19 Burst results for "Rachel Yehuda"
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on Today in Focus
"Sensitive and so that has to be taken into consideration is not just a one way ticket wellness that can be destabilization. And kind of Heightened sensitivity after sessions as well. You know you're giving vulnerable people and legal drugs. What are the ethical considerations. You and your team have to make when you're conducting these trials that's true the we're giving vulnerable people potent drugs. I think the legality is sort of an irrelevance as a scientist. You're trying to do ethical work not do harm and to do good and so that's the science that's motivating us along. The evidence says we can do more More good than than harm here. Are there benefits to be had in fact this is a treatment that could turn someone's life around so the ethics could be turned on. Its head you know. You have a vulnerable person. Who's ina vulnerable. State is in a risky state at that time. Perhaps they have suicidal thoughts or even planning and so their life is on the line often. You know when when we see people in depression research. They talk about How they've had plans to take their life. And this might be kind of last chance saloon but absolutely people shouldn't trivialize psychedelics. Magic mushrooms are cafe. Drug in this country does that mean for using them in your research. It means is more complicated than difficult to do. The research We have to have a license from the government from the home office to have the drugs on site and there are quite a few details that we need to abide by in terms of fridge bolted to the wall and a lot of of security steps and protocols around this to pay for the license. It's only doesn't make it easy. The curious nature situation is drugs. That are a lot more harmful like opiates karachi. Actually much easier to do research with so. There is a kind of disparity the inconsistency between the homes of psychedelics versus the way the restricted The has unfortunate implications on on research from these trials. Been what results have you had so far when we looked remission rates at the end of the recent trawler we performed which had two groups one of the groups gets a conventional anti-depressant drug cooled. S italo prime. You get six weeks of that or you get randomized to the solid cyber nam and then we make a comparison and so remission rates. What percentage of people met the criteria for remission at the end of the trial. The remission rate was twice as high in the south side in group relative to the pram group at the end of the trial while the rates of self reported side effects are similar across the conditions the nature and i think that say the severity was worse in the s atallah prime group. We had a significantly higher rates of drowziness Emotional blunting sexual dysfunction and the papers reported It's now published in the new england. Journal of medicine is reported in a very conservative and cautious way but if you look at the data and you look at your simple values i mean there's no spin here you're twice as likely to be free of your depression at the end of the trial. If you received the solid side then i know that might sound incredible and it is a. It's an incredible situation that we're in i k. We should say this was a pretty small scale trial that involved fifty nine patients and in the paper you wrote about it for the new england journal of medicine e set the it'll be essential to do large and longer trials to get clear sense of how silas i been compared to establish antidepressants. How far away do you think we are robin before silence. Ibn or magic mushrooms could be prescribed to help treat depression. Yeah we might be four years away from seeing solace therapy licensed in your and north america to treat depression and in that time it's worth listeners. Realizing that sala saban therapy has just been legalized in the state of oregon. That's an expanded referred to as a special access program in canada where you can make an appeal to the canadian health authority to receive legally solid saban therapy so there changes that are already beginning to happen in progressive jurisdictions in the world coming up some of these more progressive therapies are being trialed in america we speak to a scientists there who is experimenting with mda as a treatment for ptsd in america silence. Ivan has been awarded breakthrough therapy status for treating depression which means the process for reviewing it has been sped up. The research is there haven't just been looking at. The impact of classic psychedelics. Like silence ivan figures. They've been trying to find out so could impact jains drugs like mda which is ecstasy can be used to treat post traumatic stress disorder. Dr rachel yehuda has been a leading expert in. Ptsd for over three decades. A few years ago she went to burning man festival which takes place each year in the black rock desert in nevada bringing people together to listen to music dance and for some to take drugs. Are you doing you meet a lot of different. Kind of people are burning men and you become open to new ideas. Rachel didn't go to bernie mount take drugs herself but while she was there. She started to consider the possibilities. Ecstasy could hold people who've been through trauma she met a team from maps drugs advocacy group the funds research into ecstasy and ptsd. And i had to get over my initial bias that recreational drugs probably harmful more harmful than helpful. But when you're in a place where people seem to have a lot more knowledge and experience about something then you. The best idea is to listen to what they have to say and to be open to learning something new. So how did she felt about psychedelics. Before that it just wasn't part of my world. I didn't have a negative bias about it but i also haven't had positive experiences. I do recall one thing. My son came home from festival. Once told me that he had tried psychedelics solo sivan and said to me that he was more himself on psychedelics than he had ever felt in his life. I was very intrigued by that. You know. I try to swallow my initial reaction of ono. My son took drugs right and two of more. We'll tell me more. I mean that sounds very positive in a very different response from. I think when my mom would have given. If i'd come home from festival and said i'd take mushrooms. I think she would've reacted quite differently. No i. I'm i love it when people tell me the truth The last thing you wanna do is.
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on The Sacred Womb - Use your menstrual cycle as a natural compass encoded within the body.
"To save the planet and to perpetuate and propel the evolution of the consciousness of human beings which will save the human race. We need to be able to do the generational work that will access the origins. The sources in the roots of the original splits the original separations from self from culture from lineage. From family from all the different things that that create this really severe division between us individuals and the problem globally. So for me we. We have to do the generational work because we can't just stick with the individual work number one. It will be here forever. I mean we don't have that much time on earth to to save us to save the planet to in in a way that will allow for you know the ascended human being to have somewhere to live and to live in harmony. Were trying to remember. That state of harmony can't do it unless we're doing generational healing at a global scale so to me it's it's an imperative. It's an imperative to do this way. While the individual healing has a ripple effect. So if you heal somebody in this time line it will ripple back through the lineages by virtue of the mechanism of of healing. That is somewhat mysterious. How how does healing something here. He'll something back then and vice versa. How does it. he'll are descendants. weren't even born yet. We're not sure. I mean rachel yehuda is doing all the up genetic research there's other genetic researchers trying to find out how this works but it's just crucial that we do it on this scale one to one is not enough. Small groups is not enough to change the trajectory of what's happening and to change the collective imprints that people are carrying in addition to their own individual lineage imprint. So it's just really important thing to be able to get back to the origins of these splits the origins of these dissociation from from from cell phone from sources from lineage and from humanity and from consciousness speechless lisa. I mean the the potential of this work is is that thank you actually speaking that out a naming it so us doing this work if someone's listening and interest is like how can someone do this work or how can how can this spread in a way. This sustainable well. That's what i'm working on right now. in the crm community the comprehensive resource model community meaning myself the trainers the consultants in the organization Or working really hard to develop and build this aspect of the comprehensive resource model work. Because it's it's actually a just a regular trauma processing model as well so there's a lot of us who have dedicated and committed to this big mission. It's a mission to get this kind of healing to a global scale and we are literally in the planning stages on how to take what we know works one on one or with small groups into the huge collective internationally so right now i mean people might organization. Even there's lots of people outside my organization who have the same mission and ironically finding each other. it's that universal flow that universal intelligence. That realizes there is now time and space and an opening for all of us to come together all of us who have the same mission and work together to figure out a way to get this healing out there to scale so. There's a bunch of us doing that. And i have a nonprofit foundation That is meant to facilitate this particular mission of healing to scale We also are doing on a on a more micro level. Obviously we're trying to train more therapists or goal is to train as many therapists as possible to do this kind of work. All over the world and to help those therapists do their own generational healing in order so to allow them to be clear to be clear and clean and able to step into everything that needs done for this kind of work..
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on Lex Fridman Podcast
"Were not aware of that would be not so much this Like ego dissolution or emotional what. Md may does is Reduces activity in the middle the fear processing part of the brain so it's not just chemistry but it routes energy throughout the brain in a different way increases activity in the prefrontal cortex. So you think more logically. The that i think has an enormous impact on the effect of md may The other thing it does is it increases connectivity between the middle and the hippocampus so it helps facilitate processing of things into long term memory and with ptsd traumas like never in the past. It's always about to happen and so will we. One time develop drugs that would even be specific to certain kind of memories. We're working with a woman. Rachel yehuda who is at the bronx. Va and she's done some studies that are with the epa genetics of trauma. So she's worked with holocaust survivors and their children and she has identified epa genetic mechanisms by which traumas passed from generation to the generations. Sort of like set points for anxiety fear. Certain things like that. But the question is. Can you actually transmit memories from one generation to the next now. This is not dna Changes which happen over a very long period of time and evolutionary scale but within one lifetime within some experiences your epigenetics what turns on genes are turned off certain genes that can be impacted. And that's what we know now can be transmitted from generation to generation either by the father or the mother through the sperm or the egg. So it's it's pretty Remarkable so what what. Rachel is going to try to do as empty may research. Ptsd and look at these epa genetic markers before and after and see if they change as a consequence of therapy so will we develop one day certain kinds of chemicals that will be able to bring certain kind of memories to the surface that's not inconceivable. The epa genetic angles fascinating that there will be these genetic probations that lead to memories living from one generation to.
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM
"Been used by countless cultures for centuries, perhaps millennia. For many purposes, medicinal, religious, social recreational, and so on the first synthetic who's no genic molecule. LSD was discovered by the Swiss chemist Albert Hoffman in 1938. And it came to be considered a wonder drug helpful not only in expanding consciousness but potentially treating mental illness. Before long there were thousands of medical studies underway on LSD and other psychedelic drugs. But of course drugs are Susceptible to abuse and the U. S government as part of its wider war on drugs effectively killed off that research and those drugs and many others were made illegal. For the most part, European and other governments followed. Economists think of the war on drugs as a failure. For the most part, much of the law enforcement community does as well. For the medical community. In particular, the war on drugs produced widespread collateral damage in the form of treatments undiscovered in the form of human suffering until evey ated. In the form of scientific knowledge, untainted Today that is changing. Cultural attitudes have shifted. Public policy has started to move as well, albeit haltingly and inconsistently, and scientists around the world are once again looking at these and a variety of unorthodox drugs in the hopes of finding new treatments for mental illness addiction. PTSD and other maladies. Tonight we have gathered a trio of medical researchers at the forefront of this work all three from the Mount Sinai health system Right here in New York City. They are James Murrow, Rachel Yehuda and Yasmin heard James, Rachel, and he has been good evening and thank you so much for being here. Good evening. So here's the plan. I would like to ask each of you to introduce yourselves briefly, and then we'll open up the conversation more broadly. So let's start with James Murrow. Would you tell us quickly about your research specialty and how that feeds into your clinical practice? Sure, Stephen, So I'm a psychiatrist Amount Sinai and I did my residency there. Starting in. 2005 went on to do a research fellowship and currently I direct a clinical research program focused on finding Causes and treatments for depression and related conditions such as anxiety. When I was just a trainee, then attorney he had started It was a very early research program in looking at whether ketamine could have rapid antidepressant effects and as a resident hanging around looking to get involved in something. I got involved in that Dennis Charney, we should say, is now dean of the Mount Sinai Medical School on before that he did ketamine research at both Yale and the National Institute of Mental Health. So So, James, you came to Sinai as a resident and now fast forward for us. And fast forward no more than 10 years. We and others are still doing research to understand how ketamine works, who it works for and what it can tell us about depression and point the way towards even other treatments. Maybe we haven't even thought of yet and ketamine. It is, as I understand it very popular surgical anesthetic correct. Yeah, Ketamine is ah, medicine that was synthesized and approved as an anesthetic, but also a big party drug in some points in its history s in the eighties and nineties. Maybe now it's still used recreationally. It's actually classified as what's called a dissociative anesthetic. And apparently, that's the only drug sort of approved by the FDA. That's A quote disassociative anesthetic. It causes a unique altered state of mind when taking it certain doses and sort of a hallucinogenic state. Almost and it got famous forward folks taking it at raves and things like that. Okay, So for those of you keeping score at home, that was James and he is your ketamine guy. Now let's move on to Rachel Yehuda. Rachel, would you tell us quickly about your research specialty and again how it feeds into the treatment. Well, I've been studying post traumatic stress disorder since the late 19 eighties and I've been at Mount Sinai since 1991. I think we were among the very first medical schools to establish a center for the study of traumatic stress in PTSD. And for the last 30 years, we've been investigating the biology of post traumatic stress disorder. The EPI genetics looking at resilience. And in the course of that work, we've tried a lot of treatments and done a lot of treatment trials on PTSD. And those studies haven't really provided great outcomes. And I heard about M d. M a few years ago. You have to tell us how you heard about it. Because, like a lot of people you first discovered M d m a. The burning man Festival. I understand. Yes, that is true. But my mentor and all things MGM Wass, Rick Doblin, who really encouraged me to go to the maps, training map stands for what? Please. The multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic studies, Okay? And they're largely responsible for sponsoring. All of the work that's been done. I'm damn a in the last 30 years herself and just to clarify M d M A is also known as Ecstasy and Molly and has been widely used recreationally. In Rachel. As I understand. Maps offers training program for medical practitioners who may want to use M D m a to facilitate therapy. Yes, and after I did the training and had some other experiences talking to people. I was very eager to bring it to Mount Sinai. There's so many questions about how it works. Why it works for whom it works and the whole frontier out there. Okay, let's keep circling on and covered the basics. Jasmine herd. Would you tell us a little bit about your research specialty, and especially in your case, the somewhat circuitous route Of your drug of choice and how it's used in what kind of treatment I am the director of the Addiction Institute at Sinai and my drug of choice. Actually, they're multiple We actually have one of the largest clinical addiction services in the country, treating over 6000 people with okay use disorder. And I look at addiction from the perspective of what increases risk and also a man. You're a biologist looking at what happens in the brains of people who have a substance used disorder. And can we start thinking about novel treatments? And when we looked at risk factors, you know early cannabis use we see strongly increased risk for Substance use disorders later in life as well of certain psychiatric disorders. And our animal models, you know, confirmed that when you say your animal models confirmed that that suggests that the correlation between early use and later problems is not behavioral, its chemical Yes. Correct. So these rats, for example, their mothers, you know, tell them to stay away from certain other kids. But you know, they still deserve elop. Certain sensitivities to opioids, for example, later in life. But in our animal models we study th sea, which is the part of the cannabis plant that creates the high and one day said. Let's at least look at another cannabinoid in the cannabis plant and we started looking at Cannabidiol CBD. And there, we actually saw an opposite effect. We saw it on that actually reduced, harrowing seeking behavior and the rat model, And then we started thinking well, could this potentially work? For our human subjects and started doing clinical trials. It was actually over 10 years ago before CPD became so popular, Okay, very good. So I'd love to go around one more time. And I'd like to get from you a little bit of the background or history on the drug or drugs that you studied, But I'm also curious to know how each of your drugs is unique. And by that, I mean, not just in terms of Chemical composition, but how they help a clinician. Achieve your goal. Okay, so James will start with you again and ketamine, please. Absolutely So ketamine has been known to the medical community for decades. I was actually initially synthesized to be an anesthetic and is used for that reason today widely In terms of what this molecule is its unique in terms of anesthetics and certainly very unique in terms of anti depressants. There's no antidepressant drug which acts like it does in the brain. This interferes with signalling at a specific type of receptor in the brain, called the NMDA receptor. That's very important for learning and memory and what's called neural plasticity. It seems to help brain circuits adapt to the environment. It's part of the glutamate system and glutamate is the primary transmitter in the brain, which excites neurons and makes them fire Mohr and that's basically how information is transmitted in the brain. It looks like jumping ahead a little bit from brain imaging studies and things like that, that if you give ketamine, it's sort of somehow disrupts or scrambles temporarily. The function of circuits in the brain, which ultimately give rise to consciousness. That's actually why at high enough doses, you block consciousness and people you can operate on them. And they don't actually have a memory, even though they don't go to sleep in a standard sense, like if you were to receive something else, like propofol, so people don't go to sleep. They enter some kind of what's called Disconnection State..
