18 Episode results for "Rcmp"
Industrial firms disclose cyber incidents. US DHS to check airliner cybersecurity. RCMP security case update. Bulletproof host taken down. Gnosticplayers. Royal phish.
"Hello Everyone Dave here with a quick reminder that if you are a woman and you're listening to this podcast chances are you should be interested in the cyber wires sixth annual women in cybersecurity reception. This year's event is Thursday October twenty four th at the international spy museum in Washington. DC You can learn more by visiting the cyber wire dot com slash WCs. That's the cyber wire dot com slash. WCBS check it out and we hope to see you there. Rheinmetall and D. C. have disclosed sustaining cyber attacks the US government is looking at airliner Cyber Cyber Vulnerabilities Sim jacker Israel but recent phone seem unaffected an update on the RCMP data misappropriation case German police raid bulletproof host NAS declares maybe back and someone is sending fishing snail mail that claims the British crown needs your help to ease the economic fallout of Brexit and now a word from our sponsor observe it the greatest what is threat to businesses today isn't the outsider trying to get in. It's the people you trust the ones who already have the keys your employees contractors and privileged users US sixty percent of online attacks carried out by insiders the stop these insider threats. We need to see what users are doing before an incident occurs observant observe it enables security teams to detect risky user activity investigate incidents in minutes and effectively respond with observant. You know the whole story. Get your free trial at observe dot com slash cyber wire. That's observe the letter I the letter T. dot com forward slash cyber wire and we thank observe it for sponsoring our show funding for this cyber wire podcast is made possible people in part by bug crowd connecting organizations with the top security researchers pen testers and white hat hackers in the world to identify ten times more vulnerabilities than scanners. The traditional pen tests learn more about how their award winning platform provides actionable insights like remediation advice to help fix faster while methodology driven assessments ensure compliance needs are met at bug crowd dot com from cyber wires studios that data tribe. I'm Dave Bittner with your cyber wire summary for Monday September September thirtieth two thousand nineteen in two apparently unrelated incidents rheinmetall and defence construction Canada sustained attacks on their. It he infrastructure in Ryan Mattel's case the attack whose precise nature the company didn't specify disrupted automotive production in Brazil Mexico and the US US Defence Construction Canada has been able to maintain operations in the face of what the Ottawa Sun reports may have been a ransomware attack the US government is giving fresh impetus to a program that would look for cyber vulnerabilities in commercial aircraft. The program is led by the Department of Homeland Security Security with participation by the departments of Transportation and defense dhs had acquired a used Boeing seven fifty seven airliner back in two thousand sixteen eighteen and used it to research potential vulnerabilities the program had slowed down in the wake of controversies over the way some of the initial findings were disclosed but vhs tends to resume the work the US Air Force is also conducting its own complimentary review of Commercial Aircraft Cybersecurity that research will address flight right systems airline hacks have tended to hit reservation systems for the usual criminal reasons the data stolen from such systems can be monetize but this research program will look for ways in which aircraft safety and availability could be compromised the air force fly some aircraft that are basically commercial models and there's considerable overlap between military and civilian avionics which explains the Services Interest Air Force Assistant Secretary for acquisition technology and logistics sticks Roper told The Wall Street Journal quote if we don't probe I our adversaries will we've been a little complacent and not trying to attack all parts of the airplane plane and quote researchers at SR labs say they've developed a way of determining whether devices are vulnerable to Sim Jacker and similar exploits these are the ones adaptive mobile recently warned about in which an attacker could pawn your phone by sending you an SMS message. They also run their checks against a representative representative sample of Susceptible Devices Sim jacker and the related W I B attack could apparently be used against about nine percent of android and I o devices. Sr labs concludes that still a lot of phones given that there are some seven billion phones kicking around these days but SR labs thinks the likelihood you'll be the affected is still pretty low and the good news is that none of the more recent models seem to be endanger. Anonymous sources have told the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation nation that the raid on Mr Cameron orchises Ottawa condo turned up dozens of encrypted devices that police may not be able to break Mr Ortis is the RCMP SEE MP intelligence director who's been arrested on charges related to alleged violations of the Information Security Act reporters say that he may have intended to pass sensitive sensitive information to either organized crime groups like the Sinoloa cartel or to unspecified foreign governments the CBC does note that encryption isn't illegal but that it does make the investigators lives more difficult they also found at least one interesting piece of paper and Mr Ortiz's quarters a a handwritten note that says the project which words were underlined and followed with John Lemons blog removing your pdf meta data the blog post mentioned offers a step by step guide to removing Meta data from a pdf the CBC says that a scan of some of Mr Horta's accessible devices indicated that between September up-tempo eighth and ninth some twenty-five documents or more had been processed and sanitized to remove identifying information the RCMP announced Mr Order Arrest on September thirteenth so the PDF's were scrubbed less than a week before he was taken into custody Mr or Mrs Bail hearing is set for this Friday in other news of crime and punishment police in the German launched of rhein-pfalz have raided and shut down a bulletproof hosting data center in Trouble Trubbach doc the AP reports the action crossed both launched and international boundaries with arrests near Frankfurt and other police action in the Netherlands Luxembourg and Poland the data center located in a surplus NATO facility acquired by a Dutch national in twenty thirteen is thought to have been involved in both contraband markets and in the two thousand sixteen gene distributed denial of service attack on Deutsche Telekom hosting contraband trading websites isn't a crime under German law at least provided. You don't really know that's that's what the sites are up to but the authorities think the people running the show at trump and truck knew perfectly well what was going on and they themselves were mobbed up allegedly. We hasten to add allegedly. NAS players may be back online game company Zingo disclosed a breach on September twelve and now the hacker news says that Nas Dick Players claims that he or she or they has counted coup against Singa attaining access to some two hundred eighteen million words with friends accounts nonstick players is neither a gray hat nor gadfly earlier this year they gained notoriety for offering seven hundred forty eighty seven million records called from twenty four popular sites and finally thanks to Mr Paul Ridden of skill web a firm in the UK. Hey that provides a range of business services. He shared an interesting little item that appeared in his mailbox with those of us who hang around linked in a snail mail letter purporting reporting to be from Her Majesty's household asks recipients to help Queen Elizabeth Save Britain's economy from brexit with Bitcoin of course if you get one of these as you'll no doubt want to hop to it because in exchange for your patriotic or nostalgic or Anglo Philip gesture you'll get your very own self a membership of the Royal L. Warrant Holders Association. We consulted are palace desk and they tell us that royal warrants are actually thing or more properly. They're actually things the things by which purveyors of goods and services to the Royal Family might be recognized for example Bluebird buses and fortnum and Mason groceries have got the Royal Warrant Warrant so does schweppes surprises there but so does Samsung thus her majesty actually listened to the cyber wire who knows we might qualify for a royal warrant but on the other hand the Palace desk tells us not to get our hopes up especially in as much as we're only Americans poor things and also because the editors over the years have developed ways about them that well just aren't right alas. No one seems to have taken her majesty up on the call for help so we may never know if easing the pain of brexit would earn a royal warrant and now a a word from our sponsor Edwards performance solutions. It's commonly accepted that cybersecurity is a business risk not an IT problem what may not be as commonly only accepted is that cybersecurity needs to be an integral part of every business strategy and cybersecurity can actually be an asset to your business achieving this outcome. It's a journey the journey starts with an understanding of what information is important to the business what business processes generate US store or transmit that information and what what are the rules and regulations impacting the information. The next part of the journey is understanding the risks to the business and those information assets followed closely by establishing shing a governance structure the manage those business risks this includes managing the risk to your supply chain. The journey is not an easy one and is fraught with roadblocks and obstacles tickles. You may need a guide Edwards. Performance solutions is ready to be your guide in this journey. Please visit their website E. D. W. P. S. dot com Tom to learn more. That's E. W. P. S. Dot Com and we thank Edwards performance solutions for sponsoring our show and pleased to be joined and once again by Malek Ben Salem. She's the senior. RND Manager for security at Accenture Labs Malek. It's great to have you back. I wanted to highlight some of the work that you and your eighteen or doing there at accenture your cyberthreat group highlighting some of the factors that are involved with the security. What can you share with us today? Yeah thanks they've so accenture as I defense group which is our threat. Intelligence Group has published its annual cyberthreat report an attack lights five different threat factors that are influencing TV cyber threat landscape. The first of those factors are compromising `promising geopolitics and new threats that emerged from this information and technology evolution so we know obviously disinformation has been a concern and many entities continue to warn of cyber threats related to upcoming elections Sion's what our analysts noted is that many of the threat factors are focusing on other types of global political and geopolitical critical events such as international summits you know evolving international tensions and sporting events like the Olympics etc so what are some of the other factors you're tracking this can factor is Haas suburb. Criminals are adapting and working together diversifying their strategies and looking more like states so despite the the high profile law enforcement actions that we've seen against criminal Middle Communities and syndicates in twenty eighteen the ability of fat factors to remain operational shows an increase in maturity and and resilience of criminal networks. This has been noticed in twenty nineteen our analysis indicates that conventional CYBERCRIME CYBERCRIME and financially motivated targeted attacks will continue to pose a significant threat for users and businesses however over the criminal operations will likely continue to shift their tactics to reduce risks of detection and destruction another trend that it our analysts have noticed was that localized underground economies continue to emerge and grow in non English. We're speaking countries such as China and Brazil and they tend to target their domestic populations due to familiarity with their own societies Heidi's on cultures. A third thing we've noticed is the selling and buying of direct access to networks ransomware delivery rather than carrying out advanced in Russians so there has been a marked increase in the sale of remote access to compromise networks and to commodity malware to conducting intrusions for financial gain on underground forums and marketplaces the grouping all of these trends we we expect that cybercriminals will work together more and more more like you know as I mentioned more light in communities as an syndicates and more like states you know it's interesting that this to follow this trend I think that the availability of tools continues Tinubu's to expand which seems to make it easier for these folks to cooperate and collaborate exactly so they commoditisation association of these tools and the markets that are being created to sell by these tools can't help wondering wondering if if that requires more collaboration on the good guys side absolutely absolutely we we definitely not need more collaboration on the defensive side. What we're noticing more recently is that some of these actors actually may have of hybrid motives whether financial ideological or political for instance we've seen that some ransomware appears to have been deployed to destroy information on a target rather than to efficiently make money an example of this is Gogo ransomware that paralyzed a Scandinavian Aluminium Company in March two thousand nineteen? It involved a variant that made it difficult to pay the ransom which suggests that it's real target may have been the victim companies share price and not you know financial. Oh gain before factor is that improved ecosystem hygiene is pushing threats to the supply chain turning friends into into frenemies as companies are improving their security posture there are as they are adopting the traditional all industries cyberthreat countermeasures this is making it difficult for a cyber actress to target them directly and the easier way into to attack them becomes through their partners or their of vendors and then the final factor is the hardware Kabila's like meltdown inspector that were initially discovered in early two thousand eighteen many cloud providers have deployed tocado measures to those vulnerabilities which consisted in slowing down the the processors however businesses based on their size may decide that it makes more sense for them to own or to build on prem clouds in in order to have more control about whether those contra measures should be deployed or not because we know that those updates slowed down the processor. If certain companies bigger companies have higher workloads they may want to consider building their own on on prem cloud instead of you know relying on the the more conventional clouds to run their workloads. Now I mean looking at this this list of five elements I mean is there a common thread throughout them sir sort of a a take home message that folks should be thinking of Volvo. One big message is that the cyber threat landscape continues to evolve so companies have to be resilient to end how to continue working with their cyber threat intelligence groups to update there security mitigation strategies. We'll look than selenium. Thanks for joining us. Thank you day and that's the cyber wire thanks to all of our sponsors for making the cyber wire possible. Especially are supporting sponsor observed the leading insider a threat management platform learn more at observe IT DOT com. Don't forget to check out the grumpy old GEEKS podcast where I contribute to a regular segment called Security Baha. I joined Jason and Brian on their show for a lively discussion of the latest security news every week. You can find grumpy geeks. Were all the fine podcasts are listed and check out the recorded future podcast which I also host the subject there is threatened elegance and every week we talked to interesting people about timely cybersecurity topics. That's at recorded accorded future dot com slash podcast the cyber wire podcast is proudly produced in Maryland out of the startup studios of data tribe with their CO building. The next generation Asian of cybersecurity teams and technology are amazing cyber wire team is Stefan Kelsey Bond Tim no Dr Joe Kerrigan Carol -Tario Nick Valenki Bennett Mo- Chris Russell John Patrick Jennifer Ivan Heater Kilby and I'm Dave Bittner. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow
Police culture and racism in the ranks
"Throughout the nineteen eighty s strange phenomenon with sweeping north, America? They were in a panic and like people in a panic they want solutions allegations of underground satanic cults, torturing and terrorizing children. The thing is. There were no satanic cults preying on children and nearly thirty years later. The people touched by it all are still picking up the pieces. A work of fiction. This is a work of history. Satanic panic. The latest CBC I'm cover. Available now. This is a CBC podcast? There is a global conversation happening right now, but the roles of Police Services in Canada we've been hearing. Stories of discrimination and racism felt not only by members of the public, but by former officers as well and police RCMP leaders are being asked tough questions, but current policies and tactics, and whether the culture of policing has allowed incidents like these to happen Elan. Bobby served as an RCMP officer for twenty nine years and retired in two thousand sixteen. He's now an adviser with the Center for Research Action. On race relations in Montreal and then Bobby No. Good Morning. Good Morning. How are you? I'm well just briefly. How would you describe police culture in Canada? But a face culture is is pickler. I mean law enforcement is is an area where I takes a particular kind of individuals to be able to function within it. it's something that's also very. Closely guarded in its I. I called a total institution. Really it's. It's like the military. It's It's like any kind of organizations where you know again. It takes a special kind of individuals to. To become part of. How were you treated as a black RCMP officer? was like trader black CNPF so much like any black individual operating within the. Total his teaching that I've seen in terms of the military I was I was i. mean people and you gotta remember I Tony. RCMP nearly nine hundred ninety s so so back in those days I sort of conduct. Of overt racism. You know I had. Black older black colleagues that were part of the are seeing much earlier. You know in the seventies early eighties where you know. The use of the N. word you know would be bantered around quite liberally and you know all kinds of things like that my expansively rcmp was more the. No, you know, there were some over, you know. Use of the term. But it was more embedded. It was innuendos. There was because by then some of the policies had come in place in terms of you know human rights in terms of so-called diversity policies, and so on and so forth so a lot of the things were more systemic in nature. Okay, for instance you know in terms of You know a hymen or things like that. People tend to promote, or I should say get along with people that think like them that look like them and so on and so forth and so when you talk about when you talk about assignments, I mean. What do you mean how how is that? Systemic racism is Courses it could be courses. It could be promotional opportunities it could. It could be you know. Position on a team or something along those lines where people would be passed over specifically because of who they were. I've seen I've seen that happening time and time again near CFP no myself. But to others and those things are extremely difficult to prove. Right, because there is this sort of you know officially, there's a policy of Benjamin whereas. You know one of the first thing I was told what I got on the EMT. When I after I finish training you know is Ho- listen you know. Oh, you're black. You're you're you're you're francophone? Bilingual? My goodness you're GonNa go far so that's the kind of you know. I you know innuendos that people have automatically first of all. You got on jobs, simply because you. Know you're bilingual on top of that, so doors are going to be magically opening four you. and so those are the kinds of things that you live with throughout throat, but that's just again. That's just. Point out and stuff just endemic to the RCMP policing general. What happens though if you speak up in that culture and you say a? You've heard the N. word being bandied around that. You feel as though you're being discriminated against. Right well. It's like again in any other any other environment if you if you speak up. Then First of all people don't believe it exists I. Vision of yours emp. Obviously, the images is paramount so to speak up well, then you gotta be prepared back it up, and as I said unless it's over unless it's direct you know in which case they're. They're going to try and settle. Sort of I would say out of core out of the is public. With you but if it's if it's a subtle. then you've got to prove your case and in some instances is very very. Lengthy difficult and people get ostracized. Right ostracized how? How well again people? Questioned they they label you as a troublemaker or chronic complaint and having a chip on your shoulder, and and And I've seen offices black officers of the gone through your whole career. and it really affected your personal lives to be honest with you. Yesterday the CBS's Rosemary Barton's spoke with the Commissioner of the RCMP rendall lucky around these issues. To listen to what she said. I honestly heard about fifteen or twenty definitions of systemic racism, and if it refers to an unconscious bias that exists, we definitely have that in the RCMP and we are not immune to it. At all in any case. And there are times when our members don't act in accordance with our core values, which includes races. I should mention we did ask ourselves with the Commissioner of the RCMP. What do you make of her admission that there's unconscious bias within that force. Well sometimes you know when using the term unconscious bias in. Makes shown like you know, sort of gives pass or at least. Give up the hook. When he would, you have wanted her. What would you of hundred to say instead? Why the recognition of systemic systemic discrimination I think I think we're major now where? I think it should be recognized, but she's not unique i. mean you know I mean? Many administrators, in fact, you know, the Premier of Quebec said doesn't even exist now I think the misunderstanding off between the word for stemming in the worship dramatic. Rate so if you're talking about something that systematic. The. conjugate the idea that it's it's done on purpose, and it's done deliberately, and it's done. You know to would've goal in mind. You know when you look at static. Talking about a series of of of practices policies way of doing things out of formal or informal that over time and you know have have embedded. The organization in in the way of of operations in the way of doing things within that organization so. People think simply do not understand what it means, and you know they're trying to come up with their best definition for it through their best analysis. For what is it like to be? A black COP. Right now retired for years ago, but in this moment. What do you think it's like? Well. Two things number one. Number one I mean it should. It should be first of all. It provides a safe space for for officers actually speak out about racism discrimination, which you know, which never existed before you know and so that's a good thing, but at same time it's particularly an organization where there's shooting few, and far you know there's fewer black officers, then you. You had the way to the world on your shoulders. Okay I remember the days when you know during the Rodney King era where I was a young officer back then and you know I I was part of the you know public quarter unit and the public order you but I I was in Toronto at the time, and we have to protect the the the embassy there, and and of course you know you get questioned. You know about your colleagues. All kinds of innuendos again in windows that are that are banded about so it's tough right now for officers to black officers, because of what's. What's happening and people were questioned the legitimacy of of of the whole movement and say well. It's happening the United States. We don't have that here. And so on and so forth, but at the same time I would encourage officers to speak out because there's no news, no sensible organization out there. That's going to punish you for speaking out of the criminalization raises against the doors, wide open conversations happening just before I. Let you go I mean in the last couple of seconds that we have. Do you think that this moment will will change police culture? Or better. I mean, will it? Will it I mean we'll see what happens. I'm always I'm always you know I I'm always willing to trust, but you know I also want to verify so so You know we'll see what happens. Bobby no good to speak with you. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much for having me? is a former officer now adviser with the Center for Research Action on race relations in Montreal. Throughout the nineteen eighties, a strange phenomenon with sweeping North America. They were in a panic. And like people in panic, they want solutions allegations of underground satanic cults, torturing and terrorizing children. The thing is. There were no satanic cults preying on children and nearly thirty years later. The people touched by it all are still picking up the pieces. To Work Affection. This is a work of history. Satanic panic. The latest CBC I'm cover. Available Now I'm Elliot. Hundreds, lyle and I'm Herman the Rod, and where the hosts of inappropriate questions did you lose weight? How're you doing? How'd you get pregnant? We talked to people who have been off these questions we ask where these questions come from, and we learned some more respectful of been curious. Whether you've asked an inappropriate question or been asked an inappropriate question gum. Get inappropriate with us. Inappropriate questions is available. Now. You can find it on the CBC. Listen APP or wherever you find podcasts. Over the years, many officers shared stories like Alan knows and black and indigenous communities say that over policing and excessive force are all too common leslie. Biko's is a former police officer and a researcher studying police culture across Canada. She has insight into why these problems persist in why police leaders can be reluctant to talk about them. There's legal good morning to you. Good Morning. Matt I'm wealthy so common. Do you think experience like a lands are within police forces across this country? Well what I can say from my own research, which involves a national survey and interviews with officers across the country and although I can't generalize those findings I have over approximately eight hundred and fifty voices within this study, and what I can say, there's definitely some common themes that have emerged, and while you were doing that interview I was nodding my head along with what he was saying. Because I've certainly heard those things in myself within within work I've been doing. What are those Kalman themes that emerged. So. Things around a police culture that were traditionally part of police culture. When we look at the research on police culture, so this idea of hyper masculinity, paramilitary US versus them meaning the police insular culture versus the public that can become quite toxic could also have a positive impact as well, but when it's toxic, it's it's toxic, and that loyalty and secrecy and I fear of reporting, and that comes down I've heard about your reporting nonstop whether that be mental health, because the feeling of being seen as a weakness and the stigma and fear around that. I have heard of officers. Women black indigenous officers of color who have been afraid to come forward to talk about things such as discrimination that they experienced and the thing is. You could argue that for some officers. These things where perception but I also have officers in my work. Di- did try you know did try to report things whether that's misconduct of other officers, whether that's their own personal experiences of discrimination and harassment within the policing service, and some of them have done so quite publicly but you know they are examples about retaliation so that's part of the problem of how do you shift it? Because you have examples of officers who have tried to come forward who do experience, sometimes extreme professional and personal implications for trying to speak out and say trying to do quote unquote the right thing it might be. It might be valuable in this briefly just to kind of define if we're talking about systemic racism in policing what we actually mean, D., A. Commissioner of the RCMP was asked, but yesterday Rosemary Barton said that she's heard fifteen or twenty different definitions of systemic racism in that. She's trying to figure out what that actually means in in some ways. What does it mean? Well. Yeah I heard that. I might have lost really to. You know of how to respond to that. I I don't know I. I'm not surprised that you disheartening their husband, so many examples given in all kinds of ways whether that's reports by indigenous and black people of color and their experiences with police. There's been inquiries. There's been commissions. There's the missing and murdered. Indigenous women work. There's. A karting work that went across Canada others Thunder Bay. Who the? Police oversight body found in their findings that there was indeed systemic racism against indigenous communities that live in that area by that Police Service. Decades of evidence and I at what point you have to ask yourself. What point does this become willful In terms of how at this point as a police leader do you not understand these things, and that's part of I think the problem policing seems to be very reluctant to talk about issues of race to engage in issues about race. Even in my own study, it was really interesting. Interesting, I ask a lot of really tough questions around experiences in the culture, and some people were very forthright and you know we're. We're willing to talk about race, but I noticed it was one of the questions that was very hesitant, and was very charged and I think that is sort of the problem. The police community is there's this feeling like if we admit that this exists. than Oh right? This is a massive problem in which you never get under that very ironic because. Is What is needed in the face to face well in the face of not admitting it, you'll also often here. This is just a the the phrases, a few bad apples. Okay, pick up on that when you hear that what goes through your mind? yes, so there's some common Some scenes of the police and community likes to use rather than sort of confront these issues straight on, so we get the justifications and the defensiveness. We get the bad apple argument right just. Offer versus the systemic structural nature. We did the outraged denials and We get the you know it's not racial. Profiling is good police work often well. We're not as bad as the US. And all of these problematic in their own right and Like I said it comes down to reputation reputation above all else because I think what has happened is of course, public trust and confidence in the police makes up police, legitimacy, and their power and authority and I think sometimes the administration's The leaders get their heels dug in feeling like if they admit that things like racism is occurring, you know sexual harassment discrimination all these things going on, if the admitted that somehow they move some of that power and authority or impacts, their legitimacy in public is in some way but again it's. The first step is to actually admit it. And if you look at the historical creation and roots of policing this country, you can see very clear threads as to how isis basis and policing remains. What happens if you speak out if you're an officer and I ask you this as somebody who studied this, but also as a former police officer, if you speak abode, racism or sexism, Homophobia, what happens? Well, there's a range of different things that can happen I've had in the work that I've done. There's been one or two officers that sells his. Though it went relatively well but on the whole, the vast majority that I spoke to either experienced or seen other officers that had a tried, and you know there's a lot of things that can be to prove isn't there so you know suddenly you're not getting that promotion or those opportunities that you thought were yours aren't coming up sometimes complete ostracization. From your peers. Labeled as a rat, you're not. You're not trustworthy anymore and police things On Trust so if you're not trusted by your unit or your leadership, then you're out and being out of that dominant group in that kind of environment can have real implications, and I have A. In the in the work I've done that had severe mental health even off on leave right now for these issues officers who have reported that they call for backup and didn't receive it now. That is rare 'cause I. DON'T WANNA. Make it look like that's going on everywhere, but I certainly had it reported, and it has come up and other studies in Canada done. so it can have real. You know really important implications, and of course, the biggest implication there is, it creates this culture of fear, and if you can't have officers speaking out in reporting the things that are going on, because they are the ones that see the most right there on the ground. They know what's going on then. How do you shifted in her interview yesterday? The commissioner of the RCMP said that the forces is open to review and committed to doing better. Do you believe that you can change it in the last couple of minutes that we have? Can you change policies around policing if you don't change the culture that you've been describing? No. You know cultural will eat policy for breakfast. You can't just this is. This is something that will be so hard to shift, and I'm not even I'm not convinced you could even shift it from the inside part of the problem. That I hear from officers, and even just in other research, and you know you hear other people. Saying is that. This internal investigation processes is is very problematic now whether that be police services, investigating their own incidents or other police services investigating for. Police Services our oversight bodies, having questions and concerns around them and their level of objectivity and the lack of power, and they have all these things kind of come together to make that culture really hard to shift, because if things are being done internally sometimes they get buried and we've seen. We've seen reports of commissions inquiries. We've seen you know officers reporting and saying hey. I came forward all these times and nobody did anything and the other problem there is that even if they are the offending officer is found guilty. What is the? What is the consequence for that? Those can be uneven. You know and often again. These things can be hidden and protected because of this idea of reputation above all else. Leslie it's great to speak with you, but this year inside is important. Thank you. Thank you personally because as a former police officer, she's also a PhD candidate in sociology at Western University for more CBC podcasts go to CBC DOT CA. Slash podcasts.
What we know and dont know about the Nova Scotia shooting
"By the time you listen to this it will have been almost forty eight hours since the carnage ended and police still aren't sure how many people are dead. It's at least nineteen. It's the deadliest mass shooting in Canadian history. We don't have a motive. The surest piece of information we have right now about the tragedy in Nova Scotia. This weekend is that it's going to be weeks and months not hours or days before we learn the store for now we will learn more by horrifying piece. The gunman who at one point was dressed as a police officer in driving a lookalike RCMP. Cruiser one on a killing spree in multiple communities. Shooting people in their homes and setting fires. Believe they're victims still within the remains of those homes gunman claimed the lives of at least eighteen people among them a woman. In Uniform Constable Heidi Stevenson of the RCMP earlier. This afternoon I met with Heidi's family and there are no words to describe their pain. I know this is a challenging time for Nova Scotia's. There's are so many unanswered questions. We are working hard to find out as much information as possible in the days and weeks to come today. We'll try to do what the entire country is. We'll try to comprehend what happened to grapple with the toll of the shooting spree that stretches across a province to mourn the victims and ask why. And we'll do that all remotely and that too is a devastating part of this attack. Think of how we have in the past come together as communities and cities and provinces as a country to mourn these kinds of horse and to offer our support to the victims the survivors and their families. None of that is possible now. Not a pat on the shoulder or a hut so today we'll tell you what we do and don't know about a tragedy taking place inside a tragedy and what comes for Nova Scotia now on Jordan Heath Rawlings. This is the big story Dan. All Strand is the news director at news. Ninety five seven in Halifax he joins us now. Hi Dan Hi Jordan how are you? I'm alright so I hope you guys are doing okay. Can you just first of all the bare bones for people who've been seeing a flood of news? Can you tell us what happened this weekend? What do we now? And what's changing now? While the Genesis of the whole thing Jordan began on Saturday evening. Rcmp UP IN PUERTO PICK which is a community on the Bay of Fundy in Colchester County Nova Scotia very close to Truro for those. That may be familiar with the map. Rcmp went to Weapons call at a residence in Puerto. Pick very close to it and when they arrived The they said that they found what they were describing as multiple casualties and the The call continued. It wasn't until about eight o'clock in the morning on Sunday that we started to learn a little bit more narrow on their social media site NOVA SCOTIA RCMP. Put out a tweet that This was an active shooter situation and asked anybody in the port pick area or in great village which is a community very close to it or the surrounding area to To lock their doors and not to go outside as they were in the middle of an operation that kind of started everything going Social media wise end for everybody around there. They began to pursuit of of a suspect. That's suspect according to our C. N. P. had a vehicle that resembled an RCMP cruiser and was travelling north from port epic in through Colchester County. Later on Saturday morning Sunday morning rather he was spotted in a in a village called Glenn home near a campground in that vehicle and then shortly after that Rcmp say that he switched vehicles into a silver chevy tracker and began heading southbound on highway one o two which is the highway that leads directly to. Halifax about forty minutes later we got a tweet from the RCMP that suspect had been in custody effectively ending the search. And then that's when we started to to learn a little bit more about what the extent of this thing what what was the first indication on Sunday morning to what we would soon discover the extent of it. How did it break well? It was a bit bizarre. I've been doing this for about twenty five years now. obviously we're in the age of social media so this kind of unfolded on the Nova Scotia. Rcmp social media site. They were using it to communicate with people they weren't putting out press releases like we would have seen in the past or or having a spokesperson calling local media it was it was all unfolding on their social media site and they were updating the the residents in the media and everybody else as this thing was going on it was it was almost a play by play which to me was was something. I've never seen before. How DID WE LEARN Just how bad this was. When did the full extent of it become clear? I think that we all kind of assumed early on. I know I did that. this was going to be a a tragic event just by the way that the police were acting on social media and and that was an active shooter situation for quite some time. Now at that point. I don't think anybody was thinking that there was going to be the The extent of casualties with with eighteen at least eighteen victims and and the shooter ending up dying as well. We knew it was bad but we didn't know until six o'clock when the RCMP held their first news conference after they had to put this This chase I guess to rest that The extent the full extent of of just how bad this what. What can you tell me about how this was able to continue for so long? I mean usually we hear about a shooting in a lock down and you know we can find the guy. And it's over but he. He made it to so many different places. Rcmp said that he had a they called it a mockup of of an RCMP. Cruiser that he had Had He'd built and Had in his possession not a law against it. Apparently the Justice Minister Nova Scotia said that There's no law against Doing that There is a law however against a dressing up and as a police officer in the RCMP confirming in their news. Conference that This Shooter or this alleged shooter. I guess was Dressed up in in a partial or almost a complete uniform so Gave him the ability to to until they figure that out to To move about as looking like a police officer so That would have made it more difficult for the responding officers. I would assume to To discern who this person was and how in you know they. They wouldn't be looking for a RCMP type vehicle to be leaving the scene. What do we know about the shooter right now? We don't know much we know He may dentures for a living. I he had some property. In Port AU PECK. He had an office in The greater HR Marian Dartmouth but other than that not much. I mean there's an awful lot of speculation out there about this individual but Nothing sort of official from RCMP. The keeping their cards very close to their chest with regards to Any kind of descriptions or or any motivations at this This individual may have had before and during and after this this incident. You mentioned that there's been a lot of talk on social media in a Lotta people making guesses what happens when there's this kind of vacuum of information because I speak for people in the rest of the country you know. We knew something horrifying was happening and various outlets have piece together. What went down in the bigger scheme of things I guess but like I just I feel like I don't know the details. I don't know you know the the wet and the how and I think that You're not alone in thinking that way but had a conversation earlier today with the public safety or or the Justice Minister Nova Scotia who is a former. Rcmp office for himself and he said that the RCMP are embarking upon. Probably if not the one of the biggest most complex police investigations in the history of Nova Scotia. There are sixteen different crime scenes with regards to this so I think that the RCMP are trying to be very careful with what they're saying into not compromise their investigation but You're right you know. There's the we always want to know more. It's just it's just human nature particularly journalist. You always want to know more and you want to get that information out. What do we know about the victims of this I know one of them was an RCMP officer. But who were the other ones where they connected to the shooter? Was THIS RANDOM What do we know about that? Rcmp in their news conference earlier said that Victims some of the victims were known to the suspect and some were not some were targeted. They said and some random so It kind of goes all over the place with regards to that. There was no at least at this point. They haven't identified a real sort of motivation behind the whole thing. But there are five houses in the area that That were burned down and They are have been unable to at least this point. Get all the way through the rubble of those houses. So that's why the NPR saying that We may see even a higher death toll than we already have. Can you backtrack a little and kind of take me through this? So it starts import a pick and you mentioned that. He moved to a couple of locations where the houses that were burned in doing what happened there. They have not said Where the houses that were burned Officially I do believe it was early on because he was After that Piecing together just based on the information that they gave us as the pursuit was going on. I don't think that he stopped sort of moving in a vehicle but again that not confirmed by the RCMP. I I I would assume that. Some of those houses were in the in the sort of where it all began in the community of quarterback. What was it like on Sunday when this news was breaking? And you know to your point. There weren't any press conferences until much later and people were trying to figure out what's going on whereas this guy and all they have is A tweet essentially what were you guys doing We were trying to to get as much information as we possibly could out to people Obviously everybody wanted to know where this person was and I think there was at least speaking. Personally there was more and more concern for me As we watched where this car or this car that was carrying this individual was was going. I mean important. Pick his is a good hour and twenty five hour and thirty minutes sort of north west of Halifax so I mean close but not really close to the radio station and to you know our families here in Halifax but as this this pursuit started to to occur and they were they were posting more information where this individual was being spotted he was getting closer and closer and closer and closer to Halifax in fact the whole thing came to an end in a community called Enfield at a truck. Stop Gas Station. Which for those of you. Who are familiar with the geography of Halifax's essentially at the airport. So as as this getting closer I would. I don't think it's A. It's a stretch to suggest that people living in listening to us in h. r. m. were growing more and more concerned that this individual was traveling on on the major highway that leads into into HR. I'm wondering about the the community itself and how it's dealing with not knowing anything You know obviously it's a. It's an anxious time anyway. You know well the the community. There's dribs and drabs. That are coming out. We learned yesterday. Obviously that There was an RCMP officer. That was killed who was very involved in her community that That one is is hitting home with a lot of people. We also learned today that two nurses that were working up. There were killed a couple that were corrections. Officers were killed a couple that owned a propane business up. There were also Listed as the casualties Nova Scotia our morning and and It was interesting that this being the pandemic that we're in and Also not being able to gather in groups over five and having distinct meters apart. It it It hit dead center of the The provincial announcement today on on From the Premier and from the medical officer of Health on the covert situation where they had to come out and tell people that you know. It's it's awful and we need to mourn and you need to reach out and we need to support people but we also have to abide by the rules so that we don't start to spread. Cova more than it's being spread so that on top of all of the other things that are bad with this nation is is compounding things. I think yeah I was Gonna ask what people are doing to kind of connect with one another because I know the can't come together to mourn and you know speaking of the last thing that happened in in our city and Toronto When you had the van attack a couple of years ago people came together and you know would lay flowers in gathering groups and it helped the city. And what do you do virtually to to Kinda replace that while there are people that are trying to come up with solutions for that? There's a there's a virtual vigil being planned now for Friday I don't know what the form of that's going to be if it's going to be a gigantic zoom Conference or how. The technology is going to work with that. I can tell you though that today. people were outside Trying to stay two meters. Apart and they ringed a road that comes into a an rcmp detachment not necessarily in that area just south of the city while still part of the city in upper ten. Talen ED during a shift change for the RCMP at our CPA headquarters in Dartmouth. There is a flag that they've posted on the fence in front of the RCMP detachment and There wasn't a lot but there were a number of people that have been placing flowers at that site. I don't know if you remember when had the shootings in Moncton The could that police station became just absolutely inundated with flowers and You know it it at least at this point. It hasn't happened here because people are trying to degree of as the best they can but they know that. We're all still subject to social distancing rolls before I let you go. How are you guys? And how's the province doing your city doing and what comes next. What are you guys need in in the coming days After this I said it earlier today to my crew. Here is that You know we've always told everybody that Nova Scotia's are made of a strong stock and I think that we are made if a strong stock and I think that the Nova Scotian will Once they get past the initial shock of this whole whole event and And they get at least a chance to to start to figure out what this was all about and get a chance for to at least process at I think that you'll see them. Come together in In droves to support the families that are going to be impacted by this or that already are impacted by this moving forward I think that answers will probably help. I think that You know if we get here breezes motivations some sort of I don't know if closures the right word but Some sort of reason why I think that's the biggest question people want to know is why and UH hopefully the police investigation will tell us that. It's going to change the province. I don't think there's any doubt of that. I don't know if if we can go as far and say that we lost our innocence on Sun. Saturday but It certainly will have an impact on this province Probably forever. Because I mean these things don't happen in Nova Scotia Right. This is you know we're we're we're Nova Scotia. This is where everybody is safe in. Everybody is you know it's small. It's this isn't the big city there is not all the big city Troubles that come with that but I think that I think people are are GONNA be forever changed moving forward. Well thanks for this down. I hope you guys Hope we all get the answers. We want you guys stay safe sending your lots of love from the rest to Canada. Thanks during appreciate it Dan. All Strand is the news director at news. Ninety five seven and Halifax our hearts go out to all of Nova Scotia today. That was the big story. We have more for you at the Big Story. Podcast DOT CA. You can always find us on twitter at the big story. Fbi and of course we're in podcast player. Whatever it is we're also at frequency PODCAST NETWORK DOT COM with a whole bunch of other podcasts. That you might enjoy. Thanks for listening. I'm Jordan Heath Rawlings. We'll talk tomorrow.
Introducing our new season...
"The RCMP is like no other police force in the entire work every Mahdi must be more than an expert policemen. His moral turpitude must evolved from the fact that he is a god fearing man and a solid citizen to with a deep respect for the public he is sworn to protect. Over the last few months, thousands of Canadians have marched against police brutality and systemic racism. But, the police lie at the very heart of Canadian identity. Amounting red surge and a stetson hat is one of the most iconic images this country has ever produced. Inner New Season of Commons. We'll bring you stories about the police from the RCMP's early days as a paramilitary force they murdered. To the unresolved questions around the massacre in Puerto Peak Nova Scotia. Infamous Tales of police wrongdoing from dirty tricks in Quebec to the so called starlight tours in Saskatchewan athletes car pulled in front of me. Neil isn't a back. In jail me guys are GonNa kill me. Stories hard knuckled politically incorrect police chief who rose to become a federal cabinet minister. I would like to call for Mr Fantino resignation resignation or fired in about corrupt and racist cops who just keep getting promoted up through the ranks. Comments. The police will delve into the power. The police wheeled in this country. In uncovered the length, they're willing to go to hold onto it.
