20 Episode results for "Randy Weaver"

Trailer: Introducing Standoff

Slate Presents: Standoff | What Happened at Ruby Ridge?

02:31 min | 2 years ago

Trailer: Introducing Standoff

"In late August, nineteen ninety two. Randy Weaver and his family were refusing to come down from the remote, Idaho mountain top where they lived Randy had sold to sawed off shotguns to a federal informant, and then missed a court date now the family's ramshackle cabin on. Ruby Ridge was surrounded by hundreds of federal agents and local police officers fugitive on a federal firearms charge has been holed up in a cabin near Naples for more than a year. They say Weaver is a white supremacist and claim he's heavily armed the government thought. Randy Weaver was dangerous possibly violent extremist. Randy and his wife Vicky thought the government was an agent of Satan on earth. The result was chaos. Look like a scene from Vietnam. You don't shoot and kill a cop and think you're gonna get away with it. It's kinda like cornering scared dog when it was all over three people were dead and the government had. Spent millions of dollars to catch one, man. So how did a man who was only charged with selling to saw shotguns, come to be the focus of such an enormous investigation and siege. And I'm still waiting twenty-six years later for somebody to try and explain to me why that was needed. I'm Ruth Graham. The host of the new podcast mini series standoff over four episodes. We'll find out why the siege at Ruby Ridge unfolded the way it did. And think about some of the questions that raises. What should we do about white supremacists? Why has the story of Ruby Ridge become an enduring myth for the far? Right. And whose fault was it? Anyway. He looks at us, and he just immediately breaks into tears, and he says killed my son the killed my wife, and there wasn't any reason for to this day. I just don't understand why Randy Weaver just didn't show up in court. Subscribe to standoff what happened at Ruby Ridge. And apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Look for the first episode on Tober thirty first.

Randy Weaver Ruby Ridge government Idaho Ruth Graham Vietnam Naples apple Vicky twenty-six years
1: Two Shotguns

Slate Presents: Standoff | What Happened at Ruby Ridge?

31:47 min | 2 years ago

1: Two Shotguns

"The following podcast contains explicit language. The first sign of trouble at Ruby Ridge was when the dog started barking the dog's name was striker and he belonged to a man called. Randy Weaver Weaver in his family lived on top of a rocky outcropping in a ramshackle cabin a few miles outside Naples, Idaho. There was no electricity or phone service and no indoor plumbing. Randy's wife. Vicki retreated to a shed when she was menstruating. They followed their own idiosyncratic, religious belief system and their view of the world tended toward paranoia. They thought America was secretly under the rule of cabal. They called Zog Zionist occupied government when striker started barking, the weavers followed maybe he'd caught the scent of a game animal, but they were wary because they lived in fear that they're isolated mountain. Homestead would come under attack by armed agents of the federal government. They were right. Six US marshals including several members of the agencies elite special operations group had arrived at the weavers property and striker had picked up there sent it was August twenty first nineteen ninety two a fugitive on a federal firearms charge has been holed up in a cabin near Naples for more than a year. They say Weaver is a white supremacist and claim he's heavily armed. The US marshals on the scene had been tasked with getting Randy Weaver off the mountain peacefully. That wasn't going to happen. A federal agent has been shot and killed in a confrontation with a fugitive north Idaho. Shots ring out near the home of Randy Weaver, federal authorities from all over the country planning their next move. John Allison news four. John Allison was a news reporter at a TV station in Spokane just across the Washington border. When he arrived on the scene, hundreds of representatives from local and federal agencies were setting up a command post about a mile from the cabin. We were starting to see an influx of military vehicles. Helicopters even a couple of armored personnel carriers. It is a stunning and overwhelming show of force. They were staging for a major effort major enterprise. And so I got word that a lot of this was coming in and staging at the airport in Bonner's ferry which was ten or fifteen miles to the north. So I took Taga for up to the airport, and it was fairly early in the morning and got up there, and it looked like a scene from Vietnam. And so I did a stand up from that airport that said something to the effect that you know, Randy Weaver was somebody who. Simply wanted to be left alone. But with the sudden appearance of military hardware, like this is one man stand against the law. Suddenly taking on the appearance of a full blown war. The weavers home at Ruby Ridge was under siege. The standoff lasted for eleven days and three people died in all including Vicki Weaver. Here's Mandy describing the moment. She was killed. He's speaking to a Senate subcommittee in nineteen ninety five. At the time, she was gunned down, she was helpless. She was standing in the doorway of her home. She was holding Alicia or ten month old baby girl inter arms as the bullet crashed through head. She slumped to her knees. We took the baby from Rhys she lay dead and bleeding on her kitchen floor. Take whatever. Whatever time you need, Mr. Weaver. Thank you. I'm not without fault in this matter. If I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now, I would make different choices. When the whole thing was over the government had spent millions of dollars to pursue one small case against one small man and would go on to spend millions more to fix its own mistakes. There would be a federal trial hearings in the US Senate and an investigation by the department of Justice. From slate podcasts. This is standoff. I'm your host Ruth Graham. How did a middle class family from Iowa end up on a remote, Idaho mountain heavily armed and facing down the FBI, and how did law enforcement agencies screw up a small potatoes? Criminal case so badly that they turned up paranoid. Nobody into right wing folk hero. It all started. When one guy sold another guy a couple of sod off, shotguns. Randy Weaver was born in a small town in Iowa in nineteen forty eight. He joined the army during the Vietnam war and pass the training required to join the elite special forces, but he ended up quitting before he made it overseas. Randy met Vicki Jordan Johnson in the late nineteen sixties Vicky was raised on a farm, and she was close to her father who followed a breakaway sect of Mormonism and was interested in prophecy and the end times after Vickie and Randy married. They sold Amway products to get by then Randy got a better job at a John Deere factory. Over time. Randy and Vicki became more. Interested in religion. They poured over bestselling book called the late great planet earth that found predictions of nuclear war in bible passages and warned that the end was near and they wandered pretty far from mainstream Christian teachings. They read only the King James version of the bible and started following Old Testament laws about things like eating unclean. Meet Randy hosted a raucous late night bible study that met at a local family restaurant, and they sent away for pamphlets comic books and tapes with titles like Satan's angels exposed. You know, for the weavers this America that they felt grown up with was disappearing and they were looking for some kind of answer. That's just Walter who covered Ruby Ridge for the Spokane spokesman review and later wrote a book about it. He said the weavers developed their own belief system finding prophecies in the Old Testament and signs of the coming apocalypse and current events the weavers distrusted, the Jews other minorities, the aluminum credit cards, and most churches, they both had visions about their future. And what God wanted them to do the family resisted labels at times? They didn't even call themselves Christians, but they were strongly influenced by a racist movement called Christian identity that was on the rise in the nineteen eighties. The idea behind Christian identity is that white people are the true people of God. And that a race war has to take place before the second coming of Christ. The sides of this religion that are truly damaging and truly dangerous. Are that people have color Africans are mud people that people we see is Jewish are the spawn of Satan. At some point the Weaver stopped talking about the imminent, apocalypse and started actively preparing for it in early nineteen Eighty-three they told reporter they believed the government was going to purposely create chaos as an excuse to institute, martial law and ultimately establish a one world government. They had begun stockpiling weapons, and canned food and most importantly, the family said they were planning to move out west they were looking in Colorado, Montana, Idaho. This was almost something that was driven by the voice of God himself. We had had beliefs that, you know. If there ever was a natural disaster or downfall of the government, or whatever we wanted to be separated from the rest of the world. We didn't want to be a part of it. Survival. You might call it. The family left Iowa that year and drove around the west in an old grain truck sleeping in motels and searching for land they could afford by. Then they have three children two daughters and a son Vicky said that God had made it known to her that the family was to have a place to live by September. Seventh nineteen Eighty-three they found their property in northern Idaho. Just under the deadline in a spot. Then known as caribou ridge Vicky wrote in her diary that when they drove up to the property. It was just what God had shown them. It would look like. The weavers built a cabin patching it together out of plywood and two by fours. The building was surrounded by thick woods and the families water came from spring about a quarter mile below the house the weavers lived like pioneers. They home schooled their children and taught them to use guns. They hunted gardened and canned and they loved, you know, living off the grid. They loved the lifestyle. And I think they they felt like they'd stumbled on the America that they set out to find. But the weavers idea of pastoral contentment was wrapped up in Pakalitha fantasy Randy told a neighbor before they even moved in armageddon's going to end on that hill. This episode is brought to you by care of a monthly subscription vitamin service that delivers completely personalized vitamin and supplement packs right to your door. I've always been so overwhelmed by the process of figuring out what kind of items I should be taking and what I actually need but care of fun online quiz asks you about your diet health goals and lifestyle choices. And it takes just about five minutes to find out what vitamins and supplements US Pacific. We need I loved the my results showed me a ton of information about the studies behind the recommendations for me, I found out ninety percent of people fall short of FDA recommended guidelines for at least one vitamin or nutrient Karimov's quiz can help you get the vitamins you need to get back on track and reach your health goals. There's also a ton of specialty offerings. They have vegan and vegetarian supplement options. And also offers pre and post Natal supplements with accompanying research to help mothers and babies. Say they're healthiest if you're busy care of delicious. Nutrient packed quick stick powders can be added to your monthly delivery for an extra easy boost. Wherever you need it. For twenty five percent off your first month of personalized care of vitamins. Visit take care of dot com and enter ridge. Our I d g e that's promo code ridge. For twenty five percent off your first month of personalized care vitamins at take care of dot com. More after this break. I'm Mary Harris. The host of slates new daily news podcast. What next then I have a question for you. Do you ever get a push notification or a news alert on Twitter and think no stop the news? I wanna get off. Then what next is the podcast for you. Each afternoon. We're going to break down that headline senior friends retweeting all day until you what matters dozen and what next just look for what next on Stitcher or wherever your podcasts. See you there. The Weaver family had moved to Idaho in part to get away from the reach of the federal government. What they didn't know was that the federal government was paying more and more attention to Idaho. Kootenai county in northern Idaho is home to some of the choices scenery and the best recreation in the west, but there is trouble in Kootenai county because this is also home for the white supremacist. Aryan nations church. A large group, but one regarded as quite dangerous by law enforcement agencies. The area nations church was an anti-semitic organization with connections to the same Christian, identity theology. The family had been attracted to Iowa calls himself, a church, but as leaders, preach hate believers who regard Adolf Hitler as one of their main profits. Blacks Jews as their main enemy. Since the nineteen seventies. The church had operated out of an armed compound about an hour from the levers new home founder Richard Butler. A former engineer from California claimed three hundred members in northern Idaho and six thousand followers nationally, he believed that white nationalists should move to the north west in order to establish their own area and homeland and he called for his congregants to arm themselves to prepare for coming race war. Are you relax and Jews? So them. Every year. Butlers fans and followers convened for an event called the area in world congress bikers skinheads, Neo, Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members came for speeches and spaghetti dinners their goal, they say is a separate all white nation headed by provisional government. We want a national homeland for people anything further into this. Holy cause is brewed anything without exception. Once news cameras captured them shooting at photos of the one time Isreaeli, prime minister adults practice in deadly earnest, taking potshots pictures of Menachem begging. Knows anymore Butler build it as a family friendly event with guns and burn crosses. If you will that's journalist Bill Morlin who covered extremist groups throughout the nineteen eighties for the spokesman review Moreland and a few other reporters were invited to cover these annual gatherings. They would refer to us as Jews media in by case I happen to be of Norwegian ancestry. I have blonde hair what's left of it and blue eyes. And so they've you'd me as a race traitor. Richard Butler would frequently say, you know, Bill you're on the wrong side, you're working for the Jews control the media, and you should be up here with us. The culmination of the area and world. Congress was usually a cross burning on Saturday night. Though, Butler preferred to call it a cross lighting ceremony that I witnessed was actually called a blessing of the weapons ceremony each participant. In a circle around these burning crosses would come forward with their weapon. And have it blessed under this burning cross? These were, you know, weapons of war for these area and warriors at least that was her storyline. For some time the area nations. Hateful rhetoric was mostly just that a lot of talk. But that changed in nineteen eighty three. Well, among those people who attended these area world congresses at the area nations were a group of young men. Some of whom it just gotten out of prison, and they were tired of just listening to Richard Butler. And they thought the time had come to, you know, get into action to actually start a race war in the United States. These men formed a group called the order or Bruder swaggie German for the silent brotherhood, and they went on a violent crime spree. Last year half a million dollars stolen from an armored car. Denver June eighteen local radio personality. Alan Berg, a Jew machine gun to death in the driveway of his home, you kayak, California, July nineteen another armored car hold up more than three and a half million dollars taken. The order was only active for a little more than a year until Robert Jay Mathews. The group's leader was killed in an F B I standoff, but the group's highly visible crimes juon force attention to the area and world congress where the members had met. The FBI and the ATF and local law enforcement knew that the area nations was a magnet for criminal activity that really wasn't in dispute. And so all those agencies set about doing major investigations what was going on there. And in the middle of all this comes Randy Weaver. Randy Weaver, attended several area and world congresses tagging along at first with survivalist friend in nineteen eighty six. He was never a formal member of the church Randy had some theological differences with Richard Butler. And he just wasn't a joiner. He later claimed. He was simply there to see what was going on. But he obviously wasn't that alarmed by what he saw and heard about this compound one year. He even brought Vicky and the kids with him at his first area in world, congress Randy meta friend of a friend named Gustav magic sano Gus was a scruffy motorcycle buff and a gun runner who said he had contacts eager to buy illegal weapons. Three years later. Randy needed money in a moment of desperation. He turned to Gus magic sano in August, nineteen eighty nine. He told gusts that he'd like to go to work for him. That is to help him with his legal gun operation. Vicky. Hi now Gus was calling to follow up. How are you? Manner ad. Thanks. Hi, how you doing good within thirty seconds. Randy Guscott down to business. And the the chains has. What do you think you can do with those as far as? The size of that. We talked about Gus wasn't really talking about chainsaws chainsaw was an area nations code word for a gun in this case a shotgun in their initial conversation. Randy said, he could cut down the guns barrels, but making a sawed off. Shotgun is illegal under most circumstances. And Randy knew it. Well, have a all talk you more about. Okay. Okay. That'd be fine. Gossen Randy meta eleven days later to complete the transaction. They I stopped at a local restaurant but left to keep the deal private probably park. Okay. No. That way we can kind of keep an eye on anything. That's coming around this to people. Okay. And on the audio here is somewhat hard to understand. But the sale went like this. Randy showed gusts to shotguns. He had cut down with vice and a hacksaw Gusset mired, the quality. Nice job. I do better. I mean. All right. They handled over the price. Three hundred. Gas offered three hundred for both. Randy said he needed more. I'm gonna have to have free hundred on. Of the pump gas gave Randy three hundred had on hand and promised to pay him a hundred fifty more the next time they saw each other quarter. Eighty. And the deal was done to sawed off shotguns for four hundred fifty dollars. Randy told Gus he could get more guns any promise that if things went bad, he wouldn't rat. It goes down. Well, nobody nobody goes down at two. Nobody goes down the tubes. The deal seemed to go pretty smoothly. But the next time the men met something had shifted. It was late November and the paramedic guesses Nissan parked outside a motel in nearby Sandpoint, Idaho. This time their conversation was tents Gus wanted Randy to take him to Montana to meet some guys. We had heard trafficking weapons out there. The Montana guys had broken off from the area nations. And Gus was interested in making a connection, but Gus still owed Randy one hundred fifty dollars. And Randy wouldn't let them forget it. If you just what you'll me I can hang on til next. Hope not. Finally, Randy got to what was really troubling him. A guy both damn. That. I had a guy in spill can tell me that you were bad. Randy was worried that Gus was a cop. Care about what family invite gets prisoner anywhere pissed. May appeal. Gus was indignant. Fever winning whereas clauses. I wasn't supposed to be word in check me wire. And as bullshit. You're welcome to check me for a wire. That was Mr. action. Gus wasn't wired at the time, but his car was and no he wasn't a bad. But he was an informant even hearing the recordings he made for the Pierre o of alcohol, tobacco and firearms or the PF. Recording. Case nine three three eight-year-old eighty five seven six. Any? Interesting kid a ticket quota right here. And you get your permission to record your conversation. Gus is real name was Kenneth fatally. He was one of many federal informants keeping an eye on the area nations after the orders violent crime spree. Fatally would later claim that he was barely interested in Randy Weaver at I in fact, at this point Randy didn't have a criminal record of any kind. But on top of selling him, the sawed off shotguns Randy told fatally he knew those guys out in Montana. Fatally was hoping that Randy could make that connection for him. Randy was like the street level drug dealer who the cops bust in the hopes. They can pressure him to flip on someone bigger. It was going to be a quick operation. Randy introduces the feds to the gun runners the gun charges are wiped from the books and Randy goes back to his reclusive mountain life that Randy got suspicious and refused to make the introduction. The Montana plan was bust. Randy's involvement with the ATF might have ended there. But four months later failures cover was blown that meant the ATF needed to find a new informant someone to gather information for the bureau on an ongoing basis. And they thought maybe Randy Weaver was ready to become a snitch. It wasn't a crazy idea. Randy had run for sheriff a few years back, and he was a military veterans. So they thought he might be sympathetic to law enforcement and the ATF had some dirt on him in June two ATF agents found Randy and Vicki at a restaurant in Naples. They told Randy they had evidence of the legal shotgun sale. They offered to play him the tapes of his conversation with fatally and told him he was likely to be indicted on federal charges and less. For his assistance in providing information on certain I associated with the area nations provide her Byerly one of the agents testified about the offer later he'd been kinda fatally supervisor was informed if he assisted this information would be related to the appropriate. Assistant US attorney Mr. wavered direly and his colleagues at the ATF figured it could go one of two ways either Randy would become an informant and gathered dirt on his white supremacist associates for them or he submit to charges on the gun sale. And probably cop a plea or get acquitted the experienced criminals, they usually dealt with would not have used. The gun rap is a big deal. Andy was not an experienced criminal waiver declined saying he would not be a snitch and that providing information or systens was against his beliefs. Do you think and now looking back at it Mr. violate that? You might have handled certain things differently. If I had if I know what I know now about the whole. Yeah. Well, I would certainly have no the totality of the whole thing. Yes. It's it's Slyke taking your family on a Sunday drive and being involved in a car accident and your family is killed and use. If I knew that what I take my family on the Sunday outing. No. The ATF in all their planning missed. The fact that their perspective informant was kind of a paranoid extremist yours. Just Walter again. He and his wife saw it as the first step of of a coming apocalypse that they thought would come through federal law enforcement. Anyway, you have to remember this family that when a road from Canada to von ferry was widened four lanes. They believed it was so the tanks could come down u n tanks for the coming takeover. So these were people who were living in fear and when federal agents approached them and say, we want you to be an informant. That's what they think is going to happen. They think this is the beginning of the end. Randy was indicted on the gun charges in December of nineteen ninety Justice her Byerly of the had warned as the court date approached Randy and Vicki vowed he wouldn't surrender to the authorities in January he in Vicki ventured into town for supplies after a series of snowstorms driving their pickup. They saw another truck with a camper. Broken down on a bridge. A man Mandla shaggy hair was tinkering with the engine and a woman without a winter coat was beside him the Weaver stopped to help the stranded. Motorists were in fact, undercover ATF agents other officers rushed out of the camera to arrest. Randy Vicky got into a struggle at the female agent and ended up face down in a snow Bank. Randy was released on bail the next day and return to the cabin that futile encounter. Only made the weavers more determined to resist Weaver would pay no heed to anyone Bill Moreland. Again, he was steadfast in his. Attention to say on the mountaintop cabin with his family, his friends and neighbors would bring him up, you know, survival supplies and food and bring up his mail, and they were as linked to the outside world. We Andy didn't show up for his court date. Just like they had always predicted. It was the Weaver family against the government. They will live in a constant state of alert waiting for this coming invasion that they've been expecting since they left Iowa. It's amazing that it's almost like they started with this paranoia. And they somehow manifested it became true on both sides. It's a sort of self filling prophecy, you know, the federal law enforcement goes out looking for. Radicalized white supremacist criminals, and they end up creating one then the weavers venture out in the world thinking that the world's going to end through a federal attack. And in both cases, a sort of blindness leads to this tragic outcome. What happened at Ruby Ridge captivated the far right because they see it as a story about an innocent family a white family specifically assaulted by a federal government that they loved eight. But for me, Ruby Ridge is compelling precisely because it's something much less comforting a story with unsympathetic protagonists well-meaning villains and unexpected heroes. A story that if just a few things had gone differently. Never would have been a story at all. Next week on standoff. We'll find out what happened in August. Nineteen ninety two when a dog barked and set off two days of violence and chaos at Ruby Ridge Marshall rest, so they go up there. They don't even know what they're doing. They're from back east, Ben here, which four Samuel Weaver screamed you killed my dog you son of a bitch and opened fire on them. To hear the rest of the series. Subscribe to standoff what happened at ruby rich in apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Standoff what happened at Ruby Ridge is brought to you by slate plus slates membership program slave plus members. Get a bonus episode of the show every week with in-depth interviews going further into the characters and themes this week I chat with slates Chow to about the origin of the series. And then I interviewed Jim Aho, and I'd Aho sociologist who studied the order and other white separatist groups back in the nineteen eighty s to hear that episode and help support the show. Sign up at slate dot com slash standoff. Standoff is produced by me and Nina earnest with production help from Andrew Parsons slates. Aditorial director for audio is Gabriel Roth. Thanks to Chow to Dan Dondon. Jess Walter, Andrew Parrella at New Hampshire. Public radio will pass skin. Dan course, Bill Carey and Michael Jackson and special. Thanks to Patrick Weigel. Linney Preston at the national archives in Seattle.

Randy Weaver Weaver Randy Randy Vicky Idaho Ruby Ridge federal government Iowa Vicki Weaver Gus America ATF Richard Butler Randy Guscott Jess Walter United States Vicki Montana Naples ATF Spokane
Standoff Ep. 1: Two Shotguns

Slow Burn

30:59 min | 2 years ago

Standoff Ep. 1: Two Shotguns

"Hello slow-burn listeners. It's mealy on what you're about to hear is the first episode of standoff a new podcast miniseries. Hosted by colleague, Ruth Graham. The podcast tells the story of the nineteen Ninety-two siege at Ruby Ridge. When hundreds of armed federal agents surrounded an isolated cabin belonging to a family of right wing extremists from their things went disastrously wrong. It's an event that has become a touchstone for the modern, right and one that raises questions that were still grappling with today. If you like episode one you want to hear the rest of the series. Subscribe to standoff what happened at Ruby Ridge in apple podcasts or anywhere else. As for slow burn. We'll be back in a month with two special episodes, featuring material from our recent live events that will include some of the conversations I had with our special guests as well. As a new story about the Clinton administration that I delivered live from the stage. Check back soon for that. In the meantime, help you enjoy standoff the following podcast contains explicit language. The first sign of trouble at Ruby Ridge was when the dog started barking the dog's name was striker and he belonged to a man called Randy Weaver Weaver in his family lived on top of a rocky outcropping in a ramshackle cabin few miles outside Naples, Idaho. There was no electricity or phone service and no indoor plumbing. Randy's wife. Vicki retreated to a shed when she was menstruating. They followed their own idiosyncratic, religious belief system and their view of the world tended toward paranoia. They thought America was secretly under the rule of cabal. They called Zog Zionist occupied government when striker started barking, the weavers followed maybe he'd caught the scent of a game animal, but they were wary because they lived in fear that they're isolated mountain. Homestead would come under attack by armed agents of the federal government. They were right. Six US marshals, including several members of the agencies elite special operations group had arrived at the weavers property and striker had picked up there sent it was August twenty first nineteen Ninety-two Weaver a fugitive on a federal firearms charge has been holed up in a cabin near Naples for more than a year. They say Weaver is a white supremacist and claim he's heavily armed. The US marshals on the scene had been tasked with getting Randy Weaver off the mountain peacefully. That wasn't going to happen. Good afternoon. A federal agent has been shot and killed in a confrontation with a fugitive north Idaho, shots rang out near the home of Randy Weaver, federal authorities from all over the country planning their next move. John Allison news four. John Allison was a news reporter at a TV station in Spokane just across the Washington border. When he arrived on the scene, hundreds of representatives from local and federal agencies were setting up a command post about a mile from the cabin. We were starting to see an influx of military vehicles. Helicopters even a couple of armored personnel carriers. It is a stunning and overwhelming show of force. They were staging for a major effort to major enterprise, and so I got word that a lot of this was coming in and staging at the airport in Bonner's ferry which was ten or fifteen miles to the north. So I took Taga for up to the airport, and it was fairly early in the morning and got up there, and it looked like a scene from Vietnam. And so I did a stand up from that airport that. Said something to the effect that Randy Weaver was somebody who simply wanted to be left alone. But with the sudden appearance of military hardware, like this is one man stand against the law. Suddenly taking on the appearance of a full blown war. The weavers home at Ruby Ridge was under siege. The standoff lasted for eleven days and three people died in all including Vicki Weaver. Here's Randi despite the moment, she was killed. He's speaking to a Senate subcommittee nineteen ninety five. At the time, she was gunned down, she was helpless. She was standing in the doorway of her home. She was holding Alicia or ten month old baby girl inter arms as the bullet crashed her head. She slumped to her knees. We took the baby from rich. She lay dead and bleeding on her kitchen floor. Take whatever. Whatever time you need Mr. waiver. Thank you. I'm not without fault in this matter, if I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now, I would make different choices. When the whole thing was over the government had spent millions of dollars to pursue one small case against one small man and would go on to spend millions more to fix its own mistakes. There would be a federal trial hearings in the US Senate and an investigation by the department of Justice. From slate podcasts. This is standoff. I'm your host Ruth Graham. How did a middle class family from Iowa end up on a remote, Idaho mountain heavily armed and facing down the FBI, and how did law enforcement agencies screw up a small potatoes? Criminal case so badly that they turned paranoid. Nobody into a right wing folk hero. It all started. When one guy sold another guy a couple of sawed off, shotguns. Randy Weaver was born in a small town in Iowa in nineteen forty eight. He joined the army during the Vietnam war and passed the training required to join the elite special forces, but he ended up quitting before he made it overseas. Randy met Vicki Jordan in the late nineteen sixties Vicky was raised on a farm, and she was close to her father who followed a breakaway sect of Mormonism and was interested in prophecy and the end times after Vickie and Randy married. They sold Amway products to get by then Randy got a better job at a John Deere factory. Overtime. Randy and Vicki became more. Interested in religion. They poured over a best selling book called the late great planet earth that found predictions of nuclear war and bible passages and warned that the end was near and they wandered pretty far from mainstream Christian teachings. They read only the King James version of the bible and started following Old Testament laws about things like eating unclean. Meet Randy hosted a raucous late night bible study that met at a local family restaurant, and they sent away for pamphlets comic books and tapes with titles like Satan's angels, exposed for the weavers this America that they felt they grown up with was disappearing and they were looking for some kind of answer. That's just Walter who covered Ruby Ridge for the Spokane spokesman review and later wrote a book about it. He said the weavers develop their own belief system finding prophecies in the. The Old Testament and signs of the coming apocalypse in current events. The weavers distrusted the Jews other minorities, the aluminum credit cards, and most churches, they both had visions about their future. And what God wanted them to do the family resisted labels at times? They didn't even call themselves Christians, but they were strongly influenced by a racist movement called Christian identity that was on the rise in the nineteen eighty s the idea behind Christian identity is that white people are the true people of God. And that a race war has to take place before the second coming of Christ. The sides of this religion that are truly damaging and freely. Dangerous are that people of color Africans are mud people that people we see as Jewish are the spawn of Satan. At some point the weavers stopped talking about the imminent, apocalypse and started actively preparing for it in early nineteen Eighty-three they told reporter they believed the government was going to purposely create chaos as an excuse to institute, martial law and openly establish a one world government. They had begun stockpiling weapons, and canned food and most importantly, the family said they were planning to move out west they were looking in Colorado, Montana, Idaho. This was almost something that was driven by the voice of God himself. We had had beliefs that, you know. If there ever was a natural disaster or downfall of the government of whatever we wanted to be separated from the rest of the world. We didn't want to be a part of it. Survival. You might call it. The family left Iowa that year and drove around the west in an old grain truck sleeping in motels and searching for land they could afford by. Then they had three children two daughters and a son Vicky said that God had made it known to her that the family was to have a place to live by September. Seventh nineteen Eighty-three they found their property in northern Idaho. Just under the deadline in a spot. Then known as caribou ridge Vicky wrote in her diary that when they drove up to the property. It was just what God had shown them. It would look like. The weavers built a cabin patching it together out of plywood and two by fours. The building was surrounded by thick woods and the families water came from a spring about a quarter mile below the house the weavers lived like pioneers. They home schooled their children and taught them to use guns. They hunted gardened and canned and they loved, you know, living off the grid. They loved the lifestyle. And I think they they felt like they'd stumbled on the America that they set out to find. But the weavers idea of pastoral contentment was wrapped up in Pakalitha. Dick fantasy Randy told neighbor before they even moved in armageddon's going to end on that hill. I'm Mary Harris. I'm the host of slates new daily news podcast. What next then I have a question for you. Do you ever get a push notification or a news alert on Twitter and think no stop the news? I want to get off. Then what next is the podcast for you. Each afternoon. We're going to break down that headline. You've seen your friends retweeting all day and tell you what matters dozen and what next just look for what next on Stitcher or wherever your podcasts. See there. The Weaver family had moved to Idaho in part to get away from the reach of the federal government. What they didn't know was that the federal government was paying more and more attention to Idaho. Kootenai county in northern Idaho is home to some of the choices scenery and the best recreation in the west, but there is trouble in Kootenai county because this is also home for the white supremacist. Aryan nations church. A large group, but one regarded as quite dangerous by law enforcement agencies. The area nations church was an anti-semitic organization with connections to the same Christian, identity theology. The family had been attracted to Iowa calls itself, a church, but as leaders, preach. Hey believers who regard Adolf Hitler as one of their main profits? Lexin Jews as their main enemy. Since the nineteen seventies. The church had operated out of an armed compound about an hour from the levers new home founder Richard Butler. A former engineer from California claimed three hundred members in northern Idaho and six thousand followers nationally, he believed that white nationalists should move to the north west in order to establish their own area and homeland and he called for his congregants to arm themselves to prepare for a coming race war. Are you ready? Third world. Every year. Butlers fans and followers convened for an event called the area in world congress bikers skinheads, Neo, Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members came for speeches and spaghetti dinners their goal, they say is a separate all white nation headed by provisional government. We won the national homeland for people anything in furtherance of this. Holy causes approved anything without exception. Once news cameras captured them shooting at photos of the one time Isreaeli, prime minister, be adults practice in deadly earnest, taking potshots at pictures of Menachem begging. Knows anymore Butler build it as a family friendly event with guns and burning crosses, if you will that's journalist Bill Morlin who covered extremist groups throughout the nineteen eighties for the spokesman review Moreland and a few other reporters were invited to cover these annual gatherings. They would refer to us as Jews media in my case, I happen to be of Norwegian ancestry. I have blonde hair what's left of it and blue eyes. And so they've you'd me as a race traitor. Richard Butler would frequently say Bill you're on the wrong side, you're working for the Jews control the media, and you should be up here with us. The culmination of the area and world. Congress was usually a cross burning on Saturday night. Though, Butler preferred to call it a cross lighting. Ceremony that I witnessed was actually called a blessing of the weapons ceremony each participant. In a circle around these burning crosses would come forward with their weapon. And have it blessed under this burning cross? These were, you know, weapons of war for these warriors. At least that was her storyline. For some time the area nations. Hateful rhetoric was mostly just that a lot of talk. But that changed in nineteen eighty three. Well, among those people who attended these area world congresses at the area nations were a group. Young men some of whom had just gotten out of prison, and they were tired of just listening to Richard Butler. And they thought the time had come to, you know, get into action to actually start a race war in the United States. These men formed a group called the order or brewed or swaggie German for the silent brotherhood, and they went on a violent crime spree. Last year half a million dollars stolen from an armored car. Denver June eighteen local radio personality. Alan Berg, a Jew machine gun to death in the driveway of his home, California, July nineteen another armored car hold up more than three and a half million dollars taken. The order was only active for a little more than a year until Robert Jay Mathews. The group's leader was killed in an F B I standoff, but the group's highly visible crimes juon Forsman attention to the area and world congress where the members had met. The FBI and the ATF and local law enforcement knew that the area nations was a magnet for criminal activity that really wasn't in dispute. And so all those agencies set about doing major investigations what was going on there. And in the middle of all this comes Randy Weaver. Randy Weaver, attended several area in world congresses tagging along at first with a survivalist trend in nineteen eighty six. He was never a formal member of the church Randy had some theological differences with Richard Butler. And he just wasn't a joiner later claimed. He was simply there to see what was going on. But he obviously wasn't that alarmed by what he saw and heard about lers compound one year. He even brought Vicky and the kids with him at his first area world, congress Randy meta friend of a friend named Gustav majesty, no Gus was a scruffy motorcycle buff and a gun runner who said he had contacts eager to buy illegal weapons. Three years later. Randy needed money in a moment of desperation. He turned to Gus magic sano in August nineteen Eighty-nine he told gusts that he'd like to go to work for him. That is to help him with his legal gun operation. Vicky. Hi now Gus was calling to follow up. How are you? Manner and. Thanks. How you doing good within thirty seconds. Randy and Gus got down to business. And the the change. What do you think you can do with those fire as? The size of that. We talked about Gus wasn't really talking about chainsaws chainsaw was an area nations code word for a gun in this case a shotgun in their initial conversation. Randy said, he could cut down the guns barrels, but making a sawed off shotgun is a legal under most circumstances. And Randy knew it. Well, have a talk you more about that. Okay. Okay. That'd be fine. Maybe. Gossen Randy meta eleven days later to complete the transaction. They I stopped at a local restaurant but left to keep the deal private probably park. Okay. No. That way we can kind of keep an eye on anything coming around this to people are, okay. And on the audio here is somewhat hard to understand. But the sale went like this. Randy showed gusts to shotguns, had cut down with vice and hacksaw gossip mired, the quality. Nice job. I do better. I mean. The haggled over the price. Three hundred for both gas offered three hundred for both. Randy said he needed more. I'm going to have to have three hundred on the of the pump. Gus gave Randy the three hundred had on hand and promised to pay him a hundred fifty more the next time they saw each other quarter. And the deal was done to sawn off shotguns for four hundred fifty dollars. Randy told gas he could get more guns any promise that if things went bad. He wouldn't ran go. Down to. Nobody nobody goes down at two. Nobody goes down the tubes. The deal seemed to go pretty smoothly. But the next time the men met something had shifted. It was late November and the pyramid. Guesses. Nissan parked outside a motel nearby Sandpoint, Idaho. This time their conversation was tense. Gus wanted Randy to take him to Montana to meet some guys we had heard trafficking weapons out there. The Montana guys had broken off from the area nations. And Gus was interested in making a connection, but Gus still owed Randy one hundred and fifty dollars and Randy wouldn't let him forget it. If you do you'll me I can hang on. Not finally Randy got to what was really troubling him. Had a guy. That. I had a guy in spill can tell me that you were a badge. Randy was worried that Gus was a cop. Care about what family in prison anywhere be pissed. Can I say? For me Bill. Gus was indignant. Fever clauses will. Wasn't bad. I suppose it'd be word in check me wire and as shit. You're welcome to check me for a wire. That was Mr. action. Gus wasn't wired at the time, but his car was and no he wasn't a badge. But he was an informant even hearing the recordings he made for the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms or the PF. Recording in which case nine three three eight eighty five seven six name is Adrian. Interesting kid tip reporter in here. And you give your permission to record. You. Overseas. Gus is real name was Kenneth fatally. He was one of many federal informants keeping an eye on the area nations after the orders violent crime spree. Fatally would later claim that he was barely interested in Randy Weaver at I in fact, at this point Randy didn't have a criminal record of any kind. But on top of selling him, the sawed off shotguns Randy told fatally he knew those guys out in Montana. Fatally was hoping that Randy could make that connection for him. Randy was like the street level drug dealer who the cops bust in the hopes that can pressure him to flip on someone bigger. It was going to be a quick opperations. Randy introduces the feds to the gun runners the gun charges are wiped from the books and Randy goes back to reclusive mountain life, but Randy got suspicious and refuse to make the introduction. The Montana plan was a bust Randy's involvement with the ATF might have ended there but four months later fade. Lease cover was blown that meant the ATF needed to find a new informant someone to gather information for the bureau on an ongoing basis. And they thought maybe Randy Weaver was ready to become a snitch. It wasn't a crazy idea. Randy had run for sheriff a few years back, and he was a military veterans. So they thought he might be sympathetic to law enforcement and the ATF had some dirt on him in June two ATF agents found Randy and Vicki at a restaurant in Naples. They told Randy they had evidence of the illegal shotgun sale. They offered to play him the tapes of his conversation with Ainsley and told him he was likely to be indicted on federal charges, unless we asked for his assistance in providing information on certain I search with the area nations, I provide her Byerly one of the agents testified about the offer later he'd been kinda fatally supervisor Mr. waiver was informed. If he assisted this information would be related to the appropriate. Assistant US attorney Mr. wavered direly and his colleagues at the ATF figured it could go one of two ways either Randy would become an informant and gathered. Dirt on his white supremacist associates for them or he submit to charges on the gun sale. And probably cop a plea or get acquitted the experienced criminals, they usually dealt with would not have used. The gun rap is a big deal. Unregistered? Andy was not an experienced criminal this waiver declined saying he would not be a snitch and that providing information or systens was against his beliefs. Do you think and now looking back at Mr. violate that? You might have handled certain things differently. If I had if I know what I know now about the whole tech. Yeah. Well, I would certainly have knowing the totality of the whole thing. Yes. It's it's it's like taking your family on a Sunday drive and being involved in a car accident and your family is killed and use your if I knew that what I take my family on the Sunday outing. No. The ATF in all their planning missed. The fact that their perspective informant was kind of a paranoid extremist yours. Just Walter again. He and his wife saw it as the first step of of a coming apocalypse that they thought would come through federal law enforcement. Anyway, you have to remember this family that rode from Canada to von or ferry was widened four lanes. They believed it was so the tanks could come down u n tanks for the coming takeover. So these were people who were living in fear when federal agents approach them and say we want you to be an informant. That's what they think is going to happen. They think that this is the beginning of the end. Randy was indicted on the gun charges in December of nineteen ninety just as her Byerly of the had warned as the court date approached Randy and Vicki vowed he wouldn't surrender to the authorities in January. He in Vicki ventured into town for supplies after a series of snowstorms driving their pickup. They saw another truck with a camper broken down on a bridge. A man was shaggy hair was tinkering with the engine and a woman without a winter coat was beside him the Weaver stopped to help the stranded. Motorists were in fact, undercover ATF agents other officers rushed out of the camber to arrest. Randy Vicky got into a struggle with the female agent and ended up face down in a snow Bank. Randy was released on bail the next day and return to the cabin that futile encounter. Only made the weavers more determined to resist Weaver would pay. No heed anyone Bill Morlin again, he was steadfast in his. Intention to say on the mountaintop cabin with his family, his friends and neighbors would bring him up, you know, survival supplies food and bring up his mail, and they were as linked to the outside world Wendy didn't show up for his court date. Just like they always predicted. It was the Weaver family against the government. They will live in a constant state of alert waiting for this coming invasion that they've been expecting since they left Iowa. It's amazing that it's almost like they started with this paranoia. And they somehow manifested it it it became true on both sides. It's a sort of self filling prophecy, you know, the federal law enforcement goes out looking for radicalized white supremacist criminals, and they end up creating one then the weavers venture out in the world thinking that the world's going to end through a federal attack. And in both cases, a sort of blindness. Leads to this tragic outcome. What happened at Ruby Ridge captivated the far right because they see it as a story about an innocent family, a white family specifically assaulted by federal government that they love date. But for me, Ruby Ridge is compelling precisely because it's something much less comforting a story with unsympathetic protagonists well-meaning villains and unexpected heroes. A story that is just a few things had gone differently. Never would have been a story at all. Next week on standoff. We'll find out what happened in August. Nineteen ninety two when a dog barked and set off two days of violence and chaos at ruby rich marshes rest, so they go up there. They don't even know what they're doing. They're from back east, Ben here, which four Samuel Weaver screened you killed my dog. You son of a bitch and opened fire on them. To hear the rest of the series. Subscribe to standoff what happened at Ruby Ridge in apple podcasts or wherever you listen standoff. What happened at Ruby Ridge is brought to you by slate plus slates membership program slave plus members. Get a bonus episode of the show every week with depth interviews going further into the characters and themes this week I chat with slates Chow to about the origin of the series. And then I interviewed Jim auto, and I'd Aho sociologist who studied the order and other white separatist groups back in the nineteen eighties to hear that episode and help support the show. Sign up at slate dot com slash standoff standoff is produced by me and Nina earnest with production help from Andrew Parsons, slates editorial director for audio is Gabriel. Roth thanks to Chow to Dan Dondon. Jess Walter, Andrew Parrella, New Hampshire. Public radio will pass can Dan Quayle. Bill Carey and Michael Jackson and special. Thanks to Patrick Weigel. Linney Preston at the national archives in Seattle.

Randy Weaver Weaver Randy Randy Vicky Idaho Ruby Ridge federal government Gus Iowa ATF America Richard Butler reporter Ruth Graham Vicki Jess Walter United States Montana Naples ATF Spokane
2: Rules of Engagement

Slate Presents: Standoff | What Happened at Ruby Ridge?

33:00 min | 2 years ago

2: Rules of Engagement

"Tony Brown liked. Randy Weaver from the moment, they first met when you read somebody in a small community of your friend. Are you there enemy? So what would be your choice? That's his wife. Jackie laughing in the background, the weavers and the Browns were good, friends and neighbors before during and after the standoff, Tony and Jackie also wrote and self published a book about Ruby Ridge. And the weavers it really wasn't anything particularly. That stood out about him other than it had really strong beliefs and they stood together as a family. And of course, we're anti-government which is common up here. The weavers. Trouble began in the summer of nineteen ninety when agents from the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms. Pushed Randy to become an informant the refused, and they indicted him for selling a legal, shotguns. You heard about that? In our last episode. According to the Browns book, this was already an anxious time for Randy and Vicki Weaver, the United States and its allies were mobilizing for the first Gulf war, which Vicki and Randy took a sign that Armageddon was imminent, and when the ATF roped Randy into selling guns to an informant the weavers on their friends, so on a ferrying agenda at work. She's part of a government program to wipe out a religion, white supremacy to religion or white separatist religion. The weavers decided they would stay on the mountain and refused to submit to authorities in February of nineteen Ninety-one Vicky sent two letters to the US attorney's office making it clear, the family wasn't going to cooperate in the first she quoted a statement from the order the white supremacist group that had terrorized the north west in nineteen Eighty-four. War is upon the land. The tyrant's blood will flow in the second Vicky wrote whether we live or whether we die. We will not bow to your evil commandments. They believed in themselves. They believed in people at they thought would stand up for what we'd ride wrong. I wanted to talk to Tony. And Jackie to get a sense of what the weavers were thinking when they made their stand against the government. The Browns were willing to talk, but they sent me an Email setting some ground rules. I had a direct all my questions toward Tony Jackie would answer where necessary at first Tony did all the talking. But I could sometimes hear Jackie prompting him in the background. You know, Aaron believes you're white separatist believes or even white supremacist release when you're going to call him their guaranteed by the constitution. Like, what was just like black power? And then yells, you you could call it whatever you want in the end the Weaver spent eighteen months holed up in their cabin hiding from the law. Jackie was one of the friends who brought them food and supplies that became especially important. When Randy and Vicki got surprise Vicky was pregnant at age forty one in October of nineteen ninety one she gave birth to her fourth child a daughter. She named Alicia meaning God is my oath. The fact that the family was in a kind of self imposed house arrest didn't change their baby plans much. I'm pretty sure it would have been a home birth. Anyway, you ever been into a hot? You know, they didn't trust Dr no to Tony. And Jackie Brown. The idea that the Weaver family was a threat to anyone was ludicrous. Neither one of them had a criminal history of any kind to the best of mine knowledge. Neither one of them every even had a speeding ticket. But that's not how it looked from the outside. From slate podcasts. This is standoff. I'm your host Ruth Graham. On this episode. The shootout. When Randy Weaver didn't show up for his court date. A judge issued a bench warrant and the US marshals service took on the job of bringing him in. This is Mike Johnson loose the US marshal for the district of Idaho from nineteen ninety to nineteen ninety four in the spring of nineteen Ninety-two the weavers were still holed up on their property. Randy Vicki their three older children. And now an infant to Johnson and other US marshals suspected Randy was still leaving the cabin occasionally to run into town. They had written him letters trying to persuade them to surrender. But the replies that came off the mountain were not encouraging. My husband was set up for a fall Vicky wrote at one point there's nothing to discuss this went on for over a year. And again, the rhetoric the came back was pretty obvious. This was not gonna happen. Like a normal case would. If Tony and Jackie Brown saw Randy as a simple family man oppressed by the violent arm of the law, the law something else, a paranoid guy who was proving himself impossible to reason with the bottom line was what do you want? If you don't want to surrender to the US marshals, you can surrender to the county sheriff the police chief the postal inspector you can surrender to ever you want. The federal government is not going to take your house. The federal government is not in arrest your kids. It's you that we be to arrest. And so you can show up to court and the information back came back is stay off my mountain. What they didn't see was a significant threat wasn't a player. That's Ron Hoan. Who was an assistant US attorney in Boise in one thousand nine hundred to no one saw him as anything that was important. Just another, you know, one of these guys who spouts white supremacy. Killa Jews children skill. You know, you name it touch everything that came out his mouth all the time how in had aggressively prosecuted white supremacist criminals, including members of the order. He said his office and the marshalls went to great lengths to woo Randy off the mountain or to get them alone. So they get arrest him without incident at one point they cooked up a plan to buy a parcel of land north of the Weaver property with deputy marshals posing as a husband and wife would be Randy's new neighbors. And this guy was gonna drive up and down the hill through Randy's plays yet to know and the plan was that at some point. Randy would probably agree to go up and help him with. With the work and that they would get him in a car with the Marshall drive him up to that cabinet. And then there there would be interesting in the woods hiding. They're taking down get him arrested in off the hill. The obvious question is why didn't Randy Weaver just come down from the mountain. But it's also worth asking couldn't the government just walk away. Remember Randy's only crime so far was to sell to illegal guns after a federal informant. Baited him into it Johnson says that's just not how it works. I don't have as the US Marshall than the luxury of Saint will. I don't think it's that big of a case. So we'll put it on the back burner. In fact, what I'd run into the judge in the elevator. Sometimes you said, we're where are you going on that case was at every day? No, maybe once every three or four months, I said, we're working on it. Ron Hoan says he missed something important about how the Weaver household operated. I was starting to learn more and more about Vicki Weaver's influence and dominance of the family. And again, I wish I'd known that long before I guess law enforcement, perhaps we could have taken. A different tack. If we'd really known that Helen came to see Vicki Weaver as the real driver of the families apocalyptic doctrine, Tony Brown. Agreed. We were kind of basic guy. You know, he liked to have a beer to cigarette talk. Go do something play ball. Just you wasn't as convicted in his convinced as had victim. At one point Randy and Vicki invited a local news reporter into their cabin. And sat for an interview. They told him Randy wanted to give himself up for the sake of the family. But that Vicky insisted he stand firm. They were a couple, but she wore the pants and family. She made the decision Randy had wanted to surrender. But she said, no, this is going to fulfill the prophecy. There's gonna be the shoot off at the top of the mountain, and you know, the feds will be killed in the second coming or Christ will will happen. And this is how this is all going to transpire. How and found Vicki's involvement particularly incomprehensible because she was a mother. I talked to a lot of women about that. And it just why would a mother put her children and that kind of danger and the recoil from that from virtually every mother is I would never do that too much over. Why do that that's one of the unanswered questions? I have. Jackie Brown was close with thicky. She says Vicki wasn't the domineering battle-axe. She's often been portrayed as she was a warm and loving mother. But also, a loyal wife in my view, the federal government. What they did was they picked a target which was Randy. And by peaking Randy. They picked Vickie. He has they were a married couple. And I don't know the folks think that way anymore, but my husband, and I do, and they most certainly did that means they're unit there one attack one you attack. Both. That some people have a lot some have a little, but the vast majority of us have some, but the path to financial freedom can look awfully bleak. When you have high interest debt, and if your FICO score isn't great it can make breaking out of that revolving debt cycle harder than it needs to be that our sponsor up start is revolutionizing the process of personal lending upstart offers personal loans that they're not like the ones you get from your Bank or credit union. That's because upstart goes beyond the traditional FICO score. 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The wary stalemate between the weavers and the authorities went on for a little more than a year things began to change when Bill Moreland started looking into it as a reporter, you know, you pay attention to your sources. So I get wind of all is. And I could just see trouble in the making. We heard from Bill Moreland episode one when he covered the world congress. Now, he was interested in Randy Weaver. I started talking to federal law enforcement sources, and I got this kind of goofy grants from them like guess what? The guy didn't show up. And we got a problem on our hands Morlin made the two hour from Spokane to Naples to report on this unusual outlaw. And there was also a sentiment pretty pervasive in the community inks is like, okay. Who cares about the guys? We saw we saw off some shotguns. So what legislation Malone, and you know, why don't we just ignore him? And maybe this all go away case. Point a conversation Moreland says he had with a local sheriff. He was suggesting, you know, why do you care about him? What why don't we just ignore him? He's up there. You're not hurting anybody. He's minding his own business unexplained to the sheriff. I said, you know, sheriff just a few years earlier in may of nineteen eighty five in Philadelphia. There was a group of African Americans some of whom were named in warrants law enforcement. There didn't sidedly those folks alone. He's referencing the police shootout and bombing of move a black liberation group. Urban war in Philadelphia scores of homes were destroyed by fire when police dropped a bomb on a heavily fortified house occupied by a radical group. At least he moved in on them. And actually started at tire city block on fire killing eleven people including five children. In an attempt to force the organization called move from one house, sixty homes, burn two hundred fifty. So I told the sheriff. I said why should a white supremacist on a mountaintop in north Idaho? Be any different than African Americans in a tenement in Philadelphia. We're all equal under the law in if you're used to breaking the law, you'd have your Dan court, you should be presumed innocent, but you should go face Justice and accept the consequences. And the sheriff thought about that tip is head and kinda shrug their shoulders. In March of nineteen Ninety-two Morlin wrote a front page story for the Spokane spokesman review about Randy's refusal to come down from the mountain headline said feds have fugitive under our nose. In the article he described how to Boise based marshalls had been on the case for more than a year gathering information on Randy's family and strategizing about how to get him down Moreland story got national attention soon. Media outlets were flying helicopters over the cabin weavers had no way to know. It was the press and not the government circling above though, maybe it didn't matter because the family didn't trust either one. So it was getting a little bit of attention. I don't know if any of that forced the marshalls hands. But as August of nineteen Ninety-two approached there was more pressure on the Marshall service to try to bring this fugitive in. That's right or Jess Walter who we heard from an episode one in the months after Bill Moreland story, the Marshall service started keeping a closer eye on the weavers property. They called it operation. Northern exposure. Mike Johnson the US marshal for Idaho. One of the things that was concerned. Now we were getting into August. And then pretty soon September and then as October deer and elk season. What happens if some hunter is in that area? And Randy Weaver thinks it's a federal agent shoots him the Marshall spot in an elite team known as the special operations group that was trained for high risk situations. They set up a solar-powered camera system around the Weaver property that cost more than one hundred thousand dollars. What they found was that the family was pretty much always armed serving hours of video footage the marshalls tau. Obviated how often each member of the family was seen carrying a weapon fourteen year old Sammy Weaver had a gun eighty four percent of the time. He was also spotted wearing a Nazi armband. Even commissioned a profile of the weavers from a psychologist who lived in Texas, and it never met them. He warned family will fight possibly to the death. The situation -rupt it into violence on August twenty first nineteen ninety two. At four thirty in the morning, six US marshals arrived just below the Weaver property, they split into two teams of three describe out the cabin the idea was to observe the families movements. So they could figure out how to get Randy on his own and eventually make a peaceful arrest the marshalls explored the woods below the Weaver cabin which included a rough logging road. The temperature had been in the nineties for more than a week. The teams finish their work by late morning apparently undetected, but as they were heading back to their cars. One of the family dogs yellow lab named striker seem to catch a ascent. He tore off in the direction of one of the Marshall teams Randy his son Sammy, and their friend. Kevin Harris, followed striker the body cameras. The marshals were wearing captured the sound of his barking. Kevin was carrying a heavy hunting rifle and Sammy had a rifle and a handgun the three marshals ran down the hill. Staying hidden in the woods, then they had a clearing. They were exposed. And Randy Sammy and Kevin followed the dog downhill after them. There was an exchange of gunfire. Marshall William Degan was killed. So was fourteen year old Sammy lever. There's a dispute about who died I and who fired the fatal bullets Marshall say Kevin Harris opened fire and killed Bill. Degan a forty two year old father of two. The events. I will describe next or etched in my mind. And I am certain of what I saw Larry Cooper was one of the marshalls at the shootout. He described it later at the Senate hearings, unruly reg FD Teagan called out. Stop US marshals is I heard dippy Deegan began to announce I joined in. But before I finish my words, Kevin Harris, turn fired from the hip and shot deputy Degan. I have a clear mental pitcher of Kevin Harris fire in that first shot. There is no other aspect of this tragedy about which I am more certain. Cooper was a good friend of deacons, and he ran to Degan side. After seeing him go down. When I reached deputy, and he was laying on the side his arm in the slaying of his rifle he was conscious, but he did not respond to me. I tried unsuccessfully to locate the entry one in order to stop or slow the bleeding, however within moments I sense that I was losing him. I reached for the artery on his neck to feel for a pulse and his pulse. Stop beating under my fingertips. I knew he was gone. In response to Harris shooting Degan, the surviving Marshall, say another Marshall opened fire and hit Sammy Weaver. They're not sure who it was. So that's the way the marshalls describe it. Here's the weavers version. They say one of the marshals shot the dog first. And then Sammy screamed you killed my dog you son of a bitch. They say he opened fire but didn't hit anyone and then turned and ran back toward the cabin. When one of the Marshall shot him they say Kevin then fired at the marshalls in retaliation or in self defense. And maybe he hit Bill Degan or maybe Degan was killed by friendly fire. Here's how Randy Weaver told the story a few years later. On August, twenty first nineteen ninety two federal marshals shot my son Samuel the back and killed him. He was running to me is last words were uncoming dead. A shot is alarm almost often. They killed him by shooting him back in the back with the nine millimeter submachine gun. The gun had a silencer on it. It was not wanted for any crime. He did not commit any crime. The marshals killed his dog right at his feet. He only tried to defend himself in his dog. Sam was just fourteen years old. Bill deacons widow came to Washington for the Senate hearings. She didn't want to appear in front of the subcommittee herself. But she wrote a statement that was read by Senator Arlen Specter. Before Bill left. We went to a party for my sister-in-law's birthday while we dance to the Laslo song. And he told me. Whatever might happen in Idaho. Just remember how much I love you. And I of course, do remember them. Today. Those words are strangely comforting. At the time. You can imagine they were very unsettling. And unfortunately, of course, they proved to be prophetic. I remember saying something like come on. You're talking like someone's going to get killed out there. He responded. No one's going to get killed. That's why we're going. But this is probably the most dangerous guy ever had a dealer. We sat Randy Weaver a letter asking talk with him and asked one of his former lawyers to put us in touch though, we never heard back his daughters didn't wanna talk either. But just this year. Randy gave an interview to a conservative news site in Montana, even find the video on YouTube. It's an amateur production filmed with a hand held camera in a restaurant Randy sitting in a booth between two guys who act like fan, boys. He seventy but he's gone and small any answers their questions in a hollow voice. That's often hard to make out three minutes in Randy says this about Bill Degan. The time highest. When years worth mystery, which would cut to cool. The moment deputy marshal Bill Degan was killed the nature of the situation changed a federal deputy marshal shot to death near future officers and federal agents have taken up positions or under remote cabin near Naples, Idaho. Never before has north Idaho witnessed this kind of firepower from the federal government, and it's all because Randy Weaver Weaver hispan- because Degan was a federal agent. The FBI now had jurisdiction over the scene. Members of the bureau's hostage. Rescue team arrived the next morning. Jackie Brown to call them hostage. Rescue team is offensive to my very census. They were in assassination team, you you would have to have an IQ of five to understand that. The Marshall service may have been working with partial information on the Weaver family, but at least they've been working the case for more than a year, the F B I came in blind. And it's crazy. How much bad information they were working with? Law enforcement agencies thought Randy Weaver had experience in Vietnam wrong. They thought the family had blue be trapped the property or that they had armed allies ready to fight alongside them both wrong. The ATF claimed at one point that Randy was a suspect in multiple Bank robberies wrong, they thought he might be growing marijuana wrong. The shooting gave rise to new rumors that Randy and Kevin eras had fired on the marshals from the cabin using automatic weapons that the family had rigged their property with explosives that Randy and his family had the remaining marshals pinned down and refused to let them flee all of the bad information pointed in one direction that Randy Weaver was a very dangerous, man. On the flight from Washington DC, the head of the FBI's hostage rescue team decided desperate times called for desperate measures. And this is when some rules of engagement are crafted, which are will become one of the most controversial. And indefensible parts of this case from the federal side, certainly rules of engagement our internal guidelines agencies use to define what kind of force can be employed under what circumstances standard procedure calls for deadly force to be used only in self-defense or defensive others. The FBI's new rules drafted on the plane and revised several more times on the scene where unusually aggressive the final draft read if any adult male is observed with a weapon deadly force, can and should be employed. If a shot can be taken without endangering the children. In other words, if you see an armed man shoot to kill this would change things in a way that would be tragic because obviously the weavers are always armed as the FBI descended on nor. Other night Aho the weavers retrieved Sammy's body and moved it to shed that night. The survivors huddled together in grief and terror, they wail and cry and believe that they're going to die the here. Helicopters, and they hear trucks in the woods. And and they believe that you know, that they are under attack and that by morning, you know, they might come and finish them all off. The next evening. A team of eleven camouflaged FBI snipers from the hostage rescue team quietly surrounded the cabin just before six Randy and Kevin dashed outside. Check the grounds and grab some batteries Sarah Weaver, the family's oldest daughter was outside to Randy pause near the Shad where Sammy's body was. He said he wanted to look at his son again. A helicopter buzzed overhead. Then a shot rang out. A sniper named LAN Horry UT had fired. Got hit got a few feet off away from the shed and Vicki's comes out front. She's holding the baby out there by the rock. And she says what happened? I said I've been shot and she has up in the hills. Randy and Kevin ran back toward the house. Here's Randi in an interview. And she run back on the portion open the door and was hold the door. And she said getting house getting house. When they were almost inside where UT shot again this time. The bullet had Vicky who had been standing in the doorway baby Alicia in her arms. She died almost instantly. Kevin. And Randy later described the moment Vicki died. Tom brokaw. Her. And then hit me did you. You're gonna die right then. Yeah. I turned around and my wife was down hundred as whether head on the floor just inside the door with the baby and underneath like this. Fringe reached down and picked her up baby. Head Boyd, spider, inter inter. There's a picture of the key Weaver that was taken by the Marshall service. Surveillance camera the day before she died. It's a little grainy Vicki's outside in a white nightgown head down her long hair falling forward with her arms. Clutch close to her body. It's the cover image for this podcast, when I say this picture, I sometimes think of a phase Vicky went through in Iowa where she purged the house of all photographs in obedience to her interpretation of scripture later, she loosened up about photography, but the last picture of her was taken by the government. She hated. Non Horiutsi later told investigators he mistook Randy for Kevin and thought Kevin was preparing to shoot at the helicopter. The also said he wasn't even following the revised rules of engagement what he knew and what he was thinking would be debated in hearings and courtrooms for years to come best case scenario lawn. Her UT who could hit a dime with his rifle from one hundred meters took two shots, and in both cases didn't know what he was shooting at and missed what should have been a straightforward case had gone horribly wrong of all the effort that we did for over a year. And then we lost a deputy marshal husband and a father just doing his job. It's just still to this day. I shake my head. Why this had to happen? If Randy Weaver just would've showed up to court. William Dagan would be alive today and be retired. And Randy Weaver's son would be alive and his wife would be alive, but he chose to not do that. Everyone involved in what happened at Ruby Ridge knows. There are countless ways it could have gone. Other wise, the ATF could have chosen not to sting Randy on the gun sale. Randy could have chosen to show up in court Bill Moreland could have chosen a different lead to follow never learned about the guy who wouldn't come down from the mountain. The US attorney could have chosen to drop the case the marshals could have chosen to stay away from Randy's property. The FBI could have chosen not to change the rules of engagement and with his family torn apart. Randy Weaver had another choice to make. Did it ever occur to you? Your wife is dead. Your son is dead. Your great friend Kevin is gravely wounded to walk out of the cabins for your arms in the air and say, I surrendered Elway did me. On the next episode of standoff. Randy Weaver stays on the mountain while an angry crowd of supporters gathered to defend him and protests the federal government. I specifically remember I- skinhead yelling. This is war. This is war. Standoff what happened at Ruby Ridge is brought to you by slate plus slates membership program slate plus members get a bonus episode of the show every week with up interviews going further into the characters and themes this week. I interview historian Kathleen Balu about the role of women in the white power movement to hear that episode and help support the show. Sign up at slate dot com slash standoff standoff is produced by me and Nina earnest with production help from Andrew Parsons slates. Aditorial director for audio is Gabriel Roth. Thanks this week to Chow to Greg sprung will Jess Walter and Emily Ganic.

Randy Weaver Randy Randy Vicki United States Randy Sammy Vicky federal government marshalls Bill Moreland Idaho Kevin Vicki Weaver Randy Weaver Weaver Jackie Brown FBI ATF Mike Johnson Sammy Weaver Marshall service Sarah Weaver
149 - w/ Jon Ronson "Porn Stars, Psychopaths, Cancel Culture"

The Fifth Column

1:04:29 hr | 1 year ago

149 - w/ Jon Ronson "Porn Stars, Psychopaths, Cancel Culture"

"Warning this program typically features respectful nuance commentary strong language skier pop culture references in serious allegations no new method of Attack Ladies and Gentlemen Boys and Girls Comrex Burroughs v calmness. It's Michael winner voiceless tonight's national courts. Is that what I think <hes> yes it again because the reaction been strong and I really really appreciate all the emails <hes> Andrew Messages and all that stuff on instagram on twitter the rest of it but this is another special dispatch and we're trying to squeeze more of these in this weird kind of summer schedule and it's tough to get Matt Welsh and Camille Foster and myself in the same room <hes> so today as you saw when you downloaded this episode third we had a really really good one and if anybody if you guys out there are paying attention to journalism to radio to film film to podcast. You definitely know Jon Ronson. He's our guest. Today is a Welsh journalist who lives here in New York City and you know he's written books that I'm sure you know psychopath tasks which was huge <hes> the men who stare at goats which became a George Clooney movie and you know recently recently to terrific. Oh I should say also so you've been publicly shamed which is how I know John Because the first couple of chapters of that book involve me well you know precipitating published. I didn't actually publicly shame anyone so that's how I met John and we've become friends and I admire oh him greatly and his staff has been because of its has the greater and most recently he's done to podcasts which I think are both available widely now on on spotify and things like that these two behind a paywall but both are about the porn industry and both are terrific. The first one is called the butterfly effects and the second one he he just released called the last days of August just released probably six months ago about the death of a porn star suicide of a porn star name August Ames and John does a pretty in depth investigation into that <hes> because the initial assumption was that she was publicly shamed and ended up taking her life off as a result so we had an amazing we do preambles sort of after we record them so I can address anything that comes up but there's nothing really needs to address beyond the fact. I got forty five minutes to sleep last night. Why is sending Your Business? You don't need to know that but I didn't get much sweep last night and so I came in here a little shaky. John didn't have a ton of time and said to me after that he would have stayed longer longer because we have these conversations but we did have a pretty pretty indepth conversation which we'd spend more time in the porn stuff because you know we had other great conversations about Oh cancelled culture twitter mobs Alex Jones. It's a pretty good star studded podcast mentions of stars. They don't come on the the podcast so it. I'm happy with it because I thought it was a really fun interview and I think that you'll be happy with it too. If you're not happy with it I don't care. Don't tell me because my feelings and that'll be shamming me. If you do like it. Send me message so now listen to me Michael Moynihan speaking to Jon Ronson Jon Ronson. Thank you Mike for Joining. I've wanted to do this for some time. I don't think we've ever actually talked. Publicly publicly together about there was one time we were both guests on the podcast I'm across Katainen and she mandy Mandy Statler Yeah and until we talked briefly as we were at the same time not yeah yeah but I live sort of intersected over the years in you know unusual way yeah. You emailed me well. Let's get back to. I want to start with your background. You have a very he's odd mancunian accent despite being from Cardiff yes your English yet. We're your manque. When I'm Welsh I left Cardiff when I was about seventeen and moved to eighteen and moved to London for few years and then moved to Manchester and for some reason I guess is to do with some sort of psychology? I adopted the Manchester axe to survive in mantis either survival. Maybe even Falfield. Maybe it was actually alongside. which is the next village? Probably villages have sure would I was I was in Falfield and burn age right <hes> which I think we're the gallaghers are from Bernard too they were. I don't know making move there to be a musician. Yes when I was living in London I met Matt these two bands. I'm frank side bottom who never took off and I'm an Indie band called the man from del Monte and they both expressed interest in the <hes> <hes> Muffin demonte to manage them managing them. If You keep you behind the curtain I'm with Fred Seinfeld I was I was just keyboard player in his agent booking agent and ultimately somebody who wrote a film about him. Yes I co wrote the film frank with destroy the sort of fairy tale version of drags out but I think it's still available on Netflix. Is that correct take it off Oh i. I hope it's still yeah. I don't know I haven't checked so so that road. It's kind of a weird winding road from being the Keyboard Franks I bought him. You become a journalist now. Yes what it was quite simple. Actually I was I was clearly not cut out for the music industry. The man for Del Monte were <hes> should have made it and I think the only reason why they didn't was because I was their manager English shut name to and also they they they were kind of slightly out of time. They were perceived to be middle class at a time when working class bands were were popular. Let's turn roses and yeah <hes> terrible manager. I was kind of okay agent but then again you just fold up veneer that skillful when you our lower levels you save that right after you confess to being terrible at it by the way so perhaps it's not just calling up the venue. Is this a little more to it than that well yeah and I'm as a keyboard player. I could just play Jay which happened to be the three notes that you needed to know how to play to be infanticide buttons but a dish Maine that I couldn't other bands steph out you I kind of break out. Book is them which is about twelve years later <hes> twelve years later period where you're just sort of working for the Guardian and right place in making some TV documentary T._v.. Stuff documentary co Tottenham Ayatollah which was about my you're hanging out with open back read. Yes must've militant Islamists and you are Jewish. Yes howdy outed me out to be a to G. We had training camp. Oh really a scout hut nick outlook airports and Said told the trade as he said look at me with the infidel John who is a junior would really yes and I said I said surely it's better to do than an atheist and I know the other thing about that story that I am an atheist. I told her what fucker decided to to sit proudly since despite Jewish life and I think they probably think of Judaism Moore's a racial thing <hes> than there is a religious beliefs but yet and he whatever what became of him Oh he's now in solitary confinement and in Beirut for the rest of his life he he what happened was in about two thousand five two thousand six six. There was some Islamist terrorist attacks in prison then he went to visit his mother in Lebanon and had been a lot about publicity about him inspiring terrorism when he was out of the country he was banned from returning and so he was like stuck in Beirut and then he got arrested and he's been in jail for decades with trial my own without that. I don't know his charge was the same charge that people were doing in Brisbane which was inspiring centers. What is it about? I mean we get to this but I mean what is it about your precious about crazy people right. He became rather notorious and famous James Your first book you are wandering around the woods with a kind of not yet bloated but very crazy public access has host from Austin Texas who is now we know as Alex Jones yes and this is what year this was ninety. I'd say ninety nine ninety ninety nine yeah and what was his I mean how did you get him. How is he on your radar at that time? Well okay so I had to internet presence at the time. Oh Yeah who's shortwave people thought he was funny at the time. 'cause I mean he's in you know linked to Richard Linklater Movies Yeah Yeah Waking Life Life another all scanner darkly. He was definitely Austin famous because I remember we went into to get a Tuxedo. He was going to some big fancy event and in the in the Tuxedo stored the guy said you know Scottish quite sheepishly said like I listen to you every night Alex but he wasn't like I could tell the guy in the store wasn't like a conspiracy theorist. He was somebody who listen to Alex like entertainment yeah. What was he at that point when you met him? was He as crazy as his today he he was less well. He was definitely as charismatic and is clearly going. Places says this is why like I'd love to say that I was a soothsayer but he was he was obviously going places. The first time I met him he just it was at Waco is up. David Crushes Place at Waco and Alex Hood rebuilt it with listener donations and so we went I went and Randy Weaver for you know who've assure them ruby rich mean Randy Weaver drove to Waco also by the way Nancy yes and you're still Jewish at this point yes so definitely definitely a bit softer. There is after they did go to a couple of those training camps and like <hes>. What was it Arianna nation old guy that ran that Bush the Turner Diaries Yeah Yeah but yeah so I I mean there are still on the Nazi spectrum? Definitely I've been say you should probably avoid people that are in any way associated with nonsense N._F._l.. I always felt pretty safe around. Weavers Randy's mainly because these daughter rate show was just like a door. She's delightful she. She was like seventy befriends within London like art student who happen to be heavily armed because she came from about family but you keep in touch with what happens like. What am I regrets you know I've tried to? I've tried to get back in touch. Rachel Weaver often happens with the Phelps family and these things that people you know there is those Neo Nazi. Let's see a blonde twins Prussian blue the Panzer Division whatever call and they've since become sort of lefty hippy hippy types of Phelps Phelps and yeah I mean a lot of these people and I wonder if the weavers US I've I've often wondered about it was it was one of my happiest this journalistic experiences doing that show 'cause they were in Li- There in Montana and Idaho not never been the Pacific northwest and I loved it and we just got on like a like. A House got on really well uh-huh yeah. What would the doors within H._R.? Randy was crazed yeah but I guess the question is and I I suffer from this problem a little bit you know as a journalist I tend to fall in love with everybody I tend to I mean it's your job to be able to relate to everyone October chameleon into situations which I see journalists I can't do that and it's you know it's like you're not getting the things they shouldn't think that you love them. I told the story I think once and this is just podcast when I was with somebody and I hope you didn't listening because it was a <hes> a producer we went into bar. God it was like basically in somebody's house and I ordered like a high highlight for something and he was <hes> I heard him at the the bar talking to the moon about trying to explain what was this is not how you do it. You didn't ask for an IVA and the woman was like. I don't know what that what I know what an e._p._a.. fucking budweiser just come on fit in but I find often that I ended up liking these people despite the fact that I find their views a porn yeah yeah me too I mean I liked richler. At the beginning. I liked Alex so I should explain just to finish close to many fascinating characters hairdresser. Yeah we went to wake. I think it was my idea because obviously in so many people's minds the burning of David Crushes Church of the shootings weavers are so kind connected randy just happened to mention to me that he'd never been to to to Waco so I say go trip so we weren't we we weren't road trip to to David crushes place and they were just finishing off rebuilding. The church folk rights was there Oh wow perennial all presidential candidates legendary militia yeah I know is this young guy. Twenty six zero two looks forty six. I'm I I know it's him. 'cause randy weaver was like like a star-struck child is like Oh my God this Alex Jones in one thousand nine hundred yeah because in militia and sort of white separatist circles he was already Eh Star but on an Austin sick too but other than that completely unknown so randy was like Oh my God I listened to you. I'm such a fan and so I started talking to Alex accent. Straightaway Alex was <hes> you know clearly very good at what he does and you say that you know back when you were friends with him. I mean and it's only only recently that because I I remember when I was in his studio in Austin shooting there and I think we're texting yes and I it was really funny and I hope you don't mind me saying this and if you can kind of that but I remember us saying like you know he's mad at me for this kindle kindle single or whatever it was called at the time that you did and you were explaining yourself to me to pass onto him and I was like he's even moderate it'd be now you went full bore. I did it this American Life Story About him which I think he hates and that was about his high school yeah yeah which just you know kind of some of the the key to what he became. What did you like your time with him? You enter Bohemian Grove with him and I should. It's hard for people to understand you weren't really around in the ninety. S A coma Baccari to there was like this was before they done anything particularly bad and there were warnings. I In <hes> in which Lynch movie You'd see in Houston confused you know he didn't he wasn't at that point hounding the parents of children or or being Islamophobic Surpa Colli like that stuff came later in the politics at the time. Were not really they was he political times more just like bizarre conspiracies it it was sort of. I suppose the politics which I guess is a kind of libertarian anti-globalists sort of thing but it was kind of it all felt so pretty vague they can siphon who would have figured that that would end up in the white cheese from from hanging out in the woods. I've some barrel chested lunatic. I couldn't believe it I was I was at the gym twenty years later and I just happened to put my headphones just as somebody said to trump like you okay back on Q. and A. at a campaign rally like you're going back on the Alex Jones Show Alex Jones Guy Yeah I I was I was stunned. It is stunning and when I was with him he was two thousand seventeen maybe sixteen and he was talking about you can never tell with. Jones is that he was saying you know what I want to talk to the President Michael I tell you it's and it's like you talk to them. Do you actually have 'cause he overstates his influence in so many anyway as Roger Stone does the same thing and I mean the question that everybody asked me and I'm sure everybody's asked you when I came back was. Is it an act right. I'm happy happiness acoustic obsessed with this yeah. I'M GONNA ask that question a million times and I've changed my answer used to say I think I like. It's not an act act but I think there's assertive element of exaggeration to and the reason why I always thought that was because we're human grove soon after we left Baheen Grove Alex started announcing that he had overheard these two old men Bahamian Grove whisper to each other like you said he was walking along one of the one of bylanes opinion grove already saw these two men episode of the Simpsons any overheard one side to the other yeah. We're going to get that dialect it which is exactly exactly what Alex Jones would want but he would be absolutely right and it's funny because I was there. The day that the the Russia's ambassador to Turkey was murdered remember that in the art gallery and and he went on the air and he was talking about how NATO NATO is responsible for it and Blah Blah Blah and the globalist and so we had to sit down interview and it's it's it's foolish to debate a conspiracy theorist because they just make take things up right. I mean there's no way of debate like sort of rebutting these things and at this point it was like I said Alex.. This has happened six hours ago my sources on in this and I was like you don't have sources in fucking Turkey. It's not going to tell you the man from NATO. It's like this is not a real. I mean you can't debate yeah yeah exactly exactly but in that moment later on I gotTa Cross with Alex I was on the phone and I said to monarchs. You know it's really irresponsible few few to to be like making up lies about things that we didn't see it but he mean grove and he said what what what are you talking about and. I said like you know you saying that you ever heard to Ottoman going. I'm going to get him elected. I said you either and I swear to God. I mean it's twenty years ago and memories play tricks on people but my strong memory at that moment Alex said today. I'm we know that I didn't overhear them. Say That but I'm not gonNA tell my listeners that yeah you know which which obviously was an admission admission. So when did it change for you and you realize Oh. He actually believes much later that was like my evidence for probably twenty years or eighteen years. Yes whenever anybody asked I said the I think he's faking it because I would tell that story but much later I got this call so I'm at the Republican convention in Twenty Sixteen. Yeah and Alec like there's a guy who's working for Alex as a cameraman and he's he's spending quite a lot of time with me like hiking. I just noticed these like standing next to me. There was little mini riot and me and Josh will huddle together and vaguely thank you. This is kind of weird. Alex Jones is come around is like bodied spend more time with me than with Alex.. I didn't quite get it and he he started texting may like if you stand at this corner this time you'll see Alex Jones and Roger Stern Alex's meeting Roger Stone there have at this time so I think this is really nice and then after the convention was over School Josh again he started texting me and saying when you know I've I'm very conflicted. I've worked Alex fears and I'm conflicted and do you want to meet some time so it was he wanted to be like Alex Jones whistle blower so so we met in a hotel in DC and and it became clear he didn't have anything specific to whistle blow. He just wanted to vent his frustrations ends about about his biggest frustration. was that like he'd come to realize that. Pepsi doesn't use aborted human tissue flavored streams so trump rallies like go up to people at least they look. I want to know that a lot of videos on true you. You're saying that yeah. He was saying this to light people trump rallies and he said to me that people would say about okay what you say. I know it's true yeah and he would say but I'm the one making the videos that are wrong. It doesn't matter it doesn't matter yeah so <hes> so then Josh said to me that he hit the secret from Alex's childhood <hes> which is what I ended up making the second show about but another thing that he said to me I said to it's fake right lie and I told him that story about the telephone call twenty years earlier and he looked really baffled and said look. I spent every day with Alex.. It's it's not fake it the way the Alex is on on cameras exactly the way that he is in his office. Yeah I thought when the cameras went off the volume went down maybe from attend to eight and it becomes quite godless and yeah and you know like I was saying before you know he was fun. He was like Meghan Kelly does interview in. Was You know brutalized for you no no even talking to him putting him on the air and I was offended that nobody brutalized me but yeah I think it's her Fox News background. They hate her yeah. I have plus. She's she's lied mainstream evening yes yeah and she was getting seventy million dollars for from N._B._C. Z. or something but yeah and I ask those questions to and he kind of I have to go look at the tape he walked back the school shooting stuff uh newtown stuff and you could tell that he was and I was pushing him and he got up and said he had to go to the bathroom was clue it he didn't he just went to the room and he was because I was pushing. Calm Down Yeah Yeah Yeah. I mean he's when it's on specific things he I mean the things that he says and I left. I actually made them leave it on the PS because it was just a breath from him and I interrupt him and he's like you know says he's not going to Hillary. Clinton and he's like these people doing this. I don't know the Satan. Satan Satan is talking about and it's so natural to him that is just flavors the conversation and when you stop him and ask him. He's almost baffled by it. You don't you you don't know that this and I'm like no. I don't live in your world at and it's a very strange thing but you know so. You've done obviously Alex Jones. You got got you went from there and again. This is not sort of linear time wise psychopaths and minister goats and other books. Let's get to the one on this sort of still relevant today and the one that one that starts with with you with me. I am in that book. The book is called <hes> so you've been publicly shamed. Tell the genesis of that because again you were before anyone else in this and it was just like people are online and then you saw sort of a trend in this something sinister about it yeah. You know I think like I don't buy any of this in the book because it so like solid cystic but honestly I think the real genesis was that I just just moved to New York from London on moving to a new city. Got was quite a sort of nonplus in for me. I was very happy in London. Somebody's nose now living in New York. I figured out that weather from decided to and so my so I lost I kinda lost my confidence and for for the first year of living in New York and this is why when police in Kosovo subsystem explanation but I'd see people getting publicly shamed on twitter and because I felt like I was like flailing around in my own life having moved to this new city and not knowing what I was doing I found myself empathizing more with the recipients of the shaming a little bit then the I would have done when I was living in London in front of confidence in that despite their crime real or or <hes> well for me. It's a similar thing like I fall in love. Everyone that horrible views is an sympathizing with people the ones that even I have you've taken down and and of course I mean we talked about this. Well we felt bad. Legitimately felt bad about that. First I interview I gave after that because I told you when he was calling me and calling me and calling and calling me nonstop and he finally picked up because I told them and I think he put this number. I said this is bordering on harassment and he said to me. The only question is are you going to talk to the media in. I'm such a dope. I was like I I don't. I mean what I wrote is what I wrote. I don't think anyone's GonNa WanNa talk about this and then two weeks later. I think that's the lesson of your other two but the first one I did was at the New York observer the Guy Right and I it was probably two hours later and it was I didn't I didn't even know his recording and it was just like a transcript of me talking about how bad what I felt about the whole yeah and it's kind of I mean the way I think that's why content to do because of the neoconservative pace because I realized it was sort of forming but I to realize I was going to buy a book about public shaming and I wanted to start it with a big setpiece and I thought the but I wasn't like judgment in later stories like with justine eighteen psycho. I felt that I was defending her because I felt she'd been unfairly treated. She was the tweet woman yeah but with you and into in for the listeners who don't remember this choose the one who's a nobody from in like H._r.. Or something yeah certainty to it a fall and she's <hes> who's going to start arrogance that go into Africa hope. I don't get AIDS. Just kidding. I'm white which obviously is a terrible combination of words but it doesn't take long to figure out what you're saying yeah. She's she's doing like a bit like Randy. Newman bitter talk yeah making fun of herself yeah like we're I.. I mean it's a it's a sort of joke about her privilege exactly and yeah everyone that night was like you know we need to destroy this monster and particularly <hes> crazy example because by the time she landed in South Africa the whole the whole thing unfolded while she was asleep on a plane and the Hashtag was <hes> has justin landed yet. Somebody had figured out what flight she was linked to a flat tracker websites. Everybody could watch the fly a nobody ever miss thinking. This is hilarious. I think it that was the first great shaming so I think a lot of people thought you remember sort of like contemporaneous was happening. Oh Yeah Yeah I think it was my first thought as it as it. US have tweet. I popped up on my twitter. Feed was oh somebody's Fox and then but ten seconds later twenty seconds later. I was like this is all fucked up. 'cause it's clear it's clear that the joke she was trying to make him and she didn't tell the joke well but on contextual really it was troublesome kind of obvious what she was trying to do that and everyone's like as far as I could tell all bunch people wilfully misunderstanding it because they just enjoyed the drama. They enjoyed shopping ideology shelters even though she didn't want it I mean these people in the book who deserve it and people who don't mm Sako had intended that joke as people wanted it to be yeah. Oh do you think that I wouldn't look if she was a a kind of enthusiastic racist. Yeah I wouldn't but what if she was just somebody who was not enthused as racist sort sort of casually unaware of her racial bias he's or something is was the punishment commensurate with the crime if it because has the punishments this is the thing that's interesting to me is that they're so harsh. I mean even reading. Jane Mares piece on Al Franken. Al Franken is of course a big public figure. You know this is a eight women that accused thing. No one's accused him of sexual assault. Everyone's accused him to sort of being uncomfortable and awkward and of course John Maher starts the peace with him like shuffling around his apartment and his socks and the the the blinds are drawn and he's like despondent and depressed and they have we gone too far well I can. I can personally vouch for that because I see Al Franken Al Franken's. Kids live close to me so I've seen him two or three times. <hes> I've met him <hes>. I I interviewed him interviewed me for Air America when the minister came out at a have a slightly bad memory of that moment which I've never told the stove I'll Italian justice because it's sort of something Jane Mayer said because in the Jane Mayer Peace. They said he's got a reputation for something a bit. Broosk yes so I was other trade from D._C.. He to New York <hes> watching very drake. The Mike Leigh Film abortion is not the most miserable film you possibly it is. What should the film betrayed. Luckily more and more like leak despondent. I got off the China went straight to America and that's sort of joke. I said to Al Franken like I was sat down with. The Sun was just finishing. He was about to interview me and I said you know I just I said. I just watched out. Just watch drake on the train coming here and you know road and it's maybe it was a bad idea to that suppressing movie before doing. Just you know doing this comedic interview and he kind of well. What would you do that was. What would you do that and then finished him any. Why would you watch the film yeah. Why would I watch. Why would I watch it depressing film before during the comedic interview. I said it's like a little funny thing to essay and Al Franken I in a way I thought about it. Initially is that the Jane Mayer is not doing great job here because I mean he sounds like a complete astle and then I realized has it. Maybe that's the point is that he's not yet pervert. He's an asshole right and those are two different. Things yeah okay so that's how. I met him years later. I was listening to giant scientist. The Senate is his book Sanish really sad because if not if none of this happened he could be he could be in the race me absolutely and and he walked past me in on in Riverside Park. We gave each other big smiles and then a couple of weeks later the whole thing happened and then I've seen him about twice since then then on on both occasions. He just looks broken. Yeah and it's really sad I mean you know. This is why people keep shouting at him. You shouldn't have quit the Senate because because every time anybody sees Al Franken as far as I can tell you is to in my situation is that he looks like a broken man I i.. I'm not sure I always I always feel bad about. It's like I guess comics do their their routines every night and people here at twice but I always feel bad that maybe feel heard this before in the show. I don't remember upset but I was. About ten feet from Al Franken when he was told Oh yeah that's a picture of me walking and there's Al Franken getting up from the committee is described as PS and he he's he's walking up at the beginning of the committee meeting and he doesn't attend that's him walking out the end of his career. I was standing right there and Al Franken's there and the guy comes in whispers <unk> prison his ear and we were shooting a piece Senator Blumenthal. WHO's on the Judiciary Committee? We got there early Franken's the first person in there I mean others Al Franken Guy we're sitting there guy whispers in his ear and he gets up and walks out but twenty minutes later alert comes on the phone and says Al Franken's career is over you know does the punishment fit the crime. Was it <music>. I'm an because there's so much more has happened since he wrote this book <hes> and I think I remember you talking twitter. I'm doing an appendix or something or or a new forward or preference offers and what recent versions of this should I do yeah and I got like a million. I mean they're having every day yeah and and it's got a now. It's turned into what they call. Come so coach. Yes which I find the thing I find most offensive about that is I think I presume that. Most of the people who are who are canceling people were a young. I'm they don't understand how important workers they don't have both both in in terms of providing for for yourself in fear family but also your you know my my whole psychological. Wellbeing is is is linked to in my work. I mean it's your identity in Sofa bunch of fucking teenagers to decide that that person shouldn't have a lively on it is just chilling. It's chilling in it so you know you're doing this from ignorance you doing this because you haven't. You haven't lived long enough. I interviewed attributed Guy Pieces online the guy who the guy from the feminist t shirt company mail owner feminist t-shirt company WHO and this is the difference in time. This is the difference when you wrote the book and what happened now. He started this company and wrote a facebook post around the time he started at two thousand twelve thirteen or something like that and he he confessed to being a bit of a creep. Nothing like nothing violent or anything like that the worst I think was you know he put a woman's hand on his subpoenas while she was sleeping and she pulled away and that was according to him and this is why I'm starting this so you know now five years later six years later staff with a bunch of twenty one year olds twenty two year olds and he's he's very diligent about trans employees. Women of color is a very very serve you talked to him and he's like so steeped in the language and everything from that Universe and somebody found the post and in the past confessing to that was a badge of honor. It was like I have I have evolved as a person and then it's like Oh my you did this. We're going to destroy you and they went to him. They say you have to give us the company. It's our company now and he said no and then he fired them. So of course the headline is male owner of feminist t shirt company who confesses to sexual assault fires feminists and we're for him and when I talked to them and this was you know Henry Kissinger on the Iran Iraq war. It's too bad they both couldn't lose this. These people were ever it was awful in it and one of the women was saying I said. Can he ever come back do you. I think you should ever and she said no and I said never and she said no absolutely it should be the end of it. He's he's he's they call him a sexual assailant <hes> which is interesting language and so a little later it was a very interesting kind of a rough neighborhood in Philadelphia and I imagine a kid around here pulls a gun on somebody robs a store when you're seventeen seventeen eighteen nineteen goes to prison for five six ten years gets out and you know he's a young minority. Kids had a tough background the rest of it. Would you hire him yeah. Of course I would the guy who is the rubbing. Maybe he's a creep yeah. nope the guy who is potentially you know pull shot somebody but he pulled the gun. Whatever that's fine? It's very strange. Yeah that disciplines I noticed on twitter right from the beginning when you when we will watch making a merger sure we'll <hes> identified the contacted defense attorneys but give us the power of Justice and we purchased yeah absolutely and it's not how we see ourselves but it's what we they do now. Do you think that like so here's a question that you're not gonna like because I mean I would say that you're broadly broadly Amanda the left you've come from the left that sort of Guardian ad in fact if anything I failed lately since trump got elected I myself moving further and further to them. I think a lot of people I think that you know any I mean to get run screaming away from that stuff. I mean it's a lot of my friends. I mean I completely understand it to AH. This is something that is happening. I would say with more frequency on the left. I mean there are definitely conservative versions of this. There's conservative speech each policing cancelled culture in their own way sort of McCarthyism that grips these people they don't want certain people speak on campus et Cetera they want people canceled fired from on their jobs for wanting flags burned cabinet kind of thing but it seems to me that it's kind of on that side of the aisle more yeah more good. Why do you think that it maybe historically public shaming is is one of the few weapons of the of the dispossessed and I noticed that criticism when you've been publicly shamed came up people people said Johnson's attacked Social Johnson's attacked public shaming public shaming is one of the few weapons marginalized people have so Jon Ronson must be attacking marginalized people which is which was bullshit but I think in that is probably why you you get more shaving on the left than there on the rights and she do you think is a problem because I think it's tied Colloton culture and I think there's a huge backlash against this on the left? I mean today's story in New York magazine about this podcast <hes> red scare owns owns three young Bernie Sanders supporting women who are really anti and they just they're like the Santa's of the anti left basically and they're hardcore Sanders <hes> Social Social Democrats and they're like this stuff is crazy. Look bad you know the alienates the working class right yes. I've noticed that backlash clash too and I'm and I'm I'm happy for it. I've not one one way that all of this is really burning heart at the moment is particularly imprison with the Trans Schramm's versus what what the transpeople call turfs exclusion radical feminists and this is the thing that's happening both from different factions on the list. If it's it's insane I mean the Guy Graham from Father Ted known twenty-five yeah <hes> and who by the way prior to this stuff I when I size two hundred feet I was like this guy is I mean he. This should be you know in the daily worker or something I mean he's a lefty guy. Yeah hardcore left. He and I really liked him for a long time but he's become you know he's become like a leader of of a of I've got my words. Catholic be shows 'cause they just destroy trump you know if they perceived that you've hit them. They about ten times harder to the extent that they will say things like <hes>. Do you only see about this person the book us out onto the DMZ rope. If you know anything about this person I've seen it happened to a couple of particularly want John's thing yeah yeah yeah and one of them has been a guest on this show <hes> Jesse's in Gaul rights for a New York magazine Yeah he's become persona non grata because of this trend stuff and I don't think he's getting it from the side because he's more critical. If the transit yeah I mean he's I understand the debate and I don't want to because if I do understand that then I'll decide to wait in and just decide what I did and on on it was like a like a suicide you you yes well yeah because what happened was well. I I've got some so fire left Beauvais left-wing friends and they would say to me fucking Graham Leonard Her and they would sort of say. Why don't you say something you know you've no grow grow twenty five years Gregson or this to be the oldest harm to transpeople? Why didn't you say something and I was like Oh yeah so so I resist it for a couple of saying anything but I was kind of year yeah maybe a year then Graham went off to my friend Maeve and I realize I noticed that I did not speak out? I was not a little bit of we felt bad about. It and you're gonNA Niemoeller moment. Are you broadly you know. Do you disagree with him. Oh Yeah Yeah yeah yeah it feels it seems to me like watch Donna like the I'm not an encyclopedic knowledge of it but I can tell you know what they do is they'll take an isolated incident and go on and on and on about it so there was an occasion where either Trans Women of somebody acclaimed H._B._O.. Trans woman were said to a women's prison and rate to women in prison and you know they they use that all the time but as far as I can tell you yeah that's happened so it feels like that I mean you can argue on the merits pretty easily right. They can say this but it seems that the counter-arguments I don't even resemble arguments anymore they resemble again mobs and destroy this yeah crazy if you attack them because what they're saying saying. Is You know trump's. Women are women that men are if your supportive of the of these men than you'll men's rights activists who who wants women to be unsafe in their sex spaces that argument yeah I take on this this very strange thing as the woman who's <hes> feminist woman who is banned from twitter Canadian woman. WHO said you know if you have a penis man you can't be woman right and she was banned for that and it's both yeah it's I'm crazy on? Both sides say my sympathy because well so what happened was I was I was speaking toward May and just as I was drifting off to sleep. I saw somebody tweet tweet Graham Likewise Donaldson following you and this has happened a few times like trans people will tweet me. I notice you still follow Gremlin. Does that mean you're also so we're transphobic and I would like message them back to say. Look you know I've known grain flat twenty five years. I don't agree with anything he's saying but I'm not GonNa follow him just because some strange on the Internet tells me to do you respond to that stranger because you're afraid of them because it's a crank right if a crank said to you and John Your opinion about the Cavanaugh hearings hearings your opinion about free trade is bullshit. You would go about your day yes so I don't know why but a couple of times I did respond -tations. It's pretty yeah pretty strong but so so my my years zero and all of this was not using ground zero <hes> was drifting off to sleep separately tweets Graham was some folio so I quickly look. I'm drifting off to sleep. Please leave me out of this. I mean I fell asleep and then the next morning I woke up in Ingraham tweeted. Something like Jon. Ronson follows me because he thinks you all Aso's meaning you know fellow travelers so I just thought Oh man fuck you know and that's sort of been wanting to say something so so because he went off to Mermaids and people were saying to me. You know what you're a coward for not grams Graham stewing damage. He's putting people at risk ideas that the thing about this is a good question to ask you and your experience with this is it I always find data really disingenuous argument like I would. I would defend my friend as as I think you did and I sympathize with anyone who's attacked by a mob trolls but I think that the harm argument is where it starts breaking down because there isn't tangible examples I mean I think one of the eye has anyone been killed because all I hear all the time is deference death having a death-ray and there's like an egg account who says you should fucking die or something something and then they have police protection and it's like they're a martyr but I think it's being used oftentimes to limit speech and saying please don't when he stopped doing this because you're putting this person harm. It's like no I'm having a debate about something and the person might be wrong about it but I I'm. I'm not in <hes> because I <hes> you know I've I've had all of those thoughts and I agree with you like I haven't <hes> <hes> 'cause I've looked around a little bit too to see if if there's any links between violence against transpeople and on that particular faction of anti-trumps people and the SF <hes> I've found anything yeah I mean it's even when people say that I've gotten hate tweets oftentimes. I can't find them when I look for yeah so so no so I do I do agree with you but nonetheless I I said to Graham Latu something like you know Graham. You know it's not you know it's not right to say that I think that you critics assholes because I don't and I think you take isolated instances museum to smooth community anyway after I tweeted that the gates of Hell Opens Graham just over and over and over again and was like basically rallying people yeah. Even we've been friends for decades. I mean do you think in your book. Did you see examples of this. Is that do people we'll do that when they themselves have been victims of the mob and I victims unused that sort of broadly is that you know he has been attacked pretty ruthlessly people who who say you hate transpeople you WanNa see us dead and then in a response to that is not to be contrite or to explain is to is to have your own flying monkey plus grams been very open about being being politics a child and so I think you know I think it's probably some some of that. Twitter is just bad for everybody isn't so bad yeah. I should get off you know went down near the wake and it was fucking. It was amazing. It was Simpson's so everyone goes when she kind of. Did you anticipate this when you wrote that trending this direction yeah yeah yeah. It's why I wanted to write the book. I thought something in really you know this is really except it's only GonNa get worse but I didn't anticipate trump getting elected. I do think if you read say even came to his was published published in two thousand fifteen and I think I'm gonNA sound like I'm too much in love with myself but but I think <hes> imbedded you know in in the same way that them came out just before nine eleven my extremism and conspiracy theories and when you read in the light of nine eleven okay you could fail failed some things bubbling with shamed to I think he can sort of fail. You know what trump is is the twitter president and feel. I suppose what I'm getting at is I would notice just in soccer for instance Breitbart in for wars. You know <hes> <hes> they would. They were propagandizing Faca of the justin soccer. Incident Lewis started by Gawker yeah but I mean the right. Were like saying just that they're doing now <hes> with the squad. It's like here's a weakness. Let's fucking exploited this weakness. Here's the left acting in a way that we think is weak. Let's get them so the fact is bright by an Mm Fish Yeah. I mean it is I the more I talked to trump voters. It was always this idea of like. I can't believe people call me a racist they everything racist and they attack attack everybody in this way and there's these mobs come after us if we speak our mind yeah and they were voting for Bernie in the primary in voting for trump <hes> in the election and there are a lot of people that I talked to like that but you know I mean the thing is is that this am. I probably wrong about this. I'm just I'm taking a total leap here. Is this the book that Changed Your Life More than any other. Actually the cheese and any other was minister. Go because George Clooney made oh that's right yeah Geico you get a lot of money. Full wasn't like an amazing but it was enough to move. You're playing fucking keyboards and mentioned you know in Russia ashore. Everything's a windfall lock exactly but I mean the one that change in the sense that like what are we ought to be honest so you've been published. I'm definitely maybe like this kind of cultural fake but straight away I felt uncomfortable and resistant and cut I retreated as quickly as possible but people come to right and that's when when you said Al Franken I immediately asked. Has He come to as he talked. He has this half and you know I became friends. We're we're talking this before. I became friends with Amanda Knox through you you brought her to dinner that has contacted you yeah because she had been shamed in in Italy you become I'm good friends with Monica Lewinsky. Who is God? I mean that's the knee Plus Ultra like ninety shaming and who you quite enjoys a person yeah life and so this I mean you become this person like so. I know you have to go in a sec so let me just go to this. I said to somebody who who had shaming thing they wanNA talk about. You should talk to Jon Ronson and I don't know if it was me that did this but it resulted in in some way again. It's not because me and my maybe have this idea zone and you reached out to a guy named Kevin Moore. Yes and Kevin Moore is a porn producer whose wife August aims James committed suicide in you fantastic <hes> audible <hes> you know it's like I guess it's a podcast. It's like well now. You can get it online regular popcorn so it's the only time unfortunately it's your west birthday happy birthday Mrs Johnson so I can't get into this but it was the only time I actually disagree with a couple of things with listening to it. I was like John. I'm GONNA send you an email about this and i. I didn't actually do it but it's it's a terrific. I recommend take time to say the same age okay I I loved it and I I recommend everybody but you've done to talk about the porn world and how how the fuck did you get. There is is it because you're a PERV and you're like I want to know more about this. No IT's British people end up there. Martin Amos's ends up you end up the what I think it was actually there's a connection for me connection between Justine Sacco the AIDS tweet woman. I'm the porn community. I'm the connection is there I think on both occasions the the bullied at its legitimized bullying. You defend them pretty pretty strenuously yeah. That's what it it's like. I Li- I like finding for one of a better phrase like my marginalized pillow or people pushed out of society who other people haven't the thought of <hes> just in soccer is one of those people are the people haven't thought of like she was. She was the victim of you know of of bullying but nobody saw her as a bullet person first and they sort of as an aggressor. I'm with the Porn Community people what I noticed that people just don't want to think about them because if they think about them and think about their lives they're not going to be able to Surkov to them. So there's this huge amount of distance I I met this woman. This young woman called Dacoota who is a church school in New Orleans and she was telling me about Oh her phone her habit and I said did you ever learn their names and she said No. I never learned their names. It's like when you kill a deer you don't name it because then you can't eat it and I am not ready stayed with me and I think that line is why I wanted to make her mixing stories about porn because I wanted to name I mean there's there's something of a you you kind of mystery in the in the Aug teams the yeah which I you know I won't reveal and people should listen to it and I also have feelings about the last days of August to be honest so they might be the same feelings. I have one Jimmy Johns okay I okay. I got mad at you for one thing. I what's going on the subway platform waiting for the train. I don't know why I remember this and you talked about Kevin and who's the husband of August committed suicide. <hes> Kevin Even said that it was because of bullying <hes> and there have been theories out there <hes> the he was involved yeah and you talked about that for a little you bet and I didn't think he should have talked about it because there is no evidence whatsoever and I didn't think it was widespread enough out on the Internet itself <hes> to give it any because I thought I talked to someone who is listening my my friend billy as a producer who absolutely loves you and she was listening to it and she was like do you think Kevin is the last thing I wanted to narrative insect. I know that that wasn't your intention because it didn't pop up elsewhere in the thing but when I heard that I was I don't know I don't know about them. Yeah you know I've I. I also feel uneasy about it. <hes> I think the reason why we put that in in the end was this because for several months of last year that that was consuming us like you know because it where we're consuming us like is Kevin telling us the truth if he's not why not and we were consumed by an and so the industry parts of the industry honestly you know the what the other parts what's the last days of August when we find out other things that happen to August that Kevin wasn't involved with like this really bad shoot that she didn't Las Vegas and her relationship internship with their family which was very problematic and so on. I you know I feel happy with <hes> so yeah so you know I've agonized about that. Did you hear have you heard from him saying Yeah Tote to a couple of times since the show was angry with you know <hes> no no he wasn't now. I was wondering if you'd be didn't sound good chat and so don't put words in his mouth but <hes> I'll tell you why you should listen to. This book is beyond the fact that it's that is really really brilliant. Work is the only time I have ever heard Johnson. Get angry and hang up on someone. WHO's calling it a delighted? I'll just I'll leave that dangling. They could get through to that point of the 'cause. It's terrific. I mean when you let you after this but at the end of that the butterfly effect which was which was different it was kind of the economics and the technology aspects of porn and how it's changed everything this one was more about which I think is definitely I mean of course the people are huge. The characters are huge in butterflies like to but there's I mean this is like a painful one to listen to because these people are so fucked up so many of them yeah in one is your relationship with that community like now and you know it's good. Thank God I could I was he's pretty much. Everyone feels that even as as you know dark and terrible is the last days of August is it's still it's still true in fact his August one into this industry. She was let down by a lot of pain or nine in the end. It'll go got too much when she took alive so I think I think the industry in general and said the strikes the butterfly effect more because it's such a positive story about the industry but I think in defending them against people that are stealing money from them. Yeah yeah absolutely protect grows. If there are villains in the butterfly fat villains is a big word. You know it's the Tech Bros.. Not The problem people so I love the Butterfly Fatai turn on on its head what people normally consider reputable in disreputable pro although these nice people really think of tech pros is that people know the things you say you say a dark and awful yeah is that because the industry three is awful because you seem to have a positive yet have in some sense much more so than most people I want. You know what I want to feel really positive though industry because I because my my sort of rose tinted view is it's a community of outsiders who can kind of make it in society you know supporting each other and and if they've got troubles it's because of things that happen to them outside of the industry. I've got this romantic view of the industry but I suppose as the months it's progress. I started to think well maybe it is a pity you know your mind is changed a little bit a little bit. I suppose it's it's it's children. I mean it's it's it's full of children. I mean the problem with the industry and I think Kevin would be the first to admit this too is that it's basically this is going to sound like a some people can allow roller is what I'm about to say I think if you had to sum up kind of what psychologically wrong with the industry mystery it's like and let me caveat this by saying a lot of people go into the industry and it's fine like sex positive people who've grown up with Paul and herb that feel no shame about sex about having sex on camera they go into the industry. Nothing bad happens. They represented by Mark Doc speak Llama. WHO's like the super agent? Everybody says it's a lovely guy. I've never heard anything bad about him. And then they leave their own accord and nothing bad happens those stories ready a to exist important and I think it's really important to who go on to mainstream success to yeah Sasha Grey and I think it's so important to say that because otherwise you're just tarring the whole industry with audiology you know which which I hate I hate doing that but I think you've got other people. Who've had some you know issues choose growing up some you know abuse they enter the industry as a kind of <hes> you know a place to try and make their way in the world? Maybe some of them are you know important because they're somehow dealing with some issues apt to them when they were younger they see did they find these older men <hes> on the kind of latch onto them because they they need to sort of responsible figuring their lives but I'm these automated commence overseen to be responsible and sensible but because he's a manager onto the porn industry. They'll fucking kids themselves. Why do you want to spend your life in porn with dating a a bunch of eighteen point says if you didn't if you want yourself emotionally stunted so you've got these kids were looking for responsible older people but the people themselves and and and so nobody's those looking is that everybody wants it to be a community where everybody's looking after each other and being supportive but there isn't enough emotional snow maturity sometimes to make that a reality and I think I think that supposedly industry so listen to those two podcasts butterfly effect and then the last days is an August you got you got something? Even ashamed is going to be on BBC radio four yeah. They've just put it out like a bridge A._B._C.. Sounds thing I've gone. I've sort of come to ground bare and I'm not really. I'm figuring out next what I'm writing. I'm writing the show of sounded N._D._A.. So I can't talk about it. I just telling a television show no live show. It's a live show yeah and are you. Are you onstage and no okay well. I still do that because I needed the tour irving winds and in fact I was talking on stage about my uneasy feelings about making the last days of August which which you too early I so I've been thinking so I've sort of my my stage. Show is is kind of grappling with that stuff so now you're down writing. Yeah I pretty much got that garlic two or three London nothing eminence coming out and probably won't be a year so but that's we can't expect a book or anything so I really want to. I love to start writing a book but you have some finger mind sewed so cloudy. I always think like people Karai is like I can't write another book because I've got to the end of my thought. Process process of saving publicly shamed fell at the end of authority says this is always a challenge to kind of knew him because you've put everything you've got into the last one well I went. Uh I gotta go back and look at the book I remember reading it because I think Adam Davidson gave me a galley of it and I thought and and I don't think I had one objection I think until then I tell you something what was it I can't remember I think it was this the kind of juxtaposition of me and Joan as me like Oh yeah sloppy but forgotten amazing neighborhood yeah it was okay. It was good then but uh be I would have been better if I lived in Crown Heights or something yeah yeah some shootings and there's no that I think that was my my via over the tough objects at when you see yourself betrayed and I am kind of a I'm coming across as kind of you know shitty like disheveled journalists. He's never going to really make it and I also this was a very notable thing about back. Then which was there you know your your talent level was was above your success level so so you were combated by that but I actually I'd say rightly so it's like you should have been doing better and the fact that he had them better ever since and you've achieved your this shows the you had a right to be sort of enraged. Do you know that's the first time anyone on this show has ever said anything nice about me so I appreciate that and I appreciate vitiated comes from somebody. I respect so much so Jon. Thank you for joining us. I know you have to run and we won't anticipate anything now. Sweater just even much that all right don't fucking Auntie transpeople enough to leave yeah yeah. It's always gonNA be somebody because I remember after the book came out your shamed for something. He was in a galley copy so it's always it's always something uncorrected one. It has happened to you a few times