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on KQED Radio
"Used by countless cultures for centuries, perhaps millennia for many purposes, medicinal, religious, social recreational, and so on the first synthetic hallucinogenic molecule LSD was discovered by the Swiss chemist Albert Hoffman in 1938. And it came to be considered a wonder drug helpful not only in expanding consciousness but potentially treating mental illness. Before long there were thousands of medical studies underway on LSD and other psychedelic drugs. But of course, drugs are susceptible to abuse and The U. S government as part of its wider war on drugs effectively killed off that research and those drugs and many others were made illegal. For the most part, European and other governments followed. Economists think of the war on drugs as a failure. For the most part, much of the law enforcement community does as well. For the medical community. In particular, the war on drugs produced widespread collateral damage in the form of treatments undiscovered in the form of human suffering, unleash hated In the form of scientific knowledge, untainted Today that is changing. Cultural attitudes have shifted. Public policy has started to move as well, albeit haltingly and inconsistently, and scientists around the world are once again looking at these and a variety of unorthodox drugs in the hopes of finding new treatments for mental illness addiction. PTSD and other maladies. Tonight we have gathered a trio of medical researchers at the forefront of this work all three from the Mount Sinai health system right here in New York City. They are. James Murrow. Rachel Yehuda and Yasmin heard James Rachel and he has been good evening and thank you so much for being here. Good evening. So here's the plan. I would like to ask each of you to introduce yourselves briefly, and then we'll open up the conversation more broadly. So let's start with James Murrow. Would you tell us quickly about your research specialty and how that feeds into your clinical practice? Sure, Stephen, So I'm a psychiatrist Amount Sinai and I did my residency there started in. 2005 went on to do a research fellowship and currently I direct a clinical research program focused on finding Causes and treatments for depression and related conditions such as anxiety. When I was just a trainee, then attorney he had started What was a very early research program in looking at whether ketamine could have rapid antidepressant effects and as a resident hanging around looking to get involved in something. I got involved in that. Dennis Charney, we should say, is now dean of the Mount Sinai Medical School on before that he did ketamine research at both Yale and the National Institute of Mental Health. So So, James, you came to Sinai as a resident and now fast forward for us. And fast forward no more than 10 years. We and others are still doing research to understand how ketamine works, who it works for and what it can tell us about depression and point the way towards even other treatments. Maybe we haven't even thought of yet and ketamine. It is, as I understand it very popular surgical anesthetic correct. Yeah, Ketamine is a medicine that was synthesized and approved as an anesthetic, but also a big party drug in some points in its history s in the eighties and nineties. Maybe now it's still used recreationally. It's actually classified as what's called a dissociative anesthetic. And apparently, that's the only drug sort of approved by the FDA. That's A quote disassociative anesthetic. It causes a unique altered state of mind when taking it certain doses and sort of a hallucinogenic state. Almost and it got famous forward folks taking it at raves and things like that. Okay, So for those of you keeping score at home, that was James and he is your ketamine guy. Now let's move on to Rachel Yehuda, Rachel with you tell us quickly about your research specialty and again how it feeds into the treatment. Well, I've been studying post traumatic stress disorder since the late 19 eighties and I've been at Mount Sinai since 1991. I think we were among the very first medical schools to establish a center for the study of traumatic stress in PTSD. And for the last 30 years, we've been investigating the biology of post traumatic stress disorder, The EPI genetics looking at resilience, and in the course of that work, we've tried a lot of treatments. And then a lot of treatment trials on PTSD. And those studies haven't really provided great outcomes. And I heard about M d. M a few years ago. You have to tell us how you heard about it. Like a lot of people. You first discovered M d m a. The burning man Festival. I understand. Yes, that is true. But my mentor in all things, MGM was Rick Doblin, who really encouraged me to go to the maps. Training map stands for what? Please. The multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic studies, Okay? They're largely responsible for sponsoring. All the work that's been done. I'm damn a in the last 30 years or so and just to clarify. MGM is also known as Ecstasy and Molly and has been widely used recreationally. In Rachel, As I understand. Maps offers training program for medical practitioners who may want to use me to facilitate therapy. Yes, and after I did the training and had some other experiences talking to people. I was very eager to bring it to Mount Sinai. There's so many questions about how it works. Why it works for whom it works and the whole frontier out there. Okay, let's keep circling on and covered the basics. Jasmine herd. Would you tell us a little bit about your research specialty, and especially in your case, the somewhat circuitous route Of your drug of choice and how it's used in what kind of treatment I am the director of the Addiction Institute at Sinai and my drug of choice. Actually, they're multiple We actually have one of the largest clinical addiction services in the country, treating over 6000 people with okay use disorder. And I look at addiction from the perspective of what increases risk and also a man. You're a biologist looking at what happens in the brains of people who have a substance used disorder..
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network
"Good evening and thanks for tuning in. As you likely know there are many natural end synthetic psychedelic substances they've been used by countless cultures for centuries perhaps millennia for many purposes, medicinal, religious, social, recreational, and so on. The first synthetic hallucinogenic molecule LSD was discovered by the Swiss chemist Albert Hoffman in one, thousand, nine, thirty eight, and it came to be considered a wonder drug helpful not only. Expanding, consciousness but potentially treating mental illness. Before long there were thousands of medical studies underway on LSD and other psychedelic drugs. But of course, drugs are susceptible to abuse and the US government as part of its wider war on drugs effectively killed off that research and those drugs and many others were made illegal for the most part European and other governments followed. Economists of the war on drugs as a failure for the most part much of the law enforcement community does well. For the medical community in particular the war on drugs produced widespread collateral damage in the form of treatment's undiscovered in the form of human suffering UN alleviated in the form of scientific knowledge Annette. Today that is changing cultural attitudes have shifted. Public policy has started to move as well albeit haltingly and inconsistently and scientists around the world are once again looking at these and a variety of Unorthodox drugs in the hopes of finding new treatments for mental illness, addiction, PTSD, and other maladies to we have gathered a trio of medical researchers at the forefront of this work. All three from the Mount Sinai Health System Right here in New York City they are James Murrow Rachel Yehuda and Yasmin heard James Rachel and Yasmin good evening, and thank you so much for being here. Good. Evening. So here's the plan. I would like to ask each of you to introduce yourself briefly, and then we'll open up the conversation more broadly. So let's start with James Merle. Would you tell US quickly about your research specialty and how that feeds into your clinical practice? Sure Stephen. So I'm a psychiatrist at Mount Sinai and I did my residency there starting in two five when onto a research fellowship in currently, I direct a clinical research program focused on finding causes and treatments for depression and related conditions such as anxiety when I was just a trainee Dennis Charney, he had started what was a very early research program in looking at whether Ketamine could have rapid antidepressant effects and as a resident hanging around looking to get involved. In something I got involved in that Dennis Charney. We should say is now dean of the Mount Sinai Medical School, and and before that he did ketamine research at both Yale and the National Institute of Mental Health. So so James You came to Sinai as a resident and now fast forward for US and fast forward. You know more than ten years. We and others are still doing research to understand how ketamine works who works for and what it can tell us. About Depression and point the way towards even other treatments maybe we haven't even thought of yet and ketamine it is as I understand it very popular surgical aesthetic correct. Yeah. Ketamine is a medicine that was synthesized and approved as an anesthetic but also a big party drug in some points in its history s in the eighties and nineties maybe now it's still used recreationally. It's actually classified as what's called the anesthetic in apparently that's the only drug sort of. Approved by the FDA, that's a quote associative anesthetic. It causes a unique altered state of mind when taking certain doses and sort of a hallucinogenic state almost end it got famous Ford folks taking it at Raves and things like that. Okay. So for those of you keeping score at home that was James and he is your Ketamine Guy. Now let's move onto Rachel. Yehuda Rachel, would you tell US quickly about your research specialty and again how it feeds into the treatment? Well I've been studying post traumatic stress disorder since the late nineteen, Eighty S and I've been at Mount. Sinai. Since nine, hundred, ninety one. I. Think we were among the very first medical schools to establish a center for the study of traumatic stress and PTSD and for the last thirty years, we've been investigating the biology of post traumatic stress disorder, the epigenetics looking at resilience, and in the course of that work, we've tried a lot of treatments and done a Lotta treatment trials on PTSD. And those studies haven't really provided great outcomes. And I HEARD ABOUT MD may a few years ago you have to tell us how you heard about it. A lot of people you I discovered. MD.. The burning man festival I understand yeah. That is true. But my mentor in all things MD AMA was Rick Dublin, who really encouraged me to go to the maps training map stands for what? Please the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. Okay. and. They're largely responsible for sponsoring all the work that's been done an MD MA in last thirty years or so and just to clarify md may is also known as ecstasy and Molly and has been widely used recreationally. In Rachel I understand maps offers training program for medical practitioners who may want to use 'em. To facilitate therapy. Yes and after I did the training and had some other experiences talking to people. I was very eager to bring to mount. Sinai, there's so many questions about how it works why it works for whom it works and the whole frontier out there. Okay. Let's keep circling on and covered the basics yasmine heard. Would you tell us a little bit about your research specialty in especially in your case, the somewhat circuitous route of your drug of choice and how it's used in in what kind of treatment. I am the Director of the addiction institute at Sinai and my drug of choice actually there multiple we actually have one of the largest clinical addiction services in the country treating over six thousand people with opioid use disorder. I look at addiction from prespective of Watt increases risk, and also manure biologist looking at what happens in the brains of people who have substance use disorder, and can we start thinking about novel treatments and when we looked at risk factors, you know early cannabis use. We see strongly increased risk for substance use disorders later in life as well of certain psychiatric. And our Emma models. Confirmed that when you say you're animal models confirmed that that suggests that the correlation between early US and later problems is not behavioral. It's chemical. Yes. Correct. So these routes, for example, their mothers, you know tell them to stay away from certain other kids but you know they still develop certain sensitivities to opioids, for example, later in life. But in animal models, we studied THC, which is the part. Of the cannabis plant that creates the high and one day said, let's at least look at another cannabinoid in the cannabis plant and we started looking at kidnapping dial CBD, and there we actually saw an opposite effect. We saw it on it actually reduced heroin seeking behavior in the rap model, and then we started thinking wow could this potentially work.