Indigenous communities and police violence
"I'm Malaysians Lyle and I'm Herman. The RUDBAR and we're the hosts of inappropriate questions. Did you lose weight? How are you doing? How'd you get pregnant? We talked to people who have been asked these questions we ask where these questions come from, and be darned some more respectful ways of been curious so whether you've asked an inappropriate western or been asked an inappropriate question gum. Get inappropriate with us. Inappropriate questions is available. Now you can find it on the CBC, listen APP or wherever you find podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. This week. Disturbing video emerged of an RCMP officer using his truck to knock over an new command. The incident happened on Monday in Connecticut formerly known as Cape Dorset Nunavut. RCMP arrested the man for public intoxication. That officer has now been reassigned and put on administrative duties Nunavik RCMP ordered an independent investigation into whether criminal charges are warranted in this incident. He emergence of the video has also bolstered calls for RCMP officers to be outfitted with body cameras particularly in the north. Kenny Bell is the mayor of Calot and the head of the Association of Municipalities. Mayor Bell Good Morning Good Morning thank you. Thanks for joining us. What were your thoughts when you saw this video of an rcmp officer using the door of a police truck to run this man down? It's unbelievable. You can imagine anyone that. How have people in your community reacted to this? Everyone's upset. One wants to see You know anyone hit by a vehicle. Once that's that's traumatizing is is so you know? I don't think anyone's happy about that. You're the mayor of none of its largest municipality. How would you describe the relationship between RCMP and members of your community? Yeah. There's you know. There's generational mistrust here with cap. You know anyway were forced for leaving removed some locations and relocated here. by their CPA and There's a long history You know not so not everybody. I. Mean You know I have a great relationship. but it's You know it's it's. It's rocky and I think the cameras is start to like everyone to trust each other easier sense right now. I want to talk about those cameras, but is your sense that there is a real absence of trust right now between the community and the police. Yet one now not complete one, but there's definitely mistrust There's a lot of you know. Social Media Complaints About Miss Usa Authority and You know just being a right, not responsive. But you know. What they're still be part of our community. Of course so a you know what there's not mistrust, but there is there is mistrust. You've been married for just two hundred eleven days. have. You had to deal with similar incidents in in your short time in this office. There's there's crime I haven't got any really get very many complaints firstly about Um issues. It's always social media which could never verify. You have called along with other leaders from innovate for the RCMP to wear body cameras. What would that do in terms of helping to bridge that gap between police and the community? Because the start you know, we hear all kinds of things, but if you video to be able to say, that did or didn't happen. it holds you know, remember accountable and holds the public accountable. And You know I just think that it. You know I think those stories might change sometimes, or they might not become stores because the dealers there or it comes real news because the videos there officer was wrong. You talked about the social media things, and and raise the issue of perhaps not trusting. What's on social media which is? The breeding ground often for misinformation disinformation, but it also does spread videos that people wouldn't otherwise see. Do you think that that that having the body cameras? The police body cameras would eliminate that that sense of mistrust in terms of what's spreading on social media. Yeah, well. No I mean if there's people should video are competing attractions and. I just been having the other side from from our. Perspective would help situation for the good or the bad You know. This incident on Monday is not the first time that police have been asked for a body cameras. What's been the response from the? top up She said that that. They just don't have the money for th. They're not know, but they don't have the money for it. That's pretty much the answer from the as well. There's just no money for. This is an incident that's being seen not just across this country, but now around the world. It's coming at a time as you know when people are talking about trust and mistrust of police would do you want from the federal government in this moment? We we need to really examine Do some justice reform across the country and. Be a great start from the government to make that move. most, if not all policies are. And laws are just you know not working today in today's world than we need to make sure that we change, that can get to speak with you. I appreciate it. Thank you, thank you very much. Matt Kenny Battle Is America Calloway and the head of the Association of Municipalities. He was in callaway. Laureate. Load is a lawyer. She's also in Laurie Good morning to you. What did you make of this video of this man being hit by the door of a police truck as it as it approached him. I definitely had a lot of. Questions I was shocked. Aged. And I wondered like what could. What could this circumstances have been? Whether the other pieces of the story that we're not being told so it definitely. That out triangle, emotions, shock and outrage. RCMP say that they had reports that this man was fighting. He was arrested for public intoxication, but in the video you see that he he's alone What does it say to you that he was arrested in what? Is clearly a violent way. Ending. Up firmed for. And some of their stories that we heard in media about. The police and their treatment towards indigenous people, black people just vulnerable groups that. The measures to protect us as vulnerable communities aren't. They're. Being taught to RCMP, officers that that it seems to me that. GNP when they're being trained and being trained in no way to. Respect. vulnerable communities that rather than protecting them that. Ever Seen Peel 'cause. There's Choosing to behave in enforcement that. Damage in. Our view of them because of the. Violence that. They're allowed to practice and. what they say doing to protect A. Community. How would you describe your an inequality? Then how would you describe the relationship between the RCMP and the in you? It community? Like our mayor said. There is a long history with inmate and the earth EMP and. From the beginning. The relationship was a fractured one. It was not a relationship that was one. Depression oppression. In the. Were indeed forced into settlements by UN p.. and We have. There's been reports of Docs lavas in the past there, there is definitely. Not just. A lockup truck trust, but they're also fear that we have against the RCMP. We fear them because of. How we know we can't be treated for minor. My name was given us or whatever, so it's definitely there is more I to this trust. Appear to what they're some P. do people grow up with that fear? Is that something? That, young people are aware of when they're in the community. I I I definitely remember tearing the RCMP like I've had my own experience as as a child I remember having to. because the. intergenerational impacts of colonialism of residential schools. Having to be taken by the CFP away from my mom and having to. be take like just the very active taking being a being away. From my mom, it was very. It was quite damaging for a very long time, but I also had positive experiences because it was also the urgent. Latest. Parts of my life that. Returned me to my mom, so they're both. difficult. And kind of forgiving story that I can have but the RCMP, but I I. I tend to want to stand. With my fellow in with my fellow indigenous people and bumble people's and say that we need better ways to sure that we're being protected by. The people that were supposed to be trusting to protect us. Part of this is often about who is doing the policing This isn't the first time the questions around how the RCMP responded. Incidents in Nunavut have been raised David. Common ACC is a member of the legislature there. He's from pond inlet. His son was shot and killed by police twenty seventeen have listened to David Common Oak. My son was distraught. His sister had committed suicide one year before. He Wanted to come into side. My wife and I call your skin be. Thinking that. They would help him save his life instead. They shot him. Skimpy said that he thought my son was gonNA. Shoot him, so he shot him. I think he would have helped a lot. They had in RCMP officer trying to g escalate situation. If, they had he knew special constable, working for your skin be, things may have been different, or what are the differences that an officer might have made in situations like these? well. I am pretty sure that. David. Son would have known the officer. But they have a common history. Come and. Experiences and to be able to speak him in inept. It I think that would have been a huge. difference that would have. been. What would have given us a positive outcome? But the. Special. Constable would have. I think Sean with the respect and the sensitivity back Davidson would need at the time of the incident. Just before I let you go in two thousand nineteen, the CBC reported that of the hundred thirty one RCMP members in nunavut. Just three are in new it. Why has it been so difficult for the force to hire and retain in officers? I like I mentioned a bit earlier. in the relationship with the pain has not been an easy one. There's a lot of trauma. The RCMP has. Given exposure to and there has not been. Measures to reconcile that trauma that has created that was created by the treatment. So I a huge part of it is that. When it when you can't trust. The, MTA feel the earth emp. Your. Question I think as a regular human being be. Would you enter? An RCMP GNP if you can't trust them if you if you pair them so. There have been many in the measures. To. To to. Promote, then need for an and what? Would do to have in Nick. and Law enforcement. Laureate Load I. Appreciate Your time this morning. Thank you very much. In the me. Load is an Iraq lawyer based in a Catholic. I'm Alina hundreds. Lyle and I'm herb. The rodwell and we're the hosts of inappropriate questions. Did you lose weight? How are you doing? How'd you get pregnant? We talked to people who have been off these questions we ask where these questions come from, and we learned some more respectful of been curious, so whether you've asked an inappropriate question or been asked and inappropriate question gum. Get inappropriate with us. Inappropriate questions is available. Now you can find it on the CBC listen APP or wherever you find podcasts. The strained relationship between and indigenous communities extends far beyond Nunavut, yesterday and indigenous woman was shot and killed by police in Edmonston New Brunswick during wellness check the Edmonston police have asked an independent agency to investigate in Winnipeg. Three indigenous people have been killed by police this spring marinate as a member of the Berens River First Nation lawyer an instructor at the University of Winnipeg Myra good morning to you. Good morning based on what we're hearing from the north, but also what I was reading in these in the introduction about what's been happening in New Brunswick and in Winnipeg, how would you characterize the relationship between police and indigenous and first nations communities in this country? Mayor Bell really nailed it when he says that the relationship with police and indigenous people in particular, but I think it's bars and is really about an abuse power and that. I think characterizes the relationship of Canada not only with indigenous people but immigrant. people people of Color. Frankly, this country was established on that abuse of power and more than one hundred fifty years later. We're still talking about the same issues. We're still talking about issues of racism and sexism and Ageism, and this have not gone away. Tell me what you see in Winnipeg. Indigenous people represent something like eleven percent of the population of Winnipeg, but account for nearly two thirds of the people who died were injured during an interaction with police between two thousand and two thousand seventeen. What do those numbers tell you? Well. The number is in in Manitoba. In general are horrific, so there are studies that have come out as recently as two days ago, that ninety percent of children in care are indigenous and the that. Taking children into care becomes a pipeline into prison, so children are in care and up in conflict with the law, which is what we're seeing a day after day after day, and then they end up in jail. We know that in indigenous people in Manitoba will live eleven years less than all other Manitoba's. We know that there are many communities under boil water advisories. We know that the the state of. Aboriginal lives in Manitoba in Winnipeg as being a population with the highest urban averaged on population in Canada. It's dismal and so the police brutality that we're seeing here I. Think really is just the tip of the iceberg. In terms of this relationship that has not worked since confederation could that change led was talking about who is in the policing service, and who's in the the the the force itself would that change if you change the complexion of of of the police force had more people from indigenous first nations communities as part of that for us. What we're really talking about is rejigging the power structure the dynamic. Of the state with indigenous people and people of Color or So yes, having more indigenous police officers may hell. But. Is more important to understand that we are sovereign nations, and that we have a way of managing our own matters right? Putting a gun in the hand of an in a police officer is not necessarily going to change that dynamic when we begin to deal with the structural racism in the and the systemic racism at a policy level at a legal level. Then we have some potential for change. In the last couple of minutes that we have, we spoke at the beginning of the week as these protests were really taking fire here in Canada, and also in the United States protests around police relationships with black communities. Is this a moment for change, do you think? Do you see the possibility for change coming out of this conversation around policing not again just in black communities, but also in indigenous communities. I do I think we are in at a practice here for first major change and the change that I see is not that indigenous people are speaking up within speaking for a long long time. It's not that The black lives matter campaign is finally being heard by the Common Canadian. They've been speaking for a long long time. I think the difference is that those people who have said things as in a Green Party leadership hopeful Murray has said he you know he said. I think we're past, sexism, ageism and racism. And that's simply not true. We're all these people accountable now for their ignorance and I think that's why we have a chance that change if they'll stop talking. Then the WHO have something to say about equity and fairness and justice, their voices can be heard, and you see optum EC optimism in that moment. I. Do I do because there's abuse of power is finally being called out. My rotate. It's great to speak with you again. I appreciate it. Thank you. Mark Indigenous lawyer based in Winnipeg also co editor of the book, Surviving Candida Indigenous Peoples Celebrate one hundred fifty years of betrayal. We did reach out to the RCMP for comment. They emailed this statement. That reads in part. The RCMP takes the conduct of our officers seriously and want to assure the public. We have confidence in the process of external investigation to determine the circumstances of the event whether criminal charges should be sworn against the officer for more CBC PODCASTS Goto CBC. DOT CA slash podcasts.
S7 E7: No Malicious Intent
"In Nineteen Ninety Five, a college student disappeared on a trip across the A. PORTIA missing right away, but they wouldn't take it, so his mother started investigating the case file I started going through in some people. It wasn't interviewed. I joined this mother search for justice or you recording. US I am yeah. Someone knows something season six. Available now. This is a CBC podcast. Speak with Karen rebel this is she's. Retired, are CPI. Member Karen Roy del worked in the same office as Dave more. Both. Were VI- class analysts. Via class is a computer database used to track violent offenders across the country. Retired RCMP constable David Moore was investigating serial killer. Michael, Mick Gray when Moore discovered links between gray and the murder of Brenda Way. I'm sure you're familiar with his involvement in the school, innocent wrongful conviction. Yes. We discussed Oliver Files together. Do you recall when Dave went to on vacation to do and he had. A number of a call them flowcharts on the walls of the that he was in. And when he came back everything. I know for a fact. The materials were taken from the Bedford Office. Was On vacation. And you talking about the the. Working Papers flowcharts and the boxes that was all in his office in desperate. And that was gone when he returned from vacation. I remember distinctly the day he came back to work. We all walked in and he was limited. And understandably, so because he has worked on this file quite intensely for a period of time. Were you aware that that the his bike class entries had been deleted. After the fact I definitely was. Aware of it now I've talked to other people who worked on by class across the country and to question that keeps coming up, is you don't just press a button and it delete stuff for so people have to have authority, and then you have to go through line by line to delete. Does that make sense to you? And a mess, you have the the rights to delete which in our office it would have been at the supervisory level or are feel beyond that no one at my level I'm Dave level would have had that ability to do so. Dave said that there were something like seven hundred or nine hundred entries into the bus, and that each one of those would have been deleted independently. Yes and it is an individual item by item type thing yeah so. Excuse me for interrupting. You're working on a national database. So you can't just arbitrarily go in and and delete things just for the sake of join. Does it sound right to you that it would take days and days to do that. It would take a considerable amount of time. That's for sure. Frankly had I known what was going to happen. I would have made every effort to stop it because. Davis on onto something when it came to. Tune being accused of this. And I to me. He nailed it way back in two thousand and one. And this happened not during office hours because I would have been there in a number of other. Of My. Contemporaries would have been at work at the same time. Nobody knew the the going of. His work. He just Kinda vanished into thin air. I'm Tim Busse Gay and this is uncover. Gid Wrong? Episode. Seven No malicious intent. The. First Time I ever heard about gleason was back in twenty fourteen. When I got a tip about something called an extraordinary parole hearing happening down at the courts. It's a special Dale. Hearing for a prisoner who would not otherwise be eligible for parole. and. It happens very rarely. This one was only the sixth to happen in Canadian history. So there was this man Glenn as soon who had been imprisoned for almost seventeen years. And, there was a report before the courts. And based on whatever was in that report, a Nova Scotia Supreme Court judge granted Glenn Bail. But that report, which contain critical information on a miscarriage of justice was sealed by the court. In Twenty, nineteen me and my little startup news site the Halifax Examiner along with the CBC and the Canadian Press Hired a lawyer and petition the courts to get the document unsealed. It costs us. Something north of fifty thousand dollars. And then. We waited. So, how did this potentially explosive report come about? The McDonald Glimpse Lawyer From Innocence Canada conducted his own investigation. Including finding links to serial killer Michael, McGregor. He then turned all his findings over to the criminal conviction, review, group or C or G. The CCR G. is a branch of the Federal Department of Justice and the last hope for those who have exhausted all their appeals. They take on glints case and assign lawyer. Mark Green. News Marguerite I justice candidate. My job is to assess applications by individuals can believe they've been wrong. MEAN BECA criminal events. Such individual. Men soon as apply to the Ministry of Justice for view of his conviction for murdering Brenda weight, and so I'm here today to McHugh with respect to this. Mark Green is talking to a prisoner who, at one time was in a segregation unit with Michael Mick Gray. I'm not going to use his name because the talk about another prisoner could put him in danger. Want to talk you out just generally out. Your regulation of. Coming into contact with Michael MacRae. So. You remember when it was originally that you were placed in faith for Gatien abuse with. Off and on. User over three or four year period. In your. Skin and just from the affidavit, some reference to Intel you that he killed. The girl s lazier throat another girl watch. mcgrane confessed to six murders. Confessing unless certain conditions were met by police. He had an accomplice and a number of other murders and said they would need to be protected from prosecution. That deal was never made, and grace stopped talking to police. But, he continued bragging to his fellow. Is. Yeezy he's. Easier away with murder. You made reference to say. COPS girls thrown. He said the costs for so stupid. He said was in two hundred yards where this place was, and now they were so stupid that. They never got it for because there was no evidence linking onto it. Was At the same point for affidavit. He talked about killing prostitute Dartmouth so tell me. What you recall. And if she said anything about prostitutes or you just all. He said there is you know they're perfect phantoms? The prisoner also tells Mark Green that mcgrane wears socks and sandals all year round. When Glenn Question Roberta Trial. She testified that the man who assaulted her wore sandals even though it was the middle of winter. Mark Green interviews another prisoner who I also won't name here. WHO SPENT MONTHS IN A cell next to mid grey. McGregor would pass him notes what prisoners call tights. Okay, I wanNA focus on, and think back to your time at renews I'd like you to talk to me about the setup the physical setup in segregation where you're located where immigration is located. For starters are then downstairs before my showed up. least they're. They're wack. Those crackheads spot. So I listened to least downstairs going to court for. Her, and can even be quieter areas and say something moving edge there should get to. The cell beside me see three was empty. For Migration showed up as Break beside me. They I play the music industry. And see if anybody plays music. So. It's black. Sabbath going. The might regret like that. Go Man was his favorite song, saying he requested it probably a couple of times a day. Okay so let's talk about then. Brenda Way and again. You recall specifically. This was done mostly through San for much. You told me earlier. That was mostly not this case that he was telling you about. Weight, and would you be ready to keep stock to him? Right. Back. Okay eastbound dollars victim teeny emphasize all of this vote to death. Did he mention anything about the where the murder happened to recall anything that? stabbed. Jolie he killed. A girl Meyer prostitute by the name of Brenda breath away. The interviews you just heard are part of Mark Green special report. And no one would have ever known about those prisoner testimonies or other explosive information, because it almost didn't make it to the light of day. Assume couldn't talk about his case. Because of a sweeping publication, Ban ceiling order the kept information, the minister used out of the public eye, the CBC the Halifax Examiner and the Canadian Press. Join Forces to argue for the release of that information lawyer David. Coles made that argument today. The courtroom was full of lawyers representing the Halifax police, the RCMP the Nova Scotia Crown and the CR G. Each had slightly different concerns. An all oppose fully releasing the information. But. We want. The report was a reexamination of the original evidence and new evidence, pointing to collusion by the witnesses, recanting previous testimony and lies about deals May. As I was reviewing the document. Someone who is very familiar with its contents gave me a tip. Check page sixty four. I went to that page and the section headline read interview with Rcmp Constable David Moore. Mark Green discovered Dave more and the RCMP destruction of evidence. How do you take down criminal network hidden in the shadows? I tell him that I know that they're the ones who are running the largest Charlie's website on the dark net, the journalists working to expose the darkest corners of the Internet. That's your playroom for. That's your baby's clothes. That's my house. The police who hunt down online predators we right the environment the using. No, we didn't. We didn't make it. They made hunting moorhead. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. In Nineteen Ninety Five, a college student disappeared on a trip across the USA reporting portia missing right away, but they wouldn't take, so his mother started investigating got the case file I started going through and saw people that wasn't interviewed. I joined this mother search for justice or you recording US am. Someone knows something season six. Available now. As a police officer. Dave more couldn't talk publicly about his investigation into the bring away murder and Michael Gray. Or that he thought an innocent man was sitting in prison. And that the RCMP destroyed evidence that could help prove it. We. Don't know how mark green found out about Dave more. But once he reached out to interview him Dave. Moore was finally legally able to tell all he knew. Green Documents Dave more story, and then interviews members of the RCMP. Mark Green speaks to RCMP inspector Larry Wilson. Head of Major Crimes Nova Scotia. Okay so as always saying I became involved when constable more made the allegations about a supervisor. Racing his analytical findings in the class system, and that he destroyed physical evidence, supporting is analysis about possible suspects in Glenis matter, so of course I found that quite alarming. Under no circumstances should any worksheet have ever been deleted? That you shouldn't have happened is that he's had are seen people's. Yeah. I mean you're not gonna see it written anywhere, but everybody knows that they shouldn't delete files matter of fact. I'll cut right to the chase and Saito from electric perspective. We were not successful in recovering any of the data. Inspector Wilson Discusses who can delete those files. He, says those at the very top in Ottawa can, but other than that. It would have to be people in the Bedford Class Office. What I learned was that. The only people who can change any records in given by center are the people who are employed in that class center. So I interviewed everybody that worked in that office at that time. The modifications were probably done. At the request of Sergeant Hutchings, he. Shouldn't I should back that up? They weren't done at the request of Sergeant. Hutchings. What asserted hutchings requested was that these individuals review those cases. According to Wilson Hutchings only ordered a review of day. Moore's work in the database. Wilson suggests this was done for quality control purposes. But Wilson, says those he interviewed seem to have a hard time remembering exactly why they conducted the review. One of the challenges that I found was that there was big memory problems with people who were interviewing of course ten years ago, but Sergeant Hutchings says he doesn't even remember doing the repeal. And so it was difficult getting him to describe why it was. He ordered the review, but there's no doubt that the review was conducted at the request of Sergeant Hutchings can. And the one one of things I can say though is after speaking to the analyst. Of the day is that? Even though they will say that he directed the review he they will also say that at no time. Did he direct anybody? Delete anything. However a lot of work was deleted. And when Mark Green interviewed the analysts prior to speak into Wilson, some said they were concerned about making deletions and expressed that concern to Hutchins. Here's how Wilson explained it Mark Green. It looks to me after conducting my review. That there was a member of the unit who is over. In his review, a little bit overzealous, and instead of doing what he thought just leaving, only doing the right thing hit the delete button. This one overzealous analysts would have had a hit that button hundreds and hundreds of times. Wilson says he likely knows who it is, but because the analysts in question did not admit to doing this, the RCMP did not share that name with the Department of Justice. Mark Green steers his questions away from the database deletions to the disappearance, Dave Moore's notes, paperwork and physical evidence. What constable more told me was missing was physical. Evidence officer notes corrections. Candidates Psych reports letters to and from the gray. Inter analyst Communication Flow Chart Timeline graphs. I remember that Dave kept copious notes and everything. But nobody could tell us even the administrative staff who typically would response for moving stuff around. None of them could tell us. We're the spouse win sergeant hutchings said that he doesn't remember. It was a short story to tell you that essentially that we couldn't locate them. No matter what we did. Point out something that you've tried to. Involve discussions with a number of individuals, one of them being Kim Bradley. Mark Green had interviewed Bradley prior to Interviewing Wilson. In that interview, Bradley had told green that Dave Moore's files had been shredded. Wilson wants to clarify that term. Just to clarify something you said their vote to search Bradley foul when we talked who voted? Preston on. What he meant by files being treaded as you said. He said something blocking. Perhaps used the wrong terminology there with respect to files being shred. So, you're saying you're saying that he is now. Retracting statement that information was shredded. Yeah, well, he's just saying that the language was probably not appropriate. It was stronger than what he terms so. Can you tell me? What would be more accurate depiction of the well I think he was just suggesting that he was talking about the electronic files, not the working files. Okay. Shredded seems an odd term to use to describe computer, fouls being deleted. It's important to understand here. Who Sergeant Ken Bradley Is. Sergeant Ken Bradley was from the Halifax Police. He worked with the RCMP in the Vikings Unit. Bradley had actually worked on the original Brinda way investigation. Bradley was a forensic identification specialist. He was the COP Constable Day. McDonald sent to identify and photograph the infamous knife that was found a year after the murder. Bradley, even testified at glints trial. Moore's investigation post a conflict of interest for Halifax police. The police after all had played a major role in the conviction of an innocent man. including non. Investigating other suspects. If the suspicion. Is that somebody took? His four banker's boxes ran through threader. I would think that somebody in the office would have seen at would've would make note of that. And I think the people that I interviewed were fairly forthcoming, and nobody suggested that was the case. No. Cracking Bradley had sad, but. There will be nothing stopping somebody from coming in during. Your hours and doing that sort of thing or just removing documents altogether. Crack it is posturing. If we. Are To believe that a number of the computer files were intention lead it. I don't think it's a huge trash to think somebody would possibly go to that extent. Hugely. Can you tell me? The reason for lures transfer move ever from class to wherever you must transferred to upon his richer. Sergeant Hutchings of says it has to do with the his inability to get along with others in the office. Karen Brueghel worked in the class office for the entire time. Day more was there. Her recollection is of an office environment where everyone got along. and that Dave Moore was a very good colleague. I asked Karen del about Wilson's reveal. just want read you the relevant paragraph and see what you think about it says the administrative review was extensive and found by class worksheets had been deleted in two thousand and four, when employees of the bike clash unit were asked to review a number of analysis completed from two, thousand, one, two, thousand and three for quality control purposes, the deletions were contrary to policy and should not have happened. They were not however with malicious intent. Why would you be deleting for quality control purposes. Really really peculiar. Look. It implies that the deletions were accidental, but it doesn't actually say that. That doesn't add up in my opinion. When you're building a database, you're doing your quality control prior to doing your final entry on the system. So, the objective, is to get as large and diverse a database as possible in order to do Chris. Karen. Boy Del describes more as the hardest worker in the office. She also describes their Supervisor Sergeant Dick Hutchings. Catching basically had an issue with Dave and myself and other people in the office because. To me my from my perspective to be ineffective analyst. You have to think outside of the box. And if you don't. Do that you're not going to capture the the demographic and the mature. They need in order to have a successful analysis. This would era tate Dick to no end that he would become very agitated with all of us if you've questioned him on anything. And and he. To be just very annoyed with the process now I didn't see Dick do anything. Firsthand and I know nothing of the goings of Dave's material and. Not. Sure why this happens. Other than it would be a control of basically putting gave back in the box. Or Dick wanted him to be. and. Dave is the type of person. He's got massively of a bulldog unless he gets a hold of something, he doesn't like Oh. He has a successful conclusion. And it's. It's like the assume file. He was going to work day and night until he's at the information required and someone is unjustly imprisoned. That shouldn't be so. He has a lot of passion when it comes to that sort of thing, but he also. Is Not the least bit shy of confronting management's. Confronting the bureaucracy and pointing out the if they've made a mistake that it's wrong, and he can substantiate why the management doesn't always. Pick kindly to that. You. Know this. As a retired member of the RCMP I'm. I wasn't impressed while I was there with with what happened. and to me is. Almost a level of corruption within her off. A soon was wrongfully convicted nearly twenty years ago for the murder of his former girlfriend Brenda way. The documents point to this man serial killer Michael. Wayne mccray as another suspect, the information about another possible suspect wasn't disclosed to assumes lawyers, and our officers says he brought the information to his superiors and was told he was wasting. His time told C. B.. C. News. He was later transfered out of his unit. His digital files deleted. The hard copies have disappeared. That would be one. Prominent Feature of this case that would point to. Chocking malfeasance, but today the RCMP's says there was no malicious intent. If anything has been done, it is not been intentional, or it was a mistake, but there has been no intention for the RCMP in any way to try and do a cover up. I can tell you right now. I knew everything about this case. You think for freaking second if I knew the RCMP destroyed evidence that I would be shouting from the rooftops, I knew had no idea zero. That's Sean McDonald Glenn's lawyer. The statement by the RCMP in response to that become in public, was something along the lines of Oh. No ill intent here. My response to that will be to just talk about the evidence. You're locked door members. Stuff is inside that locked inside Dave Moore's office. They're filing cabinet with me on them. Only Dave Moore has keys to. Here's what had to happen for hundreds of pages of police notes, hundreds of paid hardcopy documents and files. Gigabytes of digital data to be deleted altered or destroyed. Just bear with me. You have to be able to number one. Get inside the RCMP station in Bedford number to have access to the vibe class unit in the RCMP station at Bedford number three somehow get through the locked door. The vibe class squad were date. Moore's office was. You have to be able to break? The finally locks on the finally cabinet in Moore's office. then. You. Take the documents that of the filing cabinet. What you do with? How did they disappear? Right there's no record of how they gone from broken lock into the filing cabinet. into somebody assumes something to carry them. Where did they take them? Who took them? There's videos inside a police station. Only certain people had access to override the the digital information on a class high invite class members database. Who did that? Who had access to it? And what did they do? Why do we have no record of what it looked like before it was deleted altered or otherwise destroyed. On Dave Moore's walls, he had charts of his investigation walls filled with detail. RCMP charts of evidence. So, How'd you get in the building into the squad into the office into the final clubs in this instant into the computer? All over the walls. Like That's the evidence. So. It's really up to the people that are listening to this to draw conclusions. Here's Glenn's other lawyer Phil Campbell. Claims on behalf of the ICMP that any evidence destruction was innocent or done in good faith or not for the purpose of obstructing justice. Rings Hollow Rings Hollow understates. It is facially untenable. And it wasn't just that evidence had been destroyed. It's the suspicious timing of the destruction. In Mark Greens report he points directly to a correlation between the timing of destruction of evidence and Jerome Kennedy's requests for information, or what is called in legal terms disclosure. Jerome Kennedy Glenn's lawyer for his appeal back in two thousand four. Asked for information on Michael, McGregor. In two thousand four two things happened in parallel. One, is that the police? In Halifax a combined. Behavioral, profiling, Task Force RCMP and Health Fax regional officers. Acquired and then destroyed. The evidence implicating. Intending to exonerate Glenn assume, that's happening. And it is a calculated. Documented described destruction of evidence protested at the time and. Clearly against policy at the same time. Jerome Kennedy. Is Casting around for grounds of appeal for Glenis soon. Who is claiming as always at? He's innocent. Kennedy and his investigator had discovered that mcgrane live near the murder scene and moved out only a day or two after Brenda was murdered. They also looked into other suspects and requested information and even specifically. VI- class information. So. As it unfolds those two paths. Lead directly to Ottawa and to the head of class across the country. Leo O'Brien. In his report, Mark Green documents, there was a meeting held between the Nova Scotia Crown Health police and the national head of VI- Ike. Class Inspector, Leo O'Brien. And the mission of the three of them is to decide how to deal with. The disclosure problem. That? Meeting takes place and then days later. Inspector O'Brien starts together a series of emails from Dave more personally. and Dave Moore. Says what he has found, he sketches out the essence of his analysis of Glenis soons, likely innocence, including information about Michael McGrath specifically requested by drome Kennedy. and He. Relates the steps he has taken to try to get. Local that is Halifax officers to disclose it to tell the crown or to tell Jerem Kennedy or at a towel. The investigator here's what I gotTA. Do something about it. And so by. Early February of two thousand five you have. Within the knowledge of Inspector O'Brien, the disclosure request, which requires as a matter of law as any police officer knows relevant information to be given to the crown in order to be given to the defense, and ultimately the court and you've got documented and. In his possession on his computer emails to which he responds. Saying that an officer under his command. has discovered. A large amount of highly. Evidence about Glenis soon the very thing in other words that Jerome Kennedy is looking for. There is only one proper conclusion to that story. Inspector O'Brien knows the truth is under an obligation to disclose the truth and does nothing. And Glenis soon stays in jail. Another nine years. Kennedy's requests for information about Mcgregor a was stonewalled by health, ex-police and RCMP. He was told he was fishing. Kennedy said. They shut me down. They gave me nothing. RCMP and health ex police have not responded to my questions about whether there have been any further investigations or disciplinary actions related to either the destruction of evidence. Or the failure to disclose evidence. When Glenn is granted bail in twenty fourteen? The cruelty of the Nova Scotia. Justice system still doesn't stop for him. Even though there is a report, that says there is a likely miscarriage of justice. Nova Scotia Crown Prosecutor Marion Fortunes Stone request. Harsh bail conditions on Glenn. They include severe restrictions on his movements. Constant reporting to to different police agencies including if he comes into contact at all with the woman. And for his twenty four hour a day surveillance Glenn has to pay for his own ankle monitor. There is still a long process ahead forgotten. He could get a retrial or be exonerated. Or even sent back to prison at anytime. All the while Glenn is experiencing some of his most difficult years. He starts his house arrest out. West in British Columbia. Well first of all to walk through the impact that it had on Glenn. The I mean first of all. You've got a layer of stress that existed. and started when Brenda died. He loved her. That broke his heart. Then, you have him being wrongly convicted of her murder. Put in a federal penitentiary tortured beaten attacked, so you've got that layer of of stress that he lived with. He surrendered when the Internet really wasn't a big deal. He surrendered before tax messages I mean everything was new in a new world. He was living out. West and BC sort of isolated with nobody around him. And that he costs and fear that they were gonNA. Drag him back into the bowels of federal penitentiary, so you've never free. He his exile levels are developed as as I saw them. Over time he could never relax. And then there was a point where I spoke to him. WAS A window of A. Couple weeks probably that I noticed him degrading his mental health had degraded to the point where he was almost like a child on the phone with me. He was in his apartment. The windows were were tape shot. He didn't want anybody looking in this little basement. Apartment and Glenn naturally is an intelligent charismatic kind guy. He was the opposite he was he was. He was almost in a fetal position in the dark apart basement apartment with the lights on and I remember the day. I. Thank God. They got on the phone and he was listening to me. I'm not a psychologist, but clear to me that he had had a breakdown and. Just calmly, said gun. Listen to me a favor and he was say everything I've. One response everything I said Yup Yup like a child. And it broke my heart right and. I said. We favorite. Get in your car. Start Your car right now. Drive to the emergency room. Of the hospital and say okay. said. Do me a favor. Park your car. Go to the emergency room and saving breakdown. Coming up on the final episode of Dead Wrong. So at the end of it. There is two people that I want to look in the face Wednesday McDonnell for ruining my life running my father's life ruining my family's life. And the other person is is Mike, mcgraff. Before? She was supposed to actually report for work for very first day as a police officer. They wrote a letter saying we send our offer. You haven't been candid with us of your offer to let your dad live with you and they destroyed her dreams. What price do you put out a man's life because in my opinion? There's not enough money to compensate for the injustice that I suffered. Dead, wrong is written and produced by Janice Evans Nancy Hunter and me Tim Bosquet. Sound Design by Evan Kelly. Shambhu plan provided transcripts. Our? Digital producer is emily canal. Special, thanks to Sarah Melton. Chris Oak is our story editor. The senior producer of CBC. PODCAST is Tanya Springer. And our executive producer is if new Ronnie. For discussion posts pictures from the case and more find us on facebook and twitter at uncover CBC. We're also on INSTAGRAM AT CBC PODCAST For more CBC, original podcasts Goto CBC, dot ca slash original podcasts.