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3: The Wisdom of the Crowd

Slate Presents: Standoff | What Happened at Ruby Ridge?

29:00 min | 2 years ago

3: The Wisdom of the Crowd

"The following podcast contains explicit language on August. Twenty third nineteen ninety two the Weaver family cabin on a remote hilltop in Idaho, was filled with grief pain and fear. Over the previous two days. The weavers only son fourteen year old Sammy had been killed in an exchange of gunfire with a team of US marshals. Sammy's mother Vikki had been shot dead by an F B I sniper family friend, Kevin Harris have been shot in the chest. He was drifting in and out of consciousness and Randy Weaver the fugitive. The government was after had taken a bullet in the arm. Ten month old Alicia needed care the two older daughters needed comfort and their mother's body was wrapped in a blanket by the kitchen table. Meanwhile, just outside the Weaver property, a different kind of fervor was building at the barriers police set up to block access to the Weaver house. Protesters have gathered at the roadblock about three miles from the Weaver's cabin and whenever vehicle go five supporters left their outrage show. Crashed to the Y. In addition down to worrying about Randy Weaver's wife teenage children at newborn baby in the cabin federal agents. Now, must worry how these local residents will react if there is violence on the mountain. The protesters who arrived at the police roadblock, included, friends and neighbors of the weavers including Tony and Jackie Brown. Who we heard from in our last episode? He wants to be left alone wants to be a separatist. They're creating the problem in your blood gets shed. It's on their hands on his. Alongside Randy's friends were dozens of other protesters and that crowd grew by the day. They were a rag tag group, and they weren't all there for the same reasons. Thank lewd skinheads and Neo Nazis. Plus disillusioned Vietnam veterans anarchists and anti-tax ideologues adults and even children carried homemade signs with slogans like feds shot I. Kwok? We bought this Jeep Cherokee revenue in the area. Manipu- one point five Neo Nazis in Jeep were arrested trying to smuggle weapons into Randy the ATF apprehended them on a back road leading to the cabin and found rifles ammunition and a banner reading whites must arm in the vehicle pose a handgun, a Dega and numb chucks or seized relearn tonight agents reporter John Allison was one of the first to arrive on the scene when he saw the rising anger of the protesters. He began to realize that the standoff at Ruby Ridge might be more than a local crime story, the appearance of the of the broader community at the roadblock scene. Was in some ways Canarian, Nicole mine for me to understand that it was more than just a few kooks who were angry today. The the feelings are the idea that there are groups of people who are very angry with our government with law enforcement is much more accepted. Many of the protesters had never met the weavers for them. This was about the federal government stomping on white patriots. Who were just minding their own business. They were furious. And they didn't even know yet that Sammy and Vicki Weaver had been killed. They would soon find out. An august. Twenty third two days into the standoff an FBI team. Drove an armored personnel carrier to shed on the weavers property. The intended knock down the Shad so other vehicles could get through and so-. Snipers would have a clear view of the house first they took a look inside to make sure no family members were waiting in ambush. Instead, they found Sammy's body wrapped in a sheet. The marshalls had seen the boy running right after shots were fired. So they claim they didn't realize he had died in a press conference FBI agent in charge, gene, Glenn broke, the news. Appears to have died of a gunshot wound. There was immediate shock anger and tears over the news a child too young to drive was dead. Still your kids. What is the situation up there right now? Jaren I must tell you the situation is extremely volatile right now as a matter of fact, we chose to move because the situation down. There was deteriorating rapidly. The FBI was desperate to coax the family out without anymore. Bloodshed. But it wasn't clear. How to communicate with them? There was no phone line in the cabin. Randy would occasionally shout at negotiators from inside. But there was no way to engage him in conversation over the next few days the bureau tried multiple gambits negotiators. Brought Randy sister to the scene from Iowa when he asked for her. She spoke to Randy through allowed speaker let she couldn't hear his responses. Some of the approaches they tried were poorly chosen to call a paranoid anti-government extremist at one point. They drove a tank up to the house and spoke to the family through a Bullhorn. The words are difficult to make out what their point is clear. There's been enough killing it's time for the killing to stop. And then. The FBI decides to send a robot with phone. Jess Walter was a reporter on the scene who later wrote a book about ruby rich. There's no phone inside. Obviously, there's no way to communicate with the family. So they send a robot with a phone. But this robot has a shotgun attached to it also. And even though it's pointing away the family looks out and sees a robot with a shotgun and believes it's another attack Vicki's family back in Iowa had a better idea. They knew the weavers had a small radio in the cabin. And they remembered that Randy had been a fan of the radio host Paul Harvey. They enlisted Harvey to speak directly to Randy on air. I am talking to you personally. Own has been left right outside your door on the porch. Job and pick it up. Nobody will shoot. Probably wants to know what to do with Samuel's body. And also, I would arrange an attorney in Spokane to represent you. And or whomever. In the death of deputy Degan. Klay of self defence. We Andy heard the broadcast. So we heard what Harvey said next. Rickie about bitch. Vicki's body had been lying on the kitchen floor for five days. From slate podcasts. This is standoff. I'm your host Ruth Graham. I'm today's episode the nine harrowing days after the deaths of Sammy and Vicki Weaver. The FBI like the Marshall service claimed they initially had no idea they'd killed anyone when sniper Lon Horiuchi shot. Vicky. She fell backward into the house where UT said he was aiming for Randy. And then he didn't realize he hit his targets wife during the Goshi ations, then the F B I often tried to speak directly with Vicky. They knew she was the families had decision maker after all, but their approaches seemed like purposeful, psychological warfare to the family cowering inside the cabin with Vicki's corpse once a federal agents voice boomed through the loudspeaker. Good morning. Mrs weaver. Why don't you send the children out for some pancakes? Mrs Weaver each time, he says her name, it's just a dagger to these children. How don't together in the cabin the family wrote down their version of what had happened in hopes that their letter would survive them and inspire others when the feds finally killed them all Samuel Hanson? We. Lever and Vicky Jean Weaver are murders for ya Yasha and the white race. They wrote even if the rest of us die. We win. For almost a week. Nothing changed then a wildcard arrived on the scene. Was there any agent here that represents gene Glenn from the Federal Bureau of investigation, folk writes every tired army Colonel renowned for his work on behalf of US soldiers missing an action perform what he calls a citizens arrest on four top officials overseeing the siege. Bogue rights was a right wing huckster a conspiracy theorist and a celebrity to the protesters at the roadblock. He was a decorated green beret commando who had served in Vietnam. And then took a series of trips to southeast Asia to retrieve American prisoners of war, supposedly abandoned by their government, all along his goal has been to try to bring out at least one American alive, and it would open the door to negotiation for release of all of them all of his rescue attempts have been unsuccessful Grace's rescue missions had reportedly inspired the movie Rambo in which sold. Esther Stallone singlehandedly rescues abandoned POW's from bamboo cages in the jungle. Now greats was running for president on the populist party ticket which had previously nominated K K K leader, David Duke, his Logan was God guns and greats and he called for civilian militias and the end of the new world order when the standoff at Ruby Ridge began one of Randy supporters contacted greats his campaign and told them about this guy facing off against the feds. The supporter said Randy had a poster of writes on the wall of his cabin. One thing you can say about Bogue rights. He knew an opportunity when he smelled one. Immediately. I considered him. A headline hunter reporter John Allison was skeptical of grades as motives, no, I have an image of him turning up being driven by somebody and exits his vehicle sorta like general Patton getting off at Jeep or something. He knew that as soon as he stepped out of the vehicle and walked toward the crowd that people were going to start of invalid him, and he seemed to me to be enjoying that. I think he was serious in what he was trying to do that. He was interested in talking any reporter that could find him at the scene greats wanted to talk with Randy Weaver. You believes he could help a peaceful settlement if federal agents allow him to go up to the cabin and talk I'm willing to talk to him in terms that I think he will understand there's more over him to live for then there is for him to end up sacrificing his family four on the top of the hill. By then federal agents were getting desperate. Why not let griots try to talk some sense into Randy Weaver. No one else could Glenn let gripes through the roadblock assured him up to the cabin and gave him a megaphone greats identified himself, and then Mandy responded. I've been shot Mandy yelled from inside the cabin Vicky has been shot through the head and Kevin has been shot through the arm and into the chest. That's the moment. The FBI found out that Vicki Weaver was dead. Greats left the cabin. But he would return several times over the course of the next few days. Meanwhile, the FBI was reeling from the news that Vicky was dead. It was clearly a disaster for the law enforcement there who were trying to do their job. And rather than capturing the target of all their efforts seemingly innocent bystanders were dead that night, gene. Glenn the agent who had announced. Sammy's death five days before reveal the next grim discovery to reporters. Three children. In good health. Brandies in good health. Unfortunately, Vicki is dead. For the crowd at the roadblock. This was a turning point. A lot of anger from these people who have a massive been here really throughout this ordeal. Right now, they're holding a silent prayer vigil. But the this is punctuated by shouts of of anger calls to war and violence. It's really quite a quite a tense moment. Will you? And I became quite fearful that pointed at any time gunshots would would ring out of the bushes at the law enforcement, and we'd be caught in the crossfire thinking back this several days ago when we learned that Samuel lever had been killed. There was probably an hour or two there where we were all probably little worried about what happened with some of these people. This will be attention on the road block. Greats traveled back and forth between the cabin and the roadblock. Trying to keep things. Calm. He presented himself as a stalwart ally. To the protesters one day John Allison was turning the dial on his radio scanner when he realized he was listening to a conversation between Bogue rights and the Weaver family inside the cabin. The only way the scanner would have picked it up. Alison realized WAS FG rights was wearing a wire. All of these protesters down below believe that vogue rights was their hero. And he was there to save the day and figure out a way to make the feds. Maybe go away. I don't know. Now, I know that Bogue rights is essentially a double agent and he's wearing body wire. If I'm listening to it over a scanner, obviously, the FBI is as well. On several trips to the cabin rights. Brought Jack mclamb a retired cop who had become his right hand, man. Eight days into the standoff. He also brought along Jackie Brown, the Weaver's neighbor, and friend. He was hoping the Weaver girls would trust her Jaggi had been at the roadblock from the start sometimes spending the night at a nearby camp meant now, she was going behind police lines. They walked past the meadow filled with humvees and helicopters. So many agents were on the scene that the Red Cross had to bring the meals. It looks like a military war zone. It reminded me of things. You would see on the news about staging areas in Iran or Iraq. Somewhere. The only difference was it was a green meadow. Getting chills surrounded by big pine trees, the FBI offer. Jackie a bulletproof vest before. She approached the cabin. She jokes that she take one if she could wear it backwards. No one from the cabinet fired. Any shots. I was in fear for my life. Yes. I was in fear for my life from every agent. They're not one member of the family and that was in that cabin. Agents had told Jackie and Bogue rights to speak to Randy in the family from outside the cabin. But it was hard to have a real conversation that way the family was still afraid that they'd get shot if they made themselves visible, so they lay or crouched below a small window keeping their bodies out of sight. So I just simply asked can I come in at that point. Nobody had been in the cabin. And Randy said, I could as long as I came alone and run around the back. So that's what I did. She could see agents in the brush in camouflage and face paint, holding automatic weapons as she approached the doorway she thought about how a sniper had shot and killed her friend. Vicki in that exact spot if the weavers opened the door she wondered with the FBI fire on them again. I had images of. Being used for them to assassinate somebody. I asked them to step away from the door, which they did. And when I entered the cabinet was gloomy and ravaged with fear and pain and. An inability to really understand why they wanted this way speaking of the government. Why would they do this? Angry. Yes. But warned down. I mean scared to death. You know, they were saying the weavers wouldn't give up. Well, it had been proven to the weavers at this point that if you so much peaked out a window you'd probably get a bullet in the brain. So why would they walk out? Inside the cabinet was dark. The family had covered all the windows. Kevin was lying on recliner. And he seemed near death. There were blankets and sleeping bags spread on the floor. The cabin was cluttered in a way that the house proud Vicky never would have tolerated. Her body was wrapped in a blanket in the kitchen. It may sound so simple that it sounds. But I just wanted to hug the girls. I just wanted them to know, they weren't alone. They were loved and that some hell if at all possible, I was going to make sure they were safe. The weavers talked and Jackie listened after a while they gave her the six page letter that they had written days earlier in hopes of getting their story to the public sixteen-year-old. Sarah Weaver, hit it in the sanitary napkin afraid that the government would destroy it. Jackie smuggled, a letter out I placed that in its proper place and walked off the mountain Jackie gave it to Tony who gave it to a reporter bits of it were included in some news coverage, but not much seemed to come of it. The document the family had thought would be so explosive landed with something of a thud. Debt? 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You can choose from a variety of colors and four sizes all of their carry-ons is is can keep your USB powered electron IX at full charge. A single charge of the away carry on can fill up your iphone five times and the bag is both sturdy and light. I honestly didn't realise. How heavy my old carry on was until I started using an away bag. Aways cases, also come with a lifetime warranty. Try it for yourself with their hundred day trial. If at any point, you decide it's not for you. Just return it for a full refund. No questions asked for twenty dollars office suitcase visit away travel dot com slash ridge and use promo code ridge are ide- GE during checkout. That's a way travel dot com slash ridge and promo code ridge for twenty dollars office suitcase. From outside the cabin griots asked if he could remove body not yet Randy said, it was Saturday their Sabbath day, but it was clear that the family was softening the next day Kevin Harris walked outside to surrender the soft moon. We got a glimpse of Kevin Harris being taken from the cabin the first big break in this ten day old siege in the afternoon. Jackie vogue rights and a local pastor return to the Weaver cabin Jackie's concern now was Vicki's body which had been inside the house for a week in the summer heat. It was a health hazard for the children. I mean, this is the kitchen they have to crawl through the kitchen on their hands and knees or belly crawl to avoid windows for fear of being shot to get any kind of food which meant they had to climb crawl through their mothers. Blood and body. So this had the stop. Randy helped the men put the body in a body bag and then Jackie rights carried it outside. Jackie went back out and told Richard Rodgers the head of the hostage rescue team that she needed cleaning supplies, the FBI gave her two large buckets of water and some pristine white bath towels. They even offered even offered to help me carry it up there. Which of course, I'm not stupid. I carried it up myself. Back in the cabin. Jackie started to clean. It was almost like an out of body experience. I was more watching myself. Do it. It was very important. Not by the federal Genda. So you didn't show motion didn't cry. You didn't I out didn't get angry. What was going on inside was whole different ballgame. It's you know, you just go on. What can you do the one? But ran the and the girls were still in the cabin, and they wouldn't leave greats. Jack mclamb went back. The next day. It was make or break time if negotiations failed they had a plan to forcibly subdue the family mclamb would hold the older, girls and writes would grab Randy. And then say the code word Alaska into his small transmitter to summon the FBI they hoped it wouldn't come to that. Great spot a note, urging Randy to surrender signed by some local skinheads Randy knew and respected as he approached the cabin. Randy shouted at him to stop the family had been praying all night Randy said, and y'all way had told them to stay in place. They would come down in nine days time on September ninth. The feast of trumpets it was the same holiday that Vickie had set as y'all ways deadline for finding property in Idaho. Griots told him the feds were not gonna wait that long. He slid the letter from the skinheads through a crack in the door. A little afternoon. Randy surviving children walked out of the cabin together. With Randy holding the baby in his good arm or crisis in Idaho is over an armed white supremacist late today, surrendered ending a violent standoff with police. Randy Weaver is three children in the man. The government will luckily accepted as its negotiator walked out of a mountaintop cabin late this afternoon hand in hand was triumphant go to God. Go to God almighty shows you the power where so I leave is mission accomplished because there's no more harm done. The FBI put Randy on a helicopter to Sandpoint, Idaho. His daughters went with Vicki's parents to a nearby motel. Mike Johnson the US Marshall for the state was on the helicopter with Randy in Sandpoint. They would board a jet for Boise within hours. Randy would be standing in a federal courtroom Johnson had been trying to bring Randy in for more than a year. They said Randy. I'd like to ask you some questions, and I used first name to try to get the dialogue going. He knew who. I was. She said, no, I don't wanna say anything and couple seconds later. He said, well, what do you want to ask? Johnson wanted to know one thing I said did you ever come off the mountain if Randy had come off the mountain after his brief arrest and release on bail in early nineteen ninety one that would mean Johnson had missed his chance to arrest in peacefully and avoid this whole thing. And he said, no he never came off the mountain from the day. He went back there after court. He had never come off the mountain and that. Pretty much was what we thought. But I guess in the back of my mind, I wanted to know that that too because of how much effort was spent tried to to get them. After eleven days the standoff at Ruby Ridge was over a few weeks later about fifty activists, including Tony and Jackie Brown gathered at a local restaurant to found a so called patriot group called United citizens for Justice other groups began to form and other states strategizing about how to resist federal violence and defend white families. The weavers were lionized on talk radio in wing, newsletters. And in the official magazine of the NRA in New York. A young Gulf war veteran named Timothy McVeigh had been following the standoff closely afterward, he couldn't stop thinking about it. Next time on standoff an investigation a trial and the long afterlife of Ruby Ridge. He looks at us any just immediately breaks into tears, and he says killed my son the killed my wife, and I wasn't any reason for view ought to give your federal agents that leeway to just say when they kill American citizens that things. Just adjust went wrong standoff. What happened at Ruby Ridge is brought to you by slate plus slates membership program slate plus members get a bonus episode of the show every week with in-depth interviews going further into the characters and themes this week excerpts from my interview with Greg sprung goal, an Idaho sheriff who was on the scene of the standoff and helped investigate it afterward to hear that at the sewed and help support the show. Sign up at slate dot com slash standoff standoff is produced by me and Nina earnest with production help from Andrew Parsons slates. Aditorial director for audio is Gabriel. Off. Thanks this week to Chow to and Jess Walter.

Randy Weaver FBI Vicki Weaver Vicky Jean Weaver Kevin Harris reporter Sammy Jackie Jackie Brown US gene Glenn Weaver Weaver house John Allison Ruby Ridge Tony Idaho Vietnam
Finding Fugitives with U.S. Marshal Art Roderick

PD Stories

53:48 min | 11 months ago

Finding Fugitives with U.S. Marshal Art Roderick

"This episode will include sensitive content. Please visit the show notes for more details and listen at your own discretion welcome the PD stories. I'm your host Tom. Morris junior prime reporter in Washington. DC Special Police officer and today. I'm very excited to have someone someone who I've known for many many years in the studio with me aren't Roderick former. US Marshall with twenty five years of service. The minute I got into law enforcement I said I wanNA find people that. Don't be fooled. So it's like an adult game. Hide and seek art has been at the forefront of several pivotal moments in American prime history capturing seven of the fifteen most wanted fugitives in America America to helping restore nationals ability in Baghdad to his central role in the famous Ruby Ridge. Standoff all you hear is rounds going. They're shooting everything at us. Any movement at at home they would just shooting for the sake of shooting into the woods. Those trees were riddled all of which we'll dig into in great detail today. We're lucky to have you here. Art Thank you for joining us on. PD Stories No. Thanks Tom. I appreciate it so good to see you again as always I started with America's most wanted in the spring of nineteen ninety three and I met you shortly after that We were always doing cases fused with the marshalls. And that's how we met. I remember actually being being my I am w Christmas party were there. Oh Yeah. Those are all great parties great parties. Weren't they another meeting at a party. I am W parties ladies. Yeah Yeah I started with America's most wanted when it first started myself. I don't know if you remember bobby less horn. Yeah that was my boss at the time and and we would basically come over every single week and kind of pick up. Whatever couldn't be picked up by a local PD or something and beyond the hotline tips that came in and especially if if there was a good one coming in and God we I did so many shows over there through the years. And that's where we met. I mean America's most wanted was ground absolutely groundbreaking At the time. And now you see a lot of these You know crowdsourcing shows out there that that was spawned out of that particular program and we're continuing that work without wanted segments and missing children's admits online PD. So it's a it's a great legacy that continues news on to this day. I get to ask you some questions today. That never asked you and all the I've known you start at the very beginning which is why did you end up in law enforcement Maha. Did you choose this as a career. Well I think like many young kids going up. You Look at what your dad did. And my father was a was a police officer up in Massachusetts -Chusetts for small PD province Police Department for a few years and then became a deputy sheriff in barnstable county but sort of how things circle around. Eventually he enlisted in in the army right after Pearl Harbor and he enlisted in the army and they sent him out to the Pacific Theater and He fought there for the remainder of World War Two and then he was stationed in Japan during the occupation. And he was over there he was one of the First Army criminal investigators and He had actually been stationed over in Japan to help the Japanese figure out how to do civil policing leasing. so He'd spent many years over there right up until He probably spent ten twelve years over there doing that Before he came back to the states l.. You went into the military. I right exactly and tell me about that path from the military into becoming a law enforcement officer for yourself. Yeah I enlisted in one thousand nine hundred seventy seven during the so-called volunteer military after Vietnam and I was stationed at Fort Dix. I took the test. They said. Hey you can be an MP and of course a light bulb went on you know. My father was an MP. So I said yes. I'll sign up to be an MP. So I spent about a year after I got out of basic training and advanced training to to go to Fort Dix New Jersey and then after a year they shipped me up to fort. Richardson Alaska where. I spent two years up there about six months sitting in a tower guarding nuclear missile site which was quite interesting wrestling Talk about loneliness like Oh God. Twenty four hours on two days off and it was. It was horrible in the winter. Let me tell you we used to have the follow. These huge snowblowers up the side of this mountain to get up to the top of it because of the ten feet of snow up there. It was crazy. That's a unforgiving terrain up there in Alaska. I it's I mean you think it gets cold down here I mean we'd be out on the Tundra would be it'd it'd be like thirty below and that always tell you out there. Hey Be careful when you go out to the bathroom. Obviously it's frigging cold. Don't touch anything. Not because you literally lose our fingers now once you've got out of the military when did you transition into I'm going to be US marshal. Well I I You know back before you get out you have before you get out of the military. They always try to keep you in right. I had already started applying for the FBI in the US. Marshals knowing I was getting out In nineteen eighty and so they kind of given up on me But then Reagan got elected Ronald Reagan. President Reagan got elected and he put a hiring freeze on for like three years for all federal jobs. So I had to do something so I got out of the army and like March of nineteen eighty and I applied to be a police officer on Cape Cod and I got accepted At the Brewster Police Department in Brewster Massachusetts Bruce Police Department excellent not as not as assessment. Oh no I've been there. Yeah and it's as you know it's a very small police department department is hey. It was very well equipped you know like most towns up there then pretty wealthy and they took care of the law enforcement officers at work for them on their Bruce Brewster brewster now when did you join the US marshals. I joined in Nineteen eighty-three from the police department and I had a great chief So when I came to him and said hey the US marshals have asked me to to come to their training Academy Academy. He goes do it he does one do they want you. It was a Friday. I said they want me in Boston on Monday. Because do it. Don't pass it up and so that that that Monday. I swore in it through the Boston office in like two weeks later I was down at the Training Academy in Georgia flags. Yup Pinko He was Mars. The premier men hunters on the planet. Were I'm concerned. They are always save. You Muturi Monroe when I'm wrong at the FBI every single time. Explain to people listening. Who really don't know what the US Marshall Service is and does its primary mission right and that's a question we get all the time and because usually they think I'm sitting on an aircraft somewhere flying around Tommy Lee Jones and it's not but we're not the air marshal the air marshals are under Homeland Security the US marshalls are the oldest? I federal law enforcement agency in the United States They were they were established in seventeen eighty nine along with the federal judiciary additionally so we supported the federal courts at that time but the first thirteen. US marshals were appointed by George Washington for each of the thirteen states. Fatten in her point in time. So we have this very broad authority and none of the other. Federal law enforcement agencies were established at that time. I think the next one that came up was customs. But customs was more of a Collecting Money Titan Agency if they had any enforcement issues they would come to the marshalls for that. In fact the first. US Marshal was killed. I believe in seventeen ninety eight John Foresight for executing a warrant on a customs this case And he got shot going up the steps of Asia of a house in fact the valor award that the marshalls give out is named after foresight. Wow that's a that's an illustrious history I mean most people idea that the marshalls go back to the seventeen hundred. Yeah it's it's And then you they. I always think of the marshals from the old West which is fine that too. There's a lot of history there in now you look at some of the Actors that have portrayed. US Marshals Clint. Clint Eastwood John Wayne. No there's a long list of James Aren't Nessin. I'm there's a long list of actors. Actually actresses have portrayed. Kate Beckons Tale. Portrayed a marshal in In one of her one of her recent movies so it's basically mirrors the history of this country There's here's one Black US Marshall from way back in the day fast reeves roofs. Who tells a little bit about him so legendary Martial Marshall Yeah he is Bass Reeves probably put the Marshall Service on the map back back in his day? He was a frontier Marshal and African American. Yes African American Arken Frontier Martial And he had he was one of these guys. You just didn't mess with if you remember John Wayne from True Grit that's bass raise right one hundred percent bass reeves nobody messed with Bass Reeves and and and this eighteen eighteen. What I would I think it was during the probably eighteen seventies eighties. Yeah somewhere in there back when we were still moving westward and you know as we moved westward word in territories became states The first thing they did is establish Federal Courthouse which meant the marshals came in because the marshals worked hand in hand with A. You know we know. We've all heard historically about judge Roy. Being Yeah Staffy gun-toting judge the gun toting judge. We had he had a staff of of US marshals that would go out west in and arrest fugitives Attempt to arrest them. You know wanted dead or alive or whatever it was back then on horseback on horseback and bring them in and and So there's a lot of lot of history back in the eighteen hundreds especially in the old west days now the US marshalls are the premier ear. You'd have hunters in law enforcement in America. I think there's no question about that. Tell us a little bit about what it takes to become proficient officiant at hunting fugitives What what is it that makes the marshalls so adept at this? I think I think one of the main things is. You don't don't have to do that. Job This several jobs you can do as a US marshal whether it's judicial protection personal protection Court security asset forfeiture witnessed security. So there's multiple jobs that you can do which is good? Because you don't want somebody working fugitives. It doesn't WanNa be there there. There's plenty of other jobs to do a lot of other agencies. Don't have that type of flexibility but we in the Marshall Service do so what happens happens is it draws people that want to do the job to the job which number one to me is is the best the greatest thing we have gone as far as recruitment goes so so you generally get the same type of personality that comes to the job and each one the comes to the job has their little bit of expertise whether they can be a great interviewer they write good reports and they wanna get involved in the technical surveillance side of it and you gravitated by interest toward toward the Yes the minute I got into law enforcement. I said I wanNA find people that don't want to be found. So it's like an adult game of hide and seek a serious adult. Oh game of hide and seek but it is it is a challenge and I think what's what's cool about it is. There's a beginning a middle in the end. Okay a lot of cases. When you're an investigator I it could take? There might not be any end. You could investigate somebody for years and never come across enough evidence to bring in case for it so I think that's what's great about our law enforcement system here. It's a series of checks and balances so generally the the agency that's brought brought. The case is not the one looking for the fugitive correct and I think that to us is is a great check and balance on that we have here in in the government. Now now you helped arrest seven of the fifteen most wanted on the US marshals most wanted list of those seven What is the one you're most proud of and was the most challenging I guess I would say probably Allie boy PERSICO. Allie boy PERSICO was was the underboss of the Colombo. Crime family has his his full name. Was Alphonse Combine PERSICO. His brother was carmine. PERSICO the snake and ran the Colombo crime family at the time and his brother did a took a a Sort of a hit for the family and he was arrested for extortion. So so He failed to appear but eventually we ended up looking at it because the bureau. FBI kept saying. Oh He's dead. He's dead This is seven years. They've got alloy thought. Allie boy was dead end. The mob has a way of doing that You know anybody that we're looking for this A mob member over on you know they always put out the word you know. He's dead We had heard he had been involved in a boating accident. We heard you've been involved a car accident so I spent. I can't I can't tell you. How many hours looking at every coastguard station from Rhode Island down to New York looking at their accident files Trying to find this boating accident so we were getting a little bit of information from different parts of the country so we found out he was using an alias name that ended in a vowel right. Shocker and he said Okay 's name ended in a vowel. We have kind of a span of a timeframe above what age he could be So I went to the Department of Motor Vehicles Nichols at the time and in which day. Okay Okay and I spent about three weeks there and I had them program you know. We're talking nineteen eighty-seven Ada. Hey time for air computer records. Ely's user candidate is yeah. It took them weeks to get the parameters that I needed To home down on all everybody. That had a issued driver's license in this period of time was this age. Was this height this way. They must have been tired of you eventually. got a list of one hundred and fifty people people both his. Aliases on that list. Perry P. E. R.. I in Longo Elo NGO. How how did you figure that out? Well Melt He. Was He taking your driver's test and you have to use somebody's vehicles. We're able to find out who owned the vehicle and we said Oh my gosh I know that name. That's the mob-connected name so when he took his driver's test yeah he was driving a mobsters car. Yes and you were able to able to connect the dots back to him. That's that's amazing and then once we did that we came up with this list of names Now we had. I don't know if you remember Frank. Bender remember all the forensic artists from New Frank Franken very strange personality. It was. He was the usual man. Brian forensic artists and frank was usually spot on he was spot on to an age enhanced. Bust of someone twenty years later and they caught him. It would look exactly like what he had envisioned absolutely amazing. I mean I think he's. He's better than some of the software. Are we see out there. Now that some people are using so we had him do a bust of our fugitive PERSICO and he had taken probably one hundred and fifty different photographs of it black black and white collar mustache. No facial hair sunglasses gray hair dark hair. You know the whole gamut so I carried around this this notebook with a hundred and fifty of these different pictures in there. What this guy might of what the guy might look like based on Frank's sculptor in finally one day? You know we. We got these broad subpoenas to get records and stuff but we never mentioned his name. And I remember taking this notebook to this apartment in West. Hartford I went to the manager and I said. Do you recognize this guy she goes. Oh yeah that's a long ago. He's down three and I lost my my stuff right there. I was like now. Are you one hundred percent. Sure she's like Oh. Yeah that's definitely him looking at the sculptors She goes in fact act. He's got gray hair. This one looks more like the Knicks won and So I I said Gimme a little bit of history and if you got records give me the records. Oh thanks started falling into to place right away so I get on the phone. I call the the The supervisor of the Task Force who happened to be up in Hartford at the time out the New York City Vehicle Boesky and I go. Hey I think we got him. This manager is telling me he's in the apartment right now come on role everybody out well as all things go. We had a flat flat tire and one of the cars to the team members. were getting the tire change. I had to wait like an hour an apartment and I'm losing my mind and you've got out for years seven W. supposedly dead. Finally they showed up. We go knocking on the door and He opened the door and he started shaking. Shake it because he thought we were there to hit them Just trust your included. plain-clothes old is he at this point he's in his probably late sixty as some. He had a heart issue he had open heart surgery up in Springfield Massachusetts. They pay cash for it and he was you could tell he was a bit sickly. I mean he was still recovering. Someone very thin gone looking but we sat him down on the chair told them to relax had kind of an odd shape. He was very thin up here. Everybody had this big old pot belly and very skinny on the legs and I remember sitting them down. He was up at the stove making red sauce. Spaghetti sauce straight out of getting Velez unbelievably had a newspaper next to him. And it had a racing form right and there was a horse named Allie boy. What in the race? That's in one of the races. Yeah Yeah Wow so. We arrested him and of course it hit the press. At that time I remember big news up there uh but that that was probably the biggest one because of the work and effort and and stuff that we had to do to get to that point where we actually came came up with the two names. Now you ran the domestic and international fugitive program for the marshalls for some years briefly. Tell me a little bit about that. Work I ended. I'm doing quite a bit of work. Starting off in in Jamaica in the late eighties. You know we had the shower posse or that type. I worked on shower Rossi cases. Yeah it's our posse Elsie. For those who don't know was a Jamaican drug gang that starting to make a gravitate towards southern Southern Florida Miami. They even came as far up as D. C. exactly and They got their nickname because they would literally shower. People with bullets. Lay was just unload a hundred round drum into one guy's body and think ain't nothing of it. That's what they did so anyway they were. They were probably one of the most violent cruise around and they they were politically connected. But I always remember this one in Jamaica Richard Morrison and he was wanted for bank robbery or or narcotics or something and we got a lead on him. down in Jamaica. So I go down to Jamaica. I got two other marshals with me and I'm pretty sure we got a really good lead on the guy we go to a bar that night which which is raped by our hotel by the embassy we walk into the bar. I have a female Marshall with me and a male Marshall winning and who standing at the bar with the same damn shirt that we have in the wanted poster his fugitive standing there at the bar in the same frigging shirt that we have him in the wanted posters row very unique multicolored striped shirt. And he's got on right there at the bar I'm going I can't believe this. Nobody's ever going to believe this so we. I grabbed the Female deputy ago. Hey we just got married. Weren't honeymoon down here and we bellied up next to him at the bar. We get getting a conversation with him. He ends up buying a bottle of champagne for our honeymoon. Get out no and we're talking to this guy for about a half hour forty five minutes. And then he kind of his his his own policy As entourage grabs him and they leave in like three or four cars and he drives off. So we're able to ide- where he goes goes So the next day they ended up arresting them and then the riot started two days later they ended up arresting Lester Coke based on the information. dudas that right dude. It's coke that we big Jamaica big so the riot start we immediately get a phone call from the ambassador. Get on the plane and get out of here. There's all kinds of threats they know who you guys are. You got to leave like now and they had like three or four days worth of riots down there at the prison because these two guys were being held and in the neighborhoods because the people thought it was Robin Hood. He was his drug lord who right like a lot of drug lords did stuff for the community but he was still a ruthless drug. Lord very politically connected and politically politically connected right. Yeah right so we got out of there as soon as we could. You also ended up in Baghdad. Yes what did you do in Iraq I was I was is in Iraq and in two thousand four and that was another request from At that time the DOD was still in charge it had been turned over to the State Department and yet and Dod had asked us to come over and provide assistance to the Iraqi police the show the motto out a new civilian type policing policing but the case more into then it morphed into okay we need your help to arrest some of these war criminals the Decca cards They are looking for and then once him ago Ali in the whole group you know and then once a Lotta those were put in custody than we shifted all our people. At one time we had sixteen ecksteen marshals over there and they were involved I wouldn't say daily. But they were involved in quite a few firefights with the military and once Saddam ended up getting arrested mm-hmm they had asked us The had asked us to take over security for the trial and set up the facility that was going to put Saddam on trial. So we we ended up doing that and At that point you know it became a question of nation building which we know has been successful in in some places but the majority of places no And I ended up doing the same exact thing in two thousand six in Kabul in in Afghanistan. I think it was more successful in Baghdad than it's been in Kabul And I think that's an issue of infrastructure literacy and all that stuff altogether complicated issue but he guys. We're GONNA take a short pause so I can tell you about a sponsor that supports our show. Now I've got a cat named Ali and she's about seventeen years sold and I love alley. She's a Bradley intelligent cat and she also is very very particular about her cat litter and her box. Her habits are etched in stone after seventeen years but the thing. I don't love about alley. My cat is the cat litter but I recently checked out pretty litter and I'm hooked. Make the switch to pretty litter today EH visiting pretty litter dot com and use Promo Code. PD for twenty percent off your first order it actually conceals odors and moisture and the best part about it is that I get this lightweight bag delivered right to my door and it lasts me a whole month. Also a crazy thing I learned. Is that pretty. Litter says even changes colors to detect if your cat has an underlying illness now that's pretty cool. Do what I did and make the switch to pretty litter today visiting pretty litter dot com and use Promo Code. PD for twenty percent off your first order. That's pretty litter DOT COM Promo Code. PD for twenty percent off pretty litter dot com Promo code PD. Welcome back. We returned now with Guest Art Roderick to talk about the famous Ruby Ridge standoff to set the scene Ruby Ridge was an eleven day seved began when a team of US marshals including art directed by the ATF the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco firearms and explosives to surveilled. Avail the home of Randy Weaver. who was selling illegal sawed off shotguns? The operation ended in a full shootout and it sparked a national and controversial debate. The law enforcement's use of force and civilians right to carry guns. Let's hear what actually happened from a man who lived through it now you were involved in a pivotal incident in law enforcement in this country. The Ruby Ridge incident that was nineteen. ninety-two I believe Man Name Randy Weaver Yeah. Unfortunately there's been a lot of Movies you know. TV media done about this. Some books have been written unfortunately none of them really come out with really what happened and and what started Ruby Ridge It was. It's a long process very complicated case that involved three three federal law enforcement agencies but initially it was an ATF case a gun case Gun case and where he he was selling sawed off shotguns to an undercover from ATF. Now people have argued. Oh that's a pretty weak case determination right. That's not my job to make that determination. Weaver in his family participated in the area nation. Church which was up in that area and they were trying to get them to flip on the area nation. Back under Reverend Butler Idaho Idaho. Yeah they had their main church up there And he would go to that church whether you want to call column white supremacy or white separatist. I guess it's semantics because one is part of the other but he was A white supremacist. A white white separatist and They always thought that there was some weird government conspiracy going on. They believed that the that the race war was coming coming you know. And they had to stock up on weapons ammunition. All these offers read in the woods for this Ainley off the grid. uh-huh actually lived on top of mountain. It was completely off the grid. No water no electricity. He had to pipe water in from a local creek. Ruby Creek Creek So they didn't have very many amenities up there but the case itself Fell into in my lap in January of Nineteen Ninety two. I was working at headquarters. I was running the fugitive unit for the Marshall Service on a national basis at that point in Washington. DC IN WASHINGTON DC. So sort of all the task. Force's all the major cases all the fifteen most wanted stuff was worked out a headquarters at that time. So so this case kind of dropped in our lap after the local district did a ton of work on it. We're getting all these strange letters that his wife had had written to the Marshal's office in Idaho saying what talking about the horror of Babylon all biblical all these old Testament Biblical revelation. Type stuff about You know the the race wars coming. The Jews were taken over the world. You you know we should all about your show of Messiah. When so we randy weaver's wife is sending these bizarre letters to law enforcement in response to do our letters to try to negotiate some type of Sorrento guy and it didn't work it just didn't work in it and the federal judge up there was pressuring us to do something because there was some incidences is there were occurring up there where he was stealing some stuff from the neighbors? and Um which was all part of this weird luminosity thing and it got to the point where he left if the Arian Church because they weren't radical enough for him he ends up going to court he he bonds out and then he failed to show for court date now. There was a mixup in the court date but still he failed to show for both court dates. So you know the case was spiraling in it. It was during an election year which you know nineteen ninety-two politics says it into electric presidential election year and we had the Department of Justice. Telling US don't don't hurt those kids. Don't do anything that could possibly put those children in harm's way and of course we always look at sure but as the family it's a family of four it it was a family a husband wife Randy Weaver and his wife son son and two daughters in an infant baby. Okay Infant female child but they he also had a friend up there who a twenty four year old male who stayed with them. The kind of looked up to randy and believed in the same stuff that weaver that the weaver family believed in. We knew this was going to be a tough one. I probably climbed that mountain for four months and I'm talking about a mountain in the middle of nowhere. Doing surveillance doing surveillance I mean. I literally had one night climbed up and crawled up underneath the house. It was just sitting there listening to them really in the middle of the night. Yeah it was about two three o'clock in the morning. We did some really heavy duty constant surveillance on them both visually and with the cameras that we had Saddam back up a minute you crawled slithered underneath Randy Weaver's house well. The house sat on the side of the house sat on the side of a mountain. Mount Nano trail like a mile up Through thick woods at night at night we had night vision and We were able to get up pretty close to the house to make a determination to exactly what they had. You know 'cause you're adrenaline pumping kiss because you knew if they saw you know no they weren't going to see us. I think The dogs though the dog's never alerted on us or anything. The dog it was kind of odd. The dogs alerted on sound more than smell. And because you had a lot of wild animals running around up there I mean it was literally in the middle of nowhere. We had no radio. We only have radio contact Jack between us. We actually at one point drilled in from the main road a five mile. Long telephone line to the neighbor's cabin down at the base of the mountain just so he had some type of communication back to the sheriff's Office. So it was. That's how remote this place was. Set up cameras. We had the hall batteries up. The side of a mountain to trickle charge the solar panels that were Charging the cameras and this is nineteen ninety two so This was pretty high end stuff at that point. In in time monitoring his activities movements around the woods round his compound right and always armed Thirteen year old kids Sam. Weaver had a revolver sidearm and always always carrying a Ruger mini fourteen. Thirteen year old. Thirteen year old right and the daughter was always armed. And of course Kevin Harris was armed. Randy Weaver was armed. The wife was armed. They were always armed which is not against the law but this is a totally unique unique situation right here. A whole family of armed people yes from the children up to the parents. So when did things come to a head and how I it we left like in early June. We just shut everything down. Came back for the summer and then Probably probably around August we were told. Okay go get him And that's what that's what we did. It was our first week back there. I I basically had out of the six of us. Four were brand new. People never been up there before I had two of my good friends with me from the Special Operations Group Larry Recoup and William Degan Were with me representing sort of the tactical side of stuff because what we were planning to do by a piece of land next to Randy Weaver Lever and basically we were looking for locations where we could put surveillance teams the cover our undercover deputy when he made contact with the weavers We had got up to the Little Ski Chalet that we had rented and you know they were six of us there. We are getting ready to go out that morning early morning. I think we got up there probably around two a m And I started showing them everything we split up into two three person teams and I sent the other guy that was with with me before deputy Dave Hunt took two of the guys are medic and one of our technical surveillance guys up to northern observation post about a mile from where the the shooting initiated And so then I took the other two guys up. We kind of we're looking around Weavers property rating rate around around there to find different locations where we would be able to put surveillance teams the daylight or now it's still dark still dark okay. around nine o'clock in the morning and we said let's let's get Outta here time for us to go and as we were leaving the area a vehicle came into the valley now this is mountainous area and the the sounds of their very bizarre. I mean stuff would echo off the mountains and it sounded like that car was coming right up the driveway into weavers property. That's how loud it was You know I don't know if it was because of the time of the morning low cloud cover whatever it was that vehicle we heard it loud And it's like you know I'm calling northern observation point. Is there anybody driving up the road here because we're getting ready to get out of here and boom. That's when the dog came running out the house. They all came running out of the house. I saw them. They looked right at me. And we jumped up and started hauling but south south to our kind of our rally point which ended up being called the Y.? Area as it was an area where the main driveway come up until the right was the driveway to their house to the left left kind of went up into the area. Call the firm field kind of just went up the side of the mountain and So we got up. We started running and and Cooper had a silenced nine millimeter submachine gun on them. I kept telling him. Take the dog out. Take the dog out. It's leading them to us and the dog was right on our ass. We can hear it barking and we're moving. We ran about a quarter of when they're coming after you. They're coming after US but what we didn't know is they split up where weaver went down the other the his driveway And two of them. The kid in Harris followed the dog behind us. Okay so we get to the FERN field it we cut down and I'm thinking we're GonNa get away we know we're going to break this and we got to the point. Where the Billy Deegan? who was the real guy? Cooper was in the middle. I'm in the front leading them out of the area. We get to the Y.. Area and at that point Kevin Harris. Now I'm looking back and this area is. I mean the foliage if you put your strengths. Unbelievably Thick August best in the mountains in an area than isn't traversed very much so he sees weaver coming this way we've received him. Degan starts yelling freeze. US marshals I turn around. I SEE WEAVERS BUD end heading up the trail and I'm yelling at him. Freeze Randy freeze freeze US marshals US marshals role yelling US marshals than this pointing at that particular point. Kevin Harris the kid in the dog are coming down the other way and they hear US marshals US marshals US marshals. Okay and at that point Harris just wheels around and fires at you at your at our guys. In the hits Billy Degan here billy was behind a tree stump but he came up to announce and to to to US Marshal Stop freeze and it caught him right here just above the heart and it went through and we all have backpacks on hit a canteen holder metal canteen holder in his backpack in his backpack in sort of came back in Put shrapnel from that into into him and it was basically you know. They told me later that even if he was shot in the emergency room he he you wouldn't have survived But he as he was going down he fired seven rounds And when the first round went off as as an every shooting shooting of investigative or talk to law enforcement about sort of everything froze for a second. You know it's like Oh man. The first round went off run In that interim cooper fired six rounds at Harris thought he hit Harris because Harris went down and he fired six rounds but he's got a silenced. What's submachine gun So very hard to hear in that area you know anything but prior that happening the dog was actually weaver up the other trail. The dog turned and looked at me. I fired one round from Miami. Four is I was moving. It hit the dog. The dog goes was down and I peel off into the woods Now there somewhere up in front of me. I have no idea where they are. You can't see anything. All you hear is rounds going on. They're shooting everything at us. The shooting went on for twenty twenty five minutes. Let Yeah they shot at us for twenty any movement at all. They would just shooting for the sake of shooting into the woods to leave. Because you really couldn't see anything And so while billy was down he fired seven rounds and I think at that point in time. Am I back out on the trail. Cooper aradio says Billy's been it get up here and so I think they're out on the trail. I dive back out into the open and get shot. A bullet hits me here in the chest passes through my shirt leaves a big black Greece mark on my a t shirt and goes out the side. Hits the Berman. We were never able to find that round but it was clearly pretty much protests. Yes yeah I was laying down in. The bullet came from the site and went. Never touch my skin but pierced a hole in my tunic. Put a big black reese mark on my You had gone on right no no. We didn't have any no no okay. Now vests first of all there's a surveillance operation on What We knew the weaponry they had. And none of the vessels at that point in time would stop high-powered. Rife right. I mean we would have. We would have been in one of those e Od suits those buys Russell size right and it just wasn't set for that type of operation so None of us had vessel so now billy's down and fighting for his life at that point yeah And you guys tried to try to save his life. I guess we yeah. We're trying to find cover number one and I call up until the the guys up north to come down to our position. It's going to take a while. They were mile a mile away and I think the whole way down. They were shooting at us. And at that point I was able able to after I had been hit I literally levitated enrolled into the woods and I got behind the stand a little poplar trees about eight or nine little thin ones about that. You know three or four inches in diameter not the Ideal Cup not the ideal cover but it was the best ahead at that point in time and those trees were riddled with bullets. All Its shotgun rounds. Hang on just throwing everything every habit. So the shooting eventually stops and this ends up standoff now right right the shooting this was. It's nine thirty in the morning when the shooting happened. Cooper found this little hole in the ground Pretty good cover and I got up there with him And then when the other guys came down we could not get to. Billy's body and Cooper I think had already checked just turns. Billy's gone and by the time the other team came down they were able to. We were able to get his body into the whole with us. Okay at at that point they're still shooting at US and and You L. Billy's gone. He's he's daddy slaying in between us and I said to is down the mountain to the telephone down the hair to get back up and you got a call back to Washington got a call back. We're GONNA headquarters. They hate things have gone. Things have gone south here exactly and that's exactly what happened. It took awhile and of course we're still always concerned there's people coming up behind us Because of that car that came into the Denver who who it was and we kept going. They're coming up behind us they. We know we're here and you'll still on this whole we're still in this whole and the other two guys go down I said told everybody. Shut the radio off. We had to conserve battery artery function. So I had a radio going the could radio the guys in the cabin relay the information back to Washington. DC by phone and then in that that period of time now the troop showed up Now it was nine thirty in the morning we they ordered me off several times and I said I'm not leaving Billy's body up here. We tried to carry them out several times. He was six three but complete muscle and He was very heavy. And of course we're distressed and the terrain is the terrain horrible horrible terrain. And there was no way the three of us are going to be able to carry them out And so we sat up there here from nine thirty in the morning 'til one thirty the next morning when finally the Idaho State police. So I give Great Kudos to the Idaho State Police Search Chen Rescue Came up and were able to get us down with billy's body. What was the next phase of this standoff? This incident well you you know the minute you're involved in a shooting and there's a situation where you're not immediately out of there I knew immediately we we were going to be completely removed and we were As we should be We immediately went to the hospital. We had checkups done You know all usual the things that happened to you. physiologically happen to us. You know emotional auditory exclusion. You know the whole thing Emotional trauma which hadn't hadn't quite set in yet it was just more or less shock And then the case basically at that point in time was turned over the FBI closes probably about four over four one hundred Law Enforcement People showed up in that period of time. I remember coming down the mountain going. Oh my God what the heck they set up a little town at the base of the mountain and that's when it became national news became a huge store in the standoff with the FBI and all these law enforcement people we were family. I think in the end weaver's wife was shot and killed the next day the next day was the final outcome of this whole incident. There was an eleven day. Standoff the the final outcome was the district of Idaho federally charged them with everything they could. They ended up getting acquitted in the court and and they who Weaver an Harris who were acquitted were acquitted. I we've ever was convicted of the failure to appear what about the murderer. Were Billy digging. They they were acquitted. The defense was able to put forward that we fired. I specifically I fired. I in fact this physical evidence that was done by the local sheriff Arafat there that proves the three or four stories that came forward from weaver and Harris were were basically couldn't be confirmed by the forensics expand. Our statements were so it it they were able to say that because we fired I that E- was in self defense sense of self defense back but that is what the court settled on at the time and that is what they've still determined. Today he was considered by today's standards a domestic dick terrorist of sorts. I guess right He I would say more ultra right-wing potentially but I mean he he he you know He. He was espousing certain things but he didn't act on them He supported a lot of stuff but he never really acted on them so I wouldn't say he was a domestic terrorism per se when he supported a lot of the ultra right-wing stuff that we actually see out there. Now I mean You know all the right wing groups that you can think of supported weaver during this whole thing. I met you in nineteen ninety-three when I started Ed America's most wanted and I remember You know you're still recovering from that incident then I had. PTSD for probably. I'd say four or five years I lost and And I mean lost because you completely consumed with that. I wasn't sleeping and you know the same symptoms symptoms as anybody has in that type of situation in an. Unfortunately it didn't end with just that incident. I think what occurred afterwards was probably worse than the actual actual incident itself. The trial went south. I had to testify before the subcommittee. Nobody would believe anything. Congress in Congress. Right before the Senate a subcommittee on terrorism. I mean we were basically butchered in the press because back then law enforcement could not defend themselves so we couldn't come out and give our outside of the story. We had to wait till the trial which was like a year later in by then you know myth and urban legend became truth and this this was the incident that really accelerated the rise of the American militia movement. Right it was one of the militias stars to spring up all of the country because because they thought that the government was coming to take your guns look what happened weaver and his family and his wife and his dog and so this was a really pivotal moment in pivotal moment. Women in American law enforcement history. It was and it's constantly referenced. Now you're one of the experts who's helped develop active shooter protocols and you've been on CNN more than fifty times probably talking about the aftermath of these shootings. What is your perspective art on where we are in this country right now with mass shooters this just briefly. GimMe what your take on. The whole thing is yeah. I I wouldn't say I was there at the very forefront as far as established you help the valves the protocol protocal yes and I looked at some of the protocols and you know we had many comments on it based on not only expertise with Marshall Service but also with Homeland Security thirty and You know they've done some great strides since columbine unfortunately I've done about forty to fifty interviews on CNN and other stations nations regarding active shooter scenarios whether it's a school a church or just the general public and and I think one of the things that law enforcement should be very proud of. Is We look at each situation and then adjust the training columbine you contain then bring in the Swat team team and then have them do their thing right which generally involves negotiation before the Swat team goes well what we learned from Columbine is that just gives the bad guys extra time to kill more people And I think a great example of that is the pulse nightclub shooting at the pulse nightclub shooting that individual that shooter had had some basic knowledge of how law enforcement response I think he was a security guard and taking a couple of law enforcement courses. So what did he do he the immediate well first of all that was a terrorism attack because he claimed allegiance to isis number one but number two he said he had bombs Okay and immediately immediately what happens. Is You back off when this bombs and you unfortunately get police. Can't rush in. You can't rush not not if there's explosives and I think that's a big big lesson. We learned every one of these learn a lesson So that was a big lesson. We learned from the pulse nightclub shooting. Is that if we have somebody. That claims allegiance to Isis. You gotTA gotTa go in regardless and the SWAT team sat back and this guy was able to kill more people using that tactic like in the bathroom But the other change I've seen from a public perspective is people are a lot more aware of actors shooters and now we're starting to see people fight back and I think that's the key. It's a sad place for human being to go but if you're in in an active shooting situation as the law enforcement you know your first responder training. I've never seen any language like this before. But it says you go in with regardless of what's GonNa Happen to you you can't think of yourself you have to go in as quick as you can tactically sound and you have to neutralize the threat the threat with disregard your own saving and there's probably the only training course I've ever seen that actually has that that language in there but I think what you're seeing now is the run height fight and I think a lot of these cases You know law enforcement will show up very quickly but in a minute to two minute time period if you got a semiautomatic handgun or an ar fifteen. You're going to kill a lot of people. It's a very sad dad I think the other thing we've got to realize is that the numbers. We should have zero tolerance for any of the stuff in churches and schools or anywhere and Harriet and but the numbers probably for gun violence only about three percent of the other shootings that we have in this country. You mean mass shooter gump. Mass shooter conflict But I think for us. It's the assault on the innocence. And I always try to look at these. You know you can break these down as this domestic situation usually if it's a domestic situation nations involved in active shooter this probably three four deaths. If it's psycho out there that just wants to start shooting and killing people. You're going to have a high number and then you have the anomalies like us Vegas just another you know. CNN sent me out there the next day and it was It was AH pretty unbelievable. That is mind boggling. Yeah yeah that he had the wherewithal to planet for so long in practice it and then and then study and we will never know why we'll never know why and he knew what he was doing. I mean you know I. I did connor sniper training for the Marshall Special Operations is group. And if I was going to do that I would have done exactly what he did. Tactically tactically right right. What he didn't realise though was he rented two rooms in the door or between the two rooms closed so he would add to go out into the hallway to get back into the room and he was already discovered by then so half the stuff was in the other room? Well art any closing thoughts on your career. You've had quite an extraordinary one and you're still a contributor on CNN. In Different News shows about law enforcement meant not necessarily on my career but I think for law enforcement in general where we are right now Socially in this country you know I think police officers public affairs officers has really got to keep educating the public. That's why I love your show live. PD because it actually puts the viewer into into the shoes of the officer where they started asking themselves. Oh my gosh what would I do in that particular situation. Law Enforcement Officers disrespected. I think right. Now it's it's a tough situation but grueling heart and recruit while recruiting is always hard. But now it's getting harder. It's getting harder number one is people can't pass the background or they're just not getting the applicants that they want and the pay isn't the greatest on the planet so You know I for my fellow law enforcement officers out their brothers and sisters out there. Just hang in there. Unfortunately we go through these cycles. And I think it's GonNa get better well art roderick. You've dropped some knowledge for the public today on this show on PD stories. Thanks for coming our friend. God bless you. That's going to do it for this edition of PD stories. I'm Tom Morris Junior till next time be safe out there. Thank you for joining us today on. PD stories if you enjoyed today's show. Please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. So you never miss an episode and like us on facebook dot com slash. PD stories for more information. You can also catch me on an eas live not every Friday and Saturday night at nine pm. Eastern PD stories was created and executive produced by a Sioux. Phone with producer Julie mcgruder our editors Steve Elevator Elevator special. Thanks to McKay me. Linh Pizza Cassidy Alicia aac up and the teams at eighty networks and podcast for making this show possible until next time. I'm Tom Morris Jude Nick.

US Randy Weaver marshalls FBI Kevin Harris officer Marshall Service Washington Cooper aradio America Tom Morris L. Billy Baghdad Bass Reeves Massachusetts army
181 - Oklahoma City Bombing

