5 Episode results for "Ranjit Singh"
S8: Treasure Hunt: The Great Mogul Diamond
"It outlasted the reign of kings survived the fall of empires but after the assassination of its final owner in seventeen. Forty-seven all records of the great mogul. Diamond virtually disappeared. If you enjoy this episode and want to hear. More Tales of history's most mystifying. Disappearances subscribe to our series gone today in addition to new episodes of gone. Every other Monday. You'll get a special mini episode on off Monday's but only on spotify until then enjoy this road in seventeen thirty nine Persian emperor dear Shah led an army of approximately twenty thousand men against Mohammad. Shah the mogul emperor of India in a ruthless invasion deer and his decimated Muhammed's armies in what is known as the battle of Karnal. Muhammed eventually surrendered handing over his empire in Delhi. This empire wasn't only land but included something so rare tantalizing its true value was incalculable. The great mogul diamond. However this two hundred eighty carat gemstone came with a curse. Those who came into contact with a great diamond had gone bankrupt been exiled and had their entire empire thrown now dear. Its new owner was not spared in seventeen forty seven. Assassins broke into New Year's quarters and decapitated him. And just like that. The Great Mogul. Diamond disappeared from the annals of history. Hi I'm molly and I'm Richard. Welcome to gone the show where we search for everything missing every other Monday. We examined mysterious disappearances. The theories they spawned from the Amber Room to Michael Rockefeller the Costco paintings. To the address can language the roanoke colony to the lost Russian cosmonauts. If it's gone we're looking for it. You can find previous episodes as well as podcasts. Other podcasts on your favorite podcast directory. Some of you have been asking how you can support gone if you enjoy the show. The best way to support us is to leave a five star review. Wherever you listen today we will be looking into the seventeen forty seven disappearance of the great mogul diamond which arose from the dirt of a dried riverbed in India and became one of the world's most puzzling precious stones. The Great Mogul. Diamond had a brief and troubling history. It was kept as a testament to its owners wealth and power but it was never in the same hands for long. The brilliant diamond witnessed this exile of kings and the fall of empires but in seventeen forty-seven after the assassination of its final owner. All records of the diamond virtually disappeared. How could such a grand treasurer be so quickly lost to time? Our first theory claims that it ended up in the British crown. Jewels after England's colonisation of India. Our second theory assumes that the diamond is actually masquerading as another famous diamond. The Orlov now residing in a Russian museum but whether it's hiding in plain sight or the diamond remains in some other unknown location. The great mogul diamond remains a much sought after mystery to fully explore this story. We must go back to the Diamond's origins at the center of the Earth. Most people believed that diamonds come from coal but the truth is coal. Rarely plays a part in the formation of diamonds coal is produced by ancient plant deposits on the earth's surface but most diamonds come from the Earth's mantle nearly one hundred miles below the surface and when diamonds emerged from those extreme depths. Don't come quietly there. Spewed out through violent volcanic eruptions known as Kimberlite eruptions. These are extremely rare and it is believed that the less kimberlite eruption occurred more than twenty five million years ago. The great mogul diamond was most likely formed from one of these eruptions. It was discovered along the Krishna River in the Gulf Kanda Mine. In India India was the birthplace of the diamond trade which probably began around four hundred BC. In fact until seventeen twenty five when diamonds were first discovered in Brazil? India was the only source of these gems. These unique stones were quickly seen as valuable indicators of class status and traded along the Silk Road a network of trade routes connecting the east with the West not to mention early civilizations actually believed the diamonds were gifts from the Gods and those who found or received them would be blessed with wealth strength and good health if that was the case they must have believed the great mogul diamond. Would bring them immortality because it was so massive in sixteen fifty six when it made its first real appearance and written histories. The Islamic mogul empire was thriving India prusiene Emperor Shah Jehan whose name means King of the world presided over the throne and his taste for extravagance reflected this estes title in sixteen thirty two. He commissioned the famed Taj Mahal in Agra a stunning mausoleum built for his young wife after her death Shah Jehan also had the famous peacock throne adorned with gold and covered in rubies emeralds and pearls built for himself but he was about to get even fancier because in sixteen fifty six a wealthy general named Emir Gem. La came to Delhi and met with Shah Jehan to establish good diplomatic relations. Jemma worked for Abdulah King of Gaul Kanda India and was trying to broker an alliance between the two leaders. But he didn't come empty-handed among his gifts for the emperor was the great diamond at the time it was the largest diamond ever discovered in its rough original state. This stone way to wapping seven hundred eighty seven and a half carrots. That's equal to more than one hundred and fifty seven grams about as heavy as a billiards ball or half as heavy as a human heart. That's huge the average size for an engagement ring in the US in two thousand seventeen was zero point nine carrots so not even one carat and that size goes for about six thousand dollars depending on design retailer and other factors to give vague sense of its value. One of the largest diamonds ever sold at auction one hundred and eighteen carat diamond a fraction of the size of the great mogul. That went for thirty point. Six million dollars in two thousand thirteen as for what it looked like it has been described as an egg cut in half. The top end formed a cone shape. The opposite end a flat circle. This shape was referred to as a rose cut because the shape somewhat resembles a Rosebud. Rose cuts are relatively rare and this gave the great mogul diamond and even more unique quality. Jehan was quite pleased with a gift but ordered that the diamond be cut to make it fit for an emperor such as he the stone in its natural state would not do. There were too many aesthetic flaws like lines and cracks which in jeweler speak are called inclusions. Ancient Indian text. The ran up periscope alluded to the importance of a flawless diamond. Saying quote. Wise men not use a diamond with visible flaws. As a gem end quote so Jehan hired or ten CIO born Gio of Venetian lapidary or gemstone cutter to refine it. Bora Gio began cutting the stone grinding away. All the problematic flaws but go figure the more he ground the smaller and lighter stone God after Borgias work. The stone was a mirror. Two hundred eighty three carats less than half the size of the original this way about two ounces as much as a staff of twelve nichols not a billiards ball. But still quite the hefty jewel. Unfortunately the new size and weight became a bit of a problem. The size of the stone was one of its primary appeals Emperor Shah. Jehan was furious so much so he wanted to execute Borneo for his poor workmanship but Jehan stopped short of that instead. He Find Bores. Yo Ten thousand rupees. Basically all the money. That diamond cutter had to his name. Borgias page gone and laughed a very poor and shamefaced man. It seemed that bore Joe may have been the first man to fall prey to the curse of the great mogul. Several years later in sixteen fifty seven. John became very ill in his old age. This launched a competition for the throne between his four sons. The Youngest Orange Zab killed one of his brothers and eventually claimed the empire. He sent his father away to the Red Fort. A Sandstone fortress located on the Yarmuk River it was basically a prison for Shah Jehan where he spent the last years of his life until his death in sixteen. Sixty six whatever happened to respecting your elders. Let alone your own father and I have to ask could. The so called. Curse of the diamond have led to John's plight possibly but we can also blame orange ebbs greed. He wanted the kingdom and all its treasures to himself including the great mogul diamond are exempt kept all that he wrongfully inherited in a special chamber in the palace he was very proud of it is collection. Caught the eye of a famous jewel merchant from France named John Baptiste. Tavernier Tavernier was a world traveler. And Jim Aficionado who made six voyages to the East between sixteen thirty to sixteen sixty eight. He wrote extensively about his experiences. Eventually publishing the two volume book the six voyages of Jean Baptiste Tavernier. It became a best seller and was translated into four languages in his lifetime. This man was so obsessed with diamonds that he traveled at his own expense in search of them and reveled in the opportunity to study them since only royalty in the extremely affluent could get hold of such prizes tavern. Yay met with a lot of important global leaders. He was known internationally for his expertise. Gemstones one such leader which Schaja Han Sun King. Orange Ebb who led Tavernier get acquainted with the great mogul diamond officers? Escort Tavernier into a small chamber where the king was sitting on his throne. Tavernier then met the chief keeper of the Jewels Cal Khan who commanded for UNIX to fetch the stones. They brought the gems out on gilded wooden trays covered with red velvet cloths to protect them such presentation and understandably so. Tavernier was awed by all this documented. The experience writing quote the first piece which CAL CON put in. My hands was the great diamond. Which is around. Rose cut very high on one side on the lower edge. There is a slight crack and a little flaw in it. It's water is beautiful unquote water refers to a diamonds degree of brilliance. According to Ta- Varney a the great mogul was extremely bright and sparkly to put it in simpler terms. It made quite the impression on him and he forever immortalized it by drawing a sketch of it in his book after this Tavernier's continued on his journey of Jules. Leaving the great mogul behind better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. They say the diamond remained with the mogul empire passing hands to an emperor by the name of Mohammad Shah in seventeen nineteen a little over fifty years after Orange Ebrell the region but it would not stay with this new leader for long. Perhaps we have the curse to blame for that because Emperor Muhammad Shah was in for a world of trouble. Could the great mogul diamond had been responsible for the fall of Mohammed shots empire? We'll find out after the break now. Back to the story in seventeen. Thirty EIGHT MOGUL. Emperor Mohammad Shop possessed one of the region's most valued treasures. The great mogul diamond. But that and everything else Mohammed owned was about to be threatened a bloodthirsty emperor from Persia was coming for the mogul empire. His name was nadir's born in sixteen. Eighty eight in Khorasani Persia nuclear grew up a poor peasant. He was forced into slavery but escaped captivity and eventually became a soldier. The military was where he thrived nuclear advanced quickly there but when he conflicted with a high ranking official name dear went rogue and formed his own army bold move definitely and it set the stage for. Nadir's rise to power in seventeen twenty nine. He freed Persia from Afghan control and seven years later ascended to the throne as emperor of Persia not long after he went on conquering rampage throughout much of the East which led him to just outside of Delhi India with a foolproof strategy for a takeover at Karnal Sixty eight miles north of Delhi. Nadu Shah Army of twenty thousand against Muhammad Shah's forces consisting of nearly three hundred thousand soldiers and two thousand war elephants. Although the deers troops were greatly outnumbered. Muhammed's forces had a disadvantage. There artillery was fairly antiquated. Much too heavy and hard to maneuver. Nadir's Shaw ever. The military strategist used a three prong approach dividing his limited troops into three main sectors. Using one of these lines of offense a diversion shock commanded an ambush and it was downhill for the mogul troops from there. The Persians defeated their enemy within three hours of the battles start. This was the beginning of the end of the mogul dynasty. Mohammad Shah soon handed over his empire tuna dear soon after the deer began enforcing strict laws and taxation on citizens. The Persian military presence was oppressive and soldiers were quick to punish civilians. This intern catalyzed an uprising. Civilians fought back killing the dears men when the deer himself wrote out from his newly claimed palace a man fired a musket at him narrowly missing him. This was the last Straw and it drove nuttier to seek safety the top of a mosque once there. He ordered his men to enter all the areas where Persian soldiers were being attacked and kill every civilian inside erased. His sword which signalled the start of a massacre around thirty thousand civilians including women and children were killed by Persians. After the bloodshed deer had his men plunder all the riches and treasures of the mogul dynasty stealing the famous peacock throne and of course the legendary. Great Mogul diamond. Sadly Nadir's bloodlust only increased as he traveled the lands to gain more territory. He loved war and he took pride and decimating villages and cities at one point. When told that there would be no war in the afterlife? Dear responded with quote there be any delights there end quote. His murderous rampages caught up with him though and he developed severe liver and gastrointestinal problems not to mention his mind began to get the best of him as he became increasingly psychotic. Time went on then in seventeen forty one and assassination attempt. Put him over the edge. Nadiri was convinced that his eldest son raise Kuli Mirza was the man behind the plot so he had him blinded six years later afternoon. Deers physical and mental states continued to deteriorate. Several of his commanders. Entered his private quarters while he slept wants there. They attacked him but he awoke and fought back. He killed two of them but the others managed to cut off his head thus in seventeen forty seven. Now Dear Shaw's violent reign came to an end. Dear left behind a treasure trove among the valuables. The great mogul diamond or so. We think we don't know for sure because afternoon deers death. The diamond couldn't be found or tract. Where did that majestic stone sneak off to? Was it strategically taken or did it simply get lost in the mix? One thing to note is that the great mogul diamond is only called that in John. Baptiste Tavernier's report. That's the name he gave. It many believed that the great mogul diamond could have become the Kohinoor diamond. The great mogul diamond disappeared from written history. Leaving no track record so when a similar diamond popped up in British records some historians in jewelers suggested it was actually that same stone making a reappearance. Let's take a look at the story of the Kohinoor and see if it lines up with the great mogul. First of all Kohinoor means mountain of light in Persian. According to an article in scientific American it was NYDIA. Who named the great mogul the Kohinoor? When he first laid eyes on it this would have been in seventeen thirty nine when it fell into his hands. After the battle of Karnal perhaps the great mogul was simply renamed by. It's last confirmed. Owner mountain of light sounds as though it would benefit anyone who possessed it however Hindu taxed claimed only a woman could wear the Kohinoor. If a man owned it he would be cursed another aspect which links the two diamonds making a case for their shared. Identity Bright Schaja. Jehan died in captivity after his son basically imprisoned him dear Shah was murdered by his own men in the story of the Coen afternoon dear. Shah's death the stone passed to one of his generals Ahmad Shah Durrani his descendant Shah Shujaat. Durrani eventually got a hold of the diamond and brought it back to India in eighteen thirteen in the early nineteenth century. The kohinoor diamond passed his shy Shia Aghanistan who had inherited it now the Maharaja of Punjab India a man by the name of Ranjit Singh got wind of the Kohinoor Prestige. And he wanted it badly. He tried to strike a deal with the Afghan leader. But Shaw Shia. Didn't want to hand it over. This caused some diplomatic issues and mighty the political waters between the two regions sing stalled by lying several times. I saying that he pawned the Kohinoor. Then saying it was lost with a bunch of other jewels and after the third request he sent a Topaz gem to run Jeet Singh claiming that was the jewel seeing was furious at the ruse and in a surprising power. Move sent a guard. She has house to prevent him from drinking or eating for two days. She finally caved and agreed to hand over the diamond and so it made its way to a new owner yet again in eighteen forty-three duleep Singh. The last of Ranjit Singh sons became the ruler of Punjab and inherited the Kohinoor. He was only ten years old at the time while this was going on. The British of the east India Company and the sick empire were entangled in a series of wars for control of the continent. The east India company had first arrived on the shores of India in sixteen hundred eight with two goals in mind established trade and acquire territory in Sixteen fifteen. The British established a factory at Seurat eventually formed several trading posts along the coast the British established large communities around the three primary cities of Calcutta Bombay and Madras. But what started out. As a business venture eventually transformed into a military takeover the company gained a stronghold in the region and eventually began to dominate Indian government and education by eighteen forty nine the British claimed the ultimate victory and gained ownership of Lahore the capital city of Punjab. And guess what the British wanted the Kohinoor. They made this clear in the treaty. They forced young. Delete sing to sign. Part of the treaty read quote. The Gem called the Kohinoor shall be surrendered by the Maharaja of Lahore to the Queen of England. End Quote once surrendered. The diamond was put in supposedly safe keeping. It was weighed at one hundred. Eighty seven carrots which is almost one hundred less than the last week of the great mogul. So if the Kohinoor is the great mogul diamond. It would have been cut some time in the century between. Shawna deers and the British acquisition of the diamond. It seems odd that any owners would wanna cut the diamond while Tavernier did not a slight flaw that an owner might have wanted to remove cutting the diamond. That severely seems illogical. Losing so many carrots would certainly sink. Its value but there are earier similarities. Between the great mogul diamond and the Kohinoor once it was weighed. Three members of the British government at Punjab were tasked with holding the Kohinoor until they were ordered to do otherwise. One of those men John Lawrence would be the one to keep it on his person but one night lawrence place the diamond which was now encased in a box inside his coat pocket however when he changed for dinner and removed his coat he forgot to transfer the diamond about six weeks later. The men received a message. That Queen Victoria wanted the diamond immediately and then came the Ono Moment for Lawrence. He didn't know where the diamond was. We'll find out where the diamond went after the break now back to the story in eighteen fifty nine John Lawrence tasked with protecting the Kohinoor. Diamond had forgotten it in his coat pocket several weeks earlier and now the queen of England herself was ordering it to be delivered to her as soon as possible pretending he knew exactly where it was lawrence quickly ran to find his servant and asked if he had found anything in his coat pocket weeks earlier the servant replied yes. I've found it and put it in one of your boxes. The Servant brought the box to him and Lawrence opened it to find the diamond safe and sound. Well can you imagine the Relief Lawrence must have felt what a close call? Indeed it was. It could have easily been stolen or lost. And that would have been a hefty price to pay now that the diamond was located. It was on. Its Way to England but I it had to survive the streets of Bombay India and some of its rougher areas it passed through unscathed and once it reached London it was put an iron box and deposited in the government treasury on July third eighteen. Fifty the deputy chairman hand delivered to Buckingham Palace for the Queen. But as it crossed into Britain's epicenter it brought with it the whispers of suspicion. The legend of this diamond that it carried a bad luck curse became a rumor that swept the nation in many were wary of its potential power this curse is reminiscent of the curse that came with the great mogul diamond the similarities between that and the Kohinoor are stacking up and this curse only made the Kohinoor more alluring in England. It debuted in the great exhibition in the Crystal Palace in Hyde Park people came in droves to view it. It was the toast of the town but then people started to talk and criticize the diamond. The main note was that it didn't shine as brilliantly as everyone had hoped and there was one important man who agreed with the sentiment. Prince Albert Queen. Victoria's husband so he ordered it. Be Re cut and polished. Prince Albert hired a Dutchman vermonter reputable diamond cutter who travelled to London to do the work. This process took thirty eight days. The GEM now weighed one hundred five carrots but the re cutting allowed. It's face to reflect more light so it appeared to be brighter and more brilliant clean. Victoria began wearing it as broach. There's a photo of her taken in eighteen. Eighty seven in which is in diamonds but the Kohinoor stands out as the largest and most notable. The stone wouldn't stay in. That broke forever though. It was eventually placed in the center of a Royal Crown and Queen. Alexandra Victoria's daughter-in-law was the first to wear it. Then in nineteen thirty seven the Kohinoor was reset into a new crown and the Queen. Mother began wearing it. The Queen Mother refers to Elizabeth Angela Marguerite Bowes Lyon the wife of King George the sixth and the mother of Queen Elizabeth the second and Princess Margaret. She even wore it at her own funeral in two thousand two. That was the last time the Kohinoor made a public appearance. The diamond remains in the crown and now resides in the jewel house in the Tower of London. There's been much controversy surrounding the true of this diamond Indian. Government officials have repeatedly demanded it be returned citing that it was forcibly taken during England's colonisation of India. According to an article from the Telegraph posted in two thousand sixteen the Ministry of Culture said quote the government of India further reiterates. Its resolve to make all possible efforts to bring back the Kohinoor diamond in an amicable manner and quote and the controversy continues to this day but the history of the Kohinoor prior to being in British hands is muddy. And it's hard to verify who exactly owned it or where exactly it came from other than a mine in Gull Kanda the same area. The great mogul diamond came from. Could this mean that the Kohinoor was indeed the great mogul diamond at one point? And perhaps it was only its name. That changed a meteorologist by the name of James Tennant thinks so he believes that the Kohinoor displays similarities to the great mogul described by expert jeweler. Jean Baptiste Tavernier. During his study of IT tenant rights quote. The KOHINOOR had a flaw near the summit. Which being on a line of cleavage parallel to the upper surface may very possibly have been produced when the upper portion was removed and quote. If you'll recall much of the great mogul was removed in the mid sixteen hundreds when Shaw Johann had cut however the Coen ores wait never matched up with the great mogul. According to record the last known weight of the Great Mogul was two hundred. Eighty three carrots but when the Cohen nor made it to England it was only one hundred eighty seven carrots. Some historians believe that. This is because jean-baptiste have rene may have recorded an inaccurate weighed when he wrote about the great mogul in his report. Interesting putting the Kohinoor aside for a moment there's another name another identity that the great mogul could have assumed it's time to hear the story of the Orlov diamond which ended up in the hands of Russian. Empress Catherine the great in seventeen sixty eight. This story is steeped much more in mystery legend and criminal intrigue and it begins in the temple of wrong in southern India. It's unclear how this legend originated but it's closely tied with the Orlov inside a temple. Dating back to the mid seventeenth century stands a statue of the Deity. Lord Ranga Nafa. His eyes were composed of two stunning diamonds. In the mid eighteenth century several countries were competing for territory in India in what is known as the Karnad wars during this time. A French soldier abandoned his post and deserted his unit going under the radar. He found a job near the town of three wrong as he worked. He listened to the locals. Speak of the temple and the idol. -taining the precious jewels. This Frenchman's desire was sparked any knew he had to steal the diamonds. But this would be a most impossible mission. Why because only Hindus were allowed in the temple and the statue remained in a sacred space several enclosures deep so the Frenchman converted to Hinduism and gain the trust of several priests. Who worked in the temple? Eventually he gained access inside and as he continued to prove his devotion he was given the task of Guardian to the Central Shrine. Not long after he began serving. They're a storm struck the land and the Frenchman found himself alone inside the temple. He saw his window of opportunity. He approached the statue stared up at the gleaming. Diamond is and began to pry one from. It's socket until it came free after this. He must have gotten scared because instead of prying out the other diamond. The Frenchman fled. He climbed the temple. Walls managed to swim across a river and navigated the nearby jungles until he reached the city of Madras there. He quickly sold the diamond to a British Sea. Captain for much less than it was worth probably so he could get out of the area quickly with some money in his pocket and maybe he was afraid of possible curse. It was rumored to carry after that. The diamond was sold several times by different merchants until it was purchased by a man named Shaw Friis. He was an Armenian diamond dealer. Living in Amsterdam the year was seventeen. Sixty eight twenty one years after the great mogul disappeared following the deer. Shah's assassination count Gregory Gregoria. Vich Orlov bought the diamond from SCHAAF. Ross in Amsterdam like the Frenchman or love to was on a mission but instead of stealing a jewel he was looking to steal back a heart. The heart of Catherine the great born in Prussia in seventeen twenty nine and originally called Sophie Catherine was the daughter of a German prince who didn't have much money to his name but what he lacked in funds he hadn't connections and Catherine was married off to Peter the third of the Romanov dynasty in Seventeen forty-five hardly match made in heaven. The two couldn't stand each other. Peter inherited the throne in seventeen sixty two but he was strongly disliked by his people including his wife who decided to take a lover Count Orlov. They began an affair and with the help of a secret group of conspirators planned the assassination of her husband. Peter once the assassination was carried out in seventeen sixty two catherine became empress. The throne was hers. It was a new horizon involving new responsibilities and new desires or loft became a thing of the past for her. She had her eyes set on new suitors. Orlov was crushed. He was determined to win Catherine back. And that's what led him to the jeweler named shoppers. Who showed him? The stunning rose cut diamond. He bought it immediately and had it sent to Catherine while she accepted the diamond with much delight. She didn't rekindle her romance with. Olaf but she did shower him with lavish gifts as she did all her lovers. That was the end of their story. But not the end of the diamonds it was placed in the imperial sceptre. A metal rod wielded by the person in power the diamond remains in the sceptre which is displayed in the diamond. Find in the Kremlin Museum in Russia. Now there are a number of reasons why some historians have claimed this diamond. Could be the great mogul I is the striking similarity between the ARL off and the drawing done by Bob. Tease Tavernier back in sixteen sixty five. Both diamonds have the same half egg shape. Both arose cut stones with similar facets and their collaring both diamonds are described as white with a hint of the slightest blue. But there's a specific detail that seems to really intrigued. Historians Tavernier wrote about it saying there was a slight crack and flaw at the bottom of the great mogul. They're also happens to be a slight indentation at the base of the Orlov. That could be this very flaw. The weight of the Orlov is about one hundred and ninety carrots slightly more than the Kohinoor was when it first came to England however neither diamond matches the supposed weight of the great mogul various jewel experts and historians have debated whether the great mogul might have taken on a new identity following the chaos of war yet. There's another theory that has been tossed around that. The Great Mogul Wisconsin to several smaller pieces and all those pieces went their separate ways. While this is possible it seems as though whoever came into possession of the great mogul would want to preserve its grandiosity to maintain its value. Which leaves us with the likely scenario that the great mogul adopted a new name and is hiding in plain sight. The question is which name did it take? I think it makes the most sense that the great mogul became the Kohinoor. Nadir's Shaw who acquired the great mogul after defeating Muhammad Shah called it the co in nor because it reminded him of a mountain of light also. When drawings were done of the Kohinoor in England it had a similar diameter. To the great mogul when drawn by Jean Baptiste. Tavernier some good points. But I have to say. I think it's a stronger possibility that it became the Orlov. I say this because of the color the Kohinoor is simply a white diamond noticeable bluish tinge the Orlov has that blue color attributed to the great mogul. The diamonds also share the unusual rose cut and the Orlov diamond closely resembles Tavernier's drawing. Well I guess we have to acknowledge that. There's no definitive answer. But I will say this. If you'll recall the great mogul dynasty supposedly carried with it occurs that its owner would face terrible misfortune if the owner was a man but any female owner would be immune to the. Kerr's and actually prosper. If we look back at the history of the Kohinoor especially the female leaders wore it we see a long line of British women surviving and Thriving Queen Victoria Queen. Alexandra Queen Mary the Queen Mother and even though she doesn't wear it the diamonds current owner Queen Elizabeth. The second is the longest reigning monarch since Queen Victoria. So if you believe the two diamonds are one and the same. You're admitting that you buy into the legend of its curse. I guess I am Yes. Well whatever the true identity of the great mogul is. Now we know the great mogul in all its brilliance. Despite its so called imperfections sparked greed it fed into human hubris. It was one of the most coveted rewards in the spoils of war. It saw many wars deaths and assassinations through it sometimes. Tragic always tense history. The great mogul diamond has probably stood witness to more than we can even imagine. Thanks for tuning in to gone. If you WANNA find more episodes or any of par casts other podcasts you can find us on apple podcast stitcher. Google play cast box tune in your favorite podcast directory. Many of you have asked us how you can help the show. If you enjoy the show the best way you can do that is to leave. A five star review. You can also tell us your theories on facebook and Instagram at podcast on twitter at podcast network or at PODCAST DOT com. We'll be back in two weeks with another episode. Just because it's gone doesn't mean it can't be found gone was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast network it is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler sound design by Schroeder with production assistance by Ron Shapiro. Paul Molitor Maggie Admire and Carly Madden Gun is written by Jessica Malo and Stars Molly Brandenburg and Richard Rosner.