S7 E6: The Trail of a Killer
"How do you take down criminal network hidden in the shadows I? Tell him that I know that they're the ones who are running the largest child abuse website on the dark net, the journalists working to expose the darkest corners of the Internet. That's your playroom for. That's your baby's clothes. That's my house. The police who hunt down online predators. Environment the using. No, we didn't. We didn't make it. They made it hunting moorhead. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. This episode contains graphic descriptions of violence. Listener discretion is advised. On March. First Nineteen. Ninety eight in Moncton New Brunswick. A man named Glenn Bennett Calls Police and tells them. He has witnessed a terrible crime. Within hours Michael. mccray is arrested. The next day the CBC reports on Grey's appearance at court. There was intense security surrounding the appearance this morning of thirty two year old Michael Gray. He's been charged with two counts of first degree murder. The first is in connection with forty eight year old Joan. Hicks a neighbor who identified her body, says her throat had been cut, and there were several slashes across her upper body. mccray is also charged with murdering the. The woman's eleven year old daughter, Nina no details about the cause of her death have been released. Both bodies have been sent to Halifax for autopsies. Police say the bodies were discovered early Sunday morning in their basement apartment near the MONCTON hospital in the city's North End. The scene was so gruesome that a psychological team will be assembled to council. The officers involved. Awaiting Trial Michael McGrady is placed in prison in Renews Newport Swick. While there he starts talking to a fellow prisoner named Emery la La. Telling the blonde that Joan Nina Hicks. Just his latest two victims. He is killed many others before them. leblon is so disturbed by the revelation that he calls a copy knows. Within Weeks Magrao's is sitting with police. Telling them he is a serial killer. In. Two thousand CBC reporter Joanne Roberts received a call from gray from the prison. Tell me about these these other murders. Why are you talking about them now? Raw there's a few reasons. If everybody all the cops that I've talked to when he was in there, saying that it all wanted to help. Clear up these cases, so for the families know what happened in law. That and I'm not gonNA Bullshit. You say that that's the reason because it's not because that's not really concerned to me i. know that sounds but. It's not mostly because I want to get some help. and to make a deal. There's some other murders that I'm gonNA confess to. But there's three conditions that I wanNA. Have met I right. We will return to McGrady's conditions a bit later. Roberts interview continues. There's been a lot of talk about how many other murders there are, Mr Mugabe how many are there? Ones that I've been charged with, there's both sixteen. A couple of them. I'm not sure if they lived through diet at the time, they might have live, but I think we're supposed sixteen altogether. Where did they happen all over the country, a couple of states? What do you say to someone who says? that. This might not be true. You're just somebody who wants to be. The number. One confessed agreements and confessed all the murders I confess the five or six already. And all you gotTa do is make my conditions. You'll find out. How can you tell us about one of them? That might give us some idea of the kind of details you do have. Well there's this couple down in. Nova. Scotia there's one from Ramos. Or Anemia Gil, Tucker. Picked hitch picked up side of a bus station actually hitchhiking. There was another guy with the. We're both from your arms. Little Small Town Nova Scotia. And we still go into chocolate. Chocolate offers drinks. You WanNa stop to drink, so we stopped the truck. When we stopped, the truck started stabbing her. Left side of the road. This road called but I think it's called concession confessional. Name with scale talker. Gil Tucker was a seventeen year old girl from the north. End, Dartmouth, who was killed in nineteen, eighty, five in the woods near Church point. A small town on the French shore of Nova Scotia. Her murder gone unsolved for fifteen years. And Michael? mccray has just given interviewer Joanne Roberts information that only the police and the murderer would know. How come you never been caught? I think I was pretty damn smart. I always made sure that they were strangers. I, always I go from city to city I pop into a city, and I lived there for a couple of months. NYQUIL I do a prostitute or a homosexual or a homeless person or something like that somebody who was not connected to me. I always used to study a lot -able for instance scientist. One of my biggest hobbies was studying other serial killers and stuff like that I have for years. I don't think it was locker. Nothing like that. I think it's because I was always very very careful when I did. I always knew what I was doing I always planning well ahead. We say YOU'RE IN JAIL! I'll definitely. I'm Tim boost gay. And this is uncovering. Dead Wrong. Episode six. The trail of a killer. Roberta a sex worker whose true identity I've been protecting had identified glint soon at his trial as the man who had horribly attacked her. In two thousand and ten, she saw a picture of serial killer Michael Mick Gray. She broke down sobbing and said it was he McGregor, who had attacked her. But when Joanne Roberts interviewed mcvay in the year two thousand. No one knew the full extent of his criminal history. Joanne Roberts was working at CBC as the host of information morning in Moncton. Today she's the interim leader of the Green Party of Canada and she lives in Halifax. I caught up with her to ask her about her interview with Michael. Was Sitting at my desk and the reporter says. Michael Wayne Mugabe has to our interview request. and. You, the phone or he called you called us. We I ran down to the studio. Thinking what do I say what do I ask. You know talking to you right now. I can see myself sitting in that studio. Like you with headphones on. You, know Hello Mr mccray. I mean that's how it starts. For about twenty minutes we this discussion. About. Why he had murdered the woman he had murdered. You know. He says he wants to tell me but other murders. He has done, and he wants to admit that you know he has. I think it was sixteen in the interview. He said he'd kill. And I challenged him and say. Well. How do I know that you don't want to just have a reputation as the person who killed the most people in Canada? You know some kind of A. Weird bizarre reputation and he's well. Maybe I should describe for you. One of the murders that I committed that I've not been found guilty. It should are you Kinda? Catch your breath and the do I want to hear this. I said Okay and he does. He describes a murder. And? He said you can check that with the Halifax police. And I said well, of course we will. Those Tucker case was. and. He confirmed it The police confirmed it. I'm wondering. is your recollection that it should have raised enough issues with the police that they should have been full on. Well, you know I often wondered why I didn't hear. A number of cases were being closed. I wondered the with the details they had in the fact he was talking. That they weren't able to use the information, he had to close more cases and that we didn't hear about it. Michael. Wayne Gray was born in nineteen, sixty five in Collingwood Ontario. But as a child moved to argyle. Town near Yarmouth the southern tip of Nova Scotia. When he was fifteen. Michael is placed in the Shelbourne School for boys. was called a school, but today we would call it a youth correctional facility. Pretty much everyone in Nova Scotian knows about the Shelbourne School for boys. There's a long documented history of physical and sexual abuse. Thousands of former students have filed claims against the school. There have been several provincial reviews and hundreds of lawsuits. Peer Green was at Shelbourne nineteen eighty alongside Michael Gray. Filed a lawsuit against the province and his allegations have not been tested in court. Peer lives around the corner from me in Dartmouth. I Day? I got beat up by accounts. Are This guy grabbed me by the struck of my back of my shirt, or whatever I was wearing my pants? And certainly like a bowling ball down into the dorm and I walk my head off the radiator remember I had a bump on the head. You'RE GONNA learn the hard way or the easy way. It's been forty years. The peer still remembers the abuse. He says he suffered and witnessed like it was yesterday. And here I am. Two years or whatever of my life. Just, get assaulted left right and center. And not a thing I can do about it nothing you know. Defenseless Little Kid. I asked here about his memories of Michael Gray at Shelbourne. Why I remember about him most. He would never back down. If they beat him, he was he would laugh at the. He would say that all you got you know, or that does nothing to me. Or what like inundate do more? Michael Mick Gray would go on to kill a lot of people. So many people that he says he can't keep track of them all. Here's what we know from a grace court records. He is twenty years old when he kills Gale Tucker near Church point. He told CBC reporter Joanne Roberts that that was his first murder. But he also told her he was seventeen or eighteen when he first started killing. So who knows? Maybe there were previous murders. At Twenty, two in Saint John, New Brunswick during the robbery McGregor stabs his accomplice to death. He isn't charged with the murder, but he gets five years for robbery. In Nineteen ninety-one. Is In imprisoning Quebec and gets a pass for the three day Easter weekend. On Saturday night March thirtieth he goes to the campus a strip bar Montreal's gay village. And allows himself to be picked up. By fifty nine year old Robert Atalay. McGregor goes to escalate apartment and the to drink while watching TV. McGregor goes to the kitchen. Grabs a knife. He returns the asphalt. He's room smashes. A lamp is head, and then stabs him and repeatedly slash his throat killing. The next night, the gray returns to the campus and is picked up by forty-five-year-old. K Tan at TA. The to go to attaches apartment and watch a hockey game on TV. At, Ta makes a pass at Emigre. mcgrane turns him down and Etaples Asleep on the couch. For several hours, the gray sits in an armchair and watch his at Ta Sleep. McGrady eventually smashes a beer bottle over his head then stabs him to death. He returns to prison with no one the wiser for what he has done. In Nineteen, ninety-three Magrao's released from jail. He meets a girl. Tammy on Spring Garden Road in Halifax, and for the next four or five years the couple wander the country together. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, Ninety, seven Michael Mugabe now living in Moncton kills forty eight year old Joan Hicks by stabbing her and slashing her throat. He also kills Jones eleven year old daughter Nina. mccray is arrested for the killings of Joan and Nina hits. After his arrest, McGregor confessed and pleaded guilty to the six murders I just listed. But McGregor said he killed many more people. You'll recall. He told interviewer Joanne Roberts. He killed up to sixteen people. At another time. He told an investigator that he was so stoned for years at a time that he couldn't really be sure of how many people he killed. But mccray told police he wasn't going to confess to any more murders until they agreed to his conditions. Here are the conditions in his own words in January two thousand. There's some other murders that I'm gonNA confess to, but there's three conditions that I wanna have Matt I right. And conditions. Well one. I. To other people that were involved with me and I. WanNa. Make sure that they're not gonNA be charged. That's guaranteed has to be met others. One person was involved with me with one murder, and there's another one that was involved with me for maybe six or seven. I'm not having been charged with you. It's too, is that? This is the main one for me. There is a pretty big one. Is that I want to get some kind of treatment? I know that I'm going to be in prison for the rest of my life, and rightly so I agree with that, but I wanna I wanNA. Get some treatment I. Don't know what will help, but I know that the hasn't stopped I'm almost ready to do another one right now. And third I don't WanNa. Be charged with the rest of the murders. I don't want to spend the next five years allison from province to province I figure that. They can make deals with people like Clifford Olson Qala Malta people like that while they wanna noble these other murders. They made the deal with. The police will make no deals with gray. Instead various police investigators interview mccray get nowhere. They get no new information about any other murders. mcgilvray stops talking. In two thousand into the Royal Canadian Mounted Police assigns the Michael Gray. Case to a special unit of the RCMP called VICA class. The violent crime linkage analysis system. is now up to the by class unit to find out who else. Michael McGregor killed through the years. Who Were Michael? Grace Sixteen victims. How do you take down a criminal network hidden in the shadows? I tell him that I know that they're the ones who are running the largest CHARLEENA's abuse website on the dark nets, the journalists working to expose the darkest corners of the Internet. That's your playroom for. That's your baby's clothes. That's my house. The police who hunt down online predators do right inform of using. No, we didn't. We didn't make it, they might. Hunting moorhead. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Dr Brian Goldman! If you haven't heard my new podcast the dose, this is the perfect time to subscribe each week. We answer your most pressing health related questions and right now we know you're grappling with covid nineteen on the dose we bring in top experts to answer your questions about the corona virus, and post some of our own the latest evidence in a way that's easy to understand by subscribing to the dose. It's your guide to getting through this. Time you can find the dose wherever you get your podcasts. By Twenty nineteen. I had been researching. The GLYNOS soon story for five years. Going through court records. Finding people who knew Brinda and Glenn. Talking with lawyers. Piecing Together glints twenty year journey through the courts and in prison. I knew there were several possible suspects who were around the darkness stroll at the time of Brenda's murder. which if any of these suspects killed Brenda? I couldn't say. Then one morning as I always do I get up at six am. Start the coffee and fire up my laptop. There is a facebook message waiting for me. A former RCMP officer named Dave more. He wants to talk about Glenna soon. Follow, his story Dave tells me. Our facebook messages start awkwardly. Each of us holding back information from the other. But we talk every day sometimes for hours at a time. Typing over each other. He provides me with new information about glint case. And make some startling claims. So in January producer, Janice Evans and I fly to Tampa Florida and drive the Sarasota to meet day more in person. He just a few scattered clouds twenty. Account! Welcome to Stony Brook. Gated community. Lot Of. Apparently, modest houses. Despite the gate. Palm Trees. Florida. Story. Small for the low. C. C. Hello Dave more pay Tim Scott. How are you? Welcome to you. Shoes off. Voice. Don't be annoying. Sounds. Right. PTSD animals here two brothers. Blackie the call them. Emotional support animals. You deal with PTSD as a result of all this nonsense going through. And Anyway. We live here in a very modest home, and as you can see good friends, good people and that's it. David Moyes giant man built like refrigerators. He's maybe six two and three hundred and fifty pounds. He's got catcher mid hands. I wouldn't want to be on his wrong side. But, he's a joy to be with. Have a couple of glasses of wine? Play with the dogs get to know each other. The next day we get to work. Dave spins almost two entire days relating his story. On from Ottawa Ontario the capital. Open up in a large family seven kids. My father worked for Tomek energy of Canada and my mom was a systems analyst for revenue. Canada and I went on to business school, and that's where I learned software development software design the early stuff. Was At thirty two bidding, Christian. Software that I was working on for national security. And then the RCMP came along and said we need people like you. You're at the top of the curve. They hand selected a group of people to move the organization forward. They realized it was stuck in the fifties, and they were bringing in innovation, so that was a sales pitch was given. Dave went to basic training in Regina. Then in nineteen, eighty six was assigned to detachment near Summerside on Prince Edward Island They were screaming at the time. The quote was intelligence based organization by means. You're hiring intelligent people to do the job, but then when you get in the field, squash it like a bug. I ran into difficulty right from the beginning. There's an old expression follows the RCMP. There's the right way of doing things the wrong way of doing things then there's the copd way of doing things. What happened today? More on Pe-. I is a long and complex story. The Short version has he tells it is this? Day Butts heads with his superiors and transferred to Nova Scotia. He gets bounced around from one detachment to another and then in two thousand. He's assigned to the by Class Unit in Halifax. Fiberglass was created as a result of the Paul Bernardo case. Paul Bernardo was a serial rapist, and then a serial murderer whose crime spanned across Ontario in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties. He was assisted in three murders by his girlfriend, who then became his wife Karla Homolka. A review by the Ontario government found that the arrests were delayed, and the tax had continued basically because the police turf wars. Details of the investigations were not being shared between different police agencies. As a result, the RCMP created a computer database called the violent crime linkage analysis system VI- class for short. Here's how class works. Whenever a violent crime. A rape or murder happens the investigating police agency notes all the known details of the crime. The scene of the crime, the method of attack, the kind of weapon, the victim's age, race, hair, colour, and characteristics of the suspect or person accused if they're known. The idea is that if a crime occurs in one part of the country, the evidence from that crime can be matched to the evidence from other similar crimes in other parts of the country. The RCMP trains class analysts to interpret the data. These investigators are part psychological profile. Hours Park computer experts. That, was Dave Moore's job and he was the Vai class officer who is assigned to the Michael McGrady file. It was Dave's job to find McGrady's other victims. I flow chart it. Every missing and murdered person across North America. Every single person. Then, once I geographic, put them on a timescale and the geographic scale. I then looked for potential murderers because it was a needle in the haystack with Michael McRae. He doesn't conform to any of the criteria that classes based on vai classes based on the narrowing down of circumstances with regard a pattern behavior. This guy's exception to the rule he has victimology is all over the place. He kills little girls, and he kills women, and he kills Grannies, and he kills men and kills gays. So there's no. You can't put a thumb on him. He's all over the map geographically because he is a traveler and. The vagabond, if you want to call them that or a drifter, you have to look across north. America so. That's a wide spectrum. And so by plotting the information across`ha flow chart it showed a fifteen year period in which I could place him incarcerated at the beginning. And incarcerated at the end, everything in between was wide open. So then you go, okay, I'm having a lot of difficulty, but one of the main consistencies in his murderers was that he killed him right where they stood. There was no attempt to camouflage and. In that decision to look at that, you also stretch yourself from behavioral point of view is this person is running and he's very smart. This guy's not a dummy. Dummy is going to get caught. This guy knows well enough to kill somebody and hide it, but not take away the body. But there is also other patterns of behavior. He didn't stick around after he committed murders. He would always leave with twenty four forty eight hours seventy two hours. P. was gone. You have to put him at the murder. This was very difficult for me because he's a traveler across the country over a fifteen year period with probably seven hundred murders across North America. So. The volume of information was overwhelming. So I looked to say okay. How can I narrow this down? So the only thing I could come up with. was. If. This guy's on welfare. He's got to pick up a welfare check. And he's got to physically be where the welfare check is so therefore in order to. Pick up the welfare check. He's got to present ID. He can't present false I d. it's gotta be his name through the government auspices of the welfare, so I was able to determine. At any given point in time when he received the check that he was in a given town. I couldn't say four hours later that he was there and I couldn't say four hours before, but I could tell you that at noon when he cashed it at the at the pay, check place that he presented the same idea that he did at. At government offices and then I put him on the chart. By studying McGrady's movements and the victimology Dave Moore's convinced that he has discovered several of McGrady's other victims. is a man killed in a cafe bathroom in Vancouver. Dave tells me he thinks. One of the thirteen murders in the spokane Washington. Area Attributed to serial killer Robert Lee, Yates was actually committed by McGregor. Dave also tells me that he thinks great killed a third man in Montreal during that weekend in Nineteen ninety-one. Dave keep studying McGregor. It even starts corresponding with him in prison. GRAYSON's Dave quotes from the Bible. and Dave response with other Bible quotes in hope of getting inside McGrady's head. David and buys the same Bible with has so the versus are the same. And then. Dave expanses research by doing one more thing. I thought it's possible. Somebody is wrongfully convicted for murder that he committed. Any community wants to clean up this crime. It's terrorizing the neighborhood, so there's a potential for the wrong person being in because of political pressures. Put on the Police Department to solve this crime quickly. And in doing so is the human, air. So I said No. I want to also input all the solve murders across North America. So you're looking for somebody who's using a knife. Someone who's doing a very violent attack. David includes in his search those at high risk of being victims of islands. Sex Workers. So what happened was I put that Indivi- class. And Brenda ways, murder came out. So along with all the murders across North America Day more discovers a possible murder committed by Michael Gray in his own backyard. The problem is he? Says the RCMP's thanks division told him he isn't supposed to be looking into solved case. And, this case has been solved. Glint soon has now been in jail for five years. But Dave is determined. He sets to work reinvestigating the BRINDA way murder. The? Offender behavior in the case of Brenda. Way was so explosive so frenzied an attack. Normally there's organized and disorganized murders. Typically, somebody who does a murder for the first time is disorganized. They don't know what they're doing. It happened and then they panic. How am I gonNA cover this? They don't they step in the blood. They don't know you know. They have the knife in their hand with fingerprints on it. When you get a season murderer, he covers all the bases so in other words. He didn't step in the blood trail. He's not leaving shoeprint. He's of the mind that he's going to take. This person out is going to be clean and even if there was blood splatter on his clothes, you're not going to know. He's not going to dispose of those clothing on the site of the murder. So what what? My visual was on the away murdered that it was frenzied attack, a gruesome frenzied attack, and not the first time. Whoever did this has murdered somebody. Clearly to me. That was somebody who's done multiple murders. I believe that the left shoe and the panties were taken by the killer in this case, but. Shoe, you certainly wear shoe. You'RE NOT GONNA walk around one shoe on. It's a logical unless you've been chased out somewhere or something happens so from that perspective. It told me it was an organized killer, not a disorganized killer. The main thing with Michael mccray he killed and drop them where they were. Now. Other. Police officers have gone to hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of expense with Mr Mugabe. Who never got it right, but this guy? To me, they were untrained and they should have known better, and it should have relied on people that actually knew him. Even if they had taken the time to read his psychiatric reports, which are extensive volumes reports, you'd get a real good idea what this guy's like. He's not interested in being deceptive in hiding bodies and digging, a grave and shoveling drops them where he sees them. You piss me off your debt. It's that simple and they'll be. No distortion reports that the police department that he's been harassing me that he's attempted to hurt me or he's previously assaulted me. That's not going to happen with Michael Emigre it's there's GonNa. Be. None of that is just going to be boom I've decided. Is urges come across. Me pissed me off your debt. Totally different mentality. Dave more time with Lynn his fellow VI- class worker in New Brunswick about the Brinda way murder. Well. Michael McGee Gray. If I recall here, IT WASN'T A. Query was in an overnight investigation. Dave was always. Meticulous did great work. WITH RESPECT TO BRENDA WAY! Up, as. A victim offi potential crime. That mcgary could have committed. Based on the science of via glass, and they've had asked me to check this. If it made sense and I did I. Recall checking the queries the box, is he? He did the cells. And I found it was very. Credible very well done. and. Extremely, likely that MMA gray could have committed that murder. I said you know what you're. You're bang on. It's actually bang on. Dave uses the class system to come up with Michael Matt Gray as the potential murder of Brenda way. But that isn't enough. A computer database isn't evidence. So Dave investigates further. So the way it worked was even though the RCMP given me the task to solve these murders, it would seem that. I had to do it on my own time. I was not getting. There was one unit vehicle. The boss kept at the whole time. The staff never got use of it, and so they're saying do this work, but we're GONNA. Going my private car in a Cesspool of criminals to conduct interviews and people in on I, don't like to dry personal vehicle because there might track it and I was dumbfounded that okay. What are you doing this for amusement? Are you not expecting me to find results out of this? So I whatever I'm entitled to my lunch I go. Get, the cargo into Dartmouth do one interview per launch our notebook on each one. Dave works on reinvestigating the Brenda way murder and connecting it back to Michael McGrath. He has several hundred entries in the vai class computer system. He has notebooks full interviews with witnesses which he keeps in a locked cabinet in his office. He has a four foot by three foot flow chart tracking grays movements on his office wall. The chart has an onion skin overlay which shows when and where mccray cashed his welfare checks. Meanwhile. He is continuing to write letters to grey exchanging Bible verses with. He writes them a great five times. More Gray writes back three times. Davis convinced that Glenna soon did not kill Brenda way. And that Michael Gray did. Dave says the Glenn Soon is an innocent man sitting in prison for a crime. He did not commit. He brings his theories to his boss. So I brought to the attention of my direct supervisor. Who is Ken Bradley of the Halifax Regional Police and he went ballistic on me. Who Do you think you are and he's my direct supervisor. He is checking my work on a weekly basis to make sure that everything is done according to what they propose it to be. and He's also been my supervisor. Right from the beginning, so he knows my work anyway. Getting back to the via class relative to Brenda way I found immediately a pushback if it's good enough for the supreme. Court candidates fucking good enough for me. From a police personnel perspective. There's nothing wrong with that. He's an emotional guy. I get that, but things don't add up for me. So I'm just GONNA, continue. I understand your position again but I think differently than you. There are two things you need to know here. I howl facts is the only municipality in the country that has what's known as a blended police force. The Halifax Regional Police Department patrols in the urban area. while. The RCMP works in the suburban and rural areas. But the major, Crime Investigation Unit. has both Halifax PD and RCMP members in it. And, so does the by class unit. So, Dave, Moore was an rcmp officer, but his boss can Bradley worked for the Halifax Police. Here's the second thing you need to know. Back, in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, six, after Brinda way was killed. Kin Bradley worked on the investigation into murder. And now nine years later. He's Dave Moore's boss. When Davis telling him, the wrong man was convicted. Did. Did you know that time that he was involved in the original investigation burned away murder Yup. He told me that he told me right from the onset. I believe he was the ident- processing officer. The question is did it cloud his judgment going forward in being able to do his job effectively invite class unit and I went to chief Frank Beasley and said I have a problem. I'm being intimidated by this guy. Let me. Stop you right there. You went to Prank Beasley the chief of the health. Ex Police win. was that so the order of pecking was I went to Dick Hutchings, who's the unit commander? And he also was of negative predisposition on this then I waited for him to go on holidays, and I went to Andy Latham. WHO's in charge of the major crime section Halifax and what I basically was looking for with? Andy, I explained him what was going on I explained the Inter office politics and I was really wanting him to just upstairs. I wanted him to move me upstairs. Or at the very least change who I was reporting to so when you say, move you upstairs, you wanted to be moved out of ICU class into major crimes correct. Let's recap. As Dave mortels it in two thousand and four. He takes his suspicions. That Glenis soon is in a scent of the murder of Brenda way to his boss invite Class Ken Bradley, who was involved in the original murder investigation that led to Glenn soons conviction. Bradley Toes Mortar Forget it. Glint soon is guilty. Next Dave More Ghost Dick. Hutchings, who is the commander of the Halifax class year. Hutchins also tells more to drop the matter. Dave then talks to the chief of police in Halifax Frank. Beasley to tell Beasley that one of his cops Ken Radley has a conflict of interest. Beasley tells him he can't do anything about it. I was getting too much friction from those people in lieu of the fact that the task me to do this investigation and basically were obstructing my investigation. Next Day more goes to Andy Latham. Charge a major crime for the RCMP in Halifax. and asked for a transfer, so he can investigate the Brinda way murder. Lathem says look. You're stepping on Halifax police toes, and there's a lot of department politics going on. Late them wants to help. Late them says bring me some hard evidence and if you can do that. I'll get you transferred to major crime, so you can keep investigating the Brenda way. That conversation with Andy Latham happens on a Friday in March of two, thousand and four. The next day Dave goes on vacation for two weeks. When I came back from my holidays, my transfer notice was on the front doorstep to my house. It was underneath the Matt was wet damp from somebody had left it there. And I didn't know what was going on. I was to report immediately at nine o'clock in the morning. At nine thirty, whatever was in the meantime I went into the via classier. And the, so the first thing that happened was my my past work couldn't get in the door and I couldn't get him office and gone. Okay, the only thing that was the secretary's desk was a box of some personal belongings. I was kicked out of the unit. With. No advance notice Dave more comes back from vacation and finds that he's been transferred out of my class. He's been moved to the RCMP's gambling which. He makes another discovery. Everything is missing from his office. Years, worth of research? Interview notes his flow chart tracking the grades movements. All. Gone. They had stripped out all of my war room flow charts this big chart with the fifteen year period on at the overlay onion skin overlay was missing. I had noted that the lock was busted off of the cabinet that I kept all of the. Written documents, and so I was living I was absolutely livid. The bottom file cabinet drawer had ten notebooks. Version of notebook for every person I interviewed, every person had an individual notebook. On top of that there were psychiatric reports on the gray. I had other suspects that I also had psychiatric reports on. Had a copy of the Moncton file the entire file, not just what was on the system, but the information. There was a lot to that file that didn't understand. I needed to have a closer look. All of that was gone. All of the corroborating documents that I had obtained from Correctional Services Psychiatric reports from his school Michael. School so all of that was missing. That's not all day. More gets another class analyst to look on the computer system. That is to look at the hundreds of files. Dave put on the system about Michael McGregor. Co worker care and Brueghel was there. I went over to her office and I said go in. Let me see what's in there, so she she was already on the system. Shit already gained access with all their passwords, whatever and I went to look at my files and Dobbin deleted. I was just told by the secretary gotta be an Inspector Tanner's office by Thirties. Inspector Tanner is Dan. Tanner with the criminal. Investigative Bureau of the RCMP and how fax? I said to him I. Don't give a shit, but you do with me. I really don't care. But there's an innocent man in prison. What are you GonNa do about that? And I said glance soon as an innocent person. You know it. I know it and the documents stolen from my office proven. Now are you going to do anything about it? And his response was test test test. And if you know that man, that expression is known across, Canada, he says. Test Test Test. No one gives a shit about GLENIS. Oh? Coming up, on dead wrong. I can tell you right now. I knew everything about this case. You think for a freaking second. If I knew the RCMP destroyed evidence that I would be shouting from the rooftops I, knew had no idea zero. But today the RCMP's says there was no malicious intent. If anything has been done, it has not been intentional, or it was a mistake, but there has been no intention for RCMP in any way to try to cover up. Claims on behalf of the RCMP that any evidence destruction was innocent or done in good faith, or not for the purpose of obstructing justice. Rings Hollow Rings Hollow understates. Dead Wrong is written and produced by Janet Evans, Nancy, Hunter and me Tim Bosquet. Sound Design by Evan Kelly. Shambhu yen provided transcripts. Our digital. Producer is emily canal. Special thanks to Sarah Melton. Chris Oak is our story editor. The senior producer of CBC podcasts his, Tanya Springer And our executive producer is our of Noorani. For discussion posts pictures from the case and more find us on facebook and twitter at uncover CBC. We're also on INSTAGRAM AT CBC podcast. For more CBC original podcasts go to CBC DOT CA slash original podcasts.
June 24: Charges dropped
"The theatres have closed, but the show look on, play me. PODCAST is thrilled to present a new series. The show must go on featuring provocative productions from some of North America's most acclaimed creators for the stage. Sit back and experience everything from chilling thrillers to Gut wrenching dramas to arriver in comedies each month experience, the exhilaration of theatre from the comfort of your own home. Plenty available wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello I'm Carol off and I'm Chris. Bowden this is as it happens the podcast edition. Tonight charges dropped chief Alan. Adam tells us. He never thought the images of his violent arrest by the RCMP be seen around the world, but now that they have he's hoping they've open. Some is word processing the head of a North American scrabble. Group says offensive slurs should be banned from competition, but it's a position that hasn't necessarily earned him points with. With players hair parent. It's reopening day for hairdressers in Toronto Reach One Barber shop owner who tells us he's seeing some freaky things on his customers heads, but that's all right. They're all making the cut today. The RCMP commissioners answers about systemic racism in the forest are leading to a lot of questions, including whether she's the right person to lead the force. Friends in high places, a US prosecutor testifies that convicted felon. Roger Stone Got Special Treatment in the courts, and the word to do so came straight from the top and fighting trim, an angry, Australian curmudgeon, took get off my lawn past the point of yelling from his porch because he's a crocodile, so he attacked the lawnmower and lost a couple of teeth in the process as it happens, the Wednesday edition radio that knows you can't turn back the clock. Chief Alan Adam is no longer facing criminal charges. The elbert first nations leader was charged in March after RCMP officers violently arrested him. When news of the incident became public a few weeks ago, many people including the prime minister were shocked by what the police had done. A DASH CAM video recorded by the RCMP shows an officer tackling chief Adam. He punches him and puts him in a chokehold leaving his face bloodied. Today chief Adam was cleared of any wrongdoing. The officers are under investigation by Alberta's police watchdog. We reached chief Alan. Adam in Fort. mcmurray Alberta. Keith Adam. How did it feel to hear the judge? Throw out these charges against you. Felt really good in you know it's. The fact that justice has been served because. My wife and knew that the charges that were put against us were I think many people have seen the video of your arrest and certainly have seen the photos. Of your face, that's it's hard to recognize you as the same person you are today. Why did you decide that you wanted people to see that? Why did you make that? Image public? You know when I. When I was release the morning in question of March ten. When I was given my phone back. My first intentions were to. Take a picture of my face so I would never forget. Of what had happened to me at the hands of Your C., n. p.. Not knowing that pitcher waste going to be broadcast nationally and worldwide and giving that kind of attention interest given. But you didn't immediately put that out. You didn't tell people you'd let others know what had happened to you immediately. Why did you delay the time that to actually put out publicly? The reason why we did that was because I sat down and we've talked over with my wife and. You know the time. Of the. Much dependent. The pandemic was called on March twelve If I was to bring this out in the public, there would be public tension going, and there would be Mash Pesto all over, and while we have pandemic bruin that with this escalated their pandemic further than worth went off so I decided. With my wife that we would only bring this out after the pandemic comes down. The video that the RCMP eventually released the. Dash Cam video that they said. I showed nothing that they said the response to the incident had been reasonable, but then what we see in that were begins is that you appears are moving a baby seat of position so you? You and your wife can give a ride home to somebody else. You're trying to find out what the problem is. Did you have any expectation at that moment? That, it would end with you. The bruising you took on the parking lot grounds there eleven minutes later. Roy Forget that was going to happen. We were. All happy, we're going home. We were full of smile. I wasn't going to harm anybody in. My wife wasn't going to harm anybody. In all we have to do just take a fifteen minute. Ride from the Casino would have been home eleven minutes later, always being thrown inside her, she panel beaten up in Bruce and this over the fact that your license plate had expired this is that something you would be at three hundred ten dollar ticket? Is that right? Correct, that's more legal representative tells me. He says it's a three hundred dollar ten tickets. Unfortunate to the idea of their misconduct, they pick a fight with cheap Adam and Cheap item is not going to stand by and let Logano. Station flex their muscle in regards to how they treat people in public because. My wife always tells me straight out, and my mom always told me this when I was going up. Down up what you believe in always tell the truth. The moment when it seems to escalate is when they are getting pretty rough with your wife. Is that the moment when you felt that you? You just got to stand up. Was the moment to stand up because you know, his march was good, the vehicle and facing the wondering. What led up to placing my wife under I? CanNot Understand. And you tell them you're on the ground. Use You tell them I am the chief of the ATHABASCA Chippewa and first nation. A number of people have remarked. If you were saying I am the mayor of Edmonton that things would have been different. Do you think that's true? This week. Always the prime minister of Canada better. Wouldn't be hitting me. That's probably true, but do you think the context? This is what people need to understand what you have been trying to explain this to understand what happened can't be seen in isolation of what happens to indigenous people in this country. Notes Saturday in Canada. What a brighter future coming ahead! Because now that all these things are before us. It's best not let it go away. Don't sweep it under the rug. Don't let it that's on the show. Let's deal with it. Only way we could deal with systemic racism. There's to head on and get the understand what it really means. The commissioner of the CFP Brenda Lucky the House of Commons hearing she said there is systemic racism and the RCMP but yesterday. When she was asked to give an example of it in the forces, she couldn't really come up with an answer. What does that say to you? Well pose move about she was misinform and she doesn't really understand what she is dealing with those commissioner. The other thing you learned today was that the officer who tackled you to the ground who arrives and pushes you to the ground there and the rest? You was already facing charges related to another incident that took place last August. What do you think should happen to that officer now? Dot Question that question has to be answered by superintendent. dicks, who is his commanding officer and? GonNa, go right to the commissioner of Berta, and if you hear the deputy commissioner, saying that there's no systemic racism better well, then we gotTA program there, too, so don't only focus the attention, the commissioner of the other champion Kinda but what about the remarks of the Deputy Commissioner of nature of Berta, which protects. Like the one that assaulted me, what do you want people to learn? What do you want Canadians to understand from what happened to you? What all want. Canadians to understand. IS THAT WE AS ABORIGINAL PEOPLE? We want to be treated like civilized people. We feed our family. We go to work. We work hard. Some of our people were nonstop every day. We want to be accepted into Canada the way we accepted the Europeans into Canada society itself. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you. Thank you bye-bye! Alan Adam is the chief of the ATHABASCA Chippewa first. Nation he was in Fort mcmurray. You can find that interview and more on this story on our website. CBC DOT CA Slash H. Canada's top cop seems to need some help answering questions about racism in her force. Earlier this month Brenda lucky. The commissioner of the RCMP told the Globe and mail quote. We don't have systemic racism a couple of days later she swallowed those words, but not before there were calls for her to resign. Last, Night Commissioner lucky was testifying before a House of Commons. Committee when Liberal MP Greg Fergus astor to clarify whether systemic racism exists in the RCMP. Yes there's absolutely systemic racism I can give you a couple of examples that we found over the years for example We have a physical abilities a requirement evaluation. It's an obstacle course in their There's a six foot, Matt and that you have to do a broad jump. And when we put the lands on it and review that physical requirements test evidence told us that the average person can broad jump their height. So of course, how many six foot people do we hire and there are people in all different cultures that may not be six feet including. There's not a lot of women that are six feet tall That would not be able to get through that that type of test be stemming discrimination, but I'm trying to think of systemic racism. in our that we have some questions for example in our aptitude test, and I might refer Gail because that his gaels specialty in the HR world, because a lot of it has been been brought out in our recruiting process so. I'll ask gail she can. I was RCMP Commissioner Brenda lucky, handing off a question to the force's chief human resources officer. And EP P.. Charlie Angus was one of the members on the committee last night. We reached Mr Angus in Cobalt Ontario. This Django is when you heard. Commissioner, Lucky. Give that answer last night. What did you make of it? I was very let down by Commissioner. Lucky response This isn't time of great urgency in Canada. We are all of us. racialist non-racial. Is Canadians coming to terms with you know numerous examples of really sh- shocking abuse. At the hands of police and we want to be reassured that the police understand what they're dealing with so to be told that the solution to systemic racism is to fix an obstacle course to make it easier for people who born shorter That's not the issue the issue is why is it that indigenous people make up just over four percent of the population yet represent thirty six percent of the fatalities at the hands of the RCMP in. Why is it that we have multiple multiple cases of horrific? Horrific accusations of mistreatment of women in Nunavut the Strip searched and tied naked to chairs by police officials when they are. The victims of women are the victims of sexual crimes. These are the systemic issues that we need answers to these. These are things that we have heard. They've been reported as there's so many other examples. Why do you think the commissioners on example of systemic racism was that it was difficult for short people to get into the forces. What do you think she doesn't know or was she? Trying not to say something. I not sure why she would've seen. That would have been the appropriate response. We have had on her watch. Multiple reports put on her desk from the civilian complaint review, commission and none of those reports under the RCMP in federal rules could be made public until she comments and she hasn't commented on any of them. One of those is the Colton blue. She case I mean. This was an international story What happened with our handling of that requires an answer. The report sitting on her desk. She's got another report. That's seven years old. Please doing the heavy militarized response. First nation protests in New Brunswick. There's been no response to these reports. It's really essential that the MP reassure indigenous Canadians that they're not military occupying force. If you get pulled over or asked to step out of your vehicle and Albert, you're not get sucker punched. We know there are many many good officers we know there are many racial officers working, but we need to know that at the top when these issues are are looked at. They're going to be looked at it a lens. That will say yeah. We have a big problem here. Look at these numbers. These numbers represent deeper problems and we're going to answer that and we did not hear that from Commissioner Lucky, nor did we hear it from Minister Blair. We just heard from chief Adam who was? Today found out that he not going to be charged after he was had. Suffered a kind of major, take down in a in a parking lot in March and He describes what he went to and went. Indigenous people are going shoot. They're these kinds of examples. You mentioned also that the also the missing and murdered into women and girls report there are so many things could point to so I'm just wondering if there's if the commissioner gave any sense of why she's reluctant to refer to things that have happened just in the past couple of weeks. Yeah I think it would have been much better if we'd heard some concrete responses and same minister Bill Blair. When he spoke when he was asked, what systemic racism was he? He actually said it was quote. A deficiency in the system, the results in different outcomes for different people. I mean I. How how would you describe that? As but if the bureaucratic whitewash I mean in Toronto. Minister Blair and I I mean. I really liked Minister Blair, but he was a police chief famous for Cardi, and so you have black people in Toronto representing eight percent of the population you, they're involved in thirty percent of the physical confrontations with police and seventy percent of the fatal shootings at the hands of police, so what we need to hear from the Commissioner or from the minister is that when we look at these statistics, we see that racial is people are. Are on the receiving end of the wrong kind of policing in. It's the same with mental health crisis that you know. We've had four horrific cases of of supposed- wellness checks where it racial is. People have ended up dead or the victims of violence You know when the Commissioner was asked about these issues. She said that you know in the middle of the night Someone's got a knife. You don't WanNa mental health worker going there. You want the police. Well I'm a white guy. The please come to my house in. In the middle of the night, I am not afraid that I'm going to end up dead, but young indigenous woman Shanteau more probably saw them coming to your door very different way and she ended up dead. So these are the things that we have to recognize that we know how to fix them. Know how to address them. You mentioned Shantelle more in new, Brunswick and just a little more than a week later, Rodney Levi shot dead by police in all I think six indigenous people killed by police in Canada since April. They say they're afraid. There's a genuine fear within the indigenous community in Canada. What can or should somebody say to reassure them? I think it's really important that we understand the frame that they've come from and you know commissioner lucky spoke a lot about the blanket. Exercise at Cairo, doesn't. It's a good exercise for school kids? I don't know if it helps police officers. When know I spoke to a young indigenous woman and Thunder Bay where there have been a lot of problems with the police and she said to me listen. In Our community, the police are the ones that came and took our children away from us. That was their historic role, so we've always been afraid of them. And that leads to difficult issues, but now we're seeing the people are being killed or sucker punched or beaten up. There is a deeper systemic problem that I want racialist and indigenous Canadians who some many who joined the force, because they want to serve their communities to know that they will get fair treatment and when a crisis happens. And the reports on the Commissioner's desk she will look at that and she will report it back to the public with the agency that requires, and that's you know. The buck stops with the commissioner on these issues. Should resign. I don't want to prejudge anything we. We are GONNA have a summer of hearings. My colleague Jack Harris called for summer of hearings. There's a number of witnesses going to be brought forward but I. Certainly think that the public is expecting results his time and not just talk. Joining us I appreciate speaking here. Thank you, thank you so much. Charlie Angus is an MVP MP. We reached him in Cobalt Ontario will request interviews with both. RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucky and public safety minister. Bill Blair neither was available. Today in Toronto, a lot of long-awaited cuts were made to the unruly mobs of hair on the heads of the many people who lined up for haircuts. Toronto is one of the last places in candidate to open up its barber and hair salons. Peter Cameras owns and operates one of those barbershops. He reopened his today and we reached him between cuts at his shop in Toronto. Hi Peter how you doing. I'm okay. How are you? Thank you got the Greek music blasting here in the store all having a great time back to be back. How busy have you been today? well, let me let me tell you. I posted online on all my platforms I was going to open at eight thirty on Instagram, we had a real time town down to the relaunch. I was so excited it was like going back to you. Know your first day of school. And I got here at seven in the morning, and there was all five guys in the parking lot waiting for me. Already, reading seven thirty in the morning, yeah, they were just excited to get their haircut because I saw I saw a lot of hockey here Is this morning. So. HOW SHAGGY! Where are your customers? Shaggy is not even the word for it was. It was a little bit scary I thought. I thought it was. Man and whole bunch of you know this guy is coming out of the car. I thought it was in the time-warp warp per second. Describe some of the worst ones you saw had some fluffy hair. You saw come in your shop. I don't even think I could put a word or label on it, but the first one was the guy that you know He gave in because his wife really wanted his haircut. And she cut one side really really short, and then he had like You know how Mr Spock looks like with a bowl cut. We'll just put magic that at the reverse on the back of his neck, but like two inches than should be. So, so yeah, it was some freaky that I never thought I'd see today, but I did so you see these these? Do It yourself haircuts. From them, and some other guys just went natural and Free Willy, and they just let their whole grow, and yeah, it's You know it's a good thing. I was working out during my off time to keep my hands moving and all that otherwise I would have been tired cutting through. Charge everyone by the pounds a day. Now so for you yourself as it going to be back in the shop. Oh, it's great i. mean you know I waiting for so long to Come back to the store to see all the all the guests that have been coming in your friends. Clients You know it's a real commodity here. It's a it's a brotherhood here. It's almost like a little clubhouse like the little rascals just to see everybody my daughter. She was so sized like, but but I'm GonNa Miss you today I'm like I'm GonNa. Miss you, too sweetheart. Sweetheart because you know, I'm I'm from the mold, so my father is that we were just born to work, so I really don't take a holiday, so it was really weird for me to be off for like three months not to say that there was anything wrong with it, but you know it. It was great. I mean my house. Never Cleaner. I've got tomatoes now. That are a pretty much up to my shoulders. Right now got a great tan, so, but it was really great to be back at the at the shop now. I understand that this ever really old fashioned barber shop that your father opened in one thousand nine hundred eighties. It's a real man cave. Yes a man cave shrine. It's a museum you name it. I have a have a fifty year old Barbara poll. Right that's still working. I've got the red white and blue stripes, and then I've added Toronto Maple Leaf logos onto it. people come in. They take a picture with the poll. You know I've got the goal from the gardens turnstile. Players have come in here. They signed a law life the Stanley Cup. Trophy in here so it's a real special place. Suny say you know those those mullets. Hockey haircuts that you that you're seeing now. You know that firsthand all that's yeah. That's for sure I mean. That's yeah. A. Lot of beaver tails man's scarf. You name it, but now everybody's and it's funny, too. Because a lot of people you know. They've got a tan on their face. And now it's cut the back of their head, and now they've got a white patch on their. Okay, so, are they wearing masks? No. No no most guys. They're not wearing my coming in there there. Okay? What I've I've mentioned to people I. Go if you like I have. I have the welder shield. Food Service Mass but just sits on my Chin and and covers my mouth and nose, but no most most people they've they're. They're not They're not worried about that and I also offer single use tapes to people if they'd like. No. Everyone's I think everyone's just excited to be able to cut their hair. You know they're. They're leaving here with a smile from year to year. See you wearing a mask and they're not wearing a mask. No is that. Where are you at all? No, You don't you don't worry that you might get something. Well more than I would worry during flu, season or anything like that, but I do have precautions I mean. If I do have listened outside story. If you will have symptoms related to see nineteen, please do not come to the store you so your doctor, and for the like the invisible symptoms will that mean that could be anywhere could get that if I'm going to no frills or you know any grocery store. The gas station notes. Life is to be live not to be afraid and just to hide. And so you've been doing. You've not only cut hair. You've been repairing bad diy jobs and so. Happy to know that their spouses and their kids aren't going to be cutting their hair anymore. I've never seen guys more happier than than I. Have Today that they know that I've been open The phone has been ringing off the hook. I have not had time to answer. The phone I've had a lineup out the door all day today, so it's it's really great and again I'm so happy to be able to help out my fellow brothers there well. Let's get back to work. I. Know You've got lots of people waiting to have a better demands on you than I do so Peter. Thanks for speaking with us. Thank you so much. I appreciate it bye of I. Peter Cameras is the owner and operator of Peters Barbershop in Toronto, and that's where we reached him. Now in most barbershops because of masks, you might have to wait a while for a fancy barber. Shave with the hot towel and everything, but at one time public shaving was common at least for one guy. One Time Jerry Harley a Barbara from medway England in August of Nineteen eighty-four Mr Harley shaved two hundred and thirty five men in one hour, using a straight razor, a terrific and for his customers, terrifying achievement Michael and rates spoke with Jerry Harley about his success. Mr Highly Congratulations. Oh well, that's a third. Day I have to ask. Where did you find two hundred thirty five bearded volunteers for you speed shave. Difficult down here, we had a festival, cricket and Off Me to go on a as a as a cab is over in the lunch. And House the old is. We did the line to two hundred, thirty, five to the. People Not to be shy. Had already notes. I've that I before we had a big long line and twenty Chaz. In HR. And then as I went down the line. The, I equal out the chair, the next one down the law and in. Many tell the other end of that free beer. Office white these. Cases to have ever ever shy else that we have to get a free pair I would think so yeah, but wasn't a little tricky I. Mean how? How fast would you have to go to do that many one hour? Roughly about. Twenty four miles an hour. Thanks round the face. Aren't they won't go away. But that was that was a broker was compensating. So played for volunteers I think we was show what he come and jumps. I would hate to have been the guy the two hundred and thirty fifth guy because you might have been tired out to. Really. Just before Christmas. Shy a lot of people with a safety razor. And No I. Two Thousand Fifty two. Then always all in one our. You know I wasn't really good sized. There's only about two point two seconds. But the people you're shaving, I take it half to sit perfectly, still particularly, renewing sort of under the nose and the throat and so on. site. From our archives that was Michael, enright, speaking with Jerry Harley in Nineteen eighty-four Mr Harley had just shaved, extremely brave two hundred and thirty five men in an hour in an attempt to make a world record. Fact. He smashed pretty much. Every billboard and streaming record that matters it has already been streamed more than a billion times. People still to this day. Point to this is the moment everything changed, but whether you agree with those claims are not. This podcast isn't really about him. either. You're not an astute businessman, or you're inherently racist when it comes to black music and his country, this is not a drake podcast available now on, CBC, listen or wherever you get your podcasts. The theatres have closed, but the show look on, play me. PODCAST thrilled to present a new series. The show must go on featuring provocative productions from some of North America's most acclaimed creators for the stage. Sit back and experience everything from chilling thrillers to Gut. Wrenching dramas to reverend comedies each month experienced the exhilaration theater from the comfort of your own home, claiming available wherever you get your podcasts. The word may be technically acceptable on a scrabble board, but that doesn't make it acceptable as first reported by the Globe and Mail. The competitive scrabble community is having a reckoning on how to deal with offensive words on the board. Reasonably the head of North America's scrabble players association put a question to his members. If some words are so offensive that to say them out loud would be hateful in the real world. Why should they be valid words on a scrabble board? John Q. is the CEO of the North American scrabble Players Association. When he kicked off this discussion with his members about offensive words, he got a flood of responses, not all of them positive. We reached John Chew in Toronto. John how are people reacting to your call for a discussion about racial slurs and the SCRABBLE board? Depends on who you mean by people. If you're talking about people who are within the scrabble playing community, they're pretty evenly split as to whether or not, we should remove the N. word, or all slurs from our lexicon, or just keep playing with him if you talk about people that are outside of our competitive linking entity. They're saying why. Why is this even? Even a debate. Mind you there a lot of people within our community who who are also saying. Why is this even a debate? But they're talking a- about it from the other side. Okay, so both wise, even a debate. Those are saying that's irrelevant. Don't don't worry about it and those who are thinking. How do you even have these words and scrabble? Yeah both both sides think it's ridiculous to even be arguing about it, because the answer is so clear, and yet it could be clearly one thing or clearly the opposite. Okay for I'm an outsider's I'll say that I've seen the list of the the words I this is like you couldn't have a more complete compilation of every racist sexist misogynist, homophobic slur in the English language. How many words are in question here? I think it's the two hundred thirty eight words. If I recall correctly, we decide whether their offensive because there are word like not sure if I can say the word Fart on CBC, but we call the PU word, if it's a word that we can't say because it's just vulgar or rude, or if it's a word that's actually been coined in order to foster hatred the words that we can't talk about the. We can't even pronounce when we're talking about them, and it's those words that we really want to get rid of. And so just to be clear this these are words that are not in the this. This is not the scrabble game that people are playing at the cottage. This is scrambled. It's for competition, right. This is competitive scrabble. We're talking about so this means that if you become a serious scrabble player, typically, because nobody in your family will play with you anymore, because you know all the words then you use what's called. The NASA wordlessly edited updated every two years. It has all the words up to fifteen letters including all of the offense ones. We're talking about, do we? We want to keep those really really offensive words that are only used to Bert. People in our in our lexicon, only in the context of tournaments or clubs or nowadays. If you're playing with like the scrabble, go, you can choose to play with our lexicon, and I'm not sure that we want to keep our name attached towards like that, so does that mean as? Can. Use the. The dictionary play it on the APP. Does that mean like a general public having access to that? Yes, but when you play scrabble on line you get your choice as to whether you're playing English or French or German or Spanish or whatever, and then if you choose English. With play with the international dictionary or the North American dictionary, and then if it's not recommend one, do you want to play with? The sanitized one or the complete one, and so the question is how complete does the complete wordless need to be so? This is something that is that kids could end up playing with their parents and picking up these words that they know to be wrong. Kids know these words already I have two sons sixteen thirteen income go to the trouble for a long term thing the words for outside of scrabble and asked my sixteen year old. If he would ever play the N. word, he said No. There is no way you could just live with yourself after playing at word like that in front of your friends, okay? At least there's hope for the next generation. If you plan competitively and you are in in a room, you're playing against people that What stops anybody from using one of these words, and and then what's it like for someone to see a competitor win using one of these slurs against gay people, most