Timesuck with Dan Cummins

2:34:17 hr | 9 months ago

181 - Oklahoma City Bombing

"On April Nineteenth nineteen ninety five at nine. Am A writer moving truck parked at a drop off zone. Situated under the Alfred P Murrah Federal Buildings Daycare Center exploded in downtown Oklahoma City Oklahoma. The blast killed one hundred. Sixty eight people injured more than five hundred others and destroyed one third of the giant government building. The blast also destroyed or damaged three hundred and twenty four other buildings within sixteen block radius. It shattered glass. In nearby buildings destroyed or burned eighty-six cars caused an estimated six hundred and fifty two million dollars worth of total damage until the September eleven. Two thousand one attacks over six years later the Oklahoma City bombing will be the deadliest terrorist attack in the history of the United States and it remains the deadliest incident of domestic terrorism. Ever committed on. Us soil so who did it? And why did they do? That is what we deep dive into today in another. How do people develop such delusional horrific beliefs edition of time suck? This is Michael. And you're listening to Sean listening happy. Monday meets axe. Marx's already here how did that happen? It's almost like time continues to move forward at a consistent measurable rate weird. I'm becoming a Master. Sucker bojangles pooper-scooper Dr Sucker. Luke Suck Locker and you are listening to time. Suck Hail Nimrod like what you're wearing today lose. Fina is that leather praise bojangles in glory. Be to recent birthday boy. Michael Motherfucker McDonald Aka triple recording to suck dungeon in recently sunny CD quarterlane Idaho Reverend Dr Joe. Watching the volume levels script for high priests queen to suck alter desks Lindsay. My wife also scared to death. Podcast CO host brought to my attention that California's suckers thought. I had shit all over them. In the recent Ruby Ridge suck no apparently will not feeling well during the recorded. Make one of my jokes explicitly clear when I told Californians to not move to Idaho. I was joking. I was expressing a common sentiment held around quarterlane and held around the rest of Idaho. I didn't make up that sentiment. It does exist. The semin exist because as I said. California's typically bring a lot more money into the area and drive the prices of homes up when they sell their homes in California For much higher prices than people who are able to sell their homes around Idaho for and that makes it houses unaffordable for some locals which makes him understandably not pleased. Also Shit on. Idaho's doing that sarcastically. Job To work for many pretending to hate it to keep the locals get mad at me for encouraging more. Californians move here so apparently I was just very confusing joke. I don't give a shit if you move here. Why wouldn't I want more fans in area? I've already bought my house so it doesn't affect me. If anything healthy I hope that clears everything up. I will work to further clear up some other views. I laid out in the Ruby Ridge. Sock here today This suck definitely related huge. Thank you to the rich. Show Aka the residual show not the Rizzo show in Saint Louis for helping to pack my shows out at helium. This past weekend Shipman. Saint Louis was on fire this time and I guess as you're hearing this it would be two weekends back also because I had to record this advanced Lake City shows but I'm guessing I had a lot of fun in Salt Lake City. 'cause all those shows were sold out before. I got there. What Fun ride is here to toxic dots tour a blast having so much fun? Introducing a lot more childhood stories than ever had before into my standup Nashville in two weeks march twelfth to the fourteenth at least one of those three shows already sold out. Stand up live in Huntsville on the fifteenth but only Alabama show for twenty twenty punchline in Philly March. Twenty six to twenty eight and then. I'll be at Hawaiian. Brian's in Honolulu Hawaii Sunday April fifty last state. I haven't actually done a show in yet of Dun Dun shows and the other forty nine but not Hawaii yet been there but not performed and then Houston Dallas San Antonio Atlanta Story Houston for half of my secret group Shows from Saturday the eighteenth to Thursday the sixteenth heads. Something random come up and had to reschedule just barely just by today's but seriously sorry about that a new months new charity. The Martin Richard Foundation Team Emirate recording this again before the end of the month so I don't know exactly how much will be given to them from the patriarch donations from the spaces. But it will be more than forty two hundred. The foundation was shared to us by meat. Sack Matt Cox out there in Boston. Maui. Emt happened to be at the Boston marathon when it was bombed in two thousand thirteen. An eight year old Martin. Richard was one of three people killed while hundreds of others were injured when two bombs exploded near the Boston Marathon. Finish line after his death photo of Martin holding a handmade sign spread across the Internet in the weeks that followed the signed read. No more hurting people. Peace and a charity was established in his honor. That Matt Cox Works hard to raise money for year year. And here is the Martin. Richard Foundation's mission statement the Martin. Richard Foundation works to advance the values of inclusion kindness justice and peace investing in community programs. That broaden horizons for young people and encourage them to celebrate diversity and engage in positive civic action. And you can donate either to Matt Cox's go fund me that he set up to raise extra money for this charity or donate directly to the charity. Feel more comfortable doing that. I'll put both links in today's episode description Fills appropriate that were given to a charity. Started in honor of bombing victim Because of this sucker today and also as you'll see this suck goes on. It feels appropriate. Were donated in something. It's working to broaden people's horizons. Encourage them to celebrate diversity and engage in positive civic action as opposed to being afraid of diversity and narrow minded and you know working on negative things so Okay thank you Matt Hale Nimrod got two new shirt designs available bad. Magic emerge dot com both based on the moon landing conspiracy suck. We did a while back. Some super cool space related designs available in a couple of different configurations all made out of a thousand percent dog skin from many many dogs that have been sent out into fake space on various fake NASA tests over the years filmed in Burbank Studios. Jk OMG does have funds Okay so now is GonNa Topic. I'm really amped. Update it really. This really made me examine some old beliefs of mine are learned more than I did in almost any other. Really scrutinize this one. And I'm excited to share this info with all of you. Let's get into some crazy shit. Yip Yip. Y'All lot of interesting stuff to unpack here today. I'm going to go over. How the Oklahoma City bombing was connected to both Ruby Ridge in the branch Davidian Waco compound rate two topics. We've already covered over the ideology of the Patriot movement that the bombers identified with in the history of militias in America and one of two timelines today. The bombers were in a militia per se. But they Were very much. Ideologically connected with America's militia movement. I'm GonNa talk about horrible book. The Turner Diaries. I had not heard of a book that strongly motivated. Timothy McVeigh to bomb a federal building in Oklahoma City. This book has inspired many many acts of hatred. It will be the subject of today's idiots of the Internet. A layout many BIOS for Timothy McVeigh Terry Nichols and Michael Forte. The three men connected to the bombing. Then I'll jump into our second time line to cover the events that lead up to and through the bombing itself so just to sucks ago. We covered the Ruby Ridge. Standoff episode one seventy nine. Two years ago we covered the siege of the branch Davidians Waco Texas suck seventy five today suck directly related to both those events also. The topic provides me with an opportunity to clear up my overall view of the US government. I may not be quite as statist is I appeared to many of you in the Ruby Ridge suck. I do feel like citizens should have a healthy level of skepticism and distrust towards any governing agency while also employing when valid respect and gratitude for the many good aspects of the government. Don't forget the. Us military law enforcement first responders public school teachers professors groups. I've consistently thanked for the services. They provide these groups are also part of quote the government. So I've never hated the whole government and out any of you do either if you really step back and evaluate the government. Are you frustrated joke around? I don't actually want to burn Washington. Dc TO THE GROUND. Most because they don't have a concrete plan to build something better back up in its place easy to gripe much harder to fix today. Suck especially coming on the heels of the Ruby Ridge sock. Did really make me think about how I feel about our government in a deeper way that I had a longtime made me really reexamine my beliefs after re-examining one's beliefs You know I think that is a that is a very good thing to do from time to time like what. Why do you believe what you believe? You know. Because you've thought a lot about it looked at all sides of the issue and have arrived at a well thought out conclusion or because well just because you always have just? Because I don't know you just it's just what you do it and you don't really know what you told yourself her for years in the minds of the perpetrators of the Oklahoma City bombing they attacked the US. Federal Government In an act of what they believed to be payback I. They believed that the federal government was was evil regime. An Act of revenge over the feds handling of both Randy Weaver's family armed confrontation with with the FBI and the US marshals in Ruby Ridge. Idaho and David Koresh and his followers violent clash with the FBI in Waco. Tex these events were in the minds of people like Oklahoma City bomber. Timothy McVeigh continuation of other totalitarian actions. Taken by government. They felt was increasingly unwilling. Excuse me increasingly willing to turn on his people as it marched towards the end. Goal of one world government Enslavement in the minds of former army. Vets Tim McVeigh Terry Nichols and Michael. Forte the new world order was leaving. Its boot print on the faces of American citizens with increasing regularity and it was time to fight or let the republic die like with so many other horrible actions that have been carried out throughout human history. The to the Oklahoma City bombing was paved with some pretty irrational beliefs. Although the two main conspirator conspirators behind the bombing Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were not directly connected with any major political group. They did hold views characteristic of the broad Patriot movement a movement feared authoritarian plots by the US federal government and corporate elites trying to subjugate and control the American citizenry and a movement. Like this in my opinion is bound to bring in a few actual patriots. People who care deeply about the core values of America being infringed upon by the federal government. And it's also going to bring in a lot of paranoid Wackadoo lsu think? Nefarious forces are hard at work behind the scenes to turn the working class into a slave state and what are the core values of America? Anyways WE'LL ask ten people and you'll probably get ten different answers. But for the most part. They seem to revolve around freedom. Equality Individualism and growth and these values are each interpreted differently by different people. Take Freedom. What does that word actually mean to you? Are you truly free to do whatever you like to do? Sometimes I'd like to kill the deer. Come in my yard and rallied my dogs and blanket my long with. Oh so many piles of their hard to pick up fellowship but if a shot one of those dear. I GET A lot of trouble. I get in trouble for. Fire my rifle inside city limits. You know because I'm not doing it in a gun range. I get in trouble for poaching. Deer are never in season in my yard. Get in trouble for endangering my neighbors risking shooting one of them by accident when I shoot deer so I guess I'm free to do it but now without consequences not free to legally do everything I'd like to do. I am free to say anything I WANT TO SAY. Here on this podcast. Well I mean actually you know within reason. I can't even say everything I you know. I would always want to say without fear of some legal consequence for example throughout the address with someone. I didn't care for and asked you to go to that address and kill them making a little trouble pregnant myself to so you know some jail time there. None of us are truly free to do whatever we want without legal consequences lands have laws and if you break those laws even the free free countries you gotta be punished or you should be so. No one on. Earth is really ever truly totally free based on various polls and studies the most important freedoms for Americans the freedom of speech that's my number one Freedom of religion is number one to a lot of people the ability to have due process for crimes. One has been accused of is a freedom important to many of us. The right to bear arms is the most important for him to many. It's important for him to be as well. It's all so complicated when you really look at it. And don't just speak in buzz. Words and slogans. This illustrates why people can pontificate and argue about politics endlessly. It's deceptively very complicated but also at its core very simple. I think most people wanna be able to just fuck whoever they WANNA fuck whenever they want to. What are those people are into it or not right? I mean humans animals objects freedoms mostly about the right to tie someone or something up. And carry it to your soundproof basement. And Yell at him or her it and just fuck it you know. I think we can all agree on that. You know if you can't take someone's Nanna or pop and time up. Put JUMPER CABLES ON NIPPLES JUICE. And while you're standing next to him and masturbating in the more they sizzle the harder you get. Are you even fucking free at all? No Sir and hopefully you know that I'm kidding. Just hang got saying. That is weird sweet. Jesus hoping what I just said was horrific intentionally hope to new listeners. Tuning in for the first time hearing that and thinking themselves finally soccer get no I think freedom at its core is simple. I think most people want to live the most free life possible in a land or they are there are laws that protect them from other citizens laws upheld via law enforcement most people want affordable access to education and healthcare to live in a nation with an economy to provide them the opportunity to buy private land and build wealth and worship whatever. God they want to worship participate in elections that allow them to help steer their nation the directions they'd like to go while also having a military strong enough to protect everything. I've just laid out from foreign invasion and members of the so-called Patriot movement a moving the Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols again. Were ideologically very much in tune with where they were very worried that the US government was going to take away the freedom they cared about the most and that was the right to bear arms and then that would lead to having other freedoms taken away and eventually they'd be enslaved at its most extreme. Some Patriot movement members were so convinced that the federal government was an enemy of the common citizen that they denied the basic legitimacy of the federal government and law enforcement. They felt they didn't have to follow their loss right. They refused to follow their loss. Militia groups reform across the nation by men and women but mostly men who are worried to various degrees about the federal government by the mid nineties. There were about thirty thousand militia members in the US. The militias justify their existence by claiming a right to armed self defense against our allegedly oppressive government in this context the date of the Oklahoma City attack April nineteenth was very significant doubly significant falling onto anniversaries very important to the modern militia and Patriot movement April Nineteenth Marks Patriots Day the anniversary of the American rebellion against British Authority Lexington Massachusetts in seventeen seventy five the beginning of the revolutionary war. The Boston marathon ran every year on Patriots Day. Several states recognize it as a state holiday. Also April nineteenth is the date when federal agents raided the heavily armed compound of the Branch Davidian religious cult in Waco Texas in Nineteen ninety-three. So this date was definitely significant. To McVeigh he claimed that the building in Oklahoma City he bomb was targeted to avenge the deaths. Waco following the Oklahoma City Attack Media Law enforcement officials began intense investigations of the militia movement and other armed extremist groups in America and just before Waco McVeigh had closely followed the Ruby Ridge siege. We discovered that two weeks ago with her. You know one hundred seventy nine episodes so we'll only go into here. Briefly Ruby Ridge was the location of violent eleven day standoff in Remote Boundary County Idaho beginning on August twenty first nineteen ninety two the followed roughly a year. And a half's worth of you know the weavers refusal to go to court over a weapons charge. Us marshals and federal agents faced off against Randy weaver a Christian extremist worried about an impending apocalypse in an anti-semitic believer in a Jewish shadow government and his equally paranoid wife. We were children and family. Friend Kevin Harris also involved in the standoff. The Ruby Ridge incident follows several years of investigations into we were by local authorities the FBI the ATF. And the Secret Service and an ended with the shooting death of a US marshal. We was wife Vicki and their teenage son. Sammy this incident especially the sniper shot an unarmed Vicki weaver in her home unarmed while holding her newborn baby no less enrage many in the Patriot and end of days Christian movements as well as many other people who were a little more mainstream in their beliefs across the nation. The controversial event was seen as a major law enforcement blunder. Too many which it definitely was many of you brought it to my attention that despite the context I laid out in the Ruby Ridge suck the lead up to the shootings the F. B. I. Sniper should not have just shot randy or Vicki weaver when Randy and Vicki. We're not imminent threat to law enforcement. And while I hate randy weaver I will concede that something else. Maybe could have been done to extract. Oh Handy Randy and sticky Vicki. Maybe rubber bullets teargas gas. I don't know it's hard to say since they had kids in there that the agents were prioritizing getting them out safely and try not to shoot. I Dunno some things. You eventually have to agree to disagree on. This might be one of them for me. I go so back and forth on this but I do see that. There is a side obviously to the use of excessive government force. And that's why you know Randy. Weaver was awarded money after this all went down and so our kids You know from the from the government to those in the Patriot movement. The shooting of Vicki. Weaver was definitely seen as a flagrant and gross abuse of power by government willing to casually use lethal force to subdue its own citizens. Mcvay actually visited the weaver cabinet after the incident and said this visit greatly. Fueled his self-righteous anti-government anger and fury that eight months later Waco happened many militia extremists such as McVeigh. Were now certain that the US government was out of control. It was an Evil Empire. It had lost. Its Way and it must be stopped. We covered the heroine branch. Davidian store in seventy fifth episode of the suck so we won't go into great detail about happened about what happened there here today. Just a quick summary. Again the Waco siege began in early. Nineteen ninety-three when a government rate on the Mount Carmel Cult Compound near Waco Texas led to a fifty one day standoff between federal agents and members of a millennial Christian called the branch Davidians. The compounds leader David. Koresh was just minding his own business. You know telling his extremely devoted followers that he was the lamb of God. You know the illegal weapons. He and his followers were gathering stuff like automatic military grade rifles and hand grenades You know we're just for an apocalyptic battle in which they would all be killed and then he will be resurrected along with the faithful followers to the slaughter in and they would judge God's enemies and for some reason. The government was alarmed by this. They thought it was illegal and weird. The government didn't like the fact. That crash was fucking girls rumored to be as young as eleven years old taking multiple brides and such which just you know just weird. Guess again and then. Atf agent surrounded this compound and they didn't like it when crushes follower started shooting them? Why couldn't the government just chill and let this dude fuck kids pretend to be got shoot them? In the big bad government started shooting back against these heavily armed kid fucking enabling religious zealot lunatics and the siege ended dramatically on April nineteenth nineteen ninety-three big date when fires consumed compound leaving some seventy five people dead including twenty five children. It'd be gun on February twentieth. Nineteen ninety-three when some agents from the US Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms attempted to raid the compound after receiving reports at the branch Davidians and their leader. Koresh were violating federal firearms regulations which they were after four ATF. Agents in six divisions were killed in the gunbattle that followed a ceasefire was arranged then nearly nine hundred law enforcement officials eventually surrounded the compound including hostage negotiators in rescue teams from the FBI. Reporters soon arrived on the scene as well in the fifty one day siege the follow would play it on TV screens in a newspaper headlines across the world despite some early negotiating successes division sent about two dozen children out in exchange for food and other supplies numerous children remained amongst those inside. Many of them crushes children. He had with various women. Most of them young teens. When they were wed to David in the end it was only Karesh children who remained inside with him in his negotiations with the FBI. During the Waco siege caress claim that he was the Messiah. Nick Messianic the real figure prophesied in the Bible and God had given him his surname and the ATF. Agents were like. Yeah cool story Bro. Now please liberty out come out and face. Charges and Chris was like Nah Brow. Hear me fucking God Bro. And he threatened violence against those who would attack them in his family. Also asserting the Davidians weren't planning a mass suicide even though he was doing that to the branch Davidians Karesh was the lamb the only one according to the book of revelation worthy of unlocking the seven seals and revealing to the world the entirety of the. Bible's teachings this identification allowed. Koresh to justify some of his controversial practices including taking various spiritual wives again. Some reportedly as young as eleven in mid April after religious scholars reached out to crush to a radio discussion to talk to him about the teachings of revelation crushed a message through his lawyer announcing he had received a new prophecy from God was riding his message on the seven seals. And when he was finished he'd come out with his followers. The FBI was not convinced Though initially reluctant Attorney General Janet Reno ended up approving a plan to fire. Cs Gas a former tear gas into the mount. Carmel Compound try and force out to Davidians. Just after six. Am On April. Nineteenth nineteen ninety-three FBI agents used to specially equipped tanks to penetrate the compound and deposit some four hundred containers of tear gas inside dramatic imagery. A lot of people didn't like seeing the Military tanks head into you know essentially a private residence of sorts soon as this is attack ended around noon. Several fires simultaneously broke out around the compound. Gunfire was heard inside. Safety concerns prevented firefighters from entering mount. Carmel immediately they didn't want to get shot by armed cult members and the flames spread quickly engulfed the property. Though nine Davidians were actually able to escape investigators later found seventy six bodies inside the compound including all twenty five of the remaining children some of them including Karesh had fatal gunshot wounds suggesting suicide or murder suicide and many blame the government for these deaths. I'm not one of those. Not only am. I not someone who doesn't think the FBI was responsible for this tragedy. I don't understand how logically anyone else could some people want to say in the standoff the FBI shot. I know that they set the fires intentionally. I doubt it. I read a lot about doubt it but even if they did. Let's humor that. Let's say they did They didn't initiate the armed standoff by. You know building up an illegal militia and fucking kids inside the compound. You don't get you. Don't get to shoot at law enforcement and refused to leave. Leave a compound where we're kids being molested and not have some righteous aggressive justice thrown your way view. Convince yourself that the. Us government is at the Taliban regime akin to Nazi Germany. Or Stalinist communist Russia. Then okay through that. Lens you're GonNa view all state. Police action is being oppressive brutal. And you can view this incident as some people who just wanted to to live life the way they wanted to live and they wanted the freedom to worship their. God and the way they chose soon. The big bad government came in fucking stop. I look at the FBI raided the branch Davidian compound as another confrontation between a reasonable rational state. Dealing with an irrational and unreasonable group of apocalyptic religious fucking lunatics was a bunch of cool. Good people just want to live their lives and sing a few songs. It was people who dragged children in tune incredibly fucked up. Zealots sexualize compound do have the right to worship and have faith belief system. You choose but if those beliefs lead you to break the law and doing shit like stockpiling illegal weapons for Pakalitha battle or fucking kids within you. Know what you gotta pay the Piper. How could you expect anything else? And I hope it's always that way. Hope you never get to like have that kind of freedoms fucking insane could. Us government have handled their Attack on the weaver family and the attack upon the branch Davidian compound with more grace handled things in a way that could have less and less bloodshed. Sure Right Hindsight's twenty twenty. I'm guessing agents would have liked for Vicki Sammy. Weaver to have lived through the Ruby Ridge siege and for all the kids to have lived to the Waco siege but again Weavers Karesh. They were the ones who lit the fuses in those incidents. Not The other way round is hard for me to stay calm on some of this just because I truly to the depth of being the matter. How much look at it. Just think that most people online have it wrong on this Just my view is my opinion but man do I believe it and the more look into it the more I believe it Timothy McVeigh did not agree with my view. I'm pretty sure he would've added to people kill list. For hold my view he would see me as a traitor view him as a misguided domestic terrorists the movements that McVeigh Align with were enraged by WACO. Did the government burn the compound down on purpose? How could they attack with such force on a place known to have children? Inside McVeigh Spent Time in Waco before the final siege. We'll get to that in a bit I some more militia context to understand McVeigh's motivations You know we we gotta understand groups. He was surrounded himself with in the Ruby Ridge. Suck we covered the history of the apocalyptic Christian movements in the nation's definitely check that out if you haven't heard it if you want more context right now let's trace McVeigh's Brandon militia in the Patriot movement. That were busy preparing for the new world order. The words Patriot. Militia had become strange spectrums of extremes in the US being a patriot is such a loaded term. There's the dictionary definition a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend against enemies or detractors but some Americans who do view themselves as Patriots see people who support the modern. Us government as the opposite a patriots. Those who accept the laws of government debut to be an Evil Empire are traders treasonous cowards? Who Support the dismantling of the US Constitution according to this view. If you follow it to its logical conclusion all government workers including every single member of the military every single enforcement officer all treasonous traders bastards. Sometime suckers had an issue with me referring to randy weaver as a domestic terrorist. Two weeks ago saying that by by by definition the revolutionaries who founded America must have been terrorists as well. Yeah they were George. Washington was a terrorist to some. Both labels are technically correct while heroes are not always terrorist. Terrorists are always heroes. Some right Osama Laden was a terrorist in the eyes of Americans in the eyes of his fellow. Al Qaeda revolutionaries those in favor of an all out jihad against America. He was absolutely a hero. George Washington was a hero to those who wanted to. Us colonies to declare independence. From Great Britain to British citizens British loyalists living over England to British loyalist. Living in America he was a terrorist. Terrorist or hero slash revolutionary. It all just depends on where you're sitting so was Randy Weaver. A domestic terrorist or an American revolutionary. He was both you decide which one applies for you. It all depends on your view regarding whether or not You viewed his cause as just in. Randy's specific fight. I support the state. The state to me was more rational than randy. Weaver though to me randy was a terrorist. I didn't pledge allegiance to Randy's view of America. He wanted to destroy my America so to me again domestic terrorists for sure. I hope that makes sense. That's about as good as I can explain it back to the Patriot movement. The Patriot movement that existed and early nineties of Timothy. Mcveigh's time line was a hodgepodge of extreme beliefs in a complicated the word Patriot even further. A sizeable chunk of their numbers were apocalypse. Obsessed Christians like we covered on the weaver and crush episodes people who thought they were living during the end times people who thought they were stars of some big final celestial battle God's chosen warriors people who are very hard to reason with when they think the government has something to do with his final battle because these people are by the very nature of their extreme beliefs unreasonable people some of the Patriots were and still are small government. Constitutionalists mini anarchist volunteers Dozen different flavors of generally Uber Conservative leaning extreme free to mine folk some consider themselves Libertarians. Some even identifies right-leaning anarchists Mister good quick spot to to bring up how identify with Libertarians. Here a randy. Weaver from the Ruby Ridge sucked. Timothy McVeigh Terry Nichols from today. Suck guessing They identified or identify more as Libertarians than is Republicans or Democrats. I bet real hard on that. I referenced having Libertarian Leanings. Many times in the past that does not mean I agree with everything agree with obviously but because I have reference these beliefs many times and they do tie into this particular topic. I do feel like a longtime listeners. A better understanding of my beliefs I offered any longtime stand up. Fan Understands I'm I'm not in favor of big government. I wrote a long intricate and lengthy standup story explaining why I have this. Belief called a department of caffeinated beverage distribution you can listen to it on. Pandora spotify Youtube but CETERA on the Chinese affection album. Very quick summary. I don't want big government because my interactions with private company employees competing to make a profit have overall been more enjoyable than my interactions with government employees. Who Knew I have to deal with them? Because there is no market competition and that bid compared starbucks to the DMV. I ask the audience. They thought the government would do a better job handling caffeine distribution than starbucks. I don't think they would because human nature if you have to run a profitable business keep Goddamn job. Odds are you're going to work harder than you will if your job will continue to exist regardless of profitability right. Thanks to government funding where you can be paid to be mediocre. That doesn't mean that all government employees are mediocre. Not at all just saying it's a little easier in that world. It is in the private world because of profit. So is this a libertarian belief? Yes yes it is. I'm not a party man in general but I do. Identify Far More Libertarian. Party than I do with Republican Democrat parties. Now again to be clear not hundred percent line with any party. I've been pretty openly pro death penalty. As you know and Libertarian. Saw they actually do not support state. death penalties also stars. Libertarians are four privatization of the education system. And I'm not ready to say that's a great idea yet to get rid of public education. That doesn't sit well with me. according to Wikipedia the Libertarian. Party is a political party in the US to promote civil liberties non-interventionism laws affair capitalism and limiting the size the scope of government and overall that is what I believe are reviewed their most recent party platform. I would say that I agree with about eighty percent of its tenants. I'm in favor of civil liberties with minimal government intervention. I don't think the Government Chevy saying who is married for example as long as both parties are adults dudes to women when biological men who identifies as a woman. When biological woman who identifies. I don't give a shit. Libertarians by the way Aren't even making a judgment. Call the morality of homosexuality or transgenderism. They just don't think it's the government's place to decide who it's okay for you to marry. I'm in favor of other civil liberties like the right to bear arms within reason. I don't want my neighbors have an anti-aircraft missiles and five hundred pounds of plastic explosives. But I don't mind him having Semi Automatic Rifles handguns. One bit. She goes down in my neighbourhood. I want my neighbors to be armed and be able to help defend my family and there's as well. That's a libertarian stance. I'm in favor of free speech due process freedom of the press many more personal civil liberties that is in the central tenets of libertarianism is putting individual rights ahead of governmental oversight. It's basically don't fucking tell me what to do you not my mom. That could be the libertarian motto handle. Sam You're not my mom. Stop telling me what to do. And I support many other personal freedoms. Y'All my taxes port law enforcement and military well funded public education institutions all. My taxes supporter will maintain infrastructure that allows for the free flow of capitalism. Makes you the roads and runways or in good condition government to act as a corporate watchdog regulate capitalism? I don't want Jeff Bezos Bill Gates or any other modern day rockfeller to own the whole damn country all my taxes sports social programs to take care of basic housing hospitalization for working. Americans knows unable to work due to mental or physical ailments or disabilities. Don't want my taxes used successfully for four aid. Domestically to many of my fellow citizens are living in squalor. I WANNA I want us to clean up our own backyard before trying to clean up everyone else's. I don't want my taxes to support prisons full of non-violent drug users in fact I don't want the government telling me what drugs I can take out all now my fucking mom. This is very libertarian. Stance one of the most radical moves. I would make legalize all drugs all of them. Not Kidding. In my opinion life punishes you hard enough for drug abuse. The social and financial repercussions are plenty of punishment. You don't need to also be incarcerated. Become a junkie eventually. Odds are you'll end up in prison anyway committing crimes to feed your addiction. Taxing drugs no longer using police officers to bus drug user would provide us with a huge economic boost. Studies estimated could save tens if not hundreds of billions annually. I'd also legalize prostitution nationwide. Another strong libertarian belief. You know it's still going to happen. So let's Talk Boston. Prostitutes who are already the bottom socioeconomic ladder adding rap sheets to them is not helping them out adding clinics where they can be educated about and tested for. Std's will help not hurt. Basically I would remove most big brothers parental powers if I were in charge again now my mom Michael Sam stop trying to regulate my morality and I could go on and on but I'll stop there. Many of my beliefs do line up with a lot of beliefs of the main protagonists of today's tale. Timothy McVeigh Terry Nichols Michael J. These dudes especially McVeigh did not like being told what to do by alkyl Sam but McVeigh also supported a Lotta Shit. I don't like right just like the weavers did there was this wing of the Patriots. Mcveigh's Day and they're still around now to some degree who also believed in racial segregation white supremacy white nationalism and neo. Nazism LIKE WEAVER. Mcveigh was also Super Racist. I'm not in that way and the pisses me off these idiots. Bring their bullshit into political group. I do identify with many of the ways. A Neo Nazis are defined at least by the southern poverty law center as groups that share a hatred for Jews and a love for Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany while they also hate other minorities gays and lesbians and even Sometimes Christians they perceive the Jew as the as their cardinal enemy. Ruby Ridge is Randy. Weaver for example was extremely antisemitic right. He believed he was fighting. Zog Zionist occupied government not all members of the Patriot movement racist not. Unfortunately many of these so-called patriots habit some have been centrist practical commonsense individuals over big government. Libertarians others have been apocalypse minded. Christian radicals Aaron supremacists and fuck the government. Anarchists many of the more radical members read the underground bestseller the Turner. Diaries which will go over at length later on you know. They listened to underground conspiracy and Christian. Radio programs saw themselves as modern versions again of the founding fathers The notion of don't tread on me perhaps the The main thing that united various factions of the Patriot movement that and gun ownership. So I've heard this phrase. Don't tread on me. What the fuck does it actually mean will. Don't tread on me the now. Iconic phrase often accompanied by the equally iconic coiled Timber Rattler Rattlesnake. Hearkens all the way back to seventeen seventy five when it was designed by American revolutionary and General Christian our Christopher Gadston and. I know this is crazy but it was initially used as an anti sodomy. Battlecry fucking nuts is that Sodomy had become rampant within the ranks of the redcoats. I bet you were not taught that in school had less to do with sexual preference more to do with circumstance. Red Coach for sent from Britain to America. And we're away from their wives for several years years at a time you know. In many cases they're also young men with healthy libidos and it was less frowned upon for these men to have sex with American men who were stationed with them and auxiliary roles and it wasn't considered homosexual the time if you were the top so to speak so in the years leading up to the revolutionary war thousands of young American men were sodomized repeatedly by the British in. We're sick of it. I mean most of them specifically I'm guessing some light it but in general they were against it and tread on at the time was slang for. Stick it in so. Don't tread on me originally meant. Don't stick it in me and I really really hope that at least one. You had to stop listening to the episode. A second or two ago and believed thousand made up syllables. Shit but I'm just It can make me feel so good. If somebody had stopped you know they got to work and like what the fuck talking to co workers. Yeah Fuck don't tread on me guys. We're tagging Buffett Buy British They fought back. No don't tread on me means. Don't walk all over me. It was used Continental Marines as an early model. Flack the precursor to the Stars and Stripes. Benjamin Franklin had used the rattlesnake and earlier revolutionary illustrations. Going all the way. Back to seventeen fifty one. When he made the satirical suggestions the colonies might repay the crown for shipping convicts to America by distributing rattlesnakes round England particularly in the gardens of the prime minister's the lords of trade and members of parliament for to them. We are most particularly obliged then seventeen. Fifty four made a now famous woodcut of a snake chopped into eight sections representing the then eight colonies and it said join or die and then gets in presented this image to the Continental Congress snake in the words. Don't tread on me AK. Don't walk all over me. It was eighteenth version. Sr Eighteenth Century version of a meam and it. Just don't let the British walk all over us. Americans and then the flag was replaced by the snaky Stars and Stripes. I love flag. Got Admit it will be fucking way more metal if you had a big ass rattlesnake on it and don't try to be simple began to be used. Symbol of data initial revolutionary spirit of Americans overthrowing British oppressors in favor of having more liberty. You know From from America's very inception represented the fight to overthrow tyranny. Just about every time. Some group feels that our government is become torrential become the modern equivalent of the British government. That we over through that flag and those words come back out. Don't tread on me motherfucker. Don't take away my right. Yeah since Nineteen Seventies. Don't try to also become strongly identify with libertarianism Basically now means good luck infringed upon constitutional rights to some and also if you want my guns you son of a bitch on my cold dead hands. So that's you know that's that's a general overview of the Patriot movement beliefs Today enough for today. Let's now look at America's militia movement the Oklahoma City bombers were also a part of in a way they weren't they weren't in a militia but the militia movement coincided with their beliefs Most people tend to view modern militias in one or two ways there is no doubt the founders saw militias is essential to the safety of the principles of the New Republic created in some view of modern militias brave citizens soldiers. Ready to fight to uphold that ideal other C- malicious a bunch of lawless wacky doodles with big guns bad ideas and worsen tensions fueled by the delusional belief that they could actually take on the US military in a firefight and win I used to subscribe to that latter view but I don't anymore now I do think militias could truly help keep the government in check. Does that make me Wackernagel? I don't know maybe I don't think so. I know a lot of my friends would disagree here. We had a little bit before he decided. I think it's important to point out that even with superior weapons drones bombers and tanks. Us Armed Forces have not easily tread over armed insurgents in foreign lands. Not Not totally. Most veterans will tell you that I believe that urban warfare against people only armed with rifles and other rudimentary weapons is not a cakewalk. Even with satellites thermal night vision you know Aircraft carriers more look at look at Iraq Vietnam Afghanistan. I mean the US military even superior numbers training. Weaponry has not historically been able to just rolling with tanks and bombs and quickly get everybody fighting back with only rifles to lay down their arms immediately surrendered. There's a lengthy history of people with inferior numbers and weaponry successfully staging lengthy lengthy insurgencies. So militias have been continued be successful in that regard right some argued that the US has a vast amount of nukes an armed militia would be a relevant no matter what the numbers but the idea that the use of the US military nuking their own people on their own land. I think it's pretty absurd. I mean what is the point of winning the war if you have to ruin the land? You're you're fighting for to win it. So could militias keep the US government from say enacting martial law and the population enforcing unconstitutional? Legislations I mean maybe I think they would at least make it a lot harder for the government to do so could slow down the military maybe even radically slow it down long enough to win a battle of hearts and minds so to speak. Turn the tides war that way Within the militia movement the Second Amendment is of particular importance That is a well. Regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed although some people consider militias to be today's national guard therefore relegating the kinds of militias. We're talking about to be obsolete. A militia was defined by the founders to be made up of armed citizens separate from the military. The National Guard is certainly considered part of the military. Today it's a reserve component of the US armed forces and modern militia members. Find this being separate from the government distinction to be crucially important. If you're being paid for being paid by the government to fight for the government by you're not exactly going to keep the government in check. Are you know you're you're in bed with government you report to the government you could be hypothetically used to suppress the public on behalf of the government. I do see the logic there in this nature of militias potentially odds with law enforcement and our military obviously makes them a bit controversial Militias have been controversial since they're very inception almost as soon as militias defeated the redcoats in the American Revolution State. Legislators Were interested in getting rid of them. There's also been a lot of confusion regarding the stance of some of the founding fathers as far as how they viewed militias since the since the very early days of our nation. There's a lot of false quotes credited to America's founders all over the Internet important context has been left out of other quotes. Let's look into this. Because you're quote very in the militia movement Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. Perhaps the two most misquoted people on the Internet one powerful quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson. That is a major modern militia. Battlecry is dissent is the highest form of patriotism. I've heard that the Senate is the highest form of patriotism powerful words however according to the Monticello historical records there is no evidence that he ever said the historian. Howard Zinn said those words in an interview posted on Tom. Paine DOT COM in two thousand and two to justify his opposition to the war on terror and then that got quickly twisted as belonging to Thomas Jefferson on the Web Zinn may have borrowed quote from a nineteen sixty one. Publication called the use of force in international affairs It doesn't seem to show up anywhere at all prior to that This is not to say. The Jefferson wasn't a revolutionary. He did say. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of Patriots and Taryn tyrants so he was radical dude. He just wasn't running around yelling. Descent does the real pages. Once you heal. Fuck government the dissenters just that. That's not true are very first president. George Washington was also not as in favor of militias as he is now often portrayed in seventeen seventy six. He reportedly griped about militiamen amongst his own forces. Saying whose behavior and want of discipline has done great injury to the other troops his often quoted as writing the seemingly. Super pro-militia message to George Mason Mason in one thousand nine hundred and seventeen sixty nine That no man should scruple or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing on which all the good and evil of life depends is clearly might opinion and he did indeed write that but he continued writing adding Yet arms I would. Beg Leave to add. Should be the last resource. The DERNIER RESORT. Deniro's another way of saying last by the way so he was in favor of an armed revolution but only as a last resort and Washington. Also wrote this to Alexander Hamilton. In May of seventeen eighty three. It may be laid down as the primary position and the basis of our system that every citizen who enjoys the protection of a free government owes not only a proportion of his property but even his personal services to the defense of it and consequently that the citizens of America with a few legal and official exceptions from eighteen to fifty years of age should be born on the militia rules provided with uniform arms and so far accustomed to the use of them that the total strength of the country might be called forth at a short notice on a very interesting emergency Seem Super pro-militia. Right now not necessarily in seventeen eighty three. The United States did not have a proper army so Washington wasn't saying here that we needed a militia. In addition to the army he was saying we needed someone anyone to defend our brand new country. The Treaty of Paris had just officially ended the revolutionary war that year because of the inability of Congress to raise much early revenue under the articles of confederation American suspicion of standing armies and perceived safety from foreign enemies provided by large oceans effectively controlled by the non-threatening British navy. Congress disbanded the continental army after the treaty Paris. The peace treaty with Great Britain became effective when it became effective Congress retained eighty caretaker soldiers to protect arms and equipment at West Point New York and Fort Pitt and called in the states to furnish seven hundred men from their militias for one year of service on the frontier by June third. Seventeen thousand four. The continental army had only eighty dudes. Left in it eighty. That was the entire fucking army and they were looking to semi-formal militias to bolster the teeny tiny force of troops. So again washing wasn't like we need a militia to keep our government in check. No he was like. Hey guys we need a fucking army or someone who's GonNa kick the shit out of us and since for all against taxes since we can't afford proper organized army Can we at least have a militia? He was in favor of a militia to protect the government. Not Oppose it during the same period of not having a sizable army. That another now. Famous pro-militia quote was uttered by Richard Henry. Lee Who's in American statesman from Virginia. Best known for the Motion in the Second Congress. Calling for the colony's independence from Great Britain. His famous resolution of June seventeen seventy led to the US declaration of independence. Which Lee signed. You also served one term as the president of the Continental Congress and was. Us Senator from Virginia seventy nine to seventeen ninety two and he said a militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves and include according to the past in general usage of the states all men capable of bearing arms to preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught to like especially when young how to use them here again. He wasn't talking about preserving liberty. In the sense of standing up to the newly formed American government. He was talking about standing up to the redcoats to the British army. An American needed a militia. Because again we did not have a proper army big enough to stand up to English might without the aid of a militia so not all of our founding fathers were as pro-militia in the modern sense is they have been made out to be on the Internet. However some definitely were pro-militia no webster the founder of Webster Dictionary. The man known to many as the father of American scholarship and education. Too Smart Dude. He did support the modern militias primary purpose. He did once right before. Standing army can rule. The people must be disarmed as they are in almost every country in Europe. The Supreme Power. In America cannot enforce unjust law unjust laws by the sword because the whole body of the people are armed and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops troops. Now that hard time reading. They're fucking weird as old timey language. By the way my God I I would fuck tick a gun shoot myself. I had to live back then. Listen these fuckers. Give speeches like that. They fall standing all making them rue. The people must shut the fuck up. Dude Dude just get the port enough with the flowery language. Take your wig off speak straight. He's some bitch But that is a pro-militia quote now if Sandra buts about it right how else can you interpret that? He saying that the powers that be can't just have their way with you if they can't push you around right because you're not opt by because you are armed. You're on the camp last one. James Madison was also a militia fan. In the modern sense he wants said besides the advantage of being armed which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation the existence of subordinate governments to it's the people are attached and by which the militia officers are appointed forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition. More insurmountable than any which is simple. Government of any form can admit of Definitely promise old-timey US You Know Confusing. Speak for for nothing. Government from abused his power better than well armed citizenry fuck Gabbara now that we understand some of the ideological beginnings of America Militia Movement. Let's take a look at the history of how this movement developed a just a brief one over our nation's history A full one could be a an entire suck into in in and of itself is able to look at a few historical moments an incidence of inspiration for for later militia members in our first of two time suck timelines trap on those boots. So dear where Martin down a time suck time line. Seventeen eighty seven after the militia's help in fighting the British constitutional convention delegates clash over whether the militia should come under national control as a compromise. The constitution grants the federal government. The power to call up the militia but leaves the employment of officers to the states. Eighteen thirty one a mandatory militia duty becomes unpopular states began to abolish it. People don't want to have to be in the militia by the eighteen forties. Many states have set up an organized militia with actual responsibilities and unorganized militia. That exists in name only the militia act of nineteen. Oh three also known as the Dick Act beefs up state militias with federal funding and gives the feds the power to review state militias for many. This goes against the spirit of the Second Amendment remember. The Second Amendment is about the people bearing arms not the government not trained soldiers and It really is known as the Dick Act named out. Republican Ohio Congressman and Senator Charles. Dick Mr Dick and Mr Dick was chairman of the militia committee. Mr Dick had also volunteered as part of the Ohio Army National Guard to fight in the Spanish American war and he served in Cuba is a major and then lieutenant colonel and some think that did cut the balls off the American militia movement. Something dig us off and came to keep militias out of government hands and not everyone wanted to soft Dick. A lot of people wish Dick would have gotten hard when it came to keeping the militias. Balls out of the government's hands type stance. Some people thought the politicians who wanted the government to fund in supervised control militias were pussies who are a little wet behind the ears when it came to protecting the second amendment. And They WanNa Dick Fuck those pussies. They wanted a hard dick to fuck those wet pussies. You get nine hundred sixteen. The National Guard which evolved from the organized government-sanctioned militia became part of the army again arguments. About what a militia was meant to be or numerous many people think the second amendment is being trampled by this. Is this argument going on for a long time? Skip ahead several decades nineteen seventy-one William Potter Gail White Supremacist Antisemitic. Activists Forms of Proto Patriot. Group called Posse comitatus come Tatas there. We go Latin for power of the of the county which purports that the highest levels of authority should be the county government. Gail says Sheriff's violated the Constitution should be taken to a populated. Intersection hung there by their neck. This group spreads across the West and the Midwest by the Nineteen Hundred S. We mention gale in the Christian or you mentioned him and the Christian identity movement in his whole kind of sovereign citizen ideology in the Ruby Ridge. Suck idiot racists taken a few good ideas about keeping the government from getting too powerful than mixing it with a bunch of racists and apocalyptic and otherwise it's insane ideas in nineteen seventy six congress passes the Federal Land Policy and Management Act kicking off the stage brush rebellion which seeks to establish state local control over public lands in the West. This is a big one. For the modern militia movement big you know states versus federal rights. You know the whole county small versus Federal Rights The the the main thrust of the militia kind of anger is towards the federal government has been for a long time Many miners ranchers. The West rebelled against federal colonialism. Back in seventy six. That came in the form of environmental laws from the Wilderness Act to the endangered species. Act to especially the federal policy management. Act People talk about former militias. Are People talked about four militias to prevent the federal government from taking over Lance? Lotta people were pissed off about all this. The Federal Land Policy and Management Act shifted the Bureau of land management mandate from one of maximizing extraction from public lands to preserving the same lands at least to a limited extent right in the Sagebrush rebellion movement had many members from local politicians entire boards of county commissioners to State legislators even US congressman. These rebels wanted more local control at the county and state levels over the land that surrounded them. They didn't want the federal government telling them how to manage their own backyards. And in a lot of places you know a lot of rural places around the country. People are still angry about that. I can hear my Stepdad. Getting irritated about this In my head right now he He hates federal control over the lands. He grew up around and so I do get that sentiment. Get it hundred percent however I also see the other side I get the federal government wanting to have a more uniform method of nature conservation the key environment of the whole nation more pristine for future generations to come and I love that I love a national park love a beautiful wooded mountainside love walking along deer trails out in the woods clean woods. I was raised in the woods. I live around the woods. Now I can sit in my hot tub at night and often do and look at pine covered mountainside across the lake fucking loving and if local local lands were in local hands. Would all look just as nice as it looks right now? It would not where I grew up in. Riggins four share one thousand percent Holy Shit. There would be clear cuts left and right mudslides mountainsides raped to make a quick buck. For local loggers. There would be land not maintained by the forest service but instead neglected by locals. Now it'd be though litter with bullet casings and beer cans. Just like I've seen many private lance my Stepdad's buddies God damn it just a fucking mess. Because they don't give a shit. Don't give a shit how it looks. It would look like a bug of fucking trailer Park Front Yard. What we that way everywhere. I can't say I can only speak for where I grew up. My Dad loves hunting more than anything on earth. I think he'll cry if I don't you to Whitetail Buck this fall at for not getting a shot off these passes. His big complaint about hunting is people to shitting all over the woods and he's he's a former logger who hates clearcuts hates people who just fucking raped. The forest. Love the woods almost like a spiritual way. It pains him to see a disrespected and I hated to trash left by trashy people who don't have respect for nature or for anyone else enjoy nature. They leave their fucking beer cans and mountain dew bottles and candy bar hostess rappers out in the woods like a dumb fucking rednecks. They are and they give my state of Idaho in rural states. Like my state of bad naming a bad reputation now. led a lot of people in more urban parts. America to believe there were all just a bunch of dumb. Don't give a fuck rednecks so my personal experience leads me to you know to want you know. Local lands to be put in federal hands Your experience I do understand may lead you to a different conclusion. Although there were threats of violence with the sagebrush rebellion between militias and government agencies such as the NE never occurred a number of bills were considered in Nevada Utah Wyoming Alaska Oregon Arizona demands a transfer of federal lands to the States. But nothing came of it and then. Reagan was elected over. Jimmy Carter Reagan slowed down. How much land was being seated over to the federal government for federal oversight and the rebellion. Just Kinda died down But this federal land grab Will fuel future militia members to further despise the federal government by taking all our stuff. You know Probably going to be some. You know a new world order playground for the rich buddy someday. Nineteen eighty-three Posse comitatus member. Gordon call murders to federal marshalls trying to arrest him in North Dakota. He's later killed in a shootout during which he kills a sheriff and he is viewed as a martyr for the American militia costs. The militia continues to grow now throughout the eighties on September. Eleventh Nineteen Ninety President. George H W Bush really fuels the militia movement when he references quote. A new world order popularizing. A phrase conspiracy theorists equate with the coming of global -Tarian government. Bush said this before a joint session of Congress during the Persian Gulf crisis. He said it shortly after meeting. With Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev he used the term to trying to find the nature of the Post. Cold War era and the spirit of cooperation between the US and Soviet Union. The he had been hoping would materialize. He said during the same speech a hundred generations have searched for this elusive past apiece while a thousand wars rain across the span of human endeavor. Today that new world is struggling to be born world quite different from the one. We've known I wish I was Dana. Carvey right now can do a spot on H.W. Bush impression he was pushing for international peace. He said Of these troubled times our fifth objective a new world order emerged a new era freer from the threat of terror stronger in the pursuit of justice and more secure in the quest for pace he also said in the same speech. There is no substitute for American leadership. In this new world order a full force of his speech. The context was lost as it often. Almost always is with extremists. They just heard the new world order and then they shut their fucking ears Wire extremists so extremely unreasonable. Extremists took Bush's speech. A speech. I think is one of the best political speeches. The last forty years. They took it as a declaration of war they thought that Bush had sold out the US to the UN to the luminosity. Here we go guys fucking happen in Lumina time more than a few people like randy weaver now moving out of the cities and towns into their woodland hideaways and doomsday bunkers. Getting Ready to go full red. Don Waller I in August Thirtieth Nineteen ninety-two Randy Weaver surrenders after his wife son. Us Marshal killed during a standoff at his cabin Ruby Rich. This event really energizes the Patriot Movement Which includes our militias. It cements the view of the US. Government as an evil empire doesn't give a fuck about the citizens right. Timothy McVeigh. He gets real worked up about it. April Nineteenth nineteen ninety-three federal firearms agents. You know The attempt to raid the compound in Waco Texas Timothy McVeigh visited Waco during the standoff. Shortly before the compound burn this really pisses him off. Nineteen ninety-four responding to the Brady. Bill is mandatory five day waiting period for Handgun Sales Michigan militia leader. Norman Olson tells the New York Times we are ceasing to be a republic when people sense danger. They will come together to defend themselves. That is what's happening opposing a five day. Waiting period to make sure violent felons dishonorably discharged bets people who have renounced citizenship people who have been committed to mental asylums. Making sure they aren't quickly able to purchase a handgun. Doesn't sound insanely unreasonable to me. But it did too many militia members who say this bill. was not commonsense protection but a step towards completely stripping citizens of the right to bear arms. I always go right to the extreme every time anything happens at all you know if someone's like hey. I just wonder if we should really try to enforce background checks mentally ill violent felons. No they go from zero to one thousand nine hundred ninety five Oklahoma City bombing kills one hundred sixty eight people. We'll talk much more about this your shortly. This event initially fuels the militia movement extremely in America but then over the next decade thanks to the government not collapsing due to the Y. Two K. Scare two thousand thanks to a gun rights not being taken away after this. Thanks Timber Eleventh attacks. Two thousand one that shift focus from worrying about the US government to worrying about al Qaeda and the Taliban the militia movement dwindles within a decade the number of militia groups dropped four hundred forty one to thirty five in August two thousand four the American militia movement seizes memberships start to climb up again with the beginning of the Minuteman project. The minimum project was vigilante group founded to monitor the US Mexico border bands of heavily armed self appointed border guards known as minimum the subject of the minute man or man could have it can be its own suck right. There were several controversial instance. Inter internal strife led to the disbanding of these groups following the election of President Barack Obama of the number of militia groups surges from forty to one hundred twenty seven and one year due to a paranoid irrational fear. That Obama is secretly in Islamic terrorists. Hell bent on disarming America. He was not in his first term. This is going back to two thousand eight as first term. Obama did not push for gun control measures after the fatal mass shootings at Fort Hood Texas Aurora Colorado Movie Theater Tucson Arizona Supermarket. We continue to keep quiet on gun control in two thousand twelve presidential campaign as well in his second term January. Two Thousand Thirteen Obama did propose a long list of measures including bandsaw weapons and armor piercing bullets and a limit on the size of magazines but Congress did not pass it checks and balances he did issue a number of executive actions but they were focused on enforcing background checks. Not taking away guns strangely Trump is actually accomplished more than Obama when it comes to taking away gun rights trump band bump stocks wien executive action. Bump stocks. Like the one used by Stephen Paddock to murder. Fifty eight people injured hundreds more at Las Vegas music festival in two thousand seventeen two thousand nine. The Department of Homeland Security Warns of an increase in militia extremism. That year Montana. Attorney and army veteran Stewart Rhodes launches the oath keepers a militia group that focuses on recruiting military members police officers and first responders who call themselves the Guardians of the republic which is a lot like the The guardians of the galaxy but like but not as nice one to watch According to their page oath keepers is a nonpartisan Association of current and formerly serving military police and first responders who pledged to fill the oath all military and police take to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign domestic that oath mandated by article. Six the constitution self is to the constitution not to the politicians and oath keepers declared that they will not obey unconstitutional orders such as orders to disarm the American people to conduct to conduct warrantless searches or to detain Americans as enemy combatants in violation of their ancient right to jury trial and they claim tens of thousands of members in two thousand fourteen after the Bureau of land management confiscates his cattle because of more than a million dollars in unpaid grazing fees cliven. Bundy launches an armed face off with authorities as Nevada ranch. Bundy made numerous insanely racist statements to the press Also said the. Us government was a foreign government. Said he didn't care whatsoever about federal laws his own state. Senator Harry. Reid called him a fake Patriot and a domestic terrorist. But in the end he got away with define the federal government Due to some federal agents boxing some protocols when they seized his cattle hundreds of militiamen responded to Bundy's call for support and some did get jail time for their involvement There's a lot more that could be. Its own suck one day But after a while after we ridge this topic I I need a mental vacation from this part of history Two Thousand fifteen armed keepers patrol the streets of Ferguson Missouri during black lives matter protests claiming. They're protecting journalists and private property Further association associated militias with White Supremacist. So unfortunate Why do most militia members have to look like Well like like me like why. Can't there be a Hispanic militia or an African American militia. Thinking about that makes me realize how much racism still exists here in America. I mean just thinking about that. Think about the kind of news coverage Hispanic militia or a black militia would get compared to a white militia think about a bunch of dudes bunch of white dudes with. Ar Fifteen Saint Fuck you to the federal government to follow your loss versus a bunch of black kids with air fifteen in the woods saying fuck you to the federal government. I don't fall your loss very different news coverage Thinking about that makes me sad. Actually bums me out. How much skin. Color still matters. People we gotta get past that. Shit come on METEX. Young meets acts. Don't fall for the racial bullshit members of my generation of fallen for even more members in my father's generation and a lot more members GRANDPA's generation. Don't fall for that mental trap. Nonsense skin color only matters truly to the ignorant right different shade at the same meet sack. Come on he'll number also in two thousand fifteen estimated that there are two hundred seventy six active militias in America. So it's picked up quite a bit again. Two Thousand Sixteen Nevada Rancher Cliven Bundy his son ammon found citizens for constitutional freedom and leads the occupant occupation of an Oregon wildlife refuge after two ranchers were sent to prison for setting fire to public lands. The standoff end shortly after officers. Shoot an occupier who drove through a roadblock This Amadou Interesting Dude. Huge figure in the American militia. Fuck you federal government movement. This modern cowboy beats the feds at his trial again after a second standoff with them he beat them You Know First. Time with dad hero to the movement But then after the second interaction this confrontation his devout Mormon was criticized by his church. A church leadership told him. There was no scriptural basis for his arm. Standoffs and after considering that He distanced himself from the American movement. He put his faith. I then went on later to criticize. Trump's handling of immigrants and the US Mexico border not typical for a militia movement. Member saying to group them all up like frankly. Our President has done trying to speak respectfully but he has basically called them all criminals instead. They're not coming in here. What about individuals see? There's that fucking libertarian. Yup I says what about individuals? Those who've come for reasons of need for their families. You know the fathers and mothers and children that come here and we're willing to go through the process to apply for asylum so they can come into this country and benefit from not having to be oppressed continually he also publicly claimed nationalism does not equal patriotism and you compared the modern day. Us To nineteen thirties. Nazi Germany interesting. Doot not afraid to stand up for his beliefs not afraid to stand up to the federal government in a variety of ways when he thinks Iraq. That is a true libertarian. Finally in two thousand nine hundred the FBI call some of these Patriot militia group members and organizations H E HVAC or homegrown. Violent extremists Other domestic terrorists or domestic violent extremists in a statement before the House Homeland Security Committee on. May Eight th two thousand. Nineteen Assistant Director for Counterterrorism Division of the FBI. Michalski mcgarity says we believe domestic terrorists pose a present and persistent threat violence and economic harm the United States. In fact there have been more arrests and deaths caused by domestic terrorists than international terrorists. In recent years we are most concerned about lone offenders primarily primarily using firearms as these lone offenders represent the dominant trend for lethal domestic terrorists frequently these individuals act without a clear group affiliation or guidance making them challenging to identify investigate and disrupt. It's almost like he's talked about. Mcvay here are radicalization to violence of domestic. Terrorists is increasingly taking place online where violent extremists can use social media for the distribution of propaganda recruitment targets election and incitement to violence. Alex Jones is looking at you Through the Internet violent extremists around the world have access to our local communities to target and recruit and spread their message of hate on a global scale so that is a brief overview militia movement in America. Which is alive and well and typically in very unfortunately oftentimes racism paranoid bummer. I still like the theoretical concept of militia keeping our government in check. I really just don't like most of the current members and that takes us out of today's time suck timeline good job soldier. You've made back then are now. Let's go back to McVeigh's era while drawing strength from often out of context words of the founders of the Bible the growing militiamen of the nineties. The the o'casey bombers were were inspired much more importantly by more modern book of fiction called the Turner. Diaries the Turner. Diaries was McVeigh's True Bible of very important part of his story. He was like this. This was the most important book on Earth. Timothy McVeigh the Turner. Diaries is a novel. By William Luther Pierce written under the pseudonym Andrew McDonald published I in nineteen. Seventy eight is an apocalyptic tale of genocide against racial minorities set in a near future America The Turner. Diaries has referred to by many as the Bible of the racist right. A handbook for white victory and a blueprint for revolution Also considered a blueprint for McVeigh's Oklahoma City attack it depicts a violent revolution in the US which leads to overthrow the federal government nuclear war ultimately a race war leading to the systematic extermination of non whites. So you know teensy-weensy bit super racist all groups opposed by the novel's Protagonist Earl Turner including Jews. Non Whites Liberal actors and politicians are exterminated by. It's fucked liberals fucking Hollywood elites rights. Were kill them all. Everybody's not everybody who's not a fucking white good. Oh boy are going down author. Pierce was a super nice guy who divided his time between volunteering local boys and Girls Club in raising his five mixed race adopted children right He was the aggressively racist head of the National Alliance Neo. Nazi group and the novel first appeared in serial form in that alliances publication attack. Jesus Christ Pierce Pierce. Also briefly taught physics at Oregon State University for while I'm guessing. He kept his super racist views hidden. I I'd love to teach the White Youth of this country physics. What was that? What was that Mr Pierce? I said I love to teach today's white young men and women. Physics physics has a lot to do with power. What Power Pierce a follower of George Lincoln Rockwell the founder of the American Nazi Party He was a piece of Shit and Peres book. The Turner Diaries has been credited with influencing the terrorist and criminal activities of groups. Individuals like the order. Most notably McVeigh. The novel is written in the form of the diaries of a one time. Electrical Engineer Earl Turner supposedly unearthed near Revolutionary Headquarters in the one hundred year of the new era in the forward. Turner is described as one of the men and women who struggle and sacrifice saved our race in his time of greatest peril. The diaries ascribe society that's completely deteriorated because the powerlessness of the white citizens. As well as Turner's patriotic fight to take the country back from government dominated by Jews African Americans and other minorities turn it begins rank and file member of a group called the organization and is later invited to join a secret elite faction called the order which wages a war of political terrorism against the system the US government these acts of terrorism are designed to instigate a further crackdown on basic freedoms thus created an even more repressive environments so that the organization will gain sympathy and conference Turner's Adventures Begin September Sixteenth. Nineteen ninety-one about in two years after the Tories gun raids which the government to the enforcement of the Cohen. Act CO in a very common Jewish name. By the way confiscates everyone's guns registers are forced underground or no resistance or forced underground but key members calling legals or called legals remain function in society and gathering information to fund its operations the organization commits only socially conscious crimes crimes against Jews or other minorities. Jesus Christ Turner's unit is assigned a large undertaking. This system begins issuing passports to all citizens to thwart the systems plans. The unit blows up headquarters in Washington. Dc with a truck bomb He truck bomb early similar to the one. Mcvay would use Oklahoma City The the book damn near Accurately explains how to build your own bomb in the book to blast kills approximately seven hundred people and because damage done to the FBI's infrastructure This causes a temporary halt in the issuing of passports although he regrets the loss of innocent life tournaments that there is no other way to destroy the system. Eventually the organization takes over much of the West course by force after its initial explosion sets off the revolution those who survive then subjugate or subjected to the quote day of the rope unique in which African Americans as well as whites characterizes having betrayed their race or all hanged Jesus turns last entry records his acceptance of a suicide mission in which he will blow up the Pentagon with a nuclear weapon and a lot of people have died due to influences. Book has had on them on these fucking lunatics book is believed to have inspired white supremacist crimes in the US and abroad including the crimes of Burford of Buford furrow. That dude is I think he was born to be white supremacist beef Buford Furio is. Don't care for choosing into cover folk This guy wounded five people three of them children in one thousand nine hundred nine attack on a Jewish community center in Los Angeles. He also kill kill the Filipino postal worker. He later remarked that his actions were a quote wakeup call to America to kill Jews in addition during the Nineteen Ninety. Eight rampage that killed. James Bird Jr. One of the most vicious hate crimes in Texas History John William King declared. We're going to start the Turner. Diaries earlier imagined said just like that. We're going to start. Oh Turner bowers in London. David Copeland killed three people wounded one hundred thirty nine others in the nineteen ninety nine so bomb pub bombings. He was also believed to have been heavily influenced by the same novel. Numerous other nut jobs have been influenced by this insane book that has sold well over half a million copies since its initial publication and Timothy McVeigh fucking loved at arguably his fate arguably. It was his favorite book. So there's not like a quote we took with everywhere he pushed on everybody all the time. You can still buy it on Amazon before we look at Timothy and his His anti-government besties. Let's check in with this books. Amazon reviews for today's Super Racist Idiots of the Internet via Internet. Curly on Amazon. The book has a three point. Seven out of five star rating based on nearly five hundred ratings. Gerald Fleming gives the book five stars with the subject line of ahead of its time and then this complete moron writes it. The event of this book. I feel like I should read this in this kind of voice. It Book Push for about thirty years. This book re Lock Prophecy. I suggest everyone who large America regardless of color. Read this book to get inside into lies ahead. Who's behind it. And why I love how he writes regardless of color. What the fuck are you talking about? Imagine recommending this book to anyone. Who's not white? Hi John You got. Read this book my entire diaries. Host Shit Man. There's some listen. There's some rough sections like like the hero of distort really Heightened black people and there's a huge section where a lot of black people kilowatt supremacism and hanged and stuff you know but but as a black man if you can get past that I I think I think he really. I think it's a real important piece of literature. A lot of power review or LISA. Carlton doesn't give a fuck who knows. She's incredibly racist. Giving the book five stars and leaving a subject line of love it and then she writes very entertaining fun read. The day of the rope is coming. Gee that's I looked at Lisa's rating history. And she's only given one star review to one product on Amazon. That was a banjo. Strap she said left. Welt on her neck ten minutes after start plugging. Sorta got wonder what Song. She's working on the delivers thing. Protecting Dunk tank. Don't don't pertain dunk tank. Don't thank don't Hang Bank dunk tank. Tom Thank thank thank. You don't think too sweetie. Could she be anymore? Stereotypically redneck sewers. Loves the page. Oh she's not. She's not getting in the Air Banjo Academy she'd you're out. You're out listen Lisa. You're blacklisted. Which you know probably as an extra inflammatory term for you at least a Carlson you do not get to join the a whole era. Banjo Academy okay. You can also get the audio version this book and complete and Total Psychopath username. Captain of the Mighty River loves it giving it five stars with the sign of Great and then he writes ten hours of nonstop action love. It listened to it. All the time have read the book. Additionally over forty five times put this insane fucking awash list Jesus. Christ there's about two hundred five star reviews that reads something along lines. Oh excellent I love it. Hey how Ya Shabelle Power It's disturbing very disturbing. Never funny. But then Jack Killer or killers kill offs kilos. Whatever Jack Jack's Five-star Review made me laugh out loud It doesn't seem to know how reviews work. This guy left a five star review with the subject line of over the top hardcore racial violence and then he wrote the book. Read like many post apocalyptic novels the addition of white supremacy as the core value of the survivors although full of action and somewhat entertaining. I realize that though I am what I would have been amongst those strung up for racial mixing. It is thoroughly racist screed with elements of truth but very little reality and compassion. He gave it five stars. What are You Doing Jack? You're disgusted by. It's over the top hardcore racial violence. You realize that you'd be killed for not being racist enough is the book was real only found it somewhat entertaining yet you give it the highest possible rating. You're like the opposite of the long running three to five job here on a three to five stars joke time suck when someone loves something. Wouldn't change thing but gives it three to five stars. You're the opposite of that. Hate it disgusted rights of Baal. It's truly disturbing other trash. I I wouldn't fuck and use it to out of my Dass with disgust me so much. Can I recommend enough five out five stars idiot? Okay so now thinks pickup right now. Now you've got to give a lot of context regarding the world. Timothy McVeigh and his conspirators. Were living in when they hatch their their plan to bomb. The Alfred P Murrah building in Oklahoma City to lash out of the federal government. They felt become an enemy of true American patriots. Snell's meet McVeigh Terry Nichols Michael. Joseph forty-eight the three men charged connection with the bombings before launching into a second time. Line the takes up to and through the actual bombing but first a word from today's sponsors time suck is brought to you today. By the great courses plus Hale Nimrod just experienced an impeachment trial but. This isn't the first time that's happened in. 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The case unfolds like a fictional story filled with backstabbing acts of violence twists and turns and cult of personalities. And it's one of the many many many great lessons available at the Great Courses. Plus so get your learn on sign up for the great courses plus today time suckers get a free trial of unlimited access to the entire Courses Library. Sign up today using my special url to take advantage of this offer. Start Your free trial at the great courses plus dot com slash time suck. That's the great courses plus dot com slash time suck all right now Thank you for listening to sponsor now. Mcveigh Timothy McVeigh was born on April. Twenty three thousand nine hundred sixty eight in Lockport New York twenty thousand people just outside of Buffalo not far from Niagara Falls. Timmy was a second of three children of Irish Americans. William and Mildred Mickey mcvay and Lockport only son is parents. Troubled marriage ended in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. When McVeigh was ten and from that point on he lived mostly with his dad and Pendleton New York. Just a few miles lockport. Only twenty three miles north of by the time is Mama family. Mcvay had already developed a fascination with weapons. His grandfather had taught him all about using guns in about these right to own guns From a very young age shoot together. The small boy would absorb GRANDPA's knowledge. Tim Love Guts. He told people. WanNa be gun shop owner. He sometimes took his firearms school to impress his classmates. And by the way that doesn't make him a school shooter type at this point is like back back in the eighties. Kids did take gun school at the time and a lot of places as crazed may sound to some you now when I was in junior high ninety nine riggins Idaho. I remember high school. Kids bringing the rifles to school. Loaded rifles on the gun. Racks trucks are junior high was attached to the high school. Kids will go hunting after school and no one thought anything of You know kids bringing guns to school grounds. I was never worried about getting shot up if one kid would have started shooting You know anyone Some school price. Some other people shot him or teacher. I I would bet that some of our teachers had guns their desks or at least in their trucks or cars I'm pretty sure you could still bring guns to school when I graduated ninety five. And this is one reason not anti-gun kissing the eighty s and ninety s kids prior to that had had the same access to guns if not more access to guns kids have had in the last thirty years and no one was going. Columbine crazy. Why is that? No one's worried about malls movie theaters shooters but the guns were there. That tells me that the problem is a lot deeper than than what weapons are available because that variable hasn't significantly changed our culture. Has I don't remember literally any my friends growing up talking about wanting to be famous but my kids friends lot of them. Talk about wanting to be famous. You want to be youtube or snapchat or tick talker. Instagram famous is that the problem. You know people want to shortcut to fame people using murder as a way to gain notoriety name out or mass shootings problem of ideology more than a problem with firepower. I think it's definitely something worth talking a lot. More about. Four years after his mom left in one thousand nine hundred mcvay began stockpiling food and camping equipment in preparation for a nuclear attack or Communist. Overthrow the government Okay so interesting interesting. We spend your youth Red Dawn. Didn't come out for two more years. He was ahead of his time. She's if you're actively preparing for nuclear attack or overthrow the government. Yeah I get some. Counseling McVeigh got picked on at school. A lot around this time grew to hate billy's As a tall lanky kid he was called Noodle Noodle McVeigh near the end of his life he would stays at the United States. Government was the ultimate bully not a good psychological profile. The angry paranoid. You Know Kid Probably a loner not socially adept obsessed with guns. The man who is like being told what to do. Because you've been told to do reminds a you know him of Of being bullied back when he was noodle mcvay someone can only go back in time and give noodle hug or I Dunno killing one of the things I don't know Most who knew McVeigh. Remember him as being very shy and withdrawn few described him as an A few also described him as an outgoing and playful child. Early on who then withdrew as an adolescent wants to bullying began. Madge if you're one of the kids who bullied mcvay by the way agency noodle pop up on the news as the man responsible I mean. Do you feel a little bad for helping. Send him down that lonely bomber path little interior monologue of like fuck. Guess I guess I gave noodle one too. Many atomic wedgies would vote unknown noodle head that I wouldn't have snapped him in the deck with wet rolled towels locker room mcvay performed well on standardized tests and high school and didn't miss a single day. Struck classmates is somewhat introverted and disengaged and is only extra curricular activities track. He also became interested in computers. Reportedly hacked into government computing systems as. He says it said on his Commodore Sixty four under the handle the wanderer. That was just a fantasy man. Commodore Sixty Four Holy Shit. I'd the same computer and I wanted to figure out how to hack. So bad. Idaho Plan GonNa take a penny a day from all the bank accounts and ribbons and put those into my bank account. And no whatever figure it out and I'll be so rich. Wasn't great plan. There wasn't many people take pennies from I was only living twelve over that plan. I think he'd war games with Matthew Broderick Where he plays a hacker and came up with the whole scheme trouble was. I didn't have a q link right. Killing was a predecessor to America. Online old school internet like Super Old School early. Dial ups yet. Daime Reagan's you're limited. Technology could be in prison right now for hacking something if you just have the Internet senior. Year McVeigh apparently was named Star. Point Central High School's most promising computer programmer. If only he would've stayed on that path. Maybe could've just ended up as an outright troll in the web instead of murderer While he went to school every day and was by all accounts smart he also got poor grades all the way through graduation. He didn't he didn't care and no one home was holding them accountable and parents make sure cares about school. Fucking hate it when our parents I don't care if their kids like not doing well in school. Whatever will you you try already. Fuck son of a bitch My daughter Monroe got so frustrated. Their math homework yesterday. She broke down and cried. Filled me with pride and joy seriously. I hugged her. I told her how much I loved how much she cared about doing. A good job and how she always cared that much she'd be all right. In life under the entry future plans is high school yearbook McVeigh wrote. Take it as it comes by Lamborghini. California gurls bro Guessing waves on some TAN LINE BLOSSOM HAGAR and burn up that pace the fuck here bro. Despite his reference to California Gurls mcvay seemed uncomfortable around women very uncomfortable. He actually never had a girlfriend some sources report. He may have briefly kind of had one. But it's very likely that he remained a virgin throughout his entire life. Yikes the troubled virgin loaner. Never a good look. I seriously wonder how many crimes could have been avoided drawing history. If the perpetrator those crimes would adjust discover the joys of Pussy and I know that's a crude way of putting it was true good policy or if you've any other way some good dick man cures ails. My wife and I work at work at time. Travel Lot. Were busy with kids will be cranky snapping with each other and they'll have sex and we'll be all right again. Christian marriage class professor who was awesome years ago back at Gonzaga. I love this lady. She talked about how important sex was for mental health within a relationship all the time that skin on skin carnal connection. Let Loose Safina. He'll you weird loners. Let her grind the anger out of your heart leave sweaty and sleepy and not as angry Halo Safina. The right sexy lady would come along and kept him busy chasing her or not fuming over the government I seriously doubt he whatever whatever. Put those bombs in a truck on the two years following high school graduation mcvay briefly attended Brighton. Stand College in Buffalo. With an interesting computers then took on a series of short term jobs ranging from gun salesman in a sporting goods store to a security guard. His love affair with guns continued intensified. Read tons of pro gun material including soldier of Fortune magazine. It was noted by co workers to be especially obsessed with guns to saint a lot when you're working with people. Sporting goods store sales us one. Coworker recalled an instance when mcvay came to work. Quote looking like Pancho via wearing bandoliers shoulder belt loops pockets for cartridges. Really not a good look now weird virgin loaner fucking super into guns that kind of do all of you put on a watch list in. May Nineteen Eighty eight at the age of Twenty Noodle Mc Dry Wean enlists in the US army. You sent to Fort Benning Georgia infantry school. One of the biggest reasons. Tim Join the Armed Forces would admittedly to get a handle on new weapons. Plus he said the ammunition was free in basic training. The loaner right. Mcveigh found a friend in his platoon leader. Terry Nichols who shared his paranoid political views. One the military. He continued to read about firearms sniper tactics explosives despite getting good with weapons. He was definitely not a good soldier. Not a model soldier anyway. In some ways he was good. Good in other ways. Mcveigh was once reprimanded by the military for purchasing white power t shirt and a KLAN RALLY. Protesting black servicemen. Who Wore black power t-shirts and I know there's the argument of well if it's okay to wear black power t-shirt wisn okay. Where white power t-shirt I used to think the same thing now I don't here's why and word history there is not a long standing and deeply entrenched history of black Americans being harassed beaten and slave discriminated against lynched etc at the hands of wipe power. Yeah there is Excuse me there is a longstanding. Sorry but we're not in there. There is a long standing history of black Americans being harassed wherever there is not a deep history of whites being treated the same way for the same reasons right not saying white. Americans have been racially discriminated against by black-americans. Of course that's happened. Racism flows out from every color in every direction. It's not a white disease but again the history so very different in America. And they didn't do it because he's making some kind of social equality point you did it 'cause he was a fucking asshole and racist this dude who loved the Turner. Diaries mcvay seemed to fit in well. Overall with a structured life the military top-scoring gunner with twenty five millimeter. Canon of the Bradley Fighting Vehicles used by his first infantry division he was eventually promoted to sergeant became an excellent marksman also avid racist racial bias often within the military he earned reputation for signing undesirable work to black servicemen every quarterly frequently. Use Racial slurs around them. He served in Fort Riley Kansas later for four months in the Persian Gulf War where he drove Bradley Fighting Vehicle and earned the bronze star it was during his trip to the Middle East. Where he said he got a distaste for government later. He also said that he decapitated in Iraqi soldier with cannon fire on his first in the war and really celebrated Not Not sure how I'm supposed to feel about his reaction to the decapitation there. I mean on the one hand you are there to kill. Anybody sold her. So you know you've done your job on the other hand. It seems a little weird like fuck. Yeah Blue fucking head off. But I don't know but maybe that's how you're supposed to react. I mean that's how I'd I don't have the necessary life experienced understand. A McVeigh said later. He was shocked to be ordered to execute surrounding prisoners and to see carnage on the road leading Kuwait City after. Us troops routed the Iraqi army. He also let it regretted his letter. He let my God. He later regretted. My brain wanted to mix those words so bad his actions as US soldier. So maybe he wasn't quite so excited to blow. Peoples Heads Office. The conflict dragged on. He did appear to do a great job in battle. Despite his brief combat mission he received several service awards including the Bronze Star Medal National Defense Service Medal Southwest Asia Service Medal. Army Service Ribbon and the Kuwaiti Liberation Medal And he must not have gotten to disillusioned with the US military at least not right away. 'cause you also try to join the? Us Special Forces you want to become a green beret. Be One of the best of the best but just two days into some type of twenty one day try program. He reportedly washed out was humiliated. And then just a few months later he requested and received an honorable discharge in December of ninety one noodle MC dry wing out following his discharge noodle return upstate New York where he works security jobs experienced serious. Depression began spousing increasingly angry views of US. Foreign Policy Gun control. And what he believed were conspiracies involving the United Nations is picturing like angry fucking dude. You know Lena couch worried about rents watching too much news being fuck. I told you there. Say That's what I'm talking about Special Forces. It didn't work out for him. And now mic dry wings gone full radical March nineteen ninety-two in a letter to the lockport union. Sun mcvay writes taxes are a joke. Regardless of what political candidate promises they will increase more taxes are always the answer to government mismanagement. They mess up. We suffer taxes reaching cataclysmic levels with no slowdown in sight is a civil war. Imminent DO WE HAVE TO. Shed blood to reform the current system. I hope it doesn't come to that but it might now. This statement sent me into a worm. Oh into a research wormhole trying to figure out. If McVeigh was right the stuff just kept getting bigger and bigger for me. Was the government constantly asking for more in taxes. When he was alive do taxes keep increasing all the time in America? Well the short answer surprised me. The short answer is no taxes. Do not keep going up Trying to thoroughly explain how tax rates have changed over. The years would require entire suck. And it'll be very hard to make entertaining But I found out that Americans aren't taxed nearly as much as we were currently as we were during the Great Depression World War. Two the top income earners during the final years of World War. Two and one thousand four hundred forty five. This is unbelievable. We're taxed an astronomical federal income tax rate of ninety four percent ninety four percent. You heard that right now. That doesn't actually mean that ninety. Four percent of their income went to the government because of a really hard to explain. Progressive Income Tax rate system. Were like The first X. Amount of dollars you earn is taxed at the lowest rate the lowest bracket and then the next x amount of dollars. You know you make tax at the next slightly higher bracket and so on and so forth until you then have made over two hundred thousand dollars in the ninety four percent of the money after you know you take deductions other fancy maneuvers over. Two hundred thousand within that goes to the government the time justified by the war effort so Looking a little further. It seems that you know. The real percentage people paid in the highest income tax bracket was fifty percent not over ninety percent but still quite a bit higher than today today. The current highest tax rate is thirty seven percent since the Clinton years the highest tax rate has consistently hovered in that thirty five to forty percent range and again this is the highest tax bracket for the top or any American so that's for individuals making over five hundred ten thousand couples earning more than six hundred twelve thousand that's after deductions and everything of a single person. Who's making between eighty? Four thousand one hundred sixty thousand a year or couples making between one hundred sixty eight and three hundred twenty one k year your tax rate of twenty four percent you make less than ten thousand a year ten percent Also Americans remain amongst the least tax citizens of advanced industrial nations in the world with twenty eight percent of gross domestic product taking taxes versus an average of thirty six percent for the thirty eight member countries of the organized or of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and development the OECD so actually during McVeigh's life. You know it wasn't like Increasing exponentially actually during his life federal taxes had dropped substantially president. Reagan took the top tax rate below seventy percent for the first time since World War. Two when he took office in Nineteen eighty-one it was still fifty percents during his tenure and then by the time. Mcveigh wrote his letter Federal income taxes had bumped down further in the top bracket to percentage of forty percent. Now that doesn't count for loopholes deductions state income taxes all sorts of other kind of tax. I'm not trying to turn this into a giant Taxon and I didn't include all the lower tax brackets for your comparison. I just was surprised to find out that. In general we are not drowning in taxes. Compared to years past even less popular narrative comes to taxes. Were not getting taxed. More than Americans were in the fifties or sixties being taxed less and I gotta say I feel Kinda stupid just learning this now. I run my mouth complaining about both taxes many times over my life. I LIKE TO BITCH ABOUT TAXES. Just like imagine you do. Every generation seems to think that we have it harder than the in the good old days the previous generation including me me and my generate. You know I I. I do still think we could do away with a reduced certain tax on Small Business Owners. You know Lower income earners but turns out. Uncle Sam is is now fucking a harder and harder each year as fun as yell about turns out he's maybe using a little more lube. Then he used in previous years when we bend over asked us. If we're ready now gives us a chance to exhale and wait for it. Salah Story mcvay didn't know what the fuck he was talking about around. The time McVeigh wrote his threatening letter to the government which reminds me of the letters. The weavers used to write to the government. He also started telling friends that he thought the government had planted a microchip in his but to track his movements right. The government is tracking the movements of Old Noodle. Mc Dry Wing. Because he's a fucking top priority. They had to know what this consistent quitter in guy who worked part time was up to find out what the dude quit going to school had given up on the military when he didn't become a green beret. GotTa gotTa keep their eyes on that guy. Twenty how most of the people worried about the government or not worthy of being watched but it is too bad. The government didn't You know Actually Watch mcvay you know. Because if they had watched him later or people would be alive. Now McVeigh grew angrier. During this period he continued to have no luck with women despite awkward efforts and then he got into gambling sweet. He became obsessed with gambling for a while which was unfortunate because he was shitty at it. You've got to keep telling HIMSELF THAT IN THE END. The House always wins. You've got to remind himself that. All those big ASS. Casinos were not built on people making money unable to pay back gambling debts. He took a cash advance. Then defaulted on his repayments then he became enraged a little salt on the wound when the government told him that he'd been overpaid a thousand fifty eight dollars while in the army and then he had to pay back that money. He wrote an angry angry letter to the government that at one point said go ahead take everything I own. Take my dignity. Feel good as you grow fat. Richard my expense suck in my tax dollars in property. Didn't have any property. That's out little little asterix there you you didn't have anything And you and you really weren't paying taxes because you really won't work much. So how would he be that angry if he had lost his Shit gambling? I doubt it sucks about the check but Uncle Sam wasn't sitting next him with the fucking blackjack table tell him to hit again on. Fourteen noodle MC driving began thinking more seriously violent action against the federal government August nineteen ninety-two following news of the federal government shootout right with survivalist randy. Weaver Idaho Woods his mind. The tyranny of the new world order is increasing early nineteen ninety-three mcvay moves out of his dad's New York home begins rootless road life that includes seven weapons of gun shows often using tim tuttle as his business name wonder why he didn't go with noodle. Mc Dry wing who would want to buy some guns from the noodle while gun shows where a place where good law Biden folks go and purchase weapons. It was also a hotbed for extremist literature and Lunatics. Mcvay never did become a full on militia member but he rubbed shoulders with many of them shared their beliefs including their extreme anti-government beliefs while on the road a noodle spent time at Nichols family farm in Michigan He'd also taken on temporary work kingman Arizona. The home of that other Military Buddy Michael Fortier and Waco happened Tim's radicalization went code red around the time of the US government's assault on the compound right. He was actually there before the government went in. He actually went to Waco to see what was happening and while he was there he sold pro gun rights literature and bumper stickers. That said Shit like when guns are outlawed. I will become an outlaw band. Guns make the streets safer government takeover fear the government fears your guns and pull my trigger ladies my gun is loaded the noodles dine for noodle. Of course it'd be that last night while in Waco he actually told the student reporter. The government is afraid of the guns people have because they have to control the people at all times. Once you take away the guns you can do anything to the people you give them an inch and they take a mile. I believe we are slowly turned into a socialist government. The government is continually growing bigger and more powerful and the people need to prepare to defend themselves against government control. And that sentiment there part of it will resonate with me where it's like yes it is a good idea to To not let the government be able to take things easily from us if they want to but in that whole thing just like with taxes As far as I was turning more and more into a socialist government now there's nothing no real facts support that for five months following the WACO. Siege mcvay works at a gun. Shows HANDS OUT FREE CARDS printed up with Lon Horiuchi Name and address? This is the guy who shot Vicki. Weaver he's handing out cards. Do Address home address cards. Say in the hope that somebody in the Patriot movement will assassinate the sharpshooter. Shit and that guy also lawn was also president the Waco siege and perhaps a responsible for the deaths there as well McVeigh wrote. Hate Mail to Lan suggesting that what goes around comes around mcvay. Later considered putting aside is planned to target the Murrah building and thought about trying to kill members of launch family Orelon himself never shot Lou. He's still alive as far as we know. Sixty five years old not surprised when he can't find out where is guessing. He went into hiding since a lot of he wanted him dead route. You was not the only target of Tim's. Ir He would later say he considered a campaign of individual assassination with eligible targets including attorney general. Janet Reno Judge Walter estimates junior the Federal District Court Which is who is the judge that handled the branch Davidian trial but he felt in SAS nation seemed to difficult and he decided that since federal agents had become soldiers it was necessary to strike against him at one of their command centers. Mcvay continue to move with the gun show circuit during his truck. He would visit forty states and be part of somewhere around eighty gun shows. Mcvay found that the further west. You went the more anti-government sentiment he encountered at least until he got to what he called. The People's Republic of California mcvay also sold copies of the Turner diaries as he traveled One mcvay researcher has said in the gun show culture mcvay found a home though. He remained skeptical of some of the most extreme ideas being bandied about. He likes talking to people there about the United Nations to federal government and possible threats to American liberty. Antibody told a shitload racist jokes. Mcveigh spent most of Nineteen ninety-four in the West especially in Kingman Arizona where he found minimum wage workers as security guard in lumber yard. His behavior moved more and more out of the mainstream and into his own little paranoid world. He had a road atlas where he drew designations for Places most likely to be attacked by nukes. He determined that Seligman Arizona birthplace of route. Sixty six Was the least likely place to be in America. So he so he considered improperly. They're fucking killing the game right when you have life a hundred percent figured out when you're definitely not a just paranoid lunatic when you're basing where you want to live off of where you think is the least likely place to be newt. Tim Live with his former military. Buddy Michael Forty in Kingman Arizona. They got to be closer friends. During this period forty was into drugs and after researching the effects of Of The drugs. Mcveigh experimented with Meth. While it with forty-eight so so wait just an angry sex starve. Anti-government gun dude Doing meth in the desert. No Red flags there for Jay would get heavier into drugs and seem to be consumed by them while. Tim didn't seem to care for them as much This would eventually cause rippling their friendship and will meet forty-eight here in a second before we meet him let's briefly meet another man. Involved in o'casey bombing Terry Nichols born on April Fools Day. Nineteen fifty five Terry Nichols grew up as one of four children of Robert and Joyce Nichols on a family farm in Lapierre Michigan. Little Town of about eight thousand twenty miles east of Flint. A town town mostly known for a bestiality ring that operated out of Lapierre one thousand nine hundred sixty s Michael do pain or if you've heard that name the local hardware store owner who had converted his store's basement into some kind of fucked up. Canine sex dungeon or up to thirty medium to large dogs. Were kept at a time for the sexual gratification of an alarming amount of the town's residents hush money and local political favors would keep the disgusting scandal out of the media and for the most part out of publicly accessible records but it is strongly believed that between twenty to forty local men including the chief city councilman to teachers from local high school. Three members of the local police force Two deacons from local church. We're all paying paying ten dollars a visit to fuck harem sedated. German Shepherds Labrador retrievers rottweilers standard poodles in the hardware store basement videos of these abusive encounters still serves from time to time the dark web. At least that's what Reverend Dr Joe Johnson. As he tells me he says he watches often For for research or something that is not true. Dear God I hope so. Many believe me for second. What A salacious story. That would be if it was true. I just I know it's some you hate it when I tell these lies and tries to him too often by just really want. I just want one person to not be paying attention. Really good during this episode but to hear it all and to mostly come away thinking that the the redcoats were But fucking soldiers and that's what really kicked off the American Revolutionary War and that A Little Michigan town. There was a canine sex ring. Because I'm a maniac okay Lapierre no home to no scandals. I know of Shy Boy in an uninspired student Nichols graduated nineteen seventy-three from the pure high school with a two point six grade point average then a year At Central Michigan University followed where he didn't do well socially or scholastically. The nickel returnable appear to help. Recently divorced family with the family farm. Another dude crushing life moves back home. Lived at Then Nichols Mary's Lana. Walsh Tandy won. The couple has a son the following year so so at least he's not an angry virgin he's at least not noodle. Madrid two point. Oh Nichols paid the bills with a variety of jobs rain you for managing a grain elevator to doing carpentry work selling life insurance and may nine hundred eighty eight at age thirty three Nichols joins the army he meets. Timothy McVeigh basic training at Fort Benning. Their friendship continues to grow as a to serve that together in Fort Riley. Kansas Nichols and McVeigh shared a common hostility. Gun Control Ideas. Common belief in the importance of survival training from when Shit goes down. They're both ready to go full. Wolverine at a moment's notice Nichols also served in the Persian Gulf War and like McVeigh also failed to make the grade in special forces and then resigned for the military in nineteen ninety two years after his wife. Lana files for divorce of the thirty. Five year old Nichols remarries. This time says a lot about him to a seventeen year old marife torres. A woman he met through a mail order Bride Service based in the Philippines classy What an awesome dude. That's when you know that you for sure. Have Your Shit together when you were at the top of the Alpha male mountain when you are fucking socially inept the you can't find a single woman in America to marry so you have to troll international waters looking for some desperate teen hoping to get American citizenship. What a piece of Shit. Thirty five year old dude marrying a seventeen year old mail order bride growth. And if you've done something similar and you feel super judge right now. Good you creepy Weirdo. Marife was six months pregnant with another man's son when she arrived in Michigan. That boy would die on November. Twenty second nineteen ninety-three from accidental suffocation. And then Terry Moran would have two more children. After moving to a farm owned by Terry's brother James Nichols infancy deteriorate accidentally suffocate that baby. Nothing online indicates that. But I wouldn't put anything past that creep by the spring of Nineteen ninety-two Terry Filipino. Teen pushed nichols extremist. Political views led him to renounce his U. S. citizenship in a letter sent to a state agency all FTP wrote. I'm no longer citizen of the corrupt political corporate state of Michigan and the United States of America. He's probably most mad about America's age of consent loss. Probably she was like twelve or something Later that year in a court in court over credit card debt nichols tries to argue that the court lacked jurisdiction over him because he wasn't a citizen Now how that works. Dip Shit if you're gonNA live on this land you have to live on this land fucking laws you creepy deadbeat fucking seventeen year olds at thirty five racking up credit card debt and refused to take responsibility for it. What a true patriot. What a what. An American treasure following his discharge from the army. Ftp spent considerable time with fellow loser. Noodle MC dry wing the to reinforce each other's fucking loser anti-government hatred and they traveled together to gun show at Nichols family. Farm April Nineteenth nineteen ninety-three. The two men watch television together in shared outrage when Waco went up in flames beginning nineteen ninety-four Nichols and McVeigh began implementing plans to blow up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. That's enough on Nichols for now before we jump into that last. Quick low timeline. Let's talk about a third Oklahoma City bombing stooge another super awesome dude with this shit totally figured out another top dog. Top Tier Alpha male killing life Michael Forte Michael Joseph Forte born in May nineteen sixty eight then moved his family to Kingman Arizona when he was seven years old after graduating from kingman. High of forty eight entered the army where he met noodle at Fort. Benning Georgia nineteen eighty eight the company which also included FTP Nichols moved on to Fort Riley. Kansas where four ta serve until his honorable discharge may nine two one nine seventy one for j shared common interests with friends. Mcveigh and Nichols which tells me. He's fucking maniac the all consider themselves marksman and they all had contempt for the federal government at McVeigh's urging forty-eight also read the Turner Diaries and loved it nother awesome guy. Actress STINT SERVICE FORTE. Returned to kingman where he enrolled in. Mohave Community. College work part time in a printing shop. A hardware store. He was known locally. Mostly for participation in Gun Control Protests July twenty fifth. One thousand nine hundred four four married his high school sweetheart. Laurie in Las Vegas Casino Mcveigh had become close with that. He was his best man at the time of McVeigh's trial in one thousand. Nine hundred couple would have two children a four year old daughter in one year old son. The fourteenth as host McVeigh Kingman. Mobile home several times. Ninety three to ninety five Outside the Home Forte flew a flag depicting a coiled snake. Bearing the words. Don't tread on me and it's a cool flag. Why is it always have to be on fucking losers houses? Aren't you ever seen that flag? Like a mansion. I never see that said they nichols forte. Right there all pissed at the system because it wasn't working for them would have given their indignation a little more credence if one of them been doing really well in life but arguably the most successful member of this trio is a meth head. Living in a desert trailer park with his high school sweetheart forte. As we mentioned was a heavy drug user. Got Tim into it to share stories on drug houses laid on their backs and gays and tonight style fucking. Crackdown a meth on other occasions. They vented their anger about gun. Control New World Order ambitious plans of the United Nations. She's in the Arizona. Desert McVeigh Proudly detonated. He's increasingly sophisticated homemade bombs for the entertainment of the forty s meth explosives antigovernment rants under the desert sky of only McVeigh. Been Right about that surveillance ship and his ASS. So these are the stars of today show. The three conspirators Oakland's homeless city bombing. Men who are angry paranoid delusional disillusioned struggling to find their way in life dudes. Who are gambling away. Their money racking up credit card debt. They didn't WanNa pay off and doing meth in the desert. They were champions Now let's march up and on through the April Nineteenth Nineteen ninety-five bombing of a federal government building in downtown Oklahoma City with this week's final. Unfortunately explosive time. Suck Timeline shrimp on those boots soldier. Were marching down a time SUCK TIME LINE. April nineteen ninety three mcvay heads for a farm in Michigan or Terry Nichols lifts. A farm owned by Terry's parents in between watching coverage of the Waco siege on TV Nichols and his brother began. Teaching McVeigh how to make explosives out of readily available materials specifically the combined household chemicals in Plastic Jugs my God. I asked us to try and make bombs to also know shit in the spring of Nineteen ninety-three and same time When I was struggling socially I was an awkward High School Sophomore. Leaving Las Vegas with my dad and step mom stepmom. I hated hated me. I left behind everything I knew. And riggins Idaho went to live with my dad in Vegas. After two years I was angry. Confused left alone with my very antisocial thoughts way too much. I was setting fires and Shit. I had like three friends three kids at school. Who Knew My name? Nobody else knew I was just a weird quiet kid. I was basically a trenchcoat mafia kid. Ninety three me. Identifies with ninety. Three McVeigh Nichols way too much. I wasn't angry government. I I was angry. The whole fucking world and I just wanted to watch burn Had the world fuck over looking back. no no more than the federal government had fucked over. Mcveigh Nichols when you're alone. An angry in the world doesn't make sense. You don't need rational reasons for an enemy. You just need an enemy something to focus your hatred on man. What a terrible head space to be in. Luckily my dad moved back to Riggins I- i- slowly snapped out of Sad that McVeigh Nichols never did. The destruction of the Waco compound enrage again McVeigh convinced him. He was time to take action. He suspected to cover up. He believed feds. It purposely set fire right. He saw disappearance of certain evidence such as bullet riddled steel reinforced front door. Too complex proof of the cover up. He believed the twenty-five Davidians. Were trying to flee when they were gunned down by the final battle Mcveigh's now fully radicalized right. He began to sell Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco firearms explosive hats riddled with bullet holes. He produces his own videos. Detailing the government's actions awake O hands out pamphlets with titles like us. Government initiates open warfare against American people. He begins changing his answering machine greeting every couple of weeks to various quotes by Patrick Henry. Such as give me liberty or give me death. He continues to experiment with pipebombs and other small explosive devices and sadly he's way better making this shit go boom than I ever was February. Twenty Eighth Nineteen ninety-four. The Brady Bill is passed. The act was named after James Brady assisted the president who was shot and wounded by John. Hinckley Jr. during an attempted assassination of Reagan on March Thirtieth Nineteen ninety-one the bill was seen as an affront to gun rights activists everywhere especially mcvay. He believes is threatened. His gun show livelihood. He's furious he stops associate with anybody who doesn't share his views like longtime boyhood friends. Steve Hodge who sent who who he sent the following letter those who betray or subvert the constitution or guilty of sedition and treason are domestic enemies and should and will be punished accordingly. It also stands to reason that anyone who sympathizes with the enemy or give aid or comfort to set enemy is likewise guilty. I have sworn to uphold and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. And I will I will because not only did I swear to but I believe and what it stands for every bit of my heart soul and bean I know in my heart that I am right in my struggle Steve. I've come to peace with myself. My God and my cost blood will flow in the streets. Steve Good Versus Evil Freeman versus socialist. Wannabe slaves prayed. Is Not your blood my friend? Can you find imagine if you got that letter from? What are your friends like some old friends from school? Holy Shit if I was locking my door at ninety four man I am afterwards would not fun to be on. A noodle shitless knows crazy speak to psychological profile whole no stranger to traveling. Tim Embarks on a very strange conspiracy. Fueled road trip now. He visits militia groups in Northern Idaho. Right. His views the remains the Ruby Ridge cabin. He visits area fifty one. Just so we can defy government restrictions on photography there. You don't tell me what your mom. He heads to Gulfport Mississippi to determine the veracity of rumors about United Nations operations. To pose going on there. He'd heard rumors that Russian tanks and troops were stage in there for an all out invasion of the US. This of course not true. The Russian vehicles on cy were being configured for use in UN sponsored humanitarian aid effort. He's completely out of his mind now. He's not a religious extremists. Like the weavers were with Ruby Ridge or corruption his followers in Waco but he is cut from the same cloth. He asserted in apocalypse of sorts is on the horizon. Wars coming the new world order about to attack America. He visits Waco again after the compounds burned. He makes a point to visit the ashes and rubble of what he saw martyrs and his mind. They were peers. When he sees Nichols again he puts his plans of mass murderer into motion in the summer of ninety four because they also compose his two letters to the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. The first is titled Constitutional Defenders and the Second. Atf read in them. He denounced government officials as fascist tyrants in stormtroopers and warns ATF. All you tarantula. People will swing in the wind. One day your treasonous acts against the constitution of the United States. Remember the Nuremberg war trials now in his mind. Atf officers are fucking Nazis. He's living in his own Turner. Diaries influenced reality. He's also writes a letter of recruitment to a man named Steve Coburn. Who was a customer of his from his gun? Show days he writes a man with nothing left to lose a very dangerous man and his enemy. Anger can be focused towards a common righteous goal. What I'm asking you to do than sit back and be honest with yourself. Do you have kids and wife? Would you back out at the last minute to care for your family? Are you interested in keeping your firearm? For the current future monetary value or. Would you dragged at? Oh six threw rocks swamp and CACTUS. That ought six. I think this is kind of weird when you draft. Would you drag out six rock off to get off the needed shop in short? I'm not looking for talkers. On the for fighters and if you are fed think twice think twice about the constitution were supposedly enforcing isn't enforcing freedom and oxymoron and think twice about catches with our guard down. You will lose just like digging. Did and your family will lose Steve Coburn. Ucla UCLA educated chemists or chemist in his mid thirties would later be arrested on both state and federal weapons charges and remote area on a desert today. Steve seems to be a ufo investigator. mostly believes are talks about extraterrestrials putting implants in humans glassy. He's a lot more mentally stable now and I'm not a hundred percent. Sure THAT'S THE SAME STEVE. But the same name looks like the same guy you know. New Steve doesn't mention loose involvement with the okay see bombing in his bio. For for some weird reason September of Nineteen ninety-four Timothy McVeigh Terry Nichols Ramp. Everything up to build a big bomb. They first and foremost need lots and lots of chemical fertilizer same stuff I used to try and build pipebombs out of a back in ninety three using. Aliases they by two thousand pounds of ammonium nitrate in McPherson Kansas. They also obtained detonation cord highly unstable auto racing fuel that will amp up the destructive capabilities of their bomb. September twenty second ninety-four Timothy Rent a storage unit in Herington Kansas. Where he will store many explosives ingredients that October McVeigh and Nichols Steal Explosives from a storage locker in Marion? Kansas transported to another storage locker in kingman Arizona were nichols brother. James Lifts then they buy another two thousand pounds of ammonium nitrate put it in a storage locker in two thousand person off the Grid Town Council Grove. Kansas around this time mcvay shows his buddy four ta how he's going to arrange the explosives in a V shape inside the truck for maximum destruction in November McVeigh Nichols Rob in Arkansas firearms dealer of cash. Weapons ammunition coins precious. Metals and other property nichols places are stolen items in another locker in the same council Grove facility places other items in Las Vegas Nevada locker. Ftp Nichols then leaves for the Philippines. Where his young wife's family lives after having prepared a letter to Madurai Wayne to be delivered? Only in the event of Nichols death in it Nichols tells McVeigh to either empty or extend the lease on the Council Grove Storage Locker containing stolen property by February first and to liquidate the explosives in the other storage locker. Mcveigh's obviously preparing to blow up. Something something Nichols has helped him prepare for something forty as clearly aware of what he still hasn't decided on a target on his list of potential targets government buildings in Little Rock Arkansas Tulsa Oklahoma Dallas Texas. Then he decides Oklahoma City is where he wants to hurt the federal government than most the Murrah building in Oklahoma City House a number of federal agencies including the ATF. Hud Da Secret Service various military recruitment offices. He saw this as a perfect way to enact revenge for what the government especially the ATF. Had Done in Waco December ninety four on the way to Kansas to pick up firearms. Stolen the Arkansas robbery mcvay cases. The Alfred P Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City along with Michael Fortier January nineteen ninety-five Nichols returned from the Philippines. He still has the same wife even though now she's twenty two she super old and barely fuck -able but he stays with for the sake of the kids. I'm adding that because I think he's a creep now because I read that anywhere The Firearm Still Arkansas robbery or sold McVeigh Nichols and Forte Split. The money somewhere around this point. Four learns McVeigh's plans to blow up Federal Building. Adamantly declines to be part of it also tells his wife about the plans and she is not amused bet nut. She didn't agree to bone this dude and have his kids in exchange for citizenship. Just just so. He could then attack the government of the nation. She literally just fucked away and do I bet she was pissed. February ninety five Nichols pays for the continued use of the Council Grove Storage Unit containing the explosives in March mcvay obtained South Dakota's driver's license in the name of Robert Kling. With April nineteenth nineteen. Seventy two is the birthday there. It is again April Nineteenth April fourteenth McVeigh buys a Shitty Nineteen ninety-seven Mercury Marquee in junction city. Kansas not considered a cool car. Then but if you were driving a cherry out one in Brooklyn. Today you'd be super hipster cool. On Easter April sixteenth. He calls the Nichols Resins Little Harrington Kansas from junction city tells him it's fucking go time Mcvay also calls business in junction city using the name Bob Kling inquires about renting a truck that can carry five thousand pounds of cargo. He then rents a motel room. Junction City places deposit for the truck. In the name of Robert Kling April Seventeenth mcvay rents the infamous twenty foot yellow Ryder truck in junction city. The next day the eighteenth bomb Is the bombmaking day at Geary Lake? State Park in. Kansas McVeigh Nichols build a bomb in the cargo compartment of the truck using barrels filled with mixtures of ammonium nitrate fuel and other explosives they'd collected the majority of the work is done by McVeigh. He's proud of this fact. He's proud of his creation. Later Brag that it took him about three hours with little assistance from Nichols apparently nichols frustrated. Mcvay with the case of cold feet and then allegedly mcvay threatened to kill Nichols and his family. If he didn't help them go through with it the next day along with his bomb angry racist. Delusional noodle MC dry wing drives to Oklahoma City and that Ryder truck on April nineteenth noodle parks right outside of the Murrah building in a delivery area. The nine story building opened in nineteen seventy seven named for an Oklahoma native became one of the youngest federal judges and US history when he was appointed by FDR in nineteen thirty six the large building was a US government complex located at two hundred North West Fifth Street downtown Oklahoma City. That is busiest. Two thousand people would be in the building doing a variety of work for the government and the private sector and has approximately five hundred and fifty government employees. There was also tragically daycare called America's kids in the building's basement eight fifty seven. Am Security Camera. Captures an image of a Ryder truck. Being parked outside the building McVeigh getting out witnesses. See him lead the scene. He heads towards an alley behind a nearby where he then jogs to a waiting getaway car. That's missing license plate. He left it there during his last visit. This attack was beyond premeditated on the car's window is a sign that read not abandoned. Please do not toe will move needs. Battering cables nine. Am a water resources. Board meeting begins in a neighboring building. An audiotape will capture the sounds of what will be the largest domestic terrorist attack in the history of the time. The blast occurs just a couple of minutes after the meeting begins. And actually it's still largest domestic attack at nine. Oh two the bomb explodes big time. It's a massive explosion. The blast shears off almost entire front of the building injuring more than five hundred people. Killing one hundred sixty eight including nineteen children. Ninety eight of the govern- employs mcvay hated. So much die. The cars in the parking lot caught on fire nearly a third of the building polarized a large pool size eight foot deep hole as with the van used to sit. No one had ever seen anything like this before survivor stand on different levels. The building looking down stunned towards the crowd below this gathering the total cost of the damages later estimated as high as six hundred and fifty two million dollars. A rescue mission is undertaken immediately first responders horrified by no means ready for such a tragedy. All those dead children. I can only imagine the carnage. My brain doesn't want to picture it. The bomb was only fifty feet away from the daycare center and due to the Crater. The bomb made the first place. Brave responders stepped into where that daycare used to be body after tiny body pulled from the wreckage covered in white sheets. Line next to each other in the street with great luck and immense effort six of the twenty five children would survive that fucking mighty patriot. Who talked about how all. Atf agent should be hanged for treason. Doesn't bother to find out a fucking kids in the building. What a hero by nine thirty a triage has been established at six in Robinson. More and more survivors and victims are taken out of the rubble by ten. Fifteen blood drives begun at nearby. Tinker Air Force Base ran by the Oklahoma Blood Institute. Ten Seventeen. Am mcvay is pulled over by a state trooper on interstate thirty five hundred billions Oklahoma about eighty miles north of Oklahoma City. Why because he's missing that rear license plate the fuck up with is planning there. She pulled over put some plays on earlier or did he want to get caught. As McVeigh reaches for his Wallet. The trooper notices a bold unders light. Windbreaker and arrest McVeigh for carrying a concealed pistol in a shoulder holster. He's taken into custody. Pretty Ironic after all this basically gets arrested for weapons charge at the time of his arrest noodles wearing t shirt that reads six semper tarantulas. It's a Latin phrase attributed to one of the people who assassinated Julius Caesar it can be translated as thus always to tyrants. It's a shortened version of the phrase. Six semper vel mortem Toronto's which means the always I bring death to tyrants the same phrase John Wilkes booth yelled out after assassinating President Lincoln. No one yet. Mcveigh's the bomber sometime around noon. Investigators sifting through the smoldering rubble find suspicious truck axle and are able to read the confidential vehicle information identification number on it. Pba Two six zero seven seven computer check reveals a writer truck rented in Kansas agents are sent there to gather info that night. The last survivor of the blast is pulled from the wreckage. The Following Day April twentieth having interviewed witnesses in Oklahoma City and the writer depot in Kansas authorities released sketches of the suspects two white males John DOE one John DOE to John Doe. One looks an awful lot like Timothy. Mcveigh while John Doe. Two is actually a man that had been. Elliot's body shop around the time if bay was there within a day or two Completely unrelated to the case those two images would be quickly put on blast around the world Wonder if that second do still get shipped from his buddies. You know well. Of course you always been lucky. John Never You know called. Collards Hana do got away with that Oklahoma City bombing April twenty first shortly before he was about to be released from the Noble County jail on the traffic arrest. Mcveigh's identified as a bombing suspect turned over to the FBI crazy that you almost got away twice. Investigators had tracked down the motel that had stayed in by asking about the Ryder truck. It was the Dreamland Motel Room. Twenty-five the woman working there recognized the sketch showed. Investigators has rumors seat for some reason. He had signed it not with his new alias but with his real name seems like he fucked up when we discovered the McVeigh was connected to the bombing. People came to the Noble County courthouse from all around. He was let out in cuffs. He was booed as America's sell the face of the worst domestic terrorist and US history. He showed zero emotion. Shortly after. Mcveigh's arrest Terry Nichols. Here's his name on the news about the bombing and I imagine at least partially a shits. His pants he goes to the police and Harrington with his wife and daughter trying clear his name and he will never walk again. Fbi agents questioned him for hours he says in my eyes. I did not do anything wrong but I can see how lawyers can turn stuff around. I did not know anything But you did. Ftp You help with the bond together us a lot. More than anything Nichols and his brother. James were held as material witnesses. On April twenty second to following day Nichols is arrested. I as a material witness a court hearing he tells a Kansas judge. It's all a jumble of my brain right now. I bet it is your fucking brains. Jumbled April twenty third of memorial services held for victims of the blast on May fourth rescue workers in their search for the victims the bodies of Christie Roses Virginia Thompson and Alvin Justice. Who were all in the buildings? Credit Union remain buried unstable rubble. The death count stands at one. Sixty eight May. Ten Terry Nichols is formerly. Charged in connection with the bombing may seventeenth for Jane his wife Lori decide to cooperate with the FBI and seriously regret ever associating with noodle may twenty third one hundred fifty pounds of charges set by demolition experts. Demolish what remained of the Alfred P Murrah Federal Building? James Nichols brother of Terry is released from federal custody. Charges against him later dropped He was guilty of being related to a dip. Shit may twenty-ninth remaining three bodies of Rosas Thompson. Injustice are recovered August. Second McVeigh's sister. Jennifer testified before a federal grand jury. She was also under investigation for some time. During the case she was granted immunity as she testified she recalled an early nineteen ninety five. She received an ominous letter from her brother. Saying he won't be back for ever and warning to be careful because she would be investigated and to use a payphone. In case of alert to contact his friends Laurie and Michael Forte in Arizona. Because her phone would be tapped into letter. Mcvay advised his sister to read the Turner. Diaries a fucking stupid book. She said she knew about the large amount of explosives who's collecting but said she didn't know what they were using. He's going to use them for she said. I don't think I wanted to know. She recounted how when she was ten. Her parents divorced she. An older sister moved with her mother and Tim remained with their father eventually. She said she moved back with her father while she was in high school and her brother was in the army and she said that after graduation from high school her brother began sending her political literature focusing on the US Constitution and gun control and then began to escalate his anti government rhetoric calm the FBI and other federal law enforcement agencies fascist tyrants. She recalled a conversation with her brother who was very angry now said She she said that he indicated he was not in the propaganda stage which was passing out. Papers he was now in action stage. August eighth Michael forty-eight testifies in secret before the Oklahoma City federal grand jury investigating the bombing a day after signing a plea deal. His wife testified before the Grand Juries well August tenth afraid to a grand jury in Oklahoma. City indicts McVeigh Nichols on eleven. Felony counts blaming them for the bombing. The deaths of eight federal agents the grand jury says McVeigh Nichols conspired with others unknown. The grand jury indicts Michael J. Four crimes he pleads guilty in Oklahoma City Federal Court. Fourteen minutes he failed to warrant any one of the bomb plot and lied. Fbi agents after the attack and he admits he helped McVeigh move and sell about twenty five stolen guns on August fifteenth McVeigh and Nichols Arraigned separately. An Oklahoma City Federal Court October Twentieth Prosecutors seek the death penalty against McVeigh and Nichols your half later. April twenty fourth nineteen ninety-seven Noodles. Trial Begins Prosecutors and defense attorneys. Make opening statements may twelfth and Thirteenth Four. Jay Tells Jurors mcvay wanted to blow up the Oklahoma City Federal building to cause a general uprising in America and to knock some people off defense into taking action against the Federal Government. Good old turner. Diaries May twenty-first prosecutors rest. Their case on May twenty eighth of defense rest. There's and on June second after twenty. Three and a half hours of deliberations over four days McVeigh's convicted on all counts hundreds gather outside the courthouse to applaud. The jury's verdict on June thirteenth jury says mcvay to death by lethal injection August twentieth calling his client and ingrate and Aligarh noodle dry winds attorney. Steven Jones asked the commission to step down as noodles. Lead attorney for the Appeals Process on September twenty seventh Nichols Federal. Trial begins with jury selection on November Twentieth Nichols ex wife testifies letter from Nichols told mcvay to go for quote unquote on December. Twenty Third Nichols is convicted the bombing conspiracy but acquitted of direct blame for the attack. Jurors find him guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Instead of murder on May twenty seventh ninety eight Michael Forte in Oklahoma City to twelve years in prison and fined two hundred thousand dollars. June fourth ninety eight calling him. An enemy of the constitution of federal judge sentences Nichols to life imprisonment without parole the maximum sentence. This closed the judicial books on a searing chapter in American history. That underscored the nation's vulnerability to domestic terror March eighth nineteen ninety nine the US. Supreme Court rejects McVeigh's request for an appeal July Evans. Ninety-nine mcvay is moved the newly-opened death row facility at Terre Haute Federal Prison in Indiana. Same place where former suck subject and current piece of Shit. Joseph Duncan sits today August seventeenth. Mcvay appeals again alleged incompetence by his lawyers October twelfth the US Supreme Court Rejects Nichols Appeal. And he eventually loses. All his appeal's January thirtieth two thousand Nichols is moved to Oklahoma City To the Oklahoma City jail from federal prison in Colorado on October twelfth two thousand a US District Court in Denver Denies McVeigh's final request for a new trial December eleventh mcvay files a statement of US District Court in Colorado in which he gives notice to forego further appeals request an execution date beset with one hundred twenty days except for May sixteenth. April third. Mcvay admits in a new biography that he committed the bombing. He claims Nichols helped him. He also Calisi calls the dead children. Collateral damage and shows zero remorse for their deaths April Twelfth Attorney General John Ashcroft announces that two hundred fifty survivors and relatives can watch his execution via secure closed circuit television link April nineteenth two thousand one six year anniversary of the bombing May Eleventh John. Ashcroft postpones the execution for one month after it's revealed that the F. B. I. failed to release thousands of documents to McVeigh's lawyers because of this he has not executed on May sixteenth but then a month later after a brief delay because that paperwork blender mcvay on June eleven. Two thousand one is executed by lethal injection at the federal prison in. Terre Haute Indiana noodles dry winds remains or then cremated and disposed of at an undisclosed location. Hopefully they were tossed in a PORTA. Potty on January twentieth two thousand six Michael Forte is released from prison. His location is not revealed prompting speculation that he entered a witness protection program. And that takes us out of this insane time. Suck TIME LINE. Good job soldier. You made it back. Oh boy are I just just quick word. About okay see conspiracies before we wrap up the o'casey. Ripe with conspiracy conspiracies Starting as soon as the dust settled for Middle East connections to false flags by the US government into using mcvay like some kind of Manchurian candidate. There's all kinds of theories They flooded the underground video trading circuits and self published book tours. Sorry we didn't get into those today. The suck was a beast already and I and I just wanted to say stay focused more on the facts on this one. Mcvay succeeded in his mission to terrorize America but he failed in his hopes of sparking future attacks leading America into some sort of anarchist race war. His actions didn't even lead to an uptick in other domestic terrorists. Trying to the same type of stupid shit he did thank God no noodle Mc dry wing was a total and complete failure. Anyone who thinks praises are in my opinion either seriously misinformed or racist ignorant anarchist fucking Dick Bex Noodle was veteran but he was not a patriot. He was a traitor. Who was a domestic terrorist? Glad he's dead You know where his bomb wants exploded and left a carnage and death. Nightmares behind a beautiful memorial. Now sits the Oklahoma City. National Memorial Museum looks incredible so well done The field of empty chair sits where the Murrah building once stood hundred and sixty eight. Empty chairs handcrafted from glass. Bronze and stone represent those who lost their lives with names etched into the glass base of each one. Beautiful poignant haunting there's a reflection pool the Gaetano survivors wall much more three point three Acre incredibly designed tribute to American not being the American mcvay wanted of just about impossible to not least tear up and tear up when you visit. Thank God McVeigh did not accomplish any of his Turner. Diaries fannies fantasies Thank God we're better than that Hope we always are Hale Nimrod Time now for top five takeaways time number one. Timothy McVeigh wanted to be a martyr for the cause of a new American revolution against the federal government instead of the British and in a few minds I guess he is I guess he is a martyr to some. But I think in many more mines noodle dry Wayne Will instead just be remembered for what he actually a delusional loser a racist child murderer who killed one hundred sixty eight countryman in a misguided act of fake patriotism number two America's militia and Patriot movements have a lot of different flavors of people inside of them. Mcveigh was amongst the worst of those flavors. He identified heavily with the ideas of the racist Revolutionary Book. Turner diaries he sold a gun. Shows told everyone he met to read it and I forgot to mention this earlier. Even had pages of the book open on the passenger seat of his getaway car after the bombing. Fuck everyone who gives that book. Five Stars Amazon. Even those who seem to have done so because they they don't seem to understand how How ratings system works hate it. Five out of five Number three the Oklahoma City bombing was the largest terror attack in American history. When it happened remains the largest terror attack committed by a domestic terrorist. And I hope some new attack never tops it number. Four noodle took a conspiracy theme road trip before the bombing. How Weird is that detail? He wanted to spiritual revenge mission that took him to Ruby Ridge Waco Even area fifty one before heading to Oklahoma City do was wacky dealing with capital. F. Number five new info although America's never seen an attack like okay see before one had been planned and not just in the Turner Diaries. October nineteen eighty-three members of the White Supremacist Group. The covenant the Sword and the arm of the Lord CSA including founder. James Ellison Richard Snell Founders are not excuse me including founder. James Ellison and Richard Snell plotted to Park van or trailer in front of the Federal Building. And blow up with rockets detonated by Timer More Paranoid Racist Idiots while the essay was building a rocket launcher to attack the building. The Ordinance Action Accidentally detonated in one of the members hands. It's awesome the. Psa took this as divine intervention and called off the planned attack Or they realized they were just fucking too dumb to pull it off and a strange coincidence convicted of murder in an unrelated case. Richard Snell ended up later being executed on April nineteenth and ninety five same day bombing that federal building was carried out by McVeigh The Dump fucking killed a pawn shop owner for being Jewish Even though he wasn't used she just thought he was and then he killed black police officer and then got the death penalty. Snow reportedly spent his last day alive watching news coverage of the Oklahoma City bombing and laughing to himself. Snow Snow seem to have thought the bomb he was gonNA kick off the race war. He and McVeigh hope for just before being executed. He looked at Arkansas governor. Jim Tucker and said look over your shoulder. Justice has come and I wouldn't trade places with you or any your cronies hale has victories. I'm at peace. No War never came Dumb Shit. You died in vain just like old noodle. Mc Dry by taking away who has a big one Oklahoma City. Bomber has been sucked. That was that was a novel. Hope you enjoyed as much as I did. So much info big thanks to time so tame thanks to Queen Anne Lindsay Comments High Priestess Harmony veldkamp Reverend Dr Paisley Bid Alexa APP Design Crew Logan Kate. Spicy club running that sweet as bad magic merge DOT COM and Script Keeper Zach. Flannery checkout please. The cold of the curious private facebook group. You WanNa make some new friends. Thank you again to counter the cult Liz Hernandez sorry. I missed you when you're out here when I was in Saint Louis Thanks for being kick ASS Adleman over sixteen thousand meet sacks to meet in the cult curious now thanks. All seeing is The cult for helping Lewis also time suck discord channel via the time. Suck APP has over fifty five hundred die-hard suckers having fun in there Thanks again beefsteak. Hope you're feeling better. Next week we dig into a new cult. The Nation of Galway Colt Colt identified by the southern poverty law center as a black supremacy called. It only seem fair. If going over several white racists Wackadoo those that we cover some black racist Wackadoo feels good reminder. Racism comes in all colors during the nineteen eighty S. This group was investigated in connection to twenty three murders around Miami Florida including a decapitated temple dissident and several dead white people. Who'd had their ears cut off for real November nineteen ninety the cult leader. Galway Galway Aka Grandmaster of all AKA. God of the Universe is a real title Game Self Aka Everlasting Father Aka real name Hunan Mitchell junior and some of his followers were indicted with fourteen killings. Two attempted killings arson and extortion. According to the charges the group killed former members and they also practice in initiation rite which evolved killing a white person and given one of their ears to Galway. Y'All been convicted of conspiracy to commit murder in nineteen ninety-two. It's going to be another wild ride. Now let's get to this week's time sucker updates times our first update comes in from Super Sucker. Michael David Anderson who updates old suck suck nineteen flatter theory fucker. We talked about flatters lot in some of those early episodes in one of those letters we talked about was a man named Mad Mike. Use Limo driver amateur rocket enthusiast Michael writes hey master time sucker. Quick Update Mad Mike. The flatter through determined to prove your flat with homemade rocket was killed during his latest attempt to fly outside of Los Angeles. Here's a lengthy article. I read this morning in the article said Michael Hughes who went by the Moniker Mad. Mike was attempting to launch his steam powered rocket to an altitude of five thousand feet from a site in the desert north west of Los Angeles. On Saturday February twenty-second two. Pm But crash. Twenty seconds after take-off Mr Hughes Sixty four events. She wanted to prove his flatter theory by taking photographs of the curvature of the planet or lack of curvature from space the stunt being filmed for Science Channel Program called homemade astronauts on a dump. The program confirmed his death Tweeting Michael Mad. Mike Hughes Tragically passed away today during an attempt to launch his homemade rocket or thoughts and prayers. Go out to his family and friends during this difficult time. It was always his dream to do this launch and science channel with chronicle his journey. Now that you there to exploit a fucking lunatic in preposterously stupid video of the launch shows Mr Hughes Rocket Arc off to the right almost immediately after takeoff with what appears to be the parachute fallen away from the craft the rocket and plummets knows versus the ground and the crash happened in the open desert near Barstow town north west of San Bernardino Nantucket a needless tragedy. Right I mean I know. It's sad on one level but also I nominate this for Darwin. Awards fucking hall of fame. Holy Shit never locked yourself anywhere in a homemade rocket than Michael continues with also on another note. I wanted to let you know I love the show. I'm still getting caught up on the back. Catalog just finished the toy. Box killer suck can definitely understand how hard that particular subject must have been appreciate. How much pro. You approach these dark subjects. Though especially in terms of the illumination. I feel they deserve. I'm an independent horror novelist. There are some subjects. Even I would not want to fully dedicate myself to ride and because of the inherent darkness I was raised on a diet of horsa kid. Stephen King and Dean. Koontz is my too early influences once. I reate my personal stock. I intend to send copies of my novels to the Suck Dungeon. Keep Sucking Michael David Anderson. Well thank you Michael. I like a good horror novel. Look forward to seeing those books show up here in the suck dungeon and I hope you continue to enjoy the show next up. Wonderful shout out to the cult of the curious facebook community from a beautiful meets actually tuft Julia Rights Dearest. Dan The suck master. I'm recently very active in the culture secured group on facebook. Holy Mother Fuck this community fucking loves each other and embraces understand supports and encourages each other. It's Hilarious memes and amazing humor but I would have never expected the deepest levels of sympathy empathy and care and concern the members exhibit consistently posted a couple weeks ago. Feeling lost as my little brother died suddenly on January twenty second. Sorry about that. That is a terrible terrible tragedy He was thirty six. I am thirty nine. My post was addressing my loss of my best friend and ally in life. And how now in this time? I didn't have him to share horrible dark humor with and make poorly tasted jokes in the worst moments to laugh. Because it's how I COPE A. Posted a meme that I loved and had no one to share it with because my brother was who I would be sharing it with the mean. Read me at my best friend's funeral. We are gathered here today because somebody glares at coffin couldn't stay alive Along with the pigmy my little Bro- The outpouring of love horribly amazing dark humor and messages to not stop in me to not lose my humor. Along with my brother was amazing. Keep my This is said to keep my dark humor alive former brother and I have kept it alive. it has truly been one of the best pieces of advice so far. I don't feel like I've lost everything with him. I just start looking like a maniac laughing to myself and sometimes talking out loud to my brother. Who's dead? I wanted to express appreciation and adoration of the beautiful cult family. That you've all created it's legitimately been life. Changing in. My experience isn't unique multiple times a day. I see incredibly inspirational messages to others. Who are hurting confused law suicidal the community. You've all started. Litter is literally saving lives. It's restored my faith in humanity Literally life-saving in some cases. Thank you and your team for creating this inexplicably majestic Rupa suckers the most uplifting place. I returned to repeatedly every day. Please never stopped suck inhale Nimrod most sincerely Julie motherfucking tough. I added the motherfucking there. Man What a great reminder For what this is for a lot of people and for me to for me to not fuck this all up. No pressure services. I'm so happy you've gotten so much support in and again. So sorry for an irreplaceable loss. But so glad you found a new set of friends who share that beautiful fucked up since humor's never lose it. Stay dark sweet Julie. Next Upgrade Update on Ruby Ridge from Great Sucker Wade Himal- Wade writes Dan. I'm not sure this is the correct way to email you. I want to write you about two issues. I have both from the Ruby Ridge. Suck I point is that our government never has the right to put the title of Judge Jury Executioner in one person's hands that is why they are different in the legal system during Ruby Ridge. A trigger happy sniper was not in danger and shots a wife with the baby in her hands that is the definition of wrongful death. Second during updates. You said that isis standing up against our military still exists. My issue with that is. Isis has automatic weapons rocket launchers in a number of other weapons in American citizens do not have isis is fighting around five thousand or so of our troops and kill very few. We'll our military kills hundreds of them on a regular basis. Please how this is standing up to our military will continue to listen but I think you're incorrect. In assuming that the American people give up rights because they commit a crime just like our right to bear arms is the right of a fair trial giving law enforcement's informants yet forces The order to kill site is not a fair trial So glad you sent this way. I I keep talking about this. I do agree that God I would say in maybe all cases but asterix because there might be something. I'm not thinking of that. Yeah you shouldn't be able to kill onsite. Us citizens are on their own property. You're right the. Us government does not have the right to act of judge jury and executioner. That being said it I just with this case it wasn't someone merely breaking the law It was someone who written threatening letters into the government for longtime someone keeping kids on the compound kids keeping those kids away for medical care keeping them away from proper supplies because dad wouldn't go to court It's not like you shopped. Something local gas station than a fucking sniper shot wife immediately but you are right snipers life is not endanger at that. They could have and should have handled things differently. Does seem excessive. Just I wish I wish I knew how it could have been handled differently. Exactly I still think Randy Weaver and Vicky were dangerous lunatics but it doesn't mean his Co. for the government to come in and kill him. It's it's a bad precedent. I truly do see your point. She definitely wasn't given a fair trial. The kids complicated for me. I just I wish someone would would send in A. Here's how it should have happened in. In the sense of here's how they should have been arrested in subdued in that particular case and then. I'm like okay. All right okay. I haven't seen it yet but I know someone can think of Isis yes They do stand military. Really what you're saying. They get their asses handed to them a lot absolutely but but they haven't been totally defeated yesterday. I better weapons I was trying to make the point that you know Insurgencies in other countries where where? The insurgents were outmanned outgunned Did eventually just kind of wear their oppressor down and kind of gave up like Vietnam. You know less than sixty thousand. Us troops were killed versace. Roughly a million via com. But we still didn't win. See you're right you're right the. Us military kills way more insurgents vice versa but the insurgents do remain in some cases and now he's just my point my point. Is that an arm. Us citizens re I know they couldn't defeat the US military and ahead head firefight. Of course not no fucking way but I do think that arm citizens could continue to lead some kind of resistance against use carbon especially if they'd great numbers because of our population base if the government turned to radical And and and just do something rather than just lay down and just take it and I hope it never comes down and I don't think it will. I don't know but thank you. Wait this stuff. I think about a lot Last one for today big episode so few less normal little shoutout coming in from magnificent. Meet SEC amy. Steak writes good day gloriously hostile leader. That's fair great soccer things longtime listener of owes you stand up in time so in love with std with you and Lindsey. Since starting the podcast I been one a bit. Been to one life podcast. Thanks to the amazing Adam with good people doing good We Love Adam. My daughter and I bonded over at Some SD stories. As Larry said out of context and I have met some absolutely incredible people some which checking with everyday on facebook the level of support and love and the Colt is one of the things on the Internet. These days a little. Hello to my suck Buddy Christina. You're awesome friend Dr Save. Don't rape and try not to get fucked by Zeus today. Sorry sorry but we have combined a bit of Jd. Animals in a line for your Greek gods suck and two regular sign off when we chat a right today. Only request simple birthday. Shout out to my husband. Brendan or Brennan Steak. His birthday is March seventeenth. Scene is how time so it comes out of Monday's and he spends the following morning listening on his headphones. While he works his ass off for our family I think it might just make his birthday. He's the most amazing stepfather and love our kids. So much melts my heart. Thank you for all the work you put into these podcasts. All your writing. Thank you Lindsey. For being a great example of how couples who worked together create awesomely powerful situations. You're still read. So many people Thanksgiving Amy. Amy Thank you. I'm glad you haven't found with all this Brennan. I know it's a bit early but I don't want to forget. I was paranoid that I forget if I didn't put it in this one now. So happy fucking birthday you son of a bitch and Hail Nimrod and keep working for your awesome family and good last name stake as a powerful name the stakes way better than the MC dry wings and. That's all for today. My brain is dead. Thanks Times I needed. We all have a great week time. Suckers don't read any really stupid books and then attack the government in a misguided attempt to bring about the fall the government and Insane Race War. Police it seems excessive and keep on sucking noodle. Mc Dry wing out.