Breakthrough Solutions for Anxiety, Depression and PTSD With Apollo Founder Dr. David Rabin
"This particular juncture in human history. We're in a very strange time because the most powerful evolutionary way that we express safety to one another is touching it hugs and now we're self isolate and so. How do we reconcile that? It comes out as your ability to what you were mentioning earlier. So I think I'll a big part of this is I think as you said four Sabbath. It's forcing us into a day of self reflection or three months of self reflection where this is an opportunity to be grateful for what we have and to figure out how to make. Sure this never happens again talk talk more about your research with psychedelics. And where you think this is all going so my research is ongoing presently I think going back to what we're talking about earlier with Eric handles emotional learning. I think Dr Rachel Yehuda who is an incredible researcher at Mount Sinai in the Bronx. Va took things a another step further from understanding just how Neuron Neuron structures and synapses change as we grow and learn and she actually started looking at markers on the DNA That are called epigenetics. So genetics. Dna means tends to mean in DNA when we talk about it means in the act's and Jeez that are literally the same in every single cell in our entire body except in our sperm cells for the most part however if all the DNA and all the genetic code in all of ourselves the same pretty much. How does a skin cell different for brain cell and the way the skins almost different from a brain cell is there little markings on the DNA that tell the skin? Hey Skin your skin don't make rain proteins and it tells the brain that hate your brain and your the specific part of the brain. Don't make skin proteins or any other proteins. Don't make sense for where you're located in your in the in the by albeit regulation right through epigenetics on the markers on the DNA. The answer was really passing. Rachel found that others have fat had echoed in the in the scientific sphere since then is that she found that a lot of hints that Trauma Causes Changes to stress in reward response genes a pass on overtime not only pass on overtime over the course of our lives but pass on over time generations in that ancestors of people or sorry ancestors of people who were in the Holocaust their children and great grand children and Grandchildren. As far as they went in the study they expressed similar the same. Epa genetic markings at correlated with. Ptsd as their parents who were traumatized and so then the next step was hey. Let's try this. Let's explore this a causal model in mice and they traumatize mice at very young age in a red those nights and they watch the genetic The expression marking patterns and they found that without a doubt there were significant changes to stress in reward response gene expression that occurred with that first trauma at a young age that were passed on for up to four generations a safe living before they were eventually or sorry at least four generations of safe living before they were eventually eliminated from the DNA so day ever raised these the the subsequent generations with the EPA genetic markers outside of their Genetic Pool in other words because you know we we always thought about g the one of the things about intergenerational transmission of trauma. It's something about the parent is emotionally transmitted somehow transmitted through the caretaking. They do any control like that. That's a great question I have to go back and look But I but but regardless. I think it is more realistic to not do that. Because that is not representative of what we experience in our lives. Typically in our in our lives when we're traumatized and we resolved their trauma. We do traumatize our children and so I think what's interesting in mice in mice you can. Actually you can look at all these different time points because mice don't have the same rights in our society that human humans do and you can section their brains and take samples. Dna over the course of you know all these different time points in their lives and see that you know when a mouse is born a young mouse born from traumatized parent That baby mouse before has been exposed to negative behavior from the parents still has the same or similar changes and so. I think what's most important about all? This is that trauma and a lot of the symptoms that we're experiencing as a result. Louis experiences result of trauma are not permanent. What this is showing us? Is that epigenetics. If these changes are in the EPA Genetic Code. That's a really good sign because epigenetics are modifiable by things that happen in our lives if trauma which can be defined in reductionist way as you know powerful negative intense meaningful experiences one or many and that EPA genetic changes that result in clinical expression of PTSD depression anxiety. And then we see people going through one. Two three extremely intense meaningful positive experiences with psychedelics or with amazing therapists and their symptoms are within with just three doses of medicine and a bunch of psychotherapy basically gone for years afterwards. That could only be the case if it was acting on the same part of the of the genome. And so because that's the only thing that lasts in our bodies for years and years and years passed onto roster so I think it works long right now. It's very exciting with maps and folks at Yale and in USC. And Dr Huda is. We're looking we're looking at is can psychedelic medicine. Using the proper way actually reverse the EPA genetic changes that result from trauma. And can we then use that? Study to explain how the sort of the interface between science and spirituality where where is where does healing her healing occurs by allowing ourselves to feel safe enough to heal and when we feel safe enough to heal. That's when the recovery nervous is on that's where the para sympathetic system gets resources diverted to ward it to facilitate. Hopefully what we will see as EPA genetic remodeling that restores recovery.
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on Family Secrets
"And I sort of. That was just a bombshell to May because Jason A man in the book I called Jason. Black was a presence in my life. Growing up he was a quote unquote family. Friend I've known him all my life. he was one of my mother's professors in Grad School. I stayed with his daughter in Los Angeles. The two thousand Convention Democratic National Convention. I stayed with Jason's mother in Los Angeles. When I had a tiny part in a Robin Williams movie called toys you know when I was in middle school my immediate question. My Dad was had on your son and he said Oh I remember the night of conception didn't didn't miss a beat I said. Oh that's kind of interesting all right but okay very confident about that and I go back to my mother. Dad said you had an affair with Jason and the whole thing quickly started to unravel and I asked you know. Did it begin after I was born? No Okay and I'm sort of. I remember sitting with her. And her apartment apartment grownup grown up in sort of having this conversation and feeling like you're getting closer to just stay crazy revelation. But I had no idea you know going into this. I thought I was going to get the same reassurance that my dad give me. My Dad had been almost dismissive of my question. Yes of course you my son I remember the night of conception which what everyone thinks about that answer like He. He seemed very confident delivering. That and I sort of just assumed i. It didn't even dawn on me that my mom might actually not give an answer that was as reassuring but I just kept pushing as asking. How do you know Dad's you know my my father who's WHO's my father? I keep asking this question. Who's my father and she says you know I choose like why do you need to know that you know she says Stephen is the man who raise you. Why do you need anything more than that? And then you know I I think I think that was the answer. That just kind of blew me over because I realized at that point Holy Shit. This conversation is going in a direction. I never could possibly anticipated. And she just. She kept refusing to answer. That question I I got started getting very senator and finally kept demanding. Like who's WHO's my father. My father and she said Jason. Now who do you think it is I should I who do you think I don't know for sure this and that? Who Do you think it is? I kept insisting I remember Mother is a sense. Who Do you think it is even if you never did a DNA Takashi? I've got the sense. She was hiding behind this kind of veneer of the lack of certainty medical certainty or something. Who Do you think it is Jason? Okay that answer just Totally floored me and I looking looking down at my hand. I mean it's still recent enough. I mean that conversation was in two thousand six but the impact of it lasted so many years after this. He'll still ask that. I can remember I can put myself in a frame of mind of what that did to me and I just sort of had this experience then as I had many times later of just like looking at my hands looking at my body looking in a mirror and just feeling like who is this. What is this body that I'm inhabiting? This doesn't feel like this is. It doesn't feel like my body anymore. It feels like a strangers body And I it just totally upended my and shook my sense of identity my sense of self in ways that I had not even faintly begun to grasp in that moment I mean. I don't think it took me many many years to begin to process. Just devastating a revelation. That was in that moment. I didn't even know how to process them. And in that moment you were how old twenty five right. Family Secrets is sponsored by audible. You very likely have already been swept up in Adam. Frankl's really remarkable story and is telling his story what I would urge you to do. Is after you have listened to this podcast and of course rate it and given it all five stars that you go onto audible and you download. Adams debut books survivors. Though Adam does not narrate the survivors it is a remarkably accomplished and beautiful and ozone moving story of generational trauma and the legacy of families painful past and the discovery of who he is in the wake of a life changing revelation about his own origins. I cried multiple times both in my conversation with Adam and while I was working on this episode Adams Story and my own have a lot of similarities. But that's only really a part of it. It's just a very beautiful human story of a reckoning and of his son struggling to understand from whom and where he comes from so I highly recommend it and I hope you'll listen to it on audible as soon as you finish listening to family secrets. Get your first three listens free with a thirty day trial. That's one audiobook plus to audible. Originals FOR FREE TO VISIT AUDIBLE DOT COM SLASH. Danny to get started. It's trauma expert. Rachel Yehuda who atom interviews years later for his book describes trauma as best understood as a watershed event that defines your life and divides it into a before and after it strikes me that for atom this moment of realizing that his beloved Dad and his dad's family whom he emulated and so greatly admired were not his biological family that he comes from someone in somewhere else entirely that he hasn't the truth of himself all his life is precisely that traumatic watershed event. The divide as Dr Yehuda describes it between before and after I think it sort of gave me permission in a way to acknowledge the pain of what I've experienced and to find a way forward because I've thought about trauma in many other ways first of all my grandparents were Holocaust survivors. Right nothing and it is true. There's no comparison to be made between that in any other. You know anyone who Any other form of trauma apart from genocide or war and conflict in In a time where we have people going and serving in Iraq and Afghanistan overseas. That's trauma when I thought when I think about trauma. Ptsd I think about that thing. About gun violence All of these sorts of things and I was very reluctant to think about this as trauma for that reason. I didn't want to would never install would never try and compare. It's not about comparing any of these things. It's about just acknowledging that there are different forms of trauma and I was wary to do that. It almost felt you know indulgent self. Pity I don't know something But when when Rachel said that to me it did it. Sort of lighten me up. And how many years had elapsed between this before and after moment was your mother and that conversation with Rachel issued a decade right so dark so you absorb this pretty on absorbable information about yourself and then you continue on with your life. You don't talk about it. You don't tell your data and what do you do well? It's like secrets in our family. You absorb the secret and you move on you. Don't you don't deal with it. I mean you know you don't ask you know that family name is not the family name. Don't ask questions. Don't tell anybody you know when I was a kid. There was a story about my grandmother in the war is hiding in a bunker that they dug out behind the house and a baby was smothered. Because the baby's cries they feared might attract the Nazis who were sticking their bayonets into the walls and the house while they were in hiding. So the baby's own mother. Might you know one of my great aunts. Smothered her child adhere. This question he start to ask questions. Don't know questions you know. Don't don't ask any more about this. You know these sort of secret. This is my frame of reference for processing secrets but those are other people secrets. Frankly and then this. So there's that layer of just sort of when there's a secret you don't Kinda probe you just kind of absorb it and move on and then there was the just the overwhelming intensity of this. I didn't know what to do with it. And one of my many reactions to it was fury at my mother So I more or less stopped talking to her. She proceeded to have a very bad response to whether.