Ep. 37: Coronavirus Exploited by Governments to Kill Liberty
"The Michael Chaney show pumping unlicensed liberty and financial freedom directly into your eardrums. Here's your host and Arco Capitalist Cheney. Hello and welcome to today's episode Corona virus exploited by governments said Kale Liberty. I'm so confused. Live from my secret bunker in the highlands of stolen. I'm currently was going to say Walter. I'm actually under hand sanitizer. Yes I filled my bunker with hand sanitizer and I'm now able to vice. Click keep alive and breathe underneath and total hands sanitized Phil bonker. What yet that seems to be what most people are doing to try and survive. The Corona virus is just going by hand sanitizer in most places in the UK is now sold out. Why is absolutely ridiculous while we're GonNa talk about that and we're also going to talk about how the government is sneaking through the by Daw and sometimes not even through the back door new measures new powers and new laws to further infringe against our liberties in the US and the UK and further? Afield as well as we're talking about today have one of these up. Yes this will be a very nice day virus which is highly unlikely all you full victims to some of the government. The some of the government overreach the is taking place as a result of this fire. Because let's face it government's just brilliant jumping on a crisis never never waste a crisis always make sure that you jump on their feet first and use it to kill many liberties as you can. So He's all of this justified. Let's talk about the current advice on a couple episodes on it already and I want to bring you up to date on where it's that time of recording. These are the latest figures I've got from World Amish covered nine thousand nine. Currently has no point nine percent death rates if you don't have preexisting conditions so all the fear mongering all the daily headlines at all. Oh it's emergencies and shut down and yet atte- if you don't have any pre existing conditions and mainly that means respiratory problems hop problems or cancer. You don't have any of those your chances of dying. If you catch it right you've got to catch it. I obviously if you're one of the very unlucky ones actually catches it if you have any of those preexisting conditions your chances of then dying from an unknown point nine percent. Okay if that isn't put your mind at rest that I don't know what would the death rate if you're under fifty is less than naught point five percent that's even if you had all resisting conditions and if you fifty to sixty nine? It's only point six percent again if you had those pre existing conditions so hopefully not listening to this aged eighty five with cancer lung. Problems are issues and breathing difficulties. If you are yes come. Join me in my hand. Sanitizer filled Onkar but otherwise. Yeah I don't really think this not much of a worry about it. I'm not again. I'm not undermining. I'm not trying to belittle it. Yes a lot of people have died and lock people have called to and yes it's continued to grow the mortality rate of is increased. If now optic from two percent I believe the World Health Organization's now to three point six percent. It's not a small thing. But it's not as big as they're making now and there's lots of things that government doing what you want to talk about today that basically out of order and the using the cover of the corona virus to sneak these things through there was a piece of fans on a Thomson Reuters site and they spoke to a guy called Ranjit Singh Cheema. He's a direct access now which is a digital rights nonprofit organization and this is what he had to say. Quote governments are legitimizing tools of oppression as tools of public health. The danger is that these measures stay in place and the data continues to be collected and used. We've seen this happened in the past after major events in China and after nine eleven in the USA obviously Patriot Act. Everybody's familiar with that. We're GONNA talk about that. 'cause it's rearing its head once again and yeah in. China after the join the Olympics when they got the Olympics they rolled out a whole bunch of Legislature new powers for surveillance. Which very strangely. They never rolled back. They put them in place. Ville in pick some. They're still still in place today. Another example Moscow is currently using facial. Technology is actually ensure people are ordered to remain home or in the hotels. So they've got this technology now which can recognize your face and it knows if you're on this database of people who've got the virus or at risk. If not staying at home it will self an alarm and presumably you'll be destroyed with a nuclear bomb. I'm not quite sure on that last year but the rest of it is accurate but China is really the goto place if if we don't talk about Government overreach China's just a shining example is is a leading light of government overreach and all the governments around the world look at it admiringly and just wishing that they could get away with that one day and to be honest. I probably will in China right now. It's insane I mean yes. Obviously this is the epicenter of the current of is Thousands of people have lost lives and again. I'm not belittling down not undermining that. I'm not trying to devalue any of the lives that have been lost but once again government is jumping on this crisis and using it to his own advantage to further infringe on liberties. The moment if you need if you want to travel anywhere in China you need to either text the government and tell them where you're going or you need to have a special APP on your own the automatically tells the government where you're going. I certainly in the lodge Cities Right determines whether you can go into certain buildings whether you can use the subway Whether you need to submit self quarantine and so on and they have this thing. I've seen this amazing video of a subway entrance and I'm not talking about a sandwich shop. A subway entrance and they have a god checking everybody's cell phone and on the cellphone is an APP now in this particular province. I think there's millions of people is probably the continental exciting but there are several million people in this particular province. Ninety over ninety percent of people have downloaded. This APP is a government APP. Remember everything over. There is ruined by all the telecommunications companies are government communications companies state media state telecom state cell phone. Stay everything and overnights knife centre people's download this APP and you have to get this APP in order to travel and what it does it gives you one of those qr codes you know. There's a little funny black and white codes. You get it you scan at station and every time you travel it reports back in central dice about who you are way. You were way traveled from a to but also it's interactive okay. This is the scary. Because what happens is it's got three codes green amber or red if the code on your phone and this APP is green free to travel. And that's what the God was. Checking subway insurance he was checking everybody's cowed on their Farnell. Kind of sites is on the phone. Everybody is green. Gets if you've got amber or red you did not get end. You cannot travel and in some cases you report to the authorities. If you don't have the APP you can't travel so there's a lot of old older people that don't have maybe even have been a lot of stuff kicking off about that. Don't have the apple that don't know how to get it. But if you get this red flag if you get the amber warning or the red warning and you can't control how that happens. Many people have been given it. What they they think because of their geographical location. They're not being told. Nobody's telling them how this has been assigned a what the reasons are behind or even how to remove it once you've got it if you check your phone one morning and you go into this APP thinking. Can I go to work today are can I travel? Can I go see my family? Can I go buy food? Get on the subway. Can I go in this building end to this housing complex? Use THIS APP. Because if you don't use it you're not. GonNa get in you. Open the APP in the morning. If you see red you see a red warning there. You'll label is turned red. You Ain't going anywhere sunshine. You cannot Again is so you can go in certain buildings you've got a self quarantine or regard reports authorities and there's nothing you can do about it. They don't tell you why and they don't tell you how to remove it so of course. A lot of people are going absolutely crazy about this or as crazy as you can go in China under communist rule but again it's it's been yes ultimately originally it's been rolled out to try and cut back on the corona virus. And you can kind of understand at least from that point of view but think of this. What else are they going to be using this for? They're going to be rolling out. I mean they've already rolled out and tons of different cities. The chances are they're going to be doing this on on a permanent basis anyway. They've already got that social credit score when they give you actual points rating every person's go points rating on. How much stuff bad stuff? They've donner infringements. They'd had against them. If you go certain score then you won't be allowed to travel. You'll be tracked down or you'll be prevented from entering certain places and so this is just taking that to the degree and now sending all the information from their phone to the authorities to the police. This was from fortune. I got this from a fortune pace quote as a Friday passengers writing Shanghai subway required to scan. Qr codes plastic inside the train. Carriages that will verify the user's phone number which is linked to their. Id Cracknell record record of their movements. So that that basically tracking everything now in China there trucking way of going which subways using the duration of your journey. How often you using your phone all of this stuff so yeah? According to the New York Times The systems already in place in two hundred cities and is being rolled out nationwide. So it's not just doing this in Wuhan it's not just doing in Maine. Aries have been affected by the virus. There rolling this out world nationwide across China. I'm and as I say they've they've done things like this. In the past in the Olympics Beijing Olympics in two thousand and eight they introduced new tools. That were you know went way beyond the original purpose and still you know still in place. In addition to that there's various companies in China have been tasked with with changing the way they operate to further infringe on people's Liberties. There and you know sink that see further into this kind of surveillance issue. There's an AI. Artificial Intelligence and Security Company and China. One of them pulled a sense time. And it's a companies what seven point five billion dollars in it does facial recognition. It's actually tweaked software now so that it can recognize people from that is alone. Why would they do that? Because most people in China now wearing a mask the white surgical mask and so they've tweaked that facial recognition software. So now they can. They can still find people because the social credit score and can still imprisoned them for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Doing the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing Even if they've got a mask on there's another company called Meg. V and which is another artificial intelligence company and they actually deployed temperature checking tool in Beijing so this still will monitor individuals. And we'll actually set up south an alarm if their individualism abnormal temperature presented go to favorite. It's going to sell from the law so a guard or whatever would check person again. Intentions of these are the pure intention. If we are to be honest honestly it trusts. The intelligence of the Chinese government chose intentions of any any government. Yes they're trying to cut down on the vice again. It's yet another infringement. Basically tracking everything you do everywhere you go What you say I anything on your phone. Even your internal body temperature is just crazy. It's just crazy. I also found a piece on wired which is interesting. Let me read this out to you. Quote John Brownstein Chief Innovation Officer Harvard Medical School and experts mining social media information. The health trends is part of an international team using machine learning to come through social media posts news reports data from official public health journals and information at supply doctors for warning signs devices taking hold in countries outside of China. So yeah what they're doing. Okay wh- just in case. You missed that what they're doing now is they're scouring social media and they're seeing that gathering trends of people talking about the symptoms of the corona virus so an making differential because this is what we call big data literally mining millions and millions and millions of posts hundreds of millions of posts. They're able to differentiate between people talking about that from a third pipe point of view describing vice versus. Actually you know experiencing so they can then pinpoint us information is then passed to the authorities and this is happening in the US right. This is happening in the US. Not Not just in China that Guy John Branston. He's been delivering this information to. Us authorities saw the gathering the wheel social media stuff. And seeing if you're talking about the a virus symptoms in a way that might indicate you've got it fair enough. You might think well again if that's the intention but it's not gonNA stop there is it. We know governments. Do we know they're like they can get all this information. Everything that we post online we've known this for for a time but again it's just a reminder. The what you say can be heard. We'll be listened to and will be stored permanently and can be referenced back any point and they can paint any picture about you from that tickly. Using this big data you can start getting clumps with groups of people that maybe you've got no association or know Shat beliefs with saying casually. Maybe one percent similar things to to them so they can use it for anything. I could use it for anything You know without any justification as the information is out there so big data You know really is a big big threat. we're going to pause for a real quick break here and then. I'll be back to talk to you about the implications of this to you in the US and also the UK and a fascinating case. Study of government. Overreach in Australia. So yesterday we're talking about the corona virus of course and how governments are using this exploiting it to further infringe on your liberties. Now there's nothing really you can do about this apartment form yourself not really trying to say too much. Be Aware of C- check your cellphone check. You've been compromised. Leave stuff at home and all this kind of stuff But really my best advice to you. In terms of trying to fight the government is to get more money. That's my big core. Belief is not going to solve everything. Money isn't the answer to everything but the more money you have the better you can protect yourself the better you can inform yourself the more freedom you have to choose what you do away you go. You can free yourself from your job and you can free cell from taxation more money that you make s you'll be taxed incrementally but if you're making twice as much money right than you are right now. I'm pretty sure it would solve a to a certain extent your grievances about being personally tax. It's not going to completely eliminate it but if you could get make twice as much money still have them thieves some of course then. Obviously you're going to be more well off. So that's what I do. I've been doing it for twenty years online running my own Internet business and show you how to get started. Anybody can do this very simple. Get over to Michael. Chaney Dot Com is just my name dot com Michael Chaney Dot Com. Get The free book I give you there. I'll send you some followup training in video form to help you get started get over now to Michael Chaney Dot Com and start getting you'll side-hustle going on the Internet to bring in you'll on independent income. Okay so what about the US elsewhere then well? Us authorities actually used Uber Records. Believe it or not to try one of the suspected corona virus patients to Mexico. So they were able to track into that again. It makes you think. Are they doing this all the time anyway tracking where people are going? Probably you may have heard all the tax payer money was recently. Assigned TO CORONA virus. Measures was recently Big media headline about all the money. That's been put in place to sort of offset the the effects of current events and trying stop the spread in the US while yeah it's like it's busy. Trump administration putting request is like two point five billion dollars. We're trying to put into it. So mitigate against this but according to the intercept a piece on the intercept this could actually jeopardize the reauthorization or it could lead to the reauthorization of that act that was point place where the FBI snoop on. All the Americans can remember that the amendment that was done to the to the Patriot. Act that part of the Patriot. Act which meant the NSA could spy and everything that program was stopped in two thousand nine hundred eighteen but trump is actually trying to get it reinstated or these continuing. This is from a piece in the New York Times back in August. Twenty nine thousand fifteenth quote breaking a Long Silence about high profile. Nsa program that sifts records of Americans telephone calls and text messages in search of terrorist. The trump administration on Thursday acknowledged for the first time. The system has been indefinitely. Shutdown bar asked Congress to extend its legal basis anyway so that was last year that was August last year about say this piece on the the intercept. A bicycle claims that could the funding for for the corona virus could actually lead to this Going through let me just quote quote the trump administration's request with two point. Five billion to mitigate the virus pandemic is likely to become an unstoppable legislative vehicle as must pass legislation that congressional leaders of both parties could use to ram through a real threes ation of the FBI's call detail record wreck records program records program at such a move would sidestep the houses reform effort and instead plush through a clean reauthorization of the program so and then the only source to to claim is other people talking about that exact issues while the is due to be renewed. I think middle of March twenty twenty. I saw it Ju to sort of be defunct middle of March twenty twenty renewed unless unless this past three right. So it's going to be automatically kind of authorized unless anybody speaks out against it and that Laura's past against it so the clock is ticking on that and they fail now that that's going to go ahead because of this funding that's been given for the corona virus so it just shows you again. It's government overreach jumping on a crisis and we've not even spoken about the main thing which is the whole fear thing right. All operating through fear leading through fear is one of the main reasons. They seem to be playing this up. In my humble though accurate opinion feeding the media feeding that frenzy of all. Yeah this is the end of the world. This is the apocalypse it makes. People feel powerless. It makes them look to their lease. Or what what can you do please? Can you do something to save his please? Can you pass legislation? That will save us from this evil virus. Yes show we will. It's not that bad anyway. But don't tell them take even more of their taxes. Let's take more liberties it's the same stories. Just a different enemy is a different villain is not terrorists. This time. This time it's a virus. It happens happens all the time in the UK We're not separate to this eiter. This is according to a news and I quote using Geo tagged tweets researchers were able to predict within a few kilometers why the first corona virus in the UK would appear goes on. Say This is quoting one of the people that was responsible for the study when we saw the map for the first time. I can tell you that we were kind of shocked. So they're getting Geo tagging information from from tweets. They're pulling all that information of see where they've been sent tweets was sent from weather. Person was based on the Senate and then tracking it. I mean again just listening watching and listening to everything in China they even did live tracking actually tracked an infected person across the city of Nanjing Minute by minute and that were they were publishing details again. This is from vio. Voa news quote published details of the patients travels on social media to warn residents. There may have been infected if they crossed paths posting. Live updates on social media whether it's individuals going. He's now here is now watch out what you. But it's not just China it's not just. Usa is not just UK also in Australia. There were two people who fractured with Corona virus in Adelaide. And they've been moving around quite a lot in that city so the police used a system that basically all it needs is a cell phone. You don't even need to put anything on that cell phone number you don't need to call it. They don't need to download an APP. You just need a cell phone number. And it will track all their movements This was featured in ABC News in Australia. And I quote. This is the police. Commissioner quotes. Were doing that to assist and tracking down the movements of the people concerned so we can do our best to identify. People who might have been exposed fair enough goes want to say is used quite frequently for criminal investigations. And you want to say it's from the use of the phone not the physical device and it's not affected by whether the device had its location services switched on or off thing about switching location services off in this particular case. Does it doesn't matter the only way that you can be sure that nobody's listening with your farm afraid to adopt that. The the Will Smith any enemy of the state kind of mentality from the movie and just don't have any technology but again it's one of those examples of Meta data rearing. Its UGLY HEAD. So actual metadata is is not the detail of the cool. It's not it's not. The transcript is not the words. It's not the content is just the timestamps duration the geographical location of the identity of. Who's making those calls now in Australia? They've got laws which means the telecom companies there have to keep that information for two years and that includes every time person has used the phone text or call in where the call took place how long it was and it's all recorded whenever they paying the phone tower connected to a phone tower absolutely crazy. Abc News went onto say. Kinda finish their pace like that. Information can be made available to government departments police and security agencies. So the next time you think. Oh it's all happening in China and it's just Cha-. This is happening everywhere. This is happening. Everywhere is coming out now is made more public crises. Inverted like this like corona virus when they public come out and talk about it or it gets made aware because we'll see more and more citizens affected by it but again it just makes you think how much of this is going on all the time anyway and are they ever going to roll this back afterwards when they now have so much further access June. I mean they prised. Open the door of Privacy. So far are they ever. GonNa close out the Hell. GonNa Close again the hell. Well that is it for today's episode. Stay safe drink some hand sanitizer and turn off your phone. Put it in the microwave and set it on fire for five minutes and walk away without any technology to make sure you're not being traced. I'll see on the next episode. You've been listening to the Michael. Chaney show create your own wealth and protected against taxation turmoil and tyranny over at Michael Jamie Dot Com through.
45 - David E. Talbert (Jingle Jangle): A Stuck-At-Home Special
"From kurt co media Welcome to another special episode of hollywood unscripted stuck at home. I'm jenny curtis and before we jump in with our guest. I want to introduce my amazing guest. Co host nick walker. Thank you for joining us. Nick nick is currently leading the broadcast of ain't too proud after three years in hamilton. Both on broadway and in touring companies and. Forgive me. But i have to ask. Pardon me are you aaron. Burr sir depends. Who's asking so. There's this amazing thing that happens with the show. Where you know after you do a show on broadway in theorism. Sure anybody's in theaters done you. Go inside at the stage door. There's always one kid who is to ask and it makes me so happy. I mean it's just the best shell and the best role. Lynn jokes able to go on his tombstone. Honestly i wouldn't have a problem with that. I am so honored to be a part of that legacy and to have started one of the companies and done this show. It's been really really awesome. Ride also you co host your own podcasts. Chaos twins and little justice. What are those. Chaos twins is my arts and activism podcasts. I was doing instagram wives. December twenty twenty. When know so many things will pop off talking about things and then my friend. Sasha from hamilton. Join me and then probably world was like. Hey we see you're doing this. You just want to do this on our channel. Yeah sure so. That became a thing. And then little justice which you will be on very soon and i'm so excited about that is our movie review. Podcast me and my best friend. Alex just being bums and talking about movies and try to pretend like we know things. We don't you know i also noticed. So you are a playwright yourself. What is the bloody boston trilogy. They're the series of plays that i had in development. I'd actually say since. I graduated college when i was a kid. I was obsessed with like mark twain. And michael crichton. Even though i did not understand one of his books in third grade but writing was just something that i i really just loved loved telling my own stories and especially speaking quite honestly as a young black kid growing up in boston. There wasn't a lot of opportunities for me to see myself on stage on screen. Not just a black person but lack nerd black comic book reader. You know all these things that now we're inundated with so it came out of that in the bloody boston trilogy was three very different. Plays one musical one play with music and one play. That are all interconnected in the same boston university. But really are more about me. Reconciling with my childhood growing up as a black in boston did not directly about that. They all kind of to john. So i'd say the first play chronologically in the trilogy is called uncle. Jackie and it's kind of this thriller about police brutality. If you can imagine that it's people who shouldn't be in a room together stuck in a room together and shake the room up story there. Is this ends tonight. Which is kind of a western. And there's whiskey land. Which is boston. The last twenty four hours of existence. So you're partying with a bunch of crazy drunk. Bostonians on this wild night. It was the kind of thing that like. i've finished at least the first drafts of all three of these. I dislike put them down and was like the lord. I'm not touching boston again. When i know for anybody who writes you put yourself out there and you know that ernest. Hemingway saying you bleed on the page. There are great tools for me to learn how to write. I went to school as shakespeare. Major eater major. And i never took any writing classes at just learned by reading scripts and watching people that i liked. I look back at those three played in like. Yeah that's kind of how i cut my teeth and now i'm writing screenplays running pilots three. Were the ones that really taught me how to write for myself. Said before we jump in with our guest. What do our listeners need to know about you as an artist. Who's talk about like really easy questions. Terribly terribly complex. I think a lot of my friends would describe me as kind of a han solo type. I loved pretend that i'm edgy. And pushing boundaries. A really on the teddy bear so my art tends to be very uncomfortable and very intense. But i'm writing it. Because that's the work that i had to get through to get to a place of openness and vulnerability so i think there's one way to find my art. It would be saying you gotta go through the dark before he gets the light. That's probably the kind of theme with everything i've ever written and i'd say that about my performance to you know every character that i've played on stage. I love contradiction. And i love complexity. I love questions. That are left unanswered. So i would hope that. I've tried to especially with burr. I've always tried to present the case of a person who may be you. Don't like but you at least understand. Okay so i'm really excited to introduce today's guests. We are starting the christmas season very strong with playwright screenwriter director producer. David e talbert. Whose work we've seen in for sunday. Almost christmas el camino christmas baggage claim and this spectacular. Neukoelln jingle jangle christmas journey which is now a net flicks. David thank you so much for joining us. I'm jenny and today co hosting his neck is saying is he going to sing his you. Listen i'm just here to bask in your greatness. i mean. I won't stop anyone from singing match. I just want to start by saying. I love jingle jangle we were just talking about it. Both of us have watched it multiple times. What a joy. I try to pay attention. When i'm watching a movie or reading a new script. I try to pay attention to the first words that you write the scripts or the movie because often the first line of a movie the first scene of a movie tell you much about like. I'm a huge nerd. By the way but often a good writer can tell you exactly what your movie is. Just in the first three or four lines of dialogue and the first words spoken in your movie as well and it's crazy because that joy of just like imagination and creation carries you throughout the entire film that is no easy feat to sustain manso. Congratulations ernie so much. You say the film has been twenty years in the making so you started writing it as a theater. Piece back in the nineties is that correct. Dudas torn theater for about ten. Fifteen years touring off broadway non. You used theater across the country. I call it soul eater urban circuit all that. So i wanna do something on broadway. Every time wins the beacon. We won't broadway. We was seventy eight broadway. Go over this. So i wanted to do a as a broadway musical. But i couldn't get song. Ride known was really feel in me doing a broadway musical like that. You're laid and this all lane. And then when my son was born. And i started seeing the world through his eyes. I started showing him. My favorite sales gidigidi bang bang willie walker and all those and he was that into like. I was into them because on his walls. Miles morales in black panther. So he's looking at these lily white mubarak so sitting up there. Saying oh kirk white man so i realized that he wanted to seize them on screen and look and that's what i said. Okay it's time to do this and my wife said maybe let's do this film instead of a play and that's what it also. So what does he think of it. Oh my domain kreil here when he sees people flying that look like and when he sees just wondering this magic can across the is liberal by says allies to sixty. That's my son's name allies and my great grandmother who is most magical. She was still is in my life. Her dresses to sixty kentucky avenue. So it's full circle moment for me connecting the magic of these two. This baby boy am my great grandmother and so he sees it on his outside dan. That's my name alexis writing and it'll be there for all eternity or world. Indisputable that reverberates. Not with your son but with all of us who grew up without these kind of movies for us from the opening number we are seeing a world that we have never been allowed to express on screen where it's not about our black and white gays. It's just black joy. it's just black holiday joy. I literally sat there. And i have the text with my wife and i was like yo if this come out when i was a kid like became over. Has that kind of washed over yet. That you've done something here man. It was intentional Representation but like look is mentioned really walker. Jean bang bang. Mary poppins when i was little. Nobody sent. let's sit down and watch widen. We said let's watch a movie happens to have this be like us anybody's wandering by magic in height might next and so yes. It was intentional. Bermuda have people that vote by my son. But i wanted to lead with our itching ads in what connects us all in that. We all have seen this cable of wonder and we can make ourselves to the universal languages saw and so we can all celebrate all cultures around the world. I talked with people. Brazil and ireland france and italy and south africa and ghana in atlanta troy. And everybody is connected with a heart in the g. managed and the fact that we're inviting people to the table to play with his wonder that we haven't seen before that just makes that much more on it's so relatable on every level but you're fostering not only a sense of imagination but it's imagination through science and math and all of these exciting things that like it's okay to be smart and we love that and celebrate that and i i cried a lot during the maybe we move bar that you're two of them and that was a beautiful mind when he was riding up in the east saw all that viggers said nobody's dudes must like my brother and that inspired idea of stem. I wanted to show that we're innovators. In as laterals and mathematicians and scientists we can't live formulas in sky possible the saying the revenue sensational. This conference system do so it was exciting. The songs you were saying that you were having a hard time crafting but these songs are gorgeous and mean intrude musical theater form. I think one of my issues always with a lot of musical theater is when you put a song in there because it's time for the saw nothing wrong with that because the form starts in vaudeville and it's presentational now. It's time for this song rather than songs that actually move plot ford when veronica start seeing in his very first song. I knew you had something because it came from a place it was. This thing has arrived now. Life will be better in every song. Did that so one of the questions. I had was in crafting. These songs with these amazing writers including john. Legend was there a lot of discussion. About how the songs get you from. Point a. to point b. Did you kind of just send them off and let them go like. What was that discussion. A lot of plays were musical theater and so the songs are an extension of the dialogue extension. The moment i'm not a fan of people bring out in talking to me. Isn't somebody's sitting on this out of fan of oh now. He's you know that's more traditional by disney was able to do so well with frozen and then what we could was able to do is a different form of music. Doesn't have to start and singing dialogue with older. I wanted to stay in there. In that vein. I wanted to celebrate what was soul and celebrational about our music music supervisor. Jillian michaels intiatives villard sailors. Today trees nuttiest issue but he wrote all bruno. Mars sauce bruno. So i knew he had this big international sensibilities everyone saying law or corners of the planet along bruno mars songs and then john legend is the same fame. They're just great songs that happen to have a soul folk celebrational bottom to them. But they're just great song. So i said we could bring these two together inaccurate. Find someone that would give an orchestral bottom too. Because i love orchestral bottoms of the gray john. Deb brought him in and so even in snow all seen when they're dancing. You have to judicial african basic dave from ghana more restriction on that day. And so then. You got the best of both worlds in his own. Did they work together on the songs or did they divvy them up except for me. Were john lewis over it. But i came to john and you all from theater that i said i need eleven o'clock hour song and i need something to this up and slap in the face reminding us oh snap. Oh wait a second now. I flew from london to coca wind. John is house and sat down again. He came up with make it work and then back to london. And i say this heightened number caution and let's make it like it's a soul spiritual side the ancestors crying from the ground and then a choreographer rashly wall and he was doing this wonderful traditional dance townsquare and i said that's wonderful by needed to go online and look at howard university. Homecoming gig is a step shows. You look at the a mega and cap out the size and the way that they do this traditional stamping dance. Which comes maverick. Inc bad in the town. Square and then just soared. So that's kind of the approach to it all once again. I promise. I will stop singing your praises twenty two i know but look you've got to characters lee that song jessica veronica's right. I think even there you're breaking the form because eleven o'clock number that is your one character. Generally that is your alphabet hamilton. Hurricane is kind of his eleven o'clock number really that is the one person having the moment in the fourth act where they're like something needs to change something needs to happen yours is the community. Your eleven o'clock number is this group coming together to make something happen. Anita us in you saying through the chaos and all around you folks let you have. Is you have to go ranjit. Singh said and i said you calm broin of this storm here and then it just news one. This get up. And you're like okay. Stop barrels foresaw that song. They were phenomenal. Oh my god. Nick knows so much more than i do in the technique. I just sit there with my mouth open. Because i just love what's happening. I love musicals. They would have no idea what was technical or not but it did exactly that. We're like you were kind of winding down into this. Calmer area and suddenly your mouth is on the floor. And we're all away. Even that's amazing when something can be treated for both its technical aspects and just how it makes you feel. That's when you know you got something jurassic park which is my favorite time. A technically brilliant movie also movie. That has a strong emotional core right. You can look at it from both zanga. I think that's what's done here can you. I'm robert ross. Host of cars. That matter you might be wondering what makes a car matter and i have a feeling already know the answer. Some cars have changed history. Some you can hear a mile away. Some have lines that make your heart skip a beat if a car is ever made you look twice. I think you know the ones that matter us. I speak with designers collectors. Market experts about the passions. That drivers and the passions. We drive cars that matter wherever you get your podcasts. So you started to talk about the cast a little bit you have a phenomenal cast of both theatre. Actors film actors. All of these amazingly talented people love to talk about the casting process. How you found everyone on the wall is liz rashad. his grandmother. We hadn't even reached out. We hadn't talked anything but my wife came in was the producer and she put a vision visit. This is the grandmother. Of course lisera shot. I mean i've seen her on broadway. And i tell us all the time raising sons puffy. Did she came in at the very end of that when they were supposed to leave and she came back into this pot is one clan and she looked around that plays in power. That came out of that. What would lead gave a standing ovation. So i wanted to have for this sin on. That is an his core stage. The ethical i wanted to have people that are the top little on stage about a nigga. Liz rashad queen. And ms johnson lady placed johnson's the british stage actress. And of course you bottom enforce it onstage. So for me is she was up there. Earth within drawn jangle. It is his film. So i have been known for is for about almost twenty years. We've been trying to figure out what to do. And when this came around on new been trained vocally in fluent in new york to sit with him at his favorite biggest possibly eating on what the hell the water i keep trying to order wings. I could wages at the animal wings. Of course is the only sliders a davis being. What do we do. He did he in order in the middle of ordering. He stopped and he says you want me to be in your book. And i told him that i needed him to be in my home because i