offensive words that you can use about women are included in this. What's it like to be in a competition? Seven plays when these words and actually wins because of it. I'm embarrassed to say, but we have this understanding that by fifty years of tradition we do not care about. The Meanings of words when we play them in scrapple that that's something that you get told the very first time you go to a club tournament, the words meaningless. Don't ask me what the word means. All that word means is that I just scored eighty points, and I'm going to beat you. I mean the the word we don't ask. Words with meanings of the words that are ineffective or the ones are offensive, and what that means is that. Everybody grows up. Thinking grows up within the game thinking that they can play whatever they like without worrying about the meetings. The only time it gets us into trouble is of course. There's an interaction with the with the greater world. If we want to have new people coming into the game and they're offended I would like to be able to tell them. We don't play these offensive words. You can stay safe space for broadcasting a game then we have to talk to broadcasting partners saying. You know which of these words do you think your viewers shouldn't be seeing? And then we have to tell our players in. You can't play these words and we have the session again. Where are you on this? I mean what I'm trying to get a sense of what side of this argument that you you said on. Personally I think we should get rid of all of the offensive slurs. The Game I think we should keep. The words are offensive body body functions the reason I got started with. This is because one of our members said. Is there something that we can be doing to support black players in this full time so I personally believe that we should do this? However, it's not my choice at asked. Asked the advisory board, which is an elected assembly elected body of our players to make the decision because I think it needs a lot of community input, both to get the right decision to to make sure that everybody understands it is not an arbitrary choice, I think it reflects poorly on competitive scrabble players that they accept the use of words that in any other context would be a hate crime. And that they pretend that the words have no meaning. when they're playing a game just so that they can score a few extra points. And where does this go from here? When and how will this be decided? As soon as the. Torrent of responses that we've been receiving back from people in a in an open public poll that we've been conducting since the weekend as soon as that Tornado responses ends, and we probably up to about a thousand responses so far then the data goes back to the advisory board and they can make a real it. May Be getting more public input after this interview so. Be Prepared for that I'm deeply regretting having promised. Read every response, okay? Thanks. Thanks speaking with us. Thank you for. Jon Chu is the CEO of the north. American scrabble Players Association we reached him in Toronto. Bubba Wallace knows what he saw. On yesterday's program, we talked about a recent incident in the NASCAR world where a noose was found hanging in Mr Wallace's garage. He's is only black driver, and he was recently at the forefront of a successful push to have confederate flags banned from official events. Late yesterday evening, the FBI announced the results of its investigation into the incident. The bureau acknowledged that the item in question was in fact a noose, but said it had been there since last year and concluded that no federal crime was committed NASCAR. Itself said the news was actually a garage door poll. After all that was announced last night. bubba Wallace spoke with CNN's Don Lemon. Don, the image that I have, and I've seen of what was hanging in my garage. It's not a garage full of been racing on my life. We've raised. Hundreds of garages that never had garage pools like that so people that want to call it garage pool put out old videos and photos of of knots as their evidence. Go ahead, but from the evidence that we have that I have. It's a straight up news. The FBI is stated it was a new over and over again. NASCAR leadership has stated it was a news I can confirm that I actually got evidence of what was hanging a my garage to confirm that it was a news and. Never seen anything like. Let me just read from NASCAR here. We appreciate the FBI's quick and thorough investigation and are thankful to learn that this is. This was not an intentional racist act against BUBBA. We remain steadfast in our commitment to providing a welcoming and inclusive environment for all who love racing. What do you think about that? It seems like NASCAR has your back, but are you worried about the backlash? Get backlash every day. I think we talked about Things a little bit worse when they're trying to test your character like I said earlier try to take something away from me. That's false. Do you feel like you're getting I? Know you think you know that NASCAR. They say that they're supportive. Do you feel like you're out there on Ledge by yourself? Because they're the only one really speaking out no I don't I don't feel alone. I don't like I said before is in about sponsorship Susan About Race Wins, or or represents about what you feeling art. We've seen everybody come together on Monday there. That was one of the coolest things that that I've ever been will to be a part of not saying one of that, but drivers wanted to do that. They wanted to show. Support me and. You know now kind of looks. Bad, but it doesn't because was in their hearts they. They know it is something they want to stand up for. NASCAR, driver, bubba Wallace speaking with CNN last night. In Roger. Stone's case justice was blind, and someone had their thumb on the scales. That's the explosive allegation from a prosecutor who helped convict the former associate of us. President Donald Trump in a congressional hearing today errands Alinsky said there was political pressure to recommend a reduced sentence for Mr Stone who was convicted on seven counts, including lying to Congress and tampering with witnesses. Roger Stone, was eventually sentenced to forty months in prison. Here's part of Errands Alinsky testimony today, which was delivered through a video link. The first thing that every USA learns that we treat every defendant equally and fairly in the United States of America. We do not prosecute people based on politics, and we don't cut them a break based on optics, either but that wasn't what happened here. Roger Stone was treated differently because of politics at the time of these events that up two thousand and twenty I was career. Assistant United States attorney as I am proud to be now. I was not privy to discussions with political leadership at the Department of. Justice. Of what happened is based on to six. What I saw and what I hurt. What I saw the Hajer stone was being treated differently from every other defendant he received breaks are in my experience, unheard of and all the more so for a defendant in his circumstances, a defendant who lied to Congress remained unrepentant, and who made the threat against a judge and a witness in his case, and what I heard repeatedly was that this leniency was happening because of stones relationship to the president. President that the acting US attorney for the District of Columbia was receiving heavy pressure in the highest levels at the Department of Justice and instructions to us were based on political considerations and I was told that the acting us attorney was giving stone a break because he was afraid. The president of the United States I believe that was wrong and together with fellow line prosecutors I immediately and repeatedly said so. That was us. Prosecutor Errands Alinsky testifying virtually in front of a congressional panel today. A Justice, Department spokesperson dismissed Mr. Zelinski claims saying they're based on hearsay and his own interpretation of events. As a youth, he attacked fishing boats in Australia's Darwin Harbour. When he was moved to a new home, he remained uncooperative attempts to bring some happiness or romance into his life. We're stymied when he ate his first two girlfriends, and even now in his fifties, he's furious as ever. He's had a fascinating life, and if Elvis, the crocodile could talk well, he'd tell you. He hated you and then he'd kill you. Wouldn't matter how nice you're. Elvis is not at all discriminating about who or what he violently attacks as he proved in two thousand eleven when he attacked and subdued. Intruder. Someone pushed into his territory. A lawnmower guest host Peter Armstrong found out more about the one sided battle from Tim Faulkner the operations manager at the Australian Reptile Park near Sydney Australia. Mr Faulkner. Take back your employees. Billy call at his in Elvis's Penn showing the lawn. When did people I realized that something had gone wrong? What what happened? There was three of us in there and the crooked. Give us a little bit of a hard time. Several minutes earlier. He'd sort of giving a bit of a charge. And it's you know we can normally read him and just get out of the way so the two of us, I was behind with the whipper-snipper, just doing the edges and Billy Cole out and as I turn around. The cookies sort of in between the fence and the trade and he's walking with the the Mohan. So what happens, he's with cross comes out. He just launches that avoid incredibly fast, and once he grabbed onto that front section of the Moa already did them was just the characters rested back on his haunches, and just slowly started to drag them our and billy back into the water, and this is like a regular push mower. I got good size lawn more. Good Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean it's a really good reminder for us. Just has powerful big like that because the male must be I'd just you know forty to fifty kilos and? He just turned it around like it was a soft toy and try to hold onto the long Moan. It happens much slower in in in real time, and from the moment the come out as a he, he just blasted out of the water very aggressively, and it's just defensive. He's defending his territory. He thinks. This lad Marin from the moment that he grabbed it at that point, the clock stopped and just slowly started to walk back into the water I. Did that really was holding it? And what billy would have been hoping full? Is that cultural? Try and get a bit of hold on it? Because he only had sort of fun to be snapped on the MOA. Go and billy was that he'd be able to just get them back out of his mouth, so elvis drugs the lower back into his pool. How deep is this pool probably a five foot at the point where he was so deep. I look at the he's got a wonderful little the putting there and and. That's that's quite interesting that the Elvis he was. I mean he was the proudest Kakayev, but I because for him just us yesterday. You know instead of all is we? Get them otherwise from me more. You know he doesn't get to eight the capability in that. He's sort of one yesterday. And he sat atop bowel with these chest puffed out and. During, he's he's. He's fading Tom Yesterday at one thirty I mean. He was just a firecracker he's. For him, it's actually really stimulating. Do! You, think he. He's SORTA. Saw The lawn mower at that point that some sort of a prize? I'll look I think you know Cook. Adults have all these these essential around they fight and I I mean I think that the rumble of the Ma As it, it'd be a threat you know I mean other crocodiles. I'm sure you've heard alligators and other cooker. deleon might that big territorial rumbled, and the male Crocodilians do an amount of maybe similar to that, but it's quite common knowledge that the crooked of pinned to be be aggressive towards Mo is so I, don't think he saw it as a prize at the time. That I didn't think he'd come out to get it as a prize, but once he had taken it. Yes, he certainly thought as apprised Dan, so he's. He's sitting there. Proudly chest puffed out. How does one get the lawnmower back? You toss the crocodile a from the Mela with these five or thing in the world, and that is the food. At police, the shape of a horseshoe, and it's quite beak. What were able to do is to get One of the Cape is to walk the crooked all around the pool following a piece of kangaroo. Kangaroo, really lane. Mate and crocodiles can be trying to basically if if they said too much or fatty foods, so we walked him around the other side of the pool, and whilst he was fixated on that food on him, and in the process of of aiding it I was able to duck into the water and pull them out. You went into the water like dove into five, Hulan grabbed the. It's not as dramatic say on because the crooked alleys easy in fact, quite a long way away, and he's got a lane barrier between human, and you know as quick as easing the water, a big animal like that you know, he slows down quite rapidly on land. Elvis probably feels like he's won this round, doesn't he? He does and it was fantastic. Because he he's like always his background. He was a problem crocodile in the wall, and he was captured from the wild, and very thankfully they Stein they don't get shot anymore because. That's what used to happen, so times have changed. He was captured because he was attacking fishing. and. He's not attacking them to wait the people inside. He's attacking that bug because even within his territory. That's a threat. Any was familiar. Crocodile. I. killed a couple of girlfriends, and and again that's just because these big mile. crocs go so stupid with the territory and full test. Australian they just everything is a threat and to have Elvis Jot. Yacht and feel a product for himself up by sound funny, but I really liked that he that he has that baddies, and he enjoys very leaves, and it's worth defending. Well! You'll have to tell us the next time it gets into trouble. This is a is a fascinating little crocodile. he's, he's he's. He's wonderful and we love him in. Yeah, he's a well forty to sixty year old crock. We say fifty, but. Of course because he came from the wild. It's impossible for us to calculate exactly when he was born. In the front of his life, and he's just such a beautiful kraken. We. We love him very much not. Well, we appreciate you telling about his adventures. Yeah, thank you for your interest. All right have a great day. By just. From twenty eleven as it happens, guest host, Peter Armstrong speaking with ten faulkner operations manager at the Australian reptile park near Sydney Elvis continues to thrive and to do his best to make sure anything that gets too close to him does not arrive. You've been listening to. The as it happens podcast, our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One non Sirius Xm following the world at six. You can also listen to the whole show on the CBC. Listen APP, download it for free from the APP store or from Google play. Thanks for listening I'm Carol off and I'm Chris. For more CBC PODCASTS GO TO CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.
Apr 22, 2020
"Hello and welcome back to sort and skill daily. I'm your host Ryan Williams. It's Wednesday April twenty second coming up on certain scale daily additional information on the Nova Scotia spree shooting which left at least nineteen. People dead has been released. Authorities in Utah have identified a suspect in the murder of married West Jordan. Couple Tony and Catherine Butterfield. Finally and Minnesota has been charged with the murder of missing teen destiny. Avery Avery he's been missing since early. April all this and more coming up on skilled daily Between Saturday night and noon on Sunday fifty one year old interest. Gabriel wortman went on a twelve hour shooting spree through Nova Scotia. Killing at least nineteen people were men was a known collector of RCMP memorabilia. He apparently used items. From his collection including decommissioned RCMP vehicle and in RCMP uniform in the commission of his crimes as authorities continue their investigation of last weekend's deadly shooting. A rough timeline of the events emerged according to the CBC. The first victims were discovered on Saturday. Night in the small town of Puerto Pick where shooter owned several properties. The shooting happened prior to eleven PM responding. Rcmp officers found multiple casualties both inside and outside several residences. Witnesses reported that at least three houses were on fire and locals told the CBC that some of the victims were shot as they emerged from their homes to flee the flames. At eleven thirty pm the provincial RCMP through their twitter account notified the public that they were responding to a firearms complaint and port pick and warned residents to lock themselves inside their homes. One of the victims killed imported pick was Lisa Macauley who taught at the elementary school in the neighboring town of Debert her sister told the CBC that Lisa had hidden her children in the basement of her house before she went offer. Assistance to the victims mccully was acquainted with the shooter. Rcmp chief superintendent. Michael Leather said on Monday that the first group of victims were people who knew the gunman overnight. The shooter drove North Report pick. He reached Wentworth early Sunday morning. Where he killed. Four people including Sean McLeod and his living girlfriend Elena Jenkins they were both employees of the correctional service. The couple's neighbor called nine one one at eight. Am to report an explosion and gunfire from the direction of their home. Tom Bagley retired airport. Firefighter had the misfortune of driving past the residents of the time of the explosion. He was shot and killed. Bagley daughter posted on facebook that her father died trying to help others. Lillian highs. Lop Was murdered. As she went an early sunny walk in Wentworth police. Then say that. The shooter still marked. Police gear began randomly pulling drivers over and killing them inside their cars. One of the victims was Kirsten beaten a nurse at around nine in the morning. Rcmp announced on twitter. The shooter is Gabriel Wortman and there were multiple victims at ten seventeen. Am they warn the public? The shooter may dressed as a police officer and driving a police vehicle at some point on Sunday morning while the shooter is pulling drivers over on highway one zero two to witness assaulted. Rcmp vehicles on fire near a silver SUV. The witnesses told BBC. They saw officer run towards the vehicle as shots rang out and then saw the shooter flee in the silver SUV. It's believed that this witness may have seen the murder of RCMP officer. Heidi Stevens by eleven forty on Sunday. Morning Police have. The shooter surrounded at a gas station. Here in filled he was killed during the standoff questions are being raised concerning the RCMP's reaction to the events in particular why they employed twitter to informed public instead of alert. Ready Canada's emergency alert system alert ready which is the same system used for amber alerts and cases of missing children since alerts to radio television stations as well cellphones the premier of Nova Scotia Stephen McNeil said the RCMP. Never asked the government to send out an alert when RCMP. Chief Brindell lucky was asked. Why the emergency alert system was not used. She replied quote. There's always going to be a better way of doing things I do say in any incident such as this. We've always had to look back at what they did. Nobody can lose their lives in vain. Our NEXT STORY TAKES US TO UTAH. The desert news reports that police in west Jordan have identified a suspect and the killing of married couple Tony and Catherine Butterfield. The suspect thirty-one-year-old Albert Johnson is on the Lam and police have arrested his wife twenty nine year old. Sina Johnson in connection with the murders. The bodies of thirty one year old Tony Butterfield and thirty year old Catherine Butterfield were discovered at their west Jordan home on Saturday morning after a neighbor called a report. The sounds of gunshots and screaming coming from their house. Tony's body was discovered in the backyard and Catherine's was just inside the back door. They both had been shot. It appeared that the home had been rifled through but police don't know if anything was taken the couple's three children were home during the shooting but were not harmed based on the evidence. The scene police believed that during the struggle. The assailant suffered a knife wound. It's one of his extremities. Which would have been serious enough to be noticeable police sergeant. Jc hold told the news that the evidence also led police suspect Albert Johnson although he revealed no further details on the matter. Johnson is also a resident of West Jordan and according to Sargent Hall Quote Johnson was known to the butterfields. This was not a random act. We do believe that it was targeted. Act of violence and an isolated act. Holt said that the police believe the couple died. During a home invasion quote he was not a welcome guest and repeated. There's no sign. The couple was involved in criminal activities. We do believe that the butterfields were absolutely true victims. They didn't have any role in this. We don't believe there was any criminal activity going on or anything like that. Johnson left the crime scene before police arrived and had been invading them. Ever since Johnson's identity was announced on Monday morning later that day police arrested his wife. Sina for allegedly helping her husband. Flee the law. According to a police affidavit seen it is charged with obstruction because she quote continue to also by her knowledge of what happened despite having information about the killings the document alleges quote. She withheld the whereabouts of the homicide suspect and falsified her account of what occurred in her involvement. It's known that she had contact with a homicide suspect on multiple occasions prior to and after the homicide scene it is charged with tampering. With physical evidence for allegedly disposing items of evidentiary value. Regarding the homicide it was also argued. That scene would flee if released on bail. Since per the affidavit quote Johnson made statements that she plans the by plane ticket Arizona and wouldn't specify wherein Arizona she would go. The alleged party has already aided the homicide suspect in fleeing and police believe that she will continue to aid. The homicide suspect if released. She's being held without bail for the time being circuit hold also stated that Albert Johnson has a prior criminal record possibly in California after the break a Minnesota man admitted to murdering missing teen destiny. Avery and dismembering her body now for our final story of the day. A Minnesota man is facing murder charges after police say he admitted to murdering nineteen-year-old destiny. Avery dismembering her body. The suspect twenty-seven-year-old Ethan. Broad made his first court appearance on Monday. He's been charged with second degree murder. Avery was reported missing on April ninth by her mother Doreen after having no contact with her daughter since April third. That's not been staying at broads. House temporarily during told the Valley News. The she knew broad is a friend of her daughters who helped her out when she needed a place to stay several times. Before on April third drain avery and Jordan Yarbrough destinies boyfriend both received frantic calls from broad broad claim that he in destiny. He'd gotten into a fight and when he woke up she was gone as. We're all her belongings. Jordan Yarbrough told the news quote. Ethan told four different stories. It didn't add up when days pass without communication from destiny. Doreen reported her daughter missing. Shooting Jordan also told them about broad shifting stories. According to the criminal complaint against broad moorhead police went to question the suspect that his home after receiving multiple tips about every S- disappearance during the conversation broad told officers the heat awoke into find Adrian. All her things gone when officers re interviewed him at the police station brought allegedly told them that avery was dead and then admitted to dismembering body in his garage with the help of others however he denied killing her blamed another individual for the killing and said that that person had avery over the head with a pipe before cutting her throat he then claimed that he and several other people carried every body to his garage where her body was dismembered. However surveillance video footage showed dragging pluto bag from his apartment to the garage according to the complained when broad was confronted with video evidence. He admitted the heat killed avery. Broad is claiming that he killed her in self defence. A search of Ethan broads garage recovered a saw blade with blood and human tissue and several blue bins with bloodstains inside his home their pink spots on the carpet which brought the officers were due to him using bleach to try. And get rid of the bloodstains. That's Avery's remains have not yet been found. Her mother Doreen told the valley news quote. He will not tell anybody where she's at which is the hardest part and now that I know that she's gone. I want answers. I want to know where she's at. I want to know what he did to her. We'll continue to keep you updated on the story as more information becomes available. That's it for today's episode of Sword Scaled daily. We'll see back here tomorrow and until then stay safe. Sorting scale daily is an incongruity media production. Your host was Ryan Williams researching writing by Hagar Barack executive producer. Mike if you liked the show subscribing leave us a review if you bite the writers with feedback or suggestions use the email address daily sworn scale dot com. Do you need something to listen to next. We'll check out this other show from cast media. Hi I'm Jacob Tula I'm Jamie BB and we're your host of circle stocking each episode. We're going to bring you a new stock in case covering the INS and outs of each stalker their victim in their shoulders. What is now a nine? She hated me so much. She found my stepmother Brendan her and then was caught. Making a plan to attack me with my stepmother he shows up to my gallery and he's wearing a space suit. He looks at me and he goes. You look like Jessica Rabbit and Lou from the Fifth Element and then he looks at me very intensely and he just GonNa Stock You. We hear about the cops not really do need thing or not really caring about the cram stalking victim shaming the Predator. Who'd been stalking me for. Forty four years was starting to really interfere with my life and my freedom a lot more than he had been one of those random messages on my damn it was like. I'm coming in all see on this date. I was like I'm not responding today and then it was like a verification of like I said all of a sudden I hear a knock at the door so I opened the door and their day. Six foot something gentleman standing in front of me with a backpack and he looks at me and he said. Are you Erin kind of panicked? Because this isn't Larry. He May to my work and he grabbed me. Push me into the door and why unblock the unblock may be blocked me? I'm Jacob Tula. I'm Jamie BB. Strictly Stocking Mares on January twenty first. We subscribe on Apple podcasts. Spotify or where podcasts like God. This person won't stop texting me calling me keeps showing up everywhere then. That's when it's like you're like Oh shit.
June 4: Inquiring minds
"The theatres have closed, but the show look on, play me. PODCAST is thrilled to present a new series. The show must go on featuring provocative productions from some of North America's most acclaimed creators for the stage. Sit back and experience everything from chilling thrillers to Gut wrenching dramas to arriver in comedies each month experience, the exhilaration of theatre from the comfort of your own home. Plenty available wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello. I'm Carol off and I'm Chris Bowden. This is as it happens the podcast edition. Tonight enquiring minds, a gunman killed Ryan Farrington's mother and stepfather in Nova, Scotia's mass shooting. He says police aren't answering his questions about what happened, but he's hoping. A public inquiry might arrested development video of none of RCMP officer, running his vehicle into an Inuk man is putting the focus on police tactics north of the border. None of its Justice Minister says she understands people's frustrations set in stone family wanted a simple Irish inscription for their mothers tombstone, but the Church of England answers with a firm. No on the grounds, it could be a political statement. The Peace Corps at a memorial service for George Floyd Today Reverend Al Sharpton. Sharpton said there's a difference between calling for peace and calling for quiet. He says he'll do the former, but he refuses to do. The latter taking stock, several people in auto report, being stalked and attacked by coyotes reach one man who has some biting remarks about the animal. He discovered nine on his leg and full steam. No head when you've got a job to do, you can't get a little thing like being decapitated. Slow you down, and for living life to the hilt for eighteen months without a Noggin Mike, the headless chicken became a local hero, as it happens the Thursday edition radio that takes things to the next level. Part. It's been more than forty days since the mass killing in Nova Scotia and the investigation by the RCMP in the province is very much ongoing RCMP Superintendent Darren. Campbell confirmed today that the gunman who killed twenty two people in April across multiple locations obtained his firearms illegally. Superintendent Campbell also provided a small window into the gunman's motive today. The gunman was described. Is what is called an injustice collector? One Who held onto conflict differences with others. Turning them inward until they boiled over enrage. Some recipients of his wrath violent were targeted for perceived injustices of the past others, reactive targets of his rage, and some were just mad random targets. We may never uncover all the details or fully understand why the gum and did what he did. Investigations committed to providing answers to the victims. The surviving family members to the public that we serve and to hold anyone who played a role accountable in these horrific crimes. For some families, those answers still aren't enough. They want an independent public inquiry appointed either by the province of Nova Scotia or by the Federal Government Ryan Farrington is one of those family members, his mother and Stepfather Don and frank. Were among the twenty two people killed in the attack. We reached Ryan Farrington in Ottawa. Ryan. What is the biggest most burning question you have about? What happened that night of April Eighteenth? My biggest question is what did the rcmp no prior to that night, and what more they could have done to prevent a strategy from from occurring when you see. What did they know prior to that night? You you're saying. What did they know about the shooter and His his past correct. What have you learned about some of the material that they the police seem to know about the shooter. What what has tipped you off to thinking that they might be more. just some of the statements from the neighbors calling the Arstan regarding the domestic violence and the weapons that were shown to these neighbors at the time, and and nothing being done about it. Referring to we spoke with that neighbor Brenda Forbes. She reported to police. She told us that she reported domestic violence at that house of the shooter with his his his partner, and that she had seen at that time that there were multiple weapons in the house. She and her husband are retired military and said they identified. Some of those weapons is being prohibited. Is that what you're referring to correct, but what about the tip? The police had as early as twenty eleven. This is something that truro police services had what what do you know about that? I heard that the tour police sent it out to their cap back in two thousand eleven, regarding the guns being moved back, and forth to his Puerto Pick home, and then I heard that it was purged after two years. My biggest thing was with that. That is why would you perjure deleted? After two years knowing that there's a volatile person in the community with possible guns at his house, not just at the they had guns at his house. The Toronto Police Service had been notified of that, but that the man wanted to kill a cop. That's a quote. What did police do with that tip? Do you know I have no idea what they thought tips? That's a good question to ask and. from what I hear, is they? They don't know what. Happened with that tiff or What actually took upon that at the time? was that was just two years before Brenda Forbes? That neighbor had seen the weapons in the house and had also reported domestic violence in the House and she reported that to police as well. That's correct you. You have no answers to these questions. Is this things you want to know about? What would that tell you about? What happened that night? Knowing all these tips and having the bulletin I. Don't understand why they are seeing pe- would not act on it or keep an eye on him. At least keep an eye on, and the ICMP said they're still investigating. What happened that night? What are you asking for? What do you think should happen I'd like to see a public inquiry called on this, not just a review, but in a full inquiry, and to see what the RCMP knew or didn't know what could have been done better. What policies have to change? So this never happens again in any community in Canada and I do think that there seems to be reluctant to have that in Clary I don't know I'm. You know maybe the RCMP or trying to high information. I, really don't know. Am I, do wonder if the police are hiding something from you. It's just the the RCMP seem to be pretty tight. Lipped on any information that they're giving any influence we've gotten has been slim to non as far as the investigation goes and what they've learned, and do you think that the the deaths of your mother and your stepfather was preventable I truly believe they were preventable. Between all information that came out prior back in two thousand and eleven with the bulletin with the complaints, due to domestic violence and the illegal weapons I totally think that. If this was rock upon sooner, this could have been rented. How is your family coping with that? It's tough it's been very rough on me and my brother. Idea with anxiety issues as it is, and I've had to take a leave of absence from work. And, how much would it help you if there should be if she'd have answers to the burning questions that you have about what happened that night? It would help a lot just just knowing the facts, and and some what could have been done and prevent it that night. The issue it seems to be about the inquiry is that the federal government and the provincial government disagree as to? Who should be doing that and that seems to be what holds it up? What do you make of that? I think it's nonsense I think the federal government. Needs to step up and call the being for. I mean there are government, or that's what we pay taxes for and they me to. Jump on this and get it going. What do you want people to know about your your mother? Dawn and your stepfather, frank? were. To the most wonderful people in the world, they they would do anything for anybody. and my Stepdad moved down there ten years ago and My mom couldn't retire, so he lived down there alone, and he did the house up in woodwork. Like, all the cabinet trees and pretty much regret it, the whole main level and kitchen area, and and did it all and would work for my mom like she would love and. My mom stays back here and she. She worked or her butt off for. Ten years until she retired last year and And she didn't even get a year of enjoyment out of it to. Someone decided they were. GonNa play God. This is a place where your mom had come from. Correct she was going home. That was her. Dream was to move back down to Nova Scotian as live out her remaining years down down by the ocean. And that was taken from. It was. Ryan I'm so sorry. I appreciate that and I appreciate you talking to us today. Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time out by. Ryan Farrington's mother and Stepfather Don and frank luncheon were killed along with twenty other people in April's mass killing in Nova, Scotia. Reached Ryan Farrington in Ottawa. In our hearts forever that is the simple moving message Margaret. Keen's family wanted inscribed on her tombstone after her death two years ago, and they wanted that phrase in the Irish language, not English, but according to a judge with a consistory court in the diocese of Coventry in England that is not okay. In a recent ruling. He said that the phrase could be mistaken for a political statement unless an English translation was included. Margaret. Keane and her husband were born in Ireland, but met in England in the nineteen sixties. Call at Franklin is Margaret Qian's daughter. We reached her in Puyallup Washington. Colette first of all. Why was it important to your family that you have this Irish language inscription on your mother's tombstone, so the Irish inscription cower completes the design of the stone, and it represents both parents heritage amid coca, as this will also be the rest of place of my dad, hopefully many many many years to come. said that's why it was important. We have the Celtic Cross. Design the G., A. Emblem as part of that Celtic. Cross and the Irish inscription just completed that and the G.. A. is referring to the Gaelic Athletic Association of what your parents part of. What was your reaction when you learned that? They would not allow you to have this Irish Gaelic because it sometimes called. You couldn't have this in that language on the tombstone. What was your reaction when you? So. Wasn't that they wouldn't allow us, but they wouldn't allow us to have it without an English translation underneath. That's kind of negated why we wanted and would also just cluttered the headstone, but we were just flabbergasted because it would never dawned on us that anyone would say you can't writes that. Woods will political. We just couldn't understand that. This was a poetic and simple message from the family to our mom, a means in our hearts forever. The judge said this is a quote. given the passions and feelings connected with the use of Irish, Gaelic there is a sad risk that the phrase would be regarded as some form of slogan or that. That its inclusion without translation will be itself seen as a political statement. This is take that apart for, but so what? What do you think? What is he referring to any says the passions and feelings connected with the Irish Gaelic in England I mean we never made the judgment? We can't speak on behalf, but we can only presume that he's referring to. A time years ago a time, the Irish and English people have put to bed when the was on the matzec between the two nations anders his. Back long history there's the history of the Irish language and identity under English Authority in Ireland being suppressed or make me difficult, and so this is something over the centuries. But in England is there. Is there an issue with the Irish language at this point in England, the Irish. Is recognised in England. As a minority language, it is not abandoning. It is recognized like the Cornish language like the Welsh language is recognized K-league is recognized language in England. How did you respond able to appeal this decision so initially to have headstone erected on this trip to England Brown's once we are Catholic. Mother was buried up the Church of England grounds. Because it's within walking distance of our family home, it is in the parish, the our parents, and were together all their married life, and so that's why we chose to have. Barrett here, the part of the process erected a headstone. Is that you use submit an application to the parish council? And the parish council initially. Agreed our request to have a Celtic Cross with the emblem on the Irish inscription on they actually voted on their own parish council, and that was accepted sixty five, but it did have to have a revolt from BECO- their own Jeff. And it was then that refused it now, initially, our request to have the Celtic, cross was going to be treated from the main headstone, and that was one of the things that they said they wouldn't they. The headstones to being nine with the other headstones and kind of. Much flattened square so when we put in our peel back in September of last year we said Okay we can agree to incorporate and and carved the cross out of the stone rather than have it it protruding from the stone. Will. The rest of the actual be acceptable now. Then, it went to the. Chancellor of the Church of England Diocese, in Coventry, and it was then that we got judgment in May practice their final judgment that no in order for this approved, it must include the English translation underneath. But whilst we were extremely disappointed in that. As a family we want to get the memorial stone erected on MOMS grave for ought that he's very proud man when he goes down to the grave, and just sees the wooden cross an all the other graves with the headstone. He fails that he's let his wife down that she hasn't got the stone. Gift to her erected, and so we second thought. Maybe, just have to accept this and we are just GonNa have to fulfill the judgements that they church of England at passed down on the design of the stone I'm. We had an oil honesty. We have accepted that. It was only when the report was made public online, and then picked up by the social media and yourselves. That, we've had an outpouring of support and advice. On what I can say to you now Carol is as a family we have today initiated Pale. Given the response to how this judge this this Church of England judge had would he had said. There's a seem that. This is politicized the thing that was not political to begin with exactly. Yeah we have no problem with the Church of England we note that a single man within the Church of England made this decision. And it doesn't reflect the Church of England. We know from a statement that they actually put out yesterday. WHO's very hard on your father, but is it harder news well? You're grieving versus. Yet it is because we're. This is the final act almost in not graven prices, and we can't complete grieving process. Versus, a family, a mother's death was very untimely. An in the background we are also. We saw in discussions with the NFL about her death, because as a family and with advice, we believe it was a preventable death. Anyway, so her death. itself has been very hard. Life throws curve ball some times. We seem to be taken the but some from them, but that has been dealing with two thousand concerts in since my mother's death, and so all that going on, it has been extremely hard. Live at home as I am thousand miles away, but I do go home often, and when I to talk to my mom Hennessy wooden cross. And I know. My mom was a simple woman, and she wouldn't want I, but he would want. What was rightly hers an NFL, but as a family until we get that headstone erected and in design that we know she would like that we are let down a little bit. Colette I'm so sorry you're going through this, but. I do appreciate that she would tell us the story today. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you bye-bye. Call. That Franklin is Margaret Qian's daughter. We reached her. In puyallup Washington disease. Pictures of the family. You can visit our website. CBC DOT CA SLASH AI H. The bishop of Coventry released a statement to say today distancing himself from the ruling, saying that the legal procedures of consistory courts are outside of his control. He wrote I. Rejoice in the life of this great city with all its linguistic, ethnic, religious and racial richness. You know when you wake up feeling a little off like something's troubling you at the back of your mind, but you can't put your finger on it well. That's how Mike felt for eighteen months except he didn't have fingers, he had claws, and he didn't have a back of his mind, because it was lying on a stump or wherever the farmer had chopped his head off. Twenty years ago as it happens paid telephone visit to the town of fruita Colorado where every year except this year, because of the corona virus, thousands gathered to celebrate the life of a local hero. Mike the headless chicken. Here's Mary. Lou Finlay conversation with Sally Eggington Corden coordinated the annual Mike the Headless Chicken Festival. This is from January of two thousand. Ms Johnson, who was Mike the headless chicken. Mike was a Wyandotte rooster that was chosen to be chicken dinner. September tenth, nineteen, forty, five by farmer Olsen. And when he chopped Mike's head off Mike lived and he lived for eighteen months. After the fact of the top he lived. He lived so he. The farmers trying to kill a chicken for dinner. Right takes off. His head takes off his head. He wanted to leave enough of the. Neck because his mother-in-law liked. The next is trying to get an extended nick section for her uh-huh and after his head was chopped off, Mike did not lead very much. They determined it and miss the crowded artery. he was able to live in. The ultimate watched him. I mean they were amazed that that he didn't. I and when he was alive the next day they went ahead and. Started taking care of him by feeding him and watering him through his with an eyedropper. So they they've dropped food. Right down his throat, right directly down his throat directly down throws him. Why didn't they? Why didn't they put him out of his misery? If I can use the word well. Apparently, Mike really wasn't in that much misery because he was trying to crow and and. From the reports that I've read. He acted dislike ordinary roosters. I assume he thought he was blind. You didn't know didn't have. He was fed and watered, and and he was in the chicken yard, and and basically went on a chicken. I know people have said unkind things about chickens brains, but don't. They need some brain to operate to move wellness? That was my reaction when I heard about. It can live without a head, but apparently they took him. To well I know. They took him to salt. Lake. City and the University of UTAH. Scientists they're. Checked him out and determined that there wasn't enough of his brain stem left for him to function. In the neck, right? The university tried to reenact Mike with the chicken they had put under anesthesia and it it. It just didn't work, so there was something unique to Mike and Mike was Pretty special yeah. Eighteen months. He lived eighteen months and he went on tour. He towards the West. I know there are reports out there that he toward all over the nation, but all that I can discover as Salt Lake City south to San Diego into Long Beach. To see this amazing chicken. He traveled around with a two headed calf. Oh, my God know. But he would pre- and crow and sleep with his neck under his wing. Oh, I guess. He gained weight. He was a fine specimen of a rooster to quote Mr Olsen. He just didn't happen tabs head. What did he die of eventually? Mike Choke to death on a kernel of corn. I know. For My. Well you have to treat this with humor I mean it is so bizarre. So but now you celebrate. Celebrate Mike Annual. Going to be an annual event is we are headed for our second annual event. We had a little incident with the placement of a railcar for visitor center here in Fruita in ninety eight. And it kind of tore that ten apart a little bit. It was a very heated thing. And we needed something to to bring the town together, and we also need any event for the a historic weeks that we have here in Colorado. and. We thought it would be fun. To Take Mike and we do celebrate his will to live, not as headless nece I mean this little guy went on for eighteen months and. Had a pretty good life or a little chicken. What are the events surrounding? The headless chickens celebrations well the last year they started off with a five K run walk. It was titled Run like Headless Chicken. We had chicken dinner we had. Chicken Games we had eight tosses in. A grace's. We've put a EGA spoon race around with it and try to it and we had a pinhead on the chicken. is any of this true? My is. Really? He really is true. In fact, he was written up by life magazine in the October, twenty. Second Issue Nineteen, forty five. They have photos there and if you'd like to see if a photo of Mike, you can go to Knx. W. A. F., U. N. Dot Net and his cyber coupe is set up there and the couple of weeks. He will be standing on his own, but that's where you can look at it now. And, it does have pictures of him. You won't be standing on his head now as far as I. Know He never still. But During the event we have horsedrawn wagons to take people around to historic spots here in Peruta. Fruit is about a town of six thousand people. Is it bringing people together? It did it's it's very family oriented event. Yeah, and so the hard feelings over the railcar. Whatever that? It was all those are all gone. people shake their heads. That were having. Chicken. Thing, they enjoy it now. Chickens lay eggs right. And that makes them female right. So why is he? And why is he? Why? Why was this chicken called Mike Mike? What's rooster and roosters. Hanson roosters, chickens, makeup, hands and roosting. I guess that's one thing. He was never interested in though, so that part of his brain was gone was procreating, or maybe they weren't interested in him. I don't know there's a one of the photos in life. Magazine is pretty funny with the other chickens looking at this little guy. They didn't ostracize him or anything. I don't believe so. They wouldn't know any better. Their Their chickens. Well have a happy. Celebration we will you know come on out and enjoy with? This may nineteenth and twentieth here in Fruita. Okay, they give us Edgerton. Thank you. Bye! Bye! Bye, bye! From the year two thousand, that was Mary Lou, Finlay, speaking with Sally Eggington, who was the coordinator of the Mike. The headless chicken festival in Fruita, Colorado. The. Theaters have closed, but the show logo on play me. PODCAST is thrilled to present new series. The show must go on featuring provocative productions from some of North America's most acclaimed creators for the stage sit back and experience everything from chilling thrillers to gut wrenching dramas to irreverent comedies each month experience, the exhilaration of theatre from the comfort of your own plenty available wherever you get your podcasts. Videos of violent arrests are making headlines from south of the border to as far north as you can get. Footage posted to facebook this week. Shows an Inuk man being arrested in the small community of King Night Nunavut on Monday night in the clip and RCMP officer drives into the man, knocking him over with the door of a police vehicle officers then pile out of that vehicle and onto the man, and now a bail document obtained by the Globe and Mail reveals that after his arrest, the man was placed in a cell with another inmate who allegedly beat him so badly. He had to be airlifted to hospital. Genie Hawk is none of its Minister of Justice. We reached her in Cambridge Bay. Had to walk. What was your reaction when you first saw the video of this arrest from Monday night? I was upset. I was hurt. I was angry. It was disheartening to see I mean. I didn't know the back on the whole incident, but to see something like that it just it's just sad to see. And there were there were it looked like four or five officers who were arresting him. After? They hit him with the door. and. The doesn't seem to be able to struggle very much. He's quite inebriated. What did you make of just the entire arrest? I can't really speak to the whole arrest. Just because it's under investigation and the Civil Rights Complaints Commission will be doing a review after the MP have done their internal and external investigation. But you do say that you've found the video of this man. Being hit deliberately appears hit with this. To, be disturbing now we have the global mail has since then obtained a bail document that shows that the same man was placed in a cell with another inmate who who beat him so badly. He had to be airlifted to a hospital. What do you make of that? I received information yesterday afternoon. And again I can really say anything career until the investigation is over I. Want to be can comment on the fact that when the RCMP put out a news release to say that this that they were investigating the arrest, and how it was handled that the the the the RCMP Chief Superintendent didn't mention that this that the same man had been put in the cell and had been beaten and then taken to hospital. Why did that not get? Mentioned in the release, put up by the RCMP it wishing released because we didn't find out until yesterday afternoon. Why were not aware of the of the incident until yesterday afternoon? So you as justice, Minister were not informed. No, are you saying also that the Chief Superintendent of RCMP? Told that her officers had allegedly put this man in the cell with another man who who beat him. You you'd have to ask. Who is investigating you know right? You say there's two incidents who who's investigating those incidents. I don't know about the selling. Tha didn't I just know about the? Incident that happened with video. Okay, but I've just I'm just curious because the Ottawa police are been asked to do an independent investigation of what happened. But there doesn't appear to be an independent investigation is to what happened to the man once. He was in the cell. Do you think that should be the case? I would have to talk to my my staff and find out exactly. What the situation was. I haven't got that far yet. But I will be talking to my big administer. The Ottawa police are already investigating other incidents with the RCMP under conduct nunavut you. Are you aware of that? Yes I am and I can't really saying anything until the station are complete I appreciate that you can't comment on things that are under investigation, but I'm just wondering what the reaction is on your part on people's reaction when there are these incidents involving people being hurt doing interactions with the police. Like everybody else and fat and. This has happened, and that's why I want to work with the revision with the commanding officer. Show that these types of incidents don't tap and again. How are people reacting? Since they saw that video from a Monday night. Angry, I mean it's all over the media. People are frustrated and some people are saying We have to wait and terror investigations over. We. You say people are frustrated because why? I mean when I said I was hurt. I was angry. I was sad. I mean everybody feeling the same way. In. We don't treat each other that way. And so, you doesn't say anything about the relationship between the RCMP and the communities. I mean we have great working relationships with with RCMP in the community, and it's just unfortunate that that one incident that happened to this individual I mean there's lots of speculation. Lots of lots of hearsay lots of. Tell two thousand words, but we don't know exactly what happened. We need to hear both sides of the story. Be before we can judge exactly what should happen to you think. Investigation Susan think what you're seeing in. That video is an isolated incident. Yes. Do you have any idea how the man is doing. He's he's apparently just is quite young. He's in his early twenties. he's seems to be quite badly hurt. Do Do you know how he's doing in hospital? I know he's in hospital and I know the reason why they sent him to. The hospital was just to make sure that there was no serious injuries but I think he's going to be okay. Mr Has. Look, thank you very much speaking with us. You're outcome. Have a good day youtube by by. Jeannie huckler WOK is the Minister of Justice in Nunavut. We reached her today in Cambridge Bay. In a statement this week, a spokesperson for the RCMP'S V Division said quote. The RCMP takes the conduct of our officers seriously, and we want to assure the public we have confidence in the process of the external investigation to determine the circumstances of the event, and whether criminal charges should be sworn against the officer unquote the RCMP, says the beating that allegedly occurred in the cell after Monday's arrest is being investigated as a separate incident. Hundreds of mourners gathered in Minneapolis today for memorial service in honour of George Floyd, and to acknowledge the movement that has taken to the streets across the US and beyond since he was killed by police. Reverend Al Sharpton was among the speakers this afternoon he had strong words for those critical of protesters in the wake of Mr Floyd's death. De Protest. All over the world. Some have. Looted? And done other things. And none of us in this family condones. Looting vantage points. But the thing I want us to be. Real cognizant. Is there's a difference between those calling for peace. Those calling for quiet. y'All don't want peace. You just won't quiet. You, just want us to shut up. Suffer in silence. The overwhelming majority of the people much. Wasn't break wind. They were trying to break barriers. Reverend Al. Sharpton speaking a memorial service for George Floyd. Today Before, the gathering a CBC reporter asked Mr Sharpton what he planned to say in his response. The Reverend had a message for Canadians. that. We want justice that there should not be a funeral here today. You know I preached the funeral of The victim of chokehold by New York City Police Eric Garner six years ago. I preached the funeral in Ferguson Policeman Killed Michael Brown, both of their families here. How many funerals that we have to have before we change the laws and we have accountability so I'm. I'm going to preach this family that we're GONNA. Make sure that George Floyd did not die in vain. This is the tipping point for changing. How policing is going to be done in America and I'm going to be forthright in that. The hope I have is I've seen as many whites marching as blacks I've seen people old and young. It's a new day that time has. The moment of change in America and I'm going to express that in my eulogy, and since you from Canada I won't have a twenty one second gap before I, say what I have to say. Reverend Al Sharpton with a dig at prime. Minister Justin Trudeau 21-second pause before answering a question about trump's handling of protests earlier this week. Today's Memorial for George Floyd will be followed by similar events in north. Carolina and Texas as well as a public viewing in Houston where Mr Floyd grew up. In. George Bain is used to braving harsh weather or maybe the odd barking dog as he does his early morning newspaper deliveries, but there's one challenge. He never thought he'd face an attack by a wild animal. We reached George Bain in Ottawa. Let's go back to Saturday when you got out of your car. And something strange began to happen. What's the first thing you remember about that? Okay? I'm walking up the driveway to deliver a paper to host and all of a sudden I feel his pain in my ankle and extreme pain. And I looked down and there's this coyote. GNAWING at my my leg. So I yelled at him and screamed, and he backed away a little bit I threw of newspaper. Adam Nissim. He backed away a little bit more? I ran up onto a porch where I was delivering the paper. And there was a broom there. I grabbed the groom and it started yelling and screaming at them. But in the meantime he's busy charging me and then back north, searching backing off as yelling at them. How big is this coyote? A I would say he's size of small German shepherds, a year, old German shepherd than. Roughly the same coloring. So. Tell us so you got up on the Porch and e. you're using the broom. How did you keep them at bay? Well I'm. Screaming I think that's probably what kept them at bay and. he then went across the road. And at that point, my Kerr door was open and so I took a run for it and as I'm running for. He's running for me. And I got in the car and shut the door. At that point to, he's busy circling the car. trying to get me. What did you do well? At that point? I said I'm not gonNA deliver any more papers tonight because I'm terrified to get out of the car. Yeah, and I called my rope manager and Let him know what had happened. And that I was going to go to emergency because my leg was bleeding profusely. And there was another case of a woman in her eighties. Who is out walking quite early in the morning? Who was constitutional and she suddenly sees a coyote editor ankles. Someone picked her up and got her in her car to rescue her, and the coyote apparently followed the cars. They tried to attack that woman again. She tried to get inside her house. I heard that the other fellow that does part the papers in Riverside, so has that part of the the railroad. And he was chased by four coyotes about the same around four o'clock in the morning. I'm sitting in the hospital and I get a call from my cell phone and he says George wouldn't leave it. I cut four coyotes chase me occur. I said Steve You wouldn't believe in I'm sitting in the hospital just got bitten by Coyote, but then it indicates that this, not just of one one rogue coyote out there. That was responsible for all these incidences. There's more of them than more than one. Though there's a lot of coyotes out there I think the one coyote that attacked me was also responsible for the girl because it occurred within the now or two of. My Incident And, it was only a block away now. They often say that. Wild animals are part of the the the environment in suburban and urban. Landscapes that there were sort of have to kind of live with them. But. These ones are particularly aggressive, aren't they? They become aggressive. This you for some reason. This year is different I've had. Been in contact with about ten of them this year, but this is the first time that one is attack. Series as to why they are more aggressive this year. I think people are probably feeding them out there on the other side of Armstrong road. used to be all Bush land, and in the last year. It's been taken down and it's all housing now, so they lost their habitat. So, have you been back on your route and and anymore encounters? Well, I. I did actually the following evening. Deliver what's called the Ottawa Sun? And within a couple blocks of where encountered this. Where I got bitten? Sided wasn't going to get out of the current anymore. To deliver the papers or just, he's them out the window. Into Peoples Driveway and Started to pitch the paper out the window, but I decided to open the door to get my foot down, so I'd have a good launching angle with the paper. And Twenty feet away from me. The same coyotes looking at. And, so I I kind of dropped the paper on the road. And shut the door and started driving down the street to my next customer. and. He's busy running after my vehicle. So he the next paper. turned onto. Another ruled where I have a customer. And he's following, and he followed me for climate or running after me. And I got down to the intersection of two two main intersection Spratt and. Canyon! And call my rope manager to let them know I said. Yvonne that Coyote is phone again tonight. And I looked down, and he's right beside my vehicle looking at in my window at me. so at that point I called the police again. And They sent three police cars out. What a nightmare for you George. Well! It's a nightmare for the residents out there I mean. I've been through it right now, and that's happened to me and I'm still in shock from. Terrified la I really like animals animal lover. But you know I'm terrified of these coyotes, but the people there are. They had five different. Events Happen. Roughly this weekend. And so they're getting really nervous and up in arms. Right we'll leave it. There I'm glad you're okay. thank you all right take. Take care. Okay, Curl Nice talking to you George. Thanks bye bye. We reached George Bain in Ottawa Gary Potts had a vision. He wanted the Canadian government to recognize his people as the rightful owners of their land, and he took that fight all the way to the Supreme Court. Mr Potts was the former chief of the Maga me. First Nation, which is about one hundred kilometers north of North Bay, Ontario, the Tomato Gama Nabi lived in the area for a thousand years, but the government says they signed their rights to the land away. Gary Potts strongly disagreed so in the one thousand nine hundred seventy s, he filed a land claim, and over the next three decades he led protests to stop a logging road, and to protect the hundreds of kilometres of forest protests that sometimes led to his arrest. Mr Pods died yesterday this week. The community on bear island Indian reserve is lighting a sacred fire on his property in his memory. In Nineteen Ninety one Gary Potts lost his land claim and the Supreme Court of Canada at the time. He told as it happens. Guest Christopher Thomas why the court decision was not total defeat. Well. I'm disappointed. I'm Disappointed and yet. feel vindicated. and why I feel vindicated is is that since eighteen eighty four? Eighty three, actually eighteen, eighty, five, the provincial government of -Tario denied that we were the. indigenous people of the tomorrow Guinea area. The Supreme Court of Canada overturned that version. They said that we were indeed the indigenous peoples of the Tomography area. So that's why we feel the vindicated that denial of our existence that people has ended, so the court said you were people, but you also lost your rights whether or not you signed a treaty because you accepted some benefits from the federal government, and that is the part that disappoint. Any regrets about how you approach this. There was that period where you could have come away with thirty million dollars and gone onto other things. Well. Christopher for one hundred out of the Bush deceit agent at Lake Neponsit in eighteen, seventy seven. This is our one hundred one hundred fifteen year now. And for one hundred fifteen years we faced the nyland suppression of the truth that we were two peoples. It occupied this area for thousands of years. Supreme Court of Canada ended that. Thirty million dollar for was to us. an attempt to buy. The Truth and the by our land, and we said that we cannot sell our land, and we cannot I accept an agreement that is premised on the fact that we signed treaties, and there was no treaty negotiations. There was no lump sum treaty payments, and there was no reserve. That was Gary Potts speaking with as it happens in nineteen ninety-one, the former chief of the Tamiami. First Nation in Ontario has died the temo Gama Amish Nabi struggled to get control over their land continues. You've been listening to the as it happens podcast. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One, Non Sirius Xm following the world at six. You can also listen to the whole show on the CBC. Listen APP. Download it for free from the APP store or Google play. Thanks for listening, I'm Carol off and I'm Chris. For more CBC podcasts Goto CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.