United States Timothy McVeigh Ruby Ridge Randy Weaver America Patriots Oklahoma City FBI Waco Federal Government Terry Nichols Idaho Texas Washington Davidians Oklahoma ATF David Koresh Boston Marathon
Special Series: OKC Bombing Pt. 1

Conspiracy Theories

38:38 min | 3 months ago

Special Series: OKC Bombing Pt. 1

"Due to the graphic nature of these events listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of violence and death that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. On the evening of May fourth eighteen, eighty, six, a light rain fell on hundreds of demonstrators at Haymarket Square in Chicago the previous day workers and labor organizers had rallied in support of an eight hour workday. The Chicago police had fired into the crowd killing two demonstrators. So on May fourth citizens organized another rally to denounce the police forces violence and intimidation tactics. A couple hours into the event of Italian of two hundred officers appeared on the far side of Haymarket Square. The solid wall of dark blue uniforms seemed like an invading army prepared for war. It was a terrifying sight, but the protesters continue to chant peacefully. Then a little after ten o'clock in the evening the police marched into the crowd yelling for everyone to disperse. Suddenly one of the protesters through a homemade bomb into the formation of police. It exploded launching shrapnel in all directions in the chaos police fired indiscriminately into the crowd of unarmed citizens. When the dust finally settled seven Chicago police officers and four civilians were dead and almost a hundred people were injured. The tragedy which became known as the haymarket affair was the United States first terrorist bombing. But it wouldn't be the last. Welcome to conspiracy theories a podcast original. I'm only Brandenburg and I'm corduroy. Normally we take things story by story conspiracy by conspiracy, but for the next four, kids will be doing something a little different. We're going to deep dive into one devastating moment in US history, the Oklahoma City bombing on April Nineteenth nineteen ninety five. This year marks the twenty fifth anniversary of that tragic event at the time it was the worst terrorist incident on American soil and to change the way Americans think about terror. Prior to Oklahoma City many considered terrorism an oddity that only happened in foreign countries or at the hands of Middle Eastern terrorists. But with one blast into the heart of the Mid West they realized a bombing could happen in their own backyard at the hands of the boy next door. A quarter century later, the shock waves of Oklahoma City are still reverberating as Americans grapple with anti-government protests, sharp political divides and another form of domestic terrorism mass shootings. Today we're going explore the origins of domestic terrorism which reach all the way back to surprising source the early American colonies in the sixteen hundreds. We'll look at how domestic terrorism evolved from patriotic militia groups in the seventeen hundreds to the racist white separatist groups that attracted young men like Timothy McVeigh the Oklahoma City bomber. Next episode will chronicle the life of mcvay and explore what motivated him to detonate seven thousand pounds of explosives in front of the Alfred p Murrah building in Oklahoma City. In later, episodes as the dust clears on the horrific event, we'll journey through the aftermath of the bombing, the trial of Timothy McVeigh and his co-conspirators and how the tragedy changed American society wherever. COMING UP WE'LL DIG into. This tragic story. The eighteen eighty six haymarket affair was the first instance of terrorist bombing on American soil. and. It shocked people across the US. In the weeks that followed eight protesters were arrested and convicted one of the men thirty, six year old Oscar. Niba. Use the trial to shine a light on the brutal tactics used by police officers. Little did he know that one hundred and ten years later? Americans. Would still be protesting law enforcement with explosive results. On April Nineteenth nineteen ninety five Timothy McVeigh. Detonated a truck bomb outside the Alfred P Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. In contrast to the haymarket bombing, which had just over a dozen casualties this explosion killed one, hundred, sixty, eight. including, nineteen children under the age of six. And at injured over six hundred. Until. The attacks of September eleventh two, thousand, one the Oklahoma. City. Bombing was the deadliest terrorist attack in US history and it still remains the deadliest instance of domestic terrorism. But what sets the Oklahoma City bombing apart from the haymarket affair are the ideological and social underpinnings. Hey Market was specifically a local matter and to some degree it was in self defense. One of the protestors detonated the bomb to protect himself and others from brutal police tactics. On the other hand Timothy, McVeigh didn't even live in Oklahoma. He chose to bomb the federal building as a symbolic military strike against his government. However, he also considered his bombing to be a response to police violence specifically the actions of federal agencies like the FBI against white militia groups. Timothy McVeigh explained in a letter from prison. Foremost. The bombing was a retaliatory strike for the cumulative raids and subsequent violence that federal agents had participated in over the preceding years including but not limited to. Waco Texas. Later, in the letter, McVeigh also cited the tragic events at Ruby Ridge Idaho. To understand, McVeigh's motivations. We need to dig into the history of militia movement in the US. And to do that, we need to travel back in time to the sixteen hundreds to the colonial days of America. In the very beginning militias, which were simple groups of armed townsfolk were used for two distinct purposes. I they defended villages from outsiders, mainly native Americans or other competing settlements and second they defended colonists from the abuses of local governments. In the summer of Sixteen Seventy six, twenty, nine year old. Nathaniel. Bacon organized a militia against his local government. Dismayed that the governor of Virginia wouldn't protect towns against native American Tribes Bacon led three hundred militiamen to demand change and when Bacon and his militia were successful. It set the stage for similar uprisings in Pennsylvania and New York. The use of militias for local and regional political change was a significant development in the early colonies. But one event a century later would thrust militias onto the national stage. In the predawn hours of April. Nineteenth seventeen seventy five hall, revere road through the mist covered fields of Lexington Massachusetts yelling for townsfolk to awake and prepare the British were marching their way. Within minutes a group of seventy colonial militiamen gathered in the town square of Lexington. They wore whatever clothing they could find from woollen coats to leather blacksmith aprons, and they carried their own personal muskets. They became known as the minute men for how quickly they were ready. Once, in the square, the men milled about nervously they were rebelling against the British Empire One of the most powerful militaries in the world. But they had to take a stand if the British weren't going to allow them a place in parliament, the men had no choice but to fight for independence. And as a faint glow of sunlight appeared on the horizon. They saw something coming down the road. Around seven hundred. Highly trained. British soldiers. The soldiers pristine Red Tunics and polished buttons gleamed in the early dawn light. In their military rifles with Ban Nets were intimidating. The militiamen were outclassed but they held their ground. This was their town. What happened next has been debated by historians for centuries but someone fired I saw claim it was the British others claim it was the militia regardless it was considered the first shot of the American revolution. The outnumbered colonial militia were brushed back by the. British. But after hours of fighting through Lexington and concord, the British had returned to Boston. The militia pursued them shooting and sniping the whole way back. Soon after the image of the militiamen came to represent American patriotism. It evoked a David and Goliath, story of scrappy young men squaring off against the well organized army of King George in the British. Empire. In. The years following the revolution militias became a fad for young man. They armed themselves and rehearsed for unseen battles. Some of the wealthier groups designed elaborate uniforms, most importantly though these militias were place for men to drink ale shoot guns and connect with each other. But militias were just for socializing or protecting of towns they were seen as a last line of defense against tyranny. So, on September seventeenth seventeen, eighty seven, they were famously canonized in the US. Constitution. The new governing document established Congress's power to call forth a militia to execute the laws of the union suppress insurrections and repel invasions. Four years later in seventeen ninety, one, the OFT quoted Second Amendment was added calling for a well regulated militia and the rights of people to keep and bear arms. As a result, militias were embedded in the DNA of the new country they became a fixture of social life, and unfortunately they became the basis for some of the earliest terrorist events in the US. Throughout the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds, groups of armed young men under the banner of militias perpetrated violent attacks against native Americans Mormons and other groups of people who were perceived as different from the white broadest and settlers. These acts are considered by historians as the first domestic terror incidents in the US. Then, in the eighteen sixties, a dramatic shift occurred in the nature of militias. The civil war ignited a tinderbox of resentment and conflict across the country turning many militias against each other. In the north, most militiamen were absorbed into the Union army. But across the southern states, many militias still operated independently shifting their target from native Americans to slaves and other American citizens. On August twenty first eighteen, sixty, three southern militiamen led by confederate William. Quantrill invaded the town of Lawrence Kansas which had been settled by abolitionists from Massachusetts. The militia killed one, hundred, sixty, four men and boys to prevent them from joining the civil war and establishing a union stronghold deep inside southern territory. Throughout the civil war, most of the fighting occurred between the two national armies, the Northern Union and the southern confederates. But southern states embraced the old revolutionary war image of small militias battling the larger imperial force. To the south, the north taken the place of King George in the British, army? So they began publicizing their rebel forces or ribs has the new patriotic face of the militia movement. They branded themselves as freedom fighters while ironically supporting the continued enslavement of millions of people. In the years after the civil war southern militias evolved into violent racist groups like the KU, Klux Klan nights of the White, Camelia and the red shirts. These groups of armed white men rode through Mississippi Georgia and Alabama burning crosses, lynching black citizens and wreaking havoc. The Ku Klux Klan reached the peak of its power and membership in the nineteen twenties, but after shifting national opinions about racism and a series of high profile crimes by KKK. The clan's power began to decline in the nineteen. Thirties. Heading into the nineteen forties. Other militias experienced a similar decline in popularity as Americans united to fight in World War Two. But in the nineteen fifties as the country adjusted to life after the war men once again gravitated toward malicious. This time however instead of wearing white robes on horseback, they transition to ground separatist and so-called survivalist groups. This was partly due to changing public perception and the start of the civil rights movement. Many white supremacists believed it was easier and safer to isolate themselves instead of trying to force their beliefs on society as a whole. During this period militias built followings of disenfranchised white men who wanted to shoot guns and live on compounds and remote areas of the country. The development of these militias was fictionalized in a nineteen seventy eight book entitled the Turner Diaries. Written by White Supremacist and Neo Nazi William Pierce the book chronicled and underground white militia preparing to overthrow the government and fighting all out race war over the years the Turner diaries spawned the creation of more militia groups and anti-government terrorists. Nineteen seventy eight ushered in one of the largest in influential militias of the late twentieth century called Irian Nations. This organization was founded by six year old Richard Butler and like similar groups it was built on a foundation of antisemitism ended extreme form of Christianity called Christian identity. According to Butler and his followers, arriens or white Americans and Europeans were descended from the lost tribes of Israel. They also believed that the country was named for a race war and that they needed to stockpile weapons to prepare. So, like many militia groups of the nineteen sixties and Seventies Butler built a multi Acre compound in a remote region of the country. He chose Idaho. where he thought he would be free from the prying eyes of the federal government? Their his followers could train with guns, explosives, and survivor equipment. And every year he hosted the World Congress of area nations which attracted members of various white supremacist groups from across the country. In July nineteen eighty-six, a new face appeared at Butler's annual gathering a thirty eight year old retired army green beret named Randall. Weaver. Randy live nearby a wooded hillside called Ruby Ridge. Coming Up Ruby Ridge becomes a rallying cry for white militia groups across the US now back to the story. In. October nineteen sixty eight at the height of the Vietnam War. Twenty year old Randy Weaver joined the US army. He was a mid western boy with a patriotic streak and desire to fight for his country. During his time in the army, he became a member of the Green Berets in elite Special Forces Group. After an honorable discharge from the army randy married his girlfriend Vicky who shared his white supremacist and extreme religious beliefs. The subscribed to a particularly radical form of Christianity called Christian identity, which believes that white people were descended from a lost tribe of Israel. For most of his life randy was open about his racist beliefs. He said at one point. I'm not a hateful racist as many people understand it but I believe in the separation of races we want to be separated from the rest of the world to live in a remote area to give our children a good place to grow up. Randy and Vicki found that remote area in the early nineteen eighties. Purchased a twenty Acre plot of land in the hills of Idaho called Ruby Ridge. There amongst the Douglas Fir trees, Randy and Vicki built family compound randy, even built Vicky a birthing shed in accordance with their religious beliefs. They contended that pregnant women were unclean and had to be quarantined during childbirth. In the Wilderness of Idaho Randy and Vicki found plenty of like minded religious extremists. Only about an hour's drive from Ruby Ridge was Richard Butler's Aryan nations compound. In July, nineteen, eighty, six, randy began attending meetings there for the most part. Randy kept to himself in stay out of trouble but then something unexpected happened. In October nineteen eighty nine forty one year old randy sold to modified shotguns to an undercover informant for the bureau. Of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms soon after federal agents approach randy with a deal, he could either become a federal informant within Aryan nations or they would arrest him for the illegal shotguns. Randy promptly told them to go to hell. Within Days Randy alerted Indian nations that federal authorities retargeting them. The agents thread only reinforced all of his anti-government rhetoric. To Randy it didn't matter how long the shotgun barrels were. He believed it was his right under the constitution to own them and sell them. However, the government believed otherwise. In January nineteen, ninety one US marshals started planning to arrest Randy for the weapons charges. But. They knew entering his twenty Acre compound was a risk. They were well aware that Randy was heavily armed. They would have to strike when he was gone. So the marshalls posted lookouts near Ruby Ridge to alert them when Randy was leaving on January Seventeenth Randy started his truck and headed down the long dusty driveway off the ridge. Once. On the main road, he noticed a stranded motorist on the side of the Road Randy wasn't in a rush. So he pulled over to help except the motorist wasn't actually in trouble. It was a US marshal in randy was now under arrest. The next day randy was arraigned released on bail and given a court date for the next month. But after the ambush arrest in what he believed were trumped up weapons charges randy became even more distrustful of the US government. In his view, didn't make sense to gamble on a corrupt illegal process to clear his name. So instead of preparing for his trial, he and his family isolated themselves on their twenty Acre property in Ruby Ridge. Randy instructed his wife Vicki to send a letter to the US attorney stating that they would never bow to the government's evil commandments whether they lived or died. In February nineteen ninety one when Randy didn't show up for his trial, the court issued a failure to appear warrant. The case was once again turned over to the US Marshall Service. But this time randy wasn't going to fall for a stranded motorist. In, fact he wouldn't leave Ruby Ridge for anything. Over the next year, the marshalls made numerous. To Arrest Randy but the deputies were frequently blockaded by his gun toting children. By the early months of Nineteen ninety-two, the national press got wind of the stalemate reporters and news cameras flocked the remote area of Idaho clamoring for interviews with Randy and Vicki. But the to refuse to speak with any press except for local newspaper writer. They told him the federal government was more concerned about shutting their mouths about the illegal shotguns. In spite of the Weavers Camera Shyness, they were suddenly atop new story and people around the country were a buzz with the name Ruby, Ridge some in favor of an all out siege and some who just wanted the government to leave the weavers own by the summer of Nineteen ninety-two the stalemate was starting to embarrass the federal government. Many officials believed it was setting a bad precedent that white separatist could barricade themselves on their land refuse to cooperate. Pressure started to build for the US marshals to arrest Randy and end the standoff. So on August twenty first. Nineteen Ninety two, a hot dry Idaho summer day a group of us. Marshals outfitted themselves with camouflage military rifles and night vision scopes and entered the weavers property. That morning they only wanted to scout the area before planning their next tactical operation. But. At about eleven am. The weavers yellow. Labrador named striker started barking and took off toward the marshalls. The dog was followed closely by the weavers fourteen year old son Sammy and the family friend twenty, five year old Kevin. Harris who each carried loaded rifles. The marshalls called for the kids to come get their dog. But then another Marshall stood up from his hiding place behind a tree stump and within seconds bullets were flying who shot I has been disputed ever since the government contends that Kevin Harris, the weaver's friend shot I. But Kevin maintained that one of the marshals shot the weavers dog I which triggered Sammy Weaver to yell you killed my dog you son of a bitch. Then the young boy began firing. Either way, a deadly shootout ensued leaving Sammy Weaver, one of the marshalls and the weavers dog dead. In the aftermath, the marshalls. Raided the hillside carrying their dead comrade. And Kevin Harris race back to the cabin to tell randy and Vicki what had happened. After that deadly confrontation more news crews descended on Ruby Ridge overnight. HEADLINES ABOUT THE DEAD US Marshal lit up the airwaves and the next day on August twenty second the FBI arrived at Ruby Ridge with modified rules of engagement. Because a federal agent had been killed, the bureau authorized their snipers to shoot to kill any adult in the possession of a firearm. Andy Weaver was not aware of the lethal FBI orders when he Kevin Harris and the weavers oldest daughter lift their cabin to visit Sammy's dead body. When they arrived at the storage shed a short distance from the main cabin, a bullet ripped through randy's arm. As. Inexperienced Green Beret. Realized that the government must have positioned snipers around them. Yelled for the others to retreat to the main cabin. As a dove inside another bullet rang out. This time cutting through Vicki Weaver skull killing her instantly she had been holding her infant daughter. Screams echoed across the mountain as the weaver family realized what had happened. The children saw their mother's brains splattered on the entry way of the cabin and the bullet had lodged in Kevin Harris's arm causing massive blood loss. Over the next nine days, the standoff intensified. The F. B. I., and federal government sent in more troops, armored personnel, carriers, and helicopters more and more news media showed up as well broadcasting the images around the world. To many people across the country, it looked like the US government was fighting a full-scale war against Randy Weaver an American citizen would reportedly only sold to illegal shotguns. To militia groups and disaffected white man randy represented there 'cause he could very easily have been them. Finally on August thirty first nineteen, ninety-two, a fellow former green beret named James Bo Gritz. Convinced Randy Weaver to surrender. After eleven days the violent siege was over. Many consider Ruby Ridge the birth of the modern American militia. Movement. Much like the colonial minute men who gathered on the town green in Lexington modern militias believed they were under attack by. Force. But their enemy was not a monarch across the ocean but their own government and they decided there was only one appropriate response to train stockpile guns and be ready for the next standoff. Even, outside of the militia movement, there was widespread public condemnation of the Ruby Ridge tragedy. Many Americans questioned the FBI's use of military style weapons and snipers against a US citizen. In response, a congressional commission was formed to investigate the mistakes that had been made and to revise the rules of engagement for federal standoffs. It seemed like progress was being made and the government had learned its lesson. But less than a year later, another tragedy unfolded leaving even more death and destruction in its wake. Coming up the FBI an ATF lay siege to a religious compound in Waco Texas now back to the story. At nine thirty am on February twenty, eighth nineteen, ninety, three, only six months after the Ruby Ridge tragedy thirty-three-year-old David Koresh was leading prayer session at his religious compound when he heard the thumping of helicopter blades overhead. Karesh. Was the leader of a sect of seventh day adventists called the branch. Davidians. He about one hundred of his followers lived on a seventy Acre commune a few miles outside of Waco Texas. For the past few weeks, Koresh and his followers had noticed federal agents camped out at the end of their dusty driveway. And the previous day, the local mailman had taped them off that a news van was asking for directions to the compound. Recently Karesh had been under fire for allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct the groups, women, and children. But the federal agents were sniffing around for another reason as well. The compound stockpiles of illegal firearms. The ATF had been investigating the branch Davidians for nearly a year noting every shipment of explosives, grenades and machine-guns that came into the compound, and by February twenty eighth nineteen ninety-three, they finally had a search warrant in hand. With the helicopter buzzing over the compound, Koresh knew something was wrong. He called the procession off and told the women and children to take shelter. Karesh and some of the men went to the front door and windows in what they saw was shocking. Caravan of unmarked vehicles came crunching down the dirt driveway the men inside the cars looked to be heavily armed. Similar to Ruby Ridge. There are conflicting reports about who fired the first shot but what followed was an intense firefight. The battle went on for close to an hour while the ATF agents tried to breach the compound from multiple locations. But the branch Davidians were heavily armed and defended the building with everything they had. Then at about ten thirty, am the ATF agents ran out of ammunition. They hadn't expected Karesh to be so well supplied, and now there were pinned down. Correction as men kept shooting. The ATF was forced to ask a local sheriff to negotiate a ceasefire. Finally. The branch Davidians allowed the ATF agents to evacuate with their wounded and dead. In all four agents were dead and sixteen were injured. The branch Davidians had lost five men. Including two who had been executed by their own men because they were too injured save. As the Akron smell of gunpowder diffused from the area, the scene at Waco reverberated with echoes of Ruby Ridge. With an hours, the FBI hostage, rescue team crisis negotiators, and heavily armed SWAT units. arrived. News vans and protesters swarmed like locusts broadcasting images of the compound twenty, four seven. Over, the next fifty days the American public became obsessed with Waco Texas and became the next battleground for the American militia movement. Even. Though Koresh and the branch Davidians didn't see themselves as a militia per se. They exhibited all the signs of one. They were a tight knit group led by a charismatic figurehead they stockpiled guns and explosives rehearsing for a future war. And like Randy Weaver area nations and many others the branch Davidians held extreme religious beliefs. So Waco became a symbol of all militias in separatist organisations. If. These Christians, in the middle of Texas could find the ATF and FBI doorstep. Anyone could. At first, it seemed like there was hope for a quick resolution. On the first night koresh allowed eighteen children to evacuate the compound. Five days later, three more emerged. But. After that, there was very little movement. Karesh agreed to surrender four times but reneged each time. By mid April the FBI was getting anxious to end the standoff. Not. Only was it costing the taxpayers close to one million dollars per day but the F. b. i.'s hostage rescue team cited worsening conditions for children inside the compound. So a few minutes before six am on April, nineteenth nineteen ninety-three, the FBI hostage rescue team dispatched to tank like armored vehicles to the compound. Karesh the branch Davidians scrambled for their guns and prepared for another firefight. But when the F. B. I.'s armored vehicles arrived at the building instead of firing their weapons, they started punching holes through the outer walls and began pumping tear gas inside. What happened next is disputed by both sides around noon flames became visible inside the compound. Government audio surveillance seem to show that Koresh and his followers were using gasoline to light the building on fire. But surviving branch Davidians and their supporters claimed that the FBI is tear gas canisters sparked the fires. Regardless within an hour, the entire branch. Davidian. Compound was engulfed in flames. Fierce Texas winds fueled the rapid spread and soon, the walls begin to collapse. Over the next hour. There were multiple small explosions inside the building along with POPs of bullets from burning stockpiles of ammunition. By when pm the roof of the compound completely collapsed. Rescue personnel eventually unearthed seventy bodies of dead men, women, and children inside the charred remains of the compound. Many of whom were shot either in suicide or in mercy executions by fellow cult members. It was other American tragedy this time on an even more massive scale. And watching the events unfold on a television in Michigan was a twenty four year. Old US army veteran named. Timothy. McVeigh. The fifty foot flames flickered in his eyes and ignited a deep desire for revenge against the US government. Much like the haymarket affair protesters in eighteen, eighty, six mcvay witnessed what he thought was law enforcement running rampant and targeting civilians. But to protest the brutality, he didn't plan to target them directly with a small hand held bomb encased in lead. No he had something much bigger in mind. Thanks for tuning into conspiracy theories. We'll be back Wednesday with our second episode about the Oklahoma City bombing. You can find all episodes of conspiracy theories and all other park asked originals for free on spotify not only the spotify already have all of your favorite music. But now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like conspiracy theories for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream conspiracy theories on spotify just open the APP and type conspiracy theories in the search bar until then remember the truth isn't always the best story and the officials story is always the truth. Conspiracy theories was created Max Cutler in his park estudios original executive producers include Maxon Ron Cutler sound designed by Anthony, Valentine. With production assistance by Ron, Shapiro Carly Madden, and Travis. Clark. This episode of Conspiracy Theories was written by Adam to Silva with writing assistance by Allie, wicker and stars. Molly Brandenburg and Carter Royal.

Randy Weaver US Ruby Ridge FBI US army federal government Timothy McVeigh Oklahoma City Texas David Koresh Davidians Vicki Weaver Idaho Karesh Oklahoma marshalls Haymarket Square ATF Mid West
S11: Infamous: OKC Bombing Pt. 1

Parcast Presents

39:22 min | 3 months ago

S11: Infamous: OKC Bombing Pt. 1

"It was the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in United States history claiming the lives of one hundred and sixty eight people and injuring close to a thousand more. But there are still unanswered questions about how and why the Oklahoma City bombing occurred. This is part one of a forward special. If you enjoy this episode head over to conspiracy theories and subscribe today part two is available. Now with part three airing next Monday and part four. Next Wednesday never miss out follow conspiracy theories free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Due to the graphic nature of these events listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of violence and death that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. On the evening of May fourth eighteen, eighty, six, a light rain fell on hundreds of demonstrators at Haymarket. Square in Chicago. The previous day workers and labor organizers had rallied in support of an eight hour workday. Chicago police had fired into the crowd killing two demonstrators. So on May fourth citizens organized another rally to denounce the police forces, violence and intimidation tactics. A, couple hours into the event. A battalion of two hundred officers appeared on the far side of Haymarket Square. The solid wall of dark blue uniforms seemed like an invading army prepared for war. It was a terrifying sight, but the protesters continued to chant peacefully. Then a little after ten o'clock in the evening the police marched into the crowd yelling for everyone to disperse. Suddenly one of the protesters through a homemade bomb into the formation of police it exploded launching shrapnel in all directions in the chaos police fired indiscriminately into the crowd of unarmed citizens. When the dust finally settled seven Chicago police, officers and force billions were dead and almost a hundred people were injured. The tragedy, which became known as the haymarket affair. Was the United States first terrorist bombing. But it wouldn't be the last. Welcome to conspiracy theories apar- cast original I'm only Brandenburg and I'm corduroy. Normally. We take things story by story conspiracy by conspiracy. But for the next four episodes, we'll be doing something a little different. We're going to deep dive into one devastating moment in US history. The Oklahoma City bombing on April nineteenth nineteen ninety-five. This year marks the twenty fifth anniversary of that tragic event at the time it was the worst terrorist incident on American soil. To change the way Americans think about terror. Prior to Oklahoma City many consider terrorism and oddity that only happened in foreign countries or at the hands of. Middle. Eastern terrorists. But with one blast into the heart of the Mid West, they realized a- bombing could happen in their own backyard at the hands of the boy next door. A quarter century later, the shock waves of. City are still reverberating as Americans grapple with anti-government protests, sharp political divides and another form of domestic terrorism mass shootings. Today. We're going to explore the origins of domestic terrorism which reach all the way back to a surprising source the early American colonies in the sixteen hundreds. We'll look at how domestic terrorism evolved from Patriotic Melissa groups in the seventeen hundreds to the racist white separatist groups that attracted young men like Timothy McVeigh the Oklahoma City bomber. Next episode will chronicle the life of mcvay and explore what motivated him to detonate seven thousand pounds of explosives in front of the Alfred p Murrah building in Oklahoma City. In later episodes as the dust clears on the horrific event. We'll journey through the aftermath of the bombing, the trial of Timothy, McVeigh and his co conspirators and how the tragedy changed American society wherever. COMING UP WE'LL DIG into this tragic story. The eighteen eighty six haymarket affair was the first instance of terrorist bombing on American soil. And it shocked people across the US in the weeks that followed eight protesters were arrested and convicted. One of the men thirty, six year old Oscar Niba use the trial to shine a light on the brutal tactics used by police officers. Little did he know that one hundred and ten years later, Americans would still be protesting law enforcement with explosive results. On April Nineteenth ninety-five Timothy, McVeigh detonated a truck bomb outside the Alfred P. Murrah. Federal Building in Oklahoma City. In contrast to the haymarket bombing, which had just over a dozen casualties, this explosion killed one, hundred and sixty eight. Including nineteen children under the age of six and injured over six hundred. Until the attacks of September eleventh two, thousand one, the Oklahoma City bombing was the deadliest terrorist attack in US history, and it still remains the deadliest instance of domestic terrorism. But what sets the Oklahoma City bombing apart from the haymarket affair are the ideological and social underpinnings. Haymarket was specifically a local matter and to some degree it was in self defense. One of the protestors detonated the bomb to protect himself and others from brutal police tactics. On the other hand, Timothy McVeigh didn't even live in Oklahoma he chose to bomb the federal building as a symbolic military strike against his government. However, he also considered his bombing to be a response to police violence specifically the actions of federal agents like the FBI against white militia groups. Timothy McVeigh explained in a letter from prison. Foremost the bombing was a retaliatory strike for the cumulative raids and subsequent violence that federal agents had participated in over the preceding years including but not limited to Waco Texas. Later, in the letter, McVeigh also cited the tragic events at Ruby Ridge Idaho. To understand McVeigh's motivations we need to dig into the history of the militia movement in the US. And to do that, we need to travel back in time to the sixteen hundreds to the colonial days of America. In the very beginning militias with were simple groups of townsfolk were used for two distinct purposes. I defended villages from outsiders, mainly native, Americans, or other competing settlements and second they defended colonists from the abuses of local governments. In the summer of Sixteen seventy, six, twenty, nine, year old the Faneuil Bacon organized a militia against his local government. Dismayed that the governor of Virginia wouldn't protect towns against native American Tribes Bacon led three hundred militiamen to demand change and when Bacon and his militia were successful. It set the stage for similar uprisings in Pennsylvania and New York. The use of militias for local and regional political change was a significant development in the early colonies. But one event essentially later would thrust militias onto the national stage. In the predawn hours of April nineteenth seventeen, seventy, five hall revere road through the mist covered fields of Lexington. Massachusetts. For townsfolk to awake and prepare the British were marching their way. Within minutes a group of seventy colonial militiamen gathered in the town square of Lexington. They wore whatever clothing they could find from woollen coats to leather blacksmith aprons. And they carried their own personal muskets, they became known as the minute men for how quickly they were ready. Once in the square, the men milled about not only they rebelling against the British, empire. One of the most powerful militaries in the world. But they had to take a stand if the British weren't going to allow them a place in parliament, the men had no choice but to fight for independence. And as a faint glow sunlight appeared on the horizon. They saw something coming down the road. Around seven hundred highly trained British soldiers. The. Soldiers Pristine Red Tunics and polished buttons gleamed in the early dawn light. In their military rifles with bayonets were intimidating. The militiamen were outclassed but they held their ground. This was their town. What happened next has been debated by historians centuries but someone fired I some claim it was the British others claim it was the militia regardless it was considered the first shot of the American revolution. The outnumbered colonial militia were brushed back by the British but after hours of fighting through Lexington and concord, the British had to return to Boston the militia pursued them shooting and sniping the whole way back. Soon after the image of the militiamen came to represent American patriotism. That evoked a David and Goliath story of scrappy young men squaring off against the well organized army of King George in the British Empire. In the years following the revolution. became a fad for young men. They arm themselves and rehearsed for unseen battles some of the wealthier groups designed elaborate uniforms. Most importantly, though these militias replace for men to drink ale shoot guns and connect with each other. But militias weren't just for socializing or protecting of towns they were seen as a last line of defense against tyranny. So, on September seventeenth seventeen, eighty, seven, they were famously canonized in the US Constitution. The new governing document established Congress's power to call forth a militia to execute the laws of the union suppress insurrections and repel invasions. Four years later in seventeen ninety, one, the OFT quoted second. Amendment was added calling for a well regulated militia and the rights of people to keep and bear arms. As a result militias were embedded in the DNA of the new country, they became a fixture of social life. And unfortunately, they became the basis for some of the earliest terrorist events in the US. Throughout the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds, groups of armed young men under the banner of militias perpetrated violent attacks against native. Americans. Mormons. And other groups of people who were perceived as different from the White Protestant settlers. These acts are considered by historians as the first domestic terror incidents in the US. Then in the eighteen sixties, a dramatic shift occurred in the nature of militias. The civil war ignited a tinderbox of resentment and conflict across the country turning many militias against each other. In the north most militiamen were absorbed into the union army but across the southern states, many militias still operated independently shifting their target from native Americans to slaves and other. Citizens. On. August, twenty. First. Sixty three. Militiamen led by confederate William, quantrill invaded the town of Lawrence Kansas, which had been settled by. From Massachusetts. The militia killed one hundred and sixty four men and boys to prevent them from joining the civil war and establishing a union stronghold deep inside southern territory. Throughout the civil war, most of the fighting occurred between the two national armies, the Northern Union and the southern confederates. Southern States embraced the old revolutionary war image of small militias battling the larger imperial force. To the South the North had taken the place of King George in the British Army. So they began publicizing their rebel forces or ribs has the new patriotic face of the militia movement. They branded themselves as freedom fighters while ironically supporting the continued enslavement of millions of people. In the years after the civil war southern militias. Into violent racist groups like the KU. Klux Klan nights of the White Camelia and the red shirts. These groups of armed white men rode through Mississippi Georgia and Alabama burning crosses, lynching black citizens, and wreaking havoc. The Ku Klux Klan reached the peak of its power and membership in the nineteen twenties but after shifting national opinions about racism and a series of high profile crimes by KKK leaders. The clan's power began to decline in the nineteen thirties? Heading into the nineteen forties, other militias experienced a similar decline in popularity as Americans united to fight in World War. Two But in the nineteen fifties as the country adjusted to life after the war men once again gravitated toward militias. This time however instead of wearing white robes on horseback they transition to underground separatist and so called survivalist groups. This was partly due to changing public perception and the start of the civil rights movement? Many white supremacists believed it was easier and safer to isolate themselves instead of trying to force their beliefs on society as a whole. During, this period militias built followings of disenfranchised white men who wanted to shoot guns and live on compounds in remote areas of the country. The development of these militias was fictionalized in a nineteen seventy eight book entitled the Turner Diaries. Written by White Supremacist, and Neo Nazi William Pierce the book chronicled and underground white militia preparing to overthrow the government and fight an all out race war over the years. The Turner diaries spawned the creation of more militia groups and anti-government terrorists. Nineteen seventy eight also ushered in one of the largest in influential militias of the late twentieth century called Irian Nations. This organization was founded by six year old. Richard. Butler and like similar groups it was built on a foundation of antisemitism and an extreme form of Christianity called Christian identity. According to Butler and his followers, Arians or white Americans and Europeans were descended from the lost tribes of Israel. They also believed that the country was destined for a race war and that they needed to stockpile weapons to prepare. So, like many militia groups of the nineteen sixties and Seventies Butler built a multi Acre compound in a remote region of the country. He chose Idaho. where he thought he would be free from the prying eyes of the federal. Government. Their his followers could train with guns, explosives, and survival equipment. And every year he hosted the World Congress of Aryan nations which attracted members of various white supremacist groups from across the country. In July nineteen, eighty six, a new face appeared at Butler's annual gathering a thirty, eight year old retired army green beret named Randall Weaver. Randy live nearby on a wooded hillside called Ruby Ridge. Coming up. Ruby Ridge becomes a rallying cry for white militia groups across the US now back to the story. In October nineteen sixty eight at the height of the Vietnam War twenty year old Randy Weaver joined the US army. He was a mid western boy with a patriotic streak and desire to fight for his country. During his time in the army he became a member of the green. Berets in elite Special Forces Group. After an honorable discharge from the army, Randy married his girlfriend Vicky who shared his white supremacist and extreme religious beliefs. They subscribe to a particularly radical form of Christianity called Christian entity, which believes that white people were descended from a lost tribe of Israel. For most of his life, Randy was open about his racist beliefs. He said at one point. I'm not a hateful racist as many people understand it but I believe in the separation of races we want to be separated from the rest of the world to live in a remote area to give our children a good place to grow up. Randy. And Vicki found that remote area in the early nineteen eighties when they purchased a twenty Acre plot of land in the hills of Idaho called Ruby Ridge. There amongst the Douglas Fir Trees Randy and Vicki built a family compound. Really even built. Vicky burning shed in accordance with their religious believes. They contended that pregnant women were unclean and had to be quarantined during childbirth. In the Wilderness of Idaho. Randy and Vicki fanned plenty of like minded religious extremists. Only about an hour's drive from. Ruby. Ridge was Richard Butler's Aryan nations compound. In July nineteen, eighty, six randy began attending meetings there for the most part Randy kept to himself in stayed out of trouble, but then something unexpected happened. In October, nineteen, eighty nine. Forty one year old randy sold to modified shotguns to undercover informant for the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms soon. Federal Agents Approach Randy with a deal, he could either become a federal informant within Aryan nations. Or they would arrest him for the illegal shotguns. Randy promptly told them to go to hell. Within. Days Randy alerted Aryan nations that federal authorities retargeting them. The agents thread only reinforced all of his anti-government rhetoric. To Randy, it didn't matter how long the shotgun barrels were. He believed it was his right under the constitution to own them and sell them. However the government believed otherwise. In January nineteen ninety one US marshals started planning to arrest Randy for the weapons charges. But they knew entering his twenty Acre compound was a risk. They were well aware that Randy was heavily armed. They would have to strike when he was gone. So the marshalls posted lookouts near. Ruby. Ridge to alert them when Randy was leaving on January Seventeenth Randy started his truck and headed down the long dusty driveway off the ridge. Once on the main road, he noticed a stranded motorist on the side of the road. Randy wasn't in a rush. So he pulled over to help except the motorist wasn't actually in trouble. It was a US Marshall. And Randy was now under arrest. The next day randy was arraigned released on bail and given a court date for the next month. But after the ambush arrest in what he believed were trumped up weapons charges randy became even more distrustful of the US government. In his view, it didn't make sense to gamble on a corrupt legal process to clear his name. So instead of preparing for his trial, he and his family isolated themselves on their twenty Acre property in Ruby Ridge. Randy instructed his wife Vicki to send a letter to the US attorney stating that they would never how to the government's evil commandments whether they lived or died. In February nineteen ninety one when Randy didn't show up his trial, the court issued a failure to appear warrant. The was once again turned over to the US Marshall Service, but this time randy wasn't going to fall for stranded motorists. In fact, he wouldn't leave Ruby Ridge for anything. Over, the next year the marshalls made numerous attempts to arrest Randy, but the deputies were frequently blockaded by his gun toting children. By the early months of Nineteen ninety-two, the national press got wind of the stalemate reporters and news cameras flocked to the remote area of Idaho, clamoring for interviews with Randy and Vicki. But the two refused to speak with any press except for local newspaper writer. They told him that the federal government was more concerned about shutting their mouths in about the illegal shotguns. In spite of the weavers, camera shyness, they were suddenly a top news story and people around the country were a buzz with the name Ruby Ridge some in favor of an all out siege and some who just wanted the government to leave the weavers alone by the summer of Nineteen ninety-two, the stalemate was starting to embarrass the federal government. Many. Officials believed it was setting a bad precedent that white separatist could barricade themselves on their land and refuse to cooperate. Pressure started to build for the US marshals to arrest. Randy and end the standoff. So on August Twenty First Nineteen ninety-two a hot dry Idaho summer day a group of US marshals outfitted themselves with camouflage military rifles and night vision scopes and entered the weavers property. That morning, they only wanted to scout the area before planning their next tactical operation. But at about eleven am the Weavers Yellow Labrador named striker started barking and took off toward the marshalls. The dog was followed closely by the weavers fourteen year. Old Son Sammy. Family friend twenty five year old Kevin Harris who each carried loaded rifles. The marshalls called for the kids to come get their dog but then another Marshall stood up from his hiding place behind a tree stump and within seconds bullets were flying who shot I has been disputed ever since the government contends that Kevin Harris, the weaver's friend shot I but Kevin maintained that one of the marshals shot the weavers dog I which triggered Sammy Weaver to yell you killed my dog you son of a bitch then young boy began firing. Either way a deadly shootout ensued leaving Sammy Weaver, one of the marshalls and the weavers dog dead. In the aftermath the marshalls evacuated the hillside carrying their dead comrade. And Kevin Harris raced back to the cabin to tell randy and Vicki what had happened. After that deadly confrontation, more news crews descended on Ruby Ridge overnight. Headlines. About the dead US Marshal lit up the airwaves and the next day on August twenty second. The FBI arrived at Ruby Ridge with modified rules of engagement. Because a federal agent had been killed, the bureau authorized their snipers to shoot to kill any adult in the possession of a firearm. Randy Weaver. Was Not aware of the lethal FBI orders when he Kevin Harris and the weavers oldest daughter lift their cabin to visit Sami stead body. When they arrived at the storage, shed a short distance from the main cabin, a bullet ripped through randy's arm. As inexperienced Green Beret Randy realized that the government must have positioned snipers around them. He yelled for the others to retreat to the main cabin. As. They dove inside another bullet rang out. This time cutting through Vicki Weaver's skull killing her instantly. She had been holding her infant daughter. Screams, echoed across the mountain as the weaver family realized what had happened. The children saw their mother's brains splattered on the entry way of the cabin and the bullet had lodged in Kevin Harris's arm causing massive blood loss. Over the next nine days, the standoff intensified. The FBI and federal government sent in more troops, armored personnel, carriers, and helicopters more and more news media showed up as well broadcasting the images around the world. To many people across the country, it looked like the US government was fighting a full-scale war against Randy Weaver, an American citizen would reportedly only sold to illegal shotguns. To militia groups and disaffected white man. Randy represented there 'cause he could very easily have been them. Finally on August Thirty First Nineteen, ninety, two, a fellow former green beret named James Bo Gritz convinced randy weaver to surrender. After eleven days, the violent siege was over. Many consider Ruby Ridge, the birth of the modern American militia. Movement. Much. Like the colonial minute men who gathered on the town green in Lexington modern militias believed they were under attack by a tyrannical force. But. Their enemy was not a monarch across the ocean but their own government and they decided there was only one appropriate response to train stockpile guns and be ready for the next standoff. Even outside of the militia movement, there was widespread public condemnation of the Ruby Ridge tragedy. Many Americans questioned the FBI's use of military style weapons and snipers against a US citizen. In response, a congressional commission was formed to investigate the mistakes that had been made and to revise the rules of engagement for federal. Standoffs. It seemed like progress was being made and the government had learned its lesson. Bought less than a year later, another tragedy unfolded leaving even more death and destruction in its wake. Coming up the FBI ATF lay siege to a religious compound, in Waco, Texas now back to the story. At nine thirty am on. February twenty eighth nineteen ninety-three only six months after the Ruby Ridge tragedy thirty-three-year-old David. Koresh. was leading prayer session at his religious compound. When he heard the thumping of helicopter blades overhead Kerouche was the leader of a sect of seventh day adventists called the branch Davidians. He and about one hundred of his followers lived on a seventy Acre commune a few miles outside of Waco Texas. For the past few weeks Koresh and his followers had noticed federal agents camped out at the end of their dusty driveway. And the previous day, the local mailman had tipped off that a news van was asking for directions to the compound. Recently Karesh had been under fire for allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct with groups, women, and children. But, the federal agents were sniffing around for another reason as well. The compound stockpiles of illegal firearms. The had been investigating the branch Davidians for nearly a year noting every shipment of explosives, grenades, machine guns that came into the compound and by February Twenty Eighth Nineteen Ninety three, they finally had a search warrant in hand. With the helicopter buzzing over the compound Karesh knew something was wrong. He called the procession off and told the women and children to take shelter. Karesh and some of the men went to the front door and windows in what they saw was shocking. He Caravan of unmarked vehicles came crunching down the dirt driveway. The men inside the cars look to be heavily armed. Similar to Ruby Ridge there are conflicting reports about who fired the first shot, but what followed was an intense firefight. The battle went on for close to an hour while the ATF agents tried to breach the compound from multiple locations but the branch Davidians were heavily armed and defended the building with everything they had. Then at about ten thirty, a M, the ATF agents ran out of ammunition. They hadn't expected Karesh to be so well supplied, and now there were pinned down. Correction as men kept shooting. The ATF was forced to ask a local sheriff to negotiate a ceasefire. Finally the branch Davidians allowed the ATF agents to evacuate with their wounded and dead. In. All four agents were dead and sixteen were injured. The branch Davidians had lost five men including two who had been executed by their own men because they were too injured to save. As, the Akron smell of gunpowder diffused from the area, the scene at Waco reverberated with echoes of. Ruby. Ridge. Within hours, the FBI hostage rescue team crisis negotiators, and heavily armed swat units arrived. News vans and protesters swarmed like locusts broadcasting images of the compound twenty, four seven. Over the next fifty days the American public became obsessed with Waco Texas, and it became the next battleground for the American. Militia Movement. Even though Karesh and the branch Davidians didn't see themselves as a militia per se they exhibited. One, they were a tight knit group led by a charismatic figurehead they stockpiled guns and explosives rehearsing for a future war. And like Randy Weaver Aryan, nations and many others. The branch Davidians held extreme religious beliefs. So Waco became a symbol of all militias in separatist organisations. If these Christians, in the middle of Texas could find the ATF and FBI. On. Their. Doorstep. Anyone could. At. First, it seemed like there was hope for a quick resolution. On the first night, caress allowed eighteen children to evacuate the compound. A few days later, three more emerged. But after that, there was very little movement. Karesh agreed to surrender four times but reneged each time. By mid April the FBI. was getting anxious to end the standoff. Not only was it costing the taxpayers close to one million dollars per day but the FBI hostage rescue team cited worsening conditions for children inside the compound. So a few minutes before six am on April nineteenth nineteen ninety-three the F. B. I. Hostage Rescue Team dispatched to tank like armored vehicles to the compound. Koresh and the branch Davidians scrambled for their guns and prepared for another firefight. But when the F. B. I.'s armored vehicles arrived at the building instead of firing their weapons, they started punching holes through the outer walls and began pumping tear gas inside. What happened next is disputed by both sides around noon flames became visible inside the compound. Government audio surveillance seemed to show that Koresh and his followers were using gasoline to light the building on fire. But surviving branch Davidians, and their supporters claimed that the FBI's tear gas canisters sparked the fires. Regardless. Within an hour, the entire branch Davidian compound was engulfed in flames. Fierce, Texas winds fueled the rapid spread and soon. The walls begin to collapse over the next hour. There were multiple small explosions inside the building along with POPs of bullets from burning stockpiles of ammunition. By when pm the roof of the compound completely collapsed. Rescue personnel eventually unearthed over seventy bodies of dead men, women and children inside the charred remains of the compound. Many of whom were shot either in suicide or in mercy executions by fellow cult numbers. It was another American tragedy this time on an even more massive scale. and. Watching the events unfold on television in Michigan was a twenty four year old US Army veteran named Timothy. McVeigh. The fifty foot flames flicker in his eyes and ignited a deep desire for revenge against the US government. Much like the haymarket affair protesters in eighteen, eighty, six mcvay witnessed what he thought was law enforcement running rampant in targeting civilians. But to protest the RETALI-, he didn't plan to target them directly with a small hand-held bomb encased in lead. No he had something much bigger in mind. Thanks for tuning into conspiracy theories. Will be back Wednesday with our second episode about the Oklahoma City bombing. You can find all episodes of conspiracy theories and all other park originals for free on spotify not only the spotify already have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like conspiracy theories for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream conspiracy theories on spotify, just open the APP and type conspiracy theories in the search bar until then remember the truth isn't always the best story and the officials story is always the truth. Conspiracy theories was created by Max Cutler in his park estudios original executive producers include. Ron Cutler sound design by Anthony Vasic with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Travis Clark. This episode of conspiracy theories was by Adam to Silva with writing assistance by Ali wicker and Stars Molly Brandenburg and Carter Roy.

US Randy FBI Ruby Ridge US army Militia Movement Randy Weaver Vicki Weaver Oklahoma City Texas Timothy McVeigh Haymarket Square Davidians Idaho Koresh. Waco Oklahoma marshalls spotify Kevin Harris
179 - Ruby Ridge

