6 Episode results for "Rene Duress"
Facebook shouldnt be surprised its groups were overrun with conspiracies
"This marketplace podcast is supported by equifax as the world's digital infrastructure company equinox enables you to access all the right places partners impossibilities to accelerate your digital advantage together. We can transform your business and changed the world learn more at dot com this marketplace podcast is supported by geico. Do you own or rent your home. Sure you do. Fortunately geigo makes it easy to bundle your home and car insurance. It's a good thing too. Because having a home is hard work go to geico dot com. Get a quote and see how much you could save. Geico dot com easy. No facebook is not surprised that it's private groups. Got overrun with conspiracies and terrorists from american public media. This is marketplace tech. I'm molly would facebook. Last month announced it will stop recommending political and civic groups to its users the company says users want less politics in there feeds and has said it didn't realize how much it's groups we're going to spread medical misinformation be used to radicalize people into on and be one of the home bases for the people who plan the capital insurrection on january. Sixth but this week the wall street journal reported that the company has had in research for months. If not years about private groups being toxic full of calls for violence and still being recommended to facebook users and rene arresthe a research manager at the stanford internet observatory says the shift to groups creates a long standing cycle of radicalization. What was happening. Beginning in two thousand sixteen was you were starting to see these very conspiratorial communities that were taking shape and they were being recommended to people who had interest in other conspiratorial communities. And when you started to have this it was like a correlation matrix. were saying. Oh you're interested in this wild theory while here try this one on again that engagement. Highly engaged communities wildly sensational content high-volume groups and posts really came to in some ways. Become a much more significant part of the experience for people who went and participated in those communities. Is it credible to you for facebook to say. We couldn't have anticipated how conspiratorial these groups were gonna get. No no not at all and that's because there is a wall street journal article that came out last year that said that what the platforms own internal research had showed back in two thousand sixteen was that they were realizing that sixty four percent of people that joined some of what they called more extreme groups were doing it because of props from the recommendation engine for researchers such as myself who were seeing it from the outside we have been very kind of anecdotal sense of the problem. Like right now if you were to go to instagram and follow robert. F kennedy juniors account. You'll see a whole range of recommended accounts that will be suggested to you. That are mostly corona virus. Denial accounts. now. That's the thing that i can see it small-scale but i really don't know if that's a systemic problem or a problem that's anecdotal. How hopeful are you about this move to stop recommending political and civic groups like you know how big a deal do you think it could be to untangle the recommendations from the existence of the groups themselves. I'm not sure that a blanket ban on topics is the way to go about doing this. And facebook has encountered some challenges with the definition of political in other product fronts like ads for example where in order to run advertisements that were related to political issues. You had to go and get yourself verified. Now i think that that's a reasonable amount of friction but the question then became what is a political issue. I think that there are plenty of political groups. That new stay within the realm of healthy behaviors right. They're not being used for organizing violence. The decision to re remove them from recommendations just means that people will have to go and kind of proactively search for them. And i think it'll be interesting to see what impact that has on their growth. I don't think it's a silver bullet though. And then how about the announcement that facebook will require moderators to spend more time reviewing member post like his moderation. A better solution. There's some really interesting evidence from read it. That suggests that the answer to that is yes. Read it really worked to empower moderation at the local level giving tools to moderators at the sub reddit level to make determinations about what norms and values and standards were appropriate for their communities. And so i think improving moderation tools. And then also you know putting the onus on people so that if they create these groups that they don't just kind of you know let them go haywire and then say oh. I just didn't know if you're choosing to form a community it gives us perhaps more of a sense going forward that that that choice is something met. We're going to be expected. To take responsibility for rene duress says research manager at the stanford internet of vittori and now for some related links. We've got links to a couple of stories about what facebook new and when it knew it hint everything and all along and it's all obviously still happening earlier this week. An anti vaccine protests of about fifty people in los angeles forced the city to temporarily close its mass vaccination site at dodger stadium. The washington post reported that the protest was on facebook on a page that promotes refusing to wear masks and cleverly links to debunked viral now supposedly banned misinformation video about the pandemic by ever so slightly. Misspelling it's name. Los angeles fire department officials said he also got an ad on instagram about the planned march and protest. In the days leading up to it. Facebook post it would review the page to see if it violated any of its policies. The company did however ban the page for me and mars military television network after the military overthrew that country's government in a coup. Now you know. I have thoughts on. Jeff bezos stepping down as amazon ceo. We'll talk more about that in coming episodes and i discussed it with my colleagues at the marketplace morning report today but given that. Andy jesse the incoming. Ceo of amazon is the guy who built the company's cloud services business from basically nothing to the leader in the space a forty billion dollar chunk of change. every year. I think you can assume that. The future of amazon is less one day delivery and a whole lot more cloud. I've included a link to a column. I wrote for wired just about a year ago on how we need to start thinking about cloud neutrality. What we do when so much of the internet exists at the business arrangement. Pleasure of few companies of which amazon is the biggest. That's especially notable in light of aws kicking parlor off at servers but if we can assume amazon's ambition is to be the infrastructure for everything is likely to become an even bigger deal over time. Discuss my molly would and that's marketplace tech. This is a pm this marketplace podcast is sponsored by merrill as you manage life merrill guided investing professionals manage your financial goals work with an adviser who can help you build monitor and rebalance your portfolio get started at merrill edge dot com slash investing goals merrill lynch pierce fenner and smith incorporated both a registered broker dealer investment advisor member sipc.
Vaccine Approval Looks Imminent, But Distrust, Misinformation Have Experts Worried
"It could finally happen on thursday. That's when an fda advisory committee will meet and vote on whether to grant emergency use authorization and eu a for distribution of corona virus vaccine developed by pfizer. We're expecting a good discussion there of the data and then we believe shortly after that meeting will be able to make a decision. Dr steven on is head of the fda. He spoke to npr earlier this week after his agency put out a statement about the pfizer vaccine which was recently approved and began distribution in the uk. Ain't when it comes to that vaccine. The fda said that there are quote no specific safety concerns identified that would preclude issuance of an e ua and the conclusions that you just read. are are formed by a career scientists who look very detailed in a detailed way at the safety but also the efficacy of the vaccine And so that Is very very important. Part of our promise. The american that we won't cut corners in how we assess safety and effectiveness of a vaccine whether enough americans are hearing. That promise is another question. Public polling is revealed as many as forty percent of americans are expressing reluctance to get a coronavirus vaccine and misinformation on the topic is rampant online is a rating grady ready powerful parallel pandemic to the real imran. Ahmed studies misinformation on the internet he. Ceo the non-profit center for countering digital hate neck rebound who rely on social media for information about the pandemic are less likely to say they would get a coronavirus vaccine. The one hundred and fifty largest anti vaccination accounts on social media have gained eight million followers since january in essence. Ahmed says the krona virus and misinformation are twin pandemics. Amplifying each other won't be biological one being social what can in concert really undermine octopussy to contain consider this experts say at least seventy five percent of people need to be vaccinated in order to get the virus under control but there is a growing amount of misinformation and distrust in the way of that goal from npr. I'm audie cornish. It's wednesday december ninth. Let's be honest. this year has been hard from covid. Nineteen the presidential election. So much of our energy is spent just getting through the day. Join us for a new season of the story. Core podcast from npr to hear conversations from people who have faced challenges. Come out on the other side learn some meaningful lessons along the way it's consider this from. Npr back in january. The world was barely talking about a mysterious virus that had recently emerged in central china but at the university of washington researcher kalina coal tie already heard about it in the anti vaccination groups on facebook. The conversation about it was like. Hey here's this mysterious illness. Or here's a summit. Does seems to be spreading in china. You some of the people in these communities are actually well aware what's happening in other countries relationship to vaccines coal tie. Who spoke to. Npr's ted correspondent shannon bond as studied the growing anti vaccination movement on facebook for years. There's been a long outstanding concern. That took an epidemic or in this case pandemic is going to potentially cause of another vaccine to be created to potentially be like forced onto everyone and ideas like that used to be confined to specific groups groups dedicated to vaccines alternative health and parenting. The this year coltan says the pandemic has created opportunities for misinformation to become mainstream. There's so much we don't know so much. Uncertainty at uncertainty makes us also proud to misinformation to try to like that feeling in response to the growing appetite for misinformation on its platform. Last week facebook announced it would remove debunked information about the coronavirus vaccine that would quote lead to imminent visible harm. Yes there are false claims that they're taking down but there's a lot of people who were just asking questions so many ways you'd be very hard pressed to say that folks room is going to lead to imminent harm claire. Wardell is the co founder and director for straffed a nonprofit focused on research to address misinformation. She told npr. There's been a noticeable uptick just in the last few months of misinformation about a coronavirus vaccine. Some of it is to make money people trying to drive clicks to their websites where they're selling health supplements so there's those kind of people there are people who are just trying to crave connections with the community. People's lives have been turned upside down this year. They're looking for explanations and then some people are just doing this to cause trouble to see what they can get away with but no matter. The motivation wardell says a lot of vaccine misinformation that winds up on facebook doesn't meet the platforms imminent physical harm standard. And what we're missing is the daily drip drip drip drip drip of low level Vaccine misinformation none of which would break facebook's barrier but we don't know what this looks like. If over a couple of years you see this kind of content that's questioning. The government is questioning the cdc's questioning dr fauci and we have almost no research that allows us to understand that long shooting impacts of misinformation one thing experts study vaccine misinformation. Do understand is that it often takes hold where people may not be looking for it. Rene directa is one of those experts. She directs the stanford internet observatory. She spoke to. Npr's robin young about where vaccine misinformation often appears on social media. And why it's so hard to control. A page may not have a primary focus on what some would consider to be a core anti vaccine beliefs. But they're concerned about another issue that's adjacent or related so you come for the organic food the baby wearing and then in the course of that you're are also becoming their be of constant pushes of messages related to this other thing that you may not necessarily have joined four well and this is a good place to mention. We're talking about people from all across the political spectrum. A lot of people who are on the left looking for an organic lifestyle a healthy lifestyle. So this is both sides yes so there are seven or eight distinct threads of anti vaccine messaging. So there's the health component the idea that there are toxins in vaccines. There is the old conspiracy it's been debunked over and over and over again but it persists that vaccines cause autism. There are narratives related to religion. The idea that if god made you perfect why would you need a vaccine more narratives that appeal to the right ten towards the application of a vaccine. The idea that the government telling you to do something is tyranny and also knowing what you're looking at There are also very official looking websites by groups with names like the children's ethical safety research institute pushing false vaccine information. This reminds me a little bit of what we've heard that cunanan does pull people in by pushing this completely false theory that democrats in particular are running child sex trafficking organizations completely completely not true but there are people who concerned about child sex trafficking. Get pulled into that. Is it a little bit like that. There's a lot right now. you know. There's a conspiracy that financial motivation is what's driving the vaccine process that this is going to turn people into antennas for five g. There's no mechanism by which that could happen. But at the same time this is still a narrative that begins to gain traction among the conspiratorial anti five g community. And so you see a lot of these cross pollination narratives shape so meantime people are being targeted with misinformation on facebook and twitter but studies show that it would take seventy five percent of the population getting vaccinated to control the outbreak. Do you worry that we might not get there. I think the challenge has been that it's growing. It's difficult to get an accurate sense of how many people fully believe all of the things that are said in these groups and on these pages. Unfortunately a lot of the rhetoric is trending towards this. Why should i have to narrative. And i think that we need to make sure that anybody who's communicating about why these vaccines matter is is explaining the value to all of society. Not just the individual and how any restoration of our. Our old way of living is something that we bear. Collective responsibility for rene duress is the technical research manager at the stanford internet observatory. She spoke to robin young. And now that shows a co production of npr and member station w. b. u. r. In boston public health. Experts are worried that some people who are skeptical of coronavirus vaccine or the people who need it the most including latinos and african americans who make up a disproportionate number of people hospitalized or killed by covid nineteen but there are efforts to fight vaccine skepticism within those communities. Here's correspondent adrian for ito who reports on race and identity for npr. Maria does not intend to get vaccinated. At least not right away. I definitely will be one of the people that won't take it. You know in the beginning players. She is not generally a vaccine skeptic. A discipline since this new i am not comfortable of getting it surveys. Show that kind of skepticism about the covid vaccine is widespread. Nearly forty percent of latinos told pew researchers. They would probably or definitely not get the vaccine more than half of black respondents said the same white people have also expressed hesitancy but the reluctance among african americans and latinos is especially worrying because their rates of infection are so much higher. It's it's a major concern dr keith. Norris's among an army of people ramping up efforts to ensure latinos african americans and other people colored. Trust the vaccine. He's hearing a wide range of concerns. Many stemming from a long history of racism in medical research concerned about being a guinea pig concerns about pharma and federal government. And then there's lots of social media messaging downplaying the importance of coronavirus. Norris works for ucla and is leading california effort funded by the national institutes of health to build vaccine trust. The strategy is to get clear. Concise information to black and brown communities with help from so-called trusted gers people with existing relationships in communities with high covid risk. People like tony. Wafer a longtime los angeles-based hiv educator in may he lost five close family members to covid. He's talked about that a lot as he's encouraged black friends and neighbors to volunteer for vaccine trials and now to take the vaccine is hard to say. Get getting this trial and these were people gonna help you win. These are the same white. Have been kicking your ass alway. You know what i mean. He says he acknowledges people's skepticism and meets them where they are. I tell people what are you. Won't they say well. I'm all blood pressure medicine. I'm taking central cholesterol. So you know before you've taken that pill clunk child out of thin air then they go really yeah. It was the clinical shelters. Ucla's keith. norris says this outreach. We'll take many forms in person on the airwaves and in virtual town halls. He says researchers will track. What messages about the vaccine. People respond to to see if there are certain areas that tend to have a greater impact moving people from being reticent to being willing. I'm not gonna go. Set is with sonny seattle health san diego clinic that serves a large mexican and mexican. American population fears about vaccine. Safety are compounded by language issues and concerns about immigration status. The clinic trained community outreach workers to answer questions about the vaccine the reason why this is working is because people are not relying on a government entity posed information especially due to the last four years. People rather i hear from someone that they already have a relationship with. She expects the vaccine to gain acceptance over time but she also says many of the clinics patients are already eager for the vaccine because they've spent months risking themselves in essential. Jobs have lost friends and family. Don't wanna see anyone else. Any other loved one. Have to go through that for these people. The vaccine means being able to continue to provide allies for their loved ones and to be there for them in the long run. She says that's the message. She intends to keep driving home. That's npr national correspondent. adrian florida. it's consider this from npr. I'm audie cornish. And i'm actually listen to be from. Wmu amu in for jonathan wilson around fifty thousand doses of the pfizer corona virus vaccine could arrive in maryland as early as next week. According to state officials people who work in hospitals and long term care facilities would be among the first to get the vaccine if approved by the fda maryland could also receive more than one hundred thousand doses of the modern vaccine later this month. Both vaccines required to doses. Here's maryland governor. Larry hogan at a press conference on tuesday to be effective. These vaccines need reach a vast majority of our population and to do so in a relatively short period of time this is by far the most massive undertaking of this pandemic. This is consider this from npr and wmu number of recorded covid cases in the washington region has surpassed five hundred thousand since the pandemic began and as government and health leaders in our region continued to enforce restrictions. Hope has been placed in the possibility of vaccines arriving this month and early next year. Leaders in maryland. Virginia and dc have discussed the vaccine distribution plants saying they will prioritize workers and first responders here to discuss this plans and continued efforts to stop the spread of the virus in our region. His wmu's margaret barthel. Hi margaret hi ashley. So we know that. The number of reported cases in the region since the beginning of the pandemic is more than five hundred thousand. But can you give us a sense of what that case load. Looks like in each jurisdiction sherpa. I think it's fair to say that the caseload is is the worst. It's been across the region for the whole pandemic virginia average more than three and a half thousand new cases per day. Over the past week triple springs peak. Maryland is also close to tripling its peak and the district is close to doubling its spring numbers of new cases and we heard a little bit earlier about hogan's plan for distributing the vaccine in maryland. What does that look like. In virginia and dc. Sure i think we can generally expect things in virginia to look pretty similar of frontline healthcare workers and people who work or live in long term care settings will be the first to get the vaccine in the district. Things are a little bit more complicated. The federal government appears to be getting ready to allocate vaccine doses according to state population but dc officials say that that will only be enough to cover about ten percent of the healthcare workers in the city and its extra complicated of course because c. health workers may live in neighboring jurisdictions. So there's a real question about how that's all going to work out. Who's going to get a who's going to vaccinate whom and so forth and in the meantime each leader has put limits on gatherings and enforced wearing masks but no one is saying their jurisdiction is going to shut down completely right. This came up at a press conference with dc mayor. Muriel bowser district officials have been reluctant to reimpose. Stay at home orders. Here's what health director. Dr la- quander net had to say about. That would be much easier for us as the health department to advise the mirror to move us to stay at home posture. But that would not necessarily be widely acceptable by the five residents of our community and the degree to which we adherents to. That immediately may also be debatable. Now nine months into the response and so we have to think about how we can make these incremental changes that will give us some benefit and impact based on the populations that are driving our increasing cases. So nesbitt didn't provide any particular evidence that people wouldn't comply with stricter rules but think this kind of hesitancy from local officials Certainly underscores the degree of pandemic fatigue. That we're all feeling as well as a real concern about the survival of local businesses even while we are seeing the number of cases go so dramatically up and you mentioned this concerned about local businesses. It seems that. Dc is working to help out people who are struggling financially as well. Yes bowser also announced a new plan to distribute more cares act money. It's a one time. A twelve hundred dollar stimulus check to people who applied for eligible for the federal pandemic unemployment assistance program before november thirty s. That program covers gig workers and contractors and it will expire this month if congress doesn't extend it so. Dc's taking matters into its own hands on this one. That's wmu's margaret barth fell. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me ashleigh and thanks for joining us for. Consider this from npr. Listen again next time. And we'll make sense of the major stories happening in the washington region and elsewhere in your world. I'm actually gonna be.
Roger McNamee takes on big tech | The TED Interview
"Hello. It's Chris Anderson today on TED talks daily where sharing an episode from my podcasts, the Ted interview that was recorded live at Ted twenty nineteen. I sat down with Roger McNamee. He's an early investor in Facebook and has since become one of that company's most outspoken critics in this fraught moment in social media history. We seek to understand what has gone wrong and how we should move forward. That was some important voices in the audience, and you'll get to hear questions from them to for more deep dives into great minds descent. The Ted interview wherever you get your podcasts. Mcnamee welcome to the Ted interview. What an honor, great to be here, Chris. So just to summarize a little more than a decade ago. You met Mark Zuckerberg you persuaded him not to take a billion dollar offer or encouraged him not to introduce him to Cheryl sambergen urged him to hire, you became an investor in Facebook and a passionate believer in the company, you step back bit from direct involvement is being directed visor to Mark and watched. And then this spring, you came out with a book in the title of the book was not my brilliant friend, Mark Zuckerberg. It was zonked waking up to the Facebook catastrophe. I mean at first blondes that seems like a pretty major betrayal, and your contention, is that it's not you who did the betraying. Well, here's what I believe, and I think it can always be criticized. But when I met, Mark was twenty two I thought he was different. And the other entrepreneurs of that era. If you think about it, the big success stories at a Silicon Valley over the past dozen years have included companies like Uber and Airbnb and lift companies like Spotify would just not base there. But comes out of that same goes system and there were two core driving principles. You know, one was that laws didn't apply. So you had a set of people whose basic principle was that the laws that govern the economy in their sector? Didn't apply stubby. Uber lift Airbnb, or once who said, I can develop an information advantage over one or the other constituencies in my ecosystem, which would be Spotify. The fintech companies and also Uber and lift relative to drivers. I thought Mark was different than that, and I was a huge huge believer in the company. And when when I retired from the business in two thousand fifteen and I started see things going wrong. I was shocked because I really thought Facebook at its core had a better value system. And that the product was designed to be both fun. And at least not harmful, what was the first thing that gave you pause for thought. So there were two that happened right in a row. The first was during the twenty sixteen democratic primary New Hampshire when I saw a Facebook group associated notionally with the Bernie Sanders, campaign, distributing misogynistic memes, and they were spreading violently among my friend group in a way that suggests that somebody was spending money to make them happen to get people into the group. And then the second thing was just a couple of months later. A corporation was expelled from Facebook for scrape using the ad tools to get data about anyone who expressed an interest in black lives matter. And they were then selling that data to police departments to Facebook did the right thing. They expelled him but the damage had been done right. These people civil rights had been violated and those two things really set me back. And so did you raise concerns with Facebook trying to find out what are the beginning? I didn't have. Data and almost immediately the United Kingdom had its referendum, leaving the European Union Brexit and breaks. It was when I started to see the oh my God. The ad tools. The same thing that makes post viral can be used in an electoral context and the side with the more inflammatory message would get a huge uplift. Right. So that's when I began to reach out to people, and I made a I lobbied messages into a lot of different people and I didn't have data and, you know, how data driven our world is. And so people were kind of going, Roger those things can't be related. And then in October two things happen that forced me to go into action. The first is housing and urban development cited Facebook because they add tools allow discrimination in housing in violation of fair housing. And then immediately after that, we heard that our intelligence agency said the Russians were trying to interfere in the election that is when I reached out to market share at the end of October of two thousand sixteen the thing that's puzzling about this is what to make of why this happened. But I mean one view would be that Facebook were excited to let. The platform be used in this way because they made a fortune from it. When you look at the numbers, if that was their intention, they shockingly undercharged because I think the Russians spent the number I saw, like one hundred thousand dollars or less full that they reached more than one hundred million hundred twenty six American. So I mean in an election, one hundred and thirty seven million people voted, so that is either the most cost effective advertising ever invented in the history of the planet, or a complete screw up a complete. I mean, does no scenario that hand that, that is the greatest advertising platform ever invented for. I mean, my sense is Facebook provides any marketer, with targeting. That is better than and more cost effective than anything that ever preceded it. I mean there's a reason why the stocks done so well. And there's a reason why I was such a big fan. It seemed to be something didn't hurt anybody in the problem here, Chris. And I think the issue with the Russians is that the way the incentives work and. This is not a Facebook. This is the valley and candidly, the whole US economy, which there really weren't any rules. And so the notion was get rid of all the friction and grow as rapidly global scale should possibly can. And in that context, everything was automated and it was. No one's job to ask the question. What could go wrong? So indeed seems like the heart of this. The origination of this is basically a kind of replicas naievety. It's a belief that look people are basically good. Our mission is to connect the world. If we connect the world as fast as the heck, we can, yes, we'll make money from this stuff, but it's it's going to be fundamentally good. And it just it just. Seven billion monthly users before anything really bad showed up on the platform. I mean you really listen. I say this is somebody who is currently a critic, but you still have to admire how extraordinary the accomplishment was to get to one point seven billion for anything went wrong. The problem was once you pass that threshold all of a sudden. Things start to go wrong all over the place and their basic business practices. Get looked at an completely different light, and you see that a wait a minute. The cost of getting here is higher than it looks. So a bunch of things happened while they were basically exploited by bad actors, so there's the Cambridge Analytica story where data was sold innocently for academic purposes, and then abused should Facebook seeing that coming possibly. But at some point they must have had the sickening realization. Holy crap. Look, what's look. What's happened for? We got even if money was the motive they almost no money for this, but they allow themselves to be exploited to spectacular degree the way I look at that experience was when Zinger came along with farmville and the poker game they essentially reverse engineered Facebook. And they figured out a way to get it friends lists. And they begin a campaign of sharing the data the Federal Trade Commission goes no, they do a consent decree in twenty eleven that basically says there has to be informed prior consent before anybody's day. They shared my understanding. I can't I can't prove this Meyer standards to Facebook essentially move forward. So there was no consent decree and continued to operate through twenty fourteen with that basic notion of if there was a way to gain competitive advantage by the trading of user data. They were going to do it, and privacy was not a consideration that was in the discussion, and so what should have happened that because suddenly it became very, very apparent that been this horrifying hack of enormous consequence. What should have happened that not a hack? They were using the tools the way they were designed. So essentially, this was the unintended consequence of a well intended strategy done by really bad actors who had a really clever strategy. So when I went to them on the thirtieth Tober I sent this. Op-ed. I was drafting toba twenty twenty sixteen so it's nine days before the election. It basically focuses on the issue with the Bernie Sanders campaign, it focuses on the black lives matter on Brexit and on the housing urban development. And obey say, look guys, I think there is a problem with the algorithms, there's a problem with the business model. You gotta get on top of this. I'm not thinking it's going to affect the outcome of the twenty sixteen election. I'm just reaching out to my friends with what I perceive as this failure mode that suddenly being exposed and their response, which under the context was maybe understandable was Roger. These are just isolated things we appreciate you reaching out. We value your input. We're gonna turn you over to Dan rose, who's going to help you figure out if there's really something here, we have this conversations, then the US election happens, and I go to Dan, I say, Dan, you got Brexit. You got the US election where you are potentially involved in the outcome. You got at least two big civil. Oh, writes things that I can see you have got to do a Johnson and Johnson did when somebody put poison and bottles of Tylenol in Chicago, Illinois in one thousand nine hundred eighty two which is they took every bottle off of every shelf without being asked like instantly, and they didn't put him back till they invented tamper-proof patchy my point was you have to leap to the defense that people use your product. This is what Boeing should have done with a seven thirty seven max. You do not want to be forced to do the right thing, because it kills your brand, and I said, you guys have a trust business, and I spent three months, three months pleading with Dan to do the right. So they could have said in your view should have said. Alert world. American people, we've noticed something terrible's happened on our platform. A huge number of ads have been got out there that frankly are not fact based here are the steps were doing to shut it down. Meanwhile, beware, I could have said that and should have said that my belief was the simple thing to do was to send an Email to every single person. Touched by the Russian interference, one hundred twenty six million people on Facebook, the twenty million Instagram, saying, we are, really apologized, but the Russians have manipulated the election. The United States have interfered in it, and you're affected here, or all the eggs, you saw every one of these was not authentic, and that might have worked, it might not work, but it would have been better than what they did. I mean, if you put yourself in an show shoes at that point, you've built this extraordinary company in record time you'll really considered around. The world in the most idealistic terms by seventy people. Your whole self narrative is this is an exceptional organization, fundamentally our interests are aligned with a better world. The thought of going public with something that could slash the value of the company could scare away bunch of uses that would the various makes you sick, and I can just about understand why someone would say this copy. Right. Wait, let's white that slowdown. Maybe we aren't understanding this full way. Maybe it'll go away. Can you understand why up? No. What I asked him to do was to do that investigation, which apparently they did do by the summer of twenty seventeen for sure. Knew the dimensions of the problem, and they still tried to brazen their way through it, and my simple point to them was, if I'm right? This is not going to end. Well, you should protect your brand protect your reputation. And I'm sure if they had that time over, they would probably agree that we screwed up. We absolutely should have got ahead of this. I think it's fair to say that now the company has taken at least some steps outdoor. But we heard on Monday nights Carol while it is here in the audience extraordinary talk about horrifying odds that the place during the Brexit campaign that will never fully accounted for. A Facebook employee spoke to me afterwards and said that, that may have been chew, then now it is impossible to buy political ads in that way. Do agree that at least speak to this specific case they have taken some prevention measures they have. But what they've done is to protect against a repeat of two thousand sixteen without thinking about the dynamic system that is Facebook in how many other ways there are to accomplish that same thing. So here's what I give Mark Norma's credit for Marcus out, speaking publicly, which is not a natural place for him. And I really applaud that I wish Google were as engaged in this conversation as Marcus. I believe Mark wants to solve this problem. What I'm afraid is that the underlying business model is the root cause I mean, that seems to be possible to imagine a business model that is based on advertising. But the says you can't place misleading political ads that, that in itself, would not cripple the business bottle. That's all they have they have, I think sought, at least to do is to put strong limits on the types of political be now. Yeah. Except it's really hard to monitor because the only people who see the ends of the people are intended to receive it. And so you have this issue, and this is what I think, actually two thousand sixteen where they pick these three groups suburban white women people of color in young people. And they, they essentially concocted messages that would suppress the vote in an election, where seventy seven thousand eight hundred people in three states decided the outcome, it is not at all inconceivable, that the Trump election campaign over Facebook played a huge role in deciding the outcome. And what I'm saying here is that if we look at the, the Russian part of it, stamping that out, stamping out, foreign engagement, our elections is really essential. But I think it's just as important to prevent manipulation domestically that is designed to discuss. People from voting or whatever. I mean you can say, well, there's always been voter suppression. I'm going, but they've never been tools like this before, and I think you just have to step back and have the debate about what is democracy. How important is it to get everybody to be registered? How important is everybody to vote? How important is it to have a level playing field where what I was point out? Chris is that there was roughly a seventeen to one advantage to Trump's advertising and Facebook over Clinton's in part, because the nature of the message was perfectly tuned to its audience. So it was much more viral and I don't want to relitigate twenty sixteen two thousand sixteen is done. Okay. What I'm worried about is that anybody can do that, right. Some guy at a school board in California hired in his really firm to try to do it in a school board election. I mean it's really nut. So how easy this stuff