in the north. Southport oppy monopoly. We tried to find more connections between rufus harley and son wrong. They were both based in the same neighborhood of germantown philadelphia at the same time. An played at least one festival. Together and nineteen eighty-seven a dvd was released. That had been taped during the washington. Dc cap city