Timesuck with Dan Cummins

2:35:24 hr | 10 months ago

179 - Ruby Ridge

"Ruby Ridge the site of an eleven day armed standoff with the former Green Beret and airy nation sympathizer randy weaver. His young family and a friend named Kevin Harris on one side and the US marshals local law enforcement in the FBI and the other the Weavers Kevin were holed up in the isolated. Weaver cabin in Boundary County Idaho about seventy five miles from where I sit and record this episode in the Suck Dungeon here in court Elaine. The weavers had long feared the power of government. They moved Idaho from Iowa. In part to get away from the government and away from society in general they wanted to isolate themselves from an outside world increasingly began to view as unjust and immoral and then in one thousand nine hundred to the outside world came to them. The firefight that stood atop this northern Idaho Ridge kicked off modern American militia. Movement is been pointed to by many the sign that a corrupt federal government wants nothing more than to take your guns your property the Ruby Ridge. Siege is viewed by the more conspiracy minded as blatant evidence that the new world order is real and that they have no problem killing innocent. American citizens who get align and refuse to do what they're told but was the standoff. That simple was it simply government agencies wildly abusing their power and killing innocent Americans. Who hadn't done a damn thing wrong? No it was not that simple. Both sides of the standoff made numerous terrible decisions the US government did not handle the Ruby Ridge siege as well as they could have mistakes. Were made. Maybe some power was abused however randy was far from innocent and he and his family also made terrible mistakes. That needlessly. Put themselves in. Harm's way this whole standoff. So incredibly avoidable. Today's stories the story of self fulfilling prophecy. Sometimes when you worry about something coming true so much that you start basing the bulk of your life choices around preparing for how to deal with his upcoming truth you end up making this thing. Come true when otherwise wouldn't have come true. You create your own worst nightmare if you live your life in constant fear of the government being out to get you and you get so afraid. Start Making preparations for the government to come get you preparations that include going to meetings where people talk about overthrowing said governments and then you make illegal weapons to prepare for battle against said government. Guess what now. That government has a reason to come for you. The weavers had paranoid visions of the biblical fight for their lives against the government and then their paranoia manifested itself into reality. Randy's fourteen year old son ended up getting shot in the back and killed. His wife was shot in the head by a sniper and killed while holding their ten month. Old Baby a federal agent was also shot and killed. There's lots of unpack in today's Northern Idaho. Everything that could go wrong did go wrong. What did the US government mess up? What did the weavers mess up? And how could this entire situation have been avoided addition of time suck? This is Michael McDonald. And you're listening to time suck listings. Happy Monday meets acts. Have you president's Day? Hope you have the day off. I'm Dan Komen to suck mass. The Mush mouth wonder the Lord sucking ten the suck tater and well working. Wait time for time suck yes. I have a cold. I voice sounds off A throat coating a lot of tea. A lot of medicine in my system. And I'm going to do my best to make this intelligible today. 'cause I've I very much care about today's topic. I care about all the topics but today I have you'll find out I relate to this one in different ways More than most of the topics. We've done I hope. The couples who suck together stay together had a happy Valentine's Day Lucina hopes you fucked. Hiller Safina he'll Nimrod praise bojangles and glory. Beat a triple m. you feel a bit too much. Angst put a little yacht rock and see if you can keep in Matt according to the Suck Dungeon again today and Beautiful Quarterlane Idaho. Get not far from where. Today's story takes place record with. Reverend Dr Joe H C J Paisley. Thanks to all the fine folks who came out to Brooklyn in Washington. Dc The other weekend. I didn't feel well but you made the show's oblast repacked. And so much fun hoping I had fun in Huntington Beach is past weekend hoping my cold broke up trying to stay ahead on his schedule recording episodes the week before they drop their better when they're not last minute The toxic thoughts to our heads of St Louis. This week where we have a couple of Solo shows already added a third show on Saturday looking forward to those shows and hoping I'll be back in the row show. I better be. I'll be sad if I'm not then. It's up to Salt Lake City where multiple shows also sold out. It's been awesome. Third show also added on Saturday. Then it's off to Nashville Huntsville Alabama Philly Honolulu so many more place tour dates Dan Dot TV. You can also follow me on instagram. At Dan comes comedy to get some standup clips. Putting your feet every week and show announcements and more and goofiness and Google's Dot Alpha male this year's tour so far the best one ever I'm joined the shit out of this ride Hail Nimrod Got Some Lady dirtbags in the bad magic merged door this week. Bad MAGIC MERGE DOT com the class of Hell Yearbook series continues with Belle Gunness. Casper Night Jeffrey Dahmer. Logan got so creative with these we can so many compliments on the merge lately out on the road. We have so much cool. Funky stuff got blankets tote bags and like just just unique weird cool stuff so proud of the store and that's enough on announcements burn through now. Let's get to one of my favorite episodes of time suck so far against WanNa hit really close to home here pip. Ruby Ridge is beautiful. Let's start there. If you like miles. And miles a thick pine forest and wildlife like Elk Moose. So many deer black bear the occasional grizzly mountain lions coyotes Bald Eagles. Hawks Otters beavers Sony more critters boundary. County Idaho is your place. If you like fishing for Rainbow Trout cutthroat trout large and small mouth. Bass Brook Trout Blue Gill Perch crappie catfish tether types of freshwater fish will boundary counties got. It got almost thirteen. Hundred Square miles of rugged mountains pristine lakes and streams total population of less than twelve thousand people. Lot of land not a lot of people living on that land biggest town in the county seat is Bonner's ferry. Bonner's ferry has a whopping twenty five hundred people living in it give or take a few there. Idaho's most friendly town. According to Bonner's ferry dot dot gov revitalize their downtown with improved parking which. I'm guessing means they now have an additional three or four parking spots. I can't imagine parking's a real problem. Before the revitalization vow to ask somebody in Bonner's ferry who revitalized their town instead of a company. I almost expect them to say like a single person's name downtown looks great. Who cleaned his place? Up Bar Wagner ducker two years about things. You did a hell of a job. He's a one. Woman wrecking crew known. Boundary County can work cat in a dozer imports mudlark. Barb Wagner Ruby Ridge is less than twenty miles from Bonner's ferry. The southernmost of four mountain ridges extend east from the bottleneck Roman nose mountain range towards the Kootenai River valley and the Northern Idaho panhandle important industrial home with a Kootenai tribe of American Indians. Caribou Ridge lives lies north of it in the area between them drains into Ruby Creek. Local maps of identified. Ruby Ridge is an extension of Caribou Ridge but press reported on the standoff used. The federally recognized name as the Crow flies. About thirty miles. Fifty kilometers south of British Columbia Canada locals refer to this part of the world is God's country it's ridiculously beautiful part of the world with four distinct seasons. And if I talk anymore about I might have ended with the price on my head for encouraging more people to move up there and ruin it. So don't move. Northern Idaho fucking terrible to Shithole especially. Don't move their. Californian Californian is about the worst four letter word. Other isn't a four letter word. You can say northern L. Because Californians are almost single-handedly fucking up the entire real estate market which still extremely cheap compared to California. I mean super expensive. So don't even try it. Don't even look. Don't look real estate APPS. Come on and save your money. Don't come. Don't go there northern also randy weaver. The man. Today's tale revolves around decided to move. You wanted to get away from society like a lot of folks northern Idaho lot of antisocial types in northern Idaho. I I grew up in on the edge of Central Northern Idaho. It's very much the same down where I grew up ribbons. A lot of people who are friendly like Boehner's fairies website proclaims. But that friendliness is served with an undercurrent of state of fuck off my property. I Move Northern Idaho for shindigs and hootenanny. People want to be left alone. There's a reason randy weaver and his family moved to Boundary County Idaho Not Los Angeles County California like. They wanted to be left alone. You're not going to be left alone if you do things like I duNno. Ignore your court dates. America's the land of the free but also land like all other lands of laws and if laws have been followed there would be no tale to tell about the Ruby Ridge siege. Today that being said today story is not as simple as just ignored. A court date right. There is a right way to wrong way to enforce the law. Lot of people believe that the law was enforced about his wrong could be randy. Weaver's Ruby Ridge to buckle. I don't know that they're entirely wrong. That I disagree or I'm sorry. I don't know that I agree with that assessment. Either though let's get to know the star of today's show a bit now. He came to believe what he believed his beliefs of play very large role in his standoff with government. Before we go into a more proper timeline where we can go over all the nitty gritty details of the nineteen ninety-two Ruby Ridge standoff Randall Claude. Randy weaver was declared a healthy newborn baby boy on January. Third Nineteen forty eight. He was one of four children. Born to Clarence and WILMA weaver farming couple from Va. Liska Iowa Ital- mostly no for the BALLISTA axe murders of June tenth or June Eleventh Nineteen twelve when eight people were killed with an axe by unknown assailants. I tell that tale in episode nineteen. Oh my other weekly podcast. Scared to death. If you WANNA hear it I I heard a really good story but I may be unbiased. Randy's Dad Clarence was an agricultural supply salesman who had three daughters before Randall was born his mother. Wilma ran the home and there were a deeply religious family. They were so deeply religious that a hard time finding a local denomination who matched their strict and conservative views of Fundamental Christianity. Which is saying a lot when you live. Small mid Western farm town of less than two thousand people the family bounced around between Evangelical Presbyterian and Baptist Churches of the area trying to find a preacher who got it and actually I say that they lived in Ballista. That's not exactly true. They lived in grant. Iowa a satellite town of about two hundred people at the time Fifteen miles from ballista fullest. Goes where you'd go to school where you get your groceries or go to Church would you know? Go Watch a single screen or a movie. The single screen movie theater and live in an even smaller town probably says a lot about the weaver family didn't WanNa live in the big city of Alaska. They preferred the quieter Burg of grant. I'm speculating here for sure but being from an area kind of like this. That is often how the story goes growing up in grant randy hit from his sisters played. Little League Baseball and goofed off with local farm boys and by goofed off. I mean gave him hand jobs behind the Old Anderson Barn. They call him handy. Randy the nickname of Handy Randy in the stigma. That came with that nickname. You know when you have a family who super-conservative religious is largely what would lead Handy Randy to move to Idaho many years later the small conservative Iowa town once you are known as Handy Randy. You're always handy randy. When the FBI made their siege many years later continually taunting weaver by calling him. Handy Randy would seriously escalate the situation for four days. Straight one agent after another day and night. Were chanting non stop through the loudspeakers Handy Randy making the boys. Feel Dandy Handy Randy. Just have to give them candy. It was terrible and it also never happened. It was never nickname record of him having sexual relations with any kind with any boys dudes and if he did and he started listening to the podcast. I imagine he stopped listening a few moments ago and is now on the phones lawyer. Sorry Mr Randy Handy Randy. Weaver I'm insane. Never really cracks me up because I'm an idiot. Randy was very religious and conservative. You weren't allowed to be anything other than being out really religious conservative in the weaver. Home his father Clarence couldn't have been more of the sun when he professes faith in Jesus Christ at age eleven years later. Clarin said of Randy. He was good boy always believing. God always did right by him. We didn't stand for anything else. Rainy start working in the fields when he was ten. His Dad was never so proud as the day. Randy stood up to a local farmer. Who tried to pay them less than bigger boys for the same amount of Work Randy said. I was always a little kid in school and I hated a bully his hatred of bullies. We helped fuel his later standoff with the US government nineteen sixty two. When Randy was fourteen. His Father Clarence moved the family north to a great two story house with the Square Post Porch on Vine Street and Jefferson Iowa. Bow Fifty Miles from Fort. Dodge for dodge is the county seat of Webster Iowa small cities along the river home of former NBA player. Nick Collison former Iowa governor Cyrus Carpenter and a number of other notable authors athletes playwrights politicians and more Jefferson Iowa. Where the weavers would actually live is a county Greene County Iowa about four thousand people George Gallup inventor of the Gallup poll from Jefferson Doreen Wilber nineteen seventy two Olympic gold medalists in archery and And Not Nearly. As many other notable people are are from. Jefferson is our from Dutch city. The weavers they liked the small town. Jefferson was probably as big as they can handle twenty times the size of Jefferson was also the perfect time for Handy Randy to escape his dark past. Why do I keep doing that? No-one calling that. I was heated for real this time. Randy thrive in Jefferson. He was popular in school. He had a good sense of humor. He could joke around with anybody he can fit in. He was charming and funny. He spent time in Jefferson Tinker with his cars working The summers in the fields having a few beers here his buddies it was like growing up on happy days. One of his friends would remember. It was Friday night football. Get the crops out of the field. Wait for the next parade and I bet he had some kick ass malts and Pancakes at Local Soda Fountain. I Bet Jefferson was a cool place to grow but it's still is randy attended the Presbyterian Church Youth Group on Sunday School. Decent Grades Played Baseball and football local high school. He graduated in nineteen sixty six in Iowa central community college with a brand new school to time driving fifty miles to class every morning. Classes were in Fort Dodge. He was good hardworking young man. Although most of his fellow IC- students were farm kids in white like him for dodge also at a small black population and Randy. You said you've got along with everyone. Regardless of the color of their skin interesting considering what believes he would develop later about race and who he would associate with later randy. Weaver was Oreg Iowa who didn't cause problems for anyone. He was wiry and strong long summers of farm work. He worked as a school bus driver while he was going to community college. Hilson met his future wife and Jefferson. Friends of the couple would later say they were perfect for each other. The all American couple but they broke up after a few months because randy wasn't ready to settle down all handy randy so that's wild oats to sell. You GET BIGGEST. Freda concept with cruel handy randy jokes. When the Vietnam War began to escalate. We're dropped out of community. College joined the. Us Army in October of nineteen sixty eight. He was stationed Fort Bragg North Carolina with a lot of other dudes close quarters where he did not do any Handy Dandy Randy if you catch. My Drift Randy was trained as a combat engineer and volunteered for airborne training he passed rigorous training required for Special Forces. He became a green beret. His Dad Clarence couldn't have been more proud and it should have been more proud right. Become a green breads. Hell the accomplishment in his training Randy Lerner survive on almost nothing to make explosives prepare fortifications. You also worked at the construction equipment. Operator he was a good soldier. Rose to the rank of sergeant qualifying as an expert with the m fourteen rifle he qualified as a sharpshooter with M16 and the forty five caliber handgun is military. Record was spotless. He was given a national defense service medal. And a parachute batch. It is highly trained as he was river. Never did designed to do. He never got to go to Vietnam. There were jobs needed to be done stateside even during that conflict and he did what he was asked. He was by all accounts an excellent soldier. His experience in the military ironically also began to erode his faith in the US government. He was raised the flag as hard as any other. God fear and Apple Pie and baseball loving American but the military was not weaver. Thought it was going to be. He was reportedly disillusioned by the grayness and the corruption. He saw on base once he told friends he was part of an army intelligence drug. Bust on base. He noticed that all the confiscated drugs were not turned over to the authorities. Like they were supposed to be if you follow the law to the letter. Randy was pleased. He told US superior. And that's when he did tell that superior that's appeared told him to mind his own business he was treated as if he had done. Something wrong by reporting this experience did not sit well with him. He decided to you know his his fellow. Soldiers were Bullshit Patriots that they were all in on it. In nineteen seventy weaver. Security have relieved from Fort Bragg returned to his hometown for visit back with things wholesome and he ran back into his old high school sweetheart. Vicky Jordan Johnson. He went out with Vicky Jordan almost every night when he got back and that's how she got the nickname sticky sticky sticky sticky at hand. You Randy No. That's not true cat goddamn again here. Lucina stop stops Jerry back to juvenile. You know humor. Full the hand jobs and sticky finger banks. I'm a grown man hosted very serious podcast. Now Randy soon gave. Vicky ring quickly declared that they were engaged. Are you crazy? Julie asked her sister Julia Courtesan. You just met this guy but then Vicky reminded Julie that they dated before right several years earlier but the timing wasn't right then now it was and they quickly got married little more about that in a bit in October nineteen seventy-one following three years of duty Randy. We received an honorable discharge from the army. He was he was ready to go after stand. The army removed home. Grew as curly hair out. Long grew up some wicked seventy sideburns and a decent stash and then he was walking down. The aisle with Vicky Slur. Little bit more about Vicky Vicky was born June twentieth nineteen forty nine year and a half after Randy in house on a lake between the central Iowa. Town of Fort Dodge Colville little town of around six hundred. It was once home to a number of get ready to be shocked coalmines. Yeah crazy right. Colville Iowa used to have a lot of coal mines. It doesn't appear that they're still active but they could be a lot of web INFO about Colville general right now of Vicki's father. David Jordan was the third generation of his family to live in the family home but when he moved his beautiful twenty two year old wife Jeannie into the house in Nineteen forty-five they still didn't have electricity. Electricity came to the family home. A little while after Vicky was born. What a different time and imagine without electricity. I can't I wouldn't be doing this goodbye. Podcasts Vicky had two younger siblings Laney and Julie and a whole mess of cousins running around that he was a talented and attractive child born into a family of talented and attractive kids and according to a relative's even amongst these other kids she's still stood out for being extra awesome. Those who knew her. Grownups said you can do anything. She was a smart curious. Child always reading. She could so cook knit Finished furniture she can simply pick up things that ever you know bothering to study them from the beginning of parents said they felt like they were having conversations with a little adult. The Jordan is like the weavers were also a religious family but unlike the they weren't all all on the same religious page dad. David was devoted member of the reformed Mormon Church we learned about that branch back in the Suck on Mormonism and genie was a congregational EST and on Sundays. The kids went with dad to the local are. Lds Church. While gene stayed home. Interesting I feel like traditionally that usually goes other way around now saying it should but moms usually seem to win out over Dad's when it comes to things like where's the family going to church. But you know I guess I guess. Dad put his reorganized Church of Jesus. Christ latter-day Saints Notice Community Christ Church. Now foot doubt church kids went to the LDS Sunday school. Dad went to a Bible class where he talked about current events church and then when David left I'm guessing everyone L. Stare Talk Shit about his wife not coming with the Church and how sad it must be for his family and dear. God what was wrong with her. Doesn't she cared about her? Soul living in Iowa Vicky witness. Us government is starting to power in a way. That didn't sit well with a few times when she was a tiny tot. Her family's favorite tree was torn down to make way for the electrification of their home. And then later the family farm itself was put on the chopping block strongly against her. Family's wishes cut off to make way for a new highway imminent domain like Randy. She didn't like bullies either and she felt that she had seen the government. Behaves like a bully on a few occasions on a few occasions Vicky did well in school mostly getting A.'s. She tended the same. I was central Community College. That Randy did after she graduated from High School in Nineteen Sixty seven two years later. Vicki graduated from ICC with an associate's degree in business took a job as a secretary at sears back when sears said secretaries and she ran back in durant a weaver who is not known as Handy Randy but was known to family and friends at times. Pete not sure how Randall Becomes Pete. Especially when you're middle name is Claude already had numerous name to pick from and they went with Pete. How WEIRD NICKNAMES? By the way like to Joe pays the everything before. It took a job here that he would ever be known to some as micro pain or the horse or Horse Johnson to others. I strongly doubt it when I was in Washington. Dc recently at a guy shows who asked me to sign up the first buddy squishy since squishy could make the and when he said that naturally. I said I'm sorry. Did you say squishy? He's like yeah and I was like. How the hell does someone get the nickname of squishy? Not The answer. A look creepy and it was creepy than I expected. His Buddy said that when he was a kid school janitor picked him up for a hug and then told him he felt squishy. I Shit you not and I was like you're making this up. He's like nope. The other kids started calling me squishy and the name stuck and it sticks to this day. I said the janitor sounds creepiest fuck. He said that that's what him and the rest of his friends. All told squishy squishy. Who Super Cool? Well if you're listening squishy. He doesn't sound cool. You Might WanNa leave town. You might want to start a new life and never talked about that janitor again. I Holy Shit Dude I mean good for you embracing it but squishy come on as worse than Handy Randy back. Vicky now regularly Vicky not sticky Vicky November nineteen seventy-one Randy Victoria get married ceremony at the First Congregational Church and Fort Dodge Iowa in an an attempt to impress and or PS Vicki's family. The couple arranges for two ministers conduct the ceremony. A minister from the reorganized Church of Jesus. Christ latter-day Saints and Congressional is Pastor so super nice move on radios part classy move bending over backwards to appease the laws stroking both off classic. Handy Randy I. I'm so sorry. Jokes worn thin. It's all I can think about every time I talk about anything about him. Okay focused after the wedding randy and Vicki move across the State is here falls college channel around Forty Thousand. Fine I will folks randy plan to use his. Gi Bill alone to go to college at Northern Iowa University. Vicky was planning to work as a secretary for a while. Then hopefully you know say goodbye tour day job and be a housewife and mother. And it is a bummer. That more people can't do that anymore. Thanks how much the economy in the. Us has shifted since the seventies thanks to wages that have been way too stagnant compared to the cost of rent mortgages healthcare higher education more tragic survive on just one income. If that's the preference right it was things cost less So great for the kids. One doesn't have to work can be fulltime parent homemaker which I do realize this shila work so shout out to all the MOMS and dads out there who are able to do that especially if you love it. I'm pretty career oriented myself. I've known for years that as much as I love my kids and I love this shit out of my son Kite. Donald Munro The path of homemaker was not ideal for me but I have enormous respect and admiration for homemakers. What you're able to give your kids magical hoping take a lot of prior to that. I don't feel like this society values it as much as it used to. I think you should take a lot of pride in that. You're appreciated immensely by some of us. In Cedar Falls Randy Enrolls at the university northern Iowa to study criminal justice ironically in nineteen seventy two he wanted to become an FBI agent or joined the secret service to agencies he would come into a standoff with later in life so he can help weed out corruption that he saw on the government however after only two semesters dropped out because tuition was too expensive. If only could worked out his life's path would have been very different. He would have followed a different trajectory trajectory. Odd Czar after dropping out of school randy got Wayne to Amway which I don't think he's a real great sign and I know some people have made a lot of money and that for sure Pyramids game but getting into Amway. Always every time reeks of extreme desperation. To me again. If it's working for you I mean God bless you. You don't know what is attained jobs the pyramid scheme where the more Handy Randy's allow the more money you make off the people who you talked into slang all those handiwork. I Such a child. If you don't know what a amway is. Amway is short for American way space just outside of Grand Rapids Michigan. Where I have unsuccessfully made fun of Amway many times over the years to the crowd's dismay it's an American multilevel marketing company. That sells held beauty and home care products. And the more you get other people to buy products that you know under you the more you make that if someone you know you if you're able to sign up somebody to get other people to buy products from them. You make a little money though sales as well if they sign up other people under them to get other people to buy stuff like you continue to make an increasingly smaller percentage as it goes beneath. It's a classic pyramid scheme and Randy got real into forbid he talked Vicky into solid. He talked to other family members into doing it as Amway tends to do. If you get if you you know you have a relative you've got an amway it's like do shut the fuck up about Amway. I get it find a buyer stupid vitamins if you just stopped talking about it but then it doesn't go as well as you wanted to now. After a few months you know when he doesn't catch on like wildfire his love affair with Amway's over and they're nineteen seventy-two he applies for and gets a high paying job at a local John. Deere tractor factory in the neighboring city of Waterloo in industrial town. About seventy thousand people butts up against Cedar falls in Eastern Iowa and he made good money work for John. Deere a company headquartered just two hours away in Moline Illinois. He was a young dude longhair hair. He's got a sweet stash price in fucking sick aviator shades bell-bottoms rock and new sports car. Took him talking about my dad right. Now this is my dad. Seventies young blue-collar dude sweet stash new corvette ready had burnt orange. Corvette for awhile that a triumph roadster to forties the fuck appro. Were you driving Mercury Cougar? Chevy Nova okay colors puck. Come on Bro. Let your chest hair out pinky ring. Hop into a Datsun motherfucker. Aw in addition to his sweet Datsun. Two forty got my neighbor had one of those grown up and I did think NATO fucking sick car. Someday I'M GONNA have a Datsun. Two forty RABATA trucks motorcycles. He's buying snowmobiles and fishing life is good. Life is good right now for the weavers they could've stayed in this lane. We wouldn't be talking about rain Vicky. They're still young the buy a house a well kept rancher. In Cedar Falls killing it. Randy is the envy of many of the people around him. Crushing Life Smooth sales probably rock a little bit of Jim Crow. She out of that. Sweet Dawson blasted off that eight track and his bad bad. Leroy Brown says manning the whole damn town battery Oakington home. Mean the junk. Our Dog fucking hitting Florida's off the stop sign. Come on roles windows down Bro. Let smooth breeze kiss those sweet banks Weaver was also idealistic family. Members saw him as an exuberant man who threw his energy into whatever came his way. He's always going one hundred and fifty miles an hour and whatever direction he was heading whether it was amway but there was sports cars or his new obsession in the mid seventies silver and precious metals. Yup Randy Guy. Way Too precious in the mid seventies and again. I swear I this so many times in this sock. I'm like my talking about my dad or my talk about Randy Weaver Radio believed the dollar would soon become devalued since it wasn't backed by gold standard and precious metals. Were going to be the only way for people to survive the. Us effectively abandoned the gold standard in nineteen thirty three and then president. Nixon completely severed the link between the dollar and gold in nineteen seventy one part of what was called the Nixon Shock. Way Too complicated to explain here My Dad used to talk about investing in precious metals growing up. He talked about the value of the dollar plummeting due to not being backed by gold. Has that happened This is a good excuse me to look into this. We my dad got sort of. This was literally hiding gold. Dust in the walls of the house at one point If you invested a thousand dollars in the market in one thousand nine hundred seventy one for example for even easy numbers if you invested in the Dow Jones like if you got yourself a piece of an index fund just rode the General Economy of the. Us You'd have almost twenty one thousand. I'm sorry to have roughly twenty one thousand one hundred sixty eight dollars today according to online calculators. Like if you didn't touch any of the money if you just reinvested the dividends if you invested a thousand dollars in gold in nineteen seventy one or seventy three seventy three seventy three. I changed it and I've got to change one of my notes so just for accuracy talking about nineteen seventy-three through two thousand twenty so economy. One Thousand Equals Twenty. One thousand one hundred sixty eight. Golden seventy-three Equals a thousand dollars. Equals three thousand dollars thirty-seven Today so very different so goalby. Ub Good investment but not even nearly as good as betting on the overall economy which was kind of like betting on the dollar all the paranoia of the economy collapsing because the dollar is backed by precious metal has thus far been completely unjustified. And how does this episode because you know that knowledge only make him super duper sat at this point for the rest of the historically over the long run betting on the overall strength to the US economy has been a very good investment as the price of silver? I know we're talking about gold and silver. Here is the price of silver. Begin to climb in the seventies randy gave silver medallions and coins out. His gifts talks family members and new investing heavily the super unfortunate because in the late eighties. The prices silver collapsed. Whoops the prices over Brown's reached a high of almost one hundred eighteen dollars in one thousand nine hundred by ninety three had fallen to less than seven dollars. An ounce a well randy and Vicki stop cared about the price of silver. They'd instead began to focus on something that has never helped. At a single person's life ever despite millions and millions of people being obsessed with it over the last couple of Millennia Doomsday Prophesy UA Doomsday yes. The weavers got real into worried about the imminent end of the world. The second coming couple began to harbor some pretty diehard fundamentalist beliefs in the late seventies. Those beliefs were hardened over the next decade and a half. Bickford always been religious but now she began to study the Bible a religiously Pun not intended Jacob. She began to really study it. She grew positive that she was being led to study because God wanted her to know that the apocalypse was imminent right here. We go again win. Has this mentality worked out for a single fucking person ever thinking. The world is about to end making life. Decisions based on that end has literally never worked out for anyone. This new mentality of the weavers feels very connected to the early obsession with invested in silver because precious metals are going to hold onto the value of the dollar. Because the economy's going to collapse right the governor falling apart the world's on everything's falling apart this mentality. The military is morally bankrupt. Everything's bad starting to get a real good picture of the weavers here and it reminds me of my dad's friends round Riggins Idaho in the mid late nineties. Everything's corrupt everything's going shit. I better prepare for the for the end of the world. Thank God the world's GonNa end is such a terrible place in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. The Weaver family is introduced to a book that would help ruin their lives. called the late. Great Planet Earth Written by Hal Lindsey and CC Carlson. The book was very popular at the time among so-called truth Zegers with backgrounds. Like the weavers it was written almost like a long letter directly to readers. Randy and Vicki stopping occasion to ask. They were getting it. If all the pieces were starting to come together. The book introduced thousands of people to do is day interpretations of Old Testament prophecies at a time when the country is a whole was in the middle of a born again movement. The huge bestseller convinced many that they were living in the end times in this book. I'm attempting to step aside and let the Prophets Speak Lindsay. Cc wrote if my readers care to listen. They are given the freedom to accept or reject the conclusions will the book ascribed modern definitions. Too Old a new testament word. For Instance Gog the evil empire spoken of in Ezekiel was for sure of the Soviet Union. Now and the ten horns of the beast from revelations describe obviously open your eyes sheep uil the ten nations of the Common Market of Europe. All the signs are right there hiding in plain sight the book show how. Biblical prophecy could be used to predict an upcoming Arab Israeli war. That would definitely trigger a nuclear holocaust between the US and the Soviet Union and for sure bring about Armageddon and there was like a ninety nine point nine nine nine percent chance that all this was definitely GonNa happen no later than nineteen eighty nine the eighties. That was it the world would go on no further and again. I feel like I'm talking about my dad. My Dad's father. My grandfather was a pentecostal minister. Who got real into this exact type of shit? I'm positive he was very familiar with how Lindsey and convince my dad growing up to the world was definitely GonNa end in the eighties. My Dad says that was the one of the main reasons he did not bother going to college. What was the point? Your Bachelor's or master's degree wasn't GonNa be worth anything you know when God and his minions be. In battling the devil on an apocalyptic plainfield of earth are just GonNa be a big nightmare. So why bother? What has this. How Lindsey pieces ship and since the nineteen seventies still living still living despite constantly talking about the world being about to end any second still making a plenty money selling more books. The nerve this douchebag telling everyone the world's GonNa getting all kinds of people terrified people who do that then don't properly planned for the future because there will be one and then of course. The world has not ended and the finances of a lot of people who thought it was going to end or totally fucked up like you're not exactly Max out your IRA or your 401k. Or folks combined investment properties. If you think the world's GonNa it right but dick heads like how Lindsey. They end up doing just fine. When their prophecies failed to come to fruition right after their predictions do not come to pass. They just sell more books. About how the world is going to end. Now it's infuriating. Hey people like how Linzie House also the author and popular of the popular. Satan is alive and well on planet or that was a big hit nineteen seventy-two Fun Book. About how a new age spiritualism was for sure satanic by John. Watch out for that hippie trying to he crystals that's the devil. He's put down the pitchfork and now he's picked up some Zeppelin records. How also wrote the nineteen eighties countdown to Armageddon first published in nineteen eighty two There's a new world coming publishing is eighty four and Satan. You can suck my cock published sometime last year. Jk He did write the final battle published in nineteen ninety-five. I wonder if that book has an intro. That is just a huge apology. For convincing everyone the world was gonna end many years earlier. He published Apocalypse Code. Nineteen Ninety seven planet earth. The final chapter. I mean you you get the picture here. Ninety nine eight. He published many other stupid. Use useless harmful books. And he's still around. Today he's still a fire and brimstone dickhead still talking about the world ending If you don't mind I'd like to take a few minutes to shit all over his ignorant spiteful harmful believes in today's idiots of the Internet Internet for today's comments I chose posts from underneath the video published less than a year ago on. How Own Youtube Channel Are you? He's up there in years but he's still kicking around putting out messages. They're out on the Youtube. This was published on March fourteenth. Two Thousand Nineteen titled how Lindsey Report Update in Armageddon King of the north of course is video has armageddon. The title dude stays on brand. It's house the same stupid shit. He's always been saying this entire fucking worthless life that the world is a debt of sin. God is not happy about it. The signs of the end times are all around us. Jesus coming back second and I'M GONNA say some hateful stuff but if you stick around until the end of the segue comes from a place to love honestly especially a place of love for Christians. Use a ROB Sirnak posts. How Lindsey stay strong? Love your godly counsel. I read late. Great Planet Earth One Thousand Nine Hundred. Eighty s countdown to Armageddon. You are a biblical genius and you and US and used of God to give. I don't know what he's trying to say they're very poorly written says your biblical genius and you give. People Hoping Scary Times. They said some stuff that makes no sense Jewish. God bless you. How is how a genius rob? He thought the eighty s were the countdown to Armageddon and he was fucking way off. That's the opposite of genius. He's thirty years late in counting. The book was entitled the countdown to Armageddon It was titled The nineteen eighties countdown to Armageddon. And you think he's a genius okay. Another user with an account name of Dr Keith concl- and Times Bible prophecy posts. Of course Jesus is coming soon. All caps in about fifteen exclamation points. How Soon Dr Keith? Nineteen Eighty Soon. Nice Channel Name by the way man ideas like viruses the infect and they spread. I'm guessing. How is the guy who infected Dr Keith? And now who knows how many others. Keith infected checked Dr Kista Youtube channel did some Google? It even found his facebook profile and no mention of what he has a doctorate and strongly assuming if he indeed does have a doctorate. It was given to him via a non accredited online institution. Going to go out on a limb and say didn't come from seven plus years of rigorous academic study at a brick and mortar institution guessing. Game for replace it gets a little cavalier. There used the term. Dr User Andrew Zico doesn't care from some disrespect. He finds the Common Thread Coming Towards Hal that I did not find myself but he posts for you. That disrespected this man of God. I feel very sad. How confused you are. Hopefully the Lord changes you because he has brought many to Christ. Jesus Andrew seemed like a nice guy. Why are you wasting your time defending this jackass? There's a lot of great Christian ministers out there. Go and find one of those defend them defend their message of love and forgiveness and of doing your best to live a righteous life while understanding that you're still prone to suffering from the human condition but that's okay because God still has love for you. Go find the dude. Appreciate about that getaway for how Lindsey user. Cynthia writes Dr Lindsay. My son is gay. He's an atheist also. He says the Bible isn't true. He was raised better than that. I don't know what to do. He's an intelligent man. He refuses to hear anything about God. Maybe you have some answers for me right. Yes technically house. Also doctor if he caught that Dr Lindsay there in nineteen ninety four. He earned a doctorate his doctorate of theology from the California Graduate School of Theology which is now known as Haven University. It's a real place but if you've got a doctor from them You're not a real doctor. Their website lists ten faculty members. Roughly total get the fuck. Outta here with that bullshit. Pretend that your doctor devalued the title. Real doctors worked so hard to attain. And Haven you. You'RE GONNA study one interpretation of the Bible from guessing about. I don't know six months now. Say Super Easy but it's not the same as having a PhD in mathematics. Or Botany or medicine or English lit or almost anything at all. Your doctor Levin Asterix behind it. Like having a doctorate in Crypto. Zoology or ghosts or anything else. You can't scientifically proves real now. Not Saying God is it real. I'm saying you can't prove it. In the same way that you can prove like limestone Israel or that horse is a real you can study geology scientifically you can study veterinary medicine in a different way than theology is just a pet peeve. Cynthia please stopping shitty right. Love your sounded. Hope that if God exists he'll understand. It's either that or judge him for the rest of his or your life increase the obvious tension between the two of you and deprive him of a mother's unconditional. Love is that we want. You're not going to convert him to doesn't work like that. Let the dream die. Science has proven over and over again and homosexuality is not a choice so pull your head out of the Dark Ages. Letty believe what he wants to believe. You can go to church. He can go to starbucks at the gym. And then you can meet up afterwards for a nice mother Sun Bridge where we can talk to you about his dating life and you can try not to think about where your baby boy is putting his dick all right. How does not have answers for you? Stop asked him Cynthia he should have lost all his credibility on January. First nineteen ninety or the latest January first nineteen ninety-one if you're one of those real anal retentive nitpickers who refuse to acknowledge nine hundred ninety s being part of the ninety S. Like almost everyone else user dwayne Williams spend less time watching how more time studying history he writes as a society. We're becoming more violent by the day. Anyone we disagree with. It's almost like we'd be willing to kill them. Because of their opinion absolutely no love of God or for our fellow man. Only hate three words. Few DWAYNE VLAD. The impaler things are better. They used to be things were way. Fucking more terrible backing Vlad's Day back in the fifteenth century way more violence to use your word one more reason example of a more violent time Adolf Hitler US more reason. Pol Pot. Compare Rousch if you think that you know. God is coming back soon because things are just so especially sinful and violent terrible. Now you don't fuck all about history. You're you're making nonsensical ignorant argument. Ketu more a user Mr Wisdom us you know. This guy is going to be Super Smart Post yes. I agree that people become more ignorant. I've seen so much depite. These last couple of months to leave you speechless. We Jesus oh badly. Let's keep on praying and worshiping. Jesus who was coming back soon fucking irony condemning ignorance by agreeing with how Lindsey Salads is the king of ignorance. He ran to rant about how the world has never been more evil because he's apparently oblivious to history and he's literally made a career out of making false predictions got last one user mark. Peden leaves the comment. Why would a man want to become a woman vice versa? I'm glad I'm not around any of this nonsense and in the context of this common thread. This is written to me in an obvious tone of. Oh my God things have never been more perverse and sexually immoral like they are now and again. It's a nonsense argument. It's not true even if it was immoral to be transgender. I do not believe it to be. You would still be wrong. He was still again failed to understand history right. Think about the Roman Empire Mark Peden. Let's talk about the Roman practice of pederasty Roman were free to enjoy sex with other males without a perceived loss of masculinity or social status as long as they took the dominant or penetrative role which. I don't think he's a moral problem as long as we're talking about consenting adults but back in Rome that right extended to men having sex with boys in particular slave voice Roman citizens having sex with slave boys might not have been constantly and openly discussed but it was certainly happening and it was certainly not legal. You can have sex with your slave boys whether they wanted you to or not and you could have sex with other men slave boys if the owner said it was cool the first century BC Roman dramatist Quintas. Lobbyists wrote it. A boy's remorse attractive at the onset of puberty in that the sexual abuse of boys ceased after their butts became Harry Guys Lucius a second century BC poets or BC. Poet drew comparisons between anal sex with boys and vaginal sex with females. So Mark Peden. Are you saying the God was cool with the rampant ads? Raping of boys in the Roman Empire is that why the rapture didn't occur back then but now he's so pissed about sex changes he wants to tear it all down. It's a nonsense argument. Makes zero sense and everything and yeah but that was before Jesus died. That doesn't apply as far as Christian. Second Coming Lodge will know. This roaming behavior continued continued during the first few centuries see after death by AD. So that argument is null and void. I say all this with love please. If you're Christian Don't waste your time focusing on the end days. There's a lot of love and forgiveness you can focus on instead. So why don't you just do that right? I'll bet you'll be a lot happier. Don't waste your time on clowns like how Lindsey has ninety years old now still alive. I hope he sits down on his balls. Today it'll be falls down when he tried to move off his balls and he breaks builder's hips. Fuck out. Linsey that'll prick. All he's done is spread unnecessary panic and fear over the course of his overly long useless life and now these on youtube just another idiot of the Internet via the Internet and again I apologize for my voice a million decongestants and cold medicines. The doctor said it's you know it's just GonNa it's GonNa take five six days for to break up and speak normal get viruses. Why okay so now. We know a little bit more about how Lindsey in the belief system you had and this was the belief system that the weavers were getting into. They were digging. This message. House spoke to them. They were worried about the end times. They're worried about the. Us economy collapsed. He they were worried about the morality of society. They feared God. They Fear Authority. They were fearsome worried. People and Vicki's family began to worry about them. Vicki's family was watched them become more involved in their fundamentalist belief system. Here them talk more and more about how the world was terrible. Evil place a morally bankrupt place to Kane before the very eyes. This is what life is going. Good for them right. He has a good job of making good money. Another major book influenced. The couple. Was the fictional atlas shrugged by an rand. The founder of objectivism ran made philosophy revolving around reason an individual liberties Vicky found the hero struggle between the individual and the state prophetic in its action. Inspiring book paints a picture of government so overbearing and immoral. That creative people led by a Self. Reliant protagonist go on strike and move to the mountains. You will win. The book's protagonist cries from his mountain. Hideout when you're ready to announce the oath I've taken at the start of my battle and for those who wish to know the day of my return I shall now repeat it to the hearing of the world I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live my life for the sake of another man nor ask another to live for mine so the weavers are getting ready to run for the hills by they. WanNa go hide from the corrupt government. Dickey also is enjoying some lesser known works of the writer. H G wells known popular stories about time travel space and hidden civilizations he also wrote some dark religious stories like a vision of judgment and a dream of Armageddon at second story has eerie similarities to what we would go through on Ruby Ridge and that well story the main character dreams. He's a great leader living with the woman in the future on a thousand foot cliff with view in several directions on his cliff. Men come to him and tell him they're at war with him. Why cannot you leave me alone? The dreamer asks. I've done away with these things. I have ceased to be anything but a private man and then the story ends with the man and the woman being killed also in the late seventy s vicky started to have visions that you thought were sent to her by God. So that's fun. While in the bathtub one night Vicky claimed that she had visions from God about their deaths and about great violence in the cabinet on a mountain top so pretty eerie or did it just makes sets right. Is this all about self-fulfilling prophecy? Would they end up living out a lot? Of their own drama. They were also dreaming about living on a mountaintop removed from society. At this time so it does make sense that she was thinking about mountaintops and they were worried about. You know a government coming for them so it actually does make sense based on her thought processes randy also had visions so both of them having prophetic visions. You're reading a TON OF DOOMSDAY Shit. Weird that this would lead to something bad randy dreamed of configurations of buildings on a Hillside. A cabin and outbuildings buildings. He would later build himself. Randy and Vicki. Also begin to identify as liberalists because they believed that the Bible was the literal word of God and that all of it must be taken as truth even the laws of the Old Testament which you know many churches now arcane and kind of irrelevant dogma liberalism. I'm going to being super offensive again in say that liberalism is fucking nonsense anyone who claims to truly be a biblical literalist concerning the Old Testament. I think you're kidding yourself. Right there are hundreds of things. Does the Old Testament prohibits you not to do? I have never met a single Christian who literally follows all of the Bible including the Old Testament. Not a single one. And you haven't either right if you follow it literally you're supposed to do. There's so many rules you're not supposed to make fabrics right. So they'll be fabric mixing heathen Leviticus Nineteen Nineteen King James version. You shall keep my statutes you shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You should not so your field with exceed nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool. Come upon you know interpretation. Take that literally. You don't get to wear a polyester blend tracks. It you fucking center. How dare you mix your fabrics bite? That's the one thing that really chaps God's asked the mixing of the fabrics. You're also supposed to trim your beard. Either if you take it literally. Leviticus nineteen twenty seven. You shall not shave around the sides of your head nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard. No roof depredation there right yet. Your hair grew out despite a lot of belief to the contrary God only loves hippies so stop offending guy you clean shaven dip shit. Look at you. You're perfectly faded hair no one of the Westboro Baptist Church's so mad at the US military. They all got their fuck devil haircuts. I think you see how ridiculous it is to truly take it all literally again. I've never met a literalist who follows all of the Bible teachings literally. I've met a ton who do a lot of Cherry. Picking right this first lines up with other beliefs. They already have so. We'll follow that one but they won't follow the other one etc so the weavers are getting crazier yet again. If you like. I'm researching people. I knew growing up ribbons one family in particular who? I will not name a family who also worried about the collapse the US economy because the dollar not being backed by gold family who also was convinced of Armageddon coming soon. A family who claim to be Littoralis They like to follow biblical quotes such as Leviticus eighteen twenty two thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind. It isn't abomination super homophobic. But then they would ignore the bulk of the rest of Leviticus versus nineteen thirty three and nineteen thirty. Four which instructs one to be kind and welcoming immigrants hoping is this one being preached it says in the King James version if a stranger so join with the in your land you shall not vex him but the stranger dwells with you shall be unto you as one boring born among you and you shall love him as yourself for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord. Your God I suppose to welcome immigrants according to Leviticus. Treat them as your own treats treat them as one of you because you were once an immigrant. Sorry from going overboard driving some of these points but it does piss me off because I fucked that. It's one of the things that Chas my ass more than anything else in the world because my upbringing people who like oh you got to follow you. Look at this. Look what it says right here. Yeah then take it all motherfucker. If you're GONNA be literalist then follow it all or shut. The fuck up Man Randy. Weaver reminded me so much of people. I grew up knowing I feel like I truly understand. Were Him and Vicki. Were coming from the. There's some good lessons to be learned from tragedy. Other their life became. I don't think that they were all bad people. And we're totally bed. I just think I think they're Abacha crazy in some ways. I think they wanted to live moral lives but then I think you know. They fell into this kind of weird dogmatic trap of literalist interpretation. They succumb to a all this apocalyptic nonsense and it did them a great disservice as I think it does to everyone else who follows that line of thought the weavers decided they would only read the King James version of the Bible going forward because Vicki now believes that translations are not divinely inspired and our pagan influenced? I've heard that rhetoric rhetoric to my paternal grandma wants told me that all Catholics are GONNA burn in. Hell for sure because Satan had infiltrated the early Catholic Church and destroyed the Bible. Fucking crazy nets They started having lots of Bible. Study sessions home. There'd be anywhere from four to ten people at the weaver's house sometimes as often as four nights a week talking about all this randy led the Bible. Study most tie but everyone read chapters and commented on what they might mean. Vicky was a scripture list scholar with the group or the other main one it was if she had memorized the Bible from Genesis to revelation acts to Zachariah. She knew she knew God wanted. She was convinced that she knew she convinced. Randy of what she knew in Randy knew something. He found impossible not to tell other people about it. He was that kind of. Guy Co workers neighbors. He wanted to talk to everyone. Everything with him was was either right or it was wrong for much like black and white rigid thinking you know. He tossed authoritative opinions. Constantly in the late seventies began to warn anyone who would listen about current politics told them to repent launch into Biblical prophecy regarding the end times. You Know He. He sounded like he was becoming someone. I would much rather throw down the stairs and have to listen to for more than ten minutes. It was long before Randy found a group of about ten other men who felt the same way he did. They were born again. Coffee Swilling Christians. Who met at a Cedar Falls restaurant called Sambo's it meets there at night debating insurance scripture? He was super into all this. He's talking about once a week at the diner. He's talking about three or four times. You know More every week with Vicky and friends at home at one home Bible Study Randy and Vicki interpreted verse of revelation. The beast causes all both small and great rich and poor free and bond to receive a mark in the right hand or on their foreheads. And that no man might buy or sell save. He had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name and his number is six hundred three score and six six six six. The Beast Randy said this was a metaphor for computers soon. He said everyone would be cataloged on computers. Birth schooling purchases homes every credit card connected as they are by computers with mark. People with number of the beast. Vicki said of course wants to currency was devalued finally changed. No Man could buyer without a credit card. Without six six six there was going to be a big social breakdown. Randy would say. The government would use the opportunity to declare martial law crushing democracy. Killing the good Christian Americans people would be ride in the streets. The traders government would turn against his own people. The only protection will be clusters of good Christians with guns might be a good time to point out that there's still a decent percentage of northern Idaho and to have a very similar beliefs living here. Currently one of the last time I walked into the local neutral shop to employees were openly talking about Hollywood elites making sacrifices to the Demon Botham. It is if that was a a normal thing to believe and be okay to talk about in front of customers I remember my dad talked about stuff like that. In the early nineties he briefly returned to his fundamentalist doomsday roots. And I remember. He and my stepmom at the time talking about how the new order government was going to implant chips and all of the citizens and have the mark of the beast. And you know and and if you didn't have the mark of the beast you'd be able to buy or sell you have to basically take off and hide out in the hills and barter or fend for yourself. Wait for the anti is also crazy. We will have chip implant someday and it will be glorious because then we won't have to worry about losing their credit cards anymore. I it's a different form of credit card. That happens to be under your skin. It'll be convenient. And it's not going to have to do with Christian devil in the early eighties. After years of being super. Into all this all this apocalyptic shit having their prophetic visions and so many Bible Study Sessions. Randy and Vicki decided. It was time to get off the grid and head to Northern Idaho. Awesome Vicky came up with the planet survive in the apocalypse that involve moving away from corrupt civilization and the Weaver family did just that nearly eighties. They moved to a twenty Acre property. Remote Ruby Ridge. Idaho built a cabin. They're paid only five thousand dollars. Cash for the land. They're using some mark of the beast. Credit Card are GONNA are gonNA write some kind of devil check Check but you know what I mean. I could use them devil credit. They built their home cheaply as well. Doing the work themselves. Used mainly leftover materials can like the thrift store equivalent of a house. They home schooled their kids guns and God as well as writing and arithmetic live pretty much off the grid that no electricity no running water. For the next ten years they raise seemingly happy healthy and kind of end of the time. Zombie Zombie Apocalypse. Ready kits and then. The apocalypse did not happen But hell did come to the form in the form of an armed standoff with US law enforcement We're GONNA get to the standoff would put the weavers into the national spotlight during today's time suck time line in just a moment but first let's look at the history of the white supremacy movement that would surround the weavers important. Today's narrative would surround them in Ruby Ridge and surrounding their story. The media the stigma of white supremacists involved in the Ruby Ridge standoff Haunts Northern Idaho to this date. So annoying when I told some of my Los Angeles friends I was hidden. Northern Idaho skinheads was one of the first words they they tossed around when asked him to come visit and see that it wasn't so bad. Several of my Jewish friends half jokingly said that they would never visit nor the night out mixing things up with local white. Supremacist is where the real trouble began for. The weavers or Randy. Weaver never officially joined the area nations. Much of his standoff story revolves around the ideas of that group. Randy's label white supremacist. And Neo Nazi white nationalist by the media according to Weaver himself. He never embraced their ideology however he did attend. Several summertime can't meetings at a nearby area and brotherhood compound in Hayden over several years with his family. They brought his kids. Would you know kind of fucked up? He may not have been white supremacist. But when the nation's told him to come over for get together he didn't decline. The invitation came back over and over again. Why would you do that right outside of doing that? Joke where you fuck with them. And then posted on social media later to make them look like ass clowns. Why would you actually go to a white supremacist compound? I sure as hell would not do that. Even though part of me would really want to go just to see how fucking crazy those people are. Because I am curious. I want to go the same way. Sneak into like some insane. Colts compound just to see what they really do behind closed doors. What I bring my family just to hang out in the company rose no but weaver did and I don't think it's right to overlook how terrible choice that was in an effort to be fair to Randy I mean. He and Vicki Woodside differences in religious beliefs between themselves and the group but again they went numerous times so there were you know at the very least. I think it's safe to say they were pretty racist Definitely racists W races toward Jewish people. The ideology of the nations is largely mostly antisemitic. Lot of new world order biblical Armageddon Prophesy Interpretation Mumbo jumbo in a later interview about his racial beliefs Randy said when questioned about believing in the secret cabal of Jewish people running things and wanting to make life hell for gentiles. He said well. It's not all the Jews so yeah he's Pretty Racist. Regardless of how races he was or wasn't You know get some extra context that will help understand what led to the siege on Ruby Ridge should look into a bit of the white supremacy movement here in the US we covered some of this during our KKK. Suck episode fifty so he won't go too deep here today but it's been a while since that suck it worth going over this area of information again. What add some information? I haven't covered before as well and we'll get into this history lesson Read after a quick word from our first sponsor. Today's time suck is brought to you by the whole Air Banjo Academy area nation infiltration earplug to hate away seminar in this important seminar. You'll learn what music to play to heal the hate if you could infiltrate an area nation compound get together of hate right learn white supremacist melodies to make them think that you're on their side at first start off with little racist skinhead. Classic like Romper Stopper told on the boots reverend doctor copays if you could kick off the chorus for us. Yeah not a problem. skinheads skinhead running through the night. Making lots of trouble. Starting lots of fights stain dog saying how impressed so you don't stay. Don't take ten and then when they think that you're cool with their hateful ways you transition into Paul McCartney and Stevie wonder's Ebony and ivory were. The lyrics are all about racial harmony reverend. Dr Joe can you help me with the start of that song even go okay? Bernini and We thanked out Muni Piano. Thank you thank Bank Bank Bank. Thank thank ponting Tang Frank Bank bank bank. Thank them. Thank thank thank. Thank thank thank. Everyone gets together so sign up today for the whole Air Banjo Academy Area Nation Infiltration Airplane Seminar. An air. Pluck the shit out of some racism. He'll Nimr and I just want to be clear. Yeah we're denouncing it denouncing. And he's right exactly exactly. We'll make sure everyone knows that. I did ask Joe before the episode of he just memorize some skinhead lyrics but to be clear we did that so that we can denounce it very clear. We know it doesn't look great out of context. It sure does it sure does but I'm enroll thank you. We're GONNA air plucked the headway. You guys okay. I was fun now. Let's head back to the nineteen sixties and. Thank you joe for doing that job. I'm sure that was very uncomfortable. Okay so is my life and okay. We're headed back to nineteen sixty s and talk about people of different races. Not Getting along one of my favorite decades in American history as far as just being so interesting much change going on some of the good some of a bad the nineteen sixties Z. Christian identity theology formerly a fairly benign expression of what is known as British Israeli them or Anglo Israeli ism of began to spread through the US and Canada particularly on the coast of these nations and it took some ugly turns. This belief holds that White Americans. Canadians are the real descendants of the biblical tribes of Israel and then this belief morphed into a form of anti-semitism and then into white supremacy in two thousand three author. Nicole Nichols an expert on far-right racist and religious groups in America defined the concept of this Christian identity is practiced by many white supremacist and separatist groups. She wrote it. Christian identity became not an organization but an ideology that many organizations adopted in some form or fashion. She said that Christian identity elevates white supremacy and separatism to a godly ideal. Calling it the theological the theol- excuse me the ideological fuel the fires. Much of the activity of the racist far-right. According to this Christian identity. Jewish people are neither the true Israelites nor the true chosen people of God instead Christian identity. Proponents claim that Jews are descended from an attic. People known as the Kosovars who settled near the Black Sea during the Middle Ages? And then God's chosen people were infected Germanic Anglo Saxon Celtic Nordic Aryan people knows of kindred blood are the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and hence the descendants of the ancient Israelites classic historical rewriting. The Jews are not God's people the White Man is always has been and you have been lying to and tricking the white man for over two thousand years Michael Barkan reported expert on radical. Right groups said the virulent racist and antisemitic. Theology is prevalent among many right wing extremist groups and has been called the glue of the racist for one of the most influential documents that many of these modern antisemitic groups individuals cite as proof of a Jewish conspiracy to keep the white man down. Is The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and we've covered this bullshit document and if you pass socks and also on the secret suck but it's been a minute and some important propaganda to continually denounce from time to time soil. Throw a throwdown another overview of the protocols. Here it's Food. A lot of people for longtime continues to Cause Racism Hayden Harm. It's also very interesting. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion also called Protocols of the Elders of Zion in the blamed the Jews for anything and everything chronicles. It's a fraudulent document that has served as a pretext and rationale for a lot of anti-semitism mainly in the twentieth century in the twenty first century documents purported to be a report of a series of twenty four meetings in some versions twenty-seven and others held in Basil Switzerland and in eighteen ninety seven at the time of the first Zionist Congress and that meeting of the first Zionist Congress did occur roughly two hundred Jewish community leaders from seventeen different nations. Did meet to discuss the goal of forming a Jewish state in Palestine. Since at the time to Jewish people had no country to call home and had been living as nomadic people for centuries roughly fifty of the attendees were from Russia. Ten Christians also attended guests so they could monitor and watch and hopes that the world would freak out over what the Jewish people might be up to. The event attracted a fair amount of media attention worldwide. Most of the coverage had the tone of. What exactly are the Jews up to? And then life went on in the media was largely forgotten about for most for a couple years and then a Russian antisemitic propaganda. Living in France Pierre Ivanovich Reg Kofsky. A member of the czars secret police wrote the protocols alleged to be a record of what was really talked about Zionist Congress. When the Christians weren't around the Russian government had been an anti had been antisemitic and worried about the Jewish people for decades propaganda. Was nothing new for them? This propaganda just became far more successful than most of their earlier propaganda wrench Kaczynski. Wrote that. The Jews and the freemasons were have said to made plans to disrupt Christian civilization and erect a World State. One world government. The new world order right under their joint rule liberalism and socialism would be the means of subverting Christendom. If subversion failed all the capitals of Europe. Were to be sabotaged of these protocols. Propaganda were printed in Russia in abbreviated form. Ninety three in a popular newspaper and then again in nineteen o five and they were translated into German French English and other European languages and then soon became to be a classic of Antisemitic Literature in the United States. Henry. Ford's private newspaper Dearborn Independent often side of these protocols as evidence of the Jewish threat. Ford was so worried about the Jewish people. Trying to take over the world that he funded the printing of five hundred thousand. Copies of this distributed throughout the Nineteen Twenty S. the fraudulent nature of the protocols was first revealed in Nineteen Twenty one by Philip Graves of the Times in London who demonstrated their obvious resemblance to a satire on the POLIAN. The third by a French lawyer Maurice Jolie published in Eighteen. Sixty four right it was just a plagiarism. And then subsequent invest in investigation particularly between Russian historian Vladimir. Burt Sev- a revealed that the protocols were forgeries that also had partially plagiarized the satire of Jolie a fantastic novel by Herman coached published in eighteen. Sixty eight and then. There are other sources so the the author just pulled from a bunch of existing sources in twisted it to meet his own agenda proved academics to be a forgery. But by the time it was proven the damage was already done. Everyone read the headline. Almost no one reads retraction a problem that continues to this day The Protocols talked about a conspiracy to destroy Christianity and Control. The world included plan to take over the media as laid out in the Twelfth Protocol which read literature and journalism are to the most important educative forces and therefore our government will become proprietor of the majority of the it will put us in possession of a tremendous influence upon the public. Mind and to this day you still see cries on the Internet of the Jews. Control the media. The Seventeenth Protocol Warns of a direct attack on Christianity. As part of this conspiracy the pope in the church will be annihilated so that only years divide us from the moment of the complete wrecking of the Christian religion the final takeover will be achieved financially as stated in the Twenty First Protocol. The reads we shall replace the money markets by grandiose government credit institutions the object of which will be to fix the price of industrial values accordance with government views. You may imagine for yourselves. What immense power we shall thereby secure for ourselves again to this day there are cries and the Internet of the Jews. Have all the money are there are concerned by some about credit because of its relation initially to this document right. It's relation to the mark of the beast. It's part of the end times the protocols make it seem as if the Jewish people responsible for a number of past and present disasters from the downfall of Christian monarchy's to the French revolution to the advancement of liberal and Bourgeois Ideas the protocols contain a number of metaphors essential to conspiracy vocabulary such as the invisible hand pushes piece on a chessboard. The plotters are portrayed as poisonous snakes. Spiders weaving their webs wolves ready to devour Christian sheep. The last protocol is described the future reign of the Jews in Christian terms announcing the coming of King of the Jews who will be the real pope of the universe. The Patriarch of an International Church in addition to the protocols and building upon them there was also American preacher. Wesley Swift's influence on the white supremacy movement in the nineteen forties a former methodist minister. Wesley Swift started his own church later known as the Church of Jesus Christ Christian and Wesley Swift was like the propagandist writer of the L. Protocols of Zion like how Lindsey a huge piece of shit swift had deep ties to a number of radical religious right wing groups including the Klu Klux Klan swift and his associates set the stage for the mutation of the Christian identity movement into a loosely organized set of viral Louis Antisemitic racist belief systems that came to be grouped together as Under the Christian identity rubric. A swift himself taught that only the white race was created in the form of God while Asian. African races were created from beasts of the fields. Thusly they are subhuman creations and not part of God's people in Swift's version of genesis eve. The wife of the first true man Adam was seduced by the serpent who masqueraded as a white man ebor son from her union with this snake. Kane who asserted was who he is sort was the actual father of the Jewish people. He said the Jewish people were the descendants of Satan. This reinterpretation sometimes called D. Two seed or seed liner theory supports the Christian identity Propensity to demonize Jews whom swift and others continue to label as these spawn of Satan. Today's White Europeans and their American Canadian descendants swift taught are descended from the true God Adam and Eve able Are the actual chosen. People have got some Christian identity adherents add onto this claim and claim it subhuman pre epidemic races existed and spawned the Non White Races of the world which they labelled as the mud people. So Jesus Christ I mean. Why do people complicate their lives with this? Kinda shit all the real problems in the world disease and economic inequality the real struggle of trying to find love and you know and the work that goes into maintaining a career and for me to maintain friendships and family relationships and on and on and some people want to add a bunch of imaginary struggles to their plight as well all right. There was a lot of things to be worried about in the world. Jewish people being Satan's minions not one of them. The people just need to get better hobbies to fucking fixes like what the fuck take all the time. You're spending trying to analyze convoluted nonsensical conspiracies and learned to play. I don't look at tar or something. Maybe speak a new language right now to get a study for a black belt in martial arts resulted do something productive was all that free time fucking ignorant Weirdos Now back to the sixties for a bit before we launched at the time line in the nineteen sixties new group of Christian identity leaders emerged spread radical racist identity theology throughout America and Canada. The most prominent among them were three disciples of Wesley Swift. James K Warner William Potter Gail than the man most important. Today's tale Richard Butler Warner would move to Louisiana and play leading role in the fight against civil rights there Gale early leader of the Christian Defense League and his paramilitary armed. The California Rangers would go on to form to found the POSSE comitatus nine hundred sixty nine a group that would help bring around bring around sorry my sinuses. Driving me crazy makes it so extra hard to pronounce anything He would go help bring around the sovereign citizen Movement sours sovereign citizens believed that they not judges. Juries law enforcement our elected officials get to decide which laws to obey which to ignore and they don't think they should have to pay taxes and they have all this crazy rationale tobacco this belief that is far too complicated and convoluted to break down today. It's madness they're people who believe a Jewish shadow government as sold US citizens in the international slavery. And it's insane. We could easily go to a full soccer. The sovereign citizen movement and then but the important thing to note is far as Randy Weaver's people who don't believe they're obligated to elicit government. They shouldn't have to pay taxes and they have to follow loss. Then there's Richard Butler a character crucial today story. The dude who ran the nation compound that ran brought his family to in Hayden Lake. Visit that lead to More visits the lead to crime led to an arrest warrant that led to the Ruby Ridge. Standoff Butler moved. Wesley Swift's Church of Jesus Christ Christian to Northern Idaho and recast it as a Neo. Nazi group the area nations in the early seventies under the leadership of Butler Gail Warner others The Christian identity movement permeated most of the rights by You know including the clan. The racist skinhead organisation known as the Hammer Skins Christian identity enclaves provided trail of safe high or would provide a trail of safe havens for movement activists stretching from Hayden Lake in northern Idaho to You know the Oklahoma Arkansas border. Many white supremacist on the run from federal authorities would find shelter and support from these Christian identity followers while randy in Wicky Vicki. Weaver may or may not have been interested in these ideas. They did worry about a secret. One World Jewish government and they did share. These groups concern over an intimate apocalypse. Brought on by this Jewish conspiracy many Christian identity adherents believed that the biblical apocalypse is coming soon. They believe Jesus Christ will return to Earth. Only after a time of tribulation great battle between good and evil little set the stage for the return of Christ and the final transformation of world identity followers. Believe it's their duty to prepare for the apocalypse and this is terrifying. Some them actually believe it is their duty to help bring about the apocalypse. The tend to you. Cast the apocalypse in racial terms whites versus non whites identity here is believed the world institutions will collapse during the end times therefore ten distrust they tended distrust such institutions making identity theology appealing to anti-government types Militia types the twenty first century Christian identity groups are strongest in the Pacific northwest of America and Canada in the US Midwest though identity churches can be found throughout the US and in other parts of Canada Identity Churches also exist in Ireland. Great Britain Australia and South Africa estimates. About how many members of these groups there are very for about twenty five thousand to fifty thousand identity. Adherence have committed a number of violent acts off against the government and or financial institutions in February of Nineteen ninety-three identity. Inherit Gordon. Call killed two as killed two. Us marshals who attempted to arrest him on a parole violation and then killed in Arkansas Sheriff before finally being gunned down by authorities. Why because he thought the police were serving an an unjust Zionist shadow government. Because he thought killing officers would help usher in the apocalypse The white supremacist terrorist group. The order contained a number of identity members including David Tate who killed a Missouri Highway Patrol officer while attempting to flee identity survivalist compound on April Fifteenth Ninety five during the nineteen eighties small identity groups such as New Order Aka the order to and the Arizona Patriots committed bombings and armored car robberies after the Oklahoma City bombing of April nineteenth nineteen ninety-five identity minister. Willie Lampley attempted a number of his own bombings in one thousand nine hundred six. The Montana freemen led by identity members engaged in eighty one day standoff with federal authorities between Nineteen ninety-six. Nine hundred ninety eight Eric Robert Rudolph who was connected to identity ministers nor Davis. Dan GAIMAN bombed in Atlanta. Gay Bar bombed several abortion clinics in the Atlanta Summer Olympics in nineteen ninety nine identity member and former Northern Idaho area nations compound Security Guard. Buford furrow when on a shooting spree at a Jewish community center in Los Angeles wounding two five year. Old Boy two six year old boys a sixteen year old girl and a sixty sixty eight year old woman and he also killed a thirty nine year old man the FBI the ACLU and the southern poverty law center as well as many mainstream media outlets constantly report. The domestic terrorism from these groups is more of a threat to American citizens than Islamic terrorism. So good job you racist Shit for Brain Idiots you so-called patriots more of a threat to America than Isis There's also a connection between these races Christian identity groups the weavers and the Oklahoma City bombing of ninety-five Timothy McVeigh the most famous name associated with the Oklahoma City bombing You know we'll be appalled by the government's conduct in Ruby Ridge as is his friend. Terry Nichols with whom he's living with. Mcveigh closely was following. The Events Ruby Ridge both local newspapers and in publications such as the White Supremacist separatist publication. Spotlight and he felt it. Mainstream media gave only the government's version of the events. Later he would recall this as a defining moment in his life in a book. Titled American terrorists based on prison interviews given by mcvay to to reporters Mcvay targeted the federal building in retaliation for the Ruby Ridge and Waco Branch Davidian tragedies mcvay would of course bomb federal building in Oklahoma City where the blast killed one hundred sixty eight people including nineteen children. More than five hundred others injured. Okay now that I've laid out a lot of the backstory for a primary characters right in the ideology they'd be surrounded with Northern Idaho. We can get into and properly. Understand their standoff. The nineties were weird time in America for homegrown terrorism. Right before we get into our time. Line a word from today's real sponsors now. Let's talk about eyeballs? The pretty important too much screen time to result in tired dry is headaches. Blurry vision even trouble sleeping. I don't suffer from any of that. Even though I live at a computer screen doing research for time suck Felix Gray glasses filter out. 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Why would you buy glasses from a company whose sole focus isn't making glasses Felix Gray makes the best blue light glasses in the game go to Felix Gray glasses dot com slash time suck and get a pair of blue light glasses from the pros shipping and returns totally free? That's F. E. L. I. X. G. R. A. Y. GLASSES DOT com slash time suck Felix gray glasses dot com slash. Time SEC and now it is time for today's time suck timeline strap on those boots soldier. Where marching down a time suck time line. Okay let's hit back just for a few details. We missed earlier to the seventies in March of Nineteen seventy-six. While the weavers lived in sear falls Iowa Vicky gives birth to the couple's first child. Sarah nineteen seventy eight begins having visions of her her future family living on mountaintop where they'd be safe from the coming apocalypse. The weavers form the Bible Study Group. We talked about earlier. The began to worry about dog. Zionist ORGANIZED GOVERNMENT. Randy starts collecting guns. Vicky studies self sufficiency in survival techniques in July. Seventy eight is the couple begin to search. For mountaintop retreat. Vicky gives birth to a Son. Samuel nine hundred eighty. Two Vicki gives birth to a second daughter. Rachel while still in Iowa in nineteen eighty. Three the Weavers Seltzer Iowa home and head West and August finding and buying that twenty Acre parcel on Ruby Ridge Northern Idaho in Nineteen eighty-four in March. The weavers completed construction on their no electricity. No running water. Having cabin began living on Ruby Ridge They would begin home. Schooling home schooling their children. Now this weird out thinking about two families whose homes are on either side of the House directly behind mine They are fundamentalist religious types. Who also home school their kids. If you've got to wonder if they're teaching their kids about some Zionist shadow government. I wonder if they're preparing them for the apocalypse wonder if their kids getting vaccinated. I love quarterlane but I would love it more. If we had less of these paranoid Weirdos living around me I mean the apocalypse pacalypse does come. I I feel like I should probably use my gun skills. People I right I mean. They probably have the best apocalypse preparations if I can take them out. I'll have years worth of dry goods water. Purification tablets can use to keep my family safe joking around about this. I remember my dad telling me when I was living in spokane of my twenties about how shit went down. I was to drive as fast as I could to get to the little salmon river. Canyon south to Reagan's where we had enough AMMO and wild game and clean water to survive. You know some type of apocalyptic collapse mic stand for ourselves when the N. W. O. Right they're they're they're forces came to enslave America. That enough that crazy got into that. I do take some comfort living here. Northern Idaho thinking that if she does go down. I don't think that it will help if it does. I'm pretty place to survive it. I'm learning so much about myself in this suck. I feel like I'm studying my own upbringing. Way More than I care to to randy weaver's survivalist mentality in the mid eighty s. The weavers taken a fatherless and troubled teenager named Kevin Harris Crazy but they're not all bad they also begin doubling down on Some racist antisemitic views around this time finding justification for them and their interpretations of the Bible. Now the the the now You know Begin to limit their association with with those who don't share. They're kind of like minded views. A Nice Echo Chamber going surrounding yourself with only those who share your misguided views to really solidify those views in January of Nineteen ninety-five the US Secret Service. The U. S. S. investigates allegations from neighbors. A Randy. Weaver that weaver has been threatening to kill president. Reagan a governor John Evans and Other unspecified law enforcement officials. That's Idaho Governor John Evans. The weaver's neighbor Terry Kinnison. The family get into a three thousand dollar land dispute which Kennison loses and is forced to pay extra twenty one hundred damages and court costs and Kenniston would be the one to inform the FBI. We've had threatened to kill the president. The Pope Governor of Idaho law enforcement others. And you know something. Kennison was just trying to frame while kinison may have been getting back Iran because he was pissed about the land dispute. I doubt he made up these clips. I doubt he was lying about the threats. I mean the more I've learned about Randy and Vicki And you know the more we're going to learn. This seems exactly like the type of thing that they would do The Secret Service learned through interviews That weaver is also associated with members of Richard Butler's Aaron Nations compound. So you know we've gone off to fuck rails living out in a remote mountain in a shack with no electricity. No running water place. He built himself homeschool and his kids hanging out with skinheads waiting for the apocalypse. Now in all likelihood he's threatening to kill the leaders of the government's by the government. He he does think is in bed with some. Sorta Zionist New World Order Shadow one world government right secret service interviews weaver who denies his affiliation with Area Nations. He denies making threats against President. Reagan and Governor Evans. Of course does it's deny or go to jail. He's crazy but he's not stupid. No charges are filed against weaver as a result of his alleged threats on February. Twenty eighth ninety five Randy and Vicki. Weaver file an affidavit with the Boundary County Idaho clerk claiming that false allegations made to the secret service were part of an elaborate plot designed to provoke federal authorities into storming their home and taking their land. Weaver rights by this is something he sends to the government he writes he may have to defend himself in his family from physical attacks on his life. Jesus Christ he had such a huge hand in creating the horrible situation that would happen in nineteen ninety two. It's like he and Vicki's insane belief system just willed won't happen to them into existence. They worried so much about the government storming and taking their property that they did a bunch of Shit that led to the government. Right coming onto the property so sad if he just wouldn't have been such a paranoid lunatic. None of this would have happened in nineteen eighty-five like a crazy person. Weaver writes a letter to President. Reagan apologizing for false allegations made by his neighbors against him. God I wish I could access a copy of this letter. I bet it is so good. Dear Mr President. This is handy randy me and sticky vic. You'd like to clear some stuff up. I know that some of your secret service agents have told you that I'm stockpiling weapons and hanging out with Richard Butler whose anti government airy nation types and then I wanNA kill you that I want to kill the governor veto. That want to kill for all of those who work for you crooked anti-american politician and that's not true. I'm just a regular guy who left a good job in Iowa and moved northern Idaho to live off the grid shack with no electricity or running water. Who refuses let his kids go to school? Would they would undoubtedly be indoctrinated into your Zionist anti-christian Satanic One world government agenda and have had to. I would not want my children to share classrooms with Subhuman Mudpeople. Vicky and I just want live out our lives in peace until the inevitable race war breaks out. They'll see the rapture that how Lindsey assures me is coming any day. Now we're God will destroy you and all the other crooked politicians who began selling out our citizens in international slavery when the gold standard was no longer used to back up our currency. Please do not think I wanNA kill you not yet. God will do that shortly. I will not kill you. God gives me the green light. Tell Nancy Hello. God bless you you satanic? Puppet sincerely Handy Randy Weaver. I bet it wasn't that far off in July of ninety-six Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms Informant named Kenneth Fatally or fatally is introduced to weaver at the world. Aaron Congress in Hayden Lake Idaho Weird. I thought it wasn't hanging out guys. I thought that's what he said in his letter fatally meets weaver again. In January nineteen eighty seven at another area and get together also in July of Eighteen. Seventy seven in also in July of nineteen eighty nine th at another area in world congress. So weird he's not hanging out hanging out with these guys yet. He's hanging out with them all the time Weird that he will let his kids go to public school. God knows what kinds of influences? They'll get there but he will at his kids on a regular basis. Hang out with skinheads I say the more alert about Randy Weaver. The less I care for him at July nine hundred eighty nine congress. Weaver invites the beat. Be ATF informant Fatally to his house to discuss forming a group to fight against design Zionist organized government. Zog Handy Randy is fucking mad on October eleventh nine hundred eighty nine failures with weaver at a restaurant and sandpoint. Idaho which time we were says he can supply sawed off shotguns fairly for the upcoming revolution. Like a psychopath ready. Recalls fatally I WANNA machine guns. Bahraini couldn't do that. He didn't have access to machine guns but he could saw down the barrels of some shots on October. Twenty four th randy weaver cells to sawed off shotguns to failure. Parkin standpoint for seven hundred dollars is illegal. After selling them to fatally he also starts to think differently. Might be an informant in November fairly breaks contact with Randy. Weaver accuses him of being a COP Be An ATF agent. Herbert byerly submits a case on May Twenty First Nineteen Ninety about the ATS ongoing investigation airy nations compound to the US Attorney's office in Boise recommended. Weaver be prosecuted for the illegal sale of sawed off shotguns. Atf AGENT BYERLY and Steve Gunderson Approach Randy and standpoint and attempt to enlist him to be an informant regarding the illegal activities of Aryan nations members. Weaver says that he will not be a snitch. He then notifies his buddies at the nation's headquarters that the government is attempting to infiltrate their group Bite. He for sure as you know fairly close with these guys. What happened to the young soldier who's willing to stitch about the illegal confiscation of drugs on base? Because that was the right thing to do. Apparently that that kid is dead. Randy has changed so much since his idealistic early. Idaho Iowa Days December thirteenth nineteen ninety a federal grand jury in the district of Idaho indicts weaver for manufacturing and possessing unregistered firearms on January seventeenth. Ninety-one ATF agent posing as stranded motorists rest weaver at gunpoint on weapons charges. He apparently tells the arresting agents. Nice trick you'll never do that again. randy is Yeah you get a little crazier little crazy all the time. January Eighteenth Nineteen ninety-one. Weaver is rain before us. Magistrate Judge Stephen M Right here in Quarterlane Idaho. Judge is appointed Everett Hofmeister Council for Weaver and releases him on ten thousand dollar personal reconnaissance. Bond directs him to appear at US District Court for trial on February nineteenth. Nineteen ninety-one on January twenty first randy receives a letter informing him that his trial date has been rescheduled for March twentieth. Although the actual date was February twentieth so little fuck here on January twenty second. Weaver Calls Probation Officer. Cole Reagan's pursuant to the terms of his condition of release on February fifth. Us District Court Clerk Boise or a US District Court clerk in Boise. Idaho sends a notice to the parties including weaver that his trial date has been changed to February twentieth so now he does know the real date within on February seventh. Us Attorney's office in Boise receives two letter. Excuse me then in February seventh the. Us Attorney's office in Boise receives two letters from Vicki Weaver. Data January twenty first and February third nineteen ninety-one letters addressed to the queen of Babylon. Oh boy the queen of Babylon Vicky. It's important to note just as crazy as randy. The letters appeared to contain veiled threats They're provided to law enforcement of Boise. I wish I had a full copy of these letters as well by just dear queen of Babylon Sticky Vicki here. Handy Randy and I received your letter informing us of the change in court. Date series government can prosecute my husband for being a patriot and wanting to fight to restore America to its place of rightful white. Glory with the Jews were not pull your puppets drinks the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Riding toward you as I put pen to paper petulance war famine death or coming repent bow to God's glory before it's too late. Also can we please move the data the summer We don't have a snowblower. It can be a real pain in the rear to get off the ridge during the winter months a thank you and God bless sticky and Handy Randy also on the seventh. Us Probation Officer Curl Reichen Says Randy. Weaver letter requesting randy to contact him. He also messes up to date again refers to it as March twentieth rather than February twentieth. So got damaged double check your dates when you're dealing with anti-government hotheads on February nineteenth twentieth. Nineteen ninety-one Weaver does not appear for trial in Moscow on either the nineteen or the twentieth Chief US District Court Judge Herald Ryan issued a bench warrant for him now would he have appeared without the March twentieth. Claire Glare we'll never know. If he had appeared the whole standoff could possibly would avoided that being said. I'm not sure he would have showed up. He and Viki clearly felt like design has government was fucking with him on March Fifth Deputy. Us marshals hunt and maize initiate. Contact with bill and Judy Greider Friends of the weaver family. The writers give the marshalls a letter. Signed by the Weaver family saying we will not obey your lawless government. So they go. They weren't gonNA show up by the weavers architects of their own doom. They're making sure that their prophecies of war with the government are GONNA come true. They just tell the. Us Marshall Service quote. We will not obey your lawless government. The siege that follows was so very avoidable. You don't get to tell the government to fuck off not in any land not even in the land of the free. That's not how life works. You're being an idiot Vicki Weaver continues to write threatening letters to the federal government by accessing old court documents at Justice Dot Gov. I was able to find an excerpt from one. This is what it read. Which isn't that much less crazy than stuff I was making up earlier. She wrote a man cannot have two masters. Y'All way Yashuo Messiah the anointed one of Saxon. Israel is our law giver and our King. We will obey him and no others a long forgotten. Wind is starting to blow. Do you hear the approaching. Thunder is that of the Awakened Saxon. War is upon the land. The tyrant's blood will flow. She's undermined by idiots. You're you're living in a theocracy lady like it or not you while we say God in God we trust. We have a secular government in a secular laws are not obeyed. There are fucking punishments that God cannot save you from if more people understood this. We'd all be better off on March fourteenth ninety-one a federal grand jury. The district of Idaho indicts weaver failure to appear in court. The next day March fifteenth the weavers and their three children begin an eighteen month. Sit in at their cabin. Just go to your court date you foolish stubborn asshole friends. Keep them supplied with what they need to get by friend and former border. Kevin Harris visits the cabin periodically and the US marshals begin to keep the cabin under surveillance. Not because of big brother by because they're not coming to their coordinate. I heard a lot about Ruby Ridge back when I was in high school. This part of the story about how they finally told the government to just to fuck off was conveniently left out of the narrative and March eighteenth. Ninety-one chief deputy. Us Marshal. Ron Evans district of Idaho provides the Marshall Service with analysis of the family situation and request assistance from the Marshall Services Special Operations Group salk soggy. Sog PRETTY CLOSE TO ZERO G. I the thing that they're afraid of design is pretty weird On March Twenty Eighth Evans brief SOG personnel. It's all tactical center and camp. Bow Regard Louisiana on developments in the weaver case. The decision is made to send the SOG team Idaho to gather information to develop a plan to arrest randy weaver and again all his could have been avoided if any would have just went down to the court and be like. What are we going to do to deal with this right? He was an anti-government nutjob who refused to own up to selling legal weapons Between June seventeenth to June twenty-fourth the SOG reconnaissance team travels north. Eastern Idaho conducts assessment on the weaver case the team develops a plan for the rest of weaver on his property away from his wife and children. The plan describes weaver extremely dangerous and suicidal July nineteenth ninety-one Deputy Marshal cluff and weavers appointed counsel Everett. Hofmeister meet with Rodney Wiley. A wily a family friend and they ask why is to try and please CONVINCE WEAVER TO SURRENDER. Wiley reports the following day that we were says he will not surrender because he fears his rights will be violated and of course. He thinks that he thinks the government is being controlled by Satanic Jewish Forces. Steely paranoid fuck continuing to create an entirely unnecessary mess. September Twenty Eighth Nineteen Ninety one to Louisiana. Sog Team is dispatched northern Idaho The plan to arrest Weavers canceled. Oh due to bad Intel on October ninth senior deputy. Us Marshal Dave Hunt as Alan Jefferson of another friend of the weavers to please convey an offer of negotiations of the family. They're they're they're trying to get them to cooperate. The marshalls begin to formulate formal. Formal surrender terms. They want this to end peacefully. They're trying to be fair on October. Twelfth US hunt and a US marshal hunts gives me in another us. Marshal Ron Evans proposed offering formal surrender terms to weaver and request authorization from the. Us Attorney's office to do so on October Seventeenth Assistant. Us Attorney Ronald how in sends a letter to Hunting Evans? Drinking all contact with weaver must go to the weavers appointed attorney in addition house and does not authorized further negotiations with weaver directly as proposed by the marshals. October twenty first brought to students to over twenty fourth. Vicky gives birth With all the government around them to a third daughter Alicia at least Sheba Ellie Sheba. Of course they named her daughter Lisa. By if you're an Zionist or if you're a standoff with authorities because you believe in Zionist government. You're not going to name your daughter Hammer Michelle six months later on March Fourth Nineteen ninety-two deputy. Us Marshal Jack. Cluff chief Deputy Marshal Ron Evans. Drive up to the weaver property in an unmarked vehicle. The weavers are still camped out there by randy armed with the rifle he tells cluff. Devon's to get the fuck off his property. Right tells them they're trespassing. He's holding a gun. They leave without incident again so unnecessary. They're not coming up to their coming up there to get him to go to court because he's supposed to go to court. He's needlessly endanger in his family at this point on March eighth ninety to a full year since the standoff began a local spokane newspaper. The Spokesman Review publishes a front page Article About Randy. Weaver snubbed his nose at the federal government and the national media picked up the story and runs with it March. Twenty Seventh Acting Marshal Service Director Henry Hudson briefed on developments in the weaver case Hudson asked. Us Attorney Reese Ellsworth to consider dismissing the warrant and reissuing it under a seal ellsworth rejects. This proposal. Hudson directs That any plan to arrest weaver must eliminate the possibility of harm to Vicky the Children Marshall Service Enforcement Division branch chief Arthur Roderick is given the primary responsibility for devising a suitable plan to arrest weaver a three-phase operational plan is developed again at this point the. Us government is trying their best to handle the situation peacefully a situation entirely created by Randy. Weaver and his family by. They're not picking on him the trying to arrest a man who refuses to come to court. Who's been refusing for over a year now between April second and April twelfth phase. One of the operation plan operation northern exposure carried out by US marshals the marshalls conduct surveillance on the property and determined technical requirements for additional surveillance on April thirteenth. Acting Director Hudson approves the Operation Plan for phase. Two during which surveillance cameras will be utilized to gather info about the family's daily actions so that options can be developer face three the actual arrest randy so much taxpayer money being devoted to arrest in one stubborn shit. That pisses me off. I hate this waste of money. I hated his fuckers. Has been paid in some kind of patriotic hero by so many when all he did was wasted bunch of taxpayer money so far he just looks more like a domestic terrorist. A hero to me. I do not feel bad about the Handy. Randy jokes now From April seventeenth through the first week of May marshals. Install you Surveillance cameras on ridges overlooking weaver property getting more Intel. On April Eighteenth. The marshals service is informed by that a TV crew from Geraldo Rivera's program. Now can be told have been shot at while flying over the property in a helicopter. Weaver will deny this. The helicopter pilot. Richard Weiss eventually does give evidence to the FBI. Denying this as well. On May fifth one of the marshals service surveillance cameras is destroyed by Randy What is he thinking that? This is all just going to go away right that he can win this fight. They can just wait it out or do you think in the apocalypse will come and just deal with it on. May Twenty seven undercover plan is developed by the Marshall Service. Now after acting director of Hudson rejects plans to forcibly arrest weavers and other abandoning their previous plan. Right they're not going to go with phase three after all the surveillance and just arresting with either lethal or nonlethal. Weapons like nope. Let's be more patient. Now they come up with an undercover operation. That will involve the Marshall Service. Bind a plot of land north of the weaver property then to deputy marshals We'll go undercover poses. Husband and wife by the visit developed property the star. There's they'll start to build a fucking cabin and hope that the opportunity to arrest weaver will arise right out of the presence outside the presence of other family members. This plan is put on hold pending. Hudson's comes confirmation as director by us by the US Senate the fact that this plan was even considered to me shows that the US government went to great lengths and was willing to spend a lot of money to arrest one dude for refusing to show up to his court. Date Way to make a mountain out of a Molehill Randy The Court of public opinion seems to see you as a victim. I do not in early. August of ninety. Two Hudson gives a verbal approval to the undercover plan after being confirmed as Marshall Service director on August seventeenth deputy marshals Degan Cooper Rodrick. Thomasson Hunt Arrive in North Idaho to update intelligence for this undercover plant. Like they're actually GONNA try and go through with this The Ruby Ridge command post has now grown into its own little city. They have a bridge That they had to build had widened some roads to accommodate all the agents involved in this plan on August twentieth. Ninety two deputy marshals Roderick Cooper Degan and hunt along with some other local marshals. Deputy Sheriff's use a firing range West Spokane Washington to test the weapons as part of a You Know Internal Marshall Service practices the final phase of operation. Northern EXPOSURE BEGINS ON AUGUST. Twenty first two thirty. A. M. A. Marshall Service team of Roderick Cooper Degan hunt North and Thomas leave a condominium at Schweitzer Mountain to begin surveillance of the weaver residence at four thirty. Am The Marshall Service team arrives? The residents of neighbors Wayne and Ruth Row Parker vehicle and moved to surveillance positions on Ruby rich. The team splits into two three man teams what was called the why the observation post op team hunt. North and Thomas go to the site above the weaver compound while the reconnaissance recon team Roderick Cooper Degan proceed up the trail from Hawaii and the train toward the family's cabin at nine. Am The RECON team joins the O. P. Team the observation post above the cabin to discuss observations the RECON team then proceeds to an area two hundred to two hundred fifty yards from the cabin where Roderick tosses rocks the direction of the weaver home. The rocks are meant to see if they will alert the Weavers Labrador retrievers and initially. They don't the RECON team then moved to a garden. Spring House area but Below the Cabin Randy Kevin and Sammy or outside and armed. They're always armed at this point. Sammy Weaver is fourteen years old. My son Keiler is fourteen in the thought of him. Making patrol the family property with a loaded rifle at his hand. While knowing that armed federal agents are patrolling the property because they want to arrest me makes me fucking sick bothers me so much. I would never do that to. My son is supposed to protect your family protect. Their children not recklessly endangered them. How Dare Randy involve his innocent son in his delusional standoff. Fight your own fights right. I bit my tongue numerous times when I've dealt with nonsense for some crazy individuals Doodle harassment online towards me in part. Because I'm a public figure right. There's things I wanted to say to them things I wanted to email or whatever and I haven't for the most part most because I worry about retaliation not coming back towards me. Become a back towards my kids. I never mentioned my home address. Publicly your safe at school. My kids go to write the least I can do. Try and keep them safe. You know as much as we can in our public world now. Randy didn't do any of this man. He didn't seem to give any thoughts to the welfare of his family. About keeping them safe during neither Vicky ten. Am while the RECON team gets ready to leave the garden. Spring House area north at the observation post radios that have vehicles approaching the weavers responding. Then one of the dogs striker picks up one of the Marshall Sense and the dog is now on the trail. This worship starts to go real south. The RECON team starts to retreat through the woods towards firm field while now being pursued by Kevin Harrison striker as the RECON team passes the firm field proceeding towards the y fourteen year old. Sammy is seen with Harris and the dog in pursuit as well and again how dare Randy nut co? Off fucking son. He's knowingly putting him in harm's way to describe what happens next we turn to an account given up to by the author of the main source book we used for for this portion of the sock. Ruby Ridge bigest Walzer best rated book. We could find the New York Times reviewed as having stunning job of reporting Jess critically acclaimed author who grew up and lives nearby in Spokane Washington. So thank you just for giving us such great source to lean on and of course he's a ton of other sources but a ten thirty. Am with the dog putting the agents on retreat Roderick Things they can take cover slides behind a tree. Looks back up the hill where he sees striker the dog? Kevin Harris running behind the big yellow lab breaking over the top of the hill but one hundred yards away aiming straight for him. He realizes this could all go down right now but he also hopes that they can still get away with that. A gunfight torn with adrenaline and fear the deputies. Now run alongside a logging road from one stand of trees to another twigs branches of crack their steps. They stopped turned several times covering each other. Hoping the dog will turn back and said the dog gaining the weavers usually would stop at the rock outcropping. Why would they coming further down the hill? Now we have to take this dog out. Rodrick said he's leading everybody to us over shoulder. Cooper's flashes yellow between the trees shadows a movement behind the dog. He takes for people ahead. He realizes they're going to have to run through a clearing before the reach next to trees. They're going to be wide open for fire from above. They're going to be sitting ducks he thinks. Tina's buddies might be able to get away without a firefight. This is Bullshit. He says newsradio Head said. We're going to run down the trail and get shot in the back. We need to get into the woods. The dog is barking still chasing him the marshalls fan out. Stop in the woods. Breathing heavily listened for the rusting of brush and timber ride. They're bouncing down the hill shuffling sideways. Taking turns is the last in line cover. Retreat of the others Cooper tells the others to go ahead a little bit and he'll take care of the dog if it gets too close. He has a nine millimeter machine gun with a silencer hopes. The Weavers won't won't hear his shot to be has to take the dog out Roderick and Degan make canopy To a canopy treeline while Cooper continues running sidestep keeping an eye on the trees while he hears a dog barking and the crackle of men running behind him. Then it all seems to go down at once. Cooper sees someone on the higher trail with trail above them and the realization that had fallen into an ambush hits him. He yells at the main on the upper trail. Back-off US Marshal. Rodrick sees him to yells at him. Cooper here's the dog barked. Turns sees a growling at him. He points his rifle the dog but then it runs right past him towards Rodrick Cooper does not see the dog when he looks back at the trail. Randy weaver is now running away in his peripheral vision. Cooper sees Degan duck into the woods and so he runs behind him thirty or forty feet. Inside the treeline deacon jumps behind a big stump near him cooper spies a whole protected by a rock he dives into it. The dog is still barking. Kevin dressed in black sammy and jeans and a flannel shirt. Walking along the trail coming closer to him from his stump Degan sees Kevin and Sam. Sam was the same age as his youngest boy. She's a walk right past him. When the boys are past cooper relaxed a little thing that they might be safe they might get away without a firefight and then several things happened in rapid succession. The dog moves towards Rodrick. Degan rises on his knee. Do identify himself. And in the thick of who shot first stories both sides agree that everything went to Hell? It Hits Randy runs back towards the cabin They run smack into a Zionist occupied government. Ambush that's what he's thinking. He's been at the fork and the logging road would man covered to toe in camouflage had stepped out behind a tree and Yeltsin him. Fuck you randy yelled back. He run about eighty yards back up the road towards the cabin when he hears the first shots. Sharp echoing through the timber. Sammy and Kevin her down there. He thinks Sam Kevin get home. He fires around into the air from his twelve gauge. Double Barrel Shotgun. He loads another shell but he's too eager pushes it too far and jams his shotgun. He draws his nine millimeter handgun squeezes off three more rounds Sam Kevin. Here's his son's voice. I'm coming dead. Then there's more shots. He hears from down the hill. Someone yells there's a burst in all directions You Know Kevin Harris Wheels and fires has thirty ought six hitting forty two year old deputy. Us Marshal Billy Degan square in the chest. Larry Cooper sees. His friend knocked back seizes arm. Fly Up he lays the line of fire right back at Kevin Harris who falls like a sack of potatoes. He hears digging. Yo Koop Koop I need you. Obey their billy. As soon as I can get him off our ass hang with me. He squeezes switch on his hand calls for Roderick in the radio. Get up here already. Billy's been hit but roderick has his own problems just down the trail. The dog is run up to him. Roderick shot down the back so it won't lead the family to him and then fourteen year old. Sammy appears in front of him sees it. He is shot his dog striker and allegedly yells. You son of a bitch and then Sammy overcome with anger begins to fire at Marshall Rodrick. What a fucking mess. Another round of fire seems to come from the woods and Roderick dives and bounces feeling something grazes stomach just as a bullet tears through his shirt comes within a breadth of hitting his chest then according to one former officer on the scene as Sammy turns to run away. He is shot multiple times in the back. Deputy Marshal Degan. Sammy would both die from their gunshot wounds. All because the weavers just refuse to obey the fucking law upon hearing the shots the team run into the woods to assist recon team and are fired upon when running from the field to the Y. None of the marshalls are aware at this point. That Sammy Weaver has been shot and killed at ten forty five. Am Hunt and Thomas. Leave the white to go to the Rowhouse to call for Assistance Roderick Cooper nor stay with Deacon's body at eleven twenty. M Hunt makes a nine one one emergency call to the Boundary County Sheriff's Office and Bonner's ferry at eleven forty a m. The Marshals Service Crisis Center is activated under the Director of Duke Smith. Associate Director for operations. The Marshall Service Special Operations Group SOG is alerted to deploy hunt reports of the crisis. Center the surveillance team came under fire from occupants. The Weaver compound is that they are still pinned down under fire in defensive positions at one thirty PM in Washington. Dc Marshall Service Director Hudson other Marshall Service officials meet with the FBI. Associate Deputy Director. Douglas cow an F. B. I. Assistant Director Larry Potts to discuss the response to the shooting and the marshalls predicament on Ruby. Rich in the late afternoon assistant director orders the FBI hostage rescue team hr to be deployed to Ruby Ridge. The team this team is basically a group of the world's most bad ass snipers a martial has been killed their done fucking around with the weavers on Ruby Ridge at six thirty PM. Hr Commander Richard Rodgers and the advanced team of HR IT personnel depart for Idaho accompanied by Marshall Service Director of Operations Duke Smith while in route Rogers has a series of conversations with assistant director pots and Deputy Assistant Director. Kelsen about proposed about proposed rules of engagement at one. Pm The Idaho State police critical response team to cri crt excuse me as form is informed of the incident and proceeds to form a command post near the Rowhouse at eight thirty PM. The Idaho State police. Crt leaves the command post to rescue deputy marshals Roderick Cooper and Norris and You know get the body of Marshall Degan at nine thirty PM. Fbi Special Agent in charge. Gene Glenn arrives at the command post at Ruby Ridge. Glenn assumes overall responsibility for the F. B. I. Operations at Ruby Rich meanwhile US Marshal. Michael Johnson has notified. Us Attorney Ellsworth of the shooting at Ruby Ridge. Those were sent Ron how into Ruby Ridge to act as US Attorney's representative he rides Ruby Ridge late in the evening at one. Am Idaho State police. Crt arrives back at the command. Post brings with it. The three deputy marshals and the body of deceased Deputy Marshal Degan the other marshalls are then taken to the Boundary County Hospital for examination then taken back to their condominium at Sweitzer mountain arrived in approximately three. Am sometime in the afternoon FBI agents interview marshals involved in the August twenty first incident? A criminal complaints filed charging weaver and Harris with the murder of deputy. Degan at four forty five the HR team arrives in Idaho at nine. Am The HR team commander Dick Rodgers briefs. Hr Team members from a national guard. Armory and Bonner's ferry. The rules of engagement for this mission are being changed are still being drafted at ten thirty. Am The age RT and saw or assembling a new operations plan the whole buying some neighboring land pretending to be locals building the cabin hoping Randy Swings by and his lonesome that plans fucking dead by that ended. The second agent was shot at two forty PM. The operations plan including new rules of engagement are sent the FBI headquarters and the Marshall Service for review the new rules of engagement. Give the snipers more freedom than his Standard with FBI policy in unprecedented domestic action. Fbi history these rules basically state if any adult is armed is okay to shoot and kill them and at risk of. Awesome Federal Libertarian type listeners. I do not disagree with these rules in this particular case at this particular point the weavers in my opinion have taken should way too far way too far if anything. They've been given way too many chances to end this peacefully can't stress this enough already has had to do with turn himself in. He's had so many fucking chances right he would have been found. Guilty of a weapons charge served very little time if anything's to having no prior record the weavers could've kept living there insane anti-government viral racist. You know kill them all and bring about the apocalypse shitty backwards lives between two thirty and three thirty PM. H artiste sniper observers. A brief on approve rules of engagement or briefed on those they depart on foot two observation posts on the mountain from five or seven to five twenty two PM. The sniper observation team arrives at their positions on the ridge overlooking the weaver cabin Meanwhile Randy has discovered that his son is dead from Kevon returns to the Cabin. The go back out to get the boy. Bring him to guest home. They had on the property to clean his wounds as randy has his hands up on his head above his head on the building in his grief in HR sniper Lou Horiuchi fires around Wounds Randy through the armpit randy wounded as able to make his way back to his cabin with Kevin. The main cabin as randy and Kevin are returning home. Vicky appears at the door to greet them distraught over the loss of her son and now wounded husband. She's holding her ten month old baby daughter Sheba when at approximately five fifty eight. Pm Horiuchi Fires a round through Vicki's head just missing the baby. The bullet also wounds Kevin Harrison his shoulder breaking two ribs stopping just inches from his heart. Initially a Horiuchi does not realize he shoots Vicky in the head. I do of course wish this shot had not been fired. She was not holding a gun. I'm sure the agent of wishes he could take it back because well she was not arm. She was holding a baby not sure why they couldn't. Just wait for a better shot on Randy your Kevin and left Vicky alone at this moment Rucci also again does not realize Vicki's been killed Six thirty PM an ABC. An armed personnel carrier arrived at the cabin area. The F. hostage negotiator delivers a message over loudspeaker. That there are arrest warrants randy and Kevin asked weaver to please accept negotiations By telephone for his you know attorney himself in at eight. Pm HR sniper observer teams and saw personnel were withdrawn from their mountain posts because of the cold weather during the evening. Fbi SWAT teams are deployed around the command post and control access to the road leading in and out of the weaver cabin there are masses of people media surrounding the area demanding Info on. What's going on many our neighbors others who come from faraway supporting the anti-government and or Aaron 'cause they see Randy is standing for summer. Yelling things to law enforcement officers like you are a traitor to your race. They're holding signs about Zog and about the new world order. It's a fucking circus. It's madness Lotta. People focused on all the government personnel weapons that made it to Ruby Ridge and frame. It is the Government ABUSING ITS POWER. But what they seem to fail to recognize is that the government did not send a bunch of firepower. Up Drew Ridge Ridge on day one or day two or day. Three hundred sixty five. They gave him well over a year to just go to court but they couldn't do that why because they were crazy. Thought the government was part of a new world order conspiracy part of a Zionist plot to destroy Christianity at six. Am August twenty third the HR teams are sent back to their positions. On the mountain. They arrived there about seven thirty. H RT COMMANDER. Rogers takes two teams of HR personnel to the weaver. Cabin area makes repeat announcements over the bullhorn for those inside to enter into negotiations. No response is given which makes me hate randy that much more. His SON IS DEAD. His wife is dead. He still has three daughters on that Ridge. Three daughters who are very much alive and he doesn't do fuck all to protect them right now at eight. Oh One. Pm ABC's armored. Personnel carriers are used to demolish buildings near the weaver cabin by during the clearing of a shed Before being destroyed the body of Sammy. Weaver is found. None of the officers knew that Samya died. Only the family knew soon everyone would know in the fury of the crowd and the people watching around the world would intensify I hate the Randy now. Gets to be paid as a victim. Meanwhile Harris charged with murder and weaver is charged with lesser crimes. The next day August. Twenty four th negotiations to try and make contact with Randy. Weaver are made using the loudspeaker unaware the Vicki's man shot and killed the address Vicki. Weaver for the first time they ask if she will let her. Kids have pancakes and come out of the cabin. No response from her. Of course it's heard And then something. Super Weird happens on the twenty fourth as well apparently robotic vehicle with a gun and it's robot claw are sent in on the twenty fourth. The robot tries to take a telephone into the weaver home. Randy will not open the door. He assured that this robot is some sign of the apocalypse the next day on the twenty fifth negotiators continue to focus efforts on surrender efforts. Include statements directed specifically at Vicki. Weaver again no response is heard from the cabin. The Weaver family will later claimed that the yelled back. You killed her ten fifty three. Am in the following day. The rules of engagement that were in effect since the arrival of the HR or now reflect at the direction of Glen the FBI standard deadly force policy replaces the new rules of engagement to guide law enforcement personnel deployed on cabin perimeter concerning the use of deadly force at approximately three PM. The first contact is made with Randy. He says he wants to talk to his sister. Marches Joy Morris attempts to speak with Randy. Weaver the next day but is unsuccessful. Getting him to come out and surrender the next day again on the twenty eighth further attempts by Martin's joy or made to speak with river negotiate a surrender also unsuccessful. He's a stubborn bastard so now the FBI decides to bring in a famous name in the Patriot movement at the time war hero. Colonel Bo Gritz a decorated Vietnam Vet associated with right wing causes. He's brought into trying to negotiate a surrender This was a dude who is running for president in nineteen ninety two under the slogan. God guns grits. Someone who clearly spoke language. Let's take a moment to meet Bo. Gritz I heard so much about do grown up a lot of my dad's friends love this dude. And we're voting form There's many places you can learn about grits of one of those places out the southern poverty law center's website under fighting hate He's considered an extremist and racist the ESPN has recently been called out by many right and center leading people's hey group themselves but for decades they have been the best authority on hate in the US. I personally think they've done a damn fine job of exposing hate groups Grits has been described as a supposed inspiration for Sylvester Stallone's character in the original Rambo movie. First Blood Grits has dedicated himself for decades to denouncing the new world order he's trained army of Anointed Eternal Warriors in the battle against evil that resides in high places according to grits and I do have enormous respect for him as a soldier. Grateful for a service that being said he also seems completely insane. He's a big doomsday Zionist. Guys will for years bows traveled. The country offering a series of well attended paramilitary training sessions under the acronym. Spike specially prepared individuals for key events in these sessions in the Pricey twelve parts. Spike video series. He also sells He teach people skills he learned in Vietnam and elsewhere from close quarters combat field interrogation techniques. He wants to prepare you for the new world order invasion. He's been saying could happen any day now for about thirty years. Which has you know has not happened. thousands of men and women have emerged from his elaborate training seminars. With the know how to fight. War many have gone on to join. The violence. Prone wings of the extremists. Anti-government movements bogaerts is a war hero. Who you could also make the argument as turned into a domestic terrorist trainer. Now back to Ruby Ridge five fifteen pm on August. Twenty eight ninety two. Weaver agreed to talk to bow at six. Fifty eight Bo enters. The Weaver compound speaks with Randy. The cabin he advises him to the FBI and other law enforcement's You know are coming for him yell so you'll find out that Vicky has been killed and tells the FBI law enforcement that also tells them. Kevin Harris has been wounded and is not doing well the following day. August twenty ninth grits and a family friend. Jackie Brown speak with Randy again as well as his daughters And the wounded Kevin Harris at five zero seven PM. Jackie Brown enters the weaver cabin. This family friend gives randy gives her letter that the failure wrote in case they were killed. I can only imagine what this letter said. Dear Zionist overlords handy randy in sticky Vicki. Here good job. You did it. You killed us. Congrats on getting rid of two more good Christians. Jewish Tannock Bastards. I hope you're happy with yourself up. All this was worth burning in hell for all of eternity. Goddamn fucking Subhi mud people. What can you just let us do what we wanted. Follow only the laws we choose to spend as and peace going to super racist area nation cookouts training ourselves to be militias members. Who ARE GONNA help overthrow the corrupt American government Weaver Friends Jackie Brown also allowed to clean the kitchen of Vicki's blood when she comes into the weaver cabin at nine ten PM. She tells law enforcement at Harris's close to death August thirtieth the following morning Harris. Who's about to die? Decides to surrender after talking with grits and Jack mclamb retired police officer assisting grits Bull Warns Randy that if he does not let Harris out of the cabin to be treated for his rapidly worsening wounds that he and the world will hold randy responsible for Kevin's death. Okay I'm like Mr Grits. A little bit more right now. Still think he's crazy but even another member of this crazy ideology seem to realize that Randy is responsible for some of this shit. Six twenty seven. Pm Jackie Brown Bo. Gritz Kerry Vicki Weaver's body out from the cabin after delivering the body. Jackie Brown returns into the cabin to clean the blood off the floor. The following day grits is told by the hostile wreckage. Rescue Team Commander. Dick Rogers. That have bow. Can't talk them out. We will take them out at nine. Forty am randy mclamb. Return to the cabin to begin. Negotiations Randy tells his girls that he believes they will be okay and that they're going to get out alive now is their chance he begs. Randy's surrender finally randy and his children do so over the next few days so he surrendered on August thirty first over the next few days Searches of the weaver. Kevin Grounds and outbuildings are conducted under the supervision of the FBI. On September sixteenth. Grand jury indicts Kevin Harrison Randy weaver for assault and murder of Deputy Marshal Degan the next day. Weaver pleads not guilty to aiding and abetting Deputy Marshal diggins murder the day after that Harris pleaded innocent to murdering deputy marshal digging on October first. A grand jury returns with the ten count indictment against weaver and Harris adding conspiracy count amongst others to earlier charges on April thirteenth ninety-three. The Harris Weaver trial begins in federal court and Boise Idaho. Jury selection begins for the murder conspiracy trial And then on July eighth the trial is over and the jury acquits weaver and Harris for the murder of Degan. The federal government could not prove weaver and Harris were not acting in self-defence. Harris has also acquitted of all other charges against him. We were convicted on count. Three failure to appear in court and count nine committing an offence while on release. He's found not guilty of the other counts weavers incarcerated pending sensing and then. October eighteenth cents to eighteen months. Fourteen of which he's already served three years of probation and the receives a ten thousand dollar fine for his conviction for failure to appear in for committing infants. While on release after that after all this happened right after all this happened because he wouldn't show up for a charge. Send Him in the end to prison for eighteen months right. I can only imagine if you would have went. Initially we've gotten even less trouble right in that his wife and son would still be alive at so crazy. December of ninety-three Weavers released from incarceration and August at the following year. We've earned Kevin Harris file. Three hundred million dollar civil lawsuit against you as government for the wrongful death of Sammy Vicki. Weaver the following year in August of ninety five the Justice Department agrees to pay weaver. Three point one million in compensation for killing his wife and son Randy receive one hundred thousand each of his daughters. Get a million each each Million and I gotta say this bothers me Randy created this mess and now he's getting paid for it. The government did not force him to arm his young son and send him to war against the government. Randy did that and he did that because he was a racist conspiratorial maniac right and so was his wife. They both recklessly endangered. Their kids lives because of their belief in this ignorant. Shit I feel sorry for the daughters because they choose to be involved in this situation their parents did. I think it's bullshit. Got A fucking dime from the government for any of this in the fall and we says if I had to do it again knowing what I know now I would have come down from the mountain for the quarter parents. Yeah you fucking think I would not let my fears in the fears of my family key me from coming down but my wrongs did not cause federal agents to commit crimes. I have been accountable for my choices but no federal agent has been brought to justice for the killings of Salmon Vicki Weaver. I don't like this half apology in my opinion Randy Weaver. If you're listening to blood is on your hands. You picked this fight. You put your family in position for this to happen. You turned a fourteen year old into an armed guard and send him to war with the federal government. You did that. You never took responsibility in one thousand nine hundred six weaver now. Viewed as a hero in the northwest militia culture teamed up with Bo Gritz and offered to help another standoff between the Montana. Freemen and the F. B. I. Their offers to help were declined. Of course they were the fucking crazy two thousand randy. Weaver visit the site of the former branch. Davidian Church and Waco Texas New Church was being built a time weavers visit. He let it be known that he supported the assertion that the government agents deliberately took things too far in Waco writing provoked. The compound set the complex on fire and the government did mess up there. We've been over that but again you know The government didn't make David Crush molest kids. In that compound in September of two thousand despite federal officials voting are vowing that they would never pay someone who had killed. Us Marshal after persistent appeal. Kevin Harris is awarded three hundred eighty thousand dollars settlement from the US government and and that takes us out of today's time. Suck timeline good job soldier. You've made a fact now. What a mess I've I've lived in this research for few days. I'd I just having a hard time seeing a rainy Vicki Weaver's patriots right. I just I don't know how people can see them as anything but domestic terrorists who needs endangered the lives of their four children stubbornly persisted in standoff the stemmed at refused to take responsibility and go to court for a weapons charge. Rainy would later be found guilty of and what was that weapon charge related to his way to wanting to go to war with the US government. That is what a terrorist us. Right there hanging out in the nation's compound around other people who wanted to take a race war to the US government right. I mean the motivation to resist that court date stemmed from a complete lack of respect for the government for Law Enforcement Law Rain Victor Delusional racists. Who believed that it was satanic to be Jewish? They regularly associated again with Richard. Butler's you know Skinheads a group of people who believe that all non whites are subhuman. Mud People Randy went from a member of the military to someone who had no respect for the military. No respect for law enforcement no respect to the LAGA. I mean just how ironic that far right. Extremists consider him to be a Patriot when he hated America. I think he still does today. He's seventy two years old believed to be living in or near Kalispell Montana. He won't give interviews anymore based on the most recent interviews I can find. He seems to still see himself as a victim. The recipient of the abuse dish Dow by tyrannical government. He was interviewed about a decade after the standoff when he returned to live to Iowa for time weaver was asked what he thought about. Timothy McVeigh's execution for Timothy's murderers role in the one thousand nine hundred five Oklahoma City bombing. We were said that quote there should be a bunch of federal agents line right beside him on a Gurney. He said that the real enemy. The federal government was still at large. He said that the real enemy continues to violate the constitution. He said the Timothy McVeigh the dude who killed one hundred sixty eight innocent people including nineteen children was just trying to make a point. He said he was going to be judged during executioner. No different than the Federal Government. One has a badge one. Don't what delusional asshole the? Us government is done a lot of bad things however done a lot more. Good things you know. We hear about cases of police brutality. Police violence abuses of power by those things happen to make the news and they become big stories. Well we don't hear about all the Times a cop or a marshal or an FBI agent. Keep someone safe by stopping an act of terrorism or arresting someone who should be arrested because oh stories aren't sexy but they happen every single day over and over again every single day officers in every state of the nation protect society by arresting bad people for doing bad things. And we'll never know how many lives they've saved by doing. So I might only be alive right now. Because some dirtbag I've never met got arrested and got put behind bars and was never able to do whatever he or she was going to do to me. My wife and my kids are you and yours ever think about things like that. Does the government wastes some of our tax dollars. Of course could some reforms make our great country even better could be more effectively spent. Of course I could armchair politician all day and think of ways that my mind would improve the average American citizens quality life. Should we keep our eyes on the government and help make sure they know abused the great power they wield of course but all that being said. I do not believe the weavers did that at its heart the. Us Government is some evil corrupt empire in if they hadn't deliberately set themselves on a path to confront and defy this evil corrupt regime. They would still be alive. I get not wanting to be told what to do by other humans. I really do. I don't like rules. I hate being bossed around. Hate being told what to do. But you know we. We live in a world of loss. So so you're going to be better off if you try and follow him in. If you don't get busted you go to court. I don't I don't follow all the laws you know. Weeds not legal in Idaho by dude. I use it anyway and if I busted guess what I'm GonNa do I'm GonNa go to Fucking Court L. Am I also started petition to change laws or legally protests? I'm going to for sure. Talk Shit. About how dumb Anti Weed. Laws are on this podcast and in my standup When I'M NOT GONNA do is hold up with my family in the House and let authorities know they're not taking me without an arm fuck and fight because that is ridiculous. That is those the actions of a maniac so so don't be a maniac and don't think randy weaver is anything but a maniac time now for top five takeaways. Take away number one. They're around four hundred law enforcement. Officials called in from all over the country to deal with randy his wife his kids and a family friend. Lot of taxpayer money. Millions of dollars spent on one dude who didn't want to face criminal charges number two. The government did make some mistakes when it came to handle this situation at least one. Bi Excuse me at least one FBI AGENT. Maybe got a little trigger happy. The government did end up paying over three million dollars to the weavers for basically using excessive force in this engagement number three believing that Armageddon is coming soon has made exactly zero people's lives better so don't believe that number four randy. Weaver refused to leave his property for roughly a year and a half to avoid going to court and then after the whole mess you heard about today. He had to go to court so go to court. It's not the nineteen twenties anymore. You don't get to sneak across state lines and hide out from the copper and then start a new life you get caught and number five new info kind of. I believe I've mentioned this before but I can't find my old notes after a bit of searching. I WanNa make it clear that the air nations compound that Randy and his family visit is no longer in North Idaho. It's founder Richard Butler died in two thousand fourteen age. Eighty six lived along hateful life and the compound was lost before he died. In two thousand Victorian Jason Keenan an American Indian mother and son were harassed at gunpoint by Aryan nations security guards. They went on to successfully sue. Butler in the compound represented by local attorney Norm Gasol and Morris Dees Montgomery Alabama based Southern Poverty Law Center. They WANNA combine civil judgment of six point. Three million dollars from Butler and from the nation's members who attacked him in Butler was forced to give his racist anti-government compound to the Keenan's they sold it to the car foundation. Who then gave it to the North Idaho College Foundation in all of the compounds buildings were torn down and the land became just a beautiful slice of forest once again. That lane was put up for sale to raise endowment money recently for North Idaho College and it was not sold two skinheads so please know that. North Idaho has changed. We've had our share of nuts We are also no longer the land of Ruby Ridge in the Aryan nations. Take Away Ruby Ridge sucked. That's GONNA piss awesome with this one. You know what I looked at these conclusions. I came to and I'm just glad I know a lot more about a topic that has been brought up so many times around me and my youth. I'm sure it's GONNA come up again in some future. Conversation with a relative of mine and I'm sure we're not going to agree and I'm sure that I'm going to build a speak a lot more intelligently about it than I used to be able to reminds me to kill dozer tail. Joan are talking about that before the recording. By you look online. You read the Youtube comments and manages to out a lot of people wanna read into some of these stories just desperately want these people to be martyrs and Bend Die Hard Patriots. That's not true man. Somebody who just doesn't want to follow the law to me. How's that a fucking Patriot fucking terrorist? big thank you to the time so team. Thanks to Queen of the sock combs high priest of the suck harmony. Veldkamp Reverend Dr Paisley the biddle design crew Logan Keta Spicy club running bad magic merge dot com in the script keepers act. Flannery check out of the cold curious private facebook group. If you WANNA make some new friends thank you to count the Colts Hernandez for being a kick ass administrator over sixteen thousand meets acts to meet their Hail Nimrod. Thank you to the scene. Is the cold helping Liz Darlene? Robbie Ericsson Meghan. How Danny Ryan Jacob Kerry and Juan Carlos Ramirez Darius all's the time suck discord channel via the time suck APP has over fifty two hundred die-hard suckers being goofy over there. Keep growing keep growing Thank you beefsteak for doing so much to keep discord weird and fun and percents friends out to say hi to me in DC Next week we have a topic that may as I write. This also win. The Next Spaces Vote Herald Shipman Aka Dr Death British doctor who killed over two hundred his patients before his arrest in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. He initially thrived a family practitioner before allegedly becoming addicted to painkillers. He forged prescriptions to large amounts of the drug You know he was forced to leave the practice when he was caught by medical colleagues. Nineteen seventy five. At which time he entered a rehab program in the subsequent inquiry he received a small fine and conviction for forgery. Few years later he was back the doctrine in a few years after that a local undertaker notice the doctor shipments patients seem to be dying it. Unusually high rate and exhibited similar poses in death most fully closed usually sitting reclining. Dr Shipman convinced the undertaker. There was nothing to worry about but in fact there was a lot to worry about. Dr Shipman would go on killing for many many years after the undertaker became initially suspicious. And then you know what happened. You have to find out a next Monday. Find out next Monday on another true crime addition of time suck now. Let's get to the e mails of you've been kind enough to send in for today's time sucker. Updates I up Eric Super Sucker. Graham no stranger to being a victim of Cummins law. Eric writes dear. Suck Master Holy Shit. I learned about a new way. Cummins locking screw you. I was making delivery. One of those large family chain are large chain family hotels. The head of receiving is really cool guy and after talking to him forbid I thought yeah I started talking about the brothers Grimm episode. He was a few huge fan of them grownup sweet so casually asked if he'd heard the story about the children the slaughter he said no so excitedly. I decided to share it with him. Well right as I got to. The part about the kid gets his throat. Cut this woman. Probably in her twenties walks right past us. I don't see what I had. My back tour shouldn't fully turn around but I definitely got a look from her and then she kept walking heap and not a good one to walk on. It wasn't like I could apologize. Explain it how would sound. Oh sorry miss. I was retailers story from Book About Children About Children. Killing another kid. But don't worry it was all just a game. Ha Ha well hope you enjoyed my tail so far? I'm still employed with my company. So that's a plus also recently work. I made a mention about how I didn't want it to deliver How I didn't want to deliver to a Polish person when I was asked why by fellow employees. I call myself trying to explain to them. Just said I just kidding man. You've got to hold me man. I guess so. Eric making you look crazy to other people as I looked other people. And then Eric wrote. Ps We met in December or we met in Denver back in November. Jesus and asked about the guy that had the sick baby that update the broke so many of our hearts. I was curious if you guys have an update him or his family Seriously Dan everyone at times. Thanks for all you deal. You've magical praise be to triple M Nimrod definitely loose fina anti you guys loved you all into my fellow cult members. Keep on Sucking Eric Foot in my mouth Graham. Thanks Eric I appreciate what you said so much. No no update on Adam situation. That I'm aware of Allman hope that no news is good news. I'm not intrude on him and ask. I'm sure you understand about that But if we if we hear something we we will let everybody know so he'll Nimrod in trying to get fired. It'd be careful top-shelf meat sack. Michael are via or Villa Villa via narrates the other with a reminder to be constantly vigilant. Michael writes good. Prevening pre evening south team. I just finished the girl scout cookie murders girl scout cookie bar. Sorry that is. Maybe I don't think that way. I'm a little behind since I lost my car but I'm catching up. I wanted to address the things children here in seat about two months ago my girls told me they were being watched while they slept. My initial response was less than fatherly. I said how can you tell if someone's watching you sleep if you're asleep? The then told me that they'd seen outside the window again. I didn't believe him. I told me go back to bed. The kids rooms downstairs and their windows in are gated backyard. We're left my dog out because the rumors downstairs. It's also halfway underground. Which means they're window is a ground level so it's easy for me to brush it off as them just seeing the dog outside or whatever a month and a half goes by with nothing else happened but then one nine dog growling barking installing the window. Downstairs laundry area by little brother runs downstairs to see the dog and then he sees the guys feet outside the window. This is about six pm because dark pretty early around this time in Colorado Springs. We ran outside to see if we can catch this guy standing outside the window but he'd taken off down. The street disappeared. Had my dog when able to break the windows. You probably would've eaten them. The kids have been sleeping in the living room. And since then I moved cameras to see the outside of the house better. I now keep both my porch lights on at night. I'm constantly checking my locks after listening to the girl scout murders. I realized I would have done with those councillors. Did my kids told me about a guy a couple months ago and I wrote it off as nothing but my dog then confirmed it with my eyes a month and a half later that they were right. Haven't able to stop thinking about how i Nord their words and then that it could have been there last words because of what was going on. It's a scary world. We meet sacks living but it will be a cold day in nimrods butthole before. Let someone her my children. I understand where the the counselors could've easily written off a child's claim because I did that with my own girls but I can assure you I will check every claim they make from now on. It was a real wakeup call as annoying as false claim could be. I don't want to write the one real claim off. Would it could be their last. I know it's a long email but it had to share my tail and spread the word. He'd your children's claims one day it could be real and I'd hate to see it in the news hail Nimrod keep on sucking yes scary. Shit Michael and I think it would have done the same thing you know initially as well Not now though the after That sock not after. You know a message like this. Great Reminder to be extra vigilant because you never know I think about that more. The Joseph Duncan Suckers. Well best to take fewer chances. Most people are good. I believe that very much but the small minority that are not good man they can be so very very bad and because of those bad assholes rest of us need to watch our backs and watch after each other so thank you for sending that in time. Sucker extraordinaire Virak Lee now has a powerful personal connection to share about last week's Chimera Rouge suck. Barack writes her. Hey Sir sucker of time I just wanted to say thank you for Educating People about that Asshole Pol Pot in the killing fields of Cambodia. My mother was a kid there during all this chaos. She is still traumatized by to this day. My mom would tell me things she had witnessed and it would blow my mind. How ruthless Camaros fuckers? Were they gave no shits about human life. They murdered my mom's sister and her kids and also starved. My GRANDPA to death. She once told me she saw these soldiers who were helping this lady give birth to a child then threw her baby in the air and bayoneted the baby after it was delivered Focke Show also told me that she remembers the smell of a bunch of dead bodies burning when she was in a little village area. She had to stay in. These guys were sick in the head. They would even kick my mom's food over onto the dirt. Laugh at my mom will call in her. Name's when the Khmer Rouge were coming to an end. They had my mother run into the jungle and then they shot her bullets whizzed past her and others who had also been running with her while running. She was hit in the shoulder. It knocked her down but then she got up and kept running until she got to Thailand in Thailand. She became a refugee and that eventually was sponsored to come to the states. Sorry for the long essay but love what you're doing with time saw hope you have a great day and fuck Communism Holy Shit Rachman. That is intense. Your mom is strong to power through all of that. I hope for life is amazing. Right now please give her a big hug for me and the team. Tell her how much we love her. Of course. He's traumatized it. What the fuck to any of that have to do with farming by the way right. How did all that cruelty come out of Pol Pot supposed- wish to have people have simpler happier? Agrarian lives like I was such an epic piece of Shit. Anyone who thinks Pol Pot was anything but a piece of shit head checked. Glad you're enjoying the show. Hell Nimrod and sweet sucker nate starling also like to share personal connection to last week's Chimera ru suck writing first time message. Leaving space as nate starling here from Fresno California just wanted to leave a message and say that this recent poll episode was. My Fa- was has been my favorite by far. I've been waiting for decline the charts and finally it became Monday. Suck Hail Nimrod. I want to let you Dan. I want to let you Dan and all the Times that community know this event in history like so many others still affects many vigils individuals to this day. My best friend's older brother's wife is a child of some Cambodian natives who survived an the genocide and made it to the states for privacy reasons. I will not mention my friends nor his wife's names. She was born here in the states after her parents made it here safely. Their journey to come here was not one of choice. They had to escape plain and simple. It was that or die. Her mother and father had already had three three to four children. According to her father they all died of either malnourishment or murder. Her mother and father fought back in the Cambodian jungle. They were tracked down and fired. Upon by Communist forces at the obtained firearms got into a firefight with commere. Rouge had to kill them. To survive is completely otherworldly for me to even think about a poor husband and wife side-by-side Shooting Communists in the Cambodian jungle to stay alive. But that's what happened. The eventually made it to the states. Had more children by friend's wife being one of them. She has said that the events changed her parents forever. They are kind gentle people but her mother constantly has nightmares from PTSD. She also has what seems to be moments of. What feels like schizophrenia. Where she will hide under her bed or excuse me or hide in her closet thinking that the communist regime is coming to get her all over again like I said I have never. It will never ask her about it. Unless you directly brings a topic I just thought I'd tell you. Space third time suckers. A small portion of her parents story I know is not a lot but it's all I know of the event. Just know the things like this happen over four decades ago when they severely affect live still. Today it goes without saying that. Pol Pot was a huge piece of shit and deserves the idiotic title. We have so price we have so precisely given him Hale Nimrod and have a wonderful week yeah thank you. I Bet Ya. Ptsd and a poor country. Hope they have nothing but good times coming in their cultural future and finally kick ass meets. Ms Cooper sends me a message. Made me feel really good. She wrote Daniel the manual. I Apologize. For How lame net name is. I'm a high school teacher. I'm assuming my job would appreciate me calling you. Suck Lord or co-leader or mother fucking mouth just feel I know. I know it's crazy to think that even in twenty twenty parents refuse to believe their kids can say things like fuck not their precious baby anyway. I'm reaching out to let you know how profound lifting the intro to the brothers Grimm suck was from me. I'm a huge fan so as soon as I heard that they were the topic. I knew had to listen to students possible with that. I've gotten several of my students to join the curious but it's still not enough to prove to them. That learning is fun so to re remedy this. I'm using your intro. That suck at Elektra tomorrow for my gift accelerated classes. The students are working on a hero's journey project in which they create a visual representation of their own hero's journey. I find it very important for my students to know what they do and say matters mostly also that they learn that they have a story to tell that is most certainly worth listen. I feel confident. You're in trouble. Light the fire. They need just like it. Did for me yesterday as I listened to that episode inflammation. Thank you for all you and your time. So do I meets keep sucking the truth because I have over. One hundred eighty meets acts. Who Need Truth? Oh and I'm going to your stand up show late April when you come to Atlanta. Could've save every penny my teacher budget to be sure that in addition to my ticket strong drink a good laugh and and an inappropriate teacher that I can never wear to work and one last thing? I wish you and Lindsey. I wish that Lindsey our best bros. Oh my God hilarious fucking best. You're okay to forever learn. Always curious Ms Cooper. The little hippy teacher with green hair that curses intellectuals will thank you MS Cooper. Hope you're right hope. I can inspire some students to tell their stories. I'm honored inspired you. Yes we all have stories to tell. I have so much respect for good. Teachers are so important the world you are the stewards and shepherds of our future nurturing the minds it will suit rule the World Hail Nimrod to you I'll ceased Atlanta and that's all for this week. Thanks time so we all did have a great week. Meet Zack's don't kick off a year and a half long armed standoff with federal agents because you refused to go to court and keep on fucking sucking you have to go to court right now court date. You know I don't they can come get me.