Apr 21, 2020
"Hello and welcome back in skill. Daily I'm your host Ryan Williams. It's Tuesday April twenty first coming up on sort scale daily. At least sixteen people were killed in Nova Scotia in the worst mass shooting in Canadian. History Police in Florida arrested a man for not complying with social distancing rules. Only to learn he is one for murder in Texas. A suspect is in custody. After four members of the same family including toddler were found. Murdered finally a suspect who shot and killed after hijacking. Dallas area bus was also wanted for questioning in connection with his girlfriend's murder. All this and more coming up on certain scale daily at least sixteen people died in a shooting rampage in Nova Scotia Canada this weekend. This is the worst shooting in Canadian. History the gunman began his murder spree on Saturday night and the small town of Porta pick and continue through the province leaving victims multiple scattered locations. Please finally tracked suspect to Enfield where he was killed around noon on Sunday. Following a car chase during the rampage. The gunman was wearing an rcmp uniform and driving a vehicle that was nearly identical to rcmp. Vehicle The New York Times reports that the incident began when police were called to a residence imported. Pick on a firearms complain at around eleven pm on Saturday April Eighteenth. When officers responded to the scene they found multiple casualties both inside and outside the house but the suspect fifty one year old Gabriel wortman had already fled residents were advised that wortman armed and dangerous and warned to lock themselves at home wortman adventurist who was known to collect RCMP. Memorabilia. Was a part time resident import. Pick during part of the spree he was wearing. Rcmp uniform and driving vehicle that was nearly identical to rcmp vehicle. The residents about this car which was only distinguishable from the real thing by its car. Registration played there are reports that he later switched vehicles. At least twice the Canadian press reports the nineteen people were killed and sixteen different crime scenes however that number may rise because the suspect also several properties on fire. The crime scenes include five burnt properties. Which have yet to be fully searched. The civilian casualties of the attack have not been officially named authorities yet but they are known to include two nurses a teacher and the shooter's neighbors. One police officer was killed constable. Heidi Stevenson a twenty year veteran of the RCMP Stevenson had two children a male rcmp officer sustained non-life-threatening injuries. The motive for the crime is not yet known. Police have stated that they believe. The spree did not begin as a random attack. Rcmp Chief Superintendent Chris. Leather stated quote the fact that this individual had a uniform police cars disposal certainly speaks to it not being a random act the screaming become more and more random as it progressed on Monday. Leather stated some of the victims knew the shooter and others were strangers. We will continue to keep you updated on the story. As more details become available. Our next story takes us to Florida. Police officers in Jacksonville Florida arrested a suspect for defying pandemic public safety measures and the discovered that he was wanted in connection with the murder in Pennsylvania. News Four Jacksonville. Reports that thirty year old Mario Gotti was arrested by Jacksonville. Beach police officers after being found loitering on a sand dune the city of Jacksonville reopened is beaches on Friday under new guidelines. Only active recreation such as walking running swimming or surfing allowed passive activities. Such as sitting here sunbathing are not permitted while questioning Gaudy. The officers learned that he was wanted in connection with a homicide in Pennsylvania police in Arnold Pennsylvania alleged that on January sixteenth Gotti fatally shot thirty-three-year-old. Michael couvert junior. While he was cooking dinner in his apartment a motive was not provided but God. He's also facing a burglary charge. So the killing me been connected to the break in. Gaudy dressed in stars and striped board shorts and a Hoodie was arrested without incident and booked into Duval County. Jail is a fugitive from justice. In addition Jacksonville Beach. Police charged him with giving false information to a law enforcement officer and drug possession. This next story is from Texas. A twenty year old suspect was booked on murder charges after a family. Four was discovered slain in Laredo. Cbs News Eleven reports. That on Thursday evening around six thirty. Pm LAREDO. Police responded to a call of an unknown nature. Residents officers became alarmed after finding signs of struggle inside the house but empty of inhabitants. They begin a search of the area in an adjacent vacant law officers on the bodies of three members of the same family. The investigation identified twenty year old Samuel Lopez as a person of interest and he was brought in for questioning following their interview with Lopez. Please discovered a fourth body. That of a two year old child about one mile from the crime scene on Friday Lopez was booked into Webb County. Jail on two counts of capital murder. One with a special circumstance of multiple victims and the other for murder of a child under the age of ten the charges are punishable by life without the possibility of parole or death after the break an arm suspect who was killed on Sunday. After hijacking Dallas area bus was also wanted for questioning in his girlfriend's murder. What do you think of? When you hear the words citrus. Is it orange slices after a soccer game or a lemon wedge and your water at your favorite restaurant yes and yes but another thing that citrus springs to mind is sharing because citrus was literally made to be shared and no one knows that better than sunkist sunkist grows the type of citrus? You can't wait to peel or add your favorite recipe. That was just missing that one thing and with over forty citrus varieties. You'll never run out of things to share or people to share with all your friends coming over for game. Night or book. Club or your. Next big pre game there's a citrus cocktail mocked hailed dinner and dessert for all of it. However you share and whoever you share with sunkist will be there to make it a whole lot. Sweeter learn about all forty of sunkissed delicious citrus varieties like CARA CARA oranges minneola. Tange ellos blood oranges and more at sunkissed DOT COM sunkissed share. What's real now for our final story of the day? The armed suspect who was killed after hijacking a Dallas area bus on Sunday has been identified as thirty one year old. Ramon Thomas Villagomez Fox News. Four reports of Villagomez was also wanted in connection with the April seventh murder of his girlfriend. Forty-one-year-old Catherine Menendez and in addition he was facing charges of aggravated assault on a relative Dallas area. Rapid Transit Police say the incident began at approximately eleven on Sunday when an armed suspects got into a dark bus in Richardson after firing several shots and chattering some of the vehicle's windows. There's only one other passenger on the bus at the time. The suspect reportedly ordered the driver at gunpoint to take them to another destination as the bus continued on the highway. Officers from multiple local jurisdictions joined the chase following the bus. Richardson through Garland to roll it. Lieutenant Pedro Byron. O of the Garland. Police told Fox News four quote. The information we received about the call was that there was an armed person aboard a dark bus holding. The driver hostage and the bus was in transit. At the time we received the call Barna went on to say that during the Chase. The suspect exchange fire with law enforcement quote throughout the entire time of the pursued. Shots were continuously being fired from inside the bus and our officers were returning fire. There was an immediate threat and danger to the people on the bus. That's why we were pursuing the vehicle officers managed to stop the bus in Rolette by using Spike Strips. Villagomez then came out of the bus still firing his weapon and was shot and killed. Two officers. Sustained non-life threatening injuries. Although there's no known motive for the crime on Monday it was released. That Villagomez also wanted for questioning in connection with the murder of his girlfriend. Catherine Menendez Kevin's body was discovered inside her San Antonio home on April seventh. She died from multiple stab wounds. Villagomez was also facing charges of aggravated assault in Brasilia County in connection with an attack on a relative before we go we have an update on Lori. Valo the saga of Valo and her new husband had debacle beginning November when police in Idaho became aware of the disappearance of Alos two children. Jj Velo entirely Ryan are still missing. And the search for them uncovered. A series of suspicious deaths among the victims were depot's former wife. Tammy who died only weeks before he married Valo valves former husband Charles from whom she had separated was shot and killed in self defense by lauries. Brother Alex both of the deaths are being reinvestigated. New emails obtained by Fox. Ten news show that while Lori and Charles were separated. Laurie Maeve attempted to lock Charles out of his own life insurance policy so he wouldn't be able to remove her as a beneficiary. The emails obtained by Fox. Ten news written by Charles Valo on February twenty six two thousand nineteen and addressed the banner Insurance Values Sister K. Woodcock told news ten the same month. Her brother told her that he wanted to make the sole beneficiary of his life insurance policy. According to the emails when Charles Valor tried to make changes to his policy he ran into an unexpected problem. Someone had contacted the company on February twentieth pretending to be Charles and added a password protection to the account. Couldn't change the policy. Without knowing the code one email reads quote. I just tried to change the beneficiary all my life insurance policy to my sister. I was informed by the Insurance Company. That a pen was placed on my account on February twentieth. This was not by me. I requested an investigation as I believe. It's my soon to be ex wife who plays the password on the account. I WANNA change the beneficiary to my sister. I have an order of protection against Laurie. Valo as she's physically threatened my life in the past thirty days in another email vallas banner insurance to supply them with records of the February twentieth. Interaction quote someone called into your office on February twentieth pretending to be me instead of pin on my account. It was not by me or anyone. I asked to do this. I suspect that it was my soon to be ex wife Lori. Valo if I can get a copy or transcript or recording the call. It would help me in my legal matter with her eventually. Charles Valid did regain control of his policy and change the beneficiary from Laurie. Valo to a sister three days after the emails were sent on February twenty-ninth Bello filed for divorce from Laurie. Valo the divorce filing contain the following statement quote on January twenty ninth during a phone conversation between the parties after their physical separation. Mother informed father that she was signed by God to carry out the work of the one hundred and forty four thousand at Christ Second Coming July twenty twenty and the father got in the way of her mission. She would murder him. That's it for today's episode of Sword and daily. We'll see you back here tomorrow and until then stay safe. Sorting scale daily is an incongruity media production. Your host was Ryan Williams Research and writing by Hagar Barack executive producer. Mike if you like the show subscribing review if you'd like to write us with feedback or suggestions use the email address daily it's Windscale dot com. Do you need something to listen to next. We'll check out this other show from cast media. Hi I'm Jacob Tula I'm Jamie BB and we're your host of circle talking if each episode. We're going to bring you a new stock in case covering the INS and outs of each stocker their victim and their stores in. How does he have any weapon? What does he is it? A gun nine. She hated me so much. She found my stepmother Brendan her and then was caught. Making a plan to attack me with my stepmother he shows up to my gallery and he's wearing a space suit. He looks at me and he goes. You look like Jessica Rabbit from the Fifth Element and then he looks at me very intensely and he goes and I'm GonNa Stock You. We hear about the cops not really doing anything or not. Really caring about the crimes stock. There's a lot of the shame talkers. The Predator who'd been stalking me for forty four years was starting to really interfere with my life and my freedom a lot more than he had been one of those random messages on my damn it was like. I'm coming and I'll see you on this date responding today and then it was like a verification of a fly got sent all of a sudden. I hear a knock at the door. I opened the door and their day. Six foot something gentleman standing in front of me with a backpack and he looks at me and he said. Are you Erin kind of panicked? Because this isn't Larry. He followed me to my work and he grabbed me. Push me in the door and was I. I'm block unblocked may be blocked me. I'm Jamie BB. Strictly stocking marriage on January twenty first. We subscribe on Apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts like God. This person won't stop texting me calling me just keeps showing up everywhere. And that's when it's like you're like Oh shit.
BONUS: Alleged RCMP spy case rocks intelligence services
"I'm trying to winter and I'm almost law welcome to chosen family. Every second week we talk about art sexuality and identity with a special guest usually queer here but not always completely struggled coming out to my parents as a comedian being in the entertainment industry for a Middle Eastern people is unheard of affecting change requires requires people to shake it up listened to chosen family wherever you get your podcast. What sign are you by the way area of course I love it. This is a CBC podcast. Hi everyone just to say that we recorded this episode earlier in the week but we had to blow it out because there was so much breaking news this week but this is such an incredible story with very real potential consequences for Canada so we're running it today as a bonus bonus episode off the earth. EMP Canada's intelligence agencies and even our international allies curling grappling with the same troubling annot and just how many of our vital intelligence secrets are at risk all because of one man accused of betraying the federal police from within and and this guy will be rcmp says he has access to a lot of secrets the news of his arrest has shaken many people throughout the rcmp particularly in federal policing that was the RCMP Commissioner speaking about cameron or tooth he was the director general of civilian RCMP intelligence unit and on Friday. He was basically charged with planning to share government secret. Mr Artists had access to information the Canadian intelligence community possessed he also had access to intelligence originating from our partners both domestically and internationally his old boss is now say that Ortis was in contact with the the criminal underworld a shady encryption company based in BC that was used by murderers and drug cartels around the world. Today we'll get the details from the CBC's Catherine Tiny. She saw some secret documents that laid out the possible damage caused by orbits. It's not good and later exegesis analysts Stephanie Carvin. Marvin will tell us just what this could mean for Canada's national security. I'm Jamie poem. This is front knbr Hi Catherine Hi. Thanks so much for being here today. Thanks for having me so. This is a crazy story about some of the world's most carefully guarded secrets and there's a lot that we don't know so much so that we weren't sure if we could talk about this for twenty minutes dance earlier this week but you have changed that for us. You got your hands on some documents. Thank you very much. No Problem Grad excellent journalism skills so so. Let's go through what we do know today. Tell me who is Cameron Artis. Let's start here yet. He's really been described as a rising star within the RCMP NPR still trying to get a sense of who the person is behind these charges people who knew him and knew of its work that he was really well known in the intelligence world and he was well well respected Lotta people when we call them to ask them about this case. Everyone seems shocked. Everyone is stunned and Ottawa and people that knew him back in university also say hi this is the last person that you thought would be charged with this broad strokes the allegations are that he obtained stored processed sensitive information we believe with the intent to communicate to people that shouldn't be communicating it to other reports suggest that he was super close with Paulson the last commissioner of the RCMP. He seemed committed to the cause. I'm and that's not the kind of person you expect to be charged with preparing to pass on information charge so let's talk for a minute about what he did at the RCMP. What's what was his role there. Yeah you were a bad guy and you were trying to create recruit Ruta Molnia. RCMP Cameron's face up on your wall. That's how well connected you with this was the NFL draft if you wanted to get your hands on top information mation so he said he was director general of this intelligence unit within the RCMP and basically I think a lot of people might think that you know the rcmp call every today and then ceases called and they're all talking non exactly what happens information is shared just at the top levels of our intelligence agent rate so very very very small circles of yes. You want you WANNA. Keep that tight so you know an officer. Constable on the street doesn't necessarily know the information that ceases has that's how our intelligence agencies work and when when you say like if you're a bad guy and I would imagine sort of a foreign actor to mention it had on and totally and you've got all these photos of the people that you might WanNa try hi and and you know get on your side and the Canadian government would not be a wall full of photos right no the the act that he's charged under the security any of Information Act. It only covers a small amount of people. We've been trying to get the number I'm they. Don't tell us that information because that kind of hint at how many people are covered by this but some estimates are like only maybe a thousand people kind of clearance and even the RCMP. You'd be so top level so a very small amount of people knew what he knew Let's go over what kind of secrest does this guy have access to he had access almost all the top secrets in Canada and the lot of secrets from our allies as well so basically his unit within the RCMP. The coordination center he would have had access to rcmp the operation he also would have known what ceases and so those are two spy agencies basically they would have also shared information with him and he also had access to our allied information so I'm information from our five is ally in the UK the US Canada of course Australia and New Zealand and and we have basically a free flowing stream of information so when when you say like operational information and information from our allies are we talking about you know. Intelligence is operatives sources who've been talking to say that he would have known codenames he would have known about sensitive sources documents that we have are really concerned that he knew the methods kids are doing they're fighting techniques and how are agencies work and of course the whole point of being a spy is that you're not supposed to be reveal then right. That's the whole point of the codename and you don't want to know how you work. Everyone is trying to figure out how everyone else is working to. You're trying to keep that under wraps so he had access he he knew from the techniques. He knew where the bodies were buried. That's the type of information that he had access to so the sounds like a largely respected guy with a pretty extraordinary job he had access to an extraordinary amount of information and now he's been arrested and charged with these very serious crimes lots of questions this week but as I mentioned at the top of this conversation you've got your hands on some documents and tell us a little bit more about these documents I what are okay yeah so. They're basically briefing documents and that were prepared. After his arrest their partial document I was only able to look at some of the pages and and I probably should have been a little bit more chill about this but they're so gobsmack and the interesting. I like at one point. I had to cover my mouth and just go. Oh my God oh my God I was reading them so basically there's a preliminary assessment that are spy agencies have done obviously happened just within the last few days he was arrested on Thursday and and the assessment says that the information that he had access to quote goes to the heart of Canada's sovereignty and security so so important not not surprisingly the the risk assessment right now is leveled ranked at high in capital letters in case you doubted it high all capital letters and basically exclude says that you know if this information had gotten out it could cause grave injury to Canada's national interest we are aware of the potential risk to operations of of our partner agencies in Canada and abroad and we are working in partnership to ensure mitigating strategies are in place. We recognize that these allegations Gatien's if proven true are extremely unsettling. If this had been leaked it also could have led to the discovery of sensitive sources and methods I with grave consequences okay and we'll talk about this in a minute because you know spoiler alert we don't actually know if he was successful or not but these documents since say he was involved with a company called. Phantom secure communications and so what is Phantom Secure Communications. Yes this is a Canadian company. Anthony and that was under investigation for basically providing encryption services to international crime groups the US Justice Department has charged the head of a Vancouver encryption option company in taking part in a conspiracy to sell illegal narcotics around the world so encryption. I can send you a message. You can see it. I can't get access to it and it's all kind of garbled and there's different ways of doing it and there's ways to do that are above board and there are ways to do it that are bored so basically this company was accused purposely asleep offering services to crime groups so that people could organize murders and smuggling drugs and very very bad things it's actually an FBI lead investigation in two thousand eighteen they kind of get this guy that they've been after named Vincent Ramos on they arrest him and then through that investigation they find I'm an email on his computer earth where someone has written to saying you don't know me. I have information that I am confident. You will find very valuable so cloak and dagger yeah exactly and then another email talks about how this person could provide. Intel about your associates and individuals using their network internationally and from the documents that we've seen an increasing abusive the charges and the and the arrest the authorities believe that that person was cameron artis who's reaching out Okay okay so just to make sure I understand this. We've got this company called Phantom Secure Communications and they were basically running this company before they got busted by the FBI offering all of these encryption services to criminals and when they bust it they find these emails that they trace back to cameron artists and again just reiterate what we mentioned before we don't know if he actually handed over this information to the guy who was running phantom secure communications. No this is obviously the charges the case of trying to make that he was doing the reaching out you know I think when this case first broke everyone's we've questioned like why did someone do something. We're always looking for the motive and you know I think people I was getting like Oh. Maybe he's being blackmailed. We still have to find out what happens in a court case from these emails that we've seen it appears that he was the one that was you know doing the flirting right okay and you can get charged with just as you say doing the flirting. Eh Yeah the charge sheet in itself tells an interesting story so in Twenty fifteen he's charged with. Luckily communicating operations not with the porn entity. It looks like it's someone domestic as one expert told me like that could be done to secrets because because he had been covered by this he had to take basically a lifelong oath that he would keep Canada's secrets security guard at the lakes. Some thousand people are covered by what you know do you. You're covered under this act. You're serving her country and you know a lot and you gotta keep your mouth shut exactly yeah so in two thousand fifteen. They are alleging that he did communicate eight some kind of operational information. We don't know what that is and we don't know who it is. Then there's a gap and then there's a slew of charges pickup between September of two thousand eighteen until this month so very recent and that has to do with preparing to give information over the preparing to give him permission so I'm mm it has to do with obtaining information and retaining and that one is with the purpose of giving it to a foreign entity or a terrorist organizing okay and we don't know what that foreign foreign entity or terrorist organization is right you know we tried to get questions out of the commissioner yesterday understandably. There's the case is still ongoing. We're going to have to wait for a lot of that information. Okay Okay and how could he have gotten this information out. Is it like taking his information and copying onto a hard drive is printing it out on a computer without I think it's a big question that everyone including our five is allies have about this case officers did enter his condo last month as part of their investigation and they saw that he had access to network that he was not supposed to have access to at home and that he also was using basically at the back door to get to the dark web on. That's that's noted in some of the documents we have basically it's a program that you can use to hide your identity while you search the dark which basically were some of the worst wheeling and dealing online ago so it sounds like he was trying to take steps to to make sure that his identity was not revealed in this space and we know that he had handwritten documents. It's they found this document in his room and it just had the project and it was underlined. make this project. This is GonNa be the title of a movie someday I mean I don't WanNa make light of this because it sounds like it is what makes this case so interesting some details and the access says that he had an anonymous document there were instructions about how to wipe some of the information that he had how to clear the Meta data from PDF's for example so think how that information ended up in his condo will be a big part of the investigation. It'll be a big question for our five allies. We've found out basically the day day that that the charges were related that already the virus were sniffing around Katherine. You mentioned before everyone's trying to figure out why they're so so we have no sense of motive right now. No nothing confirmed Um. Ottawa is basically like high school where everyone loves to gossip and speculate on but nothing on the record at the moment Brenda lucky. You wouldn't answer questions about this. we know from in documents that back in two thousand thirteen headed debt of over ninety thousand dollars that might suggest. I'm of finances were were part of the motivation but it's still still very unclear unclear. Nothing confirmed why he was doing this. I don't know ninety thousand dollars doesn't seem like a ton of money to me. Not You know again to want to get into speculation territory but if I and I need grand on my credit card I might be paying anyways possible that we'll see more charges coming to yeah. They've been very clear that this case is still ongoing and you know some as I said before the some information was removed from the document we know from talking to sources that it's been kind of hard for them to crack some the encryption again well. That's that's a long problem for yards and other police forces as they try to investigate crimes online yes so the door is still open to charges. Case is not not closed and he's back in court on Friday so hopefully we'll get some more information catherine. Thank you so much for this as a wild wild story and I hope that you'll be back on the padre really soon taking us through more details here sexy sexy story. Thank you so much. Thank you okay so after talking to Catherine. I have some more questions just about the impact of all of this. You know essentially how big a deal is this and for a few minutes. We're just GONNA call up Stephanie Carvin. She is a national security. Experts used to work at ceases and so let's get her up on the line now Stephanie. Hello Hello thank you so much for doing this. I always love talking about national security so thank you. I know and I'm sure this week. You've been talking about it. A Lot. You yourself are an expert in this as you have tons of sources in the intelligence community and I think what I need to understand here is how big a deal is this practically the potential take this to be the worst spy scandal in Canaan history is there and there are people who are genuinely worried that at this is something that could take years for the community to recover from given the kinds of information that Mr Orcas had access to and the the amount of time that he was at the RCMP so the reality is I'm not even sure the community itself knows what it's dealing with yet and it's very nervous nervous and and when you say years to recover from like if this was a spy movie and I was watching it I think right now I would be seeing a bunch of people in cities all all over the world packing their bags heading to an airport because they could be compromised and is that realistic. Is that what we're talking about here unfortunately yes simply because of the institution where Mr Ortiz was he was at this very unique walled off place within the RCMP. He was regularly coordinating with people who were involved in criminal investigations on very high profile. You know different missions. He would have in some ways. A friend of mine was calling it. The Crown Jewels basically the lifeblood of an intelligence service is sources says a methods and this person have access to sources and methods. Do you know anything about what the RCMP is doing right now or any of our other intelligence agencies agencies. I it's hard to say specifically is that no one will share that with me but the immediate need is to figure out just how much information was leaked over this period eight of time. They need to figure out how much of that was allied information so we can warn our allies about what their missions are potentially compromise a bit as as well. I think you know in the bigger picture. They also need to figure out. How did this happen. you know normally people in these situations are subject to rigorous security evaluations every five years when they're recruited. They go through security evaluations. So was there something that was missed okay. was there a technical wizard or some kind of technology or procedure. That could have been used to have prevent this from happening so I think these are the things they need to do but there's no doubt in my mind the community itself is it is shaken a will of course continue on but the big picture here is that the intelligence and national security has to operate on trust. You have to believe it's at the person you're working with has the best interest of Canada in mind when you find someone. You've trusted like that doesn't have that in mind. It's really I I think disheartening right. I do WANNA know to none of these. Allegations have been proven in court you mentioned our allies and that they potentially have been compromised here as well and look what happens now. Do our allies turn off the taps do they stop sharing secrets with us. Should we be concerned about that. I think we have to be concerned about that. The context here is that Canada of course is an intelligence consumer so in other words we take in more intelligence that we give to our allies so even you know. I don't think we're going to turn off the taps frankly. US security is guaranteed when Canada is safe to so they're going to make that we still have the information that we need but even just a slowdown slowdown in the information that we're getting could be very detrimental to our ability to do good policy making and we're for our leaders to be able to make important important decisions so there's going to have to be a lot of reassurance but I think there's another big picture here. which is that all of the five is have had recent scandals there there was? I remember a colleague of mine. Who went said if you want to know what the CIA is thinking just wait three days in it'll be in the New York Times? We're not the only country to have this problem Oakland but I think the fact that we are an intelligence consuming nation means that we have to be a little bit more on guard about how we treat. This exchange of information nation from the states were closest with. We're not alone but at the end of the day. It doesn't matter if our allies have problems. We have to worry about ourselves and here. I worry worry that we failed. Okay Stephanie Fig you so much for putting this into perspective for me. I really appreciate it eight. Thanks for having me alright so that's all for today. I hope you enjoyed this bonus episode and that you're having a good weekend. See You on Monday for more C._B._C. PODCASTS Goto C._B._C. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.
