1 Episode results for "Regulatory Resource Center"
649 Detect and Avoid
"This is the airplane geeks. Podcast our aim is to educate and inform you explore and expand your passion for aviation and entertain you little along the way this episode. We talk with the ceo of a company on the forefront of technology to bring detect and avoid capability to unmanned aviation. This is essential for integrating beyond visual line of sight. Unpiloted aircraft into the national airspace system. Welcome to the airplane geeks podcast. This is episode six hundred forty nine of the show where we talk aviation. I'm max flight. This episode is being published during sudden fund. And we'll be deviating from our normal format. What we have is an interview. David vanderhoek i recorded for the uav digest. Now i know there is some audience. Overlap between that podcast and this one but for all you who general here. Not interested in drones. Stick with me for just a minute. Our guest is john damage. The ceo of iris they've developed onboard detect and avoid technology for beyond visual line of sight. Drone flights if piloted in aircraft or going to share the same airspace. This is critical technology that both worlds have a stake in one thing that you will appreciate is that john is a pilot himself and he brings the understanding that you all have into the unmanned space. Just listen to his bio. John has over thirty years of aviation technology. Experience and executive leadership he led new. Business ventures at boeing next. He was chief growth officer at boeing subsidiary. In situ and he was a boeing executive liaison board member to sky. Grid a joint venture between boeing and spark cognition. John was the ceo of two d. Three sensing a leading provider of computer vision based image processing software for aerial surveillance. He's also an faa certified commercial pilot multi engine and instrument ratings and. He's a cfi pretty. Good hey if you're a pilot or naveh geek that's the kind of guy you want in the drone business. Our man on the inside so to speak. Irish autonation is primarily a computer vision and machine learning software company. That's focused on helping. Unpiloted systems detect other airplanes. The company's cassia product is a platform agnostic. Three hundred sixty degree radio computer vision tech and avoid system for unmanned aerial systems. So i invite you to listen to this conversation. I think you'll find it interesting in if you are a subscriber to the uav digest. This is the same interview as an episode. Three hundred and seventy no need to continue unless you'd like to hear it again which would flatter david me. Okay our guest is john damage. He is the ceo of iris automation. They produce the cassia which is platform agnostic. Three hundred and sixty degree radio computer vision detect and avoid system for you a. s. and they also have something they call the regulatory resource center. Which is an online tool that manages. The bbc loss waiver application process. How john's got a really nice long. Fantastic aviation technology career. He led new. Business ventures at boeing next. He was chief growth officer. At boeing's subsidiary in situ and he was a boeing executive liaison and board observer to sky grid which was a joint venture between boeing and spark ignition. John was also the ceo of two d three sensing they're a leading provider of computer vision based image processing software for aerial surveillance in on top of all that he's also an faa certified commercial pilot. He has multi-engine an instrument ratings and he's a cf. I the certified flight instructor. John welcome to the uav digest. Thank you very much. Max and i'm calling in from southern california to stay on team there. We go which probably makes both of your little bit jealous. This time year. I grew up in new jersey so i definitely remember what late february early march felt like This tease of spring but winter holding on for dear life. Well we were at seventy three degrees today. So i actually had the hanger open at the museum which was kind of a nice thing was on the teas. Get the punch is coming all right. Well john why don't we start off talking a little bit about the products and services that irish automation offers Detected avoid is certainly a big part of what you do. Yeah i would say. Detection is primarily what we do we at our core our computer vision and machine learning software company and what the founders of our business realized is that the drone industry was not going to be able to grow exponentially like all the hype held for so many years until drones were allowed to fly more like regular airplanes and The thing that really precludes that from happening today is satisfying the existing regulations as they relate to seeing and avoiding other traffic. And you know what the audience probably knows. Maybe some don't is. There is a specific rule in the current regulations In under part ninety one and that the rule is one thirteen. and be. that says it's the pilot's responsibility Weather conditions permitting to see and avoid all other aircraft. Well the funny thing happens when you take the pilot out of the cockpit in that you've now taken those eyeballs in those sensors out of the aircraft that gives you that what we refer to as the last line of defense against an airborne collision so rightly so Regulators have been very careful not to authorize too many flights of drones beyond visual line of sight until we can solve this problem so that is squarely where irises focused forgive the pun in. That is helping. These unpiloted systems detect other airplanes. So that the autopilots can actually then avoid those aircraft much the same way and frankly what will probably be better than the human pilot can And that's why we're so optimistic and really looking forward to to the value we can provide to the community because while we focus on drones to start The long run is this is a system that can help aviator and i for one as someone who spends a lot of time in low altitudes and small airplanes teaching