Mr Randy US randy weaver Iowa Idaho Ruby Ridge Vicki FBI Hal Lindsey Jesus Vicky Vicky Amway Randy Lerner Northern Idaho Us Army Google Dr Joe H C J Paisley Baseball Armageddon Randy
5 Weird Ways The 1990s Never Ended

The Cracked Podcast

1:05:33 hr | 6 months ago

5 Weird Ways The 1990s Never Ended

"Hey there folks welcome to another episode of the cracks. Podcast the PODCAST. All about why being alive is more interesting than people think it is. My name is Alex Madam also known as a Muslim Schmidt Champ and I am also also going to play you the song of my youth so if you know that weird robot duck noise you lived through the era. Were exploring today. Our topic today is weird ways. The nineteen ninety s never ended one more time. That is weird ways. The nineteen ninety s never ended. 'cause as one way being alive is more interesting than people think it is is that we are still living in the nineteen nineties in a lot of ways. And we're taking that in a big picture way like it's not that beanie babies are still popular or something. I'm talking about big societal things. Big cultural norms. That are somehow still with us. And I think that's fascinating for everybody whether you lived through a time when you had to tie up the phone line with fifty six K modem. That sounded like that or whether you're a teenager who is mystified by everything. I just said either way. The nine hundred ninety s are weirdly important to how life works today and I've got the perfect guests for talking about that because they make an entire show about that every week on the unpopular opinions. Podcast network I am joined by two comedian slash podcasters. They are Adam. Todd Brown longtime crack person. You've heard him on the show many times and a new guest to this show chat wild they make a weekly podcast entitled the nineties sucked and also. I feel that title is a little tongue in cheek because you have to know and care about the nine hundred ninety s to to address. Why sucked right? You also have to like them and so the three of us are bringing together a range of experiences from that decade to explore how they are weirdly important to right. Now it's going to touch on culture politics the environment especially the first thing we're going to talk about and so much more so let's get into those nine thousand nine hundred ninety s things. Please sit back or push off a Brian Russell. Without them calling it. So you can make jumper to repeat the three peat still love you. I'm Jay and either way. Here's this episode of the craft podcast. With Adam Todd Brown and chat wild. I'll be back after we wrap up talk to you about it has been A little bit time since the nineteen nineties. I realized that as we were putting this together twenty years ago a long time ago I feel old and depending on which year you're talking about. It might have been thirty years ago. I feel real class of twenty twenty. Just graduated class of two thousand two in. That feels forever ago not to get down on the podcast but twenty twenty minus nine hundred ninety. That's thirty years. Don't be bringing your conspiracy theories on this podcast. Sorry for those that. Don't listen to Ataman and my podcast. The Nagy Suck Adam. Thanks for ninety suck. But I think you're right and you guys on your show you've gotten into so many ways that not only were the nineties. Something that sucked or maybe just okay. But I think the first thing we've got here is the CEO. Lcd which I feel like teens or whoever need some sat up on not just what CDs were but that like the mail was important right mailed today but in the nineties it was an event like oh the male has come a bunch of important messages. I would get off the school bus and be excited. Shut the mail and I was just a kid every time I would get one of those. Aol CDs my immediate. Thought was like score. I'M GONNA use this someday and I never once in my entire life. Put One of those CDs into a computer them all the time and we would use our fifty three hours. Oh here's a mind blowing concept for the kids back then. The Internet could be measured in time prior to the CD's there was a thing called floppy disks there were a half inch floppy disks which came after the five and a quarter inch and those originally you would only get ten or fifteen hours of free. Aol Yeah the first Internet service provider I had. You got fifteen hours a month and then got insanely expensive. If you went over your fifteen hours it's kind of like if you're younger maiden can relate to the early two thousands one text messages. Used to cost money. Yeah way you get you get fifty texts a month and then after that. It's it's ten cents a text. Can you imagine how much better the world would be if we all only spent fifteen hours on the Internet every month? Even every week would be a step in the right direction. That would be a revolution in this country for some people. Fifteen hours a day still might be cutting back. Yeah especially during cove. It is like remarkable especially during covid when everyone's just like online all the time like every websites. Traffic is up during this. It is remarkable to the Internet. Is something you would like ration out by time. It would take up the phone line for a lot of people you had to like. Do a very noisy modem to get on but then also there these. Aol CDs that it seems like they were kind of designed to get people onto the Internet at all like you guys talk about how the name America Online was like amazing branding because there was just this idea like at last. We must put Americans on the Internet at all. I'm America. I deserve to be online. Those those CDs were such a massive undertaking. I had like until we researched that episode. I Like I had some concept that they were around all the time and had to have gone somewhere and that someone had to be producing these things like. They weren't just happening out of thin air but I didn't realize the magnitude of the production that went into these and like they put these CDs in Omaha steaks like these CDs. Were everywhere the magazine. Not The actual thing. No they packaged these discs. They talk about. There was a really interesting core thread. They one of the things they talk about in this core thread which was with all of these. Aol executives from back when these discs were going out was one of their biggest challenges they wanted to put them in boxes of Omaha steaks. Which Omaha steak is like a mail order State Company? Which has always seemed weird to me. You can just go get steak and they had to figure out how to put these. I mean they didn't have to but once Omaha steaks said they wanted to partner with them. They had to like figure out. Are these even gonNA survive if we mail in those conditions and they did and they yeah they put him in everything. If you were at blockbuster where you would go rent movies like a fucking leander. Thal like you would get a free. Aol DISC with every movie. You rented was nuts. Apparently they manufactured more than one billion. Aol CDs and mailed them out and like the population of America. As far less than a billion I think we're around a third of a billion right now. Ebbe they sent out all of these CDs just trying to convert people into AOL Internet users that with with physical objects in my house alone. We must have had at least twenty CDs at one point. We getting the Free Our. And then cancelling our account and then spinning up a new account with a new name each time and that was something that was seemingly radically different for the time back. Then you wouldn't youth your name on the Internet. You come up with a screen name. You wouldn't make your screen name. I'm Alex Schmidt it was probably like clammy guys snoopy to seven. Who told you who told you? Guys snoopy to seven there was the difference between AOL and the Internet like a AOL Internet access but to remember there were AOL websites and real websites. Like Elza Program you launch and the Internet existed within it like if you went to WWe WWF DOT com at the time or the WWF. Aol website to different websites like the AOL when was like like an APP or something within. Aol's yeah they were trying to be their own brand of Internet. It's not a lot unlike what facebook is doing now. Like that's kind of facebook's thing is well let's take the entire Internet and consolidate it in one website. That fucking sucks and like. Aol didn't suck at the time. It was like very advanced for what it was but we eventually came to learn like. Oh we don't need you. Don't need a shell around this weakness get on the Internet. We don't need that. Aol flag with it but facebook. It seems like is trying to bring that back. If you look into their initiatives to like spread Internet access throughout the world. They're not great. I mean it's great that poor people have Internet access. It's great that they're getting it from facebook so yeah. Facebook is kind of trying to be the A. O. L. of twenty twenty with all the things we're looking at today at stuff that is from the nineties and somehow kind of never ended and one is the the physical waste of more than a billionaire. Lcd's and then another is the idea of like a tech company trying to be the entire Internet for people and like the entire way that the whole country uses it. Because you know it's lucrative a lot of money in that. Yeah there's even a lot of money in the CDs now if you can find him there are people out there who collect these things like a bunch of Damn Weirdos are there people still cashing in on these in terms of like just haven't paid for Internet in thirty years like I need to find another fifty hours. I'm not paying for this shit. I hope so there were some really cool ones though because they if you look into the the people who collect these like there's one that was I forget what it was released with. But it's like this really great painting of Magic Johnson in it's like one of the rarest. Aol disks and it just it looks like a piece of art. It's really neat. There's a spiderman one. That's really rare that people go after these discs were everywhere. They were basically advertising like it was just another way for a company to slip a little more advertising in and you got fifty hours of free Internet out of it. Yeah Americans Love Free Shit. Yeah they do. The best got to appoint some of them would have like Bilton free trial services for other like Encyclopedia Program. Remember before the Internet was that fast. You would buying encyclopedia like ten data and you would have it on your computer and like this one will be a d and then they're like. I want to look at frogs. What better opened up my CD drive and put in. Yeah I never understood the the hate for wikipedia. When wikipedia was first becoming a thing people would always complain about how anyone could edit wikipedia. And it's like Oh you'd prefer the system where like a room full crusty old white men would just edit this book that you would get in. That's the definitive source of information. Like no open that up to everybody. It's fine yeah especially like the world book days when you had like a set of ten encyclopedias. That cost like twenty trees to make like no. We compete spitting a better way to go. Yeah and I totally trust this dude from the University of Texas to be honest about Venezuela and world events these CDs. They did you guys found that. Aol had to spend thirty five dollars per customer with the direct mail CD strategy and then they tended to earn an average of three hundred fifty dollars per customer in like eventual Internet service. So this was this was a massively successful direct mail campaign and then also you guys found a story about AOL kind of taking over compact disc production. Aol took it over like worldwide for awhile. It's crazy for two solid weeks when AOL four point. Zero launched they needed so many discs to launch that that they took over all CD production worldwide for two weeks for two two weeks in it was either ninety seven ninety eight. There were no Selene Dion. Cd's backstreet boys CD's it was just all AOL. Discs could we elect nineteen ninety six to ninety seven to be president for like two weeks? They would know how to shutout and just make. Pp FOR TWO WEEKS AND WE BEAT GOLDEN. Not The worst idea. You can't tell me that. Twenty five years ago we shut an entire industry down to make one thing and now we can't figure that out today you will have no legal power. They were able to do that like they have no authority at all. They just organized yeah. It's it's insane to think about by that point. Cds were the way people listen to music at that point in history nineteen ninety seven ninety eight that is prime CD territory so to be able to take over that kind of production for two weeks. That is intense power. Cds were so popular. Tell you had people like Garth Brooks out doing the Beatles and sales records because just everybody was buying CDs of everything. They had no problem with it and he also found atoms. Some interesting stuff about like CD pricing beginning an interesting thing that companies manipulated because like CDs were the currency for everything. The five CD companies are five music. Companies were basically convicted of price-fixing between the years of nineteen ninety. Five and two thousand. It's a really complicated thing. Because on the one hand yes they did. Kind of. Put a chokehold on places like best buy selling. Cd'S FOR LIKE FIVE NINETY. Nine crazy prices like that and they. They did kind of limit their ability to do that. But they also everything. Those retailers were doing was gutting independent record stores and what the music industry did was at least intended to kind of help fix that problem. It didn't fix that problem. And most independent record stores went away. But it's it's a real gray area. Where on the one hand you can kind of see why they were convicted but on the other maybe they were trying to do a good thing probably not like. I doubt they're only motive was to help independent record stores but they were trying to at least yeah and with CDs Being Olive Music also all of computer gaming especially like I had tons of. Cd's with games on them and then then all sending a billion of two Americans. They're just this like massive environmental thing that we sort of have with us from the nineties still now we download so many things. It's it's a different cost because it servers but the thing with CDs as they are made of layered polycarbonate and aluminum and I don't totally understand that but I know it makes them hard to recycle so CDs just became a thing that filled up our landfills because also a lot of them tended to be made pretty cheaply so they warp easily scratch easily. And then you just have like disc of trash and he just throw it straight in the garbage. Yeah the problem is we were lied to about CDs when CDs came out. They were like. They're not gonNA get scratched like records and they'll last forever and it's like yeah they last forever if you never touched them and never put them in a CD player like CDs. Were kind of a scam like we were buying them under the the belief that this is going to be. Your Permanent Music Collection. And you're gonna own this stuff forever. No one has CDs anymore especially even the name compact disc I know. I know they're saying it's more compact than vinyl but I feel like even that name probably implied to people like. Oh we'll just be a little disc low buddy. That won't won't be any a hassle to America's landfills in the future but no they're full of probably literally billions of them interesting about the environmental thing to me though is even with CD's filling up landfills and whatnot. It's not that much better than streaming music like music files. Don't grow naturally out of the ground they are stored on things that are using energy. And when you really get down to it like we talked on cracked podcast about movie theaters. In how going to the movies. You would think like staying home in streaming. A movie is just significantly better. But it's just marginally better for the environment than going to a movie theater in CDs as bad as they were they're just marginally worse than streaming services. It's kind of like how people buy electric cars and they're they have clean energy but don't really count for what coming from a coal factory if your batteries are made of rare earth mineral whatever the fuck they are like. You're just an asshole. You're just an asshole for tending. Doing good thing. Another episode. You guys have done is about another way that the ninety s have not really ended yet. Which is that In the nineties there started to be websites like storm front dot org and that website is not related to the weather. It is related to white nationalism. And that's the thing that is a quite popular on the Internet to this very popular and the Internet was supposed to eliminate all that. Like if you can believe it. There was a point where the people who launched the Internet and the people who are responsible for making it like this commercially available thing. They had it in their adorable little liberal brains that well intentioned that once the world had access to all the information hate would just go away like once. Every white nationalist just read the right wikipedia article about how black people really are then. We would just all start getting along and own man. Were they so wrong? Yeah like it was just the exact opposite right away. People were like Oh my God. I have a platform to spread my hate. Finally Oh my God. There are other eight like me. Let's get together. Yeah it really had the opposite effect of what we thought it was going to do. Yeah because I I remember feeling like Oh with the Internet I can finally connect with my fellow fans of Star Trek the next generation and then like Oh. There are other people connecting with fans of other stuff at the same time. That was obviously what was going on. I mean it's almost debatable. As to whether that was better I feel like we would have been better off if the Internet stopped progressing at like message boards like when we still had to all go to our separate rooms to talk about whatever bullshit be it white nationalism or for me oasis likes your. You still had to go. You know whatever she separate Class A. I still had to go hide in this corner of the Internet to talk about Loving Oasis in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine and I feel like that was kind of better because what we did. Instead of keeping that is media became thing and then everyone's ideas and thoughts were all centralized in one place and we eventually realized that some of those thoughts don't really have value in a public space. Where like get off facebook. Go back to your little corners of the Internet. When like that whole process? Just kinda radicalize. Those people a little more because now like they feel like their ideas really are a threat maybe they are onto something and this is why the man shutting them down but they were just all still in their own message board from two thousand and three. We wouldn't even notice with that I think. Internet speeds got to fast like streaming. Shows is great but we have way too much access to way too much if you WANNA call it information in our figues every day and I think there's something to having to wait for a page to load and only being able to scroll and consume so much that causes you to slow down and you're able to cherry pick less than half to actually thoroughly consume what you're looking at. Yeah I don't know if I agree with that because it slower Internet would also limit your ability to research things you read like. That's kind of what you have to do. With news articles. These days is sort of dig into their sources and you know find where they're getting their information from and that's a whole lot harder if you have slow. Internet. I kind of feel like that's what's really behind all of this talk about negative health risks of five G. Internet and things I feel like we're just really as a country not in a rush to increase people's access to information like that is kind of how Republicans keep control in a lot of ways because if you when you get out into rural areas the access to Internet is severely limited so still have dialup. Yeah so like you can't go to a a glitzy CNN website. That's got all these flash videos and whatnot plan like it's never going to load but storm front at still. Looks like it was built in one thousand nine hundred ninety seven if it's even still online but like look at every conservative website. They're built to run on slow internet or go to space jam. Dot Com and look at the original promotional website for the movie space jam which still exists original form. Nineteen ninety if you're a little younger. That's what the fucking Internet looked like in the mid nineties midnights sites where like a collection of a couple really grainy. Gif images and I don't mean Jif where it's like an animated thing I mean like dot. Gif File format for a still a bitch. Were you just click on it and get to a couple more dot? Gif's it was crazy. It was all pretty useless and I think that's when the Internet was at its best useless now. It's far too useful for too many people. I don't know if we get like solve it by slowing down the Internet but I love the idea of the youtube specific white nationalism. Problem going away like it's way too easy to just load a video really fast on youtube when you were in a k. Hole of Apparently following these people. I haven't done it but like just the suggests that next video will be another You know racist. It's not good. It's a debate in this country as to whether we should have right from the outset kind of treated the Internet way. China does where they're like. Yeah you can use it but we're going to tell you how to use it. We didn't do that in this country. Pretty much immediately upon the Internet becoming a thing everyone was using. We pass this thing called the communications decency act that put something in place called section two thirty which is such a double edged sword because on the one hand it protects people who run websites from being prosecuted for the actions of their users but on the other hand it protects people who. I run websites from being prosecuted for the actions of their users. Like some of the like it opens up this area where people can be like. I don't know man that's just people on my website. I don't have anything to do with it in it allowed a lot of things. A lot of really unfortunate things to spread but now that they're sort of cracking down on it. It's like We've had this freedom this long. I don't think we're going to give it back now. I mean we will they. They won't allow us to not give it back. But it feels like section to thirty is being now especially with stuff like Sesto foster which Under the guise of stopping sex trafficking on websites like backpage it also kind of chip away at section two thirty in that what they were basically saying was. If you're not doing enough to stop sex trafficking on your website you can go to prison to which sounds reasonable but it's only reasonable until it gets applied to something else like free speech like. I don't as as much of a problem as youtube is. I don't necessarily think the people who created youtube should be criminally prosecuted for white nationalist videos being on their website. Like that is. That's a slippery slope like it would feel good to us on the left at first then. That's the kind of thing that can come for you next very easily. And also how do you at that scale volume how you manage to thoroughly check everything before it goes out and then who gets to decide? It's just such a massive unrealistic thing to take on. They tried to develop a snoop some of that stuff out. But it's just man and I think people don't know that like that a attempt to foster and like so many other things people are doing to try to like nibble away at how the Internet works now like that entire foundation is from this one line nineteen ninety-six like the nineties created the very open Internet where no. Us Internet company can be prosecuted for the actions of its users. Like we're still living in that world designed by Nineteen ninety-six people and one unintended consequences in the review process but this has been covered pretty well by a number of news outlets at facebook. The kind of low paid review employees at facebook. They outsource to a third party and a lot of those people who having PTSD or or a lot of mental health issues or or even suicidal. Because if it's your job to sit through and see the worst of the worst on the Internet for even a couple of weeks that's going to fuck you up permanently. Yeah yeah it would be kind of like your job is to be an AI program like you are a living breathing artificial intelligence program in the way those things work is they get fed all the information. That's why every time we put an AI. On twitter it turns racist in like thirty five minutes. Because you give it enough information and it's going to be like. Oh yeah this is what the Internet's like okay. Fuck Jews and it's like slowdown robot and like those people are seeing that like they are the machines that shit is being fed to and they're seeing like child abuse fucking murders like so many crazy things when you're trying to police the Internet in that way and it's debatable about which of those two approaches is healthier like do you just let it spread and kind of hope that the people who are into that kind of thing just go to their own corner the internet or you police and subject a lot of living people to the absolute worst things. Humanity has to offer for eight hours a day forty hours a week and that openness in terms of content of the lack of responsibility for the companies like at among other things starting in the nineties. It seems like it supported. These white nationalist websites like why why were white nationalists so fast to get on the Internet in that decade? What what like Lead them to make that leap and build their space. Jam Dot Com but for for evil. They're tech savvy as fuck. Yeah that's the thing. It was an oversight on the part of the people who created the in that they didn't take into account that historically speaking fascists are really quick to adopt new technology because anything they can use to spread their message more. They're going to use it in the minute. The Internet online. The first thing white nationalist did was go. How can we use this to spread our message and because the Internet was such a free wheel in place when it went online there was literally nothing we can do about it. This past week had a guest on her. Name's Nicole Hammer. And she's a historian who does a lot of stuff on just conservative media especially in the twentieth century and they were like right away on mass radio and TV from there like they were like. Oh as soon as that is the thing that super useful. We're going to start broadcasting. They're like as much as we can. Because that's what they do. Yeah that's what I guess. Maybe the problem with white nationalism on the Internet today is that the Internet is still the cutting edge right like just as soon as there's new APPS and new services and new ways we can use it they will be there and then when there's not maybe that's when they leave. I don't know they have certainly taken to social media. That's for sure. Yeah how about that? They love and another nineties thing. That is oddly. Still with us a guys done episodes on the Waco standoff and the Ruby Ridge standoff which those are both have both ended as events. But that's a behavior that still going on in the world. Those events happened when the Internet was sort of in its infancy in terms of the Internet. We know now and at pre space jam right. When when Jordan was spreading. White nationalist stuff with Bugs Bunny on. This is that what happened in that. I don't remember but yeah. Why do you think he played for? The white SOx explains that mustache the hanes commercial. That's for sure all right. I'm turning off the show if the white SOX ARE GONNA denigrated as I'm just saying that's the baseball team to and for dates. Real Quick Ruby Ridge was August and nine hundred ninety. Two in the northern tip of Idaho and then Waco was February through April of nineteen ninety three so within less than a year. We have these two events taking over like the whole country's attention right and that's the same general time. When white nationalist started really picking up on using the Internet and using it to spread their message and at the exact same time that's happening Ruby Ridge and Waco happens what people I don't think understand about especially Ruby Ridge and Waco both is those groups part of their core beliefs whether they were white. Nationalists are not branch Davidians. Were Not White Nationalist Randy. Weaver who was the subject of the Ruby Ridge? Standoff was definitely sympathetic to the area nation but he wasn't a member of the area nation and the thing about all of those groups whether they're white nationalist groups are not one of their core beliefs. Is that all right. Well here's how the end times are going to start. We're going to collect a bunch guns and then the government's GonNa come try and take those guns and when that happens the end times have started so at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Both what we essentially did was give white nationalist a rallying point where they could go see. Everything we've said was going to happen just happened. And in both cases we very much could have handled it in a way that didn't result in that and that's why if you look into Ruby Ridge and Waco both lake the media Kinda sold. It is one thing but they're both to some degree. Government atrocities that are both instances of the government way overstepping their bounds in the enforcement of laws and what Waco and Ruby Ridge? Did it gave all those right wing types who are online early something to talk about and something to get in message boards and rally around and it. Kinda directly resulted in the Oklahoma City bombing which happened. I believe on the anniversary of Waco and like Timothy McVeigh when he was interviewed after his arrest he point to Waco as kind of the inspiration for the Oklahoma City bombing. You can't really unring that bell. But I would be interested to see how different the world would be right now if we handled Waco and Ruby Ridge differently because it really did kick off a lot of bad things in this country because also I think I knew of Waco as being cult related. It's the branch Davidians and David Koresh under siege from the government and then Ruby Ridge is like one family besieged by the government. But I think people forget how much of a gun element. There is les especially in the Obama Years. We would laugh at like. Oh these gun owners think Obama is coming for their guns and he wasn't but also like there was a event where the government came for guns in the nineties twice. And that's that's where they got this crazy idea like there's there's specific situation. Yeah and if you look into the branch Davidians they did indeed have a lot of guns and sold allowed guns but also they were in Texas. Everybody had a lot of guns. Everybody was selling guns and they sold their guns legally like when I say legally. It's not in the way. I would prefer guns be sold in this country but laws are laws and they weren't actually breaking any laws. Allow the gun stuff. That prompted us to crack down on Waco is based on like someone reported hearing gunshots. That sounded like automatic weapons. So we were like okay. We better Send all of the FBI to that building and it to the ground. There's a Waco TV series right now. That gets a lot of criticism for being very sympathetic to the branch Davidians and that's valid criticism in a lot of cases but the way they portray the government's response to Waco. I think is pretty accurate and if not accurate. It's the way it needs to be told because it was. How do you justify? Oh well we need to protect these kids. That are being abused. Inside this compound How about we fired. Tear gas that was banned under the Geneva Convention into the room and see if that helps. It's like you're not protecting kids when you do that. Those kids were still in the building. It was obviously something else that brought us their kids crying already. We need that. Tear gas into the mix. I feel like when I think about conspiracy theories or when we talk about on this show. There's often a thing where there just aren't that many conspiracy theories like there's a couple of them and they get repeated pretty heavily and one of them. Is this like especially nineties thing of like? Oh we need to assemble a Colt and hold out against the government and completely crazy and then also you see even in much more recent times like in the twenty tens with that Bundy family where like they held on the ranch in Nevada and they seized a federal preserve in Oregon. The members of it will have links about it. The bundy's explicitly cited Waco and Ruby Ridge as like see. You still can't trust the government like you need to have your guns and the Bundy's are more about like sovereign citizen. No one should pay taxes kind of thing but it's the same thing of like you simply can't trust the government because the siege in Waco killed dozens of people and and other things like that. Don't trust the government. Trust me crazy person holding guns and taking parts of Oregon hot rage. Yeah that's a good fucking argument. The BUNDY's are weird. I mean not weird but they're an interesting case because it takes us right back to the same question. What you do about people like this sleigh. We've seen how it ends when you go in with guns blazing like not great. But you also can't do nothing which seems like is exactly what we're doing now when it comes to people like the Bundy's yeah because because if people don't know like the Ruby Ridge standoff ended in two members of the family that weaver family and also their dog being killed and also one. Us Marshal was killed in the standoff. And then the Waco siege ends in eighty two branch. Davidians including twenty five children being killed four. Atf agents are killed and sixteen wounded and like with the Bundys when they tried to hold out on their ranch in two thousand fourteen to not pay grazing fees and tried to take over and Oregon Wildlife Refuge in two thousand sixteen because they said the Constitution doesn't let the government have land like that didn't have those body counts like maybe feel crazy saying it. Maybe we learned something. Maybe we like learned a lesson and At minimum decreased the murder. That's pretty good. You would hope like you mentioned Ruby Ridge in that. Two of his family members died. It's not just that. They shot his wife in the face while she was holding their baby Like that is so aggressive. I would argue not to go out on a limb by myself. A yeah they didn't even know it happened at first because they had a shoot on sight order for Randy Weaver and when they saw randy weaver they shot and they fucking missed and hit his wife in the face and everyone ran back inside when that happened so at one point like five days later the FBI or the ATF. Goes to negotiate with him and they're like hey randy let us talk to your wife and the way. Randy Weaver took that was the government is taunting me. Because they know they killed my wife and actually just that we didn't know that we shot his wife in the face which yeah there were some procedural errors at Waco and Ruby Ridge and I hope we have learned from him like it doesn't in saying that I hope people at home doesn't mean you agree with what those people were doing or their ideas or the things they were pushing you got separate that out sometimes like sometimes the government does bad things bad people and it's still not good. Yeah and could have been done better right while so we've got a few more things here and one of them is another way the one thousand nine hundred and not ended which is Joe Biden who is the presumptive Democratic nominee for president. You guys did a whole episode about the one thousand nine hundred four crime bill that he was so involved in that when Biden ran for president in two thousand eight his website called at the Biden. Crime Bill that he was very very proud of this bill and now today it has had some effects. Yeah it was directly responsible for minorities being incarcerated at a disproportionately higher rate than white people in the nineties. And it's I don't want to go from trump to someone like biden with this kind of law and order background. It wasn't just that Joe Biden past that crime bill. He is responsible for the law that put a higher sentence on crack possession. Convictions as opposed to powder cocaine which you need powder cocaine to make crack but for some reason Joe Biden. Thought it would be a great idea. If you're arrested with crack you may get a life sentence and if you get arrested with powder well then maybe get like four or five years and it's like how would you not have the foresight to see how that's going to play out Even separate from the ramifications of it which were horrible. I just don't trust him to make good decisions like he can spend that crime bill all he wants. It was possibly the biggest atrocity. This government pulled off in the nineties way bigger than Ruby Ridge or WACO and the things it led to. We aren't going to recover from. It's not just that we're still suffering from it. There are there are communities. That are never going to recover from this list families and it's just so inexcusable to me but what better platform than to say you created a bill that disproportionately puts people of Color in jail over whites then to win over some of the trump swing voters that are looking for another option. Yeah I mean I know you're joking but yeah I'm eighty percent joking twenty percent like if you framed it that way to some people that are like trump full of Shit. He did build the wall. Oh this guy puts black people in jail. Yeah he's pretty white and old and I guess I could vote for him. Maybe that speaks to by being a symptom of a wider thing where it's still the nineteen nineties and politics and a lot of ways and Obama distracted us from this by being newer and more progressive than that. But like if you look at all of the other democratic nominees around that obviously Gore was coming out of the nineties allowed but then carry and Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. It's all just people who were basically like very nineteen nineties or right after that senators and and have a perspective there where there's a lot of like language where people are like. Obviously this should be the nominee because the win over Clinton Democrats. Which is the most ninety thing you can do? Yeah they're they're establishment Democrats. They've been in power for decades and things have always been one way and even if they're not trump which automatically makes you a little more progressive. It also doesn't mean every. Democrat like wants to pay for your Medicare for all or wants to get rid of your student loan debt. They are rich Democrats also and they do want to hang on to their money. They just WanNa do it in a way. That doesn't make him look bad. And those are the people that need to be out of office also when you look at this crime bill. What worries me about Biden? As it pertains to the crime bill and the direction the country is going if he wins a lot of people are going to be very unhappy and it could very well lead to a little bit of unrest in this country. Not just from right wing types. Who are angry. That trump is out of office but also a lot of people on the left who saw this election as an opportunity to go in a more progressive direction in. What we got was Fuckin- Joe Biden. If there is some level of unrest in this country Biden caters to a demographic. That would be fine with seeing white nationalist and Socialist. Both getting fucking destroyed to restore the peace like. That's a centrist. That's a person who hears socialism in goes. Oh no that's like. Isn't that what the Nazis did? And it's like no not really like very very different things just a similar word and not. Everyone's a smart is us and a lot of people aren't able to think critically enough beyond. Oh well I know socialism's bad and I know white. Nationalism is bad how about we just cut out both of those things and Joe Biden is absolutely the president. Who would do that like he has that law and order background? Where if there's unrest in this country you don't have to just think about how he's GonNa treat white nationalists if it happens. Think about how he's going to treat people on the left if it happens also not going to be good for anyone especially if we're basing it off his past when it comes to passing bills to fight crime. He's not good at it. A silver lining here is that if fighting does win he is likely to be a one term president and I believe out see pulled up some research that backs that up. Where he's he said. I don't have it in me for two terms. It's an interesting thing. Wear it seems like however this particular election goes. I'm optimistic that it's sort of the last election that can be dominated by nine thousand nine hundred politicians just because of how the passage of time works nothing else but like theoretically on Inauguration Day of two thousand twenty five trump will be seventy eight point five years old even if he wants to do a third term. Where GROVER CLEVELAND? Or something and then Biden will be eighty three in two thousand thousand five. And there's a rumor from politico that Biden has told staff and insider people that he doesn't want around a second time. They'll just be too old so either way. This twenty twenty one is kind of like we pick one of these guys and then maybe we do future stuff and like progressive stuff and try something new which is why his vice presidential pick so important too because if he wins they beat the likely successor nominee. Yeah and he also when he talked about being a transition candidate. Part of that quote was that he's here to usher in the mayor. Pete's of the world and it's like cool transition from establishment Democrat too young establishment Democrat. You know when I think progressive and new. I think don't know about you guys but that's exactly in again. It's a thing that comes down to people. Being able to think a little more critical than I think a lot of people are which when it comes to Mayor Pete a Lotta people will just see. Oh he's young and he's gay. That sounds progressive to me. Let's go in that direction and it's like don't forget it was CIA. Also I mean it's not proven but Mayor Pete is fucking sin. He's also some pence country. Isn't it in the end? Yeah Mayor of South Bend which ever been to South Bend homes around Notre Dame are cheap for a reason mayor. Pitas vary of a piece with Joe Biden. Worry like in a sense. He is progressive. Like I feel like Biden is very progressive. Given that he if he'd never been vice president would probably be our oldest and longest serving. Senator like for being the most ancient senator. He's a pretty progressive. Guy Biden won his first Senate race in nineteen seventy two when he was twenty nine years old and you have to be thirty to be in the Senate but he would like hit thirty. By the time they'd swear amend so he got to run and do it and then was in the Senate just all the way until then like not only is he establishment and like his kind of set of policies and worldview. But also he's just like being in the establishment along time just in terms like hours logged. You know so it's strange. It seems like a hard guy to pick for like a radical change to address as he said like the massive problems we have right now. It's interesting yeah I just don't I don't think he's the guy to do it like I don't see anything. There's nothing progressive about the way. Joe Biden sniffs. Young girls hair like this the ways. Heat like in like when Stu- like the groping stuff came up like com- completely separate from the rape allegations but like you would hear a lot of people be like okay. Well he's just an old man who doesn't understand Howard deal with women these days and it's like Yep that's the problem that is exactly the problem pull up. Any of the multiple videos of Joe Biden actually getting challenged on one of his platforms or ideas by a young person. It ends the exact same way every time which is him saying. You should probably vote for trump and it's like you know what you shouldn't run against trump if that's going to be your fucking answer like I'm sorry. We are not at the point in history where not trump is good enough like we need more than that or this country's GonNa Explode. He was VP for eight years so in a way electing him feels like kind of a collective consciousness attempt of hanging reset on a game going back three levels go back to pre trump. And that's not really moving forward but Biden carries on and as we said this is probably his last election coming up. We'll see what happens. We also before we go. We've got a couple other things here. In one of them is the idea that comedy turned into the news specifically in the nineties like a lot of the coverage of Biden and trump. And everything we're about to see in the election is going to be from comedy sources. I guess maybe including this podcast but it was a phenomenon that the came like an institution specifically in the nineties in a way that I don't think everybody is aware of the premiere of politically correct in the early nineties and then it went mainstream on. Abc BEFORE BILL. Maher eventually got fired for nine. Eleven joke announced on. Hbo The original Daily Show and ninety six or ninety seven. And then Jon Stewart took over in the late. Nineties started having news host hosting White House Correspondents Dinner. And you start seeing these comedic voices on panels on the cable news channels and I think why started to get blurred. I'm guilty of this as well like I back then and even now to extend get some of my political news from these comedy shows yes rather than news itself but also some of these comedy shows like the daily show or John Oliver seemingly do a better job of deep diving and accepting things than a majority of the news programs. I feel like this was necessary in the ninety s because there was a lot happening that needed to be talked about and exposed. I just want I feel like it's kind of a lazy way to get news and also I don't know that the things George Bush was doing in the two thousands were necessarily comedy like there comes a point where you have to stop laughing about the stupid things. Someone says and get very serious about the things that person is doing and George Bush was an example of that like we played him up as the sort clown in the two thousands especially on shows like the daily show and like he was a war criminal he committed war crimes and we just kind of laughed our way through it all and I feel like what a lot of these shows did was just kind of make us feel better about what was happening as opposed to informing us in some more profound way than just watching the news would have and mainly trump is just a more drastic version of Bush on the pendulum swinging covered between. Can you believe what this idiot said? This idiot looked at the sun during an eclipse. You know where he he has toilet paper shoe or can't fucking close an umbrella but also just doing insanely damaging things dismantling our democracy and our social political norms. Yeah it becomes a matter of yeah. They're criticizing trump and they're definitely on the right side in that way but it's sometimes more a matter of the things they're not talking about the way you see trump covered especially when it comes to comedy. Now it's not in any critical sort of way you're not GONNA learn anything new about trump by watching any of these comedy news shows. You're going to see trump's wacky as moments played up for comedic value and I'm sorry this is not the time like this is not the time for that like everyone should be gravely concerned every time they talk about trump and the coverage is kind of like a magician. Watch the BUSY HAND. And no one seeing the had the other hand that's doing the actual trick but he says. Oh maybe we'll buy greenland and everyone talks about that instead of the nine other. Actually bad things that are happening. It's a thing that extends beyond comedy news now like even with the regular news. I said this on a cracked podcast before too but like when all of the Russia investigation stuff was first coming out if there is a day where the media report up on that story. If you looked around in the news there was probably something else crazy happening that we maybe should have also been talking about. Is it something with how the the comedy shows tend to cover stuff too? 'cause like I feel like Jon Stewart is known to people as a landmark of this stuff but bill mayer was before him and it's it's almost a format where like on a news. Show you especially before these guys kind of had to talk about all this stuff and just keep talking about it until you've explained it and on Bill Maher's show was like at last. A comedian and his friends are here to do just a discussion. And there'll be some bits and like like the endpoint can be figuring it out or the point can be bits and who knows what will get to. It's it's just kind of a loser. Approach I think it gets bored when you. It's not just comedian friends. You're inter mixing that with having presidential candidates on your show and you know every week now Bill Maher has a senator or somebody from the CDC or or some high profile person. And then you see that person on CNN or Fox do I think CNN box. Start to take little pieces from the daily show or bill. Marin tried to become more entertaining parading rather than be straight objective news. I will say that I think bill. Maher is probably the best format for this because at least it's a discussion and it's not just one viewpoint which gets to be very controversial from time to time. That's why there's always scandals about things. Bill Maher said or something. One of his guests said on a show. Because it's a little more freewheeling of an environment as opposed to something that's just tightly scripted like the daily show plus. It's live so a lot of times accidents happen. People faith things that they can't edit out or backtrack that overall mindset like you said Chat. The bill Maher show politically incorrect starts. Ninety three John Stewart takes the daily show ninety nine and then at the same time In one thousand nine thousand nine Brian Williams the NBC anchor is doing skits at the White House correspondent dinner and the following decade. He hosts SNL even though he thought before that it would mess up all his credibility. Yeah that's what's GonNa mess up his credibility and then later invent stories about Iraq but it seems like it is really that first decade of news people feeling like they need to be funny and comedy people feeling like they need to be the news and then eventually it just becomes everyone talking and and that's harder to person it's harder to track like what's important and who's right and everything else I mean if the correspondents' dinners literally had Obama to ten minutes of standup. Obviously other people are writing it for him. I remember watching a couple of of being impressed. At how fucking good be one. But that's not the president. You shouldn't have to put any thought or worry into white. Well I got to perform for the correspondence right as we kind of. Wrap things up like that. That's just a few of many elements of the nineties that are still with us but especially are the nineties so prominent with us because so many people either grew up in them or were young people than and are now at like that in their fifties or sixties authority figure age. You know like it. It seems like that decades GonNa stay dominant for a while just in our culture. Well it's such a transitional decade. It's the only decade that we have pre and post Internet and really a large extent pre and post widely available home computers. I feel like I can pinpoint exactly why the nineties seemed so chill and why they actually suck and it comes down to one basic thing. We didn't have an enemy in the nineties. The Cold War was over so we couldn't spend our military dollars on fighting communism. Boris Yeltsin was still in charge in Russia and under Yeltsin they like became a more open and transparent society for Awhile and like it felt chill because we didn't have that lake specter of the ever present threat of death hanging over us. I'm old enough to have grown up in the eighties and I remember. There is a while they're like eighty four eighty five where all the news was. Just we are going to die in a nuclear war soon. You don't even know we are all go. Get Your fucking basement right now. And then the nineties hit in my school converted our bomb shelter to in arcade room and like we weren't fighting Russia anymore and it was just like Oh man isn't piece great and meanwhile the government was like fuck peace. We need to fight someone soon and I feel like. We spent the nineties looking for somewhere to direct our military aggression and that's why it simultaneously seemed chill and was also one of the worst decades in American history. As the things we did to Suss out an enemy to fight in the two thousands were brutal because the nineties were full of like military interventions. Like the first Gulf War and we were in Bosnia and we were in Kosovo and and Somalia was a thing like they were. There were all kinds of conflicts but none of them were the the twenty year warriors that like filled the past two decades. Yeah so we also cared about him a little less and you know paid less attention to them and I think a lot of those wars were US going aright. Who ARE WE GONNA FIGHT NEXT? We gotTA figure this out. We have all these tanks. They aren't going to drive themselves. Because that's how we make money in this country who makes so much money off the military and we were just floundering for a way to spend it in the nineties and a lot of people got hurt in the process. Yeah well at least this decades great all right can't complain about the twenty twenties so nice. I. I don't know if you guys been watching the news but things are actually not going that well right. Now we're in the middle of a worldwide pandemic chat always coveted some kind of thing to spoil him vibe. Geez folks. That is the episode for this week. My thanks to Adam Todd Brown and chat wild for broadcasting about the nineteen nineties in a twenty twenty fashion. Wow decades crazy and then our footnotes who will find all of the sources about that crazy decade the nineteen ninety that we drew on today in particular a vice article. That has the weird. Aol CDs. That were oddly. Collectible and and promoting other products like Spiderman and Omaha steaks also be nineteen ninety-four crime. Bill we talked about the early early Internet. A rise of extremism we talked about the one section of the Nineteen ninety-six Communications Act that outlined of how the Internet works today. And so much more. And of course you will find the nineties sucked which is a show on the unpopular opinion podcast network hosted by my guess Adam. Todd Brown wild. It's great and I highly recommend it. Check it out. Also if you recognize jets voice from my podcast miniseries one way to make an Emoji. That is because he is the comedian from Greater Buffalo New York who contributed to that you can hear chat there as well and beyond that our theme Music is Chicago Falcon by the Budo spend. This episode was engineered by me and Durham North Carolina and by Adam Todd Brown and Chat Wild and separate southern California locations than it was edited by Chris. Sousa in a whole nother location. Because we're being socially distant. It's the thing to do if you love this episode. That's great please. Leave us a positive five star review on the platform of your choice in particular Apple podcasts. Because that means the algorithms on podcast platforms will help people that the show is out there and then. I think that's a good thing. This week's five star review. We're featuring as an apple user called Super Passion One. Oh one which is. Maybe my favorite like. That's a very. All Chat SORTA screen named Super Passion. One Oh one way into it and they say quote relief for my brain. I am not intelligent enough to convey all these thoughts myself every time. A listener podcast. I feel like it's scratching an etch. I couldn't reach and quote which is an incredibly Nice thing to say Super Passion. Thank you so much and then counterfactual for you people. Let's say you hated this show. Well then let me know about it on social media. That's right social media a thing that the nineteen ninety s pretty much lax. We had A. We had a past episode with Gretchen McCulloch. Who's an Internet linguist? Our we talked about generations of the Internet and something that came up is that there were sort of used net forums and message boards for people before social media so that was social right getting to talk about evil things or star trek or oasis. Like we said on the show you know that was the thing that here in twenty twenty when we have so many more things. My twitter account is at Alex Committee. My instagram is Alex midst to degrom. And I'm on the wider Internet at my website Alex Schmidt Dot Com and. I'm here to say we will be back next week with more cracks podcasts. So how about that talk to you then?

Joe Biden Aol facebook Waco Ruby Ridge America Online president youtube America Obama CNN Randy Weaver Brian Russell Davidians Cd trump
Part Six: The Perfect Soldier

Behind the Bastards

38:03 min | 1 year ago

Part Six: The Perfect Soldier

"Ooh alexa good morning. Good morning and allow me to welcome writer actor and comedian chelsea handler alexa. I'm just checking in with your morning. Meditation meditation tried this one. I am a channel for loving peaceful energy. Okay i am a channel for loving peaceful energy. I want to hear more of what chelsea handler and alexa accelerate to just ask him. Just say alexa good morning and don't forget to check out chelsea handler's podcast life will be the death of me on iheartradio words being insulted by sophie. My me i'm robert. Evans hosted behind the bastards sophie's angry because i fucked up and tried to start the episode before we were ready to know what's up or down. What's up or down. I can't stop thinking about this period case jason none of us. Can i make about cutting sweating damocles but instead of <hes> being a sword held held up by a single string or whatever the hell. The sort of damocles was if the case of perrier that i'm just going to throw for no good reason. That's the only reason the best winfrey says he's been saying good reason. No it's not and it's a problem that i have and like with a drug the problem the only way to really get over it is to do the most dangerous version of it. You can possibly do advice. There are other ways. I would look that up or talk to professionalize alive where you decide to throw that period. I think i have to be a hotline. Episode comes to throwing things in this room. There's no professional more experience than me. That is true <hes> well. I accept that <hes>. I love profession. I convinced you should throw it first. Let's start chapter six the perfect perfect soldier the nineteen eighty-eight seditious conspiracy trial held important lessons for the chief minds behind the white supremacist movement when they leaned into their patriotism their love love of america that was white and christian but america nonetheless they could draw significant sympathy from fellow white men and women swastikas in klan robes were much less useful than tearful stories stories of hippie protesters spitting on flags the nine thousand nine hundred saw continuous growth of both the survivalist and the american militia movement. Neither of these things was inherently white supremacist the beam minutes colleagues have been remarkably successful seating their propaganda into gun shows and conventions as a result. The early nineties brought them a whole crop of fellow travelers men and women who did not identify n._f._l. Nazis and had never held klan membership but who were also quite capable of reading the turner diaries and identifying with its message randy. Weaver is a perfect example of this new sort of recruit. He was a former green beret patriot who loved his country and working with his hands. He and his wife vicky. We're christian. Conservatives fell in love with the first generation of evangelical cool tv preachers men like jerry falwell. They also read a book called the late great planet earth by how lindsey which focussed around using the bible to predict the near future lindsay's book convinced randy and vicki that gog anti christian empire from the book of ezekiel with soviet union god i did say god yeah they became came more and more drawn into conspiracy theories and convinced themselves that a great and fiery apocalypse was intimate imminent nicole next from american experience by p._b._s. Concerned citizens they set out to spread the word they were able to find a church that approach these matters with what they felt was the appropriate level of seriousness so they held their own bible studies with like minded friends and neighbors. This sparked the attention of a local reporter who came to do a story on them. The weavers walter learned did not appreciate the results. They felt betrayed but they had never been more sharing their beliefs. A great conflagration was coming and they felt increasingly unsafe in iowa vicky started having visions in the bathtub. God was speaking to her and god was telling her to go west defined for her family mountaintop. They would be safe. Their tabor's moved to a place that would later come to be called ruby ridge in idaho not far from richard butler's area nations compound randy weaver began to visit the compound attending several events and making a few friends among the neo nazis. The exact nature of what he believed precisely is unclear and heavily debated it seems that he identified with some aspects of christian identity theology and it's safe to say he was racist by normal people standards but it's also fair to say that randy weaver was not really a nazi or even in an ideological white supremacist. He hung around area nations because he lived in the middle of nowhere. They were the only people to hang with and just didn't care about their racism. <hes> okay yeah. He was not the kind of man who joined group like the order but he would come to play an important role in the next step of the white supremacist movement hang out with don't hang out with now like you're like. You're like okay well. I know he's evil but he's kinda cool on this aspect. I'll be buds with this person else. That's how that's how you nazi friends yup now the f._b._i. Wound up wiretapping several of the fascists that randy weaver befriended was was quite immediately obvious to them that mr we had no plans to overthrow the government spark race war or do anything more subversive than live off the land with family and picnic with not these from time to time in fact when other people in these wiretap conversations which suggests committing crimes randy would usually say something like we don't really go in for that stuff yeah yeah. It's a better response for lynchings than sure not a great response. We'll the fed's. New randy wasn't really dangerous. They saw him as the perfect guy to approaches approaches an informant. He wasn't a true believer and he was very poor. If they could entrap him into committing a crime they could scare him with prison time until the agreed to wear a wire and help them catch some of the big fish in the area offer money like you just offer him start like that. He's not a true believer and he's poor okay so like for money to help you do it. Just sucks an undercover agent. Approached randy and offered offered him good money to illegally saw off a couple of shotguns. Now randy was not a believer in the legitimacy of american gun control regulations and he needed the cash so we happily acquiesced and was subsequently busted for it. The feds made their offer in random refused them. He was arrested on federal firearms charges and taken to jail randy made bail though and he fled back to ruby ridge in hold up with his family and a whole bunch of guns hope that the rallies would not follow they did but the attempted arrest did not go well a u._s. Marshal was shot dead by the weaver clan. The authorities responded with a blizzard of indiscriminate gunfire which killed randy's fourteen year old son the family dog and his unarmed wife vicky. They were trapped in the cabin with your corpse for like days. It was horrible awful yeah. It's a terrible story. A standoff ensued law came in with helicopters armored vehicles and the kind of militarized police that look familiar to let's now but we're new and terrifying back in nineteen ninety-two the media descended on ruby ridge to and the assault on the weaver family was spread verily throughout the far right the weavers with we're the perfect poster family to illustrate government overreach foot of black helicopters hovering over ruby ridge in saint like pictures of vicki weaver were almost tailor-made to sell the idea that the new world order order was coming for decent white christian gun owning americans and that one out on the platter yep lui-meme and his fellow fascists knew a great opportunity community when one came a knockin later in one thousand nine hundred while ruby ridge was still in the news the leading minds of the white supremacist movement gathered in estes park colorado for a summit on how precisely they can use this tragedy to their advantage. The summit was convened by pete peters. A christian identity preacher from colorado and the head of a sizeable christian identity church the laporte church of christ. Here's how leonard susskind summarizes the proceedings and blood and politics for two and a half days they met in committee deliberated in plenary sessions and engaged in the kind of one on one conversations known in the parlance harland's business professionals as networking the made decisions in the name of jesus christ in jawa sing onward christian soldiers and otherwise conduct themselves in a manner of quite resolve appropriate for their surroundings an y._m._c._a. Facility abutting the park no guns were waved and even the most heated rhetoric seemed to have the blood drained out of it. Estes park signified a radical shift in the tactics of the the white power movement like the nineteen eighty-three area nations congress. We mostly know it was disgusted estes park because of the things that happened after it the nazis started reaching out to more moderate it americans louis beam published an article in his new magazine ironically named the seditionists because he'd gotten been declared innocent of seditious he called for leaderless resistance resistance in the wake of ruby ridge big star one militia with members in texas oklahoma and new mexico carried out grenade launcher and mortar training exercises in rural texas. The montana militia published a guidebook book on how to engage in domestic terrorism in nineteen ninety-three law enforcement across the nation found thirteen explosives caches meant to be used in taxes varied as a national afro american museum in in ohio in a black church in los angeles. None of this made the news in a big way because of something happen in mid nineteen ninety-three the siege of the branch davidian compound in waco texas axis the branch davidians were not christian identity sect and their leader david koresh was not affiliated with the white supremacist movement but the of their compound so soon after ruby ridge was easy louis beam and his comrades to propagandize around now. This is not an audio book about the waco disaster and i won't even try to cover what happened there in detail. What's important for our purposes is is the end result on february twenty eighth nineteen ninety-three a._t._f. Agents attempted to serve a search warrant about sexual abuse illegal weapons charges people inside the compound opened fire four agents at five branch davidians were killed in the situation devolved into a bloody siege on april nineteenth the f._b._i. Who take control of the situation launched an assault on the compound in in the ensuing melee. Several fires broke out and quickly swept through the structures by the time the smoke had cleared and it was all over fifty three adults in twenty. Three children were dead now many yet. It was a fuck load of people yeah. The whole tragedy was arguably a cluster fuck on behalf of the federal government which of course helped groups like the fashioning fashioned people started after park like reaching out to militias and stuff and again trying to like propagandizing directly delicious being like instead of just sending <music> out like nazi propaganda to guys who aren't going to by the nazis would if we focus on like pictures of this dead woman debt by the government and try to scare them that way and then and you know if they if they're interested in that maybe they'll gradually start reading some of our other any kind of a harris propaganda so kirk lyons a close friend of louis beam in a white white supremacists militia leader himself sedan issue of his group's fundraising newsletter that featured a photo of a smiling fourteen year old girl who died in the waco siege the girl was of course white and her photo was caption caption why we fight <hes> there were dozens hundreds and eventually thousands of other similar pieces of propaganda gradually day by day and month by month explicitly fascist white supremacist groups began to wrap their ideological clause around the militia movement and suck in evermore patriots british journalist jon ronson was one of the few reporters who spent a great deal of time embedded with the fringe right during this period actually visited the ruins of the branch davidian compound several years after the siege with randy weaver in toll. They wound up having a conversation several members of the michigan militia who they're taking part in a vigil for the people who died at waco. One of these people told him we're here to ask for these people's forgiveness for sitting around on our butts and watching watching it on t._v. What happened at ruby. Ridge and waco will never happen again under any circumstances if it does there will be immediate. Retaliation armed resistance from the michigan militia now the michigan militia in this time had about twelve thousand members which was a significant surge for wake of ruby ridge and waco one of those members. I was a young desert storm. Veteran named tim mcveigh here we go timothy mcveigh was born. Oh wait. It's time for an ad plug. Isn't it sovi timothy. Mcveigh really are great at this. Thank you thank you thank you. You know there's nothing that goes with tim mcveigh like well fertilizer bomb but other than a fertilizer no sophie you're saying that's not a good ad plug. There are a lot of things better than mcvay and those things. Are you know what does less damage the tim mcveigh the products and services advertised on this show. We pick one of these soviets. No one's perfect. Let's rolled addict bills and we're back at the ron. Burgundy podcasts season do baby carolina. Here is a pathological liar okay. So what does her brain like. I normally would disagree with this but i made a pact with ron earlier so yeah. Let's go with it. Wendy brush your teeth when everyone else does on holidays and sometimes i forget. I'm not perfect smell of your breath. Bother you mean the smell of rare steak can aged whiskey no care that doesn't bother me because you're bleeding a little bit for the back of your shirt that means it was a good waxing. They got the entire hair hair follicles. I know so ron is how long has it been bleeding. It's been bleeding all night lar- shouldn't go cheap on waxing. I had to throw oh my sheets out. This is ron burgundy until next time. Don't use public restrooms. Listen to the ron burgundy podcast on apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you find your podcasts we're back. We're back. We're talking about how good i am and make an ad plugs talking about that still talking about this good talking about it talking about oh god this case of <hes> yeah. I just listened to that. It has to be thrown. I don't know there's only their twelve yeah. There are whoa safe. It's the industry should throw to have to well timothy mcveigh so he was born on april twenty third nineteen sixty eight mcvay grew up in pendleton new york and an early childhood that was pretty standard for the seventies and eighties he he watched gumby and truth or consequences he played cowboys and indians or cops and robbers with other kids in the neighborhood. Tim preferred playing the good guys as he saw them cops or cowboys wherever possible he was sickly somewhat prone to accidents hurting himself in all sorts of ways young boys who spend a lot of time in the woods tend to do tim was an energetic boy and he might have been someone who wound up on ritalin. Had he been born a decade or two later. He was constantly in trouble for minor things but he also had a good heart. Is this story from american terrorists. The fantastic biography of mcvay makes clear clear. Tim was playing upon when he noticed one of the older neighbourhood boys carrying a burlap sack. The sack was weighted down with rocks curious. Tim could see there was something else wriggling in the sack he watches. The older boy pitched the sack out into the pond where it quickly sank to the bottom. What was that tim asked run into. The far shore of the pond with a neighborhood boy stood. There's kittens. My dad had the boy we answered in a matter of fact tone. We had to get rid of them for tim who loved animals and especially kittens the realization of what he had witnessed him hard. He cried about the incident for days so part of what we're trying to ask. Here's you know we talked about robin. Matthews a little bit earlier. We talked about louis niece. Guys who were pretty brutal early on society from age eleven <hes> the louis beam like immediately wanted to fight and go to war and kill. Tim mcveigh is a sensitive kid who's like heartbroken when he sees someone being cruel to animals confusing facing he's not the kinda guy who would have wound up joining george lincoln rockwell's nazi party which both matthews and beam are the kind of spirit by that the story. Tim mcveigh is the story of how a young mind got enraptured with this kind of terroristic apocalyptic ideology who who wouldn't have gotten caught in the first iteration of this is a guy who would only have been caught by the changes made the movement's propaganda outreaching estes park. I think that's that's the story. We're talking about out today. Well that's interesting yeah so tim fell in love with guns at an early age his grandfather. I took him shooting when he was seven. This probably sounds crazy to some people particularly in in los angeles will reread this but i started shooting at the same age that tim did when i was a little kid living in fucking rural oklahoma. It's pretty normal in that area and tim's grandpa. Everyone said ed ed mcveigh was a stickler about firearm safety and considered safe gun ownership to be an integral part of american citizenship so he likes guns but he doesn't like killing things. He's like target shooter shooter and stuff like he's being small sort of weird. Tim mcveigh was a bit of a magnet for bullies. He developed a deep hatred of bullying and reflexive rage at the site of anything. He saw his bully behavior pure. Whether it came from an individual or an institution tim's parents divorced when they were young sisters chose to go with their mother but tim stayed with his father so that he would not have to be alone again. After the oklahoma city bombing a number of pundits would try to tie tim's parents divorced to have as a terrorist. This would seem to be an overstatement but he did tie his mother leaving his father to broader social trends later stating in an interview that in the past thirty years because of the women's movement they've taken influence out of the household. I i mean i can see that as being a formative spot for why you don't like women yeah yeah yeah which yeah maybe makes them a little bit more sympathetic to the kind of propaganda put out by these groups. The government is bullying yeah yeah when one reads about mcvay they get the feeling that had he been born later. He might have found a home within the outright for one thing he was obsessed with the star wars movies and identified heavily with luke skywalker. The eighty s boy special boys special boy blowing up the big big. Ah special dragon boy as the eighties rolled along and home computer started to become more common mcvay became one of the first generation nation of computer nerds. He was the on the internet before basically anyone else his handle on those early. Message boards was the wonder we can't know everywhere. Mcvay went in the early internet but it's unlikely to be pure coincidence that timothy grew obsessed with survival ism in the second amendment during the years. He was most involved in internet culture. It's entirely possible he came across some of louis beams writings during this time we know for a fact that he fell in love with a book. We've already talked about a lot in this series. You wanna guess what it is tanner daring. That's louis missouri. I lovely beautiful beautiful book but that was a lie he he fell in love with the tournant z. Where right katie yeah yeah he. I heard about the turner diaries from an ad in soldier a fortune magazine. He ordered the book by mail and fell madly in love with it now for the rest of his life. He insists that the books gun rights advocacy was what drew him to it not its depiction of genocidal worldwide the white race war and it's possible he was telling the truth again like randy weaver. Tim mcveigh is definitely a racist but that's not his motivation. You get pieces of yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. I really think he's probably telling the truth when he was like mostly just into it because it had a lot of violent scenes and it was about like a gun control revolution like the racism he could take her leave. That's not a great sign. He has to be racist for this but he wasn't racist enough that he wouldn't have joined the order. Exactly it wasn't wasn't a believer yeah. Yeah yeah post estes park. The turner diaries remained one of the linchpins of white supremacist recruitment in the u._s. Ads for it in magazines like soldier of fortune often posed the question and what will you do with the government comes for your guns. None of this is to say that mcveigh wasn't racist. He grew up in a place where everyone was white. At age nineteen. He got a job as a guard on an armored car. He later recalled his colleagues expressing casual racism towards black residents on the east side of buffalo and eventually he adopted those beliefs and their propensity for using racial slurs racism mosaic fact of tim's life that again. It wasn't like the main thing for him. What was his main thing. We're guns during his time. As a security guard mcveigh spent most of his recreational time shooting shooting he eventually got in trouble with his neighbors doing so and this seems to have influenced his desire to join the army. He basically just wanted to guns yeah. Mcvay was an excellent recruit and by all accounts a very good soldier. He fell in love with most aspects of army life. Although he disliked the emphasis training place on killing in a later interview he recalled twenty any time today it would be blood makes the grass grow. Kill kill kill. You'd be screaming that until your throat was raw. If somebody put a video camera on that they would think it was a bunch of sickos here here right after blowing up a federal building filled with babies but a valid point on bass mcvay continued to read far-right literature devouring conspiracy. Here's the theories about the united states in the united nations conspiring to steal the freedoms and guns of americans. He handed out copies of the turner diaries to his closest comrades. He was worn several times by friends ends who read the book that people would think he was fucking racist stuff around god maybe report him d._c. Friends not great yeah in the gulf war would give tim mcveigh his first chance to actually use guns against other human beings and interestingly enough. He seems to have hated it. He was not not on board with the war from the beginning mcvay the u._s. Military should only get involved in conflicts that directly affected the lives of american citizens. He saw the u._s. Intervention against iraq as bullying and tim mcveigh hated bullies when he shipped over to iraq mcveigh was the governor on bradley fighting vehicle during a battle in country. He killed two iraqi soldiers with the bradley's very large gun. I watched in horror as their bodies disappeared into a red missed. The incident scarred him unlike louis beam. Mcveigh did not enjoy killing the whole world left a bad taste tasting tim's mouth. He was particularly furious when he read about the u._s. Air force bombing of the al mira bomb shelter in baghdad which killed three hundred women and children mcvay returned to america much lesson chanted with military life focus some of that frustration on the black soldiers he served alongside several of them walked around the base and black power shirts which infuriated him he was heard several times in the n. word and a reputation for ordering some of his black support and it's to sweep up the motor pool when pressed about this later mcveigh would point out that some of his closest comrades in the military were black the quote again from american terrorist well. He swore he never embraced. Racism mcvay actively explored the racist point of view he had already begun selling copies of the turner diaries at gun shows and because because of the racist content of the book mcvay wound up on a mailing list for the ku klux klan mcveigh claimed he had virtually no idea what the k._k._k. Was all about the first time he received literature from the racist group he was impressed by one of its pamphlets which expressed concerns about the loss of individual rights in american society and the desire to go back to the way things were in the days of the founding fathers again the estes park stuff. Yeah mcvay spent twenty dollars for the trial membership to k._k._k. Headquarters in north carolina one of the enticements for joining was the white power t-shirt that mcveigh plan to wear around fort riley why why would non-racist when a white power t-shirt mcvay maintained it was intended to protest what he saw as the growing double standard in the army. He said he never did wear the shirt but he made no apologies for buying then her now. I wanted to make a point. He said black guys were wearing black power t shirts on the base they weren't supposed to. I wanted to see what would happen if i wore the white power. T-shirt mcvay didn't renew his as k._k._k. Membership when his first year was up he joined the k._k._k. He said because he thought the clan was fighting for the restoration of individual rights especially gun rights but the more research and reading he did the more he realized the clan was almost entirely devoted to the cause of racism really really him. I am glad you did some research well. He decided the k._k._k. Was manipulated to young people and he didn't renew his membership. Yeah doesn't bullets. He didn't backbone values values. You know values are important and i personally love the values of the products and services that support this show in the montgomery county maryland courthouse. There are thousands of pages of documents detailing the horrific murders of three innocent. People two things from the early days of the investigation are clear. No one knew for sure who committed the murders but some had a theory about who engineered them soon in his. I heard the details. I knew my dad was involved right away. We know it was lawrence. I mean i knew who else instantly. I says lawrence. Everybody knew the lawrence horn was responsible. Nobody even better than i but at the time of the murders lawrence horn was clear across the country watching tv in his los angeles shoeless home and he could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm jasmine morris from iheartradio and hit home media. This is hitman. Listen and subscribe describe at apple podcasts on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts we're back. We're back and i just admitted that i would be willing to have sex with cory. Booker quite wanted if we wanted unwanted. We wanted how we got to this conversation. We're not gonna talk about. It's very inappropriate does not lend anything to the episode shouldn't have admitted it. <hes> not related rated the product. He has good bone structure though i think he's cute forget we said anything about it. Guys sophie does not think he's cute. I don't everyone has different opinions about who they find you. You yeah it's not him. We can all agree though bernie's the cutest pretty talking about bone structure. That guy's got bone in iraq. He's really cute. Cutie cutie potato sweetie young bernie is weird but cute. He got better looking as he got older young bernie. His wife must really have been into radical politics anyway. Who boy oy this is about this. We're finishing this chattanooga chapter right so so tim mcveigh like randy weaver was a perfect example of the sort of man louis beam was hoping to reach not motivated enough by racism to have sought out the movement but comfortable enough with racism frustrated enough by mainstream mainstream american culture be radicalized by the anti gun control new world order conspiracy peddled by the propaganda of the white power movement mcveigh opted not to re enlist after his time of service ran <music> out and outside of the military mcveigh's life was just one frustration after another despite his glowing service record he had trouble finding work civil service jobs he applied for in the state and federal government turned him him down he convinced himself but this was because he was a young white man and thus the victim of what he termed reverse discrimination probably a better way to say like amore illiterate way to say that yeah yeah affirmative action became the focus of mcveigh's thwarted ambitions he started spending more and more time around round gun shows and flirted vaguely with militias including the michigan militia he started sending his sister jennifer stories he'd read about the rockefeller family and they're supposed control of most of the organs of state power. The conspirists mcvay embraced were not quite open neo nazi anti-semites but they were kissing cousins to that kind of belief from american terrorist quote the brothers and sisters discussion sprawled in myriad directions from the bible to the pyramid and its crowning all seeing eye on the back of the dollar bill mcveigh was reading more anti-government books and pamphlets and he shared them with us inquisitive acquisitive younger sister. He wanted to expand perspective. The some of the claims in the literature seemed to bizarre and inconceivable to jennifer including one writers contention that the government was building massive crematoriums in one hundred hundred and thirty concentration camps to exterminate individuals who disagreed with federal policies the authors of the pamphlets anticipating skepticism warned that americans risked becoming victims of it can't tappan here syndrome when it came to government superpower from the people jennifer wasn't sold on everything she read but just as mcveigh hoped the literature got her thinking about the government and individual rights. She looked up to world brother flattered that he thought enough of her engage in political discourse mcveigh believed that the federal government intended to disarm the american public gradually take away the right to bear arms under the second amendment and the summer of nineteen ninety-two. He pointed to events in ruby ridge. Idaho is proof positive that his theory was correct. Now one of the publications that mcveigh read during this period was called the white patriot. It was published by the former k._k._k. Leader the attempted invader of the island of dominica in the founder of storm on black. Yes that boys back that boys voice back blacks back it featured articles with titles like why is the clan of posted jews and also hosted essays from william pierce as as as life prospects dimmed he grew more obsessed with guns and gun shows traveling around the country selling weapons and literature and survival this gear the gun show circuit introduced him to more fringe right-wing literature mcvay began to express frustration that american women were unfairly withholding sex from american men. He called them prudish in stingy. Yeah take those words back. Let's reclaim plane them. Keeping the same story over and over again sure is yeah when the waco siege began mcveigh was instantly obsessed with the story he drove to mount carmel and sold t insurance outside the siege lions commune with fellow survivalist and militiamen as they wordly waited for the outcome and when that outcome came at radicalized tim mcveigh as nothing else could have he read that the the government had used gas which mcveigh had been exposed to during his military training to mcvay this was the ultimate representation of government overreach pure vicious murderous bully elite behavior mcvay didn't stop it being furious about the murder of dozens of innocent people. He became convinced that waco was the prelude to amass government crackdown on gun owners and freedom he he told one friend that he suspected the feds purposely started fires in the compound. The government wanted it to burn because the government couldn't win. The public sentiment was changing. He said mcveigh's rage was reciprocated by the other men he met on the gun. Show circuit men like terry nichols sovereign citizen whose beliefs were essentially descended from the posse comitatus movement mcveigh spent time living on nichols goals is farm in crafting explosives small homemade bombs initially just for amusement but over the months that followed waco mcveigh's rage paranoia stoked by fears of fringe right wing conspiracy theory and has the turner diaries battalion-sized into a plan a plan to bomb the murray building in oklahoma city and yep. It's really sad to yeah yeah yeah. Do it gets bad news cody. He do it he did it. The structure of mcveigh's vase attack was directly inspired by a passage from the turner diaries at one point. Earl turner sell bombs the f._b._i. Headquarters pierce goes into exhaustive detail about the device. They use a truck bomb made with with forty four hundred pounds of ammonium nitrate essentially the same weapon with bay constructed and used to destroy the murrah building on the day. He detonated his bomb killing a hundred and sixty eight people mcvay put together a manifesto of sorts on an envelope in his car and included many photocopied pages of the turner diaries mcvay. It highlighted one passage in particular from chunk of the book where earl turner owner cell carries out a mortar attack on washington d._c. The real value of our attack today lies in the psychological impact not in the immediate casualties more importantly though is what we taught the politicians politicians and bureaucrats they learned this afternoon the not one of them is beyond our reach they can huddle behind barbed wire and tanks in the city. They can hide behind the concrete walls of their country estates but we can still find in them and kill them. Daycare god man yeah. It really showed them yeah. There was probably a daycare on the death star to you. Yes probably what i'm seeing lots of several size of families yeah tim's guy walker bay special special boy special boys tale catnip certain there were a lot of kittens up there in tim mcveigh louis beam and his fellow fascist found the perfect soldier and the perfect exemplar beams concept of leaderless resistance. He was not a lone wolf. Some foolish pretenders of journalism named him mcveigh was radicalized by a constellation of writers and thinkers as well as hundreds of men he spoke with at gun shows and survivalist vilest conventions in sitting outside the siege at waco he was radicalized by william pierce wrote the turner diaries hoping desperately that someone would do exactly what mcveigh did mcveigh's attack jack prompted response from federal law enforcement but not the one you might expect while there were some crackdowns on militia cells and organizations the justice department largely reacted by taking a lighter a hand with white supremacists in militias. Oh okay <hes> but yes cody. We'll see we'll see if it's maybe we'll maybe it'll work. If it stops i i didn't mean i didn't mean to question nineteen ninety-six. The montana freemen wound up in a standoff with the federal government as a group they represented a synthesis of christian identity and posse comitatus beliefs that declared themselves independent of federal control and wound up in an eighty one day standoff with law enforcement for a while. It looked like the freemen compound might become another waco. Put the standoff ended peacefully video footage of the twenty three adults and four children surrendering showed no giant armored vehicles or military looking police. The f._b._i.'s hostage rescue team were sneakers and casual civilian clothing mcvay would go to his grave convinced that the lighter japan used on the montana freemen was the result of his attack on oklahoma city and he may have been right according to american terrorist quote clinton. Our van zandt the former f._b._i. Agent who had tried without success to negotiate a peaceful end to the waco standoff three years earlier agreed with mcvay at least on that point retired from the f._b._i. And working security consultant fans aunt feels that the government learned a painful awful lesson from the oklahoma city bombing in vincent's words. The government realized that it must become a velvet brick not a battering ram. What an absolute classic tragedy van zandt had said soon after the conflagration concentration at waco what a total indictment of mankind's inability to communicate and relate even though we have different religious or personal philosophies. Van zandt condemned the oklahoma city bombing. He felt that waco had started started. A war and then mcveigh's bombing had been not only an escalation but a turning point in that war my only disagreement with mister van zandt is the idea that the war mr mcvay wound up fighting and had started with waco. This war had been going on much longer than that. At least as far back as the days of george lincoln rockwell timothy mcveigh may have seen himself as a patriotic american but but he fought as a soldier of the american fascist movement under generals louis beam and william pierce the failure of the federal government and almost everyone to see this war is one reason why things have gotten so bad in two thousand nineteen as i write this mcvay would be joined on down through the years by dozens of other angry. Young men men like eric harris and dylan klebold the infamous columbine shooters. Most experts agree that harris was the primary motivating force behind the attacks more or less pulling cleveland along with him. This is not often reported on but harris was obsessed with adolf hitler and nazism awesome and wrote constantly about nazi ideology his hatred of free speech the press in his desire to see mentally defective people executed harris was also obsessed with timothy mcveigh. Dave cohen is a journalist who spent more than decades studying the massacre he found regular references to oklahoma city and mcvay in harris's writings before the shooting colin writes quote in his journal journal eric would brag about topping mcvay. Oklahoma city was a one note performance mcveigh said as time ran walked away. He didn't even see spectacle unfold harris admired mcvay but desperately really want to beat him carrying out a larger attack and killing more people. You think that will escalate things more. You think that attitude might be acceleration. Ism <hes> now. Eric harris and dylan klebold did not succeed in their goal or in harris's goal of topping timothy mcveigh vay but harris may yet managed to beat mcveigh's high score in the decades since the nineteen ninety-six shooting at columbine it has inspired at least seventy four copycat attacks which killed eighty nine nine people and injured one hundred and twenty six more you can draw a direct line from george lincoln rockwell to william pearson louis beam tim mcveigh and then to eric harris by the late nineteen eighteen ninety s it was incredibly clear that leaderless resistance as a tactic was the best weapon in the white supremacist arsenal but it would take the mass adoption of the internet and the era of the smartphone for louis beams deadliest innovation to see its full potential and we're gonna talk about that in the next episode of this podcast terrorists there. Should i wait until we're done with the whole thing. I dunno pretty bummed out right. Yeah you're right. Maybe maybe it's time maybe it is time or maybe don't do it at all. No i have to do it. I have to do it. So what do you think after the last episode now how about you throw it towards that couch and celtic moves away away. I can't read your your blink. Sovi wait until the next episode. I really want to yeah. I want to draw this shit out. Yeah we draw the shit out. I'm gonna wait climax. Plug your stuff. That's right google are names teams which are pellet right. It's katy stolen cody. John <hes> we have youtube show some more news podcasts even more news codeine twitter twitter and patriotic dot com slash savemore t public and all the things if you are interested just like google it six six eight years. You're oh you do not tomorrow at the end of these episode. We're not go to war and we're gonna do the last one because it's the last one but we've already. Are you the next one podcast as chelsea handler teams up with alexa to brighten up your mornings all week long say alexa good morning and chelsea will start your day. It's pretty cool right. It sounds nice though i'd put it on a coffee mug totally so start your day with an award-winning writer actor comedian and podcasters chelsea handler just say alexa good morning and don't forget at checkout chelsea handler's podcast life will be the death of me on iheartradio. Just say alexa play me chelsea handler's podcast.

timothy mcveigh tim mcveigh louis beam mr mcvay randy weaver government mcveigh louis beam Earl turner federal government waco ruby ridge alexa oklahoma ed ed mcveigh estes park los angeles eric harris klan sophie chelsea
215: The Podcast Guru