Dogs With (Dangerous) Jobs
"Cops using dogs to hunt criminals as a practice as old as London constable sniffing, Jack, the ripper and drug detection dogs are as old as the war on drugs as training methods become more complex, though their jobs become more specialized and there's a new question of where the line is between using dogs natural skills to help catch crooks and save lives and protecting the health of those dogs who can be trained to do anything for a partners approval. And so into this comes a new drug and a new crisis for years on despite all the work that's been done including this safe injection site. We're learning the opioid overdose. Problem isn't getting better. In fact, it may be getting worse. Thousands of lives per year hanging in the balance. So the RCMP has begun training their dogs to detect fennel, but fennel is so dangerous that one slip up could kill a dog. Tasked with sniffing it out. So how exactly do you train a dog for that kind of danger? And who makes the call on when to deploy an animal that obviously can't properly understand exactly what it's been asked to do. Are we asking too much of man's best friend or is this just a fair price to pay in the midst of an epidemic of lost lives? I'm heath Rawlins. And this is the big story. Kyle Edwards of Maclean's had a chance to witness the MP's new training program firsthand. So Kyle we'll start with who is Kelly Kelly is a German shepherd. She's a boat a year-old. Well, she's probably over a year old now at the time of reporting the piece, but she's this gorgeous German shepherd that I got to meet in his fail Berta. And I was there late September. I think and yes, she was just starting out her training. She was about two weeks into learning how to kind of add different odors to tour it essentially like kind of feeling the different odors, become more familiar with them. So that out in the field, she'll be able to detect things like what does that training process actually like for these dogs? Oh, it's bizarre. Actually, I think when I was. Was when I was there. I was really surprised at how like it's first of all I went I walk into this kind of the RCMP's dog training headquarters. It's just outside of in his fellow Berta. When I was there. It was very foggy outside. And it's like this large facility must be several several anchors acres of land. It's huge and you pull up there. And they're they have this little garage and inside there's this weird little setup where it's kind of like in a story describe it as like a misshapen cocky rink where literally kind of looks like a hockey rink, except you know, there's like the white walls, and there's like these black things on the walls. That are connected to tubes. That contain different sense like fennel heroin cocaine what I found so bizarre about it though was that there. It's weird to see a bunch of grown men getting really excited with their dogs like really shouting really loudly at and. Every time the dog was able to safely sniff out the fed Noel that was in this container ACOG ball shootout and the whole room of like a dozen or so male police officers. Would would just burst into cheers and start petting the dog and really. Really trying to encourage dog and let her letter let Kelly. No that she did a good job. But it's it's kind of fascinating too. Because you get to see the intensity of the dog the dog really knows by only two weeks killing new absolutely knew what she was doing. You could really see the focus when she knew that fennel was locked somewhere inside that container on the other side of the wall. Like, so it's kind of like this tube. She basically sniffs the holes along the wall. And there's like a tube that connects to an odor just to find the one that has the fennel she has to find the one that has the Fenton hill. And oftentimes, you know, they they put Kong balls and all the different holes to try and confuse her to let her know because she'll maybe she'll see the Congo and think that's what I'm looking for right? But no, she's looking for something that's out on the streets hurting, a lot of people. How recent is it that the RCMP of started to have dogs sniff for the RCMP begin trials kind of like. So it goes back to maybe twenty sixteen when the. Head trainer at the RCMP's. Name is Gary creed he was kind of sitting at home one day recovering from surgery, and he's he was kind of thinking about you know, how the RCMP can kind of tackle the ever-growing trafficking of fennel and one of the ways of solving this war on drugs is through police work and not everyone agrees with that. But he was basically just kind of trying to come up with ideas of how we can do this. Because at the time there was no Suadeau odor, basically, manufactured commercially, manufactured sent that you can find for a lot of other different drugs like heroin or cocaine. Yep. Yeah. So he had been getting tons of calls from police officers across the country as well. As former dog handlers within the RCMP who are now working in the private sector, and they were asking if the dogs that he breeds and trains if they knew how to safely detect fennel, and they didn't. So he thought to himself. There has to be a way to do this. There has to be some way we can safely allow our dogs to kind of become familiar with the sense included onto their odor pallets. So he along with the RCMP's drug lab they developed this liquid solution. And this was so at the time this was in two thousand sixteen and they developed this liquid solution that so they essentially just turned the powdered sentinel that they find on the street until like a liquid. So that it wasn't something that you can necessarily inhale. It was in two thousand seventeen that they began actually training all of their dogs to properly detect fennel using this liquid solution. And so it turned out that after all the trials after all the testing the liquid solution. Feno the liquid is Fenella sensually equates to the powdered substance that they're finding on the street. So they're out there. There's some of these dogs are out there working now. Yes, right now, all of the RCMP's narcotic dogs that sniff out for legal substances across Canada of which there is about one hundred twenty. They're all currently trained on fennel. Wow. So do we have any idea yet? I guess how much of a dent this has made like how much how much fennel these dogs are responsible for and what the are Sam is hoping like they can do to get the stuff off the street. Well, I think for right now, they're really just trying to cut off the flow of feno that is continuing to enter Canadian cities and small towns, and they've had they've had some large success with it in twenty seventeen just a few months after RCMP's German shepherds were trained on trained how to seek out. Federal there were two major federal busts along the trans Canada highway in British Columbia, and they were made by a guy I was actually able to speak to at the innisfail headquarters in L Berta, his name was corporal Clayton could tell your and he's also Manitoba boy so long we got along pretty well. Yeah. It was really it was really interesting to hear hear what he had to say. So. He he he made his first bust not long after his dog. Dudes was trained was trained on feno was a bust of twelve thousand federal tablets. Okay. So actually explained to me because you talk to this guy because this is one thing that I actually don't know having never been never been stopped in and had a dog called on me. What are those? What are those bus? Look like, what are the dogs do when they get to the scene. It's really interesting. So in one case Clayton can tell your he pulled over a man for speeding. He was driving this old style van and he became suspicious of the person who is driving. I'm not sure what those indicators were. He wasn't. He didn't share those with me at the time. This was an ongoing the song going trial, but he became suspicious of the driver who was Nell dearly man and told I guess based on those grounds he said, I'm going to run a police dog around your vehicle. And so he goes and gets dudes. And so he goes and gets dudes at the back of his police vehicle, and he's basically on a short leash. She kind of holds her kind of slowly walks around the van and dudes, she'll you know, she'll do what she does. She's she sniffs along the van and while it's happening. Tell your can cut notice her her mood changing he can see certain things certain reactions that she's having so in that moment even before the final alert. He knew that. There was something in there. And wants dudes was also certain that there was something in the van not knowing exactly what it was. It could have been could have been one of a number of drugs. She gave her final Lert, which is a sit. So she just did a nice simple, sit and that gave can tell you the right to search the vehicle from the inside. And that guy in the vehicle doesn't know. But when that dog sits down he's in trouble, right? Yeah. When I was reporting the story, I really got the sense that this was something that you kind of get a really strong sense of how. How I guess sophisticated. Maybe the trafficking industry is because after the first initial search Clayton ca Tellier found nothing in the van. He looked around looking into the seats that all that stuff. There was nothing in there. It was only until he took the van to a to a garage and Chile back BC. He basically stripped the entire vehicle remove the tires started pulling apart carpets, and he removed the interior, and he started reaching his hands inside like the walls of the vehicle down like the wheel. Well, and that's where stashed he started pulling out bag after bag of basically ziplock bags full of fennel, tablets. So you had to make that call based on the fact that dog sat down to two hall that vehicle often strip down to it's like right frames? And that's the kind of relationship that these that these guys have been trained. Yeah. NFL? So like, I would wonder if like, okay? Well, maybe she doesn't have at this time. There's nothing he was absolutely one hundred. Percent. I think he had he had all the belief in the world. I think in his dog at least when I spoke to it just felt like he the you just kind of get the notice the relationship that they have it's it's really something. That's unique. Do they live together just work together? They live together. Yeah. And in many cases, when the dog this police dog will will spend about seven or nine years on the force. They start from anywhere from one to two years old, and yeah, they'll live together. And in some cases when they retire. They'll live out the rest of their lives with their handlers. The you said safely sniff fennel how dangerous is that for a dog. Oh, it's incredibly dangerous it it's just as dangerous as it is for humans for granules or two milligrams is enough to to kill a person that is like about like, four grains of salt. Okay. And they're getting their noses up to that. Anyway is more dangerous to search for them. The other drugs that are in their pallet. Absolutely. I would say so it's killing more and. More people more and more Canadians every single year. It takes such an incredibly small dose to kill a human as it does dog. Are there any regulations from the RCMP around when they will or won't send their dog into a space when there might be those, you know, grains, of salt of fennel around a lot of the officers. I spoke to basically stress the fact that they won't unnecessarily deploy their canine partners. If they see that there is a substance littered around two suspects house, if they if it's noticeably visible, and they believe it could be a dangerous situation at that point. There's really no need for them. Right. You to deploy their dog? But yeah, I mean at the same time though, I Gary creed. The head trainer of the RCMP. He was a bit blunt about it. He basically stressed that. Yes. These dogs have dangerous jobs. That's part of the reason why why they have he he said that if they wouldn't they would never. Unnecessarily expose their dogs to defend all, but if it meant saving somebody's life, of course, they would and where do animal rights groups lineup on that? According to pita who I did reach out to for the story. They were in one hundred percent support of police dogs believing that they did serve an important public service. Basically, they were however against the breeding of police dogs, which the RCMP does they had. They breed all dogs on site in near innisfail Alberta. But the L Berta society for the prevention of cruelty to animals was far less concerned about really the use of police dogs. They were in favour note concerns at all of how the animals were treated or what they were doing in their daily lives have any dogs. Oh deed in Kennedy at since the program started. No, no dogs have oh deed in Canada. At least according to Gary creed. I asked him why why that is why he thought no dogs. I've ever overdosed in Canada. He said just luck. This is a question that I don't mean in jest is this another career path for dogs that were once trained to sniff for marijuana in if not what happened to the dogs whose job it was to sniff for pot the dogs that were trained to sniff out. Hot are no longer working for the ICMP. Really? Yeah. There was about just over a dozen of them, and they were all like kind of forced into early retirement actually Clayton can tell your dog dudes who I previously mentioned with the legalization of marijuana. She was forced into retirement because they simply just couldn't have her alert anybody now walking around carrying. Yeah. Exactly. And so they were they were all forcing early retirement. I asked tell you what would happen to dudes. I don't think dues will be retiring with your she'll be spending the rest of his as at his house. But he was telling me that. He he has a homeland for her Kyle. Are they good dogs? They are good dogs. I was a little afraid of them though. Really? Yeah. I was big dogs. They're big they're fast. I I was holding a Kong ball and the dog just wanted to rip it out of my hands are at no, I think I just had his pet and he wanted it back really badly. Didn't get hurt. Now. Kyle Edwards of McLeans. That was the big story for more from us. Visit us at the big story, podcast dot CA. Check out our other episodes drop us line. You can hit us up on social media at big story podcast on Twitter on Facebook on Instagram. We are as always wherever you get your podcast. And when you get there. It's subscribe hit rate hit review, and then, you know, share a link and push it onto your friends and tell them to check out our podcast. I'm Jordan heath Rawlings. Thank you for listening. We'll talk tomorrow.
Wet'suwet'en RCMP standoff sparks national protests
"This is a CBC podcast. Hello I'm Jamie Whistle Janna so you meant honest with yourself. The bitter fight over the construction of a natural gas pipeline in northern BC Z.. Continues to escalate over the last several days the RCMP has been moving in to enforce an injunction order to allow coastal gas link to get to work on the six billion dollar projects wrestler. The dozens of people have now been arrested on whatsoever and territory where the pipeline passes through and at solidarity protests across the country. My colleague Shawntel Bell Rashard just got back from reporting on the frontlines of the standoff. DOC and today she'll explain why the stakes are so high for everyone involved. This is from Peru Hi Shantelle thank you so much for joining me today. Hi thanks for having me so I know that you just got back from the frontlines of this dispute and can you take me there. What's the scene been Lancaster? RCMP moves into enforce this injunction and clear the road road where protesters have set up camp blockades On the ground has been very chaotic where it's shifting very dynamic situation with a lot of police resources on site and then of course what tillerson hereditary chiefs and supporters who had had been dug in at a number of different sites along this forest service road that's subject to this Supreme Court injunction real heart in our minds. I've been looking at the images and videos that have come out of the standoff in the last several days. They're they're really really quite powerful. And can you describe some of them for me. Yeah there's been a lot of Chaos and and tense hence Tense moments out on that territory of police have moved into sort of a very deliberate Sort of climate or by kilometer can't can't buy camp enforcement actions and You know some of those images are people being arrested in the pitch black after the first wave of arrests happened at around four o'clock in the morning on Thursday as Victorian RPM the real issue December thirty first nineteen their images of of like big lines of of members of the RCMP's holding back people on the edge of the new police line to a Tuten. Elders are upset. They're not allowed to go into territory the consider. There's I never ever thought that we as we're told on people would ever be faced with such a crisis Sousse as we're facing today. Is this Canada or is it Syria. There've been videos of these tense confrontations between the whatsoever and supporters and police as things sort of shift and change hour by hour One of the moments that you know really I think aggravated things things for for the RCMP. Was Whim at this. One point on the the Forest Service Road Matola sports had toured without anybody noticing dissing parked all of their vehicles in this really chaotic scene. That you couldn't get across you couldn't drive made the road impassable and the police were trying to get out on the only road out of that area and came upon this scene of Mesli parked cars. They couldn't drive through and you know they there's a video of the rcmp a member of the the approaching. And saying you know if you don't get out of the way you're going to face arrest cultural processes owners okay right now. You're breaching the junction. We're helping understanding defending them. Well I just asked for station before you now you said you don't WanNa talk so I'm explaining to you that right now with his top and trying to give him a copy if the injunctions person standing there staring back at the police saying I don't know I need to copy the injunction sort of frustrated exchange where police walked away got back in their vehicles in you know in that particular moment. The police ended up getting Blocked from passing this road for hours so so lots of really tense exchanges Moments of enforcement. But then you know the weird contrast is that They're all this downtime where people are coaching. Their supporters have just been held at different for an exclusion zones by police and just Gathering and visiting with each other. And there's lots of hugs and laughter and singing and prayer and so. There's just like this very chaotic scene with these moments that seem so such a stark contrast to the the weight of. What's going on up here breath? What's up tell me a little bit about what it's like there? What the environment is like the Marines Forest Service road is just that it's Forest Service Road That sort of It's exits off highway. Sixteen which a lot of Canadians would know as the highway of tears And then it sort of curves off the highway sixteen and sort of snakes around alongside the Murray River and people refer to this The different sites where people have sort of set up permanent occupation sites or recent occupation sites as by kilometer postings. So you know there was one at the twenty seven kilometer mark. There was one at the thirty nine kilometer Lamad or market the forty four kilometer mark and Last in that line is at the sixty six kilometer mark and that's the longest standing of these Reoccupation sites the STOUGHTON wooden site. Our there is a land based healing center and so That is the last place where our CPA on Monday went in and started making arrests so they could clear the way so coastal gasoline and it's contractors can get back to work on pipeline construction. What is the significance of unison? Unison has been around for a really long time out on the territory. So it's It's at a strategic place where the unit Stoughton who are as a group within the WET SOICAN nation strategically set up a checkpoint dating back to two two thousand nine so over a decade now they started operating a checkpoint on this at bridge that crosses the Maurice River and Saying nobody can pass through this checkpoint. If you don't have the consent of the hereditary chiefs so it's really an assertion of what Sautin law which of course still exists and has existed assisted pre Canada and sort of is rubbing up against Canadian law. And so people there started this checkpoint it was to It was sort of created in anticipation one of lot of proposed pipeline activity through that area. And over the years. It's really been built up as a permanent Living site where we're now. There's a land-based land-based hewing center uses space to make our people. Strong at the residential schools were used to take the Indian child. We want to use this facility to the Indian back in our children meeting our culture that people are coming and going all the time. It's not necessarily rooted in in controlling that checkpoint but more so about this permanent presence on the land that's began by trying to assert what so it to mock too I JUST WANNA step back here and distill the story with you for a moment. You and I've talked about this on the podcast before but but for those who are just coming to this or may need a refresher at the heart of this conflict is not just a pipeline. Right as you mentioned before it's about laws and about ownership of land. Tell me more about what this is all about. Yeah absolutely so I mean I think it's overly simplistic a stick to describe it as an anti pipeline protest camps and you know then other people who are pro pipeline. They were talking about a situation where there are many truths happening at the same aim time so yes it is true that the BC's Supreme Court in order granting an injunction for coastal gas link. It is true that the courts say under a case law or the common law system. You people who are impeding access to at this approved and permited pipeline project cannot keep walking them or and and Put in enforcement orders for the CPI two to empower them to arrest people if they didn't abide by that So December thirty first in two thousand nineteen was when the court the final ruling on this case or at least at the Supreme Court level when we arrested a year ago that was under an inch junction. So December thirty first comes now it is what is described as an interlocutory Tori injunction which just means it stands okay and so December thirty first rolls around in Stoughton is still very much built up. There's a new camp that's been built up at the forty four kilometer mark mark and then there's all anticipation of of enforcement actions and so the pipeline company. Said you know wants to get in there and and do its job in his standing. By this this court decision and It does have agreements with twenty first nations along the route of this pipeline elected. Chief Dan George Burns Lake first. Nation nations signed a benefit agreement with coastal gasoline. Twenty fourteen. But he's working towards equity ownership of the pipeline won't need any money from Ottawa anymore. We can run our our own businesses by ourselves under our own condition. So I think it's going to help a lot of first nations get out of poverty in the North End. That's where you see this tension between Green The colonial sort of system of governance imposed on indigenous people versus You know systems of government that have existed before Canada was was the thing so with the whatsoever and specifically they are still under the Indian act system and so their nation as they would find themselves has been broken up into six Indian enact bands all with their own chief counsel systems and five of those six bands did sign agreements with coastal gas link Which means they receive direct financial initial payments for it and they receive contracting opportunities but at the same time the whatsoever and hereditary chiefs are like no no no like you don't have authority Indian Act Band Council to make these types of decisions off reserve right and so because the pipeline doesn't go through any reserve land it's in the traditional territory royal the wet Soican nation which you know they do have weight when they say that they do have a Supreme Court of Canada decision behind them? We're talking about the Delta Mook Decision Right Dell Komo Kyya so and that's really seeing like the the lack of resolution from a from a Supreme Court of Canada decision from nineteen ninety-seven where the that gets an hereditary. Choose and so tim. Hereditary chiefs cl- together went to the court demanding sort of a ruling on their rights and title. And the court did. Confirm saying you know. Nobody ever signed a treaty with you. You've never seated or surrendered title your rights entitled to Your Land With Your traditional little territory and then up at the court couldn't say okay so now we say you have rights entitled to the slander particularly title. They punted it back to the whatsoever nation and and the governments in Canada. The Canadian governments to say you guys need to go in and figure this out and that still hasn't happened and I think that's really at the root of what we're seeing. Is this unfinished business of Nation Building and government to government relationships at a time when we're hearing so much talk about the United Nations Declaration on the rights of indigenous in his people Supporting first nations to be self determining So so for a lot of people who are taking action especially in first nations across the country. I think that's really where they're seeing this fight and at the same time there are people who are saying get this thing built their jobs on the line there billions of dollars on the line here with this project objects that went through the process and got all of the permits and approvals that it needed to do its work right. It's an untenable situation then true on both sides and also you know You mentioned the the UN Declaration on rights of Indigenous People. Were also talking about reconciliation a lot in in this country as well which is a question that has come up consistently through this controversy more troops Warren Beatty troops organs reconciliation and is at the center of these protests. That we're seeing around the entire country right now. Tell me a little bit about what we've been seeing the last couple of days. Ace Yeah we've been seeing Actions pop up all over the place for civil disobedience sit ins protests. I know here in uncover the you know the port Vancouver entrances were blocked Vancouver. Police release them numbers. They said there've been with thirty. Three arrests brass The delta porter was blocked railed blockades have been showing up. There's a sit in with indigenous youth who'd occupying at the front of the legislature and they. There are demanding that the CPI leave the area. And and I think at the same time maybe part of that unrest is that there isn't any clear clear resolution to this dispute as it stands you know with people dug in positions in in government in in the courts in all these things all these truths that are happening at the same time have created this scenario where we hear a lot of talk about people wanting a peaceful resolution to this but increasingly or you're continuously not really seeing how that may be possible if this project continues along that route and oh it. totten remained adamant in their position. Asian those arrested on Thursday and their supporters say despite the police action. They're not going anywhere because there are no way back. You can rest us. You can try to move us from the territory you can remove us from the territory violently and we will always come back. The I suppose the question I have here though is how many more options the whatsoever tin hereditary chiefs have here. Seems like this is getting very close to the end of the line here. UNICEF start but in is near the end of the line now yeah absolutely I mean so it just passed into Stoughton is where coastal gasoline is. rain on construction schedule. Want to get in there to build up this this encampment area for for pipeline construction to happen this summer and so once they get free access to moved through that road. You know they're going to start doing the work that scheduled right now Abbott at the same time you know it's it's a big territory and the what's out today With those arrests that happened with free to Houston being arrested among others. They said you know we asked. We may be arrested but this is not over. It's hard to know what they plan to do. Okay and tell me you're free to Houston is oh so Frida is significant in all of this is sort of the longtime I spokes person at the student checkpoint site and now the healing center. We're not protest camp our home under coming to invade my home today and that gets my door and she is one of actually the named defendants in the initial court application that coastal gasoline put into the courts for this injunction so she and Smuggled Gum who's a hereditary chief within the nation were actually the two named defendants That that it went to court on this case and so people were glued to this livestream. That people were putting out on facebook today and sort of this connection kept cutting in and out. It's a remote area and they're using satellite and trying to livestream what was happening. You could see a group of women they were standing under this arch arch with fire and drumming and singing. All the awhile. Police were moving in on them so we heard that. RTP had serve helicopter members in behind the checkpoints and then they had rcmp on the bridge. Moving they're boxed in and these women just stood there drumming and singing and one by one. We're being taken away by police. And at the end as the arrests were being made Freda was was the last person standing there and when the by the time the police were approaching her. She wasn't drumming anymore. She was just standing there dancing and singing at the top of her lungs and was sort of quietly. Quietly led away by police singing as she went. Amen- you could see you're walking into the distance and in the back their red dresses lined up along this road which was a symbol for missing murdered indigenous women and girls so the symbolism of all of this was quite powerful for people who were watching and sympathetic of people who aren't probably like great finally But for those who are engaged in these actions you're across the country that was hugely symbolic and there was a gate at At UNICEF that's her leads in and it was some wooden structure and they're also images of a police cutting cutting through it and so from their side they'd necessarily see what they were cutting through but For moonstone and looking outward. Where'd you could see that? They had put a sign up. That said reconciliation. That was just sawed right down the middle as they took took apart gate so the symbolism right now of what is happening happening was was really poignant in watching that livestream and witnessing what was happening as as free to was the last person led away at least as far as I've seen so far by police and taken into custody and are we hearing anything from governments here the BC provincial government and end the federal government. Not A lot. I mean all leading up to this the government Your did attempt some deescalation stuff to NBC. And the chiefs and three intermediary with Nathan Cullen in the mix for bit and then those talks failed to come to any peaceful resolution and after that I am not aware of any further dialogue. They're having the province John Horrigan holding his first news conference of the New Year. There are agreements from the peace country to Kim with indigenous communities that want to see economic activity activity of prosperity. Take place all the permits are in place for this project to proceed. We'll be proceeding and the Fed seemed to be pointing back to the provincial government. Saying this is all within provincial jurisdiction. So this isn't about us and this is for BC to sort out. Okay and you mentioned Nathan. Cullen this is the former and EP. MP and what is the company thing about all of this I mean for coastal gas length. They they've maintained a long that they want to see a peaceful resolution and they also. I can't delay you know getting in that area and doing construction work. They have construction timelines to me. They have commitments to this pipeline built They have expressed disappointment -pointment at some points along throughout this process and the last number of weeks kept insisting that they were offering to meet with the hereditary chiefs and that that invitation has been rejected to time and time again by the hereditary chiefs. Who've said they have no interest in meeting with a proponent and they would only like to sit down and speak with decision makers at the federal and provincial? The government Good to talk to you a little bit about the RCMP here There have been all these arrests that we've been seeing and there are concerns that the standoff could undermine this already fraught relationship between the police and indigenous communities and to the officers on the ground not mindful of that I think it depends on which person definitely some who appear that their patience is running a bit thin and quite growing crate frustrated with the actions that they're trying to control of people on the territory and others who were sort of trying to maintain this dialogue with With the chiefs here. We're willing to speak with me officers. Who are who are great and calm and composed others who are growing? You can see their frustration at times. And then I'm I'm just the tension is just something that's difficult to describe but it certainly at play Is there a fear that this could really escalate here that this could end in didn't violence I think that's been a fear all along I think that's evident in how many times people describing what's going on there. The company The our senior. Can you govern like governments from from BC the federal government. What's ten talking about? How we we will remain peaceful? We want a peaceful resolution. And when you hear that word peaceful being used aspirational so many times it really sinks in that there is a very real risk of of things not going peacefully peacefully Shantelle. Thank you so much. Thank you Okay so before. Are we go today. Remember that glorious moment last summer when the Toronto Raptors took the championship at or Oracle Arena in Oakland California and then as raptors president president massage tried to make his way to the court a California police officer accused of assaulting him. Well that officer is now suing for damages damages. This comes after the elevated district attorney said. No charges would be filed against you jerry stemming from the incident after that decision miss I said quote. I'm happy that this is now behind me and I look forward to the task of bringing another championship to the city of Toronto. Looks like he may have spoken can too soon but on the championship front right now. The wraps have the third best record in the NBA. So never say never. That's all for today. I'm I'm Jamie Poussin. Thanks so much for listening to front burner and talk to you tomorrow. Look For More C._B._C.. PODCASTS GO C._B._C.. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.
After backlash, a public inquiry into the Nova Scotia mass shooting
"Hi I'm Dr Brian. Goldman. If you haven't heard my new podcast, the dose, this is the perfect time to subscribe. Each we answer your most pressing health related questions, and right now we know you're grappling with covid nineteen. On those, we bring in top experts to answer your questions about the corona virus and post some of our own get the latest evidence in a way that's easy to understand by subscribing to the dose. It's your guide to getting through this difficult time. You can find the dose wherever you get your podcast. This is a CBC podcast. Hi I'm Joshua. On April, eighteenth and nineteenth of this year. Twenty two people were killed in a horrific shooting spree that began in the small community of poor to pick Nova Scotia. Scotia RCMP, say they have identified an active shooter all started with multiple firearm calls at Porto, pick hosts down this country road trying table details out of police. But what they have given us as a photo and suspect description. This is the man they now seeking Gabriel Wortmann, the rampage went on for thirteen hours ending at a gas station in Enfield one hundred and fifty kilometers away where the gunman was shot dead. Dead. By police, there's been a lot of questions about the RCMP's response to what happened and the forces handling of past complaints about the shooter for months. Families have been calling for more answers. The federal and provincial government initially promised at joint independent review into what happened. But after widespread criticism, a full public inquiry will now take place. This comes at a time when we could be learning more about the shooter from newly unredacted court documents. Today, we're joined again by CBC Nova Scotia's Brett Ruskin on these latest developments. This is from per. Hello Brett. Josh. Brett for the family of the Victims Killed By, Gabriel. Wortman over three months ago. What are the most important questions that remain unanswered? Questions. That they want answered. The question on everyone's mind is is really why did this happen? That's a question that likely will never be answered, but I guess the. Questions are around us, how people responded to it, how the police responded to it, what the communication was like a before the shooting, and after the shooting, those are kind of firmer questions. The you can really dig into, and that's really what the families are hoping to take more in depth information out of and so they the families as far as as we've heard so far they They WanNa know what the police knew about this shooter before he began opening fire on strangers and on neighbors, and on people that he knew on April eighteenth nineteenth, they want to know what the overall response was by RCMP to get a better picture as to what officers were doing where and when. And finally more details about the general communication communication between our impede and other police forces in the province in generally communication between the S&P and the public. Not Let my wife leaves the door yards. If I had that broadcast come across that he was on the loose, this is what I can't get over. Why wasn't there a phone alert? We've had you know tested and everything else I've heard before, keep money rcmp new hours before they made it public that there was a gunman on the loose who looks like and. And RCMP officer, who was you know dressed in an rcmp uniform who is driving vehicle to looked identical twin RCMP vehicle, and they did not disclose that certainly not right away and it was not disclosed anywhere beyond the confines of twitter They didn't use the public alert system to notify the public of this threat Darren Campbell with the Nova Scotia. He was asked today about people who are upset about the lack of a warning or you know an alert going out the have every right to ask those questions. they have every right. To be angry. Public Trust. As I said is is is so important and. It's not something that you you. It's gained easily. It takes a lot of work and it's lost very easily. So last week, the provincial and federal governments announced this joint independent review to look at some of these questions to look at the causes context and circumstances that that led to the mass shooting in April. But there was this huge backlash from families of the victims and the federal government now says, it will move ahead with a full public inquiry. How are the families reacting to to this latest news? Yes, I don't think it can be understated the immediate uproar that happened when the when the review was announced because for months. The families and supporters of the families have been calling for a public inquiry they have. Unanimously been very clear, and so when this review was announced Certainly weren't happy. made their voices heard made their voices heard online and then in person protests. Marches in bridgewater Monday vowed to keep pressing until the victims. Families got the public inquiry. They wanted in Halifax and bridgewater and other places. In the province. We have compiled twenty two reasons why public inquiry is necessary? Number One. Because twenty two people including a pregnant woman were murdered in less than twenty four hours, and each of these murders was preventable. List of government to decide what information the families can handle. But. We all want. Fruits Gut, it's too late to protect those families and our province from the realities of that terrible weekend. It's not too late to make sure it never happens again. And eventually, this is kind of one of the few examples that we can point to in. So many different. Policies and aspects of government and public life that the government said, Hey, listen, we are going to listen to you and very quickly from Friday's announcement to I suppose Tuesday afternoon made the decision to scrap the review and launch this inquiry and Premiere Stephen McNeil joins us now live to talk about all this earth. Thanks for being with US tonight, what is going on here? What we're seeing now I think is what the families in Nova Scotia's one, it was both levels of government the table with an inquiry that gives that inquiry the ability to call. All. A. Affected witnesses, they require all agencies going forward and that's something. Family members that we've heard from so far are certainly happy that this announcement was finally made, but there is that undertone of frustration that it took. So long to get to this point for them. I would say, I'm sorry if the process created more anguish for you, but that is a no way. What our government wanted to do or quite frankly anyone involved in this process at all levels of government I can tell you through this entire process Our focus has been in trying to get the answers that we continue to hear from families, vote What happened. Well, what exactly is the difference between an Indivi- an independent review panel versus this this full public inquiry? Yeah because they sound the same rate, they sounded like a some kind of a general official assessment as to what happened in a specific case but but they're quite different legally. So basically, an inquiry versus a review and inquiry can subpoena witnesses can say, Hey, we think you know something about this thing we're looking into. We demand that you appear before us, the review can't do that. Doesn't have that power to force people to come and talk to them. Or inquiries well can force people to testify. Once they know bring them in to to interview them to basically put them on the witness. Stand can force them to testify under oath. I mean, those are just a few of the differences between an acquirer interview. Certainly up inquiry has more teeth to get at the truth compared to a review, and it sounds like there were real questions about how transparent review would be as opposed to an inquiry i. mean how much access the family would have to the testimony to the information that this investigation would be digging up. Oh Yeah I mean in this in this particular review, this isn't the case for all reviews, but in this particular case. The terms of reference as outlined by the provincial and federal governments dictated that all the information, all the evidence that the review would hear these kind of panel of three experts were handpicked everything. They would hear. Could remain confidential and would most likely remain entirely confidential. The only thing that we would hear about the public the media, the families would be an interim report followed by a final report. So to reports. And the kind of raw data would not be shared publicly. That was in the terms of reference. Now, is in there according to the government to try to protect the families from being re victimized? The, families came back at that and said, Hey, listen you're causing US harm. Guaranteed harm by opting for this review as opposed when a query by. To a certain degree, hiding the full extent of the truth from the public show, not only a lack of compassion, a failure to understand the basic principles of restorative approaches and trauma informed care. Saint is central to the review process. So, just a week ago, we have the government defending decision to strike this independent review panel. You mentioned, you know there's protests, there's petitions, but tell me more about what accounts for this very sudden change, of course, within just a week, and now announcing that they will go with the full public inquiry. Yes. So this was really kind of remarkable to see kind of a house of cards come crumbling down. So again, federal government. And provincial government have a joint news conference. They say we're going with a review, the Minister of Justice of Nova Scotian Bill. Blair. The Public Safety Minister. In Ottawa, announcing that this will be a review by three panelists heard calls for answers. We have an opportunity for for an earlier approach. Earlier resolutions. An an a greater opportunity to make change much quicker than we could through the inquiry process, we have heard from you. They didn't specify who they heard from but we want a review. There was no social media discussion online over the weekend and then there was the protest on Monday. That is you know. I don't WanNa say typical, but you kind of expect that from a group of people who aren't happy with something, but then on. Tuesday we saw. A group of Liberal. MP's who from Nova, Scotia represent, Nova, Scotia writings who broke rank with their own party. Keep in mind was the federal government that had announced this review, and you had federal liberal MP's suddenly on Tuesday taking the social media doing interviews on radio and on TV saying, we don't agree with our own Hardee's decision. We're joining this public discussion and And these public outcry for a public inquiry I. Mean I've never seen something like that to have a liberal. MP's Nova Scotia to say, no, we don't agree with their own party. So that was step one. One of them was was Sean Frazier representative of Central Novum 'em. So he spoke of he took to social media and then in the hours that followed that. We had the first official, a crack in the armor, basically as mixing metaphors, but The. A provincial government put out a news release. Saying if the federal government changes its mind, we would to change your mind as well. Basically opened the door saying if the federal government agrees to a public inquiry, we would agree to a public inquiry as well, and then a few hours after that, the federal government put out its own release saying, yes. Public inquiry is coming into the shooting. `Love' the. Who Lost. Loved ones are the kindest most honest reasonable people. You could every the fact that they are marching in the streets when they are not the type of people who try to second to the government. If this is one small thing that we can do as parliamentaries with our time in office is to give them closure. I'm going to my colleagues are going to do our government's going to do it. I'm Jonathan Goldstein host of wiretap each week you're invited to listen in on my telephone conversations whether funny, sad wistful or even slightly strange. You never know just what you might hear on wiretap I show I didn't think that people actually listened to it. Breath of your genius jars, it's not just that you're funny, but you can be cripplingly pointedly depressing. The Wiretap Archives available on CBC, listen spotify Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr Brian Goldman. If you haven't heard my new podcast, the dose, this is the perfect time to subscribe each week. We answer your most pressing health related questions, and right now we know you're grappling with covid nineteen on. The does we bring in top experts to answer your questions about the corona virus and post some of our own get the latest evidence in a way that's easy to understand by subscribing to the dose. It's tied to getting through this difficult time. You can find the dose wherever you get your podcast. So, this week, there's been some new information about the man behind the mass shooting Gabriel, Wortman, CBC News, and other media outlets were able to get access to these court records, which could shed some light on who the shooter was an these are testimonies given to police by witnesses who say they knew the shooter. I should note that these are allegations from court documents. So they haven't actually been tested in court, but one that jumped out to me was that Gabriel. Wortman, who is a dentist? was alleged to have traffic drugs and firearms from the US. Can you just tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah of course, what's we'll talk about the the drugs and weapons and we should just reiterate this as. Documents that CBC news and other news outlets had been able to obtain see, and these are the notes basically from when police called up witnesses or knocked on people's doors and asked, hey, did you know this shoot? What did you know about? This is what people are telling police. So as he said in no way proven in court, this is other people's opinions that police then use that information to obtain search warrants to continue their investigation now as for the. The guns and the drugs that? according to people that knew the shooter they. said to police that he had smuggled guns. So smuggled a certainly guns from the United States, as well as drug from the United States including new. Brunswick. Ten Thousand lauded pills ten thousand oxycontin pills into Nova Scotia, this is people who were speaking to police who said, yes, he was distributing this These illegal pain medications throat, the community. So. Now, to counter that the police did say you know early on in the various news conferences that they organize that they found no evidence that the shooter was profiting off of any illegal activity. Any indication that he was involved in illegal activity that would earn income on the side of his. His detrick businesses, we have nothing in terms of him being involved. I. Mean Recent Media Rickles, painting Ms some sort of underworld organized crime. figure nothing has been uncovered whatsoever. That would suggest that right or how does how does that square with what? is now now these new revelations we're discovering in these court documents. While I mean the there's one thing of having people saying Oh. Yeah I. Have a good idea I think that he's a drug smuggler versus again the police requiring the evidence to prove it. So they could both be right in this case. Tell me more about what stood out to you from these newly unredacted documents. Well I mean, there is a couple of new things we knew kind of. Eighty five percent, perhaps a these documents, and this was an additional five or ten percent we still. In its entirety. But in that small percentage that we that we did kind of have the the Black Sherp peeled away from essentially. We saw things like. Allegations and kind of repeated allegations that the shooter in both his downtown Dartmouth business as well as his cottage and shed or garage import pick had false walls. And secret compartments and different hidden areas where he was. Hiding weapons where he had storage in some areas that were not You know easily visible and I mean. This is a at least in the down Dartmouth Business example, he was running a denture neck. So people will be going in and out to get their dentures fitted and things like that, and he would have according to these documents. False walls could be something hidden behind the wall. Too so that no, one would even if there were searching the area wouldn't immediately find this. There are so many questions that family still have about what led to this mass shooting. After say that you know watching the rallies that were pushing for a public inquiry, it was clear that there's so much frustration about not having concrete answers and a lot of theories that continue to swirl around. What kind of impact does this tragedy continue to have for these families, but also for the community as a whole? In quarterback I was up there the week or two ago. There is still just a a huge memorial with with flowers and with pictures of again that the twenty two loved ones one of them being a woman who was pregnant with her unborn child. She was wonderful. She was amazing. Never Way I. said it Multiple Times. She loved she loved Dax more than life itself like it was just unreal to see. Alice. I. Know is my my wife isn't coming home and I'm not having my unborn baby. And DAX will grow up the rest of his life without a month. That's all I know. The twenty, two victims, the twenty families. whose lives were torn apart people. It seems like. Not that you would. Be Guaranteed to no one of the victims, but it seems like every one has some kind of tangential. Connection to this tragedy? I mean there. There were nurses were schoolteachers different. Amount he and mother. Friends colleagues, and family. They represented the best of the loved ones mattered. They loved the hit dreams and they contributed to this province people that you. We would see one day, and then they're they're just this void. They're not there as part of the community that we all took for granted the next day The sense of loss still certainly being felt by people but. From a less emotional standpoint, there's also There was a a manhunt underway recently in the Bridgewater area where a man had assaulted a police officer and was on the loose for a number of days, and the RCMP. In the province put out emergency alert notifications to tell people to watch out for this individual and contact police if they should see him and again, people have spoken with. And me included are thinking that you know this is an example of types of notifications that could have been put. For the to pick tragedy. Had there been a protocols in place I mean, we don't even know what the protocols were, which is why this inquiry. Will be so key to finding out and what the the chain of communication was between the officers on the ground and the decision makers who may have been kind of at the keyboard computer to send out that notification or not. So I mean, it was certainly will be instrumental. This inquirer will be to to find out exactly what happened over those two days in over the investigation that followed. A Some family members of expressed that they. They're not in a rush. You know that they would rather have this done thoroughly and properly than than get answers quickly. Yeah. and. I don't blame them, I? Mean if you're if you'RE GONNA get. The truth. I think that you would want the whole truth. Right and I think that's that's the sentiment that we've heard from family members in the last couple of days. Don't. Let's not rush it to have this review and find out some details. Let's be thorough and find out all the details we can regardless of the time line. Regardless of any of it, I want the truth regardless of how long it takes. So that. If anything like this, ever to happen again that you know. That Something's learned something needs to be learned from it and I think. It's never been a time line issue for me I just want to answer and I don't care how long it takes as long as I, get the truth. Well we will be continuing to watch closely Thank you so much for your insight into this. Thank you. One more thing before you go. On. Wednesday. The families of the Nova Scotia shooting victims along with their supporters took a celebratory march around downtown Halifax. They were responding to the news that the federal and provincial governments will now move forward with a public inquiry. Instead of a joint independent review, nick beaten WHO's pregnant wife Kristen beaten was one of the twenty two victims said that the credit for this did not belong to any politician. This was not because of the government rave from Lenore Zan rate, the top Bill Blair. This is because of the family's. Determination or drive. And the Nova Scotia since the blue nosers. Out That's it. For today. I'm Josh Block. Thanks for listening to trumper. For more CBC PODCASTS, Goto to CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.