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on The Healing Place Podcast
"Right? Yeah well it's been very powerful and and again like you just said helping men in grow. I guess my relationship with my mom In this in watching my mom he'll and and reach these these places in herself with her relationship with her mother. Oh my gosh is just been again. Makes my heart full of joy to know that she's going to leave this earth with with with peace or at least more peace than she would have had had. She not started to deal with us. Well what I love about that too. Is that when when our mothers gained piece we we'd benefit from that. It's just incredible. It's energetic. Her body and our body is linked. It just is and so we inherit her nervous system and some of her resilience and some of her trauma in Utero and and then as we grow with her between we also get to inherit her healing another sometimes in their learning in. They're going. They're so excited they're like wait to go tell. My daughter is said you know you might not need to tell. Her Hewlett just go be it indoors much about telling her your behavior will tell her so so now just to what about those who whose mother have passed or who they just cannot act or don't their their boundaries are going to be violated if they do what what were or advice to have for them at such a great question. Thank you for asking. Yeah because now. What we're talking about is third degree mother hunger in some way. So it's too so we can have a mother who's no longer on the planet but maybe she was wonderful. So that's GonNa be a different kind of healing some into separate these two okay having mother who is on the planet but who is harmful. We can't go to her for healing. It's not a good idea at all. This can be someone Who never offered us any nurturing any protection and any guidance. So she's not she's not safe and she's not healing and she's not changing we don't we're not gonNA change with her so in my first book which was written for women who are recovering will identifying recovering love addiction and sex addiction. I talked about how you've gotta go into withdrawal. Would I have since realized since writing? That is since the mother was the I love. That's where we have to go into withdrawal. If she is an unsafe person we have to go into withdrawal. We have two completely separate from her for a beer a period of time and just like with any addiction. I I start. With ninety days generally is longer and detox literally detox from her interventions and from our yearning to to reach her in whatever way in in some people have to calling her texting her aft to stop that little girl inside that keeps going to empty well for water. Oh my gosh I just want to interrupt for one second because in July twenty and eighteen standing on top of a mountain in Colorado visiting my son who had moved out there I received the phone call from my sister saying moms in the hospital yet again and detoxing and went on a five day drinking bid and I said I'm done and I walked away for three months and I didn't call her and I didn't see her and I did. I said I cannot do this anymore. Unit I knew. And that's an for three months. You said ninety days I was like. Oh my gosh. For three months I did not talk to her world. Stand for you. Oh My Gosh. It was one. It was incredibly difficult. I'm not going to lie. So who's very hard to do because I cried my eyes out because I felt like how can I abandoned my elderly mother. How can I do this to someone? Who's obviously hurting in need of healing and pain and I work as a healer. I work this is what I do. How can I turn my back on my mother but I also knew I could no longer go in and save the day for her. I could no longer be. She had to be your own hero. She was the one that to do this. And when I just kept telling myself this and then three months later when she reached out my phone rang and for whatever reason I answered it and it's just been beautiful. We've been in a beautiful place ever since spent yesterday with her and we just laugh and we enjoy each other's company and it's just. It was a much needed detox. I'm so grateful that you told that story. Thank you because I think that really illustrates what I'm saying that sometime. You have to take a break and in meet the anguish of being motherless for period of time and then if your mother's making changes like yours is you can come back your differentiates different and you get to start again. So I've seen that happen. Different ways like women will go into a detox if their mother's not doing any changing there's not necessarily reengagement sometimes there is and I have different frameworks for how to re engage. You know the first one would be treat your mother like you. Do your favorite Barista at starbucks. Just very polite but you don't tell her the details of your life because she's not going to be a safe person that and that seems to work really well after a woman's come through detox and realized she no longer can go to her mother as a daughter. You don't you just. Don't think of her as a mother I did you find out their mothers. So that's the work that's that's long lasting takes awhile. It's hard to find someone and grieve what you didn't have. Yes but women do it and So that I think am I answering the question about well. Absolutely yes with Still on the planet still alive if mom is gone and she was a lovely mother that is just a empty void that will be forever ongoing work. All of the actually is forever ongoing work. Frankly but if she died and she was I was just writing the section daughters who experienced different forms of abuse from their mother Sometimes experience for death is a relief especially if the mother was sexually abusive particularly shameful legacy for daughter. So there's sometimes so much relief that the healing is Fairly fluid but if she died so young that her daughter didn't have enough time with her. Then there's a lot of grief as well as the need to rebuild with other mothers so there are similarities in grief their similarities in meeting other mothers but then what the mother was like informs the the grief process which is really what mother hunger is is a form of disenfranchised grief. Do you know what I mean by disenfranchised yes right yes as far as it were you talking about Well I'll let you explain it before I try to guess it well because I think that it's one of those things that we're talking more about but a lot of people don't know about it. Let's just I think. Let's think of cancer. If I were to tell you right now that I just got diagnosed with breast cancer in I'm in kind of the third or fourth degree stage that this pretty serious. I think instantly you would be feeling. Oh my you have a lot facing you. How can I be supported? That's not the case. When a woman has mother hunger it's disenfranchised grief because it's not acknowledged by the culture in fact it's almost frowned upon by the culture. We don't have a bunch of support groups out there and instantly people don't say how can I help you? They're like what's your problem. You don't appreciate your mother right. So it's very risky to talk about. People might shame you for having ambivalent feelings about your mother. Anger rage sadness in so the loneliness adds to the grief. And that's why I call it. Disenfranchised so it prolongs the healing. It's almost more clear. If your mother's dead people can understand. Oh that's awful but if you're kind of understand who do you tell that to right and and you're you're so very right as I told you before we recorded on that open book and so I've put put my mom's journey in mine out on Social Media. Facebook page my personal but the podcast. But it's been this roller coaster ride of just chaotic healing. As I like to call it buds. Most people have been pretty supportive but there have been people who have unfriendly or out and said you're horrible human being for putting your mom's story out there she sweet. She's so beautiful she's so wonderful and I said yes but but this disease her alcoholism You know sometimes monsters can live in little old ladies and so Yeah and we would have these. I will try to engage in conversations with people about it because I want to shine a light on it. Like you're doing that. This is happening and people. Women are hurting Because their mother needs healing and they are lost without this person. This connection. So yeah that's really well said and I'm really impressed with your courage and bravery because I don't think it doesn't feel good to have someone not appreciate what we're doing And it takes a lot of courage to be out there in the arena reminds me of my favorite quote from Brunei Brown. Who says if you're not at their slugging it out in the arena? I don't WanNa hear from you. I love that feels like to be a target and to be carrying a message that might make you unpopular. You really have no business weighing in right. It's hurtful now if you are out there and you do what it feels like. You've got something that might help what I'm doing. Even if it's criticism bring it. We can engage in a conversation about exactly exactly think when it comes to our mothers and daughters and just as a word about alcoholism. I just kind of want to say that What we're really carrying is decades generational wounding living in patriarchal culture. So every woman who was first daughter who becomes a mother is bringing her own wound from her mother and her mother and they've all grown up with patriarchal wounds to some of them are over sexual wounds. Some of them are simply not a voice or being silenced. Not being appreciated and that legacy We can learn a lot from understanding the nature of EPA genetic trauma so for people that are inclined to to know more about that. I think the person who's doing the most dynamic research is Dr Rachel Yehuda out of Mount Sinai. She started studying Holocaust. Children Children of survivors. Who were showing the same symptomology of the post traumatic stress that their parents and looking at how the EPA genetic EPI literally means over so over the gene so it's actually gene transformation not actually the gene itself changing but and change the genes food can change genes. Maternal FACIAL. Expressions can change our genes. So if you have a mother who's frightened. Her face is gonNA carry that fear her infants. GonNa pick it up in so if you've got a grandmother that was tortured and was frightened. Her granddaughter is likely going to pick that up. So that research. If you WanNa Science Rachel has now what she's done. It's even just as invigorating for my work with other hunger is. She studied the infants blunt. Mothers who were at Ground Zero on nine eleven and those mothers who were in their late trimester their last three months of pregnancy their children's show signs of the horror that their mother experienced in utera. They were picking up high levels of Cortisol. All which is what is the hormone process to flee or fight or befriend. Those infants were getting flooded with it. Essentially having a panic attack..
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on STEM-Talk
"<Music> Thank <SpeakerChange> you. <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> Oh <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> ask <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Speech_Music_Female> <Advertisement> <Music> <Advertisement> <Speech_Music_Female> <Advertisement> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Advertisement> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Advertisement> <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Speech_Music_Female> stem mm-hmm <Speech_Male> stem. Talk <Speech_Male> the Research <Speech_Female> Rachel's done over <Speech_Male> the past. Three decades <Speech_Male> has absolutely <Speech_Male> truly pioneered <Speech_Female> new ways for us to <Speech_Male> treat stress <Speech_Female> and she has done <Speech_Female> as much as anyone. He <Speech_Female> <Advertisement> went out there to help us understand <Speech_Female> <Advertisement> what's happening <Speech_Female> <Advertisement> to people who suffer <Speech_Male> <Advertisement> such debilitating <Speech_Male> <Advertisement> disorders like P tst. <Speech_Male> This is such <Speech_Male> a great interview <SpeakerChange> and her <Speech_Music_Male> work is so incredibly <Speech_Male> important. It <Speech_Male> absolutely is important. Important <Speech_Music_Male> work very <Speech_Music_Male> very interesting <Speech_Male> as well. Although <Speech_Male> research on intergenerational <Speech_Male> transmission <Speech_Male> of TRAUMA <Speech_Male> EFFECTS VIA EPA <Speech_Music_Male> genetic mechanisms <Speech_Male> in people <Speech_Male> has really only only <Speech_Music_Male> just begun. <Speech_Music_Male> The potential <Speech_Music_Male> applications <Speech_Male> of this research <Speech_Music_Male> are quite exciting. <Speech_Male> The term <Speech_Male> groundbreaking gets <Speech_Male> tossed around so <Speech_Music_Male> much. These days <Speech_Music_Male> that it's become comma <Speech_Music_Male> kind of a cliche <Speech_Music_Male> unfortunately <Speech_Music_Male> but when it comes <Speech_Music_Male> to the Research <Speech_Music_Male> Rachel has done. <Speech_Music_Male> This term groundbreaking <Speech_Male> is <Speech_Male> genuinely <SpeakerChange> <Speech_Music_Male> justified. I <Speech_Female> <Advertisement> agree and if V <Speech_Female> enjoyed this interview as <Speech_Music_Female> much as cannon I did <Speech_Music_Female> we invite you to visit <Speech_Music_Female> the stem talk web page <Speech_Music_Female> where you can find the show notes <Speech_Music_Female> for this and other <Speech_Music_Female> episodes stem <Speech_Female> talk that. US <Speech_Male> This is Don <SpeakerChange> Cornelius signing <Speech_Male> <Advertisement> offer. Now Mrs this <Speech_Male> is Ken Ford <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> saying goodbye <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> until we meet <Speech_Music_Male> again <SpeakerChange> on <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> stem talk. <Music> <Advertisement> <Music> <Music> <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> Thank you. You're <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> listening to stem talk. <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> We want this <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> podcast to be discovered <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> by others. <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> So please <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> take a minute to go to <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> itunes to rate <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> the podcast <Speech_Music_Male> and perhaps even writer review <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> more <Speech_Music_Male> information about this <Speech_Music_Male> and other episodes <Speech_Male> can be found at our website <Speech_Male> stem talk <Speech_Male> dot. US <Speech_Male> there you can also <Speech_Male> find more information <Speech_Male> about guests. <SpeakerChange> We interview <Music>
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on STEM-Talk
"So Rachel I understand that your new interests that you're very excited about is. MD assisted psychotherapy for PTSD. We recently interviewed Dr Dave Raven who has spent spent more than a decade studying the impact of chronic stress in humans. And you're collaborating with Dave and others on an EPA genetic study comparing different PSYCHEDELIC therapies with non medicine techniques for for treatment resistant. PTSD and as we learned. Dave like you is very excited about the potential of MD AMA assisted psychotherapy before. We talk about your collaboration with Dave. Can you give our listeners sense of wire so excited about this novel approach to treatment. Oh yes all you have to do is read the data that came out of the face to trials and you cannot get excited about the fact that sixty eight percent of people that were treated in those trials no longer met criteria cheering for PTSD and maintained their gains even one year later no treatment for PTSD in my lifetime has produced those kinds effects. So thing it's really something to get excited about absolutely and the MD.. Ama study that you and others are collaborating on what they've raven has starred it's face three trial with FDA day talked to us about some of the dramatic outcomes that occurred in face to. You're just talking about. Can you give listeners. Overview of what's going on with this study and how. MDA India may could be licensed and actually become a medicine. Yes so so the MD May trials are in face three and if the results are you've never as good at phase three as they were in phase two than I think it would make a compelling case for getting an FDA approval and what's so fascinating to me about about the MDA assisted psychotherapy is that it really allows us to change the paradigm of how trauma treatment should be done and and in a way that makes so much sense to me because when you think about it people have post traumatic stress disorder symptoms because a gigantic event occurred. That released stayed with them and I think that therapy should also be a gigantic killing event. That then stays with them. And what happens is With MD AMA is that you have the combination of a very powerful and intense psychological intervention on the sessions. Sessions are about eight hours long and there's a lot of preparation and integration around those sessions coupled with psychedelic which has the opportunity of altering one state of consciousness and creating the optimal environment for change by allowing a lot of the Emotions that usually we come up and prevent people from engaging with trauma to be held at bay so when people receive. MDA they feel less ashamed unless guilty and it's like all the doors that usually have that really prevent you from accessing the trauma all the fears that you have that the trauma will bring up too much coach really negative emotion. The kind of quieted down all of those portals and it allows you for a certain period of time to really be able all to access traumatic material and look at it in a different way. So it's a very powerful combination and then when you're done people report really feeling dramatically better and so the way that I guess I like to think about it or talk about it is that it's analogous to having an experience slight giving birth rate which is a very log in intense period where you have contractions and you're going through labor and it's for the purpose of bringing something fourth fourth and it can take a few hours and it's not always pleasant but the people by your side at that time our coaching you through labor and are are helping you trying to deliver something thing. You're doing most of the work. I think it's the same thing is true with trauma treatment that there's something that you have to confront you have to feel your feelings. You have to get in touch with the fact that something terrible happened. That made you feel very vulnerable and afraid and with these forty five minute or even ninety minute sessions that you have week after after week after week. It's almost like you're starting and stopping each time. And you're not really able to have this opportunity to have continuous breakthrough. So when I saw those those videos at the At the maps training. I just really got it that it takes time. You have to sit by someone side while they are in an optimal state that is conducive for doing the work. That is probably best done all at once. I mean we have a lot of models for this surgeries of model for this pregnancy's model for does does and maybe for trauma treatment. Maybe this is a new paradigm for psychotherapy that you get in the best possible mental state. That is induced by psychedelics. Likes and you go and I don't think either of those things alone has the same power that they have been combination and so really excited for the possibility of it so sort of on that theme. Actually I read somewhere in interview where you said something like my career has been enhanced by the fact that early on nobody nobody believes much in. PTSD and well now. I almost think that we've become a victim of our own success in many ways. Because I think we've ended up really pathologising in it to a large extent. I find that really interesting. If it's inaccurate quote could you elaborate on that yet. Sounds like something I would say I think I think what I meant by that. First part of the quote was that there's a tremendous advantage in studying something that no one else is studying and many people don't don't even think is a real thing and it was my experience early in my career that many peop- ball wondered about whether ptsd was a real diagnosis. That wasn't already already covered in mood and anxiety disorders more generally and in fact I think some of the unique biologic aspects of. PTSD has really helped make the argument demint that PTSD can be very distinct from other kinds of syndromes like mutterings -iety disorders which often ironically co occur with PTSD tst. So I think that I had this advantage because I was doing work in a field that nobody was paying much attention to. But now everyone's paying attention to it and So what I mean by victim of its own success is that I sometimes wonder whether we're too quick to give somebody somebody a label. That pathology is a normal human reaction to adversity and the question is really how long after exposure to Trauma Rama when you're dealing with the aftermath for what period of time Mrs just a normal recalibration. That isn't kind of an illness that needs to be intervened intervened with an a medical way. So it's more of a comment about wanting to see trauma treatment or approaches to healing Ling. Be shared outside of traditional psychiatry particularly in the early phases where we can use community supports and really just try understand what what components of the response are part of just normal human struggles with adversity and trying to recalibrate and getting one's ground around back. We're trying to understand the impact in how to go forward with the new normal does does that make sense. Absolutely event I relate to that I share the a yearly career experience of studying something that many people thought did not exist or was in fact impossible I'm a researcher and Dada and now at this point in my career. It's the opposite problem. It's widely overestimated and Zina sort of magic beans. The Transition Shen has been amazing. Yeah I think that there are certain really intransigent. PTSD cases they look different. They feel different down some of the stuff that can be labeled as PTSD. But probably don't reflect this kind of an entr e discount of an entrenched biologically logically dis- regulated disorder but actually just represent the process which may end up resolving. So I just want to be very careful. There is such a delicate nuanced balance between stigmatization invalidation. Sometimes absolutely and so I. I JUST WANNA make sure we keep struggling to get that right. It's a really great point Rachel as much as you enjoyed. Philosophy of he is a youth. Were very glad that you decided to become a scientists because your body of work is incredibly impressive and impactful however I understand that a fate intervened and and suddenly you could no longer be a scientist. You would want to be a musician. Is that right. I would love to be a musician. Actually my my dream is to be part of Jolie. Dues News Band Hero of mine. Apparently you have a little bit of experience appearing on stage as a singer and we actually have a youtube youtube video of you which linked to our show notes appearing on stage at the annual meeting of the International Society of Psycho Neuro endocrinology. That was in New York City and the saw that you saying saying was titled The Grant Song and what I would like to know is. Did you write the lyrics to that awesome song. Yes I wrote it. In collaboration with the people that performed formed with me Two magnificent human beings at Dr David Spiegel and Dr Tom Nyland and we wrote it together. We wrote a lot of songs together. Other will not a lot but we wrote a few Like disclaimed his. Your gland porn ship has tough tall part and fund it is this David Spiegel from Stanford. Yes very talented musician. He's wonderful and he was in an earlier episode soda stem talk a whole band for me. Get your whole band gotta have a band reunion. Yeah well Rachel this has been a lot of fun and once you decide to retire from Mount Sinai. We think you have a great future as a singer Songwriter. And we'll be looking forward to hearing your clever songs. Thank you very much. Yeah thanks Rachel. There's been a great interview..