is to do. And again, Facebook didn't do the some purpose, but they created the world's great advertising platform. When you have that it's volunteer. You would argue that just for democracy at the very least there should be some restriction or compulsion for social media companies, any company in the case of political advertising that caught me done in the dark. I it's that even if you're going to target people at the very least the ads that need to be out there that companies shouldn't hold the secret to me sounds like a pretty reasonable point of view. Does anyone agree with that? No one agrees with that. Some saying why allows them tolsey that we had lukewarm approval of the last question, what I'm hearing is what about this is an alternative to say money. Corrupts politics. We just should not allow political ads on social networks. Little little little over. Okay. Look, I'd love to move on from the political question to some of the other issues that people talk about so took about outrage and felt about this because I know this was another Leah where are you had about facial, one of the things that Tristan Harris taught me early on. Was that smartphones changed marketing in a really profound way? Because historically, if you go back, one hundred years, people have used persuasion, to get people's attention. But when you put it on a smartphone, you could target it individuals. So the Facebook today is two and a half billion monthly users, which means two and a half billion Truman shows each person can have their own reality. When I was a kid. There was a filter bubble in the United States called network television. Everyone my age watch the Kennedy funeral. The Beatles on it Sola, and then the moon landing we had Walter Cronkite, who changed our view of the Vietnam war like as. A country all at once and the thing people complained about, and that filter bubble was conformity. Now which have smartphones is you can now target each person individually, the initial business was targeted as to pay for this, but then they got to this notion of behavioral prediction, Facebook, Google and other people in this ad model. They're selling behavioral predictions to advertisers, because if you can predict if you know that somebody's only two steps from buying a car that adds worthwhile. The more than if they're twenty steps away. Right. So the close yard of the prediction of where they are in that purchase process. The more valuable the ad is so there in behavioral prediction, but to make that work. They have to get past our public face. Right. We all have this thing that makes us more alike, when we're in groups, they wanna find out, how do you react, if I show, you something that's anti semitic. How do you react if I show you hate speech? How do you react, if I show you violence? How do you react by show? You something that makes everyone else afraid from their point is it doesn't matter which way you react. But they got to get through that, that filter but I worry that the economic incentives right now. But Russia, you and I, we both know lots of people working for tech companies, do you think that a significant proportion of them a thinking? They're saying, haha we've cracked it. We know how to make a ton of money if we can just dial up the outrage among us. Imagine how many millions of people are going to flock to our platform and stay in a magin the amount of advertising, we can sell them. Let's done that. I don't think they think that way at all. I think they look at this, and they're engineers and their job is to increase engagement, so the gonna promote whatever does it if tomorrow morning. Pictures of Basset hounds promoted the most engagement. That's what they would be putting on everybody's so at that is what works the other stuff works in so naturally as an engineer, you're always fine tuning, and remember, nobody sees the whole picture. There are hundreds and maybe thousands of people working in these algorithms, and the each have Lentini little piece seen the whole pictures really hard. But the way this is portrayed in the media and the public is getting really angry about this. Is that this is some intentional conspiracy by evil Silicon Valley. And I just think that the way I see it is, this is an example of a I gone amok, Nick Bostrom used to write about the problem with AI is that it may have different goals from us. If you built an AI to make paper clips and say, make as many as you can, and you give enough intelligence, you'll turn around one day and suddenly say that it's munched up New York City to turn into paperclips because got say, don't do that. By marketing attention and trying to build an attention economy to stop point. I think for so much of Silicon Valley is humans a basically good. If we give people a voice if we give people a choice, they're going to teach each other the world will get better, the truth will just be a quick click away, even if someone does something, you mean the crowd will correct them. And they missed what every tabloid publisher has known one hundred years, which is the way to get secularization. If that's your goal is to be gory to be dramatic to be sexual to put all the outrage out their Facebook, and to some extent, Twitter and Google have turned us on into Rupert Murdoch's and into sort of saying, you know. Wow, we can be our own tabloid publisher look at all the attention, we can get by forgetting reason maximizing for each other's lizard, brains. We've created an internet. Eliza brains. I totally agree with that. If you read the book, one of the things, you'll discover is, I don't have anything unkind to say about any of the people not Mark not shirl ninety the people working Cummings. I believe this is a cultural problem that took place, not just in Silicon Valley but across the whole country. I mean think about this. There's a local Bank in my community coal Wells Fargo, right? They got busted for taking money essentially from millions of their account holders, and nobody got punished for it, right? The banks get bussed in two thousand eight for blowing up the entire comedy. Nobody punished for it, right? I mean we live in a time where there are no rules and there's no enforcement, and these are really smart. People who saw and right, essentially, all this unclaimed data and all this unclaimed opportunity, and at the beginning, it seemed to throw off nothing but goodness. Right. And by the time the bad stuff hit, we were so deep into it, that it was really hard to reverse feel. I get all that. That doesn't mean we should ignore it. But if it for a moment, we change the conversation from being look how. Evil Silicon Valley has become to being holy crap. This is a massive screw up, then conversation becomes, is there a design fix like I personally believe that there are sort of thousands of people in these companies right now, trying to figure out how the hell we get round this, and, you know, Tristan Harris himself as sort of these principles of humane design where the goal is instead of just maximizing attention. How'd you create value? How'd you make someone go? I learned something this was special. And he'll my question to my question to you, if Mark and Cheryl had two choices in front of them one where they make a lot less money. But the still have a profitable company, but they have a much healthier ecosystem, where people aren't so motivated to amplify lizard, brain material and are more motivated to be cross partisan and so forth. Do you think they would take that choice? I, surely hope, they would and the, you know, that was the choice that I recently went to them with. And we're I've carefully tried to position myself in this place of talking by business malls. Because to your point about design, you know, I don't think you can just fix this. You know, Mark solution almost everything has been more code more AI, the promise that once people have a preference bubble, which is when the when they actually believe in anti vaccine when they actually believe the climate change is nonsense when they're in that point. There's no technology. That's a human thing, right? A lot of this is about face to face and getting together people in bridging gaps. Right. And I think it has to start with the people use the products at the end of the day, we have been willing to accept a deal that we do not understand the actual thing that's going on inside. These companies is not that we're giving a little bit of personal data. They're getting better ad targeting. Okay. There is way more going on here than that. And the. The stuff that's going beyond that is having an impact on people's lives broadly, even people who are not on these platforms. You did not need to be on Facebook in me on Mark to be dead. You just needed to be a rowing, you did not need to be on Facebook or YouTube in Christchurch, New Zealand to be dead. You just need to be one of those mosques. This stuff is affecting people who are not on these platforms in ways. We cannot recover from. I mean, I think everyone here would agree that the consequences some of what happened on social media horrifying people have died. People elections have been affected. It is horrifying threat to future. But to me, it really matters. How we talk about it to avoid igniting a situation where the people who could fix it won't because they are so attacked feel unfairly attack. So the question is not was Har. The question is how much of it is an intended, screw up, and how much is greed motivated or some other motivated evil missing touch because the white because this really matters and. There was a moment last year. For example, where on the surface like Mark came out that, you know, the big apology, they changed policies. And as a result of the changes they made they lost over one hundred billion dollars in market capital, something on a single day. If I remember right meaningless. Well. Any evidence. Of his is to make it Wall Street is I've been doing investing for thirty six years while street remains a mystery stocks backup to practically it's high. So my one observation of greed versus unintended. I believe that the culture of the US economy, very much favors, monopolists and really encourages monopoly to the point where, you know, Peter Thiel Nazi in the Wall Street Journal skin speeches on monopoly is the right way to do things and intellectually understand his point. It is. However, contrary to the basic ethos of the United States of America, where we associated monopoly with monarchy, and we associated small business in competition with the American way and my point about this. Chris is that I don't think it has to be either or the sensually, the greed is good mentality of Gordon gecko has been the way businesses are run. We've abandoned the five stakeholders the fi. Stakeholders are shareholders employees. The communities were employees lived customers and suppliers. And now all we care about is the investors. And that makes you really short her. Basically means you sacrifice a lot of things that are in the public interest for the almighty buck, and you can just blame the shareholders for any bed thing you do. And my point is I think that tech didn't create that Silicon Valley didn't create that. But it is one of the exemplars of that problem run, but is not really in the Beck and call of investors. He's got majority control one good night's sleep away from the Piff and hang where he wakes up and realizes he can do more good. It's fixing the business model Facebook than can with thousands chance. Sucker Bergen initiatives. I wonder whether I'm just speculating, but it's quite possible that in his mind sitting becoming an big billionaire is the number one thing driving might also just be he wants to continue to build something views incredibly cool, incredibly. And he's just doing it in some ways very wrong. I haven't known Mark really intimately in ten years, right? So I, I don't want to pretend like I know the thing I will say that the Mark, I knew was very idealistic. I think he, he viewed connecting the whole world is. So obviously good thing than justified, whatever it took to get there. And I think that there's some things he missed along the way. Because if you look at it, you realize that, that his vision didn't have to go wrong, but it would a really helped if circuit breakers and containment strategies for motion contagion had been built into the system would have really helped if he had made. Maintained the religious adherence to authenticate identity, which was there at the beginning. I mean the reason I fell in love with Facebook, the beginning. I was convinced that the fact that you used your school Email address that authenticated identity was gonna keep trolls out. And that was gonna make Facebook bigger than Google at that time. And the thing is, I think Mark thinks he's given the world gift and I would be at all shocked if he's just sitting there wondering what the hell is everybody's so unhappy about and I'm sitting there going Mark, we're not unhappy, but the gift were unhappy about these unintended consequences of what you did, and it's time to address those and not by nitpicking -ly, fixing the symptoms that showed up in twenty sixteen but rather by going back and looking at the conditions of the business model that allowed that stuff to happen in the first place. I mean, why is it that we allow targeted voter suppression as an election? Why, why do we allow companies to provide services to? Campaigns. They're all these things that you look at you just go hang on just a sec. There are real problems with this model and they're. I want to come into those problems just to spend a second just talking about the gift because even there's, there's a huge gift, you took about two three billion uses there are a lot of people around the world, whose internet experience is Facebook. I have met many people who have learned what they've learned on the internet via Facebook, and who through Facebook have been connected to a wide group of people from many countries who have transformed that loves them. And there's probably literally if you poke into the hundreds of millions of stories of human connection, the worked out, the right way. So let's put that on a table. And not forget that is there. And how come back to the crop. Talk about monopoly because the type of monopoly that these tech companies have is not the traditional type of monopoly. It's not that they are squeezing up the price of product because they're the ones who can supply that product. It's a different type of monopoly. What is it is? So here's the problem beginning, nineteen Eighty-one. We changed our philosophy about antitrust and we basically said the only measure of consumer harm. We're going to look at any longer. Is price increases in price? So we're not gonna worry about lesson of supply. We're not going to worry about terms and conditions right now we're about any of those kinds of things pollution anything. We're just going to look at increased price and the problem was we see these products is free. But that's actually incorrect, what you really have. Here is a barter of data from the consumer for services. So if you wanna understand if there's been price increase, you have to look at the change in the value of data given up relative to the change in value of services received. And there it is demonstrably true that the value of data given up his much gray. It's growing much more rapidly in the via the services being received the serve each individual service doesn't change by g mail doesn't change that much. The blue after Facebook didn't change that much Messager doesn't change that much. And yet is a simple marker the average revenue for users been going up very, very rapidly. And so there is. Whole project going on to bring eighty trust bear here using that hypothesis antitrust has been dormant back to ninety four in the Microsoft case. So I don't even know if we can get this thing into first gear, but that whole discussion I think it takes on weight because these guys do behave monopolistically as people in almost every sector, the, the basic argument is that when a company when a single company gets control of too much data that is dangerous simple way to if you're Snapchat, you have one data set you're up against Facebook, which has a minimum seven or eight completely, discreet data. So it's thinking about Google right searches one data set Email identity apps give you location, right? All these other data sets when you put them together. The value goes up by more than a linear amount, and it creates all of these walls, and moats that prevent competition as well as creating network effects on this something. Hugely creepy and alarming about thinking of single company knowing this about us this about assist about stuff that we don't even know. And then, you know, serving an ad that somehow exploits all these things that we don't know how they came to put that in front of us. Well, how about how about some even creepy? Let's just do the Pokemon go on here. Right. You guys remember Google glass. Right. People going around. We called him glass holes. Right. And we didn't like they had to take it back, take into lab and reformulated in Google apps as video game, right? Spin it out his Niane tech. It's called poke mongo. They get a billion people going around with their smartphones. And what are they doing? Right. It's image recognition. It's falling routes going places, but it's also allowing for some really interesting experience and behavioral manipulation if we put a Pokemon in private property will people knock on the door of total stranger to get the Pokemon. Yeah. They will. How about if we put it in a place? You gotta climb over fence. Well that too. What if we put it in a Starbucks? Oh my God. They'll go into a Starbucks. Well, how about if we put it in the third Starbucks, and then give them ten sets off? They go to that one. They will right. I mean the key thing understand, is when you're in the world of, of behavioral prediction behavioral manipulation there becomes a divergence between your purpose and the purpose of the app. And the thing that we don't know the thing we have to have a conversation about is that these guys are really smart. There are no rules. We essentially allowed them to take control of massive data sets of unclaimed data right? Google drives up and down the street. They call it street view and only the Germans pushback. So then they do satellite few, they do Google glass, ninety two Pokemon go, right. Then they go on a choir. All of our data. Right. The banking data location data from Sella companies, you know, health and wellness apps. Right. They get all those data sets. They create the data avatar and they run experiments, right? Well, let's stop. So this is this is concerning. But I'm also I'm also now we're calling now we're in the same place. I also think there's a conversation though about about language, you talk about behavior minute relation lot, which is a creepy terminent and the stressful term, and you'll bring people out in the streets, which may be the right thing to do. But when someone a coquette on TV fifty years ago that was behavior relation advertising is to meet the question is, I think we have to be more careful about the language here and try to separate genuinely creepy intent from reasonable use of data. So so can I push back on that for just a sec because I'm not talking about intent. I'm talking about about action. Okay. And what I'm saying here is, let's concede that the intent was honorable throughout. Okay. Which I am prepared to do in have done throughout my, my activism. I'm simply saying that what winds up happening because the way the. Centers of the business model work, you wind up getting creepy outcomes. If you are the person who's, who's who thinks they're playing Pokemon go. And they're being tested as to what they will do. And what they won't do. It doesn't matter that the person had good intent right? I mean it like if you run over somebody by accident kill them, you're not guilty of murder guilty of manslaughter. Right. And my point is, you can have unintended bad consequences for which you are still responsible. And that's what I'm saying. This is like chemical companies. We used to let chemical companies poor chromium mercury into freshwater, right? One day, we woke up and realized those extra knowledge should be borne by the people, create them. Right. That's all I'm talking about here. I'm not saying, you know, I'm not saying that they're bad people. I don't think for a minute. They think of what they're doing is behavioral manipulation. But it doesn't matter that is what it is. Right think they would says he'll manipulation. And that's what all advertising is. And always has the question is, is that data? So his example that everyone can agree as dangerous, if a company, what to put together a clue from this behavior in this behavior, and this behavior and decide here's an addictive personality defa. We will of ties them some painkiller because we know that gonna go for, and then they'll forever, and we're gonna get rich evil evil evil. But if the intention is what if we could put together west someone is this moment in time with what we know about the preferences? We could give them an added saying, you know what fifty meters from you. You is that you've dreamed of your whole life. One stop the car now pullover and get it. And, you know, maybe that would actually be a positive contribution to someone's life and that's happening, right? Hopefully in this thing that the incentives of caused that to happen. I don't hear those stories getting told that much, but I'd love to believe it happened accepted the story is being told me the question is what then happens because you'll pressing hard for like antitrust fundamental that several companies should be broken up, like Facebook Google. What I really want to do is I want to create space for alternative business models. So I'm less focused on the break-up model than I am on. I don't think it's fair to have companies maintaining a market and then favoring their own products inside the market, so Amazon, Google Facebook, all do that. And historically we have not allowed that as a country. I don't think that should be allowed. I'd like to look at this the way we looked at long distance, well, where we went in from an antitrust point of view into AT, and T and said, we're going to have competition long distance, you have to provide lines to MCI and sprint, and they're going to compete with you over your own network in order to introduce competition. You could do the same thing here by setting an arbitrary limit so that a company came with a new business model, got access to say their first ten fifty or one hundred million users over Google, and Facebook right, based on having a different business model. The same thing that happened guys. So that's where I go. I'm not focused on break up. Because my view is, if you don't change the business model breaking up is just going to cause some Bristol, small proliferate. And so what I'd rather see is a change in the business model. Accompanied by antitrust that allows for startups to happen. I believe fixing this problem created a bigger business opportunity than the business. We have today in tech, every single wave started with an antitrust, case AT and T and fifty-six creates computers in create a Silicon Valley, with by taking the transistor public domain IBM in the sixties create software and PC's AT, and T, and the second time creates cellular telephony and broadband, which is the internet and then Microsoft, which creates Google and all that. So I just wanna follow that path. And but I really really, really want to change the business. The tech companies might argue that if we to allow technology to empower people to the max cont do that without knowing data, the motifs actually knows about some of the more it can do for them in principle, so. I'm wondering whether there is the solution to this is to allow consumers much more transparency to be able to control that own data here. I have a Bank account. Here's my data. It's whatever blockchain protected. Whatever I control that I can license it to companies companies have to tell me which of that data, they're using which they are adding to whatever. But, but I control it isn't that a way, I think absolutely. But here's where I would start the probably today if you start from the status quo, you're negotiating down from one hundred and you wind up at, at the global data protection regulation, which only addresses the data you put into the system. It doesn't touch the meta data about what you're doing. It doesn't touch your browser history, and it doesn't touch all the third party data. This available to be bought so your banking data your health, data, your location, data and all that. And so, I would rather zero base what we're doing and then have the negotiation there about what should be. Allowed. Okay. And again, I'm an active swamp taking the pure form just as they're taking the pure form from their point of view now, and I wanna have the debate will come down somewhere in the middle. I am not an absolutist on any of this. But I think if we don't at least actively consider what it would look like to eliminate all of, you know. Why is it possible to follow people around the web? Let's Google G mail, right? I mean, they tell you their platform, not a media company. Right. So they're common carrier, but they're read near your emails for their economic benefit if they were at the postal service or FedEx go to jail for that. I mean we've never had a conversation about what uses of data legitimate, which ones are not. I mean, the health data. I mean hip is not perfect. But like doctors can't sell your Meshal cycle, right? Right. I mean yet that is what happens today. And my own point is we need to understand. We all have to get everybody up to speed on what's going on, and then have the debate and maybe I don't win. And I'm cool with that. You've done an amazing job of highlighting a huge number of issues is taking courage to do it. You've risked losing friendships. You've had Silicon Valley and, you know you've. It's remarkable, I'm not I don't know of a similar story of someone who's done that u-turn and come out so passionately and eloquently. So definitely want to recognize that. I think it would be citing with this group to by all means a Chris question for Raja. But also, let's think about the way forward. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's so powerful your voice on the subjects. So this is Carol Cadwalader. Who is my hero? Nobody was lifting kilkare listening on the puck cost. Carol gave the opening talk at Ted. An absolute -ly ignited, the room, there was a massive standing ovation electrifying Carol. And So, Chris, I really hate what you'll say about good intentions gone wrong. We can buy that. But it has to be followed with action. And so, you know, I spoke to my talk about the case of Brexit thing, the Petrie dish for Trump. And. I've been agitating in Burson for public inquiry but it's not going to happen, because government is complicit in many of these crimes, and said that thing I was thinking about in the last day was about some source of people's truth inquiry trying to gather in all of the data and doing CSI Brexit, essentially a kind of forensic examination. And so say again, if Facebook if they have turned the corner, if, if they want to be well-intentioned Facebook hand over that data lettuce it. So, so crystal thank you for the question because I think we actually do need to do the study, you're talking about, so they're two different things going on. We need to understand what the failure modes are, and we need to help the companies get to a place where it's safe for them to open up to share everything that they know everything that they've learned because at the end of the day, I mean, what I would be in favor of would be giving them an amnesty. The St. right in order to open up all the books, right? Let us e everything that was done. Hi. I would actually I would urge you not to seek amnesty for I feel that, that will, I think that's would put us right back in what you very eloquently said, was the problem with say the golden Sachs bail out, or that there was never there was never any consequences for terrible behavior. And if Facebook are all the tech companies get amnesty, then there will still be no belief. They'll be no consequences for people doing something wrong. And it would just tell generation of more tech people that look how many billions of dollars you can make and just get away with it. Thank you. We're gonna go here. You have a story to tell right right here. Wait a minute this. So this is Chris for Wiley. Can people hear me? Yes. On high very cool to have you here. Hi. I recognize terraced. So my name's Christopher Wiley. I'm the Cambridge analytical whistleblower. And. Fantastic Carol, by the way. So I've been talking with a lot of members of congress might concern about, you know, we call them filter bubbles or segmentation for me. I worry that what is happening on Facebook. More broadly, on the internet is actually a new form of segregation. And when you think about when you think about the impact, why why it matters for us to be able to sit in the same space and have the same common experiences so that we can be citizens together. Thank you. So my name is Paul and sale, and I previously served as the executive secretary of South Africa's Truth and reconciliation commission and therefore resonate, very strongly carols point about the they needs to be some form of truth. Because what we did at the truth commission is we try to establish who did what to whom and Creighton official record that would stand the test of time and be handed down from generation to generation, and I think the trick here is we still don't yet have an official reckoning when it comes to breaks of when comes to the US election and many more elections, I would add about who did what to whom on the platform Facebook and I think that what we need to do is create a record which says it is no longer permissible to spread the lie that Facebook hasn't been used as a platform that is demonstrably affected the results of elections. And once we establish. That as a fact, then let the remedies begin. Thank you. Hey, roger. So you're someone who's benefited from the platform, you have a lot of friends, and Silicon Valley, or people that, you know, you're highly influential yet, we see this happening over the last couple of years. And you've written a book, what else have you done? Have you gone to Washington? Are you working with? Are you bringing thank tank together like what more can you do? Particularly I have I go to Washington every single month. So the book tells the story of all of that going there in the summer of twenty seventeen building a coalition Tristan, effectively triggering the hearings that happened a training, the committees to do the hearings working with the Federal Trade Commission, working with the anti-trust division of the Justice department, we're doing our best, but there's a very small number of us. Okay. And we're looking for volunteers. And if you'd like to volunteer, my basic point is don't look at me, as the gating item here, there's so much to be done here in so many smart, people do the thing that you can do, but significant part of the tech briefing of many members. Of congress in the Senate came from your group. Well, Rene duress, did most of it? And, you know, the thing I would say is, is, you know, until the fall, twenty seventeen congress new is certainly knew the sun would come up tomorrow, that it didn't need to worry about tech. Right. So we're catching up. Hi, my name's Samantha essence. I just wanted to touch on two things that I heard that I think are really important to digest one Chrissy who actually said it, which was concept of kind of selling back, our data or licensing out. And I think what's really critical, we understand there would be a huge disenfranchised group of people who would have no idea what that truly means. And that's part of the reason why right now, they're openly just giving away their data to these companies for the use of game or any of those types of things. So I want to keep that in mind second, I want to circle back to this concept that humans are neatly good because history tells us. Sometimes they're not right. And this, this concept of greed, so you talked about would they if they could, you know, wouldn't hurt their business model trade doing business as so that they can really dig into the good. And I I'm going to say, I don't know because I think there is so much greed in our society, and perhaps some of the behavioral things we need to study is, why do we allow greet to drive us and. And. Wouldn't wouldn't when you start thinking about data analyzing this way it becomes that. They're paradoxes in this. So if you think about Facebook as a fifty five billion dollar revenues company, there's about two point three two point four billion regular uses basically, the company's getting about twenty twenty five dollars per user per year from advertisers, but that is massively tilted towards the US in the US that getting more than one hundred dollars. I want to say odd revenue per user, much of the rest of the world, they're getting almost nothing. I mean one way if you wanted to put it this way, the current structure is the rich subsidizing service for the poor? The data of the poor is not worth that much getting connection, or whatever for much less money than those of us who are being served expensive adds to buy houses or whatever. And so in trying to imagine a different model for Facebook. It's really hard, right? Like I think Jaron Lanier came. Here last year and said, the problem is that we're trying to get to this stuff of free. We should be selling service, if you were to sell a service, it's not clear that you could have that business model work because in the US, you'd have to charge over one hundred dollars per person, which would mean a lot of people wouldn't sign up what you mean, you'd have to charge more than that. The might not be a business there. What, what if we don't fix these problems? That's a risk. We may be forced to run because the thing we have to get prepared for right? It's the governments are getting really unhappy with the bad stuff that's going on. Right. New Zealand looks at this stuff. Right. The UK is thinking about much more onerous stuff. It's not crazy. Imagine a country shutting down services, the next time something goes wrong to keep things from spreading early. And I just think it's incumbent on the industry to get into the game. And recognize that the business model as it's currently being practice is not sustainable. I think Bill joy has. The when information is so powerful that it's a weapon, then we have to think about regulating information. So we're facing that with this companies now it's distasteful to regulate the information in a way that suspensive to our belief in free speech, but we've done for far too long as exempted the technology industry from liability in the days of software, they had, they didn't have to the congress passed a law. They were exempt from general merchant, to -bility warranty of fitness of the software. Microsoft, couldn't be sued if for consequential damages of any kind for flaws in their software. So it seems to me that the kind of exemption, we've given these guys that they can publish whatever they want, and they don't take any responsibility. When they're clearly a publisher as much as the newspapers aperture is unacceptable. Now, you could say, well that won't solve this general problem that we've been talking about here, but I think that's not true because if they were forced to behave in a way that they had essentially lures. Called strict liability for certain of the things that they published that would force their business models to be renovated, in a way, that would fix many of these other other problems, aside effect. I'll take a single example, this issue of the sandy, hook, parents and Facebook. They were publishing which drove the sandy hook parents into hiding, if a newspaper had done that they would be out of business, and they've got exemption from liability from that should be removed. My name's Osceola fund, the conversation, actually, quite ironic and interesting because an African foreign entities have been meddling in the political autonomy of African sovereign nations for so long. So it's actually quite ironic for the first time to see you western entities deal with their own creation. And how smells there on? I mean long before cobalt was found in Congo. This has been going on. So I guess my question to you is, how can we think differently about the capitalistic framework? Right. Ken investors start to incentivize or behaviorally, manipulate us to support and give our data to companies that incentivize us. You know, Mike, either from a data tax of some sort and support companies that are doing the right thing, so to speak with our data, not manipulating, so really simply put let's remember the capitalism requires someone historically, the government to set rules and apply enforcement equally across the whole population. We currently do not have that in the United States of America, so reinstating that would be great. And then I think changing the value system back to the old model of recognizing that every business has at least five constituencies, right. Shareholders employees, the communities where they live, which might even be viewed as the whole country in the whole world supply. And customers, I think changing that philosophy really help. But I do think that this is about a broken culture of what used to be called capitalism is now something else. But your point about colonialism is, that's exactly how I see it. So I think the instinct of pretty much ever knew comes to Ted is, as a problem self you Roger have highlighted in the most graphic way some really truly deeply intense problems that we're facing now. And I just, you know, I full of dread. But I also hope that people are out there, working to solve these problems, and I would like to wrap this up by telling us, what is your prognosis, do you think we can build a way out of this? Regulate away out of this. A combination of all the about. So I'm actually incredibly optimistic in the past year in the United States. I think we've had five teacher labor actions that worked with. No blowback the air traffic, controllers that partial sickout. Ended the government shutdown McDonald's abandoned their fight against the fifteen dollar minimum wage. Elizabeth Warren, introduced antitrust policy that bunch Republicans said to me, I can't believe we let a democrat beat us to the punch, and this idea. Right. Because it was teddy Roosevelt and William Howard tafs basic approach, I'm going out there and what I find is that everybody I meet, whether they're on FOX or mess NBC, whether on FOX business, or CNBC, whether they're on conservative talk radio or NPR everybody, sits there and goes I get it. There's something wrong, and we all have a role to play in this. And the thing is, we don't have to give up the products we love because these businesses are not going to go away, if they do what I want them to do. I mean, there's so many pieces of Facebook that are unmonitored is it could be monetize without hurting. Anybody I mean this is nuts. It is not this is about a power argument. Okay. Can they do it their way or do they have to actually sit at a table and talk? About the right thing to do. I believe that Mark and Cheryl, Larry and Sergei and everybody else's Volve. This is capable of getting this thing. Right. And I I wanna see a truth commission. I want to see an end to digital colonialism. Right. I wanna see everybody benefiting from the next wave of technology. I wanna see the next big thing. But I, we gotta get together and say it isn't about left to right. It's about right and wrong. Well. Or somebody if you're listening, if you want to have a conversation, I'm here, brench, listen, Roger McNamee and. Take community. Got that. Thank you for coming and taking pot and what is probably the most important conversation of this moment. Thank you. Okay. That's a wrap for this episode. Do consider sharing it with anyone, you know who wants to Deepa into ideas. Please consider rating and reviewing Ted interview on apple itunes, or wherever you listen to this show was produced by Michelle Quint and edited by Sharon mushy. He production manager is Roxanne high lash mix engineer David Herman and Athena is by Allison Leyton Brown. Thanks so much for listening, c- against it. For more TED talks to Ted dot com.