people to fly I know how bad i am at seeing in avoiding other traffic so if i could get a hold of a system that helped me be better. I would jump at it so yeah. That's that's what we do. What is the sensor suite. And why does it allow at least ultimately Detection that superior to what a human being can deliver in. How close are we to that now. So it's funny because on the surface. The system appears deceptively simple because all it is An array of cameras one six cameras depending on the configuration of europe planet where we have to put cameras to allow you to see the right section array of airspace and a central computer unit which is really no bigger than To iphone stacked on top of one another. So it's a really small innocuous looking piece of hardware. The magic is in software and specifically the fact that It's pretty easy for us as humans to understand how a computer vision system might be able to detect something that's in the field of view because it's moving differently the pixels the way they move. Okay got it. Like i can see how it computer could rapidly determine something different in the scene. That's true. It relatively straightforward and people have been doing this for decades with cameras. What's really hard to do with cameras however is understand how far away something is from that camera because the camera by definition is a two dimensional sensor. You got experts. Why pixels so. How do you get that distance to target. And this is where the machine learning comes in and frankly. This is only been computational possible Within the last five years or so computers get small enough to be on board and also suck a small enough amount of power so that you don't use all of your power to run the computer and can't fly right you kind of need to still fly so The advent of gpu's now puts enough power processing power at a low enough electrical power. Need to be able to do this kind of math on board the airplane and the math is where our software is. So what we do. Is we use machine. Learning to defy the targets that the computer vision system detects once. We can classify those targets. Think small helicopter large helicopter single engine small plane twitch small plane. We now have a an approximation of their size and given their size in the real world and knowledge of our cameras. Geometry we can now directly compute. How far away. That thing is from the camera that's clever. Therein lies the magic. And when you combine those two things together and you run them online or on on boarded ten frames per second note. Now have a real time detection system. that's capable of helping you avoid collisions. Different people are working on different. Detect and avoid systems. Is there any kind of a requirement for consistency across the industry. Does it matter if people are using different systems as long as each one is sufficiently accurate. Yeah there's two parts here So there's a regulatory answer to this And then there's technology answer to this. The regulatory answer is yes. The regulator definitely cares how this is done because for a regulator to be able to grant permission for someone to fly either as a special case or as codified in regulations. They need to understand. Not just where the system works. But we're a system doesn't work and you know the analogy. I'll use is when you take an aircraft through stirs certification. It's not about the faa like breaking out the holy water in the chicken bone cross and saying. Oh this is an airplane worth flying. What they do is they basically by validate the claims. You make as a manufacturer as to the performance of that aircraft in the core case in the edge cases and in the failure cases if the you show them and can prove matches what you said it will do. Then you get certification so The regulator definitely cares how this happens and they want to know what the performance limitations are with the reliability is what happens when something abnormal comes into the field of you to potentially distract the system. What does the system due to to make sure that the probability of detection that we claim is actually what happens so we we actually do a lot of work flying airplanes at other real airplanes To to get these kinds of collision geometry's that we need to build up a large enough corpus of data to show the regulator how the system works and doesn't work in a variety of different conditions and scenario. So that's that's the regulatory answer here. The technical answer to that question max In the future it is my opinion that the very best detect and avoid system has multiple sensing modalities deployed simultaneously so you would have an optical system like ours you would have a radar system you would have an acoustic system because each of these is naturally complementary in different ways and therefore now you're building a layered set of mitigations that ensure that nothing sleep slips between the cracks right so in that case you do need to understand if target that the radar system produced is the same target the optical system produced that matches up with what the acoustic system says so. There's data synchronization correlation. And i hate this word. A lot of people use it fusion. That will need to happen. So that a multimodal system can produce an output that either in on board machine system or an off board human operator can easily interpret and then make a decision to commence an avoidance maneuver as a result. John you're talking about life. And i i agree fusions kind of a strange word but what mitigations do you have for the sensors not being overloaded. You're flying you said southern california. So you're flying in the los angeles airspace. There's a lot of moving targets there. How quickly they're going to be a differentiation. And you may have to. Aircraft similar like say one seventy. Two's flying at different altitudes at different distances. But you know they have pretty much the same profile. How is the computation. Are we getting that far. Or is that four or five more years down the road. So i mean