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on STEM-Talk
"Do sure. I mean when I first started there. Wasn't that much of a critical mass or a big big presence of people that were interested in trauma and PTSD was in the early nineties and work on PTSD was just getting started. But I was in the OFFI A and we established a clinical program for post traumatic stress disorder in the Bronx. Va and we developed a research program to Examined some of the biologic aspects of. PTSD around the cortisol system. And then as I became interested also in Holocaust survivors. We opened up a clinical program for Holocaust survivors and then We were able to expand it at at one point. We offered a services for a child trauma and for women who had been sexually abused. We kept expanding. A different people wanted to do research and Got Different grants and pretty soon. We became A Pretty Large Division that had a clinical component and a very active wet lab and science component and so we have been evaluating biomarkers of risk and resilience and we've been examining different kinds of clinical strategies for PTSD Out We've looked at many different kinds of populations were very interested in molecular studies and brain imaging and all sorts of things like that. so that's fantastic Rachel and just kind of want to go back over and just talk about what happens in the body in response to stress so when people are confronted was extreme stress. Abbadi initiates is a series of chemical reactions and physiological responses. And can you give the listeners overview of what's happening inside their body physiologically hormonally chemically when they find themselves in a very stressful situation. Well the classic fight or flight response is something that we understand very well. We happens in lots of different species. It's has been very well studied. It really starts with the brain being very responsive to sensory information hearing something smelling something seeing something thing that makes you startle initially take notice and followed by activation of the sympathetic nervous system in the Paris. Pathetic nervous the system and then I was alantic dairy adrenal access. What that really means? Is that the body mounts. Tremendous Hormone physiologic response. Glad to give you what you need to be able to either flee the situation Hor fight your way through it sometimes. The smartest situation is to simply freeze. He's but it's the idea that a lot of systems become activated to help you cope with the current demands wherever they are and also helped by Kinda dampening down other other kinds of biological reactions that may be occurring at the time so as to maximize all the energy towards the immediate response so in psychiatry and mental health seems that symptoms of trauma are often treated as psychological symptoms. At least in the past that seems to have been the case. But aren't you finding that people who suffer trauma. I also have physical problems as well. Yeah it's all connected. I mean Even many years ago people were talking about the impact of stress on medical medical illnesses. You even twenty thirty years ago few went to your physician and you add cardiac disease or if you had any kind of a medical illness. The doctor would ask ask you about stress and suggest that if you reduce the stress despite result an improvement in your medical condition think that we still operate under that paradigm same as we are able to look now using big molecular approaches to study the impact of trauma and PTSD. We see that a lot of the genes that may he implicated in trauma and PTSD are related to immune function and are related to functions. That are not only about how the brain works. But a the how the body works as well. So the cycle the so called psychological symptoms or the behavioral symptoms are just part about really much larger reaction the action that the body has to challenge so richly. You've been the director of the Mental Health Patient Care Center at James J Peters Veteran Affairs Medical Center in the Bronx Bronx Securitas a little. Bit about the work that you do there. Oh yes sure I had started out in the early nineties as the director of the PTSD program there and then there was an opening the patient Care Center director left for another job and so I took the position mostly as an opportunity. Ready to really try to help all veterans with mental health problems so it's at A. Va there are two hundred. People in mental health and many most of them are clinicians and clinicians treat a wide variety of mental health problems in combat veterans or even non become veterans and. I think that there's these receive really excellent. Care the Bronx. Va Very caring. Clinicians suggest as an aside aside at agency we work with a lot of veterans. Many of whom have been diagnosed with. PTSD and as you pointed out there. Numerous biological systems that are altered in association with PTSD and Resilience Hover. There only a few approved pharmacological treatments for PTSD and they're really no proof medications to enhance resilience to stress stress. Can you talk about this a little bit. Yeah I mean I think that's a very sad reality. In the beginning. It looked like there would be more drug development and PTSD Right now the only medications that are approved for the treatment of PTSD through the FDA are antidepressants antidepressants. The what we call. S Our eyes on and they are used quite liberally in the treatment of PTSD by many people that take these medications still have their PTSD fifty and so we really need to advance ourselves in trying to understand with everything that we've learned about the biology of PTSD. How can that knowledge be translated into effective treatments and so there seems to be this disconnect by how much progress we've made in understanding that? PTSD really does have a brain biology and really does have molecular basis and his real from a very strong biological perspective and yet we haven't been able to translate slate any of the biologic information to into a viable target of for drug development. So I think that there is some work being done in this area but we really need to be harnessed the information from biological studies towards treatment development. I'm curious about about a study published. In two thousand thirteen that showed psychotherapy could also alter epigenetics. That seems fascinating. Could you talk a little bit about the study Yes it was a small study. We had been funded to examining biomarkers before and after treatment I was a psychological treatment. Called prolonged exposure is cognitive behavioral therapy. And we've been very interested in whether or or not you can either predict who's going to respond to a certain treatment whether it's psychological or medical and whether when they do respond they look different from a biologic perspective whether you either restore something that is has been altered in association with PTSD or whether you he developed a whole set of biological Manifestations that are associated with resilience so as a pilot just as we were learning about the the field of epigenetics we decided to look at to Stress Related Genes. One is the accord accord. Receptor gene and one is the F. KP VP five. Jeanette spoke about earlier. We decided to measure a small region of each of these genes before and after treatment everybody received the same treatment which was prolonged exposure. There were only sixteen people in the study that had completed the prolonged exposure therapy and we compared those those who had responded to the prolonged exposure. Therapy by no longer having. PTSD to those who were still symptomatic. And what we found was was that the glucocorticoid receptor every genetic marks predict who would respond but the KP five at the genetic mark was associated with recovery. So that was very exciting and so In the last few years we've been trying to replicate that and bigger scale and also adding other measures to it so again. This is the kind of work that I think. Many people are engaged in right now. But it's the kind of work that is going to be able to tell us a a lot about mechanisms of recovery. Whether different people are going to respond to different types of therapies weather the pathways that are associated with healing healing are different pathways than the ones that are associated with developing symptoms or weather when people feel better. You're just reversing the the networks that are associated associated with Soms in the first place so I think we're going to know a lot in the next few years about this because I think many many people are engaged gauged. Doing this kind of work and from single blood sample is possible to look at a lot of different things and a lot of people are using brain imaging to also ask questions questions about how the brain is different before and after treatment with either medications psychotherapy following up on that. How do you think your work? And the work of others could change the way as a society. We approaching treat chronic health conditions. I'm wondering if it's possible that much what we're experiencing in terms of physical mental illness as a society at large could be in a sense manifestations of trauma causing changes deputy genetic memory emory that we perhaps have lost touch with over time. Do you have any Thoughts in either direction. That stuff is learned through careful. Animals studies in there are a lot of really important scientists who are in that space. We're just trying to apply that to people but I do believe that. It is certainly possible for the children of trauma survivors to carry effects from their parental trauma. And I do wonder how much and what is carried in any individual is a function how the experiences of of the previous generation or even previous generations impact you know how do we carry the legacy of our parents and our ancestors and this is such an exciting question for me and it's so potentially benchley important because what it means is that we really have the ability to take information that occurs as a result ultimate experience and really carry it forward and really be the key to understanding. I think human resilience if we can just unpack that.
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on STEM-Talk
"I find it fascinating That the effects of something something. That happened a long time. AGO would still be present in the here and now and particularly in the next generation and dumb. You've looked at this in a variety you've from a variety of different angles. You sort of shown that These effects could transform not only the narrative of a person's life but related their physiology energy and The fascinating Do you have any Further elaboration on that. Well I think that the whole construct of PTSD was really about trying to make that statement. That's something that happened a long time ago. Even as an adult can have transformative transformative lingering effects and when you really think about it this is different than the paradigm that we had in stress of the fight or flight response ons because the fight or flight response is an immediate response that lasts for a short period of time. Just enough time so that you can make a decision about how you're going to respond to an immediate challenge but really the things that happen to us do changes in many ways we're constantly interacting with our environments and our environments Sir providing a lot of growth a lot of experience. And this idea that something that happened a long time ago could still be present in the here and now I think is a really powerful idea. And it's only in the last few years that science has provided us with the tools from molecular biology to be able to really really ask that question by measuring molecules measuring molecular processes so. I think it's a very exciting time to be able to understand. Stand these phenomenon absolutely. It's a whole different perspective than had previously held by. Most People Rachel. This might be a good time to back up and talk about your two thousand five study with women who were pregnant in the World Trade Center during nine eleven and the two thousand five study was particularly interesting because it shows that mothers who were stressed during pregnancy can program the stress response of their offspring in Utero. I'm curious how this study came about first of all and also how did you collect the pre trauma cortisol levels levels in these women. Oh Gosh thank you for asking so that I can clarify that We did not have pre-traumatic Cortisol 's in the women. The story is is that after nine eleven many medical institutions. Were trying to figure out ways that they can both help and study. The victims of nine. Eleven and Mount Sinai had a program for environmental stress and there was a real concern about Exposure to toxins if she were down by the World Trade Center site. I got a call from somebody who worked in their program. That said we're trying to a monitor women through their pregnancy of. Just make sure that they. I haven't been exposed to anything problematic but we're noticing that many of these women have a lot of psychological symptoms. Is there something that we could look at Do think that it's post traumatic stress disorder. A lot of women are also worried about the impact that their exposure during pregnancy may have on their babies season so happened a few weeks after nine eleven and we decided that we would follow women throughout their pregnancies and we would give them questionnaires and then after their babies were born when they came for their first wellness visit which was seven months after they were born. We would examine symptoms Adams in the mother and also take salivary cortisol levels from the mothers and their babies. And what we found was the cortisol levels were lower in the mothers is that had post traumatic stress disorder. That was nice to see. We already knew. Cortisol was slow in many people with. Ptsd what we were surprised to find. was that the mothers others with Lower Cortisol also had babies who showed lower cortisol levels at seven months. The babies that showed the lowest cortisol levels scoreboard women who had been exposed during their third trimester. So what we learned from that study was that exposure to trauma during pregnancy in May in some way shape the cortisol response of their baby is a cortisol uniformly a uniform really low in those with PTSD. Or is there a substantial person to person variation. Yeah Uniform Liza very big word for Biological Psychiatry Kaya Tree and certainly for PTSD. So I would say that low cortisol is not found in every one but it is found in a strong group of people that have post post traumatic stress. Disorder is what one hears about elevated Cortisol in groups like first responders or some a military organizations right so I don't doubt that some people would have elevated cortisol levels at baseline if they're in middle of responding if turn mill of responding they're experiencing high stress and there's no real reason that somebody who's actively responding to stress wouldn't have elevated invaded cortisol levels infra spenders and soldiers may not be expressing post traumatic stress disorder. Because they're in the moment so that is very important distinction also when we say that PRISONS WITH PTSD generally have lower basal cortisol levels important to understand Dan that under stress. They can mount even higher cortisol responses. And so it's not that the audrain was broken in any way it's that the system is now how very very sensitive and that cortisol receptors glucocorticoid receptors are functioning with war responsiveness. The big story. He is not in the hormone levels but really in the recalibration of the system. Maybe towards healing may be in a way to be able to provide better more efficient stress responses in the future. Maybe in a way to protect the body from the damaging effects of stress hormones. We don't know but what's it's definitely happening. Is that the need to respond to a very big traumatic experience and the resulting symptoms can cause a recalibration gratien of the stress hormone system very interesting. It's almost like insulin sensitivity. I never actually actually thought of that but it is very much like that. Yeah Rachel so you've mentioned it earlier Mount Sinai and you've been at the ICAHN school of medicine there since I think Lewis Thoroughly Ninety Sir close to them to ninety one yen ninety one so what what brought you to Mount Sinai. It's it's it's a pretty amazing place. What brought you there? I I would like to say lock in good fortune But the real story is that I was a post doc at Yale and I I was Presenting some of our early workout poster at the American Psychiatric Institute and a wonderful psychiatrist by the name of Larry Receiver came up to my poster and wondered if I would be interested in coming to Mount Sinai. I think because I think really was because of my laboratory skills gals and he arranged visit for me to come to Mount Sinai and I met some people there and they offered me a position and I said yes so shortly after you arrived at Mount Sinai you became the founder and director of the division of traumatic stress studies at that Kosolapov. Can you give us an overview of the program and the.