Episode 282: On the edge of the mosh pit
"Jimmy? You're wake. That's a good thing. Yes. Six six Oh nine right now. Has the time transition has have you switched over? Has Your body switchover to like the time California time? Not Really I mean I'm still waking up it's five every day. Today Yeah Yeah Still Waking Up and then I got a little early I actually wake up at five and kind of. Flip. Flop around like a fish until like. Nine or ten, but yesterday was a really early call ahead to be at the stage at six thirty. So. I'm just a mile away from the entrance to the studio. So I have a quickie and. So. Yesterday was an early day today obviously was an early date because I wanted to get ready because, right after don I gotta go so I had to get ready and you take a shower and stuff. and. It's good. It's good out here. It's nice. Haven't salt. It's nice break. Aaron's doing a good job holding things down. And so there is actually good stuff happening back in. New York wearing the past that travel and you know I always make sure there was really not much to do. But obviously, the websites doing well. So those guys are with the doing stuff for the website got a couple of new products to talk about the next few weeks some. Things. Are Good. Take a plane. It's nice to know things are happening in. I come here and play. Play like exact procedures what's different about the show this year? Well you know it's funny. There's some really good artists on the show some really like. Not, that were not that they weren't in the past but. The people with a little bit more of a focused talent that psych. That the you know the show's been out obviously a couple of years and got some time to be talked about and watched in Moldova so. You getting a little bit of a different casting and I probably said this last week but a lot of the people nearly everybody in the. Contestants know me and no youtube no all of us. So I don't know if that had to do with the show or did just digging more into the pool or where making more impression, but it's it's nice to have. Youtube fans and I'm talking to working with some of the people in like right on camera like Oh, this is the tricky taught me and you bandsaw tips video or whatever, and like it's really nice. You know. Making that type of penetration me, of course, because I'm there but they're talking about all of Youtube in general. So that's great. And You know no one's quelling any competition like everybody's happy about the free flow of ideas. I contrast that with like four five years ago when Nick and I were pitching a TV show. And every time we went into network, his agents would look at me and go do not talk about youtube they don't want to hear it. So. You know it's a different story now. Obviously. But it's it's nice. It's really nice and you know being the third season in a row and and just about almost everybody from season one is back when I say everybody mainly. Soundmen and people setting up. The. Arts apartment. To so many little divisions on a big giant expensive show like this, and you see all the same familiar faces and now because of all the series regulations, everybody has on a mask and shield. So everybody looks like they're going to do surgery. So. Everybody has shield on and and. When you went to contest and soon as it's all done they like there's a guy, the assistant directors always on a big loudspeakers like everybody put your shields on cameras down. And then halfway through the day, everybody has to leave the stage and they come in disinfect everything wipe down every handle of every tool. They really very serious about. An. Like they see you congregating like The Corona virus. Few few of them it's their job to separate people. Whatever it was an inconvenience for a few hours a day one in now everyone's kind of used to it. I just coming into it. Now that's been going on obviously this productions been going on. For several days. If not weeks before I got here you know the stage is all set up. I wrote to the producers like is this really going to happen when I was in new? York? I'm like so many things I could do things cookbook and. Just taking on responsibilities is like is this really she's like. The Barn is at a storage and set up on the stage. So if it doesn't happen, she goes I'm big trouble. That's like a huge effort. They take this entire barn apart into sections and store it. Bring it all in build it, put back together. So it's pretty really credible. But Yeah I'm happy having fun and I. I'm definitely not relaxing on camera. Now it's an ad I have licensed to just wander in and out of if I see somebody struggling I just wander in and help at yesterday heads a couple of good good moments. I'll tell you one here a moment. I had that had nothing to do with being on camera. So yesterday there's a girl. Did you guys ever see the machine that? That makes a rug. It's incredible. I was watching from afar I'd never seen when a person. It's a it's like a handheld stitching machine that makes a rug. You embroider the rug backing material from the back and it puts a loop on the front. And she was used that an I and after a few minutes everybody, they got enough footage everybody went away and. And then I noticed about five people looking for something and I come over I'm like, what's the matter she goes? Oh, I lost the the main screw that runs the mechanism fell off of the machine. It's like a hand held sewing machine and it was just a both that makes the machine do it does and everybody's looking for it then after a couple of. Two minutes sitting talking like the amount of people looking for doubled. So everyone's just kick in the grass looking for this bolts. And I pulled up my ice pick with a magnet on it and I want I wanted around the grass a little bit. Nothing happened and then I go. Where will you should? I was sitting right here and then I just wanted it and click a held it up and the. Like twelve thirteen people they cheered. Ice Pick for the win. But that was not there were no cameramen around. I pull that thing in a few people like you and your stupid is back you know and just kind of wanted jokingly like it's GonNa. Come to me and Harvard over the ground about an inch and I did it one time and it didn't happen I. Did it the second time in and like a few people around me heard the click like no way no way and I held enough like I. Got Pulled aside from this down, it was so funny. So. That's my TV set story, but everything's good. I'm working on a blog and I should have it ready probably by this weekend. It's I was going to ask you about the the on camera. Lake. acknowledgement of covid because I saw a commercial. I mean obviously everybody in the world knows it's gone on so to completely gloss over it. act like it's not an issue with production is kind of silly because I mean. It's just a thing but but I saw a commercial saw commercial about this show the other day and they like leaned in it was a fictional show and they leaned into it to where the characters were reacting to it, and so you know the in the commercial, the actors actually had masks and things on as part of the show and that got me wondering like I wonder how many shows are going to you know just hit it head on and like some of the people are going to be a masks stranded the. Production, whatever well, obviously everybody's a mass here and it's funny I'm I'm GonNa make a joke at one point during the show course, the cameraman who have a giant camera on this shoulder they have a little plastic shield which covers the other half of their face that is in front of the camera and they all fiddling with it. It's it's like it's some of it's a little over the top. Now, the tournament he's like nobody's near the cameraman nobody gets close the cat like no one gets within like eight feet of cameraman ever. As you have the camera to his face and he's got a massive Ken. But at the same time, he's got like a little six by six shields glued to his Ip's. I was going to make a little shield for the tip of my pencil. Just flick is a joke. But Onset. There are sanitary wipes and alcohol and there are masks in some cases better out in the open. So I would assume I got first day of like nobody cares if that's out them, you know I'm not even GonNa say anything but there was a lot of covert precautionary stuff is in and around the workshop. And in and around the in the bar area. So. It's just there. It's present in nobody's tried it. But the same time everybody that's on camera is not. Is Not in a mask but there is hand sanitizer pretty much everywhere on camera just like another product in the shop. So. That's really where it's at. Gotcha. Cool Well. David would. You well, we killing ahead are. Last Saturday. So that means it is make new rings time of the year. And I think last week I talked about it. I thought about making them off camera just just to do it. And we. Tried to make them on camera and then failed terribly it was just. I mean. And it didn't fail right away. It failed at like two PM. So like a whole day of shooting. And it turns out the way that I'm making them very similar to last year just different types of woods. This whangarei Would not bend without breaking, cracking It's just too brittle. and. Getting splinters from the Wednesday to give you a little fun splinter superfund that I did I i. did he usually I do and I did this time as as well and the funny thing is as running my hand along the piece I got a splinter and it wasn't a big deal pulled it out and then I complained off camera Dan and then like five minutes later. Monday. My finger long piece again you're playing with danger you're playing with. So I. Think. I'm going to the video is going to be made just totally failing at this particular design, and then I might make. design that come up with I might just take like little step shots of it as I go along. Then in the video say like I did make rings at work. But. This video is about the rinse it didn't work. So it'll. It was really disappointing. And So we stopped at two o'clock and we started on this. Pet bed invention that I'm working on a cool. So wheezes he's getting really old and I've made a few pet beds in the past on my channel but he can't his he's outliving his body. So he he can't get up onto the lip of the pet beds that we've made easily. And so right now, the the best solution is just to throw the cushion right on the floor. but the has some problems he it will move and. His blanket when he tries to make a bed with blanket, blanket gets thrown off and. And it's it's frustrating for him. And so I'm constantly like Tuck him in. So I ended up to of half inch stock. Square stock. basically, it looks like like bedposts. There's too long post up front and then to. Shorter bedposts in the back. and. That's Kinda framed and the bed slides into their into the bed can't move left rider back and then the blanket. Held on with magnets over the top to bedposts. Will. It's almost like he's going into a cave and so he can go in and then the blink it doesn't go anywhere but it's still draped enough where he can do his little bedroom. And make his bed. So I. Think it's really cool. I it's it's dry and right now are we I was working last night and the paint is dry on there and so I haven't presented it to him yet. So I haven't seen bits going gonNA work, but I'm pretty sure this is GonNa work and I thought it was a really cool idea. very crudely welded. I. Saw A. Few welding projects have been really good like I've been really happy with the way. Everything is looking out and then this one I think. I was just so frustrated with the rings now working out that I just did not care rushing through and it wasn't getting good penetration and One of the. Tacking. That was just welding and that definitely makes the metal band was you don't want it to. So I'm trying to bend it back and then the well snaps like it didn't even it was just it was such a frustrating day. but it's all GonNa work out. But in the moment I was just like I'm paying somebody to be here film in me and everything is failing and it wasn't it wasn't a good day but. But it'll make a couple of good videos for sure. The willing is weird like that for me in that. I don't do it often enough to like keep the all of the things that you need to think about and just the process and all that stuff like front of mind and so if I do a project that has a whole lot of welding by the end of the project, I'm like, Oh yeah. I'm comfortable with this. Again, I remember to do all of the things and make sure the are clean and and then when I don't do it for a couple of months jumped back into it thinking I'm at that same point but I'm not. I'm forgetting to clean the middle forgetting to tack I'm forgetting to turn the gas on constantly how and. So, then I'll do a quick project and it looks like garbage the welds do and then everybody calls me out like I still don't know how to well then I'm like do but it's just a matter of practice and I forgot to do the thing with the gas or or I ran out of gas. You know two months ago and forgot to fill it up, and then now I have to do a thing and I, don't have any gas from a welder or whatever the case is but. It is weird when there's something like that that you don't do often enough to keep the you know all the little details like front of mind gazette me and welding. That's that's a constant struggle. You will notice in almost every single one of my in projects I am painting the piece Matt Black that way nobody on camera can see the wells or make. Nice. But I don't good lately just until this project is I was just frustrated and I wasn't doing properly didn't tack started welding and maybe at times the pieces clean and or I wasn't. It wasn't getting hot enough for I. Don't know I was just I was frustrated and that definitely affected. What I was doing I I really believe that you if not being a professional welder who does it every day who's been trained properly, there are good days and bad days some days it's just no matter what you do. You can't get a good vibe. You can't get a good flow definitely feel that from time to time, there's a welder on sat and had a teacher few people how to weld. and. One Guy who is funny he says he's only ever tig welded. He wanted to learn how to weld and so he just wants to the Internet and bought it take wilder these never done anything but that. I was almost didn't realize there were options but. He, he was all nervous to make weld and I brought him over to the machine and showed them how to do it, and I basically said if he's done that you can do this just try it. and. He did it and he did it perfectly and he looked up and goes. I'm getting rid of my take well buying one of these. This is this unbelievable and he did a really jolly honestly better than I would have done. 'cause he's so meticulous as a person like what he does and how he does it. I go you absolutely. Are Fine 'cause he was really nervous because he thought the process was. Going to be more complicated I'm like Eve already started out at the most complicated process. So everything should be fine with you. Yeah. After the last welling video, I did was the little canoe cart carrier thing that was clean. It was intentionally at thanks. It was an intentional quick. I just needed a utility thing to do this thing and so I wasn't gonNA worry about you know how pretty the wells works it didn't matter they just had to work. And it, and it was one of those where I had a general idea and I started building it and then had to come up with little thing, and then this clip and then figure out hinge for the you know just McKenna, making it up along. In in that process, you skip a lot of stuff right you. You don't worry about like. Why didn't get all the paint off of this reclaimed piece of angle iron on the US whereas I should have because that would make the world better but. I'm impatience I'm just GonNa Stick It on there and weld through multiple layers of paint. And not think about it. And then. So as soon as we put the video out, everybody's like goodness, what is wrong with your wealth and? Wellbeing clear a couple layers of paint on the thing. Is like I took a shortcut because it didn't matter. To it after that and the comments about those types of things I was like you know what it would make. It would make. ME. Better. And me not have to worry about the response to the things. We just don't ever zoom in on wells anymore. There's no need to I never Zuma wells because it's not a welding it's on a welding channel. I just I think I making channel and I use. A few weeks ago and it was kinda clear to me when I say like I had a moment of clarity like a personal I didn't really make an explicit thing about it but I basically like. I'm a problem solver and I solve problems and in the process of making things in solving various things. Oh, I need to connect these the way to solve that problem is to it. It's not like I am not a welder, per se but weld welding is just one of the things I used to get to where I'm going. So I don't feel the need to do like what Jodi has all types of you know secret proprietary ways of filming. What he's doing because what he's doing is the science of what his his channel is about. You. Know if I had to put it in quotes, the science of what my channel is about as just inspiring and China's solve problems and cool ways. So I don't have to zoom in on the various. methods. Also a bad at it. So WanNA show it off. Yeah big of a skipping steps and my in my head I'm like people always talk about tacking everything up and then welding. So the heat doesn't cause the metal to bend and somewhere in the back of my head. I I've said, that's overkill. especially for this little dog bed I can just welled up this and it'll be fine and it totally wasn't. It totally threw everything out to square and. Yes. I wonder if it's actually the opposite case where like the smaller thinner project that you're working on those tax matter more you know if you had like this two giant eight phrases, a metal that you were going to be you know like welding across may be doing a bunch of individual taxes, not as big of a deal or something or the skills opposite. Yeah. But it was a funny realization for me just to be like you know what? I don't need to show close up of any of these wells. I'm not teaching people how to well, that's not the point I'm not trying to show how good I am welding. So why even like? Let's do the five foot kind of shot. That's good enough to show that they're connected. So. Anyway. Let's see what have I been up to. We are taking a break this week or not putting a video well. this month has five Thursdays in it. So we have kind of decided when that's the case that we're GONNA. We're GONNA. Catch one of them off and not not stress about like always just trying to do the weekly thing if we don't have to and so it's kind of weird to have planned ahead to have a week where Ridge don't put anything out. But you know that's what we're doing and we went ahead and finished up next week switches a renovation. Video. Similar to one. We've done in the past but kind of a new a new situation for it so. That's done, and then we actually have the next one done already and we're working on the next one, which is pretty cool to start to get a little bit of a lead again, show off It's it's a lot of work to get ahead I mean it's not like. It's not like I'm just like, Hey, check this out. We finish another video. We are like scrambling constantly to try to overlap things in like well, while we're waiting on this paint to drive in the we do this thing so that it's a little. You know it's two steps closer to being done or. Whatever when you're two weeks ahead and you put out the video that you made two three weeks ago. Are you so disconnected from that project that you don't even feel like promoting it. Well no, but also. The promotion happens differently here. Now, like we we prepare the material for the promotion like the downs and all that stuff with the video, and then we have a scheduler where we put it in all schedule then. And so? It. kind of that stuff is prepared ahead of time. and. Then we just kind of like back off and move onto the next thing, and then that one is prepared in the now is prepared. So it's it's a little different in that. It's not president of like top of mind but I also don't really have to interact with it that much once it's you know going out, it's the subsidy setup But. Yeah. So we're we're looking at. The next couple of months and actually I guess through the end of the year, we're trying to plan out all the different things we're going to do and start to prepare those and some of them were Kinda. Bigan. Are GonNa take some extra effort so We're beginning to work through those and we're doing some different types of videos that we've never done before, which is fun and also a little weird. Going into a video mailing. All right. Well, how are we going to do this like we've never had to figure out how to whatever? And instead of just jumping into the production side of it like we have in the past were stopping a little bit and thinking through. All right. Well, we wanted to have this tone. We want to cover these types of things and how arena you actually do that camera ahead of time, which I think is good. Thinking ahead not not a bad thing but. Yeah. So that's kind of what we've been up to. I don't think we really have any kind of a topic. Today. I have There's a lot of noises happen. Behind me there's people in the office but I've been thinking a lot about social media stuff lately in we I was listening to Novum questions, which is destined and Matt's Podcasts X. Podcasts if you don't listen to. But they talked about the social dilemma which would watched and brought up a couple of weeks ago I think I still haven't watched it yet, but I listened to their conversation about it but even before that. I've just had this kinda like sour taste in my mouth toward. Social. It's weird. I started trying to make a differentiation this morning in my head between social media and like promotional media because I think maybe what we called social media has become promotional and they just overlapped in a way that we weren't maybe as a people expecting. But I've just had this like sourness toward it over the last year. And have wanted to just really not be a part of it and not from A. You know a Lotta people talk about misinformation and that is a problem. I'm not talking about that ought to people talk about you know the perceptions that people have of themselves based on looking at other people. I'm not talking about that. It's just like. I just don't WANNA be. The sounds a little scary to say I, don't WanNa be as connected to people as I have to be to do my job online. Not Person Like I want to have personal connections. But when you do the social media thing at scale, you have this like open door connection to anybody that wants to say something to you whether you receive it or not whether you respond or not e still have this. Portal directly to your face for everybody who's ever seen anything that you've done and I think there's something about that. that. Doesn't sit right with me. And that's on top of all of the other social media. You know issues that come with it that I think are covered in the social dilemma and I think a I haven't seen this social dilemma. Then a lot of people keep asking me because Rene Duress is in it and we we've all met renate there s a or camp and when not related, and she's not my wife, a lot of people right to sell your wife in the Social Salama. Rene we just share the same name. I mean we might be related through DNA but we don't know. But we met. Through. Make magazine of places because she used to work for O'Reilly media but anyway. What I'm fine. I'm fine I find that some people and this is no groundbreaking statement. Some people just share too much of themselves and they get a little hooked on it and you could watch the addiction starts to take place and I'm not saying that I'm not addicted in my own way to instagram and everything else. I. Think I am but when people start. The real in depth emotional side of them and you know when they start talking about like. Situations with their family but then they turn around and say, Hey, this is how you make stuff it. That's what it gets a little bit strange I my buddy who I hung out with the other at the airport on instagram he doesn't really like instagram but at the same time, he feels a little bit disconnected from business and it was like you gotta get instagram. You've gotTa Cheryl. This whacking is that you want to sell. His and he's like I just wish that you didn't have to have an you know this is Where the world is going unfortunately or fortunately it depends on how you know how benefits you as you don't have to talk about your personal. Judgments should personal instincts just talk about the art in which you want to promote a like instagram to me is like my art gallery and in to get a little bit personal but it really is in many nearly always related to making it ma- making things and making. You know your career your life. If that's what you WanNa, do I have a lot of other personal things that I don't talk about casually I get frustrated like the other day I used it as a tool to ask people what's going on with my Mac and you guys remember that some you guys helped me and turns out by the way that that glitch only happens on certain EXP-. Search engines it doesn't. It doesn't happen on Safari, which a lot of people said. Oh. There you go. Okay. I get onto safari on the computer that I already have might email on. So it's Kinda useless but. Anyway. That's the longest story and I also just to set the record straight here in for now I do have dropbox and I do have google drive 'cause everyone's like once you just dropbox and. They're like the semi the linked to join dropbox dropbox for years but. To diverge a little to divert a little bit is when I'm talking to certain clients and friends and people, and I'm like just emailed me the file I go into my computer just POPs up right there and I could just download it and then go to the download file and then work on it there, and that's what i. just kind of got used to that workflow but I do have dropbox in May do use dropbox. Like. When I'm at the art department talking to the art department here at the show like just emailed me the file then I go to my computer and figured I could just open and putting the downloads on the windows computer. That's where I had that little hiccup. But. I think in general, we see other people over sharing. and. Then we emotionally like a my part of that. Like I see like when you see people crying on instagram and then the next day like, Hey, everybody happy Tuesday like wait a minute two days ago. You were crying literally about some family issue and now here you are talking about hammers and nails. I think. You know and it's great and you know people really have a sense of community and some of these things but. I think sometimes, you gotta pull back a little bit because it's too. It's too much for your audience I. Think this is just my personal opinion. You know some people really have found their way through social media and it's family and so I believe that too I mean, I say it all the time. My my closest friends are friends that I met you guys and and my whole crew of here. Or friends I met through instagram and Youtube and I wouldn't have met them otherwise. But I see people again our community Sharon to many personal instances, and then you turn right around sharing you know work related stuff. I think you know maybe the right way to do it is to keep. One commercially can focus in one family focus. If you really want to I wouldn't do that I, just keep my family stuff my family you know like whatever struggles me and Taylor going on that are non work related or not making related nobody knows you know I don't I share a little bit about Willie only because people are inspired by the story but you know I'm not sitting here saying you know, I, saved this guy's life you know because it's whatever it is what it is you know if you know you And I said it's just I. Think it's just important to really know where that line is and just keep it work related. That is in a but a lot of a lot of people have instagram's at art work that it's just they're instagram. And if you're gonNA open up online, he just you know it's basically putting yourself at a little bit of a risk. Because I see some people really get addicted to the comments, the checks and the likes into this you know. It's It's strange. Strange Roby Living But As an artist somebody that wants to. Be Successful in Business I. Think you definitely need it. And I said to my buddy desert the other day I was like I get consulted a lot for TV shows. They say, can you? Can we need a person that does this? Do you know anybody and I sent him like five or seven social media profiles of people that are no good. and. Then I'll think of somebody that's great number like this guy's really good. He's really good but you know I haven't seen his work on time and need doesn't like social media but he's really good. And then that person gets ignored because the person doesn't have a visual portfolio accessible right to everybody so. Just, you know you gotta remember why you started social media. You saw the business like, for instance, facebook is really all family mostly family and political points of view and to me it's like it's it's like a mosh pit and I stay out of that mosh pit just like when I used to go to punk shows I would just kinda hang on the edge. That's me at facebook of just kinda hanging on the edge like if someone comes in me I'm like, Oh yeah. Hey, how I bro, and then like they go back in the mosh pit like. I'm on the edge of the mosh pit on facebook but everything else. Is a little bit more relaxed a little bit more easy going. So facebook is a big problem for a lot of people. I find myself in the trap of. Of posting to get a reaction to read the comments to feel good and then that as your. Profiles get bigger and bigger. You get more of that and it is released just a A. And they talk about this, they talk about this in the movie, but it's just like. I found myself like. I don't have to post on Instagram I don't have to go read all the comments on Youtube or post something on twitter to to feel good. But you you find yourself going back in, it's addicting and it's so. It's just. really it really does bother me, I rarely use my personal facebook hormone business facebook anymore just because the the comments can be so crazy and negative and people are very polarized right now. and. I don't know. I. For me, the INSTAGRAM twitter don't benefit business all that much. It's just a place for me to post stuff every once in a while. So twitter. You know once a week I posted a link to a video and then the rest of it is just like weird thoughts that I have and then instagram is just like nice shots of the projects that I'm working on and. I don't know they don't help the business. And I think the really bad for me mentally. And that's something you gotta decide for yourself but I was GONNA say. Again I keep it all business related in the in the way that when you start getting bad comments and angry comments in mean comments, I always tell younger youtubers. Because now, you're in the deep end of the ocean you like. Columbus you're out of the inlet. Now you're with the sharks and you know your your your trip is is well underway. You know your journey as well. underway. This is like like You see these like fairy tales what people go from one to the other and they meet all these demons and all these things in the route that then they get to the end and they win doesn't million fairy tales have all these these negative. Impact the ego and those are the mean trolls because. You are now like. In the deep end of the pool is what I say. This is where all the strains are in the older kids that are like dunk you and do cannibals next year I always make up these metaphors whereas you leave the comfortable part of the poor schist, your friends and family. But now you promoting video that you want to try and get out there and someone's got us a saw. That's not how you well. That means you're going through the dock forest to get to the good side where you start meeting advertisers and like, Oh i, really like what you do you know so I, think it's a good thing when you start getting crazy trolls just means as more and more people being exposed to stuff and again like. Out of a thousand people. Almost eighty percent ninety percent won't say anything but they'll enjoy it. And you know they'll be at the don't enjoy it but most people enjoy it and they all. That's really cool I'm going to take that away with me, and then some somebody who just doesn't have any social skills would be like the way to do it. You know and it's like, okay, that's what you really feel like Sayi- great. I'll just ignore you. So The one thing that because we all get the negative comments which very small percentage of the comments are negative but we get them and they they affect us in a certain way because of that. I. Whenever I comment on somebody else's youtube twitter instagram whatever it's all I'd never use any negative words. It's always like this is awesome. It's good because I've experienced so much that negatively that it has helped me become a positive commenter on other platforms. Yeah. I've never negatively come into anything ever in my life a always just encouraged instead amazing great job and. You know it's My mother always said, if you don't have anything nice to say, just don't say anything at all. So for me in really quiet, you can only imagine what's going on in my head. And I mean. Just a little thing about me like I've. When I get some sort of harassment or some sort of a thing online that makes me feel bad or down or whatever. those are the Times that I immediately think somebody else is feeling like I'm feeling right now somebody else needs to be lifted up and so a lot of times when you look at my twitter every once in a while, you'll see a random like positive I hope you're having a good day type thing and that is me reacting to. Not having a good day or not having a positive thing. You know the way that I wanted it to be or whatever. because. I do think that we all of us can step into those situations where we're having a negative input and be like well, we can take that and we can give it away to everybody else and we can be turned to everybody else that we're gonNA deal with or we can stop it and we can flip it around and look for a way to be positive to to everybody else you know like we're we're in charge of how that stuff goes through us to the rest of the world. And so a Lotta Times, you'll see me reacting that way and that's what that is. In case somebody's curious in when you see a nice comment that doesn't mean I need consoling. Just. Saying. That is. Those are those are times when I actively know that I need to. Take Control of that conversation, take control of my reaction to it and change it so that even with all of this social media stuff like I'm not really even talking about comments we've talked about that Ad Nauseam right? We have killed that conversation about native comments in the past. The thing that I think I've gotten soured on a little bit over the last year or so is. This. The thing about comparison where we Whether you're comparing yourself to other people from like a man. They're really good at what they do or mandate a are really pretty and they looked better than me at this or they have a better machine or a better car better. We know that type of comparison. I. Think. The thing that I've found that I feel uneasy about is when I see other people. So good at. Interacting and engaging in like they're constantly sharing what they're doing from from a business perspective. They're like, here's the things that are going on. Here's all the stuff and they're just like so up on it and I'm like, I just don't want to share everything and that makes me feel like. Maybe. I'm not that good at social media or maybe I'm not a an outgoing enough person to be doing know I. I'm doing what we're doing. Maybe I could be more effective if I were more outgoing that's the thing that comes to mind but I'm not and I don't WanNa be and so there's this weird like well, I can do more of that thing that other people are doing to try to like be more productive or you know whatever grow more. I don't want to does that make me like in my in the wrong thing or am I reacting to social media and the wrong way or like you know? So it's a bunch of that type of stuff. If you think back. Twenty years ago. None of this mattered. Not, a single bit of because each person was dealing with the interactions that they had face to face. All. Throughout their day and those are the ones that matter and those were the ones that they had to care about like. Well, am I sharing too much with the person standing in front of me and my not sharing not over sharing standing in front over share remember that for in overseer. But like you know there was a time in the not. Not that long ago where this type of DC deciding whether you should overreact on camera or share too much or not. Sure enough for Syria personal and your business like none of that stuff even existed. Because you were running into people face to face, and those were the interactions that mattered and. I. Just, think more and more about that these days when I'm. You know constantly lifting my phone and looking all these people who are just like they. I'm doing this today. I'm doing this and check this then I'm doing this. Then it's awesome to see I'm happy for those people I'm proud of a lot of those people because they're my friends and they're doing awesome stuff. But the thing comes in when I start going. Well, I mean should I be doing that? Like should I? This like presentation voice to camera just so that I have something in people's feeds and like look noodles really gross. Like if that's naturally you awesome do it. But if if I feel like I'm having to conjure that stuff to just to be a part of the conversation like anal- I don't like that. And I'm not sure what to do about it that that's another thing is I'm there's no I don't have like a man. We should be this way or we shouldn't be this way. It's not that it's like I'm just confronted with the thing I'm not sure how to handle. US As a community and then. As you channels and businesses in I, keep calling it a business ultimately because that's really what it is. It's a business at a lot fringe benefits. We have lots of great friends and lots of great relationships and a great community where we could go on social media and ask a question and get some really good advice. What you're doing is exactly what it should be doing. Because you businesses growing you successfully families healthy friends a healthier coworker there're earl healthy you doing what you should be done. As time progresses if you decide, you want something different, you do it and you're GonNa make a healthy choice. You're not gonNa make a choice because. In a jealous or envious in the type of person. So yeah. I mean, I think indefinitely for me personally it's there have been different phases of that. You know in this job where like sometimes I wanNA. Share a lot of stuff because I'm really excited about it or I'm doing things that I think are while to share other times it's just like I just I don't WanNa talk about it took him around. I. Don't WanNa hold my phone up to my face and like talking. To, the video thing, no one's GonNa notice if you bail if you bail out for a little while no one's GonNa notice in a I'm obviously not as active right now 'cause some here. Yeah, I. Think all of that pressure is me putting it on myself know I'm not saying it all that I feel the pressure from other people but I think there is that natural comparison game when you're consuming if I wasn't consuming instagram. There wouldn't be anything to compare myself to write low I. Think. That's one of the problems that I've identified for myself is just the I don't think the things that consumer bad. But I think the amount in constant. You know consuming all of these people that I've ever met over the last seven years everything that they do constantly think adds up on you and you start to do that comparison whether you're healthier now. You. Start figuring. You know that you're comparing yourself to these people. I'm obviously alone a lot and I don't have my shops like tell us it's me. She's like Oh my God what are you doing? You don't have a declawed cat you don't have to shop around you. But in all reality onset like now that we're back on, we didn't go to set for almost a