this is one of the Probably the good news parts about the optical approach to the to the problem is a cameras a camera so The saturation challenge. That you present there is really if you had two very similar targets that were kind of co populating a vector of view from the camera. So get one seventy two. That was a mile behind another one. Seventy two and then they were kind of like juxtaposed a little bit. Does that now look like something different or does it hide one or the other. Yeah i mean th those are definitely the challenges of any optical system and you know by my Point of view on that. It's exactly the same challenge that the human faces but computational the system itself doesn't really have a target limit some radar systems do because of the processing that has to go into radar Well there's post processing has to happen in a radar system but also just the number of simultaneous returns. You can process the system so you've probably heard things like an f. Fifteens air to air radar can simultaneously track. What whatever. The number is simultaneous targets. Right and that's like the air superiority advantage but with an optical system it's passive so it's just whenever we see in the camera the takes care of and does what it does. So we don't really have an inherent computational limit when it comes to that it Visual limit so certainly if the skies were darkened with a million cessnas and a square mile. Then yeah we probably break well that brings up another thing. Your optical system. How does it deal with weather. Inclement again with southern california. A good old foggy day in southern california in june gloom. As they say you got it you got it now. You're absolutely right. It optical is optical. If we can't see it we can't track it just like a human. The nice thing about that constraint is that typically that also means there's fewer non-cooperative traffic targets in the airspace. So the threat we're really trying to combat is the non-cooperative target and it's a funny word because when you hear non-cooperative our our brains immediately go to like somebody just doesn't wanna play with us. Well no actually in the united states wonderful civil liberties. We have which is free access to the airspace. There's airspace where you can go jump in an airplane with no radio. no transponder. no eighty s be system. nothing electronic at all and go fly like god bless america. That is amazing. The problem is those very same perfectly. Legal pilots are also sharing airspace. Where there's a lot of industrial inspection that wants to happen there. In rural areas there pipelines. Power lines mapping fields doing methane detection. Whatever it might be That's where people wanted to deploy drums. So now what you have is the perfectly legal but non-cooperative target the proverbial person in their cub on the weekend in the same airspace as the enterprise drone. That's trying to do. You know a thousand kilometer scanning mission or something like that. So this is the case that scares the regulator and rightly so because we don't want to step on the freedoms that we enjoy in the country. So we don't wanna force the gpa community to have to equipped with special equipment just to allow the drone community to go flying. And when you also the fact that the rules are based on a principle of see and be seen which works great when you got to a airplanes or two airliners doesn't work great when you've got a g airplane drone because the drone is just frankly impossible to see from the plane which means the responsibility to see an avoid falls on the shoulders of the drone operator. Not the general aviation operator so so we're all about trying to detect that non-cooperative threat. Fortunately when when the weather's bad save below via far minimums That threat really doesn't exist out there. And if they do then they're flying illegally and at the end of the day you know we're not trying and neither is the regulator trying to hold us accountable to building a system that defends against the illegal operator. There's a certain amount of trust in the system that people will will follow. The rules will on the spectrum from zero. All of this is a an idea. All the way to have a certified detecting devoid Mechanism where do we fall now in in that spectrum. Yeah i would say So if the left side is a great idea if the right side is fully certified. We're right of center First of all there's no unmanned system out there that's fully certified yet right the rules on on the books there's no standards of compliance mops cetera etc that the communities all working towards this right now The faa has done a great thing. Here in america and Provided pass to type certification drones below fifty five pounds which is referred to usually as derby reliability Which unfortunately when you say the acronym fast sounds like dnr which sounds like. Do not resuscitate. But that's not what it means. It's really good path forward because it's performance based and that's great That allows a new manufacturer of an aircraft to come in and prove that they can fly a certain number of hours incident free and that the performance maps to their claims. And that's what the regular is all about. Like i said before. Does your performance match your claims so they now have a path to be able to do that with small drones. Melons finished it yet. But we're getting there right. People are in the process and we expect certify drones app and soon when it comes to our system. This is an interesting question and one that is still as of yet. Unresolved there's two parts We certainly need cameras and computers on board to be able to do what we do on board. That's got to be part of the airplane while if it's part of the airplane than it's gonna fall under the type certification basis for the airplanes at some point because you've got power you've got signal you've got structure. The lenses have to be able to see outside the airplane which means there might be an aerodynamic impact that has to take care of outer mold line at cetera et right so