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on STEM-Talk
"That that probably was not gonNa tell me much when I spoke to one person at Yale about that he said well who does that work and I said well no one does that work. I I have to learn how to figure out how to do that. And I felt so empowered by my platelet motto Marine accidents experienced by could figure out measure platelets Thi- could figure out how to measure lymphocytes receptors. And he said well if no one's doing it probably means that it's not worth doing and Yeah so you you know you can get a lot of that as an early scientist and so one of the reasons that I sometimes do. I talk about that. Is that when you're early. Career scientist is important to listen to people's advice but it is also important to follow your drumbeat. I guess because I actually thought it was a great eight idea to look at lymphocytes my reasoning was that even though the brain receptors would be a lot better the adrenals are actually not in the grain. Rain urinals are in free and so if cortisol was having ubiquitous effects on lot of cells in the body than I wouldn't learn absolutely nothing. Nothing by looking at blood cell and then in time we could figure out how to look at the relationship between what you can see in blood cells and brain cells using animal all models. So that's in fact what we ended up doing. Your daughter was clearly correct about you marching to the beat of your own drum and benefiting from it in many anyways I guess you're wise. Daughter is daughter so Rachel even talking about this paradox when you were doing in this research with Dr Giller and looking at veterans PTSD who had low cortisol levels and how this eventually leads you to starting to interview and work with Holocaust survivors NEAR HOMETOWN OF CLEVELAND. Blend and this must have been a real seminal experience for you to have during your post doc but have to say I'm curious a we're we're curious here at some talk. How did you manage to get Holocaust? Survivors I open up and talk to you in the first place. Well Y- yeah that's a really good question. And this is Why I went to Cleveland? I went back to my hometown where I was known my family was known and I think people wealth really Holocaust all crossovers who are more likely to at least listen to what you have to say if they know who you are on my also recruited the help of some people in Cleveland Some that I grew up with chilies woman who I believe is now doctor. Zimmerman who I went to school was in who also helped me. Identify Holocaust Survivors House. Oh Dr Boas Kahane who is a sociologist. Studying Holocaust survivors. So I did have to form a team and get some buy in from hull. KOSPI'S IT wasn't easy to explain to Holocaust survivors. What I wanted to do? And why in the beginning. I was trying to explain that we had been studying. Vietnam the veterans with PTSD. And I was there to see if they were similar to Vietnam veterans and honestly. I couldn't even get that sentence sentence out without people saying to make nowhere. Nothing like Vietnam veterans. They had guns and we were victims. It was really a very long process for me. You to have a dialogue with Holocaust survivors. About what it would mean to be studied and what it would mean to kind of talk about their experiences and to allow our team to kind of look at them and I. I learned a lot about that experience. You know when you do scientific Gorkhas laboratory animals. You're not really asking your laboratory animals. How they feel about anything? You're doing and the idea of thinking about how people feel about the questions that you're asking and what you WANNA do. And why and how they're gonNA use the information and whether or not they can trust you and whether or not you're trustworthy and what are you going to do. Do with the information and with their stories it was a very profound experience for me to be able to get in the community and To understand what it even means means to get the trust of trauma survivors with their story. I listen to an interview. Did where you told a story about. Talking to a group of Holocaust survivors. When a woman came up to you? You and said you know Dr Yehuda. We don't have the. Va like your veterans do. Can you share that story with us. And then what happened next. Yeah that was a very powerful story. Sorry I'm actually that women told that to me in the context of a private conversation that we'd had with actually an evaluation when when it was so clear that this woman had suffered for such a long time with so many post traumatic stress symptoms yet. She had never sought treatment from a mental health professional and. I just asked her about that. I said I just don't understand. You've had such serious depression. Why didn't you go to anyone for help? And she said who would understand what we have and it's not as if there's any way for us to go it's not like he veterans that have the va and when she said yeah to me. It was one of those moments when I knew that I had to create some kind of space for Holocaust survivors to be able to access excess therapy and in fact when I came to Mount Sinai which was later and I interviewed for a job there. I discussed Dan attention with the chairman. who was thinking about hiring me? And he was actually so supportive of the idea of Dr. Ken Davis and it was a really important thing that I wanted to do. I wasn't sure at that time I would be able to do it but we ended up doing it and it just really ring in my head as something that I should try tried to do that. program seems like an important thing for you to engage in. is the program still running. And what does it look like now. The program ran for twelve years. It was a moment in it was a moment in time you to the program started fifty well after fifty years after World War Two and was happening just as a Holocaust survivors were aging and things were a little different for them. Very few had sought treatment before the program consisted of a group therapy program. They had the opportunity to come and talk to other survivors in a group setting and interestingly this this was the program that also put put me in touch with the idea that children of Holocaust survivors are also treatment seeking for reasons that they say have to do with the Holocaust. Mr Being raised by Holocaust survivors or or being raised in the shadow of the Holocaust so the clinic ended up catering to Holocaust survivors and the children. So in Twenty Sixteen you publish the results of a study looking at the genes of thirty two Jewish women and men and you and your colleagues at Mount Sinai studied Holocaust survivors who either have been turned in Nazi concentration camps during World War Two or had witnessed or experienced torture and you also looked at the genes at twenty two children children who were born to the Holocaust survivors after war. Can you talk about this study. And then also how changes in the DNA of Holocaust survivors were passed onto their offspring. Okay so a few little corrections there yet we certainly published the study which steadier talking about but we only looked at one region of one gene. It is a stress related gene. It's called F K B P Five but we didn't look at multiple genes we went into the region that other studies including getting some of our prior work had already shown was associated with a vulnerability. PTSD or child trauma or for depression and so we were very clear why we were looking where we were looking. So we measured in Epi genetic mark in both the parents and the children and what we found was that the Holocaust survivor parents and their own children had an EPI genetic alteration and the exact that same region of that stress related gene. Now what did I make of that. Finding did I think that the DNA of Kassir by was was passed to their offspring. Well I can't exactly say it. In those words. What was very interesting was to find a similar change? But we don't really know sitting here today how that change got there but it was still well a very interesting phenomenon to observe that the adult children of Holocaust survivors had an EPI genetic alteration that seemed to be associated with the fact back their parents had survived the Holocaust so on that note when we talk about mechanisms of how effects get from one place to another or from the experience of one generation into the biology of another. I understand that you believe. We need to be cautious because we don't have the human studies yet that can truly pinpoint what's happening. Can you talk a little bit about that. Yes us we Certainly have mechanisms from animal studies and some hints from some Human Studies. Not the ones that I did that. There are a lot of possible ways days that a traumatic event and apparent were trauma exposure. An apparent could leave a mark on their offspring. There are a lot of potential ways that could had occur one way is because the trauma in the parent changes the parents behavior. Another way it could occur is because the trauma could could be encoded in the germ cells and in sperm or egg. There could be an utera effect so there are a lot of potential mechanisms that can be examined. But when you just take a blood cell from an adult whose parents survived a trauma. You just can't reconstruct all of that so so what happens in sciences. You can't tell the whole story in one paper you tell a story over the course of a career or over the course of a a lot of little units you know. It's I like to think of the stories that we've told the science that we've generated as a string of pearls into not a diamond solitaire Taylor and so a lot of times. People want a lot of answers from one study and you can't get it from one study What you can do is get a signal? You could generate excitement. You can get the field to say while if that were true. What would that mean? Can we replicate it. Is it interesting the way that I looked at the low cortisol cortisol. Is it true. Can I replicate it. If so what does it mean and you don't have to be upset about having an initial observation in a a small number of people duct Mason Dr Gillard published their low cortisol study in nine combat veterans with PTSD. So it's easy to criticize a pilot study but the purpose of the pilot study isn't isn't ticket if the whole story it's to begin. A conversation and signs is iterative process. Eventually the initial story will change over time and that's part of the excitement. I agree so I love being a scientist right..
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on STEM-Talk
"So when you enter graduate school you weren't sure you wanted to be a scientist or if you wanted to be a psychologist so you try to figure out if you could be both so what happened. Well I wanted to be the kind of psychologist who was a scientist. I just didn't really know that was thing yet but what happened. Was that in that particular school at that particular time. There wasn't the kind of synergy that would have been helpful. So for example in my first class in the clinical clinical psychology track. They were discussing the myth of mental illness. By Thomas is and just the idea of whether psychiatric disorders were social construct and I had already convinced myself. That disorders like schizophrenia and other mental conditions. That I was really interested in learning more about or biological agile in origin or should at least be approached from the perspective of trying to understand the biology and so it was just really two different hand at the time the U. Mass administrators were right. It was too overwhelming to try to do two separate curricula so I ended up just choosing. Sounds like a good good good answer and I like this. Is it true that your daughter reasonably said to you. You know you march to the beat of your drum. He never do anything other than what. The voice in your head tells. Let's you to do so. Do you think that's true. Well she didn't say something like that. It's not completely true. It's not that I only march to the beat of my drum. I'm but you know that trump is pretty loud but you know drums jusque. Just keep the beat and in order to really create music you also also have other instruments. You WanNa have lyrics so I think I listened a lot more to the environment and to other inputs. That comment suggests best but yes I think that in the end I do keep my drumbeat and I do Listen to it and I think that it's just about a balance of trusting in your own inner wisdom and your own voice and being able to have that voice be amenable to change from the outside environment so that you could create something larger untold that your first graduate advisor was not optimistic about you making it through. Is that correct act. Well that's certainly what he said on more than one occasion. What an encouraging fellow? Well I think if he said those things things he was probably saying them for my own good. I had got married in my first year of graduate school or after my first year of graduate school and a a lot of women who entered graduate school and then got married ended up leaving and maybe he thought I would do that. Also and although I was pretty good would at the aspects of graduate school that involved reading and synthesizing information and looking at data. I wasn't so good. Technically we were doing work with rodents Lintz and I was not having a good experience. Working with rodents particularly the part about having to kill them and it was very difficult for me and in graduate school. You don't really or certainly then. We tried not to show any weakness. So it's not like you could sit down and talk to someone and say you know I like everything but I can't I camp killing all these rodents. I mean we just had a suck it up and get through it so he he might have noticed some of that difficulty so and he may have been really focused focused on how difficult those technical things were for me. I understand in Grad School. A new faculty member also came along by the name of Bill Adele and you met him by chance and went out to him and said I want to do clinical research. So what was his response and what happened next year. I'm not sure by chance. I think the clinical psychology psychology department was trying to change and be more. Guess what we call. Evidence based and research oriented and Phil. Adele came from the university city of Wisconsin and he had just developed a scale that he fully could detect people who were prone to developing psychosis. Che's and so. He was using his scale to test undergraduates to see how they would do on the scale. And I I really found that really interesting and so I think I I saw him out and we ended up Talking and I told them about my interest in kind of the biology of psychiatric psychiatric phenomenon so we decided to work on a project together. Yes me of what I thought could be measured in these College students who scored differently on the psychosis proneness scale. So at the time was big in psychiatry was a measuring platelet mono amine oxidation sexuality in schizophrenia. Turn out not to be much of a thing but at the time. That's what was going on and he asked me do. I think I could figure out how out of measure that in platelets and I thought how I wonder and I ended up kind of doing this on my own time. He got a little grant for it and it was an enormous feeling of mastery to be able to just figure out how to measure platelets and measuring enzyme in platelets. And then getting the blood from these. He's college students that He found that were different on the scale and we ended up publishing paper on it. And I guess that's when I knew that I it didn't really have to work with rodents. You know that there was a whole lot of possibility out there if I just stuck with it. You started researching stress dress in graduate school in the eighties and at that time stress wasn't something that most academics paid much attention to what drew you to specifically typically focus on stress around then. Well I focused on stress because my adviser was focused on stress. Yeah I mean that's just the truth the vet and I think people were interested in stress. Stress was a very important emerging field. What I think my adviser Sir was trying to do that? was New was trying to understand Um stress effects in the brain and just this whole idea that there were stress hormone receptors receptors in the brain was extremely fascinating because it meant that something that really begins in the body and the ADRENAL glands has real repercussions appearance for what happens in the brain and the particular study that we decided I would do which was not my idea was my visors. was about what happens. Happens when you manipulate stress hormones in early development so the work intellectually was extremely interesting and this idea that we are so affected affected by the things that happen to us and that development in particular is a very critical period for really setting the stage. For how our bodies and our brain's going to function in the future this really great. That part was great so Rachel after getting your degree from Umass Amherst you headed off for your post doctoral all work and biological psychiatry at Yale Medical School and at Yale you met Dr Earl Giller he became your mentor and was also one of the early researchers into post traumatic stress disorder. He and his colleagues had just completed an important study of Vietnam veterans showing low cortisol levels. So I can you tell us about what took you to Yale Medical School in the first place and then can you tell us a little bit more more about the study with Vietnam veterans and also your time with Dr Giller. What actually happened was that I got pregnant before I wrote my dissertation so I had to leave and start living with my husband and it took me a long time to write my dissertation? And in the Interim Bill Adele had moved to yell and he hired me to work part time for him as an evaluation specialist two psych evaluations for children with psychiatric disorder. And then I heard about a post doc opening and it just so happened that URL Giller had been one of the people that had spearheaded. The Platelet Mayo Mayo Staff and personality and psychosis. That's how I ended up in that lab when I found out that they were doing post traumatic stress disorder and cortisol than I thought. Oh my goodness this is a match made in heaven because I knew a lot about cortisol and stress but when I had to leak read the work that they had done and found that the cortisol levels were low. That really did not make very much sense to me because everyone knew that stress is associated with elevated Cortisol levels and even major depression impression at that time had already been studied and found to be associated with elevated cortisol levels. So really was paradox. How could you say on the one hand? And that there are people who are exposed to chronic stress or who still suffer from the effects of a stressor that occurred long ago and then also also show that they have low according to levels and the other part of the study. That was so interesting. was that Dr Giller at his colleague. Dr Dr John Mason also found that from the same urine samples that they had measured the cortisol levels. They found that Adrenalin or norepinephrine levels levels were elevated so that was true paradox. How can the same? Sam volk contain evidence of activation in terms of increased sympathetic nervous system activity on the one hand but dampened activity of the Hypothalamus ADRENAL access or as evidenced by Cortisol. Aw So so fascinating and for your post doc at Yale you want it to look into the biology of personality which wasn't really a thing back in the eighties and actually i. I understand that you were told. It was a dumb idea for post doc research. So what happened well Initially when I met Dr Giller I thought ooh boy I can continue. The work started in graduate school about psychosis proneness. And maybe if there's a biology that can give you an index into people who might become schizophrenic in the future may be there is also a biology of personality now. Dr Gillard didn't think that that was a bad idea idea but he had moved on now and he was studying post traumatic stress disorder. And Cortisol what I wanted to do was look at glucocorticoid receptors drizzle lymphocytes again Dr Giller and Dr Mason were encouraging. But when I spoke to other people a lot of people told me that they thought that was a bad idea because in those days people didn't have a lot of confidence in what anything in a blood cell would tell you about how the brain works and so my my idea was to try to replicate the cortisol findings. I wasn't sure that I would but I wanted to see if cortisol levels were similarly talk low in other trauma survivors and if it were to try to understand why cortisol levels would be low in a stress disorder and the idea that that I had at the time was that maybe it had something to do with the cortisol receptors or glucocorticoid receptors. And and since I couldn't measure them in the brain I was wondering if I could possibly measure them in blood cells like lymphocytes and a lot of people that I spoke to about that that.