full week. Now. That I'm on said playing on the CNC machine I'm coming up with ideas and. Every now and again I feel like you get full, you get to the point really seen everything I've watched every youtube video full I can't do this anymore. It's becoming like me just a more interested in the action of swiping than I am seeing what I'm swiping past and so you get fulop. Good. And so I then I make a conscious decision open notebook. And try and regurgitate some of the inspiration you've sucked him whether you've sucked unconsciously or subconsciously or just you start looking at callers, you're not really taking in what it is. I forced myself especially now when I'm on the road, open your notebook and just jot down concept's 'cause that's like that's the meat and potatoes of you know my existence right now is creating things and taking this all in how can be regurgitated to become something that I? That's tangible and fulfilling. Whether. It's you know a new shell full whether it's you know a new car project, the whatever it is, and in in my citizen, my dressing room at the studio. I. Have you know they they know you wanNA play. So there's like a pat on your tables you get this little room with. Maybe, I'll do some instagram stories about the room. It's nothing special and but there's a little pad, an idea pet sitting there with a cup of pencils and I said everyday that's like my brain dump have one kind of going in my notebook that a carry with me. But every day I look at that I'm like I got to put two or three ideas on that list, and that's the list that's going to kind of make up the next year in a way it may be they'll be things that jump in and ahead of all that. But that's like the net result that me sucking and all these visuals and all this social media. Spit it back out. Those triplets going to become will is little lists this words on a page, and then those triplets are GonNa? Then become video project. So you know if you if you consciously try and figure out how to like take it then. What is it? Why is it? How is it? When will it be something else you? That's good advice. That's really good. I think another thing that I'm trying to do in the last few days I've tried to get. We have a bunch of friends bunch of people that we have met through the Internet who don't live where we live and where you know we're kind of in touch over twitter or comments or something will occasionally tax people. But. There's people that are on my mind. Often and I. Don't know why they're dislike I think about and I wonder how they're doing and you can see their online presence. You can go to instagram and see what somebody's been up to. What they want to show the world that they've been up to. But so I've been actively trying to reach out to the people when they come to mind, send him a text and say I'm thinking about you. How are you doing the other day? Actually this is not what I was planning on talking about but the other day I saw. Casey Nice that tweeted this thing where a friend of his asked him how he was doing. And I guess they're really good friends. I don't know who the other guy was, but they were really good friends and so. There's no small talk. There's no like, oh, we're doing fine. Hope you're doing well, none of that. It was like he texted and said, what's good. WHAT'S BAD The thing I thought it was really cool about that was it wasn't like hey, how's it going? It was tell me specifically something that's good and something that's bad. And when you do that, you have to say why I mean, you can't just be like. Something's bad. Okay, why is it bad? What's wrong? How can I help that kind of thing and it was like? The most distilled way to get to the heart of what somebody is dealing with in a good way in a bad way and I love that. and. So I decided couple of weeks ago like to start reaching out to these people as soon as they come to mind just a quick text. What's good what's bad how you doing? So that, there's these connections that are not through the instagram camera. They're not through the twitter, and that comes with a conversation of million. You know random people that you don't know. Just. Going directly to these people because I think. Part of my thing with social media is that those? You assume that you're still friends with somebody. You assume that you're still connected to somebody because you see them. But. You see them the way that everybody else sees them. You know what I mean by when I get a text from the two of you, we have a little conversation and when I get something. Cool, that's a secret conversation nothing special but it's just like that's the three of us as dudes as friends as people having a conversation that's not on twitter. It's not comments is not re tweets. It's. Here right. And I mean, we're lucky enough to we get to do this every week. But at the same time this conversation. Always has an audience always has a another ear listening into. and. So those intentional little personal text conversations of phone conversations or whatever like those are you know peer to peer person to person things that have a lot harder time existing on social media because those conversations are open to the world and so? One of my reaction to all the stuff that I'm feeling is I'm going to try to make those little. Random conversations, happen actively Menelik, seek them out. On, a regular basis, as soon as somebody comes to mind cause for me if if somebody's coming to mind, there's a reason, the reason I'm thinking about somebody. And I WANNA make sure that they're doing. Okay and just touch base. You know I, think it's. A good thing to do so anyway, that's what I've been. Mulling lately but that's cool. Now it's funny. I have a lot of every now and again me Laura email back and forth and me Jaakko, always have like a little ongoing conversation talk with Habu Lot. So you know when you think about European friends, the ones we don't see as much. It's nice though we always have like a little ongoing Chitchat. It's it's it's really sweet and those are the benefits those like the. The benefits of social media is like we wouldn't have made these connections. You know friends all around the world. Yeah, absolutely. So you gotta remember like. It was much as this is becoming the human existence. The you know the human condition. I now is shared through social media you know. You Got I. Is Is it amplifies all the bad and you know hopefully it amplifies the good as well. You just got to know what to pay attention to. What made you smile Bob, you put a big smiling of frozen percent. Well, your your video is is freezing on occasion and David, and I both can see it like you said something and then you smiled any just paused. The one time he was talking and froze and the first word that you said after you came back from being unfrozen was glitch you're talking about it. And I was like as perfect. But that's only funny to me. I should share on social media. So the point the point I was saying that like. What you gotTa Really Ya gotTa. Really take it with a grain of salt. When somebody's you know somebody has a wet diaper they happen to have a position of power and they get to take with a grain of salt and just no, you know what the person's. You know using abusing this social media blue bullhorn. Guy Look at it go. That's that's that's not that's not really the way it all is that person is in that's like walking past a homeless person screaming on the corner, but instead he's screaming on twitter. You got like begin to know the difference. Yeah and A lot of times what you're seeing on online is not who that person is like. You're seeing a very filtered presentation of me through all of my channels I'm showing you the the the best of you're not seeing all the mistakes or what's going on behind the scenes you're seeing what I want you to see. Yeah I know I know that's. A persona like you know for better or for worse beach have our own television shows and you know every television show doesn't show everything you just try and show the uplifting. Good Fun stuff. And I think it's pretty well understood. It's a it's these social media like these young kids that a flash in the pans that have huge huge success rising star in those are the ones that. You find out that you know they're taking pictures on a fake airplane. Gives all of us a bed net anyway. Well, I don't want WanNa beat this horse too much. But I, just that's been on my mind since we didn't have anything to talk about thought, it would bring it up I do think. Social media obviously has many many benefits. I'm not a person that thinks it's all bad and world trying to be controlled by some. Alien race or robots or something like that. But I do think it can accidentally become a replacement for actual relationships. With with a certain like pick person in your life, you can accidentally not really interact with that person because you see them on social media and I think that's what I'm actively trying to combat. is bypassing those networks and just going to the people. That I that are really an I can't do that to everybody all the time that I know but I think it's just being conscious of it and constantly looking for. Those connections outside the networks I think is a good thing to do. That's that's where I'm headed with this guy's got got anything else on this. Well I think I mean if I had to put a moral to the story I think. What works for me is you just gotTa really decide you know what's inspiring business related and what's not and You don't have to show every single thing you doing. Right, you really don't you don't have to. Every conversation you have with with everybody about everything you know it's just it's not necessary. Just, bummed, we didn't get to complain about giveaways on social media. Hey, there's still time we're only fifty three minutes. Let's talk about tagging people in instagram posts for giveaways. Don't don't do it. Don't do it. Is another thing you shouldn't do since since we're. Doing, I guess we could say we're giving advice of course. It's what what bums me out and I get and I've done it. I feel guilty because I've done. It is when you have like a great meeting with somebody and then you go to social media meeting, you like greatest common you guys just wait and see it's GonNa be awesome. And then it never comes because it's just like everything else. It's like you know everything is you know maybe a maybe or strong maybe or definitely going to happen maybe. And then doesn't always happen so I see a lot of people. You guys just wait. It's gotta be awesome and then you're setting yourself up for like a burst bubble when it doesn't happen and then you've got to answer questions. that was this thing it's no longer thing so. It's exciting. You want to run in share. You know that's the kind of thing you run a show with your dad or your mom or your wife your husband, right? Yeah and then when it comes near like guys check this out and you're like pull the curtain off and it's a new car. As opposed to like seven graves coming this way. You're all upset when it doesn't happen. You know whether it's being cast on show or you're not getting any advertiser or something. I think just in general, just need to hold you cause a little bit closer t chest. and. Till you could say this is happening, check this out and it's like boom you've been working on behind the scenes all the time. Yeah I'm cool like that. So I'M GONNA. I'm GonNa do both of the things you just said the thing you said not to do in the thing you said to. real quick because I was thinking about this last night in a different context but we're working on something. That's all I'm GONNA say about it that I'm really excited about it but it's GonNa take a very, very long John. She was GonNa get it may never happen. Now, it may never happen but if it does happen, it will be multiple years from now. And it's weird to think about like we do hold everything close to the chest. We intentionally keep things quiet until they are done and ready to ship. You know the ready to go out. And So. It's weird to think about this thing that we're having lots of conversations about and were working on this and that and part of it. And just to think that we could be churning on this thing in making progress on this thing. In the shadows for like two or three years before anybody else outside of the office knows about it is one of those. CONACO was walking Zhang's Jimmy. No, don't say don't have one of those like getting things with the legs. What is it called? It's no, it's not a walkie thing. then. The Star Wars related anyway. I just think it's I. think it's cool to have a thing like that that. You're excited about it, but it's a secret it's like. Nobody. It's like when we had our first kid. For while you know you're going to have a kid before you tell anybody and you have this little secret awesome thing that nobody else knows and it's so cool and then you tell everybody you're excited that everybody knows but then you're like we have now it's not our little secret anymore it's like now everybody can be happy which is good but it's you know it's a little bit different and so I was thinking about that last night with this thing that we're working on that. By the time we get to if ever tell everybody about it, it will be multiple years into it, which is cool and weird but. Anyway. Do you WANNA complain about giveaways on instagram anymore David before we that's good. That's good. Just knowing just just knowing that I wanNA complain about giveaways is good enough. Okay I don't actually how do you play? Gotcha, I will big thanks to our supporters on Patriots on. we have a bunch of people over there say this every week, but we are literally sincerely totally grateful to every single person whether they support us at the top levels or at a dollar or any anything over there is really cool. Excuse me and we are grateful for you. We have a group atop supporters that I need to call out always because we're extra grateful for them that's corey ward hours would works works by Solo Chad for man crafting, you can make this to funchess artistic creations blondie hacks rich alone designs make shape create in Odin Leather Goods That group and everybody else at every level gets the after show which will happen in just a minute and that's US talking other stuff secret stuff extra stuff whatever it's usually another fifteen twenty minutes of podcast. that you can only get by being a member unpatriotic. So if you WANNA do that, go to patriotdepot dot com slash making it, help us out get the after show. joined that community. It's it's cool. Group people were thankful. Thank you. Do you guys have something to recommend spoiler alert. I. Don't. But I'm working on it. During I wish I wish I could remember everybody's name but of course. Everybody ever. Know Dustin from would what does this channel you just mentioned that makes stuff happen what does this tell? Smarter every day what. His channel and I should have done my research but I just the new channel who is like exploding. He did they did the baseball collaboration with the shoot the baseball? Did you guys see this? Oh. Yeah. I haven't watched it yet, but it's list yet. They both put out a video of the same day I. Guess It was maybe the Sunday. Or Monday where exploding baseball and let me find this gentleman's name. He deserves highly is blowing up everybody already knows him. But he saw what it does. Make make stuff mayor stuff made made here. Stuff made here Yep, baseball that's it Stuff made here and I don't know his personal personally his name, but the channel is incredible and he's a very relatable easy going very well. well-made videos and I love his video on the Second Baseball Bat thing you Dany He. He did like a flashback. He's like here we are. This is what I've done. He didn't start out like I would've showed every single aspect until the very end it was inspiring to me because he did a video where he did all these very complicated things and he just showed you the net result like, okay we know how to machine. Okay. We know how to do something sexy mazing machinist and he. He basic Monday morning quarterback. What he did that made a great video as opposed to showing like if he needed highlight what he was showing, he did voice over over the image and great. Great. Great well, produced video so good inspired me to. Take another look at some of the videos I have coming up and then just put out. Of. Dustin put his version of them collaborating together. It was amazing. Now. Now, there's this little race of who can hit a baseball the furthest and joking about who actually did it between him and you know his baseball swinging baseball machine that he did with Jeremy Fielding and anyway it was great craigslist the you know. So cool. It's so cool that people just share ideas and have the strengthening competition and it's all it's all. It's all there and those two videos. My pick is cameras garage. I think I picked him before in the past he does a lot of woodworking art projects and this his video he released yesterday he's making an earn for his dad who's still around but getting old and having health issues so is a Obviously, a very personal video for him and I think. His channel is worth checking out because he does some very fun creative stuff. Cool I have heard you mentioned that name before bills CECCHETTO. Cool, well, mine is. A little bit of shame list shameful self-promotion depending on how you want to look at it. I'll take the one I put out the first episode of brain pick. this week sometime I duNno. Tuesday and It was a conversation with. So allies awesome and I think we had a really good conversation. I tried to skip all of the you know the basic intro questions and go a little bit deeper with him about why he's in the states versus the UK in he you know has built this crazy business. Internet I was I was really wrong about. My expectation of how does things which which was fun as cool to to be wrong that way. but he's he's always awesome to talk to and hang out with. So we had a really good conversation that's out I. Don't know how often these will be coming out but brain picks should be back and You know be doing more of those. So go ahead and subscribe to that. If you're interested in hearing me talk to interesting people. That's on all your podcast players and all that stuff and it has an after show. I totally yanked the idea from this show which we yanked from somewhere else I don't know, but it's got an after show with extra. Actually he told me some secret stuff that's coming up for him. That's pretty cool and that's over on I like to make stuff maker Alliance they get the after show over there. So there's that and also Alec did a video series with Tyler Bill you guys know Tyler Bill Tyler is also awesome and So. They've been working together for a week or so billing this year. Making this forged chair frame. It's crazy. It's really cool. It's fun to watch and So that's that's been called and fallen along on that project as well. So. Those two things What have you got anything else? At the new music. Go. Well, thank you for listening to everybody and. You see the sun the sun on my face. is coming out of the day. Here in Ohio it's dark and. Re.
Why "Zucked" author Roger McNamee turned against Facebook
"Take today's show is brought to you thought works, presenting go CD, a modern CI CD tool that provides control of and visibility into complex software. Deployments. Support for cloud. Environments like coober, Netease, Docker AWS, Azure, and more. Learn more at go CD dot ORG. Today's episode is brought to you by prudential accompany. That knows that being tech savvy doesn't necessarily make you financially savvy. Whether you're running a business or your family's finances prudential can help you achieve financial wellness. Learn how at prudential dot com slash take it on. Hi, I'm Carey Swisher editor at large of Recode. You may know me as the basis in the bay on moon Alice. But in my spare time, I talk tech, and you're listening to Rico decode from the vox media podcast network today in the red chair someone I know very very well known for a very long time Roger McNamee, the founding partner of the venture capital firm elevations partners. He was an early investor in Facebook for the company went public is. Now, speaking out against the company in a new book called zonked, waking up to the Facebook catastrophe. Roger why is this surprise that you out there? I've known Rogers, and he's always been the most enthusiastic Detrick capitalist. I know he's character. Roger welcome to Rico deco so cool to be here. Carol, I'm so. Excited in this book. It's getting a lot of attention. Will you know? It's a funny thing when you spend thirty four years being a tech optimist. Right. And all of a sudden you wake up one morning. You realize everything you hate time. His basically gone off the rails off the cliff. So we can blame you. Right. Well, you know, I certainly blamed myself, and so I had this moment of epiphany where I realized I had to stop doing what I was doing and commit myself to seeing I couldn't help repair some of the damn right? So we're going to talk about the epiphany. We're going to talk about what you like. And we talked a little bit of your history. Let's get your history because you and I go way back, but you go back way back for the net. I got to come out in the ninety in the mid nineties early mid nineties talk a little bit about your background. So you will understand who you are. And what? Yeah. So I I came to the tech industry in nineteen eighty two I grew up in Albany, New York, I had to drop out of college for while. My father died earn some money coming back when I came back. So I finished two years. My brother gave me a speak and spell Christmas. One thousand nine hundred seventy eight because. Texas, Texas Instruments. They will really matters. Basically. Yeah. Teaches kids how to spell and he said because you can do this thing today. Very soon you're gonna be able to make a handheld device it holds all your personal information. This is nineteen brother. This is my brother nineteen years before the palm pilot is one year after the apple two is still three years from the IBM PC. Right. I mean, it is Shing insight. So I literally spend the next whatever number of years trying to figure out how to be part of this thing. I come to Silicon Valley in nineteen eighty two and they're not doing anything like that. They're still working on the space shuttle that was a brand new program. I mean, we weren't even making PC's yet. We were totally focused on the government. Then the PC industry comes takes off. I wind up spending, you know, entire life, just living and breathing. Totally believing in the Steve Jobs notion of bicycles for the mind technology, a better place. Been in Silicon Valley by this time, you had gone to college. I when I dropped out. I moved to San Francisco right now. So I dropped out after my sophomore here and move San Francisco spent two and a half years. Well, I had a girlfriend at Chester to California, and then my father died, and so I was stuck right. And I had to earn enough money to go back to school. And so it took me a while. And the key thing was in the mid seventies. You know, that's the air of palm. Right. I mean, we're talking I was apple got incorporated while I was in California. But I wasn't aware of it until the last year on the apple two shipped is all of a sudden, I'm looking at this thing going. Wow. What are you gonna use? That for wasn't like obvious to me at all. I'm not a natural engineer. But the speaking spell changed everything that same year and all of a sudden go okay now again. All right. So you live to California. And what did you do it? Where did you work? I lived in San Francisco, and I I thought it was going to be a journalist. I've been this hot shot on the school newspaper. I come out. I call the San Francisco Chronicle, I say and here, I'm here. I wanted to be a reporter in the guy. Literally bursts out laughing says look kid, your college dropout with no degree. We do have jobs selling classified ads south of market, which in those days was a free again. Let me just say but move. Okay. So then I make a call to the community newspaper. That's sort of the mid sized thing. The bay guardian the guy laughs at me and says we have jobs selling display ad south of market. I'm starting to connect the dots. Finally, I realized the only jobs in newspapers are going to be selling. I did not have a selling personnel. I had no I was very introverted them. And I finally went to work for a French-Language newspaper because I'd lived in France. And so I was fluent I went to work for them. And I was the entire Ed department. And I it was my first entrepreneurial experience that staff of three, and I had to learn not only had a cell as a head to learn how to trust people because I think ads place. South of market and get those because I was too introverted to work in a large organization and notion of being a salesperson and awry, I mean, you know, me well enough to know that if arabica in no I'm writing up, but I'm not guy. Right. Yeah. You're right. I mean, one time, I'm not sure your favorite meal, lesbian, Mark Benny all showed up. Yes. He is. It's so so I I just I couldn't do that. I worked in this firm where I was the only guy everybody else was swimming. And it worked perfectly and I earned enough money to go back to college. But the key thing is when I tried to call these engineering courses, but I just couldn't figure out how to make even a really large thing to collect all your. So I decided I need to find a job where I can be around it. And when I went to grad school, I figured out. Oh my God. They'll pay me to be a research analyst. I gotta go to that. And in those days that was like an academic job. It didn't pay. Well, you know, there was no chance of of becoming wealthy. But I go to tear oh price. Get there. The first day the boat market in nineteen eighty two and they assigned me to tech, and you sit there realize how for the next thirty four years. I had this gale-force tail. You can explain every good thing that ever happened to be based on that thirty condition that day in that cover with the company were coming at the beginning of the very first ones because it was eighty two I covered defense electron IX and software, right? And software in those days was Computer Associates in MSA, and I don't think there was anything else. And you know, PC's were still in the future. And it just not apple. No apple apple was, you know, there was somebody who covered hardware hardware was its own Caddick T. Rowe price at a big tick group. And so I had software the defense electronics and and and space program, and it was I mean, it just it was I was so badly prepared for that job. So you went in you did research reports on the did research reports in a bull market, which meant everything recommend went up. So if you ever were cautious that was mistake, and the keep inflection point occurred in I believe, it was eighty seven I went to a conference in you know, I was trying to figure out how to do this PC thing, and these guys unloading amplifiers and guitars from the back of a car, and it turned out there. Having a jam session. The invited me to go along and I'd been playing it. Happy hours forever. I knew hundreds of songs and everybody else knew one verse or one chorus, but nobody knew a whole saw. So I was. Welcomed in. And that meant that. I suddenly was playing music with Paul Allen from Microsoft and Philippe Kahn from Borland the chief technology officer at apple and all these other big money monks in the industry and flippantly. I'm part of the social structure completely by it will. Yeah. Because these guys didn't go to bars, they didn't go and do weird stuff. They had jam sessions. And that was something I knew how to do, and, you know, one thing led to another, and I evolved this notion where I just followed the industry around which in those days endless sat in an office with a computer in a spreadsheet and read faxes, and it's like I'm going. I'm not gonna do that. My wife was a professor in Philadelphia. My job was in. Baltimore forget, I'm not going to be home at night and might be traveling. And my boss bless his heart said you go for it. And so I did and created this model that worked for me really were analyst at Chiro price. How did you move to mess? So what happened is the natural? Progression is your Nanu. A-list? And then if they think you've got potentially let your own some money and Indy five they let me be in charge of the technology portion of the biggest emerging growth fund that they had which the new horizons fund. And the key thing was there were no tech funds until I wanna say eighty six or eighty seven. So it was the biggest pool of tech money out there and I had one insight. I decided I wasn't going to own anything that had been founded after apple or before apple excuse me, nothing before I was only going to own the microprocessor generation company. So don't the fresh wind fresh. So it meant I basically sold all the old guard guys. Well, if you pick only one decision in the eighties being negative on mainframes and mini computers, basically gave a huge relative invention and industry where role of advantage was the only saying cared about. And so, you know, I got really really lucky. I mean, I probably made three great decisions at T. Rowe price and the net result was I finished the eighties. They create a science and technology fund in eighty seven. It starts the first of October of nineteen eighty-seven. The crash happens. Nineteen days later, I'm not managing the fund, but it's down thirty one percent after one month, and is like affirms going. Oh my God. We just put our two best guys in this thing. We've doomed him six months later, they moved them out. And they said Roger you're going to run it. And I said only if I get to run it my way, and they said, what's your way? And I said, I don't know. But it won't be your way. Right. Right. And so the fund was this tiny little thing, they figured it was doing I think it would ten million bucks mean. Asset. Well, not really. They went ten was not it wasn't ever going to break even at that level. And so I took over the fund, and I basically decided to concentrate I would have fifty sixty percent of the fun in ten holdings. And you know, there were some really scary moments like nineteen ninety when the Kuwait invasion happened simultaneously with oracle missing oracle have been growing a hundred percent year over year forever in the summer of ninety that finally failed. I had twelve percent of the fund in oracle. The stock was down thirty percent on one day. Chips and technologies got blown up with the I had three positions that were each ten percent. Well, I mean the fund was down. I want to say thirty five or forty percent in a month. And it was like I had my own personal crash. And what was amazing though was that? I realized that the Kuwait thing didn't matter because windows, come out in may. And that windows was going to be the first time tech. A bull market. You know, went through the eighties care lagging terribly because the because Rogin killed, but I said, Microsoft is changing everything I'm going to load up. I'm gonna just get rid of the things that killed me and pile into Microsoft and things like that. Long story short between September of nineteen ninety and the end of March of ninety one over six months the fund was up over one hundred percent, right. And all of a sudden having had great years before that I suddenly had the top fund of any kind. And which plan I'm going. Well, actually, it wasn't Microsoft's bidding on everybody. But Microsoft for a weird reason. But anyway, lost her short in parallel. I'd been doing venture vessels T. Rowe started a late stage fund. So I put money into electron- ick arts and Sybase and radius and a few other things, but they were all kind of Perkins companies, and I got to know John Doran the full of one thousand nine right at the bottom of that that the funding of ticket come from venture capital. Most of the most of it. And there weren't that many companies as you remember maybe ten showed up. It'd be like ten IPO so year one of which would become a monster. And John was the hot John was the hot young guy. He'd done Compaq he'd done Lotus he'd done a SUN Microsystems, and we hit it off and any long story short and fall nineteen ninety one of their partners, one of their investors said you guys oughta start a crossover fund you ought to get that guy McNamee to run it. So he comes up to me at Comdex, which is the big trade show. Sheldon Adelson now the casino magnate. How he made his first money and John come such me says one of our investors wants us to do this. What do you think? And I said when do we start I actually was working in a business plan to do exactly that with him when I didn't realize this. He had never given one second thought except for this one conversation. So he leaves the thing it doesn't think about it. Again. Meanwhile that night I stay up all night long finishing plant which I send him in the neck like the next day. Nothing happens. But anyway, long story short a series of miracles occurs. And I want up persuading Kleiner Perkins. That I have this idea, and they run it through a ringer because we're going to create a fund in the Clinton of first time they've ever had a subsidiary, and we called the integral capital partners. And I brought a guy from who was my partner at T road. John John Powell, and we decided to raise the money from the only people in America who thought tech was a good place to invest, which are basically the CEO's of the tech industry. And so we had this little vertically integrated thing, but it creates this real weirdness because you basically couldn't own any of the portfolio stocks of those people right now so a ton of money from Microsoft and Intel with trying to vet the tech fund without owning those stocks, and but it worked out incredibly well the timing at night, but magin getting to Kleiner in nineteen ninety there for the entire nineties, which is Amazon. I was there when Mark came in. Actually got to be in the meeting when when injuries and brought in Netscape, and I was there when Jeff Bezos brought in and got to sit in on the first Amazon meeting. So with Netscape Bill joy had been talking up that whole thing. And so that we all were true believers, nobody knew what that men, right? But we Bill convinced us this was the next big thing. And so that part we were onto base os. Was he himself was the story. Yeah. I mean, you look at books and people have been trying similar things. Yes. Anything Ingram as a as a buffer. And and it hasn't really worked. Jeff basis was arguably the most compelling entrepreneur I have ever seen Amin. And he's really unlike I mean, you know, there are a lot of great entrepreneurs in her a lot of brilliant people and even exhausting. I don't know how to put it. I mean exhausts me when I visit. But he was also funny. Okay. And and. Yeah. In a way that the other guys just pulling warrant, okay? He was he was very different a lot of enthusiasm. He was he was just one of a kind, right? And so, you know, going through all that period being inside Kleiner. We get to ninety seven Martha Stewart brings Martha Stewart Living into. Yeah. Well, it wasn't yet. I'm new media that they stuck on the end. It was, you know, basically, a home decorating company and Martha comes in. And she's a total tour to force John says, we're gonna slap the Kleiner name. I we're going to call it. I'm gonna media, and we're going to take it public in a couple of months, and they got a multibillion dollar valuation for a home decorating company. I'm going oh my God Omnimedia. Well, we yes. But it's it's the end of ninety seven and I'm going oh my God. We're in a bubble. When this ends integral is toast. So I I go to Kleiner and go. We miss ends genitals toast, and look at me and go what do you mean? And this is an arrogant. This is the beginning of everything. So I go to our other partner, which was Morgan Stanley which owned a small piece of integral and. Guys. This is the end, and they looked at me went really, I go. Yeah. And they said, okay, here's some money. Go figure out what the next big thing is. So I went out, and we spent two years in came up with this thing called Silverlake, and the idea was to go into older tech companies and give them all the benefits of a startup the problem with the old guys is they stopped growing stock stops going up and all the people leave. And then you go into this progressive cycle of decline, and I want to do it with Seagate because the disc drive industry been going through this hot and cold cycle up and down as we wanted to Seagate and we wanted to do the motherboard business Intel, and those were the two examples we gave and save invest cut called. No, no, forget does the opposite of cutting costs. We were we were the opposite of a traditional phone. We were actually going to increase our indeed dramatically in try to change the slope of the long-term cycle. Well, Steve, oh, who at that time was the president of Seagate was completely into this idea and he'd worked investment banking. He had I had known each other before he went into disk drive. And so I go to the integral investors in the fall of nineteen ninety eight and I go we think the cycles come into an end, we think you ought to do this. And they sign up for a billion dollars of this new fund sight unseen. And I gotta go out and find other people to work with F one guy, and we go and get two more and wind up raising two and a half billion dollars. Which at the time was. It was ludicrous. I mean, it was so far the biggest fire nation was. The nation was this was called Silverlake. And and so so we basically take in the money, and I cash out the rest of the integral fund in March of two thousand which turned out coincidentally to be perfect time the end of the cycle. Again. Just dumb luck. And we put the money into Seagate in this company will Datek which was an online trading business now known as Ameritrade or TD Ameritrade, and and Gartner Group, and we do them all in two thousand right is the market is in freefall. And of course, all three of them were magnificent successful Seagate, totally changed the district business and our investors as a consequence wind up going up while the market was collapsing, and that made people very popular, but then I had a health crisis. And I missed I had the same health crisis. Well, I mine was actually a little bit more severe than you. I had to scarring strokes and TIAA in my brain stem, and then I had to have open heart surgery in order to keep from having more strokes. And so the prob. With all of that was that I missed more than six months, and while I was gone my partners realized, hey, wait a minute. We've got these three amazing investments. We've already got all the money. We don't need this guy anymore. And you know, and I was really different. And I gotta be honest. I don't play office politics. Well, I wasn't. And I wasn't well sue I mean, let's face. I'm not ideal guy. I'm really idealistic. I'm not motivated by money. Anyway, I come back, and I talked to Steve Jobs, and Steve you've just introduced the screen new thing called the ipod. And he goes, yeah. I go with your stock is at twelve bucks. You get twelve bucks in cash in your options are at forty. That's not gonna work. Steve goes. Yeah. But I don't want to do an peo-. Plus, I don't like your partners echo. Steve come on. We gotta find a way to do this. Anyway, he thinks bad comes back and says why don't you buy eighteen percent of the company in the public market? And we'll do this thing you go on the board. We'll do it. So I come into silver leg, we work for two months. Come up with a plan that says that Apple's going? Focus on consumers. It's going to do I PAZ, and it's gonna do I max, and then we'll do other things for the digital life. But it's going to create a new world for PC's one that's away from the office in towards consumers. And you know, it Papa grow twelve fourteen percent. And you know, it'll gain some market share and everybody would be happy to make a ton of money. And the apple guys will do great things. My partner said, no. They said you can't make any assumption of growth for any period greater than seven percent. And I'm looking at him going hang on the company has as much cash on the balance sheet as stock price, you're taking no risk and seven percents still works. The math at seven percent says this agree investment why they good. We're not gonna do it. I mean, it costs are investors and opportunities over one hundred billion dollars in profit. That was a little