April 23: Tee time
"Feeling stir crazy from self isolating with acorn. Tv experienced the British countryside or Australian outback without leaving the house hailed a glorious streaming service by the Hollywood reporter. Acorn TV is a must for crime drama and mystery enthusiasts for fans of broad church. You'll love David tennant's newest project dead waterfowl coming in April this series centers around a Scottish community torn apart by a dark tragedy and even darker secrets acorn. Tv is commercial free available on all your devices visit sign up dot acorn DOT TV and use code CBC FOR AN EXTENDED. Thirty Day free trial acorn TV World Class TV from Britain and beyond this is a CBC podcast. Hello I'm Carol off and I'm Chris Boden. This is as it happens. The podcast edition tonight. We speak to a retired. Mountie who responded to twenty fourteen deadly attack in Moncton New Brunswick. He says the mass shooting in Nova Scotia is bringing back difficult memories and even tougher questions. Teatime SCOTCH wants premier says many businesses should be open and golfers should be back on the links by mid-may but a former health official tells us the plan presents a serious risk not yet when hundreds of protesters gathered in Pennsylvania to agitate for that state. Jury Open our guests took part in a small counter protests. The nursing assistant says it may break down in tears that's what. Tv friends are four. Maybe not in good times but definitely in times like these two actors from the Sitcom Kim's convenience or giving fans plenty of facetime in isolation flipping his lids from our archives an interview with ninety six year old Varney Smith who was selling off his collection of hand decorated toilet seats hundreds of them and he says it was about more than just the bottom line and a tuna melt down started off a little cheesy then became increasingly fishy a United States senator discovers. He's no sandwich artist after the Internet passes judgment on his kitchen creation as it happens the Thursday edition radio at cautions any novice lunch maker against saints cleaning. Rcmp investigators in Nova Scotia. Say They still don't understand. The exact path killer took this weekend the attack left twenty two people dead and they took place over twelve hours at several locations that spanned nearly one hundred kilometers the rcmp of now acknowledged that it wasn't until Sunday morning. Many hours after several victims had already been killed that investigators came to understand suspect was dressed as an rcmp officer. Driving a replica cruiser. It's one revelation among many. That's raising serious. Questions about how the RCMP handled the attack the we Philippe -Tario has questions to he's a retired RCMP officer who responded to the Moncton New Brunswick shooting in two thousand fourteen. We reached him in Moncton. This stereo did this. We can attack in Nova Scotia. Did it bring back memories of Moncton in two thousand fourteen for you? It definitely did definitely did every time. There's a police officer getting killed especially Rcmp officer it does bring some painful memories. We remember that in Moncton Three mounties were killed. Two were injured. There were a number of reviews. Some very serious lessons learned about how things should be done differently. Better communication better training and protection for the officers do you think that the RCMP Nova Scotia applied those lessons this weekend. Well it's still early to tell but From what I see there was some breakdown in communication and you know what? The first responders members working on patrol the hallways. They're always do the best with the tools there Being given and sometimes you're in a cow You got some training years ago. You're trying to remember that training. The best you can and you trying to do the best. You can to make sense out of a chaotic situation. Where the Tough questions will need to be asked. And I don't think right. Now is the time to ask those questions but comes a time will need to ask abbvie lesson that the Moncton two thousand fourteen shooting toss ask we retain those lessons and apply those principles that the RCMP through the Making on dependent report came out with several recommendations. We apply all those recommendations. Okay let's just look at some of that because we that one things we know about Moncton that there was a great deal of confusion in that incident. There was four central communication Leadership they weren't the officers didn't know what they're going into the outgunned. They didn't wear their armor. They didn't have it in many cases. So what what? What was the command structure? This this man in Nova Scotia was on the loose for twelve hours. Do you have a sense of what the command structure was? It's it's still hard to say and IT INC the command structure wasn't much different than just a regular detachment manny Up until they realize that we're facing something greater than just Just a regular arm site. The question that's going to have to be asked is. When did they switch from just a regular manning from calling out from all over the province so yes that that location is quite isolated but within two hours? You're reaching pretty much anyone. In that part of Voice Nova Scotia you could potentially get multiple officers backup and services but when was the time that they called trae help and in Moncton? That was the case. Wasn't that there. Were just dozens if not a few hundred officers and police That arrived at that scene. Did you see that in Nova Scotia on the weekend? Well I wasn't in Nova Scotia so I don't know but from the media footage they did get some help but the first time I realized it was a lot of officers on the seat is when you saw the emergency response team at the gas station. probably looking like they're surrounded the suspect. That's when I realize that there's more officer deploy but when I first woke up In the morning from what I see on the news. We're still looking for the shooter. They didn't know what was going on Did they deploy the resources? The AD access to was their lack of leadership. I don't know what I can tell. You is dead from reports from what I R- people on front line did not offending job. They did the best they can but the did the leadership did a management. Were they able to use their good judgement and say oh maybe this situation is out of her end is out of control. We need to ask elite that to the next level and pull all the resources we can onto that situation. The course we know is that there was a constable killed constable. Heidi Stevenson another one officer was wounded. Do you know anything about have. You do understand how that might have happened. If she had the equipment she needed. You say they do the best with the tools they're given did she have what she needed. AB no information whatsoever on the equipment that she had at that time however I know what the FBI has gone a long way since two thousand fourteen as far as equipping their Officers with body armor with our plate that should have been available to every officer equipping their officer with carbines. Well I think there's very I- percentage of officers Train on it. I think every officers get go through training Now in depth. Oh as training so those tools that were missing. Moncton should have been available Tour the other tool is training as well the RCMP. All since two thousand fourteen. I've got a different kind of training to respond to active shooting situation. I'm talking about the front line officers. Of course that training doesn't always apply depending on the situation but there's always also training supervisors out to window that situation and your seemed was found guilty in Labor code trial Here in Moncton were found guilty of providing adequate training to dare Employees and supervisors. These are some discussion about that. Perhaps there had been that they constable had Her car her vehicle had struck or had been struck by the shooter. Do you know anything about that. Well that's that's only rumored Rumors irked that eater. She Ran Vigo. She was She was Ram but no. I don't have any more detailed in that. But if you know if you know that there's an active shooter and that easing the car you want to take down. Deputy cool to limit is ability to move. So maybe that's what she did but once again. I don't have any solid evidence that this is what happened. All we know is that there's two cars that got Burnt to the ground. And from what? We got our one car into your car at was the car that the shooter who's driving so many questions and we'll have to leave it there for now. Mr Mr -Tario but we will be trying to find out what we can as. Well thank you so much. Thank you good evening. Louis Philippe -Tario is a retired. Rcmp officer we reached him in Moncton New Brunswick. That's what it sounded like in Harrisburg Pennsylvania. Earlier this week people. There took to the streets to protest against social distancing measures. Put in place to stop the virus and it's not an isolated demonstration protests like this have been taking place across the US in places including Michigan Washington State and Colorado. You've probably seen the pictures yet. Timothy was at the protest in Harrisburg on Monday but he wasn't part of the main demonstration. She was part of a small group counter protesting Ms Timothy is a certified nursing assistant or CNA we restore in Harrisburg Pennsylvania yet. First of all. What compelled you to go out and respond to these anti lockdown protesters. I just wanted them to see and hear the other side of of really. What's going on out there? I mean a lot of them. They're not frontline workers so they don't know any. Don't see what we see on a daily basis on really would have been a lot more people there with us but it wasn't but you know it is what it is what whoever came out you know. I'm grateful for that. It's just way too soon for us to open up new state of PA right now. We're we're still struggling our number still going up daily. I just don't understand why people don't understand and and see that it's just not time. Can you describe the scene when when the protests took place in when he went out what what did you see? What what what were people doing? What were they saying? Oh man I mean. It was so crowded down. There was so many people standing side-by-side no social distancing whatsoever. Most of no mass going cars beeping in a lot of yelling obscenities about our signs that we had up. You know. Go home or you're endangering my you know my life that's what we would have. You know the signs we had up and and they say well you're on your own lives. You build a the homeless. They would just it was just unreal the site and how many people were standing so collect literally arm in arm. Just you just what I just I mean. I broke down at one point because they don't understand how dangerous this really is. What did they say? How did they respond to you? Some that were keeping quiet to themselves. That were walking past or literally whispering in our ears. No thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. But they were. It was kind of like they were afraid to say it out loud or like to be there with us in for us so they would just literally walk past whisper others. They were just yelling yelling obscenities. The you know it's our lives our bodies we you know you got a job. Go to work every day. Why can't we think things of that nature? They don't believe where they said. They don't believe that there's any need for this day at home orders. What what's the situation right now in Harrisburg Pennsylvania? What could you tell them about if they would listen to what you're dealing with inside the hospital while there's absolutely a need for this day at home order in it? It does need to be extended. We cannot open right now at this point while I've been out of work since the twenty sixth of February because I had surgery I literally one back the day that we had the protests to pick up a double shifts through the agency on but the facility that I have been working with for twenty one years was just on the news eighteen People so far tested positive for the coke nineteen in that's residents. We have four staff members who had tested just yesterday. My daughter in this. This was really upsetting to me. My daughter also works at the place that you know that I've been at for twenty one year. And in all of this ruckus happened. She's there cheese eleven weeks pregnant. I'm losing my mind going crazy because I'm so worried about how her and she called me yesterday and says someone on the floor that she's working on now has just been tested for cool but nineteen. I. I didn't know what to do like shaking in worried and crying. And just recently gave them some some p. p. e. and of course they have to review them the little body outfits that they have won hers has a rip in it. They refused to give any other one. It literally has to be soiled for them to give you another one. You get one facemask you have to reuse that. I can't even explain the the motions that I'm going through right now. The same time we heard the president of your country. Donald trump say on the weekend. He described those the protesters that were you were confronting. He described them as quote. Great people he said. These people love our country and they want to get back to work. What would you say to the president if you could speak to how I mean how? How how are they loving the country of their loving country there Dole? We're trying to tell them to. Do you know stay. Home is not forever. It's not like we're asking for forever and yes. It's it's her over to some people you know money wise than livelihood wise but having your life is more important having the people around you live is much more important. I would think so. What is the rush to have a surge more of these covert nineteen cases become positive like why? Why would we WANNA do that? I just don't understand it why it seems though that polling that they're doing in the United States most people agree with you. They want these measures to stay in place. They don't agree with the president is does that give you any comfort it does. It gives me a lot of comfort. I'm glad to see that a lot of people are you know standing with men with others. And they're they're smart they. I mean I don't WanNa say that the other people who are against it are not smart. I understand where they're coming from but right now at this point in time it's not safe. It is not safe to re open. Pa wholeheartedly at this time. If they want to open up little small businesses I can understand that part solely open the economy back up but do not open up the entire state of PA. That is a disaster yet. I really appreciate speaking with you and I appreciate the work that you're doing. Well thank you. Thank you bye bye bye was yet a timothy in Harrisburg Pennsylvania to see a picture of Ms Timothy at the protest visit our website. Si Dot ca slash aih more Hi Emily and I'm feeling you know us as the host of the podcast. The secret life of Canada. And we've got an exciting bit of news for you. We do. We want to go to school with you. That's right. We are now part of the curriculum in a way. We've teamed up with educators from across the country to create teaching guys that go along with some of our best episodes. We've got teaching guides for indigenous history. Caribbean Canadian Migration Black History Asian history. It's very exciting. It is very exciting and so each guard comes with ad free audio transcripts lesson plans slide shows and a whole bunch of other stuff. Yeah just had to. Cbc DOT CA Slash Teaching Guides for more info. And it's free. It's free the art of Barney Smith resonates especially powerfully right now because every piece in his enormous body of work contained a hole in its center. That negative space was a Leitmotif throughout his oeuvre suggesting avoid at the core of human understanding or in twenty twenty a different kind of lacuna. The human interaction missing from our daily experience. Clearly Mr Smith's work was subject to interpretation but I think all critics would agree. He decorated toilet seats in two thousand seventeen. Mr Smith who was ninety six years old at the time decided to sell the contents of his toilet seat art museum all thirteen hundred plus toilet seats that he had painstakingly decorated for more than fifty years from archives. Here is Barney Smith telling Carol about the decision and about what drew him to the unusual medium in the first place. Hello Barney there. How are you tell you the host of the show? I'm the host of the show. Oh good how good to talk to you about my torty collection but now buying Barney wire why are you selling your collection? Because I'm older. I'm getting ready to leave his whole world. I'm seeing a lot of changes in my night is six years and some of those changes are actually on toilet seat covers. Aren't they you painted? Oh yes in fact. My wife and is anniversary. I've got our last anniversary that we Show everybody donor. Seventy fourth wedding anniversary. Got That on. A tortoise is one that that put that toilet seat is mayor kissing her goodbye on the toilet seat. Oh and they say well. How many toilet seats do you have in your museum? Thousand Three hundred and twenty two. You've got some of these. I've got pictures you've got license plate. Drake all right. Good good idea. Did you pay no no? I'm still here now speaker. Okay Barnea. I'm still here Now you've got license plates you got tributes to all the states and two Canadian provinces to how you got some five of the One Data Canada. The ones that I could get my hands on license plates are put them with the Alberta with the Sketch Awan with the British Columbia. I've got about half of a mandatory Yukon Con Yukon up in Canada. And so you've got those on your toilet seats you've got but you know what there's a really weird one you've got. Looks like a swarm of Hornets and Hornets Nest On this is a one that the Yellow jacket did little grown Hornet. And it's Doug May on top of the head I said Joe Maturity saw put a wash nest on a toilet seat now can anyone. Can anyone actually sit on the toilet seats and do their business do? What can they do there? Can you sit on the toilet seat? Can you actually use one of these toilet seats? All Day is just taking off. You may fall through the toilet if you Sat Down A plaque I call them plaque right but what might add a tortoise seat. But they've got the Hanes Bernie. Why why toilet seats I mean. Why not dinner plates or doors or something? Why are you painting on toilet seats because my master primary tired you are planning my garden tracing retired? I'm a minister retired. But did you get tired and tell them almost gone did you. Did you did Daddy? It won't be though I'll be gone. I gotta get rid of my tortoise seed collection. I've got a thousand three hundred and twenty two tortoise seats and they're all cataloged. I got the book right here in my hand now that has got number one. Is My dog tags number. One number five hundred is dogs. That's the one that I was supposed to quit. But that didn't have been in the doghouse ever cents. You told your wife you're going to quit at five hundred. Yes that's my dog. Got Five hundred I'm hitting the button again. Back on the speakerphone okay. Toning Mona Luge is there. Yeah I can't hold his telephone. Give my ear without hitting a button. Her two little portable phone. Okay I'm GonNa let you go but just tell me what does it cost. What does someone have to come up with a Dubai your collection? I'm on at that via Whoever IS INTERESTED IN PURCHASING IT? Okay well so we'll see if anybody in Canada or one of our listeners. Wants a toilets thousand toilet seats and with your thousand three hundred twenty two exactly eighteen in my museum all right well. We'll tell everybody how they can see your toilet seats Barney and I hope you have many more years ahead you in spite of what. You're saying it's good to talk to you thanks. Well I'm so glad to get to talk with you kidding. Come and see me if you What Party candidate you from? I'm in Toronto. I'M IN TORONTO TORONTO. Yeah we went to Toronto and win on the train and move on right underneath. Oh death and got escalator. Right up in the lobby of Toronto but is the queen cleaning. That's the Montreal. Montreal Anyway Barney. It's great to talk to you and good luck with your museum. All righty thank you so much. Give me a call sometime. Seattle things going all right. We'll do that same. Have good done now. From our archives. That was Carol speaking with Barney Smith artist and owner of the toilet seat art museum in San Antonio Texas. Mr Smith died in July of Twenty nineteen. He was ninety eight but his collection is still thriving. The owner of Texas restaurant called the truck yard but the whole thing in non pandemic times. The toilet seat museum at the truck yard is open daily from an eleven. Am Two PM and available for parties and corporate events Scott Moe is giving the full quarantine measures another week and a half and the schedule and premier says. He's going to begin a five phase plan to return the province to normalcy the premier outlined. His plan this morning but the announcement comes as the northwestern community of Lash grapples with a rapidly moving outbreak. That's now spread to a nearby first nation. Dr Anwar is a former deputy medical health officer in Saskatchewan. We reached her in Saskatoon. Captain One if everything goes as planned to. What kind of things are going to start happening? Scotch on on the fourth of May the initial phase announced by premium. All this morning will involve opening fishing. Angling Iraq says camp and parks and so that is pretty soon and what about also medical services that will be allowed like dentistry and optometry and whatnot correct and so these would be things like More of the allied health care that we think of rather than the acute care services which has been opened as of now now. Golf Course for example won't be open until the fifteenth and then additional retail services won't be opened until may nineteenth and after that they will be assessed but given what we've just learned about what happened in the lush than northern community in Saskatchewan and the cases that this the doubling of cases in that community. What could you tell us about about that? I'm actually quite concerned about premium mold. This morning mentioned that. This plan had been sure without the provincial payments. Suspect this has been planned for a while. When the numbers has remained low in Saskatchewan the numbers in far north of Scotland in as well as adjacent town has increased rapidly only in the past few days since last Friday and that if we consider the population density up north actually is quite a significant rise as of yesterday they have the second highest number of active cases after Saskatoon and that has direct impact on tourism or fishing or camping activity in northern The lakes In the boreal forest In Scotch when is what draw the tourist on even American tourists to to come in the summer most also be of great concern to indigenous communities and in Scotch on says it spread to the clearwater river donation correct and yesterday? There was also a report that I believe. Another first nation to Of A hundred kilometers north of bill. has had four new cases report and so that represent the travel. Sorta pathway from North Outta for going North Mental Losch which in the winter has ice will connecting to northern Alberta and A lot of these services higher local staff which is great but that does create a bit of challenge if the local indigenous communities are declaring state of emergency curfew and trying to contain a vars while the tourism industry is trying to open up and higher worker dot is potentially Quite risky and trump's. Oh the able to contain cove. Nineteen in ordinances. Gotcha if as you say that. The is premised on the efforts of the assumption that they can trace whatever cases do increase. Whatever does happen. They're all traceable. What what what does it tell you that there has been this outbreak what what is a traceable outbreak? The province has not released officially much details And so at this time we only know. The total number of cases that's been reported about ten percent of those cases in the entire province are not traceable But a huge number of them right now around twenty are under active investigation. So I'm assuming quite a large number of that. Active investigations are before turning to the new cases. Just been reported in the far north So what that tells us that will only one outbreak away really As what we observed in all BERTA IN BC. We do have we what we understand. Is that the. The lauch outbreak could have been tied to workers who are returning from the oil sands sites across the border in Alberta since the work has dried up for those people they are going home crossing borders. And so it's a scotch doesn't have much control over. Its borders. Does it correct. And it's not clear from the plan that's released So far whether there would be any measures for interprovincial orders and even if so Because of the close linkage in both personal and professional travel back and forth between northern Alberta and lauch or the rest of the northern Scotland towns as long as we are seeing Elevated risk next to the border the same risk will apply to Communities what were you the most about Scotch when beginning to open up. I think we have in fortunate because a the lower population density and because The government did take decisive actions early on in the epidemic curve compared to other jurisdictions however we do not have the benefit of twenty first century technology like South Korea Taiwan do whereby. You know if someone is fun to have been to quite a number of places Those Asian Nations happy able to send out allergic people to say you know what you might have been exposed. We Joe no but please keep an eye on it and please go for testing. And so my worry is that if we rely on our current passive testing system we may not picked up the start of a new outbreak soon enough to contain it. Dr Hong we will be watching. Canada will be watching to see what happens in Saskatchewan and appreciate speaking with you thank you. You're welcome thanks. Carol Take Care Take Care and Hong a former deputy medical health officer in Saskatchewan. You Miss the little things the ease with which you could get together with friends. The casual Chitchat as he went about. Daily life into that vacuum have rushed what you may now rightly regard as your real friends. The ones you can count on to entertain you at the end of a hard day. The ones you never have to perform for but who always perform for you. I mean your TV friends sure some may denigrate those friendships not actually real or stinging totally one sided but at least two of those friends are proving otherwise Paul Sun Yung Lee and Andrew. Fung both star in the CBC Sitcom Kim's convenience and together. They've opened their hearts and their Zuma counts to their truest fan friends breaking the fourth wall to cement a beautiful kind of friendship. They explained why they wanted to do. Weekly Zoom chats with fans today on. Cbc Radio Metro morning here. They are starting with Andrew Fund. I think it's a combination of things but I think you know we were all in this for a while together and I felt like we didn't need another celebrity. Tell us going to be all right or someone asking you to donate money. You didn't have and what I love about Our fans the neighbors love talking to us and we love you know Comic Book Convention that we love talking pamphlets that. Let's do a cool thing where you know. We've come out to their living room with our show minute our virtual every week Paul. You're super active on social media but the opportunity for people interact with you kind of verbally and see. You must be a blast people. What was the most recent one like? Well we just had one on Tuesday and the response to the Google sign up for it has been tremendous. I think I don't know what the numbers are but I mean a day into it. We had over two two hundred and fifty sign ups today. So that's been the response and it's lovely to see people from all over the world really really relate to the show and they WANNA chat us which is mind blowing. But it's it's very humbling. It's it's very very grateful for the support that we get from our fans and it went over very very well because it really is even though there's twenty five plus people in the zoom chat. They get a chance to answer questions. And it's a really intimate sort of virtual get together so that it's not open to the public per se. It is that's like group every week and it's something a little special That we tried to give to them. It's a really exciting. It's a good way also for us to see Paul's face I I love the guy. He's literally one of my best friends and so just to hang out with your friends and really open it up to others is great. What's it like for you Andrew? At home I see on social media trying to keep up with teaching your kids and trying to keep everybody engaged. How you faring? You know it's been it's been up and down you know everyone's updates and down days but what I love is it's actually been a really cool opportunity to press pause on life and just be a dad and and discover a lot of things playing with my boys and so that's what I take away from it. It's going to be one of those times. We commemorate you know in a photo album years from now the family of just this is the thing that happened. This was the blackout for two months. It's been a lot of cartoons a lot of snacks. A lot of playing in the yard and honestly Kinda love it. What about you Paul? Do you weep softly because you don't get to see Andrew all the time. Thank Heavens for modern technology being able to virtually meet large groups of people at the same time so I I do get a chance to even though he lives only five minutes away. I miss him very very much. Kim's convenience actors and Real Life Friends Andrew Fung and Paul Sun Yung Lee talking with the. Cbc's David Common this morning and you to talk with them via zoom if you're willing to get in line behind roughly five hundred other typically when Virginia Senator Mark Warner is on this show. It's to talk politics today. That's not the case earlier this week. Senator Warner posted a video to social media. So I thought that I would create one of my favorite all time recipes. Now I'M GONNA be moving fairly quickly so unless you're a professional chef you may wanNA occasionally pause the video so you can keep up now where I grew up on a the lights and I learned it very very young. It is truly my real specialty. So today we're going to create a tune-up what ensues in that tuna melt video could be described as horrifying. We reached Senator Warner in Alexandria. Virginia Senator Warner as you know we have reached out to you in the past talk about weighty matters of State for. I never thought that I would be calling to challenge you on your culinary habits. Well it's been an interesting last couple of days. I will acknowledge that how many people have let you know that your tuna melt tutorial was just a a real meltdown. It was a real meltdown. I would generated. It was a number of politicians famous people here. I think in an effort to kind of show their humanity through the krona virus have been making videos than them singing a song or playing the piano or baking their grandmother's favourite brownie recipe. And I thought well I can't do any of that but I did make something when I was twelve. And my twenty five year old daughter who is cooped up here with. Us decided that we would film it than Maybe I did stretch a little bit. I knew there were. I would get some reaction With the excess Mayo. The white bread the process cheese the tuna straight from the can without draining the can and the microwave with even all those things combined. I didn't think I would get the kind of literal meltdown that occurred. You're you're getting you're getting schooled in all directions. Aren't you yeah? I think there were some folks that may might not have seen the humor in that but Maybe that's just because they've been inside tools. Okay you mentioned. You mentioned a number of the details in the video. That made people suspicious that you had no idea what you were doing. Well I did one people that unless you are a professional chef you might need to pause occasionally because I was moving fairly quickly the I think the genius of the Tuna Melt that I prepared was it was less than two and a half minutes and that even included the twenty second hand wash. I performed while the sandwiches end. The Microwave Poli took another twenty seconds to actually empty most of a bottle of mayonnaise onto the bread. Well I carol. I do have to acknowledge I've told you in the past. My Mother's family is all from Ontario and I may have gotten my man as getting habits. Oh no no no. You're not going to blame us for that. My Gosh that was that was excessive. Maybe that's a Warner family recipes. That has been passed onto the generations. You're saying well it was actually. I was hoping to use what I grew up with with miracle but even my daughter thought that was a little too gross But I can assure you that. Whatever Warner manage. The friction has not been passed onto my three kids. They are completely aghast. I'm very good manager. I do use it as well on Baloney and cheese and other other things as well would have been the Canadian choice. Now what you did you did. Get a real desk down from Senator Camel Harris. Who really showed you how it's done. What did you make of how she shows you how to do it? I mean what do you expect? She lives in San Francisco. And you know Kinda already community and having deluxe kitchen with with all of the vegetables she put in The common was a good friend and There was You know it. It is one approach. I still think mine's a little hardier and a little A little more authentic bit alarmed when she added Lemon and and chopped vegetables right with Parsley and lemon celery celery but there was also partially at the end. She she went to Just think that may show her little much Tennessee towards vegetarian. How do you this is a skillet? She says at some point you knew that right there was. I had seen that matter of fact there have been times when I've used a toaster ovens but you know it doesn't happen nearly as quickly as magically With thirty seconds in the microwave. And you get that that white bread extra Moist feeling when it comes out of the my microwave. You didn't drain the tune that you put have a bottle of mayonnaise on it and you put it in. The microwave was must have been fairly soggy. Well that would be the. That's where the process cheese and I'm to slice man. You know helped absorbed some of that Extra excess liquid now. Do you have any other recipes that you plan to share with people during the pandemic? I told Komo at that. You know my next performance might be with. Baloney Velveeta along with potato bread. That's slightly yellow. As opposed to white. That sounds like something out of the craft found the kitchen recipes from probably the Canadian cookbook. I am showing a little bit of my ethnic heritage here now if people have also suggested that you might have been trying to do this as fundraising thing but I imagine that had failed of that was really the case unless I was forcing people to eat The sandwiches if they didn't give I would I? I didn't I'm not sure I thought that far ahead. What is your kids? Think of your your efforts. They were aghast Luckily I've got two of them here with me and one down at my farm and They said they've heard from friends. They hadn't heard they're all in their mid twenties to thirty two. They had heard from friends that they hadn't heard from since grammar school. So you know if a tuna melt can bring friends and family together. You know one small step forward. I hope that they're bringing friends and family together cooking for you. Well yes there was one of the things that that really drove home to me. Was Tom Kalicki. I'd actually had the chance to be a show a judge on top chef at some point. He sent me a text thing that I to pack my knives and Jose Undress. Who is the relatively famous chef? Who's doing a lot of the international feeding going on right now Offered me a free cooking lessons so you know. Some good may come out with something to fall back on this politics. Stuff doesn't work out for you. Absolutely Senator Warner thank you Carol. Thank you stay safe and eat hearty and not not not having your Tuna Malik and tell you that much. Be well by Virginia Senator and home-cooked Mark Warner in Alexandria. Virginia and you can find more on that story on our website. Cbc DOT CA Slash Ai. H You've been listening to the as it happens. Podcast our show can be heard Monday to Friday on. Cbc Radio One and on Sirius Xm following the world at six. You can also listen to the whole show on the CBC listen APP. Download it for free from the APP store or from Google play. Thanks for listening. I'm Carol off. And I'm Chris. How for more? Cbc PODCASTS GO TO CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.
Ep. 196: Another paramilitary push against Wet'suwet'en camps in BC
"I'm required from Winnipeg this media and digital episode one hundred six on this week roundtable with Silverton redux. It's an ever changing story yet. All too reminiscent of other indigenous struggles. And that's just in British Columbia with solidarity rallies and blockades going up and support in different parts of Canada and beyond. We'll try our best to look at how police actions this time around. Compared to last year's RCMP raid of the anti pipeline pro-sovereignty encampments in ancestral whatsoever and territory. More on that in a moment but first a quick note. Thanks to our newest patrons on patriotic patrons like Lena Lindsey and Mathon we each now pledging one dollar every month to our work. Thanks you three. Every dollar truly makes a DIFFERENCE LEARN. How yours too go to media? Digit DOT COM. You Click though pink supportive but all right joining me now are in Vancouver Candice Call Us an associate professor in the School of journalism and ub see hello cans Iraq Edmonton Kim. Talbert associate professor in the Faculty of Native Studies at the University of Alberta. Hake him and low all right so I would like to begin by recommending people. Listen to our last discussion about the last time the RCMP rated whatsoever and checkpoint that is January of Twenty nineteen. And as you may recall in that episode. Candice really helped us You'll get grounding and some of the complexities of political representation and voice in the region. Something complicated by colonialism. What's new and the fact that most of BC remains not covered by any treaty. Or as some put it illegitimately occupied by force of numbers and apparently a paramilitary force so that has changed Stanley? Near as I can tell and as far as the rate goes this time around some of it feels like Deja Vu all over again however there are some new wrinkles to this current police action and candice. I'm curious what stands out for you among it all but I suppose we should start with an update even though it's kind of risky because it seems events are ever-evolving on the ground and I have to say I'm less and less on facebook these days but I can see. Twitter is just a light with updates on the situation on the ground and with demonstrations of support in various parts of the country which may or may not be happening in larger number than compared to last year now as of this recording though which has happened in the morning of Sunday February ninth. Twenty twenty candice. Where do things stand? Well several people have been arrested we are looking at it like a continuing movement of the RCMP. Down what is a forest service road along the Morris River And so if you follow the twitter feeds you're watching as Journalists are updating You know which kilometer checkpoints the RCMP have moved forward. But I mean the other really interesting story here is that journalists have been continually Threatened prevented from doing their job and most of the journalists who are doing this work are independent media journalists. It's pretty powerful. Actually that you know you have to follow the tie the Narwhal or ricochet to really have a paid attention to what's going on there. Cbc only sent their reporter after the first Set of arrests and raids that the RCMP did so CBS's in catch-up you don't see anything from the global mail or You know the Vancouver Sun or any of the Mainstream media that you might expect to be there see TV global excetera that you know it's almost like You have to be on twitter to really understand what's happening in to pay attention to the movements that have been happening. The the national observer has also had a reporter there at various points. I'd like to add an AP. I think they've done a lot of background stuff. That's for sure about and you can see it on their homepage like it's a it's a top story on APN. Even though it they haven't had sort of a reporter I think at any of the checkpoints. That's my that's my impression from their coverage but it's hard to tell because they have done such extensive background which has been great and they have been you know covering it like getting people to comment on it though you said Media have been threatened by the what do you mean by that specifically with the rest basically or at threatened or prevented so they've created exclusion zones that journalists have not been able to get through the journalists for ricochet has reported be feeling threatened grant and prevented for sure from doing His his work. And that's a get sent journalist. I believe Jerome Turner so which is another get. San And with certain are two separate nations. They brought the case forward together Which is a sort of a landmark case in Aboriginal title so aboriginal is the you know the other term for indigenous that is used very widely especially NBC. When you talk about the illegal precedents you talk about aboriginal title As opposed to indigenous first nations and so the Dell case really you know was settled in nineteen ninety seven but it wasn't really settled. What happened was the Supreme Court said yes. Aboriginal title does exist But you know in order to sort of prove it you have to come back with another case And so at that point gets in and what? Sautin were sort of Had exhausted a lot of their people in their resources and they chose not to bring You know the case at the Supreme Court said they needed to do next and so this is sort of A. It's really interesting that it's happening in on. What so attend territory that this kind of forces being applied given that they have done probably the most to support indigenous claims to land and resources. Nbc where two thirds of the province remains without treaty which is interesting too because that has been of benefit to all indigenous peoples political bodies Be they based on hereditary systems or the so-called elected Indian. Act Band Councils. And so this question of who speaks for the whatsoever depending on who you talk to You get different answers but in any case I wanna I wanNA bring in Kim What stood out for you watching this all unfold. What Candy said I didn't realize that the May I mean the mainstream news wasn't covering this because I've got so much coming across my twitter feed and then of course then I have access right because I've so many indigenous people on my twitter feed and then I have access to all this alternative media so I don't even you're right. It is all it's it's not the mainstream media that's doing this. I think that's so interesting. And just again shows the importance of social media in in getting the word out It's it's been interesting to me and then The what I thought was really good. I was when I was reading last night and preparing for this conversation. I was posting a lot of quotes from the things. I was reading In this Narwhal article that By Carol limits. And I don't know this venue at all. What's the background on it? So I'm on the board of the Narwhal in transparency. Okay so So the Naral is a new Relatively new it came out of DC smog blog Canada and then they became the Nora Wall. And they do environmental reporting any. Do some very good Reporting on especially indigenous issues. They were they kind of got known for their reporting on sightsee account but also they just hired. Stephanie. Would WHO's the media. Indonesia allom somebody who who worked on media indigenous so there's a few connections to them so I really like the way. This article very clearly by Carol Lynn. It shows the the connections between the national inquiry for missing and murdered indigenous women and resource extraction right and so I thought this article came out on February Eighth. Really good job of that. So that's kind of the I. I'm glad to see them for grounding The connections between risks to women In two spirit people especially and then risks to the land so yeah. That's that's really what I'm paying close attention to and then just also I did watch some of the videos with. I think there were people at the. How do you say the onus on a stop Buna Stoughton Camp Stein a stockton? Yeah The one woman who's an elder was really making a pretty Interesting case about being on ceded territory. So I'm still learning a lot of this because I don't know about the the the treaty history negotiations or lack thereof in BC. Right I mean and just beginning to get a sense but it seems like they're making a really powerful case about the need to have these conversations. I mean there isn't doesn't seem like they have legitimate legal authority to be doing what they're doing so I'm like I'm like a one. Oh one student on this stuff so I don't really know that I can answer your question. Rick what my question was what stood out for you at that. A lot of the same stuff is stood out for me and I mean canvas has been great in terms of sharing articles. We must have like thirty or Kohls that we sent back and forth and I mean on one level. That's amazing right. I mean it's daunting but on the other hand it's clear that there is some independent journalism going on. I do wonder a lot of the video to this. Is another interesting dimension just like last year a lot of the video coming out of that situation is coming from people quote unquote embedded there and I mean there are legitimate questions about the independence of the people who are more closely embedded but on the other hand. A lot of the footage seems to be raw. It's not necessarily edited although I can't say that one hundred percent for sure but you know you can't I mean mainstream media so indoctrinated into the legitimacy of the nation state it's not like they're quote unquote independent either. Oh absolutely I mean that actually to another thought I had. Which is you? Have this exclusion zone. That I don't know the current status of it. I mean initially are was basically saying okay so we talked about this forest service road which sixty six kilometers into is. The is the Western most camp the furthest camp deep into the forest road Quite a ways up is the RCMP camp and basically they were saying anything beyond the RCMP. Camp they're going to exclude most people Except for certain hereditary chiefs and some band council members but They got a lot of criticism for that because that effectively excluded the media as well. And maybe you know rhetorically wondered myself. Is this how it works in war zones? I mean you even have a war zone you get to have reporters well and also we heard that there were reports of the RCMP telling reporters. They couldn't take pictures of their weapons right. I mean they're hawks. Come on yeah so I mean candace what what what. What are the protocols around covering wars? And how does that if you overlay that with? What's going on here? I mean I. I've not joke so much in other contexts you know including at Princeton that time where we had that conference about indigenous peoples climate change in journalism. Are we not were correspondence? And if so I mean how the ethics of all that I don't know if there is there's much of a articulated mature set of protocols and ethics around covering war but you would think they'd be relevant here. Yeah that was such a powerful talk you gave. And I've quoted you many times on talking about digital journalists. Are you know in some ways? War Correspondence because our land resources are constantly. Being contested in our jurisdiction is being contested and our free prior informed consent. Right all of the things that The UN Declaration on the rights of business people under up talks about You know I was looking Just while you guys were talking so ricochet actually said that. They had a journalist who was detained for eight hours while he was supposed to be covering be raid And so you know that kind of thing you know would If it were were a war that there would be international outcry and I think the Canadian Association of Journalists has actually done a really good job of being on top of this and and lobbying an end the RCMP apparently backed down right The day after they did that to ricochets reporter Jerome Turner. Then they came back and said well. Actually you know we we. We are going to you know. Support press freedom in this case but You know if this were an international situation I think that's a really interesting Framework to think about what's going on there because there should be access by journalists for many of the same reasons that there would be access in any war zone that there should be a you know a bearing of witness really right like the. The prime function of journalism in these sorts of situations is to bear witness. Such that you know. Violations of human rights can be documented And further action can be taken such that the state Is You know highs someone watching as a surrogate for the public right. So all of the functions that journalism performs in in a war situation is it is exactly what you know. Journalists on the ground and wet so it and are performing so there is like a real a pretty serious correlation there in terms of The potential for violence in terms of You know the the actions and in the heavy handed actions of the state and so I think this is. This is probably you know one of the most troubling things about this This particular Event in this in this longtime line rate in Stockton was established in two thousand nine. This is a this is not a new a new thing. That's happening here. They were one of the first to Really set down a very physical Inc encampment Counter to the march of pipelines across British Columbia from from Alberta And in terms of the necessary presence of media but also the other things that are going on. I mean the reason why the RCMP can move in is because coastal gas link. The company that wants to put this pipeline through has got an injunction and so the junction means that the police can enforce it. In fact they're compelled to enforce it. I was talking with an indigenous lawyer about this last night. And so really. The imperative here that underlies RCMP action is that the You know land offenders or you know what are being called protesters in some media. They are a stopping coastal gasoline from doing their business. So this is a real. This is the capitalist imperative right that underlines corporate injunctions right and and we softened yellow head institute They did a report and found that most injunctions by like a huge percentage favor corporate entities and so in this case right the injunction favors coastal gasoline Right to do business and the RCN PR compelled to enforce it at the same time right. Bc has just passed legislation regarding and drip at the same time. We have this major case from the Supreme Court dating back to nineteen ninety seven. That was you know. Began in nineteen eighty four. That affirms oral history that affirms hereditary chiefs and the governance structure of the wet. So attend. There's all of these other things going on and yet You know really. This boils down to coastal gasoline's right to do business. Yeah Yeah I mean. I joked at the time About whether obesity making its laws in line with under was retroactive and But I mean that was passed after the first RCMP rate. So I I don't anyway. It's it's almost ridiculous to even pass these laws. Kim You know for me this. What's interesting about this situation For lack of a better word is it really does crystallize because candace was talking about you. Know if this happened in the international context How would we look upon it? And and and in a way though I mean that is the question isn't it? That is the word because there are people who are super strong advocates for indigenous self-determination. Say this is precisely international. This is not a domestic dispute and by bringing in the RCMP. You are in a sense domesticating. The issue when in fact aren't supposed to be two sovereign parties and sovereignty or self determination is the language used up under. I mean there's the contradictions make your head explode. Yeah well I mean it's just a reminder that reconciliation is just assimilation. I mean get on board and we'll be nicer to you and if you're not on board we're bringing out the big guns you know really has I hate to say this but thinks just don't change you know really they just don't change. I mean where they want land. They want resources. They want access. They WANNA put a railroad through they. WanNa put a pipeline through Yeah it's very much I I don't think there's a real real Acceptance or understanding of the reality of of this being Inter nation Conversation or problem right so I think it's all lip service cynical this morning more than usual. It's feel so warranted though. I mean it's it's really hard to get up every morning the last three days an end wonder what's happened. What happened overnight. You know the first raid started at three am It's painful to watch these These tweets come over and watch journalists under assault which indigenous people under assault which land under assault. It's it's en. It's it's troubling given the context rate of Oh yay indigenous people. We want reconciliation and look Andrea. Look what we did you know. And you can't have it both ways and I think the other thing Charlie Smith from the Georgia straight again independent media here in BC. He talked about how you know. We're making this huge transition towards different kinds of energy sources in yet Canada. Nbc continue to invest in these? You know like dying. Energy sources is fossil fuel industry At at the expense of climate change of reconciliation. Whatever that is and I think increasingly it becomes very apparent that it is about assimilation. Or or you know. Driving a bulldozer through anything like consent and consultation are lining the pockets of their friends. Who are going to donate to their next election. I mean yeah well this is another head scratcher too because as that Opinion piece by Charlie Smitten in the street in makes you wonder. Is this all for naught as the price of solar and wind go down and the quantity of of natural gas on international markets? Goes UP in other words? We have a glut of it. You know some would connect the two although I suppose. Under under girding the the the cloud of gas is just the lack of demand for it because the economy seems fairly stagnant. Relatively speaking so. But if that's the case there's no need for this gas or no urgent need than what is it. All about. To assert dominance. I mean. I'm almost answering my own question but It doesn't seem to be about the material facts on the ground so to speak. Let's certainly devoid of any kind of vision of the future. I mean I think it's about satisfying Business pressures now in corporate lobbying now As opposed to thinking about what the next twenty five to fifty years look like in both in terms of economics and climate change may doesn't make sense. Actually the whole thing is it makes sense. Is this the desperate last stand of oil and gas? I don't know I mean it seems. It seems strange calling. Ah desperate big but at the same time. I mean what was that Graham? She in term the interregnum. You know what I was thinking about last night as I was drifting off to sleep. Funny enough this is the academic brain right Andrew Andrew Nikki fork road really great book about the Tar Sands Oil Sands Right. I think the book is called Tar Sands and He talked about how Canada had become petrol. State like Venezuela for example. That's who he uses as a comparison. And what you see in petrol states is that they become increasingly authoritarian may become increasingly committed to This infrastructure that powers the state really and so. I mean you could make that analysis really clearly in terms of Canada's commitment to both. Gm switch in the transplant in pipeline. Also is is a news has happened this week in terms of of that and indigenous rights as well At the same time as you know this major crackdown by the RCMP. To enforce a what a corporate interest in terms of building a pipeline and the Narwhal actually did also a really good story about archaeological. Evidence has been found in this area. I mean there are so many reasons to shut this project down or to put it into the circular file. Well a lot of things get sorted out And yet we were watching as Indigenous people are being arrested for for being on their land. Yup Oh man. How nineteen century really really. Yeah so I had some basic basic questions. Just not knowing that territory very well. I have questions about technology like I was thinking that because all the twitter feeds are coming out in their videos are coming out and yet this is like sixty kilometers in on a dirt. Road right how were they? How did they power their stuff? I mean I know that's really basic. Imus unsung really interested in how they have the lovely facilities out there and I know they. They're doing cultural camps and things like that And other kinds. It's another kind of gathering space but I'm sort of curious about all of that looked so incredibly beautiful but it's also not super accessible to most people it's not accessible very my had a student go in and actually do her thesis on Staten Several years ago and one of the things. I insisted just because I know that That whole highway area because it's on the way to ten. I insisted that she buy a spot satellite connection so that she could tell me where she was every day. Kind of just like as a safety procedure. Because I've been in deep wish and that's really you know what year dependent on your satellite connection. However I think more cell service has penetrated that area just because if you follow Shantelle Bell Rashard. He's also an alarm in an instructor at the School of Journalism at U B C. She's reporting for CBC and she was also one of the only reporters in there during the last raid a year ago And she is saying like she has to get out to sell service to upload things so there are reporters filing from UNICEF DOT COM which is at the very end of the road. And the and you know when you mentioned Reconciliation when the police got interest in Astatine like the healing center. That's been set up since two thousand nine said the end of this Forest Service Road The the women who were there free to Houston and I think her sister. Is there a number of others? They did ceremony where they they. First of all burn the injunction but they also said reconciliation. His Dad I mean. There's quite a an amazing photo of that So I'm not sure what. The situation is in terms of satellite versus sell and how far cell service has gone in but these this is a really quite remote road that's not paved that comes off of highway sixteen which is The highway of tears right. That's the the road you have to go