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on STEM-Talk
"Welcome to stem talk stem stem talk. Welcome to stem talk for introduce you to fascinating people who passionately. We inhabit the scientific and technical frontiers of our society. Hi I'm your host on Connecticut and joining me to introduce today's podcast man behind the curtain. Dr Ken Ford Agency's Agency's director and chairman of the Double Secret Selection Committee that selects all the guests who parents some talk. Hi Don great to be here. Sorry guest today is Dr Rachel Yehuda who is a professor of psychiatry and neuroscience and is the director of the Traumatic Stress Studies Vision at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City and also the director of the mental health patient. Care Center the James J Peters. Va Medical Center rituals. A recognized leader in the field of traumatic stress studies particularly post traumatic stress disorder. She has worked with war. Veterans Holocaust survivors in other victims of trauma detail the biological consequences of PTSD her research on Cortisol and brain function has revolutionized our understanding and treatment of PTSD worldwide. Rachel's also numbers that he's on the intergenerational transmission of trauma and PTSD. But before we get to you. Today's interview with Rachel we have some housekeeping to take care of. I we really appreciate all of you who have subscribed to stem talk and we are especially appreciative of all the wonderful five-star reviews as always always double secret selection committee has been continually carefully reviewing I tunes Google stitcher and other podcasts APPs for the wittiest most lavishly praised filled reviews to read on stem talk as always always if you hear your view on talk just contact us at some talk at I h Mc us to claim your officials stem talk t shirt. Today our winning review was posted by. I someone who goes by the moniker. D- Jude's forty four the reviews titled Starting Gate. It reads finding your site with its non commercialized. Information Formation has begun a new chapter of Healthier Living at seventy four years old Modified Kito and time restricted. Eating equals pain-free mobility. Thank you thank you so much. Jude's forty four and thank you to all of our other stem talk. Listeners have helped some talk become such a great success. Okay and now unto today's as interview with Dr Rachel Yehuda Stems stem stem. Talk High welcomed US some talk. I'm your host on Canada's and joining us today as Rachel Yehuda Rachel welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much and also joining us is Ken. Ford Don and Helu Blue Rachel. Hello so Rachel you grew up in Cleveland and I understand that you have sometimes described herself as quote unquote. Not One of the cool kids other than being uncall- I'm cool. What were you like as a kid? What was I like? I was pretty serious. I think I like to listen to adults. I think I was nice and sensitive I. I was obedient. But with the caveat that to get me to do anything you had to give me an explanation for why you wanted to do it. My mother used to say she would say they go to sleep and from a very early age I would say why she would have to say so. You won't be tired but other than that. I think I was obedient and tried to do the right thing. I was a kid. You could depend on That's good by today's standards. That's definitely sound like your father was a rabbi and you. I grew up in an observant Jewish household. How did that experience shape you? Oh well I think shaped me. Very much My father was the Talmud scholar. Kinda rabbi not the pulpit. Rabbi so I think he taught me how to think and he taught me that it was okay to have an opinion opinion so I would come home from school and he would say what did you learn and I would try to remember something that I had heard that day and he would say okay. Now that you've told me what your teachers she church told you or what your teacher thinks. Now you can tell me what you learned. So I came to understand that what I'm supposed to be doing is really interacting with information and and making it my own and I think the study of Jewish texts particularly the Talmud really taught me that smart people could have fierce disagreements mints and look at the same set of facts in different ways and rival different conclusions and that was a terrific preparation for scientific career and career of Peer Review. And I think that just being observant in general Mian identity gave me a container structure grounding Amon. That's important for people who do a lot of thinking because you could get kind of lost in your thoughts and ungrounded by being observant. You know there were a lot of absolutes you know the Sabbath start sons sundown Friday. You know things like that so that kind of thing. No it's interesting. Yeah and at a young age you are very interested in philosophy and read books folks that were much above your age level but in the tenth grade. He became very interested in science because of a specific biology teacher. Do you remember that Teacher's name. And what was it about about that science class that so fascinated you yes. I will always remember that teacher's name her name was betty. New Stature says new stature and the class was is really about human biology and how our bodies work and I really was fascinated with every aspect. How food turns into energy? How how we breathe in oxygen we breathe out carbon dioxide so that we're constantly getting something from the world and giving something back and in that are very existent depends on are interacting with the world and how hormones control behavior and just how well thought out everything is you know the entrances this is in the exits and organic chemistry also? kind of makes you weep in how ordered and beautiful. It was so tenth grade. I just knew that science was for me it was great and I find it interesting. That a number of scientists that we've interviewed for stem talk also had a keen interest in philosophy like you did when they were younger and in fact Ken started out. How does a philosophy major before moving into computer science and AI? Some curious do you have an idea of why it could be that. So many successful scientists started and philosophy. Yeah I think so because when you're young you think that philosophy is going to give you the answers to the questions that you have about the world. I mean philosophy sophy love of knowledge rate and you think philosophy is going to be about. Why are we here? And what is our purpose. And how do we get here and what we're supposed to do. And when you start to actually truly read philosophy it's really more about how we might WANNA structure how we go about answering the questions rather than answering. Bring them and it's usually written in a pretty complex way so for me. You know there was a call to read philosophy and I did it for many years years as a teenager even starting pretty early fourteen but ultimately was that tenth grade moment when I realized that science biology might be amore concrete way of answering some of the questions that I had and until recently philosophers and scientists often coincided in the same body most most of the historical philosophers who were mathematicians and philosophers or scientists in philosophy. Yeah so Rachel. After highschool you headed off to tour college in New York. Why did you decide on psychology as a major after tenth grade biology? I guess I started to be very interested in how people think. Think and what makes people the way. They are from more of an emotional perspective. At the time which was in the late Seventies. It kind of seemed like psychology Adji and biology. We're GONNA be merging in a funny way. So I had already heard about molecules of the mind and dopamine receptors and I had worked in A psychiatric institute is volunteer. And so I was just beginning to be exposed to this idea that perhaps psychology and biology. Were you're going to be very much traveling together. And biology didn't seem like it was interested in understanding emotions and psychology apology and mental illness but I just chose psychology because I have make a choice. After you attended Taurel College in York you you then went to the University of Massachusetts at Amherst A. What was the primary attraction of Umass while there were many but I I think one of the things that they told me was that if I could handle a dual curriculum of both being in what they had called their physiological psychology department and their clinical psychology psychology department? They wouldn't stand in my way and I had done touro college in two years. I thought this was going to be no problem at all so it was the only school that offered me this possibility. I think that they did not intend for me to have folks decree that. I don't think that they thought it would be a handle both curriculums but they didn't try to stop me so that was a.
Can we inherit trauma from our ancestors?
"We have Andrew Curry. He's a journalist based in Berlin and this week he wrote on inherited trauma. I Andrew Okay so this is about be genetics. It's been around a long time but it's kind of morphing in its definition. Can you give us the latest on that different. People mean different things when they talk about epigenetics with the the basic concept is there are ways in which organisms inherit traits that are maybe not genetic so we have DNA the strict genetic code but increasingly scientists are finding other ways in which traits are passed down through generations and they're trying to figure out what the exact mechanisms are and some organisms. It's really easy and the more complicated the organism that trickier it is figure out how these things are passed on outside of the genetic code <hes> so for example some of the EPA genetic mechanisms might involve modifications to DNA or it might be a different set of molecules altogether that are being inherited through the cells that make up the offspring yes so so it's all modifications a two D. N. A. in the thorough lots of different kinds of proteins in the cell that help when the D._n._a. is telling the cell what proteins to make how to develop and their different ways that these small proteins can signal signal the cell to read more or less off of the genetic code or can turn off gene so to speak so that certain traits aren't passed on or certain traits are passed on in amplified ways. You know it's not something that's in the the D._N._A.. itself it's more things that affect how the cell reads the D._N._A.. Right at the very moment that the cell I divides now that's one of millions of subsequent divisions. If you have a tiny impact after the very beginning right it can have a massive consequence down the loan. Let's talk about when epigenetics this different form of inheritance. I got linked to the idea of trauma. What are some of the early examples of those lakes people started looking at how the environment chain diet exposure to extreme colds or exposure to high level of chemicals could affect what was inherited and then probably about fifteen twenty years ago some researchers? Started looking or noticing other effects during experiments and one researcher in particular who I spoke with Isabelle Swing. She's at the University of Zurich and E.. T. H.. Eric created a mouse model because she wanted to study borderline personality personality disorder and so she was traumatizing baby mice by separating them from their mother at unpredictable intervals and then she noticed that the offspring of those baby mice often hadn't same behavioral symptoms of trauma that the parents Prince two and sometimes those behavioral symptoms went on for several generations. The idea here is that it's not just physical deprivation of food or exposure to a lot of coal. It's there's something about the psychology or you know emotional states of the the mice that are being passed down the ideas that the stress of trauma the stress of being separated from from your parents the stress of traumatic childhood you could be with your parents. Your parents could be neglectful. Those levels of stress caused chemical changes in your body that then affect how your d._n._A. is encoded and that those changes can be so powerful. They're passed on even to your offspring that didn't directly experience trauma right so this this researcher that you mentioned she has looked at this for generations and generations of mice she does some experiments where she's gone out five generations and she still sees behavior in the offspring of traumatize mice that she doesn't see see in control mice and that's even when she does the separation but then like the children are the children of the children have been exposed to separation from a parent. This is kind of the crux of the the question that's that was a challenge challenge for her in terms of the experimental design and it's been one of the main criticisms when people look at humans is really hard to separate what is EPA genetic trauma what is sort of biologically transmitted and what is just the stress yes of living with a parent that has been traumatised because your parents are that are part of your environment so these kids environmental effects exactly so how she the way she controlled for that is she only studied the mail so she would traumatize is male mice and then breed them with females but take the males out but the females the mothers of the subsequent generations hadn't been traumatized so there was no bad parenting so to speak and yet she still found differences teams in the mouth behavior so this is all behaviors you can you know judge based on that that something is being inherited but the biological mechanism is is still is still pretty far away from being understood in mice and in other organisms they've also so found changes in sperm and blood and other tissues of things called small non coding Arnaiz which are these things that help the body re- D._N._A.. And this small all non coding are in a in a traumatized mouse or David looked at traumatize. People is different in specific ways than in non traumatize people okay so there is some and those those are passed down subsequent generations yet outing sees changes in the Arnaiz later as well. The big question is how does it get from for example the blood of the parent to the sperm of the child and later than to the brain of child let alone. Alone the child's child that sort of that whole middle bit is what is still really unclear. Let's turn to the human here for a minute. One of the first places this was talked about was with respect to the Holocaust so can you talk about what what the research has shown with respect to Holocaust survivors a few years ago a researcher named Rachel Yehuda looked at the children of Holocaust survivors and found that they had higher levels of depression but also lower levels of specific stress hormones and different kinds of EPA genetic markers called D._N._a.. methylation than people whose parents had been born in the U._S.. <hes> from sort of similar ages in cohorts and argued that this could be evidence of EPA genetic trauma but that study was criticized at the time for the reasons that that I mentioned earlier you know a lot of people said well. It makes sense intuitively that if your parents survived the Holocaust they might behave differently at home that might be stressful in a different way and so that is solid enough evidence of this biological mechanism that they found in mice. There is an ongoing project that you talked about with <hes> children in an orphanage. How are they looking at that situation and asking questions about EPI genetic inheritance? It's really hard in humans to do ethical L. experiments over multiple generations so basically what they're doing right now is looking at humans who have been traumatized to see if they have changes in these EPA genetic marks and then using those to design mouse studies to understand how that might be carried across multiple generations and in the Pakistan example. This is now orphanage. This is the orphanage in Pakistan so a researcher WHO's part of Isabel Might Matsui's lab is working with orphans in Pakistan whose fathers have died and they were forcibly separated from their mothers because their mothers weren't able to earn enough money to support them and they're put in orphanages which they argue is fairly close to their mouse model that had how they're separated from the mother as children and they see different levels of these are in these kids blood and they're using those kids as sort of a starting point to then design better mouse experiments to understand how that it might be transmitted through different generations but to do a human experiment you would have to look at those kids kids and follow refer multiple generations and so for a whole range of reasons. It's extremely difficult coulter controlled intervention experiments in humans right. We should point out that the children in the orphanage are there's an intention from the people taking care of them to make sure that they're not traumatized. Yeah I mean this is a situation. The already happened this was not they didn't separate them from their mothers for the purpose of the experiment of course and they're being given great care they go to the same schools. This is actually another interesting part of the experiment they go to the same schools as local kids. It's who still live with their parents so they're also looking at the local kids who still live with their parents to see if there are differences and it's voluntary. These kids get good care New York's fridges by there still something about this experience that they. I went through that is really difficult seems to have biological backs. I WanNa ask you what it means what we should do about it but I feel that the really big question you know it's it's a great question. <hes> <hes> I think one of the most hopeful things to come out of the story for me was again something that seems sort of intuitive but has been lost a lot in the discussion of epigenetics because I think a lot of people here this idea that Oh my my grandparents parents were traumatized and therefore have this unavoidable legacy of pain right but there have been some early experiments again in mice where if you intervene with basically sort of happy cages they call them enriched environments governments. You can reverse this biological process. Yeah we actually had I think we had a segment on happiness in in mice and rats and how giving them things to do and making them comfortable in their environment can yeah it can change the way experiments turn out yeah and so one of the arguments that several the researchers made is rather than looking at this as a sort of a stigma and a mark we should maybe you know if we can identify by these things use them to identify people who will benefit from therapy or maybe we should just this is where it's sort of intuitive. Maybe we should just give all children in which are yeah and that this is not <hes> an unavoidable burden but something that we can look at as reversible and that we should be looking at it as reversible not something that we should be working towards. Thank you so much Andrew Thank you Andrew. Curry is a journalist based in Berlin Orlando. You can find a link to his future at science mag dot org slash