frustrating. Then bottled calls up. I literally get a fun shows up. Wait a second. Okay. So I knew Bano because you get go. So so anyway, I bought Okosa point days as Roger gotta deal for you. And we take it to to Silverlake, and they got we'll do the deal, but we're going to go. But now with you, and I go what do you mean? We said we want you out of here. Oh, that's cool due to them for otter. Let's get to your ears. I think I'm just annoying, right? Obviously, I was annoying. But anyway, long story short I call. Wow. I'm out of the firm. He said, screw them. We'll start your own firm. So that day L vision started. And then that is what leads to call writing about this. Now, it's now remembering when I had to write about this fight. It was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, we've been through a little bit. But I mean, all the way back to you at the Washington Post, and so anyway, that leaves us journal by this time. Yeah. Yup. By then it was but but when I first met her anyway, so the long story short is that's two thousand and three and that's elevating and the following year. Mark Zuckerberg starts Facebook. Tell me how you met him. And you were doing palm to you were doing not quite yet. Tom come slightly. So imagine. That it's the spring of two thousand six I get an Email maybe early many, I get an Email from Chris Kelly who was the chief privacy officer at Facebook. And I knew Chris just a little bit. He goes, my boss has got a really serious problem. He needs to talk to somebody who's been around a long time whose objective, basically a dinosaur, and I go well that sounds like me, and he goes that's why I'm calling. So what do you think it next week after he says, no how about one o'clock this afternoon? So Mark comes to my office. He's twenty two companies two years old. They have nine million in sales. No real business model. They're only still high school students and college students, they don't even have news feed. But it's already obvious that he has the answer for social and to me, there are two elements one was authenticated identity who had to have an Email address from a real thing. The second thing was he actually gave you privacy control because they're all there was in those days was what you put into and. You could control who saw it. And I thought that my space and France and all these had failed because of a combination of anonymity, which both allows trolls to come in. And also make sure network complexity a lot harder, and frankly, just a lack of focus Mark comes into my office. And I go dude you, and I don't know each other. If I if you go first, you'll never trust anything, I say, so lemme tell you the context from me coming to this meeting. He goes far away. I go look if it hasn't already happened, either Microsoft or Yahoo is going to offer a billion dollars for Facebook and everybody, you know, he's going to tell you to take it. They're going to tell you though, back next company. It'd be just a successful. You'll have six hundred fifty million bucks. You can change the world. And I just want you to know, Mark. I think what you have here is the most important company since Google and you'll eventually be bigger than Google is today in my mind that would be hundred million users, and I'm thinking that's outrageously. And I said, here's one thing. I know I've been doing this at that point twenty four years there is. Ever been an entrepreneur. Who's had Lee perfect idea at the perfect time twice. Lots of people have had the perfect idea twice, Steve Jobs, being example. But getting the timing. Exactly. Right. That takes unbelievable. Good luck. And it's never happened twice. I said it won't happen to you. I think Facebook is the single best idea of this decade. If you believe in you, gotta do it. All right. We're gonna take a break for an outbreak. And we get back when we're talking about what happened then we're here with Roger McNamee. His new book is called sucked. Wait, he just opened a soda waking up face catastrophe. We're gonna take the breakdown. We'll be back after this. Today's show is brought to you by Microsoft's, Azure, startups governments and ninety percent of fortune. Five hundred companies are built on the Microsoft cloud with Microsoft, Azure. Teams can stay productive with tools. They already know how to use and they can develop and deploy anywhere in the world with a consistent hybrid environment. What will you achieve when you come to the cloud? Get started with a free account and twelve months of popular services at Azure dot com slash trial. That's as E U R, E dot com slash trial. We're here with Roger McNamee, his new book is called Zucker, which is very funny. Roger how could you not resist that? Anyway, waking up after the Facebook catastrophe. So here you are many young, Mark Zuckerberg. You're totally inches company. You're telling him just what he wants to hear which is don't sell the Terry Semel don't sell to Larry in Sergei keep at it. Which is precisely with someone like Mark wants to hear what you said to me at the time was I I asked him. I said do you want to sell the company, and he said, I don't want to disappoint everybody. Right. And I said, dude wrong. That's that's the wrong frame. Well, I think his parents and all were involved so and really a billion dollars on a nine million revenue thing was right? Those days subsequent that became small change. And had a lot of troubles. He had a lot of CEO COO's in and out. And he had a lot of CFO's every every week there was some catastrophe catastrophe. And so I didn't. No, no, no, no this. This is the first one. But within six months, I think he has at least two more offers one a including a second one from you. So the key thing was I helped him understand how to communicate why he wasn't going to do it because he had a gold votes. It was eating the entire meeting was only half an hour. But he invited me come back to his office like a couple of days later, and that begins a three year period of what I would characterize as mentoring. What others have characterizes mentoring where I was part of this ecosystem of people he would refer that. You would tell you Graham. Well, the top people I was in the second tier the top people would been Peter Thiel would have been Mark injuries, and Don Graham, and Marc Andreessen was the founder of Netscape became a venture capitalist, and Peter Thiel was Peter Thiel who was the first money into Facebook. And those people I mean, those people had social relationships with as well as business for me. It was just a business thing. And he consulted me on a very specific set of things. But what was weird was at that time? Those things were coming up. Not every day. But certainly every week. So we were talking a lot. I was you know, at Facebook almost every week for a few years, and you had been an investor at this point. No, no, no, no at the beginning. I did it just because I wanted to meet the kid who was starting the thing. I thought was the coolest ideas. Elbow your way in like, no, no. I don't know if I had it still be at Silverlake. Right. So what happens is that I helped him deal with replacing bunch of people. I help them deal with the with the winkle vi-. Right. He has the crisis of that that story breaking and what happens is in the summer of two thousand and seven one of their employees has a life changing experience in needs to get liquidity needs to get rid of his options. And you know, it's not even they aren't even real options. This is totally synthetic thing. And he needs to do a chance action. He needs to do it quickly. And he comes to me and says, we do it. And my partners looked at it. And said, look, we can't put a thing. That's that touchy feely into the fun. But why don't you guys? Go ahead. Do it. So Bano Mark by Nick Knight. But this guy's options and my neck is brother-in-law Mark Baden because the brother-in-law of Sheryl Sandberg. And was the way that I got to know shamburg back in two thousand which is how Cheryl was. Introduced Bano to me. And I mean, all of these things are always in her basement. No, hangup Bono was working on the millennium debt forgiveness program was real the US counterpart. And he wanted to find out who this guy was who's helping the Grateful Dead with their digital strategy after geography a died in that person happened to be me. Sure. A last because it goes my brother-in-law works for him. And so I mean this whole thing it's such a tight. I wanted you to say that is because it's such a ridiculously tight, social and weird. And in this book is written from the perspective of Jimmy Stewart in your window. Right. It's one series of improbable coincidences after another go you start working with them. And then you buy this stock out we buy this little bit of stock. Right. And then almost immediately after shirl calls me up and says, I'm thinking of leaving Google. I've got an opportunity to get a senior position at the Washington Post. And I go shirl that is insane. Okay. I mean, Google is killing these guys me. Meanwhile, Marcus come to me and saying I've got to get a different COO and light bulb goes off. And I say to Cheryl, I think you should look at Facebook. And sure goes oh, come on. Now, he's twenty two this will never work Google it become a juggernaut at this point in critical part of its advertising. She was she was part of a three woman team that had created the monetization in Google and Edwards. I think is arguably the greatest advertising product ever created in China Shona, and no, no, no it was Marissa. And and Susan's isn't okay. Marissa's was involved too. But go ahead. But what my point it was it was the all women's team. Okay. And they created what was I mean? Every the great thing about Edwards was worked for everyone. There was nothing to see full about this. She wasn't a big place. So you off. Thought about this was well, her Nishel thought was he's so much younger and his reputation was you know, the WinCo five right? And so we're you going to do that. And I said to her show humor me his mother is a doctor. He has nothing but sisters, I think he is the rare person Silicon Valley who can work with a woman just take the meeting. I go to Marcus. I think you should get Cheryl is your CO. Mark says well, but she's a Google. It's a totally different problem. I'm going Mark. Gimme a thing. That's closer to what Facebook's going to be in Google. And I said, and they went from zero to look where they are. This is got to be relevant. So anyway, it takes like two months, but they finally get together. And once they do there is a chemistry and it really together. And so they team up at which point then you have you know, later that year in two thousand eight got beacon thinking was this product that Facebook created that basically followed you when you purchase at retail, and then they would post on your Facebook account. And there was this famous story of a poor man who buys an enraged raining. I wrote about on overstock at a really deep discount and Facebook publish on his news feed. That is how his fiancee finds out. He's going to propose find Saudi gets this ring for twenty seven cents all of his friends. Find out he's humiliated, and anyway, Facebook withdrew effort matter months and sherline I had a showy say a disagreement philosophically about that. And I realized it was time for me to, you know, back off a little bit in the you can be irritating. Like, you know, what I mean to people you for? You think? No. And they don't like that. And so once they get to a certain period, you have you have an opinion. The same probably had its at silver. Like, I mean, I'm basically there's a certain amount of time. He like me. And then after that, you know, I've wear them. I still like you. I. But you very you. Do you what carefully written me emails? I'm like that has whole like kind of thing. And so, but you had been there for that time. And what was your conception of Facebook at the time? This was the greatest thing in the world. This was going to be great any of the seeds. You were made wealthy by beacon beacon was for me. A beacon changed my whole attitude, and I don't describe it this way in the book because it just it's a level of detail too far. But for this audience is just beacon affected my relationship with show. And I you know, I do describe what she says about it. She talks about being a team succeeding in failing as a team, which is a philosophy. She holds very deeply and it worked incredibly well in the way up a Facebook. And my point to her was that I feared that whenever something went wrong. If you didn't have any accountability at all, then when things seriously wrong, there would be no way to hold people accountable. No way to stop a problem. Nobody would speak of incentive. Anyway, I realized it was time for me to step back. I did. And I go into the stands, and I'm a cheerleader. I love everywhere. The next signal was ally. Pariser who was at that time the president who've on does Ted talk about filter bubbles, and he talks about the fact that is Facebook and Google fees are no longer neutral. And that these algorithms are Taylor into what they perceive he likes in. They're trying to steer them in a direction when he warned all of us. And I was gobsmacked. I literally ran up to meet him after the thing. And the problem with this whole thing was I just assumed that once he called attention to it. Mark would look at it and go I don't wanna do it what year laughing. But here's the thing. Myrlie? My relationship with Mark. He was so high integrity and so high quality. Okay. I mean, I really I don't know that anybody's ever had a better relationship with him than than me because I didn't go watch the social network in part because the Mark I knew is different from that. And I just sit to myself, you know, it wasn't like him at all. First of all I talked too much in the guy in the movie talked a lot. But but all I meant was he'd grown up in my mind, they were worrisome signals throughout the founding of the company, they're always sneak know, your data sucking. You're completely right. I'm just saying I had a lot of personal interaction with my dozens and dozens of meetings, and he was fantastic love me. And he only asked me about things where he was paired to take my advice. And so it was from a mentoring point of view it literally couldn't advice. I. Mike experience was Cheryl other than the beacon thing was also flows. I loved them both. They were really I was I really liked him. So I was a cheerleader and so in two thousand sixteen when I start to see things aren't right. What caused you? What was the piffle? So so the key thing is was a series of of things that happened. It started with the New Hampshire primary where there were these Facebook groups extensively associated with the campaign. Bernie Sanders, it'd be like bay area for Bernie burners for Bernie and things like that. That would have these deeply misogynistic, basically counterfactual memes and about Hillary Clinton. And what's the thing that caught my eye was that went from like one Meam shared by one person one day, then the next day a different name shared by four people. The next day a different share by sixteen people which toll because I'd done Facebook groups from who else my band that somebody was paying money to get people into these groups I'm going. I went look the groups the only thing they were doing with these memes. What's happening? What's going on here? Then a month later. Facebook expelled, a company that was scraping data basically using the API scraped data about people are interested in black lives matter and they were selling it to police departments. I'm calling now they expelled right? But the is the damage was completely done these people civil rights had been trampled upon. Ooh. That is evil, and they're using the Ed tools, and then Brexit happens, and you know, England or the United Cam folks to leave the European Union. There was an eight point swing between the final day polling and the outcome in favor of leave and leave had been all over Facebook remain had not and leave had this incredibly incendiary ad campaign. I'm thinking to myself what if there's something about the algorithms? It's giving an advantage here and keep him. I I left it. Today. Don't really do the the, you know, the beginning of all of the stuff that's kind of creepy, and and and psychological really begins in two thousand eleven so I'd missed all that. So I'm not attention when they did all the partnerships member that two thousand eight or nine where he had that one f eight I was creeped out. Right. And I was like what I so. I went there, and I missed the signal. Okay. I was there with you. And I looked at it. And I'm going I wasn't sure what they meant. Okay. And what should throw me off was that the scale of the people he was doing them with was too big unless he was giving something really mad. It's right, right. I mean, how in God's name would you get Microsoft and all these other people into partnerships, unless you are giving the magic beans, and I wanted to believe right? I liked him. Right. And so anyway, it's it is what it was. And so he was on for the ride. You had your milliner coming in with the money. You had the public offering Yuri. Milner scared the hell out of me. Okay, from so, that's that's. Another signal that I that I noted, but didn't know how to factory and by the way. I I'm just saying this is weird. It was just this is weird as opposed to anything else. Anyway, the fourth and final point was that the housing and urban development cited Facebook for advertising tools that allowed discrimination real estate in violation of the fair housing act. So now, I've got four data points, and I had a bunch of other slightly lesser ones. And I come to you guys in Walton vice me to write a Recode blog or a up it about my concerns, and I start writing it up, and unfortunately, really passionate because two of the three things are civil rights violation or two four were civilized values. And I grew up in a family when my parents were really involved in that stuff. And so I take it that that the thing I'm involved in his violating people's civil rights. That was like that was bad miratory. So this was an op-ed it was kind of emotional, and my wife and says you really got to send it to market show. I because that's got to be a first loyalty, and I didn't wanna make trouble. What I want to solve the problem. Right. So I never published. I never give you guys the op-ed. I just give it to them. And they got right back to me. In fact. They were incredibly polite, but also a little bit dismissive saying we just don't agree that it's systemic. But here's Dan rose. You talked to Dan, he's your friend the partnership guy. He was the partnership guy. And I was close to my I knew well, and that was a good solution. Just said, look, I'll talk to Dan, we talk a couple of times the phone in the election happens, and I'm like at that point at that point. Why did you get a Sweijd by it? Why did you buy them? Why did you get because twice sixteen? Yes. And twenty six no, I wasn't hanging. I go completely non linear. So there's only nine days pass between right memo on the election. And which point I'm seeing Dan, you don't get your telling me that the law provides you with a safe harbor for the actions of third parties. And I'm telling you in a trust business. You have got to throw yourself on the mercy of the court and have to do a Johnson and Johnson did after Tylenol you have got to protect the people. I wrote lots of texts all of them. Okay. So so he dismissed absolutely going, particularly I go on fourth. Well, but I also think that was his job. Okay. I believe he was given marching orders with me and presumably with you. And he got in a big fight. Okay. So we spent three months in this back and forth. I finally give up and I started looking for allies and then a miracle occurs in April, and I meet Tristan. In Harris, right after he does the sixty minutes piece. He he had been designed ethicist Google, and he was on sixty minutes talking about what he called brain hacking, and here he was an expert in persuasive technology, and he talked about how platforms because of the instantan- was the second car. The addiction part. I had done a podcast. It's a year before because it was so fascinating. Okay. But I missed you. It was an idea that these things are not good for you is the first rumblings of that the point was he came at a moment in time when I was looking for an ally. I learned that. Okay. These people can use the tricks from magic from slot machines, you know, the sort of rewards thing. But also appeals to fill your fear and outrage move your buttons, and therefore manipulate your attention and in manipulating their attention. They can create first habits, you know, with like buttons and notifications, and then they can create addiction in some subset of the population. And I call them up and a go. Dude. Have you thought about this in the context of the election? And he goes say more, we talk about it, and we go oh my God. He has one part of the problem. I have another part of the problem we decided to join forces. And after that, you know, we go to the Ted conference where he gets the ally Pariser gets them on the agenda on two weeks notice. He gives us impassioned tedtalk in which everybody gives them. Nice applause afterwards. We go round to collect cards of people want to help us out. We get two cards. Neither one returns phone. Call is a complete wipeout. And we don't know anybody else in that after that is when miracles occur. And we finally, you know, get to congress get to Senator Mark I want to get to a couple of things one. You had made we you'd say how much money he made from Facebook. Did you want to give it back? A lot of people wonder like I pace with people definitely call it. Like, he took all the money. And he's he's being a critic well to be clear I've given away most of the money that I've made for Facebook and head well before understood this problem. Give it back to whom they were like he made money from us like a cigarette. No sorry. He here. I think the reality is that's an interesting question. But I don't know how that would work operationally. I think I had two choices. I could sit back like everybody else. Do nothing right which most people did or I could I could become an activist and take money. I'd made from Facebook fighting them, right? I'm completely self cigarette. Manufacturers families were the ones fighting RJ Reynolds. There's all kinds of examples. But my point is I those were the two basic choices. I was offered and people say, well, why do you still own the stock? I still on the stocks. I don't want. Anybody would be confused. I don't want them thinking that. I am an activist because I'm trying to knock the stock down. Right. Look, I was obviously the wrong messenger for market, Cheryl. And I may be the wrong messenger for the people listening on this. But everybody needs to address the message, we need to talk about it now because with the internet of things and with artificial intelligence, the prob. We're talking about our about to get so much. I want to talk about that in the next. But that's that's why I became an actor is what prompted because let me let me be clear to listeners who don't understand something about it is a tight club, and you put a stink bomb right in the middle of it back. You personally Rogers crazy Rogers nuts. Rogers. Yeah. Stroke with someone said that to me, and I was like, hey, I had a stroke. So really, not stroke is not the way I want to hear that kind of thing. But it was an astonishing very few people breakaway of prominence, and you were you had long been a person prominence and they were trying to sideline for sure. Sideline you? But not in the typical way that you would think whistle blowers are but more in the he's crazy thing. But the obviously you talked about before I mean, everybody chill, but I had an unusual personally for what I do all the way through right? And that's been both the secret of my success. And always the source of the setbacks, and you know, the point is I can't worry about the issues. You're describing there I believe it's really important that we talk about these issues. I have a biography that makes me credible in some of the most important circles for doing it, and the cost is very high. I've lost a huge number of relationships that really valley matter in Silicon Valley, but I also. I realized that I was at a point in my life where I needed to stop letting technology intermediate everything, but why did you do it? What was it? Like, you're a political person neighbor in the electrify. I was it. No, no, no. What I'm saying? Is that it actually didn't happen all at once? I mean, reaching out to market sure was me reaching out to my friends thinking that they were the victim. And my basic belief is that I understand how twenty sixteen happened. I mean were there signals. Yeah. Do they miss them? Yeah. But in fairness, I missed a ton of signals too. So I think we're all foul we're all entitled to make mistakes. My real problem here in the thing that really energized. My activism was initially. I go to congress. We help them get ready for the hearings. We think our job is done because our jumping our goal for Tristan me is just to get a conversation. Started the people in Washington said, no, no, no, no, no. This is just the beginning. We need you guys to keep going out there. And then when the Kamath Pala hypoxia incident happened chamois had been in charge of growth at Facebook. He gave. Speech at Stanford in which he regretted his thing. It gets published and within three days he hasn't doesn't just Recanati goes out on the road and starts schilling for Facebook. And that was when I knew oh, my God think they aren't even gonna turn around with evidence. That is what motivated me to become an optimist, but was very outspoken and he's a poker player on the asking him about. Yeah. So I mean, he's a poker player. He's not. He's not a shrinking violet, right? Is a very strong personality. So I look at all these things, and I go, I never intended to become an activist. And now, it's simply a matter of if you member the three stooges movie, they're on a line. They're looking for volunteer and everybody takes a step back except one guy will I'm the one guy. And my point here is look I am not the perfect messenger for this stuff. Right. That's obvious. I stipulate that I'm going to do my best and not every instance, going to like it. But I do have a resume and some skills that I can use here as long as those are working with somebody. I'm going to keep do. It. But as soon as the opportunity retreat comes I'm going back to playing music, right? Okay. So in the next section. I'm talking about solutions, or what you think has to happen, but has it caused you said it caused you relationship, and has it changed your entire way to delete. Does it remove you from the Silicon Valley environment? You're like a leper kind of. No, no, it's not quite that bad. What else as it has changed the nature Lehner actions? I was pulling back already. And so there were a whole set of new younger companies does not plugged into. And that largely was a cultural thing I started to notice with Zing and then with Spotify. And then with Heuberger that silicon valley's best stories were companies whose philosophy in value system were not once I was comfortable with and so I passed on those three deals at very attractive times. And my is you know, other people can make that investment. That's great. But for me that didn't work, and I realized I couldn't manage other people's money. If I wasn't willing to invest. Right. And so I I decided that was it for me. I decided I wasn't going to be an active investor anymore. No cost. There was no. So in that sense. There was no cost, but it was regretful. Right. And so the way we would look at it is what's happened here is as I've stopped allowing technology to mediate my life. I've reengaged face to face with people. I've seen more if you in the last six months than the prior five years put together, and that's true. Lot of people in my life. And it's really fun because I'm reengaging with the people I love with the people I respect most and many of them are my inch some are younger some are older, but it's been really fun to re-engage. So it's not like I mean, there's some relationships that don't work anymore. That makes me really sad. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I haven't talked to anybody at Kleiner in ages in that really bums me out because I loved being part of that just kidding kidding take. We're gonna take another break. Now. We'll be back with Roger McNamee is the author of Zucker waking up the Facebook catastrophe. This is advertiser content from TSN Broadway. What if the future of shopping is a forty six story skyscraper covered in LED lights with a stage that looks out onto one of the most trafficked corners on earth. People talk about this concept of experiential retail. And what to me, it means is entertainment that people are assisting with your brand and enjoying that's David Horowitz. He's working on T S X Broadway, a maximalist retail space. That's not just about selling you things. It's about creating experiences taking some of those immersive experience components and overlaying it with a traditional retail venue creates a pretty powerful experience for people and also a very commercial one. So why is this the future of retail? Well, a recent study from San Francisco state university found that people are happier for longer when they spend money on experiences rather than on products brands want to create those experiences. So when it's time for people to buy that fun. They had influences what they buy its retail, plus entertainment. Retainment when you look at how consumer trends of changed people still buy a lot of merchandise, but people were buying experiences. Learn more about TSN Broadway in the future retail design at T, S X, Broadway dot com. We're here with Roger mcnamee's just talking about how Clinton Perkins don't talk to him anymore. But that's made of them. Would you want to do with this book till you write this book you worked with congress? He worked with European authorities. I think in many ways between you Susan fellers and others have sort of opened the open people to see that tech is not so benign. So I I give Susan way more credit than me, and you know. I give Tristan Harris more credits. Multifaceted approach the same messages Rene duress who works in our in this larger team, there's sandy parakeets. Who's now at apple, you know, there there's Tim Wu and there's a lot of like also you huge, right and David Kirkpatrick. There's a lot of people are contributing this thing, I what do you think it is? So in terms of the writing the book, and what I hope to get out of. It was really simple thing we were in a strategy session in Washington, somebody pointed out that you get to a point in the curve where you can no longer reach a large enough group of people face to face or around the table and converse that you have to start to have a different kind of media plan. And we got a lot of TV. But there was no way to sustain that. And they said somebody's got to write a book. And I thought Tristan was the right one to write the book, but he didn't really want to write the books. So again, everybody takes a step back. It's me I write the book. And so what's the goal? The goal is basically. I use the narrative arc of my discovery. So I'm Jimmy Stewart. This is rear window. I see something that looks like a crime scene. I pulled on the thread without any idea. What's going on? I learned and I use that narrative to teach people what they need to know to understand the business model how the algorithms work the cultures of these companies, which are the source of all the problems, right know, not because the whole stories in here, but rather because there's enough of story in here. So you can recognize the next parts as they come along. And then I finished the book by giving three chapters of guidance. Okay. You know, and the guidance is how to protect your children how to protect yourself. But it's also, you know, how to use your power with your elected representatives to get them to do the right thing. And then Lastly, I tell you hear the things I'm actually doing some which may work few some of which may not because I have a couple of them, so Google Google is the most intrusive surveillance company on the planet at least in sorry. I should say at least in the United States in China. They have competitors. But. Here. They're the most, but they're moving in their headed back there. So I have for the last year and a half played a video game against Google. It's version of frogger Google is the river in the alternative products at the logs, and I'm the frog. And so, you know, whether it's it's duck duck, go ghost to re or one password or exchange or safari, whatever it is they're all these products and every once in a while inadvertently, click on map some restaurant way. Napster good. And then I wind up fully in the river. And I have to go back to the beginning start. Again, I've actually had one period of time when we went to home months without touching Google, right? And so that's like my high scoring challenge. Naps. Well, but I was lucky because I wasn't using g mail and I have managed to persuade people to let me get away with not using Google docs. Which is the hardest thing. And I'm so into Vervoort. I'm so d-. Exactly. We're all deepen the river. The point is you have to do the things you can do because these products are really convenient. And they're really useful. And you know, I totally why because you think they're so there's and I also wanted to see if I could do it, right, right? Because you find them to be so interested from from a you will in my point is it was something I could do. So these things are so convenient with there's some there's some evolutionary thing about convenience, the makes you choose it, even when it's bad for you. And so what I thought I would do with. Yeah. I thought I would just see what I could do with this. And with Facebook what I've done is no politics. I used to do so much politics Facebook, they were people would hit my buttons. And I just go completely ballistic. And I might my I just don't let them do it. You know, I only share stuff for the ban in the book. I mean, people have pointed out. Hey, Roger you're talking about the book all the time on Facebook and Instagram you're actually doing as a Facebook and Instagram I go. Yeah. Why 'cause Facebook and Instagram are the best advertising platforms in the history of humanity. And if you wanna reach people to tell them about the problems of Facebook Instagram, there's really no better than Facebook IRA. Well, actually, it's not it isn't even it's just how it is. Right. And so I look at this as there's no obvious black or white answer here. This stuff's company at my problem is not was social media. My problem is not with surged by promise now, Google docs. It's with a business model that basically says that it's not only, you know in advertising, they say you are. Are not the customer, you're the product, but for Google and Facebook, you are the fuel and to put an end the problem is they gather all this data not to improve your customer experience. Although they do a little of that. They really do it in order to create other products that may never even touch you where you get no benefit at all. And importantly, they do this on the Silicon Valley model of shipping the product the minute it works without any consideration possibly they'll be collateral damage. Right. And so they're all these toxic. They have no sense of consequences. That's one of my thing that I try to push on. I I always make this joke that they should think of everything is what would be the episode of black mirror. If this product does worse, then don't make or put in putting things in place to create it. So that doesn't get to that level care. They don't have self affliction is. So that's the one thing I need to get through to people this lack of self. And I always say it's a miracle. They can see themselves in mirrors is not just Facebook. Everybody know, they're just it's Mark. Mark is probably the worst. Nobody's it is in this notion of what we're doing is. So important, right? The any means necessary to get there as justified. And of course, every tech company is always ship products. The first moment and let the users sort out the problems. It's just now you're talking about global things with huge political power. That's not elected in his unaccountably. Don't they see it? I have thought let me finish thought about this. Because I think this is really important. I think the answer here is that these guys are like chemical companies like in an energy companies that they there are toxic spills that happen as a consequence their action, and the reason recent margins are so high the reason the stocks are so valuable is because nobody is forcing them to pay the cost of cleaning up, the messes that create and I believe the answer the way you change, the incentive the way you improve the business model is not through any other country. Galatian it's by making them, legally liable and economically liable for the consequences. What they do. So in Germany today, we have a new story about, you know, Germany. Coming down on Facebook because they think the data collection practices are wrong. That is a fantastic approach. Another approach would be to sit there and say anybody who has a problem with the data collection processes. Why don't we sue Facebook? And collect the money. I think the latter pro will move Facebook a lot faster than the regulatory one because the lawyers will find some way to shimmy the regulatory thing. But if you make it about money, right? Well, that's always been my thing is that they they were like they're so profit on like, that's because the chemical companies don't have to put filters on their pipe, right? When the chemical guys could pour the lead in the chromium in in the river. It was they were really high margin businesses when she had to pay for that stuff about sex and two thirty the that should go that was that was designed to create innovation. Now, you're creating division for companies that don't need the protect. I would actually argue that the most negative forces on innovation in Silicon Valley are Google and Facebook and Facebook is innovative in any way. Someone asked me that I was like Facebook innovative. They just. Evan Spiegel is chief product officer. Facebook's far as I can tell in what's going on is just like AT and T at the time of the break-up where they could have been doing cellular telephony. They could have been doing broadband day. They weren't love. They those things were not part of what they were doing. And I think if you break up these companies, you know, I like to thirty for small companies, I think there's some scale of of which two thirty doesn't make any sense at all. And there's something where you go from being a kid to begin adult where you have to be responsible. The consequence to thirty is inappropriate in that situation. And but I think there's a broad immunity for people who don't it's basically a safe harbor from the actions of third parties, and and basically the way the industry set up. Everything's done by a third party. And you know, right now, you know, because of the ridiculous way we think about any trust in this area. Which is it only you only look at price increases these companies have gotten away with blatant and competitive things against competitors against suppliers, namely journalists and publications. And also, gets advertisers. And the great thing is that all you have to do is look at this business and economic terms is a barter there trading services for data. So you have to ask the question has the price of those services going up in data terms, and the answer is they've gone, Jim metrically? Well, you have to look at is that the the each individual apathy companies has been basically frozen for the last few years, and yet they're average revenue per user is going up geometrically, which is not the full answer. That's just as a marker for the fact that something might be worth investigating here. And the point I'm making is that these guys have changed the economy so profoundly with their surveillance it with this business model that it's one of those situations where this before and an after and in the before state you have the own vocabulary. Don't know how to talk about it. And I don't think they're evil. I don't think they're horrible people. But I do think they've been told their whole life