on to to get up to two terrorists or Prince Rupert now. Another dimension that I haven't heard much about in fact it only came to my attention by way of Alicia Eliot on on twitter and this is an article in the normal news bulletin extending from an interview with Nanaimo Ladysmith M. P. Paul Manley who's a green and P and He was quoted in a Green Party. Me Releases saying this is a political failure. On the part of the provincial and federal governments Sautin hereditary chiefs provided alternative routes to coastal gas link. That would have been acceptable to them. As a pipeline corridor coastal gasoline decided that it did not want to take those acceptable options and instead insisted on route drives a pipeline through ecologically pristine and culturally important areas. This is the first I've heard of it in all of this. I I haven't seen the alternate routes. There's no link to a map that lays them out. This is very interesting because it comes around the same time as a federal court of appeal decision dismissing opponents of the Trans Mountain pipeline. And the REPORTAYSIA on that also coincided with the ever increasing bill for Trans Mountain and the reporting that was kind of sketchy and I mean that in every sense of the word because they were talking about the cost has gone up because the Indians say should go in a different direction and So I mean it's funny. I keep making the price go up and it's like I don't think that's why the pre that's the bulk of the recessed why the price has gone up for but in any case we're always obstacles are way and I don't know I just wanted to note that at no time up until now but I don't see any of the mainstream report is the fact that in indigenous peoples were saying. Look we're not antidevelopment per se we just wanted to take a different route Dot to be seems pretty pertinent. Had either of you heard of it up until this point? No no I hadn't either but I think There was also again. I think Arwa that talked about this That there were alternate routes proposed But I think it might also be drawn from that same that same set of quotes from the Green Green Empty. But this is always the challenge. Right is is whether or not indigenous people are perceived as anti development or not. Well how can both sides? `ISMs isn't an effect here right. I mean you would think that's anyway I mean for me. There's echoes of standing rock here. Rights is similarly. They said go around right and I think I. In in many cases indigenous people recognize that they have to negotiate for the best that they can do in the face of constant onslaught of development pressure. I mean I think about One of the early minds that went in and tell time country one of the the big successes that our leaders will point to is that we got the road to the mind built so that it didn't disrupt migration patterns and spraying of our of All of the Caribbean and other animals that moved through this valley. And so you know. I think that you know you can look at that kind of story. I feel like as repeated in in so many instances and so it didn't surprise me when that came out but it certainly hasn't been a feature of any kind of reporting right instead. What a lot of reporting has been about is the so-called tension between the hereditary chiefs in the elected band chiefs who you know The Premiere of B. C. Of has said he has you know approval from what? Sorta people because the chiefs cellmate Agreements with coastal gasoline. And also you know the rule of lies on his side. But then you know. There's there's so many questions than about whose rule of law. And how does it apply? And which laws are you excluding when you talk about that and you know? The delegate case has recognized the the laws set down by the hereditary chiefs and by the pot latch system. This is why I'm still like I'm scratching my head to the point of bleeding about why they would pass a law saying BC laws will be in conformity with or at least in line which seems to offer a lot of wiggle room. I mean article three indigenous peoples. Have the right to self determination by virtue of that right. They freely determine their political status article for indigenous peoples and exercising their right to self-determination. Have the right to autonomy or self-government in matters relating to their internal local affairs. Like we're with her like a subclass saying except article three except article for except most like Kim. Have you been really struck? By how a lot of the media have kind of superficially pitted the elected band council seemingly collective view versus those of of again. You'RE LUMPING FOLKS. Altogether the hereditary side. No I mean again because most of what I've been following as either in a native twitter or the alternative media so I've been trying to figure that out right like I just figured out a few days ago that 'cause we don't I don't come from we don't have hereditary chiefs versus ban council people in the same way that you do up here in this kind of more so I've been trying to figure that piece out a little bit and But also knowing that yeah when you have elected tribal or first nation leadership. They're they're often very beholden to maintaining that federal Natio- that nation-to-nation relationship right. Because that's because as you just said there you're trying to lessen the damage right of constant development and constant oversight and having to get resources out of the the subtler state so I get that you know I know what elected indigenous officials do but I so. Yeah I've been trying to figure that out along with the you know where the hereditary chiefs stand around this and I don't. I haven't gotten a sense that it's Always I'm not getting this nuanced argument that it's tradition versus these like sellout elected band leaders. But that's probably because I'm looking at more nuanced media like is that what you're saying is being portrayed in more mainstream media yet. I mean the the media only allots a certain amount of time so they go through all these sort of shortcuts. Yeah I duNno. I turn my heard in another context. I think seems to fit really well here in some ways. These band governments feel their their hostage. Governments I mean yeah held hostage by the fact of poverty by decades of economic marginalization. But they're also hostage to the fact that it's okay. Here's your choice. Do you want to be completely shut out of any kind of say any kind of slice of the pie yet or not and to me. It's like wow to call. Those choices is to not understand what the word choice means There's a great quote and I can't remember which article I read it in. But it was from a hereditary chiefs talking about how the elected bound councils are really about managing the reserve area and that the hereditary chiefs are responsible for their twenty two thousand square kilometers right. Like right well okay. I have a question One thing I said in the original take on this was that the band councils were somewhat proximate to the root of the pipeline. But I have a feeling I was completely out to lunch on. I mean do you know candace how close at pipeline come to any of those posted reserves that have all quote unquote signed on to benefits? That I I'm not exactly sure of either. That's a good question because I haven't looked at the pipeline routes like I think it I mean I know that it goes through. Obviously the aware they In astatine healing center is and but then I'm not sure which direction it's going because If you look at maps reserves are all accessible by road And so they're they're not on this forest service road that is you know the accessible root for building the pipeline. Actually can one can infer from that. Yeah Yeah So that's a that's an interesting research question especially in light of a quote like that that that really the hereditary chiefs are about taking care right caring for the land that belongs to their clans and and the houses that make up those clans from you know anthropologists who came into this area. You know along with the Hudson's Bay Company and and the sort of you know state slashed corporate interests. They talked about the governance systems in terms of rituals right in terms of You know Local practices all those sort of anthropological terms. But what really has emerged in? Light of the kinds of court cases that have been brought Both y you know what Soden and gets on around with. But also there's been other cases since the highest cases silk. Ot in case we really see that each nation has a governance system right that previously was categorized as rituals and You know this sort of pagan stuff right. That's really the pot. Latch band contains a lot of that kind of old Christian missionary language and it was demonized for those reasons but the pilot system you know really still remained very strong despite the onslaught of clothing listen despite the onslaught of residential schools. In all of the things that have come with it in terms of it what you were talking about. The economic challenges of of moving onto reserves and these areas are very economically depressed. Right design yeah exactly so Kim. You've decided to stick with the indigenous. Cnn that is to say native twitter. And I mean all Donen salt native twitter. It's far more critical. Can I just meant Canada's native network does can sway barriers? Have you have you could following a Hashtag? Shut candidate down. Oh that's a good one. Yeah it's there's a few hashtags trending but they're really seems to be. I've heard one estimate at least a hundred different rallies demonstrations There's been a number of blockades including the rail between carrying passengers between Toronto Montreal and Ottawa. That's been shut for quite a long time. I don't know it are either of you struck by what seems to be. I mean this is very much of the level of impression but it's to be. There's a lot more reaction this time around in terms of solidarity actions with regard to the raid. Yeah I just didn't notice that that was the Hashtag by what's so what's in strong is another one. Yes yes yeah. Yeah what else is struck you about that. Kim. Oh I just I think that's really. I think that's great. Somebody plowed their car through. Some people in Winnipeg didn't they was at her. No Regina Regina. Yeah I mean they were. I didn't see anything more than the tweet by. Yeah I saw the video. Nobody was hurt right. Nobody was hurt. I mean it was it was. It was really stupid on the part of the driver. I mean it wasn't like that horrific video we saw I think in In the states that time right Charlottesville. Yeah but Still it was like. What are you doing candice? What's your impression is. It has it. Has it escalated more this time around. It's interesting we're having this talk right after the two episodes about idle no more and the kind of groundwork that laid in in terms of connecting people and connecting issues together right making broader broader movements. Because we all share concerns and attorney this is so fascinating to see especially the youth really doing physical protests Being active on twitter these kinds of hashtags that have Have grown up. The other one is Hashtag all eyes on whatsoever John wrote to me. This is really like the benefit I actually Of you know at least over one hundred years of of activism resistance in B C. But you look across the country since okay you see every movement since has really begun to build on the other end of how I feel like. There's these these markers like idle no more. Unlike Oko where we can en- look at the kind of mass uprising Across the country. And I and I think what is going to be one of those moments where you see this much much more widespread support than for other issues where people are really taking it seriously and and looking at it as a pretty serious stand to make even whilst the you know the government continues to talk about climate change and Reconciliation Andrea up I I was really actually inspired. By the fact that Greta Thornburgh Actually tweeted indigenous rights equals climate justice. And then she hashtag all the wet so it and hashtags and she taught a tweet by a young person who was encamped at the Victoria legislature. She must've hurt our episode. Kim that's great that's great. So what are you? Why do you think can it's like what's making the difference in terms of the response and the public recognition? This time of this. I don't want to call it in action but you know what I mean. Yeah I mean I think there's been a lot of support moving towards climate issues right okay. Ken Comment at the end of the the last episode talking about idle no more that the energy has moved from idle. No More to climate change. I think that might be really relevant to thinking about this but also Because what so. It have been so organized and they have used Twitter really effectively to get their message out and they have been doing this for quite some time right in astatine since two thousand nine you really see the the kind of The the organization on the ground matters for people to get behind and support like it just seems very clear that this is a this is a A protest encampment defense to to release support and and the fact that it's connected to climate issues because it is a pipeline and as many people have said actually. I don't know that this is come through even in the stories that we've read but I feel like it's come through on twitter that if you and this is true of any kind of resource development if you open up a pipeline corridor more pipelines. Come right you see that. With T- Amax of the Trans Mountain Pipeline Pipelines be get pipelines great bacteria. They spread everywhere. Where have I heard that so? I don't know where to go next because on the one hand WanNa talk about. Somebody's absence and and other people's presence maybe. I'll start with the absence and I think the the fact that Trudeau has said what would be fair in saying. He said next to nothing about this and that that near silence speaks volumes. I don't know maybe it's sort of choosing the lesser of all evils for him as a political exposure. Or what have you? But it seems like he's just chosen to sit back. I and I don't know why I'd be curious to know what what the strategy is here or is he not knowing what to do. That's what Obama did during no dapple right for awhile. Good point to saying ATP really good point. You're doing nothing is the the least worst option for him. I guess pushing it off onto. I think one comment that was made was this is a. This is a provincial issue. Yeah well yeah. He's pushed it off to Premier Horrigan. Who's GonNa wear this and you know what's what's interesting right porn is and EP and Gustafsen Lake happened under and the MVP? Oh Yeah it was Jeld assange was the attorney general at that time. Hey I'm glad you brought up Gustafsen because similar issues right into a group of people asserting control over land that had been taken from them. It belonged to a rancher I believe and then yeah they brought in a heavy militarized force including was tanks or armored personnel vehicles. But we didn't hear about until later. That's another interesting contrast right is we're hearing about this to the extent appeals allowing it in in quote unquote real time in fact when I have taught About this as I just recently was in a class on Friday but when I taught this even when I was at Princeton I was teaching a class about environmental conflicts in indigenous media. I referenced guest of Sin. Leg I in fact had students read a chapter from this book called wartime images peacetime wounds which is all about the Gustafsen Lake standoff because there is a chapter in there which talks about all the shenanigans that went on between media and the RCMP. And you don't really know what happened there until afterwards until someone writes a book or makes a film is same could be said about OCA- The film by Alan Eastbound. So in two hundred and seventy years of resistance was a powerful documentary precisely because it told that story of how media were both excluded where unable to bear witness the only reason she can make that film because she was embedded right with You know she was behind the line so to speak. And and similarly this book makes this book about Gustafson makes it really clear that media Ahrq continually prevented from really Showing what's going on and how difficult it is to to actually report on these situations And again like the end. Ep is a left leaning government And yet it you know is in both cases. It's the government that is is pushing for and or supporting the kind of RCMP action to support corporations this corporate support so so much for labor and the people which is what he has usually been associated with horse longtime ago The other thing I I wanna add here is that There have been questions in parliament. There this has come up in question period. And you're right like Trudeau has been silent on it. And the only reason I know it's come up in question periods because abt N has reported on it but I will note that the minister of Crown Indigenous Relations Carolyn Bennett. She weighed into the conversation with her. Now infamous tweet saying you know what I'm doing about climate change. I'm turning my thermostat down. Oh yeah this is the minute. This the minister of crown indigenous relations. And have we heard a peep from her about this? What's the point of her? I mean I. That's us a larger question but in this role to I mean wasn't it wasn't Ryan McMahon. Who says she's trolling and distance people something? He tweeted and talk but for those who are going gusts and lake that May What the heck is that? That may include you. Kim Let me just read to you. It does include me. Yes thank you. Quick summation from the Canadian Encyclopedia website. The gusts and lake standoff was a month long conflict Around mid August to mid September in Nineteen ninety-five between a small group of first nations sun dancers and the RCMP. The standoff took place in central British Columbia in shuswap territory near one hundred. Mile House sparked by a dispute between a local rancher and a campus Sundance's over access to private land for ceremonial purposes. The armed confrontation I'm going to put that in quotation raised larger questions of indigenous land rights NBC on September Eleventh Nineteen Ninety five he what was later called the largest paramilitary operation in the history of the province. We may have to update this Simply surrounded the remote camp and a firefight quote unquote erupted during which remarkably no-one was seriously injured. The standoff guessing lake is perhaps the least known in a series of localised armed conflicts involving indigenous peoples in the nineteen ninety s that included the OHKA and April wash crises in Quebec and Ontario respectively so What strikes you about that Kim and what's happening what's unfolding now in BC so it's base. It's basically was Sali's it was because I never heard about it and I heard about that other stuff right and I'm thinking ninety five where the heck was I. Well this yeah. This is a quarter century ago. Yeah Yeah but I was. I was living in Boston. I mean this. I don't remember this at all but yeah no I mean it was. It was not on anybody's radar so to speak and yeah I think I think the firefight aspect of it is utterly overstated. I it's it's kind of disappointing. Two two two six eight. They exchanged gunfire. I mean yeah there was. There was the needs to be more conceptualization of that. It was it was hardly a it. Just like with ochre right in that to wasn't an armed conflict. I mean the provincial police force went in started shooting and then one of their own officers got killed and nobody to this day can definitively who who's. Who's gun which bullet killed the officer? But I don't know that's really striking to either. I mean what is up with BC? We can't just printed printed on them. Well does the fact that they don't that they didn't have the same kind of treaty history. I realized that's another one on one question. Yeah that's a big issue. It's funny whenever I hear people say we are treating people in our not. We're not people out here And that has a meaningful consequences when it comes to these conflicts over land resources many of which are really in the last twenty five to thirty years you see these huge heated conflicts whereas you know our ancestors several generations back were writing declarations in nineteen ten right so we've continually persisted towards trying to Get treaties and you know. There was a treaty process in the early nineties. Which you know still all of these major protests have occurred after you know we have Supreme Court decisions in some ways we are you know Supreme Court people right we. We've continually gone back to the courts and the courts have continually affirmed our title and rights to the land and to resources and yet the BBC and Canadian governments force indigenous peoples across the province to negotiate at every single. Turn right we have silk ot which is a major decision. That just came down a few years ago Which said indigenous people have the right to consent? You know women it's their territory and yet the BBC and Canadian governments have still forest first nations NBC to the table to negotiate at every. Turn and you know in the case of what's on their you know preventing them from Protecting their land from corporate interests. In fact they're citing the corporations tacitly or or in a lot. I guess I should say tacitly siding with the corporations are there. Have there been other How ignorant I am of the history there but have there been other. Conversations is everybody interested in pursuing treaties. You know that that's a super interesting question. Here is the word interesting too much anyway. Interesting you that so so there was. This treaty. Process started in the early nineties and not everybody chose to participate in it The first nation summit which is a political organization kind of represents the the nations that wanted to participate in the treaty process and the Union A. B. C. Indian chiefs Have taken the position that they don't have to have their sovereignty affirmed through You know these processes impact. Their sovereignty exists And so that you know just act. Accordingly to that however chiefs who are have been in and out of the treaty process participate in both political organizations and as the treaty process evolves right. It began to cost some first nations so much money that they pulled out of it so my nation pulled out of it many nations have. There's only been two treaties that can attribute their finalization to the treaty process because Scott Treaty which was the first to be settled Verse Modern Day Treaty they They settled it outside of the treaty process so really all of the talk of treaty-making has not amounted to very much and it's a very fraught process so I don't know how many First nations now would say we want a treaty but certainly when I was coming out of college all people says we want a relationship with defined treaty. It seems like without that history though it. It gives people more narrative power to assert their sovereignty. Or is that just does that? The My being overly idealistic. I think it does too. I mean I I feel that way as a as a person from a first nation without a treaty and yet it also makes it really difficult. Because there's no central document to refer to instead we refer to delegate Luke. Ironically given what we've been discussing right we refer to soccer team. We refer to hide case you know. So we can refer to court cases which point to the fact that you know aboriginal title still exists and must be contended with And therefore we must be concern like meaningful consultation and consent really must occur and yet. That's a fight that constantly has to be had with bureaucrats. Can we please conclude with? I think the incredible examples set by a couple of real heroes. And I think we're going to have to put your your worries about Heroism to the side in this case for these two. Gentlemen I am of course talking about two guy. Laurenti chuck and Chis- deeter. Those were Kinda strange names. But I didn't get the joke until you explain to me sweet same here I was like. That's a funny name and as as I mean. Those are both Cree words and the guy means peanuts and just means toll to my mom. So Chuck was this was the name given by a guy who was quoted by a reporter following those two teens who had gone around who had killed somebody and they'd been traced northern Manitoba. So and Potisk is he was. He was at a demonstration in support of of The folks at what so and so I you know I love that. I think we should see more of that out of going on. Because it's such a I don't know in some ways. It seems almost unfair and other ways it just seems absolutely fitting to take advantage of nonindigenous reporters that way and Totally and I I would be remiss if I didn't talk about the tweet from Walking Eagle News Tyler. End Chuck just dealer to get network morning. Show the Bobbin dog of our generation holy cow. Yes I think I think amidst all of this this violence We also need to laugh so and laughing at settlers is particularly satisfying. So where do we think this is? This is going to go or is it just too many things in the in the air. I mean what? What are you gonNA be watching for We'll start with you. Came in then. We'll we'll close with with candace. Well you know what I'm thinking about a lot. These days is the The book I've been reading here in in coming back to again and again have I talked about this on this podcast. The founder of peace and Conflict Studies this Norwegian Guy Johan Dalton Mussa I admit yes so he he actually predicted the fall of the Soviet or the dissolution of the Soviet Union with a couple of months and back in two thousand nine. He wrote a book called the fall of the US empire and then what In which he predicted the decline or the the fall of the US empire by late. Twenty twenty originally. He had said twenty thirty. But then when he saw Bush's response to nine eleven and Obama's Kind of What he was doing policy wise in the first six weeks of his presidency. He moved the date up to twenty twenty. And so I think I'm thinking a lots coming to head this year Not only obviously in the US. But I think around the world as as sad the world loses the US loses. Its magic as an empire right as people realized that there have to be other kinds of alliances made and and we can't. You can't just have this. This one militarized bully kind of setting the global agenda. And so I think that's got a lot to do with the the sort of Demonstrations against and Cognizance of climate crisis. Coming to the fore so I think this stuff is gonNA keep happening in a in a really intensive way and I'm trying to find you know I it's easy for me to say on. I'm not despairing as much as some people because I'm a person of privilege so but so I don't try to have have like a sense of radical hope out of my own privilege. I'm trying figure out what good is. GonNa come out of all of this and I think People taking their eyes away from such a violent global empire and figuring out what we do regionally particularly to find other ways forward in terms of how to live together in terms of how to organize ourselves as human society. So that that's why I'm reading this book right and that's the backdrop against which I'm thinking about What's happening at whatsoever? And I was really moved and inspired in good way and I felt like indigenous the goodness of of a lot of indigenous ways of relating were really affirmed in some of those videos coming out of the healing center In that area in the women that were that were speaking on video and I was really Really really inspired by that. I know that's not exactly quite the right word but I reassured I was reassured that there are people that I think are able to lead US ethically and help us change the narrative according to which this world has been organized during a settler colonial in colonial era before that. So I'm trying to figure out what's going to get realigned. What's going to get reorganized? And who's going to lead us in rethinking how to live together and there are people out there that. I think can help us do that. So that's the stuff that I'm kind of focusing on just before we go. You can't hisself sneaking Mike what I'm really struck by to me the parallels between Canada's attitude and his actions here towards this unsurrendered part of what is currently called Canada. And as as Kim just underscored what may not be called candidate forever The the the actions and attitudes of the Trudeau government towards the peoples indigenous peoples in Bolivia and and the way that they just jumped on this illegit these illegitimate claims to to to leadership there and similarly with Venezuela. I mean this. This is a dirty dealing government. And they're doing it quote unquote domestically and internationally. Canada is not a force for good notwithstanding its attempts at pr to the country candidates. Take US home and a whole bunch of thinking about you how to consider these events you know. One is obviously the land questions in B. C. The questions around consent The questions around what Android apps free prior and informed consent really looks like in BC. And I think every moment whether it's a court case or whether it's a major protest like this one you know brings us incrementally into a new a new reality. So what does it look like going? Forward I to me that you know how indigenous leaders talk about the future and how they partner with each other as well. As what kinds of responses we get both from the bureaucrats and the politicians which can be sometimes quite different right There's a lot of political expediency language and the bureaucrats make it really difficult to Put some of these Court decisions into practice And you know. We have still major pipeline development Pressure here in even though we've got you know this turn to A different energy future. That's GonNa take a while before that trickles down to a place like B. C. Which is so Bent on being hard of fossil fuels and pipeline infrastructure. So so I think to me. That's one set of considerations but the other thing I really look cat is what's happening with. Youth and climate activism and independent media and I. I've begun to think about those things altogether in part of it is. I went to this student. Journalism Conference I was a speaker there and I got a chance to talk with some of the younger journalists who I didn't know. Obviously I work with lots of journalism students then and know a number of alumni of reporting on this but some of these young journalists restraint but yeah we didn't know about what so it and law and tell this we didn't we never been now really like take it seriously and so I think like there is a discursive shift happening Where people are beginning to connect indigenous rights to climate issues. They're starting to think about indigenous rights in a more robust way and I think you know Mike. My question like is how come this hasn't got to the mainstream national media yet in a in a in a big way. So what's IT GONNA take right? What did it take for idle? No more what it is. Take for okay for people to start reporting on this in a in a bigger way so independent media is really carrying the load of the odds discursive shift. I wonder when it will trickle out to mainstream media because those you know as much as I think mainstream media is is is missing so much they do still have this outsized influence on policy and the political system. And so. I'm curious to see where that goes all right Kim Tober cannons causing. Thank you again the next time we talk about this. I hope that there's it's because of positive resolution and not because of Some loss of life or physical harm which would time definitely concerned about and That would be an unfortunate way for it to get the kind of traction. You're you're talking about so be will you? Thanks Kim thanks. Thank you both for. Thank you for educating me. And that's it for media and digital episode one hundred and ninety six recorded the morning Sunday February ninth twenty twenty. Thanks again to candidates. Call US an associate professor in the School of Journalism. Upc thanks to Kim. Tolbert associate professor in the Faculty of Native Studies at the University of Alberto. I'm Rick Harp. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again soon. nesting by bureaucratic ooh.
S2 E3: A Fifth Man
"This is a CBC podcast. Just a heads up. This episode contains a recreation, which may be disturbing to some listeners. Previously on bomb on board. So this is the morning after and on the front page of the Vancouver Sun in huge print bomb fought probe in BC aircrash, fifty two aboard kilt that she RCMP investigator final witness in a six-day coroner's inquest named the three Edgar Steve colas are fifty four and Peter Bruce Brown twenty nine the investigation will go on until we're satisfied the person who did it can never be known or until that person is positively identified. All right. So how many calls have we made so far one two three four five six seven a woman came into my store one day because she had read about me in the paper and said her husband had this ring. I would love to be able to return this to the family that belongs to. I'm Johanna whack staff. And I mean Hennemann, and this is uncovered bomb on board investigating one of the biggest unsolved mass murders on Canadian soil. The crash of C P flight twenty one chapter three. How far away every now for the? Pretty quick Willie. Such our to gravel and cattle dart here. And just graded and it can be. Pity? We're driving the DeeDee Henderson headed west from one hundred mile house sort of up above one hundred mile house right now moving deeper into the woods. Over lucky. We have. Dry weather today as opposed to store like was stormy. They obviously wouldn't have been able to come. Case. It is a beautiful trail calming very dis. Leading us down an old logging trail a few dozen kilometers west of hundred mile house a little deeper in this forest where Twenty-one went down curious after more than fifty years. What's left of the plane? What is the crash site looked like and how does DeeDee feel about this place where her father was killed? You're at it doesn't take long for sort of the pine, smells, and the can you smell the juniper? I can't remember the last time I seen somebody better Feis. Yes. After poring over so many documents studying the technical and police analysis of what happened being here. Just as to the weight of this crime who would deliberately bomb a plane carrying fifty one other people we are literally doing a grid. Search back and forth off the trail both sides for I think about two square kilometers because we really know what you're looking for. So I'd go I see something there, and it was always a log. But you had to check it out. This time DD knows exactly what she's looking for. And where she's going. Because my dad was a geologist loved working in the field. Love the outdoors that to me, this is a fitting resting place for him. Like some people might visit a gravesite. This is where I come. This is where I feel most connected. While DeeDee was quite willing to take us into the crash site. She also wanted us to make it clear to people that that this isn't just a a hiking destination. July the eight so wouldn't have gone dark till late who's raining hard. Yeah. Just look at those woods there. And which is just thick with trees and imagine having to step so closely. Just in case there's a piece of evidence, you know, blasting cap a body for sure, but even little things, right? So quiet, isn't it? Yeah. We'd be walking for maybe ten minutes when d- signals us. The were coming up to the end the trail. This is the top of what they would have had to cut in to get to the fight. We can barely see pass the pine trees. The brush underfoot is dry and crackling the sky has been gray with smoke from nearby forest. Fires for the past few days. But today, there's a stillness and the sun is hot. There's nothing to keep the mosquitos away. What's the franchise? Looking back. Now, we're basically in. Trailed only one person can fit. He because he burt-out cans. Pop cans food tins, rusted out and collected in a pile kind of trail marker signaling we're on the right path. There's a little easier way in through here. Do you wanna go? Do I want to go first? Ok. It feels strange to walk towards the crash site excited is in the right word to describe it not anxious either. But maybe maybe an easy of being so close to where this tragedy happened. Keep on opening. We we get closer to the crash site. They're sort of bits of metal stern about maybe part of a seat. Cable tubes. We can sweet see the glimmer of it through the trees. There's been so much anticipation leading up to this moment. I realize I'm holding my breath. Wow. This is one big piece of metal that is you hear that term twisted wreckage. Exactly what this is. It's one thing to read about the way the plane hit the ground, but it's sobering. To see just how deep some of this wreckage is stuck in the forest floor. So somebody did this. Right. I mean. Yeah. All of this would look the same. If it had been an accident or an error, and it would still be tragic, but somebody did this. Yeah. How does that change things? Well, I mean, if there's an accident, there's there's nothing you can do about it, you kind of go, that's so horrible. But it's an accident and accidents happen, but this is still the biggest unsolved aviation murder crash on the books, and and not being able to know who did it means. You have no, no place, even focused your anger. One of the burnt trees has. Looks like people's initials and metal nail to the the trunk of the burnt tree in memory of flight CPA twenty one July eighth nineteen sixty five fifty two life lost. None. There's initials L P H W M W, Katie. He has said. In nineteen ninety-five family. Members of the victims gathered here for the first time to Mark the thirtieth anniversary of CB twenty one. Most of them had never been to the site before people left mementos. Joe did you see this move toward plane, and there it is just at the base of the tree a little toy airplane, white blue stripes for propeller engines. Books. Perfect. Right. It's it's beautiful. And it's like it's weathered better than anything else. Here. And someone made metal tags with everyone's initials to Mark the day. There's no DD up there. I still have my tag. You're ready to buy. I've thought about where I would put it. And I think I would like to put up until section. The tail section landed further into the Bush about a kilometer and a half away. There's no real trail. No markers. That's where her father Wallace was found from what I've read in the coroner's report at cetera when the bomb blew up the tail section of the plane, literally broke off and fell and anybody really close probably would have been killed by the blast instantly. But those seated nearby would have been sucked out. I would hope Mercifully for him that it was quick. I would hate to match and someone being conscious falling through the air from however many feet. It was. I really really kind of wanted to believe that maybe he survive an hem nesia one day would walk. The. I I try to I hope for I mean. I guess I wanted my dad to come back. So here's a question. Where's the rest of the plane? Right. Where's the where's the nose of the plane? The cockpit. Yeah. Being here. The scene of the crash mind keeps turning to what must have been going on in the cockpit. Those last few moments. I got my pilot's license when I was just seventeen and I still fly small two seater plane for fun on the weekends. I love the perspective you got from up there. But also love the constant challenges that come up the problem solving. Your brain is always working on which is why I can't stop thinking about those pilots. Piece of wreckage. It doesn't look like much. I a piece of rusting metal with a young pine strutting up against one side. But then I see the remains of gears bits of cables and electron IX sticking out. Yeah. I've I. This is some kind of air intake, right? Yeah. Would does to us. Look like the cockpit. Walking around the cockpit. I'm trying to be as respectful as possible and our producer. Polly senses. That hesitation. Do you still feel like you shouldn't touch anything? Yeah. Have you noticed? Yeah. I do feel like I. Yeah. I feel very like. I don't know. I definitely feel like it's been of sacred site. It's like the one piece of respect I can give without you know, having a direct connection to the site. I don't know. It's almost like whispering in the church. This is the only spot we know where someone was sitting. And now, there's you know. A tree growing growing up through the center. Someone's foot a small plaque inside the cockpit. It's almost hidden. We have to get down on the ground to read it clearly. Captain John Alfred Seale nineteen twenty three to nineteen sixty five you live in our hearts every day. And for always September seventeenth two thousand and two. John, son. Julie his niece and Betty sister. I mean, it's it's hard everywhere else on this wreckage, you can't pinpoint seat everything is to mangled, but here literally John Steele was sitting right here. We knew this crash site had become a place families were drawn to a tangible connection to the tragedy. And in finding the cockpit. We found a direct link to the the last moments of the plane. After the bomb went off the man seated at the cockpit controls along with two colleagues still had to try and fly the plane. There's a picture that that often looked at over the years that in in the newspaper that shows two boys draped on the fence looking longingly at DC six four engine propeller plane that are that flu. My name is John Steele. I was the oldest brother four, and our father was the captain on Canadian flight twenty one that crashed in July of nineteen sixty five. John was fifteen years old when his father died growing up he often tagged along with his dad to work and the airline gay families of free flying pass every year. John treasure that time of the year with his father also have the opportunity to be invited into the cockpit. Thinking the statute of limitations allows me to share. That sitting there also got to handle the plane, and it was a DC six, and I remember distinctly feeling how heavy the controls were. Of course. The for softer was monitoring totally what I was doing. But for me it was both. Thrilling and scary. I remember a heck of a lot from that. Fortunately, we'll never know if the pilots had any idea what was happening at the back of the plane. Did they see anything suspicious beforehand? Did anyone on board have time to try to stop the person with the bomb? One thing that really struck me about the technical reports is that the pilots tried to save the plane. John is a pilot too. And I knew he must've been thinking about what happened in those last few moments from the cockpit. The witnesses had heard the engines being throttled up and down and noted whether they appreciated the reason for it that the plane was kept level thought that couldn't continue to fly. It was losing altitude. But the actions of crew kept the plane flat versus going into a dive or cartwheel or something like that. When when it hit the ground, it cut out a a pattern in the trees. Exactly -flective dimensions of the plane. There are many many examples where pilots are known from the the cut that Bush recorders to attempt to save the day by continuing to figure out different ways in the tempting to figure out a way to to survive. We've been hunting for the mayday call ever since we started our investigation. There's a reference to a recording in the coroner's report. And we've searched all the places that might have started. But it appears that no longer exists. But we do have the transcript of the radio traffic tween, Vancouver, tower and pilots from that day. And this is how would likely sound. Again. Candidate seventy tax at home. The pilot had enough time to give three mayday calls, but nothing else and how chilling must've been for your traffic control never hearing any more than those three days. CPA Twenty-one traffic at one o'clock miles north westbound altitude unknown targets Twenty-one, no contact. Here's some of the transcript between your traffic, control and planes in the area. And just reading down. You can just imagine what that was like to be sitting there have routine day. Cover center. He'd be a twenty two. We have an aircraft insight into the west of us. Two o'clock addition to. Fetter Twenty-two confirms visual paths on twenty one. He'd be a twenty two broader family friend close friend fed foster, captain foster was flying south as my dad was flying north and they passed each other and briefly communicated with each other twenty one. And then the captain foster continued south Roger. Three Roger cleared to maintain fourteen thousand. Three Vancouver to read. Did you hear mayday go to spend? Personally, dad's friend, Fred foster. He heard it. Apparently, it's very crackling posing just Meinie may Meinie couldn't wasn't even enough to distinguish it as having been the words of one person persons another what's one of the crew. Just many many mayday suddenly air traffic control is scrambling to try to figure out who that was and what they need. He twenty one thank over near read. Radio vancouver. We do. The beginning of the twenty one is not Brian just now can you company on that? Okay. Thank you. The few people that could here and did here wasn't too long before they realized a plane that had gone down. Outturn lactating one zero three hundred. This is the one that's my favorite photo. I love that photo is just to spark in his eyes. I remember he always referred to me is my little sister and once years and years ago, I won a Snow White contest. I was singing, and he was telling everybody about my little sister who won the Snow White contest. And it was getting a little bit embarrassing after point. That's how he introduced me Betty cork, captain, John steals younger sister. She sits in an immaculate white living room with her daughter. Julie John's framed photo is on the side table next to Betty's chair. They still use his nickname, Jack gentleman, Jack, which really was the way Jack was there was about nine years difference in our ages. But we were nevertheless, very close. If you can take us back to sort of the the summer of nineteen sixty five I was around thirty three we were just in our living room stunning up. Now that time we didn't have televisions we just had radio and I heard on the radio Canadian Pacific. So I was think oh what's happened. There's been a an accident at one hundred mile house, and I said the captain, John. They set. Steal course. Almost collapsed because nobody had told us it. Nobody told us that he'd been killed. I remember I wanted to just run. And there was a big field behind us. All I wanted to do was go out the door and just run run run. But my husband at the time grabbed me and held me very tight to come down. So he held me in that grip for about five minutes. Ten minutes to three -ality set him. What had happened? Nobody came out and spoke about how they feel. It was just wasn't done. I just felt helpless because I didn't know what to do Julie Betty starter sits across from us. She was just ten years old when the crash happened and the tragedy was that it never to happen because this unknown person whoever it is or was to this day has gone undetected. And I personally believe that the person who to detonated that are responsible was not on the plane. I believe it was somebody else. I I'm angry feel angry that somebody is still is walking around that did that. And the mystery is that he hasn't kept quiet about or maybe east deceased now. Tar to know. But I would like somebody to have to pay for doing all those wonderful people their lives. I really wanna know what happened, and it makes me extraordinarily angry that collectively. Whether it was the p or whoever it was at that time, whether they're afraid of lawsuits that has always been a big St. credit. So my hope is that whatever you are doing in terms of this documentary. It would be lovely. If there was some kind of closure to this. That was more than just our memories that we could come to something that would tell us what happened. What makes you think that it was somebody not on board? There's well it again, it's anecdotal evidence. So this is from my uncle Bill who is very much involved with the crash, and he mentioned the time that there was one person a man who year after the flight crashed his car into a into a rock face wall and died. And that was one indication the other was my cousin Cathy who is in a vehicle driving up to the crash site. And in the car at the same time was a person who'd worked for CPR who gave credence to that theory that there was some they knew it wasn't somebody who is on that flight. And that was the end of that conversation. The source. This theory seems to be Catherine steal Julius cousin and she was in a car with a man who said he also investigated the case, Doug Nessie. I said what is your belief you keep hearing about the four alleged persons that could have been involved nation while we have our own version. So for example, one of the cleaners of the aircraft's off someone getting on and she described kind of German style hat. He said, I don't believe that. He should I believe it was like a pilot or co-pilot or an engineers that she saw they all were a similar type of hats. What pilots wear kind of have according to police reports early on in the investigation, a cleaner working on C P twenty one said she saw a mysterious man with a receding chin wearing a narrow brimmed hat in a checker jacket described as a man with a moon shape face. And she said she saw the lavatory door moving as if it had just closed. The three other cleaning staff on board testified they saw no such man. I should. So the woman that saw the guy was the dermagraph style. Hiking hat on. Do you think that could have been who it was? He said she said, I have another story for Asia. This is one of our series. So the believe that one of the other pilots had been disciplined. And it was that person to put the might in the lavatory. And I said, well, how would prove that they said well on the one year anniversary of the crash. One of the CPR pilots drove himself head on into either. It was either a semi trailer or a rock wall up near hundred miles. And was killed. And he said as soon as they found out that guy had killed himself. They believed that is who the plane cleaner saw on board. That what convince the CPR investigators about foot- downplay twenty one and who did it. There is no hint of this theory in the coroner's hearing, nor in the thousands of pages of the reports we've read an and we can't verify this with Doug nasty because he's passed away. We have confirmed that this nasty did contribute to the pilot unions investigation on this case, and we have Catherine's account and her cousin. Mike steel. No. He was in the cars. Well, he mostly confirms it. But he does say that Nancy didn't link this pilot and the mystery men reported by the cleaner. I don't know if the air investigators ever went into the coroner's inquest. I don't they recalled as this is only because I truly do believe that Canadian litigation against them would have been huge if they're investigators had. Said anything like this in a coroner's inquest? This is the most detailed account that we've heard of this theory or rumor so far that the person who placed that bomb wasn't a passenger at all that it was a pilot who might have been punished somehow, and who may have been that mysterious man spotted by the cleaning woman. A we still weeks trying to figure out how much of this was true. So we can confirm that nasty was with the Canadian airline Pilots Association. But nobody from that association had a chance to testify at the coroner's inquest. We also know the RCMP question every single airport employees who is anywhere near CPA Twenty-one when it was on the ground in Vancouver before it took off no one else. Remember seeing a mysterious man with a moon shaped face and after giving her a lie detector test RCMP decided that the cleaner was not telling the truth. So what about a pilot who is disciplined RCMP node say that that they interviewed all CPR employees left the company for eighteen months before the crash, according to the Mounties, no one seemed to have a grudge and yet still some families believed that whoever plays that bomb on the plane locked away we have to keep digging into that idea of fifth suspect to see if it's possible. But we have to stay focused on the main suspects. Those four people who are on the plane. Silence. Was one of the investigators he stayed in close touch with the RCMP. So I said the Mounties had narrowed the list of suspects down to one. He's diary meticulous notes about this case. But he didn't write down the name of the man police thought was responsible. It took him thirty years before you opened up to a son Ken. And then another two decades before Ken chose to open up to us. Ken. Good. I'm. Nice to eat here. When did you first hear from your that? He and the RCMP were pretty sure who did it the night before the reunion. This would have been July seventh nineteen ninety five. I asked him point blank. I said, do you know who did it? And he said, we have a very good idea whom the responsible person was and there's a lot of evidence that points that direction, but it's all circumstance evidence. It's not anything that you could take the court and prove beyond the shadow doubts, this particular individual was responsible can has never spoken publicly about this before today were sitting at that same dining room table the same spot where kens dad, I told him. I said who wasn't. I remember him saying that this particular individual was one of the youngest of the four suspects. He was very much a loner from their investigation air C M P on no friends. No, no, close associations. Than belong to any organizations with the one exception of the shooting club at the mine where he worked in Kassel can insisted that he couldn't remember names. But everything he's describing fits what we know of Peter Broten. He had been a ban Cooper. And while he was there. You went to the Vancouver public library and checked out a book on Douglas piston power airliners of which DC six Bs were. When the RCMP visited his mother's home. The book was still there. Along with a one pound can of sixty percent nitro black gunpowder with approximately four ounces left in. That's one thing that he said was that sticks out very vividly in his mind permits discussions on the. In conjunction the individual concern was sitting in the very furthest seat possible away from where the bomb was placed bomb was in the portside toilet after. And this individual was in the very front right hand starboard side seat. So totally kiddy corner in the plane from where it was. One of their. Working theories with this individual was the they don't feel that he felt airplane would be destroyed. And that would be an explosion. Yes. But the airplane wouldn't go down the passengers on this particular aircraft with get some notoriety. He would have this fifteen minutes of fame because he is one of the passengers. Whether that's the case, you know, at this point. Nobody really knows. Another thing that that pointed them that direction that he didn't think the airplane was going down was if if your intent was to destroy the airplane went on us everything in the can. And why? That far away. One part of that. That's still I can't quite connect the dots on is is motive like I don't quite understand what the motive would be no. I can't help you. I don't honestly know who. Like, I say, the only the only thing they felt was that he felt he might get some notoriety. Just from being a passenger on there. But we didn't actually gain access to the RCMP's main file on Brown until months after we spoke with Ken, and it had some information that contradicted size recollection Brown's room had smokeless gunpowder in but not black gunpowder and black gunpowder is the kind that was founded the blast site. There were books on aviation. We have an itemized list. But none of those books had details on the DC six or DC six b the specific model the crashed. Does that change the fundamentals of size story? What was it? Like hearing your dad talk about that night. It was pretty unsettling. In all being I guess being privy to some of that information that really none of the families were aware the families really were kind of left in the dark after all this happened. Nearby was blown up and crashed. And now what? They knew what had happened. But they didn't know why. And to this day. I don't think they know one. I don't think anyone absolutely for one hundred percent certainty knows why. On the next bomb on board. So what do you think we what do you think we need then moving forward to shed new light on it, at least to probably think of a third of at least two things nagging things that bother me about Broten as the prime suspect. First of all. The lack of any apparent motive? Like, we're not talking about a guy who picks up a gun and inexplicably starts to shoot. It. We're talking about somebody. Built a bomb or created some kind of explosive to put on a plane like that's up pretty, you know, you don't like so. Like, this big notion that somehow he wanted the notoriety of having been on this plane that stuff doesn't make sense to that the lack of voter. Yeah. Thinking about that a lot too. But you know, something just popped into my head. I mean, this is just seem silly. But what if the black gunpowder is almost a red herring? That phrase. We need a very clear sense of what caused that explosion or likely caused that explosion. And why there would have been black gunpowder there at all? I think you're right. We need we need an explosives expert, and that that may shed some more light on on Brandon. Oh, hi, it's Hannah, you know, the lack of a while. With that frontal pilot bomb on the plane. I found him say holy shit. Like the guy. Uncover bomb on board is hosted by me Hannah, Man, Singh and Johann wag staff, it's produced by Mika Anderson, and Paula sheer and written by Mika paulie, Johanna and me. Our socio producer is Lena gauche. Tiffany Foxcroft is are pretty with the national mixing and sound design, by Anderson Paula year and Mitchell Stewart additional sound design on this episode by Tom how Sarah Claydon is our digital producer. Our senior producer is Tania spring, and our executive producer is or if any subscribe to the series wherever you get your podcasts. We're at CBC dot CA slash uncovered. And we want to hear from you. If you have any information, you think is important for us to know as we investigate this case. Please leave us a message at our toll free number one eight eight eight two two four two nine four night. If you have tips that you think may help us solve this case. Or if this crash touched you and your family and some way or you want to share a story of a loved one, please get in touch that's one eight eight eight two two four two nine four nine. You can also Email tips to uncover at CBC dot CA. Bomb on board is a co production of CBC podcasts and the national to watch the nationals documentary on the story. Please checkout CBC dot CA slash the national for two into CBC television on December ten. If you like our show, be sure to check out other CBC podcasts like the secret life of Canada, an unconventional history podcast that mixes Canada's passed and pop culture. It's weird. It's quirky and it peeks into the corners of Canada's hidden history. 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