needed someone that would ground this character so it wouldn't be a character. He would bring humanity because it's very delegate could easily be a cartoon character. But i need someone who give it humanity until i need this. Oh not only that. I would respect in front of the camera. But i needed a brother behind the camera. Because i knew this big undertaking. Something i hadn't done visual effects in big musicals period pieces in costumes. I hadn't done this before. And i needed number one on the call she to be somebody that had my back and brother had my back every step of the way he would come in every morning reshot in london. Good morning go off. And so he was brilliant. Brilliant brilliant man but more importantly he was a brother on that set and gave me the latitude direct him and he gave me the freedom to tweak massage and adjust and he went with it he bought into any crushed that we continue to build out the cast but these gordon characters round madeleine males who plays journey. This is her first film and she was on broadway. she's frigging phenomenal. Was film easy for her. Was it a challenge grownup. Bill girls by i was directing her. Look this is but you do know about nuance and bat. Story and beason objectives tax. Like i would talk to boris. And then she would stare image. I said and we had a relationship that was very in tune with each other because the leading in the film. She had to be grounded to the worst thing you can ever do. The human being is to make him endure a child actor through two hours. Blow your brains out you know you. Forgive him because they are child. I wanted people to not be taken out of the movie. Watching a child fumbled through it. I mean same way. Macaulay culkin you loved. And shirley temple you love and judy garland. You loved in stephanie mills. When she was on. Broadway playing dorothy in the whizz. These people inhabited a role. And so that's what she did. She stole the roles stolen heart. Forget about it. Buy when you're singing onstage. The muscles that you use are very very different when a cameras this close ups your face and stuff that you can do on stage but it stuff that might only read your scene partner own. You gotta go. That's what i thought was just like. Oh yeah you're done your career that's it you put right here. And she's like yep enforce on the of that when he saw him he is only one. I found it sung tucson's lives over and over. His first almost live make up with his daughter was live. We were supposed to go to the prerecord in a musical or saying record and we were supposed to go to pre dp remy. I said i'm not gonna cut before. He sings he says does he know that we're recording like no. But he's forced me to go he'll keep as so journey ran out of the workshop and pinot player that core and four turned around he started singing over and over and what you see in. The film is his take as his first day. It was all live with no prerecord. He saying all that lives didn't miss a beat or anything. Did it throw him afterwards. Afterwards when i yell cut there was about ten seconds of silence. Nobody said anything. And i just whispered cut. Everyone gave him an old bachchan for about a minute and it was one of the most amazing things i had seen. Does that onset of avail but everyone there knew that we had experienced some fish magical otherworldly. There have been so many actress who have done these movie musicals at this point but it is such a stark difference when you see somebody who truly knows how to act song acid. You treat it like shakespeare. You treat it like heightened texts and you dig in there and say what song about. What is my character feeling. What do they want in you achieve. And so many moments that he had and the other person. I gotta give it up to is key michael. So huge fan of his. I saw him live when he did hamlet at the public. I think you guys use lizzy caplan for him. That's my voice proud awo. She is the gold standard. Because i was like okay. So if you've got this capping working with let's see what kind of song. That song is hard. Gordon change the key races. We're gonna lower the key. Because he s a harvey weaned lowering the incitement of song. He said well he wants. Its below it. I said well let him know. I have full confidence. That he'll be those notes so we came in there and he he wore that saw. Yes he did. I always love the villain. And i love that arc. Man was wonderful in that. And i got that moment from the blues brothers for james brown said we gotta go get that seat in blue our our a brown and has seen and they're just so beaten up things. I wanna mix that with a bonus of love rouge in what they were able to do. Those colors and make it special. How much of the film was discovery onset. That surprised. how much had you pictured and it turned out exactly how you wanted discovery. I think all the production desire and costume designer for or control. We all became kids on set because this was our chance to play. We're in london. we wanna stage. We were given all the resources in this. Okay so now in your perfect world is you had a chance to do anything he wanted to. What would you do. It was grown men and women that were kids again on set. And you see all reduction design and everything that goes into. It looks that way. My wife food producer of the film. Sex insert thing she said to the qassams item. Michael wilkinson at the beginning. Yeah these beautiful victorian patterns. He said well. This eighteen hundreds in the black blazer hundred that means they either defected from us or their first or second generation from africa so we need to mix african patterns with victorian so michael flew to ghana nigeria and got pat him. So the vibrancy you see is the torian mixed with authentic african patterns and creates africa. Torian and it just awesome scream at dies. Yeah it's unbelievably beautiful and the detail is mind blowing. I mean down to the three prongs on journeys. Bow tie that you would never see the buttons and meddle in her hair. Jury was a scripted. Says she's original for shore and in the new vein nor hair trying to figure out what that was and they might sixteen together that thing we saw like okay forget her by in the nets or care with three us and everything white came with We go was the afro victorian. Kind of your entree into the steam punk of at all or did that. Just come naturally. Because of the fact that you're inventors ugo was really started to pique my interest in there. And when i was watching that i'm like wow this wonderful so that really was film that starting to pull me into this whole scene. Hauge at all which i think is fascinating. We've never seen again. It's just one of those things that i'm trying not to get too personal here but you have to understand growing up when you like those things and everyone's telling you you're not supposed to like those things because those things aren't for you you sit there and you question yourself and you question your worth and you question will be things then to years later you get a movie like this and it just a firms in you that you actually were exactly where you're supposed to be. I am so happy that i'm alive in an age where these kinds of messages are being sent out to our kids. There's one thing that i have to ask you about at the end of journey's song you have her in front of the clock tower. Have her with her arms. Spread now again. I'm a huge nerd. And i'm probably looking to deepen to this. But i also would not be surprised for trivia man no no so for trivia man. Leonardo da vinci right was his drawing the ideal man in. It's a man in a circle with a square. it's literally designed. You have on that cogs behind her maybe subliminal. Maybe it's just my mind. Look into what i love about. It was like you literally took the trivia man pos and put it in the body of a black girl for me. When i see films like let it go and i loved that again. I'm the biggest black widens man. I just love all the wonder. And i loved and with kids when alphabet went up the end for like forget about it. Forget about it but we've never seen us when she was on the inside of that shop the whole song and when we got there i said ashley this is wonderful. But it's not grand is frozen enough. These that will animation day. You can go anywhere and may not working we go. That would be interesting and says there's no way around we go outside. I'm like i'm going there on the rooftop and the manas momma said wait a second. You ain't put my daughter of the central fed's bertha came over there and said well. We could do that as you like. No we can't do that. James mustard then. Let me figure out you can be say. And then i would try to sell it to you. Three other on harnesses. Jane james be in no way she can fall and she said do that. Elias go up in there. And i said i let allies is govan. There began those harnesses on that story. He could fall on. It'll be conic. And she said she would give you the side by side and we do that. Choreography rooftop thirty minutes before she did. She was literally learning choreography as they were moving cameras outside and everything. I said we need a frozen moment. We need an iconic moment where she is on top of the world and maybe it's the real may need center mind is whatever but we need to show so that when she spins around their own anterior positive. Okay stop stock. How did the choreography work for the rest of it. Did you have a lot of her time. How did it all figured out. Because it's very intricate. Jamie griffin ashley. Wallen did the ratio. He did the core for that. And i love that court venus. Nsm and so hired him and jenny griffin is gonna the secret sauce. She's a little talion woman who saved in hipaa choreography for rs stays and so they're kind of combined to give it some swag too you don't give it his classical movement a give it something a little bit extra in ashley would record all the choreography on his side foam and he would cut it together and so in rehearsals eli dave. This is what i'm thinking would be great angles great cuts and all that stuff. So i use a lot of what he cut together when rimi cinematography says what do you think i would just go. This is what i call. I wanted to be. You know so. A lot of that is asked. Ricky martin's character is an animated doll. Has choreography work. When you're working with animation said it was just stick with tennis ball for i lines and everything and for camera movement and then we got back. Rookie came in and a suit with all those started dancing and that would be animated to him even with the singing back to that for a second. The thing about prerecord is that sometimes. It hinders more than it helps right because you have to lock in your performance in the studio whatever you sang on that. That's what you're doing. You were able to maintain such a naturalism to everybody's performance with that being ignorant to certain things helps you lock. I didn't know the rules. Therefore i could break the rules years. Impose a lot this end. But i didn't know you supposed to lock it in so i'm like well i didn't know you lock in that gave you what it is that we have to animate to ricky martin like okay will come in today as though i've got away with a lot because i just didn't know any better that's where it could be organic and feel more natural in that stage. It really works men. It was one of the things that i thought was just really vibrant about the movie was you can tell when people are out there. Committed to these choices that they made three four months ago as opposed to what they're feeling in the moment cabin though was the first homes supposedly the song called. Everything's changing in a week before we were gonna shoot. I call bill us sale. I think we need to do something. This song is not quite that you won't be james days now j. The whole saw and he says the whole song. yeah. We're flying near the bar to london and we go to air studio and this day came in a week before we started. How wow all new also when you say. They only jones three days before and not only one day man. Ob before so it was a working progress. And i was always fine tuning these things trying to figure out so a lot of these things right before we shot. Moslem reported a week before we started. It's how we make the cake and ogden. This this way know. How long was the shoot seventy days have reshoot a lot of fewer kind of figuring out as he went along he did know reshoots for the film. We were very forcing by the crow. There was unbelievable by the shoe was supposed to be like fifty days in. They are kept adding stuff into it like a win. Tunnel wasn't even in the script. But i got there. And i'm like we've been jones of here. You need some action adventure. Some goonies need some steven spielberg stumping. Here we need. This added five days shoot and became winds. Also a moment of your time. A new podcast from kirk commedia currently twenty one years old and today like magic defended from her fingertips down to the author of yourself. Because the world needs you and do that asked about me was ready to spit on my drink fingers. Were facing feel like your purpose in. Your worth is really being stopped me from playing the piano. She buys walkie-talkies wanders to whom she should give the second day dolls. love humans. We never did. We never will. We just find one rock. Climbing is that you can only focus on what's right behind and so our american life begins. We may need to stay apart but let's create together available on all podcast platforms. Submit your piece that crooked dot com slash a moment of your time from the beginning idea back when it was a play to now. How much did the story change or what was initially. When it was a piece of theater it was always deronic as in journey and miss johnston in guston. And buddy three thousand. Those were the ones but then as a film us after evolve even more. But i never knew the second act third act was in. I only had the i act and it was solid could only be very vegetables but i could never bigger out where these people would go. What would happen on that. I needed to own to really allow me to open up my mind to build on everything. We do to workshops in london with british actors to really work shopping. Any awful lot. Then consuls workshops and now you are talking about taking it to stage always going in stage probably dates just the we get up in their. Listen i vote yes. We are gearing up now for the of rennell return see where we launch. But it's absolutely going to the stay in. It'll be there forever in every man. Let me ask you this because you've gone on this writers during the so many writers get to have where your idea in one medium. You're stuck on it. You blew it up into another medium now. Things are coming together in the transfer back to stage now that you do have an understanding of where the second act leads. How these characters get to the end of their journey. What do you think. Obviously you're in process you're doing your thing but do you think might have to be changed. What do you think might have to be tweaked to get it back to stage. I think like when they did the lion king. When i saw that thing on bravo i'm like what in the world is julie taymor. What was you smoking when she table. Because it was so next level. So i think the sage lenses. So i mean magic flying through the audience and the buddy three thousand flying and screams with writing in the sky. And you imagine a big data magic man g on sage and make it work on stage. You blow the roof associated with those songs. Data lends to abuse. It truly is going to be incr- 'cause you know one of the greatest and this kind of in some ways reminds me of jingle jangle but one of the greatest missed opportunities was not finding input. Idyllwild onstage. I was masterful. Yeah it's already there ahead of his time in outcast. Entree and boy. brian barber. Who director of the cemetery in this. And that i still know people can wrap their minds around what he was but it was a stage production that and again just with an infectious beat. I mean even in the broadway musicals we have right now. Something that can go from literally new orleans. Jazz select beats. We don't have that. We also have not had a story that can hold all of that in context. Yours is going to be that story man. I'm by right now. A top to go. I'll take it right now about that. We i do wanna talk about. You accidentally kind of fell into being the christmas movie guy. 'cause you never intended it but all of your movies seem to gravitate toward the holidays. How did that happen. All christmas was caught. A myers thanksgiving best script that i wrote in the universalist. We love this group who we may hit princeton. So i'm like okay cool. So he changed the almost christmas. And then ted melfi wrote el camino asked me to directive on many changed el camino christmas and then this one was called. The invention of veronica's general and there was a song and there not great and called jingle jangle everybody was like. I like that title better. So we that and then we shot it. Netflix say would change jingle jangle on christmas black. Santa but holidays are a great time to tell stories. Also because i heard you in an interview talking about how it was a trilogy of christmas films. But i do want to point out. Baggage claim takes place during thanks. Those deep cuts holidays. I remember growing up. Welcome from church. My whole family pass breaches. I mean we welcome from church in dc and it was a holidays and at the bus stop. There was raggedy kind of transistor radio. They were pumping is the lowest wonderful time of the year giant mass virgin and it was a homeless lady that was sitting in. They're trying to stay warm. And i remember this is just looking at her but opted came to me is that you're playing is the most wonderful time of year and here is a woman who's homeless. Try to stay warm and so that idea of for most people holidays. They play all his having music at us. Want some dog throw a shoe because it's not as happy as this music is because you're either missing a family members that are there anymore or relationships and you get time of year. You really get a chance to think about things. And those things aren't always great so holidays romy that backdrop is pushing past the pain and trying to get you the joy in whatever. The journey is just seeing when you put the backdrop of holidays there. It just hines it when drama. Because his low banker leaves and tells him he's got to get this invention and he's sitting there. You hear people out singing cheerful songs. Talking about merry christmas and his world is crumbling. Thought that that contrast is always interesting so me and my wife are. Christmas isn't holidays are usually spent like just sitting in can chinese food and watching movies. Jewish man no but we both have a lot of jewish friends. That's only the has exactly right just true. How the holidays. Just up the stakes. Everything has so much more emotional weight on this day when you are supposed to be joyful but there's always something that's missing or that's just holding you back. Here's my question to you though kind of on this topic one of the things that's clear to me. Is that like you just explain. This came from allies. Your son's name. You have remembered. The holidays is a personal story to you with writers. I think so often are always looking for these stories outside of ourselves. Can you speak a little bit too power. You found writing not what she know but who you are. I am drugs jangle you know anyone who's been in business for some period time. You have his ideas. He starts strains these inventions and you believe their work than over time. Goliath fifty nine of you. Or you start doubting yourself and people saw down. Union sale just doesn't work and so for me. The robot buddy three thousand was up and drug is addict or thirty. Years always worked but the script has been in the attic. My hard drive for twenty two years and so when my son was born yes in theory. I'm like ahead of his dream. But i couldn't get to work when my son was born and i looked at him. It gave me the courage again as i saw life through the eyes of the job. You know the imagination. Everything was possible. And i started to find the courage to him and when i showed him the buddy three thousand first drawing up as it when he lies he says oh daddy i love it. What can robot do. I said you know you can walk and you can talk. He says as good as it can fly. And i had thought about going and i said hey could fly smile. And he looked at me. Said daddy cannot slow and looking at my son asked me again. He fly and to be thought about that either. I looked at him. I said y- you can fly to any just lit up and that is a series of what this film is. Every parent wants or every person wants to believe that they can be wonderful in magical and all that and now system little black boys low backers people of color all around the world can see. Oh a magical to and as everything. My son was like journey was to gerard and here. We are now looking back again. I'm so happy free. Math This is going to be kind of flip back to the beginning. But i did want to talk about mrs. johnston backup dancers because one of my favorite things in the movie. What sparked that idea lawrence. Who wrote this song. He wrote a couple of crews are having been asked her in make them more cheriton background so we in london and he killed their live sitting in the dark all day by yourself. I was falling out on bail. And now the johnson bill. Now the personnel. We gotta have these baghran. Dancing in there wasn't even the strip and bill. Like what are you talking about. You got to be because he build lawrence in the middle one of those dances. That's the glass kidding bill. You got to be there and two of the act workshop british accent singers. Who i've met when i would see dreamgirls in london. They were to a name. I said you got to be in there. And growing up of justice. We called them all. The time is growing up. Wrong men dancing. A choreography was everything. Genetic mutation tops. The jackson by new edition and we don't get a chance to see wrong. Men dressed to the nine. Let you have when. I told abc news. Doing these nasa said no. Go go look at the temptations. That's what i what this looks like. They just all show was jamie. Forget about seattle. Guys you before shutdown. Were you able to come see anti proud. Get linda's been my sister. And i go get her into the broadway. She was my role. My plays medicine. I think john and my were ardo into proud. John lynch jackson. So i was opposed to see here in la. Before it went to broadway. And then i saw his scouting. I was trying to catch came into the artist or madness. I've never seen it. All i've heard is everything that's my show. Now i play otis and that showed him. I'm not even joking. When this is all the got tickets on there my roll like it's basically a three hour monologue dance. I can't dance for crack. And i had to learn for this. You know we just in the studio yesterday. Getting ready for the christmas tree lighting feeling of being a grown black name with four other dunes. Just hit it is magnetic. I feel so blessed to have these brothers like and they're all people but i came up with got through college my friends we will agree the dramatic. Somebody was saying. I'm gonna go outside in the rain in the rain and we were doing but this idea of choreography wonderful. Everyone loves does. Everyone loves those. Its final question my favorite question to ask what does it mean to you to have a life in. Storytelling is all i know. I grew storefront hole in his church in washington. Dc my great grandmother pastor anime woods. Who's my heart but as a young kid. I watched her stories. Were words word of god. I watched alcoholics come in addicts. Come in one way and leave out another way. I watched words types people move. People will change people's lives in some ways through stories through words. Mom nonreligious at all. But i do understand the power of words words of powerful with right intention behind them and they can touch move people in ways because i experienced core african culture grilled as the former storytelling sitting down fireside or group of people. You tell a story. And i think just the tradition of who we are and i didn't know that this is who i was gonna be but it's in my dna and who. I am tracy morgan. We did for sunday. He told me what his idea of success was in need. Said dave is waking up in the morning and having something to look forward to the simplest thing. So when i wake up in morning i look forward to telling stories and if i'm renumerated i am blessed though and given everything i need to have because i honor what this gift is. This intention is in what we're putting out to the world jingle jangle. A christmas journey is on netflix. Now i cannot encourage everyone enough to drop what you're doing and go watch it. David talbert it has been an absolute joy talking about this. I love the movie. I'm a big fan of yours. I will follow you wherever you go from here. Seriously it's been such a pleasure talking to you. Have done such great work before this but this is such a holiday gift. Such a gift to all spanking. Thank you appreciate love nick. This has been great and come back and co host again. Thank you guys own. Hollywood unscripted was created by kurt. Come media this special episode of the stuck at home series was hosted and produced by me. Jenny curtis with guest. David talbert guest co host. Nick walker edited by j whiting executive producer of hollywood unscripted. Stuart halperin the hollywood unscripted theme. Song is by celeste. Eric dick sure to subscribe so you don't miss any special episodes of hollywood unscripted stuck at home. Stay safe and healthy. And thanks for listening creek. How media Media for your mind.
S2 E43: Robin Fraser's Pablo-to-Pep Rating
"The actual jason yes the sheriff's we'll give you the walls became spring. I knew and then claw your face off rast talking with questions from aw thank you <music>. Hello rapids rapid's fans. My name is matt pollard and you are listening to holding the high line with rabbi and read it is the evening of tuesday august twenty seventh events twenty nine robin frazier has finished his first training session and announcement press conference as the new head coach of the colorado rapids lane lane united are u._s. Open cup champions and mark more importantly as one of the co chairs of the h. l. patriotic budgeting committee. I i would like to amend our previous motion to spend all that money on beer and have that goes towards a joint bid between you and me to become the new owners of bolton wanderers wanderers football club. Oh i already put my eight dollars down for berry so i think that i get a fifty percent controlling interest to that former football club. That's now been completely. He dropped out of the league. After i think it was one hundred fifteen years hundred and thirty four years oh man it's depressing day in soccer and then i have to add to that's the sad news that colin clarke passed away today thirty thirty five years old former colorado rapid heart attack. Isn't that what they were saying died of a heart attack. He also played for colorado rush. She was a youth development player for rush and i watched him at an open cup game tonight. Being the open cup final <hes> <unk> an open cup game a qualifier between rush and <hes> harpo is back in two thousand fifteen so <hes> and the harpist fans were really getting getting on calling our <hes> and he was he was dug it up to because he was pissed off and it was an it was an enjoyable thing he was clearly a class player player back then you know still at the age of thirty one much props to a guy who's a former m._l._s. perot still banging down in the in the colorado premier league so oh you know it was it was all around weird day in soccer. We had a new coach for the rapids. <hes> departing dearly departed player for the rapids and two major english professional clubs basically dissolve all in one day so if berries going away if you're buying berry mark are you allowed to not have any ownership stake in bolton like are we like is the red is the rabbi and read darby going to take over that rivalry to where you resurrect burry and then i resurrect bolton wanderers like we play in the fifth division next year. You're already over thinking this way too much. I mean i think it's an interesting question. <hes> the better interesting question to to take it serious. You were trying to flip but to take it seriously. <hes> there are two big questions and <hes> that come out of this which we are not going to explore because we are not an english premier league financing podcast question one is if a historic club can get financially put in administration which is what the british people call bankruptcy <hes> is something deeply wrong with english soccer that it needs to be fixed and the second question that goes off this is based based on our witty banter about buying club which is very funny but like isn't is fan ownership or local ownership a by a consortium of fans possibly unnecessary a function moving forward in professional soccer. <hes> there are at at least two or three clubs in the u._s. That have done there are two or three clubs in england that have done. It and i don't know if you know this man. You probably do everything <hes> in germany. It's a requirement. Fifty plus wouldn't rule. There's a great <hes> copa ninety video about this folks that goes on and a very layman's approaches search copa ninety and then probably bundesliga ownership or probably be the first thing that comes up now to some degree. I mean the challenge of this. Is that number going into the weeds but this is fun banter <hes> <unk>. The challenge of this is that a lot of people know that the green bay packers are also a team that are technically publicly owned and yet if you're a packers fan you realistically have twenty shares of packers stock which you get a certificate for the new mounts on your wall in you get zero back from it like you can't do anything with that. It doesn't appreciate <hes> you know. It's just basically you know. Pardon the expression. It's a scam. It's just a total rip off. They don't seem to have any like actual voting interest whereas by contrast <hes> a._f._c. wimbledon and in a club that i very much like which is called a polecat damone in jerusalem give the fans and annual voting meeting where they have to do things like approved approved the slate of executive board committee members they have to approve the hiring of the executive director <hes> and they get to have a conversation about whether the you now manager is being successful or not when his contract comes up <hes> not necessarily they don't necessarily get to choose but if they all vote down to the executive board disguises a joke then they fire the manager. I mean like if you're my point is if you're gonna make <hes> fan ownership thing you oughta make it a real thing. You ought to actually give the fans an actual stake in the matter but anyway now. I guess the thing that responded with that markelle. There was a really good article article. I don't remember where it's from so i apologize but i've plugged it on a bunch of on all my social media pretty much was an article that came out maybe two three years ago and it basically basically said that you're getting in the same way that there's economic stratification within all of these major democracies including the united states where there's like fifty fifty people who own more wealth than the bottom thirty percent and the top one percent owns more than the bottom fifty percent basically as the primarily teams continue to get got more and more money basically like league one and league two teams are like the millennium falcon sputtering and just trying to you know make that kessel run on barely barely enough gas and it's just an absolute hunk of junk and so you know where i think you have you know the pro rail for u._s._a. Crowd that i think is valid and saying that you know u._s. The u._s. soccer institute pro row next season and you immediately won't have a total collapse of the pyramid but you will. I think have collapse of clubs and we've seen seen this in other places in europe. We've seen this on other continents where a club goes into administration or declared bankruptcy or ceases to exist and then you know a phoenix club comes out of that i have preferred united is a good example of that. In the lower nonleague divisions of england. Obviously buri is a pro approaching that at clifton bolton wanderers aren't far behind them and you know most of these bremmer league teams on annual operations budget are running at a deficit and a lot of these clubs such as fulham football club who spent one hundred million pounds in the transfer window. We're basically banking on spending a bunch of money. A main- maintain not getting relegated and then maintaining that level of funding so you're just constantly. It's just another roll. The dice for a lot of these lower level cubs aren't backed by oil bearing in countries from the middle east area and i remember another statistic marcus might be old. I might be missing remembering but i think at one point in the entire italian professional all the divisions that they had there was one club that was not operating on a deficit and so you know i think there's one on my other friends who is a british ex. Pat says if you want to become a millionaire become a billionaire i and then by a soccer team and so i think it's an interesting question as you know the the prize at the top and you know the top one percent of clubs continue to make excessive amounts of money and have so much more bankrolling and able to burn through everything on transfer fees and everything what happens to those middle tier clubs and what happens those clubs at the bottom and just because it's good for barcelona real madrid or even just because it's good for lita doesn't doesn't mean it's good for the spanish in third and fourth division and we could say the same thing about all the other pyramids as well <hes> nevertheless the pyramid screen that is major league soccer. Yeah i think it'd be good to kind of wrap this conversation by saying that you know both matinee are smart college educated dudes and we generally have a lot of misgivings about the financial models of soccer. It's really uncomfortable. It doesn't feel like it's properly structured major league soccer. One of the conversations going on for a long time is whether there's a bit of a bubble on major league soccer or whether it's more of you know i i don't agree but i know a lot of people think that it is quote unquote a ponzi the scheme that the whole expansion fee thing is the way by which the league is financing itself. I don't entirely believe that because i think the league finances dances itself on teams being roughly break even but the value of of a thing appreciating so like what makes really quickly what makes <music> van goghs <hes> wildflowers a painting worth forty one million dollars the reasonably old now because someone really league values somebody values than go and somebody values that painting. Somebody believes that unique piece of art. <hes> is really worth forty. One million dollars versus the painting that my daughter did this morning in first grade which nobody will pay for like they're both pieces of art. You know it's just the eye of the beholder other and soccer soccer teams are the same day appreciate because they're a very rare commodity and people really want them <hes> if they ever stopped being in rare or if people decided they weren't valuable than people wouldn't buy them so that's like the that's the broader thing. Is that like you know. You need to be able to run your club. At at least you know roughly <hes> a zero you now to be in the black as they say you don't need if you're buying a soccer her club because you think it's gonna make you rich. You're more on <hes> but as a as a if you're a billionaire and you buy a soccer club you hope at least it doesn't lose you too much money in you. You can flip it for a small profit down the road but the thing is over and over again. Let's talk actual soccer. Instead of soccer finance matt alright markelle. We're going to keep this brief refocus mostly because we don't want to get we don't wanna give like p._t._s._d. To all of your listeners but mark this past saturday at the rotea the colorado rapids were defeated by real salt lake by score of kunal. I think a good first half for the pids. If you ask me it was the twenty seven th minute where you had a chaotic sequence in which tommy smith heads the balk now nick romano stops it. I think kamara had one or two shots at the ball one of which that like nick romano like spiked out of the air like while falling down as well and then openly lawless abu boubacar had another shot and that ends up going out relatively even the rest of the first half you have the the <hes> redcar to kamara in the eighty ninth minute <hes> you know pretty cut and dry for me as far as the ball comes in and he had no real chance chance at getting to it and he sticks his leg out trying to get a touch and you know he comes in late on brooks lennon after lennon had already headed the ball far away. That's pretty clear for me. Even though i know some rapid's fans at least on twitter were upset about it given that there was an actual contact. I think that that type of challenges something. I don't wanna see in our soccer nation nation and so <hes> fouls punishments that deter that behavior is a good thing in the net get in the long term as far as american soccer's occurs concern demure croat scores a goal but it ends up being offsides because <hes> jack price completely whiffs on an absolute karen some there and then shop latta in stoppage time time draws a p._k. Converts in varina beats howard on the end. I mean just is there anything. We want to say about this mark. I feel like you know we'll get to this in a couple of minutes when we actually we talk about the big news but i mean the rapids clinker officially turn the page on the twenty twenty you know they're nine points last night check ahead of f._c. Cincinnati for the wooden spoon and so there comfortably outside the wooden spoon race comfortably outside the playoff race and last thing for them to play for was going to be the rocky mountain cup and that obviously ended this saturday saturday. I feel like most people are checking out in terms of actual results wins losses and the standings for two hundred nineteen in that. Is there anything that we gleaned from or care about in this game <unk> last saturday. I think the only thing i will say is that if you look at expected goals so one of the great things that american soccer analysis now doing by game expected goals you can see did my team deserves to win that game and they're actually updating it right. After the game they were taking about a half a week or a week to do it and now so you just pull it up and and look at american soccer analysis dot com <hes> expected goals by game so for this last game salt lake scored two goals and had had an home expected goals rate of one point nine meaning the on they played a very average game a very average goalkeeper made exactly the stops he who is supposed to make in a very average goalkeeper missed the stops that he wasn't gonna make and that's being tim howard we're talking about <hes> on the other side of things <hes> colorado colorado had two point four two expected goals and scored zero meaning that by rights based on the shots. They took in the positions. They took the numbers of shots. The colorado rapids should have won that game two to one or really two point four to one point nine fine. Although you can't score point four goal we all know that matt cooper. The rapid scored zero goals. I think it goes to a point you made briefly flee in the recap which is nick rondo had a great game and by the way discipline if you look at goalkeepers remond does near the bottom of worst goalkeepers keepers in m._l._s. season. He just had an exceptional game. I don't know what overcame him. I don't know what it was but he he really pulled those that you you had you had that great mention of any should go look up the highlights. If you didn't see this game he has a goal where he basically closet away from almost behind them and it's really leave remarkable. It was an incredible save. I forget who shot at but <hes> you know this was a game that colorado and salt lake played. You know on <music> on t._v. It looked like a draw basically. They're both teams. Were very good in yet. Salt lake kinda grinded all the way to the end and then end scored two at the death. <hes> you know if i wanted to be cliche i would say this was a game about who wanted it more. I don't really believe that but <hes> the rapid rapids kind of like faded in the final ten minutes and i think that that was <hes> all she wrote. That's the kind of thing