that they're special that they're always right? And they're not responsible for the concept. Their actions and all three of those things, shall we say are less than complete description other companies like, you know, I've done these interviews Tim cook where he slapped it up. And the only reaction they had is. He's mean, I get I mean a lot to buy them. I'm a victim. You're too hard on us. I'm like, I don't think I'm hard enough. And it's a really interesting again lack of self perfection. The the tax, you know, people say, I'm positive towards Tim, but he's actually saying dealt things. Well, there there are two things that I think are worth noting here. One of them is that there's a simple rule of regulation, which is issue. Always take the first offer Google should've taken the two point seven billion dollar anti-trust judgment from the Europeans instead of trying to buzz off the should've taken GDP are they should have taken the five billion dollar deal. Now, the thing were negotiating is changing copyright laws to put you too bad against us. And you know, these guys they're so Cheryl sophistication around politics is so great. I don't understand why it has some trouble. I wonder where the boards of directors are on these wear come on. No. But my point is. Controls the whole thing that different point. Right. I mean, there's control, but there's also who's sitting there and saying Mark this isn't right. You gotta change. Right. When you think injuries that are deal with do how. But I'm saying some why is no one in the orbit doing it. Right. Why am I doing this? Because no one else is. I think probably in that Ford. I would say Hastings is probably Erskine Bowles might be the other hope so but I'm just saying we don't yet see the evidence that it's working, right? Right. And the problem is as you save marked unwanted change. She's not that's the Larry Sergei don't wanna change. They're not going to change. And you know, so as we look forward the reasons is so scary as I think Facebook's at the margin. I don't see the future problems coming from them nearly as much as I do from Google Microsoft and Amazon because I look at things like south this interesting. You added? Yes. So here's how I look at it and they're in different categories. So the two problems there's IOT internet of things. So smart devices with either Alexa, Google home front ends. And then there's the whole artificial. Intelligence for and so if we look at at at smart devices, you're now going to let surveillance come into parts of your life. You've never had it before. And you know, you say, okay, it's okay and the kitchen ago. Okay. And then you say, it's okay in the living room is it. Okay. In your office. His it. Okay. In your bedroom? Last week. We got news that nest which is a division of of Google that makes among other things security devices got hacked by some due to me family think that they were under a nuclear missile assault. You know? So these things not only have a surveillance problem. They also have Android as their underlying operating system, which is relatively less secure than some other operating system. So, you know, and I just think we need to have a conversation about what are the limits. I mean, I don't think this notion that people can collect data anywhere by Dana anywhere. And merging news it with impunity. I don't think that makes sense. I don't think I my point is I don't think it should be legal to sell people's location. Did I don't think the telephone carriers should be able to sell it? I don't think that the Bank people should be able to sell credit card data except under very strictly controlled terms. And you know, there are a whole bunch of nothing about kids. Right nothing about minors. And yet, they do it all the time. Then we get the AI. And here you got this problem of childish approach. But you have a childish approach. Here's a situation where you know, the obvious thing is to say, what do you want the world to look like do you want it to reproduce all of the implicit bias of the real world? I mean think about mortgages there's a thing called redlining where banks would historically restrict who could get a mortgage in certain neighborhoods, and they might do it based on religion or race or something else. Well, if you use only the data sets of the real world to train, the I that's what you're gonna get. That's exactly what they did get if you look at things that review resumes cheese in the real world workplace. Are there any biases on gender? Aren't there? Any biases on race? If that's the only data set you use. They go. Right into it. But now instead of a thing where it's a human right of appeal. It's a black box with no right of appeal. And I think that's deeply flawed. And you look at the facial recognition same China the surveillance. You've got all these things going on in that. So that's job one. In a let's think about the top three use cases economically today. Number one, getting rid of white collar work number to filter bubbles telling people what to think number three recommendation engines, telling people to enjoy your bye share. Well, I step back from it. And I'm reminded of Steve Jobs as notion of bicycles for the mind that's about human empowerment or jobs. What we think and what we like. And what we buy those are pretty fundamental elements of what makes us different will make us individuals, and we're going to delegate the things that make us unique to a computer that seems like the opposite of bliss. I got we've got to end finish up. But what do you think is going to happen where where are you going to lead with this? So you're you're stopping at all I want I want I want to drive back to bicycles for the mind. Okay. And I I don't know if soup confound can get there. I sure hope it can I think the City New York wants to go there. I think there'll be lots, you know, Steve case going around the country. Lots of lots of people are going to like this idea because we know technology can powers and why we stopped doing that is simply a flaw of a certain group of people at a certain moment of time having power to carry out their vision, and it was a genius vision on its own terms. The problem was it's own terms were not inclusive enough. And I mean, you've known me long enough to know that one of the things that really annoys people about me is that I have this tendency to be a non hierarchical and to be relatively inclusive in comparison to people in whatever jobs I've been in. And you know, if you're a beneficiary of of patriarch your beneficiary of you know, your skin tone. That can be annoying. It can't be although the mirror comment. I got you on that one member. No, no. Just you know, when he was doing, but we're not going to go into palm. But he said the Jamir on the bag the ladies could leg it night, literally almost through no shoeless shed and correctly so correctly. So I get your point corrected me on a thing. I said last night where I made a comment that would be typical of someone of my generation, and it just was not sensitive enough. And it really annoyed me that I made it. But the thing is this is the point I want to make we all have an opportunity to learn from. Yes, I'm learning from it. I learned every day. I'm learning stuff from you today. I've learned from ten other people today. Why don't they learn it? I'm I find two things I want you to come on to finish up is. I think they're incompetent to the task. And I don't mean stupid. I think they have none of the skills capable of doing this number one too. I think they don't even they see themselves as victims, and they can't believe people don't like him at that. To me is really the means they're not gonna learn, and it seems that that to me is the end of any kind of era of society when they're intolerant to criticism, and they consider it attack. Tax it valid criticism. And then at the same time, they actually don't have the skills to do to take on these complex societal issues. I think those are perfect frames. I add to the first point the one about the skill set. I think that they believe that there is a software or an AI solution to every problem. I do not once you get people into a filter bubble then they take onto believing. The thing themselves becomes a preference bio, you cannot cure preference. Bubble with code that requires human interaction people are in a cult. You cannot cure that people Facebook and Google live in a preference bubble there. So bought into their vision. And the vision is the code cures, literally everything. No, you cannot cure the I mean, you they created a lot of the polarization in America, but they can't fix it. And so we have to fix it for them. We have to take that responsibility away from them. And I think that's not a horrible thing who gets it who. Who gets the responsibility who receives it or who understands who understands and can fix it. So I'm a big believer that you have to change the business models that I think is now concluded has to come from the outside. I'm very encouraged by congress. We have forty new members average age roughly forty congress wasn't as bad as everybody thinks before because one, you know, Paul Manafort got raided by the FBI. So you didn't see the last ninety percent of the members of congress who've who got after him, and there was a lot of really good question. Mark did not hold up. Well, but the truth of of that whole thing is our elected officials understand. There's a problem what they need our help to get it across the finish line. We have to tell them. How important this issue is? And the the punchline in my book is we have way more power than we realize because the elected officials who want to make change on both sides of the aisle. They just need us to validate it we need to be picking them every single day. Just think of this like an indivisible group just sit there and say you guys you need in pick. Issue on focus on children, focus is democracy focused on privacy focused on on competition and innovation it just making. It was pick the one you like and bang on them and bang on them hard. Tell them, you know, to read this book, the other thing, you could do is remember you can change your own habits. Ask yourself this question. If I knew that by accepting a little bit of inconvenience, I could help to restore democracy. I can improve my own mental health, and that of my children, I could regain the right to make choices without fear, which is to say have real benefits of privacy. And lastly, maybe even make the economy better and more interesting and more diverse. Would I accept some increase in inconvenience and the point is each of us gets to make a different decision. I'm not going to tell you what to do. But I've shown you in this book how to do that. And what I do. And then you just make your own choice, but we're all in this together. And remember, there's only a few of them. I mean part of the problem with these comedies. No, no. But but hang on bear with them for just acting. They have blown up whole industries without replacement. They've forgotten that what Peter was talking about creative destruction was that you had responsibility. When you creatively destroyed something to rebuild something that was bigger and better and restored everybody to a happier place, and they have failed in that. They've been irresponsible, and we now have to call them to task. And that doesn't mean they're bad people. It just means that culturally speaking country was in a bad place. It directed them to a worst place. And now we're gonna come back. Right. Okay. So last question very short. Have you talked to Mark or cheryl's Simpson? The last time I heard from either one of them was Email on October thirtieth of two thousand sixteen the last time I spoke to anybody at Facebook was February two thousand seventeen. Do you have any confidence that they understand this now or trying I I don't know? I don't know my point is at this point. I'm obviously the wrong messenger. And so what I'm really trying to do is see if I can't help to prepare somebody who's a better messenger to talk to them. I mean, people don't use ad hominem. When they're ready to listen, you know, and so I'm I that's not important to me. Right. I'm work-. I'm worried about everybody else. Okay. I'm gonna focus on the ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine nine nine percent. And somebody else can focus on the top guys. All right. Roger this is great. You're not a crank stop at Facebook. I've calling him a crank. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was great talking to you. And we'll talk more. I think you're please don't ever change. You are a national treasure. I love you too. Thank you. I am not changing. I'm single handedly to get a privacy Bill passed in the next year. This when I'm sitting here, we got one in California. I want a good one. We have to put teeth into it. I'm okay green. Then we got to do it in New York. And if we have in California, I agree that is one of my goals. It's ridiculous. Do that together? All right fantastic. Thank you all for listening. You can also find more episodes of Biko decode on apple podcasts. Spotify Google podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. And please tell a friend about the show. You can follow me on Twitter at CARA Swisher, Roger where can people find you online at moon else on Twitter, and then the book is zonked, book dot com. That's a really fun site. The lots of good how to playing frogger still on it. No, no progress in my I if you go to on Facebook moon else has its own page, and I have a Roger McNamee fan page based on the center for humane technology is a humane tech dot com. And the one thing I would just say is this is. Something to be decentralized. Everybody can do their own Jaron Lanier. Great thing. There's there's no. But my men each person's listen to this. You don't need anybody's approval. Right. You go out. And do it your way. Do the thing that makes you feel right? Yeah. Just recognize it. I mean, people come up to see what do I do? Now say what do you feel like doing? They tell me. And I say, okay, go do Roger. So Roger now that you've done with this go check out our other podcasts could media and pivot. You can find those shows wherever you found this one. Thanks for listening to this terrific episode of Rico decode and thanks for editor Joel robbing our producer, Eric Johnson. I'll be back here on Wednesday. Tune in then. Everyone Scott Galloway here to talk to you about the show. I co host with CARA Swisher pivot, by the way, I clearly didn't write that she co host with me. I'm sick of being meek. Joe I am not a pip to her. Gladys your anyways every week. We'll talk free markets privacy and everything that's come out of the Pandora's box known as big tech. You'll hear talking about Zuckerberg bazo s- and other dark lords that have turned to the dark side of the forest giving you context, the you need to understand our moment in tech, and in time Carib brings on the ground reporting and all attempt to pull out some of the key things that help you understand the world we live in and give you the full picture for all this and more. Please listening. Subscribe on apple podcasts or wherever you're listening. I'm Sarah clip. The host of the impact from vox a show about how policy shapes people's lives. I live in Washington DC where the policy making process is really broken. But this is just not true. When you leave the beltway, so many cities and states are doing interesting exciting, sometimes kind of wacky things to tackle our country's biggest problems. So this season we are criss crossing the country, South Carolina, Baltimore, Vermont, the Oakland, New York. We are looking at cities and states as laboratories of democracy wrestling with serious problems and experimenting with bold solutions win someone is facing deportation. It should be a universal. Right. So I'm looking to take advantage of all opportunities for me and my family. The impact. Find us on apple podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows.
#1500 - Barbara Freese
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Only a I powered exercise bike. Carol is offering listeners a limited time offer go to Carol. FIT, A. Dot Com and enter the code rogan three hundred at checkout and get three hundred dollars off plus free shipping and a free one year subscription. My guest today is Barbara Freeze. She is the author of Industrial Strength Nile. It is a really interesting book on corporations defending the indefensible. I had a great time talking to her and I hope you enjoy it. Please welcome Barbara Freeze. The Joe Rogan experience. PODCAST. It's happening. Good, Joe, how are you pleasure to meet you pleasure to meet you? How did you get started on this? And how did how did you get interested in the subject? I got interested in this subject through climate change climate denial specifically I'm an environmental attorney. And back in the nineteen nineties, I worked for the state of Minnesota. And we found ourselves very briefly. Sort of on the front lines of the scientific debate over climate change in the way that happened was the state had passed a law, saying that utilities regulators should try to estimate the cost to the environment of generating electricity. We get most of our power from coal, or we did then and so we looked at coal missions. We looked at the traditional pollutants that we regulated for a long time, and in my client was the pollution control agency so I was familiar with those. What we also looked at though and I wasn't familiar with was. Co Two in its effect on climate change because while that was a big issue globally, there was already a global treaty signed to fight climate change states had not taken a look at that and what happened, was we? Struck a nerve with the coal industry, and they sent to Minnesota a bunch of witnesses bunch of scientists. To testify that we did not have to worry about climate change and wasn't going to happen, or if it did be just just a little, and we'd like it, and that all of those scientists the IPC intergovernmental panel on Climate Change though scientists that the rest of the world including the US government in the treaty signed by George H W Bush the ones that they were relying on those scientists were. Basically biased, they were biased because. They were in it for the money. Somehow they wanted research grants, or they had some. Political agenda it was kind of vague but but it was clear they did not want US worrying about this issue at all. The the told you it would be just a little and that you would like it would. Well a couple of things one of the arguments and you'll still hear this sometimes. Is that co two is a plant fertilizer which is true and therefore more co two makes the world a happier place for plants, and therefore better for everybody else and to the to the point where one of the coal interests who were in that who were parties had put out a video, saying that the earth was deficient in seal to and by digging up the coal, burning it. We were we were correcting that. yeah, so that was one of the arguments the other was you know it'll be mild? It'll be warm. The winters won't be as cold and and hey, this is Minnesota, so you know you guys are going to appreciate. Those warmer winters so yeah. There was a lot of crazy that that hasn't gone away. In fact, many in many ways. It's gotten a lot worse, but there were certainly enough to leave me shocked. Was that the first time you ever wear? The corporations do send in people to try to defuse arguments or Pollute the waters. I don't think I was quite that naive, but I'd certainly never seen anything like this. I mean these were people under oath you know and and they were saying things that were. Pretty Extreme and and many of which would just get a lot more extreme, and there were scientists the many. Yes, they're the ones I cross examined where mainly the scientists. They also sent some other witnesses as well so they didn't. They didn't actually work in a coal company. They were hired by the coal industry to come in testify and these scientists. Presumably, they are paid to do this. Yes, so, is that I mean? How do you track that like if you if you have scientists and they come in, and they say things that you know are not accurate or deceptive. How'd you find out what their motivation is? do do. Did you ask them if they've been paid? We were able to put some things in the record regarding how much money they gotten from different fossil fuel interests over the years. Years so we definitely did point to that argue about that. We didn't realize some of the witnesses had a much deeper history than we understood in science denial. One of the witnesses was a pretty prominent scientist. named Frederick sites who has since died but but we didn't know what I didn't know. When I cross examined him, I mean. This was a shoestring operation was that he had spent a lot of time actually consulting for the tobacco industry. so that would have been nice to to bring up talked about just before the PODCAST, the film merchants of doubt, and that's how I kind of got into your work right that film touches on that. How people who worked for the tobacco industry eventually went to work to deny the manmade climate change right well. In his case, he had actually been a physicist to as a very involved in cold. War weapons program, so he kind of came at it from that direction, and it wasn't until really he had retired from his remains, scientific and academic work that he was brought in to work for the the tobacco industry, but what happened was this handful of scientists Profiled in that movie, and and in the book by the same name they would also them work with these nonprofit groups, these free market groups that were strongly post regulation of industries, and so in those same groups than would address lots of different issues from tobacco ozone, and now to climate change, and and really a lot of other. Scientific issues as well for industries facing regulation. That someone should do a psychological profile of those people, particularly the tobacco people because it's like such a direct correlation between tobacco and cancer early it's the climate change thing. It's almost like boy. It's so hard to track it so far in advance, and if you say the climate change isn't real, what deaths are caused is directly attributable to that like how do you? Know what I'm saying, but like cancer cigarettes. It's like here's a person. They smoke cigarettes. They have cancer. You said it didn't come from cigarettes. What does that feel like to you to to be that person that? Actively tries to. Being, they're lying for money. They're lying. Let let me just back up one second and then talk about that just because I. WanNa make it clear that while the link between. Smoking and cancer may seem entirely obvious. There's enough of a delay that up. They opportunity for denial. The link between putting greenhouse gases in the air and and dramatic climate change that's actually as established well established as the links between and cancer is just that there it is a more complicated process and potentially more of a delay, and it depends in large part on what humans do along the way, so so it does. It does get kind of complicated as far as psychologically profiling the. Tobacco companies I, mean the tobacco executives. I won't presume to suggest this book does that, but but I do write a lot about what the these folks were saying not just to the public, but to you know internally we've got some internal documents, and and certain things that may have been public utterances, but we're clearly just sort of part of their internal rationalization, and for example I started the book with a quote from the head of Philip Morris who says. Says who knows what you would do if you didn't smoke. Maybe it'd be your wife. Maybe you drive cars fast, and you know that that's part of how I think. The tobacco industry approached this they would. They would imagine this sort of counterfactual where you know a world without tobacco without cigarettes, and then they would imagine what that would be like. And of course they always imagined. It was much much worse mother. Right. A read that part, and also the the man in question wind up quitting cigarettes so right. Yeah, he had to try. and. Do Right exactly. Yeah, that was the question and and we never really did find that out. It's such a strange. Way To live your life to to be deceptive in a way that you know is going to. I mean the there's. I? Don't know how many people have gotten cancer from cigarettes, but it's probably millions, and it isn't just cancer. Heart, disease, etc, so millions I mean I I've seen an estimate that in the twentieth century smoking killed. I. Want to make sure I. Get this right I. Think it was hundred million people. More than more than. Maybe, both wars World War, put together. It's seven million a year I. Think is the is the global. Death toll in the US, it's for four hundred eighty thousand a year. Yeah! Directly attributable right they they trace it to to directly attributable. Now you know it. These are extreme examples. Tobacco's the most famous and extreme example, and I talk about a lot of other examples, but I think it's actually. You know a fairly common thing for people to go pretty far down the road of denial when they are working in an industry, and and this is sort of the process. I tried to explore a little bit in the book. They're working in an industry. They're confronted with some accusation that they have caused harm. They check their gut and their gut says No. We didn't intend to cause harm. We don't feel guilty, and so their mind starts to come up with reasons why it must be wrong. And their tribal instincts, which are never more than just a millimeter below the surface for pretty much any of us, but but certainly in this case get triggered. So they immediately think well. These people accusing me must have an ulterior motive. They must be the money they want power on attention. They've got some sinister political objective and then the the other part of that tribal dynamic. They start thinking about themselves, and they're truly lofty mission, which isn't just to sell a product, but something else it's to. Protect Freedom, or if you're a slave trader, it's to rescue the Africans from terrible lives in Africa and bring them to the comfortable plantations That was actually an argument. Oh, yeah, the slave trade had a complete rescue narrative. I'm talking about the British slave trade here because. That was that was the first really intense campaign of industrial denial. I could find the BRI the British dominated the slave trade in the seventeen hundreds and the he. They faced a very powerful abolition movement at the end of that century, which was really going to the public and saying look at how brutal this is. They had witnesses. They torture devices. They had all kinds of evidence. and the British were really responding because they even though they dominated the slave trade, you know they had this notion of themselves as civilized and promoting freedom and being very humane, so this was starting to really affect the industry, so the traders and the planters got together formed a slave lobby they had a very organized campaign in response was a slave lobby. There was a very powerful slate lobby I mean the thing about the slave trade was you? Had people invested in it? From the royal family down to the the local bakers too many members of parliament I mean it was widely accepted fully legitimate industry, so the abolitionists really had their work cut out from for them. And they had all this evidence. The industry comes back and they. They knew they couldn't say oh. It's not so brutal. Came back with this complete counter narrative, which was we are rescuing these people that that they're the Africans. Are Eager to be purchased, they actually try to market themselves as how fit they are for for work, they enjoy that crossing across the Atlantic. There is singing dancing games of chance. And when they get to the plantations, it is incredibly comfortable. They get comfy little houses. It's like a cradle to grave welfare state. They don't have to worry if they get sick. We take care of them. We feed them. and they're doing way better than those poor peasants back there in Britain, those poor miners or those people working in the in the new factories, so that was that was part of it and the next part of it was that they. They said that if they had left them in Africa. If you didn't continue this trade, all of these prisoners of Of War would be massacred, or they would be eaten by cannibals, or they would die of famine, so they were. This was a rescue narrative, and here's the really clever part of this, because if you believe that you are rescuing them and persuade other people, I'm not suggesting the industry. Believe this, but if you can persuade people that you are rescuing them. The, flip side is that abolition would doom them. You would be shutting the gates of mercy on mankind because as one trader put it. The House of Bondage is really the the house of freedom to them I may have missed spoken that a little bit, but it was a truly orwellian quote, and and so that way you translate. into inhumanity and brutality, and and you portray the continued slave trade as a way to to save these people one one quote with great that if you were freed the slaves. And by the way this point, they weren't actually talking about freeing the existing slaves just stopping the flow of new slaves. But one of the quotes was that freeing the slaves would be cramming liberty down the throats of people incapable of digesting it. Wow Yeah. So this was the first example that you found of industry that was working to try to distort the perceptions of reality so that they can continue what they're doing, right? And you know they did a lot of other things that. We've seen modern industries doing they they you know I mentioned the reference to the. Poor, peasants and they also talked about you know. How would you like it? Britain if if people came in and started telling the peasants in the soldiers and sailors that they had rights. You know so basically this kind of. You know. Help us or you are next to your whole structure is going to collapse that kind of an argument and then they had an argument about basically. Failing to make a distinction between their industry and their interests, and the whole country, or rather in kind of an early version of what's good for the country is good for GM and vice versa, they said if you abolish this trade, it means universal bankruptcy for the Kingdom. It means Britain is not powerful anymore. It means Britain becomes a province of France it means in the sugar islands that the slaves will massacre the the whites exterminate the whites, and or maybe make the white slaves so they basically just created this incredible slippery slope that every that any kind of reform or certainly abolition of this industry would be disastrous for the entire kingdom. So how well documented is this in terms of the? The influencers like who who started this and is it was the they're like open discussions about how to spin this in a way that it's going to get people to think that slavery is a good thing well. I don't know about internal discussions within the industry. What we do have our lots and lots of books and pamphlets because this was all. All done in writing. We also have some hearings and we have a parliamentary debates. They were recorded not verbatim, but people try to write them down, and so we have some version of what was actually said. In these debates in various hearings, they were parliamentary hearings, so there's actually quite a lot of evidence of the arguments being made in their own words. So and then this was primarily in Britain right right. This is well. That's what I'm talking about here. Obviously there was we had our own abolition movement here Ryan Debate. That's what I was. GonNa ask you did those same arguments of. Did they actually presented in the United States? Some of them did I in the United States it was different, because of course you had an entire society a- built around slavery, and I read one one reference when historian, saying that about half of the defenses of slavery came from clergy. It wasn't quite the same sort of clearly. Here's an industry and here's an audience that they're talking to So that's one of the reasons I didn't focus quite at all. Really on the on the American. Clergy, that's what this this historian said I. I didn't dig into those they did by the way they'll find one. Source and now I don't remember if he was a plantation owner or something else who described? the called slavery. You know basically a way to make people as happy as can be, and and call it the ideal of communism, which was funny because you don't even think of communism. Of that debate is existing, this would have been in the eighteen hundreds now but he was saying that the North is exploiting. These workers not taken care of them, but in the south. We we take care of them. We make them happy as slaves twos. So. Is this a pattern that existed before that. Like is this is there? Is there any evidence that there was something I mean? It seems like whenever people start to make money doing something whenever a corporation particular corporation right because diffusion of responsibility in a large group of folks and they have this. You know this obligation to earn money for all the people that are involved in the corporation, so they start rationalizing their decisions, and then twisting things around, but is this. Is this something that can be traced back before then. Is this an a natural human trait? This kind of deception well I can't specifically answer whether it can be traced before then because I didn't try to trace it, but but I would not be at all surprised because I. DO think it's natural human trait I mean I one of the issues that I. I started to struggle with on this book was deciding to what extent people lying in winner. They actually deceiving themselves. And I realized early on. There was just no way to write this book. If I was going to try to Parse that out and I also decided. It doesn't matter that much because I think these are really very much intertwined. and They're both equally destructive, and they're both I. Think equally responsive to these kind of external circumstances that we create in corporations when we form corporations, and we put them into into marketplace, so I do think it's part of Human Nature I do think we've created this system that brings this out and people really encourages it in in so many ways I. You mentioned the diffusion of responsibility, and that is huge because we do know and I dip into the social psychology and here not a ton of because that science is still relatively new and kind of you know a little bit thin compared to the environmental science that I that I talk about which is very very deep, but. We do know that when you when you defuse responsibility, it makes it very easy for people not to feel responsible for the harm that's done, so if you've got a corporation, of course, you have division of Labor. You also have division of management from ownership, so if you're a lower worker and you're told to lie about something or cause some harm well, you're minding your own business. And you and you let the your boss take responsibility. If you're the boss you're focused maybe on. Your employees, and certainly on your shareholder, so if you're lying about something or causing harm, it doesn't necessarily feel like a personal selfish act of deception. It probably feels like an active loyalty and responsibility to your. Shareholders your shareholders aren't going to care or no because. First of all, they're far away. They they don't really know what's going on. They have maybe just temporary transactional interest in what's going on just bought the stock. They want to sell it quickly. Make some money so so you don't really have anybody there. Who feels really responsible for this? There was a definition of. Of The corporation from the twentieth century in something called the synnex dictionary. As an ingenious device for obtaining personal profit without personal responsibility, and of course that is exactly what we intend from corporations, because they are, we grant limited liability to the shareholders, and and that's why it's that it's that protection from risk that people are willing to pool their capital, and that sort of very key to the very idea of of a corporation, and then of course, the the focus on prophets means that you're constantly focused on on money, and you know every in the most short term way, not even long-term profits, which would be a narrow enough focus but then there's a lot of other things to add to it. you. You've got competition. By definition certainly, if you're an competitive markets, we want there to be competition, and so that means you are already in a kind of tribal mindset. and you've got the ideology of the marketplace which. You know we can go back to Adam. Smith be invisible hand, and basically the notion that if you can pursue your own self, interest in the marketplace will automatically convert that to public good, and that does work in a lot of cases and probably worked a lot better in the seventeen hundreds, but when you've got these enormous. Organizations that have incredible market power, and these very new risky technologies often It is much harder to to be confident that that's going to work, and then more recently. We've seen that that idea that you don't have to worry about the social consequences of your commercial action. just get intensified. We we had you know Milton Friedman in Nineteen, seventy, writing this very persuasive article saying that the. The only real objective, the only legitimate objective of a corporation is to maximize shareholder profit, and if they're talking about protecting the environment, doing any of these other things that's socialism, and that's a legitimate, and that really did a lot of people that movement really move forward, and then it got more extreme in the nineties and and twenty first century where you've got this this strain of. Intense faith in market forces that was manifested by Alan Greenspan at the Fed by the coke brothers. David Coca passed away. So it's a not Charles Coke and the network of influence groups that he created the the think tanks, the free market groups, these different academic groups. So you know when things that I try to trace a little bit in the book is talking about the rise of. The consumer movement in the environmental movement in the Sixties and seventies and people saying wait a minute. We need corporations to to be aware of these problems, and we need government to regulate corporations to make sure that our cars are safe in our ozone layer's not destroyed but then starting in nineteen eighty. When Reagan is elected, you suddenly see those. Those concerns replaced with a concern overregulation, and really a backlash that that you know has has come and gone, but basically intensified over the years, and and now of course we have a situation where. Not only do we have a government unwilling to regulate, but we have one that is rolling back critical regulations that were put in place by. Previous administrations. Of course influenced by these very corporations to do that. Absolutely and I mean it gets. It gets kind of complicated here because. You think for example about Charles. Coke Industries. It's based on oil refining, so that is very much based in the fossil fuel industry, but but the coke network is very ideological, passionately ideological and they just happened to coincide with with being in the in the fossil fuel industry, but you have a lot of other groups that have received money from oil companies from the coal industry, so it gets kind of integrated I do try to not treat them all this. In the book I tried to kind of differentiate and really do have a difference between the kind of COQ perspective. The coal industry perspective the oil industry perspective, and then all of these little free market groups actually fit. Fit more around coke side, but they all seem to have one thing in common that they're rationalizing justifying their actions because they WANNA continue to make profits regardless of the impact on the environment or the people exactly and this. That's a weird thing, about just the idea of a corporation itself. It's almost like a diabolical vehicle for for allowing people to do things you know to to to be able to do something and say hey, we're going to do this as a collective and therefore no, no individuals are responsible for