Overnight Drive

1:17:02 hr | 1 year ago

215: The Podcast Guru

"Yeah. Jackson. Casulty dot. I am. Utah. Professional. Yeah. We're if you wanna know how it's done. Just dial us up. Exactly, what sold a course. Ninety nine dollars for six online classes for how to make your podcast better. Oh god. It would be amazing. Have you ever wanted to have upon you always also I'll start again. All right wanted to do upon cast, but never knew him, no world's chance and your voices. All weird like. This is your chance. We like a sweeping shot where shows like this is like the the ten the five minute trailer video of like by our PDF now by our downloadable PDF. You get the free PDF forgiving us. Your email? Don't give us your fucking Email. Whatever you do know you have to leave a review, and if we review and get a tag five people in on social media to get the free PDF. Exactly we fucking great. I think it'd be really good tag five simps- who don't know how to use fucking audacity on on Twitter to get your free PDF to enter into the drawing to win a free. 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Voicemail that when that when sideways pretty quickly there in the end, I want so badly to give you that life where you're just a you're the Tony Robbins for like real dorks. Oh my God. Two thousand dollars a head to show up once you fucking dance around for twenty five minutes. I can brand myself as the podcast guru. It'd be great the podcast guru. Hey guy. Oh. I had this. I had I've meeting with a guy recently. And I wanted to talk about podcasts and stuff. It was really weird because I was like, wow. I know a lot about this stuff meeting about podcast or you just happen to talk about it was more. It was like a lot about podcasting. To tell me what your deal is. You know, they're gonna think that it was really a rare like how do a lot about this stuff? Maybe I can just like do a panel at south by. Yeah. When the great we never we never got our tickets that stupid podcasting event that they nonstop advertising, my mail has been Ford for a long time. And I got I finally got the invite good three days after good was kind of shitty. Actually, I felt really bad. But the great thing is that woman who we talked to texted me now all times, and we're like, we're are you guys gonna read them right now going to be great this one sec here? Okay. Some forty seven PM. Hey, just talk to them. What name needs to go on the list. They can add it, gone o'clock PM. Do you want me to put names on a list? I can definitely do that. Little couldn't hear you on the phone. It was so loud eleven fifteen God, high go home. The thirst go we doing out at eleven o'clock at night. There's no one. There's nothing. Good out at eleven o'clock at night. There's only dangerous people on the streets. Go home. Now. I'm not south by everything's cool. South is like all day, and my party the entire world after eleven pm is the parking lot from the lost boys. Just don't go there. In your house the door now, but is the parking lot from the lost boys, necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, they come from the sky, and they get you even if you're in a car, they'll take the roof off they'll get ya. And they get you get you. But what if you turn around, and you're like you like just not not that fucking that security guard turned around he saw he saw the one looks like fucking twisted sister. You got pissed didn't work. You know, what gone you're you're basically the dude in the gas station when angels filling up his. Hey, bookworm read in college. Boy, what are you in college? Well, I love is. So Dicky to him for no not in in these like Dickie, and he blew up as gas station. Yeah. Yeah. Let's goes robo cops. Fuck. Fuck robo Cup kinda blew the gas station. If we really wanted call it what it is. But man that guy they stay posted like a a minor threat porch. Type. Yeah. Home man of them in the event. It was Kearns badeah Aimal, Vince and the name of the the the black. I escapes me the guy who's lack. Well, we got a new. So good. But they all they all took basically the same photo that they took for promotions. Like, you know, forty or thirty years ago, whatever it was so awesome. Aimal hasn't aged day. That toxic waste really helped him out. Yeah. Everyone else looking looking different shades of not as hot. Yeah. And I think Botica's still make in that sweet syndication money. Hey, man, you know, it's really cool and like I need money. I mean, what's his name? The aim will was on was he on ER or some shit. So he I think he was so he's got syndication money then Miguel for hours dead. So that's still a little, you know, more in the pot. I mean, yeah, sure his share it's divided up. That's how it works. So how are you pal? Sound strange? It's because I'm sick again for the third time in two months. Fucking sucks. Why I don't know, man. I haven't been sick all year. Yeah. I sunday. I kind of felt it. And then I tried to try to beat it. But it didn't work. So Monday morning. My first day at the the new the new office new chalk factory. I was fucking sick. As a dog show. We call this place will light bulbs the lightbulb factory. Yes. So let us say now it has written now and forever unemployed drive official. It's over over God. This is a cause for celebration. Fella batory. You know, it's weird kind of celebrations. All right on employ. Dr reston peace. Okay. Real good grew them. So yes. Better now. But I'm still like to do a lot of the the cough button on this episode. Oh, yeah. Oh, you got a new cough button. Called me placing a marker then going through and selectively editing when I cough later on me, really fun. Oh, that's good. You do all those little minor edits like professional podcasters to now used to us. Forget it. Like, I you know, what if you if you don't love me, and my you don't get me at my fucking do the sock thing. Exactly. Or don't do the soccer thing. Whatever was people loved. That's true. I I'm member of those. I'm taking my shirt off really hard. Well. Not that. The music really got you. I'm not sitting unamended sound like I was sitting shirtless. I'm not sitting. I'm sitting shirtless loans, you if we both podcast in the nude only by candlelight. When the camera's not on. We just have to trust each other doing it. Andrew, I'm nude great. I need you to try need you. I'm on my hands and knees begging you to trust me. You know what I'm not going to? I'm not gonna podcast by candlelight. But instead I'm going to turn all the Phillips Hugues in my office read. Oh, wow. That might cause some. Turn the office read my God. Yes. Okay. Read. It is here. I was gonna take it really slow because the gas is turned up way too hot right now. So I was going to slow down a little bit. But I. Andrew I am. Bad. I've been really. Thinking about I'm thinking about asking you a question, MS cool of ask you, no. But you're going to anyway, so short, can you can you let me slide still for it. You wanna fly? Well. Okay. Why? I knew my my new vile term of the month for sex slide. It's really hideous. That's fucking awful. And I heard somebody use it and size. Great. Really good. He's he's like he asked me if I wanted to slide, and I was like, I just sent you a photo of my office in all read, I am in the red light district. In fact, this is how I'm gonna podcast now on I think fucking love this holy shit. It looks really central. It's really sensual in here. It's wild gosh. This is the this is the fucking one overnight drive plaza. Red light district though, my God, this is really really nice overnight trive after dark. Overnight drive after Dr while we should do overnight drive after dark. We're supposed to at some point. I that was a plan from a long time ago. Do like a like a half hour of no holds barred phone calls. We could do that. We should do that. It's pretty good out of other a lot of other podcasts the same thing. But we would limit better. No, we will do a better because we are. We don't censor ourselves. And we don't have any sponsors. That's you. To realize in when we get too hot. What do you think we would have to do to make rhetoric coffee? Be like, yo you guys don't have to do that thing anymore. It's cool. Line. We have to crawl. Just remind them that they're giving us free coffee. Every that might do it. That'd be like. Oh, yeah. That's where that forty dollars. I still don't get coffee. It's still probably go to my old apartment. I gave I gave my contact. That's there. I don't know where it's going, but at ain't going here. But you know, what it does matter. I appreciate them all the same talk to their Adleman a little boy. Talk to admin about it. I mean, I can call it. My Pissy executive assistant voice. Hi, this is Jeff Dahmer. And I am I'm calling on behalf of Jeff Dahmer. Jeff Dahmer, I understand. It would be great because Defcon was obviously dead. Yes. So you know, you see like there's somebody else on earth who has the name Jeffrey Dahmer, and it would be great to be like, oh, I'm holding for Jeff Dahmer. This is Rita is bell holding for Jeff Dahmer. This is Rita is bell perfect. This is if you don't know me, I'm the oldest sister of Lindsey. Why God and they have a phone call. And she's like, I I run IT company want. It's that fucking that meltdown set to the Cisco. Hold music. Oh, it'd be great. Now. What if she does she like knock to screw Liz and decided to go and find every person Jeffrey Dahmer in the world how and heels guy works like Minneapolis. Unfortunate name. But whatever, you know, it costs so much to get it changed. Ken. I can't shake that amount of money lose to get. My name changed hasn't weird that Jeff won't changes name like you keep going emails all day that said Dahmer Jeff in your outlook. You're like it's a so weird wish I wish that somebody would kill a bunch of people using the name. Leanne be cool. Cool. I don't want to people who died. Don't get me wrong. But lake right. Like, it'd be it would be cool to share the name with somebody who did something. Hell afoul? Right. I say that now as somebody who doesn't actually worry about this. But just the same Andrew Hitler. Right. Yeah. You know? I think I think you're. It was real name. I mean, nobody with my name Louis. We gotta be honest. Nobody with my name is achieving anything. Oh, you looking though bad name while your first name. Yeah. Both I they last a bad name. My name is great. I wish I changed my name to I really want to they want. I have no I've got no middle name. And my parents offered to let me pick my middle name when I was like twelve we don't ask a twelve year old middle names. Yeah. Do it'd be it'd middle name would be Donatello. I was about to open my mouth and say my middle. Name would be done a Tele. That's fine weird. That was a weird thing. It just happened. Right. There is what we do. It would be like a castle Vania or some bullshit. So Andrew wolfenstein wolfenstein wasn't even around when I was twelve it would be like it be fucking Andrew legendary wings or something like that. It's fucking so stupid. Dairy wings. Have to course, say the Andrew unreal tournament. Of course. Yeah. Andrew curry warriors. Like, oh, cool name. You know, I always would say, I cur warriors. Interesting and I was corrected. But I was corrected. This is when I lived briefly in Seattle corrected by somebody who was real jerk, and I forever, and I was like this is just an Atari game. And he's like, it's it's a Cari. And I was like I cry and then I was like, you know, and the worst thing to say when you live in Seattle who cares. Oh, yeah. No like, yeah. The east coast. Who cares? And then it was like, yeah. It really bad. Like that is like, you know, the due to the party who will you'll be telling a story about like anything. You went to say you. He went there. And you found you found a dollar on the ground, right? Oh, I found twenty bucks on the grounds. Amazing. And then he's like. Yeah. Well, sunk she didn't think to like give that to somebody who needed it who invited you to this party killjoy. I was at a party with somebody exactly like that the other day. And it was like I was I that was my first time I ever thought. Wow. Maybe I'm too old to go to party. Yes. Wanted to wanted to rip this little dudes head off. Was just like give me an accounting of everything. You've unselfish you've done today now without fucking referencing your phone. Yes. Mr perfect. Let's see. Let's see what you did today. Mr. pious, perfect, Christian Catholic. Jesus Christ fucking Saint Thomas Aquinas here at the party. No, like, really like there's a house here where somebody like people, occasionally, we'll talk about how they can make shows better. And someone was like, well, there's a lot of swearing and drinking at show. It's becoming like a real Colt like situation. Wow. That person should absolutely murder themselves. That's fucking great is a lot of swearing and drinking. Yeah, it's a show. Swearing. Oh. What are you your parents Jesus? This is fucking insane. Because like when people get like people get wound at me, sometimes when I have when I have a hot take for the American left. But it's like, yeah. This is Jerry Falwell playbook. You realize that? Right. Like, oh, yeah. It's comfortable is held to me to shit on these people because I've been shitting on people doing this shit for thirty years of my life lake. You know, this is fucking old. We got this ready people who didn't want you have an abortion the nineties did the same shit. It's fucking weird. Knock it off. Learn a drink and swear it shows that oh, we're just swear you can swear some swear say go to the we know scream. The worst set of words you've ever said in your life out the window doing now go you, let me slide. Take it back. Slide. I I can think of a couple of things you can say that are pretty bad. But I'm not going to say them. Cool. Remember the long time ago like a long time ago. I put out a request for voicemails. Yes. From axes. Yes. Somebody actually sent one to me today was that. How long was that a minute ago? No, no. I did one to long. Okay. But this one was from twenty fifteen out great. Okay. Well, yeah, I was going through through all the ex was from fifteen in the voicemail from twenty fifteen voicemails. They on twenty fifteen right? Yeah. Also mad at you. Because you didn't play the voice mail. They sent you know, I talked today's fine totally fine. Because I'm looking I wouldn't through my Email confirm threes because I got a bought a soundboard from my phone shit. And yeah, it's nothing crazy who only five samples on here. It's not get crazy. But it was I put this one up because the sample length is unlimited talking put a two hour movie on the sample grades. Great useful. Yeah. Really is. But this is one of the best I've ever heard and sounds fake. But it's not. And I encourage everybody else send in your ex crazy ex shit because it's the best men, women, whatever great them, whatever. But this is really good. Because well, just play it. One of the year. Sorry. I did a. To stay with them. Call them up or something. They would do that. Wondering how these other guys? I hate. But I wouldn't can't you. You on. Pitch. Great voice, really Gilman. I'm coming to get my shit. And I want a good fuck. All right. I'll be here. Fucking awesome. I love I love that. I love when people send shit like that. So please send more that wasn't good damn. And I'm sorry that we waited for years to play but worth it age. Like a fine wine. It really did. You know? Interesting fact, she's married to Senator now. Yes, she is. She's actually married to beta Rourke. Oh. Beta will rook had a speech this week where he talked about he talked about like Fuga Ozzie, and he's got to stop doing that. I remember that. I I have a clip of do you wanna hear please? Dato? So my fucking dick beta beta side of talking about that shit. If he went from punk to like dude is really in the sex and porn dirty shit. I would be Taibbi vote. I would I would put up a tent at the church on the corner where I vote. Because he's gonna make it to the primaries. Kennedy good looks. Like a five five thirty eight whatever that that website is already giving them good on sale. Right. That do I think I did my thing in the live the live broadcast. Yeah. Oh, you know. It's. Like that just keeps talking about the mechanica fan. Boy like MCI is going to somehow run with him. Right. Like think is gonna happen here. Like how embarrassing for the fucking deal with starting a legacy? I could extremely embarassing movement cult-like movement of people who fucking tip over like someone who has a beer in their hand and shit like that. So I used to deal with that as the deal. The fact he wrote a song called guilty of being white. Yeah. Whoops. And now he's like a wakes up one morning, and he has like amici thousand messages like what the yellow I we can see like it's very possible. If beta keeps doing the bullshit, and it somehow gets bigger that you'll have people writing think pieces about guilty of being white straight up thirty something years after it after it came. Oh, yeah. Oh, no. Oh, this is your idol. Fuck. Song with beta now, just now he just needed the volume. So this can happen. Fuck it. Let's just do it. Now, we're beta just just in a roundabout way. He gets exactly we're just a fucking have BuzzFeed think piece on minor threat that looking back looking back minor threat. Oh, two we are are we in a position to cancel in MCI. To me have I you know. I just oh I Michael Jackson and the MCI that they they all must fall. That's it. They almost fall like dominoes of life until there's nothing fun left. Nothing left, and he'll be like eighteen and people like, no, no, no. You won't come in our podcast. We'll get you cancelled via presidential election. No problem ever. Get to the phone starts stumping for beta. Please. Can we have an happen? Well, my would be amazing. I don't feel like he's coming on the podcast now feeling whatever little bit of a possibility there still was the door might have finally closed on that. Now, I think that if we change resolve them every tell him who were not then we'd just be like, can we're we're trying to start a podcast, and which need them big. I guessed. And then like we do the thing with him. And then we just put it on our podcast. Instead, it turns out to be our our white survivalist podcast. Explain this over the phone. Exactly, oh, we have a point counterpoint now either that guy recently did a this one podcast from Canada. Did a thing where it was beanie an e MCI talking at the same time on Skype, and then it was kind of like this guy was moderating. But not really. And then it was actually interesting to listen to because they clearly don't like each other. Great great. But they were kind of like, I don't know why they were kind of like just humoring each other for over an hour and. Was being said that writes us ring sucks. Nice true. And and and. Guys. Like, actually, they're one of the best bands over not truth. Yeah. It was like really ju- juvenile and infantile, but if we can get MCI on with like Randy Weaver. Oh, that'd be good. But hey in why no we didn't tell you. It was like a last minute thing. Well, we actually have lawn or are you Chee here. I don't know if you know who lawn. No, it's not the basis from Soundgarden the first base. I know you're thinking, but it's not him. It's actually he's the one who shot Vicki Weaver, and he's just want to talk about living in DC and my family going. Well, we can talk. They might have some thoughts on that. Aren't you? Tired of talking about music all the time to talk about something fun. You know, here we have this is our we have LAN her UT Randy Weaver on the other line. They don't know each other on there yet. And then in MCI who just wants to talk about gentrification in fucking. I I can't think of a DC foggy bottom foggy bottom. The the best neighborhood in DC bottom. Sorry. I couldn't have DC neighborhood fast that bad best Joris awful and foggy foggy bottom. No. I love. What is that? Abraham. That had the good flaw. Fuck was Morgan now Adams Morgan. Yeah. But we can say foggy bottom. We have in MCI on the line one line. And then we have Randy Weaver on the other one and Lon Horiuchi on the the third line. What do we do? Do we bring them in because we have gone and Randy who fucking he. Well, I don't think Lon cares. But Randy really, it's one. Yeah. Randy lawn for sure this is compelling broadcasting and in the middle of moderate in MCI who has no idea who. Complete entirely. Sure what Ruby Ridge is kinda remembers it, but you know. Oh, okay, sir. Well, you're okay. All right. And ran is awesome. Like oh. I don't really know who you are. But it's it's a nice to talk to you in. Lonzo like, yeah. It's great to great to be here. Randy just want to give you my respect some sorry about Vicki. And he's like, I bet you are. You're the reason shoots dead. And it would be the whole thing and the knee and Mikhail would be like, whoa. But he couldn't because of the hubris. He stopped talking. He needs to have his his say. Yeah, it'd be amazing. It would be so good. And then like, I really want that to just be your phone. I know he put out a really good video. You gotta hit him up and see just what kind of phone. Do you have? So you can go. He's you know, I think we've got them right where we want him only because I he posted a really endearing video, and I'm gonna play it right now suppose really Deering video about something that happened to him this week. And like I posted on immediately words encouragement grain love great. And he will be right back, essentially. I like everybody to come together and congratulate Ryan van wick on a right of passage something that every man goes through every man wants to have happen in life and finally happened to him. I'm not talking about sex and talking about getting his learner's permit. Yes. Buckle up, no pun intended. Got it. But I finally passed my permit test start took them five. This is our moment myself when I went in. I said, I hope tested hope hope it has it which I did only got one question. One year only about the missed six in the multiple choice. And I think only missed one maybe that was it. Then I said I was so happy that I passed it. So much because they said, they would they would hire you hear that dragging was that. That was it. Then I said, I was so happy. Only about to miss six in the multiple choice. And I think only missed one maybe that was it. Then I said I was so happy that I've passed it. Get hold of. Always something. And that person has an answer. So I'm gonna keep trying to help them and help them and held them until I get all of them. I'll go out there eventual car. Indiana is on their loans. It's so fucking ass backwards because they got fifty. But when it comes to the rules of the road and everything it was like fifty questions you get an answer. And sometimes trick questions on Mike. And I'm thinking, okay. I stood. I hope I pass this test. I said even five times I said, I I took it four times. The driver. Knowing william. With an actual rule license, and we have a new man who's an could go off and go do what I wanna do after. I get my license from New York. Read them. Never disappoint. Good for him. Good for him. I don't that. It was a heart warming tale of. I'm so excited. Andrew I can't keep it in longer. What do you got? I have a really big surprise. I got Jeffords. Remember? No, I'm not fucking kidding. No, I'm gonna call them. Okay. I'll believe this here it, okay? You will everybody. This is the moment that we've been talking about for while we were so close to him. And we'd never thought at the time to talk to him because we weren't doing the podcast then, but now's really foolish in retrospect, I have been talking back and forth with his manage. You also happens to be his wife added them all on Facebook. Okay. And. Yeah. And I I mean. Said call your on nine he's like cool. So here we go. Six PM there. Okay. You know what? Whatever. Well, then. Don, goddamn phones fucking. Really fucked up. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, everybody. We're coming back. Coming back coming back around. Hi, this Jeff. Hey, jeff. This is awesome. Overnight drive. How are you? Smoking's weeding pizza. She'll actually. Great. So how's the tour going? Spectacular man. You know, it's just you know, every time you get there's Russia the road. You know, it's you know, how it is is man. Addition man, it's nothing like, you know, being out. Three thirty a m fucking. I forty to blown tires. Sure. By Cody live, man. Gentleman. Sean, Sean duties on the phones good. So good good. How are you? Tweeting enough to far from the truth, and you can hear you. But he can't speak to you. Because we don't have that technology. But hey, good. So what's new in life? Good. I haven't seen in a while. Working said that last time. He's literally moving soon to wear. Spots working. I was like six blocks from Ireland now in Ridgewood so told everybody where you Lynn out of people are going to be running there. And drove if we're going to be stalking fucking. Just went up by thirty percent. The real estate prices are going right through the roof. Now that everybody knows where you're going to live. Guy. Yeah. Jeff. What even eating lately? What even I heard your hedger cook? Yes. That is correct. Great. Well, wow. Well, eating eating or cooking. Most people the same for most people. So. Home reply getting a new spots like two new counter space like literally no workspace. So it makes it kind of impossible to anything. So usually. Most family meal at work anyhow and then off. The similarities between goody and Ryan van Wyk or pretty close. Right. Yeah. It's it's wild. Oh my God. Get him set up with Ryan, then we really gotta get you set up. We gotta get you on the good foot, man. Well, good. It's been great talking to you. When I next time. I come down. We all got hang. We went out. We went out last time. I was down. We went out and we ripped it up. Now, you know, we tried to get all these that you're at work. Oh. I work on the week on the weekends restaurant. So. But we went out we were out so five AM. We saw we saw the sun come up over the prominent. Yeah. That's great. You in bed. Do you sleep get hot and your room? Do you sleep? No clothes on. Museum. Call. Do you ever lie? Candy every candle making. Oh, all right. Candle. It's SRI minimum amount of light. Yeah. I didn't think he would do what were you thinking of doing what the candle if you could? Oh, really? Well, not right now kind of. The. Yeah. I know I actually got an I got a there's a politician on the other line. I gotta go. Got it. There's a beta will wrecks on the other line. I gotta Ligo pill. Love you. I love your good ING by. To look at that God after all these years of fucking being frenemies, and sort of friends he gets that he's in. Wow, he's in. And then when I go to his room with the candle on it will be. Can you just mad picture in your mind's eye him laying down nude coming home from work decided to relax light some candles from a lot of Colonel? I bet he's thinking about on the train home. You know, it's like a whole thing. He's I got home and a lot of Campbell. So good my God. If I could fill montage, I would totally do it. I need and was money. I would film that fucking mouth is film him coming home from work. And I put it out on the independent film channel remember that Allah chill duty or a home from work to home for year. And you just silently filled every. Skin, this the the flickering the flickering light of a candle? Count. It'd be amazing car set it to goodbye horses and let it go. Kenny G G. Mike. So what do you like to do? And you come home. Carnival. Dr. Matic about ten. The American pair. Oh, wow. That. Okay, with you know, it's not. Okay. Well, I mean, actually if you're asking me. No that that is not okay. No way way on a we on K with me. Not even not even not. Okay. On k. Yeah, that's a new canceled. But he's so uncaring. Do you wanna do some questions? Remember a lot of. So I guess. More random movie suggestions like hell comes to frog town, please. Wow. Now, there's not a whole lot out there. Like hell comes the frog town kill dozer, really good. Very good moves talked about kill dozer before. What is that movie? I talked about it on here. What is it? Order of death were Johnny rotten and Harvey KYW tell keep like hold them hostage in a Upper West side apartments, really good. Yep. Oh, yep. As gave him the Bronx, really good. There's a was it kinda can't think of it. Now, totally on the spot. It should read these questions I had Bronson through three one through three not one-two-three. Although there's a special movie called death, which one two three which is just like a conglomerate like they took a third of third a third of the script pages and just put them all the fuck outta here. That would be great. If it was well, wouldn't it? What else my call? No one ever. No one ever celebrates the movie neighbors, the Belushi Aykroyd movie neighbors give that a shot. Absolutely. And I don't I'm gonna I'm gonna flip over to those kind of a sin to flip over to television. But TV episodes are like little movies, right which watch air wolf. That's true. All right. I know he died two months like he died, and like the beginning of January, and it's actually classic Jan-Michael. Vincent, he died two months ago. And all the sudden in March it was like oh word, really. That what a weird life fucking fuck. He's he was I love his story of becoming disfigured. His face became disfie-. Hell dig left throb in the eighties. You know, a good looking dude wa wow. No. He was like the he was like a John Eric Exum. Yeah. Remember him? And he was like really Hearthrow, but he quit air will because they weren't giving them enough money. Plus he was drunk depending on ask. And he's like well fuck it. I'm going to be a major movie star. And that's summer that he quit. He was following girls. Home from the beach like what a life, right? And they did the thing where they stopped at the ele- instead of running it. And he rented them smashes face in the windshield. Unbelievably disfiguring himself. He looked like a character you encounter a shadow run video game after that. He was he was all fucked up. Absolutely. And then he lost his career. He lost his looks. And he lost his life pretty much. And then you got really any like drugs, and she was really bad. So yeah, tragic figure, but we love genyk figures. So yes, that's true. I wonder if I can find there's footage of him when he was on the Howard Stern show where he looks awful. I know does all my God. I wonder if still in YouTube, I don't know looking right now. I oh, wait. Maybe maybe why am I seeing YouTube just giving me black screens instead of like a you'll? Yeah. Down for me too. Is that right? Yeah. No, no now, it's now we're good. We're. We're. Oh, it's because there's no picture. And that's why it's just the audio. No. That's not great them. All right. Cool. Fuck you. All right. Let's go to the next question. All right. Shits? I'm getting old. I can't figure when I had. No, you're not you're not I'll do one. Please do weepy voice killer. Carrie, okay. Love to hear him sing some of his favorite songs. Well, I don't know any of poll Michael's define his favorite songs. But I can definitely do before killer karaoke Andrew name a song. Please. Oh god. Do. Do do some Depeche mode. Okay. To find some karaoke for Depeche mode and thankfully, download to karaoke app today. Thank god. And how weird everything's working out? Really? Well for us. Asking from you can grant. I love. Get. To commercials. Not working not working out. Yeah. It's time to get the thing. I'm going to buy the thing tonight. Cheesy. Just quietly listening to cheese commercial. Fairy everybody. Cooking. Little. Little Bruins goal. Wow. That was really good. Thank you. Feel so stupid. I love it. I love things that make me feel dumb. Got a couple fresh ones in. Everybody's still going hot right now. Do that a close? Call this week on the bed rack and still shaken up came out clean. But with a wreck neck could have been away whereas cars fucked either view have any near death experiences to think to speak of. Nia near death have been a couple car wrecks. Yeah. Like, I'm trying to think of I've I've definitely had things where it's happened. Then I've stood there. Like, I should be dead. Oh, yeah. That's interesting that that happened like was both car accidents that the car flipped a little shitty. Eighty four escort. Did we ever tell the story of you flipping the burning bridges van? I don't think we ever did. Actually. This was Joe Camrys favorite story to tell people. Tell. Yeah. You're the van guy. Yeah. Great. I'm vanguard. Actually, I'm in the next call. Okay. So the short stories that for one of burning bridges was a band, essentially saw Scott recently at whole foods. That's scott. Where he was looking good. We're all we're like, we're getting healthy here, we little week grass yank grant. But he would he was very enthusiastic about the band most times more than anybody many else in the band. So he would be like, you know, what's Wednesday night? And burlington. Sure. So we drive at the Burlington fine where young Tuesday asterik, you know, we can do this. I would it was Dr much like an end of year Dr. So void use rental vans. Because Scott had a credit card because he's a grownup. Yeah. That's what a luxury at that point. I know it was it was crazy. So we have rental van. So it was a Pontiac Sienna van. I remember it and we're driving, and it was a brand new one and driving and I decided. Vermont is a strange place in that. It has like these has his weird like pockets where it gets too cold and freezing all of a sudden. So I went down up route twenty two and suddenly it was the road was a sheet of ice. So I decided to slow down as soon as I hit the brake van spun because it was really back heavy because we always brought like four bands worth shit with us. And then the the van hit and then like wind up in the air, and then came down on the roof, and as crash ING, I yelled, I'm sorry. Never. It was a testament to how sweet I am a person that my final words would be. I'm sorry. Let's say say white concern. I'm quite certain rather that your final words will be. I'm sorry. Yeah. No, absolutely. Or be like, no not this way. That'll be my final words not like that. Like this like this. I'm certain mine will be come up and then death. Exactly. Holy shit. Our we've me with the the urban legend that Walt. Disney's final words were Kurt Russell. No. Yeah. That's a real big St. no, we don't know if it's a real thing. But it's a real urban legend, the apparently, Walt Disney loved little boy, Kurt Russell. Oh my God. It's now tell me more tell me that's about all, I know. Right there. So it Walt Disney. Okay. So Walt Disney's like. I don't think he was. I only was spoke. I think it was the last thing he expressed he wrote Kurt Russell down. And then died. Yes. Fume so good Mickey. Donald. Oh what Jim Henson's year who he says he's going to take over? Hey mickey. Oh, Michael Jackson's here. I love the wiz. Meal. Great musical. We're gonna make rush soon as I get better. We're gonna make a ride called the wiz. And then. Happen occur. Also, I loved him. I do love him. Whatever happened to. Kirk rules all mall when then his. Let's it sweet oblivion. Yeah. If I play the wrong one where it doesn't do the ending. That's a bummer. Can we can we just reflect on what a fucking odd life Kurt? Russell is head gets diddled by fucking Walt Disney. Go. All right. I don't know. He's an old man hanging out with a child, definitely. Yeah, you're right. You're totally Ryan actually goes in please minor league baseball, then becomes an actor acts in three four of the best movies ever made like ever made. Goes in Mary's Goldie Hawn and ages in reverse for the next forty years. Interesting. Yeah. He's still a hot guy on fucking believable. Just see him in whatever fucking stupid moral movie. He was he was in field of dreams. Yeah. It was field of dreams looking real good. Fucking straight dill. He's a delph super dill's deal with BDA. All right. Russell. What else we have here? Let's see I I hear myself getting sicker. So I apologize. Everyone else can hear that as well. Pretty sure I just got ghosted after talking shit on kids and craft brewery culture. What's the lamest shit? You've tanked date on discussion wise, God take one of a whole other podcast my God tank the date on Nazi shit. Yeah. Nazi shit. I remember having to you. Yeah. A couple of times what even to come re. I'm almost finished. I almost finished reading rather than fall the Third Reich again such good book, and they're like, wow. Yeah. It's great. Actually, a good book. But now the copy that my dad gave me as a swastika on the cover. That's great. Yeah. So it's rough. But it's history. It happens swan because we're around. Some some history website today posted a gif of Hitler hopped up on 'em fed. I saw that. Yes. Good. So good. He's fucking jacked up on drugs. And is that some say that he has had a had a Fetterman addiction. What do you think? Like what what do? You mean? What do I think that was the worst thing was full on? It was wild. Yeah. You know, say what you will about Hitler. I think the worst thing that he had going for him was that he was hooked on speed. Everything else is forgivable. But yeah, his can crank addiction. Past staying up for ninety six hours, totally Norring responsibilities at home with Eva and Goldie the dog and their kid and the kids and then killed a bunch of Joop Jewish people to allegedly allegedly fucking that is what's going to cancel the podcast all of a sudden, there's also the coffee anymore. It's good. Thank you. We'll call Bego fucking tomatoes gonna show us. Oh, save. Stain on my table. Vado doesn't rally the Empire State plaza. It is going to be the best. Definitely definitely is those sleeves rolled up in the summer all hot. Remember, little grit hardcore vans came from this town. It was here at the black flag show when they broke the toilet at the VFW hall, and they stopped having shows the last show the VFW ever had. Oh boy. And it was like voting for him twice. I'm gonna wear disguise. We're gonna vote for him again because he likes hardcore music. Wait, when's the last time injure work crust? Bam T shirt, you know, mill idea not begin to tell last time. I've wore bam t shirt was when we played the nineties at that Halloween show. And I wore the earth crisis teacher that smells like a corpse. I want that that was really fun. I remember footage of that somewhere. Probably. But yeah, I don't I don't think I've worn a banned t shirt since then if you've given me a band t shirt, guess what worn what not wearing it? Maybe a word on laundry. Not even the. No, I stopped. I conveniently stopped wing benchers because they'll stop fitting, me helpful. It's great because all the vintage of my vintage shirts into just wanted. They all only go to XL. And I'm right now, I'm a solid double X. So it's great. Why is it Ryan van wick been on yet? You scared Gail. Look, I am. I'm a little scared of it. Yeah. But you know, I think we're power through his license now. So he can just drive out. And be like, hey, man, come drive out to New York City, the big city, we're gonna get you Donald up. We're gonna get tuned up. We're gonna get you laid we're gonna you're gonna wake up next to someone. You don't even know. This hisas thou God fucking gas is gonna be so hot when he's in town. I'm thinking of a right now. It's like holy shit. He's going to be doing some what if he's like really good at Saks what if he's doing like forbidden positions ship. Good. The woman you brought back screaming Ryan. Oh, and I knew that. Sorry. I knew that was going to have got to wrap wrap. It. We got to wrap it up. Andrew sick. I'm okay. I'm gonna be all right. I'm good. I'm C C podcasters flu game right now. Flu gains having. It's all good. I'll way to end it around the sneezes, Michael Jordan right now, God damn Horace Grant, lease hours grants got his arm around him when he's Jackson's to sue six even stand up. But as soon as numbers called he summons the energy number twenty three the best of all time. Shown duties at the hospital, but he's not sick or injured. What's scenario would cause this? What is he doing while at the hospital? Fuck is that question? I don't know. I. Tough one the hospital, but he's not sick or injured. What scenario would cause us doing? He was working meets an ER nurse. Oh table side service. And she's like, yeah. I work at what hall hospital, and so he just goes to hang out with her, but she's an ER nurse. So she's there's like a guy with like, a ballpoint pens to hand of his eye, and you should like trying to give fluids and shown these kind of hanging out like just awkwardly standing. There have been like, hey. It's doing do it off sick. I'm doing a twelve hour shift. This is our three. Can you get out of the way please GS w coming through? Can we do to you play? Can you play the nursing place on duty please shot? All right. I gotta play fucking the passion karaoke here. God. I I I I won't get real soundboard. But this is what happens. Okay. Going to wait. This motherfucker. All right. I playing on duty I guess motivation just trying to get in. Our fire while to seize of oh negative stat the music following. Following. All right. Coating over much of her car. Talk deal on me. This bad time or or what? No pulse. No breathing park. All right. I know I do. Tomorrow full line stole my God. Such a hero. All right. Seems like he's really enjoying this. Very often. How can I? You haven't seen me? I think there's an empty maybe an empty bed. We could find. I'm I'm sorry. I don't. Remember, remember the restaurants? I definitely don't. Okay. We have to table. Okay. I veteran. I had lifesaving ability. Track community. No, you have to leave. You really have to leave. Repayment you really have to leave. Repayment. All right being the nurse. All right. Good job. Good. Really good theater. I think you actor. How's it? Going boys listener Casey here to inform. You of a recent triumph a couple of friends, and I started a podcast. Don't worry. I'm not going to force a plug or anything. I just want to. Thank you both for inadvertently planting the idea to start one of my subconscious hears having my own monumental emotional episode ten that'll help or possibly hurt me in some way. Love y'all definitely hurt. Right. Definitely hurt a few ways. Yeah. For sure I we know we salute you and the only thing left to do is hit play or record. Don't hit play won't reporters. Hit hit the court. If you're using old timey take cassette player you wanna hit play to. Right. Do that. Don't you know, what the worst thing you can do is lose? Steam after episode seven it's called pod fade. Can't do it. Worst thing you can do is lose one awards right through power through. You know, we've done this awhile. We do know we do know what we're doing. And the, you know. Pump it. Hey asked to come on the show. We'll bring you on talk about your ship cross pollinate plug your shit. We can come on and take your shit over Bom. Play music. Instead like, it's not really what we called you. They go, you know. CD's? It was weird. That would be great just being a CD boombox, we stopped at last vestige and bought all their copies of the mini moods. Victims on our way over here. We just played us. I've run electric razor. I need to get ready for going out later. So cool. Serving that a lot of different purposes tonight. I think this is what podcast things like you think it's fun and games. But it's actually a lot of hard news, tons of hard work sons hard work, you were gonna feel like you've been working construction all day view fall into bed like a sack of potatoes with the weight of the world in your shoulders. That's what it's like. And then you have then you forgot to update your put the new episode on Twitter, and you wake up in a colts. Yes, that's happened. That's happened. More than a few times to put it on Adriaan, especially as my thing. I put it all up. Good were current. I love him and work. Let me do all that. I do the overnight drive perfect. I love that. I've got I've got the I've got the desk in one one overnight drive plaza. Andrew has the corner office where he has like, you know, surrounding yell and cocaine. Yeah, he's got some some Sonos speakers. He's got he's got a he's he's got like a hotdog oven. I would love it if we had a full office building. But we just occupied two offices. It's everyone else had a call the we're rich enough about the whole building. And then everybody has to call it one overnight drive plaza we to God should by that. Do you know when you drive out of all down new Scotland avenue there's that one weird office building that hasn't been occupied in fucking decades. I'm just by that and turned into one over. I drive plaza offer them any amount of cash for that building frigging there's buildings on Albany out the the glut the housing because the property taxes went insane. Like ten years ago the glut of event and how homes? And buildings. Five grave it. I couldn't believe it. When I was up there fucking it looks like season four of the wire. It's wild. Yeah. Like fucking trap the city. Yeah. Houses for five grand. Oh cheese. And they're just like, they're just abandoned. It's not like people went in there and like knock them down because they're not five grand. They're five grand, plus whatever fucking back taxes or just sitting there waiting for you. So they're like, yeah, they're seventy grand and they've been gutted by fire three times. Cool. Although the coppers been pulled out of the wall. Yeah. Really, really good million. Yeah. We should get a definitely get office building. One overnight drive plaza over he'll wants to help us with that make a sign one overnight. Dr posits gotta be really nice. The fucked up thing is if we had just squatted that office building. We it'd be ours. By now by I forget what the law is. But I think if you if you can. For ten years becomes yours. Not not according to the squatters they go put their story in the paper on the newspaper spots. Somewhere as a starting point fucking dunce. So one of the best I think those top ten best Albany stories of all time. And there's been a lot of them. That's one's ever where we Andrew. You accidentally hitting the microdosing harder than you wanted to is really funny to listen to it was fun to do someone getting higher that intendant generally something that brings me joy. But it sounded like you were in a good place and having time about it. Yeah. It was fun. It was. You care to talk about we are up to. It'll do basically asking what? So. Yeah. I do. I Mike rdo Silla Simon. I don't dose it out myself. So I don't know precisely how much, but I think it's like like point two grams or something like that some very very small amount. It's it's nice. I like it. It's fun. Like, I I just feel I feel much calmer and more focused and occasionally a little more tired. But it's it's good. I cannot be that person that fucking recommends people do this. If you've got like, a mental illness surfing, I part of me thinks definitely definitely should. But it's like a really heavy weird thing too. Tell someone to do. So I'm not going to recommend it necessarily. But like not gonna knock rat not recommend it. I think it's I think it's a cool thing. I don't sound support drug abuse. Yeah. That's all right. Let's sick that you don't do that. I don't I don't do drugs. Now. I don't let them do me other. Apparently, you do I really am a bad influence. You know, what if I really sit down think about it? Yeah. Ruined. My life update on my four years of not getting laid I decided to work out. It'd be more appealing to the eye will let you know how that works. You don't need to let me know how it works. It'll work just fine. I mean by all means keep us posted. But trust it'll work. I think that I mean, I'm assuming this guy would say, so I'm just assuming guess, but. You're still you saw the same head whether you're buff or fucking fat PISA ship. So like, you know, what though I think if you if you are if you can't do pull up to save your fucking life right now, and you work your ass off. And you get to the point where you can do pull ups you're gonna feel accomplished fuck and your wonder what else you can do in life. So I think I think it's a good move. If you can do pull up, you can definitely have intercourse with a woman to completion her completion for. Yes. And then yours much later. Maybe not maybe not at all. Maybe do go to the bathroom and do it instead. But yeah, getting again shape found the Tony not to saying look at me. I I'm with women. Does this women who come over? And I look that good at all. So. Have to get have it upstairs. And you just have to have it. You have to have that that you know, that red hot gas man, you just have to have that gas that gas is up too high. You wanna get no situation when you're with the woman rant Andrew? I know you you can back me up on this. You wanna get into a situation with with a woman where you have to say you have two both admit to yourselves the gas is up way too high. We've got to slow down. Yeah. Yes. I back that the passion is too much passion in this room. We need to open a window need to get drink water. We got to slow down we need orange juice in here stat Glasgow OJ that I'm just going to end up knocking over when I'm kicking in flam in the throes and the throws of passion. And then someone as always equalizer 'cause I did that once when I like, we we got beers we have beers. And then we kinda have sip the beers. And then really just started going at it. And I after word after the Lovin, I realized that both cans of tall cans of beer had spilled on my floor, and I had to probably the best acting. I've ever done in my life to not mad. Good job. Good job at myself. I would get mad immediately 'cause it was fucking cheap beer, and my room smelled a bar for what I did. I don't know what they put in the beer, but smells like a ball. You gotta take everything out of there. Mop the fucking floor like completely out, and then just well, the fucking Albany and all the houses have underneath the the would there's fabric like ancient fabric. It just soaked into that fucking ninety fabric just smell awful forever. But whatever it was fun. Just like, geez. We should have pounded those beers before we. How do I say this pound anything else? Oh, wait, a go. I really. It's really good to call me. The Hemingway of nonsense. All right. So here's the deal Hemingway. I'm fucking dying. I'm dying. I can't keep my eyes open anymore. I'm in flu game. I think I think I would out there. And I gave it my all. But it's it's it's Tim Richmond. That is NASCAR driver. Died of double. I'm not gonna die double pneumonia. I don't even have whatever the what what Jim Henson die of fucking tonsillitis thought. Even now, I don't I don't know. Oh. Throw strep throat voidable. I'm good. I'm wait good. I just got a little cold. But yeah, I gotta go to done be don't die. I'm not going to die. I'm going to be to get if you need to get married. You can get a my insurance. We can do that. Okay. That might actually have to happen. We'll see what goes on. If you name it affects you animal factory is is not the kind of spot where you're getting the good insurance. Oh my God. It's awesome. I after working in an office for so long where. People like send passive aggressive emails about meetings at didn't need to happen. All day. It is so fucking refreshing to work at a place where today to people just screen that each other in Yiddish. And then it was dead fucking love it so much. It's so fucking nice. Very good change of pace. Although. Yeah, very cool. All right. Well, what up to sixteen? I believe it is to sixteen cool. Very neat. We've done two hundred sixteen episodes. Yeah. I love it. You do you wanna plug rhetoric coffee or have we officially lost some of the spa as a sponsor once we turned. Right now, we still have them for now. Right. Pride of Oakland. Proud of Oakland, California and good news about the raiders coming back for another year. I'm sure but he's happy about that. Pride of Oakland, California rhetoric coffee dot com coffee's description service every two weeks coffee door. No muss, no fuss. Delicious economical and most of all great coffee movies in your house. In your face, go. Fuck your your far you go far. And also on Instagram older ghosts older ghosts. Do you like old clothes Andrew who doesn't quote? That's a silly question old clothes make the world go round. But getting the old clothes is the problem because you have to go to these Dinge dumps like savers and goodwill, and he makes you wanna barf and all the people you run into you wanna crush hope they all live in a flop house, and but. You have to Wade through all the crappy don't want to find the one thing you do. And then as doesn't have a price tag on it. And then you have to haggle. It's awful. So then just go to older goes, and they're jar friend Jesse. She's model and all the clothes if you're into that. If you're in a pretty ladies she's got a ton of pretty ladies model in the close. Awesome women jump in guys. If you want to buy your lady, a pretty pretty skirt or maybe a flowered dress, maybe a black dress for your funeral or whatever. Oh, there you go older goes on sucking baller move. You buy your girl the shit you want her to wear at your funeral. But pretty good. That's pretty good. If the keep it up sound really six you might be doing fucking four year, not laid guy. That's the there's something you could do just pick. A woman buyer close inside won't you to wear. This funeral guaranteed. You're in say. And Phil on some. Oh, absolutely. Savoy funeral foot my girlfriend. Listen, I. What if he's just like proud of it? And he's like folk Michael just wants to tell people the water cooler. Wait what show and what's up? What's up, Phil Fook, my girlfriend, Liz night? Okay. Cool. Well, you had that song where you're like. When I said, I fucked your girlfriend will girlfriend though, could you have met her. But that new then cough mission. They put in weird, isn't it? Whatever. Yeah. Fills weird guy. But he's the only person knows how to run see plus goddamn. And I really which we had somebody else. Besides Phil Anselmo who could fuck and program Salesforce for us. Fill in some of the swung person could do Salesforce, and the whole issue could fooding your leads properly. Also, I fucked girlfried listen I fucking failed. Good. Make sure you see ever Seve frequently. You're gonna lose all your league. Your leads or leads are getting out of the scope the projects at a scope. Screw-up missed the scrim this morning. Also, a foot, my growth and listening. Which wasn't so sick. I just go with Fillon sill IT menace of. Do we have do? We have film. Okay, jordan. Hey, jordan. What's up? Oh, how's it going just living? I'm living. You know? It's all you can ask for we have Phil. We have Phil. All right, Phil. What do you got for us? You good foot goof? Okay. I guess we're not close call now. Thanks. Conference call that has well that's really good to sixteen. That's it. That's all you get. Good. Sires? Control. Permanently. Obsession. Cloudy. Skull. Skillet. Personalized another person. And. Just. Object for pleasure instead of living. Seems to make this.

Andrew MCI Dahmer Jeff Jeff Dahmer Ryan Randy Weaver Twitter Michael Jackson New York Walt Disney Andrew Hitler Kurt Russell Skype Ryan van wick Kenny G G. Mike Tony Robbins Vicki Weaver Kearns badeah Aimal Michael Jackson
212: Don't Talk Just Listen

Overnight Drive

1:32:13 hr | 1 year ago

212: Don't Talk Just Listen

"Seaweed forms. Perfect on Twitter verified on Twitter. Now, he should be. I don't know. I want that blue checkmark. I want to get people get so fucking wound about blue check marks early strange. So I want one now how do we do that? It's like mailmen ID or something. I don't know easy. Right. I mean, I I I wanna get us off the legacy internet's didn't make a difference. But people who have the blue definitely shouldn't have if it's any measure of like. Fame or notoriety. Well, all right off to check mart. We don't know. We don't have anything. We're just here. This is here. We this is what life could be could be getting ready to podcast just sitting here like googling feels on Amazon my phone. This is what life like would be like if we lived in a boarding house that was only for women, but then we were forced to dress like when. In order to live there, and my name is Peter scholar and here, of course, Tom Hanks course in bosom buddies. And that would be excellent. It's a problematic. No, certainly not with their cross dressing and gender sister social construct. I guess it's just a property. It's theft genders genders theft, basically genders thefts. I kind of feel like I'm dressing woman in these sweatpants. Like, these are these are Unical if you're cool listeners if you're not fat. If you're that means you've got a Uniqlo near you. I know. Yeah. Of course, if you don't have a unique near you will it's time to move. Let me tell you brought to you by Uniqlo. No, they they have these. I guess they were like sleep pants, but they're they're really just like Uniqlo fifteen dollar swing at Lululemon. And they'll look at this. This is insane. Like this massive stretch here. Yeah. So so I kind of feel like I'm in ladies pants, right? My hands inside Andrew sweatpants, and there's so much room still. It's great. You still haven't found the goods. I have. I'm look I can't find the skin tag. Which is weird. Oh is that? What the oh, yeah. It's a big skin. Skin tags getting bigger. Sure. Sure. That as an all, right, April Fools. Oh, it's your that's your cocky. I. For the first time in over two hundred episodes. I finally this episode. I finally touched Andrews cock longtime coming voters the skin tag. And he fooled me God. All the more reason why we should live in a boarding house. Where have to dress like women? That's true. This boarding house is my mother's house, which is noon to basically, give me a hand job at my mother's, couched cool. I for all of us. Now, it's speaking of hand jobs while we don't want to get into that they Robert Kraft patriots. Oh, yeah. Talk about. Let's talk about it because it was just so. I only I just do one thing that is so awesome. I think it was great. The the the I don't know the sympathetic person may feel as bad for the women who are literally force gun point to work at those places. And they're not like, you know, how you know, girl. Everybody knows a girl who has a private Instagram or does some shit for money sucks for money hand girl is an SDN and is like a sex worker. I'm not talking about sex sort of talking about slaves sexless say they are sex workers, but they're sort of compelled to work by force. Yeah. I think that were we get lost that the term sex slave gets really lost in a lot of all the conjecture that goes on the sex slaves. Like, it's bad your promise, something like you people come to your country and say as you come here and work for me. It's gonna be awesome. I think the scam is that like if you're in Taiwan and your fifteen someone's like, oh, you can come to America and make like three hundred bucks a month. It'll only cost you, I don't know like fucking thirty eight thousand dollars US, man. All right, cool. It sounds great. I'll repay that loan. Then they get here. That's a that's a mighty big loan. The mighty big one. That's that's kind of how it works. Maybe that maybe Bob Kraft was paying off loans. Because I feel like Bob Kraft could have paid off all their student loans. I love that a six billionaire got caught on the seventy five dollar John ticket y'all's. I love that. All right. So we favorite part about this. Gabby grandmother lives. Oh my God. Balls thrown from carries cream mother lives at the spa, she rents a room. It's really cheap. Just ask questions. No. She lives so close to the spot. So I've been to this strip mall. So times I've eaten Taco Bell in the fucking parking lot of the Taco Bell. Right. That's the kind of place. We're talking about how the place where people Taco Bell in the parking lot. That's where fucking Bob Kraft was going to get fucking tugged off went to bell after he's like, you know, after a quick blow job from a stranger. I need Taco Bell crunch. I need to drive through the Taco Bell drive. Tugela drive through my white bent. Mclaren another favorite part of that was that they said one of the cops the police for it said that one day he showed up in a white Bentley. And the other the next day he showed up in a Brown Bentley. I mean, all right. Got so many cars, I had one of my clients was a he ran a very very famous chain of hotels in the eighties going real boomtime for them. Oh, yeah. Dude was like sue. I definitely talked about on the podcast like. Super rich guy. Rick for magnum. And then he like he has dementia and like his kids just robbed them blind, really fucking horrible cautionary tale to derive blind. I did not I might have been the only person that was nice to the students entire lake elderly life. I think he's still alive at Google that long ago, but he would always just sit there and stare at the wall and tell the wall, but how bad has been Lee was when he had a worse car I ever owned, and like I'm over here, you never mind. This talk to the wall. I'll never own a British vehicle again Oku 'cause I'll never own British over fucking old rich man in like a stained wife beaters talking at the wall. Convinced me, never by Bentley. If option comes up to me, so all right. There you go. Wow. It's like that. It's like remember that one Don the one mafia guy who pretended to be insane pen to have dementia, and then the found they had recordings of him ordering food and stuff. Yeah. Forget who was who's member? The is one of the last members of the Castellano gang or something like that. I don't remember. But it was great because they was like show him walking on the east village who. Oh, you know. Like in slippers. She's like doesn't heck lost all those capacities. But then the recordings is like yell put fifty grand on the Vikings to wet. Wow. Fucking good hustle manny's talking on the phone so much. That's it. You know, God. And he was ordering food from a restaurant. He owned you have people to do that. Right. That's the bottom line and all of this. Don't you have people to do that? Seriously. Yeah. That is a great bottom line for this grubber craft loves the love, the peewee Herman at the height of his powers got caught beating off in a very sleazy place. Right. Peewee Herman lake raw deal. Herman's like child friendly. Fucking whole thing was like that was. That was a bit of a red con because like he was sort of a sleazebag at first Hanley peewee big adventure was like kinda sleazy, and it was like a little weird, and then kids got into it and they made a kid friendly. And then that's. I think that was probably fucking beaten off and fucking jerk booths for years thing. That's okay. But it's the by me, that's fine. I mean, promote like go into sex trafficking voices and Grogan. But I just larger scale is like he has lots of probably had a decent amount of money. The time. This is between big top pee. We and our periods eventually big top. And like, so he probably had a bunch of money time Simmons, Robert Kraft and far be it for me to be a pocket watch her but goddamn goddamn like you have just like when an NFL star or rich person gets caught doing caught like with like severe DWI looks too drunk to like get in your car due to fall asleep in the drive through at Wendy's and shit, and it's like being like Jamal Lewis. Yeah. Range. Like, hey, you have somebody like I would never drive again. Here's the question if you're a billionaire short, actually, no one, no. Maybe we're looking at the wrong way. Like, if you're a billionaire. It makes sense coming from the perspective of like, a non billionaire if you're gonna pay somebody to give you a hand job. No God, you lay just say it like that. It's like oh. You like the dumbest the dumbest sex act because I could definitely I could just definitely do a better when you fly out like fucking skin Amax be actresses, right leg, you're a billionaire. But as I'm saying, this, it is current to me that it's very possible that going to fucking weird sex slaves spot in a strip mall might be its own aesthetic. Maybe that's what he likes. It's sleazy. It's the unknown. It's the sleaze he's doing a common man thing. You got some people build houses with fucking habitat for humanity. Robert Kraft goes and gets his fucking pud polled by somebody who got offered through Tijuana. Someone who arrived in the container. Thank God, you open that the air hold crush. Their whole as a ten thousand bags of coffee. I love I love our to have we have really good transportation humor like like logistics humor because the two people to two guys working in the warehouse right now just laughed because they're like, oh, we got. Yeah. They have a they didn't fill out there. What's that? Call the RFT then then fill out their their hazardous declaration is a more Bill. Lading kind of guy myself. Yeah. You didn't get your b I need that B O L. I need to get the no the tracking off that Beal well for the container full of women. Would you have to fill out a hazardous declaration for that? What what what shield would you put on that? Like, what would it be like contains human live mammals live mammals? Exactly, right. Contains live mammals you'd have to do FedEx air probably FedEx hazardous or FedEx air like it gets cold those planes. And I know God, why is there not an airline that their whole thing is, you know, we keep our cargo area warm. You can put you bring your dog. Dog air. You see this shit like that. Pit bulls malling some girl in the fucking Portland airport and whatnot like. Singer dog air singer was at the Portland airport coming back from NT rally, and he mauled a two year old girl terrain who's. Who's? Way Louis Laci apart it and miss the room so thrilled that fucking Mr. worldwide was there. That's nobody stopped him. He had the power of ten men and that day because he could do whatever he wanted including her child who never heard a tequila child. Right. Mr three. But the question was answered that day. This is a really good documentary like documentary like b roll I documentary scripting, we're doing. Who would have known who could have imagined that day who could kill a child such you cast day we found out. Day. Our questions were answered mister three oh, five did speaking of deaths. No. You know, what that's why we will one day will end up in the national broadcasting hall of fame once broadcasting's extended to podcast hod casting museum. I mean once podcasting kilter, so this is the thing I didn't realize make it rose noise. Sorry. Right. Still working on the second tonsilitis thing. So if you take a reasonably big size youtuber, and then you compare their viewership with CNN now, I didn't realize that big YouTubers consistently house networks not only consistently. But like. When somebody's when somebody has a million views on YouTube. That's a million measure people where he is like a million people viewing CNN is like a rolling average. It's like I didn't realize how bad those fucking companies are like in the sticks right now. Oh, yeah. So yeah. I mean, everybody underestimated the internet's very simple. I think that I mean, especially music companies we all know that went off to go into that. If you didn't if you don't know what a music company is. I mean, we never talked. The first victim the first real victim of the internet was fucking like vivid video or whatever the fuck. Like, they got nailed and then music video bike talking about porn company. Yeah. Then like forced to make music instead. Really good. Poland pillow. Last week. On the patron thing out. Really? This is what porn stars doing losing money. We talked about the phone number play. It. This woman. Probably like Christy canyon. Not really very good should ask. You should call chicane should Facebook a call on by. Now three like, hey, it's how the hell is this hoses? Kill all my killing your heart on right now, man. We got to go through and fines saying, I know. There's like tons and we had a find every fucking like eighties. Nineties porn star that has failed music career. Now, this fucking many John Doe the shoes to wind like heavyset real. Oh my God. Hell, yeah. Covering bad ballots. Yeah. John Doe hung himself part in part because he was of sucked male voices. Vana was dating a member of house of pain at the time. She is working on a music career. She those stories van is crazy because she got in a car accident because she was up for seven days, or whatever she was making ten grand a week is that point. God damn. Yeah. So she's working every day. So it was real. It was probably really steaming, you know, but she was working every day, and she was making like X amount per day. But she was making like crazy money fifty grand a month. Something like, I think a lot of people do that shit. They're just like I'm gonna do this for two you're gonna work. Every day straight like scenes a day for two years get out of fucking allocate twenty five percent, whatever I make like my mental health therapy for the next thirty years. And then I'm rock and roll. Yeah. Oh god. I think of all of the careers to money out from that would be like the easiest one. I mean, you don't have it. You don't have a choice on getting money out. That's it. You gotta like you got to walk into it with the plan or walk into it. And then like walkout fuck. I am broke and shit. And like we have to like give Robert Kraft. A hand job thing is like the industry is totally different. Now, there's no real contract players. It's just like, hey, I do this thing. And I ask young women to me at this motel hotel, you know, at the W on sunset, and then like, okay. Well, here's the deal. You know what you're doing? I'm going to pay you. And then you're going to act surprise when I tell you what the porn shoot that kind of thing like backroom casting couch, which I was horrified to discover was all premeditated guy, the K Faber so good in that. Like, no matter what. And it. Extends to right now to anything. That's dark is only going to get darker. Sure. And that's fascinating. Because you'd never you can never tell where the floor is more worse to anything bad as get worse. Oh, yeah. It's wild fucking says you pass backroom casting chair. Folding chair and see if they can you know, how they usually when he's feeling lazy. He'll just fuck on the couch when he's done a lot of shoots that day. He'll be like, you know, so you're prepared to make a thousand five thousand dollars a day. But she's on a wobbly folding chair from the sixties and then try to fuck on the chair. And if it breaks he gets really mad. I like I was gonna to need that chair all day this five more times to fucking break. Even backroom wobbly creaky chair. I feel like we're speeding towards the normalization of fake snuff. And that's what everyone's in fake. So we've been heading to there for a really long time. There's a guy. Yeah. This is a guy named Jamie Gillis who used to do that used to do all the fake snuff. And he wanted to do and Tom Byron member of extremists soci-, it's him in this guy, robs a car, and rob Sakari ended up going to jail because frontline did a documentary on them with this guy max hardcore, and they did a real rape scene. Very good. And the crew were so disgusted. They left with the girls before and they're like, but we love each other. And we're just going to do the scene, and it's all love, and then we're just gonna like afterward. We're gonna like shower and go shopping, but like they look very disturbed after where he just was obviously hamming for the camera and landed of landing in jail for two years, Tom Byron being very smart. Said no, I'm not going to be in the camera. I want nothing to do with us in not going to jail, but they lost their business. Anyway, extreme associates sounds like like cool tag team from like the mid nineteen nineties. Are you familiar with Greg the hammer Valentine? Yep. Absolutely. I when I really wanna upset Gabriella show or a photo of Greg the hammer Valentine she gets really like immediate revulsion with Greg the racist. Valentine. Chest because he had sold the be Madison Square Garden and wrestlemainia get sold, by slapping, my rock and roll, man. My manager to me heart. I don't take that lightly. You understand to cure dog? Me for the last time. Over fight. It by Tino said tenant selves little scheme to set me up at a garden, and it didn't work and now Boston Garden here. It is. This is the bait as far as soon as the bait dog to kit, you you nasty individual nasty black person the ring around what time cited fish. All right. Well, wow. Sure is a different world. Bucking fuck. God dang. It's almost like people could get away. We'll say shit like that. And then now you super can't even better world for I think it's time to cancel Greg. Valentine wanted to say when he's like, you nasty and lack person there's got to be there must be so wild tapes floating around archival tape of court testimony of some guys saying that RIC flair walked up to and said do you like your job, and whoa what really bad fuck like? It's just a bunch of dudes like fucking injecting testosterone into their neck and then taking cocaine and being like wild as you can see the outtakes must be splendid. Best part about those promises that all of them are done live. And so it was such a high wire act. It was lot live on TBS at four in the afternoon. I remember coming home and watching them live from the sport Atari, Atlanta, Georgia, and which was like in Nassau Coliseum mass. I remember where they say tonight, I'm going to turn this place into Nassau mausoleum. It was really good. But that was really cool. And I wish that more people at one time. I remember this is when we share Nassau Coliseum memories. Right. I remember my one of my uncles or maybe said, oh, you know, what? Yeah. One of my uncle said that they were Nassau Coliseum to see the scorpions and one of their friends, and he's like, I can't wait to see the scorpions and it kept saying school up little kid. And I remember what's wrong with that guy's voice. It's mentally ill some forgoing Howard Stern rules fan. Love the school up. E-ends the scorpions so good literate right down the street from Nassau Coliseum tonight. We turn this place into the NASA mausoleum. Hod times a my family speaking of like high wire acts and fucking like live shoots let shit. Did you sit down and listen to I know I'm going to say two names that we're losing much listeners been did you listen to that Alex Jones? No Rogan I saw and to people. I don't like listening to together. Definitely not impressive. How this dude booking goes off on one? I I listen to it might is driving around yesterday. And it was like, wow. Fucking a. This is this is next level. Dude is a an a plus fucking promo cutter dog on about Alex Jones. Yeah. I don't I don't think a lot of it's fair. I mean, I think he's really I mean his best is as made a brand that is so unsustainable because he has to maintain that level of energy offshore all the time. And there's only a matter of time while I was gonna say it's only a matter of time before he says the wrong thing. But he said a lot of that time has long passed. Right. We're at like fucking coronary. Now, I mean, it was just screaming and yelling the whole time. No, he did do screaming and yelling, but he would talk. He would do this thing where he would talk reasonably lucidly, but still like really like, and then he could ask a direct question. And then just skirt it do like a really awkward skirt. But then he would just fucking ramp himself. My dad worked furred so sorry. Sorry, midler Knowles, atomic power plant. It would go from reasonable to somebody told my dad this to cyborgs are real. And there's a body farm in China, that's growing tendons. Just like, man. It's. Impressed. I was nothing. But impressed by the time that she was done like holy fuck. All right. Cool are doing that. Should I get like really amped up and start screaming? Should I do this podcast standing up? Maybe I've done a few episodes like five through thirty or forty. I think I did standing there. Okay. I find getting feel like I'm doing business when a sit down on the desk, but I'm realizing now that the way I have the microphone now is way better than the arm. I have on my desk just should just use this. I was actually I wanna replace my arm to. Yeah. Yeah. We're just a little little inside talk. All you podcasters out. There know what the arm is. You know? By van is on fifteen bucks. And it makes you feel fficials not bad. But it's just like I think I'm over it. Yeah. This can this is much better. I real mic stand. If you look a man, I feel like I could do anything bossa. Now, do you feel about I've no thoughts about you being able to do anything fucked up? Not bad. Fucking play support. Listen to me. It's true. I heard. And then I'll relax and everything will be great. Girl. On Peter north final chimes in girl, man. Hey, don't call me that what a girl. Love it. You know, what Donald Trump had a speech? Should I we would you like to hear it? You're gonna play this shit and Harriet, let's do it. Listen to me. It's true. Okay. I heard you relax, relax. And then I'll relaxed and everything will be great. It was. It was just. What he said in front of three thousand sharing fans. No, Donald Trump's the first sitting president to ever say the word. What in the book? All right. So this is like his Mussalini moment for sure. Because he's swore the first sitting president to ever switch. I really yes. George Bush with fucking finger one. This is. No. That was that was like that was like that was feed footage that got leaked. Yeah. It's always been like. Yeah. Like, be world's true. Fucking was Obama was fucking called Kanye west some shit. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, there were talking to them like two men talk in what was inevitably hot mic somewhere. And he said the F word of Conair west, and whatever, but this is him in front of this is a president who's still doing rallies? Like he's running for president, which I love feel like he probably is the strap in. Trying to take you out with bullshit. Okay. His voice is really weird. He does very straightforward. Sounds like it's weird because he's doing what is really close to what L at Baldwin sounds like when he does an impression of him. I I wouldn't put it past him to be totally like I got. Okay. So to play that game. I'm going to sound like. I'm gonna play tweet each's. Bullshits for its both shit, folks. Ordeal chess, we're gonna break down the fifth wall. You say I've worked done years. You say say say any baby for my baby needs formula. You. My my father has been in turned driving. This turned into a prison camp evangi, Hugh, Hugh, Cuban Cubans are paratrooping into my my hometown. Do say, oh, you know, those fucking kids from red dawn have been all about Trump and other alternate universe. Whole that whole high school. From. In that movie, the one black. I am entire movie gets shot in the first five minutes. The teacher. Yeah. And the chances of teacher black teacher being in that that city Kelly met city. Here's a little unlikely. That's something to ask John Milius about when and one of his lesser movies. I guess he was really Milius was really popular for pockets. Bummer. She's a shot is shot. Apocalypse Now, Fresno were Coppola was Apocalypse Now. But he was he was like the cinematographer right now, I think he just he did script work. I don't think ever shot anything. Oh, yeah. He did script worked for pockets now. But then did veterans. Rated veterans seventy four living in Saint Louis. Really? You've got all that money and time many wanna live in Saint Louis. I mean, he's like dudes like fucking mad hick. One of us into any like, Ruby Ridge stuff. Oh, for sure absolutely lawn lawn. We Howrah Lon Horiuchi lawn and a big thing on are you cheat on when I researched Ruby Ridge for friend of mine, and then forgot to send it to. What is your life? Weird talking woman, and she's like, what is Ruby Ridge the American experience and make this local Jesus. But I was like, oh, yeah. Well, big the centerpiece of the whole thing is law, though, the trial of Lon Horiuchi and how he was acquitted even though he basically just shot through a door and kill the mother. Yeah. I mean, he he was shooting for a baby. And he missed is basically what happened. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. It makes you wanna buy. Whereas now, I know one knows he could live next door from you know, how much if you didn't want to go knock wild as lon- here. Depends asking. This thing where you've got women asking you what Ruby Ridge is. This is the reason why we need to do this podcast better. And reach out to Randy Weaver and get Randy Weaver in the whack pack. I could tell you what Ruby Ridge is or home. My main man knows at home doing nothing and have in have Randy Weaver. Explain his life to you guys. The first date of bumble ear like had a nice rest of your Knicks wine bar opening night opening night and fucking foods coming out as great you sprung for like sprung for the tasting menu. And then you get Randy Weaver on FaceTime, except he won't use FaceTime to go through a satellite. Uplink now. I don't think he has the internet and he does heavily VP end. So I would really listen this everyone listening. Yeah. I know I'd be like platforming racists ad be like platforming somebody who's like with really not cool view. I get that understand like some you're gonna cancel me that I I get it. You know, it's it's fine. We look at the world differently. I guess in that way. But I would love to get Randy Weaver as gas podcast, it'd be it'd be whatever shit. We would be so worth it just to do it. Oh, he's done interviews like total Hicks on YouTube, and they have views. We've never explored the idea of going through somebody else to get the book rights. Wow. Interesting. That's I think have all the guests. We could have on the centerpieces really are Bograd, so great Andy Weaver Weaver. Rush, Scott Irish be phenomenal. Cry. If we I don't even know if he's alive cry. We've got Scott Irish, I just all I wanted to do was go to California for a week dedicated week with Tom Byron and try to find Scott Irish wherever is that would be great. If I got California found out he lives in like, like, burn Louisiana Lewis is somewhere. Okay. We're going to Louisiana then. But yeah, finding Scott man, God if somebody could just bankroll the documentary for me that would be amazing. Anybody? Great pitch. A you know, what was I gonna say? You're gonna say now there is courtesy wa Vida. He was on. I've tried. I couldn't get close kazillion news there, and every he was I ten minute walk from my house doing this frigging green red berets shit. Guardian angels. And no one wanted any part of it, which was sad and kind of funny. He was coming. I told you it's coming back from his honeymoon. How cavern? Really sorry, babe. We gotta make a left instead of right? Yeah. Exactly. Oh in Bernie Goetz to got. Although Bernie guesses like a radio show or some shit. So I think he does. He's just really he's like a really pro marijuana guy. Yeah. You realize that all these like all these guys are going to want to sell something for sure. Well, new strain of Bernie Goetz we that. I'm gonna wanna talk about. That's how people like Geoff Tate had his want his vintage of wine. Jeff. How does wine you selling wine at some point? It'd be the same thing. We'd be like, oh, I've got this new the cell. Randy Weaver's selling like, you know, like the alternate outdoor pants. Go the waterproof pants. I wish I had when I was under siege by the FBI, siege pants. I wish I had. I was covered in my wife's blood. All right. Speaking of color fast. Fest, blood resistant, blood ridges and bulletproof. Awesome. Here's how we're going to do it. This is all right. Everyone's gonna everyone strap in everyone's going to be a part of this. Everyone listening you're in on this. So we're going to continue to do overnight drive. It's gonna come out every week because we've been we've been fucking good out kudos to us or put one out every week for like three straight months. Want to buy a cookie or a cake? What the hell's happening going? Okay. So we're going to do overnight drive every week the same overnight drive that you know, in love, then we're also going to do another podcast, which is basically just overnight drive. The exact same thing. No format. No, whatever. But it's going to be entirely. Survivalist problematic style content, but it won't be much different. It'll be very similar to this. It'll still be like a jokey he haw kind of fucking thing. But every now, and then we'll just talk about sovereignty allot instead of Robert crafts, dick. We'll talk about lake Janet Reno's, dick. So we'll do that for a while. And all you listening to be in on it and get the joke or else or else. Yeah. So we'll come up with some codenames. It'd be. Fuck would you say last night loud? Love you can be loud of an I'll be fucking. I'll be mad dog loud mad dog. It'd be great. We'll do that will will stenciling will be broadcasting from beyond a VPN like from a bunker somewhere. And that's how we're gonna get these guys. We're going to do a secondary survivalist themed comedy podcast. And then that'll be that. So everyone everyone listening you can be on this now. What is still secretary marks? Kenny G. Right. I love that idea. I was just adding installs adding any emotional music to really build it up. All right. So we'll survival cast coming soon viable cast coming soon. The trick is then when you have like your fucking friend who won't list overnight drive because we Randy Weaver on warranted. It's it's not overnight drive. He was on. Being luck. Yeah. He was on loud. Low of he was on the fucking ramblers who's on who's on. Bo is that you. Boese you. Yep. We'll have to figure out what the name of that. Militia that Timothy Timothy McVeigh was a part of the second take the name of the CB jacket and cammo and tight, gene. Armie because that opens up a whole new world to us bow fucking wild three percenters on basically, what I'm asking people is if you're going through tunes, and you find another podcast that sounds a lot like us, but they're talking about some real wild shit so Kay. Just relax just going to be called go with it. Right. It's going to be called. When requests when customers refused to pay. It's going to be called emergency no flop landing. That's really good. It's going to be called, you know, what should be called. So her locker. I just wanna do a barrel. Roll. That's it. There you go. I totally forgot about our ours planes deland, dude, I really hard for. I've got a backpack that has velcro spot for like morale patch, you know, people putting fucking punisher skulls or whatever fucking said bullshit. I looked far and wide for morale patch that was just the fucking plane in silhouette. So there's people making things like it. But the dice. Oh, my God that dude in those stolen Seattle plan sky king. I'm just a broken guy. You know, I don't know. I really felt that was it there when I just wanted to kind of a barrel. Roll right now. So good. Unbelievable. Good. God. No, this is the this is this the guy. What is he doing? This is the go. From the from the ground. What in the heck living off the Puget Sound Ned Flanders somebody worked at Boeing for forty years or the Microsoft, well does he think he's doing? Come really close. Businesses of yours Jerko what your pilot's license. All of a sudden, silly Salamon burger Jesus love sky king, which she gets Selley sewn burger on the survival cast get them on the battle role podcast you're on the barrel. Roll Bowral learn how to say barrel. Roll that's one of those words that I like my mouth doesn't want to create a barrel your balance one where like L colo- coup colloquialism fluke loyalism that when I can do I can cook. Yeah. You're you're onto the barrel. You're on the barrel. It'd be great assaulted songbird got on the the ba- we're going to call the battle role as the name of gets works me. What is it would be really solemn burger was on the barrel. Roll because oh, I thought this was a this is a flight podcast realized what you guys were about. We're about it. Yeah. That'd be great new k sell your on solely. How do you treat your heritage back to? Listen to me bullshitting your risk. Forming. Now, we're into it fucking place apart. That you remember when they play the cockpit cockpits transcriptions from when he was on. We're going to the Hudson. This is what they edited out. Ax and everything would be great. And then he's like were about to go into the river. What we're about to go into the river. Mike. Mike's open sully now, he's watching porno, John Doe porn. That's what really happened. So those bird strike. May we can do some really good conspiracy content on the barrel. Roll. Oh, I love my OJ Simpson. CT we really fucking happy. But it doesn't know the OJ Simpson was CT suffer. And that's what caused them to kill conspiracy barn, but his father, and this is why available on Wikipedia, and because it's been confirmed and everything Cincinnati was a a really well known drag Queen in San Francisco. And ended blew my mind and handed of dying of as in the eighties. His father crazy and for guy with that much hubris Machiko that probably really fucked them up with the we call that baggage. Yeah, we call that a lot of message and not defending OJ Simpson by any means, although a brilliant comedic actor which we've established especially I refi referring to the first naked gun. Oh, my God, I referred to that one of the one of the greatest scenes ever. And. But you know, should we? All right. All right. Hang on. Should we retool the barrel roll? And then just just get controversial people's. We can get OJ Zo. Jay's not coming on the second the white survivalist podcast. No, definitely not. Definitely not. Fucking like, there's no you don't get OJ without a few thousand dollars. Always always. Now. Oh, that'd be too much. He's man. All right. Okay. We'll stick with the what if we do like interviews sort of like what if he's signing. What is like a card show? They don't have card shows. Autographs. Do the sure as hell Nakhon OJ OJ edgy when I love to fuck fucking steal sports memorabilia, you wanna come to a whole fucking. You wanna come the Jacob Javits center? Hey, we're to kind of the sports zone at the mall. They want to sign these bills jersey looking for like a wildlife -bility, maybe you can come in fucking raise our premiums. Probably do it. They can't leave. This can't leave the state of Florida or Nevada yet make money in an anywhere, but Nevada and Florida because of the any money has any he can any money makes their anywhere else will go to the Goldman family because the law civil suit to them those scheming, Goldman family mean Goldman's gone damn what was wrong Goldman that cool. Probably not now is like a really cool pin me of cool guy. Google bad things. Ron Goldman did. Yeah. People are I p Miller, you know, actually, the bungled wasn't that cool. He was on a dating show. Yes. It was really good. But yeah, actually secret tape of Ron Goldman that has really been surfaced until right now. Yeah, I got it right here. And just the race yourself. True. And then I'll relax everything will be great. Run run respect. And that I got that footage that recording was released during the trial. People have turned on OJ different OJ would've won. My watch is telling me I need to deep breathe for a minute. You wanna you wanna take the podcast for a minute. I'm going to sit and breathe. That's fun. Like, sit at home. Right. I think about them the weirdest stuff that not really weird stuff. But you think about things that you've heard in your life that suddenly come right into your mind for no reason? Yes this morning. I thought you're only thought you were breathing. Oh, well this morning. I thought about any fucking watch tell me what to do. All right. This is the fucking mad dog here. Oh, okay. Man. We get it. Right. You were going to be like, all you. You'll come down. Then I'll come down. It'll be fine. But see your wanna do a barrel. Roll. Yeah. Let's fuck the girls men just like the girl now. Fuck the watchman. So I was in the show was in the shower this morning, and I was thinking of for whatever reason John Heche member test. He told a story on I think Pia episode of pm magazine, which was something that used to come on after the news during the week. And my parents would watch it this guy. Gary Collins was the host, and he'd also I got in trouble for because there was a carry-over segment on karaoke and the guy singing karaoke into the microphone said give me some beer, and I immediately emulated that and kept saying give me some beer. Gimme some beer, and I was probably like five years. And my mother said you can't say that stuff saying that my father was like. Give him a beer. Don't you? Give the beer too late to late sips a beer when I was like a total little have. Have whole early ten sips now it's like a peer into like. Well, I would be as dad was wouldn't be very good. I bombed be it'd be fun. I always add to be a fun dad, but I wouldn't necessarily be good because I like all the funds as like, hey, let's go to Burger King. Let's go hang out looking son or daughter. I always think about that. 'cause I'm like, yeah. I'd be. I'd probably be a fun dad or I may be like a weird strict on foreign -tarian but that in barrel. Roll words, I can't say, but no matter what when you have a kid you don't sleep for two and a half years. I heard. Yeah. Fuck that. I don't know. What if I don't sleep for the next two years? I'm not gonna tell you what I'm gonna be like in twenty twenty two no idea. I had a friend who had. When I really want friends anymore. I had a friend who a friend who had a young daughter who was very cute. But my friend was tire always very tired. And she was a hard worker, and she would she like worked full like, you know, worked fulltime job and everything, but it's just really tired all the time. And I thought that actually when we were hanging out like what because I know that I've read about sleep DEP. And like, I always go to one and wake up at six. So I'm like always like in some sort of sleep deprivation, but imagine that. Yeah. Like, it was like this person's probably sleep DEP to the point of like mild insanity to really trying to hold it together. But when not only. Yeah, you're totally fucking sleep-deprived. Nothing's making sense let shit, but then when you were awake your anxiety levels are probably through the fucking roof. Now, of course, because it's just like it's been quiet for ten minutes. What what is my kid into? And then you go like fucking. Can pull the piping out from under the sink or some shit pulled the pipe out. Awesome. Oh my God. My child is a pipe, and it's not a good pipe. It's not a pipe. It's not one of the pipes that belong under the sink. It's there's there the pipes. And then I looked behind the pipes. That's where I found the pipe and God damn if I didn't see pipe and do not want to know what what you do with this particular by. First of all you put marijuana in it. And then you light it. And then he is like a glass. Hi my kid bought at shining star. Star the head shop in Albany. Kid. I had a corncob pipe. That to me. Did you have a button nose into is made out of coal? Maybe that's why they gave it to me to put on the. Vividly. Remember having corn Cup? All right to get mystery after get great. Oh filters Mr. Grado filters. Hate fucking smoking's. Disgusting. You had we went to the bar last night. Dudes walked over to say, hi, and he smells like smoke. And I want to punch him in the side of the head was so gross bomb should people. Just give on one of my. I think smoking's fucking gnarly. I'm sorry. I know we're fucking hemorrhaging listeners. Like, we're talking about things if you smoke, you know, smoked yes summer, and it was like if you smoke you now super gnarly. It was like the worst one of the worst car smell like could smell myself in open air, smell myself, totally fucking miserable. Again. I think one of the reasons I stopped going out altogether and became weird hermit is. Because like I just won't be around people smoke when you can't do that anymore. No smoking or people who just smell like smoke. Yeah. Yeah. Before I remember when people to smoke in bars, it was the worst thing ever on. And it was just normal. It was like, oh, yeah. Well, this we're gonna go to the place where people didn't. But that's just how we're going to deal with it. I grew up in a very anti-smoking households. And when I would say over there pitches house. As parents smoked and my father would put up such a fucking frightful fit about how smelled when I come back to the former I think he might have said something, but but the amount of secondhand smoke. I n hailed as a young kid was probably pretty bad because both boys both beach boys always had sickness air infections, like sinus, infections, the like that. I still my father smoked knows it can I still like get every now and then get like bronchitis or some bullshit like I used to get every year. Religiously one thing I noticed that since I stopped working at the chemical factory. My voice is coming back like I'm full voice right now. And it's feels really good because I inhaled so much mica. And like it was so dry there. All the time that my voice is be like the last episode. You hear me I'm just like really scratchy voices, really high and Senate like fucking Juno from Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice? Wow. This reference K mart and be in the in the movie Beetlejuice belie special. That's right. Does that right? Little cultural cross cultural thing, I wonder how KMart felt about that. Okay. To dimension Kamer still exists. It's got to be gone now. It's gone. All right. What what I'm saying? Though is fucking cool. Yeah. I don't wanna smoke them. And I don't wanna be around new if you're smoking them. But like. Pipes are neat. Neat concept. Seeing what's the Gars? I don't ever want to smoke as gar all watch them. Roll us gar all damn day. It's wild you go to fucking net. Spot in the Bronx, people just hand-rolling cigars fucking a very cool game really like well made hand rolled cigar with fresh tobacco there. There's no no chance like I. Wound fuck around any of it in any capacity. I think and plus I think the time of looking cool smoking cigars has gone stood us at a bar, and it was like sixty three probably like pull it off. And no one cares. Remember there was a trend where women would smoke cigars outside of bars. Remember that young women like twenty five thirty five. What's what smoke cigars at the cool thing to do especially in Canada, really weirdly and just kind of moved its way down here in Albany. Of course, like all right? As long as we're being problematic as long as fucking swinging for the fences. Probably just in general, really, you know, we're we're we're exploring the fuck and edges of it. Watching a woman smoke a cigar. Really? He's about as appealing as watching them woman. Use a chemical toilet. Like it sounds fucking horrid. So really? So, but if you watch the news a chemical toilet, you get to see the bottoms before she sits down and she's sitting down there with the ball. But as a chemical toilet. I know. But I would rather do that than hold a associates has number two. I'm not saying women can't use chemical toilets. And if you have the option to sing that watch a woman use a chemical toilet or not what you woman use a chemical toilet, which which way you had it here which way the wind blowing. Well depends on. Jewish the wind. Blowing is a very important. Vindication. I would probably I would be pro her using it. But I think that when people get tipped over while they're inside chemical toilet. So mean door door down is really fucking funny. I do love when chemical towards blow away there's footage of shit spray. Geysers? Oh, there should be. There has to be compilation of people getting dict with when they're inside a porta potty my guy. I mean, I've never found the end of the YouTube compilations just just googling like you to come relation of like snow falling off roofs. You'll be for half an hour. Never see the same shit twice. I love it. I there are there are many if you're into like festival music festivals. There's many accounts of people fucking and porta-pottys that worked up like you needed that bad that you can't wait until you get to your nice house or even the car you have to be like, oh laid between between fucking MGM, tea and LCD sound system. We're going to have have seven minutes of a horrible arduous fucking post-apocalyptic sex. That's very close to post. Fucking on any little milk and cranny can be like, oh and people are pounding on the door because everybody's the piss and shit. Gross. And then for the woman, if you're behind her probably the only position that really make sense in that thing she's looking down at blue toilet paper shit floating in kiss IRS lost. Yeah. So really she can just lean forward impute when she's. To grossed out. And then he'd be like. Wow. It's a kind of a dumb, dude. He'd be like, oh, she's supposed to be really into. It is losing control of functions. I mean. I've been some really horrible places on earth like a fucking porta potty in the sun in a m- at a music festival. I got a parking lot of music festival. I nine hundred of them lined up ready for people to piss shin. He'll words fail me. Yeah. I think that's like fucking get like enlist fucking Khalil Gibran fucking write a poem about how fucking horrible. That is. Like, I I can get there. Khalil gibran. I my mind. Sorry. Because I thought and then I fought for a minute that you were talking about a good Bron Hamdan. The who was the backup quarterback for Matt Hasselbeck in two thousand five on the Seahawks. Also, a very underrated poet as an underrated poet on. And off the field. Chemical toilet in verses of Rumi. God go, Matt Hasselbeck? Saul mad is what's wrong. Are you ready for the game? He's real-. Why not why big game coming up versus the Orlando, streakers, whatever the buccaneers, right? Well, it's a long trip. First of all second of all. I saw good Braun Don having sex in a porta potty last night. Why do you never had sex in a porta potty? We'll know. Oh, you haven't lived got it try to have a positive. You know, what we're going to need you to do. We wanted you to study a bunch of tape for this game. And really be good at it scrap that in try this totally different way. Yeah. Pearl Jam and presents the United States America. Applying a free concept tomorrow. Downtown seattle. There's going to be about eight hundred porta potties line. Many take misses the missus down there. And well, you know, two people do when they they love each other very much. What do you mean? Do I have to spell it every scouting report? It was right. You to really have to spell everything out for you. Fuck. All right. You have to have intercourse. I mean sex while breathing entirely gaseous piss and because the ATL it's raining. So then he's like he comes back the next like it comes back the next day to the the Seattle Seahawks compound, all refreshed and ready to go as well. Let's he's held on never you again coach and they high five and then the the credits roll my my girl's hand slipped. She fell into the fucking chemical sludge. Yeah. While she. Shoulder. She and presence. And she was mad because she missed the presence of the United States America opening said my God they played lump. And she wasn't there for it. But. Then he made it up I made it up. But would it be really when he was really worried about was that he felt compelled actually use the porta potty. And sometime. Yeah. So like, you know. You're watching wrestling with YouTube over here. So. Honey, the concert starting hold on. Find out of the how weird. Sister sister. Oh, sister sister. Wow. Honey, honey. Okay. Oh, he'll. Oh, sure. Gross in hair, isn't it. Yeah. Let's go chop rapid up tell show. You know? What's interesting somebody when that album came out thought that was the best thing that ever heard. Oh, yeah. It's wild. I put them up there with like the bare naked, ladies, here's people love that. I had a roommate who was super into the bare naked ladies. Wow. Really really into it into their b sides. Yeah. Yeah. Like fucking a dead head for fucking bare naked ladies, people L head this a big crossover with the jam band community and bad in like bad pop music. Yes. Woo. Because I was really, unfortunately, I do sound for scribbled cover band locally over the summer and never had that experience before fucking awful. I'm never do it. And then there's the poor dude who got stuck doing every weekend every week is like begging people on our sound guy chat to take shift, and where do definitely not no. Guy chat. Damn now. It is a chat to be like, hey, this is new broken. This is broken. Hey, any of that shit? Any of that shit meat is fucking making it work just during iron. We'll make it work. I don't know. This is one dude who always thinks cables are broken, and I was not broken not broken test that that's not broken thought. It was broke. You know, you guys can just by twenty dollar cable. And then problem south, no arguments cable. Cable. Now, broken do big. Minute it on the problems. They're all broken. No. I think that's what it is. They just doesn't work or whatever like left it on mute aren't wire. Pretty good. So we just jumped around a lot of different subjects that was. There was the lightning rounds. John tash, John. You're fine. I am I am. I was in the shower this morning, even though I music on the showers sometimes, and when I know that either my roommate's up or nobody's home because vacuuming vacuuming out of fucking sink, which while that got a lot of mileage I knew that was going to be a hit. I can just tell it was awesome for me. Because guess what happened after? Or to help vacuum at the same. No, no. I just had to hear it. Worse than ever. And it was like ten minutes. I don't get it. I never get. I'll never get it. But I was thinking I was remembering that John tash had did a story pm magazine. And he said, I wrote the theme song for the NBA on NBC. While right after he said right after he made love to Connie Celica. He called his own voicemail and sung it into his voice mail. You wouldn't forget it. And he says Reiner was right after it. But he was really intellect saying right after making love, and I thought, wow, that's like a unnecessary detail. I thought I thought that as a kid I remember seeing a one hundred percent. I'm kinda goes probably like nut ten no. I got it. Got it pretty down people will fucking up kids. You know, like, whatever does fuck for fun. I'm not totally hundred percent. Sure. What happens? But I'm definitely like think that there's a lie. There's some things that you shouldn't say on PM magazine with Gary Collins, it seems like a weird thing to bring up here in this pm magazine forum. But he's like, yeah. I remember when Richard Marx set some sort of record. Oh, he played like one song for to promote his new album. He promoted he played like like four concerts in one day hazard six times. He played leg. Right here waiting did like four concerts in one day or something. And they said, Richard. What are you going to do now? And he's like I'm going to go home and make love to my wife. Nice. Very good. But he was he's complaining how exhausted he was. So like if you're that exhausted. She's probably at home been like, no don't do any favors. Men. Hazard is not in there fucking top songs area. There. It is. All right. We're. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for coming to this press conference guys. I. So I'll take the first question. So how long was it like buying four concerts in one day? It was really really tough. Pine song hazard over and over again playing this for two weeks straight gentleman the front with the glasses. I would like to us to question to you, Richard. Who has the famous music star. Hey, would like just know what what was it like to play? Fame unless you're famous for point four shells on one night. And and oh serve you turn your phone off. Please it's making a lot of men from the future in the Bronx. Someone else. Someone's the the guy from United Press International stands up, and he says, Mr. marks no offense, certainly we're all here to see you, do, you know, this is and he's like, well, no I've been playing musical day. And he's like, well, this is Ryan van wick he's very famous White House correspondent, and he's been doing some freelance work, and I don't know where you were raised. I don't know how you were raised, but we show re ultimate respect for him. And honestly, we don't care that you played forbade songs today. And and then he turns around to the rest of the reporters, and he says, I think we're at a here, and then everyone stands up and leaves. And he's like, Wayne, wait, I have to tell you my big nugget. I feel like making love to my wife. Oh care. Don't care. Draughts right. I realize fucking asshole marks is a fucking asshole, Mercer Marx's turns out if a fucking asshole, but Wecker and. From Ryan van wacko and go to say, I've been looking forward to this for a minute. You know, as you know. I know Andrew feels about this Amar Khalas from talk talk was one of my favorites of all time, and I begged, and I pleaded this is the first this is this is the first time we've made consistent contact. Yeah. Consistent contact. There are other listeners listener Tyler also talks to him, very cooler. Very cool got cooler very cooler as a Vikings fan, but I won't won't hold that against them. But he was also gonna round Fenwick and also. Talked about this. But. I like to think that might tweet at him about wanted to do something about Mark for Mark Mark Hollis, and then ran van wick few days later. Let's roll the tape. Speaks for itself. Talking about us in the beginning. And it's like. It's like commuting. It's like, oh, yeah. Oh, totally Andrews jerk off motion. Believe me the person. The person. As a guy that follows me on Twitter. The singer and songwriter died a week ago has name was Mark Hollis and he was delayed cigarettes. The talk talk ever took. And it's not abandon them from with because I'd never heard of until guy. Guy was sixty four years old born January fourth nineteen fifty five. Of the nineteen. And of course, you grew up in in in hamming limb. And he saved success success commercials. A-x-i-o-s in critical claim in the nineteen eighties tonight when he was the fan. Home. Hey wrote rooms. Songs for the band and also to the two most songs that they're known for as it's my life and less what you make it. All those other songs. They're known for. Somebody getting less twelve that they did which was called spirit of eight alive in stock. Early work which album state. They did they did like influence from jazz, folk and classical experimental music. Eighty two. Return to connection. Solo career. Beautiful. Love him. Let's see here. Hymns the lead singer of talk talk weighty one the ninety two. People said that they praised for his voice. For your. Please phone do your work. Since they. Sixty four. Repin history right there. The rip cast rips elevated the entire. Says the he's saying ninety two with the with a couple of bands and then in nineteen ninety eight he went on a solo career, then he retired at any return. Singer again. But people said they liked his voice. And that's what that will be know about him. I would actually have to listen to other songs because I'm like, I said, I don't know who the band is. That mentored him. Says he. Two rollers one hit an older brother in a younger, brother. Long as he's ever gone. Hollis was. I hope every time I drove a hundred bucks into the school, which is a defunct grammar school in one in England and wanted to Clinton quit pursuing education before he completed something a level, which I'm sure what that is in another. He said he had taken a course in child psychology at the university of Sussex, but dropped out after a year and a half. Before music career took off he worked in a factory, and as a level toy technician. I banned that Mark formed was called the reaction which the band to two years nineteen seventy seven to seventy nine. Came up with how they came up with the name talk talk for the second band was because he will talk talk talk. Eventually. Go you that one? So. Yeah. But he considered to be historic that. He's saying considered to be new wave of the year. Yes. Stuff that I know are not stuff. I'm familiar with will send you. The records doesn't give of death. But it says that the colts reported by his cousin give him. Just give him patriot. Oh shit. Our? Well, fuck it here. We are. I can't do anything told up. Wow. That was worth the wait, Mike lake. Right. Holy shit. Yes. Can rip Jon Rao elevated best fucking Ryan van Wyk video in a minute. Fucking a. And because we asked which is the most beautiful get ask for things in this life. I guess reach out and you reach for the golden ring, and you grab heart onto it. And then you get this when you reach for shit happens. It's so fucking good. God our favorite user personality. Ever. I don't care who. Did something that we may. Well. We hope to create beautiful. Aren't you kind of feel like I feel like I'm a D right now. I feel great. It makes me feel so good. Any never heard talking is gonna listen to talk talk now to we might even get cool break, his brain pulling art school girls. He's like, oh Ryan it's so hot I'm gonna take pride in she'll polar pants down a bunch of. Great. Me back calling the night. Boy, again, call him my boy, it was not one of their major hits seventh on the second record. Fuck fingle of it's my life. I'll I it wasn't a big hit. Uh-huh. Getting blown and write those. When he when he comes. He goes. I'm going to come zoo gets vibrator, and that's it goes like. Ooh. That'd be great. Right. What is the vibrator that is asked the noise and he's on chatter bait and. Goes. That's what it is. I think. Ooh. Oh, yeah. God. I'm just an awe of RV w right now are men really really bring it home. Here's another one. I had one about the general that Mona from who's the Boston? Yeah. About that. Don't talk jobs once. Another thing that people really liked the weepy voice kit killers, great trails love some. Said killed again. I'll never make it. Loan. Real. Stressed out on one writer. Crew over. Are. After the fourth one of these Bill. Yeah. Go ahead of yourself. Ben Affleck, man. Calm down. From what? Please. Machine. Tell me what happened. See? Though, she died last week when they just pulled up now says actress Katherine Helmond died. Over her roles on the TV show, who's the boss, the TV shows, soap, and that team showed that I always change the name of it. But I call it. Everybody hates Raymond cause was not a funny show. Wow. Holy fuck. Oh my God. Everybody hates Raymond because I've never liked that fucking show. God rival for president. Welcome stupid. We have Satele after each. Yeah. We've been talking about about a year now at least make the fucking very west. I'm so afraid I at this point I'm afraid that he's going to kill himself. Oh, everybody who's talked to me in the past year because he's too fucking jokers have been clowning on me or reclining at this point. I admire him. I mean, I hope he never changes. I don't think. So. I mean now, it's gone. It started as clowning for sure. But that was because one rip video and we're like, whoa. This is way fucking better than any of these other shlo- first appearance we had to go back. The archive was on the fucking guy from. Oh god. That new metal band the guy who died, Chester Bennington. God was that long ago? Right. Damn. All right. He fucking. He did a rip, and it was like a whole the rips were super pathetic for that. He was in what puddle of mud was the Lincoln park like impart impart and he worked at a funny rip. And we're like, oh, this guy's kind of interesting. And then we're going to let it let it I kept seeing when I was doing rips hot and heavy we did a for I kept seeing his name because it'd refer everyone. So he's in the mix along with Gulf Coast and raging rom other people, but then they fall off to the wayside. I think I think is in jail is that right? Fuck only be one. Anyway, I like the Gulf Coast video where he pan and those there's a crib. His room. That was really scary. But then suddenly the cream rose to the top. And we're like this is much better than anybody at this. And then try to incorporate him as much as possible. And then I would the scenario where do became very famous and dating wreath. People love that shit. But this is Ryan van Weck with new lighting. He's he's like a bottom bought a new lamp target. Yeah. We'll have to ask Amazon's lots of what this is called because it's like lighting that's from the bottom up instead of top down flattering. And it's he's a, hey, I say, he's a handsome guy. But not. Yeah. Maybe this isn't the best lighting for him. But here we go. I call it. Everybody hates women. Funny show. It was stupid head hundred four going up until whenever. Starting. I think she was playing twenty mother on the TV show. I was called wine of morning, which was released in nineteen fifty five. And then they had number. We believe in a hospital. The news a whole bunch TV shows a Larry HEC Ramsey. Dr max was a movie the snoop sisters, which was a TV show. And then there was a movie that she did in nineteen seventy five called the family. Nobody wanted. Scream, then they did about James dean's life and Sunday six and she played his movie. The noise ran for four years and eight. Title. Don't talk. Just listen. Just listen. There's one hundred ninety six the TV of the TV show who's the balls which ran for eight years, and she was on a whole hundred ninety six. He also made a movie about Elizabeth Taylor back in nineteen ninety five. She also appeared in that one. About soup. It'll. Please burp. One and two. There's a movie called collaborator. She did tells of eleven than she did cursory less. What we did last year was Franken Evo she that was back until eighteen. In up. Sure damn about with the says, she would have been ninety shift until July. Eighty nine. The stolen bed. That. Wow. Mic drop Bom. Amazing wonderful movie. Roles is still not bad bomb. God, you know, can love him so much. Unbelievably this is this was gone. I mean him belching was the greatest moment. But as as other really good moments, but you gotta just fucking you got to catch outsider art where it exists. Many can't create it. I can't and the best definitely the best art. You can explain. Yeah. I think really if you have a commute if you have a band, and you can't really explain what it sounds like, you just know. It's good. Then it's art good. You know, it doesn't sound. Oh, this sounds like forgotten. What? No, that's not art. That's just music. It's different. This is art is the same thing with Ryan van. I can't explain why it's appealing at all. He's the fucking like the Henry dodger of YouTube. It's fucking a. Yeah. It's beautiful. It's like, oh, God frigging like Warhol just just does shit. And you don't even know why you like it you just like it. Yeah. Dodger really it is. It's like equal parts like studs terkel like. Nightmare. But also like like also maintains the beautiful chaos, Richard price painting. But also like has the appeal of like like. Like. A good actor who like is sort of Minnesota via with somebody play. Oh, like kind of like. Philip Seymour Hoffman. Yeah. Veto god. I mean. 'cause Philipson were often always had like a like a kind of like a weird. I don't know why I like this guy. But I like them like, I don't know why I'm rooting for this guy. But I am Mike in an act and like any acting role happiness. Yeah. Yeah. Really upsetting. He was like a really upsetting role. Yeah. Ryan fenwick. Has that that really really close analog come to think of it? Yeah. Think you're something fucking something. But you were fucking nothing. Honestly god. I if I was an agent, it'd be like, hey, we need to have a meeting. Why mill start pitching new for roles? Good. God get him rescue him. Get him in the shower and get him out there. Get a male with them. Involve foil doesn't involve style. Involves styrofoam trae then. Get them going good. But we love him. Make sure you put the foil off the brownie. Otherwise it burns. Okay. Don't put it in the microwave never. So many things circling this looking the weepy voice cooking show. Called don't talk. Just listen with featuring the way chef. Do you cook onions on medium or lower school, ding? Goes. When is. Put it on high for forty minutes. That would be awesome. Don't talk Lewisham. Well. That's all other great art. Wow. All right. After leave it on the refrigerator. It's all. Torque up when the important thing. Make sure keep your oven. Talking. Fuck. Oh, man. Nine and no one lights. This is actually the worst. Because had we done this episode two days ago. Two more days to actually go in film. Fucking of weepy voiced killer cooking show, my mother's kitchen made for that right now. Right now. Boy night will never be sure of those. Holy fuck. What episode is this is up? So to twelve right? Weird. Fuck. I love it. Yeah. You wanna plug, of course, rhetoric coffee pride of Oakland, and Oakland, California is a lot of our fans and we're proud of Oakland. Not only for the raiders go raiders even dyed-in-the-wool Seahawks fan. I'm gonna say go raiders and you're losing your team, but not your spirits. Rhetoric coffees. Teas it's an easy equation. Just. No playing that shit. Oh dot co of the overstock dot com arena changing into dot co. And no one cared. And they're like, no they Oakland's cool river coffee pride of Oakland, California. It's really it's coffee subscription service. Every two we've coffee was delivered to your house, different blends, and you get to have a nice little surprise because you don't remember that you signed up for it all the time and then one day after box neat. Neat. The boxes also useful for keeping gadgets together. I use mine for I keep this work keep my rubbers and sex stuff in on my nightstand here, keep my bullets in mine. Yeah. I keep my always spoke. Rhetoric. Rhetoric coffee killer. Okay. Here's the my coffee. In the voice of the weepy voiced killer. Listen over scripting soon. Forties. Well, see address. Makeover every team weeks who's. Well, go go go. On the books wrong. Talking. Fuck dot com. Also older goes you like old clothes? I know you do do you like do you like going to thrift stores and having to deal with crying babies and fucking peop-? People on probation work in their shit. Look. I don't know. I don't. Wendy's. We're gonna live by sorting through the stuff. Yes. Use the bathroom there. They give you a hard time. Cool. Good savers or goodwill or whatever value village, depending on where you live. It's always a trip. Now, these people are big ship is always one person who like I have to keep my section clean on. I'm the boss here. Yeah. Hey, what was always one Salvation Army was one guy walking around with thinks? He's the boss. He's overpricing everything just like a business trip. You don't have to do with it but mile measured. If you could just wake up and get on your phone and find all the cool fines curated by somebody. Who has a really good tastes. Her name is Jesse. And she runs a store called older ghosts on stream, and you can go and find all those cool fines from the comfort of your own home. And you don't have to interact with the humans, especially ones that smell bad at some store out of the way all cross cross a set of train tracks and some strip mall. You don't wanna be out there? And then since you're out there you eat at that Mexican spot. You swore you'd never eat it. And then he gets sick. Again. It's your only your own ever. Learn never learn you don't wanna go out to the suburbs. And we could stay right. And you're cool. On urban enclave. And then we're cool clothes, and they said Where'd you get that? And they say, oh, you know, I've had this for years when they lie but anyway, older ghosts. Gets Vince clothing also Jesse on the eyes and she models every bit of clothing. So if you're into that cool. Cool. A little added bonus. We're basically in the subject I want to shout out the Salvation Army in colony who sold me a sweater that the tag come off of beautiful fucking. I don't care. You don't care. Hey tip. You could always wears the Marine Corps ship. Lady to work there who wanted to everyone to know her son was in the marines sick. Then one day. I went there. She wasn't wearing it anymore during the Gulf war. Who was like, oh, Adam Adam died. Still have to go to work and Salvation Army. All no. The army called her and they're locked old. Listen to twelve piece by right? Fan club. Starting in the rain. What you want to say? After the show. Thing.