that happens on the road. You know that's that's what happens when you leave the rocky mountain cup to your road game instead of trying to lock it up at home. Yeah no market points on that. I'll just say that two points first of all one thing that i want to amend or or give the listeners and idea to think about when they also look at x. Goals remember listeners that this is just calculating every single shot. I think the advanced analytics approaching. You know someone who's looking at it from how i do. My own stats analysis professionally. Mark is that you look at the rapids head you know three or four of those chances from you know like one or two yards out on that one sequence in the twenty-seventh minute for example and so you had a bunch of those chances and so an ex goals just looks at that x. Schools counts each one of those shots and the distances away as its own separate events so i haven't looked at the top of my head. I'm going to assume mark that most shots that occur within two yards of the goal line. That's probably a really really high x goals. You know as opposed to you know any shot outside. The box is going to be like point. Oh five five. I percents going in and then shots in the box. You know might be a tent. You know might be ten percent if the angles really really good so not scoring on those could have potentially inflate flavor. The rapids chances whereas reality if you don't play that out if tommy smith scores header than kai can't score on the follow ups and lawless can't score on the fourth chances dances well so you say that those are four chances that potentially the rapids could have those aren't four rolls of the dice. Those are four rolls of the dice. Were as soon as you hit you know as soon as you hit double sixes on one of those you don't get any more roles on that chance for example so i mean you know if you just if i'm paying the ball off the goalkeeper's head head fifty times in a row just because i can't shoot anywhere that isn't his head and those are fifty chances from one yard out that all backup as far as schools are concerned that could potentially lead to fifty goals or multiple goals. It's one whole sequence and you can only score one goal on sequence. If one of those chances goes in none of the chances afterwards happened so i don't know offhand from the individual chances how much that buffet up mark but that one sequence and the series of saves by raimondo and blocks by ourselves offenders could have inflated the rapids ex school such that you thought that they were actually a better team when maybe that was really lucky or it was just all of their chances coming in a sequence as opposed to the rapids producing fibers ever six high quality chances from right in front of goal throughout the game all of which individually could have been a goal independent of the other shooting opportunities. I think that's a great point point. I think i think once in a while winning out that like expected goals has some small flaws to it or that. You need to watch games and not just look at metrics. Israeli valid and i also think that what you said there that was really good. Is that like you know to boil it down to one <unk> sentence if you're in a sequence like that. Where are your peppering the goal with shots. If one of them goes in after like two or three put backs <hes> put back attempts <hes> you you only lose that game two to one if you're you don't get two goals because they all came in the same sequence that was well sad <hes> but nonetheless i think colorado probably really should have could have might have gotten out of there with a one one draw but they didn't or nothing but they didn't yeah i guess to to that point mark and it was something i was gonna make but then you set me up perfectly for that is this game for me was so emblematic of the rapid season lots of opportunities some decent decent plays not great place and then ultimately mistakes that ultimately ended up letting it go away like if i were to sum up any individual game to say this is so so symbolic of the two thousand nine hundred colorado rapids you know at least in the we'll throw out the first ten games obviously because that was an outlier and obviously hudson and wasn't going to be part of the club afterwards words in terms of just the narrative of the middle of the season of getting results being a little bit lucky sometimes getting outplayed bang flat playing bad opponents during that seven game mm-hmm unbeaten streak and then you know largely. It's been you know slightly fluky win close game that they get a draw or they get a win or they get a loss and then other games where they're completely outplayed and it looks. It's like you know clearly that they don't deserve to be in the playoffs. This was a game that i think summed up a lot of the problems. Despite some of the good things that the teams improved on twenty nineteen and and for me like this game like this ninety minutes or you know the ninety nine after you count all the minutes of stoppage time that was another thing it perfectly summed up the twenty nine thousand nine season <hes> yup. That's well said i think <hes> i think understanding that maybe we had all of our lucky games in twenty sixteen if you you look at the math or if you look at the numbers from twenty sixteen the rapids won a tremendous number of <hes> not only wins by one goal but also wins lately lately asked a seventy fifth minute and maybe they extended all their lock for the decade in one year all right mark. Let's move on very briefly. Just for the sake of completeness completeness to the new york red bulls colorado rapids listeners this coming saturday. The colorado rapids will be traveling to red bull arena. They'll be taking on the pink cows cows it will be a five pm mountain standard time kickoff on altitude and e._s._p._n. Plus for some of our listeners who are nebraska or maybe even scandinavia since we've got a few we we might still have some shubert listening. Maybe not some bloomberg's anymore mark but in any case new york rebels currently fourth in the eastern conference forty one points off of twenty eight games played a twelve eleven and five record with a plus five goal differential and they are eight four into at r._b._i. The season the rapids i think just by goal differential if i'm not mistaken yes or no excuse me by games played and then off of having one more win than vancouver on the rapids up to eleventh in the western conference. They have twenty seven points off twenty games played. We are now twenty seven thirty four th through the twenty nine thousand nine colorado rapids death march mark. They have a record of seven seven fourteen in six a negative eleven goal differential and a road record of one four one eight and four that loan wind coming against these la timeless elegance l. a. galaxy. I just really briefly mark. I'm going to assume our listeners are aware enough that they know that bradley wright phillips is on the new york red bulls. They have cuckoo and danny royer who who are both mary fantastic players probably one of the best back lines in m._l._s. You obviously have louis rebels from goal aaron long tim parker centreback kemar lawrence who you know if if like if kemar lawrence fallen into latte for the rapids and somehow sam vines could move into a different role. I think it'd be an absolute blast for the rapids to be excited about him as opposed to edgar casio alder respect mark birch any case. I'll stop being a kemar lawrence fan case marco. What are you seeing this game. Do we care about it. Happy on the narrative of robin frazier's first games head manager of the rapids is against the team. He was insistent for after getting fired chiefs u._s._a. And then also presumed pending a miraculous comeback for the rapids and making the play offs and then somehow making m._l._s. cup against the red bulls this will be the final game in the new new york new jersey area for one tim howard well. I also want to add one other named the pile of names that we like to talk about which is <hes> mark rutkowski muskie who is the is the midfielder and has the best nickname i think in soccer so his his <hes> polish sounding although german-born name <hes> <hes> starts with an r. z. n. a. meaning and so <hes> red bulls fans refer to him as the rizza which is just wooten name which is about as perfect as a guest in my humble opinion <hes> yeah you're right. I mean the rapids have a really hard time away to red bowl. I remember the last two games. They played their and they really struggled. I also remember the home games they've played against rebel <hes> and they did pretty darn well so <hes> away to red bull is like almost unwinnable. I think it's just an absolutely something arena when folks folks are excited. <hes> and i think you're right. I think the only narrative of this game is. Let's see what robin fraser can do. We'll talk more about robin frazier in in the next segment but <hes> i think rapids fans are gonna be excited to see how he lines up who he starts. I think a basic simple question is is he gonna try and just have the exact same lineup in the exact same formation and tactics as conor casey since casey has found some decent success. That's what this team and just say like. Oh you know we'll just play out the string and let's not complicate the guys. It's only been a week or is he gonna try and do something radical indifferent to just start off awesome <unk> my guess would be to lean towards the former that he's not gonna mess with things and i don't know that there's much hope that we win. This game. <hes> based on that i it's very hard the week after to get a team to transition to a new manager and find that it's it's gonna work immediately immediately so we'll really see that's i think only the only thing fans are are really going to be looking for is <hes> who gets who gets put on the lineup card hard and what they if there is going to be anything noticeably different about the way they play yeah good point there mark. I guess maybe the one thing that i'll say on this front is as you know. Everybody was kind of you know. The one thing that i think is a fair assessment in terms of just looking at these different coaches and maybe something that will gain an insight on in the coming months from robin frazier is just the assignments that they had you know clearly. Anthony hudson on some level was asked to execute the not the rapids way at the risk of the immediate results that was facing the team so he would rather have a team is winning the possession battle trying to create some chances clearly not there and then lose two or three one at home to an eastern conference team than simply to try and get a result this week and we saw a lot of hashtag that keep fighting pablo ball approaches from one conor casey albeit from someone who is a former forward in this league and then was able to scheme offensive ideas. Obviously we had a lot more weapons than i think. Twenty seventeen iteration of the rapids pablo was kneeling within pablo. Mastroeni ultimately got fired from that team but i'm kind of correa's to see you know where's the mindset from the t now because everybody was kind of just waiting in limbo just focus on every single week and now you know if you're a guy who's not guaranteed indeed a contract for twenty twenty. If you're a guy who has a team option and you know has been maligned on the last two managers such as a one tommy smith for example you know no. You're potentially playing for your job right now. You have to do something in training to impress the manager to think that you know you can work in my system and you can in your player who should be here and has value to us in twenty twenty and then if not if nothing else you know you're trying to put together one more highlight tackle or or pass or goal or something you know to be part of your highlight reel that your agents going to click together and put towards other other clubs trying to sign you so there's a couple of european european players who i think given their salaries situation and maybe you know coming here under the guise of playing under hudson and now being under an american manager who might have more domestic team team other than some key european stars khanna like we saw with toronto f._c. Albeit with canadian stars given the rosser situation that toronto had and obviously if the new york red bulls outside outside of the big. G._p.'s tom terry on res and the not is it was it tim cahill the australian. I think yeah tim k hill as well so oh you know there's a decent possibility mark that tommy smith is playing and has to impress robin fraser to get his twenty twenty contract option exercise. Oh danny wilson there were some rumblings about interest and maybe the rapids could get out from under his twenty twenty guaranteed contracts. They're looking at that whereas jack prices head right now since i assume there's at least one middling championship or league one club that would probably be willing to take a flyer on him and there's a bunch of american players who didn't really rate for or connor casey or even anthony hudson for an extended period that i think would have value within this league is a trade ad set. We've talked about actual shubert. We've talked about concern. Maybe even a for example and then i guess now we'll get into this markelle. Everybody was back with the rapids is training today. I was at training and reported on this. The homegrown home-grown bassett and sebastian andersen last week were sent down for the remainder of the season were immediately recalled nikki jackson back from charlotte independence. Every single player who who had a first team contract for twenty twenty with the rapids at the start of the season was in training and robin frazier. I think this week is going to be taking a full audit of the players players what they have and everything and that's going to color how he approaches the game against new york and everything else in. I'm assuming the court ford was not there air or if he was there was not i did not see court for it. At training i also did not see excuse me so life fact check thank you mark. I did not see court forty hordic training and then obviously tim howard would have been on your television right about noontime. Talk about champions league folks so those players were not there. Declan win was president but he was not actively participated in training. He's coming back from injury. <hes> and then kai kamara was there but he checked out a little bit earlier mark on he has has <hes>. I don't know if you saw this but he made up with the sierra leone federation about that where potentially he was gonna get suspended indefinitely so he's good to go. He'll be with them for their world. Cup qualifier as will go out to buy who's been playing very well the last month or so switchback so they'll both be unavailable on international duty not so i presume kyw will probably be serving that suspension for the red card against ourselves not this weekend but against the is it. The sounders or is it toronto ronald seed. It's coming up next. I want to say it's i think it's the sounders that are coming up on the week's from saturday. Well done okay. I'm i'm with that mark. I think it's probably time for us to give our listeners. The rundown of robin frazier's resume as a soccer player and head coach. Shall we do it aright listeners. Robin frazier is was born in kingston jamaica u._s. player internationally. He played from nineteen eighty eight to two two thousand. One only had twenty seven caps of the center back was not much of a feature in any of the major world cup qualifiers off the top of my head. At least he was not a part of the nineteen ninety-four squad where he potentially would have overlapped with marcelo balboa grew up in miami actually went to miami palmetto high school. Just a couple of miles away from the university. Miami was an f._b._i. Golden panther at the college level spent some time with the miami sharks was later with the colorado foxes wearing the old school green in the mid nineties nineties mark and then when emily came into existence in one thousand nine hundred six he signed with the galaxy was with pam until the year two thousand one hundred and twenty nine games and there i i believe was part of their runner ups to m._l._s. cop and want to support her. She'll as a player with them. In one thousand nine hundred ninety eight as well and then he made his way back to colorado he was with the pigs from two thousand one until two thousand and three played seventy four games before finishing his career in the middle of the two point. Oh with columbus crew in excess of hundred caps as a professional and as an international after that i guess he took a year off in in two thousand six and then in two thousand seven he was an assistant with real salt lake under then jason. Kreis was a part of their two thousand nine. M._l._s. cup run. That was successful mark. They got his first opportunity with chivas usa after the jesse mar sasha question brag era and then at that point chivas usa multi the forum that old school m._l._s. fans will remember just effectively being a feeder team for the league max club not being really well funded being a complete disaster from the business standpoint and just no real strategy for how to you know how to gain relevancy in los angeles market that was still very much dominated by the galaxy at that time under the sigi smith i at ration- of the clobbered then also frank yallop in there as well you know they had the infamous tarps on you. You know the stadium at stubhub. They were a tenant. They were renting not really great situation for them. Robin fraser was fired after just his second season with them. A record of fifteen thirty two and twenty one not very good market just based on how we saw everything else go on with that club. I'm not sure you know put bradley in charge of achievers u._s._a. Put ola in charge of jesus u._s._a. In that time and i'm not sure the results are any better. <hes> robin frazier then moves on to be an assistant with the new york dark red bulls where he was under the now unemployed mike pecci. I'm from two thousand thirteen to two thousand fourteen spent some time with terry on rian there. I believe as a coach one supporter shield or no they didn't twenty thirty in two thousand fourteen twenty thirteen yeah and then obviously made his his way to toronto f._c. Where he was with them up until i assume this week or maybe even last week so he was with them from two thousand fifteen to twenty one thousand nine hundred a couple of supporters shields roads are obviously pamelas. Cop the run to the noc copa america. Excuse me the final you know where they were. One penalty kick way off. Oh from winning that in the entire time that robin frazier was there. He was under <hes> greg vanney. You know who's mired at least for me. Mark is one of the best american coaches his m._l._s. right now mark. What do you make of robin frazier. The former player robin fraser the assistant coach and ultimately the the person who has cultivated it and developed over the course of the last decade as a coach walking in and taking over the colorado rapids a lot of questions matt a lot of questions <hes> but that in both senses of the phrase i think one is really important or exciting for a person who manages the colorado rapids to have a personal connection connection to the team. I think that was a challenge with anthony hudson <hes> and that's gonna sound kinda ridiculous in the sense that like <hes> pablo mastroeni conor casey both i had personal connections to the club as former players so maybe i'm judging anthony hudson harshly but it helps to some degree to have a person person who comes to colorado and wants to be part of it because they feel a kinship with the club feel a connection to the badge. They know the city city. You know they know that when you get confused <hes> when you when you're driving and you're not really sure which way you're going you just look up and figure out which way the mountains are and then you know like that's the thing right like you know where the good ice cream places are and to and to have a sense of like you. Don't get on colorado boulevard on friday afternoon. Four o'clock at these are things for people but real thing a sense of the place i think n. N this is gonna sound like a nostalgic <hes> wistful pining from a guy who just visited colorado a couple of days ago and no longer lives there there because it is but also because <hes> it's very true. You know miami's gonna gonna have to <hes> you know. Miami has the cachet of being miami and new york and chicago in l. a. new york chicago l._a. For international managers there's for <hes> even former m._l._s. players were high quality. M._l._s. assistance in coaches colorado is a place you change planes in. It's not a place that people know but once you've visited there spent time there or lived there for <unk> amount of time. You feel like i would really like to live up there again and those are. That's an important thing to be honest for rapids manager because we're not gonna get bruce arena. We're not gonna get todd martina. We're not gonna get back artioli like they're not coming. You know if i got a guy from the austrian league you know who's used to the alps and everything but that's about it. May we're just we're just not gonna get a coach. Who says you know i only want to go to a <hes> high falutin luton fancy team. We're just not that so what we need to be is a little bit liquor. You know we need to be the kind of team that comes from from a flyover state but people understand that it is an absolutely beautiful place to be like peter vermes is at or in kansas city for reason like he is connected to them. <hes> otherwise kansas city is a place that you accidentally stumbled through on your way by the cornfields like so that's thing that that that robin fraser is a good pick because he honestly has a connection to the club and he'd probably actually wants to be there whereas anthony hudson at best was looking at steppingstone worse was like well new zealand work out well. This'll pay me a bunch of money now second the most exciting thing <hes> before i turn it back to you is to ask the question like what kind of soccer is he going to play and gonna fit with the quote unquote rapids way that pork smith laid out a few years ago and i think the answer to that is it looks from the early press conference which you covered and i'm going to ask you about <hes> that he has an attacking mindset and he wants nice to play interesting pretty soccer and not play kind of dire depressing soccer <hes> the way pablo mastroeni did nothing wrong in my humble opening with way master any played <hes> it just felt like it was moving in the direction of being part of a bygone era of m._l._s. where you could a grind out results and win the cop. It's been a long time since of very highly defensive team won everything and am alas <hes> <hes> you really need in the new era to be able to do some razzle dazzle and work your way down the field and score goals so it feels like robin. Frazier is a good pick from those two reasons. What are you seeing in robin frazier. Why might he be a good pick and most importantly <hes> you cover the press conference conference. What did you learn at the press conference yeah so i'll start with your your first question there and i actually in doing. I did more for this than i do. Normally my interviews folks. This is the inside baseball part of it but i'm thinking about the angle of the article or whatever i'm reporting on is i'm thinking about who i'm talking to and the type of personality that is the types of questions and the way i'd go about it with a jack. Price is different from how i go about it with kamara. You know there are a bunch of guys who are going. They give you short little clips just because they want to and then there are some of the guys who actually want to have a philosophical conversation and some i need to poke and prod and you know go about choosing my questions is in there so in order to frame myself for this interview or for just the press conference and everything not having interviewed robin frazier before anything was. I started back with the origin story for really how we got here. Mark and i think the origin for that you know i think has to go back to the op-ed from the rapids two years ago with the denver post. Yes you know about the rapid sway and so the key thing that i'm looking at right now and or that i looked at when doing my preparation i don't wanna fully turn this podcast new anthony hudson bashing shing session but where maybe i'm seeing how robin frazier is going to be a better fit. Here is one thing that poor accessing the op-ed so we want to be a high intensity team team. That's willing to take calculated risks in the right areas of the field but all the while maintaining the defensive discipline that is part and parcel with who we are and always has been and so when i initially when i what i remember about the rapids way was thinking you know maybe just just in my own thought process was that this is. We need to be an attractive. We need to be an attacking team. That plays attractive possessing possession soccer and you saw times i want hudson was i think closest to eat his ethos and his modus operandi from an approach to the game from phases of play. Tim formation to how he approached games is is that he would rather in a season where he where it was a stepping stone for the club and making progress he would rather go out there against a good would eastern conference team possess the ball out shoot them lose the x. goals battle and ultimately lose three one if it was an approach towards that but in a lot of ways i feel like hudson on the paradigm between you know benny ball and pablo tactics and ticky tack on whatever you wanna call pep guardiola man city right now you you know anthony hudson was closer to that attack inside and rereading the rapids way. I just immediately thought <hes> maybe anthony maybe pork was thinking you know as opposed to if one one is you know the pablo pablo mastroeni and ben olsen and ten is <hes> pep guardiola and and lionel messi and everything you know he was effectively lee sang the rapids are at a two and we maybe need to go to a four and at times be a six and so when i remember talking to robin frazier about about this i remember abby mood from the burgundy wave asked a great question about just implementing and style of play and everything and at one point i think robin frazier had probably the most real he'll statement i've ever seen from a head coach in their first press conference of you know it was effectively head managers come in and they got the job and they do the press conference that they say we're gonna play attractive possession attacking soccer and he said you know the reality is is that a is that you know it doesn't matter if you're an attractive attacking team that scores much of goals also if you if you also let in a bunch of goals a club that while i was here when they were most successful focused on defense i but had an idea about how to go oh into the attack and had an actual systematic approach to that and frazier said in his interview on extratime radio in me when i spoke with him and then in the general opening statement as well l. that he had ideas about the defensive side of the ball at sheva say he did not have attacking ideas when he was achieves u._s._a. He learned about in york red bulls and he said that he learned a lot from greg vanney about that approach. Obviously he's going to be more defensive guy. As a centre back we saw the same thing with mastroeni a former holding midfielder and we've i've seen conor casey had some better ideas on the attacking side of the ball being a former forward you know having the most goals in rapid history but just everything that i got in the sense of a question about the rapids way or style of play or how he's going to execute or improve the team is defense is still going to be number one but we have to have a better systematic approach each to creating chances and finishing those chances and we need to have players in order to do that. That's something that pablo never really had it was not anything that he ever oh really emphasized and it was nothing and it seemed like anthony hudson was not self aware to realize that taking a team that in two thousand seventeen would only score or one or maybe score one goal a game but could regularly shut out good teams at diaz g park. It doesn't like flipping it to where you're a good offensive team but a terrible herbal a good offensive team but a terrible defensive team doesn't really help you and i think everything that that i was noticing just from the theme of what frazier was sang was we are going to instill foundation of what we're doing from a defensive side and i have the tactical analytical ideas and you know maybe a better sense of of players to attract to the club they can help us be effective in some of those phases of play or to go back to you know the actual the cannon that we're talking talking about in the rapids way being team that is high intensity and takes calculated risks in the right areas of the field. That was something that pablo mastroeni team was not very good at that was a thing that anthony hudson teams took a bunch of uncalculated risks all over the place and something that i think conor casey stabilized albeit in a very very finite approach and i think frazier clearly has an idea or believe that he has an ideal to execute the rapids way and closer to a three or four on that scale where pablo it was a one or two and hudson was doing very tolerable job of being a seven or an eight one being defensive rapid rapid slug live and ten being trying c._b._s. L. a._f._c. right now. What was your next question mark. There's a bunch of stuff in there. Mostly asked what the press conference. I think that was the most important question for me. Okay i asked i asked fraser directly about his thoughts on the rapids de academy and the young players and everything and he said in his time at toronto keeping in in mind that greg vanney was originally the academy director folks before he got the full-time gig with toronto f._c. And he brought in guys like a jonathan sawyer who appraised on this podcast and said cole bassett could get to being jonathan and soil that would be pan tastic and frazier just said you know i have a mindset for young players from a mentorship intercept standpoint how i think how it can help them develop and just on approach the seemed to be you know really grounded seemed to be grounded in patients and you would just gradual talking i when i was at training mark and you know this is kind of hard to gauge just because it's the first one but there were regular times during drills during scrimmages in which fraser fraser would just completely blow the whistle completely interrupt the face of play and everything that was going on and talk for three or four minutes straight engaging a bunch of different players talking about about things in really detail from what i could tell you know and normally some of the other coaches we've seen i won't go through. What every single one of them does you know. They might talk to an they might stop things to talk to to the individual. They might stop things to at the end of the drill to talk about things that was going on. Frazier immediately stopped things okay. This isn't right. You guys aren't understanding something. Let's actually talk about there. Were tactical. Teaching moments and frazier talked about wanting to have those tactical teaching moments for those young players and you know having them be more about progress progress so apply. If i were to apply this to an educational standpoint mark that you might be able to relate to you know he was focusing on growth more so than what's the other one in the context of like standardized tests growth versus acumen. I think i guess <laughter> okay yeah so he focused more on growth and so he didn't talk a lot about the rapids d._a. Specifically typically just because he was new and who knows how many times he's actually spoken to brian crookham so far but besides hi my name's robyn frazier hi my name's brian crookham but you know he said that he recognized denies the talent that's there. He says that even just in the first couple of training sessions he sees a lot of potential in all the homegrown players and you know that he thinks that he can put authentic to be successful and i think is track record working under greg vanney <hes> with all the homegrown toronto f._c. Had from <hes> suba endo to <hes> come to jonathan her story. Oh i think is a good you know a good track record or show that i think that you know young coal and young savon sam combines are in good hands from that standpoint for the rapids and you know he's going to be a lot more pragmatic and i think careful with them and made we've seen from other coaches <hes> and then i also had there was one question that we have and also address mark <hes> conor casey was not at training and it's since been confirmed by portsmouth smith that conor casey was offered the opportunity to stay as an assistant with the club robin fraser my understanding had given that blessing and then also he was was offered the opportunity to be the new head manager for the rest of the season and then into twenty twenty with colorado springs switchback and casey turn both of those down so o'connor casey is now officially no longer affiliated with the colorado rapids and i guess for all intents and all intent and purpose is unemployed at this point and who knows you know you might be able to speak better mark as far as a u._s. L. team that might would you might be able to fit in with what conor casey's done for the last two or three months but that's at least disappointing for me. 'cause that tells me mark that you know casey didn't want to sit around to be assistant under a new third head manager manager and i think clearly maybe he thought that he had done enough to steady the ship. I don't want to speak for conor casey. I think he certainly i. I would be willing to bet money that he left the club on better terms than certainly pablo mastroeni did the day that he was fired her certainly paul bravo the day that he quit this kind kind of just the fact that he didn't want to hang around and maybe the club shortchanged him or you know maybe secretly. We're gonna find out in the next couple of weeks as the u._s. L. season you know winds lines down that you know somebody else. Give him an opportunity and it's an opportunity that frankly is better than what the switch backs are dealing with right now. I i am surprised is that he didn't wanna take the switchback job. It seems like a good move <hes> to get your foot in the door the u._s. team so now that kinda blows blows my mind in the sense of like what's the next step for conor casey. I mean my assumption. One of these subjects that i could make is that <hes> you get paid really well to fill in for a fired manager because there are many other options and you know that being an interim is a terrible the job in the sense that you have negative job security. I mean almost without without without the possibility except for the possibility many of total miracle occurring conor casey stepped into a job where he knew it wasn't gonna last like you. You're taking a temp job where you could be relieve your duties at any any moment at <unk> with no rice out any of your performance being a factor in that so i wonder i wonder off the bat like what his motivation was is in turning down the job in saying i'm i'm. I'm not gonna take the cars springs <unk> assistant job and my gut tells me i could be wrong is that he felt hurt like he really kinda psyched himself up into thinking that he might actually have shot at being the full time mm manager when the team said we don't want you as full time manager he said well then. I don't really want to be affiliated organization. I'll take my chances somewhere else. He might be smart smart. I mean honestly the the the first call you make after you're relieved of your duty your agent say that look like for me twenty four hours and you when you find out what the agent can suss out for you and maybe the agent has a couple of smart moose for you. Maybe the agents says you know what is like four new u._s. Sell teams coming online next year. <hes> you have a really good resume. There's another ten emma u._s._o. Clubs who are going to fire their managers bundesliga experienced and there are a lot of league one teams that might want you like you. Don't need to jump at the first job that comes across your plate. So <hes> does god is it either. He was hurt or his his agent said you could do better than this crappy job. In colorado springs said there mark <hes> you know maybe a couple of things i know noticed i spoke with pork after the press conference and everything and i asked him about robin frazier's approach to roster building and then in particular what they're going to do with the two dp slots <hes> and then also just <hes> robin frazier's approach as far as <hes> fitness and analytics obviously the sports science department and the the fran taylor's others of the world have been built out in the last two seasons with the rapids so pork actually kind of alluded to the fact that when they were looking around for other teams to model what what they wanted to do from atlanta analytic standpoint he noted that toronto of c. was one of those that that that was a major factor in there and they were very familiar with that staff and everything the thing and they spoke very highly of robin frazier so you know maybe that was. Maybe that's coincidental. Maybe that's slim thinking. We want another analytics guy. Who's maybe going to run and do something with that and robin fraser was good fit on with that but <hes> frazier seems to believe that approach as far as analyzing players and analyzing teams <hes> from from analytical standpoint in terms of what they wanna do from phases of play <hes> you know and then obviously as a player who's used to playing at altitude and you know had hashtag strength altitude from two thousand one two thousand and three. That's maybe not something that's going to be emphasized by robin fraser but something that he's going to be aware of and is going to you know factor that into his approach and maybe he'll have a healthier approach being a former player who had to play in it when emily was very physical and then obviously you know you're with toronto of see that a you know is a world class training facility or at least on an analyst level you know one of the best training facilities and medical staffs and if you're one of those guys who's regularly coaching michael bradley the who in his early thirties was destroying the beep test relative to other u._s. Internationals he's going to have an understanding of fitness and maybe approach so you know from a lester crony and wade and say you know pablo or or anthony approached it as well <hes>. Do we want to thank your fitness. Point was great. I just wanted to comment on that. I don't think i think we've gone. We have to go all the way back to mass ready to see a coach who understood that altitude altitude was a thing that you can use as an extra weapon weaponize it i don't. I don't think hudson understood how i think hudson. I actually played against it a lot of time. I don't think he maximize the a possible home field advantage and i think you know i'm not gonna check right now but like like i'm sure that his home wrecker wasn't very good and he it it was partially because he didn't really understand how to maximize altitude. <hes> an oh casey the sample size is probably small to know whether he he understood what to do. There were a lot of questions. Mark put out on rapid. Tiny six podcasts casts folks. You know i just said you know hey what's everybody's reaction to robin frazier and then it was kind of span the gamut but there was a lot of cautiously optimistic a lot of we'll wait and z. I'm you know i'm not gonna gamble out. I'm not gonna you know render an opinion or decision now on this <hes> and there were a lot of people who maybe talk less about the decision or the person and more so talked about the timing of it you know obviously you know we alluded to wilmer cabrera coming available and then he got hired by montreal impact. I'm going to assume the rapids weren't going to go after jason kreis or it might pecci anytime soon and i feel like if the rapids were seriously seriously considering an international manager you know somebody from outside prior. M._l._s. experience or knowledge of the american system that you know some outlet outlet in another country that we'd have to plug through google translate would have picked up on it. You know to try and get some banter on that as well so in that sense. I think you know we've been talking