these things belong in the certification baseline of the airplane. So we want to get on board the airplanes as early as possible with partner. Oem's so that as they go to submit their stuff the casio hardware as part of the trump systems. Now that said when a cessna one seventy to get certified it does not have a detect and avoid system. It has a seat for said detecting avoid system which is a human. So it's really the human that provides the da capability to be you know regulatory compliance after the fact so i firmly believe that what we'll see is a combination any hardware that goes on board for optical a radar acoustic. That's that's gonna fall under the aircraft type certification but when it comes to what that system must do in terms of its performance. I think a lot of that is going to be more closely tied to the operations that you intend to go. Do your literally your missions in your use cases in the environments that you're gonna go fly those in because if you're flying pipeline patrol ten feet above the pipeline in the alaskan tundra guess what There's not gonna be a lot of the traffic out there so maybe you really don't need a three hundred sixty degree field of view system that could see an airplane a mile away right because you're also flying ten feet above the pipeline. So if there's anybody else fly ten. Feet above the pipeline. I would argue that breaking rules already but be contrast is if you're flying in you know southern california's a great example. There's class golf airspace in southern california. That's every bit as busy as a class. Charlie airspace and other parts of the country. So if you're trying to fly in that environment will guess what. Yeah you probably do need at three hundred sixty degree field of view system that can track multiple targets within a mile of the aircraft etc etc. So i think it's combination of both Where we are technically to come directly. Answer your question We are on board aircraft. We flown we've actually received two waiver approvals from the faa twenty nineteen under the immigration Pilot program for the use of our system as the bb loss and detected avoid safety system on board. Now they're limited use cases. It's not a copy and paste. That doesn't like all of a sudden give everybody a license to go. Oh go go do that The i p p. and the current faa program their programs that are designed to allow the regulator to learn to go explore different use cases in different environments to understand where the real risks are so that they can inform rulemaking the future so Faa learned about that stuff from the ip that what happens and beyond we are participant beyond so it is It is my expectation within the next couple of years. You'll see more clarity from the regulators around the world not just fa on tv loss and that From our perspective and technically the system works. It does what it does. We're in the process of gathering both real world and simulated data in enough volume. That we can put the data in front of the regulator so they can see the entire performance below the good the bad the ugly and understand. Okay this is the level of credit. Were willing to give this system because this is where we trust. It's gonna work with ninety five percent reliability and above that gives us the kind of detect and avoid system that we want now irish automations also involved in a pathfinder program in canada. Tell us a little bit about what that involves. Yeah indeed So fundamentally we don't have a business unless people go fly. Bb loss so On the surface canadian program. It's not really revenue producer for us. But that's not the point. The point is to raise the bar of other participants in the in the industry so that more people are prepared to go do. Bb las operations so That's specific exercise exercise. It's a it's a partnership with transport. Canada is to help new entrance. Come use the canadian ranges to get and build flight experience in. Bv loss so it's a very controlled environment. There's not a lot of threat aircraft if you want some. You can bring some in in design your encounters so that you can test and learn Wheat supply cassius systems. So they can put him on board and see how to interact with a das system. As part of the development of their concepts of operation the developments of their training materials and their individual staff experience levels because in canada you have to have a certain experience level before you're even allowed to apply for any kind of sfo see special flight operational clearances to go. Do this work so for us. It's a great way to collaborate with the regulator. It's a great way to provide a safe environment for new entrance to come in and really really build up the flight hours that they need to understand what this really means and then go forth so it's all about Industry enabling enablement for us And regulatory relationships so We're really proud of that program. We anticipate that it's going to help a lot of people Kind of up their game in terms of bb loss flight and ultimately we know it'll come around bay davidenko for us because then we're going to have more people in the marketplace who are cassie a customers that come about. Did you call canada or did canada call you you know. Interestingly the company was originally founded in vancouver bc also This is back in twenty fifteen and the two founders met at a university of british columbia so that our genesis is in canada. So i think the relationship with regulators started as far back as then and throughout the years. The interesting thing about canada is it's this interesting. Van diagram overlapped between rules. That look like the faa's rules and rules that look like European aviation space administration. Yasa's rules right and that's great. That's a pretty cool crucible to be able to test things out so Based on that you know relationship we also have a really really good. And i feel very qualified saying this. Because i come out of the boeing company regulatory team we've got You know five people in regulatory team who are absolutely