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on KQED Radio
"Go. So give it up for radio app producer. Molly web. And give it up. When you said earlier that a lot of people in the audience had a strong reactions usually I mean I don't know if you could. But when we were doing that story, I definitely like something's going on out there. Because we were on stage. I couldn't twenty definitely tuning in. There's something going on in the something going on. But I didn't really know what it was. We were in the middle of it, walk off stage. And the first thing we hear is that numerous people had fainted, even femme it'd during that piece we were like what seriously. I did not see coming. We were really scared at first, and I thought, oh my God. Mike and Mike killing. Like it was like were, they old were they young, why were young young and that maybe like, okay, they feel weirdly a little bit better. Maybe they can handle it. Yeah, I just was. And then I was kind of weirdly mortified terrified, but after we figured out that no one was hurt. We were like we got we were like we would would you start putting up we started making some calls. What was that? What do we make of that? I didn't know you with the show is over. We all go home days after this. You're thinking, oh my God. We're gonna because I'm thinking, we've got a podcast this damn thing. Right. We have to we have to understand this completely. Right. So I I we called was a psychiatrist. Rachel Yehuda medicine department of psychiatry explained the basic situation that some people had fainted and felt woozy white. You're any six people out of twenty two hundred somewhere between five and. Twelve we don't have a clear number just very interesting. Do you have any sense of what might have caused this? Just like a guess of my best. Guess about that would be that they have activated their personal Vetik nervous system. In response to hearing, the heartbeat. Just explain our nervous system is divided into a bunch of different parts. You've got your sympathetic nervous system, which is sort of your fighter flight. Right. What turns on when you're scared, and then you got your para sympathetic nervous system, which is sort of the opposite, rather than getting you ready to fight or run. It makes you come in. Doctor says it in certain people that faira, sympathetic response can actually kind of go overboard, and their blood pressure can drop quickly, too quickly, and they end up fainting. Now, the most common. Give me list for this to happen in, in real life is side of blood. Some people just do that. And it's not that comment about two to four percent of the population has kind of response. And we don't exactly know why it happened. There is some opinion that the idea of fainting when you see flood is an adaptive evolutionary respond that, you know, maybe back in the day when we're being chased by predators. It would have been a good idea to faint, maybe the animal think you're dead ill skip you. He wants live meat and you're dead meets exactly. Sees you lying there? He's like, I don't wanna eat that and other theory is this is also evolutionary one is that if your blood pressure drops, it does when you faint that kind of protects you little bit, because you'll have less blood in your arms and legs. So if your arms get bitten by a lion say, then you less likely to bleed out so there's nothing. There's nothing juicy the suck on. If you've. Blood is nodding your winger, your limb. Basically. I mean who knows these are just stories but going back to the two of four percent thing. We got to thinking two to four percent of our audience that night would be. What do we decide? Molly. Forty four eighty eight forty four to eight twenty two hundred so we put out some emails looked at the incident reports. And I think now we have identified what do we have for us? We've heard of maybe ten or eleven at this point, ten or eleven but I think that based on some of the stories that are coming in that the number might actually be much higher than that was, for example, just manifested itself physically in a way that I could not have imagined would be the case. This is Maria Chavez who actually works down the street from us for the company that makes Tino USA sitting in the front against one of the walls, but not right at the wall. She says she was listening to the story. Everything was fine at first, but then she says, as the beat kept going, she began to worry, what if it never stops? What if summer never gets away from it, and then the drumming got more intense. And it was just like, oh, no Ono, and it was definitely the sense of being trapped that the thing that was giving her life, which was absolutely necessary was also the thing that was tormenting her, and she says she was thinking about that. She just kinda got short of breath. And so I looked at my husband and put my hands up like like gotta go any. He looked at me. Sucker Hugh, right? I shook my hand like no. And then I had the talk in my brain, like okay, this is an intimate radio moment you are right in the front area. If you get up six people have to get up with you. What are you doing? You're ruining this everybody just breathe, and it'll be fine. And then the deeper, I tried to breathe the more anxious, I sort of got like, and I had this fantasy of like standing up and doing. Look to wiggle it out of me, but I was like that's. Suck it up. And so. Having trouble breathing. Just thinking about it. I don't wanna put you back there. No, no, no, no. I'm fine. I'm fine. That's hunches that there might be a lot more than ten because maybe a lot of people just of pushed through and didn't get up. It's still felt weird in any case, one of the most interesting things that we bumped into is that doctor who told us it's very possible that the fainting. Kind of an empty. Really in what sense. Well, if you hear somebody's heart beating and you're aware that, that what you're hearing, it might arouse a tremendous connection with the new of curing the very source of their life. Yeah. I became her I did. I just I was there with her really be a lot to take in, and you feel a little fainter emotional, I just identified so much with somebody being trapped in their own body, like she couldn't escape. It was beating my chest. The drums, I felt were beating my chest and in might crazy found to see, you know, maybe they were reading the same rhythm, one of the people that emailed after the live show said that he felt like his heart was trying to match her beat, and he couldn't catch his breath. I don't know. I haven't I don't know. It's never happened to me before. No. I in the end of ever want to hear summers heartbeat again. And she's a oh, yeah, she's got all these questions. Like, was that the acoustics of the space with the fact that she was with so many people or maybe it was volume 'cause it was pretty loud. And will I feel the same when I hear it with headphones on or while I'm driving? Will I have that feeling? So I had already decided that I was definitely gonna listen to it again. We'll let you know what happens. Gotta break so precaution provided all the music so far. They've just released an album called music for would in strings by Bryce desert of the national. This is what you're hearing. It's, it's kind.
"rachel yehuda" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM
"Give it up for radio that producer, Molly web. Give it up. When you said earlier that a lot of people in the audience had strong reactions. I don't know if you could this. But, like when we were doing that story, I definitely seemed like something's going on out there. Tell because we were on stage. I couldn't twenty definitely tuning in, there's something going on in the on going on stage but I didn't really know what it was. We were in the middle of it, walk off stage. And the first thing we hear is that numerous people had fainted even did during that piece we were like what seriously. I did not see coming. We were really scared. And I thought, oh my God. Mike in my killing people. Like it was just like I was like where they old, they young, why were young young in that maybe it's like, okay, they feel weirdly a little bit better. Maybe they can handle it. Yeah, I just was. And then I kind of weirdly mortified terrified, but after we figured out that no one was hurt. We were like we got, like, we would would you start putting up we started making some calls. Like, what was that? What we make that I didn't know you so the show is over. We all go home days after this. And you're thinking, oh my God. We're gonna cause I'm thinking we've got a podcast this damn thing. Right. We have to we have to understand this completely. Right. So the first person we called was a psychiatrist Rachel Yehuda now. Medicine department of psychiatry explained the basic situation that some people had fainted and felt woozy white. You're any six people out of twenty two hundred somewhere between five and twelve. We don't have a clear number just very interesting. Do you have any sense of what might have caused this just like a guess, best guess about that would be that they have activated their pathetic nervous system? In response to hearing, the heartbeat. Just explain our audit system is divided into a bunch of different parts. You've got your sympathetic nervous system, which is sort of your fighter flight, right? Swift turns on when you're scared, and then you've got your para sympathetic nervous system, which is sort of the opposite rather than getting you ready to fight run. It makes you come in. Dr utha says insert people that, para sympathetic response can actually kind of go overboard and their blood pressure can drop quickly, too quickly. And they end up fainting. The most common. Lists for this to happen in, in real life is faking side of blood people just do that. And not that comment about two to four percent of the population has kind of a response. And we don't exactly know why it happens. There is some opinion that the idea of fainting when you see blood is it an adaptive evolutionary response that, you know, maybe back in the day when we were being chased by predators. It would have been a good idea to faint, because maybe the animal think you're dead. He'll skip you. He wants live meat and you're dead meat. Exactly. Sees you lying there? And he's like, I don't wanna eat that. Another theory is also evolutionary. Is that if your blood pressure drops, like does when you faint kind of protects you little bit, because you'll have less blood in your arms and legs. So if your arms get bitten by a lion say, then you less likely to bleed out so there's nothing. There's nothing to suck on if you've blood his own wing, your limb, basically. I mean who knows these are just stories but going back to the two or four percent thing we got to thinking two to four percent of our audience that night would be. What do we decide? Molly. Forty four eighty eight. Forty four to eight twenty two hundred so we put out some emails looked at the incident reports. And I think now we have identified what do we? So for us, we've heard of maybe ten or eleven at this point, ten or eleven but I think that they some of the stories that are coming in that the number might actually be much higher than that. It was for example, just manifested itself physically in a way that I could not have imagined would be the case. This is Maria Chavez who actually works down the street from us for the company that makes Latino USA was sitting in the front against one of the walls, but not right at the wall. She says she was listening to the story. Everything was fine at first, but then she says, as the beat kept going, she began to worry, what if it never stops would have summer never gets away from it. And then the drumming got more intense, and it was just like, oh, no. Ono and it was definitely the sense of being trapped that the thing that was giving her life, which was absolutely necessary was also the thing that was tormenting her, and she says she was thinking about that. She just kinda got short of breath. And so I looked at my husband and put my hands up. Like, like I gotta go any, he hooked me sucker. You all right? Who's like I shook my head like. And, and then I had the talk in my brain, like okay, this is an intimate radio moment you are right in the front area. If you get up six people have to get up with you, what, are you doing? You're ruining this for everybody just breathe, and it'll be fine. And then the deeper, I tried to breathe the more anxious, I sort of got like, and I had this fantasy of like standing up and doing. Look to wiggle it out of me, but I was like. Suck it up. And so. I'm having trouble breathing. Just thinking about I don't wanna put you back there. No, no, no. I'm fine. I'm fine. That's hunches at there might be a lot more than ten because maybe a lot of people just sort of pushed through and didn't get up. It's still weird in any case, one of the most interesting things that we bumped into is that doctor who told us it's very possible that the fainting. Empathy spots. Really in what sense. Well, if you hear somebody's heart beating and you're aware that what you're hearing might arouse a tremendous connection within you of curing, the very source of their life. Yeah. I became her. I did. I just I was there with her, and it can really be taken, and you feel a little faint, or motions just identified so much with somebody being trapped in their own body, like she couldn't escape. It was beating my chest. The drums I felt were beating in my chest in my crazy fantasy. You know, maybe they were reading the same rhythm, one of the people that emailed after the live show said that he felt like his heart was trying to match her beat, and he couldn't catch his breath. I don't know. I, I don't know. It's never happened to me before now. In the end, if she'd ever want to hear summers heartbeat again. And she's oh yeah, because now she's got all these questions, like was it the acoustics of the space or the fact that she was with so many people or maybe it was the volume because it's pretty loud. And will I feel the same when I hear it with headphones on or you know, while I'm driving? Will I have that feeling? So I had already decided that I was definitely gonna listen to it again. We'll let you know what happens..