about this for months that the two most likely candidates the two who've probably been interviewed for the job who if the rapids are making decision anytime soon is going to be todd ramose us or robin fraser your thoughts on maybe the candidate pool and rye frazier was the best option available tab ramos or otherwise and in particular the timing of this of the fact that they were supposedly considering josh wolff at the beginning of june and maybe they could have made this hiring decision with frazier if they wanted to rush things up in the middle of july or they could have waited waited until the end of the season and i think a lot of fans thing oh it's convenient to change the narrative now that the team has nothing to play for 'cause. They're not gonna make playoffs. They're not gonna win the wooden spoon and they're not gonna win. Rocky mountain cup your thoughts decision to go with frazier as opposed roms and then the timing of the announcement as well as you mentioned wolf went off to austin awesome and so he is no longer a candidate <hes> and then other possibilities. I gary smith is pretty unlikely but he was a former rapids manager and has really done very well and u._s. Al but <hes> is going back to m._l._s. with nashville when they come in next year. <hes> you've got jason crisis available. Mike pecci we talked about a couple of weeks ago needs to do a one or two year <hes> <hes> <hes> of his personal image before he's nontoxic <hes> and then so you've got tab ramos than i can't really say white. Tab ramos wasn't picked <hes> he he he had a lot of the intangibles. He looked like a very good coach it also i i heard rumblings that he was very happy with the u._s. M._n._t. u twenty three's and they were happy with him and that he <hes> that's all he really wanted a that. Maybe it's almost a lateral move. Ooh and maybe the top ramos has aspirations to be an international head coach and that the u twenty three's a better path to that than going going to a struggling m._l._s. team. <hes> frazier's really good higher because he's been out there. You mentioned his curriculum vitae very well and explained cleaned all of his assistant credentials. He's one supporter shield. He's one analyst cup. He's been around really successful coaches and i think understands the game ending understand coaching from a higher level i think he has the resume that conor casey would have wanted if he were interviewing for this. This job which is multiple assistant ships a little bit of head coaching time <hes> a winning record as a player under good head managers yeah <hes> <hes> it it is worth mentioning that robin frazier has been in the pool we probably talked about this when his name first game but it has been in the m._l._s. coach candidates for years and he has been mentioned as a finalist and then passover ultimately <hes> <hes> there has been a lot of talk about the fact that some people feel like frazier was interviewed because he is black and that all teams wanted a to interview a black candidate so they say they believe in minority hiring. I'm encouraged that the rap is not only hired a interviewed him but hired. I heard him. I think it speaks to the fact that frazier is the most talented the most qualified candidate <hes> his race is not that important that being i said <hes> i want us to be on record matt as a podcast as being the first people to discuss that he's one of only a handful of of black head coaches in major league soccer. I'm not sure if that's an accurate statement. He might be the only black head coach in major league soccer <hes> patrick vieira <hes> was the last one that i can think of off the top of my head <hes> and i think that's significant you know somebody pointed out that something like a quarter of the players in the league are <hes> black and they don't have any coaches to represent them so that's a significant representations matters. I think that's significant <hes> <hes>. I don't think that that was a factor at all of the rapids in hiring him. I think the factor was easy. Absolute best coach was american experience on the market and he has deep ties to the rapids. <hes> well someone that from arkham just pulling up the head coaches. You know there's a lot of the there's a lot of international representation in here and certainly representation for the latin american communities whether you have wilmer cabrera whose colombian for example and then you know obviously you know. There's a handful full of argentines now throughout the throughout the the league as well. I'm gonna make a possibly really ignorant statement here marcus a white guy i. I'm not sure just looking at him. Whether or not chris armas may be mixed race and then possibly has some you know some would clatter rise arise himself as a person of color. I remember there was an interview a couple years ago. After one of the fast and furious movies came out and it was like one of the first actual like in-depth like behind find the person interviews that vin diesel did in which he confirmed that he would consider himself a person of color. I could be totally ignorant on here. If anybody wants to check my white guy privilege on here police collecting if i'm missing something like i i want to be as open about that but there's there's latin influence. There's european influence. There's the people who would not who would not immediately classify as american of western european descent sis gender males on and in m._o._s. There's other representation but i don't think there's anybody else who you would consider truly african american or of african descent you know what we would consider <hes> robin frazier as a as a jamaican born person so i think that's a good point. You're right matt chris. Armas is of puerto rican descent and so a person of color but not a person with black heritage. Although <hes> as all of our listeners certainly no in puerto rico the dominican republican haiti had a significant number of <hes> african slaves so you do not know what the bloodlines bloodlines are if twenty three and me or ancestry dot com like the sponsor this podcast we would certainly take their money and doors their products so we can determine the acidy and or national origins of all coaches in major league soccer so yes and week out at this time we will neither confirm nor deny that that sponsorship money will go to beer and or purchasing of dying english clubs. I guess one of the thing thing that i kind of want to talk about mark that i kind of i want to temper expectations or give our listeners the right mindset for how they're going to nitpick pick or try to read into roster decisions and then also style of play that robin frazier will be using against new york red bulls and i'll say the rest of twenty twenty nine hundred for the sake of completeness he was asked about timing of implementing system greg vanney never really focused on formation in that much so much as what they were doing a style of play standpoint and you know he clearly had two distinct motions one they were in kind of a mid block and then trying to get the ball <unk> out to the forwards and then help everybody else getting involved and then one where they were definitely a possession team with the overlapping fullback. Whether it was stephen beta sure justin moro arm um and then obviously the attacking players that they had in the middle but vani had that team in a couple of different looks in the ways that they could do that they could shift to either of those dears throughout the game in a bunch of different formations and that also do that with players playing a handful of different roles other than knowing that michael bradley is going to be in the the middle have mostly a defensive role. Obviously drew more is going to be a centreback. Obviously a josie algebra had forwarded passenger vehicles going to do sebastian giovinco things because they had a lot of flexibility within that or they could do what they wanted to do in a bunch of different ways and so i think you know if if you know frazier comes out and and suddenly the rapids her in a four three three on saturday against the new york red bulls i would not listeners. Don't jump to the conclusion that they're going to be. You know dutch total football nor to the conclusion that that's going to be the formation frazier is going to be stuck to you know he emphasized that he has ideas for what he wants to do in those teaching moments from style of place ten point but that's gonna take a little bit of experimentation both in terms of formation fitting players into a couple of different roles and i would fully expect for him to do a full audit of the entire roster so don't jump to conclusions if you see coil par get two straight starts for example. I think everybody on this roster is going to get an opportunity to play and show what they can give to the club and you know right now for frazier. It's more about testing a few things out pushing a couple of guys seeing what they can and can't do and really just giving everybody an opportunity need to collect as much data as he can in a bunch of different ways and then he was also asked about you know maybe an immediate jump away from you know conor. Arcadi was on a scale of you know. He was probably a two to a three on that pablo to. I'm that pablo to pep scale for example. He said that you know they've done. A lot. Got a good things in the last couple of months. I'm not necessarily going to radically change that as well so it could be a gradual evolution of the rapids of had you know a clear identity. They're going to be in a mid block. It's been mostly a four to three one or a variation of that. Guys have gotten settled into their position. I think frazier is going to massage that and change that slightly slightly to collect some of that data. It's not going to be a radical change whereas apollo restaurant it was a pretty flat for for to kind of guy and then you know if hudson had come in you know he would have immediately jumped jumped three five to i think frazier might have an idea in the distant future for the start of two thousand twenty or for the middle of twenty twenty what he wants to do that doesn't mean that you're going to see the first draft of matter even an integration that looks remotely like that on saturday or the rest of the season and so i think that's something that i think fans fans should definitely look at. I'm looking more at does. Sam vines get played in a different position for example or maybe he massages what carolina costs none because he's moved around a couple all different places or we've talked about the winger core of jonathan lewis andreessen cheeky diego rubio to a lesser extent and sam nicholson. Maybe we'll see them. Do you something slightly different or do it from a different part of the field. I would focus more on those individual cases of say what an individual individual part is doing rather than looking at the machine as a whole and so in that i think it's gonna be interesting for us to tactically breakdown these games that are left in the rest of the season. He's in mark in the same way. I think a lot of rapid fans would be valid and would not be missing much. They completely check out on the rest of the season orders. You know i'm going to support the club but i'm not going to be freaking freaking out about whatever it is that tommy smith was doing or whatever it is that so and so it was doing that was poor. I think that you really covered a lot of that very well. <hes> just i wrote a lot of that in an article that i posted for soccer rabbi <hes> just like what what should we take out of <hes> robin frazier razer. We're gonna see tinkering. We get to see a little bit of maybe how he'll lineup next year. Louis shouldn't take much from it and we get to see him additional players. You covered it really well not on uh-huh. I guess maybe track back to an ask h. T. h. Shell we had from last week mark where we were asked. There was a listener who asked about clint clint irwin for two thousand twenty vis-a-vis maybe if the club had held onto zach mcmath. I wanna presume with clint irwin playing in toronto f._c. Being a part of a supporter shield eighteen losing in p._k.'s in the final two seattle that one year that maybe there's a report where maybe we're thinking clinton. Irwin's got the inside track to the starting writing job post him howard so we covered it a little bit a couple of weeks ago about whether matter i believe that irwin is positioned to be the head had goalkeeper. I think the short answer is is yes <hes> but i don't think it's a slam dunk. I do think it's very unlikely colorado will go out and spend bend designated player money on try their goalkeeper that just seemed to have been <hes> questionable idea upfront and i think they they know they can get better value at dp for a number tan or striker or winger that said <hes>. It's a really good question action as the weather clint irwin is good enough <hes> to be a starting goalkeeper or whether there isn't somebody else's backup somewhere in the league <hes> who who might be a better one a great a great interesting thing that you know this is anecdotal but i'm interested to see what you think about this kind of idea. <hes> jeff agnello ella won the game one the starting <hes> role at goalkeeper for portland timbers out of camp and then <hes> played his way out out of it and basically they started a try. <hes> steve clarke deposition further timbers and steve clarke statistically has proven to be one of the best goalkeepers in the league by his expected goals numbers. <hes> an atmel is now on the bench now. Clearly portland thought ell was the better goalkeeper but there's a lot of ah those in the league where the day start with one guy in the second guy turns out to be better. Spencer richey has been on the outs for cincinnati. I rate him very highly <hes> and then there's a couple of other <hes> guys i think greg greg ranjit singh who was with louisville city last year and is now on on the bench. I think in orlando <hes> how it can backing up brag zahn probably should get a shout it another opportunity for him. Yeah there are a lot of backups in alaska are really good and have never really gotten a chance to win the game out of camp and in cleaner when has been starting goalkeeper in this league on on two different occasions once the rapids monthly toronto and he was superseded on both occasions so long winded answer. The short answer is i think lavar darwin is <hes> is going to have a fifty fifty chance at the head at the keeper's spot. I do not think it's guaranteed for him. <hes> maybe the last thing thing that i wanna talk about. Mark obviously had that tweet when berhalter was asked about other coaches that maybe he emulates and you kinda ran with that in your article on your website this week become your thoughts on <hes> robin frazier looking up to a bruce marina a gregg berhalter greg vanney and maybe could we see shades of what they do in how robin frazier approaches managing the rapids going forward yeah. We'll we'll vanney played. You know the poor man's version of manchester city which is is you wanna you wanna control the ball. You wanna make passes. Spacings really important speed of play is really important <hes> but you know accurate through balls <hes> really cutting devastating passing <hes> and using two men and three men combinations. I think it was is was what vani did in toronto before this season before he started a shift in the last year or two to <hes> you know a little bit more of a wing attack and thinking thinking of the five <hes> the five-man back line <hes> and then you know what you got with berhalter with <hes> columbus was a lot different right eight berhalter used primarily for two three one he was really interested in those deep lying defensive midfielders <hes> switching the point of attack <hes> and being able to play diagonal balls and also kind of <hes> playing short short long you know kind of this this pink pink and then bomb <hes> sat up with the wingers and it really works very very well and abroad to the other thing of all used to do <hes> with columbus lavas was he had kind of specific trapped high press that worked very very well so the interesting thing it from the press conference matt that you mentioned is that they played various that he mentioned three coaches that he wanted to emulate and to kinda different but both of them were fairly attacking <hes> so it should be really interesting to see what he rolls out yeah. No i think the one thing that i'll say and you know he referred bruce arena more from a management standpoint. I think from a tactical tactical standpoint or i see what berhalter dade with columbus crew what he's trying to do with the national team with greg vanney. He's done which ron oh of c- and i want to try to do that. I would not expect specs the rapids to come out in the four four t y midfield formation you know unless the rapids are going going into a time machine and trying to get janine marcelo service for example <hes> but both of those you know. All three of those coaches can be extremely pragmatic. All three have the view of of love you know i'm trying to win the war and sometimes that means approaching every single battle from a different way and both of them clearly have ways in which you know berhalter's talked about this in some of his bigger interviews he's done since taking the national team job of there are ways for us to disrupt the opponent and put us in an advantage advent advant advantageous situation and we can do that with the ball and we can do that without the ball and we can do that in a couple of different ways and a couple of different shapes. No we're hudson was so maybe stuck on the three five two and then realized things had to change and maybe it was long-term develops. Maybe it was a second option. Maybe it was an epiphany. The fourfourtwo diamond it seems like frazier is going to have much more of an idea about what to do on the defensive side and there are ways for the rapids to go on a third road game in eight days and a half to play in the rain at new england on turf and played defensive stocker d defensive soccer and be affective and control the game and make a new england revolution play there. I was just using that as an example folks. I wasn't specifically picking club that bruce arena formerly the league currently manages but i'm just saying that you know having that pragmatic approach ways that we can dominate the game defensively and dominate the game offensively and do that in a couple of different looks and i think having that clear first year second gear is something that you need analysts at this level unless your a._f._c. for example the allegations he can do do that certainly atlanta united to that last year. Yes they had the extremely dynamic passing attack but then they said we're going to be defensively stout. We are going to ford. We're gonna frustrate the new york red bulls make them play with the ball not look them press and we're going to destroy them on the counter and it worked in the eastern conference finals atlanta united figured out how to have a second year to complement what they were doing well to fit the individual opponent and the overall approach of not winning the battle but winning the war and as billy bean alternately ultimately winning the final game of the season and robin fraser seems to be extremely articulate and extremely thorough and well thought out in that approach and for me me that's a really good sign of things to come because of what we've seen that greg vanney he's been able to do with his teams and certainly the value that gregg berhalter got out of the columbus crew and a lot of the potential that he has with the young crew <hes> the young group with the united states men's national team all right so we get out of here mark i ah all the things i know how to say in this language alright listeners we are going to we'll do the rundown but then we're going to close out with audio that i got from this <hes> <hes> from today at training at the presser i we're going to do my individuals sit down with pork smith acting about <hes> roster tactics and then also with clint irwin former former toronto f._c. Player who's the one guy who has a lot of really good experience with robin fraser so you might get a little bit more insight into who robin frazier was it toronto and maybe what clinton was looking for him. In colorado and indicates listeners follow us on twitter at soccer underscore rabbi at l. w. s. map pollard at rabbits ninety. Six podcasts for the podcast has use use the hashtag ask h._d._a. Shell send us any of your questions. We'll try and answer them on the show <hes> if you're not on twitter or if you've got something that's longer than two hundred eighty characters feel free to email us us at rapids ninety six podcasts at g. Com patriot dot com backslash rapids ninety six podcasts. If you want to help us fund buying bolton wanderers and denver post backslash lash denver post dotcom backsta with that here's poor smith and here's clinton irwin. We'll see you next week. Folks been pretty open about about wanting to bring in a number nine and number dp roster spots. How are you evaluating that given. Maybe what some of the needs rob might be looking for specifically. I think it's really important jordan that we have cleared sense of what we're looking to do in this off season you know we want to be more talking more entertaining team. I believe we're now up to the seventh goal scorers in the league this year so there's no that's all we can doing very well. You just have to look at eleven goals. Diego's up to nine eight in the last eleven. I think is so there's no date but putting the ball in that hasn't been a problem. I still feel like we lack a lot of conversations robbing a bike this this is all that creative spark and the italian firm. We still don't have thought attacking midfielder created fielder that can really open. Thank you bob away just not able to find the open so that will certainly be accused opponents. I think we're always looking to the future as well. The idea of a ninety next nine and we're going to move on from that. I was three years ago and then mara bar exam and you have to be able to adopt to these things. There's no that client very well. We would expect talk being double digits by the end of the year. Which is you know. It's a big thing for hasn't happened. Since today's maintain good shot at beating the record terms of what omar connery was doing today's ten so that's been huge positive and there's no i think we feel like we need to make sure it is we continue to build a young team that the core of the team is so strong experience there. I do think we need to bring in another athletic center bach and let's open ravenous. Albany's is clear on his want to push a little bit further four than we need to make sure we've got sandbox. You can defend in space as that's going to be important. I think defensive-minded number six six you know we've got some credit be gifted midfielders jack price costing and about the time the club and do some good young players coming through again. It's always let's always focused. Make sure we balance that. We've got depth charts that are that are strong and ultimately suing the coach what what he needs there. An execute has and then biggest robin on your analytics and sports science has been a big deal for you. How much is he envisioned without without or where does he want to take that yeah. I think the work the frontier and matt furman doing on the analytic side is absolutely tremendous. It really is they've take raised it a level. I think over the next twelve to eighteen months. We're gonna fix a massive strikes just in what we're covering high work covering it. It's some really really true stuff. One of the other folks that we think does it exceptionally well. Toronto and you know we were very good relationship with our guys. We did speak their analytics guys. It turns out that robin very heavily involved in that side can actor. I strongly with them. He's a big believer in as we've always said one components in hates not the whole thing will never sign a player based on loan with looking at the analytics. Tell us. I think it informs us. Allies us to make decisions. I don't think so things that are happening. There are very very important. Uh-huh robbins obviously gonna come in and play a key part on his wease south. He's gonna have some ideas that we let them. We're excited about it you. I just feel like it's a great thing all right and vice versa all your first reactions to robin the frazier being announced as the head mandatory excited with his building on the field along the way he communicates with the best best out of players inside excited to see what was his. What was he like as an assistant manager over some of his roles. When you guys were in toronto together <hes> <hes> you know robin. He's he's very involved with <hes>. I i think in terms of this is that worked with you know he was. He was nearly so you know he was involved in everything day to day. <hes> took a lot of the opposition scouting <hes> video just sort of preparation to week. Vastly-experienced has been a lot of different teams. It's been a head coach. Confidence methods cases agree higher for us <hes> uh-huh and then obviously in toronto and more involved with the goalkeeper coach. What was your personal relationship with robin light. It was good. I get along well with robin. I think like you said you know i wasn't a field player so i wasn't in every in every conversation with them but <hes> you know whenever we would communicate a felt like honest and gave his <hes> give his opinion and most of the time i had a lot of evidence behind it and <hes> just clarity of thought and he really sees the game in a good way so i'm excited to see him as a head coach and i think already today you can. She does taking on his ideas and trying to execute on the field. <hes> give me one story about hand may be off the training ground outside of practice or something about robin frazier the person then as opposed to the former soccer player soccer coach yeah. I think you know i don't want to have anything especially <hes> funnier out of the ordinary i i think the thing that i think about is that he cares for the players and he wants to make people better and i think he's always looking for ways to take is aside and maybe give them a tip here. Are there at least as an assistant and <hes> you know he was. He uses to watch success. I guess the one story i remember. I guess you know we're in the champions. League final against called america <hes> and i was on the bench so a lot of times i was able to kind of fill out you know what the coaches were thinking in terms of their substitutions and tactics and stuff and <hes> you. I just remembered greg look into robin. <hes> you know a lot of times in his thoughts and i think when you see that sort of relationships between head coach an assistant coach it means that one they respect each other and to <hes> that he values what can bring to the table and i think that's important it shows that is respected around the league and he's respected by the people that he works with. How do you expect things to change on the field that he likes to play a possession style kind of puts the owners you just in terms of how robin play he wants direction as much ram actions but he wants to send axons set up the two that we have two quite a predictable manner with our beat. Analysts analysts definitely a unique. What does it mean to you guys having a manager. That's one both as a player and insists multiple times now leading this team. That's important. Thanks the sir uh mm-hmm.
WKPWP - Wildcard Tuesday - AEW Fyter Fest vs. NXT Great American Bash preview with Keller, Lindberg, Krol, plus 10 Yrs Ago Flagship w/Powell
"Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling. PODCASTS will come join me out L. over in the press paradise at Pino, Torch VIP, as we BOSC on the bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the great matches, and chose from around the world be at us, Japan, Europe or Mexico. There's always a place of restaurants passed in paradise to and we've done fun. Historical shows such as the we love our series, celebrating glorious career of Juche Thunder like. I was there when shows where guests will join me to talk about a classic bent that they were in attendance for we love variety, and you can expect lots of at the Pro Paradise detailed torch. VIP subscription information on a list of all the VIP. Benefits is available at Peterborough torch. VIP Info Dot Com, and yes, all AP Alcazar compatible with popular podcast APPs on iphone and android devices, or you can stream them directly from our AD. FREE VIP mobile site C in the paradise. Now pw, torch and spreaker bring you the wade, Keller pro wrestling podcast. We've got a double header edition of the way Taylor. Progressing podcast. It's wild Tuesday here on June thirtieth two thousand twenty first up is a hour plus roundtable discussion looking at the next two Wednesday night battles between eighty w and t with a fighter fest versus great American Bash Mega shows that are split over the next two weeks. Kroll Nate Lindbergh join me for that round table. Discussion recorded earlier today and then after. After that ten years ago, flashback, a Tuesday flagship with Jason, Paul, from pro wrestling dot, net, joining me to talk about less nervous Shane Carwin. And UFC, the mystery G. M. Our thoughts on that the Daniel Bryan firing the nexus angle, and so much more with live callers, so a doubleheader here on a wildcard Tuesday on the Keller pressing podcast. Let's get to the next versus eighty. W Roundtable I here we go. All right so sometime. In the last seven days this week's next program turned into the Great. American bash with an t branding it as a two week event and Also saying limited commercial interruptions got an email from somebody who said they think this is one of the reasons that they should. That people should look negatively on annex. T going head to head with a e W that feels. Predatory that? It's part of WWE's history. Being Predatory. That's sad and we might get to that email later. That said this makes it a little bit more exciting in the sense, that fighter fest, the next two weeks ray W that they've been hyping for a long time. It feels kind of a battle of super shows. It's like nineteen eighty seven survivor series versus. Stark aid or the royal rumble against among cow, stampede, or clash of champions and get wrestlemainia except. Live Cable Two thousand twenty standpoint, so I wanNA throw both you guys. Not at once that would be bad but get your take on. How you feel about the competitive aspect of how? An aws going at each other and just kind of wear your. Where your sentiment lies in terms of not necessarily rooting for one brand or the other, but whether you think the competition when when one group steps up and pushes back hard, if you think that makes a product better, or do you think that it's ultimately a detriment to either fans or one or both companies? I mean I think the consumers benefit right. The wrestling audience benefits that they're pushing each other, and you have a choice. I mean I would. Guess. There's a significant percentage of people who back between both shows are counted. The ratings depending on when they are grabbed for the by the ratings meter I watch you live every Wednesday and it soon as it's over, I go right to the DVR and I watch an x t I watch all of the W, because it's live, and I have a greater interest, but n exceeds usually a pretty strong show, and has some good matches, and and is generally entertaining, and so we are all benefiting from this I, you know. She media's The wwe being predatory I mean the reading. Somebody's coming in trying to steal their share of the pie and so naturally they are fighting back with their own show. That's life. That's capitalism and. I N T T was Lou was down on the ratings for so long and Awa had a pretty good first. Five months of the year in now and has built a little momentum here, so we all we all benefit when they're both putting on top notch, matches and cards and nate your thoughts on. Kind of counterpunch two fighter fast they had some ratings. They have some viewership momentum with one of the best viewed shows last week in a w hitting a low point. Is that momentum or was it just you? A few things not go their way last week. The semi of auditing suspended Jon Moxley withdrawing from his match, and it just was sort of meant to be a show almost building up in previewing these next two weeks, and they've built up fighter fest for so long that. Sort of at the last second trying to brand the event as as a two week spectacular might not have the effect that it would have had. They planned ahead more, and so it's ultimately not that big of a deal. What what? What are your thoughts on? So. It's it's funny because I actually didn't even realize that they were branding this the great American Bash until we were just a few minutes into actually recording this past episode of POW Tuck Sanity when Kelly brought it up. They brought it up during a very small. Sorry very short commercial segment I can't remember was going into commercial coming back, but it was a very small commercial segment that I must have glossed over just in skipping commercials So you know they haven't really done a great job? In terms of promoting that you know other than I think really all they did. Was that They've also obviously done some social media stuff. I brought it up on raw. If I'm not mistaken. I think has the most impact I think. People who don't really green next. He will see that and go. Oh, something special happening. This is a week. When I sometimes I watch sometimes, I don't. This is a weak. I Better Watch. This seems like they're probably putting their best foot forward. That's that's where I think the impact might come in more than anything else. They've done including social media. No absolutely absolutely and especially to the fact that they are using the name, the great American Bash for for a lot of wrestling fans. I mean that there's a lot of people that are in my age group. I'm thirty two I started watching wrestling right at the height of the attitude era. So the Great Bash is definitely something that I do associate with WCW. Being! Arrested ww still a thing, but I also see with with some of the ruthless ruthless aggression era, W E and things like that, so it's certainly a brand that I think we definitely get a a response and potentially papa ratings boost You know for four annex, T as far as it being predatory I've I I gotta say yes, but in a very similar way that that Eric just put it in. Yes, but. CAPITALISM IS BUSINESS You've got somebody that's kind of trying to. Cut into your slice of the Pie and I mean it it. Certainly, league makes sense. Does it. Leave a little bit of a bad taste so I'm sure but at the same time. I, mean you. Can you really blame them? You know they they. They need to obviously do some counter programming to make sure they keep their ratings up. They keep You know NBC happy so You know it's. It's kind of a little bit of a split. Answer there, but I i. definitely do think there's there is a little bit of predatory practices there but at the same time it's it's capitalism's business and you know I I feel like it's certainly something that they businesswise should've should've done in pursuit. Do you think calling it. The Great American Bash is meant to be personal when it comes to cody or do you think it's hey, it's July and that's when the bash took place, and they want to pop a rating and an increase viewership, and that that's a brand that they own the rights to so more power to him. Just coincidental that happens going ahead with the company that cody's. VP. Didn't cody try and He fought trademarks for a few of of the. Concepts that his father came back in the eighties. Is that right the great American Bash One? I don't remember. Was! It was actually. I did a little bit of research before jumping up on. This is backing out of back in March. He was trying trademark the great American Bash and bashes beach. I think we have our answer. Yes Yes it's it's personal ed at Cody I just. Thought would be. Waiting I are older than dirt, and and we were teenagers. Probably when the great American Bash was a thing on on Nwea, slash world championship wrestling TV. And so to the extent that people are aging older are attracted to the brand name well. I guess that's just the next T. The average age of their viewers up to around social security age I remember getting the Wrestling Forum newsletter in the mail before starting the torch and the most exciting thing. In. The summer of Eighty, seven, nine, hundred, Eighty, seven, was opening up in key, finding the results of the great American Bash Tour at the open air stadiums, and although opponents clare was facing and all the lineups that was different and it was. It was a super cool. I love the dusty concept and I. do think it's a personal. Let me. Let me pause and introduce ourselves formerly. This is the Wade Keller pro wrestling podcast start special. Tuesday wildcard edition on June, thirtieth, two, thousand, twenty, and I'm joined today four Special Roundtable preview of yes fighter fest in America Bash had battle the next to Wednesday nights an xt versus aws network, T. and T., cody versus triple H. Tony Kahn versus Vince McMahon. However, you want to frame it. IT IS A. Big To two weeks coming up and joined by former pro wrestling torch columnist, going back thirty years thirty thirty. No, not quite thirty years now. What? What was what years were you? Probably Ninety Ninety one. That's what I'm. That's exactly what I was GONNA. Guess so we're thirty years. Thirty years ago, course columnist aircrew, who was a lapsed fan, and as he's said on previous roundtables where he's done a great job joining our conversation here with his long. Old is dirt perspective on professional wrestling. Looking at eighty w arise arising here as a product that has recaptured his attention after being elapse fan so why Eric Welcome back to the show. You are now a working journalist in Chicago covering heavy subjects, and it's good to have you on here to escape a little bit. Would absolutely and Lindbergh who is a familiar voice for those of you who listen to the WTO, toxin x t show show that draws every Thursday if you're not listening and your annexed Fan, you're missing out on not only the best podcast. But the best podcast that could possibly be done on annex. T so if you don't believe me, go listen and you'll. You'll not and go. Yeah, yeah, this is really good. These guys know what they're talking about. There's good chemistry. This is a good podcast. Really good podcast. It's a great podcast. Nate welcome to our roundtable discussion here. Array will hey. Thanks and thank you for that that introduction. We certainly try to do a do a good job. On PDF detox, Synnex T, can you guys can join the conversation with us? We actually go live about thirty minutes or so after annex, t goes off the air so you can, you can call in. A five one, five, six, five, nine, three, four five. If I'm remembering correctly off the top of my head, or you or you can email us at POW Bwi torch NFC DOT COM and you. We'll get your emails. Get your calls. And talk about talk about this week in Annex. T that's great to bring up because the show. The final version of show drops on Thursday. And that's almost people listen, but join them live the more the merrier on their livestream as mentioned starting a half hour afterwards, Kelly wells in his report at POW Torch Dot Com covers annex. t live on your network and he has a direct link to the show with all the information. Nature's gave too so that might be an easier way. To. GO TO TORCH DOT COM on Wednesday nights, and after an extensive settling and join them a half hour afterwards. Okay. Let's Let's get back to our conversation here. I want to get your perspectives. We brought on Eric and nate because Eric watches the w live. That's the brand that got him the promotion that got him back into wrestling. Mate covers X. T four W torch Shaw Peterloo. Torch Dot Com with Mrs. Column and Co hosting the POW Tuxedo. So they specialize in with each brand, but they both watch enough for the brand to give well I'll. I'll say with confidence intelligent analysis also brand. Despite their specialty in their first priority being a different brands. Let's look at the the lineups for both shows because on night one. Aws Delivering as their headline match. Cody Rhodes against Jake Hager TNT title on the line. And there are also the CO headlining essentially with the crew sheet of versus Penelope Ford for the Awa Women's title plus Kenya Meghan Hangman Page big names in that tasty match. Defending their titles titles against best friends. Chuck Taylor and Trent. Not Not an a level team, but a strong a strong enough third from the top match plus jungle, Boeing, Lucia source against 'em, Jeff wardlow and private party against Santana. Ortiz rounding out the announced matches. Meanwhile eight. T is delivering a women's championship match against Sasha. I should say a non title match Yoshinaga and Sasha Banks Plus Dakota Candice low-rate. teagan knocks a at a four way with number one contender ship at stake for the women's title, Dexter loomis versus Roderick strong in a strap match after Roderick strong hilariously. Could not stay in the ring for five seconds with Dexter last week because he's too spooked by him so now they'll be attached with a strap and. Rear Ripley against both Robert Stone. Aware, if Ripley doesn't win, she has to join the Robert Stone brand, and then the I guess opener so to speak. Timothy Thatcher against only Larkin. Whenever we both of those lineups NATO you first. What do you think of what annex is presenting? Does it feel like? A worthwhile enough. Five matches to put out there and brand as the great American. Bash is the start of this Wednesday night battle. As far as I am concerned, I'm going to say yes. The is is the haven't really done a great job promoting it, but as far as the card that they put together in my opinion I'm really looking forward to this card. I'm going to start off with the opener, o.