top notch and they have amazing relationships with global regulators. And you know it's through those relationships that start talking about different things and challenges in the industry and somebody comes up with an idea. And it just kind of snowballed from there that said. Hey if you're willing to do this is a company because you know we got contribute some resources to make this happen going to be really good thing for the industry so we saw and we said this is a good idea. Let's let's go do it. Did you have something. David you look like you were i. Well i was. I was thinking john. We were talking about canada. Canadian regulations versus us faa regulations. Is it a challenge to navigate. All of everybody's doing different things like you said he yasa and the pacific regions etc i mean. Are you working on the assumption that you know you get the faa rigs in the rest of it you can sort of. How are you navigating all of the different rules. Yeah so the good news is. Nobody's got rules yet job. You know the your your observation is spot on though david in that. It is a challenge because the rules don't exist yet everybody's trying to figure it out and everybody has a slightly different angle on that. The good news is is that historically Regulators do reciprocate with each other. So you know if somebody comes up with a rule set. I that proves to be safe. Then if the other regulators don't adopt it they'll at least honor it. So you can take a us registered aircraft and fly in europe without having to get a european registration because there's reciprocity so We fully expect that the regulators will continue to behave in that way and during this process where the global regulatory community has been trying to figure it out. We've seen a remarkable amount of collaboration and information sharing back and forth It's mixed in with a healthy bitta competition. I think i think every regulator kinda wants to be first to figure it out and there's a feather in the cap there but but that said it hasn't been competitive. They've been sharing information around things like specific operation risk assessment. Or seora for your audience if they've ever heard that acronym And store methods and principles being applied across just about every jurisdiction today because it it provides us performance based in an operational based way to assess risks that then lead to subsequent approval so I've been incredibly pleased. Both at my time at boeing. And by time. Here iris to see that kind of regulatory collaboration and i expect it will continue. That's great it sounds really healthy productive relationship. Which is yeah. I mean as much as you can say. Government bureaucracy is healthy but yeah yeah well. Speaking of organizations there's something called the world economic forum and They have i guess. An aerospace droned section of it and Irises working in that context. What's that all about. They do honestly completely honored to be a part of that community It's an amazing group of government. Representatives industry representatives individuals academics. That are really focused. At how for specific sector of it. You know how drones can better the human condition around the world and That's really cool right because everybody wants to know that something you do like helps other people in some way. It's a tremendous motivator and a really nice and tangible reward for for the hard work that you put into something so when you look at Most of the rest of the world's economies these are regions of the world where there's not significant infrastructure but you still have population growth so you have. The challenges of things like population growth's fighting against the challenges of immature infrastructure and robotic aircraft can offer a lot of value in those environments for the urgent things like delivering medicines. Like that is amazing. And you've seen great success from from drone companies over the last few years you know namely companies like zip line or or swoop You know out there flying doing these kinds of deliveries for the betterment of humans. That live there right. That's awesome but the number of use cases where drones apply in the rest of the world is massive so this is really what the w. f. is trying to do is really explore these use cases find industry participants who are willing to kind of pay their own way for lack of better way to put it to be part of these missions and the value we get out of it is is learning right we get to go try stuff in the field for great purpose. it's wonderful for our teams to to get that sense of satisfaction But then we get a feedback loop from the deployment of systems in the real world. That helped Then improve the pace of development than the accuracy of developments running new capabilities. Helping a company is iris. How many employees or what kinds of skill sets are involved here. Yeah we're tiny. We're about forty people with three main parts of the company where we have the majority of people certainly on the aren decide building the tech certainly on the regulatory side because we need to have really good transparent data exchange with regulators But perhaps on the less obvious side. Although when i say to go of course obvious We have a pretty decent flight operations team and they fly drones and airplanes every day in reno to go gather the real world data that we need to validate and verify the performance of our system. So we have guy named in god. Bless him all he wants to do all day fly. That's what we make practically flies a cub in a myriad of very precise patterns and timings to make sure that it all lines up with our test methods and the way we want to to create the data so that we can validate the performance. We expect of that data. So he you know. He spends most of his days flying around at five hundred feet. He'll come over the desert. He's found the dream job pretty much. Maybe you would. You would think he was married to that airplane the way he talks about it but he kind is so john. How did you get where you are and maybe