the results of the collective particularly. If you're not the one who gets to decide what gets done, you're just taking orders in yours. Doing your job and your job is segmented. Compartmentalized so you're not. You're not dumping anything in the river bomb. You don't have to worry about that, but I like your new car as a beautiful house that you got. You bought the profits of poisoning lakes. Well, that's exactly it in fact I suggest in the book that if you were a super villain, and you wanted to create a society that would ultimately destroy itself by imposing huge risks on each other and on the planet. You would probably create something that looks a lot like our current corporate dominated global economy in the sense of these organizations that amplify yourself interest that diminish your sense of responsibility that amplify all of your biases. You'd have justifying ideology to make it all seem fine. You would have the responsibility so diffuse that nobody would really feel too badly about it. and you give these. These folks in credible political power including constitutional rights so that they could dominate your democracy so that they could. Basically corporations can do whatever is legal used to not be that way. They can do whatever they were authorized to do by their charter, and then they'd have to stop smoking. Get the permission to build a canal, and then they'd and they'd be done and go away. Eventually, we made them immortal and they could do whatever they wanted as long as it's legal. And then we gave them huge amount of power to determine what actually is legal by influence, our democracy going to ask you about the what is the birth of a limited liability corporation? Like when when did all that occur? Well? They go way back. I mean during the slave trade they were. They didn't necessarily call them that, but they were essentially owned by shareholders, and so they would you know pool their capital, so it's very similar we've had corporate corporations are centuries old. If you go back to I think some early universities and things. But, we we didn't have kind of general purpose. Corporate laws in this country I think until. Mostly in the eighteen hundreds so when we first formed this country. You would have to go to the legislature. There were only a couple of of significant corporations around even at the time of the founders, and so that's why you really don't see corporations in the constitution. They're not mentioned because they weren't very powerful when they did get more powerful. You have some quotes from some of the founders. Saying Oh, this is this is a little scary and then of course they became very powerful in in the eighteen hundreds. You end up with gilded age, and so then you have folks like Teddy. Roosevelt are saying. Wait a minute. The you know this is a creation of law, and so we get to determine how much power has and he. Responded with the kind of trust busting movements, breaking down some of the really big old trusts. And and that was probably the first big pushback where where the government said, wait a minute, you corporations are too powerful. We're going to try to produce that power and then I. Think the next big phase of that would have been in the depression where you have the the new deal coming in and saying okay banks, you just wreck the economy. We're going to regulate you going to give workers more rights. We're going to create social security. We're GONNA. Do all kinds of things that that diminish corporate power over the democracy? And then it happened again in the sixties and seventies, and what I think is is that it might be about to happen again. Given that there is now so much concern about corporate power. citizens United Influence over democracy. people worried about concentration of wealth at the very very tippy top, and obviously people were that we are unable to deal with climate, change and Another factor would be the power of social media corporations to influence elections to influence public discourse They seem to have kinda snuck in in a way. That was really unexpected and people didn't see it coming right well. I mean that's actually the pattern. People never see it coming. All of these chapters pretty much begin with some kind of a discovery. And some industry races in there, and takes advantage of it I mean even slavery. The discovery would have been the new world and this enormous commercial opportunity, if you can just get the workers in there to to grow the tobacco in the cotton and sugar But but sued have the discovery you have an industry springing up to take advantage of it, and and making a lot of money and changing social norms along the way. Then problems are emerging obviously with slavery. They were inherent, but problems will emerge other people outside the industry discover those problems and pay attention to them. Draw attention, and then eventually you get to a law now. That's kind of an artificial ending, because you have to make sure that law gets enforced, but but in almost all of these chapters you get to some form of government action where they say. No, you can't do that anymore. We we stopped this industry. We ban this product, or at least we're gonNA, try to tweak your behavior but that process first of all it takes a long long time and enormous damage can be done in the meantime. but that process doesn't work. You don't even get your your somewhat happy ending. If the industry has become so powerful that that it determines. Whether it gets regulated or not in it blocks those regulations well. That's what I was getting, too. Because that kind of seems we're we're at now with. Corporations like facebook. Like they have an insane amount of power, and that power is actually being used to dictate who becomes president and that's what's really strange. It's like there's never been a corporation that. mean. Other corporations did their best to influence the market and influence regulations in a way that they can continue to profit, but this is a different thing where they're literally influence in influencing directly who becomes the person who runs the country, which is a new thing, well it. It's a new thing when they do it through information It's not a new thing where the do it through money. Right That's that's pretty well established, but but yeah. I mean you know Ah Somebody Probably not me because I don't know this. This industry well enough, but but the pattern is so clear that that it's clear where we're we're. We're heading right I mean the problems will get worse and worse. Other people talk about them. The problems are very new I think because we are talking about problems related to information and that you know and social media. How to social media affect social animals I mean this gets really complicated. It's going to be hard to figure this out But in addition to. Having their own denial about what harm they inadvertently unleash. They are vectors for the denial of other industries night, and so that's one of the reasons climate denial for example is still going to be out there and deeply rooted for longtime, even though the oil industry which played a huge role in in building it up has basically set up. We accept the climate science. We know this is happening. In fact, the Exxon Mobil even says it accepts the Paris Agreement, which says that we have to limit warming to well below two degrees. Centigrade and that sounds small. That's actually a pretty dangerous amount of warming, but that's the target of this Paris agreement although it also says. We're GONNA. Try to limit it to one point five degrees now what that means is dramatically reducing our emissions. I over the next ten years. I mean if you WANNA limit to one point five degrees. We're talking about cutting our emissions by fifty percent. That means pretty much. Cutting. Fifty percent of our of our fossil fuel use. That that's a simplification, but then you have to go for that more aggressive target, two zero net zero emissions by twenty fifty, so we're talking essentially about this huge industry, having to either completely transform itself or go away within thirty years, and then by the way after that, you have to go into negative emissions, which means building a new industry that sucks carbon out of the air and buries it. We haven't even really begun to talk about that, but but that's assumed what we're going to have to do. Because we have now delayed for thirty years, thanks in large part to fossil. Fossil fuel denial, so so you got Exxon saying yeah, we. We understand Paris and all that, but if you if you look at their own projections about what they think's going to happen, they put out these formal projections of how much oil will be consumed in the whole world and what our emissions are going to be. They still project emissions going up, and then sort of leveling off until twenty forty, by which time in fact they need to be very very low, so it's kind of like the tobacco companies. The Big Tobacco companies are no longer denying the basic facts, they admit. This product is addictive and a quote in the book from one executive saying. Yeah kills about half of our of our lifetime. Smoking customers are most loyal customers. So. But despite having four decades, said if we really believed this was harmful, we wouldn't sell it They're obviously continuing to sell it quite enthusiastically, and that's kind of where we are I. Think with the major oil companies, coal is still in denial at are still denying it, but but. The major oil company interesting yeah. The problem but they are still planning on selling more and more of their product, and and so that is sort of the kernel of denial that industry has yet to grapple with, but it right now at least temporarily inseparable in terms of our ability to move around disturbing goods meet kind of have to have oil to have to have gasoline petroleum products. You, you do a moment. Right them all, but you know. Fortunately we really do have the technologies to to. In fact, slash our emissions will don't have as political will, but you could I mean I. It is not impossible to say in ten years. We are going to have closed Certainly, all of our gas plants in our natural gas plants will either have carbon capture, or they will be closed. It's not impossible to say all of our cars. Certainly, all new cars are going to be electric and we're going. We can build an infrastructure that can be done. It is a massive undertaking. It is I mean when people talk about the green new deal. sometimes that rhetoric includes World War Two and I. think that's actually appropriate because we are talking about a massive change. That is going to transform our. Economy and at the same time hopefully address some of the qualities that we already have in place I mean that that's going. Make a trickier but most of the deals. Are for. Example very aware that we're GONNA be hurting coal miners. We're going to be hurting oil rig workers and trying to put in place some ways that that we can keep them from suffering. Help them find other jobs help their communities diversify and whatnot. So you know if if we are going to avoid what will be a multi century catastrophe in terms of climate change? This is what we have to do and and I. It's hard for me to even say the word catastrophe because I know how people here that I know it sounds like a crazy exaggeration. Do you really think those of this point? Well? I think it does to enough people that it was. Is it because of propaganda because it seems. Yeah, right. Hit Ten people that when they give you the worst projections the things that we should avoid. When I was talking about these oil executives still selling oil. Is that right now? They have to I. Mean I understand that there? There needs to be a shift and I'm absolutely in favor of that. But if there was no oil right now, they must cut it off crisis. Yeah, we have a real issue, right? We have a real issue I mean. Humanity has an issue and we shouldn't be thinking of it. As the oil companies issue or or the climate issue. It's you know it's a humanity issue. How are we going to deal with this and unfortunately? You know this isn't something capitalism. Is set up to deal with. That's about growth. It isn't about. How do we take this massive industrial enterprise wind it down and replace. This technology was something else. Is the solution finding some method of profiting off pulling carbon from the atmosphere? It seems like if if it becomes very effective to do that, that could be an enormous way that these companies can kind of shift. Yeah, well I'm not sure that these companies will shift. Someone could because they do have drilling, technology and whatnot, so they could end up being. Leaders in actually bearing the carbon that they once extracted and put into the atmosphere. That would be weird. One one of the things that's so weird about this whole debate for decades now is that. You, you've got folks talking about how incredibly terrific markets are and how they can handle all these problems and you know starting in the ninety s or so folks were saying great. Okay, let's put a price on carbon. Because otherwise the markets are totally blind. If you can pollute completely for free, the market has no incentive to reduce polluting or to draw carbon out of the air and bury. Bury it, but the people who seem to have the most faith in the power of markets are the ones most opposed to putting a price on carbon, so the advances we might have made, and and some states actually do have a price on carbon, but the advances we might have made more nationalist globally have been blocked by people who who love markets an here's. Another is part of this. Country! Who's like our main competitor and not incidentally huge huge polluters China extensively Communist. They believe more in market power than. You know the the right wing of the Republican Party they have put a price on carbon. And they are using market forces to try to reduce pollution. Really, so China's more progressive in in terms of trying to reduce pollution than Americans. Well China's polluting a huge amount. Was GonNA. Say on this particular issue of how can the markets help us reduce pollution? They're using market forces to try to produce their pollution, and we're still not another really divisive aspect of this is that it's become some sort of a left versus right ideological issue like there's a lot of people on the right that I've had conversations with people that really don't have any idea what they're talking about where they instantly deny that climate change is a real issue, and when you press them on it, and just it's one of the benefits of having. Sort of long form conversations is that if you're doing this on CNN and it's one of those talking head things where you only have seven minutes industry people shouting over each other very hard to get to the heart of. Why do you believe this? Yeah, but when you're talking over long? PODCASTS hours long. You get to these people and. They'll adamantly deny that. It's an issue. But they don't know why. Do you know what I'm saying. It's like a thing. If you're a right wing, pundit or right wing, person you saying right-wing things. You're going to say climate change on our issue. What are you right now? IS THE ECONOMY AIN'T? GonNa, do right now is support jobs and people. There's a lot of people need put food on the table. There's a lot of people that need, and then they get this sort of a ranting, raving pro economic standpoint and it becomes. A denial of environmental problems that's becomes left versus right. It's very strange. I don't understand why anyone like how can that not be a universal issue? How could anyone not want? The world would be better for our grandchildren. How how could anybody not want less pollution? But it it becomes this thing where we have all these different categories that are left and right, and once you're on one side. You automatically seem to oppose those things that are in the other parties idea well in fact. There's one Survey I site in here. That showed that. Climate Change was the most polarized issue in the American political landscape, even more than abortion, really More than worship now that was a snapshot in time, and I think maybe that's changing. Certainly you see with younger Republicans. A lot more concern about climate change, but. You're absolutely right. I mean it remains very polarized, and I don't think you can understand it. You know it's not in I I don't think it makes sense from ideological standpoint I think it makes sense from a tribal stand my we have divided, and and it feels good to believe the same things as the people you are affiliated, and it's tense to to not believe the same things and you saw. That's a source of hardship, and you know the reason. It's such A. A big problem here is that this isn't just about making the world better for our grandkids. It's about avoiding catastrophes for our grandkids and so that's why you know. Eight is finally rising to the surface within the Democratic Party. I mean it's been ignored or downplayed for too long, and certainly in the national campaigns it was never perceived to be important, enough or winning enough issue to get a lot of attention now we see largely driven by the Youth Movement Insistence that yeah, it's. It's time absolutely time. It's thirty years pastime that we get very aggressive about this, and and so I don't know what happens now with with covert with George Floyd. Obviously there are other issues dominating the news right now, but I really hope we hang onto this issue as critical one for the election, and and don't stop there because this is going to continue to require lots of pressure to make sure that we. We make the changes we need. Yeah I don't think it's going to go away I. Think, but the other issues do come to the forefront, but what what you said I think is really interesting is that it gives you comfort to agree with other people that are in your party and your group, and that's something that is exacerbated by social media and manipulated by social media, and it's one of the weird things about it is. A Corporation could legally. Create hundreds, if not thousands of fake pages and then use those to make. Sure, you're wherever the Internet research agency from Russia that had an impact on two thousand sixteen elections and. Rene Duress to did some pretty fascinating work on that where she did a deep dive into how these accounts whether it's facebook or Instagram, or what have you been manipulated and how the how they use them? Where the in one point? They had a pro Texas group meet up. At the exact same time as a pro Muslim group on the exact same block like they manipulated it like there was no child's play. Exactly it was like they were moving pieces on a chessboard and they they'd literally set up altercations and you would imagine that. I mean I. Don't know what these fossil fuel companies or or any kind of company that's involved in any some anything that would be. Considered sketchy environmentally. I don't know how many manipulating sites they run or manipulative social media accounts. They run, but I would imagine that's got to be part of the game plan. Because online discourse, it's so easy to throw monkey wrenches into the gears, his three thro- sand into the gas tank. It's so easy to sorta monkey with the the numbers and change the ideas that are being discussed and change the narratives that it's. It's A. It's just a way that you can sort of shift the public's interests and opinions on things I mean if you're willing to lie and manipulate you act, you have a obviously a huge advantage, but there's also just the basic human tendency that when we talked people, we already agree with. We tend to then become stronger in our opinions, and so we we get polarized basically, and that's even before social media. Media, so then you sort of weaponize that polarization that tendency and you've got an algorithm that says well. If you like that video, how about this video and suddenly people are getting. You know totally radicalized. You know on on climate, change or on other issues and so yeah, I mean it is. It is a huge problem. How do we overcome the social divisions the social distrust? How do we overcome the denial? and you know I think if if the patterns in in the book come to the fore we will, society will find ways to build trust again. It'll probably have a lot to do with maintaining long-term accountability, and not just a flash reaction to what you hear, but it could very well take decades and. We will have a lot of damage done in the meantime. Wonder if there's going to be a time where there are laws against social media manipulation like that because right now they're not and there will be yeah. It seems like there has to be because if you see. I can't imagine I'm not naive enough to imagine that. What's happening with the Internet research agencies and that's not happening here. It has to be and they. They understand the effectiveness of it. It's been well documented. The idea that corporations are going to step back and go well. That's on our business assigned what we do. I mean that's an incredibly effective tool, and if you're GONNA use it to manipulate opinions on whether it's climate, change or anything, you don't pharmaceutical drug overdoses, whatever whatever it is that you want to manipulate people with. I would imagine that that's a gigantic issue, but. It's not something that really gets discussed in terms of in terms of passing legislation to prevent that stuff. Yeah, and hopefully it gets more and more disgust because it is very scary, it turns out we humans are easily manipulated and were easily manipulated even before social media, but now there is this incredibly sophisticated engine to drive us apart to drive us in the direction that those best at manipulating us want us to yes, and it's addictive, which is even crazier? It's a completely addictive mechanism. Really is people are lost in their phones and lost in their computers when they're checking their social media stuff, and that's one of the war, interesting things about these social media algorithms that it's been determined that when people are upset about things when they're angry about things, they post more, so it's more valuable, so the algorithms favor people being upset, so they'll send you if you if you find abortion, hot topic or environmental issues. They'll start sending you those. That's what's GonNa. Show up on your feet. You're GONNA get more. The is what you engaging. And it's fascinating. Is it's it's not even really. Malicious in that it's just pragmatic because I have a friend who did an experiment, my friend. Ari wanted to find out what would happen if he just looked up puppies. So he just looked up puppies on Youtube and looked up puppies everywhere in his feed overwhelmed by puppies, so it's not like this some vicious plot to only feed you things that you hate just human nature. We tend to look things that piss off. It was joey. And so now we have a very sophisticated machine to drive us in the direction of getting more pissed up, and that's a fisted machine is clearly using the same sort of deceptive deceptive tactics to try to diminish their responsibility for what they're doing. Yeah, exactly and you know when one of the things that makes these tactics I think work so well is that they really are based. In human nature I think that if you are an executive. you know your your instinct is that you are doing fine, and your instinct is that the other side is wrong in that, and that psychological reflex than you know, become a foundation for a corporate strategy, and then that corporate strategy becomes the basis of kind of its own new industry of of Public Relations, folks and advertising people in lawyers, and and think tanks who will promote that, and then that becomes an ideology. That's certainly what we saw the progression for climate, change and I, and I think or climate denial. and that's a dangerous trend. Do you co- you do covers social media, and in this I don't really get into it. I mean I talk a little bit about Yeah, no, it's really not a factor. I mean the more the most recent industry that I talk about the two most recent industries are the fossil fuels denying climate change, and also Wall Street denying the the The. Products and activities and and hazards that led up to the financial crisis of two thousand eight. That's A. Can of worms in and of itself right? You Read Mattei. Read some of his work. Yeah, he's vampire squid. Clamp to the face of humanity. Yeah, that's immortal lines, so his description of Goldman Sachs his work is fascinating and terrifying on. You and he's not a guy with a financial background, so he had to do a deep dive into the all that stuff for years. It's sort of get a grip on how they do things what they're doing. And the the idea that that is the backbone of our civilization can terms. Our economic civilization is. CRAZY WHAT A goofy system! Yeah, and and of course that industry has become. so much bigger as a percentage of GDP and so much more powerful without any evidence, social benefits as far as I can see and. I'm also not a person with a financial background came to this. You know as an environmental lawyer, and not as a particularly naive person, but I have to say I was really astonished at at the depth of the exploitation. I mean just the attitude. It wasn't even like where we think we're trying to do the right thing for our clients or are. We think we're trying to do the? The right thing for you know society it was. It was just this full-on. Take the money and run and and exploitation. I mean there's they have this cute little code on Wall Street that was prominent before the crisis I hope it's not so prominent now it's I. B G Y B G which stands for I'll be gone. You'll be gone. which was the answer when somebody said? Wait a minute were pumping all this risk into the system. This investment products going to fail. This is all gonna hit the fan. This is all going to collapse. I B G Y BG and ends bonuses for selling these crazy risky products We're all frontloaded, so you sell somebody a year product and you get the bonus. Right up front, so you don't care with the long term. Risk is and the attitude toward their clients. In there, there's A. An author in Britain. Who Interviewed? All kinds of people in promise them anonymity from the British. The British financial industry, but it overlaps very much with the US one and the the culture was hey, rip your Clinton's face off. You know you eat lunch or you? be lunch, and I mean a lot of really really vicious stuff going on and. Risks, that? Y- were were so obvious that you can't believe that. They were denying them I mean obviously. When there's a housing bubble, it will burst and there was an obvious housing bubble. It was denied for long long time, and that ultimately became the basis of all of this really toxic debt got magically transformed into AAA investments, and it wasn't I think that the industry was denying that it was going to burst. They just felt they were going to get in and out before it bursts that they get past the risk off to the next party before it happened so I don't know. Do we call that? rationalization is that I mean it's I put it all under the very broad category of denial but It actually the head of J. P.. Morgan later would testify to the financial crisis inquiry. Commission somehow you know. We just missed the fact that housing prices don't go up forever. I don't think they really did miss. That really said that were that what? Said, yeah I. I may have order to off but That's actually what he said I suspect. He regretted. Phrasing it that way because. That's pretty astonishing. How many IB G. Y. BG tattoos are out there. It's a good question. Is probably a lot right disturbing? There's probably a lot. You know. There's one actually one anecdote. In the book that I retold from a book that Mike Hudson wrote called the monster, and he's talking about first of all they we had this new breed of mortgage lenders, the folks who actually went out to sell the subprime subprime mortgages to the low income people who were often defrauded and certainly not the most sophisticated financial consumers, and this one particularly bad company. was without their. Lehman Brothers sent a vice president to visit with this company because he wanted to know how they were doing this was I think in in the Ninety S, and he writes back and says. That this is a sweatshop. It is high pressure sales for people in a weak state, and it is a check your ethics at the door kind of business. And Lehman Brothers writes back, and says we enthusiastically welcomed the opportunity to partner in your future growth, and ended up in fact, partnering with them and financing these these mortgages, and then buying them packaging them up selling them to investors, and then of course, eventually becoming the biggest bankruptcy in history. And getting bailed out well, not Lehman. Brothers three other ones didn't right. That's what it crazy. Just sorta laid it out like that. Well. Yeah, this is a internal stuff that that came out, but yeah the the fact that they they were. So happy to to partner with an unethical business, and in fact there's also a lot of evidence. That Wall Street was just continuing to get the mortgage lenders to reduce their standards even lower because you know you start out with these very very aggressive new companies. These weren't banks were lending companies, and they were new, and they wanted to get huge very quick, and they were super aggressive, but they made so much money that the more traditional banks started following and doing what they had been doing, and so all street gets involved in, and basically they're saying. You don't need tation of income and you know the the banker would say the lender would say well. How do I know they're going to pay it back and Wall Street would say you don't need to worry about that and in fact, they didn't because Wall Street would buy it The the point wasn't will ever be paid back. The point was is the is the interest rate on the surface of the mortgage high enough that we can package it into what looks like a lucrative investment and of course package, lots and lots of these together and then slice dyson and stack them and. Keep rearranging them and and essentially then. Threatened and corrupted the and manipulated the ratings agencies so that they would give them aaa ratings so that your pension fund could buy it. That was one of the things that was so disturbing about Mattei is work. It's so sophisticated. That takes so long to understand how they're doing it and what they're doing that. The average person doesn't have a background in finance as you get into it or economics. If you get into it, it's like. You have to start from scratch several times and go okay. What? What? How? and. Why is this legal in house? This legal and and When you're dealing with just numbers to that's what's disturbing to me. There's something about environmental impact that at least it seems somewhat tangible like it's a thing, right? It's carbon in the atmosphere. There's an impact to the temperature rises. The sea level rises. The you know what I'm saying like. There's physical things whereas numbers are these weird things where if your whole business model is predicated on increasing the amount of numbers that you earn. You can find ways especially. If other people are willing to go along with that, you can find ways to screw with those things and that's that's the most disturbing thing about finances to me like the Bernie made off situation for example. Like how many people? Had to know that there's something wrong with the amount of money they're earning. How many people had to know that? How many people had how many people and how many people like listen these are just numbers, which is getting these numbers we're putting numbers in. We're getting numbers back. Numbers back than get in, so we're good. Yeah, yeah, well I think any industry like finance that is incredibly complicated and abstract in that way, that doesn't feel quite right, but but who really knows is one that is absolutely right for denial, because the complexity means, nobody really knows the risk, it also means the industry can, and it did go to Congress and say you don't get this. which was true? And so okay, we're selling these derivatives and yeah. Maybe they're super complicated, and nobody knows what they are, but you regulators hands off we the market we are self disciplined we. The industry can will not take crazy risks, and by the way you should get rid of those depression era laws, so we can do some other stuff, and then eventually, of course you have the financial crisis, but the abstract nature of all these numbers also means. That would ever little Bell Mike. Go off in somebody's head. Saying this is going to hurt somebody. It's going to be muted. It's going to be ignored because it just feels so abstract. Okay Sell Selah by now you sell the security. A pension fund and maybe weighed on the line. It'll. It'll fail, and maybe some people won't get to retire, but you don't know who they are. And maybe that won't happen I mean the more abstracted is, and of course, the more globalized our economy becomes. The more distant, the impacts, the harder to imagine they are and the easier to ignore and deny. And then the add in the fact that they're able to manipulate politicians exactly the fund their campaigns, they the the really creepy ones, when they give the money to speak like enormous sums of money after they get out of office like that can be a little corrupting ha, but it's just so gross obvious when you giving a former president or a former secretary of state, a quarter of a million dollars to talk for an hour. Like why what what does that person saying so fascinating? That's a very high rate of return for. Half an hour work well when Bernie Sanders was upset at Hillary. Clinton released transcripts. Let me hear what you said then. This is not a chance in hell she's going to. Me What do they say? During those things that warrants a quarter of a million dollars or more, it's a it's a shady system and there's no. Motivation to shift it change well. There's there's no motivation for those who are benefiting from it. Certainly those who have the most money in and are able to manipulate it. I do think there's I mean if you were a politician. And you were constantly raising money. I mean I think many of them hate that and would love system. That didn't require them to be constantly doing that. and. It isn't like those. The politicians were raising money for the campaigns. They don't get to walk away with it, they. They're using that for their campaign. So so I think there is motivation among the elected people not to have to keep doing this, but. In the meantime, those who are benefiting from this and who can manipulate the system are gonNA. Resist any efforts to try to change it, so that's a huge problem is there might be motivation? But there's no tangible turn it. There's nothing like where you can say look. We've got a clear path. You don't have to raise money more well there is there ways. Ways to whittle away at this, and you know didn't use to be quite this bad, and then certainly you can provide some additional public funding, or or require require networks to give politicians time on the air, things that allow them to speak to the to the public, which of course what this money is supposed to give them a chance to do. Without having to go to. Other, people who have money to give them the money so that they can get access to the public. I mean I think there are ways to do this I. I wouldn't pretend to be an expert at all and campaign finance reform, but I think it is a field and I think that the reforms of the past have been you know, blocked or undone and we can. We can try to put some of those back in place. What you're doing with, this book is essentially. You have a magnifying glass on some of the worst aspects of human behavior. Is it depressing. kind of it's. It's kind of depressing. I've also had people tell me the book is infuriating. Which you know I really didn't intend that I. I kind of thought well. Let me tell you when I imagine. This book I imagined. That was going to go through climate denial. We're GONNA snap out of it because it was so obviously suicidal, and then we were gonNA look around and go. How did that happen? And how do we make sure that never happens again and I would be able to say look. Here's some factors that have contributed to this throughout history, and and here's you know. Maybe this will lead to some reforms, and obviously didn't work out that way. This book has come out when we have a climate denier running the country. Climate tonight. He has called it a hoax several times now I think maybe he's been talked out of using that term lately, but he still pushing back the regulations and really trying to. Change a hoax I, he's said that several times and I know at least in one one tweet, maybe more eight Chinese hoax that China was trying to to perpetrate on us, so so in any event you know. I I wrote an infuriating book I didn't mean to. I meant to write a kind of. Let's all step back and look at this book. But it just turns out. You cannot write about infuriating topics without writing kind of infuriating book I do try to keep some perspective here and and you know look at. Look at the good parts of this history, which is to say in each case you have members of the public you have scientists who have journalists you have movement stepping up and confronting that denial, and eventually, in most cases overcoming it and you know we do have other segments of our society that are designed to try to. Not just pursue profit, but to seek truth that scientists and journalists and that doesn't mean they're not also trying to sue profit sometimes or at least get paid for for their work, but. We do have systems in place that have successfully. This and so it's not like we're starting from scratch. We are just in a very big hole right now. An particularly about climate change, and particularly with so much corporate power over Congress and and frankly the states as well what? What subjects were have? Were you see there's actually progress been made? Well you know people have been fighting climate change on the state level, and we have done some things also federally for a long time over the years. I mean many many states have put in place. Climate targets to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. Many have put in place when you will energy standards which have been enormously successful in building up. The wind industry, the solar industry, and those technologies as they deploy improve have gotten so much cheaper. I mean. It's really much much easier now to imagine getting rid of fossil fuels than it was. You know forty years ago when? The industry. I confronted this or win society. I, really started looking at this. And the federal level. They've made major improvements in They've required efficiency standards which have been really helpful. For like major appliances, we had auto efficiency standards. Now Obama put some strong winds in place. Trump has ruled those back again. So that's going to limit the the progress exactly when it needs to be accelerated, so that's that's maybe not one of the good good pieces of news. You were asking about We have. Well I mean I think that's going to be largely focus, and and and even though we have trump is said we're not going to be part of the Paris agreement anymore, which by the way every other country in the world is a part of there's a handful that hadn't ratified it, but everybody else is part of it even though he said that you have many states, and in many cities stepping forward and saying well, we are still part of it, and we are going to be working to reduce our mission, so you know that's all very good news. The technology that we do have a deep bench of policy experience. We know a lot of good things that we can do. That will work and. We have the rising concern that youth movement. You know all around the world really that who are who are really stepping up and say. Enough! We have got to deal with this and we've got to deal with it now, and because you grownups of wasted thirty years. We've got to deal with it particularly aggressively. No you cover how many different subjects in this book I cover eight different campaigns of denial. It seems like for you. In particular climate change is the most disturbing, or that's well. That's the one that threatened the future of human civilization. And the one that I got started on. Yeah, but but yeah cover cover seven other industries including slavery radium