`Neil Organ and Timothy Thatcher so one of the things that I've talked about on St Petersburg talks in the past With only Larkin, he is actually he's one of the people that have. The the best match that I've ever seen live took place up here in up here in New England, and it was only working versus to Moscow. CIAMPA in next t live live event he is so incredibly underrated. In my opinion, it was that matches just phenomenal and off the hook. He just yet so anyway. I could go on owner. I'm not GonNa do that, but Timothy Thatcher also in my opinion I think he's a little bit underrated. He came in. You started to do some of that stuff with the bribe. The bruiser weights police have done but they have a very similar wrestling style, very strong style. So I'm really looking forward to that I. Don't know if there's a lot of hype for it. I don't know if the the general fan would necessarily. Be Looking forward to it, but if you're GONNA if you're looking for technical match, I'm I'm willing to bet that's going to be it. Ripley and rewritten Eliya this. This is probably the coldest I've been for a real rippling match a little bit I'm not GonNa lie, but the whole Robert Stone. Angle is has been very intriguing to me, so I'm I am kind of looking forward to this to see really what happens with the Leah and Robert Stone and potentially Ripley because he Robert Stone has been trying to recruit Ripley though fatal four way elimination match. Excuse me I. Think is I. Mean you look at the the talented in there, you? Knocks Candice Lorraine Dakota. Chi- four of the the top female talent in xt. As far as I'm concerned so that that should be that should be a no brainer right there. dextra Lummus Roderick strong. This as you said has been a hilarious type of an angle. I'm the I think the strap match. Can be a kind of a hard sell for some people it. It's a little bit of a unique. Stipulation, but if I'm not mistaken, it does have connotations to the great American bash cow wasn't it wasn't a giant WNBA fan growing up but I believe it does. So. It definitely fits the theme and it also fits the theme of the angle where you imagine. That makes sense. It's not just because it's the. It's the time of the year, so we have to have. Chamber, where we need to like ads Baxter, it has a backstory where yes, strong can't run away if he's strapped to Dexter and obviously. If you're into that storyline, you want to see strong. Not Be able to run away from Dexter loomis. I think that is a selling point. Oh One hundred I wish they had I wish they had an extra week to sell it on television. Then have strong. Actually. Get the news live. And explain how that match came about and react to it and I don't think they did that last week. I. Don't think they did and I'm not really sure about social media either I I usually will look at Tom Stop and ask him if they did on social media because he's a he's, he's always up on on the next social media stuff, but but yeah, so I am I'm definitely looking for that match. Or like you said it makes sense for the story you know so I'm all for that and then you shriver's Sasha banks I I mean. I feel like that speaks for itself. EEO triple A. on on I believe it was the latest triple h media call. That that he did after takeover he called the assure I the the best best wrestler in. I think actually on best female wrestling the planet and Sasha banks if she's should in my opinion to be in that conversation as well so That's going to be a heck of a match, so I think this is looking up to be a really good guard. So Eric from the aws things. We look at Cody Jake sheet up penelope. Ford the take title match. Juggle by Lucia source, empty F- wardlow private party Santana Ortiz semi semi random. Match their. How does that stack up to what natures ran down on annex, T and just in general for the W. Audience. If there was no fighter, fest name attached to it, and it was just a regular lineup, does this would you think wow, this is a way stronger than average lineup? Standard lineup, maybe a little above a little below average, but in the ranger standard with a special name on top of it with special branding. Yeah I mean I think it's like the better than your average car I guess the difference between the two is Awa has been building to this show for weeks now and I think an X. T. Chide of thought. The card together a little more quickly. Next is normally excellent at building to. Their reviews, so the given time they could have done a little bit of job, but yeah eight abuse A. Really good show night the night one night two taken together. It's a really stellar lineup to get on Free TV annex. T only has one match for nights, too, but it is the. Match I think everybody's looking forward to watch both shows the most kon-tiki. And maybe the only one on either card that where we might see a title change Eighty W I. You know I. Think Omega Page versus the Best Friends I. Don't think anybody thinks that the best friends are going to win the gotten to push this year because they weren't around during the pandemic when others weren't, but they're still. Comedy Ish. You know they're not pulling comedy. More comedy than not most of the time. Cody and Jake, Hager. it's just a better opponent than normal for cody to take and defend his TV title I think jake there to lose They had usual strong build up, though as usually do for. Cody Rhodes matches the. wrote the road to that. They posted on Youtube on Monday. was really well done stuff in? It was the focus of the road to segment about twelve minutes long behalf behalf. And they had they had promo last week. Show where a w got his clock cleaned by an xt, but to the tune of one hundred fifty thousand viewers. The Arn Anderson and then Cody Promo was great and Jake Hager and his natural. He'll wife. Did a good job So! Before that when she and Ford? That's just challenge the week their benches thin right now because of Covid, keeping the Japanese wrestlers out and Chris Stat lender and Baker out with knee injuries and Penelope Ford is obviously not ready to carry the women's division. She is their best options. The property to bells on her but You know it'll be an okay match credit party versus in Tannen Ortiz. We just saw on TV within the last month maybe. And To. The finish that I can't tell is the jungle boy which Soroush someday s wardlow. Who Jobs here because? Jungle boy recently lost and J F on the last pay per view in May and Lucia source just lost award low. last week on TV so in a better than expected lumberjack match, so NJ, F can't lose if he's going to be a title shot against Moxley at all out. and. Dill thinks you went with your source of Elise twice. He gets his win back I. Don't know. I'm. Pretty pretty better than better than average age w lineup in the branding probably Helps them the viewership losses I would think. Yeah Yeah I mean. This doesn't feel like a battle of two pay per view. This isn't takeover against all allow or all in or I mean it feels like it's the next level down, but it's still competitive, and when we look at I had I talked about this on the way, Taylor hotline for VIP members Sunday night the minute by minute and quarter our numbers for aws St last week. They were not that far off at different times during the show. Let's see twenty. Nine minutes into the show, a seven hundred forty, one thousand viewers registered annexed seven hundred, forty four, so in the next minute, or they were one thousand apart also and the minute after that That commercial because Awa jumped to a big lead eight, a one to six, hundred, twenty, thousand, so I say that to set up for drama sake the fourth quarter hour. The fourth quarter hour ended with eight hundred fifty two thousand viewers for an xt, five, hundred, Fifty, seven, thousand eighty W. As the average average viewership during the final fifteen minutes. That's a big migration away from. Eighty W over to annex t essentially a three hundred thousand viewer lead after they were tied in the first quarter hour. So my question to both of you is if we take into account, the normal way that aws pace their shows. We figure and I don't know if TNT is going to counter this. With W we figure, an xt might have an advantage with limited commercial interruptions, because those commercial breaks are a big moment. That's we learned to the Monday night wars to that's what a lot of people flipped the channel to see what's going on. With showed you think has the better chance if they start off relatively equal again. In that first quarter hour, which showed you think has the best chance to pull ahead, and which one and why Erica go to you first on this one. A W. Because Annex team lineup while I think they're going to be. Really good matches on the annexed show I'm not sure a lot of outside of us. Dry and Sasha banks non title I don't know how many of them are going to be. Necessarily ratings draws or must seize. whereas. eighty is putting out a little bit more putting a little more skin in the game. Burning matches than Amex. He appears to be The Adam Cole keithly match was. Some joy I, I would say and exte- will probably have a pretty big gap by the end at the end of the show, but it's not so I would think it, we one. You're probably going to see E W. Stop the bleeding I. think ratings wise. Aloha torch fateful. This is Kelly. Wells host of PWG talks and t every Thursday. You can hear me and my gang of idiots. Tom Style from share thoughts from the live tapings and torch recap limbered as well as a rotating cast of guests cover the matches and events in Annex. T live on USA. Network Search Bwi. Torching Apple podcasts or your podcast APP to subscribe or listen on demand and see the entire w torch daily cast schedule at you. Torch Daily Pass, DOT, com, cheers! Idea last. Wednesday is w didn't have heard this people in aws. It wasn't a show with a lot of star power. They had Moxley Vignette, but they had to Hepburn Cajun. The squash match marks that could be there or the and then. Hey man page and Kenny and cody defending the title. They just didn't have the star power. Nope, it's when I hear that I'm like yeah, but you headline with Chris Jericho against a supposedly hot rising. Character going from novelty act to perhaps more than that an orange cassidy and they just got their lunch handed to them. docker yeah yeah. So. When I look at this lineup. Yeah Jay got to be experience. and has some name value their titles on the line. They've been building this up for weeks. They made for those who watched. They got to see in early in the show. A lot of people did the Cody Hager press conference. For better for worse. That was a way to try to make it feel like a bigger deal. I shouldn't say for better for us. In terms of how executed for better for worse, but just having a press conference in it of itself, tells viewers. This is a big deal. We're treating it as a big deal. You might want to consider it is a big deal. And then hanged page and Kenny that the. Vignette to build that up. But yeah, it's not penelope it isn't this red hot act WHO's going after Sam w title or anything like that? So when you look at both lineups, it isn't again. They're wrestlemanias going head to head. Innate. How do you think teed did here if their goal is to get another win over eighty, W in terms of distributing these matches, and I'm assuming they're going to build a sheriff. Sasha at the end, but I well. It's a separate topic, so ignore. I'm saying this, but remind me in a minute. Should they have sausage Riaan? First so that they get the big audience, upfront and use that audience use that time with that captive audience to really promote. LOOMIS and strong or One or the four way match, or whatever like promote something else, so we'll get to that in a minute I. Your general thoughts on who think has the ratings advantage as the two hours progress. So, it's it's. I'll be honest. I'm not one hundred percent sure I I in a way. I kind of lean towards e w just simply because historically they've had the the edge in the ratings, so I'm I'm kind of leaning that way, and I think really. That's my biggest. My biggest reason why however between both cards I think it could really go either way. I personally feel like To for me, I would personally rather watch. idrive versus Sasha Banks in main events spot opposite. instead of the the cody Rhodes TNT defense, title defence in that same timeslot I and obviously we'll talk about that in a little bit, but if if I was given the option which one I want to watch right now in this your fifteen twenty minutes segment. That's personally the one that I would watch just huge fan of Yo huge fan of Sasha have been for for a long time. Especially Sasha there we when she first made her debut in NFC. So. I guess. I sale that to to kind of come back to I. Think might be W. that kind of sneaks out in the ratings. I think last week it it kind of was the fact that eighty. You did I just actually finished watching dynamite the a little bit before we jumped on this call. But. It it did certainly feel like it was kind of a show building to these other. These two fighter fest shows, whereas in the main event of of of annexed t you had that. Triple threats the triple threat. Title Match for the next title between Finn Baylor. footballer Baylor Keithly and. Gargano so you know I'm I'm wondering? If maybe that is kind of what switched it over? switched over there, but at the same time to with Chris Jericho. And Orange Cassidy in that same timeslot especially Chris Jericho a little surprised at it. It was that big of a big of a loss but Yeah so with all that rambling aside I think I think the answer to that question is probably going to be a W, but by a small lead. Yeah Yeah and I think one one you know w could start off with larger audience. because. They typically have a larger audience. USA INEX-. T last week benefited greatly from a much stronger in with a law and order episode compared to what was on TNT. Is that a weird gigantic lead at the start of the show? But like I said once it got rolling, they basically started from an equal position. I'm real curious to see minute by minutes on Wednesday and just strategically what each show does now on twitter earlier today I asked. Are you planning to watch fighter fest? Great American Bash. or a mix of both and the options was. Eighty fighter most or all or Most or all or flipping between both or watching both, but one on delay so just sort of back to back like Eric. You do for the most part. And forty four percents. They're gonNA. Watch fighter, twenty percent and actually great American bash now we'll find out how typical AP W torch twitter followers to the general audience. We definitely have I think with our demographics. Propensity to lean a little heavily more heavily towards Awa, when our polls, then the mainstream general public does. But. That's a big lead. That's more than two to one that does sway me to think. AWS got a win in their hand at the start. If they play the rest of their hand, if they played the head well for the rest of the two hours, twelve percents that they're gonNA, flip between both and twenty four percent that said that watch both won. I won on delay. So it's possible in there that twenty four percent who say they're going to watch both but one hundred. Aren't you? GonNa Watch T I by a wider margin for whatever reason and that will close the gap a little bit. Even though ultimately both shows will be viewed so I throw that out there to say. Without others even semi scientific indications looking at the ratings history, I think w ends up with. It's. They end up in a position to keep the viewers if they do a good job with their show. We're about to go to another commercial break. Why are you listening to commercial breaks? Why deal with these interruptions when you can become a VIP member, support the weight Keller, pro wrestling podcast way Taylor progressing post shows the Peterlee. Torch daily casts in the entire team and everything that we do and get a ton of return for your membership by becoming VIP member go to P, W torch V., Ip Info. Dot Com for full details, thirty plus years of Archives of podcasts. Retro Radio Shows Over Sixteen. Sixteen hundred back issues. The Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter fascinating march through our coverage of wrestling history and so much more including ad free versions of the week podcast week post shows npws daily and several exclusive VIP podcast just about every day dozens of VIP exclusive podcast. You're not hearing because you're not be members. Go VIP PW, Torch VIP INFO DOT COM subscribe to our podcast feed and listen in a streamlined way with no interruptions to all of our podcasts again. That's torch VIP. INFO DOT COM. Era Strategically. Is there anything that you would think would be good advice to pass onto a w in terms of match order. And how they present the show to try to. Should certain matches go longer than others or should be super short based on what they're putting out there? How do you what would eighty w? W Strategy Strategy be or a good strategy to try to hold hold the viewers if they start off with that lead and also win people over as the show goes on. Well of the five announced matches Jungle Boy Lucia. Soroush versus gay and ward lows seem to be seem to fit the first match. Grab the viewer kind of thing. given the relative popularity of the Dress Express and M J F being the classic he'll you love to hate with his henchmen I'd I'd start with that. Which means assuming cody versus Jay is the main event. you'd probably have to put Omega versus best friend at the start of the end of our one of our two and then sprinkle in the other two matches. Around them. I say to US Chris Jericho on color commentary. I don't know if they've announced that they're doing that yet. They haven't been shy about doing that. That adds you know he's got experience doing that. That adds some star power to eighty W. where people might you know? Viewers might think Oh. I don't want to miss anything that Chris. Jericho says. Oh and I just looked at. I just looked it up Chris. Jericho will be on color commentary, and they are emphasizing that on twitter so. I figured they would do that, but I hadn't seen that. confirmed, but the other thing I would say is I, think they start with Kenny and hangman page against best because you don't. There's not a back story that you want to tell. And Kenny and page are big name acts for them. You know they feel like. It's titles on the line. Titles are at stake. They're the champs they've got. I think those are the biggest names among the four teams we're talking about the two pairs of teams and I think with mgm F that has more ratings. I think that has more ratings off traction event after Promo, and if he can come out in that first hour and throw some kind of fit or just do what he does, and that builds up the match kicking off the second hour, and then you go to one of the two women's matches to pad. In between the three men's matches, and then of course end with Cody Jake. That's my thinking. And that's what I think is best, but I also think is what they'll do. Because Kenny and page has sort of as the opening match, guys on dynamite like they hope Tony Kahn, and I'd like to kick it off with a really good world class wrestling match often. It's tag teams. Any any pushback on that air before. Throw to nate on the same topic I. Think Your Lineup Works Better. I guess I were if I may. W I worry about the the top of the hour and certain natural pivot point where you have a commercial break and. miss the start of the second hour. You're thinking about flipping over I. Are Doing Jungle Boy Draft Express against to wardle? Art Isn't enough to keep viewers. Tuned in and Tanaka, flip I don't know the answer to that, but I mean those. Two options right. Going the net one of those ways, right it's it's. It's I can't be anything else being strong enough Intimate about they could do cody jake at the start. And just figure that's one that's got the most high the highest stakes, and do some sort of big angle, or have confidence in Promos to me again like if you utilize your two hours or your hour and a half leading into the event, utilize to make people care more about the main event and I just don't think there's a lot you can do with Kenny and page in the best friends to make people care more about that match. I think what people care about is seeing those to have a good match, so you opened with that cold with take titles at stake, and not only to build up the tag I have an MGM, talk and work his magic. But then you have. Cody and Jake. Do their thing. including. Jericho as a spokesman for Inner Circle I think you can make people care more about that match by not being unconventional an opening with it, so that's why cody j just does make sense to build towards and main event with. So, nate your thoughts on on the aws side of things. If you have any thoughts on match order as a more casual Awa follower viewer, what would hold your attention taking into account the lineup and what can I just discuss? So I think. Well there's certainly a part of me. That always thinks that the most important title on the card should always be in the main event whether it'd be in this case TNT. Championship or the world. Title I just I. I always liked that as a as A. You know a tradition. If you will so that that's just me if you know I, mean obviously I'm not a wrestling booker, but It, it might make sense to kind of start off with that in in the in the opening match knowing that You know you'd obviously kind of depends on what does well. If you're talking about counter programming, because see they did you start off with only Larkin and Timothy Thatcher? That really doesn't have that much name value. As we talked about him a little a little while ago. So you throw Cody Jake? Right in that spot and you're going to get a lot. More is on the AWA product than T at least I would assume so that that could certainly make sense I think it might be. might end up kicking off with the women's world. Women's sale matches well that that could make sense since two I do have to admit I'm not nearly as up to date on on dynamite as as I probably would like to be for this conversation I mean part of that makes valuable. Like. What would they need to do to get if you're like you because? W to grow part of growth comes from people who are tuning in because this is a special event, and so what names jump out to you? What things intrigue you not watching it start to finish every week since October. Sure so. In a way, obviously, cody and Jake, certainly certainly stick out to me. Cody, I've always been a fan of his I might be one of the very few people that actually really liked the stardust character. believe it or not, I kind of liked the contrast to goal dust, but that's beside the point and so you know I've always been a fan of his and see the legacies is family. Has Jake Hager interests me because I really don't see him as a main of enter yet? And you know, maybe it's because I have been a bit of a lapsed. W. Fan I. Actually the very first night that aws ever aired on TV was my first night during the talks next. T podcasts so I've I've I've had to watch an x. t live ever since W. has you know has had a dynamite on the air so I really haven't had the option. But so I don't know if it's just because I've been allowed. Wouldn't even elapse fan, but I haven't watched it as much so he does. He have that Jack Swagger stink on him. If you will because I, I don't feel like he ever yea. He was world champion, but he was never a man of enter and I kind of still get that impression from things that I've read online. Just listening to you know other torch content reading towards content other things online. And just from watching him on W.. Dynamite, this past week. The kind kinda tried to present him like that, but I I don't know I. Just still in my mind, he's still not there so. So in a way I kind of want to watch that because I want to see if they're going to promote him as a man of Anton I. Want to see if he if he can hold up to that, so that's certainly intriguing to me. seeing Kenny, Omega and Adam. Page versus best friends is also something that's pretty intriguing to me as well You're obviously the name that the elite bring to you bring to this match, but also the best friends like you said they're. They're not a necessarily main event tag team. That more of a you know. Be Level MID card tag team, but the the definitely bring some name value and in that comedic value In on dynamite last week, the the the video package hyping mismatch. Like I really liked the way that they put it together because it had like a a a really nice sports feel to it. and they were presenting it like a You know an actual sports contests, but it still had those comedic gestures is comedic comedic jabs here and there something that you feel like we saw on. WWe might be a little bit more outlandish, so I certainly appreciated that But If if I was to just flip on both channels at the same time, you know and if he w really wanted to grammy I, think probably starting with either the TNT match. Championship match or the Women's championship match we're probably at least be hooks me and. Thank, you for listening to the weight Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, be sure to subscribe also if you haven't yet subscribed to the Wade Keller pro wrestling post shows this show the podcast have our blue logo the way Taylor pro wrestling post shows have our red logo just search Wade Keller and Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to progressing podcasts and click subscribe to the red logo, and you can download our raw smackdown, eighty W and sometimes annex. t Poe shows I'm joined by a CO host to add a different perspective to the analysis for the show. Show where we talked to live callers, onsite correspondents or in the building. Who Tell us what did not air? On TV and we also answer Male Bay questions. Those shows are available for download within a few hours after the shows and on Monday Wednesday and Friday nights, so there's a fast turnaround to get your fix, so check it out. That's the Wade Keller pro wrestling Poe. Show just search Wade Keller. You can also stream the live at Wade Keller, Poe show dot com about five minutes after the show's end on Monday Wednesday and Friday night. Let's let's flip to the NFC side of things. nate to you I in terms of the strategy of how to pace this out, is there an obvious matched open with to Hook people to counter program? What next might be anticipating as Omega and page against best friends as the opener, but neither I mean at least according to their twitter feed neither side is tipping their hand on what will kick off the evening? So go to extra limits and Roderick strong, because you don't need to know a lot to know something, weird's going on with extra by the way if Dextra Lewis became, becomes a shadow figure through a filter and start us becomes a shadow figure through a filter. They both moved very similar to each other I. Don't know if you think about it, there's. Truth to? The open something that's super easy to understand, but feels significant because you're GonNa Have Adam Cole at ringside, and all that weird stuff going on already just open with a red hot like women's match and you open with By the way updated is now an elimination match, and just get Kai and Laura and knocks out there to counter. What's going to be a crazy? Probably high octane? Taking title match was page and best friends like what he opened with. If the if we're all in agreement, that prime make sense to close with Sharon Sasha although you could argue open with Sasha to get a good lead at the start and use rest show to build up everybody else, so yeah, your thoughts on match order in the strategy. So. My Gut says to start with the women's elimination match. I think that's going to be very high intensity very high energy match. And there's a lot that goes into it, so you know for for a fan that's been watching T. you've obviously got the teague inox in Dakota story line that's been going on since like survivor series time. I think time has kind of just blurred together over the past few months. but I think that's when I was so that's been going on for quite some time now. and then Kansas Lori and me a Yelm also kind of been woven into their story at the Dakota. Could knock storyline, so there's a lot going on going on in there for a fan that's been keeping up with everything, and all that but I think the match is also going to be high intensity enough. Where if you just turn it on it? It should grab you at least I would think especially to with with how annexed he does present. The women I know there's a lot a few casual fans that I. Know My wife actually being one of them who? You know the she'll. She'll see the women on TV and she'll stop and she'll look and she's like Oh. My God and she. Yeah, she's a huge fan of of watching. The girls do their thing and so I think that that could obviously you know. Play a point in. Starting out with them from there I might go to something like. Either Ripley or actually from there might go to Rear Ripley. A Leah I don't think really should be much higher up on the card. It's probably the coldest coldest thing on on this on this card. If I if I had to take a stab at that so probably go. There I might go with only Larkin and Timothy, Thatcher either third potentially fourth You know if we put a fourth. Right before you go into the your shrines, Sasha banks main event With Yeah Dexter Lummus Yeah Dixon was roderick strong, third, and then only lark intimidate Thatcher fourth is kind of like the As a match, that's going to be good at high energy, but obviously maybe that kind of a a bit of bring down before the main event years kind of a staple and a lot of w paper views not necessarily annex T so I might be sticking my foot in my mouth, but I'll take that bold prediction. Eric your thoughts on the annex. T lineup the strategy on how they should try to counter program Awa to retain and grow viewership. and with nate on starting with the women's elimination match assuming they are going to hotshot whoever wins? Women's limitation matched to the title shot on July as the following week I guess. If you is going to be face, you would want to have A. he'll win. And we've seen candice in Eeo a bunch of times in the last. Six to nine months so maybe Dakota makes sense, but either way. That'll be high, paced, fast, paced, good work. I'd say I didn't catch a good place to start from there. I don't know you got a bunch of. You Have A. Kind of the worst storyline on annex. T right now that they're pushing Maria, Ripley, Robert Stones you'd. Rea- Ripley Man. Did she pull a randy Orton like crap and in? His Gym bag or something? What did she do to deserve this good Lord? She. Is She going to dump soccer with Roberts Stone brand? I mean. She was very confident and like telling. William Regal Yeah Book of the match. That's fine, because don't try to recruiter, and she's blowing them off throwing them in a dumpster twice, but stone doesn't take. No for an answer doesn't take a hint well. In wants her part of it. I can see them doing a comedy skit. Or comedies, a story arc where Ripley is with is forced to be with stone and annexed tease current writing team. Perhaps if some other influences might be saying, we need some comedy and we need some Haha. Dexter Lewis and Roderick strong. Let's develop Ripley's personality behalf putting her to situation playoff Robert Stone. People who saw the momentum rea- head going into mania in that part of the year. Probably don't want that to happen, but I could imagine vincent man deciding. That's just the ticket to get her over. My God. Actually cool right, but he come out Yup. Cool she works great. She's she's young. Sky's the limit. I know what she did. Deserve this I don't even know I don't know where you stick that. You stick it where you think you're going to lose anyway, maybe you know. Is that, the second or third match you don't want at the top of the hour, you want it out eight, eight, fifteen or something central or And I think you have to meet event with EEO versus Sasha I'm not not sure how you book that finish. I sure hope they don't job ego. Because? She's just getting feet under her after her strong performance at the in your house show. But Sasha can't job either because isn't. She supposed to be in the Challenge. Title there and the extreme rules for Shell. Next month so I you know I. Mean You just get some sort of unsatisfying count out q fish Dexter loomis as a baby face is a real interesting choice. The choice I would've made does not seem a baby face gimmick Roderick strongest done the best. He can with this but you know I think. After the to to the women's matches. That's probably the match you WANNA see most. I think that's your and work in will be a classic in that. They will not leave that, but it will still be really really good like a new Japan style almost But. That's not I don't know that that's going to necessarily late the world on fire so you've got some BB minus matches to go along with a B plus for you know fatal four way women's match and the A. You'll match so i. just you know mix and match I think I think an xt will be helped because there'e there's only one match announced for July eighth. They probably have to spend sometime during the show shooting angles to build for July eighth right. That could the pacing. Angle that. Tends to be interesting and another self and get you to want to watch the match so Even though the the card has some. Maybe ratings wise weak points in it or actual weak points like the comedy thing with stone You could live and things up a bit by getting US ready for July Ace, and at the end of the day. He again have that ace in the hole. The Adam Cole keithly match that everybody wants to see I. Mean it Adam Cole Kief. We angles probably going to be shop on July first you one more to build that even if it's you know contract, signing or confrontation or doing promos that'll help where the NFC card may be a little weak. That'll help. So Maybe, it's not as long. The 'cause as I thought is in trying to figure out how to book these matches. You know you you can. You can shoot angles during the quarter hours where you have sort of lesser lesser matches. Nate thrown to you hear. What do you expect an xt? Do you have any idea how they fill out four five six match card a week from this week? What what jumps to mind that they'll counter program with in fact. Let me set the table on that as I thirty, because this is what eight has announced because we have the the full lineup four night to so to speak are week to fighter fest, headlining Jocks, defending the Awa Championship against Brian Cage. Chris, Jericho, against Orange Cassidy in pay off to the angle that lost so many viewers last week, then F. T., the former revival end the box against latrobe rose and butcher in Blade in eight man tag match. Archer versus Joey Giannella and Brody Lico Cabana grace against all three members of SCU plus Rosen actions. So that's what ws coming back with next week next t headlining. US Eric says with maybe the most attractive match of all of all both weeks in keithly. Challenge. Challenging title versus title versus Lee. So, yeah, your thoughts on exte-. T might counter with to fill out that card. So, it's I'm not sure one hundred percent. What what they're GONNA do to fill out the car, but you've definitely got you definitely get talent that they're not going to be appearing on the July first. Show so obviously. We wouldn't want to do something with them. On the eighth show, some talent comes to mind. We like camera, Grimes Damian Priest they've they've been. In the midst of a pretty hot feud right now so I mean I could certainly see especially with the last couple of matches they had I think both of them. I'm trying to remember now. I can't remember if they ended screw finishes are not. Actually may not have now I think about it, but still they've had. They've had a pretty good feud on TV so I could see them potentially coming to some sort of a clash on the eighth episode you also have Fin Ballard joining organic that they're not doing anything on July first edition, the great American Bash whether you put them opposite. Each other I I'm not. Not Sure you just saw them in a match with against with Keith Lee involved with for the North American title last week. potentially you could, you could do something kind of play off a bat triple threat you know maybe why they lost or something and and kind of build into a story that way so they're certainly certainly that there's also. Induce share I'm a huge fan of new share. In Malcolm, givens and everything that they're they're doing. They're bringing to the table right now. as a as our Kelly wells and Tom. Stop all three of us are really really looking forward to seeing what these guys are going to be bringing through the next tag division, so they might even want to do something with the tag. Titles imperium. I feel they've been just kind of a transitional champion. Anyway I. Really feel like the the next titles were bound for There is a an xt. Kate tag team that I can't think of top of my head now, but Wow Yeah. They just escaped my brain, but I feel that particular team, I can't think of was bound for the next tag titles, and then because of covid and everything be just. It just didn't pan out. So you know kind of got shifted imperium so I feel like you can induce share. They might have something to do. you know with with that Some sort of a tag team match on on July. Episode really makes sense as well as the annexed cruiserweight title you or at least the champion himself Santo Escobar your. He's obviously been a big act. with you know. Everything that happened with your the unmasking of Lto. L. Hyo dealt fantasma everything going on with these mass lueders doors, and all that stuff so he should certainly be on the card. I'm not really sure against who necessarily top of my head one name that comes to mind Drake Maverick who was brutally beaten down by him. Last week so you this week, we might end up either seeing some sort of a video return hyping the July a show or something like that but those are those are at least a few things that come to mind that we might see. Fill out the car on the eighth I think this week you could also. Go. You could also do. Yeah, you could also do it women's title match if you want it to right. Right to it. and then carrying cross has not. That on week one. He's push guy in promotion right now. You know you might want to get him on the show Is it another squash? Sure that would be I? You know they're all wash. I'm almost forty wrestles named guys. They're slash matches because he's being for so hard, so you can do, you can do It's not hard I. Don't think to fill out July eighth card in. I gotta say looking at what he w has on offer which I think. We're probably about to go to next. Maybe on July eighth. A? Team may we may have one of those double headers where you split SPLIT The first game and extremes the second game because I'm I'm excited about. And the NASD card that we put together here. There's there's actually one of the thing. I did mean to bring up crossing I forgotten until you brought him up Eric. WANNA pop a rating on July eighth back CIAMPA I'm hoping that. Maybe you know maybe. If. You are going to have crossing that show if it is isn't squash or. Lebron read, he's been trying to to get Get in his way, so maybe book something like that or squash, but you have CIAMPA. Show up or a peer or or something, maybe kind of hype. It tomorrow night on on the first