talk a little bit about your flying. Your flying yourself. Yes sure i was. That annoying kid at the airport was four years old telling everybody that would listen to how many engines were on the airplane. What thrusts they produced passengers. Jared yada yada yada right. Like i was that freak Just love airplanes and then On my fourteenth birthday my dad was army for twenty years and he He surprised me and he says giant got present we talked to and we got in the car and we drove out to fort dix in southern new jersey mcguire air force base specifically now. It's called joint base fort dix. Mcguire is on that what they call it now but big wire dicks lakers. Md outright so it was mcguire force base and they had an arrow club. Which if you're active duty or retired could use and your Dependence qualified so he said cool. We're gonna take flight lessons together. Went through the ground school together. And i had my first flight lesson at age fourteen so i was quite literally flying airplanes before i was driving cars and And i was hooked. It was all over. I knew i had to have like flying in my life one way or another so fortunately for me. I was always really good at math. And science and that led to an aerospace engineering undergrad In parallel got my private licence and my instrument license and then shortly after college. I said you know. Maybe i'll make a go of this. Being a pilot for career went and added the commercial ratings multi engine rating started teaching people to fly through flight instructors rating to build the hours necessary to apply to regional airline and along that path. I got an opportunity to join a company that was doing flight simulation for entertainment And this is a fascinating thing you can do all podcast in this business. That i could probably find some old stuff but it was a place called fighter town and we had twelve cockpits which were basically noses cut off of old fighters from the bone yard and we wired them up with a ho- tasks sticking throttle controls and projected visuals out the outside and it was all networked together so this was nineteen ninety. Three and i was the first engineer. Hired outside of the three founders. Who started the company. And i gotta tell. I fell in love with startups. I fell in love with this idea of entertainment and that business failed miserably. Break shining star for a couple years and people would come in. They buy their own flight suits their helmets. They didn't know each other's first names. They called each other by call signs. They you know. Enter the parking lot in their top transam. Blazing kenny loggins. Right out of top gun. It was absolutely fantastic But you know business didn't work and for me as a young engineer is not worth is coolest thing since sliced bread and it kind of Lit a fire in me to go back to school. So i got my mba learned. What business was all about. And then i could analyze that business and go. Oh no wonder that didn't work. So yeah so then i just kind of skip the middle bit of the career couple of other startups. I was a part of that. Didn't work out. And i ended up joining up with a british company. Two thousand which is a company called fight con motion systems which makes these high end optical motion tracking cameras. And if you ever seen the making of a movie or video game replay low balls on your body animated character that was as vicodin so I was sales guy for them for a little bit. Did really well. There ended up being a sales manager. Did well there ended up running the entertainment division out of la. We did a couple of acquisitions ran a studio in la that did special effects and they had the sister company which wasn't doing terribly well wasn't failing but it wasn't growing and they asked me to come in and see what i could do with it so we It used computer vision and airplanes. We took video and telemetry off of airborne platforms and used computer vision software to allow an analyst to make a report that might be a map. It might be a measurement might be target tracking. It might be target coordinates and we ended up. Pivoting that business to be A software company for the dod and ended up selling that business in twenty fifteen two bowling. That's how i got into the boeing family and then And then you know how i got to this place. It's been absolutely fascinating journey. And fortunately for me always been a thread through. that's fantastic. it's It's so nice when you can craft a career around something that you're really passionate about max you say that as if it was deliberate it was a complete accident and all that stuff happens so well you know luck sometimes figures into it. Yeah hey yeah. I'd rather be lucky than good. That's great but we do see lots of companies lots of startups in in the unmanned aviation space And we also see lots of of the big legacy companies air framers and others. That are playing i. That's actually the bad not not a good word to use not playing. But they're you know making investments in this In this field engaging into the spectrum of unbanned system but sounds great that sounds better than playing crude systems on crude systems. Yes that's completely So john de typically when when you see a new industry i'll i'll call it growing like this and all these players you end up. Having a lot of consolidation and companies fall out others are survivors. Are we looking you. Think at the same kind of scenario here. I think we're in the middle of that Maybe we're a little farther along with the small drones than we are saving vitale's taxes. But you know. When i was at boeing next i mean. This was a scant cheese a year and a half ago you could count one hundred fifty companies that were building air taxi right underneath with close to a thousand no actually another consolidation started. Now you really down to about five. That are legitimate contenders and and they're the five that are getting you know massive capital investments through either or venture capital because that's what it takes to bring new airplane to market. Yes a massive amount of