radium radium was. Industrial Strength. Denial take on radium radium radium is a crazy crazy story. radium is insanely radioactive element. That was discovered. You know around. Just, a right right one, thousand, nine, hundred by the curies and France. And it was a mystery I mean it was way more radioactive than uranium and people didn't even know what radioactivity really meant, but there was a sort of aura of wizardry around it, and and when they discovered it, they didn't. Well the first thing they discovered, and they discovered this the hard way was that it burned your flesh. It didn't hit right away, but you carry some around and then in a few days you would have burn there. Because it was sending off all of this energy, so they thought okay. We have this flesh killing cell killing element. What can we do with it? And they thought well. Let's try to kill. Cancer Tumors, which was actually a very good idea and they experimented with that. That was the the medical use for radium. We're going to put this radium next to a tumor. Then we'll take it away and it'll shrink, and we can use the same radium for the next tumor, and so it was a very efficient what form radioman! They would put it that well, if somehow would refine it and distill it into tiny tiny little amounts, and then they would put it in a needle, or put it in a vial or something, and just position it. Near a tumor it started out as or and they had to refine it refined it down down down down down. and so the the government's at the time in Europe, and and also in the US thought great. Here's this weird crazy valuable stuff. Maybe we should control this or so we make sure it gets used to actually cure cancer and and in Europe. That's pretty much what they did in the US. We try to do that, but. The industry there was a brand new industry that was just forming. And they step forward. The the first company was called Standard Chemical. They stepped forward, and said no, no, no, no, no I, if if the government starts taking over radium, because it's radioactive, radium or well, everything's a little radioactive. Where will this stop was classic? Sort of slippery slope argument. Somehow it it succeeded, and so what happened was this mysterious and potent element became a another commercial project commercial product to be exploited by this this company standard chemical. There were some others that later popped up. Standard Chemical was founded by this guy named Joe. Flannery and he was, he had background as. His family were morticians. Then he went into industry, and then he was kind of a snake oil salesman, and he kinda failed, but he wanted with radium. He told Congress to cure cancer. You've had a good motive. But he also wanted to big market. Right Cancer. You know just when disease and if you use the radium. That's not a market, so he was determined to expand that market. He actually opened what what was called the first free radium clinic in the world in nineteen thirteen. Pittsburgh? And he invited patients in higher doctors, and thousands of them were injected with radium, or they drank radium, so if you can somehow prove that consuming radium is healthy, then you have a market right in many of these people did have cancer, but it turns out that that injecting them with radium would actually kill them. Than the cancer would have and. One of the clinic doctors was was questioned before Congress and he explained well. The way he looked at it. He was just shoving them over a little more quickly. So? He wasn't worried about the fact that he was killing the cancer patients. And they weren't just treating cancer patients. They were treating anybody. They were treating arthritis. They were treating. Joint pain the and so they were. Giving this very toxic substance to people with low level, chronic problems, and then he would he he actually formed his own Medical Journal and he would have his doctors right up the results of this and put it in there and send it out to all the doctors. so yeah I mean it was really pretty crazy, but he did succeed in launching this health fad where suddenly there were lots of products that contain radium now some of them they did, but didn't, but but many of them really did and you could buy your radium. Get your rate in all kinds of different ways. If you wanted to radio after active drink, you could drink it. You could still get injected. You could take pills. You could. If you want to soak in radium, you could buy bath salts appointments. There was radio. There was radium toothpaste. Oh yeah, and and and and one of the more interesting ones. There were a radioactive rectal suppositories. And these were marketed basically for male sexual dysfunction. That's not what they called it. They. They said this was four as I recall week, dister discouraged men who wanted to perform the duties of a real man. So yeah, and that was. You know I think what happens if you're if you're going Selah quack product, you try to identify problems that people are kind of embarrassed about so they're less likely to go to their doctor by it out of the back of a magazine, and then if it doesn't work, they're not gonNA complain about it. They're not going to sue you. so and but these were not just marketed. Marketed for that, they were marketed for colds. They were marketed for obesity for constipation for insanity. That was a big one trying to cure insanity, so yeah, it becomes a health fad How long does go on for well? It pretty much fizzled out in the thirty s largely, because one particularly prominent and wealthy individual could afford to poison himself very thoroughly by drinking these radium drinks every day and ultimately his. His facial bones started to dissolve. Aloud, he had like holes between the sinuses and his mouth. This is actually what happened as well to a group of workers who were painting radium paint onto watch dials, which is actually a more. Well known part of this history. Lot of young women were hired to paint radium onto watch dials, not just watched AL's. They put them. All kinds of. These images Oh. You could see it up called radium jaw. John. This. Look at that. One Guy was lower jaws is gone on the second row. So this. Oh my God. Yes old radium! This went on for twenty years. Well yes, I mean the the industry got going in the mid nineteen teens. This this one man I was just talking about died in early thirties got lots of press and that help the health fad part of a go away. The the worker exposure of the young women usually who were. Disfigured and died from from this that part of the industry of of radioactive paint lasted a bit longer into the thirty s they the when they began, they taught these women young women. They might have been fifteen when they got hired. They taught them to make a nice sharp point on their paintbrush with lips and tongue. And because there was this health fat around freedom, they told them that this would would put a glow in their cheeks, and you've seen these pictures that they really. Had some some change in their cheeks, but it wasn't a glow and it. They told them it was good for them. and so a lot of them, not all of them I. Mean so you know not. Everybody died, which made it easier for the industry to actually blame them and later industry would say that these people with these horrendous disfiguring diseases. That they were suffering from pre existing condition that this was somehow not the fault of radium that they had hired. Cripples and other people who who weren't strong, because this was easy work. And when they got sick, everybody blamed them, and they were being punished for their generosity of hiring this folks in the first place, and by the way these women had radioactive breath at this point. I mean so. It's not like there was any doubt that they had rating lodged in there. What is radioactive breath? Exhaling Radon. So, this was measurable. Oh Cleveland, even by the standards of the time. Oh! My God now now one thing about the radium industries denials like that blaming the victim are appalling, but one of the things that we did see is that the leaders of that industry including the guy who invented that radioactive paint and including Joseph Flannery? died and and certainly the the direct. The inventor of the paint died because of radium exposure. His teeth had fallen out. According to Time magazine, his fingers had been removed, and nobody else covered that particularly gruesome detail, but then he died of anemia. These are all radium induced ailments, Joseph Flannery, the guy who launched standard chemical well, he had this great idea that he had all this radioactive waste right, so he hired a botanist to find out if it could be a fertilizer, and then they published a report that you should yeah spread radioactive waste on your food crops because it's great. he actually had him spread waste on his own garden and then six years later, flannery died, and the industry didn't mention this, but his birth certificate which I managed to dig up mention that he had a contributing factor in his death of anemia. is something that radium exposure causes death certificate, which I'm sorry, yes. Right his deaths are thank you so yeah. He had a anemia and if he believed his own clinic, own his own sales pitch, he probably drank more radium to treat his rene me. So? He did die so so in these two characters. At least we have people believing what they said enough to actually kill themselves as well as other people, so it seems again this is there's human characteristic that this tendency. We start making money. Start justifying. You want to keep that money coming in, so you start justifying your actions manipulating the facts and just continuing to push out whatever it is that you're doing. That's allowing you to earn this profit. Yeah, well, and you know one of the reasons I talk about Joe Flannery is that he's he's A. I think a really good example of a certain kind of person that we celebrate. because they invent things, and they make things happen, and they build businesses the founders of industry. and We we know from psychological studies that. The well, let me let me back up. There's a model. When you think about how the mind works that that governs. got a going system in a stopping system and approach system and an inhibition system. One of the things that activates the approach system is power, and if you have an approach, an active approach system, you're focused on your goal. You're focused on reward. Meanwhile the powerless are focused the ambition part of the mind is more triggered by powerlessness, and you're more focused on risk. So if you're focused on reward, you're not focused so much on your focus so much on consequence for other people and so of course that gets you hailed as a visionary and Joseph Flannery was hailed as a visionary and he did you know he was bowled? He was inventive worked hard. He built a business. He just didn't ask you know. Should we actually feed this? Cell killing radioactive substance that fuses into people's bones permanently to people without any evidence of safety, or should we just go for it and and see how it works and so you know that? that. I think is is troubling in the sense that you've got industry leaders who fit a certain. Psychological profile who rise to the top of their industries, precisely because they are reward focused, but if they are not balanced out by other people whose job it is to say, what about the risks, what about the consequences? What could go wrong here? You have a recipe for disaster. And also ignorance at the time we'd been no one really understood that kind of stuff. In terms of what the general public probably didn't really know what radiation! The general public know at all, and in fact radioactivity. Incredible Aura around it I mean it was energy with stimulation. That's one of the reasons it got used for sexual dysfunction and and. Treatments Yeah. We don't know and that's the problem with the case of a lot yet me to with the case of a whole lot of these folks, consumers of these products. We really don't know much about what happened. We know more about the radium girls who were the ones who use this paint. So disturbing. It's yeah, it's very disturbed. You just whenever I hear stories about that. From the early nineteen hundreds I always wonder. How much is something like that happening right now that they're going to look back on, and you know the year twenty, three, hundred zero. What would they say twenty twenty? It may well be social media. You know we've unlocked some really powerful potent force in it's addictive and people love it. It's so exciting it's racing forward and it's so new that nobody fully understands the risks yet. But I think that might be what what when people look back. They'll. They will think. How did these people let this happen? How did they let it rip them to pieces like that? How did it? How did they let it destroy all of their trust in each other in government and their experts and they're academia so that nobody really could tell, or at least big chunk of your population could not tell what was true, and what was just somebody pandering to their tribal biases. While also. What's it doing your children I mean I grew up without it. You grew up without it. What is happening to eleven year? Olds right now that have facebook accounts, twitter accounts and. INSTAGRAM accounts and they're going back and forth with people all day long being mean to each other I know personally people that get involved in like these online beefs with people and they're sick. They get sick. They get ill like they can't leave their house. They can't get out of bed they're. They're severely disturbed for days on end. They have to get on medication. It's really common. And you know look. I don't read that stuff and I'm a fifty two year old man with a fairly healthy brain, an understanding of my own shortcomings I stay the hell away from but I know a lot of people who are addicted and they. You know you'll see them some days, and they're sweating. Their faces Pale me like what's going on Almond volved in this twitter thing. Somebody got mad at me about this. And I went back and forth about that and next thing you know my my boss found out about it and it's. Great Yeah, it's there's a definite. Tuition and if you think about the anonymous comments. You know one of the things that I want the surprised me. You Know How when you've got a European. Company might have s a over F F, the end of its name instead of ink. That's common that stands like infringe first day and a name for anonymous society. Anonymity was such a central feature of the corporation that they actually appended to the name so. you don't know who's owning these things and so that's another reason that the people who do own it. Don't feel responsible and anonymity we know from. Research and from you know the Internet brings out kind of. Not just Iraq I'm yes, and and just a can of casual brutality, and and certainly not social responsibility so Yeah, I mean I think that. It's going to be a huge issue and I. Think People Certainly Smarter Than me who understand the industry better are going to have to pick it apart and try to think about how. We, really do directly address these problems. We obviously didn't evolve with social media in mind and. Our brains. You know being highly social creatures. Huge portions of our brains are about. Looking around at our place within our tribe, looking at other tribes, and and just dealing with all of the status issues in the comparison, issues and social media of course, expands that dramatically, and and it's just I think you're right, really hard for people to deal with what we're seeing it so clearly right now because it's being exacerbated by social distancing. The fact that we're not around each other, and there's less communication person to person particularly with strangers or particular people you have issues with people are getting together and communicating face to face. I hadn't thought of that. And then children how many children are doing like? My kids are all doing zoom school, which is horrible minutes so ineffective there. Barely paying attention defined find strategies to to mute the teacher and to Shudder camera off and pretend they're out there laptop broken. It's kind of hilarious but. These kids are engaging even more in social media and less in hang out with each other. It's really like a perfect recipe for distorted in confused aside and scary, it is and again it's a new thing so the regulations that are in place. They're just. There's really nothing to prevent people from using it to manipulate things right. It's not illegal, and it will take a long time before we get those in place. And also BEF- might be too late. You know before recognize the repercussions. FACEBOOK's talked about making their own money. They're talking about making their own bitcoin type crypto currency I mean that takes place mean they're already manipulating things in some really weird ways. If they start having their own money on top of that, and then they can manipulate their own individual economy. Like what does that look like? No one even considered known considered crypto currency twenty years ago, no one considered the impact of social media ten years ago. What are we going to be looking at thirty years from now? Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean you know our failure of imagination goes both ways we we don't tend to imagine the problems that are going to result from the technologies and the new industries. We also. Hardly ever imagine how we will solve those problems we hardly ever if you look at any kind of speculative fiction movies or or comic books. I mean you. You don't see progress. You don't see people getting together figuring out a problem hammering out of solution putting it in place that sort I mean, because, of course it's boring. Cinematic, yeah, just. It's all deeply disturbed and terminator. It's kind of interesting. If you compare that to much older science fiction that that has a much more positive perspective off, not always, but at least there was often something that was positive, although I have to say, a lot of that is is stuff that was actually put together by corporations who are showing you the home of the future, and all their marvelous appliances, and those fools were hopeful they were they were up and we want to encourage hope. We just wanted to be realistic and focused and driven home most certainly. The ozone layer's interesting subject. You cover because that doesn't get discussed anymore, but I've been Australia, and you go outside and burst into flames There's everywhere you go Australia. There's these billboards for skin cancer. It's really it was re released. It was last year which was over ten years ago, but it's really strange. There's these billboards everywhere that show tumors and show you know people that have skin cancer and talk to you about the damages, the dangers of Sun. William giant hole. Like Australia, yeah, they're. They're close enough to the ozone hole or. Partially under. The. hairspray! Exactly. Yeah. I mean it's. It is amazing how that story does seem to have been forgotten threat and the fact. Of of the success I mean we caused this huge problem We discovered this huge problem which we need I mean that was kind of serendipitous. And yes, the industry denied it and just kind of came in two chapters I. It was all industry saying. This is an attack on free enterprise. Probably the KGB is behind it. I mean what else. Is. There was one Aerosol company president who suspected it was the KGB but but many industry leaders were talking about this being as an anti-capitalist crusade, and partly because this was the seventies, so they already faced. All, of these demanding environmentalists, saying take the lead out of the gasoline, and do all kinds of other things, and so they were starting to feel like attacked on all sides and and eventually you know so. There was some denial. They're mostly political. Eventually, that got handled well, I shouldn't say eventually. It got handled relatively quickly, because actually not only ninety seventy six when they said okay. We're getting this stuff out of the hairspray out of the. We don't need this inspiration hands. That was in the spring dot. Chlorofluorocarbons CFC's which were invented. Ironically by the same guy who invented leaded gasoline at GM, boy invented both of these documents name. His name is Thomas Midgely Yeah, and he left quite a mark. On the world, but but here's the thing I mean I blame him for putting leading gasoline that was terrible, but inventing CFC's was actually done because it was replacing a poisonous gases that were been in refrigerators. And they would sometimes leak and kill people, so people were just transitioning now from iceboxes, two fridges, and and so they needed a non toxic gas to put in there, so he came up with this, and it was nontoxic, and so you know at the time. Nobody really even knew much about the ozone layer, and they certainly didn't know. See if we're GONNA wreck it so much much less obvious risk and then it wasn't in until the seventies then scientists who who were just sort of curious. Put this altogether and realized. Oh, we are wrecking the Ozone Layer and by seventy six I think it was seventy six. the Ford Administration, said okay. We're getting it out of the CAN. You got a couple of years and this industry aerosol industry who had been screaming and yelling about? anti-capitalists! Said Okay I mean it wasn't was not that big a deal. It was easy for them to do and then then I. Guess we were in the Carter Administration. They were going to start looking at the harder problem of. How do you replace CFC's in refrigerators and air conditioners, and they were putting up a plan for that, but then Reagan got elected, and then in the concerns of the sixties and seventies about. How we protect the environment. Were replaced by concerns about how do we? Avoid environmental regulations because they they were. They felt it was hurting business, and so they basically dropped the ball on this completely and the corporations like Pont, which was the top CFC maker. They had been working on substitutes, but once the the pressure of regulation went away. They just dropped it. They didn't keep looking for substitutes. Even though they had the the same science telling them that there was a risk here, but they decided. We're not going to have to worry about it. Ben Eventually the ozone holes discovered and scientists are shocked because the models had predicted. A gradual reduction ozone, and suddenly you've got this deep reduction in ozone covers like. This huge space over Antarctica. One of the reasons NASA had not discovered this with their satellites. Was that they? Were expecting so much less that they had apparently programmed computers to read huge readings like this as instrument error. It was actually the British. Who discovered this? They they did it. The old fashioned way going down to Antarctica like measuring things, so anyway announced it the NASA looked back and said whoops, right, huge ozone hole, then everything kind of accelerated, and and by eighty seven we had the Montreal Protocol and even though Reagan had run on this anti-regulatory platform. He signed the Montreal Protocol. Protocol Senate ratified it I. Don't think there are any dissenting votes So you know that was a big success story? And by the way by the time things really were winding down. Even Dupont said okay. Yeah, that there's enough science here. We're GONNA stop making our product. And so it's sort of the one example. I can point to where science and evidence overcame denial. But. It's an example where the product wasn't their core product, a little sliver of revenue. That wasn't that lucrative. They could replace it with something that they could sell and they were gonNA clearly regulated anyway so so clearly the you know. The benefits of continued denial had sort of disappeared and. So, you can't count on evidence. Leading to the end of corporate denial more typically, you have a situation like tobacco and fossil fuels where. Even, if it does lead to denial, doesn't. Don't stop selling the product right so. And again, obviously, oil companies can't just stop selling their product, but they can be part of a process for us all to figure out how we're going to replace it as quickly as possible. What efforts were done if any to regenerate ozone? just cut the emissions. Of Anything I, don't know that. Yeah, it's funny I I've not heard anybody talk about that, but we always known that the CFC's take decades to get up to the atmosphere so stopping emissions. Meant that the old stuff was still going up there, and it was going to take decades to fix it. We do seem to have signs of healing now of the ozone layer, so it does seem like we have solved. Well. Solve this we have. We have stopped harm and it's going to get better through natural circumstances, but you know. I was talking about how. People don't let us celebrate that as humanity at its best, you know because we really did something very hard in in the sense of figuring out the science, getting the nations of the world together and getting rid of a product that had been really useful and valuable to us, but what happened immediately after that was this political backlash even when you had the chemical industry saying Yep, we're destroying the ozone layer. We're going to stop doing that. You had these right wing groups. Fred Singer actually was one of the witnesses was also in merchants of doubt. who goes and he gets to testify before Congress, he's a scientist and he's saying that the mainstream science on which you have just based all of these decisions. You're being bamboozled, and they have an anti-capitalist agenda, and you had then I think it. Was Tom delay saying he doesn't listen to the ozone trends panel. All of those you know hundreds of scientists who've hammered out the data on these issues. He listens to Fritz Singer and that was sort of the beginning well, not the beginning because you could take back to the eighties, but that was the next step. In the rise of these science, deniers who sort of had this all purpose agenda looked at lots of different industries and the funny thing was here. You know you the, industry? Saying. No we we're, we're fine with this accelerating the phase hour. We're going to go ahead and do it so. The way I think about it. Is that industry for a long time? fueled doubt and to some extent, they also then funded groups with an ideological agenda who continue to push that doubt. And some of those industries stopped denying the science, maybe because they were going to get sued, or maybe because it was just time. But the groups that they have funded. Now outflanked them on the issue and for example Exxon. Used to fund Exxon Mobil used to fund this little. Crazy, little group called the heartland institute. and. They stopped doing that. Quite long time ago, this institute kept just getting more and more extreme on this issue, and recently they had a dispute between Exxon Mobil Hartland Institute. Leader called Exxon Mobil part of the anti energy global warming movement. That's hilarious. Yeah, so you know there things are. Weird. Right out of super weird called Super Exxon part of an anti energy global warming movement. Now it's possible that this was all kind of stage to make Exxon. Look good, but I think they have just created a monster, and that monster is going to keep going around out there and it keeps getting a lot of money. The problem is it, doesn't we don't necessarily know who's funding these groups. Groups anymore for longtime Exxon funded a lot of climate denier groups. They got a lot of public pushback and pressure. They stopped funding the most extreme ones, not all of them. Then the coke brothers started funding. Their Foundation started funding a lot of these groups. They got a lot of attention. Then we saw a lot of the funding of these groups going underground into these dark money organizations like. That promise anonymity so that if you want to fund a politically sensitive issue, nobody knows you've done it so these. The more extreme groups get a lot of money from. These dark money organizations, and therefore there's even deeper anonymity, and and no accountability that some four D. of Exxon was doing the. They're sitting there. Going look I know what we. Got Someone to call us a bunch of hippies. I I suspect that it wasn't that. I think they really have just created a monster here really would be brilliant if it was true. Well I think that some of this is true that you I mean. Here's the thing if you're Exxon and you don't actually want to do anything. You Spin off the denial into other groups that will actually stop things. I mean this little group heartland I mean the the this extreme edge of these advocacy groups they are. Deeply involved in the trump administration I mean they. It's not like they're just out there. Howling, the Wilderness have had enormous influence so if you can back off like like Exxon especially Exxon especially if you're being sued and you've got angry shareholders, and you've got the SEC you have a lot of reasons. An have angry European countries that are taking this more seriously in your. Your multinational you have a lot of reason to kind of keep your mouth shut, and maybe say the right things, but you can indeed still benefit from the denial. You have spun off into the world that is in fact, say rolling back the fuel efficiency standards. I don't know what Exxon. Mobil has said about that, but clearly the more inefficient cars. The more oil gets burned. Are Their tactics and is. Is there like a school of thought that goes along with this? These strategies like is this taught in universities is their places where they learn this stuff because you would think that it's very valuable, and it's often very sophisticated to actually manipulate tonight. Is this something that gets taught once they get into this corporation as internal thing or is it? Is it just a natural factor in the way? Human beings react to profitability and. Responsibility I think it certainly starts there with with it being a natural reaction, but I think then what happens. Industries learned from the previous industry. tobacco taught everybody how to do this. certainly everybody in the modern era, and then, of course you do have this. This industry of groups that serve multiple industries if you can be a group that sets up front groups. And I quote one here. Man named Rick Berman. WHO has a company that sets up front groups for industries that are facing regulation, and he promises them complete anonymity, and the irony here is that he was, he was talking to a group of oil and gas executives, and saying hey, we can give you complete anonymity in some saying things like well. You know you're telling us. We should really be attacking people's character and reducing the credibility, and I'm not so sure I like that, and he says hey, you can either howdy phrase it. lose prettier. Win Ugly and said I will give you complete anonymity. People have no idea paying me and then somebody in the audience anonymously leaked the whole tape to the New York Times, and so you can see the all of the text. And and he you know he was talking about the various strategies and one of the things that he explicitly said although it was pretty obvious, already from the tobacco history was that. You do not need to convince people. You are right when it comes to science denial, all you need to do is raise doubt because in order to do something we need to reach a certain level of. Certainty. We need momentum. And, it is actually really easy to two minute to diminish that by raising doubt that certainly something. The fossil fuel industry has done with respect to climate and and what he said was. Doubt Paralyzes People. They think I don't know who's right. They think I'll just wait and then basically you have sort of tie in their minds, but you win every tie because you have preserved the status quo so that kind of strategy. That's you know it's pretty sophisticated in the sense that. It was an insight that that really helps lots of industries with science denial, but it was also a pretty obvious lesson from one of the tobacco industry, but but really nobody's put it to use the way. The fossil fuel industry has done around climate change, so there isn't a sense of playbook. There's playbook and there's an industry that will help you. Run those plays and also keep you hidden while you're running those plays, so you don't have to be visible to your. Shareholders to your. Consumers to politicians. If this was an operating system, we would abandon it and bring new right like this was. Windows, ninety, five or something we might be bitter able to predict how it will crash us. Yes, yeah, but it seems like the operating system of whether it's economics or politics never really gets updated. Just sort of get patched. Unfortunately, this is an operating system that takes on a life of its own, and has its own desire to perpetuate itself. Maybe this is where the you know the future of all operating system. I mean you know if you think about sort of again back to the comic books back to the novel's back to Frankenstein, our creations tend to want live, and they tend to want to turn on us and corporations are are creation. Yes, yeah. How did you choose which wants to? And were there any subjects that you left out? They didn't. Yeah, well, yeah. I was I was pretty. Conscious about it eventually, I mean I stumbled around a long time and looked at a lot of industries, but I wanted. First of all in industries where there was a lot of evidence, so it was clear that this isn't just reasonable doubt. This isn't just people trying to figure it out there. There was something going on here that I could call denial. I also ended up with industries that had an enormous impact because there were just so many of them. In fact, all of the chapters deal with hurting millions of people or threatening catastrophic global harm like ozone, depletion or climate change with in fact, the exception of radium which I think we can probably say only hurt thousands of people. so the first two factors, and and because I was looking at this as a social phenomenon I didn't want cases where a company was keeping a secret and got discovered I wanted cases where there was a sustained campaign of denial over time. Which of course gave me lots of source material to look at. but also because that. Changes the way people think about things, not just the primary question of like does do cigarettes cause cancer, but larger questions of can I trust my government. Can I trust science? Who should decide these things? How certain do I have to be so? It was that kind of. Social influence that I was really interested. In and social norms and social change so I looked at those now as far as industries. I didn't look at I. I didn't write about lead paint. Because I already had that had gas but lead paint has its own long history, and and you know it's just so tragic. You'd look at these old ads and they're talking about you know. Paint your baby's nursery with this weapon, and the thing is this leads into contaminant of lead paint lettuce us like the main ingredient I mean it was basically spreading a known poison. Surfaces knowing that it would eventually crumble. Knowing that accumulate slowly and poisons, people, and here's something I. Read I'm not one hundred percent. Sure this is true, but it's heartbreaking. That lettuce sweet. So you? Hear about children. And you think why would they eat? Let ships I guess. Because it's Kinda sweet. I did benefit of putting in. Things made good paint. I mean it. You know it was strong, and now of course we, we think of it as these old old buildings, and so we think of it is crumbling, but it. It did a pretty good job as a paint. If, you didn't count the human impact. did you get any pushback, or did you ever get contacted by any of these different industries that you're covering and we concerned at all about that while you're writing these things, you kind of exposing kind of exposing, but I actually you know it's funny I thought about. Should I beat trying to interview people? For All of these and I really didn't I tried. I called F Corporation, which still exists the company that made leaded paint. I, mean not let me let a gas. They ended up moving onto other products they while they sold overseas for a long time, but then they also made a lot of other things, so they still exist, even though their product was banned their only product at the time that they were started was banned in this country, and I called them up, and said so I'm reading this book about corporate denial, and just wondering. You know if you'd like shocked me about later games. and. Just, your silence on the other side of Thorn, and then they were transfer me to somebody else. I would try it again and get silence and. You know then we get disconnected and it became pretty clear to me the beginning that. I! Really it wasn't going to be all that helpful for me to say to ask people, so tell me about what you're in denial of because that that I didn't think that was going to work very well, and and also because my focus was the public debate in. How did it affect society? That's what I ended up focusing on the most. So you know I I wasn't worried about the industry's as I was reading this. I'm a little worried now, but I mean really I'm just quoting them so this point. I don't feel like I'm. Particular risk well just. I mean not even risk but that. W- has there been a reaction by these these interests because their whole thing is about denial right so I would imagine you book. Put out a book about Industrial Strength Denial. You'd get some denial about about. Denying. That may be, but the you know I've picked such big industries in these campaigns are so old that there's nothing particularly newsworthy about saying that you know tobacco companies use. That smoking caused cancer or that. The fossil fuel industry raised all kinds of doubts and denied climate change. was there any controversy about the subject matter in the the topics? Were there any ones that you considered not adding Oh sure? I mean I I was very nervous about slavery, because it is just such an emotionally searing topic and. Because I. Didn't you know I? These are all? Examples of denial. They're all very destructive, but I. I don't want to draw a direct moral equivalency between selling human beings were the the harm so immediate and obvious and selling these other products. I mean it is a different sort of situation. So that was an issue for me, but the denials were so. Fascinating and appalling and revealing that I ended up deciding to include it I was nervous about doing the financial chapter just because that took me out of my comfort zone, and and forced me to learn about collateralized debt obligations and things like that but again that turned out to be such a fascinating topic that I I'm very glad I ended up researching and writing about it. Well listen I'm glad you wrote this book and like I said. This is a subject that's always been bizarrely fascinating and compelling to me since merchants of doubt. And I just think it's just it is such a weird aspect of human beings, just the power of corporation, the deniability. What what what they're able to do, and how they're able to continue doing it. It's very strange so I'm very happy that you wrote this book. Thank you and it was great. Talk to you. It's great talking to you. do you have social media or anything that you'd like? Oh? Yeah Pruitt a lead. I am I have a website. BARBARA FREEZE DOT COM so. I know my kids are GonNa. That's good good. Don't you don't need to go to my website you can. You can just Google the title, and if you're interested in the book you'll, you'll find it. Thank you, Barbara! Appreciate you, thank you. Thank you friends and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you, Carol, bring home your own Carol, and discover the power of training with the world's only a power exercise bike. Carol is offering listeners a limited time. Offer go to Carol. Fit A are that C.. A. R. O., L. Fit A. I dot, com, and enter the code, Rogan, three hundred checkout and get three hundred dollars off plus free shipping and a free one year subscription. Thank you also to see be MD and they're fantastic CBD oil products. GO TO CBD MD. DOT COM, and use the Promo Code Rogan checkout, and you will save twenty five percent off your next purchase of their amazing CBD products. I love their stuff from their CBD fruits menthol to their tinctures. The CD recover. 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