first American great American Bash, but that that's something that came to mind as well I just I just forgot to get to it before. Searching for more great pro wrestling talk. Join Me Jason Powell host of the free weekly pro wrestling boom podcast each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis for me and my team at pro wrestling dot net along with other wrestling media members plus the pro wrestling boom, hot gas features long-form interviews with notable names in the wrestling industry, subscribing team, stitcher downcast, and all your favorite secondary apps or visit us directly at POW boom dot com once again. That's PW BOOED DOT COM. Yeah I think champ across makes sense with crosses just. Domination of Bra. Bronson and then you go to, and then you can play the valor car that Gargano Card. It's just there's depth there and I. Think Erica, right? I mean the the what they can load up for week. Two to counter eighty. W is pretty intimidating and they have by the way the Ron smackdown roster for reinforcements. If they want to bring somebody in when in November and early December. When t got some ratings, viewership will madame over Awa for the first time it was during the survivor series type was cross promotion and wrestlers from. Ron's backed out appearing on and people who love ECKSTEEN. Don't like Ron. smackdown might hate. Hate it but the fact is? There are a lot more people watching Ron smackdown and they're not the types of fans who necessarily settle in and listen to these podcasts, and our as quote into wrestling as people who listen to this are, but there's a lot of them out there, and if you bring one or two stars from around smackdown over to annex t for week two, and you announce it a week ahead of time that that can be a difference maker, and what can eight UW counter with? What do they have? Hand do they have to play? Because Eric will look at week two and it's Moxley cage I would say George Cassidy was a big attraction, but just got. Slaughtered in the in the viewership data last week. Still think that's an attractive match, but other than that. It's multi person matches. That, don't have a huge huge backstory or hook to them and Lance Archer George Annella. Is I think you want to make that quick 'cause you might lose viewers as the sun kissed you. L. Match did last week. I lost a lot of yours. You gotTa make that quick so I next is a chance to. Like you said, get get a big week to win in this battle. What what do you think w can do to to counter that I? Think they've done a nice job building up moxley cage. They did a nice job for those who saw the jerk orange cassidy segment. What else can they do? Well they've also got. The the former revival, plus the young bucks against the brothers, their first match back in the butcher in the blade. Those. Those top three matches are pretty good Maybe you know maybe stronger than what he w has tapped on top and week one. The problem is Archer Vanilla cares. Nylon rose squash. Who Cares Brodie, Lee and Coke Cabana versus the The two guys you really don't wait. It might be a six-man man. Right, yeah! So it's three. All Right! All right so. At least you'll have Scorpio sky and STU, and those guys can actually go, so but still. Those three are. Those three bottom edges are not exactly leading the world on fire I think Jericho Cassidy look. They weren't in a match, so I think don't match his usually trump. Confrontations on other wings in really depends on the star power in in the match. I mean you can have a talking segment destroy match if it's the wrong match and the right talking segment, so you know, but you're right I mean actually wrestling each other is going to have I think more. Jericho talking and Orange Cassidy. To stick has appeal, but that was a big time. High stakes match on annex. T that obliterated it. It doesn't mean nobody cares about. The match just means in that setting people just. Peeled off to watch the actual wrestling because it was a good counter match so the. HOW HOW JERK! Cassidy does I think they have a better chance to hold their own actually wrestling, but it's not like Jerry is not known for being really entertaining as a talker so. I. Don't know I want to show me that people care about FDR. A group of Aficionado fans who highly respect at what the revival of done love their next matches, and they weren't utilized, but I don't know how many hundred thousand viewers there are that care deeply about FDR bucks enough to counter program. We brought up that annex. T can deliver. Young Bucks into big stars than they were eight months ago. I don't think dynamites made them bigger stars I don't think dynamites made Pentagon Phoenix bigger stars. They put them out there on TV, but I don't think I think it's tough to argue they're bigger. Stars based on how they've been framed FDR bigger stars because they tell everyone how great they are, but I'm not sure that. I'm not sure that the mainstream viewers who make or break rating are on board with that yet as them being a big deal. I'm not sure they're not either I just WanNa, see some evidence I think we might be wrong and thinking that that jumps off the page to the people who make or break a segment winning or losing in this head to head battle Eric. I think when you have a chance to see. the bucks on one side loop. Brothers on the other. They had nothing but amazing matches together in a w in so I I agree which brothers have not I think deserve a stronger push than they've been getting they've been. The News a little bit better than good hands like good hands with a good gimmick, but I think they have been given a little bit of short shrift in the bucks. They keep talking about her their greatest tag team. But they haven't had the belts yet, and and they're stars. Entertaining I just think that's a I to me. It looks like a reasonably solid match. on what is essentially a three match show on the aws side. Yeah. You know they've already announced. The Carter. And that's your excel another three. it's an invest have weeks of build up, but it's a disadvantage in terms of nimble miss to counter program annexed. Has the Nimble nece to build into the night one? Hype Angles to people for night to for week two where a W has pretty much to separate cards where you could shuffle the matches, the which night they take, place doesn't really matter I expect on night, one fighter fast to see an angle to make us or a video package to make care more about Yuriko Cassidy more about cage, Moxley and definitely more about the eight eight way tag match. In there's different ways you can hide that, but both shows are going to use weak one. They should use week one too high, too. Don't just point a camera at the ring and have everybody wrestle. You can also invest the viewers in week two. This is a battle of pride. It's a way to keep score in the big picture doesn't matter I. Mean Yes, and no every week. Matters does it. Does it count exponentially more this week? Compared to one month from now or one month ago, not really I mean what matters is just putting good shows and and building viewership over time that said it's a lot of fun to see them both stepping up here in July. And to outdo each other and going back full circle to the original question. Say what you will about using I remember Vincent Man Complaining to me in in the nineties about Ted Turner, using money from other divisions to unfairly prop up WCW. And put on matches on Nitro that he couldn't afford to give away the equivalent of on raw, because nitrogen have to make money off. How shows because they were subsidized by Ted Turner's or the divisions. This McMahon was complaining directly to me about that. He initiated a phone call to be to complain about that. And that's what essentially is happening here with T. you know they're a subsidized. Subsidize Division of me based on the success of Saudi Arabia. The WB, network and Ron, smackdown revenue and Vince is using that to boost and strengthen and exte-. Opposite of an independently family owned upstart company that Vincent Man saw himself as. Back in the in the nineties when Ted Turner was really starting to step up, so I'm fascinated by this sort of you know going full circle a couple times in terms of Jim Crockett promotions, man and then Vincent Ted Turner and Tony Kahn and Vincent Triple H, I think a lot of fun and I think this discussion is. To be able to have a discussion like this looking at two weeks lineups. I think shows that this is a more important a couple of weeks. In this battle, and it's possible that the better to shows and up giving the the winning show momentum going into the summer where they don't look back. They take a lead, and they don't. They don't give up that lead because people tune in and make maybe larger numbers than usual the next two weeks get addicted to storylines and personalities, and they end up just it ends up being a defining two weeks for the rest of summer. Nate I'll throw to you for any closing. Words on anything having to do with this and Eric do the same for you. And then we'll, we'll wrap up. Yeah I think I think really no matter which show you guys decided to watch live. You're GonNa Watch a pretty good show at least for night. One anyway night to is to be determined, but we'll We'll have a little bit more information next week to kind of base that off of I think as far as promotion for the shows, eight w handily wins out over an X.. T. Here the great American Bash as I said I didn't even know it was like coming until halfway through your recording Pedo Talk Xanax. Xanax last week whereas fighter fast, you know even if somebody that I haven't really been keeping up with an with a e w over the past your handful of months really actually had to look back on my Dvr to figure out when the last time I watched aws W wasn't a surprise to how far back I think. I think. Yeah, it's it's it's. It's going to be a pretty good pretty good show overall so so you know yeah, I no matter which way you go, you're gonNA. You'RE GONNA. Watch show up the first night. And Eric over for some closing and say prediction wise eighty w wins week. One annexed he. Wins Week to I would be surprised if there are any title changes other than teeth Lee over Adam Cole. I think it's time it's. It's time to to go with keithly or or anybody been them. Call at this point even though he's a great job. Annex T. The Star power on that show is probably lower than it's been in a long time. The death isn't what it used to be due to call ups E W but you know. Is as you've noted. They can supplement with main roster acts coming down to to refresh or to get away from Vince is Dan booking. such as dollar. So you know they have a, they can inject starpower onto their show at cut anytime. They want or or choose to do so they can point death star at at an and and fire. Eight W been worried about this since the promotion launched because they don't do how shows. They do the pay per views that have done reasonably well in the environment. But just worried about eight at you. Hot, shouting and burning matches. There's you know you only have so many matches before things get repetitive. They only have so many top guys, if to create top guys, but that's. Easier said than done and W. Could burn through all of their top mattress relatively quickly between weekly TV and quarterly pay per views and the fighter fest, the bridge that's not really a pay per view, but kind of a big show that they build before they get to the next start the bills for the next actual pay per view, and so it's something I'm watching long-term to see how they deal with that and so far they've dealt with it by bringing in new guys Early Brian Cage. You know at some point you run out of new guys to bring in, so I guess you just keep mixing and matching until. Until. They kept you on the shoulder until you to go home, but That's what I'm looking at long-term. COOL AWESOME GUYS! Hey, Eric, do have anything you WANNA plug. You can subscribe the Chicago Tribune Dot Com or always running specials. If you're into news from the Midwest in Chicago, guess. What's your beat right now? What are you covering? I am editor in. I say about help determine the coverage at the stories. I have been. An investigations editor by trade, but I've been on loan to the pandemic team. That's what I was saying twelve. And I've been. Has that been? Like! Are you exhausted or or do setting aside the the the horrible human tragedy of it and the absurdity? Some S is it from a journalistic standpoint as been fascinating chapter of your career just too exhausting inside to even quantify in that way. Yet the. For the first month or so, it was like drink trend. Drink out of a house was young. Justin say crazy to me, stories, Jays and Not enough reporters to chase them and. Settle Down a little bit Illinois actually handled it. Knock on wood, handle the. Pandemic better than most states which you know he's. Not Perfect, but there were you know I think there's statewide? There might be seven hundred new cases a day, but the number of deaths are less than thirty day. And we'll see how that. We'll see how that works in the next couple of weeks because they just allowed indoor dining to reopen at Limited capacity bars so in Wrigley Bill I Wrigley Field there where the where the cubs play, it looked like a regular Saturday night, and hardly anyone was wearing a mask, so we could be headed back. Jesus could be ticking back up in the coming weeks in fifteen years twenty years. There's going to be a whole generation of people looking at what happened here in just shaking their heads I mean the twenty twenty hindsight on this when you have the totality of all the information and you know the end result. Is. Going to look absolutely absurd in retrospect that I mean that. That, it's gotten as bad as it's gotten. When all these other countries, even if they've had any kind of rebound, the totality of what happened in Europe compared to the United States embarrassing. But Anyway Thanks. Nate anything you want to plug other than. What you already did. Which is twit talks? St Search POW torch, and your podcast APP, or check out Kelly Wells' report at W. Torch Dot Com, every Wednesday night to get linked to their live show. That starts a half hour after annexed. anything else nate. So comedic, actress. Actually there is There's actually another project that I work on It's a project, a youtube show as well as another podcast. Called Dj's and dragons degenerates dragons, and we We actually focus on bringing tabletop RPG. Gaming. And and it's therapeutic benefits to the masses so we actually launched about two two months ago. and You know it's. It's a pretty cool look at RPG gaming in the way the way that you can kind of look at it from a therapeutic perspective MY PARTNER HAS A. Masters in Psychology and he is handpicked each game that we play throughout the course of our quote season one to to figure out how he would best use it in a clinical setting so we we kind of tackle it from that perspective as well as just how your everyday average Joe can. can kind of get some therapeutic from gaming especially O- kind of in today's times with a lot of the the the ice, elation and things like that and how you can, you can use tabletop gaming, even any even in a virtual setting to kind of have some social interaction and things like that so certainly I if you'd like, check us out my up. My twitter is at Nate Berga. On twitter our our brand of four for ages and dragons is time this dg? In about a month I'm actually going to be running my very first game as a gay master and I'm running the world wide wrestling. Rpg I create I created my own promotion, so we'll be spending spending a few weeks on that, so I'm looking forward to that I. Watch your podcast partner to do a special guest appearance on talks next t reviewing how Kyle Riley did counseling. Roderick strong. I could actually probably make that happen. is is this immersion therapy or or facing your fears ineffective approach to do a totally straight, but it just like that'd be. That'd be fun. Although eight he could do it. He could do it. You see normally we wait 'til 'til the six month before we'd put someone in a trunk. Article Eric thanks so much. It's always great having you on. It's great to reconnect with you and thank you, nate, thank you to connect with. You WanNa podcast here and thanks to all our listeners, so we're halfway through wildcard Tuesday up. Now is the June twenty-ninth two thousand ten Tuesday flagship edition Jason Pablo from progressing Dot Net, joining me to talk about current events and wrestling with live callers here we go. Welcome to. Live cats, it is Tuesday June twenty, nine, two, thousand, Ten I am host Wade, Keller, editor of progressing towards newsletter and W. Torch Dot Com and I'm joined today by I. Think Jason Powell the Pros Dot net. How you doing Jason I'm doing great. You're the one is running a little bit late today mean. Little bit late Yes. Definitely I'm trying to deal with a new soccer program and get the labels printed up for our newsletter mailing and boy I could've used five extra minutes. 'cause I didn't get the labels printed talking to figure out how to do that while doing the radio show today and multitasking. I like on you a little bit more for a couple of minutes. Jason answering questions while I tend to that so I will be multitasking but I. do want to give the phone number out. Encourage collar to call in, and obviously the main subject today. can be the yesterday's Raw Jeez. What do we know about the visa situation right now? It's kind of become a story today. They turned into a storyline last Friday on smackdown with drew McIntyre and now Wade Barrett has his name has been brought into it. What do we know about this kind of conflicting reports from the sources I spoke with Yes, indeed, they are out indefinitely due to visa issue, and it's one source said this one definitely falls on talent relations, another source, saying well yeah talent. Talent relations and there's also someone from legal involved I. Don't know who to pin the blame on, and when you hear talent relations, I think most people assume all its John More night. It's messing up again, but there's no guarantee was him. That might be something. He delegated delegates to someone else too, so i. don't want to jump to conclusions there, but either way. Man 'cause the timing any worse. Wayne Barrett obviously because the next thing and also drew McIntyre I had zero interest and drew McIntyre and tell these smackdown before fatal four way, and I thought on that show, and then a fatal four way. They did a really nice job with him all this time they've dedicated to pushing him. Finally seemed to be paying off a little bit. And now both guys are out indefinitely. One source doesn't think it's GonNa take too long but you know. It's kind of I think in the government's hands at this point and we all know how they can correct your feet, and and the idea is that that they should have had their visas renewed and not come up by surprise, but if you're working on a visa in another country, not know when you are when that visas coming, do and not contact talent relations, yourself and just taking care of or. Is it so routine that it shouldn't even have to be asked. You Know I. Don't know This is a problem and occurred TNA and by the way. Get that chat room going because I'm sure you'll get emails on that Oh yeah, what we're here. this happened in with Angelina love, but the circumstances where a little different. Because she had a work visa that was Kinda held over from when she was working. WWe Mental, and so it's you know people who recall that it took a really long time for Angelina love situation and get straightened out kinda different circumstances, so I don't at this point. Point, I I'm not ready to say that it's GonNa take that long for these guys. Actress based on what the one source was kind of assuming at this point that it's not gonNA take too long. The one source said something about they had to go. They had to back to their home country to sign the paperwork You know I'm GonNa take his word on that. It just seems kind of odd that you couldn't do that kind of thing from home, but I guess the source would know better than I would on that issue. So when we hear indefinitely, it could mean it gets taken care of and really nobody skips a beat, and just it's written into the storyline and they're back as soon as next week possibly. You know possibly I also let me throw this. Let me throw this conspiracy theory. Maybe. This goes on more often than we realize, but. There's Linda McMahon Really WanNa have WWe using illegal illegal aliens. Running for office I mean I. Know This has happened in the past The first source said it was you know there was some developmental people that they screwed up on There was someone who is ready to debut, and then that kind of got pushed back because of this issue a while back when they didn't renew that person's visa and the push the plan push was never the same, and so it didn't really. It's never really made any waves, but I guess it's not the first time that they've screwed this up. Yeah. Yeah, so a little bit of a cloud over over the the situation in two major storylines opted the waiver one being a little bigger. Fortunately, he's part of a large group, so you can continue the NFC storyline without him being there, even though it's not ideal, but through McIntyre at least they have the ability, because it's not the central focus smackdown to write him out of a temporary. Yeah so I guess I guess this is a manageable situation. This isn't it Johnson three days before Wrestlemainia? Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. I think the concern. The obvious concern is that they can't. It's GonNa if it takes some time for Wade Barrett and they get to the point where they actually need these guys to start wrestling. Ouch, I mean you've already you fired Bryan Danielson for idiotic reasons reasons, and now you lose your mouthpiece, and arguably the second best worker that's on your left with six Berry Green guys for the most part, and I thought it was interesting last night that. The Mike Time went to I. Think Tunga got a little bit, but it was really Michael Tarver who was the guy that didn't do anything on an xt, so we never really got a taste of what he can do. I thought he did okay with it. I I think that that hooded thing that he wears really adds to the the gimmick when they when they come through the crowd, and so is kind of encouraging to see him actually get an opportunity to do a little something more, and does he. Does he do that because he's a Germaphobe? I I don't know. Maybe he does. In two thousand twelve annexed, t transitioned into the developmental system, and ultimately the brand you see today on the torch, VIP podcast INEX- T. eight years back. We'll be taking a weekly. Look at this page and exceeds early history. Join, Kelly, wells and me. Tom Style from WT talks annex t every Saturday, as we go eight years back to the day to track annexed teas, rising talents, and why they did or didn't work out exclusively for PW TORTURE VIP members. Barfoot over here on torch, live cast is six, four, six, seven, two, one, nine, eight, two, eight, six, six, seven to one, ninety, two eight win. Courage you to give us a call and participate in the show Jason. We'll talk about Ron Mister Johnson all that kind of stuff as the show progresses. But why don't we dive right into the phone lines and go to Eric? Code, nine three one Thanks for calling your name and where you're from. Tennessee. Hey, how you doing hear from. I'll getting ready for raw next week. I'll be there. Had Yeah to real quick questions one was. Do you think that they kind of dropped the ball on the straight edge society again. Jason Go ahead and pick. Yeah to some extent I. Mean there's certainly no one seems to care anymore. Who the mystery members of the straight edge society is dragged that up to the point that. Okay. We all know that those of us who follow the Industry which Matthews Aka enjoy mercury but the average fan at home. It's just like it's become the norm now. There's that other guy that's industry society. with punk. I. You know I think. They're going to get punk right back on track. I wouldn't be surprised at all if working plan if the holds title that long as mysterious Pumpkin and summer slam so I don't think they've killed it off. I just don't think they're doing a great job with it right now. Yeah. Yeah Yeah I I. Totally Agree I was a little bit more looking towards the fact, that punks character isn't as edgy as it was. Maybe they kinda. Rub some spot through their online. Maybe possibly. Yeah. I mean I haven't heard of that happening, but it's possibly push that a little bit, too. You think. They dropped the ball because pump. Cazin, his promos are a little more watered down. He's not bringing up the drugs as much. He's not ripping on the fans and much, but I think it's only about a week or two since he went pretty much all out with that. Yeah Yeah My my other question, and if you could keep you on hold, it'd be great his You know we. We give the writing team. WWE A lot of hard time for kind of making things up as they go, but I think this whole next invasion. was telegraphed Rut even before next ended the first season. What they were going. To be looking at where we are now with all of this. How much do you think this planned ahead? And how much was winging? It based on some of the stuff that you know I, mean. Maybe it's maybe convenience, but maybe they thought some of the stuff ahead. Yeah I. Guess The one character that of stands out where you could see him kind of morphing into what he is now a skip Sheffield, but you know I it's been. It's a little were just because they made. It seem like the in promos. They've said that they decided a long time ago. They're going to have fun on the show, but really in this together, but if you go back and watch those even probably the last week, but I'll take shots at Tunga and going back and forth with each other and these promos, and so I. Don't know I don't know how it was planning in Advance I. I kind of get the feeling that this was done on the fly and I I'm pretty critical of what they did last night. I I really I enjoy the angle that they did with the legends, but at the same time I thought they made Johnson especially in a lot of the baby faces, look really bad. They're risking suspension. And instead they just stayed backstage I mean Johnson and character is all about respect and loyalty, and all this, and at the very least I thought they should have shown Johnson being held back and fighting to get out there and didn't care about suspension, and he was nowhere to be found. He didn't even come out to help them out. I think it would have been good to have the anonymous. GM have like they could claim. It was forged documentation after the fact, but the new GM called an appellate meeting. And then everybody wanted one room and they were locked in there. That would be fine. You know something and you know i. didn't you were pretty bothered by the first week when they didn't have they didn't explain why Sina. Wasn't saved by other members in the locker, and that one didn't bother me as much, but this one really did and and so I. You know I just it's. They were so proud of themselves and Michael Cole. Sit there and explain it all that well. They couldn't do anything because they would have been suspended and was like. No, that's a really weak explanation. I don't I don't even know if you WANNA. Spotlight that I. They did seem a little too proud of story line with a big gaping hole, which is really you're the heroes that were supposed to look up to are worried about suspension, so they'll let rick steamboat. Get killed. Yeah exactly there's just. Nothing nobody running out I. Get it with Randy Orton. He might be the one exception of the baby faces because in the legend killer, and he's still kind of that cleaner they'll. They'll have them. Shake hands off camera, but never on camera, but the rest of them for that just makes them look like you know just self centered, and you're going to end. It just really disappointing. Yeah, I'd be mad at you if I was getting beat up. By a gang of people on the street and you're like. Oh, I guess suspended from work. I jumped in there. Well, it depends on suspension. Is You know? Especially this week with the holiday weekend. I take the suspension, but. Talking like a month or two months or something you know. I guess we'll just have to see him. Wake and take Let's go back to the Jericho to seven. Thanks for calling. Please state your name and where you're from. John May. John from Maine. Yes. Yes, you're. Talking about I. I I'm calling I. WAS GONNA say first time. To First Time they called a while. I just wanted to kind. Tack onto what Jason was talking about and then what happened after raw, went off the air, the fact that the annexed guys and I was reading the NFC guys and she mixed it up after so. Even the the fact that they would be suspended or fired. If you know, somebody were to to come into contact with the other one. You know with the entire arena or whatever it is fifteen thousand people Doesn't that completely? Just throw the The storyline right out of the window. You know what you're missing John is that there was fine print and it was too small for Michael. Rules only applied when a red light on a cameras on. I mean you're right? Know John. That is a great point. It's like well. We care about being consistent for people watching on TV but yeah for the you know five ten fifteen thousand people in this building. So you know they. They just WANNA see John May, come back I mean why bother with an explanation and only apply to the TV audience and totally contradict yourself in front of the live crowd. I agree exactly, and it's not like they pretend the internet doesn't make fish. It's just ridiculous, yes. I I'm with. The other thing that I question that I had was. Do you think that and maybe the visa situation might plan to it? I'm a conspiracy there. that given way their push. and his lack of experience to speak the fact that he is green. You think that there some resentment back stage at all I think, what do you think? I. Don't get this vibe yet. You know I when I interviewed Chris Jericho. He was complimentary of Barrett and saying that you know the next to. Eating listed him among the the only real workers in that group and I. I'm sure you're always gonNA. Have that UNDERCARD T to mid card guy who's been there forever and is jealous, no matter who gets pushed but I I heard a lot more complaining when it was shameless than the next anything doesn't mean we won't start here and I'm sure we will just Kinda the nature of the industry, but so far I think guys are. It seems like they're accepting. I guess you know anything that helps draw money You'll find the locker rooms. Somewhat in favor of you know even if they think somebody's getting a push ahead of what they should. If? They think it's helping business. I think that will well some jealousy, but I I think everybody. Kinda realizes you know I. Mean like shameless. Got This Big Push Jason you a good point, and this, which is you know? Shame has had a lot of experience coming in Even before he got the WWe, and and and as we found out last night with the I I got a kick out of this little dive bar when our Anderson listed. You know when people discuss the all time greats. What roles Tom Triple h was the first name you mentioned, and then goes into Shawn. Michaels and undertaker I was like you know people kind of like looked at my Keller's take a couple of weeks ago on pw sorts. Dot Com I said Hey. I'll new wrestlers. Here's the unwritten code of conduct. Here's the unwritten rules of how you speak publicly. There, you're not handed a handbook. Don't learn the hard way. In one of them is always include triple H on any list of all time greats, and if you really want to suck up, include them. I and aren't muster. Read it I. Mean It was right out of the handbook although he broke helped, write the handbook 'cause you know serious. The top five of all time nobody nobody who has a real a real perspective on history. It's GONNA mention triple h in the top five. You might be top ten fifteen at storyline wise, it makes sense but I'm just saying if you'RE GONNA leave out ric flair for political then don't deny that you're including relates her political well. I thought was very clever with that because he was talking about. The top five and steamboat includes mentioned three guys and steamboat and I thought that you know the fact that he left one spot open was kind of a wink. Wink to Ric flair Yeah? That's true. That's true I think that is actually a really good point that he did. Leave him some less somewhere in there by going well, the the the Thir, the four spot or the spot, or whatever that's a mystery, and you can insert the obvious I I left off here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, anything else John. I know I. Just want to put in a plug for The IPHONE APPS for for both personally and the POW torture I think they're both great excellent gone. Hey, thanks for calling appreciate call. Okay. You can put me on hold. I will do that. Are Jason Let's keep rolling through calls. You're listening to the torch. Cast I'm host Wade. Keller joined today by Jason Powell, pro wrestling dot net's. 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Oh, this was better because it doesn't get any worse. I hate that other one that much I i. just I'm sorry, that's just me so anyway. Go ahead, go ahead. Go Okay What do you? They're going to go with a? Season to. I'm sure it was the question. Where do you think they're headed in here? In season to a benefits team, you know honestly I don't think they know. I mean it looks like they're giving I affectionately refer to him as you like. Packer would the big monster push and he's undefeated at this point You know what I was thinking about today. If the pros poll is fifty percent and the fan, voting is fifty percent. Does this mean we're going to get tight end the season, 'cause. How bad would that be you know? I mean they could sold it by now. At the store to show, and then having actually wrestle for it might be fun, but you know I, I'm not sure I think right now. It's probably just you know they're gonNA. Keep doing what they're doing with the ball and then make him the the pet of the the WANNA be beautiful people and they're going to try to protect cottonwood to some extent because of his size. But I think you know I I know people want me to say Michael mcgillicuddy because he's having son I'm sorry, but if he was not if his last name was Smith. I don't think anyone's taking this seriously right now. I don't see him getting this big monsters. Push out of it. I think it's if you're looking at. This is a shoot I think he would have to be. or Alex, Riley or the two guys that really stand out so far. I will go all I'm works. I would have to go. What do you think chances are of NFC to taken over smackdown when they're done the first thing they roll? Can they reproduce a single twice as them? I hope they don't. They don't want her down like that I would be okay if they say some of the you know we. We all expect at some point, the current access group. There's going to be a couple of defectors Justin Gabriel justice. All longest is a baby I could see him and. You know maybe. The Guy who looks like region Red Tyler Oh I know. Oh, he's a regiment Tyler Stephan Bader from USC. Yeah, he's slater's I could see him maybe getting phased out of this and maybe. Look is from the current season to the current next mix, but I think you're also going to see that you know a moment where they try to recruit some of them. Some of them reject him and that starts to. So I think it's more likely you're. GonNa see a couple of editions, and then maybe even some kind of a program where it's some of the current season. Guys fighting off the next or something like that I. Think is more likely. Anything else. No. That's keep me on hold. Like that. good. Thanks for your call all right Let's go back to the phone lines here. Air Code. Dot Two zero one. Thanks for calling. Please state your name and where you're from. Chris New Jersey our good. How're you doing? Everything's good everything's good WanNa. Switch gears I with a ring of honor I mean they got the hd. contracting the national TV show, and since that's happened and I. Guess I Kinda also happened with leaving whatever I mean. Do. You think this we anywhere to grow I'm fan but I. Love it, but it's just a I can go into their shows for since they opened just like the same amount of people, they're probably the same people. Do you think they could ever grow as a company or this is? Jason Go ahead and take that I I think you know the Internet, only pay per view. Concept is something. They're probably ahead of their time on, I mean it's certainly not the first to do it, but I think that is more realistic at this point as an area, they can grow I. I can't even remember who the author was, but I think it was You know someone from our wage. in May have even been carry himself saying that they really didn't need that. Many vice to break even on this and. So. That's an area where they can grow. They're not really focusing on the DVD's. If you watch the TV, show I I've always thought it mistake not to. Even if they've they've decided that. DVD isn't really the way to make this business grow. He'll focus on one DVD every couple of weeks or something really try to drive sales for that individual DVD I think Kinda. Stuck in limbo almost with hd net just because hd net. It just isn't taking off I think they're really hopeful that that will happen and they'll be. Beef up their program. It'll be more is on HD net in general, and that will help them, but You know it's I. I think the last most recent pay per view did I better numbers than the previous attempts they didn't so. You're not losing money, or in this case they're making money and so that's encouraging. Chris go ahead comments on that. no I mean. I it's interesting that maybe the you know. The HD channel itself really doesn't have the backing, or or even going in the right directions, but it's interesting to think that if they do. I guess Mark Cuban pump some money into the channel I. Mean you interesting ever featured Library of honor special? Did some advertising trying to do something I mean just take something step to let other people see it. Yeah that myself you know. They do a lot of live shows and things like that I wouldn't think it would be a major reach for him to do something like that with our wage, but my guess is that are which, and this is pure speculation, but my guess is that they're not doing the type of ratings even hd, and that's level to to justify the expense. I'm sure I would love to ones because I think. You would get people more likely to tune in for and give away chance, even if they're not familiar with the product, and you would for a show on Monday nights eight, generally two months in advance and it just it doesn't seem all that exciting. I. Know I've been reading. The newsletter says ninety four. Stuff thanks much support I. Really do appreciate it. You got guys speech bigger. Jason thanks for carrying things within kind of distracted. You're trying to multitask unfortunately a technical issue song, and it's keeping your on the show and keep it moving, but throaty a little bit more than usual, which well thrill some listeners, probably all right, let's go. Let's go to Eric Oh two one four man. It's all starts with two today. That's where I won four year on the shelf teacher named from. This is Kinda. Dallas Kevin how you doing? Great quick question to start out with I don't know if. He noticed, but the ring ropes and ring posts on raw for the past month, or so have been painted white and the first time since the new or I guess is the past ten years or so that they have been the ring road rent. They're doing that to make changes. Look with Pale. Well. Honestly, that's not a bad theory I you know I. Although his Gimmick is being image are man as or a block of cream cheese, although I think block cream, cheese has more pigment than he does. Not Mean it's just a fact I think, but no I you know I didn't notice. Usually have an eye for those things Jayson to do know I. didn't even pick up on that the only thing I can think of, is it? They didn't want to make it look like they were supporting the Russians in the world. Cup that's what's missing seriously. What are the Russians in this World Cup? Wrestling, soccer is that you get people into hockey because of the Russians Russians. You need some like anti-communist. Even though they're you know whatever come on, we back get the Russians in their. Let 'em she wasn't become. World's dominant power, and and more Americans will care about the World Cup got underway. He'll man whatever happened to the and I hate to