capital. Yes you know. I mean it's estimated that the seven eight seven program from start to finish. Now mind you. This isn't a clean. Sheet design like boeing building. Twin engined airliners for decades right so to bring that airplane to certification you know was measured in multiple billions of dollars by the most expert company in the world. Doing it right so to be a startup coming into making passenger-carrying airplane from scratch. Better have money in the bees. And i think a lot of those new entrance kind of started to learn that and see the scope of the problem and self selected out right. The small drones space. Oh can i use that term going forward self-selected because we've talked about like amazon. You know going into drones and for a while there. Google was going to go into drones and they sort of you sort of go. Why are you doing this. And then but they self selected out because they figure. I'm going thank you john. That was my. That's my new term for the mike you term for for bingo. Yeah there you go awesome. I don't know if you have enough squares on the bingo card for self selected. But maybe you're just a really advanced bingo group. it's awesome But yeah i think consolidations part of any industry. I think This is one of the reasons we have this thing called. The regulatory resource center in the business is that it. It can be daunting to be a new entrant into this highly regulated space and even know where to start. We've been doing this now for several years and like i referred to earlier. Regulatory team is top notch. So what we've done is we've said. Hey let's take some of these learnings. Let's put them on a website. Let's put the documentation the workflows on a website. So people can have a place to go start and then you know the ones that are serious than we offer. Our professional regulatory services are people in their time As kind of a consulting service to help them take the next steps if they don't have the capacity or the expertise to do it themselves and again. This all goes to bring more people to be able to do this. Work with those kinds of airplanes ultimately is going to build the market base that we need for for the products that were building so. The regulatory resource center is available for who Anybody that is considering either. Starting drone business drone business wants to start to pursue beyond visual line of sight flying Right now the only path to being able to fly beyond visual line of sight commercially is to get a waiver from the faa and that waiver is basically something that exempts you from the rules. Either part one. Oh seven or ninety one or part one. Thirty five to go do the operations so It's not an easy path. There's a lot of paperwork that has to be done. There's a lot of data that you asked to have to produce if you've never done it before it can be a lengthy and costly process to learn so we don't. We don't want our customers to have to go through that pain Want them to be future customers. So we're doing this to help them go faster early to get to that point it. How long ago was that established. Well we've been doing it kind of honestly for the last couple of years. We officially established it last year. we recognize. There's enough people now doing this. That we probably we can get some return out of the investment of of codifying and putting it together We're also building out a workflow kind of phased approach to helping people take incremental steps towards a bb loss waiver that starts with certainly get access to the regulatory resource center on the webpage But then they have a very small firm fixed price package that we call a sas which allows them to share with us what they want to go do. And then we give them an assessment back based on regulatory knowledge of the the gaps in their approach where they need to do to kind of fill in those gaps. So it's kind of like a coaching kinda thing is but you know there's a lot of people out there that just don't know where to start so that's what we're trying to do. Tastic will john. Where do people go to learn more about service automation or the regulatory research center. Yeah sure it's simple Dub dub dub that iris onboard dot com all one word. Oh my god. I know what he's going to say. Go ahead david on. You are the first person ever. Besides max flight. I've ever heard say dub dub dub we used to make finding those years to dub dub airplane geeks dot com. What the hexa dub dub dub congratulations john. You just validated max. After after twelve years of of say there's another one out there. okay folks. I cannot confirm or deny whether he sent me now. I am to use that or not so that out there. We'll just leave it out there. John damage thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been a fascinating conversation. We could probably go for another whole episode Maybe we'll have you back in the future if We haven't scared you away completely but we really want to thank you for speaking with us and with our audience yet max david thank you guys for the time and the honor to be bored. I think this is a blast and those close to me. And those who work with me know that i could probably continue to talk about these things for hours on our so your audience. Maybe this is a good time to stop and take a break. But i appreciate it and yeah anytime i'd be happy to come back on and talk some more so thank you guys very much. Thank you thank you. I hope you enjoyed listening to john. Damage talk about detecting avoid technology. Their website is iris on board dot com. That's i r. i s on board dot com hours. Of course is airplane. Geeks dot com. And if you want more drone talk visit. Uav digest dot com. Or if you can't remember that drone podcast dot com will get you there in. Of course our email is the geeks. Airplane geeks dot com so next week we should have some content from sun and fun. I think we'll be announcing the four winners of the plane tags giveaway on that episode after that will return to our regular format. Think right by everybody in. Thanks for listening