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August 6, 2020: Louis Freeh Confirmed FBI Director

Today in True Crime

12:26 min | 4 months ago

August 6, 2020: Louis Freeh Confirmed FBI Director

"Today is Thursday August sixth twenty twenty on this day. In Nineteen, ninety, three Louis. J Freeh was confirmed by the United States Senate as the Fifth Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. During his tenure, he would oversee several of the most infamous criminal cases in US history. Welcome to today in true crime a podcast. Original. Today, we're covering the confirmation of Louis Free as director of the FBI. Let's go back to Washington DC on August. Sixth. Nineteen ninety. Three. Inside the Senate Chamber, the mood was jubilant, almost carefree as senators prepared to vote on the confirmation of Louis J Freeh. All, one hundred senators on both sides of the aisle seemed confident and reassured that free was the man for the job. So on August sixth without a single dissenting vote free was officially confirmed. Just, under a month later, he was sworn into office, by President Bill Clinton. Clinton had nominated free to replace William Sessions. The previous FBI director sessions had allegedly clashed with both Attorney General, Dick Thornburgh and Thornburgh successor Attorney General William, Bar Bar was openly hostile to director sessions. His anger stemmed in part from sessions refusal to turn a blind partisan. I to the possible transgressions within bars Justice Department. In fact, after sessions opened an investigation into that, very department bar opened his own ethics investigation into sessions. He accused sessions of using FBI funds to pay for security system in his home, and for traveling aboard an F. B., i. jet to visit his daughter, neither of which met the threshold of High Crimes. Nonetheless sessions was reprimanded by lawmakers including new Attorney General Janet Reno and actually encouraged to resign when he refused. He was dismissed by President Clinton for crimes that in hindsight, appear innocuous and almost quaint. And with sessions departure. Louis. J. Freeh. was sworn in. He was immediately put to the test at the time of freeze confirmation. The FBI. was in the midst of a highly sensitive and widely publicized investigation of the WACO FIASCO and investigation that would set free and Janet Reno on an inexorable collision course. Up Next, we'll explore the major cases and investigations during Freeh's tenure and how his leadership shaped the FBI for years to calm. High Listeners Har- cast has teamed up with the co-host from the hit podcast. To bring you the next big thing and true crime and podcasts and countdowns. It's called crime countdown and you can hear new episodes. Every Monday here's ash and Elena to tell you more. Hi, I'm ash and I'm Alina and we're hosting the new podcast original series crime countdown ever wonder who the worst serial killer was, how about the creepiest Cope, or which is the coldest of all cold cases. Well, podcast thinks you deserve answers or at least in passionate opinions and they've enlisted us in the podcast research God's to get to the bottom of things every Monday on crime. Crime countdown, we'll discuss ten unsettling true crime stories centered around a common theme. We'll try to shock surprise and one up each other debating each case and its ranking with just a hint of humor. We can't help it. Episode topics range from the off putting to the offbeat and include the top ten fatal Romances, the top ten Zodiac killer theories, and even the top ten stolen body parts. We may not always agree and we may not be experts, but that's what the research gods are for. Follow our new series crime countdown on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Now back to the story. On August sixth. Nineteen ninety-three Louis J Freeh was confirmed by the Senate as the new director of the FBI almost immediately free had his work cut out for him. Beginning in late February of Nineteen ninety-three, a religious sect known as the branch. Davidians barricaded themselves inside their fortified compound preventing law enforcement officials from entering the property. The standoff lasted nearly two months and only ended after the. FBI, initiated a siege on the compound one that ended in the deaths of seventy six branch Davidians including twenty five children. and. Less than a year. Earlier, there had been a similar incident known as the Ruby Ridge standoff after refusing to appear in court for several firearms, charges, FBI agents attempted to arrest Randy weaver at his home in rural. Idaho Weaver refused to surrender and an eleven day standoff ensued during the first two days of the standoff both Weaver's wife and fourteen year old son were killed during gunfire exchanges with US marshals and the FBI nine days later after employing a civilian negotiator weaver and what was left of his family surrendered to with authorities. After public outcry over both incidents, F. B. I. opened investigations into the two events, and although they had both occurred under Louis Freeh's predecessor, they would ultimately become freeze responsibility and shape public opinion toward the new director in both cases, law enforcement agents. The FBI in particular were blamed for escalating the confrontations and for the civilian deaths although it was Attorney General Janet Reno. Who? Who had actually ordered the FBI response in Waco. Much of the blame landed on free. Almost immediately, he was accused of covering up or obstructing both investigations to protect his. It's not only that he appeared to Stonewall Janet Reno wet nearly every juncture when she requested information about either case at one point, Reno. Actually ordered federal marshals to Seize Waco related documents from FBI headquarters. Worse yet on April Nineteenth nineteen ninety-five a rental truck full of explosives detonated outside the Alfred P, Murrah? Federal, building in Oklahoma City the blast killed one, hundred, sixty, eight innocent civilians and injured. Almost seven hundred, the bomber Timothy, McVeigh cited the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents as his motivation for planting the bomb. The bombing put renewed focus on the FBI. is handling of those cases prompting several civil suits from the surviving members of the branch Davidians. The weaver family and agents who'd been instructed to carry out the sieges many were settled out of court or were decided in favor of the plaintiffs. then. In March of Nineteen, ninety six, the F. B. I. Engaged in yet another standoff this time with an anti-government militia known as the Montana Freemen, perhaps owing to the catastrophic results of previous sieges. This one ended peacefully after eighty one days. But the event that would prove most divisive between. Lewis. Free and President Bill. Clinton. The man who appointed him was the investigation into the Khobar Towers bombing or lack thereof. On June twenty-fifth Nineteen ninety-six, a truck bomb exploded outside the towers which housed US and Saudi security personnel, nineteen us, air force personnel, and one. Saudi civilian were killed. Free ordered an investigation into the attack and uncovered evidence pointing towards Iran. However, at the time Clinton was pushing for renewed diplomatic relations with the country and allegedly stalled the investigation process. It wasn't until Clinton. Left office that charges were filed against the bombing suspects. Despite a tense relationship with Clinton after the bombing free remained. Director, until mid two, thousand, one after George W, Bush. Presidency, and during that year, the F. B. I. Arrested one of its own agents, Robert, Hanssen on espionage charges. From. Nineteen, seventy, nine to two, thousand, one agent Hanson provided top secret and highly valuable information to the KGB and Russian intelligence. The espionage crimes committed by Hanson were so egregious that he was eventually sentenced to life in prison on fifteen counts of espionage. For Louis Freeh, the Hanson arrest was the last straw in June two. Thousand one he resigned many in the intelligence community had begun speaking out against free and what was perceived to be a lack of leadership at the FBI on his part. On September fourth, two, thousand, one, just seven days before the nine eleven attacks, Robert Muller was sworn in as the six director of the FBI unlike his two predecessors. Muller completed his full ten year term and was succeeded by James, Comey in two, thousand thirteen. However. Both men would later face off against President Donald Trump Komi as director of the FBI and Muller Special Counsel for the Department of Justice in Muller's case. It was also Bill Bar, the same man who'd sparred with Williams sessions who attempted to undermine Muller's credibility. Thanks for listening to today in true crime, I'm Vanessa Richardson today in true crime is a podcast original. You can find more episodes of today and true crime and all other park has originals for free on spotify that only does spotify already have all of your favorite music. But now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like today and true crime for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream today in true crime on. On, spotify just open the APP and type today in true crime in the search bar, we'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow. In true crime today in true crime was created by Max coupler and is a podcast studios original. It is executive produced by Max Cutler sound designed by Juan Boorda with production assistance by Ron Shapiro, Carly Madden, and Joshua Kern. This episode of today and true crime was written by Tony Goodman with writing assistance by Abigail. Cannon I'm Vanessa Richardson. FINASA don't forget to check out the brand new podcast, original series crime countdown hosted by Ash and Elena from the hit podcast. Morbid. Crime countdown ranks some of history's most intriguing and unsettling true crime stories. New episodes, premiere, every Monday, follow crime countdown free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

FBI Louis J Freeh director President Bill Clinton US spotify Attorney General Janet Reno Robert Muller Randy weaver Waco Louis Free Justice Department Davidians Janet Reno Washington Ruby Ridge Fifth Director United States Senate Elena FBI.
Episode 4: The Homeland

Bundyville: The Remnant

22:35 min | 1 year ago

Episode 4: The Homeland

"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reads uses wordpress to publish all of its journalism including Bonneville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Sh- BUNDY VILLE wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help showoff their small businesses or even a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day help you with whatever you wanNA create plans start just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates just a really quick warning before we start this episode contains mild wild swearing and descriptions of racist violence and ideologies that maybe upsetting to some listeners keep that in mind when choosing when and where to listen every fourth the July weekend religious community way up North Eastern Washington Wilson event called the God in country celebration people girl hamburgers and hotdogs kids put on a play about America it could be a scene from a lot of small conservative towns. The kids do a choreographed flag-waving routine. The boys were red white and blue t shirts tucked into their genes. They sing song for Les Miserables About Liberty in standing up for themselves but this isn't just a celebration of independence got in country is a gathering where people go each year to hear speakers from the Patriot the movement in twenty teen the featured guest at the festival was Ginette Vinnicombe Lavoix Finnigan's widow. I want you to think Berry Pastor Berry A- and bird for hosting me year for hosting this premiere of boy talking long before Ginette Finchem showed the movie about her husband and Oregon she was here to show it in Stevens County me Washington. It's this far flung county way closer to Canada in Idaho then Seattle. It's long been a haven for people who've been trying to hide from the federal government. You're all family. This festival was actually close to the media. The Garden Country Celebration is a notoriously secretive event but someone gave me recordings of the speeches from that day and it struck me how different Ginette Finnigan's words were here compared to when we saw her back in Salem on the V._F._W.. She still talked about government overreach and the conspiracy to kill her husband but she took it further. This time are using labels and the force of government unless you aw she kept using that word lynching. She never used it when I saw her in Salem but here she flipped the word on its head she said the people the Patriot movement mostly white people were the victims that they were being lynched. You're standing and standing with avoid label in in the Lynch mob by her estimation is the media inflicting punishment upon God fearing freedom lovers. It's interesting to me that Ginette say words like this about the so-called oppression of Christian patriots for this place she'd come to one of the whitest parts of the country with a message that white people are the victims of oppression so Lujan is here are you can get a fair trial in our curve federal courts but the reality that somebody like boy was just a rancher never had a speeding ticket or criminal record of anytime we domestic extremists terrorists and they murdered by those controlling our government when I went to Panetta I saw bombing that seemed like a began as a response to the death of avoid finicky him and then I talked to Bill Keebler. You're a guy who says he was targeted by the F._B._i.. Payback for his role in the bunkerville standoff at Bundy ranch for decades. The Patriot movement in the federal government have been locked in this back and forth. We're violence begets. It's violence and both sides try to control the narrative to justify their actions. The feds rewrote keebler story to suit their purposes pushing him until he was as violent as they needed him to be the Patriot movement. Meanwhile has rewritten Lavoie Finnigan saying that he was killed while trying to peacefully protest even though lavoix seemed to be the one searching for a fight and now Ginette has brought that message to Stevens County Washington part of a region that. For the past thirty years has produced white supremacists burn crosses bomb buildings and murdered people then they've justified it with a mix of religion and conspiracy theories so if you wanNA understand the ideology behind the Patriot movement who's being recruited what comes next you have to understand. This part of Stevens County from long reads in Oregon Public Broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah silly before we get into the story of Stevens County. I WanNa address something that would probably come as a surprise to people listening who aren't familiar with the inland northwest. You might think the North Western U._S.. Is All rain showers and mountains nirvana records coffee shops in weeds stores on every corner right but this part of the northwest. I'm about to tell you about eastern Washington North Idaho it actually it couldn't be less in line with that. Image Deeply Conservative area the West tot and dry in the summer coldest hell in the winner in the past few years. Some people have started to call this region. The American readout a readout is a kind of military fortification and they've been encouraging libertarians improper from around the country to make a home here. They're even read out realtors. We'll sell you a house complete with a bomb shelter so so this episode is about Stevens County but it's also about this region as a whole and you can't talk about the violent history of Stevens County without first understanding the Aryan nations the area nations was a Neo Nazi group with a compound North Idaho but in the summer of Nineteen Ninety eight simple wrong turn by family coming home from a wedding led to its downfall Victoria Keenan and her son. We're looking for a loss wallet when and they turned down a back road for reasons that have never really been explained members of the area nations chased the Keenan's for miles ran them off the road and held the family hostage at gunpoint the KEENAN's would go on to sue the Neo Nazi group group for millions of dollars bankrupting them and then they proceeded to buy the group's compound when it went up for auction. Those buildings were eventually bulldozed effectively destroying the central gathering place for the region's white supremacists forcing forcing them to find new homes new places to meet up so they spread out to nearby communities like Stevens County but before that happened the compound had been beacon to white supremacists and hate groups for decades a reason into gather in this part of the country so probably my first encounter with this was in the early eighties about nineteen eighty or eighty one for more than three decades journalists. Bill Moreland has been documenting steady stream of violence coming out of this area Dan. There's no reporter out there. I no longer track record of covering the white supremacist anti-government movements in the West we had across burning at the nation's in North Idaho and I had been on the staff of the Spokane Daily Chronicle at that point for about a decade and <hes> cross burnings in the northwest and in North Idaho in particular were not an everyday occurrence in the eighties much like today people debated whether covering white supremacists amounted into advertising their ideas was part of the community that some of the areas white residents felt go away if they ignored it. Even as people who weren't white were being terrorized. Moreland says a columnist at the other paper in town thought they shouldn't even be talking about cross burnings. He was of the School of thought that if you ignore them they'll go away by writing about them. All you're doing is giving them publicity and I have never to this day signed onto that belief system and by the way neither do major civil rights organizations reservations according to those groups shining light on the problem is more effective than ignoring it and more Orleans says readers of the paper wanted to know who was burning crosses in their backyard so moreland has photographer are on their way to the cross burning thinking they'll find some nearby hill and shoot photos from there there wasn't a good hill and then they ran into a fence blocking their way so they decided to just drive up to the front gate of the Aryan nations and <hes> so we got there <hes> <hes> it was darkness had sit in and it was July summer evening we were greeted by at least two. Maybe three armed guards one of whom pointed his <hes> his rifle in into the window at my head instead who are you. What are you doing here and demanded identification? I told him out as a reporter for the spokane paper and he said you're not welcome here. Get outta here and I said okay put you down man. I'm not GonNa Challenge and so we turned around Lou and left what moreland would go on to learn is that a guy named Richard Butler founder of the area nations and the most prominent white supremacists in America had chosen this corner of the country to set up shop Butler form the Church Richer Jesus Christ Christian which is Christian identity <hes> religious group and he referred to the area nations as the churches political on people who believe in Christian identity are white supremacists. It's a religion that believes. The people of Color don't have souls the Jews or the spawn of Eve and Satan that the tribes of Israel or white people and his butlers church became more entrenched Moreland kept reporting on it attending cross burnings and ceremonies unease or the K._k._k.. Blessed knives and guns and he started seeing more Christian identity churches popping up one in sandpoint idaho tune Stevens County Washington but the real turning point of violence in the northwest Moreland says says is when a group called the order formed as an offshoot of the area nations and so in one thousand nine hundred three secretly the order is formed in in North Wash on North Eastern Washington unbeknownst to me and everyone else and then but by nineteen eighty-four specifically late in Nineteen eighty-four <hes> basically all hell breaks loose. The order was a group of guys who wanted to start a race war based on a novel called the Turner Diaries. That's the same book that Timothy McVeigh US to justify his bombing on the Murrah building in Oklahoma City about a decade later. It didn't take long for the order to start killing people moreland says litany of violence began in Nineteen eighty-four with the murder of Jewish radio host in Denver a following that there were a robberies of a <hes> adult bookstore in Spokane bombing of a synagogue in Boise <hes> the <hes> robbery of an armored car <hes> up in Seattle in Seattle area <hes> the printing of counterfeit money on the presses of the area nations and in probably the home what are the hallmark crimes was the robbery of armored Carney California that knitted something on the order of Ah you know four to five million dollars in cold cash in the money bags and all these crimes were meant to inspire and bankroll a white revolution. It's easy to look back now and see how they were connected but at the time the F._B._i.. Had trouble figuring out who is committing all of them and this is in an era before the term harassment anything to anybody I mean it's like domestic terrorism. What's that people didn't understand what was going on and so while law enforcement forcement was trying to figure out who they were dealing with Christian identity took root in this remote part of the country then in Nineteen ninety-two a guy named Randy Weaver who had been known taking out of the Aryan nations compound failed failed to show up in court after selling illegal weapons to an A._T._f.? Informant and Moreland reported the story the U._S. Marshals Confronted Weaver and the infamous Ruby Ridge standoff began this was two hours from Stevens County and and militias and other anti-government group's flocked to the remote mountain where the Weaver family lived Ruby Ridge really was a you know a lightning stick if you will <hes> that had occurred and a lot of people after Ruby Ridge came together instead we're never again get federal agents come into our county and you know encircle a cabin. After Ruby Ridge Morlin continued to report on anti-government movement in this entire region and often his reporting brought him to Stevens County Washington go western Stevens County is very rural and sparsely populated just over forty four thousand people live there and it's bigger than some states back east. I asked Moreland to compile what he knew about violence. There came to our meeting with a very very long list. Well Okay you want me walk through this whole list. Is that the that's what three pages is that stuff that's happened tide is even county shit. I walked quickly Sherry so Stevens Morland said that in some some cases Stevens County residents were targeted just because they had Jewish sounding last names the violence was indiscriminate but a couple of prominent cases linked to a place called the ARC. The ARK was a Christian identity church and Stevens County Johny up near the Canadian border so even after the Aryan nations was torn down people could still go to the ARC Morlin told me about a serial killer named Israel Keyes <hes> turns out that he was basically raised in Stevens County me and that he attended the ARC description unity church up there with his parents and the ARC is important because the doctrine of white supremacy preach their lead to more serious violence like the Ki-ho brothers who also attended the Ark and in July live nineteen ninety eight Chevy ki-ho his father Kirby Ki-ho were charging an indictment listing fifty seven separate crimes including five murders Chevy Ki-ho and Daniel Louis Lee were accused of conspiring to build a whites-only area in People's Republic beginning in nineteen ninety-three so they're embar embarking on a whites-only kind of a concept much like the order had done back in the mid eighties <hes> Chevy Ki-ho and Danny Lee was a skinhead were also accused of planning pipe bomb. It was detonated at the entrances for Kansas City. Hall Marlins List is wildly violent and took about twenty minutes to get through so I won't tell you about every murdering Aaron threat but the point is it was all sort of a domino effect of violence that started at the Aryan nations it stretched back decades and continues today. This is a tiny population of people that produces way more than its share of. Violent extremists. It's a history that the people who live in Stevens County can't seem to get away from it's a history that they're always trying to escape John. Smith is the former seventh district senator from Washington State and before he moved to Stevens County he lived with his grandparents in Idaho and other members of the area nations the order and and you know they're chancellery groups came through our house a lot when I was when I was a kid. Smith's grandfather was close with people in the area nations picture a rotating cast of Nazis at your dining room table that was Smith's childhood and he says that what Butler in the area nations ultimately wanted was a white homeland tells the story of when he was a kid and a bunch of guys where at his grandfather's house they were all around the kitchen table with maps laid out and they were strategizing and they are literally literally talking about a violent takeover of several counties in in Idaho. They're talking about how <hes> boy when they get in power <hes> not only are the Jewish bankers going to be hanging from the light poles but all of those blacks who dare look at a woman and then all of those all of those judeo-christian pastors who said it was all okay you know they're going to be right there beside him because they're going to implement righteousness so many of the hateful movements that have started in this part of the country ultimately come back to that idea of whites only haven Smith says he thought leaving home would get him away from racism so he moved to Stevens County Washington with the ideas he was trying to escape had gotten there. I I had viewed northeast Washington is kind of a refuge from what was going on in Boise and when I finally came here I was confronted by some folks who were essentially traveled in the same circles oils is my grandfather and I want to be clear white supremacists in Stevens county where minority even at the peak of their influence but the county is just so big an empty. It's easy to stay off the radar. We'll just like there. There are thousands ends of wonderful people who live here that would never embrace the stuff that we're talking about. It's also the kind of environment where if you WANNA move somewhere and do something where you don't want prying eyes. There's an opportunity for that so so it's space. I think there's there's means opportunity here. Those means an opportunity have long been appalled for radicals trying to make a whites-only homeland built on so-called Christian values and those ideas persist today wherever we come as a country when loving the constitution being a Patriot loving Jesus is extremist match. Shea is a Washington state representative out of Spokane Valley which isn't even in Stevens Wins County because there regularly to talk about creating new state. He calls liberty again. It's already happening in fact I wanNA talk about what has come to be known as the American readout but it's actually not a new idea. It's actually really old idea and this is a map from eighteen sixty and it shows Washington in Idaho essentially connected match as big idea is to sever off eastern Washington from the more liberal western Washington and create a state that embodies his style of Christian values a place shaped by ideology and ruled by Biblical Law. It's an idea that bears striking resemblance to what Richard Butler tried to create with the area nations. Here's Bill Moreland again. Richard Butler wanted awaits only homeland in the northwest which isn't that much different than fifty for state because the fifty first State that Matt Shays talking about is essentially would the demographics of it would be mostly white you but Richard Butler also talked about what he called Mongrel hordes invading the United States across the U._S. Mexican border and now we have a president who talks about rapists murderers. We're invading the United States from across the border so oh well what I heard Richard Butler talk about an spouse and preach about forty seven years ago I'm now hearing from the White House and maybe you're thinking politician say a lot of things and make lots of promises and most of it never happens especially when it's being proposed by a low level conservative lawmaker in a state controlled by Democrats and you'd be right except that match isn't thinking about this in terms of the democratic process. He has a battle plan to force the idea. It's called the biblical basis for war. That's next time on Bundy Ville. This episode was written by me. Leah's Tilly Peter Frick Right and Ryan has all the music in the series was written in performed by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout. Mike Nick Dang An- Anna Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research Help from Kim Freda thank you to David Study for his keen ears and thank you to Bill Morlin and all the staff at the Spokane spokesman review for all the work they've done for decades. Reporting on hate groups in the northwest Bundy Ville is a co-production of long reads in Oregon public broadcasting their members make the show possible so if you like this type of journalism please consider a donation for becoming.

Stevens County Bill Moreland Stevens County Washington Richard Butler Ginette Vinnicombe Lavoix Finn Idaho Oregon spokane Washington North Idaho Ginette Leah America Seattle Randy Weaver Washington North Idaho Canada Boise Bonneville Bundy Ville
From Survivalist Childhood To Cambridge Ph.D.

Fresh Air

49:57 min | 2 years ago

From Survivalist Childhood To Cambridge Ph.D.

"Support for this NPR podcast and the following message. Come from the UPS store, offering services from shredding to printing to mailboxes and instead of closing this holiday. The UPS store is doing another ING altogether. Opening the UPS store every ING for small business. And of course shipping from WHYY in Philadelphia. This is fresh air. I'm Dave Davies infra Terry gross, growing up in rural Idaho, Tara westover had no birth certificate. Never saw doctor and didn't go to school her deeply religious parents stockpiled food and weapons for Armageddon or a government invasion. We were very much prepared for that. And we had all of these supplies in place in case the world ended. Also in case we needed to to defend ourselves shoe Vinci made her way to college and graduate school her father trek to Boston to cast out her demons and was disappointed the daughter that my father had come to reclaim no longer existed. She had. Studied and she had read and she had Brown her own mind terror westover memoir educated is now out in paperback and is on several best book lists for twenty eight teen. Also, Justin Chang reviews m night shamans new movie glass that's coming up on today's fresh air. My guest Tara westover grew up in a family of nine at the base of a mountain in Idaho. Her parents were religious fundamentalists her dad's spent more time talking to his children about the end of the world or an apocalyptic confrontation with the government than college or careers. She never saw the inside of a classroom before she was seventeen westover is written a remarkable memoir about her journey from childhood defined by her father's fundamentalism and paranoia too. Awkward ventures into the mainstream world and eventually high academic achievement. She graduated Magna cum laude from Brigham Young University. And then studied at Harvard and in England where she earned a PHD at Cambridge along the way there were injuries from working in her father's scrap yard, violent assaults from an older brother and painful struggles with her family tear, west overs memoir called educated is on several best books list for twenty eighteen including the New York review of books, and it's now out in paperback. Back. I spoke to her last year. When educated was published in hardback. We'll Tara westover welcome to fresh air. I'd like to begin by just talking about the setting you grew up in a rural household near a mountain in Idaho. And I'd like you to read a bit from the very beginning of the book, the prologue, you're kind of describing the mountain, and what your family is like if you would just go ahead. The hell is paved with wild wheat. If the conifers and sagebrush are soloists, the wheatfield is a Korda ballet, each stem falling all the rest and bursts of movement a million ballerinas bending one after the other as great Gaels dent, their golden heads the shape of that dent lasts only a moment. And is as close as anyone gets to seeing wind turning toward our house on the hillside. I see movements of a different kind tall shadows stiffly pushing through the currents. My brothers are awake. Testing the weather. I imagined my mother at the stove hovering over brand pancakes. I picture my father hunched by the back door lacing his steel toed, boots and threading his calloused hands into welding gloves on the highway below the school bus rolls passed without stopping. I am only seven, but I understand that it is. This fact, more than any other that makes my family different. We don't go to school dad worries that the government will force us to go. But it can't because it doesn't know about us. Four of my parents, seven children don't have birth certificates. We have no medical records because we were born at home. I have never seen a doctor or nurse. We have no school records because we've never set foot in a classroom. When I am nine I will be issued a delayed certificate of birth. But at this moment, according to the state of Aita, ho and the federal government, I do not exist. Of course, I did exist. I had grown up preparing for the days of abomination watching for the sun to darken for the moon to drip, as if with blood. I had spent my summers bottling peaches, and my winters rotating emergency supplies when the world of men failed. My family would continue on on affected. Westover from her book educated a memoir of her childhood and early adult life. This is a remarkable place where you grew up this mountain you want to just describe it a bit. So we lived in a in a small yellow house. It was set field at the base of a mountain. And when I grew up I heard a lot of stories about this mountain. My father told me a story about the the ascendant princesses image of this woman that would appear on the mountain face in the spring. And he said that that the when the pneumatic Indians had lived in that in in our valley that they would watch for her appearance as a sign of spring. The winter was over and it was time to come home. So a lot of beautiful elements of my childhood we had a farm which belonged to my grandfather. And we had a salvage yard full of crumpled up cars, which belonged to my father. And my mother was a she was an herbalist and amid wife and his children, we spent a lot of hours walking on the mountain gathering rose, hips and Mullen flowers that she could Stu into tinctures. So in a lot of ways it was a very beautiful childhood. And of course, to me, it was the only life I had ever known. So it seemed normal to me now, I'm an adult I can see that it wasn't exactly normal. There were several aspects of it that were quite unusual. Seven your older siblings went to school for a while. But eventually your parents pulled you all out of school, and you were home schooled. And as you said your dad had a scrap yard and at times would do construction in the area. You write that as a kid? You had a head for the hills bag everybody did what was it for? While my father had some concerns that the federal government might be pursuing us because we we weren't in school. I think he conceived of himself as sort of a force fighting against this this corrupted government, which he thought had been corrupted by the aluminum and. The he called him. Anything's illuminates the new world order. So it was very much disdain idea that I grew up with all of these things from the medical stablishment doctors and hospitals to public education an- anything to do with the government that these things had all been corrupted in some way by the luminosity by the new world order, and we were very much prepared for that. And we had all of these supplies in place in case the world ended. But also in case we needed to to defend ourselves. The government might come in and try to arrest. You take you away. Take over your lives. Well, I think my father had he had very strong second amendment beliefs certainly, and he thought that the right to per arms was a the best safeguard against a Toronto government in general. But I think very specifically because my family we were living in this unusual way. Where we we didn't go to the doctor. We didn't go to the hospital ever. We we didn't go to school. I think he was particularly concerned about some kind of intervention that we might be forced to go to school, which he was very much opposed to he believed the public education was a kind of brainwashing institution when you were a little kid when you had your head for the hills bag what was in your back. Everything from water purification, tablets 'em Ariz had knife. I had an emergency blanket. I had mosquito netting. I mean, it goes it goes on for quite some time. I had a little heater to heat up meals can openers and cans of things it was a pretty fully stocked bag. Did you practice grabbing it in fleeing for the hills? I did. And I mean when I. I was five or six is when the Ruby Ridge that happened when I was when I was a young child at Ruby Ridge of an-and in my memory of it, my experience of it was something, really terrifying. Because as far as I knew that family was my family, and the reason that the government had come for them. Those were reasons that the government might come for us. And there was a period where I think my father was very worried about that and very much saw himself as as being in the same position as Randy Weaver. And so when he told us that story it very much entered into my imagination a something that could happen to us at any moment on. So for me that whole period of my life became a period where I thought the government might arrive at any moment, and we would need to run to the mountain and survive on the mountain, which I thought we had quite a good chance of doing because we were so familiar with the mountain, and I thought well, the feds won't have a chance because we know books peak. So well. We should remind listeners the Ruby Ridge. Siege was involved this guy. Randy Weaver who was wanted by federal authorities. I think on a gun charge, and he had been associated with an Aryan supremacy group, I think and his dog was shot. His son was shot. His wife was shot. That was an investigation the lawsuit and a lot of public outcry pretty horrific set of things, but that to your father. This was presented you as the government coming after them because these people had withdrawn from society the way you had well, I don't remember him ever telling me the end of the story. So when I was a child, I remember him telling me that these people were trapped in their home that the federal government had surrounded their house that the son had been killed and that when the father had tried to visit his body that he had also been shot. And also the mother had been killed by a sniper while holding a baby that's the version that I was told and actually all of that is true. But in my mind, I don't know how. Yeah. I thought that my father knew about it. We didn't have a TV. We didn't have a radio somehow he discovered this. And he told us this story what I didn't realize until I was much older. And at a university was that my father knew about the story because everyone knew about this story, and it had been a a national media event. And there had been interviews, and there had been congressional inquiries. And there had been a lot of outcry about what had happened. And I think it changed that story for me as a child that had been a story about how the government was terrifying on about how we were all Volna Rable to the government at any moment, and how there was no checks on power. And when I learned about the full story when I was at the university, it became a different kind of story about the kind of institutional checks that you have to abuse power. What steps did your dad take besides packing getaway? And what are the ways was he preparing for either the end of the world or a government invasion? As I said, he he was a big believer in the second amendment. So he did have some guns on then there was quite a lot of food preparation in my family a lot of canning pretty much. I think what other kids would have called summer. I I called canning season. So we would we would can for most of the summer and fall in order to get I think my father's goal would have been a ten year supply. He would have really liked to have ten years. And I'm not sure how close we ever got that. But, but we we certainly tried and then water fuel Morse code mirrors, all kinds of kind of walkie-talkie and radio type things that you need. If you're going to communicate without power, those kinds of things. I mean, I don't know how much I remember now. But when I was say when I was twelve I think Morse code is one of the few things I had undertaken a systematic study of actually I mean, this was a beautiful tranquil place that you're in. And yet, I I wonder if you grew up as a kid with, you know, the fear of these powerful unseen forces that could destroy your lives without warning. And you know, things that we learn when we're little can really have a lasting emotional kind of residency. Do you think that affected your outlook of the world at all? I think it's certainly must have it was a quality of my upbringing that everything had these kind of to size. So the mountain was an incredibly beautiful place. And the junkyard was this exotic playground, and my mother's herbalism was kind of like magic. And it was something that was beautiful and fun. But. Also, you know to me carried a lot of power. But then there was another side of all of these things because the mountain could be kind of terrifying. And the junkyard could be a very dangerous place. We were injured a lot in junkyard. My my brother wants lit his leg on fire. And after when the fire was finally out his leg was covered and third degree burns. And we made the decision or my parents did not to take him to the hospital, but to treat that at home with a Assaf, my mother made of come free, and they'll be Leah. And then even the herbalism it's still has a magic quality. But there was also kind of a terrifying. Quality because there were no painkillers involved. Obviously, he had to recover from that through strength of will know morphine nothing. And so there was a sense with all of these things that there was a lot of beauty. But there was also another side to it. You were home schooled how much schooling did you and your your six brothers and sisters get I think we all had a different level when the older boys were younger, my mother. I think tried quite hard to conduct a homeschool. And as time went on my mother had seven children. She was she was very much looking after the house and the farm, and then she was doing herbalism, and then she became a midwife. And I think my father became more and more insistent on having the boys in the in the scrap yard working. So that by the time, I came along the home school, I think had kind of fallen by the wayside. And there was there was not a lot of school taking place we had books, and occasionally we would be kind of sent to read them. But for example, I was the youngest child, and I never took an exam or I never wrote an essay for my mother that she read or nothing like kind of getting everyone together and having anything like a lecture. So it was a lot more. If you wanted to read a book, you you could but you certainly weren't going to be made to do that. Your dad is quite a character in this story. Since you didn't do a lot of studying in your younger years. You also you did a fair amount of work run working in this scrap yard. We're just describe what that was like. Was the scrap yard was this really fun wonderful place when I was a child and we played in it. We would play hide and seek among the cars, and we would we would loot them, essentially. And we would we had all these elaborate games. But as I got older, it became a place where we were. We were where we worked, and that could be pretty terrifying because my father, I don't think he ever would have intentionally put any of us in danger. But for whatever reason he just didn't have that bone in his head. But said this is dangerous. Don't don't do this. And you had a really hard time understanding injuries even after they had happened and how severe they were. I just I don't know what it was about the way his mind worked. He just wasn't able to do that. And so oftentimes the working conditions were pretty dangerous, and we weren't allowed to wear hard, hats or gloves because my father thought it might slow us down. And again, I don't think this was out of callousness. I I just don't think he. Understood that people could get hurt. And of course, people did get hurt me pretty often. I'd like you to describe one of these incidents. It's where you are. I think you would probably around ten, and you you you call the bunch of scrap metal and filled it into a bin. And then the way the way you would understand it take these bins and empty them into a trailer. So you could go in and sell them was there would be a forklift, right? That would pick the Ben up. Tell us what happened here with with this little this little operation. Yeah. So I had failed up a band full of iron. And then I went and told my father so that he could get in the forklift Ajay CBS what he had which is at forklift that has an extendable boom on it. And he he he said, right? We'll jump into the jump into the Ben and ride it up. And then I'll give you a minute to kind of jump into the trailer. And you can you can skim to the side. And then I'll dump the Ben, and I sort of this. Let's. Not do it like that. Why don't you take me up separately on all because he wanted me to climb into the scrap and kind of subtle it? So that Moore would fit when we dumped the next round. Well, it's being lifted by the forklift fifteen feet off the ground. Yeah. So he tells me to climb into the Ben, and I was I was not in the habit of not doing what my father told me to do. I was very much in the habit of doing what he said. And so I I did. And what happened was while he was driving the Ben over to the over to the the trailer where he could dump it a really sharp bit of metal shifted, and it just went straight into my leg. Like like like a spear almost like something going into butter knife going into butter, and it just pinned me in place, and I couldn't move. And so my father lifted the been level with the trailer, but I could crawl off. And and then he was giving me a minute. So I could run over maybe climb on the cab and get out of the way, but I couldn't move and I couldn't shout to him to tell him that. I couldn't move because it's a very loud diesel engine. And he couldn't hear me. So what happened was he lifted the Ben effectively dumped it while? I was still inside. And I was. I was lucky in that when the medal started to shift. I was able to throw myself over the side rather than hit rather than go down with the scrap which would have just been like going through a meat grinder. I think but I went off the side. And I smacked the side of the trailer wall, and then fell to the ground. And it was it was a for me. Anyway, it was a it was a moment where when it was over, and I was sort of laying in dirt, and my father came over and asked me what happened all I felt was ashamed that I couldn't do this thing that he'd asked me to do. And in retrospect, it seemed like a very simple thing. And I think as as children, it's it's so easy to take the weight of those kinds of things onto yourself. Hurt your leg was bleeding very badly. I was hurt. And I, but I didn't understand. I don't think I had an understanding or the ability to understand my father at that moment. I knew he loved me. And I knew he cared about my safety. I wasn't. So I had to assume that the problem with me, and that I had done something wrong. And so even though I was injured. I was terribly hurt. There wasn't anything. I could have done differently. I still internalized that as my fault. And I think the reason I did that is because I I didn't have the tools to understand that my father could love me and could value my safety. But he might not be able to keep me safe. He might he just might not be able to do that. Because of some beliefs that he has or some way his mind works, and I had to get much older. I think before I could see moments like that and understand them not not to be so angry with him to realize that he was doing the best. He could. But but also not to to internalize them and blame I saw. And I think the greatest evidence for the fact that my father really believed what he was doing. He would never have put us in any danger that he wouldn't put himself in. I think the greatest evidence for that is probably the worst injury that ever happened to anyone in a scrap yard happened to my father because he was trying to remove a fuel tank from a car and a spark from the cutting torch. He was holding made it into the tank of the car and the car exploded, and he was burned terribly. And so he I think was injured worse than almost anyone. And I just think it shows this was a belief that he had I'm not a medical professional, and I'm not qualified to diagnose him. But I do think that there was something maybe a bipolar something going on. He wasn't able to understand these kind of risks. I don't think. Also believe that the Lord had a plan. And if he was burned or your leg was cut. There was a reason for it. I think he had a trust in God in that way. That went almost absolves him in his mind of having to take the kinds of precautions that anyone else would take. And then after it was over. He would find ways to explain that that it was supposed to happen that way. And so even with his burn very quickly that became a narrative of of that needing to happen to teach him some things to be a path to greater spiritual enlightenment. I'm then he's told me since that time that he regularly will go get a cutting torch. And and try to take the tanks off of cars with a torch. Even though he has had this experience, and and been really terribly burned by it. Westover is memoir called educated is now out in paperback after a break, she'll talk about physical abuse. She suffered at the hands of an older brother and about making her way into college. And her father's attempt to bring her back to the life. She'd grown up in. Also, Justin Chang reviews, m night shamans new movie glass, I'm Dave Davies, this is fresh air support for this podcast is brought to you by discover card. You check things all the time like your, Email or social media. But discover asks what about checking something as important as your credit score. Well, discover makes it quick and easy with their credit scorecard wishes free for everyone, even if you're not a customer, see your FICO credit score and other importance credit information, and once, you know, your score, you should check to see if your current credit card is the best fit for you. Learn more at discover dot com slash credit scorecard. Limitations apply. This is fresh air. I'm Dave Davies infra Terry gross. Who's off? This week. We're listening to my interview recorded last year with Tara westover whose book is about growing up with fundamentalist parents in rural Idaho as a kid. She didn't have a birth certificate. Never saw Dr and didn't go to school. She eventually made her way to college and earned a PHD at Cambridge. Her memoir. Called educated is on several best books lists for twenty eighteen and it's now out in paperback. Your family was Mormon and you go up with some pretty clear understanding of gender roles. I'm wondering what? You know, as as you were a kid, and then as you got a little older, did you have a vision for the kind of life that you would lead. Well, my family was I think a bit more radical than most Mormons especially on on the question of gender. So in my mind, growing up there wasn't ever any question of what my future would look like I would get married when I was seventeen or eighteen and I would be given some corner of the farm and my husband would put a house on it. And we have kids, and possibly I would become a midwife like my mother and takeover with the herbs when I was a child this was very much the path as it was laid out for me and music became very important to that. Because music became something. I wanted to learn how to do and the first time that I had had heard something like opera or a choir. I realized this is something that takes discipline, and you have to go somewhere and learn how to do this. And that there are people in the world who know about this and continues this to you. And so I think it was really a draw of music that I made me think maybe it would be all right. If I went away and went to university, which my father was against. But maybe it would be all right. Because the reason I would go is to learn about music, and then I could come back and live on the farm, and and be voice teacher or direct the church choir. And so in my mind that was that was acceptable. I could do that did you rebel with? Did you rebel thought of getting married and getting a house on the corner of the farm to feel constricted? Eventually, I suppose I did. But initially, no, I think initially my rebellion. My rebellion of going to college. When my dad would have liked me to stay home and work in the herbs. I think it was a pretty mild rebellion in the sense that I thought well, I'm gonna I'm gonna go learn how to be a music teacher. So that I can come home and do choir. It was it was pretty tame rebellion. I I had to be I was in school for probably three or four years before I began taking courses in history and political science, and I just started to realize how big the world was. I mean when I arrived in college. I didn't know anything one of my first lectures, I raised my hand. And what the holocaust was because I had never heard of it and a year or two of being in this environment. The learning about all of these things holocaust the civil rights movement and the thirty nine th parallel difference between north and South Korea. The world's started to feel very. Big. And that's I think when I began to wonder if moving back if that was really what I wanted. Moving into the mainstream world. I mean, you lived in a rural community where people worked hard all day and working in a scrap yard. I mean, I've done industrial work. And I know what it's like to get that dirty. I mean, I'm wondering if you're kind of habits of personal hygiene weren't exactly consistent with the mainstream world. Yeah. And I think some of some of that might have been the fact that I had worked construction, but I think some of it was just my family. You know, my my dad used to tease, my grandmother, my mother's mother because she she would say, oh, don't you? Teach your kids to wash their hands after the bathroom after they go to the bathroom, and my father would say now, I teach them not to piss on their hands. And that was just his his idea of hygiene. And of course, when I went to the university, and and carried on with this, my roommates pretty they were pretty horrified, and I had to be, you know, they sat me down, and sort of said, this this doesn't this doesn't cut it you need to do this differently. So I think some of it was just specific to my family. Do you still a moron? I don't I have a lot of respect for Mormonism on my entire family and extended family are Mormon, and I'm I'm always conscious of of that. And and try to be respectful of that. And I always try to point out. You know, my family are not Representative of of Mormonism, most Mormons believe in public education, and they they believe in doctors, and hospitals and all of that. So I don't think it was Mormonism that that explains my childhood, I think my father had again, this these kind of paranoia or mentally regularities. And I think that religion was a behavioral for that. I don't think that religion caused it. One of your brothers. Sean had a violent streak you had several incidents where he attacked you want to just explain a little bit. What would happen and what triggered? Well. I'd said that my child had had a lot of beautiful elements. But that there was this kind of duality to everything, and I think my brother, Sean is a really great example of that in a way because he was ten years older than I was he was my favorite of my brothers. And he and I were very close. He could be kind. He could be sensitive. He could be really loving. But he had another side he could be manipulative, even cruel. He liked to play this kind of game where he would he would ask you to do something. Maybe get him a glass of water, and you would and then. And then you'd bring it Tim. And he would say, oh, actually, I want ice in in the water. See go get ice. And then you'd bring it back, and he would say no to take the ice out. I don't want. I what is this? And you could you could do that for twenty minutes. Bring the ice take the ice out. Bring the is take it out on at some point. You just get tired of the game. And you'd say I'm not going to do this anymore, and then he would get very very angry and he would become violent. He would grab my wrist. And twist it behind my back until it started spraying or sometimes he would grab me by my hair and homey down the hallway and shoved my head in the toilet on call me a whore. So this was the kind of interaction that I had with him. And it was again, just the stew oddity where sometimes he was so kind and then other times he was just very cruel and quite dominating. Win. This would happen. Sometimes it would happen in the presence of others like once on in a parking lot and another with this good friend of yours, Charles. And you write that you would laugh kind of in this crazy way to make. It seem like it was a joke. What was going on there? Well, I think I have a theory. I think that all abuse. No matter what kind of abuse. It is. I think it's foremost on assaults on the mind. I think if you're going to abuse someone you have to invade the reality in order to distort it, and you have to simultaneously convince them of two things one that what you're doing isn't that bad, which means you have to normalize it. And to maybe that they deserve what's happening. And I think the the second one is the easiest because people are they internalize that kind of shame when they're being hurt. But the first one is quite hard on my my brother was good at that. So the one example that you mentioned where my my friend was present Charles I had brought him home for thanksgiving. And I think my brother was upset because this was my boyfriend, and he was he was I think he felt the need to dominate to show some kind of control over me. So before the male had even started he grabbed me by hair and yanked me down the hallway and shoved my head in the toilet. And Charles was. Obviously horrified. He had no idea. What to do? He was frightened. And after it was all over my brother came into my room unsaid that he'd had no idea that he'd hurt me. It had been a game. And that had just gotten a little out of hand the next time. We were we were having fun. I should be sure to tell him if I was getting hurt, and I took his perspective one hundred percent on made it my own so much. So that I tried to convince Charles of it. And of course, he didn't believe me he knew what he had seen. But he also knew that there wasn't much point in trying to argue with me because reality was irrelevant on. He could see I think how deeply under my brothers power. I was. Your the thing about as I hear about this. I mean, it became an issue later in the family, you you had a sister who had suffered some violence at Shawn's hands and it arose, and your parents just wouldn't deal with it. And it's clear as you describe these incidents that they had seen some of this and. You know, if you have parents who won't keep you safe that just has to be a really damaging thing to go through. Did you feel that? Well, I said, I think all abuses is foremost, an assault on the mind. I think what's interesting about what happened with my parents. You know, the night that I talked to them that I confronted them about my brother. My sister had asked me to an I agreed that I should so I confronted them. And I really believed that we could just put a stop to it and forgive it. And ultimately, probably forget it. But what happened was my parents didn't. I don't know if they didn't believe me. But they certainly said they didn't believe me on. So my father said I was lying. He said I was trying to destroy the family. My mother said possibly I was insane. And my memory's couldn't be trusted. And it was pretty terrible. Having my parents, not believe me. But that wasn't the worst thing. The worst thing was that they told my brother immediately, my father called my brother, Sean and told him what I'd said and what followed then was a period of of a lot of threats and menace fr. From him where he would call in threaten me or say that he was going to hire an assassin to come kill me. And ultimately, he then cut me out of his life and disowned me. And my parents supported that decision on his on his part. So Gooding back to that thing of I think abuse in order for abuse to happen reality has to be distorted and some pretty serious ways. And I think my parents made the decision to join in that distortion, I think rather than correct it. And I don't know if they realized at the time the path that they were starting out on. Maybe it didn't seem that that difference them rather. They believe me or didn't believe me. But it ended up having some pretty serious consequences. Stover's memoir is called educated. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message. Come from season, two of choice allergy and. Original podcasts from Charles Schwab season. Two of choice. Allergy is hosted by scientists Katie milkman, listen as she shares real world stories of people facing monumental decisions with special guests ranging from sports heroes, two Nobel laureates choice. Allergy also provides tools and strategies for making better choices in life. Download the latest episode and subscribe at Schwab dot com slash podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. We take most things for granted. Like our morning coffee. But there are a lot of people behind that Cup of coffee and AJ Jacobs set out to thank all of them. It doesn't take a village to make a Cup of coffee and takes the world ideas around appreciation on the Ted radio hour from NPR. This is fresh air. And we're speaking with Tara westover. She has a memoir about her early childhood growing up in Idaho where she was home schooled. The memoir is called educated. The book tells the story of you going to Brigham Young University, and then eventually to Cambridge in England and then to Harvard and getting a PHD and struggling with the poor self image. You had and it's it's an amazing story. And there's a moment win when you're at Harvard, and your father comes with your mother and stays in your dorm room and wants to save you he wants to give you a priesthood blessing to cleanse, you of the thoughts and demons that have corrupted your life, and you write that you felt this impulse to give in to just yes, I'll accept the blessing. I'll return to this describe that that impulse. I mean, this is you'd spend a longtime in a different world. I the first stage of estrangement from my family was really involuntary. My brother had cut me out of his life. And my parents had accepted that and they had kind of disinvited me from coming home not Christmas because they said, it would make my brother uncomfortable. Then about ten months later had this ten months where I was ostracized for. In my family, not of my own choice. My parents announce that they were coming to Harvard, and that was that was surprising for a couple of reasons. There are two things. My father hates more than anything one. It's travel and the other is liberals succumbing to Harvard was a surprise. I think they had only they only been there. A very short time. I father my mother before I realized why come and that is they had come to offer me a way back into the family that is to say he come to offer me this blessing. But I think he wanted to treat as a kind of exercises them of the demon that he believed was inside me that had made me say what I'd said about my brother, and there was a long period where I thought maybe I could do that I could just allow the ritual to take place, and I could blame the demon. All I had to do was exchanged their memories for mine, and I could have my family. So there was this period of a couple of days several days when I was walking around Boston sightseeing with my parents that I thought this was a bargain, I can make and I was talking with myself that maybe it was the right thing. Couldn't do it. And the end I couldn't do it. The night before my parents were supposed to return back to Idaho. My father offered me this blessing, and I tried to accept it. But in that moment, I think I understood something important which was that the daughter that my father had come to reclaim no longer existed. She had studied and she had red and she had grown her own mind. And that mind had no tolerance for violence. And I think it was in that moment. I realized of course, of course, it wasn't a demon. That had said those things about my brother, I had said those things and what my father had come to cast out of me. It wasn't a demon. It was me. Your parents were in Boston with you a few days. What was it like to see them there as tourists? Did you see things about them that you hadn't before it was interesting just seeing them in that backdrop, I was so used to seeing them on the mountain, and, you know, my father came to Harvard, and he was wearing his lifetime and are a member jacket and his NRA hat, and of course, that's quite unusual on Harvard's campus. And then there was just the fact of the scars he had from his burn. So his right hand was kind of frozen in this slightly gnarled position. From from the burns the way his fingers had had had curled and bent from the tendons being so burned. It was the first time I had seen him in this place where he looked just so much like he didn't belong there. It's got to be a scary thing to write about your members of your own family. And I'm sure you've thought about how your parents will react and it occurred to me that if in reading this they see. Your life as you experienced an examined it they'll get it in a way that they couldn't before. And it might lead to some sort of breakthrough. What do you think I hope that when I was riding it? I don't know if that will happen. And I think I will always be watching for signs that my family culture has changed, but it's moved away from this place of secrecy, and enabling so I watch for those signs, but I don't wait for them. I've kind of I've come to accept that. Whether or not my family changes is outside of my power. And I just try to live a full life. Either way. Have you heard from them since the the books emerged or since it's been written about? Well. I mean, how the my family situation. Now, I'm strange from about half of my family. And there's another half of my family that I'm really close with actually and the the unfolding of that. I mean, we were we were at Harvard in this this this dramatic scene. It happened where I had rejected this blessing for my father. And after they left. There was a period of about a year where I effectively had a mental breakdown and with everything that involves panic attacks in I would wake up in the middle of the street having run they're having screaming, but having no real memory of how I got there. And I I really fell apart. What brought me out of that really was my brother Tyler came back into my life. And he he he showed up. He he said he'd been hearing all these things that my parents have been telling people that I had this demon. And and he asked me my version what had happened. And then he he believed me on. So there was this amazing kind of saving thing about that. Where there had been this this small kind of windy distortions around my brother, Sean, an I in this relationship that we had and then my parents had kind of come along and turn that into a hurricane. It felt like their version. One of me and their version of our history together was like a hurricane which sweeping through the whole world. And then my brother suddenly came into my life again on. It was almost as if. I guess it was it showed me how powerful it is. When even a single bystander stops by standing, and I think he really intervened in my life in this way that I'm in all never be able to repay him for that. I was I think I was pretty close to giving up at that point. And just accepting. My parents had tried so hard to discredit me with everyone else I'd ever known, but the person they'd really succeeded in discrediting with myself, and you know, my brother came back into my life, and he really changed everything. He also went to college went went to university and made a different life for himself. He did he was the first he was the first one who did go to college. And and he was the one who told me to go. And then the the next brother of mine who really stood up and said that he believed me about my about my brother, Sean and rejected. My parents narrative of me was my brother, Richard. And I think that was it was very hard for him. But I think in these kind of systems, you know, I do think that in order for a base like this to go on there has to be a lot of reality bending. And I think it's it's true that one person can make it stop an Tyler was that person for me. Westover? Thanks so much for speaking with us. Thanks for having me. Terro westover memoir educated is now out in paperback. We recorded our interview last February. So we reached out to see if things had changed between Tara and her family. She remains estranged from her parents and several of her siblings coming up. Justin Chang reviews m night. Shyamalan lines new movie glass this is fresh air. This message comes from NPR sponsor REI REI believes that a live outdoors is a life. Well lived and they have for eighty years. So check out their podcast wild ideas worth living for inspiring stories of people who took the road, less traveled here from explorers, athletes, authors and experts in the field follow how they're taking wild ideas and making them a reality every day find that on I tunes Spotify, Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts this week on ask me another. We've got TV's favorite muscleman Terry crews from Brooklyn nine nine and he chats about his multiple talents. And how. We stays humble in Hollywood. It's dropping in your feeds. Friday, January eighteenth on NPR's. Our puzzles word games and trivia, am not Sean Malone's glass is a direct sequel to two of his previous movies, his two thousand superhero drama unbreakable at his 2017. Multiple personality thriller split the story unfolds in the director's hometown of Philadelphia and continues the adventures of three characters gifted with extraordinary powers played by returning cast members Bruce Willis Samuel L Jackson, James McEvoy. Film critic Justin Chang has this review few filmmakers are as committed to their own preposterousness as m night Shamlan and after seeing his alternately, tortured and inspired new thriller glass. I'm not sure whether to be sad or grateful. It's an eccentric ambitious perilously self-indulgence sequel that braids together two of his previous movies split his recent freakout starring James McEvoy as a serial kidnapper with a severe case of dissociate. Of identity disorder and unbreakable his melancholy two thousand drama with Bruce Willis as shatterproof superhero. Welcome in other words to the shemmel on cinematic universe. A rail of rug pulling twists and elaborately contrived mythologies where coincidences don't exist in every childhood trauma is an origin story in the making unbreakable as you may know, gave us an origin story for Bruce Willis, his character David done, but also for his nemesis. Elisha price a brittle bone comic book obsessive turned maniacal mass murderer Samuel L Jackson is back as Elisha who. Now goes by Mr. glass and has spent almost two decades in Philadelphia psychiatric hospital his quarters are about to get a lot more crowded as the movie opens David has embraced his vigilante hero identity. He walks the streets in a hooded poncho sniffing out evil telepathically. It doesn't take him long to track down James mcevoy's. Villain who goes by? Kevin Wendell crumb, but has twenty three different names and personalities the most fearsome of witches the beast a wall crawling monster with an awesomely ripped torso. Shortly after David rescues four teenage girls from Kevin's layer. The two men are apprehended by police and thrown into the asylum with Elisha where they are studied by Dr L E stable a psychiatrist played by an intense, Sarah Paulson, her theory is that David Kevin and Elijah are not in fact, super human beings. And that they're seemingly extraordinary capabilities have perfectly rational explanations. But Elijah knows better at one point he reassures Kevin or rather Patricia one of Kevin's multiple personalities whose job is to protect him from harm on subsidy. Patricia. What did he go to these extraordinarily things? Justin. Well. Thank you. Everything extraordinary can be explained away. And yet it is true. I think deep down, you know, this everything we will see do have a basis in science. But it will have limits. This is the real world not cartoon. And yet some of us don't die from balloons. Some of us can still bend steel that is not a fantasy. Dr staple tells David Kevin and Elijah that they are suffering from a delusion of grander which might be shemmel on having a joke at his own expense since his phenomenal success with a sixth sense twenty years ago. He's had one of the more erratic. Hollywood careers marked by high profile duds and a very public fall from grace. He scored a comeback hit with split two years ago, which suggested that his knack for auditions storytelling hadn't entirely abandoned him glass does make good on some of splits promise despite its workmanlike action sequences all those alter-egos allow McEvoy to deliver another over the top acting toward a force while Willis's dependable heroics and Jackson subtle villainy. Provide a welcome counterbalance. Unbreakable fans will appreciate the emotional continuity of having Charlene Woodard and Spencer treat Clark reprised their roles as Elijah's mother and David son nineteen years later, also. For more is the remarkable on Anya, Taylor joy who was resilient enough to survive Kevin's kidnapping spree in split, though, here she has the key Stockholm task of trying to reconnect with her former captor eventually David Kevin and Elijah find a way to escape their prison and wage war against each other perhaps but also against a world that will always fear and persecute them because of their powers Shama. Lonzo lesson is that superheroes or real our stories are all connected, and whatever makes you different is. Also, what makes you awesome? It's an inspiring message. But it doesn't feel like the stuff of revelation. The recent Spiderman into the spider verse succeeded against all reason in revitalizing the superhero genre and turning its derivative qualities into a clever meta joke, but while Shamlan has his own scholarly affection for fan, boy culture. He even sets a few scenes in an old school comic bookstore. His approach to the material feels the belabored and. Obvious by comparison. He still knows how to build tension inside the frame how to take your breath away with a simple camera move. But he also insists on stuffing earnest pronouncements into his characters mouth dishing out explanatory flashbacks like candy and giving himself another painfully pointless direct to'real cameo. Whether you see this glass as half, full or half empty is entirely up to you. But there's no mistaking it for the work of anyone else. Justin Chang is a film critic at the LA times on the Martin Luther King day edition of fresh air. Monday, Terry talks with Henry Louis gates, the fifth season of his TV series. Finding your roots is now showing on PBS, and we'll hear what he's learned about his own ancestry also journalist Brian Palmer talks about some troubling views of the civil war and slavery propagated at publicly funded confederate historic sites in the south. Hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support from Jewish Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld, Charlie higher engineered today show, our associate producer for digital media is Molly seavy nesper Fayette Challenor directed today show for Terry gross. I'm Dave Davies. This message comes from NPR sponsor Comcast. Comcast values your time. That's why you can schedule to our appointment windows, including nights and weekends that way. You can spend more time doing what you love. Comcast working to make things. Simple easy. And awesome.

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October 22: Troubled waters

As It Happens from CBC Radio

49:34 min | Last month

October 22: Troubled waters

"You're smart funny friends who always seem to have the best celebrity gossip I'm talking about the ones who always know where you should be watching reading or listening to what have you could pick their brains every week pop is a brand new podcast but does exactly that and feels like spending time with your best friends. So join me Alina Mahmoud and a panel of the smartest culture critics that I know as we dissect the discourse but also have a great time doing it. This is a CBC podcast. Hello I'm Carol off and I'm Chris Ouden. This is as it happens the podcast addition. Tonight troubled waters people in an Ontario first nation haven't had safe water from their taps for nearly twenty five years, and now there's no water coming of the taps at all it's a good news could cause bad news scenario a New York doctor says covert nineteen death rates are going down. Thanks to exactly the kind of measures people might give up because death rates are going down hard hitting questions. Now that he's a member of Quebec's National Assembly, a former NHL enforcer is trying to keep young people from injuring their brains by banning fighting in the. Top Junior league pain and game for the first time the makers of oxycontin admit to criminal liability. But one mother whose son died of an overdose says the historic plea deal doesn't hold the company's executives or billionaire owners accountable chicks but never cheats Penn of Penn and teller remembers his close friend, the late Canadian magician and skeptic James Randi who saw through phonies as if by magic and the Camera Mile High Club when the International Space Station Sprung? An air leak the brilliant scientists aboard employed the most effective technology at their disposal to find it a tea bag as it happens the Thursday edition ready that suggests you don't try this at home. Decades the residents of the niche candidate first nation haven't had access to clean drinking water this week they haven't had access to running water at all more than two hundred people from the northwestern Ontario community have had to leave their homes because of an oily sheen in the water reservoir, they went to thunder bay more than four hours away Ottawa's covering the cost of the evacuation. Peter Mooney is the former chief of Nash Candida we reach him at a hotel in Thunder, Bay? Peter you're now in Thunder Bay I know your your granddaughters there with you in the family. How are they coping? Only. Know Grace to who they say. The. Scary so can't. Normally. Travel like we used to run cities and all that different places and all. Right. Not only to be evacuated but evacuating entire or parts of your community in the middle of a pandemic it's not a good thing. Is it? No, it's not a good thing. It's a scary thing, but we have no choice but to come to someplace where we can have access to tie human need, which is a water. Can you tell us what is going on in this country I? Mean you've had running water for about twenty five years. Now you have no running water is that we have no running water whatever signed case we have problem of getting our reservoirs. because. There's a leak in the sewage system I'm in orders. Waterline somewhere and I heard about sixteen leaks. `nother thing is there's some kinda residual excluding on top of the water in the reservoir where where'd I this coming from? We don't know his Santa. Test and the result hasn't come back yet. This is something that was supposed to be in the process of being resolved because you've had this boil water advisory for twenty five years the the Trudeau. Government had committed itself to fixing it, and now it just seems it's worse than ever. How did they get to the state that it's now in we have been given funds. To repair. It's not a new system that was funded. It's to repair what's needs to be done to make it drinkable water and all that. There was enough funds and for that and they did that. The they'll probably did that already now before they open the system, you have to have a fourteen day test. Okay. which is to run the water Khuda pipes and all that and supposed to be. Clean and clear. I'd water in the system was supposed to open, but they can't do that because of the fact. That existing. So which lines cannot take the pressure from venue water repaired system we had. uh-huh. So you can't th there's no. The takeaway isn't working to can't take the pressure that's a new system would give it. Is that right? Yeah. Because the all systems. Okay. Okay. With the Minister of Indigenous Services Mark Miller. He said on twitter that his department has funded a sixteen point four million dollars for new water treatment plant and upgrades to the system. But you're saying that that new water treatment doesn't work with the sewage system of the of your town. Yes it's it does not work Dave. Mara band-aid solutions bended disbanded that and all that but they didn't want to fund the real problem. A real problem is a leaky pipes. Proved blueprint out system doesn't even knock. Out, system that we operate. Now, why do you think that that wasn't thought through because you have to be a qualified engineer or your university educated for you to be believed if your love is not going down this Kinda? SORTA. Government is being treating us. If you said, this is the problem we got a problem here I have to be educated. For the ministry, the believe me and that's what the bureaucratic system in that first nation community is Paula sees suppress first nations people. You can only say what they want to hear what they don't want to hear what they say. Why we have a problem today. We had built a new water system on sixteen million dollars. We would have had the good system. But instead they were funding a band aid solutions. See Your community includes your house clinic here. All your home's will continue to have no water. You're the longest standing boil water advisory in the country twenty-five years you've had kids grow up become adults have their own kids and still not be able to take a glass of water from top. Do you see the end of this. Do you see a time when you'll be able to live in your community with tap water was running water like communities in the South have? I. Hope. So I hope that Canada understands that we are humans also that the government hostile understand that we are fully Canadian also. We believe that those rights that we have water is essential for daily life and part of human rights thing in there. Every person has to hop this water. That's why I believe that some day maybe not in my I don't know I. Hope it's not my it's not A. Late you know where I don't see it myself. Seventy five year old woman myself logical affects a very, very traumatized in a way that I cannot grunk water from the top here in. Bay. I to buy a bottle of water had to went to the store and. Buy Water bottle during the night. I don't hot water and I get up, I will buy water in. Where the story with the corner is open. Goes I reality's a my life and the realities of these young people's lives. Peter I hope that you have the community that that you imagine where you have. Clean water good water running water in your homes and hope you can go home soon. Thank you. Thank you very much I. But Peter Mooney, US is the former chief of Nesh first nation. He's in Thunder Bay Ontario Today Indigenous Services Minister Mark Miller told the CBS's Jodi porter that his government is working to end the boil water advisory as quickly as possible and that a quarter of a century without clean water is entirely unacceptable. They've been accused of sparking North America's ongoing. OPIOID. Epidemic. Purdue Pharma founded by the billionaire sackler family I started selling Oxycontin in Nineteen ninety-six Almost. Three decades and countless deaths. Later, the company has admitted to criminal liability. The drug company will soon plead guilty to three counts including conspiracy to defraud the United States and violating federal anti kickback laws essentially paying doctors to push their drug. Emily Walden Son TJ died from an opioid overdose in two thousand twelve she's been fighting to hold the sackler is accountable ever since we reached Ms. Walden in. Louisville? Kentucky. And movie our you feeling about this guilty plea right now. it's come a little late. It really doesn't mean much because they are already in bankruptcy and it doesn't do anything I mean the company's going to dissolve anyway. So the only positive out of it is that other companies may now face us because the Department of Justice has said that what they did was wrong and illegal. and. It doesn't do anything to bring back the lives of so many who have died from these opioids and Lives of families that had been destroyed by which is your experience isn't it? Yes. I lost my son. T J at the age of Twenty One and two, thousand twelve and have been fighting. Ever since then and there's been no accountability up to this point with these companies and how they. You know put profits. Before lives. How did TJ get involved with Oxycontin? he was offered it at a with a group of friends. And quickly became addicted and then moved to the drug Pana. is a very. Strong. OPIOID, and he did go to treatment for a while. and was back and forth. he often said to me I do not want to die from this. I. WanNa get Better I. WanNa live a normal life. And how difficult was that struggle with addiction? Oh he just had the hardest time I mean he really really wanted to get better and it would just bring him back in. After your son's death is that when you became aware of how many other. Young people had died from this opioid and how many families their lives had been shattered by what what what did you learn about I guess the community of those who have suffered this I started. Drug Pana, couple years before he passed away and several people I've been in touch with. Me What was going on? I heard of Oxycontin before and I knew that it was not good. But I had no idea. It was as available as it was to anybody you know whether you had a prescription or not. You could get it very easily. It was an everybody's medicine cabinet. Is, the sackler family. There are billionaires they do have to pay a penalty for this. Do you think it's enough not at all? They moved ten billion dollars out of the company in the several years. I mean what? A two hundred, thousand dollars or two hundred, million dollar fine to them. That's nothing you know that's a trip to the grocery store and They need to go. To prison and pay for what they've done. The company itself Perdue will plead guilty to three counts including conspiracy to defraud the United States. VIOLATING VIOLATING FEDERAL ANTI kickback laws because they were paying doctors to push their drugs. Do you feel that is satisfactory? no because they're, already in bankruptcy court. If. This had happened several years ago. It would have been a bigger deal I think. But the company wants you file for bankruptcy. You're pretty much giving up the company anyway. So there's no penalty here. There's nothing. The prosecutors say that it's still possible that the sackler and the executives of pair do could face criminal charges. Do you think that will happen? No, I do not believe that will happen at all. The sectors have. Many connections many powerful connections. They have lots of money. They've walked away from this many many times and I think they will with the again. I know that there are several states that are not giving up on this and they want to go after them and I hope that they're successful but. You know all these years of trying to get changes. I it is very hard for me to get too hopeful. We know that when Donald Trump was campaigning in two, thousand, sixteen, twenty, fifteen, he was saying to families that he was going to deal with this that he understood. The the OPIOID overdose. The crisis that was happening in communities and that he would act on it. What do you make of the timing of this deal coming two weeks before the election? I. Think it's pretty obvious that it was political a political move as far as the timing of it. I don't believe he fully understands this issue in the previous administration. Eric holder was attorney general and he was an attorney for Purdue Pharma one time. So was Rudy Giuliani. So. Again the SACKLER is have. Many connections. To people and very powerful positions and I don't know if that came into play with this or not. But I can't help but think that it does. Is there any legal action would help ease the pain the loss of TJ My fear is that long after I'm gone My nieces and nephews and their children and their children will face an epidemic of this proportion maybe not by opioids but another drug. If things are not put in place now to ensure that this never happens again. And if that were done I, it would ease I would feel like that. You know I fought all this time and my son wanted to fight I country. And that would be a a way for him to Kinda come through in this that he made a change in a country that. was worth it. Emily. I am sorry for your loss and I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Emily Waldon's son. TJ died from an opioid overdose in two thousand twelve she was in Louisville Kentucky. The Amazing Randi never missed a trick the magician and skeptic who publicly debunked psychics and charlatans has died. He was ninety two. James Randi was born in Toronto and dropped out of school to join a carnival and as a magician, he did some pretty impressive tricks but he always insisted they were tricks and he started a one man crusade to confront fakes who insisted their tricks weren't. He was a regular on Johnny. Carson's tonight show, and in this clip, he demonstrates the sleight of hand behind so-called psychic surgery in which he makes it look like he's pulling out organs from the body of volunteer. Now what you're about to see. If, barehanded operation, which appears To Take Place by actually penetrating the body believe me what you're seeing is strictly special effects. It sleight of hand and nothing more, and this is the way it looks. That doesn't come up. To, bear in mind please. The people are showing. This is if we're really serious is actually did take place. and. As if surgery rudy perform people do this they go to the Philippines, they spend their money little bit funny to watch perhaps and you say, Gee, I know it's play-acting. It's not when they go by the tens of thousands every year. The Amazing Randi debunking psychic surgery on Johnny. Carson's tonight show the magician and skeptic has died at ninety two. Penn Gillette is part of the famous duo penn and teller and it was close friends with the amazing. Randi we reached him in. Las Vegas. Pen. First of all I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. You have called Amazing Randi and inspiration. How did he inspire you? Well you know I was I was kind of A. Kind of a loan atheist in a New England town in western Massachusetts and I read the Book Flynn Plan and I'd never seen science has kind of A. Kind of a tough guy things and here was this guy this grownup? who was living his life obsessed with truth and outspoken? And allowed he was known as well. This calm a skeptic doesn't do it. Justice does it he was a person who questioned everything he he was a magician the same time you questioned though the the illusions he questioned anything to do with this supernatural, the paranormal he questioned. Palm readers and he of all kinds and. How did he see the difference though between magic and deception routes? Very, very simple magicians do not lie about the universe they say they're gonNA fool you and they do there is a there is a contract although some of the same tools are employed there dot employed to someone against their will if you don't get the consent of the audience than it is wrong and randy talk that line very very clearly I mean some magicians maybe magicians. still believe that the purpose the magician has is to deliberately mislead the audience about the world around them. And Randy taught me and it's so deep in my heart. That is the opposite. You can never leave a penn and teller show believing something that I. Don't know to be true. Debunked all kinds of things from televangelists to well I guess. The most famous one is a Geller who was a man who claimed he could bend spoons with his mind and can you just tell your member how it is that he managed to debunk that actually on television right? Well well, he was very good friends You know one of the what are the strongest skeptics we had was Johnny Carson? And Johnny and Randy where we're very good friends and When are we gather was to appear? On the tonight show Johnny Carson. Johnny called Randy and Ratty told him what he needed to do to make it so that Regather would get a fair shake. The last thing they wanted was a fair shake. So they used you know Johnny Carson's props and Gallard did a just a terrible terrible embarrassing performance because without being given the leniency, he beat it. To snow people to get his tricks done, he was able to do nothing. So he exposed together. So offered a million dollar prize to anyone who could pri prove that they had supernatural powers or they had. They knew the presence of a supernatural being. Did he ever did anyone ever come close to getting that prize money you? You do that kind of thing I was on the committee with Randy, you do that kind of thing to kind of. Spread, information it's kind of a PR thing but deep in your heart and especially deep in Randy's hard. He thought they would be sincere people coming to claim that prize and examined and learn and you end up not. With the kind of sincere people trying to find something but you ended up with nothing but charlatans and people who have dental problems it ends up being. Very. Very Sad. The truth is you know Randy got this question all the time and teller I get it. Is that there isn't really much of a grey line when Einstein came out with the theory of special relativity he was interviewed someone said to them they're coming out with the book hundred scientists prove Einstein wrong and Einstein's response was one. It takes one. You don't need a hundred. It takes one just one last question for you. I know you gotta get onto your own show but. Is there a magic trick or delusion that Randy did that still impresses you well, everything randy was a wonderful. Wonderful performance but the thing I think that didn't maybe WANNA be Randy weaver backstage and he was doing a lecture and done this thing where the Dean had written something that Randy couldn't possibly know it folded it up, put an off and was to carry it in his suit coat pocket. And Randy had to, of course, accomplish the trick which was which. And I was backstage with Randy and he was talking to the deem. And the Dean Heavy Althorp in his pocket and Randy had the duplicate Lopez had. And he was showing him something and held the all blow up in his hand and out of the blue. He just said to me, did you know that Harry Houdini had dyslexia? And I said, no, I didn't know that at all. He said, yes, used to switch letters and on the word switch he did the switch he did the sneaky move that he couldn't get caught doing. He did on the word for the move he was doing now you can talk about Randy's morality but also to someone who is eighteen years old that was just just who I wanted to be. A Guy, who is That got strong and full of life. You would say the word switch on switch just. To show off. For a young guy. And now I'm. Pulling the pieces so forgive me. Sensory Playful qualities. Attached. To. The strongest morality. Aw. Rabbit was, and I'm afraid I can't talk about any more by scoring. Forgive me. Ten I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend again, but it's just been wonderful to speak with you to hear about him. Thank you. Thank you, right. Bye. We reached pendulum of Penn and teller in Las Vegas. Back. In nineteen eighty six, we called up James Randi after he was awarded a macarthur genius. Grants. Hence. I'm adopting scientific method though I am strictly amateur at science adopting scientific methods to look into. Claims the paranormal and the supernatural and the alcohol and I have been very successful in that I've been able to uncover an awful lot of fraud, the field and I have been able to successfully exposing a great number of people who are claiming supernatural powers. Such has just recently the fake news wbz grant, Peter Popoff, who I have really after this moment. Is that a crusader 'cause with you. Well, you mean the One aspect I was at one time after Geller affectively put him out of business as far as the United States and Canada concern he was the Israeli spoon bender who had a lot of scientists there now relieved of their. Apprehensions about him. And I have investigated everything from water-dousing is effectively showing the water dowsing is. His a bit of Flannery as well. That is finding water with a fork stick and such and finding lost children for the police and everything is and murdered victims and such. That's all a bunch of plumber and I've effectively show on that. That is the case. This just happens to be the current investigation, the business, the evangelist faith who are taking anywhere from ten to twenty dollars a piece every year in tax free donations from people promising. Also promised in the financial return which do not materialized. From nineteen eighty, six I was as it happens guest host Susan Rice speaking to James The amazing Randi, the Canadian magician and skeptic died on Tuesday at the age of ninety two for more on the story, you can go to our website CBC DOT CA Slash Ai H. I'm speaking to you at a moment of grave crisis. I'm Jeff Turner and this is recall. It's a series about history, not the ancient past but history that still hot to the touch. In this first season, I explore a revolutionary political movement that brought a modern democracy to the brink. You can find recall how to start a revolution on the CBC listen APP or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Justin Ling host of the village from CBC PODCASTS for years. Men were vanishing from Toronto's Gay Village The community had always suspected serial killer, and in the end they were right called a podcast that transcends true crime by the New Yorker and recommended by the Atlantic and esquire find the village on CBC listen to wherever you get your podcasts. It's good news the COVID nineteen death rates are on the decline, but it's also easily misinterpreted news. So the doctor who helped confirm it is doing her best to help people understand it along with her colleagues at Nyu Langone Dr Laura Horwitz recently determined the death rates for hospitalized patients in her health system dropped from more than twenty five percent in March to less than eight percent in August. Her team's findings have been peer reviewed and are coming out this month in the Journal of Hospital Medicine. We reached Dr Leo Horwitz in New York City. Just. How encouraging is this decline in the death rate from covid? Well I think it's good news. We certainly have learned how to take care of of cove nineteen better as time has gone on, we have learned more about new treatments. We have kept our hospitals from being overcrowded and and so I think. That's good news but I will that is good news with an Asterisk because. Nothing is written in stone and things can change hospitals can become overcrowded again, people could stop wearing masks and so a good news and and a testament to the hard work of the Dow public and two scientists, Fred? Research just. Wondering the reasons for it because on the one hand, we do know that a lot of the early deaths the death rates came from one this country I think in yours as well from nursing homes from an aging population that was completely unprotected and homes that were unprepared for this, it's a it seems to be a younger group. A younger cohort that is is is getting the disease now is it because of WHO's getting it more than what's how it's being treated? That's exactly the question we're interested in because you're absolutely right that people who are getting covert. Now being hospitalized are quite different than the ones you saw in the spring. So this analysis was an attempt to account for that. Said we looked at over five thousand patients and what we do is we we do our best to account for all of these characteristics that you just mentioned. How old are they do they have dementia? Do they You know? Are they smokers? Are they overweight? Do they have other medical diseases? We even account for how sick they are when they show up to the hospital. So how well how low is there oxygen? How bad are their bloodmarkers and? Accounting. For All of that, we still find a decrease. It's less of a decrease than just raw numbers, but there is still a substantial decline and we don't think it's fully explained by who the patients are to give us an idea of the kinds of treatments that we've we've heard from Donald Trump who has laid out what he thinks are the reasons why he's he survived covid nineteen what what are some of the treatments that you don't have proven to actually make a difference? Well, you know the only treatment that's been proven to have a mortality benefit right now are steroids and nowadays almost every patient in the hospital, we'll get them. but there are many other things that we do that cumulatively substantial effect and and some of those are our therapeutic or medical but we also don't rush to put people on ventilators. We put patients on their stomachs to help open up their lungs and help them breathe better. We know what complications that are likely to suffer from blood clots and kidney failure, and we look for those and we aggressively tried to prevent them. So there's a whole slew of things I wear doing each of which I think contributes a bit. Interesting that you said that mask-wearing makes a difference for the death rate because we think of masks, the physical distance thing is being something to prevent someone from getting it in the first place. So but how might that actually contribute to reduce death rate? Well certainly, the most important affected them is just as you said, is to prevent the spread of disease and that includes to are most vulnerable to you know nursing home patients and so forth. But there is a theory wearing I'm asking like perhaps prevents you from getting a speak a dose of virus. If you do get infected, perhaps you still affected, but you have less fires and and perhaps that would give you a less severe case of disease. There are a handful of diseases that we know that's a that is characteristic of We don't know anything about covid yet. So this is really just a theory but it's a theory that many are are kind of speculating about. Going back to Donald. Trump, just briefly a bit I mean his claims that he's feels better than ever that he's emerged that he's immune now and he That steroids were wonderful and the drugs for great Do you think that even the news of your study and what you're saying that the death rate is lower does is there a danger of people lowering their guards thinking? Okay. Well, if I get it, they'll they'll fix me up. Well, I hope that's not the case and as I said earlier, this is not a permanent number and it can change if the situation changes. So for example, if our hospitals become inundated with patients, they have difficulty providing care to everybody. So it certainly could change and the other thing to remember is that death is not the only outcome. We certainly recognize now that there is a a cohort. Of patients that will have long standing symptoms. We see these long haulers accumulating and nobody knows who is at risk for that yet and it it's it can be quite debilitating even for healthy young people in in the short term and I will add that even this lower death rate is still higher than for most other diseases that we see in and the hospital. So it's still carry substantial risk. Now I is there once we have to look ahead at a time when there will be a cure or the be vaccine. As the medical profession learned anything from all of this is amazing. Amount of research done is this useful going forward to beyond covid nineteen beyond this coronavirus knish apply to future the needs Oh, there's so much learning We're learning medical things about how the body works, but we're also learning operational things. How should we organize our supply chain? How can we organize surge capacity to deal with pandemics like this? How can we make things like face shields in? That were not dependent on. International distribution. So we're learning a huge amount and we're even learning slowly about how rapidly do really high quality randomized trial research across multiple institutions in light speed So Yes I think we're getting quite a lot. Well, it can be benefits from covert and there's not much I guess since the Medical Research and what we've learned about preparing for pandemics Dr Horwitz's good to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. The Aura. Horowitz. Is the director of the center for Healthcare Innovation and delivery science at Nyu Land Gone. We reached her in New York City. You. Francois. Blanchette was reluctant to answer questions English this morning, the blockade acquire leader said, that was because he didn't want to be misunderstood Mr Blanchette was calling on the prime minister to do more to support a university of Ottawa professor who was suspended earlier this year for using the n word in class. The Sees David third and asked Mr Blanchette to explain. Wars. I've been used. For. Really bad purposes. True history. And even today. And the persons that? Are under the. That this causes to them. Deserve all our. And Trung Gesture. To support them. However. Saying award in the context of. Education. Most, of all university education. Dude transmit knowledge. And the ability to criticize and than others on the lies some issues. Is Not. A gesture. which brings prejudice against. Those persons. Just explained to us what is going to be your question? I did I don't understand I. Don't WanNa make a mistake because you do not know how much each of your questions brings. Hundreds of messages on my twitter. So I wanted to be very careful about that. So there will be a very precise questions that will clarify the position of prime minister and we'll invite him actually to support the right of. Teacher. To carry issues and awards in order to. Transmit knowledge. Science. And as I understand it support. For the communities which are victims of resum. Why is it so important to use the N.? Word. Some people would say that yes, we have the freedom of speech in our country and we have the freedom to say and to express certain words and certain opinions but certain words and expressions address so foul. That maybe we don't need to say, maybe there's a more respectful way of conveying the same information the same sentiment. Without using such expression. What do you want to say to those people? I'm sorry I have to say that you have very rightfully expressed your sensibility and opinion which respects absolutely. But which I do not share. Bloc Quebecois leader Eve Francois Blanchette answering questions from the CBC's David Thurton at a press conference in Ottawa earlier today. And Rico Cicconi knows a thing or two about fighting in sport Mr. Cicconi. Career as an NHL enforcer is well-documented on Youtube. Most of the videos are entitled Enrico CICCONI versus somebody. Else. But now, Mr Cicconi is a liberal member of Quebec's National Assembly and he's introducing introducing a motion to ban fighting in sport for everyone under the age of eighteen we reached Enrico Cicconi in Montreal. And we go. You made your living as hockey fighter. So what do you say to those? Who might think it's bit hypocritical to try and ban that now well, you know what if they call me nip it but critical well, that's all right. I will raise the flag until the rest of my day to make sure that our youngsters. Are Healthy when they do sports because as you know things have changed through the years and that's ads changed and we have We have numbers, we have scientific reports old. Shows us the damage it can do on your brain you know and So it's if there's one person who's a well-placed talk about. These issues and somebody that has has to live with that for the rest of his life I feel my pain emotionally. Physically, every morning while that's me so I don't want that to who happens to to youngsters here especially in Quebec. So fighting is already banned in Quebec Leagues all Quebec Leagues Except for the Comeback Major Junior hockey league why are you pursuing them? Well, you know the the thing is, is that today it's not acceptable to have. You know because kick major Yorkie league like the H. L. Whol in the shell, they have some fifteen sixteen and seventeen year olds. They're minors you know we don't We don't accept Barrett, hands fighting in any sports here in Canada. You know especially here in Quebec they will like she let God Costa Today's your will never. Give you a license. Bro Fighting to I. Don't fight with her fifth bare fist, and we still accept that in the Hockey League Major Junior, Hockey League here in Quebec, with our youngsters. So this is a very ironic in the D. things should be stops, but he must know a lot of the guys in the. League. So are you getting pushed back from them? Of course, you know every everything I mean my own work and I've called the owners I called the GM's I talked to coach is also that they they wanna they wanna Ban Finding you know we're not there anymore and We have to stop doing this lab a lot of a lot of support you know and the parents. Of sending metcha messages so it's very very The message I received is very, very positive. The same time though the message that a lot of these young people are getting from watching. Watching professional hockey is that this is something that is condoned. It's like even celebrated I mean. So what do you do with that mixed message? Well, the thing is, is that you know if we in my era, you know it was a part of the game. It was a part of the game plan also intimidation but as we go through the years, you know it's there's less and less fighting and these players anymore uni dimensional that only. Does fighting. It doesn't happen anymore here in Quebec, we have zero point three percent of fighting every game. So it's almost gone and the thing that I don't understand don't accept is that we still leave it in the game which as no more effective on on the game. The only effect it has its negative leak on the honor players is you know though they Quebec players tend to go to the National Hockey League if they can. So if Quebec. Is doing this and other parts of the country and the system are not then are they ended disadvantage you Quebec players well, you know what if you look at the numbers of the last NHL draughts only players from cubic were drafted in the NHL if you look in which they have a hundred thousand players hockey players here in Tibet look at Sweden's we didn't have half of the players you have about fifty thousand players that play in tweet. Him The at thirty two players drafted and there's no fighting in Sweden same thing in the United States, they are fifty two players drafted this year and the NCAA they don't allow fighting. So it's not an advantage to fight. They don't drive the players for their ability to fight they drive them because they abilities to play hockey, and the goal hockey is to score to play defensively. It's the play offensively that's what it's all about. It's all about. Letting your gloves down that happened twenty years ago it was a part of the game not anymore you are in the opposition. So this bill is an opposition bill, but you do have Isabel Cherie who's the Quebec Minister for Sport, she's a former speed skater and she's already threatened to pull funding for the Quebec League if they don't do something about fighting. So what have you heard from her about your bill? You know what she did. She had a lever she had the money to finance because they asked for money to help because as you know the small businesses with the caveat at a rough time and it same thing with this, all the teams and she negotiated with them. So what they came up with is that there's more penalties for fighting it still there. So that's why you know. You gotta go all the way and I in my point of view you never never negotiate with the help of a youngster especially minors he said at the beginning that you live with the effects of having been an NHL enforcer every day that you spoke about your pain, what is it? You want young players to know about that pain well, you know what the the the thing is also is. To to mention is that what I'm trying to do here and what I'm working for is the kids in junior hockey league which. Less. Than One percent. You know we'll make a living out of hockey will play in the NHL. So we just WANNA try to work I. had to make sure that these kids don't go through what I went to what a lot of my teammates went through a lot of my teammates you know concussion problems which committed suicide which have a early Alzheimer's disease which a memory loss you know and this is something that I wake up. Every day thinking you know what the might happen to me also because I had around six or seven concussion in my in my career. So you know it's just that's the position. I have right now I just want to prevent that towards our youngsters rank you back and you know what I wished that if it happens here in Quebec, it will go through on -Tario in the Western hockey also. And Meka, it's good to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you very much. And Rico, CICCONI, breuil member of Quebec's National Assembly. We watched him in Montreal, and you can find more on that story on our website that CBC DOT CA Slash H. It's so frustrating when something starts leaking air, you have to listen for the his then you have to stick it in a bathtub full of water and look for bubbles. But in this case, the leaking object is too big for a bathtub plus it's already in a vacuum for about a year. Now, the International Space Station has been leaking air by this past August the leak had grown, and since the bathtub thing was out of the question, the crew was forced to use an ultrasonic leak detector, which actually sounds a lot more effective. Eventually they tracked the leak to the Russian cosmonauts quarters at which point you'd expect them to break out some kind of infrared ultraviolet, laser space goggles or an ultra ultra ultrasonic leak detector but they used a tea bag. The cosmonauts took out a few tea leaves and let them float away in the microgravity than they sealed off their quarters and watched as the t floated toward the. Wall. Closer and closer until it was right next to a crack that was the leak which they've now sealed with the space equivalent of duct tape, it's not a permanent solution but what a triumph resourcefulness although you would've thought they'd use something from a super space toolbox instead of a supermarket but sometimes when you can't read fancy leak finding instruments, you have to read the tea leaves. You've been listening to the as it happens podcast. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC, Radio One non Sirius Xm following the world at six keeping also listen to the whole show on the CBC listen APP download it for free from the APP store or from Google play. Thanks for listening I'm Carol off and I'm Chris. For more CBC PODCASTS GO TO CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.

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#169  Omens of a Race War

Making Sense with Sam Harris

1:32:24 hr | 1 year ago

#169 Omens of a Race War

"Welcome to the making sense podcast. This is Sam Harris Okay. Let's see here brief. Housekeeping added a conversation track to the waking up course and so I started interview teachers there and other experts on topics related to meditation and the nature of mind live in an examined life that's just starting generally speaking these will be teachers experts I admire and agree with but also people who have genuine insights but may also believe a lot of cockamamie ideas that I wanNA push back on and they're also be some cautionary cautionary tales and just added one of those the former cult leader Andrew Cohen who as I made clear I don't think is merely really a fraud though he clearly created a lot of harm. I think he's a person who had some real insights and created a lot of harm anyway. I found that a very interesting conversation I think there's a lot to learn from his experience both as a student and as a teacher and that kind anything that's more narrowly focused on the contemporary of life and ethics and certainly meditation will be on the APP rather than the podcast I these days also there's a new android build coming and it will be an entirely new. I've been hearing about all the technical pain in android users have been experiencing anyway. A comprehensive fix is in the works and I will let you know when that launches what else here you're my friend. Douglas Murray has a new book out called the madness of crowds and this is a book. I am really happy he wrote. I was thinking at one point that I should write a book along these lines. He has done a much better job than I would have. This is really the rejoinder to the WO- KNESS that we've all been waiting for and it is quite a measured book Douglas. Has You know as a lacerating wit so so there are many laughs to be had at the expense of the far left but this is not a shrill or tendentious book at all. It's really just a sanity sanity check and I found a joy to read a region my blurb just give you a sense of how much I like this book. We live at a time when many of the luckiest people on on earth declare themselves among the most oppressed while seeking to oppress others in the service of a paradoxical new faith and no one is so beloved or immaculate that he or she can't be dragged before the altars of this cult and offered up as a fresh sacrifice in the madness of crowds Douglas Murray shows how the apparent virtues of social justice noticed intersection analogy and identity politics have begun to stifle honest thinking on nearly every topic in the process he displays more courage and wit and basic decency than can be found anywhere among the woke. The book is simply brilliant reading it to the end I felt as though I just drawn my first full breath in years at a moment collective madness there is nothing more refreshing or indeed provocative than sanity so I love the book and I recommend recommend you buy it. It would be great to see this book really succeed. This was a necessary book and Douglas was certainly the right man for the job. Okay final announcement here I if you're supporting the podcast please make sure you're listening on the private feed not not on public one and that means you should go to my website log in go to the subscriber content page and subscribe to the private. RSS Feed if you're on mobile you can generally do that with one click which will connect your favorite it podcast APP but we're making some changes here on the podcast and I don't want subscribers to lose access to any content so please make sure you are subscribed. If you're a supporter and you'll know the difference in your podcast player by seen a red icon for making sense podcast as opposed to a black one that is the telltale sign anyway. If you have problems uh-huh you can contact support at Sam Harris Dot Org and they will help you and in one change that's come in and it's coming now now is I will. I'll start adding an afterward. Teach podcast interview where I talk a little bit about the conversation you just. I heard I won't always do this. Perhaps sometimes I will have left everything on the field but if I have any further thoughts I will put them after sure the conversation and not up front in the housekeeping and now for today's podcast too damn speaking with Kathleen Balu Kathleen is a historian and the author of the book bring the war home the white power movement and paramilitary America and she spent ten years researching searching in writing this book she is currently an assistant professor of history at the University of Chicago and you may have heard her fresh air as I did and she's appeared on CBS news elsewhere and there was a pbs frontline documentary based on her work titled Documenting Hate New American Can Nazis Anyway. We cover a lot of ground in this episode we talk about the White Power Movement in the United States the difference between white white power and white supremacy white nationalism and white separatism and the militia movement we talk about the Turner Diaries the significance of events like Ruby Ridge and Waco the Christian identity movement the significance of so-called leaderless resistance the failures of the justice system in prosecuting union white power crimes and other topics and now without further delay. I bring you Kathleen Balu I'm here with Kathleen Balu Kathleen. Thanks for coming on the PODCAST. Thank you so we our job. Today is to talk about white power and white supremacy and white nationalism and white separatism and other joyful topics and you've written a book titled Bring the War Home The white power movement and paramilitary America and obviously this these topics are more and more in the news news as we we live yet another year in trump stan just to get our bearings your how how did how did you come to know anything about this stuff and and maybe to start. How would you differentiate the terms? I just listed. That's a great place to begin. These terms are distinct and it's Brin Brinda understand that they describe a whole range of beliefs ideologies and ways the people through the world so the big category is despite supremacy now that covers everything from individual belief systems to the different kinds of systems opportunities that Structure Daily Life Our Ajay many scholars established that America is what we might appoint supremacist nation and by that means simply that there is unable distribution should bution up resources opportunities and other owners of American life will be good look at incarceration education health all kinds of different imagine seeking us understand that now that is historical in that it's something that was established over time and we see vestiges of white supremacy in law policy on NFL individual in terms in terms of belief system from person to person now all of that big white supremacy is is much more morpheus in distinct from what irate about which is the white power movement that is a group of activists us as I should say I use activists not in any kind of positive terminology but simply describe someone who is taking action to bring about a in social change and the people that I write about are members of the Ku Klux Klan Neo Nazi groups skinheads militia groups some are radical tax protesters and some are other constructs of anti-state believe these groups came together in the aftermath of the Vietnam War and set out to wage war on the federal government. So what I write about is the period from the end of the Vietnam War to the Oklahoma City bombing that really set the stage for at the politics the present Yo so i WanNa talk about the origins of all this but you know hopefully we will have something to say about the the the nature of what's happening in the present so let's let's talk about. Oh I you just made a few distinctions that that we should clarify so you mentioned a bunch of these groups new Nazis the KKK the groups of people of heard about like the area nations and the order you alluded looted to to tax evaders. I guess I guess those are sovereign citizens. These groups are not all identical ideologically they are they. I mean how do you how do you parse this landscape and and is there a now a formal connection between all of these miscreants miss grandson and into they help one another even if they don't totally agree so this is something that the scholarship missed for quite a long time Harley through you're using an overly rigid idea what social admit should be at should look lake many social events in the late twentieth century a fragmented in the way. I described to you now the other thing that people do I think this is a very natural sort of human approach to a a belief system that you find foreign or objectionable is to try to sorted voted into categories so there's a lot of early scholarship that sort of trying to figure out how many of these people are not these how many are skinheads how many are clansman and which symbols exactly exactly it should be used by which room exactly what variety of ideology find clay's. NFL valuable to know and certainly there are differences between some of these groups but what I do is the historian is trying to understand how this movement works for people who were members of it and what you see on the ground is not strict divisions between these groups. What you see actually is a very vibrant circulation people from from group to group and between ideologies these people in this movement described their own activists and is very similar so one person sense of the on the lines of suppose? We're all Christian. It's like I'm Church of Christ. I over there is optus. We're all Christian a BRIS describe it as they're all in the armed forces that they're simply the army the navy things like this so it's it's important to have a load of understanding that allows us to see not only the distinctions but also the commonality and the fact that people moved at great frequency between different thinks Lisa's but are they all white supremacists or a and are they all white separatists or the all white nationalist today they all the stands out immediately to me. I I know very little about them but like the sovereign citizens are they even racists. Aren't they just tax evading. I'm not cases thing is as we probably want to get away from thinking about nutcase words like as early as possible because even though the people ooh that you might not agree with their acting pretty coherent worldview and set of beliefs that makes what they're doing legible the with the militia surrogates. I've seen too many of them on daytime television throwing chairs at Geraldo Rivera screaming at Sally Jesse Raphael Dating Myself Ourself for a little while and in in the moment I study they were really doing a lot of action appearances and certainly there are people in this event who I think we could all agree are are motivated by various kinds of mental disturbances as well as political ideology. There's one man I write about testified in front of that he'd been levitated tatum and speak to odd and things like this. He was leader movement. Anyhow movement is a little bit more difficult to grapple with than the earlier curious that is really the heart of my study. What I'm talking about is at the end of the nineteen