joke about anything like this, but what happened in the old days when the enemies we're fighting and war had sports teams. Good point well I mean. North Korea does the best part is they won't show highlights of anything that is not positive for their team or television, and they got smoke seven nothing so I. Never did hear if they just pretend like the game didn't happen or what they did. That's funny. Well Anyway. Kevin anything else. Yeah I just wanted to looking at the NFC season. Too I think overall. The wrestlers rookies have more charisma than season one but If looking at making a prediction about tonight's vote, I'd say it's probably a toss up between lucky cannon, and he like would bringing up number eight. Jason. What do you think what's? What's the prediction for tonight Oh boy, they haven't really done Husky Harris any favors by knocking him. Either and cody's been the all out. He'll on doing a really good job, so maybe Husky gets a little bit of You know if you know just takes. Takes, the heat for cody and and doesn't get any votes. I'm not sure but Gosh cotton would be and. I it just, it's I hard time talking about the next. T because you don't know how they're approaching it I mean let's keep in mind. Bryan Danielson Daniel Bryan was own seven yet was leading the competition and the pros poll last time it. They don't I. Don't think they know what they're formulas and I just have a real hard time taking seriously. I wonder if the person who gets the least amount of TV time is the one who's going to be typically voted out or if like. You know if you guys are saying there's GonNa be some clues about you know the TV. Time will come on as a very. It's like the guy. Star Trek, who had never seen before, but all of a sudden he got camera time. You know he's GonNa die. REDSHIRT. Yeah, there, you go, yeah. which carried over the loss by the way? I don't know if yes. They did out and how many people picked up on that, but they definitely lost everyone who wanted a lost reference. You can take your shot now anyway asked meet I'm not going to sneak them in come on. Kevin anything else. That's it. Thanks very much appreciate it if you're interested in VIP, membership w torch as Kevin just said the. U., R. L., the go to Twu torch dot com slash kgo VIP. That's PW torch dot com slash kgo VIP Jason. We should take this moment to plug your website also and your membership site. Why don't you go with that? Absolutely I don't over to pro wrestling, dot, net and for those of you haven't seen it yet. You will find out that there was a big wwe. Over the weekend, which I'm sure, we'll talk about and also on the members side of things. It's an ad version of the site. If you're in audio, what you? Obviously, there's a ton of it Every pay per view every wash show usually a couple of them even and also weekly Qna's where we just answered member questions those tend to last about an hour each and we do a couple of each week, and then the dot net weekly audio show as well, and you'll get the first look at news yesterday before. Posting anything on the on the at based in the site, the members had the I look at the entire rundown of the matches for the impact tapings yesterday, not just the ones they advertise on the website, but the actual full list of matches, and so members were always getting the first look at news, and again it's the ad free version of the site, and you can sign up for as cheap as five dollars and fifty cents a month. If you take the annual option and all you have to do for that as head on over to pro wrestling dot net, and look for the sign up page, and you can get on there almost instantaneously. Wrestling fans are you that person that works in a pro wrestling reference to every aspect of your life well, we're those kind of people to, but we do so with mixed martial arts I'm Robert via host of enemy. Top for pro wrestling advanced every Monday on pw torches daily cast lineup. Not only do we cover every you have see tour event. We provide context. That testing would really understand I mean we're the type of people that if? If you ask us about how much of a mess middleweight title situation is were likely to reference WCW in the early nineties. Think of us as a podcast for casual MMA. Fence done by hardcore wrestling nerves, and you could find us by searching pw torching apple podcasts or any popular podcast. Abbott and we're always available on demand at peak w torch, CASS DOT com where you could check out the entire lineup of the PD matured daily cast. Let's get back to the phone lines and go to Where do we go to one fourth last one, so we will go to Let's not do to Eric. Let's do a five year five six two. You're on the life cast. Please state your name and where you're from. Oh some. Guys doing today. Joe, where are you your Jason? And where are you from? Rate I'm sorry, Ray from Long Beach California. My phone's breaking the during the day doing great. Yeah, what's online today? hear from you know. Trying to head out to Las Vegas this weekend and I was just thinking you know. I got some tickets to see lessening Kirwin and I'm a college or whatever his name is no way you don't get to say. You have tickets to the biggest MMA five, maybe ever and not know the last name of one of the guys in the moments that should. Evoke. Let me tell well. Let me just tell you this out of respect for and I. Think you can respect the rest of the industry I used to work at Cosco Nice to hear a lot of people tell me Oh, I hope listener brings his wwe championship belt to the ring when he gets his ass. Sorry focusing on your life cast. And then. And I I used to hear them say that, and I used to hear them constantly put down brock listener, and then now I said you know what when Rock, Metzner, dominates sports I'm not GonNa know anybody on that roster. US. Rampage your household name, but when it takes over, everyone else won't matter and here's my question to you guys today. In ten years. Iraq lesnik continues to dominate the sport of USC, and he's already dominated the sport of wwe and pro wrestling. Just period amateur every kind of any kind of fighting for that. You think she'll be better than Bruno. San Martino in ten years. If you Raines with three USC Championships for ten years. What do you mean better than Bruno, Sammartino? Well I can't compare. Because ones was was dominated. The pro-russian industry and one's dominating the brand new sport. You know that wasn't around at the time of you. Know Bruno San Martino, but just dominating in the championship reign. meany always champion for like you're just years so for his era. Will he like comparing the two? Because no one's ever get Johnston Whole Cogan Austin. They're never going to compare Bruno. San Martino. Obviously Vince has to have somebody win. Somebody lives for marketing, purposes but USC. This is real in can hold onto the belts for like you know. Pretty Much I. would say came ten years about Bruno San Martino title, so would you compare to? Would you just say you know US's ESPN WWW athletes www? I would say they're such different areas. It's it's really difficult to make a comparison and you're mixing sports Brian hoops in this week's pursing torch newsletter. He does a weekly full-page columnist. Algae News and Hall of fame, and reviews the on-demand wwf wwe round table discussions, and in this week's issue, he writes about The Bruno Sammartino debate and and discussion of where he falls in history and people in that in that discussion. was among them Michael Hayes saying that that the fact that he kind of is an active in pro wrestling and so negative towards it. You know really does hurt his legacy so I'm just throwing that out there. If you haven't read thirty, be sure to check out Brian hoops. Call him on that because San Martino name is in the news this week. Jason. I guess I'll throw to you on that I. Don't want to lead you in any direction. You just can't compare I would be far more impressive. Rock Lizard managed to hold onto an actual title that has fought over then I would Bruno's year reign I mean no disrespect Bruno but I don't even know that brock listener gets through Saturday night as champion. Let alone ten years. Let's not get you out of ourselves. I I agree with that I. Mean I I. Do you a pick for Saturday night said. Um you know I I haven't actually really set in stone yet. I mean it's. It's normally if if I normally take lessner, but it's just that whole physical ailment, and just not knowing what Brock Leser. You'RE GONNA, get but Carlin's got those dangerous hands man, it's it's GonNa. Be Hell to fight him actually going to be putting up a pro a poll here. I wanted to say pros bowl. As we're doing this in about ten minutes on the website, asking pro wrestling dot net readers they think are GonNa win the fight. I'm leaning listener, but Gosh I. mean this. This one's a toss up. I would not bet on this flight. Let's put it that way that that's what I believe. I was talking to Bruce. Mitchell about this in an audio and I. Just say this is one of those fights. Were you? Can't if you if you speak with confidence and what's going to happen in this fight? You are not you don't understand the fight game because there's just way too many variables. I mean okay. If you're a super super super expert, you've been to both training camps. Who studied their tapes? You you? You know you're just like at the very top level. I'll listen to you. You know frantically. Tour wants to make a pick I'll listen to them. you know that type of thing? But if you're just an average fan and you're real confident. One guy's GonNa win over the other okay. You got a shot to be right, but it doesn't mean you knew you were going to be or that. You know you re. Just, so many people are going to be wrong with that information. It is such a toss up. There's just still limited information broadcast, and so long, and the health issues could play into it. Carwin has great out power. We haven't seen Brockett hit before by anybody with any kind of power. Close to Carwyn. It's just it's a fascinating battle between the listener who was a? A wrestler car win a better striker, more power, a lot of setting factors and this one I, I'm I'm intrigued attack by it, but yeah, I have no idea who's GonNa Win I'm picking Brock. If I had to pick somebody 'cause, I'm Kinda taking him until he gives me a reason not to, but I'm not gonNA. Be Shocked if it doesn't work out. Yeah I, mean I. Think If rockets on the ground it's business as usual ground and pound, and and if he can't if Collin can keep on his feet, I mean he's got a heck of a chance to to knock off Leshner. It's going to be a really play with a ton of build up into a problem. You know it. It has a potential to be one of those flights that ends up going two minutes and frustrates everybody well, you know there was a pretty cool fight on Saturday that went two minutes and people weren't. About that, it was pretty interesting. I wasn't I was happy as can be, were you? Happy to. Go Down, yes, just a minute or and the guy's obviously an awesome fighter, but I just so tired of you know. Oh, he's clearly number one when he won hasn't been fighting anybody and he hasn't looked impressive, not fighting anybody. Yeah, fate or We'll move off Obama. May We don't WanNa? Drive non-impact people who go to us to not have to listen to Ma Taco too crazy but it is listener, so it's relevant, but the fate or think I. The thing about. I don't know that he ever looked super impressive. You know this isn't vitor. Belfort who to charges across the ring when he was a female skirt, just Bang Bang Bang not people out. It's not you know this this majestic you know there's this majestic hoist gracie where you're just like. Wow, look what he just did. I can't believe. Saito Sater's always been kind of like. That happen. You know he's so so Sullen in his body language, and and and still I don't know I've never. It's not like you. Look at them now and go. He's half the half the man who used to be. He's just always kind of approach fights that way with kind of a an understated fighting spirit, but he's a fascinating character I. Love this quote up the fight, which is one cannot stand up. who wasn't knockdown something to that effect and you know. He took the loss like it matter to him, but he also took it like a man. You know it wasn't. Go the translation was much better than ran. Range sings translation last night. I just took it back to rush. What did you think of that angle by the way I didn't care? I'm just like. Why are they doing this? If they I seriously, if this out to and I don't think it is Let's say this is like planting the seeds for Ranjin Singh being anonymous raw. Oh My. There's not I. Don't know that there's a character I like less than his character. There's just something about him the way he especially since they turn baby face, and maybe he'd be veterans. He'll I just have a problem with baby-faced managers period, but especially him just walking out with that goofy smile, and it's just it's just. He's so tone deaf to the tone you if you're a manager, baby, face or heel, and he just looks like yeah I I I'm not. I am not a fan of that and I'm stammering at the thought of him. Being that that's not cross my mind to Jason and there's a lot of I and when it goes on and wwe whenever you see. Dave Kapoor Aka Ranjit, Singh or Big Dick. Johnson on TV because they're both creative team members, and they both raw extra pay for that and so It's other writers roll their eyes, and certainly the talent rolls her eyes, and I just said. Get the Guy Off TV. Let's go back to the phone lines and change the subject here you go nine. Thanks for holding. Please state your name and where you're from. Obvious. Hey Hey. I'm doing good how you don't have A. I'm doing okay. Yes, I got Quick. Question from last week. I think we got cut off about you know okay the things will work out if you've been you know a push like a world champion in the CROCK era. So? What's your question? About staying. On why they never get you know. Put The bill crocodile era. Well he? He had the big match with flair and eighty eight. And I know that he didn't just kind of marching through it in my head, so he wanted he had the big match in March of Eight. Then he won the title in Ninety Ninety even. Nineteen One He wanted the night. It wasn't just. You know I don't know that you can give them too hard of a time i. mean it's so. It took two years in two months. I mean that with a different era and it was ric flair. We're talking about. And sting was young and green at that point, and the idea of going with somebody before they were ready I think that showed a decent amount of patience. Jason. You remember that era and thinking stinks should have had the title sooner. Remember the air and I I at that time probably wanted to capture the title, but looking back on it I. Mean I'm a big believer in. There's money in the chase and they probably made a lot of good money at the house. show that chase. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of my thing I. Don't think it was political. I think it was philosophical. They said well seventh eighth title. Let's do this the right way. And you know it's also mentioned work and stingiest wasn't. He wasn't ready to deliver at that point, I mean that company was based on Work Right? We're seeing cartoon, wrestling and WWF at the time and with with WCW. They really fancy themselves. As that work ran instead in the main events, even unless it was against Flair, all the time just wasn't gonNA. BE ABLE TO HOLD UP, yeah! Yeah next Lugar collect at the time. You know they want them to be the next Hogan for Louis working. The thing was yeah. No you're right. You're right about that Hannibal I, mean He Luger? Was I think because of the similarity to Hogan I. Don't know They wanted that he was always. It was for sure part of the body, and it's looking everything they had their to it. was you know if you lived through? That era is a fan. There was a real you know deal with Alexa. Do you go with sting? That question was asked a lot and there was a real I think push for staying among among most people who thought he had the bigger upside, but I do think management cited a little bit more with Luger and I'm trying to think if you think from. MEMPHIS. And Luger came from Florida I. Think if there are any political reasons that would have gone that way I'm not. You wwl probably every two. I heard that they didn't want to push. Guys, yeah I think you're pro I think. Probably there is maybe a little bit of a hometown mentality which was Lexi with our guys. Thing came from from Bill Watts's mid south group so they may want. They may have wanted to Paul. I'd Lugar if all other things. Regal anything else Hannibal. To I got some report about you know But bleacher report stating there and you know that it Dixie. Carter's in a really strong You know really strong to try and get and Paul Heyman there in I. WanNa put you know It on your side of Eric Bischoff on production. You know. To do that's what he's trying to say something. ACURA recital whatever I Jesus. What is the latest on Paul, Heyman, Dixie Carter, Eric Bischoff the politics. There I, not I I don't know saying it was. Her. bleacher reports a pretty wide statement. Because just about anybody can write for that. It's not like there's a vetting process that I know so I'm not quite sure how much how much to put into that. But what? What? What are you here, Jason on Paul and situation there nothing no major updates at this point. He's working on two books and. And you know certainly they have spoken, and she has interest, and she gave me that quote about her. You know would like to work with him some day as a fan of his work essentially, but you know I I really think they're going to have to in order to get Hayman I think they would have to give up a lot of control and I wasn't willing to do that for Jim. Ross and I don't know that she's going to be willing to do that for all aiming. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's keep going through phone calls I. Think Hannibal for Your Call. To air. Code seven seventy four. Thanks for calling. Please state your name and where you're from. This is Dave from Pittsburgh and Dave? Thanks for calling. What's up? I had a question for you. Guys This is totally off the topic of what you've been talking about today, but since let's say nineteen eighty five wrestlemainia one what productwise what has been the worst. Time I guess for the WWF wwe. since wrestlemania want. The worst era, yeah, go ahead Papa John go where it made me just stop being a fan for a while I would tune in occasion, which is never been. My Mo I always. Watched, religiously whether I was covering wrestler, not and that Arrow was just the whole ultimate warrior, Papa, Sean, go, and some of the other stuff they had going on. Just turn me off completely when I see war. You're doing the vomit routine. It was just so bad it was unwatchable. Yeah. That was pretty bad. I mean there was some it was just it. They were trying to find themselves at that point, and they really didn't know who they were yet. I? It was just yeah. That was an awkward time I didn't like the early two thousand smackdown era. The whole Heidenreich Kansas Zouqi was a post brand split a lot of the focus on raw. Lauren night is took over and tried to put his stamp on things he and Stephanie but man I think we're pretty dangerous. Pair early on and it you know Paul and made smackdown good, but there was a time where where Lauren item. Stephanie's fingerprints really made that show. unpleasant to have sit through and report on that. Well that was also the time they can't for the life remember his name, but I'm trying to think of it since you brought it up, but there was a writer they wanted to do all these crazy gimmicks with I think it was Zucchini mentioned was going to be like this. The son of here or grandson of euro heat or there was all sorts of. Crazy comic book like ideas. This guy had that. They kinda started pushing. And then I don't know if quit, or they just came to their senses, but they stopped. Yeah Yeah, what do you think? Dave I'M Nineteen ninety five maybe from King of the ring through before survivor series of when King Mabel like this one King of the ring and Then ended up being bending summer swim that you're against diesel I thought that was was pretty lame, but at the same time that the. Show michaels and Razor Ramon fought in a ladder match, which was good, but As far as my opinion goes, I would say middle to. Middle Nineteen Ninety five would would probably be much. Yeah! Yup I that that wasn't great either. All right well. If you want to chime in on that question that day brought to you know. What was your least favorite era you know? When did you start watching? And was there a time that they just drove your way? We'd be interested in that. When you become a VIP member one of the perks we don't talk a lot. About are the back issues. Every week we drop another twenty years ago back issue on our website. You can read it in pdf and all text format in early two thousand. It was a fascinating time. That's when the radicals jumped from w. w to the WWF. You can read all the behind the scenes details as that story developed week after week, also the launch of the xfl. What was my take on that story and the debut of the new league plus analysis of the early ratings, also my exclusive feature-length one on one interview with the Rock. dwayne Johnson the longest insider interview he has. Done with journalist, check that out with VIP membership, also my roster evaluations with depth charts for W W W W and C W, as two thousand, kicked off, plus the latest controversies behind the scenes and W W, including a cover story on how Hogan was damaging morale fascinating behind the scenes details on what was going on again contemporaneous, well sourced detailed reporting on so many behind the scenes happenings in w. w. and the WWF at that time, so vip and check out those stories right now, pw torch dot, com slash go VIP. That's PW torch dot com slash KGO VIP a new issue from the year two thousand drops on its twentieth anniversary every weekend. We're talking about the other day. The mystery GM or the anonymous GM I'll I'll put my two cents on that. Yeah, since I don't get to call in and what I actually think it will end up being Michael It might seem kind of obvious, but I don't know it's just that five. It's going to be Michael just away presents himself as he's reading. The emails and whatnot say that. That's what I think. That was it. Mike Cover editorial in this week's newsletter. made the case for that. You know and I think the way he is reading these letters. It seems like he's pretty vested in and people. Listening to what's being said and. And it storyline wise. They could even play up the whole. The whole situation Bryan Danielson Day Brian and make that work to Jason What what are what who you want to be the the the repeal GM. candidates that we can think of and and where does Michael in there. You know certainly in that mix is that she would mean Jim Ross. We come back play by play. Guy The idea as well. We're going to give Josh Mathews. A shot likes I like US I. think that's right I listened to him before todd before Todd Grisham these days. I am not there, but it's neither one Jim. Ross know not even rods, and so you know that would certainly be a bonus for coal is doing a good job. I thought last night. He really did not just reading that, but also just kind of given the updates from ringside. He didn't have the best material to work with, but he really does seem like he's focused on this angle and and enjoying it so if I'm fine with that, but as far as a favorite goes. I boy, I mean I. Don't know that it would have the reaction with the casual fans that the net fans, but with all this talk about Heyman going to TNA. The. Young guys in this invasion angle we. We kinda fun if it were Paul Heyman pulling the strings behind all this, but again I just don't know how that would work with casual fans I think the net fans would love it, but with there'd be this big collective grown for casual fans out there. Yeah? That's a good question and I. I guess part of what I think should be done. Do you WanNa for that surprise of Oh great? They got this they got. This guy is the GM. You want that first reaction that it's good. That's a good reveal, but you also want people in a month or two months later to go. I'm glad that he turned out to be the GM. You want it to be good at what he does. It does Paul having 'em to be a performer and do that. It's it's hard in it, you know. Would that work well, if so then good, but if not then you know, no, don't do it just for the pop. Well and I don't think they would get the pop. I I'm kind of looking at it differently, yeah! Haymond you would get from a certain group, and then there'd be other people who would be like. How does this fit in I? Think there'd be a lot of kids going. WHO's this guy for I but I also think like you say three months down the road. I think Heyman is a good performer that he'd be able to make it work people. Initially, the casual pants might initially look at it as a down, but in the end you know. I think he could talk. Talk his his way through just about anything, so. I think he'd be a really good salesman for. Yeah Yup. I agree with that. All right. Let's keep through phone calls here day. thinking, appreciate it Please call again. the number here by the way. Do you want to get through on? The phone? Lines is six, four, six, seven, two, one, nine, eight, two, eight. It's six, four, six, seven, two, one, nine, eight, two, eight I'm wade teller of pro wrestling torch, newsletter and P. W Torch Dot. Com and I'm joined today by Jason Powell of pro wrestling dot net. Be sure to check out both websites for. For Daily News Headlines Commentary and analysis updated every day all the time, also, if your enemies fan, we talked a little bit about that today. Be Sure to check out our sister site m. m a torch dot com, that's enemy, torch, dot, com Jamie Penick, covering all angles of the lessner. Shane Carwin fight and also last Saturday stunning upset fate, or now has a legit loss on his record. Changes on the lineup on the undercard for Saturday's upcoming show, predictions fight analysis. What listeners saying press conferences participant Shane Carwin is saying all kinds of good stuff. Check it out every day and I may torch is updated fulltime, and it's also a free iphone APP so and and I should mention to Jason. This applies to your website to does the sites are customized for all cell phones? So if you don't have an iphone and a lot of you blackberries and you've got android. Phones and all kinds of like all platforms. The sites are customized for for smartphones to so if you log on to pw. Torch Dot, com, anime torch DOT, com Jason Your sites same thing wrestling dot net on your cell phone's browser on your smartphone browser. It's GonNa. Bring up a web. Customize version for your phone, so some people may not know that it'll give you a choice. Do you want to watch the web version or the smartphone version and I just choose the phone person and it'll be much more friendly. To hear coach nine one to please state your name and where you're from this is marcus from them. Marcus thanks for calling if you can't speak up a little bit and a little trouble hearing you. What happened to say yes for. Good question I them. Your guesses as good as mine I I just I don't think they're using on TV. Right now I think it's as simple as that I haven't. trying to think if seen his name pop up in dark matches or were on superstars. Maybe you know my guess is. He just hasn't been getting over I. Haven't heard anything about an injury or anything like that. Yeah, it's one of those guys he disappears. And you Kinda. You might not notice, and then you think oh I thought there was potential there for him. You know I hadn't seen enough to be confident. You know if he's not getting pushed. It s that's a good thing for both you when I. Look into Jason See if there's something behind him, not being featured on smackdown lately. Yeah I I think he's worth investing and given a chance to, but like I said maybe management saw something. How shows that or something behind the scenes that led to them Kinda? Cool on him. A little bit is a better answer for you market. All. There because. They. Liberal! Be One of the. Pros, even he. Started? Off the. Well I think we got a question to to ask about test roundabout your Russian. Markets we'll try to dress that on a future show or on the website itself checkout, probing dot, net or PWS Dot Com for an answer later on. Let's go to Air Code One. One One please state your name and where you're from. One one, can you hear? We can barely hear you. If at all, so let's I guess move on. Let's give five on another. Chance here I five online nine. If you turn down the background noise. Please state your name and where you're from. Yeah Hey. I don't that noise was so. No problem you're good now. All right I. Don't know if you got mentioned, but I know he was in the main event last night. It was great, but. John Morrison I. Mean He's got their look. They look for him. He's in the ring. Just watch DVD and some put on a mazing match on smackdown of all shows with Jeff. Hardy wise. You're not being used properly, I guess. What what the Path morthen it looked like on smackdown that he was going to get a big push, and they've definitely cooled on him. What do you think is up with that? You know I I continue to say there's just something that's not clicking. He is mid card. Act Right now. I don't think they're wrong and pushing them that way I think he needs gimmick overhaul You know being a John Morrison? Wannabes only going to get you so far. I think he needs to let his real. Well I actually afraid to say I I thought he would be helpful for him. He could let his real personality shine through, but it seems like when he does. It's just really weak jokes and so I. Just don't think they've found the right role for him just yet. Yeah. I say regarding more than that. I'm a little bit more of a fan of most people are I think I. Think the one of the hits on him behind the scenes that be and they don't use this language, but when he wrestled doesn't look like he's in a fight sometimes, he looks like he's doing a performance. He's a little too pretty and Promo wise. I'm a little bit more of a fan of his. I think most people, but I think his promos get held against him. I think. There's a certain limit their to what he can do. I think there's no doubt when you look at the Morrison race that for awhile more simple to had, but Jason. It's safe to say. Ms Has has Latin at this point in terms of who you bet on the main event to the future. Yeah absolutely and don't get me wrong. I think there is a lot of potential there John Morrison and like I say it's just a matter of really finding that right niche for him and finding that like character forum and I personally thought he was closer with Johnny. Nitro than I do with John Morrison. Yeah I I'm with you on that I. Don't know at this point though if he hasn't had so much exposure pretty odd to give him a completely new new name and Gimmick once again. Maybe just shy away from. His look is a little over the top. And and and I guess it works for with some people but I. I don't know maybe just shy away from the John Morrison Hair, and all that kind of stuff, and and try to fresh ended up somehow I. Just I've never quite put my finger on what it is. That's missing, but something is missing there. Yeah Yeah anything else rose I think. We'll go ahead. I think it's almost like. It's almost like the RV D like syndrome. Like sometimes you put some great matches, but he's coming nonchalant attitude around the May work against. Yeah, yeah, I think that sense of urgency that sense of being in a fight, their sense of something being on the line, instead of going I look good and I'm going to perform a cool move, and the move may not look like it hurts, but. But boy was I doing it and you know you gotTa Watch out for for that I. Think once you get once. That becomes reputation that maybe that's what you you know. That's how you perform. I think people start looking for that in your style and it can really you know they'll start picking apart weaknesses in your style if you have a rep for not looking like you're actually. Trying to win, I thought that. You know that's a good analogy. With Roxanne. Damn Carlito I. Thought was terrible when it came to that. I felt like he really needed to to To look more like he was fighting. Not Performing and it's a fine line. It's an intangible, but it's type. Thing looks for you know if you WANNA. Get fans engaged in what you're doing. You've got to do that. I should sneak into I. Don't know if there's an issue now, but the fact that he's been with Molina on off. She had a lot of backstage heat and you never know some of that's trickled down to him. That's a real good point to bring up that stuff you know you sit here and you scratch your head over things sometimes, and you have to realize sometimes the reason guys aren't getting pushed nothing to do with anything. We'll sit here and analyze from watching on TV. Unfortunately, you know it has to do with something completely different. All right jared anything else. Thanks guys. Go VIP. That thanks very much. Harley remember the days when women's wrestling matches were relegated to the mid card, dumping ground and treated like glorified intermission. You mean the era when it was only men in the top spots in the Fed's get in the biggest matches. Yeah! Seriously while we might have a long way to go, really have come a long way Davey, and that's why we started grit and glitter. CAST covering the best in the world of women's wrestling from the horsewoman wwe to the goddesses of startup and everyone in between each Tuesday emily myself and our team of guest correspondence talk the best matches and the biggest news in women's wrestling. Plus interviews deep dies, and in discussions about everything for media representation to gear to women behind the scenes ropes, just search P. Debbie torch, and the PODCAST APP of your choice to subscribe or listen on demand and see the entire pw torch schedule at W.. TORCH CAST DOT COM. The number six, seventy, one, nine, eight, two, eight out of three minutes I'm GONNA try a couple of callers who didn't come through right away. Before nine three one. Are you there? Hello, yeah, Hey, nine three months. Please state your name and where you're from. Hey, this is you're supposed to. You Know Oh. That's my mistake, no wonder. All right now. I'm on see. This is what happens when you try to multitask. I've taken less notes than usual during the show. Trying to other think here Eric would one one one Please state your name and where you're from. Yeah you. Yeah I'm trying here I'm trying some of these people I think. Push push the button that they want to be on that. They WANNA call, but they actually don't. all right well down to two minutes Jason and I think we ran through looking at my notes here. All the callers everyone on, hold me party gone to so if you WANNA, get through in the last two minutes. Call now. We'll get you on the show right away, Let's look at the raw ratings from last night's show. The show did a three point three rating. That's a drop off from last week's three point five. They had a sense of momentum for a while there because they went. I mean this is the six week track record was on May twenty four. It was three, one, then three, two, three, three, three, four, three, five, and now drop down to a three point three last night. What what do you think that has to do with Jase? Why would the rating go down this week? know maybe there's something to factor a couple of title changes at the fatal four way pay per view that perhaps boosted some interest. Maybe the NFC thing is cooling off. Maybe there wasn't as much interest in the anonymous general managers I thought there might be You know who knows I, just I. Oh, you know what I I know there was. A big episode of I think the Bachelor, the Bachelorette, whatever that reality show is on last night then. Maybe that's a factor, too. Yeah I'm not sure what the crossover audiences between those two. Though yeah, I don't know I. Just Jonny Fairplay was was urging me to. Be are for it because there was something pro wrestling related on the show. Some major character on the show has been working to, and it's also we can become a pro wrestler, and then I forgot the DVR, so I was not one of the people watching that show. Yes, or even live or on-demand. You weren't one of them being right exactly. Yeah, I think UH. I think three three is still not a bad place to be right now. Given where it looked like the trend was going. I don't think anybody should be too upset about that, but it does show maybe a little cooling off instead of building up You know a building up of the go. Anyway. We did someone call so I want to fulfill my promise. Put Him on the air right away. I Eric Four eight zero. please state your name and where you're from. And Waiting Jason. It's FM from Phoenix Good. Thanks for calling what's up? real quick I think money in the bank was is going to be one of the better gimmick pay per views, but I was hoping that none of the big like Bela Stars Randy Orton edge wouldn't be in it, and you will get a couple of reporters from smackdown and raw. Maybe push for the next six months a year. That doesn't look like it's going to happen. Okay, twenty seconds. Seconds left Jason good question Efren We could talk more about the review, and maybe we will in the after show the way the lineup. They can shave real short answer. Do you like that? There's big names in the money in the bank or would you rather have it be the mid card I think it makes a lot of sense if you're trying to sell the paper to have I also think that there's nothing saying this has. Been, helping took. If. You'd like to hear this show without ads and plugs interrupting. There's one thing you can do right now to make that happen. That has become a POW torch P member. 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Back issues as soon as you become VIP member, the January first two thousand back issue headlines with a length torch talk with Iraq my exclusive one on one QNA with the Rock, talking about his career and some comments that raised some eyebrows. You see what I did. There also the next week it was Terry Funk, being named commissioner of WCW that was a cover story plus a ton of behind the scenes happenings in w. w including Goldberg's injury, and the plan returns of Ho Cogan and Rick Flair then January, Fifteenth, two thousand cover story featured Steve Austin switching doctors right before major neck surgery, the January, twenty second two thousand edition, featured a cover story of a week of major changes in w. w including Vince Russo, being demoted Chris while winning the world title, and then being stripped of it and requests by a number of wrestlers to be released from their contracts. And then after that we detailed the following week on January twenty ninth cover story, Chris Vanua Eighty Guerrero de Milenko and Perry Saturn heading to the WWF. Then February fifth two thousand issue features Eddie Guerrero, suffering a serious injury in his first wwe match and details of the debut of the radicals plus the May young nudity controversy. It's what I had to say about that. Also that featured annual in-depth WCW roster depth chart. The February. Twelfth issue featured a cover story on the launch of the xfl, and how it was following e C W's approach plus my annual C W, roster ranking and the annual most influential list who had the most power behind the scenes and professional wrestling, then a cover story on how W W blue and opportunity to win over new fans with the unopposed nitro, when raw was preempted, that was the February nineteenth two thousand cover story also details in the newswire on Scott Hall's conduct overseas and Shane Douglas being fired. The February twenty six two thousand issue features cover story on Hogan as W W more row buster. We took you behind the scenes with source reporting on what Hogan's doing behind the scenes to really bring down morale in WCW. Also my editorial examining Vince McMahon's critical comments aimed at Mit Foley's wife. That just covers January and February every week. A New back issue from twenty years ago is posted, so go VIP and read fascinating authoritative well sourced behind the scenes details on professional wrestling in hard hitting editorials on the controversies. Controversies today go to POW TORCH DOT COM slash. GO VIP! That's POW TORCH DOT COM slash kgo. VIP and dive into our archives are over fifteen hundred back issues of the pro. Wrestling Torch Weekly newsletter with PDF's and altech versions, so you WANNA. Read it on your phone. Your tablet your laptop. 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